From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Thu Dec  1 03:35:49 2005
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Thu,  1 Dec 2005 08:35:49 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] two toots
In-Reply-To: <17F5499D-88CA-498C-A261-01B8049C3BAC@mac.com>
References: <064C384C-3483-495F-BAC7-11482F90BFC3@mac.com>
	<007f01c5f60e$64812f10$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<17F5499D-88CA-498C-A261-01B8049C3BAC@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1133426149.438eb5e533062@webmail.ukonline.net>


Mike

Yes, and please post at least your own translation of "Fusion" here!

Michael












----------------------------------------------
This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 08:33:36 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:33:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
In-Reply-To: <438E70EB.5050202@ilstu.edu>
References: <438E70EB.5050202@ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512010533s53c07e38v9a49a27891b453b6@mail.gmail.com>

Well said.  I've tried often to put my finger on what it is I so admire
about Whitman's voice.  The speaker is so expansive, so humble and arrogant
all at the same time.  Maybe what saves him from pure arrogance is his
empathy, not just the way he projects himself into other lives, but also the
way he portrays those lives--the emotions, the deeply-felt life experiences.

Thanks again, Gabe.

Jeff Newberry


On 11/30/05, Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:
>
> Never I think has a thought been expressed that is at once so banal and
> profound as this: WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. It is a truism deeply
> concrete in its factuality and yet nearly completely useless as an
> account of reality -- for it is a truth that is very hard to realize.
> (The utterance of this phrase in boisterous company is sometimes
> followed by a string of exclamation points and the unproductive
> ejaculation "Aaaaghghg!" That is to say, it is a truth that is so beyond
> us that it often works best as a joke.)
>
> I assert that death is a class of destruction. No great news there. But
> I want to add that death, though a rather complete and maybe even "no
> nonsense" kind of destruction, is at heart a comic sort of destruction.
> And I think Whitman, though not himself a comic writer, knew this. Let
> me explain.
>
> Comic destruction is never merely destructive; it has a levity to it, as
> if it will be followed by an improving and restorative force. Death to
> me is like this. Cartoons, also, are like this: If Wylie Coyote is
> crushed by a boulder, he comes back flattened for some time but
> eventually is restored fully to a two dimensional approximation of a
> three dimensional being (instead of a two dimensional approximation of a
> two dimensional being which he was while he was flattened and walking
> around like a wafer with legs, not necessary for me to go on like this).
>
> My point is I have had glimpses of my death when I have been able to
> achieve a calmness in meditation via the complete surrender to (and
> awareness of) what is in me, namely: jillions of little explosions,
> pin-sized gusts of warmth, tiny sciroccos of jiggling electrical clouds
> blowing here and there in my muscles -- a constant roistering of change
> manifest as a flickering constellation of tiny atom-sized explosions all
> throughout my musculature, and in my eyes combusting and wavering fields
> of colors roseate, cyan, saffron, rubiate, pucid, vernal ... these racks
> and sets of conflagrations all throughout my body as if I were a dim
> backboard thrust into a storm of light.
>
> And I strongly sense that death is merely the continuation of this
> conflagration without me (or with me in a different form). It's just a
> new stage of constant combustion and restoration. And as such it strikes
> me as fundamentally comic and joyous.
>
> All of which is to say I'm on this listserv called HUMPO where a bunch
> of poets interested in comedy are trying to figure out what kind of
> cultural work it is that comedy does. These poets and I remain confused
> (Maxine Chernoff, D A Powell, Ron Silliman, Ange Mlinko, Gary Sullivan,
> K. Silem Mohammad, George Bowering, Katie Degentesh, Rachel Loden, are
> there others?) though we manage to serve ourselves some nice moments of
> insight.
>
> Anyway, Rachel asked about "deadly serious" poets we happen to love. One
> of the poets I chose was Whitman. I absolutely love him.
>
> And though he is obviously not "funny," I suppose I would hesitate to
> label him deadly serious because his emotional mode is so buoyant, so
> full of gratitude, so joyous and welcoming and generous and big-spirited
> -- embracing, encompassing, hugging, welcoming -- that I do not think of
> him as "serious."
>
> But he is not "funny" either. He is not making jokes. Yet his spirit has
> something about it that shares deeply of a kind of unexpressed comedy.
>
> This harks back to something Maxine Chernoff said recently onlist about
> the affiliation between comedy and empathy: she said that comedy at its
> best is deeply empathic. To my sensibility this rings quite true, even
> in comedy's most violent and hectic forms (eg, Farce), there is a deep
> empathy with the simultaneity of the absurdity, joy, and pain that is
> our lot in this world. And Whitman is almost empathy personified. So
> though he is not funny, his empathy makes him a cousin to the comedian.
> Whitman's empathy is a cousin to the democratizing aspects of the comic
> mode at its best -- but without being "expressed" as comedy.
>
> There is an inclusiveness to Whitman's character that is consonant with
> that ideal inclusive society that all comedy (according to Northrop
> Frye) tends toward: a forgiveness of pain, suffering, and of those who
> caused, and keep causing, it.
>
> Most of the worst of what some folks call "serious" poetry just strikes
> me as whinging. Whinging about the fact that we suffer. I must say that
> many poets who have written from a mode of high seriousness (and I'm
> talking since like early 20c -- Pound, Eliot (not kitty cat Eliot)) do,
> I find, tend to strike me as melodramatic. Melodrama, as well all know,
> occurs when there's no real (or sufficient) rationale for the emotion;
> it seems outsized and inappropriate.
>
> And such is the case with the general palette of emotional responses
> used by many writers: We witness a bizarre collection of cultural
> responses to the suffering inherent to life as a body of knee-jerk
> emotive reactions: nostalgia, self-pity, country-western music. In fact,
> the older I get and the more used I become to the idea that I'm going to
> die, the more melodrama I keep spotting in art, movies, tv, and "alas"
> poetry.
>
> Most of it seems to be bemoaning suffering and whining. What I love
> however about Whitman is that he is not doing that; and neither is he
> cracking jokes.
>
> I think it is evident that he knew at a very deep experiential level
> (and not merely intellectually) -- and one can sense this in the
> comprehensiveness of his empathy -- that death comes to all of us. Not
> just to oneself.
>
> He is full of empathy. He is full of true gratitude, deep acceptance,
> and a deeply welcoming groove that makes me want to love him A LOT.
> There is something about the quality of his awareness that does not
> bemoan or whine. It is soft, welcoming, and deeply aware.
>
> It is admirable.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Dec  1 08:39:04 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:39:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] two toots
In-Reply-To: <1133426149.438eb5e533062@webmail.ukonline.net>
References: <064C384C-3483-495F-BAC7-11482F90BFC3@mac.com>
	<007f01c5f60e$64812f10$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<17F5499D-88CA-498C-A261-01B8049C3BAC@mac.com>
	<1133426149.438eb5e533062@webmail.ukonline.net>
Message-ID: <6173024.1133444344811.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, December 01, 2005, at 03:39AM, <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk> wrote:

>
>Mike
>
>Yes, and please post at least your own translation of "Fusion" here!
>
>Michael
>
>
Sure, Michael
I'll post the Spanish first, without special characters like n with tilde and the accents, so text-only mail won't puke:

Fusion 

Mi alma en torno a tu alma se ha hecho un nudo
       Apretado y sombr?o.

Cada vuelta del lazo sobrehumano
Se hace raiz, para afianzarse hondo,
Y es un abrazo inacabable y largo
Que ni la muerte rompera. No sientes
Como me nutro de tu misma sombra?
Mi raiz se ha trenzado a tus raices
Y cuando quieres desatar el nudo,
Sentiras que te duele en carne viva
Y que en mi herida brota sangre tuya!

Y con tus manos curar?s la llaga
Y ceniras mas apretado el nudo! 

--------------

It's a creepy little poem, good setup for a certain kind of horror movie, I think. I once spoke Spanish -- that's my BA, but I wanted a little help so I did a supposedly literal translation by a Dashboard Widget in Mac OS X 10.4.1. There are some pretty hilarious errors. I especially like "incapable" for "inacabable."

My core around your core has become Tight and shady a knot.

each return of the superhuman loop
 becomes a root, to hold fast  and deep,
 and is an incapable and long embrace
 that even  death will not break. You do not feel 
how I nourish myself of your same shade? 
My root has been braided to your roots
And when you want to untie the knot, 
You will feel that it hurts you in living flesh 
and that in my wound brings forth your blood!

And with your hands you will cure the sore
and you will fit tighter the knot


------------------
Tho original is free verse, I think -- it's certainly not hendecasyllables or any form I recognize. But I thought terza rima might fit it thematically, and Liz Henry (the editor) encourages multiple modes of translation, so --


Fusion
			after Juana de Ibarbourou


My Soul Entwined With Yours Into a Tight, Dark Knot

This more-than-human cord, with every coil
Rooted fast and deep, is an embrace
Forever unfulfilled that death won't foil.
Your shadow feeds me as my roots enlace
Themselves with yours;  surely you must know
That hunger and that we're one, that there's no trace
Of you or me ? that when you want to go,
To unravel that knot, your flesh will know my pain,
And from my wound your living blood will flow!

With your own hands you'll knit it back again,
And cure the wound, and wipe away the stain!



Still pretty creepy.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Dec  1 12:10:29 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:10:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0512010533s53c07e38v9a49a27891b453b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <438E70EB.5050202@ilstu.edu>
	<731bb17a0512010533s53c07e38v9a49a27891b453b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <438F2E85.9040002@ilstu.edu>

sure thing, mr newberry. he makes me so happy. :) -g

Jeff Newberry wrote:
> Well said.  I've tried often to put my finger on what it is I so admire 
> about Whitman's voice.  The speaker is so expansive, so humble and 
> arrogant all at the same time.  Maybe what saves him from pure arrogance 
> is his empathy, not just the way he projects himself into other lives, 
> but also the way he portrays those lives--the emotions, the deeply-felt 
> life experiences.
>  
> Thanks again, Gabe.
>  
> Jeff Newberry
> 
>  
> On 11/30/05, *Gabriel Gudding* <gmguddi at ilstu.edu 
> <mailto:gmguddi at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     Never I think has a thought been expressed that is at once so banal and
>     profound as this: WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. It is a truism deeply
>     concrete in its factuality and yet nearly completely useless as an
>     account of reality -- for it is a truth that is very hard to realize.
>     (The utterance of this phrase in boisterous company is sometimes
>     followed by a string of exclamation points and the unproductive
>     ejaculation "Aaaaghghg!" That is to say, it is a truth that is so beyond
>     us that it often works best as a joke.)
> 
>     I assert that death is a class of destruction. No great news there. But
>     I want to add that death, though a rather complete and maybe even "no
>     nonsense" kind of destruction, is at heart a comic sort of destruction.
>     And I think Whitman, though not himself a comic writer, knew this. Let
>     me explain.
> 
>     Comic destruction is never merely destructive; it has a levity to
>     it, as
>     if it will be followed by an improving and restorative force. Death to
>     me is like this. Cartoons, also, are like this: If Wylie Coyote is
>     crushed by a boulder, he comes back flattened for some time but
>     eventually is restored fully to a two dimensional approximation of a
>     three dimensional being (instead of a two dimensional approximation of a
>     two dimensional being which he was while he was flattened and walking
>     around like a wafer with legs, not necessary for me to go on like
>     this).
> 
>     My point is I have had glimpses of my death when I have been able to
>     achieve a calmness in meditation via the complete surrender to (and
>     awareness of) what is in me, namely: jillions of little explosions,
>     pin-sized gusts of warmth, tiny sciroccos of jiggling electrical clouds
>     blowing here and there in my muscles -- a constant roistering of change
>     manifest as a flickering constellation of tiny atom-sized explosions
>     all
>     throughout my musculature, and in my eyes combusting and wavering fields
>     of colors roseate, cyan, saffron, rubiate, pucid, vernal ... these racks
>     and sets of conflagrations all throughout my body as if I were a dim
>     backboard thrust into a storm of light.
> 
>     And I strongly sense that death is merely the continuation of this
>     conflagration without me (or with me in a different form). It's just a
>     new stage of constant combustion and restoration. And as such it
>     strikes
>     me as fundamentally comic and joyous.
> 
>     All of which is to say I'm on this listserv called HUMPO where a bunch
>     of poets interested in comedy are trying to figure out what kind of
>     cultural work it is that comedy does. These poets and I remain confused
>     (Maxine Chernoff, D A Powell, Ron Silliman, Ange Mlinko, Gary Sullivan,
>     K. Silem Mohammad, George Bowering, Katie Degentesh, Rachel Loden, are
>     there others?) though we manage to serve ourselves some nice moments of
>     insight.
> 
>     Anyway, Rachel asked about "deadly serious" poets we happen to love. One
>     of the poets I chose was Whitman. I absolutely love him.
> 
>     And though he is obviously not "funny," I suppose I would hesitate to
>     label him deadly serious because his emotional mode is so buoyant, so
>     full of gratitude, so joyous and welcoming and generous and big-spirited
>     -- embracing, encompassing, hugging, welcoming -- that I do not
>     think of
>     him as "serious."
> 
>     But he is not "funny" either. He is not making jokes. Yet his spirit has
>     something about it that shares deeply of a kind of unexpressed comedy.
> 
>     This harks back to something Maxine Chernoff said recently onlist about
>     the affiliation between comedy and empathy: she said that comedy at its
>     best is deeply empathic. To my sensibility this rings quite true, even
>     in comedy's most violent and hectic forms (eg, Farce), there is a deep
>     empathy with the simultaneity of the absurdity, joy, and pain that is
>     our lot in this world. And Whitman is almost empathy personified. So
>     though he is not funny, his empathy makes him a cousin to the comedian.
>     Whitman's empathy is a cousin to the democratizing aspects of the comic
>     mode at its best -- but without being "expressed" as comedy.
> 
>     There is an inclusiveness to Whitman's character that is consonant with
>     that ideal inclusive society that all comedy (according to Northrop
>     Frye) tends toward: a forgiveness of pain, suffering, and of those who
>     caused, and keep causing, it.
> 
>     Most of the worst of what some folks call "serious" poetry just strikes
>     me as whinging. Whinging about the fact that we suffer. I must say that
>     many poets who have written from a mode of high seriousness (and I'm
>     talking since like early 20c -- Pound, Eliot (not kitty cat Eliot)) do,
>     I find, tend to strike me as melodramatic. Melodrama, as well all know,
>     occurs when there's no real (or sufficient) rationale for the emotion;
>     it seems outsized and inappropriate.
> 
>     And such is the case with the general palette of emotional responses
>     used by many writers: We witness a bizarre collection of cultural
>     responses to the suffering inherent to life as a body of knee-jerk
>     emotive reactions: nostalgia, self-pity, country-western music. In fact,
>     the older I get and the more used I become to the idea that I'm
>     going to
>     die, the more melodrama I keep spotting in art, movies, tv, and "alas"
>     poetry.
> 
>     Most of it seems to be bemoaning suffering and whining. What I love
>     however about Whitman is that he is not doing that; and neither is he
>     cracking jokes.
> 
>     I think it is evident that he knew at a very deep experiential level
>     (and not merely intellectually) -- and one can sense this in the
>     comprehensiveness of his empathy -- that death comes to all of us. Not
>     just to oneself.
> 
>     He is full of empathy. He is full of true gratitude, deep acceptance,
>     and a deeply welcoming groove that makes me want to love him A LOT.
>     There is something about the quality of his awareness that does not
>     bemoan or whine. It is soft, welcoming, and deeply aware.
> 
>     It is admirable.
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>                                                    --Miguel de Unamuno
> 
> Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From tad at opus40.org  Thu Dec  1 12:41:53 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:41:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: An announcement
References: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJKEAACIAA.cc@opus0.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c5f69e$8483e830$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

I don't think anyone writes erotic fiction better than Lynda Schor.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Crisman Cooley" <cc at opus0.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: An announcement


> Why does all the fun stuff happen in NY?  Can we bring this show to San
> Miguel de Allende?
>
> Has anyone read these writers?  Have they learned to write erotic
> literature?  Wouldn't that be a gift to the world if they did?  Gabe G 
> once
> commented that what was needed to make poetry more popular was "titties"
> (well I don't recall the exact context...) --perhaps this venue serves?
>
>> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:51:49 -0500
>> From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] An announcement
>
>> Please join us for a selection of readings from Stirring Up A Storm:
>> Tales of the Sensual, the Sexual, and the Erotic.
>>
>>
>> Edited by Marilyn Jaye Lewis. Published by Thunder's Mouth Press
>>
>> When: Sunday, December 4th @ 7 PM
>> Where: KGB Bar Sunday Night Fiction, 85 E. 4th Street, NYC
>> What & Who: Selected readings from Stirring up A Storm with Lauren
>> Henderson, Lynda Schor, M.M. De Voe, and Rachel Kramer Bussel. Evening
>> introduced by Marilyn Jaye Lewis
>> How much: Admission Free!
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  1 12:49:09 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:49:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: An announcement
In-Reply-To: <002f01c5f69e$8483e830$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
References: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJKEAACIAA.cc@opus0.com>
	<002f01c5f69e$8483e830$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <2DAF70DB-8B19-43A7-9646-321944C7295E@earthlink.net>

I second that notion.

Hal

On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:41 PM, TheOldMole wrote:

> I don't think anyone writes erotic fiction better than Lynda Schor.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crisman Cooley" <cc at opus0.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:08 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: An announcement
>
>
>
>> Why does all the fun stuff happen in NY?  Can we bring this show  
>> to San
>> Miguel de Allende?
>>
>> Has anyone read these writers?  Have they learned to write erotic
>> literature?  Wouldn't that be a gift to the world if they did?   
>> Gabe G once
>> commented that what was needed to make poetry more popular was  
>> "titties"
>> (well I don't recall the exact context...) --perhaps this venue  
>> serves?
>>
>>
>>> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:51:49 -0500
>>> From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: [New-Poetry] An announcement
>>>
>>
>>
>>> Please join us for a selection of readings from Stirring Up A Storm:
>>> Tales of the Sensual, the Sexual, and the Erotic.
>>>
>>>
>>> Edited by Marilyn Jaye Lewis. Published by Thunder's Mouth Press
>>>
>>> When: Sunday, December 4th @ 7 PM
>>> Where: KGB Bar Sunday Night Fiction, 85 E. 4th Street, NYC
>>> What & Who: Selected readings from Stirring up A Storm with Lauren
>>> Henderson, Lynda Schor, M.M. De Voe, and Rachel Kramer Bussel.  
>>> Evening
>>> introduced by Marilyn Jaye Lewis
>>> How much: Admission Free!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

Hal

Today's Special

The Sonnet Project
http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec  1 17:49:39 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:49:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0512010533s53c07e38v9a49a27891b453b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFB4DA23.326C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Fascinating reflections on Whitman's empathy.  But:  "Deadly serious"?

I guess I'd say that Whitman is serious but not deadly.

Jarrell in his classic essay on Whitman makes the point that there is a lot
more comedy in Walt than he's usually given credit for.  I think I agree.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  2 08:40:35 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:40:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Clark Coolidge,
	"Down Too Many Barrels"
Message-ID: <83F524A1-D755-41F6-AB65-ABE32A12D1C4@earthlink.net>


Down Too Many Barrels

Those boys on the roof are just
waiting to fall through
but that bartender's kind of awkward
chairs full of young whiners and sod galoots
some other Jasper says I'm dull
eye like ball of scum
was that a liquid on the plate?
one churl set sail for New Bedford
but I've kept my Butane attitude
Butane Nevada that is
bottle full of oiled monkeys this is
there's an old saying: when the wine is done
you just have to finish it
makes sense to me a flush bunny
even down dark alleys of mirth
get your hooks off them potatoes
the town suffers from roundup
here come the miners minus dollars
want to be diners bright
as a dime on a cancelled stamp
but all these bellies are empty
as a star on a tom fool
and I'm sick of this dirtbank living
think I'll get me a sack
full up with bendable goods
one hand faster than a twisted dog
the other from cyclone load
but this sheriff's getting his sides mixed up
hey this card table smells like the sea
better ask Bill Hackleroad
he's in charge of the chloroform board
the jail's filling up with lead weights
Notion Boys hard as empty boxes
reach and go blind in this town
Robert Ryan can't see beneath
the cowboy stairs and what bodes
won't be long now

--Clark Coolidge

fr. Far Out West
[New York: Adventures in Poetry, 2001]



Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
            halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blogs:     http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
                http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com



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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 10:54:05 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 06:54:05 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Clark Coolidge,
	"Down Too Many Barrels"
In-Reply-To: <83F524A1-D755-41F6-AB65-ABE32A12D1C4@earthlink.net>
References: <83F524A1-D755-41F6-AB65-ABE32A12D1C4@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512020754v53cc4d67g68cb3f376510dc9b@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for posting this... I might have to take another look at more
of Coolidge's work. Most of it I've found incomprehensible.

c



From amparker at davidson.edu  Fri Dec  2 14:20:59 2005
From: amparker at davidson.edu (Parker, Alan Michael)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:20:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An invitation
Message-ID: <D23659BEC22CF0458BA76CAF0B83B5625366E6@bobroberts.davidson.edu>

On behalf of Tupelo Press, I would like to invite you to join
Laure-Anne-Bosselaar, Jennifer Michael Hecht, Andrew Hudgins, Jeffrey
Levine, Alan Michael Parker, Victoria Redel and Thom Ward this Tuesday,
December 6, from 7-9 p.m. at Poet's House (72 Spring St) to celebrate
the publication of The Imaginary Poets. Admission will be $7.

The Imaginary Poets includes work by twenty-two poets writing in the
voice of a new persona, a poet conceived entirely out of their own
imaginations. Each contributor was given the challenge of translating a
poem into English, offering a biography of the poet, and then writing a
short essay in which the poem, the poet, and the corpus are
considered-and asked to make up all of it. In response, poems
"translated" from eighteen languages appeared; they include works in
Dirja, Vietnamese, Yiddish, and even Egyptian hieroglyphs, poems that
may be read in the grand literary tradition of heteronyms and alter
egos.

The Imaginary Poets was edited by Alan Michael Parker. Contributors
include Aliki Barnstone as Eva Victoria Perera, Josh Bell as Saurah Joan
Mao, Laure-Anne Bosselaar as Anne-Maelle Mathieu, Martha Collins as Hoi
An, Annie Finch as Rose Elbow Souris, Judith Hall as J II, Barbara Hamby
as Gertrude of Brandenburg, Jennifer Michael Hecht as Kisaru Gashe,
Garrett Hongo as Casey Shigemitsu, Andrew Hudgins as Alan Lutiy, David
Kirby as Kevnor, Maxine Kumin as Greta Schoenemann-Licht, Khaled Mattawa
as Tafida Zeinhum, D.A. Powell as Joao Pudim, Kevin Prufer as Wen Bo,
Anna Rabinowitz as Hekenus, Victoria Redel as Tzadie Rackel, David St.
John as Jean-Phillipe Dariens, Mark Strand as Marin K., Thom Ward as Jan
DeKeerk, Rosanna Warren as Anne Verveine, and Eleanor Wilner as Irena
Zupanik.


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Dec  2 14:50:29 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:50:29 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [NarcissusWorks] Joel Weishaus
Message-ID: <005d01c5f779$a5dfac90$3eab3252@ANNY>




Received from Joel Weishaus and /surprised-grateful/ that he quotes my _Opening & Closing Numbers_ in his hypertext - one of the best Critiques I have ever read:

My first digital critique of a projected series is of David Budbill's "Moment to Moment," (Copper Canyon Press, 2000), including his new book, "While We've Still Got Feet." (Copper Canyon Press, 2005):

http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Critique/intro.htm


-Joel

__________________________________

Joel Weishaus
Research Faculty
Center for Excellence in Writing
Portland State University
Portland, Oregon

Homepage:
http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282
On-Line Archive:
www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/index.htm 

--
Posted by Anny Ballardini to NarcissusWorks at 12/02/2005 08:45:00 PM 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Dec  2 15:22:19 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:22:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs + Parker
Message-ID: <008901c5f77e$18824e20$3eab3252@ANNY>

Here is another Blog worth visiting:
TrassbMUTATION by kari edwards who is traveling in India:
http://transdada3.blogspot.com/


and compliments to Alan Michael Parker, what an impressive monumental idea!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From cc at opus0.com  Fri Dec  2 18:46:11 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:46:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
In-Reply-To: <200512011700.jB1H03Ht013749@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEBECIAA.cc@opus0.com>

I like this little essay Gabe ... I read your essay on solipsism in am lit
several years ago and liked it very much ... so I was not surprised to like
this piece.  It does seem a little odd to frame the discussion of Whitman on
humor.  I agree he isn't funny -- though I do laugh out loud at some of his
self-proclamations.  And I agree that his attitude toward death is key to
his poetic transcendance of suffering.  Right: there is no melodrama, and
yes, poetry is so full of articulate whining.  (Did you mean "whinging"? --
I'm away from my OED so I can't check if this is a typo:)  I love Plath and
she seems to be entering the pantheon -- she is among the best of the
whiners.  Eliot himself replied to those inquiring into the mysterious
meaning of Waste Land saying that it was his extended grousing (sorry don't
recall his word) about the day.  Whitman, besides being a great poet, was a
great man-- in his persona, at least, he attains and maintains a spiritual
greatness (levity?  enlightenment?) quite outside of his local ego.  I
disagree with Jeff N. ... I don't think Whitman is arrogant -- he was, I
think, claiming a territory on the page outside and beyond himself.  Blake
too.

Your piece also clarifies melodrama in a way that is useful to me in the
piece I'm working on.  I just wrote my ma apologizing because it isn't
funny-- that I thought I'd found a way to avoid gravity (L. Sterne's
identified 'defect of the mind') by turning for solace to beauty.  We shall
see.

toodaloo!



> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:41:31 -0600
> From: Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
>
> Never I think has a thought been expressed that is at once so banal and
> profound as this: WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. It is a truism deeply
> concrete in its factuality and yet nearly completely useless as an
> account of reality -- for it is a truth that is very hard to realize.
> (The utterance of this phrase in boisterous company is sometimes
> followed by a string of exclamation points and the unproductive
> ejaculation "Aaaaghghg!" That is to say, it is a truth that is so beyond
> us that it often works best as a joke.)
>
> I assert that death is a class of destruction. No great news there. But
> I want to add that death, though a rather complete and maybe even "no
> nonsense" kind of destruction, is at heart a comic sort of destruction.
> And I think Whitman, though not himself a comic writer, knew this. Let
> me explain.
>
> Comic destruction is never merely destructive; it has a levity to it, as
> if it will be followed by an improving and restorative force. Death to
> me is like this. Cartoons, also, are like this: If Wylie Coyote is
> crushed by a boulder, he comes back flattened for some time but
> eventually is restored fully to a two dimensional approximation of a
> three dimensional being (instead of a two dimensional approximation of a
> two dimensional being which he was while he was flattened and walking
> around like a wafer with legs, not necessary for me to go on like this).
>
> My point is I have had glimpses of my death when I have been able to
> achieve a calmness in meditation via the complete surrender to (and
> awareness of) what is in me, namely: jillions of little explosions,
> pin-sized gusts of warmth, tiny sciroccos of jiggling electrical clouds
> blowing here and there in my muscles -- a constant roistering of change
> manifest as a flickering constellation of tiny atom-sized explosions all
> throughout my musculature, and in my eyes combusting and wavering fields
> of colors roseate, cyan, saffron, rubiate, pucid, vernal ... these racks
> and sets of conflagrations all throughout my body as if I were a dim
> backboard thrust into a storm of light.
>
> And I strongly sense that death is merely the continuation of this
> conflagration without me (or with me in a different form). It's just a
> new stage of constant combustion and restoration. And as such it strikes
> me as fundamentally comic and joyous.
>
> All of which is to say I'm on this listserv called HUMPO where a bunch
> of poets interested in comedy are trying to figure out what kind of
> cultural work it is that comedy does. These poets and I remain confused
> (Maxine Chernoff, D A Powell, Ron Silliman, Ange Mlinko, Gary Sullivan,
> K. Silem Mohammad, George Bowering, Katie Degentesh, Rachel Loden, are
> there others?) though we manage to serve ourselves some nice moments of
> insight.
>
> Anyway, Rachel asked about "deadly serious" poets we happen to love. One
> of the poets I chose was Whitman. I absolutely love him.
>
> And though he is obviously not "funny," I suppose I would hesitate to
> label him deadly serious because his emotional mode is so buoyant, so
> full of gratitude, so joyous and welcoming and generous and big-spirited
> -- embracing, encompassing, hugging, welcoming -- that I do not think of
> him as "serious."
>
> But he is not "funny" either. He is not making jokes. Yet his spirit has
> something about it that shares deeply of a kind of unexpressed comedy.
>
> This harks back to something Maxine Chernoff said recently onlist about
> the affiliation between comedy and empathy: she said that comedy at its
> best is deeply empathic. To my sensibility this rings quite true, even
> in comedy's most violent and hectic forms (eg, Farce), there is a deep
> empathy with the simultaneity of the absurdity, joy, and pain that is
> our lot in this world. And Whitman is almost empathy personified. So
> though he is not funny, his empathy makes him a cousin to the comedian.
> Whitman's empathy is a cousin to the democratizing aspects of the comic
> mode at its best -- but without being "expressed" as comedy.
>
> There is an inclusiveness to Whitman's character that is consonant with
> that ideal inclusive society that all comedy (according to Northrop
> Frye) tends toward: a forgiveness of pain, suffering, and of those who
> caused, and keep causing, it.
>
> Most of the worst of what some folks call "serious" poetry just strikes
> me as whinging. Whinging about the fact that we suffer. I must say that
> many poets who have written from a mode of high seriousness (and I'm
> talking since like early 20c -- Pound, Eliot (not kitty cat Eliot)) do,
> I find, tend to strike me as melodramatic. Melodrama, as well all know,
> occurs when there's no real (or sufficient) rationale for the emotion;
> it seems outsized and inappropriate.
>
> And such is the case with the general palette of emotional responses
> used by many writers: We witness a bizarre collection of cultural
> responses to the suffering inherent to life as a body of knee-jerk
> emotive reactions: nostalgia, self-pity, country-western music. In fact,
> the older I get and the more used I become to the idea that I'm going to
> die, the more melodrama I keep spotting in art, movies, tv, and "alas"
> poetry.
>
> Most of it seems to be bemoaning suffering and whining. What I love
> however about Whitman is that he is not doing that; and neither is he
> cracking jokes.
>
> I think it is evident that he knew at a very deep experiential level
> (and not merely intellectually) -- and one can sense this in the
> comprehensiveness of his empathy -- that death comes to all of us. Not
> just to oneself.
>
> He is full of empathy. He is full of true gratitude, deep acceptance,
> and a deeply welcoming groove that makes me want to love him A LOT.
> There is something about the quality of his awareness that does not
> bemoan or whine. It is soft, welcoming, and deeply aware.
>
> It is admirable.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu,  1 Dec 2005 08:35:49 +0000
> From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] two toots
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>, Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
> Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <1133426149.438eb5e533062 at webmail.ukonline.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>
> Mike
>
> Yes, and please post at least your own translation of "Fusion" here!
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:33:36 -0500
> From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID:
> 	<731bb17a0512010533s53c07e38v9a49a27891b453b6 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Well said.  I've tried often to put my finger on what it is I so admire
> about Whitman's voice.  The speaker is so expansive, so humble
> and arrogant
> all at the same time.  Maybe what saves him from pure arrogance is his
> empathy, not just the way he projects himself into other lives,
> but also the
> way he portrays those lives--the emotions, the deeply-felt life
> experiences.
>
> Thanks again, Gabe.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> On 11/30/05, Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Never I think has a thought been expressed that is at once so banal and
> > profound as this: WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. It is a truism deeply
> > concrete in its factuality and yet nearly completely useless as an
> > account of reality -- for it is a truth that is very hard to realize.
> > (The utterance of this phrase in boisterous company is sometimes
> > followed by a string of exclamation points and the unproductive
> > ejaculation "Aaaaghghg!" That is to say, it is a truth that is so beyond
> > us that it often works best as a joke.)
> >
> > I assert that death is a class of destruction. No great news there. But
> > I want to add that death, though a rather complete and maybe even "no
> > nonsense" kind of destruction, is at heart a comic sort of destruction.
> > And I think Whitman, though not himself a comic writer, knew this. Let
> > me explain.
> >
> > Comic destruction is never merely destructive; it has a levity to it, as
> > if it will be followed by an improving and restorative force. Death to
> > me is like this. Cartoons, also, are like this: If Wylie Coyote is
> > crushed by a boulder, he comes back flattened for some time but
> > eventually is restored fully to a two dimensional approximation of a
> > three dimensional being (instead of a two dimensional approximation of a
> > two dimensional being which he was while he was flattened and walking
> > around like a wafer with legs, not necessary for me to go on like this).
> >
> > My point is I have had glimpses of my death when I have been able to
> > achieve a calmness in meditation via the complete surrender to (and
> > awareness of) what is in me, namely: jillions of little explosions,
> > pin-sized gusts of warmth, tiny sciroccos of jiggling electrical clouds
> > blowing here and there in my muscles -- a constant roistering of change
> > manifest as a flickering constellation of tiny atom-sized explosions all
> > throughout my musculature, and in my eyes combusting and wavering fields
> > of colors roseate, cyan, saffron, rubiate, pucid, vernal ... these racks
> > and sets of conflagrations all throughout my body as if I were a dim
> > backboard thrust into a storm of light.
> >
> > And I strongly sense that death is merely the continuation of this
> > conflagration without me (or with me in a different form). It's just a
> > new stage of constant combustion and restoration. And as such it strikes
> > me as fundamentally comic and joyous.
> >
> > All of which is to say I'm on this listserv called HUMPO where a bunch
> > of poets interested in comedy are trying to figure out what kind of
> > cultural work it is that comedy does. These poets and I remain confused
> > (Maxine Chernoff, D A Powell, Ron Silliman, Ange Mlinko, Gary Sullivan,
> > K. Silem Mohammad, George Bowering, Katie Degentesh, Rachel Loden, are
> > there others?) though we manage to serve ourselves some nice moments of
> > insight.
> >
> > Anyway, Rachel asked about "deadly serious" poets we happen to love. One
> > of the poets I chose was Whitman. I absolutely love him.
> >
> > And though he is obviously not "funny," I suppose I would hesitate to
> > label him deadly serious because his emotional mode is so buoyant, so
> > full of gratitude, so joyous and welcoming and generous and big-spirited
> > -- embracing, encompassing, hugging, welcoming -- that I do not think of
> > him as "serious."
> >
> > But he is not "funny" either. He is not making jokes. Yet his spirit has
> > something about it that shares deeply of a kind of unexpressed comedy.
> >
> > This harks back to something Maxine Chernoff said recently onlist about
> > the affiliation between comedy and empathy: she said that comedy at its
> > best is deeply empathic. To my sensibility this rings quite true, even
> > in comedy's most violent and hectic forms (eg, Farce), there is a deep
> > empathy with the simultaneity of the absurdity, joy, and pain that is
> > our lot in this world. And Whitman is almost empathy personified. So
> > though he is not funny, his empathy makes him a cousin to the comedian.
> > Whitman's empathy is a cousin to the democratizing aspects of the comic
> > mode at its best -- but without being "expressed" as comedy.
> >
> > There is an inclusiveness to Whitman's character that is consonant with
> > that ideal inclusive society that all comedy (according to Northrop
> > Frye) tends toward: a forgiveness of pain, suffering, and of those who
> > caused, and keep causing, it.
> >
> > Most of the worst of what some folks call "serious" poetry just strikes
> > me as whinging. Whinging about the fact that we suffer. I must say that
> > many poets who have written from a mode of high seriousness (and I'm
> > talking since like early 20c -- Pound, Eliot (not kitty cat Eliot)) do,
> > I find, tend to strike me as melodramatic. Melodrama, as well all know,
> > occurs when there's no real (or sufficient) rationale for the emotion;
> > it seems outsized and inappropriate.
> >
> > And such is the case with the general palette of emotional responses
> > used by many writers: We witness a bizarre collection of cultural
> > responses to the suffering inherent to life as a body of knee-jerk
> > emotive reactions: nostalgia, self-pity, country-western music. In fact,
> > the older I get and the more used I become to the idea that I'm going to
> > die, the more melodrama I keep spotting in art, movies, tv, and "alas"
> > poetry.
> >
> > Most of it seems to be bemoaning suffering and whining. What I love
> > however about Whitman is that he is not doing that; and neither is he
> > cracking jokes.
> >
> > I think it is evident that he knew at a very deep experiential level
> > (and not merely intellectually) -- and one can sense this in the
> > comprehensiveness of his empathy -- that death comes to all of us. Not
> > just to oneself.
> >
> > He is full of empathy. He is full of true gratitude, deep acceptance,
> > and a deeply welcoming groove that makes me want to love him A LOT.
> > There is something about the quality of his awareness that does not
> > bemoan or whine. It is soft, welcoming, and deeply aware.
> >
> > It is admirable.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>                                                    --Miguel de Unamuno
>
> Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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> 1991164/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:39:04 -0500
> From: Mike Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] two toots
> To: New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <6173024.1133444344811.JavaMail.mandolin at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>
> On Thursday, December 01, 2005, at 03:39AM,
> <m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >Yes, and please post at least your own translation of "Fusion" here!
> >
> >Michael
> >
> >
> Sure, Michael
> I'll post the Spanish first, without special characters like n
> with tilde and the accents, so text-only mail won't puke:
>
> Fusion
>
> Mi alma en torno a tu alma se ha hecho un nudo
>        Apretado y sombrmo.
>
> Cada vuelta del lazo sobrehumano
> Se hace raiz, para afianzarse hondo,
> Y es un abrazo inacabable y largo
> Que ni la muerte rompera. No sientes
> Como me nutro de tu misma sombra?
> Mi raiz se ha trenzado a tus raices
> Y cuando quieres desatar el nudo,
> Sentiras que te duele en carne viva
> Y que en mi herida brota sangre tuya!
>
> Y con tus manos curaras la llaga
> Y ceniras mas apretado el nudo!
>
> --------------
>
> It's a creepy little poem, good setup for a certain kind of
> horror movie, I think. I once spoke Spanish -- that's my BA, but
> I wanted a little help so I did a supposedly literal translation
> by a Dashboard Widget in Mac OS X 10.4.1. There are some pretty
> hilarious errors. I especially like "incapable" for "inacabable."
>
> My core around your core has become Tight and shady a knot.
>
> each return of the superhuman loop
>  becomes a root, to hold fast  and deep,
>  and is an incapable and long embrace
>  that even  death will not break. You do not feel
> how I nourish myself of your same shade?
> My root has been braided to your roots
> And when you want to untie the knot,
> You will feel that it hurts you in living flesh
> and that in my wound brings forth your blood!
>
> And with your hands you will cure the sore
> and you will fit tighter the knot
>
>
> ------------------
> Tho original is free verse, I think -- it's certainly not
> hendecasyllables or any form I recognize. But I thought terza
> rima might fit it thematically, and Liz Henry (the editor)
> encourages multiple modes of translation, so --
>
>
> Fusion
> 			after Juana de Ibarbourou
>
>
> My Soul Entwined With Yours Into a Tight, Dark Knot
>
> This more-than-human cord, with every coil
> Rooted fast and deep, is an embrace
> Forever unfulfilled that death won't foil.
> Your shadow feeds me as my roots enlace
> Themselves with yours;  surely you must know
> That hunger and that we're one, that there's no trace
> Of you or me ? that when you want to go,
> To unravel that knot, your flesh will know my pain,
> And from my wound your living blood will flow!
>
> With your own hands you'll knit it back again,
> And cure the wound, and wipe away the stain!
>
>
>
> Still pretty creepy.
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:10:29 -0600
> From: Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <438F2E85.9040002 at ilstu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> sure thing, mr newberry. he makes me so happy. :) -g
>
> Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > Well said.  I've tried often to put my finger on what it is I so admire
> > about Whitman's voice.  The speaker is so expansive, so humble and
> > arrogant all at the same time.  Maybe what saves him from pure
> arrogance
> > is his empathy, not just the way he projects himself into other lives,
> > but also the way he portrays those lives--the emotions, the deeply-felt
> > life experiences.
> >
> > Thanks again, Gabe.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> >
> > On 11/30/05, *Gabriel Gudding* <gmguddi at ilstu.edu
> > <mailto:gmguddi at ilstu.edu>> wrote:
> >
> >     Never I think has a thought been expressed that is at once
> so banal and
> >     profound as this: WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. It is a truism deeply
> >     concrete in its factuality and yet nearly completely useless as an
> >     account of reality -- for it is a truth that is very hard
> to realize.
> >     (The utterance of this phrase in boisterous company is sometimes
> >     followed by a string of exclamation points and the unproductive
> >     ejaculation "Aaaaghghg!" That is to say, it is a truth that
> is so beyond
> >     us that it often works best as a joke.)
> >
> >     I assert that death is a class of destruction. No great
> news there. But
> >     I want to add that death, though a rather complete and
> maybe even "no
> >     nonsense" kind of destruction, is at heart a comic sort of
> destruction.
> >     And I think Whitman, though not himself a comic writer,
> knew this. Let
> >     me explain.
> >
> >     Comic destruction is never merely destructive; it has a levity to
> >     it, as
> >     if it will be followed by an improving and restorative
> force. Death to
> >     me is like this. Cartoons, also, are like this: If Wylie Coyote is
> >     crushed by a boulder, he comes back flattened for some time but
> >     eventually is restored fully to a two dimensional approximation of a
> >     three dimensional being (instead of a two dimensional
> approximation of a
> >     two dimensional being which he was while he was flattened
> and walking
> >     around like a wafer with legs, not necessary for me to go on like
> >     this).
> >
> >     My point is I have had glimpses of my death when I have been able to
> >     achieve a calmness in meditation via the complete surrender to (and
> >     awareness of) what is in me, namely: jillions of little explosions,
> >     pin-sized gusts of warmth, tiny sciroccos of jiggling
> electrical clouds
> >     blowing here and there in my muscles -- a constant
> roistering of change
> >     manifest as a flickering constellation of tiny atom-sized explosions
> >     all
> >     throughout my musculature, and in my eyes combusting and
> wavering fields
> >     of colors roseate, cyan, saffron, rubiate, pucid, vernal
> ... these racks
> >     and sets of conflagrations all throughout my body as if I were a dim
> >     backboard thrust into a storm of light.
> >
> >     And I strongly sense that death is merely the continuation of this
> >     conflagration without me (or with me in a different form).
> It's just a
> >     new stage of constant combustion and restoration. And as such it
> >     strikes
> >     me as fundamentally comic and joyous.
> >
> >     All of which is to say I'm on this listserv called HUMPO
> where a bunch
> >     of poets interested in comedy are trying to figure out what kind of
> >     cultural work it is that comedy does. These poets and I
> remain confused
> >     (Maxine Chernoff, D A Powell, Ron Silliman, Ange Mlinko,
> Gary Sullivan,
> >     K. Silem Mohammad, George Bowering, Katie Degentesh, Rachel
> Loden, are
> >     there others?) though we manage to serve ourselves some
> nice moments of
> >     insight.
> >
> >     Anyway, Rachel asked about "deadly serious" poets we happen
> to love. One
> >     of the poets I chose was Whitman. I absolutely love him.
> >
> >     And though he is obviously not "funny," I suppose I would
> hesitate to
> >     label him deadly serious because his emotional mode is so
> buoyant, so
> >     full of gratitude, so joyous and welcoming and generous and
> big-spirited
> >     -- embracing, encompassing, hugging, welcoming -- that I do not
> >     think of
> >     him as "serious."
> >
> >     But he is not "funny" either. He is not making jokes. Yet
> his spirit has
> >     something about it that shares deeply of a kind of
> unexpressed comedy.
> >
> >     This harks back to something Maxine Chernoff said recently
> onlist about
> >     the affiliation between comedy and empathy: she said that
> comedy at its
> >     best is deeply empathic. To my sensibility this rings quite
> true, even
> >     in comedy's most violent and hectic forms (eg, Farce),
> there is a deep
> >     empathy with the simultaneity of the absurdity, joy, and
> pain that is
> >     our lot in this world. And Whitman is almost empathy personified. So
> >     though he is not funny, his empathy makes him a cousin to
> the comedian.
> >     Whitman's empathy is a cousin to the democratizing aspects
> of the comic
> >     mode at its best -- but without being "expressed" as comedy.
> >
> >     There is an inclusiveness to Whitman's character that is
> consonant with
> >     that ideal inclusive society that all comedy (according to Northrop
> >     Frye) tends toward: a forgiveness of pain, suffering, and
> of those who
> >     caused, and keep causing, it.
> >
> >     Most of the worst of what some folks call "serious" poetry
> just strikes
> >     me as whinging. Whinging about the fact that we suffer. I
> must say that
> >     many poets who have written from a mode of high seriousness (and I'm
> >     talking since like early 20c -- Pound, Eliot (not kitty cat
> Eliot)) do,
> >     I find, tend to strike me as melodramatic. Melodrama, as
> well all know,
> >     occurs when there's no real (or sufficient) rationale for
> the emotion;
> >     it seems outsized and inappropriate.
> >
> >     And such is the case with the general palette of emotional responses
> >     used by many writers: We witness a bizarre collection of cultural
> >     responses to the suffering inherent to life as a body of knee-jerk
> >     emotive reactions: nostalgia, self-pity, country-western
> music. In fact,
> >     the older I get and the more used I become to the idea that I'm
> >     going to
> >     die, the more melodrama I keep spotting in art, movies, tv,
> and "alas"
> >     poetry.
> >
> >     Most of it seems to be bemoaning suffering and whining. What I love
> >     however about Whitman is that he is not doing that; and
> neither is he
> >     cracking jokes.
> >
> >     I think it is evident that he knew at a very deep experiential level
> >     (and not merely intellectually) -- and one can sense this in the
> >     comprehensiveness of his empathy -- that death comes to all
> of us. Not
> >     just to oneself.
> >
> >     He is full of empathy. He is full of true gratitude, deep
> acceptance,
> >     and a deeply welcoming groove that makes me want to love him A LOT.
> >     There is something about the quality of his awareness that does not
> >     bemoan or whine. It is soft, welcoming, and deeply aware.
> >
> >     It is admirable.
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     New-Poetry mailing list
> >     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> >                                                    --Miguel de Unamuno
> >
> > Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1
> *****************************************
>
>




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 19:47:38 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:47:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
In-Reply-To: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEBECIAA.cc@opus0.com>
References: <200512011700.jB1H03Ht013749@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEBECIAA.cc@opus0.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512021647t13d5eb70n4172fa197e645b30@mail.gmail.com>

Crisman,

Just to clarify, I don't think that Whitman was arrogant.  I do think that
it's arrogant to assume to speak for all people, as Whitman so often does.
However, his empathy, as I argue, saves him from this charge of arrogance.

In my book, there are few greater poets than Walt Whitman.

Jeff Newberry


On 12/2/05, Crisman Cooley <cc at opus0.com> wrote:
>
> I like this little essay Gabe ... I read your essay on solipsism in am lit
> several years ago and liked it very much ... so I was not surprised to
> like
> this piece.  It does seem a little odd to frame the discussion of Whitman
> on
> humor.  I agree he isn't funny -- though I do laugh out loud at some of
> his
> self-proclamations.  And I agree that his attitude toward death is key to
> his poetic transcendance of suffering.  Right: there is no melodrama, and
> yes, poetry is so full of articulate whining.  (Did you mean "whinging"?
> --
> I'm away from my OED so I can't check if this is a typo:)  I love Plath
> and
> she seems to be entering the pantheon -- she is among the best of the
> whiners.  Eliot himself replied to those inquiring into the mysterious
> meaning of Waste Land saying that it was his extended grousing (sorry
> don't
> recall his word) about the day.  Whitman, besides being a great poet, was
> a
> great man-- in his persona, at least, he attains and maintains a spiritual
> greatness (levity?  enlightenment?) quite outside of his local ego.  I
> disagree with Jeff N. ... I don't think Whitman is arrogant -- he was, I
> think, claiming a territory on the page outside and beyond himself.  Blake
> too.
>
> Your piece also clarifies melodrama in a way that is useful to me in the
> piece I'm working on.  I just wrote my ma apologizing because it isn't
> funny-- that I thought I'd found a way to avoid gravity (L. Sterne's
> identified 'defect of the mind') by turning for solace to beauty.  We
> shall
> see.
>
> toodaloo!
>
>
>
> >




--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  2 21:07:17 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 18:07:17 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Clark Coolidge, "Down Too Many
	Barrels"
Message-ID: <200512030142.jB31gLQq099774@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

i think these are the poem that are based on his watching of old movies, 
kinda sorta---

i suppose one could say there's that high art ashbery thingscape going
but there's some dylan "allusions" and the lowerclass western thing
might recall ed dorn in his less "political" moments....

oh yeah like hugo-ized ashbery (for some reason i doubt coolidge reads
richard hugo,
but it's my tagline and I'm sticking to it!  well at least enough to post it
and regret it later....which is okay too....

Chris

----------
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Clark Coolidge, "Down Too Many
Barrels"
Date: Fri, Dec 2, 2005, 5:40 AM



Down Too Many Barrels

Those boys on the roof are just
waiting to fall through
but that bartender's kind of awkward
chairs full of young whiners and sod galoots
some other Jasper says I'm dull
eye like ball of scum
was that a liquid on the plate?
one churl set sail for New Bedford
but I've kept my Butane attitude
Butane Nevada that is
bottle full of oiled monkeys this is
there's an old saying: when the wine is done
you just have to finish it
makes sense to me a flush bunny
even down dark alleys of mirth
get your hooks off them potatoes
the town suffers from roundup
here come the miners minus dollars
want to be diners bright
as a dime on a cancelled stamp
but all these bellies are empty
as a star on a tom fool
and I'm sick of this dirtbank living
think I'll get me a sack
full up with bendable goods
one hand faster than a twisted dog
the other from cyclone load
but this sheriff's getting his sides mixed up
hey this card table smells like the sea
better ask Bill Hackleroad
he's in charge of the chloroform board
the jail's filling up with lead weights
Notion Boys hard as empty boxes
reach and go blind in this town
Robert Ryan can't see beneath
the cowboy stairs and what bodes
won't be long now

--Clark Coolidge

fr. Far Out West
[New York: Adventures in Poetry, 2001]



Hal? ? ?? ?

Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
?? ? ? ? ? halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blogs: ? ? http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
?? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Dec  2 20:43:31 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:43:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the comprehensive empathy of walt whitman
References: <200512011700.jB1H03Ht013749@wiz.cath.vt.edu><NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJEEBECIAA.cc@opus0.com>
	<731bb17a0512021647t13d5eb70n4172fa197e645b30@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c5f7aa$f8a96840$32b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Just to clarify, I don't think that Whitman was arrogant.  I do think that it's arrogant to assume to speak for all people, as Whitman so often does.  However, his empathy, as I argue, saves him from this charge of arrogance. 

  He was also often self-effacing, and clearly not promoting himself (in his poems, at any rate).  

  --Bob G. (not, by the way, a fan of Whitman's)
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Fri Dec  2 23:16:26 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:16:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] An invitation
Message-ID: <263.159661e.30c2761a@aol.com>

 
Oops. Here'swhat I meannt to send. 
 
