From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug  1 10:33:01 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:33:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gudding on the radio
Message-ID: <000b01c596a5$ebf1a6a0$e8a93252@ANNY>

http://odeo.com/tag/gabriel+gudding

click under the pretty face, 


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From paul.lake  Mon Aug  1 05:04:31 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:04:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fear of Fearing
In-Reply-To: <BF11AE7D.1193%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BF134FCF.9ACC%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/30/05 9:23 PM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> Dirge
> 
> 1-2-3 was the number he played but today the number came up 3-2-1;
> Bought his Carbide at 30 and it went to 29; had the favorite at Bowie
> but the track was slow-
> 
> O executive type, would you like to drive a floating-power, knee-action,
> silk-upholstered six? Wed a Hollywood star?
>                            Shoot the course in 58? Draw to the ace,
> king, jack?
> O fellow with a will who won't take no, watch out for three cigarettes
> on the same, single match; O democratic
>                            voter born in August under Mars, beware of
> liquidated rails-
> 
> Denouement to denouement, he took a personal pride in the certain,
> ceratin way he lived his own, private life,
> But nevertheless, they shut off his gas; nevertheless, the bank
> foreclosed; nevertheless, the landlord called;
>                            nevertheless, the radio broke,
> 
> And twelve o'clock arrived just once too often,
> Just the same he he wore one grey tweed suit, bought one straw hat,
> drank one straight Scotch, walked one
>                            short step, took one long look, drew one
> deep breath,
> Just one too many.
> 
> And wow he died as wow he lived,
> Going whop to the office and blooie home to sleep and biff got married
> and bam had children and oof got fired,
> Zowie did he live and zowie did he die,
> 
> With who the hell are you at the corner of his casket, and where the
> hell are we going on the right-hand silver
>                            knob, and who the hell cares walking second
> from the end with an Aerican Beauty wreath
>                            from why the hell not,
> 
> Very much missed by the circulation staff of the New York Eevening Post;
> deeply, deeply mourned by the B.M.T.,
> 
> Wham, Mr Roosevelt; pow, Sears Roebuck; awk, big dipper; bop, summer
> rain;
> Bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong, Mr., bong.
> 
> 
> --Kenneth Fearing
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

And pow Mr. Ashbery and bam Mr. Koch. Fearing out New-York-poets the New
York poets.


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From paul.lake  Mon Aug  1 05:07:02 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:07:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nemerov on faith and physics
In-Reply-To: <F9499043-9C1F-4999-A07E-A36E6A86A090@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BF135066.9ACD%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/31/05 12:30 PM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> from Howard Nemerov
> 
> Two Pair
> 
> 
> More money's lost, old gambers understand,
> On two pair than on any other hand;
> 
> And in the great world that may be the cause
> That we've two pairs of First and Second Laws.
> 
> The first pair tells us we may be redeemed,
> But in a world, the other says, that's doomed.
> 
> In one, the First Law says: Nothing is Lost.
> The other First Law adds: But we are lost.
> 
> One Second Law fulfills what spake the prophets;
> The other tersely sates: There are no profits.
> 
> Baffled between the Old Law and the New,
> What boots it to be told both sets are true,
> 
> Or that disorder in the universe
> Is perfectly legal, and always getting worse?
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> 
> Creation Myth on a Moebius Band
> 
> 
> This world's just mad enough to have been made
> By the Being his beings into Being prayed.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
 Nice pair. I especially like his Moebius Band.

Paul Lake




From paul.lake  Mon Aug  1 05:08:55 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:08:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] one of my epistemological sonnets
In-Reply-To: <B3D89FE5-210C-4023-AAB0-D26890D969D9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BF1350D7.9ACE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/31/05 1:27 PM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> We Are A Kind Of Map
> 
> 
> A buzzer-beating three-point shot reveals
> We're born to know our truths about this world,
> And so is everything: a fly conceals
> Itself till it's grown wings and they've unfurled;
> A virus has the key for just the cell
> Where it can flourish; that very cell, in dying,
> Creates an army ready to repel
> Precisely that invader or die in trying.
> Of course that's metaphor, but not a lie,
> Not just a way of trying to impose
> Some sense on senselessness, a useless "Why?"
> We answer till we like what we suppose.
> We'll make mistakes -- but make them unafraid:
> We see the world with eyes the world has made.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Very nice sonnet, Michael, especially the last line.

Paul Lake




From paul.lake  Mon Aug  1 05:17:39 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:17:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] one of my epistemological sonnets
In-Reply-To: <B3D89FE5-210C-4023-AAB0-D26890D969D9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BF1352E3.9AD3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's another sort of epistemological poem, from Walking Backward.

Paul Lake




      SIMON SAYS

 
We?re playing Simon Says.  Remember how?

(Simon says remember how, so it?s okay.)

It?s not enough to do what Simon says,

It?s what he says he says that you obey.

The rules are Simon?s.  All right, let?s begin.

Simon says, Don?t read this sentence or you?re out.

You did?  That?s it, game?s over, Simon wins,

However much you plead, protest, or pout.

Bound by the iron chain of such curved sense,

Simon himself must discontinue play.

There?s no appeal to gray omnipotence.

What Simon says he says he can?t unsay.







On 7/31/05 1:27 PM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> We Are A Kind Of Map
> 
> 
> A buzzer-beating three-point shot reveals
> We're born to know our truths about this world,
> And so is everything: a fly conceals
> Itself till it's grown wings and they've unfurled;
> A virus has the key for just the cell
> Where it can flourish; that very cell, in dying,
> Creates an army ready to repel
> Precisely that invader or die in trying.
> Of course that's metaphor, but not a lie,
> Not just a way of trying to impose
> Some sense on senselessness, a useless "Why?"
> We answer till we like what we suppose.
> We'll make mistakes -- but make them unafraid:
> We see the world with eyes the world has made.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Aug  1 12:42:13 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:42:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] one of my epistemological sonnets
Message-ID: <20b.616d8bd.301faae5@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/1/2005 11:14:02 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> 
> On 7/31/05 1:27 PM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >We Are A Kind Of Map
> >
> >
> >A buzzer-beating three-point shot reveals
> >We're born to know our truths about this world,
> >And so is everything: a fly conceals
> >Itself till it's grown wings and they've unfurled;
> >A virus has the key for just the cell
> >Where it can flourish; that very cell, in dying,
> >Creates an army ready to repel
> >Precisely that invader or die in trying.
> >Of course that's metaphor, but not a lie,
> >Not just a way of trying to impose
> >Some sense on senselessness, a useless "Why?"
> >We answer till we like what we suppose.
> >We'll make mistakes -- but make them unafraid:
> >We see the world with eyes the world has made.
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> Very nice sonnet, Michael, especially the last line.
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> _______________________________________________
Ditto on that, Mike, with just a hint of Wilbur's "Lamarck Elaborated" at the 
end.
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From chris.lott  Mon Aug  1 13:03:22 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:03:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <42EBBEE5.5375.6D9F7@localhost>
References: <20050730194417.10805.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com>
	<0ED7A039-6DD6-4381-BEBD-DDD58574A301@mac.com>
	<42EBBEE5.5375.6D9F7@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0508011003402d175c@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/30/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> Yeah, well, Michael, when they want to do magical thinking there's just
> no stopping them: they'll do magical thinking right up until the universe
> kills them for being wrong.

The Universe is going to kill us all off whether right, wrong, or
indifferent. Why not enjoy a little magical thinking along the way?
Misappropriation of scientific theory as metaphor can drive you crazy,
or you can view it as a sometimes beautiful kind of fiction (like a
lot of modern philosophy and literary theory). It doesn't threaten
science either way, and often even a bad analogy makes a worthwhile
point.

c




From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug  1 15:29:31 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:29:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Time to REALLY clear things up
References: <8d.2c1e3e39.301ed94e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009401c596cf$57657230$327c3652@ANNY>

A deterministic fatalistic definition which absurdly opens to greatest creativity, given as an assumption that poetry is Poetry

Anny Ballardini
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 3:47 AM


  In a message dated 7/31/2005 6:47:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:


    What happened first is that I sent a post about a week
    ago titled "Why Poetry Exists."

    (In the subject heading, I rendered "Poetry" in upper case to make
    Marcus's dactyled dredlocks catch on fire. Then David Graham sent in a
    post on Kenneth Fearing [!], transparently seeking to derail focus away
    from my impressive post and to selfishly pull attention toward himself.
    I have derived immense pleasure from the obvious failure of his
    attempt.)

    In that post on Why Poetry Exists, I said, in full, the following:

    "Because the essence of any thing is always incommensurate with its
    being."

    This is probably the profoundest thought I have ever had 


  mine is: 'Poetry presupposes its own purpose.'
  Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug  1 15:42:21 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:42:21 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
Message-ID: <00ae01c596d1$227918e0$327c3652@ANNY>

I just opened this page:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1289

under New Poetry Mailing List:
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=62

any contribution will be appreciated, 
my best 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames  Mon Aug  1 18:44:42 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:44:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <45.2d4c65b6.301fffda@aol.com>

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/articles/050808crbo_books

PRIMAL EAR

Roethke, Wright, and the cult of authenticity.
by ADAM KIRSCH
Issue of 2005-08-08 and 15
Posted 2005-08-01


On August 22, 1957, Pete Rademacher fought Floyd Patterson in Seattle for the 
world heavyweight championship. In the stands that day were two boxing fans 
from the English Department of the University of Washington: Theodore Roethke, 
a forty-nine-year-old professor, and his twenty-nine-year-old student James 
Wright, who was celebrating the completion of his Ph.D. Each was one of the 
leading poets of his generation. The year before, Wright's first book of poems, 
"The Green Wall," had been chosen by W. H. Auden for the Yale Younger Poets 
award; Roethke's most recent book, "The Waking," had won the 1954 Pulitzer Prize. 
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From mandolin  Mon Aug  1 19:54:34 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:54:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] one of my epistemological sonnets
In-Reply-To: <20b.616d8bd.301faae5@cs.com>
References: <20b.616d8bd.301faae5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <C024AC43-9ACE-4CAD-B88B-D95C908BFEF9@mac.com>


On Aug 1, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/1/2005 11:14:02 AM Central Daylight Time,  
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>>
>> On 7/31/05 1:27 PM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> >We Are A Kind Of Map
>> >
>> >
>> >A buzzer-beating three-point shot reveals
>> >We're born to know our truths about this world,
>> >And so is everything: a fly conceals
>> >Itself till it's grown wings and they've unfurled;
>> >A virus has the key for just the cell
>> >Where it can flourish; that very cell, in dying,
>> >Creates an army ready to repel
>> >Precisely that invader or die in trying.
>> >Of course that's metaphor, but not a lie,
>> >Not just a way of trying to impose
>> >Some sense on senselessness, a useless "Why?"
>> >We answer till we like what we suppose.
>> >We'll make mistakes -- but make them unafraid:
>> >We see the world with eyes the world has made.
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >New-Poetry mailing list
>> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> Very nice sonnet, Michael, especially the last line.
>>
>> Paul Lake
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Ditto on that, Mike, with just a hint of Wilbur's "Lamarck  
> Elaborated" at the end.


Paul and Sam, thank you both. I'll be high for a month because of  
that Wilbur mention, Sam.

Mike S





From mandolin  Mon Aug  1 20:03:44 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:03:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] one of my epistemological sonnets
In-Reply-To: <BF1352E3.9AD3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BF1352E3.9AD3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <99BE1481-6EA7-452E-857B-766C2C4EECC5@mac.com>


On Aug 1, 2005, at 5:17 AM, Paul Lake wrote:

> Here's another sort of epistemological poem, from Walking Backward.
>
> Paul Lake
>
>
>
>
>       SIMON SAYS
>
>
> We?re playing Simon Says.  Remember how?
>
> (Simon says remember how, so it?s okay.)
>
> It?s not enough to do what Simon says,
>
> It?s what he says he says that you obey.
>
> The rules are Simon?s.  All right, let?s begin.
>
> Simon says, Don?t read this sentence or you?re out.
>
> You did?  That?s it, game?s over, Simon wins,
>
> However much you plead, protest, or pout.
>
> Bound by the iron chain of such curved sense,
>
> Simon himself must discontinue play.
>
> There?s no appeal to gray omnipotence.
>
> What Simon says he says he can?t unsay.
>

Pretty nice, Paul. I don't have the nerve -- not yet, anyway -- to  
just not rhyme a line. You do pick up the "ow" in the middle of the  
secon line and in middle quatrain rhymes , and the long "a" in the  
last, though. In fact, all  the rhymes are linked around like that.  
Niftier than I'd noticed.

Mike S.





From Kent.Johnson  Mon Aug  1 20:25:18 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:25:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blog battles of Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
Message-ID: <s2ee7728.014@mail.highland.edu>

There's been quite a bit of notice and fisticuffs the past two days
about Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War at
various of the blogs (Pantaloons, Hotel Point, TexFiles, Cosmopoetica,
Tributary, Elsewhere, Bemsha Swing, etc.), all of it coming off from the
initial essay by Chris Daniels posted at TexFiles. You can see the long
and still unfolding exchange in the comments boxes to two of the posts
by scrolling down just a bit.

http://texfiles.blogspot.com/ 

And Gary Sullivan has posted a longish appraisal of this exchange at
his Elsewhere today:

http://garysullivan.blogspot.com/

You can read a response by me in his comments box, though I will go
ahead and post that right below, for conveniences sake.

Anyway, I suspect there is more to come. Here's my reply to Gary
Sullivan:

*

Dear Gary,

Thank you for writing in relation to Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz:
Eleven Submissions to the War. I suspected that the book would receive a
range of reactions. It does seem, from early returns, that I was right.
And this variety of opinion pleases me.

I gather from your comments on Elsewhere today that you don't much care
for the writing in the book. I can see, too, from comments you made at
Chris Murray's TexFiles, that you don't approve of what you call the
"rage" you see therein directed at "other poets." You say, referring to
this "rage":

>What is it? Why is it there? Why are you all so supportive of it? What
good is it doing for us? Why instead of expressing rage at other poets
are you not trying to bring them together?

It's not clear to me what relation this purported rage may have to your
estimation of the "poetic" merits of the book (a tricky matter that, of
course, how poetic politics often inflects our critical judgment or
taste) and I would be interested in having you talk about how these
things are articulated (or are separated out) in your overall estimation
of the book. 

However, I do need to ask you something important: Where is this "rage"
toward other poets that you see, exactly? I have looked through the
book, piece by piece, and I have to tell you honestly that I don't see
it. I can find lots of quirky humor (my attempt at it, anyway) and
strong self-deprecation in a number of the pieces; a candid critique in
the concluding essay of the attitude of some poets of the post-avant
toward Poets Against the War (a critique, incidentally, that has as its
central point that *poets needed to be brought together*, as you suggest
they should above); I see some fairly benign, even loving satire here
and there; and I see in the book lots of rage, yes, directed against the
War. But I truly don't see any instances of this "rage" you speak of
against other poets. 

The one place I could maybe see someone thinking there was a kind of
violent animus toward poets would be in the book's title poem, where
suddenly, after a number of Abu Ghraib prison guards have had their say,
a nameless poet begins to speak. But this makes for a very complicated
situation, and I think it would be superficial to percieve this stanza
as just "rage" directed at others. Why? Well, because this poet cast in
the role of "prison guard" is, as much as anyone...ME! 

So I did want to express my bemusement over this matter of "rage," as
you have it, thinking that doing so, even if you disagree with me, might
make further (I hope!) discussion more interesting. Please indicate,
with textual reference, where you see this harmful "rage" at poets
coming up and what kind of harm you think it does. This might make for
an interesting conversation, if you do.

Now, I realize from your remarks that you somewhat feel Chris Daniels
has so colored the discussion from the get-go that it is almost
impossible to be critical of my book without seeming unduly prejudiced
against my person. I don't agree at all with that estimation of Chris's
commentary (whatever else you might think of it, you have to admit it's
one of the most refreshingly heartfelt and non-disingenuous commentaries
in our poetry circles in some time), but in any case: Why not just go
ahead and say what you think, Gary? If you make a good, intelligent
argument against the book, I promise I won't think it's just because you
don't like me! I may disagree with your analysis, but I won't take it
personally, in the sense that you just have an agenda, or something like
that.  

So, assuming my impression is correct, what don't you like about Lyric
Poetry after Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War?

Kent











From Rsgwynn1  Mon Aug  1 21:11:04 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:11:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <1c7.2d9e678d.30202228@cs.com>

I suspect that Wright backed Patterson, the most haunted and self-effacing of 
all champions, while Roethke backed Rademacher, the unknown son of the soil.  
I remember the fight pretty well and I recall that R. gave P. a run for his 
money early on.  Floyd was such a sweet, haunted man that he probably would 
have been better if he'd never won the championship (when such things really 
mattered) and didn't have to face Liston, who totally cowed him.  It was 
Rademacher's first pro fight (after winning a gold medal in the Olympics) and he had a 
fairly respectably career afterwards.  He was one of the few pros who retired 
at the right time and did well in business.  The last I head about Floyd 
Patterson, he had Alzheimer's--very sad because I always admired his class in the 
ring.  Even with a bad back injury, he wouldn't cancel and gave Ali a few good 
rounds.
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From halvard  Mon Aug  1 22:36:59 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:36:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?
Message-ID: <7146022d5b6554010bf9a9332c300c1e@earthlink.net>

	From: 	  halvard at earthlink.net
	Subject: 	Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?
	Date: 	August 1, 2005 10:35:21 PM EDT
	To: 	  crewrt-l at interversity.org

NYT, August 2, 2005
In Addition to His Pugnacity and Charm, He Can Write Poetry

By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
On a gray and rainy day recently, the poet August Kleinzahler was 
eating a hot dog and greasy fries at a hot dog shop in Fort Lee, N.J., 
called Hiram's, a gruff, no-frills place that Mr. Kleinzahler says is 
about as close to the literary establishment across the river in 
Manhattan as he cares to be.

But Mr. Kleinzahler, 55, noted both for poems that jarringly marry the 
high and the low and for keeping his distance from the New York 
illuminati, has found himself late in his career in a rather awkward 
spot: the cusp of respectability in the cliquish world of poetry.

While those who pay no attention to poetry have probably never heard of 
him, Mr. Kleinzahler has gradually become a poetry star. His work is a 
modernist swirl of sex, surrealism, urban life and melancholy with a 
jazzy backbeat. His personality combines Allen Ginsberg's goofball 
charm and Norman Mailer's inveterate pugnacity.

"I don't like to call myself a poet," Mr. Kleinzahler said with 
characteristic bluntness. "Most poets are shiftless, no-account fools."

Nonetheless, two springs ago he won the Griffin Poetry Prize - a 
$40,000 award that is one of poetry's most lucrative honors. His recent 
collection of essays, "Cutty, One Rock" (Farrar, Straus & Giroux), 
received good reviews and will be released in paperback next year.

His scathing and lengthy putdown in Poetry magazine last year of the 
radio show host and writer Garrison Keillor's middlebrow taste in verse 
both made him a defender of the faith and confirmed his reputation as a 
divisive figure. And even though he regularly excoriates university 
poetry programs as ineffectual, he will return as a guest lecturer at 
the University of Texas next spring, the first time he remembers being 
invited back anywhere.

Mr. Kleinzahler, who was born in Fort Lee but now lives in San 
Francisco, is a throwback to earlier generations of poets, who wore 
their nonconformity as a badge and delighted in shocking the public. 
That tradition, he says, fell away once poets began accepting 
university teaching posts.

"If you're a poet, you've earned the right to blow off whoever you 
want," he said. "There used to be dozens of cranks and scolds, but 
there aren't any anymore."

But as much as he plays what he calls the "apostate poet" and brushes 
off the work of better-known contemporaries - "very few famous poets 
are interesting to me" - Mr. Kleinzahler's colleagues praise his 
poetry, if not always him.

Billy Collins, the former poet laureate of the United States, has been 
on the receiving end of many of Mr. Kleinzahler's jabs but says that he 
respects his work. "Apart from him personally, I really like his 
poetry," said Mr. Collins, who teaches English at Lehman College in the 
Bronx.

John Ashbery, one of contemporary poetry's most revered figures, is 
also a Kleinzahler admirer. "I like the sort of m?lange of different 
voices and tenses, the kind of street talk and modernist illusions and 
the kind of jazz atmosphere and free improvisation," Mr. Ashbery said 
in a telephone interview. "It's a warm and appealing voice."

Mr. Ashbery said he didn't even find Mr. Kleinzahler disagreeable. "I 
wouldn't think of him as a bad boy," he said. "I've always found him 
quite charming." Mr. Ginsberg wrote in a blurb for one of Mr. 
Kleinzahler's volumes of poetry: "August Kleinzahler's verse line is 
always precise, concrete, intelligent and rare - that quality of 
'chiseled' verse memorable in Basil Bunting's and Ezra Pound's work. A 
loner, a genius."

The poet has been living in San Francisco going on 25 years, but he is 
northern New Jersey to the roots. (Mr. Kleinzahler's mother still lives 
in Fort Lee, and he visits her regularly.)

"The New Jersey character - at least this part of Jersey - is 
straightforward, plainspoken to the point of bluntness, though not at 
all unfriendly," he wrote in a recent essay. "The humor is deadpan, 
ironical, playfully depreciating. Affectation is quickly and viscerally 
registered. It's a beer-and-a-bump kind of place. There's a swagger, a 
bluff air of menace that many of the males carry."

In San Francisco, Mr. Kleinzahler once gave a panhandler a dollar. 
"Thanks, Jersey," the man said.

"How did you know I was from Jersey?" Mr. Kleinzahler asked.

"Are you kidding?" the man asked.

He has published nine volumes of poetry beginning with "The Sausage 
Master of Minsk" in 1977. His most recent collection, "The Strange 
Hours Travelers Keep" (Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2003) won the Griffin 
Prize.

In last year's prose collection, "Cutty, One Rock," Mr. Kleinzahler 
tells the story of his older brother, Harris, whose life played out 
like a romantic poet's - except that Harris was a financial analyst by 
day and a hustler by night. Harris, whose preferred beverage was Cutty 
Sark Scotch with a single ice cube, committed suicide at 27.

"It's not as if he didn't understand that much of his behavior was 
driven by desperation and self-hate," Mr. Kleinzahler wrote. "He wasn't 
shallow or unreflective, quite the contrary. It was simply the way he 
was. He was born wild, born troubled. He wasn't designed for the long 
haul; not everyone is."

After his Fort Lee childhood, Mr. Kleinzahler embarked on a sort of 
migrant's life. He dropped out of the University of Wisconsin, lived on 
a commune, hitchhiked across the country and worked as a lumberjack and 
taxi driver.

"I was bored by everything," he said. "I just felt stuck watching the 
second hand of the clock. I wasn't interested in anything else but 
poetry and books."

"I've avoided the structures of conventional work and marriage," he 
said. "I like to make myself available to chance." (Even so, after 
years of bachelorhood Mr. Kleinzahler recently married Sarah Kobrinsky, 
27, whom he met last fall.) His poetry follows the same pattern: a 
reckless tumble of words mixing the high and the low, like a rummage 
sale after the death of someone who adored both Shakespeare and smut. 
People in the poems are in transition, unable to find their footing.

"On Waking in a Room and Not Knowing Where One Is," concludes:

In a moment or two you will know
exactly where you are,
on which side the door,
your wallet, your shoes,
and what today you'll have to do.
Cities each have a kind of light,
a color even,
or set of undertones
determined by the river or hills
as well as by the stone
of their countless buildings.
I cannot yet recall what city this is I'm in.
It must be close to dawn.

At Hiram's Mr. Kleinzahler, wearing a baseball cap and a weathered blue 
rain slicker, blended easily among the locals. Every time a stranger 
walked in, the place seemed to curl around itself like a rattlesnake.

The restaurant has been in business since 1932 and is the same spot 
where his father took his mother on dates.

That afternoon, a woman at a nearby table scolded a man: "What did you 
think would happen? You were missing for four days."

Mr. Kleinzahler, the unofficial poet laureate of Fort Lee, seemed not 
to hear. He held up his hot dog and surveyed it. "This," he said, "is a 
beautiful thing."


Hal

Today's Special -- Hamilton Stone Review
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html

Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
            halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com




From AlMaginnes  Mon Aug  1 23:09:51 2005
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:09:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <1e.4a81afef.30203dff@aol.com>

 
Seems like a real cult has sprung up around Liston in recent years. I know  a 
couple of poets who have Liston poems but no Patterson poems or Ali poens for 
 that matter. And who has written yet about Roberto Duran or Marvelous Marvin 
 Hagler who, to my eyes, beat Leoonard the first time they fought.
 
Beyond that, I'm not sure what Kirsch is on about when he speaks of the  
failure of Roethke's later work. For my money, "North American Sequence" remains  
one of the great acheivements of American poetry. 
 
In a message dated 8/1/2005 9:11:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

I suspect that Wright backed Patterson, the most haunted  and self-effacing 
of all champions, while Roethke backed Rademacher, the  unknown son of the 
soil.  I remember the fight pretty well and I recall  that R. gave P. a run for 
his money early on.  Floyd was such a sweet,  haunted man that he probably would 
have been better if he'd never won the  championship (when such things really 
mattered) and didn't have to face  Liston, who totally cowed him.  It was 
Rademacher's first pro fight  (after winning a gold medal in the Olympics) and he 
had a fairly respectably  career afterwards.  He was one of the few pros who 
retired at the right  time and did well in business.  The last I head about 
Floyd Patterson, he  had Alzheimer's--very sad because I always admired his 
class in the  ring.  Even with a bad back injury, he wouldn't cancel and gave Ali 
a few  good rounds. 





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From Kent.Johnson  Mon Aug  1 23:49:33 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 22:49:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz continued
Message-ID: <s2eea725.046@mail.highland.edu>

(in reply to a second, rather touchy post, by Gary Sullivan, at his blog
Elsewhere.)

Well, you had already begun to write about the book, Gary, unless I
dreamed up Chris Murray's comment boxes today and the prior post on your
blog... So the resort to sarcasm with "KENT JOHNSON wants me to write
about his book. Huh" in title to your latest blog post is a bit odd, to
say the least. 

You seem a bit "off your game," there, frankly.

My post to your comment box was perfectly cordial and inviting of
further dialogue. The snitty tone you chose for reply is quite
revealing, I think. But people can draw their own conclusions.

I don't feel any need to point out to you where in the book there is
evidence of my feelings about the war. I've published a book; you have
made some claims about it; I've asked you for clarification; now you are
asking me to prove the book's anti-war sentiments. That's pretty funny,
actually.

I asked you to point out to me where exactly in the book you see my
"rage" directed at "other poets" because you said the following at Chris
Murray's TexFiles: 

"I understand and share Chris and Kent's rage about the slaughter of
innocent people. Their rage about other poets is what I'm confused
about. That rage--against other poets--seems to be at the core of Kent's
book and Chris's review, unless I'm misreading both."

OK, so apparently you don't wish to clarify. That is perfectly fine.

On the matter of the poem I wrote with the brilliant and irascible Jack
Kimball, with whom I have collaborated on a couple of sequences, the
simple fact is that I thought I had mentioned matter of factly to him I
planned to publish the poem in the book. It turns out I didn't. There
was no ill intent, nor did I ever think he would object: the poem has
long been scheduled to appear in a widely read poetry magazine and Jack
was obviously fine with its public appearance. Scott Pierce will be
doing a second run of the book soon, and I wrote Jack and offered to
take out his entries in the poem if he wished. Jack replied that no, he
was fine with the poem just as it was and fine with its appearance in
the magazine, too. So I don't think this is much of an issue anymore. I
am sorry there was a misunderstanding.

Again, I'd be delighted to have a dialogue with you on the book, its
poetics and politics. I think there are some interesting things to talk
about in that regard. So let me know if and when you calm down about the
situation and are ready to talk.

Kent





 







From Rsgwynn1  Tue Aug  2 00:07:42 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:07:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <20a.63db50e.30204b8e@cs.com>

I was always pulling for Eddie Machen for whatever's that's worth.  A great 
boxer who lacked the killer instinct.
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From AlMaginnes  Tue Aug  2 07:26:13 2005
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:26:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <147.4a9263eb.3020b255@aol.com>

 
I was a Michael Moorer fan for a long while. I think poets might be drawn  to 
boxers who are flawed in some respect. It makes them more interesting.
 
In a message dated 8/2/2005 12:08:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:


I was always pulling for Eddie Machen for whatever's that's  worth.  A great 
boxer who lacked the killer  instinct.




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From halvard  Tue Aug  2 09:06:54 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:06:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Gibson on cut-ups, etc.
Message-ID: <10ef70e63015ff453a14d77520a3e873@earthlink.net>

God's Little Toys?
Confessions of a cut & paste artist.
By William Gibson
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When I was 13, in 1961, I surreptitiously purchased an anthology of 
Beat writing - sensing, correctly, that my mother wouldn't approve.

Immediately, and to my very great excitement, I discovered Allen 
Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, and one William S. Burroughs - author of 
something called Naked Lunch, excerpted there in all its coruscating 
brilliance.

Burroughs was then as radical a literary man as the world had to offer, 
and in my opinion, he still holds the title. Nothing, in all my 
experience of literature since, has ever been quite as remarkable for 
me, and nothing has ever had as strong an effect on my sense of the 
sheer possibilities of writing.

Later, attempting to understand this impact, I discovered that 
Burroughs had incorporated snippets of other writers' texts into his 
work, an action I knew my teachers would have called plagiarism. Some 
of these borrowings had been lifted from American science fiction of 
the '40s and '50s, adding a secondary shock of recognition for me.

By then I knew that this "cut-up method," as Burroughs called it, was 
central to whatever it was he thought he was doing, and that he quite 
literally believed it to be akin to magic. When he wrote about his 
process, the hairs on my neck stood up, so palpable was the excitement. 
Experiments with audiotape inspired him in a similar vein: "God's 
little toy," his friend Brion Gysin called their reel-to-reel machine.

Sampling. Burroughs was interrogating the universe with scissors and a 
paste pot, and the least imitative of authors was no plagiarist at all.

Some 20 years later, when our paths finally crossed, I asked Burroughs 
whether he was writing on a computer yet. "What would I want a computer 
for?" he asked, with evident distaste. "I have a typewriter."

But I already knew that word processing was another of God's little 
toys, and that the scissors and paste pot were always there for me, on 
the desktop of my Apple IIc. Burroughs' methods, which had also worked 
for Picasso, Duchamp, and Godard, were built into the technology 
through which I now composed my own narratives. Everything I wrote, I 
believed instinctively, was to some extent collage. Meaning, 
ultimately, seemed a matter of adjacent data.

Thereafter, exploring possibilities of (so-called) cyberspace, I 
littered my narratives with references to one sort or another of 
collage: the AI in Count Zero that emulates Joseph Cornell, the 
assemblage environment constructed on the Bay Bridge in Virtual Light.

Meanwhile, in the early '70s in Jamaica, King Tubby and Lee "Scratch" 
Perry, great visionaries, were deconstructing recorded music. Using 
astonishingly primitive predigital hardware, they created what they 
called versions. The recombinant nature of their means of production 
quickly spread to DJs in New York and London.

Our culture no longer bothers to use words like appropriation or 
borrowing to describe those very activities. Today's audience isn't 
listening at all - it's participating. Indeed, audience is as antique a 
term as record, the one archaically passive, the other archaically 
physical. The record, not the remix, is the anomaly today. The remix is 
the very nature of the digital.

Today, an endless, recombinant, and fundamentally social process 
generates countless hours of creative product (another antique term?). 
To say that this poses a threat to the record industry is simply comic. 
The record industry, though it may not know it yet, has gone the way of 
the record. Instead, the recombinant (the bootleg, the remix, the 
mash-up) has become the characteristic pivot at the turn of our two 
centuries.

We live at a peculiar juncture, one in which the record (an object) and 
the recombinant (a process) still, however briefly, coexist. But there 
seems little doubt as to the direction things are going. The 
recombinant is manifest in forms as diverse as Alan Moore's graphic 
novel The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, machinima generated with 
game engines (Quake, Doom, Halo), the whole metastasized library of 
Dean Scream remixes, genre-warping fan fiction from the universes of 
Star Trek or Buffy or (more satisfying by far) both at once, the 
JarJar-less Phantom Edit (sound of an audience voting with its 
fingers), brand-hybrid athletic shoes, gleefully transgressive logo 
jumping, and products like Kubrick figures, those Japanese collectibles 
that slyly masquerade as soulless corporate units yet are rescued from 
anonymity by the application of a thoughtfully aggressive "custom" 
paint job.

We seldom legislate new technologies into being. They emerge, and we 
plunge with them into whatever vortices of change they generate. We 
legislate after the fact, in a perpetual game of catch-up, as best we 
can, while our new technologies redefine us - as surely and perhaps as 
terribly as we've been redefined by broadcast television.

"Who owns the words?" asked a disembodied but very persistent voice 
throughout much of Burroughs' work. Who does own them now? Who owns the 
music and the rest of our culture? We do. All of us.

Though not all of us know it - yet.
William Gibson's latest novel is Pattern Recognition.

fr. Wired
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/gibson_pr.html


Hal

Today's Special -- Hamilton Stone Review
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html

Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
            halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com


From JforJames  Tue Aug  2 09:50:50 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:50:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
Message-ID: <30.77b9ca89.3020d43a@aol.com>

It should be brought to mind that the necessity of poetry is based on the 
requirement
to represent the infinite, which emerges from the imperfection of philosophy.
                
       --Friedrich Schlegel,  Friedrich Schlegel, Philosophical Fragments,      
                                 trans. Peter Firchow
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From halvard  Tue Aug  2 10:01:40 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:01:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
In-Reply-To: <30.77b9ca89.3020d43a@aol.com>
References: <30.77b9ca89.3020d43a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4f7ec8a3c2a798bf31ba024fb341c538@earthlink.net>


> It should be brought to mind that the necessity of poetry is based on 
> the requirement
>  to represent the infinite, which emerges from the imperfection of 
> philosophy.
>  ????????????
>  ?????? --Friedrich Schlegel,? Friedrich Schlegel, Philosophical 
> Fragments,? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? trans. Peter Firchow

Oh, fudge.

Hal





From anny.ballardini  Tue Aug  2 10:24:39 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:24:39 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
References: <30.77b9ca89.3020d43a@aol.com>
	<4f7ec8a3c2a798bf31ba024fb341c538@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <007201c5976d$eada6d60$62df3652@ANNY>

fudge like _Vanilla Fudge_ I prefer the chocolate one!

And thank you for Friedrich Schlegel, and the great quotation. I will add it 
right now.

Anny

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
&amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists


>
>> It should be brought to mind that the necessity of poetry is based on the 
>> requirement
>>  to represent the infinite, which emerges from the imperfection of 
>> philosophy.
>>  --Friedrich Schlegel, Friedrich Schlegel, Philosophical Fragments, 
>> trans. Peter Firchow
>
> Oh, fudge.
>
> Hal
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From mandolin  Tue Aug  2 11:27:29 2005
From: mandolin (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:27:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
Message-ID: <12843315.1122996449586.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Anny,

I'll just repeat myself --

Poetry exists because we're language-using animals who love story, rhythm, and pattern.

Mike S.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From JforJames  Tue Aug  2 12:10:22 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:10:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] WALT WHITMAN SYMPOSIUM@ The College of NJ 
Message-ID: <129.62289652.3020f4ee@aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-whpoets at writing.upenn.edu on behalf of Peter Murphy
Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 10:21 AM
To: nanders1 at swarthmore.edu
Subject: [NEWSENDER] - WALT WHITMAN SYMPOSIUM@ The College of NJ - Message is 
from an unknown sender

WALT WHITMAN SYMPOSIUM@ The College of NJ

Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass: The Sesquicentennial Symposium

September 22-24, 2005
The College of New Jersey
Ewing, NJ

The College of New Jersey will host a three-day symposium celebrating the
150th anniversary of Walt Whitman's LEAVES OF GRASS, an event that
coincides with the College's own sesquicentennial celebration. Featuring
some of the nation's most prominent poets, scholars, and intellectuals, the
symposium will attract teachers and scholars from around the region and will
be open to the public.
The symposium will include a wide variety of activities and events to which
the public is warmly invited:

Scholarly panels on Whitman
Poetry readings including Sherman Alexie, Matthea Harvey, David Lehman &
James Longenbach

An Art Faculty Exhibition of works inspired by passages from LEAVES OF
GRASS,
A series of roundtable discussions focused on teaching LEAVES OF GRASS,
in secondary school classrooms
The Fred Hersch Ensemble performing Hersch's jazz composition LEAVES
OF GRASS,*
Stephen Collins performing in "Unlaunched Voices"

$50 Registration Fee  / Teachers free with advanced registration before
September 6.  Please note: Thanks to a grant from the New Jersey Council for
the Humanities, all events on Thursday September 22 are free and open to
the public.


For more information & to register on lne:
 http://www.tcnj.edu/~whitman/index

This program is made possible by a grant from the New Jersey Council for the
Humanities, a state partner of the National Endowment of the Humanities. Any
views, findings, conclusions or recommendations in this program do not
necessarily represent those of the National Endowment of the Humanities or
the New Jersey Council for the Humanities.
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From paul.lake  Tue Aug  2 05:20:58 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:20:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] one of my epistemological sonnets
In-Reply-To: <99BE1481-6EA7-452E-857B-766C2C4EECC5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/1/05 7:03 PM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> On Aug 1, 2005, at 5:17 AM, Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>> Here's another sort of epistemological poem, from Walking Backward.
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>       SIMON SAYS
>> 
>> 
>> We?re playing Simon Says.  Remember how?
>> 
>> (Simon says remember how, so it?s okay.)
>> 
>> It?s not enough to do what Simon says,
>> 
>> It?s what he says he says that you obey.
>> 
>> The rules are Simon?s.  All right, let?s begin.
>> 
>> Simon says, Don?t read this sentence or you?re out.
>> 
>> You did?  That?s it, game?s over, Simon wins,
>> 
>> However much you plead, protest, or pout.
>> 
>> Bound by the iron chain of such curved sense,
>> 
>> Simon himself must discontinue play.
>> 
>> There?s no appeal to gray omnipotence.
>> 
>> What Simon says he says he can?t unsay.
>> 
> 
> Pretty nice, Paul. I don't have the nerve -- not yet, anyway -- to
> just not rhyme a line. You do pick up the "ow" in the middle of the
> secon line and in middle quatrain rhymes , and the long "a" in the
> last, though. In fact, all  the rhymes are linked around like that.
> Niftier than I'd noticed.
> 
> Mike S.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
For the past few years I've been writing metrical lines that rhyme
irregularly.  Don't know why, exactly, but I'm so busy pursuing the sense of
what I'm saying that I let myself rhyme where it feels right instead of
where a pattern demands.  Don't know what the ultimate judgment of such a
practice will be, but it's been fun using rhyme without the obligation to
always make it fit an exact pattern.

Paul





From paul.lake  Tue Aug  2 05:27:58 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:27:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <1c7.2d9e678d.30202228@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BF14A6CE.9AFB%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/1/05 8:11 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> I suspect that Wright backed Patterson, the most haunted and self-effacing of
> all champions, while Roethke backed Rademacher, the unknown son of the soil.
> I remember the fight pretty well and I recall that R. gave P. a run for his
> money early on.  Floyd was such a sweet, haunted man that he probably would
> have been better if he'd never won the championship (when such things really
> mattered) and didn't have to face Liston, who totally cowed him.  It was
> Rademacher's first pro fight (after winning a gold medal in the Olympics) and
> he had a fairly respectably career afterwards.  He was one of the few pros who
> retired at the right time and did well in business.  The last I head about
> Floyd Patterson, he had Alzheimer's--very sad because I always admired his
> class in the ring.  Even with a bad back injury, he wouldn't cancel and gave
> Ali a few good rounds.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

I always liked Patterson too, but wished he didn?t always refer to Ali by
his old name, Cassius Clay, on tv, long after everyone else had gone with
the new name?the one thing that undercut Patterson?s otherwise class act. 
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From paul.lake  Tue Aug  2 05:31:53 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:31:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <1e.4a81afef.30203dff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF14A7B9.9AFD%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/1/05 10:09 PM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:

> Seems like a real cult has sprung up around Liston in recent years. I know a
> couple of poets who have Liston poems but no Patterson poems or Ali poens for
> that matter. And who has written yet about Roberto Duran or Marvelous Marvin
> Hagler who, to my eyes, beat Leoonard the first time they fought.

Here in Arkansas we?re very proud of the new undisputed middle weight champ,
Jermaine Taylor, of Little Rock. My son and I once had a nice chat with him
while he was autographing a promotional flyer for an upcoming fight, for my
son. A great guy, Taylor?who will have to face today?s Marvin Hagler,
Bernard Hopkins, again in December for the scheduled rematch.

Paul Lake
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From paul.lake  Tue Aug  2 05:34:31 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:34:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <147.4a9263eb.3020b255@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF14A857.9AFF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/2/05 6:26 AM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:

> I was a Michael Moorer fan for a long while. I think poets might be drawn to
> boxers who are flawed in some respect. It makes them more interesting.

I was a fan of George Foreman during his comeback and was delighted when he
k. o.?d Moorer to win the title at age 45 I think it was?  Tommy Hearns just
tko?d a young fighter at 46.


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From mandolin  Tue Aug  2 12:41:26 2005
From: mandolin (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:41:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Epistemology (Wilbur)
Message-ID: <6176413.1123000886666.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>


Epistemology


                   I

Kick at the rock, Sam Johnson, break your bones:
But cloudy, cloudy is the stuff of stones.

                   II

We milk the cow of the world, and as we do
We whisper in her ear, "You are not true."






Mind


Mind in its purest play is like some bat
That beats about in caverns all alone,
Contriving by a kind of senseless wit
Not to conclude against a wall of stone.

It has no need to falter or explore;
Darkly it knows what obstacles are there,
And so may weave and flitter, dip and soar
In perfect courses through the blackest air.

And has this simile a like perfection?
The mind is like a bat. Precisely. Save
That in the very happiest intellection
A graceful error may correct the cave.



-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From JforJames  Tue Aug  2 12:49:45 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:49:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <111.4f3a38ef.3020fe29@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/2/2005 12:38:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
On 8/2/05 6:26 AM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:


I was a Michael Moorer fan for a long while. I think poets might be drawn to 
boxers who are flawed in some respect. It makes them more interesting.


I was a fan of George Foreman during his comeback and was delighted when he 
k. o.?d Moorer to win the title at age 45 I think it was?  Tommy Hearns just tko
?d a young fighter at 46. 
Being from St. Louis, light heavy Michael Spinks was one of my favorites. No 
better fighter until the advent of Tyson. 
His older brother Leon Spinks had his 15 minutes when he defeated Ali. 
Then lost is all to his old neighborhood bad habits.
Finnegan
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From Kent.Johnson  Tue Aug  2 13:02:44 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:02:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Meander"
Message-ID: <s2ef60ff.064@mail.highland.edu>

is an absolutely gorgeous poem by Stanley Plumley. It is in the current
issue of the Atlantic.

(by the way, speaking of boxing, has anyone been watching the re-runs
of all the Muhammad Ali fights on ESPN? Watching him in his youth, in
all his glory, makes you want to cry.)



From AlMaginnes  Tue Aug  2 13:45:03 2005
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:45:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <1db.40c86752.30210b1f@aol.com>

 
I just never liked Foreman. The last time I remember pulling for him to win  
a fight was in 1968 during the Olympics. 
 
In a message dated 8/2/2005 12:38:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

I was  a fan of George Foreman during his comeback and was delighted when he 
k. o.?d  Moorer to win the title at age 45 I think it was?  Tommy Hearns just  
tko?d a young fighter at 46. 





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From AlMaginnes  Tue Aug  2 13:46:57 2005
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:46:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
Message-ID: <88.2bed2112.30210b91@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 8/2/2005 12:50:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
JforJames at aol.com writes:

In a message dated 8/2/2005 12:38:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

On 8/2/05 6:26 AM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com"  <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:


I was a Michael Moorer fan for a  long while. I think poets might be drawn to 
boxers who are flawed in some  respect. It makes them more interesting.


I was a fan of George Foreman during his comeback and was  delighted when he 
k. o.?d Moorer to win the title at age 45 I think it was?  Tommy Hearns just 
tko?d a young fighter at 46. 
Being from St. Louis, light heavy Michael Spinks was one of my favorites.  No 
better fighter until the advent of Tyson. 
His older brother Leon Spinks had his 15 minutes when he defeated  Ali. 
Then lost is all to his old neighborhood bad habits.
Finnegan





Isn't Cory Spinks one of the Spinks brothers' sons? 
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From halvard  Tue Aug  2 14:02:00 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:02:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <1db.40c86752.30210b1f@aol.com>
References: <1db.40c86752.30210b1f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4cf8ba9533ce5345dd9df8b1289675ad@earthlink.net>

The boxers I really like have four legs.

Hal

Today's Special -- Hamilton Stone Review
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html

Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
            halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com




From DICK  Tue Aug  2 14:19:20 2005
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:19:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Primal Ear: Floyd Patterson "most haunted"
Message-ID: <200508021818.j72IISK3023381@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your file: NEW-POET NOTE of: 08/02 12:03:26 ***************
As I remember, when Floyd Patterson was coming up he was
a great "white hope" (metaphorically, not literally) - highly skilled,
a powerful puncher, terrific fighter, wonderful mild personality, sort
of a better-spoken Joe Louis.  Then, for a reason I can't remember,
he lost to Ingemar Johannson, who did a fair amount of strutting
afterward.  Patterson got his rematch, trained very hard, was very
ready -- and somehow Johannson was not.  Patterson almost killed him,
with not a lot of punches; Johannson was out on the floor for a while,
his foot twitching.

>From then on, Patterson was not the same.  My guess is that he was afraid
of killing somebody, even Liston.  After that he was indeed haunted.

Richard.



From hruggier  Tue Aug  2 14:45:21 2005
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:45:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?
References: <7146022d5b6554010bf9a9332c300c1e@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <007701c59792$568bf780$740d9942@Helen>

Great piece.  Thanks for posting.

h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:36 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?


> From:   halvard at earthlink.net
> Subject: Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?
> Date: August 1, 2005 10:35:21 PM EDT
> To:   crewrt-l at interversity.org
>
> NYT, August 2, 2005
> In Addition to His Pugnacity and Charm, He Can Write Poetry
>
> By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
> On a gray and rainy day recently, the poet August Kleinzahler was eating a 
> hot dog and greasy fries at a hot dog shop in Fort Lee, N.J., called 
> Hiram's, a gruff, no-frills place that Mr. Kleinzahler says is about as 
> close to the literary establishment across the river in Manhattan as he 
> cares to be.
>
> But Mr. Kleinzahler, 55, noted both for poems that jarringly marry the 
> high and the low and for keeping his distance from the New York 
> illuminati, has found himself late in his career in a rather awkward spot: 
> the cusp of respectability in the cliquish world of poetry.
>
> While those who pay no attention to poetry have probably never heard of 
> him, Mr. Kleinzahler has gradually become a poetry star. His work is a 
> modernist swirl of sex, surrealism, urban life and melancholy with a jazzy 
> backbeat. His personality combines Allen Ginsberg's goofball charm and 
> Norman Mailer's inveterate pugnacity.
>
> "I don't like to call myself a poet," Mr. Kleinzahler said with 
> characteristic bluntness. "Most poets are shiftless, no-account fools."
>
> Nonetheless, two springs ago he won the Griffin Poetry Prize - a $40,000 
> award that is one of poetry's most lucrative honors. His recent collection 
> of essays, "Cutty, One Rock" (Farrar, Straus & Giroux), received good 
> reviews and will be released in paperback next year.
>
> His scathing and lengthy putdown in Poetry magazine last year of the radio 
> show host and writer Garrison Keillor's middlebrow taste in verse both 
> made him a defender of the faith and confirmed his reputation as a 
> divisive figure. And even though he regularly excoriates university poetry 
> programs as ineffectual, he will return as a guest lecturer at the 
> University of Texas next spring, the first time he remembers being invited 
> back anywhere.
>
> Mr. Kleinzahler, who was born in Fort Lee but now lives in San Francisco, 
> is a throwback to earlier generations of poets, who wore their 
> nonconformity as a badge and delighted in shocking the public. That 
> tradition, he says, fell away once poets began accepting university 
> teaching posts.
>
> "If you're a poet, you've earned the right to blow off whoever you want," 
> he said. "There used to be dozens of cranks and scolds, but there aren't 
> any anymore."
>
> But as much as he plays what he calls the "apostate poet" and brushes off 
> the work of better-known contemporaries - "very few famous poets are 
> interesting to me" - Mr. Kleinzahler's colleagues praise his poetry, if 
> not always him.
>
> Billy Collins, the former poet laureate of the United States, has been on 
> the receiving end of many of Mr. Kleinzahler's jabs but says that he 
> respects his work. "Apart from him personally, I really like his poetry," 
> said Mr. Collins, who teaches English at Lehman College in the Bronx.
>
> John Ashbery, one of contemporary poetry's most revered figures, is also a 
> Kleinzahler admirer. "I like the sort of m?lange of different voices and 
> tenses, the kind of street talk and modernist illusions and the kind of 
> jazz atmosphere and free improvisation," Mr. Ashbery said in a telephone 
> interview. "It's a warm and appealing voice."
>
> Mr. Ashbery said he didn't even find Mr. Kleinzahler disagreeable. "I 
> wouldn't think of him as a bad boy," he said. "I've always found him quite 
> charming." Mr. Ginsberg wrote in a blurb for one of Mr. Kleinzahler's 
> volumes of poetry: "August Kleinzahler's verse line is always precise, 
> concrete, intelligent and rare - that quality of 'chiseled' verse 
> memorable in Basil Bunting's and Ezra Pound's work. A loner, a genius."
>
> The poet has been living in San Francisco going on 25 years, but he is 
> northern New Jersey to the roots. (Mr. Kleinzahler's mother still lives in 
> Fort Lee, and he visits her regularly.)
>
> "The New Jersey character - at least this part of Jersey - is 
> straightforward, plainspoken to the point of bluntness, though not at all 
> unfriendly," he wrote in a recent essay. "The humor is deadpan, ironical, 
> playfully depreciating. Affectation is quickly and viscerally registered. 
> It's a beer-and-a-bump kind of place. There's a swagger, a bluff air of 
> menace that many of the males carry."
>
> In San Francisco, Mr. Kleinzahler once gave a panhandler a dollar. 
> "Thanks, Jersey," the man said.
>
> "How did you know I was from Jersey?" Mr. Kleinzahler asked.
>
> "Are you kidding?" the man asked.
>
> He has published nine volumes of poetry beginning with "The Sausage Master 
> of Minsk" in 1977. His most recent collection, "The Strange Hours 
> Travelers Keep" (Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2003) won the Griffin Prize.
>
> In last year's prose collection, "Cutty, One Rock," Mr. Kleinzahler tells 
> the story of his older brother, Harris, whose life played out like a 
> romantic poet's - except that Harris was a financial analyst by day and a 
> hustler by night. Harris, whose preferred beverage was Cutty Sark Scotch 
> with a single ice cube, committed suicide at 27.
>
> "It's not as if he didn't understand that much of his behavior was driven 
> by desperation and self-hate," Mr. Kleinzahler wrote. "He wasn't shallow 
> or unreflective, quite the contrary. It was simply the way he was. He was 
> born wild, born troubled. He wasn't designed for the long haul; not 
> everyone is."
>
> After his Fort Lee childhood, Mr. Kleinzahler embarked on a sort of 
> migrant's life. He dropped out of the University of Wisconsin, lived on a 
> commune, hitchhiked across the country and worked as a lumberjack and taxi 
> driver.
>
> "I was bored by everything," he said. "I just felt stuck watching the 
> second hand of the clock. I wasn't interested in anything else but poetry 
> and books."
>
> "I've avoided the structures of conventional work and marriage," he said. 
> "I like to make myself available to chance." (Even so, after years of 
> bachelorhood Mr. Kleinzahler recently married Sarah Kobrinsky, 27, whom he 
> met last fall.) His poetry follows the same pattern: a reckless tumble of 
> words mixing the high and the low, like a rummage sale after the death of 
> someone who adored both Shakespeare and smut. People in the poems are in 
> transition, unable to find their footing.
>
> "On Waking in a Room and Not Knowing Where One Is," concludes:
>
> In a moment or two you will know
> exactly where you are,
> on which side the door,
> your wallet, your shoes,
> and what today you'll have to do.
> Cities each have a kind of light,
> a color even,
> or set of undertones
> determined by the river or hills
> as well as by the stone
> of their countless buildings.
> I cannot yet recall what city this is I'm in.
> It must be close to dawn.
>
> At Hiram's Mr. Kleinzahler, wearing a baseball cap and a weathered blue 
> rain slicker, blended easily among the locals. Every time a stranger 
> walked in, the place seemed to curl around itself like a rattlesnake.
>
> The restaurant has been in business since 1932 and is the same spot where 
> his father took his mother on dates.
>
> That afternoon, a woman at a nearby table scolded a man: "What did you 
> think would happen? You were missing for four days."
>
> Mr. Kleinzahler, the unofficial poet laureate of Fort Lee, seemed not to 
> hear. He held up his hot dog and surveyed it. "This," he said, "is a 
> beautiful thing."
>
>
> Hal
>
> Today's Special -- Hamilton Stone Review
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
>            halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> 


--------------------------------------------
My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.choicemailfree.com




From Kent.Johnson  Tue Aug  2 16:30:57 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:30:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more at Elsewhere
Message-ID: <s2ef91d1.099@mail.highland.edu>

posted today. Just wanting to keep this in the public record:

Gary,

That IS a pretty entertaining piece of passive aggressive retort there.
Good job! You haven't disappointed my expectations.

And nice quote from the Lucipo list. Though most of the book is quite
unlike that little riff (a pretty tame thing compared to most of my
listserv postings!), it is true that political horror, performance,
humor, anger, irony, fiction, and reality sometimes get uncomfortably
mixed up in some of the pieces of the book. And then I end up getting
all angry at myself for being unable to cleanly sort them out. No doubt
this is why most of the book fails as good, progressive "avant-garde
poetry." 

In any case, I salute your critical acumen.

And you are right that Chris highly exaggerates: the only thing related
to me on the web is indeed that old thing in the Boston Review, so I'm
sorry your Googling energies got distracted there. I've written Chris
and asked him what he was talking about. He probably did a Google search
for "Kent Johnson" and you know it's incredible how many Kent Johnsons
there are in the world.

So it's been most interesting, and I am glad Lyric Poetry after
Auschwitz: Eleven Submission to the War has had the kind of impact on
you that it has. Thank you for writing about it. You, it turns out, are
its first real "reviewer."

Kent





From chris.lott  Tue Aug  2 17:31:40 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:31:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <4cf8ba9533ce5345dd9df8b1289675ad@earthlink.net>
References: <1db.40c86752.30210b1f@aol.com>
	<4cf8ba9533ce5345dd9df8b1289675ad@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0508021431175c1970@mail.gmail.com>

Make it silk boxers for me...

c




From anny.ballardini  Tue Aug  2 17:46:41 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:46:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ah - The Sundials!
Message-ID: <00de01c597ab$ab4eff10$62ac3452@ANNY>

I had to translate this for a performance project, thought I should send it over,





". Gods should curse the one who learned

How to subdivide time. Be cursed

Also the one who built a sundial in these

Lands, by miserably and in small fragments

Reducing my days! When

I was a kid, the sundial was my stomach

Much safer and exact tool, more precise

Than all others. It gave me the right time

For supper, when I had to eat

It called me. But now, poor me! I do not know why

Even if I feel the pangs of hunger, I cannot

Start eating without permission by the sun,

So full is town of these damned sundials".

 

 

 

Plautus (Boeotia)


_____________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Kent.Johnson  Tue Aug  2 17:59:10 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:59:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] last post on Elsewhere [quite amazing!]
Message-ID: <s2efa688.000@mail.highland.edu>

Well, the discussion didn't quite go the way Mr. Sullivan hoped, so he
did the democratic and honorable thing, erasing any record of the long
thread on Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz.

This little book is gathering an interesting history to it quick!

Kent



From chris.lott  Tue Aug  2 18:41:14 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:41:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] last post on Elsewhere [quite amazing!]
In-Reply-To: <s2efa688.000@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2efa688.000@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab050802154138112695@mail.gmail.com>

Someone posted this quote to their blog today: "But the job of thepoet is to make the reader want to care?to awaken his sympathy, notextort it."
I don't know about that, but replace "poet" with "reviewer" and youhave a good sound-bite retort that basically states my position on theChris Danielson piece.
I just hope the "controversy" spurs people to check the book out forthemselves rather than run ducking for cover...
c



From paul.lake  Tue Aug  2 12:10:01 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:10:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <111.4f3a38ef.3020fe29@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF150509.9B15%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/2/05 11:49 AM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> No better fighter until the advent of Tyson.
> His older brother Leon Spinks had his 15 minutes when he defeated Ali.
> Then lost is all to his old neighborhood bad habits.

Old Iron Mike dispatched Michael Spinks in the first 45 seconds of round
one, as I recall. I always like the Spinks brother, but was glad when Ali
took the crown back from big brother Leon.

Paul
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From paul.lake  Tue Aug  2 12:11:37 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:11:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <88.2bed2112.30210b91@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF150569.9B16%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/2/05 12:46 PM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 8/2/2005 12:50:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JforJames at aol.com writes:
>> In a message dated 8/2/2005 12:38:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>>> On 8/2/05 6:26 AM, "AlMaginnes at aol.com" <AlMaginnes at aol.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I was a Michael Moorer fan for a long while. I think poets might be drawn
>>>> to boxers who are flawed in some respect. It makes them more interesting.
>>> 
>>> I was a fan of George Foreman during his comeback and was delighted when he
>>> k. o.?d Moorer to win the title at age 45 I think it was?  Tommy Hearns just
>>> tko?d a young fighter at 46.
>> Being from St. Louis, light heavy Michael Spinks was one of my favorites. No
>> better fighter until the advent of Tyson.
>> His older brother Leon Spinks had his 15 minutes when he defeated Ali.
>> Then lost is all to his old neighborhood bad habits.
>> Finnegan
>> 
>> 
> Isn't Cory Spinks one of the Spinks brothers' sons?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

You?ve got me there. I don?t know.


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From AlMaginnes  Tue Aug  2 21:29:54 2005
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:29:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Spoken By One Who Knows
Message-ID: <206.64f7df2.30217812@aol.com>

?I don?t like to call myself a poet. Most poets are shiftless, no-account  
fools.?  August Kleinzhaler
 
It's cool. I don't like calling him a poet  either.
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From halvard  Tue Aug  2 21:29:56 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:29:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?
In-Reply-To: <007701c59792$568bf780$740d9942@Helen>
References: <7146022d5b6554010bf9a9332c300c1e@earthlink.net>
	<007701c59792$568bf780$740d9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <1120a57f6405ae2d50afd4f5c0442e79@earthlink.net>

Almost as great as AK's piece on Garrison Keillor, but
not quite.

Hal

Today's Special -- Hamilton Stone Review
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html

Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
            halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
On Aug 2, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

> Great piece.  Thanks for posting.
>
> h
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" 
> <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:36 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?
>
>
>> From:   halvard at earthlink.net
>> Subject: Teetering on the Edge of Respectability?
>> Date: August 1, 2005 10:35:21 PM EDT
>> To:   crewrt-l at interversity.org
>>
>> NYT, August 2, 2005
>> In Addition to His Pugnacity and Charm, He Can Write Poetry
>>
>> By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
>> On a gray and rainy day recently, the poet August Kleinzahler was 
>> eating a hot dog and greasy fries at a hot dog shop in Fort Lee, 
>> N.J., called Hiram's, a gruff, no-frills place that Mr. Kleinzahler 
>> says is about as close to the literary establishment across the river 
>> in Manhattan as he cares to be.
>>
>> But Mr. Kleinzahler, 55, noted both for poems that jarringly marry 
>> the high and the low and for keeping his distance from the New York 
>> illuminati, has found himself late in his career in a rather awkward 
>> spot: the cusp of respectability in the cliquish world of poetry.
>>
>> While those who pay no attention to poetry have probably never heard 
>> of him, Mr. Kleinzahler has gradually become a poetry star. His work 
>> is a modernist swirl of sex, surrealism, urban life and melancholy 
>> with a jazzy backbeat. His personality combines Allen Ginsberg's 
>> goofball charm and Norman Mailer's inveterate pugnacity.
>>
>> "I don't like to call myself a poet," Mr. Kleinzahler said with 
>> characteristic bluntness. "Most poets are shiftless, no-account 
>> fools."
>>
>> Nonetheless, two springs ago he won the Griffin Poetry Prize - a 
>> $40,000 award that is one of poetry's most lucrative honors. His 
>> recent collection of essays, "Cutty, One Rock" (Farrar, Straus & 
>> Giroux), received good reviews and will be released in paperback next 
>> year.
>>
>> His scathing and lengthy putdown in Poetry magazine last year of the 
>> radio show host and writer Garrison Keillor's middlebrow taste in 
>> verse both made him a defender of the faith and confirmed his 
>> reputation as a divisive figure. And even though he regularly 
>> excoriates university poetry programs as ineffectual, he will return 
>> as a guest lecturer at the University of Texas next spring, the first 
>> time he remembers being invited back anywhere.
>>
>> Mr. Kleinzahler, who was born in Fort Lee but now lives in San 
>> Francisco, is a throwback to earlier generations of poets, who wore 
>> their nonconformity as a badge and delighted in shocking the public. 
>> That tradition, he says, fell away once poets began accepting 
>> university teaching posts.
>>
>> "If you're a poet, you've earned the right to blow off whoever you 
>> want," he said. "There used to be dozens of cranks and scolds, but 
>> there aren't any anymore."
>>
>> But as much as he plays what he calls the "apostate poet" and brushes 
>> off the work of better-known contemporaries - "very few famous poets 
>> are interesting to me" - Mr. Kleinzahler's colleagues praise his 
>> poetry, if not always him.
>>
>> Billy Collins, the former poet laureate of the United States, has 
>> been on the receiving end of many of Mr. Kleinzahler's jabs but says 
>> that he respects his work. "Apart from him personally, I really like 
>> his poetry," said Mr. Collins, who teaches English at Lehman College 
>> in the Bronx.
>>
>> John Ashbery, one of contemporary poetry's most revered figures, is 
>> also a Kleinzahler admirer. "I like the sort of m?lange of different 
>> voices and tenses, the kind of street talk and modernist illusions 
>> and the kind of jazz atmosphere and free improvisation," Mr. Ashbery 
>> said in a telephone interview. "It's a warm and appealing voice."
>>
>> Mr. Ashbery said he didn't even find Mr. Kleinzahler disagreeable. "I 
>> wouldn't think of him as a bad boy," he said. "I've always found him 
>> quite charming." Mr. Ginsberg wrote in a blurb for one of Mr. 
>> Kleinzahler's volumes of poetry: "August Kleinzahler's verse line is 
>> always precise, concrete, intelligent and rare - that quality of 
>> 'chiseled' verse memorable in Basil Bunting's and Ezra Pound's work. 
>> A loner, a genius."
>>
>> The poet has been living in San Francisco going on 25 years, but he 
>> is northern New Jersey to the roots. (Mr. Kleinzahler's mother still 
>> lives in Fort Lee, and he visits her regularly.)
>>
>> "The New Jersey character - at least this part of Jersey - is 
>> straightforward, plainspoken to the point of bluntness, though not at 
>> all unfriendly," he wrote in a recent essay. "The humor is deadpan, 
>> ironical, playfully depreciating. Affectation is quickly and 
>> viscerally registered. It's a beer-and-a-bump kind of place. There's 
>> a swagger, a bluff air of menace that many of the males carry."
>>
>> In San Francisco, Mr. Kleinzahler once gave a panhandler a dollar. 
>> "Thanks, Jersey," the man said.
>>
>> "How did you know I was from Jersey?" Mr. Kleinzahler asked.
>>
>> "Are you kidding?" the man asked.
>>
>> He has published nine volumes of poetry beginning with "The Sausage 
>> Master of Minsk" in 1977. His most recent collection, "The Strange 
>> Hours Travelers Keep" (Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2003) won the Griffin 
>> Prize.
>>
>> In last year's prose collection, "Cutty, One Rock," Mr. Kleinzahler 
>> tells the story of his older brother, Harris, whose life played out 
>> like a romantic poet's - except that Harris was a financial analyst 
>> by day and a hustler by night. Harris, whose preferred beverage was 
>> Cutty Sark Scotch with a single ice cube, committed suicide at 27.
>>
>> "It's not as if he didn't understand that much of his behavior was 
>> driven by desperation and self-hate," Mr. Kleinzahler wrote. "He 
>> wasn't shallow or unreflective, quite the contrary. It was simply the 
>> way he was. He was born wild, born troubled. He wasn't designed for 
>> the long haul; not everyone is."
>>
>> After his Fort Lee childhood, Mr. Kleinzahler embarked on a sort of 
>> migrant's life. He dropped out of the University of Wisconsin, lived 
>> on a commune, hitchhiked across the country and worked as a 
>> lumberjack and taxi driver.
>>
>> "I was bored by everything," he said. "I just felt stuck watching the 
>> second hand of the clock. I wasn't interested in anything else but 
>> poetry and books."
>>
>> "I've avoided the structures of conventional work and marriage," he 
>> said. "I like to make myself available to chance." (Even so, after 
>> years of bachelorhood Mr. Kleinzahler recently married Sarah 
>> Kobrinsky, 27, whom he met last fall.) His poetry follows the same 
>> pattern: a reckless tumble of words mixing the high and the low, like 
>> a rummage sale after the death of someone who adored both Shakespeare 
>> and smut. People in the poems are in transition, unable to find their 
>> footing.
>>
>> "On Waking in a Room and Not Knowing Where One Is," concludes:
>>
>> In a moment or two you will know
>> exactly where you are,
>> on which side the door,
>> your wallet, your shoes,
>> and what today you'll have to do.
>> Cities each have a kind of light,
>> a color even,
>> or set of undertones
>> determined by the river or hills
>> as well as by the stone
>> of their countless buildings.
>> I cannot yet recall what city this is I'm in.
>> It must be close to dawn.
>>
>> At Hiram's Mr. Kleinzahler, wearing a baseball cap and a weathered 
>> blue rain slicker, blended easily among the locals. Every time a 
>> stranger walked in, the place seemed to curl around itself like a 
>> rattlesnake.
>>
>> The restaurant has been in business since 1932 and is the same spot 
>> where his father took his mother on dates.
>>
>> That afternoon, a woman at a nearby table scolded a man: "What did 
>> you think would happen? You were missing for four days."
>>
>> Mr. Kleinzahler, the unofficial poet laureate of Fort Lee, seemed not 
>> to hear. He held up his hot dog and surveyed it. "This," he said, "is 
>> a beautiful thing."
>>
>>
>> Hal
>>
>> Today's Special -- Hamilton Stone Review
>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html
>>
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ================
>> email: halvard at earthlink.net
>>            halvard at gmail.com
>> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and 
> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail 
> from www.choicemailfree.com
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From elemenope  Wed Aug  3 14:08:03 2005
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 02:08:03 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anny B's Plautus Went Swimming To Escape Time #16
In-Reply-To: <200508031600.j73G04HC027239@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200508031600.j73G04HC027239@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100301bf16b6fedde6@[204.215.201.194]>

If Plautus had only foreseen what Time would come to by the way we 
count it presently: Timeclocks - - he'd be very displeased.  Typical 
poet, Plautus likes to check in when he feels like it.  To watch his 
wrist and see where the shadow falls: that's not Plautus' style.  It 
wasn't way back then, and wouldn't be now.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n

>Message: 16
>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:46:41 +0200
>From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>
>
>I had to translate this for a performance project, thought I should 
>send it over,
>
>
>
>
>
>". Gods should curse the one who learned
>
>How to subdivide time. Be cursed
>
>Also the one who built a sundial in these
>
>Lands, by miserably and in small fragments
>
>Reducing my days! When
>
>I was a kid, the sundial was my stomach
>
>Much safer and exact tool, more precise
>
>Than all others. It gave me the right time
>
>For supper, when I had to eat
>
>It called me. But now, poor me! I do not know why
>
>Even if I feel the pangs of hunger, I cannot
>
>Start eating without permission by the sun,
>
>So full is town of these damned sundials".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Plautus (Boeotia)

-- 



From anny.ballardini  Wed Aug  3 14:48:31 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:48:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anny B's Plautus Went Swimming To Escape Time #16
References: <200508031600.j73G04HC027239@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100301bf16b6fedde6@[204.215.201.194]>
Message-ID: <001201c5985b$f2af0750$56d63152@ANNY>


Hi Richard,

I think, as you said, that there are plenty of Plautus(es - or Plauti) 
around here, not to mention the double alarm clock that drags you out of 
Morpheus' arms to force you into traffic, chit-chat tel-calls and all the 
connected diabolical twinkling clanging inventions intermittently scattered 
along time_
yes, bucolic for the occasion, a couple of sheep (clouds) grazing against 
the spectacularly clear sunset this evening I can peep through the 
buildings,
Anny


From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" <elemenope at icubed.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:08 PM
Swimming To Escape Time #16


> If Plautus had only foreseen what Time would come to by the way we count 
> it presently: Timeclocks - - he'd be very displeased.  Typical poet, 
> Plautus likes to check in when he feels like it.  To watch his wrist and 
> see where the shadow falls: that's not Plautus' style.  It wasn't way back 
> then, and wouldn't be now.
>
> R i c h a r d  D i l l o n
>
>>Message: 16
>>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:46:41 +0200
>>From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>>
>>
>>I had to translate this for a performance project, thought I should send 
>>it over,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>". Gods should curse the one who learned
>>
>>How to subdivide time. Be cursed
>>
>>Also the one who built a sundial in these
>>
>>Lands, by miserably and in small fragments
>>
>>Reducing my days! When
>>
>>I was a kid, the sundial was my stomach
>>
>>Much safer and exact tool, more precise
>>
>>Than all others. It gave me the right time
>>
>>For supper, when I had to eat
>>
>>It called me. But now, poor me! I do not know why
>>
>>Even if I feel the pangs of hunger, I cannot
>>
>>Start eating without permission by the sun,
>>
>>So full is town of these damned sundials".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Plautus (Boeotia)
>
> -- 





From spearlstein  Wed Aug  3 16:12:46 2005
From: spearlstein (spearlstein at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:12:46 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anny B's Plautus Went Swimming To Escape Time #16
Message-ID: <080320052012.20013.42F1253D0009E42A00004E2D220076143802070A9B9C049D0E0A9F9C@comcast.net>

Thank-you, Anny, I enjoyed hearing the way Plautas apparently felt the sundials vivisected the body of time  (bad pun, sorry).   He kinda put flesh on the sense of the day before some version of technology.  And yes, it really does make you think about all the encumbrances to an immediate sense of something as elemental as the passing of time.    Reading some kind of parallel to my trepidations about being bound to a cell phone and its' attendant clock (I magically 'forget' to wear my watch on a regular basis)  and all the accessories which now come with it, tho' oy, I am no luddite, the camera-phone, for instance, is a lil' much for lil' old me  for now, anyways I wonder if these appliances are really useful and offer greater choices for us mere humans or whether or not the whimsical side of being a writer of some kind which shuts off all sense of time while focused isn't really the worlds' biggest gift to those of us who enjoy this eerie sense of detachment from the delimitations of time and of the worldly things which its' passing reminds us of.
Anyways, thank-you for what feels like a graceful translation.   (I am usually a lurker, though now and again I poke my head up and say something for those wondering about the source of this musing).

Namaste,
           Sarah Pearlstein

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> 
> Hi Richard, 
> 
> I think, as you said, that there are plenty of Plautus(es - or Plauti) 
> around here, not to mention the double alarm clock that drags you out of 
> Morpheus' arms to force you into traffic, chit-chat tel-calls and all the 
> connected diabolical twinkling clanging inventions intermittently scattered 
> along time_ 
> yes, bucolic for the occasion, a couple of sheep (clouds) grazing against 
> the spectacularly clear sunset this evening I can peep through the 
> buildings, 
> Anny 
> 
> 
> From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:08 PM 
> Swimming To Escape Time #16 
> 
> 
> > If Plautus had only foreseen what Time would come to by the way we count 
> > it presently: Timeclocks - - he'd be very displeased. Typical poet, 
> > Plautus likes to check in when he feels like it. To watch his wrist and 
> > see where the shadow falls: that's not Plautus' style. It wasn't way back 
> > then, and wouldn't be now. 
> > 
> > R i c h a r d D i l l o n 
> > 
> >>Message: 16 
> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:46:41 +0200 
> >>From: "Anny Ballardini" 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>I had to translate this for a performance project, thought I should send 
> >>it over, 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>". Gods should curse the one who learned 
> >> 
> >>How to subdivide time. Be cursed 
> >> 
> >>Also the one who built a sundial in these 
> >> 
> >>Lands, by miserably and in small fragments 
> >> 
> >>Reducing my days! When 
> >> 
> >>I was a kid, the sundial was my stomach 
> >> 
> >>Much safer and exact tool, more precise 
> >> 
> >>Than all others. It gave me the right time 
> >> 
> >>For supper, when I had to eat 
> >> 
> >>It called me. But now, poor me! I do not know why 
> >> 
> >>Even if I feel the pangs of hunger, I cannot 
> >> 
> >>Start eating without permission by the sun, 
> >> 
> >>So full is town of these damned sundials". 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>Plautus (Boeotia) 
> > 
> > -- 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> New-Poetry mailing list 
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
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From grahamd  Wed Aug  3 17:00:00 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:00:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth at 84
Message-ID: <BF169A80.13355%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Hayden Carruth's birthday seems worthy of notice, wouldn't you say?  Born
this day in 1921.



I, I, I


First, the self. Then, the observing self.
The self that acts and the self that watches. This
The starting point, the place where the mind begins,
Whether the mind of an individual or
The mind of a species. When I was a boy
I struggled to understand. For if I know
The self that watches, another watching self
Must see the watcher, then another watching that,
Another and another, and where does it end?
So my mother sent me to the barber shop,
My first time, to get my hair "cut for a part"
(Instead of the dutch boy she'd always given me),
As I was instructed to tell the barber. She
Dispatched me on my own because the shop,
Which had a pool table in the back, in that
Small town was the men's club, and no woman
Would venture there. Was it my first excursion
On my own into the world? Perhaps. I sat
In the big chair. The wall behind me held
A huge mirror, and so did the one in front,
So that I saw my own small strange blond head
With its oriental eyes and turned up nose repeated
In ever diminishing images, one behind
Another behind another, and I tried
To peer farther and farther into the succession
To see the farthest one, diminutive in
The shadows. I could not. I sat rigid
And said no word. The fat barber snipped
My hair and blew his brusque breath on my nape
And finally whisked away his sheet, and I
climbed down. I ran from that cave of mirrors
A mile and a half to home, to my own room
Up under the eaves, which was another cave.
It had no mirrors. I no longer needed mirrors.

--Hayden Carruth


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From anny.ballardini  Wed Aug  3 17:07:18 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:07:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth at 84
References: <BF169A80.13355%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <000801c5986f$5551e770$56d63152@ANNY>

Excellent choice, thank you

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:00 PM


> Hayden Carruth's birthday seems worthy of notice, wouldn't you say?  Born
> this day in 1921.
> 
> 
> 
> I, I, I
> 
> 
> First, the self. Then, the observing self.
> The self that acts and the self that watches. This
> The starting point, the place where the mind begins,
> Whether the mind of an individual or
> The mind of a species. When I was a boy
> I struggled to understand. For if I know
> The self that watches, another watching self
> Must see the watcher, then another watching that,
> Another and another, and where does it end?
> So my mother sent me to the barber shop,
> My first time, to get my hair "cut for a part"
> (Instead of the dutch boy she'd always given me),
> As I was instructed to tell the barber. She
> Dispatched me on my own because the shop,
> Which had a pool table in the back, in that
> Small town was the men's club, and no woman
> Would venture there. Was it my first excursion
> On my own into the world? Perhaps. I sat
> In the big chair. The wall behind me held
> A huge mirror, and so did the one in front,
> So that I saw my own small strange blond head
> With its oriental eyes and turned up nose repeated
> In ever diminishing images, one behind
> Another behind another, and I tried
> To peer farther and farther into the succession
> To see the farthest one, diminutive in
> The shadows. I could not. I sat rigid
> And said no word. The fat barber snipped
> My hair and blew his brusque breath on my nape
> And finally whisked away his sheet, and I
> climbed down. I ran from that cave of mirrors
> A mile and a half to home, to my own room
> Up under the eaves, which was another cave.
> It had no mirrors. I no longer needed mirrors.
> 
> --Hayden Carruth
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 




From Kent.Johnson  Wed Aug  3 19:08:53 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:08:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] new review of Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
Message-ID: <s2f10846.078@mail.highland.edu>

A very nice commentary by Jon Leon, from Atlanta, at Hotel Point:

http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/



From chan_jt  Thu Aug  4 03:18:00 2005
From: chan_jt (JT Chan)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:18:00 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Free e-book (Telling Them Apart)
Message-ID: <BAY23-F383844071575C7E40FAFE38AC40@phx.gbl>

Telling Them Apart, my second collection of poetry, is available as a free
e-book at http://www.lulu.com/content/146768 . The theme focuses on the
mystical and the heart of engaging in the world of the unseen.

Thanks.

regards

Jill Chan

_________________________________________________________________
Read the latest Hollywood gossip  @  http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment




From uche  Thu Aug  4 09:24:48 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:24:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Lists Exist
In-Reply-To: <013b01c5952a$fbff3a20$e6ae3252@ANNY>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
	<11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY><1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>
	<007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta>
	<013b01c5952a$fbff3a20$e6ae3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1123161888.31001.81.camel@malatesta>

Still behind on the list...

On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 19:20 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> One more message and I will finally get out of here, translating a contract 
> is not the best way to smile to life. I realize you have incredible 
> technical skills, thus please accept my
> 
> _Lament_
> 
> what would I do without the internet
> caught & strangled by petty chat
> locked at the bottom of valleys in a tiny town
> where the one upstairs gets out in her night gown
> _good morning_ you hear but that's more an
> _how can you please me - thing danging
> in your ears before coffee time
> 
> ah the net with all those multiple facets
> am I speaking is it you you said it or I?
> 
> I would weep from here to the Nile
> should my screen wink and say good-bye
> 
> 
> A nice Saturday, and thanks Uche for bringing it all up,

Why thanks, Anny.  I like how you worked in a couple of other recent
flame-worthy themes from this list.

My newest son's [1] name means "peace reigns".  Well: Fiat!

[1] http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/family

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Thu Aug  4 09:37:58 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:37:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <06E3C08B-F7D7-432C-984B-6EA26C0D26C5@mac.com>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
	<11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY>
	<1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>
	<007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta>
	<06E3C08B-F7D7-432C-984B-6EA26C0D26C5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1123162678.31001.94.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 14:35 -0400, Michael Snider wrote:
> Uche, I sympathize with your desire to insulate scientific work from  
> the bizarre morality of the religious right, but in fact science  
> answers "why" questions all the time -- including "Why are there  
> people?"  -- usually by turning them into "how" questions and  
> demonstrating that intention, divine or not, has little or nothing to  
> do with what's going on. People are here because of physical law and  
> history unfolding in acordance with that law. Like Topsy, they "just  
> grew."

I'm sorry I don't have time to carry this debate on all the way (I
suppose others are perhaps not sorry because it's off topic), but this
is a common mischaracterization of science.  That is not to say that
some scientists have not spoken as if they cover all of phenomenology,
but such scientists are simply wrong (there are a very many scientists,
after all, and they are all human), and are contradicted by the very
long tradition of science's limitations.  It's interesting that these
limitations were originally forged in part as a defense mechanism: to
protect scientists from claims of heresy, but regardless of the reason,
it has persisted quite firmly.

I also want to make it clear, since you mentioned Dennett, that
scientific essays is not identical to science.  Dennett is an outright
philosopher, not scientists.  Folks such as Gould, Hawkins, Feynman,
etc. are free to mix philosophy and even religion into their writing,
but that writing is not pure science.  It would not survive the first
glance of peer review for refereed citation, for example.

Just because science excludes philosophy and religion does not mean that
scientists cannot be philosophical and religious.  Just because I like
to snowboard and also to play soccer does not mean that snowboarding is
about kicking a ball about a grassy field.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From anny.ballardini  Thu Aug  4 09:40:58 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:40:58 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Lists Exist
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu>
	<42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost><3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu><11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY><1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta><007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY><1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta><013b01c5952a$fbff3a20$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<1123161888.31001.81.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <007b01c598fa$25b63030$16a93852@ANNY>

Hey Uche,

congratulations to you and Lori, what a joy. And to Udoka Julian Melayo 
Ogbuji a most welcome onboard,

with such a name he'll have a great life, indeed-
Anny


From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
&amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Lists Exist


> Still behind on the list...
>
> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 19:20 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>> One more message and I will finally get out of here, translating a 
>> contract
>> is not the best way to smile to life. I realize you have incredible
>> technical skills, thus please accept my
>>
>> _Lament_
>>
>> what would I do without the internet
>> caught & strangled by petty chat
>> locked at the bottom of valleys in a tiny town
>> where the one upstairs gets out in her night gown
>> _good morning_ you hear but that's more an
>> _how can you please me - thing danging
>> in your ears before coffee time
>>
>> ah the net with all those multiple facets
>> am I speaking is it you you said it or I?
>>
>> I would weep from here to the Nile
>> should my screen wink and say good-bye
>>
>>
>> A nice Saturday, and thanks Uche for bringing it all up,
>
> Why thanks, Anny.  I like how you worked in a couple of other recent
> flame-worthy themes from this list.
>
> My newest son's [1] name means "peace reigns".  Well: Fiat!
>
> [1] http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/keyword/family
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From paul.lake  Thu Aug  4 05:33:47 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 04:33:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Sappho
Message-ID: <BF174B2B.9B3B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

A little while back, there were some posts on the discovery of a complete
new poem by Sappho. Here's a new translation of it by Jim Powell, reprinted
below with his permission.

Paul Lake



THE WIFE OF TITHONUS


The violet-lapped Muses' lovely gifts belong
to you now, children, and the piercing lyre, the friend of song.

My body that, before, was supple, age already
has taken by surprise, my raven tresses are turned white,

my spirit has grown heavy and my knees too weak
to carry me, that once were quick to dance as fawns.

I grumble at them frequently but what good does that do?
For human beings to be ageless is not possible.

They say that once, ignited by desire, the Dawn
carried Tithonus in her rosy arms to the world's end

when he was young and handsome, but all the same in time
gray age caught up with him, although he had a goddess for his wife.


  Sappho

Translated by Jim Powell



Note:  The Wife Of Tithonus translates the new, nearly complete text of
Sappho LP 58 as published by M.L. West in the Times Literary Supplement (No.
5334, June 24, 2005).




From marcus  Thu Aug  4 12:39:38 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:39:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Sappho
In-Reply-To: <BF174B2B.9B3B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <42F20C8A.28282.131FF53@localhost>

"raven tresses"?
yeesh
Marcus


On 4 Aug 2005 at 4:33, Paul Lake wrote:

> A little while back, there were some posts on the discovery of a complete
> new poem by Sappho. Here's a new translation of it by Jim Powell, reprinted
> below with his permission.
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> 
> 
> THE WIFE OF TITHONUS
> 
> 
> The violet-lapped Muses' lovely gifts belong
> to you now, children, and the piercing lyre, the friend of song.
> 
> My body that, before, was supple, age already
> has taken by surprise, my raven tresses are turned white,
> 
> my spirit has grown heavy and my knees too weak
> to carry me, that once were quick to dance as fawns.
> 
> I grumble at them frequently but what good does that do?
> For human beings to be ageless is not possible.
> 
> They say that once, ignited by desire, the Dawn
> carried Tithonus in her rosy arms to the world's end
> 
> when he was young and handsome, but all the same in time
> gray age caught up with him, although he had a goddess for his wife.
> 
> 
>   Sappho
> 
> Translated by Jim Powell
> 
> 
> 
> Note:  The Wife Of Tithonus translates the new, nearly complete text of
> Sappho LP 58 as published by M.L. West in the Times Literary Supplement (No.
> 5334, June 24, 2005).
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From grahamd  Thu Aug  4 13:14:09 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:14:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke/ Primal Ear
In-Reply-To: <1e.4a81afef.30203dff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF17B711.13387%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 8/1/05 10:09 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com at AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote:

Beyond that, I'm not sure what Kirsch is on about when he speaks of the
failure of Roethke's later work. For my money, "North American Sequence"
remains one of the great acheivements of American poetry.
____________________________________________________


I'm late to this discussion, having been on the road and off line, but amen,
amen.  "North American Sequence" is a high point of 20th C. poetry for me.

The newly selected Roethke volume edited by Edward Hirsch is very very good,
I think, especially in highlighting Roethke's best work.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From tad  Thu Aug  4 13:58:36 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:58:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy birthday
Message-ID: <002901c5991e$26a0fb00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Percy Bysshe Shelley.


 
Song-To the Men of England

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       
  Men of England, wherefore plough
  For the lords who lay ye low?
  Wherefore weave with toil and care
  The rich robes your tyrants wear?

  Wherefore feed and clothe and save,
  From the cradle to the grave,
  Those ungrateful drones who would
  Drain your sweat -nay, drink your blood?

  Wherefore, Bees of England, forge
  Many a weapon, chain, and scourge,
  That these stingless drones may spoil
  The forced produce of your toil?

  Have ye leisure, comfort, calm,
  Shelter, food, love's gentle balm?
  Or what is it ye buy so dear
  With your pain and with your fear?

  The seed ye sow another reaps;
  The wealth ye find another keeps;
  The robes ye weave another wears;
  The arms ye forge another bears.

  Sow seed, -but let no tyrant reap;
  Find wealth, -let no imposter heap;
  Weave robes, -let not the idle wear;
  Forge arms, in your defence to bear.

  Shrink to your cellars, holes, and cells;
  In halls ye deck another dwells.
  Why shake the chains ye wrought? Ye see
  The steel ye tempered glance on ye.

  With plough and spade and hoe and loom,
  Trace your grave, and build your tomb,
  And weave your winding-sheet, till fair
  England be your sepulchre!

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From anny.ballardini  Thu Aug  4 14:09:48 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:09:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Sappho
References: <42F20C8A.28282.131FF53@localhost>
Message-ID: <004001c5991f$b41247e0$39ad3252@ANNY>

A beautiful image, raven black, so dark it is as if it was a flame,

thank you Paul, very appreciated. I love this poem,

Anny

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
&amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Sappho


> "raven tresses"?
> yeesh
> Marcus
>
>
> On 4 Aug 2005 at 4:33, Paul Lake wrote:
>
>> A little while back, there were some posts on the discovery of a complete
>> new poem by Sappho. Here's a new translation of it by Jim Powell, 
>> reprinted
>> below with his permission.
>>
>> Paul Lake
>>
>>
>>
>> THE WIFE OF TITHONUS
>>
>>
>> The violet-lapped Muses' lovely gifts belong
>> to you now, children, and the piercing lyre, the friend of song.
>>
>> My body that, before, was supple, age already
>> has taken by surprise, my raven tresses are turned white,
>>
>> my spirit has grown heavy and my knees too weak
>> to carry me, that once were quick to dance as fawns.
>>
>> I grumble at them frequently but what good does that do?
>> For human beings to be ageless is not possible.
>>
>> They say that once, ignited by desire, the Dawn
>> carried Tithonus in her rosy arms to the world's end
>>
>> when he was young and handsome, but all the same in time
>> gray age caught up with him, although he had a goddess for his wife.
>>
>>
>>   Sappho
>>
>> Translated by Jim Powell
>>
>>
>>
>> Note:  The Wife Of Tithonus translates the new, nearly complete text of
>> Sappho LP 58 as published by M.L. West in the Times Literary Supplement 
>> (No.
>> 5334, June 24, 2005).





From AlMaginnes  Thu Aug  4 15:10:02 2005
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:10:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Roethke/ Primal Ear
Message-ID: <c1.5d9f787a.3023c20a@aol.com>

 
I just got my New Yorker so I can read the whole essay but am already  
pondering a letter protesting Kirsh's statement. Though he's welcome to think  what 
he likes I guess.
 
In a message dated 8/4/2005 1:13:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

on  8/1/05 10:09 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com at AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote:

Beyond that, I'm not sure what Kirsch is on about when  he speaks of the 
failure of Roethke's later work. For my money, "North  American Sequence" remains 
one of the great acheivements of American poetry.  
____________________________________________________


I'm  late to this discussion, having been on the road and off line, but amen, 
amen.  "North American Sequence" is a high point of 20th C. poetry for  me.

The newly selected Roethke volume edited by Edward Hirsch is very  very good, 
I think, especially in highlighting Roethke's best work.  

====================================================
David  Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home  Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry  Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






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From editor  Thu Aug  4 16:19:06 2005
From: editor (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:19:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists 
Message-ID: <200508042019.j74KJ6GL005928@mail5.atl.registeredsite.com>

.


Poetry exists because it is in our nature to make play of our surplus.  


Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  


.




From uche  Thu Aug  4 19:25:42 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:25:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Genghis Khan's Definition of Poetry
In-Reply-To: <a05100304bf1175ab594f@[204.215.202.67]>
References: <a05100304bf1175ab594f@[204.215.202.67]>
Message-ID: <1123197942.31001.105.camel@malatesta>

On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 02:26 +0800, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
> Ghengis Khan would be preferable to the monster idiot, Mugabe.

Which means what, with regard to my point?  Who is preferring either?

> G.K. 
> recognized and rewarded talent and competency.  Mugabe destroys it in 
> the name of what-you-want-to-call-it "Thug-Utopianism."  G.K. wd hv 
> known what to do with Al Q, as well.  Come to think of it, G.K. wd hv 
> known what to do with Senator MoonBat Durbin.  Yeah.  Bring back the 
> Khans, Genghis and Kublai.  And, Coleridge, bring him back, too!

Umm.  OK.  Whatever.

> As to this:
> 
> >Your point about its not being very telling in this debate stands: we
> >define what poetry, and dictionaries, even the best ones, merely
> >document that definition.
> 
> I didn't extract my definition from the dictionary.
> 
> Read the entire thread and read my post more closely; deal with it, 
> if you care, on its own terms.

I read the thread the fist time.  Thanks.

> The dictionary is merely a tool. 

Which is what I said.  Oh well.  You claim I'm not understanding you
(and with regard to your first paragraph, you're right).  I say you're
not understanding me.  I'm done with the woe.  I'll just move on, after
clearing up one matter:

> Other ways exist to get to the same evaluation, and its the 
> evaluation that is apposite not the ad hominem-like non sequitors.

Again I think you're barely making sense, but do you happen to be
claiming that I was making ad hominem arguments?  If so can you prove
this with a quote?


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Thu Aug  4 19:45:59 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:45:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
In-Reply-To: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 04:20 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
> For the past few years I've been writing metrical lines that rhyme
> irregularly.  Don't know why, exactly, but I'm so busy pursuing the sense of
> what I'm saying that I let myself rhyme where it feels right instead of
> where a pattern demands.  Don't know what the ultimate judgment of such a
> practice will be, but it's been fun using rhyme without the obligation to
> always make it fit an exact pattern.

I think it's very useful to treat rhyme as a form of additional
emphasis, rather than the sine qua non of a particular form.  For my
part, I've been doing more of an equivalence between para-rhyme (i.e.
Owen's "Strange Meeting") and "pure" rhyme as a way to expand the
repertoire of English word rhymes.  But this still doesn't offer the
abundance (and thus natural feel) of rhyme in, say French or Italian, so
I've also been tending in the direction you mention.

Not that it's really apropos, but I'll also mention that I like the
tendency to partial refrains that I've seen in verse by folks in this
group, in both formal or free verse.  I think it's one of the richest
and yet most neglected devices in any language.  I think it would be
interesting to see more of refrain as inert chorus rather than just
clever incorporation of refrain into the meaning of the poem.  Yes this
would be a matter of reverting to ancient practice, but I'm curious as
to whether it would work for the modern ear.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com






From robin.hamilton2  Thu Aug  4 20:26:15 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 01:26:15 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
References: <a05100304bf1175ab594f@[204.215.202.67]>
	<1123197942.31001.105.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <211301c59954$4cf25660$42169c51@Robin>

I don't often do this (as it seems mildly discourteous to say the least, as well as self-indulgent) but ...

I posted an earlier version of the following quatrain to another list (and my apologies to anyone here who has already seen it).  

It was intended as an intervention in a debate on metrics, but was greeted with a stunning silence. Now, I'm not complaining about that, but I'm left with a problem.  I got a couple of compliments, but more importantly a long (backchannel) response from a friend who said she liked the poem but found it metrically totally incoherent.

Fair, and a useful response, but it leaves the problem:

        (1)   Did I simply fail to write a quatrain in dipodic metre?

...  or

        (2)   Is dipodic metre now totally counter-intuitive?

Not a question I find I can answer from the inside, which is why I'm inflicting this on New Poetry.

                                        Robin

            I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
                        "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
            This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
                        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
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From grahamd  Thu Aug  4 23:52:31 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:52:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Copland quoted
Message-ID: <BF184CAF.133A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Does anyone know the source for the following quotation from Aaron Copland,
which made a cameo appearance in a recent *New Yorker*?

"The composer who is frightened of losing his artistic integrity through
contact with a mass audience is no longer aware of the meaning of the word
art."

--Aaron Copland, 1941.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From poetry  Fri Aug  5 06:36:14 2005
From: poetry (wild honey press)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:36:14 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
References: <a05100304bf1175ab594f@[204.215.202.67]><1123197942.31001.105.camel@malatesta>
	<211301c59954$4cf25660$42169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <007901c599a9$afda01b0$0601a8c0@hppavilion>

Seems metrically very lucid to me.

Dunno about dipodic metres being counter-intuitive. Perhaps more to 
practitioners / mucho readers than to punters where the sheer mass of 
possibility can veil the "obvious" than to punters. Skipping rhymes live.

best

Randolph

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:26 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain


I don't often do this (as it seems mildly discourteous to say the least, as 
well as self-indulgent) but ...

I posted an earlier version of the following quatrain to another list (and 
my apologies to anyone here who has already seen it).

It was intended as an intervention in a debate on metrics, but was greeted 
with a stunning silence. Now, I'm not complaining about that, but I'm left 
with a problem.  I got a couple of compliments, but more importantly a long 
(backchannel) response from a friend who said she liked the poem but found 
it metrically totally incoherent.

Fair, and a useful response, but it leaves the problem:

        (1)   Did I simply fail to write a quatrain in dipodic metre?

...  or

        (2)   Is dipodic metre now totally counter-intuitive?

Not a question I find I can answer from the inside, which is why I'm 
inflicting this on New Poetry.

                                        Robin

            I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
                        "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's 
very hard to see."
            This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
                        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble 
bites my bone.


__________ NOD32 1.1186 (20050804) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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> 




From Rsgwynn1  Fri Aug  5 07:47:13 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:47:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
Message-ID: <1c4.2dbc9a9d.3024abc1@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/4/2005 7:27:23 PM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
>             I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
>                         "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's 
> very hard to see."
>             This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
>                         But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble 
> bites my bone.
> 
But I draw the line at cobbles when a cobble bites my bone.
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From halvard  Fri Aug  5 08:49:03 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:49:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Copland quoted
In-Reply-To: <BF184CAF.133A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BF184CAF.133A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9850847ef5316d5af2446681a879d547@earthlink.net>

That's probably from an autobiography he published in 1941. Don't
know the title or whether it's still in print. Copland's Piano Sonata
dates from the same year and might make more sense.

Hal

On Aug 4, 2005, at 11:52 PM, David Graham wrote:

> Does anyone know the source for the following quotation from Aaron 
> Copland,
> which made a cameo appearance in a recent *New Yorker*?
>
> "The composer who is frightened of losing his artistic integrity 
> through
> contact with a mass audience is no longer aware of the meaning of the 
> word
> art."
>
> --Aaron Copland, 1941.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Hal

Today's Special

G(e)nome
http://www.xpressed.org/fall03/genome.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug  5 10:25:16 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:25:16 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
References: <a05100304bf1175ab594f@[204.215.202.67]><1123197942.31001.105.camel@malatesta><211301c59954$4cf25660$42169c51@Robin>
	<007901c599a9$afda01b0$0601a8c0@hppavilion>
Message-ID: <220901c599c9$80be0460$42169c51@Robin>

> Seems metrically very lucid to me.

