From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 1 01:33:55 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:33:55 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] theoretical deductions References: <1ef.38f99d18.2f7dd858@aol.com> Message-ID: <003c01c53684$c7ddc4f0$41aa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Mill, I think that for Siberia you will have to add one hour of the clock. Do they really have such a lugubrious humor? I remember I used to like the English one, which makes me a potential victim of the mis-interpretation of things. Thanks for reading me. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 12:48 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] theoretical deductions Anny, Maybe I am not in the "secret" club, but I often do not understand your postings, and I have been a member of this group for years. I think, perhaps, portions of your notes or what has been written in answer to other notes, has been deleted or, darn it, I just miss the point. For the most part, even without a double Ph.D. I am able to follow the "threads," but yours sometimes seem to come out of Siberia. Pardon my stupidity. Just my two cents-- Back to lurking. Mill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 1 02:28:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:28:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Austerity Principle, + Message-ID: <00bf01c5368c$7039e190$41aa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> By Frederick Pollack The Austerity Principle A bugle, absurd but traditional, and we're up and being counted, then marched some distance from our ragged tents to form a ragged line. He reviews, and I've no idea how he does it - for one guy a joke at the expense of everything, for another insults, for me the appearance of reason; but we're all, for the moment, primed. Behind him are tree stumps, towns that are no longer even places, dead earth. Yet the line of horizons and hills makes me think This was a pretty country, I should have come here before or instead of the war. Who Is Your Audience? It's a cat street. Dogs, those collaborators misled by a promise of fun, will come out to crap later. Salvadoreans excavate yards, jackhammer - what is the function of all that hay? A nanny pushes one of those squat, padded vehicles. Small, shingled, former workers' houses, now almost metaphysically pricey; their lime-green, yellow and flags, in the vacancy of a Tuesday, not keeping at bay the month's homogenizing spring gray. Two cats circumnavigate basement windows; stop, dazzled as ever by the Idea. A Mylar balloon with a purple rabbit bends its string. Last week at the Zoo, the giraffe's long blue tongue licking, in sequence, its nostrils; its fey glance, all pupil; its strange sign, Not considered endangered. The octopus enjoying being splashed at the top of her tank; the hippo not moving; the lion moving along the edge of his moat - his cough subsonic, bellyheard: This isn't over yet. The ape, completely affectless. The Komodo dragon tasting the air and saying as clear as anything, Forms change; evolution means preparedness. The coming summer will exceed all expectations. You die and die and die and then you rule. _________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 1 07:44:20 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 07:44:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] O Hitchcock! Were you alive at this hour! In-Reply-To: References: <424C2048.1799.55B5FB@localhost> Message-ID: <424CFBD4.25632.119F40@localhost> > >On 31 Mar 2005 at 15:28, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > >> This is about the usurpation of what is called "Democracy," as per > >> the Constitution of 1789. ... David Graham believes, apparently, > >> along with Leonard Cohen, that "Democracy" hasn't existed in > >> America. I believe that it's there in the Constitution of 1789 ... > >> << Marcus Bales wrote: > >This is, of course, the Constitution without the Bill of Rights -- > >Richard doesn't like the Bill of Rights. On 31 Mar 2005 at 23:57, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Huh? > Did he bother to read the posts? Yes, I read them carefully and noted your careful exemption of the Bill of Rights from the Constitution by your constant reference to "The Constitution of 1789". The Bill of Rights wasn't adopted until December of 1791. In my experience people with your views usually have a whole list of things they think are unconstitutional based on a "literal interpretation" of the Constitution, and often leaving out not only the original ten amendments that form the Bill of Rights, but many others, as well. It is precisely because you say you hold the views you hold that I pointed out that you're carefully saying you want the "Constitution of 1789" and NOT the Constitution of 1791, which includes the ten amendments that form the Bill of Rights. Clearly, your care in talking about 1789 means that in your view there is no need for any of the amendments to the Constitution, not even the first ten. Marcus From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 08:45:49 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:45:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] O Hitchcock! Were you alive at this hour! In-Reply-To: References: <424C2048.1799.55B5FB@localhost> Message-ID: <731bb17a05040105453e19ab41@mail.gmail.com> On Mar 31, 2005 10:57 AM, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Verosopathic Bales > caught pinned and wriggling > unloved and sniggling > spitting his own nails. > And meet him in the parking lot behind the gym at 3:15, Marcus, after 6th period. And bring your lunch money! Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah!!!! Who said something earlier about an argument fit for grown-ups? Sheesh. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 1 10:58:53 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:58:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] It's Here: 'National Poetry Month', kickoff with Kevin Young Message-ID: <1c5.250ec404.2f7ec9bd@aol.com> Welcome to April and the fifth annual Knopf Poem-a-Day mailing. We will be sending you poems through the wires (and wireless) every day this month. Each day you will receive one poem or multiple poems, links to hear poets reading their work, additional commentaries, and much more. We hope you enjoy the selections. Please visit us on the Knopf Poet's Forum to share your responses with other readers, and to pick up some of our ideas about what to do with these e-mails if you are a bookseller, teacher, or a poetry enthusiast who wants to spread the word. You're welcome?and encouraged?to forward these emails on to friends. We begin with a poem from BLACK MARIA: Poems Produced and Directed by Kevin Young, a film noir in verse published in February 2005. Readers of Kevin Young's JELLY ROLL: A Blues (now in paperback) will recognize his approach?a playful poetic riff on a vital American art form. This selection begins with a voiceover that recurs throughout the collection, and then leads into "The Hunch," in which the private eye A.K.A. Jones, whose adventures the book details, encounters his femme fatale, the chanteuse Delilah Redbone. After the poem, you will find a note from the book's designer and related links, including five audio clips of Kevin Young reading aloud from BLACK MARIA. *************************************** Black Maria {Rhymes with Pariah} slang meaning a police wagon or hearse ************************************** Voice over (reel one) Boy meets girl. Girl meets The City. Nights she sings for her supper under the stage name Delilah Redbone; days she avoids the super, and the casting couch. Boy and girl rendezvous: his place, her place, a no-tell motel, who can tell. Aliases and ambushes. Throughout, a hint of crime, or at least a world in which everyone's a suspect. Is she too good (or bad) to be believed? Can anyone be believed? Stay tuned. ************************************* The Hunch She wore red like a razor ? cut quite a figure standing there, her slender danger dividing day from night, there from here. Where I hoped to be is near her & her fragrant, flammable hair ? words like always entering my mouth that once only gargled doubt. You see, I been used before like a car? Between us, this sweating, a grandfather clock's steady tick, soundtrack of saxophones sighing. It's been too long ? a whole week since love burned me like rye. I had begun to see the glass as never empty & that scared me. She fills me like the lake fills a canoe ? no rescue ? & to swim I never learned how. ************************************** >From BLACK MARIA by Kevin Young. Copyright ? 2005 by Kevin Young. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** A note from the book designer: "This book is different from others because it essentially has two covers: a jacket and a cover over the cardboard casing underneath, rather than the standard cloth binding of a hardcover. The typographic style of the jacket and interior were inspired by Kevin Young's world of film noir.Through the bullet-hole die cut jacket, the viewer sees Richie Fahey's color illustration, which depicts the femme fatale, Delilah Redbone on the preprinted case. And a black maria police wagon graces the reverse side." ?Gabriele Wilson, book designer for BLACK MARIA View the cover of BLACK MARIA here. *************************************** Listen to Kevin Young read poems aloud from BLACK MARIA: "The Set Up" http://www.aaknopf.com/enewsletter/poetry/audio/theSetup.mp3 "The Grift" http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8g0DXKYc0Wa0dvs0EV "Stills (My Head Hard)" http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8g0DXKYc0Wa0dvt0EW "The Pawn" http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8g0DXKYc0Wa0dvu0EX "The Props" http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8g0DXKYc0Wa0dvv0EY *************************************** Related links: About BLACK MARIA: http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?1400042097 About Kevin Young: http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=36118 Read a review of BLACK MARIA: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8g0DXKYc0Wa0dUu0Ey Discuss "The Hunch" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://www.aaknopf.com/poetry/forum Listen to Kevin Young discuss BLACK MARIA on NPR's Morning Edition http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8g0DXKYc0Wa0dUv0Ez *************************************** You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Fri Apr 1 11:15:45 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:15:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Austerity Principle, + In-Reply-To: <00bf01c5368c$7039e190$41aa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <00bf01c5368c$7039e190$41aa3852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: WOW. Damn. This does it for me. Thanks, Anny. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: > By Frederick Pollack > > The Austerity Principle > > > > > > A bugle, absurd but traditional, and > > we're up and being counted, then > > marched some distance from our ragged tents > > to form a ragged line. He reviews, > > and I've no idea how > > he does it - for one guy a > > joke at the expense > > of everything, for another > > insults, for me the appearance > > of reason; but we're all, for the moment, primed. > > > > Behind him are tree stumps, towns that are > > no longer even places, > > dead earth. Yet the line > > of horizons and hills makes me think > > This was a pretty country, I should have come here > > before or instead of > > the war. > > > > Who Is Your Audience? > > > > > > It's a cat street. Dogs, those collaborators > > misled by a promise of fun, will > > come out to crap later. Salvadoreans > > excavate yards, jackhammer - > > what is the function of all > > that hay? A nanny > > pushes one of those squat, padded > > vehicles. Small, shingled, former workers' > > houses, now almost metaphysically > > pricey; their lime-green, yellow and > > flags, in the vacancy of > > a Tuesday, not keeping at bay > > the month's homogenizing spring > > gray. Two cats > > circumnavigate basement windows; stop, > > dazzled as ever by > > the Idea. A Mylar > > balloon with a purple rabbit bends its string. > > > > Last week at the Zoo, the giraffe's long blue > > tongue licking, in sequence, its nostrils; > > its fey glance, all pupil; > > its strange sign, Not considered endangered. > > The octopus enjoying being > > splashed at the top of her tank; the hippo > > not moving; the lion moving > > along the edge of his moat - > > his cough subsonic, bellyheard: > > This isn't over yet. > > The ape, completely affectless. The Komodo > > dragon tasting the air and saying > > as clear as anything, Forms > > change; evolution means > > preparedness. The coming > > summer will exceed all expectations. > > You die and die and die and then you rule. > > > _________________________________________ > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Fri Apr 1 13:34:12 2005 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:34:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh In-Reply-To: <3445382.1112307058005.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050401123145.010ae160@cyrus.undsmhs.net> The February 28th issue of the _New Yorker_ has a good article on the Einstein - Goedel friendship and the tragedy of Goedel's life and end. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Apr 1 08:05:20 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 07:05:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh In-Reply-To: <3445382.1112307058005.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: And don?t forget Heisenberg and his Uncertainty Principle. Paul Lake On 3/31/05 4:10 PM, "Mike Snider" wrote: > Godel and Einstein both were bothered by the way their theories were used > outside of physics. > > The NYT puts everything older than a couple of days in a for-pay archive, so I > can;t link, but I've got a copy: > > Clipped from > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/14/arts/14conn.html?ei=5070&en=b867f14fc45242c2 > &ex=1109221200&pagewanted=print&position= : > > February 14, 2005 > CONNECTIONS > > Truth, Incompleteness and the G?delian Way > By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN > > > r.gif ?elativity. Incompleteness. Uncertainty. > > Is there a more powerful modern Trinity? These reigning deities proclaim > humanity's inability to thoroughly explain the world. They have been the > touchstones of modernity, their presence an unwelcome burden at first, and > later, in the name of postmodernism, welcome company. > > Their rule has also been affirmed by their once-sworn enemy: science. Three > major discoveries in the 20th century even took on their names. Albert > Einstein's famous Theory (Relativity), Kurt G?del's famous Theorem > (Incompleteness) and Werner Heisenberg's famous Principle (Uncertainty) > declared that, henceforth, even science would be postmodern. > > Or so it has seemed. But as Rebecca Goldstein points out in her elegant new > book, "Incompleteness: The Proof and Paradox of Kurt G?del" (Atlas Books; > Norton), of these three figures, only Heisenberg might have agreed with this > characterization. > > His uncertainty principle specified the inability to be too exact about small > particles. "The idea of an objective real world whose smallest parts exist > objectively," he wrote, "is impossible." Oddly, his allegiance to an absolute > state, Nazi Germany, remained unquestioned even as his belief in absolute > knowledge was quashed. > > Einstein and G?del had precisely the opposite perspective. Both fled the > Nazis, both ended up in Princeton, N.J., at the Institute for Advanced Study, > and both objected to notions of relativism and incompleteness outside their > work. They fled the politically absolute, but believed in its scientific > possibility. > > And therein lies Ms. Goldstein's tale. From the late 1930's until Einstein's > death in 1955, Einstein and G?del, the physicist and the mathematician, would > take long walks, finding companionship in each other's ideas. Late in his > life, in fact, Einstein said he would go to his office just to have the > "privilege" of walking with G?del. What was their common ground? In Ms. > Goldstein's interpretation, they both felt marginalized, "disaffected and > dismissed in profoundly similar ways." Both thought that their work was being > invoked to support unacceptable positions. > > Einstein's convictions are fairly well known. He objected to quantum physics > and its probabilistic clouds. God, he famously asserted, does not play dice. > Also, he believed, not everything depends on the perspective of the observer. > Relativity doesn't imply relativism. > > The conservative beliefs of an aging revolutionary? Perhaps, but Einstein > really was a kind of Platonist: He paid tribute to science's liberating > ability to understand what he called the "extra-personal world." > > And G?del? Most lay readers probably know of him from Douglas R. Hofstadter's > playful best-seller "G?del, Escher, Bach," a book that is more about the > powers of self-referentiality than about the limits of knowledge. But the > latter is the more standard association. "If you have heard of him," Ms. > Goldstein writes, perhaps too cautiously, "then there is a good chance that, > through no fault of your own, you associate him with the sorts of ideas - > subversively hostile to the enterprises of rationality, objectivity, truth - > that he not only vehemently rejected but thought he had conclusively, > mathematically, discredited." > > Ms. Goldstein's interpretation differs in some respects from that of another > recent book about G?del, "A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of G?del > and Einstein" by Palle Yourgrau (Basic), which sees him as more of an > iconoclastic visionary. But in both he is portrayed as someone widely > misunderstood, with good reason perhaps, given his work's difficulty. > > Before G?del's incompleteness theorem was published in 1931, it was believed > that not only was everything proven by mathematics true, but also that within > its conceptual universe everything true could be proven. Mathematics is thus > complete: nothing true is beyond its reach. G?del shattered that dream. He > showed that there were true statements in certain mathematical systems that > could not be proven. And he did this with astonishing sleight of hand, > producing a mathematical assertion that was both true and unprovable. > > It is difficult to overstate the impact of his theorem and the possibilities > that opened up from G?del's extraordinary methods, in which he discovered a > way for mathematics to talk about itself. (Ms. Goldstein compares it to a > painting that could also explain the principles of aesthetics.) > > The theorem has generally been understood negatively because it asserts that > there are limits to mathematics' powers. It shows that certain formal systems > cannot accomplish what their creators hoped. > > But what if the theorem is interpreted to reveal something positive: not > proving a limitation but disclosing a possibility? Instead of "You can't prove > everything," it would say: "This is what can be done: you can discover other > kinds of truths. They may be beyond your mathematical formalisms, but they are > nevertheless indubitable." > > In this, G?del was elevating the nature of the world, rather than celebrating > powers of the mind. There were indeed timeless truths. The mind would discover > them not by following the futile methodologies of formal systems, but by > taking astonishing leaps, making unusual connections, revealing hidden > meanings. > > Like Einstein, G?del was, Ms. Goldstein suggests, a Platonist. > > Of course, those leaps and connections could go awry. G?del was an > intermittent paranoiac, whose twisted visions often left his colleagues in > dismay. He spent his later years working on a proof of the existence of God. > He even died in the grip of a perverse esotericism. He feared eating, imagined > elaborate plots, and literally wasted away. At his death in 1978, he weighed > 65 pounds. > > But he was no postmodernist. Late in his life G?del said of mathematics: "It > is given to us in its entirety and does not change, unlike the Milky Way. That > part of it of which we have a perfect view seems beautiful, suggesting > harmony." That beauty, he proposed, would be mirrored by the world itself. > These are not exactly the views of an acolyte devoted to Relativity, > Incompleteness and Uncertainty. And Einstein was his fellow dissenter. > > The Connections column will appear every other Monday. > > Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | > Corrections | RSS | Help | Back to Top > > > -------------- > There's a couple of other articles I'm trying to find. > > On Thursday, March 31, 2005, at 01:40PM, Paul Lake > wrote: > >> > >> ><>_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > > > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > > > I came to the same conclusion about Godel and the misuse of his ideas by > postmodernists after reading an interview with Godel in which he made it clear > (as his biographer insists below) that far from saying the truth didn?t exist > or couldn?t be known, he believed that numbers and mathematical truths existed > as Platonic forms. His work in mathematics is often conflated with or compared > to Derrida?s in language. I believe that postmodern thinkers are as wrong > about language as they are about Godel?s theoretical ideas about numbers. > > Paul Lake > > > > > On 3/30/05 7:41 PM, "JforJames at aol.com" wrote: > >> In a message dated 3/30/2005 6:33:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: >>> The House of Spades collapses under the weight of its own complexity -- no >>> one ever *contradicted* the Absolute Truths of Euclid or Newton: those two >>> simply became subsets of a larger view. >>> >>> Then the butterfly flapped its purty wings. >>> >>> Call me Godel. >>> >>> Da Dormouse. >> I went to lecture at Trinity College (Hartford CT) yesterday on Godel, >> and found myself wondering about whether we poets (and literary >> types) are too free & easy with the way we graft science/math >> concepts to our own means. >> Here's part of interview of Godel's biographer Rebecca Goldstein: >> http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=116 >> Which brings me to the crux of your question. Among ?humanist? intellectuals >> who do invoke G?del?s name, he is often associated with the general assault >> on objectivity and rationality that gained such popularity in the last >> century. I?d often find myself pondering which would be the preferable state >> of affairs regarding G?del, anonymity or misinterpretation. Which would G?del >> have preferred? I?m going to indulge in ?the privileged position of the >> biographer? to presume I know the answer to the latter question, at least: >> G?del, who was so passionately committed to the truth, would have far >> preferred utter oblivion to the falsifications of his theorems that have >> given him whatever fame he has in the non-mathematical world. >> >> And what falsifications! He had meant his incompleteness theorems to prove >> the philosophical position to which he was, heart and soul, committed: >> mathematical Platonism, which is, in short, the belief that there is a >> human-independent mathematical reality that grounds our mathematical truths; >> mathematicians are in the business of discovering, rather than inventing, >> mathematics. His incompleteness theorems concerned the incompleteness of our >> man-made formal systems, not of mathematical truth, or our knowledge of it. >> He believed that mathematical reality and our knowledge of mathematical >> reality exceed the formal rules of formal systems. So unlike the view that >> says there is no truth apart from the truths we create for ourselves, so that >> the entire concept of truth disintegrates into a plurality of points of view, >> G?del believed that truth - most paradigmatically, mathematical truth - >> subsists independently of any human point of view. If ever there was a man >> committed to the objectivity of truth, and to objective standards of >> rationality, it was G?del. And so the usurpation of his theorems by >> postmodernists is ironic. Jean Cocteau wrote in 1926 that ?The worst tragedy >> for a poet is to be admired through being misunderstood.? For a logician, >> especially one with G?del?s delicate psychology, the tragedy is perhaps even >> greater. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 1 16:23:29 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:23:29 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <008301c53701$0ce2eae0$cdee3652@yourpk9x5fuc06> On the New York Times: Robert Creeley, 78, Groundbreaking Poet, Dies http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/01/books/01creeley.html? _______________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 1 17:11:35 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:11:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh References: Message-ID: <014101c53707$c4e8b150$299f9951@Robin> Re: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh<< And don't forget Heisenberg and his Uncertainty Principle. Paul Lake >> Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a totally different ball of wax from Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. Frankly, this buggers my brain -- I can't possibly see how even a misreading of Godel could lead to any kind of relativity -- surely Godel's Incompleteness Theorem *depends* on a sense of Platonic Absolute Truth, nah? For there to be a Truth outside the bounds of derived postulates, there has to be a Higher Truth. Plato, but ... Robin The Map Is Not the Country -- Except in Mathematics From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 1 19:33:55 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:33:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh Message-ID: <9.41308a3d.2f7f4273@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/2005 5:11:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > And don't forget Heisenberg and his Uncertainty Principle. > > Paul Lake > >> > > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a totally different ball of wax from > Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. > > UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE I do not know the weight of the geese that fly away. They may be like electrons or other subatomic particles. I cannot truly know if they are heading south. More precisely, how can I be sure of my position. I cannot say how fast the pouting cumulous cloud to the west is coming, when I will need to unfold my umbrella. Unable to determine what is my time, for most of this life I have embraced tardiness, welcomed the arrival of whim and fancy. Secretly, I've always fantasized about the atoms of birds, water, turning leaves, how they all know where they should be and how long to stay. J.P. Dancing Bear ZONE 3, Spring/Fall 2004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 1 19:52:10 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:52:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <1f9.6ccbc9b.2f7f46ba@aol.com> Question: And I don't mean this in a negative way, but wasn't Creeley an American "antipoet," a poet who eschewed poetic language per se, and flirted openly with idiom and cliche? I noted he had at least 3 wives...it seems as though the great love poets can't make it stick. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Apr 1 20:28:58 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:28:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504020107.j3217A5K013744@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> or that not being able to making it stick is perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 4:52 PM it seems as though the great love poets can't make it stick. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Apr 1 20:07:26 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:07:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley References: <1f9.6ccbc9b.2f7f46ba@aol.com> Message-ID: <002e01c53720$59f7f270$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Probably the wives couldn't handle his flirting openly with idiom and cliche. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Question: And I don't mean this in a negative way, but wasn't Creeley an American "antipoet," a poet who eschewed poetic language per se, and flirted openly with idiom and cliche? I noted he had at least 3 wives...it seems as though the great love poets can't make it stick. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra at debradicembre.com Fri Apr 1 20:07:11 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:07:11 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley References: <1f9.6ccbc9b.2f7f46ba@aol.com> Message-ID: <006601c53720$4ebc4690$0301010a@galaxy> Imagine... Knowing so little, Saying so much. DD ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Question: And I don't mean this in a negative way, but wasn't Creeley an American "antipoet," a poet who eschewed poetic language per se, and flirted openly with idiom and cliche? I noted he had at least 3 wives...it seems as though the great love poets can't make it stick. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 1 20:17:18 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:17:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > or that not being able to making it stick is > perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... > > Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) right? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Apr 1 20:41:41 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:41:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504020119.j321JqOW261900@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Do you think Creeley so presumes? I don't.... I guess I think of it as him talking to himself, trying to convince himself, etc-- i.e. writing as an aid to memory.... ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:17 PM In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: or that not being able to making it stick is perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) right? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Fri Apr 1 20:33:07 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:33:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: I always wondered the same about priests. How can they counsel about love and marriage, having children and couple-issues when they, themselves, know none of such things. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 20:48:11 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:48:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050402014811.32421.qmail@web54606.mail.yahoo.com> To leave when it's time is an act of love... JforJames at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: or that not being able to making it stick is perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) right? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 1 20:51:47 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 19:51:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050401192625.029f1d50@mail.ilstu.edu> At 07:17 PM 4/1/2005, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote >an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even >tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce >so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) >right? >Finnegan I like Chris's answer, but would also add that "love," as in the idea of "romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, and a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual respect -- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. But hey it makes for the great gritty emotional fiction we call "love poetry." Gabriel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Apr 1 21:36:40 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:36:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504020214.j322Ep28235238@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Ah Gabe--- I see this has gotten general now, and not about Creeley.... Hmmmm......your position seems a little extreme to me, do I take this to mean you're of the "go together like a horse and carriage" school? ---------- From: Gabriel Gudding To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" , new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:51 PM At 07:17 PM 4/1/2005, JforJames at aol.com wrote: Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) right? Finnegan I like Chris's answer, but would also add that "love," as in the idea of "romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, and a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual respect -- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. But hey it makes for the great gritty emotional fiction we call "love poetry." Gabriel _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Apr 1 23:37:39 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 05:37:39 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] April Poetry magazine In-Reply-To: <020501c5357c$00639430$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: As we musicians say, Ockgehem's razor. > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman > Sent: 30 March 2005 23:59 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] April Poetry magazine > > > > Scientists try to make the _simplest possible_ explanatory models. > > Occam's Razor, ya know. > > Right. The simplest possible effective explanatory models. > And those models become more and more complex as science > progresses (although the complexity is most often in the > details as in the theory of evolution, which is simple on the > surface but dependent on complex details of genetics). > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From chan_jt at hotmail.com Sat Apr 2 00:10:12 2005 From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 05:10:12 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog (navel Orange) Message-ID: hello Please check out my blog: http://navelorange.blogspot.com Thanks. regards Jill Chan _________________________________________________________________ Shop ?til you drop at XtraMSN Shopping http://shopping.xtramsn.co.nz/home/ From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Apr 2 00:17:57 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 06:17:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh In-Reply-To: <014101c53707$c4e8b150$299f9951@Robin> Message-ID: No, there is an equivalence between Heisenberg's uncertaintly principle, G?del's incompleteness theorem, and the ?language games? Wittgenstein speaks of in Philosophical Investigations. That is not to say that the one explains the other. > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Robin Hamilton > Sent: 01 April 2005 23:12 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh > > Re: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh<< > And don't forget Heisenberg and his Uncertainty Principle. > > Paul Lake > >> > > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a totally different > ball of wax from Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. > > Frankly, this buggers my brain -- I can't possibly see how > even a misreading of Godel could lead to any kind of > relativity -- surely Godel's Incompleteness Theorem *depends* > on a sense of Platonic Absolute Truth, nah? > > For there to be a Truth outside the bounds of derived > postulates, there has to be a Higher Truth. > > Plato, but ... > > Robin > > The Map Is Not the Country -- Except in Mathematics > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 2 01:01:08 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 00:01:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <200504020214.j322Ep28235238@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200504020214.j322Ep28235238@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050401235453.029e9860@mail.ilstu.edu> sorry, Chris, I don't know what you mean by "the 'go together like a horse and carriage school.'" What's that? -- explain please if you want. At 08:36 PM 4/1/2005, you wrote: >Ah Gabe--- > >I see this has gotten general now, and not about Creeley.... > Hmmmm......your position seems a little extreme to me, > do I take this to mean you're of the "go together like a horse > and carriage" school? > > > >---------- >From: Gabriel Gudding >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:51 PM > > >At 07:17 PM 4/1/2005, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote >an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even >tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce >so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) >right? >Finnegan > > >I like Chris's answer, but would also add that "love," as in the idea of >"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) >is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, >and a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual >respect -- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. > >But hey it makes for the great gritty emotional fiction we call "love >poetry." > >Gabriel > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 2 01:45:15 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 07:45:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] godel, escher, bosh References: Message-ID: <000e01c5374f$87bfdf90$299f9951@Robin> Peter: > No, there is an equivalence between Heisenberg's uncertaintly principle, > G?del's incompleteness theorem, and the 'language games' Wittgenstein speaks > of in Philosophical Investigations. That is not to say that the one explains > the other. I'd deny the equivalence -- Heisenberg operates in the realm of science, Godel in mathematics (perhaps even more narrowly, in the realm of strict arithmetic systems), and Wittgenstein in, loosely, mathematical logic (partly). I fail to see how you can map the one onto the other. Unless you link Betrand Russell's admiration for Wittgenstein into Godel blowing-apart all that Russell and Whitehead (thought they) did in the Principia Mathematica. But that still leaves Heisenberg hanging loose -- Godel's math wasn't relevant to anything Heisenberg was doing. Or you rack it up one stage and use them all as mere-metaphors-for-poetry, whereupon Sokal and Bricomont's ferocious denunciation of the misuse that Deleuze made of Godel comes into play. Dunno. Maybe I'm missing something. But I can't see any direct link myself. The three were all, I'd admit, Great Minds, but they don't even operate in parallel. W. in the Tractatus and the Philosophical Investigations didn't use math, Heisenberg used it but it wasn't central to his project, while for Godel in this area, nothing existed *outside* arithmetic. Robin ("Derived postulates" -- did I really say that? Silly me. "Derivations from the postulates ...") > > Robin Hamilton > > And don't forget Heisenberg and his Uncertainty Principle. > > > > Paul Lake > > >> > > > > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a totally different > > ball of wax from Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. > > > > Frankly, this buggers my brain -- I can't possibly see how > > even a misreading of Godel could lead to any kind of > > relativity -- surely Godel's Incompleteness Theorem *depends* > > on a sense of Platonic Absolute Truth, nah? > > > > For there to be a Truth outside the bounds of derived > > postulates, there has to be a Higher Truth. > > > > Plato, but ... > > > > Robin > > > > The Map Is Not the Country -- Except in Mathematics From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Apr 2 11:01:24 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 08:01:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504021539.j32FdY28415766@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Gabe---Sorry if I sounded flip. And what you wrote below definitely inspired me in a way in that it riled me up, as kind of counter-thesis, that I immediately thought, "okay, I'm familiar with that position in poetry, but is it really, ultimately, applicable to Creeley, whose work I've been reading (perhaps to act out a kind of 'mourning', during my so-called "free time" these last few days)? Certainly some of Creeley's poetry enacts, or wrestles with "blind desire," and "selfishness"---both his own and others---but it doesn't seem so consistently valorized, to me, at least. Compared to many other "love poets," Creeley seems---even in the earlier love poems--to have at least as strong of a need/duty to locate love IN marriage as he does to locate it in that "romantic love" as you so define it below; and in fact that tension is a large part of what makes his poetry so fascinating, good, and I'd say honest, however "fabricated." Now, granted, we all have a different sense of "emotional boundaires" and if you feel he doesn't respect yours, or if you feel his particular ways of addressing women in the second person, and/or speaking of women in the third (and I mean specifically in the love and/or relationship and/or breakup pieces---to be clear), don't respect theirs, you're certainly entitled to that position, for obviously as a poet yourself, you need to "fabricate" your own ways of "negotiating" these issues, and I respect that. But I just don't think Creeley's poetry, even in FOR LOVE, can simply be reduced to your characterization. Sure, blame of the other is dramatized there, but then often tempered with self-blame as well. Unlike others, who shy away from dramatizing these (what you call) "blind desires," Creeley's quite willing, in his poetry and stories, to use them as a starting point, to work them out---perhaps a kind of "ritual cleansing" and the way I see it the ritual's function is precisely to "RESPECT EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES"--- Of course, it's not perhaps so much with you I have an argument (since you ostensibly were not speaking of Creeley per se) as with Finnegan's initial attempt to bring up a biographical fact as somehow of great significance for considering the value of Creeley's poetry, as if somehow the fact that he had been married three times might somehow invalidate, or otherwise qualify, the poetry. Okay, he was no "ANGEL" as they say, but aside from the fact that I don't think there's any usefulness in putting the man's biography (which most likely none of us know the circumstances enough anyway) on trial, and then reading his poetry through that filter, to me the implication that the mere fact that "being married three times" somehow is a sign of being a "failure in love" seems rather harsh to me. Maybe those who were lucky enough to "get it right the first time," may feel free to sit in judgment; maybe those who don't even try in their poetry (or other forms of writing) to investigate just what is happening in the erotic or domestic relationships that are so centrally important to them can also sit in judgment; and, yes, maybe some feminists have a point (like that woman who allegedly ripped into Creeley for his poem with the image of "split open your head and put/ a candle in/ behind the eyes")--but obviously three different women choose to marry him, and if that's a failure in love, well, tell that to someone who is still pining over a woman or man who divorced him or her 25 years ago, and has never been able to go on a date again.... (okay, not the strongest ending on my part---I'm obviously writing about these issues more, but mostly in my notebooks, and they probably won't be available for public consumption for awhile---though we can continue this conversation if you want).... thanks, Chris > sorry, Chris, I don't know what you mean by "the 'go together like a horse > and carriage school.'" What's that? -- explain please if you want. "love," as in the idea of >>"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) >>is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, >>and a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual >>respect -- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. > > > > At 08:36 PM 4/1/2005, you wrote: >>Ah Gabe--- >> >>I see this has gotten general now, and not about Creeley.... >> Hmmmm......your position seems a little extreme to me, >> do I take this to mean you're of the "go together like a horse >> and carriage" school? >> >> >> From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 12:19:17 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:19:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <1da.3974efd9.2f802e15@aol.com> I'm going retract my last statement...the word "instructive" was not correct, at least when it comes to Creeley. I don't read him that way. I started with a pointed observation about love poets, like Creeley, and their 'itinerancy' when it comes to committed love, and that's about all I can say without going into territory I know nothing about, particularly when it comes to Creeley. I also want to stay away from too simplistic a view of love...and all things that cause people to fall out it. Certainly many of the great love poems are based as much in the lapses & the losses. of love in course of life. Finnegan In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:20:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > Do you think Creeley so presumes? > I don't.... > I guess I think of it as him talking to himself, trying to convince himself, > etc-- > i.e. writing as an aid to memory.... > > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley > Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:17 PM > > > >> In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >> >> >>> or that not being able to making it stick is >>> perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... >>> >>> >> >> >> Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote >> an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even >> tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce >> so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) >> right? >> Finnegan _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 2 12:23:41 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:23:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424ED51D.2040604@ix.netcom.com> For the sake of clarity in this strain, the term Heisenberg used was *'Unbestimmtheitsrelation' or 'indeterminancy relation.'--- see Kurt Huebner. Heisenberg intends no "uncertainty" nor "principle" in his **Unbestimmtheitsrelation*. Forced to use a term to represent a set of mathematical calculations derived from 'idealized' (Bohr's term), *that is mathematically formalized, and 'unvizualizable' (again Bohr's term) experience, empirical but instrumented reason, Heisenberg focused his term on the unique results of. e.g. between 'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected Papers), exhibited by the subject phenomena. American and British physicists originated the coinage 'uncertainty principle.' CP P.S. Please, I do not want to enter this discussion because it has no relevance to what I am doing now and I'm tired of arguing and being misunderstood on the topic especially after having devoted so many years to it. There used to be several articles of mine touching upon this subject on the net the most conspicuous at Science As Cultture. You can argue with that ghost.* > > > From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 2 12:26:36 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:26:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <200504021539.j32FdY28415766@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200504021539.j32FdY28415766@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402110738.024fa988@mail.ilstu.edu> Hey Chris. Thanks for your great answer -- was certainly a lot more text than I expected in response from you, so I probably won't be able to engage your great post with the same generosity with which you engaged my brief question to you, but I do wanna say I've also been rereading (and too of course some of this reading for the first time) in much of the 4 volumes of Creeley's work I have -- and I've been reading to the students in my classes as well -- and though I don't have any of the volumes here with me in my flat (they're in office) I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm displayed in his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. Yours is a fantastic post and I'll defer to yr observations as I don' thave my books here with me and as what you say just frankly seems well considered. I agree w/ you in re the folly of judging the writing via the life, as if we can truly know anything of someone's life -- as if this were some touchstone not washed through the filter of rumor, gossip, biography and memoir, not washed through the lives of others, as if "the life" might not already be simultaneously present and absent in the humming and imbrications of teh words the guy himself wrote -- so I'll leave that part of yr post in which you argue with Finnegan to you and Finnegan. Gabe http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ At 10:01 AM 4/2/2005, you wrote: >Gabe---Sorry if I sounded flip. And what you wrote below definitely inspired >me in a way in that it riled me up, as kind of counter-thesis, that I >immediately thought, "okay, I'm familiar with that position in poetry, >but is it really, ultimately, applicable to Creeley, whose work I've been >reading (perhaps to act out a kind of 'mourning', during my so-called >"free time" these last few days)? > >Certainly some of Creeley's poetry enacts, or wrestles with "blind desire," >and "selfishness"---both his own and others---but it doesn't seem so >consistently valorized, to me, at least. Compared to many other "love >poets," Creeley seems---even in the earlier love poems--to have at least as >strong of a need/duty to locate love IN marriage as he does to locate it >in that "romantic love" as you so define it below; and in fact that tension >is a large part of what makes his poetry so fascinating, good, and I'd say >honest, however "fabricated." > >Now, granted, we all have a different sense of "emotional boundaires" and if >you feel he doesn't respect yours, or if you feel his particular ways of >addressing women in the second person, and/or speaking of women in the third >(and I mean specifically in the love and/or relationship and/or breakup >pieces---to be clear), don't respect theirs, you're certainly entitled to >that position, for obviously as a poet yourself, you need to "fabricate" >your own ways of "negotiating" these issues, and I respect that. But I just >don't think Creeley's poetry, even in FOR LOVE, can simply be reduced to >your characterization. Sure, blame of the other is dramatized there, but >then often tempered with self-blame as well. Unlike others, who shy away >from dramatizing these (what you call) "blind desires," Creeley's quite >willing, in his poetry and stories, to use them as a starting point, to >work them out---perhaps a kind of "ritual cleansing" and the way I see it >the ritual's function is precisely to "RESPECT EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES"--- > >Of course, it's not perhaps so much with you I have an argument (since >you ostensibly were not speaking of Creeley per se) as with Finnegan's >initial attempt to bring up a biographical fact as somehow of great >significance for considering the value of Creeley's poetry, as if somehow >the fact that he had been married three times might somehow invalidate, >or otherwise qualify, the poetry. Okay, he was no "ANGEL" as they say, >but aside from the fact that I don't think there's any usefulness in >putting the man's biography (which most likely none of us know the >circumstances enough anyway) on trial, and then reading his poetry through >that filter, to me the implication that the mere fact that "being married >three times" somehow is a sign of being a "failure in love" seems rather >harsh to me. Maybe those who were lucky enough to "get it right the first >time," may feel free to sit in judgment; maybe those who don't even try >in their poetry (or other forms of writing) to investigate just what is >happening in the erotic or domestic relationships that are so centrally >important to them can also sit in judgment; and, yes, maybe some feminists >have a point (like that woman who allegedly ripped into Creeley for his poem >with the image of "split open your head and put/ a candle in/ behind the >eyes")--but obviously three different women choose to marry him, and if >that's a failure in love, well, tell that to someone who is still pining >over a woman or man who divorced him or her 25 years ago, and has never >been able to go on a date again.... >(okay, not the strongest ending on my part---I'm obviously writing about >these issues more, but mostly in my notebooks, and they probably won't be >available for public consumption for awhile---though we can continue this >conversation if you want).... > >thanks, >Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > sorry, Chris, I don't know what you mean by "the 'go together like a horse > > and carriage school.'" What's that? -- explain please if you want. > >"love," as in the idea of > >>"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) > >>is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, > >>and a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual > >>respect -- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. > > > > > > > > At 08:36 PM 4/1/2005, you wrote: > >>Ah Gabe--- > >> > >>I see this has gotten general now, and not about Creeley.... > >> Hmmmm......your position seems a little extreme to me, > >> do I take this to mean you're of the "go together like a horse > >> and carriage" school? > >> > >> > >> From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 12:51:00 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:51:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Day 2 of NPM: Lucie Brock-Broido Message-ID: <192.3cffda6f.2f803584@aol.com> For day two, we switch from the film-noir-inspired poetry of Kevin Young to an almost medieval, mystic timelessness. Lucie Brock-Broido's poem "Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory," from her collection TROUBLE IN MIND, also bears a connection to film, with the mention toward the poem's close of Jean Cocteau's 1946 film La Belle et La B?te, a complex retelling of the story of Beauty and the Beast. *************************************** Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory A man takes off his armor past the Iron Age And it stands without ??????????The man inside; She folds in The metal garments of his great blank Wings of winter. In Saint Petersburg, the night- Engraving churchbells toll and in this Constant cold I do not know If tolling signifies A death or marrying, hollowed Out of frost, or rue, or injury. ??????????The dark is big, filling ??????????The city with silver ??????????And trouble. You are colder Where you are, Love, curious as the alchemist who keeps His salamander living in a flask of fire, while The will of me, a black reptilian Doctor's bag, clicks shut. ???????????????????????????????????My own fealty galls, Bewilders me. In Cocteau, to La B?te's white horse, the Beauty says: Go where I am going. And he takes me there. ***************************************From TROUBLE IN MIND by Lucie Brock-Broido. Copyright ? 2004 by Lucie Brock-Broido. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** Related links: About TROUBLE IN MIND: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0QBU0Ep About Lucie Brock-Broido: http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=3310 Read a review of TROUBLE IN MIND: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0dWM0EN Discuss "Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0TtQ0Ee Learn more about Cocteau's La Belle et La B?te: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038348/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 2 13:09:34 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:09:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <200504021539.j32FdY28415766@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200504021539.j32FdY28415766@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402113135.0295fd88@mail.ilstu.edu> Cldn't resist popping up again, Chris, to flesh out my own pos below (and maybe I'll serve only to obscure it) but I have good reason (believe me) to be aware and skeptical of the kinds of harm that can come when that mix of desire and contention which we call "romantic love" is confused with love -- and I see/saw that in Creeley's work. I was struck, in rereading these past few days, by something very adolescent about the formulations of love in his work -- he seems at times almost to be working I think in emotional modes and registers constructed as "literary" -- and I wouldn't want to base an emotional life on them personally. So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience on my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you are, just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find something, well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way Brautigan was, I guess, altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and hapless buffoon like RB does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind "ritual cleansing" but I don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at times merely reifying those emotional games rather than washing them away. I am basing this on my memories of my readings in the past few days and havent a text here with me and I am unwilling to go hunting for electrical versions online, which are in abundance I know, because these are almost always removed from the contexts of their original books and as such are almost like electrical floating Rorschachs -- and because of this I admit that the above might just be a shadow cast more by my own skepticisms and notions about love than those found in Creeley's poems, so take it, you know, cum grano salis or whatever - g <> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 2 13:32:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:32:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht References: <424ED51D.2040604@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <014701c537b2$60c55a60$299f9951@Robin> Whew! Well, at least we now know who Alphaville is: http://www.flashpointmag.com/musil.htm Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alphaville" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht > > > For the sake of clarity in this strain, the term Heisenberg used was > *'Unbestimmtheitsrelation' or 'indeterminancy relation.'--- see Kurt > Huebner. Heisenberg intends no "uncertainty" nor "principle" in his > **Unbestimmtheitsrelation*. Forced to use a term to represent a set of > mathematical calculations derived from 'idealized' (Bohr's term), > *that is mathematically formalized, and 'unvizualizable' (again Bohr's > term) experience, empirical but instrumented reason, Heisenberg focused > his term on the unique results of. e.g. between > 'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected > Papers), exhibited by the subject phenomena. American and British > physicists originated the coinage 'uncertainty principle.' CP > P.S. Please, I do not want to enter this discussion because it has no > relevance to what I am doing now and I'm tired of arguing and being > misunderstood on the topic especially after having devoted so many years > to it. There used to be several articles of mine touching upon this > subject on the net the most conspicuous at Science As Cultture. You can > argue with that ghost.* > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 2 13:39:29 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:39:29 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley References: <1da.3974efd9.2f802e15@aol.com> Message-ID: <002a01c537b3$4e685060$78df3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ is rarely used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' Corner, maybe only Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in her haiku or "similar" haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it is a kind of writing that is mainly connected with an open use of this word. I was also touched by Creeley's _love_ and tried to process it. His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, someone defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he is. What I can praise is that in all the mails I read on him in these days, people tried to be good, and were able to communicate this positive feeling. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley I'm going retract my last statement...the word "instructive" was not correct, at least when it comes to Creeley. I don't read him that way. I started with a pointed observation about love poets, like Creeley, and their 'itinerancy' when it comes to committed love, and that's about all I can say without going into territory I know nothing about, particularly when it comes to Creeley. I also want to stay away from too simplistic a view of love...and all things that cause people to fall out it. Certainly many of the great love poems are based as much in the lapses & the losses. of love in course of life. Finnegan In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:20:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: Do you think Creeley so presumes? I don't.... I guess I think of it as him talking to himself, trying to convince himself, etc-- i.e. writing as an aid to memory.... ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:17 PM In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: or that not being able to making it stick is perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) right? Finnegan _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 2 13:45:12 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:45:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <002a01c537b3$4e685060$78df3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> References: <1da.3974efd9.2f802e15@aol.com> <002a01c537b3$4e685060$78df3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402124105.028fbaa0@mail.ilstu.edu> Yes well now after Anny's post on the quality of RC's love I feel as if I've done him an injustice by mentioning that for me even his wrestling with love is not enough. Let me back out of this gently, and with apologies toward RC too -- for who am I to judge how anyone wrestles with this great angel we call love. I am ashamed -- and frankly have been harmed greatly recently by my own wrestling with it and feel very bruised -- such that even Creeley was not help. So there is my excuse, if you will take it. Gabriel http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ At 12:39 PM 4/2/2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: >Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ is rarely >used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' Corner, maybe only >Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in her haiku or "similar" >haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it is a kind of writing that is >mainly connected with an open use of this word. I was also touched by >Creeley's _love_ and tried to process it. > >His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, someone >defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he is. What I can >praise is that in all the mails I read on him in these days, people tried >to be good, and were able to communicate this positive feeling. > > >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Apr 2 14:08:54 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:08:54 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504021847.j32Il4eU118634@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Gabe--- I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his > work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also > strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm displayed in > his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. > A question here, and feel free to take your time to answer it, but if you see emotional harm in his work, is it because you feel harmed by it personally? If not, to whom do you see the harm directed? What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know? Chris From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Apr 2 14:10:32 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:10:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504021848.j32Il4eW118634@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> ---------- From: Gabriel Gudding To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Date: Sat, Apr 2, 2005, 10:09 AM Cldn't resist popping up again, Chris, to flesh out my own pos below (and maybe I'll serve only to obscure it) but I have good reason (believe me) to be aware and skeptical of the kinds of harm that can come when that mix of desire and contention which we call "romantic love" is confused with love -- and I see/saw that in Creeley's work. I was struck, in rereading these past few days, by something very adolescent about the formulations of love in his work -- he seems at times almost to be working I think in emotional modes and registers constructed as "literary" -- and I wouldn't want to base an emotional life on them personally. Gabe----A fee more questions--- Do you think Creeley's poetry (or perhaps poetry in general) is asking you to base your emotional life on it? When you write your own poems are you writing them with the intention of wanting someone else to base his or her emotional life on them? If one is to turn to a poem, say by Gabriel Gudding, to be instructed in the proper non-adolescent forms of love, would that be a response you, as a poet, would appreciate? And what, in your opinion, then, is it? I may be skeptical but I'm open to what you have to say if you choose to say anything specific or flesh things out a little more, and I certainly am not accusing you of lack of patience with emotional indulgence, just wanting to get some clarification. Chris So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience on my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you are, just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find something, well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way Brautigan was, I guess, altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and hapless buffoon like RB does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind "ritual cleansing" but I don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at times merely reifying those emotional games rather than washing them away. I am basing this on my memories of my readings in the past few days and havent a text here with me and I am unwilling to go hunting for electrical versions online, which are in abundance I know, because these are almost always removed from the contexts of their original books and as such are almost like electrical floating Rorschachs -- and because of this I admit that the above might just be a shadow cast more by my own skepticisms and notions about love than those found in Creeley's poems, so take it, you know, cum grano salis or whatever - g <> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 2 14:02:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:02:36 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley References: <1da.3974efd9.2f802e15@aol.com><002a01c537b3$4e685060$78df3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> <6.0.3.0.2.20050402124105.028fbaa0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <006401c537b6$88e40e70$78df3052@yourpk9x5fuc06> And I apologize for my post if it brought to this answer by Gabriel Gudding. I was following perfectly that adoloscent love he mentions, with both sides. And I do not think that Creeley for that matter was not conscious of everything. To say the opposite would be to diminish him. Anny Ballardini ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriel Gudding To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views ; NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Yes well now after Anny's post on the quality of RC's love I feel as if I've done him an injustice by mentioning that for me even his wrestling with love is not enough. Let me back out of this gently, and with apologies toward RC too -- for who am I to judge how anyone wrestles with this great angel we call love. I am ashamed -- and frankly have been harmed greatly recently by my own wrestling with it and feel very bruised -- such that even Creeley was not help. So there is my excuse, if you will take it. Gabriel http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ At 12:39 PM 4/2/2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ is rarely used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' Corner, maybe only Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in her haiku or "similar" haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it is a kind of writing that is mainly connected with an open use of this word. I was also touched by Creeley's _love_ and tried to process it. His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, someone defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he is. What I can praise is that in all the mails I read on him in these days, people tried to be good, and were able to communicate this positive feeling. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 14:27:08 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:27:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bohred by quantum theory, try poetry Message-ID: <1d5.39797e8e.2f804c0c@aol.com> > e.g. between > 'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected > Papers), When it comes to atoms, language can be used only as in poetry. The poet, too, is not nearly so concerned with describing facts as with creating images. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. Physics concerns what we say about Nature. (Niels Bohr, 1885-1962, on Quantum Theory) -- Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it. (Niels Bohr on Quantum Physics) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 2 14:41:25 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:41:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <200504021847.j32Il4eU118634@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200504021847.j32Il4eU118634@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402124906.02b7e9f0@mail.ilstu.edu> Chris, This is a great brace of questions. My idea regarding "harm" is less a beef with Creeley per se as it is with the wider, cultural, formulations about love evident not only in RC but in scores of western writers. Yr questions: <> I think there is something structurally awry, yes, with the formulations of desire coded into our culture -- and my reading of Creeley brought this to mind, yes -- and though Creeley's work per se is not personally harmful to me anymore than desire represented in commercials is, I do feel that his poems do not Question or underscore the more harmful ideology of romantic love so much as they participate in it and make art out of it. Part of the reason for this is maybe that we are taught to appreciate the verisimilitude of love in poetry more so than any other genre . <> Directed toward any reader who uncritically admires or is taken in by the verisimilitude of such emotional formulations -- who transits from his pain or his partner's pain to aesthetic pleasure and thereby might be taught that this is the round and extent of loving possible -- that it need always end in pain or blame or brief joy followed by regret -- rather than in equanimity and compassion for the other. How do I know it's harmful? I guess because I am not a disinterested reader, I guess. Because I've suffered myself from this kind of loving, is one way of answering that. I have seen too much of the painful stuff (in the past few years) and too little of real compassion and equanimity to have much patience with ANY writer following the great river of conventions we call love poetry. So this may be unsatisfactory to you, because I think you want to call me back into Creeley whereas I keep kiting out here in the structural ends of it all -- so I see RC as a part of a larger emotional structure, such that he is operating inside an emotional ideology and that I find it dubious -- and and here's the rub for me with regard to all that above: that the conventional response when a poet like this dies is to admire what is lost, but I feel that Creeley purposefully did not write his love poems to be admired: he wrote them (I feel) to show that what we call love is hard and harrowing -- and sometimes rewarding -- and that, to my mind, what his lifework shows is that I do not in any way want to emulate his failures in love -- and especially not his love poems -- and I think he would be pleased with that response in me -- and I think his work tries honestly to wrestle this stuff out but keeps succumbing to requirements of western literary convention. I think, eg, his poem "Ballad of the Despairing Husband" is all about this. Gabriel http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ At 01:08 PM 4/2/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >Gabe--- > > I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his > > work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also > > strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm displayed in > > his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. > > > >A question here, and feel free to take your time to answer it, >but if you see emotional harm in his work, >is it because you feel harmed by it personally? >If not, to whom do you see the harm directed? >What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know? > >Chris > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 2 15:20:30 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 14:20:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <200504021848.j32Il4eW118634@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> References: <200504021848.j32Il4eW118634@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402135037.028f48c8@mail.ilstu.edu> At 01:10 PM 4/2/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >< Do you think Creeley's poetry (or perhaps poetry in general) is asking > you to base your emotional life on it?>> No, I don't, and my last post I think addresses this (and I know you didn't see that before you sent this). I don't know that that's what poems do -- but there is something about the way poetry is coveted in our culture, especially by other poets, that can invite this. I'm not "worried" about it or anything. ><wanting someone else to base his or her emotional life on them? If one is >to turn to a poem, say by Gabriel Gudding, to be instructed in the proper >non-adolescent forms of love, would that be a response you, as a poet, >would appreciate? And what, in your opinion, then, is it?>> Okay I am beginning to feel the heat now, Chris. I don't think there is anything instructive in my first book. The poems ithere are made of insult, invective, scatology, belittling myself etc, and sometimes desire -- such that I wd hope no one wd turn toward my poems with some need to be instructed about how to live -- I don't think that's the function of a book like my first book. But I never wrote a book called _For Love_ either. I think a more honest response to yr questions right now wd be for me to go back and reread _For Love_. That may take me a few days. Thnx for yr questions -- they're good ones and I'm sorry if i didn't do justice to them, for you -- or anyone. I suspect my reading of his work is merely falling into a caricature of him that I've crafted in my own mind while safely away from his books: It occurs to me I could just as easily read "Ballad of teh Despairing Husband" in light of its purposefully belabored meter as a comment on exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about here. Thanks for the exchange, Chris, which with you is always instructive. g -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 15:46:39 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:46:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] the language comedown Message-ID: <105.5e14ad36.2f805eaf@aol.com> In a message dated 4/2/2005 12:18:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk writes: > there is an equivalence between Heisenberg's uncertaintly principle, > G?del's incompleteness theorem, and the ?language games? Wittgenstein > speaks > of in Philosophical Investigations. That is not to say that the one explains > the other. > Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new theories that describe what the universe is to ask the question why. On the other hand, the people whose business it is to ask why, the philosophers, have not been able to keep up with the advance of scientific theories. In the eighteenth century, philosophers considered the whole of human knowledge, including science, to be their field and discussed questions such as: Did the universe have a beginning? However, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, science became too technical and mathematical for philosophers, or anyone else except a few specialists Philosophers reduced the scope of their inquiries so much that Wittgenstein, the most famous philosopher of this century, said, "the sole remaining task for philosophy is the analysis of language." What a comedown from the great tradition of philosophy from Aristotle to Kant! Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 16:27:04 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:27:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] hiring a new Program Coordinator Message-ID: <12c.5af0c13e.2f806828@aol.com> Date: 3/30/2005 9:06:24 AM Eastern Standard Time From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu To: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu Dear friends: We at the Kelly Writers House are hiring a new Program Coordinator, and we are now accepting applications. The job begins July 1 and is a full-time position, with full benefits, at the University of Pennsylvania. If you are interested in applying, or know someone who might be interested, please read the full description here: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/programcoordinator.html To apply, please review the description and then send a cover letter and resume to Jennifer Snead, Director, Kelly Writers House, University of Pennsylvania, 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6150. The deadline for applications is 5 PM on Monday, April 25, 2005, and all finalists will be interviewed on May 9, 2005. Applicants are strongly urged to tour the Kelly Writers House web site: ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh The position is also identified on the Penn Human Resources site. Go to ? ? ? ? https://jobs.hr.upenn.edu/ and search for reference number 050317002.? ? Al Filreis Kelly Professor of English Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House Director, the Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 16:42:41 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:42:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <194.3bf070e4.2f806bd1@aol.com> In a message dated 4/2/2005 1:09:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to > see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for > the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience on > my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you are, > just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find something, > well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way Brautigan was, I guess, > altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and hapless buffoon like RB > does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind "ritual cleansing" but I > don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at times merely reifying those > emotional games rather than washing them away. > Could there a be a connection to E. E. Cummngs' love poetry? When the word "adolescent" was raised in this context, I felt the notions expressed by Creeley in his love poetry at times have a similar cast. There's always that fuzzy dividing line between a kind of open-faced/open-hearted innocence and what we'd call naive or underdeveloped, in a negative sense. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 16:54:08 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:54:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad form, for sure Message-ID: <80.24dbfb81.2f806e80@aol.com> A poet I know got divorced in the last couple years. No big story that. But one of his former wife's most bitter (& justifiable) complaints against him was that she'd found evidence that he'd given the other woman the same exact love poem he'd written to her some years before. Had he studied The Merry Wives of Windsor he might have known the pique that can cause. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 17:19:58 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:19:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] What do we know and when did we know it?: Bruno Latour Message-ID: <1a3.30ca170b.2f80748e@aol.com> Sorry for over-posting today. I'm in one of my near-manic phases. I regret to infomr you that NewPoetry has been today renamed the Science & Philosophy List... Poetry will remain the last stand of the Metaphysicians. Finnegan http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067465336X/ref=pd_sim_b_1/104-31 75128-7363967?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance A scientist friend asked Bruno Latour point-blank: Do you believe in reality? Taken aback by this strange query, Latour offers his meticulous response in Pandora's Hope. It is a remarkable argument for understanding the reality of science in practical terms. In this book Latour, identified by Richard Rorty as the new "bete noire of the science worshipers," gives us his most philosophically informed book since Science in Action. Through case studies of scientists in the Amazon analyzing soil and in Pasteur's lab studying the fermentation of lactic acid, he shows us the myriad steps by which events in the material world are transformed into items of scientific knowledge. Through many examples in the world of technology, we see how the material and human worlds come together and are reciprocally transformed in this process. Why, Latour asks, did the idea of an independent reality, free of human interaction, emerge in the first place? His answer to this question, harking back to the debates between Might and Right narrated by Plato, points to the real stakes in the so-called science wars: the perplexed submission of ordinary people before the warring forces of claimants to the ultimate truth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sat Apr 2 05:57:55 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:57:55 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <200504022146.j32LkE0t006514@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200504022146.j32LkE0t006514@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Creeley had the most singular talent a poet can have: he had this knack for getting people to listen to him as he reflected in public. As we listened, our language was honed. Certain words of his became our own: "Apropos," for instance, but this wasn't the only one. Another one was, "Wow." More than any of the poets who were our teachers, it was Creeley who taught by example what we Americans term: "Kool." "Still waters run deep," was a cliche he knew applied to himself. Creeley was a jazz human clarinet. He knew how to dot the very moment you shared with an expert index finger tip. And look you in the eye with his one eye. And with you, be here. ---- R i c h a r d D i l l o n >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Creeley (JforJames at aol.com) > 2. Re: girdle, koscher, borsht (Alphaville) > 3. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) > 4. Day 2 of NPM: Lucie Brock-Broido (JforJames at aol.com) > 5. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) > 6. Re: girdle, koscher, borsht (Robin Hamilton) > 7. Re: Creeley (Anny Ballardini) > 8. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) > 9. Re: Creeley (Chris Stroffolino ) > 10. Re: Creeley (Chris Stroffolino ) > 11. Re: Creeley (Anny Ballardini) > 12. Bohred by quantum theory, try poetry (JforJames at aol.com) > 13. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) > 14. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) > 15. the language comedown (JforJames at aol.com) > 16. hiring a new Program Coordinator (JforJames at aol.com) > 17. Re: Creeley (JforJames at aol.com) > 18. Bad form, for sure (JforJames at aol.com) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:19:17 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <1da.3974efd9.2f802e15 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I'm going retract my last statement...the word >"instructive" was not correct, at least when it >comes to Creeley. I don't read him that way. >I started with a pointed observation about love poets, >like Creeley, and their 'itinerancy' when it comes to >committed love, and that's about all I can say without >going into territory I know nothing about, particularly >when it comes to Creeley. >I also want to stay away from too simplistic a view >of love...and all things that cause people to fall >out it. Certainly many of the great love poems >are based as much in the lapses & the losses. >of love in course of life. >Finnegan > > >In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:20:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, >cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > >> Do you think Creeley so presumes? >> I don't.... >> I guess I think of it as him talking to himself, trying to convince himself, >> etc-- >> i.e. writing as an aid to memory.... >> >> ---------- >> From: JforJames at aol.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >> Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:17 PM >> >> >> >> In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>> cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >>> >>> >>> or that not being able to making it stick is >>>> perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote >>> an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even >>> tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce >>> so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) >>> right? >>> Finnegan _______________________________________________ >> > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/7ec2b430/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:23:41 -0500 >From: Alphaville >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <424ED51D.2040604 at ix.netcom.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > >For the sake of clarity in this strain, the term Heisenberg used was >*'Unbestimmtheitsrelation' or 'indeterminancy relation.'--- see Kurt >Huebner. Heisenberg intends no "uncertainty" nor "principle" in his >**Unbestimmtheitsrelation*. Forced to use a term to represent a set of >mathematical calculations derived from 'idealized' (Bohr's term), >*that is mathematically formalized, and 'unvizualizable' (again Bohr's >term) experience, empirical but instrumented reason, Heisenberg focused >his term on the unique results of. e.g. between >'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected >Papers), exhibited by the subject phenomena. American and British >physicists originated the coinage 'uncertainty principle.' CP >P.S. Please, I do not want to enter this discussion because it has no >relevance to what I am doing now and I'm tired of arguing and being >misunderstood on the topic especially after having devoted so many years >to it. There used to be several articles of mine touching upon this >subject on the net the most conspicuous at Science As Cultture. You can >argue with that ghost.* > >> >> >> > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:26:36 -0600 >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402110738.024fa988 at mail.ilstu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Hey Chris. Thanks for your great answer -- was certainly a lot more text >than I expected in response from you, so I probably won't be able to engage >your great post with the same generosity with which you engaged my brief >question to you, but I do wanna say I've also been rereading (and too of >course some of this reading for the first time) in much of the 4 volumes of >Creeley's work I have -- and I've been reading to the students in my >classes as well -- and though I don't have any of the volumes here with me >in my flat (they're in office) I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his >work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also >strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm displayed in >his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. > >Yours is a fantastic post and I'll defer to yr observations as I don' thave >my books here with me and as what you say just frankly seems well >considered. I agree w/ you in re the folly of judging the writing via the >life, as if we can truly know anything of someone's life -- as if this were >some touchstone not washed through the filter of rumor, gossip, biography >and memoir, not washed through the lives of others, as if "the life" might >not already be simultaneously present and absent in the humming and >imbrications of teh words the guy himself wrote -- so I'll leave that part >of yr post in which you argue with Finnegan to you and Finnegan. > >Gabe > >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > > >At 10:01 AM 4/2/2005, you wrote: > >>Gabe---Sorry if I sounded flip. And what you wrote below definitely inspired >>me in a way in that it riled me up, as kind of counter-thesis, that I >>immediately thought, "okay, I'm familiar with that position in poetry, >>but is it really, ultimately, applicable to Creeley, whose work I've been >>reading (perhaps to act out a kind of 'mourning', during my so-called >>"free time" these last few days)? >> >>Certainly some of Creeley's poetry enacts, or wrestles with "blind desire," >>and "selfishness"---both his own and others---but it doesn't seem so >>consistently valorized, to me, at least. Compared to many other "love > >poets," Creeley seems---even in the earlier love poems--to have at least as >>strong of a need/duty to locate love IN marriage as he does to locate it > >in that "romantic love" as you so define it below; and in fact that tension >>is a large part of what makes his poetry so fascinating, good, and I'd say >>honest, however "fabricated." >> >>Now, granted, we all have a different sense of "emotional boundaires" and if >>you feel he doesn't respect yours, or if you feel his particular ways of >>addressing women in the second person, and/or speaking of women in the third >>(and I mean specifically in the love and/or relationship and/or breakup >>pieces---to be clear), don't respect theirs, you're certainly entitled to >>that position, for obviously as a poet yourself, you need to "fabricate" >>your own ways of "negotiating" these issues, and I respect that. But I just >>don't think Creeley's poetry, even in FOR LOVE, can simply be reduced to >>your characterization. Sure, blame of the other is dramatized there, but >>then often tempered with self-blame as well. Unlike others, who shy away >>from dramatizing these (what you call) "blind desires," Creeley's quite >>willing, in his poetry and stories, to use them as a starting point, to >>work them out---perhaps a kind of "ritual cleansing" and the way I see it >>the ritual's function is precisely to "RESPECT EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES"--- >> >>Of course, it's not perhaps so much with you I have an argument (since >>you ostensibly were not speaking of Creeley per se) as with Finnegan's >>initial attempt to bring up a biographical fact as somehow of great >>significance for considering the value of Creeley's poetry, as if somehow >>the fact that he had been married three times might somehow invalidate, >>or otherwise qualify, the poetry. Okay, he was no "ANGEL" as they say, >>but aside from the fact that I don't think there's any usefulness in >>putting the man's biography (which most likely none of us know the >>circumstances enough anyway) on trial, and then reading his poetry through >>that filter, to me the implication that the mere fact that "being married >>three times" somehow is a sign of being a "failure in love" seems rather >>harsh to me. Maybe those who were lucky enough to "get it right the first >>time," may feel free to sit in judgment; maybe those who don't even try >>in their poetry (or other forms of writing) to investigate just what is >>happening in the erotic or domestic relationships that are so centrally >>important to them can also sit in judgment; and, yes, maybe some feminists >>have a point (like that woman who allegedly ripped into Creeley for his poem >>with the image of "split open your head and put/ a candle in/ behind the >>eyes")--but obviously three different women choose to marry him, and if >>that's a failure in love, well, tell that to someone who is still pining >>over a woman or man who divorced him or her 25 years ago, and has never >>been able to go on a date again.... >>(okay, not the strongest ending on my part---I'm obviously writing about >>these issues more, but mostly in my notebooks, and they probably won't be >>available for public consumption for awhile---though we can continue this >>conversation if you want).... >> >>thanks, >>Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > sorry, Chris, I don't know what you mean by "the 'go together like a horse >> > and carriage school.'" What's that? -- explain please if you want. >> >>"love," as in the idea of >> >>"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) >> >>is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, >> >>and a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual >> >>respect -- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. >> > >> > >> > >> > At 08:36 PM 4/1/2005, you wrote: >> >>Ah Gabe--- >> >> >> >>I see this has gotten general now, and not about Creeley.... >> >> Hmmmm......your position seems a little extreme to me, >> >> do I take this to mean you're of the "go together like a horse >> >> and carriage" school? >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:51:00 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] Day 2 of NPM: Lucie Brock-Broido >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <192.3cffda6f.2f803584 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >For day two, we switch from the film-noir-inspired poetry of Kevin Young to >an almost medieval, mystic timelessness. > >Lucie Brock-Broido's poem "Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory," from her >collection TROUBLE IN MIND, also bears a connection to film, with the mention >toward the poem's close of Jean Cocteau's 1946 film La Belle et La B?te, a >complex retelling of the story of Beauty and the Beast. > > >*************************************** > >Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory > > > >A man takes off his armor past the Iron Age >And it stands without > >??????????The man inside; >She folds in > >The metal garments of his great blank >Wings of winter. In > >Saint Petersburg, the night- >Engraving churchbells toll and in this > >Constant cold I do not know >If tolling signifies > >A death or marrying, hollowed >Out of frost, or rue, or injury. > >??????????The dark is big, filling >??????????The city with silver > >??????????And trouble. You are colder >Where you are, > >Love, curious as the alchemist who keeps >His salamander living in a flask of fire, while > >The will of me, a black reptilian >Doctor's bag, clicks shut. > >???????????????????????????????????My own fealty galls, >Bewilders me. > >In Cocteau, to La B?te's white horse, the Beauty says: >Go where I am going. And he takes me there. > > >***************************************From TROUBLE IN MIND by Lucie >Brock-Broido. Copyright ? 2004 by Lucie Brock-Broido. Excerpted by >permission of >Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights >reserved. No part of >this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from >the publisher. > >*************************************** > >Related links: > >About TROUBLE IN MIND: >http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0QBU0Ep > > About Lucie Brock-Broido: >http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=3310 > > Read a review of TROUBLE IN MIND: >http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0dWM0EN > > Discuss "Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: >http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0TtQ0Ee > > Learn more about Cocteau's La Belle et La B?te: >http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038348/ > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/fca1ca3d/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:09:34 -0600 >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" >Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402113135.0295fd88 at mail.ilstu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Cldn't resist popping up again, Chris, to flesh out my own pos below (and >maybe I'll serve only to obscure it) but I have good reason (believe me) to >be aware and skeptical of the kinds of harm that can come when that mix of >desire and contention which we call "romantic love" is confused with love >-- and I see/saw that in Creeley's work. I was struck, in rereading these >past few days, by something very adolescent about the formulations of love >in his work -- he seems at times almost to be working I think in emotional >modes and registers constructed as "literary" -- and I wouldn't want to >base an emotional life on them personally. > >So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to >see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for >the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience >on my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you >are, just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find >something, well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way >Brautigan was, I guess, altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and >hapless buffoon like RB does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind >"ritual cleansing" but I don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at >times merely reifying those emotional games rather than washing them away. > >I am basing this on my memories of my readings in the past few days and >havent a text here with me and I am unwilling to go hunting for electrical >versions online, which are in abundance I know, because these are almost >always removed from the contexts of their original books and as such are >almost like electrical floating Rorschachs -- and because of this I admit >that the above might just be a shadow cast more by my own skepticisms and >notions about love than those found in Creeley's poems, so take it, you >know, cum grano salis or whatever - g > ><"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) >is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, and >a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual respect >-- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. > >But hey it makes for the great gritty emotional fiction we call "love poetry." > >Gabriel>> > >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/a266a4b5/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:32:50 +0100 >From: "Robin Hamilton" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <014701c537b2$60c55a60$299f9951 at Robin> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Whew! > >Well, at least we now know who Alphaville is: > > http://www.flashpointmag.com/musil.htm > >Robin > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alphaville" >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > >Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:23 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht > > >> >> >> For the sake of clarity in this strain, the term Heisenberg used was >> *'Unbestimmtheitsrelation' or 'indeterminancy relation.'--- see Kurt >> Huebner. Heisenberg intends no "uncertainty" nor "principle" in his >> **Unbestimmtheitsrelation*. Forced to use a term to represent a set of >> mathematical calculations derived from 'idealized' (Bohr's term), >> *that is mathematically formalized, and 'unvizualizable' (again Bohr's >> term) experience, empirical but instrumented reason, Heisenberg focused >> his term on the unique results of. e.g. between >> 'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected >> Papers), exhibited by the subject phenomena. American and British >> physicists originated the coinage 'uncertainty principle.' CP >> P.S. Please, I do not want to enter this discussion because it has no >> relevance to what I am doing now and I'm tired of arguing and being >> misunderstood on the topic especially after having devoted so many years >> to it. There used to be several articles of mine touching upon this >> subject on the net the most conspicuous at Science As Cultture. You can >> argue with that ghost.* >> >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:39:29 +0200 >From: "Anny Ballardini" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <002a01c537b3$4e685060$78df3052 at yourpk9x5fuc06> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ is >rarely used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' >Corner, maybe only Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in >her haiku or "similar" haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it >is a kind of writing that is mainly connected with an open use of >this word. I was also touched by Creeley's _love_ and tried to >process it. > >His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, >someone defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he >is. What I can praise is that in all the mails I read on him in >these days, people tried to be good, and were able to communicate >this positive feeling. > > >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. >Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:19 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley > > > I'm going retract my last statement...the word > "instructive" was not correct, at least when it > comes to Creeley. I don't read him that way. > I started with a pointed observation about love poets, > like Creeley, and their 'itinerancy' when it comes to > committed love, and that's about all I can say without > going into territory I know nothing about, particularly > when it comes to Creeley. > I also want to stay away from too simplistic a view > of love...and all things that cause people to fall > out it. Certainly many of the great love poems > are based as much in the lapses & the losses. > of love in course of life. > Finnegan > > > In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:20:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, >cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > > > Do you think Creeley so presumes? > I don't.... > I guess I think of it as him talking to himself, trying to >convince himself, etc-- > i.e. writing as an aid to memory.... > > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley > Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:17 PM > > > > In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, >cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > > > or that not being able to making it stick is > perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... > > > > > > Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote > an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even > tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce > so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) > right? > Finnegan _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/e180ce39/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 8 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:45:12 -0600 >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" >Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402124105.028fbaa0 at mail.ilstu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Yes well now after Anny's post on the quality of RC's love I feel as if >I've done him an injustice by mentioning that for me even his wrestling >with love is not enough. Let me back out of this gently, and with apologies >toward RC too -- for who am I to judge how anyone wrestles with this great >angel we call love. > >I am ashamed -- and frankly have been harmed greatly recently by my own >wrestling with it and feel very bruised -- such that even Creeley was not >help. > >So there is my excuse, if you will take it. > >Gabriel > >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > >At 12:39 PM 4/2/2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: >>Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ is rarely >>used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' Corner, maybe only >>Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in her haiku or "similar" >>haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it is a kind of writing that is >>mainly connected with an open use of this word. I was also touched by > >Creeley's _love_ and tried to process it. >> >>His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, someone >>defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he is. What I can >>praise is that in all the mails I read on him in these days, people tried > >to be good, and were able to communicate this positive feeling. >> >> >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/0a2e98a1/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 9 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:08:54 -0800 >From: "Chris Stroffolino " >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <200504021847.j32Il4eU118634 at pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Gabe--- > > I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his >> work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also >> strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm displayed in >> his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. >> > >A question here, and feel free to take your time to answer it, >but if you see emotional harm in his work, >is it because you feel harmed by it personally? >If not, to whom do you see the harm directed? >What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know? > >Chris > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 10 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:10:32 -0800 >From: "Chris Stroffolino " >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <200504021848.j32Il4eW118634 at pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > >---------- >From: Gabriel Gudding >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >Date: Sat, Apr 2, 2005, 10:09 AM > > >Cldn't resist popping up again, Chris, to flesh out my own pos below (and >maybe I'll serve only to obscure it) but I have good reason (believe me) to >be aware and skeptical of the kinds of harm that can come when that mix of >desire and contention which we call "romantic love" is confused with love -- >and I see/saw that in Creeley's work. I was struck, in rereading these past >few days, by something very adolescent about the formulations of love in his >work -- he seems at times almost to be working I think in emotional modes >and registers constructed as "literary" -- and I wouldn't want to base an >emotional life on them personally. > >Gabe----A fee more questions--- > Do you think Creeley's poetry (or perhaps poetry in general) is asking you >to base your emotional life on it? When you write your own poems are you >writing them with the intention of wanting someone else to base his or her >emotional life on them? If one is to turn to a poem, say by Gabriel Gudding, >to be instructed in the proper non-adolescent forms of love, would that be a >response you, as a poet, would appreciate? And what, in your opinion, then, >is it? > >I may be skeptical but I'm open to what you have to say if you choose to say >anything specific or flesh things out a little more, and I certainly am not >accusing you of lack of patience with emotional indulgence, just wanting to >get some clarification. > > >Chris > > > > >So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to >see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for >the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience on >my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you are, >just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find something, >well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way Brautigan was, I >guess, altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and hapless buffoon like >RB does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind "ritual cleansing" >but I don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at times merely reifying >those emotional games rather than washing them away. > >I am basing this on my memories of my readings in the past few days and >havent a text here with me and I am unwilling to go hunting for electrical >versions online, which are in abundance I know, because these are almost >always removed from the contexts of their original books and as such are >almost like electrical floating Rorschachs -- and because of this I admit >that the above might just be a shadow cast more by my own skepticisms and >notions about love than those found in Creeley's poems, so take it, you >know, cum grano salis or whatever - g > ><"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) is >not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, and a >failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual respect -- >just need and want and, ultimately, blame. > >But hey it makes for the great gritty emotional fiction we call "love >poetry." > >Gabriel>> > >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/d561253b/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 11 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:02:36 +0200 >From: "Anny Ballardini" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <006401c537b6$88e40e70$78df3052 at yourpk9x5fuc06> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >And I apologize for my post if it brought to this answer by Gabriel >Gudding. I was following perfectly that adoloscent love he mentions, >with both sides. And I do not think that Creeley for that matter was >not conscious of everything. To say the opposite would be to >diminish him. > >Anny Ballardini > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gabriel Gudding > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views ; NewPoetry: >Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:45 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley > > > Yes well now after Anny's post on the quality of RC's love I feel >as if I've done him an injustice by mentioning that for me even his >wrestling with love is not enough. Let me back out of this gently, >and with apologies toward RC too -- for who am I to judge how anyone >wrestles with this great angel we call love. > > I am ashamed -- and frankly have been harmed greatly recently by >my own wrestling with it and feel very bruised -- such that even >Creeley was not help. > > So there is my excuse, if you will take it. > > Gabriel > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > At 12:39 PM 4/2/2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ >is rarely used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' >Corner, maybe only Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in >her haiku or "similar" haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it >is a kind of writing that is mainly connected with an open use of >this word. I was also touched by Creeley's _love_ and tried to >process it. > > His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, >someone defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he >is. What I can praise is that in all the mails I read on him in >these days, people tried to be good, and were able to communicate >this positive feeling. > > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/8ec90943/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 12 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:27:08 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] Bohred by quantum theory, try poetry >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <1d5.39797e8e.2f804c0c at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >> e.g. between >> 'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected >> Papers), > > >When it comes to atoms, language can be used only as in poetry. The poet, >too, is not nearly so concerned with describing facts as with creating images. >It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. >Physics concerns what we say about Nature. (Niels Bohr, 1885-1962, on Quantum >Theory) > >-- >Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot >possibly have understood it. (Niels Bohr on Quantum Physics) >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/7ae8d41c/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 13 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:41:25 -0600 >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" >Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402124906.02b7e9f0 at mail.ilstu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Chris, > >This is a great brace of questions. My idea regarding "harm" is less a beef >with Creeley per se as it is with the wider, cultural, formulations about >love evident not only in RC but in scores of western writers. > >Yr questions: > ><is it because you feel harmed by it personally?>> > >I think there is something structurally awry, yes, with the formulations of >desire coded into our culture -- and my reading of Creeley brought this to >mind, yes -- and though Creeley's work per se is not personally harmful to >me anymore than desire represented in commercials is, I do feel that his >poems do not Question or underscore the more harmful ideology of romantic >love so much as they participate in it and make art out of it. Part of the >reason for this is maybe that we are taught to appreciate the >verisimilitude of love in poetry more so than any other genre . > ><What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know?>> > >Directed toward any reader who uncritically admires or is taken in by the >verisimilitude of such emotional formulations -- who transits from his pain >or his partner's pain to aesthetic pleasure and thereby might be taught >that this is the round and extent of loving possible -- that it need always >end in pain or blame or brief joy followed by regret -- rather than in >equanimity and compassion for the other. > >How do I know it's harmful? I guess because I am not a disinterested >reader, I guess. Because I've suffered myself from this kind of loving, is >one way of answering that. I have seen too much of the painful stuff (in >the past few years) and too little of real compassion and equanimity to >have much patience with ANY writer following the great river of conventions >we call love poetry. So this may be unsatisfactory to you, because I think >you want to call me back into Creeley whereas I keep kiting out here in the >structural ends of it all -- so I see RC as a part of a larger emotional >structure, such that he is operating inside an emotional ideology and that >I find it dubious -- and > >and here's the rub for me with regard to all that above: that the >conventional response when a poet like this dies is to admire what is lost, >but I feel that Creeley purposefully did not write his love poems to be >admired: he wrote them (I feel) to show that what we call love is hard and >harrowing -- and sometimes rewarding -- and that, to my mind, what his >lifework shows is that I do not in any way want to emulate his failures in >love -- and especially not his love poems -- and I think he would be >pleased with that response in me -- and I think his work tries honestly to >wrestle this stuff out but keeps succumbing to requirements of western >literary convention. I think, eg, his poem "Ballad of the Despairing >Husband" is all about this. > >Gabriel > >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > > >At 01:08 PM 4/2/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >>Gabe--- >> >> I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his >> > work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also >> > strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm >>displayed in >> > his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. >> > >> >>A question here, and feel free to take your time to answer it, >>but if you see emotional harm in his work, >>is it because you feel harmed by it personally? >>If not, to whom do you see the harm directed? >>What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know? >> >>Chris >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >__________________ >Gabriel Gudding >Department of English >Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790 >office 309.438.5284 >gmguddi at ilstu.edu > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 14 >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 14:20:30 -0600 >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" >Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402135037.028f48c8 at mail.ilstu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >At 01:10 PM 4/2/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > > >><> Do you think Creeley's poetry (or perhaps poetry in general) is asking >> you to base your emotional life on it?>> > >No, I don't, and my last post I think addresses this (and I know you didn't >see that before you sent this). I don't know that that's what poems do -- >but there is something about the way poetry is coveted in our culture, >especially by other poets, that can invite this. I'm not "worried" about >it or anything. > >><>wanting someone else to base his or her emotional life on them? If one is >>to turn to a poem, say by Gabriel Gudding, to be instructed in the proper >>non-adolescent forms of love, would that be a response you, as a poet, >>would appreciate? And what, in your opinion, then, is it?>> > > >Okay I am beginning to feel the heat now, Chris. I don't think there is >anything instructive in my first book. The poems ithere are made of insult, >invective, scatology, belittling myself etc, and sometimes desire -- such >that I wd hope no one wd turn toward my poems with some need to be >instructed about how to live -- I don't think that's the function of a book >like my first book. But I never wrote a book called _For Love_ either. > >I think a more honest response to yr questions right now wd be for me to go >back and reread _For Love_. That may take me a few days. Thnx for yr >questions -- they're good ones and I'm sorry if i didn't do justice to >them, for you -- or anyone. I suspect my reading of his work is merely >falling into a caricature of him that I've crafted in my own mind while >safely away from his books: It occurs to me I could just as easily read >"Ballad of teh Despairing Husband" in light of its purposefully belabored >meter as a comment on exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about here. > >Thanks for the exchange, Chris, which with you is always instructive. >g >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/815bbbf4/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 15 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:46:39 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] the language comedown >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <105.5e14ad36.2f805eaf at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >In a message dated 4/2/2005 12:18:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk writes: > >> there is an equivalence between Heisenberg's uncertaintly principle, >> G??del's incompleteness theorem, and the ???language games??? Wittgenstein >> speaks >> of in Philosophical Investigations. That is not to say that the one explains > > the other. >> > >Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new >theories that describe what the universe is to ask the question why. On the >other hand, the people whose business it is to ask why, the philosophers, have >not been able to keep up with the advance of scientific theories. In the >eighteenth century, philosophers considered the whole of human >knowledge, including >science, to be their field and discussed questions such as: Did the universe >have a beginning? However, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, science >became too technical and mathematical for philosophers, or anyone else except >a few specialists Philosophers reduced the scope of their inquiries so much >that Wittgenstein, the most famous philosopher of this century, >said, "the sole >remaining task for philosophy is the analysis of language." What a comedown >from the great tradition of philosophy from Aristotle to Kant! > >Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/606d7835/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 16 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:27:04 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] hiring a new Program Coordinator >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <12c.5af0c13e.2f806828 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Date: 3/30/2005 9:06:24 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu >To: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu > > >Dear friends: > >We at the Kelly Writers House are hiring a new Program Coordinator, and we >are now accepting applications. The job begins July 1 and is a full-time >position, with full benefits, at the University of Pennsylvania. If you are >interested in applying, or know someone who might be interested, please read >the full description here: >? ? ? ? >? ? ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/programcoordinator.html > >To apply, please review the description and then send a cover letter and >resume to Jennifer Snead, Director, Kelly Writers House, University of >Pennsylvania, 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6150. > >The deadline for applications is 5 PM on Monday, April 25, 2005, and all >finalists will be interviewed on May 9, 2005. > >Applicants are strongly urged to tour the Kelly Writers House web site: > >? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh > >The position is also identified on the Penn Human Resources site. Go to > >? ? ? ? https://jobs.hr.upenn.edu/ > >and search for reference number 050317002.? ? > > >Al Filreis >Kelly Professor of English >Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House >Director, the Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing >University of Pennsylvania >http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/07a7c53f/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 17 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:42:41 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <194.3bf070e4.2f806bd1 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >In a message dated 4/2/2005 1:09:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, >gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > >> So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to >> see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for >> the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience on >> my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you are, >> just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find something, >> well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way Brautigan >>was, I guess, >> altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and hapless buffoon like RB > > does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind "ritual >cleansing" but I >> don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at times merely reifying those >> emotional games rather than washing them away. >> > >Could there a be a connection to E. E. Cummngs' love poetry? >When the word "adolescent" was raised in this context, I felt >the notions expressed by Creeley in his love poetry at times have >a similar cast. There's always that fuzzy dividing line between >a kind of open-faced/open-hearted innocence and what we'd >call naive or underdeveloped, in a negative sense. >Finnegan >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/6994bcc2/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 18 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:54:08 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad form, for sure >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <80.24dbfb81.2f806e80 at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >A poet I know got divorced in the last couple >years. No big story that. But one of his former wife's >most bitter (& justifiable) complaints against him >was that she'd found evidence that he'd given the >other woman the same exact love poem he'd written >to her some years before. > >Had he studied The Merry Wives of Windsor he might >have known the pique that can cause. >Finnegan >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/5a2820dd/attachment.html > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 4 >***************************************** -- From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 20:48:45 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:48:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <148.41bac1cd.2f80a57d@aol.com> In a message dated 4/2/2005 7:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, elemenope at icubed.com writes: > Creeley had the most singular talent a poet can have: he had this > knack for getting people to listen to him as he reflected in public. > As we listened, our language was honed. Certain words of his became > our own: "Apropos," for instance, but this wasn't the only one. > Another one was, "Wow." > > More than any of the poets who were our teachers, it was Creeley who > taught by example what we Americans term: "Kool." > > "Still waters run deep," was a cliche he knew applied to himself. > > Creeley was a jazz human clarinet. > > He knew how to dot the very moment you shared with an expert index finger > tip. > And look you in the eye with his one eye. And with you, be here. > > ---- > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n > Richard, at last, I concur with what you've said wholeheartedly. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 2 21:14:03 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:14:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] probably Message-ID: <1c8.25e6fdbd.2f80ab6b@aol.com> Many of the philosophical issues in statistical mechanics center around the notion of probability as it appears in the theory. How are these probabilities to be understood? What justified choosing one probability distribution rather than another? How are the probabilities to be used in making predictions within the theory? How are they to be used to provide explanations of the observed phenomena? And how are the probability distributions themselves to receive an explanatory account? That is, what is the nature of the physical world that is responsible for the correct probabilities playing the successful role that they do play in the theory? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 3 11:31:49 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:31:49 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] probably References: <1c8.25e6fdbd.2f80ab6b@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c53862$419dfab0$35a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> These are all interesting questions. A random casualty could be the easiest answer. A predestination would be too religious or superstitious. I would rather prefer the second though, and the more experience I am able to acquire, the more I am keen to think that there are fixed highways within which things/events/and major actions develop. Predictability can be studied, and some dedicate their lives to it, with narrow margins of error. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 4:14 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] probably Many of the philosophical issues in statistical mechanics center around the notion of probability as it appears in the theory. How are these probabilities to be understood? What justified choosing one probability distribution rather than another? How are the probabilities to be used in making predictions within the theory? How are they to be used to provide explanations of the observed phenomena? And how are the probability distributions themselves to receive an explanatory account? That is, what is the nature of the physical world that is responsible for the correct probabilities playing the successful role that they do play in the theory? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 3 12:39:12 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:39:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's Animals, audio download Message-ID: <1f2.6ddb4c3.2f817630@aol.com> http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/poetica/stories/s1330894.htm Larkin's Animals Saturday 2 April 2005 Listen | Help with listening The poetry of Philip Larkin Philip Arthur Larkin is probably best remembered for his lyrical evocation of everyday life and while his lyrical poetry continues to grow in popularity, animals will continue to benefit. When he died Larkin bequeathed half of his estate to the RSPCA. He was interested in the animal world as part of nature and often used animals as an image or simile where animals stand as metaphors for existence. Apart from using animals as metaphors in verse or as a device in which to externalise his feelings, he also used verse to draw attention to their plight, as in the poem "Ape Experiment Room" where he demonstrated strong feelings about animal welfare with angry indictments of human callousness. In another of his poems "Wires" about cattle, he captured the pathos of demestic animals in the fields. Larkin was born on August 9, 1922 in Coventry. He attended the City's King Henry VIII School between 1930 and 1940 and then at St. John's College, Oxford, where he became a librarian and finally went to Hull in 1955 as Librarian at the University's Brynmore Jones Library. It was in October of that year that "The Less Deceived" was published. It was this collection that would be the foundation of his reputation as one of the foremost figures in 20th Century poetry. His last collection "High Windows" was published in 1974. Larkin received many awards in recognition of his writing, especially in his later years. In 1975 he was awarded the CBE, and in 1976 was given the German Shakespeare-Pries. In 1978 he was made Companion of Literature and in 1985 was awarded the much prized Order of the Companion of Honour. He died of cancer on December 2, 1985 aged 63. In this program we hear a selection of Larkin's animal poems including At Grass, Ape Experiment Room, Wires, To My Wife amongst several others. The reader is Roger Newcombe with commentary by Jill Hamilton. Producer/Director: Krystyna Kubiak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 3 12:48:24 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:48:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Third Day NPM: Franz Wright Message-ID: <13d.1065ea69.2f817858@aol.com> The following two poems both appear in Franz Wright's collection WALKING TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD, winner of the 2004 Pulitzer Prize in Poetry. *************************************** My Place ?????for Beth Rain land, walnut blossoms raining white where I walk at sixteen bright light in the north wind Still sleeping bees at the grove's heart (my heart's) till the sun its "wake now" kiss, the million friendly gold huddlings and burrowings of them hearing the shining wind I hear, my only cure for the loneliness I go through: more. I believe that one day the distance between myself and God will disappear. *** On Earth Ressurection of the little apple tree outside my window, leaf- light of late in the April called her eyes, forget forget? but how How does one go about dying? Who on earth is going to teach me? The world is filled with people who have never died ***************************************From WALKING TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD by Franz Wright. ? 2003 by Franz Wright. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** Related links: About WALKING TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjAS0DXKYc0Wa0dyJ0Eh About Franz Wright: http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=33786 Read a review of WALKING TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjAS0DXKYc0Wa0dyK0Ei View an interactive map of Martha's Vineyard: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjAS0DXKYc0Wa0dyL0Ej Read more Franz Wright and listen to him read aloud: http://randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/franzwright/poem.html Discuss "My Place" and "On Earth" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjAS0DXKYc0Wa0TtQ0ET *************************************** ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sat Apr 2 22:45:50 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:45:50 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Creeley In-Reply-To: <200504031600.j33G030t011000@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200504031600.j33G030t011000@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: At 12:00 PM -0400 4/3/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: >Richard, at last, I concur with what you've said wholeheartedly. >Finnegan Finnegan is the greatest poet on earth. Sagacious. His rapier wit is matched by an unerring way with every verse form sung by all of his predecessors who, I just have to observe, seem to have existed only to prepare the way for his manifestation in literature. Kind. Invisible. Immortal. Borgesian. Shakespearean. Divine! >Creeley had the most singular talent a poet can have: he had this >knack for getting people to listen to him as he reflected in public. >As we listened, our language was honed. Certain words of his became >our own: "Apropos," for instance, but this wasn't the only one. >Another one was, "Wow." > >More than any of the poets who were our teachers, it was Creeley who >taught by example what we Americans term: "Kool." > >"Still waters run deep," was a cliche he knew applied to himself. > >Creeley was a jazz human clarinet. > >He knew how to dot the very moment you shared with an expert index finger tip. >And look you in the eye with his one eye. And with you, be here. > >---- > >R i c h a r d D i l l o n >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. What do we know and when did we know it?: Bruno Latour > (JforJames at aol.com) > 2. Creeley (ELEMENOPE Productions) > 3. Re: Creeley (JforJames at aol.com) > 4. probably (JforJames at aol.com) > 5. Re: probably (Anny Ballardini) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:19:58 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] What do we know and when did we know it?: Bruno > Latour >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <1a3.30ca170b.2f80748e at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Sorry for over-posting today. I'm in one of my near-manic phases. >I regret to infomr you that NewPoetry has been today renamed the >Science & Philosophy List... >Poetry will remain the last stand of the Metaphysicians. >Finnegan > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067465336X/ref=pd_sim_b_1/104-31 >75128-7363967?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance > > >A scientist friend asked Bruno Latour point-blank: Do you believe in reality? >Taken aback by this strange query, Latour offers his meticulous response in >Pandora's Hope. It is a remarkable argument for understanding the reality of >science in practical terms. In this book Latour, identified by >Richard Rorty as >the new "bete noire of the science worshipers," gives us his most >philosophically informed book since Science in Action. Through case >studies of scientists >in the Amazon analyzing soil and in Pasteur's lab studying the fermentation of >lactic acid, he shows us the myriad steps by which events in the material >world are transformed into items of scientific knowledge. Through >many examples >in the world of technology, we see how the material and human worlds come >together and are reciprocally transformed in this process. Why, >Latour asks, did >the idea of an independent reality, free of human interaction, emerge in the >first place? His answer to this question, harking back to the debates between >Might and Right narrated by Plato, points to the real stakes in the so-called >science wars: the perplexed submission of ordinary people before the warring >forces of claimants to the ultimate truth. > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/233c5270/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:57:55 +0800 >From: ELEMENOPE Productions >Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" > >Creeley had the most singular talent a poet can have: he had this >knack for getting people to listen to him as he reflected in public. >As we listened, our language was honed. Certain words of his became >our own: "Apropos," for instance, but this wasn't the only one. >Another one was, "Wow." > >More than any of the poets who were our teachers, it was Creeley who >taught by example what we Americans term: "Kool." > >"Still waters run deep," was a cliche he knew applied to himself. > >Creeley was a jazz human clarinet. > >He knew how to dot the very moment you shared with an expert index finger tip. >And look you in the eye with his one eye. And with you, be here. > >---- > >R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > > > >>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>You can reach the person managing the list at >> new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." >> >> >>Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Creeley (JforJames at aol.com) >> 2. Re: girdle, koscher, borsht (Alphaville) >> 3. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) >> 4. Day 2 of NPM: Lucie Brock-Broido (JforJames at aol.com) >> 5. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) >> 6. Re: girdle, koscher, borsht (Robin Hamilton) >> 7. Re: Creeley (Anny Ballardini) >> 8. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) >> 9. Re: Creeley (Chris Stroffolino ) >> 10. Re: Creeley (Chris Stroffolino ) >> 11. Re: Creeley (Anny Ballardini) >> 12. Bohred by quantum theory, try poetry (JforJames at aol.com) >> 13. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) >> 14. Re: Creeley (Gabriel Gudding) >> 15. the language comedown (JforJames at aol.com) >> 16. hiring a new Program Coordinator (JforJames at aol.com) >> 17. Re: Creeley (JforJames at aol.com) >> 18. Bad form, for sure (JforJames at aol.com) >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Message: 1 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:19:17 EST >>From: JforJames at aol.com >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Message-ID: <1da.3974efd9.2f802e15 at aol.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >>I'm going retract my last statement...the word >>"instructive" was not correct, at least when it >>comes to Creeley. I don't read him that way. >>I started with a pointed observation about love poets, >>like Creeley, and their 'itinerancy' when it comes to >>committed love, and that's about all I can say without >>going into territory I know nothing about, particularly >>when it comes to Creeley. >>I also want to stay away from too simplistic a view >>of love...and all things that cause people to fall >>out it. Certainly many of the great love poems >>are based as much in the lapses & the losses. >>of love in course of life. >>Finnegan >> >> >>In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:20:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >> >>> Do you think Creeley so presumes? >>> I don't.... >>> I guess I think of it as him talking to himself, trying to >>>convince himself, >>> etc-- >>> i.e. writing as an aid to memory.... >>> >>> ---------- >>> From: JforJames at aol.com >>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>> Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:17 PM >>> >>> >>> >> In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>>> cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >>>> >>>> >>> or that not being able to making it stick is >>>>> perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote >>>> an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even > >>> tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce >>>> so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) >>>> right? >>>> Finnegan _______________________________________________ >>> >> >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/7ec2b430/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 2 > >Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:23:41 -0500 >>From: Alphaville >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >>Message-ID: <424ED51D.2040604 at ix.netcom.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> >> >>For the sake of clarity in this strain, the term Heisenberg used was >>*'Unbestimmtheitsrelation' or 'indeterminancy relation.'--- see Kurt >>Huebner. Heisenberg intends no "uncertainty" nor "principle" in his >>**Unbestimmtheitsrelation*. Forced to use a term to represent a set of >>mathematical calculations derived from 'idealized' (Bohr's term), >>*that is mathematically formalized, and 'unvizualizable' (again Bohr's >>term) experience, empirical but instrumented reason, Heisenberg focused >>his term on the unique results of. e.g. between >>'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected >>Papers), exhibited by the subject phenomena. American and British >>physicists originated the coinage 'uncertainty principle.' CP >>P.S. Please, I do not want to enter this discussion because it has no >>relevance to what I am doing now and I'm tired of arguing and being >>misunderstood on the topic especially after having devoted so many years >>to it. There used to be several articles of mine touching upon this >>subject on the net the most conspicuous at Science As Cultture. You can >>argue with that ghost.* >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 3 >>Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:26:36 -0600 >>From: Gabriel Gudding >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >>Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402110738.024fa988 at mail.ilstu.edu> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >> >>Hey Chris. Thanks for your great answer -- was certainly a lot more text >>than I expected in response from you, so I probably won't be able to engage >>your great post with the same generosity with which you engaged my brief >>question to you, but I do wanna say I've also been rereading (and too of >>course some of this reading for the first time) in much of the 4 volumes of >>Creeley's work I have -- and I've been reading to the students in my >>classes as well -- and though I don't have any of the volumes here with me >>in my flat (they're in office) I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his >>work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also >>strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm displayed in >>his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. >> >>Yours is a fantastic post and I'll defer to yr observations as I don' thave >>my books here with me and as what you say just frankly seems well >>considered. I agree w/ you in re the folly of judging the writing via the >>life, as if we can truly know anything of someone's life -- as if this were >>some touchstone not washed through the filter of rumor, gossip, biography >>and memoir, not washed through the lives of others, as if "the life" might >>not already be simultaneously present and absent in the humming and >>imbrications of teh words the guy himself wrote -- so I'll leave that part >>of yr post in which you argue with Finnegan to you and Finnegan. >> >>Gabe >> >>http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >>At 10:01 AM 4/2/2005, you wrote: >> >>>Gabe---Sorry if I sounded flip. And what you wrote below definitely inspired >>>me in a way in that it riled me up, as kind of counter-thesis, that I >>>immediately thought, "okay, I'm familiar with that position in poetry, >>>but is it really, ultimately, applicable to Creeley, whose work I've been > >>reading (perhaps to act out a kind of 'mourning', during my so-called >>>"free time" these last few days)? >>> >>>Certainly some of Creeley's poetry enacts, or wrestles with "blind desire," >>>and "selfishness"---both his own and others---but it doesn't seem so >>>consistently valorized, to me, at least. Compared to many other "love >> >poets," Creeley seems---even in the earlier love poems--to have >>at least as > >>strong of a need/duty to locate love IN marriage as he does to locate it >> >in that "romantic love" as you so define it below; and in fact >>that tension >>>is a large part of what makes his poetry so fascinating, good, and I'd say >>>honest, however "fabricated." >>> >>>Now, granted, we all have a different sense of "emotional boundaires" and if >>>you feel he doesn't respect yours, or if you feel his particular ways of >>>addressing women in the second person, and/or speaking of women in the third >>>(and I mean specifically in the love and/or relationship and/or breakup >>>pieces---to be clear), don't respect theirs, you're certainly entitled to >>>that position, for obviously as a poet yourself, you need to "fabricate" >>>your own ways of "negotiating" these issues, and I respect that. But I just >>>don't think Creeley's poetry, even in FOR LOVE, can simply be reduced to >>>your characterization. Sure, blame of the other is dramatized there, but >>>then often tempered with self-blame as well. Unlike others, who shy away >>>from dramatizing these (what you call) "blind desires," Creeley's quite >>>willing, in his poetry and stories, to use them as a starting point, to >>>work them out---perhaps a kind of "ritual cleansing" and the way I see it >>>the ritual's function is precisely to "RESPECT EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES"--- >>> >>>Of course, it's not perhaps so much with you I have an argument (since >>>you ostensibly were not speaking of Creeley per se) as with Finnegan's >>>initial attempt to bring up a biographical fact as somehow of great >>>significance for considering the value of Creeley's poetry, as if somehow >>>the fact that he had been married three times might somehow invalidate, >>>or otherwise qualify, the poetry. Okay, he was no "ANGEL" as they say, >>>but aside from the fact that I don't think there's any usefulness in >>>putting the man's biography (which most likely none of us know the >>>circumstances enough anyway) on trial, and then reading his poetry through >>>that filter, to me the implication that the mere fact that "being married >>>three times" somehow is a sign of being a "failure in love" seems rather >>>harsh to me. Maybe those who were lucky enough to "get it right the first >>>time," may feel free to sit in judgment; maybe those who don't even try >>>in their poetry (or other forms of writing) to investigate just what is >>>happening in the erotic or domestic relationships that are so centrally >>>important to them can also sit in judgment; and, yes, maybe some feminists >>>have a point (like that woman who allegedly ripped into Creeley for his poem >>>with the image of "split open your head and put/ a candle in/ behind the >>>eyes")--but obviously three different women choose to marry him, and if >>>that's a failure in love, well, tell that to someone who is still pining >>>over a woman or man who divorced him or her 25 years ago, and has never >>>been able to go on a date again.... >>>(okay, not the strongest ending on my part---I'm obviously writing about >>>these issues more, but mostly in my notebooks, and they probably won't be >>>available for public consumption for awhile---though we can continue this >>>conversation if you want).... >>> >>>thanks, >>>Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > sorry, Chris, I don't know what you mean by "the 'go together >>>like a horse >>> > and carriage school.'" What's that? -- explain please if you want. >>> >>>"love," as in the idea of >>> >>"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and >>>valorized there) >>> >>is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, >>> >>and a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual >>> >>respect -- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > At 08:36 PM 4/1/2005, you wrote: >>> >>Ah Gabe--- >>> >> >>> >>I see this has gotten general now, and not about Creeley.... >>> >> Hmmmm......your position seems a little extreme to me, >>> >> do I take this to mean you're of the "go together like a horse >>> >> and carriage" school? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------ > > >>Message: 4 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:51:00 EST >>From: JforJames at aol.com >>Subject: [New-Poetry] Day 2 of NPM: Lucie Brock-Broido >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Message-ID: <192.3cffda6f.2f803584 at aol.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >>For day two, we switch from the film-noir-inspired poetry of Kevin Young to >>an almost medieval, mystic timelessness. >> >>Lucie Brock-Broido's poem "Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory," from her >>collection TROUBLE IN MIND, also bears a connection to film, with the mention >>toward the poem's close of Jean Cocteau's 1946 film La Belle et La B?te, a >>complex retelling of the story of Beauty and the Beast. >> >> >>*************************************** >> >>Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory >> >> >> >>A man takes off his armor past the Iron Age >>And it stands without >> >>??????????The man inside; >>She folds in >> >>The metal garments of his great blank >>Wings of winter. In >> >>Saint Petersburg, the night- >>Engraving churchbells toll and in this >> >>Constant cold I do not know >>If tolling signifies >> >>A death or marrying, hollowed >>Out of frost, or rue, or injury. >> >>??????????The dark is big, filling >>??????????The city with silver >> >>??????????And trouble. You are colder >>Where you are, >> >>Love, curious as the alchemist who keeps >>His salamander living in a flask of fire, while >> >>The will of me, a black reptilian >>Doctor's bag, clicks shut. >> >>???????????????????????????????????My own fealty galls, >>Bewilders me. >> >>In Cocteau, to La B?te's white horse, the Beauty says: >>Go where I am going. And he takes me there. >> >> >>***************************************From TROUBLE IN MIND by Lucie >>Brock-Broido. Copyright ? 2004 by Lucie Brock-Broido. Excerpted by >>permission of >>Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights >>reserved. No part of >>this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in >>writing from >>the publisher. >> >>*************************************** >> >>Related links: >> >>About TROUBLE IN MIND: >>http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0QBU0Ep >> >> About Lucie Brock-Broido: >>http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=3310 >> >> Read a review of TROUBLE IN MIND: >>http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0dWM0EN >> >> Discuss "Girl at the Border of Her Own Allegory" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: >>http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/ji8h0DXKYc0Wa0TtQ0Ee >> >> Learn more about Cocteau's La Belle et La B?te: >>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038348/ >> >> >> >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/fca1ca3d/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 5 >>Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:09:34 -0600 >>From: Gabriel Gudding >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> & Views" >>Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402113135.0295fd88 at mail.ilstu.edu> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >>Cldn't resist popping up again, Chris, to flesh out my own pos below (and >>maybe I'll serve only to obscure it) but I have good reason (believe me) to >>be aware and skeptical of the kinds of harm that can come when that mix of >>desire and contention which we call "romantic love" is confused with love >>-- and I see/saw that in Creeley's work. I was struck, in rereading these >>past few days, by something very adolescent about the formulations of love >>in his work -- he seems at times almost to be working I think in emotional >>modes and registers constructed as "literary" -- and I wouldn't want to > >base an emotional life on them personally. >> >>So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to >>see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for >>the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience >>on my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you > >are, just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find >>something, well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way >>Brautigan was, I guess, altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and >>hapless buffoon like RB does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind >>"ritual cleansing" but I don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at >>times merely reifying those emotional games rather than washing them away. >> >>I am basing this on my memories of my readings in the past few days and >>havent a text here with me and I am unwilling to go hunting for electrical >>versions online, which are in abundance I know, because these are almost >>always removed from the contexts of their original books and as such are >>almost like electrical floating Rorschachs -- and because of this I admit >>that the above might just be a shadow cast more by my own skepticisms and >>notions about love than those found in Creeley's poems, so take it, you >>know, cum grano salis or whatever - g >> >><>"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) >>is not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, and >>a failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual respect >>-- just need and want and, ultimately, blame. >> >>But hey it makes for the great gritty emotional fiction we call >>"love poetry." >> >>Gabriel>> >> >>http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/a266a4b5/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 6 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:32:50 +0100 >>From: "Robin Hamilton" >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >>Message-ID: <014701c537b2$60c55a60$299f9951 at Robin> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >>Whew! >> >>Well, at least we now know who Alphaville is: >> >> http://www.flashpointmag.com/musil.htm >> >>Robin >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Alphaville" >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" >> >>Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:23 PM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] girdle, koscher, borsht >> >> >>> >>> >>> For the sake of clarity in this strain, the term Heisenberg used was >>> *'Unbestimmtheitsrelation' or 'indeterminancy relation.'--- see Kurt >>> Huebner. Heisenberg intends no "uncertainty" nor "principle" in his >>> **Unbestimmtheitsrelation*. Forced to use a term to represent a set of >>> mathematical calculations derived from 'idealized' (Bohr's term), >>> *that is mathematically formalized, and 'unvizualizable' (again Bohr's >>> term) experience, empirical but instrumented reason, Heisenberg focused >>> his term on the unique results of. e.g. between >>> 'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected >>> Papers), exhibited by the subject phenomena. American and British >>> physicists originated the coinage 'uncertainty principle.' CP >>> P.S. Please, I do not want to enter this discussion because it has no >>> relevance to what I am doing now and I'm tired of arguing and being >>> misunderstood on the topic especially after having devoted so many years >>> to it. There used to be several articles of mine touching upon this >>> subject on the net the most conspicuous at Science As Cultture. You can >>> argue with that ghost.* >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 7 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:39:29 +0200 >>From: "Anny Ballardini" >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >>Message-ID: <002a01c537b3$4e685060$78df3052 at yourpk9x5fuc06> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >>Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ is >>rarely used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' >>Corner, maybe only Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in >>her haiku or "similar" haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it >>is a kind of writing that is mainly connected with an open use of >>this word. I was also touched by Creeley's _love_ and tried to >>process it. >> >>His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, >>someone defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he >>is. What I can praise is that in all the mails I read on him in >>these days, people tried to be good, and were able to communicate >>this positive feeling. >> >> >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to >>gather admirers. >>Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: JforJames at aol.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >> >> >> I'm going retract my last statement...the word >> "instructive" was not correct, at least when it >> comes to Creeley. I don't read him that way. >> I started with a pointed observation about love poets, >> like Creeley, and their 'itinerancy' when it comes to >> committed love, and that's about all I can say without >> going into territory I know nothing about, particularly >> when it comes to Creeley. >> I also want to stay away from too simplistic a view >> of love...and all things that cause people to fall >> out it. Certainly many of the great love poems >> are based as much in the lapses & the losses. >> of love in course of life. >> Finnegan >> >> >> In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:20:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >> >> >> Do you think Creeley so presumes? >> I don't.... >> I guess I think of it as him talking to himself, trying to >>convince himself, etc-- >> i.e. writing as an aid to memory.... >> >> ---------- >> From: JforJames at aol.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >> Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2005, 5:17 PM >> >> >> >> In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >> >> >> or that not being able to making it stick is >> perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... >> >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote >> an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even >> tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce >> so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) >> right? >> Finnegan _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/e180ce39/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 8 >>Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:45:12 -0600 >>From: Gabriel Gudding >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> & Views" >>Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402124105.028fbaa0 at mail.ilstu.edu> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >>Yes well now after Anny's post on the quality of RC's love I feel as if >>I've done him an injustice by mentioning that for me even his wrestling >>with love is not enough. Let me back out of this gently, and with apologies >>toward RC too -- for who am I to judge how anyone wrestles with this great >>angel we call love. > > >>I am ashamed -- and frankly have been harmed greatly recently by my own >>wrestling with it and feel very bruised -- such that even Creeley was not >>help. >> >>So there is my excuse, if you will take it. >> >>Gabriel >> >>http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> >>At 12:39 PM 4/2/2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: >>>Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ is rarely >>>used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' Corner, maybe only >>>Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in her haiku or "similar" >>>haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it is a kind of writing that is >>>mainly connected with an open use of this word. I was also touched by >> >Creeley's _love_ and tried to process it. >>> >>>His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, someone >>>defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he is. What I can >>>praise is that in all the mails I read on him in these days, people tried >> >to be good, and were able to communicate this positive feeling. >>> >>> >>>Anny Ballardini >>>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/0a2e98a1/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 9 >>Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:08:54 -0800 >>From: "Chris Stroffolino " >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >>Message-ID: <200504021847.j32Il4eU118634 at pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> >>Gabe--- >> >> I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his >>> work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also >>> strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm >>>displayed in >>> his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. >>> >> >>A question here, and feel free to take your time to answer it, >>but if you see emotional harm in his work, >>is it because you feel harmed by it personally? >>If not, to whom do you see the harm directed? >>What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know? >> >>Chris >> >> >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 10 >>Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 11:10:32 -0800 >>From: "Chris Stroffolino " >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >>Message-ID: <200504021848.j32Il4eW118634 at pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> >>---------- >>From: Gabriel Gudding >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>, "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >>Views" >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>Date: Sat, Apr 2, 2005, 10:09 AM >> >> >>Cldn't resist popping up again, Chris, to flesh out my own pos below (and >>maybe I'll serve only to obscure it) but I have good reason (believe me) to >>be aware and skeptical of the kinds of harm that can come when that mix of >>desire and contention which we call "romantic love" is confused with love -- >>and I see/saw that in Creeley's work. I was struck, in rereading these past >>few days, by something very adolescent about the formulations of love in his >>work -- he seems at times almost to be working I think in emotional modes >>and registers constructed as "literary" -- and I wouldn't want to base an >>emotional life on them personally. >> >>Gabe----A fee more questions--- >> Do you think Creeley's poetry (or perhaps poetry in general) is asking you >>to base your emotional life on it? When you write your own poems are you >>writing them with the intention of wanting someone else to base his or her > >emotional life on them? If one is to turn to a poem, say by Gabriel Gudding, >>to be instructed in the proper non-adolescent forms of love, would that be a >>response you, as a poet, would appreciate? And what, in your opinion, then, >>is it? >> >>I may be skeptical but I'm open to what you have to say if you choose to say > >anything specific or flesh things out a little more, and I certainly am not >>accusing you of lack of patience with emotional indulgence, just wanting to >>get some clarification. >> >> >>Chris >> >> >> >> >>So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to >>see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western conventions for >>the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of patience on >>my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you are, >>just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I find something, >>well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way Brautigan was, I >>guess, altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and hapless buffoon like >>RB does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind "ritual cleansing" >>but I don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at times merely reifying >>those emotional games rather than washing them away. >> >>I am basing this on my memories of my readings in the past few days and >>havent a text here with me and I am unwilling to go hunting for electrical >>versions online, which are in abundance I know, because these are almost >>always removed from the contexts of their original books and as such are >>almost like electrical floating Rorschachs -- and because of this I admit >>that the above might just be a shadow cast more by my own skepticisms and >>notions about love than those found in Creeley's poems, so take it, you >>know, cum grano salis or whatever - g >> >><>"romantic love" fabricated so principally in poetry (and valorized there) is >>not conducive to marriage. It is based in blind desire, selfishness, and a >>failure to respect emotional boundaries. It's not based in mutual respect -- >>just need and want and, ultimately, blame. >> >>But hey it makes for the great gritty emotional fiction we call "love >>poetry." >> >>Gabriel>> >> >>http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/d561253b/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 11 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:02:36 +0200 >>From: "Anny Ballardini" >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >>Message-ID: <006401c537b6$88e40e70$78df3052 at yourpk9x5fuc06> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >>And I apologize for my post if it brought to this answer by Gabriel >>Gudding. I was following perfectly that adoloscent love he mentions, >>with both sides. And I do not think that Creeley for that matter was >>not conscious of everything. To say the opposite would be to >>diminish him. >> >>Anny Ballardini >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Gabriel Gudding >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views ; NewPoetry: >>Contemporary Poetry News &Views >> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >> >> >> Yes well now after Anny's post on the quality of RC's love I feel >>as if I've done him an injustice by mentioning that for me even his >>wrestling with love is not enough. Let me back out of this gently, >>and with apologies toward RC too -- for who am I to judge how anyone >>wrestles with this great angel we call love. >> >> I am ashamed -- and frankly have been harmed greatly recently by >>my own wrestling with it and feel very bruised -- such that even >>Creeley was not help. >> >> So there is my excuse, if you will take it. > > >> Gabriel >> >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> >> At 12:39 PM 4/2/2005, Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> Thank you instead for having brought it up. A word like _love_ >>is rarely used now. Among the poets that I feature on the Poets' >>Corner, maybe only Deborah Russell used it, and again, perhaps in > >her haiku or "similar" haiku forms. When I talk of "bad poetry", it >>is a kind of writing that is mainly connected with an open use of >>this word. I was also touched by Creeley's _love_ and tried to >>process it. >> >> His disappearance has brought to many recollections on lists, >>someone defined him _a man of company_ and that is probably how he >>is. What I can praise is that in all the mails I read on him in >>these days, people tried to be good, and were able to communicate >>this positive feeling. >> >> >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/8ec90943/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 12 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:27:08 EST >>From: JforJames at aol.com >>Subject: [New-Poetry] Bohred by quantum theory, try poetry >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Message-ID: <1d5.39797e8e.2f804c0c at aol.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >>> e.g. between >>> 'position'/'momentum', 'wave'/'particle (again see Bohr Collected >>> Papers), >> >> >>When it comes to atoms, language can be used only as in poetry. The poet, >>too, is not nearly so concerned with describing facts as with >>creating images. >>It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. >>Physics concerns what we say about Nature. (Niels Bohr, 1885-1962, on Quantum >>Theory) >> >>-- >>Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot >>possibly have understood it. (Niels Bohr on Quantum Physics) >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/7ae8d41c/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 13 >>Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:41:25 -0600 >>From: Gabriel Gudding >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> & Views" >>Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402124906.02b7e9f0 at mail.ilstu.edu> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >> >>Chris, >> >>This is a great brace of questions. My idea regarding "harm" is less a beef >>with Creeley per se as it is with the wider, cultural, formulations about >>love evident not only in RC but in scores of western writers. >> >>Yr questions: >> >><>is it because you feel harmed by it personally?>> >> >>I think there is something structurally awry, yes, with the formulations of >>desire coded into our culture -- and my reading of Creeley brought this to >>mind, yes -- and though Creeley's work per se is not personally harmful to >>me anymore than desire represented in commercials is, I do feel that his >>poems do not Question or underscore the more harmful ideology of romantic >>love so much as they participate in it and make art out of it. Part of the >>reason for this is maybe that we are taught to appreciate the >>verisimilitude of love in poetry more so than any other genre . >> >><>What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know?>> >> >>Directed toward any reader who uncritically admires or is taken in by the >>verisimilitude of such emotional formulations -- who transits from his pain >>or his partner's pain to aesthetic pleasure and thereby might be taught > >that this is the round and extent of loving possible -- that it need always >>end in pain or blame or brief joy followed by regret -- rather than in >>equanimity and compassion for the other. >> >>How do I know it's harmful? I guess because I am not a disinterested >>reader, I guess. Because I've suffered myself from this kind of loving, is > >one way of answering that. I have seen too much of the painful stuff (in >>the past few years) and too little of real compassion and equanimity to >>have much patience with ANY writer following the great river of conventions >>we call love poetry. So this may be unsatisfactory to you, because I think >>you want to call me back into Creeley whereas I keep kiting out here in the >>structural ends of it all -- so I see RC as a part of a larger emotional >>structure, such that he is operating inside an emotional ideology and that >>I find it dubious -- and >> >>and here's the rub for me with regard to all that above: that the >>conventional response when a poet like this dies is to admire what is lost, >>but I feel that Creeley purposefully did not write his love poems to be >>admired: he wrote them (I feel) to show that what we call love is hard and >>harrowing -- and sometimes rewarding -- and that, to my mind, what his >>lifework shows is that I do not in any way want to emulate his failures in >>love -- and especially not his love poems -- and I think he would be >>pleased with that response in me -- and I think his work tries honestly to >>wrestle this stuff out but keeps succumbing to requirements of western >>literary convention. I think, eg, his poem "Ballad of the Despairing >>Husband" is all about this. >> >>Gabriel >> >>http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >>At 01:08 PM 4/2/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >>>Gabe--- >>> >>> I was again struck by (1) the honesty of his >>> > work (which seems to go together with his at times messiness, which also >>> > strikes me, weirdly, as a carefulness), (2) the emotional harm >>>displayed in >>> > his work, and (3) his attitudes of love. >>> > >>> >>>A question here, and feel free to take your time to answer it, >>>but if you see emotional harm in his work, >>>is it because you feel harmed by it personally? >>>If not, to whom do you see the harm directed? >>>What specifically do you consider harmful, and how do you know? >>> >>>Chris >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>__________________ >>Gabriel Gudding >>Department of English >>Illinois State University >>Normal, IL 61790 >>office 309.438.5284 >>gmguddi at ilstu.edu >> >> >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 14 >>Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 14:20:30 -0600 >>From: Gabriel Gudding >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> & Views" >>Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050402135037.028f48c8 at mail.ilstu.edu> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >>At 01:10 PM 4/2/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >> >> >>><>> Do you think Creeley's poetry (or perhaps poetry in general) is asking >>> you to base your emotional life on it?>> >> >>No, I don't, and my last post I think addresses this (and I know you didn't >>see that before you sent this). I don't know that that's what poems do -- >>but there is something about the way poetry is coveted in our culture, >>especially by other poets, that can invite this. I'm not "worried" about >>it or anything. >> >>><>>wanting someone else to base his or her emotional life on them? If one is >>>to turn to a poem, say by Gabriel Gudding, to be instructed in the proper >>>non-adolescent forms of love, would that be a response you, as a poet, >>>would appreciate? And what, in your opinion, then, is it?>> >> >> >>Okay I am beginning to feel the heat now, Chris. I don't think there is >>anything instructive in my first book. The poems ithere are made of insult, > >invective, scatology, belittling myself etc, and sometimes desire -- such >>that I wd hope no one wd turn toward my poems with some need to be >>instructed about how to live -- I don't think that's the function of a book >>like my first book. But I never wrote a book called _For Love_ either. >> >>I think a more honest response to yr questions right now wd be for me to go > >back and reread _For Love_. That may take me a few days. Thnx for yr >>questions -- they're good ones and I'm sorry if i didn't do justice to >>them, for you -- or anyone. I suspect my reading of his work is merely >>falling into a caricature of him that I've crafted in my own mind while >>safely away from his books: It occurs to me I could just as easily read >>"Ballad of teh Despairing Husband" in light of its purposefully belabored >>meter as a comment on exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about here. >> >>Thanks for the exchange, Chris, which with you is always instructive. >>g >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/815bbbf4/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 15 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:46:39 EST >>From: JforJames at aol.com >>Subject: [New-Poetry] the language comedown >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Message-ID: <105.5e14ad36.2f805eaf at aol.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >>In a message dated 4/2/2005 12:18:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >>peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk writes: >> >>> there is an equivalence between Heisenberg's uncertaintly principle, >>> G??del's incompleteness theorem, and the ???language games??? Wittgenstein >>> speaks >>> of in Philosophical Investigations. That is not to say that the >>>one explains >> > the other. >>> >> >>Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new >>theories that describe what the universe is to ask the question why. On the >>other hand, the people whose business it is to ask why, the >>philosophers, have >>not been able to keep up with the advance of scientific theories. In the >>eighteenth century, philosophers considered the whole of human >>knowledge, including >>science, to be their field and discussed questions such as: Did the universe >>have a beginning? However, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, science >>became too technical and mathematical for philosophers, or anyone else except >>a few specialists Philosophers reduced the scope of their inquiries so much >>that Wittgenstein, the most famous philosopher of this century, >>said, "the sole >>remaining task for philosophy is the analysis of language." What a comedown >>from the great tradition of philosophy from Aristotle to Kant! >> >>Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/606d7835/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 16 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:27:04 EST >>From: JforJames at aol.com >>Subject: [New-Poetry] hiring a new Program Coordinator >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Message-ID: <12c.5af0c13e.2f806828 at aol.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >>Date: 3/30/2005 9:06:24 AM Eastern Standard Time >>From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu >>To: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu >> >> >>Dear friends: >> >>We at the Kelly Writers House are hiring a new Program Coordinator, and we >>are now accepting applications. The job begins July 1 and is a full-time >>position, with full benefits, at the University of Pennsylvania. If you are >>interested in applying, or know someone who might be interested, please read >>the full description here: >>? ? ? ? >>? ? ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/programcoordinator.html >> >>To apply, please review the description and then send a cover letter and >>resume to Jennifer Snead, Director, Kelly Writers House, University of >>Pennsylvania, 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6150. >> >>The deadline for applications is 5 PM on Monday, April 25, 2005, and all >>finalists will be interviewed on May 9, 2005. > > >>Applicants are strongly urged to tour the Kelly Writers House web site: >> >>? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh >> >>The position is also identified on the Penn Human Resources site. Go to >> >>? ? ? ? https://jobs.hr.upenn.edu/ >> >>and search for reference number 050317002.? ? >> >> >>Al Filreis >>Kelly Professor of English >>Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House > >Director, the Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing >>University of Pennsylvania >>http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis >> >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/07a7c53f/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 17 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:42:41 EST >>From: JforJames at aol.com >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Message-ID: <194.3bf070e4.2f806bd1 at aol.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >>In a message dated 4/2/2005 1:09:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: >> >>> So call me utilitarian but I go to poetry for instruction too, not just to >>> see various emotional dramas reenacted according to western >>>conventions for >>> the sake of emotional katharsis. Chalk it up to a severe lack of >>>patience on >>> my part with emotional indulgence if you need to (not saying that you are, >>> just acknowledging that I cd be dismissed that way) -- but I >>>find something, >>> well, adolescent about his love poems -- in the same way Brautigan >>>was, I guess, >>> altho Creeley doesn't play the entertaining and hapless buffoon like RB >> > does. I'm intrigued by yr idea of RC writing a kind "ritual >>cleansing" but I >>> don't know how that works -- seems to me he's at times merely >>>reifying those >>> emotional games rather than washing them away. >>> >> >>Could there a be a connection to E. E. Cummngs' love poetry? >>When the word "adolescent" was raised in this context, I felt >>the notions expressed by Creeley in his love poetry at times have >>a similar cast. There's always that fuzzy dividing line between >>a kind of open-faced/open-hearted innocence and what we'd >>call naive or underdeveloped, in a negative sense. >>Finnegan >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/6994bcc2/attachment-0001.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>Message: 18 >>Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:54:08 EST >>From: JforJames at aol.com >>Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad form, for sure >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Message-ID: <80.24dbfb81.2f806e80 at aol.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >>A poet I know got divorced in the last couple >>years. No big story that. But one of his former wife's >>most bitter (& justifiable) complaints against him >>was that she'd found evidence that he'd given the >>other woman the same exact love poem he'd written >>to her some years before. >> >>Had he studied The Merry Wives of Windsor he might >>have known the pique that can cause. >>Finnegan >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/5a2820dd/attachment.html >> >>------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 4 >>***************************************** > > >-- > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:48:45 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <148.41bac1cd.2f80a57d at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >In a message dated 4/2/2005 7:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, >elemenope at icubed.com writes: > >> Creeley had the most singular talent a poet can have: he had this >> knack for getting people to listen to him as he reflected in public. >> As we listened, our language was honed. Certain words of his became >> our own: "Apropos," for instance, but this wasn't the only one. > > Another one was, "Wow." >> >> More than any of the poets who were our teachers, it was Creeley who >> taught by example what we Americans term: "Kool." >> >> "Still waters run deep," was a cliche he knew applied to himself. >> >> Creeley was a jazz human clarinet. >> >> He knew how to dot the very moment you shared with an expert index finger > > tip. >> And look you in the eye with his one eye. And with you, be here. >> >> ---- >> >> R i c h a r d D i l l o n >> > >Richard, at last, I concur with what you've said wholeheartedly. >Finnegan >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/4866b343/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:14:03 EST >From: JforJames at aol.com >Subject: [New-Poetry] probably >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Message-ID: <1c8.25e6fdbd.2f80ab6b at aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Many of the philosophical issues in statistical mechanics center around the >notion of probability as it appears in the theory. How are these probabilities >to be understood? What justified choosing one probability distribution rather >than another? How are the probabilities to be used in making predictions >within the theory? How are they to be used to provide explanations >of the observed >phenomena? And how are the probability distributions themselves to receive an >explanatory account? That is, what is the nature of the physical world that is >responsible for the correct probabilities playing the successful role that >they do play in the theory? > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050402/1c2024d2/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:31:49 +0200 >From: "Anny Ballardini" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] probably >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Message-ID: <002d01c53862$419dfab0$35a93852 at yourpk9x5fuc06> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >These are all interesting questions. A random casualty could be the >easiest answer. A predestination would be too religious or >superstitious. I would rather prefer the second though, and the more >experience I am able to acquire, the more I am keen to think that >there are fixed highways within which things/events/and major >actions develop. Predictability can be studied, and some dedicate >their lives to it, with narrow margins of error. > >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. >Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 4:14 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] probably > > > Many of the philosophical issues in statistical mechanics center >around the notion of probability as it appears in the theory. How >are these probabilities to be understood? What justified choosing >one probability distribution rather than another? How are the >probabilities to be used in making predictions within the theory? >How are they to be used to provide explanations of the observed >phenomena? And how are the probability distributions themselves to >receive an explanatory account? That is, what is the nature of the >physical world that is responsible for the correct probabilities >playing the successful role that they do play in the theory? > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050403/7607d54f/attachment-0001.html > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 5 >***************************************** -- From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 3 13:30:30 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:30:30 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Creeley References: <200504031600.j33G030t011000@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <002b01c53872$d57a0ca0$35a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> I also think that James Finnegan is hiding some marvelous talents, cheers to Dillon who got it straight. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Creeley > At 12:00 PM -0400 4/3/05, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: >>Richard, at last, I concur with what you've said wholeheartedly. >>Finnegan > > > Finnegan is the greatest poet on earth. Sagacious. His rapier wit is > matched by an unerring way with every verse form sung by all of his > predecessors who, I just have to observe, seem to have existed only to > prepare the way for his manifestation in literature. Kind. Invisible. > Immortal. Borgesian. Shakespearean. Divine! > > >>Creeley had the most singular talent a poet can have: he had this >>knack for getting people to listen to him as he reflected in public. >>As we listened, our language was honed. Certain words of his became >>our own: "Apropos," for instance, but this wasn't the only one. >>Another one was, "Wow." >> >>More than any of the poets who were our teachers, it was Creeley who >>taught by example what we Americans term: "Kool." >> >>"Still waters run deep," was a cliche he knew applied to himself. >> >>Creeley was a jazz human clarinet. >> >>He knew how to dot the very moment you shared with an expert index finger >>tip. >>And look you in the eye with his one eye. And with you, be here. >> >>---- >> >>R i c h a r d D i l l o n > From clitophon at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 13:51:58 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Creeley In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050403175158.15050.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> hearing some of the scuttlebutt on the other line makes me thankful that I'm not at all involved in literary politics. Can you tell Alison Croggan to stop posting up her dirty laundry and embarrassing, juvenile rants? Most people feel flattered when they're complimented, sent gifts, PN --- Anny Ballardini wrote: > I also think that James Finnegan is hiding some > marvelous talents, cheers to > Dillon who got it straight. > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the > soul, not to gather > admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 5:45 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Creeley > > > > At 12:00 PM -0400 4/3/05, > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > >>Richard, at last, I concur with what you've said > wholeheartedly. > >>Finnegan > > > > > > Finnegan is the greatest poet on earth. > Sagacious. His rapier wit is > > matched by an unerring way with every verse form > sung by all of his > > predecessors who, I just have to observe, seem to > have existed only to > > prepare the way for his manifestation in > literature. Kind. Invisible. > > Immortal. Borgesian. Shakespearean. Divine! > > > > > >>Creeley had the most singular talent a poet can > have: he had this > >>knack for getting people to listen to him as he > reflected in public. > >>As we listened, our language was honed. Certain > words of his became > >>our own: "Apropos," for instance, but this wasn't > the only one. > >>Another one was, "Wow." > >> > >>More than any of the poets who were our teachers, > it was Creeley who > >>taught by example what we Americans term: "Kool." > >> > >>"Still waters run deep," was a cliche he knew > applied to himself. > >> > >>Creeley was a jazz human clarinet. > >> > >>He knew how to dot the very moment you shared with > an expert index finger > >>tip. > >>And look you in the eye with his one eye. And > with you, be here. > >> > >>---- > >> > >>R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 3 15:58:24 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:58:24 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Mystery of Chopin Message-ID: <002201c53887$7e968020$35a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Not a mail on poetry, but on the distress of a genius, maybe. Just watched _The Mystery of Chopin_ The Strange Case of Delphina Potocka_ by Tony Palmer. "Sounds existed before words, the word is just a modification of a sound. Words create language but sounds create music and the art of manipulating sound is music. Our deepest thoughts are always expressed not in words but in music." Rudolf Steiner would have loved it, I think. And also Arturo Onofri, who cherished his ideas. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 3 17:46:16 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:46:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Robert Creeley (1926-2005) Message-ID: After Lorca for M. Marti The church is a business, and the rich are the business men. When they pull on the bells, the poor come piling in and when a poor man dies, he has a wooden cross and they rush through the ceremony. But when a rich man dies, they drag out the Sacrament and a golden Cross, and go doucement, doucement to the cemetery. And the poor love it and think it's crazy. --Robert Creeley Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1828 bytes Desc: not available URL: From debra at debradicembre.com Sun Apr 3 18:33:33 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:33:33 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Mystery of Chopin References: <002201c53887$7e968020$35a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <002301c5389d$2cfdd220$0301010a@galaxy> Lovely Anny...thankyou. Who actually said this? Was it Tony Palmer? Debra Dicembre ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 5:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Mystery of Chopin Not a mail on poetry, but on the distress of a genius, maybe. Just watched _The Mystery of Chopin_ The Strange Case of Delphina Potocka_ by Tony Palmer. "Sounds existed before words, the word is just a modification of a sound. Words create language but sounds create music and the art of manipulating sound is music. Our deepest thoughts are always expressed not in words but in music." Rudolf Steiner would have loved it, I think. And also Arturo Onofri, who cherished his ideas. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Apr 4 01:10:34 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:10:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504040448.j344mg28372386@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Gabe---Okay, if you want to pursue this, we could do that---or maybe even backchannel. Chris I think a more honest response to yr questions right now wd be for me to go back and reread _For Love_. That may take me a few days. At 01:10 PM 4/2/2005, Chris Stroffolino wrote: <> No, I don't, and my last post I think addresses this (and I know you didn't see that before you sent this). I don't know that that's what poems do -- but there is something about the way poetry is coveted in our culture, especially by other poets, that can invite this. I'm not "worried" about it or anything. <> Okay I am beginning to feel the heat now, Chris. I don't think there is anything instructive in my first book. The poems ithere are made of insult, invective, scatology, belittling myself etc, and sometimes desire -- such that I wd hope no one wd turn toward my poems with some need to be instructed about how to live -- I don't think that's the function of a book like my first book. But I never wrote a book called _For Love_ either. I think a more honest response to yr questions right now wd be for me to go back and reread _For Love_. That may take me a few days. Thnx for yr questions -- they're good ones and I'm sorry if i didn't do justice to them, for you -- or anyone. I suspect my reading of his work is merely falling into a caricature of him that I've crafted in my own mind while safely away from his books: It occurs to me I could just as easily read "Ballad of teh Despairing Husband" in light of its purposefully belabored meter as a comment on exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about here. Thanks for the exchange, Chris, which with you is always instructive. g _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 4 01:45:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:45:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Mystery of Chopin References: <002201c53887$7e968020$35a93852@yourpk9x5fuc06> <002301c5389d$2cfdd220$0301010a@galaxy> Message-ID: <004e01c538d9$8d33ad40$a3ad3452@yourpk9x5fuc06> Chopin before dying to Delphina at the end of the movie. If you like Chopin, this is a good movie, with an excellent pianist: Valentina Igoshina. Anny From: Debra Dicembre Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:33 AM Lovely Anny...thankyou. Who actually said this? Was it Tony Palmer? Debra Dicembre ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 5:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Mystery of Chopin Not a mail on poetry, but on the distress of a genius, maybe. Just watched _The Mystery of Chopin_ The Strange Case of Delphina Potocka_ by Tony Palmer. "Sounds existed before words, the word is just a modification of a sound. Words create language but sounds create music and the art of manipulating sound is music. Our deepest thoughts are always expressed not in words but in music." Rudolf Steiner would have loved it, I think. And also Arturo Onofri, who cherished his ideas. Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Mon Apr 4 10:10:26 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: <1f9.6ccbc9b.2f7f46ba@aol.com> References: <1f9.6ccbc9b.2f7f46ba@aol.com> Message-ID: Now that might be a long conversation... On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > I noted he had at least 3 wives...it seems as though > the great love poets can't make it stick. > Finnegan > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Mon Apr 4 10:13:15 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Could it be that they are writing about romantic love? Not the kind of burnished - in the crucible kind of love that results from getting the crap beaten out of you by daily life... forgive me - it's been a long week On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > > > or that not being able to making it stick is > > perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... > > > > > > Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote > an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even > tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce > so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) > right? > Finnegan > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Mon Apr 4 10:13:56 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: let's not go there... On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 MillB at aol.com wrote: > I always wondered the same about priests. How can they counsel about love > and marriage, having children and couple-issues when they, themselves, know > none of such things. > > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 4 12:48:13 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:48:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <1c1.2593fa1f.2f82c9cd@aol.com> In a message dated 4/4/2005 10:13:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes: Could it be that they are writing about romantic love? Not the kind of burnished - in the crucible kind of love that results from getting the crap beaten out of you by daily life... Kerry, I've already backed away from my little jab at the 'great love poets'...it was less than fair and not something easy to generalize about. But as Gabe suggested, notions of 'romantic love' may be part of the problem when it comes to their actual relationships. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 4 13:52:00 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:52:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NPM marches on through day 4: D. Nurkse Message-ID: Today's poem is by D. Nurkse, from his new collection, BURNT ISLAND, followed by commentary from the poet. *************************************** Origins of Desire After Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan 1. Anima This is the groundwork: Autopoesis, constant creation of the self from sunlight. But gender varies like the breeze and sex like tides. Thousands of quasi-sexual fathers might fuse and form our body, just visible on a net-veined leaf. We might cannibalize each other and the indigestible rind become the partner. Or we might trade genes for male and female like beads or playing cards. But we are each built of water locked in a membrane. The same comet-tail sperm in starfish, ginkgo, and human. 2 Red Giants Hydrogen caught fire in the forge of the nebulae and fused to carbon? our element, pliant, ready to combine with any foreign body: magnesium, calcium, contaminants released in the great explosion that lit the sky like a match before there was a mind to understand the advantages of annihilation. 3 Archaen Microbes When the dust clouds rolled back from the earth we died of radiance? the sun burnt holes in the inmost braid of DNA. Light-nourished, light poisoned, we migrated into rock or traded little damaged pieces of self between each other, enshrining separation inside us, creating the blueprint for an absolute stranger. 4 The Unlit Room The mind is a story that found a way to tell itself?but who is the confidant, who the eavesdropper, who gropes for a switch along this invisible wall? In our narrow bed we hear the catch of the other's breath, faint Muzak, an ice machine, a late goose honking toward the idea of south. Between five and six we whisper our presentiment? great herds going blind in Patagonia, a moth species extinguished at every breath. We exaggerate a little. Those extra zeroes hold our reprieve. Perhaps it is too late and we can still make love and catnap toward dawn. But even if we close our eyes we are still married. *************************************** >From BURNT ISLAND by D. Nurkse. ? 2005 by D. Nurkse. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ********************************************** Commentary: Bludgeoned by fundamentalism and consumerism?twin narcissisms?I hungered for material that opened on a wider horizon. I found help in scientific books like Lyn Margulis and Karlene V. Schwartz? Five Kingdoms: The Phyla of Life on Earth, in which all mammals put together take up about one page out of four hundred. As a calmative for America?s binary sexual panic, there seem to be millions of kinds of "natural" sex in that strange force field, our deepest self and our exact opposite, which we call nature. Some of this material found its way into BURNT ISLAND: Three Suites, in which "burnt island" might refer to New York City in the first section, a small wild island in the second, and the earth under global warming at the end. In "Origins of Desire" a couple revisits their sexual lineage, from the formation of carbon in the galaxies to the first stirrings of DNA. The poem was inspired by sources such as The Origins of Sex: Three Billion Years of Genetic Recombination by Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, The Periodic Kingdom by P.W. Atkins, and Consciousness Explained by Daniel C. Dennett. A scientist would wince at my use of this material, though. To me, it?s another mythic language, a way to explore my own ignorance. ?D. Nurkse ************************************************** Related links: About BURNT ISLAND: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEe0DXKYc0Wa0dym0Ee About D. Nurkse: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEe0DXKYc0Wa0dyn0Ef Discuss "Origins of Desire" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEe0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Eg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thom424 at aol.com Mon Apr 4 15:26:55 2005 From: thom424 at aol.com (thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:26:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 2005 Pulitzer Prize Winner Named Message-ID: <8C7076365B1CE10-F3C-1764@mblk-d44.sysops.aol.com> Ted Kooser has won the 2005 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry for his collection DELIGHTS AND SHADOWS. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lesrho at fullnet.net Mon Apr 4 15:34:37 2005 From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:34:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 7 References: <200504041600.j34G040s018191@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004d01c5394f$5dffec20$4f06e2d8@retiredud69srz> Priests I have known throughout my 45 years of marriage and Catholicism have told me that celibacy can be a very beautiful thing. It's more than just avoiding sex; it's the total giving up of one's sexuality as a form of fasting. We don't have to be a pilot to know the joy of flying. We don't have to be the boatbuilder to enjoy sailing. We don't have to be an engineer to really appreciate the total appreciation of an invention of something that never existed before and as such has unique properties that will benefit all of mankind. The priests I have asked asked the question as to how can they know.............??. without ever having experienced marital love will say that there is no greater sacrificial love than that shared with their creator and that they do receive adequate training in the seminary to be able to answer these questions. Les Easley ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:00 AM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 7 > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The Mystery of Chopin (Anny Ballardini) > 2. Re: Creeley (Kerry O'Keefe) > 3. Re: Creeley (Kerry O'Keefe) > 4. Re: Creeley (Kerry O'Keefe) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:45:46 +0200 > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Mystery of Chopin > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <004e01c538d9$8d33ad40$a3ad3452 at yourpk9x5fuc06> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Chopin before dying to Delphina at the end of the movie. If you like Chopin, this is a good movie, with an excellent pianist: Valentina Igoshina. > > Anny > > > From: Debra Dicembre > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:33 AM > > > Lovely Anny...thankyou. > Who actually said this? > Was it Tony Palmer? > > Debra Dicembre > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: New Poetry > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 5:58 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Mystery of Chopin > > > Not a mail on poetry, but on the distress of a genius, maybe. Just watched _The Mystery of Chopin_ The Strange Case of Delphina Potocka_ by Tony Palmer. > > "Sounds existed before words, the word is just a modification of a sound. Words create language but sounds create music and the art of manipulating sound is music. Our deepest thoughts are always expressed not in words but in music." > > Rudolf Steiner would have loved it, I think. And also Arturo Onofri, who cherished his ideas. > > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050404/9613715c/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:10:26 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Now that might be a long conversation... > > On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > > I noted he had at least 3 wives...it seems as though > > the great love poets can't make it stick. > > Finnegan > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:13:15 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Could it be that they are writing about romantic love? Not the kind of > burnished - in the crucible kind of love that results from getting the > crap beaten out of you by daily life... > > forgive me - it's been a long week > > On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/1/2005 8:07:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > or that not being able to making it stick is > > > perhaps what draws them to become great love poets.... > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps, but why is it that those poets who seem to devote > > an inordinate amount of their poetic production to 'love", even > > tho several times divorced (or estranged), seem to produce > > so many poems 'instructive' about 'love'. As if they got 'it' (love) > > right? > > Finnegan > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:13:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Kerry O'Keefe" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > let's not go there... > > On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 MillB at aol.com wrote: > > > I always wondered the same about priests. How can they counsel about love > > and marriage, having children and couple-issues when they, themselves, know > > none of such things. > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 7 > ***************************************** > From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 4 17:05:56 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:05:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 2005 Pulitzer Prize Winner Named Message-ID: <42.66815121.2f830634@aol.com> In a message dated 4/4/2005 3:27:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, thom424 at aol.com writes: Ted Kooser has won the 2005 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry for his collection DELIGHTS AND SHADOWS. thom tammaro moorhead, mn This is an interesting turn of events. Two years ago Kooser was probably not on many top 10 or 25 or even 100 most notable poets lists. Even among poets he wasn't talked about that much, that I can recall. I knew of him primarily because he was an insurance underwriter (my field) and because David Clewell, a poet I knew in St. Louis, suggested the book _Sure Signs_ to me. Gioia wrote about Kooser, and I suspected Gioia's interest came about because of the businessperson-poet connection they shared. So in about a year's time, he gets tapped for the Poet Laureate position and now gets a Pulitzer. The guy's on a roll. Let's go to Vegas, Ted. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 4 17:29:17 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:29:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 2005 Pulitzer Prize Winner Named Message-ID: <6b.427cfffd.2f830bad@aol.com> Published Monday April 4, 2005 Nebraskan wins Pulitzer for poetry --- LINCOLN - National poet laureate Ted Kooser has won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry for "Delights and Shadows." Ted Kooser The first poet laureate from Nebraska, Kooser, 65, is a native of Ames, Iowa. Kooser said the Pulitzer Prize is something every poet dreams of. "It's astounding," Kooser said. "There are so many excellent poets in this country and so many wonderful books coming out all the time, and to be selected for this is just marvelous." A poet since age 18, Kooser graduated from Iowa State University in 1962 and earned his master's degree in English from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln in 1968. "It never even occurred to me that I might be poet laureate, but there was always the chance that maybe if I really worked really hard, I might win a Pulitzer or something," he said. "One thing it means is that I'm going to have to be extremely careful about what poems I send to magazines, because everybody's going to want to publish them and they may not be all that good." He is former vice president of Lincoln Benefit Life, an insurance company, and lives on an acreage near the village of Garland. "Delights & Shadows" is Kooser's 10th collection of poetry. Kooser wins $10,000 for a distinguished volume of original verse by an American author. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 4 17:36:23 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:36:23 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nero & thereabouts Message-ID: <000d01c5395e$5974c0e0$7aa93452@yourpk9x5fuc06> . Open windows for this new spring. The poets come here to live when they retire. There are special treatments for their bleeding skin. They say. I don't believe it. But here I am, since the last rage explosion that destroyed the world. That is when we were sorted out. I was already over 80. What do I miss here. Practically nothing which means everything. But the strength of nature in its powerful tearing apart breaking through forcing the repetition of the old right when perceived as new - automatically creates again that perplexed wonder that I am carried away by life. At the ancient amphitheater they invited Orpheus and the Menades, almost as old as the oral globe, but we enjoy both choreography and setting, the blossoming of forsythias, peach and apricot trees. There you have to go to see them. And there I'll be tonight. Nero was banned from it since when he burnt down Rome. On its ruins some new bushes, the screams were still so sharp that the actors last year had to yell to be heard. But hopefully it will be better now, already 365 days have gone by and they sort of muffled down the waves with a complicated system of detecting spies, they practically killed twice the same victims. Witness of the fact is everywhere, and although I opposed it all, since the start to the end, nothing will escape from eternal justice. . Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers. Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra at debradicembre.com Mon Apr 4 19:59:50 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:59:50 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] NPM marches on through day 4: D. Nurkse References: Message-ID: <007001c53972$65958580$0301010a@galaxy> Thankyou for this post. Love it! Debra Dicembre. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:52 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] NPM marches on through day 4: D. Nurkse Today's poem is by D. Nurkse, from his new collection, BURNT ISLAND, followed by commentary from the poet. *************************************** Origins of Desire After Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan 1. Anima This is the groundwork: Autopoesis, constant creation of the self from sunlight. But gender varies like the breeze and sex like tides. Thousands of quasi-sexual fathers might fuse and form our body, just visible on a net-veined leaf. We might cannibalize each other and the indigestible rind become the partner. Or we might trade genes for male and female like beads or playing cards. But we are each built of water locked in a membrane. The same comet-tail sperm in starfish, ginkgo, and human. 2 Red Giants Hydrogen caught fire in the forge of the nebulae and fused to carbon? our element, pliant, ready to combine with any foreign body: magnesium, calcium, contaminants released in the great explosion that lit the sky like a match before there was a mind to understand the advantages of annihilation. 3 Archaen Microbes When the dust clouds rolled back from the earth we died of radiance? the sun burnt holes in the inmost braid of DNA. Light-nourished, light poisoned, we migrated into rock or traded little damaged pieces of self between each other, enshrining separation inside us, creating the blueprint for an absolute stranger. 4 The Unlit Room The mind is a story that found a way to tell itself?but who is the confidant, who the eavesdropper, who gropes for a switch along this invisible wall? In our narrow bed we hear the catch of the other's breath, faint Muzak, an ice machine, a late goose honking toward the idea of south. Between five and six we whisper our presentiment? great herds going blind in Patagonia, a moth species extinguished at every breath. We exaggerate a little. Those extra zeroes hold our reprieve. Perhaps it is too late and we can still make love and catnap toward dawn. But even if we close our eyes we are still married. *************************************** From BURNT ISLAND by D. Nurkse. ? 2005 by D. Nurkse. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ********************************************** Commentary: Bludgeoned by fundamentalism and consumerism?twin narcissisms?I hungered for material that opened on a wider horizon. I found help in scientific books like Lyn Margulis and Karlene V. Schwartz? Five Kingdoms: The Phyla of Life on Earth, in which all mammals put together take up about one page out of four hundred. As a calmative for America?s binary sexual panic, there seem to be millions of kinds of "natural" sex in that strange force field, our deepest self and our exact opposite, which we call nature. Some of this material found its way into BURNT ISLAND: Three Suites, in which "burnt island" might refer to New York City in the first section, a small wild island in the second, and the earth under global warming at the end. In "Origins of Desire" a couple revisits their sexual lineage, from the formation of carbon in the galaxies to the first stirrings of DNA. The poem was inspired by sources such as The Origins of Sex: Three Billion Years of Genetic Recombination by Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, The Periodic Kingdom by P.W. Atkins, and Consciousness Explained by Daniel C. Dennett. A scientist would wince at my use of this material, though. To me, it?s another mythic language, a way to explore my own ignorance. ?D. Nurkse ************************************************** Related links: About BURNT ISLAND: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEe0DXKYc0Wa0dym0Ee About D. Nurkse: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEe0DXKYc0Wa0dyn0Ef Discuss "Origins of Desire" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEe0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Eg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r_loden at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 4 20:36:39 2005 From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:36:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Message-ID: <000d01c53977$8873f780$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE> >From the Hindustan Times: Poetry, not prose, better for brain Indo-Asian News Service London, April 4, 2005|18:41 IST If literature is food for the mind, then a poem is a banquet, scientists say. According to psychologists at Scotland's Dundee and St. Andrews universities, poetry exercises the mind more than a novel since the former guaranteed far more eye movement associated with deeper thought, reported the daily Scotsman. People were found to read poems slower, concentrating and re-reading individual lines more than they did with prose. Preliminary studies using brain-imaging technology also showed greater levels of cerebral activity when people listened to poems being read aloud. Jane Stabler, a literature expert at St Andrews University and a member of the research group, believes poetry may stir latent preferences in the brain for rhythm and rhymes that develop during childhood. She claims the intense imagery woven through poems, and techniques used by poets to unsettle their readers, force them to think more carefully about each line. "There seems to be an almost immediate recognition that this is a different sort of language that needs to be approached in a way that will be more attentive to the density of words in poetry," she said. "It may be because readers are trying to hear the words or recreate the imaginary event the poet has provided a script for. "Also, children seem to be born with a love of rhyme and rhythm. Then something happens and by the time we see them in the first year at university many of them are almost frightened of poetry and clamouring to study the contemporary novel." To study readers' reactions, the research group focused an infrared beam on the pupils of their eyes to detect minute movements as they read. They found poetry produced all the standard psychological indications associated with intellectual difficulty, such as slow deliberate movement, re-reading sections and long pauses. Even when they used identical content but displayed it in both a poem format and a prose format, they discovered readers found the poem form the more difficult to understand. Stabler said: "When readers decide that something is a poem, they read in a different way." http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1305854,00110004.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 4 21:47:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:47:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain References: <000d01c53977$8873f780$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE> Message-ID: <005101c53981$781da3e0$7b6efea9@j1c1k6> > People were found to read poems slower, concentrating and re-reading > individual lines more than they did with prose. What did they consider poetry to be? Did they use, gasp, free verse? Did they compare free verse to formal verse? Longfellow to Finnegans Wake? --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 4 23:57:07 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:57:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 2005 Pulitzer Prize Winner Named Message-ID: <1c7.25d0cbac.2f836693@cs.com> I'm very pleased to hear this, especially since I reviewed the book that won. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From r_loden at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 5 06:19:34 2005 From: r_loden at sbcglobal.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 03:19:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain In-Reply-To: <005101c53981$781da3e0$7b6efea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <000001c539c8$f74edbb0$220110ac@GLASSCASTLE> Hi Bob. Those are good questions. I immediately regretted sending the article because it is so vague. And probably wrongheaded as well. What about Kafka or Proust? Were they comparing "poetry" to Judith Krantz? Rachel > > People were found to read poems slower, concentrating and re-reading > > individual lines more than they did with prose. > > What did they consider poetry to be? Did they use, gasp, > free verse? Did > they compare free verse to formal verse? Longfellow to > Finnegans Wake? > > --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 5 09:11:42 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:11:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Message-ID: <1a3.30f5cae3.2f83e88e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/4/2005 8:37:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r_loden at sbcglobal.net writes: Even when they used identical content but displayed it in both a poem format and a prose format, they discovered readers found the poem form the more difficult to understand. The triumph of "chopped prose." What do you imagine the implications of this are?: Do linebreaks create that much disruption in flow and sense? Is it just the appearance (& fear) of broken lines (O my god, it's a poem!) that slows readers down? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Apr 5 15:19:59 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:19:59 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Message-ID: <200504051758.j35HwPOA256214@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> I've done similar experiments with students back in the days-- I think it's because when reading prose, people feel like they don't have to pay attention to every word as long as they get the gist, so it isn't necessarily that the "chopped prose" is more difficult to understand but that it compels people to look at each word more than does the way many people tend to read prose Chris ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2005, 5:11 AM In a message dated 4/4/2005 8:37:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r_loden at sbcglobal.net writes: Even when they used identical content but displayed it in both a poem format and a prose format, they discovered readers found the poem form the more difficult to understand. The triumph of "chopped prose." What do you imagine the implications of this are?: Do linebreaks create that much disruption in flow and sense? Is it just the appearance (& fear) of broken lines (O my god, it's a poem!) that slows readers down? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Garrbearr at aol.com Tue Apr 5 14:14:45 2005 From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:14:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Message-ID: <198.3c36480e.2f842f95@aol.com> I agree with you Chris about the not paying as much attention to prose, but I think those who want to write poetry become more sensitive to the lyricism of prose in even the act of writing poetry. I believe there is a Camelotian fog enveloping both for the brave hearted and the adventurous. An adventure one's eyes wants to see through the mist of. :) gary allen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Apr 5 14:54:16 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:54:16 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ant" and "Story Message-ID: <009f01c53a10$ddfc62c0$16d73152@yourpk9x5fuc06> ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Pollack Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 8:03 PM Subject: "Ant" and "Story Discarded versions of these about three years ago but kept the drafts; browsing slush file I found, cut, and reworked them. Ant No food this way, only some wood and frayed empty cobwebs. File your reports until empty of acid, no one will follow. Story Two years in a cult leave him tentative. People say he should be proud: he got out. He isn?t. Only a little slow to fun or anger, his main concern whether his boss is ?impinging.? Married, divorced. A daughter marries a cult of one. Eventually he stops phoning; wonders, genes? Searches his old textbooks. In What Is Literature? Sartre states that the usual opening of a story ends it: it says a story is about to happen. Frederck Pollack -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 5 15:20:40 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:20:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] On the 5th Day of NPM: Marge Piercy Message-ID: <1ec.387445d1.2f843f08@aol.com> Today's poem is by Marge Piercy from her collection COLORS PASSING THROUGH US. ************************************** One reason I like opera In movies, you can tell the heroine because she is blonder and thinner than her sidekick. The villainess is darkest. If a woman is fat, she is a joke and will probably die. In movies, the blondest are the best and in bleaching lies not only purity but victory. If two people are both extra pretty, they will end up in the final clinch. Only the flawless in face and body win. That is why I treat movies as less interesting than comic books. The camera is stupid. It sucks surfaces. Let's go to the opera instead. The heroine is fifty and weighs as much as a '65 Chevy with fins. She could crack your jaw in her fist. She can hit high C lying down. The tenor the women scream for wolfs down an eight course meal daily. He resembles a bull on hind legs. His thighs are the size of beer kegs. His chest is a redwood with hair. Their voices twine, golden serpents. Their voices rise like the best fireworks and hang and hang then drift slowly down descending in brilliant and still fiery sparks. The hippopotamus baritone (the villain) has a voice that could give you an orgasm right in your seat. His voice smokes with passion. He is hot as lava. He erupts nightly. The contralto is, however, svelte. She is supposed to be the soprano's mother, but is ten years younger, beautiful and Black. Nobody cares. She sings you into her womb where you rock. What you see is work like digging a ditch, hard physical labor. What you hear is magic as tricky as knife throwing. What you see is strength like any great athlete's. What you hear is still rendered precisely as the best Swiss watchmaker. The body is resonance. The body is the cello case. The body just is. The voice loud as hunger remagnetizes your bones. *************************************** >From COLORS PASSING THROUGH US by Marge Piercy. ? 2003 by Middlemarsh, Inc.. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ********************************************** Related links: About COLORS PASSING THROUGH US: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEf0DXKYc0Wa0dzz0Et About Marge Piercy: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEf0DXKYc0Wa0dz10Eg Discuss "One reason I like opera" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEf0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Eh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 16:26:23 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:26:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? Message-ID: <731bb17a05040513263ea704fc@mail.gmail.com> "As art forms develop, they establish conventions that guide creation, performance, instruction, even analysis. But eventually these conventions grow stale. They begin to stand between the art and its audience. Although much wonderful poetry is being written, the poetry establishment is locked into a series of exhausted conventions--outmoded ways of presenting, discussing, editing, and teaching poetry. Educational institutions have codified them into a stifling bureaucratic etiquette that enervates the art. These conventions may once have made sense, but today they imprison poetry in an intellectual ghetto." No hints! It's actually TOO easy. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Apr 5 17:49:30 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:49:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Message-ID: <200504052027.j35KRv28094478@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> exactly---(and even in the act of *reading* poetry).... Chris ---------- From: Garrbearr at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Date: Tue, Apr 5, 2005, 10:14 AM I agree with you Chris about the not paying as much attention to prose, but I think those who want to write poetry become more sensitive to the lyricism of prose in even the act of writing poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Tue Apr 5 16:34:48 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:34:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05040513263ea704fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <082901c53a1e$f11d8240$22321c40@Emily> Bob Grumman? TR "As art forms develop, they establish conventions that guide creation, performance, instruction, even analysis. But eventually these conventions grow stale. They begin to stand between the art and its audience. Although much wonderful poetry is being written, the poetry establishment is locked into a series of exhausted conventions--outmoded ways of presenting, discussing, editing, and teaching poetry. Educational institutions have codified them into a stifling bureaucratic etiquette that enervates the art. These conventions may once have made sense, but today they imprison poetry in an intellectual ghetto." No hints! It's actually TOO easy. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Tue Apr 5 16:38:03 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hans Asperger In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050405203803.86105.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, can anyone provide me with information about Hans Asperger's stint as a soldier in Croatia, ie what happened there, what action he saw and any significant conclusions that he drew about autism et al through his experiences as a soldier? best wishes, Paul Murphy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates. http://personals.yahoo.com From Garrbearr at aol.com Tue Apr 5 16:58:11 2005 From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:58:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry, not prose, better for brain Message-ID: To me words are like notes on a keyboard you want to play through an open window on a sultry summer night. You want the night to mingle with it and you. That's the dream I believe. Maybe mine aren't all symphonies but I want to believe in the music. thanks for responding :) :) gary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 5 17:58:30 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:58:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] genlte messages Message-ID: http://www.courierpostonline.com/news/living/f040505a.htm Poetry's gentle messages Tuesday, April 5, 2005 JOHN ZIOMEK/Courier-Post Rutgers professor and poet J.T. Barbarese sits near books about the literary form in his office on the university's Camden campus. His latest collection of poems, `The Black Beach,' arrives this week and he will read from the book on Wednesday in Marlton. Audio Listen to poems by poet J.T. Barbarese April celebrates subtle power of literary form By TAMMY PAOLINO Courier-Post Staff What is the role of something as nuanced as poetry in a world that places so much emphasis on loud, fast and super-sized? J.T. Barbarese, a Philadelphia poet whose latest collection of verse, The Black Beach, comes out this week, isn't losing any sleep over the question -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 5 18:00:46 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:00:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? References: <731bb17a05040513263ea704fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011801c53a2a$ec1258f0$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> "As art forms develop, they establish conventions that guide creation, performance, instruction, even analysis. But eventually these conventions grow stale. They begin to stand between the art and its audience. Although much wonderful poetry is being written, the poetry establishment is locked into a series of exhausted conventions--outmoded ways of presenting, discussing, editing, and teaching poetry. Educational institutions have codified them into a stifling bureaucratic etiquette that enervates the art. These conventions may once have made sense, but today they imprison poetry in an intellectual ghetto." No hints! It's actually TOO easy. Jeff Newberry -- David Graham? Actually, my serious guess would be Dana Gioia. Whoever said it is or was a ding-dong. Educational institutions have not "codified (ways of doing poetry) into a stifling bureaucratic etiquette that enervates the art" or a prison, they've made it into a country club for medioctities. Dead conventions can't ennervate or imprison an art, because genuine artists will be immune to them. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 5 18:03:00 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:03:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? References: <082901c53a1e$f11d8240$22321c40@Emily> Message-ID: <012701c53a2b$3bfa95d0$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> MessageBob Grumman? I read and gave my own answer, thinking that there would probably be those so obtuse about my thought and style as to guess me, before reading Tony's guess. "As art forms develop, they establish conventions that guide creation, performance, instruction, even analysis. But eventually these conventions grow stale. They begin to stand between the art and its audience. Although much wonderful poetry is being written, the poetry establishment is locked into a series of exhausted conventions--outmoded ways of presenting, discussing, editing, and teaching poetry. Educational institutions have codified them into a stifling bureaucratic etiquette that enervates the art. These conventions may once have made sense, but today they imprison poetry in an intellectual ghetto." No hints! It's actually TOO easy. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Tue Apr 5 18:17:07 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:17:07 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? In-Reply-To: <012701c53a2b$3bfa95d0$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <087101c53a2d$3aca8f60$22321c40@Emily> Bob, I *am* pretty obtuse. And I care nothing for burstnorm poetry, sadly. Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 5 18:39:59 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:39:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? References: <087101c53a2d$3aca8f60$22321c40@Emily> Message-ID: <017601c53a30$6653b410$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> MessageBob, I *am* pretty obtuse. And I care nothing for burstnorm poetry, sadly. Tony That doesn't bother me, Tony--really (although I suspect there are burstnorm poems you would like if exposed to them--like the one in my blog entry for today, which I quote in full below). I would hope you'd think me less cliched in thought and expression than whoever wrote the passage Jeff quoted, though--at least at the time he wrote it. 5 April 2005: Here's a third poem by Cummings, a near-perfect haiku, except that it's three or four syllables more than seventeen: & sun & sil e nce e very w here noon e is exc ep t on t his b oul der a drea(chipmunk)ming Note that it is a dreaming that is on the boulder, not a chipmunk (except secondarily, if you want to be picky). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Tue Apr 5 19:47:05 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:47:05 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? In-Reply-To: <017601c53a30$6653b410$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <088e01c53a39$cc531130$22321c40@Emily> Well Bob, I've always loved cummings, but really, isn't that pretty old stuff? I mean, it's been done. I thought you were all for the new. eec stopped being new a long time ago. I don't consider him burstnorm, but then I'm not really sure what burstnorm means... Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:40 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? Bob, I *am* pretty obtuse. And I care nothing for burstnorm poetry, sadly. Tony That doesn't bother me, Tony--really (although I suspect there are burstnorm poems you would like if exposed to them--like the one in my blog entry for today, which I quote in full below). I would hope you'd think me less cliched in thought and expression than whoever wrote the passage Jeff quoted, though--at least at the time he wrote it. 5 April 2005: Here's a third poem by Cummings, a near-perfect haiku, except that it's three or four syllables more than seventeen: & sun & sil e nce e very w here noon e is exc ep t on t his b oul der a drea(chipmunk)ming Note that it is a dreaming that is on the boulder, not a chipmunk (except secondarily, if you want to be picky). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 5 19:52:49 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:52:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The American Literature Association References: <087101c53a2d$3aca8f60$22321c40@Emily> <017601c53a30$6653b410$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01af01c53a3a$936c2720$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> MessageI'm pushing Cummings at my blog because I'll be doing a presentation on him at the ALA convention 26-29 May in Boston. Anyone going to be there? Anyone in ALA (the American Literature Association, I think)? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 5 19:53:14 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:53:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? In-Reply-To: <082901c53a1e$f11d8240$22321c40@Emily> References: <082901c53a1e$f11d8240$22321c40@Emily> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2005, at 4:34 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > Bob Grumman? > ? > ? > TR? > ? > ? > ?"As art forms develop, they establish conventions that guide > creation, performance, instruction, even analysis. But eventually > these conventions grow stale. They begin to stand between the art and > its audience. Although much wonderful poetry is being written, the > poetry establishment is locked into a series of exhausted > conventions--outmoded ways of presenting, discussing, editing, and > teaching poetry. Educational institutions have codified them into a > stifling bureaucratic etiquette that enervates the art. These > conventions may once have made sense, but today they imprison poetry > in an intellectual ghetto." > ? > No hints!? It's actually TOO easy. > ? > Jeff Newberry > > -- Gioia? From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 5 20:11:27 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:11:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? References: <088e01c53a39$cc531130$22321c40@Emily> Message-ID: <020301c53a3d$2d9b5da0$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message Well Bob, I've always loved cummings, but really, isn't that pretty old stuff? I mean, it's been done. I thought you were all for the new. eec stopped being new a long time ago. I don't consider him burstnorm, but then I'm not really sure what burstnorm means... I knew that, Tony. It means breaking long-established norms of poetic expression, like keeping all the letters of words together. I'm more for the unexploitedly effective than for the new. I think no mainstream poets are YET doing the things with words that Cummings, as he was known to himself if not to Madison Avenue, did--with the exception of the least-established language poets. (Nor are mainstream anthologists using many of his burstnorm poems in their sections of his work.) As I keep vainly repeating, I'm not FOR the new so much as against the establishment's emnity to it. What I'm for is simple recognition of the full range of poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 5 20:48:07 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:48:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? In-Reply-To: <088e01c53a39$cc531130$22321c40@Emily> References: <017601c53a30$6653b410$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4252F987.19718.C8559@localhost> On 5 Apr 2005 at 16:47, Anthony Robinson wrote: > Well Bob, I've always loved cummings, but really, isn't that pretty > old stuff? I mean, it's been done. I thought you were all for the new. > eec stopped being new a long time ago. I don't consider him burstnorm, > but then I'm not really sure what burstnorm means... Apparently "burstnorm" means "old hat". Had we but known. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 5 21:13:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:13:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? References: <017601c53a30$6653b410$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4252F987.19718.C8559@localhost> Message-ID: <023301c53a45$cddb4160$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Apparently "burstnorm" means "old hat". Had we but known. Anyone who cares to know what it means can find out by going to my website, http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica, and reading the description of my taxonomy--as Marcus, an expert on my worthlessness as a taxonomist, seems never to have done. --Bob G. From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 5 21:27:24 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:27:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050405202240.01b1dd00@mail.ilstu.edu> I?m happy to say that my new chapbook of Illinois landscape poems is now available--just this week--from Pudding House Press. Here are the particulars: Sky With Six Geese by Bill Morgan Columbus, Ohio: Pudding House, 2005 ISBN 1-58998-326-2 The book is 36 pages long, contains 31 poems (free verse, sonnets, couplets, blank verse and prose poems), and is graced with cover art provided by distinguished Bloomington, IL artist, Harold Gregor. If you?re interested in having a copy, you can order it directly from the publisher at http://www.puddinghouse.com/ Once you get to the site, look in the left-hand column, and choose either the third item, ?Publications List? or, about ? of the way down the same column, ?Order Form,? either of which will tell you how to order by post, email, or telephone. The book costs $8.95 plus shipping. tight lines, everybody, Bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 5 23:50:56 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:50:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Game: Who Said That? References: <087101c53a2d$3aca8f60$22321c40@Emily> <017601c53a30$6653b410$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <04f401c53a5b$d6f6ca60$5f169c51@Robin> MessageBof caid: 5 April 2005: Here's a third poem by Cummings, a near-perfect haiku, except that it's three or four syllables more than seventeen: << "god," said Li Po, "did I *really* try to embrace the Moon in the Yellow River last night?" "Nah," said Wagner's Favourite Valkyre, "you were simply and utterly pissed out of your skull." "Oh, right," said Li Po, and carried on trudging down the Yellow Brick Road. That Explains It. Unferth, who despite his high wit was damned. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 6 00:40:30 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:40:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Seriality To Surreality; Paul Kammerer Meets Andre Breton In A Little Cafe At The Back Of Don Rumsfeld's Brain, Or What Was He Thinking? In-Reply-To: <023301c53a45$cddb4160$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <017601c53a30$6653b410$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4252F987.19718.C8559@localhost> <023301c53a45$cddb4160$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4253683E.2010802@ix.netcom.com> http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ * Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble. * */ The Assassinated Press /* Washington Post 'Absolutely Ejaculatory!!! Two Thumbs Up' For American Financed Torture TV In Iraq: U.S. Military, FOX Entertainment And Their Iraqi Proxies Pick Up Innocent, Indigent Civilians, Accuse Them Of Being Terrorists, Beat And Torture Them And Force Televised Confessions From Them And Produce Smash Hit, Smash Mouth Programming In The Process!!!: Cheney, Gonzales And Mueller Strike Deal With FOX To Produce Similar Reality TV Programming Here: FOX Proud To Produce Similar Fare In U.S. With The 13,500 False Arrests Created Each Year By America's Most Wanted: Judge Judy With A Stun Gun; Terror Suspects Grilled, Mocked, Clocked on Hit Iraqi Show By Coolie Muphty and Khowd Sofar Assassinated Press Staff Writers Tuesday, April 5, 2005 BAGHDADA -- They've taken the cruelest and most fetishistic qualities of Abu Graib at its brutal best and combined it with the utter sadism of Guantanamo Bay and arena football, added the production values and the sheer perversity of a FOX reality show and come up with "Agitprop American Style: Terrorism At The Hands Of State Terror." Most of the players are not there by choice having, as in the case of the vast majority of detainees at 'Gitmo,' Afghanistan and Iraq never been charged with a traffic stop much less acts of terrorism. They don't win big bucks, a new spouse or a dream job. No one on the ground in Iraq is that cynical. Instead, all the characters on "American Agitprop: Terrorism At The Hands of State Terror" are actors pretending to be were captured suspected insurgents, or average people, non-actors picked up off the street by the U.S.'s Iraqi secret police, beaten and tortured, and then threatened into confessing that they are insurgents and forced to recite scripts of their crimes written by outsourced FOX TV script writers working for the U.S. military. "The idea is to scare the livin' shit out of the population with just how random and sadistic their new found democracy is. This will act as a deterrent," explained Col. Franklin 'Ass-Jaw' Rupka of Fort Squalor, Kansas. And for more than a month, they have been riveting viewers to their TV sets as they rivet prisoners to iron pylons screaming out confessions to ratings smashing viewership, tales of how they killed, kidnapped, raped or beheaded Iraqis, like U.S. forces do and, like the U.S. all volunteer army, usually for a few hundred dollars per victim. "I was so surprised to see my neighbor, Makmud, bleeding from the eyes confessing to a crime we all saw the Americans commit. Makes you fuckin' think more than twice," said a resident of the poor, sewage strewn section of Baghdad known as Uncle Sam's Gift To The Iraqi People. "Do they have such a program in the U.S.? If they don't they should have," he added. "I will volunteer to help start one." *"Yeah! Here Comes The Boiling Massage Oil!"--Stars And Stripes* Seated before an Iraqi flag, the dejected and cowed prisoners answer questions from an off-camera inquisitor, Bill O'Reilly, who mocks their behavior between Hail Mary's and Our Fathers. Some sport bruised faces and black eyes, crushed cheekbones, lesions, bleeding from the mouth and eyes, vomiting, burns, plucked out eyes, cut off ears, ruptures, eviscerations, wounds from boiling oil, dogs, poisonous snakes and scorpions, teeth marks, stun guns, rifle butts, battery acid, ground glass, contracting leather etc. Far from appearing to be confident heroes battling U.S. occupation, they come across like the average Joe, like the Viet Cong, like French partisans who have fallen into the hands of the Nazis or Americans captured by the Japanese. "Its exhilarating," said the Washington Post that insists that the prisoners wounds are incidental and not the result of torture. "I watch the show every night, and I wait for it patiently, because it is very revealing," said Post reporter Carlyle Murphy gripping a hotel towel around his pecker, a tub of cream cheese, four sticks of clarified butter and a tube of KY jelly on the night stand. "It gives me the hope that we are going to pull this oil grab off in the guise of some democratic bullshit, and that I'll be right and vindicated about all this, at least in my owned tiny mind.. For the first time, we saw those who claim to be the new Iraqi democrats are simple $50 murderers who would do anything for a few bucks American but preferably euro. Its Hussein all over again." "Our religion is too lofty, noble and humane to have such thugs and killers," countered one of Murphy's Iraqi hirelings. I wish al-Zarqawi would hang them now, and in the same place where they did their crimes like the Pentagon and Indianapolis, the American studios/torture chambers. They should never be given any mercy." With one phone call, Murphy got his hireling a guest spot on "American Agitprop" as insurgent number 3. "They oughta let people vote for the one they feel is most guilty then turn him over to the Americans so they can turn their dogs on him. Or maybe the ugliest one. Or the one who would bleed longest. Guilty. Not guilty. Those people are missing the point," said power broker, Iyad Allawi. *Rumsfeld Announces 'American Agitprop' Picked Up For Another Season, Unhappy Reservists Serving Third Tour Learn* Broadcast on American owned and operated al-Iraqiya, the state-run, United States, network set up by the U.S. occupation authority in 2003, "American Agitprop: Terrorism in the Hands of State Terrorism" has become one of most effectively brutal hot terminals in the government's counterinsurgency propaganda battery. "It has shown the Iraqi people the reality of those insurgents, FOX make up artists make them look like criminals, killers, murderers, thieves," Interior Minister Falah Naqib said last week. "But remember Geneva Convention. I said "look like". I never accused anyone," added Naqib, hedging his bets. "The Americans would turn me in in a minute if it meant saving their skins. I must protect myself from hanging. This is a very dangerous game we are playing. Its fortunate that American journalists are so addicted to torture as a kind of pornography. I had heard about how before all the White House press conferences, they watched a TV show where young women exercised in skimpy tights, but I had no idea that in their psyches it was so readily wired to a brutally beaten and bleeding bookseller and father of six." Sabah Kadhim, an Interior Ministry spokesman, added, "The last few weeks have been incredible in terms of tips coming in from the public. Everyone is just turning everyone else in like they used to describe of the old Soviet Union or how they describe all the falsely accused as a result of FOX's "America's Most Wanted." Officials launched the program, Kadhim said, after realizing that Iraqis did not believe that insurgents were being arrested. "Talking to people in the street, they say, 'Is it really true? . . . Why don't you show it?' " he recalled. "The demand for this came from the people. So we started calling the people the insurgents and picking them up. So now they can see that we are picking up the insurgents, or at least, someone we will tell them we thought were the insurgents even though they are totally innocent. We will just say, 'Oh my golly. We didn't know.' Wring our hands and slip them a few bucks. Or simply kill them if that's more expedient." They tell their story to the alternative press--boo-hoo. The Americans have a thousand media whores that spin murder into marigolds. We learned this technique from the Americans. After 9/11 they simply picked up a bunch of people and told the highly educated, yet highly mentally disturbed, American audience that these guys are the 9/11 or Abu Graib insurgents even though it wasn't true. But the lies had a clear narcotic effect on the Americans and even after the truth of the detainees innocence came out, the Americans reacted no differently than if they had been guilty. We are trying to bring this kind of pathological thinking, if you can call it thinking, to the Iraqi people. And so far its working." The bruised faces and the death of at least one prisoner after his appearance on the show have raised questions about the men's treatment on FOX's COPS as well as "American Agitprop: Terrorism In The Hands Of State Terrorism" which strives to mimic American TV. COPS Executive Producer, Dan Mitrione, denied the prisoners were being abused. "There is absolutely no motive for us to torture them other than the 'must see TV' angle," he said. He also defended the laugh track as perfectly appropriate and necessary to cue viewers as how to mimic the warm inner joy an American trained military sociopath experiences when he scatters the face of a stripped and bound human over a 500 square foot concrete bunker. *From Seriality To Surreality; Paul Kammerer Meets Andre Breton In A Little Cafe At The Back Of Don Rumsfeld's Brain, Or What Was He Thinking?* In recent reports, the State Department and Human Rights Watch have applauded the use of torture by American educated Iraqi police. "In light of our recent findings about the prevalence of torture in Iraqi prisons," said Joe Stork, a Washington-based spokesman for Human Rights Watch, "we have serious concerns that these confessions were not also coerced and that the U.S. authorities failed to provide essential due process protections. In other words, business as usual." "Televised confessions are almost always suspect. Look at Nixon and The cloth coat. Clinton's blow job. Bush's bullshit about why were in Iraq," Stork added. "Recent examples in Illinois and Texas clearly involved a high level of coercion and degrading treatment." Such concerns have not dimmed the program's popularity and FOX is sure it will do well in the U.S. "First, and foremost, there is the exploitation of some stranger's pain. Second, it doesn't matter that its all lies as long as the entertainment value is there. And, thirdly, who gives a rat's ass about these guys? Who's going to file a wrongful arrest suit for these sorry fucks," chirped FOX's Mitrione. "We had not planned for the tapes, but suddenly we had what you might call a light bulb go off," said al-Iraqiya's Baghdad station director, Ahmed Yasseri. As a result, he said, "we have overtaken the other stations. Even though they are a pack of lies, these tapes have captured the attention of Iraqis. The Americans had told us of this phenomenon." The program usually opens with a graphic shot of a bloodied victim lying in Ambassador Khalilzad's office with the ambassador still wielding a garrotte or on the street with a smear of human flesh and no shot of the U.S. plane that dropped the bomb because of its altitude, followed by one of two smiling young boys holding a handwritten sign that reads, "No to U.S. Terrorism" just before a U.S. 500 pounder makes the boys into a couple of quarter pounders." As each insurgent is questioned, others sit behind him, hands folded in laps, as if patiently waiting their turns in a butchershop. Sometimes, the head of a cougar or lion -- mascots of counterinsurgency police commandos -- are superimposed on the Iraqi flag in the background. Many of the suspects are former policemen who claim they were coerced by the shows producers into saying they joined the insurgency by threats against their families. Though many claim to have attacked U.S. forces, the interviews do not focus on these attacks because attacking Americans is seen as heroic in the same way Americans saw attacking the British as heroic in the late 18 century. But that was a long time ago and Imperial levels of material consumption have left the American people unable to see the connection in the same way that most cannot no longer see their toes, or dicks. In one recent episode, Ramzi Hashim Obeidi, a portrait painter from Mosul who claimed to be a member of the Islamic radical group Ansar al-Islam, read his purported role in the 2003 car bomb assassination of a senior Shiite Muslim cleric, Ayatollah Mohammed Bakir Hakim, in Najaf. Obeidi said he was told to say he was part of a six-man team that was to "intercept U.S. forces if they came." Others drove the explosives-laden vehicle the approximately 90 miles from Baghdad to the site of the attack. "It was very easy," he said "It was an ambulance." Among the conspirators who planned the operation, Obeidi said, was Iraq's most-wanted Islamic extremist, Abu Musab Zarqawi, a safe name to throw out given the inquisition like nature of the interrogation.. "You did not target just Hakim," the police interrogator shouted at Obeidi. "You killed 110 people, some of them women and children. . . . Do you call this jihad? What kind of jihad is this? To kill police, to behead police?" Obeidi said, "Lighten up, commander, or holding my family at gun point won't be enough for me to make up a confession.. Besides up til now, I don't know what the fuck jihad is. But when I bust out of here, you can be sure, I'll never forget what jihad is. Good work, donkey of America." On another segment, Qahtan Adnan Khalid, a prisoner who said he had been a policeman in the town of Samarra, had two black eyes and appeared to have difficulty breathing, occasionally wincing in pain because American journalists had caved in his chest with their camera so excited by the program were they. Responding to each question with a deferential "Sir," Khalid recounted how he had shot two kidnapped policeman in the head and was paid $200 for each killing, half the going rate the Americans pay. "I advise the young to stay away from these paths. Though they'll pick your ass up anyway, so what the fuck are you supposed to do," he said at one point. A few days after Khalid's appearance, his body was delivered to his father's home in Samarra, his family has said. Human Rights Minister Bakhtyar Amin said his office was investigating the death as a suicide. Because they are only given 2 acting classes using the Stanislawski method, at times, the insurgents parroting packaged answers is so obvious, it is macabrely humorous, and critics of the program say the prisoners' stories written well to conform to the government's portrait of the insurgency: that it is in large part a bunch of greedy criminals run amok, that foreigners play a big role and that funding is coming from neighboring Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer and Columbia Pictures starring an all new 'Wild Bunch.' Less emphasized on the program is that the predominantly Sunni Arab insurgency is also driven by fears of Shiite political domination and resentment of the U.S. occupation. As a result, "Terrorism in the Hands of the State Terrorists" has special meaning to some Sunni Arabs. "What's my first reaction to the American show? Fear," replied Khalad Ali. They'll kill anybody to further secure that oil." "My criticism of the program is that it is sometimes simplistic, repetitive and gives the impression that those [men] are being coached to say what they are saying, so no one in their right minds can believe they have committed these crimes," said Abdul Kareem Janaby, 46, a Trade Ministry employee. "Those persons are nothing but dirty, rotten scum bags that would see the American occupation a more favorable light if they just had girl friends to ball and found the Lord, but now are being used by the Sunnis to be morally consistent," turning to an American Colonel and parroting "paycheck." Kadhim said that the captured insurgents eventually would be brought to trial and that what they said on television would be ignored in court because the program was "not a court of law. Its more binding. Its propaganda designed to control a person's belief system." The prisoners can only hope they get a judge who shares the views of Fuad Awdeh, 27, a Shiite laborer in Baghdad who said he found the program "captivating. The Americans are first rate at lying bullshit. If I was treated to agitprop like this everyday, I'd be one delusional fuck. How do Americans stand it?" "I feel sorry and pity for those guys," he said. "They may have read a false confession for money . . . and probably, being unemployed, were easily drawn into this. But if the Americans need a scapegoat, you know they'll use these guys again." Still, Awdeh said, he finds the program credible "because in one episode someone spoke of committing a crime in the Wahda district, and it happens I knew the victim's family, and, even though it was public knowledge, it was true and only he could have known. I feel dizzy when I think. Ich bin Amerikaner." > From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Apr 6 03:11:32 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:11:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley Message-ID: <200504060549.j365nQeZ022478@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Have you read Creeley's early story (from the 1950s) called "The Lover"? I think it gives a lot of insight into the kind of love Creeley often investigates (in perhaps more reified form?) in his poetry--- and certainly has at least as much to do with the kind of love that results from getting the crap beaten out of you by daily life as it does with "romantic love" C ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Creeley Date: Mon, Apr 4, 2005, 8:48 AM In a message dated 4/4/2005 10:13:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jkok at hfa.umass.edu writes: Could it be that they are writing about romantic love? Not the kind of burnished - in the crucible kind of love that results from getting the crap beaten out of you by daily life... Kerry, I've already backed away from my little jab at the 'great love poets'...it was less than fair and not something easy to generalize about. But as Gabe suggested, notions of 'romantic love' may be part of the problem when it comes to their actual relationships. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 6 08:07:08 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 08:07:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <023301c53a45$cddb4160$53b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <425398AC.19341.2A9936@localhost> On 5 Apr 2005 at 21:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anyone who cares to know what it means can find out by going to my > website, http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica, and reading the > description of my taxonomy--as Marcus, an expert on my worthlessness > as a taxonomist, seems never to have done. Not only have I read it, I've critiqued it at length and in detail in emails back and forth with you in this forum, Bob. You're calling a list of "schools of poetry" relabeled with your neologisms "a taxonomy", which is a misnomer because there is no underlying science, even though you insist on using scientific terminology. Instead of offering a theory to explain class, order, family, genus, species and how they necessarily relate to one another, you simply re- name the schools of poetry you find. But the central problem, Bob, with a "taxonomy of poetry" is that you're claiming scientific authority for your own mere opinion. You're trying to steal the cultural critical authority of science by using scientific terms in an false way. Your neologisms pretend to an authority they cannot have because poetry is a volitional human activity, not a set of necessarily related and non-volitional characteristics. The irony of your position is that you seek in your taxonomy to categorize all possible poetries while vociferously maintaining that the only thing that is really valuable in art is what is "new" -- but of course, if you could be successful in categorizing all possible poetries in a taxonomy then there could be nothing new! And if there were something new then your taxonomy would be a failure! We've been all through this, Bob: you've tried out holding that your taxonomy is really science, and have been shown to be wrong about that. Your taxonomy is at best a sort of metaphor, just a way to try to steal scientific authority for your mere opinions by using scientific terminology in inappropriate ways to bolster your opinion and make it seem more significant than it is. It's a bad job, Bob -- and no number of years spent on it makes it any better, no more than hours spent with mud and water will transform those materials into an edible pie. Your understanding of what science is and what its goals and purposes are have been completely revealed to be wrong only a few days ago. You don't know what you're talking about. You have it almost all wrong. You're using adult words in a childish way, as if knowing the words without really understanding their meanings gives you the authority to speak decisively. The whole notion of using scientific methodology to examine art is specious, Bob, because what science is good at is investigating necessarily related non-volitional characteristics, and you haven't identified a single such thing in the world of poetry -- and you won't, either, because poetry is a volitional human activity that doesn't have necessarily related non- volitional characteristics. You're just playing with words inappropriately, Bob. Marcus From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Apr 6 08:55:12 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:55:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Doty poem Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA5A@URANIUM.ripon.college> At the recent AWP conference, Mark Doty read a poem about being on a plane that nearly crashed. Does anyone know the title? And/or where it may be found? ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 09:25:03 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:25:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer Prize Winners Named Message-ID: <731bb17a050406062556e90cb4@mail.gmail.com> Pulitzer Prizes for Letters, Drama and Music By THE NEW YORK TIMES FICTION: 'Gilead,' by Marilynne Robinson Nearly a quarter of a century passed between Ms. Robinson's first novel, "Housekeeping," published in 1981, and this second book, the elegiac tale of a 76-year-old Congregationalist pastor who, facing imminent death, writes a letter to his 7-year-old son. "Gilead" is set in 1956 in Iowa, a place that Ms. Robinson, 61, knows well as a teacher at the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop. GENERAL NONFICTION: 'Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, From the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001,' by Steve Coll In chronicling how Al Qaeda's brand of Islamic fundamentalism came to thrive in the chaos left by the Soviet pullout from Afghanistan, Mr. Coll, 46, an associate editor and former managing editor at The Washington Post, pieced together the period of ignorance and inaction that led to the worst terrorist attack on American soil. BIOGRAPHY: 'De Kooning: An American Master,' by Mark Stevens and Annalyn Swan Mr. Stevens, 53, is the art critic for New York magazine and a former art critic for The New Republic and Newsweek. He is married to Ms. Swan, 54, who has been a writer at Time and a music critic and senior arts editor at Newsweek. Ten years in the making, this book about de Kooning is widely considered the first major biography of the painter. HISTORY: 'Washington's Crossing,' by David Hackett Fischer Mr. Fischer, 69, is Warren professor of history at Brandeis University. In " Washington's Crossing," he shows how a despairing American army refused to surrender during the darker moments of the Revolution. Reached at his home in Wayland, Mass., Mr. Fischer said he believed that his book presented a complex look at the general. "My Washington was a figure who took me very much by surprise," he said. "What he did was bring together the values of the American Revolution with the conducting of the war." POETRY: 'Delights & Shadows,' by Ted Kooser Mr. Kooser, of Garland, Neb., is the poet laureate of the United States. Like Wallace Stevens, Mr. Kooser, 65, worked in life insurance for much of his career. He was vice president of Lincoln Benefit Life Insurance, where he wrote advertising copy and oversaw legal affairs; he rose daily at 4:30 a.m. to compose poetry, which he asked his secretary and colleagues to critique. He retired in 1998. Clarity is the hallmark of Mr. Kooser's style, with deceptively modest metaphors grounded in the Nebraska landscape. The Bloomsbury Review described his work as "like clean, clear water." DRAMA: 'Doubt,' by John Patrick Shanley At first glance, the genesis of "Doubt" would seem to be obvious: The play tells the story of a strong-minded nun investigating suspicions of pedophilia in a Roman Catholic school, and was produced after real-life sex scandals in the church. But Mr. Shanley, 54, said the play was actually inspired by what he called a visceral reaction to current American political discourse. MUSIC: 'Second Concerto for Orchestra,' by Steven Stucky Mr. Stucky's concerto is a colorfully orchestrated work written for the Los Angeles Philharmonic, which Mr. Stucky has been associated with - first as composer in residence, and now as consulting composer for new music - since 1988. The piece includes allusions to works by Ravel, Stravinsky and Sibelius, composers Mr. Stucky finds particularly influential. But it is also built on motifs that Mr. Stucky based on a code he devised, in which the letters of the alphabet were assigned to musical pitches. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 6 16:52:09 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:52:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's taxonomy References: <425398AC.19341.2A9936@localhost> Message-ID: <00e401c53aea$84653270$3eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> It's possible Marcus honestly thinks he read my taxonomy. Since he's never said anything that relates to it, and has very recently indicated not knowing what my term, "burstnorm poetry," signifies, I assumed he has not. But I suppose it's possible that he's read it without comprehension. --Bob G. From COLODarcy at aol.com Wed Apr 6 20:44:48 2005 From: COLODarcy at aol.com (COLODarcy at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:44:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Doty poem Message-ID: <142.431e290c.2f85dc80@aol.com> He said it's coming out in his upcoming book. That was a great poem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rosesan at auburn.edu Wed Apr 6 21:28:06 2005 From: rosesan at auburn.edu (Sandra Rose) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:28:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Help: un-subscribing/re-subscribing Message-ID: please me know how to do this. i need to put this list serve under an account other than rosesan at auburn.edu. thanks, sandra (rose) southerland From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 6 21:31:01 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:31:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's taxonomy In-Reply-To: <00e401c53aea$84653270$3eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42545515.11919.30A9512@localhost> On 6 Apr 2005 at 16:52, Bob Grumman wrote: > It's possible Marcus honestly thinks he read my taxonomy. Since he's > never said anything that relates to it ...< I've said a lot that relates to it -- I've pointed out that it's nonsense, and why it's nonsense. You simply think that if you use a scientific term you're doing science, and that's wrong. , and has very recently > indicated not knowing what my term, "burstnorm poetry," signifies,...< Buy a sense of humor. Marcus From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 6 21:51:39 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:51:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer Prize Winners Named Message-ID: In a message dated 4/6/2005 9:26:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, jeff.newberry at gmail.com writes: > POETRY: 'Delights &Shadows,' by Ted Kooser > > Mr. Kooser, of Garland, Neb., is the poet laureate of the United States. > Like Wallace Stevens, Mr. Kooser, 65, worked in life insurance for much of his > career. He was vice president of Lincoln Benefit Life Insurance, where he > wrote advertising copy and oversaw legal affairs; he rose daily at 4:30 a.m. to > compose poetry, which he asked his secretary and colleagues to critique. He > retired in 1998. Clarity is the hallmark of Mr. Kooser's style, with > deceptively modest metaphors grounded in the Nebraska landscape. The Bloomsbury > Review described his work as "like clean, clear water." > > > > Do they ever announce the other candidates for the Pulitzer Prize? If you are ever in St. Louis, my old stomping grounds, make a point to see the Pulitzer Foundation Building and the St.Louis Contemporary Art Museum, designed by Tadeo Ando. http://www.pulitzerarts.org/architecture.htm http://architect.architecture.sk/tadao-ando-architect/tadao-ando-architect.php The Contemporary is open most days...the Pulitzer collection next door is open less often. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 6 21:56:17 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:56:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] On the 6th Day (of NPM), God created Yeats Message-ID: <74.51281c97.2f85ed41@aol.com> Today's poem is "Leda and the Swan" by William Butler Yeats, with commentary by Camille Paglia from her new book, BREAK, BLOW, BURN: CAMILLE PAGLIA READS FORTY-THREE OF THE WORLD'S BEST POEMS?just released from Pantheon Books.Throughout BREAK, BLOW, BURN, Paglia does what each of us who reads and works on Knopf Poem-a-Day hopes to do: she renews poetry's vitality and place of centrality in our culture. (The action-packed words of the book's title are from John Donne.) Paglia's discussion of each of the forty-three poems she presents?from the sonnets of Donne to Yeats to a song by Joni Mitchell?is no-nonsense, exuberant, rigorous, and celebratory. Academic jargon is nowhere to be found; Paglia's mission is to make these poems approachable and accessible in their full complexity. BREAK, BLOW, BURN provides intoxicatingly close readings by a fiercely provocative and generous diva. Chapter Twenty-two follows in its entirety, ready for you to chew on and debate. Read on and you will discover Paglia's personal pick for "the greatest poem of the twentieth century." Plus, additional links follow the text, including the official Web site for BREAK, BLOW, BURN, where Paglia proffers additional lists of her cultural favorites, from sculpture to scandal. There you can also find more excepts, Paglia's spring tour schedule, and a chance to WIN a signed first edition of the book. *************************************** Chapter 22 William Butler Yeats Leda and the Swan A sudden blow: the great wings beating still Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill, He holds her helpless breast upon his breast. How can those terrified vague fingers push ? ? ? ? 5 The feathered glory from her loosening thighs? And how can body, laid in that white rush, But feel the strange heart beating where it lies? A shudder in the loins engenders there The broken wall, the burning roof and tower ? ? ? 10 And Agamemnon dead. ?????????????????????????????????????Being so caught up, So mastered by the brute blood of the air, Did she put on his knowledge with his power Before the indifferent beak could let her drop? ? ?15 The theme of "Leda and the Swan," as of "The Second Coming," is the tragedy of history. Once again, a Yeats poem opens with a predatory bird, which now turns its violence against the human. In form, "Leda" is a rhyming sonnet that seems to have been physically traumatized. The first two quatrains float free, while the third section is cleft crosswise, its final segment dangling precariously, like Leda just before the swan drops her."A sudden blow": Zeus, the amorous king of the gods, swoops down in disguise from Olympus to take his pleasure, but the girl he targets experiences his desire as assault and battery. The poem begins with Metaphysical abruptness and rapidly unfolds in the present tense, drawing us into the scene. Like Leda, we are disoriented by a welter of sensory impressions, conveyed by multiplying participles ("beating," "staggering," "caressed," "caught") before we reach the clarifying subject ("He") in the fourth line. The myth of Leda and the swan was a popular romantic theme in Renaissance art (Leonardo and Michelangelo painted it), but the tale was treated as a charming, pastoral idyll and rarely if ever shown from the victim's point of view. In Yeats's version, womanizing is not a titillating sport but a ruthless expression of the will to power. Despite their decorative association with delicacy and grace, swans are fierce and formidable creatures, as Yeats surely observed (he titled a 1919 book of poems The Wild Swans at Coole). The swan overwhelms and immobilizes Leda, "helpless" amid a grotesque profusion of wings and paddled feet (4). The swan seems both spidery ("dark webs") and serpentine, as he twists his long neck around to clamp her nape in his bill and pin their bodies together (3). "How can those terrified vague fingers push / The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?" (5-6). She is weak, confused, and perhaps blinded by a burst of divine light ("glory"). The phrase "loosening thighs" is ambiguous and provocative: have her strained muscles gone slack, or is there awakening complicity on her part? As with the earlier "caressed," a gentle stroking amid the commotion, the reader too is being seduced--toward voyeurism and away from honor and ethical judgment. Nearly everything in the first half of the poem is tactile, including Leda's alarming sensation of the swan's "strange heart beating" next to hers (8). God is an alien beyond human emotions. The "white rush" in which Leda's body is "laid" (nestled in fluffy down as well as sexually conquered) is the bird's first strike as it forces past her feeble resistance, but it also describes Zeus's ecstatic ejaculation (7). While male swans (cobs) do have a small retractable penis, the coitus here seems to be of a god in incomplete metamorphosis: his own penis may remain magically intact. But this is only one episode in an epic saga. Zeus has a purpose, and Leda is his instrument. "A shudder in the loins engenders there / The broken wall, the burning roof and tower / And Agamemnon dead" (9-11). The "shudder in the loins" is his pleasure and her fear. Impregnated, she will give birth to the entire classical era. From Leda's egg will hatch Helen and Clytemnestra, the sister femmes fatales. Faithless Helen will trigger the ten-year Trojan War, inspiring Homer's Iliad and Odyssey. Clytemnestra will slaughter her husband, Agamemnon, commander in chief of the Greek forces, and be murdered in turn by their vengeful son, Orestes. Aeschylus's trilogy about these events, the Oresteia, was the first great work of Western drama. Yeats portrayed Western culture as inseminated with treachery and violence from the start. The rape of Leda begins a chain of disasters that will continue to his own day. "The broken wall, the burning roof and tower" apply to all wars but show ravaged Troy in flames as well as the victorious Greek signal fires leaping from peak to peak to Argos (the first scene in the Oresteia). The burning tower also suggests Zeus's raging phallic aggression, just as the "broken wall" is Leda's violation and defloration. (Though she was already married to a king, Yeats treats Leda as a virginal, undefended maiden.) The poem roots the constructions of civilization in the convulsive "loins," the gut or viscera from which surge driving, irrational ambitions and great achievements. But Yeats shows the latter only in decline and fall: "Agamemnon dead" is an emblem of annihilated male authority and pride. While Troy still burns, we eerily see him, as if by time-lapse photography, already slain on the day of his triumphant homecoming. He lies toppled like Shelley's pharaoh. In the time frame of the sonnet's composition, "Agamemnon dead" also refers to the failure of state and military leadership in World War I, with its strategic blunders and massive waste of life. The age of heroes is over. Because of its vast historical vision and agonizing pantomime of passion and conflict, "Leda and the Swan" can justifiably be considered the greatest poem of the twentieth century. It reflects the disillusionment of European and North American artists and intellectuals with the West, whose buoyant confidence in its own moral superiority and technological progress had been shattered by the Great War, as it was then called. The "sudden blow" that opens the poem reproduces the shock of events, numbing and destabilizing. The poet wonders whether Leda, "being so caught up" in her brief, bruising encounter with God, gained "knowledge" of the meaning of history (12-14). Did her penetration by Zeus's "power" give her mental penetration? Or was she, like us, mired in earthly limitation? She says nothing. Neither Zeus nor Leda is named in the text itself, so that the scene becomes archetypal: the poem records a pivotal moment of contact between humanity and divinity. The exchange is painfully one-sided but revelatory: "mastered by the brute blood of the air," Leda sees God for what he is?a sadistic marauder, as tarnished as a fallen angel (13). Sated, the swan lets her "drop" from his "indifferent beak," a curt phrase that accentuates her cumbersome materiality, her reduction to a thing and a trophy, as well as his cavalier disrespect for his own creation (15). Losing interest, God callously discards his toys. By implication, the poem refers to another commandeering of a virgin by a bird-god?the impregnation of a startled Mary by the Holy Spirit, depicted as a beam of light or white dove. (Yeats makes the Mary parallel explicit in "Two Songs from a Play.") God plays a game of hit-and-run?infusing each declining age with ferocious new energy, then disappearing again for two thousand years. A fellow Irish writer, Samuel Beckett, borrowed Yeats's theme of a capriciously self-withholding God for Waiting for Godot, where vagabonds scrabble beneath the blank sky. The last section of "Leda and the Swan" has a split-level structure, mirroring its content. The irregular gash produced by a broken line mimics the modern breakdown in religious and cultural traditions?the mournful subject of T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land (1922), with its fallen idols and disconnected allusions. From this point of view, "Agamemnon dead" would be the failure even to recognize the name "Agamemnon": classical culture has receded and no longer feeds and informs the present. Visually, the last stanza's jagged pattern resembles a thunderbolt, Zeus's emblem. Yeats has projected himself into Leda's story: he wrote elsewhere, "We who are poets and artists...live but for the moment when vision comes to our weariness like terrible lightning, in the humility of the brutes" (Per Amica Silentia Lunae). Illumination is sporadic, partial, and costly. Knowledge is not cumulative but subject to periodic destruction and loss, necessitating recovery and revival. Like "The Second Coming," "Leda and the Swan" ends with a question. There is no resolution. All human beings, like Leda, are caught up moment by moment in the "white rush" of experience. For Yeats, the only salvation is the shapeliness and stillness of art. ?? ? ? ? ? ? ***************************************From BREAK, BLOW, BURN by Camille Paglia. ? 2005 by Camille Paglia. Excerpted by permission of Pantheon Books, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** Related links: Visit the official website for BREAK, BLOW, BURN: breakblowburn.com More about Camille Paglia and her picks for the best in culture: breakblowburn.com Camille Paglia will be discussing poetry across the country throughout April. Find the Paglia event closest to you at: randomhouse.com/pantheon/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=23065&view=event Read the rave New York Times review of BREAK BLOW BURN: nytimes.com/2005/03/27/books/review/027JAMESL.html?ei=5090& en=92c2bb045ddb8c0d&ex=1269666000&partner=rssuserland&pagewanted=print&position= Vanity Fair Columnist James Wolcott chooses BREAK BLOW BURN as his "Hot Pick" for the week of 3/13/05 on Topic A With Tina Brown: topicawithtinabrown.com/hotpicks.html Discuss Camille Paglia in the Knopf Poets Forum: aaknopf.com/poetry/forum/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 6 22:03:48 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:03:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer Prize Winners Named In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/6/05 8:51 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: Do they ever announce the other candidates for the Pulitzer Prize? --------------------------------------- Yes. From the Pulitzer website: Also nominated as finalists in this category were: ?The Orchard? by Brigit Pegeen Kelly (BOA Editions, Ltd.), and ?Search Party: Collected Poems? by the late William Matthews (Houghton Mifflin). http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2005/poetry/ I think Kooser's a fine poet, but not giving the prize to Matthews's life work is a crying shame. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 6 22:05:41 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:05:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer jurors Message-ID: And the jurors this year were: Linda Gregerson, Frederick G.L. Huetwell Professor of English, University of Michigan (Chair) James Baker Hall, professor of English emeritus, University of Kentucky, and poet laureate of Kentucky, 2001-02 Wesley McNair, poet, Norridgewock, Maine ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 22:08:30 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:08:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer Prize Winners Named In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <731bb17a050406190898c7d2a@mail.gmail.com> David, Can you post a couple of good Matthews poems if you have access? I suppose I could Google him, but I'd be interested in your opinion. Jeff Newberry On Apr 6, 2005 10:03 PM, David Graham wrote: > > on 4/6/05 8:51 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Do they ever announce the other candidates for the Pulitzer Prize? > --------------------------------------- > > Yes. From the Pulitzer website: > > Also nominated as finalists in this category were: ?The Orchard? by Brigit > Pegeen Kelly (BOA Editions, Ltd.), and ?Search Party: Collected Poems? by > the late William Matthews (Houghton Mifflin). > > http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2005/poetry/ > > I think Kooser's a fine poet, but not giving the prize to Matthews's life > work is a crying shame. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 6 22:10:03 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:10:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer jurors Message-ID: <145.4323052d.2f85f07b@aol.com> In a message dated 4/6/2005 10:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > And the jurors this year were: > > Linda Gregerson, Frederick G.L. Huetwell Professor of English, University of > Michigan (Chair) > > James Baker Hall, professor of English emeritus, University of Kentucky, and > poet laureate > of Kentucky, 2001-02 > > Wesley McNair, poet, Norridgewock, Maine > James Baker Hall's last book was plain bad. I heard Wesley McNair read at Sunken Garden Poetry Festival and was dismayed by how shallow his sensibility was. Gergerson is a name I know..but her I've not enough experience with her poetry to say much. But if this the Pulitzer Prize committee, well then, it's not the A-team, shall we say. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Apr 7 00:40:26 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:40:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer stats In-Reply-To: <145.4323052d.2f85f07b@aol.com> Message-ID: James Baker Hall's last book was plain bad. I heard Wesley McNair read at Sunken Garden Poetry Festival and was dismayed by how shallow his sensibility was. Gergerson is a name I know..but her I've not enough experience with her poetry to say much. But if this the Pulitzer Prize committee, well then, it's not the A-team, shall we say. Finnegan ------------------------------------ I tend to think there is only one poet per year truly happy with the Pulitzer jury's taste. . . . In any case, now Ted Kooser joins the hallowed ranks of Audrey Wurdemann, Robert Hillyer, Peter Viereck, Leonora Speyer, et al. Whether he will turn out to be another Robert Frost or merely a Leonard Bacon remains to be seen, and will be determined by the only reliable jury we have. It's ever amusing to peruse the list of winners and finalists (available on the Pulitzer website). Among other things, you tend to notice poets who were nominated but lost. For example: In 1985, Robert Duncan and Charles Wright lost to Carolyn Kizer. The next year Henry Taylor bested Charles Simic. Rita Dove in 1987 beat both Charles Simic and Hayden Carruth, but the much-nominated and prolific Simic finally won his in 1990, beating out Adrienne Rich. In 1993, Louise Gluck beat both Ashbery and Merrill. But not to worry: both had already won one. Richard Hugo was twice nominated but never won. Neither Ginsberg nor Duncan ever won, despite one nomination apiece. Charles Wright may hold the record for nominations: he was a finalist four times, before he won on his fifth try, in 1998. Most surprising? Adrienne Rich: three nominations, no wins. Other losers? The list is, of course, very long, and includes Robert Creeley, Frank O'Hara, Robert Bly, Robert Hayden, William Stafford, Charles Olson, Kenneth Rexroth, James Dickey, A. R. Ammons, Denise Levertov, Kenneth Koch, not to mention prior Poets Laureate Robert Pinsky, Robert Hass, and Billy Collins. . . . Oh, and also T.S. Eliot, Ezra Pound, Hart Crane, Langston Hughes, Robinson Jeffers, and H.D. Robert Frost won four times. E. A. Robinson twice, along with Robert Lowell, Richard Wilbur, Archibald MacLeish, and Robert Penn Warren. Only one win apiece for William Carlos Williams and Wallace Stevens. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Apr 7 00:54:35 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:54:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Matthews In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050406190898c7d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: on 4/6/05 9:08 PM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: David, Can you post a couple of good Matthews poems if you have access? I suppose I could Google him, but I'd be interested in your opinion. Jeff Newberry ==================================== SPRING SNOW Here comes the powdered milk I drank as a child, and the money it saved. Here come the papers I delivered, the spotted dog in heat that followed me home and the dogs that followed her. Here comes a load of white laundry from basketball practice, and sheets with their watermarks of semen. And here comes snow, a language in which no word is ever repeated, love is impossible, and remorse. . . . Yet childhood doesn't end, but accumulates, each memory knit to the next, and the fields become one field. If to die is to lose all detail, then death is not so distinguished, but a profusion of detail, a last gossip, character passed wholly into fate and fate in flecks, like dust, like flour, like snow. --William Matthews ================================= Mingus At The Showplace I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen and so I swung into action and wrote a poem and it was miserable, for that was how I thought poetry worked: you digested experience shat literature. It was 1960 at The Showplace, long since defunct, on West 4th st., and I sat at the bar, casting beer money from a reel of ones, the kid in the city, big ears like a puppy. And I knew Mingus was a genius. I knew two other things, but as it happens they were wrong. So I made him look at this poem. "There's a lot of that going around," he said, and Sweet Baby Jesus he was right. He glowered at me but didn't look as if he thought bad poems were dangerous, the way some poets do. If they were baseball executives they'd plot to destroy sandlots everywhere so that the game could be saved from children. Of course later that night he fired his pianist in mid-number and flurried him from the stand. "We've suffered a diminuendo in personnel," he explained, and the band played on. ================================== A Poetry Reading At West Point I read to the entire plebe class, in two batches. Twice the hall filled with bodies dressed alike, each toting a copy of my book. What would my shrink say, if I had one, about such a dream, if it were a dream? Question and answer time. "Sir," a cadet yelled from the balcony, and gave his name and rank, and then, closing his parentheses, yelled "Sir" again. "Why do your poems give me a headache when I try to understand them?" he asked. "Do you want that?" I have a gift for gentle jokes to defuse tension, but this was not the time to use it. "I try to write as well as I can what it feels like to be human," I started, picking my way care- fully, for he and I were, after all, pained by the same dumb longings. "I try to say what I don't know how to say, but of course I can't get much of it down at all." By now I was sweating bullets. "I don't want my poems to be hard, unless the truth is, if there is a truth." Silence hung in the hall like a heavy fabric. My own head ached. "Sir," he yelled. "Thank you. Sir." --William Matthews ==================================== ON THE PORCH AT THE FROST PLACE, FRANCONIA, N. H. by William Matthews So here the great man stood, fermenting malice and poems we have to be nearly as fierce against ourselves as he not to misread by their disguises. Blue in dawn haze, the tamarack across the road is new since Frost and thirty feet tall already. No doubt he liked to scorch off morning fog by simply staring through it long enough so that what he saw grew visible. "Watching the dragon come out of the Notch," his children used to call it. And no wonder he chose a climate whose winter and house whose isolation could be stern enough to his wrath and pity as to make them seem survival skills he'd learned on the job, farming fifty acres of pasture and woods. For cash crops he had sweat and doubt and moralizing rage, those staples of the barter system. And these swift and aching summers, like the blackberries I've been poaching down the road from the house where no one's home -- acid at first and each little globe of the berry too taut and distinct from the others, then they swell to hold the riot of their juices and briefly the fat berries are perfected to my taste, and then they begin to leak and blob and under their crescendo of sugar I can taste how they make it through winter. . . . By the time I'm back from a last, six-berry raid, it's almost dusk, and more and more mosquitos will race around my ear their tiny engines, the speedboats of the insect world. I won't be longer on the porch than it takes to look out once and see what I've taught myself in two months here to discern: night restoring its opacities, though for an instant as intense and evanescent as waking from a dream of eating blackberries and almost being able to remember it, I think I see the parts -- haze, dusk, light broken into grains, fatigue, the mineral dark of the White Mountains, the wavering shadows steadying themselves -- separate, then joined, then seamless: the way, in fact, Frost's great poems, like all great poems, conceal what they merely know, to be predicaments. However long it took to watch what I thought I saw, it was dark when I was done, everywhere and on the porch, and since nothing stopped my sight, I let it go. =========================== IN MEMORY OF THE UTAH STARS Each of them must have terrified his parents by being so big, obsessive and exact so young, already gone and leaving, like a big tipper, that huge changeling's body in his place. The prince of bone spurs and bad knees. The year I first saw them play Malone was a high school freshman, already too big for any bed, 14, a natural resource. You have to learn not to apologize, a form of vanity. You flare up in the lane, exotic anywhere else. You roll the ball off fingers twice as long as your girlfriend's. Great touch for a big man, says some jerk. Now they're defunct and Moses Malone, boy wonder at 19, rises at 20 from the St. Louis bench, his pet of a body grown sullen as fast as it grew up. Something in you remembers every time the ball left your fingertips wrong and nothing the ball can do in the air will change that. You watch it set, stupid moon, the way you watch yourself in a recurring dream. You never lose your touch or forget how taxed bodies go at the same pace they owe, how brutally well the universe works to be beautiful, how we metabolize loss as fast as we have to. --William Matthews, fr. Rising & Falling ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 7 06:43:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 06:43:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer jurors References: Message-ID: <008001c53b5e$a13755d0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > And the jurors this year were: > > Linda Gregerson, Frederick G.L. Huetwell Professor of English, University > of > Michigan (Chair) > > James Baker Hall, professor of English emeritus, University of Kentucky, > and > poet laureate > of Kentucky, 2001-02 > > Wesley McNair, poet, Norridgewock, Maine Why have judges? Why not just put the name of every book of poetry published by a mainstream press into a hat and have a drawing? Or is that what they're already secretly doing? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 7 06:45:00 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 06:45:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer jurors References: <145.4323052d.2f85f07b@aol.com> Message-ID: <009401c53b5e$d9c1d290$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> And the jurors this year were: Linda Gregerson, Frederick G.L. Huetwell Professor of English, University of Michigan (Chair) James Baker Hall, professor of English emeritus, University of Kentucky, and poet laureate of Kentucky, 2001-02 Wesley McNair, poet, Norridgewock, Maine James Baker Hall's last book was plain bad. I heard Wesley McNair read at Sunken Garden Poetry Festival and was dismayed by how shallow his sensibility was. Gergerson is a name I know..but her I've not enough experience with her poetry to say much. But if this the Pulitzer Prize committee, well then, it's not the A-team, shall we say. Finnegan It's been a long long time since it was even the C-team. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 7 06:50:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 06:50:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer stats References: Message-ID: <00b201c53b5f$931e3710$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Pulitzer statsAs I keep saying, without any stasguard's being even slightly bothered by it, the fact that certain mainstream poets don't win the Pulitzer is not the scandal that the fact that NO burstnorm poet, even E. E. Cummings (I'm pretty sure) has ever won it. I suspect none has ever even been a finalist. A language poet will probably soon win it, though. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Apr 7 07:37:13 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:37:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer Message-ID: <19B23248.31A9F5C9.001A46F6@aol.com> one of the more dubious distinctions (designations?) that i've seen made all too often by publishers (and often by writers themselves in their promo materials) are those books/authors that claim "nominated for the pulitzer prize." since anyone--author, author's friend, publisher of the book--can "nominate" or enter into the competition any book that meets the eligibility requirements (including the the $50 submission fee) there seems little, if any, distinction of being nominated for the pulitzer prize, since there's no jurying or screening going on at the nomination stage. but since most people/readers don't know this, the author/book is likely to get a lot undue of mileage from this dubious designation. thom tammaro moorhead, mn From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 09:06:13 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:06:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer jurors In-Reply-To: <008001c53b5e$a13755d0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <008001c53b5e$a13755d0$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a0504070606a354dca@mail.gmail.com> Yeah. I'm sure that's *exactly* what they're doing. Couldn't be any different--nope. Jeff Newberry On Apr 7, 2005 6:43 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Why have judges? Why not just put the name of every book of poetry > published by a mainstream press into a hat and have a drawing? Or is that > what they're already secretly doing? > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Apr 7 09:56:18 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:56:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer nomination Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA67@URANIUM.ripon.college> Good point, Thom. A Pulitzer nomination is akin to being nominated for a Pushcart, I suppose: lots of people in that club. I hereby nominated Thom Tammaro and David Graham for next year's Pulitzers. (Now, would someone please publish us in 2005, so we can be eligible?) I should make clear that info in the Pulitzer Stats post I sent yesterday was taken from the Pulitzer site, and when I said "nominated," I should have said "was a finalist." That's generally 3 books per year singled out by the jury, one of which wins the prize. The Pulitzer site lists all poetry finalists since 1980, and all winners since the prize began in 1922. The vanity and futility of prizes is an old story and should go without saying, but the flesh is weak, and we who are serenely below the fray can find ourselves interested in the goings on far above us. It is, as I said, often amusing. I mean, a prize that was won by Archibald MacLeish twice but never by Eliot or Langston Hughes is by definition pretty funny, isn't it? In honor of my trip to the AWP in Vancouver, I've been on a little Canadian poetry jag, myself. I'm sure Canada has its own prizes, and I'm sure I'm glad not to know about them. Here's a lovely and quite relevant snippet from Leonard Cohen's song "Tower of Song": "I said to Hank Williams: how lonely does it get? Hank Williams hasn't answered yet But I hear him coughing all night long A hundred floors above me In the Tower of Song I was born like this, I had no choice I was born with the gift of a golden voice And twenty-seven angels from the Great Beyond They tied me to this table right here In the Tower of Song " --Leonard Cohen ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Thom424 at aol.com > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2005 6:37 AM > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer > > one of the more dubious distinctions (designations?) that i've seen made all too often by publishers (and often by writers themselves in their promo materials) are those books/authors that claim "nominated for the pulitzer prize." since anyone--author, author's friend, publisher of the book--can "nominate" or enter into the competition any book that meets the eligibility requirements (including the the $50 submission fee) there seems little, if any, distinction of being nominated for the pulitzer prize, since there's no jurying or screening going on at the nomination stage. but since most people/readers don't know this, the author/book is likely to get a lot undue of mileage from this dubious designation. > > thom tammaro > moorhead, mn > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Thu Apr 7 10:06:41 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:06:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CALL ME INACCESABLE Message-ID: <005001c53b7b$06a2dcc0$bf0b9942@Helen> A few years back I was reading a review in POETRY and was inspired (or the god of parody swept me away) to write the following FOUND poem - the lines taken from the said review. And careless, as always, I did not write down the offending author (expecting he would not want credit) or any other of the required bibliographic data. And this is why poetry is in such a sorry state? The culture of obfuscatory delineation? Enjoy - MISTAKEN HISTORICITY a lack of any historicity unconscious borrowing from the dominant oppressive epistemologies what is . . . not oppressed and because it doesn't know it a clumsy Sandburg attempting hermeneutic time travel a fictive condition borrowed entirely without awareness he is not alone cultural syntax response constructed entirely of tachyons just uncritical . . . but dangerous stress in Washington a sense of urgency ubiquitous historical rationalism applying magical mathematical computability to historicity the arrow of time servile status in light our dominant epistemologies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Thu Apr 7 10:31:34 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Matthews In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What a wonderful selection. I got him to mentor me by mail for a while when I was home in a bathrobe with my first baby thirteen years ago right about now. Just called him up on the phone at City College and asked. He read my work, agreed, and we worked for about six months on a monthly packet system, until one or another recession came and I couldn't afford it any more. It was a sweet, good experience. On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, David Graham wrote: > on 4/6/05 9:08 PM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: > > David, > > Can you post a couple of good Matthews poems if you have access? > > I suppose I could Google him, but I'd be interested in your opinion. > > Jeff Newberry > ==================================== > > SPRING SNOW > > > Here comes the powdered milk I drank > as a child, and the money it saved. > Here come the papers I delivered, > the spotted dog in heat that followed me home > > and the dogs that followed her. > Here comes a load of white laundry > from basketball practice, and sheets > with their watermarks of semen. > > And here comes snow, a language > in which no word is ever repeated, > love is impossible, and remorse. . . . > Yet childhood doesn't end, > > but accumulates, each memory > knit to the next, and the fields > become one field. If to die is to lose > all detail, then death is not > > so distinguished, but a profusion > of detail, a last gossip, character > passed wholly into fate and fate > in flecks, like dust, like flour, like snow. > > --William Matthews > ================================= > > Mingus At The Showplace > > I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen > and so I swung into action and wrote a poem > > and it was miserable, for that was how I thought > poetry worked: you digested experience shat > > literature. It was 1960 at The Showplace, long since > defunct, on West 4th st., and I sat at the bar, > > casting beer money from a reel of ones, > the kid in the city, big ears like a puppy. > > And I knew Mingus was a genius. I knew two > other things, but as it happens they were wrong. > > So I made him look at this poem. > "There's a lot of that going around," he said, > > and Sweet Baby Jesus he was right. He glowered > at me but didn't look as if he thought > > bad poems were dangerous, the way some poets do. > If they were baseball executives they'd plot > > to destroy sandlots everywhere so that the game > could be saved from children. Of course later > > that night he fired his pianist in mid-number > and flurried him from the stand. > > "We've suffered a diminuendo in personnel," > he explained, and the band played on. > ================================== > > A Poetry Reading At West Point > > I read to the entire plebe class, > in two batches. Twice the hall filled > with bodies dressed alike, each toting > a copy of my book. What would my > shrink say, if I had one, about > such a dream, if it were a dream? > > Question and answer time. > "Sir," a cadet yelled from the balcony, > and gave his name and rank, and then, > closing his parentheses, yelled > "Sir" again. "Why do your poems give > me a headache when I try > > to understand them?" he asked. "Do > you want that?" I have a gift for > gentle jokes to defuse tension, > but this was not the time to use it. > "I try to write as well as I can > what it feels like to be human," > > I started, picking my way care- > fully, for he and I were, after > all, pained by the same dumb longings. > "I try to say what I don't know > how to say, but of course I can't > get much of it down at all." > > By now I was sweating bullets. > "I don't want my poems to be hard, > unless the truth is, if there is > a truth." Silence hung in the hall > like a heavy fabric. My own > head ached. "Sir," he yelled. "Thank you. Sir." > > --William Matthews > ==================================== > > ON THE PORCH AT THE FROST PLACE, FRANCONIA, N. H. > > by William Matthews > > So here the great man stood, > fermenting malice and poems > we have to be nearly as fierce > against ourselves as he > not to misread by their disguises. > Blue in dawn haze, the tamarack > across the road is new since Frost > and thirty feet tall already. > No doubt he liked to scorch off > morning fog by simply staring through it > long enough so that what he saw > grew visible. "Watching the dragon > come out of the Notch," his children > used to call it. And no wonder > he chose a climate whose winter > and house whose isolation could be > stern enough to his wrath and pity > as to make them seem survival skills > he'd learned on the job, farming > fifty acres of pasture and woods. > For cash crops he had sweat and doubt > and moralizing rage, those staples > of the barter system. And these swift > and aching summers, like the blackberries > I've been poaching down the road > from the house where no one's home -- > acid at first and each little globe > of the berry too taut and distinct > from the others, then they swell to hold > the riot of their juices and briefly > the fat berries are perfected to my taste, > and then they begin to leak and blob > and under their crescendo of sugar > I can taste how they make it through winter. . . . > By the time I'm back from a last, > six-berry raid, it's almost dusk, > and more and more mosquitos > will race around my ear their tiny engines, > the speedboats of the insect world. > I won't be longer on the porch > than it takes to look out once > and see what I've taught myself > in two months here to discern: > night restoring its opacities, > though for an instant as intense > and evanescent as waking from a dream > of eating blackberries and almost > being able to remember it, I think > I see the parts -- haze, dusk, light > broken into grains, fatigue, > the mineral dark of the White Mountains, > the wavering shadows steadying themselves -- > separate, then joined, then seamless: > the way, in fact, Frost's great poems, > like all great poems, conceal > what they merely know, to be > predicaments. However long > it took to watch what I thought > I saw, it was dark when I was done, > everywhere and on the porch, > and since nothing stopped > my sight, I let it go. > > =========================== > > > IN MEMORY OF THE UTAH STARS > > > > Each of them must have terrified > his parents by being so big, obsessive > and exact so young, already gone > and leaving, like a big tipper, > that huge changeling's body in his place. > The prince of bone spurs and bad knees. > > The year I first saw them play > Malone was a high school freshman, > already too big for any bed, > 14, a natural resource. > You have to learn not to > apologize, a form of vanity. > You flare up in the lane, exotic > anywhere else. You roll the ball > off fingers twice as long as your > girlfriend's. Great touch for a big man, > says some jerk. Now they're defunct > and Moses Malone, boy wonder at 19, > rises at 20 from the St. Louis bench, > his pet of a body grown sullen > as fast as it grew up. > > Something in you remembers every > time the ball left your fingertips > wrong and nothing the ball > can do in the air will change that. > You watch it set, stupid moon, > the way you watch yourself > in a recurring dream. > You never lose your touch > or forget how taxed bodies > go at the same pace they owe, > how brutally well the universe > works to be beautiful, > how we metabolize loss > as fast as we have to. > > --William Matthews, fr. Rising & Falling > > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Apr 7 12:51:59 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:51:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pulitzer Nominations Message-ID: <1629D8EF.2449F4E4.001A46F6@aol.com> david-- better yet, david--you publish my book & i'll publish yours. we can them nominate each other! here's a poem from one of my favorite canadian poets, alden nowlan ``````````````````````````````` The Bull Moose Down from the purple mist of trees on the mountain, lurching through forests of white spruce and cedar, stumbling through tamarack swamps, came the bull moose to be stopped at last by a pole-fenced pasture. Too tired to turn or, perhaps, aware there was no place left to go, he stood with the cattle. They, scenting the musk of death, seeing his great head like the ritual mask of a blood god, moved to the other end of the field, and waited. The neighbours heard of it, and by afternoon cars lined the road. The children teased him with alder switches and he gazed at them like an old, tolerant collie. The woman asked if he could have escaped from a Fair. The oldest man in the parish remembered seeing a gelded moose yoked with an ox for plowing. The young men snickered and tried to pour beer down his throat, while their girl friends took their pictures. And the bull moose let them stroke his tick-ravaged flanks, let them pry open his jaws with bottles, let a giggling girl plant a little purple cap of thistles on his head. When the wardens came, everyone agreed it was a shame to shoot anything so shaggy and cuddlesome. He looked like the kind of pet women put to bed with their sons. So they held their fire. But just as the sun dropped in theRiver the bull moose gathered his strength like a scaffolded king, straightened and lifted his horns so that even the wardens backed away as they raised their rifles. When he roared, people ran to their cars. All the young men leaned on their automobile horns as he toppled. Alden Nowlan >Thom Tammaro >PO Box 30 >Department of English >Minnesota State University Moorhead >Moorhead, MN 56563 >218-477-2199 Office >218-477-2945 FAX > > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Apr 7 13:08:24 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:08:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alden Nowlan Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA6B@URANIUM.ripon.college> david-- here's a poem from one of my favorite canadian poets, alden nowlan . . . . ``````````````````````````````` Delighted to find another Alden Nowlan fan! I was a little surprised, cruising the bookstores new & used in Vancouver, not to find a single Nowlan book anywhere. Has his star declined since he died? Broadcaster's Poem I used to broadcast at night alone in a radio station but I was never good at it partly because my voice wasn't right but mostly because my peculiar metaphysical stupidity made it impossible for me to keep believing their was somebody listening when it seemd I was talking only to myuself in a room no bigger than an ordinary bathroom I could believe it for a while and then I'd get somewhat the same feeling as when you start to suspect you're the victim of a practical joke So one part of me was afraid another part might blurt out something about myself so terrible that even I had never until that moment suspected it This was like the fear of bridges and other high places: Will I take off my glasses and throw them into the water, although I'm half blind without them? Will I sneak up behind myself and push? Another thing: As a reporter I covered an accident in which a train ran into a car, killing three young men, one of whom was beheaded. The bodies looked boneless, as such bodies do More like mounds of rags and inside the wreckage where nobody could get at it the car radio was still playing I thought about places the disc jockey's voice goes and the things that happen there and of how impossible it would be for him to continue if he really knew. Alden Nowlan ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Thom424 at aol.com > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2005 11:51 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pulitzer Nominations > > david-- > > better yet, david--you publish my book & i'll publish yours. we can them nominate each other! > > here's a poem from one of my favorite canadian poets, alden nowlan > > > ``````````````````````````````` > The Bull Moose > > > Down from the purple mist of trees on the mountain, > lurching through forests of white spruce and cedar, > stumbling through tamarack swamps, > came the bull moose > to be stopped at last by a pole-fenced pasture. > > Too tired to turn or, perhaps, aware > there was no place left to go, he stood with the cattle. > They, scenting the musk of death, seeing his great head > like the ritual mask of a blood god, moved to the other end > of the field, and waited. > > The neighbours heard of it, and by afternoon > cars lined the road. The children teased him > with alder switches and he gazed at them > like an old, tolerant collie. The woman asked > if he could have escaped from a Fair. > > The oldest man in the parish remembered seeing > a gelded moose yoked with an ox for plowing. > The young men snickered and tried to pour beer > down his throat, while their girl friends took their pictures. > > And the bull moose let them stroke his tick-ravaged flanks, > let them pry open his jaws with bottles, let a giggling girl > plant a little purple cap of thistles on his head. > > When the wardens came, everyone agreed it was a shame > to shoot anything so shaggy and cuddlesome. > He looked like the kind of pet > women put to bed with their sons. > > So they held their fire. But just as the sun dropped in theRiver > > the bull moose gathered his strength > like a scaffolded king, straightened and lifted his horns > so that even the wardens backed away as they raised their rifles. > > When he roared, people ran to their cars. All the young men > leaned on their automobile horns as he toppled. > > Alden Nowlan > > > > > > >Thom Tammaro > >PO Box 30 > >Department of English > >Minnesota State University Moorhead > >Moorhead, MN 56563 > >218-477-2199 Office > >218-477-2945 FAX > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 7 13:43:08 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (anny) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:43:08 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The American Literary West: I International Conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4252471E00140BFB@vsmtp2.tin.it> (added by postmaster@virgilio.it) The American Literary West: I International Conference University of the Basque Country, Vitoria-Gasteiz, Spain October 6-7, 2005 Call for Papers This international conference will focus on the different ways in which literary interpreters of the American West have shaped and reshaped traditional western imagery and themes. We would like this conference to offer as diverse and rich a picture of current research on the literature of the American West as possible. We particularly invite specialists of western literary studies to consider the increasing recognition and visibility of contemporary western writing in the American literary stream. Papers can address a variety of critical issues in literary studies of the West: - the role of ?place?, ?space?, and ?region? in western writing - the interaction between myth and history - the construction and deconstruction of western stereotypes - gender politics and power - border issues - the role of ethnicity (multiculturalism, assimilation, transculturation...) - the impact of globalization, urbanization, and technology on the West - nature writing and environmental concerns - the popular West - the New West - geographical displacement - regional identity - cultural transfers between literature and films... Papers should not exceed 10 pages (2,500-3,000 words: 20 minutes? delivery). Although English will be the official language of the Conference, papers in Spanish or Basque will also be accepted. The conference will be held at the Faculty of Philology, University of the Basque Country, Vitoria-Gasteiz. Keynote speakers: Frank Bergon (Vassar College, New York), Maria Herrera-Sobek (U. California-Sta. Barbara), Richard W. Etulain (U. New Mexico), David Fenimore (U. Nevada-Reno) Please submit your proposal (300 words) plus a brief CV to the conference organizers by May 1, 2005. Proposals may be submitted via e-mail to David Rio (fiprirad at vc.ehu.es) or Amaia Ibarraran (fipibbia at vc.ehu.es). Organizing Committee: David Rio Amaia Ibarraran Federico Egu?luz M? Felisa L?pez -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 7 14:00:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (anny) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:00:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Imperial cultures: Transatlantic perspectives on empires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <422481CF00FB0307@vsmtp12.tin.it> (added by postmaster@virgilio.it) ? From: Pierre Guerlain [ mailto:pierre.guerlain at u-paris10.fr] > Date: woensdag 6 april 2005 12:01 ? International Conference Paris X Nanterre University (France) November 17-18, 2005 IMPERIAL CULTURES : TRANSATLANTIC PERSPECTIVES ON EMPIRES The new political conjuncture, which for the past two years has been epitomized by the war in Iraq, may indicate certain major shifts now affecting the paradigms which, for the past twenty years, have constituted the dominant horizon of intellectual debate. The various academic disciplines which together make up "English and American studies" - from historiography to literary theory, not forgetting the analysis of political institutions and the current state of international relations - thus offer a series of privileged vantage-points for the observation and examination of these shifts. The recent precipitation of these evolutions in the context of the war in Iraq and, beyond this, the possible future extension of U.S. military intervention, have lent a renewed urgency to the need for an inquiry involving a confrontation of the various disciplinary viewpoints on the current pertinence of the concepts of empire and imperialism. Such an inquiry inevitably has implications for a whole range of presuppositions that are commonly drawn upon for the analysis of globalization and its effects on the societies located at the heart of the new Empire (whose existence and whose manifestations must be examined). The current conjuncture would seem to distort the conceptual and interpretational template which the triumph of "the new world order" (so near to us in time, so strangely distant now) had propagated. The current tuning of critical attentions to the question of empire and imperialism thus amounts to a epochal shift, involving a displacement in concepts, notions, presuppositions. New questions emerge, while other, older questions take on a renewed urgency. The following enumeration is tentatively put forward: - questions of history and geopolitics: the pertinence of the comparisons between the present situation and the experience of an earlier, imperialist modernity; the legacy, today, of discourses of the "mission" or "destiny" of "civilization"; the specific traits assumed by the domination currently exercised by the United States; the economic and political stakes (such as the control of energy supplies) involved, in the light of the emergence of China as a superpower; the validity of possible comparisons between current U.S. military policies in the Middle East and those implemented in Central and South America; relations between the British and American empires, questions of heritage and rupture, the exemplarity or otherwise of the former for today's neo-imperialists. - question of theory: what, today, is the philosophical thinking of the totality?; how do we analyze the quest for identity/identities or the new forms of identity politics and their inscription on what new map of the world?; how do we think through the categories of difference, alterity, universalism?; what, in this context, is the contribution of Marxist, post-colonial and subaltern studies? - questions of cultural analysis: is there a contemporary imperial imaginary?; how is it linked to the dynamic of concentration at work in the culture and media industry?; how does the Empire structure the societies of the center and those of the periphery? - questions of local, domestic politics: what today are the countervailing powers, in the United States or in Great Britain?; from what vantage-point and by whom is the critique of the imperial-military re-centering of globalization formulated?; how are we to assess the situation of the various communities in Great Britain and in the United States, notably the quasi-colonial situation of African Americans in the United States?; how are we to evaluate the magnitude of the threats posed by the deployment of the new security technologies and by the juridical procedures which, in the name of the fight against terrorism, are endangering civil liberties: to what extent is there a link between the arsenal of domestic anti-labor legislation and neo-imperialist considerations? - Lastly, questions relative to the field of intellectual inquiry: who, whether inside or outside the imperial societies, is it who "thinks" Empire and imperialism. How are we to assess the globalization of anti-imperialist or alternative-globalist thinking? What are the obstacles and resistances encountered by Empire, and can we envisage a decline or a radical transformation of imperialism? For information about the conference, please contact: Pierre Guerlain, pierre.guerlain at u-paris10.fr (for the proposal of papers about the United States) Thierry Labica, thierry.labica at wanadoo.fr (for the proposal of papers about Great Britain) Deadline for the submission of a one-page outline: June 1, 2005. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 7 14:03:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (anny) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:03:56 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Becoming Visible: Women in PUblic in Nineteenth-Century America In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <425541070001F1C4@vsmtp1.tin.it> (added by postmaster@virgilio.it) > Fron: Richard J Ellis [ mailto:r.j.ellis at bham.ac.uk] > Date: 28 februari 2005 16:20 Call for Position Papers: 'Becoming Visible: Women in Public in Nineteenth-Century America' A colloquium for scholars working in the field of nineteenth-century American women's writing Keynote Speakers: Professor Susan K. Harris, Joyce and Elizabeth Hall Distinguished Professor of American Literature and Culture, University of Kansas, author of Nineteenth-Century American Women's Writing: Interpretative Strategies and The Cultural Work of the Late Nineteenth-Century Hostess. Professor Anne C. Boylan, Professor of History at the University of Delaware, author of Sunday Schools, The Formation of an American Institution 1790-1880 and The Origins of Women's Activism. Professor Boylan is currently focusing on post-bellum women's voluntary organizations before the rise of the social work profession and settlement houses. Professor Janet Zandy (Rochester Institute of Technology), author of Hands: Physical Labor, Class and Cultural Work, whose work centres on the visibility of working-class women and their writing. This is a Call for Position Papers and How to Register This colloquium, originating in the activities of the UK Nineteenth-Century American Women Writers Research Group. NCAWWRG was founded in 1995 to bring together scholars across the country in a programme of twice-yearly day-seminars, group appearances at major conferences in UK and USA, and the publication, to date, of two well-received volumes of essays. This will be its first full-scale conference and will provide European Americanists with a rare opportunity to bring together existing work on the public presence of women. The colloquium is designed to bring together all UK and European scholars interested in how new critical and historical work on 'the public' might inform understandings of women's public interventions and appearances in the post-bellum period. The conference is exploring questions about what was deemed 'public' for women, when a woman stepped 'out' into it, and how she was seen as she entered the spaces of the public, thereby exploring the complex scene of multiple publics and counter-publics, with which women of varied groups and classes could engage, either in activity outside the home, in public activities within domestic settings or in the workplace. Apart from a series of keynote lecture by Harris, Boylan and Zandy, the conference will consist of a series of panels. Rather than the customary 20 minute papers, the participants (working across disciplines and focusing on various examples) are being asked to present 10 minute position papers that will then open up a substantial space for general discussion with a wider range of colleagues interested in the area. Each panel will take a particular space: the street performance journalism and publishing public institutions the mechanized working space All this will stimulate a process, already begun, of generating a publication (to be edited by A. Easton (Lancaster), R.J. Ellis (Birmingham) and J. Floyd (King's London)) that will make a fresh intervention in the field. Submit proposals of circa 250 words to Janet Floyd janet.floyd at kcl.ac.uk < mailto:janet.floyd at kcl.ac.uk> For details of how to register, contact Janet Floyd janet.floyd at kcl.ac.uk < mailto:janet.floyd at kcl.ac.uk> _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 7 14:07:25 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (anny) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:07:25 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Americanization" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <422481CF00FB0E0A@vsmtp12.tin.it> (added by postmaster@virgilio.it) > From: Dr. Katja Kanzler [ mailto:kkanzler at rz.uni-leipzig.de] > Date: dinsdag 29 maart 2005 14:36 This conference seeks to explore the complex dynamics involved in the 'Americanization' of popular and consumer cultures across Europe during the years 1945-89. A central concern will be to advance scholarship on 'Americanization' by asking for the experience of Central and Eastern Europe. Here 'Americanization' figured within a political, cultural, and economic context that defined itself in sharp contrast to 'America.' Accordingly, the conference is not primarily interested in Americanization as an instrument of U.S. cultural diplomacy (i.e., in its 'official' political dimension) but rather in its varying impact on everyday experiences and practices of Europeans. In Reinhold Wagnleitner's words, America's most alluring promise has been "the pursuit of happiness in its most updated version, as the pursuit of consumption" (2001). Throughout the Cold War years, American goods and lifestyles traveled across political boundaries, generating (and gratifying) different desires and fantasies; they have since become icons in intense political debates in which 'America' serves as a signifier for variously accentuated notions of capitalism and/or modernity. The conference situates itself within recent scholarship that no longer conceptualizes 'Americanization' as a unidirectional transfer of goods and policies merely 'affecting' passive recipients, but as a range of complex processes of cultural mixing, a cultural praxis of appropriation. Such an understanding of 'Americanization' draws attention to the cultural work of selecting and adapting objects and practices perceived as 'American' (however incorrectly), as well as to the socio-cultural, political, and economic conditions that circumscribe these consumer choices as serving important 'local' functions. Previous scholarship suggests these local functions often involve issues of cultural self-fashioning. However, the question of what role 'America' has played in the (ongoing) negotiation of inter- and intra-cultural identities in Europe remains to be addressed. Rather than trying to grasp 'Americanization' by defining its contours, we seek to understand it from the various ambivalences of its boundaries, parameters and modes of engagement. We see such ambivalences operating on three levels: in the dynamics of cultural transfer, in the practices of appropriation, and in the ways in which theorizing these phenomena itself becomes entangled in some of the generalizations at stake. We invite case studies that explore any of these moments (or others) in popular and consumer cultures of Central and Eastern Europe. The conference is part of an ongoing research and teaching project involving faculty and advanced students at the University of Leipzig and accordingly aims to reflect the group's cooperative atmosphere. In order to make our meeting as productive (and dialogic) as possible, we invite participants to share their papers in advance. Please submit your proposal (title and abstract, no more than 300 words) plus a short cv to: Dr. Katja Kanzler Leipzig University Institute for American Studies kkanzler at rz.uni-leipzig.de by May 15, 2005. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Apr 7 15:14:55 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:14:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alden Nowlan Message-ID: <163D7AAF.6CF853A4.001A46F6@aol.com> david, i've not kept up with the canadian scene in the past eight years or so, as much as i did back in the early-mid 90s when some of us here in minnesota & north dakota initiated a series of reading exchanges & conferences with writers from several of the prairie provinces. nowlan's *what happened when he went to the store to get bread* was published by bly's 90s press (in 1993, i think) and edited by thomas smith. it had great success for a small american press publishing work by a somewhat obscure canadian writer (at least obscure to american readers). smith also writes a nice introduction to nowlan & his work. lorna corzier (another favorite canadian poet of mine) co-edited with patric lane a selected nowlan in--and i'm guessing here--1996. it was published by a canadian press. shortly thereafter, a biography of nowlan appeared (2000--if that's shortly thereafter), and then a collection of critical essays about nowlan's work. i'm guessing he's still read and anthologized and will continue to be counted among any group of contemporary canadian writing. i've not read the biography, nor the collection of critical essays. somewhere in a box in my 5x10 storage unit in south moorhead i've a copy of that crozier/lane selected nowlan. i hope that's not a metaphor for what happened to nowlan. didn't make it to vancouver this year, but hope to be in austin next spring. by then the frost anthology will have ben out for 4-5 months, and i'm hope to be there hawking copies the iowa table. adios, thom From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 7 16:14:57 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:14:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CALL ME INACCESABLE References: <005001c53b7b$06a2dcc0$bf0b9942@Helen> Message-ID: <014c01c53bae$78628d00$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> A few years back I was reading a review in POETRY and was inspired (or the god of parody swept me away) to write the following FOUND poem - the lines taken from the said review. And careless, as always, I did not write down the offending author (expecting he would not want credit) or any other of the required bibliographic data. And this is why poetry is in such a sorry state? The culture of obfuscatory delineation? Enjoy - MISTAKEN HISTORICITY a lack of any historicity unconscious borrowing from the dominant oppressive epistemologies what is . . . not oppressed and because it doesn't know it a clumsy Sandburg attempting hermeneutic time travel a fictive condition borrowed entirely without awareness he is not alone cultural syntax response constructed entirely of tachyons just uncritical . . . but dangerous stress in Washington a sense of urgency ubiquitous historical rationalism applying magical mathematical computability to historicity the arrow of time servile status in light our dominant epistemologies This surprises me as it's the kind of thing Poetry is always inveighing against, I thought. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 7 16:27:14 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:27:14 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] pc problems References: <163D7AAF.6CF853A4.001A46F6@aol.com> Message-ID: <01cb01c53bb0$30a61200$36ad3252@ANNY> I finally reconfigured the entire system, lost all my data, to discover that the trouble is due to a hardware problem, the pc warms up too quickly, thus the continuous automatic switching off in the last month. So I haven't solved anything, but made things worse. or better at least I know what is wrong. I also lost all my addresses, if you wish to be on my address book, please send me a mail. Thank you for your patience, Anny Ballardini anny.ballardini at tin.it From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 7 16:43:04 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:43:04 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Laurence Dunbar: A Centennial Conference at Stanford University References: <005001c53b7b$06a2dcc0$bf0b9942@Helen> <014c01c53bae$78628d00$50b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01f901c53bb2$66107820$36ad3252@ANNY> From: Richard Yarborough [mailto:yarborou at humnet.ucla.edu] Date: donderdag 7 april 2005 22:35 Stanford University's Program in American Studies announces Paul Laurence Dunbar: A Centennial Conference at Stanford University March 9-11, 2006 This conference will celebrate the centennial of Dunbar's death by exploring new critical perspectives on the full range of his career as a poet, novelist, lyricist, dramatist, and journalist. The conference organizers will edit a selection of the papers for a special issue of African American Review. We welcome papers exploring Dunbar as an individual challenged by complex psychological, esthetic, social, and political pressures. We seek lectures that place h! im in the context of historical phenomena such as slavery and the Civil War, Reconstruction, lynching, race riots, and landmark Jim Crow legislation such as Plessy v. Ferguson. We want to consider Dunbar as a regional, national, and international writer, and as a stylistic innovator of the highest order. We also invite papers on his relationship to his literary predecessors, contemporaries, and successors--writers such as Harriet Beecher Stowe, James Whitcomb Riley, William Dean Howells, Frederick Douglass, Ida B. Wells, Mark Twain, W.E.B. Du Bois, Booker T. Washington, Charles Chesnutt, James Weldon Johnson, Alice Dunbar-Nelson, Langston Hughes, and more recent poets. We also hope to explore Dunbar's engagement with the musical theater, popular song, minstrelsy, spoken-word poetry, and reading-speaking tours; with visual culture, such as the Hampton Camera Club; and with notable cultural events, such as the World's Columbian Exposition. ! Sponsored by the American Studies Program at Stanford University, this conference is organized by the director of the program, Shelley Fisher Fishkin, Gavin Jones (Stanford), Meta DuEwa Jones (George Washington), Arnold Rampersad (Stanford), and Richard Yarborough (UCLA). Co-sponsors include the Office of the President of Stanford University; Office of the Dean of Humanities & Sciences; Department of English; Department of History; Stanford Continuing Studies; Program in African and African American Studies; Stanford Humanities Center; and the Central Region Humanities Center. If you are interested in presenting a paper, or in attending the conference, please let us know at once at the email address below. Note that August 1 is the deadline for receiving paper proposals. To propose a paper, please send an abstract of about 600 words in length by August 1, 2005, along with a one-page c.v. and contact information to: DunbarConference at stanford.edu The conference will be free to all registrants. In addition, we expect to provide travel and lodging support for all presenters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 7 16:50:29 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:50:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer nomination Message-ID: <143.42e473d4.2f86f715@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2005 9:56:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: The vanity and futility of prizes is an old story and should go without saying, but the flesh is weak, and we who are serenely below the fray can find ourselves interested in the goings on far above us. It is, as I said, often amusing. I mean, a prize that was won by Archibald MacLeish twice but never by Eliot or Langston Hughes is by definition pretty funny, isn't it? Vargaries and lapses aplently along the way in prize awarding... though MacLeish wrote some keepers. I think the problem is that the Pulitzer Prize organization itself needs to start taking their own award a little more seriously. After all, it's an award that typically appears very early on in the obit of a dead poet. Well ahead of most other prizes that are listed, except for perhaps a Nobel. I'm not begrudging Kooser getting the award, I'm just saying that this year's group of jurors looked pretty thin to me. Gregerson, Baker Hall, McNair might make for a half-way impressive MFA thesis committee or a goodly set of judges awarding a first book ms. prize, but for the Pulitzer Prize? Maybe this is real evidence that the culture doesn't take poetry very seriously. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 7 17:00:33 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:00:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer nomination In-Reply-To: <143.42e473d4.2f86f715@aol.com> Message-ID: Fat jurors are what we need. I think that anyone who seeks to judge the work of others should tip the scales at least at two hundred pounds (and a couple dozen eliots besides). Hal I'm not begrudging Kooser getting the award, I'm just saying that this year's group of jurors looked pretty thin to me. Gregerson, Baker Hall, McNair might make for a half-way impressive MFA thesis committee or a goodly set of judges awarding a first book ms. prize, but for the Pulitzer Prize? Maybe this is real evidence that the culture doesn't take poetry very seriously. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Apr 7 17:13:26 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:13:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulitzer nomination Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA6D@URANIUM.ripon.college> Fat jurors are what we need. I think that anyone who seeks to judge the work of others should tip the scales at least at two hundred pounds (and a couple dozen eliots besides). Hal =============== Ah, yes. In Dylan Thomas's immortal phrase, fat poets with slim volumes! ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Apr 7 22:59:25 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:59:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] There was a young writer from Yake Message-ID: <000801c53be6$f9933c20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Camille Paglia, in Salon: My publisher forwarded this amusing thing from Gawker.com the other day -- it was reporting on the review of my book in the New York Times Book Review. It really was quite revealing. It was written by a young woman who said she was a recent graduate of Yale. And she said that as she was reading that long, three-page review by Clive James, her eyes glazed over because it was about poetry. And I thought, Oh, my God -- if this isn't a testament to what's gone wrong in the Ivy League! Here you have a smart young aspiring writer who's saying that somehow she has not been educated in a way that allows her to appreciate poetry. She's never been shown that you can become a better prose writer through reading poetry. I certainly derived my skills as a prose writer from my scrutiny of poetry and of the individual word. But schools don't do things like that anymore -- tracking words down to their roots. It's hopelessly old-fashioned. But that's the whole basis of the power of English as a literary language. I say in my introduction that I'm in love with English -- it's a phenomenal instrument. People who like my work recognize that I have many styles as a writer -- the high academic style, the newspaper style, the conversational style. My sense of English comes from the fact that I was born into an Italian immigrant family which was still discovering America. Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 8 02:02:15 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:02:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] There was a young writer from Yake References: <000801c53be6$f9933c20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <08e201c53c00$848b10a0$5f169c51@Robin> From: The Old Mole << Camille Paglia, in Salon: My publisher forwarded this amusing thing from Gawker.com the other day -- it was reporting on the review of my book in the New York Times Book Review. It really was quite revealing. It was written by a young woman who said she was a recent graduate of Yale. And she said that as she was reading that long, three-page review by Clive James, her eyes glazed over because it was about poetry. >> Well, frankly, eyes glazing over is an entirely appropriate response to anything written, uttered, or conveyed by Clive James, whether in print or on TV. Seems to me to admirably demonstrate that the young lady from Yale has excellent taste and judgement. Robin There was a young lady from Yale Who boked at Clive James -- in a pail -- His critique is lousy, Camill'e quite frowzy: And it shouldn't be passed in the mail. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 8 02:27:29 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:27:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] There was a young writer from Yake References: <000801c53be6$f9933c20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <08fa01c53c04$0a876bb0$5f169c51@Robin> << Camille Paglia, in Salon: I say in my introduction that I'm in love with English -- it's a phenomenal instrument. People who like my work recognize that I have many styles as a writer -- the high academic style, the newspaper style, the conversational style. >> Sheesh, when I was maybe twenty, I began to make the central focus of my work register-jumping -- is this woman stupid, or simply illiterate and with a tin ear? HOWL!!!!!! R. CP's prose style would make your teeth bleed -- a restricted and platitudinous linguistic register. Angels weep, when idiots tramp on your grave. :-( Mitlon From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 8 08:08:08 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:08:08 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] There was a young writer from Yake References: <000801c53be6$f9933c20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001801c53c33$a1fc43b0$6aaa3452@ANNY> I think that the idea of being a foreigner makes people more sensitive to their environment, especially to languages, and what I am noticing on myself is that it is a long process, it seems as if you could not grasp entirely one or the other language. Passages from one language to another can create confusion, irritation, a feeling of loss, or nourish your expression and widen your way of seeing things. Interesting what you sent Tad, thank you for it. Renewal comes from change, the extreme form of change is shock which projects you back brand new into the world with an acute sense of longing, of pain without any epicenter, ephemeral, all around you, as if you were pain, new, surprised and astonished all in one. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 4:59 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] There was a young writer from Yake Camille Paglia, in Salon: My publisher forwarded this amusing thing from Gawker.com the other day -- it was reporting on the review of my book in the New York Times Book Review. It really was quite revealing. It was written by a young woman who said she was a recent graduate of Yale. And she said that as she was reading that long, three-page review by Clive James, her eyes glazed over because it was about poetry. And I thought, Oh, my God -- if this isn't a testament to what's gone wrong in the Ivy League! Here you have a smart young aspiring writer who's saying that somehow she has not been educated in a way that allows her to appreciate poetry. She's never been shown that you can become a better prose writer through reading poetry. I certainly derived my skills as a prose writer from my scrutiny of poetry and of the individual word. But schools don't do things like that anymore -- tracking words down to their roots. It's hopelessly old-fashioned. But that's the whole basis of the power of English as a literary language. I say in my introduction that I'm in love with English -- it's a phenomenal instrument. People who like my work recognize that I have many styles as a writer -- the high academic style, the newspaper style, the conversational style. My sense of English comes from the fact that I was born into an Italian immigrant family which was still discovering America. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 8 11:44:16 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:44:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? Message-ID: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> Anyone have a good Pope (not Alexander, rather Karol Wojtyla) poem to post? John Paul II was a poet early in his life. (I could only think of Sharon Olds' naughty "The Pope's Penis." ) Early this morning, a priest named Fr. Frank Russo on CBS News coverage of the funeral read a nice poem by St. John of the Cross. Pope John Paul II apparently wrote his graduate thesis (I think he said) on the mystical poetry of St. John of Cross. I'll try to find that poem to post. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 8 11:44:56 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:44:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Griffin Poetry Prize, shortlist Message-ID: <89.2491eaba.2f8800f8@aol.com> http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/04/07/Arts/griffinshortlist050407.h tml?ref=rss TORONTO - George Bowering, Canada's first poet laureate, is among the poets shortlisted for the $100,000 Griffin Poetry Prize. One of the richest of its kind, the prize is divided in two, with the international winner receiving $50,000 and the Canadian winner receiving $50,000. "Poetry had tended to slip out of the mainstream of our cultural lives. Poets were not only at the back of the bus, I'm not even sure they were even on the bus," founder Scott Griffin told CBC News at Wednesday evening's announcement, which unveiled the short list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 8 11:57:36 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:57:36 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? References: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c53c53$af1f8dc0$6eaa3852@ANNY> Hi James, I just wrote this down and sent it to my blog - trying to remember the direct broadcast of the funeral at the auditorium this morning with my students, not really a Pope pOm, but since you asked, a Friday northern milky white with the harpist on the way to class - mad kids -hormones stress lack of concentration strong interactions- before the great show for an appeasing mental snow _per secula seculorum, Amen_ imposing status that keeps the world breathing difference to be found in disarrayed fringes, Baudelaire in time's void fresh echo when zigzagging through the sleep of the iron societal burden of gloom une ?tincelle - the smile of recognition & the load of fear when an ephemeral frame was all the structure left on which to start over again and over again, ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 5:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? Anyone have a good Pope (not Alexander, rather Karol Wojtyla) poem to post? John Paul II was a poet early in his life. (I could only think of Sharon Olds' naughty "The Pope's Penis." ) Early this morning, a priest named Fr. Frank Russo on CBS News coverage of the funeral read a nice poem by St. John of the Cross. Pope John Paul II apparently wrote his graduate thesis (I think he said) on the mystical poetry of St. John of Cross. I'll try to find that poem to post. Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 8 12:12:43 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:12:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? In-Reply-To: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> References: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050408111117.02d2e170@mail.ilstu.edu> Daniel Nester has a great one by James Tate on his blog at http://godsavemyqueen.com/blog.html Scroll down a few days or so. ...g At 10:44 AM 4/8/2005, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Anyone have a good Pope (not Alexander, rather Karol Wojtyla) poem >to post? John Paul II was a poet early in his life. > >(I could only think of Sharon Olds' naughty "The Pope's Penis." ) > >Early this morning, a priest named Fr. Frank Russo on CBS News coverage of >the funeral read a nice poem by St. John of the Cross. >Pope John Paul II apparently wrote his graduate thesis (I think >he said) on the mystical poetry of St. John of Cross. I'll try to find >that poem to post. >Finnegan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 8 12:13:35 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:13:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? In-Reply-To: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <4256756F.5140.931F06@localhost> On 8 Apr 2005 at 11:44, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Anyone have a good Pope (not Alexander, rather Karol Wojtyla) poem to > post?John Paul IIwas a poet early in his life. Found Poem: Spreading Democracy to the Vatican Perhaps our fearless leader, George W Bush, is in Rome a day early for the Pope's funeral to try to continue the spread of democracy to the Vatican. What an opportunity: all Roman Catholics should have the chance to vote for the next pope. But the best part is if the church refuses then its command and control operations are small and conveniently located. They could be easily overrun with only a small contingent of American troops. if a coalition of the willing can't be quickly assembled. Think of it as nationalizing the monasteries, but on a grander scale, to balance the budget and pay for the war. From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Apr 8 12:20:07 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:20:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm lucky, she says Message-ID: Spider Web There are stories that unwind themselves as simply as a ball of string. A man is on a plane between New York and Denver. He sees his life as moving along a straight line. Today here, tomorrow there. The destination is not so important as the progression itself. During lunch he talks to the woman seated beside him. She is from Baltimore, perhaps twenty years older. It turns out she has had two children killed by drunk drivers, two incidents fifteen years apart. At first I wanted to die every day, she says, now I only want to die now and then. Again and again, she tries to make her life move forward in a straight line but it keeps curving back to those two deaths, curves back like a fishhook stuck though her gut. I guess I'm lucky, she says, I have other children left. The man and woman discuss books, horses; they talk about different cities; but each conversation keeps returning to the fact of those deaths, as if each conversation were a fall from a roof and those two deaths were the ground itself-- a son and daughter, one five, one fourteen. The plane lands, they separate. The man goes off to his various meetings, but for several days whenever he's at dinner or sitting around in the evening, he says to whomever he is with, You know, I met the saddest woman on the plane. But he can't get it right, can't decide whether she is sad or brave or what, can't describe how the woman herself fought to keep the subject straight, keep it from bending back to the fact of the dead children, and then how she would collapse and weep, then curse herself and go at it again. After a week or so, the man completes his work and returns home. Once more he gathers up the threads of his life. It's spring. The man works in his garden, repairs all that is broken around his house. He thinks of how a spider makes its web; how the web is torn by people with brooms, insects, rapacious birds; how the spider rebuilds and rebuilds, until the wind takes the web and breaks it and flicks it into heaven's blue and innocent immensity. --Stephen Dobyns. *Cemetery Nights*. Penguin, 1987. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Fri Apr 8 12:23:22 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:23:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: A Personal Message from Dennis Kucinich Message-ID: Thought some of you might be interested in this. Go Dennis. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dennis Kucinich Subject: A Personal Message from Dennis Kucinich Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:30:33 -0400 Size: 7455 URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 8 12:40:20 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:40:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050408113237.02d1ae58@mail.ilstu.edu> Pope John Paul II on the Poetry of St John of the Cross A Radio Show in California Wakes Up to Insult POETRY Why I Would Take the _Pseudodoxica Epidemica_ to a Desert Island William James on Walt Whitman 6 Elegies for Robert Creeley's Eyeball rhode island notebook 6.17.03-6.20.03 Two Years Later: a Report About the Recent Anti-War Rally in Chicago, INCLUDING A SIGN READING, "For The Love of God, Won't Someone Cockslap Bush" http://www.gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Apr 8 12:47:45 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:47:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm lucky, she says References: Message-ID: <003e01c53c5a$b2df50b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Well, I know this isn't a workshop, but... I like the Dobyns poem a lot. I like the story, I like the characters, I like the nice balance between direct diction and poetic lineation. I wish it didn't end the way it does. It feels too facile for me...the kind of facileness that a very good poet can fall into...but still...facile. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 12:20 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm lucky, she says > Spider Web > > There are stories that unwind themselves as simply > as a ball of string. A man is on a plane between > New York and Denver. He sees his life > as moving along a straight line. Today here, > tomorrow there. The destination is not so > important as the progression itself. During lunch > he talks to the woman seated beside him. > She is from Baltimore, perhaps twenty years older. > It turns out she has had two children killed > by drunk drivers, two incidents fifteen > years apart. At first I wanted to die every day, > she says, now I only want to die now and then. > Again and again, she tries to make her life > move forward in a straight line but it keeps > curving back to those two deaths, curves back > like a fishhook stuck though her gut. I guess > I'm lucky, she says, I have other children left. > The man and woman discuss books, horses; they > talk about different cities; but each conversation > keeps returning to the fact of those deaths, > as if each conversation were a fall from a roof > and those two deaths were the ground itself-- > a son and daughter, one five, one fourteen. > The plane lands, they separate. The man goes off > to his various meetings, but for several days > whenever he's at dinner or sitting around > in the evening, he says to whomever he is with, > You know, I met the saddest woman on the plane. > But he can't get it right, can't decide whether > she is sad or brave or what, can't describe > how the woman herself fought to keep the subject > straight, keep it from bending back to the fact > of the dead children, and then how she would > collapse and weep, then curse herself and > go at it again. After a week or so, the man > completes his work and returns home. Once more > he gathers up the threads of his life. > It's spring. The man works in his garden, > repairs all that is broken around his house. > He thinks of how a spider makes its web; > how the web is torn by people with brooms, > insects, rapacious birds; how the spider > rebuilds and rebuilds, until the wind > takes the web and breaks it and flicks it > into heaven's blue and innocent immensity. > > --Stephen Dobyns. *Cemetery Nights*. Penguin, 1987. > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 8 12:46:59 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:46:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? In-Reply-To: <4256756F.5140.931F06@localhost> Message-ID: Pope in a box in a box in a box Hal Today's Special--Theory of Harmony www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 8 13:06:50 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:06:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Now on Conchology Blog Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050408120646.02748ed8@mail.ilstu.edu> i meant "pseudodoxia" ... Why I Would Take the _Pseudodoxica Epidemica_ to a Desert Island .... http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 8 13:15:36 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:15:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? In-Reply-To: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> References: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <4256BC38.1010003@ix.netcom.com> People Magazine's Pope When the U.S. and the 14 families Hired D'Aubuisson To murder Romero, The "people's Pope" ordered the clergy to Strip the bullets from the campesinos' bandoleros, And as the rich church finked on the FMLN, The peoples' pope shat in Sandino's sombrero. CP P.S. Yes, I know Sandino was Nicaraguan, not Salvadoran. JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Anyone have a good Pope (not Alexander, rather Karol Wojtyla) poem > to post? John Paul II was a poet early in his life. > > (I could only think of Sharon Olds' naughty "The Pope's Penis." ) > > Early this morning, a priest named Fr. Frank Russo on CBS News > coverage of the funeral read a nice poem by St. John of the Cross. > Pope John Paul II apparently wrote his graduate thesis (I think > he said) on the mystical poetry of St. John of Cross. I'll try to find > that poem to post. > Finnegan > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Fri Apr 8 13:30:20 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:30:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? References: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> <4256BC38.1010003@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <009201c53c60$a79f9e70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Were we asking for poems about the Pope, or by the Pope? I want six monsignors for pallbearers Six Gregorians to sing me a chant I want six pretty nuns on my hearse wagon You know they'll make a hell of a descant And now that you've heard my story They can lay me in that primordial ooze That we may or may not be descended from Tell 'em I died of those pontiff's blues Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alphaville" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? > to post? John Paul II was a poet early in his life.> > > > > People Magazine's Pope > > When the U.S. and the 14 families > Hired D'Aubuisson To murder Romero, > The "people's Pope" ordered the clergy to > Strip the bullets from the campesinos' bandoleros, > And as the rich church finked on the FMLN, > The peoples' pope shat in Sandino's sombrero. > > CP > P.S. Yes, I know Sandino was Nicaraguan, not Salvadoran. > > > > > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > >> Anyone have a good Pope (not Alexander, rather Karol Wojtyla) poem >> to post? John Paul II was a poet early in his life. >> (I could only think of Sharon Olds' naughty "The Pope's Penis." ) >> Early this morning, a priest named Fr. Frank Russo on CBS News coverage >> of the funeral read a nice poem by St. John of the Cross. >> Pope John Paul II apparently wrote his graduate thesis (I think >> he said) on the mystical poetry of St. John of Cross. I'll try to find >> that poem to post. >> Finnegan >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 8 13:38:56 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:38:56 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? References: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> <4256BC38.1010003@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <001101c53c61$d85a2d90$c6ad3452@ANNY> Ok, I got it - but I swear I didn't look for them, I was browsing around trying to pick up with my reading of my selected blogs, and BrTom http://www.brtom.org/tjblog.html links to John Paul II's pOms, copy and paste, here is the link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pope/poems/ Here is the transcript of two poems by Karol Wojtyla as they were read and discussed in FRONTLINE's interview with poet Lynn Powell. These poems were written by him when he was in his twenties. Read Ms. Powell's interpretive interview about these poems here. Over This, Your White Grave Over this, your white grave the flowers of life in white-- so many years without you-- how many have passed out of sight? Over this your white grave covered for years, there is a stir in the air, something uplifting and, like death, beyond comprehension. Over this your white grave oh, mother, can such loving cease? for all his filial adoration a prayer: Give her eternal peace-- [Krakow, spring 1939] The Quarry He wasn't alone. His muscles grew into the flesh of the crowd, energy their pulse, As long as they held a hammer, as long as his feet felt the ground. And a stone smashed his temples and cut through his heart's chamber. They took his body and walked in a silent line Toil still lingered about him, a sense of wrong. They wore gray blouses, boots ankle-deep in mud. In this, they showed the end. How violently his time halted: the pointers on the low voltage dials jerked, then dropped to zero again. White stone now within him, eating into his being,taking over enough of him to turn him into stone. Who will lift up that stone, unfurl his thoughts again under the cracked temples? So plaster cracks on the wall. They laid him down, his back on a sheet of gravel. His wife came, worn out with worry; his son returned from school Should his anger now flow into the anger of others? It was maturing in him through his own truth and love Should he be used by those who came after,deprived of substance, unique and deeply his own? The stones on the move again; a wagon bruising the flowers. Again the electric current cuts deep into the walls. But the man has taken with him the world's inner structure,where the greater the anger, the higher the explosion of love. The following poems by Karol Wojtyla were written while he was a parish priest and auxiliary bishop of Krakow. They first appeared in various Polish religious and philosophical journals under the pseudonym "Andrzej Jawien." Many years later they were collected and published in THE PLACE WITHIN - THE POETRY OF POPE JOHN PAUL II translation and notes copyright by Jerzy Peterkiewicz, Random House. Copyright 1979, 1982 by Liberia Editirice Vaticiana, Vatican City. John Beseeches Her Don't lower the wave of my heart, it swells to your eyes, mother; don't alter love, but bring the wave to me in your translucent hands. He asked for this. I am John the fisherman. There isn't much in me to love. I feel I am still on that lake shore, gravel crunching under my feet-- and, suddenly--Him. You will embrace his mystery in me no more, yet quietly I spread round your thoughts like myrtle. And calling you Mother--His wish-- I beseech you: may this word never grow less for you. True, it's not easy to measure the meaning of the words he breathed into us both so that all earlier love in those words should be concealed. I. Material 1 Listen: the even knocking of hammers, so much their own, I project on to the people to test the strength of each blow. Listen now: electric current cuts through a river of rock. And a thought grows in me day after day: the greatness of work is inside man. Hard and cracked his hand is differently charged by the hammer and thought differently unravels in stone as human energy splits from the strength of stone cutting the bloodstream, an artery in the right place. Look, how love feeds on this well-grounded anger which flows in to people's breath as a river bent by the wind, and which is never spoken, but just breaks high vocal cords. Passers-by scuttle off into doorways, someone whispers: "Yet here is a great force." Fear not. Man's daily deeds have a wide span, a strait riverbed can't imprison them long. Fear not. For centuries they all stand in Him, and you look at Him now through the even knocking of hammers. 2 Bound are the blocks of stone, the low-voltage wire cuts deep in their flesh, an invisible whip-- stones know this violence. When an elusive blast rips their ripe compactness and tears them from their eternal simplicity, the stones know this violence. Yet can the current unbind their full strength? It is he who carries that strength in his hands: the worker. 3 Hands are the heart's landscape. They split sometimes like ravines into which an undefined force rolls. The very same hands which man only opens when his palms have had their fill of toil. Now he sees: because of him alone others can walk in peace. Hands are a landscape. When they split, the pain of their sores surges free as a stream. But no thought of pain-- no grandeur in pain alone. For his own grandeur he does not know how to name. 4 No, not just hands drooping with the hammer's weight, not the taut torso, muscles shaping their own style, but thought informing his work, deep, knotted in wrinkles on his brow, and over his head, joined in a sharp arc, shoulders and veins vaulted. So for a moment he is a Gothic building cut by a vertical thought born in the eyes. No, not a profile alone, not a mere figure between God and the stone, sentenced to grandeur and error. Actor So many grew round me, through me, from my self, as it were. I became a channel, unleashing a force called man. Did not the others crowding in, distort the man that I am? Being each of them, always imperfect, myself to myself too near, he who survives in me, can he ever look at himself without fear? Girl Disappointed in Love With mercury we measure pain as we measure the heat of bodies and air; but this is not how to discover our limits-- you think you are the center of things. If you could only grasp that you are not: the center is He, and He, too, finds no love--- why don't you see? The human heart--what is it for? Cosmic temperature. Heart. Mercury. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 622 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 694 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 8 16:08:10 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:08:10 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] August Kleinzahler References: <13e.10c62d46.2f8800d0@aol.com> <4256BC38.1010003@ix.netcom.com> <009201c53c60$a79f9e70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001401c53c76$b03c0c60$f42ab750@ANNY> TWO POEMS by August Kleinzahler Goddess Well now, it really is you, and after how many months? I had ceased keeping track. No, not given up, never that. I should die if that were true. But still - was it some affront? You've never been this cruel. Distracted? To be sure; even you can't begrudge me this: a father, friend, another friend. Death's visits threatened never to end. I know better than to implore, complain, or like some schoolchild, wish. Unvisited I do not live, I endure. Portrait of My Mother in January Mother dozes in her chair, awakes a while and reads her book, then dozes off again. Wind makes a rush at the house and, like a tide, recedes. The trees are sear. Afternoons are the most difficult. They seem to have no end, no end and no one there. Outside the trees do their witchy dance. Mother grows smaller in her chair. from London Review of Books Vol. 27 # 6 - March 17, 2005 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Fri Apr 8 21:09:51 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let's all be really glib and american on the subject of the pope, shall we?? Let's ignore that Anny for the most part is Italian, and it might just possibly have a slightly different context for her. COuld it be there is something vaguely large afoot? SOmething extraordianry amidst all of the stupidity and politics of the Vatican. Like maybe MORE than, um, TWO dimensions??? Today I caught my utterly oppositional twelve year old son in a t-shirt of his own making that said, among other things, "Jesus hates you. Fuck religion." I made him take it off mid-bite of pizza, chastising him, as I dropped it into the wastebasket, for embarassingly simplistic thinking. Deja vu?? From Kazmandu at aol.com Fri Apr 8 23:37:18 2005 From: Kazmandu at aol.com (Kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:37:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" Message-ID: <12c.5b6ce455.2f88a7ee@aol.com> Here is what Geof Huth wrote: In October 1989, Bob sent me a printout of his ?Lexicon Grummaniacal,? which provides the pronunciation, derivation, and definition of words like ? vizlation,? ?alphaconceptual,? ?mnemoduct,? ?experioddica,? and ?scuther.? A few of these will be familiar to people familiar with otherstream literature, but the rest are, most likely, unknown. This list is now terribly out of date, and Bob has abandoned some of the terms. But the mere existence of the terms is what interests me. Bob invents these strange new words not out of fun, but out of a deep-seated need to achieve precision. The words he knows, those that we use every day, are useful enough, but they never quite achieve the accuracy that Bob craves. He makes these words to reinvent the way we talk about poetry, to reinvent the entire discourse of literary criticism. But let?s look at the term here that is the least familiar to me: ?scuther,? which means ?to disturb a person with too great a complexity of input for him to handle.? He goes on to explain that ?the resulting state . . . is often mistaken for boredom, but the latter results from a person?s being superior to what is causing the state while the former results from his being inferior to it.? I can imagine someone inventing the word ?scuther,? but I am surprised by the emendation, the clarification. Who else would see the possible confusion here? Who else could tell the scuthered from the bored? In a message dated 4/6/2005 9:09:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes: From: "Marcus Bales" Subject: [New-Poetry] To: "Bob Grumman" , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <425398AC.19341.2A9936 at localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 5 Apr 2005 at 21:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anyone who cares to know what it means can find out by going to my > website, http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica, and reading the > description of my taxonomy--as Marcus, an expert on my worthlessness > as a taxonomist, seems never to have done. Not only have I read it, I've critiqued it at length and in detail in emails back and forth with you in this forum, Bob. You're calling a list of "schools of poetry" relabeled with your neologisms "a taxonomy", which is a misnomer because there is no underlying science, even though you insist on using scientific terminology. Instead of offering a theory to explain class, order, family, genus, species and how they necessarily relate to one another, you simply re- name the schools of poetry you find. But the central problem, Bob, with a "taxonomy of poetry" is that you're claiming scientific authority for your own mere opinion. You're trying to steal the cultural critical authority of science by using scientific terms in an false way. Your neologisms pretend to an authority they cannot have because poetry is a volitional human activity, not a set of necessarily related and non-volitional characteristics. The irony of your position is that you seek in your taxonomy to categorize all possible poetries while vociferously maintaining that the only thing that is really valuable in art is what is "new" -- but of course, if you could be successful in categorizing all possible poetries in a taxonomy then there could be nothing new! And if there were something new then your taxonomy would be a failure! We've been all through this, Bob: you've tried out holding that your taxonomy is really science, and have been shown to be wrong about that. Your taxonomy is at best a sort of metaphor, just a way to try to steal scientific authority for your mere opinions by using scientific terminology in inappropriate ways to bolster your opinion and make it seem more significant than it is. It's a bad job, Bob -- and no number of years spent on it makes it any better, no more than hours spent with mud and water will transform those materials into an edible pie. Your understanding of what science is and what its goals and purposes are have been completely revealed to be wrong only a few days ago. You don't know what you're talking about. You have it almost all wrong. You're using adult words in a childish way, as if knowing the words without really understanding their meanings gives you the authority to speak decisively. The whole notion of using scientific methodology to examine art is specious, Bob, because what science is good at is investigating necessarily related non-volitional characteristics, and you haven't identified a single such thing in the world of poetry -- and you won't, either, because poetry is a volitional human activity that doesn't have necessarily related non- volitional characteristics. You're just playing with words inappropriately, Bob. Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 9 06:51:54 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:51:54 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? References: Message-ID: <001d01c53cf2$25dbc840$ec8e3052@ANNY> Hi Kerry, since you mention me, here I am -Quando parli del diavolo arriva la coda [When you speak of the devil (his/her?) tail arrives] I think your reaction with your child is more like, _you do not have to curse, you'll have to learn good manners_ quite common in our western world. Italy has the Vatican and it is heavy to live here, a fact I never hid to anybody. What sort of impressed me was that I thought that a bomb might explode while the funeral was taking place, but then I had my answer: "They're all there, how could they send a self-destroying bomb?" Another consideration: Big business for Rome in these days. I agree there are more than 2 dimensions, there are plenty as a matter of fact. And they go from spiritual to religious (and Gabe sort of connected them to previous religious texts, well known to many of them) to philosophy, even to poetry as we have seen, to economics, to politics - not to speak of art - I was most impressed when for the first time I visited the Vatican some years ago; also the Nazis where imbued by a quantity of hues, classical music for example, was highly revered. That is how Power works. Take care, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerry O'Keefe" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 3:09 AM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? > Let's all be really glib and american on the subject of the > pope, shall we?? Let's ignore that Anny for the most part is Italian, and > it might just possibly have a slightly different context for her. COuld > it be there is something vaguely large afoot? SOmething extraordianry > amidst all of the stupidity and politics of the Vatican. Like maybe MORE > than, um, TWO dimensions??? Today I caught my utterly > oppositional twelve year old son in a t-shirt of his own making that said, > among other things, "Jesus hates you. Fuck religion." I made him take it > off mid-bite of pizza, chastising him, as I dropped it into the > wastebasket, for embarassingly simplistic thinking. > > Deja vu?? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 09:02:17 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:02:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Taxonomy References: <424AD979.4815.1723440@localhost><01f501c53578$6be95a90$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><13413510.1112222859140.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><020501c5357c$00639430$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><005101c53580$d0c42a50$c4309b51@Robin><021401c53589$73169a60$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004b01c53592$fd02e590$c4309b51@Robin> <024701c53597$5c49ee50$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005301c53d04$5c034990$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the defense, Kaz. I hope not to many at New-Poetry were scuthered by it. One minor correction of what Geof said: I DO have fun making up words--but that's not why I make them up. Professor Bob ******** Here is what Geof Huth wrote: In October 1989, Bob sent me a printout of his Lexicon Grummaniacal, which provides the pronunciation, derivation, and definition of words like vizlation, alphaconceptual, mnemoduct, experioddica, and scuther. A few of these will be familiar to people familiar with otherstream literature, but the rest are, most likely, unknown. This list is now terribly out of date, and Bob has abandoned some of the terms. But the mere existence of the terms is what interests me. Bob invents these strange new words not out of fun, but out of a deep-seated need to achieve precision. The words he knows, those that we use every day, are useful enough, but they never quite achieve the accuracy that Bob craves. He makes these words to reinvent the way we talk about poetry, to reinvent the entire discourse of literary criticism. But lets look at the term here that is the least familiar to me: scuther, which means to disturb a person with too great a complexity of in put for him to handle. He goes on to explain that the resulting state . . . is often mistaken for boredom, but the latter results from a person being superior to what is causing the state while the former results from his being inferior to it. I can imagine someone inventing the word scuther, but I am surprised by the emendation, the clarification. Who else would see the possible confusion here? Who else could tell the scuthered from the bored? From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 9 11:50:14 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 11:50:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <12c.5b6ce455.2f88a7ee@aol.com> Message-ID: <4257C176.8762.795814@localhost> On 8 Apr 2005 at 23:37, Kazmandu at aol.com wrote: > Here is whatGeof Huth wrote: > In October 1989, Bob sent me a printout of his Lexicon > Grummaniacal, which provides the pronunciation, derivation, and > definition of words like vizlation, alphaconceptual, mnemoduct, xperioddica, < and scuther. A few of these > will be familiar to people familiar with otherstream literature, but > the rest are, most likely, unknown. This list is now terribly out of > date, and Bob has abandoned some of the terms. But the mere existence > of the terms is what interests me. Bob invents these strange new words > not out of fun, but out of a deep-seated need to achieve precision. > The words he knows, those that we use every day, are useful enough, > but they never quite achieve the accuracy that Bob craves. He makes > these words to reinvent the way we talk about poetry, to reinvent the > entire discourse of literary criticism. > But let's look at the term here that is the least familiar to me: > scuther, which means "to disturb a person with too great a > complexity of input for him to handle". He goes on to explain that > "the resulting state . . . is often mistaken for boredom, but the > latter results from a person's being superior to what is causing the > state while the former results from his being inferior to it." I can > imagine someone inventing the word scuther, but I am surprised > by the emendation, the clarification. Who else would see the possible > confusion here? Who else could tell the scuthered from the bored? Yes, Grumman is forever inventing new words where there are perfectly acceptable existing words. How hard is it, after all, to tell the flummoxed from the bored, the confused from the bored, the overwhelmed from the bored, and the like? Do we really need scuthered? If we do, how much more useful a word it would be if it distinguished the scuthered from the flummoxed or confused or overwhelmed, or, even more usefully, the flummoxed from the confused from the overwhelmed. Oddly enough, though, we can already tell the flummoxed from the confused from the overwhelmed, and to tell them from the bored is certainly neither difficult nor new. I admire Grumman for trying, especially for "aesthipient", which I think has a good chance of becoming more widely used because it sounds like solid academic jargon -- the kind of thing that anyone familiar with the way language works can work out the nominal meaning of and feel like something of an insider. But that's all that that word offers. Rather than to use the resources of the language creatively to communicate, Grumman is trying to narrow down the number of words appropriate to any given context. On the face of it one might expect that it is a reasonable thing to attempt, to try to sharpen meanings down into words that mean only one thing. But that approach sucks all the juice out of language use - - it denies metaphor, analogy, and word-play. It is the crie de coeur of the fundamentalist, demanding the literal reading, the literal meaning, and only that reading and meaning, for each word. That approach is not just unpoetic, it's anti-poetic. Instead of the interestingly expansive use of an existing word, Grumman provides a made-up word that means one and only one thing. Instead of the metaphorical use of hearing in the word audience, with its echoes in critiquing (audit), Grumman wants us to use "aesthipient", which, aside from its awkward pronunciation out loud that makes the user sound as if they could not quite get their name-calling out through their lisp, is pretty clever, but just not clever enough. Combining "aesthetic" and "percipient" (or perhaps "recipient"), it seems to offer something that, in the end, it just doesn't provide. We've lost the overtones of judgment implicit in "audit" within "audience". The aesthipient is passive; the audience is active -- and active through the way language works syntactically, grammatically, connotatively; it is not limited, as Grumman would seem to have it, to mere denotation. What this sort of thing has to do with Grumman is pleased to call his taxonomy is instructive. Grumman's approach to taxonomy seems very much like his approach to neologisms: he's inventing what's not needed, and often go beyond "not needed" well into comically superfluous. Accuracy in language is only part of the point -- communication is the real deal. Language functions as it does, allowing not only that there are many ways to say something but many ways to understand what is said, to try to ensure, through that structural systemic fact of the possibility of multiple messages, that communication is likely (though of course not certain) to happen. The way language works is messy, and what art does is try or organize the messiness to get things across in a pleasing and memorable way. What Grumman wants to do is eliminate the mess, or at least reduce it to proportions manageable by denotation. What Grumman is doing with both his neologisms and his taxonomy is trying to make denotation do all the work. He doesn't want his categories fuzzy -- he wants them crisp, clear, and demarcated by bright lines. Unfortunately for his view, language users interpret attempts to tell them how to use the language as noise, not signal, and work around those attempts -- unless they're pretty spectacular. Grumman's neologisms suffer from not being Lewis Carroll's -- and by no means all of Carroll's are in common use. I hope Grumman keeps on neologizing, annoying as it is to have the not-quite-right rasp across my aesthipience. Marcus > From: "Marcus Bales" > Subject: [New-Poetry] > To: "Bob Grumman" , "NewPoetry: > Contemporary > Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <425398AC.19341.2A9936 at localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 5 Apr 2005 at 21:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Anyone who cares to know what it means can find out by going to > my > website, http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica, and reading > the > description of my taxonomy--as Marcus, an expert on my > worthlessness > as a taxonomist, seems never to have done. > > Not only have I read it, I've critiqued it at length and in detail > in emails back and forth with you in this forum, Bob. You're > calling a list of "schools of poetry" relabeled with your > neologisms "a taxonomy", which is a misnomer because there is no > underlying science, even though you insist on using scientific > terminology. Instead of offering a theory to explain class, order, > family, genus, species and how they necessarily relate to one > another, you simply re- name the schools of poetry you find. > > But the central problem, Bob, with a "taxonomy of poetry" is that > you're claiming scientific authority for your own mere opinion. > You're trying to steal the cultural critical authority of science > by using scientific terms in an false way. Your neologisms pretend > to an authority they cannot have because poetry is a volitional > human activity, not a set of necessarily related and > non-volitional characteristics. > > The irony of your position is that you seek in your taxonomy to > categorize all possible poetries while vociferously maintaining > that the only thing that is really valuable in art is what is > "new" -- but of course, if you could be successful in categorizing > all possible poetries in a taxonomy then there could be nothing > new! And if there were something new then your taxonomy would be a > failure! > > We've been all through this, Bob: you've tried out holding that > your taxonomy is really science, and have been shown to be wrong > about that. Your taxonomy is at best a sort of metaphor, just a > way to try to steal scientific authority for your mere opinions by > using scientific terminology in inappropriate ways to bolster your > opinion and make it seem more significant than it is. > > It's a bad job, Bob -- and no number of years spent on it makes it > any better, no more than hours spent with mud and water will > transform those materials into an edible pie. > > Your understanding of what science is and what its goals and > purposes are have been completely revealed to be wrong only a few > days ago. You don't know what you're talking about. You have it > almost all wrong. You're using adult words in a childish way, as > if knowing the words without really understanding their meanings > gives you the authority to speak decisively. The whole notion of > using scientific methodology to examine art is specious, Bob, > because what science is good at is investigating necessarily > related non-volitional characteristics, and you haven't identified > a single such thing in the world of poetry -- and you won't, > either, because poetry is a volitional human activity that doesn't > have necessarily related non- volitional characteristics. You're > just playing with words inappropriately, Bob. > > Marcus > > > From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Apr 9 12:43:39 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 09:43:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Message to the Bob-List In-Reply-To: <200504091542.j39FfM0s025118@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050409090847.02480d88@incoming.verizon.net> >Marcus, bless him, wrote: > >I hope Grumman keeps on neologizing The Aunty Bob Himself, for about the 17th time, hopes to call attention to the pith-gist of the Bob-question to which this Bob-list is dedicated, viz: the value-laden nature of Bob's neologizms (misspelling intended). I'll cheer Bob on (as Marcus does by legitimizing the man's self-salesmanship-via- vilification-of-others) once he stops pitching his own stuff while besmirching the competition with spinner's "names" and snide rejections. How about declaring the Bob-blurts-school, given its transparent effort to kill poetry along with its ever-hopeful readers, something like "Incomprehensible Self-Seeking Mind-Numbing Schlock"? Showing an honest, to-the-point humility of this sort would win over even the Aunty-Bob by purifying the purposes of the Bob-List. In one word: if you must Tax, Bob, "level-the-playing-field"! Barry (of the "Every True Poem Is a Unique Invention and Oh So Absolutely New" School) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 12:43:07 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:43:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" References: <4257C176.8762.795814@localhost> Message-ID: <006a01c53d23$c5310140$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> James, forgive me, but Marcus has made what I would call a reasonable albeit negative response to what I've done as a neologist, so I can't help replying.>> Here is whatGeof Huth wrote: >> In October 1989, Bob sent me a printout of his Lexicon >> Grummaniacal, which provides the pronunciation, derivation, and >> definition of words like vizlation, alphaconceptual, mnemoduct, >> xperioddica, > < and scuther. A few of these >> will be familiar to people familiar with otherstream literature, but >> the rest are, most likely, unknown. This list is now terribly out of >> date, and Bob has abandoned some of the terms. But the mere existence >> of the terms is what interests me. Bob invents these strange new words >> not out of fun, but out of a deep-seated need to achieve precision. >> The words he knows, those that we use every day, are useful enough, >> but they never quite achieve the accuracy that Bob craves. Geof, I'm sure, means that they never achieve the total accuracy that I'd love for them to achieve. They DO achieve sufficient accuracy in most cases to satisfy me. >>He makes >> these words to reinvent the way we talk about poetry, to reinvent the >> entire discourse of literary criticism. >> But let's look at the term here that is the least familiar to me: >> scuther, which means "to disturb a person with too great a >> complexity of input for him to handle". He goes on to explain that >> "the resulting state . . . is often mistaken for boredom, but the >> latter results from a person's being superior to what is causing the >> state while the former results from his being inferior to it." I can >> imagine someone inventing the word scuther, but I am surprised >> by the emendation, the clarification. Who else would see the possible >> confusion here? Who else could tell the scuthered from the bored? > > Yes, Grumman is forever inventing new words where there are perfectly > acceptable existing words. How hard is it, after all, to tell the > flummoxed from the bored, the confused from the bored, the > overwhelmed from the bored, and the like? Do we really need > scuthered? If we do, how much more useful a word it would be if it > distinguished the scuthered from the flummoxed or confused or > overwhelmed, or, even more usefully, the flummoxed from the confused > from the overwhelmed. Oddly enough, though, we can already tell the > flummoxed from the confused from the overwhelmed, and to tell them > from the bored is certainly neither difficult nor new. "Scuthered" does not mean "flummoxed," "confused" or "overwhelmed." It means, "bored by something which one is incompetent to grasp." A scuthered person does not feel confused or flummoxed or overwhelmed. > I admire Grumman for trying, especially for "aesthipient", which I > think has a good chance of becoming more widely used because it > sounds like solid academic jargon -- the kind of thing that anyone > familiar with the way language works can work out the nominal meaning Thanks, but the word is "aesthcipient," and I have since changed it to "aestheriencer" because the latter is easier to pronounce, and connects to such associated words as "aestherience." > of and feel like something of an insider. But that's all that that > word offers. Rather than to use the resources of the language > creatively to communicate, Grumman is trying to narrow down the > number of words appropriate to any given context. Okay, Marcus. If "aestheriencer" or "aesthcipient," by whatever spelling, is superfluous, there has to be a word that means what it does. Tell us what that word is, if you will. It has to mean "experiencer of a work of art." I use my term because, to begin with, "reader" doesn't really work as a description of someone experience a visual poem. The closest term I've seen used that means what I mean by "aestheriencer" is "auditor," but that strikes me wrong connotatively since one often will experience an artwork without judging it. > On the face of it one might expect that it is a reasonable thing to > attempt, to try to sharpen meanings down into words that mean only > one thing. But that approach sucks all the juice out of language use - > - it denies metaphor, analogy, and word-play. It is the crie de coeur > of the fundamentalist, demanding the literal reading, the literal > meaning, and only that reading and meaning, for each word. That > approach is not just unpoetic, it's anti-poetic. Instead of the > interestingly expansive use of an existing word, Grumman provides a > made-up word that means one and only one thing. Instead of the > metaphorical use of hearing in the word audience, And what do we call a member of an audience--in a single word? And what about a person solitarily taking in a painting becing called a member of an audience? >with its echoes in > critiquing (audit), Grumman wants us to use "aesthipient", which, > aside from its awkward pronunciation out loud that makes the user > sound as if they could not quite get their name-calling out through > their lisp, is pretty clever, but just not clever enough. Combining > "aesthetic" and "percipient" (or perhaps "recipient"), The latter. > it seems to > offer something that, in the end, it just doesn't provide. We've lost > the overtones of judgment implicit in "audit" within "audience". There are no overtones of judgement for the normal reader in "audience," and I don't want there to be in my term. >The aesthipient is passive; An aestheriencer or aesthcipient is not necessarily passive. He is a partaker. >the audience is active -- and active through > the way language works syntactically, grammatically, connotatively; > it is not limited, as Grumman would seem to have it, to mere > denotation. In analytical criticism, we should want denotation, I believe. Connotation should be saved for poetry, and--possibly--poetry appreciation. > What this sort of thing has to do with Grumman is pleased to call his > taxonomy is instructive. Grumman's approach to taxonomy seems very > much like his approach to neologisms: he's inventing what's not > needed, and often go beyond "not needed" well into comically > superfluous. Accuracy in language is only part of the point -- > communication is the real deal. Language functions as it does, > allowing not only that there are many ways to say something but many > ways to understand what is said, to try to ensure, through that > structural systemic fact of the possibility of multiple messages, > that communication is likely (though of course not certain) to > happen. > > The way language works is messy, and what art does is try or organize > the messiness to get things across in a pleasing and memorable way. > What Grumman wants to do is eliminate the mess, or at least reduce it > to proportions manageable by denotation. What Grumman is doing with > both his neologisms and his taxonomy is trying to make denotation do > all the work. He doesn't want his categories fuzzy -- he wants them > crisp, clear, and demarcated by bright lines. Unfortunately for his > view, language users interpret attempts to tell them how to use the > language as noise, not signal, and work around those attempts -- > unless they're pretty spectacular. Grumman's neologisms suffer from > not being Lewis Carroll's -- and by no means all of Carroll's are in > common use. > > I hope Grumman keeps on neologizing, annoying as it is to have the > not-quite-right rasp across my aesthipience. > > Marcus I will. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 13:03:41 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:03:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Message to the Bob-List References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050409090847.02480d88@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <009f01c53d26$15099bd0$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Marcus, bless him, wrote: I hope Grumman keeps on neologizing The Aunty Bob Himself, for about the 17th time, hopes to call attention to the pith-gist of the Bob-question to which this Bob-list is dedicated, viz: the value-laden nature of Bob's neologizms (misspelling intended). So, how is "aestheriencer" value-laden, Barry? And, a question I've asked before but got no answers to--given a need to distinguish traditional poetry from what I call "burst-norm poetry," what terms should we use? (And why can't you and others accept that I'm TRYING for terms that are neutral.) I use "live-norm" for conventional formal and free verse but don't like it because it has no zip. I'd truly be hugely grateful for something better that goes with "burstnorm"--or for a set of terms that go together. I don't like "avant-garde" or "experimental" or "alternative" and the like because burstnorm poetry is not necessarily any of these, it is just poetry that does not adhere to the norms conventional poetry does. This, I believe, will always be the case. Prose will always have its norms, conventional poetry will always conform, in the main, to prose norms, and burstnorm poetry will not. I'll cheer Bob on (as Marcus does by legitimizing the man's self-salesmanship-via- vilification-of-others) once he stops pitching his own stuff while besmirching the competition with spinner's "names" and snide rejections. How about declaring the Bob-blurts-school, given its transparent effort to kill poetry along with its ever-hopeful readers, something like "Incomprehensible Self-Seeking Mind-Numbing Schlock"? Showing an honest, to-the-point humility of this sort would win over even the Aunty-Bob by purifying the purposes of the Bob-List. In one word: if you must Tax, Bob, "level-the-playing-field"! Barry (of the "Every True Poem Is a Unique Invention and Oh So Absolutely New" School) So you don't think one poem can be more inventive than another? Really, Barry? But burstnorm poetry is not necessarily inventive, it is just much more likely to be, nowadays, than conventional poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 9 14:10:19 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 14:10:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <006a01c53d23$c5310140$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4257E24B.25352.F99674@localhost> > "Scuthered" does not mean "flummoxed," "confused" or "overwhelmed." > It means, "bored by something which one is incompetent to grasp." A > scuthered person does not feel confused or flummoxed or overwhelmed. Well, then Huth had it wrong: your term doesn't propose to tell the scuthered from the bored, but one kind of bored from another. But that aside, I'm not sure that there is such a reaction as "bored by something one is incompetent to grasp". One might be incomprehending, or overwhelmed, but one can only be bored, I think, by things that one understands only too well, or by things that one is only too familiar with. The notion of someone being bored by something he or she cannot comprehend is like the notion of the infield fly rule being greener than a pig. You can construct the sentence, but it doesn't mean anything. What's the use of a word for something that doesn't exist? > ... If "aestheriencer" or "aesthcipient," by whatever > spelling, is superfluous, there has to be a word that means what it > does.< No, there doesn't. There's still no word in English for "Weltanshauung" or "Weltschmerz" or "Schadenfreude", and that's just German and just off the top of my head. There are lots of things that have no words in English; there are lots of things in other languages that have meanings that the equivalent English word doesn't have; there are lots of words in English that have very different meanings invested in them by how they're used in context, and even by how they're inflected when they're pronounced. You can say the word "sorry", for example, in an incredible variety of ways, to indicate everything from grief to fuck you. Now, no doubt, that I've brought it to your attention, you'll go about listening to people saying "sorry" in various contexts and inventing words to replace "sorry" in those contexts, everything from, respectively, "sincerorry" to "ragerorry" or something like that, eh? > Tell us what that word is, if you will. It has to mean > "experiencer of a work of art." < I don't see what's wrong with "audience" -- an audience can be one or many. > I use my term because, to begin with, > "reader" doesn't really work as a description of someone experience a > visual poem. The closest term I've seen used that means what I mean > by "aestheriencer" is "auditor," but that strikes me wrong > connotatively since one often will experience an artwork without > judging it.< I doubt very much that anyone can experience anything without judging it, much less a piece of art. Human beings are judgers, and judgment is a valuable thing to have and to employ. The notion that one might want to approach a work of art without judgment seems like the kind of handicap a batter without a bat would have facing a baseball pitcher. > And what do we call a member of an audience--in a single word? An audience. > And > what about a person solitarily taking in a painting becing called a > member of an audience? An audience. Part of the usefulness of that word is that it is plural or singular as needed, and even when singular places the single audience in the contextual presence of the larger audience. > > ... Combining > > "aesthetic" and "percipient" (or perhaps "recipient"),... > > The latter. How much more unfortunately passive instead of active. What's the point of passivity in the face of art? > > it seems to > > offer something that, in the end, it just doesn't provide. We've > > lost the overtones of judgment implicit in "audit" within > > "audience". > > There are no overtones of judgement for the normal reader in > "audience," and I don't want there to be in my term. Too bad for your term, then, in my view. As I said above, the notion that anyone would approach a piece of art without judgment seems like approaching a wrinkled dress shirt without an iron. > An aestheriencer or aesthcipient is not necessarily passive. He is a > partaker.< If he or she partakes he or she cannot help but judge; if they do not judge they cannot reasonably be said to have partaken. > >the audience is active -- and active through > > the way language works syntactically, grammatically, connotatively; > > it is not limited, as Grumman would seem to have it, to mere > > denotation. > In analytical criticism, we should want denotation, I believe. > Connotation should be saved for poetry, and--possibly--poetry > appreciation. This is just wrong on the face of it, in my view. The art one proposes to judge through analytical criticism (and imagine "analytical criticism" without judgment! -- your own terminology here betrays that your aestheriencer must be judging by employing "analtyical criticism") is the product of grammar, syntax, denotation, connotation, context, and inflextion, implicit and explicit. To attempt the merely denotative judgment on such a complexity of implications and connotations is to admit failure before beginning. Marcus From tad at opus40.org Sat Apr 9 14:45:41 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:45:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" References: <4257E24B.25352.F99674@localhost> Message-ID: <002a01c53d34$59318b20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I hate to take Bob's side on anything, but I do believe one can be bored by something one is incompetent to grasp One may be overwhelmed, but one experiences it as boredom. I don't see how "scuthered" captures that at all, however. I remember commenting on Bob's taxonomy once that it was as though one proclaimed one self a taxonomic expert on cars, and started out by putting "all American cars": in one category, and then discussing different years and models of Volkswagens. Bob's response was that he thought that was exactly how cars should be taxonomized. My thought was yeah, you could take that position, but you're not going to be taken very seriously by anyone with an interest in cars. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: ; "Bob Grumman" Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" >> "Scuthered" does not mean "flummoxed," "confused" or "overwhelmed." >> It means, "bored by something which one is incompetent to grasp." A >> scuthered person does not feel confused or flummoxed or overwhelmed. > > Well, then Huth had it wrong: your term doesn't propose to tell the > scuthered from the bored, but one kind of bored from another. > > But that aside, I'm not sure that there is such a reaction as "bored > by something one is incompetent to grasp". One might be > incomprehending, or overwhelmed, but one can only be bored, I think, > by things that one understands only too well, or by things that one > is only too familiar with. The notion of someone being bored by > something he or she cannot comprehend is like the notion of the > infield fly rule being greener than a pig. You can construct the > sentence, but it doesn't mean anything. What's the use of a word for > something that doesn't exist? > >> ... If "aestheriencer" or "aesthcipient," by whatever >> spelling, is superfluous, there has to be a word that means what it >> does.< > > No, there doesn't. There's still no word in English for > "Weltanshauung" or "Weltschmerz" or "Schadenfreude", and that's just > German and just off the top of my head. There are lots of things that > have no words in English; there are lots of things in other languages > that have meanings that the equivalent English word doesn't have; > there are lots of words in English that have very different meanings > invested in them by how they're used in context, and even by how > they're inflected when they're pronounced. You can say the word > "sorry", for example, in an incredible variety of ways, to indicate > everything from grief to fuck you. > > Now, no doubt, that I've brought it to your attention, you'll go > about listening to people saying "sorry" in various contexts and > inventing words to replace "sorry" in those contexts, everything > from, respectively, "sincerorry" to "ragerorry" or something like > that, eh? > >> Tell us what that word is, if you will. It has to mean >> "experiencer of a work of art." < > > I don't see what's wrong with "audience" -- an audience can be one or > many. > >> I use my term because, to begin with, >> "reader" doesn't really work as a description of someone experience a >> visual poem. The closest term I've seen used that means what I mean >> by "aestheriencer" is "auditor," but that strikes me wrong >> connotatively since one often will experience an artwork without >> judging it.< > > I doubt very much that anyone can experience anything without judging > it, much less a piece of art. Human beings are judgers, and judgment > is a valuable thing to have and to employ. The notion that one might > want to approach a work of art without judgment seems like the kind > of handicap a batter without a bat would have facing a baseball > pitcher. > >> And what do we call a member of an audience--in a single word? > > An audience. > >> And >> what about a person solitarily taking in a painting becing called a >> member of an audience? > > An audience. > > Part of the usefulness of that word is that it is plural or singular > as needed, and even when singular places the single audience in the > contextual presence of the larger audience. > >> > ... Combining >> > "aesthetic" and "percipient" (or perhaps "recipient"),... >> >> The latter. > > How much more unfortunately passive instead of active. What's the > point of passivity in the face of art? > >> > it seems to >> > offer something that, in the end, it just doesn't provide. We've >> > lost the overtones of judgment implicit in "audit" within >> > "audience". >> >> There are no overtones of judgement for the normal reader in >> "audience," and I don't want there to be in my term. > > Too bad for your term, then, in my view. As I said above, the notion > that anyone would approach a piece of art without judgment seems like > approaching a wrinkled dress shirt without an iron. > >> An aestheriencer or aesthcipient is not necessarily passive. He is a >> partaker.< > > If he or she partakes he or she cannot help but judge; if they do not > judge they cannot reasonably be said to have partaken. > >> >the audience is active -- and active through >> > the way language works syntactically, grammatically, connotatively; >> > it is not limited, as Grumman would seem to have it, to mere >> > denotation. > >> In analytical criticism, we should want denotation, I believe. >> Connotation should be saved for poetry, and--possibly--poetry >> appreciation. > > This is just wrong on the face of it, in my view. The art one > proposes to judge through analytical criticism (and imagine > "analytical criticism" without judgment! -- your own terminology here > betrays that your aestheriencer must be judging by employing > "analtyical criticism") is the product of grammar, syntax, > denotation, connotation, context, and inflextion, implicit and > explicit. To attempt the merely denotative judgment on such a > complexity of implications and connotations is to admit failure > before beginning. > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 15:04:17 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:04:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" References: <4257E24B.25352.F99674@localhost> <002a01c53d34$59318b20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00e401c53d36$ee244590$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I hate to take Bob's side on anything, but I do believe one can be bored > by something one is incompetent to grasp One may be overwhelmed, but one > experiences it as boredom. > I don't see how "scuthered" captures that at all, however. Of course, it doesn't. It's a new word, Mole. > I remember commenting on Bob's taxonomy once that it was as though one > proclaimed one self a taxonomic expert on cars, and started out by putting > "all American cars": in one category, and then discussing different years > and models of Volkswagens. Bob's response was that he thought that was > exactly how cars should be taxonomized. My thought was yeah, you could > take that position, but you're not going to be taken very seriously by > anyone with an interest in cars. > Tad Richards I flat out never said anything of the kind. I did say that Volkswagens could reasonably be considered one category, and standard American cars of the time that VWs became popular another. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 9 15:28:28 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:28:28 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" References: <4257E24B.25352.F99674@localhost><002a01c53d34$59318b20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <00e401c53d36$ee244590$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002601c53d3a$4e9ac310$55ad3452@ANNY> Let's continue the Bob Grumman show then, :-) if you want to see him click on Geof Huth's Blog: http://dbqp.blogspot.com/ and scroll down to Monday April 4, he is the last on your right! Take care, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 15:33:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 15:33:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" References: <4257E24B.25352.F99674@localhost> Message-ID: <00e901c53d3b$00a07e10$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> "Scuthered" does not mean "flummoxed," "confused" or "overwhelmed." >> It means, "bored by something which one is incompetent to grasp." A >> scuthered person does not feel confused or flummoxed or overwhelmed. > > Well, then Huth had it wrong: your term doesn't propose to tell the > scuthered from the bored, but one kind of bored from another. Sorry, but once again I gave an off-hand informal definition of one of my terms. Here's what "scuthered" means to me, now that I've thought it through: the way a person feels when experiencing the symptoms of boredom due to stimuli too complex for him to grasp as opposed to experiencing actual boredom due to stimuli too simple for him too enjoy. Such a person will describe his state as boredom, but he will be incorrect. It happens ALL THE TIME. All the people whom math bores, for instance. All the people who consider Shakespeare "boring." All the people who consider serious poetry, even your kind, boring. All the poeple who claim the most exciting board game of all time, chess, is boring. All the many people who watch some sport they nothing about and claim to be bored--and call soccer, for instance, just a bunch of people running around kicking a ball. Etc. My theory of psychology explains it but I don't have time to get into it in any kind of detail. To simplify, I believe the scuthered person simply does not perceive all the details of a scuthering stimulus, so actually is bored in the sense that he perceives only a few simple details. The latter bore him while the details he misses numb him. It's the combination of rejected excessively complex stimuli and excessively predictable stimuli that result in scutherdom. This state differs from boredom in that boredom results from excessively predictable stimuli only: no excessively complex stimuli are rejected. Excessively complex stimuli result in confusion, a feeling of being overwhelmed, etc. > But that aside, I'm not sure that there is such a reaction as "bored > by something one is incompetent to grasp". One might be > incomprehending, or overwhelmed, but one can only be bored, I think, > by things that one understands only too well, or by things that one > is only too familiar with. The notion of someone being bored by > something he or she cannot comprehend is like the notion of the > infield fly rule being greener than a pig. You can construct the > sentence, but it doesn't mean anything. What's the use of a word for > something that doesn't exist? > >> ... If "aestheriencer" or "aesthcipient," by whatever >> spelling, is superfluous, there has to be a word that means what it >> does.< > > No, there doesn't. There's still no word in English for > "Weltanshauung" or "Weltschmerz" or "Schadenfreude", and that's just > German and just off the top of my head. There are lots of things that > have no words in English; there are lots of things in other languages > that have meanings that the equivalent English word doesn't have; > there are lots of words in English that have very different meanings > invested in them by how they're used in context, and even by how > they're inflected when they're pronounced. You can say the word > "sorry", for example, in an incredible variety of ways, to indicate > everything from grief to fuck you. Okay. You're not criticizing my word for doing what some other words already does. You just think it is not needed. I do, so will use it. > Now, no doubt, that I've brought it to your attention, you'll go > about listening to people saying "sorry" in various contexts and > inventing words to replace "sorry" in those contexts, everything > from, respectively, "sincerorry" to "ragerorry" or something like > that, eh? > >> Tell us what that word is, if you will. It has to mean >> "experiencer of a work of art." < > I don't see what's wrong with "audience" -- an audience can be one or > many. What if you want to refer to one member of an audience? One audience member of this poem of mine said he liked the circle about the word, "xhdoug?" >> I use my term because, to begin with, >> "reader" doesn't really work as a description of someone experience a >> visual poem. The closest term I've seen used that means what I mean >> by "aestheriencer" is "auditor," but that strikes me wrong >> connotatively since one often will experience an artwork without >> judging it.< > > I doubt very much that anyone can experience anything without judging > it, much less a piece of art. Human beings are judgers, and judgment > is a valuable thing to have and to employ. The notion that one might > want to approach a work of art without judgment seems like the kind > of handicap a batter without a bat would have facing a baseball > pitcher. There are degrees of judging things. Most people experience most art with very little judgement beyond yes/no. They don't "audit" what they aestherience. >> And what do we call a member of an audience--in a single word? > > An audience. > >> And >> what about a person solitarily taking in a painting being called a >> member of an audience? > > An audience. > > Part of the usefulness of that word is that it is plural or singular > as needed, and even when singular places the single audience in the > contextual presence of the larger audience. >> > ... Combining >> > "aesthetic" and "percipient" (or perhaps "recipient"),... >> >> The latter. > > How much more unfortunately passive instead of active. What's the > point of passivity in the face of art? >> > it seems to >> > offer something that, in the end, it just doesn't provide. We've >> > lost the overtones of judgment implicit in "audit" within >> > "audience". >> >> There are no overtones of judgement for the normal reader in >> "audience," and I don't want there to be in my term. > > Too bad for your term, then, in my view. As I said above, the notion > that anyone would approach a piece of art without judgment seems like > approaching a wrinkled dress shirt without an iron. What about approaching a dress that was not wrinkled or otherwise "flawed?" You most of judge it free of wrinkles rather than enjoy its color, texture, etc.? >> An aestheriencer or aesthcipient is not necessarily passive. He is a >> partaker.< > > If he or she partakes he or she cannot help but judge; if they do not > judge they cannot reasonably be said to have partaken. I wonder if anyone would agree with you on that. > >> >the audience is active -- and active through >> > the way language works syntactically, grammatically, connotatively; >> > it is not limited, as Grumman would seem to have it, to mere >> > denotation. > >> In analytical criticism, we should want denotation, I believe. >> Connotation should be saved for poetry, and--possibly--poetry >> appreciation. > > This is just wrong on the face of it, in my view. The art one > proposes to judge through analytical criticism (and imagine > "analytical criticism" without judgment! -- your own terminology here > betrays that your aestheriencer must be judging by employing > "analtyical criticism") is the product of grammar, syntax, Analytical criticism would say what's there. Evaluative criticism would say whether it was good that it was there or not. I will say no more on this topic with you, Marcus. --Bob G. > denotation, connotation, context, and inflextion, implicit and > explicit. To attempt the merely denotative judgment on such a > complexity of implications and connotations is to admit failure > before beginning. > > Marcus From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 9 16:17:48 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 16:17:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pope poem? Message-ID: <100.111f593b.2f89926c@aol.com> Wojtyla, Karol. Faith According to St. John of the Cross. Translated by Jordan Aumann. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1981. FYI: This was the Pope's dissertation. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 9 16:35:53 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 16:35:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" Message-ID: <154.4ec26562.2f8996a9@aol.com> Farewell, [Aristotelian] genera and species! How could they bring about 0anything. They are monsters. --Roger Bacon (1220-1292) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 17:21:07 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 17:21:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Andrew Motion's Poem for the Prince References: <154.4ec26562.2f8996a9@aol.com> Message-ID: <015101c53d4a$0bc6a850$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >From a posting of the indefatigable Tia Ballantine: As the NY Times notes, "after 33 star-crossed and often unhappy years, Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles finally married today." As Andrew Motion, poet laureate, writes, it was a glorious spring wedding (with a few explosive tendencies . . . .) : Spring Wedding I took your news outdoors, and strolled a while In silence on my square of garden-ground Where I could dim the roar of arguments, Ignore the scandal-flywheel whirring round, And hear instead the green fuse in the flower Ignite, the breeze stretch out a shadow-hand To ruffle blossom on its sticking points, The blackbirds sing, and singing take their stand. I took your news outdoors, and found the Spring Had honoured all its promises to start Disclosing how the principles of earth Can make a common purpose with the heart. The heart which slips and sidles like a stream Weighed down by winter-wreckage near its source - But given time, and come the clearing rain, Breaks loose to revel in its proper course. ----Andrew Motion I think it excellent. Standard subject, standard devices, but first-rate results. (No, this is not the first time I've praised a non-burstnorm poem here; how many of my foes can point to a single burstnorm poem they've ever praised, or even mentioned unsolicitedly?) --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 9 17:32:27 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 16:32:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <154.4ec26562.2f8996a9@aol.com> References: <154.4ec26562.2f8996a9@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050409162552.02665868@mail.ilstu.edu> Wm Blake wd have considered Grumman's confused linnaeanism Satanic. Benedetto Croce's great essay "The Criticism of Artistic and Literary Kinds" is an excellent example of a more recent attack on this kind of NEW DEATH. At 03:35 PM 4/9/2005, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Farewell, [Aristotelian] genera and species! How could they >bring about 0anything. They are monsters. --Roger Bacon (1220-1292) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 17:39:01 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 17:39:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" References: <154.4ec26562.2f8996a9@aol.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050409162552.02665868@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <018b01c53d4c$8bdafa80$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriel Gudding Wm Blake wd have considered Grumman's confused linnaeanism Satanic. Yes, Blake once taxonomized taxonomy as satanic. One of my top three American poets, Cummings, was similarly irrational. Benedetto Croce's great essay "The Criticism of Artistic and Literary Kinds" is an excellent example of a more recent attack on this kind of NEW DEATH. So what? And why can't you do anything other than quote pseudo-authorities against what I'm doing? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 9 17:46:32 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 16:46:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <018b01c53d4c$8bdafa80$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <154.4ec26562.2f8996a9@aol.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20050409162552.02665868@mail.ilstu.edu> <018b01c53d4c$8bdafa80$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050409164421.0269b388@mail.ilstu.edu> At 04:39 PM 4/9/2005, Bob Grumman wrote: "And why can't you do anything other than quote pseudo-authorities against what I'm doing?" Wm Blake, probably one of the greatest poets in the last 500 years, and Benedetto Croce, certainly one of the greatest aestheticians in the past 1000 years: these guys are now pseudo-authorities. Okay. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 9 17:53:40 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 16:53:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] taxing equations In-Reply-To: <002a01c53d34$59318b20$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 4/9/05 1:45 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > I remember commenting on Bob's taxonomy once that it was as though one > proclaimed one self a taxonomic expert on cars, and started out by putting > "all American cars": in one category, and then discussing different years > and models of Volkswagens. Bob's response was that he thought that was > exactly how cars should be taxonomized. My thought was yeah, you could take > that position, but you're not going to be taken very seriously by anyone > with an interest in cars. This is it in a nutshell. A taxonomy, to be useful, needs to give you a sense of the whole. Dividing up everything into mainstream vs. burstnorm, and then acting as if these were roughly equal divisions--equal in terms of importance, demographics, aesthetics, readership, etc.--does not provide a true taxonomy but a cartoon. It blurs rather than enhances significant distinctions. So the Volkswagen vs. American cars analogy probably isn't extreme enough. You need something more along the lines of "The June 1927 recordings of Bix Beiderbecke" vs. "all music ever played, anywhere in the world." Then, every time someone alludes to reggae or Gregorian chant or bluegrass, you loudly complain that, once again, listeners are utterly ignoring Beiderbecke's June 1927 innovations. To object to that musical taxonomy is not to reject Bix Beiderbecke, needless to say; by the same token, it makes little sense to act as if Frank Sinatra is "the same" as junkanoo music. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Apr 9 19:31:38 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 15:31:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" Message-ID: <200504092210.j39MA0OA276100@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> O Bob, Blake may be a "pseudo-authority" to you, but "satanic" wouldn't necessarily be a put-down for him. Now, if Gabe had said "Urizenic," you might have a case there.... ---------- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2005, 1:39 PM ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriel Gudding Wm Blake wd have considered Grumman's confused linnaeanism Satanic. Yes, Blake once taxonomized taxonomy as satanic. One of my top three American poets, Cummings, was similarly irrational. Benedetto Croce's great essay "The Criticism of Artistic and Literary Kinds" is an excellent example of a more recent attack on this kind of NEW DEATH. So what? And why can't you do anything other than quote pseudo-authorities against what I'm doing? --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 18:15:18 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:15:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" References: <154.4ec26562.2f8996a9@aol.com><6.0.3.0.2.20050409162552.02665868@mail.ilstu.edu><018b01c53d4c$8bdafa80$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <6.0.3.0.2.20050409164421.0269b388@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <01a201c53d51$9d706000$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > At 04:39 PM 4/9/2005, Bob Grumman wrote: > "And why can't you do anything other than quote pseudo-authorities > against what I'm doing?" > > Wm Blake, probably one of the greatest poets in the last 500 years, and > Benedetto Croce, certainly one of the greatest aestheticians in the past > 1000 years: these guys are now pseudo-authorities. > > Okay. That's right. Quote Einstein or Newton or Eleanor Roosevelt against me and I'd say the same of them. Poetry and aesthetics are not epistemology, or logic, or whatever branch of philosophy or science it is that covers taxonomy. Furthermore, if Croce was against taxonomizing poetry, then he was either a moron or no philosopher of aesthetics. In any case, continue asserting my confusion and using pseudo-authorities or authorities against me. Just make sure not to attempt to use reason against me. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 18:34:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:34:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] taxing equations References: Message-ID: <01b101c53d54$3edc2850$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> I remember commenting on Bob's taxonomy once that it was as though one >> proclaimed one self a taxonomic expert on cars, and started out by >> putting >> "all American cars": in one category, and then discussing different years >> and models of Volkswagens. Bob's response was that he thought that was >> exactly how cars should be taxonomized. My thought was yeah, you could >> take >> that position, but you're not going to be taken very seriously by anyone >> with an interest in cars. > This is it in a nutshell. A taxonomy, to be useful, needs to give you a > sense of the whole. Dividing up everything into mainstream vs. burstnorm, > and then acting as if these were roughly equal divisions--equal in terms > of > importance, demographics, aesthetics, readership, etc.--does not provide a > true taxonomy but a cartoon. It blurs rather than enhances significant > distinctions. My taxonomy distinguishes poetries on the basis of what they materially are, not on how many stasguards compose them or think they're important. My response to the refusal of stasguards properly to acknowledge the existence of burstnorm poetry has nothing to do with my taxonomy--except that I use a term from it. As a polemicist, I of course divide poetry into three kinds: the properly admired, the improperly admired, and the improperly rejected. I mostly ignore the properly rejected. How else should I go about this? Proclaim the glories of such as Kooser, Ashbery, Wilbur and Dove, but humbly request 1% of the recognition they and other poets like them get for a kind of poetry I can't help feeling is effective--and believe to be of importance in any case because those who make it are poetry's research and development department? Your music analogy is close to worthless. A closer analogy would be to music around a hundred years ago: jazz as language poetry, Brahms as traditional verse, Schoenberg as burstnorm verse, Broadway music as standard free verse, pop music of all kinds as slam poetry. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 18:44:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:44:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy" References: <200504092210.j39MA0OA276100@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <01cf01c53d55$ac0cc640$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Re: [New-Poetry] against "taxonomy"O Bob, Blake may be a "pseudo-authority" to you, but "satanic" wouldn't necessarily be a put-down for him. Now, if Gabe had said "Urizenic," you might have a case there.... You're right, Chris. Still, it would seem William didn't like science of any kind very much--and he wasn't too consistent in his use of words. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 9 18:54:09 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 17:54:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] modest proposal In-Reply-To: <01b101c53d54$3edc2850$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/9/05 5:34 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: My > response to the refusal of stasguards properly to acknowledge the existence > of burstnorm poetry has nothing to do with my taxonomy--except that I use a > term from it. As a polemicist, I of course divide poetry into three kinds: > the properly admired, the improperly admired, and the improperly rejected. > I mostly ignore the properly rejected. How else should I go about this? Well, since you ask, I do have a suggestion. You could simply ignore discussions of Kooser, Ashbery, Wilbur, Dove, et al., since you evidently feel that they are not sufficiently different from each other to be worth much discussion. Then, instead of routinely heaping scorn on such poets and treating them, absurdly, as if they were in fact "the same," you could focus your considerable energies on talking about specific poets and poems that you *do* admire. Analyze the interesting stuff and see if you can interest others. I personally would find that more productive than hearing, ad infinitum, that mainstream poets are all "mediocrities," though I admit it is grimly amusing to see how often you make such charges in the same breath as admitting that you haven't read them closely. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 9 19:22:18 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:22:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] modest proposal References: Message-ID: <01ee01c53d5a$f9a135d0$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > My >> response to the refusal of stasguards properly to acknowledge the >> existence >> of burstnorm poetry has nothing to do with my taxonomy--except that I use >> a >> term from it. As a polemicist, I of course divide poetry into three >> kinds: >> the properly admired, the improperly admired, and the improperly >> rejected. >> I mostly ignore the properly rejected. How else should I go about this? > > Well, since you ask, I do have a suggestion. You could simply ignore > discussions of Kooser, Ashbery, Wilbur, Dove, et al., since you evidently > feel that they are not sufficiently different from each other to be worth > much discussion. They are not different from each other in the way that Cummings was different from all of them, and that VWs were different from the American cars of the time. > Then, instead of routinely heaping scorn on such poets and treating them, > absurdly, as if they were in fact "the same," you could focus your > considerable energies on talking about specific poets and poems that you > *do* admire. Analyze the interesting stuff and see if you can interest > others. Sure, stay in my little ghetto and analyze the interesting stuff for Kaz and Chris and Anny and a few others. Except for one thing, David: the stuff I deal with is mostly unpostable here. Nonetheless, I do post items now and again, most recently on a Cummings poem, and I give the address of my blog, which gets ten or eleven visits every day. > I personally would find that more productive than hearing, ad infinitum, > that mainstream poets are all "mediocrities," Please quote me on this. I admit to sometimes getting carried away because of excessive praise of certain established poets, but I certainly do not continually describe ALL mainstream poets as mediocrities. And why is saying negative things about poets one thinks inferior less productive than saying positive things (ad infinitum) about poets one thinks superior? Why, also, should superficial gush about long-certified poets be applauded? >though I admit it is grimly > amusing to see how often you make such charges in the same breath as > admitting that you haven't read them closely. David, you don't even know most of the names of the poets whose work you consider too unimportant to be given a family name on par with that of your kind of poets. If it weren't from me, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't know the name of anyone in visual poetry except Richard Kostelanetz. Aside from that, I read the poets I mention closely enough to be able to say whatever it is I say about them--with little or no substantive counters from anyone here. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 10 10:36:07 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:36:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <00e901c53d3b$00a07e10$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42590197.20956.3C233A5@localhost> On 9 Apr 2005 at 15:33, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> "Scuthered" does not mean "flummoxed," "confused" or "overwhelmed." > >> It means, "bored by something which one is incompetent to grasp." > >> A scuthered person does not feel confused or flummoxed or > >> overwhelmed. Marcus Bales wrote: > > Well, then Huth had it wrong: your term doesn't propose to tell the > > scuthered from the bored, but one kind of bored from another. Bob Grumman wrote: > Sorry, but once again I gave an off-hand informal definition of one of > my terms. Here's what "scuthered" means to me, now that I've thought > it through:< NOW that you've thought it through? You've been using this term since 1989 and only NOW you've thought it through? Bob Grumman wrote: >... the way a person feels when experiencing the symptoms of > boredom due to stimuli too complex for him to grasp as opposed to > experiencing actual boredom due to stimuli too simple for him too > enjoy. Such a person will describe his state as boredom, but he will > be incorrect. It happens ALL THE TIME. All the people whom math > bores, for instance. All the people who consider Shakespeare > "boring." All the people who consider serious poetry, even your kind, > boring. All the poeple who claim the most exciting board game of all > time, chess, is boring. All the many people who watch some sport they > nothing about and claim to be bored--and call soccer, for instance, > just a bunch of people running around kicking a ball. Etc.