Speaking of sending, as the Jefferson Airplane once said, a small package  of 
value will be coming to you shortly. I sent you a letter, some poems and some 
 other stuff. You'll be interested to know you've been hte subject of some  
conversations around old Wake Tech recently.
 
Take good care.
 
In a message dated 12/2/2005 2:22:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
amparker at davidson.edu writes:


On behalf of Tupelo Press, I would  like to invite you to join 
Laure-Anne-Bosselaar,  Jennifer Michael Hecht, Andrew Hudgins, Jeffrey Levine, Alan Michael 
Parker,  Victoria Redel and Thom Ward this Tuesday, December 6, from 7-9 p.m. 
at Poet?s  House (72 Spring St) to celebrate the publication of The Imaginary  
Poets. Admission will be $7. 
The Imaginary Poets includes work by  twenty-two poets writing in the voice 
of a new persona, a poet conceived  entirely out of their own imaginations. 
Each contributor was given the  challenge of translating a poem into English, 
offering a biography of the  poet, and then writing a short essay in which the 
poem, the poet, and the  corpus are considered?and asked to make up all of it. 
In response, poems  ?translated? from eighteen languages appeared; they 
include works in Dirja,  Vietnamese, Yiddish, and even Egyptian hieroglyphs, poems 
that may be read in  the grand literary tradition of heteronyms and alter egos. 
The Imaginary Poets was edited by Alan  Michael Parker. Contributors include 
Aliki Barnstone as Eva Victoria Perera, Josh Bell as Saurah Joan Mao, 
Laure-Anne Bosselaar as Anne-Maelle Mathieu, Martha Collins as Hoi An, Annie Finch as 
Rose Elbow Souris, Judith Hall as J II, Barbara Hamby as Gertrude of 
Brandenburg, Jennifer Michael  Hecht as Kisaru Gashe, Garrett Hongo as Casey 
Shigemitsu, Andrew Hudgins as Alan Lutiy, David Kirby as Kevnor, Maxine Kumin as Greta 
Schoenemann-Licht, Khaled Mattawa as Tafida Zeinhum, D.A. Powell as Joao Pudim, 
Kevin Prufer as Wen Bo, Anna Rabinowitz as Hekenus, Victoria Redel as Tzadie 
Rackel, David St. John as Jean-Phillipe Dariens, Mark Strand as Marin K., Thom 
Ward as Jan DeKeerk, Rosanna Warren as Anne Verveine, and Eleanor Wilner as 
Irena Zupanik. 





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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Fri Dec  2 23:17:39 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:17:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] An invitation
Message-ID: <28a.12e26a9.30c27663@aol.com>

Sorry. Meant to send that to just one person.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec  4 11:19:01 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:19:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Trouble With Poetry
Message-ID: <BFB87314.162B7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Did I post this poem before?  Very well then, I posted it before.


The Trouble With Poetry


The trouble with poetry, I realized
as I walked along a beach one night--
cold Florida sand under my bare feet,
a show of stars in the sky--

the trouble with poetry is
that it encourages the writing of more poetry,
more guppies crowding the fish tank,
more baby rabbits 
hopping out of their mothers into the dewy grass.

And how will it ever end?
unless the day finally arrives
when we have compared everything in the world
to everything else in the world,

and there is nothing left to do
but quietly close our notebooks
and sit with our hands folded on our desks.

Poetry fills me with joy
and I rise like a feather in the wind.
Poetry fills me with sorrow
and I sink like a chain flung from a bridge.

But mostly poetry fills me
with the urge to write poetry,
to sit in the dark and wait for a little flame
to appear at the tip of my pencil.

And along with that, the longing to steal,
to break into the poems of others
with a flashlight and a ski mask.

And what an unmerry band of thieves we are,
cut-purses, common shoplifters,
I thought to myself
as a cold wave swirled around my feet
and the lighthouse moved its megaphone over the sea,
which is an image I stole directly
from Lawrence Ferlinghetti--
to be perfectly honest for a moment--

the bicycling poet of San Francisco
whose little amusement park of a book
I carried in a side pocket of my uniform
up and down the treacherous halls of high school.


--Billy Collins.  The Trouble With Poetry.  Random House, 2005.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Dec  4 15:31:15 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:31:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Obit du jour:  Franz Jolowicz
Message-ID: <A68A4552-899F-4832-BC5F-7ADEB04D0986@earthlink.net>


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/arts/music/04jolowicz.html


Hal           Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com


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From matthew.shindell at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 23:09:03 2005
From: matthew.shindell at gmail.com (Matthew Shindell)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 20:09:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Whenever you please,
	more poetry and music available in streaming audio
In-Reply-To: <5c3d17030512042005o3ae6e5acoeeeb7b0d3de978e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5c3d17030512042005o3ae6e5acoeeeb7b0d3de978e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3f273e940512042009o25d99f62ge9267e0343dba197@mail.gmail.com>

Now there are more opportunities to listen to My Vocabulary, and you
can choose the time and place to listen. I've just added last week's
show to the streaming audio archives at
http://myvocabulary.blogspot.com.

In this show, you'll hear a reading by the Lucifer Poetics Group,
recorded at Red Emma's in Baltimore this last summer. The readers
you'll hear (roughly in this order) include David Need, Randall
Williams, Ken Rumble, Todd Sandvick, Marcus Slease, Brian Howe, Mike
Snyder, Reb Livingston, Carly Sachs and Matthew Shindell.

The music you'll hear is listed below:

(song title- artist)
tarantella- the lounge lizards
ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space- spiritualized
christiansands- tricky
dr. caligari- iqu
we're winning- fog
memphis emphasis- tristeza
walking around- innocence mission
did you see the world- animal collective
chan chan- the mammals
a life of possibilities- dismemberment plan
bridges and balloons- joanna newsom
there goes the fear- doves
hollow little reign- supergrass
the queen chant (e lili u e)- martin denny

So please check it out. I think you'll enjoy it. And check back soon
because there's more on the way.

Thanks for all your support,
Matt

--
My Vocabulary: Poems and Music
Hosted by Matthew Shindell
Music by Michel Cazary
Sundays 4-6 pm (PST) on KSDT (http://ksdt.ucsd.edu/)
http://myvocabulary.blogspot.com
MyVocabulary at gmail.com



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Dec  5 06:38:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:38:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] an anthology
Message-ID: <004f01c5f990$62f2e6e0$f2de3052@ANNY>

I know that some people who are on this list are also on the WOM-PO list. There is this project going on and everybody is invited to send a pOm, see if you are interested:

http://www.cwj-workshop.blogspot.com/



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From rsillima at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  5 08:19:56 2005
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 05:19:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Surprise! Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <20051205131957.94893.qmail@web31808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT POSTS

Surprise ???
the role of expectation in shaping aesthetics

Charles Olson Now ???
>From Mesopotamia to Iraq, and beyond

Bramble by Joseph Massey ???
Lunes from a master of the miniature

Spam poems by Rob Read
that are really worth reading

Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter . . . and Spring
- A Korean look at contrition

Harry Potter
taking life seriously

An epic in seeming lyrics:
Laura Sims??? Practice, Restraint

Poetry & class

Academic schools & schools in poetry

Audio & video
as a means of preserving poetry

A portrait of the author
as an Easter peep

A history of the New York School
by Jordan Davis

Vanitas:
the most ambitious new poetry mag
in decades

Portraying John Ashbery
in the New Yorker

A day in New York City:
a podcast for MiPOradio,
reading with David Shapiro

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From cc at opus0.com  Mon Dec  5 18:56:39 2005
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:56:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: the comprehensive empathy of walt + Re:Re: An
	announcement
In-Reply-To: <200512031700.jB3H05Ht005947@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <NLEBINHDLBNDBAIHNGBJGECLCIAA.cc@opus0.com>

Jeff,
Thanks for the clarification.

> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:47:38 -0500
> From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: the comprehensive empathy of walt
> 	whitman
>
> Crisman,
>
> Just to clarify, I don't think that Whitman was arrogant.  I do think that
> it's arrogant to assume to speak for all people, as Whitman so often does.
> However, his empathy, as I argue, saves him from this charge of arrogance.
>
> In my book, there are few greater poets than Walt Whitman.
>
> Jeff Newberry

====================

Tad & Hal,
Thanks for the recommendation of Lynda Schor.  And who knows but if old Walt
W. were alive today he might be writing homoerotic poetry.  And we might
succeed in inverting the Socratic love hierarchy, with perfect form (pure
mental activity) as a beginning and sublimation of physical sensation at the
top of an upward spiral.  We might even readmit poets into the Republic.  No
one could accuse me of idealism for expressing the possibility, because it
is a superclass of idealism embracing an esthetic of refined sensuality.

C


> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:41:53 -0500
> From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: An announcement
>
> I don't think anyone writes erotic fiction better than Lynda Schor.




> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:49:09 -0500
> From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: An announcement
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
> 	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <2DAF70DB-8B19-43A7-9646-321944C7295E at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> I second that notion.
>
> Hal
>
> On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:41 PM, TheOldMole wrote:
>
> > I don't think anyone writes erotic fiction better than Lynda Schor.
> >
> >




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Dec  6 15:29:03 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:29:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] HCA Spring Academy 2006 
Message-ID: <00aa01c5faa3$ba275400$bba93252@ANNY>

<<announcement spring academy 2006.doc>> 
>From: springacademy at hca.uni-heidelberg.de
>Sent: 1-12-2005 13:39

The Heidelberg Center for American Studies (HCA) invites applications for
its HCA Spring Academy 2006 on American History, Culture, and Politics,
which will take place from April 3 to April 7, 2006, at the University of
Heidelberg, Germany. The Spring Academy aims at establishing an
international and interdisciplinary network of Ph.D. students specializing
in the fields of American history, politics, law, economics, sociology,
literature and cultural studies particularly aspiring to facilitate the
insights that can be generated by cross-disciplinary dialogue. Papers can be
presented on any subject relating to the study of the United States of
America.
Participants are requested to prepare a 20-minute presentation of their
research project, which will be followed by a thorough discussion allowing
for feedback from participants as well as from advisors on form and content
of their projects. Presentations will be arranged thematically in panel
groups. Possible topics include immigration, American identity,
transatlantic relations, U.S. foreign policy, gender, literature, issues of
ethnicity, as well as other aspects of American history, politics, and
culture. We encourage applicants pursuing interdisciplinary projects.
The HCA Spring Academy will provide participants with the opportunity to
work with experts in their fields of study. Guest speakers will be invited
for lectures and workshops.

For more information as well as for the online application form please
visit:
www.springacademy.de

The application deadline is December 15, 2005.


Contact:
Heidelberg Center for American Studies (HCA)
Spring Academy 2006
Schillerstr. 4-8
D-69115 Heidelberg
Germany

Phone: +49-6221-79634-0
Email: info at springacademy.de
Homepage: www.springacademy.de


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Dec  6 16:00:49 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 22:00:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blogs
Message-ID: <00b801c5faa8$2353a060$bba93252@ANNY>

Sent by Chris Murray's Tex Files to this, enjoy:
http://www.jerryjazzmusician.com/mainHTML.cfm?page=artbeat.html



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Dec  6 16:25:04 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 22:25:04 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: 10th Anniversary Sale on Borderlines Series books
Message-ID: <00e801c5faab$869301e0$bba93252@ANNY>

10th Anniversary Sale on Borderlines Series books
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Stacy Zellmann 
To: University of Minnesota Press 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 6:16 PM
Subject: 10th Anniversary Sale on Borderlines Series books


27 days left 

University of Minnesota Press Sale on 
Borderlines Series Books!

30% off!


http://www.upress.umn.edu/salecatalog/Borderlines05.html

                



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From lattaj at umich.edu  Wed Dec  7 08:15:47 2005
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:15:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Electronic Poetry Review
In-Reply-To: <d1.356092f5.30bfacc2@aol.com>
References: <d1.356092f5.30bfacc2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0512051622190.31421@arkanoid.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Katherine Swiggart tells me that
Electronic Poetry Review is now at

http://www.epoetry.org/






From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Dec  7 15:56:28 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:56:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] 12th Annual Juried Reading and Awards
Message-ID: <003701c5fb70$b35d1ce0$468e3052@ANNY>

12th Annual Juried Reading and Awards
The Poetry Center of Chicago
http://www.poetrycenter.org/reading/

Billy Collins, Final Judge
Postmark deadline: Friday, February 10, 2006
First prize: $1,500; Second prize: $500; third prize, $250; five finalists 
receive $50

The Poetry Center invites regional poets to submit their unpublished work for 
consideration in the 12th Annual Juried Reading. Eight finalists will be 
selected to read at a Poetry Center event. One poem by each finalist will be 
published in a chapbook and on The Poetry Center website.

The Juried Reading is open to all poets residing in Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, 
Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio and Wisconsin. Poets may be unpublished or 
have published no more than one full-length book of poetry, not including 
self-published books. All submissions are blind; the jury and the judge will have 
no access to identifying information about the submitting poets.
To submit, mail:
1. A cover sheet including your name, address, phone number, e-mail address 
and titles of poems submitted.
2. Four packets of 5 single-sided pages of unpublished poetry. Please staple 
each packet. Your name should not appear on any of the pages containing poems.
3. $10 jury fee, check or money order made payable to "The Poetry Center." 
The contest is free for Poetry Center members.
All entries must be postmarked by Friday, February 10, 2006. Poems will be 
accepted by US mail only. Send poems to: 12th annual Juried Reading, The Poetry 
Center, 37 S. Wabash Avenue, Suite 451, Chicago, IL 60603. E-mail and fax 
submissions will not be accepted.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From matthew.shindell at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 03:13:07 2005
From: matthew.shindell at gmail.com (Matthew Shindell)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:13:07 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shin Yu Pai and H_NGM_N #4 this Sunday on KSDT
In-Reply-To: <5c3d17030512081124l3e6fe899ta0788c40082821d6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5c3d17030512081124l3e6fe899ta0788c40082821d6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3f273e940512090013l533be1b8x2d76272b3d2ee0b8@mail.gmail.com>

This Sunday on My Vocabulary I'll be live in the KSDT studio with the
fantastic poet Shin Yu Pai, discussing her work and hearing her read
from her various projects, old and new.

We'll also be listening to recorded readings from the upcoming issue
of Nathan Pritts' online magazine H_NGM_N. This will include poems by
Oni Buchanan, Matt Hart, Jon Leon, and Noah Falck.

Of course Michel will be there too, so you can rest assured the music
will be fantastic as well.

So tune in at 4pm (PST) for a very rich two hours of poetry and music.
Just set your browser to http://ksdt.ucsd.edu and choose your
connection speed.

And thanks again for your continuing support.

Cheers,
Matthew Shindell

--
My Vocabulary: Poems and Music
Hosted by Matthew Shindell
Music by Michel Cazary
Sundays 4-6 pm (PST) on KSDT (http://ksdt.ucsd.edu/)
http://myvocabulary.blogspot.com
MyVocabulary at gmail.com



From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec  9 07:06:09 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:06:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Rosmarie Waldrop,
	"We were approaching winter . . ."
Message-ID: <5D96A113-5780-4FEA-B259-BA888ED78CD6@earthlink.net>


"We were approaching winter . . ."

We were approaching winter like an object which cannot
be put between words. Behavior became simpler since we had
dislocated our memories. Still, much was. A little confusion in
the propositions will allow for this. Or truth can be so strenuous
it makes you lean against the window frame. I thought of
breathing deeply to find Venus reflected in the river. Then I
would know if standing beside you leaves my lips dry. But I was
really dissecting your name by means of definitions which
would point the way to the missing copula where I could see the
sky. Though the clouds could be uttered in a variety of tones,
the stars formed constellations analyzed completely. You cried
for the moon, which had started to wane in agreement with
constant and variable. What this silver sliver failed to reveal, its
expression between my thighs would clarify.

--Rosmarie Waldrop

fr. The Reproduction of Profiles
[New York: New Directions, 1987]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Dec 10 13:37:34 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:37:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harold PInter
Message-ID: <005f01c5fdb8$c9d90520$542ab750@ANNY>

Harold Pinter's Nobel Lecture, video and text

http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Dec 10 16:27:47 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:27:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <BFC0A473.16587%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Emily Dickinson born this day in 1830. . . .


Who goes to dine must take his feast
Or find the banquet mean
The table is not laid without
Till it is laid within

For pattern is the mind bestowed
That imitating her
Our most ignoble services
Exhibit worthier

    --Emily Dickinson


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 10 16:48:28 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:48:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harold PInter
References: <005f01c5fdb8$c9d90520$542ab750@ANNY>
Message-ID: <004301c5fdd3$74ce4890$61b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Gee, for a few paragraphs I thought he might not be a trivial political propagandist.  

--Bob G.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 10 18:31:03 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:31:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI
Message-ID: <E8FFEAA0-FC33-4B57-ABE4-4CA40AAE10E1@earthlink.net>

Thought you might like to hear that the online Apple store today
is making available to me for under a dollar Bartok's Allegro Barbara,
SZ 49. No indication as to whether the pianist is using the score.

Reminds me of my second wife, and also of the fact that Thomas
Zehetmair requires the member of the Zehetmair Quartet to play
public performances (and recordings too, as far as I know) without
scores.

Hal            Actual Product May Vary from Photos

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec 11 00:23:34 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:23:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Eugene McCarthy
Message-ID: <BFC113F5.165A2%grahamd@ripon.edu>


THE MAPLE TREE

The maple tree that night
Without a wind or rain
Let go its leaves
Because its time had come.
Brown veined, spotted,
Like old hands, fluttering in blessing,
They fell upon my head
And shoulders, and then
Down to the quiet at my feet.
I stood, and stood
Until the tree was bare
And have told no one
But you that I was there.


--Eugene McCarthy 



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Sun Dec 11 07:07:15 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 06:07:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] from jim behrle
Message-ID: <439C1673.8020509@ilstu.edu>

Hey Gabe--

can you post this to new-poetics for me??

xxxjimmy



Subject: Jim Behrle Needs Your Vote in the New York Post

Jim Behrle needs *your* help to win the love of the luminous and 
delightful Rose!

http://www.nypost.com/dating/d1.htm

He must win the poplular vote!

Vote early and often and from every computer you can find! Jim's 
happiness is in your hands!

xxxjimmy


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec 11 11:43:13 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:43:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] How sad
Message-ID: <BFC1B341.165D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>



Mulroney

Where the hell do these people come from?
Mulroney asked me.
We were crumpling up a Sunday New York Times
That had found its way into the pile of papers
We used as packing filler for glass jars of honey.
We were wadding up the wedding notices?
Young lawyers in love with account executives.
Their fathers were surgeons and vice-presidents;
Their mothers were psychologists and counselors.

We were working as prep cooks at a ski resort
And packing boxes at a place down in the valley
To make a couple extra bucks.
Mulroney didn?t know anything except
Eat, fuck, sleep, ski. A regular physical guy,
He barely knew what Vietnam was
And it was 1975.
He could have lived any time, any place,
And for all ostensible purposes he was.
He?d wake up in the morning in the cabin
We shared and it was cold and he?d curse
And try to coax whatever woman he was sleeping
With to start the fire in the woodstove.
I could hear him cooing in his gravelly
Flattened brogue of a voice.
A few mornings the woman would get up, most
Mornings not. Defeats and victories and
Sunlight licking the frosted windows
And Mulroney full of the dumb sap of time
And scratching his balls.

Where the hell do these people come from?
He asked me.
Mulroney, you dim honky ass, I said.
They are groomed to run the show
And he looked down at the crumpled vivacity
Of the young brides in newsprint
And he broke into an almost lovely smile
And he said in a voice that could have
Passed for thoughtful, How sad.

--Baron Wormser. Mulroney & Others.  Sarabande, 2000.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 11 11:50:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:50:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The song of the shirt
Message-ID: <013701c5fe72$f733ef70$78d93052@ANNY>

(pasting from a mail appeared on wom-po by Lisa..)

The Song of The Shirt
[First published in Punch, or the London Charivari. 16 December 1843.]
- Thomas Hood

With fingers weary and worn,
With eyelids heavy and red,
A woman sat, in unwomanly rags,
Plying her needle and thread--
Stitch! stitch! stitch!
In poverty, hunger, and dirt,
And still with a voice of dolorous pitch
She sang the "Song of the Shirt."
"Work! work! work!
While the cock is crowing aloof! 10
And work--work--work,
Till the stars shine through the roof!
It's Oh! to be a slave
Along with the barbarous Turk,
Where woman has never a soul to save, 
If this is Christian work!
"Work--work--work,
Till the brain begins to swim;
Work--work--work,
Till the eyes are heavy and dim!
Seam, and gusset, * and band, 20 
strengthen or widen a garment.
Band, and gusset, and seam,
Till over the buttons I fall asleep,
And sew them on in a dream!
"Oh, Men, with Sisters dear!
Oh, men, with Mothers and Wives!
It is not linen you're wearing out,
But human creatures' lives!
Stitch--stitch--stitch,
In poverty, hunger and dirt, 30
Sewing at once, with a double thread,
A Shroud as well as a Shirt.
"But why do I talk of Death?
That Phantom of grisly bone,
I hardly fear its terrible shape,
It seems so like my own--
It seems so like my own,
Because of the fasts I keep;
Oh, God! that bread should be so dear
And flesh and blood so cheap! 40
"Work--work--work!
My labour never flags;
And what are its wages? A bed of straw,
A crust of bread--and rags.
That shattered roof--this naked floor--
A table--a broken chair--
And a wall so blank, my shadow I thank
For sometimes falling there!
"Work--work--work!
>From weary chime to chime, 50
Work--work--work,
As prisoners work for crime!
Band, and gusset, and seam,
Seam, and gusset, and band,
Till the heart is sick, and the brain benumbed,
As well as the weary hand.
"Work--work--work,
In the dull December light,
And work--work--work,
When the weather is warm and bright-- 60
While underneath the eaves
The brooding swallows cling
As if to show me their sunny backs
And twit me with the spring.
"Oh! but to breathe the breath
Of the cowslip and primrose sweet--
With the sky above my head,
And the grass beneath my feet;
For only one short hour
To feel as I used to feel, 70
Before I knew the woes of want
And the walk that costs a meal!
"Oh! but for one short hour!
A respite however brief!
No bless'd leisure for Love or Hope,
But only time for Grief!
A little weeping would ease my heart,
But in their briny bed
My tears must stop, for every drop 
Hinders needle and thread!" 80
With fingers weary and worn,
With eyelids heavy and red,
A woman sat in unwomanly rags,
Plying her needle and thread--
Stitch! stitch! stitch!
In poverty, hunger, and dirt,
And still with a voice of dolorous pitch,--
Would that its tone could reach the Rich!--
She sang this "Song of the Shirt!"





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 11 12:13:23 2005
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:13:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] from jim behrle
In-Reply-To: <439C1673.8020509@ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <20051211171323.15019.qmail@web81112.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Jim is way ahead in the polls!  Yay!
  

Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:
  Hey Gabe--

can you post this to new-poetics for me??

xxxjimmy



Subject: Jim Behrle Needs Your Vote in the New York Post

Jim Behrle needs *your* help to win the love of the luminous and 
delightful Rose!

http://www.nypost.com/dating/d1.htm

He must win the poplular vote!

Vote early and often and from every computer you can find! Jim's 
happiness is in your hands!

xxxjimmy
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
  


			
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
 Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 11 13:09:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:09:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Seasonal Cartoons
Message-ID: <019001c5fe7e$148ac3e0$78d93052@ANNY>

seen that cartoons are appreciated, here are some more, the previous were better though...
always thanks to my good friend, Anny
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 11 13:57:40 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:57:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Vignette
Message-ID: <020001c5fe84$c3072250$78d93052@ANNY>

Nachrichtand some more, this time from an Italian source, Anny
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 11 19:41:00 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:41:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The G-Rated Sonnet"
Message-ID: <8D498DE7-616A-416C-842F-7A2059DA0AAF@earthlink.net>


The G-Rated Sonnet

I'd like this sonnet to be as sweet, as tender and sexless, as any
love scene featuring Diane Keaton and Steve Martin. I'd like it
to be as dulcet-toned as Anita O'Day singing "Skylark." I'd like
my sonnet to be full of children, yet void of conception, preg-

nancy, and childbirth. Their ears would be ears that have never
heard "foetus" or "fuck" or "pudenda." Their family newspaper
would report only engagements, weddings and births. Images
of war, of broken and mutilated bodies would never appear there.

No names of the dead, please. They'll all remain nameless, unless,
of course, it's Grandma or Grandpa, or, sadly, little Rexie, who
never lived to be a full-sized dog, or that small, nameless kitty we
found in the backyard that day and which Junior ran over with

his scooter without meaning to do so. Like gray-haired Martin, this
sonnet shakes its head in dismay, raises (briefly) its eyes to Heaven.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com

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From rsillima at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 12 07:14:22 2005
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 04:14:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rising, Falling, Hovering: Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <20051212121422.91027.qmail@web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT POSTS

Rising, Falling, Hovering
by C.D. Wright ???
A poem as complex as a major motion picture

My Dolores Park

Notes on Pinter, Norman Fischer, arts auctions,
the blogroll & Katrina relief

Naming and time ???
the Plausible Worlds of Aaron Belz

Don Byrd on Olson Now

Recent poetry by Ray DiPalma

Wadada Leo Smith and the Golden Quartet ???
greatness out of synch

Surprise ???
the role of expectation in shaping aesthetics

Charles Olson Now ???
>From Mesopotamia to Iraq, and beyond

Bramble by Joseph Massey ???
Lunes from a master of the miniature

Spam poems by Rob Read
that are really worth reading

Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter . . . and Spring
- A Korean look at contrition

Harry Potter
taking life seriously

An epic in seeming lyrics:
Laura Sims??? Practice, Restraint

Poetry & class

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Dec 12 09:55:59 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:55:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] I should have walked
Message-ID: <BFC2EB9F.1664B%grahamd@ripon.edu>



New York Notes

1.
Caught on a side street
in heavy traffic, I said
to the cabbie, I should
have walked. He replied,
I should have been a doctor.


2.
When can I get on the 11:33
I ask the guy in the information booth
at the Atlantic Avenue Station.
When they open the doors, he says.
I am home among my people.

--Harvey Shapiro. How Charlie Shavers Died and Other Poems.    Wesleyan UP,
2001.





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Dec 12 14:07:06 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:07:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] now on conchology blog -- the platypus?
Message-ID: <439DCA5A.9060801@ilstu.edu>

CAN A PLATYPUS REACH ENLIGHTNMENT?:
In Honor of a Retard Animal


POETRY AT SEA:
Your Discount for a Caribbean Cruise
(and You Don't Have to Take the Dumb Workshops Neither)


ON THE COMPREHENSIVE EMPATHY OF WALT WHITMAN --
And Its Kinship to the Comic Mode


http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/


From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Dec 12 14:10:40 2005
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:10:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [ILSTUCREATIVEWRITING-L] now on conchology blog --
	the platypus?
In-Reply-To: <439DCA5A.9060801@ilstu.edu>
References: <439DCA5A.9060801@ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <439DCB30.9090205@ilstu.edu>

I forgot to Add:

IN HONOR OF HAROLD LLOYD:
Why A Great Comedian is Perforce
a Good Citizen

Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> CAN A PLATYPUS REACH ENLIGHTNMENT?:
> In Honor of a Retard Animal
> 
> 
> POETRY AT SEA:
> Your Discount for a Caribbean Cruise
> (and You Don't Have to Take the Dumb Workshops Neither)
> 
> 
> ON THE COMPREHENSIVE EMPATHY OF WALT WHITMAN --
> And Its Kinship to the Comic Mode
> 
> 
> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Dec 12 16:26:14 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:26:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] I should have walked
References: <BFC2EB9F.1664B%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <005201c5ff62$aeead2b0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I should have walkedThis and the other poem you recently posted, David, are fun reading.  But they make me wonder what to make of them.  Technically, they're poems--I have no problem with that.  But they (and many by others in the same vein) are so different from what I think of as aesthetic poems.  Enough to make me think they should be distinguished by name from them.  Essay poems and lyrical poems?  

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:55 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] I should have walked




  New York Notes

  1.
  Caught on a side street
  in heavy traffic, I said
  to the cabbie, I should
  have walked. He replied,
  I should have been a doctor.


  2.
  When can I get on the 11:33
  I ask the guy in the information booth
  at the Atlantic Avenue Station.
  When they open the doors, he says.
  I am home among my people.

  --Harvey Shapiro. How Charlie Shavers Died and Other Poems.    Wesleyan UP, 2001.





  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Dec 12 16:37:01 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:37:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] I should have walked
In-Reply-To: <005201c5ff62$aeead2b0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BFC3499C.166AE%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I'd agree that these poems are pretty low-intensity on the language-meter.
Far from Hart Crane or Dylan Thomas, say.  Rather like journal entries, I
suppose--or "notes" as the one below has it.

Whether we need a term to describe such lyrics or not, I dunno.  I've
managed to live without one, it seems.



on 12/12/05 3:26 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

This and the other poem you recently posted, David, are fun reading.  But
they make me wonder what to make of them.  Technically, they're poems--I
have no problem with that.  But they (and many by others in the same vein)
are so different from what I think of as aesthetic poems.  Enough to make me
think they should be distinguished by name from them.  Essay poems and
lyrical poems?  
 
--Bob G.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Graham <mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:55 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] I should have walked



New York Notes

1.
Caught on a side street
in heavy traffic, I said
to the cabbie, I should
have walked. He replied,
I should have been a doctor.


2.
When can I get on the 11:33
I ask the guy in the information booth
at the Atlantic Avenue Station.
When they open the doors, he says.
I am home among my people.

--Harvey Shapiro. How Charlie Shavers Died and Other Poems.    Wesleyan UP,
2001.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Dec 12 19:13:47 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:13:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] I should have walked
References: <BFC3499C.166AE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007001c5ff7a$1688bc40$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I should have walkedI'd agree that these poems are pretty low-intensity on the language-meter.  Far from Hart Crane or Dylan Thomas, say.  Rather like journal entries, I suppose--or "notes" as the one below has it.

It's not just their language, but their indifference to sensual imagery, among other things.  That is, even haiku, which tend to avoid intense language, provide sensual images.  I'm not denigrating them, just describing them.  Grand diction or moving imagery would nulligy what their aims.  

Whether we need a term to describe such lyrics or not, I dunno.  I've managed to live without one, it seems.

Right.  But you tend to be content with what's there; others might find such a term useful.

--Bob G.

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Dec 13 11:17:44 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:17:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright
Message-ID: <BFC45048.166F2%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Garrison Keillor tells me it's the birthday of James Wright.

Here's what is probably my favorite poem of his:

As I Step Over A Puddle At The End Of Winter, I Think Of An Ancient Chinese
Governor

And how can I, born in evil days
And fresh from failure, ask a kindness of Fate?

            -- Written A.D. 819


Po Chu-i, balding old politician,
What's the use?
I think of you,
Uneasily entering the gorges of the Yang-Tze,
When you were being towed up the rapids
Toward some political job or other
In the city of Chungshou.
You made it, I guess,
By dark.

But it is 1960, it is almost spring again,
And the tall rocks of Minneapolis
Build me my own black twilight
Of bamboo ropes and waters.
Where is Yuan Chen, the friend you loved?
Where is the sea, that once solved the whole loneliness
Of the Midwest?Where is Minneapolis? I can see nothing
But the great terrible oak tree darkening with winter.
Did you find the city of isolated men beyond mountains?
Or have you been holding the end of a frayed rope
For a thousand years?

--James Wright


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 11:45:11 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:45:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright
In-Reply-To: <BFC45048.166F2%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BFC45048.166F2%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512130845p7b001b32u64cb6185a30710f7@mail.gmail.com>

What's the James Wright poem--I think it's by James Wright--where the
speaker meets an old Native America with a hook for a hand?

Or am I making this up . . . ?

Jeff Newberry


On 12/13/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
> Garrison Keillor tells me it's the birthday of James Wright.
>
> Here's what is probably my favorite poem of his:
>
> *As I Step Over A Puddle At The End Of Winter, I Think Of An Ancient
> Chinese Governor
>
> **And how can I, born in evil days
> And fresh from failure, ask a kindness of Fate?
>
> *           -- Written A.D. 819
>
>
> Po Chu-i, balding old politician,
> What's the use?
> I think of you,
> Uneasily entering the gorges of the Yang-Tze,
> When you were being towed up the rapids
> Toward some political job or other
> In the city of Chungshou.
> You made it, I guess,
> By dark.
>
> But it is 1960, it is almost spring again,
> And the tall rocks of Minneapolis
> Build me my own black twilight
> Of bamboo ropes and waters.
> Where is Yuan Chen, the friend you loved?
> Where is the sea, that once solved the whole loneliness
> Of the Midwest?Where is Minneapolis? I can see nothing
> But the great terrible oak tree darkening with winter.
> Did you find the city of isolated men beyond mountains?
> Or have you been holding the end of a frayed rope
> For a thousand years?
>
> --James Wright
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 11:59:24 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:59:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright
Message-ID: <245.38aad7f.30d057ec@aol.com>

 
It's called "Hook" I believe. 
 
In a message dated 12/13/2005 11:47:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes:

What's the James Wright poem--I think it's by James Wright--where the  
speaker meets an old Native America with a hook for a hand?
 
Or am I making this up . . . ?
 
Jeff Newberry


On 12/13/05, David  Graham <_grahamd at ripon.edu_ (mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu) > 
wrote:  
Garrison  Keillor tells me it's the birthday of James Wright.

Here's what is  probably my favorite poem of his: 

As I Step  Over A Puddle At The End Of Winter, I Think Of An Ancient Chinese  
Governor

And how can I, born in evil days
And fresh from  failure, ask a kindness of  Fate?

--  Written A.D. 819


Po Chu-i, balding old politician,
What's the  use?
I think of you,
Uneasily entering the gorges of the  Yang-Tze,
When you were being towed up the rapids
Toward some  political job or other 
In the city of Chungshou.
You made it, I  guess,
By dark.

But it is 1960, it is almost spring again,
And  the tall rocks of Minneapolis
Build me my own black twilight
Of bamboo  ropes and waters.
Where is Yuan Chen, the friend you loved?
Where is  the sea, that once solved the whole loneliness
Of the Midwest?Where is  Minneapolis? I can see nothing
But the great terrible oak tree darkening  with winter.
Did you find the city of isolated men beyond mountains?  
Or have you been holding the end of a frayed rope
For a thousand  years?

--James  Wright


====================================================
David Graham
_grahamd at ripon.edu_ (mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu) 
Home  Page:
_http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html_ 
(http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html) 
Poetry  Library:
_http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html_ 
(http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html) 
====================================================  


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry  mailing list
_New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  _ (mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) 
_http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry_ 
(http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry) 







-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but  death."
--Miguel de Unamuno





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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Dec 13 12:08:27 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:08:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright
In-Reply-To: <245.38aad7f.30d057ec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BFC45C2A.166FD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Yes, it's from To a Blossoming Pear Tree.



Hook

I was only a young man
In those days.  On that evening
The cold was so God damned
Bitter there was nothing.
Nothing.  I was in trouble
With a woman, and there was nothing
There but me and dead snow.

I stood on the street corner
In Minneapolis, lashed
This way and that.
Wind rose from some pit,
Hunting me.
Another bus to Saint Paul
Would arrive in three hours,
If I was lucky.

Then the young Sioux
Loomed beside me, his scars
Were just my age.

Ain't got no bus here
A long time, he said
You got enough money to go home on?

What did they do
To your hand?  I answered.
He raised up his hook into the terrible starlight
And slashed the wind.

Oh, that?  He said.
I had a bad time with a woman.  Here,
You take this.

Did you ever feel a man hold
Sixty-five cents
In a hook,
And place it
Gently
In your freezing hand?

I took it.
It wasn't the money I needed.
But I took it.


James Wright 



on 12/13/05 10:59 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com at AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote:

It's called "Hook" I believe.

In a message dated 12/13/2005 11:47:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes:
What's the James Wright poem--I think it's by James Wright--where the
speaker meets an old Native America with a hook for a hand?

Or am I making this up . . . ?

Jeff Newberry


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Dec 13 12:26:51 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:26:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright
In-Reply-To: <BFC45048.166F2%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BFC45048.166F2%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <AA401177-3DBA-47DA-818A-07A15CA9A2BA@earthlink.net>


On Dec 13, 2005, at 11:17 AM, David Graham wrote:

> Garrison Keillor tells me it's the birthday of James Wright.

Come on! What does HE know?


Hal        ". . . the old is too old and the new is too old."
                                         --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Dec 13 16:01:53 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:01:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] New York New York
Message-ID: <002001c6002a$bbbd2740$f1a83852@ANNY>

> From: Palacky University [mailto:colloquium at centrum.cz] 
> Sent: dinsdag 13 december 2005 19:11

Call for Speakers

13th Olomouc Colloquium of American Studies 
September 3-9, 2006
 Palacky University, Olomouc, Czech Republic

Submission Deadline: February 28, 2006
Web address: http://colloquium.upol.cz/
Email address: colloquium at centrum.cz

New York: Cradle of America's Cultural Plurality


New York has been a much contested place in American history and culture. As
the most important immigrant doorway to America it has always had a greater
share of cultural plurality than any other city on the Eastern Seaboard. New
York was understood as a social testing ground for the American melting pot
as well as a social laboratory for diversity. It consisted of ethnic
conclaves as well as cosmopolitan sections, its density of population
necessarily brought people of different social, ethnic and cultural
backgrounds together, fostering cooperation as well as antagonism,
integration as well as sectionalism (ghettoization). Its architecture has
been incorporated into the national iconography and popular culture. Its
culture has thrived on modernity, yet as each fast-changing place it
contains the discarded archaic traces of its past, often in sharp spatial
and ideological juxtaposition to one another (New York as Gotham). 
New York has become America's most visible representation. As a media
capitol it can spread its influence into remote corners of the world.

Our objectives:
The colloquium is conceived as an interdisciplinary enterprise. We welcome
papers from history, politics, literature, film, fine arts, sociology, and
media studies.
We want to study the diversity of New York from various perspectives and in
various contexts. We want to examine the forms and models of democratic
plurality in New York.
Related to these issues are larger questions such as:
- How fitting are the New York models for other parts of America or Europe?
Are such forms and models translatable to different social and cultural
contexts?
- How much plurality can America contain without losing its social,
political and cultural integrity and collective identity? What are the
assets and the hazards of multiculturalism? 

Location
It is held in a highly attractive, historical place with a well-preserved
Renaissance and Baroque historical centre, second largest to Prague, in the
Czech Republic. Palacky University is situated in the center of the old
town. It is easily accessible by express trains from Prague (ca 3 hours).
Organizers:
It is organized by the Czech and Slovak Association for American Studies and
by the Department of English and American Studies at Palacky University in
Olomouc in cooperation with the Embassy of the U.S.A. in Prague. 
The format
 The format of the Colloquium gives space to one longer plenary paper in the
morning (60 minutes) and two or three shorter presentations in the afternoon
(30-45 minutes), followed with discussion sessions. The lecturers are
encouraged to take a wider and more general perspective in order to address
a larger audience, consisting of university teachers of American Studies,
American Literature, or English language, and postgraduate and graduate
students. The evening program consists of films, concerts, poetry readings,
city tours, and other activities.
A selection of revised papers presented at the conference will be included
in a volume, to be edited by the Colloquium organizers and published by the
Palacky University. The lectures are from Monday to Thursday. 

We pay: 
- a nice single room in the University Hostel for foreign lecturers, close
to the town's historical center and the university 

We unfortunately cannot cover:
- travel costs and per diem

We also offer: 
- the company of 10 other interesting speakers
- a small but very motivated audience of some 40 university teachers,
postgraduates and graduate students from Central, Western and Eastern
Europe. 
- longer papers (30-45 minutes)
- enough time for discussion 
- a rich cultural program, excellent opportunities for socializing 
- a bus sightseeing trip on Friday 
- the papers will be published in a collection of papers

For further information please consult the Colloquium website
http://colloquium.upol.cz/ or contact the program coordinator Robert Hysek
at: < colloquium at centrum.cz>



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Dec 13 16:02:50 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:02:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright
References: <BFC45048.166F2%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<AA401177-3DBA-47DA-818A-07A15CA9A2BA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005301c60028$9413df60$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> 
> On Dec 13, 2005, at 11:17 AM, David Graham wrote:
> 
>> Garrison Keillor tells me it's the birthday of James Wright.
> 
> Come on! What does HE know?

Nothing.  But he has advisors with access to lots of reference books.

--Bob G.



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Dec 13 20:44:59 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 01:44:59 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright
References: <BFC45048.166F2%grahamd@ripon.edu><AA401177-3DBA-47DA-818A-07A15CA9A2BA@earthlink.net>
	<005301c60028$9413df60$a3b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00e501c6004f$fe9fa6d0$be008b56@PC232542321673>

Unfair, Bob!

Garrison Keillor is one of the (few?) things you have in the States that we 
don't have here (like Staples and Borders) that we'd be better off with.

Don't knock it (him).

At least your poets laureate are just for Christmas and not for life.

Robin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] James Wright


>>
>> On Dec 13, 2005, at 11:17 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> Garrison Keillor tells me it's the birthday of James Wright.
>>
>> Come on! What does HE know?
>
> Nothing.  But he has advisors with access to lots of reference books.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 10:32:02 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:32:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>

Garrison Keillor's "Writer's Almanac" has (gasp!) a poem with visual
elements today.

http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/
Jeff Newberry

--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 10:45:42 2005
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:45:42 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60512140745p53a5edebj9b30668b742ea191@mail.gmail.com>

Lokked at in total, it's a figure without legs but it has a tail . . .
or something.

- Jim, concretely

On 12/14/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> Garrison Keillor's "Writer's Almanac" has (gasp!) a poem with visual
> elements today.
>
> http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/
> Jeff Newberry
>
> --
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>                                                    --Miguel de Unamuno
>
> Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
>


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homepages: http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 11:47:47 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:47:47 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512140847w7acfb20an9fece9f57444f2c1@mail.gmail.com>

You can be sure if it's something Bob likes it will be the (lucky)
work of his assistants, but if it's something he doesn't then it must
be old Garrison himself, continuing his lifework of rubbing Bob
Grumman the wrong way and faking an affection for poetry just to get a
rise out people on this list.

c



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Dec 14 12:45:49 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:45:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
References: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab0512140847w7acfb20an9fece9f57444f2c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501c600d6$39a20a80$01e03652@ANNY>

It looks very nice to me, but then I always support Keillor's work, which I 
find impressive and receives my applause,

Anny

From: "Chris Lott" <chris.lott at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:47 PM


> You can be sure if it's something Bob likes it will be the (lucky)
> work of his assistants, but if it's something he doesn't then it must
> be old Garrison himself, continuing his lifework of rubbing Bob
> Grumman the wrong way and faking an affection for poetry just to get a
> rise out people on this list.
>
> c
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Dec 14 16:00:15 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:00:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
References: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab0512140847w7acfb20an9fece9f57444f2c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401c600f1$62ea5300$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> You can be sure if it's something Bob likes it will be the (lucky)
> work of his assistants, but if it's something he doesn't then it must
> be old Garrison himself, continuing his lifework of rubbing Bob
> Grumman the wrong way and faking an affection for poetry just to get a
> rise out people on this list.
> 
> c
 
Wow, you know me well, Chris.  Possibly even as well as you know poetry. 

--Bob G. 



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 16:03:49 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:03:49 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
In-Reply-To: <002401c600f1$62ea5300$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab0512140847w7acfb20an9fece9f57444f2c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<002401c600f1$62ea5300$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512141303y7760d066q15abc7a5d7020f4d@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/14/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Wow, you know me well, Chris.  Possibly even as well as you know poetry.

It's a gift borne of your postings of this list. I can't thank you
enough, believe me. Poetry is much more complicated than the Bob
Grumman you put on display here...

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Dec 14 16:09:37 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:09:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
References: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006401c600f2$b163ef40$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Yep, Keillor is voyaging out into the Unknown of Concrete Poetry, Circa 1950.  Fun poem, but no indication to me that Keillor is not a Philistine.

(Please don't tell me the poem was written long after 1950.)

--Bob G.
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 16:35:16 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:35:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wine Advice?
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512141335sdc4c1b6xefe214e3b97c6873@mail.gmail.com>

Any wine affiicianados on the list?  Wine enthusiasts?  Whiners?

Anyone willing to offer me some advice on purchasing a bottle of wine?

If so, please backchannel me.

Thanks much,

Jeff Newberry

--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Dec 14 19:48:13 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:48:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
References: <731bb17a0512140732k2a2c89a3gd4ebae4658bc9bbc@mail.gmail.com><9b1b9dab0512140847w7acfb20an9fece9f57444f2c1@mail.gmail.com><002401c600f1$62ea5300$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512141303y7760d066q15abc7a5d7020f4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301c60115$6d3d4230$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Chris, I vaguely recall thinking, uh, less badly of you at one time than I 
do now.  How you could possibly say I like only poems written by my friends 
(or "assistants") is beyond me.  I've often praised all kinds of poems at 
New-Poetry.  I even like many of the poems in Keillor's anthology.  My 
position has always been that it is unfair, and bad for poetry, that such a 
small segment of what's out there is given any chance of winning recognition 
because of the influentials, like Keillor and Vendler and Logan and Bloom 
and Collins, who only anthologize and/or discuss a narrow portion of what 
contemporary poets are composing, NOT that all the poetry they value is bad. 
I also believe, yes, that people able only to appreciate poems that, except 
for subject matter, could have been written fifty or more years ago are 
philistines.  I'm on record as believing that people not able to appreciate 
such poems are philistines, too.

--Bob G. 




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 14 21:14:33 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:14:33 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
Message-ID: <200512150149.jBF1nPoc090656@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

50 years ago was 1955. Will this "50 year rule" rule change---
I mean there's been a lot of "innovative" poetry that got talked about
between 55-65 and each decade since then relatively less.
so be curious if you're alive in 2035 and 1985 will be the cut-off date
if the 50 year rule will still hold?


----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
>Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 4:48 PM
>

> Chris, I vaguely recall thinking, uh, less badly of you at one time than I
> do now.  How you could possibly say I like only poems written by my friends
> (or "assistants") is beyond me.  I've often praised all kinds of poems at
> New-Poetry.  I even like many of the poems in Keillor's anthology.  My
> position has always been that it is unfair, and bad for poetry, that such a
> small segment of what's out there is given any chance of winning recognition
> because of the influentials, like Keillor and Vendler and Logan and Bloom
> and Collins, who only anthologize and/or discuss a narrow portion of what
> contemporary poets are composing, NOT that all the poetry they value is bad.
> I also believe, yes, that people able only to appreciate poems that, except
> for subject matter, could have been written fifty or more years ago are
> philistines.  I'm on record as believing that people not able to appreciate
> such poems are philistines, too.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Dec 14 21:24:16 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:24:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
References: <200512150149.jBF1nPoc090656@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <009301c6011e$a5dcde80$5bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> 50 years ago was 1955. Will this "50 year rule" rule change---
> I mean there's been a lot of "innovative" poetry that got talked about
> between 55-65 and each decade since then relatively less.
> so be curious if you're alive in 2035 and 1985 will be the cut-off date
> if the 50 year rule will still hold?

Who knows?  The "fifty" is, needless to say, approximate.  I really think 
that the influential people discussing poetry and putting together 
anthologies of it will within ten years automatically include language 
poetry (by my definition), which I consider to have been more or less new 
around 1970.  So the fifty would hold.

Actually, I shouldn't have said, "poems that, except for subject matter, 
could have been written fifty years ago," but "poems of a kind that, except 
for subject matter, were WIDELY written fifty years ago."  That's because 
there was some good poetry back then of kinds still not in the Keillorstream 
today.

When optimistic, I feel that my kinds of poetries will be part of the 
mainstream by 2020, in which case the magic number of years to the poetry of 
value not written about by someone like Logan would drop, probably, to 
thirty, as I see c. 1990 as the date of the beginning of the next wave of 
different poetry after my generation's--mostly electronic stuff--the wave 
that, if I'm alive and influential, I may well be attacked for ignoring. 
But not if a list of schools of poetry is finally made, kept up-to-date and 
widely circulated, something I believe will happen well before 2020.  I will 
probably not be able to write well about the newest poetries, but I will not 
ignore them.

--Bob G. 




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Dec 14 21:36:18 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:36:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Motion cheers online poem archive 
Message-ID: <99.6c851f5c.30d230a2@aol.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4524646.stm
 
Motion cheers online poem archive  
 
Motion's 'dream recording' would be one of Thomas Hardy 
UK Poet Laureate Andrew Motion has celebrated the successful start of the 
ambitious audio Poetry Online Archive. 
Together with British recording producer Richard Carrington, Motion 
instigated the project, which aims to ensure that every significant Anglophone poet 
from anywhere in the world is captured reading their verse. 
 
That recording is then put on the internet. The site launched earlier this 
month. 
 
"It's really a colossal PR job for poetry," Motion told BBC World Service's 
The Word programme. 
 
"I imagine we will end up with hundreds of poems on it." 
 
Sense of a poem 
 
The archive has recordings from the 19th century onwards, when recordings of 
poets reading their work were first created. 
 
Although there are significant gaps - recordings of AE Housman, Thomas Hardy 
and DH Lawrence, for example, do not exist - Motion explained how the he felt 
the value of the site is highlighted in one of the older recordings, made in 
the 1932, of WB Yeats, which he described as "mesmeric". 
 
"It makes the fundamental point about the value of the archive very clearly," 
he said. 
 
"The Beowulf poet knew the meaning of a poem. He would have understand that 
it has as much to do with the sound that the poem makes as it has to do with 
the page sense that a poem has. 
 
 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Dec 14 22:29:49 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 03:29:49 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Motion cheers online poem archive 
References: <99.6c851f5c.30d230a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <038b01c60127$ce6ba030$be008b56@PC232542321673>

Constant Reader Throws Up.

I remember an argument a few years ago with the Real Lady, who was and is 
godmother to Motion's daughter.

"Why is it, Robin," (she said, sighing, Marion having a neat line in sighs) 
"that everyone hates Andrew?  Is it because he's so successful, or so 
handsome, or so rich?"

I didn't have the nerve to say that the basic reason is that Andrew Motion 
is as a poet simply terminally boring.

I wouldn't cross the road to see him die.

If the English had the guts they were bred with, the Poet Laureate when 
Motion was appointed would have been Walcott.  Failing him, U.A.Fanthorpe.

            :-(

R.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:36 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Motion cheers online poem archive


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4524646.stm

Motion cheers online poem archive

Motion's 'dream recording' would be one of Thomas Hardy
UK Poet Laureate Andrew Motion has celebrated the successful start of the 
ambitious audio Poetry Online Archive.
Together with British recording producer Richard Carrington, Motion 
instigated the project, which aims to ensure that every significant 
Anglophone poet from anywhere in the world is captured reading their verse. 