Thanks, Randolph.

> Dunno about dipodic metres being counter-intuitive. Perhaps more to
> practitioners / mucho readers than to punters where the sheer mass of
> possibility can veil the "obvious" than to punters. Skipping rhymes live.

"Skipping rhymes live" -- that puts it succinctly.  Wish I'd thought of it
myself, and now means that I know what to say to say if ever anyone asks me
to define dipodic metre.

Both shorter and clearer than saying, "The metre of the ballad and nursery
rhyme, based on a (functional) three stress (full, half, zero) distinction
[as opposed to the two-stress distinction in syllable accent metre], with an
again functional (as opposed to optional, as in iambic pentameter) medial
line-break."

Partly why I began to wonder if it's now counter-intuitive.  It took me long
enough (via a few pages in Attridge's +The Rhythms of English Poetry+) to
get my head around the idea -- if you're used to thinking and hearing
syllable-accent, it's another universe.

Incidentally (as this is a functionally American list, I guess I can ask
this) does John Crow Ransom write in dipodic metre?  I'm thinking
(obviously) of "Captain Carpenter" and to a lesser degree of "The
Equilibrists".  But really, generally in his poetry ...

Robin








From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug  5 10:33:48 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:33:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
References: <1c4.2dbc9a9d.3024abc1@cs.com>
Message-ID: <221c01c599ca$b1c74fc0$42169c51@Robin>

        "But I draw the line at cobbles when a cobble bites my bone."

Perfect, Sam -- I'll buy it!

I think I can now finally put this scrap of doggerel to bed.

I don't know whether I'd have got there without your help, but it sure as hell saves me time&trouble.

The rhythm of that last line has continued to niggle me through the revisions, but your rewrite clarifies it.

Thanks.

Robin

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From marcus  Fri Aug  5 08:31:52 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:31:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
In-Reply-To: <211301c59954$4cf25660$42169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <42F323F8.20216.62670A@localhost>

Robin Hamilton wrote:
> I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
>       "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
>This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
>        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.

I've never been sure what people mean when they say "dipodic", and 
after all the explanations, I'm still not sure. Here's how I scanned these 
lines when I first read them:


I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
/ - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
I was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME

      "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
/ - / - / - / - / - / - / - /
DO please PO et LEAVE your ANG uish OUT its VER y HARD to SEE

This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
- / - / - / - - - - - / - / - /
this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE

       But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
- - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.

The second line especially seemed out of sorts, so I read it over a few 
times trying to find a way to read the line that fit with how I heard the 
rhythm in the other three lines until I came up with this

I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
- - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME

      "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
/ - / - - - / - / - / - / - /
DO please PO et leave your ANG uish OUT it's VER y HARD to SEE

This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
- / - / - / - - - - / - / - /
this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE

       But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
- - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.

The claim that these lines are "dipodic", two-footed, that the unit of 
measure for this meter is two feet not one, seems notional at best to me. 
Perhaps tripodic?

Are they intended to be read this way

i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter said to ME

DO please poet leave your ANG uish out it's VER y hard to SEE

this MAY be bleeding OB vious that the WORLD is hard as STONE

but i DRAW the line at a COB ble when the COB ble bites my BONE.

so that "dipodic" means something like "bad writing", in that it just 
doesn't matter how many syllables there are or where the accents would 
fall in ordinary writing or speech, you just find two words with some 
natural emphasis and over-emphasize them?

Marcus












From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug  5 13:24:10 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:24:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
References: <42F323F8.20216.62670A@localhost>
Message-ID: <227601c599e2$7e84acd0$42169c51@Robin>

I'll try to get back to this at more (tedious) length later, Marcus, but at
first glance, what you're trying to do is scan a dipodic poem in terms of
syllable-accent metre.

As Randolph said, "Skipping rhymes live".

It's not just a different metre (as, say, the difference between iambic and
trochaic metres +within+ syllable-accent) but a different *metrical system*.

In rough chronological order in English:

    Alliterative Metre
    Stress Metre
    Syllable-Accent
    Dipodic
    Qualitative Metre (Sidney on, and never successfully except by Clough in
"Amours de Voyage")
    Syllabics
    Free Verse (that catch-all rat-bag of a term)

It would be gratifying if it weren't so predictable the response I've gotten
which is that regardless of the miniscule merits of my tiny piece of
doggerel, Randolph Healey and R.S.Gwynn seemed to have no problem
working-out where I was coming from, while you and Carol both exhibit total
blank incomprehension.

        50/50, and the obvious answer is never to write in dipodic metre in
2005.

Why I think dipodic metre might currently be counter-intuitive.

> I've never been sure what people mean when they say "dipodic", and
> after all the explanations, I'm still not sure.

Oh, lor' luv a duck, Marcus, it's dead simple -- dipodic metre works on a
functional three-stress system [think Humpty Dumpty] while syllable-accent
verse works on a two-stress system.

{Well, it does tend to get complicated since "dipodic" means something
different in classical (Greek/Roman) metrics to what it means in English.}

            ENOUGH!!!

When I become <Real Soon Now> the Ruler of the Sidereal Universe, absolutely
the +first+ rule I'm going to institute is that no one *ever* uses the term
"iambic pentameter" without a time tag included.

I can deal with (though not agree) that Aelfric's Homilies are verse not
prose, but when it comes to trying to engage with rabid a-historic
Platonists with seemingly no sense of place ...

        ... god give me patience.

                        <g>

Robin

*****

Here's how I scanned these
> lines when I first read them:
>
>
> I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
> / - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
> I was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
>
>       "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
> / - / - / - / - / - / - / - /
> DO please PO et LEAVE your ANG uish OUT its VER y HARD to SEE
>
> This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
> - / - / - / - - - - - / - / - /
> this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
>
>        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
> - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
> but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
>
> The second line especially seemed out of sorts, so I read it over a few
> times trying to find a way to read the line that fit with how I heard the
> rhythm in the other three lines until I came up with this
>
> I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
> - - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
> i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
>
>       "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
> / - / - - - / - / - / - / - /
> DO please PO et leave your ANG uish OUT it's VER y HARD to SEE
>
> This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
> - / - / - / - - - - / - / - /
> this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
>
>        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
> - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
> but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
>
> The claim that these lines are "dipodic", two-footed, that the unit of
> measure for this meter is two feet not one, seems notional at best to me.
> Perhaps tripodic?
>
> Are they intended to be read this way
>
> i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter said to ME
>
> DO please poet leave your ANG uish out it's VER y hard to SEE
>
> this MAY be bleeding OB vious that the WORLD is hard as STONE
>
> but i DRAW the line at a COB ble when the COB ble bites my BONE.
>
> so that "dipodic" means something like "bad writing", in that it just
> doesn't matter how many syllables there are or where the accents would
> fall in ordinary writing or speech, you just find two words with some
> natural emphasis and over-emphasize them?
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From tad  Fri Aug  5 14:05:37 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
References: <42F323F8.20216.62670A@localhost>
Message-ID: <002001c599e8$4b9251f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I thought I was confused before...now I'm totally confused.

But I should add...I love the quatrain.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain


> Robin Hamilton wrote:
>> I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
>>       "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
>>This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
>>        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
>
> I've never been sure what people mean when they say "dipodic", and
> after all the explanations, I'm still not sure. Here's how I scanned these
> lines when I first read them:
>
>
> I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
> / - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
> I was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
>
>      "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
> / - / - / - / - / - / - / - /
> DO please PO et LEAVE your ANG uish OUT its VER y HARD to SEE
>
> This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
> - / - / - / - - - - - / - / - /
> this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
>
>       But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
> - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
> but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
>
> The second line especially seemed out of sorts, so I read it over a few
> times trying to find a way to read the line that fit with how I heard the
> rhythm in the other three lines until I came up with this
>
> I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
> - - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
> i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
>
>      "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
> / - / - - - / - / - / - / - /
> DO please PO et leave your ANG uish OUT it's VER y HARD to SEE
>
> This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
> - / - / - / - - - - / - / - /
> this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
>
>       But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
> - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
> but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
>
> The claim that these lines are "dipodic", two-footed, that the unit of
> measure for this meter is two feet not one, seems notional at best to me.
> Perhaps tripodic?
>
> Are they intended to be read this way
>
> i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter said to ME
>
> DO please poet leave your ANG uish out it's VER y hard to SEE
>
> this MAY be bleeding OB vious that the WORLD is hard as STONE
>
> but i DRAW the line at a COB ble when the COB ble bites my BONE.
>
> so that "dipodic" means something like "bad writing", in that it just
> doesn't matter how many syllables there are or where the accents would
> fall in ordinary writing or speech, you just find two words with some
> natural emphasis and over-emphasize them?
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From Rsgwynn1  Fri Aug  5 14:34:51 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:34:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
Message-ID: <13f.18c54ffd.30250b4b@cs.com>

Re. Ranson, I don't think he understood dipodic meters at all.  He says that 
Hardy's "Neutral Tones" is dipodic; it's just what Frost called "loose 
iambics."  Other critics have confused dipodics with accentual meter; true dipodics 
are strictly accentual-syllabic.  Robin, in your quatrain (which I no longer 
can raise) you had to elide "obvious" into two syllables, which is ok but 
something W. S. Gilbert probably wouldn't have done.  As far as I can tell, only 
lines with a base meter that's either trochaic or iambic can be "syncopated" into 
dipodics.
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From marcus  Fri Aug  5 15:09:43 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:09:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
In-Reply-To: <13f.18c54ffd.30250b4b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <42F38137.25736.B9F78B@localhost>

Way back when at the dawn of time. 
In the heart of death valley where the sun don't shine. 
The roughest toughest fighter ever known was made. 
>From an M-16 and a live grenade. 
He was a lean mean green fighting machine. 
He proudly bore the title of US Marine. 







From marcus  Fri Aug  5 15:09:43 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:09:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
In-Reply-To: <13f.18c54ffd.30250b4b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <42F38137.434.B9F6FE@localhost>

You had a good home when you left 
You're right 
You had a good home when you left 
You're right  
Jodie was there when you left 
You're right 
Jodie was there when you left 
You're right 
 SOUND OFF 
1 - 2 
SOUND OFF 
3 - 4  
CADENCE COUNT 
1 - 2 - 3 - 4, 1 - 2 --- 3 - 4 
You had a good home when you left 
You're right 
Jodie was there when you left 
You're right 
Her mamma was there when you left 
You're right 
Her papa was there when you left 
You're right 
 
You had a good home when you left 
You're right 
Your baby was there when you left 
You're right 
The police were there when you left 
You're right 
And that's why you left 
You're right 
 
The Captain rides in a jeep,
You're right 
The Sergeant rides in a truck,
You're right 
The General rides in a limousine
You're right 
But your just out a luck.
You're right 





From marcus  Fri Aug  5 15:53:19 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:53:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
In-Reply-To: <13f.18c54ffd.30250b4b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <42F38B6F.18501.E1E141@localhost>

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> Re. Ranson, I don't think he understood dipodic meters at all.  He says that 
> Hardy's "Neutral Tones" is dipodic; it's just what Frost called "loose 
> iambics."  Other critics have confused dipodics with accentual meter; true dipodics 
> are strictly accentual-syllabic.  Robin, in your quatrain (which I no longer 
> can raise) you had to elide "obvious" into two syllables, which is ok but 
> something W. S. Gilbert probably wouldn't have done.  As far as I can tell, only 
> lines with a base meter that's either trochaic or iambic can be "syncopated" into 
> dipodics.

            I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
                        "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's
                        very hard to see."
            This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
                        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble
                        bites my bone.

How do you scan that so that "obvious" has to be elided to two 
syllables? I thought that what charm dipodics have inheres in something 
like that second line, which is one of those Yeatsian-stressed lines with 
perhaps as many as 9 stresses in 15 syllables and perhaps as few as 4 
beats that you have to read so differently in the context of the meter 
than you'd read it if you came across it in prose that only people like 
Yeats could get away with.

Marcus




From anny.ballardini  Fri Aug  5 16:39:27 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:39:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <008f01c599fd$c643b9b0$deab3852@ANNY>

With my thanks to Ernest Slyman for the Poet's Award I feature on the poetshome of the Poets' Corner:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

 

here is a new update:

 

 

Amy King

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=172

 

 

Rachel Dacus

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=173

 

 

Eve Rifkah

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=174

 

 

Stacy Szymaszek

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=175

 

 

Linh Dinh

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=176

 

With two translations by the Author into Italian, the first of his own work:

Sette Poesie del Corpo

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1229

 

e 15 indovinelli tradizionali del Vietnam

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1231

 

 

Gabriel Gudding

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=177

 

 

Charles Martin

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=178

 

 

Yerra Sugarman

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=179

 

 

Ian Davidson

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=180

 

 

Ann Fisher-Wirth

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=181

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New Additions:

 

Under the Mother section:

 

Richard Dillon with THERE IT IS

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1186

 

Kenneth Wolman's FEEDING

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1193

 

HISTORIOGRAPHY

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1194

 

MY MOTHER'S FELINE TRANSFORMATION

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1195

 

 

Rayn Roberts' For Rose, my Mother     

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1208

 

 

Stacy Szymaszek's PRAYER TO MY MOTHER

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1224

 

 

 

Under the section: Father

 

Rayn Roberts' Each Morning Begins a Journey Until You Arrive At Who You Are

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1209

 

The Return

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1210

 

Seeing In The Darkhttp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1211

 

Love Is Not Silent

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1212

 

 

Gianmario Lucini's Mio padre lo vedevo fuori posto

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1219

 

 

 

Further single additions to the Poets' pages:

 

 

Larry Jaffe's Love & Beauty

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1187

 

And OF WHAT IS FRIENDSHIP MADE

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1188

 

 

Clark Douglas' Citadel

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1204

 

 

Alan Sondheim's vw

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1205

 

of the music, an older

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1230

 

the flush sex-mother-scape

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1275

 

2 short silent videos

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1276

 

My Sixty-Five Failures

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1288

 

Anthracite Casualties

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1290

 

 

Frederick Pollack's Lieutenant Frank Detweiler

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1206

 

 

Kenneth Wolman's FLED IS THAT MUSIC SO CHANGE THE RECORD

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1207

 

 

Anna Marie Guterl's Enchanted

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1253

 

 

Ben Mazer's newly reorganized pages

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=52

 

 

 

A new page under New Poetry Mailing List:

Why Poetry Exists

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1289

 

 

 

Under Poets on Poets:

 

 

Rayn Roberts by Paul Dolinsky reviewing his The Fires of Spring

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=41

 

 

A wonderful contribution by Linh Dinh with poems translated into English by Cesare Pavese:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=29

 

 

And finally my contribution to the poetry of Tom Beckett, you can find my translation of his Vanishing points of resemblance / Punti evanescenti di somiglianza into Italian, with a brief note of the Author here:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=30

 

 

I hope you will enjoy it all as much as I did with my best wishes for a wonderful summer holiday,

 

 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug  5 18:13:25 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:13:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
References: <42F38B6F.18501.E1E141@localhost>
Message-ID: <008801c59a0a$e7684d10$42169c51@Robin>

Right, I'm getting lost here *myself*.

I withdraw the 50/50 score -- it's obviously 25/75.

> How do you scan that so that "obvious" has to be elided to two
> syllables?

> I thought that what charm dipodics have inheres in something
> like that second line, which is one of those Yeatsian-stressed lines with
> perhaps as many as 9 stresses in 15 syllables and perhaps as few as 4
> beats that you have to read so differently in the context of the meter
> than you'd read it if you came across it in prose that only people like
> Yeats could get away with.

*Which* Yeats?

I do so *wish* people would specify +which+ poem they are talking about.

            <sigh>

I presume (though I may be wrong) that what Marcus is referring to is Yeats'
"Easter 1916" which runs through Auden's "September 1939" to Heaney's "Four
Men".

None of the three poems are dipodic (though there are overlaps) since
neither Stress Poetry nor Dipodic Metre relies (nor does anything other than
classic Spanish verse) rely on such a strict syllable-count, which Marcus
seems to be requiring.

I've lost it, both my temper and my tone, and I promised myself that when I
woke up, I'd focus on what JSG said about JCR and TH.

        :-(

The Eighth Spanish Angel.





From halvard  Sat Aug  6 10:32:22 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:32:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hiroshima
Message-ID: <8fd27d4b86d8ffa39e22d1a44dab4817@earthlink.net>

ZNet | Japan

Expressing the horror of Hiroshima in 17 syllables

by David McNeill; August 05, 2005

Shigemoto Yasuhiko is recalling the day he first saw the incinerated 
city of Hiroshima as a 15-year-old boy.

"I had escaped the blast and I came to check on my friends," he says. 
"I walked across this bridge and even five days after the bomb, it was 
covered with charred bodies. I had to step over them, but there were so 
many I walked on someone. The river underneath was full of people too, 
floating like dead fish. There are no words to describe what I felt."

He looks down at the rebuilt stone bridge over the Motoyasu River, just 
yards from the iconic Hiroshima Dome, where foreign tourists laugh and 
pose for photographs in the blistering summer heat.
And with that, this modest retired schoolteacher, now an old man of 75, 
turns silent, lost in his memories of the horrific aftermath of the 
nuclear blast on Aug.6th 1945; perhaps silently reciting one of his own 
poems:

Hiroshima Day ?
I believe there must be bones
Under the paved street

How are artists to record unspeakable tragedy? Primo Levi described the 
Holocaust in the detached prose of the dispassionate novelist; the 
Dadaists famously responded to the carnage of the First World War by 
retreating into surrealism; the horrors of the current conflict in Iraq 
may well be remembered in the future through the Internet blog.

When Shigemoto began to write, aged 55, about the Hiroshima blast, in 
which half the children in his school died, he chose the shortest of 
literary styles: the 17-syllable haiku. He had spent years wondering 
why among the voluminous writings on the A-Bomb attack, there was 
little written in this most traditional of Japanese art forms.

At that time, few Japanese haiku poets wrote about Hiroshima, "perhaps 
because they thought it was too short," he says. "But I believe the 
shortness can be very profound. If you write well, the connotations of 
haiku, and the ability to stimulate the imagination, is very strong -- 
not like a story at all."

The British poet James Kirkup, who has championed Shigemoto's work 
through two collections: My Haiku of Hiroshima I & II, says the brevity 
of the poems is "curiously touching". "Behind even the blackest images 
we can feel the poet's deep sincerity, his conviction that his vision 
of Hiroshima is a unique one, to be shared with all the world in his 
own plain words."

Shigemoto reaches for his poetry book to explain what he means. "My 
aunt lost all six of her children in the explosion, and all her life 
she wandered around clasping a photo album of her family. It was filthy 
and battered from being in her hands for so long, and she cried when 
she looked at it. I wrote this poem for her."

Child in a photo
Old mother murmurs his name
Hiroshima Day.

Shigemoto's sparing, nonjudgmental observations in the classic haiku 
verse of 5, 7, 5 syllables and usually including a 'seasonal' word, are 
like snapshots of moments in time, and contrast starkly with the work 
of the most famous Hiroshima poet, Toge Sankichi, whose graphic epics 
leave the reader angry, wrung out. In Toge's famous August 6th he 
wrote:

Heaps of schoolgirls lying in refuse, Pot-bellied, one-eyed with half 
their skin peeled off, bald.
The sun shone, and nothing moved

Shigemoto says he respects Toge's 'direct' style, but wanted to do 
something different. "I'm not against direct messages, or political 
poems, but I'm not a politician. There are enough politicians. I'm a 
poet and the power of poetry is to make people think. I want people to 
silently contemplate, not shout at each other."

"People tell me that there is no message in my poems. I think that's 
good. I just describe what I see. I do this to heal myself, and somehow 
others get something from it. I don't want to preach to anyone. I only 
want to express that I'm still alive."

Like many who witnessed the bomb, Shigemoto survived thanks to blind 
luck and has spent the rest of his life wondering why; he was shielded 
from the blast while working in the hills around the city as his school 
friends, who were all killed, worked on a different detail in the city 
center.

The victims arrived hours later, "like ghosts" with arms stretched out 
in front begging for water. "They walked like that because the dangling 
skin would have stuck to their bodies."
He says one of the ghosts called his name, but he didn't recognise his 
classmate because he was so badly burnt. "It is so strange and 
unexpected to be alive because I saw so many people die," he recalls. 
"It almost feels like a sin."

These experiences, which he calls "the most inhuman in the history of 
mankind," have been the motivation for most of his 160 poems, but in 
September 2001, Shigemoto was stirred by another mass-killing as he 
watched hijacked planes sail into the World Trade Center. The result 
was a set of haiku dedicated to the people of New York, including this 
one:

Chill wind
Blowing through the ruins of
New York skyscrapers

Unlike some victims of the A-bomb, he appears utterly without malice or 
anger toward the US, and his poems brim with as much joy in the simple 
pleasures of living, as they do in the memories of death. There are 
even unexpected shards of humor, such as his observation of people 
'licking popsicles' and being 'bitten by mosquitoes' as they gaze up at 
the Dome.

Still, he professes wonder at the American reaction to 9/11. "Americans 
were terrified by what happened, but not by Hiroshima. Which was the 
most terrible?"

At the end of a long interview, and a day with the Independent 
photographer posing in the heat next to the city's sites: the Dome, the 
Peace Park Memorial, and the famous Hiroshima tree, blasted bare by the 
force of the blast, but now a thriving symbol of new life, Shigemoto 
looks exhausted beneath his eager-to-please smile.

"Like most people my age, I don't want to remember," he says. "It makes 
me sad and tired, but our lives are getting shorter and we have to 
speak out. Most people today do not know or have forgotten what 
happened.

When I walk around this city today I see young children playing beneath 
the cherry blossoms. They have no idea.

And he reads another poem.

The children hunting
a cicada -- not seeing
the Atom Bomb Dome

Shigemoto Yasuhiko's website can be found at 
http://www.fureai-ch.ne.jp/~haiku/. His books My Haiku of Hiroshima I & 
II, are both published by Keisuisha.


This is a greatly expanded version of an article that appeared in The 
Independent on August 4, 2005. David McNeill is a Tokyo-based 
journalist and a coordinator of Japan Focus.

===
Hal

Today's Special

G(e)nome
http://www.xpressed.org/fall03/genome.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/





From marcus  Sat Aug  6 11:48:07 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:48:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
In-Reply-To: <008801c59a0a$e7684d10$42169c51@Robin>
Message-ID: <42F4A377.5679.2F202CB@localhost>

I'm not requiring it, I'm asking about it.
M


On 5 Aug 2005 at 23:13, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> Right, I'm getting lost here *myself*.
> 
> I withdraw the 50/50 score -- it's obviously 25/75.
> 
> > How do you scan that so that "obvious" has to be elided to two
> > syllables?
> 
> > I thought that what charm dipodics have inheres in something
> > like that second line, which is one of those Yeatsian-stressed lines with
> > perhaps as many as 9 stresses in 15 syllables and perhaps as few as 4
> > beats that you have to read so differently in the context of the meter
> > than you'd read it if you came across it in prose that only people like
> > Yeats could get away with.
> 
> *Which* Yeats?
> 
> I do so *wish* people would specify +which+ poem they are talking about.
> 
>             <sigh>
> 
> I presume (though I may be wrong) that what Marcus is referring to is Yeats'
> "Easter 1916" which runs through Auden's "September 1939" to Heaney's "Four
> Men".
> 
> None of the three poems are dipodic (though there are overlaps) since
> neither Stress Poetry nor Dipodic Metre relies (nor does anything other than
> classic Spanish verse) rely on such a strict syllable-count, which Marcus
> seems to be requiring.
> 
> I've lost it, both my temper and my tone, and I promised myself that when I
> woke up, I'd focus on what JSG said about JCR and TH.
> 
>         :-(
> 
> The Eighth Spanish Angel.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From arlyn  Sat Aug  6 13:29:37 2005
From: arlyn (Arlyn Edelstein)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:29:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
References: <200508061600.j76G05HB016507@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <005401c59aac$6bd91b50$eed35dc6@Arlyn>


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 12:00 PM
    Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 14, Issue 6


    Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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    Today's Topics:

       1. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (Robin Hamilton)
       2. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (The Old Mole)
       3. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
       4. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (Marcus Bales)
       5. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (Marcus Bales)
       6. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (Marcus Bales)
       7. the Poets' Corner (Anny Ballardini)
       8. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (Robin Hamilton)
       9. Hiroshima (Halvard Johnson)
      10. Re: Diipodic Quatrain (Marcus Bales)


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Message: 1
    Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:24:10 +0100
    From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>, <marcus at designerglass.com>
    Message-ID: <227601c599e2$7e84acd0$42169c51 at Robin>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

    I'll try to get back to this at more (tedious) length later, Marcus, but at
    first glance, what you're trying to do is scan a dipodic poem in terms of
    syllable-accent metre.

    As Randolph said, "Skipping rhymes live".

    It's not just a different metre (as, say, the difference between iambic and
    trochaic metres +within+ syllable-accent) but a different *metrical system*.

    In rough chronological order in English:

        Alliterative Metre
        Stress Metre
        Syllable-Accent
        Dipodic
        Qualitative Metre (Sidney on, and never successfully except by Clough in
    "Amours de Voyage")
        Syllabics
        Free Verse (that catch-all rat-bag of a term)

    It would be gratifying if it weren't so predictable the response I've gotten
    which is that regardless of the miniscule merits of my tiny piece of
    doggerel, Randolph Healey and R.S.Gwynn seemed to have no problem
    working-out where I was coming from, while you and Carol both exhibit total
    blank incomprehension.

            50/50, and the obvious answer is never to write in dipodic metre in
    2005.

    Why I think dipodic metre might currently be counter-intuitive.

    > I've never been sure what people mean when they say "dipodic", and
    > after all the explanations, I'm still not sure.

    Oh, lor' luv a duck, Marcus, it's dead simple -- dipodic metre works on a
    functional three-stress system [think Humpty Dumpty] while syllable-accent
    verse works on a two-stress system.

    {Well, it does tend to get complicated since "dipodic" means something
    different in classical (Greek/Roman) metrics to what it means in English.}

                ENOUGH!!!

    When I become <Real Soon Now> the Ruler of the Sidereal Universe, absolutely
    the +first+ rule I'm going to institute is that no one *ever* uses the term
    "iambic pentameter" without a time tag included.

    I can deal with (though not agree) that Aelfric's Homilies are verse not
    prose, but when it comes to trying to engage with rabid a-historic
    Platonists with seemingly no sense of place ...

            ... god give me patience.

                            <g>

    Robin

    *****

    Here's how I scanned these
    > lines when I first read them:
    >
    >
    > I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
    > / - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
    > I was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
    >
    >       "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
    > / - / - / - / - / - / - / - /
    > DO please PO et LEAVE your ANG uish OUT its VER y HARD to SEE
    >
    > This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
    > - / - / - / - - - - - / - / - /
    > this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
    >
    >        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
    > - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
    > but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
    >
    > The second line especially seemed out of sorts, so I read it over a few
    > times trying to find a way to read the line that fit with how I heard the
    > rhythm in the other three lines until I came up with this
    >
    > I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
    > - - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
    > i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
    >
    >       "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
    > / - / - - - / - / - / - / - /
    > DO please PO et leave your ANG uish OUT it's VER y HARD to SEE
    >
    > This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
    > - / - / - / - - - - / - / - /
    > this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
    >
    >        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
    > - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
    > but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
    >
    > The claim that these lines are "dipodic", two-footed, that the unit of
    > measure for this meter is two feet not one, seems notional at best to me.
    > Perhaps tripodic?
    >
    > Are they intended to be read this way
    >
    > i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter said to ME
    >
    > DO please poet leave your ANG uish out it's VER y hard to SEE
    >
    > this MAY be bleeding OB vious that the WORLD is hard as STONE
    >
    > but i DRAW the line at a COB ble when the COB ble bites my BONE.
    >
    > so that "dipodic" means something like "bad writing", in that it just
    > doesn't matter how many syllables there are or where the accents would
    > fall in ordinary writing or speech, you just find two words with some
    > natural emphasis and over-emphasize them?
    >
    > Marcus
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > New-Poetry mailing list
    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
    >




    ------------------------------

    Message: 2
    Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:37 -0400
    From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: <marcus at designerglass.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
    &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Message-ID: <002001c599e8$4b9251f0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ>
    Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

    I thought I was confused before...now I'm totally confused.

    But I should add...I love the quatrain.


    Tad Richards
    www.opus40.org
    http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:31 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain


    > Robin Hamilton wrote:
    >> I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
    >>       "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
    >>This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
    >>        But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
    >
    > I've never been sure what people mean when they say "dipodic", and
    > after all the explanations, I'm still not sure. Here's how I scanned these
    > lines when I first read them:
    >
    >
    > I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
    > / - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
    > I was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
    >
    >      "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
    > / - / - / - / - / - / - / - /
    > DO please PO et LEAVE your ANG uish OUT its VER y HARD to SEE
    >
    > This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
    > - / - / - / - - - - - / - / - /
    > this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
    >
    >       But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
    > - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
    > but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
    >
    > The second line especially seemed out of sorts, so I read it over a few
    > times trying to find a way to read the line that fit with how I heard the
    > rhythm in the other three lines until I came up with this
    >
    > I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
    > - - / - - - / - - - / - / - /
    > i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter SAID to ME
    >
    >      "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's very hard to see."
    > / - / - - - / - / - / - / - /
    > DO please PO et leave your ANG uish OUT it's VER y HARD to SEE
    >
    > This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
    > - / - / - / - - - - / - / - /
    > this MAY be BLEED ing OB vious that the WORLD is HARD as STONE
    >
    >       But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble bites my bone.
    > - - / - / - - / - - - / - / - /
    > but i DRAW the LINE at a COB ble when the COB ble BITES my BONE.
    >
    > The claim that these lines are "dipodic", two-footed, that the unit of
    > measure for this meter is two feet not one, seems notional at best to me.
    > Perhaps tripodic?
    >
    > Are they intended to be read this way
    >
    > i was BLIND side to the GUT ter when the GUT ter said to ME
    >
    > DO please poet leave your ANG uish out it's VER y hard to SEE
    >
    > this MAY be bleeding OB vious that the WORLD is hard as STONE
    >
    > but i DRAW the line at a COB ble when the COB ble bites my BONE.
    >
    > so that "dipodic" means something like "bad writing", in that it just
    > doesn't matter how many syllables there are or where the accents would
    > fall in ordinary writing or speech, you just find two words with some
    > natural emphasis and over-emphasize them?
    >
    > Marcus
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > New-Poetry mailing list
    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
    >
    > 




    ------------------------------

    Message: 3
    Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:34:51 EDT
    From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    Message-ID: <13f.18c54ffd.30250b4b at cs.com>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

    Re. Ranson, I don't think he understood dipodic meters at all.  He says that 
    Hardy's "Neutral Tones" is dipodic; it's just what Frost called "loose 
    iambics."  Other critics have confused dipodics with accentual meter; true dipodics 
    are strictly accentual-syllabic.  Robin, in your quatrain (which I no longer 
    can raise) you had to elide "obvious" into two syllables, which is ok but 
    something W. S. Gilbert probably wouldn't have done.  As far as I can tell, only 
    lines with a base meter that's either trochaic or iambic can be "syncopated" into 
    dipodics.
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    Message: 4
    Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:09:43 -0400
    From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Message-ID: <42F38137.25736.B9F78B at localhost>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

    Way back when at the dawn of time. 
    In the heart of death valley where the sun don't shine. 
    The roughest toughest fighter ever known was made. 
    >From an M-16 and a live grenade. 
    He was a lean mean green fighting machine. 
    He proudly bore the title of US Marine. 






    ------------------------------

    Message: 5
    Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:09:43 -0400
    From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Message-ID: <42F38137.434.B9F6FE at localhost>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

    You had a good home when you left 
    You're right 
    You had a good home when you left 
    You're right  
    Jodie was there when you left 
    You're right 
    Jodie was there when you left 
    You're right 
     SOUND OFF 
    1 - 2 
    SOUND OFF 
    3 - 4  
    CADENCE COUNT 
    1 - 2 - 3 - 4, 1 - 2 --- 3 - 4 
    You had a good home when you left 
    You're right 
    Jodie was there when you left 
    You're right 
    Her mamma was there when you left 
    You're right 
    Her papa was there when you left 
    You're right 
     
    You had a good home when you left 
    You're right 
    Your baby was there when you left 
    You're right 
    The police were there when you left 
    You're right 
    And that's why you left 
    You're right 
     
    The Captain rides in a jeep,
    You're right 
    The Sergeant rides in a truck,
    You're right 
    The General rides in a limousine
    You're right 
    But your just out a luck.
    You're right 




    ------------------------------

    Message: 6
    Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:53:19 -0400
    From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Message-ID: <42F38B6F.18501.E1E141 at localhost>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

    Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
    > Re. Ranson, I don't think he understood dipodic meters at all.  He says that 
    > Hardy's "Neutral Tones" is dipodic; it's just what Frost called "loose 
    > iambics."  Other critics have confused dipodics with accentual meter; true dipodics 
    > are strictly accentual-syllabic.  Robin, in your quatrain (which I no longer 
    > can raise) you had to elide "obvious" into two syllables, which is ok but 
    > something W. S. Gilbert probably wouldn't have done.  As far as I can tell, only 
    > lines with a base meter that's either trochaic or iambic can be "syncopated" into 
    > dipodics.

                I was blindside to the gutter when the gutter said to me:
                            "Do please, Poet, leave your anguish out -- it's
                            very hard to see."
                This may be bleeding obvious, that the world is hard as stone,
                            But I draw the line at a cobble when the cobble
                            bites my bone.

    How do you scan that so that "obvious" has to be elided to two 
    syllables? I thought that what charm dipodics have inheres in something 
    like that second line, which is one of those Yeatsian-stressed lines with 
    perhaps as many as 9 stresses in 15 syllables and perhaps as few as 4 
    beats that you have to read so differently in the context of the meter 
    than you'd read it if you came across it in prose that only people like 
    Yeats could get away with.

    Marcus



    ------------------------------

    Message: 7
    Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:39:27 +0200
    From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
    Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
    To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Message-ID: <008f01c599fd$c643b9b0$deab3852 at ANNY>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

    With my thanks to Ernest Slyman for the Poet's Award I feature on the poetshome of the Poets' Corner:

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

     

    here is a new update:

     

     

    Amy King

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=172

     

     

    Rachel Dacus

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=173

     

     

    Eve Rifkah

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=174

     

     

    Stacy Szymaszek

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=175

     

     

    Linh Dinh

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=176

     

    With two translations by the Author into Italian, the first of his own work:

    Sette Poesie del Corpo

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1229

     

    e 15 indovinelli tradizionali del Vietnam

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1231

     

     

    Gabriel Gudding

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=177

     

     

    Charles Martin

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=178

     

     

    Yerra Sugarman

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=179

     

     

    Ian Davidson

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=180

     

     

    Ann Fisher-Wirth

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=181

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    New Additions:

     

    Under the Mother section:

     

    Richard Dillon with THERE IT IS

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1186

     

    Kenneth Wolman's FEEDING

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1193

     

    HISTORIOGRAPHY

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1194

     

    MY MOTHER'S FELINE TRANSFORMATION

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1195

     

     

    Rayn Roberts' For Rose, my Mother     

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1208

     

     

    Stacy Szymaszek's PRAYER TO MY MOTHER

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1224

     

     

     

    Under the section: Father

     

    Rayn Roberts' Each Morning Begins a Journey Until You Arrive At Who You Are

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1209

     

    The Return

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1210

     

    Seeing In The Darkhttp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1211

     

    Love Is Not Silent

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1212

     

     

    Gianmario Lucini's Mio padre lo vedevo fuori posto

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1219

     

     

     

    Further single additions to the Poets' pages:

     

     

    Larry Jaffe's Love & Beauty

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1187

     

    And OF WHAT IS FRIENDSHIP MADE

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1188

     

     

    Clark Douglas' Citadel

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1204

     

     

    Alan Sondheim's vw

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1205

     

    of the music, an older

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1230

     

    the flush sex-mother-scape

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1275

     

    2 short silent videos

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1276

     

    My Sixty-Five Failures

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1288

     

    Anthracite Casualties

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1290

     

     

    Frederick Pollack's Lieutenant Frank Detweiler

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1206

     

     

    Kenneth Wolman's FLED IS THAT MUSIC SO CHANGE THE RECORD

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1207

     

     

    Anna Marie Guterl's Enchanted

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1253

     

     

    Ben Mazer's newly reorganized pages

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=52

     

     

     

    A new page under New Poetry Mailing List:

    Why Poetry Exists

    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1289

     

     

     

    Under Poets on Poets:

     

     

    Rayn Roberts by Paul Dolinsky reviewing his The Fires of Spring

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=41

     

     

    A wonderful contribution by Linh Dinh with poems translated into English by Cesare Pavese:

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=29

     

     

    And finally my contribution to the poetry of Tom Beckett, you can find my translation of his Vanishing points of resemblance / Punti evanescenti di somiglianza into Italian, with a brief note of the Author here:

    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=30

     

     

    I hope you will enjoy it all as much as I did with my best wishes for a wonderful summer holiday,

     

     

    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche 
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    ------------------------------

    Message: 8
    Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:13:25 +0100
    From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Cc: Joanna Boulter <joanna.boulter at ntlworld.com>
    Message-ID: <008801c59a0a$e7684d10$42169c51 at Robin>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

    Right, I'm getting lost here *myself*.

    I withdraw the 50/50 score -- it's obviously 25/75.

    > How do you scan that so that "obvious" has to be elided to two
    > syllables?

    > I thought that what charm dipodics have inheres in something
    > like that second line, which is one of those Yeatsian-stressed lines with
    > perhaps as many as 9 stresses in 15 syllables and perhaps as few as 4
    > beats that you have to read so differently in the context of the meter
    > than you'd read it if you came across it in prose that only people like
    > Yeats could get away with.

    *Which* Yeats?

    I do so *wish* people would specify +which+ poem they are talking about.

                <sigh>

    I presume (though I may be wrong) that what Marcus is referring to is Yeats'
    "Easter 1916" which runs through Auden's "September 1939" to Heaney's "Four
    Men".

    None of the three poems are dipodic (though there are overlaps) since
    neither Stress Poetry nor Dipodic Metre relies (nor does anything other than
    classic Spanish verse) rely on such a strict syllable-count, which Marcus
    seems to be requiring.

    I've lost it, both my temper and my tone, and I promised myself that when I
    woke up, I'd focus on what JSG said about JCR and TH.

            :-(

    The Eighth Spanish Angel.




    ------------------------------

    Message: 9
    Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 10:32:22 -0400
    From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Hiroshima
    To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu &amp; Views"
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Message-ID: <8fd27d4b86d8ffa39e22d1a44dab4817 at earthlink.net>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed

    ZNet | Japan

    Expressing the horror of Hiroshima in 17 syllables

    by David McNeill; August 05, 2005

    Shigemoto Yasuhiko is recalling the day he first saw the incinerated 
    city of Hiroshima as a 15-year-old boy.

    "I had escaped the blast and I came to check on my friends," he says. 
    "I walked across this bridge and even five days after the bomb, it was 
    covered with charred bodies. I had to step over them, but there were so 
    many I walked on someone. The river underneath was full of people too, 
    floating like dead fish. There are no words to describe what I felt."

    He looks down at the rebuilt stone bridge over the Motoyasu River, just 
    yards from the iconic Hiroshima Dome, where foreign tourists laugh and 
    pose for photographs in the blistering summer heat.
    And with that, this modest retired schoolteacher, now an old man of 75, 
    turns silent, lost in his memories of the horrific aftermath of the 
    nuclear blast on Aug.6th 1945; perhaps silently reciting one of his own 
    poems:

    Hiroshima Day -
    I believe there must be bones
    Under the paved street

    How are artists to record unspeakable tragedy? Primo Levi described the 
    Holocaust in the detached prose of the dispassionate novelist; the 
    Dadaists famously responded to the carnage of the First World War by 
    retreating into surrealism; the horrors of the current conflict in Iraq 
    may well be remembered in the future through the Internet blog.

    When Shigemoto began to write, aged 55, about the Hiroshima blast, in 
    which half the children in his school died, he chose the shortest of 
    literary styles: the 17-syllable haiku. He had spent years wondering 
    why among the voluminous writings on the A-Bomb attack, there was 
    little written in this most traditional of Japanese art forms.

    At that time, few Japanese haiku poets wrote about Hiroshima, "perhaps 
    because they thought it was too short," he says. "But I believe the 
    shortness can be very profound. If you write well, the connotations of 
    haiku, and the ability to stimulate the imagination, is very strong -- 
    not like a story at all."

    The British poet James Kirkup, who has championed Shigemoto's work 
    through two collections: My Haiku of Hiroshima I & II, says the brevity 
    of the poems is "curiously touching". "Behind even the blackest images 
    we can feel the poet's deep sincerity, his conviction that his vision 
    of Hiroshima is a unique one, to be shared with all the world in his 
    own plain words."

    Shigemoto reaches for his poetry book to explain what he means. "My 
    aunt lost all six of her children in the explosion, and all her life 
    she wandered around clasping a photo album of her family. It was filthy 
    and battered from being in her hands for so long, and she cried when 
    she looked at it. I wrote this poem for her."

    Child in a photo
    Old mother murmurs his name
    Hiroshima Day.

    Shigemoto's sparing, nonjudgmental observations in the classic haiku 
    verse of 5, 7, 5 syllables and usually including a 'seasonal' word, are 
    like snapshots of moments in time, and contrast starkly with the work 
    of the most famous Hiroshima poet, Toge Sankichi, whose graphic epics 
    leave the reader angry, wrung out. In Toge's famous August 6th he 
    wrote:

    Heaps of schoolgirls lying in refuse, Pot-bellied, one-eyed with half 
    their skin peeled off, bald.
    The sun shone, and nothing moved

    Shigemoto says he respects Toge's 'direct' style, but wanted to do 
    something different. "I'm not against direct messages, or political 
    poems, but I'm not a politician. There are enough politicians. I'm a 
    poet and the power of poetry is to make people think. I want people to 
    silently contemplate, not shout at each other."

    "People tell me that there is no message in my poems. I think that's 
    good. I just describe what I see. I do this to heal myself, and somehow 
    others get something from it. I don't want to preach to anyone. I only 
    want to express that I'm still alive."

    Like many who witnessed the bomb, Shigemoto survived thanks to blind 
    luck and has spent the rest of his life wondering why; he was shielded 
    from the blast while working in the hills around the city as his school 
    friends, who were all killed, worked on a different detail in the city 
    center.

    The victims arrived hours later, "like ghosts" with arms stretched out 
    in front begging for water. "They walked like that because the dangling 
    skin would have stuck to their bodies."
    He says one of the ghosts called his name, but he didn't recognise his 
    classmate because he was so badly burnt. "It is so strange and 
    unexpected to be alive because I saw so many people die," he recalls. 
    "It almost feels like a sin."

    These experiences, which he calls "the most inhuman in the history of 
    mankind," have been the motivation for most of his 160 poems, but in 
    September 2001, Shigemoto was stirred by another mass-killing as he 
    watched hijacked planes sail into the World Trade Center. The result 
    was a set of haiku dedicated to the people of New York, including this 
    one:

    Chill wind
    Blowing through the ruins of
    New York skyscrapers

    Unlike some victims of the A-bomb, he appears utterly without malice or 
    anger toward the US, and his poems brim with as much joy in the simple 
    pleasures of living, as they do in the memories of death. There are 
    even unexpected shards of humor, such as his observation of people 
    'licking popsicles' and being 'bitten by mosquitoes' as they gaze up at 
    the Dome.

    Still, he professes wonder at the American reaction to 9/11. "Americans 
    were terrified by what happened, but not by Hiroshima. Which was the 
    most terrible?"

    At the end of a long interview, and a day with the Independent 
    photographer posing in the heat next to the city's sites: the Dome, the 
    Peace Park Memorial, and the famous Hiroshima tree, blasted bare by the 
    force of the blast, but now a thriving symbol of new life, Shigemoto 
    looks exhausted beneath his eager-to-please smile.

    "Like most people my age, I don't want to remember," he says. "It makes 
    me sad and tired, but our lives are getting shorter and we have to 
    speak out. Most people today do not know or have forgotten what 
    happened.

    When I walk around this city today I see young children playing beneath 
    the cherry blossoms. They have no idea.

    And he reads another poem.

    The children hunting
    a cicada -- not seeing
    the Atom Bomb Dome

    Shigemoto Yasuhiko's website can be found at 
    http://www.fureai-ch.ne.jp/~haiku/. His books My Haiku of Hiroshima I & 
    II, are both published by Keisuisha.


    This is a greatly expanded version of an article that appeared in The 
    Independent on August 4, 2005. David McNeill is a Tokyo-based 
    journalist and a coordinator of Japan Focus.

    ===
    Hal

    Today's Special

    G(e)nome
    http://www.xpressed.org/fall03/genome.pdf

    Halvard Johnson
    halvard at earthlink.net
    halvard at gmail.com
    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
    blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




    ------------------------------

    Message: 10
    Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:48:07 -0400
    From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
    To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Message-ID: <42F4A377.5679.2F202CB at localhost>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

    I'm not requiring it, I'm asking about it.
    M


    On 5 Aug 2005 at 23:13, Robin Hamilton wrote:

    > Right, I'm getting lost here *myself*.
    > 
    > I withdraw the 50/50 score -- it's obviously 25/75.
    > 
    > > How do you scan that so that "obvious" has to be elided to two
    > > syllables?
    > 
    > > I thought that what charm dipodics have inheres in something
    > > like that second line, which is one of those Yeatsian-stressed lines with
    > > perhaps as many as 9 stresses in 15 syllables and perhaps as few as 4
    > > beats that you have to read so differently in the context of the meter
    > > than you'd read it if you came across it in prose that only people like
    > > Yeats could get away with.
    > 
    > *Which* Yeats?
    > 
    > I do so *wish* people would specify +which+ poem they are talking about.
    > 
    >             <sigh>
    > 
    > I presume (though I may be wrong) that what Marcus is referring to is Yeats'
    > "Easter 1916" which runs through Auden's "September 1939" to Heaney's "Four
    > Men".
    > 
    > None of the three poems are dipodic (though there are overlaps) since
    > neither Stress Poetry nor Dipodic Metre relies (nor does anything other than
    > classic Spanish verse) rely on such a strict syllable-count, which Marcus
    > seems to be requiring.
    > 
    > I've lost it, both my temper and my tone, and I promised myself that when I
    > woke up, I'd focus on what JSG said about JCR and TH.
    > 
    >         :-(
    > 
    > The Eighth Spanish Angel.
    > 
    > 
    > _______________________________________________
    > New-Poetry mailing list
    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
    > 




    ------------------------------

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


    End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 14, Issue 6
    *****************************************

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From halvard  Sat Aug  6 14:28:19 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:28:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
In-Reply-To: <005401c59aac$6bd91b50$eed35dc6@Arlyn>
References: <200508061600.j76G05HB016507@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<005401c59aac$6bd91b50$eed35dc6@Arlyn>
Message-ID: <d47e25c0676d5a283f8b0851c16acd4e@earthlink.net>


Maybe since Arlyn Edelstein was thoughtful enough to send each
and everyone of us the entire digest, we should all return the favor
and send it back to him.

Hal

On Aug 6, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Arlyn Edelstein wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:37 -0400
>>> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
>>> To: <marcus at designerglass.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>>> &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>> Message-ID: <002001c599e8$4b9251f0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=originalc




From anny.ballardini  Sat Aug  6 14:40:07 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 20:40:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
References: <200508061600.j76G05HB016507@wiz.cath.vt.edu><005401c59aac$6bd91b50$eed35dc6@Arlyn>
	<d47e25c0676d5a283f8b0851c16acd4e@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01d001c59ab6$456501a0$e8d73152@ANNY>


Ah Hal, not only, we should choose that vomit-like green as a neat background,
respectfully- and as in Leviticus 24:20 :

eye for eye /just it!

and as usual no mention of Arlyn Edelstein on google, the usual fake identities abound!
Care,
Anny


From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 8:28 PM


> 
> Maybe since Arlyn Edelstein was thoughtful enough to send each
> and everyone of us the entire digest, we should all return the favor
> and send it back to him.
> 
> Hal
> 
> On Aug 6, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Arlyn Edelstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:37 -0400
>>>> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
>>>> To: <marcus at designerglass.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>>>> &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>> Message-ID: <002001c599e8$4b9251f0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=originalc
> 
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From JforJames  Sat Aug  6 14:42:08 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:42:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The AA Independent Press Guide
Message-ID: <e6.6f4a7e2a.30265e80@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/5/2005 10:27:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
thunderburst at ntlworld.com writes:


Re: The AA Independent PRress Guide
> 
> 
>   
> I came across your email address on the Poets &Writers website.  I?m writing 
> to let you know about The AA Independent Press Guide, which is a free, 
> online resource for writers at http://www.thunderburst.co.uk . The guide has 
> detailed listings on over 2,000 literary &genre magazines and publishers from 
> around the world, plus links to over 750 internet magazines.  
> 
>  
> 
> If you find the guide useful - as I?m sure you will - I?d be grateful if 
> you could help to spread the word; especially to creative writing students and 
> writers at the beginning of their careers.
> 
>   
> 
> All the very best
> 
>   
> 
>  
> 
> Dee Rimbaud
> 
>   
> 
> ps: I hope you don?t mind me sending you this information.  My assumption 
> was that as you have published your email address in the public domain you don?
> t mind receiving information relevant to writers and poets.  If this is not 
> the case just hit reply and put remove in the subject line and you will never 
> hear from me again.
> 
>   
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
>  
> *****************************************************************************
> *************************************
> Dee Rimbaud/ AA Independent Press Guide - http://www.thunderburst.co.uk
> Dee Rimbaud's blog - http://deerimbaud.blogspot.com/
> Dee Rimbaud's latest artworks: http://acid-angel.blogspot.com/
>   
> Dee Rimbaud: 'Dropping Ecstasy With The Angels'   
> http://www.bluechrome.co.uk/store/shop/item.asp?itemid=30&catid=55
> Dee Rimbaud: 'Stealing Heaven From The Lips Of God'   
> http://www.bluechrome.co.uk/store/shop/item.asp?itemid=102&catid=56
> 

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From anny.ballardini  Sat Aug  6 15:02:52 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:02:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Walt Whitman
Message-ID: <021601c59ab9$725d6dc0$e8d73152@ANNY>

>From Today in LIterature:
http://www.todayinliterature.com/stories.asp?Event_Date=3/26/1892

On this day in 1892 Walt Whitman died at the age of seventy-two. The high and controversial emotions which surrounded Whitman in life attended his death: in the same issue that carried his obituary, the New York Times declared that he could not be called "a great poet unless we deny poetry to be an art," while one funeral speech declared that "He walked among men, among writers, among verbal varnishers and veneerers, among literary milliners and tailors, with the unconscious majesty of an antique god." ...  -SK


__________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames  Sat Aug  6 15:04:40 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:04:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Les Murray - The Bunyah poems
Message-ID: <7d.6ec200e6.302663c8@aol.com>

POETICA
06/08/2005 15:00
11/08/2005 21:00 (repeat)

Les Murray - The Bunyah poems
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1419065.htm

Les Murray enjoys a reputation as Australia's greatest living poet and 
is known not only as a literary icon but as an independent, outspoken 
and sometimes controversial figure


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From tad  Sat Aug  6 15:12:36 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:12:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
References: <200508061600.j76G05HB016507@wiz.cath.vt.edu><005401c59aac$6bd91b50$eed35dc6@Arlyn>
	<d47e25c0676d5a283f8b0851c16acd4e@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002901c59aba$d13a7170$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'm sending you this diatribe
To tell you that I unsubscribe.
Don't keep those cards and letters comin',
No Marcus Bales and no Bob Grumman,
And though to some it seems a sin,
I want no more of R.S.Gwynn,
No David Graham, no Paul Lake.
It's been a terrible mistake.
And would I seem too much a meanie
To want no Anny Ballardini?
That's how it is. I'll leave 'em sobbin',
No Donna, Halvard, Jeff or Robin.
So ciao, farewell, auf Weidersehen--
Sincerely, Arlyn Edelstein.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube


>
> Maybe since Arlyn Edelstein was thoughtful enough to send each
> and everyone of us the entire digest, we should all return the favor
> and send it back to him.
>
> Hal
>
> On Aug 6, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Arlyn Edelstein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:37 -0400
>>>> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
>>>> To: <marcus at designerglass.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>>>> &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>> Message-ID: <002001c599e8$4b9251f0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=originalc
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From cstroffo  Sat Aug  6 17:12:53 2005
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:12:53 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B
Message-ID: <200508061949.j76JnPJ5376694@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

kind of silly question, but
Does anybody on this list know (offhand) what year "America The Beautiful"
was written?
    I would assume (by the subject matter and language) sometime around
1880-1905,
    but I realize I have no idea....

C
 
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From bardo  Sat Aug  6 16:01:28 2005
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:01:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B
References: <200508061949.j76JnPJ5376694@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <005901c59ac1$a1de6740$3a95c044@MULDER>

A the B1913. Katherine Lee Bates.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views ; New Poetry 
  Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 5:12 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B


    kind of silly question, but
    Does anybody on this list know (offhand) what year "America The Beautiful" was written?
        I would assume (by the subject matter and language) sometime around 1880-1905,
        but I realize I have no idea....

    C
     


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bardo  Sat Aug  6 16:03:28 2005
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:03:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B
References: <200508061949.j76JnPJ5376694@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <007601c59ac1$e9bab460$3a95c044@MULDER>

A the Bhttp://www.fuzzylu.com/falmouth/bates/america.html

Actually, 1893, 1904, 1913. After Pike's Peak.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views ; New Poetry 
  Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 5:12 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B


    kind of silly question, but
    Does anybody on this list know (offhand) what year "America The Beautiful" was written?
        I would assume (by the subject matter and language) sometime around 1880-1905,
        but I realize I have no idea....

    C
     


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1  Sat Aug  6 17:11:54 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:11:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Walt Whitman
Message-ID: <14.4aaf1c36.3026819a@cs.com>

The Whitman exhibit currently at the Library of Congress is worth checking 
out.
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From clitophon  Sat Aug  6 17:21:09 2005
From: clitophon (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Glyptothek
In-Reply-To: <01d001c59ab6$456501a0$e8d73152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <20050806212109.9020.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com>

if you happen to be passing through M?nchen, you can
see some of my paintings at the Glyptothek.
best wishes,
Paul Murphy


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From cstroffo  Sat Aug  6 20:48:48 2005
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:48:48 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B
Message-ID: <200508062325.j76NPJtx105886@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

thanks! 
interesting that it was wrote three different years (and decades)

c
----------
From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A the B
Date: Sat, Aug 6, 2005, 12:03 PM


http://www.fuzzylu.com/falmouth/bates/america.html

Actually, 1893, 1904, 1913. After Pike's Peak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Stroffolino <mailto:cstroffo at earthlink.net>
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
<mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>  ; New Poetry
<mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 5:12 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B

kind of silly question, but
Does anybody on this list know (offhand) what year "America The Beautiful"
was written?
    I would assume (by the subject matter and language) sometime around
1880-1905,
    but I realize I have no idea....

C

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From bardo  Sat Aug  6 20:51:39 2005
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:51:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B
References: <200508062325.j76NPJtx105886@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <012b01c59aea$2bda78d0$3a95c044@MULDER>

Re: [New-Poetry] A the BI wonder whether the later verses arose from her retrospective viewing
from atop the Pike's Peak of her memory. I can only imagine a mountain
getting higher in memory; an enormous field I roved in as a child shrank
when I explored it 40 years later--not from some developers' predation, 
just from the atrophy of my richer, previous traversal. Had Bates reseen
that panorama 20 years on, might it have redacted her nostalgia? Do any
now, surmounting it by SUV, warble her anthem at the summit? Why can
my Pike's Peak pitch pipe not quite tune my throat? ('cause her final line 
chimed for me "a whiter shade of pale")? Still, a better anthem than Star
Gespangelt Uber Alles . . .

~ Dan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chris Stroffolino 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 8:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A the B


  thanks! 
  interesting that it was wrote three different years (and decades)

  c
  ----------
  From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
  To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A the B
  Date: Sat, Aug 6, 2005, 12:03 PM



    http://www.fuzzylu.com/falmouth/bates/america.html
     
    Actually, 1893, 1904, 1913. After Pike's Peak.

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Chris Stroffolino <mailto:cstroffo at earthlink.net>  
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>  ; New Poetry <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>  
      Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 5:12 PM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] A the B


        kind of silly question, but
        Does anybody on this list know (offhand) what year "America The Beautiful" was written?
            I would assume (by the subject matter and language) sometime around 1880-1905,
            but I realize I have no idea....

        C
         

------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





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  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From JforJames  Sat Aug  6 21:55:10 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:55:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Walt Whitman
Message-ID: <f6.5617dab7.3026c3fe@aol.com>

Whitman's lost notebooks...

http://www.loc.gov/wiseguide/oct02/whitman.html

 World War II brought hard times for the Library. Assuming an attack was 
imminent, antiaircraft guns were installed on rooftops and staff conducted 24-hour 
air raid watches from Library buildings. After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, 
staff packed up Library treasures and shipped them to safe locations.

Included in these treasures were 24 of poet Walt Whitman's personal 
notebooks. 
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From uche  Sun Aug  7 09:18:03 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:18:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
References: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1123420684.31001.119.camel@malatesta>

On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 15:50 -0400, Michael Snider wrote:

> I answered because it IS discovered: the universe does not depend on  
> us for its reality.
> 
> You replied "Well, but this doesn't hold at the quantum level, right?"
> 
> I tried to show that it does indeed hold at the quantum level, that  
> "observer effects," insofar as they exist, do not depend on conscious  
> observers.

For the record, thanks for this.  You stepped in to squash this common
misconception where I would have had to stick out my own neck (and
reminded me of one of The Straight Dope gems in the process).  The
conversation did dip a bit down the rabbit hole, but then again, such
conversations inevitably do.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Sun Aug  7 09:31:24 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:31:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Attempt To Clear Things Up -- was Why People Exist
In-Reply-To: <00d101c59610$5dc1eb00$ecab3452@ANNY>
References: <5412C681-E86B-4EC1-939D-8F2D9DFB3306@mac.com>
	<00d101c59610$5dc1eb00$ecab3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1123421485.31001.132.camel@malatesta>

On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 22:42 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
 
> If I am not wrong we both (Uche and I) agreed on denouncing business
> lobbies that kill independent research, and on the consequent
> information given by manipulated media. 
>  
> And I would add:
> On the stereotype forged by the industry by which you have to accept
> only one given truth (on the leitmotiv of an aspirin against headache)
> and against the entire system that kills a profession like the one of
> a doctor to make of it the one of an overpaid clerk deprived of any
> human feeling.

You are quite correct.  Proper science by its very basic rules does not
allow you to ever rule out all other possibilities but the most likely
one offered by the theory.  Even when theory eventually becomes law this
does not mean that no other possibility is accepted, but rather that it
takes extraordinary evidence to have an alternative to a law accepted as
a different law.

On the other hand, science as appropriated by business interests is all
about false certainties, and businesses even have the nerve to use
science's nature to pervert it.  So just because scientists must admit
that it is possible that the Earth is not getting armer, and that if it
is, that there is no human component to that warming, the petroleum
industry uses that to claim that we can't change any policy when there
is scientific "doubt" (never mind that the doubt is a matter of
infinitesimal probabilities).  Similar tactics are used in the Bible
Belt attack on Darwin's several theories.

As you say, this carries over into medicine when suits in HMOs push
absolutists policies that tell doctors "if these tests come out like
this, prescribe that" without allowing for the uncertainties of any
diagnosis, and thus using the scientific part of medicine to block the
doctor to practice the artistic/empathetic part of his profession.  The
doctor becomes a glorified clerk, and (oh the huge irony) overall health
care costs actually rise in the end because of the decreased
effectiveness of the doctor/patient relationship.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com






From uche  Sun Aug  7 09:36:48 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 07:36:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Lists Exist
In-Reply-To: <007b01c598fa$25b63030$16a93852@ANNY>
References: <s2e74767.033@mail.highland.edu> <42E880F2.2677.361E10@localhost>
	<3994253.1122564504913.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<20050728104334.sjkjaogbccc880gs@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
	<11429537.1122572517610.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<004101c593a2$21253a00$40eb3652@ANNY><1122725924.31001.38.camel@malatesta>
	<007701c59504$e0ea33a0$e6ae3252@ANNY><1122742581.31001.52.camel@malatesta>
	<013b01c5952a$fbff3a20$e6ae3252@ANNY>
	<1123161888.31001.81.camel@malatesta>
	<007b01c598fa$25b63030$16a93852@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1123421808.31001.136.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-08-04 at 15:40 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> Hey Uche,
> 
> congratulations to you and Lori, what a joy. And to Udoka Julian Melayo 
> Ogbuji a most welcome onboard,
> 
> with such a name he'll have a great life, indeed-

Thank you.

-- 
Uche





From clitophon  Sun Aug  7 13:14:22 2005
From: clitophon (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 10:14:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Was haben wir getan?
In-Reply-To: <8fd27d4b86d8ffa39e22d1a44dab4817@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20050807171422.29719.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com>

the newspapers are full of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki
anniversary, the headlines in Der Spiegel boast ?Was
haben wir Getan?  (well we?ve pre-empted the end of
WW2 by testing  our weapons, what else, what a strange
question that only a German newspaper could
ask...)strangely I only find out now that getan means
done which shows that I?m still discovering lots of
little, fundamental and obvious bits of German.

gestern I was in Schwabing, now a pale shadow of its
former self.  no one bothered to tell me that this is
where the street artists hang out.  the stuff they
sell is the most obvious kitsch and junk even beneath
the standards of purveyors of junk.  Sad to say that
in this area lived Gabriele M?nter, Kandinsky, Klee
and the rest.  I can?t even say that today it is
particularly successful as a touristic centre either. 
Cinemas packed with the usual Hollywood fodder, fast
food ristorants and many of the usual bars and cafes
that engulf such places.

my sketching is going well and I am bringing home 3 or
so fine sketches each day.  Alexander has gone to
Salzburg today for a short holiday, I was supposed to
meet WW but he wasn?t at home so I went to the
Glypothek and also sketched the wonderful statue by
Max Ernst beside the LenbachHaus.  Last night I went
to Nordbad, infested by secretaries from BMW, well
better than saying that they are presently taking the
arbeitslosgeld, isn?t it?   On Mittwoch I met Benjamin
there, a banker who lives in the Schwabing area and
works for Dresdner Bank (the 3rd biggest bank after
Deutsches and HypoVerein).  It was raining so
predictably he had gone to the sauna, found him in the
warm bath staring at a starless ceiling.   He had some
usual practical advice for me, because bankers are
nothing but practical but then they do not cross the
Rubicon, the Alps (over a predictable pile of Big Mac
Meals and dying Gauls, there?s nothing like a dying
Gaul before breakfast...)



		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From JforJames  Sun Aug  7 14:22:08 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 14:22:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The River Is Wide deftly translates Mexican poets
Message-ID: <d4.2da24e2c.3027ab50@aol.com>

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/entertainment/12305280.htm

The Kansas City Star
Posted on Sun, Aug. 07, 2005 
 Safe crossing

The River Is Wide deftly translates Mexican poets' works into English

By JOHN MARK EBERHART

In the literary world, there probably is no braver act than translating a 
poem from one language to another.

Translation is tough enough when dealing with novels or nonfiction or short 
stories; the task of the translator is to preserve the tone, feel and cultural 
context of the original prose while also producing a clear and aesthetically 
pleasing translation. Add the complications of line breaks, rhythm and other 
elements that make poetry poetry, and the job gets 
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From editor  Sun Aug  7 14:22:43 2005
From: editor (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 14:22:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poetics,   Logoclasody,   St. Thomasino
Message-ID: <200508071822.j77IMhpZ020707@mail9.atl.registeredsite.com>

.

Anyone interested, this is an essay, of sorts, on poetics.   It's up at The 
Argotist Online, edited by Jeffrey Side.   It's called "Logoclasody."  


http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Thomasino%20essay.htm  



Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  

.  







From JforJames  Sun Aug  7 15:12:15 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 15:12:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ygdrasil - August 2005 issue
Message-ID: <1c1.2de2cfc0.3027b70f@aol.com>

Subj:   Ygdrasil - August 2005 issue?   
Date:   8/6/2005 11:15:35 AM Eastern Standard Time  
From:   kgerken at synapse.net 
To: kgerken at synapse.net 
Sent from the Internet (Details)    
    


The August issue of Ygdrasil, A Journal of the Poetic Arts, featuring Seven 
Poems from 
Life In The Folds by Clayton Eshleman, is now available at 
http://www.synapse.net/kgerken
?
INTRODUCTION

?? John Olson

????? Review of My Devotion, poems by Clayton Eshleman. 
????? 2004, Black Sparrow Books, Boston. 123 pages. $16.95. 

CONTENTS

?? Clayton Eshleman
????? AN ARSENAL IN SEATTLE
????? CHAUVET, LEFT WALL OF END CHAMBER
????? LIFE IN THE FOLDS
????? MICHAUX, 1956
????? MONUMENTAL? 
????? NOCTURNAL VEILS
????? THE MAGICAL SADNESS OF OMAR CACERES

????? Notes

POST SCRIPTUM

?? A Note by the Editor
?? Bibliography 

?
Klaus J. Gerken
Editor/Publisher
Ygdrasil, A Journal of the Poetic Arts
http://www.synapse.net/~kgerken
kgeken at synapse.net

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From anny.ballardini  Sun Aug  7 15:37:57 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 21:37:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] WINEPOETICS' SUMMER PLEASURE POETRY CONTEST
Message-ID: <004d01c59b87$8492ca70$50aa3252@ANNY>

If you visit Eileen Tabios' The Chatelaine's Poetics there is an interesting contest with plenty of goodies if you are the Luckiest one to Win_

The poem or two poems to send has/have to be on "pleasure" ...
http://chatelaine-poet.blogspot.com/


____________________________________ 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From JforJames  Sun Aug  7 21:45:34 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 21:45:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
Message-ID: <c4.2cff9140.3028133e@aol.com>

Food, drink, conversation, sex, anything that can be realized and completely 
enjoyed in the act:  none of this is for poetry. Poetry is for whatever cannot 
be _had_; this is its particular charm.
--Juan Ram?n Hernandez
The Complete Perfectionist, translated by Christopher Maurer
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From JforJames  Sun Aug  7 22:16:07 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 22:16:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
Message-ID: <1e9.418eacde.30281a67@aol.com>

Big goof...Jimenez not Hernandez...here corrected:

Food, drink, conversation, sex, anything that can be realized and completely 
enjoyed in the act:  none of this is for poetry. Poetry is for whatever cannot 
be had; this is its particular charm.
--Juan Ram?n Jim?nez
The Complete Perfectionist, translated by Christopher Maurer


In a message dated 8/7/2005 9:46:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:

> Food, drink, conversation, sex, anything that can be realized and 
> completely enjoyed in the act:  none of this is for poetry. Poetry is for whatever 
> cannot be _had_; this is its particular charm.
> --Juan Ram?n Hernandez
> The Complete Perfectionist, translated by Christopher Maurer

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From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 08:03:50 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:03:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Kent's Three Questions (Anny Ballardini)
References: <200507271242.j6RCgFRe002231@wiz.cath.vt.edu><a05100300bf0d6c305787@[204.215.201.73]><007601c592e4$33d93980$9fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1122726611.31001.47.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <001c01c59c11$3dd42ea0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Now I'm catching up after ten days off.

> On Wed, 2005-07-27 at 15:48 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> Sorry, Richard, but I'm with Robin on dictionaries.  They have many
>> good uses, but the provision of definitions of the highest value is
>> not one of them.  I find the definitions the American Heritage gives
>> for "poetry" close to worthless, however I may agree with parts of a
>> few, but I'm biased against usage dictionaries, preferring
>> dictionaries, if such exist, that define words intelligently.
>
> Ah.  The good old rex solipsi definition of "intelligently"--"adv. such
> that I happen to agree".

Oh?  And on what basis do you suppose I'm asking for definitions that I 
agree with as opposed to definitions I consider intelligent?


>  And I suppose you would then impose your
> definitions on the masses on pain of a caning on their exposed buttocks,
> while wearing a conical hat.

I would ignore the masses so long as dictionaries did not try to impose 
their mostly ignorant definitions of specializaed terms on me.

--Bob G.





From JforJames  Mon Aug  8 08:47:24 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 08:47:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
Message-ID: <19d.3960f769.3028ae5c@aol.com>

Poetry is one of the destinies of speech...One would say that
the poetic image, in its newness, opens a future to language.
--Gaston Bachelard
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From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug  8 10:18:41 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:18:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
References: <1e9.418eacde.30281a67@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c59c24$13edbb70$74df3652@ANNY>

Thank you James, I already added both:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1289

to confuse Jim?nez with Hernandez means that you manage the language quite well,

Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 4:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists


  Big goof...Jimenez not Hernandez...here corrected:

  Food, drink, conversation, sex, anything that can be realized and completely enjoyed in the act:  none of this is for poetry. Poetry is for whatever cannot be had; this is its particular charm.
  --Juan Ram?n Jim?nez
  The Complete Perfectionist, translated by Christopher Maurer


  In a message dated 8/7/2005 9:46:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes:


    Food, drink, conversation, sex, anything that can be realized and completely enjoyed in the act:  none of this is for poetry. Poetry is for whatever cannot be _had_; this is its particular charm.
    --Juan Ram?n Hernandez
    The Complete Perfectionist, translated by Christopher Maurer





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug  8 11:35:31 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:35:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] minimalist concrete poetry
Message-ID: <009c01c59c2e$d08f2d40$74df3652@ANNY>

Dan Waber:
http://www.logolalia.com/minimalistconcretepoetry/


I love that final _cheer_ - scroll all the way down
_________________________________

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From Kent.Johnson  Mon Aug  8 11:40:48 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:40:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric Poetry [review and response]
Message-ID: <s2f736cb.087@mail.highland.edu>

There is a response from me to a rather unfriendly review of Lyric
Poetry after Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War. 

The response is here:

http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/

There is a link to the original review at the top.

The writer of the review seems to have suffered some kind of emotional
breakdown on his blog as a result of my book. If you want a taste of the
depths to which ad hominem attack can reach in the poetry world, you
might want to take a look here:

http://thejimside.blog-city.com/

Kent



From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 11:36:35 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:36:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains


> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 04:20 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
>> For the past few years I've been writing metrical lines that rhyme
>> irregularly.  Don't know why, exactly, but I'm so busy pursuing the sense 
>> of
>> what I'm saying that I let myself rhyme where it feels right instead of
>> where a pattern demands.  Don't know what the ultimate judgment of such a
>> practice will be, but it's been fun using rhyme without the obligation to
>> always make it fit an exact pattern.
>
> I think it's very useful to treat rhyme as a form of additional
> emphasis, rather than the sine qua non of a particular form.  For my
> part, I've been doing more of an equivalence between para-rhyme (i.e.
> Owen's "Strange Meeting") and "pure" rhyme as a way to expand the
> repertoire of English word rhymes.  But this still doesn't offer the
> abundance (and thus natural feel) of rhyme in, say French or Italian, so
> I've also been tending in the direction you mention.

You might try what I call backward rhymes, too (which I  apparently invented 
some forty years ago): e.g., back/bad/bat, cork/court.  Interestingly, 
stasguards can't accept these as rhymes--tradition, for them, comes before 
logic.  They are full rhymes--as are those of Owen which I call rim rhymes, 
e.g., rim/rhyme, bad/bud/bid.

--Bob G.



> Not that it's really apropos, but I'll also mention that I like the
> tendency to partial refrains that I've seen in verse by folks in this
> group, in both formal or free verse.  I think it's one of the richest
> and yet most neglected devices in any language.  I think it would be
> interesting to see more of refrain as inert chorus rather than just
> clever incorporation of refrain into the meaning of the poem.  Yes this
> would be a matter of reverting to ancient practice, but I'm curious as
> to whether it would work for the modern ear.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji
> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From paul.lake  Mon Aug  8 04:49:24 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 03:49:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
In-Reply-To: <002901c59aba$d13a7170$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BF1C86C4.9B9A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/6/05 2:12 PM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

> I'm sending you this diatribe
> To tell you that I unsubscribe.
> Don't keep those cards and letters comin',
> No Marcus Bales and no Bob Grumman,
> And though to some it seems a sin,
> I want no more of R.S.Gwynn,
> No David Graham, no Paul Lake.
> It's been a terrible mistake.
> And would I seem too much a meanie
> To want no Anny Ballardini?
> That's how it is. I'll leave 'em sobbin',
> No Donna, Halvard, Jeff or Robin.
> So ciao, farewell, auf Weidersehen--
> Sincerely, Arlyn Edelstein.
> 
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 2:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
> 
> 
>> 
>> Maybe since Arlyn Edelstein was thoughtful enough to send each
>> and everyone of us the entire digest, we should all return the favor
>> and send it back to him.
>> 
>> Hal
>> 
>> On Aug 6, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Arlyn Edelstein wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:05:37 -0400
>>>>> From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Diipodic Quatrain
>>>>> To: <marcus at designerglass.com>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News
>>>>> &amp; Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>>> Message-ID: <002001c599e8$4b9251f0$6501a8c0 at MoleHQ>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>> reply-type=originalc
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Great epigram, Tad. I love being rhymed with "mistake"!

Paul




From tad  Mon Aug  8 12:15:55 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:15:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta>
	<005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006301c59c34$775c0940$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Bob...and the reason why you don't call these "alliteration" and 
"assonance"?


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains


> Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
>
>
>> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 04:20 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
>>> For the past few years I've been writing metrical lines that rhyme
>>> irregularly.  Don't know why, exactly, but I'm so busy pursuing the 
>>> sense of
>>> what I'm saying that I let myself rhyme where it feels right instead of
>>> where a pattern demands.  Don't know what the ultimate judgment of such 
>>> a
>>> practice will be, but it's been fun using rhyme without the obligation 
>>> to
>>> always make it fit an exact pattern.
>>
>> I think it's very useful to treat rhyme as a form of additional
>> emphasis, rather than the sine qua non of a particular form.  For my
>> part, I've been doing more of an equivalence between para-rhyme (i.e.
>> Owen's "Strange Meeting") and "pure" rhyme as a way to expand the
>> repertoire of English word rhymes.  But this still doesn't offer the
>> abundance (and thus natural feel) of rhyme in, say French or Italian, so
>> I've also been tending in the direction you mention.
>
> You might try what I call backward rhymes, too (which I  apparently 
> invented some forty years ago): e.g., back/bad/bat, cork/court. 
> Interestingly, stasguards can't accept these as rhymes--tradition, for 
> them, comes before logic.  They are full rhymes--as are those of Owen 
> which I call rim rhymes, e.g., rim/rhyme, bad/bud/bid.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
>> Not that it's really apropos, but I'll also mention that I like the
>> tendency to partial refrains that I've seen in verse by folks in this
>> group, in both formal or free verse.  I think it's one of the richest
>> and yet most neglected devices in any language.  I think it would be
>> interesting to see more of refrain as inert chorus rather than just
>> clever incorporation of refrain into the meaning of the poem.  Yes this
>> would be a matter of reverting to ancient practice, but I'm curious as
>> to whether it would work for the modern ear.
>>
>> -- 
>> Uche Ogbuji
>> uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
>> Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 12:42:23 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:42:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006301c59c34$775c0940$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <007401c59c38$2788de30$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Bob...and the reason why you don't call these "alliteration" and 
> "assonance"?

See what I mean?  I don't call them that for the same reason that stasguards 
don't call standard rhyme "consonance" and "assonance."

--Bob G. 





From JforJames  Mon Aug  8 12:45:19 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:45:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
Message-ID: <27.77c19cd0.3028e61f@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/8/2005 10:19:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
Thank you James, I already added both:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1289

Thanks, Anny, and if no one else minds I will continue
to add to this thread/list from time to time. I find the question 
an intriguing one, even if unanswerable.
Finnegan
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From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 13:03:52 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:03:52 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta>
	<005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin>

Tad said:

<<
Bob...and the reason why you don't call these "alliteration" and
"assonance"?
>>

That occurred to me too, Tad, but according to the NPEPP (article on
"Rhyme", towards the beginning of Subsection 2: II TAXONOMY), it's a little
more complicated than that.

> You might try what I call backward rhymes, too (which I  apparently
invented
> some forty years ago): e.g., back/bad/bat, cork/court.

There are [according to the NPEPP] seven possible consonant-vowel-consonant
combinations, of which alliteration and assonance are two.  [The others,
leaving Bob's example aside, are:  consonance ; frame rhyme / pararhyme ;
rhyme strictly speaking ; and rich rhyme.}

Bob's back/bad/bat [which is, coincidentally, the example used in the NPEPP]
is termed by them reverse rhyme.

[This would also apply to Bob's cork/court -- IF you accept that the vowels
in "cork" and "court" are identical (which they aren't for me).  The pattern
is C V c {caps = like-sounds, lower case =  different}.

There's a problem here as various varieties of English distinguish more or
less vowels in speech.  The touchstone for this is the euphonious sentence,
"Merry Mary married hairy Harry".   I pronounce this (as I'm Scottish) with
three distinct vowel sounds, but I believe it can vary from four to one,
depending on the version of English you speak.]

> Interestingly,
> stasguards can't accept these as rhymes--tradition, for them, comes before
> logic.

Well, while distinguishing between the seven varieties, the NPEPP (the
stasguard bible?) sees them all as forms of rhyme [sic].

> They are full rhymes--as are those of Owen which I call rim rhymes,
> e.g., rim/rhyme, bad/bud/bid.

Um, no they ain't, Bob ...  They're all rhymes, certainly, but they're *not*
all "full" rhymes (the c V C combination) -- not identical in mechanism or
effect -- otherwise why did Owen go to the trouble of using pararhyme rather
than "rhyme strictly speaking" in the first place?

            Robin

[It's just occurred to me that the "null" case that the NPEPP excludes -- 
the c v c combination -- could possibly sneak in if you allowed, say, dental
consonants -- [d] and [t] for instance -- to count as parallels.  They are,
after all, more similar to each other than either is to [r], say.  [p] / [b]
might be another possibility.

Just a thot -- anyone tried this?

R.]





From chris.lott  Mon Aug  8 13:33:38 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric Poetry [review and response]
In-Reply-To: <s2f736cb.087@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2f736cb.087@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05080810331ce01f7e@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/8/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:
> There is a response from me to a rather unfriendly review of Lyric
> Poetry after Auschwitz: Eleven Submissions to the War.

It's too bad the poems *aren't* irrelevant and that the war in Iraq
*isn't* old news, isn't it?

c




From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 13:45:24 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:45:24 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Stasguard Bible
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <00d301c59c40$f52af3c0$d3309b51@Robin>

It's just occurred to me to check who wrote the NPEPP article on "Rhyme",
and it's signed T.V.F.B.

I suppose I should have known (I don't know how much it's revised from the
previous [N]PEPP, I'd guess it's pretty-much rewritten) but as it's Tim
Brogan's work, it carries (for me at least) quite a bit of clout.

He has *authority* (and I don't mean in the 'appeal to' sense, but that he
knows whereof he speaks).

So I shouldn't have referred to the NPEPP in my previous post, but to
T.V.F.B.'s article therein.

If it matters ...

Robin










From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 14:30:09 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:30:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <009501c59c47$35b850d0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

about pararhymes or, better, "rim-rhymes":

> They're all rhymes, certainly, but they're *not*
> all "full" rhymes (the c V C combination) -- not identical in mechanism or
> effect -- otherwise why did Owen go to the trouble of using pararhyme 
> rather
> than "rhyme strictly speaking" in the first place?

            Robin

Full in the sense that the rhymnants, as I call the words that rhyme, are 
identical except for one irreducible sound, and thus, by my logic, "full," 
unlike so-called "half-rhymes."  Owen used rim rhyme instead of regular 
rhyme to increase his range of rhymes--and because of the novelty, no doubt. 
But I didn't know "full" was a technical term in use.  So call rim rhyme 
"full-scale rhyme."  All homologous sounds of two or more syllables 
identical (or close enough to it) except one.

I was surprised to find "reverse rhyme," which is the what I've also called 
it, with its own entry in the Princeton.  It has not entry in the previous 
edition.  My influence?  No chance, I'm sure--although I discuss reverse 
rhyme (as "aft-segment" rhyme) in the first, 1990, edition of my Of 
Manywhere-at-Once.  The Princeton first mentions it in 1993.  Anyone know of 
a poem that uses it?  Or a poet that uses it as a rhyme rather than as 
alliteration that happens by accident to make a reverse rhyme.

The Princeton, by the way, says "many might deny that (reverse rhyme) is 
rhyme at all, since it thwarts the 'begin differently, end the same' 
structure that is rhyme."  So, perhaps the Princeton is a Bible for 
stasguards but occasionally inexplicably mentions new stuff.

I would be a stasguard about tack/cat, which some would call a different 
kind of reverse rhyme than the kind so far discussed.  "Cat" is "tack" 
reversed.  No rhyme, for me, because only one sound is repeated in 
place--the repetitions cannot occur connectedly.  No reason not to use it as 
a kind of partial rhyme, though.

--Bob 





From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug  8 14:32:28 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:32:28 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Poetry Exists
References: <27.77c19cd0.3028e61f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c59c47$882def50$abdf3652@ANNY>

Please do, I find this thread and the other on What is Poetry extremely interesting with their multiple intelligent answers.
   
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:45 PM


  In a message dated 8/8/2005 10:19:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
    Thank you James, I already added both:
    http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1289

  Thanks, Anny, and if no one else minds I will continue
  to add to this thread/list from time to time. I find the question 
  an intriguing one, even if unanswerable.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 14:36:54 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:36:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Stasguard Bible
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin>
	<00d301c59c40$f52af3c0$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <00a601c59c48$26d46800$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

If you are in touch with this Brogan guy, Robin, I'd love to know where he 
found out about reverse rhyme.  I've read more than a few summaries of 
poetic devices and never seen it mentioned, nor had a poet recognize 
examples of it as rhyme rather than alliteration and assonance--until you 
did.  While on the subject, would you know if Owen was first user of what I 
call rim-rhyme (a far better name for it than "pararhyme," which is much 
less specific)?

--Bob G. 





From clitophon  Mon Aug  8 14:44:57 2005
From: clitophon (Paul Murphy)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nordbad
In-Reply-To: <00a601c59c48$26d46800$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20050808184457.75216.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com>

yes, I agree that they are like sculptor?s drawings
(I?m glad you said that because I was thinking
it...except that I don?t sculpt...)
I agree with you about the US, there is something
lacking in terms of much cynicism but not really the
balls to back it up.   I think ?Nam made them look
silly and they?ve been sucking their plums, both
literally and metaphorically, ever since.  One vital
clue to the Presidency was the ?Nam war record but it
never really got going because Kerry looked
(literally) like a revived corpse or something other
from the imaginings of Mary Shelley.
Today Alexander?s holiday began so we went to Nordbad
for a sauna.  For breakfast we ate M?nchen Wei?wurst
and Wei?bier.  When you do Prost with Wei?bier you
click the bottom of the glass.  With the bier in the
Ma?, the top.  Alexander drinks an awful lot and most
times its just a case of me staying a bit offside
until the getting pissed contest is over and then
going off to the Glyptothek for more work. 
Unfortunately we got involved in an awful drinking
contest 2 weeks ago which I was sucked into, met an
American girl and brought her back to the flat.  All I
can remember is coming to in a hotel room but I was
alone by this stage and awfully hung over.  Then the
next night Alexander and I were in the Hofbrauhaus
when I asked him if his spell as a homosexual had
helped his psychosis when he answered in a booming
voice ?es I have had sex with men on several
occasions?and an American woman with her family turned
around and asked us to be quiet.  I stormed out in a
real huff, citing both the Stasi and the Gestapo to
her and met Alexander at the flat later on, he having
disappeared off to the pissoir in the meantime.  
Today he told me it was Gay Day in Nordbad, but it
wasn?t.  However, there were clearly Gay men and women
there, M?nchen being very Gay tolerant.  Alexander
slept in the Ruheraum and I had 4 aufgu? before he
came to and ambled off for Currywurst.


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 15:40:42 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:40:42 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Stasguard Bible
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin><00d301c59c40$f52af3c0$d3309b51@Robin>
	<00a601c59c48$26d46800$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <010401c59c51$11dd5890$d3309b51@Robin>

Reverse order answer, Bob:

> If you are in touch with this Brogan guy, Robin, I'd love to know where he
> found out about reverse rhyme.

I don't know him personally (though I'm willing to bet someone else on the
list does).  I first came on his work oh maybe 15 years ago via +English
Versification [a bibliography]+ which more than a little impressed me.

(I thought it was on line now, free -- certainly was at one point -- but I
can't seem to get to it via google so it may have been pulled).

As to where he came on reverse rhyme, dunno.  The sense I had from my quick
shufti at the NPEPP article was that he was pulling together all the C V C
combinations, but I was pretty much going from the chase to the kill around
your and Tad's points when I did my post and didn't (re)read the whole
thing.  So the answer may be embedded in the whole article somewhere.

> I've read more than a few summaries of
> poetic devices and never seen it mentioned, nor had a poet recognize
> examples of it as rhyme rather than alliteration and assonance--until you
> did.

Well, I was simply quoting T.V.F.B, here, so no credit to me.  But he *does*
distinguish it from alliteration and assonance in his catagorisation.

Me, I'm a simple full rhyme, half rhyme, sod the rest guy myself.  <g>

> While on the subject, would you know if Owen was first user of what I
> call rim-rhyme (a far better name for it than "pararhyme," which is much
> less specific)?

Well, as far as I know (and again, I'm sure the answer to that is in
Brogan's NPEPP piece somewhere), he was, and called it either pararhyme or
half-rhyme.

Other than that, between about 1375 and 1900, full (or strict) rhyme was
virtually the absolute norm -- how it's possible to work out how people
pronounced things then.

{Although ...

            And yonder all before us lie
            Deserts of vast eternity.

... never been able to resolve that, myself.}

Back to your previous.

Robin








From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 15:53:51 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:53:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] First Draft of a Long Essay on Literary Taxonomy
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin>
	<00d301c59c40$f52af3c0$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <00c001c59c53$0546ecc0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Taxonomical Considerations Concerning My First Long Division Poem

                 rain                                                               woods ) spring                                                                          ***********green ********************* 

              robins   

I have no idea how to show the work above in an e.mail to New-Poetry, but its first line is "rain"; its second line is "woods ) spring," with spring under the underlined "rain"; its third line is "green," with "green" under "spring"; and its last line, under "green," is "robins."  It should look like a long division example but with words instead of numbers.  

It is my first long division poem ever, and probably my most popular mathemaku, but several years after I made it--and added similar ones for each of the other seasons--I became dissatisfied with it. It seemed much too simple. This led to my improving it considerably--in my opinion. For a while, I thought I'd disown my first version, then decided it worked well as an introduction to mathemaku--and I'm not wholly against accessible art.

Lately, I realized it might make a good illustration of my thinking as a taxonomist of the arts. Its place in the arts as a mathematical poem would be accepted by most people without much hesitation. Indeed, so far as I can tell, it has been. Some who have thought long and hard about exactly what poetry is, though, have denied that it, and similar works, are poems. As one who strives for rigorous definitions myself, I respect their view--although I contend that it is wrong.

As a taxonomist, my first question regarding this piece is what's in it? Answer: words and mathematical symbols indicating a mathematical operation. Hence, for me, it must be one of three things: some kind of mathematical work, some kind of verbal work, or some kind of synthesis of the two. I should note that there are those who would term it a visual poem--because it looks different from normal poems, and you have to see it on the page fully to understand it. I reject this reasoning on the grounds that a visual poem should give one experiencing it a significant amount of visual pleasure, and I can't see that being the case here. The visual elements involved tell the person experiencing the work how to experience it rather than presenting an aesthetic experience for him to appreciate. Admittedly, this can only be ascertained subjectively, but to me it seems an easy matter in this case (and most cases)--that is, something a consensus of informed judges would quickly agree to. (The work can also be presented orally, although that would cost it much of its punch.) 

So, next question: is it a mathematical work? No. Clearly, it has no mathematical terms; it carries out a mathematical operation, but the answer it leads to is far from mathematically inevitable. Is it, then, a verbal work? Well, it seems to me that it is decisively more verbal than anything else. If you remove its words, nothing is left but an empty mathematical framework signifying just about nothing. If, on the other hand, you remove the mathematical apparatus from it, you still have a meaningful set of words. 

Should we call it a verbal work, then? Not necessarily, for it might be wiser to call it neither mathematical nor verbal--a "mathaesthetem," or "work of mathaesthetry--composed by a mathaesthet," say. Sorry, as a taxonomist, I would have to say no--even if someone came up with much better terminology. As a taxonomist, I believe a category--in this case, a phylum (in my taxonomy) under the kingdom, Art--ought to cover roughly as much territory as each other category at its level, and/or cover matter decisively different from the matter covered by those other categories. If I accepted "mathaesthetry" as a phylum sharing a level with literature, illumagery (as I call visual art), and music, it would be sort of like making a special category for whales and dolphins between fish and mammals. It would also go against my assigning regular drama to literature (because its verbal elements seem to me more important than its visual elements) opera, a pluraesthetic art like my work, to music (because I consider its music aesthetically more important than its words and visual elements), musical drama to literature (because its music and visual elements seem less important than its words), architecture to illumagery (because its visual elements seem to me more important than its technological or engineering elements), and the dance to illumagery (because its visual elements seem to me more important than its dramatic elements--which are, in any case, non-verbal). It would go against the similar practices of conventional (mostly implicit) taxonomies, too--except, I believe, in the case of the dance, which I really haven't thought deeply about what to do with.

In short, it seems most sensible to call my mathemaku a work of literature. But what kind of literature? There are two choices in my taxonomy (and most others that I know of): poetry and prose. Of course, I could create a third, mathaesthetry, but won't, for the same reason I didn't think mathaesthetry an appropriate phylum under Art. So, it's poetry or prose. It's difficult to determine which it is because there is no universally-accepted definition of "poetry." It is unarguably not poetry if one defines poetry as metrical verse only, as some do. Such a definition is taxonomically indefensible, however, for the same reason a separate category, at any level in a system of classification, for mathaesthetry would be--if we take everything that has distinguished poetry from prose for millenia.

It is true that most poetry in English (which is all I'm concerned with here) until this century differed from prose in its emphasis on auditory effects: patterned rhythms and repeated sounds. If we raise our investigation of what poetry has been to a higher level of generalization, I believe it legitimate to say that it has been words used to maximize the fundaceptual pleasure the person experiencing them gets from the subject of those words. By "fundaceptual pleasure," I mean sensory and/or endocrinal and/or muscular pleasure.

Wait. I'm speaking of poetry as art, not as propaganda or information, for I'm writing about a taxonomy of art, here. I see that I am also speaking of lyrical poetry, thus neglecting narrative poetry. That makes sense to me because, if my mathemaku is any kind of poetry, it is lyrical poetry. So, what counts in lyrical poetry is fundaceptual pleasure, mainly visual and auditory pleasure, but also the visceral or endocrinological pleasure of simple serenity, or of sexual health, or the physiological pleasure of making a great shot in tennis, and so forth. 

One important way a lyric poem can cause fundaceptual pleasure is through the patterned rhythms and repeated sounds already mentioned. But that is far from the only way it can do this, and is not the most important way. Presentation of imagery vividly and freshly is a second way that I believe most poetry-lovers would agree is as valuable as meter and rhyme in lyrica poetry. Metaphor, as Aristotle declared, is the greatest element of the best poetry, however--for it presents what one might call layered imagery. It results in putting a person experiencing it into what I call Manywhere-at-Once. Two or more previously unconnected, important parts, of one's brain. Take Shakespeare's winter boughs as "bare ruined choirs" (Sonnet 73)--when one first encounters these, one is transported to a place in one's brain that holds memories of winter woods and--at the same time--to a place in one's brain that holds a memory of an empty choir in a church. One will also experience a memory in a third separate place of what being old means to one, because the poem associates the boughs with its speaker's time of life.

Another difference between poetry and prose is utilitarian: devices in poetry to slow a person's experience of it, so as to give him extra time fully to appreciate the fundaceptual pleasure it should result in. Hence, the lineation all poems up to recently have had in print (and, I believe, when spoken)--and other, later forms of what I call "flow-breaks," such as unexpected indentations and white space somewhere in the middle of lines

Poems, too, have always tended to be more artificial and/or riskily unconventional in language than prose--to accentuate their being poems and thus texts that require a different kind of attention than prose, as well as simply to shock the person experiencing a poem into greater alertness. Related to this is poetry's generally trying much more to seem freshly worded than prose (because words have always counted more in poetry than in prose, which is concerned much more than poetry in what the words are about). Richly connotative words, I might add, are a staple of poetry, not prose, which tends to have narrower aims 

To sum up, I claim that poetry through the ages has differed from prose in its emphasis on eight elements: (1) meter, (2) repetition of sounds, (3) imagery, (4) figurative language, (5) lineation or other flow-breaks, (6) artificial language, (7) fresh language, (8) connotativeness. While it is true that the first of these has been a hallmark of poetry in English for centuries, and that almost nothing called poetry in English did not have it, written poetry, was always lineated, too, (literary) prose never. Hence, when free verse came about, and the question of whether it was poetry or prose arose, one could say it was not because it was unmetrical--or one could say it was because it was lineated. The fact that it used repetition of sounds the way traditional poetry did rather than as prose did, focused on imagery, figurative language and connotativeness far more than normal prose did (and often more than traditional poetry did), and (eventually) came to use language much more freshly than most traditional poems did, makes it hard for me to understand why anyone would classify it as prose rather than poetry. Moreover, everything that experimental free verse has added to its composers' tool kit (e.g., visual and infra-verbal devices, the jump-cut, new ways of performing poems, averbal sound effects) has been in the service of maximizing fundaceptual pleasure. What did it do to the degree that prose did, besides mostly avoid artificial language, and meter? And how can something that looks like poetry on a page, and tends to emphasize just about everything that traditional poetry emphasized and little that prose has seriously be considered prose?

Obviously, I am arguing that my mathemaku be considered poetry. It is a veritable metaphor machine, compelling one who understands its simple operation to take the multiplication of the the term, "woods," by the term, "rain," as a metaphor for spring, as is the addition of the term, "robins" to the term, "green." I can't see that the work tries to do anything but maximize the fundaceptual pleasure of its restatement (in fresh language) of the truism that rain makes vegetation create leaves in spring. I wouldn't call it lineated, though it looks like it is, but it is full of flow-breaks. Where does it act like prose (except in its extremely commonplace language)? Is it possible to find a passage in any text everyone agrees is prose that is similar to it? In short, if it is not poetry, what is it?

--Bob Grumman








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From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug  8 16:17:28 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:17:28 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ah Hominem Attacks
Message-ID: <009401c59c56$3391f090$abdf3652@ANNY>


Not too long ago I had to go through a very unpleasant question, so complicated that I will try to outline the main facts.

I had a review sent to me by X (woman) in Italian of an English author with 3 translated poems. One day I received a mail by Y (man) who says that 2 of the three poems were translated by him, but that one was so spoilt by the hand of X that he would like only one credited to him. And that the same X told him to contact me.

I thus credited the poem.

>From this moment the nightmare started. X wrote to the webmaster of my site with very unpleasant words against me, wrote an incredible page on her blog against me, tried to contact another webmaster and editor who is my friend, and so and such.

I was sort of leaning down the wrong side of the line. Someone even told me: "Every experience has its own meaning, in Buddhism (or God knows what else she told me) you might have done the same thing to someone..." Jeex, right what I did not need.

Finally this friend of mine, artist and psychotherapist, and what-have-you wrote the following, here is my _ F R I E N D_ ! I took my time to translate the message. At this point I let publicly know on a list what I was actually doing, i.e. teaching three courses of judges, which I am still doing, and that many of my friends are lawyers. The said X took down her vitriolic page from her blog, as I took away from the POets' Corner any of her contributions. Here is my friend's analysis for your pleasure.