< Then Huth still got it wrong, didn't he -- scuthered simply defines one kind of boring. But even if we take Grumman's word to mean what Grumman says it means, it's just as Barry Spacks says: a definition that is value- laden: the person experiencing boredom, or describing the real experience AS boredom, is "incompetent" in Grumman's view. Scuthered ONLY deals with people who are "incompetent" at understanding the phenomenon that has sparked their feelings of boredom. If that's really all Grumman intends to say, the word has to fail as a general-purpose word because of that value-ladenness. It's like calling someone stupid to say they're scuthered as Grumman defines it. It's a term of vituperation, or at least opprobrium, not one of description. I know some very smart people who don't like one or more of chess, soccer, math, Shakespeare, poetry, for example, and who tune out when those subjects arise -- but to call them "incompetent" or even "incompetent to understand [pick one]" would be silly. They are perfectly competent to understand, they just have other things to do or other things they prefer to pay attention to. Not one of them is "bored" by the information stimulus, even when they don't understand all or part or even most of it. They may be baffled, confused, even overwhelmed, but they are not, by definition, "bored" because boredom is about lack of stimulation, not stimulation overload. I suspect that "scuthered" was invented, as Barry Spacks astutely points out about your other terms, as a loaded weapon with which to pop away at people who don't get what Grumman thinks he's doing. Far from being a neutral term of description this is a term of opprobrium directed at those who disagree with Bob Grumman. Who who's familiar with Grumman's writing and attitude believes that Bob Grumman would ever admit to being scuthered in the face of anything? No no -- Grumman is never scuthered. The scuthered are composed of those who don't get what Bob Grumman is talking about! > My theory of psychology explains it but I don't have time to get into > it in any kind of detail.< Oh, bullshit -- the constant refrain from Grumman is that he's got it all figured out but doesn't have time to explain it to the likes of us -- who will, no doubt in his mind, be scuthered by it anyway! Why waste his time on the scuthered? > To simplify, I believe the scuthered person > simply does not perceive all the details of a scuthering stimulus, so > actually is bored in the sense that he perceives only a few simple > details. The latter bore him while the details he misses numb him. > It's the combination of rejected excessively complex stimuli and > excessively predictable stimuli that result in scutherdom. This state > differs from boredom in that boredom results from excessively > predictable stimuli only: no excessively complex stimuli are rejected. > Excessively complex stimuli result in confusion, a feeling of being > overwhelmed, etc.< This doesn't make sense in its own terms. Grumman is saying that someone who is scuthered is able to predict and be bored by the very information that he or she doesn't understand well enough to make any predictions about. That's nonsense in a clown suit. > Okay. You're not criticizing my word for doing what some other words > already does. You just think it is not needed. I do, so will use it.< Well, you would, wouldn't you? > What if you want to refer to one member of an audience? > One audience member of this poem of mine said he liked the circle > about the word, "xhdoug?" Exactly -- or "one person who read this poem" or "one person who saw this painting". The problem with using "aesthceriencer" or "aesthcipient" is this: the sentence beginning "The aesthceriencer ..." itself has grammatical and syntactical connotations. That locution is academic. It implies that when speaking of "the" aesthcieriencer one is talking about the ideal, or the best, or the typical aesthceriencer, not a particular one. It's a rhetorical trick to use that locution to speak of one particular member of the audience because that locution implies that it is the typical or the best or the ideal member of the audience. I believe that part of the reason for Grumman declaring the need for such a word is the need to be able to elide the facts about just who he is talking about when he says "The aesthceriencer". What he's really talking about is just one person; what he wants his audience to understand, implicitly through grammatical and syntactical elision, is that there are lots of aesthceriencers out there who appreciate Grumman's work, and that if you, dear reader, are not one of them, well, then, you're scuthered. > There are degrees of judging things. Most people experience most art > with very little judgement beyond yes/no. They don't "audit" what > they aestherience.< I think this is flat wrong, too. This assumes that "most people" are scuthered by art -- and that's just wrong. Most people may be baffled or confused by Grumman's works, but the presumption that that means that there's something wrong with them instead of wrong with Grumman's works is pretty goddamned "bad-elitist". That attitude declares that people who don't get Grumman's work are just too incompetent, just too stupid, to be of any account. But people are not, in general, incompetent or stupid. They may be ignorant, and who among us is not more ignorant than we are informed, but they're not stupid. Ignorance is lacking information; stupidity is lacking processing power. What Grumman is saying is just the opposite: he's saying that anyone who does not have enough information to appreciate the genius of his work is stupid -- and that's "bad-elitism", as opposed to "good-elitism" of demanding excellence and holding people accountable for achieving and appreciating as much excellence as possible; for refusing to accept mediocrity as good enough. > What about approaching a dress that was not wrinkled or otherwise > "flawed?" You most of judge it free of wrinkles rather than enjoy its > color, texture, etc.?< My metaphor for your notion of approaching art without judgment was that that is like approaching "a wrinkled dress shirt without an iron". My previous metaphor was it's like being in the batter's box in a baseball game without a bat. My point is that if you insist that people approach your art without judgment that you're handicapping them and yourself. You cannot reasonably expect that you're playing fair with your audience if you're pitching to a bat-less batter; you cannot reasonably expect you are playing fair with your audience if you are wrinkling their dress shirts when they don't have an iron. In short, to demand that people come to your work without judgment is to demand that you get to cheat and they must accept a handicap. > Analytical criticism would say what's there. Evaluative criticism > would say whether it was good that it was there or not.< You can have no analysis without a theoretical framework; you can have no analysis without evaluation. It is just not possible. You have to know what to discount as artifacts of the observing apparatus, whether that apparatus is intellectual or physical. To judge from your profound ignorance (and ignorance is all I charge -- remember, I say ignorance is lack of information, not lack of processing power) about science and how science works leads me to believe you've never looked through a microsope. But the first thing you must learn when looking through a microscope is to ignore the rainbows around the edges of the field you're looking through: they are artifacts of the refractive power of the lens and the light being shined through it, and are not part of the thing you're supposed to be observing. You have to know that about your observing apparatus in order not to be deceived by that artifact of your apparatus into thinking that mosquito larvae (for example) throw off rainbows. In order to analyze you have to evaluate -- you have to know what context you're analyzing in, and you have to know what to look at and what not to look at; what to hear and what not to hear. Remember vinyl LPs? Remember the pops and scratches and hiss that CDs do not have because those pops and scratches and hisses were artifacts of the mechanics of needle-and-vinyl sound reproduction? Remember how you "listened past" all that noise to get to the signal of the music? Analysis and evaluation must go hand in hand. You cannot analyze without a theoretical framework. You have to know the theory: that the pops and scratches and hiss are not what to listen to, and that the music is what to listen to. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 10 11:21:44 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:21:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" References: <42590197.20956.3C233A5@localhost> Message-ID: <009401c53de1$019c8ce0$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 9 Apr 2005 at 15:33, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> "Scuthered" does not mean "flummoxed," "confused" or "overwhelmed." >> >> It means, "bored by something which one is incompetent to grasp." >> >> A scuthered person does not feel confused or flummoxed or >> >> overwhelmed. > > Marcus Bales wrote: >> > Well, then Huth had it wrong: your term doesn't propose to tell the >> > scuthered from the bored, but one kind of bored from another. > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> Sorry, but once again I gave an off-hand informal definition of one of >> my terms. Here's what "scuthered" means to me, now that I've thought >> it through:< > > NOW that you've thought it through? You've been using this term since > 1989 and only NOW you've thought it through? I thought it through when I came up with it. When it came up here, I didn't think through exactly what it meant, etc.--until my previous post. > Bob Grumman wrote: >>... the way a person feels when experiencing the symptoms of >> boredom due to stimuli too complex for him to grasp as opposed to >> experiencing actual boredom due to stimuli too simple for him too >> enjoy. Such a person will describe his state as boredom, but he will >> be incorrect. It happens ALL THE TIME. All the people whom math >> bores, for instance. All the people who consider Shakespeare >> "boring." All the people who consider serious poetry, even your kind, >> boring. All the poeple who claim the most exciting board game of all >> time, chess, is boring. All the many people who watch some sport they >> nothing about and claim to be bored--and call soccer, for instance, >> just a bunch of people running around kicking a ball. Etc.< > > Then Huth still got it wrong, didn't he -- scuthered simply defines > one kind of boring. Huth had it right. Reread what I said above. > But even if we take Grumman's word to mean what Grumman says it > means, it's just as Barry Spacks says: a definition that is value- > laden: the person experiencing boredom, or describing the real > experience AS boredom, is "incompetent" in Grumman's view. Scuthered > ONLY deals with people who are "incompetent" at understanding the > phenomenon that has sparked their feelings of boredom. It's a word for a evaluceptual state, yes. As a term describing a reaction to more complexity than the person involved can handle, it is non-evaluative. (A person can be a super-genius and still run into complexities too great for him too handle.) The only people who are incompetent so far as scutherdom is concerned are those who mistake it for boredom. > If that's really all Grumman intends to say, the word has to fail as > a general-purpose word because of that value-ladenness. It's like > calling someone stupid to say they're scuthered as Grumman defines > it. It's a term of vituperation, or at least opprobrium, not one of > description. I know some very smart people who don't like one or more > of chess, soccer, math, Shakespeare, poetry, for example, and who > tune out when those subjects arise -- but to call them "incompetent" > or even "incompetent to understand [pick one]" would be silly. They > are perfectly competent to understand, they just have other things to > do or other things they prefer to pay attention to. Not one of them > is "bored" by the information stimulus, even when they don't > understand all or part or even most of it. They may be baffled, > confused, even overwhelmed, but they are not, by definition, "bored" > because boredom is about lack of stimulation, not stimulation > overload. If they call Shakespeare boring, they are incompetent (in this small way) since they shold be saying Shakespeare is too complex for them to appreciate. Unless, of course, they are superior to Shakespeare, which is possible. > I suspect that "scuthered" was invented, as Barry Spacks astutely > points out about your other terms, as a loaded weapon with which to > pop away at people who don't get what Grumman thinks he's doing. Far > from being a neutral term of description this is a term of opprobrium > directed at those who disagree with Bob Grumman. Who who's familiar > with Grumman's writing and attitude believes that Bob Grumman would > ever admit to being scuthered in the face of anything? No no -- > Grumman is never scuthered. The scuthered are composed of those who > don't get what Bob Grumman is talking about! My motives, which you characterisitcally denigrate and get wrong are irrelevant. >> My theory of psychology explains it but I don't have time to get into >> it in any kind of detail.< > > Oh, bullshit -- the constant refrain from Grumman is that he's got it > all figured out but doesn't have time to explain it to the likes of > us -- who will, no doubt in his mind, be scuthered by it anyway! Why > waste his time on the scuthered? Sorry, Marcus. I've spent 35 years on it, and am finishing up a book that devotes about a hundred pages to perhaps a twentieth of it, so I have no excuse not to lay it all out for you here. Nonetheless, I am not going to lay it all out for you here. >> To simplify, I believe the scuthered person >> simply does not perceive all the details of a scuthering stimulus, so >> actually is bored in the sense that he perceives only a few simple >> details. The latter bore him while the details he misses numb him. >> It's the combination of rejected excessively complex stimuli and >> excessively predictable stimuli that result in scutherdom. This state >> differs from boredom in that boredom results from excessively >> predictable stimuli only: no excessively complex stimuli are rejected. >> Excessively complex stimuli result in confusion, a feeling of being >> overwhelmed, etc.< > > This doesn't make sense in its own terms. Grumman is saying that > someone who is scuthered is able to predict by "predict,' I mean cerebrally anticipate what is to come > and be bored by the very > information that he or she doesn't understand well enough to make any > predictions about. That's nonsense in a clown suit. What I said was to give a person trying to understand me a chance to get an idea of where I'm coming from. As such, it's an easy target for verosopaths. >> Okay. You're not criticizing my word for doing what some other words >> already does. You just think it is not needed. I do, so will use it.< > > Well, you would, wouldn't you? > >> What if you want to refer to one member of an audience? >> One audience member of this poem of mine said he liked the circle >> about the word, "xhdoug?" > > Exactly -- or "one person who read this poem" or "one person who saw > this painting". or one person who read the words in this visual poem and looked at its graphic elements? Why won't you take my word for it that one who writes about what I call pluraesthetic art needs a special word for those who interact with that kind of art, and do not simply read it, or simply look at it. That's a rhetorical question. I know why you won't take my word for it. > The problem with using "aesthceriencer" or > "aesthcipient" is this: the sentence beginning "The >aesthceriencer Please: "aestheriencer." > ..." itself has grammatical and syntactical connotations. That > locution is academic. It implies that when speaking of "the" > aesthcieriencer one is talking about the ideal, or the best, or the > typical aesthceriencer, not a particular one. It's a rhetorical trick > to use that locution to speak of one particular member of the > audience because that locution implies that it is the typical or the > best or the ideal member of the audience. I believe that part of the > reason for Grumman declaring the need for such a word is the need to > be able to elide the facts about just who he is talking about when he > says "The aesthceriencer". What he's really talking about is just one > person; what he wants his audience to understand, implicitly through > grammatical and syntactical elision, is that there are lots of > aesthceriencers out there who appreciate Grumman's work, and that if > you, dear reader, are not one of them, well, then, you're scuthered. One of your problems, Marcus, is that you think EVEYTHING is agenda-driven. I use "aestheriencer" to focus on someone having an aesthetic experience. That is all. It seems quite sensible and neutral to me. >> There are degrees of judging things. Most people experience most art >> with very little judgement beyond yes/no. They don't "audit" what >> they aestherience.< > > I think this is flat wrong, too. This assumes that "most people" are > scuthered by art -- and that's just wrong. Most people may be baffled > or confused by Grumman's works, but the presumption that that means > that there's something wrong with them instead of wrong with > Grumman's works is pretty goddamned "bad-elitist". That attitude > declares that people who don't get Grumman's work are just too > incompetent, just too stupid, to be of any account. > > But people are not, in general, incompetent or stupid. They may be > ignorant, and who among us is not more ignorant than we are informed, > but they're not stupid. Ignorance is lacking information; stupidity > is lacking processing power. What Grumman is saying is just the > opposite: he's saying that anyone who does not have enough > information to appreciate the genius of his work is stupid -- and > that's "bad-elitism", as opposed to "good-elitism" of demanding > excellence and holding people accountable for achieving and > appreciating as much excellence as possible; for refusing to accept > mediocrity as good enough. > >> What about approaching a dress that was not wrinkled or otherwise >> "flawed?" You most of judge it free of wrinkles rather than enjoy its >> color, texture, etc.?< > > My metaphor for your notion of approaching art without judgment was > that that is like approaching "a wrinkled dress shirt without an > iron". My previous metaphor was it's like being in the batter's box > in a baseball game without a bat. My point is that if you insist that > people approach your art without judgment that you're handicapping > them and yourself. You cannot reasonably expect that you're playing > fair with your audience if you're pitching to a bat-less batter; you > cannot reasonably expect you are playing fair with your audience if > you are wrinkling their dress shirts when they don't have an iron. In > short, to demand that people come to your work without judgment is to > demand that you get to cheat and they must accept a handicap. To say that people should come to anyone's work (and you have no valid reason for always assuming I only care about people coming to my own work) PRIMARILY to gain pleasure is not to say they should or can come to it without any judgement whatever. >> Analytical criticism would say what's there. Evaluative criticism >> would say whether it was good that it was there or not.< > > You can have no analysis without a theoretical framework; you can > have no analysis without evaluation. It is just not possible. You > have to know what to discount as artifacts of the observing > apparatus, whether that apparatus is intellectual or physical. To > judge from your profound ignorance (and ignorance is all I charge -- > remember, I say ignorance is lack of information, not lack of > processing power) about science and how science works leads me to > believe you've never looked through a microsope. But the first thing > you must learn when looking through a microscope is to ignore the > rainbows around the edges of the field you're looking through: they > are artifacts of the refractive power of the lens and the light being > shined through it, and are not part of the thing you're supposed to > be observing. You have to know that about your observing apparatus in > order not to be deceived by that artifact of your apparatus into > thinking that mosquito larvae (for example) throw off rainbows. > > In order to analyze you have to evaluate -- you have to know what > context you're analyzing in, and you have to know what to look at and > what not to look at; what to hear and what not to hear. Remember > vinyl LPs? Remember the pops and scratches and hiss that CDs do not > have because those pops and scratches and hisses were artifacts of > the mechanics of needle-and-vinyl sound reproduction? Remember how > you "listened past" all that noise to get to the signal of the music? > Analysis and evaluation must go hand in hand. You cannot analyze > without a theoretical framework. You have to know the theory: that > the pops and scratches and hiss are not what to listen to, and that > the music is what to listen to. > > Marcus I'll only say that I disagree completely with what you say and will continue in ignorance. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 10 11:56:43 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:56:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <009401c53de1$019c8ce0$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4259147B.17950.40BFDDB@localhost> On 10 Apr 2005 at 11:21, Bob Grumman wrote: > I thought it through when I came up with it. When it came up here, I > didn't think through exactly what it meant, etc.--until my previous > post.< This makes no sense at all -- but where's the surprise in that? Confusion is Grumman's vade mecum. > [Scuther]'s a word for a evaluceptual state, yes. As a term describing a > reaction to more complexity than the person involved can handle, it is > non-evaluative. (A person can be a super-genius and still run into > complexities too great for him too handle.) The only people who are > incompetent so far as scutherdom is concerned are those who mistake it > for boredom.< Well, then, you're scuthered by your own neologism, because YOU say it IS boredom. You say in the very definition of it that it IS boredom! > If they call Shakespeare boring, they are incompetent (in this small > way) since they shold be saying Shakespeare is too complex for them to > appreciate.< This is simple lying about what I've said. The entire paragraph I wrote was to point out that the people I referenced were NOT BORED. Here, again, though, is Grumman saying that people can only be scuthered if they're bored, which directly contradicts his claim that they can't be scuthered if they're bored. A direct contradiction of itself in its own definition and explanation has to be a drawback for a neologism. > >> ... I believe the scuthered person > >> simply does not perceive all the details of a scuthering stimulus, > >> so actually is bored in the sense that he perceives only a few > >> simple details. < Here again is Grumman declaring that one must be bored to be scuthered. Here, from his sentence above, is Grumman declaring that one cannot be scuthered if one "mistakes it for boredom" -- a direct contradiction. > The only people who are > incompetent so far as scutherdom is concerned are those who mistake > it for boredom.< Marcus wrote: > > This doesn't make sense in its own terms. Grumman is saying that > > someone who is scuthered is able to predict Grumman wrote: > by "predict,' I mean cerebrally anticipate what is to come Just so -- Grumman is saying that people have to be able to understand it well enough to cerebrally anticipate what is to come while being so incompetent to understand well enough what is to come that they cannot cerebrally anticipate it. That's a direct contradiction, too. No one can be both able to cerebrally anticipate and not cerebrally anticipate the same thing at the same time. Grumman's definitions are nonsense; his attempts to explain his definitions are nonsense in a clown suit. If he spent another 35 years on it maybe it would be nonsense in a clown suit on stilts. > ... Why won't you take my word for it that one who > writes about what I call pluraesthetic art needs a special word for > those who interact with that kind of art, and do not simply read it, > or simply look at it. Because all art is pluraesthetic, and we've gotten along without definitions that directly contradict themselves in their definitions for thousands of years. Definitions that directly contradict themselves are worthless as definitions, and the words they define cannot be reasonably used. Either do better on your definitions or give it up. > One of your problems, Marcus, is that you think EVEYTHING is > agenda-driven. I use "aestheriencer" to focus on someone having an > aesthetic experience. That is all. It seems quite sensible and > neutral to me.< An aesthetic experience can only be had in a particular cultural context, and that cultural context is not neutral and cannot be neutral. This is the problem with the entirety of Grumman's approach: he's fundamentally and unmistakably wrong in the way he has begun. He has begun by assuming, against all the evidence, that when he looks at art he is looking at objects with non-volitional self-replicating and necessary characteristics whose reproduction can be predicted with a reliability that approaches certainty. Art, of course, is nothing of the kind. It's made volitionally by human beings who can, and do, respond directly to the input of comments about it. The difference between art and science is that no matter how loudly or how often you tell people that their genetics cannot influence their children's eye color, their genetics will influence their children's eye color; while an artist can change a painting's eye color at his or her whim or caprice. Grumman is simply wrong about what art is, wrong about what science is, and wrong to try to apply scientific terminology to art as if he understood either. > To say that people should come to anyone's work (and you have no valid > reason for always assuming I only care about people coming to my own > work) PRIMARILY to gain pleasure is not to say they should or can come > to it without any judgement whatever.< But Grumman has said that aestheriencers MUST come to the art WITHOUT any judgment, without any evaluative apparatus; NOW he says that that's not the case. Grumman is, typically, trying to have it both ways, again. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 10 13:32:03 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:32:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" References: <4259147B.17950.40BFDDB@localhost> Message-ID: <00b301c53df3$35ff05a0$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I've let you draw me too far into this demonstration of your verosopathy already, Marcus, so I'm out of here. --B. Grumman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "Bob Grumman" ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman's "taxonomy" > On 10 Apr 2005 at 11:21, Bob Grumman wrote: >> I thought it through when I came up with it. When it came up here, I >> didn't think through exactly what it meant, etc.--until my previous >> post.< > > This makes no sense at all -- but where's the surprise in that? > Confusion is Grumman's vade mecum. > >> [Scuther]'s a word for a evaluceptual state, yes. As a term describing a >> reaction to more complexity than the person involved can handle, it is >> non-evaluative. (A person can be a super-genius and still run into >> complexities too great for him too handle.) The only people who are >> incompetent so far as scutherdom is concerned are those who mistake it >> for boredom.< > > Well, then, you're scuthered by your own neologism, because YOU say > it IS boredom. You say in the very definition of it that it IS > boredom! > >> If they call Shakespeare boring, they are incompetent (in this small >> way) since they shold be saying Shakespeare is too complex for them to >> appreciate.< > > This is simple lying about what I've said. The entire paragraph I > wrote was to point out that the people I referenced were NOT BORED. > Here, again, though, is Grumman saying that people can only be > scuthered if they're bored, which directly contradicts his claim that > they can't be scuthered if they're bored. A direct contradiction of > itself in its own definition and explanation has to be a drawback for > a neologism. > >> >> ... I believe the scuthered person >> >> simply does not perceive all the details of a scuthering stimulus, >> >> so actually is bored in the sense that he perceives only a few >> >> simple details. < > > Here again is Grumman declaring that one must be bored to be > scuthered. Here, from his sentence above, is Grumman declaring that > one cannot be scuthered if one "mistakes it for boredom" -- a direct > contradiction. > >> The only people who are >> incompetent so far as scutherdom is concerned are those who mistake >> it for boredom.< > > Marcus wrote: >> > This doesn't make sense in its own terms. Grumman is saying that >> > someone who is scuthered is able to predict > > Grumman wrote: >> by "predict,' I mean cerebrally anticipate what is to come > > Just so -- Grumman is saying that people have to be able to > understand it well enough to cerebrally anticipate what is to come > while being so incompetent to understand well enough what is to come > that they cannot cerebrally anticipate it. That's a direct > contradiction, too. No one can be both able to cerebrally anticipate > and not cerebrally anticipate the same thing at the same time. > Grumman's definitions are nonsense; his attempts to explain his > definitions are nonsense in a clown suit. If he spent another 35 > years on it maybe it would be nonsense in a clown suit on stilts. > >> ... Why won't you take my word for it that one who >> writes about what I call pluraesthetic art needs a special word for >> those who interact with that kind of art, and do not simply read it, >> or simply look at it. > > Because all art is pluraesthetic, and we've gotten along without > definitions that directly contradict themselves in their definitions > for thousands of years. Definitions that directly contradict > themselves are worthless as definitions, and the words they define > cannot be reasonably used. Either do better on your definitions or > give it up. > >> One of your problems, Marcus, is that you think EVEYTHING is >> agenda-driven. I use "aestheriencer" to focus on someone having an >> aesthetic experience. That is all. It seems quite sensible and >> neutral to me.< > > An aesthetic experience can only be had in a particular cultural > context, and that cultural context is not neutral and cannot be > neutral. This is the problem with the entirety of Grumman's approach: > he's fundamentally and unmistakably wrong in the way he has begun. He > has begun by assuming, against all the evidence, that when he looks > at art he is looking at objects with non-volitional self-replicating > and necessary characteristics whose reproduction can be predicted > with a reliability that approaches certainty. Art, of course, is > nothing of the kind. It's made volitionally by human beings who can, > and do, respond directly to the input of comments about it. The > difference between art and science is that no matter how loudly or > how often you tell people that their genetics cannot influence their > children's eye color, their genetics will influence their children's > eye color; while an artist can change a painting's eye color at his > or her whim or caprice. Grumman is simply wrong about what art is, > wrong about what science is, and wrong to try to apply scientific > terminology to art as if he understood either. > >> To say that people should come to anyone's work (and you have no valid >> reason for always assuming I only care about people coming to my own >> work) PRIMARILY to gain pleasure is not to say they should or can come >> to it without any judgement whatever.< > > But Grumman has said that aestheriencers MUST come to the art WITHOUT > any judgment, without any evaluative apparatus; NOW he says that > that's not the case. Grumman is, typically, trying to have it both > ways, again. > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 10 13:44:02 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:44:02 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry contest References: <4259147B.17950.40BFDDB@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c53df4$e27f8650$fbde3052@ANNY> >From the following link: http://mhpress.blogspot.com/ MARSH HAWK PRESS POETRY CONTEST To remind, the deadline for Marsh Hawk Press' second annual poetry contest is coming up at April 30, 2005. We thought it may be useful to describe the process of our contest (judged this year by Gerald Stern): How Contest Entries Are Judged We use a blind judging system to arrive at the contest winner. This is how we do it: 1. After we've received your entry, we remove identifying information about you from the manuscript, and assign it a unique number. We also enter your name, address, name of your manuscript and the number we've assigned you into our database, in order to keep track of your work. The people who do this preparation do not judge the entries. 2. Once all entries have been received and the contest is closed, we divide the manuscripts into roughly equal piles and assign them to eight senior Marsh Hawk Press editors. The editors meet in teams of two to read each manuscript. Manuscripts are exchanged so that two editors read each entry. 3. When this initial screening process is complete, the 30-70 finalists are announced and the manuscripts are turned over to the final contest judge. Final contest judges must affirm that they have no knowledge of the author of the manuscripts that they are to read. Students, former students, relatives and friends of the judge are automatically excluded. 4. The winner and runners-up are announced approximately one month following the final judge's receipt of the manuscripts. Contest winners receive the $1,000 prize and publication of their book the following spring. The diversity and quality of the Marsh Hawk Press titles reflects the integrity and success of the screening and judging process. We invite you to judge for yourself. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 10 13:46:13 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:46:13 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry contest References: <4259147B.17950.40BFDDB@localhost> <001301c53df4$e27f8650$fbde3052@ANNY> Message-ID: <001801c53df5$30b83e70$fbde3052@ANNY> better, the same thing in colors and more logical format: http://marshhawkpress.org/Contests%20and%20Submissions.htm > >From the following link: http://mhpress.blogspot.com/ > > MARSH HAWK PRESS POETRY CONTEST > > To remind, the deadline for Marsh Hawk Press' second annual poetry contest > is coming up at April 30, 2005. We thought it may be useful to describe > the process of our contest (judged this year by Gerald Stern): > > How Contest Entries Are Judged > > We use a blind judging system to arrive at the contest winner. This is how > we do it: > > 1. After we've received your entry, we remove identifying information > about you from the manuscript, and assign it a unique number. We also > enter your name, address, name of your manuscript and the number we've > assigned you into our database, in order to keep track of your work. The > people who do this preparation do not judge the entries. > > 2. Once all entries have been received and the contest is closed, we > divide the manuscripts into roughly equal piles and assign them to eight > senior Marsh Hawk Press editors. The editors meet in teams of two to read > each manuscript. Manuscripts are exchanged so that two editors read each > entry. > > 3. When this initial screening process is complete, the 30-70 finalists > are announced and the manuscripts are turned over to the final contest > judge. Final contest judges must affirm that they have no knowledge of the > author of the manuscripts that they are to read. Students, former > students, relatives and friends of the judge are automatically excluded. > > 4. The winner and runners-up are announced approximately one month > following the final judge's receipt of the manuscripts. > > Contest winners receive the $1,000 prize and publication of their book the > following spring. The diversity and quality of the Marsh Hawk Press titles > reflects the integrity and success of the screening and judging process. > We invite you to judge for yourself. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 10 14:16:41 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:16:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Bob-List References: <42590197.20956.3C233A5@localhost> Message-ID: <00e801c53dfa$c4f7ce20$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> As Mr. Spacks has shown, the Bob-List is devoted entirely to my attempts to advance my own career as a poet through denigration of all forms of poetry except my own few very limited ("experimental") ones. However: My one full-length book, Of Manywhere-at-Once, devotes one (highly favorable) chapter apiece of its twenty chapters to: (1) Yeats, (2) Keats, (3) Stevens, (4) Pound and (5) Roethke, only one of whom was seriously experimental. It also positively discusses a Shakespeare sonnet and a passage by neo-formalist, Richard Wilbur (albeit Wilbur's passage is surrealistic). The book contains a full chapter on the standard auditory devices of alliteration, rhyme, etc., as well. Its central claim is that the metaphor is what most makes poetry what it is, not freshness of technique. Its central narrative concerns my attempt to write a traditional sonnet, with many versions of the sonnet-in-progress shown. The final version of that sonnet, by the way, is now on display at Anny's site. My website, Comprepoetica, has a section devoted to bios of anyone who calls himself a poet and send me a bio (or would if I hadn't gotten so far behind at running the damned thing). It is open to every kind of poet. An essay section is similarly open to essays by anyone on any variety of poetry. I've written a half dozen or more reviews for American Poetry Review. Only one of them was about a burstnorm poet, and all but one of the others were quite favorable about poets I consider very mainstream, the latest being Catherine Daly. I've written a number of reviews of conventional haiku for Modern Haiku. My Small Press Review column is specialized, so does cover my kind of poets just about exclusively, but I've also written positive reviews outside my column of other kinds of poets for it. Here at New-Poetry I've many times praised poems by knownstream poets. That I should be expected not to give my opinion about knownstream poems and poets I don't like seems to me ridiculous. That I should be considered primarily (or SOLELY) self-aggrandizing seems to me insane. I say that however wrong I can certainly be, and opinionated I nearly always am, my main concern as a commentator on poetry is NOT to obliterate all but one tiny form of it in order to rank first in the field; it is simply to give my honest view of poetry in hopes that others will learn or be entertained by it, and possibly help me improve it with intelligent criticism of it rather than with my alleged motives for holding it. Note: I think a problem many have with what I say is that they too unreflectingly take my (often over-stated)negativity about one aspect of a poem to mean I think the poem is worthless. For particular instance (locution intended), I might speak scornfully of how unadventurous some poem is, technically. That would not mean I hated it. I might, and sometimes do in such a case, very much admire it. I will admit that I have a tempermental difficulty in understanding poets who never take technical risks. Consequently, I'm apt to attack them for this "flaw." Yes, I genuinely look down on them for having it. Still, to each his own, and we all have flaws. Ergo, even then, my attack won't necessarily mean I think their poetry no good. I think Spacks' late night in a tower poem excellent, in fact. I can't say the same for any of my worse denigrator's poetry, but haven't seen much of it (and will say that what I have seen of it seems competent enough, and sometimes amusing). --Bob Grumman From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 10 14:51:27 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:51:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Bob-List In-Reply-To: <00e801c53dfa$c4f7ce20$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42593D6F.27067.4ABF9F9@localhost> On 10 Apr 2005 at 14:16, Bob Grumman wrote: > However: ... Probably Grumman has another secret meaning for "I'm out of here", too -- one that allows him to be out of here and participating in here at the same time. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 10 15:00:49 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:00:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Bob-List References: <42593D6F.27067.4ABF9F9@localhost> Message-ID: <010701c53dff$9cbe9e20$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Probably Grumman has another secret meaning for "I'm out of here", > too Or a different meaning for "here" ( such is here in this particular thread) than the single one that is the only one you can think of because you want to use the meaning to denigrate someone with. From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 10 15:12:08 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:12:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Bob-List In-Reply-To: <010701c53dff$9cbe9e20$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42594248.23420.4BEE77F@localhost> > > Probably Grumman has another secret meaning for "I'm out of here", > > too On 10 Apr 2005 at 15:00, Bob Grumman wrote: > Or a different meaning for "here" ( such is here in this particular > thread) than the single one that is the only one you can think of > because you want to use the meaning to denigrate someone with. I don't denigrate YOU, Bob -- I denigrate the way you often present your ideas and many of your ideas. Learn to separate your self from your opinion or you'll never be able to have civil discussions without feeling as if you've been personally attacked if someone disagrees with you. Marcus From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 10 15:56:09 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:56:09 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Bob-List References: <42593D6F.27067.4ABF9F9@localhost> <010701c53dff$9cbe9e20$3db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001d01c53e07$57ed2660$d2ab3252@ANNY> And a fine contribution, too. If you wish to see it, I was able to put it on with a hiccupping pc (never mind I will continue for a while on this sad tone...): http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=162 take care, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 16:05:25 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:05:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] taxing equations In-Reply-To: <01b101c53d54$3edc2850$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <01b101c53d54$3edc2850$95b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a05041013055dd90c96@mail.gmail.com> My analogy and whip your taxonomy! Bring on the metaphors! Jeff Newberry On Apr 9, 2005 6:34 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> I remember commenting on Bob's taxonomy once that it was as though one > >> proclaimed one self a taxonomic expert on cars, and started out by > >> putting > >> "all American cars": in one category, and then discussing different > years > >> and models of Volkswagens. Bob's response was that he thought that was > >> exactly how cars should be taxonomized. My thought was yeah, you could > >> take > >> that position, but you're not going to be taken very seriously by > anyone > >> with an interest in cars. > > > This is it in a nutshell. A taxonomy, to be useful, needs to give you a > > sense of the whole. Dividing up everything into mainstream vs. > burstnorm, > > and then acting as if these were roughly equal divisions--equal in terms > > of > > importance, demographics, aesthetics, readership, etc.--does not provide > a > > true taxonomy but a cartoon. It blurs rather than enhances significant > > distinctions. > > My taxonomy distinguishes poetries on the basis of what they materially > are, > not on how many stasguards compose them or think they're important. My > response to the refusal of stasguards properly to acknowledge the > existence > of burstnorm poetry has nothing to do with my taxonomy--except that I use > a > term from it. As a polemicist, I of course divide poetry into three kinds: > the properly admired, the improperly admired, and the improperly rejected. > I mostly ignore the properly rejected. How else should I go about this? > Proclaim the glories of such as Kooser, Ashbery, Wilbur and Dove, but > humbly > request 1% of the recognition they and other poets like them get for a > kind > of poetry I can't help feeling is effective--and believe to be of > importance > in any case because those who make it are poetry's research and > development > department? > > Your music analogy is close to worthless. A closer analogy would be to > music around a hundred years ago: jazz as language poetry, Brahms as > traditional verse, Schoenberg as burstnorm verse, Broadway music as > standard > free verse, pop music of all kinds as slam poetry. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 10 16:34:13 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:34:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] taxing equations In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05041013055dd90c96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Metaphors be with you! Hal My analogy and whip your taxonomy! Bring on the metaphors! Jeff Newberry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 10 17:03:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:03:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] taxing equations References: Message-ID: <002701c53e10$c94ddfd0$d2ab3252@ANNY> An interesting essay on the New Octopus 5: http://www.octopusmagazine.com/issue05/html/main.html THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING! THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING! Field Notes on Russian-American Poets and the Question of Bilingual Poetry; Volume One : Philip Nikolayev, Eugene Ostashevsky, Ilya Bernstein, and Genya Turovskaya by Matvei Yankelevich -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 10 17:15:58 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:15:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] National Poetry Month Message-ID: National Poetry Month When a poem speaks by itself, it has a spark and can be considered part of a divine conversation. Sometimes the poem weaves like a basket around two loaves of yellow bread. "Break off a piece of this April with its raisin nipples," it says. "And chew them slowly under your pillow. You belong in bed with me." On the other hand, when a poem speaks in the voice of a celebrity it is called television or a movie. "There is nothing to see," say Robert De Niro, though his poem bleeds all along the edges like a puddle crudely outlined with yellow tape at the crime scene of spring. "It is an old poem," he adds. "And besides, I was very young when I made it." -- Elaine Equi. *The Cloud of Knowable Things* Coffee House Press, 2003. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 10 17:35:55 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:35:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: dixie cream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42599C3B.9070907@ix.netcom.com> */The Assassinated Press /* http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ HOMELAND PORK---A BRAND YOU CAN COUNT ON! Homeland Security Funding Formula To Get Fresh Pork: People In Rural Red States Suffer From More Paranoid Delusions, Require Funds For Clinical Assessment CDC Concludes: Many In Utah Concerned Monster Truck Rallies, Tittie Bars Might Be Targets For Terrorists: Dixie Cream In Arkansas Received Anonymous A-Rab-like Threats: "My children can't sleep for fear of 'nukuler' attack I put in my kids' heads with rapture talk," Worries Wyoming Mother Of Six: Terrorists Said To Target American Textile States---Oh Sorry. That was NAFTA: "I'll be fucked by a chief executive made of buckeyfullerenes before I let one red cent go to protect the niggers, fags, kikes, grease balls, gooks and guineas living in New York," declares Texas lawmaker, Sam Johnson BY DOOBIE BARFLY ASSASSINATED PRESS WASHINGTON BUREAU April 7, 2005 WASHINGTON, Satan's Anus -- The fight, quite literally, over who gets the Homeland Security awards of billions in funding there for the stealing is heating up, with Congress set to debate next week measures that would shift more money from places like New York - areas considered more vulnerable to terrorist attacks to unpopulated areas of Wyoming and Montana that could use development money for clandestine air strips, a Wal Mart, air bases and a secret bunker or two. "Fuck no!" declared outspoken Texas legislator and some god's shortcoming, Sam Johnson. "New York's 'xactly where we want the terrorists to strike. Kill them jews, homos and niggers. Give us red states the money for crocodile tears and programs telling our little white mamas out here to get on the stick, so to speak, and produce more creamy white babies for future Iraqi invasions as we take over the world. Sieg fuckin' Heil." "'Sides. We need the money 'round chere. People round chere are fucked up. Take me for example," added Johnson. "I'd feel a whole lot calmer with a whore, a hundred thousand dollars in my speedos and some raspberry toot." Dr. Willis Wontos of the Atlanta CDC said, "Its true. Them dumb fucks from the least populated states are suffering clinical anxiety, hate mongering and just abject sissyness at rates far exceeding people who live near ground zero. There are surpluses of duct tape and plastic in states like Wyoming and Montana that would make Christo drool. I mean more than he ordinarily does." Since there is no source of funds to buy them off other than the money set aside for Homeland Security, like last year's battle over the funding formula, some lawmakers from more rural and less-populated states appear to agree that much of the funding should go to areas unlikely to be targeted. Meanwhile, taking into consideration voting patterns, officials from the Department of Homeland Security and the White House are also pushing to target the money to low-risk areas. "We have to make the argument that this is not just a highway bill...We're talking about issues of life and death here," said Rep. Peter King (R-Seaford), chair of a Homeland Security subcommittee. "And them darkies and free thinkers on the coast didn't vote our way. So fuck 'em. Its death," Seaford sputtered as he turned his thumbs down in the gesture of a Roman emperor. King will chair a hearing on a House measure Tuesday. New York lawmakers expect a contentious battle over the federal aid, which the 9/11 commission warned could become "pork barrel" projects. "At the end of the day, rural members will continue to fight to get every dollar they can divert from high-threat states like New York to their low-threat districts," said Rep. Steve Israel (D-Huntington). "Anybody who believes the members from Wyoming, Wisconsin and Alaska are suddenly going to wake up one morning saying that all the security dollars ought to be spent where people named Israel live is dreaming." At issue are two measures to change the department's funding formula. Currently, one grant program gives the most per capita to the least populous states because they don'e need security projects and that leaves a lot of loose cash to distribute to local elites. A bill proposed by Sens. Susan Collins (R-Maine), chairwoman of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, and Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.) would give all states a minimum share of the funds. The remaining money would be awarded based on such things as color and religious preference and population density which is code for "Them fuckin' Puerto Ricans breed like rabbits.". Requests not involving people of color would have preference. The plan leaves much of the decision to the discretion of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. "We wanted to straight-jacket him until somebody said he was the Cheney appointee," said a committee staffer. Rep. Christopher Cox (R-Calif.), chair of the Homeland Security Committee, plans to introduce a bill in upcoming days that would set a lower minimum for states and set up a program that would identify all hetero whites on the left coast as official citizens of Utah to boost funding. Meanwhile, Homeland Security officials recently outlined a plan to alter the funding formula and weigh factors such as how easy is it to hide cash in the state and can it be bundled and smuggled off shore. Using those criteria Florida seems likely to receive the lion's share of Homeland pork. "We need to direct our finances where we think terrorists are not interested," said Matt Mayer, acting director of the agency's Office of State and Local Government Coordination and Preparedness. "Then we just grab dollars out the air as Uncle Sam blows them out his ass, just like we always do." > > From MillB at aol.com Sun Apr 10 17:38:56 2005 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:38:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Project Proposals Message-ID: Greetings List Members, As is the usual case when spring starts to peek out, I am working on a number of applications and grants and such. Other years, perhaps, I have had more academic projects in mind, or I have been more articulate, but I don't know. Burn out? Who knows? However, I am, for some reason, finding it difficult to put together a cohesive five page project description or even 250 words that basically says: "Please give me a stipend and free time to write." So, I thought, perhaps, a few of the folks on the list might be willing to send me a past project proposal--that I could review as a sample? Particularly I would like to see how the issue of trying to describe the creative process is addressed and the stipend and/or the grant funding is justified for what is basically "free time to work." I got snippy on one and just wrote a single declarative sentence (which I KNOW is not the right thing to do!). Please save me from embarrassing myself again. I would love to hear how others have successfully handled this sticky situation. Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 10 18:08:04 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:08:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry contest References: <4259147B.17950.40BFDDB@localhost><001301c53df4$e27f8650$fbde3052@ANNY> <001801c53df5$30b83e70$fbde3052@ANNY> Message-ID: <000d01c53e19$c76afff0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Good for them. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anny Ballardini" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry contest > better, the same thing in colors and more logical format: > http://marshhawkpress.org/Contests%20and%20Submissions.htm > >> >From the following link: http://mhpress.blogspot.com/ >> >> MARSH HAWK PRESS POETRY CONTEST >> >> To remind, the deadline for Marsh Hawk Press' second annual poetry >> contest is coming up at April 30, 2005. We thought it may be useful to >> describe the process of our contest (judged this year by Gerald Stern): >> >> How Contest Entries Are Judged >> >> We use a blind judging system to arrive at the contest winner. This is >> how we do it: >> >> 1. After we've received your entry, we remove identifying information >> about you from the manuscript, and assign it a unique number. We also >> enter your name, address, name of your manuscript and the number we've >> assigned you into our database, in order to keep track of your work. The >> people who do this preparation do not judge the entries. >> >> 2. Once all entries have been received and the contest is closed, we >> divide the manuscripts into roughly equal piles and assign them to eight >> senior Marsh Hawk Press editors. The editors meet in teams of two to read >> each manuscript. Manuscripts are exchanged so that two editors read each >> entry. >> >> 3. When this initial screening process is complete, the 30-70 finalists >> are announced and the manuscripts are turned over to the final contest >> judge. Final contest judges must affirm that they have no knowledge of >> the author of the manuscripts that they are to read. Students, former >> students, relatives and friends of the judge are automatically excluded. >> >> 4. The winner and runners-up are announced approximately one month >> following the final judge's receipt of the manuscripts. >> >> Contest winners receive the $1,000 prize and publication of their book >> the following spring. The diversity and quality of the Marsh Hawk Press >> titles reflects the integrity and success of the screening and judging >> process. We invite you to judge for yourself. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Apr 10 09:53:25 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:53:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Letter from a former art student regarding progressive politics Message-ID: I received this exposition recently from someone who has given up on the hippest of the hip art scene. He isn't a bad painter, in my view, although restricted to traditional landscapes, for the most part. He could exhibit at the Wally Findlay gallery, in my opinion, on Worth Avenue, but not with Mary Boone. I doubt the people on this list would find his work very interesting. In any case, his disillusionment with the political scene in places like the East Village, as he answers my inquiry regarding what he went through long ago in his Cafe Orlin days, may prove instructive to some readers who are baffled as to why glib and profane anti-Pope writings, for instance, are apparently believed to be profound by some here and elsewhere. I'm leaving off his name but will give it to those inclined to ask backchannel. I know that some people would advise him to loosen up a little. The reader may discount what he says as being sour grapes, but I think there is something here of value. R i c h a r d D i l l o n ELEMENOPE Productions >At that time I was still childish enough to try to make the madness >of their doctrine clear to them; in my little circle I talked my >tongue sore and my throat hoarse, thinking I would inevitably >succeed in convincing them how ruinous their Marxist madness was; >but what I accomplished was often the opposite. It seemed as though >their increased understanding of the destructive effects of >radically liberal Utopianistic theories and their results only >reinforced their determination. > >The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their >dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, >and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply >played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to >understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, >quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately >related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, >gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking >about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand >closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through >your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you >really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed >by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed >that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement >was great the next day. The pseudo-intellectual had not the >slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same >old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if >indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a >thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions >the previous day. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au Sun Apr 10 23:45:51 2005 From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:45:51 +1000 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] seek subs In-Reply-To: <200504101600.j3AG030u030933@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20050411034551.47667.qmail@web51410.mail.yahoo.com> m a l l e a b le jangle is seeking your submissions of poetry, poetics, and reviews. possibly important - talked about - read - a poetry journal read how here, submission page at http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com Online poetry journal : http://www.malleablejangle.netfirms.com Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Apr 11 00:04:59 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:04:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fascicle: open call Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050410230436.02b87fa8@mail.ilstu.edu> From Tony Tost... >>____________________________________________ >> >> >>F A S C I C L E >> >>o p e n c a l l >>________________________ >> >> >>This summer I will be launching a new online site >>called Fascicle with the help of Chris Vitiello and >>Ken Rumble. Another web journal, I know, but one with >>some focus, hopefully. We're looking at running a new >>issue twice a year. >> >> >>Essays/Reviews/etc. >> >>In the spirit of Jacket, Talisman, Sulfur and other >>journals that present a possible context for the poems >>and poetics found therein, Fascicle welcomes critical >>prose on various historical and cultural tendencies >>that inform an innovative aesthetic. Welcome topics >>would include (but are not limited to) Negritude, >>Outsider Writing (however defined), Fluxus, >>Ethnopoetics (as represented by various anthologies >>and writings by the Rothenbergs, Tedlock, etc.), >>performance poetries, the Beats, visual poetries (from >>Concrete to the work found in the Rasula/McCaffery >>Imagining Language anthology), Flarf, Language >>writing. Writing on individual writers and artists is >>also welcomed; a representative listing of possible >>subjects might include Hannah Weiner, bp nichol, >>Jonathan Williams, Ian Hamilton Finlay, Tom Raworth, >>Anne Tardos, Kathy Acker, Antonin Artaud, Jess, Ed >>Roberson, Jacques Roubaud, besmilr bingham. >> >>Reviews of recent titles are also always welcome. >> >> >>Local News >> >>A regular feature of Fascicle will be a (as yet >>untitled) local news section consisting of the poetry >>news from various communities. What we're hoping for >>is a venue by which various communities can stay >>informed as to recent activities in various other >>communities, and a venue by which all will have access >>to news, ideas and happenings viewed through local >>eyes. We have 'correspondents' already from Philly and >>the Triangle area in North Carolina, and are searching >>for people from Austin, Atlanta, DC, Vancouver, >>Milwaukee, San Francisco and elsewhere, including >>communities of much smaller measure. Two's company, >>three's a community. >> >>"The news" is free to the correspondents' >>interpretation: it could be news of recent >>publications, readings, social and political poetry >>activities; it can also be news as to "what's in the >>air" aesthetically. Fascicle is looking for two to >>three paragraphs from each correspondent, twice a >>year. >> >> >> >>Word of Mouth >>[ working title ] >> >>Fascicle will also feature short 1-2 paragraph >>review/notices of work that falls under the publishing >>radar. This includes chapbooks, self-published books, >>internet work, audio and so forth. If it's too small >>to make SPD and you think it's worthy of notice, we >>want to run your review/notice. >> >>Write-ups for the Word of Mouth section should be 1-2 >>paragraphs long and include information for ordering >>and/or finding the work. >> >> >> >>Family Tree >> >>Another omnibus section in a similar vein as Octopus' >>Recovery Project. Fascicle welcomes short write-ups of >>texts (from any era) that you consider primary to your >>understanding of poetry, that you feel are >>under-recognized essential texts. For example, I'll >>probably write on either Clayton Eshleman's Juniper >>Fuse or the Mary Margaret Sloan edited Moving Borders: >>Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women. >> >> >> >>Translations, etc. >> >>Fascicle seeks translations, ideally of contemporary >>poets and writers, but also of relevant historical >>figures. >> >>Additionally, English language poets from outside of >>the US are especially invited to submit innovative >>work; Fascicle seeks to present a view of innovative >>writing as both a global and local occurrence. >> >> >>Thanks --- >> >>Tony Tost >>editor, Fascicle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Apr 11 00:27:40 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:27:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE BIRTHDAY OF CHRISTOPHER SMART Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050410232733.027f7630@mail.ilstu.edu> b. April 11 1722 d. May 21 1771 "For I have seen the White Raven and Thomas Hall of Willingham and am my self a greater curiosity than both." Jubilate Agno -- Bond edition, fragment B1, line 25 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Apr 11 02:36:43 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:36:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again on Conchology Blog Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050411013629.02c07998@mail.ilstu.edu> A Celebration of the Birth of the Lord's News-Writer: The Instauration of Christopher Smart Day Raping Dolphins in Boulder with Hans Arp: On the Spiritual Activism of the Comic Mode Being a Failed Historian Other stuff. http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Apr 11 10:29:42 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:29:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes Message-ID: Ron Silliman's blog today features a lengthy rumination on his favorite put-down term, The School of Quietude. The most fleshed-out explanation I've seen of this obviously controversial notion. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ He begins with a curve-ball, quoting a silly bit of hate mail he received from a "relatively recent" winner of the Pulitzer. He doesn't say what might have prompted the note (did RS perhaps express an *opinion* of this poet's work?), and I'm not about to go investigate. But let the speculation begin! Was it Franz Wright? Stephen Dunn? C. K. Wright? But gossipy rhetorical flourishes aside, Silliman's history is worth pondering. Here's a small sample of his taste in action: "It should be obvious that many SoQ poets are talented ?- Lowell, Berryman, Plath, Roethke, just to keep to that generation, all qualify. But if you put them alongside of the New York School poets of that same period (the NAP tendency they were "most like"), these same Brahmins strike me as klutzy and a little sad, operating as they did within literary constraints that really functioned as blinders. Reading Life Studies is like going through Frank O?Hara?s Lunch Poems on Quaaludes. Lowell?s synapses in his poems are like a Jim Carrey impression of slow motion. This doesn?t mean that he wasn?t enormously gifted. But it does mean that mostly he wasted it. If only he had had a Pound to edit his work, as Ezra did a generation earlier for T.S. Eliot, the ultimate Anglophile." --Ron Silliman --------------------- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Apr 11 11:18:31 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:18:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050411101706.02cefcc0@mail.ilstu.edu> I have a sense it might be Franz Wright, only because I've seen another nasty letter by him published once in CONDUIT, a mag out of Mnpls that publishes letters now and then. It was snide and put-downy. GG At 09:29 AM 4/11/2005, David Graham wrote: >Ron Silliman's blog today features a lengthy rumination on his favorite >put-down term, The School of Quietude. The most fleshed-out explanation >I've seen of this obviously controversial notion. > >http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > >He begins with a curve-ball, quoting a silly bit of hate mail he received >from a "relatively recent" winner of the Pulitzer. He doesn't say what >might have prompted the note (did RS perhaps express an *opinion* of this >poet's work?), and I'm not about to go investigate. But let the speculation >begin! Was it Franz Wright? Stephen Dunn? C. K. Wright? > >But gossipy rhetorical flourishes aside, Silliman's history is worth >pondering. Here's a small sample of his taste in action: > >"It should be obvious that many SoQ poets are talented ?- Lowell, Berryman, >Plath, Roethke, just to keep to that generation, all qualify. But if you put >them alongside of the New York School poets of that same period (the NAP >tendency they were "most like"), these same Brahmins strike me as klutzy and >a little sad, operating as they did within literary constraints that really >functioned as blinders. Reading Life Studies is like going through Frank >O?Hara?s Lunch Poems on Quaaludes. Lowell?s synapses in his poems are like a >Jim Carrey impression of slow motion. This doesn?t mean that he wasn?t >enormously gifted. But it does mean that mostly he wasted it. If only he had >had a Pound to edit his work, as Ezra did a generation earlier for T.S. >Eliot, the ultimate Anglophile." > >--Ron Silliman >--------------------- > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 11 11:52:52 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:52:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes References: Message-ID: <000c01c53eae$878ec700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Frank O'Hara on qaaludes? I-yi-yi. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:29 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes Ron Silliman's blog today features a lengthy rumination on his favorite put-down term, The School of Quietude. The most fleshed-out explanation I've seen of this obviously controversial notion. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ He begins with a curve-ball, quoting a silly bit of hate mail he received from a "relatively recent" winner of the Pulitzer. He doesn't say what might have prompted the note (did RS perhaps express an *opinion* of this poet's work?), and I'm not about to go investigate. But let the speculation begin! Was it Franz Wright? Stephen Dunn? C. K. Wright? But gossipy rhetorical flourishes aside, Silliman's history is worth pondering. Here's a small sample of his taste in action: "It should be obvious that many SoQ poets are talented ?- Lowell, Berryman, Plath, Roethke, just to keep to that generation, all qualify. But if you put them alongside of the New York School poets of that same period (the NAP tendency they were "most like"), these same Brahmins strike me as klutzy and a little sad, operating as they did within literary constraints that really functioned as blinders. Reading Life Studies is like going through Frank O?Hara?s Lunch Poems on Quaaludes. Lowell?s synapses in his poems are like a Jim Carrey impression of slow motion. This doesn?t mean that he wasn?t enormously gifted. But it does mean that mostly he wasted it. If only he had had a Pound to edit his work, as Ezra did a generation earlier for T.S. Eliot, the ultimate Anglophile." --Ron Silliman --------------------- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mac.com Mon Apr 11 12:58:46 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:58:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6123178.1113238726384.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Monday, April 11, 2005, at 10:29AM, David Graham wrote: >Ron Silliman's blog today features a lengthy rumination on his favorite >put-down term, The School of Quietude. The most fleshed-out explanation >I've seen of this obviously controversial notion. > >http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > >He begins with a curve-ball, quoting a silly bit of hate mail he received >from a "relatively recent" winner of the Pulitzer. He doesn't say what >might have prompted the note (did RS perhaps express an *opinion* of this >poet's work?), and I'm not about to go investigate. But let the speculation >begin! Was it Franz Wright? Stephen Dunn? C. K. Wright? > >But gossipy rhetorical flourishes aside, Silliman's history is worth >pondering. Here's a small sample of his taste in action: > >"It should be obvious that many SoQ poets are talented ?- Lowell, Berryman, >Plath, Roethke, just to keep to that generation, all qualify. But if you put >them alongside of the New York School poets of that same period (the NAP >tendency they were "most like"), these same Brahmins strike me as klutzy and >a little sad, operating as they did within literary constraints that really >functioned as blinders. Reading Life Studies is like going through Frank >O?Hara?s Lunch Poems on Quaaludes. Lowell?s synapses in his poems are like a >Jim Carrey impression of slow motion. This doesn?t mean that he wasn?t >enormously gifted. But it does mean that mostly he wasted it. If only he had >had a Pound to edit his work, as Ezra did a generation earlier for T.S. >Eliot, the ultimate Anglophile." > >--Ron Silliman >--------------------- > > "Behold the School of Quietude!" Cries Silliman, but no one's there To front his fiery attitude -- A name is sometimes just hot air. And what conclusion might be drawn? He leads the School of Phlogiston. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Apr 11 14:19:53 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:19:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes Message-ID: <3892467.1113243593637.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Ah yes, Poesy formalis et freeversio americani homo schola placidus. - Jim p.s. - Isn't April 15th Taxonomy day? -----Original Message----- From: The Old Mole Sent: Apr 11, 2005 8:52 AM To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes Frank O'Hara on qaaludes? I-yi-yi. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:29 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes Ron Silliman's blog today features a lengthy rumination on his favorite put-down term, The School of Quietude. The most fleshed-out explanation I've seen of this obviously controversial notion. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ He begins with a curve-ball, quoting a silly bit of hate mail he received from a "relatively recent" winner of the Pulitzer. He doesn't say what might have prompted the note (did RS perhaps express an *opinion* of this poet's work?), and I'm not about to go investigate. But let the speculation begin! Was it Franz Wright? Stephen Dunn? C. K. Wright? But gossipy rhetorical flourishes aside, Silliman's history is worth pondering. Here's a small sample of his taste in action: "It should be obvious that many SoQ poets are talented ???- Lowell, Berryman, Plath, Roethke, just to keep to that generation, all qualify. But if you put them alongside of the New York School poets of that same period (the NAP tendency they were "most like"), these same Brahmins strike me as klutzy and a little sad, operating as they did within literary constraints that really functioned as blinders. Reading Life Studies is like going through Frank O???Hara???s Lunch Poems on Quaaludes. Lowell???s synapses in his poems are like a Jim Carrey impression of slow motion. This doesn???t mean that he wasn???t enormously gifted. But it does mean that mostly he wasted it. If only he had had a Pound to edit his work, as Ezra did a generation earlier for T.S. Eliot, the ultimate Anglophile." --Ron Silliman --------------------- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 11 06:30:10 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:30:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Letter from a former art student regarding progressivepolitics References: Message-ID: <008901c53ec8$5ddf1710$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Letter from a former art student regarding progressiveI received this exposition recently from someone who has given up on the hippest of the hip art scene. He isn't a bad painter, in my view, although restricted to traditional landscapes, for the most part. He could exhibit at the Wally Findlay gallery, in my opinion, on Worth Avenue, but not with Mary Boone. I doubt the people on this list would find his work very interesting. In any case, his disillusionment with the political scene in places like the East Village, as he answers my inquiry regarding what he went through long ago in his Cafe Orlin days, may prove instructive to some readers who are baffled as to why glib and profane anti-Pope writings, for instance, are apparently believed to be profound by some here and elsewhere. I'm leaving off his name but will give it to those inclined to ask backchannel. I know that some people would advise him to loosen up a little. The reader may discount what he says as being sour grapes, but I think there is something here of value. R i c h a r d D i l l o n ELEMENOPE Productions At that time I was still childish enough to try to make the madness of their doctrine clear to them; in my little circle I talked my tongue sore and my throat hoarse, thinking I would inevitably succeed in convincing them how ruinous their Marxist madness was; but what I accomplished was often the opposite. It seemed as though their increased understanding of the destructive effects of radically liberal Utopianistic theories and their results only reinforced their determination. The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The pseudo-intellectual had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day. Gosh, Richard, I can't figure out the relevance of this. Certainly it can't pertain to anyone at New-Poetry! --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 11 15:15:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:15:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] School of Quiet Dudes References: Message-ID: <00d401c53eca$d17181c0$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Ron Silliman's blog today features a lengthy rumination on his favorite > put-down term, The School of Quietude. The most fleshed-out explanation > I've seen of this obviously controversial notion. > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > He begins with a curve-ball, quoting a silly bit of hate mail he received > from a "relatively recent" winner of the Pulitzer. He doesn't say what > might have prompted the note (did RS perhaps express an *opinion* of this > poet's work?), and I'm not about to go investigate. But let the > speculation > begin! Was it Franz Wright? Stephen Dunn? C. K. Wright? Isn't Wright the only certified poet who would ever deign to exchange views, or hostilities, with anyone as little truly certified as even Silliman is? > But gossipy rhetorical flourishes aside, Silliman's history is worth > pondering. Here's a small sample of his taste in action: > > "It should be obvious that many SoQ poets are talented ?- Lowell, > Berryman, > Plath, Roethke, just to keep to that generation, all qualify. But if you > put > them alongside of the New York School poets of that same period (the NAP > tendency they were "most like"), these same Brahmins strike me as klutzy > and > a little sad, operating as they did within literary constraints that > really > functioned as blinders. Reading Life Studies is like going through Frank > O?Hara?s Lunch Poems on Quaaludes. Lowell?s synapses in his poems are like > a > Jim Carrey impression of slow motion. This doesn?t mean that he wasn?t > enormously gifted. But it does mean that mostly he wasted it. If only he > had > had a Pound to edit his work, as Ezra did a generation earlier for T.S. > Eliot, the ultimate Anglophile." > > --Ron Silliman I would love to see an essay by anyone on the speed of synapses. I'm certainly with the queituders versus the NY School. In fact, I think I'm probably in the quietude school myself. Don't know enough about what Ron means by it to be sure. Actually, I think that the only time O'Hara, Ashbery and company are worth reading is when their chatter breaks into the Wordsworthian high quietude that I think all the best poetry does. --Bob G. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 12 01:55:28 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:55:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art In-Reply-To: <00d401c53eca$d17181c0$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <00d401c53eca$d17181c0$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050412004727.02c28f18@mail.ilstu.edu> From Lisa Jarnot to W. D. Snodgrass -- http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 12 06:45:52 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 06:45:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <00d401c53eca$d17181c0$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <6.0.3.0.2.20050412004727.02c28f18@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <004201c53f4c$ccd82970$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > From Lisa Jarnot to W. D. Snodgrass -- Exactly--Wilshberia, with a sprinkling of newly-certified language poets added. Right, Barry, my reaction is sour grapes entirely. Sounds like an interesting book, though. . . . Gudding's review is amusing. He knows better than Wilbur what books most influenced him. The list of poets whose books most influenced this section of Wilshberia is interesting. Ten to one, Cummings wasn't mentioned once. Fascinating topic, one I now think I may start writing about in my blog. My problem would be thinking of books that did not shape my art. The Bible would be one. It was the one these poets most mentioned as one that shaped their art. All right, I'm sure even the Bible has influenced me, though certainly not significantly. Quite a few books I've never read have, as well. Fascinating topic. . . . --Bob G. From clitophon at yahoo.com Tue Apr 12 07:23:12 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 04:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050412112312.47589.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> what about Shakespeare, Dante, Homer, Longinus, The Dandy (??), Dennis the Menace and Gnasher (??), The Hair Bears, Hong Kong Phooey (does anyone remember what HKP real name was? I bet no one can answer this one and if you can win a can or real ale...)PM --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > From Lisa Jarnot to W. D. Snodgrass -- > > Exactly--Wilshberia, with a sprinkling of > newly-certified language poets > added. Right, Barry, my reaction is sour grapes > entirely. Sounds like an > interesting book, though. . . . > > Gudding's review is amusing. He knows better than > Wilbur what books most > influenced him. The list of poets whose books most > influenced this section > of Wilshberia is interesting. Ten to one, Cummings > wasn't mentioned once. > Fascinating topic, one I now think I may start > writing about in my blog. My > problem would be thinking of books that did not > shape my art. The Bible > would be one. It was the one these poets most > mentioned as one that shaped > their art. All right, I'm sure even the Bible has > influenced me, though > certainly not significantly. Quite a few books I've > never read have, as > well. Fascinating topic. . . . > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From bardo at optonline.net Tue Apr 12 08:22:35 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:22:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <20050412112312.47589.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006f01c53f5a$4f486c00$3a95c044@MULDER> Pen Pooch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > what about Shakespeare, Dante, Homer, Longinus, The > Dandy (??), Dennis the Menace and Gnasher (??), The > Hair Bears, Hong Kong Phooey (does anyone remember > what HKP real name was? I bet no one can answer this > one and if you can win a can or real ale...)PM > --- Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> >> > From Lisa Jarnot to W. D. Snodgrass -- >> >> Exactly--Wilshberia, with a sprinkling of >> newly-certified language poets >> added. Right, Barry, my reaction is sour grapes >> entirely. Sounds like an >> interesting book, though. . . . >> >> Gudding's review is amusing. He knows better than >> Wilbur what books most >> influenced him. The list of poets whose books most >> influenced this section >> of Wilshberia is interesting. Ten to one, Cummings >> wasn't mentioned once. >> Fascinating topic, one I now think I may start >> writing about in my blog. My >> problem would be thinking of books that did not >> shape my art. The Bible >> would be one. It was the one these poets most >> mentioned as one that shaped >> their art. All right, I'm sure even the Bible has >> influenced me, though >> certainly not significantly. Quite a few books I've >> never read have, as >> well. Fascinating topic. . . . >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Tue Apr 12 09:01:43 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:01:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <00d401c53eca$d17181c0$7ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><6.0.3.0.2.20050412004727.02c28f18@mail.ilstu.edu> <004201c53f4c$ccd82970$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002401c53f5f$ca075b90$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I thought Wilbur's choice of Turco was odd for a different reason. I don't have any problem with being influenced by The New Book of Forms, but hadn't Wilbur been writing for a while before it came out? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > > >> From Lisa Jarnot to W. D. Snodgrass -- > > Exactly--Wilshberia, with a sprinkling of newly-certified language poets > added. Right, Barry, my reaction is sour grapes entirely. Sounds like an > interesting book, though. . . . > > Gudding's review is amusing. He knows better than Wilbur what books most > influenced him. The list of poets whose books most influenced this > section of Wilshberia is interesting. Ten to one, Cummings wasn't > mentioned once. Fascinating topic, one I now think I may start writing > about in my blog. My problem would be thinking of books that did not > shape my art. The Bible would be one. It was the one these poets most > mentioned as one that shaped their art. All right, I'm sure even the > Bible has influenced me, though certainly not significantly. Quite a few > books I've never read have, as well. Fascinating topic. . . . > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Tue Apr 12 09:02:34 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:02:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <20050412112312.47589.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002701c53f5f$e7840880$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> I should remember, because I watch it with my grandson on Boomerang. I know he was the janitor. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > what about Shakespeare, Dante, Homer, Longinus, The > Dandy (??), Dennis the Menace and Gnasher (??), The > Hair Bears, Hong Kong Phooey (does anyone remember > what HKP real name was? I bet no one can answer this > one and if you can win a can or real ale...)PM > --- Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> >> > From Lisa Jarnot to W. D. Snodgrass -- >> >> Exactly--Wilshberia, with a sprinkling of >> newly-certified language poets >> added. Right, Barry, my reaction is sour grapes >> entirely. Sounds like an >> interesting book, though. . . . >> >> Gudding's review is amusing. He knows better than >> Wilbur what books most >> influenced him. The list of poets whose books most >> influenced this section >> of Wilshberia is interesting. Ten to one, Cummings >> wasn't mentioned once. >> Fascinating topic, one I now think I may start >> writing about in my blog. My >> problem would be thinking of books that did not >> shape my art. The Bible >> would be one. It was the one these poets most >> mentioned as one that shaped >> their art. All right, I'm sure even the Bible has >> influenced me, though >> certainly not significantly. Quite a few books I've >> never read have, as >> well. Fascinating topic. . . . >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From clitophon at yahoo.com Tue Apr 12 09:17:26 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 06:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050412131726.70755.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Penry short for Penrod. I think this is a strange archaism and sophistication for a cartoon but then you just don't know how many Derridean-type Deconstructionists were working on this. It's quite obvious that they thought they were artists and beneath this kitsch. PM --- The Old Mole wrote: > I should remember, because I watch it with my > grandson on Boomerang. I know > he was the janitor. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Murphy" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:23 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on > Books That Shaped Their > Art > > > > what about Shakespeare, Dante, Homer, Longinus, > The > > Dandy (??), Dennis the Menace and Gnasher (??), > The > > Hair Bears, Hong Kong Phooey (does anyone remember > > what HKP real name was? I bet no one can answer > this > > one and if you can win a can or real ale...)PM > > --- Bob Grumman wrote: > >> > >> > >> > From Lisa Jarnot to W. D. Snodgrass -- > >> > >> Exactly--Wilshberia, with a sprinkling of > >> newly-certified language poets > >> added. Right, Barry, my reaction is sour grapes > >> entirely. Sounds like an > >> interesting book, though. . . . > >> > >> Gudding's review is amusing. He knows better > than > >> Wilbur what books most > >> influenced him. The list of poets whose books > most > >> influenced this section > >> of Wilshberia is interesting. Ten to one, > Cummings > >> wasn't mentioned once. > >> Fascinating topic, one I now think I may start > >> writing about in my blog. My > >> problem would be thinking of books that did not > >> shape my art. The Bible > >> would be one. It was the one these poets most > >> mentioned as one that shaped > >> their art. All right, I'm sure even the Bible > has > >> influenced me, though > >> certainly not significantly. Quite a few books > I've > >> never read have, as > >> well. Fascinating topic. . . . > >> > >> --Bob G. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 12 11:11:09 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:11:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art In-Reply-To: <20050412131726.70755.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050412131726.70755.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14662621.1113318670187.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Thanks for posting this, Gabriel. I've ordered a copy. About Wilbur and Lew Turco's Book of Forms: Wilbur had already won a Pulitzer by the time the book came out, but I can easily imagine that Wilbur's later use of syllabic lines owed something to the world of possibilities Turco points to, especially all those Welsh and Irish rhymed syllabics. Any poet interested in audible form can learn from Turco -- I've still got my little garish red paperback, and it's a rare week when I don't at least open it. I met Lew in the late 70s, and, after reading my very first (godawful) sonnet, he said "You're a pretty literary guy, aren't you?" It was the perfect thing to say to me, but it wasn't a compliment. So one of my most treasured compliments came when last year he said "That's a great awdl gywydd!" about this: Arse Poetica Full of myself as I was I told a dozen bold lies About my poems while she Sat by me. I watched her thighs Cross and uncross and I thought "She's really hot for me," dead Sure when she stood up she'd take Me, she'd break my back in bed, And I'd break her yearning heart With my magic art and deft, Hard, heavy penis. She yawned, "I ain't so fond of fools." And left. I think I may have posted this poem here before -- if so, I apologize. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From tad at opus40.org Tue Apr 12 11:30:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:30:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <20050412131726.70755.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <14662621.1113318670187.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <00af01c53f74$9ee6a8c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Lew was at Iowa a few years before I was. He had the reputation there that I inherited - as the most outrageous punster. So when we finally met, at an MLA conference, there was the air of two legendary gunfighters meeting on a Western street. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > > Thanks for posting this, Gabriel. I've ordered a copy. > > About Wilbur and Lew Turco's Book of Forms: Wilbur had already won a > Pulitzer by the time the book came out, but I can easily imagine that > Wilbur's later use of syllabic lines owed something to the world of > possibilities Turco points to, especially all those Welsh and Irish rhymed > syllabics. > > Any poet interested in audible form can learn from Turco -- I've still got > my little garish red paperback, and it's a rare week when I don't at least > open it. I met Lew in the late 70s, and, after reading my very first > (godawful) sonnet, he said "You're a pretty literary guy, aren't you?" It > was the perfect thing to say to me, but it wasn't a compliment. So one of > my most treasured compliments came when last year he said "That's a great > awdl gywydd!" about this: > > Arse Poetica > > > Full of myself as I was > I told a dozen bold lies > About my poems while she > Sat by me. I watched her thighs > > Cross and uncross and I thought > "She's really hot for me," dead > Sure when she stood up she'd take > Me, she'd break my back in bed, > > And I'd break her yearning heart > With my magic art and deft, > Hard, heavy penis. She yawned, > "I ain't so fond of fools." And left. > > > I think I may have posted this poem here before -- if so, I apologize. > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Tue Apr 12 11:32:06 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:32:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <20050412131726.70755.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> <14662621.1113318670187.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <00b201c53f74$cbc6d950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> You have. Liked it the first time, liked it the second. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Snider" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > > Thanks for posting this, Gabriel. I've ordered a copy. > > About Wilbur and Lew Turco's Book of Forms: Wilbur had already won a > Pulitzer by the time the book came out, but I can easily imagine that > Wilbur's later use of syllabic lines owed something to the world of > possibilities Turco points to, especially all those Welsh and Irish rhymed > syllabics. > > Any poet interested in audible form can learn from Turco -- I've still got > my little garish red paperback, and it's a rare week when I don't at least > open it. I met Lew in the late 70s, and, after reading my very first > (godawful) sonnet, he said "You're a pretty literary guy, aren't you?" It > was the perfect thing to say to me, but it wasn't a compliment. So one of > my most treasured compliments came when last year he said "That's a great > awdl gywydd!" about this: > > Arse Poetica > > > Full of myself as I was > I told a dozen bold lies > About my poems while she > Sat by me. I watched her thighs > > Cross and uncross and I thought > "She's really hot for me," dead > Sure when she stood up she'd take > Me, she'd break my back in bed, > > And I'd break her yearning heart > With my magic art and deft, > Hard, heavy penis. She yawned, > "I ain't so fond of fools." And left. > > > I think I may have posted this poem here before -- if so, I apologize. > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From kazmandu at aol.com Tue Apr 12 11:55:42 2005 From: kazmandu at aol.com (kazmandu at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:55:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pluralaesthetics In-Reply-To: <200504101427.j3AERC0t030441@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200504101427.j3AERC0t030441@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8C70D8F37579A9F-A48-208B0@mblk-r41.sysops.aol.com> Bob said: > ... Why won't you take my word for it that one who > writes about what I call pluraesthetic art needs a special word for > those who interact with that kind of art, and do not simply read it, > or simply look at it. Marcus said: Because all art is pluraesthetic, and we've gotten along without definitions that directly contradict themselves in their definitions for thousands of years. Definitions that directly contradict themselves are worthless as definitions, and the words they define cannot be reasonably used. Either do better on your definitions or give it up. I enter into this bad karma loop with apprehension but Marcus has touched on something I feel is important especially in my work. Its true that there are many aesthetic shades of gray in any one particular field of art and more pronounced shades of gray in the arts as a whole. But what I believe Bob to be talking about is not the many shades of gray in the arts as he is by talking about fusing the aesthetics of Mathematics and the aesthetics of art (writing). These are to completely separate aesthetic systems. Let me try to point out some of these differences. Many say mathematical truths are discovered and artistic truths are mediated. Mathematicians generally agree on what is mathematically correct. Artists generally have no idea what is artistically correct. Math illuminates the supportive skeletal structure of thought whereas art is the metaphoric wind that blows through that structure Mathematical aesthetics is concerned almost exclusively with the light forms of beauty and wonder. The art of aesthetics is concerned with wonder in forms of light, dark and everything in between. Math generally has no intention for the expression of humor Pure mathematics has no expression for metaphor (although an asymptote could be considered a proper structure to carry metaphor ??structure? is the key word) Pure mathematics has no expression for culture and Art is the expression of culture. (Cultures can pick specific areas of mathematics to study but in general German mathematics is no different than Chinese) Metaphor in essence lies in a state of logically tension. --example: He runs like a deer is a simile. He is a deer is a metaphor. To many minds this is total nonsense because we all know he is a human not a deer. Mathematical equations are logically perfect and used almost exclusively for denotation. The intentions of physics equations are for simile not metaphor. However when you put words that don?t quite make sense into an equation you force the equation out of the realm of denotation and into the realm of connotation. I find this very exciting and inspirational. In my own work I use physics equations as logical template or paradigm to which I then infuse metaphors into the variables to express my art. Thus I am interested in mixing the aesthetics of art, poetry and mathematics into a synergistic expression --- I have called it polyaesthetic but Bob calls it pluralaesthetic it makes no difference, it is the same thing. Kaz Maslanka http://www.kazmaslanka.com/kaz_maslanka_art_from_1990_to_2000.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Tue Apr 12 17:44:59 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:44:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art Message-ID: Sounds like an interesting book, and I'm glad to see that Gabe is in there. I can't wait to see what he says, exactly, since what books could have helped bring about the poems in A Defense of Poetry? They are sui generis in their bizarro-world qualities. However, I must say I wonder about the more or less self-congratulatory assumptions behind the nature of such an anthology [...That Shaped Their Art... O! Muses! Grecian Urn!]. For I believe most poets do know, deep in the darkest and truest chambers of their hearts, that they are selfish, mean, spiteful, back-stabbing, childish, and generally worm-like beings who have chosen a way life that leads, in the main, to loss and despair, not to mention confusion and hurt for nearly everyone around them, including children and pets. (This is especially true of that wing of American poetry known as the "post-avant.") And they know, too (poets, I mean), and secretly, that what they do as "ART" is of much inferior worth to the world than, for example, radio astronomy, or particle physics, or cancer research, or architecture. Actually, the realization of this ontological "lesserness" is the deeper impetus, I suspect, of Gabe's astonishing, visceral poetic violence toward innocent beings like dolphins or peacocks: It is unmediated projection of primal rage, pure libidinal energy of the first power, and it is what makes Gabe's poems so interesting and frightening. The other day, Gabe wrote to me and he said this: "oh MY GOD: there's a funeral procession outside my apartment window!!! aND somehow a huge furniture truck got stuck in middle of it. Life should stop it.!" This quote, including its carefully controlled typos, illustrates another aspect of Gabe Gudding's disturbed personality which I will comment on in a future email. I probably shouldn't have interrupted the train of my thought by inserting it, but I am typing quickly here. To continue, then... So let's be honest. Our "ART" is a portal to Hell. You twenty-somethings might not yet realize it. But just wait... Get ye to Paris or to some kind of prestigious MFA program before too long, and get there while you can still walk the streets like Gerald Stern and Jack Gilbert on the cover of The Red Coal and feel like you are superior and that your lives mean something. It is a good feeling while it lasts. But Reality comes on cat's paws and in the night. As for me, I am going to put together an abstract now for an anthology of brief essays titled: 84 Poets on the Poems that Utterly Fucked Up Their Lives. Kent From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 18:20:30 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:20:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "My Last Trauma" Message-ID: My Last Trauma That?s my last trauma painted on the wall, waiting for the frozen ground swell . . . no, the swell frozen ground . . . no, wait . . . waiting for the swelling in my ankle to go down. I fell in love with an arm- load of her books and twisted my right ankle badly (would I?d done it well). At first I thought I was falling toward the east, but then fell south instead. Wearing hiking boots saved me though. For all of that, I?m not ?against interpretation,? as one might say I am who does not know my mind as well as I do, so all in all the fall was fine. I fell but did not ?fall? (too Oprah-ish to say, some said, e?en though I?d done two autobios? worth of living. Some whispered, ?Salinger,? tossing back their Thorazine cock- tails, leaving the rest of us sunk in silent medication. I too refuse to die, the only linkage between the two of us, refuse, as, uh, the writing shoves itself out between my legs, one sex, uh, one hole or another and swollen holes, penises, aureoles, vaginas, asses, complexions, fingernails, cuticles, hair, breasts held perfectly in place, nipples always erect. America produces erections; sex love of Viagra- chemical love. Taking Viagra, a singular and misshapen element or entity. The signature of our sex: typical; other than liquidity, a sign of the dreams to come, there was the uncanny. The body floods into control sites, partial determinations, but no woman yet who?d willingly suck an eighty- year-old cock. The control sites hold it at the origin. One can recite one's day in either medium or large renditions. --Halvard Johnson (Inspired by/based on recent email messages by Will Hochman, Valentine Smith, and Alan Sondheim, along with a bit of a Chris Rock monologue) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 12 18:50:16 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:50:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: Message-ID: <000001c53fbc$93e5f550$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> One definition of a philistine in literature is a person who thinks cancer research or the like is more important than poetry. --Bob G. From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 21:34:22 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:34:22 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art Message-ID: <200504130012.j3D0AfOC265320@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> and a definition of a philistine in life is a person who thinks cancer research or the like is less important than poetry. Chris ---------- >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art >Date: Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 2:50 PM > > One definition of a philistine in literature is a person who thinks cancer > research or the like is more important than poetry. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 12 20:16:29 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:16:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <000001c53fbc$93e5f550$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <012701c53fbe$0ac165f0$f09c9951@Robin> > One definition of a philistine in literature is a person who thinks cancer > research or the like is more important than poetry. > > --Bob G. Right -- it's not simply trying to compare apples and oranges, but apes and bananas. Isn't there a word for that particular rhetorical trick -- The Devil's Fork, or something? (Surely you know, Bob -- nah?) For some reason, Kent's comment reminds me of the old joke where a wee boy is told by his mummy to eat his greens: "Think of the 30 Million Starving Chinese who'd be grateful for that" -- "Name one." Robin From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 12 20:19:52 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:19:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Off to Yuma AZ Message-ID: <48f45fe1dcfa60827461253003e9333f@mac.com> For 3 days -- a business trip, but I'm free Friday night. Does anyone know anything about the poetry or acoustic music scenes there? All tips appreciated! Mike S. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 12 20:29:53 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:29:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <000001c53fbc$93e5f550$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <012701c53fbe$0ac165f0$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <013901c53fbf$e9f55500$f09c9951@Robin> > Isn't there a word for that particular rhetorical trick -- The Devil's Fork, > or something? > > (Surely you know, Bob -- nah?) To reply to myself ... Not quite the Either/Or Fallacy, but something like that. C'mon people, surely there must be a real snazzy snappy term for the tired rhetorical trick Kent was playing in his post. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 12 21:23:18 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:23:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <200504130012.j3D0AfOC265320@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <005101c53fc7$60400fa0$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > and a definition of a philistine in life is a person who thinks > cancer research or the like is less important than poetry. > > Chris Possibly. I would call such a person a philistine in survival, though--he fails properly to recognize the value of survival compared with the value of meaningfulness. Not that he necessarily rates the latter value higher than the former. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 12 21:26:30 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:26:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <000001c53fbc$93e5f550$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <012701c53fbe$0ac165f0$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <005601c53fc7$d2a026c0$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> One definition of a philistine in literature is a person who thinks >> cancer >> research or the like is more important than poetry. >> >> --Bob G. > > Right -- it's not simply trying to compare apples and oranges, but apes > and > bananas. > > Isn't there a word for that particular rhetorical trick -- The Devil's > Fork, > or something? > > (Surely you know, Bob -- nah?) Sounds good. I think I've even seen the term but can't say for sure. > For some reason, Kent's comment reminds me of the old joke where a wee boy > is told by his mummy to eat his greens: "Think of the 30 Million Starving > Chinese who'd be grateful for that" -- "Name one." > > Robin Yes. Bobbin From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Apr 12 21:35:08 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 02:35:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art In-Reply-To: <013901c53fbf$e9f55500$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: Have a look here: http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htm It's a lovely site. P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Robin Hamilton > Sent: 13 April 2005 01:30 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > > > Isn't there a word for that particular rhetorical trick -- > The Devil's > Fork, > > or something? > > > > (Surely you know, Bob -- nah?) > > To reply to myself ... > > Not quite the Either/Or Fallacy, but something like that. > > C'mon people, surely there must be a real snazzy snappy term > for the tired rhetorical trick Kent was playing in his post. > > Robin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 12 21:34:05 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:34:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <000001c53fbc$93e5f550$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><012701c53fbe$0ac165f0$f09c9951@Robin> <013901c53fbf$e9f55500$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <005d01c53fc8$e19a6bd0$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Isn't there a word for that particular rhetorical trick -- The Devil's > Fork, >> or something? >> >> (Surely you know, Bob -- nah?) > > To reply to myself ... > > Not quite the Either/Or Fallacy, but something like that. > > C'mon people, surely there must be a real snazzy snappy term for the tired > rhetorical trick Kent was playing in his post. > > Robin Doesn't seem a rhetorical trick to me, Robin. He's just revealing his wonderful heart by stating that lengthening life is more important than making poems--which I'm sure he believes. All I can say is that if I thought that, I sure wouldn't be making, or trying to make, poems. I would hope that everyone is lucky enough to be doing something he thinks as important as (albeit not necessarily MORE important than) anything else anyone is doing. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Tue Apr 12 21:35:48 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:35:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Off to Yuma AZ References: <48f45fe1dcfa60827461253003e9333f@mac.com> Message-ID: <003b01c53fc9$21a90ab0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> GHOST TOWN He highballs into Yuma and the desert is looking at him, its dry eyes sizing him up not saying where she is, but howling her name contrapuntally against chants, rattles, the wheeze of old metal until he would have been the grit in doorways, between layers of clothing, any irritant To adhere where she might come -- but that's probably no help. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: "New Poetry" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:19 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Off to Yuma AZ > For 3 days -- a business trip, but I'm free Friday night. Does anyone > know anything about the poetry or acoustic music scenes there? > > All tips appreciated! > > Mike S. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 12 22:02:30 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:02:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Off to Yuma AZ In-Reply-To: <003b01c53fc9$21a90ab0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <48f45fe1dcfa60827461253003e9333f@mac.com> <003b01c53fc9$21a90ab0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <187336cc3cbaaef8708aa72efc6feb4c@mac.com> On Apr 12, 2005, at 9:35 PM, The Old Mole wrote: > GHOST TOWN > > He highballs into Yuma and > > > the desert is looking at him, > its dry eyes sizing him up > not saying where she is, > > but howling her name > contrapuntally against chants, > rattles, the wheeze of old metal > > until he would have been the grit > in doorways, between layers > of clothing, any irritant > > To adhere where she might come > > > > -- but that's probably no help. > > > Tad Richards I dunno, Tad -- if I were single it might be real useful in certain circumstances ... but I likes anyway best, Mike S From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 12 22:20:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 03:20:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <000001c53fbc$93e5f550$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><012701c53fbe$0ac165f0$f09c9951@Robin><013901c53fbf$e9f55500$f09c9951@Robin> <005d01c53fc8$e19a6bd0$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <018801c53fcf$6ab4a150$f09c9951@Robin> > > C'mon people, surely there must be a real snazzy snappy term for the tired > > rhetorical trick Kent was playing in his post. > > > > Robin > > Doesn't seem a rhetorical trick to me, Robin. He's just revealing his > wonderful heart by stating that lengthening life is more important than > making poems--which I'm sure he believes. Yeah, Bob, but most of us grew out of this in our twenties. If you say it when you're twenty, you're sincere, if you still say it when you're forty it's a rhetorical trick. There are apparently six billion people alive in the world as of this moment, and damn few of them even have the *chance* to decide whether to be poets or astrophysicists or AIDs researchers. So it's in many ways a non-choice. Also, most (not all) astrophysicists and cancer researchers and the rest do this mostly because that's what they like doing (and/or are good at it) and get paid for it. Oh, I could go on and on and ON, but just one small point. Who the hell among us makes their *living* from writing poetry? We do it as well as whatever our day-job is, astrophyscists or university lecturers in the humanities or nurses or simply on the dole. So writing poetry isn't an easy sell-out. Basically it takes time which the astrophysicist or whosoever could spend watching a ball game. At least poets are pretty harmless in the scheme of things, and they do some good in their own sphere, which is more than can be said for many avocations and professions. When I was about twenty, I saw a play at the Glasgow Citz by Paul Ableman, "Green Julia", that had a line that carved itself into my psyche -- "Johann Sebastian Mendel was a useful man." If you end up simply not hurting others, you're already ahead of the game. Too late at night for me to make sense. Robin From bardo at optonline.net Tue Apr 12 22:31:08 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:31:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: Message-ID: <00db01c53fd0$d9927a10$3a95c044@MULDER> Right, Kent: & non-content is never more than an extension of norm. ~ Dan Zimmerman, author of Post-Avant (Pavement Saw Press, 2002). PS: I named two new fundamental forces of the universe a few years ago-- (Hail & Farewell)--in a Science News letter to the editor just before scientists proved them illusory (a fate better than death?). For me, of course, they remain as real as gravity and electromagnetism, and more real than the strong and weak forces. Their 'discoverers' believed they acted over distances of many yards (the attractive force I called Hail) and over only a few yards (the repelling force I called Farewell). I believe this illustrates the version of Creeley's dictum I've proposed above. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 5:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > Sounds like an interesting book, and I'm glad to see that Gabe is in > there. I can't wait to see what he says, exactly, since what books could > have helped bring about the poems in A Defense of Poetry? They are sui > generis in their bizarro-world qualities. > > However, I must say I wonder about the more or less self-congratulatory > assumptions behind the nature of such an anthology [...That Shaped Their > Art... O! Muses! Grecian Urn!]. For I believe most poets do know, deep > in the darkest and truest chambers of their hearts, that they are > selfish, mean, spiteful, back-stabbing, childish, and generally > worm-like beings who have chosen a way life that leads, in the main, to > loss and despair, not to mention confusion and hurt for nearly everyone > around them, including children and pets. (This is especially true of > that wing of American poetry known as the "post-avant.") And they know, > too (poets, I mean), and secretly, that what they do as "ART" is of much > inferior worth to the world than, for example, radio astronomy, or > particle physics, or cancer research, or architecture. Actually, the > realization of this ontological "lesserness" is the deeper impetus, I > suspect, of Gabe's astonishing, visceral poetic violence toward innocent > beings like dolphins or peacocks: It is unmediated projection of primal > rage, pure libidinal energy of the first power, and it is what makes > Gabe's poems so interesting and frightening. > > The other day, Gabe wrote to me and he said this: > > "oh MY GOD: there's a funeral procession outside my apartment window!!! > aND somehow a huge furniture truck got stuck in middle of it. Life > should stop it.!" > > This quote, including its carefully controlled typos, illustrates > another aspect of Gabe Gudding's disturbed personality which I will > comment on in a future email. I probably shouldn't have interrupted the > train of my thought by inserting it, but I am typing quickly here. To > continue, then... > > So let's be honest. Our "ART" is a portal to Hell. You > twenty-somethings might not yet realize it. But just wait... Get ye to > Paris or to some kind of prestigious MFA program before too long, and > get there while you can still walk the streets like Gerald Stern and > Jack Gilbert on the cover of The Red Coal and feel like you are superior > and that your lives mean something. It is a good feeling while it lasts. > But Reality comes on cat's paws and in the night. > > As for me, I am going to put together an abstract now for an anthology > of brief essays titled: > > 84 Poets on the Poems that Utterly Fucked Up Their Lives. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From debra at debradicembre.com Tue Apr 12 23:27:48 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:27:48 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <20050412131726.70755.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com><14662621.1113318670187.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <00b201c53f74$cbc6d950$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <002901c53fd8$c5955070$0301010a@galaxy> Like it now... DD ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art > You have. Liked it the first time, liked it the second. > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Snider" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 11:11 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 84 Contemporary Poets on Books That Shaped Their > Art > > > > > > Thanks for posting this, Gabriel. I've ordered a copy. > > > > About Wilbur and Lew Turco's Book of Forms: Wilbur had already won a > > Pulitzer by the time the book came out, but I can easily imagine that > > Wilbur's later use of syllabic lines owed something to the world of > > possibilities Turco points to, especially all those Welsh and Irish rhymed > > syllabics. > > > > Any poet interested in audible form can learn from Turco -- I've still got > > my little garish red paperback, and it's a rare week when I don't at least > > open it. I met Lew in the late 70s, and, after reading my very first > > (godawful) sonnet, he said "You're a pretty literary guy, aren't you?" It > > was the perfect thing to say to me, but it wasn't a compliment. So one of > > my most treasured compliments came when last year he said "That's a great > > awdl gywydd!" about this: > > > > Arse Poetica > > > > > > Full of myself as I was > > I told a dozen bold lies > > About my poems while she > > Sat by me. I watched her thighs > > > > Cross and uncross and I thought > > "She's really hot for me," dead > > Sure when she stood up she'd take > > Me, she'd break my back in bed, > > > > And I'd break her yearning heart > > With my magic art and deft, > > Hard, heavy penis. She yawned, > > "I ain't so fond of fools." And left. > > > > > > I think I may have posted this poem here before -- if so, I apologize. > > > > ----- > > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 05:02:54 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:02:54 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art Message-ID: <200504130741.j3D7fCcU191066@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> A men Eye mean A MEN that was written as a "concrete" viz-po but alas I couldn't make that come through on this list. Chris ---------- >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art >Date: Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 5:23 PM > > > >> and a definition of a philistine in life is a person who thinks >> cancer research or the like is less important than poetry. >> >> Chris > > Possibly. I would call such a person a philistine in survival, though--he > fails properly to recognize the value of survival compared with the value > of meaningfulness. Not that he necessarily rates the latter value higher > than the former. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 13 03:45:24 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:45:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <200504130741.j3D7fCcU191066@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <022c01c53ffc$c0fcd230$f09c9951@Robin> > A men > Eye mean > A MEN > > > > that was written as a "concrete" viz-po A concrete haiku? But could one or the other of the "A"s be "Ah"? -- less repetitious. Or the last line be one word -- "AMEN"? Just a thot. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 13 06:04:25 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 06:04:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art References: <200504130741.j3D7fCcU191066@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <003d01c54010$2c8e12d0$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >A men > Eye mean > A MEN > Athnk, Ithnk --Bob G From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Wed Apr 13 10:02:40 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why WHy WHY is this demented email giving me so much cheer this morning...it distracts me from stupid health problems, young mildly horrifying adolescent children, various confusions of the heart and the finalizing of a divorce, peut-etre - so now I must ask, Kent, my dear, WHAT POEM would answer this question for you? I love that picture of Jack and Gerry. Of course, look who's doing the talking... The only consolation I get from being a poet is that when I get a poem that nails it, I have that deep-seated pleasure of knowing I have Done My Job. At least for the day. Goes deeper than anything. The experience of publishing doesn't even come near that feeling. But I want to know, What Poem??? On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Kent Johnson wrote: > Sounds like an interesting book, and I'm glad to see that Gabe is in > there. I can't wait to see what he says, exactly, since what books could > have helped bring about the poems in A Defense of Poetry? They are sui > generis in their bizarro-world qualities. > > However, I must say I wonder about the more or less self-congratulatory > assumptions behind the nature of such an anthology [...That Shaped Their > Art... O! Muses! Grecian Urn!]. For I believe most poets do know, deep > in the darkest and truest chambers of their hearts, that they are > selfish, mean, spiteful, back-stabbing, childish, and generally > worm-like beings who have chosen a way life that leads, in the main, to > loss and despair, not to mention confusion and hurt for nearly everyone > around them, including children and pets. (This is especially true of > that wing of American poetry known as the "post-avant.") And they know, > too (poets, I mean), and secretly, that what they do as "ART" is of much > inferior worth to the world than, for example, radio astronomy, or > particle physics, or cancer research, or architecture. Actually, the > realization of this ontological "lesserness" is the deeper impetus, I > suspect, of Gabe's astonishing, visceral poetic violence toward innocent > beings like dolphins or peacocks: It is unmediated projection of primal > rage, pure libidinal energy of the first power, and it is what makes > Gabe's poems so interesting and frightening. > > The other day, Gabe wrote to me and he said this: > > "oh MY GOD: there's a funeral procession outside my apartment window!!! > aND somehow a huge furniture truck got stuck in middle of it. Life > should stop it.!" > > This quote, including its carefully controlled typos, illustrates > another aspect of Gabe Gudding's disturbed personality which I will > comment on in a future email. I probably shouldn't have interrupted the > train of my thought by inserting it, but I am typing quickly here. To > continue, then... > > So let's be honest. Our "ART" is a portal to Hell. You > twenty-somethings might not yet realize it. But just wait... Get ye to > Paris or to some kind of prestigious MFA program before too long, and > get there while you can still walk the streets like Gerald Stern and > Jack Gilbert on the cover of The Red Coal and feel like you are superior > and that your lives mean something. It is a good feeling while it lasts. > But Reality comes on cat's paws and in the night. > > As for me, I am going to put together an abstract now for an anthology > of brief essays titled: > > 84 Poets on the Poems that Utterly Fucked Up Their Lives. > > Kent > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Wed Apr 13 10:32:10 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Off to Yuma AZ In-Reply-To: <003b01c53fc9$21a90ab0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <48f45fe1dcfa60827461253003e9333f@mac.com> <003b01c53fc9$21a90ab0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Thanks, Mole. Yearning and deperation in the old west. Who can resist that??? From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Apr 13 11:00:36 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:00:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Famous Seamus Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEA75@URANIUM.ripon.college> On the birthday of Seamus Heaney. . . . An Afterwards She would plunge all poets in the ninth circle And fix them, tooth in skull, tonguing for brain; For backbiting in life she'd make their hell A rabid egotistical daisy-chain. Unyielding, spurred, ambitious, unblunted, Lockjawed, mantrapped, each a fastened badger Jockeying for position, hasped and mounted Like Ugolino on Archbishop Roger. And when she'd make her circuit of the ice, Aided and abetted by Virgil's wife, I would cry out, 'My sweet, who wears the bays In our green land above, whose is the life Most dedicated and exemplary?' And she: 'I have closed my widowed ears To the sulphurous news of poets and poetry. Why could you not have, oftener, in our years Unclenched, and come down laughing from your room And walked the twilight with me and your children-- Like that one evening of elder bloom And hay, when the wild roses were fading?' And (as some make gaffs me in the neck) 'You weren't the worst. You aspired to a kind, Indifferent, faults-on-both-sides tact. You left us first, and then those books, behind.' --Seamus Heaney ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 11:06:41 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:06:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Off to Yuma AZ Message-ID: <20258978.1113404801834.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Mole understood it correctly. Yuma is one of the 7 armpits of Arizona. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Kerry O'Keefe Sent: Apr 13, 2005 7:32 AM To: The Old Mole Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Off to Yuma AZ Thanks, Mole. Yearning and deperation in the old west. Who can resist that??? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 13 12:23:53 2005 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:23:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art In-Reply-To: <217ce0f005041215557ce15e90@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f4e36c64f01391d3d48eb7ac6005de5@rebaroni.com> <217ce0f005041215557ce15e90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050413111649.02825758@mail.ilstu.edu> In regards to Kent's v. funny Hobbesian nasty brutish short poets are worms post: this brought to mind Wm James' book THE VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, specifically the two lectures under the rubric "The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness" wherein James discusses Whitman as a preeminent example of healthy mindedness: "The supreme contemporary example of such an inability to feel evil is of course Walt Whitman." James counted himself among the "sick souls" who needed to be "twice-born" (not in the strictly Xtian sense either) and he was fascinated by healthy mindedness. Unlike Kent, I feel it's entirely possible to be healthy minded and to write astounding poetry. I can think of a number of poets who were. There seems to me no doubt that all poets seek it, even Jarry in his own nun-punching way. I quote a long passage from VARIETIES on Whitman here: http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/2005/04/william-james-on-walt-whitman.html Gabe From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Wed Apr 13 13:04:51 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:04:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books that Shaped their Art Message-ID: >In regards to Kent's v. funny Hobbesian nasty brutish short poets are worms post: Well, I'm gald that Gabe, at least (along with Kerry), saw the humor in it! Kent From tad at opus40.org Wed Apr 13 13:31:14 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:31:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others - happy birthday Sam Message-ID: <001a01c5404e$999c9610$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> NEITHER to and fro in shadow from inner to outer shadow from impenetrable self to impenetrable unself by way of neither as between two lit refuges whose doors once neared gently close, once away turned from gently part again beckoned back and forth and turned away heedless of the way, intent on the one gleam or the other unheard footfalls only sound till at last halt for good, absent for good from self and other then no sound then gently light unfading on that unheeded neither unspeakable home Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Apr 13 01:37:47 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:37:47 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art (Bob Grumman) In-Reply-To: <200504131600.j3DG040t020632@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200504131600.j3DG040t020632@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Once I visited a parapalegic ward. I won't get into what I saw, but it was heart rending. When the soldiers' attention fell upon me and I was asked what I *did*, I told them. Then, I commanded myself to give a poetry reading. This poetry reading had to achieve one thing regardless of the kind of poet I was, or the style of poetry I brought to the occasion, metered or unmetered, introverted or utterly investigative, it had to complete one mission: it had to affirm life. R i c h a r d D i l l o n ELEMENOPE Productions -- From clitophon at yahoo.com Wed Apr 13 14:17:02 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 84 Poets on Books That Shaped Their Art (Bob Grumman) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050413181702.54292.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Christ, isn't your life like umpteen war films relegated to a Saturday afternoon's viewing. Why didn't you just laugh at them and tell them what suckers they were to get involved with naive crap like patriotism and the military. That's what you really think, isn't it? Or be honest and just read parts of Brecht poems, noting that Brecht was also a big fake (like you) and not to believe anything he says either. What would I do? I think, to be honest, that anyone who gets themselves into the military and is injured is a sucker for propaganda and that the only good reason that they were in uniform might have been to defend their own turf from rapine, pillage and the like. Forget about defending liberty, that's what the other side have been told too. Do they commend our sympathy? Everyone does --- ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Once I visited a parapalegic ward. I won't get into > what I saw, but > it was heart rending. When the soldiers' attention > fell upon me and > I was asked what I *did*, I told them. Then, I > commanded myself to > give a poetry reading. This poetry reading had to > achieve one thing > regardless of the kind of poet I was, or the style > of poetry I > brought to the occasion, metered or unmetered, > introverted or utterly > investigative, it had to complete one mission: it > had to affirm life. > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > ELEMENOPE Productions > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From tad at opus40.org Wed Apr 13 14:31:08 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:31:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] T for Texas, T for Tennessee... Message-ID: <005b01c54056$f8a49d30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> A previously unpublished poem by Tennessee Williams, described as having been "written out of absolute, complete despair," has been discovered in his blue test booklet from a college course in 1937. The 17-line poem, titled "Blue Song," has been acquired by Washington University in St. Louis, where Williams, as a student in his mid-20s, plummeted into depression before fleeing the city he said he despised. The poem, penciled in an exam booklet for his failing Greek class at the university, speaks to "a loss of identity, and absolute, complete despair," said Henry Schvey, the Washington University professor and Williams scholar who found the poem and test booklet last March at Faulkner House Books in New Orleans. "It's clearly someone who feels he's lost his moorings or who he is, or, if he has his identity, it belongs to a different place," Schvey said Tuesday. "Here he was, 25 years old, still an undergraduate, and wearing a jacket and tie everyday to school. He had had this disgraceful situation with a play (that lost an English class competition) and he knew he was going to fail the (Greek) course." In the poem, originally titled, "Sad Song," and still bearing Williams' eraser marks, the writer divulged feelings that Schvey said he found "very moving." Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pmetres at jcu.edu Wed Apr 13 14:46:41 2005 From: pmetres at jcu.edu (Philip Metres) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:46:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines Message-ID: Folks, I know this is going to sound PC, but every time this word, "philistine" is used, I cringe. Them A-rabs, or ancestors of the A-Rabs, with their "philistinism." Filistineeya=Palestine. Wikipedia has this to say: "British writers of the 19th century and very early 20th century sometimes referred to the Arabs of Palestine as "Philistines". This was apparently not due to a belief in a strong connection with the ancient Philistines, but merely reflects the former convention that "Philistine" simply denotes "native of "Palestine". [Maybe it's just that the British imperialists thought these folks were unworthy peasants who didn't know shit about liberal arts or property rights, etc.] I know that's not what's meant, but I'm sure people cringe when they hear something is done "niggardly," or the more directly racist, "jewing someone down." Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 (216) 397-4528 (work) http://www.philipmetres.com From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 14:50:40 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:50:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Shoot, I cringe whenever I hear of Republicans caucusing. Hal "Poetry read out loud is never quite so beautiful as poetry read in silence." --Donald Hall Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ { Folks, { { I know this is going to sound PC, but every time this { word, "philistine" is used, I cringe. Them A-rabs, or { ancestors of the A-Rabs, with their "philistinism." { Filistineeya=Palestine. { { Wikipedia has this to say: { "British writers of the 19th century and very early 20th { century sometimes referred to the Arabs of Palestine { as "Philistines". This was apparently not due to a belief in { a strong connection with the ancient Philistines, but merely { reflects the former convention that "Philistine" simply { denotes "native of "Palestine". { { [Maybe it's just that the British imperialists thought these { folks were unworthy peasants who didn't know shit about { liberal arts or property rights, etc.] { { I know that's not what's meant, but I'm sure people cringe { when they hear something is done "niggardly," or the more { directly racist, "jewing someone down." { { Philip Metres { Assistant Professor { Department of English { John Carroll University { 20700 N. Park Blvd { University Heights, OH 44118 { (216) 397-4528 (work) { http://www.philipmetres.com { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 15:28:19 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:28:19 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines Message-ID: <9875351.1113420499225.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Yep, anglo saxons seem to have disparaging terms for all others. The flip-side gives us AmeriKKKan, Blue-eyed Devil, whitey, honky, gringo, redneck, cracker etc., but is there a term that would be defined as "something-a-white-man-would-have-done"? What, exactly, does "That's very white of you" mean? - Jim -----Original Message----- From: Philip Metres Sent: Apr 13, 2005 11:46 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines Folks, I know this is going to sound PC, but every time this word, "philistine" is used, I cringe. Them A-rabs, or ancestors of the A-Rabs, with their "philistinism." Filistineeya=Palestine. Wikipedia has this to say: "British writers of the 19th century and very early 20th century sometimes referred to the Arabs of Palestine as "Philistines". This was apparently not due to a belief in a strong connection with the ancient Philistines, but merely reflects the former convention that "Philistine" simply denotes "native of "Palestine". [Maybe it's just that the British imperialists thought these folks were unworthy peasants who didn't know shit about liberal arts or property rights, etc.] I know that's not what's meant, but I'm sure people cringe when they hear something is done "niggardly," or the more directly racist, "jewing someone down." Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 (216) 397-4528 (work) http://www.philipmetres.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 13 15:55:17 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:55:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <425D40E5.23082.2107B73@localhost> On 13 Apr 2005 at 14:46, Philip Metres wrote: > I know this is going to sound PC, but every time this > word, "philistine" is used, I cringe. Them A-rabs, or > ancestors of the A-Rabs, with their "philistinism." > Filistineeya=Palestine. > I know that's not what's meant, but I'm sure people cringe > when they hear something is done "niggardly," or the more > directly racist, "jewing someone down." I'm with you on two out of three, Phil, but "niggardly" has no etymological connection to "nigger". >From Michael Quinion at World Wide Words: [Q] From Robyn Hodges: ?I wonder if you could help me find the origin of the word niggardly?? [A] Despite the similarity in spelling?and the huge controversy at the beginning of 1999 over its use by a member of the staff of the Mayor of Washington, DC?this word has no connection with nigger. The adverb form niggardly was formed in the sixteenth century from niggard, the name for a miser or stingy person. In the Wycliffe Bible of 1384 it was spelt nygard; earlier still it can be found as nigon, and another form nig also existed. We are pretty sure this was borrowed from a Scandinavian source, because there are related words in several Germanic languages, for example, the Old Norse hn?gger, meaning ?stingy?. World Wide Words is copyright ? Michael Quinion, 1996?2005. All rights reserved. Contact the author for reproduction requests. Comments and feedback are always welcome. Page created 26 September 1998; last updated 13 March 1999. http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nig1.htm Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 13 16:11:26 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:11:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines References: Message-ID: <03c201c54064$f98b7260$f09c9951@Robin> > I know this is going to sound PC I'm sorry, Philip, but this is not only PC, it's both linguistic and historical nonsense. > but every time this > word, "philistine" is used, I cringe. Them A-rabs, or > ancestors of the A-Rabs, with their "philistinism." > Filistineeya=Palestine. The primary referent for "Philistine" is biblical, them what Samson smote with the ass's jaw. "Philistia" was the southern sea-coast of Palestine, not Palestine as a whole. Though there's a tangle around even that. But no way is it possible to equate Philistine/Philistia with the entirety of Palestine. Where did you get what you say above from? > Wikipedia has this to say: > "British writers of the 19th century and very early 20th > century sometimes referred to the Arabs of Palestine > as "Philistines". With all respect for Wikipedia, which I rather approve off, if this was a usage, it was a very minor one. (That I haven't come across it doesn't mean it didn't exist.) The obvious and predominant meaning, in the nineteenth century and today, and the one that Bob Grumman was (I presume) drawing on in his post comes from Matthew Arnold's Barbarian/Philistine/Populace distinction, and Arnold used the term to slag off the bloody *English*. In this context, it had no racial connotations whatsoever. (That's not to say that there aren't some deeply dubious class elements around Arnold's use of the term, but that's another matter.) > This was apparently not due to a belief in > a strong connection with the ancient Philistines, but merely > reflects the former convention that "Philistine" simply > denotes "native of "Palestine". ??? > [Maybe it's just that the British imperialists thought these > folks were unworthy peasants who didn't know shit about > liberal arts or property rights, etc.] Hey, now *you're* implicitly drawing on the Arnoldian spin on the word. > I know that's not what's meant, but I'm sure people cringe > when they hear something is done "niggardly," Well, I for one don't cringe -- not to go into details, the term "niggardly" (mean, stingy, parsimonious) has absolutely *no* connection with "nigger". > or the more directly racist, "jewing someone down." There I'd entirely agree -- that's sickeningly and unequivocally racist. But to bring "Philistine", "niggardly" and "jewing down" (and note the use of the lower case there -- a classic pejorative racist signal) under the same umbrella does no one any good. In fact it's counter-productive -- it can be kind of difficult to challenge racist uses of language when someone says (as was said to me once), "How can you take these people seriously when they think the term 'denigrate' is racist?" God preserve me from my friends. :-( Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 13 16:31:20 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:31:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines References: Message-ID: <015901c54067$c0ebb890$99b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Blessed be the cringers, for they are 60% of what makes the use of offensive language so pleasurable. --Bob G. > Folks, > > I know this is going to sound PC, but every time this > word, "philistine" is used, I cringe. Them A-rabs, or > ancestors of the A-Rabs, with their "philistinism." > Filistineeya=Palestine. > > Wikipedia has this to say: > "British writers of the 19th century and very early 20th > century sometimes referred to the Arabs of Palestine > as "Philistines". This was apparently not due to a belief in > a strong connection with the ancient Philistines, but merely > reflects the former convention that "Philistine" simply > denotes "native of "Palestine". > > [Maybe it's just that the British imperialists thought these > folks were unworthy peasants who didn't know shit about > liberal arts or property rights, etc.] > > I know that's not what's meant, but I'm sure people cringe > when they hear something is done "niggardly," or the more > directly racist, "jewing someone down." > > Philip Metres > Assistant Professor > Department of English > John Carroll University > 20700 N. Park Blvd > University Heights, OH 44118 > (216) 397-4528 (work) > http://www.philipmetres.