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 15 03:07:03 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 00:07:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
Message-ID: <200512150741.jBF7fArZ139916@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

okay---sounds good. Chris

----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Keillor Up to No Good (Again)
>Date: Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 6:24 PM
>

>
>
>> 50 years ago was 1955. Will this "50 year rule" rule change---
>> I mean there's been a lot of "innovative" poetry that got talked about
>> between 55-65 and each decade since then relatively less.
>> so be curious if you're alive in 2035 and 1985 will be the cut-off date
>> if the 50 year rule will still hold?
>
> Who knows?  The "fifty" is, needless to say, approximate.  I really think
> that the influential people discussing poetry and putting together
> anthologies of it will within ten years automatically include language
> poetry (by my definition), which I consider to have been more or less new
> around 1970.  So the fifty would hold.
>
> Actually, I shouldn't have said, "poems that, except for subject matter,
> could have been written fifty years ago," but "poems of a kind that, except
> for subject matter, were WIDELY written fifty years ago."  That's because
> there was some good poetry back then of kinds still not in the Keillorstream
> today.
>
> When optimistic, I feel that my kinds of poetries will be part of the
> mainstream by 2020, in which case the magic number of years to the poetry of
> value not written about by someone like Logan would drop, probably, to
> thirty, as I see c. 1990 as the date of the beginning of the next wave of
> different poetry after my generation's--mostly electronic stuff--the wave
> that, if I'm alive and influential, I may well be attacked for ignoring.
> But not if a list of schools of poetry is finally made, kept up-to-date and
> widely circulated, something I believe will happen well before 2020.  I will
> probably not be able to write well about the newest poetries, but I will not
> ignore them.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 15 10:31:07 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:31:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraq Vet Poet
Message-ID: <BFC6E85A.167FF%grahamd@ripon.edu>



I've recently come across the first really impressive poetry I've seen from
a veteran of the Iraq war.  The name is Brian Turner, and his book (from
Alice James Press) is called *Here, Bullet*.  His bio note identifies him as
"former infantry team leader for the 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team."
There was a short notice on him in a recent *New Yorker*.

A sampling of poems here:

  http://www.fishousepoems.org/archives/brian_turner/index.shtml
  
And one example:

A Soldier's Arabic

   This is a strange new kind of war where you learn
  just as much as you are able to believe.
      E. Hemingway 

The word for love, Habib , is written from right
to left, starting where we would end it
and ending where we might begin.

Where we would end a war
another might take as a beginning,
or as an echo of history, recited again.

Speak the word for death, Maut ,
and you will hear the cursives of the wind
driven into the veil of the unknown.

This is a language made of blood.
It is made of sand, and time.
To be spoken, it must be earned.

Brian Turner 
A Soldier?s Arabic first appeared in Voices In Wartime Anthology , May 2005.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 15 10:48:45 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:48:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year
Message-ID: <BFC6EC7D.16804%grahamd@ripon.edu>

About Poetry has nominated its poetry books of the year for 2005.

http://poetry.about.com/od/poetrybooks/a/booksofyear2005.htm?nl=1

Ted Berrigan, June Jordan, Willie Perdomo & Suheir Hammad:  you got a
problem with their pix?  Well, then, nominate your own, right here on our
very own listserv.

Use this space below:














====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 11:19:58 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:19:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iraq Vet Poet
In-Reply-To: <BFC6E85A.167FF%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BFC6E85A.167FF%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512150819h5a1992c0o2a7ef1c4b50eeaa3@mail.gmail.com>

Turner has a good selection of poems in the new Georgia Review.

http://www.uga.edu/garev/fall05/turner.pdf

He's been on Poetry Daily, too.

I like what (little) I've read.

Jeff Newberry


On 12/15/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> I've recently come across the first really impressive poetry I've seen
> from a veteran of the Iraq war.  The name is Brian Turner, and his book
> (from Alice James Press) is called *Here, Bullet*.  His bio note identifies
> him as "former infantry team leader for the 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat
> Team."  There was a short notice on him in a recent *New Yorker*.
>
> A sampling of poems here:
>
>  *http://www.fishousepoems.org/archives/brian_turner/index.shtml
> *
>
>
> And one example:
>
> *A Soldier's Arabic
>
>    **This is a strange new kind of war where you learn
>   just as much as you are able to believe.
>       *E. Hemingway
>
> The word for love, *Habib *, is written from right
> to left, starting where we would end it
> and ending where we might begin.
>
> Where we would end a war
> another might take as a beginning,
> or as an echo of history, recited again.
>
> Speak the word for death, *Maut *,
> and you will hear the cursives of the wind
> driven into the veil of the unknown.
>
> This is a language made of blood.
> It is made of sand, and time.
> To be spoken, it must be earned.
>
> *Brian Turner
> *A Soldier?s Arabic *first appeared in *Voices In Wartime Anthology *, May
> 2005.
> *
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 15 11:32:20 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:32:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of the cradle...
Message-ID: <BFC6F6B4.16814%grahamd@ripon.edu>



Musical Shuttle

Night, expositor of love.
Seeing the sky for the first time
That year, I watched the summer constellations
Hang in air: Scorpio with
Half of heaven in his tail.
Breath, tissue of air, cat's cradle.
I walked the shore
Where cold rocks mourned in water
Like the planets lost in air.
Ocean was a low sound.
The gatekeeper suddenly gone,
Whatever the heart cried
Voice tied to dark sound.
The shuttle went way back then,
Hooking me up to the first song
That ever chimed in my head.
Under a sky gone slick with stars,
The aria tumbling forth:
Bird and star.
However those cadences
Rocked me in the learning years,
However that soft death sang --
Of star become a bird's pulse,
Of the spanned distances
Where the bird's breath eddied forth --
I recovered the lost ground.
The bird's throat
Bare as the sand on which I walked.
Love in his season
Had moved me with that song.

--Harvey Shapiro.  National Cold Storage Company:  New & Selected Poems.
Wesleyan UP, 1988.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From ggatza at daemen.edu  Thu Dec 15 11:45:29 2005
From: ggatza at daemen.edu (Geoffrey Gatza)
Date: 15 Dec 2005 16:45:29 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Your current info
Message-ID: <1134665129.14348.228921.sendUpdate@mx.plaxo.com>

new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu,

I'm updating my address book. Please take a moment to update me
with your latest contact info. Your information is stored in my
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Click the following link to correct or confirm your information: https://www.plaxo.com/edit_contact_info?r=38655066595-2762909-539654622

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P.S. I've included my current contact information below.  I've also attached a copy as a vCard.

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 | editor at blazevox.org
 | Editor, Publisher
 | 
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 | Kenmore, NY 14217
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Dec 15 07:13:15 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 06:13:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <BFC6EC7D.16804%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BFC6B9FB.A8CE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 12/15/05 9:48 AM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> Ted Berrigan, June Jordan, Willie Perdomo & Suheir Hammad:

Just looking at this list makes me thinks politics (not literary politics)
predominated in the selection.




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 14:21:47 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:21:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] You Better Watch Out, You Better Not Cry . . .
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512151121n64bff0fdi568f838a0cfb54ef@mail.gmail.com>

You better not pout.  I'm telling you why.

William Logan's at it again:
http://www.newcriterion.com/archives/24/12/jumping-the-shark/

Sing along, why don't you?

Jeff Newberry

--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Dec 15 15:00:50 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:00:50 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <BFC6B9FB.A8CE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <01d901c601b2$45e1a4e0$6d00a8c0@Emily>

Why? Because there aren't enough white guys?


-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Lake
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:13 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year

On 12/15/05 9:48 AM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> Ted Berrigan, June Jordan, Willie Perdomo & Suheir Hammad:

Just looking at this list makes me thinks politics (not literary
politics)
predominated in the selection.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 15 15:08:04 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:08:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <01d901c601b2$45e1a4e0$6d00a8c0@Emily>
Message-ID: <BFC72944.16849%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Willie Perdomo & Suheir Hammad are stars in the spoken word/slam scene, and
I suspect that the bias here has more to do with a preference for oral
performance than for politics per se.

It's not common to hear slam poets praise George Bush, I grant you. . . .

But you guys are missing the point of this little exercise:  don't nitpick
Bob Holman's predictable pix, make your *own* pix.

Right now.  That's an order.






on 12/15/05 2:00 PM, Anthony Robinson at antrobin at clipper.net wrote:

> Why? Because there aren't enough white guys?
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Lake
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:13 AM
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year
> 
> On 12/15/05 9:48 AM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Ted Berrigan, June Jordan, Willie Perdomo & Suheir Hammad:
> 
> Just looking at this list makes me thinks politics (not literary
> politics)
> predominated in the selection.
> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Thu Dec 15 15:54:05 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:54:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
Message-ID: <146.524fbb17.30d331ed@aol.com>

 
And most of them aren't very good poets.
 
In a message dated 12/15/2005 3:07:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

Willie  Perdomo & Suheir Hammad are stars in the spoken word/slam scene, and
I  suspect that the bias here has more to do with a preference for  oral
performance than for politics per se.

It's not common to hear  slam poets praise George Bush, I grant you. . . .

But you guys are  missing the point of this little exercise:  don't nitpick
Bob Holman's  predictable pix, make your *own* pix.

Right now.  That's an  order.





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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Dec 15 09:01:27 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:01:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <01d901c601b2$45e1a4e0$6d00a8c0@Emily>
Message-ID: <BFC6D357.A8D6%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 12/15/05 2:00 PM, "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net> wrote:

> Why? Because there aren't enough white guys?
 Ted Berrigan's a white guy. Don't know about Perdomo. But what seems to
distinguish at least the first two poets listed is their political leftism
rather than their poetic excellence. I've never been impressed with their
poetry, though I've used a couple of Jordan's in a creative writing class as
an example of a political poem when I asked my students to write one.

Paul Lake



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Dec 15 17:12:05 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:12:05 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ted Kooser's pick
Message-ID: <006a01c601c4$95c45e50$8fd83052@ANNY>

Fifteen

The boys who fled my father's house in fear 
Of what his wrath would cost them if he found 
Them nibbling slowly at his daughter's ear, 
Would vanish out the back without a sound, 
And glide just like the shadow of a crow, 
To wait beside the elm tree in the snow. 
Something quite deadly rumbled in his voice. 
He sniffed the air as if he knew the scent 
Of teenage boys, and asked, "What was that noise?" 
Then I'd pretend to not know what he meant, 
Stand mutely by, my heart immense with dread, 
As Father set the traps and went to bed. 


Reprinted from "The Alarming Beauty of the Sky," published by Red Hen Press, 2005, by permission of the author. Copyright (c) 1998 by Leslie Monsour. This weekly column is supported by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress, and the Department of English at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. This column does not accept unsolicited poetry.

******************************

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Dec 15 17:13:06 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:13:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year
References: <BFC6B9FB.A8CE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <005901c601c4$ba0d2800$6bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> Ted Berrigan, June Jordan, Willie Perdomo & Suheir Hammad:
>
> Just looking at this list makes me thinks politics (not literary politics)
> predominated in the selection.

--Paul Lake

Which one is the homosexual?

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Dec 15 17:19:00 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:19:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
References: <BFC72944.16849%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006501c601c5$8cd19b90$6bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Willie Perdomo & Suheir Hammad are stars in the spoken word/slam scene, 
> and
> I suspect that the bias here has more to do with a preference for oral
> performance than for politics per se.
>
> It's not common to hear slam poets praise George Bush, I grant you. . . .
>
> But you guys are missing the point of this little exercise:  don't nitpick
> Bob Holman's predictable pix, make your *own* pix.

I agree.

> Right now.  That's an order.

Maybe I will, but it's a lot of trouble to go through the poetry books I've 
recently read--just to find them in my house would be a major chore--and 
determine which ones are 2005 books (I mostly read older books), and which 
are worth nominating.

But I'm bothering to get into this thread mainly to re-make an old 
suggestion  of mine: that we pick the best poetry book of 2000; or 1995; or 
1985.  I think that'd be more interesting.

--Bob G. 




From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Thu Dec 15 17:57:47 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:57:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best of 2000?
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C20@mail.emerson.edu>

what, you ask, was the best book of poetry 
in 2000?  

according to Bob Holman (whose best 2005 list
started this thread) it was the following:

"Laugh at the End of the World: Collected Comic 
Poems 1969-1999 is book of the year! The most 
self-destructive poet in town belts this one so far 
out of the stadium it boomerangs him flat. [The 
author] deserves a Nobel."



. . . Holman's taste has obviously not improved.


















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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Dec 15 18:37:17 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:37:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best of 2000?
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C20@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <008701c601d0$7ce55ef0$6bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

what, you ask, was the best book of poetry 
in 2000?  

according to Bob Holman (whose best 2005 list
started this thread) it was the following:

"Laugh at the End of the World: Collected Comic 
Poems 1969-1999 is book of the year! The most 
self-destructive poet in town belts this one so far 
out of the stadium it boomerangs him flat. [The 
author] deserves a Nobel."



. . . Holman's taste has obviously not improved.


Not surprisingly, Knotthead, you missed the point of my suggestion: it is to make picks for a year five years (or ten or twenty years) later, not as the years ends, or just after it ends.

--Bob G.




















--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 18:48:41 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:48:41 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <006501c601c5$8cd19b90$6bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BFC72944.16849%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<006501c601c5$8cd19b90$6bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512151548g160f4206p76d391707247dc24@mail.gmail.com>

How about... "best books that come spontaneously to mind read in
approximately the last year listed off-the-cuff knowing full well such
a list will be missing many that come to mind later?"

Here's mine:

Josh Corey - Fourier Series
not really a book of poems, but... Sentence (two issues)
Ben Lerner - Lichtenberg Figures
Search Party: Collected Poems of William Matthews
the "restored" Ariel by Sylvia Plath
Jack Gilbert - Monolithos
Frank O'Hara - Lunch Poems
James Wright - To a Blossoming Pear Tree
Roethke - Poets Notebook
Pessoa - Book of Disquiet
Creeley's Collected Poems 1945-1990
Rachel Loden - Hotel Imperium

c



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Dec 15 20:12:10 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:12:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] new Chicago Review
Message-ID: <bd.66d14b09.30d36e6a@aol.com>

Date:    Thu, 15 Dec 2005 10:57:10 -0600
From:    Joshua Kotin <jkotin at UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: new CHICAGO REVIEW

The fall issue of CHICAGO REVIEW is now available.

Please find ordering information below along with a FREE BOOK listserv 
special --- and visit our website 
<http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/> 
(http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/) to order.

The 192-page, single issue includes:

POEMS by C.D. Wright, Devin Johnston, Alan Bernheimer, Joel Felix, 
Arkadii Dragomoschchenko, Peter Larkin, Peter O'Leary, Geraldine Monk, 
Ray DiPalma, Merrill Gilfillan, Gavin Selerie, and Medbh McGuckian

FICTION by Jerzy Ficowski, Diana George, and Brian Lennon

ESSAYS by John Wilkinson (on Marjorie Welish), Robert Archambeau (on 
James McMichael), and Paul Hoover (on the Chicago literary scene)

as well as an INTERVIEW, REVIEWS, & NOTES

Please see Ron Silliman's weblog for reviews of Ray DiPalma 
<http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2005/12/image-set-by-ray-dipalma-from-east.ht
ml>'s 
and C.D. Wright 
<http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2005/12/when-i-first-glanced-at-c.html>'s 
contributions.

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SPECIAL SUBSCRIPTION OFFER FOR THE HOLIDAYS

As a special offer to list members, CR is offering a FREE book from 
either FLOOD EDITIONS or OMNIDAWN with the purchase of a subscription 
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Subscribe to CR for two or more years and we'll send you one of the 
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FLOOD EDITIONS <http://www.floodeditions.com/>

Jennifer Moxley, Often Capital.
First published as two separate chapbooks in 1995 and 1996, Often 
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capital I thought, but thankfully not always."

Ronald Johnson, Radi os.
First published in 1977, Ronald Johnson's Radi os revises the first four 
books of Paradise Lost by excising words, discovering a modern and 
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Merrill Gilfillan, Undanceable.
With exuberance and economy, Merrill Gilfillan's Undanceable evokes the 
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Pam Rehm, Short Works.
Small Works is Pam Rehm's sixth book of poetry. While moving towards an 
ever more spare clarity,
Rehm awakens the moral senses through bewilderment, impatience, and 
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OMNIDAWN <http://www.omnidawn.com/>

Norma Cole, Spinoza in Her Youth.
Norma Cole's rich and rigorous poems delight in and disrupt the framing 
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Keith Waldrop, The Real Subject, Queries and Conjectures of Jacob 
Delafon with sample poems.
Not exactly a novel and not really a poem, The Real Subject contains 
some verses and is not without characters. Jacob Delafon, whose musings 
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(with even less system) about what he has seen, heard, what he comes up 
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Also available in this offer: Devin Johnston, Aversions; Martha Ronk, In 
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Please see CR's website <http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/> 
for information on forthcoming issues.

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Thank you for your support,

Joshua Kotin

* * * * * * * *
Chicago Review
5801 South Kenwood Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60637

http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 15 20:47:58 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:47:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0512151548g160f4206p76d391707247dc24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFC778EE.1687E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Thanks, Chris.  I would have thought that, on a listserv devoted to
contemporary poetry, this request of mine wouldn't have been such a stumper
for people!

Never heard of Ben Lerner, I don't think.  Say more about him, or post one?



on 12/15/05 5:48 PM, Chris Lott at chris.lott at gmail.com wrote:


How about... "best books that come spontaneously to mind read in
approximately the last year listed off-the-cuff knowing full well such
a list will be missing many that come to mind later?"

Here's mine:

Josh Corey - Fourier Series
not really a book of poems, but... Sentence (two issues)
Ben Lerner - Lichtenberg Figures
Search Party: Collected Poems of William Matthews
the "restored" Ariel by Sylvia Plath
Jack Gilbert - Monolithos
Frank O'Hara - Lunch Poems
James Wright - To a Blossoming Pear Tree
Roethke - Poets Notebook
Pessoa - Book of Disquiet
Creeley's Collected Poems 1945-1990
Rachel Loden - Hotel Imperium

c

_______________________________________________



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Thu Dec 15 21:12:38 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:12:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
Message-ID: <20051216021238.2769D13CEA@smapp04.siteprotect.com>

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 15 21:32:48 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:32:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <20051216021238.2769D13CEA@smapp04.siteprotect.com>
Message-ID: <BFC7836F.16884%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 12/15/05 8:12 PM, opus40-01 at opus40.org at opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote:


Not So The Chairs, Donald Finkel

The Bad Man, Dennis Doherty
---------------------------------------------------



Dennis Doherty's yet another poet with whose work I'm not familiar.
Probably he isn't the Dennis Doherty who was a singer in the Mamas & The
Papas, right?

Got any of his poems handy for posting?

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 00:12:06 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:12:06 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
In-Reply-To: <BFC778EE.1687E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <9b1b9dab0512151548g160f4206p76d391707247dc24@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFC778EE.1687E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512152112p60db2310l12f5b1f722a26e01@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/15/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:>  Never heard of Ben Lerner, I don't think.> Say more about him, or post one?
The poems in _The Lichtenberg Figures_ are sonnets of a very currentkind. Gina Trapani's blog turned me onto his work. The poem that firstcaught my eye was this one, obvious allusion and all:
***The dark collects our empties, empties our ashtrays.Did you mean "this could go on forever" in a good way?Up in the fragrant rafters, moths seek out a finer dust.Please feel free to cue or cut
the lights. Along the road of magnitudes, a glyph,portable, narrow?Damn. I've lost it. But its shadow. Castin the long run. As the dark touches us up.Earlier you asked if I would enter data like a room, well,
either the sun has begun to burnits manuscripts or I'm an idiot, an idiotwith my eleven semiprecious rings. Real snowon the stage. Fake blood on the snow. Could this go
on forever in a good way? A brain left lace from age or lightning.The chicken is a little dry and/or you've ruined my life.
***I don't have the book handy, but here are three poems that werepublished online in Conjunctions:
 ?
When a longing exceeds its object, a suburb is founded.Goatsuckers spar in the linden. The redskins are hunted.When the hunt exceeds its object, the past achievespubescence. History pausesfor emphasis. After these poems are published,
money will be no object.Money will be a gray bird known for mocking other birds.The stars will be adjusted for inflationso that the dead can continue livingin the manner to which they've grown accustomed.
When a dream of convenience begins to dream itself,the neighborhood's last bamboos reel in their roots.The children make love `execution style,'then hold each other like moments of silence.


?
My death was first runner-up at the 1996 Kansas State Wrestling   Championships (157 lbs).My death is the author of The Complete Posthumous Poetry of C?sar   Vallejo.My death was the first death in my familyto ever graduate from college.My death graduated from The University of California, Berkeley.
Your death was the 1996 Kansas State WrestlingChampion (157 lbs).Your death is the author of C?sar Vallejo's Trilce.Your death was the third death in your familyto deliver a commencement addressat The University of California, Berkeley.
Her death doesn't care about your death's fame or physique.Her death is the author of Tungsten, C?sar Vallejo's social realist   experiment.Her death likes to run her hands through what's left of my death's hair.Her death would like to start a family.


?
The sky narrates snow. I narrate my name in the snow.Snow piled in paragraphs. Darkling snow. Geno-snowand pheno-snow. I staple snow to the ground.
In medieval angelology, there are nine orders of snow.A vindication of snow in the form of snow.A jealous snow. An omni-snow. Snow immolation.
Do you remember that winter it snowed?There were bodies everywhere. Obese, carrot-nosed.A snow of translucent hexagonal signifiers. Meta-snow.
Sand replaced with snow. Snowpaper. A window of snowopened onto the snow. Snow replaced with sand.A sandman. Obese, carrot-nosed. Tiny swastikas
of snow. Vallejo's unpublished snow.Real snow on the stage. Fake blood on the snow.

c


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Dec 16 03:58:31 2005
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 02:58:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ted Kooser's pick
In-Reply-To: <006a01c601c4$95c45e50$8fd83052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <BFC7DDD7.A8E6%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 12/15/05 4:12 PM, "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:

> Fifteen
> 
> The boys who fled my father's house in fear
> Of what his wrath would cost them if he found
> Them nibbling slowly at his daughter's ear,
> Would vanish out the back without a sound,
> And glide just like the shadow of a crow,
> To wait beside the elm tree in the snow.
> Something quite deadly rumbled in his voice.
> He sniffed the air as if he knew the scent
> Of teenage boys, and asked, "What was that noise?"
> Then I'd pretend to not know what he meant,
> Stand mutely by, my heart immense with dread,
> As Father set the traps and went to bed.
> 
> 
> Reprinted from "The Alarming Beauty of the Sky," published by Red Hen Press,
> 2005, by permission of the author. Copyright (c) 1998 by Leslie Monsour. This
> weekly column is supported by The Poetry Foundation, The Library of Congress,
> and the Department of English at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. This
> column does not accept unsolicited poetry.
> 
> ******************************
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

I?m a fan of Leslie Monsour whom I met at the West Chester poetry
conference, so it?s good to see her getting some well-deserved?and somewhat
rare?attention.

Paul Lake
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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Dec 16 11:12:41 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:12:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] You Better Watch Out, You Better Not Cry . . .
Message-ID: <20051216161241.547B513CFF@smapp04.siteprotect.com>

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Dec 16 11:26:19 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:26:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
Message-ID: <BFC846CA.168CB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I'll put in another plug for the wonderful ongoing series from the Library
of America, the American Poets Project, which I discovered in 2005, though
not all volumes were published this year.

If you don't know the series, they are compact selected editions, hardback,
each briefly introduced by a poet or critic.  They retail for about $20,
though I see Amazon prices are running under $14.

There are some specialty volumes (World War II poets, American Wits, etc.),
but most of the books are editions of either canonical modern poets
(Whitman, Poe, Williams, Roethke, Millay, Berryman) or more "minor" figures
(Kenneth Fearing, Amy Lowell, Yvor Winters, Karl Shapiro, Samuel Menashe).

I believe I've praised the Roethke volume previously:  really excellent, and
would be a fine teaching text.  I've also greatly enjoyed the Fearing,
Winters, Williams, and Millay.  Every book I've looked at in this series is
exceptionally well done.

One of the newest & most welcome items is *The Essential Gwendolyn Brooks*,
edited by Elizabeth Alexander.  The title is right-on: a long overdue career
survey, replacing (let's hope) the horribly outdated 1963 book that's still
in every Borders in the land.

More info:

http://www.americanpoetsproject.org/


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Dec 16 11:31:59 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:31:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
Message-ID: <20051216163159.BD64113D00@smapp04.siteprotect.com>

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Dec 16 11:46:26 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:46:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <20051216163159.BD64113D00@smapp04.siteprotect.com>
Message-ID: <BFC84B81.168D1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

No, not partcularly cheap--nor are the big black Library of America volumes,
for that matter.  I don't own nearly as many of those as I'd like to.  I've
not  been able to resist some:  Whitman, Frost (by far the best Frost
edition out there), Stevens.

I'm also a big fan of the Everyman Pocket Poets series, which *are* cheaper.
Whenever I'm in a waiting room or airport terminal, I usually have my
Whitman or Stevens or Hardy or Beat Poets or Blues Poems tucked in my
pocket.

But most public libraries have at least a good sampling of the LOAs as well
as (more and more) the littler books.  I guess $20 is on the cheap side
these days, at least for a hardback.  Amazon is letting the Brooks go for
$13.40, though, which is good these days even for a paperback, no?

My personal plan is to use as many as possible as teaching texts, and get
'em free as desk copies!

To my mind the most valuable editions, aside from teaching purposes, are the
ones making a case for the "minor" poets.  I've really found the Winters and
Amy Lowell volumes, in particular, eye-opening.  And if you're one of those
readers who still thinks of Millay as a sugary minor voice, her edition
might well change your mind.



on 12/16/05 10:31 AM, opus40-01 at opus40.org at opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote:




They're not cheap, are they?



I did a bookfinder search on a couple of titles. You can get the Whitman
used for 8 bux, the Winters for 11.



On Fri Dec 16 11:26 , David Graham  sent:

I'll put in another plug for the wonderful ongoing series from the Library
of America, the American Poets Project, which I discovered in 2005, though
not all volumes were published this year.

If you don't know the series, they are compact selected editions, hardback,
each briefly introduced by a poet or critic.  They retail for about $20,
though I see Amazon prices are running under $14.

There are some specialty volumes (World War II poets, American Wits, etc.),
but most of the books are editions of either canonical modern poets
(Whitman, Poe, Williams, Roethke, Millay, Berryman) or more "minor" figures
(Kenneth Fearing, Amy Lowell, Yvor Winters, Karl Shapiro, Samuel Menashe).

I believe I've praised the Roethke volume previously:  really excellent, and
would be a fine teaching text.  I've also greatly enjoyed the Fearing,
Winters, Williams, and Millay.  Every book I've looked at in this series is
exceptionally well done.

One of the newest & most welcome items is *The Essential Gwendolyn Brooks*,
edited by Elizabeth Alexander.  The title is right-on: a long overdue career
survey, replacing (let's hope) the horribly outdated 1963 book that's still
in every Borders in the land.

More info:

http://www.americanpoetsproject.org/
<parse.pl?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanpoetsproject.org%2F>





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From tad at opus40.org  Fri Dec 16 11:52:51 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:52:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
References: <BFC84B81.168D1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001001c60261$27270630$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Best books/American Poets ProjectNone of us have any right to judge who are the minor poets of the past 50 years, which is why I appreciate you putting the word in quotes, and would smack Logan for not doing it.

Anyway, here's a poem by Dennis Doherty.

I don't remember if NewPo posts show typographical shifts. If not, the first two lines, and "Was he?" in line four are in italics.

THE QUESTION'S ASKED

 

How could you love

what you didn't know?

I saw him once; I made him.

Was he? he is.

The dead take root and grow,

call trom their pooling rot to yours. 

Knock. And they love the living. Knock.

 

They pay us with their thrilling pain, 

grieve in the dreams of sleep-shot hounds, 

soak histories of what can't be borne.

So he speaks to me in leaves; rived nuts 

of beech trees; the spring-cream buds 

of dogwood; clod-brown spots

on lilies in lots of forgotten sun.

 

Words were birthed trom wounds, 

and each seeks out its place

like trenzied refugees who never knew 

their homes. Some overrun the mind. 

Others cluster like cells and bloom 

insurgent tumors, leeching cankers, 

pustulant, self-plumping wombs.

 

The dead forgive their ids with mutancy. 

Yellow begets bees and buttercups;

honey becomes home and heavy petting; 

drone is the chant of a kindled twig

that subsumes the woods to a choking smoke. 

Too bad that beauty's a cider press 

smashing juice trom groundfallen pulp.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 11:46 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project


  No, not partcularly cheap--nor are the big black Library of America volumes, for that matter.  I don't own nearly as many of those as I'd like to.  I've not  been able to resist some:  Whitman, Frost (by far the best Frost edition out there), Stevens.

  I'm also a big fan of the Everyman Pocket Poets series, which *are* cheaper.  Whenever I'm in a waiting room or airport terminal, I usually have my Whitman or Stevens or Hardy or Beat Poets or Blues Poems tucked in my pocket.

  But most public libraries have at least a good sampling of the LOAs as well as (more and more) the littler books.  I guess $20 is on the cheap side these days, at least for a hardback.  Amazon is letting the Brooks go for $13.40, though, which is good these days even for a paperback, no?

  My personal plan is to use as many as possible as teaching texts, and get 'em free as desk copies!

  To my mind the most valuable editions, aside from teaching purposes, are the ones making a case for the "minor" poets.  I've really found the Winters and Amy Lowell volumes, in particular, eye-opening.  And if you're one of those readers who still thinks of Millay as a sugary minor voice, her edition might well change your mind.



  on 12/16/05 10:31 AM, opus40-01 at opus40.org at opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote:





    They're not cheap, are they? 



    I did a bookfinder search on a couple of titles. You can get the Whitman used for 8 bux, the Winters for 11.



    On Fri Dec 16 11:26 , David Graham  sent:


      I'll put in another plug for the wonderful ongoing series from the Library
      of America, the American Poets Project, which I discovered in 2005, though
      not all volumes were published this year.

      If you don't know the series, they are compact selected editions, hardback,
      each briefly introduced by a poet or critic.  They retail for about $20,
      though I see Amazon prices are running under $14.

      There are some specialty volumes (World War II poets, American Wits, etc.),
      but most of the books are editions of either canonical modern poets
      (Whitman, Poe, Williams, Roethke, Millay, Berryman) or more "minor" figures
      (Kenneth Fearing, Amy Lowell, Yvor Winters, Karl Shapiro, Samuel Menashe).

      I believe I've praised the Roethke volume previously:  really excellent, and
      would be a fine teaching text.  I've also greatly enjoyed the Fearing,
      Winters, Williams, and Millay.  Every book I've looked at in this series is
      exceptionally well done.

      One of the newest & most welcome items is *The Essential Gwendolyn Brooks*,
      edited by Elizabeth Alexander.  The title is right-on: a long overdue career
      survey, replacing (let's hope) the horribly outdated 1963 book that's still
      in every Borders in the land.

      More info:

      http://www.americanpoetsproject.org/ <parse.pl?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanpoetsproject.org%2F> 






  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From almaginnes at aol.com  Fri Dec 16 12:09:33 2005
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:09:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <BFC84B81.168D1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8C7D07A9E79D4BE-1400-24AB@FWM-M12.sysops.aol.com>

Not a best of 2005 list, but some books I enjoyed in hte last year or so:
 
Late Wife--Claudia Emerson
The Precarious Rhetoric of Angels--George Looney
Especially Then--David Moolten
The Imrpobable Swerving of Atoms--Christopher Bursk\
Taboo--Yusef Komunyakaa
Waltzing Through the End Time-David Bottoms
The Book of Minutes--Cathy Smith Bowers
Gypsy With baby--Heather Ross Miller
Blue Cloth--Suzanne Cleary
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:46:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project


No, not partcularly cheap--nor are the big black Library of America volumes, for that matter.  I don't own nearly as many of those as I'd like to.  I've not  been able to resist some:  Whitman, Frost (by far the best Frost edition out there), Stevens.

I'm also a big fan of the Everyman Pocket Poets series, which *are* cheaper.  Whenever I'm in a waiting room or airport terminal, I usually have my Whitman or Stevens or Hardy or Beat Poets or Blues Poems tucked in my pocket.

But most public libraries have at least a good sampling of the LOAs as well as (more and more) the littler books.  I guess $20 is on the cheap side these days, at least for a hardback.  Amazon is letting the Brooks go for $13.40, though, which is good these days even for a paperback, no?

My personal plan is to use as many as possible as teaching texts, and get 'em free as desk copies!

To my mind the most valuable editions, aside from teaching purposes, are the ones making a case for the "minor" poets.  I've really found the Winters and Amy Lowell volumes, in particular, eye-opening.  And if you're one of those readers who still thinks of Millay as a sugary minor voice, her edition might well change your mind.



on 12/16/05 10:31 AM, opus40-01 at opus40.org at opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote:





They're not cheap, are they? 



I did a bookfinder search on a couple of titles. You can get the Whitman used for 8 bux, the Winters for 11.



On Fri Dec 16 11:26 , David Graham  sent:


I'll put in another plug for the wonderful ongoing series from the Library
of America, the American Poets Project, which I discovered in 2005, though
not all volumes were published this year.

If you don't know the series, they are compact selected editions, hardback,
each briefly introduced by a poet or critic.  They retail for about $20,
though I see Amazon prices are running under $14.

There are some specialty volumes (World War II poets, American Wits, etc.),
but most of the books are editions of either canonical modern poets
(Whitman, Poe, Williams, Roethke, Millay, Berryman) or more "minor" figures
(Kenneth Fearing, Amy Lowell, Yvor Winters, Karl Shapiro, Samuel Menashe).

I believe I've praised the Roethke volume previously:  really excellent, and
would be a fine teaching text.  I've also greatly enjoyed the Fearing,
Winters, Williams, and Millay.  Every book I've looked at in this series is
exceptionally well done.

One of the newest & most welcome items is *The Essential Gwendolyn Brooks*,
edited by Elizabeth Alexander.  The title is right-on: a long overdue career
survey, replacing (let's hope) the horribly outdated 1963 book that's still
in every Borders in the land.

More info:

http://www.americanpoetsproject.org/ <parse.pl?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanpoetsproject.org%2F> 






====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From almaginnes at aol.com  Fri Dec 16 12:13:08 2005
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:13:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <001001c60261$27270630$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
References: <BFC84B81.168D1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<001001c60261$27270630$6501a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <8C7D07B1EB5B846-FEC-2E0@MBLK-M04.sysops.aol.com>

Most of us would probably be posthumously tickled (I would say to death if that weren't redundant) to be acknowledged as a minor poet of our time by the Modern Library. 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: TheOldMole <tad at opus40.org>
Sent: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:52:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project


None of us have any right to judge who are the minor poets of the past 50 years, which is why I appreciate you putting the word in quotes, and would smack Logan for not doing it.
 
Anyway, here's a poem by Dennis Doherty.
 
I don't remember if NewPo posts show typographical shifts. If not, the first two lines, and "Was he?" in line four are in italics.
 
THE QUESTION'S ASKED
 
How could you love
what you didn't know?
I saw him once; I made him.
Was he? he is.
The dead take root and grow,
call trom their pooling rot to yours. 
Knock. And they love the living. Knock.
 
They pay us with their thrilling pain, 
grieve in the dreams of sleep-shot hounds, 
soak histories of what can't be borne.
So he speaks to me in leaves; rived nuts 
of beech trees; the spring-cream buds 
of dogwood; clod-brown spots
on lilies in lots of forgotten sun.
 
Words were birthed trom wounds, 
and each seeks out its place
like trenzied refugees who never knew 
their homes. Some overrun the mind. 
Others cluster like cells and bloom 
insurgent tumors, leeching cankers, 
pustulant, self-plumping wombs.
 
The dead forgive their ids with mutancy. 
Yellow begets bees and buttercups;
honey becomes home and heavy petting; 
drone is the chant of a kindled twig
that subsumes the woods to a choking smoke. 
Too bad that beauty's a cider press 
smashing juice trom groundfallen pulp.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: David Graham 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project


No, not partcularly cheap--nor are the big black Library of America volumes, for that matter.  I don't own nearly as many of those as I'd like to.  I've not  been able to resist some:  Whitman, Frost (by far the best Frost edition out there), Stevens.

I'm also a big fan of the Everyman Pocket Poets series, which *are* cheaper.  Whenever I'm in a waiting room or airport terminal, I usually have my Whitman or Stevens or Hardy or Beat Poets or Blues Poems tucked in my pocket.

But most public libraries have at least a good sampling of the LOAs as well as (more and more) the littler books.  I guess $20 is on the cheap side these days, at least for a hardback.  Amazon is letting the Brooks go for $13.40, though, which is good these days even for a paperback, no?

My personal plan is to use as many as possible as teaching texts, and get 'em free as desk copies!

To my mind the most valuable editions, aside from teaching purposes, are the ones making a case for the "minor" poets.  I've really found the Winters and Amy Lowell volumes, in particular, eye-opening.  And if you're one of those readers who still thinks of Millay as a sugary minor voice, her edition might well change your mind.



on 12/16/05 10:31 AM, opus40-01 at opus40.org at opus40-01 at opus40.org wrote:





They're not cheap, are they? 



I did a bookfinder search on a couple of titles. You can get the Whitman used for 8 bux, the Winters for 11.



On Fri Dec 16 11:26 , David Graham  sent:


I'll put in another plug for the wonderful ongoing series from the Library
of America, the American Poets Project, which I discovered in 2005, though
not all volumes were published this year.

If you don't know the series, they are compact selected editions, hardback,
each briefly introduced by a poet or critic.  They retail for about $20,
though I see Amazon prices are running under $14.

There are some specialty volumes (World War II poets, American Wits, etc.),
but most of the books are editions of either canonical modern poets
(Whitman, Poe, Williams, Roethke, Millay, Berryman) or more "minor" figures
(Kenneth Fearing, Amy Lowell, Yvor Winters, Karl Shapiro, Samuel Menashe).

I believe I've praised the Roethke volume previously:  really excellent, and
would be a fine teaching text.  I've also greatly enjoyed the Fearing,
Winters, Williams, and Millay.  Every book I've looked at in this series is
exceptionally well done.

One of the newest & most welcome items is *The Essential Gwendolyn Brooks*,
edited by Elizabeth Alexander.  The title is right-on: a long overdue career
survey, replacing (let's hope) the horribly outdated 1963 book that's still
in every Borders in the land.

More info:

http://www.americanpoetsproject.org/ <parse.pl?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanpoetsproject.org%2F> 






====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 16 12:50:34 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:50:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <BFC84B81.168D1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BFC84B81.168D1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <CB1D9D31-89E2-413B-8D01-F1D81E510B05@earthlink.net>


On Dec 16, 2005, at 11:46 AM, David Graham wrote:

> My personal plan is to use as many as possible as teaching texts,  
> and get 'em free as desk copies!

Sure, let the cost of those freebies be borne by your students.

Hal        "Time is what keeps us waiting."

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Dec 16 14:11:22 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:11:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] You Better Watch Out, You Better Not Cry . . .
References: <20051216161241.547B513CFF@smapp04.siteprotect.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c60274$813601e0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Many poets publish far too much; but, in the long run, the longest of runs, the niggardly turtle probably has the advantage over the profligate hare-he leaves less junk for the future's derision. (If you think this doesn't matter, consider how high Kipling's standing might be if he'd been more circumspect.)

Leaving behind huge amounts of junk doesn't seem to have hurt the reputation of either Wordsworth or Whitman.

--Bob G.

















  On Thu Dec 15 14:21 , Jeff Newberry sent:



    You better not pout. I'm telling you why.
    William Logan's at it again: http://www.newcriterion.com/archives/24/12/jumping-the-shark/
    Sing along, why don't you?
    Jeff Newberry

    -- 
    "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
    --Miguel de Unamuno

    Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/







------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Dec 16 15:26:48 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:26:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <CB1D9D31-89E2-413B-8D01-F1D81E510B05@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BFC87F28.38A8%grahamd@ripon.edu>




On 12/16/05 11:50 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Dec 16, 2005, at 11:46 AM, David Graham wrote:
> 
>> My personal plan is to use as many as possible as teaching texts, and get 'em
>> free as desk copies!
> 
> Sure, let the cost of those freebies be borne by your students.
> 
>  
> Hal? 
======================

Oh, Hal, it gets worse.  I let the cost of my salary be borne by my
students, too.

Well, a portion of it, anyway.  Most of the rest of it, along with most of
the tuition that my college typically gives back to the students, is borne
ultimately by our generous board of trustees, in the form of endowment
income and their lavish annual gifts.  These hardy moneylenders, legal
eagles, and business entrepreneurs, largely if not universally Republicans,
ultimately support all sorts of subversive nonsense, from poetry workshops
to theater productions featuring dirty words.

Please don't tell.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 16 15:30:47 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:30:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best books/American Poets Project
In-Reply-To: <BFC87F28.38A8%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BFC87F28.38A8%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <15C85536-01DD-45CD-A794-AF6EBBF1B807@earthlink.net>


On Dec 16, 2005, at 3:26 PM, David Graham wrote:

>
>
>
> On 12/16/05 11:50 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 16, 2005, at 11:46 AM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>> My personal plan is to use as many as possible as teaching texts,  
>>> and get 'em free as desk copies!
>>
>> Sure, let the cost of those freebies be borne by your students.
>>
>>
>> Hal
> ======================
>
> Oh, Hal, it gets worse.  I let the cost of my salary be borne by my  
> students, too.
>
> Well, a portion of it, anyway.  Most of the rest of it, along with  
> most of the tuition that my college typically gives back to the  
> students, is borne ultimately by our generous board of trustees, in  
> the form of endowment income and their lavish annual gifts.  These  
> hardy moneylenders, legal eagles, and business entrepreneurs,  
> largely if not universally Republicans, ultimately support all  
> sorts of subversive nonsense, from poetry workshops to theater  
> productions featuring dirty words.
>
> Please don't tell.

Okay, David. My seals are lipped.

Hal                         "Life is uncertain.
                                 Eat the dessert first."
                                             --Don Griffin

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com


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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Dec 16 16:52:05 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:52:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
Message-ID: <1a3.425a0946.30d49105@aol.com>

Perhaps a useful term/concept that might be applied to poetry...
What is the 'long-term decay' of this poem, how long
(or how many times) does it present itself, in whole or
in part, to mind's eye/ear before the constituent
brain chemicals dissolve away and its forgotten...
http://www.centerchange.org/store/review.asp?id=92

Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Dec 16 17:27:12 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:27:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry books of the year
Message-ID: <2c9.4d8118.30d49940@aol.com>

Jack Gilbert's _Refusing Heaven_, Knopf 2005
would be one pick for sure. I'll post something
this weekend.
Finnegan
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 16 17:41:07 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:41:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
In-Reply-To: <1a3.425a0946.30d49105@aol.com>
References: <1a3.425a0946.30d49105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <22672749-C7D2-43CB-9C1C-0C4ED5E48809@earthlink.net>

Okay, Finnegan, now read this.

	http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/Illusion.htm


On Dec 16, 2005, at 4:52 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Perhaps a useful term/concept that might be applied to poetry...
> What is the 'long-term decay' of this poem, how long
> (or how many times) does it present itself, in whole or
> in part, to mind's eye/ear before the constituent
> brain chemicals dissolve away and its forgotten...
> http://www.centerchange.org/store/review.asp?id=92
>
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Hal            "How beautiful it is to do nothing,
                    and then rest afterward."
                                 --Spanish proverb

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com



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From pmetres at jcu.edu  Fri Dec 16 19:17:06 2005
From: pmetres at jcu.edu (Philip Metres)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:17:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
Message-ID: <20051216191706.BKF51514@mirapoint.jcu.edu>

Folks, 

I've just read this year's model of Best American Poetry, 
edited by Paul Muldoon....and I'm left scratching my head a 
little bit.  I associate Muldoon with a certain sort of arch 
formalism, smart but definitely emanating from an Irish 
relationship to meter and rhyme, but the selections (other 
than a few obvious compatriots in the poetry wars, Wilbur, 
Hecht, etc.) are eclectic, to say the least.  It's hard for 
me to figure out.  Perhaps I'm not giving the man credit 
enough for breadth of taste, but does he really value the 
4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's 
poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that 
matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?  Is it possible, 
now, to say that the poetry wars are over, or that there is 
a kind of ceasefire when it comes to the BAP production?  At 
times I long for the clarity and myopia of the earlier 
versions, say, Rich v. Bloom v. everyone else.  Or do the 
selections suggest the central role of David Lehman as 
editor, since he is an advocate for the NYS and other avants 
and postavants?  What's your reading?  

Thanks,

Philip Metres
Assistant Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
(216) 397-4528 (work)
http://www.philipmetres.com


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Dec 16 19:40:32 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:40:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <20051216191706.BKF51514@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <00db01c602a2$7d19acf0$28b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

David Lehman is about as far from being an advocate for avant anything as 
it's possible to be.  But the language poets have been acadominant for 
probably ten years and are now seeping into the mainstream, so the 
mediocrities editing anthologies like the BAP series have to represent them. 
Which is an improvement, if not much of one.

--Bob G.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Philip Metres" <pmetres at jcu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:17 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005


> Folks,
>
> I've just read this year's model of Best American Poetry,
> edited by Paul Muldoon....and I'm left scratching my head a
> little bit.  I associate Muldoon with a certain sort of arch
> formalism, smart but definitely emanating from an Irish
> relationship to meter and rhyme, but the selections (other
> than a few obvious compatriots in the poetry wars, Wilbur,
> Hecht, etc.) are eclectic, to say the least.  It's hard for
> me to figure out.  Perhaps I'm not giving the man credit
> enough for breadth of taste, but does he really value the
> 4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's
> poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that
> matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?  Is it possible,
> now, to say that the poetry wars are over, or that there is
> a kind of ceasefire when it comes to the BAP production?  At
> times I long for the clarity and myopia of the earlier
> versions, say, Rich v. Bloom v. everyone else.  Or do the
> selections suggest the central role of David Lehman as
> editor, since he is an advocate for the NYS and other avants
> and postavants?  What's your reading?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Philip Metres
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> John Carroll University
> 20700 N. Park Blvd
> University Heights, OH 44118
> (216) 397-4528 (work)
> http://www.philipmetres.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From reneea at verizon.net  Fri Dec 16 21:47:48 2005
From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:47:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <20051216191706.BKF51514@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <003501c602b4$44689030$da66fea9@Barnette>

Muldoon's got very broad taste and a superb sense of humor. My guess is 
there was no Lehman leverage.
Renee
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Philip Metres" <pmetres at jcu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:17 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005


> Folks,
>
> I've just read this year's model of Best American Poetry,
> edited by Paul Muldoon....and I'm left scratching my head a
> little bit.  I associate Muldoon with a certain sort of arch
> formalism, smart but definitely emanating from an Irish
> relationship to meter and rhyme, but the selections (other
> than a few obvious compatriots in the poetry wars, Wilbur,
> Hecht, etc.) are eclectic, to say the least.  It's hard for
> me to figure out.  Perhaps I'm not giving the man credit
> enough for breadth of taste, but does he really value the
> 4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's
> poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that
> matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?  Is it possible,
> now, to say that the poetry wars are over, or that there is
> a kind of ceasefire when it comes to the BAP production?  At
> times I long for the clarity and myopia of the earlier
> versions, say, Rich v. Bloom v. everyone else.  Or do the
> selections suggest the central role of David Lehman as
> editor, since he is an advocate for the NYS and other avants
> and postavants?  What's your reading?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Philip Metres
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> John Carroll University
> 20700 N. Park Blvd
> University Heights, OH 44118
> (216) 397-4528 (work)
> http://www.philipmetres.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 22:43:19 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:43:19 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
In-Reply-To: <20051216191706.BKF51514@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
References: <20051216191706.BKF51514@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512161943qd82a29bm86814768a0618e7b@mail.gmail.com>

Why is it so hard to believe someone could enjoy a poetry other than
the kind they write? Musicians are often passionate about musicians in
styles other than their own. I imagine that most, asked to make a
selection of "Best American Music" of the year wouldn't choose only
that which sounds like them. Why should poets be any different?

Or is such a thing impossible from the "mediocrities" and breadth of
taste reserved only for Bob Grumman and a chosen few?

c



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 16 23:55:56 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:55:56 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
Message-ID: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Chris---

these are great questions, and a provocative analogy--
Perhaps one of the reasons musicians are more often passionate about others
in styles they wont or can't do is the same reason that alot of
NON-musicians actually listen to music
(while it's much more rare to find non-poets reading poetry).

I have a hunch though that if even some comparable elder music statesman who
I admire---a Dylan, Haggard, Stevie Wonder, Patti Smith, whoever---
were to undertake a "BEST AMERICAN MUSIC" (and notice I'm even narrowing it
to more pop songwriter types) anthology project---say a 4 CD BOX SET
representing "the best of 2005," I'd probably find huge flaws in it as well.

I'm not saying this to disagree with your specific point however.
I wonder if "music" and "poetry" is the best analogy
or "music" and "literature" in general.

Like a "pop" musician inspired by classical or jazz
is analogous to a novelist inspired by poetry?

I don't think "eclecticism" is the problem with such anthologies
as much as a narrow sameness...

but part of that problem comes down to the definition of what poetry is
since the advent of so-called "free" verse....
(i'm not arguing for a return to rhyme as the standard here)...

There is much more of a consensus (rightly or wrongly) about what is
called "music" than about what is called "poetry"
and that definitely plays a part in the problem with anthologies too...



Chris


----------
>From: Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
>Date: Fri, Dec 16, 2005, 7:43 PM
>

> Why is it so hard to believe someone could enjoy a poetry other than
> the kind they write? Musicians are often passionate about musicians in
> styles other than their own. I imagine that most, asked to make a
> selection of "Best American Music" of the year wouldn't choose only
> that which sounds like them. Why should poets be any different?
>
> Or is such a thing impossible from the "mediocrities" and breadth of
> taste reserved only for Bob Grumman and a chosen few?
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 00:35:56 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:35:56 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
In-Reply-To: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com>

I'm definitely not questioning the notion that BAP is flawed :) But if
Bob Dylan were to put together a compilation, as flawed as it might
be, would his choices of music that weren't in his particular style be
questioned as Muldoon's are? I dislike the undercurrent of suspicion
whenever someone lists/chooses/selected/indicates a preference for a
variety of kinds of poetry.

A closer analogy might be poetry and jazz. Imagine a jazz musician
asked to make a Best of Jazz 2005 compilation... if that musician
chose only from the specific style of jazz he himself played, I'd
complain that it was too narrow-- a best of compilation, to my mind,
would need to represent (at the very least) jazz vocals, free jazz,
straight-ahead, and acid jazz, etc. I bet many others would complain
too (look at the reception Wynton gets in Jazz circles for essentially
being a narrow classicist in this way). I'm skipping the whole
question of whether a good "Best of" anthology is even possible and
reasonable, otherwise there'd be no point in talking about it at all.

But as things are often presented in this forum, were this musician to
choose a variety of music that he felt represented the best in jazz
that went outside the narrow confines of what he plays, his motives
would be questioned, it would be suspected that his choices were
political or forced upon him from outside, and he'd be labelled a
mediocrity. It surely couldn't be possible that the musician actually
listened to and liked a variety of styles could it? It MUST be
aesthetic dishonesty.

And it's not that different in some other ways as well-- questions of
"what is jazz" are nearly as constant in jazz circles as "what is
poetry" are in places like this... particularly in the avant garde and
electronic/remix styles.

My own list of best poetry I read in the last year has some pretty
divergent work. There are people further apart on the spectrum than
Jack Gilbert and Josh Corey, or Ben Lerner and William Matthews, but
it's enough that it must mark me as a mediocrity whose choice of poems
come from politics. Or at least it doesn't fit into Bob's apparent
need to create a taxonomy not just of poems themselves, but of those
who read poetry as well (which is a rather ironic old-school
conception of categorization and exclusivity for someone so firmly in
the avant camp, but I digress).