"What seems evident is that the said Lady omnipotens has a great wish to tear out your guts.

 Feminist, as only the dated feminists could be and dared, aged and out of time, she has not sufficiently elaborated her own womanliness that she expands in a persecutory, divinatory manner of a defrauded Narcissistic I. Maybe she goes to the barber one day yes, and the other also, because of that beard and moustache that envelope her copiously, harmonically, up to the middle of her brain, unconsciously persecuted by the anguish of being castrated since her birth. By blackmailing she floods in a "slyconceptualintellectual" way singing hosannas to herself, while it is more than evident that such a presumption subtends nothing but an anguishing fear of losing her supposed power, on the ex-lover she fears you took away from her? Or the dominion on him and on his thoughts because she had created him and only she will be able to keep him alive or kill him? Because she unconsciously fears you and she is afraid that you are better and more intelligent than her? Therefore, she is dangerous not only because she is almighty, but even more because her anguish of loss is functional to her jealousy that in an underhand way she masks with disparaging revenge against you. But are you sure that law is on her side? Is it not better if you ask some help to a lawyer friend, expert on the subject, who could bring some light into this question? She has blackmailed you and libeled you (and openly with so many witnesses!), are you sure that her attitude is legally correct? Are libels and blackmails allowed by law? I think she has pushed herself beyond what is lawful, and this is not good. Whatever reason this _lady translator_ could have had, I think that her almightiness has gone beyond any limit and decency. Therefore, do not let yourself be influenced by "her persecution", or by your too kind manners, take the situation in your hands and consult a lawyer."



Some people can hurt. I brought up this question quite unwillingly, it was much better buried where I had left it. What is most absurd is that this should be the field of the Arts, of Poetry!



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 16:33:41 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:33:41 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin>
	<009501c59c47$35b850d0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <011b01c59c58$77883f00$d3309b51@Robin>

BG:

> about pararhymes or, better, "rim-rhymes":

RH:

> > They're all rhymes, certainly, but they're *not*
> > all "full" rhymes (the c V C combination) -- not identical in mechanism
or
> > effect -- otherwise why did Owen go to the trouble of using pararhyme
> > rather
> > than "rhyme strictly speaking" in the first place?

BH:

> Full in the sense that the rhymnants, as I call the words that rhyme, are
> identical except for one irreducible sound, and thus, by my logic, "full,"
> unlike so-called "half-rhymes."

RH (finally):

I can see the logic of this -- what I earlier today <g> discovered could be
referred to as the C V C combination.

But I think you're up against (at least) two problems here -- why was the c
V C combination not just dominant but virtually *universal* for so long (and
is still default), and how the c V C is simply easier to write than any
other.

There are other problems ...

[I'd except the alliterative C v c but -- pace NPEPP/Brogan -- I'm not sure
I'd term that a rhyme.]

> Owen used rim rhyme instead of regular
> rhyme to increase his range of rhymes--and because of the novelty, no
doubt.

No to the former, yes to the latter.

> But I didn't know "full" was a technical term in use.

I grew-up with the term "full rhyme" (as opposed to "half-rhyme"), but
apparently it should be "strict rhyme" (as opposed to anything else like
assonance).

I don't see it makes that much difference, and I intend to carry-on using
the term ma grannie taught me at her knee.

> So call rim rhyme
> "full-scale rhyme."  All homologous sounds of two or more syllables
> identical (or close enough to it) except one.

... or out of three sounds in a consonant-vowel-consonant sequence, two are
analogous.

(I notice we're both pussyfootying around the term "identical" here, for
good&sufficient reasons.)

> I was surprised to find "reverse rhyme," which is the what I've also
called
> it, with its own entry in the Princeton.

See my previous post.

> It has not entry in the previous
> edition.

Now you're just trying to make me feel bad -- I *knew* I should have
checked-back from the 1993 edition to 1974 -- got both on my shelves.

Look, if you're +that+ bothered, I'll scan the pages in the 1973 PEPP and
backchannel them to you and you can cross-check for yourself!

        <snarl>

> My influence?  No chance, I'm sure--although I discuss reverse
> rhyme (as "aft-segment" rhyme) in the first, 1990, edition of my Of
> Manywhere-at-Once.

Well, you and Brogan DO use the same illustration, I suppose.

                :-(

> The Princeton first mentions it in 1993.

Yes, but ...

NPEPP is a terminus ad quem, drawing on Received Material.

So for you to get credit, you'd have to argue that between 1990 and 1993
[and let's not forget publication drag] somehow Tim Brogan came on your
comments and incorporated them in a standard work of reference (carefully
concealing his tracks by changing the name of the term you apply to the
phenomenon).

Occam's Razor, matey -- more likely is that the concept existed (and was
named) well before you (re)discovered it in 1990 and (re)named it.

            <g>

> Anyone know of
> a poem that uses it?  Or a poet that uses it as a rhyme rather than as
> alliteration that happens by accident to make a reverse rhyme.

        Nope.

> The Princeton, by the way, says "many might deny that (reverse rhyme) is
> rhyme at all, since it thwarts the 'begin differently, end the same'
> structure that is rhyme."  So, perhaps the Princeton is a Bible for
> stasguards but occasionally inexplicably mentions new stuff.

Possibly, but it's still my first (though not my last) court-of-call.

> I would be a stasguard about tack/cat, which some would call a different
> kind of reverse rhyme than the kind so far discussed.  "Cat" is "tack"
> reversed.

Cool!  I'm off to write a poem based on that -- "What happens when you cross
a tack with a cat? -- Ask one of Schroedinger's kittens."

        [I can *hear* tack/cat easier than I can hear back/bad -- bite it
and see.]

> No rhyme, for me, because only one sound is repeated in
> place--the repetitions cannot occur connectedly.  No reason not to use it
as
> a kind of partial rhyme, though.

Meanie!!!!

The Lesser Ionic Ascending Footprint





From marcus  Mon Aug  8 16:59:58 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:59:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
In-Reply-To: <011b01c59c58$77883f00$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <42F78F8E.15211.224EE1F@localhost>

Who was it who said "Assonance is getting the rhyme wrong"?

Marcus


On 8 Aug 2005 at 21:33, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> BG:
> 
> > about pararhymes or, better, "rim-rhymes":
> 
> RH:
> 
> > > They're all rhymes, certainly, but they're *not*
> > > all "full" rhymes (the c V C combination) -- not identical in mechanism
> or
> > > effect -- otherwise why did Owen go to the trouble of using pararhyme
> > > rather
> > > than "rhyme strictly speaking" in the first place?
> 
> BH:
> 
> > Full in the sense that the rhymnants, as I call the words that rhyme, are
> > identical except for one irreducible sound, and thus, by my logic, "full,"
> > unlike so-called "half-rhymes."
> 
> RH (finally):
> 
> I can see the logic of this -- what I earlier today <g> discovered could be
> referred to as the C V C combination.
> 
> But I think you're up against (at least) two problems here -- why was the c
> V C combination not just dominant but virtually *universal* for so long (and
> is still default), and how the c V C is simply easier to write than any
> other.
> 
> There are other problems ...
> 
> [I'd except the alliterative C v c but -- pace NPEPP/Brogan -- I'm not sure
> I'd term that a rhyme.]
> 
> > Owen used rim rhyme instead of regular
> > rhyme to increase his range of rhymes--and because of the novelty, no
> doubt.
> 
> No to the former, yes to the latter.
> 
> > But I didn't know "full" was a technical term in use.
> 
> I grew-up with the term "full rhyme" (as opposed to "half-rhyme"), but
> apparently it should be "strict rhyme" (as opposed to anything else like
> assonance).
> 
> I don't see it makes that much difference, and I intend to carry-on using
> the term ma grannie taught me at her knee.
> 
> > So call rim rhyme
> > "full-scale rhyme."  All homologous sounds of two or more syllables
> > identical (or close enough to it) except one.
> 
> ... or out of three sounds in a consonant-vowel-consonant sequence, two are
> analogous.
> 
> (I notice we're both pussyfootying around the term "identical" here, for
> good&sufficient reasons.)
> 
> > I was surprised to find "reverse rhyme," which is the what I've also
> called
> > it, with its own entry in the Princeton.
> 
> See my previous post.
> 
> > It has not entry in the previous
> > edition.
> 
> Now you're just trying to make me feel bad -- I *knew* I should have
> checked-back from the 1993 edition to 1974 -- got both on my shelves.
> 
> Look, if you're +that+ bothered, I'll scan the pages in the 1973 PEPP and
> backchannel them to you and you can cross-check for yourself!
> 
>         <snarl>
> 
> > My influence?  No chance, I'm sure--although I discuss reverse
> > rhyme (as "aft-segment" rhyme) in the first, 1990, edition of my Of
> > Manywhere-at-Once.
> 
> Well, you and Brogan DO use the same illustration, I suppose.
> 
>                 :-(
> 
> > The Princeton first mentions it in 1993.
> 
> Yes, but ...
> 
> NPEPP is a terminus ad quem, drawing on Received Material.
> 
> So for you to get credit, you'd have to argue that between 1990 and 1993
> [and let's not forget publication drag] somehow Tim Brogan came on your
> comments and incorporated them in a standard work of reference (carefully
> concealing his tracks by changing the name of the term you apply to the
> phenomenon).
> 
> Occam's Razor, matey -- more likely is that the concept existed (and was
> named) well before you (re)discovered it in 1990 and (re)named it.
> 
>             <g>
> 
> > Anyone know of
> > a poem that uses it?  Or a poet that uses it as a rhyme rather than as
> > alliteration that happens by accident to make a reverse rhyme.
> 
>         Nope.
> 
> > The Princeton, by the way, says "many might deny that (reverse rhyme) is
> > rhyme at all, since it thwarts the 'begin differently, end the same'
> > structure that is rhyme."  So, perhaps the Princeton is a Bible for
> > stasguards but occasionally inexplicably mentions new stuff.
> 
> Possibly, but it's still my first (though not my last) court-of-call.
> 
> > I would be a stasguard about tack/cat, which some would call a different
> > kind of reverse rhyme than the kind so far discussed.  "Cat" is "tack"
> > reversed.
> 
> Cool!  I'm off to write a poem based on that -- "What happens when you cross
> a tack with a cat? -- Ask one of Schroedinger's kittens."
> 
>         [I can *hear* tack/cat easier than I can hear back/bad -- bite it
> and see.]
> 
> > No rhyme, for me, because only one sound is repeated in
> > place--the repetitions cannot occur connectedly.  No reason not to use it
> as
> > a kind of partial rhyme, though.
> 
> Meanie!!!!
> 
> The Lesser Ionic Ascending Footprint
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 17:15:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:15:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <42F78F8E.15211.224EE1F@localhost>
Message-ID: <013d01c59c5e$4927a140$d3309b51@Robin>

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>

> Who was it who said "Assonance is getting the rhyme wrong"?
>
> Marcus

A lame-brain with a tin ear and no sense of literary history.

        Wulfstan

{"Consonance, assonance, dissonance -- when I hear those terms, I
automatically reach for my Walther."

    At least Mussolini made the trains run on time.

            Or did he?

Stravrogin.}








From thom424  Mon Aug  8 17:18:15 2005
From: thom424 (thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:18:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
In-Reply-To: <42F78F8E.15211.224EE1F@localhost>
Message-ID: <8C76A75D2E1BA38-D44-11245@mblk-d40.sysops.aol.com>

Rita, in the play EDUCATING RITA (1980) by Willy Russell. Also in the 
film version with Michael Caine & Julie Waters as Rita.


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 16:59:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains

   X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
Who was it who said "Assonance is getting the rhyme wrong"?

Marcus


On 8 Aug 2005 at 21:33, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> BG:
>
> > about pararhymes or, better, "rim-rhymes":
>
> RH:
>
> > > They're all rhymes, certainly, but they're *not*
> > > all "full" rhymes (the c V C combination) -- not identical in 
mechanism
> or
> > > effect -- otherwise why did Owen go to the trouble of using 
pararhyme
> > > rather
> > > than "rhyme strictly speaking" in the first place?
>
> BH:
>
> > Full in the sense that the rhymnants, as I call the words that 
rhyme, are
> > identical except for one irreducible sound, and thus, by my logic, 
"full,"
> > unlike so-called "half-rhymes."
>
> RH (finally):
>
> I can see the logic of this -- what I earlier today <g> discovered 
could be
> referred to as the C V C combination.
>
> But I think you're up against (at least) two problems here -- why was 
the c
> V C combination not just dominant but virtually *universal* for so 
long (and
> is still default), and how the c V C is simply easier to write than 
any
> other.
>
> There are other problems ...
>
> [I'd except the alliterative C v c but -- pace NPEPP/Brogan -- I'm 
not sure
> I'd term that a rhyme.]
>
> > Owen used rim rhyme instead of regular
> > rhyme to increase his range of rhymes--and because of the novelty, 
no
> doubt.
>
> No to the former, yes to the latter.
>
> > But I didn't know "full" was a technical term in use.
>
> I grew-up with the term "full rhyme" (as opposed to "half-rhyme"), but
> apparently it should be "strict rhyme" (as opposed to anything else 
like
> assonance).
>
> I don't see it makes that much difference, and I intend to carry-on 
using
> the term ma grannie taught me at her knee.
>
> > So call rim rhyme
> > "full-scale rhyme."  All homologous sounds of two or more syllables
> > identical (or close enough to it) except one.
>
> ... or out of three sounds in a consonant-vowel-consonant sequence, 
two are
> analogous.
>
> (I notice we're both pussyfootying around the term "identical" here, 
for
> good&sufficient reasons.)
>
> > I was surprised to find "reverse rhyme," which is the what I've also
> called
> > it, with its own entry in the Princeton.
>
> See my previous post.
>
> > It has not entry in the previous
> > edition.
>
> Now you're just trying to make me feel bad -- I *knew* I should have
> checked-back from the 1993 edition to 1974 -- got both on my shelves.
>
> Look, if you're +that+ bothered, I'll scan the pages in the 1973 PEPP 
and
> backchannel them to you and you can cross-check for yourself!
>
>         <snarl>
>
> > My influence?  No chance, I'm sure--although I discuss reverse
> > rhyme (as "aft-segment" rhyme) in the first, 1990, edition of my Of
> > Manywhere-at-Once.
>
> Well, you and Brogan DO use the same illustration, I suppose.
>
>                 :-(
>
> > The Princeton first mentions it in 1993.
>
> Yes, but ...
>
> NPEPP is a terminus ad quem, drawing on Received Material.
>
> So for you to get credit, you'd have to argue that between 1990 and 
1993
> [and let's not forget publication drag] somehow Tim Brogan came on 
your
> comments and incorporated them in a standard work of reference 
(carefully
> concealing his tracks by changing the name of the term you apply to 
the
> phenomenon).
>
> Occam's Razor, matey -- more likely is that the concept existed (and 
was
> named) well before you (re)discovered it in 1990 and (re)named it.
>
>             <g>
>
> > Anyone know of
> > a poem that uses it?  Or a poet that uses it as a rhyme rather than 
as
> > alliteration that happens by accident to make a reverse rhyme.
>
>         Nope.
>
> > The Princeton, by the way, says "many might deny that (reverse 
rhyme) is
> > rhyme at all, since it thwarts the 'begin differently, end the same'
> > structure that is rhyme."  So, perhaps the Princeton is a Bible for
> > stasguards but occasionally inexplicably mentions new stuff.
>
> Possibly, but it's still my first (though not my last) court-of-call.
>
> > I would be a stasguard about tack/cat, which some would call a 
different
> > kind of reverse rhyme than the kind so far discussed.  "Cat" is 
"tack"
> > reversed.
>
> Cool!  I'm off to write a poem based on that -- "What happens when 
you cross
> a tack with a cat? -- Ask one of Schroedinger's kittens."
>
>         [I can *hear* tack/cat easier than I can hear back/bad -- 
bite it
> and see.]
>
> > No rhyme, for me, because only one sound is repeated in
> > place--the repetitions cannot occur connectedly.  No reason not to 
use it
> as
> > a kind of partial rhyme, though.
>
> Meanie!!!!
>
> The Lesser Ionic Ascending Footprint
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    



From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 17:42:28 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:42:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <8C76A75D2E1BA38-D44-11245@mblk-d40.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <015701c59c62$1384b740$d3309b51@Robin>

> Rita, in the play EDUCATING RITA (1980) by Willy Russell. Also in the
> film version with Michael Caine & Julie Waters as Rita.

        Geez, *that* takes me back!

Did JW's Rita *actually* say that to Michael Caine's character?

    How sixties!

                Talk about Green Julia!!!

        Johann Sebastian Mendel was a useful man.

Even here, I thought you couldn't float a sixties allusion to a Paul Ableman
play that ran *that* deep.

            <g>

Abelard's Second Executioner





From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 18:05:29 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:05:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin><009501c59c47$35b850d0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<011b01c59c58$77883f00$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <00e901c59c65$4b3ebd40$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> Full in the sense that the rhymnants, as I call the words that rhyme, are
>> identical except for one irreducible sound, and thus, by my logic, 
>> "full,"
>> unlike so-called "half-rhymes."
>
> RH (finally):
>
> I can see the logic of this -- what I earlier today <g> discovered could 
> be
> referred to as the C V C combination.
>
> But I think you're up against (at least) two problems here -- why was the 
> c
> V C combination not just dominant but virtually *universal* for so long 
> (and
> is still default), and how the c V C is simply easier to write than any
> other.

Meter was virtually universal, too.  Lots of things stayed the same.  c V C 
may have just been first, and no one later got bored enough with it to 
expand rhyme.  I do think that c V C is probably more forceful than C v C 
and C V c because it includes a space, or end-null, in its chain of 
repetition.  So, maybe one could call it a fuller rhyme than the others, 
after all.

The ease of writing is only because it's been established so long.  If it IS 
more easy.  I suspect lots of poets trying for alliteration make C V c's 
without thinking about it.

> There are other problems ...
>
> [I'd except the alliterative C v c but -- pace NPEPP/Brogan -- I'm not 
> sure
> I'd term that a rhyme.]

I'd never accept it.  It's just alliteration.


>> Owen used rim rhyme instead of regular
>> rhyme to increase his range of rhymes--and because of the novelty, no
> doubt.
>
> No to the former, yes to the latter.

How can you be sure of that?

>> But I didn't know "full" was a technical term in use.
>
> I grew-up with the term "full rhyme" (as opposed to "half-rhyme"), but
> apparently it should be "strict rhyme" (as opposed to anything else like
> assonance).

Actually, I now finally remember that "slant rhyme" is the term for 
Dickinson "rhyme" that I grew up with.

> I don't see it makes that much difference, and I intend to carry-on using
> the term ma grannie taught me at her knee.
>
>> So call rim rhyme
>> "full-scale rhyme."  All homologous sounds of two or more syllables
>> identical (or close enough to it) except one.
>
> ... or out of three sounds in a consonant-vowel-consonant sequence, two 
> are
> analogous.

With silence considered a consonant.  blue/crew, eight/fate,  oat/own, 
toe/tote


> (I notice we're both pussyfootying around the term "identical" here, for
> good&sufficient reasons.)

>> I was surprised to find "reverse rhyme," which is the what I've also
> called
>> it, with its own entry in the Princeton.
>
> See my previous post.
>
>> It has no entry in the previous
>> edition.
>
> Now you're just trying to make me feel bad -- I *knew* I should have
> checked-back from the 1993 edition to 1974 -- got both on my shelves.
>
> Look, if you're +that+ bothered, I'll scan the pages in the 1973 PEPP and
> backchannel them to you and you can cross-check for yourself!

Not bothered, just curious.

>        <snarl>
>
>> My influence?  No chance, I'm sure--although I discuss reverse
>> rhyme (as "aft-segment" rhyme) in the first, 1990, edition of my Of
>> Manywhere-at-Once.
>
> Well, you and Brogan DO use the same illustration, I suppose.
>
>                :-(

I used different ones in my book.

>> The Princeton first mentions it in 1993.
>
> Yes, but ...
>
> NPEPP is a terminus ad quem, drawing on Received Material.

> So for you to get credit, you'd have to argue that between 1990 and 1993
> [and let's not forget publication drag] somehow Tim Brogan came on your
> comments and incorporated them in a standard work of reference (carefully
> concealing his tracks by changing the name of the term you apply to the
> phenomenon).

More like some student of his read something by or about me, remembered only 
the peculiar backwards rhyme, and asked the professor if anyone would 
consider shit to rhyme with ship, and the professor said of course not, but 
the student persisted, describing the logic of accepting the two words to 
rhyme, and the professor agreed with him: "Yes, perhaps there is such a 
thing as this . . . reversed rhyme.  Where'd you come across it?"
"Oh, in some zine.  Can't remember the name of it, or who it was that 
mentioned it."  Etc.  But I doubt that this happened, and only slightly care 
(because I HAVE DEFINITELY INVENTED IMPORTANT OTHER STUFF LIKE THE 
INTERNET!!!)


> Occam's Razor, matey -- more likely is that the concept existed (and was
> named) well before you (re)discovered it in 1990 and (re)named it.

I discovered and used it in poems around 1965, but would be surprised if I 
was the first to.

>            <g>
>
>> Anyone know of
>> a poem that uses it?  Or a poet that uses it as a rhyme rather than as
>> alliteration that happens by accident to make a reverse rhyme.
>
>        Nope.
>
>> The Princeton, by the way, says "many might deny that (reverse rhyme) is
>> rhyme at all, since it thwarts the 'begin differently, end the same'
>> structure that is rhyme."  So, perhaps the Princeton is a Bible for
>> stasguards but occasionally inexplicably mentions new stuff.
>
> Possibly, but it's still my first (though not my last) court-of-call.

It seems quite good for stuff up to 1950 or so.  It seems to try to be more 
current.


>> I would be a stasguard about tack/cat, which some would call a different
>> kind of reverse rhyme than the kind so far discussed.  "Cat" is "tack"
>> reversed.
>
> Cool!  I'm off to write a poem based on that -- "What happens when you 
> cross
> a tack with a cat? -- Ask one of Schroedinger's kittens."
>
>        [I can *hear* tack/cat easier than I can hear back/bad -- bite it
> and see.]

How about back/bat?  The d in "bad" sort of pulls "bad" away from "back."


>> No rhyme, for me, because only one sound is repeated in
>> place--the repetitions cannot occur connectedly.  No reason not to use it
> as
>> a kind of partial rhyme, though.
>
> Meanie!!!!
>
> The Lesser Ionic Ascending Footprint

Thanks for the input 





From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 18:52:17 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:52:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin><009501c59c47$35b850d0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><011b01c59c58$77883f00$d3309b51@Robin>
	<00e901c59c65$4b3ebd40$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <019a01c59c6b$d48d7040$d3309b51@Robin>

Bob Grumman wrote:

> Meter was virtually universal, too.  Lots of things stayed the same.  c V
C
> may have just been first ...

... actually, the (historically) earliest [in  the Germanic languages] was
the [alliterative] C v c sequence, and they got bored with that (even in
Scots) early.

> and no one later got bored enough with it to
> expand rhyme.

        Oh dear, do tell *that* to the author of +The Owl and the
Nightingale+, leave alone Chaucer ...

                   <g>

> I do think that c V C is probably more forceful than C v C
> and C V c because it includes a space, or end-null, in its chain of
> repetition.  So, maybe one could call it a fuller rhyme than the others,
> after all.

        Bob, that's just so much utterly pusilanimous crap it simply don't
bear *thinking* about.

                    <g>

Take you on over this tomorrow, if I remember.

> The ease of writing is only because it's been established so long.

        Bullshit.

More to it than that.

> If it IS
> more easy.

It is -- and you know this as well as I do.

            R.





From cmurray  Mon Aug  8 19:01:28 2005
From: cmurray (Murray, Christine)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:01:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Ah Hominem Attacks
Message-ID: <9EE462CF4CE0344B80A997EBF590AC9F03EE0B42@MAILFS1.uta.edu>

Dear Anny,

I read with alarm your post, but am glad that you were able to give 
this account of the kind of outcome to which ad hominem attacks can lead.
My good thoughts are with you, and I send this note by way of support.  

The utter foolishness and/or wrecklessness of the person who attacked
you is made all the more apparent by the fact that there are few 
people in the poetry world who have done so much for so many, 
so graciously and unselfishly, as have you. 

This out-of-control person would be vicious to one of the kindest, 
most knowledgeable and giving poets writing today?  
That is incredibly stupid of her. 

I applaud you, Anny, and your continued good work for poetry and poets.
Thank you for all you do.  Please let me know if there is anything
I can do to help you in this situation.

Keep on!--please try not to let it get you down.
I think I am not alone in offering heartfelt support
and recognition for all the fine work you have done for so many.

Best Wishes,

Chris Murray
http://texfiles.blogspot.com
http://e-po.blogspot.com


  
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From bobgrumman  Mon Aug  8 19:10:10 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:10:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin><009501c59c47$35b850d0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><011b01c59c58$77883f00$d3309b51@Robin><00e901c59c65$4b3ebd40$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<019a01c59c6b$d48d7040$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <011a01c59c6e$53696980$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Bob Grumman wrote:
>
>> Meter was virtually universal, too.  Lots of things stayed the same.  c V
> C
>> may have just been first ...
>
> ... actually, the (historically) earliest [in  the Germanic languages] was
> the [alliterative] C v c sequence, and they got bored with that (even in
> Scots) early.

I meant first real rhyme.

>> and no one later got bored enough with it to
>> expand rhyme.
>
>        Oh dear, do tell *that* to the author of +The Owl and the
> Nightingale+, leave alone Chaucer ...
>
>                   <g>
>
>> I do think that c V C is probably more forceful than C v C
>> and C V c because it includes a space, or end-null, in its chain of
>> repetition.  So, maybe one could call it a fuller rhyme than the others,
>> after all.
>
>        Bob, that's just so much utterly pusilanimous crap it simply don't
> bear *thinking* about.

"Pusilanimous?"  Actually, I thought it a clever insight, though not brave. 
I really believe it.  We hear word-stops, or whatever they're called.


>                    <g>
>
> Take you on over this tomorrow, if I remember.
>
>> The ease of writing is only because it's been established so long.
>
>        Bullshit.

Well, I don't see how we could be sure without raising a hundred poets 
exposed to nothing but reverse rhyme, which we'd have to write for them, and 
a hundred exposed to . . . no, I'm not going to called it strict because 
it's no more strict than C V c or C v C rhyme.

I took a shift
as cabin boy
upon the ship
called "Honey-Bee."

I ended at
the cursed helm
and like an ass
sailed straight to Hell.

(help)

I dunno, Robin.  It sure felt to me like the above was as easy for me as c V 
C doggerel.

--Bob 





From mandolin  Mon Aug  8 21:23:16 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:23:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
Message-ID: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>

I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to  
backchannel to anyone. 384KB



From Rsgwynn1  Mon Aug  8 21:30:16 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:30:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
Message-ID: <19a.397595e0.30296128@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/8/2005 8:23:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> 
> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to  
> backchannel to anyone. 384KB
Please do!
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From mandolin  Mon Aug  8 21:30:29 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:30:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] brogan versification -- not quite
Message-ID: <3627048A-90C2-4F0F-8AEF-CA810E6A7A2E@mac.com>

I appear to have only the indices and table of contents

This ( http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/ 
sepfiles.html ) may be the whole thing




From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 22:09:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 03:09:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>

> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to
> backchannel to anyone. 384KB

            This is mildly silly.

Like Michael, I've the Versification files arked to my hard disk, but until
when, I'd assumed they were still live in cyberspace -- so what the *hell*
is going on?

Up till now, I'd assumed I was simply dumb-bunny from Glasgow -- but is
something funny going on?

            Surely *someone* knows ...

Look, this really *ain't* my territory, praise de lor', but surely
+somebunny+ knows?

            :-(

Robin
















From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug  8 23:00:13 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 04:00:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lomng Slow Wednesdays
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin><009501c59c47$35b850d0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><011b01c59c58$77883f00$d3309b51@Robin><00e901c59c65$4b3ebd40$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><019a01c59c6b$d48d7040$d3309b51@Robin>
	<011a01c59c6e$53696980$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <023101c59c8e$796aab10$d3309b51@Robin>

See, Bob ...

> I took a shift
> as cabin boy
> upon the ship
> called "Honey-Bee."
>
> I ended at
> the cursed helm
> and like an ass
> sailed straight to Hell.
>
> (help)
>
> I dunno, Robin.  It sure felt to me like the above was as easy for me as c
V
> C doggerel.

I was on a course with a hooker
        of ship called Malaria Jane -- 
When I took a chance at the helm,
        and the ship said back to me:

"You may be sharp as buggery,
    You may be fast as shit,
But on this desperate mountainside -- 
      This is no place to be."

Cold and fast and harvest,
    I only just survived --
Even now I'm surprised:
    Dead one, dead two ...

                            I survived ...

Count the cost up for the harvest,
    Count them right up to to the wrist,
Basically, dead man walking:

... makes you wonder, but?

        Just a thought.

Robin





From Kent.Johnson  Mon Aug  8 23:42:16 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:42:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Re: Lyric Poetry [review and response]
Message-ID: <s2f7dfe0.065@mail.highland.edu>

>From Jim Behrle to the President of my college.
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From Rsgwynn1  Tue Aug  9 00:21:03 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 00:21:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
Message-ID: <1ec.40ae4a3d.3029892f@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/8/2005 8:30:38 PM Central Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes: 
> 
> In a message dated 8/8/2005 8:23:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> >> 
>> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to  
>> backchannel to anyone. 384KB
> 
I tried the website and am not sure what came up in extended adobe format.  
What is this work that is displayed here?  Is it an online version of a book by 
Terry Brogan?
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From robin.hamilton2  Tue Aug  9 01:15:13 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:15:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <1ec.40ae4a3d.3029892f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <026e01c59ca1$537e21d0$d3309b51@Robin>

<<
I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to  
backchannel to anyone. 384KB

        {Actually, even zipped, 384 K suggests the index rather than the text.}

I tried the website and am not sure what came up in extended adobe format.  What is this work that is displayed here?  Is it an online version of a book by Terry Brogan? 
>>

What URL are you using, Sam?

The basic text is:   Brogan, T. V. F. English versification, 1570-1980 : a reference guide with a global appendix. Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, 1981.  

This was the basic text, originally hard-copy but it went free-on-line sometime in the late eighties.

At least two of us on this list seem to have had the basic nous to lift the the primary material before they pulled it and stick it on our hard disks.

        (But frankly that's irrelevant.)

The crunch of the work that Tim Brogan was doing is in the 1993 NPEPP, and that you can get paperback from amazon for maybe $30, less I imagine if you fancy it through a book-club.

Does this make the least blind bit of sense?

Do I care?

            <g>

Robin
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From grahamd  Tue Aug  9 01:22:42 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:22:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Strand's 100
Message-ID: <BF1DA7D1.13556%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Today's impulse check-out at the library:  *100 Great Poems of the Twentieth
Century*, edited by Mark Strand, just out from Norton.

Probably the world does not cry out for such a book, but I'm finding it a
lot of fun to page through nonetheless.  Well worth a look.

(Sidebar:  given the editor, the book is an utterly "mainstream" production,
it's probably needless to say--so perhaps it's needless to sigh or scream
about that fact?  Ah, I can hope. . . .)

Strand's introduction makes it clear that this is a highly personal
selection ("I have not chosen *the* hundred great poems, but *a* hundred
great poems")--he might well have titled it *My Top 100*--but even so, there
are some quirky choices and surprises.  He makes the interesting decision to
omit poets his own age or younger, and limits the Americans to half the
table of contents.  Perhaps he was afraid of offending too many of his
friends.  In any case, the selection is dominated by the dead.

Strand has made an effort to mix chestnuts ("Prufrock") with less obvious
choices (I've not sure I've ever seen Robert Hayden's "Witch Doctor"
anthologized, for instance, nor Berryman's "The Moon and the Night and the
Men"); and when was the last time you saw such a book represent Williams
with "These" instead of the damn red wheelbarrow?).  Strand also includes
more than the usual run of longer poems (Akhmatova's "Northern Elegies,"
e.g.)

Strand's taste is about what you'd expect if you've read his own poems and
translations--quite a lot of Latin American and European poets here along
with the Americans, for instance--but I imagine that just about everyone
reading the book will find some poet or poems that are unfamiliar.  Even,
perhaps, with poets you do know.

Here's one sample.  I'll leave the well-known author's name off--wonder how
many can immediately name the writer of this one, which has not exactly been
over-anthologized?



EVENING IN THE SANITARIUM

The free evening fades, outside the windows fastened with decorative iron
grilles.
The lamps are lighted; the shades drawn; the nurses are watching a little.
It is the hour of the complicated knitting on the safe bone needles; of the
games of anagrams and bridge;
The deadly game of chess; the book held up like a mask.

The period of the wildest weeping, the fiercest delusion, is over.
The women rest their tired half-healed hearts; they are almost well.
Some of them will stay almost well always: the blunt-faced woman whose
thinking dissolved
Under academic discipline; the manic-depressive girl
Now leveling off; one paranoiac afflicted with jealousy.
Another with persecution. Some alleviation has been possible.

O fortunate bride, who never again will become elated after childbirth!
O lucky older wife, who has been cured of feeling unwanted!
To the suburban railway station you will return, return,
To meet forever Jim home on the 5:35.
You will be again as normal and selfish and heartless as anybody else.

There is life left: the piano says it with its octave smile.
The soft carpets pad the thump and splinter of the suicide to be.
Everything will be splendid: the grandmother will not drink habitually.
The fruit salad will bloom on the plate like a bouquet
And the garden produce the blue-ribbon aquilegia.

The cats will be glad; the fathers feel justified; the mothers relieved.
The sons and husbands will no longer need to pay the bills.
Childhoods will be put away, the obscene nightmare abated.

At the ends of the corridors the baths are running.
Mrs. C. again feels the shadow of the obsessive idea.
Miss R. looks at the mantel-piece, which must mean something.

===========

In case you're interested, blurbs and further info at the Amazon page:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393058948/qid=1123550968/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4766159-5387112?v=glance&s=books




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From robin.hamilton2  Tue Aug  9 01:27:53 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 06:27:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Strand's 100
References: <BF1DA7D1.13556%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <027f01c59ca3$199fc2f0$d3309b51@Robin>

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>

> Here's one sample.  I'll leave the well-known author's name off--wonder
how
> many can immediately name the writer of this one, which has not exactly
been
> over-anthologized?

If it's not Robert Lowell, it might as well be.

        Robin

> EVENING IN THE SANITARIUM
>
> The free evening fades, outside the windows fastened with decorative iron
> grilles.





From anny.ballardini  Tue Aug  9 02:49:22 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:49:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Ah Hominem Attacks
References: <9EE462CF4CE0344B80A997EBF590AC9F03EE0B42@MAILFS1.uta.edu>
Message-ID: <003401c59cae$79c93840$eced3652@ANNY>

Re: Ah Hominem Attacks
Hello dear Chris,

thank you very much for your message. I understand that what you write has been written in some way to compensate the unpleasant event I had to go through, which I brought up because of what Kent Johnson is facing now.

Anyhow you have always had very nice words for me, and I will remember this. 

The listowners of the list on which I denounced the fact, list to which the said X was at the moment a subscriber, offered their own open and unselfish support, to whom I am still most grateful. And also several other people b/c me. I finally later on felt protected, and as I said the question was buried. 

It is extremely nice to see your name on this list, do pop in a little more often - whenever you can,

take care and till soon,
Anny Ballardini
  From: Murray, Christine 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:01 AM


  Dear Anny,

  I read with alarm your post, but am glad that you were able to give
  this account of the kind of outcome to which ad hominem attacks can lead.
  My good thoughts are with you, and I send this note by way of support. 

  The utter foolishness and/or wrecklessness of the person who attacked
  you is made all the more apparent by the fact that there are few
  people in the poetry world who have done so much for so many,
  so graciously and unselfishly, as have you.

  This out-of-control person would be vicious to one of the kindest,
  most knowledgeable and giving poets writing today? 
  That is incredibly stupid of her.

  I applaud you, Anny, and your continued good work for poetry and poets.
  Thank you for all you do.  Please let me know if there is anything
  I can do to help you in this situation.

  Keep on!--please try not to let it get you down.
  I think I am not alone in offering heartfelt support
  and recognition for all the fine work you have done for so many.

  Best Wishes,

  Chris Murray
  http://texfiles.blogspot.com
  http://e-po.blogspot.com


   




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From AlMaginnes  Tue Aug  9 07:18:33 2005
From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 07:18:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Strand's 100
Message-ID: <20f.6a58390.3029eb09@aol.com>

 
Louise Bogan? I  would not have guessed her. But I don't know her  stuff as 
well as I should. Nice poem, particularly the second stanza.
 
 
In a message dated 8/9/2005 1:21:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

Today's  impulse check-out at the library:  *100 Great Poems of the  Twentieth
Century*, edited by Mark Strand, just out from  Norton.

Probably the world does not cry out for such a book, but I'm  finding it a
lot of fun to page through nonetheless.  Well worth a  look.

(Sidebar:  given the editor, the book is an utterly  "mainstream" production,
it's probably needless to say--so perhaps it's  needless to sigh or scream
about that fact?  Ah, I can hope. . .  .)

Strand's introduction makes it clear that this is a highly  personal
selection ("I have not chosen *the* hundred great poems, but *a*  hundred
great poems")--he might well have titled it *My Top 100*--but even  so, there
are some quirky choices and surprises.  He makes the  interesting decision to
omit poets his own age or younger, and limits the  Americans to half the
table of contents.  Perhaps he was afraid of  offending too many of his
friends.  In any case, the selection is  dominated by the dead.

Strand has made an effort to mix chestnuts  ("Prufrock") with less obvious
choices (I've not sure I've ever seen Robert  Hayden's "Witch Doctor"
anthologized, for instance, nor Berryman's "The  Moon and the Night and the
Men"); and when was the last time you saw such a  book represent Williams
with "These" instead of the damn red  wheelbarrow?).  Strand also includes
more than the usual run of longer  poems (Akhmatova's "Northern Elegies,"
e.g.)

Strand's taste is about  what you'd expect if you've read his own poems and
translations--quite a  lot of Latin American and European poets here along
with the Americans, for  instance--but I imagine that just about everyone
reading the book will find  some poet or poems that are unfamiliar.  Even,
perhaps, with poets you  do know.

Here's one sample.  I'll leave the well-known author's  name off--wonder how
many can immediately name the writer of this one,  which has not exactly been
over-anthologized?



EVENING IN THE  SANITARIUM

The free evening fades, outside the windows fastened with  decorative iron
grilles.
The lamps are lighted; the shades drawn; the  nurses are watching a little.
It is the hour of the complicated knitting on  the safe bone needles; of the
games of anagrams and bridge;
The deadly  game of chess; the book held up like a mask.

The period of the wildest  weeping, the fiercest delusion, is over.
The women rest their tired  half-healed hearts; they are almost well.
Some of them will stay almost  well always: the blunt-faced woman whose
thinking dissolved
Under  academic discipline; the manic-depressive girl
Now leveling off; one  paranoiac afflicted with jealousy.
Another with persecution. Some  alleviation has been possible.

O fortunate bride, who never again will  become elated after childbirth!
O lucky older wife, who has been cured of  feeling unwanted!
To the suburban railway station you will return,  return,
To meet forever Jim home on the 5:35.
You will be again as  normal and selfish and heartless as anybody else.

There is life left:  the piano says it with its octave smile.
The soft carpets pad the thump and  splinter of the suicide to be.
Everything will be splendid: the grandmother  will not drink habitually.
The fruit salad will bloom on the plate like a  bouquet
And the garden produce the blue-ribbon aquilegia.

The cats  will be glad; the fathers feel justified; the mothers relieved.
The sons  and husbands will no longer need to pay the bills.
Childhoods will be put  away, the obscene nightmare abated.

At the ends of the corridors the  baths are running.
Mrs. C. again feels the shadow of the obsessive  idea.
Miss R. looks at the mantel-piece, which must mean  something.

===========

In case you're interested, blurbs and  further info at the Amazon  page:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393058948/qid=1123550968/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4766159-5387112?v=glance&s=books








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From mandolin  Tue Aug  9 07:54:38 2005
From: mandolin (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 07:54:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
In-Reply-To: <01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>
	<01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <16609612.1123588478303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, August 08, 2005, at 10:10PM, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:

>> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to
>> backchannel to anyone. 384KB
>
>            This is mildly silly.
>
>Like Michael, I've the Versification files arked to my hard disk, but until
>when, I'd assumed they were still live in cyberspace -- so what the *hell*
>is going on?
>
>Up till now, I'd assumed I was simply dumb-bunny from Glasgow -- but is
>something funny going on?
>
>            Surely *someone* knows ...
>
>Look, this really *ain't* my territory, praise de lor', but surely
>+somebunny+ knows?
>
>            :-(
>
>Robin
>
>

Some links are broken, but book is still there, here: http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/download.html

The get-it-all-in-one-chunk link on that page is to a self-extracting zip (5.2 mB) which only works on Windows machines. I use Macs at home (being a Windows developer has made me a Mac fanatic), but the expanded pdf  (13.5 mB) works just fine. I can put the pdfs in a public folder online tonight -- not sure what the copyright issues may be for something freely downloadable in a different format, so backchannel me for a link.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From robin.hamilton2  Tue Aug  9 08:30:51 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:30:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com><01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>
	<16609612.1123588478303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <034e01c59cde$2e715820$d3309b51@Robin>

> Some links are broken, but book is still there, here:
http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/download.html

Thanks, Mike.

I think possibly more important is that I really can't understand how anyone
on this list doesn't possess a copy of +The New Princeton Encyclopaedia of
Poetry and Poetics+.

Nor, come to that, the Library of America volumes of Pound and Stevens.

Forget McDonalds, here we'd sell our eye teeth for anything comparable on
say Browning and Wordsworth.

Any chance?

Robin.










From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 08:43:16 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:43:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Strand's 100
References: <BF1DA7D1.13556%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002601c59cdf$ea7ce1a0$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> (Sidebar:  given the editor, the book is an utterly "mainstream" 
> production,
> it's probably needless to say--so perhaps it's needless to sigh or scream
> about that fact?  Ah, I can hope. . . .)

Futile hope, David--like mine that people like you might agree that it would 
be nice if some bigName published an anthology that included a few poems 
using devices not in widespread use by the 1950s or earlier.

--Bob G.



> Strand's introduction makes it clear that this is a highly personal
> selection ("I have not chosen *the* hundred great poems, but *a* hundred
> great poems")--he might well have titled it *My Top 100*--but even so, 
> there
> are some quirky choices and surprises.  He makes the interesting decision 
> to
> omit poets his own age or younger, and limits the Americans to half the
> table of contents.  Perhaps he was afraid of offending too many of his
> friends.  In any case, the selection is dominated by the dead.

> Strand has made an effort to mix chestnuts ("Prufrock") with less obvious
> choices (I've not sure I've ever seen Robert Hayden's "Witch Doctor"
> anthologized, for instance, nor Berryman's "The Moon and the Night and the
> Men"); and when was the last time you saw such a book represent Williams
> with "These" instead of the damn red wheelbarrow?).  Strand also includes
> more than the usual run of longer poems (Akhmatova's "Northern Elegies,"
> e.g.)
>
> Strand's taste is about what you'd expect if you've read his own poems and
> translations--quite a lot of Latin American and European poets here along
> with the Americans, for instance--but I imagine that just about everyone
> reading the book will find some poet or poems that are unfamiliar.  Even,
> perhaps, with poets you do know.
>
> Here's one sample.  I'll leave the well-known author's name off--wonder 
> how
> many can immediately name the writer of this one, which has not exactly 
> been
> over-anthologized?
>
>
>
> EVENING IN THE SANITARIUM
>
> The free evening fades, outside the windows fastened with decorative iron
> grilles.
> The lamps are lighted; the shades drawn; the nurses are watching a little.
> It is the hour of the complicated knitting on the safe bone needles; of 
> the
> games of anagrams and bridge;
> The deadly game of chess; the book held up like a mask.
>
> The period of the wildest weeping, the fiercest delusion, is over.
> The women rest their tired half-healed hearts; they are almost well.
> Some of them will stay almost well always: the blunt-faced woman whose
> thinking dissolved
> Under academic discipline; the manic-depressive girl
> Now leveling off; one paranoiac afflicted with jealousy.
> Another with persecution. Some alleviation has been possible.
>
> O fortunate bride, who never again will become elated after childbirth!
> O lucky older wife, who has been cured of feeling unwanted!
> To the suburban railway station you will return, return,
> To meet forever Jim home on the 5:35.
> You will be again as normal and selfish and heartless as anybody else.
>
> There is life left: the piano says it with its octave smile.
> The soft carpets pad the thump and splinter of the suicide to be.
> Everything will be splendid: the grandmother will not drink habitually.
> The fruit salad will bloom on the plate like a bouquet
> And the garden produce the blue-ribbon aquilegia.
>
> The cats will be glad; the fathers feel justified; the mothers relieved.
> The sons and husbands will no longer need to pay the bills.
> Childhoods will be put away, the obscene nightmare abated.
>
> At the ends of the corridors the baths are running.
> Mrs. C. again feels the shadow of the obsessive idea.
> Miss R. looks at the mantel-piece, which must mean something.
>
> ===========
>
> In case you're interested, blurbs and further info at the Amazon page:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393058948/qid=1123550968/sr=1
> -1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4766159-5387112?v=glance&s=books
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 08:46:01 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:46:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Link to My Essay on Taxonomy
References: <20f.6a58390.3029eb09@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003501c59ce0$4c7b3f00$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In case anyone's interested, an easier-to-read version of the essay I posted yesterday, with a proper image of the mathemaku discussed, is at

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00555.html

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 08:48:02 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:48:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>
	<01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <004401c59ce0$94a64860$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to
>> backchannel to anyone. 384KB
>
>            This is mildly silly.
>
> Like Michael, I've the Versification files arked to my hard disk, but 
> until
> when, I'd assumed they were still live in cyberspace -- so what the *hell*
> is going on?
>
> Up till now, I'd assumed I was simply dumb-bunny from Glasgow -- but is
> something funny going on?
>
>            Surely *someone* knows ...
>
> Look, this really *ain't* my territory, praise de lor', but surely
> +somebunny+ knows?
>
>            :-(
>
> Robin

Hey, the guy stoled my backward rhyme.  Hadda do something to get back.

Bobbunny 





From Rsgwynn1  Tue Aug  9 08:50:08 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:50:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
Message-ID: <19f.39673ca8.302a0080@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/9/2005 12:15:48 AM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> The crunch of the work that Tim Brogan was doing is in the 1993 NPEPP, and 
> that you can get paperback from amazon for maybe $30, less I imagine if you 
> fancy it through a book-club.
>   
>  Does this make the least blind bit of sense?
>   
>  Do I care?
>   
>              <g>
>   
>  Robin
> 
Gotcha.  I think I'll just stick with the New Princeton.  It's "Terry" 
Brogan, by the way.
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From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 08:54:31 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:54:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lomng Slow Wednesdays
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009a01c59c3b$27e28f90$d3309b51@Robin><009501c59c47$35b850d0$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><011b01c59c58$77883f00$d3309b51@Robin><00e901c59c65$4b3ebd40$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><019a01c59c6b$d48d7040$d3309b51@Robin><011a01c59c6e$53696980$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<023101c59c8e$796aab10$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <004901c59ce1$7ca219a0$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> See, Bob ...
>
>> I took a shift
>> as cabin boy
>> upon the ship
>> called "Honey-Bee."
>>
>> I ended at
>> the cursed helm
>> and like an ass
>> sailed straight to Hell.
>>
>> (help)
>>
>> I dunno, Robin.  It sure felt to me like the above was as easy for me as 
>> c
> V
>> C doggerel.
>
> I was on a course with a hooker
>        of ship called Malaria Jane -- 
> When I took a chance at the helm,
>        and the ship said back to me:
>
> "You may be sharp as buggery,
>    You may be fast as shit,
> But on this desperate mountainside -- 
>      This is no place to be."
>
> Cold and fast and harvest,
>    I only just survived --
> Even now I'm surprised:
>    Dead one, dead two ...
>
>                            I survived ...
>
> Count the cost up for the harvest,
>    Count them right up to to the wrist,
> Basically, dead man walking:
>
> ... makes you wonder, but?
>
>        Just a thought.
>
> Robin

Innerestink text, Robin, but I have to admit I couldn't see the connection 
to my effort (in the context of the c and v discussion).  Meanwhile, I've 
decided c V C most likely IS naturally easier to write than C V c and C v C 
because English words have more similar endings than beginnings.  Probably 
all words do.  But the other rhymes shouldn't be so much harder as to stop 
poets from using them.  I think they may start using them.  I think rhyming 
got too predictible, so poets went to freeverse and elsewhere without 
stopping to try to expand rhyme.  They'll come back to rhyme, though, and 
maybe then accept an expansion of it.  Certainly rim-rhyme is auditorily 
effective.

--Bob






From robin.hamilton2  Tue Aug  9 09:00:12 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:00:12 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <19f.39673ca8.302a0080@cs.com>
Message-ID: <039301c59ce2$48849e80$d3309b51@Robin>

It's "Terry" Brogan, by the way. 

Learn something new everyday.

            <g>

Robin
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From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 09:08:03 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:08:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <19f.39673ca8.302a0080@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c59ce3$60cca220$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The crunch of the work that Tim Brogan was doing is in the 1993 NPEPP, and that you can get paperback from amazon for maybe $30, less I imagine if you fancy it through a book-club.
  
Does this make the least blind bit of sense?
  
Do I care?
  
             <g>
  
Robin

Gotcha.  I think I'll just stick with the New Princeton.  It's "Terry" Brogan, by the way. 

I'm suddenly confused.  Is there a later version of the Princeton than the 1993 edition (which I've had for a while but have been thinking of as just a few years old)?

--Bob G.
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From jeff.newberry  Tue Aug  9 09:16:39 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:16:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, Philip Larkin
Message-ID: <731bb17a0508090616595bab07@mail.gmail.com>

*The Writer's Almanac* informs me that today is Philip Larkin's birthday.
 My favorite Larkin poem:
 Church Going
 Once I am sure there's nothing going on
I step inside, letting the door thud shut.
Another church: matting, seats, and stone,
And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut
For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff
Up at the holy end; the small neat organ;
And a tense, musty, unignorable silence,
Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off
My cycle-clips in awkward reverence,
Move forward, run my hand around the font.
>From where I stand, the roof looks almost new-
Cleaned or restored? Someone would know: I don't.
Mounting the lectern, I peruse a few
Hectoring large-scale verses, and pronounce
"Here endeth" much more loudly than I'd meant.
The echoes snigger briefly. Back at the door
I sign the book, donate an Irish sixpence,
Reflect the place was not worth stopping for.

Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,
And always end much at a loss like this,
Wondering what to look for; wondering, too,
When churches fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into, if we shall keep
A few cathedrals chronically on show,
Their parchment, plate, and pyx in locked cases,
And let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep.
Shall we avoid them as unlucky places?

Or, after dark, will dubious women come
To make their children touch a particular stone;
Pick simples for a cancer; or on some
Advised night see walking a dead one?
Power of some sort or other will go on
In games, in riddles, seemingly at random;
But superstition, like belief, must die,
And what remains when disbelief has gone?
Grass, weedy pavement, brambles, buttress, sky,

A shape less recognizable each week,
A purpose more obscure. I wonder who
Will be the last, the very last, to seek
This place for what it was; one of the crew
That tap and jot and know what rood-lofts were?
Some ruin-bibber, randy for antique,
Or Christmas-addict, counting on a whiff
Of gown-and-bands and organ-pipes and myrrh?
Or will he be my representative,

Bored, uninformed, knowing the ghostly silt
Dispersed, yet tending to this cross of ground
Through suburb scrub because it held unspilt
So long and equably what since is found
Only in separation -- marriage, and birth,
And death, and thoughts of these -- for whom was built
This special shell? For, though I've no idea
What this accoutred frowsty barn is worth,
It pleases me to stand in silence here;

A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From Rsgwynn1  Tue Aug  9 09:30:04 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:30:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, Philip Larkin
Message-ID: <1b8.18cf2bb2.302a09dc@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/9/2005 8:16:56 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: 
> 
> The Writer's Almanac informs me that today is Philip Larkin's birthday.
> 
Bah! Humbug!
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From uche  Tue Aug  9 09:48:03 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 07:48:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
In-Reply-To: <002901c59aba$d13a7170$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <200508061600.j76G05HB016507@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<005401c59aac$6bd91b50$eed35dc6@Arlyn>
	<d47e25c0676d5a283f8b0851c16acd4e@earthlink.net>
	<002901c59aba$d13a7170$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1123595283.31001.153.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-08-06 at 15:12 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> I'm sending you this diatribe
> To tell you that I unsubscribe.
> Don't keep those cards and letters comin',
> No Marcus Bales and no Bob Grumman,
> And though to some it seems a sin,
> I want no more of R.S.Gwynn,
> No David Graham, no Paul Lake.
> It's been a terrible mistake.
> And would I seem too much a meanie
> To want no Anny Ballardini?
> That's how it is. I'll leave 'em sobbin',
> No Donna, Halvard, Jeff or Robin.
> So ciao, farewell, auf Weidersehen--
> Sincerely, Arlyn Edelstein.

I doff my hat, Tad.  That's great for an early morning smile.

-- 
Uche





From uche  Tue Aug  9 09:55:44 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 07:55:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
In-Reply-To: <005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta>
	<005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1123595745.31001.158.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-08-08 at 11:36 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains

> > On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 04:20 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
> >> For the past few years I've been writing metrical lines that rhyme
> >> irregularly.  Don't know why, exactly, but I'm so busy pursuing the sense 
> >> of
> >> what I'm saying that I let myself rhyme where it feels right instead of
> >> where a pattern demands.  Don't know what the ultimate judgment of such a
> >> practice will be, but it's been fun using rhyme without the obligation to
> >> always make it fit an exact pattern.
> >
> > I think it's very useful to treat rhyme as a form of additional
> > emphasis, rather than the sine qua non of a particular form.  For my
> > part, I've been doing more of an equivalence between para-rhyme (i.e.
> > Owen's "Strange Meeting") and "pure" rhyme as a way to expand the
> > repertoire of English word rhymes.  But this still doesn't offer the
> > abundance (and thus natural feel) of rhyme in, say French or Italian, so
> > I've also been tending in the direction you mention.
> 
> You might try what I call backward rhymes, too (which I  apparently invented 
> some forty years ago): e.g., back/bad/bat, cork/court.  Interestingly, 
> stasguards can't accept these as rhymes--tradition, for them, comes before 
> logic.  They are full rhymes--as are those of Owen which I call rim rhymes, 
> e.g., rim/rhyme, bad/bud/bid.

I suppose perhaps I'm not a stasguard, then, because I see nothing wrong
with them at first glance.  I tried a few silly lines with them, and
they seem to work much better in the masculine than feminine, but I'll
certainly tuck them in my skull to try out more seriously soon.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Tue Aug  9 09:58:08 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 07:58:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
In-Reply-To: <006301c59c34$775c0940$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta>
	<005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006301c59c34$775c0940$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <1123595888.31001.161.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-08-08 at 12:15 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
> Bob...and the reason why you don't call these "alliteration" and 
> "assonance"?

I think it's more specific than that.  After all, "regular" rhyme is
also just alliteration + assonance in a certain pattern.  So are these
"back" rhymes.  I think it's frequency and prominence within a form that
makes such things eligible for more specific treatment.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From marcus  Tue Aug  9 10:20:23 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:20:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
In-Reply-To: <034e01c59cde$2e715820$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <42F88367.17429.ADC2E9@localhost>

"Progress in the field has been  repeatedly diverted and obfuscated by 
vehemently defended by eccentric theories for over three centuries, and 
the result, to address the plain fact of the matter, has been that neither 
the structure nor the elements of versification is understood very well 
even today. We do not need any more talk of shorts and longs, 
acephalous, acatalectic, or arsis, nor elaborate schemas categorizing 
the types of off-rhyme, nor really any more student's manuals which 
reduce subtle and highly complex systems of verbal dynamics to the 
baldest imaginable terms and definitions. For though it is true that 
metrical structure (the principal component of verseform) is in essence 
an extremely simple pattern of extremely simple elements -- indeed, 
elements which have been known and recognized widely for centuries -- 
it is a system which rests upon linguistic material that continues to 
astound us by its intricacy, even for what little of it we understand."

Note to Grumman: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, consider it 
possible that you are mistaken."

M


On 9 Aug 2005 at 13:30, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> > Some links are broken, but book is still there, here:
> http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/download.html
> 
> Thanks, Mike.
> 
> I think possibly more important is that I really can't understand how anyone
> on this list doesn't possess a copy of +The New Princeton Encyclopaedia of
> Poetry and Poetics+.
> 
> Nor, come to that, the Library of America volumes of Pound and Stevens.
> 
> Forget McDonalds, here we'd sell our eye teeth for anything comparable on
> say Browning and Wordsworth.
> 
> Any chance?
> 
> Robin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From marcus  Mon Aug  8 21:54:05 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:54:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
In-Reply-To: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <42F7D47D.8528.105F87@localhost>

I'd love to have it again; my old laptop was stolen.
Marcus


On 8 Aug 2005 at 21:23, Michael Snider wrote:

> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to  
> backchannel to anyone. 384KB
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From uche  Tue Aug  9 10:34:47 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:34:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
In-Reply-To: <16609612.1123588478303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>
	<01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>
	<16609612.1123588478303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1123598088.31001.169.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 07:54 -0400, Mike Snider wrote:
>  On Monday, August 08, 2005, at 10:10PM, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
> 
> >> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to
> >> backchannel to anyone. 384KB
> >
> >            This is mildly silly.
> >
> >Like Michael, I've the Versification files arked to my hard disk, but until
> >when, I'd assumed they were still live in cyberspace -- so what the *hell*
> >is going on?
> >
> >Up till now, I'd assumed I was simply dumb-bunny from Glasgow -- but is
> >something funny going on?
> >
> >            Surely *someone* knows ...
> >
> >Look, this really *ain't* my territory, praise de lor', but surely
> >+somebunny+ knows?
> >
> >            :-(
> >
> >Robin
> >
> >
> 
> Some links are broken, but book is still there, here: http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/download.html
> 
> The get-it-all-in-one-chunk link on that page is to a self-extracting zip (5.2 mB) which only works on Windows machines.

Nah.  I use Linux, and I just used "unzip".  Worked perfectly.

> I use Macs at home (being a Windows developer has made me a Mac fanatic),

On OS X, you can use unzip from the command line.  I bet it works a
treat.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Tue Aug  9 10:36:54 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:36:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
In-Reply-To: <034e01c59cde$2e715820$d3309b51@Robin>
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>
	<01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>
	<16609612.1123588478303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<034e01c59cde$2e715820$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <1123598214.31001.171.camel@malatesta>

On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 13:30 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > Some links are broken, but book is still there, here:
> http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/download.html
> 
> Thanks, Mike.
> 
> I think possibly more important is that I really can't understand how anyone
> on this list doesn't possess a copy of +The New Princeton Encyclopaedia of
> Poetry and Poetics+.

Well, of course I have that, but the conversation so far left me under
the impression that this other work, although partly incorporated into
the New Princeton, has separate value on its own?

Can anyone clarify?


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From grahamd  Tue Aug  9 11:10:22 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:10:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, Philip Larkin
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0508090616595bab07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BF1E318E.13584%grahamd@ripon.edu>

One of my favorite poems, too.

But I wondered, seeing the subject line, whether Larkin ever enjoyed a
*happy* birthday. . . .



The Old Fools 
                                      --Philip Larkin


What do they think has happened, the old fools,
To make them like this? Do they somehow suppose
It's more grown-up when your mouth hangs open and drools,
And you keep on pissing yourself, and can't remember
Who called this morning? Or that, if they only chose,
They could alter things back to when they danced all night,
Or went to their wedding, or sloped arms some September?
Or do they fancy there's really been no change,
And they've always behaved as if they were crippled or tight,
Or sat through days of thin continuous dreaming
Watching light move? If they don't (and they can't), it's strange:
Why aren't they screaming?

At death, you break up: the bits that were you
Start speeding away from each other for ever
With no one to see. It's only oblivion, true:
We had it before, but then it was going to end,
And was all the time merging with a unique endeavour
To bring to bloom the million-petaled flower
Of being here. Next time you can't pretend
There'll be anything else. And these are the first signs:
Not knowing how, not hearing who, the power
Of choosing gone. Their looks show that they're for it:
Ash hair, toad hands, prune face dried into lines -
How can they ignore it?

Perhaps being old is having lighted rooms
Inside your head, and people in them, acting.
People you know, yet can't quite name; each looms
Like a deep loss restored, from known doors turning,
Setting down a lamp, smiling from a stair, extracting
A known book from the shelves; or sometimes only
The rooms themselves, chairs and a fire burning,
The blown bush at the window, or the sun's
Faint friendliness on the wall some lonely
Rain-ceased midsummer evening. That is where they live:
Not here and now, but where all happened once.
This is why they give

An air of baffled absence, trying to be there
Yet being here. For the rooms grow farther, leaving
Incompetent cold, the constant wear and tear
Of taken breath, and them crouching below
Extinction's alp, the old fools, never perceiving
How near it is. This must be what keeps them quiet:
The peak that stays in view wherever we go
For them is rising ground. Can they never tell
What is dragging them back, and how it will end? Not at night?
Not when the strangers come? Never, throughout
The whole hideous, inverted childhood? Well,
We shall find out.


on 8/9/05 8:16 AM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote:

The Writer's Almanac informs me that today is Philip Larkin's birthday.

My favorite Larkin poem:

Church Going

Once I am sure there's nothing going on
I step inside, letting the door thud shut.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From tad  Tue Aug  9 11:12:15 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 11:12:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube
References: <200508061600.j76G05HB016507@wiz.cath.vt.edu><005401c59aac$6bd91b50$eed35dc6@Arlyn><d47e25c0676d5a283f8b0851c16acd4e@earthlink.net><002901c59aba$d13a7170$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<1123595283.31001.153.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <000c01c59cf4$bcf4a4b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Thanks.
Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Uche Ogbuji" <uche at ogbuji.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] unsubscriube


> On Sat, 2005-08-06 at 15:12 -0400, The Old Mole wrote:
>> I'm sending you this diatribe
>> To tell you that I unsubscribe.
>> Don't keep those cards and letters comin',
>> No Marcus Bales and no Bob Grumman,
>> And though to some it seems a sin,
>> I want no more of R.S.Gwynn,
>> No David Graham, no Paul Lake.
>> It's been a terrible mistake.
>> And would I seem too much a meanie
>> To want no Anny Ballardini?
>> That's how it is. I'll leave 'em sobbin',
>> No Donna, Halvard, Jeff or Robin.
>> So ciao, farewell, auf Weidersehen--
>> Sincerely, Arlyn Edelstein.
>
> I doff my hat, Tad.  That's great for an early morning smile.
>
> -- 
> Uche
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From Kent.Johnson  Tue Aug  9 11:12:36 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:12:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Semezdin Mehmedinovic on Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
Message-ID: <s2f881bf.050@mail.highland.edu>

I've been invited to share this, and of course I am happy and honored to!

The translation is by Ammiel Alcalay.

Kent
*

Below is an exchange between Ammiel Alcalay and Semezdin Mehmedinovic (Bosnian poet, author of Sarajevo Blues; 1998, City Lights; Nine Alexandrias, 2003, City Lights; and numerous other books in Bosnian) about Kent Johnson?s Lyric Poetry After Auschwitz; the text was translated from Bosnian into English by Ammiel.


Ammiel,                                    Mon. 08 August

I got the copy of Kent's book that you sent today. I read it immediately and was really struck by it: beautiful, humorous, very painful and intelligent. I haven't read anything this fresh in a long time: my hope would be that this poetry has some kind of serious effect or, barring that, that it at least bring back some primary faith in poetry. I'm happy that you're in some way present here; I had the feeling while I was reading the book that it was the direct result of your public work over the past ten years...

Sem
*

sem,

i'm going to ask you if I can quote you on this because there is a controversy raging on various poetry blogs now about kent's book and what you wrote here would be perfect...

*

Ammiel:

That would make me very happy * by all means quote me if you think that it is well enough articulated; I think that Kent's book needs to be talked about as much as possible precisely because it is unsettling; it's unsettling to the less talented and less courageous (and that, unfortunately, includes about 90% of the poets in America). I was reading somewhere, that one of the mindless assertions (but today typical) written on one of the blogs is that the war in Iraq (the one Kent's book is dealing with) is 'old news.' Well, that's a terrifying phrase, not just because the war is ongoing and even more horrendous measures are in preparation but because, let's say, Hiroshima then is old news and poetry shouldn't try to deal with it, as if poetry were some prime time TV show. What must be most unnerving for poets here is the freshness of Kent's book on all levels * on the formal and every other level, because it's alive, it's speaking of reality, while most American poets would still rather go on writing about anything and everything except themselves in the world they're in, and certainly not about things that are so unsettling; what's more, they've been writing about nothing so long, that they're not in any position to write about anything concrete; the freshness of Kent's book completely overshadows most of what's being written now and it doesn't at all surprise me that there would be negative reactions among "the poets." But this actually really saddens me. Because the book opens a dialog with serious problems that all of us on this planet are living with, while a reaction like that makes it seem as if all that is at stake here is cleansing relations between poets and their conscience. But now I'm telling you things you know a lot more about and better than I do. So, that's it, I just want to say that I'm not at all indifferent to what is going on, that the whole thing hits very close to home for me.
s.








From mandolin  Tue Aug  9 11:21:07 2005
From: mandolin (Mike Snider)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:21:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
In-Reply-To: <1123598088.31001.169.camel@malatesta>
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com>
	<01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin>
	<16609612.1123588478303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<1123598088.31001.169.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <4978726.1123600867601.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, August 09, 2005, at 10:38AM, Uche Ogbuji <uche at ogbuji.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 07:54 -0400, Mike Snider wrote:
>>  On Monday, August 08, 2005, at 10:10PM, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >> I have a zip archive of this in pdf format, which I'd be happey to
>> >> backchannel to anyone. 384KB
>> >
>> >            This is mildly silly.
>> >
>> >Like Michael, I've the Versification files arked to my hard disk, but until
>> >when, I'd assumed they were still live in cyberspace -- so what the *hell*
>> >is going on?
>> >
>> >Up till now, I'd assumed I was simply dumb-bunny from Glasgow -- but is
>> >something funny going on?
>> >
>> >            Surely *someone* knows ...
>> >
>> >Look, this really *ain't* my territory, praise de lor', but surely
>> >+somebunny+ knows?
>> >
>> >            :-(
>> >
>> >Robin
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> Some links are broken, but book is still there, here: http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/download.html
>> 
>> The get-it-all-in-one-chunk link on that page is to a self-extracting zip (5.2 mB) which only works on Windows machines.
>
>Nah.  I use Linux, and I just used "unzip".  Worked perfectly.
>
>> I use Macs at home (being a Windows developer has made me a Mac fanatic),
>
>On OS X, you can use unzip from the command line.  I bet it works a
>treat.
>
>-- 

Thanks, Uche.

But I should have remembered the -d option. The .exe is set to expand to the root of C: by default, which translated to the root of my home directory. Cleanup time.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From marcus  Tue Aug  9 11:25:01 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:25:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Semezdin Mehmedinovic on Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz
In-Reply-To: <s2f881bf.050@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42F8928D.1674.E8F0A1@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2005 at 10:12, Kent Johnson wrote:
> ... Kent's book needs to be talked about as much as possible precisely 
because it is unsettling; it's unsettling to the less talented and less 
courageous (and that, unfortunately, includes about 90% of the poets in 
America).<

And of his great modesty, once again, he says nothing!

Marcus







From Kent.Johnson  Tue Aug  9 11:51:05 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:51:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus...
Message-ID: <s2f88aa6.044@mail.highland.edu>

It's been a tradition in literature for some years now that writers
openly share comments that other writers make about their work. Back
covers, for example, are seldom modest.

In any case, this involves something more, since it is a commentary by
an internationally renowned writer on a current controversy in American
poetry circles regarding a particular book. 

So this comment now enters the discussion. That's all. Have a nice
day.

Kent



From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 12:18:55 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:18:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <42F88367.17429.ADC2E9@localhost>
Message-ID: <00e401c59cfe$0a9a2e70$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Mistaken about what, Marcus?  Something specific or only that I don't go 
along with the mystification of poetics by just too-ethereally-sensitive 
ignoramuses and propagandists of unreason.  Of course, I understand that 
metrics is not just shorts and longs; I also understand that a verospath can 
show anything whatsoever to be too complex for final definition.  So what?

--Bob G.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification


> "Progress in the field has been  repeatedly diverted and obfuscated by
> vehemently defended by eccentric theories for over three centuries, and
> the result, to address the plain fact of the matter, has been that neither
> the structure nor the elements of versification is understood very well
> even today. We do not need any more talk of shorts and longs,
> acephalous, acatalectic, or arsis, nor elaborate schemas categorizing
> the types of off-rhyme, nor really any more student's manuals which
> reduce subtle and highly complex systems of verbal dynamics to the
> baldest imaginable terms and definitions. For though it is true that
> metrical structure (the principal component of verseform) is in essence
> an extremely simple pattern of extremely simple elements -- indeed,
> elements which have been known and recognized widely for centuries -- 
> it is a system which rests upon linguistic material that continues to
> astound us by its intricacy, even for what little of it we understand."
>
> Note to Grumman: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, consider it
> possible that you are mistaken."
>
> M
>
>
> On 9 Aug 2005 at 13:30, Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
>> > Some links are broken, but book is still there, here:
>> http://depts.washington.edu/versif/resources/evrg/download.html
>>
>> Thanks, Mike.
>>
>> I think possibly more important is that I really can't understand how 
>> anyone
>> on this list doesn't possess a copy of +The New Princeton Encyclopaedia 
>> of
>> Poetry and Poetics+.
>>
>> Nor, come to that, the Library of America volumes of Pound and Stevens.
>>
>> Forget McDonalds, here we'd sell our eye teeth for anything comparable on
>> say Browning and Wordsworth.
>>
>> Any chance?
>>
>> Robin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 12:32:14 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:32:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slacker rhyme and partial refrains
References: <BF14A52A.9AF7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu><1123199160.31001.115.camel@malatesta><005601c59c2f$c112d500$52b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1123595745.31001.158.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <010001c59cff$e6e184e0$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>> You might try what I call backward rhymes, too (which I  apparently 
>> invented
>> some forty years ago): e.g., back/bad/bat, cork/court.  Interestingly,
>> stasguards can't accept these as rhymes--tradition, for them, comes 
>> before
>> logic.  They are full rhymes--as are those of Owen which I call rim 
>> rhymes,
>> e.g., rim/rhyme, bad/bud/bid.
>
> I suppose perhaps I'm not a stasguard, then, because I see nothing wrong
> with them at first glance.  I tried a few silly lines with them, and
> they seem to work much better in the masculine than feminine, but I'll
> certainly tuck them in my skull to try out more seriously soon.

Yikes, two agreements about poetic devices on New-Poetry.  What's this world 
coming to?  As for you're being a stasguard or not, though, that remains to 
be seen.  To not be one, you have to agree with me on EVERYTHING.  But 
thanks for going along with me this time.

--Mr. G. 





From robin.hamilton2  Tue Aug  9 13:10:42 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:10:42 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <3FA2F68F-B9F8-4169-BBB5-5AF8904F356B@mac.com><01e801c59c87$5ba7f8a0$d3309b51@Robin><16609612.1123588478303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><034e01c59cde$2e715820$d3309b51@Robin>
	<1123598214.31001.171.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <040201c59d05$46a171b0$d3309b51@Robin>

> > I think possibly more important is that I really can't understand how
anyone
> > on this list doesn't possess a copy of +The New Princeton Encyclopaedia
of
> > Poetry and Poetics+.
>
> Well, of course I have that, but the conversation so far left me under
> the impression that this other work, although partly incorporated into
> the New Princeton, has separate value on its own?
>
> Can anyone clarify?

Brogan's 1980s +English Versification+ was about as stunningly comprehensive
a bibliography of primary and secondary material as it was possible to
get -- essential in that area.

But a bibliography nonetheless, and mibee of specialist interest

I *think* TVFB's revisions of the articles on versification/metrics in the
1993 NPEPP (revised from the 1974) drew on this.

But really, horses of a different colour.

I'll be (more than) happy to stand corrected on this.

                Robin

[The on-line issue of EV is a different matter -- I didn't have problems
unzipping the files, but simply I couldn't, when I did my earlier post, seem
to google back to it.

I think Michael, in an other post, solved this problem -- it's still FOE,
simply difficult to find.

Blame my muzzy head for this.

R.]





From marcus  Tue Aug  9 13:55:32 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:55:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
In-Reply-To: <00e401c59cfe$0a9a2e70$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <42F8B5D4.2734.172BC82@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2005 at 12:18, Bob Grumman wrote:
> ... a verospath ...<

As usual, name-calling is all you can do.

Marcus







From anny.ballardini  Tue Aug  9 14:30:00 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:30:00 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for submissions
Message-ID: <003601c59d10$5ac71040$49aa3852@ANNY>

As a  continuation of  Skald's exploration of borders and boundaries in 
poetry, identity, and nationhood, the next issue will feature work that 
explores relationships between the visual and the verbal. We would welcome 
any approach to this area, from poetry which emphasises the visual to
visual art which incorporates or suggests text.

There are physical limitations. Skald, edited by  Ian Davidson and Zoe 
Skoulding,  is an A5, 32 pp
publication in black and white. Photographs are possible but, while every 
care is taken, high quality reproduction cannot be guaranteed. Sample copies 
available at ?2 including postage, cheque to Skald, 6 Hill Street, Menai 
Bridge, Anglesey LL59 5AG.

Please send work to this address or by email to submissions at skald.org by 
September 10 2005.

Payment is in copies.



____________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 16:21:23 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:21:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification
References: <42F8B5D4.2734.172BC82@localhost>
Message-ID: <014901c59d1f$e9e54170$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brogan's English Versification


> On 9 Aug 2005 at 12:18, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> ... a verospath ...<
>
> As usual, name-calling is all you can do.
>
> Marcus

Actually, I asked you what I was mistaken about.  Why haven't you answered? 
It seemed a fair question.  I also explained pretty precisely what was silly 
about the passage you quoted--that a person not interested in truth-seeking 
can "show anything whatsoever to be too complex for final definition."  So 
it is an absolute fact that
all I did was NOT indulge in name-calling.  It is also an absolute fact that 
it is NOT usual for me to indulge in name-calling.

--Bob G. 





From bobgrumman  Tue Aug  9 21:13:55 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:13:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Contribution to the Johnson/Behrle Fracas
References: <42F7D47D.8528.105F87@localhost>
Message-ID: <01a401c59d48$c7711410$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Jim Behrle entrusted the following to me knowing I'd post it: anything to 
get into a quarrel, especially one that I can't figure out, except that 
Kent, as usual, didn't water his Cheerios.

--Bob G.


Pre-order Your Copy of LYRIC POETRY AFTER KENT JOHNSON: 11 SUBMISSIONS TO 
THE BLOG-WAR by Jim Behrle (September 2005, New Erections)

Here: http://lyricpoetryafterkentjohnson.blogspot.com/

And buy Kent Johnson's new effing chapbook now, here: 
http://www.effingpress.com/

Cover TK

" i really don't have the time to engage in this kind of bullshit - 
" --Ammiel Alcalay

"Kent Johnson's book is really, really good. And that Jim guy, he's 
completely filled with dogshit."--Some Bosnian dude





From JforJames  Tue Aug  9 23:15:45 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:15:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Contribution to the Johnson/Behrle Fracas
Message-ID: <104.66ce4312.302acb61@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/9/2005 9:14:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Jim Behrle entrusted the following to me knowing I'd post it: anything to 
> get into a quarrel, especially one that I can't figure out, except that 
> Kent, as usual, didn't water his Cheerios.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 

I side with Kent completely on this. If Behtle i s so jaded as
to think the Iraq war/conflict/fuckup is just old news, he's not
paying attention. He has a lovely little blog...lovely little cartoons,
he should carry on, carrion.
Finnegen
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From bobgrumman  Wed Aug 10 06:17:18 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:17:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Contribution to the Johnson/Behrle Fracas
References: <104.66ce4312.302acb61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c59d94$b0773450$24b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The "war" in Iraq has been old news for millennia.  Topical poems with politically correct opinions are a dime a dozen--though I think Kent's above average.  Kent's reaction to Behrle, though, is where he's most failing to water his Cheerios.

--Bob G.  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 11:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Contribution to the Johnson/Behrle Fracas


  In a message dated 8/9/2005 9:14:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    Jim Behrle entrusted the following to me knowing I'd post it: anything to 
    get into a quarrel, especially one that I can't figure out, except that 
    Kent, as usual, didn't water his Cheerios.

    --Bob G.




  I side with Kent completely on this. If Behtle i s so jaded as
  to think the Iraq war/conflict/fuckup is just old news, he's not
  paying attention. He has a lovely little blog...lovely little cartoons,
  he should carry on, carrion.
  Finnegen 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From poetry  Wed Aug 10 08:29:37 2005
From: poetry (wild honey press)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:29:37 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mairead Byrne and Lissa Wolsak: New from Wild Honey
	Press
Message-ID: <06b901c59da7$2f887b20$0601a8c0@hppavilion>

Apologies if you receive this more than once.

Wild Honey Press is delighted to announce the following new publications:
Vivas by Mair?ad Byrne and A Defence of Being by Lissa Wolsak

Vivas by Mair?ad Byrne.


14.5x16 cm, 20 pages, 250 gsm white Strata card cover, pale blue endpapers,
hand-sewn with azure twist.

Cover image, Memoirs of Milk Bottles, Gold Tops 2003, by Tina Lauren
Vietmeier.

Price euro 5 / USD 5 / STG 3.50

Explore the metaphysics of the eaten bagel as you enter the carnival world
of Mair?ad Byrne's latest chapbook. Pitch past pitch of passion,
over-stuffed sofas, Polar ice shelves, film stars, savings accounts,
glorious sights and dairy products are yours as your dreams, or someone
else's, come true in a journey sans safety belt across fourteen streaming
poems with rainbows inside.



A Defence of Being by Lissa Wolsak

14x21 cm, 48 pages, 250 gsm Green Strata card cover, black endpapers, hand
sewn with green twist.

Colour illustration by Allen Fisher.

ISBN 1 903090 42 3

Price: euro 7 / USD 7 / STG 4.50

As George Quasha comments:
If I were to argue at this late date of post-culture the view that "poets
are born, not made", Lissa Wolsak would be my preferred instance, along
with, say, Emily Dickinson or HD - poets through and through, for whom
poetry is not so much choice as life-sustaining access to its own
intelligible current. Such poets are often outsiders in the sense that their
work by its nature is without precedent. That her extraordinary ear for
actual speech nuance (however idiolectual) bespeaks the values of a living
poetics in the historical context of unconsciously suicidal public
discourse; its freshness and always surprising invention of her own
revelatory process has no near neighbors. And if she calls a new thinking
into play, it is so utterly without dogma and so sensitive to the free
movement of mind that its humanness and compassionate nature stand forward.
Therein lies her actual politics, alive in the action of what she calls
"co-mercy". A hard act to co-opt.


More information, including extracts from and images of the chapbooks, can
be found by clicking the links at www.wildhoneypress.com

Since literature is the best currency, swaps are welcome.

best

Randolph

Randolph Healy
www.wildhoneypress.com





From JforJames  Wed Aug 10 10:01:23 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:01:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Contribution to the Johnson/Behrle Fracas
Message-ID: <55.78f2a590.302b62b3@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/10/2005 6:17:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
The "war" in Iraq has been old news for millennia.  Topical poems with 
politically correct opinions are a dime a dozen--though I think Kent's above 
average.  Kent's reaction to Behrle, though, is where he's most failing to water his 
Cheerios.
Bob,
I believe poets should write poems of a political nature.
Anti-war poetry is one way to enter the debate, however
inconsequential the effect...

The Butterfly Effect
 
    In '72, Edward Lorenz gave a famous address, 
    "Does the Flap of a Butterfly's Wings in Brazil 
    set off a Tornado in Texas?" Sensitive dependence 
    on initial conditions: A principle of what came 
    to be known as chaos theory...
 
            But let's say it's only a figurative tornado
that rips through an area northwest of Crawford, Texas,
tear-asses across the 1600 acres of our President's ranch, 
the 'Western White House', far from the real one 
at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and maybe 
that butterfly isn't even an exotic from faraway
in the Amazon rainforests, ravaged as they are 
at a rate of 10,000 square miles per year, disappearing 
in Belgium-sized bites, maybe the butterfly is just a sulfur 
or cabbage white, common to unmown fields 
and suburban backyards.
 
            Perhaps it all starts in the back of a bookstore,
before twenty or so people sitting on folding chairs,
because the flap of that butterfly's wings 
is nothing more than the pages of a poem, 
turned in a young woman's hands at an open mike,
as she speaks her mind, asks to be heard.

==
What was strange business about Behrle contacting
the president of the college where Kent works? I mean,
unless there was real defamatory information being
sent around to various lists, there is no call for that kind 
of thing....none whatsover. What kind of crybaby blogger
does that?

Blogs and lists are cyber-contected, half the people on
this list may have their own blogs for all I know, so reporting 
to lists on postings & goings-on on various blogs, both pro 
& con, should be fair game.
Finnegan
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From grahamd  Wed Aug 10 14:04:04 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:04:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Half salt & half alcohol
Message-ID: <BF1FABC4.1366B%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Another sample from Mark Strand's anthology *100 Great Poems of the 20th
Century*, a translation by the editor:





Residue

>From everything a little remained.
>From my fear. From your disgust.
>From stifled cries. From the rose
a little remained.

A little remained of light
caught inside the hat.
In the eyes of the pimp
a little remained of tenderness,
very little.

A little remained of the dust
that covered your white shoes.
Of your clothes a little remained,
a few velvet rags, very
very few.

>From everything a little remained.
>From the bombed-out bridge,
from the two blades of grass,
from the empty pack
of cigarettes a little remained.

So from everything a little remains.
A little remains of your chin
in the chin of your daughter.

A little remained of your
blunt silence, a little
in the angry wall,
in the mute rising leaves.

A little remained from everything
in porcelain saucers,
in the broken dragon, in the white flowers,
in the creases of your brow,
in the portrait.

Since from everything a little remains,
why won't a little
of me remain? In the train
travelling north, in the ship,
in newspaper ads,
why not a little of me in London,
a little of me somewhere?
In a consonant?
In a well?

A little remains dangling
in the mouths of rivers,
just a little, and the fish
don't avoid it, which is very unusual.

>From everything a little remains.
Not much: this absurd drop
dripping from the faucet,
half salt and half alcohol,
this frog leg jumping,
this watch crystal
broken into a thousand wishes,
this swan's neck,
this childhood secret...
>From everything a little remained:
from me; from you; from Abelard.
Hair on my sleeve,
from everything a little remained;
wind in my ears,
burbing, rumbling
from an upset stomach,
and small artifacts:
bell jar, honeycomb, revolver
cartridge, aspirin tablet.

>From everything a little remained.

And from everything a little remains.
Oh, open the bottles of lotion
and smoother
the cruel, unbearable odor of memory.

Still, horribly, from everything a little remains,
under the rhythmic waves
under the clouds and the wind
under the bridges and under the tunnels
under the flames and under the sarcasm
under the phlegm and under the vomit
under the cry from the dungeon, the guy they forgot
under the spectacle and under the scarlet death
under the libraries, asylums, victorious churches
under yourself and under your feet already hard
under the ties of family, the ties of class,
from everything a little always remains.
Sometimes a button. Sometimes a rat.


--Carlos Drummond de Andrade.  trans. from the Portuguese by Mark Strand


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From tad  Wed Aug 10 14:15:47 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:15:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Half salt & half alcohol
References: <BF1FABC4.1366B%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007f01c59dd7$8b4a9ee0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I like this a lot.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Half salt & half alcohol


> Another sample from Mark Strand's anthology *100 Great Poems of the 20th
> Century*, a translation by the editor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Residue
> 
>>From everything a little remained.
>>From my fear. From your disgust.
>>From stifled cries. From the rose
> a little remained.
> 
> A little remained of light
> caught inside the hat.
> In the eyes of the pimp
> a little remained of tenderness,
> very little.
> 
> A little remained of the dust
> that covered your white shoes.
> Of your clothes a little remained,
> a few velvet rags, very
> very few.
> 
>>From everything a little remained.
>>From the bombed-out bridge,
> from the two blades of grass,
> from the empty pack
> of cigarettes a little remained.
> 
> So from everything a little remains.
> A little remains of your chin
> in the chin of your daughter.
> 
> A little remained of your
> blunt silence, a little
> in the angry wall,
> in the mute rising leaves.
> 
> A little remained from everything
> in porcelain saucers,
> in the broken dragon, in the white flowers,
> in the creases of your brow,
> in the portrait.
> 
> Since from everything a little remains,
> why won't a little
> of me remain? In the train
> travelling north, in the ship,
> in newspaper ads,
> why not a little of me in London,
> a little of me somewhere?
> In a consonant?
> In a well?
> 
> A little remains dangling
> in the mouths of rivers,
> just a little, and the fish
> don't avoid it, which is very unusual.
> 
>>From everything a little remains.
> Not much: this absurd drop
> dripping from the faucet,
> half salt and half alcohol,
> this frog leg jumping,
> this watch crystal
> broken into a thousand wishes,
> this swan's neck,
> this childhood secret...
>>From everything a little remained:
> from me; from you; from Abelard.
> Hair on my sleeve,
> from everything a little remained;
> wind in my ears,
> burbing, rumbling
> from an upset stomach,
> and small artifacts:
> bell jar, honeycomb, revolver
> cartridge, aspirin tablet.
> 
>>From everything a little remained.
> 
> And from everything a little remains.
> Oh, open the bottles of lotion
> and smoother
> the cruel, unbearable odor of memory.
> 
> Still, horribly, from everything a little remains,
> under the rhythmic waves
> under the clouds and the wind
> under the bridges and under the tunnels
> under the flames and under the sarcasm
> under the phlegm and under the vomit
> under the cry from the dungeon, the guy they forgot
> under the spectacle and under the scarlet death
> under the libraries, asylums, victorious churches
> under yourself and under your feet already hard
> under the ties of family, the ties of class,
> from everything a little always remains.
> Sometimes a button. Sometimes a rat.
> 
> 
> --Carlos Drummond de Andrade.  trans. from the Portuguese by Mark Strand
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>




From grahamd  Wed Aug 10 14:35:53 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:35:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Andrade
In-Reply-To: <007f01c59dd7$8b4a9ee0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BF1FB339.13673%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 8/10/05 1:15 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

> I like this a lot

 
> Tad Richards


Yeah, me too.  And I'm liking Strand's selections more and more the more I
peruse his book.

A favorite book on my shelf is Carlos Drummond de Andrade's *Travelling in
the Family:  Selected Poems*, edited by Strand with Thomas Colchie, with
many translations by Strand, and a few by Eliz. Bishop.

Here's one from that book:


Souvenir of the Ancient World
                   

Clara strolled in the garden with the children.
The sky was green over the grass,
the water was golden under the bridges,
other elements were blue and rose and orange,
a policeman smiled, bicycles passed,
a girl stepped onto the lawn to catch a bird,
the whole world?Germany, China?
    All was quiet around Clara.

 The children looked at the sky: it was not forbidden.
 Mouth, nose, eyes were open. There was no danger.
 What Clara feared were the flu, the heat, the insects.
 Clara feared missing the eleven o'clock trolley,
 waiting for letters slow to arrive,
 not always being able to wear a new dress. But
 she strolled in the garden, in the morning!

They had gardens, they had mornings in those days!

-- by Carlos Drummond de Andrade, translated by Mark Strand








> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:04 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Half salt & half alcohol
> 
> 
>> Another sample from Mark Strand's anthology *100 Great Poems of the 20th
>> Century*, a translation by the editor:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Residue
>> 
>>> From everything a little remained.
>>> From my fear. From your disgust.
>>> From stifled cries. From the rose
>> a little remained.
>> 
>> A little remained of light
>> caught inside the hat.
>> In the eyes of the pimp
>> a little remained of tenderness,
>> very little.
>> 
>> A little remained of the dust
>> that covered your white shoes.
>> Of your clothes a little remained,
>> a few velvet rags, very
>> very few.
>> 
>>> From everything a little remained.
>>> From the bombed-out bridge,
>> from the two blades of grass,
>> from the empty pack
>> of cigarettes a little remained.
>> 
>> So from everything a little remains.
>> A little remains of your chin
>> in the chin of your daughter.
>> 
>> A little remained of your
>> blunt silence, a little
>> in the angry wall,
>> in the mute rising leaves.
>> 
>> A little remained from everything
>> in porcelain saucers,
>> in the broken dragon, in the white flowers,
>> in the creases of your brow,
>> in the portrait.
>> 
>> Since from everything a little remains,
>> why won't a little
>> of me remain? In the train
>> travelling north, in the ship,
>> in newspaper ads,
>> why not a little of me in London,
>> a little of me somewhere?
>> In a consonant?
>> In a well?
>> 
>> A little remains dangling
>> in the mouths of rivers,
>> just a little, and the fish
>> don't avoid it, which is very unusual.
>> 
>>> From everything a little remains.
>> Not much: this absurd drop
>> dripping from the faucet,
>> half salt and half alcohol,
>> this frog leg jumping,
>> this watch crystal
>> broken into a thousand wishes,
>> this swan's neck,
>> this childhood secret...
>>> From everything a little remained:
>> from me; from you; from Abelard.
>> Hair on my sleeve,
>> from everything a little remained;
>> wind in my ears,
>> burbing, rumbling
>> from an upset stomach,
>> and small artifacts:
>> bell jar, honeycomb, revolver
>> cartridge, aspirin tablet.
>> 
>>> From everything a little remained.
>> 
>> And from everything a little remains.
>> Oh, open the bottles of lotion
>> and smoother
>> the cruel, unbearable odor of memory.
>> 
>> Still, horribly, from everything a little remains,
>> under the rhythmic waves
>> under the clouds and the wind
>> under the bridges and under the tunnels
>> under the flames and under the sarcasm
>> under the phlegm and under the vomit
>> under the cry from the dungeon, the guy they forgot
>> under the spectacle and under the scarlet death
>> under the libraries, asylums, victorious churches
>> under yourself and under your feet already hard
>> under the ties of family, the ties of class,
>> from everything a little always remains.
>> Sometimes a button. Sometimes a rat.
>> 
>> 
>> --Carlos Drummond de Andrade.  trans. from the Portuguese by Mark Strand
>> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






From Kent.Johnson  Wed Aug 10 17:48:22 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:48:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] on the poetry after-wars
Message-ID: <s2fa2ff3.045@mail.highland.edu>

I've pretty much refrained from publicly reacting to the rather
astonishing self-immolation of Jim Berhle over the past few days. The
pyre flames keep getting higher and higher, and it's been quite
something to watch. Certain faces that weren't entirely visible before
now glow as if they were lit up by a hundred suns. I've been giving the
microwave quite a workout with the Jiffy popcorn. The mint juleps have
been good accompaniment, too. 

I'm content to let my response to his review stand as my statement on
the book for the time being. Others will be commenting as time goes on,
I believe. And if this early reaction is any indication (a reaction that
is particularly marked, and in fascinating ways, amongst a certain
circle of poets), the commentary will be going on for some time. I had
hoped, as any author hopes, that that would be the case. More grandly,
perhaps, I'd hoped the book would play a small role in provoking more
debate about the politics of "innovative poetry" and how those politics
relate (or might more effectively relate) to the current war and its
evolution. I am pleased that it seems to be doing a bit of that.
(Pleasing, too, is to have such an eccentric and unexpectedly
industrious "publicity machine," as it were, for the work!)

My main reason for writing this, however, is the following: to point
out to anyone who might be reading the comments boxes at Mr. Behrle's
blog that I have not sent in any commentary there, and I don't intend
to. It appears Mr. Behrle, or someone, is sending in comments under my
name (the one forwarded to me concerns oral sex; I don't know if that is
the only one or if there are others). Mr. Behrle (I am not being
carefully formal here, really, I just like the sound of the Mr.)
recently sent in a comment under my name to the blog of Tony Tost, so
more of these may be on the way. I just wanted to point this out.

OK, let the show go on!  (But could we please have more cartoons. Those
are fun.)

Kent





From editor  Wed Aug 10 18:18:23 2005
From: editor (editor at deaddrunkdublin.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:18:23 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] new writers & new poetry on deaddrunkdublin
Message-ID: <9943B8D0-6BA7-4580-B889-011182AF35C7@deaddrunkdublin.com>

d e a d   d r u n k   d u b l i n
& other imaginal spaces

p r e s e n t s

new writers:

stephen moran

cLoco the clown
carmencita haverty
the silver circle (incl live reading)

russell bittner
the girl from baku
1 - 6


new poetry collections:

maria pace
monica pace
christopher locke
mairead byrne
andrew lundwall
l. ward abel
michael k. gause
darran anderson
marissa ranello
tom wright
d. garcia wahl
terri carrion
gregorio racadio
sonja broderick (live readings)
john bryan


http://www.deaddrunkdublin.com/?buf

to subscribe to our occasional ezine for
updates, mail subscribe at deaddrunkdublin.com

enjoy!

andrew lovatt, editor


"it is only with the heart that one can see rightly;
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
- antoine de saint-exupery

"you can't depend on your eyes
when your imagination is out of focus"
- mark twain




a n d r e w   l o v a t t   :  e d i t o r


d e a d d r u n k d u b l i n
&   o t h e r   i m a g i n a l   s p a c e s

poems - live readings - stories - writings - music
manifestos - digital galleries - flash & movies

new poetry collections:
maria pace, monica pace, mairead byrne, christopher locke,
andrew lundwall, michael k. gause, l. ward abel (live audio)
d. garcia-wahl, darran anderson, marissa ranello,
tom wright, gregorio racadio, terri carrion, john bryan
sonja broderick (live audio)

coming next: alan jude moore, michael lovatt,
dolly sen, monica pace, michael rothenberg

music: andrew lovatt.
manifesto: the path IS peace, thich nhat hahn

new works coming online in mar/apr from:
barry fitton, bonnie macallister, calvin hernton,
carl neville,  eddie wall, frank walsh, ignacio fusilier,
john g hall, konstantina chochlaka, lane ashfeldt, liam cahill,
m a littler, pieter zandvliet, ralph david samuel, rodger jacobs,
sean patrick murphy, sinead gallgher, stephanie durann,
stephen moran, stephen oliver, susan kennedy, ulrike gerbig,
and more

flash art : animated paintings from konstantina chochlaka

to contribute, email the editor at deaddrunkdublin.com.
guidelines? explore the boundaries of experience & push the doors
of perception. dig deep & look high.

http://www.deaddrunkdublin.com/?eml


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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Aug 10 19:40:59 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:40:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] on the poetry after-wars
References: <s2fa2ff3.045@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <019801c59e04$f706c140$d3309b51@Robin>

Kent:


> I've pretty much refrained from publicly reacting to the rather
> astonishing self-immolation of Jim Berhle over the past few days.

You got a negative review on a blog (oh, dog save us) so?  ...

.... or have I missed something?

            Dear christ in heaven ...

... even for you, hunny bunch, this seems to be throwing a totally truly
remarkable snitty frit for publicity.

...   or have I missed something?

The Red Rover





From JforJames  Wed Aug 10 19:47:44 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:47:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
Message-ID: <1fa.e5aae6c.302bec20@aol.com>

I read this essay in APR but I never talked about it here...then I saw this 
posted on another list so I snipped & swiped for NewPoetry interest....

Ira Sadoff 

from Trafficking in the Radiant: The Spiritualization of American Poetry

"It's not possible to be sated with the world. I'm still insatiable," he
said. "At my age, I'm still looking for a form, for a language to express
the world." 