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 13 18:24:46 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:24:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines References: <425D40E5.23082.2107B73@localhost> Message-ID: <03f101c54077$99d29d90$f09c9951@Robin> From: "Marcus Bales" quoting: > [A] Despite the similarity in spelling-and the huge controversy at > the beginning of 1999 over its use by a member of the staff of the > Mayor of Washington, DC-this word has no connection with nigger. Marcus, unless I'm wrong, this turned on the use of the term "denigrate" rather than "niggardly". But I may be wrong. (And anyway, *neither* term links to "nigger".) Anyone backstop this? Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 13 18:50:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:50:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines References: <425D40E5.23082.2107B73@localhost> <03f101c54077$99d29d90$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <040c01c5407b$38af3a10$f09c9951@Robin> > > [A] Despite the similarity in spelling-and the huge controversy at > > the beginning of 1999 over its use by a member of the staff of the > > Mayor of Washington, DC-this word has no connection with nigger. > > Marcus, unless I'm wrong, this turned on the use of the term "denigrate" > rather than "niggardly". > > But I may be wrong. > > (And anyway, *neither* term links to "nigger".) > > Anyone backstop this? So right, I was wrong here (google which I should have done earlier): << None of them seemed to work. So this morning I picked up the paper, and low and behold the answer was there. "David Howard, Mayor Anthony A. Williams' chief public advocate has quit after using the word some staffers said they heard as a racial slur," was how the Washington Times began its coverage. The word: "niggardly." Now, niggardly is a word that does mean miserly, and does sound a lot like, well, you know what it sounds like. But you see, niggardly is a word with Scandinavian roots. In 16th century Sweden a "nigard" was a miser. Now that other word is derived from the Spanish "negro," meaning black which in turn comes from the Latin denigrare which literally means "to blacken." This was also the original meaning of "denigrate," as well as a metaphorical use meaning to belittle or defame. >> http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg012799.html et alia ... Mind you, it's interesting how often the words "niggardly" and "denigrate" come up in the same reports of the Washington staffer's resignation Robin From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 13 19:10:16 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:10:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] philistines Message-ID: <12d.5a5f25ab.2f8f00d8@cs.com> In a message dated 4/13/2005 5:25:16 PM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > > >[A] Despite the similarity in spelling-and the huge controversy at > >the beginning of 1999 over its use by a member of the staff of the > >Mayor of Washington, DC-this word has no connection with nigger. > > Marcus, unless I'm wrong, this turned on the use of the term "denigrate" > rather than "niggardly". > > But I may be wrong. > > (And anyway, *neither* term links to "nigger".) > > Anyone backstop this? It was "niggardly," as I recall. "Denigrate" does have something of a racist subtext since it comes from the Latin "to darken." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 13 20:44:33 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:44:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McClatchy on 11/NPM/05 Message-ID: <1ac.3635e754.2f8f16f1@aol.com> In the late 1700's, Darwin's grandfather Erasmus wrote an epic, eros-filled poem about flower reproduction entitled "The Loves of the Plants." Here, J. D. McClatchy places sexuality and the botanical together in a poem with the orchid as its central image. *************************************** Orchid Now that you are gone, you are everywhere. ???????Take this orchid, for instance, its swollen lip, the scrawny stalk's one ???????descended testicle as wrinkled as rhetoric on the bar-scene stump, ???????the golden years since jingling in its purse. How else signal the bee? In my swan-clip now languish urgent appeals ???????from the usual charities lined up to be ignored. But your flags are up: ???????I see the flapping petals, the whorl of sepals, their grinning come-on. ???????Always game, again I'd head straight for the column's sweet trap. Ducking under the puckered anther cap ???????to glide towards the stiff, waxy sense of things, where male and female ???????hardly matter to one's heady urge to pull back the glistening lobes ???????and penetrate the heart, I fell for it every time, the sticky bead laid down on my back as I huddled there ???????with whatever? mimicking enemy or friend, the molecular musk ???????of each a triggering lure? wanted the most of me. Can I leave now too? ???????I have death's dust-seed on me. I have it from touching you. ?? ? ? ? ? ? ***************************************From HAZMAT by J. D. McClatchy. ? 2002 by J. D. McClatchy. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ********************************************** Related links: About HAZMAT: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEj0DXKYc0Wa0d5S0EB About J. D. McClatchy: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEj0DXKYc0Wa0d5R0EA Learn more about the anatomy of orchids: http://www.orchidlady.com/encyclopedia/orchid_flower_anatomy.html Discuss "Orchid" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjEj0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0El ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 13 20:54:29 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:54:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ADRIENNE RICH on April 19, webcast Message-ID: <1f5.7a4cdc2.2f8f1945@aol.com> From: afilreis at writing.upenn.edu ADRIENNE RICH on April 19 at the Kelly Writers House join us by live webcast ---------------------------------------------------------------------- the Kelly Writers House Fellows program presents Adrienne Rich winner of this year's National Book Critics Circle Award 10:30 AM (eastern time) on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 a conversation (with audience Q&A) conducted by Al Filreis To participate via webcast, simply rsvp to: << whfellow at writing.upenn.edu >> Anyone with a computer and an internet connection can participate. Participants in the webcast will be able to pose questions to Adrienne Rich by email or telephone. For more information about the Kelly Writers House webcast series, see ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ Those who rsvp will receive further instructions. For more about Adrienne Rich, see ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow/rich.html Kelly Writers House 3805 Locust Walk University of Pennsylvania 215 573-WRIT www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? * - * ? ?? Writers House Fellows is funded by a generous grant from Paul Kelly. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? previous Fellows: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Lyn Hejinian? ? ? ? 2005 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Roger Angell ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? E. L. Doctorow ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? James Alan McPherson? ? 2004 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Russell Banks? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Susan Sontag? ? ? ? 2003 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Walter Bernstein ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Laurie Anderson ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? John Ashbery? ? ? ? ? ? 2002 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Charles Fuller ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Michael Cunningham ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? June Jordan? ? ? ? ? ?? 2001 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? David Sedaris ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Tony Kushner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Grace Paley? ? ? ? ? ?? 2000 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Robert Creeley ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? John Edgar Wideman ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Gay Talese? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1999 ?? recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 13 21:16:45 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:16:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Rattapallax Films' Premiering at Tribeca Film Festival / PEN Event Message-ID: <54.421b1aa3.2f8f1e7d@aol.com> > Subj: Rattapallax Films' Premiering at Tribeca Film Festival / PEN Event > Date: 4/10/2005 10:05:05 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: info at rattapallax.com > To: info at rattapallax.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > > Dear Friends: last March 2004, Rattapallax began a new venture into > producing > films. I am happy to report one of our first successes. Please join us > for the screening of legendary filmmaker Amir Naderi's "Sound Barrier" which > will be premiering at the Tribeca Film Festival. It has been selected as > a Spotlight feature. More info at > http://www.rattapallax.com/naderi.htm > > Screening Schedule: > Sun, Apr 24 / 3:00pm at Stuyvesant High School Auditorium, NYC > Tue, Apr 26 / 7:00pm at Tribeca Cinemas Theater 1, NYC > Wed, Apr 27 / 3:45pm at Regal Battery Park 9, NYC > All tickets are $10.00 > > We also have two other documentaries in post-production. One is titled > "Alabanza, > Neruda" which is about Mart?n Espada, September 11 (USA and Chile) and Pablo > Neruda. > > Lastly, we have an event with PEN titled: UniVerse: World Literary Voices. > > Featuring Bei Dao, Breyten Breytenbach, Elena Poniatowska, Mart?n Espada, > John Godfrey, Fadhil al-Azzawi, Dunya Mikhail, Joan Margarit Consarnau & > Elif Shafak. Translators are Eliot Weinberger, Idra Novey &Niloufar Talebi. > > > April 21, 2005 at 9pm. Free. St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St. &2nd Ave., > NYC. Sponsored by Rattapallax &Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church &PEN > American Center. http://www.rattapallax.com/pen.htm > > Cheers > Ram Devineni > Publisher &Producer > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Wed Apr 13 22:15:01 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:15:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New on Poetry Portraits Message-ID: <003101c54097$c6ed3180$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Molly Peacock Carl Rakosi Robert Penn Warren Robert Creeley Charles Olson Claude McKay http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/pojazz.html Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From debra at debradicembre.com Thu Apr 14 01:43:23 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:43:23 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Rattapallax Films' Premiering at Tribeca FilmFestival / PEN Event References: <54.421b1aa3.2f8f1e7d@aol.com> Message-ID: <003701c540b4$e0e8a0c0$0301010a@galaxy> Thankyou thankyou thankyou..... DD ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:16 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Rattapallax Films' Premiering at Tribeca FilmFestival / PEN Event Subj: Rattapallax Films' Premiering at Tribeca Film Festival / PEN Event Date: 4/10/2005 10:05:05 PM Eastern Standard Time From: info at rattapallax.com To: info at rattapallax.com Sent from the Internet Dear Friends: last March 2004, Rattapallax began a new venture into producing films. I am happy to report one of our first successes. Please join us for the screening of legendary filmmaker Amir Naderi's "Sound Barrier" which will be premiering at the Tribeca Film Festival. It has been selected as a Spotlight feature. More info at http://www.rattapallax.com/naderi.htm Screening Schedule: Sun, Apr 24 / 3:00pm at Stuyvesant High School Auditorium, NYC Tue, Apr 26 / 7:00pm at Tribeca Cinemas Theater 1, NYC Wed, Apr 27 / 3:45pm at Regal Battery Park 9, NYC All tickets are $10.00 We also have two other documentaries in post-production. One is titled "Alabanza, Neruda" which is about Mart?n Espada, September 11 (USA and Chile) and Pablo Neruda. Lastly, we have an event with PEN titled: UniVerse: World Literary Voices. Featuring Bei Dao, Breyten Breytenbach, Elena Poniatowska, Mart?n Espada, John Godfrey, Fadhil al-Azzawi, Dunya Mikhail, Joan Margarit Consarnau & Elif Shafak. Translators are Eliot Weinberger, Idra Novey &Niloufar Talebi. April 21, 2005 at 9pm. Free. St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St. &2nd Ave., NYC. Sponsored by Rattapallax &Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church &PEN American Center. http://www.rattapallax.com/pen.htm Cheers Ram Devineni Publisher &Producer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 14 07:44:47 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:44:47 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] All clever! References: <54.421b1aa3.2f8f1e7d@aol.com> <003701c540b4$e0e8a0c0$0301010a@galaxy> Message-ID: <00b401c540e7$5c2133b0$8ead3252@ANNY> Why do we love poetry? Why does reading, hearing & reciting poems make us feel more alive? Scientists in Scotland say they can measure the good effects poems have on our brains: "If literature is food for the mind, then a poem is a banquet, according to research by Scottish scientists which shows poetry is better for the brain than prose. Psychologists at Dundee and St Andrews universities claim the work of poets such as Lord Byron exercise the mind more than a novel by Jane Austen. By monitoring the way different forms of text are read, they found poetry generated far more eye movement which is associated with deeper thought. Subjects were found to read poems slowly, concentrating and re-reading individual lines more than they did with prose." >From http://poetry.about.com/b/a/161128.htm i.e. Margery Snyder & Bob Holman Have a good day, Anny Ballardini -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Apr 14 10:44:12 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:44:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425E81BC.6000404@ix.netcom.com> *http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/**/ The Assassinated Press /* Truth Carries Undesirable Subliminal Message: With Iraq Lies Bush Shot Wad With Ghetto Inhabitants Near Texas Spread: Americans Skeptical On Social Security Because Of Lies About Iraq: Rove Admits Iraq/Social Security Linkage Poorly Gamed; Orders Bush To Fall On The Ceremonial Butter Knife Unwashed After A Republican Fundraiser YASO ADIODI The Assassinated Press April 15, 2005 WEIKO, Texas ? If President Bush's Social Security hustle is going to ring bells anywhere, it ought to be a hit with the Better Investment Group of Weiko, which meets once a month at Adam Earwicker's Rib Shack to discuss earnings growth over charity barbecue and beans. The group, which calls itself the BIG schlub club, is dedicated to the proposition that individual investors can and should profit handsomely from putting some of their savings into the stock market. "We've been at it for 40 years and though we're destitute, we still believe its possible," said club treasury Percy Walleye as the aromatic esperanto of digested beans permeated the room. That kind of stick-to-it-tiveness is exactly what Bush's handlers are proposing as part of what they call 'his' still-emerging con for addressing who should hold Social Security's funds in case something goes drastically wrong and the country comes a lynchin' at Lafayettte Square. Younger workers, he has been told to say, should be able to divert a portion of their payroll taxes into personal accounts containing stock and bond mutual funds. In return, their traditional Social Security benefits would be trimmed enough to leave every retiring American in short pants. But the personal accounts would build up over time, Bush was told to say, and would supplement traditional benefits on retirement of those wealthy Wall Street types that the good people of BIG only know through the fiery Sunday sermons of their preachers and the History Channel series Nazi Gold. Yet here in Bush's central Texas stamping ground ? his Crawford ranch is nearby ? some BIG members have misgivings about the president's proposal because they know what a shit bag little liar the fucker has proven to be with his Iraq shit and all and the fact that 6 bag boys at the Piggly Wiggly have lost limbs so Dick Cheney can run up the price of oil. "I mean give me a fuckin' break. We ain't pullin' out of Iraq until she's good and fucked. And that means when them 14 U.S. bases are in place. We don't give shit on shrimp cocktail about Iraqis handling their own fuckin' affairs. Cheney wants those 14 bases to protect the oil and natural gas and control the water. Once those fuckers are in place, Sunnis, Kurds, Shi'ites. They can fuckin' cut each others heads off to Rumsfeld's delight. Same deal with Social Security. Let the devil take the hindmost with that bunch of gangsters in Washington," commented manager of the local Prosthetics Are Us, Jimmy Legg. "I'm on Social Security, and it's probably the best cocksuckin' investment I've ever made," said the club's president, 75-year-old Maurice Labens. "As long as I live I'll have some income from it, even if I live to be 150. I'd hate to see some greasy graduate from Harvard Business School get his filthy hands on it." Life expectancy in Weiko, where no one has seen a doctor in 73 years, is 206. Judging by the reaction of Labens and other club members, Bush would have some serious explaining to do if he let the Wall Street Mafia rip off the few bucks do 'em through Social Security. "I tell you one thing. That fat assed mother of his wouldn't recognize him after I got through with him if that little weasel fucked me on Social Security the way he fucked everybody on Iraq. No wonder you don't see Cheney around this. He's waiting to see if the little pecker gets thumped." Of eight club members contacted last weekend, two expressed unqualified support for the president's personal account proposal---the local pawn shop owner and the local banker. The rest were opposed or uncertain, citing concerns about most Americans' ability to manage personal accounts in light of all the major thieves and criminals the capitalist system has spawned lo these 200 years like the Cheney administration; grifters and killers that have nothing better to do all day than think up ways to steal other peoples' money while convincing them to send their flesh and blood off to die so that the criminal class can also steal from the rest of the world at no personal risk or expense to them. Also raised was the possibility that conservatives were seeking to dismantle New Deal social programs as the Communist threat that they irrefutably are. "First food stamps. Next the Paris Commune," warned Majority leader Bill Frist. "Never underestimate mankind's unwillingness to starve for his betters." Some wanted to withhold judgment until the White House got more specific about what it had in mind. "Like does the White House think Social Security has WMD," asked Mr. Legg. "Maybe, they shoulda just led with that bullshit cocksucker twice." The mixed feelings evident in this group in the shadow of the president's Crawford compound reflect concerns expressed by participants in national opinion polls---"These are a bunch of cocksucking liars that are out to fuck me like Iraq." And they underscore the challenges facing Bush as he tries to brutalize the opposition to his personal account proposal. Although the White House has asserted that support will grow as the president spreads Karl Rove's lies, at least two recent surveys have suggested that opposition to personal accounts was high among those who considered themselves well-informed about Bush's plan. The Better Investment Group of Weiko is one of about 20,000 local groups chartered by the National Assn. of Rotisserie Investment Clubs, which helps its members choose fantasy stocks by analyzing the stocks' past performance and growth potential. The organization encourages its members to invest a fixed amount of imaginary money in stocks every month, regardless of market conditions. It says its 220,000 members have a combined portfolio value of $117 billion imaginary dollars and consistently outperform the stock market because they operate in the clean atmosphere of fantasy. The Weiko club was organized about 40 years ago. Its portfolio, currently worth about $231,000 mcdollars, consists mainly of blue-chip bellwethers such as rotisserie General Electric Co. and McDonald's Corp. Of the club's 19 members, 76-year-old Carl Kuhnle Jr. has been with the group the longest. A retired pick pocket, Kuhnle thinks Bush's personal account proposal is a great idea. "If I'd been given that option when I was 20, 25, 30 years old, I'd have jumped all over it instead working outside all my life at carnies and house fires," Kuhnle said. "That sounds like a good way to go." Others who had been victimized by Kuhnle were less enthused. Some said they weren't opposed to the unprincipled notion of letting workers invest some of their Social Security taxes, but they were concerned about the effect of Rove's plan that Bush is pushing on the already oft looted treasury and traditional but soon to be looted Social Security benefits. Some said they were convinced most American wage earners would not make good decisions about investing their payroll taxes unless it was set up like a lottery or kino. "Then the fuckers would sit up and take notice, Legg said. "And Wall Street would just become contiguous with Atlantic City surrounded by hundreds of square miles of ghetto and waste dumps." "People won't do their homework unless you put up a tote board in the fuckin' Pick-And-Pay," said 'Gunrack' Smallwoodie, a 52-year-old gunsmith. "Even if they're given only four or five choices, I don't think they'll invest the time it takes to understand which funds are right for them unless there's a lotto and scratch away instant winner." *The Armegeddon Industry* Donne Withered, 82, said even BIG members occasionally abandoned their disciplined investment principles and bought stocks based on hunches or hearsay like the fuckin' rapture, sometimes with painful consequences. "We bought stock in a company that was gonna buy the personal effects of people taken up by the rapture. We ended up with tens of millions of dog eared bibles and things looked pretty goddamned good. Then the cops started finding the raptured buried in their backyards, their rendevous with the creator sped along by a zealous husband or devout child. I lost a bundle on that cocksucker." "Maybe it'll turn around tomorrow," chimed in Kuhnle. "I hear van Impy says this time the time is really nigh, Esleaziastes 6:9." *Hot Tips From The Big Island* "People will come into the meetings with stocks nobody has ever heard of and say, 'I know somebody in New York from Riker's Island Investment who thinks this is a great deal, and it's only going to cost us a couple thousand dollars,' " Withered said. "Fuck we thought Riker's was the clean island and Manhattan the prison ,and who could blame us." "Depending on how many people are attending that night and how much speedball we done, it'll be adopted," he said. "The speedball? Why should we trade stocks any different than New York." Club president Labens, a Weiko City Council member and retired appliance store owner, said he could not support Bush's personal account proposal as long as the president refused to spell out the specifics, something the White House has preferred to leave to Congress. "The little shit lied about Iraq---dozens of times on a dozen issues. It'll be a warm day in Tom Delay's heart before I trust that little bugger again. Not to mention my money means a whole helluva lot more to me than any 10,000 fuckin' dead Iraqis." "If I came to you and said, 'We're going to make you a millionaire, but we're not going to tell you how it's going to work,' how much credibility would I have?" Labens asked. "You wouldn't invade another country and start a wholesale slaughter half-way across the world on just that kind of flimsy say so. Am I right?" Kent Johnson wrote: >>In regards to Kent's v. funny Hobbesian nasty brutish short poets are >> >> >worms post: > >Well, I'm gald that Gabe, at least (along with Kerry), saw the humor in >it! > >Kent >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 14 13:21:41 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:21:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank O'Hara, audio poem Message-ID: <12e.5bedfdae.2f9000a5@aol.com> Below is an entire poetry performance event for you to listen to and read along with. Click on the following link to hear Frank O'Hara's performance of his ecstatically long-lined poem "To the Film Industry in Crisis" with musical accompaniment and the additional voice of O'Hara's close friend Jane Freilicher. The performance was recorded on May 11, 1957. The text of the poem follows. Also, read on to find out about your chance to win free books by voting for week two's Poem-of-the-Week and by entering our Poetry in the World contest. *************************************** "To the Film Industry in Crisis" as featured on Random House Audio's VOICE OF THE POET: FRANK O'HARA. MP3: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0eEl0Ek Real Audio: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0eEm0El To the Film Industry in Crisis Not you, lean quarterlies and swarthy periodicals with your studious incursions toward the pomposity of ants, nor you, experimental theater in which Emotive Fruition is wedding Poetic Insight perpetually, nor you, promenading Grand Opera, obvious as an ear (though you are close to my heart), but you, Motion Picture Industry, it's you I love! In times of crisis, we must all decide again and again whom we love. And give credit where it's due: not to my starched nurse, who taught me how to be bad and not bad rather than good (and has lately availed herself of this information), not to the Catholic Church which is at best an oversolemn introduction to cosmic entertainment, not to the American Legion, which hates everybody, but to you, glorious Silver Screen, tragic Technicolor, amorous Cinemascope, stretching Vistavision and startling Stereophonic Sound, with all your heavenly dimensions and reverberations and iconoclasms! To Richard Barthelmess as the "tol'able" boy barefoot and in pants, Jeanette MacDonald of the flaming hair and lips and long, long neck, Sue Carroll as she sits for eternity on the damaged fender of a car and smiles, Ginger Rogers with her pageboy bob like a sausage on her shuffling shoulders, peach-melba-voiced Fred Astaire of the feet, Eric von Stroheim, the seducer of mountain-climbers' gasping spouses, the Tarzans, each and every one of you (I cannot bring myself to prefer Johnny Weissmuller to Lex Barker, I cannot!), Mae West in a furry sled, her bordello radiance and bland remarks, Rudolph Valentino of the moon, its crushing passions, and moonlike, too, the gentle Norma Shearer, Miriam Hopkins dropping her champagne glass off Joel McCrea's yacht and crying into the dappled sea, Clark Gable rescuing Gene Tierney from Russia and Allan Jones rescuing Kitty Carlisle from Harpo Marx, Cornel Wilde coughing blood on the piano keys while Merle Oberon berates, Marilyn Monroe in her little spike heels reeling through Niagara Falls, Joseph Cotten puzzling and Orson Welles puzzled and Dolores Del Rio eating orchids for lunch and breaking mirrors, Gloria Swanson reclining, and Jean Harlow reclining and wiggling, and Alice Faye reclining and wiggling and singing, Myrna Loy being calm and wise, William Powell in his stunning urbanity, Elizabeth Taylor blossoming, yes, to you and to all you others, the great, the near-great, the featured, the extras who pass quickly and return in your dreams saying your one or two lines, my love! Long may you illumine space with your marvellous appearances, delays and enunciations, and may the money of the world glitteringly cover you as you rest after a long day under the kleig lights with your faces in packs for our edification, the way the clouds come often at night but the heavens operate on the star system. It is a divine precedent you perpetuate! Roll on, reels of celluloid, as the great earth rolls on! ********************************************** "To the Film Industry in Crisis" by Frank O'Hara was recorded May 11, 1957 in New York City. The poem was read by Frank O'Hara and Jane Freilicher. The music was arranged by John Gruen. Permission courtesy of Maureen Granville-Smith, executor, Frank O'Hara estate. The recording was part of Evergreen Review Presents: Poems to Music and Laughter. A tape recording with music supplied by John Gruen, on drums, and player piano (music chosen by John Gruen), engineered by John Button. [Information from: Frank O'Hara: A Comprehensive Bibliography by Alexander Smith, Jr.] >From THE COLLECTED POEMS OF FRANK O'HARA by Frank O'Hara Copyright ? 1971 by Maureen Granville-Smith, Administratix of the Estate of Frank O'Hara. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ************************************************** Related links: More about THE VOICE OF THE POET: FRANK O'HARA: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0eEn0Em The Modern American Poetry Frank O'Hara website, with articles on many of his poems: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0eEo0En >From the introduction to Marjorie Perloff's study of Frank O'Hara: POET AMONG PAINTERS: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0eEp0Eo Discuss "To the Film Industry in Crisis" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Ee ************************************************** THE POEM-OF-THE-WEEK AND THE POETRY IN THE WORLD CONTEST Thanks to all of you who entered last week's contest by voting for your favorite poem of the week. The ten winners who will receive a signed first edition of Camille Paglia's national bestseller BREAK, BLOW, BURN will be contacted later today via email. Marge Piercy's "One Reason I Like Opera" received the most votes to become week one's Poem-of-the-week. You can place your vote for your favorite poem of week two on the Knopf Poetry Forum starting tomorrow, April 15, at midnight ET: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Ee The first five voters of the day will join week one's winners in receiving a signed first edition of BREAK, BLOW, BURN. This week, choose from the emails sent April 8-14, which you can review on the Poem-a-Day homepage: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0d5y0Eg The Poetry in the World Contest: For the remainder of National Poetry Month, we invite you to send us photos and descriptions of how you've seen poetry celebrated out in the real world. If you are a bookseller, send in images of your in-store display. If you admire the display in your favorite bookstore, send us photos of what they did. Teachers, show us a poetry bulletin board you created. Find poetry broadsides hanging on the wall in a library. Have you found a new poetry Web site that you love? Send us the link. If you hang our poems from string in trees outside your house, make poetry kites, or serve your meals out of poetry paper plates, let us know. Surprise us. Whatever you find or choose to do, let us know about it. We will pick the five most creative tributes to poetry and post them on the Borzoi Reader. Winners will receive five books of poetry from Knopf. View the official rules here. http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFb0DXKYc0Wa0eEq0Ep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 15 06:59:04 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:59:04 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] 12th Olomouc Conference References: <12e.5bedfdae.2f9000a5@aol.com> Message-ID: <00e001c541aa$23828810$b3ad3252@ANNY> > From: Palacky University [mailto:colloquium at centrum.cz] > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 2:19 PM 12th Olomouc Colloquium of American Studies September 4-9, 2005, Palacky University, Olomouc, Czech Republic Web address: http://colloquium.upol.cz/ Email address: colloquium at centrum.cz CULT FICTION, FILMS AND HAPPENINGS Our colloquium opens a dialogue between literature, art, history and society. We are interested in the ways in which certain works, events, personas achieve cult status. What are the criteria for attaining cult status? How do they change in the course of history? Is there any cultural logic of the cult? We also want to explore and assess social, political, cultural, moral and aesthetic effects of 'cult'. Format The format of the Colloquium gives space to two longer plenary papers in the morning (60 minutes) and three shorter presentations in the afternoon (30-45 minutes), followed with discussion sessions. The lecturers are encouraged to take a wider and more general perspective in order to address a larger audience, consisting of university teachers of American Studies, American Literature, or English language, and postgraduate and graduate students. The evening program consists of films, concerts, poetry readings, city tours, and other activities. Location The Colloquium is held in a highly attractive, historical city of Olomouc with a well-preserved Renaissance and Baroque historical centre, second largest to Prague. Palacky University is situated in the center of the old town. It is the second oldest university in the Czech lands, and the Philosophical Faculty has the privilege of having been donated two special book collections - the special collection of Nathan Huggins, and the special collection of Ye Gerbish (donation of Eddie & Anna Bishop). Olomouc is easily accessible by express trains from Prague (ca 3 hours). In the past four years, the Colloquium hosted such renowned experts as Professor Emory Elliott (UC Riverside), Russell Reising (Toledo), John Stauffer (Harvard) and many other prominent scholars from all over the world. The keynote speaker for this year is Professor WERNER SOLLORS from Harvard University. Application Send the filled out application form (see http://colloquium.upol.cz/) by e-mail to colloquium at centrum.cz or via regular mail to Mgr. Robert Hysek, Department of English and American Studies, Krizkovskeho 8, 771 80 Olomouc, Czech Republic. Registration fee - 25 Euro for early registration (before June 15) - 30 Euro for late registration Accommodation In nice student hostels, easily accessible by tram. - single - ca 9 Euro/1 night - double - ca 5 Euro/1 night Organizers The Colloquium is sponsored and organized by the Czech and Slovak Association for American Studies and by Palacky University in cooperation with the Embassy of the U.S.A. in Prague. The List of Presentations: The keynote speaker: WERNER SOLLORS, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, USA: “Hemingway, Film Noir, and the Emergence of a 20th-Century American Style“ Other speakers in alphabetical order: Marcel Arbeit, Palacky University, Czech Republic: “Bad Lands in the American Cultural Terrain (Perverts, Thinkers, Consumers)“ Damian Bracken, University College Cork, Ireland: “Images of the Body in the Cult and Life of St Patrick“ Tom Clark, University of Kassel, Germany: “’Beam Me Across, Scotty’: STAR TREK, ‘Cult’ and the Mainstream” John Drabble, Koc University, Turkey: “’The Life of a Repo Man is Always Intense’: Constructing a Middle Class, White-Male Hero in the Context of a Globalizing American Economy” Jiri Flajsar, Palacky University, Czech Republic: “The Poet as Pop Culture Icon: Recent American Performance Poetry” Charles Gannon, St. Bonaventure University, USA: “’I'm Afraid of Americans: America’s Cult(ure) of “Violence’ – or is that ‘Validation’?” Scot Guenter, San Jos? State University, USA: “Ritual, Rebellion, and Rocky Horror: How and Why a Curious Cult Film Touched a Generation” Norbert Gyuris, University of Pecs, Hungary: “The Cult Club of Mediation – Chuck Palahniuk and the Creation of Post-minimalist Fiction” Bernd Herzogenrath, University of Cologne, Germany: “Put the Ulmer back in Ulmermouc – Cult|ure and the King of the B’s” Philip Hoffmann, University of Cologne, Germany: “‘What if it turns out to be hollow?‘ – The Hollow Earth in American Literature, Arts and Science“ Josef Jarab, Palacky University, Czech Republic: “Ken Kesey – Laying the Cuckoo’s Eggs“ Michal Peprnik, Palacky University, Czech Republic: “Our Indian: The Cultural Appropriation of the North American Indian“ Tomas Pospisil, Masaryk University, Brno, Czech Republic: “The Cult of Cronenberg – A Hunk for the Humanities“ Erik S. Roraback, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic: “Heretical Capital: Walter Benjamin’s Cultic Status in Cultural and Theoretical History” Matthew Sweney, Palacky University, Czech Republic: “The Comics' Code: The 1950s and the Cult of Comics“ Livia Szelpal, Central European University, Budapest, Hungary: “The Cult of The Metropolis in Brazil“ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 15 09:11:14 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:11:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Online-Created Poetry Anthology Gains Widespread Distribution Message-ID: <193.3dd6dd3b.2f911772@aol.com> New Online-Created Poetry Anthology Gains Widespread Distribution - Picked Up By Amazon.com and Others The poetry anthology, Along Lighted Alleys, created by the online Yahoo! group The Contemporary Poet Guild, has gained widespread distribution as it is now listed on Amazon.com , Borders.com and Waldenbooks.com as well as the Vromans bookchain in Southern California (PRWEB) April 15, 2005 -- The poetry anthology titled Along Lighted Alleys from the online Yahoo! group The Contemporary Poet Guild has gained widespread distribution this week. It is now not only available from the publisher, www.Lulu.com , but it is also available through Amazon.com as well as www.Borders.com and www.Waldenbooks.com. It is also in the Southern-California based Vromans bookstore database to order ( www.vromansbookstore.com ). Along Lighted Alleys, this highly affordable poetry anthology, is roughly fifty pages and contains poems from the founder of The Contemporary Poet Guild, Gerard Kuc, as well as from Guild members Shah Pravinchandra Kasturchand, Michelle Brady, Frank Allen Blissett III, Jerome Obada, Shanna M. Ahlfs, A.J. Saxon, and Cher Pangilinan. From Los Angeles to New Jersey; from the Philippines to Nigeria; - the poets and poetry spans the globe in this book. There is also a diversity of poem content and style - from the inspirational to the dark. This book is a true anthology. The book, Along Lighted Alleys, is sold at cost, and its purpose is solely to promote recognition to those poets who participated- to support local poets on a global level. Another anthology from The Contemporary Poet Guild may be in the works around October 2005. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 10:20:22 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:20:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry Message-ID: <731bb17a050415072059749f26@mail.gmail.com> >From the Academy of American Poets, "31 groundbreaking books of poetry." No suprises here, I don't think. Who would you add? Hmm...I wonder if *everyone* below is a "mediocrity?" Jeff Newberry Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 15 12:59:06 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:59:06 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Leonardo da Vinci References: <731bb17a050415072059749f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901c541dc$6fab3930$1ede3052@ANNY> And happiest birthday to Leonardo, Google remembers him today, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Fri Apr 15 15:14:11 2005 From: millb at aol.com (millb at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:14:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050415072059749f26@mail.gmail.com> References: <731bb17a050415072059749f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C7100670720DE1-A98-39A50@mblk-r37.sysops.aol.com> How come and "why because" are there no entries after 1977? -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:20:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry >From the Academy of American Poets, "31 groundbreaking books of poetry." No suprises here, I don't think. Who would you add? Hmm...I wonder if *everyone* below is a "mediocrity?" Jeff Newberry Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 15 16:06:54 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:06:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <731bb17a050415072059749f26@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011d01c541f6$ac33e6d0$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> From the Academy of American Poets, "31 groundbreaking books of poetry." No suprises here, I don't think. Who would you add? Hmm...I wonder if *everyone* below is a "mediocrity?" Jeff Newberry Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop I wouldn't call any of them a mediocrity, but whoever wrote the list definitely is. My own press has published more groundbreaking books than are on this list. In my evaluatory scheme there are three levels of major poets; I'd only put six of the poets whose books are on the list into any of those three levels. A few would barely make the lowest of my three levels of minor poets. (But I hold that even that is a very great achievement.) I think it comic but completely unsurprising that nothing by the most ground-breaking American poet by far, E. E. Cummings's, is listed. Zukofsky's "A" should be on it, too. I assume 1950 was the cut-off date, as it is in 98% of what the Academy does. I know, some of the books have later dates, but their contents didn't postdate 1950, except in the trivial sense of when they were written or published. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 15 16:15:12 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:15:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <011d01c541f6$ac33e6d0$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <425FE890.9056.10542BC@localhost> On 15 Apr 2005 at 16:06, Bob Grumman wrote: > Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman > The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson > North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost > Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein > Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens > Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams > The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound > The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes > The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane > Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore > Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay > Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot > Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. > The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke > Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg > Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell > The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks > The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson > A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden > For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley > The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright > 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman > Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara > Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath > Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton > Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan > Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen > Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich > The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo > Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery > Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop > > I wouldn't call any of them a mediocrity, but whoever wrote the list > definitely is. My own press has published more groundbreaking books > than are on this list. In my evaluatory scheme there are three levels > of major poets; I'd only put six of the poets whose books are on the > list into any of those three levels. A few would barely make the > lowest of my three levels of minor poets. (But I hold that even that > is a very great achievement.) > I think it comic but completely unsurprising that nothing by the most > ground-breaking American poet by far, E. E. Cummings's, is listed. > Zukofsky's "A" should be on it, too. I assume 1950 was the cut-off > date, as it is in 98% of what the Academy does. I know, some of the > books have later dates, but their contents didn't postdate 1950, > except in the trivial sense of when they were written or published. Let's see your list, Bob, of 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry for Americans. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 15 16:41:29 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:41:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <425FE890.9056.10542BC@localhost> Message-ID: <016801c541fb$80e7f890$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot >> Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. >> The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke >> Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg >> Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell >> The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks >> The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson >> A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden >> For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley >> The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright >> 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman >> Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara >> Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath >> Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton >> Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan >> Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen >> Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich >> The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo >> Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery >> Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop >> >> I wouldn't call any of them a mediocrity, but whoever wrote the list >> definitely is. My own press has published more groundbreaking books >> than are on this list. In my evaluatory scheme there are three levels >> of major poets; I'd only put six of the poets whose books are on the >> list into any of those three levels. A few would barely make the >> lowest of my three levels of minor poets. (But I hold that even that >> is a very great achievement.) >> I think it comic but completely unsurprising that nothing by the most >> ground-breaking American poet by far, E. E. Cummings's, is listed. >> Zukofsky's "A" should be on it, too. I assume 1950 was the cut-off >> date, as it is in 98% of what the Academy does. I know, some of the >> books have later dates, but their contents didn't postdate 1950, >> except in the trivial sense of when they were written or published. > > Let's see your list, Bob, of 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry for > Americans. > > Marcus Sorry, Marcus, but I have to keep it a secret. Otherwise, the American Academy of Poets might steal it. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 15 17:13:15 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:13:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <016801c541fb$80e7f890$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <425FF62B.7309.13A697C@localhost> Marcus wrote: > > Let's see your list, Bob, of 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry for > > Americans. On 15 Apr 2005 at 16:41, Bob Grumman wrote: > Sorry, Marcus, but I have to keep it a secret. Otherwise, the > American Academy of Poets might steal it. As usual, Grumman hasn't got what he implies he's got: an alternative. The whole point of this kind of discussion is to GET the American Academy of Poets TO steal your list! What could possibly be better? Obviously, then, you haven't got any such list, and cannot produce one. Bob's view is once again mere belligerent carping without any point because he has no legitimate alternative to offer. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 15 17:46:43 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:46:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <425FF62B.7309.13A697C@localhost> Message-ID: <019601c54204$9e0e3200$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Marcus wrote: >> > Let's see your list, Bob, of 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry for >> > Americans. > > On 15 Apr 2005 at 16:41, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Sorry, Marcus, but I have to keep it a secret. Otherwise, the >> American Academy of Poets might steal it. > > As usual, Grumman hasn't got what he implies he's got: an > alternative. The whole point of this kind of discussion is to GET the > American Academy of Poets TO steal your list! What could possibly be > better? Obviously, then, you haven't got any such list, and cannot > produce one. Bob's view is once again mere belligerent carping > without any point because he has no legitimate alternative to offer. > > Marcus How did I know that Marcus would assume I couldn't produce a list simply because he asked for one and I declined to proce one. His notion that I could not produce some list of graoundbreaking books is insane, which isn't to imply that he himself is insane. Note the verosopathic attack on my motives, too. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Fri Apr 15 18:12:40 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:12:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <731bb17a050415072059749f26@mail.gmail.com> <8C7100670720DE1-A98-39A50@mblk-r37.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <005501c54208$3fe71e90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> OK, I'm ready to stand back and accept the flying brickbats. I'd put Billy Collins' "Picnic, Lightning" on the list. He brought poetry to a new level of public acceptance, when it had what amounts to none. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: millb at aol.com To: jeff.newberry at gmail.com ; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry How come and "why because" are there no entries after 1977? -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:20:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry From the Academy of American Poets, "31 groundbreaking books of poetry." No suprises here, I don't think. Who would you add? Hmm...I wonder if *everyone* below is a "mediocrity?" Jeff Newberry Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 15 18:22:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:22:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <731bb17a050415072059749f26@mail.gmail.com><8C7100670720DE1-A98-39A50@mblk-r37.sysops.aol.com> <005501c54208$3fe71e90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01bc01c54209$a1020450$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> OK, I'm ready to stand back and accept the flying brickbats. I'd put Billy Collins' "Picnic, Lightning" on the list. He brought poetry to a new level of public acceptance, when it had what amounts to none. Well, there are all kinds of definitions of "groundbreaking," I suppose, but if getting some group of people to accept poetry counts as groundbreaking, how about whoever the first writer of cowboy poetry was? And should Rod McKuen be on the list for reach a lot more people with poetry than Collins? Ditto Jewel. On reflection, I wonder what new poetry readers Collins can be credited with whom Rita Dove hadn't already captured. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 15 22:37:40 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:37:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <019601c54204$9e0e3200$a2b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42604234.2198.CE04D@localhost> > > Marcus wrote: > >> > Let's see your list, Bob, of 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry > >> > for Americans. > > > > On 15 Apr 2005 at 16:41, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Sorry, Marcus, but I have to keep it a secret. Otherwise, the > >> American Academy of Poets might steal it. Marcus wrote: > > As usual, Grumman hasn't got what he implies he's got: an > > alternative. The whole point of this kind of discussion is to GET > > the American Academy of Poets TO steal your list! What could > > possibly be better? Obviously, then, you haven't got any such list, > > and cannot produce one. Bob's view is once again mere belligerent > > carping without any point because he has no legitimate alternative > > to offer. On 15 Apr 2005 at 17:46, Bob Grumman wrote: > How did I know that Marcus would assume I couldn't produce a list > simply because he asked for one and I declined to pro[du]ce one. > His notion that I could not produce some list of graoundbreaking > books is insane, which isn't to imply that he himself is insane. > Note the verosopathic attack on my motives, too. It's always the same with Grumman: he never has time to explain his genius; he never produces the list of great poems, great books, groundbreaking this, breakthrough that. He's regularly name-calling and derogating and insulting and dismissing. Produce a list and support your reasons for that list. Try to use actual reasons and not merely your unsupported opinions dressed up in pseudo-scientific or neologistic terms. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 08:24:18 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:24:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <42604234.2198.CE04D@localhost> Message-ID: <006301c5427f$368c2080$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > It's always the same with Grumman: he never has time to explain his > genius; he never produces the list of great poems, great books, > groundbreaking this, breakthrough that. He's regularly name-calling > and derogating and insulting and dismissing. Good work, V: you had a chance falsely to use the word "never" three times, but only used it twice. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 16 08:48:36 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:48:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <006301c5427f$368c2080$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4260D164.25471.17564B@localhost> > > It's always the same with Grumman: he never has time to explain his > > genius; he never produces the list of great poems, great books, > > groundbreaking this, breakthrough that. He's regularly name-calling > > and derogating and insulting and dismissing. > On 16 Apr 2005 at 8:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > Good work, V: you had a chance falsely to use the word "never" three > times, but only used it twice. Good work, Grumman: you had the chance to do something other than complain complain complain that the trenches you dig in the desert are not mainstream. Go figure. Maybe you're doing something wrong? Marcus From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 16 11:17:01 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:17:01 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <4260D164.25471.17564B@localhost> Message-ID: <003a01c54297$57094f50$0aa93852@ANNY> If you like proverbs, I just popped into 20,000 or such, Repentant tears wash out the stain of guilt. - Saint Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) http://www.giga-usa.com/quotes/topics/proverbs_t156.htm Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 16 11:38:17 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:38:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <005501c54208$3fe71e90$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 4/15/05 5:12 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: OK, I'm ready to stand back and accept the flying brickbats. I'd put Billy Collins' "Picnic, Lightning" on the list. He brought poetry to a new level of public acceptance, when it had what amounts to none. Tad Richards ------------------------ I suspect that one reason the groundbreaking roster concludes nearly 30 years ago is that it takes about that long to sort out what truly *was* groundbreaking, versus what was merely striking at the time, popular or controversial or whatever. A lot of broken ground leads to dead ends. As such, the exercise doesn't much fascinate me, I confess, since it tends either to repeat the obvious (*Song of Myself,* *Howl*, *Life Studies*, *Diving into the Wreck*, and *The Maximus Poems* have been deeply influential on many poets), or else it devolves pretty quickly into current turf-warring. See, for example, Ron Silliman's recent attempt to redefine *Life Studies* as a dead end as compared to the fresh flowering of *The Lunch Poems*. I like Collins's work and will throw no brickbats at him or his readers, but for me the jury's still out on his curious career. It does seem to me that the list Jeff quoted, from the Academy of American Poets, includes work of widely divergent influence. Not only does it connect to a variety of currents within the mainstream, from objectivism through confessionalism and the New York School; but it also includes some works (by Richard Hugo, e.g.) that really have not had anything near the influence that some others have had (Rich or Ashbery, e.g. And I am a great admirer of Hugo). Such lists are obviously artifacts of their times, too; thirty years ago I doubt Oppen and Millay wouldn't have made the cut, for instance, and probably not Stein. One reason E. E. Cummings may not be on the list is that--and I know this will not be a popular opinion in some quarters--his work has rapidly faded in any impact it once may have had. With time we're better able to see how limited in sensibility it was. It's not a coincidence that Cummings is often popular among undergraduate writers just starting out--his nose-thumbing attitude toward convention, for many adolescents, successfully masks his aggressive sentimentality, his snobbery, and the essential conventionality of his thought, if not his typography. In contrast, other poets, such as Pound, Williams, or Frost, have had a long-lasting, wide-branching influence upon many poets who often don't even resemble each other greatly. In any case, while I know Cummings has pockets of devoted admirers, over time it's clear he simply hasn't been able to retain his toehold in the canon--I wouldn't be surprised to see him go the way of John Greenleaf Whittier in the anthologies of the future. But that, by definition, is speculation. Maybe Cummings will be turn out to be as persistent as Poe, another minor poet I haven't been able to stomach much since I left my teens. ======================= The list, again: Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Apr 16 11:48:14 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:48:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] great poem Message-ID: Yesterday upon the stair I met a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today I wish that man would go away. --Hughes Mearns From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu Sat Apr 16 11:56:44 2005 From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:56:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] CCCP Message-ID: If any of you subjects of the British empire on this list are going to be at the Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry (and that includes *you* Robin Hamilton!) this coming weekend, I will also be there. Please say hello to me and I will invite you for a beer at The Eagle. I am chairing a panel titled "What Are the Boundaries of Translation?" on Saturday, at 3PM. I have no idea what the answer to that question could be. I'll also be reading at 11AM that day, should anyone be able to make that. Kent From tad at opus40.org Sat Apr 16 12:31:44 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:31:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: Message-ID: <002301c542a1$c9461b70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> 31 Groundbreaking Books of PoetryI don't see any problem in playing it safe with a list like this. My assumption is that it's not for PoBiz folks, and while we may have all heard of "The Maximus Poems," it doesn't necessarily follow that the average lit major has. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry on 4/15/05 5:12 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: OK, I'm ready to stand back and accept the flying brickbats. I'd put Billy Collins' "Picnic, Lightning" on the list. He brought poetry to a new level of public acceptance, when it had what amounts to none. Tad Richards ------------------------ I suspect that one reason the groundbreaking roster concludes nearly 30 years ago is that it takes about that long to sort out what truly *was* groundbreaking, versus what was merely striking at the time, popular or controversial or whatever. A lot of broken ground leads to dead ends. As such, the exercise doesn't much fascinate me, I confess, since it tends either to repeat the obvious (*Song of Myself,* *Howl*, *Life Studies*, *Diving into the Wreck*, and *The Maximus Poems* have been deeply influential on many poets), or else it devolves pretty quickly into current turf-warring. See, for example, Ron Silliman's recent attempt to redefine *Life Studies* as a dead end as compared to the fresh flowering of *The Lunch Poems*. I like Collins's work and will throw no brickbats at him or his readers, but for me the jury's still out on his curious career. It does seem to me that the list Jeff quoted, from the Academy of American Poets, includes work of widely divergent influence. Not only does it connect to a variety of currents within the mainstream, from objectivism through confessionalism and the New York School; but it also includes some works (by Richard Hugo, e.g.) that really have not had anything near the influence that some others have had (Rich or Ashbery, e.g. And I am a great admirer of Hugo). Such lists are obviously artifacts of their times, too; thirty years ago I doubt Oppen and Millay wouldn't have made the cut, for instance, and probably not Stein. One reason E. E. Cummings may not be on the list is that--and I know this will not be a popular opinion in some quarters--his work has rapidly faded in any impact it once may have had. With time we're better able to see how limited in sensibility it was. It's not a coincidence that Cummings is often popular among undergraduate writers just starting out--his nose-thumbing attitude toward convention, for many adolescents, successfully masks his aggressive sentimentality, his snobbery, and the essential conventionality of his thought, if not his typography. In contrast, other poets, such as Pound, Williams, or Frost, have had a long-lasting, wide-branching influence upon many poets who often don't even resemble each other greatly. In any case, while I know Cummings has pockets of devoted admirers, over time it's clear he simply hasn't been able to retain his toehold in the canon--I wouldn't be surprised to see him go the way of John Greenleaf Whittier in the anthologies of the future. But that, by definition, is speculation. Maybe Cummings will be turn out to be as persistent as Poe, another minor poet I haven't been able to stomach much since I left my teens. ======================= The list, again: Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 12:39:39 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:39:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: Message-ID: <00bc01c542a2$e2f21be0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> 31 Groundbreaking Books of PoetryYour response in general, and to Cummings, David, is due to your complete inability to perceive the value of any technique in poetry that was not in wide use fifty or more years ago. I admit to being just as bad about not being able to see any significant difference between one conventional free verser and another, or between one formalist and another. Here's something to consider: if someone not able to speak English were shown a mixture of copies of ten poems by each of the poets certified by the American Academy of Poets and copies of ten poems by Cummings, with no names on any of the poems, and asked to sort them, into as many piles as he thought possible, or none, what would be the result? And why would the fact that he would almost certainly sort them into two piles be meaningless? As for whether or not Cummings's poems will last as long as Poe's, I would call it certain. Except for Kenneth Patchen's, his work is the only work in the first half of the twentieth century with any significant direct appeal to the eye, and there ARE people who appreciate that. Of course, I have a vested interest in saying this, for I'm giving a presentation on Cummings's influence in Boston 27 May (I think) at the ALA conference, and out to get people to buy tickets to that. I will probably be posting a copy of my presentation at my blog after giving it. I'll let New-Poetry know when it's up although I doubt it will cause anyone to stop claiming I never argue on behalf of the poets I prefer to the favorites of the stasguards. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry on 4/15/05 5:12 PM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: OK, I'm ready to stand back and accept the flying brickbats. I'd put Billy Collins' "Picnic, Lightning" on the list. He brought poetry to a new level of public acceptance, when it had what amounts to none. Tad Richards ------------------------ I suspect that one reason the groundbreaking roster concludes nearly 30 years ago is that it takes about that long to sort out what truly *was* groundbreaking, versus what was merely striking at the time, popular or controversial or whatever. A lot of broken ground leads to dead ends. As such, the exercise doesn't much fascinate me, I confess, since it tends either to repeat the obvious (*Song of Myself,* *Howl*, *Life Studies*, *Diving into the Wreck*, and *The Maximus Poems* have been deeply influential on many poets), or else it devolves pretty quickly into current turf-warring. See, for example, Ron Silliman's recent attempt to redefine *Life Studies* as a dead end as compared to the fresh flowering of *The Lunch Poems*. I like Collins's work and will throw no brickbats at him or his readers, but for me the jury's still out on his curious career. It does seem to me that the list Jeff quoted, from the Academy of American Poets, includes work of widely divergent influence. Not only does it connect to a variety of currents within the mainstream, from objectivism through confessionalism and the New York School; but it also includes some works (by Richard Hugo, e.g.) that really have not had anything near the influence that some others have had (Rich or Ashbery, e.g. And I am a great admirer of Hugo). Such lists are obviously artifacts of their times, too; thirty years ago I doubt Oppen and Millay wouldn't have made the cut, for instance, and probably not Stein. One reason E. E. Cummings may not be on the list is that--and I know this will not be a popular opinion in some quarters--his work has rapidly faded in any impact it once may have had. With time we're better able to see how limited in sensibility it was. It's not a coincidence that Cummings is often popular among undergraduate writers just starting out--his nose-thumbing attitude toward convention, for many adolescents, successfully masks his aggressive sentimentality, his snobbery, and the essential conventionality of his thought, if not his typography. In contrast, other poets, such as Pound, Williams, or Frost, have had a long-lasting, wide-branching influence upon many poets who often don't even resemble each other greatly. In any case, while I know Cummings has pockets of devoted admirers, over time it's clear he simply hasn't been able to retain his toehold in the canon--I wouldn't be surprised to see him go the way of John Greenleaf Whittier in the anthologies of the future. But that, by definition, is speculation. Maybe Cummings will be turn out to be as persistent as Poe, another minor poet I haven't been able to stomach much since I left my teens. ======================= The list, again: Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 13:32:05 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:32:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <002301c542a1$c9461b70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00ee01c542aa$3603a810$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry I don't see any problem in playing it safe with a list like this. My assumption is that it's not for PoBiz folks, and while we may have all heard of "The Maximus Poems," it doesn't necessarily follow that the average lit major has. I wonder if you would think that if the list contained nothing but books by language poets. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Apr 16 13:35:16 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:35:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <002301c542a1$c9461b70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <00ee01c542aa$3603a810$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005e01c542aa$a9c794f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> 31 Groundbreaking Books of PoetryWho were the language poets that American readers in the 19th and early 20th centuries should have been reading instead of Whitman, Dickinson, Eliot or Crane? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry I don't see any problem in playing it safe with a list like this. My assumption is that it's not for PoBiz folks, and while we may have all heard of "The Maximus Poems," it doesn't necessarily follow that the average lit major has. I wonder if you would think that if the list contained nothing but books by language poets. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 13:49:35 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:49:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <002301c542a1$c9461b70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><00ee01c542aa$3603a810$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005e01c542aa$a9c794f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <010f01c542ac$a73f9fa0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> 31 Groundbreaking Books of PoetryWho were the language poets that American readers in the 19th and early 20th centuries should have been reading instead of Whitman, Dickinson, Eliot or Crane? Tad Richards E.E. Cummings, for one. Stein, too, whom the academy mention because it would have been horribly politically incorrect no to. But you miss my point, as you almost always do. It is that you wouldn't have been so tolerant of a list the American Academy of Poets made of groundbreaking books if only books by language poets were on it. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Sat Apr 16 13:55:22 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] CCCP In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050416175522.35040.qmail@web54603.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Kent, Would you mind to let me know if it miraculously happens to find that secret door crossing the boundaries of translation? I'm about to break my head every time I approach them consciously or subconsciously... (I can?t help remembering ?All understanding is translation?... and I find myself having some difficulties to understand this, that, and the other rather frequently!) (And something funny -- I can?t force myself to see CCCP as an abbreviation in English? it stands boldly in Cyrillic every time I put my eyes on this subject line?) Rosie Kent Johnson wrote: If any of you subjects of the British empire on this list are going to be at the Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry (and that includes *you* Robin Hamilton!) this coming weekend, I will also be there. Please say hello to me and I will invite you for a beer at The Eagle. I am chairing a panel titled "What Are the Boundaries of Translation?" on Saturday, at 3PM. I have no idea what the answer to that question could be. I'll also be reading at 11AM that day, should anyone be able to make that. Kent _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 16 14:20:18 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:20:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <00bc01c542a2$e2f21be0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/16/05 11:39 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: Your response in general, and to Cummings, David, is due to your complete inability to perceive the value of any technique in poetry that was not in wide use fifty or more years ago. I admit to being just as bad about not being able to see any significant difference between one conventional free verser and another, or between one formalist and another. ------------------------------- Seems to me you confuse a preference with ignorance, but we have some deeper disagreements, I think. The "groundbreaking" metaphor has more than one component, as I see it. Novelty of technique is certainly one, but depth or originality of content are others, along with freshness of treatment. I think your dogged focus on technique as central to poetic value leads fairly predictably to an over-valuing of Cummings's poems, which are often embarrassingly sentimental. But there's another aspect to breaking ground that I was addressing--the metaphor suggests that ground is broken in order to lead to new and lasting growth. That's the criterion by which poets such as Whitman are easily deemed major: their influence is huge, long-lasting, and spread across the aesthetic spectrum. Cummings's influence is, as I suggested, nothing like that. Over time, he's simply not been absorbed into the mainstream, as Whitman and Dickinson have been, as Eliot and Pound were, etc. His influence remains relatively marginal. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 16 14:29:19 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:29:19 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] CCCP References: <20050416175522.35040.qmail@web54603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c542b2$34a88b40$18ab3852@ANNY> Kent_ Hi Rosie, thank you for bringing this up. I would also be interested in what the speakers will be saying on translation in Cambridge. Let us know Kent, please, if they are planning to publish the speeches. Thanks, RE.: CCCP, I first thought Kent was going to Russia. Take care, Anny From: Rosie Shkodrov Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:55 PM Hey Kent, Would you mind to let me know if it miraculously happens to find that secret door crossing the boundaries of translation? I'm about to break my head every time I approach them consciously or subconsciously... (I can't help remembering "All understanding is translation"... and I find myself having some difficulties to understand this, that, and the other rather frequently!) (And something funny -- I can't force myself to see CCCP as an abbreviation in English. it stands boldly in Cyrillic every time I put my eyes on this subject line.) Rosie Kent Johnson wrote: If any of you subjects of the British empire on this list are going to be at the Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry (and that includes *you* Robin Hamilton!) this coming weekend, I will also be there. Please say hello to me and I will invite you for a beer at The Eagle. I am chairing a panel titled "What Are the Boundaries of Translation?" on Saturday, at 3PM. I have no idea what the answer to that question could be. I'll also be reading at 11AM that day, should anyone be able to make that. Kent _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 14:45:58 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:45:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: Message-ID: <013001c542b4$8804a740$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> 31 Groundbreaking Books of PoetryYour response in general, and to Cummings, David, is due to your complete inability to perceive the value of any technique in poetry that was not in wide use fifty or more years ago. I admit to being just as bad about not being able to see any significant difference between one conventional free verser and another, or between one formalist and another. Seems to me you confuse a preference with ignorance, but we have some deeper disagreements, I think. Nothing you ever said at New-Poetry while I've been part of it indicates any understanding of what burstnorm poets are up to, David. Some of your parodies especially show your ignorance. The "groundbreaking" metaphor has more than one component, as I see it. Novelty of technique is certainly one, but depth or originality of content are others, along with freshness of treatment. I think your dogged focus on technique as central to poetic value leads fairly predictably to an over-valuing of Cummings's poems, which are often embarrassingly sentimental. I agree that "groundbreaking" is a tricky term to work with--but surely the value of Cummings's poems has nothing to do with how groundbreaking they are. I probably agree with you on the excessive sentimentality of many of Cummings's poems. I also dislike his excessively cynical ones. But there's another aspect to breaking ground that I was addressing--the metaphor suggests that ground is broken in order to lead to new and lasting growth. That's the criterion by which poets such as Whitman are easily deemed major: their influence is huge, long-lasting, and spread across the aesthetic spectrum. I grant that Whitman broke American poetry out of the formalism it was stuck in--though, interestingly, not into the formalism he practiced. (That's an impression. Did anyone write psalms after Whitman? What seems to have happened is that he was ignored for fifty years or more, until the free versers took his example to break wholly out of formalism, with Williams being the final and best of the nearprose anti-formalists. Pound was as good an anti-formalist as Willliams but went way beyond it. But after Whitman, who else? Most of the ones on the Academy list only had followers into slightly different subject matter or attitudes. So what? Cummings's influence is, as I suggested, nothing like that. Over time, he's simply not been absorbed into the mainstream, as Whitman and Dickinson have been, as Eliot and Pound were, etc. His influence remains relatively marginal. Only if you think the mainstream more important than the otherstream. And the kind of influence some secondary poets have as more important than poets who change the way poetry is written so much that there are arguments about whether the results are poetry or not. Aside from that, Cummings was too innovative to be as easily mainstreamed as even Pound and Eliot. And expressed himself in two different languages, which is something that the excessively verbal English departments who determine what the mainstream is can't deal with. An amusing side-factor is that the language poets, who were greatly influenced by Cummings and are now becoming mainstream, have never acknowledged the importance of Cummings because he was a right-winger. Hey, you're an expert on the American Academy of Poets. Was Cummings even a member of it? If he was not, that may be another factor that kept him off its list. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 16 14:57:07 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:57:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath Message-ID: <127.5a608593.2f92ba03@aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/books/chapters/0417-1st-oates.html Uncensored Sylvia Plath The Unabridged Journals of Sylvia Plath Edited by Karen V. Kukil Who in February 1963 could have predicted, when a thirty-year-old American poet named Sylvia Plath committed suicide in London, distraught over the breakup of her marriage to the Yorkshire poet Ted Hughes, that Plath would quickly emerge as one of the most celebrated and controversial of postwar poets writing in English; and this in a golden era of poetry distinguished by such figures as Theodore Roethke, Marianne Moore, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Lowell, Richard Wilbur, Allen Ginsberg, Anne Sexton, John Berryman, May Swenson, Adrienne Rich, as well as W. H. Auden and T. S. Eliot? At the time of Plath's premature death she had published a single volume of poems that had received only moderate attention, The Colossus (1960), and a first novel, the Salingeresque The Bell Jar (which appeared a month before her death in England, under the pseudonym "Victoria Lucas"), -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 16 15:39:30 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:39:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry Message-ID: <1b8.1153b0c1.2f92c3f2@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/2005 11:37:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo This choice to me is the most interesting. Hugo is a wonderful poet. I need a Hugo fix now and again. There's a good Watershed recording that I have to pop into a tape deck ever other year or so. It gives one a good sense of his sensibility and voice (that nebulous word for which there is no better substitute). He's generally considered in the shadow of Roethke...so it's a little surprising to see him running with such fast company. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 16 16:27:00 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:27:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <00bc01c542a2$e2f21be0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42613CD4.13749.108D9D@localhost> On 16 Apr 2005 at 12:39, Bob Grumman wrote: > Here's something to consider: if someone not able to speak English > were shown a mixture of copies of ten poems by each of the poets > certified by the American Academy of Poets and copies of ten poems by > Cummings, with no names on any of the poems, and asked to sort them, > into as many piles as he thought possible, or none, what would be the > result? And why would the fact that he would almost certainly sort > them into two piles be meaningless? Because a non-English speaker judging English-language poetry is meaningless. Marcus From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 16 16:58:04 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:58:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] those who can do... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42617C5C.9090606@ix.netcom.com> Those who can't translate. When Plato called him a dog Diogenes replied Quite true, for I come back over and over again to those who have sold me.? > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 16 17:23:19 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:23:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] CCCP References: Message-ID: <006d01c542ca$83692420$f09c9951@Robin> > If any of you subjects of the British empire on this list are going to > be at the Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry (and that includes > *you* Robin Hamilton!) this coming weekend, I will also be there. I'll try, I'll try, promise I'll try (after all, Cambridge is only a couple of hours away from me on the train) but agorophobia is a singularly Catch-22 situation. If i could manage to get out of the house to consult my doctor ... You're chairing a panel on April 23rd, right? See you there if I make it (which I have to confess is singularly unlikely). R. From tad at opus40.org Sat Apr 16 18:22:24 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:22:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <42613CD4.13749.108D9D@localhost> Message-ID: <005c01c542d2$c6d57350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Actually, a non-English speaker would probably pick Whitman. His lines would look most different on the page. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: "Bob Grumman" ; "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry > On 16 Apr 2005 at 12:39, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Here's something to consider: if someone not able to speak English >> were shown a mixture of copies of ten poems by each of the poets >> certified by the American Academy of Poets and copies of ten poems by >> Cummings, with no names on any of the poems, and asked to sort them, >> into as many piles as he thought possible, or none, what would be the >> result? And why would the fact that he would almost certainly sort >> them into two piles be meaningless? > > Because a non-English speaker judging English-language poetry is > meaningless. > > Marcus > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 18:50:23 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:50:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <42613CD4.13749.108D9D@localhost> <005c01c542d2$c6d57350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01b501c542d6$ad3c1e40$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Actually, a non-English speaker would probably pick Whitman. His lines > would look most different on the page. Why? Because some are long? I doubt anyone would think Whitman's poems unusual-looking enough to separate them from others' poems. And there is much more visually unusual about Cummings's poems than their look on the page--though you wouldn't be too aware of it from the anthologies you would have seen that have poems in them by Cummings. Punctuation marks inside words, unusual capitalizations and lower-casing, etc. But let me change my suggestion slightly. Mix ten of the least conventional--looking poems of each poet. And leave out Olson, who was clearly influenced by Cummings though you'll never hear his admirers admit it. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Sat Apr 16 19:19:10 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:19:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <42613CD4.13749.108D9D@localhost><005c01c542d2$c6d57350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01b501c542d6$ad3c1e40$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <007c01c542da$b4a67a00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> This non-English speaker is, however, conversant with English punctuation and capitalization rules? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry > > >> Actually, a non-English speaker would probably pick Whitman. His lines >> would look most different on the page. > > Why? Because some are long? I doubt anyone would think Whitman's poems > unusual-looking enough to separate them from others' poems. And there is > much more visually unusual about Cummings's poems than their look on the > page--though you wouldn't be too aware of it from the anthologies you > would have seen that have poems in them by Cummings. Punctuation marks > inside words, unusual capitalizations and lower-casing, etc. But let me > change my suggestion slightly. Mix ten of the least conventional--looking > poems of each poet. And leave out Olson, who was clearly influenced by > Cummings though you'll never hear his admirers admit it. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 19:33:23 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:33:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <42613CD4.13749.108D9D@localhost><005c01c542d2$c6d57350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><01b501c542d6$ad3c1e40$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <007c01c542da$b4a67a00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01c001c542dc$aecaece0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > This non-English speaker is, however, conversant with English punctuation > and capitalization rules? The non-English speaker would find poems with words like "w,o!(run-S);Olf" significantly different from poems with words like "wolf" and "runs," Oh Blind One, regardless of his knowledge of English punctuation (which isn't all that different from other Western languages, even Spanish with its upside-downers). (Note: my example is not from Cummings but based on Cummings's practice; I was too lazy to hunt up an example from his poetry, and don't have much of a memory for poetry so couldn't quote without a copy of his poetry at hand.) --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 16 20:38:57 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:38:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <01c001c542dc$aecaece0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <426177E1.28018.F73921@localhost> > > This non-English speaker is, however, conversant with English > > punctuation and capitalization rules? On 16 Apr 2005 at 19:33, Bob Grumman wrote: > The non-English speaker would find poems with words like > "w,o!(run-S);Olf" significantly different from poems with words like > "wolf" and "runs," Oh Blind One, regardless of his knowledge of > English punctuation (which isn't all that different from other Western > languages, even Spanish with its upside-downers). (Note: my example > is not from Cummings but based on Cummings's practice; I was too lazy > to hunt up an example from his poetry, and don't have much of a memory > for poetry so couldn't quote without a copy of his poetry at hand.) This is absurd! The last time I heard this kind of crap it was Peter Munro who claimed that he could understand the poetry of languages he couldn't understand. What Grumman is arguing is that any non-English speaker who was familiar enough with what English poetry looks like on the page to be able to distinguish the grammar and punctuation rules of English would pick Cummings out of a pile of poems. Such specialized knowledge ought to disqualify such a person from the test in the first place, since Grumman's hypothetical was to try to establish how different Cummings was, how groundbreaking his work was, so that EVEN someone NOT familiar with such rules would recognize that it was different. But in fact it turns out, on reflection, that what Cummings did REQUIRES knowledge such a non- English speaker as Grumman postulated could NOT have. Once again Grumman shoots himself in the foot. But this makes me wonder what it is that Grumman does for a living -- something he's proud of doing, something important to him, so I can claim that I'm an expert in HIS field just because I've heard of it, though I'll claim I don't have much memory for his kind of work, and am too lazy to find anything much out about it, but I'll be supremely confident that I'm better at it than he is, on the theory that if Grumman can be so supremely confident about everything I can be supremely confident about being better than he is at whatever it is he may happen to do that he's proud of in the world. So, anyone know what Grumman either does for a living, or is proud of doing? Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 21:15:11 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:15:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <426177E1.28018.F73921@localhost> Message-ID: <01dc01c542ea$e72ca390$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> > This non-English speaker is, however, conversant with English >> > punctuation and capitalization rules? > > On 16 Apr 2005 at 19:33, Bob Grumman wrote: >> The non-English speaker would find poems with words like >> "w,o!(run-S);Olf" significantly different from poems with words like >> "wolf" and "runs," Oh Blind One, regardless of his knowledge of >> English punctuation (which isn't all that different from other Western >> languages, even Spanish with its upside-downers). (Note: my example >> is not from Cummings but based on Cummings's practice; I was too lazy >> to hunt up an example from his poetry, and don't have much of a memory >> for poetry so couldn't quote without a copy of his poetry at hand.) > > This is absurd! The last time I heard this kind of crap it was Peter > Munro who claimed that he could understand the poetry of languages he > couldn't understand. What Grumman is arguing is that any non-English > speaker who was familiar enough with what English poetry looks like > on the page to be able to distinguish the grammar and punctuation > rules of English would pick Cummings out of a pile of poems. Such > specialized knowledge ought to disqualify such a person from the test > in the first place, since Grumman's hypothetical was to try to > establish how different Cummings was, how groundbreaking his work > was, so that EVEN someone NOT familiar with such rules would > recognize that it was different. But in fact it turns out, on > reflection, that what Cummings did REQUIRES knowledge such a non- > English speaker as Grumman postulated could NOT have. Once again > Grumman shoots himself in the foot. Pick out the item that is different from the others: xiod qhty mrkk kkls a,!p oooy blxi > But this makes me wonder what it is that Grumman does for a living -- > something he's proud of doing, something important to him, so I can > claim that I'm an expert in HIS field just because I've heard of it, > though I'll claim I don't have much memory for his kind of work, and > am too lazy to find anything much out about it, but I'll be supremely > confident that I'm better at it than he is, on the theory that if > Grumman can be so supremely confident about everything I can be > supremely confident about being better than he is at whatever it is > he may happen to do that he's proud of in the world. > > So, anyone know what Grumman either does for a living, or is proud of > doing? Seems to me like some kind of personal attack going on here, but it can't be because Marcus is above such things. --Bob G. From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 22:13:26 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:13:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <01c001c542dc$aecaece0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <42613CD4.13749.108D9D@localhost> <005c01c542d2$c6d57350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01b501c542d6$ad3c1e40$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <007c01c542da$b4a67a00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01c001c542dc$aecaece0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a050416191360fcdcf2@mail.gmail.com> Absurd. Completely absurd. You assume way too much here, Bob. You ask us to believe that a non-English speaker would be somehow grounded in English grammar and syntax? This is crazy. I may look at say, Russian poetry, and think, "Wow, patterns in the sentences." But who cares? You can't be seriously asserting that poetry is syntax, are you? Jeff Newberry On 4/16/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > This non-English speaker is, however, conversant with English > punctuation > > and capitalization rules? > > The non-English speaker would find poems with words like "w,o!(run-S);Olf" > significantly different from poems with words like "wolf" and "runs," Oh > Blind One, regardless of his knowledge of English punctuation (which isn't > all that different from other Western languages, even Spanish with its > upside-downers). (Note: my example is not from Cummings but based on > Cummings's practice; I was too lazy to hunt up an example from his poetry, > and don't have much of a memory for poetry so couldn't quote without a > copy > of his poetry at hand.) > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Sat Apr 16 22:29:07 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:29:07 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <731bb17a050416191360fcdcf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <04fa01c542f5$41ccaac0$25351c40@Emily> Jeff (and all), I don't think he's really talking about grammar or syntax as much as conventions of punctuation and spelling. That said, the whole argument is still pretty absurd. "There is nothing new under the sun" said an old Hebrew dude a really long time ago. I think the list owner (Finnegan?) needs to establish a new new poetry list and rename this one Grumman-Bales. (You know, many of you, I'm sure, already refer to New Poetry not as New Poetry, but as "the Bob Grumman list." Let's make it official!, and give Bales his props, even if he is the less entertaining of the two...) Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 16 22:44:22 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:44:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: <42613CD4.13749.108D9D@localhost><005c01c542d2$c6d57350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><01b501c542d6$ad3c1e40$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><007c01c542da$b4a67a00$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><01c001c542dc$aecaece0$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a050416191360fcdcf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <024301c542f7$5d704000$27b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Absurd. Completely absurd. You assume way too much here, Bob. You ask us to believe that a non-English speaker would be somehow grounded in English grammar and syntax? This is crazy. I may look at say, Russian poetry, and think, "Wow, patterns in the sentences." But who cares? You can't be seriously asserting that poetry is syntax, are you? Jeff Newberry No. I am stating that if someone not speaking English were to sort a mixture containing ten poems each from the people whose books were in the American Academy of Poets' list and ten of Cummings's less conventional-looking poems, that person would sort them into two groups, one containing Cummings's poems, the other containing the other poems--BECAUSE THE TWO KINDS OF POEMS WOULD LOOK EXTREMELY DIFFERENT TO ANYONE CAPABLE OF RECOGNIZING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PUNCTUATION MARKS AND LETTERS, AND COULD SEE SPACES, AND TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UPPER- AND LOWER-CASE LETTERS. True, I assumed someone familiar with a language using our alphabet and and punctuation marks, and without punctuation marks generally inside words. Only a verosopath or an extremely stupid person would assume I meant a 15th-century Aztec, however. --Bob G. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sat Apr 16 13:34:06 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 01:34:06 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (Bob Grumman) re: E.E. In-Reply-To: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Cummings solved the problem of how to create a cubist poem. If burstnorm means anything it means breakthroughs in perception. The ability of the mind to see the world anew and to make an artwork that embodies this perception requires genius. Those who believe that such aesthetic burstnorms can be achieved only by those affiliated with the Radical Left are confounded by E.E. Cummings. R i c h a r d D i l l o n An amusing side-factor is that the language poets, who were greatly influenced by Cummings and are now becoming mainstream, have never acknowledged the importance of Cummings because he was a right-winger. B o b G r u m m a n -- From bardo at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 08:13:56 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:13:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (Bob Grumman) re: E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER> These political carpings seem ridiculous. Most innovative poets acknowledge the influence of Pound, most certainly a right-winger. Plenty of liberal prose writers learned a lot from Kerouac, who veered right in his later years. Heidegger, a Nazi toad, wrote perceptively and influentially about language and poetry. Read the works, not the authors. "Cummings solved the problem of how to create a cubist poem." Perhaps, Richard--but after his initial success as a 'cubist' painter, though few contemporary artists paint themselves into that corner. Actually, Stein may have "solved the problem" a decade or so earlier than e.e.c. (see http://www.webdelsol.com/The_Potomac/issue2/galvin02.htm). Cummings (and Dylan Thomas), great fun to read and significant in themselves if short on disciples, rarely seem stylistically influential beyond highschool--perhaps because they had such distinct voices that their influence might seem a taint, mere aping. Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? To get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a pranksterish poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as necessary to 'real' poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go.) Olson's layout of the poem arises from a different--an auditory--motivation. ~ Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 1:34 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (Bob Grumman) re: E.E. > Cummings solved the problem of how to create a cubist poem. If burstnorm > means anything it means breakthroughs in perception. The ability of the > mind to see the world anew and to make an artwork that embodies this > perception requires genius. Those who believe that such aesthetic > burstnorms can be achieved only by those affiliated with the Radical Left > are confounded by E.E. Cummings. > > R i c h a r d D i l l o n > > > > An amusing side-factor is that the language poets, who were greatly > influenced by Cummings and are now becoming mainstream, have never > acknowledged the importance of Cummings because he was a right-winger. > > B o b G r u m m a n > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 09:22:55 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:22:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (Bob Grumman)re: E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > "Cummings solved the problem of how to create a cubist poem." Perhaps, > Richard--but after his initial success as a 'cubist' painter, though few > contemporary artists paint themselves into that corner. Actually, Stein > may have "solved the problem" a decade or so earlier than e.e.c. (see > http://www.webdelsol.com/The_Potomac/issue2/galvin02.htm). I don't see Cummings as a cubist myself, though I guess he was in some of his things. He pioneered in visual poetry and infraverbal poetry (a central concern in the poetry that can be made of linguistic units smaller than words). > Cummings (and Dylan Thomas), great fun to read and significant in > themselves if short on disciples, Sorry, no. Short on disciples certified by the American Academy of Poets, APR, the New Yorker, Harvard and the NY Times. >rarely seem stylistically influential beyond highschool--perhaps because >they had such distinct voices that their influence might seem a taint, mere >aping. True, especailly with Cummings. This kept them from having immediate followers. When I took a course in college from Ann Stanford at Cal State Northridge in the seventies, she had us write a poem in emulation of some well-known poet, but wouldn't let us emulate Cummings. To the stasguards then and probably now, any on E who plays with the language typographically is a weak imitation of Cummings--because the stasguard doesn't understand what he was doing well enough to see how others could use his methods to make very different poems, the way Frost can be said to have made very different poems from Hardy's although he used Hardy's methods slavishly, or so it seems to me. >Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? To >get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a pranksterish >poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as necessary to 'real' >poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go. That's what they seem to those with no understanding whatever of what he was doing, and hateful of any deviation from their norms.. > Olson's layout of the poem arises from a different--an > auditory--motivation. > > ~ Dan Zimmerman Cummings was, as far as I know, the first American poet significantly to use flow-breaks (gaps or spaces in lines) not resulting from standard lineation. His poetry thus served as a model for letting the needs of a poem decide where its words and letters would be on a page rather that a pre-set form, like the one even free verse to that time adhered to. Who knows what Olson knew of him, but it had to be helpful that at least one well-known poet was treating the page as an "open field" for Olson, and all the others who now do this as a matter of course. Or did Pound precede Cummings in this area? Sure, the language poets eventually accepted Pound, the rightwinger, but it took a while, and they absorbed so much from him, they couldn't keep refusing to acknowledge him as a predecessor forever. But they still reject Cummings due to his politics because they also despise his poetic subjects--spring, love, snowflakes, etc.--and impassioned affirmations, and don't realize how much of what they do is from him. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 17 09:30:51 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:30:51 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] different views References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <002301c54351$ac8338a0$882bb750@ANNY> _You take pictures with your own culture, but the one who looks at it has a different culture, his own; it is the sum of the one with the other that can transform the result into a vision completely different from the departing one._ Interview to Gianni Berengo Gardin by Peter Paul Kainrath (I'm translating it at the moment) Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 09:38:27 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:38:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (BobGrumman)re: E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER> <005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (BobGrumman)re: E.E. Dan Zimmerman wrote: >>Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? To >>get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a pranksterish >>poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as necessary to 'real' >>poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go.) Bob Grumman replied: > That's what they seem to those with no understanding whatever of what he > was doing, and hateful of any deviation from their norms.. I'd respond better to instruction than to insult, Bob. Do you assume I hate deviation from (my?) 'norms'? On what basis? Your spleen seems gratuitous. ~ Dan Zimmerman > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 09:44:32 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:44:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Zimmerman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry (BobGrumman)re:E.E. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:22 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry > (BobGrumman)re: E.E. > > > > Dan Zimmerman wrote: > >>>Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? To >>>get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a >>>pranksterish poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as necessary >>>to 'real' poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go.) > > Bob Grumman replied: > >> That's what they seem to those with no understanding whatever of what he >> was doing, and hateful of any deviation from their norms.. > > I'd respond better to instruction than to insult, Bob. Do you assume I > hate deviation from (my?) 'norms'? On what basis? Your spleen seems > gratuitous. > > ~ Dan Zimmerman I didn't realize I was insulting you, Dan. You used the word, "seem." so I thought you were giving your opinion as to how ignorant people might take Cummings's innovations. If you think his visual innovations were pranks, then my insult was (inadvertantly) intended. Why should someone who insults Cummings not be insulted back? --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 17 09:56:32 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:56:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NPM17: Mary Kinzie Message-ID: Today's poem is by Mary Kinzie from her collection DRIFT, now in paperback. Her commentary follows.*************************************** Moment, Stay How to look away from what is painful?? ???????????? the stumbling of the light????????????????? that lapse???????????a faint slur ???????????of movement?????????????????at once keen and cottony???????????nothing instant ???????????everything prolonged?????????????????drawn off... To see the earwig ???????????touch the beard of pollen or water dally along the passive ???????????sand, the moon breathe?????????????????in its ring of light?these ???????????as bitter as actually to see ???????????teeth rake across a vein. Then: therefore is the bliss ???????????of holding what one loves so hurry-hollow? Because it is to meet ???????????in shape and moisture and from deep in the eye ???????????the features of a ghost? To whom do we say, DO STAY, FAIR BIRD? *** Kinzie writes:A few words on a poem from the sequence on D?rer?s "Melencolia I" called "Book of Tears": Although this poem paces and spends itself on the page in a non-metrical way that seems to have broken with pre-modern tradition, its origins are bound up with an exemplary early Romantic text and problem. The poem?s title and the related idea of nostalgia for the moment while one is in the moment derive from the terms of Faust?s wager with Mephistopheles in Goethe?s Faust I. When Faust formulates the terms of the wager (never?on pain of having his soul taken off in chains?to say to the passing moment, stay a while, you are so fair), he is prodding himself to resist his tendency to look back upon his happiness as poignant and fleeting even during the moment of its unfolding. Instead, he chooses knowledge and control over a material world to whose moods and landscapes he nevertheless remains intimately attuned. In "Moment, Stay," however, there is no narrative afterwards in which truths are unlocked; only the melancholiac?s chagrin in living through repeating moments of longing for what is almost always already-memory. Hence the pain of the exact but therefore evanescent detail. The ghost visible deep in the eye is perhaps the self?s image (in both senses) in the eyes of another; it may also be the ghostliness of the beloved who can never be adequately appreciated, valued, and understood while the nostalgic appetites of the primary self intervene. The poem?s form is an effort to control time and emphasis with space (a rather different kind of poetic stage-directing than syllable count and stress interval), and perhaps less capable of variety than these, but one with great dramatic breath. But something else shapes the poem. I found that I needed the contribution of rhetorically insistent syntax, too, in the form of questions of varying degrees of implied insight, to register the deepening loss. ?? ? ? ? ? ? ************************************************** >From DRIFT by Mary Kinzie. Copyright ? 2003 by Mary Kinzie. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ************************************************** Related links: About SELECTED POEMS: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFj0DXKYc0Wa0eGV0EY About Mary Kinzie: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFj0DXKYc0Wa0eGW0EZ See and read about D?rer's "Melencolia:" http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFj0DXKYc0Wa0eGX0Ea Discuss "Moment, Stay" on the Knopf Poets Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFj0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Em ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 17 10:30:08 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:30:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER> <006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001f01c54359$f7b3e740$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I actually would have no problem with the inclusion of cummings in this list. But is anyone interested in actually discussing the list, and what might be added or removed? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Zimmerman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:38 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry > (BobGrumman)re:E.E. > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry >> (BobGrumman)re: E.E. >> >> >> >> Dan Zimmerman wrote: >> >>>>Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? To >>>>get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a >>>>pranksterish poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as >>>>necessary to 'real' poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go.) >> >> Bob Grumman replied: >> >>> That's what they seem to those with no understanding whatever of what he >>> was doing, and hateful of any deviation from their norms.. >> >> I'd respond better to instruction than to insult, Bob. Do you assume I >> hate deviation from (my?) 'norms'? On what basis? Your spleen seems >> gratuitous. >> >> ~ Dan Zimmerman > > I didn't realize I was insulting you, Dan. You used the word, "seem." so > I thought you were giving your opinion as to how ignorant people might > take Cummings's innovations. If you think his visual innovations were > pranks, then my insult was (inadvertantly) intended. Why should someone > who insults Cummings not be insulted back? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From hruggier at localnet.com Sun Apr 17 10:40:35 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:40:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath References: <127.5a608593.2f92ba03@aol.com> Message-ID: <005501c5435b$6af78b20$ea0d9942@Helen> Can you post the whole article? ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/books/chapters/0417-1st-oates.html Uncensored Sylvia Plath The Unabridged Journals of Sylvia Plath Edited by Karen V. Kukil Who in February 1963 could have predicted, when a thirty-year-old American poet named Sylvia Plath committed suicide in London, distraught over the breakup of her marriage to the Yorkshire poet Ted Hughes, that Plath would quickly emerge as one of the most celebrated and controversial of postwar poets writing in English; and this in a golden era of poetry distinguished by such figures as Theodore Roethke, Marianne Moore, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Lowell, Richard Wilbur, Allen Ginsberg, Anne Sexton, John Berryman, May Swenson, Adrienne Rich, as well as W. H. Auden and T. S. Eliot? At the time of Plath's premature death she had published a single volume of poems that had received only moderate attention, The Colossus (1960), and a first novel, the Salingeresque The Bell Jar (which appeared a month before her death in England, under the pseudonym "Victoria Lucas"), ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 10:49:09 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:49:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books ofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001f01c54359$f7b3e740$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <002601c5435c$9d74b1d0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I actually would have no problem with the inclusion of cummings in this >list. > > But is anyone interested in actually discussing the list, and what might > be added or removed? > I am. I started with my general opinion of it. I think we should start by defining "groundbreaking." I think of it as doing something technically valuable and new. I have trouble with thinking of it as introducing new subject matter and/or a new attitude or tone--because I think that's something every good poet MUST do, because he must be a unique individual. But I'm not convinced Frank O'Hara's conversationalism wasn't groundbreaking--though did it go further than Williams's horrible "poem" about the plum in the refirgerator? Both Williams and O'Hara could be said to have given poetry new dictions, I would think, but was that really significant. The three on the list who were unarguably groundbreakers are Whitman, Pound and Eliot. Stein is an interesting case, I think: a definite and influential groundbreaker (Cummings being one of her proteges), but not, in my view, a good poet. More when I look at the list again--if anyone's interested. --Bob G. From bardo at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 11:06:50 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:06:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER> <005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER> <006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> Bob, I see cummings' visual arrangements--as I also see cubism--mainly as pranksterish means to shake up traditional genre expectations by moving 'difficulty' from 'between the lines' to the lines themselves, as a way to trivialize the kinds of difficulty (or gravitas) his more traditional contemporaries might have expected from art while at the same time simplifying the 'content' of the work. I don't mean to trivialize cummings, or cubists, however, by calling their techniques 'pranksterish.' The 'prank' aspect seems to work initially to get audience to look differently at the works' 'subjects'; such 'defamiliarization' (ostranenie) invites more extended and thorough contemplation of the work. I might apply the same term, 'pranksterish,' to some of Donne's uses of the metaphysical conceit, certainly without any pejorative sense. I wouldn't reduce such techniques to 'mere' pranks, but insofar as they seem to say "look how clever I am and how much fun I can have with the medium," the term seems apt. Sometimes, I do find such antics clever, and they contribute to my appreciation of the work as I join in the fun. You probably see aspects of cummings' visual dexterities that others have not perceived--things that you consider especially important in your estimation of his work. A few specific examples of what you believe cummings tried to achieve with his typography would help to lift the onus of ignorance from the shoulders of those who might fail to appreciate the particulars of his subtlety. ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Zimmerman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:38 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry > (BobGrumman)re:E.E. > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry >> (BobGrumman)re: E.E. >> >> >> >> Dan Zimmerman wrote: >> >>>>Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? To >>>>get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a >>>>pranksterish poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as >>>>necessary to 'real' poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go.) >> >> Bob Grumman replied: >> >>> That's what they seem to those with no understanding whatever of what he >>> was doing, and hateful of any deviation from their norms.. >> >> I'd respond better to instruction than to insult, Bob. Do you assume I >> hate deviation from (my?) 'norms'? On what basis? Your spleen seems >> gratuitous. >> >> ~ Dan Zimmerman > > I didn't realize I was insulting you, Dan. You used the word, "seem." so > I thought you were giving your opinion as to how ignorant people might > take Cummings's innovations. If you think his visual innovations were > pranks, then my insult was (inadvertantly) intended. Why should someone > who insults Cummings not be insulted back? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 17 11:25:10 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:25:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books ofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <006601c54361$a7726d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Dan - I'd disagree that getting an audience to look differently at the subject is a prank, although I see what you mean. Getting an audience to look differently at the subject is central to art. But it can ne accomplished by prankish means. The prankster, of course, is also important to art -- Loki, Bacchus, the trickster god of the crossroads. Art's in trouble when it loses its prankish side. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Zimmerman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books ofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. > Bob, > > I see cummings' visual arrangements--as I also see cubism--mainly as > pranksterish means to shake up traditional genre expectations by moving > 'difficulty' from 'between the lines' to the lines themselves, as a way to > trivialize the kinds of difficulty (or gravitas) his more traditional > contemporaries might have expected from art while at the same time > simplifying the 'content' of the work. I don't mean to trivialize > cummings, or cubists, however, by calling their techniques 'pranksterish.' > The 'prank' aspect seems to work initially to get audience to look > differently at the works' 'subjects'; such 'defamiliarization' > (ostranenie) invites more extended and thorough contemplation of the work. > I might apply the same term, 'pranksterish,' to some of Donne's uses of > the metaphysical conceit, certainly without any pejorative sense. I > wouldn't reduce such techniques to 'mere' pranks, but insofar as they seem > to say "look how clever I am and how much fun I can have with the medium," > the term seems apt. Sometimes, I do find such antics clever, and they > contribute to my appreciation of the work as I join in the fun. You > probably see aspects of cummings' visual dexterities that others have not > perceived--things that you consider especially important in your > estimation of his work. A few specific examples of what you believe > cummings tried to achieve with his typography would help to lift the onus > of ignorance from the shoulders of those who might fail to appreciate the > particulars of his subtlety. > > ~ Dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of > Poetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Daniel Zimmerman" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" >> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:38 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry >> (BobGrumman)re:E.E. >> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bob Grumman" >>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry >>> (BobGrumman)re: E.E. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dan Zimmerman wrote: >>> >>>>>Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? >>>>>To get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a >>>>>pranksterish poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as >>>>>necessary to 'real' poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go.) >>> >>> Bob Grumman replied: >>> >>>> That's what they seem to those with no understanding whatever of what >>>> he was doing, and hateful of any deviation from their norms.. >>> >>> I'd respond better to instruction than to insult, Bob. Do you assume I >>> hate deviation from (my?) 'norms'? On what basis? Your spleen seems >>> gratuitous. >>> >>> ~ Dan Zimmerman >> >> I didn't realize I was insulting you, Dan. You used the word, "seem." so >> I thought you were giving your opinion as to how ignorant people might >> take Cummings's innovations. If you think his visual innovations were >> pranks, then my insult was (inadvertantly) intended. Why should someone >> who insults Cummings not be insulted back? >> >> --Bob G. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 17 11:57:26 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:57:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry In-Reply-To: <001f01c54359$f7b3e740$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 4/17/05 9:30 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > > But is anyone interested in actually discussing the list, and what might be > added or removed? An endless debate possible here, I think. Given the fact that "groundbreaking" by definition is only apparent in long-view, the list seems fairly solid to me, if one understands "groundbreaking" to mean that the book in question influenced lots of other poets over a long while, and especially lots who don't always resemble each other closely. *Life Studies*, for instance, really did help usher in a whole slew of poetry that blended formalist control with the personalism of Williams and his heirs. Likewise, I think Wright's *Branch Will Not Break* is as good an example as any of the Deep Image movement, which has been with us for a while, morphing as it goes. More problematic would be a poet like Robert Hayden, who definitely would not have been on the list 30 years ago, despite having written much of his best work by then. It took a good while for his reputation to flower, and for his influence to become clear. A lot of African American poetry, for a long while and even now, has resembled Baraka more than Hayden. But in recent years growing number of poets have looked to Hayden as influence--I'm thinking of Michael Harper, Melvin Dixon, and Elizabeth Alexander, for starters. But even so, Hayden's probably not in the same league as Lowell or Ginsberg in terms of influence, even though I'd argue he's their equal or better as a poet. In the same way as I'd disqualify Cummings from the list, I do question Berryman's inclusion. Who are his heirs? I wonder about Bishop, too. She's a wonderful poet, yet seems in many ways sui generis. For whom did she break the ground? Surely she's in a different league, as influence, from poets like Sexton or Ashbery. I have a hard time thinking of too many poets who should be *added* to the list. Bly? Well, very influential as translator and editor, but as poet? There certainly were a lot of *Snowy Fields* imitations circulating in the early 70s, but my sense of things is that his live influence has faded considerably. James Tate? Tad suggested Billy Collins, and that might be a good guess. We'll see if his style persists and spreads over time, I suppose. ======================= The list, again: Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bardo at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 12:12:34 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:12:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER> <005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER> <006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> <006601c54361$a7726d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <05f001c54368$43f11520$3a95c044@MULDER> Tad, I just meant that one *technique* cummings uses to get his audience to look at things differently strikes me as prankish (his typographical idiosyncrasies, though his grammatical and semantic torsions qualify, too). Such techniques, I think, introduce a kind of discrete, manageable noise into the work as a way to displace the reader's native vague and protean peristaltic grumblings of genre and context expectation. The absence of the letter "e" in Georges Perec's _A Void_, for example, seems a kind of 'noise' that could become practically inaudible after a while (I hope the same will happen visually as I get used to my brand new progressive lenses!). On the other hand, Joyce's playful overdeterminations in _Finnegan's Wake_ keep shrieking (usually with glee) throughout the book. The *goal* of getting an audience to look at something differently need not (though often may, even relentlessly, as in carpe diem poems) involve prankish elements. ~ Dan, Loki fan ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. > Dan - I'd disagree that getting an audience to look differently at the > subject is a prank, although I see what you mean. Getting an audience to > look differently at the subject is central to art. But it can ne > accomplished by prankish means. > > The prankster, of course, is also important to art -- Loki, Bacchus, the > trickster god of the crossroads. Art's in trouble when it loses its > prankish side. > > > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Zimmerman" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books > ofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. > > >> Bob, >> >> I see cummings' visual arrangements--as I also see cubism--mainly as >> pranksterish means to shake up traditional genre expectations by moving >> 'difficulty' from 'between the lines' to the lines themselves, as a way >> to trivialize the kinds of difficulty (or gravitas) his more traditional >> contemporaries might have expected from art while at the same time >> simplifying the 'content' of the work. I don't mean to trivialize >> cummings, or cubists, however, by calling their techniques >> 'pranksterish.' The 'prank' aspect seems to work initially to get >> audience to look differently at the works' 'subjects'; such >> 'defamiliarization' (ostranenie) invites more extended and thorough >> contemplation of the work. I might apply the same term, 'pranksterish,' >> to some of Donne's uses of the metaphysical conceit, certainly without >> any pejorative sense. I wouldn't reduce such techniques to 'mere' pranks, >> but insofar as they seem to say "look how clever I am and how much fun I >> can have with the medium," the term seems apt. Sometimes, I do find such >> antics clever, and they contribute to my appreciation of the work as I >> join in the fun. You probably see aspects of cummings' visual dexterities >> that others have not perceived--things that you consider especially >> important in your estimation of his work. A few specific examples of what >> you believe cummings tried to achieve with his typography would help to >> lift the onus of ignorance from the shoulders of those who might fail to >> appreciate the particulars of his subtlety. >> >> ~ Dan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:44 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of >> Poetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. >> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Daniel Zimmerman" >>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>> >>> Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" >>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:38 AM >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry >>> (BobGrumman)re:E.E. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bob Grumman" >>>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry >>>> (BobGrumman)re: E.E. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dan Zimmerman wrote: >>>> >>>>>>Olson 'influenced' by cummings, Bob, as you claim in an earlier post? >>>>>>To get a typewriter? Cummings' visual innovations seem largely a >>>>>>pranksterish poke in the eye to readers who see 'difficulty' as >>>>>>necessary to 'real' poetry. (You want difficulty? Here you go.) >>>> >>>> Bob Grumman replied: >>>> >>>>> That's what they seem to those with no understanding whatever of what >>>>> he was doing, and hateful of any deviation from their norms.. >>>> >>>> I'd respond better to instruction than to insult, Bob. Do you assume I >>>> hate deviation from (my?) 'norms'? On what basis? Your spleen seems >>>> gratuitous. >>>> >>>> ~ Dan Zimmerman >>> >>> I didn't realize I was insulting you, Dan. You used the word, "seem." >>> so I thought you were giving your opinion as to how ignorant people >>> might take Cummings's innovations. If you think his visual innovations >>> were pranks, then my insult was (inadvertantly) intended. Why should >>> someone who insults Cummings not be insulted back? >>> >>> --Bob G. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 17 12:26:05 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:26:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry References: Message-ID: <00c201c5436a$2a8809c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Bernstein? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:57 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry > on 4/17/05 9:30 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote: > >> >> But is anyone interested in actually discussing the list, and what might >> be >> added or removed? > > > An endless debate possible here, I think. Given the fact that > "groundbreaking" by definition is only apparent in long-view, the list > seems > fairly solid to me, if one understands "groundbreaking" to mean that the > book in question influenced lots of other poets over a long while, and > especially lots who don't always resemble each other closely. > > *Life Studies*, for instance, really did help usher in a whole slew of > poetry that blended formalist control with the personalism of Williams and > his heirs. Likewise, I think Wright's *Branch Will Not Break* is as good > an > example as any of the Deep Image movement, which has been with us for a > while, morphing as it goes. > > More problematic would be a poet like Robert Hayden, who definitely would > not have been on the list 30 years ago, despite having written much of his > best work by then. It took a good while for his reputation to flower, and > for his influence to become clear. A lot of African American poetry, for > a > long while and even now, has resembled Baraka more than Hayden. > > But in recent years growing number of poets have looked to Hayden as > influence--I'm thinking of Michael Harper, Melvin Dixon, and Elizabeth > Alexander, for starters. But even so, Hayden's probably not in the same > league as Lowell or Ginsberg in terms of influence, even though I'd argue > he's their equal or better as a poet. > > In the same way as I'd disqualify Cummings from the list, I do question > Berryman's inclusion. Who are his heirs? > > I wonder about Bishop, too. She's a wonderful poet, yet seems in many > ways > sui generis. For whom did she break the ground? Surely she's in a > different league, as influence, from poets like Sexton or Ashbery. > > I have a hard time thinking of too many poets who should be *added* to > the > list. Bly? Well, very influential as translator and editor, but as poet? > There certainly were a lot of *Snowy Fields* imitations circulating in the > early 70s, but my sense of things is that his live influence has faded > considerably. > > James Tate? > > Tad suggested Billy Collins, and that might be a good guess. We'll see if > his style persists and spreads over time, I suppose. > > > > ======================= > The list, again: > > > Leaves of Grass (1855) by Walt Whitman > > The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson > > North of Boston (1914) by Robert Frost > > Tender Buttons (1915) by Gertrude Stein > > Harmonium (1923) by Wallace Stevens > > Spring and All (1923) by William Carlos Williams > > The Cantos (1925) by Ezra Pound > > The Weary Blues (1926) by Langston Hughes > > The Bridge (1930) by Hart Crane > > Selected Poems (1935) by Marianne Moore > > Collected Sonnets (1941) by Edna St. Vincent Millay > > Four Quartets (1946) by T. S. Eliot > > Trilogy 1944-1946 (1973) by H. D. > > The Waking (1953) by Theodore Roethke > > Howl and Other Poems (1955) by Allen Ginsberg > > Life Studies (1959) by Robert Lowell > > The Bean Eaters (1960) by Gwendolyn Brooks > > The Maximus Poems (1960) by Charles Olson > > A Ballad of Remembrance (1962) by Robert Hayden > > For Love (1962) by Robert Creeley > > The Branch Will Not Break (1963) by James Wright > > 77 Dream Songs (1964) by John Berryman > > Lunch Poems (1964) by Frank O'Hara > > Ariel (1965) by Sylvia Plath > > Live or Die (1966) by Anne Sexton > > Bending the Bow (1968) by Robert Duncan > > Of Being Numerous (1968) by George Oppen > > Diving into the Wreck (1973) by Adrienne Rich > > The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir (1973) by Richard Hugo > > Self Portrait in a Convex Mirror (1975) by John Ashbery > > Geography III (1977) by Elizabeth Bishop > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 12:57:45 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:57:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Academy on Cummings Message-ID: <731bb17a050417095763ea74a7@mail.gmail.com> http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=157 Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 17 13:03:07 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:03:07 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath References: <127.5a608593.2f92ba03@aol.com> <005501c5435b$6af78b20$ea0d9942@Helen> Message-ID: <002f01c5436f$53d81c70$d2ab3452@ANNY> I have it Helen, here it is: April 17, 2005 FIRST CHAPTER 'Uncensored' By JOYCE CAROL OATES ncensored Sylvia Plath The Unabridged Journals of Sylvia Plath Edited by Karen V. Kukil Who in February 1963 could have predicted, when a thirty-year-old American poet named Sylvia Plath committed suicide in London, distraught over the breakup of her marriage to the Yorkshire poet Ted Hughes, that Plath would quickly emerge as one of the most celebrated and controversial of postwar poets writing in English; and this in a golden era of poetry distinguished by such figures as Theodore Roethke, Marianne Moore, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Lowell, Richard Wilbur, Allen Ginsberg, Anne Sexton, John Berryman, May Swenson, Adrienne Rich, as well as W. H. Auden and T. S. Eliot? At the time of Plath's premature death she had published a single volume of poems that had received only moderate attention, The Colossus (1960), and a first novel, the Salingeresque The Bell Jar (which appeared a month before her death in England, under the pseudonym "Victoria Lucas"), in addition to a number of strikingly bold poems in British and American magazines; her second, stronger volume of poems, Ariel, would not appear until 1965, by which time Plath's posthumous fame assured the book widespread attention, superlative reviews, and sales that would eventually make it one of the bestselling volumes of poetry to be published in England and America in the twentieth century. Plath's Collected Poems (1982), assembled and edited by Ted Hughes, would win a Pulitzer Prize. "I am made, crudely, for success," Plath stated matter-of-factly in her journal in April 1958. Yet Plath could not have foreseen that her success would be almost entirely posthumous, and ironic: for, by killing herself impulsively and dying intestate, she delivered her precious fund of work, as well as her two young children Frieda and Nicholas, into the hands of her estranged husband, Hughes, and his proprietary sister Olywn, whom Plath had perceived as her enemies during the final, despairing weeks of her life. As her literary executor, Hughes had the power to publish what he wished of her work, or to publish it in radically "edited" (that is, expurgated) versions, like The Journals of Sylvia Plath (1982); or, if he wished, he might "lose" or even destroy it, as Hughes bluntly acknowledged he had done with two of the journal notebooks written during the last three years of Plath's life. As the surviving, perennially estranged husband, Hughes excised from Plath's journals what he called "nasty bits" and "intimacies," as he had eliminated from Ariel "some of the more personally aggressive poems," with the excuse that he wanted to spare their children further distress. This new, unabridged and unexpurgated edition of the journals assembled by Karen V. Kukil, assistant curator of rare books at Smith College, is "an exact and complete transcript of the twenty-three original manuscripts in the Sylvia Plath Collection," that suggests that the person Ted Hughes most wanted to spare from distress and exposure was himself. The Unabridged Journals document, in obsessive and exhausting detail Plath's undergraduate years at Smith College and her term as a Fulbright fellow at Newnham College, Cambridge; her marriage to Ted Hughes; and two years of teaching and writing in Northampton, Massachusetts, and in Boston. With the exception of appendices and fragments from 1960 to 1962, the most vivid of which describes the birth of Plath's second child, Nicholas, in January 1962, the Journals break off abruptly in November 1959 as Plath and Hughes, their marriage undercut by Plath's suspicions of Hughes's infidelity, prepare to return to England to live. The last entry of the 1959 journal is enigmatic as a typical Plath poem: "A bad day. A bad time. State of mind most important for work. A blithe, itchy eager state where the poem itself, the story itself is supreme." The most memorable of Sylvia Plath's incantatory poems, many of them written during the final, turbulent weeks of her life, read as if they've been chiseled, with a fine surgical instrument, out of Arctic ice. Her language is taut and original; her strategy elliptical; such poems as "Lesbos," "The Munich Mannequins," "Paralytic," "Daddy" (Plath's most notorious poem), and "Edge" (Plath's last poem, written in February 1963), and the prescient "Death & Co." linger long in the memory, with the power of malevolent nursery rhymes. For Plath, "The blood jet is poetry," and readers who might know little of the poet's private life can nonetheless feel the authenticity of Plath's recurring emotions: hurt, bewilderment, rage, stoic calm, bitter resignation. Like the greatest of her predecessors, Emily Dickinson, Plath understood that poetic truth is best told slantwise, in as few words as possible. By contrast, the journals are a tumult of words, and present a very mixed aesthetic experience for even the sympathetic reader. As a corrective to Hughes's "editing," a wholly unedited version of Plath's material would seem justified, in theory at least. Uncritical admirers of Plath will find much here that is fascinating. Other readers may find much that is fascinating and repellent in equal measure. Nor is the book easy to read, for its organization is eccentric: following journal entries for 1959, for instance, we revert jarringly back to a fragment for 1951, listed by the editor as Appendix I. It would have been more practical for scattered fragments to have been integrated chronologically with the journals. The Unabridged Journals is impossible to read without a reliable biography in tandem, for it lacks a simple chronology of Plath's life and the editor's headnotes are scattered and minimal. (Continues...) ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Ruggieri To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath Can you post the whole article? ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/books/chapters/0417-1st-oates.html Uncensored Sylvia Plath The Unabridged Journals of Sylvia Plath Edited by Karen V. Kukil Who in February 1963 could have predicted, when a thirty-year-old American poet named Sylvia Plath committed suicide in London, distraught over the breakup of her marriage to the Yorkshire poet Ted Hughes, that Plath would quickly emerge as one of the most celebrated and controversial of postwar poets writing in English; and this in a golden era of poetry distinguished by such figures as Theodore Roethke, Marianne Moore, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Lowell, Richard Wilbur, Allen Ginsberg, Anne Sexton, John Berryman, May Swenson, Adrienne Rich, as well as W. H. Auden and T. S. Eliot? At the time of Plath's premature death she had published a single volume of poems that had received only moderate attention, The Colossus (1960), and a first novel, the Salingeresque The Bell Jar (which appeared a month before her death in England, under the pseudonym "Victoria Lucas"), ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 13:07:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:07:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books ofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <001401c5436f$e667f290$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob, > > I see cummings' visual arrangements--as I also see cubism--mainly as > pranksterish means to shake up traditional genre expectations by moving > 'difficulty' from 'between the lines' to the lines themselves, as a way to > trivialize the kinds of difficulty (or gravitas) his more traditional > contemporaries might have expected from art while at the same time > simplifying the 'content' of the work. I don't mean to trivialize > cummings, or cubists, however, by calling their techniques 'pranksterish.' > The 'prank' aspect seems to work initially to get audience to look > differently at the works' 'subjects'; such 'defamiliarization' > (ostranenie) invites more extended and thorough contemplation of the work. > I might apply the same term, 'pranksterish,' to some of Donne's uses of > the metaphysical conceit, certainly without any pejorative sense. I > wouldn't reduce such techniques to 'mere' pranks, but insofar as they seem > to say "look how clever I am and how much fun I can have with the medium," > the term seems apt. Sometimes, I do find such antics clever, and they > contribute to my appreciation of the work as I join in the fun. You > probably see aspects of cummings' visual dexterities that others have not > perceived--things that you consider especially important in your > estimation of his work. A few specific examples of what you believe > cummings tried to achieve with his typography would help to lift the onus > of ignorance from the shoulders of those who might fail to appreciate the > particulars of his subtlety. > > ~ Dan That seems a fair appraisal. Apologies for the annoyed remark. I was thinking of a critic--Coblenz, I think--who once parodied Cummings by simply putting words any old place on the page. He claimed Cummings was a fake. I think there was the trivial prankster in Cummings. I also think he liked seriously making his work a little difficult to read. There's evidence, shown in a book called Cummings as Painter, or something close to that, that indicates that he seriously distributed textual elements to make a design of aesthetic value. I find his best use of unconventional flow-breaks to be in the service of "disconcealment" (A word I coined some thutty year ago and possibly my first literary coinage). Disconcealment is simply breaking a word into one or more fragments that reveal, or take out of concealment, smaller words of connotational value to the poem they are in. A worn example is falling leaf poem: l(a le af fa ll s) one l iness The disconcealments, in order, are of the numeral l, one, the numeral l, again, and I-ness (individuality) as well as one-ness. But note, too, the "one-letter rhymes" the initial els make, and the little flip of "af" to "fa"--all inside the pretty little 1/3/1/3/1 form. The main intention of the poem, though, is to get the eye to follow it downward exactly as it would follow a leaf's fall (taking a while to make up just what the leaf was). The over-all verbal metaphor--a juxtaphor in Grummanese--is of falling leaf as loneliness, which Cummings's fusion of leaf and state makes all the more . . . a single thing. But it more powerfully juxtaphorically depicts a falling leaf as an erratic gapped trickle down a page of textual elements. I consider this poem up there with the best American poems of alltime, partly, I suppose, because it was the poem that first made me aware of, and permanently enamoured of visual poetry. But do have reservations about it. My biggest is that it is a "mere" visual onomatopoeia--which is to say that what is says verbally is duplicated by its visual appearance instead of added to by the latter. Many Cummings fans would kill me for saying so, but his poem would be better as l(a map le le af ) one l iness The charming af/fa is lost in this version, but le/le is almost as good, and the visual arrangement adds to rather than repeats the poem's text. The poem also seems a mite sentimental to me since loneliness is not a state that means much to me, but I know it can to others, and think the defamiliarization of the language dampens the melancholyl boo hoo that the poem might otherwise excessively express. I hope what I've said makes sense and is interesting. It is not the first such exploration of Cummings I've posted here, one of them very recently, so I hope people will remember it when I'm misrepresented as "never" quoting poets I favor and commenting on their work. I'll try to post more once I get into my Cummings presentation for ALA. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 13:11:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:11:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books ofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <003901c54370$7d85dc50$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Oh, and thanks for continuing the discussion, and continuing it in a manner unlike the way some "continue" such discussions, Dan. --Bob From bardo at optonline.net Sun Apr 17 13:25:16 2005 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:25:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER> <005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER> <006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> <001401c5436f$e667f290$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001201c54372$6c0b9bc0$3a95c044@MULDER> Thanks, Bob. I find this very helpful, and hope you will continue with such detailed and articulate posts! ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. >> Bob, >> >> I see cummings' visual arrangements--as I also see cubism--mainly as >> pranksterish means to shake up traditional genre expectations by moving >> 'difficulty' from 'between the lines' to the lines themselves, as a way >> to trivialize the kinds of difficulty (or gravitas) his more traditional >> contemporaries might have expected from art while at the same time >> simplifying the 'content' of the work. I don't mean to trivialize >> cummings, or cubists, however, by calling their techniques >> 'pranksterish.' The 'prank' aspect seems to work initially to get >> audience to look differently at the works' 'subjects'; such >> 'defamiliarization' (ostranenie) invites more extended and thorough >> contemplation of the work. I might apply the same term, 'pranksterish,' >> to some of Donne's uses of the metaphysical conceit, certainly without >> any pejorative sense. I wouldn't reduce such techniques to 'mere' pranks, >> but insofar as they seem to say "look how clever I am and how much fun I >> can have with the medium," the term seems apt. Sometimes, I do find such >> antics clever, and they contribute to my appreciation of the work as I >> join in the fun. You probably see aspects of cummings' visual dexterities >> that others have not perceived--things that you consider especially >> important in your estimation of his work. A few specific examples of what >> you believe cummings tried to achieve with his typography would help to >> lift the onus of ignorance from the shoulders of those who might fail to >> appreciate the particulars of his subtlety. >> >> ~ Dan > > > That seems a fair appraisal. Apologies for the annoyed remark. I was > thinking of a critic--Coblenz, I think--who once parodied Cummings by > simply putting words any old place on the page. He claimed Cummings was a > fake. > > I think there was the trivial prankster in Cummings. I also think he > liked seriously making his work a little difficult to read. There's > evidence, shown in a book called Cummings as Painter, or something close > to that, that indicates that he seriously distributed textual elements to > make a design of aesthetic value. I find his best use of unconventional > flow-breaks to be in the service of "disconcealment" (A word I coined some > thutty year ago and possibly my first literary coinage). Disconcealment > is simply breaking a word into one or more fragments that reveal, or take > out of concealment, smaller words of connotational value to the poem they > are in. A worn example is falling leaf poem: > > l(a > > le > af > fa > > ll > > s) > one > l > > iness > > The disconcealments, in order, are of the numeral l, one, the numeral l, > again, and I-ness (individuality) as well as one-ness. But note, too, the > "one-letter rhymes" the initial els make, and the little flip of "af" to > "fa"--all inside the pretty little 1/3/1/3/1 form. The main intention of > the poem, though, is to get the eye to follow it downward exactly as it > would follow a leaf's fall (taking a while to make up just what the leaf > was). The over-all verbal metaphor--a juxtaphor in Grummanese--is of > falling leaf as loneliness, which Cummings's fusion of leaf and state > makes all the more . . . a single thing. But it more powerfully > juxtaphorically depicts a falling leaf as an erratic gapped trickle down a > page of textual elements. > > I consider this poem up there with the best American poems of alltime, > partly, I suppose, because it was the poem that first made me aware of, > and permanently enamoured of visual poetry. But do have reservations > about it. My biggest is that it is a "mere" visual onomatopoeia--which is > to say that what is says verbally is duplicated by its visual appearance > instead of added to by the latter. Many Cummings fans would kill me for > saying so, but his poem would be better as > > l(a > > map > le > le > > af > > ) > one > l > > iness > > The charming af/fa is lost in this version, but le/le is almost as good, > and the visual arrangement adds to rather than repeats the poem's text. > > The poem also seems a mite sentimental to me since loneliness is not a > state that means much to me, but I know it can to others, and think the > defamiliarization of the language dampens the melancholyl boo hoo that the > poem might otherwise excessively express. > > I hope what I've said makes sense and is interesting. It is not the first > such exploration of Cummings I've posted here, one of them very recently, > so I hope people will remember it when I'm misrepresented as "never" > quoting poets I favor and commenting on their work. I'll try to post more > once I get into my Cummings presentation for ALA. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 17 13:38:41 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:38:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> <001401c5436f$e667f290$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001201c54374$4e27ddb0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I use the leaf falls poem a lot with beginning poetry workshops, and I consider it a wonderful poem. No offense, Bob, but your rewrite would fit very well with another assignment of mine, which is to take a beautiful poem and destroy it with one simple change. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. >> Bob, >> >> I see cummings' visual arrangements--as I also see cubism--mainly as >> pranksterish means to shake up traditional genre expectations by moving >> 'difficulty' from 'between the lines' to the lines themselves, as a way >> to trivialize the kinds of difficulty (or gravitas) his more traditional >> contemporaries might have expected from art while at the same time >> simplifying the 'content' of the work. I don't mean to trivialize >> cummings, or cubists, however, by calling their techniques >> 'pranksterish.' The 'prank' aspect seems to work initially to get >> audience to look differently at the works' 'subjects'; such >> 'defamiliarization' (ostranenie) invites more extended and thorough >> contemplation of the work. I might apply the same term, 'pranksterish,' >> to some of Donne's uses of the metaphysical conceit, certainly without >> any pejorative sense. I wouldn't reduce such techniques to 'mere' pranks, >> but insofar as they seem to say "look how clever I am and how much fun I >> can have with the medium," the term seems apt. Sometimes, I do find such >> antics clever, and they contribute to my appreciation of the work as I >> join in the fun. You probably see aspects of cummings' visual dexterities >> that others have not perceived--things that you consider especially >> important in your estimation of his work. A few specific examples of what >> you believe cummings tried to achieve with his typography would help to >> lift the onus of ignorance from the shoulders of those who might fail to >> appreciate the particulars of his subtlety. >> >> ~ Dan > > > That seems a fair appraisal. Apologies for the annoyed remark. I was > thinking of a critic--Coblenz, I think--who once parodied Cummings by > simply putting words any old place on the page. He claimed Cummings was a > fake. > > I think there was the trivial prankster in Cummings. I also think he > liked seriously making his work a little difficult to read. There's > evidence, shown in a book called Cummings as Painter, or something close > to that, that indicates that he seriously distributed textual elements to > make a design of aesthetic value. I find his best use of unconventional > flow-breaks to be in the service of "disconcealment" (A word I coined some > thutty year ago and possibly my first literary coinage). Disconcealment > is simply breaking a word into one or more fragments that reveal, or take > out of concealment, smaller words of connotational value to the poem they > are in. A worn example is falling leaf poem: > > l(a > > le > af > fa > > ll > > s) > one > l > > iness > > The disconcealments, in order, are of the numeral l, one, the numeral l, > again, and I-ness (individuality) as well as one-ness. But note, too, the > "one-letter rhymes" the initial els make, and the little flip of "af" to > "fa"--all inside the pretty little 1/3/1/3/1 form. The main intention of > the poem, though, is to get the eye to follow it downward exactly as it > would follow a leaf's fall (taking a while to make up just what the leaf > was). The over-all verbal metaphor--a juxtaphor in Grummanese--is of > falling leaf as loneliness, which Cummings's fusion of leaf and state > makes all the more . . . a single thing. But it more powerfully > juxtaphorically depicts a falling leaf as an erratic gapped trickle down a > page of textual elements. > > I consider this poem up there with the best American poems of alltime, > partly, I suppose, because it was the poem that first made me aware of, > and permanently enamoured of visual poetry. But do have reservations > about it. My biggest is that it is a "mere" visual onomatopoeia--which is > to say that what is says verbally is duplicated by its visual appearance > instead of added to by the latter. Many Cummings fans would kill me for > saying so, but his poem would be better as > > l(a > > map > le > le > > af > > ) > one > l > > iness > > The charming af/fa is lost in this version, but le/le is almost as good, > and the visual arrangement adds to rather than repeats the poem's text. > > The poem also seems a mite sentimental to me since loneliness is not a > state that means much to me, but I know it can to others, and think the > defamiliarization of the language dampens the melancholyl boo hoo that the > poem might otherwise excessively express. > > I hope what I've said makes sense and is interesting. It is not the first > such exploration of Cummings I've posted here, one of them very recently, > so I hope people will remember it when I'm misrepresented as "never" > quoting poets I favor and commenting on their work. I'll try to post more > once I get into my Cummings presentation for ALA. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 17 13:40:54 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:40:54 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER> <001401c5436f$e667f290$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005901c54374$9b637120$d2ab3452@ANNY> A great post, thanks Bob and Dan and Tad, If I can say I prefer the _leaf falling_ to the _maple leaf_ maybe because I kept on reading far-fal-la - butterfly in Italian. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking BooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. >> Bob, >> >> I see cummings' visual arrangements--as I also see cubism--mainly as >> pranksterish means to shake up traditional genre expectations by moving >> 'difficulty' from 'between the lines' to the lines themselves, as a way >> to trivialize the kinds of difficulty (or gravitas) his more traditional >> contemporaries might have expected from art while at the same time >> simplifying the 'content' of the work. I don't mean to trivialize >> cummings, or cubists, however, by calling their techniques >> 'pranksterish.' The 'prank' aspect seems to work initially to get >> audience to look differently at the works' 'subjects'; such >> 'defamiliarization' (ostranenie) invites more extended and thorough >> contemplation of the work. I might apply the same term, 'pranksterish,' >> to some of Donne's uses of the metaphysical conceit, certainly without >> any pejorative sense. I wouldn't reduce such techniques to 'mere' pranks, >> but insofar as they seem to say "look how clever I am and how much fun I >> can have with the medium," the term seems apt. Sometimes, I do find such >> antics clever, and they contribute to my appreciation of the work as I >> join in the fun. You probably see aspects of cummings' visual dexterities >> that others have not perceived--things that you consider especially >> important in your estimation of his work. A few specific examples of what >> you believe cummings tried to achieve with his typography would help to >> lift the onus of ignorance from the shoulders of those who might fail to >> appreciate the particulars of his subtlety. >> >> ~ Dan > > > That seems a fair appraisal. Apologies for the annoyed remark. I was > thinking of a critic--Coblenz, I think--who once parodied Cummings by > simply putting words any old place on the page. He claimed Cummings was a > fake. > > I think there was the trivial prankster in Cummings. I also think he > liked seriously making his work a little difficult to read. There's > evidence, shown in a book called Cummings as Painter, or something close > to that, that indicates that he seriously distributed textual elements to > make a design of aesthetic value. I find his best use of unconventional > flow-breaks to be in the service of "disconcealment" (A word I coined some > thutty year ago and possibly my first literary coinage). Disconcealment > is simply breaking a word into one or more fragments that reveal, or take > out of concealment, smaller words of connotational value to the poem they > are in. A worn example is falling leaf poem: > > l(a > > le > af > fa > > ll > > s) > one > l > > iness > > The disconcealments, in order, are of the numeral l, one, the numeral l, > again, and I-ness (individuality) as well as one-ness. But note, too, the > "one-letter rhymes" the initial els make, and the little flip of "af" to > "fa"--all inside the pretty little 1/3/1/3/1 form. The main intention of > the poem, though, is to get the eye to follow it downward exactly as it > would follow a leaf's fall (taking a while to make up just what the leaf > was). The over-all verbal metaphor--a juxtaphor in Grummanese--is of > falling leaf as loneliness, which Cummings's fusion of leaf and state > makes all the more . . . a single thing. But it more powerfully > juxtaphorically depicts a falling leaf as an erratic gapped trickle down a > page of textual elements. > > I consider this poem up there with the best American poems of alltime, > partly, I suppose, because it was the poem that first made me aware of, > and permanently enamoured of visual poetry. But do have reservations > about it. My biggest is that it is a "mere" visual onomatopoeia--which is > to say that what is says verbally is duplicated by its visual appearance > instead of added to by the latter. Many Cummings fans would kill me for > saying so, but his poem would be better as > > l(a > > map > le > le > > af > > ) > one > l > > iness > > The charming af/fa is lost in this version, but le/le is almost as good, > and the visual arrangement adds to rather than repeats the poem's text. > > The poem also seems a mite sentimental to me since loneliness is not a > state that means much to me, but I know it can to others, and think the > defamiliarization of the language dampens the melancholyl boo hoo that the > poem might otherwise excessively express. > > I hope what I've said makes sense and is interesting. It is not the first > such exploration of Cummings I've posted here, one of them very recently, > so I hope people will remember it when I'm misrepresented as "never" > quoting poets I favor and commenting on their work. I'll try to post more > once I get into my Cummings presentation for ALA. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 17 13:41:13 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:41:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath References: <127.5a608593.2f92ba03@aol.com><005501c5435b$6af78b20$ea0d9942@Helen> <002f01c5436f$53d81c70$d2ab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <001d01c54374$a88d0a50$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <<>> As a more or less absolute rule, I consider children more important than poems. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath I have it Helen, here it is: April 17, 2005 FIRST CHAPTER 'Uncensored' By JOYCE CAROL OATES ncensored Sylvia Plath The Unabridged Journals of Sylvia Plath Edited by Karen V. Kukil Who in February 1963 could have predicted, when a thirty-year-old American poet named Sylvia Plath committed suicide in London, distraught over the breakup of her marriage to the Yorkshire poet Ted Hughes, that Plath would quickly emerge as one of the most celebrated and controversial of postwar poets writing in English; and this in a golden era of poetry distinguished by such figures as Theodore Roethke, Marianne Moore, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Lowell, Richard Wilbur, Allen Ginsberg, Anne Sexton, John Berryman, May Swenson, Adrienne Rich, as well as W. H. Auden and T. S. Eliot? At the time of Plath's premature death she had published a single volume of poems that had received only moderate attention, The Colossus (1960), and a first novel, the Salingeresque The Bell Jar (which appeared a month before her death in England, under the pseudonym "Victoria Lucas"), in addition to a number of strikingly bold poems in British and American magazines; her second, stronger volume of poems, Ariel, would not appear until 1965, by which time Plath's posthumous fame assured the book widespread attention, superlative reviews, and sales that would eventually make it one of the bestselling volumes of poetry to be published in England and America in the twentieth century. Plath's Collected Poems (1982), assembled and edited by Ted Hughes, would win a Pulitzer Prize. "I am made, crudely, for success," Plath stated matter-of-factly in her journal in April 1958. Yet Plath could not have foreseen that her success would be almost entirely posthumous, and ironic: for, by killing herself impulsively and dying intestate, she delivered her precious fund of work, as well as her two young children Frieda and Nicholas, into the hands of her estranged husband, Hughes, and his proprietary sister Olywn, whom Plath had perceived as her enemies during the final, despairing weeks of her life. As her literary executor, Hughes had the power to publish what he wished of her work, or to publish it in radically "edited" (that is, expurgated) versions, like The Journals of Sylvia Plath (1982); or, if he wished, he might "lose" or even destroy it, as Hughes bluntly acknowledged he had done with two of the journal notebooks written during the last three years of Plath's life. As the surviving, perennially estranged husband, Hughes excised from Plath's journals what he called "nasty bits" and "intimacies," as he had eliminated from Ariel "some of the more personally aggressive poems," with the excuse that he wanted to spare their children further distress. This new, unabridged and unexpurgated edition of the journals assembled by Karen V. Kukil, assistant curator of rare books at Smith College, is "an exact and complete transcript of the twenty-three original manuscripts in the Sylvia Plath Collection," that suggests that the person Ted Hughes most wanted to spare from distress and exposure was himself. The Unabridged Journals document, in obsessive and exhausting detail Plath's undergraduate years at Smith College and her term as a Fulbright fellow at Newnham College, Cambridge; her marriage to Ted Hughes; and two years of teaching and writing in Northampton, Massachusetts, and in Boston. With the exception of appendices and fragments from 1960 to 1962, the most vivid of which describes the birth of Plath's second child, Nicholas, in January 1962, the Journals break off abruptly in November 1959 as Plath and Hughes, their marriage undercut by Plath's suspicions of Hughes's infidelity, prepare to return to England to live. The last entry of the 1959 journal is enigmatic as a typical Plath poem: "A bad day. A bad time. State of mind most important for work. A blithe, itchy eager state where the poem itself, the story itself is supreme." The most memorable of Sylvia Plath's incantatory poems, many of them written during the final, turbulent weeks of her life, read as if they've been chiseled, with a fine surgical instrument, out of Arctic ice. Her language is taut and original; her strategy elliptical; such poems as "Lesbos," "The Munich Mannequins," "Paralytic," "Daddy" (Plath's most notorious poem), and "Edge" (Plath's last poem, written in February 1963), and the prescient "Death & Co." linger long in the memory, with the power of malevolent nursery rhymes. For Plath, "The blood jet is poetry," and readers who might know little of the poet's private life can nonetheless feel the authenticity of Plath's recurring emotions: hurt, bewilderment, rage, stoic calm, bitter resignation. Like the greatest of her predecessors, Emily Dickinson, Plath understood that poetic truth is best told slantwise, in as few words as possible. By contrast, the journals are a tumult of words, and present a very mixed aesthetic experience for even the sympathetic reader. As a corrective to Hughes's "editing," a wholly unedited version of Plath's material would seem justified, in theory at least. Uncritical admirers of Plath will find much here that is fascinating. Other readers may find much that is fascinating and repellent in equal measure. Nor is the book easy to read, for its organization is eccentric: following journal entries for 1959, for instance, we revert jarringly back to a fragment for 1951, listed by the editor as Appendix I. It would have been more practical for scattered fragments to have been integrated chronologically with the journals. The Unabridged Journals is impossible to read without a reliable biography in tandem, for it lacks a simple chronology of Plath's life and the editor's headnotes are scattered and minimal. (Continues...) ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Ruggieri To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath Can you post the whole article? ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 2:57 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncensored Sylvia Plath http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/books/chapters/0417-1st-oates.html Uncensored Sylvia Plath The Unabridged Journals of Sylvia Plath Edited by Karen V. Kukil Who in February 1963 could have predicted, when a thirty-year-old American poet named Sylvia Plath committed suicide in London, distraught over the breakup of her marriage to the Yorkshire poet Ted Hughes, that Plath would quickly emerge as one of the most celebrated and controversial of postwar poets writing in English; and this in a golden era of poetry distinguished by such figures as Theodore Roethke, Marianne Moore, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Lowell, Richard Wilbur, Allen Ginsberg, Anne Sexton, John Berryman, May Swenson, Adrienne Rich, as well as W. H. Auden and T. S. Eliot? At the time of Plath's premature death she had published a single volume of poems that had received only moderate attention, The Colossus (1960), and a first novel, the Salingeresque The Bell Jar (which appeared a month before her death in England, under the pseudonym "Victoria Lucas"), -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 14:06:31 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:06:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Academy on Cummings References: <731bb17a050417095763ea74a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005901c54378$30015f60$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for this, Jeff. Great link to Cummings's paintings. Interesting compliment to Cummings from Moore. The news that Cummings, at the time of his death, was the second most-read American poet in America. That was a surprise to me, though I'm not sure how this was determined. I guess books sold. The usual crap about his not evolving. His late poems are much more elegant, innovative and unified than his early poems. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 14:14:06 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:14:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 GroundbreakingBooksofPoetry(BobGrumman)re:E.E. References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER><001401c5436f$e667f290$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001201c54374$4e27ddb0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <006b01c54379$3e99fc70$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I use the leaf falls poem a lot with beginning poetry workshops, and I >consider it a wonderful poem. > > No offense, Bob, but your rewrite would fit very well with another > assignment of mine, which is to take a beautiful poem and destroy it with > one simple change. I would claim that that is only because you saw the other version first. People never believe a poem should be edited after it is officially published. They have no trouble with pre-publication editing, though. I can't believe you really mean I destroyed the poem. I do think people not knowing the two poems and asked which they preferred would take the original--because they don't have the problem with visual onomatopoeia that I have. "I am BIG" is an okay introductory poem for kids but Richard Kostelanetz's page-sized "ME," in black letters with minimal white between the horizontals of the E and for the little triangles of the M, is vastly better. --Bob G. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 17 14:35:47 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:35:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 31 Groundbreaking Books of Poetry Message-ID: <1e3.39ef0502.2f940683@aol.com> In a message dated 4/17/2005 11:56:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > The Complete Poems 1850-1870 (1960) by Emily Dickinson > Quibble: Despite "corrections" made in earlier editions, certainly Dickinson's impact was felt well before 1960. Certainly by 1922 and Conrad Aiken's preface to The Selected Poems of E. D. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 14:36:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:36:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cummings's leaf References: <200504162240.j3GMeB0t011011@wiz.cath.vt.edu><001b01c54346$eda0b070$3a95c044@MULDER><005501c54350$91618820$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009901c54352$bc8d4000$3a95c044@MULDER><006301c54353$9678e8a0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><059801c5435f$15739e60$3a95c044@MULDER><001401c5436f$e667f290$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><001201c54374$4e27ddb0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <006b01c54379$3e99fc70$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00a101c5437c$5a3fbf20$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > >I use the leaf falls poem a lot with beginning poetry workshops, and I > >consider it a wonderful poem. >> >> No offense, Bob, but your rewrite would fit very well with another >> assignment of mine, which is to take a beautiful poem and destroy it with >> one simple change. You've convinced me to use map le le a f as a term in one of my long division poems. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 17 14:45:15 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:45:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Harryette Mullen, "Denigration" Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Alan C Golding" Subject: Harryette Mullen, "Denigration" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:39:38 -0400 Size: 3154 URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 17 15:40:29 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:40:29 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" Message-ID: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Pollack Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:10 PM Subject: "Ozymandias Replies" Ozymandias Replies Well, you?re a romantic. What one hires is, precisely, contempt, an intelligence (why not?) greater and therefore brittle; it works towards one. Stone lasts. From atop the great dome of the Kongresshalle, the Khan, the General Secretary and I observe the workings of a mighty hand. Dams break, mountains shift; but the river will flow again, blinded donkeys turn the wheel, dredges pour their loads of mud and larvae through the ditches. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 16:45:44 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:45:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <00db01c5438e$6d9e38f0$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I've always had a yen to reply to Shelley, too--to make him aware that after all these centuries he was writing about me. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: New Poetry Cc: Frederick Pollack Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Pollack Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:10 PM Subject: "Ozymandias Replies" Ozymandias Replies Well, you?re a romantic. What one hires is, precisely, contempt, an intelligence (why not?) greater and therefore brittle; it works towards one. Stone lasts. From atop the great dome of the Kongresshalle, the Khan, the General Secretary and I observe the workings of a mighty hand. Dams break, mountains shift; but the river will flow again, blinded donkeys turn the wheel, dredges pour their loads of mud and larvae through the ditches. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 17:13:11 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:13:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" In-Reply-To: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <731bb17a05041714131c6a4e87@mail.gmail.com> I like it, Anny. Who wrote this? I'm sitting here thinking about "response poetry," or, poetry written in response to another poem. A couple of examples come to mind: there's "Dover Bitch," of course and then there's (in a different vein), Pound's poem about Whitman--I don't recall the title. It might be "Walt Whitman." And of course, there's Ginsberg's "Supermarket in California." I also remember a Nikos Kazantzakis response to either The Iliad or The Odyssey. Can anyone think of other "response poems." (Did I make up a new term? Bob?) Post 'em if you got 'em! Extra points if you post both the poem and its response. Jeff Newberry On 4/17/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Frederick Pollack > *Sent:* Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:10 PM > *Subject:* "Ozymandias Replies" > > *Ozymandias Replies* > > Well, you're a romantic. What one hires is, > > precisely, contempt, an intelligence > > (why not?) greater and therefore > > brittle; it works towards one. > > Stone lasts. From atop the > > great dome of the *Kongresshalle*, the Khan, > > the General Secretary and I observe > > the workings of a mighty hand. Dams > > break, mountains shift; but the river > > will flow again, blinded donkeys turn > > the wheel, dredges pour > > their loads of mud and larvae through the ditches. > > ------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 17:15:50 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:15:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach Message-ID: <731bb17a050417141531d5e549@mail.gmail.com> Dover Beach Matthew Arnold The sea is calm to-night. The tide is full, the moon lies fair Upon the straits; -on the French coast the light Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand, Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay. Come to the window, sweet is the night air! Only, from the long line of spray Where the sea meets the moon-blanch'd land, Listen! you hear the grating roar Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling, At their return, up the high strand, Begin, and cease, and then again begin, With tremulous cadence slow, and bring The eternal note of sadness in. Sophocles long ago Heard it on the Aegean, and it brought Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow Of human misery; we Find also in the sound a thought, Hearing it by this distant northern sea. The Sea of Faith Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd. But now I only hear Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, Retreating, to the breath Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear And naked shingles of the world. Ah, love, let us be true To one another! for the world, which seems To lie before us like a land of dreams, So various, so beautiful, so new, Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light, Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain; And we are here as on a darkling plain Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, Where ignorant armies clash by night. THE DOVER BITCH Anthony Hecht A Criticism of Life (For Andrew's Wanning) So there stood Matthew Arnold and this girl With the cliffs of England crumbling away behind them, And he said to her, "Try to be true to me, And I'll do the same for you, for things are bad All over, etc., etc." Well now, I knew this girl. It's true she had read Sophocles in a fairly good translation And caught that bitter allusion to the sea, But all the time he was talking she had in mind The notion of what his whiskers would feel like On the back of her neck. She told me later on That after a while she got to looking out At the lights across the channel, and really felt sad, Thinking of all the wine and enormous beds And blandishments in French and the perfumes. And then she got really angry. To have been brought All the way down from London, and then be addressed As a sort of mournful cosmic last resort Is really tough on a girl, and she was pretty. Anyway, she watched him pace the room And finger his watch-chain and seem to sweat a bit, And then she said one or two unprintable things. But you mustn't judge her by that. What I mean to say is, She's really all right. I still see her once in a while And she always treats me right. We have a drink And I give her a good time, and perhaps it's a year Before I see her again, but there she is, Running to fat, but dependable as they come. And sometimes I bring her a bottle of Nuit d'Amour. Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From antrobin at clipper.net Sun Apr 17 17:26:14 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:26:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05041714131c6a4e87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <057b01c54394$1c214390$25351c40@Emily> Pound's "Lake Isle," (responding to Yeats) Donne's "The Bait" and Raleigh's "The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd," (responding to Marlowe) Kenneth Koch's "Mending Sump," "Variations on a Theme by William Carlos Williams," The pound Whitman poem is called "A Pact." Ginsberg's "A Supermarket in California" is in dialogue with Whitman, of course. Annie Finch's "Coy Mistress" (included in Sam Gwynn's handy anthology) responds to the Marvell poem. There are tons more, I'm sure. Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 17 17:33:46 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:33:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> <731bb17a05041714131c6a4e87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001901c54395$236a3c00$aad93052@ANNY> Ach sorry, springtime here, this is Frederick Pollack. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" I like it, Anny. Who wrote this? I'm sitting here thinking about "response poetry," or, poetry written in response to another poem. A couple of examples come to mind: there's "Dover Bitch," of course and then there's (in a different vein), Pound's poem about Whitman--I don't recall the title. It might be "Walt Whitman." And of course, there's Ginsberg's "Supermarket in California." I also remember a Nikos Kazantzakis response to either The Iliad or The Odyssey. Can anyone think of other "response poems." (Did I make up a new term? Bob?) Post 'em if you got 'em! Extra points if you post both the poem and its response. Jeff Newberry On 4/17/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Pollack Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:10 PM Subject: "Ozymandias Replies" Ozymandias Replies Well, you're a romantic. What one hires is, precisely, contempt, an intelligence (why not?) greater and therefore brittle; it works towards one. Stone lasts. From atop the great dome of the Kongresshalle, the Khan, the General Secretary and I observe the workings of a mighty hand. Dams break, mountains shift; but the river will flow again, blinded donkeys turn the wheel, dredges pour their loads of mud and larvae through the ditches. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 17 17:40:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:40:31 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <731bb17a050417141531d5e549@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01c54396$14819840$aad93052@ANNY> I love the one by Hecht, and also Charles Shultz Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: "NewPoetry" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:15 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach > Dover Beach > Matthew Arnold > > The sea is calm to-night. > The tide is full, the moon lies fair > Upon the straits; -on the French coast the light > Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand, > Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay. > Come to the window, sweet is the night air! > Only, from the long line of spray > Where the sea meets the moon-blanch'd land, > Listen! you hear the grating roar > Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling, > At their return, up the high strand, > Begin, and cease, and then again begin, > With tremulous cadence slow, and bring > The eternal note of sadness in. > Sophocles long ago > Heard it on the Aegean, and it brought > Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow > Of human misery; we > Find also in the sound a thought, > Hearing it by this distant northern sea. > > The Sea of Faith > Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore > Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd. > But now I only hear > Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, > Retreating, to the breath > Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear > And naked shingles of the world. > > Ah, love, let us be true > To one another! for the world, which seems > To lie before us like a land of dreams, > So various, so beautiful, so new, > Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light, > > Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain; > And we are here as on a darkling plain > Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, > Where ignorant armies clash by night. > > > THE DOVER BITCH > Anthony Hecht > > A Criticism of Life (For Andrew's Wanning) > > So there stood Matthew Arnold and this girl > With the cliffs of England crumbling away behind them, > And he said to her, "Try to be true to me, > And I'll do the same for you, for things are bad > All over, etc., etc." > Well now, I knew this girl. It's true she had read > Sophocles in a fairly good translation > And caught that bitter allusion to the sea, > But all the time he was talking she had in mind > The notion of what his whiskers would feel like > On the back of her neck. She told me later on > That after a while she got to looking out > At the lights across the channel, and really felt sad, > Thinking of all the wine and enormous beds > And blandishments in French and the perfumes. > And then she got really angry. To have been brought > All the way down from London, and then be addressed > As a sort of mournful cosmic last resort > Is really tough on a girl, and she was pretty. > Anyway, she watched him pace the room > And finger his watch-chain and seem to sweat a bit, > And then she said one or two unprintable things. > But you mustn't judge her by that. What I mean to say is, > She's really all right. I still see her once in a while > And she always treats me right. We have a drink > And I give her a good time, and perhaps it's a year > Before I see her again, but there she is, > Running to fat, but dependable as they come. > And sometimes I bring her a bottle of Nuit d'Amour. > > > Jeff Newberry > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 18:02:16 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:02:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach In-Reply-To: <002a01c54396$14819840$aad93052@ANNY> References: <731bb17a050417141531d5e549@mail.gmail.com> <002a01c54396$14819840$aad93052@ANNY> Message-ID: <731bb17a05041715022b7e6d22@mail.gmail.com> Anny, Your reply (nearly?) scans: i LOVE the ONE by HECHT and ALso CHARLES SHULTZ I wonder if I could write a poem in this meter with those two opening lines . . . ? You others might have better ears . . . Sam? David? Jeff Newberry On 4/17/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I love the one by Hecht, > and also Charles Shultz > > Anny > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Newberry" > To: "NewPoetry" > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:15 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach > > > Dover Beach > > Matthew Arnold > > > > The sea is calm to-night. > > The tide is full, the moon lies fair > > Upon the straits; -on the French coast the light > > Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand, > > Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay. > > Come to the window, sweet is the night air! > > Only, from the long line of spray > > Where the sea meets the moon-blanch'd land, > > Listen! you hear the grating roar > > Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling, > > At their return, up the high strand, > > Begin, and cease, and then again begin, > > With tremulous cadence slow, and bring > > The eternal note of sadness in. > > Sophocles long ago > > Heard it on the Aegean, and it brought > > Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow > > Of human misery; we > > Find also in the sound a thought, > > Hearing it by this distant northern sea. > > > > The Sea of Faith > > Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore > > Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd. > > But now I only hear > > Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar, > > Retreating, to the breath > > Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear > > And naked shingles of the world. > > > > Ah, love, let us be true > > To one another! for the world, which seems > > To lie before us like a land of dreams, > > So various, so beautiful, so new, > > Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light, > > > > Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain; > > And we are here as on a darkling plain > > Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, > > Where ignorant armies clash by night. > > > > > > THE DOVER BITCH > > Anthony Hecht > > > > A Criticism of Life (For Andrew's Wanning) > > > > So there stood Matthew Arnold and this girl > > With the cliffs of England crumbling away behind them, > > And he said to her, "Try to be true to me, > > And I'll do the same for you, for things are bad > > All over, etc., etc." > > Well now, I knew this girl. It's true she had read > > Sophocles in a fairly good translation > > And caught that bitter allusion to the sea, > > But all the time he was talking she had in mind > > The notion of what his whiskers would feel like > > On the back of her neck. She told me later on > > That after a while she got to looking out > > At the lights across the channel, and really felt sad, > > Thinking of all the wine and enormous beds > > And blandishments in French and the perfumes. > > And then she got really angry. To have been brought > > All the way down from London, and then be addressed > > As a sort of mournful cosmic last resort > > Is really tough on a girl, and she was pretty. > > Anyway, she watched him pace the room > > And finger his watch-chain and seem to sweat a bit, > > And then she said one or two unprintable things. > > But you mustn't judge her by that. What I mean to say is, > > She's really all right. I still see her once in a while > > And she always treats me right. We have a drink > > And I give her a good time, and perhaps it's a year > > Before I see her again, but there she is, > > Running to fat, but dependable as they come. > > And sometimes I bring her a bottle of Nuit d'Amour. > > > > > > Jeff Newberry > > -- > > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 17 18:45:44 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:45:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> <731bb17a05041714131c6a4e87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <011901c5439f$313efdc0$22b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Response poem sounds good to me, Jeff. Dunno whether it's new or not. I've composed lots of poems that could be called response poems--it's my practice often to steal poems I like and put them into math poems. There's one at http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/spidertangle/the_book/grumman.html It's "Mathemaku for Robert Lax" and contains the complete text of one of his poems. Which suggests another kind of poem you might try to find specimens of--poems that include the whole or significant part of another poem in them. I wouldn't think there'd be too many. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" I like it, Anny. Who wrote this? I'm sitting here thinking about "response poetry," or, poetry written in response to another poem. A couple of examples come to mind: there's "Dover Bitch," of course and then there's (in a different vein), Pound's poem about Whitman--I don't recall the title. It might be "Walt Whitman." And of course, there's Ginsberg's "Supermarket in California." I also remember a Nikos Kazantzakis response to either The Iliad or The Odyssey. Can anyone think of other "response poems." (Did I make up a new term? Bob?) Post 'em if you got 'em! Extra points if you post both the poem and its response. Jeff Newberry On 4/17/05, Anny Ballardini wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Pollack Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:10 PM Subject: "Ozymandias Replies" Ozymandias Replies Well, you're a romantic. What one hires is, precisely, contempt, an intelligence (why not?) greater and therefore brittle; it works towards one. Stone lasts. From atop the great dome of the Kongresshalle, the Khan, the General Secretary and I observe the workings of a mighty hand. Dams break, mountains shift; but the river will flow again, blinded donkeys turn the wheel, dredges pour their loads of mud and larvae through the ditches. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 19:40:49 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:40:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <731bb17a050417141531d5e549@mail.gmail.com><002a01c54396$14819840$aad93052@ANNY> <731bb17a05041715022b7e6d22@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <032101c5485d$e10affc0$f09c9951@Robin> > Your reply (nearly?) scans: > > i LOVE the ONE by HECHT > and ALso CHARLES SHULTZ Iambic tetrameter. R. If you extend it, it works as an abcb quatrain: I love the one by Hecht and also Charles Shultz -- In life it favoured me and I'll forgive the worst. {Forgive the final half-rhyme.} Dorothy Parker did this all the time. Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker. Lucy van Pelt. (The Doctor is OUT, so you might as well live.) From mandolin at mac.com Sun Apr 17 19:56:04 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:56:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" In-Reply-To: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <6d5f96bf7f60ba5443af7d8e84f0fd8a@mac.com> On Apr 17, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > ? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frederick Pollack > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:10 PM > Subject: "Ozymandias Replies" > >> >> >> Ozymandias Replies >> ? >> ? >> Well, you?re a romantic.? What one hires is, >> precisely, contempt, an intelligence >> (why not?) greater and therefore >> brittle; it works towards one. >> Stone lasts.? From atop the >> great dome of the Kongresshalle, the Khan, >> the General Secretary and I observe >> the workings of a mighty hand.? Dams >> break, mountains shift; but the river >> will flow again, blinded donkeys turn >> the wheel, dredges pour >> their loads of mud and larvae through the ditches. >> I hesitated a long time before sending this -- but I can't imagine that Howard Nemerov approved of the speaker of this poem -- Ozymandias II I met a guy I used to know, who said: "You take your '57 Karnak, now, The model that they called their Coup de Veal That had the pointy rubber boobs for bumpers-- You take that car, owned by a nigger now Likelier'n not, whith half its chromium teeth Knocked down its throat and aeriel ripped off, Side stitched with like bullets where the stripping's gone And rust like a fungus spreading on the fenders, Well, what I mean, that fucking car still runs, Even the moths in the upholstery are old But it gets around, you see one on the street Beat-up and proud, well, Jeezus what a country, Where even the monuments keep on the move." From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 17 20:02:16 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:02:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05041714131c6a4e87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: on 4/17/05 4:13 PM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: Can anyone think of other "response poems." (Did I make up a new term? Bob?) Post 'em if you got 'em! Extra points if you post both the poem and its response. Jeff Newberry ============================ Nuances on a Theme by Williams El Hombre It?s a strange courage you give me, ancient star: Shine alone in the sunrise toward which you lend no part. I Shine alone, shine nakedly, shine like bronze that reflects neither my face nor any inner part of my being, shine like fire, that mirrors nothing. II Lend no part to any humanity suffuses you in its own light. Be not chimera of morning, Half-man, half-star. Be not an intelligence, Like a widow's bird Or an old horse. --Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Sun Apr 17 20:18:49 2005 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:18:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach In-Reply-To: <032101c5485d$e10affc0$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <059f01c543ac$37e493d0$25351c40@Emily> Trimeter? > Your reply (nearly?) scans: > > i LOVE the ONE by HECHT > and ALso CHARLES SHULTZ Iambic tetrameter. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 17 20:38:45 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:38:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems 2 Message-ID: One of my own: I believe I posted this once before, but here it is again! An example of a response to a response. . . . Homage to Arthur Waley Seattle weather: it has rained for weeks in this town, The dampness breeding moths and a gray summer. I sit in the smoky room reading your book again, My eyes raw, hearing the trains steaming below me In the wet yard, and I wonder if you are still alive. Turning the worn pages, reading once more: "By misty waters and rainy sand, while the yellow dusk thickens." --Weldon Kees HOMAGE TO WELDON KEES --after his "Homage to Arthur Waley" Wisconsin fall: windows closed these three weeks, midnight chill you can still smell through the glass. I reach for your book naturally after midnight, work done, listening to the furnace click and halt in my walls, and I study your photo once more. Gazing down on that blueblack ocean you must have joined in 1955. Thinking "even the sound of the rain repeats: *The lease is up, the time is near*." --David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 20:54:16 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:54:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <059f01c543ac$37e493d0$25351c40@Emily> Message-ID: <087001c54868$241239a0$f09c9951@Robin> > Trimeter? Dunno. Someone of the 25 Rebel Angels on this list must know, but. Trimeter, schimeter, excuse my perimeter. Alfred Austin The odd thing was that lo these many years ago when I was first accused of being a Rebel Angel, I went white as death. [and than Death it's difficult to get more white] Shite, there's my coven blown. Tittivulus From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Apr 17 21:05:29 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:05:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Message-ID: <697F5820.2F2322C1.001A46F6@aol.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Thom Tammaro Subject: THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:26:04 -0500 Size: 18188 URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 17 21:23:28 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:23:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" In-Reply-To: <6d5f96bf7f60ba5443af7d8e84f0fd8a@mac.com> References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <4262D3D0.7455.6C7CDD@localhost> Ozymandias Percy Bysshe Shelley, 1818 I met a traveler from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert . . . Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed. And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. Ozymandias Revisited Morris Bishop I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand, Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things, The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal these words appear: 'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!' Also the names of Emory P. Gray, Mr. and Mrs. Dukes, and Oscar Baer Of 17 West 4th Street, Oyster Bay. From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 17 21:25:48 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:25:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach In-Reply-To: <032101c5485d$e10affc0$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost> > If you extend it, it works as an abcb quatrain: > > I love the one by Hecht > and also Charles Shultz -- > In life it favoured me > and I'll forgive the worst. > > {Forgive the final half-rhyme.} > > Dorothy Parker did this all the time. > > Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker. Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. Marcus From schroesd at adelphia.net Sun Apr 17 21:59:20 2005 From: schroesd at adelphia.net (Steven D. Schroeder) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:59:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] trimeter/candy is dandy References: <200504180055.j3I0tI0s019807@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000901c543ba$3cadd350$02614644@STEVECOMPUTER> Yes, trimeter. Also, the "candy is dandy" rhyme is Ogden Nash, not Dorothy Parker. "You might as well live" is indeed Parker. Steven D. Schroeder Editor, The Eleventh Muse http://www.steveschroeder.info/ -- From: "Anthony Robinson" Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" Message-ID: <059f01c543ac$37e493d0$25351c40 at Emily> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Trimeter? > Your reply (nearly?) scans: > > i LOVE the ONE by HECHT > and ALso CHARLES SHULTZ Iambic tetrameter. ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:38:45 -0500 From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems 2 To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" One of my own: I believe I posted this once before, but here it is again! An example of a response to a response. . . . Homage to Arthur Waley Seattle weather: it has rained for weeks in this town, The dampness breeding moths and a gray summer. I sit in the smoky room reading your book again, My eyes raw, hearing the trains steaming below me In the wet yard, and I wonder if you are still alive. Turning the worn pages, reading once more: "By misty waters and rainy sand, while the yellow dusk thickens." --Weldon Kees HOMAGE TO WELDON KEES --after his "Homage to Arthur Waley" Wisconsin fall: windows closed these three weeks, midnight chill you can still smell through the glass. I reach for your book naturally after midnight, work done, listening to the furnace click and halt in my walls, and I study your photo once more. Gazing down on that blueblack ocean you must have joined in 1955. Thinking "even the sound of the rain repeats: *The lease is up, the time is near*." --David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:54:16 +0100 From: "Robin Hamilton" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <087001c54868$241239a0$f09c9951 at Robin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Trimeter? Dunno. Someone of the 25 Rebel Angels on this list must know, but. Trimeter, schimeter, excuse my perimeter. Alfred Austin The odd thing was that lo these many years ago when I was first accused of being a Rebel Angel, I went white as death. [and than Death it's difficult to get more white] Shite, there's my coven blown. Tittivulus ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:05:29 -0400 From: Thom424 at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN LITERATURE To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: <697F5820.2F2322C1.001A46F6 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Thom Tammaro Subject: THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:26:04 -0500 Size: 18188 Url: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050417/77c69c31/ForwardedEmail.mht ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 27 ****************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 21:47:47 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 02:47:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: School References: <4262FA31.5020508@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <089501c5486f$9e0aba00$f09c9951@Robin> I was sitting in a bar room once, passing conversation when the Man said: "You heeled?" Christ, you have to be joking. This was Glasgow. I tried to hijack a Securicor van once, and the shotgun guard (who was about the age of me then, late teens early twenties) was slavering to arrest me, but the driver didn't even bother to look up from the book he was reading -- Kant? -- but simply said, "Christ, jimmy, for all I know he's sitting beside my daughter in the Moral Philosphy lectures, so if we bust him, I'll never hear the end of it." A level playing-field. Bliss it was and all that crap. Fun. Strelnikov. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 17 21:47:50 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:47:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: "Ozymandias Replies" Message-ID: This is more like an echo of the big O than a reply... The Villa Set upon the brow of a limestone outcropping overlooking the sea, from a great distance the villa was an airy, columned arcade of white stone. Quite beautiful, threatened only by erasure of mist at evening. >From a kilometer, it seemed the grapevines were overtangled, strangling along the edges of the estate. When the minibus reached the front gate, one could see that the windows were broken out, terra cotta roof tiles strewn about the grounds as if some game of chance had gone badly. All that remained of better days, of the owner's dream, was this monument to the elan of decay, with all its rooms held open to the elements, a fine ruin with a splendid view of the Aegean. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 22:21:05 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 03:21:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost> Message-ID: <08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin> Marcus: Candy is dandy ... > Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. Actually, it's *not* Ogden Nash. Nash used to get incredibly upset by having that couplet attributed to him. Possibly because it was closer to the way he wrote than the way he wrote himself. But he didn't ever write it. Honest. archie RESUME Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. Dot from the Algonquin From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 17 22:46:18 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:46:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach In-Reply-To: <08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <4262E73A.1998.101ACD@localhost> > Candy is dandy ... > > Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. > On 24 Apr 2005 at 3:21, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Actually, it's *not* Ogden Nash. Reflections on Ice-Breaking Ogden Nash Candy Is dandy But liquor Is quicker. http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/667.html Marcus From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 17 23:22:18 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:22:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is dandy In-Reply-To: <4262E73A.1998.101ACD@localhost> Message-ID: Yes, that's Ogden Nash. Interesting how much better it is with his orginal title--often stripped off. Somewhere Taj Mahal recorded a song containing his own version of the couplet, adding his own rhyme ("you can get all the liquor down in Costa Riccer"-- a rather Nashian touch). This little dispute reminds me of the classic purple cow poem: how many could name its author without prompting? And how many know the title? The Purple Cow's Projected Feast: Reflections on a Mythic Beast, Who's Quite Remarkable, at Least. I never saw a purple cow, I never hope to see one; But I can tell you, anyhow, I'd rather see than be one. The author is Gelett Burgess. Even better is his follow-up poem, I'd say: CONFESSION: and a Portrait, Too, Upon a Background that I Rue! Ah, Yes! I Wrote the "Purple Cow" -- I'm Sorry, now, I Wrote it! But I can Tell you Anyhow, I'll Kill you if you Quote it! -- Gelett Burgess on 4/17/05 9:46 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: >> Candy is dandy ... >>> Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. >> > On 24 Apr 2005 at 3:21, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Actually, it's *not* Ogden Nash. > Reflections on Ice-Breaking > Ogden Nash > > Candy > Is dandy > But liquor > Is quicker. > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/667.html > > Marcus > ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 23:42:22 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 04:42:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262E73A.1998.101ACD@localhost> Message-ID: <08ef01c5487f$9ff44740$f09c9951@Robin> > Candy > Is dandy > But liquor > Is quicker. > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/667.html > > Marcus Don't entirely trust what you scrape-up from the Web, Marcus. Nash *didn't* write, it and the echt version runs as a couplet: Candy is dandy But liquor is quicker. The rhythm is admittedly close to Nash, but the meaning (which is why I suspect Nash got so thoroughly pissed-off having the Damn Thing attibuted to him) is much rawer than anything Nash as a polite NY reporter would ever have said. Look, there's an easy way to prove me wrong on this -- simply give me a page-reference to *any* edition of Ogden Nash's poems which includes this. Artists shouldn't have offspring. Mehitabel. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 23:52:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 04:52:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is dandy References: Message-ID: <08f301c54881$0b4cf0e0$f09c9951@Robin> From: "David Graham" > Yes, that's Ogden Nash. BLEH!! No it ain't. As to the Purple Cow, is there an elephant in the room? Para Handy {God give me patience ...} > Interesting how much better it is with his orginal > title--often stripped off. Somewhere Taj Mahal recorded a song containing > his own version of the couplet, adding his own rhyme ("you can get all the > liquor down in Costa Riccer"-- a rather Nashian touch). > > This little dispute reminds me of the classic purple cow poem: how many > could name its author without prompting? And how many know the title? > > > The Purple Cow's Projected Feast: > Reflections on a Mythic Beast, > Who's Quite Remarkable, at Least. > > I never saw a purple cow, > I never hope to see one; > But I can tell you, anyhow, > I'd rather see than be one. > > > The author is Gelett Burgess. Even better is his follow-up poem, I'd say: > > CONFESSION: and a Portrait, Too, > Upon a Background that I Rue! > > Ah, Yes! I Wrote the "Purple Cow" -- > I'm Sorry, now, I Wrote it! > But I can Tell you Anyhow, > I'll Kill you if you Quote it! > > -- Gelett Burgess > > > on 4/17/05 9:46 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > > >> Candy is dandy ... > >>> Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. > >> > > On 24 Apr 2005 at 3:21, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >> Actually, it's *not* Ogden Nash. > > Reflections on Ice-Breaking > > Ogden Nash > > > > Candy > > Is dandy > > But liquor > > Is quicker. > > > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/667.html > > > > Marcus > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Apr 18 00:03:04 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:03:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is still dandy In-Reply-To: <08ef01c5487f$9ff44740$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: > Look, there's an easy way to prove me wrong on this -- simply give me a > page-reference to *any* edition of Ogden Nash's poems which includes this. Ogden Nash's "Reflections on Ice-Breaking" appears in *Many Long Years Ago* (1945). Printed as a quatrain in my copy of *The Selected Poetry of Ogden Nash: 650 Rhymes, Verses, Lyrics & Poems*. Black Dog & Leventhal, 1995. Page 632. Who, pray tell, do *you* think wrote the poem, Robin? A good collection of Nash's poetry here: http://www.aenet.org/poems/ognash2.htm My favorite Nash: Song of the Open Road I think that I shall never see A billboard as lovely as a tree. Perhaps unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all. --Ogden Nash on 4/23/05 10:42 PM, Robin Hamilton at robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com wrote: >> Candy >> Is dandy >> But liquor >> Is quicker. >> >> http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/667.html >> >> Marcus > > Don't entirely trust what you scrape-up from the Web, Marcus. > > Nash *didn't* write, it and the echt version runs as a couplet: > > Candy is dandy > But liquor is quicker. > > The rhythm is admittedly close to Nash, but the meaning (which is why I > suspect Nash got so thoroughly pissed-off having the Damn Thing attibuted to > him) is much rawer than anything Nash as a polite NY reporter would ever > have said. > > Look, there's an easy way to prove me wrong on this -- simply give me a > page-reference to *any* edition of Ogden Nash's poems which includes this. > > Artists shouldn't have offspring. > > Mehitabel. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Apr 24 00:37:31 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 05:37:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is dandy References: Message-ID: <090b01c54887$5434d2e0$f09c9951@Robin> The title from Marcus' URL -- "Reflections on an Ice Pick" -- is, frankly, singularly weird. Someone with a seriously sick sense of humour has mis-matched lines Ogden Nash never wrote to the killing of Trotsky and UK seventies punk rock. No more heroes, no more Shakespeareos. Hugh Cornwall. Seems to me blindingly obvious, but then I suppose it's just possible I've gone barking mad. That, or everyone else has. JJ Burnell, a.k.a Otzi the Iceman ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 4:22 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is dandy > Yes, that's Ogden Nash. Interesting how much better it is with his orginal > title--often stripped off. Somewhere Taj Mahal recorded a song containing > his own version of the couplet, adding his own rhyme ("you can get all the > liquor down in Costa Riccer"-- a rather Nashian touch). > > This little dispute reminds me of the classic purple cow poem: how many > could name its author without prompting? And how many know the title? > > > The Purple Cow's Projected Feast: > Reflections on a Mythic Beast, > Who's Quite Remarkable, at Least. > > I never saw a purple cow, > I never hope to see one; > But I can tell you, anyhow, > I'd rather see than be one. > > > The author is Gelett Burgess. Even better is his follow-up poem, I'd say: > > CONFESSION: and a Portrait, Too, > Upon a Background that I Rue! > > Ah, Yes! I Wrote the "Purple Cow" -- > I'm Sorry, now, I Wrote it! > But I can Tell you Anyhow, > I'll Kill you if you Quote it! > > -- Gelett Burgess > > > on 4/17/05 9:46 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > > >> Candy is dandy ... > >>> Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. > >> > > On 24 Apr 2005 at 3:21, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >> Actually, it's *not* Ogden Nash. > > Reflections on Ice-Breaking > > Ogden Nash > > > > Candy > > Is dandy > > But liquor > > Is quicker. > > > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/667.html > > > > Marcus > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Apr 24 01:25:30 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 06:25:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is still dandy References: Message-ID: <092301c5488e$07fb6900$f09c9951@Robin> > Ogden Nash's "Reflections on Ice-Breaking" appears in *Many Long Years Ago* > (1945). > > Printed as a quatrain in my copy of *The Selected Poetry of Ogden Nash: 650 > Rhymes, Verses, Lyrics & Poems*. Black Dog & Leventhal, 1995. Page 632. Well, it's not often (or is it?) that I get things *quite* so catastrophically wrong. But this one, I have to confess, was a lulu. > Who, pray tell, do *you* think wrote the poem, Robin? I hate to admit this, but I thought it might be by Wallace Stevens on a bad hair day. OUCH!!! :-( R. > A good collection of Nash's poetry here: > > http://www.aenet.org/poems/ognash2.htm From debra at debradicembre.com Mon Apr 18 01:32:39 2005 From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:32:39 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] great poem References: Message-ID: <016e01c543d8$0b087df0$0301010a@galaxy> sweet... Debra Dicembre I stay on the list for moments like this...(t)silent. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:48 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] great poem > Yesterday upon the stair > I met a man who wasn't there. > He wasn't there again today > I wish that man would go away. > > --Hughes Mearns > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 18 07:27:28 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:27:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems: Wordsworth and Carroll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42636160.15220.17C993@localhost> RESOLUTION AND INDEPENDENCE William Wordsworth THERE was a roaring in the wind all night; The rain came heavily and fell in floods; But now the sun is rising calm and bright; The birds are singing in the distant woods; Over his own sweet voice the Stock-dove broods; The Jay makes answer as the Magpie chatters; And all the air is filled with pleasant noise of waters. All things that love the sun are out of doors; The sky rejoices in the morning's birth; The grass is bright with rain-drops;--on the moors The hare is running races in her mirth; And with her feet she from the plashy earth Raises a mist, that, glittering in the sun, Runs with her all the way, wherever she doth run. I was a Traveller then upon the moor, I saw the hare that raced about with joy; I heard the woods and distant waters roar; Or heard them not, as happy as a boy: The pleasant season did my heart employ: My old remembrances went from me wholly; And all the ways of men, so vain and melancholy. But, as it sometimes chanceth, from the might Of joy in minds that can no further go, As high as we have mounted in delight In our dejection do we sink as low; To me that morning did it happen so; And fears and fancies thick upon me came; Dim sadness--and blind thoughts, I knew not, nor could name. I heard the sky-lark warbling in the sky; And I bethought me of the playful hare: Even such a happy Child of earth am I; Even as these blissful creatures do I fare; Far from the world I walk, and from all care; But there may come another day to me-- Solitude, pain of heart, distress, and poverty. My whole life I have lived in pleasant thought, As if life's business were a summer mood; As if all needful things would come unsought To genial faith, still rich in genial good; But how can He expect that others should Build for him, sow for him, and at his call Love him, who for himself will take no heed at all? I thought of Chatterton, the marvellous Boy, The sleepless Soul that perished in his pride; Of Him who walked in glory and in joy Following his plough, along the mountain-side: By our own spirits are we deified: We Poets in our youth begin in gladness; But thereof come in the end despondency and madness. Now, whether it were by peculiar grace, A leading from above, a something given, Yet it befell, that, in this lonely place, When I with these untoward thoughts had striven, Beside a pool bare to the eye of heaven I saw a Man before me unawares: The oldest man he seemed that ever wore grey hairs. As a huge stone is sometimes seen to lie Couched on the bald top of an eminence; Wonder to all who do the same espy, By what means it could thither come, and whence; So that it seems a thing endued with sense: Like a sea-beast crawled forth, that on a shelf Of rock or sand reposeth, there to sun itself; Such seemed this Man, not all alive nor dead, Nor all asleep--in his extreme old age: His body was bent double, feet and head Coming together in life's pilgrimage; As if some dire constraint of pain, or rage Of sickness felt by him in times long past, A more than human weight upon his frame had cast. Himself he propped, limbs, body, and pale face, Upon a long grey staff of shaven wood: And, still as I drew near with gentle pace, Upon the margin of that moorish flood Motionless as a cloud the old Man stood, That heareth not the loud winds when they call And moveth all together, if it move at all. At length, himself unsettling, he the pond Stirred with his staff, and fixedly did look Upon the muddy water, which he conned, As if he had been reading in a book: And now a stranger's privilege I took; And, drawing to his side, to him did say, "This morning gives us promise of a glorious day." A gentle answer did the old Man make, In courteous speech which forth he slowly drew: And him with further words I thus bespake, "What occupation do you there pursue? This is a lonesome place for one like you." Ere he replied, a flash of mild surprise Broke from the sable orbs of his yet-vivid eyes, His words came feebly, from a feeble chest, But each in solemn order followed each, With something of a lofty utterance drest-- Choice word and measured phrase, above the reach Of ordinary men; a stately speech; Such as grave Livers do in Scotland use, Religious men, who give to God and man their dues. He told, that to these waters he had come To gather leeches, being old and poor: Employment hazardous and wearisome! And he had many hardships to endure: From pond to pond he roamed, from moor to moor; Housing, with God's good help, by choice or chance, And in this way he gained an honest maintenance. The old Man still stood talking by my side; But now his voice to me was like a stream Scarce heard; nor word from word could I divide; And the whole body of the Man did seem Like one whom I had met with in a dream; Or like a man from some far region sent, To give me human strength, by apt admonishment. My former thoughts returned: the fear that kills; And hope that is unwilling to be fed; Cold, pain, and labour, and all fleshly ills; And mighty Poets in their misery dead. --Perplexed, and longing to be comforted, My question eagerly did I renew, "How is it that you live, and what is it you do?" He with a smile did then his words repeat; And said, that, gathering leeches, far and wide He travelled; stirring thus about his feet The waters of the pools where they abide. "Once I could meet with them on every side; But they have dwindled long by slow decay; Yet still I persevere, and find them where I may." While he was talking thus, the lonely place, The old Man's shape, and speech--all troubled me: In my mind's eye I seemed to see him pace About the weary moors continually, Wandering about alone and silently. While I these thoughts within myself pursued, He, having made a pause, the same discourse renewed. And soon with this he other matter blended, Cheerfully uttered, with demeanour kind, But stately in the main; and when he ended, I could have laughed myself to scorn to find In that decrepit Man so firm a mind. "God," said I, "be my help and stay secure; I'll think of the Leech-gatherer on the lonely moor!" The White Knight's Song Lewis Carroll I'll tell thee everything I can; There's little to relate. I saw an aged aged man, A-sitting on a gate. 'Who are you, aged man?' I said. 'And how is it you live?' And his answer trickled through my head Like water through a sieve. He said 'I look for butterflies That sleep among the wheat: I make them into mutton pies, And sell them in the street. I sell them unto men,' he said, 'Who sail on stormy seas; And that's the way I get my bread-- A trifle, if you please.' But I was thinking of a plan To dye one's whiskers green, And always use so large a fan That they could not be seen. So, having no reply to give To what the old man said, I cried 'Come, tell me how you live!' And thumped him on the head. His accents mild took up the tale: He said, 'I go my ways, And when I find a mountain-rill, I set it in a blaze; And thence they make a stuff they call Rowland's Macassar Oil-- Yet twopence-halfpenny is all, They give me for my toil.' But I was thinking of a way To feed oneself on batter, And so go on from day to day Getting a little fatter. I shook him well from side to side, Until his face was blue: 'Come, tell me how you live,' I cried, 'And what it is you do.!' He said 'I hunt for haddock eyes Among the heather bright, And work them into waistcoat-buttons In the silent night. And these I do not sell for gold Or coin of silvery shine, but for a copper halfpenny, And that will purchase nine. 'I sometimes dig for buttered rolls, Or set limed twigs for crabs; I sometimes search the grassy knolls For wheels of hansom-cabs. And that's the way' (he gave a wink) By which I get my wealth-- And very gladly will I drink Your Honour's noble health.' I heard him then, for I had just Completed my design To keep the Menai bridge from rust By boiling it in wine. I thanked him much for telling me The way he got his wealth, But chiefly for his wish that he Might drink my noble health. And now, if e'er by chance I put My fingers into glue, Or madly squeeze a right-hand foot Into a left-hand shoe, Or if I drop upon my toe A very heavy weight, I weep, for it reminds me so Of that old man I used to know-- Whose look was mild, whose speech was slow, Whose hair was whiter than the snow, Whose face was very like a crow, With eyes, like cinders, all aglow, Who seemed distracted with his woe, Who rocked his body to and fro, And muttered mumblingly and low, As if his mouth were full of dough, That summer evening long ago A sitting on a gate From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 18 07:37:06 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:37:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems: Wordsworth and Stephen In-Reply-To: <42636160.15220.17C993@localhost> References: Message-ID: <426363A2.4110.209D59@localhost> CCX. England and Switzerland, 1802 William Wordsworth Two Voices are there: one is of the Sea, One of the Mountains; each a mighty voice. In both from age to age thou didst rejoice; They were thy chosen music, Liberty! There came a tyrant, and with holy glee 5 Thou fought'st against him,-but hast vainly striven: Thou from thy Alpine holds at length art driven, Where not a torrent murmurs heard by thee. -Of one deep bliss thine ear hath been bereft: Then cleave, O cleave to that which still is left; 10 For, high-soul'd Maid, what sorrow would it be That Mountain floods should thunder as before, And Ocean bellow from his rocky shore, And neither awful Voice be heard by thee! A Sonnet J. K. Stephen Two voices are there: one is of the deep; It learns the storm-cloud's thunderous melody, Now roars, now murmurs with the changing sea, Now bird-like pipes, now closes soft in sleep: And one is of an old half-witted sheep Which bleats articulate monotony, And indicates that two and one are three, That grass is green, lakes damp, and mountains steep: And, Wordsworth, both are thine: at certain times Forth from the heart of thy melodious rhymes, The form and pressure of high thoughts will burst: At other times--good Lord! I'd rather be Quite unacquainted with the ABC Than write such hopeless rubbish as thy worst. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 18 07:41:54 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:41:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems: Lovelace and Guiterman In-Reply-To: <42636160.15220.17C993@localhost> References: Message-ID: <426364C2.21196.250267@localhost> To Lucasta. Going to the Wars Richard Lovelace Tell me not Sweet I am unkind, That from the nunnery Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind To war and arms I fly. True, a new mistress now I chase, The first foe in the field; And with a stronger faith embrace A sword, a horse, a shield. Yet this inconstancy is such As you too shall adore; I could not love thee, dear, so much, Loved I not honor more. To Lucasta Arthur Guiterman Blame me not, Sweet, if here and there My wayward self inclines To note that others, too, are fair, To bow at lesser shrines What though with eye or tongue I praise Iona's gentle wile, Camilla's happy turn of phrase, Or Celia's winning smile? My constancy shall be thy boast From now to Kingdom Come: How could I love thee, Dear, the most Loved I not others some? From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 18 07:43:52 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:43:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems: Updating Miniver Cheevy In-Reply-To: <42636160.15220.17C993@localhost> References: Message-ID: <42636538.22481.26CEA3@localhost> Miniver Cheevy EA Robinson Miniver Cheevy, child of scorn, Grew lean while he assailed the seasons; He wept that he was ever born, And he had reasons. Miniver loved the days of old When swords were bright and steeds were prancing; The vision of a warrior bold Would set him dancing. Miniver sighed for what was not, And dreamed, and rested from his labors; He dreamed of Thebes and Camelot, And Priam's neighbors. Miniver mourned the ripe renown That made so many a name so fragrant; He mourned Romance, now on the town, And Art, a vagrant. Miniver loved the Medici, Albeit he had never seen one; He would have sinned incessantly Could he have been one. Miniver cursed the commonplace And eyed a khaki suit with loathing; He missed the medi?val grace Of iron clothing. Miniver scorned the gold he sought, But sore annoyed was he without it; Miniver thought, and thought, and thought, And thought about it. Miniver Cheevy, born too late, Scratched his head and kept on thinking; Miniver coughed, and called it fate, And kept on drinking. Miniver Cheevy, Jr. DF Parry Miniver Cheevy, Jr., child Of Robinson's renowned creation Also lamented and reviled His generation. Miniver similarly spurned The present that so irked his pater, But that langsyne for which he yearned Came somewhat later. Minver wished he were alive When dividends came due each quarter, When Goldman Sachs was 205 And skirts were shorter. Miniver gave no hoot in hell For Camelot or proud Troy's pillage; He would have much preferred to dwell In Greenwich Village. Miniver cherished fond regrets For days when benefits were boundless; When radios were crystal sets And movies soundless. Miniver missed the iron grills, The whispered word, the swift admission, The bath-tub gin, and other thrills Of Prohibition. Miniver longed, as all men long, To turn back time (his eyes would moisten), To dance the Charleston, play mah jong And smuggle Joyce in. Miniver Cheevy, Jr., swore And drank until the drink imperiled Health, then sighed, and read some more F. Scott Fitzgerald. Guniver Cheevy Marcus Bales Guniver Cheevy, wild with scorn, Grew rude defending weapon-shooting; He wished that guns were always worn To end disputing. Guniver loved the urban nights When tommy-guns set victims dancing; A woman through a rifle's sights Seemed high romancing. Guniver sighed for what was gone, And dreamed, and rested from his labors; He dreamed that he'd become a don And killed his neighbors. Guniver mourned the loss of fear, The absence of the old psychoses, He mourned the old Italian cheer Of mafiosis. Guniver loved the .45 And bores of any millimeters - He practiced long so he'd survive Fast-drawing heaters. Guniver cursed the peaceful scenes Of cars and planes and smug commuters; He missed ejected magazines From drive-by shooters. Guniver scorned the war he sought, And claimed that arms made men politer Instead of into beasts who fought With any fighter. Guniver Cheevy, born too late For state-of-nature wars and warring, Has made mere calling names his fate -- And finds it boring. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 18 07:46:34 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:46:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems: one more Cheevy In-Reply-To: <426364C2.21196.250267@localhost> References: <42636160.15220.17C993@localhost> Message-ID: <426365DA.10298.294581@localhost> Martha Stewart Martha Stewart, child of hype, Grew rich by selling lifestyle passion; She branded every likely type Of changing fashion. Martha used her show to sell Her sense of style to every viewer; But from tales employees tell She's Martha Skewer. Behind the scenes, though, Martha sighed For IPOs and corporate raiding -- And dreamed up schemes to try to hide Insider trading. Martha mourned that party favors Soups, desserts, and canapes Were nothing to the secret savors Of Wall Street's ways. Martha cursed the common stocks And eyed a dividend with loathing She thought they fared like home-made frocks To designer clothing. Martha loved the Merrill Lynches, The ones whose biggest sells and buys Were market-making semi-cinches For just the guys. Martha scorned the laws that cover Publicly traded financial transactions, And now may have to choose a lover From prison factions. The Martha Stewart trial's furors Show it's Martha Stewart's living Which ordinary women jurors Are not forgiving. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 18 08:06:53 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:06:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: <6d5f96bf7f60ba5443af7d8e84f0fd8a@mac.com> References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <42636A9D.11035.3BDF8C@localhost> I think it may be useful to distinguish four kinds of poems that take something of the form or style or manner of someone else's original piece. Imitations, where the new writer is trying to write in the same style of an admired other writer, and no mockery is intended. Response poems reply, more or less directly, to the writer/narrator of the original poems, without attempting to mock the original's form, style, or manner. Parody poems that reply, more generally, to the sensibility that admires the original, in order to satirize the original and its admirers' views of it. Filk poems that don't really reply to the original at all, but rather take the salient characteristics of that original for the writer's own ends. The term "filk" originated as a typo in a sci-fi fan newsletter announcing a "folk song sing" back in memeograph days as a "filk song sing". Since even then many of the songs at sci-fi fan conventions were take-offs of other songs and poems, the term stuck. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Apr 24 08:12:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:12:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems References: <42636160.15220.17C993@localhost> Message-ID: <006a01c548c6$e88f0a20$e79c9951@Robin> Marlowe's Passionate Shepherd to His Love and Ralegh's Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd The Freemartin (Cf Benson's 1640 edition of Shakespeare's poems, in the unlikely event that anyone other than Bob Grumman has encountered this.) From Thom424 at aol.com Mon Apr 18 08:56:56 2005 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:56:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems Anthologies Message-ID: <6194A4CA.1C570FEC.001A46F6@aol.com> See: VISITING EMILY: POEMS INSPIRED BY THE LIFE AND WORK OF EMILY DICKINSON (2001) 78 poems by 78 poets VISITING WALT: POEMS INSPIRED BY THE LIFE AND WORK OF WALT WHITMAN (2003) 100 poems by 100 poets VISITING FROST: POEMS INSPIRED NY THE LIFE AND WORK OF ROBERT FROST (forthcoming, fall 2005)101 poems by 101 poets All edited by Sheila Coghill & Thom Tammaro and published by the University of Iowa Press. And Iowa has just published IN A FINE FRENZY: POETS RESPOND TO SHAKESPEARE (Eds. David Starkey and Paul Willis, spring 2005). thom tammaro moorhead, mn From mandolin at mac.com Mon Apr 18 09:18:48 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:18:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "New" works of Sophocles Message-ID: <4664091.1113830328398.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> and Archilochus, Hesiod, Euripides -- tremendous news http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=630165 ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 09:21:43 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:21:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems References: Message-ID: <001001c54419$92f5a350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Response poemsHang it all, Robert Browning, there is only the one "Sordello." Hang it all, Ezra Pound, there is only the one sestina. And I once wrote a response poem to this, but I can't find it Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems on 4/17/05 4:13 PM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: Can anyone think of other "response poems." (Did I make up a new term? Bob?) Post 'em if you got 'em! Extra points if you post both the poem and its response. Jeff Newberry ============================ Nuances on a Theme by Williams El Hombre It?s a strange courage you give me, ancient star: Shine alone in the sunrise toward which you lend no part. I Shine alone, shine nakedly, shine like bronze that reflects neither my face nor any inner part of my being, shine like fire, that mirrors nothing. II Lend no part to any humanity suffuses you in its own light. Be not chimera of morning, Half-man, half-star. Be not an intelligence, Like a widow's bird Or an old horse. --Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 09:24:58 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:24:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] trimeter/candy is dandy References: <200504180055.j3I0tI0s019807@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <000901c543ba$3cadd350$02614644@STEVECOMPUTER> Message-ID: <004501c5441a$068b2d30$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I was toying with the idea of proposing Ogden Nash for the breakthrough poets list. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven D. Schroeder To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:59 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] trimeter/candy is dandy Yes, trimeter. Also, the "candy is dandy" rhyme is Ogden Nash, not Dorothy Parker. "You might as well live" is indeed Parker. Steven D. Schroeder Editor, The Eleventh Muse http://www.steveschroeder.info/ -- From: "Anthony Robinson" Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach To: "'NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views'" Message-ID: <059f01c543ac$37e493d0$25351c40 at Emily> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Trimeter? > Your reply (nearly?) scans: > > i LOVE the ONE by HECHT > and ALso CHARLES SHULTZ Iambic tetrameter. ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:38:45 -0500 From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems 2 To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" One of my own: I believe I posted this once before, but here it is again! An example of a response to a response. . . . Homage to Arthur Waley Seattle weather: it has rained for weeks in this town, The dampness breeding moths and a gray summer. I sit in the smoky room reading your book again, My eyes raw, hearing the trains steaming below me In the wet yard, and I wonder if you are still alive. Turning the worn pages, reading once more: "By misty waters and rainy sand, while the yellow dusk thickens." --Weldon Kees HOMAGE TO WELDON KEES --after his "Homage to Arthur Waley" Wisconsin fall: windows closed these three weeks, midnight chill you can still smell through the glass. I reach for your book naturally after midnight, work done, listening to the furnace click and halt in my walls, and I study your photo once more. Gazing down on that blueblack ocean you must have joined in 1955. Thinking "even the sound of the rain repeats: *The lease is up, the time is near*." --David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:54:16 +0100 From: "Robin Hamilton" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Message-ID: <087001c54868$241239a0$f09c9951 at Robin> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Trimeter? Dunno. Someone of the 25 Rebel Angels on this list must know, but. Trimeter, schimeter, excuse my perimeter. Alfred Austin The odd thing was that lo these many years ago when I was first accused of being a Rebel Angel, I went white as death. [and than Death it's difficult to get more white] Shite, there's my coven blown. Tittivulus ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:05:29 -0400 From: Thom424 at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN LITERATURE To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Message-ID: <697F5820.2F2322C1.001A46F6 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Thom Tammaro Subject: THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:26:04 -0500 Size: 18188 Url: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050417/77c69c31/ForwardedEmail.mht ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 27 ****************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 09:29:21 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:29:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is dandy References: Message-ID: <006601c5441a$a3d59850$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I can't remember his name, but he's the guy who did those "Watchbird" drawings. Burgess. Not Thornton Burgess, he was "Old Mother West Wind." Clayton Burgess? No, that's not right. Gelett Burgess? Writing this without reading the rest of the thread. Someone else has probably already gotten it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:22 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy is dandy > Yes, that's Ogden Nash. Interesting how much better it is with his > orginal > title--often stripped off. Somewhere Taj Mahal recorded a song containing > his own version of the couplet, adding his own rhyme ("you can get all the > liquor down in Costa Riccer"-- a rather Nashian touch). > > This little dispute reminds me of the classic purple cow poem: how many > could name its author without prompting? And how many know the title? > > > The Purple Cow's Projected Feast: > Reflections on a Mythic Beast, > Who's Quite Remarkable, at Least. > > I never saw a purple cow, > I never hope to see one; > But I can tell you, anyhow, > I'd rather see than be one. > > > The author is Gelett Burgess. Even better is his follow-up poem, I'd say: > > CONFESSION: and a Portrait, Too, > Upon a Background that I Rue! > > Ah, Yes! I Wrote the "Purple Cow" -- > I'm Sorry, now, I Wrote it! > But I can Tell you Anyhow, > I'll Kill you if you Quote it! > > -- Gelett Burgess > > > on 4/17/05 9:46 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > >>> Candy is dandy ... >>>> Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. >>> >> On 24 Apr 2005 at 3:21, Robin Hamilton wrote: >>> Actually, it's *not* Ogden Nash. >> Reflections on Ice-Breaking >> Ogden Nash >> >> Candy >> Is dandy >> But liquor >> Is quicker. >> >> http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/667.html >> >> Marcus >> > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 09:40:49 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:40:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "New" works of Sophocles References: <4664091.1113830328398.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <00e201c5441c$40999ff0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> This is incredible. It's really real? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Snider" To: "New Poetry" ; "Lucifer Poetics Group" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:18 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "New" works of Sophocles > and Archilochus, Hesiod, Euripides -- tremendous news > > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=630165 > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 18 10:36:21 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:36:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems In-Reply-To: <001001c54419$92f5a350$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Response poemsHang it all, Tad Richards, you're always losing everything. Hal Please stand clear of the closing doors. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ Hang it all, Robert Browning, there is only the one "Sordello." Hang it all, Ezra Pound, there is only the one sestina. And I once wrote a response poem to this, but I can't find it Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems on 4/17/05 4:13 PM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: Can anyone think of other "response poems." (Did I make up a new term? Bob?) Post 'em if you got 'em! Extra points if you post both the poem and its response. Jeff Newberry ============================ Nuances on a Theme by Williams El Hombre It?s a strange courage you give me, ancient star: Shine alone in the sunrise toward which you lend no part. I Shine alone, shine nakedly, shine like bronze that reflects neither my face nor any inner part of my being, shine like fire, that mirrors nothing. II Lend no part to any humanity suffuses you in its own light. Be not chimera of morning, Half-man, half-star. Be not an intelligence, Like a widow's bird Or an old horse. --Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 18 10:49:29 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:49:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anolther responsse poem: Gray and Squire In-Reply-To: <42636A9D.11035.3BDF8C@localhost> References: <6d5f96bf7f60ba5443af7d8e84f0fd8a@mac.com> Message-ID: <426390B9.15498.72D418@localhost> Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard Thomas Gray, 1750 The Curfeu tolls the Knell of parting Day, The lowing Herd winds slowly o'er the Lea, The Plow-man homeward plods his weary Way, And leaves the World to Darkness, and to me. Now fades the glimmering Landscape on the Sight, And all the Air a solemn Stillness holds; Save where the Beetle wheels his droning Flight, And drowsy Tinklings lull the distant Folds. Save that from yonder Ivy-mantled Tow'r The mopeing Owl does to the Moon complain Of such as, wand'ring near her secret Bow'r, Molest her ancient solitary Reign. Beneath those rugged Elms, that Yew-Tree's Shade, Where heaves the Turf in many a mould'ring Heap, Each in his narrow Cell for ever laid, The rude Forefathers of the Hamlet sleep. The breezy Call of Incense-breathing Morn, The Swallow twitt'ring from the Straw-built Shed, The Cock's shrill Clarion, or the ecchoing Horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly Bed. For them no more the blazing Hearth shall burn, Or busy Housewife ply her Evening Care: No Children run to lisp their Sire's Return, Or climb his Knees the envied Kiss to share. Oft did the Harvest to their Sickle yield, Their Furrow oft the stubborn Glebe has broke; How jocund did they drive their Team afield! How bow'd the Woods beneath their sturdy Stroke! Let not Ambition mock their useful Toil, Their homely Joys and Destiny obscure; Nor Grandeur hear with a disdainful Smile, The short and simple Annals of the Poor. The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r, And all that Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave, Awaits alike th'inevitable hour. The Paths of Glory lead but to the Grave. Nor you, ye Proud, impute to these the Fault, If Mem'ry o'er their Tomb no Trophies raise, Where thro' the long-drawn Isle and fretted Vault The pealing Anthem swells the Note of Praise. Can storied Urn or animated Bust Back to its Mansion call the fleeting Breath? Can Honour's Voice provoke the silent Dust, Or Flatt'ry sooth the dull cold Ear of Death? Perhaps in this neglected Spot is laid Some Heart once pregnant with celestial Fire, Hands that the Rod of Empire might have sway'd, Or wak'd to Extacy the living Lyre. But Knowledge to their Eyes her ample Page Rich with the Spoils of Time did ne'er unroll; Chill Penury repress'd their noble Rage And froze the genial Current of the Soul. Full many a Gem of purest Ray serene, The dark unfathom'd Caves of Ocean bear: Full many a Flower is born to blush unseen, And waste its Sweetness on the desert Air. Some Village-Hampden that with dauntless Breast The little Tyrant of his Fields withstood; Some mute inglorious Milton here may rest, Some Cromwell guiltless of his Country's Blood. Th'Applause of list'ning Senates to command, The Threats of Pain and Ruin to despise, To scatter Plenty o'er a smiling Land, And read their Hist'ry in a Nation's Eyes Their Lot forbad: nor circumscrib'd alone Their growing Virtues, but their Crimes confin'd; Forbad to wade through Slaughter to a Throne, And shut the Gates of Mercy on Mankind, The struggling Pangs of conscious Truth to hide, To quench the Blushes of ingenuous Shame, Or heap the Shrine of Luxury and Pride With Incense, kindled at the Muse's Flame. Far from the madding Crowd's ignoble Strife, Their sober Wishes never learn'd to stray; Along the cool sequester'd Vale of Life They kept the noiseless Tenor of their Way. Yet ev'n these Bones from Insult to protect Some frail Memorial still erected nigh, With uncouth Rhimes and shapeless Sculpture deck'd, Implores the passing Tribute of a Sigh. Their Name, their Years, spelt by th'unletter'd Muse, The place of Fame and Elegy supply: And many a holy Text around she strews, That teach the rustic Moralist to dye. For who to dumb Forgetfulness a Prey, This pleasing anxious Being e'er resigned, Left the warm Precincts of the cheerful Day, Nor cast one longing ling'ring Look behind? On some fond Breast the parting Soul relies, Some pious Drops the closing Eye requires; Ev'n from the Tomb the Voice of Nature cries, Ev'n in our Ashes live their wonted Fires. For thee, who mindful of th'unhonoured Dead Dost in these lines their artless Tale relate; If chance, by lonely Contemplation led, Some kindred Spirit shall inquire thy Fate, Haply some hoary-headed Swain may say, 'Oft have we seen him at the Peep of Dawn 'Brushing with hasty Steps the Dews away 'To meet the Sun upon the upland Lawn. 'There at the Foot of yonder nodding Beech 'That wreathes its old fantastic Roots so high, 'His listless Length at Noontide wou'd he stretch, 'And pore upon the Brook that babbles by. 'Hard by yon Wood, now smiling as in Scorn, 'Mutt'ring his wayward Fancies he wou'd rove, 'Now drooping, woeful wan, like one forlorn, 'Or craz'd with Care, or cross'd in hopeless Love. 'One Morn I miss'd him on the custom'd Hill, 'Along the Heath, and near his fav'rite Tree; 'Another came; nor yet beside the Rill, 'Nor up the Lawn, nor at the Wood was he. 'The next with Dirges due in sad Array 'Slow thro' the Church-way Path we saw him born. 'Approach and read (for thou can'st read) the Lay, 'Grav'd on the Stone beneath yon aged Thorn.' (There scatter'd oft, the earliest of the Year, By Hands unseen, are Show'rs of Violets found: The Red-breast loves to bill and warble there, And little Footsteps lightly print the Ground.) THE EPITAPH Here rests his Head upon the Lap of Earth A Youth to Fortune and to Fame unknown: Fair Science frown'd not on his humble Birth, And Melancholy mark'd him for her own. Large was his Bounty, and his Soul sincere, Heav'n did a Recompence as largely send: He gave to Mis'ry all he had, a Tear: He gain'd from Heav'n ('twas all he wish'd) a Friend. No farther seek his Merits to disclose, Or draw his Frail ties from their dread Abode, (There they alike in trembling Hope repose) The Bosom of his Father and his God. Elegy in the Cemetery of Spoon River instead of in that of Stoke Poges Jack Collings Squire The curfew tolls the knell of parting day, The whippoorwill salutes the rising moon And wanly glimmer in her gentle ray The sinuous windings of the turbid Spoon. Here where the flattering and mendacious swarm Of lying epitaphs their secrets keep, At last incapable of further harm The lewd forefathers of the village sleep. The earliest drug of half-awakened morn Cocaine or hashish, strychnine, poppy-seeds, Or fiery produce of fermented corn No more shall start them on the day's misdeeds. For them no more the whetstone's cheerful noise. No more the sun upon his daily course Shall watch them savouring the genial joys Of murder, bigamy, arson, and divorce. Here they all lie; and, as the hour is late, O stranger, o'er their tombstones cease to stoop, But bow thine ear to me and contemplate Unexpurgated annals of the group. There are two hundred only; yet of these Some thirty died of drowning in the river, Sixteen went mad, ten others had D.T.'s, And twenty-eight cirrhosis of the liver. Several by absent-minded friends were shot, Still more blew out their own exhausted brains, One died of a mysterious inward rot, Three fell off roofs, and five were hit by trains. One was harpooned, one gored by a bull moose, Four on the Fourth fell victims to lock jaw Ten in electric chair or hempen noose Suffered the last exaction of the law. Stranger, you quail, and seem inclined to run; But, timid stranger, do not be unnerved; I can assure you that there was not one Who got a tithe of what he had deserved. Full many a vice is born to thrive unseen, Full many a crime the world does not discuss, Full many a pervert lives to reach a green Replete old age, and so it was with us. Here lies a parson who would often make Clandestine rendevous with Claflin's Moll, And 'neath the druggist's counter creep to take A surreptitious sip of alcohol. And here a doctor, who had seven wives And fearing this menage might seem grotesque Persuaded six of them to spend their lives Locked in a drawer of his private desk. And others here there sleep who, given scope, Had writ their names large on the Scrolls of Crime; Men who, with half a chance, might haply cope With the first miscreants of recorded crime. Doubtless in this neglected spot is laid Some village Nero who has missed his due, Some Bluebeard who dissected many a maid And all for naught, since no one ever knew. Some poor bucolic Borgia here may rest Whose poisons sent whole families to their doom, Some hayseed Herod who, within his breast, Concealed the sites of many an infant's tomb. Types that the Muse of Masefield might have stirred, Or waked to ecstasy Gaboriau, Each in his narrow cell at last interred, All, all are sleeping peacefully below. Enough, enough! But, strangere, ere we part, Glancing farewell to each nefarious bier, This warning I would beg you to take to heart: "There is an end to even the worst career!" From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 10:53:00 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:53:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems References: Message-ID: <015601c54426$530500d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Response poemsI do remember that the first line was "Fuck you, Donald Hall, I'm going to write a sestina." Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 10:36 AM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Response poems Hang it all, Tad Richards, you're always losing everything. Hal Please stand clear of the closing doors. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ Hang it all, Robert Browning, there is only the one "Sordello." Hang it all, Ezra Pound, there is only the one sestina. And I once wrote a response poem to this, but I can't find it Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 8:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Response poems on 4/17/05 4:13 PM, Jeff Newberry at jeff.newberry at gmail.com wrote: Can anyone think of other "response poems." (Did I make up a new term? Bob?) Post 'em if you got 'em! Extra points if you post both the poem and its response. Jeff Newberry ============================ Nuances on a Theme by Williams El Hombre It?s a strange courage you give me, ancient star: Shine alone in the sunrise toward which you lend no part. I Shine alone, shine nakedly, shine like bronze that reflects neither my face nor any inner part of my being, shine like fire, that mirrors nothing. II Lend no part to any humanity suffuses you in its own light. Be not chimera of morning, Half-man, half-star. Be not an intelligence, Like a widow's bird Or an old horse. --Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 12:08:24 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:08:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: <42636A9D.11035.3BDF8C@localhost> References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> <6d5f96bf7f60ba5443af7d8e84f0fd8a@mac.com> <42636A9D.11035.3BDF8C@localhost> Message-ID: <731bb17a0504180908267c4a0@mail.gmail.com> Marcus, Thanks so much for posting all of these poems. I had no idea the tradition reached back as far as it does. I had a professor in graduate school argue that modern films are really about nothing else but other films--a reductive argument, for certain. But, when I look at poetry, I wonder how much and/or how often poets write with another poet in mind--or with even a specific poem in mind. By the way, I find the categories very useful. Particularly your point about parody. Too often, parody is merely dismissive and doesn't fully capture any of the language or the spirit of the original. Though not poetry, one of the best parodies I've ever read is by Dan Greenburg--"Catch Her in the Oatmeal." http://www.monmouth.com/~literature/catcher/parody_salinger.html It's a hoot. Thanks again, Marcus, for taking the time. And thanks to everyone else who've posted poems. Yours, Jeff Newberry On 4/18/05, Marcus Bales wrote: > I think it may be useful to distinguish four kinds of poems that take > something of the form or style or manner of someone else's original > piece. > > Imitations, where the new writer is trying to write in the same style > of an admired other writer, and no mockery is intended. > > Response poems reply, more or less directly, to the writer/narrator > of the original poems, without attempting to mock the original's > form, style, or manner. > > Parody poems that reply, more generally, to the sensibility that > admires the original, in order to satirize the original and its > admirers' views of it. > > Filk poems that don't really reply to the original at all, but rather > take the salient characteristics of that original for the writer's > own ends. The term "filk" originated as a typo in a sci-fi fan > newsletter announcing a "folk song sing" back in memeograph days as a > "filk song sing". Since even then many of the songs at sci-fi fan > conventions were take-offs of other songs and poems, the term stuck. > > Marcus > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 13:13:20 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:13:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0504180908267c4a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <011701c54385$4fab1290$d2ab3452@ANNY> <6d5f96bf7f60ba5443af7d8e84f0fd8a@mac.com> <42636A9D.11035.3BDF8C@localhost> <731bb17a0504180908267c4a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a05041810133db6d5e@mail.gmail.com> I wrote: > Thanks again, Marcus, for taking the time. And thanks to everyone > else who've posted poems. > Should be "who's posted poems," right? Isn't "everyone else" singular? I know that "everyone" is singular--at least I think I do. Or is it an indefinite pronoun? Would "else" imply lots of other folks??? Aargh!! Geez . . . it's too damn late in the semester ... Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 18 13:43:54 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:43:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: <731bb17a0504180908267c4a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: { I had no idea the tradition reached back as far as it does. And farther back yet-- A Response to Wang Ssu-y?an's Poem on the Moon Splendor of the moon shines down on quiet night, And night is quiet, quenching fumes and dust, Square moonbeams flood in at the door While rounded flecks come filtered through the cracks. On her high tower they wound the yearning wife; In western garden sport with men of talent; Through curtained casement gleam from pearl-sewn threads; Before the gate shine on the verdant moss; But in the inmost chamber where the dawn has not yet come-- The limpid radiance--ah, how far away! --Shen Y?eh (441-512) tr. Richard B. Mather Hal "Poetry read out loud is never quite so beautiful as poetry read in silence." --Donald Hall Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 18 16:10:19 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:10:19 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] "New" works of Sophocles References: <4664091.1113830328398.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <00e201c5441c$40999ff0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <002001c54452$a61a5dc0$e9df3052@ANNY> :-) this is the second thing today that has made my Day! thanks Tad, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "New" works of Sophocles > This is incredible. It's really real? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Snider" > To: "New Poetry" ; "Lucifer Poetics Group" > > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:18 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] "New" works of Sophocles > > >> and Archilochus, Hesiod, Euripides -- tremendous news >> >> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=630165 >> >> ----- >> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. >> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 18 16:46:51 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:46:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: Message-ID: <017101c54457$c03094e0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Question: what poem can anyone name that is NOT a response poem of some sort? Perhaps a response poem should be defined as one which clearly responds to a single other poet to a much greater degree than it responds to the others it will inevitably respond to. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 18:01:26 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:01:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: <017101c54457$c03094e0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002501c54462$2d36ff70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I hadn't realized anyone was unclear on this point. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general > Question: what poem can anyone name that is NOT a response poem of some > sort? Perhaps a response poem should be defined as one which clearly > responds to a single other poet to a much greater degree than it responds > to the others it will inevitably respond to. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 18 18:08:07 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:08:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: <017101c54457$c03094e0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Problem is that such a narrow definition would rule out some of the best response poems of all: e.g., Kenneth Koch's "Fresh Air." Hal "The only way to do it is to do it." --Merce Cunningham Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ { Question: what poem can anyone name that is NOT a response poem of some { sort? Perhaps a response poem should be defined as one which clearly { responds to a single other poet to a much greater degree than it responds to { the others it will inevitably respond to. { { --Bob G. { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 18 18:15:46 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:15:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: <017101c54457$c03094e0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002501c54462$2d36ff70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01da01c54464$2bc0c840$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I hadn't realized anyone was unclear on this point. Everyone, apparently, but I, Mole. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 18 18:21:43 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:21:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: <017101c54457$c03094e0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002501c54462$2d36ff70$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01e101c54465$00b33f60$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I hadn't realized anyone was unclear on this point. > > One definition of a response poem indicated it might be done in emulation of some admired poet--which all of my poems in some sense are, but I wouldn't call them all response poems, so wanted to make explicit a distinction between response-to-poets poems and response-to-one-poet poems. The sonnet I have at Anny's site, I just remembered, is based on Keats's Chapman poem, and explicitly responds to the poetry of Stevens, Yeats, Pound and Roethke. I'm not sure how I would classify it, response-poemwise. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 18 18:28:04 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:28:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy -- Creative Msreadings References: Message-ID: <019001c54465$e44993a0$e79c9951@Robin> Now that David has rubbed my nose in the fact that I quite wildly screwed-up over the attribution of the Nash lines, it's pretty obvious where the title comes from -- reinforces the fact that the poem is a rather sad failed chat-up line rather than a Political Observation. But actually, I rather like the idea of creative misreadings. My first and possibly most stunning one was when I overheard someone quote Ian Hamilton Finlay's lines: The dancers inherit the Party While the talkers sit alone in the corners, and glower. Geez, I thought, that's a singularly perceptive comment on Stalinist Russia. The problem is, of course, that the text has (as I later found) out, a lower-case p in party, so it deals with wallflowers rather than Apparatiks Confessing All. Then there was the middle English lyric, "Louerd thu clepedst me." I put quite a lot of work into that, trying to demonstrate that it turned on a man pretending to be asleep in a bed ignoring his girlfriend trying to poke him awake. There are two quite severe problems with this, and the less severe is that you can't (and god did I try!) find *any* middle English spelling, no matter how you cut it, where "Louerd" can be understood as "beloved". Crucially, it's a straight lift from a Latin sentence in Augustine's +Confessions+, drawing on 1Samuel3. Why does the clock never strike thirteen? The Freemartin REGARDING THE WORLD The bright bird flies in at a window, circles once around the torch-lit hall with its high feasting and merriment, And as suddenly is gone. We have eaten garlic everyone: If I must to hell be gone, I know I shall not go alone. Lord, you called to me And I answered nothing to thee But words all sleepy and slow: 'Endure a little, endure it yet.' But 'yet and yet' is endless, And 'endure a little' must go on still. My love was mine and my life led in her: When we rode on high-mettled horses By the side of the stream, hawks On our wrists, hounds all before us -- The day of our love seemed a fair, long day. They took no heed of God's commands, They felt no sin within their hands, Their eyes were bright and they laughed long: Now stark in graves they lie each one. Some were called suddenly to a door by the side of the hall, Exchanged a few words with the messenger And were gone. Others faltered in the midst of the pattern, Stumbled stricken and bewildered Out of the light of the torches. Yet others went on with the dance and the drinking, All the sweet talk interchanged in the sweep of the measures, Until grey dawn turned the torches dim, and the spilled wine Stood out in dark stains on their clothing. They are all gone now, the fair and the high ones, The ones of wit and wealth and gentle breeding -- All are swept up with the flowers of their dancing, Both rage and grace are stilled in an empty hall. They took no heed of God nor of his Son: Now is their game and play Turned all awry in every way. They lived their lives as if today Were the only day, tomorrow A vague possibility, God faint, distant, and understanding, And age and death even further off. The grave gapes equally for every mortal -- The low-voiced ladies with their sable stoles slung round their necks, The brave and generous cavalry captains bringing their honour bright back from battle, Serious counsellors and diligent researchers, each striving for some good in their own sphere -- All will be judged and mocked by that last judgement: This life a pain made to be endured and not enjoyed. And whether death comes quick and wily in the sly grasp of a virus, Or at the end of a rational and well-spent life, Whether it falls thundering like a bolt from the sky Or with a dry hacking cough skulks down the course of years: Death comes to all no matter how proud nor how holy, Life's little-ease draws ever closer at the end. Beloved, you called to me And I answered nothing to thee But sleepy words and slow: 'Wait a little, wait a while.' But that little time was endless, And 'wait a while' a long way is. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 18 18:30:55 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:30:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: Message-ID: <01ec01c54466$49d92e10$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > { Question: what poem can anyone name that is NOT a response poem of > some > { sort? Perhaps a response poem should be defined as one which clearly > { responds to a single other poet to a much greater degree than it > responds to > { the others it will inevitably respond to. > { > { --Bob G. > > Problem is that such a narrow definition would rule out > some of the best response poems of all: e.g., Kenneth > Koch's "Fresh Air." Why not then refine the definition instead of implicitly suggesting we go with no definition, Hal? Or divide it into mono-responsive poems and poly-responsive poems, the latter being poems that explicitly and clearly respond to more than one other specific poem. Distinguishing between poems responding to other poems, and poems responding to other poets, seems important to me, also. We seem to have been assuming a response poem is responding to another poem, yes? Maybe there are response poems that respond to a single specific poem by someone else, and response passages, which do so. --Bob G. From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 18:35:57 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:35:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: <01ec01c54466$49d92e10$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004d01c54466$ff87ccd0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I like the idea of no definition. In fact. I think we should extend it. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general >> { Question: what poem can anyone name that is NOT a response poem of >> some >> { sort? Perhaps a response poem should be defined as one which >> clearly >> { responds to a single other poet to a much greater degree than it >> responds to >> { the others it will inevitably respond to. >> { >> { --Bob G. > > >> >> Problem is that such a narrow definition would rule out >> some of the best response poems of all: e.g., Kenneth >> Koch's "Fresh Air." > > > Why not then refine the definition instead of implicitly suggesting we go > with no definition, Hal? Or divide it into mono-responsive poems and > poly-responsive poems, the latter being poems that explicitly and clearly > respond to more than one other specific poem. Distinguishing between > poems responding to other poems, and poems responding to other poets, > seems important to me, also. We seem to have been assuming a response > poem is responding to another poem, yes? > > Maybe there are response poems that respond to a single specific poem by > someone else, and response passages, which do so. > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 18 18:40:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:40:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy -- Creative Msreadings References: <019001c54465$e44993a0$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <01f501c54467$9f21a630$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I at first misread (for no typographical reason) "All are swept up with the flowers of their dancing" as "All are swept up IN the flowers of their dancing . . ." --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 18 19:03:03 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:03:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: <01ec01c54466$49d92e10$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004d01c54466$ff87ccd0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01fe01c5446a$c71e6fd0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I like the idea of no definition. > > In fact. I think we should extend it. > > > > Tad Richards Why? It's already in force for you. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 18 19:28:12 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:28:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy -- Creative Msreadings References: <019001c54465$e44993a0$e79c9951@Robin> <01f501c54467$9f21a630$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01b001c5446e$4aa7cf10$e79c9951@Robin> > I at first misread (for no typographical reason) "All are swept up with the > flowers of their dancing" as "All are swept up IN the flowers of their > dancing . . ." > > --Bob G. No problem, but it actually is Significantly Different. I think that particular quatrain was first crafted in the sixties. I could look it up and transcribe it, I suppose, but I can't be bothered. Dust and ashes, dead and done with, Venice spent ... The Freemartin From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 19:32:53 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:32:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: <01ec01c54466$49d92e10$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><004d01c54466$ff87ccd0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01fe01c5446a$c71e6fd0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <006d01c5446e$f446f730$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> May the force be with me. Actually, I like that even better. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general > > >>I like the idea of no definition. >> >> In fact. I think we should extend it. >> >> >> >> Tad Richards > > Why? It's already in force for you. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 18 19:53:49 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:53:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy -- Creative Msreadings References: <019001c54465$e44993a0$e79c9951@Robin><01f501c54467$9f21a630$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01b001c5446e$4aa7cf10$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <021201c54471$de4b57c0$2ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> I at first misread (for no typographical reason) "All are swept up with > the >> flowers of their dancing" as "All are swept up IN the flowers of their >> dancing . . ." >> >> --Bob G. > > No problem, but it actually is Significantly Different. > Right. But I like my misreading as a small poem by itself. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Apr 18 20:57:22 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:57:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day Message-ID: >From an audio interview with Billy Collins currently up at The Cortland Review: "It's the hypothetical that makes us human." http://www.cortlandreview.com/ ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 18 21:27:57 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:27:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day References: Message-ID: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin> From: "David Graham" > >From an audio interview with Billy Collins currently up at The Cortland > Review: > > "It's the hypothetical that makes us human." It's the rich what gets the pleasure, It's the poor what gets the blame. Trust a Rebel Angel to catch the rhythm and totally screw the semantics. :-( The Freemartin From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 21:37:15 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:37:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> And it's always the old to take us to war And it's always the young to die Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day > From: "David Graham" > >> >From an audio interview with Billy Collins currently up at The Cortland >> Review: >> >> "It's the hypothetical that makes us human." > > It's the rich what gets the pleasure, > It's the poor what gets the blame. > > Trust a Rebel Angel to catch the rhythm and totally screw the semantics. > > :-( > > The Freemartin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 22:27:19 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:27:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day In-Reply-To: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin> References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <731bb17a050418192720049a1c@mail.gmail.com> Billy Collins is a "Rebel Angel?" News to me. Jeff Newberry On 4/18/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "David Graham" > > > >From an audio interview with Billy Collins currently up at The Cortland > > Review: > > > > "It's the hypothetical that makes us human." > > It's the rich what gets the pleasure, > It's the poor what gets the blame. > > Trust a Rebel Angel to catch the rhythm and totally screw the semantics. > > :-( > > The Freemartin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 18 23:08:31 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 04:08:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin> <001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <021401c5448d$11e7ab40$e79c9951@Robin> From: "The Old Mole" > And it's always the old to take us to war > And it's always the young to die Sassoon? The Freemartin From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 18 23:39:51 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:39:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin><001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021401c5448d$11e7ab40$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <000a01c54491$76c780e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Phil Ochs - "I Ain't Marchin' Anymore" Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thought for the day > From: "The Old Mole" > >> And it's always the old to take us to war >> And it's always the young to die > > Sassoon? > > The Freemartin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 19 06:41:05 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:41:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin> <001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <009f01c544cc$4a9fc910$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I guess no one's interested in discussing groundbreaking poetry. I wanted to say a few more things about it, though. David Graham thinks influentiality has much to do with it "groundbreaking." I don't see that. One reason for that is that it seems to me many poets are influential who aren't groundbreaking in even the feeble way that introducing some new subject matter to poetry is. Billy Collins, for instance. I don't know if many poets are imitating him, but what if they did? He would be influential simply for getting them to compose in his unoriginal way. Or take Frost. Many emulate Frost. But he did nothing significantly new. (Nothing, as I've said, other than the use of idiosyncratic outlook, tone, specific subject matter and locutions which is true of all good poets. If he'd never existed, they would imitate Thomas Hardy, and write pretty much the same poems. Almost all the poets with books on the academy list are like that--only infulential in the sense of representing a kind of poetry many did before them or at the same time as they. Also, what makes a poet who is not influential but does something new not groundbreaking? He is simply not productively groundbreaking. --Bob G. From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 08:50:50 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:50:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry In-Reply-To: <009f01c544cc$4a9fc910$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin> <001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <009f01c544cc$4a9fc910$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a050419055078d89865@mail.gmail.com> Bob, I've asked before; I'll ask again. May we *please* see your list of groundbreaking books of poetry? *Please?* Jeff Newberry On 4/19/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > I guess no one's interested in discussing groundbreaking poetry. I wanted > to say a few more things about it, though. David Graham thinks > influentiality has much to do with it "groundbreaking." I don't see that. > One reason for that is that it seems to me many poets are influential who > aren't groundbreaking in even the feeble way that introducing some new > subject matter to poetry is. Billy Collins, for instance. I don't know if > many poets are imitating him, but what if they did? He would be influential > simply for getting them to compose in his unoriginal way. Or take Frost. > Many emulate Frost. But he did nothing significantly new. (Nothing, as > I've said, other than the use of idiosyncratic outlook, tone, specific > subject matter and locutions which is true of all good poets. If he'd never > existed, they would imitate Thomas Hardy, and write pretty much the same > poems. Almost all the poets with books on the academy list are like > that--only infulential in the sense of representing a kind of poetry many > did before them or at the same time as they. > > Also, what makes a poet who is not influential but does something new not > groundbreaking? He is simply not productively groundbreaking. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Apr 19 14:04:41 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:04:41 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? In-Reply-To: <200504191600.j3JG040s001552@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050419104948.029bb3e8@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:00 PM 4/19/2005 -0400, Bob wrote: >"new " (several times, as is his wont) Accepted idiocy: sole value in "new" (utility, quality, beauty, blah, jus' "is it "new?") Example zxxneuihofgn (new, right? -- what else you want?) We in Yiddish have a cognate: "noo?" (meaning "what's up?" but more importantly:"huhn?") Please, Bob, pause the sales-campaign-via-vilification jus' for a mo', okay? Consider: EVERY TRUE POEM IS NEW. (one feature, granted, among amany delightful qualities) Poetry Fast-Food: poems that are ONLY, preeningly "new" (like "&&775***', for example) a public-service message from the Aunty-Bob, cheers to all perassohposapaths on the Bob-List, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 19 14:28:34 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:28:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050419104948.029bb3e8@incoming.verizon.net> References: <200504191600.j3JG040s001552@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <42651592.29860.1441243@localhost> LOL! M On 19 Apr 2005 at 11:04, Barry Spacks wrote: > > At 12:00 PM 4/19/2005 -0400, Bob wrote: > "new " (several times, as is his wont) > > Accepted idiocy: sole value in "new" > (utility, quality, beauty, blah, jus' "is it "new?") > > Example zxxneuihofgn > (new, right? -- what else you want?) > > We in Yiddish have a cognate: "noo?" > (meaning "what's up?" but more importantly:"huhn?") > > Please, Bob, pause the sales-campaign-via-vilification > jus' for a mo', okay? Consider: EVERY TRUE POEM IS NEW. > (one feature, granted, among amany delightful qualities) > > Poetry Fast-Food: poems that are ONLY, preeningly "new" > (like "&&775***', for example) > > a public-service message from the Aunty-Bob, > > cheers to all perassohposapaths on the Bob-List, > > Barry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 19 14:30:00 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:30:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bishop and sestina Message-ID: <68.5400a9c1.2f96a828@cs.com> Does anybody recall reading an article somewhere recently about Elizabeth Bishop and the sestina? If so, where and when? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 15:04:31 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:04:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bishop and sestina In-Reply-To: <68.5400a9c1.2f96a828@cs.com> References: <68.5400a9c1.2f96a828@cs.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a05041912045bd643f4@mail.gmail.com> Found this citation on my school's databases: REPRESENTING OTHER VOICES: RHETORICAL PERSPECTIVE IN ELIZABETH BISHOP , By: Wolosky, Shira, Style, 00394238, Spring95, Vol. 29, Issue 1 Not very recent, however. Jeff Newberry On 4/19/05, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Does anybody recall reading an article somewhere recently about Elizabeth > Bishop and the sestina? If so, where and when? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 19 15:12:05 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:12:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin><001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009f01c544cc$4a9fc910$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a050419055078d89865@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f001c54513$ad0b9600$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob, > > I've asked before; I'll ask again. > > May we *please* see your list of groundbreaking books of poetry? Well, Jeff, I've mentioned a few before--plus your request came on the heels of the one from a moron. Also, I make distinctions, so it's very hard to name specific books. Easier to name specific groundbreaking poets--in other words, which book of their was THE groundbreaker, I don't really know. Also, the books wouldn't mean anything to you. BUT, taking off my original assertion, which was that I thought my micro-press had published more ground-breaking books than the academy had listed--which means more than six, not more than 31, because I had previously stated that I thought there were only around six books on the academy list that qualified as groundbreaking, I'll list 7 from my 1996 catalogue: THE QUOTES OF ROATAR STORCH by mIEKAL AND (as he calls himself); THE FLIGHT TO THE MOON by Michael Basinski, SWELLING by John M. Bennett, M-FACTOR by Guy R. Beining, BRAMBU DREZI by Jake Berry, WARP AND PEACE by Jonathan Brannen, and CONFLATIO by John Byrum. The problems with calling these groundbreaking: each of the authors named has done other collections that may be more importantly groundbreaking; they are all contempraries of mine, so--while their works may seem groundbreaking to me because I can't know all the works out there, future generations might note that one or more of them is derivative of some work I'm unfamiliar with. There's also the problem of leavel of groundbreaking. I consider Cummings the most groundbreaking pre-contemporary American poet by at least one level of magnitude, then Pound and Whitman. I'd rank Bennett from my list at least with Pound and Whitman as a groundbreaker, and maybe not far behind Cummings. Jake Berry may be that high, too. And Brambu Drezi IS his most groundbreaking work. Just to give certain people at New-Poetry something extra to choke on, I will further state that I'm SURE that my own Runaway Spoon Book, DOING LONG DIVISION IN COLOR is an important ground-breaking work. I'm sure there are several language poets I've not published who have done ground-breakers--Clark Coolidge almost certainly, for one. Bob Grenier. Maybe even Silliman; not, I don't think, Charles Bernstein. Final note. This is not ex cathedra. This is my part of an informal discussion. I mean it, but I don't mean it the way I would if I published it in a formal essay I posted at my website--or, one step up, as part of a published book. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 19 15:22:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:22:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050419104948.029bb3e8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <012701c54515$1f521530$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Barry, while I agree that every poem is new, even an exact copy of some previous poem since it will consist of new ink on new paper, and its letters won't exactly match the letters of the poem it's a copy of, I claim that there are levels of newness, and that some poems do things that are significantly new, and that signifcant newness is important, and is what makes something groundbreaking. I do not say that newness is all that counts, but you've now misrepresented me as saying that something like twenty times, so I don't expect you to accept it. In fact, I once posted several times about my distinction between poems that were commendable because of their effectiveness and poems that were commendable even though not effective because of their innovativeness. Question: do you think that a poem's doing something signficantly new (and effective) is not something to praise? Do you even believe it's possible for a poem to do something significantly new and effective? What is your problem with newness? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 19 15:30:22 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:30:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: ass.press In-Reply-To: <731bb17a05041912045bd643f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <68.5400a9c1.2f96a828@cs.com> <731bb17a05041912045bd643f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42655C4E.8080807@ix.netcom.com> */ The Assassinated Press /* http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ U.S. Military Sends Lethal Message; Murders Marla Ruzicka, Aid Worker Counting Iraqi Dead And Injured The Editors The Assassinated Press 4/19/05 Washington DC---Marla Ruzicka and her NGO, CIVIC, paid dearly Saturday for their political naivet?. The whole notion that the U.S. Government had any interest in a U.S. citizen gathering information on Iraqi dead and wounded, civilian or otherwise, ran counter to every threat issued from the Cheney administration since this war for oil, natural gas and water began. The U.S. military itself made it clear that it would not even attempt to count Iraqi civilian deaths much less the deaths at the hands of U.S. forces. The media which expressed such admiration for the young women after she had been cut down by American forces doesn't have the courage to speak up though it clearly is murder. And this right on the tail of an attempt to murder an Italian journalist, Giuliana Sgrena, after her ransom from Islamic militants. And the spineless NGOs have not spoken up either, waiting for the official cover-up and the memory hole to do their dirty work for them. Fuckin' Christ! Need we be reminded again why no one should join such worthless, liberal white people's groups. After the second invasion of Iraq, Ruzicka moved her push for an accurate count of civilian casualties to Baghdad. As anyone in the State Department could have told her, that was like signing her death warrant. The Cheney administration had made it abundantly clear that they had no intention of letting anyone count and go public with the figures of Iraqi casualties, non-combatants or no. No American coffins, bodybags, wounded; no little girls napalmed, naked rushing headlong screaming into a camera. Not that these things aren't happening as we speak in Iraq caused by American fire power. Its just Americans ain't going to see it because when you approach that kind of freedom, you can't find fodder. Not even with Toby Keith and Bill O'Realy(!?). It was clear that Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted a clear break from the Vietnam era when the Wise Brahmin Bean Counters around Robert McNamara used body counts to rah-rah the asshole, hard hat schmucks back home. MACV murdered so many Viet Cong that Dean Rusk produced figures that the showed the whole fuckin' country of Veet Nam would be de-populated by 1978. Then came Tet. If there was no one left to fight because our crack troops like our Swart Butt Veteran Chubbies had killed them all, who the fuck launched Tet---the souls in Purgatory? The U.S. Military didn't want Ruzicka there in Iraq anymore than they wanted an Italian commie journalist. And how hard would it be to rub out somebody naive enough to approach a member of Congress for help to aid displaced civilians in Iraq. Christ! She called her organization the Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict. Can you imagine the guffaw a seasoned killer like Leahy got out of that? Going to an 'elected' official with such an agenda is tantamount to signing your death warrant. Look who your countrymen are. The ones who think they elect that slime. How long do you think it took Patrick Leahy to call the Pentagon and liaison on the problem and discuss how to proceed? You still countin'. I'm done. Then the rest of the killers who stalk that big granite juicer on the hill are unnecessarily alerted to this 'threat' when a measly ten million dollar appropriation is passed which is mostly stolen before it leaves the Capitol. So now you got Hastert, Frist, Santorum and the rest of the 'right to life' altar boys calling the Pentagon and intelligence. Now, they know who at the Pentagon and the CIA who to kill. Of course, an ambitious major or two in Iraq has tried to turn in Marla and her org. But nobody's got the juice like a senior senator from Hell---or Tennessee. Just like in Vietnam there are Colonels in Iraq with more than ten million American dollars in their office safes to pay off assassins etc. Y bet that money is supposed to go toward the purchase of continued and enhanced American political and economic hegemony and not no bleeding heart liberal, group that can't take a hint, or at least isn't reading the cheerleading at the Washington Post that spent buckets of digital ink right along with Rush Limbaugh et al to refute estimates that Iraqi civilian deaths had reached 100,000 when 600,000 Iraqi children had died due to the U.S. embargo before the bombs started raining like maniac manna again. Now, watch maybe for an Abu Graib type scapegoating of subordinates if too much evidence surfaces implicating the U.S. government in Ruzicka's murder. "Oh we got the bad boys and girls," says Gen. "Little Dickie" Myers. They all happen to be from states where they marry their first cousins like in Afghanistan." Don't expect much from the media. It's not just that they are amoral cowards, but they are looking to cash in. Remember 'democracy' is coming to the Middle East and in the United States of Delirium 'democracy' has long been conflated with capitalism. Already, the Iraqi's got Deputy Dawg between Crest toothpaste commercials and what one American sorry fuck in a million knows Proctor and Gamble's record on the environment---or cares. It ain't even funny that Miss Ruzicka died under physical circumstances, as initiated by the powers that be, similar to that great student of Southeast Asia, Bernard Fall. Had Fall not been murdered, one fantasizes that he might have helped save millions of families-- Thai, Cambodian, Laotian, Vietnamese, American, Australian, British, Filipino etc. collective millennia of grief resulting from "a land war in Southeast Asia." But if you aren't saying the right thing, the thing the U.S. kleptocracy wants to hear and you are perceived to have some influence then your elimination is at their discretion and just a matter of opportunity and convenience. This is the way her liberal media acquaintances would have it: "It's still unclear exactly how Marla and her driver, Faiz, were killed. But early reports indicate that they were traveling on the dangerous route between Baghdad and the airport when a suicide car bomber tried to attack a military convoy." "Then we got a call from the US military saying a woman fitting her description had been in an accident, but that she was in the military hospital and in good condition. We were relieved. In Baghdad's strange logic, we all thanked God it was a car accident and not a kidnapping. Then we received another call. It was the military again. This time they said the woman was dead on arrival." The Assassinated Press thought Marla Ruzicka deserved better. From shkodrov at yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 15:49:33 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050419194933.14661.