As for the BAP anthology, there are some choices there that definitely
make me think these are honest choices by Muldoon. Shanna Compton's
poem, for instance... hard for me to imagine that Shanna has the
political pull or the name recognition to be included for those
reasons.

c



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 17 01:17:38 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:17:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
Message-ID: <200512170552.jBH5qR9c195452@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Hey just a quickie---
Coz I was trying to take the argument to another level, and don't have that
much interest in bringing it back to the original argument as this piece
does, but I'll say this---

Chris, I see your point and wouldn't criticize Muldoon or anybody for doing
that.

A couple of stray points---one thing about those anthologies is that the
taste seems NEVER to be ENTIRELY the taste of the NAME EDITOR anyway;
LEHMAN is always somewhat behind it, feeding the NAME EDITOR stuff--
I'm not saying that's either good or bad, just that it must be accounted for
if one is really gonna judge the editor

(it's almost like those contests judged by a NAME POET but the NAME POET
usually only gets to see like 5 or 10 Manuscripts, and in many cases it's
possible stuff they would like more could've been weeded out by the press
that hired them, or got them to do it for free....)

Other point---So, if the kind of anthology, whether jazz or poetry or
whatever, you're talking about exists--
then there's this issue---"okay WHICH token free jazz person," which TOKEN
hard-bop" etc etc....
and so of course something like politics is unavoidable...

Once I remember being rejected from a particular anthlogy largely because I
found out about it too late, and another poet whose style can be said to be
similar to mine beat me to it---and they only had room for one person in
that kind of style...and they already gave the other person their word, etc.

Well, at least they were honest about it

OF COURSE, I tend to look at these things as "PAUL MULDOON'S 2005 POETRY MIX
TAPE"---nothing more and nothing less. I guess it MATTERS to some people,
but hopefully it doesn't matter too much. Like it translates into "these are
the people who will be able to make a living as poets or teachers" or
something----So far, I like to think enough people see through the
arbitrariness of it all, but then I'm a naive little utopian I suppose
still looking for another way....

Chris



----------
>From: Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
>Date: Fri, Dec 16, 2005, 9:35 PM
>

> I'm definitely not questioning the notion that BAP is flawed :) But if
> Bob Dylan were to put together a compilation, as flawed as it might
> be, would his choices of music that weren't in his particular style be
> questioned as Muldoon's are? I dislike the undercurrent of suspicion
> whenever someone lists/chooses/selected/indicates a preference for a
> variety of kinds of poetry.
>
> A closer analogy might be poetry and jazz. Imagine a jazz musician
> asked to make a Best of Jazz 2005 compilation... if that musician
> chose only from the specific style of jazz he himself played, I'd
> complain that it was too narrow-- a best of compilation, to my mind,
> would need to represent (at the very least) jazz vocals, free jazz,
> straight-ahead, and acid jazz, etc. I bet many others would complain
> too (look at the reception Wynton gets in Jazz circles for essentially
> being a narrow classicist in this way). I'm skipping the whole
> question of whether a good "Best of" anthology is even possible and
> reasonable, otherwise there'd be no point in talking about it at all.
>
> But as things are often presented in this forum, were this musician to
> choose a variety of music that he felt represented the best in jazz
> that went outside the narrow confines of what he plays, his motives
> would be questioned, it would be suspected that his choices were
> political or forced upon him from outside, and he'd be labelled a
> mediocrity. It surely couldn't be possible that the musician actually
> listened to and liked a variety of styles could it? It MUST be
> aesthetic dishonesty.
>
> And it's not that different in some other ways as well-- questions of
> "what is jazz" are nearly as constant in jazz circles as "what is
> poetry" are in places like this... particularly in the avant garde and
> electronic/remix styles.
>
> My own list of best poetry I read in the last year has some pretty
> divergent work. There are people further apart on the spectrum than
> Jack Gilbert and Josh Corey, or Ben Lerner and William Matthews, but
> it's enough that it must mark me as a mediocrity whose choice of poems
> come from politics. Or at least it doesn't fit into Bob's apparent
> need to create a taxonomy not just of poems themselves, but of those
> who read poetry as well (which is a rather ironic old-school
> conception of categorization and exclusivity for someone so firmly in
> the avant camp, but I digress).
>
> As for the BAP anthology, there are some choices there that definitely
> make me think these are honest choices by Muldoon. Shanna Compton's
> poem, for instance... hard for me to imagine that Shanna has the
> political pull or the name recognition to be included for those
> reasons.
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 01:07:27 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:07:27 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
In-Reply-To: <200512170552.jBH5qR9c195452@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200512170552.jBH5qR9c195452@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512162207u687b98ffu939735a748da07ba@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/16/05, Chris Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hey just a quickie---
> Coz I was trying to take the argument to another level, and don't have that
> much interest in bringing it back to the original argument as this piece
> does, but I'll say this---

Well, I was trying to follow both strands at the same time :)

> OF COURSE, I tend to look at these things as
> "PAUL MULDOON'S 2005 POETRY MIX
> TAPE"---nothing more and nothing less.

As do I... and I would much rather see that than the "myopic clarity"
the OP referred to and which seems to cause no little consternation
(being, as it is, the standard mode for production of anthologies).

I don't know how much the politics of choosing the "token"
representative from a particular genre really matters in the face of
the limitations already imposed in the idea of an anthology. First,
any editor is limited to what he or she has seen. Second, and more
important, that shouldn't be the method anyway. Ideally the selection
would be an organic process of what one really liked and/or was moved
by and/or admired. It seems perfectly reasonable for such an honest
process to have idiosyncratic results that cross many schools of
poetry.

The skepticism that started this thread appears to reflect a position
where such things either don't happen or are exceedingly rare... thus
the initial question:

"does he [Muldoon] really value the
4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's
poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that
matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?"

To which I answer: why not?

I'm still thinking about this:

"Perhaps one of the reasons musicians are more often passionate about
others in styles they wont or can't do is the same reason that alot of
NON-musicians actually listen to music (while it's much more rare to
find non-poets reading poetry)."

What is that reason?

c



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 17 03:24:27 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:24:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lott of Words (sorry about length)
Message-ID: <200512170759.jBH7xGla114284@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>



> I'm still thinking about this:
> 
> "Perhaps one of the reasons musicians are more often passionate about
> others in styles they wont or can't do is the same reason that alot of
> NON-musicians actually listen to music (while it's much more rare to
> find non-poets reading poetry)."
>
> What is that reason?
>
> c

I'm gonna try this out---"thinking aloud" here, so bear with me--

First, every musician is not only or always a musician
(which is to say every musician is also a non-musician)

So, every poet is not only or always a poet
(which is to say every poet is also a non-poet)

Second, since both music and poetry involve skills
that to some extent must be learned, generally one is not
called a producer of music, a "musician," or of poetry,
a "poet," until one has listened to or read a significant amount
of what is called "music" or "poetry"

The fact that for most people music reaches them very EARLY
(almost like BAPTISM in Catholicism; before you have a chance
to consciously think about it, you got "religion")
is one very big difference from the way poetry reaches most people

(There's always exceptions, like an Anselm Berrigan perhaps)

I think this fact explains alot about the way poetry is understood as an
aesthetic object today as well as "the poet" as a social (or antisocial)
role.

I think THE VAST MAJORITY OF POETS start out thinking of themselves as poets
BEFORE they really have a huge appreciation for poetry written by others,
the canon, etc.

In Music, this generally doesn't happen. Many love dancing to "Thank You
Falettin Me Mice Elf" or even smoking a lonely cigarette to "Pale Blue Eyes"
like at age NINE, before one's parents will dare buy you an instrument.
Music is clearly--even to the child--a skill.
Poetry to most nine year olds? Maybe something a teacher will assign--
"Red, red, I like red"-----
but much more about self-expression (on the production side)
than about aestehtic pleasure like music

One is applauded at first perhaps for the self-expression,
like the parents first surprise at how complex the toddler can be.
Even when the young one is eventually TOLD (if not QUITE scoled,
though it most certaintly can come in that form)
that "if you want to be a poet you got to learn some RULES,"
these RULES are often not grounded so much in primal aesthetic pleasure
(a la with music), or a sense of what was moving to you when you
DIDN'T THINK OF YOURSELF AS A POET but in what generally is called
successful poetry.

Now, sure one can say that "successful poetry" however defined, even by the
so-called fringes (as many on this list may perhaps conceive of Grumman),
is ultimately rooted in primal aesthetic pleasure anyway, but part of the
PASSION of poetry, compared to music, is precisely the feeling that the
line between PRODUCER and CONSUMER seems more permeable--
that one doesn't need PRODUCERS and 5 OTHER MUSICIANS and RECORDING STUDIOS
and EXPENSIVE GEAR and PROMOTERS and MANAGERS and GRAPHIC DESIGNERS etc in
the making of the art as much.

This is one of the reasons why music seems more a MYSTERY to some--
Like if I play piano for a non-musician they're as amazed as I am when they
say can do brain surgery.

Sometimes this can happen when a poet reads a poem for a non-poet, and I
still believe this could happen more if poets had more access to the means
of cultural production, but I digress....

In music, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
In poetry, that "swing" is not something a child or many teens would
necessarily recognize as "swing." No would many adult non-poets.

In poetry, they say the shadow falls between thought and expression.
In the "popular song" (or the "popular song wannabe") there shadow
may also fall between the written song and the performance of that song.
One can write a song that could be performed EQUALLY WELL in a
Hank-Williams-like style, a Joe Strummer like style or a Bob Marley like
stylee (to name but three).

Part of the trick of being a music producer and appreciator
is learning how to separate the SONG from the ARRANGEMENT--
What would be the analogy of this in poetry?
One could say, the way a period style is used to convoy a
perrenial theme...

But that's not quite right, because the "theme" is not the
"song." I suppose for the analogy to work, PERFORMANCE would
have to have the same STATUS in poetry that it does in music--
as PART of the art.

Now, in music sometimes the Song ISN'T necessarily written before the
performance, but COMES OUT OF it. The Motown House band may be jamming
n their particular style and a song comes out of it---

But the main point is if in one's very early formative years one is exposed
to a wide range of musical styles, and actually likes most of them
(there's always exceptions---alot of people I know HATED country as a kid
for instance, but even with these exceptions, there's still a range),
and then one decides to become a musician, and GETS OFF on being able to
play songs, well, a REALLY COMMON PHRASE is "that's good enough for rock and
roll" (I think it used to be "that's good enough for jazz," a long time
ago--when jazz was still considered less serious than classical).

One implication of that is---
"It doesn't matter if I can't play EVERYTHING I LIKE, I can play something I
like!---and furthermore other people like it, and I like them liking it.
Why GO FURTHER and be more complex, etc."

In poetry, the same thing could happen, but one might have to GO OUT OF
ONE'S WAY a little more to LIKE as wide a range of things. IN FACT, more
often than not, a teacher or editor like figure will be there to say,
"Your poetry is TOO MUCH like this one thing, you really should read
some_____" in part to learn new tricks, etc. Now this happens in the more
'elitist' forms of music too, but in the popular song, the kind of song one
got hooked on unselfconsciously at a young age, it's not as important, and
not thought of as "tricks" as much.

There's many implications to this---
One of which would involve the relation of the musician to a DJ.
Now, the "free format" DJ, in comparison to most musicians,
DOES try to express the range of his or her taste in their "ART"---

And in this sense a "DJ" may me more like a poet than a musician is--
That may explain why in "avant" circles (or what someone calls the
"lite avant garde" of ellipticism and jorie graham, etc),
the word "SAMPLING" is used so much as an attempt to describe the art

Like there's some sense that a poet can digest all the various styles
(literary and even "non-literary")--as allegedly THE WASTELAND did or
Ashbery--and thus kind of "contain" the diversity, at least stylistically.
Some would say, a single voice never emerges enough for this to happen,
so PESSOA takes it one step further, closer to Shakespeare, if you think
of a play as a book of poems sampling every possible linguistic idiom--
or at least coming damn close----- enough so people might feel THIS IS THE
ONLY BOOK I NEED. In music, The Beatles (in terms of the "rock era" serve
that function for many---their OB LA DI OB LA DA, YER BLUES and REVOLUTION
NUMBER 9 on the same album....)

Yet, most musicians start out much more with the SIGNATURE STYLE (the
beatles did too)--not only because it's easier to play, but yes the critical
establishment (in just about EVERY art) needs to PIN SOMETHING DOWN to be
able to write about it, usually.

Many poets tend to squirm at this thought, as a mere SCHTICK that should be
transcended, or a fear of playing one part, or.... or....

Yet, even in the poetry world, it often turns out that the writers with a
seemingly consistent stylistic tick tend to be the most recognized in part
because they flatter the notion of poetry as "art" moving through history
with cultural significance rather than say what TZARA (or BARAKA for that
matter) referred to as one's personal BOOM BOOM....(not that it's an
either/or, but the marginalization of the erratic personality in poetry
is more troubling than it would be in, say, football---Terrell Owens, etc)

(but I digress....)
whitman and ohara's names are invoked against their spirit
as much as JESUS CHRIST'S is...
(but I digress...)

MORE TO YOUR POINT---
I know many poets in their 20s (generally the decade of HEAVY STUDY for most
poets) who PURPOSELY HAVE TO CLOSE THEMSELVES OFF TO VARIOUS OTHER MODES OF
POETRY in order to help them strengthen their sense of identity and resolve.
HENCE, "POETRY WARS" and the various dogmas, and why many seem to either
MELLOW, "OPEN UP" or "SELL-OUT" (depending on your perspective) with age.
(such may have happened with Muldoon?)

With music, the NARROWING comes AFTER a large appreciation for wider stuff.
"YEAH, I LOVE COLTRANE and SLY STONE, and still do, but I decided it's more
fun to play what I can play than to try to go out of my way to play like
them."

So, if there a connection between the popularity of music and the passion of
the musicians for other forms of music they themselves do not do, it could
be explained either by--
1. There could be less JEALOUSY in music; the "pie" is bigger and one
doesn't have to knock "the competition" because there's room for more people
to make it?
   (yeah, but there's also more people trying to make it, so that may cancel
out)
2. One can appreciate music more PASSIVELY than one can appreciate poetry,
   REGARDLESS of whether one is a "musician" or not. Perhaps this is the
   CRUCIAL point---I can "half" listen to music, not sit their straining,
   rapt, bent over a page, scratching my head, etc---I can let it work on
   me, AS I LIE IN BES WITH NO LIGHTS ON; even if I'm a SONGWRITER.
   I cannot do this with poerty so much. If YOU can, fine. But I think
   this distinction explains at least as much as
   Wallace Stevens writing "music is feeling, then, not sound"
   or Pound unwittingly proving the atrophy of his legacy
   when he wrote "poetry atrophies when it gets too far from music."
   AS listener, then, musician and non-musician may have a lot in common.
   Sure, reading a poem may REFRESH one from writing a poem, may
   similarly "save one from oneself" at least temporarily enough
   for refreshment to arrive, but the way one has to WORK at it
   sometimes feels like drinking soda to quench one's thirst---
   Not bad perhaps, but I still tend to want water for desert.

   Of course, alot of what poets call "music in poetry," i do not
   (and thus they don't find my poetry very "musical")

But I know I'm on to something here----even if it's only FOR ME (ha ha--
     though I don't really believe that's it only for me....)

this may not seem like it, but it could very well be part of a new
DEFENSE of poetry, coming soon to theatres near you, be the first one on
your block, etc. etc....


Chris







































From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 06:23:22 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 06:23:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <20051216191706.BKF51514@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512161943qd82a29bm86814768a0618e7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c602fc$4c55bfa0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Why is it so hard to believe someone could enjoy a poetry other than
> the kind they write? Musicians are often passionate about musicians in
> styles other than their own. I imagine that most, asked to make a
> selection of "Best American Music" of the year wouldn't choose only
> that which sounds like them. Why should poets be any different?

They shouldn't be, but the ones who edit Best American Poetry anthologies 
certainly are.

> Or is such a thing impossible from the "mediocrities" and breadth of
> taste reserved only for Bob Grumman and a chosen few?

Possibly so.  What evidence is there to the contrary?  Just "eclectic" 
anthologies like the one under discussion that leaves out all kinds of 
poetries Serious Poets are composing (at least according to the description 
in the opening post to this thread).

I would add that I'm not really sure Muldoon, whose work I don't know, is a 
mediocrity.  It's just that editors of the BAP series have to be stasguards 
due to Lehman's extreme medicority, and stasguards are generally 
mediocrities (although some are former first-raters). And if Lehman can 
misrepresent his series with the word, "best," it seems only fair that I 
should (possibily) misrepresent some of the poets working for him with the 
word, "mediocrity."

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 06:46:23 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 06:46:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <200512170552.jBH5qR9c195452@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <001501c602ff$81a63fb0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> OF COURSE, I tend to look at these things as "PAUL MULDOON'S 2005 POETRY 
> MIX
> TAPE"---nothing more and nothing less. I guess it MATTERS to some people,

Actually, I'm entirely with you on this, Chris.  It's just too bad the 
publisher has to use the word "best" in the title of the mix.  What does 
matter to me is that no such mix that has any distribution to speak of 
includes certain kinds of poetries I consider worthwhile.  What annoys me 
even worse (although it's a trivial matter) is that some of the editors 
involved, and their readers, nonetheless speak of those collections as 
"eclectic" and or as including "avant garde" work.  So I guess I think of 
the Muldoon volume as "PAUL MULDOON'S 2005 knownstream POETRY MIX TAPE," 
which--again, would be fine with me if there were a few otherstream poetry 
mixes out there (and, actually, I would have to admit that the 
Rothenberg/Joris anthology is such an anthology).

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 06:55:17 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 06:55:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
	<9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Or at least it doesn't fit into Bob's apparent
> need to create a taxonomy not just of poems themselves, but of those
> who read poetry as well (which is a rather ironic old-school
> conception of categorization and exclusivity for someone so firmly in
> the avant camp, but I digress).

(1) no "taxonomy" for those who read poetry, just a recognition that some 
people read lots of different kinds of poetry, some don't--and most of the 
latter aren't bothered if anthologies scant poetries they don't read.

(2) taxonomizing is not old school; in fact, it seems to be considered 
subversive by just about all schools of poetry.

(3)  And, of course, "exclusivity" have nothing to do with taxonomization; 
the taxonomist wants to include everything--but he wants to distinguish each 
set of X's from all the sets of non-X's (which everyone does), and do it 
systematically (which just about no one does).

(4) I don't know what any of this has to do with any of the points you seem 
to be trying to make.

(X)  I don't think Muldoon's choices were politically motivated.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 07:11:36 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 07:11:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lott of Words (sorry about length)
References: <200512170759.jBH7xGla114284@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <002301c60303$07888310$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Interesting out-louds most of which seem pretty reasonable to me, Chris. 
I'm not so sure how much I go along with your idea that we're exposed to 
music earlier than we are to poetry (to do some out-louding of my own).  In 
fact, I think you may be comparing oranges and Mcintosh Apples--that is, the 
general category of music to the subcategory (under literature) of poetry. 
And I tend to think kids get exposed mainly to simple music--and equally to 
simple poems (nursery rhymes, etc.)  I think people in general get no more 
of a headstart toward appreciating advanced music (for me, serious jazz and 
classical, only--though there are many many pop songs I love) than they do 
toward appreciating the advanced literature that ambitious poetry is.

--Bob G. 




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Dec 17 10:40:26 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:40:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
Message-ID: <e5.21c5d849.30d58b6a@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/16/2005 5:41:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:
now read this. 


http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/Illusion.htm
Nice piece of op art (or is it vispo)....a good color theory
illustration, too.
Finnegan
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Dec 17 11:03:25 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:03:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
References: <e5.21c5d849.30d58b6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c60323$69dbf7c0$6600a8c0@Helen>

That's really strange!  

Is it a computer trick or a brain trick? 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 10:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?


  In a message dated 12/16/2005 5:41:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
    now read this. 


    http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/Illusion.htm
  Nice piece of op art (or is it vispo)....a good color theory
  illustration, too.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Dec 17 11:13:45 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:13:45 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
Message-ID: <e2.21dd0e52.30d59339@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/17/2005 12:36:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
chris.lott at gmail.com writes:
I'm skipping the whole
question of whether a good "Best of" anthology is even possible and
reasonable, otherwise there'd be no point in talking about it at all.
Most of the guest editors seem to spend a paragraph or two
in disclaimer...apologizing for the word 'Best' in the title. Harold Bloom
was the exception: refreshingly he actually believed and touted
what he'd selected as the best of the year. Or the best of what he believed 
the best poets, in his opinion, had published of late.
a
I like that idea, I think mentioned by Chris S, that this book is
analogous to a mix recording. I was interested, as well, to hear that Lehman 
plays so much a part in the selection of poems. I've wondered
if the editors put out calls for recently published poems to the poets who 
they favor or whose work they admire.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 11:18:38 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:18:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
References: <e5.21c5d849.30d58b6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c60325$8a6e8550$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

    http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/Illusion.htm
  Nice piece of op art (or is it vispo)....a good color theory
  illustration, too.
  Finnegan

It's a fun optical illusion.  It's not a visual poem.  I saw it a while back and let a group of visual poets know about it, but none of them seem to have made anything of it.  I think it's something that a visual poet should be able to exploit very nicely but I haven't gotten around to doing so myself.

--Bob G.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 17 11:35:33 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:35:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
In-Reply-To: <001e01c60323$69dbf7c0$6600a8c0@Helen>
References: <e5.21c5d849.30d58b6a@aol.com>
	<001e01c60323$69dbf7c0$6600a8c0@Helen>
Message-ID: <C63AEB17-2E28-4CA1-BF10-CA7228C739E6@earthlink.net>


On Dec 17, 2005, at 11:03 AM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

> That's really strange!
>
> Is it a computer trick or a brain trick?

I'd say yes, Helen. ;)

Hal
>
> In a message dated 12/16/2005 5:41:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
> halvard at earthlink.net writes:
> now read this.
>
> http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/Illusion.htm
> Nice piece of op art (or is it vispo)....a good color theory
> illustration, too.
> Finnegan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and  
> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of  
> ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com.
> _______________________________________________
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> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Hal        "If the brain were so simple we could understand
                it, we would be so simple we couldn't."
                                             --Lyall Watson

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Dec 17 11:59:06 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:59:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  OOOF!
In-Reply-To: <000c01c602fc$4c55bfa0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BFC99FFA.1693D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 12/17/05 5:23 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

> I would add that I'm not really sure Muldoon, whose work I don't know, is a
> mediocrity.  

That's just touching.  Give me a moment to compose myself. . . .

It's just that editors of the BAP series have to be stasguards
> due to Lehman's extreme medicority, and stasguards are generally
> mediocrities 

OK, now I'm better.  Always good (for a stasguard, you know) to find my
predictions entirely fulfilled. . . .

More power to those who want to run the Best Of argument (aka Mother of All
Arguments) a few more times around the track, though I don't think I'll
comment further.

But I would like to reinterate my plea for further examples of poems, poets,
& books that have really impressed us during the past year.  Year of
publication or relationship to Bestness is another matter.

I'm still pondering and scanning my own shelves for further recommendations.
But here's one, even though I'm not sure I'd slot it into anything with the
word Best on the cover:  currently on top of my own bedside stack is Matt
Cook's second collection, *Eavesdrop Soup*, from Manic D Press.

Some may remember Cook from the PBS special *United States of Poetry*, in
which he recited his hilariously stupid attack-poem, "James Joyce."  His is
definitely a punk sensibility, and I can't say that his second book is any
more mature than his first, but it's often very funny.  When he misses, he
misses by a mile, but I find Cook one of the most readable of the slammers.

I'll see if I can hunt up some examples later.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 12:26:40 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:26:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
References: <e5.21c5d849.30d58b6a@aol.com>
	<001e01c60323$69dbf7c0$6600a8c0@Helen>
Message-ID: <006401c6032f$0b5cdfa0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It's an eye-trick, actually, but facilitated by the computer: the computer is making one dot at a time disappear, then reappear as the next dot around the circle disappears but it's so fast you interpret it as a moving, blinking dot.  If you keep watching it, your eye will tire, so you will no longer see red, but its opposite, a green after-image--because you will actually be looking at gray, with red subtracted.  Eventually the cells in the retina seeing the red dots may tire enough so that they, in effect see the red dot minus the red--which means they see gray background, or nothing. 

It's simple, although my explanation is probably pretty poor.  (So if you don't follow, blame it on me.)  I consider it entirely an eye-trick--by which I mean, it all happens prior to the cerebrum, partly in a motion-sensitive sensor and partly in the cones in the retina.


--Bob G.



From: Helen Ruggieri 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?


  That's really strange!  

  Is it a computer trick or a brain trick? 


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: JforJames at aol.com 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 10:40 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?


    In a message dated 12/16/2005 5:41:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
      now read this. 


      http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/Illusion.htm
    Nice piece of op art (or is it vispo)....a good color theory
    illustration, too.
    Finnegan


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 12:32:08 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:32:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  OOOF!
References: <BFC99FFA.1693D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007201c6032f$cef33770$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

If you want to call consistency predictability, David, feel free. 
Meanwhile, I wait eagerly for the incredible new advantures your selection 
of "impressive" poetry collections will send me on.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:59 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP! POW! OOOF!


> on 12/17/05 5:23 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:
>
>> I would add that I'm not really sure Muldoon, whose work I don't know, is 
>> a
>> mediocrity.
>
> That's just touching.  Give me a moment to compose myself. . . .
>
> It's just that editors of the BAP series have to be stasguards
>> due to Lehman's extreme medicority, and stasguards are generally
>> mediocrities
>
> OK, now I'm better.  Always good (for a stasguard, you know) to find my
> predictions entirely fulfilled. . . .
>
> More power to those who want to run the Best Of argument (aka Mother of 
> All
> Arguments) a few more times around the track, though I don't think I'll
> comment further.
>
> But I would like to reinterate my plea for further examples of poems, 
> poets,
> & books that have really impressed us during the past year.  Year of
> publication or relationship to Bestness is another matter.
>
> I'm still pondering and scanning my own shelves for further 
> recommendations.
> But here's one, even though I'm not sure I'd slot it into anything with 
> the
> word Best on the cover:  currently on top of my own bedside stack is Matt
> Cook's second collection, *Eavesdrop Soup*, from Manic D Press.
>
> Some may remember Cook from the PBS special *United States of Poetry*, in
> which he recited his hilariously stupid attack-poem, "James Joyce."  His 
> is
> definitely a punk sensibility, and I can't say that his second book is any
> more mature than his first, but it's often very funny.  When he misses, he
> misses by a mile, but I find Cook one of the most readable of the 
> slammers.
>
> I'll see if I can hunt up some examples later.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Dec 17 12:38:51 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:38:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: BAP!  POW!  OOOF!
In-Reply-To: <007201c6032f$cef33770$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BFC9A94B.16948%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 12/17/05 11:32 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

> If you want to call consistency predictability, David, feel free.
> Meanwhile, I wait eagerly for the incredible new advantures your selection
> of "impressive" poetry collections will send me on.
> 
> --Bob G.


Sure thing, Bob.  And if you want to impress *me* you could refrain from
your habit of attacking poetry and poets you admit you haven't read, or read
closely, etc.

Deal?

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 12:46:09 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 08:46:09 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lott of Words (sorry about length)
In-Reply-To: <002301c60303$07888310$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <200512170759.jBH7xGla114284@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
	<002301c60303$07888310$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512170946v50bceec8we27a26a6da1094db@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> serious jazz and
> classical, only

I actually agree with both of your points. But I'm just curious what
qualifies as "serious jazz" to you?

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 12:40:43 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 08:40:43 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
In-Reply-To: <001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
	<9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com>
	<001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512170940q4d2e3584t1984d01eec491bd1@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> (2) taxonomizing is not old school; in fact, it seems to be considered
> subversive by just about all schools of poetry.

Just goes to show you how behind the times poetry is, I guess.

> (3)  And, of course, "exclusivity" have nothing to do with taxonomization;
> the taxonomist wants to include everything--but he wants to distinguish each
> set of X's from all the sets of non-X's (which everyone does), and do it
> systematically (which just about no one does).

I'm talking about the exclusivity that comes from categorizing a poem
(or a reader) as one-- and only one-- type. As if they can't inhabit
multiple categories. In your conception a reader, as I read your
responses to posts here, apparently can't *really* find value in
multiple schools/kinds of poetry. So it seems you would like to
categorize both poems and readers.

> (X)  I don't think Muldoon's choices were politically motivated.

But you imply that they aren't intellectually honest, either,
seemingly in agreement with at least one conjecture made by the OP...
that Muldoon can't really value work of a style other than his own.

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 13:53:25 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:53:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net><9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com><001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512170940q4d2e3584t1984d01eec491bd1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301c6033b$29b10a60$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> (3)  And, of course, "exclusivity" have nothing to do with 
>> taxonomization;
>> the taxonomist wants to include everything--but he wants to distinguish 
>> each
>> set of X's from all the sets of non-X's (which everyone does), and do it
>> systematically (which just about no one does).
>
> I'm talking about the exclusivity that comes from categorizing a poem
> (or a reader) as one-- and only one-- type. As if they can't inhabit
> multiple categories.

A poem can partially fit many categories.  I've never said otherwise.  I 
merely place a given poem in the category it best fits.  As for readers, 
I've never claimed each reader is only one kind of reader, or reads only one 
kind of poem, which is absurd.

 In your conception a reader, as I read your
> responses to posts here, apparently can't *really* find value in
> multiple schools/kinds of poetry. So it seems you would like to
> categorize both poems and readers.

I don't know how more categorization of readers I've done.  Sure, I 
tediously point out those readers I feel have a narrow range of interest.

>> (X)  I don't think Muldoon's choices were politically motivated.
>
> But you imply that they aren't intellectually honest, either,

To you.  I certainly never intended to--except that I do believe someone 
involved is probably making sure enough representatives of every certified 
victim group get in.  But basically, I'm sure Muldoon put in poem he liked. 
I'm fairly sure he simply doesn't realize there are other kinds of poems 
beside the kinds he admires.

> seemingly in agreement with at least one conjecture made by the OP...
> that Muldoon can't really value work of a style other than his own.

I can't believe I ever said anything to imply that.  But who knows.  I do 
express myself slopply at New-Poetry--because I consider it a place for that 
kind of communication (and valuable for being that kind of place).

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 13:58:36 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:58:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: BAP!  POW!  OOOF!
References: <BFC9A94B.16948%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <008801c6033b$e30b24f0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> If you want to call consistency predictability, David, feel free.
>> Meanwhile, I wait eagerly for the incredible new advantures your 
>> selection
>> of "impressive" poetry collections will send me on.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>
>
> Sure thing, Bob.  And if you want to impress *me* you could refrain from
> your habit of attacking poetry and poets you admit you haven't read, or 
> read
> closely, etc.
>
> Deal?

Nope.  Not being an academic, I have the ability to understand some things 
without direct contact with them.  I don't have to read Muldoon, for 
instance, to know he must be a stasguard; otherwise, he wouldn't be chosen 
to edit a BAP anthology.  Hence, I know that as an editor, he will not 
produce a wide-ranging anthology.

I am also able to use certain people's admiration of some poet, to figure 
out without reading the poet that he doesn't do anything unconventional. 
(Although he may still be very good--even as good as those who do do 
unconventional things in their poems.)  Etc.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Dec 17 14:52:59 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:52:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?
References: <e5.21c5d849.30d58b6a@aol.com><001e01c60323$69dbf7c0$6600a8c0@Helen>
	<006401c6032f$0b5cdfa0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <001e01c60343$7beefd70$e4d63152@ANNY>

What is strange is that one actually _sees_ the green dot -
it would be interesting to study mind impressions a little better. For example in law, good judges know that people under shock should not witness because even if in good faith their minds easily play on them strange tricks.
It would be interesting to know finally what is and what is not. Or that specific scientific studies should be carried out by literate people, there might be some interesting results.
  From: Bob Grumman 
  Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:26 PM


  It's an eye-trick, actually, but facilitated by the computer: the computer is making one dot at a time disappear, then reappear as the next dot around the circle disappears but it's so fast you interpret it as a moving, blinking dot.  If you keep watching it, your eye will tire, so you will no longer see red, but its opposite, a green after-image--because you will actually be looking at gray, with red subtracted.  Eventually the cells in the retina seeing the red dots may tire enough so that they, in effect see the red dot minus the red--which means they see gray background, or nothing. 

  It's simple, although my explanation is probably pretty poor.  (So if you don't follow, blame it on me.)  I consider it entirely an eye-trick--by which I mean, it all happens prior to the cerebrum, partly in a motion-sensitive sensor and partly in the cones in the retina.


  --Bob G.



  From: Helen Ruggieri 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?


    That's really strange!  

    Is it a computer trick or a brain trick? 


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: JforJames at aol.com 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 10:40 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what your poem's 'long-term decay' index?


      In a message dated 12/16/2005 5:41:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
        now read this. 


        http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/Illusion.htm
      Nice piece of op art (or is it vispo)....a good color theory
      illustration, too.
      Finnegan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________
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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 15:31:30 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:31:30 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
In-Reply-To: <008301c6033b$29b10a60$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
	<9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com>
	<001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512170940q4d2e3584t1984d01eec491bd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301c6033b$29b10a60$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512171231yc5defaen8b8d400b03633e24@mail.gmail.com>

uOn 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> But basically, I'm sure Muldoon put in poem he liked.
> I'm fairly sure he simply doesn't realize there are other kinds of poems
> beside the kinds he admires.

But that which he admires must be a bit broader than many to raise
such questions and allow him to include what he did in the anthology,
no? That was the original question to which you responded.

I'm still curious about what jazz you listen to-- purely out of curiosity...

c



From mbyrne at risd.edu  Sat Dec 17 15:42:49 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:42:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Muldoon
Message-ID: <s3a43210.074@risd.edu>

Dear Philip and all,

>From my perspective as an (escaped) Irish poet, I see Paul Muldoon as an anomalous and liberating force, somewhat Janus-faced maybe in that his work is
accessible to both mainstream and off-the-shoulder (?!) poets; his attention to surface and his sheer extravagance are unusual in Irish poetry.  I would see Ciaran Carson in a similar way, though Muldoon's work seems broader, more various, with wide range.  I would love to see Paul Muldoon at Trevor Joyce's SoundEye International Poetry Festival, which is a venue for "alternative" international and Irish poetries.  I know Ciaran Carson has read there.

I haven't seen the 2005 Best of but, if it's edited by Muldoon, I would hope for a lively, intelligent mix.  I was disappointed in his Faber Book of Contemporary Irish Poetry, which seemed a predicable selection, but I don't know what his parameters were, other than 1939-1980s.  Also, that was published nearly 20 years ago.  I imagine those 20 years have been a time of massive poetic growth, as he was prodigious to begin with and has stayed the course.  I'd love to see him doing a Contemporary Irish Poetry again (as long as I had 20 pages!).

My comments may not be much help to you Phil, other than to say that I would expect Paul Muldoon to have eclectic tastes, would be (and have been) disappointed when he doesn't seem to have, and consider his work to be a very hospitable interface for both mainstream and non-mainstream work.  In my case, "Incantata" was a liberating influence: like Ciaran Carson, he goes overboard.  Both are probably in the Joycean tradition, and a tradition of Irish-language poets rather than English, even though they write in English.  They have that total extravagance and manic wit: poems like flags unfurling rather than introspective lyrics, though there are probably those too.  More making mischief with rhyme etc than keeping time.

Muldoon is in an interesting position, and one I understand a little, as someone who has lived most of his adult life in America, though Irish.  My experience of Irish poetry (in Ireland) was so bad that I think it cannot have been true.  The scene is more various there now, and as I said above, I think Paul Muldoon would have something to contribute to most arenas.

Mairead

>>> Philip Metres <pmetres at jcu.edu> 12/16/05 7:17 PM >>>
Folks, 

I've just read this year's model of Best American Poetry, 
edited by Paul Muldoon....and I'm left scratching my head a 
little bit.  I associate Muldoon with a certain sort of arch 
formalism, smart but definitely emanating from an Irish 
relationship to meter and rhyme, but the selections (other 
than a few obvious compatriots in the poetry wars, Wilbur, 
Hecht, etc.) are eclectic, to say the least.  It's hard for 
me to figure out.  Perhaps I'm not giving the man credit 
enough for breadth of taste, but does he really value the 
4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's 
poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that 
matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?  Is it possible, 
now, to say that the poetry wars are over, or that there is 
a kind of ceasefire when it comes to the BAP production?  At 
times I long for the clarity and myopia of the earlier 
versions, say, Rich v. Bloom v. everyone else.  Or do the 
selections suggest the central role of David Lehman as 
editor, since he is an advocate for the NYS and other avants 
and postavants?  What's your reading?  

Thanks,

Philip Metres
Assistant Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
(216) 397-4528 (work)
http://www.philipmetres.com
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sat Dec 17 15:57:29 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:57:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu>


Folks, 

I've just read this year's model of Best American Poetry, 
edited by Paul Muldoon....and I'm left scratching my head a 
little bit.  I associate Muldoon with a certain sort of arch 
formalism, smart but definitely emanating from an Irish 
relationship to meter and rhyme, but the selections (other 
than a few obvious compatriots in the poetry wars, Wilbur, 
Hecht, etc.) are eclectic, to say the least.  It's hard for 
me to figure out.  Perhaps I'm not giving the man credit 
enough for breadth of taste, but does he really value the 
4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's 
poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that 
matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?  Is it possible, 
now, to say that the poetry wars are over, or that there is 
a kind of ceasefire when it comes to the BAP production?  At 
times I long for the clarity and myopia of the earlier 
versions, say, Rich v. Bloom v. everyone else.  Or do the 
selections suggest the central role of David Lehman as 
editor, since he is an advocate for the NYS and other avants 
and postavants?  What's your reading?  

Thanks,

Philip Metres
Assistant Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
(216) 397-4528 (work)
http://www.philipmetres.com


. . ..I share your doubts, Professor Metres.
What's the point of such eclecticism?  Why be so 
inclusionary?  Everybody's trying to straddle 
the fence.  Why can't we take a position and stick
to it?  The new issue of Fulcrum has Billy 
Collins side by side with Charles Bernstein. . . why?
It seems absurd to me.  One virtue of Silliman is
his absolute esthestic: if he edited BAP, he 
wouldn't include a single SOQ, and if he did I'd
be disappointed.  Whereas If I edited it, I'd do 
the opposite and choose SOQs only.  We need
more absolutists, more poets and editors willing
to stand for something.  We need, to quote
Metres, more "clarity and myopia."

As for Muldoon, do you think he might be a bit
condescending in his attitude towards US poetry
(those crazy Colonials, what nonsense will
they come up with next, what can one do but
throw up one's hands and let the poor things
indulge themselves). . .  if he were doing a Best 
British, would he include Tom Raworth next to
Don Paterson?  I hope he wouldn't.


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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 17 16:24:54 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:24:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lott of Words (sorry about length)
Message-ID: <200512172059.jBHKxhg1134006@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Hey Bob---

I'm sure it's somewhat different for everyone---

Of course there is the question of "serious" music--
I wasn't talking about "serious" music
(the point I was trying to make is that poetry
reaches people the way "serious" music does
but not necessarily than music in a wider sense does---
re Lott's question)

Anyway, one interesting note about this from experience---

Back in like 1988 when I was a yougish early 20s guy trying
to make a name for myself in the poetry world and all that,
I was offered to be an editorial assistant at the Philly Mag
THE PAINTED BRIDE QUARTERLY

The main editor made me sit through a 4 hour Wagner opera to test my
sophisitication. I passed the test. of course, his taste in poetry
to me at the time seemed somewhat discordant with his taste in music--

I.e. he like the really sophisticated operas etc, HIGH art with a capital H
and didn't care for Dylan, etc.
But in poetry, he liked the BLY and WRIGHT etc, and didn't care much
for say ASHBERY etc

Of course, He thought my tastes were discordant too,
 being somewhat "opposite"
but it was a fascinating conversation....

Chris

----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Lott of Words (sorry about length)
>Date: Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 4:11 AM
>

> Interesting out-louds most of which seem pretty reasonable to me, Chris.
> I'm not so sure how much I go along with your idea that we're exposed to
> music earlier than we are to poetry (to do some out-louding of my own).  In
> fact, I think you may be comparing oranges and Mcintosh Apples--that is, the
> general category of music to the subcategory (under literature) of poetry.
> And I tend to think kids get exposed mainly to simple music--and equally to
> simple poems (nursery rhymes, etc.)  I think people in general get no more
> of a headstart toward appreciating advanced music (for me, serious jazz and
> classical, only--though there are many many pop songs I love) than they do
> toward appreciating the advanced literature that ambitious poetry is.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sat Dec 17 16:34:48 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:34:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2A@mail.emerson.edu>

and why the hell is an Irish poet editing BAP
to begin with?   can you imagine an 
US poet being invited to edit BIP?

I remember reading the Penquin "New British 
Poets" back in the 1980s and feeling
irritated that they included Heaney and Muldoon. . .

Irish poets get included in anthols of British
poetry, but anthols of Irish poetry include only 
Irish poets. . .  
 they should make up their 
bloody minds, are they Irish or British, 
if they're Irish then they should publish only
in anthols of Irish poetry. . . 
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From mbyrne at risd.edu  Sat Dec 17 16:40:45 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:40:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
Message-ID: <s3a43fa0.096@risd.edu>

Dear William,

I think your point is interesting, re Tom Raworth and Don Paterson side-by-side.  In the context of a Contemporary British Poetry anthology, this might be jarring (not a bad thing).  In the context of "Best British Poems Published in 2005," I think there is more latitude.

Also, while it's not my place to speak for Paul Muldoon (and your words-in-his-mouth below don't ring true to me), I do think he's someone who's culturally steeped in borders: living on or near the border, living in and between two cultures, states, etc, in Armagh.  I don't know his legal status in America (whether he is a resident alien, immigrant, or citizen), but he has spent close to a couple of decades teaching and earning a living here.  I doubt very much if he's condescending.  Also, an Irish person would be unlikely to view Americans as "Colonials."

Mairead

>>> William_Knott at emerson.edu 12/17/05 3:57 PM >>>


As for Muldoon, do you think he might be a bit
condescending in his attitude towards US poetry
(those crazy Colonials, what nonsense will
they come up with next, what can one do but
throw up one's hands and let the poor things
indulge themselves). . .  if he were doing a Best 
British, would he include Tom Raworth next to
Don Paterson?  I hope he wouldn't.






From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 17:04:47 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:04:47 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512171404s7ba19641v17b2370a4d8bfa90@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:
> Whereas If I edited it, I'd do
> the opposite and choose SOQs only.  We need
> more absolutists, more poets and editors willing
> to stand for something.  We need, to quote
> Metres, more "clarity and myopia."

If that's "standing for something" then we need less, not more of it.
Why not stand for this: good poems? That seems like something a lot
more fruitful and interesting than "my favorite school."

If I were editing, I'd pick the best poems I could without regard to
whether they were SOQ or PA or any of a hundred other things. You've
got the myopic part labelled right, at least.

c



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Dec 17 17:13:50 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:13:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon
Message-ID: <25.6de63ae9.30d5e79e@aol.com>

 

Bill,
This is ridiculous. I don't see why a non-native
can't be editor of BAP.Or included as a poet
in that anthology for that matter. And Mairead already
pointed out Muldoon's long and close association
with the U.S. poetry scene.   
Hard and fast borders don't exist. Lots of Irish
(particularly working class) have lived or were born
and grew up in Britain. I'll give you one example
from the art world, the painter Hugh O'Donnell.
_http://www.graphicstudio.usf.edu/ODonnell.html_ 
(http://www.graphicstudio.usf.edu/ODonnell.html) 
He now has lived in the States for a good number
of years. By your reasoning he couldn't be in
an Irish, British or U.S. collection of painters.
 
Besides, since almost all the editors have 
rejected the part of title that is 'Best', we can
easily say the same about 'American'; and
I know many have argued that what gets between
those covers isn't 'Poetry' for that matter. 
That leaves us with the year as the only fixity...
but a good poem can never fettered by time, 
so I guess the whole of the title is misnomer. 
Finnegan
 
 
In a message dated 12/17/2005 4:35:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
William_Knott at emerson.edu writes:

and why  the hell is an Irish poet editing BAP
to begin with?   can you  imagine an 
US poet being invited to edit BIP?

I remember reading  the Penquin "New British 
Poets" back in the 1980s and feeling
irritated  that they included Heaney and Muldoon. . .

Irish poets get included in  anthols of British
poetry, but anthols of Irish poetry include only  
Irish poets. . .  
they should make up their 
bloody minds, are  they Irish or British, 
if they're Irish then they should publish  only
in anthols of Irish poetry. . . 




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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 17 17:52:07 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:52:07 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
Message-ID: <200512172226.jBHMQvi8261830@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Bill---you don't go far enough into clarity and myopia, methinkS

Absolutism, an ANTHOLOGY of poems only written by YOU
would be even better---you could use pseudonyms of course--
maybe you and that Saint Gerard guy.

I know Eddie Grant did that with Club Ska in the late 60s....

Chris

----------
>From: Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
>Date: Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 2:04 PM
>

>  Whereas If I edited it, I'd do
>> the opposite and choose SOQs only.  We need
>> more absolutists, more poets and editors willing
>> to stand for something.  We need, to quote
>> Metres, more "clarity and myopia."


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Dec 17 18:23:57 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:23:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Matt Cook
Message-ID: <BFC9FA2D.1698B%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Here's one from the new collection.


Memoir

When the drunk man tells you about his day,
He's speaking from autobiography.
When the four disappointing old men
Attempt to impress the one disappointing young woman,
Frequently, they're speaking from autobiography.
Who knew that it was possible to make a mockery of a puppet show?
Oftentimes a man is not intelligent enough to know
That his intelligence has just been insulted--
When this happens, the man finds himself neither intelligent nor insulted,
Which, in a way, is brilliant and infuriating.
Only a schizophrenic man will actually call a radio station with a request.
When I was a boy, there were people who would tell jokes about
Countries that performed poorly during the Second World War.
The theme still had a certain resonance somehow.
The jokes would involve representatives of
Different nationalities parachuting out of an airplane--
The last person to fall to the ground revealed the point of the story.
Will artificial intelligence
Ever advance to the point of appreciating an insult?
Just listen to the man tell you about the things he saw on television--
Just listen to him; he  speaking from autobiography.


--Matt Cook.  Eavesdrop Soup.  Manic D Press, 2005.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sat Dec 17 18:41:15 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:41:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2B@mail.emerson.edu>

Muldoon is an Irish poet when his work
is published in anthols of Irish Poetry,
but when he's included in the Penguin 
New British Poetry, what is he then?

and I still insist it's wrong for him to edit 
BAP rather than BIP.  . . but I think I 
understand the slimy political reasons
he was chosen to do it. . .  

Sam Hamill would have done a better
job, or Sharon Olds, or Mark Halliday, or
any of a dozen others. . .

*
More myopia is my cry.  One must try 
to maintain some standards of taste. . .

Putting Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein
together in your magazine could be 
praised or damned with the term 
schizophrenic-ergo-postmodern,
perhaps, but to me it's just wishywashiness,
fencestraddling, dilettantism.

Which you can't accuse Silliman of:
he has the courage of his convictions,
his position is adamant, and therefore
admirable.

If I edited BAP I would include only SOQs
because the best contemporary poetry
is being written only by SOQs.  

Don Paterson's introduction to the recent
anthol New British Poetry deals interestingly
with this question, and the either/or of it.
I defer to him.


*



























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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 19:10:09 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:10:09 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2B@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512171610k58ef61fbwab2fe816f28f149e@mail.gmail.com>

It's pretty sad when wearing blinders becomes an admirable trait.

c



From pmetres at jcu.edu  Sat Dec 17 19:14:13 2005
From: pmetres at jcu.edu (Philip Metres)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:14:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry, continued
Message-ID: <20051217191413.BKG62843@mirapoint.jcu.edu>

Chris, Chris, Bob (Grumble), Mairead, et. al.,

Thanks for your responses.  

I like the choice/tradition of calling it "Best" just 
because that make it immediately controversial.  Just about 
every editor (except Bloom) has hemmed and hawed about best-
ness, as a reflex gesture of self-protection.  But why 
should anyone read it if it were Just a Bunch of Poems that 
X May Have Happened to Like, even though that's what it 
tends to be?

Actually, I think there are poems in the anthology that, if 
a gun were put to Muldoon's head, he would say that he 
didn't care for them.  Broad taste is not necessarily bad 
taste, incoherence of taste.    

Of course it is a Mix Tape.  It is "Being John Malkovich" 
for the poetry set. 

Stroffolino, more importantly, do you really play in the 
Silver Jews?  


Philip Metres
Assistant Professor
Department of English
John Carroll University
20700 N. Park Blvd
University Heights, OH 44118
(216) 397-4528 (work)
http://www.philipmetres.com


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 19:40:56 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:40:56 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry, continued
In-Reply-To: <20051217191413.BKG62843@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
References: <20051217191413.BKG62843@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512171640i5dc2651auc2eb585d8dd7ac75@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/05, Philip Metres <pmetres at jcu.edu> wrote:
> But why
> should anyone read it if it were Just a Bunch of Poems that
> X May Have Happened to Like

Because 1) there is no other authentic kind of selection and 2) it
makes for potentially the best kind of reading.

> Actually, I think there are poems in the anthology that, if
> a gun were put to Muldoon's head, he would say that he
> didn't care for them.

I don't see any evidence to support this assertion. I suspect it comes
from a conception of aesthetics that would cast all whose tastes run
across schools as shams. Maybe Bill Knott will be happy to have found
a post-avant ally in this kind of silly thinking at least.

c



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sat Dec 17 20:21:26 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 01:21:26 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <02a101c60371$5e5eb290$616e9056@PC232542321673>

From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>

<<
Muldoon is an Irish poet when his work
is published in anthols of Irish Poetry,
but when he's included in the Penguin
New British Poetry, what is he then?
>>

British, subvariety Northern Irish, Bill -- last I heard, Belfast was still 
in the UK, and Muldoon emerged from the Belfast Group in the sixties which 
included Heaney, Derrick Mahon, and Michael Longley, among others.

If by "the Penguin New British Poetry", you're referring to the 
Motion/Morrison Penguin anthology, +Contemporary British Poetry+, it would 
have been better titled +Poetry from Northern Ireland and England (and 
excluding Wales and Scotland) by mostly men, with the odd woman (Anne 
Stevenson and Maibh McGukin [sp?]) chucked in at the last minute+.  And at 
that, Anne was born in America and spent the first twenty or so years of her 
life there.

CBP isn't actually bad, if you take account of its limits -- there are good 
selections of Tony Harrison, Tom Paulin (like Muldoon, with a partly Belfast 
background) and James Fenton, among others.  But Jeezus, talk about narrow 
...

Robin Hamilton














o maintain some standards of taste. . .

Putting Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein
together in your magazine could be
praised or damned with the term
schizophrenic-ergo-postmodern,
perhaps, but to me it's just wishywashiness,
fencestraddling, dilettantism.

Which you can't accuse Silliman of:
he has the courage of his convictions,
his position is adamant, and therefore
admirable.

If I edited BAP I would include only SOQs
because the best contemporary poetry
is being written only by SOQs.