--interview with Czeslaw Milosz

At one time, perhaps thanks to New Criticism and an unmediated faith in the
canon, poets might have suggested more comfortably that they were exempt
from, or could at least transcend, the pressures of their age, thereby
aspiring to an eternal, "timeless poetry." At a time when mass culture
penetrates and corrupts our Romantic notions of self and individuality, it's
not difficult to recognize the effect of commerce and cheapened religiosity
on our faith in truth and absolutes (other than as a "regime of truth."). In
a recent New Yorker, Nicholas Lehman writes about the way commerce corrupts
our news reporting:

Most mainstream-media organizations, worried at being culturally and
politically out of synch with many Americans, are making an effort to reach
out--I frequently heard a promise to cover religion more seriously and
sympathetically. For many, that's a business imperative, an attempt to
broaden the audience, especially among conservatives. Neil Shapiro, the
President of NBC News...said of NBC News' new anchor, Brian Williams, 'He's
a great journalist, a great reporter. Having said that, he's a huge NASCAR
fan, has been since his father took him to the track when he was a kid. He
cares a lot about his faith. He wants to take the broadcast on the road a
lot. He was on the road a whole week before the inauguration. Brian does get
it. He once did a story on 'Cabela's'--the superstore chain for hunters. 1

This pandering, this compromising nexus between religiosity and cultural
currency, has leaked into all our discourses. It's no surprise that "faith"
has been ascendant these last several years. According to the American
Religion Data archive, there's been an 8.8 percent increase in Religious
adherents since 1990. 2One hears many explanations for this recent infusion
into mainstream culture: the constantly promoted but failed promise of
materialism to satisfy our inner-lives, well-organized fundamentalist
communities (modeled and promoted by the social polices of the current
administration), the increasing conservatism of the media (not only in radio
talk shows, but also in the clinical gaze of "therapeutic testimonials" from
the ilk of Dr. Phil and Dr. Laura), the perceived threat to western culture
by other religious sects, the threat to "decency" by secular humanism and
the pornography of American culture. It's not an ahistorical accident that
we more often look to a "higher power" to help cope with feelings of
powerlessness: our society contains no shortage of irrational darkness; our
current government represents the economic interests of a very few and seems
moreover committed to hegemony over other religions and cultures; lobbying
dollars decide more and more of our foreign and domestic policies, rendering
"one person, one vote," increasingly obsolete. Interest in religion has
always--albeit obliquely--reflected an historical component: why would the
critical vocabulary of contemporary poetry be exempt from these pressures?
This turn to spirituality is a consequence of the historical. My contention
is that using religion as a metaphorical expression of our
powerlessness--when the source of that feeling may originate in social
world--diminishes human agency and makes possible a hierarchical
authoritarianism; that the Romantic desire to transcend materiality leads to
a flight from the social and sexual; and finally, that the pandering we see
in the public sphere can also corrupt the spiritual impulse in art: in this
culture, spirituality sells.

Mass culture, Christian fundamentalism and the cheap spirituality of the
likes of Oprah Winfrey have surely made their contribution to this change.
But neo-formalist critic Christian Wiman has rightly chastised secular
writers--I'd have to include myself here--for the frequency with which they
address God in their poems. Recent collections--some more and some less
authentically--by Jorie Graham, Cal Bedient, Olena Kalytiak Davis, Brigit
Pegeen Kelly, Li-Young Lee, Franz Wright, W. S. DiPiero, Michael Ryan, Jane
Hirschfeld and Mark Jarman, just to name a few, accentuate our poets'
interest in the spiritual. Even a cursory glance at the current sites of
authority in poetry--that is to say, who chooses book prizes, who
anthologizes, who awards grants (signs that always reflect the values of the
dominant culture)--also illustrates these changing values. This shift
reverberates generationally, not only through the handing down of book
prizes, but in the way young artists naturally model their work after
accomplished teachers (most graduate writing programs market their programs
by listing their most "successful" students). Our poetic icons have also
changed: in the past two decades, Rilke has replaced Neruda as one of our
most influential poets (Neruda's sensual and political work saw prominence
during the "New Internationalism" of the Sixties and Seventies). T. S.
Eliot, whose reputation has fluctuated ever since he dominated generations
of writers through the 1950s, is again garnering heightened attention.

A look at the Poetry Daily website shows plenty of spiritually-centered
poems: one of the most interesting includes Brad Leithauser's, Dana Gioia's
and Mary Jo Salter's selection of Richard Wilbur's poems, each of which
explicitly traffics in the radiant impalpable (my tone derides the
ideological agenda in their choices but the reader can judge this excerpt
for him or herself).

"A Plain Song for Comadre"

Though the unseen may vanish, though insight fails
And doubter and downcast saint
Join in the same complaint,
What holy things were ever frightened off
By a fly's buzz, or itches, or a cough? 3

--Richard Wilbur, Collected Poems: 1943-2004

And who would have thought thirty-five years ago, when Larkin was waxing
nostalgically about the death of the Empire and of God ("No God any more, or
sweating in the dark;//About hell and that, or having to hide;//What you
think of the priest"), we'd be looking to lines like these from W. S.
DiPiero's poem "The Kiss," in his 2004 Knopf collection, Brother Fire?:

The mossy transom light, odors of cabbage
and ancient papers, while Father Feeney
polishes an apple on his tunic.
I tell him I want the life priests have,
not how the night sky's millions
of departing stars, erased by city lights,
terrify me toward God....
Where am I, Father, when I visit a life
inside or outside the one I'm in?

In our wronged world I see things
accidentally good:....
Tell what you know now
of dreadful freshness and want,
our stunned world peopled
by shadows solidly flesh,
a silted fountain of prayer
rising in our throat. 4

The worldly dissatisfactions in this sincere poem include being a spectator
to racial injustice and the Cuban missile crisis; the author humanely comes
to believe "...the wall's/filthy cracks, ... /held stories I'd find/and
tell." Thus the speaker decides he'll give voice to the voiceless. But this
poem's new critical paradoxes, its mythic reference to the fall, its
yearning for the life of the Priest, the description of worldly decay in the
"silted fountain" (all strategies seemingly influenced by late Eliot), still
end in an ambivalent desire to defer to the Priest's authority and to "make
our prayers heard." The religious impulse in this poem authorizes the lyric
speaker's mission and morality, and, since he has little self-consciousness
about taking dominion over other people's stories, risks moral superiority.
The British poet Douglas Dunn, in an early poem called "I am a Cameraman"
(the camera as a metaphor for writing) suggests the dangers of such
spectatorship and representation:

They suffer, and I catch only the surface.
The rest is inexpressible, beyond
What can be recorded. You can't be them.
If they'd talk to you, you might guess
What pain is like though they might spit on you.

DiPiero's poem suggests the difficulty in the lyric poet's spiritual
positioning: while the speaker presents himself with humility, his assertion
that he can represent others suggests a more complicated
self-aggrandizement. The gap between an artist's "presentation self" and his
or her own complicated and uninterrogated worldly drives (here,
self-justification of narrative for social action authorized by religiosity
authority) complicates the spiritual declaration in art.

Paolo Veronese's painting, "Il Ricco Epulone," in Venice's Galleria
D'Academia (which may be found online at:
http://www.wga.hu/framese.html?/html/b/bonifaci/dives.html), portrays the
allegory of Lazarus and the Beggar from Luke 16:19-31. The stated subject is
unchristian behavior: a wealthy patron refuses the beggar. But here the
beggar's banished to the lower right corner of the canvas, he's nowhere near
skeletal with hunger nor even shabbily dressed; his neutral fleshy colors,
far from the painting's center of interest, almost fade from view--even the
dog that's supposed to be nipping at his clothes is apparently politely
sniffing him. Poverty's viewed safely from afar. The center of the
painting's reserved for the courtiers portraying luxurious and joyful
Venetian life. Painted during the heyday of Venice's secular and mercantile
dominance over its neighbors, Veronese celebrates the figures' colorful
clothes and draperies of crimson and green. A noble, wooden, statue-like
Moor child holds a musical score for the mandolin player. Our eye is drawn
to the laughter, to dreamy sensual pleasure--one couple holding hands,
another young man admiring the back of the lutenist's neck. The true subject
of this historically transposed moment (from the age of Christ to the
Eighteenth Century), is lushness and privilege: how lucky some of us are to
be living in this cornucopia of luxury. The moment when Lazarus receives
heaven's blessing temporally resides elsewhere and is not really Veronese's
project here. The viewer can righteously leave the painting thinking well of
himself for his sensitivity to the religious subject and at the same time
receive all the titillating pleasures of commerce. During the Inquisition,
Veronese was accused of heresy for "vulgar" paintings like these, but he had
plenty of patrons and, like his students and Venice itself, he prospered.

The invocation of piety and the invocation of the other-worldly, while
luxuriating and enacting material privilege, reside uncomfortably together
in the Veronese painting. Similarly, the sensitive lyric poet, usually
insulated from poverty, "humbly" invokes his or her desire for spiritual
revelation or pleads for Job-like justice, while under his or her work lies
either ego-display or the seduction of the fashionable; as with the
Veronese, the art's an uninterrogated reflection of the dominant culture. I
don't impugn the motives of any single poet, but wish to underline that in a
capitalist culture like ours, the resurgence of these poems is entangled
with the contradictory and corrupting fashions of commerce and culture. When
the artist receives recognition for his spiritualizing vision--for
consciously or unconsciously mirroring and promoting this intensifying
cultural need for privatism and escape--the temptation to maintain cultural
approval, to repeat those strategies--to use Dickinson's diction--"auctions"
that spirituality. Furthermore, all the contradictions of bourgeois
life--the desire to be seen as a good citizen, existing simultaneously with
the infantile wish for safety and protection--reside in many of these poems.
These poems long to tame the danger of living in this world.
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From grahamd  Wed Aug 10 21:18:38 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:18:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Actually...
Message-ID: <BF20119E.13690%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Shnordink's Butterfly

Shnordink? Oh I suppose he has a few good clumpies.
He's not terrible. That one about the moth or butterfly in the graveyard
is pretty good. He has some talent.
Wait a second. Shnordink . . .  Say,
is he friends with Audrey Rosedorf
who writes those arrogant reviews in Muskmelon Quarterly?
He is? Interesting. Actually,
there's something ultimately hollow in Shnordink,
there's a telltale streak of falsity, a tinniness,
a kind of damp-nosed insidious posing,
a quality of trying-to-play-ball-like-the-bigger-boys . . .
It's as if Rosedorf's absurdly stiff-necked high-handedness had--
What? He did?
Shnordink said I was important?
An important clumper with enviable imaginative flair?
That's interesting. Actually,
I'm pleased to hear it, simply because
Shnordink is not an idiot (whatever his limitations);
I think he has been underestimated in some quarters.
Actually, I'm thinking of reviewing his latest.
A few of those clumpies are, um, rather marvelous, and
the book as a whole, I'm going to say, is quirky and engaging.

*In the hillside cemetery accented with circles of petunias and irises,
a creature borne on translucent blue-green wings
rests momentarily atop one stone or another
and then launches itself anew*.

--Mark Halliday.  Jab.  U Chicago, 2002.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Aug 10 23:13:22 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:13:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
Message-ID: <67.4ab3aef5.302c1c52@cs.com>

That Ira, he is nothing if not consistent.  Talk about hobgoblins of small 
minds . . .

Why should a poet not, in times of temporal crisis, yearn toward the 
spiritual?  One might as well damn Dante for escapism or Milton for equivocation.

Ira Sadoff is the Grinch of contemporary criticism.  
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Aug 10 23:33:59 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:33:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
Message-ID: <7d.6f141989.302c2127@cs.com>

The Wilbur poem ("A Plain Song for Comadre") which Sadoff quotes is about a 
woman, Bruna Sandoval, who has patiently worked as a janitor for many years in 
a Catholic church in New Mexico.  How her devotion to doing a nasty job well 
and taking pride in it (AMDG, if that be the case) can be construed as 
something that "explicitly traffics in the radiant impalpable" is frankly beyond my 
comprehension.  But one expects such condescension from the likes of Mr. Sadoff, 
who has plainly not gone down upon his own marrow bones in all kinds of 
weather.
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Aug 10 23:36:29 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:36:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
Message-ID: <9d.65906410.302c21bd@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/10/2005 6:48:00 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> T. S. Eliot, whose reputation has fluctuated ever since he dominated 
> generations
> of writers through the 1950s, is again garnering heightened attention.

Does anyone know where I can buy Eliot futures?  I can't find him listed on 
the Chicago Board of Trade.
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Aug 10 23:38:18 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:38:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
Message-ID: <19c.39307b28.302c222a@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/10/2005 6:48:00 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> Paolo Veronese's painting, "Il Ricco Epulone," in Venice's Galleria
> D'Academia (which may be found online at:
> http://www.wga.hu/framese.html?/html/b/bonifaci/dives.html), portrays the
> allegory of Lazarus and the Beggar from Luke 16:19-31. The stated subject is
> unchristian behavior: a wealthy patron refuses the beggar. But here the
> beggar's banished to the lower right corner of the canvas, he's nowhere near
> skeletal with hunger nor even shabbily dressed; his neutral fleshy colors,
> far from the painting's center of interest, almost fade from view--even the
> dog that's supposed to be nipping at his clothes is apparently politely
> sniffing him. Poverty's viewed safely from afar. The center of the
> painting's reserved for the courtiers portraying luxurious and joyful
> Venetian life. Painted during the heyday of Venice's secular and mercantile
> dominance over its neighbors, Veronese celebrates the figures' colorful
> clothes and draperies of crimson and green. A noble, wooden, statue-like
> Moor child holds a musical score for the mandolin player. Our eye is drawn
> to the laughter, to dreamy sensual pleasure--one couple holding hands,
> another young man admiring the back of the lutenist's neck. The true subject
> of this historically transposed moment (from the age of Christ to the
> Eighteenth Century), is lushness and privilege: how lucky some of us are to
> be living in this cornucopia of luxury. The moment when Lazarus receives
> heaven's blessing temporally resides elsewhere and is not really Veronese's
> project here. The viewer can righteously leave the painting thinking well of
> himself for his sensitivity to the religious subject and at the same time
> receive all the titillating pleasures of commerce. During the Inquisition,
> Veronese was accused of heresy for "vulgar" paintings like these, but he had
> plenty of patrons and, like his students and Venice itself, he prospered.


So much for the populist appeal . . .
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Aug 10 23:49:47 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:49:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Copy of email send to Ira Sadoff
Message-ID: <cd.2e24519e.302c24db@cs.com>

Hey, I just read this online!  Congratulations!  You have once again 
confirmed yourself as one of the preeminent morons of our generation!  That's no small 
accomplishment, given our generation!  WTG!  And, gosh, your comments on "A 
Plain Song for Comadre," that Wilburian exhortation for everyone to turn 
Republican and evangelical and keep the current regime in power, are right on!  
Gosh!

R. S. Gwynn
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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Aug 10 23:59:47 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 04:59:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
References: <9d.65906410.302c21bd@cs.com>
Message-ID: <027c01c59e29$1f18e4a0$d3309b51@Robin>

Does anyone know where I can buy Eliot futures?  I can't find him listed on the Chicago Board of Trade. 

Buy +Inventions of the March Hair+.

Cheap and paper and lethal.

R.

(no Eliot fan, me.)
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From david.bircumshaw  Thu Aug 11 01:52:30 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:52:30 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
References: <9d.65906410.302c21bd@cs.com>
	<027c01c59e29$1f18e4a0$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <007601c59e38$dd35e0a0$36e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

One of my favourite Eliot anecdotes is that Auden is supposed to have once asked Eliot why he liked playing Patience so much?

Eliot's reputed reply was that it was the nearest or next best thing to extinction that he knew.

Best

Dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robin Hamilton 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant


  Does anyone know where I can buy Eliot futures?  I can't find him listed on the Chicago Board of Trade. 

  Buy +Inventions of the March Hair+.

  Cheap and paper and lethal.

  R.

  (no Eliot fan, me.)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From anny.ballardini  Thu Aug 11 04:12:57 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:12:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
References: <1fa.e5aae6c.302bec20@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c59e4c$7b996240$178e3052@ANNY>

I also noticed this controversial and complex article, but I read it only now because James Finnegan sent it to the list.

 

What bothers me directly is that, as usual, the American society is vivisected, while the (Italian, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, English, Irish, Swedish, Norway, Finnish,.Australian, New Zealand, Japanese.) come out untouched, not to mention the new European States such as Poland, Slovakia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Malta, Hungary, Latvia..., eager to enter the Great Machine -ah that financial support how important it is! Ok, the States are under trial, the better for them, they will ameliorate and these countries will inevitably slide further down their well deserved corruption in which they have already been living for centuries and centuries, and as a monstrous lung, they will reproduce it for themselves ad infinitum.

 

Re.: Veronese, put down in this context it seems that the Inquisition was a good thing, wow, while the sinful Venice, the same artist, and his patrons were the selfish actors of an era. We study things the other way round here. Anyhow Veronese has never been my favorite, have a look at Tiepolo, Giovanni Battista (Italian painter, Venetian school (b. 1696, Venezia, d. 1770, Madrid), something like the Allegory of Merit Accompanied by Nobility and Virtue
1757-58
Fresco, 1000 x 600 cm
Museo del Settecento Veneziano, Ca' Rezzonico, Venice. 

http://www.wga.hu/index1.html

 

But let's go a little backwards, Michelangelo, Leonardo, hadn't Leonardo lived at various courts as a matter of fact, and he also drew war machines, behold - behold, painting was his _hobby_, or even worse, a way to round up when he portrayed the lords and their wives or lovers! Yes, we have studied and admired for ages those who were corrupted and privileged.

These ideas messed up my adolescence, and I had plenty of time to witness the evolution of the lives of those who so attentively imbued me with them, they do not stick with me any more. 

 

One more note, aren't the authors moving along the leitmotiv of the New Age, a concept they _as intellectuals_ should simply dread? What a tiny little mess they got into. 



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.



  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:47 AM


  I read this essay in APR but I never talked about it here...then I saw this 
  posted on another list so I snipped & swiped for NewPoetry interest....

  Ira Sadoff 

  from Trafficking in the Radiant: The Spiritualization of American Poetry

  "It's not possible to be sated with the world. I'm still insatiable," he
  said. "At my age, I'm still looking for a form, for a language to express
  the world." 

  --interview with Czeslaw Milosz

  At one time, perhaps thanks to New Criticism and an unmediated faith in the
  canon, poets might have suggested more comfortably that they were exempt
  from, or could at least transcend, the pressures of their age, thereby
  aspiring to an eternal, "timeless poetry." At a time when mass culture
  penetrates and corrupts our Romantic notions of self and individuality, it's
  not difficult to recognize the effect of commerce and cheapened religiosity
  on our faith in truth and absolutes (other than as a "regime of truth."). In
  a recent New Yorker, Nicholas Lehman writes about the way commerce corrupts
  our news reporting:

  Most mainstream-media organizations, worried at being culturally and
  politically out of synch with many Americans, are making an effort to reach
  out--I frequently heard a promise to cover religion more seriously and
  sympathetically. For many, that's a business imperative, an attempt to
  broaden the audience, especially among conservatives. Neil Shapiro, the
  President of NBC News...said of NBC News' new anchor, Brian Williams, 'He's
  a great journalist, a great reporter. Having said that, he's a huge NASCAR
  fan, has been since his father took him to the track when he was a kid. He
  cares a lot about his faith. He wants to take the broadcast on the road a
  lot. He was on the road a whole week before the inauguration. Brian does get
  it. He once did a story on 'Cabela's'--the superstore chain for hunters. 1

  This pandering, this compromising nexus between religiosity and cultural
  currency, has leaked into all our discourses. It's no surprise that "faith"
  has been ascendant these last several years. According to the American
  Religion Data archive, there's been an 8.8 percent increase in Religious
  adherents since 1990. 2One hears many explanations for this recent infusion
  into mainstream culture: the constantly promoted but failed promise of
  materialism to satisfy our inner-lives, well-organized fundamentalist
  communities (modeled and promoted by the social polices of the current
  administration), the increasing conservatism of the media (not only in radio
  talk shows, but also in the clinical gaze of "therapeutic testimonials" from
  the ilk of Dr. Phil and Dr. Laura), the perceived threat to western culture
  by other religious sects, the threat to "decency" by secular humanism and
  the pornography of American culture. It's not an ahistorical accident that
  we more often look to a "higher power" to help cope with feelings of
  powerlessness: our society contains no shortage of irrational darkness; our
  current government represents the economic interests of a very few and seems
  moreover committed to hegemony over other religions and cultures; lobbying
  dollars decide more and more of our foreign and domestic policies, rendering
  "one person, one vote," increasingly obsolete. Interest in religion has
  always--albeit obliquely--reflected an historical component: why would the
  critical vocabulary of contemporary poetry be exempt from these pressures?
  This turn to spirituality is a consequence of the historical. My contention
  is that using religion as a metaphorical expression of our
  powerlessness--when the source of that feeling may originate in social
  world--diminishes human agency and makes possible a hierarchical
  authoritarianism; that the Romantic desire to transcend materiality leads to
  a flight from the social and sexual; and finally, that the pandering we see
  in the public sphere can also corrupt the spiritual impulse in art: in this
  culture, spirituality sells.

  Mass culture, Christian fundamentalism and the cheap spirituality of the
  likes of Oprah Winfrey have surely made their contribution to this change.
  But neo-formalist critic Christian Wiman has rightly chastised secular
  writers--I'd have to include myself here--for the frequency with which they
  address God in their poems. Recent collections--some more and some less
  authentically--by Jorie Graham, Cal Bedient, Olena Kalytiak Davis, Brigit
  Pegeen Kelly, Li-Young Lee, Franz Wright, W. S. DiPiero, Michael Ryan, Jane
  Hirschfeld and Mark Jarman, just to name a few, accentuate our poets'
  interest in the spiritual. Even a cursory glance at the current sites of
  authority in poetry--that is to say, who chooses book prizes, who
  anthologizes, who awards grants (signs that always reflect the values of the
  dominant culture)--also illustrates these changing values. This shift
  reverberates generationally, not only through the handing down of book
  prizes, but in the way young artists naturally model their work after
  accomplished teachers (most graduate writing programs market their programs
  by listing their most "successful" students). Our poetic icons have also
  changed: in the past two decades, Rilke has replaced Neruda as one of our
  most influential poets (Neruda's sensual and political work saw prominence
  during the "New Internationalism" of the Sixties and Seventies). T. S.
  Eliot, whose reputation has fluctuated ever since he dominated generations
  of writers through the 1950s, is again garnering heightened attention.

  A look at the Poetry Daily website shows plenty of spiritually-centered
  poems: one of the most interesting includes Brad Leithauser's, Dana Gioia's
  and Mary Jo Salter's selection of Richard Wilbur's poems, each of which
  explicitly traffics in the radiant impalpable (my tone derides the
  ideological agenda in their choices but the reader can judge this excerpt
  for him or herself).

  "A Plain Song for Comadre"

  Though the unseen may vanish, though insight fails
  And doubter and downcast saint
  Join in the same complaint,
  What holy things were ever frightened off
  By a fly's buzz, or itches, or a cough? 3

  --Richard Wilbur, Collected Poems: 1943-2004

  And who would have thought thirty-five years ago, when Larkin was waxing
  nostalgically about the death of the Empire and of God ("No God any more, or
  sweating in the dark;//About hell and that, or having to hide;//What you
  think of the priest"), we'd be looking to lines like these from W. S.
  DiPiero's poem "The Kiss," in his 2004 Knopf collection, Brother Fire?:

  The mossy transom light, odors of cabbage
  and ancient papers, while Father Feeney
  polishes an apple on his tunic.
  I tell him I want the life priests have,
  not how the night sky's millions
  of departing stars, erased by city lights,
  terrify me toward God....
  Where am I, Father, when I visit a life
  inside or outside the one I'm in?

  In our wronged world I see things
  accidentally good:....
  Tell what you know now
  of dreadful freshness and want,
  our stunned world peopled
  by shadows solidly flesh,
  a silted fountain of prayer
  rising in our throat. 4

  The worldly dissatisfactions in this sincere poem include being a spectator
  to racial injustice and the Cuban missile crisis; the author humanely comes
  to believe "...the wall's/filthy cracks, ... /held stories I'd find/and
  tell." Thus the speaker decides he'll give voice to the voiceless. But this
  poem's new critical paradoxes, its mythic reference to the fall, its
  yearning for the life of the Priest, the description of worldly decay in the
  "silted fountain" (all strategies seemingly influenced by late Eliot), still
  end in an ambivalent desire to defer to the Priest's authority and to "make
  our prayers heard." The religious impulse in this poem authorizes the lyric
  speaker's mission and morality, and, since he has little self-consciousness
  about taking dominion over other people's stories, risks moral superiority.
  The British poet Douglas Dunn, in an early poem called "I am a Cameraman"
  (the camera as a metaphor for writing) suggests the dangers of such
  spectatorship and representation:

  They suffer, and I catch only the surface.
  The rest is inexpressible, beyond
  What can be recorded. You can't be them.
  If they'd talk to you, you might guess
  What pain is like though they might spit on you.

  DiPiero's poem suggests the difficulty in the lyric poet's spiritual
  positioning: while the speaker presents himself with humility, his assertion
  that he can represent others suggests a more complicated
  self-aggrandizement. The gap between an artist's "presentation self" and his
  or her own complicated and uninterrogated worldly drives (here,
  self-justification of narrative for social action authorized by religiosity
  authority) complicates the spiritual declaration in art.

  Paolo Veronese's painting, "Il Ricco Epulone," in Venice's Galleria
  D'Academia (which may be found online at:
  http://www.wga.hu/framese.html?/html/b/bonifaci/dives.html), portrays the
  allegory of Lazarus and the Beggar from Luke 16:19-31. The stated subject is
  unchristian behavior: a wealthy patron refuses the beggar. But here the
  beggar's banished to the lower right corner of the canvas, he's nowhere near
  skeletal with hunger nor even shabbily dressed; his neutral fleshy colors,
  far from the painting's center of interest, almost fade from view--even the
  dog that's supposed to be nipping at his clothes is apparently politely
  sniffing him. Poverty's viewed safely from afar. The center of the
  painting's reserved for the courtiers portraying luxurious and joyful
  Venetian life. Painted during the heyday of Venice's secular and mercantile
  dominance over its neighbors, Veronese celebrates the figures' colorful
  clothes and draperies of crimson and green. A noble, wooden, statue-like
  Moor child holds a musical score for the mandolin player. Our eye is drawn
  to the laughter, to dreamy sensual pleasure--one couple holding hands,
  another young man admiring the back of the lutenist's neck. The true subject
  of this historically transposed moment (from the age of Christ to the
  Eighteenth Century), is lushness and privilege: how lucky some of us are to
  be living in this cornucopia of luxury. The moment when Lazarus receives
  heaven's blessing temporally resides elsewhere and is not really Veronese's
  project here. The viewer can righteously leave the painting thinking well of
  himself for his sensitivity to the religious subject and at the same time
  receive all the titillating pleasures of commerce. During the Inquisition,
  Veronese was accused of heresy for "vulgar" paintings like these, but he had
  plenty of patrons and, like his students and Venice itself, he prospered.

  The invocation of piety and the invocation of the other-worldly, while
  luxuriating and enacting material privilege, reside uncomfortably together
  in the Veronese painting. Similarly, the sensitive lyric poet, usually
  insulated from poverty, "humbly" invokes his or her desire for spiritual
  revelation or pleads for Job-like justice, while under his or her work lies
  either ego-display or the seduction of the fashionable; as with the
  Veronese, the art's an uninterrogated reflection of the dominant culture. I
  don't impugn the motives of any single poet, but wish to underline that in a
  capitalist culture like ours, the resurgence of these poems is entangled
  with the contradictory and corrupting fashions of commerce and culture. When
  the artist receives recognition for his spiritualizing vision--for
  consciously or unconsciously mirroring and promoting this intensifying
  cultural need for privatism and escape--the temptation to maintain cultural
  approval, to repeat those strategies--to use Dickinson's diction--"auctions"
  that spirituality. Furthermore, all the contradictions of bourgeois
  life--the desire to be seen as a good citizen, existing simultaneously with
  the infantile wish for safety and protection--reside in many of these poems.
  These poems long to tame the danger of living in this world.




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From JforJames  Thu Aug 11 08:54:56 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:54:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's Trafficking in the Radiant
Message-ID: <8.6e41230d.302ca4a0@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/10/2005 11:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> Ira Sadoff is the Grinch of contemporary criticism

I was going to say that if Logan the bad-boy critic of Contemporary
Poetry, then Sadoff is the 'always looking darkly through a glass 
half-full'  critic of Contemporary Poetry.
Finnegan 
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From JforJames  Thu Aug 11 09:09:47 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:09:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Berhle message to list
Message-ID: <12a.631f3f42.302ca81b@aol.com>



In a message dated 8/10/2005 11:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jimbehrle at gmail.com writes:

> Subj: hey 
>  Date: 8/10/2005 11:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From: jimbehrle at gmail.com
>  To: JforJames at aol.com
>  Sent from the Internet 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi.
> 
> You might wanna pass this on to your list or you might not.  But just so you 
> know.
> 
> * I haven't been signing any messages as Kent anywhere.  If people are using 
> his name on my blog board it's not at my beckoning.  Like I did not 
> immediately assume that Ammiel Alcalay was commenting in my comments fields, no one 
> should assume that anyone is using their real name on that blog board.
> 
> * I said in my review of Kent's books that his poems seemed dated--it was 
> Kent's friend John Latta who then hop-skipped-jumped to say that I had said 
> that the war is over.  I'm not arguing that the war is over.  I'm arguing that 
> Kent's poems about Abu Ghraib, Basra and speeches in early 2003 seem dated.  
> Why Kent and Kent's pr buddies have spread it the other way, ~shrug~.
> 
> Be well.
> 
> Jimmy
> 

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From JforJames  Thu Aug 11 09:15:23 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:15:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?DRUNKEN_BOAT=E2=80=99S_FIRST_ANNUAL_PANLI?=
 =?utf-8?q?TERARY_AWARDS?=
Message-ID: <129.62c91ecc.302ca96b@aol.com>

DRUNKEN BOAT?S FIRST ANNUAL PANLITERARY AWARDS 
Deadline Extended to: August 15th, 2005
Judges: Annie Finch, Sabina Murray, Alexandra Tolstoy, Talan Memmott, David 
Hall, and DJ Spooky 

Drunken Boat, <http://www.drunkenboat.com>, international online journal for 
the arts, announces its First Annual Panliterary Awards in Poetry, Fiction, 
Non-Fiction, Web-Art, Photo/Video, Sound. Submit up to three works, either via 
email to <panlitawards at drunkenboat.com>or via physical mail to: Drunken Boat, 
119 Main St., Chester, CT 06412. A $15 entry fee must accompany all 
submissions, either via check or money order, else submitted electronically at: <
http://www.drunkenboat.com/db7/donate.html>. Winners in all categories will be 
featured in a subsequent issue of Drunken Boat, and will be invited to perform at 
future multimedia events and performances with all expenses paid. All other 
entries will be considered for publication.

Submissions must be received no later than August 15th, 2005. Awards will be 
given in the following genres: poetry, fiction, non-fiction, web art, 
photo/video and sound. The judges for the Panliterary Awards are:

Poetry? Annie Finch, Poet, translator, and librettist and Director of the 
Stonecoast MFA Program in Creative Writing at the University of Southern Maine, <
http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar/>

Fiction? Sabina Murray, 2003 PEN/Faulkner Award Winner <
http://www.groveatlantic.com/grove/wc.dll?groveproc~book~4236>? 

Non-Fiction? Alexandra Tolstoy, Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, <
http://www.alexandratolstoy.com/> 

Web-Art? Talan Memmott, 2000 trAce / Alt-X New Media Writing Award Winner and 
Creative Director for the literary hypermedia journal, BeeHive, <
http://www.memmott.org/talan/>

Photo/Video? David Hall, Video art pioneer, TV interventionist, installation 
artist, sculptor and filmmaker. <http://www.davidhallart.com/>

Sound? Paul D. Miller, aka DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid, Musician, writer, 
producer, editor-at-large of Artbyte, and conceptual artist whose work has 
appeared in the Whitney Biennial and the Venice Biennial for Architecture, <
http://www.djspooky.com/>

Works will be accepted as URLs of work online, as attachments (MSWord files 
or .jpg/.gif/.zip/.swf/.html/.mp3/.mov/.wav files), or else as hard copy, disk, 
or CD/DVD. Please include the phrase Panliterary Awards in the subject line 
of any email submission and do not paste text submissions into the body of the 
email. Email editor at drunkenboat.com or shankarr at ccsu.edu for more information.

+-+-+ Drunken Boat is a non-profit organization that depends on public 
assistance for its sustenance. Please see <
http://www.drunkenboat.com/db6/donate.html> to make a tax-deductible donation.+-+-+

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From lattaj  Thu Aug 11 09:31:19 2005
From: lattaj (John Latta)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:31:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Berhle message to list
In-Reply-To: <12a.631f3f42.302ca81b@aol.com>
References: <12a.631f3f42.302ca81b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0508110930550.11139@arkanoid.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

John Latta


On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

>
>
> In a message dated 8/10/2005 11:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jimbehrle at gmail.com writes:
>
>> Subj: hey
>>  Date: 8/10/2005 11:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>  From: jimbehrle at gmail.com
>>  To: JforJames at aol.com
>>  Sent from the Internet
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> You might wanna pass this on to your list or you might not.  But just so you
>> know.
>>
>> * I haven't been signing any messages as Kent anywhere.  If people are using
>> his name on my blog board it's not at my beckoning.  Like I did not
>> immediately assume that Ammiel Alcalay was commenting in my comments fields, no one
>> should assume that anyone is using their real name on that blog board.
>>
>> * I said in my review of Kent's books that his poems seemed dated--it was
>> Kent's friend John Latta who then hop-skipped-jumped to say that I had said
>> that the war is over.  I'm not arguing that the war is over.  I'm arguing that
>> Kent's poems about Abu Ghraib, Basra and speeches in early 2003 seem dated.
>> Why Kent and Kent's pr buddies have spread it the other way, ~shrug~.
>>
>> Be well.
>>
>> Jimmy
>>
>
>



From grahamd  Thu Aug 11 11:33:52 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:33:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Halliday
Message-ID: <BF20DA10.136D5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Another poem from Mark Halliday, whose books I have  been re-reading lately.


Skirt


The very fact that her skirt swirls
bespeaks something that compels my interest
as if not because the skirt covers her ass and thighs
as if I mean not only because given a chance I'd want
very very much probably to help her take the skirt off
in a fantasy bedroom, but for some more lovely reason
more lovely I mean because more mysterious
when she swirls my head turns on my not-merely-biological neck
to follow the play of shadow in those folds of cloth--

in the swirling there is some meaning that draws me
without specific reference I'm saying to her vagina
somewhere beneath the skirt and what my penis might get to do;

it's about a flowing quality in life I'm serious
about something flowing like light among branches
on a windy day, the truth or a truth of how
the beauty of our life is like a winding river
under rapid shifting clouds and how the river is change
and change is possibility and our infinity of possibility is
what makes us not just banal dogs wagged by our tails.
There across the crowded room she turns and turns,
her hair swings, her skirt swirls, she doesn't know
I'm standing here with these deep insights into everything
but if I write it all down with a lovely
swirling of its own she might read it and see
that if I stare at her it is not just the usual but
because I am interesting here alone at the edge of the dance.


--Mark Halliday.  Selfwolf.  U Chicago, 1999.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From JforJames  Thu Aug 11 11:51:56 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:51:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Halliday
Message-ID: <1ed.41bffeb3.302cce1c@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/11/2005 11:32:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
Another poem from Mark Halliday, whose books I have  been re-reading lately.  



David, don't you go on a Halliday holiday at least once a year?
Finnegan 
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From grahamd  Thu Aug 11 12:06:30 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:06:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Halliday
In-Reply-To: <1ed.41bffeb3.302cce1c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF20E1B6.136DC%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 8/11/05 10:51 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/11/2005 11:32:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
Another poem from Mark Halliday, whose books I have  been re-reading lately.
 

David, don't you go on a Halliday holiday at least once a year?
Finnegan 
---------------


Yup.  Now that Kenneth Koch has died, I'm counting on Halliday for my yearly
ration of metaphysical comedy.  By the way, I finally finished my essay on
Halliday that I was talking about on NewPo long ago--it should be appearing
in *Valparaiso Poetry Review* sometime in the nearish future.  Ed Byrne, if
he's reading, can supply specifics.

The older I get the more I enjoy re-reading, as distinct from reading.
There are poets and poems I tire of, but others who seldom fail.  Halliday
is one of my old reliables (along with even older reliables like Whitman,
naturally).  

Any other Halliday fans around?

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From William_Knott  Thu Aug 11 14:28:26 2005
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:28:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 14, Issue 15
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>



In a message dated 8/10/2005 11:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> Ira Sadoff is the Grinch of contemporary criticism

I was going to say that if Logan the bad-boy critic of Contemporary
Poetry, then Sadoff is the 'always looking darkly through a glass 
half-full'  critic of Contemporary Poetry.
Finnegan 


.... you can slang him around with grinch and bad-boy and so on, but 
there must be others besides Sadoff who find the "spirituality" of 
much recent U.S.poetry to be suspiciously 
opportunistic and servile given the current political climate. . . .
i've wondered about that myself lately....

when i adumbrated the subject a couple years ago on this
list and wondered why there were so many anthologies of
spiritual poetry on the bookstore shelves, and not a single one of
atheist poetry, i was told to go edit such an anthology myself,
which shut me up and chagrined me into silence....  you
can silence a nothing nobody like me, but i'm glad to
see an influential publication like APR bring the matter
forward for consideration....

Sadoff's point about the waning influence of marxist poets
like Neruda, and the subsequent rising interest in Rilke, is 
right, i think... and poets don't live in a vacuum or an ivory
tower, political and social events must affect our choices...
if Hilary Clinton must swerve right to survive or win, then
why not we poets also. . .

but i wonder if it's less a matter of the immediately
political than a longterm inherent dilemma: i defer to
Octavio Paz.  Here's some thoughts from "Children of the Mire":
"Poets reacted to the assault on Christianity by critical
philosophy by becoming the channels through which
the ancient religious spirit, Christian and pre-Christian,
was transmitted. . . .  More than once?with irritation
but not without true insight?Trotsky pointed out 
religious elements in the work of the majority of Russian
poets and writers of the [1920s]. . . . Trotsky's criticism
amounts to a condemnation of poetry. . . . [H]is criticism
of poetry . . . takes on the form of the criticism which
philosophy and science since the eighteenth century
have made of the religion, myths, magic, and other beliefs
of the past.   Neither philosophers nor revolutionaries can
patiently tolerate the ambivalence of poets. . . . Here lies
the basis of the misunderstanding between revolutionaries
and poets, which no one has been able to unravel.
If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . . The
opposition between the poetic and the revolutionary
spirit is part of a larger contradiction, that of the linear
time of the modern age as opposed to the rhythmic time
of the poem."  Etc etc (all this from Chapter 6, pages 104-onward)....

as much as i would like to second Sadoff and see some
reactionary backsliding, some political opportunism,
some resurgence of right-wing blahblahblah, i fear that
the phenomenon is cyclical, and Paz is again
apropos: "The history of modern poetry is that of the
oscillation between revolutionary temptation and religious
temptation."

can any of us resist the swing of the pendulum, and should
we even try?

but i applaud Sadoff for struggling with the question, for staking
a position in the debate (and it is a debate, a dilemma, despite
your glib dismissals). . . .

contra Eliot, the society of poetry needs more "free-thinking Jews" 
like Sadoff.....

.... knotthead



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From halvard  Thu Aug 11 14:58:19 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:58:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just in case . . .
Message-ID: <093318f7af6b35340fbc56603b400c78@earthlink.net>

you're ever tempted to make another list.

	http://www.scaruffi.com/index.html

Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From Kent.Johnson  Thu Aug 11 14:58:45 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:58:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
Message-ID: <s2fb59ae.079@mail.highland.edu>

You know Bill, as someone who is even worse than a poetic "nothing
nobody," I was personally intrigued by your post on this "spiritual"
turn in poetry away from the "political." I read that Sadoff article and
thought it was interesting, though a bit awkward in its arguments here
and there.

I mean, I'm interested because I edited an anthology of Buddhist poetry
once, and I just published a book of poems about the current war, and it
is a rather pissed off and in your face book... 

I don't regret doing that anthology and I don't regret the current
book. In fact, I'd like to think that there may be some Buddhist spirit
here and there in Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz. Probably not, but I'd
like to think so... 

I would say that for poetry today, in this time of poetry's stunning
(this is how I see it) impotence and silence before the current horrors,
that it's not a matter of Spirituality vs. the Political (or
revolutionary, as Paz has it). It's a matter of vapid Spiritual poetry
and simplistic Political poetry vs. complexly Spiritual Revolutionary
poetry. 

Not that I have the slightest idea what the latter would be, but it's
worth starting to poke at the dark creature and see if it might stir! 

Kent



From anny.ballardini  Thu Aug 11 15:02:04 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:02:04 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 14, Issue 15
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <006b01c59ea7$2a2a27e0$94d73152@ANNY>



Sorry you were chagrined into silence. A list is made by many people, sometimes only one has time to comment. And the thought of the one rarely reflects the thought of the other.

Probably you do not want this answer of mine, for example, you would rather wish to be taken into consideration by some other people with whom you can have a great fight, or clash of ideals and bring forth some other brilliant ideas. That is also why I stick to this list and read almost all the mails.

I anyhow wanted to re-quote one of your quotations:

"Neither philosophers nor revolutionaries can
patiently tolerate the ambivalence of poets. . . . Here lies
the basis of the misunderstanding between revolutionaries
and poets, which no one has been able to unravel.
If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . "

This is excellent and depicts right there the true essence of the poet. Not a politician not a priest or nun, but standing on his/her own, in this sort of magic element which is poetry.
I think this solves all the diatribes, 
Best wishes,

Anny Ballardini

From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:28 PM




In a message dated 8/10/2005 11:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> Ira Sadoff is the Grinch of contemporary criticism

I was going to say that if Logan the bad-boy critic of Contemporary
Poetry, then Sadoff is the 'always looking darkly through a glass 
half-full'  critic of Contemporary Poetry.
Finnegan 


.... you can slang him around with grinch and bad-boy and so on, but 
there must be others besides Sadoff who find the "spirituality" of 
much recent U.S.poetry to be suspiciously 
opportunistic and servile given the current political climate. . . .
i've wondered about that myself lately....

when i adumbrated the subject a couple years ago on this
list and wondered why there were so many anthologies of
spiritual poetry on the bookstore shelves, and not a single one of
atheist poetry, i was told to go edit such an anthology myself,
which shut me up and chagrined me into silence....  you
can silence a nothing nobody like me, but i'm glad to
see an influential publication like APR bring the matter
forward for consideration....

Sadoff's point about the waning influence of marxist poets
like Neruda, and the subsequent rising interest in Rilke, is 
right, i think... and poets don't live in a vacuum or an ivory
tower, political and social events must affect our choices...
if Hilary Clinton must swerve right to survive or win, then
why not we poets also. . .

but i wonder if it's less a matter of the immediately
political than a longterm inherent dilemma: i defer to
Octavio Paz.  Here's some thoughts from "Children of the Mire":
"Poets reacted to the assault on Christianity by critical
philosophy by becoming the channels through which
the ancient religious spirit, Christian and pre-Christian,
was transmitted. . . .  More than once?with irritation
but not without true insight?Trotsky pointed out 
religious elements in the work of the majority of Russian
poets and writers of the [1920s]. . . . Trotsky's criticism
amounts to a condemnation of poetry. . . . [H]is criticism
of poetry . . . takes on the form of the criticism which
philosophy and science since the eighteenth century
have made of the religion, myths, magic, and other beliefs
of the past.   Neither philosophers nor revolutionaries can
patiently tolerate the ambivalence of poets. . . . Here lies
the basis of the misunderstanding between revolutionaries
and poets, which no one has been able to unravel.
If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . . The
opposition between the poetic and the revolutionary
spirit is part of a larger contradiction, that of the linear
time of the modern age as opposed to the rhythmic time
of the poem."  Etc etc (all this from Chapter 6, pages 104-onward)....

as much as i would like to second Sadoff and see some
reactionary backsliding, some political opportunism,
some resurgence of right-wing blahblahblah, i fear that
the phenomenon is cyclical, and Paz is again
apropos: "The history of modern poetry is that of the
oscillation between revolutionary temptation and religious
temptation."

can any of us resist the swing of the pendulum, and should
we even try?

but i applaud Sadoff for struggling with the question, for staking
a position in the debate (and it is a debate, a dilemma, despite
your glib dismissals). . . .

contra Eliot, the society of poetry needs more "free-thinking Jews" 
like Sadoff.....

.... knotthead






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From marcus  Thu Aug 11 15:48:37 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:48:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] His Flashing Eyes His Floating Hair
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <42FB7355.25014.10DCA77@localhost>

Found Poem: His Flashing Eyes His Floating Hair

When you stop for a red light
a good looking, nicely tanned, well-endowed, 
and completely nude young man 
walks up to your car and, 
muscles flexing and body stretching,
he washes your windshield. 

Another person opens the back door of your car 
And takes anything of value they can find.

They are very good at this. 
They got me seven times Tuesday 
and five times Wednesday. 

I couldn't find them yesterday.





From Rsgwynn1  Thu Aug 11 16:03:20 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:03:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
Message-ID: <1a2.3979050f.302d0908@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/11/2005 1:59:28 PM Central Daylight Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 
> 
> You know Bill, as someone who is even worse than a poetic "nothing
> nobody," I was personally intrigued by your post on this "spiritual"
> turn in poetry away from the "political." I read that Sadoff article and
> thought it was interesting, though a bit awkward in its arguments here
> and there.

Awkward is one thing, but putting the wrong Veronese in the wrong century is 
inexcusable.
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From clitophon  Thu Aug 11 16:04:18 2005
From: clitophon (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Siegs Tor
In-Reply-To: <42FB7355.25014.10DCA77@localhost>
Message-ID: <20050811200418.51244.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com>

Today was very uneventful, Munich has emptied because
August really is a holiday month for the Germans. 
Unlike the UK, most Germans are off in August and
heading off to the beach, which might mean Spain,
Italy or Greece.  I walked through the university
district, asking at shops and restaurants if anyone
wanted to buy my sketches, there was only one definite
expression of interest.  I walked into a gallery and
there was an old German woman, the owner, a man and an
aggressive and large dog which I initially had to
fight off because it was clearly interested in biting
my testacles off which it had mistaken for a large cat
or a rabbit.  The old woman couldn?t speak English or
German.  I handed her my web site address, ?we don?t
need it?she replied.  The Germans are very loathe to
buy from passing tradesmen, even to look at their
work, but the Italians, Spanish and Greeks are much
more open to this kind of approach.  Most things
operate through networks, friends, contacts in Germany
and their society has quite a cold, authoritarian,
unfriendly atmosphere about it.  I really felt like
telling the old German woman to stick it up her
ringpiece, I really did, and then giving the dog a
kick in the head but then I remembered decorum and
left.  She was like a forgettable piece of National
Socialist art, her dog lolling on the carpet, a
strangers testacles lodged in its putrid maw, the man
playing a game of pocket billiards as I struggled for
my next piece of bread.  The scene, a cartoon from the
fetid imagination of Georg Gro? or a singspiel from
the pen of Bert Brecht.

Then (after this intermittent bout of S & M) I went to
a cafe nr the Siegs Tor (Victory Gate, enscribed upon
it, ?for the Bavarian army?, the Bavarian army that
imploded somewhere nr Calais, circa 1944 or at the
Battle of the Bulge) and made sketches, first of the
Tor (victory in a chariot drawn by lions, what a
biting irony.  The great ticker tape Triumphal March
off the end of the pier.) and then of the fountain
across the Stra?e.  I thought to sell my sketch of the
Tor, I sold another sketch of the Brandenburg Tor in
Berlin.  After some causal enquiries, I left and
caught the U - Bahn to Goetheplatz.

www.theengine.net


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From Kent.Johnson  Thu Aug 11 16:06:02 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:06:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus's found poem
Message-ID: <s2fb6975.039@mail.highland.edu>

Hey, you know what I say?

If we lived in a culture where poets were decently compensated for
their labors, we wouldn't have to do this!

Kent

*

Found Poem: His Flashing Eyes His Floating Hair

When you stop for a red light
a good looking, nicely tanned, well-endowed, 
and completely nude young man 
walks up to your car and, 
muscles flexing and body stretching,
he washes your windshield. 

Another person opens the back door of your car 
And takes anything of value they can find.

They are very good at this. 
They got me seven times Tuesday 
and five times Wednesday. 

I couldn't find them yesterday.





From William_Knott  Thu Aug 11 16:09:37 2005
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:09:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B54@mail.emerson.edu>

...the debate is ongoing and worldwide, certainly....

just one example:
Hiroaki Sato in his introduction to "One Hundred Frogs: 
>From Tanka to Renga to Haiku"  rejects
the position of those Western devotees who look on the 
haiku as being inextricably bound to Zen Buddhism, 
who insist that the haiku can only be appreciated and 
understood (and practised)
within the context of Zen....


.....knotthead




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From Kent.Johnson  Thu Aug 11 16:17:19 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:17:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry in a time of war
Message-ID: <s2fb6c19.050@mail.highland.edu>

Has this been posted here yet?

Kent
*


Writing poetry was the balm that kept Guantanamo
prisoners from going mad
Former inmates say they wrote thousands of lines
- Thomas Coghlan, Chronicle Foreign Service
Sunday, July 17, 2005

Peshawar, Pakistan -- During three years in Guantanamo
Bay, Abdul Rahim Muslim Dost says that poetry kept him
from losing his sanity. By the time of his release
this spring, he had written more than 25,000 lines in
his Cuban prison cell.

During the first year of his imprisonment, the
44-year-old Afghan prisoner didn't even have paper or
a pen. Instead, he scratched lines of verse with his
fingernail into Styrofoam cups.

One poem reads: "Just as the heart beats in the
darkness of the body, so I, despite this cage,
continue to beat with life. Those who have no courage
or honor consider themselves free, but they are
slaves. I am flying on the wings of thought, and so,
even in this cage, I know a greater freedom."

"Poetry was our support and psychological uplift,"
said his brother and fellow Guantanamo inmate,
Badruzamman Badr, in an interview at the family home
in the Pakistani city of Peshawar, where they have
lived as expatriates since 1975. "Many people have
lost their minds there. I know 40 or 50 prisoners who
are mad. But we took refuge in our minds."

Dost was already a respected religious scholar, poet,
journalist and author of 19 published books before his
arrest about a month after the Sept. 11 attacks. His
prison writings would significantly increase that
number, he said.

Along with thousands of poems in his native Pashto, he
completed a book intended for future poets with an
alphabetical list of all the rhymes in the Pashto
language. He also wrote a book of Islamic
jurisprudence in verse form and translated Arabic
poetry into Pashto.

Both brothers deny that they ever supported al Qaeda.
They admit they felt initial enthusiasm for the
Taliban but say they became disillusioned with the
unworldly attitudes of the movement, particularly its
opposition to the education of women.

Instead, they say, their arrest by Pakistani
intelligence officers on Nov. 17, 2001, was an attempt
by their political enemies to frame them. Both are
proponents of Pashtun nationalism, a movement to
create an independent state for ethnic Pashtun tribes
on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border, and wrote
for three magazines that promoted the cause.

After their arrest, they were held for three months in
Peshawar, then transferred to U.S. custody at Bagram
Air Base outside Kabul and to a detention facility in
Kandahar, in southeastern Afghanistan, before being
flown to the U.S. Naval base lockup at Guantanamo Bay
on May 1, 2002.

U.S. authorities in Pakistan declined to comment about
the case, but Pakistan Embassy spokesman Zafar Ali
Khan said: "In late 2001, the Pakistani authorities
had good reason to be suspicious of them. The
authorities were receiving guidelines on people that
the Americans wished to question. Many Afghans who had
been involved in terrorist activities in Afghanistan
had moved to Peshawar at that time. These two men were
arrested and passed to the Americans. The U.S. has
subsequently questioned them and established during
the past three long years that they were, in fact,
innocent.''

So far, 234 suspected "enemy combatants" have been
freed from Guantanamo and 520 remain imprisoned, said
Maj. Susan Idziak, a spokesperson for the detention
facility.

Although Dost, who was freed in April, is happy to be
home with his wife and eight children, he frets about
the whereabouts of his poems. To date, he has received
about 2,500 lines from the U.S. military.

His concern that his poems and other writings may
never be returned is not surprising, since he took
particular pleasure in composing satirical verses at
the expense of his captors. In one 14-line poem, he
compared Guantanamo to the monotonous bowls of boiled
rice and black beans that made up the prison diet.

"He said that the food was like the prisoners. Black
and white, good and bad mixed up together without
distinction, without verification. It was expressed in
a very comic way," said his brother. "Many prisoners
learned this poem. We whispered the lines to each
other."

In another poem popular with his fellow prisoners, he
satirized what the prisoners saw as the sexless
appearance of their male and female guards. Short-
haired women and clean-shaven men in their identical
fatigues often seemed indistinguishable to Muslim
prisoners, used to men with long beards and fully
cloaked women, Badr said.

The last line of the poem read: "They may have weapons
and missiles, but we can find no sign of manhood in
this army."

U.S. Army linguists read all the poetry found in
Dost's cell, Badr said.

"In interrogation, the Americans often said to him,
'We understand the allusions in your poetry.' "

Capt. Jeffrey Weir, a Guantanamo spokesman, said he
could not comment on when Dost's writings would be
returned to him but said documents are subject to
"intelligence screening." Petty Officer Chris
Sherwood, a spokesman for Southern Command in Miami,
which oversees Guantanamo, said "inmates' mail is
translated, and any information considered sensitive
for security reasons is blacked out before it is
sent.''

Dost says he was interrogated more than 100 times at
Guantanamo but was never subjected to physical torture
in Cuba. Although he never witnessed desecration of
the Quran at Guantanamo, he said an Arab prisoner had
told him interrogators threw a Quran on the floor and
stepped on it.

Both brothers say they suffered harsher treatment at
detention facilities in Afghanistan, including
intimidation with dogs and sleep deprivation. There
and on three occasions, they say, they were
photographed naked and had their beards and hair
shaved. They also saw guards there kick the Quran.
Such treatment was in contrast to the latter stages of
their time in Guantanamo, when they say conditions
improved steadily.

"The Americans gave me books toward the end,'' said
Badr, who speaks English fluently. ''I read Ernest
Hemingway and Charles Dickens."

He added: "We don't hate the U.S. for being
Americans,'' he added. "Hating a nation for being a
nation is completely wrong. We criticize America if we
don't agree with their policies."

In his cell, Dost wrote thousands of lines in a strict
Pashto form of poetry somewhat similar to the sonnet:
14 lines of 14 syllables, rhyming alternately after an
opening couplet. A year after his imprisonment, when
the detainees began receiving paper and pencils from
the International Committee of the Red Cross, he was
able to accelerate his output.

Other prisoners also composed verse, he said,
including Mullah Abdul Salaam Zaeef, the former
Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, who destroyed all his
religious poetry before a room search by the prison
authorities, fearing it might be used in evidence
against him.

For the major Muslim feast of Eid last year, Dost
composed a poem written from the viewpoint of a child
of a Guantanamo inmate.

Part of it read: "Eid has come, but my father has not.
He is not come from Cuba. I am eating the bread of Eid
with my tears. I have nothing. Why am I deprived of
the love of my father? Why am I so oppressed?"

When he read it aloud, many of his fellow inmates
wept.

Yet as he received a steady stream of guests in the
library of his large Peshawar home, Dost was
surprisingly magnanimous about his experience in
Guantanamo.

"The positives have outweighed the negatives," he
said. "I was not unhappy for being detained because I
learned a lot. I wrote from the core of my heart in
Guantanamo Bay. In the outside world I could not have
written such things."

Page A - 20
URL:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/17/MNGKQDPCV51.DTL


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 




From William_Knott  Thu Aug 11 16:23:10 2005
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:23:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B55@mail.emerson.edu>

here's Yeats lamenting the necessity of dressing up in those
old rags:

"How can the arts overcome the slow dying of men's hearts 
that we call the progress of the world, and lay their hands upon 
men's heart-strings again, without becoming the garment of 
religion as in old times?"?

yes, how can we poets reach our US contemporaries most of whom
(the pollsters tell us) believe Jesus Christ is their personal
savior and Darwin is the Devil, how can we lay our hands
on those heartstrings without cloaking ourselves in that 
pious vest?

wish i knew....


....knotthead
 



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From Kent.Johnson  Thu Aug 11 16:22:45 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:22:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sato
Message-ID: <s2fb6d67.054@mail.highland.edu>

Hey Sato is great. I met him in Providence a few months ago. I'm editing
this big section of international poetry for a new magazine, and Sato
has contributed some great new translations. His One Hundred Frogs is
really fun, too. 

A great book , too, is Makoto Ueda's Modern Japanese Haiku, though now
probably out of print. 

Kent



From elemenope  Thu Aug 11 16:30:27 2005
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:30:27 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Berhle message to list (JforJames@aol.com)
In-Reply-To: <200508111600.j7BG04HC027033@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200508111600.j7BG04HC027033@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100303bf21639cea80@[204.215.201.2]>

The only thing that isn't dated in Kent's RadLib propaganda is its 
perennial self satisfied delusion.  He's as deluded as David Gregory, 
the handsome NBC hack, or this self contradictory Sadoff.  And I 
don't want to even get my head around his insulting title.  Let it 
speak for itself.  Abu G is Auschwitz?  Creepy fly-fingered 
manipulation.  We don't even know who this "Kent Johnson" is yet he 
claims some sort of public moral suasion of the status of WBY.  Gag 
him with an Oprah, that milquetoast Satanic fiend, according to the 
Marquise of Sadoff.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n



-- 



From robin.hamilton2  Thu Aug 11 16:46:39 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:46:39 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Berhle message to list (JforJames@aol.com)
References: <200508111600.j7BG04HC027033@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100303bf21639cea80@[204.215.201.2]>
Message-ID: <005f01c59eb5$c712bb90$d3309b51@Robin>

Richard Dillon said:

> Abu G is Auschwitz?  

They are, obviously, orders of magnitude different.

But they're both evil.

You can't excuse one by appealing to the other.

Robin






From William_Knott  Thu Aug 11 16:48:15 2005
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:48:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] sadoff
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B56@mail.emerson.edu>

aw i'm probably just jealous cause APR won't print my 
staid polemics nor my stale poems....

....knotthead



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From anny.ballardini  Thu Aug 11 17:03:30 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:03:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
References: <1a2.3979050f.302d0908@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c59eb8$21954950$ddeb3652@ANNY>



Yes, I also got tricked, even if I do know the painting:
BONIFACIO VERONESE
Dives and Lazarus
1540-50
Oil on canvas, 204 x 436 cm
Gallerie dell'Accademia, Venice

the century is not mistaken, Paolo Veronese was born in 1528 and died in 1588. As far as the Inquisition is involved, we still had trials up till the beginning of the XXth century here in the north. And officially started in-between 1545 to 1563, this the length of the Council of Trient that promoted it:
http://www.cronologia.it/storia/aa1545a.htm
but the Luterans had already put the Christians in a state of anguish since long.

One more thing, Bonifacio's beggar might be _fat_ and off in the corner, he is anyhow the most beautiful character in the painting, graceful his begging. The dog is not sniffing but licking, probably his sweat. 

Now I feel better, and thank you for pointing it out.

  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:03 PM


  In a message dated 8/11/2005 1:59:28 PM Central Daylight Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 


    You know Bill, as someone who is even worse than a poetic "nothing
    nobody," I was personally intrigued by your post on this "spiritual"
    turn in poetry away from the "political." I read that Sadoff article and
    thought it was interesting, though a bit awkward in its arguments here
    and there.


  Awkward is one thing, but putting the wrong Veronese in the wrong century is inexcusable. 


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From Rsgwynn1  Thu Aug 11 17:25:52 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:25:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
Message-ID: <76.591f0b9a.302d1c60@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/11/2005 4:03:58 PM Central Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 
>  
>  Yes, I also got tricked, even if I do know the painting:
>  BONIFACIO VERONESE
> Dives and Lazarus
> 1540-50
> Oil on canvas, 204 x 436 cm
> Gallerie dell'Accademia, Venice
> 
> the century is not mistaken, Paolo Veronese was born in 1528 and died in 
> 1588. As far as the Inquisition is involved, we still had trials up till the 
> beginning of the XXth century here in the north. And officially started 
> in-between 1545 to 1563, this the length of the Council of Trient that promoted it:
>  http://www.cronologia.it/storia/aa1545a.htm
>  but the Luterans had already put the Christians in a state of anguish since 
> long.
>   
>  One more thing, Bonifacio's beggar might be _fat_ and off in the corner, he 
> is anyhow the most beautiful character in the painting, graceful his 
> begging. The dog is not sniffing but licking, probably his sweat. 
>  
>  Now I feel better, and thank you for pointing it out.
> 

In this painting, the fires of hell beckon in the upper right-hand corner, an 
indication of what's waiting for "Dives," as he's commonly known, and anyone 
who knows the parable knows that Dives's punishment is one of the most severe 
meted out to any sinner.  Abraham won't even send Lazarus to warn his five 
brothers about what awaits them!

The dog is licking Lazarus's sores, according to Luke's gospel.  

Sadoff did say that the subject is transposed "from the time of Christ to the 
Eighteenth Century," didn't he?  

According to the Britannica, the right Veronese (Paolo) was called before the 
Inquisition for putting dwarves and fools in one of his religious paintings 
and that his artistic reasons for having done so were acceptable to his 
interrogators.
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From anny.ballardini  Thu Aug 11 18:28:17 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:28:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
References: <76.591f0b9a.302d1c60@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c59ec3$f9003980$ddeb3652@ANNY>

Ok, the 18th century brought me to Tiepolo. Now I understand also my reaction. But I did not add one plus one (that he was referring the 18th century to Veronese). I said _sweat_ because the sores are not visible, as a reaction to the original text that said that the _dog was sniffing_ when it is visibly licking.
And also thank you for the precise information on all details.

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  Cc: willbj at juno.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 11:25 PM




  In this painting, the fires of hell beckon in the upper right-hand corner, an indication of what's waiting for "Dives," as he's commonly known, and anyone who knows the parable knows that Dives's punishment is one of the most severe meted out to any sinner.  Abraham won't even send Lazarus to warn his five brothers about what awaits them!

  The dog is licking Lazarus's sores, according to Luke's gospel.  

  Sadoff did say that the subject is transposed "from the time of Christ to the Eighteenth Century," didn't he?  

  According to the Britannica, the right Veronese (Paolo) was called before the Inquisition for putting dwarves and fools in one of his religious paintings and that his artistic reasons for having done so were acceptable to his interrogators. 


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From Rsgwynn1  Thu Aug 11 18:33:02 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:33:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
Message-ID: <8a.2cc5f83b.302d2c1e@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/11/2005 5:28:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 
> 
> Ok, the 18th century brought me to Tiepolo. Now I understand also my 
> reaction. But I did not add one plus one (that he was referring the 18th century to 
> Veronese). I said _sweat_ because the sores are not visible, as a reaction to 
> the original text that said that the _dog was sniffing_ when it is visibly 
> licking.
>  And also thank you for the precise information on all details.
>   
> 
I'd love to see a good reproduction of this painting.  The ones that are 
available on the web aren't very clear, and it's hard to figure out that 
mysterious fire at top right (though I assume it prefigures what Dives is going to get 
as his just reward).  If you ever take a close look at the original, tell me 
what you see.
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From anny.ballardini  Thu Aug 11 18:53:00 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:53:00 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
References: <8a.2cc5f83b.302d2c1e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00dd01c59ec7$6d51b900$ddeb3652@ANNY>

I keep on postponing my visit to Venice. I was at the Gallerie dell'Accademia, my visual memory cannot work that well. Hopefully I will get there soon, and I will let you know. And funny thing, the only image I could remember well was _the beggar_ that is also why I was so stirred by the article.
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:33 AM



  I'd love to see a good reproduction of this painting.  The ones that are available on the web aren't very clear, and it's hard to figure out that mysterious fire at top right (though I assume it prefigures what Dives is going to get as his just reward).  If you ever take a close look at the original, tell me what you see. 


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From mandolin  Thu Aug 11 23:22:38 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:22:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Berhle message to list (JforJames@aol.com)
In-Reply-To: <005f01c59eb5$c712bb90$d3309b51@Robin>
References: <200508111600.j7BG04HC027033@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100303bf21639cea80@[204.215.201.2]>
	<005f01c59eb5$c712bb90$d3309b51@Robin>
Message-ID: <ED8A1B78-A14B-40B5-801E-83692F380936@mac.com>


On Aug 11, 2005, at 16:46 , Robin Hamilton wrote:

> Richard Dillon said:
>
>
>> Abu G is Auschwitz?
>>
>
> They are, obviously, orders of magnitude different.
>
> But they're both evil.
>
> You can't excuse one by appealing to the other.

You're right, of course. But claiming or implying equivalence between  
the two is ludicrous and, it seems to me, shameful.

Mike S.




From elemenope  Thu Aug 11 23:51:01 2005
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:51:01 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] 15. Re: Berhle message to list (JforJames@aol.com)
 (Robin Hamilton)
In-Reply-To: <200508112231.j7BMV0HC001244@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200508112231.j7BMV0HC001244@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bf21caa2768a@[204.215.201.2]>

You intrude in matters in order to buck up your own ego.

As to your assertion: prove it.  You won't because if you bother to 
set out the evidence you'll make a fool of yourself.  But, then, 
again, you can as usual apologize. <g>

A mugging is evil, like what you did when you made promises in public 
while never intending to fulfill them, but even your perfidies [You 
want the e-mails recirculated, Bloke?] are inconsequential in 
comparison to the Holocaust, as is Abu G.  "Kent Johnson's" 
conflations are jejeune propaganda of the most rank sort.

Take a swig and think again.  If you can remember what you said 
yesterday.  Whenever that was.
>
>>
>>Message: 15
>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:46:39 +0100
>>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Berhle message to list (JforJames at aol.com)
>>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;	Views"
>>	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Message-ID: <005f01c59eb5$c712bb90$d3309b51 at Robin>
>>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>Richard Dillon said:
>>
>>>  Abu G is Auschwitz? 
>>
>>They are, obviously, orders of magnitude different.
>>
>>But they're both evil.
>>
>>You can't excuse one by appealing to the other.
>>
>Robin



-- 



From kpaul  Fri Aug 12 01:17:12 2005
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:17:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] matt dillon as bukowski?
In-Reply-To: <129.62c91ecc.302ca96b@aol.com>
References: <129.62c91ecc.302ca96b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20050812001640.Q85760@kpaul.spinweb.net>

sorry if this has been mentioned in between banter and bouts:

http://media.filmweb.no/trailere/sf/SFN20050131/vkjdgdp12.mov

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/




From gmguddi  Fri Aug 12 01:23:56 2005
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:23:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] war and religion
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B54@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B54@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <20050812002356.c66csfdwnqck08k0@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Not having read Sadoff's essay, I do wonder what the contradiction is: warfare
and religion have gone hand in hand for centuries. The US is the most
religiously homogenous nation on the face of the earth, with 85% of its
citizens self-identified "Christians," which is even more homogenous than
Israel's 78% self-identifying as Jews. As such, there is nothing unusual about
the fact that the US and Israel are profoundly bellicose. Or that a time of
extreme bellicosity should be matched by a hyper-religious tenor.

Religiosity and bellicosity are, culturally speaking, synonymous, practically
speaking. Aren't they?

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.





From david.bircumshaw  Fri Aug 12 01:53:12 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:53:12 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality
References: <s2fb59ae.079@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <000701c59f02$20c4b340$1be8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Kent wrote:

> I would say that for poetry today, in this time of poetry's stunning
> (this is how I see it) impotence and silence before the current horrors,
> that it's not a matter of Spirituality vs. the Political (or
> revolutionary, as Paz has it). It's a matter of vapid Spiritual poetry
> and simplistic Political poetry vs. complexly Spiritual Revolutionary
> poetry.

It's a winsome thought, Kent, though I can't say I feel confident that the
climate in American or British contemporary poetry is particularly
favourable, perhaps languages and cultures other than English may be,
perhaps.

> Not that I have the slightest idea what the latter would be, but it's
> worth starting to poke at the dark creature and see if it might stir!
>

Aye to that, sir, indeed!

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:58 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] politics and spirituality


>




From david.bircumshaw  Fri Aug 12 02:15:23 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:15:23 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] war and religion
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B54@mail.emerson.edu>
	<20050812002356.c66csfdwnqck08k0@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <000d01c59f05$3a1a4460$1be8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> Religiosity and bellicosity are, culturally speaking, synonymous,
practically
> speaking. Aren't they?
>
Well, no. They +can be+, yes, but not necessarily. To use obvious examples,
it would be very difficult to claim that either of the two World Wars were
religiously motivated, anymore than one could claim that the Falklands War,
the Hundred Years War, the War of American Independance, the Opium Wars, the
Wars of the Roses etc were. Of course, there are wars that have a direct
corelation with religions: the Crusades or the Thirty Years War for
instance, but these too demonstrate that war derives from a whole complex of
cultural and societal sources, of which religion +can+ be one (so too can be
football matches, as once, famously, in Central America)

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:23 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] war and religion


> Not having read Sadoff's essay, I do wonder what the contradiction is:
warfare
> and religion have gone hand in hand for centuries. The US is the most
> religiously homogenous nation on the face of the earth, with 85% of its
> citizens self-identified "Christians," which is even more homogenous than
> Israel's 78% self-identifying as Jews. As such, there is nothing unusual
about
> the fact that the US and Israel are profoundly bellicose. Or that a time
of
> extreme bellicosity should be matched by a hyper-religious tenor.
>
> Religiosity and bellicosity are, culturally speaking, synonymous,
practically
> speaking. Aren't they?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From kpaul  Fri Aug 12 02:16:17 2005
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:16:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] matt dillon as bukowski?
In-Reply-To: <20050812001640.Q85760@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <129.62c91ecc.302ca96b@aol.com>
	<20050812001640.Q85760@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <20050812010852.M85760@kpaul.spinweb.net>

the trash can
this is great, I just wrote two
poems I didn't like.

there is a trash can on this
computer.
I just moved the poems
over
and dropped them into
the trash can.

they're gone forever, no
paper, no sound, no
fury, no placenta
and then
just a clean screen
awaits you.

it's always better
to reject yourself before
the editors do.

especially on a rainy
night like this with
bad music on the radio.

and now--
I know what you're
thinking:
maybe he should have
trashed this
misbegotten one
also.

ha, ha, ha,
ha.

--------------------------

upon reading a critical review
it's difficult to accept
and you look around the room
for the person they are talking
about.

he's not there
he's not here.
he's gone.

by the time they get your book you
are no longer your
book.
you are on the next page,
the next
book.

and worse,
they don't even get the old books right.
you are given credit for things you don't
deserve, for insights that aren't
there.

people read themselves into books, altering
what thay need and discarding what they
don't.

good critics are as rare as good
writers.
and whether I get a good review or a
bad one
I take neither
seriously.

I am on the next page.
the next book.


-----------------------------------

to the whore who took my poems
some say we should keep personal remorse from the
poem,
stay abstract, and there is some reason in this,
but jezus;
twelve poems gone and I don't keep carbons and you have
my
paintings too, my best ones; it's stifling:
are you trying to crush me out like the rest of them?
why didn't you take my money? they usually do
from the sleeping drunken pants sick in the corner.
next time take my left arm or a fifty
but not my poems;
I'm not Shakespeare
but sometime simply
there won't be any more, abstract or otherwise;
there'll always be money and whores and drunkards
down to the last bomb,
but as God said,
crossing his legs,
I see where I have made plenty of poets
but not so very much

=====================================

THE ALIENS
from The Last Night Of The Earth Poems

you may not believe it
but there are people
who go through life with
very little
friction of distress.
they dress well, sleep well.
they are contented with
their family
life.
they are undisturbed
and often feel
very good.
and when they die
it is an easy death, usually in their
sleep.

you may not believe
it
but such people do
exist.

but i am not one of
them.
oh no, I am not one of them,
I am not even near
to being
one of
them.
but they
are there

and I am
here.




On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, kpaul mallasch wrote:

> sorry if this has been mentioned in between banter and bouts:
>
> http://media.filmweb.no/trailere/sf/SFN20050131/vkjdgdp12.mov
>
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From tad  Fri Aug 12 09:56:22 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:56:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch Your Language
Message-ID: <006201c59f45$a2520050$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

 
Watch your language

UK station cancels Keillor feature over questionable content

By Jamie Gumbrecht

HERALD-LEADER CULTURE WRITER


A few weeks after The Boston Globe called The Writer's Almanac radio program "a confection of poetry and history wrapped in the down comforter voice of producer and host Garrison Keillor," WUKY-91.3 FM canceled the daily featurette for what it considered offensive content.

The five-minute segments aired on the University of Kentucky's public radio station at 11 a.m. until Aug. 1. It opened with soft piano music and the voice of A Prairie Home Companion's Keillor remembering major moments in writing history. It was a break for history between news broadcasts and pop music, each day ending with a poem and the wish to "be well, do good work and keep in touch."

But in a time of Federal Communications Commission crackdowns on radio content, WUKY officials say, the poems Keillor read were too risque for airplay.

"I don't question the artistic merit, but I have to question the language," WUKY General Manager Tom Godell said. "It's not that he's behaving like Howard Stern, but the FCC has been so inconsistent, we don't know where we stand. We could no longer risk a fine."

Reaction to the cancellation has been minimal so far, Godell said. WUKY managers decided to stop carrying the Almanac after a recent spate of language advisories, although they were tracking the content for about a year, Godell said.

The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came about Curse of the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained violent themes and the word "breast"; Thinking About the Past by Donald Justice, which also used the word "breast"; and Reunion by Amber Coverdale, which contained the phrase "get high." The poems were scheduled for broadcast between July 23 and Aug. 12.

WUKY never heard complaints about The Writer's Almanac because the station always edited potentially offensive language, Godell said. Prairie Home Productions and American Public Media, the segment's producer and distributor, do not edit or select the content.

"It's not a terrible burden to edit, but my concern is that something slips through," Godell said. "We have certain standards of decency, and I expect our national producers to do the same thing."

The station vigilantly checks song lyrics for offensive content, Godell said, and broadcasts with language advisories are carefully considered. If offensive language clarifies a story, it will be broadcast, especially when listeners can be warned first. But an FCC sanction would be an embarrassment to the station and the university, Godell said.

Keillor, who will perform Feb. 21 at Centre College's Norton Center for the Arts, said in an e-mail that stations are within their rights to cancel the Almanac but he's proud of the poems he reads.

"There isn't one of them I would hesitate to offer to any high school English class," Keillor wrote. "The fact that someone is troubled by hearing the word 'breast' is interesting, but what are we supposed to do with A Visit From St. Nicholas and the 'breast of the new fallen snow'? Should it become a shoulder or an elbow? I don't think so."

Public broadcasters have long had to edit gratuitous language, but meaningful language is worth a fight, said O. Leonard Press, the retired founding director of Kentucky Educational Television. If stations censor themselves, they might as well become jukeboxes, he said.

"The purpose of public broadcasting is not to be safe, but to be useful, good, to give people something to think about, something to grow on," Press said. "Survival is not more important than being useful."

Press, an ardent fan of Keillor's writing and performing, called the cancellation an overreaction.

"If Garrison Keillor is less desirable on the airwaves than Desperate Housewives," he said, "we've gone a far piece."

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From hruggier  Fri Aug 12 10:05:30 2005
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:05:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B55@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <00ca01c59f46$e6d80110$090c9942@Helen>

Well, in Buffalo, a woman found Christ's picture on a pirogi and she's 
auctioning it on e-bay.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion


here's Yeats lamenting the necessity of dressing up in those
old rags:

"How can the arts overcome the slow dying of men's hearts
that we call the progress of the world, and lay their hands upon
men's heart-strings again, without becoming the garment of
religion as in old times?"

yes, how can we poets reach our US contemporaries most of whom
(the pollsters tell us) believe Jesus Christ is their personal
savior and Darwin is the Devil, how can we lay our hands
on those heartstrings without cloaking ourselves in that
pious vest?

wish i knew....


....knotthead







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


--------------------------------------------
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From halvard  Fri Aug 12 10:10:05 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:10:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] war and religion
In-Reply-To: <20050812002356.c66csfdwnqck08k0@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B54@mail.emerson.edu>
	<20050812002356.c66csfdwnqck08k0@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <0dd512d01a16feae03a13cdd2825bc92@earthlink.net>


On Aug 12, 2005, at 1:23 AM, gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:
>
> Religiosity and bellicosity are, culturally speaking, synonymous, 
> practically
> speaking. Aren't they?

I think that if you substituted "humanity" for "religiosity" here
you'd be right on target, Gabe.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From halvard  Fri Aug 12 10:17:44 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:17:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch Your Language
In-Reply-To: <006201c59f45$a2520050$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <006201c59f45$a2520050$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <21b5e7be086140e998a740d379a97112@earthlink.net>

Looks like reading Kilmer's "Trees" would have been
enough for WUKY to dump GK (not that I have anything
against dumping GK, as Jerry Seinfield might say).


On Aug 12, 2005, at 9:56 AM, The Old Mole wrote:

> ?
> A few weeks after The Boston Globe called The Writer's Almanac radio 
> program "a confection of poetry and history wrapped in the down 
> comforter voice of producer and host Garrison Keillor," WUKY-91.3 FM 
> canceled the daily featurette for what it considered offensive 
> content.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/





From anny.ballardini  Fri Aug 12 10:21:43 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:21:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch Your Language
References: <006201c59f45$a2520050$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <007601c59f49$2a251730$92ae3252@ANNY>

?

I do feel stunned. Way ago I wanted to found _Perplex Art_ this could be the opening piece of the possible Puzzle.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
Non serviam. Ni dieu ni ma?tre.

  From: The Old Mole 
  Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 3:56 PM


    
  Watch your language

  UK station cancels Keillor feature over questionable content

  By Jamie Gumbrecht

  HERALD-LEADER CULTURE WRITER


  A few weeks after The Boston Globe called The Writer's Almanac radio program "a confection of poetry and history wrapped in the down comforter voice of producer and host Garrison Keillor," WUKY-91.3 FM canceled the daily featurette for what it considered offensive content.

  The five-minute segments aired on the University of Kentucky's public radio station at 11 a.m. until Aug. 1. It opened with soft piano music and the voice of A Prairie Home Companion's Keillor remembering major moments in writing history. It was a break for history between news broadcasts and pop music, each day ending with a poem and the wish to "be well, do good work and keep in touch."

  But in a time of Federal Communications Commission crackdowns on radio content, WUKY officials say, the poems Keillor read were too risque for airplay.

  "I don't question the artistic merit, but I have to question the language," WUKY General Manager Tom Godell said. "It's not that he's behaving like Howard Stern, but the FCC has been so inconsistent, we don't know where we stand. We could no longer risk a fine."

  Reaction to the cancellation has been minimal so far, Godell said. WUKY managers decided to stop carrying the Almanac after a recent spate of language advisories, although they were tracking the content for about a year, Godell said.

  The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came about Curse of the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained violent themes and the word "breast"; Thinking About the Past by Donald Justice, which also used the word "breast"; and Reunion by Amber Coverdale, which contained the phrase "get high." The poems were scheduled for broadcast between July 23 and Aug. 12.

  WUKY never heard complaints about The Writer's Almanac because the station always edited potentially offensive language, Godell said. Prairie Home Productions and American Public Media, the segment's producer and distributor, do not edit or select the content.

  "It's not a terrible burden to edit, but my concern is that something slips through," Godell said. "We have certain standards of decency, and I expect our national producers to do the same thing."

  The station vigilantly checks song lyrics for offensive content, Godell said, and broadcasts with language advisories are carefully considered. If offensive language clarifies a story, it will be broadcast, especially when listeners can be warned first. But an FCC sanction would be an embarrassment to the station and the university, Godell said.

  Keillor, who will perform Feb. 21 at Centre College's Norton Center for the Arts, said in an e-mail that stations are within their rights to cancel the Almanac but he's proud of the poems he reads.

  "There isn't one of them I would hesitate to offer to any high school English class," Keillor wrote. "The fact that someone is troubled by hearing the word 'breast' is interesting, but what are we supposed to do with A Visit >From St. Nicholas and the 'breast of the new fallen snow'? Should it become a shoulder or an elbow? I don't think so."

  Public broadcasters have long had to edit gratuitous language, but meaningful language is worth a fight, said O. Leonard Press, the retired founding director of Kentucky Educational Television. If stations censor themselves, they might as well become jukeboxes, he said.

  "The purpose of public broadcasting is not to be safe, but to be useful, good, to give people something to think about, something to grow on," Press said. "Survival is not more important than being useful."

  Press, an ardent fan of Keillor's writing and performing, called the cancellation an overreaction.

  "If Garrison Keillor is less desirable on the airwaves than Desperate Housewives," he said, "we've gone a far piece."

  Tad Richards
  www.opus40.org
  http://opusforty.blogspot.com/


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From cervantes.james  Fri Aug 12 11:15:40 2005
From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:15:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Salt River Review
Message-ID: <648208b605081208157e27c607@mail.gmail.com>

Due to various technical difficulties and an unannounced server
change, the Winter, 2004-05  issue of The Salt River Review was
unavailable between February 1 and August 8th, 2005 but it is now back
online.  Other technical difficulties resulted in a loss of
submissions for forthcoming issues and we are now seeking quality work
for a special fall issue.  Guidelines are available at the site:

Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org




From paul.lake  Fri Aug 12 05:02:47 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:02:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch Your Language
In-Reply-To: <21b5e7be086140e998a740d379a97112@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BF21CFE7.9C81%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/12/05 9:17 AM, "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Looks like reading Kilmer's "Trees" would have been
> enough for WUKY to dump GK (not that I have anything
> against dumping GK, as Jerry Seinfield might say).
> 
> 
> On Aug 12, 2005, at 9:56 AM, The Old Mole wrote:
> 
>> ?
>> A few weeks after The Boston Globe called The Writer's Almanac radio
>> program "a confection of poetry and history wrapped in the down
>> comforter voice of producer and host Garrison Keillor," WUKY-91.3 FM
>> canceled the daily featurette for what it considered offensive
>> content.
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
What were the offensive poems? Inquiring minds want to know.





From paul.lake  Fri Aug 12 05:13:10 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:13:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch Your Language
In-Reply-To: <006201c59f45$a2520050$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BF21D256.9C83%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/12/05 8:56 AM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

>  
> Watch your language
> 
> UK station cancels Keillor feature over questionable content
> 
> By Jamie Gumbrecht
> 
> HERALD-LEADER CULTURE WRITER
> 
> 
> A few weeks after The Boston Globe called The Writer's Almanac radio program
> "a confection of poetry and history wrapped in the down comforter voice of
> producer and host Garrison Keillor," WUKY-91.3 FM canceled the daily
> featurette for what it considered offensive content.
> 
> The five-minute segments aired on the University of Kentucky's public radio
> station at 11 a.m. until Aug. 1. It opened with soft piano music and the voice
> of A Prairie Home Companion's Keillor remembering major moments in writing
> history. It was a break for history between news broadcasts and pop music,
> each day ending with a poem and the wish to "be well, do good work and keep in
> touch."
> 
> But in a time of Federal Communications Commission crackdowns on radio
> content, WUKY officials say, the poems Keillor read were too risque for
> airplay.
> 
> "I don't question the artistic merit, but I have to question the language,"
> WUKY General Manager Tom Godell said. "It's not that he's behaving like Howard
> Stern, but the FCC has been so inconsistent, we don't know where we stand. We
> could no longer risk a fine."
> 
> Reaction to the cancellation has been minimal so far, Godell said. WUKY
> managers decided to stop carrying the Almanac after a recent spate of language
> advisories, although they were tracking the content for about a year, Godell
> said.
> 
> The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came about Curse of
> the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained violent themes and the word
> "breast"; Thinking About the Past by Donald Justice, which also used the word
> "breast"; and Reunion by Amber Coverdale, which contained the phrase "get
> high." The poems were scheduled for broadcast between July 23 and Aug. 12.
> 
> WUKY never heard complaints about The Writer's Almanac because the station
> always edited potentially offensive language, Godell said. Prairie Home
> Productions and American Public Media, the segment's producer and distributor,
> do not edit or select the content.
> 
> "It's not a terrible burden to edit, but my concern is that something slips
> through," Godell said. "We have certain standards of decency, and I expect our
> national producers to do the same thing."
> 
> The station vigilantly checks song lyrics for offensive content, Godell said,
> and broadcasts with language advisories are carefully considered. If offensive
> language clarifies a story, it will be broadcast, especially when listeners
> can be warned first. But an FCC sanction would be an embarrassment to the
> station and the university, Godell said.
> 
> Keillor, who will perform Feb. 21 at Centre College's Norton Center for the
> Arts, said in an e-mail that stations are within their rights to cancel the
> Almanac but he's proud of the poems he reads.
> 
> "There isn't one of them I would hesitate to offer to any high school English
> class," Keillor wrote. "The fact that someone is troubled by hearing the word
> 'breast' is interesting, but what are we supposed to do with A Visit >From St.
> Nicholas and the 'breast of the new fallen snow'? Should it become a shoulder
> or an elbow? I don't think so."
> 
> Public broadcasters have long had to edit gratuitous language, but meaningful
> language is worth a fight, said O. Leonard Press, the retired founding
> director of Kentucky Educational Television. If stations censor themselves,
> they might as well become jukeboxes, he said.
> 
> "The purpose of public broadcasting is not to be safe, but to be useful, good,
> to give people something to think about, something to grow on," Press said.
> "Survival is not more important than being useful."
> 
> Press, an ardent fan of Keillor's writing and performing, called the
> cancellation an overreaction.
> 
> "If Garrison Keillor is less desirable on the airwaves than Desperate
> Housewives," he said, "we've gone a far piece."
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Oh, my God! Not the word ?breast?! No wonder they cancelled the poetry. They
should have followed Steve Martin?s lead and called those things by their
proper name: Hooters. Then at least they could claim the poems were about
owls.
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From grahamd  Fri Aug 12 12:20:42 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:20:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language
In-Reply-To: <006201c59f45$a2520050$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BF223689.1374C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 8/12/05 8:56 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came about Curse
of the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained violent themes and the
word "breast"; Thinking About the Past by Donald Justice, which also used
the word "breast"; and Reunion by Amber Coverdale, which contained the
phrase "get high." The poems were scheduled for broadcast between July 23
and Aug. 12. 
==============================



Wow, and wow.  Somebody quick notify August Kleinzahler that Keillor's gone
over the top and begun heeding his call for poetry  that is "all about
excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk."

Now let's all send to the station manager of WUKY-91.3 FM poems by radicals
like Wordsworth that employ the word "breast,"  shall we?

Here's the offending poem by Edward Field, by the way.  Cover your eyes,
kids!



Curse Of The Cat Woman

It sometimes happens
that the woman you meet and fall in love with
is of that strange Transylvanian people
with an affinity for cats.

You take her to a restaurant, say, or a show,
on an ordinary date, being attracted
by the glitter in her slitty eyes and her catlike walk,
and afterwards of course you take her in your arms
and she turns into a black panther
and bites you to death.

Or perhaps you are saved in the nick of time
and she is tormented by the knowledge of her tendency:
That she daren't hug a man
unless she wants to risk clawing him up.

This puts you both in a difficult position? panting lovers who are prevented
from touching 
not by bars but by circumstance:
You have terrible fights and say cruel things
for having the hots does not give you a sweet temper.

One night you are walking down a dark street
And hear the pad-pad of a panther following you,
but when you turn around there are only shadows,
or perhaps one shadow too many.

You approach, calling, "Who's there?"
and it leaps on you.
Luckily you have brought along your sword
and you stab it to death.

And before your eyes it turns into the woman you love,
her breast impaled on your sword,
her mouth dribbling blood saying she loved you
but couldn't help her tendency.

So death released her from the curse at last,
and you knew from the angelic smile on her dead face
that in spite of a life the devil owned,
love had won, and heaven pardoned her.

--Edward Field, from Counting Myself Lucky. ? David R. Godine.





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From grahamd  Fri Aug 12 12:42:12 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:42:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The breast of Mary something...
In-Reply-To: <BF223689.1374C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BF223B94.13756%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Yet another offending poem mentioned in the article is this hot number:

Thinking about the Past

Certain moments will never change nor stop being--
My mother's face all smiles, all wrinkles soon;
The rock wall building, built, collapsed then, fallen;
Our upright loosening downward slowly out of tune--
All fixed into place now, all rhyming with each other.
That red-haired girl with wide mouth-Eleanor--
Forgotten thirty years-her freckled shoulders, hands.
The breast of Mary Something, freed from a white swimsuit,
Damp, sandy, warm; or Margery's, a small, caught bird-
Darkness they rise from, darkness they sink back toward.
And Kenny in wartime whites, crisp, cocky,
Time a bow bent with his certain failure.
Dusks, dawns; waves; the ends of songs . . .

--Donald Justice
----------------------------

School of Quietude my ass!  Donald Justice rocks!  (Note the word "cocky,"
also. . . .)

Someone please tell me that this news story is really just a hoax. . . .


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From grahamd  Fri Aug 12 13:07:54 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:07:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: PHILIP WHALEN COLLECTED
In-Reply-To: <20050811145236.4275.qmail@web52214.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BF224199.1375C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

>From a friend.  This may be of interest to some.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



> From: "Michael Rothenberg" <walterblue at earthlink.net>
> Subject: PHILIP WHALEN COLLECTED
> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 22:39:01 -0400
> 
> Dear Everyone,
> I am working on the Complete Collected poems of Philip Whalen and nearly done
> with the job. I would appreciate it if any of you, or your friends, have
> poems by Philip Whalen from small magazines, mimeos, letters, that you think
> have never been published, please let me know by e-mail, and send me a photo
> copy at: Michael Rothenberg, 1914 Pierce St., Hollywood, FL 33020. I would
> appreciate any help you can give.
> 
> Best regards, 
> Michael
> 
> Michael Rothenberg
> walterblue at bigbridge.org
> Big Bridge
> www.bigbridge.org





From anny.ballardini  Fri Aug 12 13:20:47 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:20:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language
References: <BF223689.1374C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00e301c59f62$2df72470$92ae3252@ANNY>

Re: Watch Your LanguageReferring to:
Now let's all send to the station manager of WUKY-91.3 FM poems by radicals like Wordsworth that employ the word "breast,"  shall we?


I agree,
I will send Mark Halliday's Skirt!
  From: David Graham 
  Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:20 PM


  on 8/12/05 8:56 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

  The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came about Curse of the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained violent themes and the word "breast"; Thinking About the Past by Donald Justice, which also used the word "breast"; and Reunion by Amber Coverdale, which contained the phrase "get high." The poems were scheduled for broadcast between July 23 and Aug. 12. 
  ==============================



  Wow, and wow.  Somebody quick notify August Kleinzahler that Keillor's gone over the top and begun heeding his call for poetry  that is "all about excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk."

  Now let's all send to the station manager of WUKY-91.3 FM poems by radicals like Wordsworth that employ the word "breast,"  shall we?

  Here's the offending poem by Edward Field, by the way.  Cover your eyes, kids!



  Curse Of The Cat Woman 

  It sometimes happens 
  that the woman you meet and fall in love with 
  is of that strange Transylvanian people 
  with an affinity for cats. 

  You take her to a restaurant, say, or a show, 
  on an ordinary date, being attracted 
  by the glitter in her slitty eyes and her catlike walk, 
  and afterwards of course you take her in your arms 
  and she turns into a black panther 
  and bites you to death. 

  Or perhaps you are saved in the nick of time 
  and she is tormented by the knowledge of her tendency: 
  That she daren't hug a man 
  unless she wants to risk clawing him up. 

  This puts you both in a difficult position< panting lovers who are prevented from touching 
  not by bars but by circumstance: 
  You have terrible fights and say cruel things 
  for having the hots does not give you a sweet temper. 

  One night you are walking down a dark street 
  And hear the pad-pad of a panther following you, 
  but when you turn around there are only shadows, 
  or perhaps one shadow too many. 

  You approach, calling, "Who's there?" 
  and it leaps on you. 
  Luckily you have brought along your sword 
  and you stab it to death. 

  And before your eyes it turns into the woman you love, 
  her breast impaled on your sword, 
  her mouth dribbling blood saying she loved you 
  but couldn't help her tendency. 

  So death released her from the curse at last, 
  and you knew from the angelic smile on her dead face 
  that in spite of a life the devil owned, 
  love had won, and heaven pardoned her. 

  --Edward Field, from Counting Myself Lucky. ? David R. Godine. 





  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================
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From tad  Fri Aug 12 13:52:23 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:52:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Watch Your Language
References: <BF21D256.9C83%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00f501c59f66$9b6b53b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: [New-Poetry] Watch Your LanguageAOL did something like this several years ago -- banning all use of the word "breast" on their bulletin boards. One not-very-amused group had to change their name to the Hooter Cancer Support Group.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 5:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Watch Your Language


  On 8/12/05 8:56 AM, "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org> wrote:



    Watch your language

    UK station cancels Keillor feature over questionable content

    By Jamie Gumbrecht

    HERALD-LEADER CULTURE WRITER


    A few weeks after The Boston Globe called The Writer's Almanac radio program "a confection of poetry and history wrapped in the down comforter voice of producer and host Garrison Keillor," WUKY-91.3 FM canceled the daily featurette for what it considered offensive content.

    The five-minute segments aired on the University of Kentucky's public radio station at 11 a.m. until Aug. 1. It opened with soft piano music and the voice of A Prairie Home Companion's Keillor remembering major moments in writing history. It was a break for history between news broadcasts and pop music, each day ending with a poem and the wish to "be well, do good work and keep in touch."

    But in a time of Federal Communications Commission crackdowns on radio content, WUKY officials say, the poems Keillor read were too risque for airplay.

    "I don't question the artistic merit, but I have to question the language," WUKY General Manager Tom Godell said. "It's not that he's behaving like Howard Stern, but the FCC has been so inconsistent, we don't know where we stand. We could no longer risk a fine."

    Reaction to the cancellation has been minimal so far, Godell said. WUKY managers decided to stop carrying the Almanac after a recent spate of language advisories, although they were tracking the content for about a year, Godell said.

    The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came about Curse of the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained violent themes and the word "breast"; Thinking About the Past by Donald Justice, which also used the word "breast"; and Reunion by Amber Coverdale, which contained the phrase "get high." The poems were scheduled for broadcast between July 23 and Aug. 12.

    WUKY never heard complaints about The Writer's Almanac because the station always edited potentially offensive language, Godell said. Prairie Home Productions and American Public Media, the segment's producer and distributor, do not edit or select the content.

    "It's not a terrible burden to edit, but my concern is that something slips through," Godell said. "We have certain standards of decency, and I expect our national producers to do the same thing."

    The station vigilantly checks song lyrics for offensive content, Godell said, and broadcasts with language advisories are carefully considered. If offensive language clarifies a story, it will be broadcast, especially when listeners can be warned first. But an FCC sanction would be an embarrassment to the station and the university, Godell said.

    Keillor, who will perform Feb. 21 at Centre College's Norton Center for the Arts, said in an e-mail that stations are within their rights to cancel the Almanac but he's proud of the poems he reads.

    "There isn't one of them I would hesitate to offer to any high school English class," Keillor wrote. "The fact that someone is troubled by hearing the word 'breast' is interesting, but what are we supposed to do with A Visit >From St. Nicholas and the 'breast of the new fallen snow'? Should it become a shoulder or an elbow? I don't think so."

    Public broadcasters have long had to edit gratuitous language, but meaningful language is worth a fight, said O. Leonard Press, the retired founding director of Kentucky Educational Television. If stations censor themselves, they might as well become jukeboxes, he said.

    "The purpose of public broadcasting is not to be safe, but to be useful, good, to give people something to think about, something to grow on," Press said. "Survival is not more important than being useful."

    Press, an ardent fan of Keillor's writing and performing, called the cancellation an overreaction.

    "If Garrison Keillor is less desirable on the airwaves than Desperate Housewives," he said, "we've gone a far piece."