Don Paterson's introduction to the recent
anthol New British Poetry deals interestingly
with this question, and the either/or of it.
I defer to him.


*






























--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 21:48:14 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:48:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net><9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com><001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0512170940q4d2e3584t1984d01eec491bd1@mail.gmail.com><008301c6033b$29b10a60$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512171231yc5defaen8b8d400b03633e24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c6037d$7ea2c670$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> But that which he admires must be a bit broader than many to raise
> such questions and allow him to include what he did in the anthology,
> no? That was the original question to which you responded.

I felt I was mainly responding to an opinion that he had avant garde stuff 
in the anthology.  I suppose his range, as evidenced by his selections, is 
broader than other mainstreamers, but not very broad by my standards.

> I'm still curious about what jazz you listen to-- purely out of 
> curiosity...
>
> c

Alas, I don't have broad taste in music.  I like Broadway musicals, and 
classical music up through Glass (who is sort of the equivalent of Ashbery) 
but don't like much of the work of  the dissonants, or equivalents of the 
extreme language poets, in a way.

I only know enough about jazz to respect it as serious music.  I've listened 
to it occasionally on radio and like some of it, but find some of it 
(ought-oh) too predictable; I haven't heard any that made me desperate to 
find more by whoever wrote and/or played it.  But I haven't listened to it 
seriously, either.  I would like to have time to, but probably never will. 
Oh, I love ragtime--Joplin and the rest, but consider that part of classical 
music now--with the Strausses' waltzes.

--Bob G.




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 17 22:17:25 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:17:25 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry, continued
Message-ID: <200512180252.jBI2qDnG143086@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

yeah, phil---could we take this backchannel?

C

----------
>From: Philip Metres <pmetres at jcu.edu>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry, continued
>Date: Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 4:14 PM
>

> Stroffolino, more importantly, do you really play in the
> Silver Jews?
>
>
> Philip Metres
> Assistant Professor
> Department of English
> John Carroll University
> 20700 N. Park Blvd
> University Heights, OH 44118
> (216) 397-4528 (work)


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 21:53:13 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:53:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2A@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <00c301c6037e$3078bee0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

and why the hell is an Irish poet editing BAP
to begin with?   can you imagine an
US poet being invited to edit BIP?

As long as they choose someone unfamiliar with contemporary American poetry, 
what difference does the person's nationality make?

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 21:55:44 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:55:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512171404s7ba19641v17b2370a4d8bfa90@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cc01c6037e$8a61b6a0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>
> If that's "standing for something" then we need less, not more of it.
> Why not stand for this: good poems? That seems like something a lot
> more fruitful and interesting than "my favorite school."
>
> If I were editing, I'd pick the best poems I could without regard to
> whether they were SOQ or PA or any of a hundred other things. You've
> got the myopic part labelled right, at least.
>
> c

Ah, what would REALLY be nice would be ten or fifteen books, each a 
collection of the best poems of a certain school.  But--tah dah--we'd need a 
decent list of schools of contemporary poetry to do that, and that's taboo.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Dec 17 22:01:25 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:01:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry, continued
References: <20051217191413.BKG62843@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512171640i5dc2651auc2eb585d8dd7ac75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c6037f$55d8f690$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 12/17/05, Philip Metres <pmetres at jcu.edu> wrote:
>> But why
>> should anyone read it if it were Just a Bunch of Poems that
>> X May Have Happened to Like
>
> Because 1) there is no other authentic kind of selection and 2) it
> makes for potentially the best kind of reading.

And because it's bad for the morale of the excluded poets, especially when 
some of them are composing much better poems than are in the anthology. 
It's bad for their income, too.  The result in many cases is less good 
poetry's being composed, which is bad for the world.

--Bob G. 




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 23:36:44 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:36:44 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry, continued
In-Reply-To: <00ea01c6037f$55d8f690$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <20051217191413.BKG62843@mirapoint.jcu.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512171640i5dc2651auc2eb585d8dd7ac75@mail.gmail.com>
	<00ea01c6037f$55d8f690$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512172036h6413c0d7g950ed596793d7b08@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> And because it's bad for the morale of the excluded poets, especially when
> some of them are composing much better poems than are in the anthology.
> It's bad for their income, too.  The result in many cases is less good
> poetry's being composed, which is bad for the world.

If poems were selected the way I propose, then those poems would be
included-- the real cream would rise to the top. Choosing on the basis
of ideology simply ensures the very exclusion you earlier complained
about.

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 23:43:45 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:43:45 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
In-Reply-To: <00cc01c6037e$8a61b6a0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512171404s7ba19641v17b2370a4d8bfa90@mail.gmail.com>
	<00cc01c6037e$8a61b6a0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512172043s66ac15c6s41f5497ce8d943ce@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Ah, what would REALLY be nice would be ten or fifteen books, each a
> collection of the best poems of a certain school.  But--tah dah--we'd need a
> decent list of schools of contemporary poetry to do that, and that's taboo.

Intuitively, it feels like those kinds of attempts at segregation lead
to more problems than they do benefits. Maybe that's why there's so
much natural resistance to the attempts at creating labels and boxes
to put poems in.

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 23:51:29 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:51:29 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
In-Reply-To: <00a601c6037d$7ea2c670$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
	<9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com>
	<001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512170940q4d2e3584t1984d01eec491bd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301c6033b$29b10a60$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512171231yc5defaen8b8d400b03633e24@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a601c6037d$7ea2c670$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512172051w9be73b2sa4b03d4d1cb0a6da@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Alas, I don't have broad taste in music.

Too bad... I'd be very curious how you feel about the avant garde
musicians (thinking of Jazz here, with which I am more familiar) and
their projects and whether those feelings are at odds with your
feelings about (what I see as) their equivalents in the post avant
poetry world. Such parallels are endlessly fascinating to think about,
though my own tastes are full of contradictions in that regard as
well.

And then there is the third part of the triad-- visual arts. For some
reason I find it strange that people can have such divergent tastes
(in terms of how "progressive" they are) between the three major art
forms...

c



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 18 04:21:39 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:21:39 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] From Keillor's Almanac
Message-ID: <004f01c603b4$7416b680$afd83052@ANNY>

Poem: "Criss Cross Apple Sauce" by Thomas Lux from New & Selected Poems. ? Houghton Mifflin. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) 

Criss Cross Apple Sauce 

Criss cross apple sauce
do me a favor and get lost
while you're at it drop dead
then come back without a head
my daughter sings for me
when I ask her what she learned in school today
as we drive from her mother's house to mine.
She knows I like some things that rhyme.
She sings another she knows I like:
Trick of treat, trick or treat
give me something good to eat
if you don't I don't care
I'll put apples in your underwear...
Apples in your underwear-I like that more
than Lautremont's umbrella
on the operating table, I say to her
and ask her if she sees the parallel.
She says no but she prefers the apples too.
Sitting on a bench
nothing to do
along come some boys-p.u., p.u., p.u.
my daughter sings
my daughter with her buffalo-sized heart,
my daughter brilliant and kind,
my daughter singing
as we drive from her mother's house to mine.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 06:03:58 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 06:03:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry, continued
References: <20051217191413.BKG62843@mirapoint.jcu.edu><9b1b9dab0512171640i5dc2651auc2eb585d8dd7ac75@mail.gmail.com><00ea01c6037f$55d8f690$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512172036h6413c0d7g950ed596793d7b08@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c603c2$c16f1860$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> And because it's bad for the morale of the excluded poets, especially 
>> when
>> some of them are composing much better poems than are in the anthology.
>> It's bad for their income, too.  The result in many cases is less good
>> poetry's being composed, which is bad for the world.
>
> If poems were selected the way I propose, then those poems would be
> included-- the real cream would rise to the top. Choosing on the basis
> of ideology simply ensures the very exclusion you earlier complained
> about.
>
> c

What in the world have I said that indicates I believe in choosing on the 
basis of any other ideology than the belief that all schools of poetry 
should be represented in SOME mass-produced anthology?  Unless you consider 
my implied opposition to choosing poems based on political correctness an 
ideology, which it is, I guess.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 06:12:06 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 06:12:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu><9b1b9dab0512171404s7ba19641v17b2370a4d8bfa90@mail.gmail.com><00cc01c6037e$8a61b6a0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512172043s66ac15c6s41f5497ce8d943ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c603c3$e22e77c0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> Ah, what would REALLY be nice would be ten or fifteen books, each a
>> collection of the best poems of a certain school.  But--tah dah--we'd 
>> need a
>> decent list of schools of contemporary poetry to do that, and that's 
>> taboo.
>
> Intuitively, it feels like those kinds of attempts at segregation lead
> to more problems than they do benefits. Maybe that's why there's so
> much natural resistance to the attempts at creating labels and boxes
> to put poems in.
>
> c

I think the natural tendency for the haves is to make sure the one big box 
of standard poems that people like David Graham consider the only box of 
value is protected against the competition of the have-nots.  A nameless 
school of poetry is going to have trouble becoming known, and competitive. 
Another problem is the fear of poets that their poems will be incorrectly 
boxed.

A major fear of many poets is that their tricks may be revealed by analysis, 
and naming helps with analysis; they want to be considered too ethereal for 
description--magic.

Finally, most poets are defective in what I call reducticeptuality--the 
ability to reason and analyze.  So they instinctively oppose it.

In any case, people have to name, so boxes can't be avoided.  The aim, 
therefore, should be making sure the boxes we end up with make sense.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 06:17:16 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 06:17:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net><9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com><001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0512170940q4d2e3584t1984d01eec491bd1@mail.gmail.com><008301c6033b$29b10a60$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><9b1b9dab0512171231yc5defaen8b8d400b03633e24@mail.gmail.com><00a601c6037d$7ea2c670$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512172051w9be73b2sa4b03d4d1cb0a6da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c603c4$9ac03940$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> Alas, I don't have broad taste in music.
>
> Too bad... I'd be very curious how you feel about the avant garde
> musicians (thinking of Jazz here, with which I am more familiar) and
> their projects and whether those feelings are at odds with your
> feelings about (what I see as) their equivalents in the post avant
> poetry world. Such parallels are endlessly fascinating to think about,
> though my own tastes are full of contradictions in that regard as
> well.

> And then there is the third part of the triad-- visual arts. For some
> reason I find it strange that people can have such divergent tastes
> (in terms of how "progressive" they are) between the three major art
> forms...

There's also science.  Many who are very accepting of plodding, outdated 
sciences, want innovation in the arts.  Etc.  A problem for anybody, though, 
is lack of time to learn all the arts and sciences well enough to have fully 
realized tastes in all of them.

--Bob G.


> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sun Dec 18 09:05:47 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:05:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2C@mail.emerson.edu>

the puzzle of Muldoon's contradictory selections
is solved if one imagines that he didn't make
those choices, he didn't edit it, he's just a 
figurehead, a brandname they slap on the 
cover to sell it, and that the actual editing was done
by gradschool drones. . . 

do you remember the highpoint of this series,
Mark Strand's selection, the "Sitcom Haiku"
of David Trinidad?  Did Strand really choose that
as one of the year's best poems?   I wouldn't
advise him to present it to the gatekeeper of
Parnassus . . .

Have any of those famous names blazoning
the BAPs ever done the actual editing?  I wonder. . .

(sour grapes of course, since i've never been
in BAP and never will be)

Cut out two-thirds of the entries in Poets Market
and you still got 500 mags.  Cut out half of them
(but why? is that fair?) and you got 200, each
publishing approx. 50-100 poems a year. . . 
oh what is the number?  How many poems 
are published in the United States every year?
How can one editor read them all.   I assume
that BAP, like many publications, uses
screeners. . . but who screens the screeners?

"Put[ting] a gun to [his] head" is too
American an idiom to apply to Muldoon, but
then I guess he is an American poet now,
that is, when he's not busy being a British
poet, I mean an Irish poet.












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From mbyrne at risd.edu  Sun Dec 18 09:06:28 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:06:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
Message-ID: <s3a526a2.049@risd.edu>

This is so bizarre, I probably should not reply but have decided to do so as the attitudes William expresses about nationality and identity have historically caused great misery in Ireland, and most other countries, including the United States.

I did a bit of homework and was interested to discover that Paul Muldoon is an American citizen and has been for some time.  He has lived and worked in America for a long time, and is not naive or unsophisticated about American poetry.  In fact, he may well *be* an American poet.

There is nothing adamantine about nationality.  While Muldoon is an American citizen, because the United States requires new citizens to renounce previous citizenship, and the Republic of Ireland turns a blind eye to the renunciation, he may well be a citizen of two countries, that is, if indeed he is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.  He may in fact be a British citizen, in which case the Republic of Ireland, in  which case, as an inhabitant of a disputed territory, the Republic of Ireland would have extended Irish citizenship to him, if he wanted it.  I don't know his choices in this matter.  Because of tortured relationships between countries, notions of monopoly and exclusivity, and various refusals to recognize, Paul Muldoon could actually be a citizen of three countries.  Lawyers, correct me if I am wrong.

Anthologies are categories, and categories are useful, even essential, up to a point.  Politically, the insistence on the rigidity of boundaries and borders has caused great misery.  In poetry, which is fired by the ultimate boundary-crosser metaphor, insisting on rigid boundaries makes no sense.

Mairead

>>> William_Knott at emerson.edu 12/17/05 6:41 PM >>>
Muldoon is an Irish poet when his work
is published in anthols of Irish Poetry,
but when he's included in the Penguin 
New British Poetry, what is he then?

and I still insist it's wrong for him to edit 
BAP rather than BIP.  . . but I think I 
understand the slimy political reasons
he was chosen to do it. . .  

Sam Hamill would have done a better
job, or Sharon Olds, or Mark Halliday, or
any of a dozen others. . .

*
More myopia is my cry.  One must try 
to maintain some standards of taste. . .

Putting Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein
together in your magazine could be 
praised or damned with the term 
schizophrenic-ergo-postmodern,
perhaps, but to me it's just wishywashiness,
fencestraddling, dilettantism.

Which you can't accuse Silliman of:
he has the courage of his convictions,
his position is adamant, and therefore
admirable.

If I edited BAP I would include only SOQs
because the best contemporary poetry
is being written only by SOQs.  

Don Paterson's introduction to the recent
anthol New British Poetry deals interestingly
with this question, and the either/or of it.
I defer to him.


*































From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 18 09:22:24 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:22:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2C@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2C@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <97BAB790-0EBB-4362-A7E3-02674DB6D477@earthlink.net>

The puzzle is also solved if one stops assuming that
writers only "like" the kind of work that they themselves
produce.

Hal

On Dec 18, 2005, at 9:05 AM, William Knott wrote:

> the puzzle of Muldoon's contradictory selections
> is solved if one imagines that he didn't make
> those choices, he didn't edit it, he's just a
> figurehead, a brandname they slap on the
> cover to sell it, and that the actual editing was done
> by gradschool drones. . .
>
> do you remember the highpoint of this series,
> Mark Strand's selection, the "Sitcom Haiku"
> of David Trinidad?  Did Strand really choose that
> as one of the year's best poems?   I wouldn't
> advise him to present it to the gatekeeper of
> Parnassus . . .
>
> Have any of those famous names blazoning
> the BAPs ever done the actual editing?  I wonder. . .
>
> (sour grapes of course, since i've never been
> in BAP and never will be)
>
> Cut out two-thirds of the entries in Poets Market
> and you still got 500 mags.  Cut out half of them
> (but why? is that fair?) and you got 200, each
> publishing approx. 50-100 poems a year. . .
> oh what is the number?  How many poems
> are published in the United States every year?
> How can one editor read them all.   I assume
> that BAP, like many publications, uses
> screeners. . . but who screens the screeners?
>
> "Put[ting] a gun to [his] head" is too
> American an idiom to apply to Muldoon, but
> then I guess he is an American poet now,
> that is, when he's not busy being a British
> poet, I mean an Irish poet.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <winmail.dat>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Hal            "How beautiful it is to do nothing,
                    and then rest afterward."
                                 --Spanish proverb

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 18 09:53:32 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:53:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <s3a526a2.049@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <00b901c603e2$d113dd30$afd83052@ANNY>

hi Mairead,

citizenship makes sense only at a political level which means at an economic 
level, that low we have got and have always been since the beginning as 
human race. I value Muldoon as a poet and I am very happy he chose to be an 
American citizen. The distinction in-between American, British and Irish, 
even if it is well clear to me, might not to the majority of beings on this 
earth. Three passports are thrice as many taxes to pay. Anyhow, isn't there 
a European passport with written on the front cover Ireland or Great Britain 
in his case, thus Paul Muldoon, very gifted Poet is also property of Europe, 
wonderful_ indeed (well yes, if he accepted the "privilege" given to him by 
Ireland or GB),

this thought made my day,

and with Amelia Rosselli, Italy is a barbaric country,

best wishes, Anny

From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:06 PM


> This is so bizarre, I probably should not reply but have decided to do so 
> as the attitudes William expresses about nationality and identity have 
> historically caused great misery in Ireland, and most other countries, 
> including the United States.
>
> I did a bit of homework and was interested to discover that Paul Muldoon 
> is an American citizen and has been for some time.  He has lived and 
> worked in America for a long time, and is not naive or unsophisticated 
> about American poetry.  In fact, he may well *be* an American poet.
>
> There is nothing adamantine about nationality.  While Muldoon is an 
> American citizen, because the United States requires new citizens to 
> renounce previous citizenship, and the Republic of Ireland turns a blind 
> eye to the renunciation, he may well be a citizen of two countries, that 
> is, if indeed he is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.  He may in fact 
> be a British citizen, in which case the Republic of Ireland, in  which 
> case, as an inhabitant of a disputed territory, the Republic of Ireland 
> would have extended Irish citizenship to him, if he wanted it.  I don't 
> know his choices in this matter.  Because of tortured relationships 
> between countries, notions of monopoly and exclusivity, and various 
> refusals to recognize, Paul Muldoon could actually be a citizen of three 
> countries.  Lawyers, correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Anthologies are categories, and categories are useful, even essential, up 
> to a point.  Politically, the insistence on the rigidity of boundaries and 
> borders has caused great misery.  In poetry, which is fired by the 
> ultimate boundary-crosser metaphor, insisting on rigid boundaries makes no 
> sense.
>
> Mairead
>
>>>> William_Knott at emerson.edu 12/17/05 6:41 PM >>>
> Muldoon is an Irish poet when his work
> is published in anthols of Irish Poetry,
> but when he's included in the Penguin
> New British Poetry, what is he then?
>
> and I still insist it's wrong for him to edit
> BAP rather than BIP.  . . but I think I
> understand the slimy political reasons
> he was chosen to do it. . .
>
> Sam Hamill would have done a better
> job, or Sharon Olds, or Mark Halliday, or
> any of a dozen others. . .
>
> *
> More myopia is my cry.  One must try
> to maintain some standards of taste. . .
>
> Putting Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein
> together in your magazine could be
> praised or damned with the term
> schizophrenic-ergo-postmodern,
> perhaps, but to me it's just wishywashiness,
> fencestraddling, dilettantism.
>
> Which you can't accuse Silliman of:
> he has the courage of his convictions,
> his position is adamant, and therefore
> admirable.
>
> If I edited BAP I would include only SOQs
> because the best contemporary poetry
> is being written only by SOQs.
>
> Don Paterson's introduction to the recent
> anthol New British Poetry deals interestingly
> with this question, and the either/or of it.
> I defer to him.
>
>
> *




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec 18 11:05:12 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:05:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with david graham
In-Reply-To: <000f01c603c3$e22e77c0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BFCAE4D8.169D0%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 12/18/05 5:12 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

> I think the natural tendency for the haves is to make sure the one big box
> of standard poems that people like David Graham consider the only box of
> value is protected against the competition of the have-nots.


I'm just really enjoying being thought of as a "have."  Look on my works, ye
Mighty, and despair!

Also, please hurry up and anthologize *me* in the BAP, so I may better
effect my nefarious designs.

I guess one could also have a discussion about what "one big box of standard
poems" actually means, if anything--but on second thought, no.  We've had
that discussion a couple dozen times, and Bob G. continues to misrepresent
what I say.

So off with his head!  That's my first edict as Poetry Czar.  Next, I'm
going after that Lehman character.  And, Jorie, watch your back!. . . .
Until everyone agrees with me, there's gonna be blood on the floor all over
town.

I have spoken, and I agree with me.

In that spirit, here's another Matt Cook poem.

James Joyce

James Joyce
He was stupid
He didn't know as much as me
I'd rather throw dead batteries at cows
Than read him
Everything was going fine
Before he came along
He started the Civil War
He tried to get the French involved
But they wouldn't listen
They filled him up with desserts
He talked about all the great boxers
That came from Ireland
Like he trained 'em or something
Then he started reading some of his stuff
Right as we told him to get lost
He brought up the potato famine
We said "Your potatoes are plenty good.
Deal with it!  Work it out somehow!"
Then he said "America must adopt the metric system.
It's much more logical."  We said "No !
We like our rulers!  Go away!"
Thomas Jefferson said,
"You always get the rulers you deserve."

--Matt Cook.  *In the Small of My Backyard*.  Manic D Press, 2002.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 11:06:20 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:06:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <s3a526a2.049@risd.edu> <00b901c603e2$d113dd30$afd83052@ANNY>
Message-ID: <003f01c603ec$fc8fde50$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I consider all the English-speaking countries a cingle entity.  Just gotta 
keep the Italians out of it!

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 18 11:13:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:13:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <s3a526a2.049@risd.edu> <00b901c603e2$d113dd30$afd83052@ANNY>
	<003f01c603ec$fc8fde50$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006401c603ed$f9c04e20$afd83052@ANNY>

More or less that was the leitmotiv, thank you for singing it so clearly,
cheers, Anny

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
&amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism


>I consider all the English-speaking countries a cingle entity.  Just gotta 
>keep the Italians out of it!
>
> --Bob G.




From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Dec 18 11:17:03 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:17:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <s3a526a2.049@risd.edu> <00b901c603e2$d113dd30$afd83052@ANNY>
	<003f01c603ec$fc8fde50$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <001701c603ee$7bdb57b0$6600a8c0@Helen>

Should that be "cringle"?
Isn't Santa Eyetalian?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism


>I consider all the English-speaking countries a cingle entity.  Just gotta 
>keep the Italians out of it!
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 11:53:28 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:53:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with david graham
References: <BFCAE4D8.169D0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007401c603f3$921dca80$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

i agree with david graham> I think the natural tendency for the haves is to make sure the one big box 
> of standard poems that people like David Graham consider the only box of 
> value is protected against the competition of the have-nots.

I'm just really enjoying being thought of as a "have."  Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

I tend to think of a professor as a have compared with a high school substitute teacher.  

Also, please hurry up and anthologize *me* in the BAP, so I may better effect my nefarious designs.  

Never accused you of anything more nefarious than complacency and being a reactionary when it comes to poetry, David.

I guess one could also have a discussion about what "one big box of standard poems" actually means, if anything--but on second thought, no.  We've had that discussion a couple dozen times, and Bob G. continues to misrepresent what I say.

Right, so you should know it's the kind of poetry that gets published by the New Yorker, etc., taught in colleges, written about by such as Logan, etc.  I may misrepresent some statement of yours about how supportive of all kinds of poetry you are, but other words of yours tell me you have no problem with what I deem gross omissions in anthologies claiming to cover the whole of serious, good contemporary poetry.

So off with his head!  That's my first edict as Poetry Czar.  Next, I'm going after that Lehman character.  And, Jorie, watch your back!. . . .  Until everyone agrees with me, there's gonna be blood on the floor all over town.

Your satire would be better if more accurate: I only want people to agree with me that widely-circulated anthologies should occasionally have my kind of poetry in them, and the Logans of our small world should deign to notice it once in a while, etc.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 11:56:58 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:56:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <s3a526a2.049@risd.edu>
	<00b901c603e2$d113dd30$afd83052@ANNY><003f01c603ec$fc8fde50$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<001701c603ee$7bdb57b0$6600a8c0@Helen>
Message-ID: <007901c603f4$0f65c830$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Should that be "cringle"?

Actually, it should be "chringle."

> Isn't Santa Eyetalian?

I thought he was an A-rab.  Doesn't matter, he's got to be kept out!

--Bob G.

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
>
>
>>I consider all the English-speaking countries a cingle entity.  Just gotta 
>>keep the Italians out of it!
>>
>> --Bob G.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and 
> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from 
> www.choicemailfree.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sun Dec 18 12:10:56 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:10:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the great Irish-British-American poet
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2D@mail.emerson.edu>

David Graham would have been a better bapper
than Muldoon.  

*
I don't edit The X Anthology of Irish Poetry or
The X Anthology of British Poetry or The X Anthology
of American Poetry. . . I don't create these
categories, editors publishers et al do it . . .

theoretically all poetry written in English
should be considered, but in practice
the Po-Biz powers make these divisions. . .
 
am I the only one who thinks it's unfair that
Muldoon can be simultaneously presented
in these separate venues?  
That he is, depending on the caprice of
various editors or publishers, anything they
want him to be, Irish, British, American,
or what next?

Uh, his poetry transcends national boundaries?
sorry, I don't agree.  To me it doesn't even
transcend itself.  

(and what about The X Anthology of Australian
Poetry, why isn't Muldoon in that?  If he's
in the Irish/British/American anthols, 
why not the Australian and the Canadian
and every other anthol that includes verse
in English?)













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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 12:17:55 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:17:55 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with philip metres
In-Reply-To: <000f01c603c3$e22e77c0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512171404s7ba19641v17b2370a4d8bfa90@mail.gmail.com>
	<00cc01c6037e$8a61b6a0$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512172043s66ac15c6s41f5497ce8d943ce@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01c603c3$e22e77c0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512180917r3f33780fx503bd900da2fc7c6@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> In any case, people have to name, so boxes can't be avoided.  The aim,
> therefore, should be making sure the boxes we end up with make sense.

Seems like a cure that's worse than the disease.

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 12:19:27 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:19:27 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] best american poetry 2005
In-Reply-To: <001b01c603c4$9ac03940$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <200512170430.jBH4Uju9177420@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>
	<9b1b9dab0512162135l6953accfi5d8808cf4221a158@mail.gmail.com>
	<001c01c60300$bfa65470$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512170940q4d2e3584t1984d01eec491bd1@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301c6033b$29b10a60$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512171231yc5defaen8b8d400b03633e24@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a601c6037d$7ea2c670$a1b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0512172051w9be73b2sa4b03d4d1cb0a6da@mail.gmail.com>
	<001b01c603c4$9ac03940$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512180919h5e1f5807t1216f672b667a479@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> There's also science.  Many who are very accepting of plodding, outdated
> sciences, want innovation in the arts.  Etc.  A problem for anybody, though,
> is lack of time to learn all the arts and sciences well enough to have fully
> realized tastes in all of them.

True, but it's still interesting to me how many do have relatively
well developed tastes in more than one field that don't parallel one
another as closely as I used to expect. It rather seems to be the norm
that there is a wide divergence.

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 12:20:29 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:20:29 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
In-Reply-To: <97BAB790-0EBB-4362-A7E3-02674DB6D477@earthlink.net>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2C@mail.emerson.edu>
	<97BAB790-0EBB-4362-A7E3-02674DB6D477@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512180920w5bd750fft179aab613f7937c4@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> The puzzle is also solved if one stops assuming that
> writers only "like" the kind of work that they themselves
> produce.

Hey, that's my line :)

c



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 18 12:27:52 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:27:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0512180920w5bd750fft179aab613f7937c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2C@mail.emerson.edu>
	<97BAB790-0EBB-4362-A7E3-02674DB6D477@earthlink.net>
	<9b1b9dab0512180920w5bd750fft179aab613f7937c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C66E568E-A8ED-4D58-9186-C0A12F1CDEFD@earthlink.net>


On Dec 18, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Chris Lott wrote:

> On 12/18/05, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> The puzzle is also solved if one stops assuming that
>> writers only "like" the kind of work that they themselves
>> produce.
>
> Hey, that's my line :)
>
> c

Oh, all right. You can have it.

Hal               "I can't understand it. I can't even understand
                       the people who can understand it."
                                    --Queen Juliana of the Netherlands

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec 18 12:37:53 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:37:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0512180920w5bd750fft179aab613f7937c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFCAFA90.169E0%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 12/18/05 11:20 AM, Chris Lott at chris.lott at gmail.com wrote:

> On 12/18/05, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> The puzzle is also solved if one stops assuming that
>> writers only "like" the kind of work that they themselves
>> produce.
> 
> Hey, that's my line :)
> 
> c


I guess I admire this ability to appreciate writing that's not like one's
own, though it strikes me as a rather common phenomenon, actually.  I
remember being a bit surprised in my first grad school class with James Tate
to discover how much he relished poets like Lowell & Bishop.  That was my
own innocence, really, thinking he'd only enjoy whimsy and surrealism.

Not there's any firm agreed upon line between eclectism and tunnel vision,
but if I had to choose, I'd choose messy variety over uniformity of
aesthetic, no doubt.  And good luck agreeing on what actually counts as
eclectic.  As discussion hereabouts regularly demonstrates, one person's
healthy variety is another's blinkered rigidity.

I don't suppose anyone who has the Muldoon BAP to hand might like to post an
example poem or two for our perusal?  Call me crazy, but I'm in the mood to
look at some poems. . . .


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From reneea at verizon.net  Sun Dec 18 12:47:49 2005
From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:47:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon a poem
References: <BFCAFA90.169E0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <000e01c603fb$29e117d0$da66fea9@Barnette>

HELL

The second-hardest thing I have to do is not be longing's slave.

Hell is that. Hell is that, others, having a job, and not having a
job. Hell is thinking continually of those who were truly great.

Hell is the moment you realize that you were ignorant of the fact,
when it was true, that you were not yet ruined by desire.

The kind of music I want to continue hearing after I am dead is 
the kind that makes me think I will be capable of hearing it then.

There is music in Hell. Wind of desolation! It blows past the egg-
eyed statues. The canopic jars are full of secrets.

The wind blows through me. I open my mouth to speak.

I recite the list of people I have copulated with. It does not take long.
I say the names of my imaginary children. I call out four-syllable
words beginning with B. This is how I stay alive.

*Beelzebub. Brachiosaur. Bubble-headed.* I don't know how I stay alive.
What I do know is that there is a light, far above us, that goes out
when we die,

and that in Hell there is a gray tulip that grows without any sun.
It reminds me of everything I failed at,

and I water it carefully. It is all I have to remind me of you.

                -- Sarah Manguso, pp94-95 BAP05
** Words between the asterisks are in italics in the book.



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 12:48:14 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:48:14 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
In-Reply-To: <BFCAFA90.169E0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <9b1b9dab0512180920w5bd750fft179aab613f7937c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFCAFA90.169E0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512180948q5e015777if062e824019a8673@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> I guess I admire this ability to appreciate writing that's not like one's
> own, though it strikes me as a rather common phenomenon, actually.

Strange that it doesn't seem to be recognized as such here? Let's look
back at the original question that started all this:

"Perhaps I'm not giving the man credit
enough for breadth of taste, but does he really value the
4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's
poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that
matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?"

I mean, it seems pretty clear to me what is being asked.

Then we have Bob's immediate answer, which reads as a pretty clear "no" to me":

"the language poets have been acadominant for
probably ten years and are now seeping into the mainstream, so the
mediocrities editing anthologies like the BAP series have to represent them."

So, the argument would seem to be that not only is breadth of taste
unlikely, but the inclusion of the poems has to do with politics.

That has been the crux of the debate, I think. It isn't about how
broad Muldoon's taste might or might not be, but whether such breadth
is *possible* or *real*. I actually agree with Bob that this
selection, while broead for BAP, doesn't come close to representing
the "real" range. But if Bob suspects even this selection of
intellectual dishonesty, then it seems impossible that what he calls
breadth could ever exist. Well, except perhaps with himself or select
PA poets... there's always an implication that while their "side" can
see what's good across the spectrum, the other side can't.

A lot of the BAP poems can be found online. Here's a section from the
Hejinian poem in question (it is 80+ pages long in its entirety, so)

http://www.bigbridge.org/issue8/poetlhejinian.htm

c



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Dec 18 13:10:27 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:10:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] the great Irish-British-American poet
Message-ID: <263.2ace2f2.30d70013@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/18/2005 12:11:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
William_Knott at emerson.edu writes:
Uh, his poetry transcends national boundaries?
sorry, I don't agree.  To me it doesn't even
transcend itself.  

(and what about The X Anthology of Australian
Poetry, why isn't Muldoon in that?  If he's
in the Irish/British/American anthols, 
why not the Australian and the Canadian
and every other anthol that includes verse
in English?)
Muldoon may not even be the first non-native 'Murican
 to edit BAP...I believe Charles Simic edited it a few
years back. You can't be our President if you're non-native,
but as the current President has shown on numerous
occasions, there is no need of native intelligence.
Finnegan
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From mbyrne at risd.edu  Sun Dec 18 13:13:51 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:13:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
Message-ID: <s3a560af.064@risd.edu>

Dear Anny,

I agree with you about the blur between British, Irish, and American.  Three passports don't mean three sets of taxes though, as far as I know.  Also, Britain is not in the EU--I thought that was famous in Europe.  Ireland is, but the EU doesn't grant citizenship.

Bap is a very Muldoonish word.  It means bun.  

The handbag which houses passports in the Muldoon household is ginormous.  Not only are the Irish, British, and American passports stashed there but also the Canadian and Australian, and they're really huge.

Mairead



>>> anny.ballardini at tin.it 12/18/05 9:53 AM >>>
hi Mairead,

citizenship makes sense only at a political level which means at an economic 
level, that low we have got and have always been since the beginning as 
human race. I value Muldoon as a poet and I am very happy he chose to be an 
American citizen. The distinction in-between American, British and Irish, 
even if it is well clear to me, might not to the majority of beings on this 
earth. Three passports are thrice as many taxes to pay. Anyhow, isn't there 
a European passport with written on the front cover Ireland or Great Britain 
in his case, thus Paul Muldoon, very gifted Poet is also property of Europe, 
wonderful_ indeed (well yes, if he accepted the "privilege" given to him by 
Ireland or GB),

this thought made my day,

and with Amelia Rosselli, Italy is a barbaric country,

best wishes, Anny

From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:06 PM


> This is so bizarre, I probably should not reply but have decided to do so 
> as the attitudes William expresses about nationality and identity have 
> historically caused great misery in Ireland, and most other countries, 
> including the United States.
>
> I did a bit of homework and was interested to discover that Paul Muldoon 
> is an American citizen and has been for some time.  He has lived and 
> worked in America for a long time, and is not naive or unsophisticated 
> about American poetry.  In fact, he may well *be* an American poet.
>
> There is nothing adamantine about nationality.  While Muldoon is an 
> American citizen, because the United States requires new citizens to 
> renounce previous citizenship, and the Republic of Ireland turns a blind 
> eye to the renunciation, he may well be a citizen of two countries, that 
> is, if indeed he is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.  He may in fact 
> be a British citizen, in which case the Republic of Ireland, in  which 
> case, as an inhabitant of a disputed territory, the Republic of Ireland 
> would have extended Irish citizenship to him, if he wanted it.  I don't 
> know his choices in this matter.  Because of tortured relationships 
> between countries, notions of monopoly and exclusivity, and various 
> refusals to recognize, Paul Muldoon could actually be a citizen of three 
> countries.  Lawyers, correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Anthologies are categories, and categories are useful, even essential, up 
> to a point.  Politically, the insistence on the rigidity of boundaries and 
> borders has caused great misery.  In poetry, which is fired by the 
> ultimate boundary-crosser metaphor, insisting on rigid boundaries makes no 
> sense.
>
> Mairead
>
>>>> William_Knott at emerson.edu 12/17/05 6:41 PM >>>
> Muldoon is an Irish poet when his work
> is published in anthols of Irish Poetry,
> but when he's included in the Penguin
> New British Poetry, what is he then?
>
> and I still insist it's wrong for him to edit
> BAP rather than BIP.  . . but I think I
> understand the slimy political reasons
> he was chosen to do it. . .
>
> Sam Hamill would have done a better
> job, or Sharon Olds, or Mark Halliday, or
> any of a dozen others. . .
>
> *
> More myopia is my cry.  One must try
> to maintain some standards of taste. . .
>
> Putting Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein
> together in your magazine could be
> praised or damned with the term
> schizophrenic-ergo-postmodern,
> perhaps, but to me it's just wishywashiness,
> fencestraddling, dilettantism.
>
> Which you can't accuse Silliman of:
> he has the courage of his convictions,
> his position is adamant, and therefore
> admirable.
>
> If I edited BAP I would include only SOQs
> because the best contemporary poetry
> is being written only by SOQs.
>
> Don Paterson's introduction to the recent
> anthol New British Poetry deals interestingly
> with this question, and the either/or of it.
> I defer to him.
>
>
> *


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Dec 18 13:15:01 2005
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:15:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <s3a526a2.049@risd.edu><00b901c603e2$d113dd30$afd83052@ANNY><003f01c603ec$fc8fde50$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001701c603ee$7bdb57b0$6600a8c0@Helen>
	<007901c603f4$0f65c830$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003101c603fe$f6cdd960$6600a8c0@Helen>

My Buddhist Christmas haiku

When Santa asks
what you want - say you
have no wants

xxx
h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism


>> Should that be "cringle"?
>
> Actually, it should be "chringle."
>
>> Isn't Santa Eyetalian?
>
> I thought he was an A-rab.  Doesn't matter, he's got to be kept out!
>
> --Bob G.
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
>> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 11:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
>>
>>
>>>I consider all the English-speaking countries a cingle entity.  Just 
>>>gotta keep the Italians out of it!
>>>
>>> --Bob G.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and 
>> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from 
>> www.choicemailfree.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Dec 18 13:23:19 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:23:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with david graham
Message-ID: <295.2540605.30d70317@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/18/2005 11:53:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
I only want people to agree with me that widely-circulated anthologies should 
occasionally have my kind of poetry in them, and the Logans of our small 
world should deign to notice it once in a while, etc
Bob, this seems to be your recurrent & contradictory grumble: 
As you revel in your innovative and outsider status, and as you openly admit 
unfamiliarity with, if not outright disregard for, much of he mainstream and 
its primary counterstreams, you vehemently decry those institutions that leave 
unmapped those byways and undergrounds of ars poetica you favor. Can't have it 
both ways, Bod.
Finnegan
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From mbyrne at risd.edu  Sun Dec 18 13:28:50 2005
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:28:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the great Irish-British-American poet
Message-ID: <s3a56431.069@risd.edu>

Well I guess if you're born in a disputed territory or immigrate, a lot of opportunities open up.  This supports my long-held theory: immigrants have it easy.  The proper use for a passort of course is to keep it in a very safe place.  Better still -- never get one.  If you do move around, even if you are a poet, opportunities may present.  Twenty years here.  Ten years there.  My god, the promiscuity of it.  
Mairead

>>> William_Knott at emerson.edu 12/18/05 12:10 PM >>>
David Graham would have been a better bapper
than Muldoon.  

*
I don't edit The X Anthology of Irish Poetry or
The X Anthology of British Poetry or The X Anthology
of American Poetry. . . I don't create these
categories, editors publishers et al do it . . .

theoretically all poetry written in English
should be considered, but in practice
the Po-Biz powers make these divisions. . .
 
am I the only one who thinks it's unfair that
Muldoon can be simultaneously presented
in these separate venues?  
That he is, depending on the caprice of
various editors or publishers, anything they
want him to be, Irish, British, American,
or what next?

Uh, his poetry transcends national boundaries?
sorry, I don't agree.  To me it doesn't even
transcend itself.  

(and what about The X Anthology of Australian
Poetry, why isn't Muldoon in that?  If he's
in the Irish/British/American anthols, 
why not the Australian and the Canadian
and every other anthol that includes verse
in English?)

















From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Dec 18 13:34:33 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:34:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] A selection of Gilbert from Refusing Heaven
Message-ID: <7f.6c3e6194.30d705b9@aol.com>

Jack Gilbert, Refusing Heaven, Knopf , 2005
 
Exceeding The Spirit
 
Beyond what the fires have left of the cathedral
you can see old men standing here and there
in administration buildings looking out 
of the fine casements with the glass gone.
Idle and bewildered. A few people who are
in the weed-choked streets below carry things
without purpose, holding fading memories inside
of what the good used to be. Immense ships
rise in the distance, beached and dying.
Starving men crouch in the dirt of the plaza with
a scrap of cloth before them, trying to sell nothing:
one with dead fuses and a burnt-out lightbulb,
another with just a heavy bolt and screw 
rusted together. One has two Byzantine coins
and a lump of oxidation which has a silver piece
inside stamped with the face of Hermes, but he 
doesn?t know it. A strange place to look for
what matters, what is worthy. To arrive now
at the wilderness alone and striving harder
for discontent, to need again. Not for salvation.
To go on because there might be something like him.
To visit what is importantly unknown of what is.
 
 
Metier
 
The Greek fishermen do not
play on the beach and I don?t
write funny poems.
 
 
By Small And Small: Midnight To Four A.M.
 
For eleven years I have regretted it,
regretted that I did not do what 
I wanted to do as I sat there those
four hours watching her die. I wanted
to crawl in among the machinery
and hold her in my arms, knowing
the elementary, leftover bit of her
mind would dimly recognize it was me
carrying her to where she was going.
 
 
Getting Away With It
 
We have already lived in the real paradise.
Horses in the empty summer street.
Me eating the hot wurst I couldn?t afford,
in frozen Munich, tears dropping. We can 
remember. A child in the outfield waiting
for the last fly ball of the year. So dark
already it was black against heaven.
The voices trailing away to dinner,
calling faintly in the immense distance.
Standing with my hands open, watching it
curve over and start down, turning white
at the last second. Hands down. Flourishing.
 
 
Beyond Pleasure
 
Gradually we realize what is felt is not so important
(however lonely and cruel) as what the feeling contains.
Not what happens to us in childhood, but what was
inside what happened. Ken Kesey sitting in the woods,
beyond his fence of whitewashed motorcycles, said when
he was writing on acid he was not writing about it.
He used what he wrote as blazes to find the way back
to what he knew then. Poetry registers
feelings, delights and passion, but the best searches
out what is beyond pleasure, is outside process.
Not the passion so much as what the fervor can be
an ingress to. Poetry fishes us to find a world
part by part, as the photograph interrupts the flux
to give us time to see each thing separate and enough.
The poem chooses part of our endless flowing forward
to know its merit and attention. 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 18 13:38:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:38:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
References: <s3a560af.064@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <00e801c60402$309e1530$afd83052@ANNY>

Dear Mairead,

this got me wrong:
http://www.eurunion.org/states/home.htm

since Turkey also wants to join, it gets more and more confusing on borders 
and such. By taxes I meant the money you have to pay every time you have to 
renew one, without mentioning the bustle to fill in forms, go to the office, 
get a pic done, this and that...

paper and paper.

Anyhow, if I might say, Muldoon _is_ Irish, should he or others like it or 
not, even I can notice it.
Take care over there, almost time for my favorite Prairie Home Companion 
after listening to some classical music on Classical 102.1 KDFC,

From: "Mairead Byrne" <mbyrne at risd.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:13 PM


> Dear Anny,
>
> I agree with you about the blur between British, Irish, and American. 
> Three passports don't mean three sets of taxes though, as far as I know. 
> Also, Britain is not in the EU--I thought that was famous in Europe. 
> Ireland is, but the EU doesn't grant citizenship.
>
> Bap is a very Muldoonish word.  It means bun.
>
> The handbag which houses passports in the Muldoon household is ginormous. 
> Not only are the Irish, British, and American passports stashed there but 
> also the Canadian and Australian, and they're really huge.
>
> Mairead
>
> 




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Dec 18 13:41:19 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:41:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] muldoon / eclecticism
Message-ID: <ce.764dec87.30d7074f@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/18/2005 1:15:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hruggier at localnet.com writes:
My Buddhist Christmas haiku

When Santa asks
what you want - say you
have no wants
good one, helen.
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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Sun Dec 18 15:27:08 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:27:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] next bapper
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2F@mail.emerson.edu>

Billy Collins is bapping next year's
BAP. . .

any predictions?






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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec 18 15:47:37 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:47:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: next bapper
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2F@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BFCB2709.169FD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 12/18/05 2:27 PM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:


Billy Collins is bapping next year's
BAP. . . 

any predictions? 
=====================

Collins's editorial taste is pretty fully on display already on his 180
website and his two 180 anthologies, *Poetry 180* and *180 More*.  I'd say
look for a lot of the same names to recur.

Possibly even Bill Knott, R. S. Gwynn, and David Graham!  --all included in
*180 More*.  I suppose I'd have to publish something this year, though, so
probably not. . . .

My predictions?    I'd bet a lot of money that we'll see Thomas Lux.  Other
easy predictions:  Mark Halliday, Sharon Olds, Ted Kooser, Katia Kapovich,
Ron Koertge, Kay Ryan.








====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 15:57:26 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:57:26 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] the great Irish-British-American poet
In-Reply-To: <263.2ace2f2.30d70013@aol.com>
References: <263.2ace2f2.30d70013@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512181257u6e2aaa57ie67d535d937b6068@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> Muldoon may not even be the first non-native 'Murican
>  to edit BAP...I believe Charles Simic edited it a few
> years back.

Uh-oh, Po-Biz Inc. better issue an immediate recall...

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 16:04:50 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:04:50 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] A selection of Gilbert from Refusing Heaven
In-Reply-To: <7f.6c3e6194.30d705b9@aol.com>
References: <7f.6c3e6194.30d705b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512181304g7826905cu683bc85b5263bfe5@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jack Gilbert, Refusing Heaven, Knopf , 2005

How do you like Gilbert's recent work vs. his early work? I am partial
to Views of Jeopardy and Monolithos, though this latest is pretty
impressive too. Still, those early poems knocked me out when I came
across them...

A couple of my favorites:

***
"Island and Figs"

The sky
on and on,
stone.
The Mediterranean
down the cliff,
stone.
These fields,
rock.
Dead weeds
everywhere.
And the weight
of sun.
In the weeds
an old woman
lifting off
snails.
Near
two trees
of ripe figs.
The heart
never fits
the journey.
Always
one ends
first.


***
"It May Be No One Should Be Opened"

You know I am serious about the whales.
Their moving vast through that darkness,
silent.
It is intolerable.
Or Crivelli, with his fruit.
The Japanese.
Or the white flesh of casaba melons
always in darkness.
That darkness unopened from the beginning.
The small emptiness at the middle
in darkness.
As virgins.
The landscape unlighted.
Lighted by me.
Lighted as my hands
in the darkroom
pinching film on the spindle
in absolute dark.
The work difficult
and my hands soon large and brilliant.
Virgins.
Whales.
Darkness and Lauds.
But it may be that no one should be opened.
The deer come back to the feeding station
at the suddenly open season.
The girls find second loves.
Semele was blasted
looking on the whale
in even his lesser panoply.
It was the excellent Socrates ruined Athens.
Now you have fallen crazy
and I have run away.
It's not the dreams.
It's this love of you
that grows in me
malignant.


c



From Kazmandu at aol.com  Sun Dec 18 16:06:03 2005
From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:06:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] convergent tastes
Message-ID: <23d.3ef1533.30d7293b@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/18/2005 9:21:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:

On 12/17/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Alas, I don't have broad taste in music.

Too bad... I'd be very curious how you feel about the avant garde
musicians (thinking of Jazz here, with which I am more familiar) and
their projects and whether those feelings are at odds with your
feelings about (what I see as) their equivalents in the post avant
poetry world. Such parallels are endlessly fascinating to think about,
though my own tastes are full of contradictions in that regard as
well.

And then there is the third part of the triad-- visual arts. For some
reason I find it strange that people can have such divergent tastes
(in terms of how "progressive" they are) between the three major art
forms...

c
I believe we would have more convergent tastes if we had equal understandings 
of all three. However that is near-impossible and extremely difficult to 
measure accurately.  Although, I think if we are all honest with ourselves we can 
at least proportionally rank those understandings. I doubt very many of us 
would have equality among all three.

cheers,

Kaz Maslanka

http://www.mathematicalpoetry.blogspot.com
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec 18 16:10:49 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:10:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] selection of Gilbert from Refusing Heaven
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0512181304g7826905cu683bc85b5263bfe5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFCB2C79.16A05%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Here's another from *Refusing Heaven* that appeared in *The New Yorker* last
year.

A Brief For The Defense


Sorrow everywhere. Slaughter everywhere. If babies
are not starving someplace, they are starving
somewhere else. With flies in their nostrils.
But we enjoy our lives because that?s what God wants.
Otherwise the mornings before summer dawn would not
be made so fine. The Bengal tiger would not
be fashioned so miraculously well. The poor women
at the fountain are laughing together between
the suffering they have known and the awfulness
in their future, smiling and laughing while somebody
in the village is very sick. There is laughter
every day in the terrible streets of Calcutta,
and the women laugh in the cages of Bombay.
If we deny our happiness, resist our satisfaction,
we lessen the importance of their deprivation.
We must risk delight. We can do without pleasure,
but not delight. Not enjoyment. We must have
the stubbornness to accept our gladness in the ruthless
furnace of this world. To make injustice the only
measure of our attention is to praise the Devil.
If the locomotive of the Lord runs us down,
we should give thanks that the end had magnitude.
We must admit that there will be music despite everything.
We stand at the prow again of a small ship
anchored late at night in the tiny port
looking over to the sleeping island: the waterfront
is three shuttered cafes and one naked light burning.
To hear the faint sounds of oars in the silence as a rowboat
comes slowly out and then goes back is truly worth
all the years of sorrow that are to come.

Jack Gilbert
Refusing Heaven



on 12/18/05 3:04 PM, Chris Lott at chris.lott at gmail.com wrote:

> On 12/18/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Jack Gilbert, Refusing Heaven, Knopf , 2005
> 
> How do you like Gilbert's recent work vs. his early work? I am partial
> to Views of Jeopardy and Monolithos, though this latest is pretty
> impressive too. Still, those early poems knocked me out when I came
> across them...
> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Dec 18 16:18:19 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:18:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A selection of Gilbert from Refusing Heaven
References: <7f.6c3e6194.30d705b9@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0512181304g7826905cu683bc85b5263bfe5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014201c60418$91d32d20$afd83052@ANNY>

I like the early and the late, or better yours and Finnegan's choice of 
poems,

From: "Chris Lott" <chris.lott at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 10:04 PM


> On 12/18/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jack Gilbert, Refusing Heaven, Knopf , 2005
>
> How do you like Gilbert's recent work vs. his early work? I am partial
> to Views of Jeopardy and Monolithos, though this latest is pretty
> impressive too. Still, those early poems knocked me out when I came
> across them...
>
> A couple of my favorites:
>
> ***
> "Island and Figs"
>
> The sky
> on and on,
> stone.
> The Mediterranean
> down the cliff,
> stone.
> These fields,
> rock.
> Dead weeds
> everywhere.
> And the weight
> of sun.
> In the weeds
> an old woman
> lifting off
> snails.
> Near
> two trees
> of ripe figs.
> The heart
> never fits
> the journey.
> Always
> one ends
> first.
>
>
> ***
> "It May Be No One Should Be Opened"
>
> You know I am serious about the whales.
> Their moving vast through that darkness,
> silent.
> It is intolerable.
> Or Crivelli, with his fruit.
> The Japanese.
> Or the white flesh of casaba melons
> always in darkness.
> That darkness unopened from the beginning.
> The small emptiness at the middle
> in darkness.
> As virgins.
> The landscape unlighted.
> Lighted by me.
> Lighted as my hands
> in the darkroom
> pinching film on the spindle
> in absolute dark.
> The work difficult
> and my hands soon large and brilliant.
> Virgins.
> Whales.
> Darkness and Lauds.
> But it may be that no one should be opened.
> The deer come back to the feeding station
> at the suddenly open season.
> The girls find second loves.
> Semele was blasted
> looking on the whale
> in even his lesser panoply.
> It was the excellent Socrates ruined Athens.
> Now you have fallen crazy
> and I have run away.
> It's not the dreams.
> It's this love of you
> that grows in me
> malignant.
>
>
> c




From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 16:52:51 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:52:51 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] convergent tastes
In-Reply-To: <23d.3ef1533.30d7293b@aol.com>
References: <23d.3ef1533.30d7293b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512181352w45a88424je18c9b881f02ad72@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, Kazmandu at aol.com <Kazmandu at aol.com> wrote:
> I believe we would have more convergent tastes if we had equal
> understandings of all three.

Maybe, but...

> However that is near-impossible and extremely
> difficult to measure accurately.  Although, I think if we are all honest
> with ourselves we can at least proportionally rank those understandings. I
> doubt very many of us would have equality among all three.

No, but there are more than a small number of people who are very
knowledgeable in two areas and "divergent" (meaning not following the
seemingly obvious parallels) taste (in my experience) appears to be
more common than not even there...

Probably no way to measure, but I'm always curious. And of course the
relationship between the arts is often something other than direct.
For instance, I suspect the most direct connection between Clark
Coolidge's poetry and his jazz drumming is in the minds of critics,
who just can't seem to resist the parallel, as fanciful as their
explanations might be...

c



From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Dec 18 03:57:12 2005
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:57:12 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2. Re: best american poetry 2005 (Bob Grumman)
In-Reply-To: <200512181657.jBIGvqJt012759@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200512181657.jBIGvqJt012759@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bfcabf1e3010@[204.215.201.87]>

Bob,

Try _Sketches of Spain_ by Miles Davis.

Where, in your view, is Glass's music "like" Ashbery's poetry?

Glass composes a thrombic minimalist a-melodical measure and shares 
that late 20th Century signature with his colleague and chief 
competitor, John Adams.  Ashbery is anything but minimalist, and 
never thrombical. Of ready to hand poets, Creeley would have 
something in common with the repetitive Glass sound.  But there are 
others much closer.  Go to the heyday of the St. Marks poets during 
the Berrigan   The Elder era for performances of such 
hopping-up-and-down poetry (that's Bly's take) including Dick Gallup, 
Berrigan, and Lewis Warsh.  Of all poets from that hipster American 
time period, it is Michael McClure who composed poetry that seems 
programmed and patterned with the same nonpersonal, a-personal, 
impersonal,aesthetical intent as the music composed by Adams and 
Glass. (_Mammal Poems_)  With the L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E era, go to 
Silliman, Davies, Watten and his nemesis, Andrews.  Susan Howe in 
"Speaking at the Boundaries" composes in this vein, as well. Try 
_Sketches of Spain_ by Miles Davis.

Listen to _Live At The Ear_, which I conceived and produced, edited 
by Charles Bernstein, if you want to fit some of these names with 
their voices. What interests me is that such work was made in a 
present presence moment that transcends the now 30 years (!) since it 
was first conceived.  Finally, pick up your copies of _Silence_ by 
John Cage. It becomes obvious what is happening with and to all of 
these people, even Ashbery, a little while, I admit, in "Pantoum" 
from _Some Trees_, his first book and, or couse, in the great, _The 
Tennis Court Oash_.  All of this coincides, we should remember, with 
the entrance of ZEN into the American ethos at that pivotal point of 
cultural history along with the Geodesic/Tensegrity/Synergies of 
Buckminster Fuller and the emerging publicity of the model of the 
RNA/DNA Double Helix of Watson and Crick.

And even more importantly (from my exclusive standpoint, admittedly) 
Ashbery is in no area or particular an "ExoPolitical" poet, as are 
Glass (_One Hundred  on the Rooftop_), WSB, (open a book) and I 
(_Exopolitical Probe Poetry_), and others, some with whom I am 
polarized when it comes to the American Constitution and its 
administration.  But this is another discussion.

Merry Christmas and Hearty Yuletide on the 21st at 1:35 PM EST to all!

Richard Dillon




-- 


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 16:16:18 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:16:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
References: <9b1b9dab0512180920w5bd750fft179aab613f7937c4@mail.gmail.com><BFCAFA90.169E0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512180948q5e015777if062e824019a8673@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c60422$5f56c8c0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 12/18/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>> I guess I admire this ability to appreciate writing that's not like one's
>> own, though it strikes me as a rather common phenomenon, actually.
>
> Strange that it doesn't seem to be recognized as such here? Let's look
> back at the original question that started all this:
>
> "Perhaps I'm not giving the man credit
> enough for breadth of taste, but does he really value the
> 4th Generation New York School of Jason Schneiderman's
> poem "Moscow," or Lyn Hejinian's "The Fatalist", for that
> matter, over the kind of poetry he writes?"
>
> I mean, it seems pretty clear to me what is being asked.
>
> Then we have Bob's immediate answer, which reads as a pretty clear "no" to 
> me":
>
> "the language poets have been acadominant for
> probably ten years and are now seeping into the mainstream, so the
> mediocrities editing anthologies like the BAP series have to represent 
> them."

Oaky, Chris, I'll give you that I was accusing Muldoon of some possible 
dishonesty.  I could quibble and say that politics forced him to represent 
language poetry, so he found some he liked.  But I think he probably had a 
few poems in his selection for political or social or other non-aesthetic 
reason.  I didn't rememjber implying that because I consider it a 
triviality.  I've beween publisher of around 150 books and probably ten 
percent of them were somewhat dishonest selections.  One of bad work by a 
poet I admire, one of so-so work by someone I felt sorry for, one by someone 
whose work I didn't much like but knew that some of my friends very much 
did, etc.  Then there's the problem of one poet who had published me.  I 
thought I liked his work and that's why I published it, but maybe I really 
just thought I owed him, or only liked his work because I associated it with 
his kindness in having published me.

So my definition of honest editor is one who makes MOST of his selections 
because he truly believes in what he's selected.  the whole discussion is 
actually pretty complex--and therefore easy for anyone taking it 
semi-seriously but not as High Forum to be inconsistent at a trivial level.

> So, the argument would seem to be that not only is breadth of taste
> unlikely, but the inclusion of the poems has to do with politics.
>
> That has been the crux of the debate, I think. It isn't about how
> broad Muldoon's taste might or might not be, but whether such breadth
> is *possible* or *real*. I actually agree with Bob that this
> selection, while broad for BAP, doesn't come close to representing
> the "real" range. But if Bob suspects even this selection of
> intellectual dishonesty, then it seems impossible that what he calls
> breadth could ever exist. Well, except perhaps with himself or select
> PA poets... there's always an implication that while their "side" can
> see what's good across the spectrum, the other side can't.

Well, I'm concerned with the spectrum more than with what's good.  I think 
one can objectively determine how much of the poetry spectrum is being 
represented.  I wouldn't expect the BAPs to cover it because they lack the 
pages.  I would just like one such anthology to carry the "marginal 
stuff"--and none of them to claim broadness of vision for including one of 
two poems slightly left or right of Wilshberia.


> A lot of the BAP poems can be found online. Here's a section from the
> Hejinian poem in question (it is 80+ pages long in its entirety, so)
>
> http://www.bigbridge.org/issue8/poetlhejinian.htm
>
> c

I think Lehman should probably be praised for letting Hejinian edit one 
edition of BAP--twenty years after language poetry deserved representation 
in it.  On the other hand, that she's as politically-correct a choice as you 
could have and a member of the American Academy of Poets makes me suspicious 
of him.  He seems to me a careerist (and, David, I HAVE read his criticism, 
which may only coincidentally be on correct poets).

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 16:23:11 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:23:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] i agree with david graham
References: <295.2540605.30d70317@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c60422$5fe83350$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

circulated anthologies should occasionally have my kind of poetry in them, and the Logans of our small world should deign to notice it once in a while, etc
  Bob, this seems to be your recurrent & contradictory grumble: 
  As you revel in your innovative and outsider status, and as you openly admit unfamiliarity with, if not outright disregard for, much of he mainstream and its primary counterstreams, 

  Couldn't be more wrong, as I continually say, and demonstrate, James.  Because I don't read one of the many mainstream poets mentioned here, or or slight a few mainstream poets, would only mean I'm unfamiliar with and disregard mainstream poetry if I didn't also chime in every once in a while with praise for some mainstream poem or poet, and speak--knowledgeably, I believe--about some of them.  ANd I read every New Criterion column of Logan's so, gosh, I must know a LOT about his section of the poetry continuum. 

  But how about this topic: why does the mainstream refuse to acknowledge the value of conventional haiku?  I doubt that one has ever made it into a BAP (if one did, I'd bet it was by someone with a name, like Merwin, whos has done a bunch of them).  Every year I see some haiku that I think as good as most of the favorites that people post here.  (Yeah, I'll try to post some--as I have at my blog.)  This is outside the innovative versus traditional problem.

  you vehemently decry those institutions that leave unmapped those byways and undergrounds of ars poetica you favor. Can't have it both ways, Bod.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 19:32:00 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:32:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2. Re: best american poetry 2005 (Bob Grumman)
References: <200512181657.jBIGvqJt012759@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100300bfcabf1e3010@[204.215.201.87]>
Message-ID: <011701c60433$a0b6b710$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Quick reply before reading much of your post, Richard (which I expect to 
learn from): I meant only that Glass and Ashbery are, to the general public, 
the leaders of "experimentality" in their respective fields--and famous and 
popular, for serious artists.

--Bob



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" <elemenope at icubed.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:57 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2. Re: best american poetry 2005 (Bob Grumman)


> Bob,
>
> Try _Sketches of Spain_ by Miles Davis.
>
> Where, in your view, is Glass's music "like" Ashbery's poetry?
>
> Glass composes a thrombic minimalist a-melodical measure and shares that 
> late 20th Century signature with his colleague and chief competitor, John 
> Adams.  Ashbery is anything but minimalist, and never thrombical. Of ready 
> to hand poets, Creeley would have something in common with the repetitive 
> Glass sound.  But there are others much closer.  Go to the heyday of the 
> St. Marks poets during the Berrigan   The Elder era for performances of 
> such hopping-up-and-down poetry (that's Bly's take) including Dick Gallup, 
> Berrigan, and Lewis Warsh.  Of all poets from that hipster American time 
> period, it is Michael McClure who composed poetry that seems programmed 
> and patterned with the same nonpersonal, a-personal, 
> impersonal,aesthetical intent as the music composed by Adams and Glass. 
> (_Mammal Poems_)  With the L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E era, go to Silliman, Davies, 
> Watten and his nemesis, Andrews.  Susan Howe in "Speaking at the 
> Boundaries" composes in this vein, as well. Try _Sketches of Spain_ by 
> Miles Davis.
>
> Listen to _Live At The Ear_, which I conceived and produced, edited by 
> Charles Bernstein, if you want to fit some of these names with their 
> voices. What interests me is that such work was made in a present presence 
> moment that transcends the now 30 years (!) since it was first conceived. 
> Finally, pick up your copies of _Silence_ by John Cage. It becomes obvious 
> what is happening with and to all of these people, even Ashbery, a little 
> while, I admit, in "Pantoum" from _Some Trees_, his first book and, or 
> couse, in the great, _The Tennis Court Oash_.  All of this coincides, we 
> should remember, with the entrance of ZEN into the American ethos at that 
> pivotal point of cultural history along with the 
> Geodesic/Tensegrity/Synergies of Buckminster Fuller and the emerging 
> publicity of the model of the RNA/DNA Double Helix of Watson and Crick.
>
> And even more importantly (from my exclusive standpoint, admittedly) 
> Ashbery is in no area or particular an "ExoPolitical" poet, as are Glass 
> (_One Hundred  on the Rooftop_), WSB, (open a book) and I (_Exopolitical 
> Probe Poetry_), and others, some with whom I am polarized when it comes to 
> the American Constitution and its administration.  But this is another 
> discussion.
>
> Merry Christmas and Hearty Yuletide on the 21st at 1:35 PM EST to all!
>
> Richard Dillon
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 19:32:29 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:32:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] next bapper
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2F@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <012601c60433$b1a79170$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



Billy Collins is bapping next year's
BAP. . .

any predictions?





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Dec 18 19:36:28 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:36:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] next bapper
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2F@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <013601c60434$404bae70$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



Billy Collins is bapping next year's
BAP. . .

any predictions?

Yeah: he won't have any unconventional poems in it.  There.  Thanks for bringing this up, William.  I have given my view on his collection (even though I haven't read it!), so won't have to when it is published.  I vow not to.  But, please, don't anyone praise him for including innovative poems if he chooses something by a language poet, or some of kind of "difficult" poet, as--who knows--he may, to show he isn't completely narrow.

--Bob G.



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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 19:52:00 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:52:00 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] next bapper
In-Reply-To: <013601c60434$404bae70$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2F@mail.emerson.edu>
	<013601c60434$404bae70$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512181652x432bebf2ib823890fbf4ac691@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> But, please, don't anyone praise him for including innovative poems
> if he chooses something by a language poet, or some of kind of "difficult"
> poet, as--who knows--he may, to show he isn't completely narrow.

If it's a good poem, I'll praise it. I don't think Collins feels like
he has anything he needs to prove, so it's unlikely such a choice
would be anything but genuine.

c



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 20:04:20 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:04:20 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] more muldoon bap flap
In-Reply-To: <00bd01c60422$5f56c8c0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <9b1b9dab0512180920w5bd750fft179aab613f7937c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFCAFA90.169E0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<9b1b9dab0512180948q5e015777if062e824019a8673@mail.gmail.com>
	<00bd01c60422$5f56c8c0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512181704v3b470634k4095520931e75fe8@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/18/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Oaky, Chris, I'll give you that I was accusing Muldoon of some possible
> dishonesty.  I could quibble and say that politics forced him to represent
> language poetry, so he found some he liked.  But I think he probably had a
> few poems in his selection for political or social or other non-aesthetic
> reason. I didn't rememjber implying that because I consider it a
> triviality.

I don't think it *is* a triviality, but there's no real evidence
either way-- you're inclined to see through a glass darkly, so be
it... I can just agree to disagree.

c



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Dec 18 20:35:35 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:35:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] next bapper
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2F@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C2F@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <9261EFA1-1E9A-4432-9AEB-43E2481C4637@mac.com>


On Dec 18, 2005, at 3:27 PM, William Knott wrote:

> Billy Collins is bapping next year's
> BAP. . .
>
> any predictions?
>
>

Reb Livingston's "That's Not Butter," which originaly appeared in a  
MiPoesias guest-edited by Gabriel Gudding. But it's not really a  
prediction : http://cacklingjackal.blogspot.com/2005/12/my-news.html   
There's a link to the poem there.


From cgi77 at aol.com  Sun Dec 18 22:00:47 2005
From: cgi77 at aol.com (cgi77 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:00:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the great Irish-British-American poet
In-Reply-To: <s3a56431.069@risd.edu>
References: <s3a56431.069@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <8C7D25F8BD34272-16C8-31F59@mblk-d33.sysops.aol.com>

Makes one think of home,
 or the lack of it,
 of safe conduct
 and free passage.



 -Peter Ciccariello
 BLOG - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/


 -----Original Message-----
 From: Mairead Byrne <mbyrne at risd.edu>
 << My god,
 the promiscuity of it.
 Mairead>>



From antrobin at clipper.net  Mon Dec 19 03:05:50 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:05:50 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: i agree with philip metres
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C29@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <007901c60473$0fef50d0$6d00a8c0@Emily>

>What's the point of such eclecticism?  Why be so 
>inclusionary?  Everybody's trying to straddle 
>the fence.  Why can't we take a position and stick
>to it?  The new issue of Fulcrum has Billy 
>Collins side by side with Charles Bernstein. . . why?
>It seems absurd to me.  


WHY is this absurd?  Because one has narrow tastes, must everyone?

WHY is liking and appreciating poetries of various aesthetics equated to
failing to "stand for something"?

Bill Knott, explain yourself.







From rsillima at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 19 07:17:41 2005
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 04:17:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog: the Chicago Renaissance
Message-ID: <20051219121741.71732.qmail@web31802.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT POSTS

Paul Hoover
on the Chicago Renaissance
and the role of the local

Naomi Watts -
the real story
of the new King Kong

In praise of Audrey Rein Elwood

The Village Voice and its list
of the 25 best books of 2005 ?
poets everywhere, but poetry
maybe not there at all

The New York Times 
annual list of notable books
continues to be dominated 
by the same few publishers

3-Iron by Ki-duk Kim,
a film in which the protagonists
almost never speak

Rising, Falling, Hovering
by C.D. Wright ?
A poem as complex as a major motion picture

My Dolores Park

Notes on Pinter, Norman Fischer, arts auctions,
the blogroll and Katrina relief

Naming and time ?
the Plausible Worlds of Aaron Belz

Don Byrd on Olson Now

Recent poetry by Ray DiPalma

Wadada Leo Smith and the Golden Quartet ?
greatness out of synch

Surprise ?
the role of expectation in shaping aesthetics

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 19 08:15:33 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:15:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 
	Poems by others:  William Carlos Williams, "The Clouds"
Message-ID: <3BBFDCEB-37B9-4979-B525-EF65D9FD7006@earthlink.net>


The Clouds

         I

Filling the mind
upon the rim of the overarching sky, the horses of
the dawn charge from south to north, gigantic beasts
rearing flame-edged above the pit,
a rank confusion of the imagination still uncured,
a rule, piebald under the streetlamps, reluctant
to be torn from its hold.

                                       Their flanks still
caught among low, blocking forms their fore-parts
rise lucid beyond this smell of a swamp, a mud
livid with decay and life! turtles
that burrowing among the white roots lift their green
red-striped faces startled before the dawn.

A black flag, writhing and whipping at the staff-head
mounts the sepulcher of the empty bank, fights
to be free . . .

                South to north! the direction
unmistakable, they move, distinct beyond the unclear
edge of the world, clouds! like statues
before which we are drawn--in darkness, thinking of
our dead, unable, knowing no place
where else rightly to lodge them.

                                                     Tragic outlines
and the bodies of horses, mindfilling--but
visible! against the invisible; actual against
the imagined and the concocted; unspoiled by hands
and unshaped also by them but caressed by sight only,
moving among them, not that that propels
the eyes from under, while it blinds:

--upon whose backs the dead ride, high!
undirtied by the putridity we fasten upon them--
South to north, for this moment distinct and undeformed,
into the no-knowledge of their nameless destiny.


         II

Where are the good minds of past days, the unshorn?
Villon, to be sure, with his
saw-toothed will and testament? Erasmus
who praised folly and

Shakespeare who wrote so that
no school man or churchman could sanction him without
revealing his own imbecility? Aristotle,
shrewd and alone, a onetime herb peddler?

They all, like Aristophanes, knew the clouds and
said next to nothing of the soul's flight
but kept their heads and died--
like Socrates, Plato's better self, unmoved.

Where? They live today in their old state because
of the pace they kept that keeps
them now fresh in our thoughts, their
relics, ourselves: Toulouse-Lautrec, the

deformed who lived in a brothel and painted
the beauty of whores. These were
the truth-tellers of whom we are the sole heirs
beneath the clouds that bring

shadow and darkness full of thought deepened
by rain against the clatter
of an empty sky. But anything to escape humanity!
Now it's spiritualism--again,

as if the certainty of a future life
were any solution to our dilemma: how to get
published not what we write but what we would write were
it not for the laws against libelous truth.

The poor brain unwilling to own the obtrusive body
would crawl from it like a crab and
because it succeeds, at times, in doffing that,
by its wiles of drugs or other "ecstasies," thinks

at last that it is quite free--exulted, scurrying to
some slightly larger shell some snail
has lost (where it will live). And so, thinking,
pretends a mystery! an unbodied

thing that would still be a brain--but no body,
something that does not eat but flies by the propulsions
of pure--what? into the sun itself, illimitedly
and exists so forever, blest, washed, purged

and at ease in non-representational bursts
of shapeless flame, sentient (naturally!)--and keeps
touch with the earth (by former works) at least.
The intellect leads, leads still! Beyond the clouds.

         III

(Scherzo)

I came upon a priest once at St. Andrew's
in Amalfi in crimson and gold brocade riding
the clouds of his belief.

It happened that we tourists had intervened
at some mid-moment of the ritual--
tipped the sacristan or whatever it was.

No one else was there--porphyry and alabaster,
the light flooding in scented
with sandalwood--but this holy man

jiggling upon his buttocks to the litany
chanted, in response, by two kneeling altar boys!
I was amazed and stared in such manner

that he, caught half off the earth
in his ecstasy--though without losing a beat--
turned and grinned at me from his cloud.

         IV.

With each, dies a piece of the old life, which he carries,
a precious burden, beyond! Thus each
is valued by what he carries and that is his soul--
diminishing the bins by that much
unless replenished.

                               It is that which is the brotherhood:
the old life, treasured. But if they live?
What then?

                   The clouds remain
--the disordered heavens, ragged, ripped by winds
or dormant, a calligraphy of scaly dragons and bright moths,
of straining thought, bulbous or smooth,
ornate, the flesh itself (in which
the poet foretells his own death); convoluted, lunging upon
a pismire, a conflagration, a . . . . . . .

--William Carlos Williams

fr. The Clouds (1948)
in The Collected Poems of William Carlos Williams: Vol. II --
1939-1962
[New York: New Directions, 1986]



Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com



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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 19 09:20:23 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:20:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Indifferent Trains"
Message-ID: <A08E7B9C-FA5D-47F4-A9C9-E714DE698AA5@earthlink.net>


Indifferent Trains

I was reading Chekhov?s ?Three Sisters? again
for the last time when I lost the timetable my travel
agent had slipped into the envelope holding my ticket.
Someone said I should ask the conductor to give
me a new one. I said, ?Hell, who really cares where
we?re going or when we?ll get there?? The train itself
certainly didn?t care who I was or where I was going.
It just kept up its little mantra: Ticket-taker, ticket-taker,
ticket-taker, ticket-taker, ticket-taker . . . well, you get
my meaning, don?tcha, buddy? If pressed to say so,
I?d say that the passengers in this car are funny,
sensual, and poignant. The guy in front of me goes
so far as to amuse himself by, every ten or fifteen
minutes, plucking a single strand of hair from the back
of the head of the woman in front of him, the one who?s
been sleeping ever since we pulled out of the station
in Detroit. Still, a full bladder will often make my visit
to the lavatory at the rear of the car worthwhile and
rewarding. Wherever we?re going we must be running
along the terminator now?there?s sunshine to the right
and darkness, with looming thunderheads, off to the
left. Excitement is pitched at a level of intensity that seems
more like ecstasy than potty-mouthed travel. The miles
are repetitive, but never really mawkish. The conductor
is terrific in his well-pressed uniform, stopping to pull
out of his watch pocket a lidded, round watch just like the one
my grandfather left to my father and my father passed on
to me?superbly crafted. Tickety-tock, tickety-tock,
tickety-tock. The train, while never for a moment losing
its momentum, integrates us into landscape after landscape.
Around the time that dawn breaks on the prairie, some of my
fellow passengers wake up and begin to converse?you know,
mundane stuff with bits of confusion and banality mixed in.
A mother with two kids cuddled up on the seat next to her
says to one, ?Don?t be a chatterbox, chatterbox, chatterbox.?
Across the aisle, two gentlemen in publishing are having
a little talk about how most trade house editors get their MSS
from agents now, and how, with the ?whole anthrax thing?
folks are much less inclined to be reading unsolicited work.
I make a note of that, and wait to be called for breakfast.

--Halvard Johnson



================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com





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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Dec 19 12:31:00 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:31:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] failing to explain myself to Anthony Robinson
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C33@mail.emerson.edu>

>What's the point of such eclecticism?  Why be so 
>inclusionary?  Everybody's trying to straddle 
>the fence.  Why can't we take a position and stick
>to it?  The new issue of Fulcrum has Billy 
>Collins side by side with Charles Bernstein. . . why?
>It seems absurd to me.  

WHY is this absurd?  Because one has narrow tastes, must everyone?

WHY is liking and appreciating poetries of various aesthetics equated to
failing to "stand for something"?

Bill Knott, explain yourself.

**

Dear Anthony Robinson:

I can't explain myself to myself, but here's a thought
or two:

. . . You remember Silliman saying the SOQs were 
the poetic equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan?   

Or take the (necessary, I would argue) antipathy 
between Stevens and Frost . . . 

Or Herbert's "Elegy of Fortinbras" . . .

Or Neruda and Benn's latter swerve toward Antipoetry . . .

>From the Liberal perspective, in *Theory* there 
ought to be a Middleground, a Synthesis resulting 
from the clash of Thesis and Antithesis, a Third 
Way. . . but in practice?

It may be the duty of the critic to try to see both sides
of the fence, to understand both ends of the spectrum,
to appreciate the historical fluctuations and trends,
etcet, but is it also the duty of the poet?  

My failure to value equally all factions of contemporary
poetry may be personal, or generational, but
I can't pretend to be postmod when I'm not.  

In theory, it's possible or preferable to "like and 
appreciate poetries of various esthetics," but in practice,
and looking at the history of poetry confirms this,
I think, in practice the poet chooses one of those
various esthetics and usually but not always
sticks to it.  

Certainly Silliman sticks to it, wouldn't you say?  
Do you really want him to start "appreciating" Billy
Collins?  You do understand the reason why the only 
book he's ever given a negative notice to on his blog 
happens to be my selected short poems, don't
you?




















 
   




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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Dec 19 13:03:24 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:03:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] ps to my last post
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C34@mail.emerson.edu>

In theory, it's possible or preferable to "like and 
appreciate poetries of various esthetics," but in practice,
and looking at the history of poetry confirms this,
I think, in practice the poet chooses one of those
various esthetics and usually but not always
sticks to it.

>>>>Let me elaborate on that last phrase, by citing 
the examples of Benn and Neruda, both of whom
trended toward Antipoetry in their later work.
There may have been elements of the Antipoetic
in their earlier work (Benn's "Morgue" and
Neruda's "Residencia"), but you can see 
in the later poems a deliberate choice to write
away from certain aspects of the early work
(or in Benn's case, much of what might be 
called his middle period) and in particular 
its opacities and obscurities.

In practice the poet chooses an esthetic and 
sticks to it (if not for life, then for long phases
of his or her career). . . they don't try to write
all kinds of poems, they don't jump to a new
"various" esthetic with each new poem they
work on:

Tony Hoagland never wakes up in the morning
and says to himself, Boy that Michael Palmer really 
does some interesting things with that flat dry aphasic
lyric of his, I think I'll try something like
that.  And Michael Palmer never wakes up and
says to himself, Gee that Sharon Olds really
evokes some powerful empathy with her 
rangy four-stress lines and autobiographical
bathos, I think I'll give that esthetic a try.

It doesn't happen.

Hoagland wakes up and writes a Hoagland poem.
Palmer wakes up and writes a Palmer poem.
Olds wakes up and writes an Olds poem.

In THEORY, one may "appreciate various esthetics,"
but in PRACTICE, never.  

And when they seem to do it, case in point Muldoon, 
I'm like Philip Metres, I don't believe it.  









 



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From lattaj at umich.edu  Mon Dec 19 13:22:23 2005
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:22:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] ps to my last post
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C34@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C34@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0512191309300.18407@centipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Bill Knott,

One could argue the opposite by looking at generations. Think of the whole 
bunch of James Wright, W. S. Merwin, Donald Hall, Adrienne Rich (pointers 
to a group) who, following the Beat / New American Poetry upheaval, 
significantly changed styles, loosely aping the upstarts. And one could 
argue that a similar shift is occuring now, the period style of the moment 
taking on the trappings of the ever-marketeering Language boys. Which is 
exactly how it is possible for Ron Silliman to claim that they're "1352 
post-avants in Nashville" or however it goes. Truth is, it's a frightful 
mimic-idiocy we're in, careerist, and malign. Even if Tony Hoagland 
doesn't wake up ready to fog out a Michael Palmer poem, there appear to be 
plenty enough who do.

John Latta


On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, William Knott wrote:

> In theory, it's possible or preferable to "like and
> appreciate poetries of various esthetics," but in practice,
> and looking at the history of poetry confirms this,
> I think, in practice the poet chooses one of those
> various esthetics and usually but not always
> sticks to it.
>
>>>>> Let me elaborate on that last phrase, by citing
> the examples of Benn and Neruda, both of whom
> trended toward Antipoetry in their later work.
> There may have been elements of the Antipoetic
> in their earlier work (Benn's "Morgue" and
> Neruda's "Residencia"), but you can see
> in the later poems a deliberate choice to write
> away from certain aspects of the early work
> (or in Benn's case, much of what might be
> called his middle period) and in particular
> its opacities and obscurities.
>
> In practice the poet chooses an esthetic and
> sticks to it (if not for life, then for long phases
> of his or her career). . . they don't try to write
> all kinds of poems, they don't jump to a new
> "various" esthetic with each new poem they
> work on:
>
> Tony Hoagland never wakes up in the morning
> and says to himself, Boy that Michael Palmer really
> does some interesting things with that flat dry aphasic
> lyric of his, I think I'll try something like
> that.  And Michael Palmer never wakes up and
> says to himself, Gee that Sharon Olds really
> evokes some powerful empathy with her
> rangy four-stress lines and autobiographical
> bathos, I think I'll give that esthetic a try.
>
> It doesn't happen.
>
> Hoagland wakes up and writes a Hoagland poem.
> Palmer wakes up and writes a Palmer poem.
> Olds wakes up and writes an Olds poem.
>
> In THEORY, one may "appreciate various esthetics,"
> but in PRACTICE, never.
>
> And when they seem to do it, case in point Muldoon,
> I'm like Philip Metres, I don't believe it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 13:39:58 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:39:58 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] ps to my last post
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C34@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C34@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512191039j1bd73544h208dd18fd46bc0c@mail.gmail.com>

Bill Knott-- you are answering a question that wasn't asked. The
question here is about poems one honestly enjoys READING and admires
as a READER, not the kinds of poems one writes. I believe a lot of
what you said in this post to be true-- but how much does that have to
do with recognizing and loving poems as a reader/editor? Why should
that be as narrow as what one is capable (and willing to) write?
Personally, I think these are vastly different things.

Muldoon didn't write these poems, he claims to have read and really
liked them. I see no reason to disbelieve him, and it certainly has
nothing to do with the intentionality he will display the next time he
puts pen to paper (though of course being of diverse taste will
probably have positive effects on his writing-- again, a different
question entirely).

c



From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Dec 19 13:46:57 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:46:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] ku klux who?
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C35@mail.emerson.edu>

. . . thinking of who's ku and who's you and are
you on whose side, here's an excerpt from an 1999 
interview with writer/composer Erik Belgum, that 
appeared in Paris Transatlantic Magazine:

"I feel a lot of kinship with poets too, like Bill Knott, 
Ron Silliman, Clark Coolidge, John Taggart. A lot of 
these people you might not have heard of if you don't 
follow the small press/literary journal scene. But 
they're the best thing going in my opinion. The only 
real heirs to the experimental tradition."

. . . you can google the rest of the interview at:
www.paristransatlantic.com/ magazine/interviews/belgum.

*
Maybe it's Paris on Mars.  On Earth the Sill and
the Bill are never that congruent.

































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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Dec 19 14:38:39 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:38:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet vs editor: response to Chris
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C37@mail.emerson.edu>

Bill Knott-- you are answering a question that wasn't asked. The
question here is about poems one honestly enjoys READING and admires
as a READER, not the kinds of poems one writes. I believe a lot of
what you said in this post to be true-- but how much does that have to
do with recognizing and loving poems as a reader/editor? Why should
that be as narrow as what one is capable (and willing to) write?
Personally, I think these are vastly different things.

Muldoon didn't write these poems, he claims to have read and really
liked them. I see no reason to disbelieve him, and it certainly has
nothing to do with the intentionality he will display the next time he
puts pen to paper (though of course being of diverse taste will
probably have positive effects on his writing-- again, a different
question entirely).

c

*

"Honestly" is the key word here.  Aren't you arguing in favor
of hypocrisy?  As an editor I should accept what I reject
as a poet?  I should say one thing and do another?
I too chafed at Rich's BAP, the one Bloom abominated,
but at least she was courageous enough to not abandon
her longtime esthetic in favor of some specious openness,
an eclecticism which is in most cases adopted not out of 
conviction but with the motive to sell more books to more
"various" kinds of audiences.  Rich didn't wimp-out like 
Muldoon.  

I think poets shouldn't edit the BAPs for the next ten
years. . . it should be left to critics, editors and people 
like Garrison Keillor or Bill Moyers, or maybe moviestars 
could do it . . . playwrights, painters: let Tony Kushner or  
Susan Rothenberg do it.

















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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 14:55:11 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:55:11 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet vs editor: response to Chris
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C37@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C37@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512191155t73c59840i9ef2e42266337391@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/19/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:
> "Honestly" is the key word here.  Aren't you arguing in favor
> of hypocrisy?

No

> As an editor I should accept what I reject
> as a poet?

This doesn't follow.

If you are a pastry chef do you refuse to eat and enjoy anything but
pastries? If you are a jazz musician must you refuse to listen to
classical? If I'm an abstract expressionist painter can I not enjoy--
even love-- Rembrandt and Da Vinci? Of course not-- one can have
diverse tastes and admire greatness in many forms and styles only one
or a few of which are actually pursued in their own work.

No one writes, paints, plays, or otherwise makes in all the modes they
love. What you DO as an artist and what you ENJOY don't have to
intersect completely, only partially. In fact, they SHOULDN'T... if
they do, you live in a meager world indeed.

You're a lot more like Silliman in your artificial divisiveness than
you want to admit. You'd have us betraying pepper because we also eat
salt. You are Sillyman.

c



From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Dec 19 15:17:30 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:17:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Chris
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C38@mail.emerson.edu>

Chris, at least i headed my response with
your whole post, so a reader could see
all of what I was replying to. . .
you're quoting only part of mine, and refuting
that part. . .










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From antrobin at clipper.net  Mon Dec 19 15:38:44 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:38:44 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ps to my last post
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C34@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <00a301c604dc$3e0db600$6d00a8c0@Emily>

Bill Knott wrote:

>Tony Hoagland never wakes up in the morning
>and says to himself, Boy that Michael Palmer really 
>does some interesting things with that flat dry aphasic
>lyric of his, I think I'll try something like
>that.  And Michael Palmer never wakes up and
>says to himself, Gee that Sharon Olds really
>evokes some powerful empathy with her 
>rangy four-stress lines and autobiographical
>bathos, I think I'll give that esthetic a try.

>It doesn't happen.

>Hoagland wakes up and writes a Hoagland poem.
>Palmer wakes up and writes a Palmer poem.
>Olds wakes up and writes an Olds poem.

>In THEORY, one may "appreciate various esthetics,"
>but in PRACTICE, never.  

>And when they seem to do it, case in point Muldoon, 
>I'm like Philip Metres, I don't believe it.  

Well, it seems that you're conflating two senses of the word "practice"
here--the notion of practice as the flip side of theory, referring to
the "practice of appreciation" and the actual practice of poem writing.

This conflation may simply be on oversight; if it's not, though, then I
can only conclude that you believe that one can only like poetry that is
similar to that that one writes.  And you can't really believe that, can
you?  One can prefer writers of a certain stripe or ilk more than
others, sure, but one doesn't sign up at with Poet's Guild, check a box
(Post-Avant, SOQ, Confessional, Post-Avant, Light Verse, Grave
Formalism, etc) and then sign a form promising to neither write nor read
with pleasure any poetry that doesn't belong in the category designated
by the checked box.

To say that because Muldoon (or anyone else) WRITES a particular form of
verse, and therefore is incapable of enjoying other types of verse, is
frankly, in theory AND practice, stupid.

If this is simply a venting at Ron Silliman because he doesn't like your
poetry, who cares?  Silliman doesn't like a lot of stuff. Neither do I.
Neither do you.  The notion that we are engaged in some sort of
post-avant vs. SOQ battle, however, is laughable--the only people who
care are poetic pundits and polemicists and those who they directly
attack. (And a few megalomaniacal creative writing professors who really
believe that they have a duty to "save" young writers from pernicious
influences.)

Tony









 






From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 19 15:50:13 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:50:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Chris
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C38@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C38@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <026223AC-8C49-4265-984A-0C52ABC3EB7D@earthlink.net>


On Dec 19, 2005, at 3:17 PM, William Knott wrote:

> Chris, at least i headed my response with
> your whole post, so a reader could see
> all of what I was replying to. . .
> you're quoting only part of mine, and refuting
> that part. . .

By and large, the less we see of this discussion,
the better. Do more cutting.

Hal        "Music is continuous. Only listening
                is intermittent."
                               --Henry David Thoreau

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Mon Dec 19 15:53:16 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:53:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more to Chris
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C39@mail.emerson.edu>

On 12/19/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:
> "Honestly" is the key word here.  Aren't you arguing in favor
> of hypocrisy?

No

> As an editor I should accept what I reject
> as a poet?

This doesn't follow.

If you are a pastry chef do you refuse to eat and enjoy anything but
pastries? If you are a jazz musician must you refuse to listen to
classical? If I'm an abstract expressionist painter can I not enjoy--
even love-- Rembrandt and Da Vinci? Of course not-- one can have
diverse tastes and admire greatness in many forms and styles only one
or a few of which are actually pursued in their own work.

No one writes, paints, plays, or otherwise makes in all the modes they
love. What you DO as an artist and what you ENJOY don't have to
intersect completely, only partially. In fact, they SHOULDN'T... if
they do, you live in a meager world indeed.

You're a lot more like Silliman in your artificial divisiveness than
you want to admit. You'd have us betraying pepper because we also eat
salt. You are Sillyman.

c


*
Chris, if you read back in this thread of posts,
you'll see that I said I admire Silliman for maintaining
the purity of his esthetic. . .

All these SHOULDN'TS you're preaching; all these rules.
And I can't live up to any of them.  That's my 
failure.  Don't be so hard on me. 

As for artificial divisiveness, that's what you're demanding
I do as an editor, isn't it?  Divide myself in two, poet
this side, editor that. . . talk about artificial.

I may be silly, probably am.  But I'm not calling
you names.













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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:03:18 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:03:18 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] more to Chris
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C39@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C39@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512191303n3e6dfe3aka52f3ff5a91fb13b@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/19/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:
> Chris, if you read back in this thread of posts,
> you'll see that I said I admire Silliman for maintaining
> the purity of his esthetic. . .

Yeah, that was a sad moment. Not to mention the weird, almost racial
overtones of having to "maintain the purity" of one's aesthetic.
Doesn't one maintain one's aesthetic by reading and appreciating
honestly? And if that honesty allows one to love more than just the
style in which one chooses to write, then why is that bad? Note this
is different from one not loving the style one writes in-- that would
be dishonest-- I just see no reason not to be open to others.

> All these SHOULDN'TS you're preaching; all these rules.
> And I can't live up to any of them.  That's my
> failure.  Don't be so hard on me.

If the "shouldn't" involve NOT having your narrow rules, then how is
that hard to live up to or demanding? You're the one lambasting people
for loving more kinds of poetry than they write and imposing rules
that we can only like that which we write!

> As for artificial divisiveness, that's what you're demanding
> I do as an editor, isn't it?  Divide myself in two, poet
> this side, editor that. . . talk about artificial.

I see it as the opposite. You seem to be demanding that reading and
writing be the same activity-- I am saying that most of us just do
both of these as they come and they aren't rigidly determining one
another.

You're advocating a divisiveness no less poisonous than Ron's and
declaiming your rightness in doing so just the same.

> I may be silly, probably am.  But I'm not calling
> you names.

Sorry, my disappointment got the better of me. I apologize.

c

ps. I answer the parts of your posts I am responding to. You quote
mine in total but answer nearly nothing in them. As I said:

"If you are a pastry chef do you refuse to eat and enjoy anything but
pastries? If you are a jazz musician must you refuse to listen to
classical? If I'm an abstract expressionist painter can I not enjoy--
even love-- Rembrandt and Da Vinci? Of course not-- one can have
diverse tastes and admire greatness in many forms and styles only one
or a few of which are actually pursued in their own work."



From chris.lott at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:03:56 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:03:56 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Chris
In-Reply-To: <026223AC-8C49-4265-984A-0C52ABC3EB7D@earthlink.net>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C38@mail.emerson.edu>
	<026223AC-8C49-4265-984A-0C52ABC3EB7D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512191303m5adac42ft719892a55425aa46@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/19/05, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> By and large, the less we see of this discussion,
> the better. Do more cutting.

Hal, you missed the mark here by +2 lines. Try trimming a little more
before you post.

c



From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Dec 19 16:26:05 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:26:05 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet vs editor: response to Chris
Message-ID: <20051219212605.9462113CFF@smapp04.siteprotect.com>

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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:54:33 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:54:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ps to my last post
In-Reply-To: <00a301c604dc$3e0db600$6d00a8c0@Emily>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C34@mail.emerson.edu>
	<00a301c604dc$3e0db600$6d00a8c0@Emily>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512191354w78a6818axdb2b7c4dc6c35543@mail.gmail.com>

Well said, Tony.

Jeff Newberry



>
> If this is simply a venting at Ron Silliman because he doesn't like your
> poetry, who cares?  Silliman doesn't like a lot of stuff. Neither do I.
> Neither do you.  The notion that we are engaged in some sort of
> post-avant vs. SOQ battle, however, is laughable--the only people who
> care are poetic pundits and polemicists and those who they directly
> attack. (And a few megalomaniacal creative writing professors who really
> believe that they have a duty to "save" young writers from pernicious
> influences.)
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Dec 19 17:01:02 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:01:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet vs editor: response to Chris
References: <20051219212605.9462113CFF@smapp04.siteprotect.com>
Message-ID: <006201c604e7$b4911000$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Question: how can there be a wider variety of poetry than a given poet composes himself--*at least in part*?

--Bob G.
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From matthew.shindell at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 17:03:47 2005
From: matthew.shindell at gmail.com (Matthew Shindell)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:03:47 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now Streaming Shin Yu Pai,
	H_NGM_N #4 and Nick Piombino!
Message-ID: <3f273e940512191403p59450623h667384bbe7ac1b94@mail.gmail.com>

Hello and Happy Holidays! As my gift to you, I've just finished
remastering and uploading new versions of nine hours of My Vocabulary.
So all of the shows now sound better than ever, plus there are three
new hours just added. Not only have I put last week's show with Shin
Yu Pai and H_NGM_N #4 online, but I've also put up a show from last
April that included a special reading by Nick Piombino.

So please check it out. Head over to http://myvocabulary.blogspot.com.
And if you want to do something for Michel and me this holiday, please
send this message to at least one friend you think might enjoy the
show.

You can find the Nick Piombino show, along with a complete playlist,
in the sidebar. Here's what you'll hear from last week's show . . .

Poets:

In the first hour we had a live reading in the studio from Shin Yu
Pai. In the second hour we had readings from H_NGM_N #4. Introductions
by Nathan Pritts. Poets include Clay Matthews, Jen Tynes, Jon Leon,
Oni Buchanan, Noah Falk and Matt Hart.

Music:
(song title- artist)

brazil- cornelius
tres cosas- juana molina
hangin' round- lou reed
vicious- lou reed
rebellion- arcade fire
sound and vision- david bowie
joy- circulatory system
lo boob oscillator- stereolab
lover's spit- broken social scene
books written for girls- camera obscura
don't you know- pulp
skip tracer- sonic youth
la madrague- brigitte bardot
danzas argentinas- oni buchanan
space patrol- peter thomas sound orchestra
ghost- neutral milk hotel
walkin' after midnight- patsy cline

ENJOY!

Matthew Shindell

--
My Vocabulary: Poems and Music
Hosted by Matthew Shindell
Music by Michel Cazary
Sundays 4-6 pm (PST) on KSDT (http://ksdt.ucsd.edu/)
http://myvocabulary.blogspot.com
MyVocabulary at gmail.com



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Dec 19 18:07:25 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:07:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ps to my last post
References: <00a301c604dc$3e0db600$6d00a8c0@Emily>
Message-ID: <007401c604f0$fa35a680$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> The notion that we are engaged in some sort of
> post-avant vs. SOQ battle, however, is laughable--the only people who
> care are poetic pundits and polemicists and those who they directly
> attack. (And a few megalomaniacal creative writing professors who really
> believe that they have a duty to "save" young writers from pernicious
> influences.)
>
> Tony

Oh, sure, no real poet cares about the pseudo-conflict between the newer 
kinds of poetry and the older, just as none of the Impressionists got upset 
with the academic painters of their time, and vice versa; and none of the 
mid-20th-century non-representational painters believed in any kind of 
serious conflict between themselves and representational painters, and vice 
versa; and no rock 'n' rollers paid any attention to alleged friction 
between them and older forms of pop music in the fifties and sixties; etc.

--Bob G. 




From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Dec 19 18:38:15 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:38:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ps to my last post
Message-ID: <20051219233815.1439313CEA@smapp03.siteprotect.com>

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From antrobin at clipper.net  Mon Dec 19 19:00:14 2005
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:00:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ps to my last post
In-Reply-To: <007401c604f0$fa35a680$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00c201c604f8$640f4280$6d00a8c0@Emily>

"Oh, sure, no real poet cares about the pseudo-conflict between the
newer 
kinds of poetry and the older, just as none of the Impressionists got
upset 
with the academic painters of their time, and vice versa; and none of
the 
mid-20th-century non-representational painters believed in any kind of 
serious conflict between themselves and representational painters, and
vice 
versa; and no rock 'n' rollers paid any attention to alleged friction 
between them and older forms of pop music in the fifties and sixties;
etc."

--Bob G. 

**

Well, if we could foment a vizpo vs. everyone else battle, that'd be
something.  

Tony




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Dec 19 19:25:18 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:25:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ps to my last post
References: <00c201c604f8$640f4280$6d00a8c0@Emily>
Message-ID: <008701c604fb$db94c3e0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Well, if we could foment a vizpo vs. everyone else battle, that'd be
> something.
>
> Tony

It'd be nice if we avoided it, Tony, but someday I'm pretty sure there will 
be a substantial conflict between those who don't combine arts and those who 
do.  Right now, of course, visual poetry and other forms of what I call 
pluraesthetic art are too weak.

--Bob G. 




From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Mon Dec 19 22:17:59 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:17:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ps to my last post
Message-ID: <20051220031759.903D313CEA@smapp02.siteprotect.com>

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From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Dec 20 12:02:59 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:02:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
Message-ID: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com>

I think Chrises Lott and Stroffolino were on to something with their  
discussion of why it's more common for contemporary poets than for  
musicians to be dismissive of work done differently from their own.

Western musicians, with the exception of serial and aleatory  
composers, work with a common set of rhythmic and harmonic  
structures. Melodies and chords are built (mostly) on standard  
intervals of time and pitch endlessly recombined. When composers like  
Bartok or Ellington or Simon hears something new to them -- an  
unusual chord progression, a new rhythm, a new timbre from a  
previously unheard instrument or combination of instruments, whatever  
-- they want to learn how to use that in their own music. It's the  
same  when  a rock bassist hears a nifty riff in a jazz piece, when a  
mandolinist wonders "can I do something like a banjo roll on this  
thing?", when a folk guitarist listening to blues starts to  
understand the expressive value of bent notes. For a musician, other  
kinds of music are resources, sources of technique.

That doesn't usually translate into proficiency at many different  
kinds of music. At the highest professional levels technique is  
simply too demanding for any but a handful of performers to excel in  
more than kind of music, and the same is true of composition, at  
least in jazz and,  for want of a better term, classical music.

There's almost nothing like that for poets. As a metrical poet, I can  
learn something about expressively used line breaks from a good free  
verse poet, how enjambment can create a suspension of meaning  
resolved in the second line. But the effect isn't nearly as strong in  
metrical verse since there enjambment rhythmically joins the lines  
while in free verse it separates them. It's not at all the same as  
the realization fo a musician that you can delay tonic resolution by  
moving from the IV chord to the II7 before the V7, and that it works  
because the II chord in a gvien key is the V chord for the key based  
on the root of the V chord in the key you started in.

Beyond that, these days one can get an MFA in poetry without ever  
learning to scan (imagine a performance or composition degree from  
Berklee without basic harmony), a result of the general disparagement  
of technique, including not just prosody but logic, rhetoric, and  
narrative structure. What is a young poet taught to learn from other  
poets? Attitude? Politics? Bad linguistics? Worse epistemology?

Another thing is that the web (along wth some MFA programs) has made  
it possible to find lots of poets "just like you," so you never have  
to be confronted with any other practice.  That's unthinkable in the  
music world, where intrumetns costs a lot of money and just to make a  
living (or even just to play)  you've got to play with pople of  
widely varying tastes.

Mike S


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Dec 20 12:55:43 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:55:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
Message-ID: <200512201730.jBKHUTw3129920@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Mike---thanks for picking up this thread again. I can't write now, but 
hopefully in next few days. Chris

----------
>From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
>To: New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
>Date: Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 9:02 AM
>

> I think Chrises Lott and Stroffolino were on to something with their
> discussion of why it's more common for contemporary poets than for
> musicians to be dismissive of work done differently from their own.
>
> Western musicians, with the exception of serial and aleatory
> composers, work with a common set of rhythmic and harmonic
> structures. Melodies and chords are built (mostly) on standard
> intervals of time and pitch endlessly recombined. When composers like
> Bartok or Ellington or Simon hears something new to them -- an
> unusual chord progression, a new rhythm, a new timbre from a
> previously unheard instrument or combination of instruments, whatever
> -- they want to learn how to use that in their own music. It's the
> same  when  a rock bassist hears a nifty riff in a jazz piece, when a
> mandolinist wonders "can I do something like a banjo roll on this
> thing?", when a folk guitarist listening to blues starts to
> understand the expressive value of bent notes. For a musician, other
> kinds of music are resources, sources of technique.
>
> That doesn't usually translate into proficiency at many different
> kinds of music. At the highest professional levels technique is
> simply too demanding for any but a handful of performers to excel in
> more than kind of music, and the same is true of composition, at
> least in jazz and,  for want of a better term, classical music.
>
> There's almost nothing like that for poets. As a metrical poet, I can
> learn something about expressively used line breaks from a good free
> verse poet, how enjambment can create a suspension of meaning
> resolved in the second line. But the effect isn't nearly as strong in
> metrical verse since there enjambment rhythmically joins the lines
> while in free verse it separates them. It's not at all the same as
> the realization fo a musician that you can delay tonic resolution by
> moving from the IV chord to the II7 before the V7, and that it works
> because the II chord in a gvien key is the V chord for the key based
> on the root of the V chord in the key you started in.
>
> Beyond that, these days one can get an MFA in poetry without ever
> learning to scan (imagine a performance or composition degree from
> Berklee without basic harmony), a result of the general disparagement
> of technique, including not just prosody but logic, rhetoric, and
> narrative structure. What is a young poet taught to learn from other
> poets? Attitude? Politics? Bad linguistics? Worse epistemology?
>
> Another thing is that the web (along wth some MFA programs) has made
> it possible to find lots of poets "just like you," so you never have
> to be confronted with any other practice.  That's unthinkable in the
> music world, where intrumetns costs a lot of money and just to make a
> living (or even just to play)  you've got to play with pople of
> widely varying tastes.
>
> Mike S
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 14:09:00 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:09:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
In-Reply-To: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com>
References: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com>

Good points, Mike.