    Tad Richards
    www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org> 
    http://opusforty.blogspot.com/


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



  Oh, my God! Not the word "breast"! No wonder they cancelled the poetry. They should have followed Steve Martin's lead and called those things by their proper name: Hooters. Then at least they could claim the poems were about owls. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad  Fri Aug 12 13:53:10 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:53:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language
References: <BF223689.1374C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <010801c59f66$b76d2070$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Re: Watch Your LanguageGood poem.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:20 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language


  on 8/12/05 8:56 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

  The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came about Curse of the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained violent themes and the word "breast"; Thinking About the Past by Donald Justice, which also used the word "breast"; and Reunion by Amber Coverdale, which contained the phrase "get high." The poems were scheduled for broadcast between July 23 and Aug. 12. 
  ==============================



  Wow, and wow.  Somebody quick notify August Kleinzahler that Keillor's gone over the top and begun heeding his call for poetry  that is "all about excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk."

  Now let's all send to the station manager of WUKY-91.3 FM poems by radicals like Wordsworth that employ the word "breast,"  shall we?

  Here's the offending poem by Edward Field, by the way.  Cover your eyes, kids!



  Curse Of The Cat Woman 

  It sometimes happens 
  that the woman you meet and fall in love with 
  is of that strange Transylvanian people 
  with an affinity for cats. 

  You take her to a restaurant, say, or a show, 
  on an ordinary date, being attracted 
  by the glitter in her slitty eyes and her catlike walk, 
  and afterwards of course you take her in your arms 
  and she turns into a black panther 
  and bites you to death. 

  Or perhaps you are saved in the nick of time 
  and she is tormented by the knowledge of her tendency: 
  That she daren't hug a man 
  unless she wants to risk clawing him up. 

  This puts you both in a difficult position< panting lovers who are prevented from touching 
  not by bars but by circumstance: 
  You have terrible fights and say cruel things 
  for having the hots does not give you a sweet temper. 

  One night you are walking down a dark street 
  And hear the pad-pad of a panther following you, 
  but when you turn around there are only shadows, 
  or perhaps one shadow too many. 

  You approach, calling, "Who's there?" 
  and it leaps on you. 
  Luckily you have brought along your sword 
  and you stab it to death. 

  And before your eyes it turns into the woman you love, 
  her breast impaled on your sword, 
  her mouth dribbling blood saying she loved you 
  but couldn't help her tendency. 

  So death released her from the curse at last, 
  and you knew from the angelic smile on her dead face 
  that in spite of a life the devil owned, 
  love had won, and heaven pardoned her. 

  --Edward Field, from Counting Myself Lucky. ? David R. Godine. 





  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad  Fri Aug 12 13:59:05 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:59:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The breast of Mary something...
References: <BF223B94.13756%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <012501c59f67$8ad993d0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

The breast of Mary something...Hey, we got Margery's breast in there, too. No wonder they were offended.

Like Pat Boone singing Tutti Frutti.

You'll recall that the lyrics were -

Got a gal named Sue, she knows just what to do
Got a gal named Sue, she knows just what to do
Rocks to the east, Rocks to the west,
She's the gal that I love best


Got a gal named Daisy, almost drives me crazy
Got a gal named Daisy, almost drives me crazy
Knows how love me yes indeed, boy you don't know what you do to me


... what could cause offense? But Pat Boone felt it would hurt his image if he were courting two girls, so the last line of the second verse was changed to

She's a real gone cookie, yessiree, but pretty little Susie is the gal for me






Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:42 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] The breast of Mary something...


  Yet another offending poem mentioned in the article is this hot number:

  Thinking about the Past

  Certain moments will never change nor stop being--
  My mother's face all smiles, all wrinkles soon;
  The rock wall building, built, collapsed then, fallen;
  Our upright loosening downward slowly out of tune--
  All fixed into place now, all rhyming with each other.
  That red-haired girl with wide mouth-Eleanor--
  Forgotten thirty years-her freckled shoulders, hands.
  The breast of Mary Something, freed from a white swimsuit,
  Damp, sandy, warm; or Margery's, a small, caught bird-
  Darkness they rise from, darkness they sink back toward.
  And Kenny in wartime whites, crisp, cocky,
  Time a bow bent with his certain failure.
  Dusks, dawns; waves; the ends of songs . . . 

  --Donald Justice
  ----------------------------

  School of Quietude my ass!  Donald Justice rocks!  (Note the word "cocky," also. . . .)

  Someone please tell me that this news story is really just a hoax. . . .


  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
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From mandolin  Fri Aug 12 14:11:05 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:11:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language
In-Reply-To: <BF223689.1374C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BF223689.1374C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <7F2EC9AA-BCD2-461C-8F6A-F221652900D8@mac.com>


On Aug 12, 2005, at 12:20 , David Graham wrote:

> on 8/12/05 8:56 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:
>
> The warnings, issued by the program's production company, came  
> about Curse of the Cat Woman by Edward Field, which contained  
> violent themes and the word "breast"; Thinking About the Past by  
> Donald Justice, which also used the word "breast"; and Reunion by  
> Amber Coverdale, which contained the phrase "get high." The poems  
> were scheduled for broadcast between July 23 and Aug. 12.
> ==============================
>
>
>
> Wow, and wow.  Somebody quick notify August Kleinzahler that  
> Keillor's gone over the top and begun heeding his call for poetry   
> that is "all about excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk."
>
> Now let's all send to the station manager of WUKY-91.3 FM poems by  
> radicals like Wordsworth that employ the word "breast,"  shall we?
>
> Here's the offending poem by Edward Field, by the way.  Cover your  
> eyes, kids!
>
>
>
> Curse Of The Cat Woman
>
> It sometimes happens
> that the woman you meet and fall in love with
> is of that strange Transylvanian people
> with an affinity for cats.
>
> You take her to a restaurant, say, or a show,
> on an ordinary date, being attracted
> by the glitter in her slitty eyes and her catlike walk,
> and afterwards of course you take her in your arms
> and she turns into a black panther
> and bites you to death.
>
> Or perhaps you are saved in the nick of time
> and she is tormented by the knowledge of her tendency:
> That she daren't hug a man
> unless she wants to risk clawing him up.
>
> This puts you both in a difficult position? panting lovers who are  
> prevented from touching
> not by bars but by circumstance:
> You have terrible fights and say cruel things
> for having the hots does not give you a sweet temper.
>
> One night you are walking down a dark street
> And hear the pad-pad of a panther following you,
> but when you turn around there are only shadows,
> or perhaps one shadow too many.
>
> You approach, calling, "Who's there?"
> and it leaps on you.
> Luckily you have brought along your sword
> and you stab it to death.
>
> And before your eyes it turns into the woman you love,
> her breast impaled on your sword,
> her mouth dribbling blood saying she loved you
> but couldn't help her tendency.
>
> So death released her from the curse at last,
> and you knew from the angelic smile on her dead face
> that in spite of a life the devil owned,
> love had won, and heaven pardoned her.
>
> --Edward Field, from Counting Myself Lucky. ? David R. Godine.
>

And here's Amber Coverdale Sumrall's poem, which offended because of  
"refused to get high":

Reunion

In your old pickup we drive the length of the island looking for
blackberries and trails that lead to the lighthouse, tell stories
about our six cats, the ones we divided when I left. I took your
favorites, the ones that were mine before we met. Your fifth
marriage is faltering. I am falling in love for the third time since
we separated. All you want to do is fish in your father's rowboat,
build a small cabin on five acres of land. Beyond right now,
I don't know what I want. Somewhere on Orcas another woman
dreams of you, waits for you to enter her life.

We smoke from your well-seasoned pipe, nervous as new
lovers. Those last months I refused to get high with you; we
always fought afterward. I remember why I loved you and why,
after ten years, I left. The reasons blend together, rise with the
smoke and dissipate. You ask me to tell you why, once again.
Each time the story is different, a work in progress. Days pass
in one afternoon. Is there still a chance, you ask.

We smile at one another, our defenses down. No one knows
us better. At the trailhead you pick purple flowers, hand
them to me, suddenly shy. I trip over exposed roots as we walk,
instinctively take your outstretched hand then let it go. In the
lagoon a pair of herons dance for one another, lowering their
long necks in courtship. Hidden behind boulders, we watch in
silence until the birds lift and disappear beyond the lighthouse.
There is always a chance, I say.



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Aug 12 14:58:26 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:58:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language
Message-ID: <1c3.2e8e1334.302e4b52@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/12/2005 12:21:09 PM Central Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 
> 
> Referring to:
>  Now let's all send to the station manager of WUKY-91.3 FM poems by radicals 
> like Wordsworth that employ the word "breast,"  shall we?
> 
>  
>  I agree,
>  I will send Mark Halliday's Skirt!
> 
I will send that one by Yeats that asks, "And what rough breast is this . . . 
?"
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From anny.ballardini  Fri Aug 12 15:11:24 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:11:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language
References: <1c3.2e8e1334.302e4b52@cs.com>
Message-ID: <014001c59f71$a2479c10$92ae3252@ANNY>

WRITTEN WHILE SAILING IN A BOAT AT EVENING
          HOW richly glows the water's breast
          Before us, tinged with evening hues,
          While, facing thus the crimson west,
          The boat her silent course pursues!
          And see how dark the backward stream!
          A little moment past so smiling!
          And still, perhaps, with faithless gleam,
          Some other loiterers beguiling.

          Such views the youthful Bard allure;
          But, heedless of the following gloom,                       10
          He deems their colours shall endure
          Till peace go with him to the tomb.
          --And let him nurse his fond deceit,
          And what if he must die in sorrow!
          Who would not cherish dreams so sweet,
          Though grief and pain may come to-morrow?
                                                              1789.

William Wordsworth
from Bartleby.com
http://www.bartleby.com/145/ww115.html
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From Kent.Johnson  Fri Aug 12 18:27:32 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:27:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
Message-ID: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>

Mike Snider said, referring to the title of my book, I believe:

>You're right, of course. But claiming or implying equivalence between 

the two is ludicrous and, it seems to me, shameful.


Why do you think I am implying an absolute "equivalence"? The famous
quote is from Adorno, I'm sure you know. To write lyric poetry after
Auschwitz is barbaric, etc.

Still, I *do* think the title does suggest that the kind of evil
perpetrated at Abu Ghraib (an institutional evil, and not just an
incidental one, as the Pentagon would have it) does point *toward*
Auschwitz. In other words, the quantitative magnitude hardly compares,
but the sources are homologous. 

I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a qualification.
And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.

Kent




From bobgrumman  Fri Aug 12 19:06:03 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:06:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
> embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a qualification.
> And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
> off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.
>
> Kent

How interesting.  And is the ability to piss some people off of the claim 
that the Holocaust never happened an index of its truth, as well, Kent?

--Bob G. 





From mandolin  Fri Aug 12 19:23:33 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:23:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <B915AE35-BB12-4B13-BB8D-9EE1F0A949CF@mac.com>


On Aug 12, 2005, at 18:27 , Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike Snider said, referring to the title of my book, I believe:
>
>
>> You're right, of course. But claiming or implying equivalence between
>>
>
> the two is ludicrous and, it seems to me, shameful.
>
>
> Why do you think I am implying an absolute "equivalence"? The famous
> quote is from Adorno, I'm sure you know. To write lyric poetry after
> Auschwitz is barbaric, etc.
>
> Still, I *do* think the title does suggest that the kind of evil
> perpetrated at Abu Ghraib (an institutional evil, and not just an
> incidental one, as the Pentagon would have it) does point *toward*
> Auschwitz. In other words, the quantitative magnitude hardly compares,
> but the sources are homologous.
>

It's not just a quantitative difference. The deliberate intention to  
murder, to erase a part of humanity, is not any way equivalent to the  
kind of incompetence and arrogance, from the highest levels on down,  
which allowed the atrocities at Abu Ghraib.

> I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
> embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a qualification.
> And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
> off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.
>

Horseshit. It pisses people off because it trivializes the Holocaust.  
And it also pisses me off -- as does Adorno's empty posturing --  
because the great tragedies and villains of the last hundred years  
which CAN be instructively compared to Hitler and the Holocaust are  
never mentioned by the left -- Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung,  
and, indeed, the race and religious hatred taught by jihadists. It  
pisses me off that the latter -- like the monstrous Sadaam Hussein  
and the South and Central American death squad creators -- learned  
their trade from the fascists, but, unlike them, are never compared  
to the fascists becasue their target is the West.

I despise George Bush. He's small-minded, ignorant, and incompetent.  
I despise Rumsfeld's arrogance, and the silly  neo-con notion that  
everything would be OK if only people would pretend they're  
Republicans. But there's no sense in which those people are like the  
Nazis. Bin Laden, on the other hand,  would have danced on  
Krsytallnaght.

Mike S



From mandolin  Fri Aug 12 19:24:15 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:24:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
	<006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>


On Aug 12, 2005, at 19:06 , Bob Grumman wrote:

>> I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
>> embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a  
>> qualification.
>> And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
>> off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.
>>
>> Kent
>>
>
> How interesting.  And is the ability to piss some people off of the  
> claim that the Holocaust never happened an index of its truth, as  
> well, Kent?
>
> --Bob G.
>

Thanks for mentioning that, Bob.

>




From chris.lott  Fri Aug 12 23:27:08 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:27:08 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
	<006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05081220277ed02057@mail.gmail.com>

In other words "I support the 'war on terror' (or whatever it's called
now), so I hate your chapbook." At least let's see this criticism for
what it is.

What's strange is that on the one hand we're supposed to believe that
Kent's book is irrelevant because it is 'old news' but then we are
supposed to also believe that the conflict in Iraq is relevant,
justified, and a legitimate war. How can both be true?

And where are these comparisons coming from anyway? I don't see Kent
making them, but a lot sure is being made of a title that-- given its
context-- doesn't mean anything like what most want to ascribe to it.

And Mike S, if you believe that Adorno was posturing, then why aren't
you seeing someone that defies his idea as a hero?

c




From chezjewelweed  Sat Aug 13 08:38:43 2005
From: chezjewelweed (Yo)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:38:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab05081220277ed02057@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
	<006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
	<9b1b9dab05081220277ed02057@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2966287050813053868577f4@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/12/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote:
> In other words "I support the 'war on terror' (or whatever it's called
> now), so I hate your chapbook." At least let's see this criticism for
> what it is.

That is exactly what it sounded like to me. Thank you for pointing
this out, Chris.

I would also add, Michael, that the more you rant and fume and use
defensive language, the more you come across as a defensive
right-winger. Not a great way to make a point.

I would also like to make another point:

Michale said: "It pisses me off that the latter -- like the monstrous
Sadaam Hussein and the South and Central American death squad creators
-- learned their trade from the fascists, but, unlike them, are never
compared to the fascists becasue their target is the West."

Michael, what planet are you living on? First of all I would like to
gently remind you that Hussein and the South and Central American
death squad creators learned their trade largely from *US* and so far
as I have been able to tell, the west was never their target. For that
matter the Taliban also learned a lot from us. Secondly, where did you
get the idea that nobody is criticizing these people or calling them
on their hideous actions?

Finally I fail to see how condemning Abu Graib trivializes the
holocaust. You seem to love making that claim, but I see no evidence
of anyone trivializing anything. Your claims are certainly not based
upon anything Kent has said so far as I can see. It sounds to me more
like a common knee jerk argument made people make when they don't want
to take what is happening right now very seriously, in which case it
really is not about the poetry or what Kent is doing. I heard the same
reactiveness to Forche's Against Forgetting Anthology, and it all
sounds rather canned.  I am speaking as one who has actually lived
close to that part of the world, and as such I am very well aware of
what is going on and what people have to say about it.  I am sure that
if the bombs were going off outside of your window this would suddenly
become a very different and very morally urgent matter.

My two bits. 

Suzanne Burns




From marcus  Sat Aug 13 09:40:48 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:40:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42FDC020.10955.38E08@localhost>

> Mike Snider said:
> >You're right, of course. But claiming or implying equivalence between 
> the two is ludicrous and, it seems to me, shameful.
 
Kent Johnson wrote:
> Why do you think I am implying an absolute "equivalence"? The famous
> quote is from Adorno, I'm sure you know. To write lyric poetry after
> Auschwitz is barbaric, etc.
> Still, I *do* think the title does suggest that the kind of evil
> perpetrated at Abu Ghraib (an institutional evil, and not just an
> incidental one, as the Pentagon would have it) does point *toward*
> Auschwitz. In other words, the quantitative magnitude hardly compares,
> but the sources are homologous. 

First, that "absolute" is nothing but an attempt to create more fire than 
the smoke warrants.

Second, I agree with Kent's qualified assertion now that AbuGhraib does 
indeed point toward Auschwitz because I, too, think that the problem is 
institutional, and not incidental. Kent's original assertions didn't make 
that careful distinction, though, that I could see.

> I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
> embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a qualification.
> And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
> off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.

But measuring the truth on an index of pissing people off is a bad idea. 
Most of what pisses people off about the truth is the smug self-
righteousness of the way those who claim to know it present it. People 
are all the more resistant to the truth the more they think they have a 
handle on it already, and, thus, presenting one's own truth as self-
evident stumbles on the basic pedagogical principle that one must start 
where one's students are in order to lead them to any other place.

Kent's intent is transparently to preach to the choir, because he's smart 
and experienced enough to know that "start where your students are" 
principle. His protestations that he's been misunderstood by people not 
members of the choir he was preaching to is nothing but faux-naive. 
That pretended surprise at the vociferousness of a reaction that is 
precisely the kind of reaction one was hoping for is accurately perceived 
as just that smug self-righteousness which is gasoline on the fire. It's an 
index not of truth but of presentation.

Marcus








From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 11:04:49 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:04:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
Message-ID: <s2fdc5de.011@mail.highland.edu>

Mike, you got to be kidding on the below:

"The Central American and South American death squad creators" learned
their trade from the fascists? 

You mean it was just these bad Spanish-speaking guys? And those bad
Indonesian right-wingers who slaughtered about 500,000 in one week, or
so, back in '65. Bad, bad fascists...if ony they had taken a lesson from
the CIA manuals on parliamentary democracy. And those Turks slaughtering
Kurds for years, and all that stuff, I know, it really pisses ya off
that they couldn't have just listened a bit more to the West! Bad
fascist Shah. Mobutu, heartless fascist, South African white fascists,
bad guys, them, if only they had listened to us here in the West all
those years when democracy and human rights guided our policies on the
Dark Continent! Oh, it just pisses ya off, that there had to be fascism
and stuff and that it got so, like, influential, the tactics of torture,
mass murder, ethnic cleansing... Well, we did our best... if only we'd
had a few more "people on the ground"!

I know you work for the Air Force and plot bombing runs, or something
like that, but you could still be a bit more, um, "credible" in your
argumentation.

Kent

Mike said:

>And it also pisses me off -- as does Adorno's empty posturing --  
because the great tragedies and villains of the last hundred years  
which CAN be instructively compared to Hitler and the Holocaust are  
never mentioned by the left -- Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung,  
and, indeed, the race and religious hatred taught by jihadists. It  
pisses me off that the latter -- like the monstrous Sadaam Hussein  
and the South and Central American death squad creators -- learned  
their trade from the fascists, but, unlike them, are never compared  
to the fascists becasue their target is the West.







From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 11:50:20 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus...
Message-ID: <s2fdd083.017@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus,

That's an interesting post. I had to read the end twice, where things
get kind of complicated, at least for me.

If this book only reaches the "choir," as you say, then it will have
been a waste of time, I suppose. But judging from the early returns, and
knowing of other responses to come, and seeing that the hip frat-boy
club of the post-avant blog world has been burning my effigy in quite
melodramatic fashion the past week, I think it may reach more than the
"choir." I hope so, anyway. 

Of course, we are talking about a pamphlet of "poetry" here, so all
must be kept in perspective!

Kent



From marcus  Sat Aug 13 12:52:12 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:52:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] angry reaction as a measure of truth
In-Reply-To: <s2fdd083.017@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <42FDECFC.9752.B2C89D@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2005 at 10:50, Kent Johnson wrote:
> If this book only reaches the "choir," as you say, then it will have
> been a waste of time, I suppose. But judging from the early returns, and
> knowing of other responses to come, and seeing that the hip frat-boy
> club of the post-avant blog world has been burning my effigy in quite
> melodramatic fashion the past week, I think it may reach more than the
> "choir." I hope so, anyway. 
> Of course, we are talking about a pamphlet of "poetry" here, so all
> must be kept in perspective!

I didn't say the book only reaches the choir; I said it preaches to the 
choir. The point of putting a to-the-choir book out in front of non-choir 
people escapes me, but you seem to think that it can be used as an 
index of truth if it pisses off enough people, or some group of people. I 
think that trying to measure truth by putting what you hold to be true in a 
way that pisses people off is a poor measure of the truth.

If you judge the stuff by the effectiveness of its persuasiveness in the 
world, or by the reaction it gets from those who find whatever ideas it 
may contain to be wrong-headed, and you value those kinds of 
responses at least as much as any aesthetic response, and perhaps 
more to judge from the enthusiasm with which you throw yourself into 
these tempests, then it looks to me as if this is nothing more than a 
defense of the idea that poetry isn't an art, it's advertising or 
propaganda, however artful it may be as advertising or propaganda.

If it's only a pamphlet of poetry, though, and other media will garner a 
larger audience for your persuasion, or for your off-pissing intentions, 
why bother with poetry? Why not embrace the issues of the day through 
a more effective means of contemporary persuasion? You don't make 
any money from poetry -- why not volunteer or the media campaigns of 
people running for office with whom you may agree? Why not get a job 
as staff for one of them? It's as low-paying as any teaching position.


Marcus





> 
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From uche  Sat Aug 13 13:04:22 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:04:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 14:28 -0400, William Knott wrote:

> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .

In the middle of this interesting message, this sentence really struck
me.  I've always been a disciple of Graves in such matters, and I think
this is a nice statement of an important idea that is often left out of
debates over the meaning of poetry.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Sat Aug 13 13:11:39 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:11:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry and magic
In-Reply-To: <1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
	<1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <1123953099.31001.249.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 11:04 -0600, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 14:28 -0400, William Knott wrote:
> 
> > If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
> > and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .
> 
> In the middle of this interesting message, this sentence really struck
> me.  I've always been a disciple of Graves in such matters, and I think
> this is a nice statement of an important idea that is often left out of
> debates over the meaning of poetry.

Silly me.  I see now that William was quoting Paz.  Still, kudos for the
quote.

-- 
Uche






From uche  Sat Aug 13 13:14:44 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:14:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 14, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <006b01c59ea7$2a2a27e0$94d73152@ANNY>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
	<006b01c59ea7$2a2a27e0$94d73152@ANNY>
Message-ID: <1123953284.31001.253.camel@malatesta>

On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 21:02 +0200, Anny Ballardini wrote:
 
> I anyhow wanted to re-quote one of your quotations:
>  
> "Neither philosophers nor revolutionaries can
> patiently tolerate the ambivalence of poets. . . . Here lies
> the basis of the misunderstanding between revolutionaries
> and poets, which no one has been able to unravel.
> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . "
>  
> This is excellent and depicts right there the true essence of the
> poet. Not a politician not a priest or nun, but standing on his/her
> own, in this sort of magic element which is poetry.
> I think this solves all the diatribes, 

I see you liked this bit too, Anny.  Does anyone know of a link to this
passage on-line?  A link to the original Spanish would do fine.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com






From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 13:45:40 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:45:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus...
Message-ID: <s2fdeb87.034@mail.highland.edu>

Marcus, thanks for your thoughts. Some replies in your comments below:


>I didn't say the book only reaches the choir; I said it preaches to
the 
choir. The point of putting a to-the-choir book out in front of
non-choir 
people escapes me, but you seem to think that it can be used as an 
index of truth if it pisses off enough people, or some group of people.
I 
think that trying to measure truth by putting what you hold to be true
in a 
way that pisses people off is a poor measure of the truth.


+OK, sorry for missing that. But no, I don't think that's the nature of
the book, that it "preaches to the choir." Well, I mean, it *does*
preach to the choir, I'm sure, but I think it tells the choir (there I
am, singing in the bass section!) that we are a silly, pompous,
hypocritical, confused, and fucked-up choir and we better do something
about our choir music if we're ever going to get an audience for our
choir! Some of the poems do that. That pisses some people off, I guess,
and maybe they are pissed off partly because they sense there is
something true there. They like their choir just fine the way it is.
Other of the poems don't really address the choir in any obvious manner,
but speak about the war in ways that are quite down to earth,
non-esoteric, etc. A couple pieces are so wacky I have no idea who they
are addressed to. One poem is written in the style of a famous
children's story. Weirdly, it was published originally in the Monthly
Review, the oldest Marxist journal in America. You could say that my
pamphlet is a pamphlet that has different "ideal readers." But have you
seen it yet, Marcus?


>If you judge the stuff by the effectiveness of its persuasiveness in
the 
world, or by the reaction it gets from those who find whatever ideas it

may contain to be wrong-headed, and you value those kinds of 
responses at least as much as any aesthetic response, and perhaps 
more to judge from the enthusiasm with which you throw yourself into 
these tempests, then it looks to me as if this is nothing more than a 
defense of the idea that poetry isn't an art, it's advertising or 
propaganda, however artful it may be as advertising or propaganda.


+Well, I do care about the aesthetic response! But you and I clearly
have a very different idea of the "aesthetic," its nature and possible
circumference. Or maybe I should put it this way: You seem to have a
much firmer grasp of the True nature of the Aesthetic than I. But I'm
quite comfortable, truly, with my uncertainty... I'm not quite sure I
know what to say about your suggestion that the book is just advertising
and propaganda. Do you think this because you have read it and judged
it, or because there is a little bit of controversy around it and so
this makes it mere advertising? There is all kind of great art that
initially was greeted with scandal, confusion, laughter, tomatoes. The
artists weren't necessarily just trying to "advertise." Some people have
told me they think the work is exciting. Others have said they think it
is boring. (A full parody has already been written of the book,
ostensibly to highlight its boring nature.) Maybe you are right that
it's all just advertising and propaganda. But maybe it's true, too, that
there is an obscene war going on because of a bunch of imperial lies and
so a book of this kind is going touch some nerves in different ways,
cause a tiny tempest in its little world, as it were. What should I do,
do you think, in relation to such a book? Be retiring like Emily
Dickinson? 

>If it's only a pamphlet of poetry, though, and other media will garner
a 
larger audience for your persuasion, or for your off-pissing
intentions, 
why bother with poetry? Why not embrace the issues of the day through 
a more effective means of contemporary persuasion? You don't make 
any money from poetry -- why not volunteer or the media campaigns of 
people running for office with whom you may agree? Why not get a job 
as staff for one of them? It's as low-paying as any teaching position.

+What makes you think I don't, Marcus? Does one preclude the other?

Kent






From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 13:51:24 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:51:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
	<1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 14:28 -0400, William Knott quoted:
>
>> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
>> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .

How is this not pure bullshit?  Like just about all descriptions of poetry 
by poets.

--Bob G. 





From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 14:10:38 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:10:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
Message-ID: <s2fdf16f.038@mail.highland.edu>

Bob Grumman said, in resposne to comment by Bill Knott:

>> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
>> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .

>How is this not pure bullshit?  Like just about all descriptions of
poetry 
by poets.



My my. Lady Macbeth has a temper.





From robin.hamilton2  Sat Aug 13 14:21:35 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:21:35 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta>
	<002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin>

> > On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 14:28 -0400, William Knott quoted:
> >
> >> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
> >> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .
>
> How is this not pure bullshit?  Like just about all descriptions of poetry
> by poets.
>
> --Bob G.

Well, as Uche earlier pointed out, it can be found in Robert Graves (in +The
White Goddess+ and elsewhere).  But that's more specifically linked to the
idea of the Muse, which doesn't *have* to be dealt with in Graves'
terminology -- it can be seen from the perspective of material, audience
(initial and final), addressee, the psychology of creation, lots of things.

Think of Shakespeare's Sonnets.

This approach to poetry *coexists* with other ways of describing it.  (A
parallel taxonomy, Bob?)

Robin





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 14:24:33 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:24:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <s2fdf16f.038@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <003601c5a034$4117ceb0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Bob Grumman said, in resposne to comment by Bill Knott:
> 
>>> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
>>> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .
> 
>>How is this not pure bullshit?  Like just about all descriptions of
> poetry 
> by poets.
> 
> 
> 
> My my. Lady Macbeth has a temper.

Good answer--like all your (few) answers.




From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 14:26:45 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:26:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <003b01c5a034$8ff77530$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Seems to me like saying poetry needs to have emotional power or the like.  I 
have no problem with painting pretty pictures of poetry, but . . .  So, is 
there some objective definition of "magic" that I'm missing, Robin?

--Bob 





From JforJames  Sat Aug 13 14:45:33 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:45:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prize-winning poet accused of plagiarism
Message-ID: <19f.39be0446.302f99cd@aol.com>

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20050812071447700
C403672

By Karen Breytenbach

South African poet Melanie Grobler has relinquished the Eug?ne Marais 
literature prize and offered to pay back the prize money after it emerged that she 
had presented an unacknowledged translation of a poem by Canadian author Anne 
Michaels as her own work.

Although her poem Stad (Die Waterbreker, 2004) reads as an almost direct 
translation of Michaels's There Is No City That Does Not Dream (Skin Divers, 
1999), without any reference to Michaels, Grobler denies allegations of plagiarism. 
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From robin.hamilton2  Sat Aug 13 14:55:04 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:55:04 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<003b01c5a034$8ff77530$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <005601c5a038$84ca7280$f29c9951@Robin>

> Seems to me like saying poetry needs to have emotional power or the like.

It's a little more complicated than that, Bob

>I
> have no problem with painting pretty pictures of poetry, but . . .  So, is
> there some objective definition of "magic" that I'm missing, Robin?
>
> --Bob

I'm not entirely happy with the term "magic" myself, but I'm even less happy
with something like "the psychodynamics of creation", so I'll stick to
magic.

But I'm also unhappy with talking about this in the abstract, so if we go
back to my earlier instance of Shakespeare's Sonnets.

There we have (in my reading, and I admit there are others), the Young Man
is the Muse Figure.  (In fact, he's specifically an example of the
Inaccessible Muse that would go back to [at least] Petrarch and Dante and
takes in the whole range of poems-written-to-dead-wives.)  He's also the
content and [overt] addressee in the sequence -- the poems are both about
him [among other things, obviously] and [formally] addressed to him.  (Note
the change when we get to 126 and the poems *about* but not *to* the Dark
Lady.)  But he's not the final addressee since the poems are read by others
after they're published ...

Other things as well, but I'll stop there for the moment.

So what I'm [confusedly?] saying is that there's a whole range of things,
both aspects of the poems as they exist as [formal] public objects; and
also as part of the poet's  -- or some poets' -- creative process.

I agree it's muddle (though the muddle may be mostly me) but I think in
rejecting it out of hand, "magic" or whatever we call this, you're in danger
of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Bob.

Robin





From JforJames  Sat Aug 13 15:32:29 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:32:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's critique of 'spiritualized' poetry 
Message-ID: <1f9.fc1c1f0.302fa4cd@aol.com>

Bill, 
Sadoff is a bit glib himself, the way I read him. I don't have any
trouble with Sadoff pointing to a 'fashion of spirituality' that may
becoming a little too easy in contemporary poetry. But I think
he's wrong, in large part, as to his assumptions about what is
behind it. Let's face it, poetry can be a kind of secular prayer.
There is precious little place in contemporary society for the
kind of psychic space of contemplation and meditation that
poetry allows for. His view is that poets are opportunistically 
'spiritualizing' their poetry to fit with some kind of zeitgeist.
And I don't see it that way. I see primarily a genuine attempt 
to connect to the world in a very basic and real way. To make way 
for more genuine forms of experience, against the casual stimulation
proffered 24-7 by forces of commerce and media. It's resistance
spirituality; not bandwagonism.

I would suggest that Sadoff read people like Jane Hirshfiled
and Linda Gregg. This is not a mega-church, Christian coalition
type of spiritual poetry. Or even if he looked at Mark Jarman
or Eric Pankey, he might see poets struggling with more a
traditional and religiously-grounded spiritual dilemma. It doesn't
strike me as the huckster spiritualism of evangelical revivals
or new-agey storefronts popping up in old strip mall, after the head
shops went out of business, trafficking in crystals, incense and 
dulcimer music.

As an aside: There are certain poet-critics, and Sadoff strikes
me as one of them, whom whenever I read them I can't help but think that most 
of what is driving their reviews is a sense of having been 'overlooked' or 
'undervalued' as poets. They have grievances that 
are personal that they attempt to recast as an objective acrimony
brought forth through keen critical insight.
Finnegan


In a message dated 8/11/2005 2:29:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
William_Knott at emerson.edu writes:
In a message dated 8/10/2005 11:13:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> Ira Sadoff is the Grinch of contemporary criticism

I was going to say that if Logan the bad-boy critic of Contemporary
Poetry, then Sadoff is the 'always looking darkly through a glass 
half-full'  critic of Contemporary Poetry.
Finnegan 


.... you can slang him around with grinch and bad-boy and so on, but 
there must be others besides Sadoff who find the "spirituality" of 
much recent U.S.poetry to be suspiciously 
opportunistic and servile given the current political climate. . . .
i've wondered about that myself lately....

when i adumbrated the subject a couple years ago on this
list and wondered why there were so many anthologies of
spiritual poetry on the bookstore shelves, and not a single one of
atheist poetry, i was told to go edit such an anthology myself,
which shut me up and chagrined me into silence....  you
can silence a nothing nobody like me, but i'm glad to
see an influential publication like APR bring the matter
forward for consideration....

Sadoff's point about the waning influence of marxist poets
like Neruda, and the subsequent rising interest in Rilke, is 
right, i think... and poets don't live in a vacuum or an ivory
tower, political and social events must affect our choices...
if Hilary Clinton must swerve right to survive or win, then
why not we poets also. . .

but i wonder if it's less a matter of the immediately
political than a longterm inherent dilemma: i defer to
Octavio Paz.  Here's some thoughts from "Children of the Mire":
"Poets reacted to the assault on Christianity by critical
philosophy by becoming the channels through which
the ancient religious spirit, Christian and pre-Christian,
was transmitted. . . .  More than once?with irritation
but not without true insight?Trotsky pointed out 
religious elements in the work of the majority of Russian
poets and writers of the [1920s]. . . . Trotsky's criticism
amounts to a condemnation of poetry. . . . [H]is criticism
of poetry . . . takes on the form of the criticism which
philosophy and science since the eighteenth century
have made of the religion, myths, magic, and other beliefs
of the past.   Neither philosophers nor revolutionaries can
patiently tolerate the ambivalence of poets. . . . Here lies
the basis of the misunderstanding between revolutionaries
and poets, which no one has been able to unravel.
If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . . The
opposition between the poetic and the revolutionary
spirit is part of a larger contradiction, that of the linear
time of the modern age as opposed to the rhythmic time
of the poem."  Etc etc (all this from Chapter 6, pages 104-onward)....

as much as i would like to second Sadoff and see some
reactionary backsliding, some political opportunism,
some resurgence of right-wing blahblahblah, i fear that
the phenomenon is cyclical, and Paz is again
apropos: "The history of modern poetry is that of the
oscillation between revolutionary temptation and religious
temptation."

can any of us resist the swing of the pendulum, and should
we even try?

but i applaud Sadoff for struggling with the question, for staking
a position in the debate (and it is a debate, a dilemma, despite
your glib dismissals). . . .

contra Eliot, the society of poetry needs more "free-thinking Jews" 
like Sadoff.....

.... knotthead




From uche  Sat Aug 13 15:37:12 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:37:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
	<006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1123961832.31001.263.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-08-12 at 19:24 -0400, Michael Snider wrote:
> On Aug 12, 2005, at 19:06 , Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> >> I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
> >> embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a  
> >> qualification.
> >> And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
> >> off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.
> >>
> >> Kent
> >>
> >
> > How interesting.  And is the ability to piss some people off of the  
> > claim that the Holocaust never happened an index of its truth, as  
> > well, Kent?
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> 
> Thanks for mentioning that, Bob.

I'll be sorry for jumping into this fray, but what a ludicrously
sanctimonious lot the members of this list can be.

This relentless attack on Kent is perhaps just misguided, but more
likely malicious and well beneath contempt.  He hasn't said anything
unreasonable, despite the insistence of his attackers on distorting and
misrepresenting his words.

Kent, I do *not* read that you have ever claimed the equivalence of Abu
Ghraib and Auschwitz, and those who claim such are not worth paying the
least attention to.

For my part, I'm going to redouble my efforts to use the delete key.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Sat Aug 13 15:54:42 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:54:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
In-Reply-To: <004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
	<1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta>
	<002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <1123962884.31001.267.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 19:21 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 14:28 -0400, William Knott quoted:
> > >
> > >> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
> > >> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .
> >
> > How is this not pure bullshit?  Like just about all descriptions of poetry
> > by poets.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> 
> Well, as Uche earlier pointed out, it can be found in Robert Graves (in +The
> White Goddess+ and elsewhere).  But that's more specifically linked to the
> idea of the Muse, which doesn't *have* to be dealt with in Graves'
> terminology -- it can be seen from the perspective of material, audience
> (initial and final), addressee, the psychology of creation, lots of things.
> 
> Think of Shakespeare's Sonnets.
> 
> This approach to poetry *coexists* with other ways of describing it.  (A
> parallel taxonomy, Bob?)

Just so, Robin.  I didn't think I'd have to point this out to a list of
intelligent people, but I guess Bob's high temperature response proved
me wrong, so thanks for elaborating on my behalf.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 16:24:49 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:24:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu><006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
	<1123961832.31001.263.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <006401c5a045$0e33a3a0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> >> I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
>> >> embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a
>> >> qualification.
>> >> And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
>> >> off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.
>> >>
>> >> Kent
>> >>
>> >
>> > How interesting.  And is the ability to piss some people off of the
>> > claim that the Holocaust never happened an index of its truth, as
>> > well, Kent?
>> >
>> > --Bob G.
>> >
>>
>> Thanks for mentioning that, Bob.
>
> I'll be sorry for jumping into this fray, but what a ludicrously
> sanctimonious lot the members of this list can be.

Read what he said: "And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly 
piss some people off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth."  Kent fails to 
distort the truth at times only because he doesn't know what it is.  As far 
as I can tell, and I haven't investigated it very efficiently, Jim Behrle 
made a few slightly negative comments at his blog about Ken'ts collection of 
poetry, and Kent has reacted to that the way you claim Kent's sanctimonious 
oppressors are reacting to him.  He just answered my criticism of the text 
about poetry you like by speaking of my temper and comparing me to Lady 
Macbeth.  Real intelligent, yeah.  And he's ignored my question about the 
ability of claims about the Holocaust to piss people off being "an idex" of 
their validity.

--Bob G.






From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 16:26:55 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:26:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<1123962884.31001.267.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <006b01c5a045$59147e30$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


>> This approach to poetry *coexists* with other ways of describing it.  (A
>> parallel taxonomy, Bob?)
>
> Just so, Robin.  I didn't think I'd have to point this out to a list of
> intelligent people, but I guess Bob's high temperature response proved
> me wrong, so thanks for elaborating on my behalf.

Other ways of describing it?  Sure.  "Nice words," for example.  Or 
"something the makes the hair on the back of your neck jump up."  I'm merely 
high-temperaturedly suggesting that if we want to discuss what poetry is, we 
shouldn't use terms dependent, as this one seem to be but may not (enlighten 
me if not), on vague terms based on subjective feelings.

--Bob G. 





From tad  Sat Aug 13 16:28:15 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:28:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Almanac Strikes Back
Message-ID: <00af01c5a045$8c7606e0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

 
WUKY brings back 'Writer's Almanac'

PUBLIC RESPONSE PROMPTS REVERSAL OF CANCELLATION

By Jamie Gumbrecht

HERALD-LEADER CULTURE WRITER


After a two-week cancellation, The Writer's Almanac radio program will be back on WUKY-91.3 FM starting Monday.

The five-minute segment hosted by A Prairie Home Companion's Garrison Keillor was taken off the air Aug. 1 because of content the station considered offensive.

The cancellation was reversed about noon yesterday after listeners flooded the station's phone lines and e-mail inboxes in response to a Herald-Leader article.

The Almanac will move from 11 a.m. to 7:01 p.m. weekdays, beside the popular National Public Radio show Fresh Air.

"It's been an impressive response," said Tom Godell, WUKY's general manager. "Everyone who wrote, without exception, wanted it back. They didn't feel our reasons were sufficient."

Godell initially said the station feared fines and sanctions from the Federal Communications Commission because of language in poems read on the show.

Three recent language advisories from the show's producers warned about violent themes, words like "breast" and phrases like "get high."

"The FCC says any potential complaint has to be measured against community standards," Godell said. "I've now learned what Central Kentucky's standards are. I have ammunition if we were ever faced with a complaint."

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
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From mandolin  Sat Aug 13 16:33:27 2005
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:33:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <d2966287050813053868577f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
	<006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
	<9b1b9dab05081220277ed02057@mail.gmail.com>
	<d2966287050813053868577f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40EA090E-731E-4C49-8A89-9DDB0243EAFE@mac.com>


On Aug 13, 2005, at 8:38 , Yo wrote:

> On 8/12/05, Chris Lott <chris.lott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In other words "I support the 'war on terror' (or whatever it's  
>> called
>> now), so I hate your chapbook." At least let's see this criticism for
>> what it is.
>>
>
> That is exactly what it sounded like to me. Thank you for pointing
> this out, Chris.
>
> I would also add, Michael, that the more you rant and fume and use
> defensive language, the more you come across as a defensive
> right-winger. Not a great way to make a point.
>
> I would also like to make another point:
>
> Michale said: "It pisses me off that the latter -- like the monstrous
> Sadaam Hussein and the South and Central American death squad creators
> -- learned their trade from the fascists, but, unlike them, are never
> compared to the fascists becasue their target is the West."
>
> Michael, what planet are you living on? First of all I would like to
> gently remind you that Hussein and the South and Central American
> death squad creators learned their trade largely from *US* and so far
> as I have been able to tell, the west was never their target. For that
> matter the Taliban also learned a lot from us. Secondly, where did you
> get the idea that nobody is criticizing these people or calling them
> on their hideous actions?
>
> Finally I fail to see how condemning Abu Graib trivializes the
> holocaust. You seem to love making that claim, but I see no evidence
> of anyone trivializing anything. Your claims are certainly not based
> upon anything Kent has said so far as I can see. It sounds to me more
> like a common knee jerk argument made people make when they don't want
> to take what is happening right now very seriously, in which case it
> really is not about the poetry or what Kent is doing. I heard the same
> reactiveness to Forche's Against Forgetting Anthology, and it all
> sounds rather canned.  I am speaking as one who has actually lived
> close to that part of the world, and as such I am very well aware of
> what is going on and what people have to say about it.  I am sure that
> if the bombs were going off outside of your window this would suddenly
> become a very different and very morally urgent matter.
>
> My two bits.
>
> Suzanne Burns

Chris and Suzanne -- you misunderstand me.

I do NOT think think the invaiosn of Iraq was justified,  though at  
the time I was fooled by lies about WMD. Hussein is a bad man. There  
are lots of bad men (and women), and we have no right under law to  
invade a country because it's ruled by one of them. There IS a war,  
by jihadists, on the West, but invading Iraq was no part of a  
legitimate response to that war and has, in fact, damaged our cause  
and strengthened their hand,

Nor do I claim that condemning either  the torture at Abu Ghraib or  
the culture that allowed it trivializes the Holocaust. I also condemn  
them. Rumsfeld, at a minimum, should have been forcedd to resign.  
Senior military leaders should have faced serious charges. What  
trivializes the Holocaust is claiming a moral equivalence between the  
event at Abu Ghraib (and Guantanamo and at prisons in Afghanistan and  
elsewhere -- the problem is serious and systemic) and the Holocaust.

Mike S



From Rsgwynn1  Sat Aug 13 16:40:02 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:40:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's critique of 'spiritualized' poetry 
Message-ID: <129.62f9dff9.302fb4a2@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/13/2005 2:32:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> As an aside: There are certain poet-critics, and Sadoff strikes
> me as one of them, whom whenever I read them I can't help but think that 
> most 
> of what is driving their reviews is a sense of having been 'overlooked' or 
> 'undervalued' as poets. They have grievances that 
> are personal that they attempt to recast as an objective acrimony
> brought forth through keen critical insight.
> Finnegan

I was struck the same way:

Even a cursory glance at the current sites of authority in poetry--that is to 
say, who chooses book prizes, who anthologizes, who awards grants (signs that 
always reflect the values of the dominant culture)--also illustrates these 
changing values. This shift reverberates generationally, not only through the 
handing down of book prizes, but in the way young artists naturally model their 
work after accomplished teachers (most graduate writing programs market their 
programs by listing their most "successful" students). 

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From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 16:40:48 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:40:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin><003b01c5a034$8ff77530$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005601c5a038$84ca7280$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <007601c5a047$49ca8b20$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> This approach to poetry *coexists* with other ways of describing it.  (A
> parallel taxonomy, Bob?)
>
> Robin

No.  For me, Robin, a way of gushing about poetry--unless Graves has some 
objective definition of magic.  Not that gushing doesn't have its place.


>> Seems to me like saying poetry needs to have emotional power or the like.
>
> It's a little more complicated than that, Bob

>>I
>> have no problem with painting pretty pictures of poetry, but . . .  So, 
>> is
>> there some objective definition of "magic" that I'm missing, Robin?
>>
>> --Bob
>
> I'm not entirely happy with the term "magic" myself, but I'm even less 
> happy
> with something like "the psychodynamics of creation", so I'll stick to
> magic.

The closest thing I can think of would be "clear though not necessarily 
explicit connection to fundamental archetypal truths, with those truths 
listed."  To connect to the Muse Figure you speak of, which may work.  (I'm 
not sure of that, because I don't know how archetypal the Muse Figure would 
be--mainly because I haven't thought about it that much.)  Certainly not 
some other single word or phrase.  But that leaves out all the other 
connotations of "magic" that its being used by Graves as a term can't divest 
it of, such as unnamable ethereality.  The term seems, in simple English, 
near-totally null--a mere synonym for "good stuff"--or even circularly 
"ingredient which is required for real poetry."

The quotation seems foolish to me, too, because functionaries often use 
"magic," even of the archetypal kind, and do so effectively, and lousy poets 
who are functionaries use it, too--ineffectively.  Okay poems can be 
composed without it, too--by non-functionaries.

> But I'm also unhappy with talking about this in the abstract, so if we go
> back to my earlier instance of Shakespeare's Sonnets.
>
> There we have (in my reading, and I admit there are others), the Young Man
> is the Muse Figure.  (In fact, he's specifically an example of the
> Inaccessible Muse that would go back to [at least] Petrarch and Dante and
> takes in the whole range of poems-written-to-dead-wives.)  He's also the
> content and [overt] addressee in the sequence -- the poems are both about
> him [among other things, obviously] and [formally] addressed to him. 
> (Note
> the change when we get to 126 and the poems *about* but not *to* the Dark
> Lady.)  But he's not the final addressee since the poems are read by 
> others
> after they're published ...
>
> Other things as well, but I'll stop there for the moment.
>
> So what I'm [confusedly?] saying is that there's a whole range of things,
> both aspects of the poems as they exist as [formal] public objects; and
> also as part of the poet's  -- or some poets' -- creative process.
>
> I agree it's muddle (though the muddle may be mostly me) but I think in
> rejecting it out of hand, "magic" or whatever we call this, you're in 
> danger
> of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Bob.
>
> Robin

Not if one has a replacement--or is trying to find one.

--Bob 





From chris.lott  Sat Aug 13 16:49:16 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:49:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <006401c5a045$0e33a3a0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
	<006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
	<1123961832.31001.263.camel@malatesta>
	<006401c5a045$0e33a3a0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05081313495f7e8ae4@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/13/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> Read what he said: "And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly
> piss some people off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth."

No, YOU read. The claim is: "I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib
could be seen as Aushcwitz in embryo."

The point of all this is not comparing Auschwitz to Abu Ghraib in
terms of degree, but of a kind: a systemic evil. And writing about it
*after*.

If Adorno would have it that once exposed to such a great evil in
*reality* then there is really no place for frippery such as poetry, I
see Kent's chapbook (and it doesn't matter if his attempts are
fantastically powerful or horribly naive) as speaking directly back
and saying that isn't true. We are still capable of seeing evil for
what it is and speaking out about what is right with no small effect.
The latter is evidently true by all this discussion, the disagreement
with the former a matter of exposing pre-existing ideology.

I'm glad that Mike S. proves to be one of the good guys :) but sad
that he doesn't see a book of poems in protest as a valuable act, that
being protested apparently not high enough on the scale of evil to
warrant transgressing Adorno's ridiculous surmise.

c




From chris.lott  Sat Aug 13 16:51:39 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:51:39 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
In-Reply-To: <s2fdf16f.038@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s2fdf16f.038@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05081313511de046e8@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/13/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:
> Bob Grumman said, in resposne to comment by Bill Knott:
> 
> >> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
> >> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .
> 
> >How is this not pure bullshit?  Like just about all descriptions of
> poetry
> by poets.
> 
> 
> 
> My my. Lady Macbeth has a temper.

Angry reaction to the presence of truth? 

c




From amyhappens  Sat Aug 13 16:57:39 2005
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:57:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you're in NYC, we're celebrating tonight...
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab05081313511de046e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050813205739.67000.qmail@web81109.mail.yahoo.com>


www.amyking.org/blog

 

 

 

		
---------------------------------
 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
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From robin.hamilton2  Sat Aug 13 16:57:46 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:57:46 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin><1123962884.31001.267.camel@malatesta>
	<006b01c5a045$59147e30$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00a601c5a049$a965b940$f29c9951@Robin>

> Other ways of describing it?  Sure.  "Nice words," for example.  Or
> "something the makes the hair on the back of your neck jump up."

Interesting, Bob -- I'd thought of citing that later example myself as I was
pretty sure you'd side with Auden rather than Houseman over that particular
moment in a lecture that AEH gave years ago -- was it "The Name and Nature
of Poetry"? -- where Auden was present in the audience as I think then still
an undergraduate.

> I'm merely
> high-temperaturedly suggesting that if we want to discuss what poetry is,
we
> shouldn't use terms dependent, as this one seem to be but may not
(enlighten
> me if not), on vague terms based on subjective feelings.
>
> --Bob G.

Well, you have a point about the vagueness of the whole thing, Bob.

But ...

It's a starting point, at least.  And you still haven't responded to me that
your own view -- necessarily, given your overall stance -- excludes what
might tortuously be called "valid material" about poetry, which is more than
*simply* "subjective".  It may be "personal" -- or inter-personal, as I was
suggesting in naming a range of poets who all exploit the Muse figure
without an appeal to classical mythology --  but that's a different matter.

The Green Ink Syndrome.

Auden's negative reaction didn't invalidate the physiological effect that
Houseman pointed to that reading (some) poetry has on (some) people
(sometimes).

As far as I know, Houseman never made a riposte (if he even knew of Auden's
complaint, which was that Houseman had set back English poetry by twenty
years -- I quote from memory, no text to hand ***).  Not that I'm about to
try and make one for him at this ditance in time.

But I suspect this is an argument between an elephant and a whale -- 
Houseman, the echtlate-English Romantic Poet meets Auden the Ultimate
English Formalist Of His Time.

Robin

*** I can't be bothered to check just at this moment, but I think it's
documented in the first volume of Mendelson's biography of Auden.

R.





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 17:00:42 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:00:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's critique of 'spiritualized' poetry 
References: <129.62f9dff9.302fb4a2@cs.com>
Message-ID: <009401c5a04a$114d9b90$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

    As an aside: There are certain poet-critics, and Sadoff strikes
    me as one of them, whom whenever I read them I can't help but think that most 
    of what is driving their reviews is a sense of having been 'overlooked' or 
    'undervalued' as poets. They have grievances that 
    are personal that they attempt to recast as an objective acrimony
    brought forth through keen critical insight.
    Finnegan

  But aren't there also certain poet-critics whose reviews one can't help but think are driven by a sense of being properly valued.  They have virtues that 
  are personal that they attempt to recast as an objective approbation brought forth through keen critical insight?

  Bottom line: of course, ALL critics push their kind of poetry.  The difference between the stasguard critics and critics like me is that the stasguards can ignore the poetries competing with their kind because the ignored poetry's near-invisiblity keeps people from recognizing what the critics are doing, but critics like me can't, because the poetries competing with ouors are all over the place.

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames  Sat Aug 13 17:15:04 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:15:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
Message-ID: <79.4b77d396.302fbcd8@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/12/2005 7:23:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes:
like the monstrous Sadaam Hussein  
and the South and Central American death squad creators -- learned  
their trade from the fascists, but, unlike them, are never compared  
to the fascists becasue their target is the West.
I'm confused...
S. Hussein was quite well-favored by the West...while
it was convenient for us. Bushies first made the idiotic comparison
to Hitler/fascism; while the Left, I dare say, was too well
versed in history to draw such an absurd association.
Hussein was no different from a thousand other murderous
dictators we happily co-existed with until it became 
embarrassing or suddenly not in our interests to look
the other way. 

It was only Hitler's imperialist designs that got him trouble.
Sadly, he'd probably have died in office had he not started
blitzing his neighbors. 

But I want to get back to poetry for a moment. Political poetry
doesn't have to do anything more than be politically-minded
speech. (One hopes for a certain art in that speech; but
that's not requisite.) It doesn't have to correct past wrongs, it
doesn't have to fairmindedly give two sides of a position. 
Hopefully it's historically aware enough not to make too many 
laughable gaffes, but it's meant to be a charged/provocative 
exercise of free speech. We get to judge political poetry as 
poetry but the politics speak for themselves; which is to say we 
can't blame the poetry for the politics because the poetry 
is merely the vehicle. 
Finnegan
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From MillB  Sat Aug 13 17:15:12 2005
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:15:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Almanac Strikes Back
Message-ID: <20d.6fa3edd.302fbce0@aol.com>

Hi Tad,
 
Thanks for that!  Wonder what the "offensive" poem (s) was?   Anyone know?  
Would be some fodder for discussion. . .
 
Mill
 
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From JforJames  Sat Aug 13 17:38:57 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:38:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
Message-ID: <146.4a92cb55.302fc271@aol.com>

Can't help myself, but I'll jump in and say that
'magic' has some relationship to the 'sacred'...good
luck trying to root that one out of the culture.
Secondly, 'magic', for Stevens and others, was
really only a earthly guise of the 'imagination'.
Finally, as I help organize a Poetry and Philosophy
coference, I will say that I believe: Poetry is
the last stand of the metaphysicians. When it
is lost, then 'poof,' everything will harden, with
only robots left to polish the statues of the dead.
Finnegan

In a message dated 8/13/2005 4:58:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:
-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Other ways of describing it?  Sure.  "Nice words," for example.  Or
> "something the makes the hair on the back of your neck jump up."

Interesting, Bob -- I'd thought of citing that later example myself as I was
pretty sure you'd side with Auden rather than Houseman over that particular
moment in a lecture that AEH gave years ago -- was it "The Name and Nature
of Poetry"? -- where Auden was present in the audience as I think then still
an undergraduate.

> I'm merely
> high-temperaturedly suggesting that if we want to discuss what poetry is,
we
> shouldn't use terms dependent, as this one seem to be but may not
(enlighten
> me if not), on vague terms based on subjective feelings.
>
> --Bob G.

Well, you have a point about the vagueness of the whole thing, Bob.

But ...

It's a starting point, at least.  And you still haven't responded to me that
your own view -- necessarily, given your overall stance -- excludes what
might tortuously be called "valid material" about poetry, which is more than
*simply* "subjective".  It may be "personal" -- or inter-personal, as I was
suggesting in naming a range of poets who all exploit the Muse figure
without an appeal to classical mythology --  but that's a different matter.

The Green Ink Syndrome.

Auden's negative reaction didn't invalidate the physiological effect that
Houseman pointed to that reading (some) poetry has on (some) people
(sometimes).

As far as I know, Houseman never made a riposte (if he even knew of Auden's
complaint, which was that Houseman had set back English poetry by twenty
years -- I quote from memory, no text to hand ***).  Not that I'm about to
try and make one for him at this ditance in time.

But I suspect this is an argument between an elephant and a whale -- 
Houseman, the echtlate-English Romantic Poet meets Auden the Ultimate
English Formalist Of His Time.

Robin

*** I can't be bothered to check just at this moment, but I think it's
documented in the first volume of Mendelson's biography of Auden.

R.
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From robin.hamilton2  Sat Aug 13 17:51:09 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:51:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin><003b01c5a034$8ff77530$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005601c5a038$84ca7280$f29c9951@Robin>
	<007601c5a047$49ca8b20$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00c001c5a051$20821bc0$f29c9951@Robin>

> No.  For me, Robin, a way of gushing about poetry--unless Graves has some
> objective definition of magic.  Not that gushing doesn't have its place.

Actually, that's a perfectly fair misinterpretation of what I was suggesting
about Graves, given how muddled I'm being.  I went through the whole Graves
bit from beginning to end at a Tender and Impressionable Age and I've still
the scars (and the books on my shelves) to prove it.

But I *wasn't* suggesting (I can't speak for Uche here) that I'd go,
especially now, [remotely] near the whole way with Robert Graves' commentary
on the Muse, or other areas of his prose writing.

[Graves-the-poet is a separate issue,]

In fact, it's over this very issue that I became *acutely* dissatisfied with
his work (which you curiously echo below, so it gives me a chance to argue
with the living rather than the dead).

> > I'm not entirely happy with the term "magic" myself, but I'm even less
> > happy
> > with something like "the psychodynamics of creation", so I'll stick to
> > magic.
>
> The closest thing I can think of would be "clear though not necessarily
> explicit connection to fundamental archetypal truths, with those truths
> listed."

Yeah, Jung lives -- and Micea Eliade.  <And god help us, Joseph Campbell.>
But again, though I've been there, I'm somewhere else now.  <Not Campbell -- 
I never *could* stick his work.>

[This unnervingly echoes a face-to-face conversation I had a week or two
ago, but I don't want to take my interlocutor's name or ideas in vain.
Which is a shame, as he could make a better case here than I can.]

> To connect to the Muse Figure you speak of, which may work.  (I'm
> not sure of that, because I don't know how archetypal the Muse Figure
would
> be--mainly because I haven't thought about it that much.)

Well, exactly -- and first of all I'd want to draw a *sharp* distiction
between the Muse (ala Graves and the entire mythical and archetypal baggage
this brings with it) and the Muse Figure (which is locally and historically
constrained).

Not that I don't think there's an element of interest in the Muse per se, or
even the wider question of elements in poetry which we're losely connecting
to "magic", but that's another issue.

Crudely (and oversimply) the classical Muse (figure) was a goddess.
(Catullus and Ovid wrote *about* living women, but they were the content of
their verse, never Muse Figures as such.)

The shift occurs very precisely with Dante and Petrarch when you suddenly
get the Inaccessible Muse Figure -- a living human being, in both cases a
female but inaccessible because (a) religious and (b) [eventually] dead.

Cut this through many subsequent European poets, usually writing sonnets
(and include Gaspara Stampa, perhaps) ...

        'Noli me tangere, for Caesar's I am,
        And wild for to hold though I seem tame.'

So anyway, Shakespeare (Muse Figure inaccessible because the wrong sex) and
Henry King, Donne, Milton, in the present day Peter Porter and Douglas Dunn,
and Hughes, where the muse is a dead wife ...

Marvell?  But raises an whole other kettle of worms ...

Now you could argue that (a) I'm talking rubbish or (b) that what I'm
describing is simply a variant on the old idea of genre -- the genre of the
human but inaccessible muse, perhaps -- though I think it's more than that.

I'm prepared to argue on both grounds but (having gone on more than long
enough already), won't till challenged.

            <g>

[Graves / Magic / SNIP]

[Sonnets / SNIP]

> > I agree it's muddle (though the muddle may be mostly me) but I think in
> > rejecting it out of hand, "magic" or whatever we call this, you're in
> > danger
> > of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Bob.
> >
> > Robin
>
> Not if one has a replacement--or is trying to find one.
>
> --Bob

Go with that, Bob, but I don't think you've provided one yet.  But perhaps
no one can *inside* the range of your taxonomy as you deploy it.

But I may be wrong.

Cheers,

Robin





From tad  Sat Aug 13 17:53:39 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:53:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Almanac Strikes Back
References: <20d.6fa3edd.302fbce0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f301c5a051$7a02b4c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Mill - they've been posted -- check your back mail. Two poems (one by Don Justice) that used the word "breast," one that said "get high" (but in a negative context -- I wouldn't get high with him).

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MillB at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Almanac Strikes Back


  Hi Tad,

  Thanks for that!  Wonder what the "offensive" poem (s) was?  Anyone know?  Would be some fodder for discussion. . .

  Mill



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From robin.hamilton2  Sat Aug 13 18:04:45 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:04:45 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <146.4a92cb55.302fc271@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010701c5a053$045bc520$f29c9951@Robin>

<<
Can't help myself, but I'll jump in and say that
'magic' has some relationship to the 'sacred'...good
luck trying to root that one out of the culture.
...
Finnegan
>>

How about Rudolph Otto's concept of the numinous that he explores in +The
Idea of the Holy+?

I've been trying to think of not an end point, but maybe a starting point in
taking on Bob's point, and I think that might be where it's at for me.

Robin





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 18:10:26 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:10:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <s2fdf16f.038@mail.highland.edu>
	<9b1b9dab05081313511de046e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c5a053$cf439650$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 8/13/05, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:
>> Bob Grumman said, in resposne to comment by Bill Knott:
>>
>> >> If the poet disowns his magic side, he disowns poetry
>> >> and becomes a functionary and a propagandist. . . .
>>
>> >How is this not pure bullshit?  Like just about all descriptions of
>> poetry
>> by poets.
>>
>>
>>
>> My my. Lady Macbeth has a temper.
>
> Angry reaction to the presence of truth?
>
> c

Whose?  The one doing the name-calling or the one asking a question? 
Interesting that you now seem to understand Kent's claim that the degree to 
which one is angered by a claim is an index of its truth.

--Grumman
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 18:16:04 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:16:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin><1123962884.31001.267.camel@malatesta><006b01c5a045$59147e30$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00a601c5a049$a965b940$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <00b701c5a054$995a0dc0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I have no problem with the idea that good poetry has dramatic emotional 
effects, just the use of that as a definition.  Lots of things that are not 
poetry have dramatic emotional effects.

I'm working on the objective attributes of poetry, but among them are the 
obvious ones of meter, rhyme, alliteration, metaphor, freshness of 
language--which, ocme to think of, I HAVE listed at least once at 
New-Poetry, inviting the poets and poetry lovers here to suggest changes 
and, especially, additions.  No takers.

Poetry has not-so-objective attributes, too, which is where "magic" sneaks 
in.  But I think they can be made partially objective as things that a 
majority of informed judges can agree on, such as whether a given poem 
connects to something  of archetypal substance.

--Bob 





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 18:18:53 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:18:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <146.4a92cb55.302fc271@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d101c5a054$fe260a10$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Poetry is the last stand of the metaphysicians.  

Okay, but should poetics be, too? 

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 18:32:31 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:32:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu><1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta><002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin><003b01c5a034$8ff77530$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005601c5a038$84ca7280$f29c9951@Robin><007601c5a047$49ca8b20$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00c001c5a051$20821bc0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <00da01c5a056$e5eb6c90$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

"Numinous" I can take a lot better than "magic," but it still seems, 
finally, a bullshit term.  A name for that which a critic can find wherever 
he wants to, and find unpresent where he wants to.  To reply to your next 
post, Robin.

>> No.  For me, Robin, a way of gushing about poetry--unless Graves has some
>> objective definition of magic.  Not that gushing doesn't have its place.

> Actually, that's a perfectly fair misinterpretation of what I was 
> suggesting
> about Graves, given how muddled I'm being.  I went through the whole 
> Graves
> bit from beginning to end at a Tender and Impressionable Age and I've 
> still
> the scars (and the books on my shelves) to prove it.

I was trying, in MY muddled way, to indicate how "magic" comes across for 
me, not to interpret you.

Snip of interesting material I mostly agree with, and extraneous but 
interesting (and enjoyable) comments.

> Now you could argue that (a) I'm talking rubbish or (b) that what I'm
> describing is simply a variant on the old idea of genre -- the genre of 
> the
> human but inaccessible muse, perhaps -- though I think it's more than 
> that.

I don't feel subject-matter can or should define a genre.  Theme?  Anyway, I 
don't take what you've said as rubbish, but a kind of appreciation of the 
value of one specific kind of what we might very loosely term "archetypal 
magic" that I would want much less loosely defined.

Is that a challenge?  Who knows.

--Bob 





From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 19:01:42 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:01:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
Message-ID: <s2fe35a2.070@mail.highland.edu>

Bob Grumman said,

>Jim Behrle made a few slightly negative comments at his blog about
Ken'ts collection of 
poetry, and Kent has reacted to that the way you claim Kent's
sanctimonious 
oppressors are reacting to him.


Bob, this is just ridiculous. I'm not going to get into any kind of
discussion of the Jim Behrle fracas, so don't try to draw me into that.
But I do invite anyone to compare the tone and content of my response to
him to the utterly theatrical ad hominem attacks directed against me
later on his blog and elsewhere.  http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/

Mind you, I found it all quite entertaining and instructive. I was not
and am not upset about it in the least. 

As for the Lady Macbeth thing, that was pretty funny and you know it.

And thank you, Uche, for your thoughtful comments...

Kent








From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 19:22:05 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:22:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Beckett comment on Lyric Poetry after
Message-ID: <s2fe3a59.073@mail.highland.edu>

Tom Beckett is someone I've thought very highly of for a long time. He's
done remarkable work over many years as an editor, critic, and poet. So
his comment on LPAA here means a lot to me. 

http://worderos.blogspot.com/

Thank you, Mr. Beckett!

Kent



From chris.lott  Sat Aug 13 19:34:40 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:34:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
In-Reply-To: <00b201c5a053$cf439650$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2fdf16f.038@mail.highland.edu>
	<9b1b9dab05081313511de046e8@mail.gmail.com>
	<00b201c5a053$cf439650$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0508131634588ba3d@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/13/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> Whose?  The one doing the name-calling or the one asking a question?
> Interesting that you now seem to understand Kent's claim that the degree to
> which one is angered by a claim is an index of its truth.

I'm not sure why I would "now seem to understand" when I've never
*not* understood Kent's claim. I haven't taken a position on it.

But in reality, it's far simpler than that: that you got all atwitter
over yet another definition of poetry made me laugh :) You're
reactions to definitions are a joke that never grows old...

c




From chris.lott  Sat Aug 13 19:37:18 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:37:18 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and magic
In-Reply-To: <00da01c5a056$e5eb6c90$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B51@mail.emerson.edu>
	<1123952662.31001.247.camel@malatesta>
	<002d01c5a02f$9fe6b050$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004701c5a033$d84b0aa0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<003b01c5a034$8ff77530$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005601c5a038$84ca7280$f29c9951@Robin>
	<007601c5a047$49ca8b20$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00c001c5a051$20821bc0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<00da01c5a056$e5eb6c90$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab050813163750307055@mail.gmail.com>

This kind of complete disconnect has been the fodder of so many
cartoons, jokes, and telling anecdotes. One person talks about being
love, the other talks about its definition in objective terms. Who's
ultimately happier?

Is there a reason it never gets tired (or is that just an illusion
because people can never let it go)?

c




From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 19:40:15 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:40:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
References: <s2fe35a2.070@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <011701c5a060$5b903850$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Bob Grumman said,
>
>>Jim Behrle made a few slightly negative comments at his blog about
> Ken'ts collection of
> poetry, and Kent has reacted to that the way you claim Kent's
> sanctimonious
> oppressors are reacting to him.
>

Actually, Bob Grumman said,  "As far as I can tell, and I haven't 
investigated it very efficiently, Jim Behrle made a few slightly negative 
comments at his blog about Ken'ts collection of poetry, and Kent has reacted 
to that the way you claim Kent's sanctimonious oppressors are reacting to 
him.  He just answered my criticism of the text
about poetry you like by speaking of my temper and comparing me to Lady 
Macbeth.  Real intelligent, yeah.  And he's ignored my question about the 
ability of claims about the Holocaust to piss people off being "an index" of 
their validity."

Note, in particular, my disclaimer.  Kent's snipping that seems typical of 
him, as typical as his again ignoring my question.

> Bob, this is just ridiculous. I'm not going to get into any kind of
> discussion of the Jim Behrle fracas, so don't try to draw me into that.
> But I do invite anyone to compare the tone and content of my response to
> him to the utterly theatrical ad hominem attacks directed against me
> later on his blog and elsewhere.  http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/
>
> Mind you, I found it all quite entertaining and instructive. I was not
> and am not upset about it in the least.
>
> As for the Lady Macbeth thing, that was pretty funny and you know it.

I frankly didn't get it.  I guess there's a connection between magic and 
Lady Macbeth, but . . .  Well, anything to avoid my question, I guess.

> And thank you, Uche, for your thoughtful comments...

Thoughtful agreement--which makes me suddenly realize how likely it is that 
Uche is Kent, something that didn't strike me before because I'm one of 
those who tends to accept things at face-value.

--Bob G. 





From chris.lott  Sat Aug 13 19:54:31 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:54:31 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
In-Reply-To: <011701c5a060$5b903850$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2fe35a2.070@mail.highland.edu>
	<011701c5a060$5b903850$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05081316542df49d0a@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/13/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> Thoughtful agreement--which makes me suddenly realize how likely it is that
> Uche is Kent, something that didn't strike me before because I'm one of
> those who tends to accept things at face-value.

Ooohh, conspiracy theories. Can I play too? I am Kent Johnson. I am
Kent Johnson. Oh wait, that's a Nike commercial.

Incidentally, I'm not sure why anger shouldn't be seen as at least one
potential indices of measuring truth. It certainly seems to be true
when talking about *people*... the close to the truth you get, the
angrier they tend to get (and I'm certainly no exception). It's just
the kind of off-the-cuff, folkloric diagnosis that so often turns out
to be true.

c




From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 19:58:54 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:58:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] apocrypha
Message-ID: <s2fe430f.079@mail.highland.edu>

Bob Grumman said:

>which makes me suddenly realize how likely it is that 
Uche is Kent, something that didn't strike me before because I'm one of

those who tends to accept things at face-value.


Bob, it's funny you should say that, because I was just sitting here
thinking to myself how likely it is that you are Mike Snider! 

cheers,

Kent (one of the good guys in the Earl of Oxford's King Lear)




From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 20:05:11 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:05:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
Message-ID: <s2fe4478.081@mail.highland.edu>

Have you ever noticed that Bob spelled backwards is *still* Bob? 

Hmmm.

And that Mike spelled backwards is Ekim, which is the Basque equivalent
of "Bob"?

Double hmmm...

Tnek



From Rsgwynn1  Sat Aug 13 20:25:00 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:25:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
Message-ID: <85.2d9fd5ad.302fe95c@cs.com>

Sam spelled backwards is "mas," as in "no mas."
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From Kent.Johnson  Sat Aug 13 20:39:11 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:39:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
Message-ID: <s2fe4c7a.086@mail.highland.edu>

Rgwynn said:

>Sam spelled backwards is "mas," as in "no mas."


In Spanish, the question "?Pero hombre, por que no?  ?Acaso no hay
lugar en una lista de poesia nueva para un poquitito de buen humor?"

Which in English means "But why not, pray tell? Is there no room on a
new poetry list for a teensy weensy bit of good humor?"

We can do the dozens a bit without getting mad, can't we?



From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 20:42:09 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:42:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
References: <s2fe35a2.070@mail.highland.edu><011701c5a060$5b903850$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab05081316542df49d0a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012601c5a069$015f7310$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I figured it'd be Kent who'd hit me with the bit about conspiracy theories; 
I figured his apprentice would ask if I considered him an Enemy of Poetry. 
(I don't.  He's just an Enemy of Reason.)

--Bob G. 





From MillB  Sat Aug 13 20:43:33 2005
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:43:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Almanac Strikes Back
Message-ID: <1a5.3c411919.302fedb5@aol.com>

Thanks Tad--
 
I've been busy with two projects and a couple of the theatre reviews  
(haven't been paying as close attention to The List as I have in the  past).  I'll 
look at back postings.  
 
Sorry to be obtuse.
 
Cheers,
 
Mill
 

I'm all  in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools.
Let's start  with typewriters.

Frank Lloyd  Wright
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From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 13 20:46:14 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:46:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
References: <s2fe4c7a.086@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <013201c5a069$92f9c5a0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Which in English means "But why not, pray tell? Is there no room on a
> new poetry list for a teensy weensy bit of good humor?"

New-Poetry has always been about 77% comic exchanges.

> We can do the dozens a bit without getting mad, can't we?
>

Who's mad?  But why not a little seriousness, and answering of questions, 
too?  (And why haven't you been laughing at Behrle's comic bits?)

--Bob G.






From tad  Sat Aug 13 20:47:14 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:47:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
References: <85.2d9fd5ad.302fe95c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <014001c5a069$ba122a10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Is dat Tad? Si!

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 8:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?


  Sam spelled backwards is "mas," as in "no mas." 


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From Rsgwynn1  Sun Aug 14 00:25:12 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 00:25:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
Message-ID: <127.623b46ef.303021a8@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/13/2005 7:39:58 PM Central Daylight Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 
> 
> We can do the dozens a bit without getting mad, can't we?


Re. no mas, I was just thinking of Carlos "Hands of Stone" Monzon.
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From clitophon  Sun Aug 14 07:11:47 2005
From: clitophon (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 04:11:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?S_O_P_H_O_K_L_E_S_/_H_=D6_L_D_E_R_L_?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?I_N?=
In-Reply-To: <8fd27d4b86d8ffa39e22d1a44dab4817@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20050814111147.97362.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com>

Last night I went to see Antigone at the Glyptothek in
K?nigsplatz, in the translation of H?lderlin from
Sophokles.  

A very bad ensemble performance.  The cast were
dressed in (what they supposed to be) the garb of
ancient Thebes with faces daubed with white paint,
like the black and white minstrel show in reverse. 
There was much running about, movement of a
non-balletic kind, whistling and Creon reeling off
speech after speech.  In fact Creon (Ronnie Janot) was
the only actor of any real substance and quite clearly
held the whole thing together while the rest went
through the motions of acting, sometimes in a complete
and inadvertently hilarious manner.  Although the
German of H?lderlin was impenetrable to me (H?lderlin
was also in the throes of schizophrenia when he made
the translation and probably spent his days either in
manacles or receiving cold water therapy, a popular
medicine of the time since it was perceived to have a
calming effect.) it was also probably completely
impenetrable to everyone, even to those who spoke
fluent Bayerisch or HochDeutsch, since H?lderlin?s
German is so archaic, peppered with very obscure
references to the Classics and also written at a time
when the consciousness of H?lderlin was fractured.  

The real problem with the play was the production
values or the complete absence of thought about
context and performance.  Why not try to update this
classic to the contemporary world?  The theme of the
play (Creon?s refusal to allow Antigone?s and Ismene?s
brother Polynices rites of burial, something that went
against the grain of Greek society.) could easily be
connected to any number of contemporary events. 
Apparantly there are more than sixty different
translations of the play, by Brecht, Jean Anouilh and
many others.  H?lderlin was writing in the aftermath
of the French Revolution, at the beginnings of the era
of mass society, a time quite remote to Sophocles and
the events depicted in the play.  The importance of
the play is in the way in which it helps the
contemporary audience to connect to the political
events that are happening at the time not in
re-imagining the play in the context of Sophocles and
then failing to refract it through the lens of
H?lderlin?s era too.  The production fitted in very
nicely with the context of the Glyptothek but this
reviewer can?t help but feel that Sophocles? statuette
was frowning or glowering broadly (or falling from its
plinth, the long dead playwright experiencing a
posthumous cardiac arrest).

www.theengine.net


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 



From JforJames  Sun Aug 14 10:20:10 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:20:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
Message-ID: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com>

http://bostonreview.net/BR30.3/longenbach.html

Poetry is Poetry
James Longenbach 

Where Shall I Wander
John Ashbery
Ecco, $22.95 (cloth) 

Selected Prose
John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie
University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth) 

8 "Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be joined," said 
John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 1966. "It does not 
advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills of modern society; it does not speak 
out against the war in Vietnam or in favor of civil rights; it does not paint 
gothic vignettes of the post-Atomic age." Writing these sentences was like 
waving a red cape: the bull appeared in the form of the poet Louis Simpson, who 
accused Ashbery of "sneering at the conscience of other poets." Sneering? 
Ashbery is our greatest master of tone, and over the last 50 years he may have 
smiled or smirked, prodded or provoked, but he has never sneered.
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From tad  Sun Aug 14 10:32:12 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:32:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
References: <127.623b46ef.303021a8@cs.com>
Message-ID: <001301c5a0dc$f8b751a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Wasn't it Roberto Duran? Against Sugar Ray Leonard?

Remember the old joke? The Roberto Duran cocktail -- you drink eight rounds and then you get up off the barstool and say "No mas."


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?


  In a message dated 8/13/2005 7:39:58 PM Central Daylight Time, Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 


    We can do the dozens a bit without getting mad, can't we?



  Re. no mas, I was just thinking of Carlos "Hands of Stone" Monzon. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 10:30:56 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:30:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Poetry is Poetry
James Longenbach 

Where Shall I Wander
John Ashbery
Ecco, $22.95 (cloth) 

Selected Prose
John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie
University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth) 

"Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be joined," said John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 1966. "It does not advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills of modern society; it does not speak out against the war in Vietnam or in favor of civil rights; it does not paint gothic vignettes of the post-Atomic age." Writing these sentences was like waving a red cape: the bull appeared in the form of the poet Louis Simpson, who accused Ashbery of "sneering at the conscience of other poets." Sneering? Ashbery is our greatest master of tone, and over the last 50 years he may have smiled or smirked, prodded or provoked, but he has never sneered.

The Ashbery quote seems to me surprisingly philistine: what seems to him important about O'Hara's poetry is its subject matter.  That is, it is defined by its subject matter.  Or its lack of certain subject matter.  It does seem to me that Ashbery is much more interested in what poetry can say than in what poetry can do.  What poetry can say seems to me a concern for the smallest-minded lovers of poetry only.  For the people Kooser serves as poet laureate, and Keillor reads to, that is.  

--Bob G.
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From JforJames  Sun Aug 14 10:53:28 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:53:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
Message-ID: <199.452686c9.3030b4e8@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/14/2005 12:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> >> 
>> We can do the dozens a bit without getting mad, can't we?
> 
> 
> Re. no mas, I was just thinking of Carlos "Hands of Stone" Monzon. 
> 

I thought "No mas, no mas," was Roberto Duran's gloves down line.
Finnegan
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From Kent.Johnson  Sun Aug 14 11:00:59 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:00:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Josh Corey on Lyric Poetry
Message-ID: <s2ff1678.003@mail.highland.edu>

For those who may be interested, there is a thoughtful and eloquently
incisive consideration of Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz by Josh Corey,
here:

http://joshcorey.blogspot.com/

Kent





From jeff.newberry  Sun Aug 14 11:08:44 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:08:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
In-Reply-To: <002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com>
	<002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com>

I have to wonder: what on earth is wrong with content? 
 What's wrong with focusing on what poetry can say?
 I anticipate a venemous response filled with half-answers and ad hominems.
 Fire away.
 Jeff Newberry

 On 8/14/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> 
> Poetry is Poetry
> James Longenbach 
> 
> Where Shall I Wander
> John Ashbery
> Ecco, $22.95 (cloth) 
> 
> Selected Prose
> John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie
> University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth) 
> 
> "Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be joined," 
> said John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 1966. "It does not 
> advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills of modern society; it does 
> not speak out against the war in Vietnam or in favor of civil rights; it 
> does not paint gothic vignettes of the post-Atomic age." Writing these 
> sentences was like waving a red cape: the bull appeared in the form of the 
> poet Louis Simpson, who accused Ashbery of "sneering at the conscience of 
> other poets." Sneering? Ashbery is our greatest master of tone, and over the 
> last 50 years he may have smiled or smirked, prodded or provoked, but he has 
> never sneered.
> The Ashbery quote seems to me surprisingly philistine: what seems to him 
> important about O'Hara's poetry is its subject matter. That is, it is 
> defined by its subject matter. Or its lack of certain subject matter. It 
> does seem to me that Ashbery is much more interested in what poetry can say 
> than in what poetry can do. What poetry can say seems to me a concern for 
> the smallest-minded lovers of poetry only. For the people Kooser serves as 
> poet laureate, and Keillor reads to, that is. 
>  --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From tad  Sun Aug 14 11:22:14 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:22:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com><002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c5a0e3$f6197110$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

If you get too locked into saying what you mean, you run the danger of succeeding. And then you have what you mean, no more and no less.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery


  I have to wonder:  what on earth is wrong with content? 

  What's wrong with focusing on what poetry can say?

  I anticipate a venemous response filled with half-answers and ad hominems.

  Fire away.

  Jeff Newberry

   
  On 8/14/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
    Poetry is Poetry
    James Longenbach 

    Where Shall I Wander
    John Ashbery
    Ecco, $22.95 (cloth) 

    Selected Prose
    John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie 
    University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth) 

    "Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be joined," said John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 1966. "It does not advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills of modern society; it does not speak out against the war in Vietnam or in favor of civil rights; it does not paint gothic vignettes of the post-Atomic age." Writing these sentences was like waving a red cape: the bull appeared in the form of the poet Louis Simpson, who accused Ashbery of "sneering at the conscience of other poets." Sneering? Ashbery is our greatest master of tone, and over the last 50 years he may have smiled or smirked, prodded or provoked, but he has never sneered. 

    The Ashbery quote seems to me surprisingly philistine: what seems to him important about O'Hara's poetry is its subject matter.  That is, it is defined by its subject matter.  Or its lack of certain subject matter.  It does seem to me that Ashbery is much more interested in what poetry can say than in what poetry can do.  What poetry can say seems to me a concern for the smallest-minded lovers of poetry only.  For the people Kooser serves as poet laureate, and Keillor reads to, that is.  

    --Bob G.

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






  -- 
  "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
                                                     --Miguel de Unamuno

  Blog:   http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From halvard  Sun Aug 14 11:29:50 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:29:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
In-Reply-To: <005f01c5a0e3$f6197110$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com><002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com>
	<005f01c5a0e3$f6197110$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <38f4dca8c548dc283eafc24d408b3373@earthlink.net>

Not nearly venemous enough, Tad.

On Aug 14, 2005, at 11:22 AM, The Old Mole wrote:

> If you get too locked into saying what you mean, you run the danger of 
> succeeding. And then you have what you mean, no more and no less.
> ?
> ?
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jeff Newberry
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
>>
>> I have to wonder:? what on earth is wrong with content??
>> ?
>> What's wrong with focusing on what poetry can say?
>> ?
>> I anticipate a venemous response filled with half-answers and ad 
>> hominems.
>> ?
>> Fire away.
>> ?
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>> ?
>> On 8/14/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: Poetry is 
>> Poetry
>>> James Longenbach
>>>
>>> Where Shall I Wander
>>> John Ashbery
>>> Ecco, $22.95 (cloth)
>>>
>>> Selected Prose
>>> John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie
>>> University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth)?
>>>
>>> "Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be 
>>> joined," said John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 
>>> 1966. "It does not advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills 
>>> of modern society; it does not speak out against the war in Vietnam 
>>> or in favor of civil rights; it does not paint gothic vignettes of 
>>> the post-Atomic age." Writing these sentences was like waving a red 
>>> cape: the bull appeared in the form of the poet Louis Simpson, who 
>>> accused Ashbery of "sneering at the conscience of other poets." 
>>> Sneering? Ashbery is our greatest master of tone, and over the last 
>>> 50 years he may have smiled or smirked, prodded or provoked, but he 
>>> has never sneered.
>>> The Ashbery quote seems to me surprisingly philistine: what seems to 
>>> him important about O'Hara's poetry is its subject matter.? That is, 
>>> it is defined by its subject matter.? Or its lack of certain subject 
>>> matter.? It does seem to me that Ashbery is much more interested in 
>>> what poetry can say than in what poetry can do.? What poetry can say 
>>> seems to me a concern for the smallest-minded lovers of poetry 
>>> only.? For the people Kooser serves as poet laureate, and Keillor 
>>> reads to,?that is.?
>>> ?
>>> --Bob G.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? --Miguel de Unamuno
>>
>> Blog:?? http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/





From tad  Sun Aug 14 11:37:53 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:37:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com><002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com><005f01c5a0e3$f6197110$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<38f4dca8c548dc283eafc24d408b3373@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <007a01c5a0e6$25c97890$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'll work on it. By the 8th round, Jeff'll be saying, "No mas."

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery


Not nearly venemous enough, Tad.

On Aug 14, 2005, at 11:22 AM, The Old Mole wrote:

> If you get too locked into saying what you mean, you run the danger of 
> succeeding. And then you have what you mean, no more and no less.
>
>
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jeff Newberry
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
>> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
>>
>> I have to wonder: what on earth is wrong with content? What's wrong with 
>> focusing on what poetry can say?
>>
>> I anticipate a venemous response filled with half-answers and ad 
>> hominems.
>>
>> Fire away.
>>
>> Jeff Newberry
>>
>>
>> On 8/14/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: Poetry is 
>> Poetry
>>> James Longenbach
>>>
>>> Where Shall I Wander
>>> John Ashbery
>>> Ecco, $22.95 (cloth)
>>>
>>> Selected Prose
>>> John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie
>>> University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth)
>>> "Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be joined," 
>>> said John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 1966. "It does 
>>> not advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills of modern society; 
>>> it does not speak out against the war in Vietnam or in favor of civil 
>>> rights; it does not paint gothic vignettes of the post-Atomic age." 
>>> Writing these sentences was like waving a red cape: the bull appeared in 
>>> the form of the poet Louis Simpson, who accused Ashbery of "sneering at 
>>> the conscience of other poets." Sneering? Ashbery is our greatest master 
>>> of tone, and over the last 50 years he may have smiled or smirked, 
>>> prodded or provoked, but he has never sneered.
>>> The Ashbery quote seems to me surprisingly philistine: what seems to him 
>>> important about O'Hara's poetry is its subject matter. That is, it is 
>>> defined by its subject matter. Or its lack of certain subject matter. It 
>>> does seem to me that Ashbery is much more interested in what poetry can 
>>> say than in what poetry can do. What poetry can say seems to me a 
>>> concern for the smallest-minded lovers of poetry only. For the people 
>>> Kooser serves as poet laureate, and Keillor reads to, that is. --Bob G.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
>> --Miguel de Unamuno
>>
>> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
Hal   Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From Kent.Johnson  Sun Aug 14 11:44:01 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 10:44:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yasusada in Boston Globe
Message-ID: <s2ff2082.011@mail.highland.edu>

FYI, too, today's Boston Globe (in the Sunday Ideas section) has an
article by Hua Hsu that deals at length with the Araki Yasusada
controversy:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/ 

An excellent piece of journalism!

Kent





From jeff.newberry  Sun Aug 14 11:57:21 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:57:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
In-Reply-To: <007a01c5a0e6$25c97890$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com>
	<002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com>
	<005f01c5a0e3$f6197110$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<38f4dca8c548dc283eafc24d408b3373@earthlink.net>
	<007a01c5a0e6$25c97890$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <731bb17a05081408576d5b6788@mail.gmail.com>

I can say "Uncle," if you wish.
 Or, I can just say "No mas." How about, "No mas, Uncle Tad?"
 :- 0
 Jeff

 On 8/14/05, The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote: 
> 
> I'll work on it. By the 8th round, Jeff'll be saying, "No mas."
> 
> Tad Richards
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
> 
> 
> Not nearly venemous enough, Tad.
> 
> On Aug 14, 2005, at 11:22 AM, The Old Mole wrote:
> 
> > If you get too locked into saying what you mean, you run the danger of
> > succeeding. And then you have what you mean, no more and no less.
> >
> >
> > Tad Richards
> > www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Jeff Newberry
> >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 11:08 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
> >>
> >> I have to wonder: what on earth is wrong with content? What's wrong 
> with
> >> focusing on what poetry can say?
> >>
> >> I anticipate a venemous response filled with half-answers and ad
> >> hominems.
> >>
> >> Fire away.
> >>
> >> Jeff Newberry
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/14/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: Poetry is
> >> Poetry
> >>> James Longenbach
> >>>
> >>> Where Shall I Wander
> >>> John Ashbery
> >>> Ecco, $22.95 (cloth)
> >>>
> >>> Selected Prose
> >>> John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie
> >>> University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth)
> >>> "Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be joined,"
> >>> said John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 1966. "It 
> does
> >>> not advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills of modern society;
> >>> it does not speak out against the war in Vietnam or in favor of civil
> >>> rights; it does not paint gothic vignettes of the post-Atomic age."
> >>> Writing these sentences was like waving a red cape: the bull appeared 
> in
> >>> the form of the poet Louis Simpson, who accused Ashbery of "sneering 
> at
> >>> the conscience of other poets." Sneering? Ashbery is our greatest 
> master
> >>> of tone, and over the last 50 years he may have smiled or smirked,
> >>> prodded or provoked, but he has never sneered.
> >>> The Ashbery quote seems to me surprisingly philistine: what seems to 
> him
> >>> important about O'Hara's poetry is its subject matter. That is, it is
> >>> defined by its subject matter. Or its lack of certain subject matter. 
> It
> >>> does seem to me that Ashbery is much more interested in what poetry 
> can
> >>> say than in what poetry can do. What poetry can say seems to me a
> >>> concern for the smallest-minded lovers of poetry only. For the people
> >>> Kooser serves as poet laureate, and Keillor reads to, that is. --Bob 
> G.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
> >> --Miguel de Unamuno
> >>
> >> Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> Hal Serving the tristate area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From grahamd  Sun Aug 14 12:23:46 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:23:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Longenbach on Ashbery
In-Reply-To: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BF24DA41.13838%grahamd@ripon.edu>

These are dusty old arguments, of course.  I think it may be useful to point
out that there is potentially a huge difference between poetry that
foregrounds theme in the traditional sense of making apprehensible
statements, employing realistic description, putting characters into
dramatic situations, etc.--and poetry which specifically advocates
particular political programs.  Especially pushing political agendas in a
reductive, craft-be-damned way.

Equating all traditionally-inflected poetry with advocating "sex and dope as
a panacea for the ills of modern society," for example, *is* rather a straw
man argument.  I can see why someone like Simpson would have been
infuriated, just as I can imagine how Ashbery might giggle over Simpson's
earnestness.  I don't buy Longenbach's point here, incidentally:  Ashbery is
indeed sneering, as I hear it.

In case it's not apparent, I value both Simpson and Ashbery, though neither
would appear on my essential short-list, probably.  O'Hara would.

What's most interesting to me about Longenbach's article is his contention
that Ashbery's work of the past decade has been among his very best  ("the
most moving poems  of his long career").  That's an opinion I haven't seen
much.  Anyone else share it?  Mostly I've seen folks sigh a little at his
recent logorrhea, and speak of these late books as a gentle coda to a
distinguished career.



on 8/14/05 9:20 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

http://bostonreview.net/BR30.3/longenbach.html

Poetry is Poetry
James Longenbach 

Where Shall I Wander
John Ashbery
Ecco, $22.95 (cloth)

Selected Prose
John Ashbery, edited by Eugene Richie
University of Michigan, $29.95 (cloth)

8 "Frank O'Hara's poetry has no program and therefore cannot be joined,"
said John Ashbery after the death of his close friend in 1966. "It does not
advocate sex and dope as a panacea for the ills of modern society; it does
not speak out against the war in Vietnam or in favor of civil rights; it
does not paint gothic vignettes of the post-Atomic age." Writing these
sentences was like waving a red cape: the bull appeared in the form of the
poet Louis Simpson, who accused Ashbery of "sneering at the conscience of
other poets." Sneering? Ashbery is our greatest master of tone, and over the
last 50 years he may have smiled or smirked, prodded or provoked, but he has
never sneered.

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From cstroffo  Sun Aug 14 13:48:38 2005
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:48:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stroffolinski in Boston Globe
Message-ID: <200508141625.j7EGP1fh126498@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>



HEY, there's an AMAZIN HEADLINE STONY in this year's weekly 
       BALLSTON GLOB
         on the DISTURBING CONTROVERSY OF SILENCE
             the STROFFOLINSKI SCANDAL causes daily
             though not on the lord's day of course....

and check out my book, "LOW-FI POVERTRY AFTER PROZAC" for only $3000
         (that's what it costs to publish it I'm told)
              at. www.lyndieunitedkingdom.com
               soon to be up & running despite doctor's orders

C

----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Yasusada in Boston Globe
>Date: Sun, Aug 14, 2005, 7:44 AM
>

> FYI, too, today's Boston Globe (in the Sunday Ideas section) has an
> article by Hua Hsu that deals at length with the Araki Yasusada
> controversy:
> http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/
>
> An excellent piece of journalism!
>
> Kent
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd  Sun Aug 14 12:42:16 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:42:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on composition
Message-ID: <BF24DE97.1383D%grahamd@ripon.edu>


Composition 

We used to call it the boob tube,
but I guess they don't use tubes anymore.
Whatever, it serves a small purpose after waking
and before falling asleep. Today's news?
but is there such a thing as news,
or even oral history? Yes, when you want to go back
after a while and appraise the accumulation
of leaves, say in a sandbox.
The rest is rented depression,
available only in season
and the season is always next month,
a pure but troubled time.

That's why I don't go out much, though
staying at home never seemed much of an option..
And speaking of nutty concepts, surely "home"
is way up there on the list. I feel more certain about "now"
and "then," because they are close to me,
like lovers, though apparently not in love with me,
as I am with them. I like to call to them,
and sometimes they reply, out of the deep business of some dream.

--John Ashbery. Where Shall I Wander.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 12:49:02 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:49:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com><002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004101c5a0f0$13cc79d0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I have to wonder:  what on earth is wrong with content?

Jeff, this is a discussion of ideas.  Since you can neither read nor reason, you really ought to stay out of it.  (Note: where did I say there was something wrong with content?  Or "subject matter," which is actually what I was talking about.  To suggest that Ashbery's PRIMARY concern with subject matter indicates an inferior connection to poetry is NOT to suggest that there is something wrong with subject matter.) 

What's wrong with focusing on what poetry can say?

Bob: My friend Joe is flawed: his main, possibly only, concern in life is food.

Moron: What's wrong with food?

(Note: the above is a full answer with an insult, NOT an ad hominem, since an ad hominem is a philosophical term denoting the fallacy of saying someone is wrong about some X because of something about him rather than because of something about the X.)

I anticipate a venemous response filled with half-answers and ad hominems.

Fire away.

My goodness, how accurate you are about me.

One correction of what I said: an addition of the capitalized word to "What poetry can say seems to me a MAJOR concern for the smallest-minded lovers of poetry only."  This is merely an opinion of mine--hence, the "seems to me."  I would defend it with the proposition that art improves to the degree that it goes beyond constricted personal concerns.  That's "goes beyond," not "ignores."  

BG
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From chris.lott  Sun Aug 14 13:59:10 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:59:10 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
In-Reply-To: <004101c5a0f0$13cc79d0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com>
	<002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com>
	<004101c5a0f0$13cc79d0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0508141059bd11902@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, actually only Bob seems intent upon a most limited kind of
misreading here. All Ashbery has said is that O'Hara's work didn't
involve a "program" and outlined a few things that it was *not*. The
word "program" was presumably chosen carefully, as it implies far more
than "content" or "topic" but also the *effect*. A program is an
ideology, an agenda. Think: why use the word "program" instead of
these other, narrower substitutes?

Further, there is no way of telling what Ashbery thinks makes good
poetry solely from a short list of a few mistakes he's glad O'Hara
didn't make.

c




From Kent.Johnson  Sun Aug 14 14:19:50 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:19:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] question for Bob
Message-ID: <s2ff451d.056@mail.highland.edu>

Bob, 

At the risk of being called a moron, or being told I don't know how to
read or reason, I have to ask a question, though admitting that I
haven't read all the posts on the Ashbery thread, so maybe you have
answered this question already, and apologies if you already have... 

But what for you is Content and what is Form? Do your poetics draw a
clear distinction between them? Since you seem so worked up about the
matter, I assume you do have clear definitions for the "discrete" nature
of each?