I've played guitar, piano, and bass for years.  Always, always am I
searching for something new.  I love the way many musicians adapt the sounds
of different types of music into their own.

I try to do the same with poetry, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm
not always successful.  I've experimented, for example, with trying to find
a form of Creeds--like the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed--to adapt
into my poetry.  So far, I've been unsuccessful.  I've also tried to mix the
structure of blues with poetry, an old idea certainly.  But, I tried it with
images:  as you already know, blues often works with a three-line AAB
structure, presenting a problem that's often repeated in the A lines and
sometimes ironically resolved in the B line:

Tell me, what in the world can be wrong?
I said, now, tell me, what in the world can be wrong?
Woke up this morning, trouble knocking on my door.
(Howlin' Wolf, "Tell Me")

I tried to do the same thing with images--or I've not tried yet.  I have
this metapoem in the back of my head, a kind of call to write.  I'm
struggling, too, with the I-IV-V7 structure of the blues--has that ever been
adapted to poetry?  Is it possible?  I've not tried it yet; perhaps I fear
failure.  Don't we all?

I think of writers like Kevin Young, as well, who have adapted in tone if
not structure Film Noir.  I've not read it, but I hear that Young's *Black
Mariah* is good--and that's all that I've heard.  Other writers have adapted
religious structures like prayer to their works.

So, I agree that it's a problem that poets don't have the kind of musical
vocabulary that you suggest.  But I will say this:  as much as I try to
write music, it all sounds like the blues.  I can't seem to break away from
that structure, even when I try things like I IV V VIminor.  Of course, this
observation probably says more about my poor musicianship and song writing
skills than anything else.  But, in poetry, this lack of a common vocabulary
(for lack of a better term) does lead to some exciting, ground-breaking
work.  I think of writers like Pound who revelled in tradition while
simultaneously breaking new ground.

Thanks for your comments, Mike.

Jeff Newberry






On 12/20/05, Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:
>
> I think Chrises Lott and Stroffolino were on to something with their
> discussion of why it's more common for contemporary poets than for
> musicians to be dismissive of work done differently from their own.
>
> Western musicians, with the exception of serial and aleatory
> composers, work with a common set of rhythmic and harmonic
> structures. Melodies and chords are built (mostly) on standard
> intervals of time and pitch endlessly recombined. When composers like
> Bartok or Ellington or Simon hears something new to them -- an
> unusual chord progression, a new rhythm, a new timbre from a
> previously unheard instrument or combination of instruments, whatever
> -- they want to learn how to use that in their own music. It's the
> same  when  a rock bassist hears a nifty riff in a jazz piece, when a
> mandolinist wonders "can I do something like a banjo roll on this
> thing?", when a folk guitarist listening to blues starts to
> understand the expressive value of bent notes. For a musician, other
> kinds of music are resources, sources of technique.
>
> That doesn't usually translate into proficiency at many different
> kinds of music. At the highest professional levels technique is
> simply too demanding for any but a handful of performers to excel in
> more than kind of music, and the same is true of composition, at
> least in jazz and,  for want of a better term, classical music.
>
> There's almost nothing like that for poets. As a metrical poet, I can
> learn something about expressively used line breaks from a good free
> verse poet, how enjambment can create a suspension of meaning
> resolved in the second line. But the effect isn't nearly as strong in
> metrical verse since there enjambment rhythmically joins the lines
> while in free verse it separates them. It's not at all the same as
> the realization fo a musician that you can delay tonic resolution by
> moving from the IV chord to the II7 before the V7, and that it works
> because the II chord in a gvien key is the V chord for the key based
> on the root of the V chord in the key you started in.
>
> Beyond that, these days one can get an MFA in poetry without ever
> learning to scan (imagine a performance or composition degree from
> Berklee without basic harmony), a result of the general disparagement
> of technique, including not just prosody but logic, rhetoric, and
> narrative structure. What is a young poet taught to learn from other
> poets? Attitude? Politics? Bad linguistics? Worse epistemology?
>
> Another thing is that the web (along wth some MFA programs) has made
> it possible to find lots of poets "just like you," so you never have
> to be confronted with any other practice.  That's unthinkable in the
> music world, where intrumetns costs a lot of money and just to make a
> living (or even just to play)  you've got to play with pople of
> widely varying tastes.
>
> Mike S
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Dec 20 15:18:46 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:18:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
References: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com>
	<731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004701c605a2$95e63250$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I would suggest that visual poets find at least as many different things going on in the work of other visual poets as musicians find going on in the work of other musicians.  That I can almost always find something worth stealing in a good visual poet's work, but rarely in the (just as good) work of conventional poets is responsible for my attitude toward the latter--which may sound like I believe nothing's there of any value when it's intended to be nothing's there I can use.

--Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Dec 20 17:37:25 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:37:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Chris
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C38@mail.emerson.edu>
	<026223AC-8C49-4265-984A-0C52ABC3EB7D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c605b5$f38d9700$19df3052@ANNY>

Why Hal?

I am enjoying the entire story (-to which also your comment belongs) 
thouroughly, still ways and ways back, but might catch up one day,
:-)

Anny

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 9:50 PM


>
> On Dec 19, 2005, at 3:17 PM, William Knott wrote:
>
>> Chris, at least i headed my response with
>> your whole post, so a reader could see
>> all of what I was replying to. . .
>> you're quoting only part of mine, and refuting
>> that part. . .
>
> By and large, the less we see of this discussion,
> the better. Do more cutting.
>
> Hal        "Music is continuous. Only listening
>                is intermittent."
>                               --Henry David Thoreau
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>
>




From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Dec 20 18:33:29 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:33:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com>
	<731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7338F184-28BE-4396-B0AC-21DF9CE9A213@mac.com>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 2:09 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Good points, Mike.
>
> I've played guitar, piano, and bass for years.  Always, always am I  
> searching for something new.  I love the way many musicians adapt  
> the sounds of different types of music into their own.
>
> I try to do the same with poetry, but I'll be the first to admit  
> that I'm not always successful.  I've experimented, for example,  
> with trying to find a form of Creeds--like the Nicene Creed or the  
> Apostle's Creed--to adapt into my poetry.  So far, I've been  
> unsuccessful.  I've also tried to mix the structure of blues with  
> poetry, an old idea certainly.  But, I tried it with images:  as  
> you already know, blues often works with a three-line AAB  
> structure, presenting a problem that's often repeated in the A  
> lines and sometimes ironically resolved in the B line:
>
> Tell me, what in the world can be wrong?
> I said, now, tell me, what in the world can be wrong?
> Woke up this morning, trouble knocking on my door.
> (Howlin' Wolf, "Tell Me")
>
> I tried to do the same thing with images--or I've not tried yet.  I  
> have this metapoem in the back of my head, a kind of call to  
> write.  I'm struggling, too, with the I-IV-V7 structure of the  
> blues--has that ever been adapted to poetry?  Is it possible?  I've  
> not tried it yet; perhaps I fear failure.  Don't we all?
>
> I think of writers like Kevin Young, as well, who have adapted in  
> tone if not structure Film Noir.  I've not read it, but I hear that  
> Young's Black Mariah is good--and that's all that I've heard.   
> Other writers have adapted religious structures like prayer to  
> their works.
>


I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any analog in spoken (or  
silently read) poetry to chord progressions in music. But the blues  
as lyric/stanza form is a good example of the kind of cross- 
fertilization possible from one formal tradition to another. Victor  
Hugo thought the pantoum, a Malaysian form, could be adapted to  
French verse, and by golly we now assign it as an exercise in  
Creative Writing classes. All those fabulous structures of the  
troubadours, the Italian sonnet, all have made English formal verse  
much richer because, I think, the structure is at a scale simlar to  
the scale of chord progression in music.

Free verse seems to me to be much harder to learn from; -- the  
structural scale is either far too fine, so that every word,  line  
break, whitespace, punctuation,  capitalization and everything is  
deliberately chosen and it becomes overwhelming, or else it's just  
unjustified text and no choice really matters. Those are  
charicatures, but not too far off, I think. Free verse is damned hard  
to do well, because you get no help at the scale meter and stanza  
give you in formal/metrical verse. Paul Lake's essay on fractal  
structure in formal verse addresses some of this.


>
> So, I agree that it's a problem that poets don't have the kind of  
> musical vocabulary that you suggest.  But I will say this:  as much  
> as I try to write music, it all sounds like the blues.  I can't  
> seem to break away from that structure, even when I try things like  
> I IV V VIminor.  Of course, this observation probably says more  
> about my poor musicianship and song writing skills than anything  
> else.  But, in poetry, this lack of a common vocabulary (for lack  
> of a better term) does lead to some exciting, ground-breaking  
> work.  I think of writers like Pound who revelled in tradition  
> while simultaneously breaking new ground.
>


Really I guess I think that there's a rich vocabulary something like  
the musical vocabulary for poets working in a formal tradition, and  
to that extent I take back some of what I said. But that vocabulary  
doesn't cross, or only partly crosses, the line betwee free verse   
and trad form, and perhaps not between the4 various kinds of free  
verse. All tat may be just a way of saying I find free verse  
extremely hard to write. I think I've written a few decent free verse  
poms, but they seem like accidents.

> Thanks for your comments, Mike.


And for yours, Jeff
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/20/05, Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote: I think  
> Chrises Lott and Stroffolino were on to something with their
> discussion of why it's more common for contemporary poets than for
> musicians to be dismissive of work done differently from their own.
>
> Western musicians, with the exception of serial and aleatory
> composers, work with a common set of rhythmic and harmonic
> structures. Melodies and chords are built (mostly) on standard
> intervals of time and pitch endlessly recombined. When composers like
> Bartok or Ellington or Simon hears something new to them -- an
> unusual chord progression, a new rhythm, a new timbre from a
> previously unheard instrument or combination of instruments, whatever
> -- they want to learn how to use that in their own music. It's the
> same  when  a rock bassist hears a nifty riff in a jazz piece, when a
> mandolinist wonders "can I do something like a banjo roll on this
> thing?", when a folk guitarist listening to blues starts to
> understand the expressive value of bent notes. For a musician, other
> kinds of music are resources, sources of technique.
>
> That doesn't usually translate into proficiency at many different
> kinds of music. At the highest professional levels technique is
> simply too demanding for any but a handful of performers to excel in
> more than kind of music, and the same is true of composition, at
> least in jazz and,  for want of a better term, classical music.
>
> There's almost nothing like that for poets. As a metrical poet, I can
> learn something about expressively used line breaks from a good free
> verse poet, how enjambment can create a suspension of meaning
> resolved in the second line. But the effect isn't nearly as strong in
> metrical verse since there enjambment rhythmically joins the lines
> while in free verse it separates them. It's not at all the same as
> the realization fo a musician that you can delay tonic resolution by
> moving from the IV chord to the II7 before the V7, and that it works
> because the II chord in a gvien key is the V chord for the key based
> on the root of the V chord in the key you started in.
>
> Beyond that, these days one can get an MFA in poetry without ever
> learning to scan (imagine a performance or composition degree from
> Berklee without basic harmony), a result of the general disparagement
> of technique, including not just prosody but logic, rhetoric, and
> narrative structure. What is a young poet taught to learn from other
> poets? Attitude? Politics? Bad linguistics? Worse epistemology?
>
> Another thing is that the web (along wth some MFA programs) has made
> it possible to find lots of poets "just like you," so you never have
> to be confronted with any other practice.  That's unthinkable in the
> music world, where intrumetns costs a lot of money and just to make a
> living (or even just to play)  you've got to play with pople of
> widely varying tastes.
>
> Mike S
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> -- 
> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>                                                    --Miguel de Unamuno
>
> Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Dec 20 18:34:31 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:34:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
In-Reply-To: <004701c605a2$95e63250$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com>
	<731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701c605a2$95e63250$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <43FC7BB6-3E26-4667-9D3F-3FA4091DB637@mac.com>


On Dec 20, 2005, at 3:18 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> I would suggest that visual poets find at least as many different  
> things going on in the work of other visual poets as musicians find  
> going on in the work of other musicians.  That I can almost always  
> find something worth stealing in a good visual poet's work, but  
> rarely in the (just as good) work of conventional poets is  
> responsible for my attitude toward the latter--which may sound like  
> I believe nothing's there of any value when it's intended to be  
> nothing's there I can use.
>
> --Bob G.


Bob,

I think you're quite right. That's why, as beautuiful and interesting  
as I often find your work to be, I'm not quite sure it's poetry.   
That is in no way a value judgement -- call it my private taxonomy,  
which I have no wish to impose on others.

Mike S.







From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Dec 20 19:34:59 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:34:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
References: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com><731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com><004701c605a2$95e63250$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<43FC7BB6-3E26-4667-9D3F-3FA4091DB637@mac.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c605c6$60285fc0$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>




>
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 3:18 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>> I would suggest that visual poets find at least as many different  things 
>> going on in the work of other visual poets as musicians find  going on in 
>> the work of other musicians.  That I can almost always  find something 
>> worth stealing in a good visual poet's work, but  rarely in the (just as 
>> good) work of conventional poets is  responsible for my attitude toward 
>> the latter--which may sound like  I believe nothing's there of any value 
>> when it's intended to be  nothing's there I can use.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I think you're quite right. That's why, as beautuiful and interesting  as 
> I often find your work to be, I'm not quite sure it's poetry.   That is in 
> no way a value judgement -- call it my private taxonomy,  which I have no 
> wish to impose on others.
>
> Mike S.


Thanks--again, for this isn't the first time you've said that, Michael.  But 
I don't think you've yet told me what it is, if it's not poetry.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Dec 21 08:00:58 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:00:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
References: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com><731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com><004701c605a2$95e63250$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<43FC7BB6-3E26-4667-9D3F-3FA4091DB637@mac.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c6062e$96bd2bc0$a6b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Another point of interest is how little formal poets and language poets 
steal from each other.  I see no reason a strict sonnet couldn't be written 
using langpo "missyntacticality" or misspellings (like "lighght").  In fact, 
E. E. Cummings made many langpoetic sonnets that had the right meter and 
rhymed.  I don't think any contemporary language poet has made any kind of 
formal poem using langpoetic devices.  Nor has a formal poet used a 
langpoetic device in one of his poems, although the freeversers more and 
more are availing themselves of langpo tricks.

I thought of one exception: rewritten classic poems that are garbled in one 
way or another, sometimes via a computer program--e.g., "Shawl-eye crumbpair 
(the 2!) as under daze."

One of my conclusions seems to hold: that formalist poets ignore the devices 
of language poetry, even though those devices could easily be used in their 
poetry without compromising the latter's adherence to meter and other formal 
requirements.

--Bob G. 




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Dec 21 12:40:26 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:40:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writing (and playing) across types
In-Reply-To: <001f01c6062e$96bd2bc0$a6b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <4B3A59EB-F7F4-4A89-B399-71F64F8CC302@mac.com>
	<731bb17a0512201109i715fc4b5g229fc70128912fde@mail.gmail.com>
	<004701c605a2$95e63250$73b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<43FC7BB6-3E26-4667-9D3F-3FA4091DB637@mac.com>
	<001f01c6062e$96bd2bc0$a6b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <97F0C210-7775-4613-8CA5-E19D62D3739C@mac.com>

Bob, in answer to your previous question about what I'd call what you  
do -- I don't get to decide. I suspect that some term in fairly  
common by you and/or other practitioners will be what's used 50 years  
from now.



On Dec 21, 2005, at 8:00 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Another point of interest is how little formal poets and language  
> poets steal from each other.  I see no reason a strict sonnet  
> couldn't be written using langpo "missyntacticality" or  
> misspellings (like "lighght").  In fact, E. E. Cummings made many  
> langpoetic sonnets that had the right meter and rhymed.  I don't  
> think any contemporary language poet has made any kind of formal  
> poem using langpoetic devices.  Nor has a formal poet used a  
> langpoetic device in one of his poems, although the freeversers  
> more and more are availing themselves of langpo tricks.
>
> I thought of one exception: rewritten classic poems that are  
> garbled in one way or another, sometimes via a computer program-- 
> e.g., "Shawl-eye crumbpair (the 2!) as under daze."
>
> One of my conclusions seems to hold: that formalist poets ignore  
> the devices of language poetry, even though those devices could  
> easily be used in their poetry without compromising the latter's  
> adherence to meter and other formal requirements.
>
> --Bob G.


And as for this, I certainly can't speak for "formalist poets," but  
my personal answer is that the kinds of lingiustic disruptions  
practiced by the langpofolk are based on  linguistic and  
epistemological theories that aren't even wrong. They're just silly.

Beyond that, one of my goals is to not let formal considerations  
drive the language of my verse. It seems to me that meter and other  
formal aspects should be in balance with the natural speech of the  
time -- Wordsworth's "a man speaking to men," ya know -- and that the  
power of metrical verse rises from the interaction between natural  
language and meter. If I'm right about that, then even if the langpo  
theorists are right about their stuff, their practice would be  
destructive to metrical verse.

Mike S.


From chris.lott at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 18:49:33 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:49:33 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Apology to the List
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512211549u61a8ac61qa359764897ee2e71@mail.gmail.com>

When it comes right down to it, Bob Grumman is probably right-- I
don't know much about poetry. All I know is what I have read and
studied and absorbed and been exposed to, and I didn't choose a lot of
those paths for myself. I know what poetry moves me and what poetry
doesn't. I know that I have a practically indestructible love for
poems that have made me start, or scared me, or shocked me, or made me
gasp and read them again, or at the close of which I've just found
myself staring into space overwhelmed and amazed and grateful, or
brought simple tears to my eyes. I know that these feelings are
authentic and that they aren't limited to any particular school.

I know that the charm of some poems wears off when I learn more, but
those I really consider good do not, even if their charms turn out to
be simple. I know that it's taken many readings-- and experience, and
suggestions from others-- to "get" other poems. And I'm grateful for
that too.

It's my own failing that I take too personally what appear to be
attacks on poems and poets I enjoy...  and most likely my own
ignorance that leaves so many poems inaccessible despite wholehearted
effort to understand them. I do object to characterizations of diverse
taste as necessarily uninformed or "wishy-washy" and I do object to
the elevation of one "school" at the expense of another because I
don't think my own taste is wishy-washy or uninformed and I don't
think aesthetics are a zero-sum game.

I don't understand why differences in taste can't sometimes just be
differences in taste that have as much to do with the readers as the
poems. I'm not sure why it seems necessary for some commentators to
take away what one loves in order to put their own contributions in,
as if our hearts aren't big enough or our minds not large enough to
accommodate both.

What I do belatedly realize is that this forum isn't the place to
figure those questions out. I don't even know if they have answers.
But so far my interactions here haven't helped me much and it's
unlikely they've been of any benefit to anyone else.

For that I apologize to everyone here and will do my best to limit my
posts and choose a more productive tone and approach.

And I apologize specifically to a few who I've gotten frustrated with
and posted to/at out of the darker parts of my nature: Bob Grumman,
Richard Dillon, and Hal come to mind. You've all written better poems
and understand poetry better than I probably ever will-- I can't get
past the emotional as Bob does, I can't seem to pry open my own
aesthetic for examination as Richard has, and I've certainly not--
despite trying-- found a way to stay above the fray, accept the
diversity of viewpoints, and just take the good things from each as
Hal does so often.

Oh, and Bill Knott too-- I have no idea why I'm arguing with someone
who I'm emotionally allied with and whose work I admired long before I
discovered that he poked around this list sometimes.

It seems to me that-- considering the larger context-- the things we
have in common are far more important than those which separate us.

Maybe next year I can do better.

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Dec 21 19:49:23 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:49:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Apology to the List
References: <9b1b9dab0512211549u61a8ac61qa359764897ee2e71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a301c60691$8d56ac10$a6b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> When it comes right down to it, Bob Grumman is probably right-- I
> don't know much about poetry.

Ooops, Chris, now you're gong to have to apologize again: surely I never 
said that about you.  Maybe I've said I thought you ignorant in some minor 
area, though I don't even remember that.  What I said is that you're a 
complete . . .  But, wait, I've been warned by James not to engage in 
name-calling.

Seriously, Chris, no need to apologize to me.  I'm a pop-off artist, and too 
lazy for tact, so half of the guff I get back is probably deserved, and the 
rest of it understandable.

Cheer up, and have a Merry Christmas!

--Bob G.




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 22 12:00:57 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:00:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Child Is This?
Message-ID: <BFD037E9.16C16%grahamd@ripon.edu>



What Child is This?

Out in the parking lot, preseasonal,
the Christmas carol stops with a car engine.
And the lovely tune it is set to, "Greensleeves,"
continues, like a dimming light in a radio,
haunting us as we go on talking to Grandfather.

Hovering like adorers at his chrome crib,
Father and I might make him laugh, if he could stand
outside his coma, his scrawny doll's body,
reading the crack in our attention, the worry--
Will he remain like this through Christmas?

He might wonder that himself, waiting for heaven.
But when he sighs and smacks his lips
the sounds are so personal, I jump. And Father,
snapping on his razor, sighs back to him
a commiserating "Yes," and tells me to keep talking.

And it's like talking to the one-sided past,
telling him he's released, his God is waiting,
and hearing only his silence, the razor shaving him,
and the old hymn yoked to the older folk song,
the cast-out lover complaining through the holiness.


----Mark Jarman.  The Rote Walker.  Carnegie-Mellon UP, 1981.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Dec 22 12:04:38 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:04:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rexroth
Message-ID: <BFD038C6.16C18%grahamd@ripon.edu>

It's the birthday of Kenneth Rexroth.



Portrait Of The Author
As A Young Anarchist

1917-18-19, 
While things were going on in Europe,
Our most used term of scorn or abuse
Was "bushwa." We employed it correctly,
But we thought it was French for "bullshit."
I lived in Toledo, Ohio,
On Delaware Avenue, the line
Between the rich and poor neighborhoods.
We played in the jungles by Ten Mile Creek,
And along the golf course in Ottawa Park.
There were two classes of kids, and they
Had nothing in common: the rich kids
Who worked as caddies, and the poor kids
Who snitched golf balls. I belonged to the
Saving group of exceptionalists
Who, after dark, and on rainy days,
Stole out and shat in the golf holes.

--Kenneth Rexroth


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 12:04:25 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:04:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Child Is This?
In-Reply-To: <BFD037E9.16C16%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BFD037E9.16C16%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512220904k4f65e287m4376350ee090ad90@mail.gmail.com>

Thank for this one, David.

I don't own *The Rote Walker*.  I recently read *To the Green Man*, however,
and I'm glad to see Jarman breaking away from strict narrative and
formalism.  *To the Green Man* is a remarkably balanced book:  Jarman
embraces pure lyricism, mixing free verse and form the way he mixes lyric
and narrative modes.  Indeed, this mixing mirrors the way he mixes Pagan and
Christian symbolism in the book.

Yours,

Jeff Newberry


On 12/22/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> What Child is This?
>
> Out in the parking lot, preseasonal,
> the Christmas carol stops with a car engine.
> And the lovely tune it is set to, "Greensleeves,"
> continues, like a dimming light in a radio,
> haunting us as we go on talking to Grandfather.
>
> Hovering like adorers at his chrome crib,
> Father and I might make him laugh, if he could stand
> outside his coma, his scrawny doll's body,
> reading the crack in our attention, the worry--
> Will he remain like this through Christmas?
>
> He might wonder that himself, waiting for heaven.
> But when he sighs and smacks his lips
> the sounds are so personal, I jump. And Father,
> snapping on his razor, sighs back to him
> a commiserating "Yes," and tells me to keep talking.
>
> And it's like talking to the one-sided past,
> telling him he's released, his God is waiting,
> and hearing only his silence, the razor shaving him,
> and the old hymn yoked to the older folk song,
> the cast-out lover complaining through the holiness.
>
>
> ----Mark Jarman.  *The Rote Walker*.  Carnegie-Mellon UP, 1981.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From michellemccoy909 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 22 17:26:50 2005
From: michellemccoy909 at hotmail.com (Michelle McCoy)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:26:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <BAY108-F31823C6138DAB288FC75D68B300@phx.gbl>

please do not send me anymore poems to my e-mail address

Thanks,'

Michelle

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Dec 22 18:21:42 2005
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:21:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Apology to the List
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0512211549u61a8ac61qa359764897ee2e71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9b1b9dab0512211549u61a8ac61qa359764897ee2e71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C126D56-BBD4-4F46-B089-BC38E96F4C86@mac.com>

Chris,

We all get cranky, and yours was a mild case, practically  
asymptomatic -- and we're through the solstics and the sun's coming  
back. Things wioll lterally be brighter.

Best,

Mike S.




From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 22 20:19:30 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:19:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Old Virginia Trees"
Message-ID: <E70E7D5D-D166-4EFB-A821-6DE8001B8BB8@earthlink.net>


Old Virginia Trees

Here's one called "Only Our Chagrin Remains"
standing alone in the middle of a cow pasture, forsaken
by its leaves, left starkly branched against a partly clouded sky.
Another called "Liberation of the Mind" hunches
over the road to the highway, dropping its late fruit
on passersby. A nearby copse cries out, "Come!
Join us! We, united, shall prevail!"

Our refusal does not stop there. It is insatiable
and knows no bounds. Our leader, thinking beyond
the limitations of space and time, says, "At the hour
in which I write, new tremors fill the air above the field.
We must be brave enough to face them." His collected works
wave from his branches like tiny hands. His name,
we think, is "Poverty is Not a Crime."

"The hand that writes," he says, "is worth the hand
that ploughs." And we all say, "Amen." Our revolutionary
will is strong in us. We wish the transformation
of the world to be as radical as it can be. On this mental
slope, the mirrors of inconstancy do not disturb us.
What, indeed, could they expect of us? Everything leads us
to our belief that "The Last Days of March" will be our savior.



Hal                  "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular."
                                             --Paul Violi

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Dec 23 05:19:05 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:19:05 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Apology to the List
References: <9b1b9dab0512211549u61a8ac61qa359764897ee2e71@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C126D56-BBD4-4F46-B089-BC38E96F4C86@mac.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c607aa$5007a1b0$18ec3652@ANNY>


h-o-p-e-f-u-l-l-y-
(private consideration)

holly holly
this is _not_ a pOm

Anny

From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Apology to the List


> Chris,
> 
> We all get cranky, and yours was a mild case, practically  
> asymptomatic -- and we're through the solstics and the sun's coming  
> back. Things wioll lterally be brighter.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Mike S.
> 
> 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 23 09:46:15 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:46:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Flanner: a paragraph from 1936
Message-ID: <9E1C76FE-C56B-4A2C-9993-7FCB38CAA18E@earthlink.net>



As ruler of a great European power, Herr Hitler is the oddest
figure on the Continent today, but even as a humble individual,
he would still be a curious character. With a limited mind, slight
formal education, a remarkable memory for print, uncanny powers
as an orator, and a face inappropriate to fame, in fifteen years he
planned, maneuvered and achieved an incredible career, which
was personal to him and has now become intimate in the lives of
sixty-five million German people. His brain is instinctive, not
logical, and has a feminine quota which, as a man of action, he
has mobilized. Lacking the cerebral faculty of creating new public
ideologies, as a fanatic he has developed his unusual capacity for
adapting those of others. Being self-taught, his mental processes
are mysterious; he is missionary-minded, his thinking is emotional,
his conclusions material. He has been studious with strange
results: he says he regards liberalism as a form of tyranny, hatred
and attack as part of man?s civic virtues, and equality of men as
immoral and against nature. Since he is a concentrated, introspective
dogmatist, he is uninformed by exterior criticism. On the other hand,
he is a natural and masterly advertiser, a phenomenal propagandist
within his limits, the greatest mob orator in German annals, and one
of the most inventive organizers in European history. He believes
in intolerance as a pragmatic principle. He accepts violence as a
detail of state, he says mercy is not his affair with men, yet he is
kind to dumb animals. He becomes sick if he sees blood, yet he is
unafraid of being killed or killing. He has mystical tendencies, no
common sense, and a Wagnerian taste for heroics and death. He
was born loaded with vanities and has developed megalomania as
his final decoration. He is an unstereotyped statesman, a specialist
in the unexpected; as a politician, he nullifies opposition by letting
friends oppose each other and by suppressing enemies. As a
bureaucrat, he dawdles for months over minor decisions, and
overnight forces large issues; he dislikes paper reports and loves
oral information. He is garrulous; in interviews, the interviewer
often fails to get in a word edgewise. Momentarily influenced by
colder, harder minds, he is ultimately convinced only by himself.
His moods change often, his opinions never. Since the age of twenty,
they have been mainly anti-Semitic, anti-Communist, anti-suffrage,
and Pan-German. He has a fine library of six thousand volumes,
yet he never reads; books would do him no good?his mind is
made up. Alternately polarized by indolence and furious energy,
he can outwork his colleagues in a crisis. He had the mediumistic
time sense of the imminent which is special to dictators. His
disordered nervous system gives him a psychic superiority over
the healthy and plodding. By his intimates, his fits of weeping
are undenied and unexplained, and give none of them an
advantage over him. At such moments, the neurasthenia of the
F?hrer, with tears on his cheeks, but life and death in his hands,
is too serious to be trifled with.

--Janet Flanner

fr. The New Yorker ? March 14, 1936

Hal           Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Dec 23 12:06:41 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:06:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bly's day
Message-ID: <BFD18AC0.16C89%grahamd@ripon.edu>

It's the birthday of Robert Bly.  Hard to believe he's 79 years old, I must
say.  I think his recent books have been as strong as any he's done--not
something one can often say about poets his age.


A Christmas Poem

Christmas is a place, like Jackson Hole, where we all agree
To meet once a year. It has water, and grass for horses;
All the fur traders can come in. We visited the place
As children, but we never heard the good stories.

Those stories only get told in the big tents, late
At night, when a trapper who has been caught
In his own trap, held down in icy water, talks; and a man
With a ponytail and a limp comes in from the edge of the fire.

As children, we knew there was more to it--
Why some men got drunk on Christmas Eve
Wasn't explained, nor why we were so often
Near tears nor why the stars came down so close,

Why so much was lost.  Those men and women
Who had died in wars started by others,
Did they come that night?  Is that why the Christmas tree
Trembled just before we opened the presents?

There was something about angels.  Angels we
Have heard on high Sweetly singing o'er
The plain.  The angels were certain.  But we could not
Be certain whether our family was worthy tonight.


-- Robert Bly.  Morning Poems.  Harper Perennial, 1997.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 23 12:07:18 2005
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:07:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] king dong
In-Reply-To: <BFD18AC0.16C89%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20051223170718.37625.qmail@web36511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

why was the gorilla called dong?  was it called ding
dong and did it have a pink ribbon tied to its dong? 
how did it fend off the biplanes and have time to
drink 400 pints of guinness?  yes, I think there is a
discourse of race in King Dong, race and black male
sexuality, as with the Dong's relationship with Fay
Wray (in the original) a white woman it has kidnapped
in order to brutally rape.  The gorilla is too
atavistic and someone wished for a cleaner sky.  How
did the Dong fall and not kill 1000s of screaming
NYers?  What was the size of the Dong's dong? did it
spill all over the place like distended tubes,
splashing everyone with gallons of gorilla spunk, as
it came in a rainbow coloured orgasm at the end of its
terrible fall?


	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. 
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Dec 23 13:13:13 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:13:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <004001c607ec$8a69bea0$81d63152@ANNY>


                                       @
                     /.-\         *                   *                  *              *                       *

          *        / & \`                   *                                                 *

                  , at .* ,                MERRY XMAS   *         *                  *

                                               ('''--_o,.I\   *      

                                              /`;--.,@ ,,`)               AND     *                   *

            `o O,* `' &'@\                                         

        *  (`'--)_@ .*   ()\      *   ___HAPPY NEW YEAR___    *           *

         //`;--._`''--.,,O'@;\\                           *                     *

       // @  /&*,()~o`;`__,,)                                                         *

*   //(    /`,@ ;+& () o*`;,-';\              *                         *                                 *

   ( ^ (`""--.,_0 +@ ' &( )`@-'\                       *                                 *

 // ? /-.,|||||| @``'''--....@ _-*/+ \                             *         *

         *   (  /@o`:;'--,.__ @*__``'.' '@`**)                                                          *

                         (( ;*,&(); @ &^;~`"`o; @(); \  =@  *                   *         *                           *

                         //  / (); o^~; & (). o @ * & ` &\'?\\\                                         *

                       //    `"="==""==,,,.,="=="==="`=='''\\                                         

                                   __.----.(\-''#####---...___...         





with my thanks to Antenna Culturale Europea for the Christmas Tree I am sharing with you, and to all the new and old Poets featured on the Corner, here is my latest update:



Kate Greenstreet

     http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=195   



Elizabeth Smither

  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=196



Bill Knott

   http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=197



Joel Weishaus

 http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=198



John Kinsella

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=199



Spencer Selby

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=200



David-Baptiste Chirot

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=201





New additions of previously featured Poets:



Alan Sondheim under Father - father of evil

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1425



Schr?dinger 

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1483



Rebecca Seiferle:

Year of the Snake

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1426



Not a War Song

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1427



Dragon Hill

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1428



True darkness is as rare as god

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1429



"Love my enemies, enemy my loves"

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1430



The Wound of Being

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1431



Taxonomy of Angels

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1432



Black Water

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1433



In the Name of the Tyrant

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1434



Night Music

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1435



Fire in a Jar

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1436



the burn that the oven rack scorched into

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1437



"City bombarded with icicles"

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1438





Landis Everson

Hang Up

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1439



Jack Spicer in Berkeley: 1949

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1440



Madrigal

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1441



A Poem Without A Question Mark In It

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1442



The Red Wheelbarrow

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1447





Amy King

The Living Still Have Their Names

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1448





Charles Martin

Sights of paths and leaves of pages

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1449



0021 Rio de Janeiro

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1450



0023 Rio de Janeiro

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1451



0024 Rio de Janeiro

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1452



0027 Rio de Janeiro

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1453



0033 Rio de Janeiro

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1454



 0040 S?o Paulo

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1455



0041 Rio de Janeiro

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1456



0095c Porto Alegre

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1457



0117 S?o Paulo

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1458



2220048 New York, NY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1459



270068 New York, NY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1460



270075 New York, NY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1461



270079 New York, NY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1462



270089 New York, NY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1463



280011 New York, NY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1464



280013 New York, NY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1465



280020 New York, NY

   http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1466         



      

Barry Alpert

IT'S BEEN A LOVELY DAY [via Jos de Putter]

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1474



FORBIDDEN QUEST [via Peter Delpeut]

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1475



BLOOD OF A POET [Jean Cocteau's]

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1476





On Poets on Poets, some translations into Italian by me of several poems by Rebecca Seiferle:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=34



Joel Weishaus: RICONFIGURANDO IL FIUME

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=35



John Kinsella:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=36

from his new book: The New Arcadia___



some more translations with a future mail _as soon as I have them online.

Again my best wishes,



             

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 23 14:01:23 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:01:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Hoidays
Message-ID: <200512231836.jBNIa6TF043632@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>



So, you're at some party baking cookies for santa 
and a 9 year old girl in an elf-suit sleepwalks from her room
and looks you in the eye and says, "mommy, mommy,
do you mean to tell me that a poem too embarrassed to
admit it's a publicity stunt can never be called transcendent
except by prigs?"

What do you tell her?
a) yes, virginia there is a satan claus
b) go to your room and spin your dreidel
c) "prigs are friends, not food."
d) ___________________________


Happy holidays,
Chris



From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 23 13:50:28 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:50:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Hoidays
In-Reply-To: <200512231836.jBNIa6TF043632@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200512231836.jBNIa6TF043632@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <DA6E8900-D643-4C99-A301-F212E3970A81@earthlink.net>


On Dec 23, 2005, at 2:01 PM, Chris Stroffolino wrote:

>
>
> So, you're at some party baking cookies for santa
> and a 9 year old girl in an elf-suit sleepwalks from her room
> and looks you in the eye and says, "mommy, mommy,
> do you mean to tell me that a poem too embarrassed to
> admit it's a publicity stunt can never be called transcendent
> except by prigs?"
>
> What do you tell her?
> a) yes, virginia there is a satan claus
> b) go to your room and spin your dreidel
> c) "prigs are friends, not food."
> d) ___________________________
>
>
> Happy holidays,
> Chris

d) Isn't it past your bedtime?

Hal           Art & Plastic Surgery

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 23 14:10:26 2005
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:10:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Akron/Family Interview - miPOradio
In-Reply-To: <004001c607ec$8a69bea0$81d63152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <20051223191026.36923.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A new interview just in time for the holidays!  A few lovely tunes are very included -- I hope you all enjoy:
   
   
  Boxers or briefs?  Bob Dylan or the Flaming Lips?  This interview touches on topics so varied, you'll drink up now and wonder later how you can get in on Akron/Family's sweet and buoyant sounds.  We traverse rough-hewn days in a hot-ass Brooklyn loft to sold-out shows in New York City's finest indie venues.  The landscape is speckled with talk of collaboration and mortared by banter on poetry and song-writing methods.  These guys have only just begun, and I feel privileged to have gotten a glimpse into the inner-workings of a band-in-progress.   They are bettering and bettering 
 with an eye out for you.


http://www.miporadio.com/
   
   
   
  http://www.amyking.org/blog/
   
   

		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. 
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 15:36:35 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:36:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merry Christmas!
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512231236s5dd9cabeuedf1072d9ba7715b@mail.gmail.com>

Every year, I post my favorite Christmas poem, Thomas Hardy's "The Oxen."

Hope that this finds all of you well.  Have a happy holiday season.

Jeff Newberry

The Oxen
Thomas Hardy

Christmas Eve, and twelve of the clock.
"Now they are all on their knees,"
An elder said as we sat in a flock
By the embers in hearthside ease.

We pictured the meek mild creatures where
They dwelt in their strawy pen,
Nor did it occur to one of us there
To doubt they were kneeling then.

So fair a fancy few would weave
In these years! Yet, I feel,
If someone said on Christmas Eve,
"Come; see the oxen kneel

"In the lonely barton by yonder coomb
Our childhood used to know,"
I should go with him in the gloom,
Hoping it might be so.








--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Dec 23 16:13:26 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:13:26 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] being cheerful
Message-ID: <00f801c60805$b78bf7e0$81d63152@ANNY>

Forgive my silliness, but this is too nice, click on the link

http://www.icq.com/img/friendship/static/card_16959_rs.swf


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Sat Dec 24 07:50:47 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 12:50:47 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Robin Hamilton - Pacts and Conjurations - New and
	Selected Poems
Message-ID: <005701c60888$a9e5c520$6801a8c0@PC232542321673>

Self-Publicity -- this is now available.

Anyone overseas interested in a copy, email me backchannel.  (Orders from 
the UK are straightforward -- see below).

Merry greetings of the seasonal whatsits to everyone.

Robin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roger Collett" <ra.collett at NTLWORLD.COM>
To: <POETRYETC at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Robin Hamilton - Pacts and Conjurations - New and Selected Poems


Robin Hamilton - Pacts and Conjurations - New and Selected Poems 1982-2004

This book of just under 200 pages of poetry is now available

at ?10.75 inc P&P direct from Arrowhead Press (UK Funds only).

Overseas and credit card customers will unfortunately have to wait

until Independent Northern Publishers get it on their web site.

Roger Collett
Arrowhead Press
70 Clifton Road
Darlington
DL1 5DX
United Kingdom

http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality."
Jules de Gaultier




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 24 11:24:41 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 11:24:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Kenneth Fearing, "Evening Song"
Message-ID: <78E4E934-4498-4B8F-BBEC-D553605E1CB7@earthlink.net>

Evening Song

Go to sleep, McKade;
Fold up the day, it was a bright scarf;
Put it away;
Take yourself apart like a house of cards.

It is time to be a gray mouse under a tall building;
Go there; go there now.
Look at the huge nails; run behind the pipes;
Scamper in the walls;
Crawl toward the beckoning girl, her breasts are warm.
But here is a dead man. A lunatic?
Kill him with your pistol. Creep past him to the girl.

Sleep, McKade;
Throw one arm across the bed; wind your watch;
You are a gentleman, and important;
Yawn; go to sleep.

The continent, turning from the sun, is dark and quiet;
Your ticker waits for tomorrow morning,
And you are alive now;
It will be a long time before they put McKade under the sod.
Sometime, but not now.
Sometime, though. Sometime, for certain.

Take apart your brain,
Close the mouths in it that have been hungry, they are fed for
     a while,
Go to sleep, you are a gentleman, McKade, alive and sane, a
     gentleman of position.

Tip your hat to the lady;
Speak to the mayor;
You are a friend of the mayor's, are you not?
True, a friend of the mayor's.
And you met the Queen of Rumania? True.

Then go to sleep;
Be a dog sleeping in the old sun;
Be an animal dreaming in the old sun, beside a Roman road;
Be a dog lying in the meadow, watching soldiers pass;
Follow the girl who beckons to you;
Run from the man with the dagger; it can split your bones;
Be terrified of strangers, and the sea, and of great height;
Forget it, then; curl up and dream in the old sun that warms
     Manhattan.
Sleep, McKade.
Yawn. Go to sleep.

fr. transition #2 (May 1927)

in Kenneth Fearing: Complete Poems
[Orono, Maine: The National Poetry Foundation, 1994]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Dec 25 15:55:25 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 14:55:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Warning
Message-ID: <BFD4635C.16D85%grahamd@ripon.edu>


A Warning to My Readers

Do not think me gentle
because I speak in praise
of gentleness, or elegant
because I honor the grace
that keeps this world. I am
a man crude as any,
gross of speech, intolerant,
stubborn, angry, full
of fits and furies. That I
may have spoken well
at times, is not natural.
A wonder is what it is.

  --Wendell Berry.  *Collected Poems*
                   


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Dec 25 17:58:13 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 17:58:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal
Message-ID: <024601c609a6$afc85240$6601a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Elizabeth McFarland Hoffman, the wife of Daniel Hoffman.

 
A short stint as a copywriter at an advertising agency was quickly followed by a job as poetry editor at Scholastic, and then she became poetry editor of Ladies' Home Journal, based at the time in Philadelphia. From 1948 to 1962 she published some 900 poems by authors like Maxine Kumin, Randall Jarrell, W.H. Auden, John Updike, Anne Morrow Lindbergh and Marianne Moore. While much of what she published is not considered the best work of those poets, she tended to select their most accessible, uplifting poems and turned many of the top poets of her day into household names. She also published 70 of her own poems. 

Hoffman thought of herself as writing and publishing poetry that appealed directly to readers' emotions. She was dismayed by both the modernist tradition, whose lyrics reflected T.S. Eliot's injunction of impersonality, and by the confessional school that became increasingly popular in the later 50's, free verse by poets like Robert Lowell and Anne Sexton, which represented what Hoffman considered tabloid topics, like sexual abuse, insanity, alcoholism and suicide. Focusing primarily on domestic subjects, the poems Hoffman published were essentially conservative; they were designed to affirm rather than to disturb the reader's life and to illuminate the beauty rather than to reveal the horror or emptiness of the everyday. By the time she left L.H.J. in 1962, the style of poetry she favored was out of vogue, and poetry itself disappeared from women's magazines.



***

 

Throughout her life, however, she continued working quietly on her own verses - one of which her husband is having inscribed on a plaque under a cherry tree in a favorite grove on the Swarthmore campus. Written when she was 19, Hoffman imagines herself disappearing into nature like Daphne, the nymph who became a tree to escape Apollo and preserve her virginity. As the poem's loose girlish trimeter is abruptly truncated, we see it is language itself she conceives of as most alive, quivering in contradiction and poised for flight:

I have stood so long in this place

I have lost account of my face.

I have stared so long at this tree

I am grown blossomy.

In my branches, words

Bicker like birds.



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/25/magazine/25hoffman.html


Not a bad poem at all...but I really like the last two lines.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 25 18:47:26 2005
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 15:47:26 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal
Message-ID: <200512252322.jBPNM8rd042156@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

Is this an obituary? Did she just die?



----------
From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal
Date: Sun, Dec 25, 2005, 2:58 PM


Elizabeth McFarland Hoffman, the wife of Daniel Hoffman.



A short stint as a copywriter at an advertising agency was quickly followed
by a job as poetry editor at Scholastic, and then she became poetry editor
of Ladies' Home Journal, based at the time in Philadelphia. From 1948 to
1962 she published some 900 poems by authors like Maxine Kumin, Randall
Jarrell, W.H. Auden, John Updike, Anne Morrow Lindbergh and Marianne Moore.
While much of what she published is not considered the best work of those
poets, she tended to select their most accessible, uplifting poems and
turned many of the top poets of her day into household names. She also
published 70 of her own poems.

Hoffman thought of herself as writing and publishing poetry that appealed
directly to readers' emotions. She was dismayed by both the modernist
tradition, whose lyrics reflected T.S. Eliot's injunction of impersonality,
and by the confessional school that became increasingly popular in the later
50's, free verse by poets like Robert Lowell and Anne Sexton, which
represented what Hoffman considered tabloid topics, like sexual abuse,
insanity, alcoholism and suicide. Focusing primarily on domestic subjects,
the poems Hoffman published were essentially conservative; they were
designed to affirm rather than to disturb the reader's life and to
illuminate the beauty rather than to reveal the horror or emptiness of the
everyday. By the time she left L.H.J. in 1962, the style of poetry she
favored was out of vogue, and poetry itself disappeared from women's
magazines.



***



Throughout her life, however, she continued working quietly on her own
verses - one of which her husband is having inscribed on a plaque under a
cherry tree in a favorite grove on the Swarthmore campus. Written when she
was 19, Hoffman imagines herself disappearing into nature like Daphne, the
nymph who became a tree to escape Apollo and preserve her virginity. As the
poem's loose girlish trimeter is abruptly truncated, we see it is language
itself she conceives of as most alive, quivering in contradiction and poised
for flight:

I have stood so long in this place

I have lost account of my face.

I have stared so long at this tree

I am grown blossomy.

In my branches, words

Bicker like birds.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/25/magazine/25hoffman.html


Not a bad poem at all...but I really like the last two lines.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Dec 25 18:31:12 2005
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 18:31:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal
References: <200512252322.jBPNM8rd042156@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <026601c609ab$4ad15c10$6601a8c0@OldMoleExpress>

Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home JournalYeah. 

" In this issue, the latest in an annual tradition, The Times Magazine presents a public reckoning of the lives of 27 men and women who died in 2005."
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 6:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal


  Is this an obituary? Did she just die?



  ----------
  From: "TheOldMole" <tad at opus40.org>
  To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal
  Date: Sun, Dec 25, 2005, 2:58 PM



    Elizabeth McFarland Hoffman, the wife of Daniel Hoffman.
     
     

    A short stint as a copywriter at an advertising agency was quickly followed by a job as poetry editor at Scholastic, and then she became poetry editor of Ladies' Home Journal, based at the time in Philadelphia. From 1948 to 1962 she published some 900 poems by authors like Maxine Kumin, Randall Jarrell, W.H. Auden, John Updike, Anne Morrow Lindbergh and Marianne Moore. While much of what she published is not considered the best work of those poets, she tended to select their most accessible, uplifting poems and turned many of the top poets of her day into household names. She also published 70 of her own poems. 

    Hoffman thought of herself as writing and publishing poetry that appealed directly to readers' emotions. She was dismayed by both the modernist tradition, whose lyrics reflected T.S. Eliot's injunction of impersonality, and by the confessional school that became increasingly popular in the later 50's, free verse by poets like Robert Lowell and Anne Sexton, which represented what Hoffman considered tabloid topics, like sexual abuse, insanity, alcoholism and suicide. Focusing primarily on domestic subjects, the poems Hoffman published were essentially conservative; they were designed to affirm rather than to disturb the reader's life and to illuminate the beauty rather than to reveal the horror or emptiness of the everyday. By the time she left L.H.J. in 1962, the style of poetry she favored was out of vogue, and poetry itself disappeared from women's magazines. 

     

    *** 

     

    Throughout her life, however, she continued working quietly on her own verses - one of which her husband is having inscribed on a plaque under a cherry tree in a favorite grove on the Swarthmore campus. Written when she was 19, Hoffman imagines herself disappearing into nature like Daphne, the nymph who became a tree to escape Apollo and preserve her virginity. As the poem's loose girlish trimeter is abruptly truncated, we see it is language itself she conceives of as most alive, quivering in contradiction and poised for flight: 

    I have stood so long in this place 

    I have lost account of my face. 

    I have stared so long at this tree 

    I am grown blossomy. 

    In my branches, words 

    Bicker like birds.
     
     
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/25/magazine/25hoffman.html
     
     
    Not a bad poem at all...but I really like the last two lines.
     
     
    Tad Richards
    www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org> 
    http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Dec 25 22:12:38 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 22:12:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal
Message-ID: <299.2ce657c.30e0b9a6@cs.com>

In a message dated 12/25/2005 5:22:25 PM Central Standard Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: 
> 
> Is this an obituary? Did she just die?
> 
She died in the fall, not sure when.
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From ASurkont at localnet.com  Mon Dec 26 06:45:46 2005
From: ASurkont at localnet.com (Amanda Surkont)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 06:45:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Ladies' Home Journal
In-Reply-To: <024601c609a6$afc85240$6601a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
References: <024601c609a6$afc85240$6601a8c0@OldMoleExpress>
Message-ID: <43AFD7EA.2050908@localnet.com>

She died in May, I believe.  She paid for poetry, something like eight 
or ten dollars a line.
A good deal of money in those days. 

Best, manda


TheOldMole wrote:

> Elizabeth McFarland Hoffman, the wife of Daniel Hoffman.
>  
>  
>
> A short stint as a copywriter at an advertising agency was quickly 
> followed by a job as poetry editor at Scholastic, and then she became 
> poetry editor of Ladies' Home Journal, based at the time in 
> Philadelphia. From 1948 to 1962 she published some 900 poems by 
> authors like Maxine Kumin, Randall Jarrell, W.H. Auden, John Updike, 
> Anne Morrow Lindbergh and Marianne Moore. While much of what she 
> published is not considered the best work of those poets, she tended 
> to select their most accessible, uplifting poems and turned many of 
> the top poets of her day into household names. She also published 70 
> of her own poems.
>
> Hoffman thought of herself as writing and publishing poetry that 
> appealed directly to readers' emotions. She was dismayed by both the 
> modernist tradition, whose lyrics reflected T.S. Eliot's injunction of 
> impersonality, and by the confessional school that became increasingly 
> popular in the later 50's, free verse by poets like Robert Lowell and 
> Anne Sexton, which represented what Hoffman considered tabloid topics, 
> like sexual abuse, insanity, alcoholism and suicide. Focusing 
> primarily on domestic subjects, the poems Hoffman published were 
> essentially conservative; they were designed to affirm rather than to 
> disturb the reader's life and to illuminate the beauty rather than to 
> reveal the horror or emptiness of the everyday. By the time she left 
> L.H.J. in 1962, the style of poetry she favored was out of vogue, and 
> poetry itself disappeared from women's magazines.
>
>  
>
> ***
>
> Throughout her life, however, she continued working quietly on her own 
> verses - one of which her husband is having inscribed on a plaque 
> under a cherry tree in a favorite grove on the Swarthmore campus. 
> Written when she was 19, Hoffman imagines herself disappearing into 
> nature like Daphne, the nymph who became a tree to escape Apollo and 
> preserve her virginity. As the poem's loose girlish trimeter is 
> abruptly truncated, we see it is language itself she conceives of as 
> most alive, quivering in contradiction and poised for flight:
>
> I have stood so long in this place
>
> I have lost account of my face.
>
> I have stared so long at this tree
>
> I am grown blossomy.
>
> In my branches, words
>
> Bicker like birds.
>
>  
>  
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/25/magazine/25hoffman.html
>  
>  
> Not a bad poem at all...but I really like the last two lines.
>  
>  
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>  
>

-- 

http://www.friendsofbclist.org/fbclp12.htm

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From rsillima at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 26 09:25:57 2005
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 06:25:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog - from Franz Wright to Thomas Merton
Message-ID: <20051226142557.28365.qmail@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT POSTS

Thomas Merton and Jonathan Greene:
the nature of a correspondence

Sheila E. Murphy ?
Toward the Year 2006

A Christmas message from Franz Wright

Seth Abramson:
questions on the sociology of poetry
and the sociology of poetry blogs

Reed Bye ? Join the Planets
What is New York
about the New York school?