Kent



From halvard  Sun Aug 14 14:31:59 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:31:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab0508141059bd11902@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com>
	<002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com>
	<004101c5a0f0$13cc79d0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0508141059bd11902@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eb9623c6afee608e3525c1212b23a60b@earthlink.net>


On Aug 14, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Chris Lott wrote:

> Further, there is no way of telling what Ashbery thinks makes good
> poetry solely from a short list of a few mistakes he's glad O'Hara
> didn't make.

We might find a clue, though, in the work of some of the poets
he's chosen to translate: e.g., Apollinaire, Jacob, Roussel.

Hal   		Serving the tristate area.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 15:07:15 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:07:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Attempt To Establish What Poetry Is
References: <BF24DE97.1383D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <007e01c5a103$64a0c9c0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Ashbery on compositionAt my blog, I'm into a series concerned with the question of why poetry exists.  My intent is to slowly form an understanding of poetry most people can agree to, starting
with a very simple generality.  It begins at the URL below.  Click "Next Entry" at the bottom for the second installment, which is so far the only other installment.

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00559.html

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 15:24:12 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:24:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Longenbach on Ashbery
References: <c4.2d7e8e35.3030ad1a@aol.com><002201c5a0dd$4d91bb20$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a05081408087b716476@mail.gmail.com><004101c5a0f0$13cc79d0$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab0508141059bd11902@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008a01c5a105$c123e270$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Actually, actually only Bob seems intent upon a most limited kind of
> misreading here. All Ashbery has said is that O'Hara's work didn't
> involve a "program" and outlined a few things that it was *not*. The
> word "program" was presumably chosen carefully, as it implies far more
> than "content" or "topic" but also the *effect*. A program is an
> ideology, an agenda. Think: why use the word "program" instead of
> these other, narrower substitutes?

Surprise: I think you're right.  The word "joined" is a final bit of 
evidence.  Still, Ashbery was focusing on the subject matter of O'Hara's 
poetry as what set it off from other poetries.

> Further, there is no way of telling what Ashbery thinks makes good
> poetry solely from a short list of a few mistakes he's glad O'Hara
> didn't make.

Yes, I knew that as I wrote my post, but I was in my attack-mode.  I don't 
know why: I've made almost $500 as a poet this year so far, which quadruples 
my career earnings as a poet.  I'm sure Ashbery has only made a few dollars 
more.

--Bob G. 





From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 15:38:54 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:38:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] question for Bob
References: <s2ff451d.056@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <008f01c5a107$ce78bf70$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Bob,
>
> At the risk of being called a moron, or being told I don't know how to
> read or reason, I have to ask a question, though admitting that I
> haven't read all the posts on the Ashbery thread, so maybe you have
> answered this question already, and apologies if you already have...
>
> But what for you is Content and what is Form? Do your poetics draw a
> clear distinction between them? Since you seem so worked up about the
> matter, I assume you do have clear definitions for the "discrete" nature
> of each?
>

Not worked up.  If the matter is subject matter/content.  I probably have 
clear definitions somewhere for all three but am not sure where.  Nothing 
original about them.  Subject matter is simply what the poem is 
denotationally or directly about. Content is everything that's in it, from 
subject matter to auditory effects.  Form is its shape or what it becomes if 
you replace its words with generalized terms for what they are.  It's the 
blueprint of the poem.  For example: syllable syllable syllable syllable 
syllable/ syllable syllable syllable syllable syllable syllable syllable/ 
syllable syllable syllable syllable syllable is the form of the (classic) 
haiku (in English).  It's playing with words, it seems to me, to call its 
form part of a poem's content--though, of course, the poem's form is part of 
the communicated poem.  As is the paper holding the poem, and whatever the 
paper is a page in, if anything, and the room or field or whatever the poem 
is being experienced in.  The point of terms is to distinguish significantly 
unlike things.  If you call form part of content, you then still have to 
divide content into--what?  Specifics, I would guess, and shape.  So, you 
can say a poem is content and form, or you can say a poem is content, and 
content is content-content and form, which seems silly to me.

Form is what's there before the poem exists.

--Bob G. 





From uche  Sun Aug 14 15:54:30 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:54:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <006401c5a045$0e33a3a0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu>
	<006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
	<1123961832.31001.263.camel@malatesta>
	<006401c5a045$0e33a3a0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1124049271.31001.290.camel@malatesta>

On Sat, 2005-08-13 at 16:24 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >> >> I mean, in other words, that Abu Ghraib could be seen as Aushcwitz in
> >> >> embryo. In fact, the "could be" is really too much of a
> >> >> qualification.
> >> >> And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly piss some people
> >> >> off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth.
> >> >>
> >> >> Kent
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > How interesting.  And is the ability to piss some people off of the
> >> > claim that the Holocaust never happened an index of its truth, as
> >> > well, Kent?
> >> >
> >> > --Bob G.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Thanks for mentioning that, Bob.
> >
> > I'll be sorry for jumping into this fray, but what a ludicrously
> > sanctimonious lot the members of this list can be.
> 
> Read what he said: "And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly 
> piss some people off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth."

I can disagree with what he said above without insisting that everything
else he said has been a trivialization of Ha Shoah.  In fact, it's this
excessively prosecutorial bent in the "discussion" of Kent's comparison
that makes it clear to me that an extraordinary standard is at play
here.  Specifically, some people on this list consider it an abomination
to even make an oblique comparison of anything else to Ha Shoah, which
compels my counter-charge of ludicrous sanctimony.


> Kent fails to 
> distort the truth at times only because he doesn't know what it is.  As far 
> as I can tell, and I haven't investigated it very efficiently, Jim Behrle 
> made a few slightly negative comments at his blog about Ken'ts collection of 
> poetry, and Kent has reacted to that the way you claim Kent's sanctimonious 
> oppressors are reacting to him.  He just answered my criticism of the text 
> about poetry you like by speaking of my temper and comparing me to Lady 
> Macbeth.  Real intelligent, yeah.  And he's ignored my question about the 
> ability of claims about the Holocaust to piss people off being "an idex" of 
> their validity.

Personally, I thought your initial response to me in that thread was
vacuous.  You have since elaborated, and for my part you've filled the
vacuum.  However, you clearly have ambitions for a definition of poetry
so far removed from what I consider reasonable and feasible that I've
just left that whole quagmire alone.  I think Kent was just giving a
flip (and vacuous) response to yours, and I guess once the temperature
has been raised to the level it has, what more can one expect?

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From jeff.newberry  Sun Aug 14 15:56:28 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:56:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] question for Bob
In-Reply-To: <008f01c5a107$ce78bf70$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s2ff451d.056@mail.highland.edu>
	<008f01c5a107$ce78bf70$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050814125612652a41@mail.gmail.com>

I guess this is where we disagree.
 English Sonnet without Content
for Bob G.
 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXyay
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXsad
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXsay
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXbad
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXtree
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXpsalter
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXknee
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXwalter
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXfood
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXamong
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXattitude
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXdung
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXcreepy
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXsneaky
 Form is what's there. It's still a poem!
 Jeff Newberry
 On 8/14/05, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Form is what's there before the poem exists.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 16:12:00 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:12:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin>
	<00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Phooey on Marvel--but he does sort of clinch it, I guess.  Yes, bugger 
factor.  "to A green THOUGHT in A green SHADE" in this poem stands, for me, 
as iambic--but with a double bugger-factor.  I want to think about this, 
Robin--because I want to be able to simplify meter to two-beat feet and 
three beat feet, one accent in each, either at the front or back, and maybe 
I can if I call the bugger . . . shambler something.  The freak-flick. 
Aberration used by some poets to stymie metric reason!

Unrelated question: why does the term, "name-calling," refer only calling 
someone by an insulting name?  To call someone a poet, for instance, is, by 
logic, name-calling.  Note: James just told me if I insult anybody else at 
New-Poetry, I'm out.  Beat yah, beat yah!

--Rabid Robert

 





From robin.hamilton2  Sun Aug 14 16:46:08 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:46:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin>
	<00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin>

Um, Bob, maybe you should have made it clear that what's below refers to a
comment I just posted to your blog.  A little decontextualised as it stands.

> Phooey on Marvel--but he does sort of clinch it, I guess.  Yes, bugger
> factor.  "to A green THOUGHT in A green SHADE" in this poem stands, for
me,
> as iambic--but with a double bugger-factor.

Well, I'd scan as "to a GREEN THOUGHT in a GREEN SHADE" which is and was how
I'd always read it.  But it didn't (seem to) make sense as part of an iambic
pattern.  But it sounded right to my ear.

Which was why I loved the Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot as an explanation when
I came on it.

Also, the term is such a beautiful conversation-stopper -- like
apocatastasis -- that I just naturally fell in love with it.

> I want to think about this,
> Robin--because I want to be able to simplify meter to two-beat feet and
> three beat feet, one accent in each, either at the front or back,

"Beat" is a bit ambiguous here (close to stress or accent) -- why not just
syllable?

Well, I'm with you there if you're reducing syllable-accent feet to
iambic/trochaic/anapaestic/dactylic.  With the single exception above.

> and maybe
> I can if I call the bugger . . . shambler something.  The freak-flick.
> Aberration used by some poets to stymie metric reason!

Feel free -- I think I coined the term Bugger Factor for it, though I first
came on it in Maloff's +A Manual of English Meter+.

[If I've spelled his name correctly -- I can never remember how many ls and
how many fs]

> Unrelated question: why does the term, "name-calling," refer only calling
> someone by an insulting name?

Good question.  Dunno why, but it does.  Prolly the OED might help, but
mine's down at the moment.

> To call someone a poet, for instance, is, by
> logic, name-calling.

I think there's a tonal difference between "name calling" and calling
something "by name".  Nah?

> Note: James just told me if I insult anybody else at
> New-Poetry, I'm out.  Beat yah, beat yah!

Quite right too.

> --Rabid Robert

A Plastic Dormouse

name-calling -- The New Oxford Dictionary of English simply defines it as a
noun (separate from the entry on name) -- "abusive language or insults" -- 
but no derivation or dates.  But presumably they would be in the full OED.

A, sh*it*.  Just found a copy of the SOED on CD [and had to install it], and
there, it *is* included under [headword] NAME -- but still no dates.





From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 16:53:56 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:53:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX--Accidentaly Message
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <00cd01c5a112$49e8e450$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Oh, brother, now I'm in for it.  I couldn't reply to your comment to my blog 
because  comments from my don't come with return addresses, so I replied to 
a message I had in my Robin file, forgetting it might not go back-channel.

Rabid Robert 





From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 17:01:00 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:01:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] question for Bob
References: <s2ff451d.056@mail.highland.edu><008f01c5a107$ce78bf70$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<731bb17a050814125612652a41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ef01c5a113$468f1580$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  I guess this is where we disagree.

  English Sonnet without Content
  for Bob G.

  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXyay
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXsad
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXsay
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXbad
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXtree
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXpsalter
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXknee
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXwalter
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXfood
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXamong
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXattitude
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXdung
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXcreepy
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXsneaky
   
  Form is what's there.  It's still a poem!

  Jeff Newberry

  Well, you left some content in.  More accurate would be:


  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme A
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme B
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme A
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme B
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme C
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme D
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme C
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme D
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme E
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme F
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme E
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme F
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme G
  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXrhyme G

  but with the syllable count and rhythm indicated.  Sure, it's a kind of content, but it's so significantly a different kind of content from what is ordinarily considered content, it seems silly to call it content.  There's contained content and containing content, if we have to do away with the idea of form, but what's the point?  As I said in my post, you can have poetry equals content and content equals, as I now have it, contained content and containing content, but why not be more sensible and elegant (and even traditional) and say poetry equals content and form?

  BG

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From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 17:07:33 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:07:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
References: <s2fcdc11.079@mail.highland.edu><006b01c59f92$6a1af3c0$8eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com><1123961832.31001.263.camel@malatesta><006401c5a045$0e33a3a0$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1124049271.31001.290.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <00f401c5a114$310e8460$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> > I'll be sorry for jumping into this fray, but what a ludicrously
>> > sanctimonious lot the members of this list can be.
>>
>> Read what he said: "And the extent to which such a claim does so greatly
>> piss some people off is an index, I'd propose, of its truth."
>
> I can disagree with what he said above without insisting that everything
> else he said has been a trivialization of Ha Shoah.

What I said was all I said (at first).

>  In fact, it's this
> excessively prosecutorial bent in the "discussion" of Kent's comparison
> that makes it clear to me that an extraordinary standard is at play
> here.  Specifically, some people on this list consider it an abomination
> to even make an oblique comparison of anything else to Ha Shoah, which
> compels my counter-charge of ludicrous sanctimony.

I'll horrify you by telling you I haven't any idea what Ha Shoah is.  I was 
merely pointing out the silliness of saying that people are angered by a 
statement to the degree that it is true.

>> Kent fails to
>> distort the truth at times only because he doesn't know what it is.  As 
>> far
>> as I can tell, and I haven't investigated it very efficiently, Jim Behrle
>> made a few slightly negative comments at his blog about Ken'ts collection 
>> of
>> poetry, and Kent has reacted to that the way you claim Kent's 
>> sanctimonious
>> oppressors are reacting to him.  He just answered my criticism of the 
>> text
>> about poetry you like by speaking of my temper and comparing me to Lady
>> Macbeth.  Real intelligent, yeah.  And he's ignored my question about the
>> ability of claims about the Holocaust to piss people off being "an idex" 
>> of
>> their validity.
>
> Personally, I thought your initial response to me in that thread was
> vacuous.  You have since elaborated, and for my part you've filled the
> vacuum.  However, you clearly have ambitions for a definition of poetry
> so far removed from what I consider reasonable and feasible that I've
> just left that whole quagmire alone.  I think Kent was just giving a
> flip (and vacuous) response to yours, and I guess once the temperature
> has been raised to the level it has, what more can one expect?

My opinion would not be allowed.

--Bob G. 





From robin.hamilton2  Sun Aug 14 17:13:51 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:13:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX--Accidentaly Message
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin>
	<00cd01c5a112$49e8e450$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <005901c5a115$12ad9c80$f29c9951@Robin>

> Oh, brother, now I'm in for it.  I couldn't reply to your comment to my
blog
> because  comments from my don't come with return addresses, so I replied
to
> a message I had in my Robin file, forgetting it might not go back-channel.

            <evil chuckle>

... and there I thought you were just being awkward.

Robin





From antrobin  Sun Aug 14 17:15:34 2005
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:15:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <00f401c5a114$310e8460$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000601c5a115$563387d0$99341c40@Emily>

Hey Bob, 

HaShoah is the holocaust.  I am horrified.

Tony






From tad  Sun Aug 14 17:24:28 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:24:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on composition
References: <BF24DE97.1383D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <004a01c5a116$90b635a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Ashbery on compositionMy first criterion for judging Ashbery is - does it have a good beat - can you dance to it? And this one doesn't. I'd give it a 58, Dick.


Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:42 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on composition



  Composition 

  We used to call it the boob tube,
  but I guess they don't use tubes anymore.
  Whatever, it serves a small purpose after waking
  and before falling asleep. Today's news<
  but is there such a thing as news,
  or even oral history? Yes, when you want to go back
  after a while and appraise the accumulation
  of leaves, say in a sandbox.
  The rest is rented depression,
  available only in season
  and the season is always next month,
  a pure but troubled time.

  That's why I don't go out much, though
  staying at home never seemed much of an option..
  And speaking of nutty concepts, surely "home"
  is way up there on the list. I feel more certain about "now"
  and "then," because they are close to me,
  like lovers, though apparently not in love with me,
  as I am with them. I like to call to them,
  and sometimes they reply, out of the deep business of some dream. 

  --John Ashbery. Where Shall I Wander.




  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From robin.hamilton2  Sun Aug 14 17:26:18 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:26:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] name-calling
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><00cd01c5a112$49e8e450$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<005901c5a115$12ad9c80$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <006101c5a116$d0534e00$f29c9951@Robin>

... according to the OED2[3] is first used by Dickins in 1853 -- "Such
name-calling and dirt throwing ..."

[And I had to go to a hell of a lot of trouble hunting around the house to
find a spare monitor to discover that rather inconsequential piece of
information, so I hope everyone's suitably grateful.]

Robin





From tad  Sun Aug 14 17:36:25 2005
From: tad (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:36:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] name-calling
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><00cd01c5a112$49e8e450$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005901c5a115$12ad9c80$f29c9951@Robin>
	<006101c5a116$d0534e00$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <00b301c5a118$3c4e0400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Definitions won't go on your regular monitor?

Tad Richards
www.opus40.org
http://opusforty.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 5:26 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] name-calling


> ... according to the OED2[3] is first used by Dickins in 1853 -- "Such
> name-calling and dirt throwing ..."
>
> [And I had to go to a hell of a lot of trouble hunting around the house to
> find a spare monitor to discover that rather inconsequential piece of
> information, so I hope everyone's suitably grateful.]
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From robin.hamilton2  Sun Aug 14 17:41:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:41:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] name-calling
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><00cd01c5a112$49e8e450$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005901c5a115$12ad9c80$f29c9951@Robin><006101c5a116$d0534e00$f29c9951@Robin>
	<00b301c5a118$3c4e0400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <007701c5a118$eac51a00$f29c9951@Robin>

> Definitions won't go on your regular monitor?
>
> Tad Richards

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, but I think it would bore
everyone rigid if I went into details.

Robin

> > ... according to the OED2[3] is first used by Dickins in 1853 -- "Such
> > name-calling and dirt throwing ..."
> >
> > [And I had to go to a hell of a lot of trouble hunting around the house
to
> > find a spare monitor to discover that rather inconsequential piece of
> > information, so I hope everyone's suitably grateful.]
> >
> > Robin





From david.bircumshaw  Sun Aug 14 18:53:53 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:53:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Muses etc
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><00cd01c5a112$49e8e450$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005901c5a115$12ad9c80$f29c9951@Robin><006101c5a116$d0534e00$f29c9951@Robin><00b301c5a118$3c4e0400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<007701c5a118$eac51a00$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <003501c5a123$4b051a00$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

I can't quite get the formatting of this right for e-mail but anyhow. I am non-plussed by Bob's unease at Marvell's exteremely metrical substitions btw



Quicksilver

He shall be flesshie of nose, and spare of body, and as the Sunne is lord of light, dry of nature though quick and crafty and subtill of Wit and Tongue and Science and will have great love for ladies and gentlewomen yet shall have great harm by them and when he is married, men shall not set so much store by him as they did before. He shall be a friend of rogues and vagabonds yet be servant or carrier to some great Lord or else a receiver of his money and will love to preach and speake faire language and rhetorick. You may denote him by the little finger. He shall take his hue from what surrounds, he shall be unloving, loving, unlusting, lusting. A shepherd of thin dreams who brings the coat of many colours a night-watching and a door-waylaying thief. Who lives for others. He shall be a good man of the church and not espouse the Arts of Warre. He shall account of worth schools, jackdaws, hares, bowling greens, telephones, swallows, fairs at WhitMonday, digital radio, foxes, squirrels, sarabandes, the Great Western line, blackbirds, rivers in winter, curls, lavender and wine, the search for distant planets as in those presumed about Beta Pictori or 66 Cancri, board-games, the night sky, tennis courts, libraries, leather, lepidoptera, moorhens, weasels and all those by nature witty and inconstant. He shall love poetrie and fear Apollo. He shall sign on on Fridays and drink dry cider. He shall look for his soul in others' eyes.

I woke in the small hours and turned to my side. I've been dreaming I was alive

I mumbled. Not now, I'm tired she replied.





best



Dave

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From david.bircumshaw  Sun Aug 14 19:01:12 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:01:12 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Muses etc
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><00cd01c5a112$49e8e450$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005901c5a115$12ad9c80$f29c9951@Robin><006101c5a116$d0534e00$f29c9951@Robin><00b301c5a118$3c4e0400$6501a8c0@MoleHQ><007701c5a118$eac51a00$f29c9951@Robin>
	<003501c5a123$4b051a00$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <004a01c5a124$11c6c120$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

substitions in my last should be 'substitutions' - I am as blind as the well-known bat

Dave

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From david.bircumshaw  Sun Aug 14 19:39:43 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:39:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Of course, Rob, a term like the Lesser Ionic Foot is slightly spurious in
terms of English metrics, as a foot in Latin is double a foot in English (we
write in half-feet) apart from the little matter of quantity versus quality.
Having said that I do read the Marvell doubling as, as it were, Ionic. There
are more ways of looking at it: it is 'weighted' and 'breath-focused'. It
slows, under its imaginary tree. It invokes the ear into pause. Yep, it
makes the ear speak.

I'd like to know why Bob has this desire to simplify, or how he regards
metrics as a source of reason. I always remember Hopkins' good advice on the
effect of masterpieces on him, which can be applied to any imposition of
standardisation on poetry, to wit: 'to admire and do otherwise'.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] XX


> Um, Bob, maybe you should have made it clear that what's below refers to a
> comment I just posted to your blog.  A little decontextualised as it
stands.
>
> > Phooey on Marvel--but he does sort of clinch it, I guess.  Yes, bugger
> > factor.  "to A green THOUGHT in A green SHADE" in this poem stands, for
> me,
> > as iambic--but with a double bugger-factor.
>
> Well, I'd scan as "to a GREEN THOUGHT in a GREEN SHADE" which is and was
how
> I'd always read it.  But it didn't (seem to) make sense as part of an
iambic
> pattern.  But it sounded right to my ear.
>
> Which was why I loved the Lesser Ionic Ascending Foot as an explanation
when
> I came on it.
>
> Also, the term is such a beautiful conversation-stopper -- like
> apocatastasis -- that I just naturally fell in love with it.
>
> > I want to think about this,
> > Robin--because I want to be able to simplify meter to two-beat feet and
> > three beat feet, one accent in each, either at the front or back,
>
> "Beat" is a bit ambiguous here (close to stress or accent) -- why not just
> syllable?
>
> Well, I'm with you there if you're reducing syllable-accent feet to
> iambic/trochaic/anapaestic/dactylic.  With the single exception above.
>
> > and maybe
> > I can if I call the bugger . . . shambler something.  The freak-flick.
> > Aberration used by some poets to stymie metric reason!
>
> Feel free -- I think I coined the term Bugger Factor for it, though I
first
> came on it in Maloff's +A Manual of English Meter+.
>
> [If I've spelled his name correctly -- I can never remember how many ls
and
> how many fs]
>
> > Unrelated question: why does the term, "name-calling," refer only
calling
> > someone by an insulting name?
>
> Good question.  Dunno why, but it does.  Prolly the OED might help, but
> mine's down at the moment.
>
> > To call someone a poet, for instance, is, by
> > logic, name-calling.
>
> I think there's a tonal difference between "name calling" and calling
> something "by name".  Nah?
>
> > Note: James just told me if I insult anybody else at
> > New-Poetry, I'm out.  Beat yah, beat yah!
>
> Quite right too.
>
> > --Rabid Robert
>
> A Plastic Dormouse
>
> name-calling -- The New Oxford Dictionary of English simply defines it as
a
> noun (separate from the entry on name) -- "abusive language or insults" --
> but no derivation or dates.  But presumably they would be in the full OED.
>
> A, sh*it*.  Just found a copy of the SOED on CD [and had to install it],
and
> there, it *is* included under [headword] NAME -- but still no dates.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Sun Aug 14 20:09:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:09:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin>
	<008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <001c01c5a12d$9611db00$f29c9951@Robin>

> Of course, Rob, a term like the Lesser Ionic Foot

Lesser Ionic ASCENDING Foot, dave, please.

> is slightly spurious in
> terms of English metrics, as a foot in Latin is double a foot in English
(we
> write in half-feet)

Well that would apply, as it substitutes for *two* iambic feet.  So in
Marvell, the "expected"  four iambs:  X / X / X / X /  --  are replaced by
two LIAFeet:   X X / / X X  / /.

I didn't invent the name, and I think some metricists (New Formalists?) term
it differently.  But it's actually relatively common (and a useful metrical
resource) -- Marvell's is simply the most extreme case I know of.

> apart from the little matter of quantity versus quality.

Yeah, well, but ...  Obviously, I agree, but as we seem to be quite happy
with "iambic", which strictly speaking (or originally) referred to a
classical qualitative foot ...

> Having said that I do read the Marvell doubling as, as it were, Ionic.
There
> are more ways of looking at it: it is 'weighted' and 'breath-focused'. It
> slows, under its imaginary tree. It invokes the ear into pause. Yep, it
> makes the ear speak.

Concur -- there are other things happening -- but that's the abstract
metrical pattern.

> I'd like to know why Bob has this desire to simplify, or how he regards
> metrics as a source of reason. I always remember Hopkins' good advice on
the
> effect of masterpieces on him, which can be applied to any imposition of
> standardisation on poetry, to wit: 'to admire and do otherwise'.

I'll let Bob speak for himself.

Cheers,

Robin





From bobgrumman  Sun Aug 14 20:14:44 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:14:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin>
	<008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <001201c5a12e$570b8ef0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

David, I apparently missed your "substitions" post.  Am curious about what 
you said.

> I'd like to know why Bob has this desire to simplify, or how he regards
> metrics as a source of reason.

I want to simplify everything to make it easier to understand.  And rout the 
nihilists.  Also, to show/find how everything fits together, which tends to 
require reducing to basics.  Metrics as a source of reason?  Not sure what 
you mean.  I find it a source of predictability that allows for greater 
unpredictability in other parts of poems.  In effect, a kind of reason 
moderating intuition.

> I always remember Hopkins' good advice on the
> effect of masterpieces on him, which can be applied to any imposition of
> standardisation on poetry, to wit: 'to admire and do otherwise'.

But he only used 26 letters, I believe. . . .  I could never understand this 
idea that accurate description of something can be an imposition on someone. 
How does the standardization of the length of inches which can be used to 
measure the size of paintings impose on painters?  Or the spectographic 
measurement of light-waves to give exact "weights" to colors impose on them? 
But I'm infamous hereabouts for believing one should admire masterpieces and 
do otherwise.

--Bob G.





From david.bircumshaw  Mon Aug 15 03:34:54 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:34:54 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<001c01c5a12d$9611db00$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <009d01c5a16b$d4c155e0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Yes, Rob, an Ascending Foot (correct me if I'm wrong, btw, but in classical
metrics were not ionics always ascending anyhow?, I'm speaking from memory,
but I'll check it up later)

disjecta Membra: my ear does hear the ionic in the form of xx -- as
actualised reality within the parameters of English iambics, just as the
choriamb (-x x-) - vide Graves 'Counting the Beats' - has an actuality. It
is a matter of movement, another way of analysing Marvell's green thoughts
would be spondee following pyrhic, or demotion of syllable 2 followed by
promotion of syllable 4, although how anyone could seriously claim that the
'a' on syllable 2 could bear a stress I do not know. It could also be made
out that it is trochee followed by iamb: 'TO a green THOUGHT IN a green
SHADE' although I find such a reading so theatrical as to be absurd. It
would require an unnatural hiatus between foot 1 & 2 rather than the flowing
of the ionic reading. Which also of course employs resolution with the pause
that follows it.

But of course our ancestors were very theatrical.

One has to think that the gentlemen poets of England with their taste for
Latin verses were attuned to effects from the Classics which they did
transpose at times into the bounds of stress based English iambs.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] XX


> > Of course, Rob, a term like the Lesser Ionic Foot
>
> Lesser Ionic ASCENDING Foot, dave, please.
>
> > is slightly spurious in
> > terms of English metrics, as a foot in Latin is double a foot in English
> (we
> > write in half-feet)
>
> Well that would apply, as it substitutes for *two* iambic feet.  So in
> Marvell, the "expected"  four iambs:  X / X / X / X /  --  are replaced by
> two LIAFeet:   X X / / X X  / /.
>
> I didn't invent the name, and I think some metricists (New Formalists?)
term
> it differently.  But it's actually relatively common (and a useful
metrical
> resource) -- Marvell's is simply the most extreme case I know of.
>
> > apart from the little matter of quantity versus quality.
>
> Yeah, well, but ...  Obviously, I agree, but as we seem to be quite happy
> with "iambic", which strictly speaking (or originally) referred to a
> classical qualitative foot ...
>
> > Having said that I do read the Marvell doubling as, as it were, Ionic.
> There
> > are more ways of looking at it: it is 'weighted' and 'breath-focused'.
It
> > slows, under its imaginary tree. It invokes the ear into pause. Yep, it
> > makes the ear speak.
>
> Concur -- there are other things happening -- but that's the abstract
> metrical pattern.
>
> > I'd like to know why Bob has this desire to simplify, or how he regards
> > metrics as a source of reason. I always remember Hopkins' good advice on
> the
> > effect of masterpieces on him, which can be applied to any imposition of
> > standardisation on poetry, to wit: 'to admire and do otherwise'.
>
> I'll let Bob speak for himself.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From david.bircumshaw  Mon Aug 15 04:00:36 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:00:36 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<001201c5a12e$570b8ef0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00af01c5a16f$7e5db780$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> David, I apparently missed your "substitions" post.  Am curious about what
> you said.


Bob, the post was a poem, re the 'Muse' theme, with a couple of
typo-infected prefatory remarks about not being able to exactly reproduce
the format in e-mail. Here's the poem again, apologies to those who've
already seen it:

Quicksilver

He shall be flesshie of nose, and spare of body, and as the Sunne is lord of
light, dry of nature though quick and crafty and subtill of Wit and Tongue
and Science and will have great love for ladies and gentlewomen yet shall
have great harm by them and when he is married, men shall not set so much
store by him as they did before. He shall be a friend of rogues and
vagabonds yet be servant or carrier to some great Lord or else a receiver of
his money and will love to preach and speake faire language and rhetorick.
You may denote him by the little finger. He shall take his hue from what
surrounds, he shall be unloving, loving, unlusting, lusting. A shepherd of
thin dreams who brings the coat of many colours a night-watching and a
door-waylaying thief. Who lives for others. He shall be a good man of the
church and not espouse the Arts of Warre. He shall account of worth schools,
jackdaws, hares, bowling greens, telephones, swallows, fairs at WhitMonday,
digital radio, foxes, squirrels, sarabandes, the Great Western line,
blackbirds, rivers in winter, curls, lavender and wine, the search for
distant planets as in those presumed about Beta Pictori or 66 Cancri,
board-games, the night sky, tennis courts, libraries, leather, lepidoptera,
moorhens, weasels and all those by nature witty and inconstant. He shall
love poetrie and fear Apollo. He shall sign on on Fridays and drink dry
cider. He shall look for his soul in others' eyes.

I woke in the small hours and turned to my side. I've been dreaming I was
alive

I mumbled. Not now, I'm tired she replied

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] XX


> David, I apparently missed your "substitions" post.  Am curious about what
> you said.
>
> > I'd like to know why Bob has this desire to simplify, or how he regards
> > metrics as a source of reason.
>
> I want to simplify everything to make it easier to understand.  And rout
the
> nihilists.  Also, to show/find how everything fits together, which tends
to
> require reducing to basics.  Metrics as a source of reason?  Not sure what
> you mean.  I find it a source of predictability that allows for greater
> unpredictability in other parts of poems.  In effect, a kind of reason
> moderating intuition.
>
> > I always remember Hopkins' good advice on the
> > effect of masterpieces on him, which can be applied to any imposition of
> > standardisation on poetry, to wit: 'to admire and do otherwise'.
>
> But he only used 26 letters, I believe. . . .  I could never understand
this
> idea that accurate description of something can be an imposition on
someone.
> How does the standardization of the length of inches which can be used to
> measure the size of paintings impose on painters?  Or the spectographic
> measurement of light-waves to give exact "weights" to colors impose on
them?
> But I'm infamous hereabouts for believing one should admire masterpieces
and
> do otherwise.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Mon Aug 15 06:46:58 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:46:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001c01c5a12d$9611db00$f29c9951@Robin>
	<009d01c5a16b$d4c155e0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <002901c5a186$a9a5c470$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

how anyone could seriously claim that the
> 'a' on syllable 2 could bear a stress I do not know.

Seems easy to me: once a metric is established for a text, the text flows 
into it automatically.  That's a main point of establishing a metric, it 
seems to me.  If a passage in normal speech has a rhythm different from the 
metric, a tension will result which can be envigorating but if to prolonged, 
ruinous.

I think of meter as something words are translated into as much as something 
words are arranged into.

--Bob G. 





From bobgrumman  Mon Aug 15 06:48:11 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:48:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001201c5a12e$570b8ef0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00af01c5a16f$7e5db780$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <003101c5a186$d52f1790$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks.  I now remember this.  I enjoyed it.

--Bob

>> David, I apparently missed your "substitions" post.  Am curious about 
>> what
>> you said.
>
>
> Bob, the post was a poem, re the 'Muse' theme, with a couple of
> typo-infected prefatory remarks about not being able to exactly reproduce
> the format in e-mail. Here's the poem again, apologies to those who've
> already seen it:
>
> Quicksilver
>
> He shall be flesshie of nose, and spare of body, and as the Sunne is lord 
> of
> light, dry of nature though quick and crafty and subtill of Wit and Tongue
> and Science and will have great love for ladies and gentlewomen yet shall
> have great harm by them and when he is married, men shall not set so much
> store by him as they did before. He shall be a friend of rogues and
> vagabonds yet be servant or carrier to some great Lord or else a receiver 
> of
> his money and will love to preach and speake faire language and rhetorick.
> You may denote him by the little finger. He shall take his hue from what
> surrounds, he shall be unloving, loving, unlusting, lusting. A shepherd of
> thin dreams who brings the coat of many colours a night-watching and a
> door-waylaying thief. Who lives for others. He shall be a good man of the
> church and not espouse the Arts of Warre. He shall account of worth 
> schools,
> jackdaws, hares, bowling greens, telephones, swallows, fairs at 
> WhitMonday,
> digital radio, foxes, squirrels, sarabandes, the Great Western line,
> blackbirds, rivers in winter, curls, lavender and wine, the search for
> distant planets as in those presumed about Beta Pictori or 66 Cancri,
> board-games, the night sky, tennis courts, libraries, leather, 
> lepidoptera,
> moorhens, weasels and all those by nature witty and inconstant. He shall
> love poetrie and fear Apollo. He shall sign on on Fridays and drink dry
> cider. He shall look for his soul in others' eyes.
>
> I woke in the small hours and turned to my side. I've been dreaming I was
> alive
>
> I mumbled. Not now, I'm tired she replied
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] XX
>
>
>> David, I apparently missed your "substitions" post.  Am curious about 
>> what
>> you said.
>>
>> > I'd like to know why Bob has this desire to simplify, or how he regards
>> > metrics as a source of reason.
>>
>> I want to simplify everything to make it easier to understand.  And rout
> the
>> nihilists.  Also, to show/find how everything fits together, which tends
> to
>> require reducing to basics.  Metrics as a source of reason?  Not sure 
>> what
>> you mean.  I find it a source of predictability that allows for greater
>> unpredictability in other parts of poems.  In effect, a kind of reason
>> moderating intuition.
>>
>> > I always remember Hopkins' good advice on the
>> > effect of masterpieces on him, which can be applied to any imposition 
>> > of
>> > standardisation on poetry, to wit: 'to admire and do otherwise'.
>>
>> But he only used 26 letters, I believe. . . .  I could never understand
> this
>> idea that accurate description of something can be an imposition on
> someone.
>> How does the standardization of the length of inches which can be used to
>> measure the size of paintings impose on painters?  Or the spectographic
>> measurement of light-waves to give exact "weights" to colors impose on
> them?
>> But I'm infamous hereabouts for believing one should admire masterpieces
> and
>> do otherwise.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 





From bobgrumman  Mon Aug 15 06:51:05 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:51:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001201c5a12e$570b8ef0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00af01c5a16f$7e5db780$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <003601c5a187$3cf911a0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Last night I thought I had determined that there were four kinds of 
technical devices used in poems--for me, at least.  Now I can only think of 
three: figures of speech, auditory devices (meter, rhyme, alliteration, 
etc.) and heightened language or diction.  Can anyone think of any other?

--Bob G. 





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Aug 15 08:45:29 2005
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:45:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
Message-ID: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/15/2005 5:52:16 AM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> Last night I thought I had determined that there were four kinds of 
> technical devices used in poems--for me, at least.  Now I can only think of 
> three: figures of speech, auditory devices (meter, rhyme, alliteration, 
> etc.) and heightened language or diction.  Can anyone think of any other?
> 
> --Bob G. 
> 
Visual devices, such as spacing and other spatial arrangements of words and 
letters.
Rhetorical schemes of repetition (anaphora, epistrophe, antithesis, etc.), 
though this would fall in your third category.
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From JforJames  Mon Aug 15 08:50:13 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:50:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
Message-ID: <1e1.42a36530.3031e985@aol.com>

I ran across this yesterday. I seems Voltaire had slight regard
for some of the religious/sacred poetry of his day...

"Sacr?s ils sont, car personne n'y touche."

[Sacred they are, for no one will touch them.]
--Voltaire, Le Pauvre Diable (1758)
The reference is to certain mediocre religious poems.

Finnegan
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From marcus  Mon Aug 15 11:21:09 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:21:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <1123961832.31001.263.camel@malatesta>
References: <980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <43007AA5.14554.1688A08@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2005 at 13:37, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> Kent, I do *not* read that you have ever claimed the equivalence of Abu
> Ghraib and Auschwitz, and those who claim such are not worth paying the
> least attention to.<

That's too bad, since Kent said in response to questions about that that 
he did indeed intend to say that Abu Ghraib had a sort of equivalence in 
the institutional nature of the offenses. I agree with Kent and disagree 
with you that there is no kind of equivalence. If I understand Kent 
correctly he puts the equivalence in the institutionalization of such 
things, and not in the actual acts. I think he's making an important point, 
though I also disagree with some other aspects of his thought, as I've 
elaborated earlier.

Marcus





From marcus  Mon Aug 15 11:21:09 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:21:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <79.4b77d396.302fbcd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <43007AA5.745.1688B22@localhost>

Either JforJames at aol.com or mandolin at mac.com writes:
> ... Political poetry
> doesn't have to do anything more than be politically-minded
> speech. (One hopes for a certain art in that speech; but
> that's not requisite.) <

No art required, eh? No wonder there's been a contemporary 
"blossoming" of poetry: it's because there's no art required! Anything 
that anyone says is poetry is poetry -- no art required. Anything anyone 
says or writes is poetry -- no art required. "Mein Kampf" is poetry and 
KKK literature is poetry. It's all poetry, from Limbaugh to Bush. 
Why stop there? Anything anyone does is poetry -- no art required. 
Murder is poetry, torture is poetry, rape is poetry by this measure. 

Either JforJames at aol.com or mandolin at mac.com writes:
> Hopefully it's historically aware enough not to make too many 
> laughable gaffes, ...<

How, starting from "no art required" do you think to avoid "laughable 
gaffes"?





From marcus  Mon Aug 15 11:21:09 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:21:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
In-Reply-To: <9b1b9dab05081316542df49d0a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011701c5a060$5b903850$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <43007AA5.7758.16889AB@localhost>

 On 13 Aug 2005 at 15:54, Chris Lott wrote:
> ... I'm not sure why anger shouldn't be seen as at least one
> potential indices of measuring truth. It certainly seems to be true
> when talking about *people*... the close to the truth you get, the
> angrier they tend to get (and I'm certainly no exception). It's just
> the kind of off-the-cuff, folkloric diagnosis that so often turns out
> to be true.

Because it's post hoc ergo popter hoc thinking: there is no necessary 
connection between the anger and the truth. It may not BE the truth -- it 
may be just your opinion, for starters. It's just as easy to get people 
angry by lying to them as by telling them the truth -- easier. If you want 
to measure something by how angry people get, perhaps you'd be better 
off to hold that their anger is a measure of how persuaded they are that 
you're lying to them.







From marcus  Mon Aug 15 11:21:09 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:21:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kent
In-Reply-To: <s2fdeb87.034@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <43007AA5.25897.1688AC4@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2005 at 12:45, Kent Johnson wrote:
> ... I don't think that's the nature of
> the book, that it "preaches to the choir." Well, I mean, it *does*
> preach to the choir, I'm sure, but I think it tells the choir (there I
> am, singing in the bass section!) that we are a silly, pompous,
> hypocritical, confused, and fucked-up choir and we better do something
> about our choir music if we're ever going to get an audience for our
> choir!<

The notion of "preaching to the choir" simply doesn't include the notion 
of criticizing the choir. The whole point of saying someone or some 
writing is "preaching to the choir" is to say that however useful it may be 
for "activating your bass" ho ho it is useless when it comes to making 
your point to those who are in the other church or on the fence. 

There's no vice in preaching to the choir unless what you're trying to do 
is teaching the sinners.  

The notion of turning on the choir and telling its members they are really 
sinners is something so different from the notion of "preaching to the 
choir" that not even the equivocal use to which you put it will serve. If 
your intent is to criticize the choir and reform it, then you're not 
"preaching to the choir" at all. To the extent that there is some subset of 
the choir, the bass section, perhaps, that you view as the "real choir" 
because they agree with you, while the balance of the choir is on the 
wrong page of the hymnal, I suppose you could argue that you're 
"preaching to the choir" if you define the "choir" as "the bass section" -- 
but what a tortured and equivocal path that would be: far too tortured 
and equivocal to be reasonably followed.

On 13 Aug 2005 at 12:45, Kent Johnson wrote:
> +Well, I do care about the aesthetic response! But you and I clearly
> have a very different idea of the "aesthetic," its nature and possible
> circumference.<

I'm willing to agree that there's an aesthetic of advertising or an 
aesthetic of propaganda, but I'm going to argue that they are different 
from an aesthetic of art.

> ... There is all kind of great art that
> initially was greeted with scandal, confusion, laughter, tomatoes.<

Once again, of your great modesty you say nothing! 

This is a claim that your art is that kind of great art BECAUSE it is being 
greeted as some great art has been greeted. This is the poster child 
example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy -- and it's also why it's 
inappropriate and unwise to use angry reaction as an index of the truth. 
There is no necessary connection between an angry reaction and the 
truth of the assertion to which that person is reacting. One can get an 
angry reaction just as easily with lies or with bullshit. 

Marcus Bales wrote:
> >If it's only a pamphlet of poetry, though, and other media will garner
> a larger audience for your persuasion, or for your off-pissing
> intentions, 
> why bother with poetry? Why not embrace the issues of the day through 
> a more effective means of contemporary persuasion? You don't make 
> any money from poetry -- why not volunteer or the media campaigns of 
> people running for office with whom you may agree? Why not get a job 
> as staff for one of them? It's as low-paying as any teaching position.

On 13 Aug 2005 at 12:45, Kent Johnson wrote:
> +What makes you think I don't, Marcus? Does one preclude the other?

Because you're not crowing about it, and posting outraged letters from 
clueless constituents with your jesuitically equivocal replies calculated 
to feed that outrage. 

Marcus





From marcus  Mon Aug 15 11:21:09 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:21:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sadoff's critique of 'spiritualized' poetry 
In-Reply-To: <1f9.fc1c1f0.302fa4cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <43007AA5.12473.1688A66@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2005 at 15:32, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Sadoff['s] ... view is that poets are opportunistically 
> 'spiritualizing' their poetry to fit with some kind of zeitgeist.
> And I don't see it that way. I see primarily a genuine attempt 
> to connect to the world in a very basic and real way. To make way 
> for more genuine forms of experience, against the casual stimulation
> proffered 24-7 by forces of commerce and media. It's resistance
> spirituality; not bandwagonism.<

I think this gives entirely too much credit to the vast majority of poets 
writing today. All but a handful will be deservedly forgotten after a 
couple dozen posts on a few obscure email lists. It is that huge majority 
of poets who do indeed sway in the currents unseen but for their 
swaying to whom Sadoff refers. There are some poets writing as 
JforJames posits, but there's no way to tell who they are, now. Perhaps 
some great poetry will come of this new spiritualization, perhas from 
commercialization, perhaps from intellectualization -- who knows? All we 
can say for sure is that Sturgeon's Law applies.
 
> ... It doesn't
> strike me as the huckster spiritualism of evangelical revivals
> or new-agey storefronts popping up in old strip mall, after the head
> shops went out of business, trafficking in crystals, incense and 
> dulcimer music.<

Well, it does strike me that way. The whole contemporary "blossoming" 
of poetry looks like that to me. Do you not go to readings and workshops 
and parties? Do you not suffer through the notgettingititudinosity that 
combines with ignorance to blurt most of the poems and conversations?





From marcus  Mon Aug 15 11:21:09 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:21:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
In-Reply-To: <011701c5a060$5b903850$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <43007AA5.15132.168892E@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2005 at 19:40, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Note, in particular, my disclaimer.  Kent's snipping that seems typical of 
> him, as typical as his again ignoring my question.

Oh, that's rich -- Grumman complaining about someone else name-
calling.







From marcus  Mon Aug 15 11:21:10 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:21:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <40EA090E-731E-4C49-8A89-9DDB0243EAFE@mac.com>
References: <d2966287050813053868577f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43007AA6.23896.1688B7F@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2005 at 16:33, Michael Snider wrote:
> I do NOT think think the invasion of Iraq was justified, though at  
> the time I was fooled by lies about WMD. Hussein is a bad man. There  
> are lots of bad men (and women), and we have no right under law to  
> invade a country because it's ruled by one of them. There IS a war,  
> by jihadists, on the West, but invading Iraq was no part of a  
> legitimate response to that war and has, in fact, damaged our cause  
> and strengthened their hand,<

Agreed, except for this, "There IS a war ...". No, there's no war -- there's 
an Islamist Mafia, a criminal organization, whose policies and views are 
selfish, anti-social, and criminal. But except in the most amorphously 
non-policy-influencing way we cannot speak of a "war" by those people, 
unless we also are willing to say that other criminal organizations are 
waging war, too -- the war of the thug on the citizen, of the barbarian on 
the civilized. But that's way too broad to call a war in order to base 
policy on it. 

It's a police problem, not a war. To call it a war is to justify the 
extraordinary measures that suspend ordinary rights -- and that's exactly 
what the jihadists are trying to do. Their view is that the ordinary rights 
we enjoy are corrupt, unislamic, and irreligious and must be eliminated. 
If we react to their predations by denying ourselves those ordinary rights 
then the jihadists will have achieved some measure of what they're 
trying to do. There is no end to the struggle of thug v citizen, of 
barbarian v civilization, and to call it a "war" is going way too far. 





From Kent.Johnson  Mon Aug 15 11:44:12 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:44:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus, um... on scandal
Message-ID: <s300720a.029@mail.highland.edu>

When you interpret my comment about there having been in history "all
kind of great art that initially was greeted with... tomatoes" as
follows:


>> ... There is all kind of great art that
>> initially was greeted with scandal, confusion, laughter, tomatoes.<

>Once again, of your great modesty you say nothing! 

>This is a claim that your art is that kind of great art BECAUSE it is
being 
greeted as some great art has been greeted. 



I can see how you might think I was making a claim of like greatness
for my modest pamphlet. For what it's worth, I was not making that
claim. I was just pointing out--or meaning to point out--that your
apparent argument, i.e., that scandal around a work implies that scandal
is immanent and foremost in the author's intentions is not a very sound
argument.

Kent



From Kent.Johnson  Mon Aug 15 12:07:44 2005
From: Kent.Johnson (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:07:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus and Kent agree!
Message-ID: <s3007794.047@mail.highland.edu>

>It's a police problem, not a war. To call it a war is to justify the 
extraordinary measures that suspend ordinary rights -- and that's
exactly 
what the jihadists are trying to do. Their view is that the ordinary
rights 
we enjoy are corrupt, unislamic, and irreligious and must be
eliminated. 
If we react to their predations by denying ourselves those ordinary
rights 
then the jihadists will have achieved some measure of what they're 
trying to do. There is no end to the struggle of thug v citizen, of 
barbarian v civilization, and to call it a "war" is going way too far.



And with this eloquent passage from Marcus I do fully agree!

Bam!

Kent




From marcus  Mon Aug 15 12:32:22 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:32:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marcus, um... on scandal
In-Reply-To: <s300720a.029@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <43008B56.20559.1A9BB5D@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2005 at 10:44, Kent Johnson wrote:
> I can see how you might think I was making a claim of like greatness
> for my modest pamphlet. For what it's worth, I was not making that
> claim. I was just pointing out--or meaning to point out--that your
> apparent argument, i.e., that scandal around a work implies that scandal
> is immanent and foremost in the author's intentions is not a very sound
> argument.<

Without knowing anything more about it than that there is a literary 
scandal, and some people are angry at other people, it's far more 
reasonable to infer that creating literary scandal is foremost in the 
author's intentions than that the amount of anger is a good measure of 
the amount of truth to that scandal!

Knowing there is a historie de scandale to a particular person's literary 
efforts, though, creates a predisposition to believe that, like the man in 
the grizzly bear joke, they're not in it for the hunting.

Marcus








From paul.lake  Mon Aug 15 05:42:29 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:42:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The breast of Mary something...
In-Reply-To: <BF223B94.13756%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BF25CDB5.9C99%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/12/05 11:42 AM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> Yet another offending poem mentioned in the article is this hot number:
> 
> Thinking about the Past
> 
> Certain moments will never change nor stop being--
> My mother's face all smiles, all wrinkles soon;
> The rock wall building, built, collapsed then, fallen;
> Our upright loosening downward slowly out of tune--
> All fixed into place now, all rhyming with each other.
> That red-haired girl with wide mouth-Eleanor--
> Forgotten thirty years-her freckled shoulders, hands.
> The breast of Mary Something, freed from a white swimsuit,
> Damp, sandy, warm; or Margery's, a small, caught bird-
> Darkness they rise from, darkness they sink back toward.
> And Kenny in wartime whites, crisp, cocky,
> Time a bow bent with his certain failure.
> Dusks, dawns; waves; the ends of songs . . .
> 
> --Donald Justice
> ----------------------------
> 
> School of Quietude my ass!  Donald Justice rocks!  (Note the word "cocky,"
> also. . . .)
> 
> Someone please tell me that this news story is really just a hoax. . . .
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

David, thanks for keeping us, ah, abreast of this situation.

Paul
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From mandolin  Mon Aug 15 12:47:29 2005
From: mandolin (Mike Snider)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:47:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <43007AA6.23896.1688B7F@localhost>
References: <d2966287050813053868577f4@mail.gmail.com>
	<43007AA6.23896.1688B7F@localhost>
Message-ID: <7440949.1124124449690.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, August 15, 2005, at 11:25AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>On 13 Aug 2005 at 16:33, Michael Snider wrote:
>> I do NOT think think the invasion of Iraq was justified, though at  
>> the time I was fooled by lies about WMD. Hussein is a bad man. There  
>> are lots of bad men (and women), and we have no right under law to  
>> invade a country because it's ruled by one of them. There IS a war,  
>> by jihadists, on the West, but invading Iraq was no part of a  
>> legitimate response to that war and has, in fact, damaged our cause  
>> and strengthened their hand,<
>
>Agreed, except for this, "There IS a war ...". No, there's no war -- there's 
>an Islamist Mafia, a criminal organization, whose policies and views are 
>selfish, anti-social, and criminal. But except in the most amorphously 
>non-policy-influencing way we cannot speak of a "war" by those people, 
>unless we also are willing to say that other criminal organizations are 
>waging war, too -- the war of the thug on the citizen, of the barbarian on 
>the civilized. But that's way too broad to call a war in order to base 
>policy on it. 
>
>It's a police problem, not a war. To call it a war is to justify the 
>extraordinary measures that suspend ordinary rights -- and that's exactly 
>what the jihadists are trying to do. Their view is that the ordinary rights 
>we enjoy are corrupt, unislamic, and irreligious and must be eliminated. 
>If we react to their predations by denying ourselves those ordinary rights 
>then the jihadists will have achieved some measure of what they're 
>trying to do. There is no end to the struggle of thug v citizen, of 
>barbarian v civilization, and to call it a "war" is going way too far. 
>
>

You're right, Marcus. I was wrong on that point, and your quite proper linking it to the excuse for limiting civil liberties makes it clear I was wrong.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From paul.lake  Mon Aug 15 05:48:50 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:48:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Watch Your Language
In-Reply-To: <1c3.2e8e1334.302e4b52@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BF25CF32.9D36%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/12/05 1:58 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 8/12/2005 12:21:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
> anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
>> 
> Referring to:
> Now let's all send to the station manager of WUKY-91.3 FM poems by radicals
> like Wordsworth that employ the word "breast,"  shall we?
> 
> 
> I agree,
> I will send Mark Halliday's Skirt!
> 
> I will send that one by Yeats that asks, "And what rough breast is this . . .
> ?"
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Just don?t send ?New for the Delphic Oracle,? which, before a friend
convinced Yeats to revise it, was ?Nymphs fuck in the foam.?
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From paul.lake  Mon Aug 15 05:53:36 2005
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:53:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] is bob bob?
In-Reply-To: <127.623b46ef.303021a8@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BF25D050.9D37%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 8/13/05 11:25 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 8/13/2005 7:39:58 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:
>> 
>> We can do the dozens a bit without getting mad, can't we?
> 
> 
> 
> Re. no mas, I was just thinking of Carlos "Hands of Stone" Monzon.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

You mean Roberto Duran, don?t  you.  He cried ?No mas? in his rematch with
Sugar Ray Leonard.

Paul
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From JforJames  Mon Aug 15 13:21:22 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:21:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
Message-ID: <85.2db7b0ff.30322912@aol.com>

Marcus, to use one of your own favorite responses: You're
talking about 'good political poetry' and not merely what
is 'political poetry'.
By saying "one hopes for certain art in that speech," I was
hoping it was clear that I was a 'one' who hoped for 
a good measure of art in the political poem. It's a difficult balance
though, because the 'artifice' employed in making art can inadvertently
lessen the sincerity of expression/outcry. The very artful political 
poem begins to question the motive of the poet: Does he/she care 
more about her/his cause or the delight in this well-made
piece of language called a poem? That's why so much political 
poetry is straight-ahead rant or a kind of flat language telling. 

FYI...
http://www.curbstone.org/bookdetail.cfm?BookID=180
Curbostone Press has republished James Scully's book
on political poetry, Line Break.
Finnegan

In a message dated 8/15/2005 11:21:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
Either JforJames at aol.com or mandolin at mac.com writes:
> ... Political poetry
> doesn't have to do anything more than be politically-minded
> speech. (One hopes for a certain art in that speech; but
> that's not requisite.) <

No art required, eh? No wonder there's been a contemporary 
"blossoming" of poetry: it's because there's no art required! Anything 
that anyone says is poetry is poetry -- no art required. Anything anyone 
says or writes is poetry -- no art required. "Mein Kampf" is poetry and 
KKK literature is poetry. It's all poetry, from Limbaugh to Bush. 
Why stop there? Anything anyone does is poetry -- no art required. 
Murder is poetry, torture is poetry, rape is poetry by this measure. 

Either JforJames at aol.com or mandolin at mac.com writes:
> Hopefully it's historically aware enough not to make too many 
> laughable gaffes, ...<

How, starting from "no art required" do you think to avoid "laughable 
gaffes"?
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From marcus  Mon Aug 15 13:33:49 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:33:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <85.2db7b0ff.30322912@aol.com>
Message-ID: <430099BD.27501.1E1FEFD@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2005 at 13:21, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Marcus, to use one of your own favorite responses: You're
> talking about 'good political poetry' and not merely what
> is 'political poetry'....<

The moderator is always right.

Marcus







From chris.lott  Mon Aug 15 14:30:44 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:30:44 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
In-Reply-To: <43007AA5.7758.16889AB@localhost>
References: <011701c5a060$5b903850$55b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<9b1b9dab05081316542df49d0a@mail.gmail.com>
	<43007AA5.7758.16889AB@localhost>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab0508151130357c6be7@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/15/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> Because it's post hoc ergo popter hoc thinking: there is no necessary
> connection between the anger and the truth.

But there often is anyway, and that's my point.

c




From JforJames  Mon Aug 15 15:48:53 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:48:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] more Spiritual Poetry
Message-ID: <199.453a51ae.30324ba5@aol.com>

Music of the Sky: An Anthology of Spiritual Poetry
Edited by Patrick Laude & Barry McDonald  
  
ISBN: 0-941532-45-3
Book Size: 6" x 9"
# of Pages: 256
Language: English
 
Price: $16.95 

Preface by Barry McDonald 
Introduction by Patrick Laude 
PART I: DUST FROM THE WHIRLWIND
Song of the Ghost Dance? PAIUTE 
?Nothing lives long??CHEYENNE 
?What is life???CHIEF ISAPWO MUKSIKA CROWFOOT 
You and I Shall Go?WINTU 
?All doctrines split asunder??GIUN 
?Seventy-one!??KIGEN 
?Empty-handed I entered the world??KOZAN ICHIKYO 
?The pure morning dew?? ISSA 
?Story on story of wonderful hills and stream??HAN SHAN 
?Walking along a narrow path at the foot of a mountain??RYOKAN 
?Eternal spring wind? ?RENGETSU 
?Why bother with the world??? RYUSHU 
?A dash of rain upon??CHONG CH?OL 
?By the highway of Release I came?? LALLA YOGISHWARI 
?Mother! Mother! My boat sinks in the ocean of this world?? BENGALI HYMN 
?Because Thou lovest the Burning-ground?? BENGALI HYMN TO KALI 
?O mother, I have fallen in love?? AKKA MAHADEVI 
?You are kind, I am the pitiable one?? TULSIDAS 
?Guide this little boat?? MIRABAI 
?Don?t let go, hold on tight? ?RABINDRANATH TAGORE 
?O now beneath your feet?s dust?? YUNUS EMRE 
?How many in this life can never? 
?If thou canst walk on water?? ANSARI 
?I died as mineral and became a plant??RUMI 
??Needs must I tear them out,? the peacock cried? 
?Old tent-maker, your body is a tent?? OMAR KHAYYAM 
?Last night I dropped and smashed my porcelain bowl? 
?I had supposed that, having passed away?? ABU?L-HUSAYN AL-NURI 
?As the Arab racer needs not the whip?? SHABISTARI 
?Even God must die, if He wishes to live for thee?? ANGELUS SILESIUS 
?The chosen angels and the blessed souls?? PETRARCH 
?I go my way regretting those past times? 
?What is our life? A play of passion?? SIR WALTER RALEIGH 
?O Years! and Age! Farewell?? ROBERT HERRICK 
?Death be not proud?? JOHN DONNE 
?When as Man?s life, the light of human lust? ? FULKE GREVILLE, LORD BROOKE 
To His Watch, When He Could Not Sleep? EDWARD, LORD HERBERT OF CHERBURY 
?The expense of spirit in a waste of shame?? WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE 
?The times are all so fearful!?? NOVALIS 
Self-Knowledge? SAMUEL TAYLOR COLERIDGE 
Uphill? CHRISTINA GEORGINA ROSSETTI 
Because I Could Not Stop For Death? EMILY DICKINSON 
Autumn? RAINER MARIA RILKE 
The Island? FRITHJOF SCHUON 
Confession 
PART II: A GARDEN AMIDST FLAMES
?O marvel! A garden amidst flames!?? IBN ?ARABI 
Layla? AHMAD AL-?ALAWI 
?The secret longings of a learned man?? OMAR KHAYYAM 
?A man knocked at the door of his beloved?? RUMI 
The Song of the Reed 
The Unseen Power 
?And this is love?? 
?Whatever I say, You are the subject?? YUNUS EMRE 
?Do you know, my friends, where the real saints are?? 
?Let the deaf listen to the mute? 
?Lady, rise and offer to the Name?? LALLA YOGISHWARI 
??Think not on the things that are without?? 
?He who utters the name of Shiva?? UTPALADEVA 
?Yogin, don?t go??? MIRABAI 
?Binding my ankles with silver? 
?God of the silent soul?? RABINDRANATH TAGORE 
?On a dark night? ? ST. JOHN OF THE CROSS 
?I cannot dance O Lord, unless Thou lead me?? MECHTHILD OF MAGDEBURG 
?Ah! God-loving soul! In thy struggles?? DANTE ALIGHIERI 
?As I rode out one day not long ago?? ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI 
Canticle of the Sun 
?Love and the noble heart are but one thing?? DANTE ALIGHIERI 
?With rejoicing mouth?? INCA 
?That our earth mother may wrap herself ? 
I Pass the Pipe? SIOUX 
?O Saichi, where is the Land of Bliss??? SAICHI 
?Wind and air are two? 
?I am a happy man, indeed!? 
?Among all living things??? IPPEN 
?The Buddha, in the causal stage? ?TZ?U-MIN 
?Amidst the notes?? YOSANO AKIKO 
?If you?re looking for a place to rest?? HAN SHAN 
?Where gather mists and clouds, a happy world?? HUYNH SANH THONG 
?Today?? MORITAKE 
Love ?GEORGE HERBERT 
Prayer? JOHN DONNE 
?Batter my heart, three-personed God?? ROBERT HERRICK 
?Lord, I am like to Mistletoe?? FRIEDRICH H?LDERLIN 
?THE LINES OF LIFE ARE VARIOUS; THEY DIVERGE AND CEASE? ?WILLIAM BLAKE 
The Divine Image 
?When in hours of fear and failing?? NOVALIS 
Love?s Lord? EDWARD DOWDEN 
All in All? JOHN BANNISTER TABB 
Who Knows Love? ELSA BARKER 
The Name? FRITHJOF SCHUON 
The Drink 
PART III: THE SINGLE LIGHT 
?This desert is the Good?? MEISTER ECKHART 
?Of the heavenly things God has shown me?? MECHTHILD OF MAGDEBURG 
?Eternal Wisdom builds?? ANGELUS SILESIUS 
?Lift up the cup and bowl, my darling one?? OMAR KHAYYAM 
??Tis light makes color visible: at night?? RUMI 
??Twas a fair orchard, full of trees and fruit? 
?Ask of all those who know?? YUNUS EMRE 
?On the narrow path of Truth?? SHABISTARI 
?In Being?s silver sea? 
??I? and ?you? are but the lattices? 
?Ponder on God?s mercies? 
?Where I wander?You!?? LEVI YITZCHAK OF BERDITCHOV 
Hymn of Glory for the Sabbath? JUDAH HE-HASID 
Song to the Sun? ORTHA NAN GAIDHEAL 
Dawn Song? MESCALERO APACHE 
Song? ESKIMO 
?In the beginning was God?? PYGMY 
?There in midnight water?? DOGEN 
?To what shall? 
?Attaining the heart? 
?Not limited? 
?At Kugami?? RYOKWAN 
Snow? MUSO SOSEKI 
Spring Cliff 
?The question clear, the answer deep?? SODO 
?For no reason it rains?? CHIN?GAK 
Full Moon? TU FU 
?Only this?? FENG KAN 
?Flowers not flowers, fog not fog?? PAI-CHU-I 
?One in All??SENG-TS?AN 
?Sweetness is in sugar, sugar is in sweetness!?? KANAKADASA 
?Are you in illusion or is illusion in you?? 
?The pot is a god?? BASAVANNA 
?The river and its waves are one surf ?? KABIR 
?I laugh when I hear? 
?If Allah lives in a mosque? 
?Everything is pervaded by God!?? SADASIVA BRAHMENDRA 
?Lo! a Vision is before mine eyes?? LALLA YOGISHWARI 
?In a crack in the garden wall a flower?? RABINDRANATH TAGORE 
Conviction? FRIEDRICH H?LDERLIN 
Brahma? RALPH WALDO EMERSON 
?I never saw a moor?? EMILY DICKINSON 
Elevation? CHARLES BAUDELAIRE 
The Quest? EVA GORE-BOOTH 
Lost and Found? GEORGE MACDONALD 
Immanence? FRITHJOF SCHUON 
Maya 
The Song
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From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug 15 16:15:34 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:15:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001c01c5a12d$9611db00$f29c9951@Robin>
	<009d01c5a16b$d4c155e0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <007201c5a1d6$1935d9c0$309f9951@Robin>

> Yes, Rob, an Ascending Foot (correct me if I'm wrong, btw, but in
classical
> metrics were not ionics always ascending anyhow?, I'm speaking from
memory,
> but I'll check it up later)

You're partly right, dave, (and righter than I'd have been without looking
it up, classical metrics not being my strong suit).

This via google:

"In Greek and Latin prosody, an Ionic foot is a foot that consists of two
long syllables followed by two short ("major" or "greater ionic") or two
short followed by two long ("minor" or "smaller ionic"). An "Ionic metre" is
a metre that consists of Ionic feet."

Thus a Minor Ionic Foot :  u u - - :  is ascending by definition, so no
reason to call it such.

Which goes to confirm my long-held suspicion that Malof [correct spelling
this time -- I checked] coined the term Lesser Ascending Ionic Foot as some
sort of weird joke.

> disjecta Membra: my ear does hear the ionic in the form of xx -- as
> actualised reality within the parameters of English iambics, just as the
> choriamb (-x x-) - vide Graves 'Counting the Beats' - has an actuality.

        Counting the beats,
        Counting the slow heart beats,
        The bleeding to death of time in slow heart beats,
        Wakeful they lie

I'd agree that "Counting the beats" scans as  / X X / , but I'd see that as
a trochaic foot substituting for an iambic foot, a fairly common and
perfectly legitimate element of the iambic metre, most often found at the
beginning of a pentameter line.

(Part of the thrust of Malof's +Manual of English Metres+ [and one reason
why I liked it] was to eliminate terms such as "choriamb" from the
discussion of English metrics.)

> It
> is a matter of movement, another way of analysing Marvell's green thoughts
> would be spondee following pyrhic,

Indeed, but (see above) Malof abolished spondees and pyrrhics as such, on
the principle [from Wimsatt&Beardsley] that we perceive metre in terms of
contrasts in stress rather than absolute stress, and so there can never be
two stressed syllables side-by-side.

Unstressed syllables are another matter.  You can have two together in the
anaepest and the dactyl, but not as a foot in isolation.  Thus no such thing
as a pyrrhic (or spondee) in English.

Except of course there's X X / /, which Malof accounted for with what I've
elsewhere called the Bugger Factor.  ("Oh, bugger -- all this works
perfectly except for ...  Right, let's call it the Lesser Ionic Ascending
Foot.")

> or demotion of syllable 2 followed by
> promotion of syllable 4, although how anyone could seriously claim that
the
> 'a' on syllable 2 could bear a stress I do not know. It could also be made
> out that it is trochee followed by iamb: 'TO a green THOUGHT IN a green
> SHADE' although I find such a reading so theatrical as to be absurd. It
> would require an unnatural hiatus between foot 1 & 2 rather than the
flowing
> of the ionic reading. Which also of course employs resolution with the
pause
> that follows it.

Um ...  Yes ...  <g>

> But of course our ancestors were very theatrical.

Indeed.

> One has to think that the gentlemen poets of England with their taste for
> Latin verses were attuned to effects from the Classics which they did
> transpose at times into the bounds of stress based English iambs.

Point, but I think what may have happened was that it turned out that some
of these originally classical effects worked in terms of English verse and
others didn't, and only the former survived.

Caveat and addendum:  All this applies only to syllable-accent metre, and
it's descriptive rather than prescriptive.

Robin





From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug 15 16:35:13 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:35:13 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] more Spiritual Poetry
References: <199.453a51ae.30324ba5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002101c5a1d8$d796a870$72ab3252@ANNY>

Taken from the following site:
http://www.angelfire.com/moon/drsinner/5c.html

By Friedrich Hoelderlin
But a Man Lives in a House
But a man lives in a house, and covers himself with bashful clothing, for inside is even more attentive, and that he would preserve the spirit, like the priestess the heavenly flame, this is his understanding. And therefore arbitrariness is his, and higher power to lack or to fulfill the divine-like, and therefore is speech, the most dangerous of goods, given to a man, whereby he creates, destroys, and perishing, returns to the eternally living, to the Lady and Mother, whereby he gives birth to what he is ordained to inherit, to learn from her most divine aspect, all-pervading Love.

  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 9:48 PM

  Music of the Sky: An Anthology of Spiritual Poetry

  Edited by Patrick Laude & Barry McDonald  

    

  ISBN: 0-941532-45-3

  Book Size: 6" x 9"

  # of Pages: 256

  Language: English

   

  Price: $16.95 




  Preface by Barry McDonald 

  Introduction by Patrick Laude 

  PART I: DUST FROM THE WHIRLWIND

  Song of the Ghost Dance? PAIUTE 

  ?Nothing lives long??CHEYENNE 

  ?What is life???CHIEF ISAPWO MUKSIKA CROWFOOT 

  You and I Shall Go?WINTU 

  ?All doctrines split asunder??GIUN 

  ?Seventy-one!??KIGEN 

  ?Empty-handed I entered the world??KOZAN ICHIKYO 

  ?The pure morning dew?? ISSA 

  ?Story on story of wonderful hills and stream??HAN SHAN 

  ?Walking along a narrow path at the foot of a mountain??RYOKAN 

  ?Eternal spring wind? ?RENGETSU 

  ?Why bother with the world??? RYUSHU 

  ?A dash of rain upon??CHONG CH?OL 

  ?By the highway of Release I came?? LALLA YOGISHWARI 

  ?Mother! Mother! My boat sinks in the ocean of this world?? BENGALI HYMN 

  ?Because Thou lovest the Burning-ground?? BENGALI HYMN TO KALI 

  ?O mother, I have fallen in love?? AKKA MAHADEVI 

  ?You are kind, I am the pitiable one?? TULSIDAS 

  ?Guide this little boat?? MIRABAI 

  ?Don?t let go, hold on tight? ?RABINDRANATH TAGORE 

  ?O now beneath your feet?s dust?? YUNUS EMRE 

  ?How many in this life can never? 

  ?If thou canst walk on water?? ANSARI 

  ?I died as mineral and became a plant??RUMI 

  ??Needs must I tear them out,? the peacock cried? 

  ?Old tent-maker, your body is a tent?? OMAR KHAYYAM 

  ?Last night I dropped and smashed my porcelain bowl? 

  ?I had supposed that, having passed away?? ABU?L-HUSAYN AL-NURI 

  ?As the Arab racer needs not the whip?? SHABISTARI 

  ?Even God must die, if He wishes to live for thee?? ANGELUS SILESIUS 

  ?The chosen angels and the blessed souls?? PETRARCH 

  ?I go my way regretting those past times? 

  ?What is our life? A play of passion?? SIR WALTER RALEIGH 

  ?O Years! and Age! Farewell?? ROBERT HERRICK 

  ?Death be not proud?? JOHN DONNE 

  ?When as Man?s life, the light of human lust? ? FULKE GREVILLE, LORD BROOKE 

  To His Watch, When He Could Not Sleep? EDWARD, LORD HERBERT OF CHERBURY 

  ?The expense of spirit in a waste of shame?? WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE 

  ?The times are all so fearful!?? NOVALIS 

  Self-Knowledge? SAMUEL TAYLOR COLERIDGE 

  Uphill? CHRISTINA GEORGINA ROSSETTI 

  Because I Could Not Stop For Death? EMILY DICKINSON 

  Autumn? RAINER MARIA RILKE 

  The Island? FRITHJOF SCHUON 

  Confession 

  PART II: A GARDEN AMIDST FLAMES

  ?O marvel! A garden amidst flames!?? IBN ?ARABI 

  Layla? AHMAD AL-?ALAWI 

  ?The secret longings of a learned man?? OMAR KHAYYAM 

  ?A man knocked at the door of his beloved?? RUMI 

  The Song of the Reed 

  The Unseen Power 

  ?And this is love?? 

  ?Whatever I say, You are the subject?? YUNUS EMRE 

  ?Do you know, my friends, where the real saints are?? 

  ?Let the deaf listen to the mute? 

  ?Lady, rise and offer to the Name?? LALLA YOGISHWARI 

  ??Think not on the things that are without?? 

  ?He who utters the name of Shiva?? UTPALADEVA 

  ?Yogin, don?t go??? MIRABAI 

  ?Binding my ankles with silver? 

  ?God of the silent soul?? RABINDRANATH TAGORE 

  ?On a dark night? ? ST. JOHN OF THE CROSS 

  ?I cannot dance O Lord, unless Thou lead me?? MECHTHILD OF MAGDEBURG 

  ?Ah! God-loving soul! In thy struggles?? DANTE ALIGHIERI 

  ?As I rode out one day not long ago?? ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI 

  Canticle of the Sun 

  ?Love and the noble heart are but one thing?? DANTE ALIGHIERI 

  ?With rejoicing mouth?? INCA 

  ?That our earth mother may wrap herself ? 

  I Pass the Pipe? SIOUX 

  ?O Saichi, where is the Land of Bliss??? SAICHI 

  ?Wind and air are two? 

  ?I am a happy man, indeed!? 

  ?Among all living things??? IPPEN 

  ?The Buddha, in the causal stage? ?TZ?U-MIN 

  ?Amidst the notes?? YOSANO AKIKO 

  ?If you?re looking for a place to rest?? HAN SHAN 

  ?Where gather mists and clouds, a happy world?? HUYNH SANH THONG 

  ?Today?? MORITAKE 

  Love ?GEORGE HERBERT 

  Prayer? JOHN DONNE 

  ?Batter my heart, three-personed God?? ROBERT HERRICK 

  ?Lord, I am like to Mistletoe?? FRIEDRICH H?LDERLIN 

  ?THE LINES OF LIFE ARE VARIOUS; THEY DIVERGE AND CEASE? ?WILLIAM BLAKE 

  The Divine Image 

  ?When in hours of fear and failing?? NOVALIS 

  Love?s Lord? EDWARD DOWDEN 

  All in All? JOHN BANNISTER TABB 

  Who Knows Love? ELSA BARKER 

  The Name? FRITHJOF SCHUON 

  The Drink 

  PART III: THE SINGLE LIGHT 

  ?This desert is the Good?? MEISTER ECKHART 

  ?Of the heavenly things God has shown me?? MECHTHILD OF MAGDEBURG 

  ?Eternal Wisdom builds?? ANGELUS SILESIUS 

  ?Lift up the cup and bowl, my darling one?? OMAR KHAYYAM 

  ??Tis light makes color visible: at night?? RUMI 

  ??Twas a fair orchard, full of trees and fruit? 

  ?Ask of all those who know?? YUNUS EMRE 

  ?On the narrow path of Truth?? SHABISTARI 

  ?In Being?s silver sea? 

  ??I? and ?you? are but the lattices? 

  ?Ponder on God?s mercies? 

  ?Where I wander?You!?? LEVI YITZCHAK OF BERDITCHOV 

  Hymn of Glory for the Sabbath? JUDAH HE-HASID 

  Song to the Sun? ORTHA NAN GAIDHEAL 

  Dawn Song? MESCALERO APACHE 

  Song? ESKIMO 

  ?In the beginning was God?? PYGMY 

  ?There in midnight water?? DOGEN 

  ?To what shall? 

  ?Attaining the heart? 

  ?Not limited? 

  ?At Kugami?? RYOKWAN 

  Snow? MUSO SOSEKI 

  Spring Cliff 

  ?The question clear, the answer deep?? SODO 

  ?For no reason it rains?? CHIN?GAK 

  Full Moon? TU FU 

  ?Only this?? FENG KAN 

  ?Flowers not flowers, fog not fog?? PAI-CHU-I 

  ?One in All??SENG-TS?AN 

  ?Sweetness is in sugar, sugar is in sweetness!?? KANAKADASA 

  ?Are you in illusion or is illusion in you?? 

  ?The pot is a god?? BASAVANNA 

  ?The river and its waves are one surf ?? KABIR 

  ?I laugh when I hear? 

  ?If Allah lives in a mosque? 

  ?Everything is pervaded by God!?? SADASIVA BRAHMENDRA 

  ?Lo! a Vision is before mine eyes?? LALLA YOGISHWARI 

  ?In a crack in the garden wall a flower?? RABINDRANATH TAGORE 

  Conviction? FRIEDRICH H?LDERLIN 

  Brahma? RALPH WALDO EMERSON 

  ?I never saw a moor?? EMILY DICKINSON 

  Elevation? CHARLES BAUDELAIRE 

  The Quest? EVA GORE-BOOTH 

  Lost and Found? GEORGE MACDONALD 

  Immanence? FRITHJOF SCHUON 

  Maya 

  The Song




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From bobgrumman  Mon Aug 15 17:20:32 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:20:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com>
Message-ID: <008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Last night I thought I had determined that there were four kinds of 
technical devices used in poems--for me, at least.  Now I can only think of 
three: figures of speech, auditory devices (meter, rhyme, alliteration, 
etc.) and heightened language or diction.  Can anyone think of any other?

--Bob G. 


  Visual devices, such as spacing and other spatial arrangements of words and letters.
  Rhetorical schemes of repetition (anaphora, epistrophe, antithesis, etc.), though this would fall in your third category. 
  HA, thanks much, Sam.  The "Ha," is because spacing, etc., which I call forms of "flow-breaks," is to me the identifying technical device of poetry!

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman  Mon Aug 15 17:21:34 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:21:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to Bob (and Uche)
References: <43007AA5.15132.168892E@localhost>
Message-ID: <008e01c5a1df$50a02a60$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> Note, in particular, my disclaimer.  Kent's snipping that seems typical 
>> of
>> him, as typical as his again ignoring my question.
>
> Oh, that's rich -- Grumman complaining about someone else name-
> calling.

"Ignoring my question" equals "name-calling?"

--Bob G. 





From marcus  Mon Aug 15 17:54:27 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:54:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4300D6D3.2039.2D09B09@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2005 at 17:20, Bob Grumman wrote:
>   HA, thanks much, Sam.  The "Ha," is because spacing, etc., which I
> call forms of "flow-breaks," is to me the identifying technical device of
> poetry!

I don't see how you can have flow breaks without meter unless you call 
the end of every line in prose a flow break.

Marcus





From schloss  Mon Aug 15 19:24:34 2005
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:24:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com>
	<008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
Last night I thought I had determined that there were four kinds of
technical devices used in poems--for me, at least.  Now I can only think of
three: figures of speech, auditory devices (meter, rhyme, alliteration,
etc.) and heightened language or diction.  Can anyone think of any other?
<snip>

Where would you fit acrostics, mesostics and telestiches into all this? Are
they purely visual? And where would you place the sort of quasi echolalia
one finds pervasively in a poet like Amelia Rosselli: repetition of very
similar words (potere = power and podere = farm, for example), of individual
words and of the roots of words? That sort of device heightens language
without being rhetorical and it has both auditory and visual effects as
well.

CW
__________________________________________

'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
(Morton Feldman's grandmother)





From bobgrumman  Mon Aug 15 19:27:18 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:27:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <4300D6D3.2039.2D09B09@localhost>
Message-ID: <00ff01c5a1f0$e105e4d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 15 Aug 2005 at 17:20, Bob Grumman wrote:
>>   HA, thanks much, Sam.  The "Ha," is because spacing, etc., which I
>> call forms of "flow-breaks," is to me the identifying technical device of
>> poetry!
>
> I don't see how you can have flow breaks without meter unless you call
> the end of every line in prose a flow break.
>
> Marcus

In prose, all lines end at the same EXPECTED place (except at the ends of 
paragraphs and, rarely, elsewhere).  Hence, for readers they do not act as 
significant flow-breaks.  Moreover, orally-presented prose breaks only at 
punctuation marks that indicated COMPLETED thoughts.  That may be the key: 
flow-breaks prevent thoughts from being completed, punctuation marks do not.

I thank you for showing me where I might make my definition even more exact 
than it is in my formal discussion of flow-breaks (and not above); at the 
same time, I aver that most people will not need greater exactitude, for 
most people will understand the difference between the flow-break that a 
line-break (for instance) causes and the lesser, ignorable pauses that occur 
in prose paragraphs.

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman  Mon Aug 15 20:14:31 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:14:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> <snip>
> Last night I thought I had determined that there were four kinds of
> technical devices used in poems--for me, at least.  Now I can only think 
> of
> three: figures of speech, auditory devices (meter, rhyme, alliteration,
> etc.) and heightened language or diction.  Can anyone think of any other?
> <snip>
>
> Where would you fit acrostics, mesostics and telestiches into all this? 
> Are they purely visual?

Interesting question.  (Mesostics and telestiches are kinds of acrostics I 
should mention, to save anyone's having to look them up, as I just now did. 
An acrostic, which I didn't have to look up, is a poem in which, say, a word 
or phrase is formed by the first letter of each line.)  My initial thought 
is that an acrostic is a form.  A sonnet is a poem with rhymes in certain 
positions; an acrostic is a poem with spellings in certain positions.

>And where would you place the sort of quasi echolalia
> one finds pervasively in a poet like Amelia Rosselli: repetition of very
> similar words (potere = power and podere = farm, for example), of 
> individual
> words and of the roots of words? That sort of device heightens language
> without being rhetorical and it has both auditory and visual effects as
> well.
>
> CW

Actually, I miswrote in my list of technical devices: "auditory devices" in 
my poetics are actually a sub-category of "repenemes" or repeated elements 
of language (and visual as well as auditory). Seems to me, without (again) 
long reflection, that the Rosselli device would be a repeneme.

Thatnks for the questions.  I'll think more on them.

--Bob G. 





From david.bircumshaw  Tue Aug 16 04:15:41 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:15:41 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001201c5a12e$570b8ef0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00af01c5a16f$7e5db780$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<003101c5a186$d52f1790$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00bd01c5a23a$b2101b10$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> Thanks.  I now remember this.  I enjoyed it.


Bob, that is the most likeable response one can get from a poem.

With the Muse, last week I went on a re-reading and re-reading binge, so it
started off with the Gawaine poem, I love that as my very echt West Midlands
accent is close to but not identical with the way 'Clerke of Tranent'
actually spoke. But, via a reading of Jubilate Agno and, praise be, at last,
the full text of Poly-Olbion (Drayton isn't a great poet but a great
curiosity) but I ended up with Chaucer, who could but lewedly of metre and
rhyme. Now Chaucer is the antidote to angst, along with Shakespeare (when he
is in a good mood - I'm amazed btw that Kent subscribes to the Oxford
nonsense - does this mean that Kent is a surrogate Victorian snob?) because
the Muse in Chaucer is the Wyf of Bath, that is to say a very raunchy larger
than life humorous personality.

It's fun.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] XX


> Thanks.  I now remember this.  I enjoyed it.
>
> --Bob
>
> >> David, I apparently missed your "substitions" post.  Am curious about
> >> what
> >> you said.
> >
> >
> > Bob, the post was a poem, re the 'Muse' theme, with a couple of
> > typo-infected prefatory remarks about not being able to exactly
reproduce
> > the format in e-mail. Here's the poem again, apologies to those who've
> > already seen it:
> >
> > Quicksilver
> >
> > He shall be flesshie of nose, and spare of body, and as the Sunne is
lord
> > of
> > light, dry of nature though quick and crafty and subtill of Wit and
Tongue
> > and Science and will have great love for ladies and gentlewomen yet
shall
> > have great harm by them and when he is married, men shall not set so
much
> > store by him as they did before. He shall be a friend of rogues and
> > vagabonds yet be servant or carrier to some great Lord or else a
receiver
> > of
> > his money and will love to preach and speake faire language and
rhetorick.
> > You may denote him by the little finger. He shall take his hue from what
> > surrounds, he shall be unloving, loving, unlusting, lusting. A shepherd
of
> > thin dreams who brings the coat of many colours a night-watching and a
> > door-waylaying thief. Who lives for others. He shall be a good man of
the
> > church and not espouse the Arts of Warre. He shall account of worth
> > schools,
> > jackdaws, hares, bowling greens, telephones, swallows, fairs at
> > WhitMonday,
> > digital radio, foxes, squirrels, sarabandes, the Great Western line,
> > blackbirds, rivers in winter, curls, lavender and wine, the search for
> > distant planets as in those presumed about Beta Pictori or 66 Cancri,
> > board-games, the night sky, tennis courts, libraries, leather,
> > lepidoptera,
> > moorhens, weasels and all those by nature witty and inconstant. He shall
> > love poetrie and fear Apollo. He shall sign on on Fridays and drink dry
> > cider. He shall look for his soul in others' eyes.
> >
> > I woke in the small hours and turned to my side. I've been dreaming I
was
> > alive
> >
> > I mumbled. Not now, I'm tired she replied
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> > <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] XX
> >
> >
> >> David, I apparently missed your "substitions" post.  Am curious about
> >> what
> >> you said.
> >>
> >> > I'd like to know why Bob has this desire to simplify, or how he
regards
> >> > metrics as a source of reason.
> >>
> >> I want to simplify everything to make it easier to understand.  And
rout
> > the
> >> nihilists.  Also, to show/find how everything fits together, which
tends
> > to
> >> require reducing to basics.  Metrics as a source of reason?  Not sure
> >> what
> >> you mean.  I find it a source of predictability that allows for greater
> >> unpredictability in other parts of poems.  In effect, a kind of reason
> >> moderating intuition.
> >>
> >> > I always remember Hopkins' good advice on the
> >> > effect of masterpieces on him, which can be applied to any imposition
> >> > of
> >> > standardisation on poetry, to wit: 'to admire and do otherwise'.
> >>
> >> But he only used 26 letters, I believe. . . .  I could never understand
> > this
> >> idea that accurate description of something can be an imposition on
> > someone.
> >> How does the standardization of the length of inches which can be used
to
> >> measure the size of paintings impose on painters?  Or the spectographic
> >> measurement of light-waves to give exact "weights" to colors impose on
> > them?
> >> But I'm infamous hereabouts for believing one should admire
masterpieces
> > and
> >> do otherwise.
> >>
> >> --Bob G.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From schloss  Tue Aug 16 05:04:32 2005
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:04:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
My initial thought is that an acrostic is a form.  A sonnet is a poem with
rhymes in certain positions; an acrostic is a poem with spellings in certain
positions.
<snip>

Interesting. However, a sonnet is less formally fixed than it is fixed
socially: it moves on in fuzzy ways. (If I could remember the British poet
now writing *sonnets* from which most of the words are erased I would cite
him at this point. Unfortunately, though, my memory has done its own sort of
erasure.) An acrostic, on the other hand, ceases to be one as soon as the
left hand side fails to spell something out. Potentially, apart from that
one detail, anything goes. In that respect an acrostic is a device like,
say, rhyme: you can't have a full rhyme unless the rhyme is full.

<snip>
Seems to me, without (again) long reflection, that the Rosselli device would
be a repeneme
<snip>

Yes. It fits well into some box marked 'repeating device'. But it lacks
formal rules for positioning, rhetorical rules for the circumstances in
which it might be used and even experiential rules. In one case, she ends
two successive lines with 'contro' (= against) and the next line with 'con'
(= with), as though the 'tro' has been clipped. What then follows is a
series of 'con's (the word, not the sound) to which one has a heightened
visual, auditory and rhetorical responsiveness.

CW
__________________________________________

'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
(Morton Feldman's grandmother)





From bobgrumman  Tue Aug 16 06:41:11 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:41:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> <snip>
> My initial thought is that an acrostic is a form.  A sonnet is a poem with
> rhymes in certain positions; an acrostic is a poem with spellings in 
> certain
> positions.
> <snip>
>
> Interesting. However, a sonnet is less formally fixed than it is fixed
> socially: it moves on in fuzzy ways. (If I could remember the British poet
> now writing *sonnets* from which most of the words are erased I would cite
> him at this point.

Well, as a crusty reactionary when it comes to terminology, I would just say 
that a lot of poets and critics have come to misuse the term, "sonnet." 
Although the poem with erased words may be what I'd call a sonnet since it 
would seem to be "correct" if that it has 140 syllables, some erased, rather 
than 170, say, with none erased.

 >Unfortunately, though, my memory has done its own sort of
> erasure.) An acrostic, on the other hand, ceases to be one as soon as the
> left hand side fails to spell something out. Potentially, apart from that
> one detail, anything goes. In that respect an acrostic is a device like,
> say, rhyme: you can't have a full rhyme unless the rhyme is full.

But, I could write a non-acrostic and call it an acrostic.  I actually think 
such a poem might be effective!  The idea would be to represent incoherence 
or the difficulty of communication or the like. . . .

> <snip>
> Seems to me, without (again) long reflection, that the Rosselli device 
> would
> be a repeneme
> <snip>
>
> Yes. It fits well into some box marked 'repeating device'. But it lacks
> formal rules for positioning, rhetorical rules for the circumstances in
> which it might be used and even experiential rules.

Seems to me that would make it like alliteration, consonance, assonance in 
normal use.  But maybe with increased connotative value, which would put it 
in my category, as you first suggested, of language-heightening device.

--Bob G.


 In one case, she ends
> two successive lines with 'contro' (= against) and the next line with 
> 'con'
> (= with), as though the 'tro' has been clipped. What then follows is a
> series of 'con's (the word, not the sound) to which one has a heightened
> visual, auditory and rhetorical responsiveness.





From bobgrumman  Tue Aug 16 06:46:31 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:46:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001201c5a12e$570b8ef0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00af01c5a16f$7e5db780$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><003101c5a186$d52f1790$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00bd01c5a23a$b2101b10$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <001801c5a24f$c4240c20$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

But, via a reading of Jubilate Agno and, praise be, at last,
> the full text of Poly-Olbion (Drayton isn't a great poet but a great
> curiosity)

Yes, I really hope some day to have time to read him.

I'm amazed btw that Kent subscribes to the Oxford
> nonsense - does this mean that Kent is a surrogate Victorian snob?)

Nah--he's just a knee-jerk controversialist.  Will take up any 
attention-getting side of an attention-getting controversy.  But, in this 
case, he also likes the idea of someone using a pseudonym.

--Bob G. 





From marcus  Tue Aug 16 08:03:52 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:03:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <00ff01c5a1f0$e105e4d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <43019DE8.2363.4D444@localhost>

> > On 15 Aug 2005 at 17:20, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >>   HA, thanks much, Sam.  The "Ha," is because spacing, etc., which I
> >> call forms of "flow-breaks," is to me the identifying technical device of
> >> poetry!

Marcus Bales wrote:
> > I don't see how you can have flow breaks without meter unless you call
> > the end of every line in prose a flow break.

Bob Grumman wrote:
> In prose, all lines end at the same EXPECTED place (except at the ends of 
> paragraphs and, rarely, elsewhere).<

This is simply not so. In prose the lines end at UNexpected places 
because the line breaks are not decided by the writer but by the tyhpe-
setter or the computer program.  That's the point. If you are going to 
claim that flow breaks create poetry, then there is a flow break at the 
end of every line in prose -- why isn't that poetry? Well, for you, maybe it 
is!

Bob Grumman wrote:
> Hence, for readers they do not act as 
> significant flow-breaks.  Moreover, orally-presented prose breaks only at 
> punctuation marks that indicated COMPLETED thoughts.  That may be the key: 
> flow-breaks prevent thoughts from being completed, punctuation marks do not.<

Oh, "significant" flow breaks! Not just flow breaks, but SIGNIFICANT 
flow breaks!  Well that changes everything, of course -- but 
unfortunately for you that means you have to define significant and 
insignificant in this context or you're just equivocating on the phrase 
"flow break" whenever you use it.

Bob Grumman wrote:
> most people will understand the difference between the flow-break that a 
> line-break (for instance) causes and the lesser, ignorable pauses that occur 
> in prose paragraphs.<

This is nothing but the "real Scotsman" logical fallacy -- your reasoning 
could be the poster child for this logical fallacy: "No Scotsman eats his 
porridge with sugar. Sandy is a Scotsman and he eats his porridge with 
sugar. No, no TRUE Scotsman eats ..." It's bad reasoning. 

When you say that a flow-break is the distinguishing mark of poetry, 
which is to say that ALL poetry has flow-breaks but you don't define 
flow-breaks as anything other than " ... spacing, etc., which I call forms 
of "flow-breaks," well, prose has flow breaks, then -- because you 
haven't defined them as needing to be short or needing to be 
typographical or needing to be content-based, or anything. You've just 
said they have to be breaks. So why aren't line ends in prose, and 
sentence ends, and paragraph ends, and chapter ends, in prose flow-
breaks? 

You're going to have to do better than "real Scotsman" reasoning, or get 
laughed out of the discussion -- and better than "everyone knows" 
reasoning, too, or there's just no point to your saying anything at all 
about what "everyone knows", is there?

Marcus








From schloss  Tue Aug 16 09:51:51 2005
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:51:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
But, I could write a non-acrostic and call it an acrostic. [BG]
<snip>

Indeed. I've no problem with that. But that would be gestural, and I'm not
sure how you admit that as a device. Poetry is not without its own
pragmatics: one acts within a context against the cognitive environment of
one's individual readers. However, an acrostic remains a device as you might
determine devices rather than (or as well as) a form in the sense that
(excluding pragmatics) the choice is binary: either it really is there or it
isn't.

<snip>
Seems to me that would make it like alliteration, consonance, assonance in
normal use.  But maybe with increased connotative value, which would put it
in my category, as you first suggested, of language-heightening device. [BG]
<snip>

It may have any or all of those features, but... Essentially this is an
issue out of mereology: ie there's a whole thing going on which is more than
the sum of those parts. And it's not assimilable as rhetoric, which might
seem the most obvious other option: it calls attention to itself in a purely
formal sense; the enhancement of meaning may be pretty much
epiphenomenal.

Let me a little more concrete, if I can. What Rosselli is doing, I think, is
to take one of the tics in how we tend to speak in normal life and
_amplifying_ it to the point where it comes to seem very peculiar.

<snip>
Oh, "significant" flow breaks! Not just flow breaks, but SIGNIFICANT
flow breaks!  Well that changes everything, of course -- but
unfortunately for you that means you have to define significant and
insignificant in this context or you're just equivocating on the phrase
"flow break" whenever you use it. [MB]
<snip>

This strikes me as a much less weighty objection than it might appear.
Giving significance to line breaks seems to me not dissimilar to labelling
something an acrostic when it's 'not' or amplifying verbal tics. The key
point, surely, is that *significance* isn't found in texts, in formal
devices per se, but in the minds of writers and readers. So one is back with
Grice, Sperber or whomever in search of some principled theory of relevance,
examining how the function part of the form/function continuum gets altered
rather than concentrating purely upon form.

CW
__________________________________________

'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
(Morton Feldman's grandmother)





From marcus  Tue Aug 16 10:20:07 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:20:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <4301BDD7.16976.818F8A@localhost>

Marcus Bales wrote:
> Oh, "significant" flow breaks! Not just flow breaks, but SIGNIFICANT
> flow breaks!  Well that changes everything, of course -- but
> unfortunately for you that means you have to define significant and
> insignificant in this context or you're just equivocating on the phrase
> "flow break" whenever you use it. [MB]

Christopher Walker wrote:
> This strikes me as a much less weighty objection than it might appear.
> Giving significance to line breaks seems to me not dissimilar to labelling
> something an acrostic when it's 'not' or amplifying verbal tics. The key
> point, surely, is that *significance* isn't found in texts, in formal
> devices per se, but in the minds of writers and readers. So one is back with
> Grice, Sperber or whomever in search of some principled theory of relevance,
> examining how the function part of the form/function continuum gets altered
> rather than concentrating purely upon form.<

I don't object to "giving significance to line breaks" -- I just want 
Grumman to define what he means by "signficant line breaks" because I 
suspect he's never read Grice and hasn't a clue about what he's getting 
himself into by offering this adjective. As he offers it, it is the "no true 
Scotsman" fallacy; there may be significance to line breaks, but 
Grumman hasn't offered anything that looks remotely usable. His notion 
that "everyone knows" what significance is in this context is complete 
nonsense, since there's no need for critical theories, not even 
Grumman's, where one's normative experience is satisfactory.

Marcus





From robin.hamilton2  Tue Aug 16 10:44:54 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:44:54 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <4301BDD7.16976.818F8A@localhost>
Message-ID: <004101c5a271$11774340$309f9951@Robin>

> I don't object to "giving significance to line breaks" -- I just want
> Grumman to define what he means by "signficant line breaks" because I
> suspect he's never read Grice and hasn't a clue about what he's getting
> himself into by offering this adjective. As he offers it, it is the "no
true
> Scotsman" fallacy; there may be significance to line breaks, but
> Grumman hasn't offered anything that looks remotely usable. His notion
> that "everyone knows" what significance is in this context is complete
> nonsense, since there's no need for critical theories, not even
> Grumman's, where one's normative experience is satisfactory.
>
> Marcus

I possibly shouldn't intervene here (and reluctantly admit to not only not
having read Grice but not even having heard of him before this thread) but
aren't we into the territory of that old chestnut, "A poem is something
which stops short of the right-hand edge of the page."

Prose texts can be transposed from one lineation to another, as almost
invariably happens when editions change, without any loss of information or
coherence, whereas the lineation of a poem is integral to the structure of
the text.

I suppose it has to be more complex than that, and I await enlightenment
with anticipation.

(And please, no marginal cases like sequences of slogans or whatever.  I am
aware of that difficulty.)

Robin






From grahamd  Tue Aug 16 10:56:41 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:56:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <004101c5a271$11774340$309f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <BF2768D8.13961%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 8/16/05 9:44 AM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com wrote:

> but
> aren't we into the territory of that old chestnut, "A poem is something
> which stops short of the right-hand edge of the page."


About the only definition of verse that seems airtight, yes, if airtight is
your aim.  And I'd be happy to leave it at that, myself, calling prose poems
something else (I've always appreciated Borges's term "fictions").

I like the concept of "flow-breaks," myself, and the term itself seems less
hideous than many.  But one problem is that it's too general to be of great
usefulness for poetry; seems to me that all literature is full of
flow-breaks--*Moby Dick* and *Pride & Prejudice* no less than *The Waste
Land*.  

My notion of flow-breaks would be those techniques which foreground diction
and figure, slow the reader down, provide meaningful resistance to
oversimplification, and so forth.  What the old Russian formalists called
defamiliarization, in other words:  not a single technique, but an effect
achievable by any number of means.  (Possibly Bob G. means something more
limited.)

In any case, a free verse linebreak is understandable in terms of being one
technique (among many) to achieve the "literariness" of literature.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From schloss  Tue Aug 16 11:34:57 2005
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:34:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <4301BDD7.16976.818F8A@localhost>
	<004101c5a271$11774340$309f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <002801c5a278$0ef241e0$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
what significance is in this context is complete nonsense, since there's no
need for critical theories, not even Grumman's, where one's normative
experience is satisfactory. [MB]
<snip>

That there is 'no need' for theory where 'experience' is shared is common,
surely, to various theories of how texts are *understood*: German reception
aesthetics, Sperber's relevance theory and Fish's reader response theory,
for example. (That experience is shared only patchily is, of course, one of
life's little problems.)

<snip>
Prose texts can be transposed from one lineation to another, as almost
invariably happens when editions change, without any loss of information or
coherence, whereas the lineation of a poem is integral to the structure of
the text. [RH]
<snip>

I like your scrupulous avoidance of *meaning* in using terms like
'coherence' or 'structure'. As I suggested previously, meaning may actually
be to some degree epiphenomenal in poetry in a way it may not be in prose or
(even more tentatively) in verse.

When visual lineation is a determining part of structure, altering that
lineation will surely damage that structure. However, where visual lineation
adds no further information (clear metrical pattern, end rhymes and so
forth)  it is then appreciably more like large print for the poorly sighted
and less like a *device*, I suspect.

CW
__________________________________________

'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
(Morton Feldman's grandmother)





From JforJames  Tue Aug 16 11:39:49 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:39:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ange Mlinko
Message-ID: <c.4afb568a.303362c5@aol.com>

THREE OLD NEW GAMES 
 
1. Lobster Hopscotch
 
He'd helped them get an A on their group project by not contributing,
she continued, and with such logic
brandished the whip at which his panache would flutter
or muster, not sure. Temperatures were slurring toward Halloween;
sorcerers were placing bookmarks at the still points of the soccer shuffle
southeast; and the sigils on manholes or mystical portals,
depending, summoned one for jury duty in the husk-colored margins
of streets around dancing school.
 
In the many commas peppered, in the loving borders of thick black lines
like squash vines untangled into handwriting, they buried their notes
folding them differently every time in lieu of glue.
 
A cape of rain hit the horned land. "Why are there ruins in the sky?"
the page asked, visualizing errors
where there really were decisions rendered transparent
that became more interesting than the subject; the princess replied,
"Because it's too late to be meteoric, silly."
 
2. Shakespearean Deer-Stealing
 
The sun's prominences
Can't be seen with the naked eye and yet adhering closely
To the contentions of science
We should assume a mane.
But what is a nucleus?
What's the nucleus of a horse?
This is the "What, ho!" of our leniency
At the easel, our plenitude
Garnished by whose woods these are,
Whence "deer-stealing."
 
Schoolkids jumping the jellyfish fences
Wearing cranberry jackets
Through the paisley briars and stars
In starred wire.
 
3. Crocodile Closing One Eye
 
Two men share a birthday
and "forest" is a superlative.
The winter trees look like Catherine Deneuve.
 
They walk along the path.
"Ah, you aren't so ectomorphic under all that exercise!"
Yes, but what does it mean to "sleep badly" last night--
that sleeping is an exercise and won't,
at cross purposes to advice, avail the cold loitering
in your auberge cells or help you rest. Merde!
as they say in front of those who can spell.
 
But they are empirical. Squisito mosquito!
Indian paintbrush "smells like sugar"--
The niece has the index. She checks the index:
Silk, how to make. It spins a thread stronger than steel.
"I guess it's the heavy October air" that assists the baseball.
 
Under the beech a balded love seat,
A Victorian children's book & thou.
Will start to notice the speech around thee
Start to echo what thou art reading.
Other people have entered the shop.
The book has interpenetrated its environment.
Thou shuttest it quickly
Trapped in a gold watch
O my hour hand!
 
What is a whiskey conservative? an optic nerve?
Attempting to show her her blind spot splits conversation into non sequiturs.

--Ange Mlinko

-------------------------------------

The author of Matinees, Ange Mlinko lives in Brooklyn with her husband and 
young son.

-------------------------------------

Catch Ange reading from her new work at Studio 1001, The Burning Chair 
Reading Series, or St. Mark's. For more information about readings, go to: 
http://coffeehousepress.org/events.asp

-------------------------------------

"Three Old New Games" copyright (c) 2005 by Ange Mlinko.  From Starred Wire.  
Used with the permission of Coffee House Press 
(http://www.coffeehousepress.org/).

-------------------------------------

E-verse is a free service presented by Milkweed Editions 
(http://www.milkweed.org). For more information or to unsubscribe, please
e-mail us at webmaster at milkweed.org.

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From cervantes.james  Tue Aug 16 11:42:27 2005
From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:42:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <002801c5a278$0ef241e0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
References: <4301BDD7.16976.818F8A@localhost>
	<004101c5a271$11774340$309f9951@Robin>
	<002801c5a278$0ef241e0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <648208b60508160842273c7a00@mail.gmail.com>

For what it's worth, the gmail ads kicked up by this post were:

$1,200/Hr For Poems?
Take Our Poem Survey And We'll Pay You $300 In The Next 15 Minutes!
HighPaySurveys.com

We need writers
Publish, be read, and get paid. Start writing instantly!
www.blogit.com/

Systems Theory
The building blocks of reality are not parts but wholes - systems!
www.ecologyofbeing.com

Clever, aren't they?

- Jim

On 8/16/05, Christopher Walker <schloss at mail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> what significance is in this context is complete nonsense, since there's no
> need for critical theories, not even Grumman's, where one's normative
> experience is satisfactory. [MB]
> <snip>
> 
> That there is 'no need' for theory where 'experience' is shared is common,
> surely, to various theories of how texts are *understood*: German reception
> aesthetics, Sperber's relevance theory and Fish's reader response theory,
> for example. (That experience is shared only patchily is, of course, one of
> life's little problems.)
> 
> <snip>
> Prose texts can be transposed from one lineation to another, as almost
> invariably happens when editions change, without any loss of information or
> coherence, whereas the lineation of a poem is integral to the structure of
> the text. [RH]
> <snip>
> 
> I like your scrupulous avoidance of *meaning* in using terms like
> 'coherence' or 'structure'. As I suggested previously, meaning may actually
> be to some degree epiphenomenal in poetry in a way it may not be in prose or
> (even more tentatively) in verse.
> 
> When visual lineation is a determining part of structure, altering that
> lineation will surely damage that structure. However, where visual lineation
> adds no further information (clear metrical pattern, end rhymes and so
> forth)  it is then appreciably more like large print for the poorly sighted
> and less like a *device*, I suspect.
> 
> CW
> __________________________________________
> 
> 'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
> (Morton Feldman's grandmother)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Homepages: http://home.earthlink.net/~jvcervantes/
http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html 
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org




From William_Knott  Tue Aug 16 14:46:51 2005
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:46:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B58@mail.emerson.edu>

R.S. Thomas is a poet i particularly admire and read
for pleasure, and also with the desire to learn from his marvelous
skills and craft...  
As an ordained Anglican priest he served for forty years in 
rural parishes in Wales....  his poems are reiteratively if 
not exclusively concerned with the spiritual life....  i don't 
share his faith, but as i read him i grow more and more 
envious of the rich metaphorical contexts which Christianity 
provides for his poems. . . He can return, he does return,
again and again to those (supposed) interactions and
confrontations between human and deity, and somehow
Thomas can bring these old ciphers back to life. . . unlike
Yeats, Thomas was never fearful that his poetry might be "the
garment of religion."

But doesn't the fact that Thomas was a priest validate and 
justify and authenicate the spiritual concerns of his
poetry . . .   I'm not asking that Jarman and Jane Hirshfield
and Di Piero and other contemporary US poets whose 
careers benefit  from the current political hegemony of 
conservative religious forces, put their sanctimony where
their mouth is and take up the pulpit. . .

(i don't admire these latter, i think they're bad poets for
the most part, Hirshfield is egregiously bad, but is it 
because i question
their sincerity or their esthetic or both. . . )

Here's a stanza in English translation from a long poem called
"Recycling" by the Polish master Rozewicz (from the eponymous
book pubbed by Arc in 2001; trans. by Barbara Plebanek and Tony
Howard):

Joaquin Navarro-Valls
press spokesman
for the Holy See
would not confirm
reports
broadcast on the American
T.V. network A & E
that the Vatican secreted
200 million swiss francs
principally gold coins
looted by croatian
fascists during the second
world war
croatian fascists who
mass murdered
Serbs Jews and Gypsies
carried 350 million swiss francs
out of Yugoslavia
before the end of the war
the British managed to intercept
about 150 million swiss
francs the rest
reached the Vatican whence
rumours suggested
it was transferred
to Spain and Argentina

....end quote.  As he says toward the end of this section of 
the poem, "zlote bylo milczenie swiata" :
gold was the world's silence

(. . . gold can certainly buy the silence of most of us,
but fortunately there always some like Rozewicz and Kent
Johnson who won't bargain).....

.... but my question is whether the Rozewicz i quoted, is religious
poetry?  It's certainly about one important aspect of religion which
 normative religious poets like Jarman
don't dwell on, except in speciously abstract mea culpas. . . .

Let me end by quoting one of my faves from Thomas:

TRAMP

A knock at the door
And he stands there,
A tramp with his can
Asking for tea,
Strong for a poor man
On his way?where?

He looks at his feet,
I look at the sky;
Over us the planes build
The shifting rafters
Of the new world
We have sworn by.

I sleep in my bed,
He sleeps in the old,
Dead leaves of a ditch.
My dreams are haunted;
Are his dreams rich?
If I wake early,
He wakes cold.

*

  ....   knotthead











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From marcus  Tue Aug 16 16:03:29 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:03:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name-calling
In-Reply-To: <004101c5a271$11774340$309f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <43020E51.9213.3A9D5F@localhost>

Insult generator based on catchy phrases frequently used in North Korean
propaganda:

http://www.nk-news.net/extras/insult_generator.php

The overall site is interesting, appalling, amusing and frightening too --
as a personal project, this guy created a searchable database of all the
propaganda content on the Korean Central News Agency website. Everything
links back to KCNA's actual articles because -- get this -- the Stalinist
North Korean state has copyrighted everything on their site and vigorously
defends the copyright. Lots more fun stuff on the site -- check it out.

http://www.nk-news.net/index.php

Marcus





From marcus  Tue Aug 16 16:10:48 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:10:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <BF2768D8.13961%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <004101c5a271$11774340$309f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <43021008.12636.414DC6@localhost>

On 16 Aug 2005 at 15:44, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> aren't we into the territory of that old chestnut, "A poem is something
> which stops short of the right-hand edge of the page."

That was Jeremy Bentham's utilitarian joke.

On 16 Aug 2005 at 15:44, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> Prose texts can be transposed from one lineation to another, as 
almost
> invariably happens when editions change, without any loss of 
information
> or coherence, whereas the lineation of a poem is integral to the
> structure of the text.

But my question to Grumman remains: why aren't those transposable 
lineations "flow breaks"? Grumman's avant garde sensibility ought to be
delighted, it seems to me, with the notion that every edition of a poem
would produce a different set of "flow breaks", randomly. But perhaps 
he's
not as avant garde as all that. If not, then he needs to define his terms
-- especially "significant" -- in order to make a reasonable point.
Otherwise he's just using the "no true scotsman" fallacy or the appeal to
popularity fallacy: "everyone knows". 

Marcus







From anny.ballardini  Tue Aug 16 17:04:27 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:04:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ladies and gentlemen
Message-ID: <032401c5a2a6$16a52640$beab3452@ANNY>

Brent Cunningham 
  Three Poems 
    Eleventh Oration (City of the Sun) 



          Ladies and gentlemen, the youths of this country are bored.  You'd think just being alive
          and youths would excite them, but not at all.  This morning the sky was clear, I was at
          campus, and everyone was despondent. 
          Are there any youths in this room?  Then consider, if you will, the tide of Being behind
          you, those negative masses standing in your cement areas, your grassy areas, and your
          areas neither grassy nor cement. 

          Are you terrified, youths?  Do you think you're more than killable?  Isn't it irrefutable
          that every personal world, with its health, is destroyed four times over, all savings
          depleted, before there is meanwhile anything else to learn or see? 

          But how lovely the wind off the sea today.  How tempting to lecture you on signs and
          calculations. 


         

from Shampoo
http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooTwentyfour/cunningham.html

sent by La Chatelaine - Eileen Tabios
http://chatelaine-poet.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_chatelaine-poet_archive.html#112414137578250296

sent there by Karri Kokko
http://karrikokko.blogspot.com/



___________________________________________________________
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From marcus  Tue Aug 16 16:14:28 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:14:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <430210E4.4921.44A945@localhost>

> <snip>
> what significance is in this context is complete nonsense, since there's
> no need for critical theories, not even Grumman's, where one's 
normative
> experience is satisfactory. [MB] <snip>

On 16 Aug 2005 at 16:34, Christopher Walker wrote:
> That there is 'no need' for theory where 'experience' is shared is
> common, surely, to various theories of how texts are *understood*:
> German reception aesthetics, Sperber's relevance theory and Fish's
> reader response theory, for example. (That experience is shared only
> patchily is, of course, one of life's little problems.)

Thank you for articulating more clearly, I hope, what I was trying to say.
My point is that Grumman has to do a better job of defining his terms in
his critical theory _because_ it's not good enough to say "everyone 
knows"
because it's obvious that everyone _doesn't_ know, not only because, 
as
you say, experience is shared only patchily, but because different 
people
use different theories to approach their experience -- and sometimes the
same people use different theories depending on whether their 
experience
is aesthetic or ethical or emotional or political or whatever.

Christopher Walker wrote:
> When visual lineation is a determining part of structure, altering that
> lineation will surely damage that structure. However, where visual
> lineation adds no further information (clear metrical pattern, end
> rhymes and so forth)  it is then appreciably more like large print for
> the poorly sighted and less like a *device*, I suspect.

Just so -- and that's exactly why Grumman's notions fail, at least so far,
to satisfy. He has to define what he means by "significant" or else his
notion of "flow-break" is like the ends of prose lines or, as you so
acutely say, more like large print, and less like an identifying marker
for what distinguishes poetry from non-poetry.

Marcus




From bobgrumman  Tue Aug 16 18:22:15 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:22:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <43019DE8.2363.4D444@localhost>
Message-ID: <003101c5a2b0$f590ab90$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Bob Grumman wrote:
>> In prose, all lines end at the same EXPECTED place (except at the ends of
>> paragraphs and, rarely, elsewhere).<
>
> This is simply not so. In prose the lines end at UNexpected places
> because the line breaks are not decided by the writer but by the tyhpe-
> setter or the computer program.

In printed prose, the lines end at the expected place, the right-hand 
margin.

--Bob G. 





From bobgrumman  Tue Aug 16 19:20:59 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:20:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> <snip>
> But, I could write a non-acrostic and call it an acrostic. [BG]
> <snip>
>
> Indeed. I've no problem with that. But that would be gestural, and I'm not
> sure how you admit that as a device.

I guess I would not.  Unless as some kind of conceptual implicit 
metaphor--this nullostic poem is an acrostic.  I can't think of any way to 
make such a metaphor effective, but believe someone could.  At this point, 
I'm content to call acrostics a kind of form.

 Poetry is not without its own
> pragmatics: one acts within a context against the cognitive environment of
> one's individual readers. However, an acrostic remains a device as you 
> might
> determine devices rather than (or as well as) a form in the sense that
> (excluding pragmatics) the choice is binary: either it really is there or 
> it
> isn't.

I don't see this.  A sonnet is there or not, too.  If I call form the way 
the elements of a poem are arranged, and I do, then an acrostic is a form. 
I might add that a partial acrostic would exist if the word down the side 
(or wherever) has missing letters or is misspelled, etc.).

> <snip>
> Seems to me that would make it like alliteration, consonance, assonance in
> normal use.  But maybe with increased connotative value, which would put 
> it
> in my category, as you first suggested, of language-heightening device. 
> [BG]
> <snip>
>
> It may have any or all of those features, but... Essentially this is an
> issue out of mereology: ie there's a whole thing going on which is more 
> than
> the sum of those parts. And it's not assimilable as rhetoric, which might
> seem the most obvious other option: it calls attention to itself in a 
> purely
> formal sense; the enhancement of meaning may be pretty much
> epiphenomenal.

It's probably only or best investigated case by case.  I provisionally 
suggest (as above) that it is always in my repeneme or repeated elements 
category, and when it makes the diction of a poem 
fresh/weird/interesting/arresting/etc. enough, it's also in my heightened 
language category.  Maybe it's some kind of allusion, too.  Which, for me, 
would make it connotative, which--in turn--would put it in the heightened 
language category.

Could be I'm straining here, but how would this feature compare with 
someone's printing a similar number of words of a text otherwise using black 
ink in blue?  This, to me, would, if anything, heighten the effect of the 
blue words--by slipping a kind of dischord into the text to give it an extra 
charge the way dischords can in music--when successful.

> Let me a little more concrete, if I can. What Rosselli is doing, I think, 
> is
> to take one of the tics in how we tend to speak in normal life and
> _amplifying_ it to the point where it comes to seem very peculiar.

Seems to me like simply giving the poems' diction a kind of seasoning, to 
heighten or enrich the diction.  I vaguely feel it might be capable of doing 
something metaphorical, as would the blue words gimmick.  Not sure how, at 
this time.

> <snip>
> Oh, "significant" flow breaks! Not just flow breaks, but SIGNIFICANT
> flow breaks!  Well that changes everything, of course -- but
> unfortunately for you that means you have to define significant and
> insignificant in this context or you're just equivocating on the phrase
> "flow break" whenever you use it. [MB]
> <snip>
>
> This strikes me as a much less weighty objection than it might appear.
> Giving significance to line breaks seems to me not dissimilar to labelling
> something an acrostic when it's 'not' or amplifying verbal tics. The key
> point, surely, is that *significance* isn't found in texts, in formal
> devices per se, but in the minds of writers and readers. So one is back 
> with
> Grice, Sperber or whomever in search of some principled theory of 
> relevance,
> examining how the function part of the form/function continuum gets 
> altered
> rather than concentrating purely upon form.
>
> CW

Everything in poetry is finally in the minds of writers and readers.  If I 
say poems have to have words, few would challenge me to define "word."  But 
there ARE artworks where that would be valid, which I would just as soon not 
get into here.  I want to stick to flow-break.

I've defined flow-breaks at my website.  If we ignore that, and just go with 
what the term seems to say, we would have to admit that it's a worthless 
term since someone like Marcus could claim that the spaces between words in 
a text break the text's flow, as they certainly do since a reader takes a 
miniscule pause at every such space.

I would claim that spaces between words, and between letters (which cause 
even shorter pauses), do not significantly break a text's flow, nor do the 
spaces before or after lines in a text all of whose lines begin at the same 
place or at about the same place near the left margin and continue to the 
same or about the same place near the right margin of a page (except at the 
end of paragraphs and, very rarely, elsewhere--the ratio counts, not the 
existence of a few or one specimen).  I would claim that the various 
punctuation marks in texts that occur at the ends of phrases and clauses 
cause a more significant breaking of flow, but it is an expected breaking of 
flow.  I arbitrarily call these things insignificant flow-breaks.  But they 
could be called significant without invalidating the use of other kinds of 
flow-breaks to define poetry, or just signal its presence.  My use of the 
word "significant" is merely to help show what I mean by flow-breaks rather 
than absolutely rigorously to define them.  (Yes, I probably was using it to 
define before.)

I can do without it by simply listing what I consider to be poetic 
flow-breaks (and they're mechanical flow-breaks, objectively determinable, 
or as objectively determinable as anything can be, so more narrow than 
David--not inappropriately) thinks of them as being).

To go by memory, I call three kinds of indentation poetic 
flow-breaks--standard line-breaks at line-ends (except at the ends of 
paragraphs); less common extreme indentations of lines from the left (except 
at the beginning of a paragraph); and pronounced gaps in the middle of 
lines.  Space is the indicator of any of these three most of the time, but I 
would accept any textual element that has the same effect--such as, for 
instance, a bunch of #'s.

I can't remember any others, to tell the truth, but think there are some. 
When I have time, I'll research Grumman and see what he says, if anything.

I'll also think more about David's idea of other kinds of flow-breaks, in 
particular the jump-cut.  That seems to me a conceptual flow-break. 
Surrealism, too.  My flow-break needs to be purely textual for taxonomic 
reasons, it seems to me--because prose certainly has jump-cuts and 
surrealistic images.  I think I'd put surrealistic images in the category, 
subject matter (which is not definitive--that is, any text has subject 
matter of some sort).  The jump-cut would be a rhetorical device.  That 
would make it appropriate to any text, poetry or prose.

I feel like I've just started discussing this but can't think of anything to 
add, at the moment.

--Bob G.


 





From david.bircumshaw  Wed Aug 17 01:52:08 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:52:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ladies and gentlemen
References: <032401c5a2a6$16a52640$beab3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <013801c5a2ef$e23d2a70$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Crumbs, this writer is extraordinary. He manages to sound like a) a breakfast table bore and b) a bad translation of Rimbaud. 

I'm impressed.

Best

Dave


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:04 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Ladies and gentlemen


  Brent Cunningham 
    Three Poems 
      Eleventh Oration (City of the Sun) 



            Ladies and gentlemen, the youths of this country are bored.  You'd think just being alive
            and youths would excite them, but not at all.  This morning the sky was clear, I was at
            campus, and everyone was despondent. 
            Are there any youths in this room?  Then consider, if you will, the tide of Being behind
            you, those negative masses standing in your cement areas, your grassy areas, and your
            areas neither grassy nor cement. 

            Are you terrified, youths?  Do you think you're more than killable?  Isn't it irrefutable
            that every personal world, with its health, is destroyed four times over, all savings
            depleted, before there is meanwhile anything else to learn or see? 

            But how lovely the wind off the sea today.  How tempting to lecture you on signs and
            calculations. 


           

  from Shampoo
  http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooTwentyfour/cunningham.html

  sent by La Chatelaine - Eileen Tabios
  http://chatelaine-poet.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_chatelaine-poet_archive.html#112414137578250296

  sent there by Karri Kokko
  http://karrikokko.blogspot.com/



  ___________________________________________________________
  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche 



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From david.bircumshaw  Wed Aug 17 02:52:16 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:52:16 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B58@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <015501c5a2f8$34fa86b0$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

William

RST is sort of alright, his drowsy reliance on iambs and anapests shovelled
together in as talking voice mode can bore, there is though, as you imply, a
sort of involvement going on. But if you want priest poets go no further
than George Herbert or Hopkins, RST just isn't in the same chapter.

Neither is Kent comparable to Tadeus Rozewicz, Kent's a very witty e-mailer
and I like his posts (and even more having a spat with him - it's fun) but
No Way that comparison.

At the moment Andrew Motion our Poet laureate is extolling the virtues of
the Haywain, this just following leaked documents which aver that the poor
Brazilian guy the police shot DIDN'T leap over a barrier in the tube
station, WASN'T wearing a heavy jacket and was actually RESTRAINED by a
surveillance officer just before he was shot 8 times in the head.

Keep on burbling about Constable Motion.

Best

Dave




----- Original Message -----
From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion


R.S. Thomas is a poet i particularly admire and read
for pleasure, and also with the desire to learn from his marvelous
skills and craft...
As an ordained Anglican priest he served for forty years in
rural parishes in Wales....  his poems are reiteratively if
not exclusively concerned with the spiritual life....  i don't
share his faith, but as i read him i grow more and more
envious of the rich metaphorical contexts which Christianity
provides for his poems. . . He can return, he does return,
again and again to those (supposed) interactions and
confrontations between human and deity, and somehow
Thomas can bring these old ciphers back to life. . . unlike
Yeats, Thomas was never fearful that his poetry might be "the
garment of religion."

But doesn't the fact that Thomas was a priest validate and
justify and authenicate the spiritual concerns of his
poetry . . .   I'm not asking that Jarman and Jane Hirshfield
and Di Piero and other contemporary US poets whose
careers benefit  from the current political hegemony of
conservative religious forces, put their sanctimony where
their mouth is and take up the pulpit. . .

(i don't admire these latter, i think they're bad poets for
the most part, Hirshfield is egregiously bad, but is it
because i question
their sincerity or their esthetic or both. . . )

Here's a stanza in English translation from a long poem called
"Recycling" by the Polish master Rozewicz (from the eponymous
book pubbed by Arc in 2001; trans. by Barbara Plebanek and Tony
Howard):

Joaquin Navarro-Valls
press spokesman
for the Holy See
would not confirm
reports
broadcast on the American
T.V. network A & E
that the Vatican secreted
200 million swiss francs
principally gold coins
looted by croatian
fascists during the second
world war
croatian fascists who
mass murdered
Serbs Jews and Gypsies
carried 350 million swiss francs
out of Yugoslavia
before the end of the war
the British managed to intercept
about 150 million swiss
francs the rest
reached the Vatican whence
rumours suggested
it was transferred
to Spain and Argentina

....end quote.  As he says toward the end of this section of
the poem, "zlote bylo milczenie swiata" :
gold was the world's silence

(. . . gold can certainly buy the silence of most of us,
but fortunately there always some like Rozewicz and Kent
Johnson who won't bargain).....

.... but my question is whether the Rozewicz i quoted, is religious
poetry?  It's certainly about one important aspect of religion which
 normative religious poets like Jarman
don't dwell on, except in speciously abstract mea culpas. . . .

Let me end by quoting one of my faves from Thomas:

TRAMP

A knock at the door
And he stands there,
A tramp with his can
Asking for tea,
Strong for a poor man
On his way?where?

He looks at his feet,
I look at the sky;
Over us the planes build
The shifting rafters
Of the new world
We have sworn by.

I sleep in my bed,
He sleeps in the old,
Dead leaves of a ditch.
My dreams are haunted;
Are his dreams rich?
If I wake early,
He wakes cold.

*

  ....   knotthead














----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From david.bircumshaw  Wed Aug 17 03:58:32 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:58:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] XX
References: <20050125182337.41498.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com><003e01c5030c$51a0a2e0$e49c9951@Robin><6.0.2.0.2.20050125123452.01b26eb0@mail.ilstu.edu><00c001c50324$7cfd7ae0$e49c9951@Robin><00fe01c50327$82ad4ad0$e49c9951@Robin><00b501c5a10c$6fbcc990$57b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003801c5a111$32ff3830$f29c9951@Robin><008101c5a129$85a76b80$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><001201c5a12e$570b8ef0$6cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00af01c5a16f$7e5db780$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><003101c5a186$d52f1790$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bd01c5a23a$b2101b10$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<001801c5a24f$c4240c20$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <016e01c5a301$76f6aea0$6ce8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Definitions of The Yad vary, for some it is written on car-number-plates in
cryptic scripts and in the spaces between invisible hyphens, for others it
the sudden scroll unscrolling scrawl of an atrophied sense, like that of
smell, for instance, which as is well-known is a reduced faculty in humans,
and often confused with precognition, unlike the case of our cousins gorilla
gorilla or pan troglodytes, despite the products and marketing of ICI and
Chanel et al. It can be

very silly, like that joke we both know, for indeed, as is said, in much
wisdom lies much folly, and verser-vicer. Etcetera, ta-rum. It can be
plangent, plaintive, like that tune we all know by Bach (yes, that one, the
one that makes us sad to be happy, happy to be sad) or one can find it in
reflection, beyond the mirror's morning call, on, say, that in Mumbai or
Calcutta the homeless have to pay to sleep on the night-streets, protection
rackets run pavement space (and we think we're hard done by, eh?) or it can
be Crashaw calling Love, thou art absolute sole or

something otherwise again. Like that bend in the road, yes, the lane's
curve, where the accidents never happen. Or maybe do. The way that water
writes. The flow. The

never-shall-be-falling-again-risen-found-it-is, the

Yaoummm, I like that she said, touch me there again.





Bob, re the Muse theme, this is my ultimate statement on the matter. The Yad
is a deliberate corrution on my part of the Hebrew term Yahad (yes, there is
a Herbrew word Yad too, but it ain't wot I mean - I just wanted something
that sounds vaguely Star Wars - may the Yad be with you, as it were) Here we
go:



Definitions of The Yad vary, for some it is written on car-number-plates in
cryptic scripts and in the spaces between invisible hyphens, for others it
the sudden scroll unscrolling scrawl of an atrophied sense, like that of
smell, for instance, which as is well-known is a reduced faculty in humans,
and often confused with precognition, unlike the case of our cousins gorilla
gorilla or pan troglodytes, despite the products and marketing of ICI and
Chanel et al. It can be

very silly, like that joke we both know, for indeed, as is said, in much
wisdom lies much folly, and verser-vicer. Etcetera, ta-rum. It can be
plangent, plaintive, like that tune we all know by Bach (yes, that one, the
one that makes us sad to be happy, happy to be sad) or one can find it in
reflection, beyond the mirror's morning call, on, say, that in Mumbai or
Calcutta the homeless have to pay to sleep on the night-streets, protection
rackets run pavement space (and we think we're hard done by, eh?) or it can
be Crashaw calling Love, thou art absolute sole or

something otherwise again. Like that bend in the road, yes, the lane's
curve, where the accidents never happen. Or maybe do. The way that water
writes. The flow. The

never-shall-be-falling-again-risen-found-it-is, the

Yaoummm, I like that she said, touch me there again.



















































> Thanks.  I now remember this.  I enjoyed i

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] XX


> But, via a reading of Jubilate Agno and, praise be, at last,
> > the full text of Poly-Olbion (Drayton isn't a great poet but a great
> > curiosity)
>
> Yes, I really hope some day to have time to read him.
>
> I'm amazed btw that Kent subscribes to the Oxford
> > nonsense - does this mean that Kent is a surrogate Victorian snob?)
>
> Nah--he's just a knee-jerk controversialist.  Will take up any
> attention-getting side of an attention-getting controversy.  But, in this
> case, he also likes the idea of someone using a pseudonym.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From schloss  Wed Aug 17 05:59:55 2005
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:59:55 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
I don't see this.  A sonnet is there or not, too.  If I call form the way
the elements of a poem are arranged, and I do, then an acrostic is a form.
I might add that a partial acrostic would exist if the word down the side
(or wherever) has missing letters or is misspelled, etc.). [BG]
<snip>

Yes. I did myself no favours in the way I put it. Would it help to say
instead that a device, element or whatever is a conceptual primitive? That
it can't be broken down any further without becoming classifiable as some
other conceptual primitive? So a *partial acrostic* is precisely that, a
*true acrostic* is precisely that, and so on, whereas a sonnet comprises
several different elements and remains a sonnet despite a fair degree of
flexibility in how it may be constructed.

On the other matters you raise, I see poetic devices as having their origins
in features of language as it is used. So David G's reference to ostranenie
is certainly relevant: the experience of speech prosody, accidental rhyming
etc leads to corresponding devices; the experience of parsing a printed page
contributes to a greater interest in visual ordering, and so on. But
Rosselli's device, to continue with that example, emerges more directly out
of things that happen anyway than, say, the blue text of your example. An
illustration of what I mean might be the way in which Alan Sondheim uses the
effect of plain text editing (amongst other things) against itself. One of
the experiences informing that approach is that of using mailers.

As to audible pauses, visible gaps and flow-breaks, I'd want to distinguish
quite precisely between sound effects and visual effects before considering
how they interact. I'm thinking less of whatever quantitative distinction
there might be between, say, a comma and a line break than of the
qualitatively different effects of the punctuation and the line breaks in,
say, Spicer's

                                           Aimlessly
It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No
One listens to poetry.

Does that make any sense? (BTW the repeated 'aimless' here is an example of
the sort of rhetorical effect that Rosselli for her part denatures and makes
strange.)

CW
__________________________________________

'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
(Morton Feldman's grandmother)





From JforJames  Wed Aug 17 09:07:47 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:07:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] results of the annual Wergle Flomp Poetry Contest
Message-ID: <19c.399e1955.303490a3@aol.com>

 
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/prweb/20050815/bs_prweb/prweb272635_4
 
Mon Aug 15, 8:00 AM ET
 
(PRWEB) - Northampton, MA (PRWEB) August 15, 2005 -- Winning Writers is 
pleased to announce the results from its fourth annual Wergle Flomp Poetry Contest. 
Dr. Alan Farrell won first prize and $1,190 for his spoof poem, "Blaming of 
Parts". 
 
1,398 entries were received from around the world. Jendi Reiter, judge of the 
contest, said "Dr. Farrell perfectly captures the expletive-laced patter of a 
drill sergeant who doesn't know whether to laugh or cry at the idiocy of both 
his distant commanders and his hapless recruits. Bizarrely interspersed with 
this narrative, we hear the languid, effete voice of the Poet describing 
pretty nipa palms."
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From marcus  Wed Aug 17 11:34:22 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:34:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <003101c5a2b0$f590ab90$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost>

> > Bob Grumman wrote:
> >> In prose, all lines end at the same EXPECTED place (except at the ends of
> >> paragraphs and, rarely, elsewhere).<
> >
Marcus Bales wrote:
> > This is simply not so. In prose the lines end at UNexpected places
> > because the line breaks are not decided by the writer but by the tyhpe-
> > setter or the computer program.

On 16 Aug 2005 at 18:22, Bob Grumman wrote:
> In printed prose, the lines end at the expected place, the right-hand 
> margin.

There's nothing "expected" about the right-hand margin with regard to 
the content of the matter. Because the right-hand margin is something 
like random with respect to the matter, which word in a given piece of 
prose will be at the margin must be UNexpected. 

Your assertion is like repeating Bentham's joke, saying that in printed 
poetry the lines end at the expected place, NOT the right hand margin. 
That has its problems, too: is an address a poem, then? A list of 
slogans? A list of names or events or dates? A vertical timeline? 

No, you've got to define "significant" satisfactorily, because it is 
precisely the significance of the flow breaks that you're referring to, and 
not the mere fact of their existence -- or else you have to admit that any 
line break at the end of a bit of prose is a flow break too. It's not enough 
to merely deploy the word "significant", though: you have to define it in 
context. What counts as significance in flow breaks? What doesn't? And 
it's not enough to say "everyone knows" because everyone doesn't. 
There is disagreement not only among reasonable people but among 
experts. That demands definition and explanation, or you're just making 
an assertion with neither evidence nor support.

Marcus










From uche  Thu Aug 18 12:01:06 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:01:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <000601c5a115$563387d0$99341c40@Emily>
References: <000601c5a115$563387d0$99341c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <1124380867.31001.304.camel@malatesta>

On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 14:15 -0700, Anthony Robinson wrote:
> Hey Bob, 
> 
> HaShoah is the holocaust.  I am horrified.

Yes.  I use the Hebrew name out of respect (always have).

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From uche  Thu Aug 18 12:04:15 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:04:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <43007AA5.14554.1688A08@localhost>
References: <980DD71F-4517-43D1-9022-F1A66261F07B@mac.com>
	<43007AA5.14554.1688A08@localhost>
Message-ID: <1124381056.31001.309.camel@malatesta>

On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 11:21 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote:
> On 13 Aug 2005 at 13:37, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> > Kent, I do *not* read that you have ever claimed the equivalence of Abu
> > Ghraib and Auschwitz, and those who claim such are not worth paying the
> > least attention to.<
> 
> That's too bad, since Kent said in response to questions about that that 
> he did indeed intend to say that Abu Ghraib had a sort of equivalence in 
> the institutional nature of the offenses. I agree with Kent and disagree 
> with you that there is no kind of equivalence. If I understand Kent 
> correctly he puts the equivalence in the institutionalization of such 
> things, and not in the actual acts. I think he's making an important point, 
> though I also disagree with some other aspects of his thought, as I've 
> elaborated earlier.

You're reading a lot into my words that is not there.  Abu Ghraib and
Auschwitz are not equivalent.  This does not mean that there is no
aspect in which they are similar.  You seem to think this is what it
means.  I think that's a strange reading.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From grahamd  Fri Aug 19 00:14:59 2005
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:14:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visiting Frost
Message-ID: <BF2AC6F3.13A17%grahamd@ripon.edu>

In my mailbox today is my contributor's copy of *Visting Frost:  Poems
Inspired by the Life and Work of Robert Frost*, the latest anthology from
Thom Tammaro & Sheila Coghill (U Iowa Press).  Their previous volumes were
*Visiting Walt* and *Visiting Emily*, but I guess the familiar "Robert"
wouldn't have been specific enough in this case. . . .

I haven't done more than flip through so far, but it's another gorgeously
produced volume, with a great image on the cover by Barry Moser.

Lots of familiar names in the table of contents, ranging from the
distinguished dead (Eberhart, Lowell, Schwartz, Francis, Brooks, Koch,
Nemerov, Gunn) to still-kicking folks like Bly, Wilbur, Berry, Pastan,
DeFrees, Kinnell, Carruth, Annie Finch, Pattiann Rogers, Gray Jacobik, et
al.

Some info on it from the Amazon page:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0877459630/qid=1124302861/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9284036-3655340?v=glance&s=books




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From david.bircumshaw  Thu Aug 18 14:47:21 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:47:21 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost>
Message-ID: <001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Victoria in Flowers


It might have been the run
of them, or the angle
of the sun, but I wanted
to kiss every line
of cascade

that melted from your breast.
Roses, peonies, chrysanths, how
they pealed from your tits
bonging 'love you, love you
true'. Ya daft bugger,


you beaut, ya soppy-head
who is as
stupid as me. But dressed
in flowers.


best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices


> > > Bob Grumman wrote:
> > >> In prose, all lines end at the same EXPECTED place (except at the
ends of
> > >> paragraphs and, rarely, elsewhere).<
> > >
> Marcus Bales wrote:
> > > This is simply not so. In prose the lines end at UNexpected places
> > > because the line breaks are not decided by the writer but by the
tyhpe-
> > > setter or the computer program.
>
> On 16 Aug 2005 at 18:22, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > In printed prose, the lines end at the expected place, the right-hand
> > margin.
>
> There's nothing "expected" about the right-hand margin with regard to
> the content of the matter. Because the right-hand margin is something
> like random with respect to the matter, which word in a given piece of
> prose will be at the margin must be UNexpected.
>
> Your assertion is like repeating Bentham's joke, saying that in printed
> poetry the lines end at the expected place, NOT the right hand margin.
> That has its problems, too: is an address a poem, then? A list of
> slogans? A list of names or events or dates? A vertical timeline?
>
> No, you've got to define "significant" satisfactorily, because it is
> precisely the significance of the flow breaks that you're referring to,
and
> not the mere fact of their existence -- or else you have to admit that any
> line break at the end of a bit of prose is a flow break too. It's not
enough
> to merely deploy the word "significant", though: you have to define it in
> context. What counts as significance in flow breaks? What doesn't? And
> it's not enough to say "everyone knows" because everyone doesn't.
> There is disagreement not only among reasonable people but among
> experts. That demands definition and explanation, or you're just making
> an assertion with neither evidence nor support.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From uche  Thu Aug 18 11:29:01 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:29:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Bullshit: invented by T.S. Eliot in 1910?"
Message-ID: <1124378941.31001.302.camel@malatesta>

http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-08-18/_The_Trium
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002404.html

Mark Liberman and I are trying to find the 1910 version of Eliot's poem.
Does anyone have any thoughts on where to look?  Anyone have access to a
copy they could scan and backchannel me?

Thanks.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From david.bircumshaw  Wed Aug 17 16:39:05 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:39:05 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> say, Spicer's
>
>                                            Aimlessly
> It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No
> One listens to poetry.
>
> Does that make any sense? (BTW the repeated 'aimless' here is an example
of
> the sort of rhetorical effect that Rosselli for her part denatures and
makes
> strange.)
>
> CW


Christopher

I'm glad you've quoted that snippet as it has always interested me. Now to
my subjective taste the repetition of aimless does work, and works very
well, where I do have a reservation is in No/One listens to poetry which
strikes me a slightly maudlin. But that is a matter of my taste, apropos of
Bob's interest in objective standards I cannot give a justification of my
reaction other than it is how I feel about the lines. They do make sense to
me, although I would be hard put to explain what that sense consists of.

Best

Dave





From david.bircumshaw  Wed Aug 17 19:41:57 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:41:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <4301BDD7.16976.818F8A@localhost>
	<004101c5a271$11774340$309f9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <000301c5a385$42ac8eb0$41ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Rob

I'm doubling this message up, i.e. I'm sending to you and the New Poetry
list, reason is I seem to have stopped receiving messages from New Poetry,
just as I was silently deleted from the Buffalo. If this is so, that is if
it's not just a glitch, I am appalled.

I'd like to think I'm paranoid about these matters but being kicked off one
poetry list after another seems to suggest that there are people out to get
me.

Best

Dave






From jeff.newberry  Wed Aug 17 14:41:08 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:41:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B58@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B58@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0508171141279faab9@mail.gmail.com>

William,
 I have to assume that you're not familiar with much of Jarman's work, for 
the quick way that you dismiss both him and his aesthetic. Jarman was 
writing "religious poetry" long before the current administration, and I 
suspect that he'll still be writing it after the Bush administration is but 
a memory. Have you read *The Black Riviera*? What about *Questions for 
Ecclesiastes*? Are you familiar with Jarman's essays? Have you perused *The 
Secret of Poetry* or *Body and Soul*? If you have, I wonder how you can take 
this poet to task the way that you do. Particularly, *The Black Riviera* is 
a book of haunting elegies, informed by religious (pariticularly Christian) 
experience. (I ask only because most people associate Jarman exclusively 
with *The Reaper* and are unaware of the poet's other writings.)
 I have to assume that much of your dismissal of what you see as "religious" 
poetry is motivated by your own dismissal of religion itself. Yes, there is 
a lot of quack, fundamentalist, anti-intellectual spirituality in the United 
States today (as there is around the world, as there always will be and 
always has been). However, to accuse a poet like Jarman of huckster 
Christianity isn't just unfair; it's ill-informed.
 Do you take Di Piero and Jarman to task because they don't write poems 
about the dangers of spirituality? Or are you dismissing them because in 
your view, they haven't written about the bloody history of Christianity (as 
is the case with most world religions, as well). Is that the case? I'm just 
trying to get my head around the bile that you have for these poets. I've 
met Mark a few times, and I don't find anything phoney or false about what 
he's doing with his religion. What do you make of poets like Andrew Hudgins, 
whose Christianity certainly informs his poetry but doesn't stand at 
Hudgins' central subject? I wonder if you easily dismiss Eric Pankey or 
Scott Cairns or even Annie Dillard? What do you think of Thomas Merton? Is 
he a huckster, as well?
 Walk into to any "Christian bookstore" and you'll likely find a lot of 
crap: sing-songey, feel-good religious poetry that ignores the facts of our 
lives. Whether or not we believe, we're grounded in the here and now; 
Jarman, Pankey, and Cairns know this truth and address it time and again in 
their poetry. Indeed, one of the central subjects in the poetry of Mark 
Jarman is the limitations of religious experience. 
 Again, I want to be very clear here. I'm not trying to start flame war nor 
am I trying to easily dismiss your claims. I am, however, trying to 
understand your position.
 Yours,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 8/16/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote: 
> 
> R.S. Thomas is a poet i particularly admire and read
> for pleasure, and also with the desire to learn from his marvelous
> skills and craft...
> As an ordained Anglican priest he served for forty years in
> rural parishes in Wales.... his poems are reiteratively if
> not exclusively concerned with the spiritual life.... i don't
> share his faith, but as i read him i grow more and more
> envious of the rich metaphorical contexts which Christianity
> provides for his poems. . . He can return, he does return,
> again and again to those (supposed) interactions and
> confrontations between human and deity, and somehow
> Thomas can bring these old ciphers back to life. . . unlike
> Yeats, Thomas was never fearful that his poetry might be "the
> garment of religion."
> 
> But doesn't the fact that Thomas was a priest validate and
> justify and authenicate the spiritual concerns of his
> poetry . . . I'm not asking that Jarman and Jane Hirshfield
> and Di Piero and other contemporary US poets whose
> careers benefit from the current political hegemony of
> conservative religious forces, put their sanctimony where
> their mouth is and take up the pulpit. . .
> 
> (i don't admire these latter, i think they're bad poets for
> the most part, Hirshfield is egregiously bad, but is it
> because i question
> their sincerity or their esthetic or both. . . )
> 
> Here's a stanza in English translation from a long poem called
> "Recycling" by the Polish master Rozewicz (from the eponymous
> book pubbed by Arc in 2001; trans. by Barbara Plebanek and Tony
> Howard):
> 
> Joaquin Navarro-Valls
> press spokesman
> for the Holy See
> would not confirm
> reports
> broadcast on the American
> T.V. network A & E
> that the Vatican secreted
> 200 million swiss francs
> principally gold coins
> looted by croatian
> fascists during the second
> world war
> croatian fascists who
> mass murdered
> Serbs Jews and Gypsies
> carried 350 million swiss francs
> out of Yugoslavia
> before the end of the war
> the British managed to intercept
> about 150 million swiss
> francs the rest
> reached the Vatican whence
> rumours suggested
> it was transferred
> to Spain and Argentina
> 
> ....end quote. As he says toward the end of this section of
> the poem, "zlote bylo milczenie swiata" :
> gold was the world's silence
> 
> (. . . gold can certainly buy the silence of most of us,
> but fortunately there always some like Rozewicz and Kent
> Johnson who won't bargain).....
> 
> .... but my question is whether the Rozewicz i quoted, is religious
> poetry? It's certainly about one important aspect of religion which
> normative religious poets like Jarman
> don't dwell on, except in speciously abstract mea culpas. . . .
> 
> Let me end by quoting one of my faves from Thomas:
> 
> TRAMP
> 
> A knock at the door
> And he stands there,
> A tramp with his can
> Asking for tea,
> Strong for a poor man
> On his way?where?
> 
> He looks at his feet,
> I look at the sky;
> Over us the planes build
> The shifting rafters
> Of the new world
> We have sworn by.
> 
> I sleep in my bed,
> He sleeps in the old,
> Dead leaves of a ditch.
> My dreams are haunted;
> Are his dreams rich?
> If I wake early,
> He wakes cold.
> 
> *
> 
> .... knotthead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman  Wed Aug 17 16:10:02 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:10:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <009901c5a367$a75ac570$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> <snip>
> I don't see this.  A sonnet is there or not, too.  If I call form the way
> the elements of a poem are arranged, and I do, then an acrostic is a form.
> I might add that a partial acrostic would exist if the word down the side
> (or wherever) has missing letters or is misspelled, etc.). [BG]
> <snip>
>
> Yes. I did myself no favours in the way I put it. Would it help to say
> instead that a device, element or whatever is a conceptual primitive? That
> it can't be broken down any further without becoming classifiable as some
> other conceptual primitive? So a *partial acrostic* is precisely that, a
> *true acrostic* is precisely that, and so on, whereas a sonnet comprises
> several different elements and remains a sonnet despite a fair degree of
> flexibility in how it may be constructed.

I hadn't looked at it that way.  I think I agree that a poetic device would 
be "primitive."  But I wouldn't call the acrostic form a poetic device but a 
form-establishing element.  That is, I break poetry into content and form, 
with poetic devices in the content class and things like the acrostic form 
in the form class.  Thanks to what you said, I now see that 
form-establishing elements can and perhaps ought to be primitive in the same 
way.  For an acrostic poem, you'd have an acrostic letter-placement pattern 
PLUS one or more form-establishers--say, line-quantity establisher; 
line-length pattern; metrical pattern, if any; rhyme pattern, if any.  So an 
acrostic would have more than one formal device but not as many as a sonnet.
To give the thrust of my ideas with little attempt at coherence.

> On the other matters you raise, I see poetic devices as having their 
> origins
> in features of language as it is used. So David G's reference to 
> ostranenie

Sorry, don't recall the reference nor know what "ostranenie" is.

> is certainly relevant: the experience of speech prosody, accidental 
> rhyming
> etc leads to corresponding devices; the experience of parsing a printed 
> page
> contributes to a greater interest in visual ordering, and so on. But
> Rosselli's device, to continue with that example, emerges more directly 
> out
> of things that happen anyway than, say, the blue text of your example. An
> illustration of what I mean might be the way in which Alan Sondheim uses 
> the
> effect of plain text editing (amongst other things) against itself. One of
> the experiences informing that approach is that of using mailers.

I'm not following this, I'm afraid.  In part or perhaps mainly because I 
can't see the Rosselli "device" as anything more than a possible repeneme 
and stylistic.  It may be like John M. Bennett's use in many poems of using 
what I called sub-demotic language.  Sort of grunts, pauses, etc., that seem 
to naturally emerge and strike me as meaningful.  But are "just" stylistic, 
tone-setting, arrestingly out-of-place in a poem, etc.

> As to audible pauses, visible gaps and flow-breaks, I'd want to 
> distinguish
> quite precisely between sound effects and visual effects before 
> considering
> how they interact. I'm thinking less of whatever quantitative distinction
> there might be between, say, a comma and a line break than of the
> qualitatively different effects of the punctuation and the line breaks in,
> say, Spicer's
>
>                                           Aimlessly
> It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No
> One listens to poetry.
>
> Does that make any sense? (BTW the repeated 'aimless' here is an example 
> of
> the sort of rhetorical effect that Rosselli for her part denatures and 
> makes
> strange.)
>
> CW

It makes lots of sense--but I think gets away from the fact that I['m trying 
for a taxonomy and thus can't, I don't think, consider qualitative 
differences (because to hard objectively to determine).  My flow-breaks can 
be seen on the page, and--I contend--exist in oral poetry (properly read); 
they show up explicitly when oral poetry is written down.

The spicer passage is a terrific example of effective lineation, I think. 
Its "aimlessly/aimless" device is "just" a repeneme, it seems to me (of the 
kind Vendler praises Shakespeare for using).  But it's a conceptual as well 
as an auditory repeneme, so richer than many repenemes.  As a conceptual 
repeneme, it would go, I think, under rhetorical devices, which both prose 
and poetry have.  I ignore them in investigating poetic devices since they 
seem to me literary devices rather than poetic devices.

I'm replying fast, so may seem like I don't know what I'm talking about here 
and there, but I think I do know--or will know!

--Bob G. 





From david.bircumshaw  Thu Aug 18 04:19:38 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:19:38 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test - please delete
Message-ID: <000a01c5a3cd$94103340$51ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

just checking - I seem to have a problem

Dave


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From kpaul  Fri Aug 19 02:14:26 2005
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 01:14:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test - please delete
In-Reply-To: <000a01c5a3cd$94103340$51ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
References: <000a01c5a3cd$94103340$51ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <20050819011404.M91622@kpaul.spinweb.net>

where are you going, Dave?

(sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

-kpaul

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, David Bircumshaw wrote:

> just checking - I seem to have a problem
>
> Dave
>
>
>



From robin.hamilton2  Thu Aug 18 04:46:55 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:46:55 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost>
Message-ID: <00d101c5a3d1$6532d650$f29c9951@Robin>

test

Robin




From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 03:30:42 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:30:42 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Bullshit: invented by T.S. Eliot in 1910?"
References: <1124378941.31001.302.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <012f01c5a48f$e8e50950$f29c9951@Robin>

> http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-08-18/_The_Trium
> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002404.html
>
> Mark Liberman and I are trying to find the 1910 version of Eliot's poem.
> Does anyone have any thoughts on where to look?  Anyone have access to a
> copy they could scan and backchannel me?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- 
> Uche Ogbuji

It's printed in T.S.Eliot, +Inventions of the March Hare+ ed. Christopher
Ricks (1996), p. 307.

(If you have trouble getting hold of this Uche, backchannel me and I'll scan
the appropriate pages for you.)

Robin





From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 04:15:22 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:15:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Bullshit: invented by T.S. Eliot in 1910?"
References: <1124378941.31001.302.camel@malatesta>
Message-ID: <001601c5a496$26d21900$f29c9951@Robin>

It looks as if there's a good case for Eliot being the first to use the word
in "The Triumph of Bullshit" in 1910.  The OED2[3] has as its first cite
Wyndham Lewis c1915 referring to it:

    c1915 Wyndham Lewis Let. (1963) 66 Eliot has sent me Bullshit and the
Ballad for Big Louise. They are excellent bits of scholarly ribaldry.

(Wyndham Lewis was writing to Ezra Pound, and goes on: "I am longing to
print them in +Blast+, but stick to my naif determination to have no 'Words
Ending in -Uck, -Unt and Ugger.' ")

Here's the entry in Beale/Partridge8:

bullshit (earlier bull-shit), n. Nonsense; empty talk; hum?bug(ging): mostly
Aus., C.20; ?ex US. Often abbr. bullsh or bulsh (mostly Aus. and NZ) and
bull: RN: C.20 (Bowen); and, perhaps a little later, the other Services
also.-2. Hence (also in forms bulsh and esp. bull), 'excessive spit and
polish' or attention to detail; regimentalism: Services': since ca. 1916.
Hence bullshit morning, that morning on which the CO's inspection takes
place: Services': since ca. 1920. Cf. bull-night, its necessary prelude.

bullshit, v.t. and i. To deceive a person, or to 'pull his leg'. 'Are you
bullshitting me ?' could be the indignant enquiry of the victim: esp.
Forces': since ca. 1925. --2. To prepare, in the Services, for an inspection
of one's person or quarters: since WW2. Often as bullshit up: e.g., 'We've
got to get this place bullshitted up-the CO's round tomorrow morning'; occ.
joc. bullshat, 'Don't touch that, it's just been bullshat!' (P.B.)

Robin







From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 04:30:26 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:30:26 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost>
	<001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <002901c5a498$40e6d0e0$f29c9951@Robin>

I like this much less than the two previous poems -- Muse and the Yad
poem -- that you sent, dave.

It's the language, mate.  A little too romantic/cliche at first, and I don't
find the register-jump at the end as successful as in the Muse poem.

(Don't tell Victoria I said that.)

And in "Ya daft bugger, / you beaut, ya soppy-head", why 'you', not 'ya' in
the second instance?

Robin

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
To: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>; "James Finnegan"
<JforJames at aol.com>; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 7:47 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers


> Victoria in Flowers
>
>
> It might have been the run
> of them, or the angle
> of the sun, but I wanted
> to kiss every line
> of cascade
>
> that melted from your breast.
> Roses, peonies, chrysanths, how
> they pealed from your tits
> bonging 'love you, love you
> true'. Ya daft bugger,
>
>
> you beaut, ya soppy-head
> who is as
> stupid as me. But dressed
> in flowers.
>
>
> best
>
> Dave





From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 04:57:20 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:57:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Bullshit: invented by T.S. Eliot in 1910?"
References: <1124378941.31001.302.camel@malatesta>
	<012f01c5a48f$e8e50950$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <003c01c5a49c$03299f40$f29c9951@Robin>

> > Mark Liberman and I are trying to find the 1910 version of Eliot's poem.
...
> It's printed in T.S.Eliot, +Inventions of the March Hare+ ed. Christopher
> Ricks (1996), p. 307.

Correction and addendum:  The text on p. 307 is the 1916 revision.  But if
you turn the page, Ricks gives the earlier readings in a series of notes, so
you can reverse-engineer the 1910 text.

(All of which Uche probably already knows.)

Teach me to fire from the hip -- Mark Liberman's comments in Language Log
that Uche points to in the URL in his original query put my pathetic little
post to shame.  (I should have read it before bombing bullheadedly ahead.)
I can recommend both that and Uche's own comments in Copia.

Apologies all round -- I ought to be bulldozed.

Robin





From david.bircumshaw  Fri Aug 19 05:10:48 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:10:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost><001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<002901c5a498$40e6d0e0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <005a01c5a49d$e45f9fe0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

I agree with you Rob. Your point about the register-jump at the end applies
in plural to the whole poem, they don't quite come off, like the playing
around with 'ya' and 'you'.

I think it was the risking romantic/cliche pulls the poem down. Oh well.

(victoria likes the poem of course and, no, I won't tell her what you said,
but, after all, she was the one wearing flowers. Bug-eyed here - her and
Jeanette kept me up till half-six this morning)

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers


> I like this much less than the two previous poems -- Muse and the Yad
> poem -- that you sent, dave.
>
> It's the language, mate.  A little too romantic/cliche at first, and I
don't
> find the register-jump at the end as successful as in the Muse poem.
>
> (Don't tell Victoria I said that.)
>
> And in "Ya daft bugger, / you beaut, ya soppy-head", why 'you', not 'ya'
in
> the second instance?
>
> Robin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
> To: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>; "James Finnegan"
> <JforJames at aol.com>; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 7:47 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
>
>
> > Victoria in Flowers
> >
> >
> > It might have been the run
> > of them, or the angle
> > of the sun, but I wanted
> > to kiss every line
> > of cascade
> >
> > that melted from your breast.
> > Roses, peonies, chrysanths, how
> > they pealed from your tits
> > bonging 'love you, love you
> > true'. Ya daft bugger,
> >
> >
> > you beaut, ya soppy-head
> > who is as
> > stupid as me. But dressed
> > in flowers.
> >
> >
> > best
> >
> > Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 05:21:01 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:21:01 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost><001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002901c5a498$40e6d0e0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<005a01c5a49d$e45f9fe0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <004e01c5a49f$52085400$f29c9951@Robin>

dave:

> I think it was the risking romantic/cliche pulls the poem down. Oh well.

Not so much the risk itself as that here (for me) it doesn't come off.

> (victoria likes the poem of course

She would -- almost everyone likes poems written about themselves.  (Though
I can think of a stunning exception that I wouldn't post to this list.)

> and, no, I won't tell her what you said,

Right.  I'd hate to lose the family jewels when I finally meet Vikki.

> but, after all, she was the one wearing flowers. Bug-eyed here - her and
> Jeanette kept me up till half-six this morning)

Candles were made to be burned at one end, not two.

Off to make himself some breakfast toast, and brood on Jimmy Crichton.  If
I'm lucky, a copy of The Jewel might arrive through the post today.

Constant Reader





From david.bircumshaw  Fri Aug 19 05:49:57 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:49:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost><001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002901c5a498$40e6d0e0$f29c9951@Robin><005a01c5a49d$e45f9fe0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<004e01c5a49f$52085400$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <007c01c5a4a3$6eca3fa0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

> dave:
>
> > I think it was the risking romantic/cliche pulls the poem down. Oh well.
>
> Not so much the risk itself as that here (for me) it doesn't come off.
>


Either way. I didn't put enough 'body' into the poem, that is to say there
isn't enough to run against, if ya know wot I mean.

> Right.  I'd hate to lose the family jewels when I finally meet Vikki.

You're quite safe there, Rob, she thinks you're a 'very nice man' - her own
words.

Some women will believe anything won't they? Tip, though, NEVER call her
Vikki - she hates it - always Vic-TOR-IA or Vics.

Grin.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers


> dave:
>
> > I think it was the risking romantic/cliche pulls the poem down. Oh well.
>
> Not so much the risk itself as that here (for me) it doesn't come off.
>
> > (victoria likes the poem of course
>
> She would -- almost everyone likes poems written about themselves.
(Though
> I can think of a stunning exception that I wouldn't post to this list.)
>
> > and, no, I won't tell her what you said,
>
> Right.  I'd hate to lose the family jewels when I finally meet Vikki.
>
> > but, after all, she was the one wearing flowers. Bug-eyed here - her and
> > Jeanette kept me up till half-six this morning)
>
> Candles were made to be burned at one end, not two.
>
> Off to make himself some breakfast toast, and brood on Jimmy Crichton.  If
> I'm lucky, a copy of The Jewel might arrive through the post today.
>
> Constant Reader
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 06:02:49 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:02:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost><001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002901c5a498$40e6d0e0$f29c9951@Robin><005a01c5a49d$e45f9fe0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><004e01c5a49f$52085400$f29c9951@Robin>
	<007c01c5a4a3$6eca3fa0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <007c01c5a4a5$2867af50$f29c9951@Robin>

dave:

> > > I think it was the risking romantic/cliche pulls the poem down. Oh
well.
> >
> > Not so much the risk itself as that here (for me) it doesn't come off.
> >
>
>
> Either way. I didn't put enough 'body' into the poem, that is to say there
> isn't enough to run against, if ya know wot I mean.

This still leaves the problem that the body/base line is "romantic", whether
straight, clich?, or sent up, and that's difficult enough to pull off at the
best of times in this day and age.  (I keep on coming up against the problem
of how you signal to a reader that a clich? is *meant* to be a clich?.)

So you *already* have a problem, *before* you play another register(s)
against your base.

Recast with a more defined speaker?  A Brummie illiterate, perhaps?  As it
stands, there really isn't anything *in* the poem to define the speaker.

EndThots

Robin





From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 06:08:47 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:08:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost><001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002901c5a498$40e6d0e0$f29c9951@Robin><005a01c5a49d$e45f9fe0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><004e01c5a49f$52085400$f29c9951@Robin>
	<007c01c5a4a3$6eca3fa0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <008001c5a4a5$fe604bd0$f29c9951@Robin>

dave:

> > > I think it was the risking romantic/cliche pulls the poem down. Oh
well.
> >
> > Not so much the risk itself as that here (for me) it doesn't come off.

There's also the problem that I know you and I know about Victoria, so I'm
bringing stuff into my reading from outside the poem.

I'm probably about the *least* useful person to comment on this poem -- what
you need is someone on the list who can respond to and comment on "Victoria
in Flowers" without dragging along all that baggage.

Cheers,

Robin





From david.bircumshaw  Fri Aug 19 06:51:55 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:51:55 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
References: <430320BE.6776.5A986@localhost><001c01c5a425$455327f0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><002901c5a498$40e6d0e0$f29c9951@Robin><005a01c5a49d$e45f9fe0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><004e01c5a49f$52085400$f29c9951@Robin><007c01c5a4a3$6eca3fa0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<008001c5a4a5$fe604bd0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <008d01c5a4ac$084caca0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Well if you want to know about problems, Rob, let me tell you this:
Jeanette, Victoria's auntie, last night/ this morning abducted Arnold (my
teddy bear) - she has promised to return him in a month's time but I am of
course in a state of great distress. How's that for soap-opera (I've even
got to go for a drink with them shortly before Jeanette goes back to
Nottingham - Arnold in hand - oh poor me)

As for the poem, it needs to be recast and expanded in semi-prose poem
format - I can see that - will get there.

Cheers

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers


> dave:
>
> > > > I think it was the risking romantic/cliche pulls the poem down. Oh
> well.
> > >
> > > Not so much the risk itself as that here (for me) it doesn't come off.
>
> There's also the problem that I know you and I know about Victoria, so I'm
> bringing stuff into my reading from outside the poem.
>
> I'm probably about the *least* useful person to comment on this poem --
what
> you need is someone on the list who can respond to and comment on
"Victoria
> in Flowers" without dragging along all that baggage.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bardo  Fri Aug 19 07:58:37 2005
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:58:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com>
	<008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <001f01c5a4b5$5574c900$3a95c044@MULDER>

No: one LISTENS to poetry . . .

I've always heard it that way, as well:
contrapuntally--a repetition 'denaturing,'
as you say, the (repeated) aimlessness of the ocean's
'signals' (as if in answer to a reader's
speculative, resistant conversion of
"White and aimless signals"
to a question).

~ Dan



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices


>> say, Spicer's
>>
>>                                            Aimlessly
>> It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No
>> One listens to poetry.
>>
>> Does that make any sense? (BTW the repeated 'aimless' here is an example
> of
>> the sort of rhetorical effect that Rosselli for her part denatures and
> makes
>> strange.)
>>
>> CW
>
>
> Christopher
>
> I'm glad you've quoted that snippet as it has always interested me. Now to
> my subjective taste the repetition of aimless does work, and works very
> well, where I do have a reservation is in No/One listens to poetry which
> strikes me a slightly maudlin. But that is a matter of my taste, apropos 
> of
> Bob's interest in objective standards I cannot give a justification of my
> reaction other than it is how I feel about the lines. They do make sense 
> to
> me, although I would be hard put to explain what that sense consists of.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From marcus  Fri Aug 19 09:54:14 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:54:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
In-Reply-To: <009901c5a367$a75ac570$58b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4305AC46.26516.9ECE8A@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2005 at 16:10, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Sorry, don't recall the reference nor know what "ostranenie" is.

You expect everyone to know all about YOUR obscure and crackpot 
theories, but you don't know this? Not only that, you don't look it up? 
This whole pose of yours, of being the mute inglorious Milton crying in 
the wilderness, or some messiah whose truths will be made clear by 
faith, or something, is tiresome. You clearly do not understand the 
nature of a taxonomy, or the reason to have one, or how to use one if it 
exists -- and yet you are trying to propose one, and it's predictably and 
profoundly flawed by the lack of information you bring to it.

On 17 Aug 2005 at 16:10, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I'm replying fast, so may seem like I don't know what I'm talking about here 
> and there, but I think I do know--or will know!

Nonsense -- you don't know, and all your blather just demonstrates more 
clearly that you don't know. You've got hold of the wrong end of the 
stick; you're like those people who, confusing momentum with velocity, 
claim that Einstein was wrong, and don't have enough math to 
understand their own mistakes.  You so clearly don't understand what a 
taxonomy is for, or why to make one, or how to use one, that the notion 
of you providing one is ludicrous. Work on your poems. Your attempts at 
theory are transparently bogus.

Marcus






From marcus  Fri Aug 19 09:54:14 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:54:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <1124381056.31001.309.camel@malatesta>
References: <43007AA5.14554.1688A08@localhost>
Message-ID: <4305AC46.29355.9ECC96@localhost>

> > On 13 Aug 2005 at 13:37, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> > > Kent, I do *not* read that you have ever claimed the equivalence of Abu
> > > Ghraib and Auschwitz, and those who claim such are not worth paying the
> > > least attention to.<
> > 
> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 11:21 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote:
> > That's too bad, since Kent said in response to questions about that that 
> > he did indeed intend to say that Abu Ghraib had a sort of equivalence in 
> > the institutional nature of the offenses. I agree with Kent and disagree 
> > with you that there is no kind of equivalence. If I understand Kent 
> > correctly he puts the equivalence in the institutionalization of such 
> > things, and not in the actual acts. I think he's making an important point, 
> > though I also disagree with some other aspects of his thought, as I've 
> > elaborated earlier.

On 18 Aug 2005 at 10:04, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> You're reading a lot into my words that is not there.  Abu Ghraib and
> Auschwitz are not equivalent.  This does not mean that there is no
> aspect in which they are similar.  You seem to think this is what it
> means.  I think that's a strange reading.

Kent did not say they are equivalent; neither did I. He said, and I 
agreed, that there is a sort of institutional equivalence, and not that the 
events are equivalent. You seem determined to believe that there are no 
nuances possible on this issue. You're entitled to your opinion, of 
course, however wrong it may be.

Marcus






From uche  Fri Aug 19 11:27:19 2005
From: uche (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:27:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
In-Reply-To: <4305AC46.29355.9ECC96@localhost>
References: <43007AA5.14554.1688A08@localhost>
	<4305AC46.29355.9ECC96@localhost>
Message-ID: <1124465239.31001.332.camel@malatesta>

On Fri, 2005-08-19 at 09:54 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote:
> > > On 13 Aug 2005 at 13:37, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> > > > Kent, I do *not* read that you have ever claimed the equivalence of Abu
> > > > Ghraib and Auschwitz, and those who claim such are not worth paying the
> > > > least attention to.<
> > > 
> > On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 11:21 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote:
> > > That's too bad, since Kent said in response to questions about that that 
> > > he did indeed intend to say that Abu Ghraib had a sort of equivalence in 
> > > the institutional nature of the offenses. I agree with Kent and disagree 
> > > with you that there is no kind of equivalence. If I understand Kent 
> > > correctly he puts the equivalence in the institutionalization of such 
> > > things, and not in the actual acts. I think he's making an important point, 
> > > though I also disagree with some other aspects of his thought, as I've 
> > > elaborated earlier.
> 
> On 18 Aug 2005 at 10:04, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
> > You're reading a lot into my words that is not there.  Abu Ghraib and
> > Auschwitz are not equivalent.  This does not mean that there is no
> > aspect in which they are similar.  You seem to think this is what it
> > means.  I think that's a strange reading.
> 
> Kent did not say they are equivalent; neither did I. He said, and I 
> agreed, that there is a sort of institutional equivalence, and not that the 
> events are equivalent. You seem determined to believe that there are no 
> nuances possible on this issue. You're entitled to your opinion, of 
> course, however wrong it may be.

I think you're very confused, Marcus.  I'm not even sure you're clear on
whom you're responding to.  I won't tell you to re-read the thread, but
I will say that I think you completely misunderstood something you saw
in the thread.  Either you thought I said something that I didn't, or
you badly misunderstood something that I did say.

Bottom line: you, Kent and I *agree*.  Yes.  We're *in agreement*.  This
whole thing started when I jumped to Kent's defence *precisely* because
I though the nuance was getting lost in the heated discussion.  I'm not
sure how you're so unclear about that, but I'm done trying to spell it
out on the chalkboard.

Shalom.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
uche at ogbuji.net  http://uche.ogbuji.net   http://copia.ogbuji.net
Work: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com   http://Fourthought.com





From marcus  Fri Aug 19 12:04:12 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:04:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Bullshit: invented by T.S. Eliot in 1910?"
In-Reply-To: <012f01c5a48f$e8e50950$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <4305CABC.25665.115C976@localhost>

hey, scan them and send them to me, too!
Marcus


On 19 Aug 2005 at 8:30, Robin Hamilton wrote:

> > http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-08-18/_The_Trium
> > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002404.html
> >
> > Mark Liberman and I are trying to find the 1910 version of Eliot's poem.
> > Does anyone have any thoughts on where to look?  Anyone have access to a
> > copy they could scan and backchannel me?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -- 
> > Uche Ogbuji
> 
> It's printed in T.S.Eliot, +Inventions of the March Hare+ ed. Christopher
> Ricks (1996), p. 307.
> 
> (If you have trouble getting hold of this Uche, backchannel me and I'll scan
> the appropriate pages for you.)
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From bobgrumman  Fri Aug 19 16:02:32 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:02:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Question on Contemporary Poetic Devices
Message-ID: <006201c5a4f8$f0183490$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

This may be a repeat, but I think it bounced while New-Poetry was down.


> <snip>
> I don't see this.  A sonnet is there or not, too.  If I call form the way
> the elements of a poem are arranged, and I do, then an acrostic is a form.
> I might add that a partial acrostic would exist if the word down the side
> (or wherever) has missing letters or is misspelled, etc.). [BG]
> <snip>
>
> Yes. I did myself no favours in the way I put it. Would it help to say
> instead that a device, element or whatever is a conceptual primitive? That
> it can't be broken down any further without becoming classifiable as some
> other conceptual primitive? So a *partial acrostic* is precisely that, a
> *true acrostic* is precisely that, and so on, whereas a sonnet comprises
> several different elements and remains a sonnet despite a fair degree of
> flexibility in how it may be constructed.

I hadn't looked at it that way.  I think I agree that a poetic device would 
be "primitive."  But I wouldn't call the acrostic form a poetic device but a 
form-establishing element.  That is, I break poetry into content and form, 
with poetic devices in the content class and things like the acrostic form 
in the form class.  Thanks to what you said, I now see that 
form-establishing elements can and perhaps ought to be primitive in the same 
way.  For an acrostic poem, you'd have an acrostic letter-placement pattern 
PLUS one or more form-establishers--say, line-quantity establisher; 
line-length pattern; metrical pattern, if any; rhyme pattern, if any.  So an 
acrostic would have more than one formal device but not as many as a sonnet.
To give the thrust of my ideas with little attempt at coherence.

> On the other matters you raise, I see poetic devices as having their 
> origins
> in features of language as it is used. So David G's reference to 
> ostranenie

Sorry, don't recall the reference nor know what "ostranenie" is.

> is certainly relevant: the experience of speech prosody, accidental 
> rhyming
> etc leads to corresponding devices; the experience of parsing a printed 
> page
> contributes to a greater interest in visual ordering, and so on. But
> Rosselli's device, to continue with that example, emerges more directly 
> out
> of things that happen anyway than, say, the blue text of your example. An
> illustration of what I mean might be the way in which Alan Sondheim uses 
> the
> effect of plain text editing (amongst other things) against itself. One of
> the experiences informing that approach is that of using mailers.

I'm not following this, I'm afraid.  In part or perhaps mainly because I 
can't see the Rosselli "device" as anything more than a possible repeneme 
and stylistic.  It may be like John M. Bennett's use in many poems of using 
what I called sub-demotic language.  Sort of grunts, pauses, etc., that seem 
to naturally emerge and strike me as meaningful.  But are "just" stylistic, 
tone-setting, arrestingly out-of-place in a poem, etc.

> As to audible pauses, visible gaps and flow-breaks, I'd want to 
> distinguish
> quite precisely between sound effects and visual effects before 
> considering
> how they interact. I'm thinking less of whatever quantitative distinction
> there might be between, say, a comma and a line break than of the
> qualitatively different effects of the punctuation and the line breaks in,
> say, Spicer's
>
>                                           Aimlessly
> It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No
> One listens to poetry.
>
> Does that make any sense? (BTW the repeated 'aimless' here is an example 
> of
> the sort of rhetorical effect that Rosselli for her part denatures and 
> makes
> strange.)
>
> CW

It makes lots of sense--but I think gets away from the fact that I['m trying 
for a taxonomy and thus can't, I don't think, consider qualitative 
differences (because to hard objectively to determine).  My flow-breaks can 
be seen on the page, and--I contend--exist in oral poetry (properly read); 
they show up explicitly when oral poetry is written down.

The spicer passage is a terrific example of effective lineation, I think. 
Its "aimlessly/aimless" device is "just" a repeneme, it seems to me (of the 
kind Vendler praises Shakespeare for using).  But it's a conceptual as well 
as an auditory repeneme, so richer than many repenemes.  As a conceptual 
repeneme, it would go, I think, under rhetorical devices, which both prose 
and poetry have.  I ignore them in investigating poetic devices since they 
seem to me literary devices rather than poetic devices.

I'm replying fast, so may seem like I don't know what  I'm talking about here  and there, but I think I do know--or will know!

--Bob G. 
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From elemenope  Fri Aug 19 16:40:10 2005
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:40:10 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birc's Song, "Victoria in Flowers"
In-Reply-To: <200508191600.j7JG05iT005022@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200508191600.j7JG05iT005022@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100302bf2bf2ced685@[204.215.201.221]>

Can't argue with talent.  Talent speaks from within itself.  Although 
it may wander away and make me wonder why, talent like this is its 
own true purpose, like break dancing.

R.D.



>
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:47:21 +0100
>From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
>ext/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Victoria in Flowers
>
>
>It might have been the run
>of them, or the angle
>of the sun, but I wanted
>to kiss every line
>of cascade
>
>that melted from your breast.
>Roses, peonies, chrysanths, how
>they pealed from your tits
>bonging 'love you, love you
>true'. Ya daft bugger,
>
>
>you beaut, ya soppy-head
>who is as
>stupid as me. But dressed
>in flowers.
>
>
>best
>
>Dave
>

-- 



From elemenope  Fri Aug 19 17:53:21 2005
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 05:53:21 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry (Uche Ogbuji)
Message-ID: <a05100305bf2c0004f0ff@[204.215.201.226]>

>At 05:05 AM +0800 8/20/05, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>>On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 11:21 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote:
>>>  On 13 Aug 2005 at 13:37, Uche Ogbuji wrote:
>>>  > Kent, I do *not* read that you have ever claimed the equivalence of Abu
>>>  > Ghraib and Auschwitz, and those who claim such are not worth paying the
>>>  > least attention to.<
>>  >
>>>  That's too bad, since Kent said in response to questions about that that
>>>  he did indeed intend to say that Abu Ghraib had a sort of equivalence in
>>>  the institutional nature of the offenses. I agree with Kent and disagree
>>>  with you that there is no kind of equivalence. If I understand Kent
>>>  correctly he puts the equivalence in the institutionalization of such
>>>  things, and not in the actual acts. I think he's making an important point,
>>>  though I also disagree with some other aspects of his thought, as I've
>>>  elaborated earlier.
>>
>>You're reading a lot into my words that is not there.  Abu Ghraib and
>>Auschwitz are not equivalent.  This does not mean that there is no
>>aspect in which they are similar.  You seem to think this is what it
>>means.  I think that's a strange reading.


A picture is worth a thousand words.  A propaganda book cover DOES 
give judgement of the text inside.

Poet Ogbuji first says one thing, then avers and thinks another, it 
seems  What kind of equation is that?  So what, if it quacks like a 
duck, has the feathers of a duck, has the webbed feet of a duck, the 
white feathers of a duck, and the dull orange eyes of a duck, it's a 
DUCK!  This "Kent Johnson" is saying by means of his cover what he 
"seems" to be saying, regardless of what he would whisper in a 
potential sycophant's ear that his cover "really" means. 
"Institutional"?  Piffle.  Doublespeak piffle.

This "Kent Johnson" would have shoppers evaluating graphic 
advertisements for his book, _Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz_, assume a 
co-present relationship and equation due to the montage/conflation of 
the Lyndy England police dog photo at Abu G with the genocide murder 
facility, Auschwitz, where the Shoah was prosecuted with Satanic 
mercilessness by the IslamoFascist ally, Adolf Hitler.

NO ONE WAS KILLED AT ABU G UNDER MILITARY POLICE PSYCH-OP HAZING IN 2002.

MILLIONS WERE COLD BLOODEDLY LIQUIDATED BY ASSEMBLY LINE ANTI JEWISH 
GENOCIDAL MURDER AT AUSCHWITZ IN 1942.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ANIMIST PEOPLE IN SUDAN ARE BEING 
GENOCIDALLY HUNTED AND GUNNED DOWN BY JIHADIST HELICOPERS AND CAVALRY 
IN THE ISLAMO-FASCIST WAR AGAINST ALL INFIDELS (WHICH TARGETS 
EVERYONE ON THIS LIST).  UNITED STATES MILITARY PERSONNEL, PATRIOT 
VOLUNTEERS ALL, ARE ASSEMBLING TO PROTECT THESE ANIMIST PEOPLES AT 
THIS HOUR AS PART OF THE WAR AGAINST ISLAMOFASCIST TERROR AND 
GENOCIDE.

Equivocation about this fact leads to intellectual delusion.  Abu G 
does NOT EQUAL Auschwitz, of course.  But, this poet, "Kent Johnson," 
seeks by means of his book's cover to draw the innocent or the 
co-traveller mind to speculate that it might.  "KENT JOHNSON" IMPLIES 
IT!  And to condemn America by implication at the same moment, 
coincidentally, that the RadLibs have launched the Cindy Sheehan mass 
media attack on the President in Crawford, Texas.  If this "Kent 
Johnson" can connect Lyndy England to Adolf Hitler, he, himwself, can 
be connected to Cindy Sheehan, a longterm member of the radical Left, 
not merely a "grieving mother," whose son, incidentally, rejected her 
and her politics in his defense of America.  She lies in public about 
his mission and heroism just as this "Kent Johnson" lies.  It's the 
same propaganda.  It's the same nonsense.

Repeat a lie a million times, said the Marxist tyrant, Stalin, and 
that lie becomes the "truth."  Someone has to be willing to confront 
legerdemain.  You are reading such a confrontation.

Hey, "Kent Johnson," -- Want a lyric poem regarding Iraq?  Here's one:


>At 12:39 PM +0800 1/31/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>
Laura Bush receives the RadLib poets at the White House:


I Stand With The First Lady
I Stand with The Statue of Liberty



A crowd of poets waving their poems

Is merely a crowd waving its fists -

And not one swung at Saddam,

Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade,

Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating

Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun.

==========================================================================


R i c h a r d   D i l l o n

ELEMENOPE Productions (publisher of Charles Bernstein's, "Live At The 
Ear," the first audio anthology of LANGUAGE Poetry from the Ear Inn, 
New York City.)





-- 
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From William_Knott  Fri Aug 19 18:17:35 2005
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:17:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B5A@mail.emerson.edu>

dear Jeff Newberry: what's your point??that  if i like one 
xtian poet (RS Thomas) i'm dutybound to like em all?...   
i've read enough Jarman to know I don't like his poetry...  
but so what?  my disapprobation is worth nothing, i have 
no power to elevate or downcast anyone's reputation....  
this thread started with Sadoff's piece in APR: he's the 
one you need to convince, since he's the one with the 
clout to get his message out in an influential journal 
like APR....  nobody who counts is going to take my
crap seriously, and anyway many of my comments were
in the form of questions, not statements. . .

.... knotthead



Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:41:08 -0400
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0508171141279faab9 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

William,
 I have to assume that you're not familiar with much of Jarman's work, for 
the quick way that you dismiss both him and his aesthetic. Jarman was 
writing "religious poetry" long before the current administration, and I 
suspect that he'll still be writing it after the Bush administration is but 
a memory. Have you read *The Black Riviera*? What about *Questions for 
Ecclesiastes*? Are you familiar with Jarman's essays? Have you perused *The 
Secret of Poetry* or *Body and Soul*? If you have, I wonder how you can take 
this poet to task the way that you do. Particularly, *The Black Riviera* is 
a book of haunting elegies, informed by religious (pariticularly Christian) 
experience. (I ask only because most people associate Jarman exclusively 
with *The Reaper* and are unaware of the poet's other writings.)
 I have to assume that much of your dismissal of what you see as "religious" 
poetry is motivated by your own dismissal of religion itself. Yes, there is 
a lot of quack, fundamentalist, anti-intellectual spirituality in the United 
States today (as there is around the world, as there always will be and 
always has been). However, to accuse a poet like Jarman of huckster 
Christianity isn't just unfair; it's ill-informed.
 Do you take Di Piero and Jarman to task because they don't write poems 
about the dangers of spirituality? Or are you dismissing them because in 
your view, they haven't written about the bloody history of Christianity (as 
is the case with most world religions, as well). Is that the case? I'm just 
trying to get my head around the bile that you have for these poets. I've 
met Mark a few times, and I don't find anything phoney or false about what 
he's doing with his religion. What do you make of poets like Andrew Hudgins, 
whose Christianity certainly informs his poetry but doesn't stand at 
Hudgins' central subject? I wonder if you easily dismiss Eric Pankey or 
Scott Cairns or even Annie Dillard? What do you think of Thomas Merton? Is 
he a huckster, as well?
 Walk into to any "Christian bookstore" and you'll likely find a lot of 
crap: sing-songey, feel-good religious poetry that ignores the facts of our 
lives. Whether or not we believe, we're grounded in the here and now; 
Jarman, Pankey, and Cairns know this truth and address it time and again in 
their poetry. Indeed, one of the central subjects in the poetry of Mark 
Jarman is the limitations of religious experience. 
 Again, I want to be very clear here. I'm not trying to start flame war nor 
am I trying to easily dismiss your claims. I am, however, trying to 
understand your position.
 Yours,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 8/16/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote: 
> 
> R.S. Thomas is a poet i particularly admire and read
> for pleasure, and also with the desire to learn from his marvelous
> skills and craft...
> As an ordained Anglican priest he served for forty years in
> rural parishes in Wales.... his poems are reiteratively if
> not exclusively concerned with the spiritual life.... i don't
> share his faith, but as i read him i grow more and more
> envious of the rich metaphorical contexts which Christianity
> provides for his poems. . . He can return, he does return,
> again and again to those (supposed) interactions and
> confrontations between human and deity, and somehow
> Thomas can bring these old ciphers back to life. . . unlike
> Yeats, Thomas was never fearful that his poetry might be "the
> garment of religion."
> 
> But doesn't the fact that Thomas was a priest validate and
> justify and authenicate the spiritual concerns of his
> poetry . . . I'm not asking that Jarman and Jane Hirshfield
> and Di Piero and other contemporary US poets whose
> careers benefit from the current political hegemony of
> conservative religious forces, put their sanctimony where
> their mouth is and take up the pulpit. . .
> 
> (i don't admire these latter, i think they're bad poets for
> the most part, Hirshfield is egregiously bad, but is it
> because i question
> their sincerity or their esthetic or both. . . )
> 
> Here's a stanza in English translation from a long poem called
> "Recycling" by the Polish master Rozewicz (from the eponymous
> book pubbed by Arc in 2001; trans. by Barbara Plebanek and Tony
> Howard):
> 
> Joaquin Navarro-Valls
> press spokesman
> for the Holy See
> would not confirm
> reports
> broadcast on the American
> T.V. network A & E
> that the Vatican secreted
> 200 million swiss francs
> principally gold coins
> looted by croatian
> fascists during the second
> world war
> croatian fascists who
> mass murdered
> Serbs Jews and Gypsies
> carried 350 million swiss francs
> out of Yugoslavia
> before the end of the war
> the British managed to intercept
> about 150 million swiss
> francs the rest
> reached the Vatican whence
> rumours suggested
> it was transferred
> to Spain and Argentina
> 
> ....end quote. As he says toward the end of this section of
> the poem, "zlote bylo milczenie swiata" :
> gold was the world's silence
> 
> (. . . gold can certainly buy the silence of most of us,
> but fortunately there always some like Rozewicz and Kent
> Johnson who won't bargain).....
> 
> .... but my question is whether the Rozewicz i quoted, is religious
> poetry? It's certainly about one important aspect of religion which
> normative religious poets like Jarman
> don't dwell on, except in speciously abstract mea culpas. . . .
> 
> Let me end by quoting one of my faves from Thomas:
> 
> TRAMP
> 
> A knock at the door
> And he stands there,
> A tramp with his can
> Asking for tea,
> Strong for a poor man
> On his way?where?
> 
> He looks at his feet,
> I look at the sky;
> Over us the planes build
> The shifting rafters
> Of the new world
> We have sworn by.
> 
> I sleep in my bed,
> He sleeps in the old,
> Dead leaves of a ditch.
> My dreams are haunted;
> Are his dreams rich?
> If I wake early,
> He wakes cold.
> 
> *
> 
> .... knotthead
> 
> 

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From bobgrumman  Fri Aug 19 18:29:03 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:29:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <4305AC46.26516.9ECE8A@localhost>
Message-ID: <00e701c5a50d$67f05a10$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> On 17 Aug 2005 at 16:10, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> Sorry, don't recall the reference nor know what "ostranenie" is.
>
> You expect everyone to know all about YOUR obscure and crackpot
> theories, but you don't know this? Not only that, you don't look it up?

The above and the rest of what Marcus says is a personal attack.  There 
seems little reason to do more than indicate why I will refrain from 
replying to it.

--Bob G. 





From cstroffo  Fri Aug 19 20:07:30 2005
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:07:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
Message-ID: <200508192243.j7JMhmSU121636@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Dear Bill knott---

Well, some of us may not count (1, 2, 6, 34, 15, hike)--but we take your
crap seriously. Thank you---

Chris

----------
>From: "William Knott" <William_Knott at emerson.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
>Date: Fri, Aug 19, 2005, 2:17 PM
>

> dear Jeff Newberry: what's your point??that  if i like one
> xtian poet (RS Thomas) i'm dutybound to like em all?...
> i've read enough Jarman to know I don't like his poetry...
> but so what?  my disapprobation is worth nothing, i have
> no power to elevate or downcast anyone's reputation....
> this thread started with Sadoff's piece in APR: he's the
> one you need to convince, since he's the one with the
> clout to get his message out in an influential journal
> like APR....  nobody who counts is going to take my
> crap seriously, and anyway many of my comments were
> in the form of questions, not statements. . .
>
> .... knotthead
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:41:08 -0400
> From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
>  <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <731bb17a0508171141279faab9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> William,
>  I have to assume that you're not familiar with much of Jarman's work, for
> the quick way that you dismiss both him and his aesthetic. Jarman was
> writing "religious poetry" long before the current administration, and I
> suspect that he'll still be writing it after the Bush administration is but
> a memory. Have you read *The Black Riviera*? What about *Questions for
> Ecclesiastes*? Are you familiar with Jarman's essays? Have you perused *The
> Secret of Poetry* or *Body and Soul*? If you have, I wonder how you can take
> this poet to task the way that you do. Particularly, *The Black Riviera* is
> a book of haunting elegies, informed by religious (pariticularly Christian)
> experience. (I ask only because most people associate Jarman exclusively
> with *The Reaper* and are unaware of the poet's other writings.)
>  I have to assume that much of your dismissal of what you see as "religious"
> poetry is motivated by your own dismissal of religion itself. Yes, there is
> a lot of quack, fundamentalist, anti-intellectual spirituality in the United
> States today (as there is around the world, as there always will be and
> always has been). However, to accuse a poet like Jarman of huckster
> Christianity isn't just unfair; it's ill-informed.
>  Do you take Di Piero and Jarman to task because they don't write poems
> about the dangers of spirituality? Or are you dismissing them because in
> your view, they haven't written about the bloody history of Christianity (as
> is the case with most world religions, as well). Is that the case? I'm just
> trying to get my head around the bile that you have for these poets. I've
> met Mark a few times, and I don't find anything phoney or false about what
> he's doing with his religion. What do you make of poets like Andrew Hudgins,
> whose Christianity certainly informs his poetry but doesn't stand at
> Hudgins' central subject? I wonder if you easily dismiss Eric Pankey or
> Scott Cairns or even Annie Dillard? What do you think of Thomas Merton? Is
> he a huckster, as well?
>  Walk into to any "Christian bookstore" and you'll likely find a lot of
> crap: sing-songey, feel-good religious poetry that ignores the facts of our
> lives. Whether or not we believe, we're grounded in the here and now;
> Jarman, Pankey, and Cairns know this truth and address it time and again in
> their poetry. Indeed, one of the central subjects in the poetry of Mark
> Jarman is the limitations of religious experience.
>  Again, I want to be very clear here. I'm not trying to start flame war nor
> am I trying to easily dismiss your claims. I am, however, trying to
> understand your position.
>  Yours,
>  Jeff Newberry
>
>  On 8/16/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:
>>
>> R.S. Thomas is a poet i particularly admire and read
>> for pleasure, and also with the desire to learn from his marvelous
>> skills and craft...
>> As an ordained Anglican priest he served for forty years in
>> rural parishes in Wales.... his poems are reiteratively if
>> not exclusively concerned with the spiritual life.... i don't
>> share his faith, but as i read him i grow more and more
>> envious of the rich metaphorical contexts which Christianity
>> provides for his poems. . . He can return, he does return,
>> again and again to those (supposed) interactions and
>> confrontations between human and deity, and somehow
>> Thomas can bring these old ciphers back to life. . . unlike
>> Yeats, Thomas was never fearful that his poetry might be "the
>> garment of religion."
>>
>> But doesn't the fact that Thomas was a priest validate and
>> justify and authenicate the spiritual concerns of his
>> poetry . . . I'm not asking that Jarman and Jane Hirshfield
>> and Di Piero and other contemporary US poets whose
>> careers benefit from the current political hegemony of
>> conservative religious forces, put their sanctimony where
>> their mouth is and take up the pulpit. . .
>>
>> (i don't admire these latter, i think they're bad poets for
>> the most part, Hirshfield is egregiously bad, but is it
>> because i question
>> their sincerity or their esthetic or both. . . )
>>
>> Here's a stanza in English translation from a long poem called
>> "Recycling" by the Polish master Rozewicz (from the eponymous
>> book pubbed by Arc in 2001; trans. by Barbara Plebanek and Tony
>> Howard):
>>
>> Joaquin Navarro-Valls
>> press spokesman
>> for the Holy See
>> would not confirm
>> reports
>> broadcast on the American
>> T.V. network A & E
>> that the Vatican secreted
>> 200 million swiss francs
>> principally gold coins
>> looted by croatian
>> fascists during the second
>> world war
>> croatian fascists who
>> mass murdered
>> Serbs Jews and Gypsies
>> carried 350 million swiss francs
>> out of Yugoslavia
>> before the end of the war
>> the British managed to intercept
>> about 150 million swiss
>> francs the rest
>> reached the Vatican whence
>> rumours suggested
>> it was transferred
>> to Spain and Argentina
>>
>> ....end quote. As he says toward the end of this section of
>> the poem, "zlote bylo milczenie swiata" :
>> gold was the world's silence
>>
>> (. . . gold can certainly buy the silence of most of us,
>> but fortunately there always some like Rozewicz and Kent
>> Johnson who won't bargain).....
>>
>> .... but my question is whether the Rozewicz i quoted, is religious
>> poetry? It's certainly about one important aspect of religion which
>> normative religious poets like Jarman
>> don't dwell on, except in speciously abstract mea culpas. . . .
>>
>> Let me end by quoting one of my faves from Thomas:
>>
>> TRAMP
>>
>> A knock at the door
>> And he stands there,
>> A tramp with his can
>> Asking for tea,
>> Strong for a poor man
>> On his way?where?
>>
>> He looks at his feet,
>> I look at the sky;
>> Over us the planes build
>> The shifting rafters
>> Of the new world
>> We have sworn by.
>>
>> I sleep in my bed,
>> He sleeps in the old,
>> Dead leaves of a ditch.
>> My dreams are haunted;
>> Are his dreams rich?
>> If I wake early,
>> He wakes cold.
>>
>> *
>>
>> .... knotthead
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From William_Knott  Fri Aug 19 19:05:50 2005
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:05:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B5B@mail.emerson.edu>

as i said last post, don't waste your time trying to convince 
me of Jarman's and other christer po's importance, go 
talk to Sadoff. . .

no one who's anyone in po-biz pays any attention to 
my opinion, and no one on this forum either. . .

and anyway, criminy jeepers, Newberry, stop complaining
when you're winning: despite all my prayers to Satan,
each time i hit the bookstores or amazon i see dozens
of "spiritual" and "religious" poetry anthologies, and NOT
A SINGLE ONE OF ATHEIST POETRY. . .