Semezdin Mehmedinovic
and Nine Alexandrias ?
seeing America through Bosnian eyes

The actor John Spencer ?
1946 ? 2005

Paul Hoover
on the Chicago Renaissance
and the role of the local

Naomi Watts -
the real story
of the new King Kong

In praise of Audrey Rein Elwood

The Village Voice and its list
of the 25 best books of 2005 ?
poets everywhere, but poetry
maybe not there at all

The New York Times 
annual list of notable books
continues to be dominated 
by the same few publishers

3-Iron by Ki-duk Kim,
a film in which the protagonists
almost never speak

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Dec 27 11:59:31 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:59:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review
Message-ID: <BFD6CF13.16E91%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A review of Billy Collins's new book up at the *Christian Science Monitor*:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1227/p16s01-bogn.html

Interestingly, this is a negative review from the perspective of someone who
admires Collins's previous work.  Plenty of reviewers love or hate what
Collins has been up to, but I'm not sure I've seen many that make
qualitative distinctions among his books from a sympathetic perspective.

For the most part I think the reviewer's right, personally.  Though I like
the book more than Elizabeth Lund does, the trouble with *The Trouble With
Poetry* is that overall it's not as strong as *Nine Horses* or *Picnic,
Lightning*.  

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Dec 27 14:45:18 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:45:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New and on View: Mudlark No. 30 (2006) 
Message-ID: <9f.6dc55e6a.30e2f3ce@aol.com>

Date:    Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:23:06 -0500
From:    "Slaughter, William" <wrs at UNF.EDU>
Subject: Notice: Mudlark

New and on View: Mudlark No. 30 (2006)

Anagrams of America | Mike Smith

Author's Note. Each of the poems in Anagrams of America is an anagram of
its source text. All of the letters of the source text have been used,
once and only once, in the composition of the corresponding poem. No
letters have been added and no letters have been left out. Many of the
sources are familiar works by familiar authors, and I have indicated below
each poem the text used. Unless otherwise indicated, titles, epigraphs,
section numbers, and section headings are not to be considered part of the
anagram.  -- MS

"Plan" is one of sixteen Anagrams of America. Start the new year early and
start it here... with Mudlark and Mike Smith, his Anagrams of America.


Plan

                               Those who write of the art of poetry
                   teach us that if we would write what may be worth
                   the reading, we ought always, before we begin, to
                   form a regular plan and design of our piece.
                                                    -- Ben Franklin

1.

To be separate, anonymous, silent,
yet not without real power or pride, say
the tact and driven mindset of software
giants, ex-hackers bailed out by the F.B.I.

Troubleshooters, key specialists
flown in to exact purpose yet no
further ado, then flown back home again.
One of the sought-after, needed, few.

2.

Bound by boundlessness, appalled
by applause, overreaching
in despair--The poet at home
in a prose nation. He weathers his vast,
unforgiven country like a storm.

3.

By jolt, by dint of play, Rex Eternity
can milk every almanac list, render moot
our daily reinvention of the sky.
Many may act. More cry out. Unnerving Time

4.

exists for our misuse. In it: loved lover
and icy stream are lost. View
the damage done in Limit's civic name.


_ The poem is an anagram of the four numbered sections
of Benjamin Franklin's "Plan for Future Conduct," Labaree et al., eds.,
The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, 40 vols. New Haven: Yale UP, 1959.

Mike Smith is a graduate of the University of North Carolina at
Greensboro, Hollins College, and the University of Notre Dame. His poems
have recently appeared in Carolina Quarterly, Hotel Amerika, North
American Review, Quarter After Eight, Notre Dame Review, Salt, DIAGRAM,
and Borderlands. A chapbook, SMALL INDUSTRY, is forthcoming from the South
Carolina Poetry Initiative.

Spread the word. Far and wide,

William Slaughter

MUDLARK
An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics
Never in and never out of print...
E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu
URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Dec 27 15:00:43 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:00:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Parameter #1 now online
Message-ID: <2cc.bc018b.30e2f76b@aol.com>

Date:    Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:47:27 +0000
From:    Tom Jenks <tomjenks at FSMAIL.NET>
Subject: Parameter #1 now online

In preparation for the launch of issue 2 in the Spring, Parameter #1 is now
fully online. If you're interested in poetry and prose by new writers
accompanied, we like to think, by a scintilla or two of je ne sais quoi,
then click on the Issues link at www.parametermagazine.org

Best wishes

Tom Jenks
Editor
Parameter Magazine
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Dec 27 16:40:04 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:40:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pattiann Rogers gets a Lannan
Message-ID: <d6.33eeaec3.30e30eb4@aol.com>

http://www.newwest.net/index.php/main/article/5011/
 
Colorado Poetry Champ
Colorado Poet Wins Prestigious Lannan Literary Award
By Jenny Shank, 12-27-05
 
 
As reported recently by Patti Thorn in the Rocky Mountain News ("Castle Rock 
poet a natural fit for prestigious prize"), Castle Rock poet Pattiann Rogers 
recently won the Lannan Literary Award, a prize of $125,000, which is about 
$125,000 more than most poets can expect to earn from their toils. This award 
honors Rogers' career achievement, but she's no stranger to national recognition: 
According to her bio on the Lannan Foundation website, she's previously 
racked up "two National Endowment for the Arts grants, a Guggenheim Award, the 
Tietjens Prize and the Hokin Prize from Poetry magazine, and four Pushcart 
Prizes." Her poetry trophy shelf must be groaning under the weight of all that booty.
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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Tue Dec 27 19:26:28 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:26:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New and on View: Mudlark No. 30 (2006)
Message-ID: <20051228002628.C4F4813CEA@smapp02.siteprotect.com>

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Dec 27 23:12:38 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (grahamd at ripon.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 04:12:38 UTC
Subject: [New-Poetry] hi, ive a new mail address
Message-ID: <9164eee7b.727e0a5a7@ripon.edu>

hey its me, my old address dont work at time. i dont know why?!
in the last days ive got some mails. i' think thaz your mails but im not sure!

plz read and check ...
cyaaaaaaa
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From William_Knott at emerson.edu  Wed Dec 28 10:25:31 2005
From: William_Knott at emerson.edu (William Knott)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:25:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] collins bap
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C3B@mail.emerson.edu>

Collins is a great poet and i've defended
him on this forum, but i think given the
current political situation, he's not the
right bapper for this year. . .  Olds, Hamill,
Amiri Baraka would have been better
choices.  Or bring back Adrienne Rich.







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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 10:55:15 2005
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 08:55:15 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] New and on View: Mudlark No. 30 (2006)
In-Reply-To: <9f.6dc55e6a.30e2f3ce@aol.com>
References: <9f.6dc55e6a.30e2f3ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <648208b60512280755j46d216c9w2a04e074281bc934@mail.gmail.com>

That server (www.unf.edu/) seems to be down.

- Jim

On 12/27/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
>  Date:    Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:23:06 -0500
> From:    "Slaughter, William" <wrs at UNF.EDU>
> Subject: Notice: Mudlark
>
> New and on View: Mudlark No. 30 (2006)
>
> Anagrams of America | Mike Smith
>
> Author's Note. Each of the poems in Anagrams of America is an anagram of
> its source text. All of the letters of the source text have been used,
> once and only once, in the composition of the corresponding poem. No
> letters have been added and no letters have been left out. Many of the
> sources are familiar works by familiar authors, and I have indicated below
> each poem the text used. Unless otherwise indicated, titles, epigraphs,
> section numbers, and section headings are not to be considered part of the
> anagram.  -- MS
>
> "Plan" is one of sixteen Anagrams of America. Start the new year early and
> start it here... with Mudlark and Mike Smith, his Anagrams of America.
>
>
> Plan
>
>                                Those who write of the art of poetry
>                    teach us that if we would write what may be worth
>                    the reading, we ought always, before we begin, to
>                    form a regular plan and design of our piece.
>                                                     -- Ben Franklin
>
> 1.
>
> To be separate, anonymous, silent,
> yet not without real power or pride, say
> the tact and driven mindset of software
> giants, ex-hackers bailed out by the F.B.I.
>
> Troubleshooters, key specialists
> flown in to exact purpose yet no
> further ado, then flown back home again.
> One of the sought-after, needed, few.
>
> 2.
>
> Bound by boundlessness, appalled
> by applause, overreaching
> in despair--The poet at home
> in a prose nation. He weathers his vast,
> unforgiven country like a storm.
>
> 3.
>
> By jolt, by dint of play, Rex Eternity
> can milk every almanac list, render moot
> our daily reinvention of the sky.
> Many may act. More cry out. Unnerving Time
>
> 4.
>
> exists for our misuse. In it: loved lover
> and icy stream are lost. View
> the damage done in Limit's civic name.
>
>
> _ The poem is an anagram of the four numbered sections
> of Benjamin Franklin's "Plan for Future Conduct," Labaree et al., eds.,
> The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, 40 vols. New Haven: Yale UP, 1959.
>
> Mike Smith is a graduate of the University of North Carolina at
> Greensboro, Hollins College, and the University of Notre Dame. His poems
> have recently appeared in Carolina Quarterly, Hotel Amerika, North
> American Review, Quarter After Eight, Notre Dame Review, Salt, DIAGRAM,
> and Borderlands. A chapbook, SMALL INDUSTRY, is forthcoming from the South
> Carolina Poetry Initiative.
>
> Spread the word. Far and wide,
>
> William Slaughter
>
> MUDLARK
> An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics
> Never in and never out of print...
> E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu
> URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>



From rsillima at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 28 11:00:03 2005
From: rsillima at yahoo.com (Ron Silliman)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 08:00:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] International Dada Month ... in Kansas (+ Roy Fisher)
Message-ID: <20051228160003.42659.qmail@web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What's not the matter with Kansas? The answer continues to be
Lawrence.

http://tinyurl.com/czqbw

and

http://tinyurl.com/cpw2s

and, a review of Roy Fisher's Collected

http://tinyurl.com/csrbl

Using tinyURL so that you don't have to paste together long codes
into your address boxes.

Ron


From rog3r.day at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 11:37:24 2005
From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (Roger Day)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:37:24 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] collins bap
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C3B@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D09529C3B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <fde503480512280837i185b7e27qa65efccedc101eaa@mail.gmail.com>

I thought J.P.Richardson was the Big Bopper?

On 12/28/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:
> Collins is a great poet and i've defended
> him on this forum, but i think given the
> current political situation, he's not the
> right bapper for this year. . .  Olds, Hamill,
> Amiri Baraka would have been better
> choices.  Or bring back Adrienne Rich.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--
http://www.badstep.net/
http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Dec 28 11:41:33 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:41:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fake email not mine
Message-ID: <BFD81C5C.16EE3%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Just to let the list know:  I see that my spam-catcher has caught a NewPo
message purportedly from me.  It's not.  The subject head was "hi, ive a new
email address."  

If this shows up on the list, I wouldn't open it, or any attachments in it.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Dec 29 14:11:40 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:11:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the crapper
Message-ID: <96.34ddb561.30e58eec@aol.com>

Toilet Door Poems will commission 6 emerging poets and 6 visual designers, to 
create 6 posters for display on the backs toilet doors during April 2006, in 
domestic Qantas terminals, and Greater Union cinemas, in Sydney and nationally.
The project will also commission 1 poet to write a mini-essay about an aspect 
of poetry in the public space, to be published online at 
www.redroomorganisation.org and presented publicity, at the project's launch.

The poems will be displayed for the duration of APRIL 2006, in these spaces, 
thanks to the support from ?The Letter Corporation, The City of Sydney and The 
John Butler Foundation's 'social activisim through the arts' fund.

Our design partners, DesignWorks Enterprise IG, will co-ordinate the 
selection of artists and art design, introducing a strong collaborative element 
between the poet and the artist.

Selected poets will be recorded reading their poems for a red room radio, 
broadcast via the national community radio satellite.

The poems will replace advertising with poetry and art by emerging Australian 
poets and artists in spaces that are both very public, and uniquely private.

Each illustrated poem will explore and interpret a theme of social, 
political, cultural and creative relevance to each poet and designer, offering a 
balance between creative excellence and a social aware art for the public, humorous 
and serious at once.

SUBMISSIONS open on DECEMBER 1 2005 and close JANUARY 23 2006

Conditions of entry for poets
Poems can?t have been previously published.
Poets selected for the project will be emerging poets, that means no more 
than one book (chap books excluded) of poetry previously published.
Poems remain the exclusive copyright of red room company until project 
completion and future publication must acknowledge previous publication in this 
project.
Poems submitted must include poet contact details
Poets must be Australian residents
Poems can be sent via email or hard copy to The Red Room Company PO box 1389 
Darlinghurst, NSW 1300
Poems must reach us by the 23rd January 2006

Conditions of entry for artists
Artists selected for the project will be emerging artists, that means not as 
famous as John Olsen.

Art works remain the exclusive copyright of red room company until project 
completion and future publication must acknowledge previous publication in this 
project.

Works submitted must include poet contact details
Artists must be Australian residents
An example of previous art work must fit into an A4 envelope (CDs, 
photographs, photocopies accepted) to

The Red Room Company PO box 1389 Darlinghurst, NSW 1300
Artworks must reach us by the 13th January 2006
Artists will be contacted separately, details here soon.

Selection committee
Poem and art selection committee will include an emerging and established 
poet. Also involved in the selection process will be a representative from the 
John Butler Foundation and The City of Sydney

Warning
Please don't submit poems built on toilet humour unless they are outstanding
The selected poems will aim to explore issues of social, political, cultural 
and creative relevance to broad audience.

Further detailsPlease contact johanna at redroomorganisation.org 
posted by Andrew at 2:39 PM Comments by Squawkbox.tv - No comments yet 0 
comments   
posted by Andrew at 2:39 PM Comments by Squawkbox.tv - No comments yet 0 
comments   
Toilet Door Poetry Opportunity :-) 
Dear Poets and writers and visual artists,
Submissions are now open for the 2006 Toilet Door poetry project.
Six emerging poets and artists are wanted to create illustrated
poem posters for exhibition on the back of toilet doors in Qantas
domestic terminals, greater union and village cinemas, nationally
in April 2006.

Please see attached PDF for details [try the link below].


Happy summer swims,


Johanna
Johanna Featherstone
The Red Room Company
www.redroomorganisation.org
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Dec 29 15:05:59 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:05:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] mobius on the move
Message-ID: <21d.59702e2.30e59ba7@aol.com>

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1863&dept_id=152670&newsid=15834796&PAG
=461&rfi=9
 
A small literary magazine launched in Michigan in 1982 took the figure 
immortalized by M.C. Escher as its name. In January, MOBIUS, The Poetry Magazine 
will move to Queens, and the new editor, a poet herself, can?t help but be 
inspired by the strip?s imagery.  
   Juanita Torrence-Thompson intends to maintain the continuous ribbon of 
publishing poetry from New York, nationwide and abroad when the magazine moves to 
Flushing in the new year.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 29 15:37:30 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:37:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the crapper
In-Reply-To: <96.34ddb561.30e58eec@aol.com>
References: <96.34ddb561.30e58eec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D9405545-8817-467A-84FB-CD5C7DA4B7D3@earthlink.net>

I've got the first line of one already!

	"Here I sit broken-hearted"

I'll let you know when I've worked
out the second line.

Hal

On Dec 29, 2005, at 2:11 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Toilet Door Poems will commission 6 emerging poets and 6 visual  
> designers, to create 6 posters for display on the backs toilet  
> doors during April 2006, in domestic Qantas terminals, and Greater  
> Union cinemas, in Sydney and nationally.
> The project will also commission 1 poet to write a mini-essay about  
> an aspect of poetry in the public space, to be published online at  
> www.redroomorganisation.org and presented publicity, at the  
> project's launch.
>
> The poems will be displayed for the duration of APRIL 2006, in  
> these spaces, thanks to the support from ?The Letter Corporation,  
> The City of Sydney and The John Butler Foundation's 'social  
> activisim through the arts' fund.
>
> Our design partners, DesignWorks Enterprise IG, will co-ordinate  
> the selection of artists and art design, introducing a strong  
> collaborative element between the poet and the artist.
>
> Selected poets will be recorded reading their poems for a red room  
> radio, broadcast via the national community radio satellite.
>
> The poems will replace advertising with poetry and art by emerging  
> Australian poets and artists in spaces that are both very public,  
> and uniquely private.
>
> Each illustrated poem will explore and interpret a theme of social,  
> political, cultural and creative relevance to each poet and  
> designer, offering a balance between creative excellence and a  
> social aware art for the public, humorous and serious at once.
>
> SUBMISSIONS open on DECEMBER 1 2005 and close JANUARY 23 2006
>
> Conditions of entry for poets
> Poems can?t have been previously published.
> Poets selected for the project will be emerging poets, that means  
> no more than one book (chap books excluded) of poetry previously  
> published.
> Poems remain the exclusive copyright of red room company until  
> project completion and future publication must acknowledge previous  
> publication in this project.
> Poems submitted must include poet contact details
> Poets must be Australian residents
> Poems can be sent via email or hard copy to The Red Room Company PO  
> box 1389 Darlinghurst, NSW 1300
> Poems must reach us by the 23rd January 2006
>
> Conditions of entry for artists
> Artists selected for the project will be emerging artists, that  
> means not as famous as John Olsen.
>
> Art works remain the exclusive copyright of red room company until  
> project completion and future publication must acknowledge previous  
> publication in this project.
>
> Works submitted must include poet contact details
> Artists must be Australian residents
> An example of previous art work must fit into an A4 envelope (CDs,  
> photographs, photocopies accepted) to
>
> The Red Room Company PO box 1389 Darlinghurst, NSW 1300
> Artworks must reach us by the 13th January 2006
> Artists will be contacted separately, details here soon.
>
> Selection committee
> Poem and art selection committee will include an emerging and  
> established poet. Also involved in the selection process will be a  
> representative from the John Butler Foundation and The City of Sydney
>
> Warning
> Please don't submit poems built on toilet humour unless they are  
> outstanding
> The selected poems will aim to explore issues of social, political,  
> cultural and creative relevance to broad audience.
>
> Further detailsPlease contact johanna at redroomorganisation.org
> posted by Andrew at 2:39 PM Comments by Squawkbox.tv - No comments  
> yet 0 comments
>
> posted by Andrew at 2:39 PM Comments by Squawkbox.tv - No comments  
> yet 0 comments
>
> Toilet Door Poetry Opportunity :-)
>
> Dear Poets and writers and visual artists,
> Submissions are now open for the 2006 Toilet Door poetry project.
> Six emerging poets and artists are wanted to create illustrated
> poem posters for exhibition on the back of toilet doors in Qantas
> domestic terminals, greater union and village cinemas, nationally
> in April 2006.
>
> Please see attached PDF for details [try the link below].
>
>
> Happy summer swims,
>
>
> Johanna
> Johanna Featherstone
> The Red Room Company
> www.redroomorganisation.org
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Hal        "I can see that you are the kind of young man who
                is accustomed to winning arguments."
                              --Gertrude Stein to Mortimer Adler

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com



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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Dec 29 15:51:18 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:51:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the crapper
Message-ID: <005101c60cb9$a08fcea0$03af3252@ANNY>

MUSEION & NUOVO TEATRO COMUNALE con iniziativa comune: MUSEION on StageI've got the pic, see enclosed, but _they_ might be as famous as Olsen, thus should find some_thing else,

I might suggest a second line:

Here I sit and Here I watch
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Dec 29 16:47:34 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:47:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the crapper
Message-ID: <2c4.12fea3e.30e5b376@aol.com>

Hal, you're not eligible because your not an Oz poet.
I just found out the Coriolus Effect does not always
cause water (& such) to rotate down the drainhole clockwise
downunder. (Nor always counterclockwise in the Northern
Hemisphere.) 
Finnegan

In a message dated 12/29/2005 3:37:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:
I've got the first line of one already!  


"Here I sit broken-hearted"


I'll let you know when I've worked
out the second line.


Hal


On Dec 29, 2005, at 2:11 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:


Toilet Door Poems
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Dec 29 17:32:13 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:32:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <fa.22708f8f.30e5bded@aol.com>

letter writer takes issue with typical MFA bashing
http://www.poetrymagazine.org/letters/index.html

memories of dad Hugh Kenner and musings on rap and poetry
http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/1205/comment_176084.html
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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 18:11:02 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:11:02 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
In-Reply-To: <fa.22708f8f.30e5bded@aol.com>
References: <fa.22708f8f.30e5bded@aol.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512291511lb1d30bcj4223fa8c063a8e84@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/29/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> memories of dad Hugh Kenner and musings on rap and poetry
> http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/1205/comment_176084.html

Interesting. I don't know that I buy a lot of his assertions about rap
and hip-hop completely (being able to write 20,000 words about
something says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work being
written about, though it might say a lot about the writer) but I do
think he's right that there's some interesting stuff going on there,
particularly with regards to poetics, politics, and orality.

The picture of Hugh Kenner (who is one of my heros) watching Outkast
doing "Hey Ya" is one I'm unlikely to forget :)

c



From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 18:56:26 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:56:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0512291511lb1d30bcj4223fa8c063a8e84@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fa.22708f8f.30e5bded@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0512291511lb1d30bcj4223fa8c063a8e84@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512291556m51b84d5re1d1ef6280818fb2@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting points re rap and hip hop.  I've been a fan of MF DOOM (he
always spells it in all caps) for awhile now, and I can't help myself from
liking Paul Barman's ridiculous raps.

There are some interesting things going in the world of rap.  Does anyone
know of a guy who calls himself Sage Francis?

Jeff Newberry


On 12/29/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/29/05, JforJames at aol.com <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:
> > memories of dad Hugh Kenner and musings on rap and poetry
> > http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/1205/comment_176084.html
>
> Interesting. I don't know that I buy a lot of his assertions about rap
> and hip-hop completely (being able to write 20,000 words about
> something says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work being
> written about, though it might say a lot about the writer) but I do
> think he's right that there's some interesting stuff going on there,
> particularly with regards to poetics, politics, and orality.
>
> The picture of Hugh Kenner (who is one of my heros) watching Outkast
> doing "Hey Ya" is one I'm unlikely to forget :)
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Thu Dec 29 20:22:37 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:22:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <2ca.10f2652.30e5e5dd@aol.com>

 
I enjoyed Kenner's article although hip hop ain't my hting. I really  enjoyed 
Dargie Anderson's response to hte MFA bashing that has become almost a  
reflex by some, even, in some cases by those who have made their livings  teaching 
in MFA programs. I remember sitting in the audience about fifteen years  ago 
listening to Mark Strand, a man who has pretty much made his entire living  off 
the creative writing industry, railing against workshops. As a good MC would  
say, "Time to keep it real, homeboy."
 
In a message dated 12/29/2005 6:56:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes:

Interesting points re rap and hip hop.  I've been a fan of MF DOOM  (he 
always spells it in all caps) for awhile now, and I can't help myself from  liking 
Paul Barman's ridiculous raps.  
 
There are some interesting things going in the world of rap.  Does  anyone 
know of a guy who calls himself Sage Francis?
 
Jeff Newberry


On 12/29/05, Chris  Lott <_chris.lott at gmail.com_ 
(mailto:chris.lott at gmail.com) > wrote:  
On  12/29/05, _JforJames at aol.com_ (mailto:JforJames at aol.com)  <_  
JforJames at aol.com_ (mailto:JforJames at aol.com) > wrote:
> memories of dad Hugh Kenner and  musings on rap and poetry
> _http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/1205/comment_176084.html  _ 
(http://www.poetrymagazine.org/magazine/1205/comment_176084.html) 

Interesting. I don't know that I buy a lot of his assertions  about rap
and hip-hop completely (being able to write 20,000 words  about
something says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work  being 
written about, though it might say a lot about the writer) but I  do
think he's right that there's some interesting stuff going on  there,
particularly with regards to poetics, politics, and  orality.

The picture of Hugh Kenner (who is one of my heros) watching  Outkast 
doing "Hey Ya" is one I'm unlikely to forget  :)

c

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry  mailing list
_New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  _ (mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) 
_http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry_ 
(http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry) 





-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but  death."  
--Miguel de Unamuno




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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 04:25:21 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:25:21 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0512291556m51b84d5re1d1ef6280818fb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fa.22708f8f.30e5bded@aol.com>
	<9b1b9dab0512291511lb1d30bcj4223fa8c063a8e84@mail.gmail.com>
	<731bb17a0512291556m51b84d5re1d1ef6280818fb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512300125m7cd0a94apcb750476c28f8de8@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/29/05, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:
> There are some interesting things going in the world of rap.  Does anyone
> know of a guy who calls himself Sage Francis?

Definitely-- I have 3 or 4 of his albums... there's also some
interesting stuff in the "abstract" hip-hop realm.

c



From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 08:47:46 2005
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 08:47:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
In-Reply-To: <2ca.10f2652.30e5e5dd@aol.com>
References: <2ca.10f2652.30e5e5dd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0512300547u24be71casf8a6e82c9028ed16@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/29/05, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  I really enjoyed Dargie Anderson's response to hte MFA bashing that has
> become almost a reflex by some, even, in some cases by those who have made
> their livings teaching in MFA programs. I remember sitting in the audience
> about fifteen years ago listening to Mark Strand, a man who has pretty much
> made his entire living off the creative writing industry, railing against
> workshops. As a good MC would say, "Time to keep it real, homeboy."
>

So, so true. I had exactly the same response.  For me taking part in an MFA
program was simply a way to get some patronage, take a break from working
for newspapers, spend more time on my writing and reading, and meet other
writers.  I didn't know anyone who was expecting "glamour" or instant
success, and was always a bit amused/mystified by some of the older more
established writers I met who made their livings entirely within the MFA
industry, who seemed very attached to the idea of glamour and fame, and yet
who felt the need to deliver these lectures.  A bit of projection maybe?

There are lots of ways of making a living out there-- nobody *has* to teach
workshops if they really hate them.

--Suzanne
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 30 09:57:34 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:57:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the crapper
In-Reply-To: <2c4.12fea3e.30e5b376@aol.com>
References: <2c4.12fea3e.30e5b376@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B3DD26F0-6393-43DF-A025-9B3C101EC46C@earthlink.net>

Damn! And my second line was almost finished.

On Dec 29, 2005, at 4:47 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Hal, you're not eligible because your not an Oz poet.
> I just found out the Coriolus Effect does not always
> cause water (& such) to rotate down the drainhole clockwise
> downunder. (Nor always counterclockwise in the Northern
> Hemisphere.)
> Finnegan
>
> In a message dated 12/29/2005 3:37:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
> halvard at earthlink.net writes:
> I've got the first line of one already!
>
> "Here I sit broken-hearted"
>
> I'll let you know when I've worked
> out the second line.
>
> Hal
>
> On Dec 29, 2005, at 2:11 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Toilet Door Poems
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Hal        Not responsible for typographical errors.

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com



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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 10:14:12 2005
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:14:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0512300547u24be71casf8a6e82c9028ed16@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2ca.10f2652.30e5e5dd@aol.com>
	<aa458fec0512300547u24be71casf8a6e82c9028ed16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0512300714h14ed863ai44455ed046bd2a3e@mail.gmail.com>

Suzanne, et al,

I feel the same way.  Before returning to school to work on my degree, I
asked myself two questions:

1) Why are you doing this?

2)  What do you expect to get out of it?

My answers were simple:

1)  I want the degree.  It will help me in my career.  I don't teach
creative writing currently; but the degree am seeking is a Ph.D with a
Creative Writing focus.  Having the Ph.D will get my foot in the door at a
lot of places, either for teaching lit or writing.

2)  I expect to get four years of writing and study time.

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, I didn't picture a 4-year
period of wine swilling, back-slapping, and brown nosing publishers.  I have
networked a bit, but not nearly as much as I have thorugh other means
(NewPoetry, for example).

Jeff Newberry


On 12/30/05, Suzanne Burns <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 12/29/05, AlMaginnes at aol.com <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >  I really enjoyed Dargie Anderson's response to hte MFA bashing that has
> > become almost a reflex by some, even, in some cases by those who have made
> > their livings teaching in MFA programs. I remember sitting in the audience
> > about fifteen years ago listening to Mark Strand, a man who has pretty much
> > made his entire living off the creative writing industry, railing against
> > workshops. As a good MC would say, "Time to keep it real, homeboy."
> >
>
> So, so true. I had exactly the same response.  For me taking part in an
> MFA program was simply a way to get some patronage, take a break from
> working for newspapers, spend more time on my writing and reading, and meet
> other writers.  I didn't know anyone who was expecting "glamour" or instant
> success, and was always a bit amused/mystified by some of the older more
> established writers I met who made their livings entirely within the MFA
> industry, who seemed very attached to the idea of glamour and fame, and yet
> who felt the need to deliver these lectures.  A bit of projection maybe?
>
> There are lots of ways of making a living out there-- nobody *has* to
> teach workshops if they really hate them.
>
> --Suzanne
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


--
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                   --Miguel de Unamuno

Blog:  http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Dec 30 10:15:38 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:15:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <20051230151538.A0A432EC014@smapp01.siteprotect.com>

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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Dec 30 10:18:13 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:18:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <155.5e5d0921.30e6a9b5@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/29/2005 6:56:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes:
Interesting points re rap and hip hop.  I've been a fan of MF DOOM (he always 
spells it in all caps) for awhile now, and I can't help myself from liking 
Paul Barman's ridiculous raps.  

There are some interesting things going in the world of rap.  Does anyone 
know of a guy who calls himself Sage Francis?

Jeff Newberry
http://www.hasidicreggae.com/index.php?section=article&album_id=0&id=1

I heard this Hasidic rapper Matisyahu on the radio last week. Pretty
def stuff. I notice from the bio that he's from West Chester PA....which
is the home of the annual formalist conference, isn't it? Must be something
about the water thereabouts that causes a predilection for rhyming.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Dec 30 10:21:16 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:21:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <2c6.139461b.30e6aa6c@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/29/2005 8:23:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
AlMaginnes at aol.com writes:
remember sitting in the audience about fifteen years ago listening to Mark 
Strand, a man who has pretty much made his entire living off the creative 
writing industry, railing against workshops. As a good MC would say, "Time to keep 
it real, homeboy."
It seems even the insiders have a need to make themselves out as outsiders.
Finnegan
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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Dec 30 10:22:38 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:22:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <20051230152238.837422EC014@smapp01.siteprotect.com>

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From opus40-01 at opus40.org  Fri Dec 30 10:25:58 2005
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org (opus40-01 at opus40.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:25:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <20051230152558.3E26913D00@smapp04.siteprotect.com>

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Dec 30 10:31:38 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:31:38 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
References: <20051230152558.3E26913D00@smapp04.siteprotect.com>
Message-ID: <00a401c60d56$206de7a0$bc8d3052@ANNY>

Nay Tad,

I got it bright and clear, and I agree with every word,
take care, Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: opus40-01 at opus40.org 
  To: 'NewPoetry at smapp04.chicago.hostway.net : Contemporary Poetry News &Views' 
  Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website



  That's weird. I just responded to Jeff's last note, but all I see, opening my note, is Jeff's original, and not my response. Does everyone else see it the same way?



  Tad









------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Dec 30 10:34:13 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:34:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quote for the New Year
Message-ID: <259.473418d.30e6ad75@aol.com>

In order to understand the language of the inspired it is necessary to be 
inspired oneself. Without which all that we say about the obscure and 
inconceivable is for us only words without ideas. It is as if they said nothing to us.? ?
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
 
(quoted in the introduction to Rousseau's Discourse on the Origin of 
Inequality, translated by Donald A. Cress.)
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Dec 30 10:37:51 2005
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:37:51 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <df.22f8cc27.30e6ae4f@aol.com>

Perhaps there is a 'bad word' filter at work in the cyberbackground.

In a message dated 12/30/2005 10:32:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
Nay Tad,

I got it bright and clear, and I agree with every word,
take care, Anny
----- Original Message ----- 
From: opus40-01 at opus40.org 
To: 'NewPoetry at smapp04.chicago.hostway.net : Contemporary Poetry News &Views' 
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website



That's weird. I just responded to Jeff's last note, but all I see, opening my 
note, is Jeff's original, and not my response. Does everyone else see it the 
same way?
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Dec 30 10:47:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:47:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quote for the New Year
References: <259.473418d.30e6ad75@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00cd01c60d58$63deb260$bc8d3052@ANNY>

Thanks for this James, that is why you can understand me,


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:34 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Quote for the New Year


  In order to understand the language of the inspired it is necessary to be inspired oneself. Without which all that we say about the obscure and inconceivable is for us only words without ideas. It is as if they said nothing to us.? ?Jean-Jacques Rousseau

   

  (quoted in the introduction to Rousseau's Discourse on the Origin of Inequality, translated by Donald A. Cress.)



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Dec 30 10:28:01 2005
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:28:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
References: <20051230151538.A0A432EC014@smapp01.siteprotect.com>
Message-ID: <004501c60d59$d5176b10$3eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

You know, I wonder how many "eminent" American poets did not go through an MFA program.  And how many of the poets I consider undervalued did.  And what one might suspect from the probable answer.

--Bob G. 
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From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 11:41:26 2005
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:41:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
In-Reply-To: <20051230152238.837422EC014@smapp01.siteprotect.com>
References: <20051230152238.837422EC014@smapp01.siteprotect.com>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0512300841w275b0ac9hc4b84a29c028c19c@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/30/05, opus40-01 at opus40.org <opus40-01 at opus40.org> wrote:

> Forty years and a couple of dozen books later, not having an MFA caused me
> to be passed over for a job that should have been rightfully mine.
>


Ouch, that hurts.  But there is just no logic to it.  I know poets who have
the books, degrees, and the awards (including one who was nominated for a
National Book Award) and have had a very hard time finding employment;  I
can think of several poets who have only MA degrees and who are teaching at
very prominent universities, etc.

I never went in with any idea that I was acquiring a marketable degree.  I
just wanted time to write and an excuse to spend my summers travelling
(funded by student loan money of course).

Ironically though in my current career as a technical editor, my degreehas
shown actual measurable value-- my current job required an MA in "technical
writing or a related field" and my boss was willing to say to her boss
"Writing is writing".  It got me hired and I would not have been hired
without it-- and it significantly bumped up my salary.  So I can honestly
say that my degree paid for itself (not that I paid anything for that degree
anyway-- I took out loans only to finance travel and otehr adventures.
Tuition was waived, and at SU I got fellowship money.)

As for the argument that you don't need a writing program to write: its
brings up class issues for me.  I remeber talking to one of my teachers
before embarking on my MFA and she threw up her hands and said "Why not just
go off someplace and write?"  To which I replied "And live on whose money?"
Some of us don't have trust funds or moneyed spouses or leisured lifestyles
or a private home on an island somewhere.  Fellowships, loans, generous
vacations, and the opportunity to hang onto your cheap student health
insurance while you travel through Turkey meeting Kurdish poets actually can
make some big things possible.  For me that was the only reason to go to
graduate school-- I have never regretted it.

Suzanne
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Dec 30 12:10:45 2005
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:10:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA tales
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0512300841w275b0ac9hc4b84a29c028c19c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFDAC635.16F9E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 12/30/05 10:41 AM, Suzanne Burns at queenmouse at gmail.com wrote:

As for the argument that you don't need a writing program to write: its
brings up class issues for me.  I remeber talking to one of my teachers
before embarking on my MFA and she threw up her hands and said "Why not just
go off someplace and write?"  To which I replied "And live on whose money?"
Some of us don't have trust funds or moneyed spouses or leisured lifestyles
or a private home on an island somewhere.  Fellowships, loans, generous
vacations, and the opportunity to hang onto your cheap student health
insurance while you travel through Turkey meeting Kurdish poets actually can
make some big things possible.  For me that was the only reason to go to
graduate school-- I have never regretted it.

Suzanne
-----------------------------------

I do wonder how often equivalent arguments occur with other fields-- do
accountants sit around and dis the degree they all have?  Do lawyers
regularly lecture each other about how one can learn a lot about law without
going to law school?  Do magazines like *Harper's* run pieces critiquing
what music schools are up to?

In any case, there are many good reasons to go for an MFA, and no doubt some
bad ones, but it's a free country.

My own experience (University of Massachusetts, MFA 1980) was fairly
positive, though the weakest part of the program by far was the actual
workshops.  With some notable exceptions, they were loosely arranged at
best, and not much teaching occurred; the unspoken assumption seemed to be
that workshops were 3 easy credits to rack up while opening up some valuable
writing time.  Certainly many professors did not treat them as serious
educational events.  But even that varied (and no doubt varies still) from
program to program, and professor to professor.

For me the writing community was invaluable, as was the time to write.  And
I wanted the guild card of a "terminal" degree for a planned career in
teaching, which I was lucky enough to pull off (landing a job with "only" an
MFA has never been easy, I don't think).  The degree also gave me on-the-job
training as a teacher, not an inconsiderable benefit despite the lousy pay.

(Unlike Mark Strand, too, I have put my education to use by teaching
freshman composition every year since I started teaching--it's always good,
in these debates, to remember that not everyone goes to or teaches at the
Iowa Writers Workshop.)

Most valuable to me, at every level, were the graduate courses that many of
my peers hated or didn't take very seriously, the scholarly classes on
literature and theory.  One reason I chose UMass was that they required more
such course work than many programs.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From queenmouse at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 12:26:27 2005
From: queenmouse at gmail.com (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:26:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA tales
In-Reply-To: <BFDAC635.16F9E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <aa458fec0512300841w275b0ac9hc4b84a29c028c19c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFDAC635.16F9E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <aa458fec0512300926w300c1545n95f804ca88b7c6d6@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/30/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>
> I do wonder how often equivalent arguments occur with other fields-- do
> accountants sit around and dis the degree they all have?  Do lawyers
> regularly lecture each other about how one can learn a lot about law without
> going to law school?  Do magazines like *Harper's* run pieces critiquing
> what music schools are up to?


Good point.  I have to say I never hear this argument among visual artists--
most artists I know have been very eager to study and learn and looked at
their classes as a great opportunity.  This argument does seem to be a
creative writing thing.

My own experience (University of Massachusetts, MFA 1980) was fairly
> positive, though the weakest part of the program by far was the actual
> workshops.  With some notable exceptions, they were loosely arranged at
> best, and not much teaching occurred; the unspoken assumption seemed to be
> that workshops were 3 easy credits to rack up while opening up some valuable
> writing time.  Certainly many professors did not treat them as serious
> educational events.  But even that varied (and no doubt varies still) from
> program to program, and professor to professor.


I went to UMass for one year before transferring to Syracuse University
(mostly for financial reasons, which at that time were kind of crucial for
me) and loved it largely because the faculty was supportive of just about
anything I wanted to do creatively, and my classmates really were
extraordinaryily dedicated writers.  The workshops were fine, though I would
agree not very rigorous-- what I really loved was simply the luxury of time
to write and take classes in subjects I wanted to study, and the chance to
find my community-- for a lot of writers, this is the opportunity to meet
other writers, and connect with friends-- people with whom you can exchange
work and talk about what you are doing and who you know will really care
about the work and come from a place of some knowledge.

Most valuable to me, at every level, were the graduate courses that many of
> my peers hated or didn't take very seriously, the scholarly classes on
> literature and theory.  One reason I chose UMass was that they required more
> such course work than many programs.


I think UMass is really exceptional in that regard. :-)

Suzanne
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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Fri Dec 30 13:02:59 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:02:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA tales
Message-ID: <19c.42bb8cfa.30e6d053@aol.com>

 
I agree, David. I teach at a two year school and perhaps a quarter to a  
third of my workload is creative writing. I teach comp, literature, and  
everything in between. And I enjoy it immensely. I'm pretty sure I've never  heard a 
doctor dis his medical degree.
 
 
In a message dated 12/30/2005 12:12:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


As for the argument that you don't need a writing program to  write: its 
brings up class issues for me.  I remeber talking to one of  my teachers before 
embarking on my MFA and she threw up her hands and said  "Why not just go off 
someplace and write?"  To which I replied "And  live on whose money?"  Some of 
us don't have trust funds or moneyed  spouses or leisured lifestyles or a 
private home on an island somewhere.  Fellowships, loans, generous vacations, and 
the opportunity to hang  onto your cheap student health insurance while you 
travel through Turkey  meeting Kurdish poets actually can make some big things 
possible.  For  me that was the only reason to go to graduate school-- I have 
never  regretted  it.

Suzanne

-----------------------------------

I  do wonder how often equivalent arguments occur with other fields-- do  
accountants sit around and dis the degree they all have?  Do lawyers  regularly 
lecture each other about how one can learn a lot about law without  going to 
law school?  Do magazines like *Harper's* run pieces critiquing  what music 
schools are up to?  

In any case, there are many good  reasons to go for an MFA, and no doubt some 
bad ones, but it's a free country.  

My own experience (University of Massachusetts, MFA 1980) was  fairly 
positive, though the weakest part of the program by far was the actual  workshops.  
With some notable exceptions, they were loosely arranged at  best, and not much 
teaching occurred; the unspoken assumption seemed to be  that workshops were 
3 easy credits to rack up while opening up some valuable  writing time.  
Certainly many professors did not treat them as serious  educational events.  But 
even that varied (and no doubt varies still)  from program to program, and 
professor to professor.  

For me the  writing community was invaluable, as was the time to write.  And 
I wanted  the guild card of a "terminal" degree for a planned career in 
teaching, which  I was lucky enough to pull off (landing a job with "only" an MFA 
has never  been easy, I don't think).  The degree also gave me on-the-job 
training  as a teacher, not an inconsiderable benefit despite the lousy pay.  

(Unlike Mark Strand, too, I have put my education to use by  teaching 
freshman composition every year since I started teaching--it's always  good, in these 
debates, to remember that not everyone goes to or teaches at  the Iowa 
Writers Workshop.)

Most valuable to me, at every level, were  the graduate courses that many of 
my peers hated or didn't take very  seriously, the scholarly classes on 
literature and theory.  One reason I  chose UMass was that they required more such 
course work than many programs.  






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From AlMaginnes at aol.com  Fri Dec 30 13:04:47 2005
From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:04:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA tales
Message-ID: <25b.47384d0.30e6d0bf@aol.com>

I went to Arkansas, which is a 60 hour program and requires fifteen hours  of 
pre-twentieth centruy literature as well as a rigorous course in grammar  
(dropped since my day I think). It took me four eyars to get the MFA, but it was  
time well spent. 
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From chris.lott at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 15:50:03 2005
From: chris.lott at gmail.com (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:50:03 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA tales
In-Reply-To: <aa458fec0512300926w300c1545n95f804ca88b7c6d6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa458fec0512300841w275b0ac9hc4b84a29c028c19c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFDAC635.16F9E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0512300926w300c1545n95f804ca88b7c6d6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0512301250t4d080e84y607f3aaa04db4bee@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/30/05, Suzanne Burns <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/30/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I do wonder how often equivalent arguments occur with other fields-- do
> accountants sit around and dis the degree they all have?  Do lawyers
> regularly lecture each other about how one can learn a lot about law without
> going to law school?  Do magazines like *Harper's* run pieces critiquing
> what music schools are up to?
>
>  Good point.  I have to say I never hear this argument among visual
> artists-- most artists I know have been very eager to study and learn and
> looked at their classes as a great opportunity.  This argument does seem to
> be a creative writing thing.

I don't know about that-- I hear a lot of artists bitching about the
(and their) MFA programs. They pretty much all recognize what's being
said here: the grad programs aren't about learning in and of
themselves, but about networking and having time to paint/etc. The
instruction and studio critiques are generally laughed at. In fact,
the stories about visual art workshops are so horrible and funny that
they put just about every parody of creative writing workshops to
shame.

I think the difference is just that many more artists recognize this
and live with it. They don't paint about it. MFA folks and other
writers take their natural tools to hand (pen and paper) and so the
cycle continues...

c



From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 30 16:06:18 2005
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:06:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA tales
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0512301250t4d080e84y607f3aaa04db4bee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <aa458fec0512300841w275b0ac9hc4b84a29c028c19c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFDAC635.16F9E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<aa458fec0512300926w300c1545n95f804ca88b7c6d6@mail.gmail.com>
	<9b1b9dab0512301250t4d080e84y607f3aaa04db4bee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04563029-927A-4788-BE78-9D3D1EB5EB7E@earthlink.net>


On Dec 30, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Chris Lott wrote:

> On 12/30/05, Suzanne Burns <queenmouse at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/30/05, David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I do wonder how often equivalent arguments occur with other  
>>> fields-- do
>> accountants sit around and dis the degree they all have?  Do lawyers
>> regularly lecture each other about how one can learn a lot about  
>> law without
>> going to law school?  Do magazines like *Harper's* run pieces  
>> critiquing
>> what music schools are up to?
>>
>>  Good point.  I have to say I never hear this argument among visual
>> artists-- most artists I know have been very eager to study and  
>> learn and
>> looked at their classes as a great opportunity.  This argument  
>> does seem to
>> be a creative writing thing.
>
> I don't know about that-- I hear a lot of artists bitching about the
> (and their) MFA programs. They pretty much all recognize what's being
> said here: the grad programs aren't about learning in and of
> themselves, but about networking and having time to paint/etc. The
> instruction and studio critiques are generally laughed at. In fact,
> the stories about visual art workshops are so horrible and funny that
> they put just about every parody of creative writing workshops to
> shame.
>
> I think the difference is just that many more artists recognize this
> and live with it. They don't paint about it. MFA folks and other
> writers take their natural tools to hand (pen and paper) and so the
> cycle continues...
>
> c

Maybe Todd Solandz's parody (?) of workshopping in *Storytelling*
isn't off by much, eh?

Hal

Today's Special

Theory of Harmony
http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf

Halvard Johnson
================
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 31 10:33:33 2005
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 07:33:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] miPOradio: Amy King Interviews Grace Cavalieri
In-Reply-To: <004001c607ec$8a69bea0$81d63152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <20051231153333.3683.qmail@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

From: Chinavieja at aol.com
Date: Dec 31, 2005 8:35 AM

  Happy New Year!
   
  We end the year with a bang of an interview. Amy King had the opportunity to visit with Grace Cavalieri yesterday and here it is already. You must put some time aside today to listen to this. 
   
  Here is our main page:
  http://www.miporadio.com      
   
  Subscribe to Amy's podcast here:
  http://feeds.feedburner.com/AmyKing     
   
  Listen to it here [you do *not* download - the show streams]:
  http://www.odeo.com/audio/580455/     
   
  Best to all of you this new year and here is to more miPOradio.
   
  Thank you for tuning in.
Didi Menendez
  Producer


		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
 Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Dec 31 13:20:16 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:20:16 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] miPOradio: Amy King Interviews Grace Cavalieri
References: <20051231153333.3683.qmail@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002201c60e36$d9a63890$5ba93252@ANNY>

A great interview Amy, excellent work,
Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: amy king 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 4:33 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] miPOradio: Amy King Interviews Grace Cavalieri


  From: Chinavieja at aol.com
  Date: Dec 31, 2005 8:35 AM


  Happy New Year!

  We end the year with a bang of an interview. Amy King had the opportunity to visit with Grace Cavalieri yesterday and here it is already. You must put some time aside today to listen to this. 

  Here is our main page:
  http://www.miporadio.com      

  Subscribe to Amy's podcast here:
  http://feeds.feedburner.com/AmyKing     

  Listen to it here [you do *not* download - the show streams]:
  http://www.odeo.com/audio/580455/     

  Best to all of you this new year and here is to more miPOradio.

  Thank you for tuning in.
  Didi Menendez
  Producer


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Photos
  Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From MillB at aol.com  Sat Dec 31 13:42:46 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:42:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry's website
Message-ID: <156.5ed084cc.30e82b26@aol.com>

Jeff,
 
Where are you getting your PhD?
 
Mill
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Dec 31 13:47:47 2005
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:47:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] kari edwards new book
Message-ID: <004901c60e3a$b17f9ba0$5ba93252@ANNY>

PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE!!!! PLEASE...


I would like to welcome to the New Year to you from India by announcing the
publication of my new book, "obedience" from Factory School Press..
You can either order it directly from the publish (Factory School -
see below) for $10.00 or SPD (also below) for $12.00..

 I do hope you enjoy... and for all those that helped and who but the
book thank you..

kari

obedience
Poetry
Factory School. 2005. 86 pages, perfect bound, 6.5x9.
ISBN: 1-60001-044-X
$12 / $10 direct order

Description: obedience, the fourth book by kari edwards, offers a
rhythmic disruption of the relative real, a progressive troubling of
the phenomenal world, from gross material to the infinitesimal. The
book's intention is a transformative mantric dismantling of being.

http://www.factoryschool.org/pubs/heretical/index.html

http://www.spdbooks.org/SearchResults.asp?AuthorTitle=edwards%2C+kari



--
transSubmutation
http://transdada3.blogspot.com/



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From MillB at aol.com  Sat Dec 31 18:01:55 2005
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:01:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA tales
Message-ID: <96.34f85676.30e867e3@aol.com>

Greetings,
 
What I hoped to get out of graduate school 15 years ago were the following  
opportunities:
 
1) to study with writers I had read and enjoyed.
2) to write for another few years before getting out into the "real  world."
3) to develop a writing community and friendships with fellow  writers.
4) to hone in and learn my craft.
5) to complete my thesis.
6) to spend time living as a writer (putting together a wage with teaching,  
articles, grants, freelance tech writing).
7) to "test out" the waters of a writing discipline in a relatively safe  
arena.
8) to earn a degree which would allow me to teach at the college  level.
9) to push myself academically (in new directions, instead of just writing  
by myself, what I wanted).
10) to refine the research techniques I learned in undergrad.
11) to find mentors and peers.
12) to have a place fund me (i.e., pay me to read! pay me to write).
13) access to visiting writers series, seminars, libraries, a literary  
journal, etc.
14) travel abroad for a semester (under the cloak of academia).
 
And, I got all this (and more).  No law school promises budding  attorneys 
that they will pass the bar, nor do they guarantee work at a "tony"  legal firm. 
 PhD or MFA programs don't make promises for success  either.
 
In both cases, it is not the degree, but the knowledge AND what you do with  
that knowledge that counts.
 
Mill
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