.... knotthead



Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:41:08 -0400
From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,	Views"
	<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0508171141279faab9 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

William,
 I have to assume that you're not familiar with much of Jarman's work, for 
the quick way that you dismiss both him and his aesthetic. Jarman was 
writing "religious poetry" long before the current administration, and I 
suspect that he'll still be writing it after the Bush administration is but 
a memory. Have you read *The Black Riviera*? What about *Questions for 
Ecclesiastes*? Are you familiar with Jarman's essays? Have you perused *The 
Secret of Poetry* or *Body and Soul*? If you have, I wonder how you can take 
this poet to task the way that you do. Particularly, *The Black Riviera* is 
a book of haunting elegies, informed by religious (pariticularly Christian) 
experience. (I ask only because most people associate Jarman exclusively 
with *The Reaper* and are unaware of the poet's other writings.)
 I have to assume that much of your dismissal of what you see as "religious" 
poetry is motivated by your own dismissal of religion itself. Yes, there is 
a lot of quack, fundamentalist, anti-intellectual spirituality in the United 
States today (as there is around the world, as there always will be and 
always has been). However, to accuse a poet like Jarman of huckster 
Christianity isn't just unfair; it's ill-informed.
 Do you take Di Piero and Jarman to task because they don't write poems 
about the dangers of spirituality? Or are you dismissing them because in 
your view, they haven't written about the bloody history of Christianity (as 
is the case with most world religions, as well). Is that the case? I'm just 
trying to get my head around the bile that you have for these poets. I've 
met Mark a few times, and I don't find anything phoney or false about what 
he's doing with his religion. What do you make of poets like Andrew Hudgins, 
whose Christianity certainly informs his poetry but doesn't stand at 
Hudgins' central subject? I wonder if you easily dismiss Eric Pankey or 
Scott Cairns or even Annie Dillard? What do you think of Thomas Merton? Is 
he a huckster, as well?
 Walk into to any "Christian bookstore" and you'll likely find a lot of 
crap: sing-songey, feel-good religious poetry that ignores the facts of our 
lives. Whether or not we believe, we're grounded in the here and now; 
Jarman, Pankey, and Cairns know this truth and address it time and again in 
their poetry. Indeed, one of the central subjects in the poetry of Mark 
Jarman is the limitations of religious experience. 
 Again, I want to be very clear here. I'm not trying to start flame war nor 
am I trying to easily dismiss your claims. I am, however, trying to 
understand your position.
 Yours,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 8/16/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote: 
> 
> R.S. Thomas is a poet i particularly admire and read
> for pleasure, and also with the desire to learn from his marvelous
> skills and craft...
> As an ordained Anglican priest he served for forty years in
> rural parishes in Wales.... his poems are reiteratively if
> not exclusively concerned with the spiritual life.... i don't
> share his faith, but as i read him i grow more and more
> envious of the rich metaphorical contexts which Christianity
> provides for his poems. . . He can return, he does return,
> again and again to those (supposed) interactions and
> confrontations between human and deity, and somehow
> Thomas can bring these old ciphers back to life. . . unlike
> Yeats, Thomas was never fearful that his poetry might be "the
> garment of religion."
> 
> But doesn't the fact that Thomas was a priest validate and
> justify and authenicate the spiritual concerns of his
> poetry . . . I'm not asking that Jarman and Jane Hirshfield
> and Di Piero and other contemporary US poets whose
> careers benefit from the current political hegemony of
> conservative religious forces, put their sanctimony where
> their mouth is and take up the pulpit. . .
> 
> (i don't admire these latter, i think they're bad poets for
> the most part, Hirshfield is egregiously bad, but is it
> because i question
> their sincerity or their esthetic or both. . . )
> 
> Here's a stanza in English translation from a long poem called
> "Recycling" by the Polish master Rozewicz (from the eponymous
> book pubbed by Arc in 2001; trans. by Barbara Plebanek and Tony
> Howard):
> 
> Joaquin Navarro-Valls
> press spokesman
> for the Holy See
> would not confirm
> reports
> broadcast on the American
> T.V. network A & E
> that the Vatican secreted
> 200 million swiss francs
> principally gold coins
> looted by croatian
> fascists during the second
> world war
> croatian fascists who
> mass murdered
> Serbs Jews and Gypsies
> carried 350 million swiss francs
> out of Yugoslavia
> before the end of the war
> the British managed to intercept
> about 150 million swiss
> francs the rest
> reached the Vatican whence
> rumours suggested
> it was transferred
> to Spain and Argentina
> 
> ....end quote. As he says toward the end of this section of
> the poem, "zlote bylo milczenie swiata" :
> gold was the world's silence
> 
> (. . . gold can certainly buy the silence of most of us,
> but fortunately there always some like Rozewicz and Kent
> Johnson who won't bargain).....
> 
> .... but my question is whether the Rozewicz i quoted, is religious
> poetry? It's certainly about one important aspect of religion which
> normative religious poets like Jarman
> don't dwell on, except in speciously abstract mea culpas. . . .
> 
> Let me end by quoting one of my faves from Thomas:
> 
> TRAMP
> 
> A knock at the door
> And he stands there,
> A tramp with his can
> Asking for tea,
> Strong for a poor man
> On his way?where?
> 
> He looks at his feet,
> I look at the sky;
> Over us the planes build
> The shifting rafters
> Of the new world
> We have sworn by.
> 
> I sleep in my bed,
> He sleeps in the old,
> Dead leaves of a ditch.
> My dreams are haunted;
> Are his dreams rich?
> If I wake early,
> He wakes cold.
> 
> *
> 
> .... knotthead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From schloss  Fri Aug 19 20:03:10 2005
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:03:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
Now to my subjective taste the repetition of aimless does work, and works
very well, where I do have a reservation is in No/One listens to poetry
which strikes me a slightly maudlin [DB]
<snip>

Interesting. I think we parse this differently. You hear 'NO one listens to
poetry' where I hear (along with Dan Z)  'No, one LIStens to poetry,' I
suspect. The visual ordering admits both and also a reading of 'It pounds
the shore. White and aimless signals. No' as somehow complete in itself. And
how much cruder that comma I've inserted than the line break effect,
whatever it is. Of course the line break is a rejigging of the earlier

No one listens to poetry. The ocean
Does not mean to be listened to. A drop

where similar effects apply. I'm as happy with 'listen' as with 'aimless'.
However, it's a device predominantly in the service of rhetoric rather than
being predominantly a musical and/or non semantic patterning, which is what
it tends to be with Rosselli.

<snip>
I break poetry into content and form, with poetic devices in the content
class and things like the acrostic form in the form class. [BG]
<snip>

I'd differ with you on that. Saying the _same thing_ in _another way_, one
typical way of establishing that distinction, seems to me a material
alteration of content; as when I tweak the Spicer lines above. So whilst I
can see how you might want to establish two sets of primitives if you start
with content v form I can't see what, in practice, would be a principled or
a logical way of doing so.

<snip>
Sorry, don't recall the reference nor know what "ostranenie" is.
<snip>

My mistake. David G referred to 'defamiliarisation', now that I've checked
his post. I simply translated this back into 'ostranenie', which was the
original formalist term. By making things a little weird you make it more
difficult to overlook them: 'Happy new ears' (or eyes) as Cage put it. This,
I'm arguing, is what Rosselli does with her repetitions and Spicer does in a
different way with 'aimless' and 'listen'. I'll firm up that distinction
later on.

<snip>
the experience of speech prosody, accidental rhyming etc leads to
corresponding devices [CW]

I'm not following this, I'm afraid.  [...] It may be like John M. Bennett's
use in many poems of using
what I called sub-demotic language.  Sort of grunts, pauses, etc., that seem
to naturally emerge and strike me as meaningful. [BG]
<snip>

I know too little of Bennett to offer much of a comment, I'm afraid.
However, the principle (that of focusing upon certain aspects of language or
of users' behaviour) seems to me a general one from which one can then
derive the individual devices. Thus metre, alliteration, rhyme and so forth
occur in everyday use either epiphenomenally (eg: 'I'm not Following this,
I'm aFraid...') or more or less consciously in order to warm up the language
and to focus the attention. Foregrounding one or other of these and other
effects is part of the business of making poetry. From which it follows, if
I haven't jumped too many chasms in the meantime, that devices like
Rosselli's repetitive tics, Spicer's repetitions in *Thing Music* and
Sondheim's line breaks aren't readily separable (for me at any rate) from
other devices. To which I'd now add that whereas Spicer's primary focus is
upon rhetorical heightening, whereas Rossselli's and Sondheim's focus is
upon features that _just arise_, as it were.

<snip>
I'm trying for a taxonomy and thus can't, I don't think, consider
qualitative differences (because to hard objectively to determine). [BG]
<snip>

I'm not sure I understand you here. That alliteration is not rhyme seems to
me a qualitative difference: the conceptual primitives, to come back to all
that, are a collection of things that are _qualitatively_ different. The
stage after that is to say, this poem has lots of X, unlike that one: a
quantitative difference. Only at some postponable distance down the line
does one get into the territory of talking about how well or badly the poem
itself comes out. Or have I misunderstood?

CW
__________________________________________

'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
(Morton Feldman's grandmother)





From chris.lott  Fri Aug 19 20:57:23 2005
From: chris.lott (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:57:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry (Uche Ogbuji)
In-Reply-To: <a05100305bf2c0004f0ff@204.215.201.226>
References: <a05100305bf2c0004f0ff@204.215.201.226>
Message-ID: <9b1b9dab05081917572ea8f0b7@mail.gmail.com>

That Abu G happened after Auschwitz means that it must exist in the
shadow of that great atrocity. And while some people would see that
while we can't change the past we can affect the future, engendering
an obligation to speak out even at lesser evils... there are others
like Richard Dillon, twisted by his cancerous ideology, that would use
the fact of Auschwitz to justify looking the other way at any cost to
support their sad cronies. Which is the sicker, more malicious spirit?

c




From bobgrumman  Fri Aug 19 21:25:27 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:25:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

 BG & >CW
> <snip>
> I break poetry into content and form, with poetic devices in the content
> class and things like the acrostic form in the form class. [BG]
> <snip>
>
> I'd differ with you on that. Saying the _same thing_ in _another way_, one
> typical way of establishing that distinction, seems to me a material
> alteration of content; as when I tweak the Spicer lines above. So whilst I
> can see how you might want to establish two sets of primitives if you 
> start
> with content v form I can't see what, in practice, would be a principled 
> or
> a logical way of doing so.(CW)

I'll have to think about this.  Yes, sometimes a change in form will cause a 
change in content, or vice versa.  Doesn't that only mean that form and 
content can have effects on one another?  I don't see that it matters.  When 
you change the lineation of the Spicer passage, you change both its form and 
content.  It probably isn't possible, now that I think on it, to change one 
without changing the other.  Specifically, a single change in a text of a 
poem will have to change some part of what might be called its text-map. 
Which would not be a primitive, but would combine various maps that are 
primitives, such as various repeneme maps, like a rhyme scheme, metrical 
scheme or simple syllable-per-line map.

Am I responding to what you said?  I feel fuzzy-minded about this.  But 
somehow not wrong!

> <snip>
> Sorry, don't recall the reference nor know what "ostranenie" is.
> <snip>
>
> My mistake. David G referred to 'defamiliarisation', now that I've checked
> his post. I simply translated this back into 'ostranenie', which was the
> original formalist term. By making things a little weird you make it more
> difficult to overlook them: 'Happy new ears' (or eyes) as Cage put it. 
> This,
> I'm arguing, is what Rosselli does with her repetitions and Spicer does in 
> a
> different way with 'aimless' and 'listen'. I'll firm up that distinction
> later on.

I would consider such defamiliarizations (Dickinson's "tell it slant," for 
another instance, yes?) to be classifiable as language-heighteners (which I 
now call enhanciphemes).  I haven't sold myself yet that such a category is 
needed.  The best of these things may be figures of speech--that is, uses of 
single locutions to say more than one thing.

"Aimlessly/aimless" I'd call "parallelophemes," a specific kind of repeneme. 
Maybe.


> <snip>
> the experience of speech prosody, accidental rhyming etc leads to
> corresponding devices [CW]
>
> I'm not following this, I'm afraid.  [...] It may be like John M. 
> Bennett's
> use in many poems of using
> what I called sub-demotic language.  Sort of grunts, pauses, etc., that 
> seem
> to naturally emerge and strike me as meaningful. [BG]
> <snip>
>
> I know too little of Bennett to offer much of a comment, I'm afraid.
> However, the principle (that of focusing upon certain aspects of language 
> or
> of users' behaviour) seems to me a general one from which one can then
> derive the individual devices. Thus metre, alliteration, rhyme and so 
> forth
> occur in everyday use either epiphenomenally (eg: 'I'm not Following this,
> I'm aFraid...') or more or less consciously in order to warm up the 
> language
> and to focus the attention. Foregrounding one or other of these and other
> effects is part of the business of making poetry.

I would say mainly just using it more.  Which will tend to foreground it.

> From which it follows, if
> I haven't jumped too many chasms in the meantime, that devices like
> Rosselli's repetitive tics, Spicer's repetitions in *Thing Music* and
> Sondheim's line breaks aren't readily separable (for me at any rate) from
> other devices. To which I'd now add that whereas Spicer's primary focus is
> upon rhetorical heightening, whereas Rosselli's and Sondheim's focus is
> upon features that _just arise_, as it were.

This seems subjective and not important taxonomically.  Some devices will 
seem more naturally arising than others, just as some will seem more 
dramatic or more humorous or whatever than others.

> <snip>
> I'm trying for a taxonomy and thus can't, I don't think, consider
> qualitative differences (because to hard objectively to determine). [BG]
> <snip>
>
> I'm not sure I understand you here. That alliteration is not rhyme seems 
> to
> me a qualitative difference: the conceptual primitives, to come back to 
> all
> that, are a collection of things that are _qualitatively_ different. The
> stage after that is to say, this poem has lots of X, unlike that one: a
> quantitative difference. Only at some postponable distance down the line
> does one get into the territory of talking about how well or badly the 
> poem
> itself comes out. Or have I misunderstood?
>
I wrote in haste, I guess.  Not sure what I thought I was saying, but it 
would seem I was thinking about a particular case where quantity was more 
important to me than quality, but generalized (and probably muddledly 
believed) quantity was everywhere more important (in my taxonomy) than 
quality.  You had written, "I'm thinking less of whatever quantitative 
distinction there might be between, say, a comma and a line break than of 
the
qualitatively different effects of the punctuation and the line breaks in, 
say, Spicer's (aimlessly/aimless passage)."  I guess I was thinking in terms 
of the quantity of space (or its equivalent, meaning null symbols that would 
act as space) in various flow-breaks.

You're certainly right that qualitative difference are for the most part 
key.  I guess I want to distinguish what I'd call objective qualitative 
differences from subjective ones--and called the first quantitative 
differences.  So, I don't want to bother with the difference between animal 
and bird metaphors, for instance. . . .

--Bob G.










From bobgrumman  Fri Aug 19 21:31:28 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:31:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry (Uche Ogbuji)
References: <a05100305bf2c0004f0ff@204.215.201.226>
	<9b1b9dab05081917572ea8f0b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016d01c5a526$e31baff0$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> That Abu G happened after Auschwitz means that it must exist in the
> shadow of that great atrocity. And while some people would see that
> while we can't change the past we can affect the future, engendering
> an obligation to speak out even at lesser evils... there are others
> like Richard Dillon, twisted by his cancerous ideology, that would use
> the fact of Auschwitz to justify looking the other way at any cost to
> support their sad cronies. Which is the sicker, more malicious spirit?
>
> c

What a pleasant characterization of Richard.  Thank goodness New-Poetry's 
moderator keeps the courteousness of our posts at such a commendably high 
level--except the times I happened to give my uncensored opinion of others 
(but won't again).

--Bob G. 





From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 23:16:19 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:16:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
	<016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin>

> BG & >CW
> > <snip>
> > I break poetry into content and form, with poetic devices in the content
> > class and things like the acrostic form in the form class. [BG]
> > <snip>
> >
> > I'd differ with you on that. Saying the _same thing_ in _another way_,
one
> > typical way of establishing that distinction, seems to me a material
> > alteration of content; as when I tweak the Spicer lines above. So whilst
I
> > can see how you might want to establish two sets of primitives if you
> > start
> > with content v form I can't see what, in practice, would be a principled
> > or
> > a logical way of doing so.(CW)
>
> I'll have to think about this.  Yes, sometimes a change in form will cause
a
> change in content, or vice versa.  Doesn't that only mean that form and
> content can have effects on one another?  I don't see that it matters.
[BG]

The problem I have with Bob's lines above are with the words "sometimes" and
"can", and the final six-word sentence.

For me, form and content are *inextricably* related, *always* -- it's
impossible to change one without, on whatever level from the trivial to the
radical, changing the other.  This applies not simply to individual texts
such as the tweaking of the Spicer example but also -- and where I really
disagree with Bob -- on the larger level too.

It struck me that a test-case might be the sonnet, and here I hit a problem.
The logic of my position would have to be that the introduction of the
English Sonnet -- abab  cdcd efef gg -- alongside the earlier abbaabba cde
cde -- *enforced* a change in content.  But I'm much more inclined to say it
*enabled* a different content.

Um ...  It's easy to make a case for "enabled", but is that sufficient for
my position?  Whatever, I do think it matters, profoundly, whether (like me)
you see the two as inextricably linked or Bob, who often argues for a
complete disjuction in terms of his taxonomy between the two.  The two views
have different consequences in how we understand both individual texts and t
he development of poetry over time.

Whoever's right or wrong, it does at least matter.

> When
> you change the lineation of the Spicer passage, you change both its form
and
> content.  It probably isn't possible, now that I think on it, to change
one
> without changing the other.  Specifically, a single change in a text of a
> poem will have to change some part of what might be called its text-map.
> Which would not be a primitive, but would combine various maps that are
> primitives, such as various repeneme maps, like a rhyme scheme, metrical
> scheme or simple syllable-per-line map.

Well, that I'd entirely agree with, Bob, but I don't quite see how it sits
comfortably with many of your earlier statements, as I've understood them.

Robin





From robin.hamilton2  Fri Aug 19 23:34:58 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 04:34:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <005201c5a538$24790630$f29c9951@Robin>

> It struck me that a test-case might be the sonnet, and here I hit a
problem.
> The logic of my position would have to be that the introduction of the
> English Sonnet -- abab  cdcd efef gg -- alongside the earlier abbaabba cde
> cde -- *enforced* a change in content.  But I'm much more inclined to say
it
> *enabled* a different content.

To expand this a little, and harden my position.

The octave/sestet division is effectively bound-into the rhyme scheme of the
Italian form of the sonnet.  (Can anyone think of an example where the
movement/argument/whatever of an Italian sonnet breaks somewhere in the
octave and carries across the octave/sestet boundary?)

While it's (obviously) possible to preserve this in the English Sonnet,
there the octave/sestet division isn't compulsory (bound into the rhyme
scheme) and if employed (as it often is) is employed as "an act of choice".
This means that the poem *can't* "mean the same".  A change of form
*enforces* a change in content.

As for enables, well could Walter Ralegh have written "Three things there be
that flourish up apace ... " in the Italian form?

Robin





From david.bircumshaw  Sat Aug 20 02:59:19 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:59:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <00f301c5a554$c66152b0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Yes, Christopher, it is the emphasis that I 'hear' on NO that puts me off.
Partly it is the open vowel at the line-end which pushes me to that reading.
Also it could be said that the way I speak, which is very working-class
stress-emphatic leads me to such reading.

Cheers

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices


> <snip>
> Now to my subjective taste the repetition of aimless does work, and works
> very well, where I do have a reservation is in No/One listens to poetry
> which strikes me a slightly maudlin [DB]
> <snip>
>
> Interesting. I think we parse this differently. You hear 'NO one listens
to
> poetry' where I hear (along with Dan Z)  'No, one LIStens to poetry,' I
> suspect. The visual ordering admits both and also a reading of 'It pounds
> the shore. White and aimless signals. No' as somehow complete in itself.
And
> how much cruder that comma I've inserted than the line break effect,
> whatever it is. Of course the line break is a rejigging of the earlier
>
> No one listens to poetry. The ocean
> Does not mean to be listened to. A drop
>
> where similar effects apply. I'm as happy with 'listen' as with 'aimless'.
> However, it's a device predominantly in the service of rhetoric rather
than
> being predominantly a musical and/or non semantic patterning, which is
what
> it tends to be with Rosselli.
>
> <snip>
> I break poetry into content and form, with poetic devices in the content
> class and things like the acrostic form in the form class. [BG]
> <snip>
>
> I'd differ with you on that. Saying the _same thing_ in _another way_, one
> typical way of establishing that distinction, seems to me a material
> alteration of content; as when I tweak the Spicer lines above. So whilst I
> can see how you might want to establish two sets of primitives if you
start
> with content v form I can't see what, in practice, would be a principled
or
> a logical way of doing so.
>
> <snip>
> Sorry, don't recall the reference nor know what "ostranenie" is.
> <snip>
>
> My mistake. David G referred to 'defamiliarisation', now that I've checked
> his post. I simply translated this back into 'ostranenie', which was the
> original formalist term. By making things a little weird you make it more
> difficult to overlook them: 'Happy new ears' (or eyes) as Cage put it.
This,
> I'm arguing, is what Rosselli does with her repetitions and Spicer does in
a
> different way with 'aimless' and 'listen'. I'll firm up that distinction
> later on.
>
> <snip>
> the experience of speech prosody, accidental rhyming etc leads to
> corresponding devices [CW]
>
> I'm not following this, I'm afraid.  [...] It may be like John M.
Bennett's
> use in many poems of using
> what I called sub-demotic language.  Sort of grunts, pauses, etc., that
seem
> to naturally emerge and strike me as meaningful. [BG]
> <snip>
>
> I know too little of Bennett to offer much of a comment, I'm afraid.
> However, the principle (that of focusing upon certain aspects of language
or
> of users' behaviour) seems to me a general one from which one can then
> derive the individual devices. Thus metre, alliteration, rhyme and so
forth
> occur in everyday use either epiphenomenally (eg: 'I'm not Following this,
> I'm aFraid...') or more or less consciously in order to warm up the
language
> and to focus the attention. Foregrounding one or other of these and other
> effects is part of the business of making poetry. From which it follows,
if
> I haven't jumped too many chasms in the meantime, that devices like
> Rosselli's repetitive tics, Spicer's repetitions in *Thing Music* and
> Sondheim's line breaks aren't readily separable (for me at any rate) from
> other devices. To which I'd now add that whereas Spicer's primary focus is
> upon rhetorical heightening, whereas Rossselli's and Sondheim's focus is
> upon features that _just arise_, as it were.
>
> <snip>
> I'm trying for a taxonomy and thus can't, I don't think, consider
> qualitative differences (because to hard objectively to determine). [BG]
> <snip>
>
> I'm not sure I understand you here. That alliteration is not rhyme seems
to
> me a qualitative difference: the conceptual primitives, to come back to
all
> that, are a collection of things that are _qualitatively_ different. The
> stage after that is to say, this poem has lots of X, unlike that one: a
> quantitative difference. Only at some postponable distance down the line
> does one get into the territory of talking about how well or badly the
poem
> itself comes out. Or have I misunderstood?
>
> CW
> __________________________________________
>
> 'When six men tell you you're drunk, Morty, lie down'
> (Morton Feldman's grandmother)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From david.bircumshaw  Sat Aug 20 05:14:10 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:14:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test - please delete
References: <000a01c5a3cd$94103340$51ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<20050819011404.M91622@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <012401c5a567$9c086ea0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Nice one. Now is it a) kay-paul or b) ker-paul (as in the
mediaeval -ker-nicht - for knight)?

Just curious.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "kpaul mallasch" <kpaul at mallasch.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Cc: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>; "James Finnegan"
<JforJames at aol.com>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test - please delete


> where are you going, Dave?
>
> (sorry, couldn't resist. ;)
>
> -kpaul
>
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>
> > just checking - I seem to have a problem
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini  Sat Aug 20 06:41:14 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:41:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry (Uche Ogbuji)
References: <a05100305bf2c0004f0ff@204.215.201.226><9b1b9dab05081917572ea8f0b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<016d01c5a526$e31baff0$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002501c5a573$b0c798a0$f5ab3252@ANNY>

Hi Bob,

let me do the part of the devil. Unluckily this thread reflects what is 
going on, what people in the street talk about. Everybody has _AN_ opinion, 
and his/her opinion is sacred. This is the only point I do not like of this 
thread. The precise _sacredness_ of one's rooted opinion. And that I like it 
or not, under the all-pervasive light of this 
sacredness-sanctity-absoluteness-omnipotence of thought I read many of my 
chosen poets for the Corner - that I wish while reading all these posts that 
they should find a point in common, that one of them is willing to 
compromise, this goes without saying, but Absoluteness cannot accept 
anything else but the unique existence of the One, thus here they are, all 
killing one another.

Sadly,

Anny

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 3:31 AM


>> That Abu G happened after Auschwitz means that it must exist in the
>> shadow of that great atrocity. And while some people would see that
>> while we can't change the past we can affect the future, engendering
>> an obligation to speak out even at lesser evils... there are others
>> like Richard Dillon, twisted by his cancerous ideology, that would use
>> the fact of Auschwitz to justify looking the other way at any cost to
>> support their sad cronies. Which is the sicker, more malicious spirit?
>>
>> c
>
> What a pleasant characterization of Richard.  Thank goodness New-Poetry's 
> moderator keeps the courteousness of our posts at such a commendably high 
> level--except the times I happened to give my uncensored opinion of others 
> (but won't again).
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From kpaul  Sat Aug 20 07:10:26 2005
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:10:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Test - please delete
In-Reply-To: <012401c5a567$9c086ea0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
References: <000a01c5a3cd$94103340$51ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<20050819011404.M91622@kpaul.spinweb.net>
	<012401c5a567$9c086ea0$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <20050820060516.L48747@kpaul.spinweb.net>

heh. long story;
short - same 1st
name as father -
ken (so i can
go by my middle
name) then,
picking a byline,
i added the k in front
because (believe it or
not) there is another
Paul (g) Mallasch who
works for NASA. any
way, once email become
bigger, and i started
registering for user-
names, it was abbrev.
to the 'kpaul' - and
it become funny to see
(well, to me) whether
or not people would
pronounce the 'k' when
they said my name for the
first time in person or on
the phone after i signed most
everything with the k.

i don't know, i'm weird
and slightly poetic
at times. (i think...)

;)

and as for medieval times;
i didn't know that. thx.

-kpaul



On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, David Bircumshaw wrote:

> Nice one. Now is it a) kay-paul or b) ker-paul (as in the
> mediaeval -ker-nicht - for knight)?
>
> Just curious.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kpaul mallasch" <kpaul at mallasch.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Cc: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>; "James Finnegan"
> <JforJames at aol.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Test - please delete
>
>
>> where are you going, Dave?
>>
>> (sorry, couldn't resist. ;)
>>
>> -kpaul
>>
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, David Bircumshaw wrote:
>>
>>> just checking - I seem to have a problem
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 08:22:50 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:22:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>> BG & >CW
>> > <snip>
>> > I break poetry into content and form, with poetic devices in the 
>> > content
>> > class and things like the acrostic form in the form class. [BG]
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > I'd differ with you on that. Saying the _same thing_ in _another way_,
> one
>> > typical way of establishing that distinction, seems to me a material
>> > alteration of content; as when I tweak the Spicer lines above. So 
>> > whilst
> I
>> > can see how you might want to establish two sets of primitives if you
>> > start
>> > with content v form I can't see what, in practice, would be a 
>> > principled
>> > or
>> > a logical way of doing so.(CW)
>>
>> I'll have to think about this.  Yes, sometimes a change in form will 
>> cause
> a
>> change in content, or vice versa.  Doesn't that only mean that form and
>> content can have effects on one another?  I don't see that it matters.
> [BG]
>
> The problem I have with Bob's lines above are with the words "sometimes" 
> and
> "can", and the final six-word sentence.

I go on in my post to drop "sometimes" and "can."  And my six-word sentence 
is short for "I don't see that it matters--so far as taxonomy is concerned."

> For me, form and content are *inextricably* related, *always* -- it's
> impossible to change one without, on whatever level from the trivial to 
> the
> radical, changing the other.  This applies not simply to individual texts
> such as the tweaking of the Spicer example but also -- and where I really
> disagree with Bob -- on the larger level too.
>
> It struck me that a test-case might be the sonnet, and here I hit a 
> problem.
> The logic of my position would have to be that the introduction of the
> English Sonnet -- abab  cdcd efef gg -- alongside the earlier abbaabba cde
> cde -- *enforced* a change in content.  But I'm much more inclined to say 
> it
> *enabled* a different content.
>
> Um ...  It's easy to make a case for "enabled", but is that sufficient for
> my position?  Whatever, I do think it matters, profoundly, whether (like 
> me)
> you see the two as inextricably linked or Bob, who often argues for a
> complete disjuction in terms of his taxonomy between the two.  The two 
> views
> have different consequences in how we understand both individual texts and 
> t
> he development of poetry over time.

I'm arguing, or go on to argue, or try to argue, that ALTHOUGH form and 
content are inextricably interrelated, they are STILL two entirely separate 
things.  Like meaning and sound.  "Crap" has a meaning and a sound.  You 
can't have one without the other, but they're still two different things.  A 
closer analogy would be that "crap" has a spelling and a sound, etc.

> Whoever's right or wrong, it does at least matter.
>
>> When
>> you change the lineation of the Spicer passage, you change both its form
> and
>> content.  It probably isn't possible, now that I think on it, to change
> one
>> without changing the other.  Specifically, a single change in a text of a
>> poem will have to change some part of what might be called its text-map.
>> Which would not be a primitive, but would combine various maps that are
>> primitives, such as various repeneme maps, like a rhyme scheme, metrical
>> scheme or simple syllable-per-line map.
>
> Well, that I'd entirely agree with, Bob, but I don't quite see how it sits
> comfortably with many of your earlier statements, as I've understood them.
>
> Robin

Well, if I hadn't been warned not to, I'd tell you off, Robin.

Bob 





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 08:33:12 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:33:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry (Uche Ogbuji)
References: <a05100305bf2c0004f0ff@204.215.201.226><9b1b9dab05081917572ea8f0b7@mail.gmail.com><016d01c5a526$e31baff0$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002501c5a573$b0c798a0$f5ab3252@ANNY>
Message-ID: <001901c5a583$549580f0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

You weren't much of a devil, Anny, just common-sensical.  Here's a True 
Devil's opinion: throughout recorded history, human beings have at times 
been very very very mean to each other.  Sad but true, but not enough to 
psychologically incapacitate a sensible person, or be worth a thread like 
this Abu Ghrab one.

--Bob 





From robin.hamilton2  Sat Aug 20 08:47:30 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:47:30 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin>

> > The problem I have with Bob's lines above are with the words "sometimes"
> > and
> > "can", and the final six-word sentence.
>
> I go on in my post to drop "sometimes" and "can."  And my six-word
sentence
> is short for "I don't see that it matters--so far as taxonomy is
concerned."

Yes, the expansion makes it more acceptable to me.  But it also points to
one of the limitations of taxonomy, nah?  It's not that I'm absolutely
against taxonomy, but  ...   Ah, I dunno -- my brain seems to be refusing to
get in gear today.

        [SNIP]

> > Um ...  It's easy to make a case for "enabled", but is that sufficient
for
> > my position?  Whatever, I do think it matters, profoundly, whether (like
> > me)
> > you see the two as inextricably linked or Bob, who often argues for a
> > complete disjuction in terms of his taxonomy between the two.  The two
> > views
> > have different consequences in how we understand both individual texts
and
> > t
> > he development of poetry over time.
>
> I'm arguing, or go on to argue, or try to argue, that ALTHOUGH form and
> content are inextricably interrelated, they are STILL two entirely
separate
> things.  Like meaning and sound.  "Crap" has a meaning and a sound.  You
> can't have one without the other, but they're still two different things.
A
> closer analogy would be that "crap" has a spelling and a sound, etc.

I don't think I go with you here -- I think it's more complicated than that.
(Typical pusilanimous cop-out on my part, but it's not that I'm not prepared
to argue this through, just that there are so many issues.  Saussure for
one.)

You say:  <"crap" has a spelling and a sound>.  Not to be picky (well, yes)
but the orthographic item "crap" DOESN'T have a sound.  It's a way of
representing a sound, which could be represented in more than several other
ways, even idiographically via a pile of bullshit.

It's not that I don't think there's a productive disagreement here, just
that I'm not up to pursuing it at the moment.

        [SNIP]

> Well, if I hadn't been warned not to, I'd tell you off, Robin.

Feel free, Bob -- I can take it.  If you're worried about the consequences
of badmouthing me on the list, you could always excoriate me on your blog.
<g>

Robin

(thinking of the entry on Bob's blog for 19th August, which by a species of
coincidence was sitting in another window on my screen when Bob's post
appeared)






From anny.ballardini  Sat Aug 20 09:57:35 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:57:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Heart Work
Message-ID: <002f01c5a58f$1e755700$c2af3452@ANNY>

I am putting on the Poets' Corner Sharon Dolin's wonderful contribution, here is a poem, and here is her sub-index I am completing
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=183 :

 
HEART WORK




                                        

                            Work of the eyes is done, now

                            go and do heart-work

                            on all the images imprisoned within you . . . 

                                                    

                                                                --Rainer Maria Rilke

     

     

    Having reached the clandestine park 

    where all the birds unpearl their feathery necks,

    having absorbed the last images of her: porcelain

    head unsteady on spindly frame, then

    swollen and dying

     

    Now do heart work:

    Take down the angry pose--the nervous

    lip-biting, pacing inside the small room of want--

    to find a self pinched back

    imprisoned still by images

    not fully risen to the surface.

     

    In the photographer's studio, so much is soaking

    in the hearty red fluid light

    I'm having trouble getting back into the room

    without tears to turn the handle,

    pull the darks out of the lights

    and greys: to look her image back

    into its separate gloss, not glaze

    over and become its mirror. 

     

    The work of separate selves continues: mine beneath

    fan-blades that flick the breeze like lines

    of verse to cool the heart; hers beneath

    the earth, outside of time to mark its

    boundaries, the silence that encases 

    all these calls.

     

     

    ("Heart Work" from HEART WORK, by Sharon Dolin ? 1995. 

    With permission of the publisher, The Sheep Meadow Press, all rights reserved.)

     



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 11:04:35 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:04:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

. . . there are so many issues.  Saussure for
> one.)

Suassure I've read about, then dismissed so thoroughly I can't remember what 
he was talking about.  Sorry.

> You say:  <"crap" has a spelling and a sound>.  Not to be picky (well, 
> yes)
> but the orthographic item "crap" DOESN'T have a sound.  It's a way of
> representing a sound, which could be represented in more than several 
> other
> ways, even idiographically via a pile of bullshit.

> It's not that I don't think there's a productive disagreement here, just
> that I'm not up to pursuing it at the moment.

I would argue that the thing "crap" is four letters on a page that represent 
a particular sound.  Doesn't matter if it could be spelled "krap," too, with 
the same result.  That it can be spelled with a "k" spoils my analogy a bit, 
though.  But I'm just saying that the fact that some X must interact always 
with some Y doesn't mean we can clearly distinguish the two taxonomically. 
I'd have to say that "crap" on the page is a spelling, a connoter, a 
sound-indicater and a denoter.  You can't change one without changing at 
least one of the others, but the four things "crap" is (among other things) 
remain disparate.

>        [SNIP]
>
>> Well, if I hadn't been warned not to, I'd tell you off, Robin.
>
> Feel free, Bob -- I can take it.  If you're worried about the consequences
> of badmouthing me on the list, you could always excoriate me on your blog.
> <g>
Can't do that, Robin--Marcus and I have a signed contract.

--Bob 





From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 11:27:07 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:27:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004f01c5a59b$a0c13e20$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Correction

But I'm just saying that the fact that some X must interact always with some 
Y doesn't mean we CAN'T clearly distinguish the two taxonomically.

Jeezuhz, I wish I wouldn't do that (even though it would seem just about 
everyone does).

--Bob 





From editor  Sat Aug 20 11:28:37 2005
From: editor (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:28:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Language Ennobled the Material" 
Message-ID: <200508201528.j7KFSbDm031733@mail11.atl.registeredsite.com>

.  

This is an excerpt from Roger Ebert's (sorry) response to a response (from 
the filmmakers) to his review for the movie Chaos:  


"What I miss in your film is any sense of hope. Sometimes it is all that 
keeps us going. The message of futility and despair in "Chaos" is 
unrelieved, and while I do not require a "happy ending," I do appreciate 
some kind of catharsis. As the Greeks understood tragedy, it exists not to 
bury us in death and dismay, but to help us to deal with it, to accept it as a 
part of life, to learn about our own humanity from it. That is why the Greek 
tragedies were poems: The language ennobled the material.


"Animals do not know they are going to die, and require no way to deal 
with that implacable fact. Humans, who know we will die, have been given 
the consolations of art, myth, hope, science, religion, philosophy, and even 
denial, even movies, to help us reconcile with that final fact. What I object to 
most of all in "Chaos" is not the sadism, the brutality, the torture, the 
nihilism, but the absence of any alternative to them. If the world has indeed 
become as evil as you think, then we need the redemptive power of artists, 
poets, philosophers and theologians more than ever. 


"Your answer, that the world is evil and therefore it is your responsibility to 
reflect it, is no answer at all, but a surrender."  

.

Just some food for thought.  


Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  

.    

http://eratio.blogspot.com/  

http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/  


.




From clitophon  Sat Aug 20 11:32:43 2005
From: clitophon (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] www.theengine.net
In-Reply-To: <200508201528.j7KFSbDm031733@mail11.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <20050820153243.34470.qmail@web40421.mail.yahoo.com>

Even more new writing on Germany @ www.theengine.net

+ Paul McCarthy, Gerhard Richter in Munich

++ new writing from Catalunya

+++Simon Jenner on Richard Wagner, Sophokles/H?lderlin
at the Glyptothek, Munich 




		
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From robin.hamilton2  Sat Aug 20 12:18:59 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:18:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin>
	<002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <009101c5a5a2$e0526b70$f29c9951@Robin>

> Suassure I've read about, then dismissed so thoroughly I can't remember
what
> he was talking about.  Sorry.

K.  Let's leave that for later.  (I'm a Saussurean Fundamentalist, and read
the Course in General Linguistics the same way that a Bible Belt Christian
reads the Old Testament.)

> I would argue ...

OK, let's unpick what you say.

> I would argue that the thing "crap" is four letters on a page

I'd agree the four letters, but what I'm seeing is on a computer screen, not
a page (implicitly, of paper).

That's not just picky -- you could have moved to a (taxonomic) level of
abstraction where the enscribing of "crap" written on a page, presented on a
computer screen or carved in granite are functionally (?) identical (and
contrast to the aural manifestation of <crap>).  But saying "on a page" both
misrepresents what I see and selects a particular instance from a series.
And you the taxonomist!  <g>

OK, how about, "One aspect of <crap> is the visual manifestation of the
letters."

> that represent
> a particular sound.

No they don't, not a "particular" sound, if you mean by that one specific
sound.  I bet I pronounce the "a" vowel differently from you, and as a Scot,
I'd roll the "r".

Again, that might sound simply picky, but what you said there either
misrepresents reality or begs more than several questions.

Also "letters represent sounds" seems to me, per se, a little over-simple,
even leaving aside our particular pronunciations.

> Doesn't matter if it could be spelled "krap," too, with
> the same result.

Hm ...  Extend that and spell it "Krapp" -- the same sound (you and I may
sound it differently but we'd both sound crap/krapp the same way).  Same
result?  No way.

> That it can be spelled with a "k" spoils my analogy a bit,

It's simple homophone territory.  (Among other things.)  Unfortunately, the
very concept of a homophone complicates the visual/aural distinction you're
(are you?) trying to sustain.

> But I'm just saying that the fact that some X must interact always with
some
> Y doesn't mean we CAN'T clearly distinguish the two taxonomically.

K, I'll give you that, Bob, in the sense that a cat has (usually) four legs
and a tail, and we can tell them apart.

What I'm more concerned with is the way that a -- how to put it? -- 'bare
taxonomy' abolishes significant difference.  And failing to take account of
certain significant differences (stone, monitor, paper) -- the sweet
particularity of things -- undermines the validity of the taxonomy.

It turns, I think, on the level of abstraction that's chosen -- too
specific, and you're describing rather than deploying a taxonomy, too
general, and the taxonomy is flawed, platitudinous, misguided and
misguiding.

> I'd have to say that "crap" on the page is a spelling, a connoter, a
> sound-indicater and a denoter.

Ugh ...

<crap>, whether as visual or an auditory signifier, both connotes and
denotes.  And I'm not simply playing around -- on one level, the written and
the spoken versions of <crap> are parallel, so to separate them out on the
same level as denotation and connotation is wrong.  Equally, denotation and
connotation are aspects of <crap> the sign.  Or do I mean signifier?
Anyway, it's the WORD, whether spoken or written, which denotes and
connotes.

So to lump "spelling, a connoter, a sound-indicater and a denoter" together
as if they all existed on the same level seems to me ... simply wrong.

> You can't change one without changing at
> least one of the others,

Yes

> but the four things "crap" is (among other things)
> remain disparate.

No

The Cheshire Kat





From jeff.newberry  Sat Aug 20 12:47:27 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:47:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B5B@mail.emerson.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B5B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <731bb17a0508200947ce2c57c@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not quite following your acerbic tone, William. I was just asking a few 
questions about your last post. 
 I seem to have a hit a nerve with you, and I'm sorry. As I said, I'm not 
trying to start a flame war nor am I dismissing your view point. I only 
wanted to ask some clarifying questions.
 By the way, I think there is an athiest anthology: The Outlaw Bible of 
American Poetry ;-)
  Cheers,
 Jeff Newberry

 On 8/19/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote: 
> 
> as i said last post, don't waste your time trying to convince
> me of Jarman's and other christer po's importance, go
> talk to Sadoff. . .
> 
> no one who's anyone in po-biz pays any attention to
> my opinion, and no one on this forum either. . .
> 
> and anyway, criminy jeepers, Newberry, stop complaining
> when you're winning: despite all my prayers to Satan,
> each time i hit the bookstores or amazon i see dozens
> of "spiritual" and "religious" poetry anthologies, and NOT
> A SINGLE ONE OF ATHEIST POETRY. . .
> 
> .... knotthead
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:41:08 -0400
> From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and religion
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Message-ID: <731bb17a0508171141279faab9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> 
> William,
> I have to assume that you're not familiar with much of Jarman's work, for
> the quick way that you dismiss both him and his aesthetic. Jarman was
> writing "religious poetry" long before the current administration, and I
> suspect that he'll still be writing it after the Bush administration is 
> but
> a memory. Have you read *The Black Riviera*? What about *Questions for
> Ecclesiastes*? Are you familiar with Jarman's essays? Have you perused 
> *The
> Secret of Poetry* or *Body and Soul*? If you have, I wonder how you can 
> take
> this poet to task the way that you do. Particularly, *The Black Riviera* 
> is
> a book of haunting elegies, informed by religious (pariticularly 
> Christian)
> experience. (I ask only because most people associate Jarman exclusively
> with *The Reaper* and are unaware of the poet's other writings.)
> I have to assume that much of your dismissal of what you see as 
> "religious"
> poetry is motivated by your own dismissal of religion itself. Yes, there 
> is
> a lot of quack, fundamentalist, anti-intellectual spirituality in the 
> United
> States today (as there is around the world, as there always will be and
> always has been). However, to accuse a poet like Jarman of huckster
> Christianity isn't just unfair; it's ill-informed.
> Do you take Di Piero and Jarman to task because they don't write poems
> about the dangers of spirituality? Or are you dismissing them because in
> your view, they haven't written about the bloody history of Christianity 
> (as
> is the case with most world religions, as well). Is that the case? I'm 
> just
> trying to get my head around the bile that you have for these poets. I've
> met Mark a few times, and I don't find anything phoney or false about what
> he's doing with his religion. What do you make of poets like Andrew 
> Hudgins,
> whose Christianity certainly informs his poetry but doesn't stand at
> Hudgins' central subject? I wonder if you easily dismiss Eric Pankey or
> Scott Cairns or even Annie Dillard? What do you think of Thomas Merton? Is
> he a huckster, as well?
> Walk into to any "Christian bookstore" and you'll likely find a lot of
> crap: sing-songey, feel-good religious poetry that ignores the facts of 
> our
> lives. Whether or not we believe, we're grounded in the here and now;
> Jarman, Pankey, and Cairns know this truth and address it time and again 
> in
> their poetry. Indeed, one of the central subjects in the poetry of Mark
> Jarman is the limitations of religious experience.
> Again, I want to be very clear here. I'm not trying to start flame war nor
> am I trying to easily dismiss your claims. I am, however, trying to
> understand your position.
> Yours,
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> On 8/16/05, William Knott <William_Knott at emerson.edu> wrote:
> >
> > R.S. Thomas is a poet i particularly admire and read
> > for pleasure, and also with the desire to learn from his marvelous
> > skills and craft...
> > As an ordained Anglican priest he served for forty years in
> > rural parishes in Wales.... his poems are reiteratively if
> > not exclusively concerned with the spiritual life.... i don't
> > share his faith, but as i read him i grow more and more
> > envious of the rich metaphorical contexts which Christianity
> > provides for his poems. . . He can return, he does return,
> > again and again to those (supposed) interactions and
> > confrontations between human and deity, and somehow
> > Thomas can bring these old ciphers back to life. . . unlike
> > Yeats, Thomas was never fearful that his poetry might be "the
> > garment of religion."
> >
> > But doesn't the fact that Thomas was a priest validate and
> > justify and authenicate the spiritual concerns of his
> > poetry . . . I'm not asking that Jarman and Jane Hirshfield
> > and Di Piero and other contemporary US poets whose
> > careers benefit from the current political hegemony of
> > conservative religious forces, put their sanctimony where
> > their mouth is and take up the pulpit. . .
> >
> > (i don't admire these latter, i think they're bad poets for
> > the most part, Hirshfield is egregiously bad, but is it
> > because i question
> > their sincerity or their esthetic or both. . . )
> >
> > Here's a stanza in English translation from a long poem called
> > "Recycling" by the Polish master Rozewicz (from the eponymous
> > book pubbed by Arc in 2001; trans. by Barbara Plebanek and Tony
> > Howard):
> >
> > Joaquin Navarro-Valls
> > press spokesman
> > for the Holy See
> > would not confirm
> > reports
> > broadcast on the American
> > T.V. network A & E
> > that the Vatican secreted
> > 200 million swiss francs
> > principally gold coins
> > looted by croatian
> > fascists during the second
> > world war
> > croatian fascists who
> > mass murdered
> > Serbs Jews and Gypsies
> > carried 350 million swiss francs
> > out of Yugoslavia
> > before the end of the war
> > the British managed to intercept
> > about 150 million swiss
> > francs the rest
> > reached the Vatican whence
> > rumours suggested
> > it was transferred
> > to Spain and Argentina
> >
> > ....end quote. As he says toward the end of this section of
> > the poem, "zlote bylo milczenie swiata" :
> > gold was the world's silence
> >
> > (. . . gold can certainly buy the silence of most of us,
> > but fortunately there always some like Rozewicz and Kent
> > Johnson who won't bargain).....
> >
> > .... but my question is whether the Rozewicz i quoted, is religious
> > poetry? It's certainly about one important aspect of religion which
> > normative religious poets like Jarman
> > don't dwell on, except in speciously abstract mea culpas. . . .
> >
> > Let me end by quoting one of my faves from Thomas:
> >
> > TRAMP
> >
> > A knock at the door
> > And he stands there,
> > A tramp with his can
> > Asking for tea,
> > Strong for a poor man
> > On his way?where?
> >
> > He looks at his feet,
> > I look at the sky;
> > Over us the planes build
> > The shifting rafters
> > Of the new world
> > We have sworn by.
> >
> > I sleep in my bed,
> > He sleeps in the old,
> > Dead leaves of a ditch.
> > My dreams are haunted;
> > Are his dreams rich?
> > If I wake early,
> > He wakes cold.
> >
> > *
> >
> > .... knotthead
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 


-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 12:51:35 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:51:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin><002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<009101c5a5a2$e0526b70$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <00af01c5a5a7$6d719950$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Marc--I mean, Robin, you're fulluvit.

>> Suassure I've read about, then dismissed so thoroughly I can't remember
> what
>> he was talking about.  Sorry.
>
> K.  Let's leave that for later.  (I'm a Saussurean Fundamentalist, and 
> read
> the Course in General Linguistics the same way that a Bible Belt Christian
> reads the Old Testament.)

For all I know, I read him and AGREED with him so totally, I fogot all about 
him.

>> I would argue ...
>
> OK, let's unpick what you say.
>
>> I would argue that the thing "crap" is four letters on a page
>
> I'd agree the four letters, but what I'm seeing is on a computer screen, 
> not
> a page (implicitly, of paper).
>
> That's not just picky -- you could have moved to a (taxonomic) level of
> abstraction where the enscribing of "crap" written on a page, presented on 
> a
> computer screen or carved in granite are functionally (?) identical (and
> contrast to the aural manifestation of <crap>).  But saying "on a page" 
> both
> misrepresents what I see and selects a particular instance from a series.
> And you the taxonomist!  <g>

I think it IS hyper-picky.  One can always "unpick" a text the way you do 
here.  So: letters on a ground which can be paper, etc.  And, sure, the 
medium can be expressive, too.

> OK, how about, "One aspect of <crap> is the visual manifestation of the
> letters."

That's good.

>> that represent
>> a particular sound.

> No they don't, not a "particular" sound, if you mean by that one specific
> sound.  I bet I pronounce the "a" vowel differently from you, and as a 
> Scot,
> I'd roll the "r".

Hyper-nit-pickery, I feel.  One particular sound for the text-maker, one 
particular sound for the . . . ensumer.  (See my blog entry for today).  Or 
one particular set of sounds, who cares?

> Again, that might sound simply picky, but what you said there either
> misrepresents reality or begs more than several questions.
>
> Also "letters represent sounds" seems to me, per se, a little over-simple,
> even leaving aside our particular pronunciations.

>> Doesn't matter if it could be spelled "krap," too, with
>> the same result.
>
> Hm ...  Extend that and spell it "Krapp" -- the same sound (you and I may
> sound it differently but we'd both sound crap/krapp the same way).  Same
> result?  No way.
>
>> That it can be spelled with a "k" spoils my analogy a bit,
>
> It's simple homophone territory.  (Among other things.)  Unfortunately, 
> the
> very concept of a homophone complicates the visual/aural distinction 
> you're
> (are you?) trying to sustain.

Why?  "Sea" and "see" have the same sound but look different.  They share 
one aspect, they fail to share a second.

>> But I'm just saying that the fact that some X must interact always with
> some
>> Y doesn't mean we CAN'T clearly distinguish the two taxonomically.
>
> K, I'll give you that, Bob, in the sense that a cat has (usually) four 
> legs
> and a tail, and we can tell them apart.

More a cat has a color and a shape.  A cat with no color would have no 
shape.  That's not quite what I mean, either, actually.  I'm talking about 
attributes that are inseparable but distinguishable, anyway.



> What I'm more concerned with is the way that a -- how to put it? -- 'bare
> taxonomy' abolishes significant difference.  And failing to take account 
> of
> certain significant differences (stone, monitor, paper) -- the sweet
> particularity of things -- undermines the validity of the taxonomy.

I simply don't see it.  The significant "ignored" differences can be the 
basis of another taxonomy or another layer of a toing taxonomy.  Should we 
drop "alliteration" as a class of poetic device because it ignores the 
significant difference between the bad/bug alliteration and the crazy/cat 
alliteration?

> It turns, I think, on the level of abstraction that's chosen -- too
> specific, and you're describing rather than deploying a taxonomy, too
> general, and the taxonomy is flawed, platitudinous, misguided and
> misguiding.

Sure.  So you start as general as possible, and work your way down.

 >> I'd have to say that "crap" on the page is a spelling, a connoter, a
>> sound-indicater and a denoter.
>
> Ugh ...
>
> <crap>, whether as visual or an auditory signifier, both connotes and
> denotes.  And I'm not simply playing around -- on one level, the written 
> and
> the spoken versions of <crap> are parallel, so to separate them out on the
> same level as denotation and connotation is wrong.  Equally, denotation 
> and
> connotation are aspects of <crap> the sign.  Or do I mean signifier?

I don't see where this "on the same level" comes in.  If we catalogue 
objects of a certain size or larger in the solar system into stars, planets, 
satellites, asteroids and comets, are we saying they are all equally 
important?

> Anyway, it's the WORD, whether spoken or written, which denotes and
> connotes.

Yes, but the word is also its letters (and, maybe, punctuation marks).  And 
the word does all the other things I mention, like represent a sound.

> So to lump "spelling, a connoter, a sound-indicater and a denoter" 
> together
> as if they all existed on the same level seems to me ... simply wrong.
>
>> You can't change one without changing at
>> least one of the others,
>
> Yes
>
>> but the four things "crap" is (among other things)
>> remain disparate.
>
> No.
>
> The Cheshire Kat

Then, why did you use two different verbs in the final clause of the 
following sentence, "Anyway, it's the WORD, whether spoken or written, which 
denotes and connotes?"

Later.  Although all this looks to be sizing up as A Majorissimus 
Dissertation (which I plan to take all the credit for), I gotta get to a 
column a deadline is hurrying into view for.

--Bob







From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 12:53:56 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:53:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Language Ennobled the Material" 
References: <200508201528.j7KFSbDm031733@mail11.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01c5a5a7$c1990680$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

A digression simply because it pushed one of my buttons:

> "Animals do not know they are going to die, and require no way to deal 
> with that implacable fact.

Who sez?  How can anyone know this?  What's the evidence say?

--Bob G.




From anny.ballardini  Sat Aug 20 13:03:30 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:03:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] my homework
Message-ID: <004501c5a5a9$177ef720$c2af3452@ANNY>

With my apologies to Sam Gwynn, but I had not time to go to the Galleria dell'Accademia to verify our Veronese, 

I gave an account on my blog of my visit to the Biennale - i Giardini, with several pics I took here and there,

Venice 

I went yesterday to Venice, about over an 8 hour trip by train from here (4+4) anyhow worth it. The Biennale was the main interest, since round the middle of November it will close and I cannot do as if I did not know it was there, as I did in the last years. That the Biennale was a disappointment as it is usually, it goes without saying - _Art_ is becoming video digital art, and here we have plenty of digital work - I was mad when I discovered a remake of the movie _Das Experiment_ that came out in 2001 by the excellent director Oliver Hirschbiegel. Or for example at the Great Britain pavilion they featured Gilbert and George, and I had seen their whole work on The New York Times about a week ago in marvelous slides. Anyhow I did not have the idea of the size of their new digital work based on immortality by depicting the leaf of the ginko, and their various self-portraits in distinct postures. I was pleasantly surprised by some good paintings by Francis Bacon, Ed Ruscha (I showed a pic above), a zigzagging series of quotations in neon lights by Jenny Holzer (also pic), an excellent composition by Bruce Nauman with a video on which a mime (woman) performs the orders of a male off-stage recorded voice, in front of the screen suspended in mid-air a chair with the sculpture of a head - maybe the most beautiful surrealist work of the entire exhibit. Chosen by Charlotte Day, the Australian pavilion features a thirty year old artist, Ricky Swallow, I did some pics of his minute work with wood, not because I consider it _Art_ but because I loved the craftsmanship behind it, what beautiful tender capacity he has with the chisel. Besides the artists I mentioned above, no other one caught my attention at the Giardini. I still have to visit the Arsenale where there should be about 50 other artists exhibited, that might come some other day.
We finally, on our way back, stopped at the Santa Maria della Salute. An imposing Basilica of which I got several interesting pictures. I am copying from my expensive Knopf Guide which I regularly forget at home:
In 1630, plague struck Venice, and more than a third of the population succumbed to the "black death". On October 22, while the people were still counting their dead, the Senate commissioned Longhena to Build a church in gratitude to the Virgin for bringing an end to the epidemic. The site of the new sanctuary was one of the finest in Venice, adjoining St. Mark's Basin. Its first stone was laid on April 1, 1631, before the Seignory had even chosen an architectural design from the various basilical and central models on offer. In the end, a central plan was decided upon, submitted by the 32 year old Baldassare Longhena, for whom this was to be the first major architectural commission. At that time, neither Bernini nor Borromini had yet undertaken any work of importance, so Longhena's project was entirely revolutionary, as he himself was the first to acknowledge. The effect was all the more striking in that his huge octagonal construction (which was covered in Istrian stone, crowned with two domes and flanked by a pair of campaniles) was made to rise out of such unassuming urban surroundings. On the outside of the building, half columns resting on massive pedestals and a gigantic staircase distinguished the main Palladian fa?ade from the seven other sides of the basic octagon. Inside, six chapels were clustered around the central space, which was crowned with a tall dome supported by eight enormous pillars. The second dome (over the choir) was built on a much smaller scale. At a later stage Longhena designed the high altar, which is brought to life with statues by Josse Le Court (1670). After the death of Longhena, his work was completed by Antonio Gaspari (1687); today, in addition to the sculptures by Bartolomeo Bon, Tullio Lombardo and Gianmaria Morleiter, the church also contains a large collection of paintings, such as Luca Giordano's Presentation of the Virgin at the Temple, Assumption of the Virgin and Birth of the Virgin. In the sacristy are Titian's The Pentecost, Saint Mark with Saint Como, Saint Damian, Saint Rich and Saint Sebastian, The Sacrifice of Abraham, David and Goliath and (on the ceiling - beautiful indeed - AB) Cain and Abel. Tintoretto is represented by his Wedding at Cana (1551) (an enormous canvas that occupies half the wall, the ladies seated on the long right side of the table are lightly illuminated and in graceful postures - AB) and Palma the Younger by a rendering of Jonas and Samson.
Out of curiosity, while looking on the index for Santa Maria della Salute, I realized how many churches there are in Venice for Saint Mary:
Cathedral of Santa Maria Assunta; Jesuist Church of Santa Maria Assunta; Church of Santa Maria dei Derelitti; Church of Santa Maria dei Miracoli; Church of Santa Maria dei Servi; Church of Santa Maria del Carmelo; Church of Santa Maria del Giglio; (Church of) Santa Maria dell'Arsenale; Santa Maria della Consolazione; Santa Maria della Carit?; Santa Maria della Fava, Santa Maria della Grazia o della Cavana; Santa Maria della Misericordia; Santa Maria della Visitazione; Santa Maria e San Donato; Santa Maria Elisabetta; Santa Maria Formosa; Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari; Santa Maria in Valverde; Santa Maria Maddalena; Santa Maria Mater Domini; Santa Maria Zobengo.


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche 
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From halvard  Sat Aug 20 13:12:02 2005
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:12:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0508200947ce2c57c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B5B@mail.emerson.edu>
	<731bb17a0508200947ce2c57c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54c17512e615f921697890b9c3c85a96@earthlink.net>


On Aug 20, 2005, at 12:47 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> By the way, I think there is an athiest anthology:? The Outlaw Bible 
> of American Poetry ;-)
> ?
> ?
> Cheers,
> ?
> Jeff Newberry


Declension: athiest, athiester, athiestest

Examples: "an athiest anthology"
                  "an athiester-than-thou attitude"
                  "the most athiestest guy I know"



Hal		"A discouraging number of reputable poets
                are sane beyond recall."
                                   --E. B. White
Halvard Johnson
================
email: halvard at earthlink.net
            halvard at gmail.com
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blogs:	 http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
    	        http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com




From anny.ballardini  Sat Aug 20 13:12:49 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:12:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] my homework
References: <004501c5a5a9$177ef720$c2af3452@ANNY>
Message-ID: <008401c5a5aa$647d8c20$c2af3452@ANNY>

Please read in my previous post:

I didn't have any time...

sorry, Anny
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From jeff.newberry  Sat Aug 20 13:28:45 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:28:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
In-Reply-To: <54c17512e615f921697890b9c3c85a96@earthlink.net>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B5B@mail.emerson.edu>
	<731bb17a0508200947ce2c57c@mail.gmail.com>
	<54c17512e615f921697890b9c3c85a96@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <731bb17a050820102853eaccec@mail.gmail.com>

Hal,
 Damn you to hell, you athiesterestablishmentarian!
 ;-)
 Jeff Newberry

 On 8/20/05, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote: 
> 
> 
> On Aug 20, 2005, at 12:47 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 
> > By the way, I think there is an athiest anthology: The Outlaw Bible
> > of American Poetry ;-)
> > 
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Jeff Newberry
> 
> 
> Declension: athiest, athiester, athiestest
> 
> Examples: "an athiest anthology"
> "an athiester-than-thou attitude"
> "the most athiestest guy I know"
> 
> 
> 
> Hal "A discouraging number of reputable poets
> are sane beyond recall."
> --E. B. White
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> halvard at gmail.com
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blogs: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 15:09:35 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:09:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] christer po (was: Poetry and religion)
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2D043E2B5B@mail.emerson.edu><731bb17a0508200947ce2c57c@mail.gmail.com>
	<54c17512e615f921697890b9c3c85a96@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00ed01c5a5ba$b522e430$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Declension: athiest, athiester, athiestest

Sorry, Hal, but wrong again: it's obviously athy, athier and athiest.

--Bob G.




From editor  Sat Aug 20 16:57:38 2005
From: editor (editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:57:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Foley Interview at The Argotist Online
Message-ID: <200508202057.j7KKvcvC023318@mail4.atl.registeredsite.com>

.  

Jack Foley, renowned poet and host of Cover to Cover on KPFA radio,  is  
interviewed  by  Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  at  The Argotist Online, 
edited by Jeffrey Side:  
.

http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Foley%20interview.htm  

. 

Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino  

http://eratio.blogspot.com/  

http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/    

.




From jeff.newberry  Sat Aug 20 17:38:29 2005
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:38:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paragraphs from Pound
Message-ID: <731bb17a050820143840f7acff@mail.gmail.com>

"Our life is, in so far as it is worth living, made up in great part of 
things indefinite, impalpable; and it is precisely because the arts present 
us these things that we?humanity?cannot get on without the arts. The picture 
that suggests indefinite poems, the line of verse that means a gallery of 
paintings, the modulation that suggests a score of metaphors and is 
contained in none: it is these things that touch us nearly that matter."

Ezra Pound, "I Gather the Limbs of Osiris"
*Selected Prose* *1909-1965*, New Directions: 1973
    Jeff Newberry

-- 
"Life is doubt, and faith without doubt is nothing but death."
--Miguel de Unamuno

Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/
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From bobgrumman  Sat Aug 20 18:15:28 2005
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:15:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Foley Interview at The Argotist Online
References: <200508202057.j7KKvcvC023318@mail4.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <017a01c5a5d4$ac30db60$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Nice job, Gregor

--Bob




From elemenope  Sun Aug 21 00:23:56 2005
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:23:56 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] 12. Re: Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz,
 lyric poetry (Uche Ogbuji)(Bob Grumman)
In-Reply-To: <200508200313.j7K3DIiT010239@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200508200313.j7K3DIiT010239@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100304bf2dad75e668@[204.215.201.220]>

>
>>
>>Message: 12
>>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:31:28 -0400
>>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz, lyric poetry
>>	(Uche Ogbuji)
>>
>>
>>>  That Abu G happened after Auschwitz means that it must exist in the
>>>  shadow of that great atrocity.
>
So did, say, the St. Valentine's Day Massacre, Castro's kidnapping of 
little Emelio with the aid of Janet Reno and his subsequent 
brainwashing, Reno's attack on the Waco Compound which burned alive 
screaming American Right Wing Christian kids, & The Tasmanian Devil's 
Defeat of Donald Duck.  These horrors sadly also came to light after 
Auschwitz in the runup to the nuking of Israel by the Mad Mullahs of 
KhoumeniLand in 2012 with nodding assent of the 
Don't-Hit-Us-We're-Not-Jewish RadLibs..

C'mon, man, you can do better than that.

By the way, would you, c, like to know exactly why Lyndy England 
acted out so meanly against the captives, not one of whom went to see 
the 72 virgins of their Allah except when they blew themselves up 
after they were released?  I'll tell you in a coming post, okay? 
This "Kent Johnson" never tells you in his closely reasoned and sung 
propaganda "poem" (that won him great acclaim in pre-terror bombed 
London) with a montage photo cover that implies that Abu G (except 
what went on there under the tutelage of Saddam Hussein) and 
Auschwitz are kissing cousins  This "Kent Johnson" doesn't know.  I 
know.  And you know how I know?  Because I live near Cumberland, 
Maryland and I know the bar she used to drink in.  And because I am 
in the American school of poetry established by Dr. William Carlos 
Williams I went and talked to people who know.  Unlike this "Kent 
Johnson" who wouldn't know an idea in a thing if he were standing on 
a stone and Dr. Johnson kicked it.
>
>>  And while some people would see that
>>>  while we can't change the past we can affect the future, engendering
>>>  an obligation to speak out even at lesser evils... there are others
>>>  like Richard Dillon, twisted by his cancerous ideology, that would use
>>>  the fact of Auschwitz to justify looking the other way at any cost to
>>  > support their sad cronies. Which is the sicker, more malicious spirit?
>>>
>>>  c
>>
>>What a pleasant characterization of Richard.  Thank goodness New-Poetry's
>>moderator keeps the courteousness of our posts at such a commendably high
>>level--except the times I happened to give my uncensored opinion of others
>>(but won't again).
>>
>>--Bob G.
>
>
>>sad cronies
>
>He was cribbing from Mr. Bales' North Korean website, Bob.  I think 
>I'll notify Kim Il Dim Nuko Sum's copyright attorney.  Perhaps, I'll 
>get a finder's fee.
>
>R i c h a r d  D i l l o n
>
>>
>>


-- 



From anny.ballardini  Sun Aug 21 10:44:50 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:44:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Language Ennobled the Material" 
References: <200508201528.j7KFSbDm031733@mail11.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <008301c5a65e$e25d7740$04ec3652@ANNY>


Intelligent food Gregory,

it is the terrible battle of love_attraction_hate_disgust that is staging on 
all the scenes. Beckett with his existentialism tried to smooth things down, 
it seems to me that now we are trying instead to make them revive again, 
maybe out of boredom and generally speaking.

>From a personal view my new and intermittent experience with my niece, a 
tiny being 16 months old, is all consuming. I find myself creating 
inexistent worlds, just mentally creating for the sake of beauty, while she 
is teaching me the acute perception of senses, the wonderful world of 
nonsense, the one of being here and only here, animal-like if you wish.

I remembered reading by Mair?ad Byrne:
"If my daughter knows how to laugh"
well that is it, how she can laugh, and make you laugh, just laugh. Isn't 
that something, with all the fullness of your lungs.

Cheers, Anny

From: <editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 5:28 PM


>.
>
> This is an excerpt from Roger Ebert's (sorry) response to a response (from
> the filmmakers) to his review for the movie Chaos:
>
>
> "What I miss in your film is any sense of hope. Sometimes it is all that
> keeps us going. The message of futility and despair in "Chaos" is
> unrelieved, and while I do not require a "happy ending," I do appreciate
> some kind of catharsis. As the Greeks understood tragedy, it exists not to
> bury us in death and dismay, but to help us to deal with it, to accept it 
> as a
> part of life, to learn about our own humanity from it. That is why the 
> Greek
> tragedies were poems: The language ennobled the material.
>
>
> "Animals do not know they are going to die, and require no way to deal
> with that implacable fact. Humans, who know we will die, have been given
> the consolations of art, myth, hope, science, religion, philosophy, and 
> even
> denial, even movies, to help us reconcile with that final fact. What I 
> object to
> most of all in "Chaos" is not the sadism, the brutality, the torture, the
> nihilism, but the absence of any alternative to them. If the world has 
> indeed
> become as evil as you think, then we need the redemptive power of artists,
> poets, philosophers and theologians more than ever.
>
>
> "Your answer, that the world is evil and therefore it is your 
> responsibility to
> reflect it, is no answer at all, but a surrender."
>
> .
>
> Just some food for thought.
>
>
> Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino
>
> .
>
> http://eratio.blogspot.com/
>
> http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/
>





From anny.ballardini  Sun Aug 21 10:47:55 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:47:55 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Language Ennobled the Material" 
References: <200508201528.j7KFSbDm031733@mail11.atl.registeredsite.com>
	<00bb01c5a5a7$c1990680$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <008801c5a65f$50ff26d0$04ec3652@ANNY>


You are not wrong Bob,

they say that cats when they are at the end look for their place to die. 
Which my cat did, she disappeared. And I went to look for her, and I found 
her, and I fed her, thus prolonging her agony.

Not a nice story. I should have known better. Maybe next time, hopefully,

Anny

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 6:53 PM


>A digression simply because it pushed one of my buttons:
>
>> "Animals do not know they are going to die, and require no way to deal 
>> with that implacable fact.
>
> Who sez?  How can anyone know this?  What's the evidence say?
>
> --Bob G.





From david.bircumshaw  Sun Aug 21 18:05:15 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:05:15 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birc's Song, "Victoria in Flowers"
References: <200508191600.j7JG05iT005022@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100302bf2bf2ced685@[204.215.201.221]>
Message-ID: <013e01c5a69c$7897cb10$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Why thank you, Richard, that is kind of you to say.

I'm interested in that you use the word 'song' in that the difference
between 'song lyric' and 'poem lyric' has struck me before - twice in the
past local rock bands have asked to write lyrics for them and I got
absolutely stymied as I couldn't write .
simple enough, so to speak, as 'song' requires.

Thoughtfood in that.

Best

dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" <elemenope at icubed.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:40 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birc's Song, "Victoria in Flowers"


> Can't argue with talent.  Talent speaks from within itself.  Although
> it may wander away and make me wonder why, talent like this is its
> own true purpose, like break dancing.
>
> R.D.
>
>
>
> >
> >Message: 4
> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:47:21 +0100
> >From: "David Bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Victoria in flowers
> >ext/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >Victoria in Flowers
> >
> >
> >It might have been the run
> >of them, or the angle
> >of the sun, but I wanted
> >to kiss every line
> >of cascade
> >
> >that melted from your breast.
> >Roses, peonies, chrysanths, how
> >they pealed from your tits
> >bonging 'love you, love you
> >true'. Ya daft bugger,
> >
> >
> >you beaut, ya soppy-head
> >who is as
> >stupid as me. But dressed
> >in flowers.
> >
> >
> >best
> >
> >Dave
> >
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From david.bircumshaw  Sun Aug 21 18:28:48 2005
From: david.bircumshaw (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:28:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin><002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<009101c5a5a2$e0526b70$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <014801c5a69f$c8f75370$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>

Anyhow, Hamilton, this might interest you. The other week I was showing
Lydia some poems I had come across by Alison Flett (who lives in Orkney). We
concurred that she is an absolute star. Lydia being Lydia she found that AF
has now got a 'proper book' out so she's ordered it - next idea is how we
can arrange to get her down to Leicester to read - plan is that Lydia will
put her up for a week, say. AF writes in modern Scots, and does it
beautifully. If you have a copy of 'Foil' you'll find her on page 138 et
seq. They are gems.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices


> > Suassure I've read about, then dismissed so thoroughly I can't remember
> what
> > he was talking about.  Sorry.
>
> K.  Let's leave that for later.  (I'm a Saussurean Fundamentalist, and
read
> the Course in General Linguistics the same way that a Bible Belt Christian
> reads the Old Testament.)
>
> > I would argue ...
>
> OK, let's unpick what you say.
>
> > I would argue that the thing "crap" is four letters on a page
>
> I'd agree the four letters, but what I'm seeing is on a computer screen,
not
> a page (implicitly, of paper).
>
> That's not just picky -- you could have moved to a (taxonomic) level of
> abstraction where the enscribing of "crap" written on a page, presented on
a
> computer screen or carved in granite are functionally (?) identical (and
> contrast to the aural manifestation of <crap>).  But saying "on a page"
both
> misrepresents what I see and selects a particular instance from a series.
> And you the taxonomist!  <g>
>
> OK, how about, "One aspect of <crap> is the visual manifestation of the
> letters."
>
> > that represent
> > a particular sound.
>
> No they don't, not a "particular" sound, if you mean by that one specific
> sound.  I bet I pronounce the "a" vowel differently from you, and as a
Scot,
> I'd roll the "r".
>
> Again, that might sound simply picky, but what you said there either
> misrepresents reality or begs more than several questions.
>
> Also "letters represent sounds" seems to me, per se, a little over-simple,
> even leaving aside our particular pronunciations.
>
> > Doesn't matter if it could be spelled "krap," too, with
> > the same result.
>
> Hm ...  Extend that and spell it "Krapp" -- the same sound (you and I may
> sound it differently but we'd both sound crap/krapp the same way).  Same
> result?  No way.
>
> > That it can be spelled with a "k" spoils my analogy a bit,
>
> It's simple homophone territory.  (Among other things.)  Unfortunately,
the
> very concept of a homophone complicates the visual/aural distinction
you're
> (are you?) trying to sustain.
>
> > But I'm just saying that the fact that some X must interact always with
> some
> > Y doesn't mean we CAN'T clearly distinguish the two taxonomically.
>
> K, I'll give you that, Bob, in the sense that a cat has (usually) four
legs
> and a tail, and we can tell them apart.
>
> What I'm more concerned with is the way that a -- how to put it? -- 'bare
> taxonomy' abolishes significant difference.  And failing to take account
of
> certain significant differences (stone, monitor, paper) -- the sweet
> particularity of things -- undermines the validity of the taxonomy.
>
> It turns, I think, on the level of abstraction that's chosen -- too
> specific, and you're describing rather than deploying a taxonomy, too
> general, and the taxonomy is flawed, platitudinous, misguided and
> misguiding.
>
> > I'd have to say that "crap" on the page is a spelling, a connoter, a
> > sound-indicater and a denoter.
>
> Ugh ...
>
> <crap>, whether as visual or an auditory signifier, both connotes and
> denotes.  And I'm not simply playing around -- on one level, the written
and
> the spoken versions of <crap> are parallel, so to separate them out on the
> same level as denotation and connotation is wrong.  Equally, denotation
and
> connotation are aspects of <crap> the sign.  Or do I mean signifier?
> Anyway, it's the WORD, whether spoken or written, which denotes and
> connotes.
>
> So to lump "spelling, a connoter, a sound-indicater and a denoter"
together
> as if they all existed on the same level seems to me ... simply wrong.
>
> > You can't change one without changing at
> > least one of the others,
>
> Yes
>
> > but the four things "crap" is (among other things)
> > remain disparate.
>
> No
>
> The Cheshire Kat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From schloss  Mon Aug 22 08:06:13 2005
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:06:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
Message-ID: <009b01c5a711$e5229a60$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
I'm arguing, or go on to argue, or try to argue, that ALTHOUGH form and
content are inextricably interrelated, they are STILL two entirely separate
things.  Like meaning and sound. [BG]
<snip>

I'm not sure it works that way. I think the two most common models of
communication, encoding/decoding and ostensive/inferential, both apply (and
probably overlap). We encode/decode when we move between print and speech,
say, but also when we use language denotatively. In this mode, *meaning* or
*content* is for most practical purposes _within_ the text in its auditory,
visual or orthographic form. Language is ostensive/inferential when it
gestures at things that require a cultural context or when it is connotative
and those connotations are at best only partially shared. Here the
container/content model breaks down: *meaning* is incomplete and is supplied
by reader or hearer.

To put all that more concretely, 'potatoe' on a blackboard simply *means*
potato. But consider this piece of nonsense: 'Mistress Frobisher did broil a
digitate potatoe in a girdle.' Because *meaning* here is not so easily
accessed odd things start to happen. Some of it is auditory: why does
'Frobisher' turn into 'Frobrisher' when one says it, for example? Some of it
is about register: the supererogatory e fits with the cod historicism of
'mistress' and 'did'. Some of it is semantic: '...toe' with the extra e
seems to amplify 'digitate'. And some effects are mixed. Should 'broil' be
'boil' (auditory/semantic ambiguity)? Should 'girdle' really be 'griddle'
(auditory/semantic ambiguity, plus inappropriate register)?

What I am trying to argue, not particularly well, is (a) that a form/content
distinction seems conceptually flawed and isn't too helpful in practice, and
(b) that something like the denotative/connotative distinction, albeit
fuzzy, allows one to conceive of elements within a text which act as
instructions to a reader or hearer on how to complete the text from outside.
And those elements do have a place in taxonomies. They can't be rejected as
'content'.

<snip>
Specifically, a single change in a text of a poem will have to change some
part of what might be called its text-map. Which would not be a primitive,
but would combine various maps that are primitives, such as various repeneme
maps, like a rhyme scheme, metrical scheme or simple syllable-per-line map.
[BG]
<snip>

I disagree with some of the detail (I'm not sure why maps must be tiered,
for example), but the broader point is important. Work has been done on the
schemas underlying metaphor. In principle, there will be far less latency in
how you interpret a clich? than in how you interpret something new. Much the
same applies, no doubt, to how we recognise a sonnet. Moreover a poet, any
author, becomes less *difficult* as you read more. So one's general
expectations are being sculpted in some way.

Of course, this hints at form v content again. Albeit more or less sub rosa.

CW





From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug 22 08:24:59 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:24:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin><002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009101c5a5a2$e0526b70$f29c9951@Robin>
	<00af01c5a5a7$6d719950$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <025301c5a714$84988620$f29c9951@Robin>

[[ Dear god, this post goes on and on and ON.  My apologies.  Anyone feel
free to leave now.  If you continue reading, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

There is however, right at the end, a separate "Digression on Crap", laying
out the development of the term -- anyone who is interested can skip the
dialogue and go straight to that.

I've left in more of the preceding posts than I'd like to, but I thought it
was probably better, on the remote chance that anyone was interested, to
have left in too much than to assume a reader who was familiar with what's
gone before.   R. ]]

> Marc--I mean, Robin, you're fulluvit.

Same to you with knobs on, Freddie.

> >> Suassure
>
> For all I know, I read him and AGREED with him so totally, I fogot all
about
> him.

No you didn't, or you wouldn't say some of the things you do.

> >> I would argue that the thing "crap" is four letters on a page
> >
> > I'd agree the four letters, but what I'm seeing is on a computer screen,
> > not
> > a page (implicitly, of paper).

        [SNIP]

> I think it IS hyper-picky.  One can always "unpick" a text the way you do

Not always. Your text begged to be unpicked, and hit some of my buttons.

> here.  So: letters on a ground which can be paper, etc.  And, sure, the
> medium can be expressive, too.

K -- but *you* were the one who said "words on a page".  Given what's at
issue, it was rather red-rag-to-a-bull.  In some contexts, OK, it's an
obvious shorthand, but ...  I think in this case, we have to be *very* clear
what we're deploying.  You could (though you didn't) have meant specifically
a word printed in a book.

> > OK, how about, "One aspect of <crap> is the visual manifestation of the
> > letters."
>
> That's good.

OK, we agree on that, then -- that we can separate *specific* instances of
visual manifestions of <crap> from the general sense of any visual
representation of it, and that this argument is turning (mostly) on the
latter.  (This is a bit like Saussure's distinction between PAROLE and
LANGUE -- individual linguistic utterences vs the language system.  Saussure
concentrates on the latter in the Course.)

> >> that represent
> >> a particular sound.
>
> > No they don't, not a "particular" sound, if you mean by that one
specific
> > sound.  I bet I pronounce the "a" vowel differently from you, and as a
> > Scot,
> > I'd roll the "r".
>
> Hyper-nit-pickery, I feel.  One particular sound for the text-maker, one
> particular sound for the . . . ensumer.  (See my blog entry for today).
Or
> one particular set of sounds, who cares?

I'll go with that -- the variety of soundings of <crap> subsumed in a
general focus, and it's legitimate to abstract at this level.  (With
qualifications.)

On one level, this is a simple parallel to the visual discussion above -- 
the various noises we differently make nevertheless all manifest the term
<crap>.

But it also draws in, *on top of this*, the relation between writing and
speech.  You seem to think this is unproblematic, I don't.

> > Again, that might sound simply picky, but what you said there either
> > misrepresents reality or begs more than several questions.
> >
> > Also "letters represent sounds" seems to me, per se, a little
over-simple,
> > even leaving aside our particular pronunciations.

Ouch.  I don't think I can do this without using Saussurean terminology ...

        The problem with the written word ...

>From one angle, letters-making-up-words ("crap") could be seen as
representing the spoken sound of the term.  ("I say tomato, you say
tomato.")

But from another perspective, the written <crap> and the spoken <crap> are
*alternative* ways of presenting one component of the sign -- each are
signifiers.

One way, the written is a reflection of the spoken and is subordinate
to it; another, they stand beside each other.  Either the written or the
spoken can function as the token (?).  Different, but from this angle, both
tokens.

These truths coexist.

The written manifestation of <crap> can exist in different
ways -- handwritten (printing or joined-up writing), printed in a book, on a
monitor, carved in marble.  Doesn't, on one level, matter.

And in your terms, Bob, would be the object of another level of taxonomy?

Similarly, the spoken <crap> can be mumbled, shouted, Grummondised or
trilled in a Scottish accent -- still the same <crap>.

OK, I have no problem with agreeing that we can deal with this on a
certain level of abstraction.

So there are two areas of abstraction -- one for the particular
manifestations of the spoken word, and another for the written, which can be
reduced to "spoken" and "written".

But this crosses with the way in which the written word depends on the
spoken word.  (Or does it?)  Sometimes.  But by the very fact that it's
written, begins to gain an autonomy.

        [SNIP]

> > It's simple homophone territory.  (Among other things.)  Unfortunately,
> > the
> > very concept of a homophone complicates the visual/aural distinction
> > you're
> > (are you?) trying to sustain.
>
> Why?  "Sea" and "see" have the same sound but look different.  They share
> one aspect, they fail to share a second.

"Sea" and "see" DON'T 'have the same sound'.  They're visual enscriptions,
which may *represent* a sound, but that's quite different from ascribing a
sound as such to a visual phenomenon.

Also, more importantly, when written, "sea" and "see" present a distinctive
difference which simply isn't present when <sea> and <see> are spoken.  (I'm
leaving context aside, which is why we don't really get confused.  Often.)

What I'm rather confusedly trying to say is that you seem to me to jump
rather too easily between the visual and the aural, blithly ignoring the
problematics around this.  "It'll all come out in the taxonomy."

> > K, I'll give you that, Bob, in the sense that a cat has (usually) four
> > legs
> > and a tail, and we can tell them apart.
>
> More a cat has a color and a shape.  A cat with no color would have no
> shape.

Actually, I'm not sure.  You could stroke an hypothetically invisible cat
and feel the outline, the shape.  Locke's Primary and Secondary Qualities.

> That's not quite what I mean, either, actually.  I'm talking about
> attributes that are inseparable but distinguishable, anyway.

> > What I'm more concerned with is the way that a -- how to put it? -- 
'bare
> > taxonomy' abolishes significant difference.  And failing to take account
> > of
> > certain significant differences (stone, monitor, paper) -- the sweet
> > particularity of things -- undermines the validity of the taxonomy.
>
> I simply don't see it.  The significant "ignored" differences can be the
> basis of another taxonomy or another layer of a toing taxonomy.

All right, I'll go with that in this context.  But I still think that the
so-to-speak 'bare taxonomy' covers-up a set of problematics that I've poked
at above.

> Should we
> drop "alliteration" as a class of poetic device because it ignores the
> significant difference between the bad/bug alliteration and the crazy/cat
> alliteration?

No

> > It turns, I think, on the level of abstraction that's chosen -- too
> > specific, and you're describing rather than deploying a taxonomy, too
> > general, and the taxonomy is flawed, platitudinous, misguided and
> > misguiding.
>
> Sure.  So you start as general as possible, and work your way down.

Yup.  Although "as general as *possible* [sic]" -- there's still an element
of choice/arbitrariness in picking the starting-point.

> > the spoken versions of <crap> are parallel, so to separate them out on
the
> > same level as denotation and connotation is wrong.  Equally, denotation
> > and
> > connotation are aspects of <crap> the sign.  Or do I mean signifier?
>
> I don't see where this "on the same level" comes in.

This is straying from poetics into linguistics (and rather naive Saussurean
linguistics on my part, at that).

By "on the same level", I mean you can have either sound |
donotation/connotation OR visual | donotation/connotation.  I'm not even
sure you *can* have both "sound" and "visual" at the same time in this
context.  You either say it or write it.  Well, I suppose when you read it
aloud ...

Anyway, what I meant was including "spelling, a connoter, a sound-indicater
and a denoter" in the same box is lumping apples and oranges together.  I'm
assuming you intend "spelling" to be something different from
"sound-indicator", and the later directing to noise.

Or am I misunderstanding you here?

> If we catalogue
> objects of a certain size or larger in the solar system into stars,
planets,
> satellites, asteroids and comets, are we saying they are all equally
> important?

Not relevant -- the above are all the same nature, a subset of the set
"physical objects".  Not the case with visual versus aural.  One is not a
subset of the other, though they each may be subsets of a larger set -- 
signifiers?

[Not for the first time, I wish it were possible to include Venn diagrams in
an email.]

(That "stars" threw me a little -- I thought for a moment I'd missed
something, a new star in the solar system, but you mean the Sun, I suppose.
Bit ambiguously put, if I may say so.  <g>)

> > Anyway, it's the WORD, whether spoken or written, which denotes and
> > connotes.
>
> Yes, but the word is also its letters (and, maybe, punctuation marks).

I'm not sure where punctuation marks come in here, unless you mean
apostrophes.  In which case, you *really* worded this badly.  I'd assumed
you meant commas, colons, full-stops, etc., at first.

Confused from Glasgow.

            [SNIP]

> Then, why did you use two different verbs in the final clause of the
> following sentence, "Anyway, it's the WORD, whether spoken or written,
which
> denotes and connotes?"

See above -- I've tried to explain this.  Mibee it's still not clear ...

I'm not -- am I crazy? -- arguing an *identity* between the written and the
spoken word.  What I'm saying is that on +one+ level, they're synonyms or
alternatives.

Would it help if I couched it in adjectival terms?

        "It's the WORD (spoken/written) which denotes and connotes."

> Later.  Although all this looks to be sizing up as A Majorissimus
> Dissertation (which I plan to take all the credit for),

Well, at least credit me in a footnote when the time comes.  Or do I really
want to be associated with your project?  <g>

Robin

                                       A DIGRESSION ON CRAP

I started with the OED but came on this, which is singularly lucid and to
the point:

Online Etymological Dictionary
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=crap&searchmode=none

CRAP

"defecate" 1846 (v.), 1898 (n.), from one of a cluster of words generally
applied to things cast off or discarded (e.g. "weeds growing among corn"
(1425), "residue from renderings" (1490s), 18c. underworld slang for
"money," and in Shropshire, "dregs of beer or ale"), all probably from M.E.
crappe "grain that was trodden underfoot in a barn, chaff" (c.1440), from
M.Fr. crape "siftings," from O.Fr. crappe, from M.L. crappa, crapinum
"chaff." Sense of "rubbish, nonsense" also first recorded 1898. Despite folk
etymology insistence, not from Thomas Crapper (1837-1910) who did, however,
in 1882 invented the ball and suction device [British Patent # 4,990] found
in modern toilets. The name Crapper is a northern form of Cropper (attested
from 1221), an occupational surname, obviously, but the exact reference is
unclear.

    ****

[Note the "crap" = gallows above.  The OED gives this a separate entry.
Derivation from Dutch "krap", cramp, clamp, clasp.  Not, as is sometimes
argued, because the gallows crop the man.  That's folk etymology, folks.]

It's curious (to me) just how *late* the current predominant sense of the
term (excrement/bullshit) is first recorded -- 1846 as a verb, 1898 as a
noun.  Also the spelling seems unusually stable -- the OED records only the
forms "crap" and "crappe".  [+Krapps Last Tape+, while I think relevant to
what Bob and I were chewing over earlier, doesn't fall within the purview of
a dictionary.]

>From the OED2[3] ...  I'll give the OED definition, followed by the date of
the first recorded occurrence there.

CRAP (n)

1. The husk of grain; chaff. Obs.  [1440 -- now obsolete]

2. A name of some plants:  a. Buckwheat.  b. Applied locally to various
weeds growing among corn, as Darnel, Rye-grass, Charlock. [1424]

 3. The residue formed in rendering, boiling, or melting fat; cracklings,
graves; hence crap-cake, tallow-craps. In this sense it varies with scraps.
(Usually in pl.) [1490]

 4. 'The dregs of beer or ale' (Halliwell). [1879]

 5. Money. slang or dial. [A cant use of some of the prec. senses, or of
F. crape dirt: cf. 'dust'.] [1700]

6. A scrap: perh. due to confusion of the words. [1515]

 7. a. coarse slang. Excrement; defecation. Also Comb., as crap-house, a
privy. [1898]

    b. transf. Rubbish, nonsense; something (occas. someone) worthless,
inferior or disgusting. slang. [1898]

              *******

Just to cross the i's and dot the t's, I nicked across to the Early Modern
English Dictionary Database to see what was there.  Not much relevant -- the
crap = plant appears:

(11) Cotgrave (Cotgrave 1611 @ 27991669)

Basinets: [m.] [The flower Crowfoot, King-cob, gold crap, yellow craw,
butter flower ...

    ... but I was reminded of the set crapulent/crapulous.  Completely
independent origin from "crap", oddly enough:

OED:   Crapulent

 [ad. L. crapulent-us very much intoxicated, f. crapula: see above, and cf.
vinolentus, violentus.]

   1. Of or pertaining to crapulence; suffering from excessive drinking,
eating, etc.

EMEDD:

   (7) Florio (Florio 1598 @ 16343648)

Crapula, Crapola, surfeit, excesse, gor? mandizing, or gulletting.

   (8) Florio (Florio 1598 @ 16343794)

Crapulare, Crapolare, to surfeit, to gor? mandize, to commit excesse in meat
and drinke.

   (9) Florio (Florio 1598 @ 16343962)

Crapulatore, a surfeiter, a gormand, a glutton, a gullie-gut.

   (25) Blount (Blount 1656 @ 42229103)

Crapulent [(crapulentus)] surfeiting or oppressed with surfeit.

    ************

            Hey, this is fun!!!  Anyone out there still with me?  No?  Oh,
well ...

R.














From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug 22 08:51:03 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:51:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Question on Poetic Devices
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin><002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009101c5a5a2$e0526b70$f29c9951@Robin>
	<014801c5a69f$c8f75370$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
Message-ID: <028601c5a718$28649020$f29c9951@Robin>

> Anyhow, Hamilton, this might interest you. The other week I was showing
> Lydia some poems I had come across by Alison Flett (who lives in Orkney).

I don't know her work, dave -- have to chase it.  Is she any relation to
George Mackay Brown?

> We
> concurred that she is an absolute star. Lydia being Lydia she found that
AF
> has now got a 'proper book' out so she's ordered it - next idea is how we
> can arrange to get her down to Leicester to read - plan is that Lydia will
> put her up for a week, say. AF writes in modern Scots, and does it
> beautifully.

If she does a reading at Leicester, I'll try and attend.  But then, you know
...

        :-(

> If you have a copy of 'Foil' you'll find her on page 138 et
> seq. They are gems.

I don't.  Don't suppose you could scan them for me?

Robin





From JforJames  Mon Aug 22 10:37:46 2005
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:37:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paragraphs from Pound
Message-ID: <fc.19ce949d.303b3d3a@aol.com>

Good one, Ezra (gratia Jeff). Anny, I vote for this to be in Why Poetry 
Exists...
Finnegan

In a message dated 8/20/2005 5:38:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes:
"Our life is, in so far as it is worth living, made up in great part of 
things indefinite, impalpable; and it is precisely because the arts present us 
these things that we?humanity?cannot get on without the arts. The picture that 
suggests indefinite poems, the line of verse that means a gallery of paintings, 
the modulation that suggests a score of metaphors and is contained in none: it 
is these things that touch us nearly that matter." 

Ezra Pound, "I Gather the Limbs of Osiris"
Selected Prose 1909-1965, New Directions: 1973
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From robin.hamilton2  Mon Aug 22 10:41:41 2005
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:41:41 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feed Ma Lamz -- was Alison Flett
References: <20c.70f74e2.3031e869@cs.com><008901c5a1df$2b7e65d0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004f01c5a1f0$7f939ad0$0300a8c0@Schloss><010e01c5a1f7$79dd56b0$38b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c5a241$8548ec90$0300a8c0@Schloss><001301c5a24f$054bb190$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><003101c5a269$a8020e60$0300a8c0@Schloss><005501c5a2b9$29e23ff0$2fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002801c5a312$6c4b9a40$0300a8c0@Schloss><001501c5a36b$b71f5800$83ecff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v><007c01c5a51a$8db80fb0$0300a8c0@Schloss><016801c5a526$5669c600$71b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004701c5a535$89cb77f0$f29c9951@Robin><000e01c5a581$e213f490$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004801c5a585$545f1cc0$f29c9951@Robin><002f01c5a598$7a849b10$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009101c5a5a2$e0526b70$f29c9951@Robin><014801c5a69f$c8f75370$78e8ff3e@rayuv8pcloxi9v>
	<028601c5a718$28649020$f29c9951@Robin>
Message-ID: <030101c5a727$9eb0d7c0$f29c9951@Robin>

> > Anyhow, Hamilton, this might interest you. The other week I was showing
> > Lydia some poems I had come across by Alison Flett (who lives in
Orkney).
>
> I don't know her work, dave -- have to chase it.  Is she any relation to
> George Mackay Brown?

While poking around looking for poems by Alison Flett (found two so far -- 
she was brought up in Edinburgh, apparently, but the two I've come on so far
sound Glasgow to my ear.  Certainly not Orkney) I found this.  Didn't
know it was on the Web.

Contribution to the religious poetry thread?

                    Feed Ma Lamz

Amyir gaffirz Gaffir. Hark.

       nay fornirz ur communists
       nay langwij
       nay lip
       nay laffin ina Sunday
       nay g.b.h. (septina war)
       nay nooky huntin
       nay tea-leaven
       nay chanty rasslin
       nay nooky huntin nix doar
       nur kuvtin their ox

Oaky doaky. Stick way it
- rahl burn thi lohta yiz.

? Tom Leonard,
from Intimate Voices (Etruscan Books Devon)
Poem supplied by The Scottish Poetry Library

http://www.scottisharts.org.uk/1/artsinscotland/scots/poemofthemonth/archive/poemjuly2005.aspx

Robin





From anny.ballardini  Mon Aug 22 11:10:43 2005
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:10:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paragraphs from Pound
References: <fc.19ce949d.303b3d3a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003601c5a72b$aaec1c80$72af3852@ANNY>

Thank you James, I already put it online yesterday:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1289

thanks to Jeff, till soon Anny
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:37 PM


  Good one, Ezra (gratia Jeff). Anny, I vote for this to be in Why Poetry Exists...
  Finnegan

  In a message dated 8/20/2005 5:38:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes:
    "Our life is, in so far as it is worth living, made up in great part of things indefinite, impalpable; and it is precisely because the arts present us these things that we?humanity?cannot get on without the arts. The picture that suggests indefinite poems, the line of verse that means a gallery of paintings, the modulation that suggests a score of metaphors and is contained in none: it is these things that touch us nearly that matter." 

    Ezra Pound, "I Gather the Limbs of Osiris"
    Selected Prose 1909-1965, New Directions: 1973


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From marcus  Mon Aug 22 12:03:21 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:03:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 12. Re: Re: Abu Ghraib, Auschwitz,
	lyric poetry (Uche Ogbuji)(Bob Grumman)
In-Reply-To: <a05100304bf2dad75e668@[204.215.201.220]>
References: <200508200313.j7K3DIiT010239@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <4309BF09.4779.7EEF1@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2005 at 12:23, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
> >He was cribbing from Mr. Bales' North Korean website ...<<

How does this become my website, Mr Elemenope? Because I referred 
to it? Well, if that's the standard, then now it's YOUR website, since 
YOU referred to it. You'll have to do better than that!

But Elemenope is right that calling him "a malicious spirit" is name-
calling. Of course, since he holds a political opinion contrary to that of 
most people, and the moderator, of this list, the moderator lets people 
get away with it. You can't really call that hypocrisy since the moderator 
has never made any claims that he tries to be fair -- only that he tries to 
follow the likes and dislikes of what he perceives as the majority opinion 
here, to the extent he can gauge it.

Marcus







From marcus  Mon Aug 22 12:03:21 2005
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:03:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Language Ennobled the Material" 
In-Reply-To: <200508201528.j7KFSbDm031733@mail11.atl.registeredsite.com>
Message-ID: <4309BF09.31376.7ED9A@localhost>

Roger Ebert wrote:
> "Your answer, that the world is evil and therefore it is your responsibility to 
> reflect it, is no answer at all, but a surrender."  

Just so; just as, for example, poets who say that since human life is 
unitelligible their poetry should be unintelligible are equally wrong.

Marcus






From rog3r.day  Mon Aug 22 12:56:09 2005
From: rog3r.day (Roger Day)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:56:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Language Ennobled the Material"
In-Reply-To: <4309BF09.31376.7ED9A@localhost>
References: <200508201528.j7KFSbDm031733@mail11.atl.registeredsite.com>
	<4309BF09.31376.7ED9A@localhost>
Message-ID: <fde50348050822095669968f66@mail.gmail.com>

Please, don't feed the trolls.

Roger

On 8/22/05, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> Roger Ebert wrote:
> > "Your answer, that the world is evil and therefore it is your responsibility to
> > reflect it, is no answer at all, but a surrender."
> 
> Just so; just as, for example, poets who say that since human life is
> unitelligible their poetry should be unintelligible are equally wrong.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
http://www.badstep.net




From JforJames  Mon Aug 22 13:00