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> Bob asked: >> What is your problem with newness? << MY problem (not only!) with "newness" is when it becomes obsessive... Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right. ~ Isaac Asimov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 19 16:30:23 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:30:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry In-Reply-To: <00f001c54513$ad0b9600$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4265321F.12159.1B3993C@localhost> On 19 Apr 2005 at 15:12, Bob Grumman wrote: > Final note. This is not ex cathedra. This is my part of an informal > discussion. I mean it, but I don't mean it the way I would if I > published it in a formal essay I posted at my website--or, one step > up, as part of a published book.< In short, it's bullshit. Well, we all knew that. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 19 15:56:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:56:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? References: <20050419194933.14661.qmail@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016e01c54520$76d94e30$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob asked: >> What is your problem with newness? << MY problem (not only!) with "newness" is when it becomes obsessive... I know what you mean--Barry certainly is obsessive about it, isn't he. --Bob G -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shkodrov at yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 17:39:46 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050419213946.19137.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> Hmmm, sorry Bob! I can't see ANYthing that can lead me towards your conclusion... So, no, I don't think you know what I mean. Try again. (BTW, do you know what the word assume means, and why I hate assumptions in general? Just in case you don't -- in matemaku terms: ass+u+me = makes an ass out of u and me! ) (BC please if you need to!) Rosie Bob Grumman wrote: Bob asked: >> What is your problem with newness? << MY problem (not only!) with "newness" is when it becomes obsessive... I know what you mean--Barry certainly is obsessive about it, isn't he. --Bob G _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 19 18:05:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:05:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? References: <20050419213946.19137.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01aa01c5452b$da289490$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hmmm, sorry Bob! I can't see ANYthing that can lead me towards your conclusion.. I knew that, Rosie, for it would take logic to lead you to the conclusion that someone who posts as much on how disgustingly I supposedly push newness (when I only defend it against the stasguards) is obsessed with it. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 19 20:28:03 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:28:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bishop and sestina In-Reply-To: <68.5400a9c1.2f96a828@cs.com> References: <68.5400a9c1.2f96a828@cs.com> Message-ID: <4275940b2dcc0840d242db1530d68156@mac.com> On Apr 19, 2005, at 2:30 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Does anybody recall reading an article somewhere recently about > Elizabeth Bishop and the sestina?? If so, where and when? Anthony Hecht's essay "Sydney and the Sestina," collected in Melodies Unheard, devotes 5 pages to Bishop's "A Miracle for Breakfast" and "Sestina." The essay originally appeared in 2002. From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Apr 19 21:55:44 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:55:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? Blame the false and value still the true In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050419104948.029bb3e8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: Some foreign Writers, some our own despise; The Ancients only, or the Moderns prize: (Thus Wit, like Faith by each Man is apply'd To one small Sect, and All are damn'd beside.) Meanly they seek the Blessing to confine, And force that Sun but on a Part to Shine; Which not alone the Southern Wit sublimes, But ripens Spirits in cold Northern Climes; Which from the first has shone on Ages past, Enlights the present, and shall warm the last: (Tho' each may feel Increases and Decays, And see now clearer and now darker Days) Regard not then if Wit be Old or New, But blame the False, and value still the True. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 19 22:12:06 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:12:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 31 (2005) Message-ID: <6.435e8d39.2f971476@aol.com> Date:? ? Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:52:54 -0400 From:? ? William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 31 (2005) Clifford Paul Fetters | Waters of Sight Clifford Paul Fetters has poems published or forthcoming in The New York Review of Books, Poet Lore, The Seattle Review, The Atlanta Review, Paintbrush, and many other magazines. He lives in Seattle. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 19 22:53:27 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:53:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] AC on NPM19 Message-ID: <1d7.3aec7175.2f971e27@aol.com> In Anne Carson's novel-in-verse, AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF RED, Carson bases her lead character, Geryon, on a red winged monster from the writing of Greek poet Stesichoros, who was born about 650 B.C. In Stesichoros's version of Geryon's tale, Herakles kills Geryon and steals his cattle. In Carson's version, Herakles breaks Geryon's heart, and then they meet again in South America.Carson introduces us to our winged red monster as a child... *************************************** from AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF RED: A Novel in Verse I. Justice Geryon learned about justice from his brother quite early. ----- They used to go to school together. Geryon's brother was bigger and older, he walked in front sometimes broke into a run or dropped on one knee to pick up a stone. Stones make my brother happy, thought Geryon and he studied stones as he trotted along behind. So many different kinds of stones, the sober and the uncanny, lying side by side in the red dirt. To stop and imagine the life of each one! Now they were sailing through the air from a happy human arm, what a fate. Geryon hurried on. Arrived at the schoolyard. He was focusing hard on his feet and his steps. Children poured around him and the intolerable red assault of grass and the smell of grass everywhere was pulling him towards it like a strong sea. He could feel his eyes leaning out of his skull on their little connectors. He had to make it to the door. He had to not lose track of his brother. These two things. School was a long brick building on a north-south axis. South: Main Door through which all boys and girls must enter. North: Kindergarten, its large round windows gazing onto the backwoods and surrounded by a hedge of highbush cranberry. Between Main Door and Kindergarten ran a corridor. To Geryon it was a hundred thousand miles of thunder tunnels and indoor neon sky slammed open by giants. Hand in hand on the first day of school Geryon crossed this alien terrain with his mother. Then his brother performed the task day after day. But as September moved into October an unrest was growing in Geryon's brother. Geryon had always been stupid but nowadays the look in his eyes made a person feel strange. Just take me once more I'll get it this time, Geryon would say. The eyes terrible holes. Stupid, said Geryon's brother and left him. Geryon had no doubt stupid was correct. But when justice is done the world drops away. He stood on his small red shadow and thought what to do next. Main Door rose before him. Perhaps? peering hard Geryon made his way through the fires in his mind to where the map should be. In place of a map of the school corridor lay a deep glowing blank. Geryon's anger was total. The blank caught fire and burnt to baseline. Geryon ran. After that Geryon went to school alone. He did not approach Main Door at all. Justice is pure. He would make his way around the long brick sidewall, past the windows of Seventh Grade, Fourth Grade, Second Grade and Boys' to the north end of the school and position himself in the bushes outside Kindergarten. There he would stand motionless until someone inside noticed and came out to show him the way. He did not gesticulate. He did not knock on the glass. He waited. Small, red, and upright, he waited, gripping his new bookbag tight in one hand and touching a lucky penny inside his coat pocket with the other, while the first snows of winter floated down on his eyelashes and covered the branches around him and silenced all trace of the world. ************************************************** >From AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF RED by Anne Carson. Copyright ? 1998 by Anne Carson. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ************************************************** We are thrilled to announce that Anne Carson's new collection of writings, entitled DECREATION: POETRY, ESSAYS, OPERA, will be published by Knopf in September 2005. Related links: About Anne Carson: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFp0DXKYc0Wa0eGb0Eq About AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF RED: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFp0DXKYc0Wa0eGc0Er About Anne Carson's acclaimed translations of Sappho, IF NOT, WINTER: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFp0DXKYc0Wa0eGd0Es Discuss Anne Carson on the Knopf Poets Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFp0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Es ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 19 23:36:29 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:36:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bishop and sestina Message-ID: <2b.718129fb.2f97283d@cs.com> In a message dated 4/19/2005 7:28:29 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > Anthony Hecht's essay "Sydney and the Sestina," collected in Melodies > Unheard, devotes 5 pages to Bishop's "A Miracle for Breakfast" and > "Sestina." The essay originally appeared in 2002. Ah, that's where it was! Thanks, Mike! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 20 08:14:13 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:14:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noo? In-Reply-To: <01aa01c5452b$da289490$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <42660F55.24378.5471FF@localhost> > Hmmm, sorry Bob! I can't seeANYthing that can leadme towards your > conclusion.. > On 19 Apr 2005 at 18:05, Bob Grumman wrote: > I knew that, Rosie, for it would take logic to lead you to the > conclusion ...< Grumman, flailing about at anyone who comes within range. Name- calling is his vade mecum. From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Apr 20 12:30:20 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:30:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost> <08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <008701c545c6$3ef2d530$4a0c9942@Helen> I'm late reading this but I use the Norton anth in my Intro to Poetry class and they list Nash as the author of Candy is Dandy who would doubt the Norton? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach > Marcus: > > Candy is dandy ... > >> Maybe Parker did it all the time, but not there. That's Ogden Nash. > > Actually, it's *not* Ogden Nash. > > Nash used to get incredibly upset by having that couplet attributed to > him. > > Possibly because it was closer to the way he wrote than the way he wrote > himself. > > But he didn't ever write it. > > Honest. > > archie > > RESUME > > Razors pain you; > Rivers are damp; > Acids stain you; > And drugs cause cramp. > Guns aren't lawful; > Nooses give; > Gas smells awful; > You might as well live. > > Dot from the Algonquin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Apr 20 12:33:16 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:33:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin><001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009f01c544cc$4a9fc910$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a050419055078d89865@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c54513$ad0b9600$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00bc01c545c6$a7ed6000$4a0c9942@Helen> Piers Plowman? pardon the pun ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &Views" Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry >> Bob, >> >> I've asked before; I'll ask again. >> >> May we *please* see your list of groundbreaking books of poetry? > > Well, Jeff, I've mentioned a few before--plus your request came on the > heels of the one from a moron. Also, I make distinctions, so it's very > hard to name specific books. Easier to name specific groundbreaking > poets--in other words, which book of their was THE groundbreaker, I don't > really know. > > Also, the books wouldn't mean anything to you. BUT, taking off my > original assertion, which was that I thought my micro-press had published > more ground-breaking books than the academy had listed--which means more > than six, not more than 31, because I had previously stated that I thought > there were only around six books on the academy list that qualified as > groundbreaking, I'll list 7 from my 1996 catalogue: THE QUOTES OF ROATAR > STORCH by mIEKAL AND (as he calls himself); THE FLIGHT TO THE MOON by > Michael Basinski, SWELLING by John M. Bennett, M-FACTOR by Guy R. Beining, > BRAMBU DREZI by Jake Berry, WARP AND PEACE by Jonathan Brannen, and > CONFLATIO by John Byrum. > > The problems with calling these groundbreaking: each of the authors named > has done other collections that may be more importantly groundbreaking; > they are all contempraries of mine, so--while their works may seem > groundbreaking to me because I can't know all the works out there, future > generations might note that one or more of them is derivative of some work > I'm unfamiliar with. > > There's also the problem of leavel of groundbreaking. I consider Cummings > the most groundbreaking pre-contemporary American poet by at least one > level of magnitude, then Pound and Whitman. I'd rank Bennett from my list > at least with Pound and Whitman as a groundbreaker, and maybe not far > behind Cummings. > > Jake Berry may be that high, too. And Brambu Drezi IS his most > groundbreaking work. Just to give certain people at New-Poetry something > extra to choke on, I will further state that I'm SURE that my own Runaway > Spoon Book, DOING LONG DIVISION IN COLOR is an important ground-breaking > work. > > I'm sure there are several language poets I've not published who have done > ground-breakers--Clark Coolidge almost certainly, for one. Bob Grenier. > Maybe even Silliman; not, I don't think, Charles Bernstein. > > Final note. This is not ex cathedra. This is my part of an informal > discussion. I mean it, but I don't mean it the way I would if I published > it in a formal essay I posted at my website--or, one step up, as part of a > published book. > > --Bob G. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 12:52:34 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:52:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry Message-ID: http://www.news-miner.com/Stories/0,1413,113~7244~2822520,00.html Article Published: Monday, April 18, 2005 The newest occupational hazard: Poetry By Greg Hill Alexander Pushkin, that most Russian of poets, wrote in his short story, "Egyptian Nights," about how poets "are subjected to great disadvantages and unpleasantnesses" compared to normal folks, but then, he was a poet himself. Before writing it off as pure hyperbole, though, consider the findings of a study titled "The Cost of the Muse: Poets Die Young," by James Kaufman, a psychologist at California State University, San Bernardino. Kaufman surveyed nearly 2,000 significant male and female writers and found that nonfiction writers live an average of 67.9 years, novelists 66 years, playwrights 63.4 years and poets 62.2. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 12:55:59 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:55:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost><08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin> <008701c545c6$3ef2d530$4a0c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <018a01c545c9$d4a9fba0$e79c9951@Robin> From: "Helen Ruggieri" > who would doubt the Norton? Who indeed? I got this utterly and totally rong. The Freemartin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 13:05:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:05:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin><001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009f01c544cc$4a9fc910$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a050419055078d89865@mail.gmail.com><00f001c54513$ad0b9600$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00bc01c545c6$a7ed6000$4a0c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <01a001c545cb$1de08c20$e79c9951@Robin> From: "Helen Ruggieri" > Piers Plowman? A, B, C, or Zee? Da Freemartin From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 13:31:05 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:31:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poet confab in baltimore Message-ID: <1d8.3b54a319.2f97ebd9@aol.com> http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=9875 In honor of National Poetry Month, City Paper gathered a representative sample of local poets to talk about the state of poetry. Bradley Paul, a professor at Towson University and Maryland Institute College of Art, and Kathleen Hellen, creative writing professor at Coppin State College and poetry editor for the Baltimore Review, represented the more traditional academic pursuit of poetics. Femi Lawal (aka the dri Fish) and his partner in rhyme David Ross (aka Native Son) represented the new jacks on the hip-hop-infused spoken-word scene. Linda Joy Burke, writer-in-residence at the Howard County Center for African-American Culture, was a performance poet before the dri Fish and Native Son were even born. Meanwhile, Christophe Casamassima, editor of Ambit: Journal of Poetry and Poetics and proprietor of Furniture_Press, found a way to reject almost any orthodoxy offered. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Apr 20 13:46:42 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:46:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general References: Message-ID: <00aa01c545d0$ea384ec0$4a0c9942@Helen> This is lovely - do you have the original one - the one he's responding to? helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: ContemporaryPoetry News &" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general > > { I had no idea the tradition reached back as far as it does. > > And farther back yet-- > > A Response to Wang Ssu-y?an's Poem on the Moon > > Splendor of the moon shines down on quiet night, > And night is quiet, quenching fumes and dust, > Square moonbeams flood in at the door > While rounded flecks come filtered through the cracks. > On her high tower they wound the yearning wife; > In western garden sport with men of talent; > Through curtained casement gleam from pearl-sewn threads; > Before the gate shine on the verdant moss; > But in the inmost chamber where the dawn has not yet come-- > The limpid radiance--ah, how far away! > > --Shen Y?eh (441-512) > tr. Richard B. Mather > > > Hal "Poetry read out loud is never quite > so beautiful as poetry read in silence." > --Donald Hall > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Apr 20 13:57:33 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:57:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry References: <01d101c5447f$05769500$e79c9951@Robin><001001c54480$55021670$6401a8c0@MoleHQ><009f01c544cc$4a9fc910$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><731bb17a050419055078d89865@mail.gmail.com><00f001c54513$ad0b9600$42b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><00bc01c545c6$a7ed6000$4a0c9942@Helen> <01a001c545cb$1de08c20$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <00e201c545d2$6e5dfff0$4a0c9942@Helen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry > From: "Helen Ruggieri" > >> Piers Plowman? > > A, B, C, or Zee? > > Da Freemartin > What about Dee for John Deere? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 20 14:50:45 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:50:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry Message-ID: <3935783.1114023045576.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Did he include the stats for insignificant male and female writers? - Jim -----Original Message----- From: JforJames at aol.com Sent: Apr 20, 2005 9:52 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry http://www.news-miner.com/Stories/0,1413,113~7244~2822520,00.html Article Published: Monday, April 18, 2005 The newest occupational hazard: Poetry By Greg Hill Alexander Pushkin, that most Russian of poets, wrote in his short story, "Egyptian Nights," about how poets "are subjected to great disadvantages and unpleasantnesses" compared to normal folks, but then, he was a poet himself. Before writing it off as pure hyperbole, though, consider the findings of a study titled "The Cost of the Muse: Poets Die Young," by James Kaufman, a psychologist at California State University, San Bernardino. Kaufman surveyed nearly 2,000 significant male and female writers and found that nonfiction writers live an average of 67.9 years, novelists 66 years, playwrights 63.4 years and poets 62.2. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 15:06:34 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:06:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry Message-ID: <20.4340109a.2f98023a@aol.com> In a message dated 4/20/2005 12:34:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: Piers Plowman? Or Jim Daniels' the "Digger" poems. http://www.cmu.edu/cmnews/020510/020510_poetjim.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 15:24:03 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:24:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Astley against the literary elites Message-ID: <68.5419f585.2f980653@aol.com> This is rather long...but it seems there is a bit of a row on the other side of the Atlantic over how/which poetry/poets should be promoted. Can't we all just get along?.... http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/standrews/stanza/lecture.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 20 15:37:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:37:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry References: Message-ID: <013201c545e0$5991ded0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Kaufman surveyed nearly 2,000 significant male and female writers and found that nonfiction writers live an average of 67.9 years, novelists 66 years, playwrights 63.4 years and poets 62.2. Sounds about right to me. Nonfiction writers live an average of ten percent more intensely than average people, novelists twelve percent, playwrights fifteen percent, and poets soxteeny percent. This is mostly a joke, of course, but I truly believe that creativity involves changing gears, which wears a person down faster than staying in one gear the way non-creative people do, and nonfiction writers do more than other writers, and poets do less. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 20 15:46:25 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:46:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost><08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin><008701c545c6$3ef2d530$4a0c9942@Helen> <018a01c545c9$d4a9fba0$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <019001c545e1$a371ceb0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > From: "Helen Ruggieri" > >> who would doubt the Norton? > > Who indeed? > > I got this utterly and totally rong. > > > > The Freemartin Aw, come on, Robin. Get yourself a few Oxfordians to help you on this. It's clear the title-pages and authorities are wrong. That poem HAD to be written by Parker. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 20 15:59:52 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:59:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astley against the literary elites References: <68.5419f585.2f980653@aol.com> Message-ID: <01f101c545e3$849a61d0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> What amuses me about this is that it seems like a battle between the in-mediocrities and the out-mediocrities. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 20 16:01:00 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:01:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry References: <013201c545e0$5991ded0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <020001c545e3$ad4d3c60$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Dunno how I managed the "soxteeny" but it was not intentional, I swear. --Bob G. Kaufman surveyed nearly 2,000 significant male and female writers and found that nonfiction writers live an average of 67.9 years, novelists 66 years, playwrights 63.4 years and poets 62.2. Sounds about right to me. Nonfiction writers live an average of ten percent more intensely than average people, novelists twelve percent, playwrights fifteen percent, and poets soxteeny percent. This is mostly a joke, of course, but I truly believe that creativity involves changing gears, which wears a person down faster than staying in one gear the way non-creative people do, and nonfiction writers do more than other writers, and poets do less. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 20 16:02:11 2005 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:02:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry In-Reply-To: <20.4340109a.2f98023a@aol.com> References: <20.4340109a.2f98023a@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20050420150158.0bd74c30@mail.ilstu.edu> Seamus Heaney's "Digging"? At 02:06 PM 4/20/2005, you wrote: >In a message dated 4/20/2005 12:34:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >hruggier at localnet.com writes: >Piers Plowman? > >Or Jim Daniels' the "Digger" poems. >http://www.cmu.edu/cmnews/020510/020510_poetjim.html > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 16:17:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:17:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astley against the literary elites References: <68.5419f585.2f980653@aol.com> Message-ID: <020701c545e6$0766cf20$e79c9951@Robin> << This is rather long...but it seems there is a bit of a row on the other side of the Atlantic over how/which poetry/poets should be promoted. Can't we all just get along?.... http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/standrews/stanza/lecture.htm >> This has been somewhat ... violently ... discussed on the British Poetry list. (Anyone interested in this singularly parochial UK argument should check the britpo archives.) My ball-park guess is that the posts weigh-in at about 20% for Neil Astley and 80% against. For this to begin to make sense, you have to remember that Astley runs Bloodaxe. It might seem singularly odd that NA delivered this lecture at St. Andrews, if it wasn't that while St. Andrews is physically located in Scotland, of the Big Four Scottish universities, it's the only one which is spiritually English. Perhaps Prince William attended -- anyone know him well enough to ask? Hey, I actually know someone who teaches there and might have been present -- I'll copy this post to him in case. The Freemartin (St Andrews does have three rather good golf courses. Though playing the Old Course can be a right bugger when the wind is blowing the wrong way off the sea.) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 17:49:26 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:49:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry References: <013201c545e0$5991ded0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <022f01c545f2$d339cd30$e79c9951@Robin> From: Bob Grumman << Kaufman surveyed nearly 2,000 significant male and female writers and found that nonfiction writers live an average of 67.9 years, novelists 66 years, playwrights 63.4 years and poets 62.2. >> In the growing-old-bones stakes, mathematicians come out best, followed by philosphers. Anyone working with any form of fiction tends to die young, but the statistics are a little skewed here because of -- Keats Shelley Byron -- the second generation Romantic Poets. Go figure. The Freemartin. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 17:58:21 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:58:21 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost><08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin><008701c545c6$3ef2d530$4a0c9942@Helen><018a01c545c9$d4a9fba0$e79c9951@Robin> <019001c545e1$a371ceb0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <023501c545f4$12344780$e79c9951@Robin> > Aw, come on, Robin. Get yourself a few Oxfordians to help you on this. > It's clear the title-pages and authorities are wrong. That poem HAD to be > written by Parker. > > --Bob I feel Deeply Insulted to be even remotely compared to an Oxfordian. I'd like to think I was right here but of course I was totally wrong. Two things still bother me though -- the ice-pick business, and who misinformed me in the first place. :-( The Freemartin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 18:29:48 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:29:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Candy MzRed (again) References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost><08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin><008701c545c6$3ef2d530$4a0c9942@Helen><018a01c545c9$d4a9fba0$e79c9951@Robin><019001c545e1$a371ceb0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <023501c545f4$12344780$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <026201c545f8$76ecbf00$e79c9951@Robin> Candy is dandy But icepicks are quicker. Diego Rivera "The concept of narrative conceptual figurative art was not, of course, invented by him. Think of Botticelli's Mystic Nativity. However the swing of his arm added a new dimension to murals." -- Paula Rego From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 18:38:45 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:38:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astley against the literary elites References: <68.5419f585.2f980653@aol.com> <01f101c545e3$849a61d0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <028e01c545f9$b6b69740$e79c9951@Robin> << What amuses me about this is that it seems like a battle between the in-mediocrities and the out-mediocrities. --Bob G. >> Is a mediacity a middle-aged circus? The Freemartin From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 20 18:40:09 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:40:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: <00aa01c545d0$ea384ec0$4a0c9942@Helen> Message-ID: Seems not, Helen. I've had a bit of a look, but haven't come up with it. Hal { This is lovely - do you have the original one - the one he's responding to? { { helen { ----- Original Message ----- { From: "Halvard Johnson" { To: "Jeff Newberry" ; "NewPoetry: { ContemporaryPoetry News &" { Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 1:43 PM { Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general { { { > { > { I had no idea the tradition reached back as far as it does. { > { > And farther back yet-- { > { > A Response to Wang Ssu-y?an's Poem on the Moon { > { > Splendor of the moon shines down on quiet night, { > And night is quiet, quenching fumes and dust, { > Square moonbeams flood in at the door { > While rounded flecks come filtered through the cracks. { > On her high tower they wound the yearning wife; { > In western garden sport with men of talent; { > Through curtained casement gleam from pearl-sewn threads; { > Before the gate shine on the verdant moss; { > But in the inmost chamber where the dawn has not yet come-- { > The limpid radiance--ah, how far away! { > { > --Shen Y?eh (441-512) { > tr. Richard B. Mather { > { > { > Hal "Poetry read out loud is never quite { > so beautiful as poetry read in silence." { > --Donald Hall { > Halvard Johnson { > =============== { > email: halvard at earthlink.net { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ { > { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { > { > { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From shkodrov at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 19:19:39 2005 From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rosie Shkodrov) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050420231939.21385.qmail@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> "What can make us die is exactly what?s worth living for" (a friend of mine found this on an Alcoholics Anonymous discussion forum... autor unknown...) Well, this article really rubbed me wrong for some strange reason... There is an alternative research which shows that solving word puzzles is what prevents dementia. In other words -- if we manage to survive Poetry somehow, it can save our brains. How's this as a theory? Rosie "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the number of moments that leave us breathless." ~ Bob Moorehead Robin Hamilton wrote: From: Bob Grumman << Kaufman surveyed nearly 2,000 significant male and female writers and found that nonfiction writers live an average of 67.9 years, novelists 66 years, playwrights 63.4 years and poets 62.2. >> In the growing-old-bones stakes, mathematicians come out best, followed by philosphers. Anyone working with any form of fiction tends to die young, but the statistics are a little skewed here because of -- Keats Shelley Byron -- the second generation Romantic Poets. Go figure. The Freemartin. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Apr 20 19:36:38 2005 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:36:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Rest Is Silence In-Reply-To: <200504201600.j3KG060s009979@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050420163232.00c085a8@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:00 PM 4/20/2005 -0400, Bob wrote: What is your problem with newness? This is called painting the other guy into an imaginary corner. From which I break free by following Ginsberg: I hereby declare the end of the war. Not that I've lost a mite of conviction that our Bob is a relentless enemy to poetry and all reasonable discussion, but I've been officially urged to stop my needlings and allow the guy to consume us without remnant resistance to his huckstering and foul-play. So this, if you receive it, will have to stand as a final barbaric yowlp from the Aunty-Bob. However, I'll be lurking, if they allow me quietly to stay, reading my outmoded Shakespeare, my old Rilke and Sappho and Bruce Andrews among many another work deathlessly new. bye-bye, guys, and be well, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 20 19:54:21 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:54:21 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Rest Is Silence References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050420163232.00c085a8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <02d201c54604$46afff80$e79c9951@Robin> From: Barry Spacks >my old Rilke and Sappho " I am sure that I must have heard; but at this moment I do not remember from whom; perhaps from Sappho the fair, or Anacreon the wise; or, possibly, from a prose writer. Why do I say so? Why, because I perceive that my bosom is full, and that I could make another speech as good as that of Lysias, and different. Now I am certain that this is not an invention of my own, who am well aware that I know nothing, and therefore I can only infer that I have been filled through the cars, like a pitcher, from the waters of another, though I have actually forgotten in my stupidity who was my informant. " Plato, +Phaedrus+ The Freemartin From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 20 20:42:15 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:42:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/20/05 5:40 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > > { > Hal "Poetry read out loud is never quite > { > so beautiful as poetry read in silence." > { > --Donald Hall Hal, as long as you're checking out your mental attic, might you have a source for this quotation from Donald Hall? He's one of the world's bigggest hams, and has written extensively about the pleasures of reading aloud, etc., so I'd be interested in what context he wrote such a curious thing. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 20 20:58:18 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:58:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050420163232.00c085a8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: And just to bring this old/new thing nicely full circle, I'd like to direct attention to an article in *Slate* in praise of E. E. Cummings. Written by--can you possibly guess?-- none other than Billy Collins http://slate.msn.com/id/2117098/fr/rss/ -------------------------------------------------------- on 4/20/05 6:36 PM, Barry Spacks at barry.spacks at verizon.net wrote: At 12:00 PM 4/20/2005 -0400, Bob wrote: What is your problem with newness? This is called painting the other guy into an imaginary corner. >From which I break free by following Ginsberg: I hereby declare the end of the war. Not that I've lost a mite of conviction that our Bob is a relentless enemy to poetry and all reasonable discussion, but I've been officially urged to stop my needlings and allow the guy to consume us without remnant resistance to his huckstering and foul-play. So this, if you receive it, will have to stand as a final barbaric yowlp from the Aunty-Bob. However, I'll be lurking, if they allow me quietly to stay, reading my outmoded Shakespeare, my old Rilke and Sappho and Bruce Andrews among many another work deathlessly new. bye-bye, guys, and be well, Barry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 21:30:34 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:30:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Astley against the literary elites Message-ID: <15.4332817e.2f985c3a@aol.com> In a message dated 4/20/2005 4:18:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > My ball-park guess is that the posts weigh-in at about 20% for Neil Astley > and 80% against. > > For this to begin to make sense, you have to remember that Astley runs > Bloodaxe. > Robin, I read the piece...it was long, I hope it was delivered over two nights or the lecture hall was cool with comfortable seats. In general, I take Astley's side on this. It's pretty similar to territorial battles over here. The avants aren't happy with the more emotionally-charged poetries of the slam scene and suspect the I-lyric's claim to speaking authentically for a particular life. The academically-minded don't want poetry to get too far away from the trad canon and suspect ESL poetries as not being up to club standards & secret handshakes of the cognizanti. Meanwhile, if you're just trying to sell poetry books (like Astley) you can win for losing. If you have a best-seller (a Billy Collins or anthology that actually sells into 4 figures) you've suddenly brought poetry, and her pious cult, up short: How can this be? Sell out!, etc. It really doesn't matter what poems get one to start paying attention to poetry, it's just important that the initial transaction takes place: A person discovers poetry as a real, contemporary experience (not as a class assignment or ancient consolation) and begins to really read poetry with a fascination. His/her route from there is bound to take many turns, some unhappy, before finding a way to a poetry that ultimately holds that attention. Astley understands that. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 20 21:19:28 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:19:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost><08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin><008701c545c6$3ef2d530$4a0c9942@Helen><018a01c545c9$d4a9fba0$e79c9951@Robin><019001c545e1$a371ceb0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <023501c545f4$12344780$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <028801c54613$cae8bb20$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> Aw, come on, Robin. Get yourself a few Oxfordians to help you on this. >> It's clear the title-pages and authorities are wrong. That poem HAD to >> be >> written by Parker. >> >> --Bob > > I feel Deeply Insulted to be even remotely compared to an Oxfordian. Hey, much as I enjoy deeply insulting you, Robin, I wasn't comparing you to the Oxfordians, just suggesting that you could learn from them! Why back down just because of names on title pages, and the opposition of the Establishment! In fact, I was showing that you just don't have the mettle to be an Oxfordian! > I'd like to think I was right here but of course I was totally wrong. > > Two things still bother me though -- the ice-pick business, and who > misinformed me in the first place. > :-( > The Freemartin Hmm, I always think Dorothy Parker wrote that jingle, even after being corrected. Maybe now I won't. There are a couple of other items like that that I get wrong--I think because intuition overcomes rote memory. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 20 21:45:26 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:45:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings References: Message-ID: <028901c54613$cb375050$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In praise of Cummings And just to bring this old/new thing nicely full circle, I'd like to direct attention to an article in *Slate* in praise of E. E. Cummings. Written by--can you possibly guess?-- none other than Billy Collins That IS amusing, though not as amusing if the author had been Dana Gioia. But I can see why Collins would like certain aspects of Cummings--who was Very Accessible in many of his poems. So, what's Slate and how can one see the article, David? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 20 21:49:06 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:49:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings In-Reply-To: <028901c54613$cb375050$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Sorry--forgot to paste in the URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2117098/fr/rss/ on 4/20/05 8:45 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: And just to bring this old/new thing nicely full circle, I'd like to direct attention to an article in *Slate* in praise of E. E. Cummings. Written by--can you possibly guess?-- none other than Billy Collins That IS amusing, though not as amusing if the author had been Dana Gioia. But I can see why Collins would like certain aspects of Cummings--who was Very Accessible in many of his poems. So, what's Slate and how can one see the article, David? --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 21:48:33 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:48:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 4/20/2005 4:02:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, wwmorgan at ilstu.edu writes: > Seamus Heaney's "Digging"? > > or Frost's "Home Burial." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 22:09:09 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:09:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry Message-ID: <6b.43a6092d.2f986545@aol.com> Some groundbreaking in this poem, "For the Union Dead." http://www.holycross.edu/departments/english/sluria/Poem.htm Monday (Patriot's Day), I was in Boston for the marathon. Not running this year...supporting a friend. While they slogged through Framingham, past the screaming girls along the fence at Wellsley, and on to the Newton hills, the last one called Heartbreak ("It broke my heart'. --Johnny Kelly), I feel asleep on the Common, just below the St. Gauden's memorial. Waking in a spring sun without leaves to diffuse its radiance, I got up and walked up the hill to pay my respects. Then took the T to Back Bay station, and walked over to Copley Square to see the runners, numbering to 20,000, streaming, some staggering, to the finish line. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 20 23:07:50 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:07:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { > { > Hal "Poetry read out loud is never quite { > { > so beautiful as poetry read in silence." { > { > --Donald Hall { { { Hal, as long as you're checking out your mental attic, might you have a { source for this quotation from Donald Hall? He's one of the world's { bigggest hams, and has written extensively about the pleasures of reading { aloud, etc., so I'd be interested in what context he wrote such a curious { thing. Current issue of APR, David. I myself don't subscribe, but I picked up a freebie in Vancouver. Hal From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 23:15:41 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:15:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Beethoven.com Message-ID: <192.3e667484.2f9874dd@aol.com> http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/beethoven.shtml These people are in West Hartford. Maybe we should talk to them about "piggybacking" on their investment. Jim F -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 20 23:16:53 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:16:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Beethoven.com Message-ID: <96.25b963be.2f987525@aol.com> Sorry, misdirected emai... In a message dated 4/20/2005 11:15:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames writes: > > http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/beethoven.shtml > > These people are in West Hartford. Maybe we should talk to them > about "piggybacking" on their investment. > Jim F -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 21 01:35:17 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:35:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astley against the literary elites References: <15.4332817e.2f985c3a@aol.com> Message-ID: <034701c54633$e76e9e70$e79c9951@Robin> From: JforJames at aol.com << if you're just trying to sell poetry books (like Astley) you can win for losing. >> Bloodaxe which Astley runs is just slightly left-of-centre here (he publishes J.H.Prynne) while Carcanet is slightly right. Though that's probably an oversimplification, as Carcanet publish Edwin Morgan. Perhaps significantly, when Oxford University Press a few years ago pulled the plug on their poetry list, Bloodaxe picked up most of the orphaned authors. THAT caused a bit of fuss and anguish when it happened. But as Herr Grumman will appreciate, really none of the so to speak commercial lists -- Faber, Bloodaxe, Carcanet, Penguin, Polygon, et alia -- publish anything other than pretty much mainstream poets. An exception is Canongate, but there you're into the Scottish scene. I can't really speak to how things go in Wales or Ireland, north or south. A lot of the flack on British Poetry directed against Astley seemed to be coming from the small press publishers. (Confession of special interest here, as they say in the Guardian and the NYT, I'm one myself.) Unlike Jim, I found the Astley piece more predicatable and boring than anything else, and I can't see what the fuss is about. (Hm, said something like this to Bob backchannel, but it struck me like a Brit version of New Formalism.) One thing that was interesting (and if I were still working on "Internet Discussion Groups Considered in Terms of Primate Territoriality", I'd have been taking detailed notes) was that suddenly the British Poetry list split between people physically located in the UK and furriners of all shapes and stripes. Mostly people in Australia, Canada, and USAmerica seemed to be utterly baffled. Well, the exception was Maeread Byrne. It wasn't that there was one flashpoint in the talk, there were at least three -- class, region, and publishing status -- and the signals given out were deep-running. Even I, and I live on this side of the Pond, seemed to be the only one who was gobsmacked that the lecture was delivered in St. Andrews. Parochial doesn't even begin to describe this. Oh well, I notice it's now Thursday and I'd better get myself properly psyched up to get to Cambridge tomorrow and kick Kent Johnson's ankle. If I make the PPPC show, I'll post a report, but as things are going inside me head -- sorry, Kent! -- dunno if I'll make it. The Freemartin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 21 05:50:51 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:50:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <4262D45C.28515.6EA22B@localhost><08b501c54874$44a9c4b0$f09c9951@Robin><008701c545c6$3ef2d530$4a0c9942@Helen><018a01c545c9$d4a9fba0$e79c9951@Robin><019001c545e1$a371ceb0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><023501c545f4$12344780$e79c9951@Robin> <028801c54613$cae8bb20$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <039e01c54657$9b603600$e79c9951@Robin> From: "Bob Grumman" > >> Aw, come on, Robin. Get yourself a few Oxfordians to help you on this. > >> It's clear the title-pages and authorities are wrong. That poem HAD to > >> be > >> written by Parker. > >> > >> --Bob I wonder -- did Dot have any connection with Nash? Parker's style of light verse seems a little more formal than Nash's. Do I mean "formal"? More constructed. Or something. > > I feel Deeply Insulted to be even remotely compared to an Oxfordian. > > Hey, much as I enjoy deeply insulting you, Robin, I wasn't comparing you to > the Oxfordians, just suggesting that you could learn from them! Why back > down just because of names on title pages, and the opposition of the > Establishment! In fact, I was showing that you just don't have the mettle > to be an Oxfordian! Well, even I can get the point eventually -- no Oxfordian me -- and give up trying to defend the indefensible. (Although if one more person, either frontchannel or back, makes a joke about when they dated Hamlet, I might just lose my temper. And the more I think about it, the less I'm conviced that the original Globe audience would have seen +Hamlet+ as temporally sited in 1100, simply because that was the last time that Elsinore was the capital of Denmark.) > Hmm, I always think Dorothy Parker wrote that jingle, even after being > corrected. Maybe now I won't. There are a couple of other items like that > that I get wrong--I think because intuition overcomes rote memory. Are you tripping over your left foot here, Bob? Parker certainly wrote Resume, but not the Nash Candy quatrain (as I suppose I must now recognise it to be.) Just printed out the details of the CCCP conference, and train times. Still not sure I'm going to make it, but then if Kent can manage to fly over from Highland College, Nashville, surely I can at least get my bones together to catch a train. (There is no longer a direct connection from Loughborough, so I'll have to change at Leicester. But it seems a trifle wimpy to let that discourage me.) The Freemartin. Incidentally, I'm (deeply indirectly) represented -- via http://www.cccp-online.org/. Go to Links/Poetry and after clicking on CHIDESPLAY, follow your nose. (Must remember to mention that to dave bircumshaw.) One Perfect Rose A single flow'r he sent me, since we met. All tenderly his messenger he chose; Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet -- One perfect rose. I knew the language of the floweret: `My fragile leaves,' it said, `his heart enclose'. Love long has taken for his amulet One perfect rose. Why is it no one ever sent me yet One perfect limousine, do you suppose? Ah no, it's always just my luck to get One perfect rose. -- DOROTHY PARKER From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 21 06:46:35 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:46:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New Poetry] Astley against the literary elites References: <191.3dc67925.2f98d239@aol.com> Message-ID: <03b601c5465f$6459a080$e79c9951@Robin> Tim: << Robin, I can't work out who is saying what here but I have to disagree with the phrase 'singularly parochial' in the comment re the Astley issue... >"Anyone interested in this singularly parochial UK argument should check the britpo archives"< The issues brought to the surface both by Astley himself and the various responses to it, although directly concerned with the British scene, also apply to various degrees in the States. >> Someone on New Poetry (where I originally posted this) made exactly that comment to me. I don't think the general issues that Astley raises are parochial, but I *do* think that there were a lot of details in both Astley's original talk and the responses which are deeply linked to the specifics of the UK, which may not travel well. << Although the whole publishing dynamic is different there and the map of the scene is so much larger and more complicated than here, the populist polemic still plays an important part, particularly the way it, as here, aligns itself with various notions of accessibility, inclusiveness and race and gender issue-based poetry, seeing anything it dubs as too post-modern - outside of the few licensed stars e.g. Ashbery - as its ongoing enemy. >> Actually, I'm not sure about this. The more I think about it, the more that I sense that there are fewer *commercial* outlets for poetry in the UK than there are in USAmerica. Leave aside the radical institutionalisation of poetry via the MFA there that still doesn't apply here. Yet. So it's not a straight cross-Pond piece. I mean, for one thing, who (other than Prynne, who's published by Bloodaxe) is the UK equivalent of a L.A.N.G.U.A.G.E poet? Concrete/visual poetry? Sound poetry there (does it exist?) and here? The slam scene? Open mike readings? Seems to me a pretty clear case where you can't even remotely map the UK onto the US scene. (One remark that really got my back up was a reference that cropped up on the NP list to "ESL poetry". I don't think anyone on this side of the Pond would use that term. I've argued (interminably, on the phone) with dave bircumshaw about the difference between patois and creole, but that's a different issue. It's difficult to couch this without violating the verbal dress-code of the list and sliding into vulgar abuse, but ... Only in America could you find a group of academics coining the term "Ebonics" and conflating every version of non-white speech. As if a Rastafarian in London spoke the same way as second generation Pakistani girl in Glasgow. Whatever happened to the sweet particularity of things?) << There are differences though which tend to dull the sharpness of the debate there. To begin with there is a much stronger contingent of poets who have race and gender concerns writing within a broad innovative or post-modern tradition. And secondly because of the much bigger and diffuse scene in America the problems caused British innovative writers by the cramped nature of our scene, where pockets of power can have an influence far greater than their size should allow, do not have the same intransigence. >> That, and the regional scene, which doesn't play the same way in the US as the UK. So *many* issues. :-( Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 21 07:01:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:01:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings References: Message-ID: <00ae01c54661$7d08d4f0$75b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In praise of CummingsThanks, David. Pretty good article, I thought--but you won't be surprised to learn I've already posted a reply to it insulting Collins and all American poets who don't accept Cummings as the number one American poet of alltime. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 21 07:45:49 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:45:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach In-Reply-To: <023501c545f4$12344780$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <42675A2D.7963.1FBA1B@localhost> On 20 Apr 2005 at 22:58, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Two things still bother me though -- the ice-pick business, and who > misinformed me in the first place. Well, to judge by the vehemence with which you attacked the idea that Nash had written it, whoever misinformed you has to be someone whose opinion you respect enormously enough to believe without checking. How many people like that are there in the world? It's one of them. Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 21 07:48:25 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:48:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050420163232.00c085a8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <42675AC9.1270.221977@localhost> > At 12:00 PM 4/20/2005 -0400, Bob wrote: > What is your problem with newness? Barry Spacks at barry.spacks at verizon.net wrote: > This is called painting the other guy into an imaginary corner. > >From which I break free by following Ginsberg: I hereby > declare the end of the war. > Not that I've lost a mite of conviction that our Bob is a > relentless enemy to poetry and all reasonable discussion, but I've > been officially urged to stop my needlings and allow the guy to > consume us without remnant resistance to his huckstering and > foul-play. > So this, if you receive it, will have to stand as a final barbaric > yowlp from the Aunty-Bob. However, I'll be lurking, if they allow > me quietly to stay, reading my outmoded Shakespeare, my old Rilke > and Sappho and Bruce Andrews among many another work deathlessly > new. > bye-bye, guys, and be well, Yeah, that's what we want in a poetry discussion list and in intelligent moderation, isn't it: more Grumman and less Spacks? Who's making these decisions? And why? Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 21 09:11:28 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:11:28 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach References: <42675A2D.7963.1FBA1B@localhost> Message-ID: <041a01c54673$a168caf0$e79c9951@Robin> > Well, to judge by the vehemence with which you attacked the idea that > Nash had written it, whoever misinformed you has to be someone whose > opinion you respect enormously enough to believe without checking. > How many people like that are there in the world? It's one of them. > > Marcus Not that bloody many when it comes down to it -- I was trained in a hard school. I think it might have been my mother, Marcus, which just goes goes to show that I should stick to my own rules and not even believe my Grannie teaching me how to suck eggs without checking three independent sources. You're right, there was something slightly over the top about this on my part. But to be honest, before it came up on the list, it had simply never *occurred* to me to check. :-( No excuse, really, but I'm still niggled that there's something in the background here that hasn't been entirely decoded. But given that I've utterly blown my street cred in this area, best I keep my mouth shut. The Freemartin From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 21 09:34:57 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:34:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach In-Reply-To: <041a01c54673$a168caf0$e79c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <426773C1.29899.1285A9@localhost> > > Well, to judge by the vehemence with which you attacked the idea > > that Nash had written it, whoever misinformed you has to be someone > > whose opinion you respect enormously enough to believe without > > checking. How many people like that are there in the world? It's one > > of them. > ... I'm still niggled that there's something in the > background here that hasn't been entirely decoded.< I vaguely remember from the late sixties or early seventies that Nash had added to the poem: Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker. Pot is not. And perhaps it is the attributed addition that Nash denied. Marcus From hruggier at localnet.com Thu Apr 21 10:40:10 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:40:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings References: <028901c54613$cb375050$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009401c54680$05646170$5cb35040@Helen> In praise of CummingsBob, do you subscribe to Small Press Review (or get copies) I'm trying to find out if a review I sent has appeared yet - would be Feb./Mar.Apr. It's a book by Thomas Krampf Can you let me know? Thanks, helen ruggieri ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings And just to bring this old/new thing nicely full circle, I'd like to direct attention to an article in *Slate* in praise of E. E. Cummings. Written by--can you possibly guess?-- none other than Billy Collins That IS amusing, though not as amusing if the author had been Dana Gioia. But I can see why Collins would like certain aspects of Cummings--who was Very Accessible in many of his poems. So, what's Slate and how can one see the article, David? --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 21 15:22:19 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:22:19 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] saints & co. Message-ID: <00e501c546a7$70c26d00$e3ec3652@ANNY> LRB | Vol. 26 No. 5 dated 4 March 2004 | Hilary Mantel Some girls want out Hilary Mantel The Voices of Gemma Galgani: The Life and Afterlife of a Modern Saint by Rudolph Bell and Cristina Mazzoni ? Chicago, 320 pp, ?21.00 Saint Th?r?se of Lisieux by Kathryn Harrison ? Weidenfeld, 160 pp, ?14.99 The Disease of Virgins: Green Sickness, Chlorosis and the Problems of Puberty by Helen King ? Routledge, 196 pp, ?50.00 A Wonderful Little Girl: The True Story of Sarah Jacob, the Welsh Fasting Girl by Si?n Busby ? Short Books, 157 pp, ?5.99 We are living through a great era of saint-making. Under John Paul II an industrial revolution has overtaken the Vatican, an age of mass production. Saints are fast-tracked to the top, and there are beatifications by the bucket-load. It seems a shame to have all the virtues required for beatification, but not to get your full name in the Catholic Almanac Online. When the blessed are turned out at such a rate, the most they can hope for is a listing by nationality. In the current listings there are 103 Korean martyrs, 96 Vietnamese martyrs, 122 left over from the Spanish Civil War (with another batch of 45 in their wake), and a hundred-plus who have been hanging around since the French Revolution. And for the canonised, the site lists nine full saints for 2002 alone, though this is a considerable fall-back from the glory days of 1988, when more than a hundred came marching in. Under previous popes, they dawdled along, at the rate of one or two a year. Gemma Galgani became a saint in 1940, in the reign of Pius XII. It was a rapid promotion, by the standard of those days. After a miserable life, Gemma died of TB in 1903, when she was 25. She is an old-fashioned saint, Italian, passive, repressed, yet given to displays of flamboyant suffering - to public and extreme fasting and self-denial, to the exhibition of torn and bleeding flesh. Her behaviour recalled the gruesome penitential practices of her medieval foremothers and resembled that of the 'hysterics' of her own day, whose case histories promoted the careers of Charcot, Janet, Breuer and Freud. But we can't quite consign Gemma to history, to the dustbin of outmoded signs and symptoms or the waste-tip of an age of faith. When we think of young adults in the West, driven by secular demons of unknown provenance to starve and purge themselves, and to pierce and slash their flesh, we wonder uneasily if she is our sister under the skin. Gemma is far less famous than her contemporary Th?r?se of Lisieux, whose remains a short while ago went on a four-month US tour. Th?r?se also died of TB, in 1897, just short of her 25th birthday. Her illness was excruciating and prolonged. But popular piety preserved the romantic lie about the wasting consumptive and her gentle death; the sordid realities of vomiting and bedsores were suppressed, and her convent's policy of denying Th?r?se pain relief was elevated into suffering gladly embraced. Kathryn Harrison's short life of Th?r?se complements Monica Furlong's 1987 study, and is in many ways more sympathetic. Neither biographer found the saint easy to like. Despite her sobriquet of the 'Little Flower', Th?r?se was tough when her saintly interests were at stake. She wanted to enter the Carmelite order at the age of 14, and when the local convent told her to wait she took advantage of a pilgrimage to Rome to harangue Leo XIII, clinging to his knees until attendants carried her off. Gemma never got near the pope, never managed to get admitted to a convent at any age. They regarded her as too strange and too sick. 'They don't want me living,' she said, 'but they'll have me when I'm dead.' Both Gemma and Th?r?se were quite sure they were saints. Th?r?se had a fantastic imagination, suffused by fantasies of being flayed alive and boiled in oil, but the spiritual path known as the 'Little Way', expounded in her writing, is about the unheroic journey that awaits smaller souls. Th?r?se lived within the convent rule, which discouraged displays of zeal, or at least kept news of them behind the grille until the would-be saint's CV had been worked over. Rudolph Bell's book Holy Anorexia (1985) concentrates on Italian saints, and is especially rewarding for connoisseurs of the spiritually lurid. St Maria Maddalena de' Pazzi lay naked on thorns. Saint Catherine of Siena drank pus from a cancerous sore. One confessor ordered Veronica Giuliani to kneel while a novice of the order kicked her in the mouth. Another ordered her to clean the walls and floor of her cell with her tongue; when she swallowed the spiders and their webs, even he thought it was going too far. Scourges, chains and hair shirts were the must-have accessories in these women's lives. Eustochia of Messina stretched her arms on a DIY rack she had constructed. St Margaret of Cortona bought herself a razor and was narrowly dissuaded from slicing through her nostrils and upper lip. St Angela of Foligno drank water contaminated by the putrefying flesh of a leper. And what St Francesca Romana did, I find I am not able to write down. Starvation was a constant in these women's lives. It melted their flesh away, so that the beating of their hearts could be seen behind the racks of their ribs. It made them one with the poor and destitute, and united them with the image of Christ on the cross. What does this holy anorexia mean? Can we find any imaginative connection with a woman like Gemma Galgani? Like her medieval predecessors, she received the stigmata, the mark of Christ's wounds. Like them, she was beaten up by devils. Like them, she performed miracles of healing after her death. When you look at her strange life, you wonder what kind of language you can use to talk about her - through which discipline will you approach her? Born in 1878, Gemma Galgani spent almost her whole life in the Tuscan city of Lucca. She was the first daughter in her family, after four sons. Her father was a pharmacist. (This explains why she is the patron saint of Catholic pharmacists. She is also the patron of parachutists - it is hard to work out why, and whether she protects all parachutists, or only Catholic ones.) Her family were financially secure at the time of her birth, though they became poor in her late teens, after her father died. Gemma's mother gave birth to three more children, but died of TB when Gemma was seven. In losing her mother early in life, Gemma was again like Th?r?se of Lisieux. But whereas Th?r?se was brought up in an atmosphere of stifling religiosity, the Galgani family seem to have been only conventionally pious, and sometimes barely that; when the young Gemma entered one of her 'ecstasies', her sister Angelina brought her schoolfriends home to laugh at her, and later, when she manifested wounds on her head, body, hands and feet, her aunt Elisa complained about having to scrub bloodstains from the floor of her room. News of Gemma's florid and discomfiting style soon leaked out, and no convent would admit her. So her agonies couldn't be concealed behind convent walls; she remained a citizen of Lucca, with a semi-public career. After her family became almost destitute, another Lucca family took her in, and when she fell into ecstasy, instead of jeering, they took notes. The priests who surrounded her in her later years, members of the Passionist order, had little regard for her privacy once they made up their minds that she was saint material. And yet much we would like to know remains hidden; and so much we need to know is hidden in the footnotes of Rudolph Bell and Cristina Mazzoni's book. There is a certain scattiness, as well as scruple, in the authors' methods, and you wish that, for part of the book at least, they would adopt Harrison's straightforward and conventional narrative manner. Harrison recognises that the subject-matter is strange enough, that it's pointless to add to the reader's dislocation. At the centre of Bell and Mazzoni's book is Gemma's own account of her childhood and selections from her diary and her letters, but without close guidance from the authors - and we do want to know what they think - it is difficult to fill in the gaps or to make sense of Gemma's petulant and flirtatious relationship with her guardian angel. The authors do not give us a sequential account of Gemma's life and death. They have both written about Gemma before - the historian Bell in his book on Italian mystics, and Mazzoni, the literary scholar, in her book Saint Hysteria (1996), in which she tried to cast light on the relationship between the typical female manifestations of sanctity and the concept of hysteria, as it was understood at the turn of the 20th century - that is, around the time of Gemma's death. Here, Bell contributes the note on historical context with which the book begins, and writes on Gemma's 'afterlife' - the process of hagiography and canonisation. Mazzoni ends the book with a 'Saint's Alphabet', looking at Gemma's career through the eyes of feminist theology, cutting up the issues under headings. F is for Food, P is for Passion and X is for Extasy. The authors' intention seems to be that we construct the story for ourselves, rather than receive it ready-made from them. They want to explain Gemma without explaining her away. The danger is that her meaning slips between the lines. Gemma is the mistress of ellipsis, her sentences often petering out after a conjunction; her 'but' and 'because' conjoin us to nothing but guesswork. Q is for Question, and the reader has many. We can understand when Gemma says that her first memory is of praying beside her dying mother. It is the kind of first memory permitted to saints, like Th?r?se's sickly assertion that the first word she could read without help was 'heaven'. But we don't know how to understand a passing mention, in Gemma's autobiographical notes, of a household servant who 'used to take me into a closed room and undress me'. We don't know much about Gemma's education; her teachers' recollections of her were muddled and scanty. So we can't tell how much she had read; how far she was an original, and how far she was conscious of modelling herself on earlier saints. Her writing style was childlike, but it is possible that her mind was not. Like Th?r?se, she presents a model of arrested development. Like Th?r?se, she expressed herself simply, but didn't have simple thoughts. Sometimes we can trace Gemma's efforts to fit herself into a tradition. At around eight years old, she heard in a sermon of the Venerable Bartolomea Capitanio (d.1833) who combined the role of mystic with that of teacher, and who was known, Bell says, 'for absolutely never striking her students' - which is a good deal to say, in the context of Catholic education. Like her medieval predecessors, Bartolomea was keen on licking floors, but with this piquant variation of self-abasement: she licked the floor in a pattern of crosses, until her tongue bled. With such a role model to contemplate, it's maybe not surprising that Gemma's first confession, made at the age of nine, stretched over three days. What did she have to confess? Like Th?r?se, she describes herself as a little girl who would cry if she didn't get what she wanted; if she didn't cry, she didn't get. (But what she wanted, usually, was to spend more time hanging around with nuns, or to be allowed to give money to the poor.) She was, she says (displaying the streak of melodrama she and Th?r?se share), 'a bad example to my companions and a scandal to all'. She liked to stroll out in pretty dresses. One of her teachers called her 'Miss Pride'. Behind the formulaic accusation is a bereft, needy little girl. Whereas Th?r?se proudly promenaded on her father's arm, his 'little queen', Gemma pushed her father away as he tried to hug her. No one was to touch her, she said; and one thinks of the nefarious servant, in the locked room. When her one pious brother, a seminarian, died of TB, she took to wearing his clothes; and when her father died of throat cancer, she slept in the bed his corpse had vacated. There is something desperately sad about these gestures. They are quasi-suicidal, for sure, for she hoped to 'catch' their illness - she had very little investment in life - but there is also something thwarted about them, a bungled attempt at both closeness and control. Living, she won't let them touch her; when they are dead, she touches them. She tries on a man's life, a priest's life; she tries to follow her father, who had abandoned her just as her mother had done years before. Nuns at their clothing ceremonies dress as brides, so Th?r?se had her wreath of orange blossom, and veil of Alen?on lace: Gemma had a sheet with the sweat of death on it. Th?r?se had been the adored baby of her family, instructed every day by two elder sisters who proceeded her into the Carmelite convent in Lisieux. Gemma had to beg for instruction. If she got high marks in class, a teacher rewarded her by spending an hour explaining some aspect of Christ's passion and death. After one of these sessions, at the age of eight or nine, she fell into a high fever, the first of many such illnesses. Sometimes paralysed, sometimes corpse-like, sometimes bleeding and almost always starving, Gemma, in her ecstasies, talked intimately with Christ and with his mother. What did her ecstasies look like? They were not like the ecstasy of Teresa of Avila, sculpted by Bernini: that most passionate, fluid artefact, art's most convincing orgasm. Gemma lived in the era of photography, and her spiritual advisers provided her household with a camera. She looks demure, her hands clasped. Her eyes are raised to heaven, but she isn't doing anything dramatic, like rolling her pupils up into her lids. Jotted down, her words are broken, repetitive, a string of conventional pieties. Yet she returns from these states of self-hypnosis riven with supernatural pleasure and shot through with natural pain. Harrison puts it very well: 'Ecstasies are unforgettable, and they are tyrannical. Those who experience them helplessly shape their lives in order to create the possibility of another encounter with the holy.' Like all mystics, Gemma is terrified that God will turn his face away. She wants to love God, but is baffled: how do you do it? Her confessor cannot help her. Jesus says to her: 'See this cross, these thorns, this blood? They are all works of love . . . Do you want to truly love me? First learn to suffer.' What should Jesus want her to suffer? To talk about female masochism seems reductive and unhelpful. You have to look the saints in the face; say how the facts of their lives revolt and frighten you, but when you have got over being satirical and atheistical, and saying how silly it all is, the only productive way is the one the psychologist Pierre Janet recommended, early in the 20th century: first, you must respect the beliefs that underlie the phenomena. Both Gemma and Th?r?se believed suffering had an effect that was not limited in time or space. They could, just for a while, share the pain of crucifixion. They could offer up their pain to buy time out for the souls suffering in purgatory. Their suffering could be an expiation for the sins of others, it could be a restitution, a substitution. Margaret of Cortona said: 'I want to die of starvation to satiate the poor.' Behind the ecstasy is a ferocious moral drive, a purpose - and no doubt a sexual drive, too. Simone Weil believed that 'sexual energy constitutes the physiological foundation' of mystical experience. Why must this be true? Because, Weil said, 'we haven't anything else with which to love.' Such loving isn't easy. Th?r?se, dying, bleeding from her intestines and unable to keep down water, was tormented by the thought of banquets. Gemma, too, dreamed of food; would it be all right, she asked her confessor, to ask Jesus to take away her sense of taste? Permission was granted. She arranged with Jesus that she should begin to expiate, through her own suffering, all the sins committed by priests: after this bargain was struck, for 60 days she vomited whenever she tried to eat. Her guardian angel was her constant attendant and is addressed in the language of the playground and the kitchen. Sometimes he brought her coffee, and when she was weak he helped her into bed. Once he manifested in the kitchen, while the servant was making meatballs. The devil showed himself, too. He was 'a . . . little man, black, very black, little, very little . . . a tiny, tiny man . . . all covered in black hair'. He would grimace and threaten at the foot of her bed; he would jump on the bed and pummel her; when she called on Jesus, he rolled around the floor, cursing. Once he came in the form of a great black dog, and put his paws on her shoulders. Gemma had the bruises to show, and the charred paper where Satan had tried to burn her writings. In 1899, when Gemma was approaching her 21st birthday, she became paralysed and remained paralysed for some months. She was so ill she received the last rites. In prayer she appealed to the Blessed Margaret Mary Alacoque, who two centuries earlier had been confined to bed for four years by paralysis, and who had made a vow to become a nun if she was healed. The cure was instantaneous and Margaret Mary began a career of spectacular saintliness. During the long nights when Gemma prayed she was visited by a strange presence, someone who touched her with burning hands and prayed with her. After nine nights she was out of pain and able to rise from her bed. She recovered from her paralysis in February 1899. In May she went into a convent for a retreat. She followed the nuns' strict timetable for prayer and thought it 'too easy'. All the same, she wanted to stay with them, but they wouldn't let her because of her poor health. They demanded 'four medical certificates' before she could be considered. Later she would apply to several orders, and be rebuffed. She had no money for the dowry that convents demanded, but she offered herself as a lay sister - that is, one of the nuns who performs all the heavy work of the house. Nobody was keen to take her up on this offer. Shortly after her rejection by the first convent, Gemma suffered a crisis. In June 1899, on the eve of the Feast of the Sacred Heart, the marks of Christ's wounds appeared on her hands. She put on gloves and went to church as usual. She said nothing to her local confessor. She was in the habit of concealing things from him - though she knew she shouldn't. This confessor, Monsignor Volpi, the auxiliary bishop of Lucca, never had much time for Gemma. He seemed to regard her as a potential embarrassment. He didn't accept that her experiences were divine graces and ordered her to terminate her ecstasies as soon as she felt them beginning. Even after the proceedings for her canonisation had opened, Volpi's opinion was that 'she was a silly little thing.' Why such hostility? Volpi was a man deeply involved with church politics. During Gemma's short lifetime, the era of 'Catholic intransigence' was giving way to a tentative accommodation between church and state. The church in Lucca was as beleaguered as in any other city, anxious to give no ammunition to liberals and free thinkers, afraid of being mocked by anti-clerical rationalists. This fear governed the way clerics responded to Gemma. They did not like excess, or passion, or guest appearances by Old Nick himself. It was the church that was most anxious to be reductionist about Gemma's experiences, to debunk them as 'hysteria'. On the occasion of her paralysis, several doctors had been sent in. Gemma hated doctors. 'What distress . . . to have to allow myself to be undressed,' she says. Having examined her, she goes on, 'nearly all the doctors said it was spinal meningitis, only one insisted in saying it was hysteria.' Now, after Gemma had received the stigmata, Volpi brought in a local doctor who said that the wounds on her head and hands were self-inflicted. He saw marks on her skin which were easily wiped away; he saw a sewing needle on the floor by her feet. After this, Volpi told Gemma that when she saw a vision of Jesus she should regard it as diabolically inspired. She should make the horn sign to ward off evil and spit in the apparition's face. You wonder if this advice would have placated the rationalist opponents of whom the church was so afraid - would they have found the auxiliary bishop even funnier than the would-be saint? To Gemma it sometimes seemed the local clergy were doing everything they could to obstruct her passage to heaven. At every turn they sought to control and limit her experience. Her heart told her that the local priests were sometimes wrong, and yet she knew she would commit a sin if she was not obedient to the men who were set over her as spiritual authorities. They told her not to trust her imagination; to stop imagining. Yet her imagination was what connected her to Jesus. Her greatest trial was the emptiness she experienced when she didn't see him face to face. She solved this problem neatly. In one of her ecstasies she dedicated her imagination to the Virgin Mary. The Virgin Mary accepted it - which meant that from that day onwards heaven would work through Gemma's imagination. Imagination, in her view, was the essence of reality. Dreams and visions allowed her to see the true nature of events, discern motivation, penetrate disguises. The devil, satirical as always, assumed the form of Monsignor Volpi and followed her through the town. Just so she didn't miss him, he wore a mitre. Then to her rescue came a professional saint-maker, Father Germano, a member of the Passionist order - a missionary order, founded in 1741, which shared with Gemma a devotion to the emblem of the Sacred Heart. Germano boasted that he could bring even Garibaldi to 'the honours of the altar'. He talent-spotted Gemma on a brief visit to Lucca, and asked Volpi if he could take over primary responsibility for her spiritual development. He would publish her biography four years after her death and it was in his interest that during her lifetime she should feed him material by putting on paper as much as he could persuade her to confide about her life and her thoughts. In the same way, Th?r?se was ordered to write her life-story - but by her own elder sister, who was at that time superior of her convent. Th?r?se took to the business with flair and verve, her mind flooded by recollections of her childhood. Gemma, on the other hand, was not particularly co-operative. Germano asked her to write him a 'general confession'. 'All the sins of the world, I have done them all,' she replied. Yet she began to set down the scant record of her life to date. When the Passionists looked at Gemma they did not see a hysteric or a fake. Where Volpi's doctor had seen blood that could be wiped away, and that suspicious sewing needle on the floor, the Passionists saw eloquent wounds. In Julius Caesar, Antony promises to 'put a tongue in every wound of Caesar'. Father Germano undertook a similar duty for Gemma. Meanwhile, his advice to the people around her was to keep her busy - plenty of manual labour - and away from doctors. Catholic doctors could be just as bad as 'unbelievers and freemasons'. Gemma continued fainting, convulsing, vomiting blood and showing the stigmata; Germano advised her to pray for the cessation of these physical manifestations and to ask for spiritual graces instead. Spiritual graces were safer; even Germano didn't want the girl making a holy show of herself. Bell and Mazzoni demonstrate how potentially subversive Gemma's physical eloquence was. The saint first affected by the stigmata was Francis of Assisi, but it has afflicted many more women than men. It insists on the likeness of the believer's body to that of Christ. It argues that the gender of the redemptive body does not matter. It undermines the notion of a masculine God. It shows that Christ can represent women and women can represent Christ - no wonder it makes the church nervous. There is a trap the church has created for itself - it wants Jesus to have a gender but not sexuality. Under the loincloth of the crucified Christ, what would you find? Only a smooth groin of wood or plaster. His ability to love has to centre on some other organ. Throughout her life Gemma suffered from palpitations and pains in her chest. Sometimes the beating of her heart was so violent that everyone around could observe it; at autopsy it was seen (by a devout doctor) to be engorged with fresh blood. For Gemma, the heart is the place her pain is centred, the place where metaphors converge. She calls Jesus 'the powerful King of Hearts'. H?l?ne Cixous has pointed out that the heart is the place where male and female metaphors become one. Both sexes agree it is there that love is bred and contained. The heart beats faster when you see your lover, or in the sexual act. It is the place where Gemma's identity collapses into that of Jesus. She insists that her heart wants to enlarge; she uses an expression that also means, 'to take comfort'. In Saint Hysteria, Mazzoni shows how the woman mystic pushes language to do what it can, and abandons it when it reaches its limit. When telling is insufficient, she shows. This was the church's great problem: men's language, frozen in liturgy and protocol, and women's language, plastic, elastic, expressed in the heaving bosom and the arched spine - the flicky tongue of hysteria, juicy with unspoken words. The church had got itself embroiled in competing systems of metaphor, parallel discourses which it was too intellectually cowardly or inept to try to reconcile; it could only shuffle into shady alliances with the kind of science that suited it. We can see, as 'Catholic neurologists' of the time did, that Gemma's symptoms are a representational strategy. They are an art form and a highly successful one; they are also (possibly) the product of mental pain and distress turned into physical symptoms. We must say 'possibly' because we don't know enough about Gemma's illnesses - at least, Bell and Mazzoni don't give us enough detail to judge whether they were functional or organic. It seems that her doctors were more interested in ascribing meaning to her illnesses than in recording their physical features. If you want to look at Gemma's life as Freud and Josef Breuer might have looked at it (Studies in Hysteria was published in 1895) you can collude with the church in describing Gemma as a hysteric. But where does that get us? Holiness and psychopathology can coexist, and perhaps by the time Gemma was making her career you couldn't have the first without what looked like the second. The state of virginity itself was pathologised, and part of the definition of psychological health was an ability to defer to men and accept penetrative sex. Gemma thought she could be both a hysteric and a saint. She clearly understood that the diagnosis was pejorative, and regarded it as just another of the humiliations that God had lined up for her. At the heart of Bell and Mazzoni's endeavour is an understanding that a phenomenon may retain spiritual value, even after its biological and psychological roots have been uncovered. To describe the physical basis of an experience is not to negate the experience, as William James pointed out long ago. But now that neuroscience has such excellent tools for envisaging and describing the brain, we are tempted to accept descriptions of physiological processes as a complete account of experience. We then go further, and make value judgments about certain experiences, and deny their value if they don't fit a consensus; we medicate the mysterious, and in relieving suffering, take its meaning away. This won't do; there is always more suffering, and a pain is never generic, but particular and personal. We denigrate the female saints as masochists; noting that anorexic girls have contempt for their own flesh, we hospitalise them and force-feed them, taking away their liberties as if they were criminals or infants, treating them as if they have lost the right to self-determination. But we don't extend the same contempt to pub brawlers or career soldiers. Men own their bodies, but women's bodies are owned by the wider society; this observation is far from original, but perhaps bears restatement. In the 'Saint's Alphabet' which concludes the Bell-Mazzoni book, Cristina Mazzoni works hard at making Gemma's story one of the triumph of the disempowered. It is true that the reckless intensity of her self-belief, combined with her passionate lack of self-regard, make her seem very modern: a Simone Weil by other means. But very unlike Weil, she speaks in the language of the nursery. She calls her confessor 'Dad'. She calls him 'Mum' as well, if she feels like it. She calls Jesus her brother and her lover and her mother. If she obeys Jesus - deferring to him as to one who has suffered and been humiliated - it can be argued that she took on his pain not in a spirit of masochism or passivity but in a spirit of solidarity. When Gemma was canonised, the church made a weaselly accommodation with her career history, recognising the sanctity of her life but not the supernatural manifestations which surrounded her: manifestations which are so dangerously impressive to lay people, who are always looking for a sign they can understand - even an illiterate woman could have read the marks on Gemma's body. So Gemma got her reward for being downtrodden, humble, abject - not for being a living testimony to Christ's passion. Her bodily sufferings and her visions were not part of her claim to sainthood. The church recognised that Gemma had actually felt certain pains and sincerely believed that heaven had sent them; but they were consigned to the subjective realm. Within the church, pain can become productive, suffering can be put to work. But outside the church suffering loses its meaning, degenerates into physical squalor. It only has the meaning we ascribe to it; but now we lack a context in which to understand the consent to suffering that the saints gave. Anorexia nervosa is said to be a modern epidemic. If you skimmed the press in any one week it would be hard to see what is perceived as more threatening to society: the flabby, rolling mass of couch-potato kids, or their teenage sisters with thighs like gnawed chicken-bones, sunken cheeks and putrid breath. Are we threatened by flesh or its opposite? Though the temporarily thin find it easy to preach against the fat, we are much more interested by anorexia than by obesity. We all understand self-indulgence but are afraid that self-denial might be beyond us. We are fascinated by anyone who will embrace it - especially if there's no money in it for them. Bell emphasises in his introduction that what Gemma experienced was 'holy anorexia' and that it is different from anorexia nervosa. But what may strike the reader of a secular orientation is how similar they are. Starvation, as Bell shows in Holy Anorexia, was not an extension of convent practice, but a defiance of it. A fast is a controlled penitential practice. Most nuns fasted to keep the rule: the anorexics fasted to break it. Most nuns fasted to conform to their community: the starvation artists aimed to be extraordinary, exemplary. The secular slimming diet is also conformist and self-limiting. Dieting is culturally approved, associative behaviour, almost ritualistic. Restaurants adapt their menus to the Dr Atkins faddists; in a thousand church halls every week, less fashionable dieters discuss their 'points' and 'sins', their little liberties and their permitted lapses. Diets are prescriptive, like convent fasts - so much of this, so little of that. The anorexic, holy or otherwise, makes her own laws. Every normal diet ends when the dieter's will fails, or the 'target weight' is reached, at which point the dieter will celebrate, the deprived body will take its revenge, and the whole cycle will begin again - next Monday, or next Lent. Diets are meant to fail, fasts to end in a feast day. Anorexia succeeds, and ends in death more frequently than any other psychiatric disorder. Should we be comfortable in regarding it as a psychiatric disorder? Is it not a social construct? If the fashion industry were responsible for modern anorexia, it would be true that we are dealing with a very different condition from holy anorexia. But the phenomenon of starving girls predates any kind of fashion industry. In The Disease of Virgins: Green Sickness, Chlorosis and the Problems of Puberty, Helen King has amassed a huge number of references to a disease entity that was recognised from classical times to the 1920s. Greensick virgins went about looking moony, and didn't menstruate, possibly because they didn't weigh enough; in all eras, food refusal was part of the condition. The cure was a good seeing to - within marriage, of course. The snag was that men weren't keen to marry women of unproven fertility. They must show, by bleeding, how worthy they were. If green-sickness was a protest against fate, it was a horribly conflicted and fraught protest. The cloister is the logical destination for those who protest too much. But in or out of the nunnery, how much should a good girl bleed? Should she settle for the natural orifice, or bleed from novelty ones - palms, eyes? Sometimes the starving saints broke their fasts, were found at midnight raiding the convent larder. How did their communities accommodate this embarrassment? They simply said that, while Sister X snoozed celestially in her cell, the devil assumed her form and shape, tucked his tail under a habit, crept downstairs and ate all the pies. Starvation can be, must be, sustained by pride. S?an Busby's book 'A Wonderful Little Girl' introduces us to this pride in a secular context. In 1869, a 12-year-old called Sarah Jacob starved to death in a Welsh farmhouse, under the eye of doctors and nurses who were watching her around the clock. Sarah had been a sickly little girl whose parents didn't want to force food on her. She became a local phenomenon; visitors came to look at her not eating, and left useful donations. It is likely she was fed, minimally and secretly, by her siblings. But when the medical vigil began, this source of supply was cut off, and Sarah was too polite to say she needed anything - even water. Politely, proudly and quietly, she slipped away while the doctors and nurses watched. It is a grim story of social hypocrisy, deprivation and bone-headed stupidity, but it is also a shadowy story with a meaning that is difficult to penetrate. This is true of the whole phenomenon of anorexia. The anorexics are always, you feel, politely losing the game. When the fashionable and enviable shape was stick-thin, a sly duplicity was at work. One girl, considered photogenic, could earn a living from thinness; another girl, with the same famine proportions but less poster-appeal, would be a suitable case for treatment. The deciding factor seemed to be economic: could she earn a living by anorexia? If so, make her a cover girl; if not, hospitalise her. The case is now altered. The ideal body is attainable only by plastic surgery. The ideal woman has the earning powers of a CEO, breasts like an inflatable doll, no hips at all and the tidy, hairless labia of an unviolated six-year-old. The world gets harder and harder. There's no pleasing it. No wonder some girls want out. The young women who survive anorexia do not like themselves. Their memoirs burn with self-hatred, expressed in terms which often seem anachronistic. In My Hungry Hell, Kate Chisholm says: 'Pride is the besetting sin of the anorexic: pride in her self-denial, in her thin body, in her superiority.'* Survivors are reluctant to admit that anorexia, which in the end leads to invalidity and death, is along the way a path of pleasure and power: it is the power that confers pleasure, however freakish and fragile the gratification may seem. When you are isolated, back to the social wall, control over your own ingestion and excretion is all you have left; this is why professional torturers make sure to remove it. Why would women feel so hounded, when feminism is a done deal? Think about it. What are the choices on offer? First, the promise of equality was extended to educated professional women. You can be like men, occupy the same positions, earn the same salary. Then equal opportunities were extended to uneducated girls; you, too, can get drunk, and fight in the streets on pay-night. You'll fit in childcare somehow, around the practice of constant self-assertion - a practice now as obligatory as self-abasement used to be. Self-assertion means acting; it means denying your nature; it means embracing superficiality and coarseness. Girls may not be girls; they may be gross and sexually primed, like adolescent boys. Not every young woman wants to take the world up on this offer. It is possible that there is a certain personality structure which has always been problematical for women, and which is as difficult to live with today as it ever was - a type which is withdrawn, thoughtful, reserved, self-contained and judgmental, naturally more cerebral than emotional. Adolescence is difficult for such people; peer-pressure and hormonal disruption whips them into forced emotion, sends them spinning like that Victorian toy called a whipping-top. Suddenly self-containment becomes difficult. Emotions become labile. Why do some children cut themselves, stud themselves and arrange for bodily modifications that turn passers-by sick in the streets, while others merely dwindle quietly? Is it a class issue? Is it to do with educational level? The subject is complex and intractable. The cutters have chosen a form of display that even the great secular hysterics of the 19th century would have found unsubtle, while the starvers defy all the ingenuities of modern medicine; the bulimics borrow the tricks of both, and are perhaps the true heirs of those spider-swallowers. Anorexia itself seems like mad behaviour, but I don't think it is madness. It is a way of shrinking back, of reserving, preserving the self, fighting free of sexual and emotional entanglements. It says, like Christ, 'noli me tangere.' Touch me not and take yourself off. For a year or two, it may be a valid strategy; to be greensick, to be out of the game; to die just a little; to nourish the inner being while starving the outer being; to buy time. Most anorexics do recover, after all: somehow, and despite the violence visited on them in the name of therapy, the physical and psychological invasion, they recover, fatten, compromise. Anorexia can be an accommodation, a strategy for survival. In Holy Anorexia, Bell remarks how often, once recovered, notorious starvers became leaders of their communities, serene young mothers superior who were noticeably wise and moderate in setting the rules for their own convents. Such career opportunities are not available these days. I don't think holy anorexia is very different from secular anorexia. I wish it were. It ought to be possible to live and thrive, without conforming, complying, giving in, but also without imitating a man, even Christ: it should be possible to live without constant falsification. It should be possible for a woman to live - without feeling that she is starving on the doorstep of plenty - as light, remarkable, strong and free. As an evolved fish: in her element, and without scales. Footnotes * Short Books, 152 pp., ?5.99, September 2002, 1 904095 23 2. Hilary Mantel's memoir Giving Up the Ghost and a book of stories, Learning to Talk, came out last year. She is working on a novel to be called Beyond Black. copyright ? LRB Ltd, 1997-2004 21 April 2005 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 21 16:30:08 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:30:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings References: <028901c54613$cb375050$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009401c54680$05646170$5cb35040@Helen> Message-ID: <01ae01c546b0$ea9503f0$75b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> In praise of CummingsBob, do you subscribe to Small Press Review (or get copies) I'm trying to find out if a review I sent has appeared yet - would be Feb./Mar.Apr. It's a book by Thomas Krampf Can you let me know? Thanks, helen ruggieri I do get it, Helen, and was sure I'd seen something by you in it, but couldn't turn up anything in the last three issues, which were for Nov/Dec, Jan/Feb and March/April. Guess I was thinking of something you may have done for American Book Review. Editor Len sometimes takes a LONG time to publish a review. So maybe next issue or sometimes in 2007. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Thu Apr 21 15:01:20 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:01:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under Message-ID: <003201c546a4$83dbfb20$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> >From the NY Times: W. H. Auden may have lamented that "poetry makes nothing happen," but that has not kept poets themselves - and their enthusiasts - from using the Internet to make trouble when they get riled up. This week the poetry world is atwitter over the closing down of an Internet site that for the last year dedicated itself to exposing what it calls fraud among the small circle of poetry contests that frequently offer publishing contracts as prizes. Alan Cordle, a research librarian who lives in Portland, Ore., has managed the Web site, www.foetry.com, anonymously since its inception a little more a year ago. He called his site the "American poetry watchdog" and aimed to expose the national poetry contests that he said "are often large-scale fraud operations" in which judges select their friends and students as winners. But Mr. Cordle's identity, which he says he protected to avoid recriminations against those who joined in his fight, was revealed earlier this month. The unmasking was performed by an anti-Foetry Web site that is also run anonymously and which used some of Mr. Cordle's own aggressive tactics - he once used a state open-records law to unlock details about participants in a contest sponsored by a state university press - to remove his cloak of mystery. In an interview yesterday, Mr. Cordle said that while the unveiling of his identity was the immediate cause of his decision to close the Foetry site, he had been planning to do so "for about a month" because of frequent requests from his wife. She, it turns out, is a poet - Kathleen Halme, who in September 1994 won a poetry contest managed by the University of Georgia Press, the Contemporary Poetry Series, one of the contests that Mr. Cordle has railed against as corrupt. Mr. Cordle's identity was revealed by a blog called whoisfoetry (whoisfoetry.blogspot.com). It had recently solicited tips about the identity of the Foetry operator and of participants in its discussion forum, which over the last year drew hundreds of poetry fanatics as participants - most of them participating using pseudonyms. After several tries, the blog managed to wrest the identity of the Foetry site's registrant from the company that manages Internet domain names. For the poetry world, which makes headlines about as often as philosophers' guilds and knitting circles, the dust-up has led to bitter recriminations and charges of slander or worse. One of the poets and contest judges who has been attacked on the Foetry site, Jorie Graham, a professor at Harvard University, said in a telephone interview yesterday that the claims on Foetry were untrue as well as "vitriolic and very painful" and took unfair aim "at the people who have worked to try to help young poets in this country." She is not the only opponent to speak publicly about Foetry; another is Janet Holmes, an associate professor of English at Boise State University and the director of Ahsahta Press, which oversees a poetry prize that has come under fire on Foetry. Writing on her Web site, www.humanophone.com, she said she was disgusted by the "lies and innuendoes" on Mr. Cordle's site. "He should be ashamed of himself for what he's done, not just because he's been caught doing it," she wrote. Mr. Cordle said he had maintained the site's domain registration and that he might restart the site at some point in the future if he can find someone to take over monitoring of the discussion forums. Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Apr 21 20:20:02 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:20:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under Message-ID: <200504212258.j3LMwCcU348284@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> You know, this drama with the wife, reminds me a little of that case that athiest man (whose name I forget) brought to the Supreme Court (unsuccessfully) claiming the "under god" in the pledge of allegiance denied his freedom of religion. Turns out in the custody battle over his child, his wife wanted to raise her "under god" while he didn't. While a similar domestic drama may not have played a part in the Foetry thing, it's hard not to want to piece something together from the scant facts we have.... C ---------- From: "The Old Mole" To: Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under Date: Thu, Apr 21, 2005, 11:01 AM >From the NY Times: W. H. Auden may have lamented that "poetry makes nothing happen," but that has not kept poets themselves - and their enthusiasts - from using the Internet to make trouble when they get riled up. This week the poetry world is atwitter over the closing down of an Internet site that for the last year dedicated itself to exposing what it calls fraud among the small circle of poetry contests that frequently offer publishing contracts as prizes. Alan Cordle, a research librarian who lives in Portland, Ore., has managed the Web site, www.foetry.com , anonymously since its inception a little more a year ago. He called his site the "American poetry watchdog" and aimed to expose the national poetry contests that he said "are often large-scale fraud operations" in which judges select their friends and students as winners. But Mr. Cordle's identity, which he says he protected to avoid recriminations against those who joined in his fight, was revealed earlier this month. The unmasking was performed by an anti-Foetry Web site that is also run anonymously and which used some of Mr. Cordle's own aggressive tactics - he once used a state open-records law to unlock details about participants in a contest sponsored by a state university press - to remove his cloak of mystery. In an interview yesterday, Mr. Cordle said that while the unveiling of his identity was the immediate cause of his decision to close the Foetry site, he had been planning to do so "for about a month" because of frequent requests from his wife. She, it turns out, is a poet - Kathleen Halme, who in September 1994 won a poetry contest managed by the University of Georgia Press, the Contemporary Poetry Series, one of the contests that Mr. Cordle has railed against as corrupt. Mr. Cordle's identity was revealed by a blog called whoisfoetry (whoisfoetry.blogspot.com ). It had recently solicited tips about the identity of the Foetry operator and of participants in its discussion forum, which over the last year drew hundreds of poetry fanatics as participants - most of them participating using pseudonyms. After several tries, the blog managed to wrest the identity of the Foetry site's registrant from the company that manages Internet domain names. For the poetry world, which makes headlines about as often as philosophers' guilds and knitting circles, the dust-up has led to bitter recriminations and charges of slander or worse. One of the poets and contest judges who has been attacked on the Foetry site, Jorie Graham, a professor at Harvard University, said in a telephone interview yesterday that the claims on Foetry were untrue as well as "vitriolic and very painful" and took unfair aim "at the people who have worked to try to help young poets in this country." She is not the only opponent to speak publicly about Foetry; another is Janet Holmes, an associate professor of English at Boise State University and the director of Ahsahta Press, which oversees a poetry prize that has come under fire on Foetry. Writing on her Web site, www.humanophone.com , she said she was disgusted by the "lies and innuendoes" on Mr. Cordle's site. "He should be ashamed of himself for what he's done, not just because he's been caught doing it," she wrote. Mr. Cordle said he had maintained the site's domain registration and that he might restart the site at some point in the future if he can find someone to take over monitoring of the discussion forums. Tad Richards www.opus40.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lesrho at fullnet.net Thu Apr 21 15:33:15 2005 From: lesrho at fullnet.net (LesRho) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:33:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Posting References: <200504211600.j3LG030s020408@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <001b01c546a9$15c2c330$2406e2d8@retiredud69srz> Poetry doesn't have to rhyme as often thought, Enjoy a Haiku After spending a year in Iwakuni, Japan and another year in Okinawa (Now Japan) I was fortunate to enjoy some of the culture: The Big Bhuda at Kamakura, The Imperial Palace in Tokyo, The ruins in Hiroshima, The Teahouse of the August Moon at Naha, Iei Shima Island where Journalist Ernie Pyle is buried (also the death site of 15,000 Japanese military people who committed Hari Kari and dropped off the cliff at the end of the airstrip the allies were trying to capture), and many other sights and experiences too numerous to mention here. Now that I have followed a friend's advice and found what HaiKu was, I feel that I can more properly recall those experiences and others without the laborious wordiness of pentameters, iambicnous, etc. To write HaiKu just use 5 syllabels in the first and third lines and seven syllabels in the second line. To have not sought out out and read any of the volumes of this highly acclaimed poetry while I was there is a shame. Oh; the folly of youth with the blindness of not trying to see! Try reading some Haiku on your own; there's no excuse with the speedy availability of the Internet. Just Pick a topic One you'd like others to know Write all about it My appologies to any experienced HaiKu Poets; it does get better as you get better. Les Easley SFO A Franciscan Poet ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 10:00 AM Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 33 > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. In praise of Cummings (David Graham) > 2. Re: Groundbreaking Poetry (JforJames at aol.com) > 3. Re: Groundbreaking Poetry (JforJames at aol.com) > 4. RE: Response Poems in general (Halvard Johnson) > 5. Beethoven.com (JforJames at aol.com) > 6. Re: Beethoven.com (JforJames at aol.com) > 7. Re: Astley against the literary elites (Robin Hamilton) > 8. Re: Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach (Robin Hamilton) > 9. Re: [New Poetry] Astley against the literary elites > (Robin Hamilton) > 10. Re: In praise of Cummings (Bob Grumman) > 11. Re: Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach (Marcus Bales) > 12. Re: In praise of Cummings (Marcus Bales) > 13. Re: Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach (Robin Hamilton) > 14. Re: Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach (Marcus Bales) > 15. Re: In praise of Cummings (Helen Ruggieri) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:49:06 -0500 > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Sorry--forgot to paste in the URL: > > http://slate.msn.com/id/2117098/fr/rss/ > > > on 4/20/05 8:45 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > > > > And just to bring this old/new thing nicely full circle, I'd like to direct > attention to an article in *Slate* in praise of E. E. Cummings. > > Written by--can you possibly guess?-- none other than Billy Collins > > That IS amusing, though not as amusing if the author had been Dana Gioia. > But I can see why Collins would like certain aspects of Cummings--who was > Very Accessible in many of his poems. So, what's Slate and how can one see > the article, David? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050420/032e53ed/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:48:33 EDT > From: JforJames at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > In a message dated 4/20/2005 4:02:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > wwmorgan at ilstu.edu writes: > > > Seamus Heaney's "Digging"? > > > > > > or Frost's "Home Burial." > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050420/6110fcd4/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:09:09 EDT > From: JforJames at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <6b.43a6092d.2f986545 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Some groundbreaking in this poem, "For the Union Dead." > > http://www.holycross.edu/departments/english/sluria/Poem.htm > > Monday (Patriot's Day), I was in Boston for the marathon. Not > running this year...supporting a friend. While they slogged through > Framingham, past the screaming girls along the fence at Wellsley, > and on to the Newton hills, the last one called Heartbreak > ("It broke my heart'. --Johnny Kelly), I feel asleep on the Common, > just below the St. Gauden's memorial. Waking in a spring sun > without leaves to diffuse its radiance, I got up and walked > up the hill to pay my respects. Then took the T to Back Bay station, > and walked over to Copley Square to see the runners, numbering > to 20,000, streaming, some staggering, to the finish line. > Finnegan > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050420/2bf04c8e/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:07:50 -0400 > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Response Poems in general > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > { > { > Hal "Poetry read out loud is never quite > { > { > so beautiful as poetry read in silence." > { > { > --Donald Hall > { > { > { Hal, as long as you're checking out your mental attic, might you have a > { source for this quotation from Donald Hall? He's one of the world's > { bigggest hams, and has written extensively about the pleasures of reading > { aloud, etc., so I'd be interested in what context he wrote such a curious > { thing. > > Current issue of APR, David. I myself don't subscribe, but I picked up > a freebie in Vancouver. > > Hal > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:15:41 EDT > From: JforJames at aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Beethoven.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <192.3e667484.2f9874dd at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/beethoven.shtml > > These people are in West Hartford. Maybe we should talk to them > about "piggybacking" on their investment. > Jim F > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050420/86d5700c/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:16:53 EDT > From: JforJames at aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Beethoven.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <96.25b963be.2f987525 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Sorry, misdirected emai... > In a message dated 4/20/2005 11:15:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames > writes: > > > > > http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/beethoven.shtml > > > > These people are in West Hartford. Maybe we should talk to them > > about "piggybacking" on their investment. > > Jim F > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050420/6ca032e5/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:35:17 +0100 > From: "Robin Hamilton" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Astley against the literary elites > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <034701c54633$e76e9e70$e79c9951 at Robin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > From: JforJames at aol.com > > << > if you're just trying to sell poetry books (like Astley) you can win for > losing. > >> > > Bloodaxe which Astley runs is just slightly left-of-centre here (he > publishes J.H.Prynne) while Carcanet is slightly right. Though that's > probably an oversimplification, as Carcanet publish Edwin Morgan. > > Perhaps significantly, when Oxford University Press a few years ago pulled > the plug on their poetry list, Bloodaxe picked up most of the orphaned > authors. > > THAT caused a bit of fuss and anguish when it happened. > > But as Herr Grumman will appreciate, really none of the so to speak > commercial lists -- Faber, Bloodaxe, Carcanet, Penguin, Polygon, et alia -- > publish anything other than pretty much mainstream poets. > > An exception is Canongate, but there you're into the Scottish scene. I > can't really speak to how things go in Wales or Ireland, north or south. > > A lot of the flack on British Poetry directed against Astley seemed to be > coming from the small press publishers. (Confession of special interest > here, as they say in the Guardian and the NYT, I'm one myself.) > > Unlike Jim, I found the Astley piece more predicatable and boring than > anything else, and I can't see what the fuss is about. > > (Hm, said something like this to Bob backchannel, but it struck me like a > Brit version of New Formalism.) > > One thing that was interesting (and if I were still working on "Internet > Discussion Groups Considered in Terms of Primate Territoriality", I'd have > been taking detailed notes) was that suddenly the British Poetry list split > between people physically located in the UK and furriners of all shapes and > stripes. Mostly people in Australia, Canada, and USAmerica seemed to be > utterly baffled. > > Well, the exception was Maeread Byrne. > > It wasn't that there was one flashpoint in the talk, there were at least > three -- class, region, and publishing status -- and the signals given out > were deep-running. Even I, and I live on this side of the Pond, seemed to > be the only one who was gobsmacked that the lecture was delivered in St. > Andrews. > > Parochial doesn't even begin to describe this. > > Oh well, I notice it's now Thursday and I'd better get myself properly > psyched up to get to Cambridge tomorrow and kick Kent Johnson's ankle. > > If I make the PPPC show, I'll post a report, but as things are going inside > me head -- sorry, Kent! -- dunno if I'll make it. > > The Freemartin > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:50:51 +0100 > From: "Robin Hamilton" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <039e01c54657$9b603600$e79c9951 at Robin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > From: "Bob Grumman" > > > >> Aw, come on, Robin. Get yourself a few Oxfordians to help you on this. > > >> It's clear the title-pages and authorities are wrong. That poem HAD to > > >> be > > >> written by Parker. > > >> > > >> --Bob > > I wonder -- did Dot have any connection with Nash? Parker's style of light > verse seems a little more formal than Nash's. > > Do I mean "formal"? More constructed. Or something. > > > > I feel Deeply Insulted to be even remotely compared to an Oxfordian. > > > > Hey, much as I enjoy deeply insulting you, Robin, I wasn't comparing you > to > > the Oxfordians, just suggesting that you could learn from them! Why back > > down just because of names on title pages, and the opposition of the > > Establishment! In fact, I was showing that you just don't have the mettle > > to be an Oxfordian! > > Well, even I can get the point eventually -- no Oxfordian me -- and give up > trying to defend the indefensible. > > (Although if one more person, either frontchannel or back, makes a joke > about when they dated Hamlet, I might just lose my temper. And the more I > think about it, the less I'm conviced that the original Globe audience would > have seen +Hamlet+ as temporally sited in 1100, simply because that was the > last time that Elsinore was the capital of Denmark.) > > > Hmm, I always think Dorothy Parker wrote that jingle, even after being > > corrected. Maybe now I won't. There are a couple of other items like > that > > that I get wrong--I think because intuition overcomes rote memory. > > Are you tripping over your left foot here, Bob? Parker certainly wrote > Resume, but not the Nash Candy quatrain (as I suppose I must now recognise > it > to be.) > > Just printed out the details of the CCCP conference, and train times. Still > not sure I'm going to make it, but then if Kent can manage to fly over from > Highland College, Nashville, surely I can at least get my bones together to > catch a train. (There is no longer a direct connection from Loughborough, > so I'll have to change at Leicester. But it seems a trifle wimpy to let > that discourage me.) > > The Freemartin. > > Incidentally, I'm (deeply indirectly) represented -- via > http://www.cccp-online.org/. Go to Links/Poetry and after clicking on > CHIDESPLAY, follow your nose. (Must remember to mention that to dave > bircumshaw.) > > One Perfect Rose > > A single flow'r he sent me, since we met. > All tenderly his messenger he chose; > Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet -- > One perfect rose. > > I knew the language of the floweret: > `My fragile leaves,' it said, `his heart enclose'. > Love long has taken for his amulet > One perfect rose. > > Why is it no one ever sent me yet > One perfect limousine, do you suppose? > Ah no, it's always just my luck to get > One perfect rose. > > -- DOROTHY PARKER > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:46:35 +0100 > From: "Robin Hamilton" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New Poetry] Astley against the literary > elites > To: > Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <03b601c5465f$6459a080$e79c9951 at Robin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Tim: > > << > Robin, I can't work out who is saying what here but I have to disagree with > the phrase 'singularly parochial' in the comment re the Astley issue... > > >"Anyone interested in this singularly parochial UK argument should check > the > britpo archives"< > > The issues brought to the surface both by Astley himself and the various > responses to it, although directly concerned with the British scene, also > apply to various degrees in the States. > >> > > Someone on New Poetry (where I originally posted this) made exactly that > comment to me. > > I don't think the general issues that Astley raises are parochial, but I > *do* think that there were a lot of details in both Astley's original talk > and the responses which are deeply linked to the specifics of the UK, which > may not travel well. > > << > Although the whole publishing dynamic is different there and the map of the > scene is so much larger and more complicated than here, the populist polemic > still plays an important part, particularly the way it, as here, aligns > itself with various notions of accessibility, inclusiveness and race and > gender issue-based poetry, seeing anything it dubs as too post-modern - > outside of the few licensed stars e.g. Ashbery - as its ongoing enemy. > >> > > Actually, I'm not sure about this. The more I think about it, the more that > I sense that there are fewer *commercial* outlets for poetry in the UK than > there are in USAmerica. Leave aside the radical institutionalisation of > poetry via the MFA there that still doesn't apply here. Yet. So it's not a > straight cross-Pond piece. > > I mean, for one thing, who (other than Prynne, who's published by Bloodaxe) > is the UK equivalent of a L.A.N.G.U.A.G.E poet? Concrete/visual poetry? > Sound poetry there (does it exist?) and here? The slam scene? Open mike > readings? Seems to me a pretty clear case where you can't even remotely map > the UK onto the US scene. > > (One remark that really got my back up was a reference that cropped up on > the NP list to "ESL poetry". I don't think anyone on this side of the Pond > would use that term. I've argued (interminably, on the phone) with dave > bircumshaw about the difference between patois and creole, but that's a > different issue. > > It's difficult to couch this without violating the verbal dress-code of the > list and sliding into vulgar abuse, but ... Only in America could you find > a group of academics coining the term "Ebonics" and conflating every version > of non-white speech. As if a Rastafarian in London spoke the same way as > second generation Pakistani girl in Glasgow. Whatever happened to the sweet > particularity of things?) > > << > There are differences though which tend to dull the sharpness of the debate > there. To begin with there is a much stronger contingent of poets who have > race and gender concerns writing within a broad innovative or post-modern > tradition. And secondly because of the much bigger and diffuse scene in > America the problems caused British innovative writers by the cramped nature > of our scene, where pockets of power can have an influence far greater than > their size should allow, do not have the same intransigence. > >> > > That, and the regional scene, which doesn't play the same way in the US as > the UK. > > So *many* issues. > > :-( > > Robin > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:01:36 -0400 > From: "Bob Grumman" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <00ae01c54661$7d08d4f0$75b831d0 at youro0kwkw9jwc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > In praise of CummingsThanks, David. Pretty good article, I thought--but you won't be surprised to learn I've already posted a reply to it insulting Collins and all American poets who don't accept Cummings as the number one American poet of alltime. > > --Bob > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050421/b97d7aa6/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:45:49 -0400 > From: "Marcus Bales" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach > To: "Robin Hamilton" , "NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <42675A2D.7963.1FBA1B at localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 20 Apr 2005 at 22:58, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Two things still bother me though -- the ice-pick business, and who > > misinformed me in the first place. > > Well, to judge by the vehemence with which you attacked the idea that > Nash had written it, whoever misinformed you has to be someone whose > opinion you respect enormously enough to believe without checking. > How many people like that are there in the world? It's one of them. > > Marcus > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:48:25 -0400 > From: "Marcus Bales" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings > To: David Graham , "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry > News & Views" > Message-ID: <42675AC9.1270.221977 at localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > At 12:00 PM 4/20/2005 -0400, Bob wrote: > > What is your problem with newness? > > Barry Spacks at barry.spacks at verizon.net wrote: > > This is called painting the other guy into an imaginary corner. > > >From which I break free by following Ginsberg: I hereby > > declare the end of the war. > > Not that I've lost a mite of conviction that our Bob is a > > relentless enemy to poetry and all reasonable discussion, but I've > > been officially urged to stop my needlings and allow the guy to > > consume us without remnant resistance to his huckstering and > > foul-play. > > So this, if you receive it, will have to stand as a final barbaric > > yowlp from the Aunty-Bob. However, I'll be lurking, if they allow > > me quietly to stay, reading my outmoded Shakespeare, my old Rilke > > and Sappho and Bruce Andrews among many another work deathlessly > > new. > > bye-bye, guys, and be well, > > Yeah, that's what we want in a poetry discussion list and in > intelligent moderation, isn't it: more Grumman and less Spacks? Who's > making these decisions? And why? > > Marcus > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:11:28 +0100 > From: "Robin Hamilton" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <041a01c54673$a168caf0$e79c9951 at Robin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Well, to judge by the vehemence with which you attacked the idea that > > Nash had written it, whoever misinformed you has to be someone whose > > opinion you respect enormously enough to believe without checking. > > How many people like that are there in the world? It's one of them. > > > > Marcus > > Not that bloody many when it comes down to it -- I was trained in a hard > school. > > I think it might have been my mother, Marcus, which just goes goes to show > that I should stick to my own rules and not even believe my Grannie teaching > me how to suck eggs without checking three independent sources. > > You're right, there was something slightly over the top about this on my > part. But to be honest, before it came up on the list, it had simply never > *occurred* to me to check. > > :-( > > No excuse, really, but I'm still niggled that there's something in the > background here that hasn't been entirely decoded. But given that I've > utterly blown my street cred in this area, best I keep my mouth shut. > > The Freemartin > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:34:57 -0400 > From: "Marcus Bales" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: The Bitch and the Beach > To: "Robin Hamilton" , "NewPoetry: > Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > Message-ID: <426773C1.29899.1285A9 at localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > Well, to judge by the vehemence with which you attacked the idea > > > that Nash had written it, whoever misinformed you has to be someone > > > whose opinion you respect enormously enough to believe without > > > checking. How many people like that are there in the world? It's one > > > of them. > > > ... I'm still niggled that there's something in the > > background here that hasn't been entirely decoded.< > > I vaguely remember from the late sixties or early seventies that Nash > had added to the poem: > > Candy > is dandy > but liquor > is quicker. > Pot > is not. > > And perhaps it is the attributed addition that Nash denied. > > Marcus > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:40:10 -0400 > From: "Helen Ruggieri" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Message-ID: <009401c54680$05646170$5cb35040 at Helen> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > In praise of CummingsBob, do you subscribe to Small Press Review (or get copies) I'm trying to find out if a review I sent has appeared yet - would be > Feb./Mar.Apr. > > It's a book by Thomas Krampf > > Can you let me know? > > Thanks, > > helen ruggieri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 9:45 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In praise of Cummings > > > > > And just to bring this old/new thing nicely full circle, I'd like to direct attention to an article in *Slate* in praise of E. E. Cummings. > > Written by--can you possibly guess?-- none other than Billy Collins > > > That IS amusing, though not as amusing if the author had been Dana Gioia. But I can see why Collins would like certain aspects of Cummings--who was Very Accessible in many of his poems. So, what's Slate and how can one see the article, David? > > --Bob G. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20050421/b5c9c100/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 10, Issue 33 > ****************************************** > From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 21 22:33:00 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:33:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] On the 21st day of our NPM: Irving Feldman's "The Secret Work" Message-ID: <103.5fea1540.2f99bc5c@aol.com> Today's poem is by Irving Feldman, from his COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004.Information about voting for the third Poem-of-the-Week and entering the Poetry in the World contest follows. *************************************** The Secret Work Nadezhda Mandelstam has told the story. In Strunino, after her husband's arrest, working the night shift in a textile factory, she runs, sleepless and distraught, among the machines, chanting his forbidden poems to herself to preserve them. And so for twenty-five years in Perm, in Moscow, in Voronezh, Leningrad, Ulyanovsk, Samatikha... A man with chills hugs himself, rejoicing in his fever. She, the frozen century's daugher, rejoices in her secret, hugs to herself the prophet hiding in her breath, the infant she keeps close, safe, swaddled, speaking. ?????????????She covers over, makes him smaller, safer, no bigger than a seed, a spark?search where they will, they will not find him here, yet here he is, a little voice praying, an enormous voice prophesying, this live coal held on her tongue burning behind clenched teeth. To herself, in herself, over and over, what must not be said aloud, not written down, not whispered in corners or left to be smelled out clotting at the ends of broken phrases ...the poems of Mandelstam going out in Siberia's night. ?? ? ? ? ? ? ************************************************** >From COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004 by Irving Feldman. Copyright ? 2004 by Irving Feldman. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. ************************************************** Related links: About COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFr0DXKYc0Wa0eGi0Ez About Irving Feldman: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFr0DXKYc0Wa0ago0EZ Nadezhda Mandelstam's HOPE AGAINST HOPE: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFr0DXKYc0Wa0eGj0E1 Discuss "The Secret Work" on the Knopf Poets Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jjFr0DXKYc0Wa0dyo0Eu ************************************************** POEM-OF-THE-WEEK: Tomorrow is Friday, time to vote for your favorite Poem-of- the-Week (April 15-21) on the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://www.knopfpoetry.com/forum/ The first five people to post their selection and reasons on Friday, April 22, will receive a signed first edition of Camille Paglia's bestselling BREAK, BLOW, BURN. You can review the week's poems here: http://www.knopfpoetry.com/poemaday/ The Poetry in the World Contest: For the remainder of National Poetry Month, we invite you to send us photos and descriptions of how you've seen poetry celebrated out in the real world. If you are a bookseller, send in images of your in-store display. If you admire the display in your favorite bookstore, send us photos of what they did. Teachers, show us a poetry bulletin board you created. Find poetry broadsides hanging on the wall in a library. Have you found a new poetry Web site that you love? Send us the link. If you hang our poems from string in trees outside your house, make poetry kites, or serve your meals out of poetry paper plates, let us know. Surprise us. Whatever you find or choose to do, let us know about it. We will pick the five most creative tributes to poetry and post them on the Borzoi Reader. Winners will receive five books of poetry from Knopf. View the official rules here: http://www.knopfpoetry.com/rules.html ************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 21 22:47:49 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:47:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under Message-ID: I think it's a shame. I don't think Foetry was about the complete accuracy of the accusations. (I'm happy to believe Janet Holmes is blameless; Jorie Graham is another matter. And I'm sure submission numbers aren't down at any one of the accused presses/contests.) Foretry was not a court of law; it's website, after all. Anyone who takes what's asserted on the www as Gospel reads the Bible literally, so to speak. The point was always to make people/poets look at the contest system as the flawed process it is. I know (fact) they caught at least on case of insider trading. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 21 23:00:12 2005 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:00:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's your daddy? Message-ID: <140.42cdf7ea.2f99c2bc@aol.com> In a message dated 4/21/2005 7:49:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > Yeah, that's what we want in a poetry discussion list and in > intelligent moderation, isn't it: more Grumman and less Spacks? Who's > making these decisions? And why? Me, i'm the only one you?(&?Bob)?need to please, Marcus. Barry is great. I just think more people need to learn how to block certain email addresses...it's easy and costs nothing. It might save burst veins in the neck and lessen the need to jump on?daft things that are sometimes (sometimes too often) said on a list. ? Jim Finnegan De Facto Emperor Extraordinaire in the e-realm we call NewPoetry (Not the Bob List, which, if exists at all, would be a lonely list, I'm sure.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Apr 22 00:49:52 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:49:52 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under Message-ID: <200504220328.j3M3S3xG393908@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Finnegan---I, for one, also lament the "uncovering" of Foetry and the vindication of "business as usual"-- thanks, Chris ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under Date: Thu, Apr 21, 2005, 6:47 PM I think it's a shame. I don't think Foetry was about the complete accuracy of the accusations. (I'm happy to believe Janet Holmes is blameless; Jorie Graham is another matter. And I'm sure submission numbers aren't down at any one of the accused presses/contests.) Foretry was not a court of law; it's website, after all. Anyone who takes what's asserted on the www as Gospel reads the Bible literally, so to speak. The point was always to make people/poets look at the contest system as the flawed process it is. I know (fact) they caught at least on case of insider trading. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Thu Apr 21 23:31:38 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:31:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050421223018.N3017@kpaul.spinweb.net> may a hundred other foetrys rise up... stay tuned... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ p.s. i did see some site the other day unmasking some of the worse examples of 'bad poetry contests'... the whole site wasn't dedicated to it, but they had a secion. can't remember where at the moment, tho... oh the trouble w/getting old... ;) On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > I think it's a shame. I don't think Foetry was about > the complete accuracy of the accusations. > (I'm happy to believe Janet Holmes is blameless; > Jorie Graham is another matter. > And I'm sure submission numbers aren't down > at any one of the accused presses/contests.) > Foretry was not a court of law; it's website, after all. > Anyone who takes what's asserted on the www > as Gospel reads the Bible literally, so to speak. > The point was always to make people/poets look at > the contest system as the flawed process it is. > I know (fact) they caught at least on case of > insider trading. > Finnegan > From tad at opus40.org Thu Apr 21 23:52:52 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:52:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion Discovers Free Verse Message-ID: <000b01c546ee$c55ffc50$6701a8c0@MoleHQ> ...and doesn't like it. http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/apr05/yezzi.htm Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 22 03:27:21 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:27:21 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's your daddy? References: <140.42cdf7ea.2f99c2bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <005d01c5470c$b8e85260$47ed3652@ANNY> If people didn't know yet, they might have skipped one of my mails, I _one of the worst anarchists on earth_ am proud of our Emperor Magnificus Extraordinaire, him invisible. As I always enjoy Barry's posts and I lament they are too few. I use that little trick of blocking the ones I do not like, this prevents me from doing several things: - answering back and answering back with grudges grumbling all over the place - ruining my day and the day after with night in-between and so to continue - employing all my _definitely limited_ poetic energies to write vindictive libels, tragedies in which I die because of my enemies to pull water to my fate, fairy tales with the said unwanted that end up being the scary _Dark & Mean_ thus: my life is made easier & I can see that spring is here Best wishes, Anny Ballardini ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 5:00 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Who's your daddy? In a message dated 4/21/2005 7:49:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: Yeah, that's what we want in a poetry discussion list and in intelligent moderation, isn't it: more Grumman and less Spacks? Who's making these decisions? And why? Me, i'm the only one you (& Bob) need to please, Marcus. Barry is great. I just think more people need to learn how to block certain email addresses...it's easy and costs nothing. It might save burst veins in the neck and lessen the need to jump on daft things that are sometimes (sometimes too often) said on a list. Jim Finnegan De Facto Emperor Extraordinaire in the e-realm we call NewPoetry (Not the Bob List, which, if exists at all, would be a lonely list, I'm sure.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 22 06:31:25 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:31:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under References: <20050421223018.N3017@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <008901c54726$6ff60290$4ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I never thought much of Foetry. It may have uncovered some intentionally dishonest contests, but I couldn't tell the honest contests from the dishonest since the same kinds of people always won them. It would have been nice if Foetry had put ALL the poetry contests out of business, though. No one not willing to lose money and spend a lot of time should publish poetry. They should discover new poets by carefully reading submissions--and exploring more than mainstream publications. None of this matters much, thanks to the Internet. Publishing people is now much easier and cheaper, so should not require the swindling of naive poets to carry out, however honestly. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 22 14:11:13 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:11:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion Discovers Free Verse Message-ID: <2b.71b920fe.2f9a9841@cs.com> "Today, as I have said, it is not necessary to understand prosody at all in order to write a successful poem in English or to be a successful poet." David Yezzi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 22 16:29:58 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:29:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] All stupid this time! Message-ID: <005701c5477a$0db64b40$edaa3452@ANNY> Sent by Lori to the Buffalo List, worth bringing it here also for a smile, Emails more damaging than cannabis Experts warn on dangers of 'Crackberry' addiction Iain Thomson, vnunet.com 22 Apr 2005 http://www.vnunet.com/news/1162648 Researchers at the University of London Institute of Psychiatry have found that the constant distractions of email and texting are more harmful to performance than cannabis. Those distracted by incoming email, phone calls and text messages saw a 10-point fall in their IQ, more than twice that found in studies of the impact of smoking cannabis, according to the researchers. Some 1,100 volunteers were used in the study, sponsored by HP. Half of those questioned said that they reply to emails instantly or as soon as possible, and one in five admitted to breaking off meals or social engagements to deal with email. This constant shifting of concentration makes the brain more tired and less focused, and causes the temporary IQ fall-off. Email and SMS are also making us work longer. Over 60 per cent of those questioned answered work emails at home or when they are on holiday. The phenomenon of email addiction is well known, not least to users of RIM's BlackBerry devices. Intel president Craig Barratt and many others refer to these devices as 'CrackBerrys' because of the obsessive email use they inspire in their owners. ___________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 23 08:08:00 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:08:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry References: <140.42cdf7ea.2f99c2bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <004101c547fd$18c63cb0$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> This topic got very incompletely discussed, it seems to me. It drew a few opinions, little else. It interests me, hence this return to it. It also interested the American Acamedy of Poets enough to make a list of collections of poetry it viewed as "groundbreaking," so it should be of interest to many followers of the Academy here. What I want to find out in this post is simply what is meant by "groundbreaking." One New-Poetry participant would seem to think it means any newness in poetry, and since all poems are new, it would cover any collection of poetry. I prefer a definition that is useful, though, so would define groundbreaking as "significantly MORE original than most poetry is." David Graham said "groundbreaking" also means "influential." When I began to write this post, I thought that made no sense. What does influentiality have to do with groundbreaking? Sure, in common use, "groundbreaking" would suggest "something to come." But it needn't. The ground will be broken whether anything is erected on the site or not. And it's broken whether the tractor that does the job is pretty or not. But as I thought about it, I realized that the Academy, in using the term, was almost surely not meaning "innovative" only. In fact, I suspect that it meant *only* "influential," considering how few of the books on it s list of groundbreakers was innovative in any significant way. In any case, it now seems to me reasonable to split innovative poetry into two kinds, influential and uninfluential, and to call the former "groundbreaking." My definition of groundbreaking poetry to this point would therefore be, "poetry significantly MORE original than most poetry is, and influential." Okay, so what is "significantly more original" and when can a collection of poetry be said to be influential? Those to me are the questions that have to be answered before we can begin to make any sound list of "groundbreaking collections of poetry." Anyone interested in discussing them (preferably without bringing my motives for wanting to discuss them or for any of my opinions in the discussion)? I have my presentation on Cummings to work on, so don't feel I ought to spend more time on this right now. Needless to say, I have plenty to say about what's "significantly more original than most poetry." I have less to say about influentiality, but I would like to mention here that one factor generally overlooked is qualitative influence, which would have to do with the value of the poetry resulting from an influential collection. Bukowski, for instance, has been extremely quantitatively influential, but not terrifically influential qualitatively, as far as I can tell. One last word: whatever we mean by groundbreaking poetry, I for one do not claim that ONLY groundbreaking poetry is of value. I hope no one will accuse me of that. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 23 20:36:51 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:36:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] All stupid this time! In-Reply-To: <005701c5477a$0db64b40$edaa3452@ANNY> References: <005701c5477a$0db64b40$edaa3452@ANNY> Message-ID: ;) Hal On Apr 22, 2005, at 4:29 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Sent by Lori to the Buffalo List, worth bringing it here also for a > smile, > ? > Emails more damaging than cannabis > Experts warn on dangers of 'Crackberry' addiction > Iain Thomson, vnunet.com 22 Apr 2005 > http://www.vnunet.com/news/1162648 > > Researchers at the University of London Institute of Psychiatry have > found that the constant distractions of email and texting are more > harmful to performance than cannabis. > > Those distracted by incoming email, phone calls and text messages saw > a 10-point fall in their IQ, more than twice that found in studies of > the impact of smoking cannabis, according to the researchers. > > Some 1,100 volunteers were used in the study, sponsored by HP. Half of > those questioned said that they reply to emails instantly or as soon > as possible, and one in five admitted to breaking off meals or social > engagements to deal with email. > > This constant shifting of concentration makes the brain more tired and > less focused, and causes the temporary IQ fall-off. > > Email and SMS are also making us work longer. Over 60 per cent of > those questioned answered work emails at home or when they are on > holiday. > > The phenomenon of email addiction is well known, not least to users of > RIM's BlackBerry devices. > > Intel president Craig Barratt and many others refer to these devices > as 'CrackBerrys' because of the obsessive email use they inspire in > their owners. > > ___________________________ > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4100 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 23 08:44:46 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:44:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry References: <140.42cdf7ea.2f99c2bc@aol.com> <004101c547fd$18c63cb0$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005901c54802$3b4550a0$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I left out something I just added to my post while sticking it into my blog: "I leave out any evaluative concern with the value of any specimen of groundbreaking poetry as irrelevant. A lousy poem can be influential and even innovative. Some very bad, very innovative poems have been much more influential than some very good ones (sometimes even to good effect)." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 23 09:16:02 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:16:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] All stupid this time! References: <005701c5477a$0db64b40$edaa3452@ANNY> Message-ID: <007f01c54806$99449720$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> The article iz withutfuNdatiohn!#$@#%^#!!! My IKu hazunt lost a pint. In ft, it's gone up, in fc--dduubblleedd to almost mURKs's, in ft. --BoB g. ----- Original Message ----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] All stupid this time! ;) Hal On Apr 22, 2005, at 4:29 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Sent by Lori to the Buffalo List, worth bringing it here also for a smile, Emails more damaging than cannabis Experts warn on dangers of 'Crackberry' addiction Iain Thomson, vnunet.com 22 Apr 2005 http://www.vnunet.com/news/1162648 Researchers at the University of London Institute of Psychiatry have found that the constant distractions of email and texting are more harmful to performance than cannabis. Those distracted by incoming email, phone calls and text messages saw a 10-point fall in their IQ, more than twice that found in studies of the impact of smoking cannabis, according to the researchers. Some 1,100 volunteers were used in the study, sponsored by HP. Half of those questioned said that they reply to emails instantly or as soon as possible, and one in five admitted to breaking off meals or social engagements to deal with email. This constant shifting of concentration makes the brain more tired and less focused, and causes the temporary IQ fall-off. Email and SMS are also making us work longer. Over 60 per cent of those questioned answered work emails at home or when they are on holiday. The phenomenon of email addiction is well known, not least to users of RIM's BlackBerry devices. Intel president Craig Barratt and many others refer to these devices as 'CrackBerrys' because of the obsessive email use they inspire in their owners. ___________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 23 10:49:05 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:49:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 180 More Message-ID: Just out is a a new poetry anthology edited by Billy Collins, *180 More: Extraordinary Poems for Every Day*, from Random House. This is a companion volume to his earlier *Poetry 180*, which itself was a spinoff from his web site of the same name. I'm fondly disposed toward it because he includes one of mine, but there are plenty of others to enjoy, including a good number of Usual Suspects (Koch, Milosz, Olds, Atwood, Padgett, Szymborska, C. K. Williams, Simic, Kooser, Hecht, Tate, Doty, Bly, Justice, Ashbery, Nye...) as well as some poets as obscure as myself. Two poems by a Russian immigrant, Katia Kapovich, have particularly struck me. I also spotted Sam Gwynn in the table of contents, by the way. In his introductory essay Collins has some interesting things to say about what he terms "the scarlet A-word," *accessible*, and his take on this very vexed aesthetic question is well worth a look, I think. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 23 10:58:44 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:58:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Noiseless Entourage Message-ID: >From another new book on my shelf: Used Book Store Lovers hold hands in never-opened novels. The page with a recipe for cucumber soup is missing. A dead man writes of his happy childhood on a farm, Of riding in a balloon over Lake Erie. A sudden draft shuts the book in my hand, While a philosopher asks how is it possible To maintain the theologically orthodox doctrine Of eternal punishment of the damned? Let's see. There may be sand among the pages Of a travel guide to Egypt or even a dead flea That once bit the ass of the mysterious Abigail Who scribbled her name teasingly with an eye pencil. --Charles Simic. My Noiseless Entourage. Harcourt, 2005. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 23 11:04:48 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:04:48 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] 180 More References: Message-ID: <002601c54815$cae7a920$dfaf3252@ANNY> Thank you for this David. I am particularly fond of Katia Kapovich and I feature her on the Corner. I even translated a couple of her pOms, the ones that _struck me_. Here is her link: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=33 Which are the poems included in the anthology? Care, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 4:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] 180 More > Just out is a a new poetry anthology edited by Billy Collins, *180 More: > Extraordinary Poems for Every Day*, from Random House. This is a > companion > volume to his earlier *Poetry 180*, which itself was a spinoff from his > web > site of the same name. > > I'm fondly disposed toward it because he includes one of mine, but there > are > plenty of others to enjoy, including a good number of Usual Suspects > (Koch, > Milosz, Olds, Atwood, Padgett, Szymborska, C. K. Williams, Simic, Kooser, > Hecht, Tate, Doty, Bly, Justice, Ashbery, Nye...) as well as some poets as > obscure as myself. Two poems by a Russian immigrant, Katia Kapovich, have > particularly struck me. I also spotted Sam Gwynn in the table of > contents, > by the way. > > In his introductory essay Collins has some interesting things to say about > what he terms "the scarlet A-word," *accessible*, and his take on this > very > vexed aesthetic question is well worth a look, I think. > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 23 11:27:24 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:27:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 180 More Message-ID: <149.43ecc67c.2f9bc35c@cs.com> In a message dated 4/23/2005 9:48:16 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > I'm fondly disposed toward it because he includes one of mine, but there are > plenty of others to enjoy, including a good number of Usual Suspects (Koch, > Milosz, Olds, Atwood, Padgett, Szymborska, C. K. Williams, Simic, Kooser, > Hecht, Tate, Doty, Bly, Justice, Ashbery, Nye...) as well as some poets as > obscure as myself. Two poems by a Russian immigrant, Katia Kapovich, have > particularly struck me. I also spotted Sam Gwynn in the table of contents, > by the way. > > In his introductory essay Collins has some interesting things to say about > what he terms "the scarlet A-word," *accessible*, and his take on this very > vexed aesthetic question is well worth a look, I think. > I like his notion of a poem's being "hospitable." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 23 11:42:41 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:42:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 180 More In-Reply-To: <002601c54815$cae7a920$dfaf3252@ANNY> Message-ID: on 4/23/05 10:04 AM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote: > Thank you for this David. I am particularly fond of Katia Kapovich and I > feature her on the Corner. I even translated a couple of her pOms, the ones > that _struck me_. Here is her link: > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&ci > d=33 > > Which are the poems included in the anthology? > Care, > Anny You're welcome, Anny. I love it when anthologies introduce me to new voices. Hunting up more Katia Kapovich poems on the web, I came across the full table of contents for the Collins anthology, which may be of more general interest: http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/bookseaohb.cgi?ISBN=0812972961 &AREA=07 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 23 11:56:42 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:56:42 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] 180 More References: Message-ID: <008901c5481d$0b7f22e0$dfaf3252@ANNY> Very good choices, the ones I can recognize, compliments to you all. From: "David Graham" > on 4/23/05 10:04 AM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote: > >> Thank you for this David. I am particularly fond of Katia Kapovich and I >> feature her on the Corner. I even translated a couple of her pOms, the >> ones >> that _struck me_. Here is her link: >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&ci >> d=33 >> >> Which are the poems included in the anthology? >> Care, >> Anny > > > You're welcome, Anny. I love it when anthologies introduce me to new > voices. > > Hunting up more Katia Kapovich poems on the web, I came across the full > table of contents for the Collins anthology, which may be of more general > interest: > > http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/bookseaohb.cgi?ISBN=0812972961 > &AREA=07 > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 23 12:00:02 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:00:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 180 More References: Message-ID: <00c301c5481d$8371ec60$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Just out is a a new poetry anthology edited by Billy Collins, *180 More: > Extraordinary Poems for Every Day*, from Random House. This is a > companion > volume to his earlier *Poetry 180*, which itself was a spinoff from his > web > site of the same name. > > I'm fondly disposed toward it because he includes one of mine, but there > are > plenty of others to enjoy, including a good number of Usual Suspects > (Koch, > Milosz, Olds, Atwood, Padgett, Szymborska, C. K. Williams, Simic, Kooser, > Hecht, Tate, Doty, Bly, Justice, Ashbery, Nye...) as well as some poets as > obscure as myself. Two poems by a Russian immigrant, Katia Kapovich, have > particularly struck me. I also spotted Sam Gwynn in the table of > contents, > by the way. You deserve to be in it, David. So does Sam. Heheheheh. > In his introductory essay Collins has some interesting things to say about > what he terms "the scarlet A-word," *accessible*, and his take on this > very > vexed aesthetic question is well worth a look, I think. I suspect that I agree with everything he says about it. My problem is with HIS scarlet I-word, innovative. No doubt he says nothing against it, but all his acts indicate an abhorrence of it. (Hey, I really AM pleased that good conventional poets are getting their due; I just wish a few unconventional ones besides the acadominant language poets would--and that someone like Billy Collins would put out an anthology covering the whole field.) --Bob G. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 23 12:19:37 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:19:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cummings's Influence References: Message-ID: <00c901c54820$3ebcef90$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm trying to gather poems by contemporary poets that seem influenced by Cummings's poems. Would be grateful if anyone who knows of any sent them to me. Meanwhile, here are two ACCESSIBLE ones by John Martone I can't imagine anyone not liking: reading beatrix to eva a gar den her eyes close reading my joy ful book o ver flows No, I don't count these as groundbreaking or, now, innovative. They're probably not major, either--though Martone has done a lot as good, which could make his over-all accomplishment major. (Question: would a hundred excellent minor poems equal one major poem?) The special effect of the way the first is laid out (if certain people will allow me to think out loud here instead of holding off until I've thought it through, and gotten feedback from some kind of panel of peers--or superiors) is that it makes what I call a juxtaphor of garden and a child who's falling asleep. Child-as-garden. A juxtaphor is a implicit metaphor one part of a poem makes with another simply because right next to it, juxtaposed to it. We know it's there because it works. As this one does for me. Compare what the poem is to what it would conventionally be: i.e., "As I read a Potter story about a garden/ to my duaghter, she fell asleep." Even if my thunkish prose were enlarged to poetry, the image would simply be a perhaps charming one of a father reading to his daughter, but the juxtaphor wouldn't be there, nor anything likely to equal it. The other, composed Cummingsesquely (but--interestingly--less unorthodoxly than some of his because not breaking intrasyllabically), disconceals the book as a joy, as something worth an "oh!" and as something that flows, as well as overflows, which strikes me more as spilling than of going somewhere. In any case, the read is kept slow by the lineation, and "flows" is emphasized through isolation, two standard tricks of Cummings. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 24 00:27:39 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:27:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cummings's Influence In-Reply-To: <00c901c54820$3ebcef90$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <00c901c54820$3ebcef90$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <31284201-B479-11D9-B967-0011247DB782@earthlink.net> How about dividing Cumming's poem into those that can be read aloud and those that cannot--i.e., are, one might say, eye-only (or almost only)? Good job for you, Bob? Hal On Apr 23, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I'm trying to gather poems by contemporary poets that seem influenced > by Cummings's poems.? Would be grateful if anyone who knows of any > sent them to me.? Meanwhile, here are two ACCESSIBLE ones by John > Martone I can't imagine anyone not liking: > ? > reading beatrix to eva > ? > a > gar > den > her > eyes > close > ? > ? > ? > reading > ? > my > joy > ful > ? > book > o > ver > ? > flows > ? > ? > No, I don't count these as groundbreaking or, now, innovative.? > They're probably not major, either--though Martone has done a lot as > good, which could make his over-all accomplishment major.? (Question: > would a hundred excellent minor poems equal one major poem?) > ? > The special effect of the way the first is laid out (if certain people > will allow me to think out loud here instead of holding off until I've > thought it through, and gotten feedback from some kind of panel of > peers--or superiors) is that it makes what I call a juxtaphor of > garden and a child who's falling asleep.? Child-as-garden.? A > juxtaphor is a implicit metaphor one part of a poem makes with another > simply because right next to it, juxtaposed to it.? We know it's there > because it works.? As this one does for me.? Compare what the poem is > to what it would conventionally be: i.e., "As I read a Potter story > about a garden/ to my duaghter, she fell asleep."? Even if my thunkish > prose were enlarged to poetry, the image would simply be a perhaps > charming one of a father reading to his daughter, but the juxtaphor > wouldn't be there, nor anything likely to equal it. > ? > The other, composed Cummingsesquely (but--interestingly--less > unorthodoxly than some of his because not breaking intrasyllabically), > disconceals the book as a joy, as something worth an "oh!" and as > something that flows, as well as overflows, which strikes me more as > spilling than of going somewhere.? In any case, the read is kept slow > by the lineation, and "flows" is emphasized through isolation, two > standard tricks of Cummings. > ? > --Bob G.? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cc at opus0.com Sat Apr 23 12:39:12 2005 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:39:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Foetry goes under In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Seems to me without evidence, the message below perpetuates an injustice. > From: JforJames at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry goes under > Date: Thu, Apr 21, 2005, 6:47 PM > > > (I'm happy to believe Janet Holmes is blameless; > Jorie Graham is another matter. > ... > Finnegan From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 23 12:49:10 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:49:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cummings's Influence References: <00c901c54820$3ebcef90$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <31284201-B479-11D9-B967-0011247DB782@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00f701c54824$5fc7a870$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> How about dividing Cumming's poem into those that can be read aloud and those that cannot--i.e., are, one might say, eye-only (or almost only)? Good job for you, Bob? Good question, which has come up in some of the things I've read about Cummings--even in the Collins piece, I think. My first thought is that his poems split into non-oral visual poems; inf rave rbal p oems which can, with difficulty, be read aloud; and poems that can be read easily aloud (which could be split into syntactically difficult and conventional). Actually, the visual ones, some of them, could be translated into sound poems through use of speakers at differents parts of a stage, soprano/bass interplay (soprano as lower-case, bass as upper, say) and other devices. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Apr 23 12:50:39 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050423165044.13157.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> can anyone provide me with information/facts/details of the other members of the Order of the Golden Dawn apart from Blavatsky/Yeats/Crowley? I'm working on a paper presently. Please only reply if you are: a) serious b) serious __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 13:06:37 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:06:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050423165044.13157.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12e501c54826$d024d8c0$e79c9951@Robin> > can anyone provide me with information/facts/details > of the other members of the Order of the Golden Dawn > apart from Blavatsky/Yeats/Crowley? I'm working on a > paper presently. Please only reply if you are: > a) serious > b) serious I'm not sure there *is* anything much beyond the Yeats/Crowley axis, but you could always try McGregor Maddocks-- both Yeats and Crowley despised Blavatsky, but they had a singular loathing for Maddocks. Just a thot. The Freemartin From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Apr 23 13:36:48 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:36:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <20050423165044.13157.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/occult/golden_dawn.html says: The group was founded in the year 1888 by William Wynn Westcott (1848-1925), a doctor, and a master mason, William Robert Woodman, also a doctor and a mason, and Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers (1854-1918), who was also a mason. ... The Golden Dawn had some very influential people within its ranks. W. B. Yeats, Aleister Crowley, Constance Wilde, Algernon Blackwood, Arthur Machen, A. E. Waite, Annie Horniman, Florence Farr, Gerald Kelly and Maude Gonne were all members. There was also a rumour that Wallace Budge, who was in charge of Egyptology at the British Museum, was also involved, although this has never been verified. P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Murphy > Sent: 23 April 2005 17:51 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn > > can anyone provide me with information/facts/details of the > other members of the Order of the Golden Dawn apart from > Blavatsky/Yeats/Crowley? I'm working on a paper presently. > Please only reply if you are: > a) serious > b) serious > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Apr 23 13:38:20 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:38:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <20050423165044.13157.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Are you working on a rival to the Da Vinci Cod? > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Murphy > Sent: 23 April 2005 17:51 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn > > can anyone provide me with information/facts/details of the > other members of the Order of the Golden Dawn apart from > Blavatsky/Yeats/Crowley? I'm working on a paper presently. > Please only reply if you are: > a) serious > b) serious > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 23 13:44:50 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:44:50 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Migraciones by Gloria Gervitz Message-ID: <000d01c5482c$26fb2000$dfaf3252@ANNY> Sent by Mark Weiss, editor of Junction Press to the Buffalo List: Junction Press is pleased to announce the publication of Migrations / Migraciones, by Gloria Gervitz, the life's work of one of the most important Mexican poets of the post-Paz generation. At times frankly and lushly erotic in the tradition of both the 17th-century mother of all post-conquest Mexican poetry in Spanish, Sor Juana In?s de la Cruz, and of modern Mexican feminism, for which the erotic has become a way of reclaiming the body, it is a complex interweaving of personal and family memory, Biblical reference, the mystical traditions of the Judaism of her family and the folk Catholicism of her paternal grandmother, who, like the other women of Gervitz' ancestry, rises to the surface of the poem like a ghost of the imagination. Written from within Mexico's displaced Eastern European Jewish community, it is, as Jerome Rothenberg has said, "an epic of the migratory self," an almost thirty-year journey of the nomadic spirit, and an ecstatic arrival. With its mixed parentage and its sense of displacement, the journey is at once profoundly Mexican, and profoundly American, the discovery of a new internal place where warring selves may be brought together. Mark Schafer has given us a translation, itself the work of thirteen years, worthy of the original-a profound meditation on the text that stands as an extended lyric in its own right. His thoughtful conversation with Gervitz follows the poem. Migrations / Migraciones should be of interest to all those interested in poetry, Latin American literature, and the Jewish experience. To say that this is a book of the immigrant experience-which in some sense it is-is to underrate the range of form and feeling that Gervitz brings to it, creating thereby an epic of the migratory self. Like Pound's Cantos or Zukofsky's A, hers is the work of a lifetime: a life's work including not only autobiography and familial memories as a kind of history but rife with religious and mystical imagery from Jewish kabbala to Mexican folk Catholicism and beyond. Migrations takes its place with theirs as a long and difficult poem which is the achievement of a great poetic talent: a complex tribute to the complex world from which it comes. Jerome Rothenberg Migrations presents the unmistakable, majestic voice of Gloria Gervitz, one of the most powerful and original voices of contemporary Jewish Latin American literature, in all its fullness, and Mark Schafer's translation does it justice. Mystical, at times wrenching, it is a poem of ancestral as well as modern voices, a poem that should be read slowly as if reading a prayer. Marjorie Agos?n Migraciones is an extraordinary and deeply moving poem. Gloria Gervitz looks out all the world's windows and Mark Schafer throws them open to gather in the most soaring and luminous of words. Migraciones is a journey to the depths, to the heights, and across the range of our most profound emotions. This is poetry that rains inside us, leading us back to primordial waters. Elena Poniatowska The sorrowful voice of Gloria Gervitz resounds within a terrifying vastness. Her words-prayer, oracle, litany-soar and plunge into the abyss, tempered by a breath that transcends meaning. They cross to the other side, to what precedes them, where submerged words breathe. Born of dark silence, her poetry rescues memory; it returns to the origin of its own pale dreams. Her poetry enthralls and overwhelms. Sa?l Yurkievich A dramatic affirmation that wonderful poetry still comes out of Mexico. Tony Fraser Retail price: $23.00. For list members: $16, plus $3 shipping in the US. from Part I: Shaharit In the migrations of red marigolds where songs burst from long-beaked birds and apples rot before the disaster Where women fondle their breasts and touch themselves in the perspiration of rice powder and teatime Climbing vines course through what remains always the same Cities crisscrossed by thought Ash Wednesday. Old nanny watches us from a beam of light Pools of shadow breathe, purples rain down nearly red The heat opens its jaws Below, the moon sinks into the street and a black woman's voice, a sad black woman's voice begins to sing The incense of gladioli and ferry boats grow And your fingers, lukewarm mollusks, slip inside me We are in the fragile hide of autumn In the rectangular park in the dog days when the pale shades are most deeply moving After Shaharit raw, forgotten prayers Winds rise lightly rinsed by invocation, forests of alders And my grandmother always played the same sonata A girl eats ice cream on a sunny corner of the street A man reads a paper while he waits for the bus The light fractures And clothing hangs in the sun. My grandmother's impenetrable sonata You said it was summer. O music And the invasion of dawns and the invasion of greens Below, shouts of children at play, nut vendors yellow roses breathing. And as we left the movies my grandmother said to me child, dream that the dream of life is beautiful Beneath the summer-drenched willow only restlessness lingers Docile clouds descend into the silence The day evaporates in the hot air Green erupts within green I spread my legs beneath the bathtub faucet The gushing water falls Enters me This is the hour when the words of the Zohar are spread out Still the same questions as always I sink deeper and deeper The light throbs wildly In the vertigo of Kol Nidre before the great fast begins In the blue haze of the synagogues Before and after Rosh Hashanah In the whiteness of the rain in the Plaza del Carmen my grandmother says her five o'clock rosary And swooping in the background the shofar's echo opens the year ___________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 23 13:47:25 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:47:25 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: Message-ID: <25a401c5482c$82b50730$e79c9951@Robin> > Are you working on a rival to the Da Vinci Cod? That's totally unfair, Peter. The Golden Dawn is stictly nut hatch stuff, but at least it's vaguely *documented* nut hatch. Unlike the Da Vinci Code ... Giordano the Man From hruggier at localnet.com Sat Apr 23 15:03:13 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:03:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry References: <013201c545e0$5991ded0$68b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005801c54837$19af57d0$610c9942@Helen> Seems to me that if we deducted the suicides from the poets column we'd increase longevity. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry Kaufman surveyed nearly 2,000 significant male and female writers and found that nonfiction writers live an average of 67.9 years, novelists 66 years, playwrights 63.4 years and poets 62.2. Sounds about right to me. Nonfiction writers live an average of ten percent more intensely than average people, novelists twelve percent, playwrights fifteen percent, and poets soxteeny percent. This is mostly a joke, of course, but I truly believe that creativity involves changing gears, which wears a person down faster than staying in one gear the way non-creative people do, and nonfiction writers do more than other writers, and poets do less. --Bob G. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 23 15:07:50 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:07:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] newest occupational hazard: Poetry In-Reply-To: <005801c54837$19af57d0$610c9942@Helen> Message-ID: on 4/23/05 2:03 PM, Helen Ruggieri at hruggier at localnet.com wrote: Seems to me that if we deducted the suicides from the poets column we'd increase longevity. ==================== DON'T KILL YOURSELF Carlos, calm down, love is what you are seeing: a kiss today, tomorrow no kiss, the day after tomorrow is Sunday and nobody knows what will happen on Monday. It's useless to resist or to commit suicide. Don't kill yourself. Don't kill yourself. Save all of yourself for the wedding though nobody knows whenor if it will ever come. Carlos, earthy Carlos, love spent the night with you and your deepeest self is raising a terrible racket, prayers, stereos, saints in procession, adds for the best soap, a racket for which nobody knows the why or wherefor. Meanwhile, you walk upright, unhappy. You are the palm tree, you are the shout that nobody heard in the theater and all the lights went out. Love in darkness, no, in daylight, is always sad, Carlos, my boy, don't tell anyone, nobody knows or will know. --Carlos Drummond de Andrade, trans. fr. the Portugese by Mark Strand ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Sat Apr 23 15:19:08 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050423191908.40834.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> no, an article on Yeats and Hans Asperger relating some of the occultism to symptoms of autism also the occult and physics, magic and its relationship (or lack of it) with science --- Peter Cudmore wrote: > Are you working on a rival to the Da Vinci Cod? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On > Behalf Of Paul Murphy > > Sent: 23 April 2005 17:51 > > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn > > > > can anyone provide me with > information/facts/details of the > > other members of the Order of the Golden Dawn > apart from > > Blavatsky/Yeats/Crowley? I'm working on a paper > presently. > > Please only reply if you are: > > a) serious > > b) serious > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection > > around http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mandolin at mac.com Sun Apr 24 00:36:36 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:36:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ted Kooser and John Prine Message-ID: <00dbc7911f3470f26d10b05337f071a1@mac.com> Video worth watching, if you've got broadband. http://www.loc.gov/today/cyberlc/feature_wdesc.php?rec=3677 From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 24 10:16:31 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 10:16:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry In-Reply-To: <004101c547fd$18c63cb0$47b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost> On 23 Apr 2005 at 8:08, Bob Grumman wrote: > My definition of groundbreaking poetryto this point would therefore > be, "poetry significantly MORE original than most poetry is, and > influential." ... > ... I for one do > not claim that ONLY groundbreaking poetry is of value. ... > ... I leave out any evaluative concern with the value of any > specimen of groundbreaking poetry as irrelevant. A lousy poem can be > influential and even innovative. Some very bad, very innovative poems > have been much more influential than some very good ones (sometimes > even to good effect). This last point first: what a silly position to take! If the metaphor of "groundbreaking" has any meaning it is an evaluative meaning. Groundbreaking is what's required for planting or building -- that's the metaphor, and the entirety of the metaphor is evaluative: it's good to break ground to plant or build. Without planting something or building something in the ground that's been broken, there's simply no point to breaking the ground in the first place, except perhaps random destruction -- and who among us is going to seriously hold that random destruction is a valuable act? As a metaphor in the arts "groundbreaking" has to be a positive evaluative term or it is a meaningless term. Now the first point: "more original" -- isn't this like "kind of unique" -- meaninglessly oxymoronic, not generatively oxymoronic? The problem with talking about poems or poetry without defining those terms first, irrespective of the adjectives one applies to them, is that those words may be used either as descriptive or evaluative terms. Without some indication from the writer or speaker about how he or she is using those terms it's practically impossible to get a sense of what is being asserted or claimed. Adjectivizing the adjective ("more original") is no help even if such an attempt were not an oxymoron. So the first question is whether we're going to use the term "poetry" as a description of a broad range of attempted language art effects, some of which are successful and some of which are not, and everything in between? Or are we going to use the term "poetry" to mean "the good stuff that is qualitatively better than the mass of attempts"? Without agreement about which way we'll use the word "poetry" we cannot reasonably expect to make any sense by adding adjectives to it such as "original" or "groundbreaking". Next, we have to agree on whether such adjectives as "original" or "groundbreaking" are going to be used sincerely or ironically. Only if we can agree to use them sincerely does it make any sense to continue, since the notion of calling some poem one dislikes "original" or "groundbreaking" ironically in order to get out of giving our real opinion (for whatever reason) shoots the very notion of "original" and "groundbreaking" dead outright. Then there's the difficulty of "influential" -- how are we to measure influence? We say in the real world that one may be influenced for good or bad: a criminal may be "influential", for example. Are we going to allow these meanings in a discussion of whether a poem or poet is "influential"? I think we should not, since this is very much like allowing ourselves in this context to use "original" or "groundbreaking" ironically: it undermines the very notion we're trying to pursue. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Apr 24 11:22:06 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:22:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Statistical query References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost> Message-ID: <002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> How many (if any) people on this list are on either British Poetry or poetryetc? (Having said that, I recognise that at least two members of this list once were but are no longer -- is this significant?) I ask this as these are, to my mind, the two main "UK" lists -- not (necessarily) because they have more Brits than non-Brit members but because the tone and focus tend to be "British". (This is more true of britpo than petc but -- part of why I'm asking -- is that there's a large membership overlap between those two lists.) ... but there doesn't seem to be an (obvious) overlap between either of those two and NP. Nothing to do with poetry really, sheer curiosity on my part. I suppose tangentially (and equally irrelevantly) there's the question of who haunts both poetry and academic lists? I know that both Bob Grumman and I are on SHAKSPER, but beyond that ... And to continue this, does anyone other than me have a problem with adjusting their idiom of discourse between UK/US lists and poetry/academic lists? And *between* academic lists, where the verbal dress code can differ quite drastically. SHAKSPER (as at least Bob will know) has a "British/loose" code, Ficino is quite narrowly (and comfortingly, as at least you know where you are) academic. The extreme is Milton-L, which is both American code and deeply hierarchical, being reminiscent of nothing so much as a pack of noyaux gorillas. Slow thoughts on a sunny Sunday afternoon. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 17:19:36 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:19:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Test References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost> <002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <01ad01c54913$518e1740$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I had two posts bounced from New-Poetry, one of them a response to Marcus, so I thought I'd accidentally broken a promise not to engage him more than once per thread, or something. But later I got a New-Poetry post. So maybe I didn't get canned? If so, I have resolved NOT to reply to anything of Marcus's from now on. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 17:38:16 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:38:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Statistical query References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost> <002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > How many (if any) people on this list are on either British Poetry or > poetryetc? > (Having said that, I recognise that at least two members of this list once > were but are no longer -- is this significant?) I've never been on either. Looks like I'm still on this one, which is a relief, because I'm gearing up to post burstnorm poems that I think accessible and see what the reaction to them is. I'm also on a list devoted to the Shakespeare authorship question where I'm sometimes much more impolite to anti-Stratfordians as I am to my opponents here. And, as Robin has said, I post occasionally to Shaksper, where I'm sometimes sarcastic but not very impolite, I don't think. > I ask this as these are, to my mind, the two main "UK" lists -- not > (necessarily) because they have more Brits than non-Brit members but > because > the tone and focus tend to be "British". > > (This is more true of britpo than petc but -- part of why I'm asking -- is > that there's a large membership overlap between those two lists.) > > ... but there doesn't seem to be an (obvious) overlap between either of > those two and NP. > > Nothing to do with poetry really, sheer curiosity on my part. > > I suppose tangentially (and equally irrelevantly) there's the question of > who haunts both poetry and academic lists? I know that both Bob Grumman > and > I are on SHAKSPER, but beyond that ... > And to continue this, does anyone other than me have a problem with > adjusting their idiom of discourse between UK/US lists and poetry/academic > lists? > And *between* academic lists, where the verbal dress code can differ quite > drastically. SHAKSPER (as at least Bob will know) has a "British/loose" > code, Ficino is quite narrowly (and comfortingly, as at least you know > where > you are) academic. The extreme is Milton-L, which is both American code > and > deeply hierarchical, being reminiscent of nothing so much as a pack of > noyaux gorillas. Gee, too bad I'm not too interested in Milton! > Slow thoughts on a sunny Sunday afternoon. > > Robin Slow replies after a day I actually got some work done. Scanned in poems from something like 20 poets I think influenced by Cummings, just about none of whom posters to New-Poetry will have heard of. Creeley was one, but I'm using just one poem by him. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 17:47:48 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:47:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Marie Ponsot Message-ID: <01e701c54917$4261d370$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> What follows, a poem and NYTIMES article are stolen from Tia Ballantine poem-a-day-service. I found it amusing that I, once again, liked the work of the mainstreamer, especially the quoted poem, even though positively reviewed by a reviewer I have in the past found to be a complete dolt, in a paper I deem an enemy of poetry. Of course, it was what he found wrong with Ponsot that got me to read her poetry with favorable anticipation. NORTHAMPTON STYLE Evening falls. Someone's playing a dulcimer Northampton-style, on the porch out back. Its voice touches and parts the air of summer, as if it swam to time us down a river where we dive and leave a single track as evening falls. Someone's playing a dulcimer that lets us wash our mix of dreams together. Delicate, tacit, we engage in our act; its voice touches and parts the air of summer. When we disentangle you are not with her I am not with him. Redress calls for tact. Evening falls. Someone's playing a dulcimer still. A small breeze rises and the leaves stir as uneasy as we, while the woods go black; its voice touches and parts the air of summer and lets darkness enter us; our strings go slack though the player keeps up his plangent attack. Evening falls. Someone's playing a dulcimer; its voice touches and parts the air of summer. ---Marie Ponsot ---from: The Bird Catcher. NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1998. 'Springing': What's Not a Poem Has Been Discarded 'Springing': What's Not a Poem Has Been Discarded By DAVID ORR NYTimes April 21, 2002 One of the best things about being an American is that you are free to dislike poetry for any reason you want. You can say it's too clever or too dumb; you can think it's old-fashioned or pointlessly trendy; you can protest that it has nothing to do with real life or you can complain that it's mostly about Volkswagens and mastectomies. Whatever line you take, there will be room for your opinion in our larger, national antipathy for this snotty, boring, passe art form. And this, surely, is what democracy is all about. Yet ignoring poetry has its drawbacks. For one thing, it causes us to miss out on the pleasure of seeing our worst expectations exceeded. Some poems aren't just bad; they are stupendously awful, and reading them is even more fun than watching drunken confessions on ''Cops.'' By the same token, though, sometimes a collection of poems appears that isn't actually bad at all; that is, on the contrary, serious, persuasive and entertaining; that is -- it can happen -- a great book. Marie Ponsot's ''Springing'' is that kind of collection. Ponsot won't be a familiar name to most people (not even to some poets) because she's just turned 81, and her jacket photo, while appealing, lacks the Stevie Nicks-meets-Simone Weil allure that is usually the best way to sell a contemporary poet. On top of that, Ponsot is a pruner. She has published only five books (including this one) in her lifetime, and they're all short. Short, but accomplished. Ponsot is a love poet, a metaphysician and a formalist, but she is neither sappy nor tedious nor predictable. And she isn't cozy. Older poets -- particularly older female poets -- are often held up as representatives of all that is ''life-affirming,'' but Ponsot's best work has a dry bite that would make lunch meat out of Oprah, to say nothing of Dr. Phil. Her most recent collection, for example, began with a poem entitled ''I've Been Around: It Gets Me Nowhere,'' and Ponsot followed that up with a poem suggesting that the loss of old memories and feelings ''will empty me / too emptily / and keep me here / asleep, at sea / under the guilt quilt, / under the you tree.'' As tough as she is, though, Ponsot's sensibility is generally quirky rather than caustic; like Stevie Smith or Amy Clampitt, she cultivates an eccentricity that allows her to get her points across on the sly, even if it makes the occasional poem the verbal equivalent of your crazy aunt's feather boa. A typical Ponsot poem decorates a traditional -- or at least orderly -- formal structure with askew descriptions (''a shine of laughing''), clots of assonance (''blackish package'') and absolutely horrendous puns (''Self-schooled I've been fish''). Though she has a wide tonal range, Ponsot is most likely to be rakish or wounded and least likely to be starchy or cold. When she writes, ''The stopped woods / are seized of quiet,'' you get the feeling it never occurred to her that the phrase could sound pompous -- which is a good thing, because in her poem, it doesn't. Ponsot also has an attentive ear, and likes to show it off with gaudy stress exercises like the spondee-fest that begins her poem ''Pathetic Fallacies Are Bad Science But'': ''If leaf trash chokes the stream-bed, / reach for rock-bottom as you rake / the muck out.'' Reading a lot of this can be like eating a bucket of peanut butter. But Ponsot's baroque tendencies are usually winning: she seems to be having a good time, to be taking pleasure in her craft, and her enthusiasm is contagious even when the special effects don't quite come off. In any case, spectacle is secondary to Ponsot's work. No matter how much a poem may strain after play, Ponsot ultimately drives it toward a point or moral, as if Gerard Manley Hopkins were being manhandled midspring by Alexander Pope. Appropriately enough, this impulse often leads her to anchor her work with epigrams. Her sonnets, for example, frequently rely on concluding couplets that sum up in traditional Shakespearean fashion; as in, ''Patterns lapse in a bliss of signal mist / which concludes in the swim of the analyst.'' Even the new poems, which are stranger (and better) than her earliest writing, turn on epigrammatic conclusions, although here the language is looser and the wit more agile (''I think I've got whatever I need / in the overhead compartment''). This classical touch stabilizes Ponsot's work the way rhyme stabilizes Sylvia Plath's. And like Plath, Ponsot occasionally strays into near doggerel; for example, ''people penned in the scarred / yard stop at the metal / whistle blown hard.'' But where Plath uses this exaggerated form to convey aggression or desire (or, more frequently, both), Ponsot does so out of an assertive curiosity: she likes the sound of ''yard,'' so she's going to repeat it. This tactic doesn't water Plath down so much as pour similar energy into a differently shaped vessel; at her best, Ponsot has Plath's strangeness without her single-mindedness. Ponsot is least effective when her Hopkinsesque phrasing provides cover for such thrown-together descriptions as ''the othering bliss of child'' or, worse, ''the faithing leap of sex.'' In these moments, Ponsot sounds less like the vigorous writer she is than a bright 15-year-old trying to Express her Individuality. She also lapses into fashionable prejudice on occasion; only a few pages away from a beautiful, complex tribute to her mother entitled ''Late,'' Ponsot manages to write about men as if they were all modeled on the Great Santini. ''Most males,'' she writes, behave ''as if they confuse / Marking with marring; as if. . . / they smash what they can't use.'' What's more, ''these July boys & men'' are ''trained not to listen for what their lives mean / But to beat.'' It's certainly possible, and maybe even honorable, for a poet to challenge the ethos of power and competition that pervades contemporary life, but it would be nice if Ponsot could do it without using cliches about what brutes guys are. It seems petty to criticize Ponsot for these mistakes, though, because they are the necessary consequence of her ambitious style: if you're going to be vivid, sometimes you're going to be vividly wrong. What's surprising is how often she's right. Ponsot's average work is good, and her strongest work -- the work she should be judged by -- is terrific. Her villanelle ''Northampton Style'' begins: Evening falls. Someone's playing a dulcimer Northampton-style, on the porch out back. Its voice touches and parts the air of summer, as if it swam to time us down a river where we dive and leave a single track as evening falls. Someone's playing a dulcimer that lets us wash our mix of dreams together. Ponsot's signature quirkiness is here (''swam to time''), but matched to a quieter, more stately tone. Although the poem risks a cliche mood of bittersweet reflection (contemporary poetry's default mode), Ponsot's lines stand out for their craftsmanship. The hard rhyme (''back,'' ''track'') prevents the poem from becoming euphonious, and prepares us for a shift toward a more awkward subject -- mortality -- later in the poem. Here's how Ponsot makes that move: ''A small breeze rises and the leaves stir / as uneasy as we, while the woods go black; / its voice touches and parts the air of summer / and lets darkness enter us; our strings go slack / though the player keeps up his plangent attack. / Evening falls. Someone's playing a dulcimer; / its voice touches and parts the air of summer.'' Will this undermine global capitalism or take the pulse of Schrodinger's cat? No, but the challenges the poem takes on are real, and the poet makes her work in overcoming them seem natural. That's an accomplishment. And accomplishments like this, carried over eight decades, five books and a puzzling absence from contemporary anthologies -- all in the face of book sales that are dwarfed by the ghostwritten autobiographies of pop stars -- are what American art is all about. That may sound like bleak news for artists, but there are advantages to writing poetry with the exhilarating integrity that Marie Ponsot demonstrates in this new book. For one thing, long after the last episode of ''The West Wing'' has vanished, someone might read one of her poems, think, ''Now that is cool,'' and afterward imagine himself in terms conceived partly through Ponsot's writing. Of course, at that point, many of us may no longer be alive. Which, when you think about it, is just another reason to hate poetry. --------------------- David Orr is a writer and a lawyer in the New York office of Simpson, Thacher & Bartlett. From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 24 17:48:40 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:48:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Statistical query References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost><002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> <01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001b01c54917$636bece0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> This is the only poetry list I'm on. I was on Joe Duemer's Poetry and Poetics list while it was active, and was on WomPo for a while. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Statistical query >> How many (if any) people on this list are on either British Poetry or >> poetryetc? > >> (Having said that, I recognise that at least two members of this list >> once >> were but are no longer -- is this significant?) > > I've never been on either. Looks like I'm still on this one, which is a > relief, because I'm gearing up to post burstnorm poems that I think > accessible and see what the reaction to them is. I'm also on a list > devoted to the Shakespeare authorship question where I'm sometimes much > more impolite to anti-Stratfordians as I am to my opponents here. And, as > Robin has said, I post occasionally to Shaksper, where I'm sometimes > sarcastic but not very impolite, I don't think. > > >> I ask this as these are, to my mind, the two main "UK" lists -- not >> (necessarily) because they have more Brits than non-Brit members but >> because >> the tone and focus tend to be "British". >> >> (This is more true of britpo than petc but -- part of why I'm asking -- >> is >> that there's a large membership overlap between those two lists.) >> >> ... but there doesn't seem to be an (obvious) overlap between either of >> those two and NP. >> >> Nothing to do with poetry really, sheer curiosity on my part. >> >> I suppose tangentially (and equally irrelevantly) there's the question of >> who haunts both poetry and academic lists? I know that both Bob Grumman >> and >> I are on SHAKSPER, but beyond that ... > >> And to continue this, does anyone other than me have a problem with >> adjusting their idiom of discourse between UK/US lists and >> poetry/academic >> lists? > >> And *between* academic lists, where the verbal dress code can differ >> quite >> drastically. SHAKSPER (as at least Bob will know) has a "British/loose" >> code, Ficino is quite narrowly (and comfortingly, as at least you know >> where >> you are) academic. The extreme is Milton-L, which is both American code >> and >> deeply hierarchical, being reminiscent of nothing so much as a pack of >> noyaux gorillas. > > Gee, too bad I'm not too interested in Milton! > >> Slow thoughts on a sunny Sunday afternoon. >> >> Robin > > Slow replies after a day I actually got some work done. Scanned in poems > from something like 20 poets I think influenced by Cummings, just about > none of whom posters to New-Poetry will have heard of. Creeley was one, > but I'm using just one poem by him. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 24 12:36:47 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 12:36:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Groundbreaking Poetry In-Reply-To: <00f501c548e1$aad3dce0$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <426B92DF.19504.CB216A@localhost> On 24 Apr 2005 at 10:54, Bob Grumman wrote: > So what would you call a highly original but failed work of art that > gave some artist ideas for a much better one?< It's certainly not "groundbreaking" because the metaphor of "groundbreaking" hasn't got to do with failure. One doesn't break ground until one has a pretty good idea what one is going to plant or build. Of course, a crop may fail or a building fall down, but the point of groundbreaking is to plant a crop or build a building, not merely to open up the ground for no reason other than that it is there unopened. The point is not to call something that is not generative "groundbreaking", though, since that metaphor is so intimately associated with deliberately preparing for planting or building. The metaphor of "groundbreaking" in art depends on the groundbreaking work's ability to provide "fertile ground for a new crop" or "a good foundation for a new building". > Examples would be a lot > of the dada stuff, which by most standards was more original...<< But "more original" makes no sense. Something is original or not but how is something "more original"? It can't be "more original" any more than something can be "more unique". It's either unique or it's not; it's either original or it's not. > It seems to have been established that at New-Poetry, poetry is taken > to be lineated texts. But it doesn't really matter since it should > also be assumed that groundbreaking poetry is poetry, whatever we mean > by that, which does x, y, z.< The question is whether by "poetry" one means "anything anyone claims is poetry", or whether by "poetry" you mean "the good stuff that is better than the mass of anything anyone claims is poetry", or some other definition. Only after we can agree what we mean by "poetry" can we reasonably explain what is meant by "groundbreaking poetry". Further, if a failed experiment is "more original" or "groundbreaking", what do you call a successful experiment? "More more original"? "Really groundbreaking"? Marcus From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Apr 24 18:04:55 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:04:55 +0100 Subject: cimmings -- WAS Re: [New-Poetry] Statistical query References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost><002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> <01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <012a01c54919$a661e250$fb032cd9@Robin> > Scanned in poems > from something like 20 poets I think influenced by Cummings, just about none > of whom posters to New-Poetry will have heard of. Creeley was one, but I'm > using just one poem by him. Could you give us a role-call of names just to see, Bob? I'm possibly the worst person on the list to judge, since being on this side of the Pond, my radar horizon for American poetry is set pretty low. My off-the-cuff uneducated guess would be that the biggest influence of cummings on British poetry would have been on Concrete poetry. Maybe also on some language (Brit urban style) poetry -- Ian Hamilton Finlay's +Glasgow Beasts an a Burd ...+, say, perhaps even Tom Leonard. (Though while the latter admits to an influence from William Carlos Williams, I don't think he anywhere mentions cummings.) Incidentally, I grew up with the convention that you always spelled cummings' name lower case -- has this shifted? Robin From tad at opus40.org Sun Apr 24 19:42:43 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:42:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham, Superstar Message-ID: <000a01c54927$5247da40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> David Orr will be doing a regular feature on poetry for the NY TImes book review, every four weeks or so. His first was today, on Jorie Graham. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/24/books/review/24ORRL.html? It'll be interesting to see how the series develops. In this one, he spends a little too much time talking about the state of poetry, and not enough on Jorie. But I like Orr. I'm probably not the person you want to listen to, because I like Logan and Helen, too. I like it that people engage poetry seriously, and write for a larger audience. That probably makes me an enemy of poetry, but there you are. I think my poetry portraits are a lot better than the caricature of Jorie in the Times. Tad Richards www.opus40.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobheff at esatclear.ie Sun Apr 24 21:08:27 2005 From: bobheff at esatclear.ie (Robert Heffernan) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 02:08:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Statistical query In-Reply-To: <002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost> <002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <20050425020827.6326fd85@Arwen> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:22:06 +0100 "Robin Hamilton" wrote: > How many (if any) people on this list are on either British Poetry or > poetryetc? I am on both. > (Having said that, I recognise that at least two members of this list once > were but are no longer -- is this significant?) > > I ask this as these are, to my mind, the two main "UK" lists -- not > (necessarily) because they have more Brits than non-Brit members but because > the tone and focus tend to be "British". I was not aware that poetry&c was particularly British, but then perhaps I was not paying close enough attention. > (This is more true of britpo than petc but -- part of why I'm asking -- is > that there's a large membership overlap between those two lists.) Well, I am part of that I suppose. > ... but there doesn't seem to be an (obvious) overlap between either of > those two and NP. I would appear to be part of that too. > Nothing to do with poetry really, sheer curiosity on my part. > > I suppose tangentially (and equally irrelevantly) there's the question of > who haunts both poetry and academic lists? I know that both Bob Grumman and > I are on SHAKSPER, but beyond that ... I'm not, although this is a volume issue more than anything else. Even with the few lists I am on, I have been reduced to readings only those posts whose titles interest me. > And to continue this, does anyone other than me have a problem with > adjusting their idiom of discourse between UK/US lists and poetry/academic > lists? Not really. > And *between* academic lists, where the verbal dress code can differ quite > drastically. SHAKSPER (as at least Bob will know) has a "British/loose" > code, Ficino is quite narrowly (and comfortingly, as at least you know where > you are) academic. The extreme is Milton-L, which is both American code and > deeply hierarchical, being reminiscent of nothing so much as a pack of > noyaux gorillas. n/a bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 20:14:09 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:14:09 -0400 Subject: cimmings -- WAS Re: [New-Poetry] Statistical query References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost><002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin><01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <012a01c54919$a661e250$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <022501c5492b$b3b06370$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Could you give us a role-call of names just to see, Bob? Eventually. I hope to post poems by many, too. I don't want to get into any discussions of them (as a group) till I have my presentation closer to finished. > I'm possibly the worst person on the list to judge, since being on this > side > of the Pond, my radar horizon for American poetry is set pretty low. It's North American, actually. Here's a name some should know: bp Nichol. > My off-the-cuff uneducated guess would be that the biggest influence of > cummings on British poetry would have been on Concrete poetry. Maybe also > on some language (Brit urban style) poetry -- Ian Hamilton Finlay's > +Glasgow > Beasts an a Burd ...+, say, perhaps even Tom Leonard. (Though while the > latter admits to an influence from William Carlos Williams, I don't think > he > anywhere mentions cummings.) I don't know Tom Leonard. > Incidentally, I grew up with the convention that you always spelled > cummings' name lower case -- has this shifted? > > Robin The Cummings authorities are pretty sure it was upper case. He signed it that way and in one letter said something to the effect that it was upper case. His last wife is on record as being for upper case. For me, the lower case would seem collectivist, and he was a staunch individualist. The "cummings" seemed to be a Madison Avenue invention, though not implausible since he did use lower case i's through his poems. While thinking about Cummings this time around, I've begun wondering where he stands with respect to what I call contragenteel poetry of the kind Bukowski finally dominated. Was he first in that, too--I mean with rowdy, sometimes obscene, ungrammatical but serious poetry? If not, who was? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 20:22:04 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:22:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham, Superstar References: <000a01c54927$5247da40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <023901c5492c$cefa8380$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I want critics to engage poetry seriously and write for a larger audience. That's what I try to do. But I want them to at least indicate that there's poetry outside of Wilshberia. I think I don't like Orr for other reasons but can't remember. All I know is that I know I've read him before and been annoyed by what he said. Vendler is competent but extremely limited, for me. I often like Logan, and am in favor of the way he attacks poets he doesn't like--even when I think he's wrong. But he ignores most burstnorm poetry and ignorantly belittles the small amount of it he knows of. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 24 21:04:43 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:04:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem-a-day In-Reply-To: <01e701c54917$4261d370$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/24/05 4:47 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > stolen from Tia Ballantine > poem-a-day-service. Details on this service, Bob? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 21:29:51 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:29:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry (New?) Message-ID: <731bb17a05042418296a6b823@mail.gmail.com> http://www.ubu.com/historical/early/early01.html http://www.ubu.com/papers/greene.html A couple of interesting links about visual poetry--or, the history thereof. Bob, how do you see the history of visual poetry? Certainly, it's nothing new--nothing new at all, actually. I wonder how someone who sees visual poetry as "groundbreaking" and "using new techniques" responds to the documented history of concrete verse. (Note: I don't use the scare quotes pejoratively. I thik that I'm quoting you). >From Roland Greene's "The Concrete Historical": "If meanings can be distributed, "material poetry" effectively names the entire historical and cultural continuum, and claims much writingfor instance, large swatches of an ostensibly conventional text such as Shakespeare's Sonnetsthat goes under no other experimental rubric. "Concrete poetry," a term with a certain chronological and multinational import, is virtually a brand or trademark for the program it represents in post-modern literature, which Augusto de Campos relates elsewhere in this Bulletin. "Pattern poetry" is a deliberately vague, appreciative term for several practices that go by a number of more technical titles, such as technopaegnion and calligram. The general phenomenon of material poetry is one of the least investigated currents in European and American literatures, while these relatively restricted terms have been the property of critical subcultures that hardly communicate with the study of poetry at large." Greene is a bit snooty here about taxonomy, as well, though I think that such labels are useful. Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 24 21:49:30 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:49:30 -0400 Subject: cimmings -- WAS Re: [New-Poetry] Statistical query In-Reply-To: <022501c5492b$b3b06370$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <426C146A.3085.7CA55C@localhost> On 24 Apr 2005 at 20:14, Bob Grumman wrote: > While thinking about Cummings this time around, I've begun wondering > where he stands with respect to what I call contragenteel poetry of > the kind Bukowski finally dominated. Was he first in that, too--I > mean with rowdy, sometimes obscene, ungrammatical but serious poetry? > If not, who was? Sappho? Aristophanes? Martial? Catullus? Villon? How many thousands of years do you want to go back? Or do you mean just the paltry few years of English? Marcus From mbyrne at risd.edu Sun Apr 24 21:55:05 2005 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:55:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry (New?) Message-ID: Dear Jeff, Your question is probably specifically for Bob but I have one point to make, and that is that what is new about visual poetry is the term itself. Just as the term "concrete" applies principally to Brazilian/European/American work in the 1950s/1960s (and shares an affiliation with concrete art), the term "visual poetry" is historically specific to the later twentieth and early twenty-first century. One of the interesting and confusing things about the field is the range of terms, e.g., technopaegnia (I hope this plural is grammatical), carmina quadrata, pattern poetry, calligrammes, concrete poetry, visual poetry, material poetry, vispo, etc. What people have tended to do is attempt to ground the terms historically, e.g., Dick Higgins applies the term "pattern poetry" only to work prior to the twentieth century. "Calligramme" would be most likely to be used in relation to Apollinaire, although it could be argued that Apollinaire made pattern poetry, except the leading authority on pattern poetry (Dick Higgins) established a cut-off at 1900! Certainly I would not apply the term "concrete poetry" to work before the mid-twentieth century. I think Roland Greene, as far as I remember , is respectful of this historical specificity while mapping traditions of word/image in western poetics. In fact a lot of the scholarship relates to an unease relating to terminology. It's one of the interesting things about the field, though not the most interesting, for me. For your information, I would understand visual poetry as a fairly contemporary term, and one hospitable to digital media. Mairead Mair?ad Byrne Assistant Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design Providence, RI 02903 www.wildhoneypress.com www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> Jeff Newberry 04/24/05 9:29 PM >>> http://www.ubu.com/historical/early/early01.html http://www.ubu.com/papers/greene.html A couple of interesting links about visual poetry--or, the history thereof. Bob, how do you see the history of visual poetry? Certainly, it's nothing new--nothing new at all, actually. I wonder how someone who sees visual poetry as "groundbreaking" and "using new techniques" responds to the documented history of concrete verse. (Note: I don't use the scare quotes pejoratively. I thik that I'm quoting you). >From Roland Greene's "The Concrete Historical": "If meanings can be distributed, "material poetry" effectively names the entire historical and cultural continuum, and claims much writingfor instance, large swatches of an ostensibly conventional text such as Shakespeare's Sonnetsthat goes under no other experimental rubric. "Concrete poetry," a term with a certain chronological and multinational import, is virtually a brand or trademark for the program it represents in post-modern literature, which Augusto de Campos relates elsewhere in this Bulletin. "Pattern poetry" is a deliberately vague, appreciative term for several practices that go by a number of more technical titles, such as technopaegnion and calligram. The general phenomenon of material poetry is one of the least investigated currents in European and American literatures, while these relatively restricted terms have been the property of critical subcultures that hardly communicate with the study of poetry at large." Greene is a bit snooty here about taxonomy, as well, though I think that such labels are useful. Thoughts? Jeff Newberry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 24 22:13:51 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:13:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contragenteel In-Reply-To: <426C146A.3085.7CA55C@localhost> Message-ID: On 24 Apr 2005 at 20:14, Bob Grumman wrote: > While thinking about Cummings this time around, I've begun wondering > where he stands with respect to what I call contragenteel poetry of > the kind Bukowski finally dominated. Was he first in that, too--I > mean with rowdy, sometimes obscene, ungrammatical but serious poetry? > If not, who was? on 4/24/05 8:49 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > Sappho? Aristophanes? Martial? Catullus? Villon? How many thousands > of years do you want to go back? Or do you mean just the paltry few > years of English? > > Marcus Yeah, whatever his merits or demerits, Bukowski wasn't exactly the first to run around this particular track. Had he been born 300 years earlier, I'm sure he would have been churning out stuff like the following. I'm not sure his diction was usually so vulgar, though. . . . (I do like the term "contragenteel," in any case.) Much wine had passed, with grave discourse Of who fucks who, and who does worse (Such as you usually do hear >From those that diet at the Bear), When I, who still take care to see Drunkenness relieved by lechery, Went out into St. James's Park To cool my head and fire my heart. But though St. James has th' honor on 't, 'Tis consecrate to prick and cunt. There, by a most incestuous birth, Strange woods spring from the teeming earth; For they relate how heretofore, When ancient Pict behan to whore, Deluded of his assignation (Jilting, it seems, was then in fashion), Poor pensive lover, in this place Would frig upon his mother's face; Whence rows of mandrakes tall did rise Whose lewd tops fucked the very skies. --John Wilmot. fr. "A Ramble in St. James Park" ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 22:46:55 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:46:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem-a-day References: Message-ID: <029601c54941$0b9e6900$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > on 4/24/05 4:47 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > >> stolen from Tia Ballantine >> poem-a-day-service. > > > Details on this service, Bob? I'll try to find out, David. I just get them. Probably not every day, but pretty regularly. Tia is in Hawaii. For months I thought she was just someone very nicely posting poems and news regularly to New-Poetry. Then I commented on a few to New-Poetry and realized my mistake. She posts a wide range of poems, including many pre-20th-century standards. CWUHM-L at HAWAII.EDU is the e.mail address. You might write Tia asking about the service. She and I are on good terms, so you can mention my name. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 23:04:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:04:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry (New?) References: <731bb17a05042418296a6b823@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02a801c54943$75c8af50$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > http://www.ubu.com/historical/early/early01.html > > http://www.ubu.com/papers/greene.html > > A couple of interesting links about visual poetry--or, the history > thereof. > Bob, how do you see the history of visual poetry? Certainly, it's > nothing new--nothing new at all, actually. I wonder how someone who > sees visual poetry as "groundbreaking" and "using new techniques" > responds to the documented history of concrete verse. (Note: I don't > use the scare quotes pejoratively. I think that I'm quoting you). Visual poetry isn't new--except compared with formal poetry. Contemporary visual poets are doing a lot of new things, though. What is is mostly is otherstream--the opposite of knownstream, by which I mean that its practitioners use poetic tools not in widespread use. >>From Roland Greene's "The Concrete Historical": > > "If meanings can be distributed, "material poetry" effectively names > the entire historical and cultural continuum, and claims much > writingfor instance, large swatches of an ostensibly conventional text > such as Shakespeare's Sonnetsthat goes under no other experimental > rubric. "Concrete poetry," a term with a certain chronological and > multinational import, is virtually a brand or trademark for the > program it represents in post-modern literature, which Augusto de > Campos relates elsewhere in this Bulletin. "Pattern poetry" is a > deliberately vague, appreciative term for several practices that go by > a number of more technical titles, such as technopaegnion and > calligram. The general phenomenon of material poetry is one of the > least investigated currents in European and American literatures, > while these relatively restricted terms have been the property of > critical subcultures that hardly communicate with the study of poetry > at large." > Greene is a bit snooty here about taxonomy, as well, though I think > that such labels are useful. > > Thoughts? > Jeff Newberry It will amuse you to know that I think the folks at UBU ARE ENEMIES OF VISUAL POETRY!!!!! Actually, there's an amusing unknown war going on between many of the visual poets in my "gang" and late-comers to visual poetry connected with the language poets and centered at SUNY, Buffalo--with my friend Mike Basinski head librarian at SUNY, Buffalo, and trying to keep friends with both sides. I'll be writing about one of his poems here soon, I hope. Our side feels the UBU site ignores us. I guess their side thinks the same of us. The UBU site does have quite a bit of good stuff, but the omissions are grave. All of which is beside the point, but kind of interesting, I think. My take on the history of visual poetry is pretty standard--scattered pattern poets like George Herbert, but nothing that took hold until Mallarme, who was only borderline visio-poetic, and then Apollinaire, who was the first true serious modern visual poet, followed by Cummings--with minor figures here and there, and Kenneth Patchen, whom many of my friends in visual poetry consider as important as Cummings but whom I'm not that taken by. Then came the concrete poets who led, in the sixties to an American branch that Ronald Johnson, Aram Saroyan, Emmett Williams and a few others were important in; they tailed off but another generation of sorts came in whose members I know. I got in so late, that I consider myself a member of the NEXT generation though I'm older than many in the previous generation, and even of one of two in the Johnson generation. There's now a flourishing generation after the one I'm in that's doing things I'm not keeping up with in animated poetry, and hypertext. Buy Burt Kimmelman's Facts on File Companion to Contemporary American Poetry and read my entry on visual poetry. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 24 23:10:57 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:10:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contragenteel References: Message-ID: <02d701c54944$671bb500$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 24 Apr 2005 at 20:14, Bob Grumman wrote: >> While thinking about Cummings this time around, I've begun wondering >> where he stands with respect to what I call contragenteel poetry of >> the kind Bukowski finally dominated. Was he first in that, too--I >> mean with rowdy, sometimes obscene, ungrammatical but serious poetry? >> If not, who was? > > on 4/24/05 8:49 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > >> Sappho? Aristophanes? Martial? Catullus? Villon? How many thousands >> of years do you want to go back? Or do you mean just the paltry few >> years of English? >> >> Marcus > > > Yeah, whatever his merits or demerits, Bukowski wasn't exactly the first > to > run around this particular track. Had he been born 300 years earlier, I'm > sure he would have been churning out stuff like the following. I'm not > sure > his diction was usually so vulgar, though. . . . > > (I do like the term "contragenteel," in any case.) > > > Much wine had passed, with grave discourse > Of who fucks who, and who does worse > (Such as you usually do hear >>From those that diet at the Bear), > When I, who still take care to see > Drunkenness relieved by lechery, > Went out into St. James's Park > To cool my head and fire my heart. > But though St. James has th' honor on 't, > 'Tis consecrate to prick and cunt. > There, by a most incestuous birth, > Strange woods spring from the teeming earth; > For they relate how heretofore, > When ancient Pict behan to whore, > Deluded of his assignation > (Jilting, it seems, was then in fashion), > Poor pensive lover, in this place > Would frig upon his mother's face; > Whence rows of mandrakes tall did rise > Whose lewd tops fucked the very skies. > > --John Wilmot. fr. "A Ramble in St. James Park" Good, I didn't know this one. Also, I was not thinking too hard, for Byron would qualify. On the other hand, there is a distinct and fairly large school for this kind of poetry that begain last century, as far as I can tell. Note, too, that Wilmot's poem is refined in many ways. --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 25 01:24:21 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 01:24:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] U.S. Military Unveils Strategy To Cut The Birth Rate Among Muslim Women In Long Range Effort To Defeat Iraqi Insurgency: In-Reply-To: <02d701c54944$671bb500$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <02d701c54944$671bb500$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <426C7F05.5000506@ix.netcom.com> */ The Assassinated Press /* After U.S. Threatens Attack, UN Fires Afghan Rights Monitor: "We Are Going To Act With Impunity Anyway. We Just Wanted The Prick To Shut The Fuck Up," Rumsfeld Tells Reader's Digest: "World body kneels to American pressure to eliminate post of independent human rights expert who has criticized U.S. military's violations.": U.S. Guns Down Associated Press Cameraman, Murder of Marla Ruzicka Slips Down Memory Hole: U.S. Military Unveils Strategy To Cut The Birth Rate Among Muslim Women In Long Range Effort To Defeat Iraqi Insurgency: U.S. Poll: Majority In Red States Watch 'Wheel Of Fortune.' Majority In Blue States Watch 'Jeopardy.' Pols, Pundits And Journalists Watch 'The Price Is Right.': American Foreign Policy---The Proctology Meets The Cognitive Sciences. BY JAMMY RUMPERROOM Assassinated Press Staff Correspondent April 23, 2005 http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ ISLAMISBAD, Pakistan -- Under U.S. threats of shelling of U.N. headquarters in downtown New York, the United Nations this week eliminated the job of its top investigator on human rights in Afghanistan after the official criticized violations by U.S. forces in the country. "It was either they eliminated the job or we were going to eliminate the employee and his place of employment," said Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill. "We don't want some prick watching over our shoulder as we go about our business. He doesn't understand U.S. priorities and interests in the region any more than I do. He doesn't understand why we gotta pop some of these people. Its cultural." When asked about the wisdom of training tank cannons and dropping 500 pound bombs in the heart of New York City, McNeill shrugged and said, "We do that kind of shit everyday." American diplomats at a meeting in Geneva of the UN Commission on Human Rights forced the group to end the mandate of Cherif Bassiouni as the United Nations' "independent expert on human rights in Afghanistan." Bassiouni has repeatedly criticized the U.S. military for detaining prisoners without trial, summary executions, looting, rape, censorship of the press and public opinion, targeting unsympathetic journalists for what is jokingly called "censorship with extreme prejudice", fostering the heroin trade for allies of U.S. intelligence, bribery, fraud and for barring almost all human rights monitors from its prisons in the country. Washington moved to scrap Bassiouni and/or his post partly because the human rights situation in Afghanistan is no longer troubling enough to require it, said a U.S. official who asked not to be named. "Frankly, we never found any of the shit we did "troubling." That's for bleeding heart sissies like Bassiouni and the hippies back on North Capitol Street and Dupont Circle. We're trained to take orders and kill and that's the way our betters like it." Bassiouni's ouster came amid other acrimony as the commission's annual meeting closed Friday. UN human rights high commissioner Louise Arbour derided as "not credible" the commission's final report, which named only Belarus, France, Cuba, Myanmar, Freedonia and North Korea as grievous violators of human rights. "I mean. Can't we look at who's doing the fuckin' killing for once? Can't we look at who invaded who? Or do I have to walk around thinking if Cheney's hemorroids bleed, we need a team of cognitive scientists to tell us what the fuck is going on? Meanwhile, in Baghdada, Mohammed Ibrahim, a photographer working for The Associated Press, was released Sunday by the U.S. military, which had held him after the U.S. military had gunned down a television cameraman working for The AP. Ibrahim was wounded when gunfire broke out after an explosion Saturday in the northern city of Mosul. Saleh Ibrahim, a television cameraman working for The Associated Press, was murdered in the same incident. The two men were brothers-in-law. Mohammed Ibrahim said U.S. forces kidnapped him and his brother, Wamidh, who contributes to European Pressphoto Agency, from the hospital hours after the shooting and released them after nearly 24 hours in detention in which it was made clear the U.S. would kill them because "They was colored guys that looked like they would say good things about the Iraqis or talk about our killing and stuff," said Sergeant Offal Tripe of House of Glass, Louisiana. A U.S. military official, who would not allow the use of his name, said the two men "were just a couple of niggers caught up in the sweep after the situation as far as he and Don Rumsfeld were concerned." Meanwhile, Bassiouni, a Chicago-based law professor, a fact which should not be held against him, repeated the criticisms in a 24-page report presented at the meeting. He noted reports that "estimate that over 1,000 individuals have been detained and the thousands 'detained' before at Gitmo, Abu Graib, the your fuckin' pick were just part of a huge COPS episode Afghanistan or Iraq for a bunch of fat assed victimized American patrol chum." The U.S. official accused Bassiouni of grandstanding "to bolster his resume," as though the U.S. is gonna let that fucker do anything more than manage a Jiffy Lube in Butte now that he's spoken the truth, said his departure would give a greater role to the Afghan government's rights commission a wholly owned subsidiary of the U.S. Sate Department. As way of proof the Afghan commission has cited U.S. forces as the frequent obstacle to its work. Afghan officials say they have trouble even getting appointments with U.S. officers to discuss human rights cases. Also, U.S. forces bar the Afghan commission from visiting their prisons. They admit only the International Committee of the Red Cross, and hide prisoners from them. "We differ with the Afghani's on what constitutes a human being. We use the American Bar Association standards. We fuckin' went to bars from Boca Rotan to Spokane, from Bangor to Galveston and asked every white pie-faced puke we could arouse to consciousness his definition of what he considered a human bean, sliced off the self-pity like suds on a beer, and came up with a profile that was primarily Nazi death camp guard. This is at odds with Mr. Bassiouni's definition." Human rights advocates say the U.S. policies seem to come primarily from the military rather than the State Department. The Pentagon has withheld the results of its own investigation into human rights violations at its bases in Afghanistan, despite an initial promise to reveal them. In countries with human rights problems as deep as Afghanistan's, "the commission normally passes a resolution to condemn the abuses and names a 'special rapporteur' to keep investigating them," said Brad Adams, Asia director of the monitoring group Human Rights Watch. "But in Afghanistan, the U.S. has not wanted these mechanisms to come into play..."because, come on 'because'---either Adams gave an answer the AP wouldn't publish or like most of these NGOs, he pussied out lest the State Department impugn his motives and destroy his credibility e.g. his funding. Last year, Washington pressed the UN body to downgrade the post of rapporteur on Afghanistan to the lesser status of "independent expert." Now, the United Nations' monitoring of human rights in Afghanistan will fall to Arbour, whose global responsibilities "won't leave her time to focus on Afghanistan and make the visits to Kabul," Adams said. So's the 'good guys' can torture and kill with impunity---American Foreign Policy---Where Proctology Meets Cognitive Science. > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 25 04:31:31 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:31:31 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham, Superstar References: <000a01c54927$5247da40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <009101c54971$2f9fc8a0$cfaf3452@ANNY> Ah your Jorie Graham is superb! That Denise Duhamel seems just out of some 1700 sort of Frankenstein tragedy - hunted by ghosts all around, Antler ends up being a pirate, Sonia Sanchez high on potato salad, Jimmy Santiago Baca the father of the Banker, Rukeyser has the face I would give to Balzac, Holy Louise Gluck is impeccable, Paul Goodman could be used as the Frog in the related tale, and Beth Ann Fennelly is the wife of the pirate. What an interesting m?lange. Take care, a national holiday here, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ----- Original Message ----- From: The Old Mole To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 1:42 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham, Superstar David Orr will be doing a regular feature on poetry for the NY TImes book review, every four weeks or so. His first was today, on Jorie Graham. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/24/books/review/24ORRL.html? It'll be interesting to see how the series develops. In this one, he spends a little too much time talking about the state of poetry, and not enough on Jorie. But I like Orr. I'm probably not the person you want to listen to, because I like Logan and Helen, too. I like it that people engage poetry seriously, and write for a larger audience. That probably makes me an enemy of poetry, but there you are. I think my poetry portraits are a lot better than the caricature of Jorie in the Times. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 06:22:16 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 06:22:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry (New?) References: Message-ID: <000601c54980$a8fece80$7eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> It's true that the name changed. The generation after concrete poetry had problems, I understand, with the politics of the founders of concrete poetry. Also with the attempts of the latter to too rigidly define the art--confining it, for example, to what could be done visually with texts only. Many in that generation believe visual poetry is distinct from concrete poetry. Later people in the field, though, see the sanity of having some blanket term for all poetry that makes significant use of visual elements, and "visual poetry" is often the term used. In fact, most using the term want to apply it is loosely as those who want to term anything its maker calls "poetry" poetry. I'm a Marcus in the field, one of the few who believes "visual poetry" should apply only to artworks with semantically-meaningful words or near-words in it. The general feeling is that anything with textual elements qualifies. Some--my friend Scott Helmes whose work I consider major, for instance--think an artwork that merely seems language-related should qualify. Scott makes collages I think gorgeous out of cut-outs, usually rectangular, that he arranges in lines to suggest, for him, poems. Even if none of of the cut-outs has a hint of text in it, he argues that these works are visual poems. My argument is that poems have also been thought to be verbal, so something not explicitly verbal should not be called a visual poem. Also that visual artists have been making paintings for a century or so in which textual elements are prominent--Paul Klee and Stuart Davis, for instance--yet no critics speak of them as visual poets. --Bob G. > Dear Jeff, > > Your question is probably specifically for Bob but I have one point to > make, and that is that what is new about visual poetry is the term itself. > Just as the term "concrete" applies principally to > Brazilian/European/American work in the 1950s/1960s (and shares an > affiliation with concrete art), the term "visual poetry" is > historically specific to the later twentieth and early twenty-first > century. One of the interesting and confusing things about the field is > the range of terms, e.g., technopaegnia (I hope this plural is > grammatical), carmina quadrata, pattern poetry, > calligrammes, concrete poetry, visual poetry, material poetry, vispo, etc. > What people have tended to do is attempt to ground the terms historically, > e.g., > Dick Higgins applies the term "pattern poetry" only to work prior to the > twentieth century. "Calligramme" would be most likely to be used in > relation to Apollinaire, although it could be argued that Apollinaire made > pattern poetry, except the leading authority on pattern poetry (Dick > Higgins) established a cut-off at 1900! Certainly I would not apply the > term "concrete poetry" to work before the mid-twentieth century. I think > Roland Greene, as far as I remember , is respectful of this historical > specificity while mapping traditions of word/image in western poetics. In > fact a lot of the scholarship relates to an unease relating to > terminology. It's one of the interesting things about the field, though > not the most interesting, for me. For your information, I would > understand visual poetry as a fairly contemporary term, and one hospitable > to digital media. > Mairead > > > > Mair?ad Byrne > Assistant Professor of English > Rhode Island School of Design > Providence, RI 02903 > www.wildhoneypress.com > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>>> Jeff Newberry 04/24/05 9:29 PM >>> > http://www.ubu.com/historical/early/early01.html > > http://www.ubu.com/papers/greene.html > > A couple of interesting links about visual poetry--or, the history > thereof. > > Bob, how do you see the history of visual poetry? Certainly, it's > nothing new--nothing new at all, actually. I wonder how someone who > sees visual poetry as "groundbreaking" and "using new techniques" > responds to the documented history of concrete verse. (Note: I don't > use the scare quotes pejoratively. I thik that I'm quoting you). > >>From Roland Greene's "The Concrete Historical": > > "If meanings can be distributed, "material poetry" effectively names > the entire historical and cultural continuum, and claims much > writingfor instance, large swatches of an ostensibly conventional text > such as Shakespeare's Sonnetsthat goes under no other experimental > rubric. "Concrete poetry," a term with a certain chronological and > multinational import, is virtually a brand or trademark for the > program it represents in post-modern literature, which Augusto de > Campos relates elsewhere in this Bulletin. "Pattern poetry" is a > deliberately vague, appreciative term for several practices that go by > a number of more technical titles, such as technopaegnion and > calligram. The general phenomenon of material poetry is one of the > least investigated currents in European and American literatures, > while these relatively restricted terms have been the property of > critical subcultures that hardly communicate with the study of poetry > at large." > > Greene is a bit snooty here about taxonomy, as well, though I think > that such labels are useful. > > Thoughts? > > Jeff Newberry > > > > -- > "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. > It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz > > Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 06:45:57 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:45:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry (New?) References: <000601c54980$a8fece80$7eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <022901c54983$f7640d80$fb032cd9@Robin> Bob Grumman wrote: > It's true that the name changed. The generation after concrete poetry had > problems, I understand, with the politics of the founders of concrete > poetry. Also with the attempts of the latter to too rigidly define the > art--confining it, for example, to what could be done visually with texts > only. If it isn't generalising wildly from a lunaticly narrow base, I think there were elements in the Concrete poetry of the sixties which were inherently problematic. The two main Scottish exponents -- Ian Hamilton Finlay and Edwin Morgan -- left Concrete poetry in quite opposite directions, IHF to found Little Sparta as an art museum, and EM to feed elements of his concrete poetry into his line poetry. (See "The First Men On Mercury", for example.) It seemed as if in Scotland, Concrete poetry had a sell-buy date built into it. But that's a severely narrow platform for me to generalise from, and perhaps it was different in South America (and North). Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 07:02:46 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:02:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Leonard References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost><002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin><01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><012a01c54919$a661e250$fb032cd9@Robin> <022501c5492b$b3b06370$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <02a301c54986$50abd150$fb032cd9@Robin> > I don't know Tom Leonard. Here's one for you, Bob, which was recently posted on another list. (I've silently corrected a mis-transcription in the original.) Robin ******* Just ti Let Yi No (from the American of Carlos Williams) ahv drank the speshlz that wurrin thi frij n thit yiwurr probbli hodn back furthi pahrti awright they wur great thaht stroang thaht cawld -Tom Leonard (Intimate Voices p 37) From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 10:22:05 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425142205.80366.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> can you explain the idiom nut hatch stuff for those of us who are unenlightened or happen to come from a different part of the country from you? --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Are you working on a rival to the Da Vinci Cod? > > That's totally unfair, Peter. > > The Golden Dawn is stictly nut hatch stuff, but at > least it's vaguely > *documented* nut hatch. > > Unlike the Da Vinci Code ... > > Giordano the Man > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 25 10:30:02 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:30:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <20050425142205.80366.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> References: 6667 Message-ID: <426CC6AA.18526.DC1F39@localhost> Nut hatch: a safe protected place where nuts can hatch without bothering or competing with established saplings and trees. The looney bin. M On 25 Apr 2005 at 7:22, Paul Murphy wrote: > can you explain the idiom nut hatch stuff for those of > us who are unenlightened or happen to come from a > different part of the country from you? > --- Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > > Are you working on a rival to the Da Vinci Cod? > > > > That's totally unfair, Peter. > > > > The Golden Dawn is stictly nut hatch stuff, but at > > least it's vaguely > > *documented* nut hatch. > > > > Unlike the Da Vinci Code ... > > > > Giordano the Man > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 10:50:40 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:50:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425142205.80366.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <037601c549a6$267137c0$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Paul Murphy" > can you explain the idiom nut hatch stuff for those of > us who are unenlightened or happen to come from a > different part of the country from you? Lunatic asylum, Bedlamite Beggars, stuff like that. Sorry, thought it was obvious. By now (and it did have a raw edge when it was first coined in the fifties) for me it's pretty much history. {Not that the way that the Hag of Grantham dumped poor kids out of the hospitals and onto the streets in the UK in the seventies was a joke, but that's another issue.} But I think we have a problem of tone here -- some terms I use, I'll use casually as it seems to me they've lost their original nasty resonance. I wouldn't (though this is probably equally historical) use the term "booby hatch". Ever. Robin > --- Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > > Are you working on a rival to the Da Vinci Cod? > > > > That's totally unfair, Peter. > > > > The Golden Dawn is stictly nut hatch stuff, but at > > least it's vaguely > > *documented* nut hatch. > > > > Unlike the Da Vinci Code ... > > > > Giordano the Man From mandolin at mac.com Mon Apr 25 11:03:05 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:03:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <037601c549a6$267137c0$fb032cd9@Robin> References: <20050425142205.80366.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> <037601c549a6$267137c0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <2025675.1114441385666.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Monday, April 25, 2005, at 10:54AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >From: "Paul Murphy" > >> can you explain the idiom nut hatch stuff for those of >> us who are unenlightened or happen to come from a >> different part of the country from you? > >Lunatic asylum, Bedlamite Beggars, stuff like that. > >Sorry, thought it was obvious. > >By now (and it did have a raw edge when it was first coined in the fifties) >for me it's pretty much history. > > {Not that the way that the Hag of Grantham dumped poor kids out of >the hospitals and onto the streets in the UK in the seventies was a joke, >but that's another issue.} > >But I think we have a problem of tone here -- some terms I use, I'll use >casually as it seems to me they've lost their original nasty resonance. > >I wouldn't (though this is probably equally historical) use the term "booby >hatch". > >Ever. > I thought that had to do with the bird, and looking it up I found some confirmation here ( http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/552.html ), along with a derivation from the Spanish "boho" -- but nothing I'd have thought particularly objectionable except in the way "niggardly" caused a row in Washington DC a few years ago. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From tad at opus40.org Mon Apr 25 11:03:18 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:03:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem-a-day References: <029601c54941$0b9e6900$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003001c549a7$ece51790$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <<<< She and I are on good terms>>>> a first??? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poem-a-day >> on 4/24/05 4:47 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: >> >>> stolen from Tia Ballantine >>> poem-a-day-service. >> >> >> Details on this service, Bob? > > I'll try to find out, David. I just get them. Probably not every day, > but pretty regularly. Tia is in Hawaii. For months I thought she was > just someone very nicely posting poems and news regularly to New-Poetry. > Then I commented on a few to New-Poetry and realized my mistake. She posts > a wide range of poems, including many pre-20th-century standards. > > CWUHM-L at HAWAII.EDU is the e.mail address. You might write Tia asking > about the service. She and I are on good terms, so you can mention my > name. > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mandolin at mac.com Mon Apr 25 11:14:23 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:14:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <2025675.1114441385666.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <20050425142205.80366.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> <037601c549a6$267137c0$fb032cd9@Robin> <2025675.1114441385666.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <9460885.1114442063681.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Monday, April 25, 2005, at 11:07AM, Mike Snider wrote: > >On Monday, April 25, 2005, at 10:54AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >>From: "Paul Murphy" >> >>> can you explain the idiom nut hatch stuff for those of >>> us who are unenlightened or happen to come from a >>> different part of the country from you? >> >>Lunatic asylum, Bedlamite Beggars, stuff like that. >> >>Sorry, thought it was obvious. >> >>By now (and it did have a raw edge when it was first coined in the fifties) >>for me it's pretty much history. >> >> {Not that the way that the Hag of Grantham dumped poor kids out of >>the hospitals and onto the streets in the UK in the seventies was a joke, >>but that's another issue.} >> >>But I think we have a problem of tone here -- some terms I use, I'll use >>casually as it seems to me they've lost their original nasty resonance. >> >>I wouldn't (though this is probably equally historical) use the term "booby >>hatch". >> >>Ever. >> > >I thought that had to do with the bird, and looking it up I found some confirmation here ( http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/552.html ), along with a derivation from the Spanish "boho" -- but nothing I'd have thought particularly objectionable except in the way "niggardly" caused a row in Washington DC a few years ago. > > > Of course, for various reasons, they're not called insane asylums anymore in the US, and I think mental hospital is about gone, too, so obviously "nut hatch," "booby hatch," "funny farm," and all the rest are offensive to at least some people. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 11:15:56 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425151556.32635.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> the Hag of Grantham who she? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 11:29:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:29:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425151556.32635.qmail@web40425.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03a401c549ab$9483fb80$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Paul Murphy" > the Hag of Grantham > > who she? Dame Margaret Thatcher (a.k.a. the milk snatcher), ex-premier of the British Isles. Her dad was a grocer in Grantham, thus ... Robin (It wasn't desperately fun to spend a total of seventeen consecutive years under a Conservative government, let me tell you. Imagine Bush forever. R.) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 11:44:21 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:44:21 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425142205.80366.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com><037601c549a6$267137c0$fb032cd9@Robin><2025675.1114441385666.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <9460885.1114442063681.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <03aa01c549ad$a67c21d0$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Mike Snider" > >>I wouldn't (though this is probably equally historical) use the term "booby > >>hatch". > >> > >>Ever. > >> > > I thought that had to do with the bird, and looking it up I found some confirmation here ( http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/552.html ), along with a derivation from the Spanish "boho" -- but nothing I'd have thought particularly objectionable except in the way "niggardly" caused a row in Washington DC a few years ago. >> When they entered UK demotic, they were *both* [deliberately] offensive -- quite a different issue from "niggardly". The were both fifties UK colloquial terms for what was politely termed a "mental institution" (though let me tell you, as one who was, if you were inside, you frankly didn't give flying fuck at the moon what they were called). Strictly (and I'm not looking this up, so I may be wrong) the terms would be "nut hatch" and "booby hutch". Dunno what the current street term is, but. > Of course, for various reasons, they're not called insane asylums anymore in the US, and I think mental hospital is about gone, too, so obviously "nut hatch," "booby hatch," "funny farm," and all the rest are offensive to at least some people. Way it goes. Robin From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 11:51:01 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425155101.62134.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> sorry, you lost me there, of course. if it wasn't fun why did the British electorate choose her in the first place? wasn't privatisation a way of dumbing culture down too, it's often said. music and books made for 13 yr olds --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > the Hag of Grantham > > > > who she? > > Dame Margaret Thatcher (a.k.a. the milk snatcher), > ex-premier of the British > Isles. > > Her dad was a grocer in Grantham, thus ... > > Robin > > (It wasn't desperately fun to spend a total of > seventeen consecutive years > under a Conservative government, let me tell you. > > Imagine Bush forever. > > R.) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 11:59:13 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425155913.79596.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> weren't they euphemisms to cover up fear and embarrassment? I think a lot of the time that 'sane' people are embarrassed about mental illness (their own) so they like to predicate it onto a certain group who they can label 'insane'. Similarly, a decision was made at Wannsee in 1941, enlosung der Juden Frage, to predicate all the problems onto a certain group of people. That's what the insane are for? scapegoating --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Mike Snider" > > > >>I wouldn't (though this is probably equally > historical) use the term > "booby > > >>hatch". > > >> > > >>Ever. > > >> > > > > I thought that had to do with the bird, and looking > it up I found some > confirmation here ( > http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/552.html > ), along with > a derivation from the Spanish "boho" -- but nothing > I'd have thought > particularly objectionable except in the way > "niggardly" caused a row in > Washington DC a few years ago. > >> > > When they entered UK demotic, they were *both* > [deliberately] offensive -- > quite a different issue from "niggardly". > > The were both fifties UK colloquial terms for what > was politely termed a > "mental institution" (though let me tell you, as one > who was, if you were > inside, you frankly didn't give flying fuck at the > moon what they were > called). > > Strictly (and I'm not looking this up, so I may be > wrong) the terms would be > "nut hatch" and "booby hutch". > > Dunno what the current street term is, but. > > > Of course, for various reasons, they're not called > insane asylums anymore > in the US, and I think mental hospital is about > gone, too, so obviously > "nut hatch," "booby hatch," "funny farm," and all > the rest are offensive to > at least some people. > > Way it goes. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 12:20:35 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:20:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425155101.62134.qmail@web40428.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03e001c549b2$b66de970$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Paul Murphy" > sorry, you lost me there, of course. > if it wasn't fun why did the British electorate choose > her in the first place? Because they were greedy and stupid and short-sighted. > wasn't privatisation a way of dumbing culture down > too, it's often said. > music and books made for 13 yr olds Dumbing-down was later -- the Hag simply ran on a set of singularly self-interested economic policies. And as always, it was the rich what got the pleasure, it was the poor what got the blame. Robin (Hey, Paul, earlier I thought you were catching me up as I wasn't p-c, but was it as simple as that I was running Brit references that don't cross the Pond? R.) > --- Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > > > the Hag of Grantham > > > > > > who she? > > > > Dame Margaret Thatcher (a.k.a. the milk snatcher), > > ex-premier of the British > > Isles. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 25 12:30:44 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:30:44 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ah Blessed Virgin Mary Message-ID: <00bb01c549b4$21600910$34ad3252@ANNY> Ah Blessed Virgin Mary pray for me I live in you to sleep in God and die in God to praise His Holy Name O Blessed Virgin Mary ask Jesus to embed in me a sword of sorrow to kill my sin my sin that wounds His Wounds Tell Him I have eyes only for Heaven as I look to you Queen mirror of the heavenly court Philip Lamantia originally published in Wallace Berman's Semina ( no. 4, 1959), and it also appeared in Ekstasis >From http://www.poetryflash.org/archive.282.foley.html by Jack Foley ___________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 12:32:54 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:32:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425155913.79596.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03ea01c549b4$6ed54a20$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Paul Murphy" > weren't they euphemisms to cover up fear and > embarrassment? No, that's a different kettle of cattle. "Nut hatch" and "Booby house" were simply street short. Nothing like "Drat!" for "Damn!" Anything *but* (at the time) euphemisms. >I think a lot of the time that 'sane' > people are embarrassed about mental illness (their > own) so they like to predicate it onto a certain group > who they can label 'insane'. Yeah -- idiots are universal. > That's what the insane are for? scapegoating Right ON!!!! :-( Robin From mandolin at mac.com Mon Apr 25 12:55:45 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:55:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <03aa01c549ad$a67c21d0$fb032cd9@Robin> References: <20050425142205.80366.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> <037601c549a6$267137c0$fb032cd9@Robin> <2025675.1114441385666.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <9460885.1114442063681.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <03aa01c549ad$a67c21d0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <2262475.1114448145320.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Monday, April 25, 2005, at 11:45AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >From: "Mike Snider" > >> >>I wouldn't (though this is probably equally historical) use the term >"booby >> >>hatch". >> >> >> >>Ever. >> >> >> > >I thought that had to do with the bird, and looking it up I found some >confirmation here ( >http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/552.html ), along with >a derivation from the Spanish "boho" -- but nothing I'd have thought >particularly objectionable except in the way "niggardly" caused a row in >Washington DC a few years ago. >>> > >When they entered UK demotic, they were *both* [deliberately] offensive -- >quite a different issue from "niggardly". > What I meant, and of course didn't say, was that it didn't seem particularly offensive in comparison to "nut hatch" unless "booby" was taken to be a reference to breasts -- and there has been a series of porn films Booby Hatch I & II etc ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From jkok at hfa.umass.edu Mon Apr 25 12:56:24 2005 From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] And another... Message-ID: Poverty When dying, St. Francis asked to be put on the floor. Asked that his robes be removed before they lay him down so that he could feel closer to Lady Poverty. Not allowing passage out of this world to diminish his hunger. Not refuting his body that finely registered lack in favor of a greater reward. As his hands and ankles turned the pale yellow of near death, even as the pulse within him slowly closed in on his chest, the man lay against her, saying goodbye. Her cold surface the endless opportunity of his soul. Her wide corridors home to his thin burning body, in all of that rejoicing and desire. Kerry O'Keefe From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 12:57:41 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425165741.32116.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> no, what pond? do you mean the Irish sea? I've heard of booby hatch and funny farm but nut hatch is a new one. They all have an etymology and that is interesting in that they're not terms merely plucked from mid-air. I think 'funny farm' may be. Yes, have been in one myself so know all about the stigma and stupidity. I think my family and all the people around me made me into a bin for their problems. their terms of reference directly echoed the language of genocide. I became a 'problem' ( a problem had been created just as the Jewish question or problem was a deliberate creation of the Nazi heirarchy) to other people. Of course, we all know who the real problems were, nicht wahr... --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > sorry, you lost me there, of course. > > if it wasn't fun why did the British electorate > choose > > her in the first place? > > Because they were greedy and stupid and > short-sighted. > > > wasn't privatisation a way of dumbing culture down > > too, it's often said. > > music and books made for 13 yr olds > > Dumbing-down was later -- the Hag simply ran on a > set of singularly > self-interested economic policies. > > And as always, it was the rich what got the > pleasure, it was the poor what > got the blame. > > Robin > > (Hey, Paul, earlier I thought you were catching me > up as I wasn't p-c, but > was it as simple as that I was running Brit > references that don't cross the > Pond? > > R.) > > > --- Robin Hamilton > > > wrote: > > > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > > > > > the Hag of Grantham > > > > > > > > who she? > > > > > > Dame Margaret Thatcher (a.k.a. the milk > snatcher), > > > ex-premier of the British > > > Isles. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hruggier at localnet.com Mon Apr 25 12:58:38 2005 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:58:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Statistical query References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost><002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> <01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009901c549b8$07878820$930c9942@Helen> I'm on wom-po and this one - had to get off the Buffalo one - too much chatter. h ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Statistical query >> How many (if any) people on this list are on either British Poetry or >> poetryetc? > >> (Having said that, I recognise that at least two members of this list >> once >> were but are no longer -- is this significant?) > > I've never been on either. Looks like I'm still on this one, which is a > relief, because I'm gearing up to post burstnorm poems that I think > accessible and see what the reaction to them is. I'm also on a list > devoted to the Shakespeare authorship question where I'm sometimes much > more impolite to anti-Stratfordians as I am to my opponents here. And, as > Robin has said, I post occasionally to Shaksper, where I'm sometimes > sarcastic but not very impolite, I don't think. > > >> I ask this as these are, to my mind, the two main "UK" lists -- not >> (necessarily) because they have more Brits than non-Brit members but >> because >> the tone and focus tend to be "British". >> >> (This is more true of britpo than petc but -- part of why I'm asking -- >> is >> that there's a large membership overlap between those two lists.) >> >> ... but there doesn't seem to be an (obvious) overlap between either of >> those two and NP. >> >> Nothing to do with poetry really, sheer curiosity on my part. >> >> I suppose tangentially (and equally irrelevantly) there's the question of >> who haunts both poetry and academic lists? I know that both Bob Grumman >> and >> I are on SHAKSPER, but beyond that ... > >> And to continue this, does anyone other than me have a problem with >> adjusting their idiom of discourse between UK/US lists and >> poetry/academic >> lists? > >> And *between* academic lists, where the verbal dress code can differ >> quite >> drastically. SHAKSPER (as at least Bob will know) has a "British/loose" >> code, Ficino is quite narrowly (and comfortingly, as at least you know >> where >> you are) academic. The extreme is Milton-L, which is both American code >> and >> deeply hierarchical, being reminiscent of nothing so much as a pack of >> noyaux gorillas. > > Gee, too bad I'm not too interested in Milton! > >> Slow thoughts on a sunny Sunday afternoon. >> >> Robin > > Slow replies after a day I actually got some work done. Scanned in poems > from something like 20 poets I think influenced by Cummings, just about > none of whom posters to New-Poetry will have heard of. Creeley was one, > but I'm using just one poem by him. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 13:15:12 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425171513.8349.qmail@web40424.mail.yahoo.com> I don't care if its offensive. let's say that one man's offence is another man's preference. boobs doesn't disturb me, so too bristols, tits, they're all the same just words. I am profoundly at odds with political correctness suspecting it of being a new or other form of Totalitarianism. I think we should be free to choose what we say, preferring rather than being compelled. I'm prepared to say absolutely anything if just for the pleasure and right to say it. So take your political correctness and stick it! --- Mike Snider wrote: > > On Monday, April 25, 2005, at 11:45AM, Robin > Hamilton wrote: > > >From: "Mike Snider" > > > >> >>I wouldn't (though this is probably equally > historical) use the term > >"booby > >> >>hatch". > >> >> > >> >>Ever. > >> >> > >> > > >I thought that had to do with the bird, and looking > it up I found some > >confirmation here ( > >http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/14/messages/552.html > ), along with > >a derivation from the Spanish "boho" -- but nothing > I'd have thought > >particularly objectionable except in the way > "niggardly" caused a row in > >Washington DC a few years ago. > >>> > > > >When they entered UK demotic, they were *both* > [deliberately] offensive -- > >quite a different issue from "niggardly". > > > > What I meant, and of course didn't say, was that it > didn't seem particularly offensive in comparison to > "nut hatch" unless "booby" was taken to be a > reference to breasts -- and there has been a series > of porn films Booby Hatch I & II etc > > > > > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the > Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 25 13:20:45 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:20:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] applications for a fulltime tenure-track position Message-ID: <003901c549bb$1dec8900$34ad3252@ANNY> > From: J.Bak at let.ru.nl [mailto:J.Bak at let.ru.nl] > Sent: vrijdag 22 april 2005 16:14 Radboud University Nijmegen, the Netherlands, invites applications for a fulltime tenure-track position (starting September 1, 2005) of Associate Professor of American Studies ("universitair hoofddocent Amerikanistiek") The position is located within the Department of English and American Studies, which offers BA (three years) and MA (one year) programs in both English and American Studies. The Nijmegen American Studies program is committed to multi- and interdisciplinary teaching: it comprises courses in American literature, history, popular culture, film and theater, art and architecture, gender and sexuality studies, the US political system and foreign policy, constitutional law, and US business and international management, as well as interdisciplinary seminars on varying topics. It also offers a Minor in Canadian Studies. Candidates are expected to play a prominent and defining role in the teaching of (a) American literature in a cultural and historical context and (b) American popular culture, both at the undergraduate and graduate levels. They are expected to initiate and supervise innovative interdisciplinary research in one of the research themes of the Research Institute for Historical, Literary and Cultural Studies: "cultural memory" and/or "infrastructure of the literary and cultural life". Candidates are expected to play a major role in management and administration, in particular of the American Studies program. Requirements: Candidates hold a PhD in American literature or culture and are theoretically and methodologically well-grounded in American Studies. They have a good track record in (preferably interdisciplinary) research, as evident from a strong list of (international) publications. They have kept abreast with the latest developments in and played an active part in (international) American Studies, in both Europe and the US. They are able to initiate and supervise new interdisciplinary research in American literature and/or popular culture in one of the research themes mentioned above. They are eminent and inspiring teachers, with ample experience both at the undergraduate and the graduate levels, and are well versed in ICT applications in higher education. They have demonstrably strong managerial and organizational talents, and have experience in research funds acquisition. Affinity with Canadian Studies will be an advantage. Deadline for applications: May 9, 2005 For further information, please contact: Prof. Dr. Hans Bak, Professor of American Literature and American Studies, Radboud University Nijmegen, the Netherlands: tel: ++31 24 3612782 or ++31 24 3581798 (home); email: h.bak at let.ru.nl; or Prof. Dr. A. van Kemenade, chair English Department, tel: ++31 24 3611422, email: a.v.kemenade at let.ru.nl. See also www.ru.nl/englishdept and www.ru.nl/hlcs. Letters of application should be sent, before May 13, 2005, to: P. Stunnenberg, Radboud Universiteit Nijmegen, Afdeling Personeelszaken, Faculteit der Letteren, PO Box 9103, 6500 HD Nijmegen, the Netherlands. Tel: ++31 24 3612893. Applications by email will be accepted: pzlet at let.ru.nl _______________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 13:37:27 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:37:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425165741.32116.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <042c01c549bd$72f54390$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Paul Murphy" > no, what pond? do you mean the Irish sea? I was thinking of the Atlantic Pond rather than the Irish Sea. Erse brothers are kissing cousins, so what Pond? > I've heard > of booby hatch and funny farm but nut hatch is a new > one. That's odd, because "funny farm" was the term that always struck me as an utter joke. Nobody used it. There was this strange sixties record -- who the hell recorded it? *** You thought it was joke and so you laughed when I had said that losing you would make me flip my lid, right? You know you laughed, I heard you laugh, you laughed and laughed and then you left, but now you know I'm utterly out of my mind CHORUS: And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha To the happy home with trees and flowers and chirping birds and basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs and toes They're coming to take me away ha ha... I cooked your food, I cleaned your house, so this is how you paid me back for all my kind unselfish loving deeds. Huh? Well you just wait they'll find you yet, and when they do they'll put you in the ASPCA you mangy mutt. CHORUS: And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time and I'll be happy to see those nice men in their white coats They're coming to take me away Ha Ha And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha To the happy home with trees and flowers and chirping birds and basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle thier thumbs and toes They're coming to take me away Ha Ha Your home the one the bank foreclosed, You cried to me Mahagony is the way we both must live or you'll feel hurt. But, I see, I see there's someone new, your anxious poly-pure-bred coat was even gone at our place while I paid the rent, thanks! CHORUS: And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha To the loony bin with all you can eat perscription drugs like torizine, and lithium, and electric shock eels They're coming to take me away Ha Ha *** I loved that record when when I was in my late teens (which severely dates me). Robin > They all have an etymology and that is > interesting in that they're not terms merely plucked > from mid-air. I think 'funny farm' may be. Yes, have > been in one myself so know all about the stigma and > stupidity. I think my family and all the people > around me made me into a bin for their problems. > their terms of reference directly echoed the language > of genocide. I became a 'problem' ( a problem had > been created just as the Jewish question or problem > was a deliberate creation of the Nazi heirarchy) to > other people. Of course, we all know who the real > problems were, nicht wahr... From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 25 13:44:41 2005 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:44:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets for Choice Readings -- May 5th -- NYC In-Reply-To: <009901c549b8$07878820$930c9942@Helen> References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost><002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin> <01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009901c549b8$07878820$930c9942@Helen> Message-ID: Poets for Choice Readings A Benefit for Planned Parenthood of New York May 5th 2005 Thursday 7:30 p.m. Coordinated by Corinne Robins Halvard Johnson Rochelle Ratner Mark Weiss Suggested Donation $8 Ceres Gallery, 547 W. 27th Street, New York, NY 10001 212-947-610 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 347 bytes Desc: not available URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 14:02:14 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425180214.42793.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> yes, but the song is utter nonsense and you refused to address the questions I raised? --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > no, what pond? do you mean the Irish sea? > > I was thinking of the Atlantic Pond rather than the > Irish Sea. > > Erse brothers are kissing cousins, so what Pond? > > > I've heard > > of booby hatch and funny farm but nut hatch is a > new > > one. > > That's odd, because "funny farm" was the term that > always struck me as an > utter joke. > > Nobody used it. > > There was this strange sixties record -- who the > hell recorded it? > > *** > > You thought it was joke and so you laughed when I > had said that losing you > would make me flip my lid, right? You know you > laughed, I heard you laugh, > you laughed and laughed and then you left, but now > you know I'm utterly out > of my mind > > CHORUS: > > And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha > They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha > To the happy home with trees and flowers and > chirping birds and basket > weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs > and toes > They're coming to take me away ha ha... > > I cooked your food, I cleaned your house, so this is > how you paid me back > for all my kind unselfish loving deeds. Huh? Well > you just wait they'll find > you yet, and when they do they'll put you in the > ASPCA you mangy mutt. > > CHORUS: > > And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha > They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha > To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the > time and I'll be happy to > see those nice men in their white coats > They're coming to take me away Ha Ha > And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha > They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha > To the happy home with trees and flowers and > chirping birds and basket > weavers who sit and smile and twiddle thier thumbs > and toes > They're coming to take me away Ha Ha > > Your home the one the bank foreclosed, You cried to > me Mahagony is the way > we both must live or you'll feel hurt. But, I see, I > see there's someone > new, your anxious poly-pure-bred coat was even gone > at our place while I > paid the rent, thanks! > > CHORUS: > > And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha > They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha > To the loony bin with all you can eat perscription > drugs like torizine, and > lithium, and electric shock eels > They're coming to take me away Ha Ha > > *** > > I loved that record when when I was in my late teens > (which severely dates > me). > > Robin > > > They all have an etymology and that is > > interesting in that they're not terms merely > plucked > > from mid-air. I think 'funny farm' may be. Yes, > have > > been in one myself so know all about the stigma > and > > stupidity. I think my family and all the people > > around me made me into a bin for their problems. > > their terms of reference directly echoed the > language > > of genocide. I became a 'problem' ( a problem > had > > been created just as the Jewish question or > problem > > was a deliberate creation of the Nazi heirarchy) > to > > other people. Of course, we all know who the real > > problems were, nicht wahr... > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 14:11:38 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:11:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425171513.8349.qmail@web40424.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <044f01c549c2$39c19c40$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Paul Murphy" > I don't care if its offensive. let's say that one > man's offence is another man's preference. I think that's wildly simplistic, Paul. I wrote a poem once, mostly about Jack the Ripper, which contained a line (about a dog peeing against a fire-hydrant) with the words, "a quick spastic dribble". To me, that had no connotations other than simple muscle movement, and it got published in a Respectable US Magazine. But I read it once to an audience which contained a kid (one of my students) whose younger brother was a spastic. He made the quite correct point to me after the reading that what I'd written *was* offensive -- not p-c, not loaded, but that quite simply "spastic" as a term couldn't be used in a neutral fashion. Despite that my heart was (I think) pure on this issue, I had to agree he was right. It didn't bloody *matter* (from my point of view) that that I'd intended no offence -- what I had written was objectively and indefensibly offensive. I don't think you can ignore offence quite so glibly. Robin > boobs doesn't disturb me, so too bristols, tits, > they're all the same > just words. I am profoundly at odds with political > correctness suspecting it of being a new or other form > of Totalitarianism. I think we should be free to > choose what we say, preferring rather than being > compelled. I'm prepared to say absolutely anything if > just for the pleasure and right to say it. So take > your political correctness and stick it! From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 14:22:41 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:22:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425180214.42793.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <045501c549c3$c48db9c0$fb032cd9@Robin> Paul Murphy said: > yes, but the song is utter nonsense Look, sunny jim, if you think the song is nonsense ... You ought to be better able to decode this than me. The text I plucked from the Web is echt-USAmerican -- ASPCA rather than RSPCA -- but trivial it may be, nonsense it *ain't*. Who taught you? I think we're into a Serious Generational Divide here. Robin From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Apr 25 14:27:59 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:27:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEAA8@URANIUM.ripon.college> For an amusing read, I suggest a look at Ron Silliman's latest blog entry. In it, he rakes Billy Collins over the coals concerning BC's discussion (in the intro to *180 More*) of the concept of accessibility. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Among Collins's offenses, he has the temerity to use the first stanza of the following poem by Rae Armantraut as an example of how an inaccessible poem begins. See what you think: Up to Speed Streamline to instantaneous voucher in / voucher out system. The plot winnows. The Sphinx wants me to guess. Does a road run its whole length at once? Does a creature curve to meet itself? Whirlette! ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 14:36:17 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425183617.49637.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> I think that there are contexts and appropriateness. For a psychiatrist to call his patient 'insane' is inappropriate but mine did. I would have sued but knew they would all cover for each other. So, I prefer to say anything I want, when I want, to whomever I want (until I am threatened, that is) Because, after all, they do, don't they. Now don't give me any more of this fucking PC fucking bullshit because that's what it is, isn't it? People have severly screwed up my life with their unPC foamings and in ways in which I have suffered obvious discrimination which has cost me a great deal. Just stick it, fuck off... --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > I don't care if its offensive. let's say that one > > man's offence is another man's preference. > > I think that's wildly simplistic, Paul. > > I wrote a poem once, mostly about Jack the Ripper, > which contained a line > (about a dog peeing against a fire-hydrant) with the > words, "a quick spastic > dribble". > > To me, that had no connotations other than simple > muscle movement, and it > got published in a Respectable US Magazine. > > But I read it once to an audience which contained a > kid (one of my students) > whose younger brother was a spastic. > > He made the quite correct point to me after the > reading that what I'd > written *was* offensive -- not p-c, not loaded, but > that quite simply > "spastic" as a term couldn't be used in a neutral > fashion. > > Despite that my heart was (I think) pure on this > issue, I had to agree he > was right. > > It didn't bloody *matter* (from my point of view) > that that I'd intended no > offence -- what I had written was objectively and > indefensibly offensive. > > I don't think you can ignore offence quite so > glibly. > > Robin > > > boobs doesn't disturb me, so too bristols, tits, > > they're all the same > > just words. I am profoundly at odds with > political > > correctness suspecting it of being a new or other > form > > of Totalitarianism. I think we should be free to > > choose what we say, preferring rather than being > > compelled. I'm prepared to say absolutely > anything if > > just for the pleasure and right to say it. So > take > > your political correctness and stick it! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Apr 25 14:44:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:44:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425180214.42793.qmail@web40423.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <048501c549c6$c584bc90$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "Paul Murphy" > yes, but the song is utter nonsense I've just second googled this and the song (such as it is) is USAmerican by Napoleon XIV (real name: Jerry Samuels) .... Shows -- I thought it was Brit with a Yank overlay, but no. Wanna hear it, go here: http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/doddington/248/ha.htm ... and there, I thought that the concept of the Raving Monster Looney party that survived its founder was strictly Brit. Goes to show ... Robin From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 14:53:39 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050425185339.62692.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> no, it's true, you evaded the issues I raised the song is an evasion --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > Paul Murphy said: > > > yes, but the song is utter nonsense > > Look, sunny jim, if you think the song is nonsense > ... > > You ought to be better able to decode this than me. > > The text I plucked from the Web is echt-USAmerican > -- ASPCA rather than > RSPCA -- but trivial it may be, nonsense it *ain't*. > > Who taught you? > > > > I think we're into a Serious Generational Divide > here. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 25 15:00:45 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:00:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <044f01c549c2$39c19c40$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <426D061D.16884.1D3F89F@localhost> > From: "Paul Murphy" > > I don't care if its offensive. let's say that one > > man's offence is another man's preference. > On 25 Apr 2005 at 19:11, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I think that's wildly simplistic, Paul. > I wrote a poem once, mostly about Jack the Ripper, which contained a > line (about a dog peeing against a fire-hydrant) with the words, "a > quick spastic dribble". > But I read it once to an audience which contained a kid (one of my > students) whose younger brother was a spastic. > He made the quite correct point to me after the reading that what I'd > written *was* offensive -- not p-c, not loaded, but that quite simply > "spastic" as a term couldn't be used in a neutral fashion. > Despite that my heart was (I think) pure on this issue, I had to agree > he was right. > It didn't bloody *matter* (from my point of view) that that I'd > intended no offence -- what I had written was objectively and > indefensibly offensive. > I don't think you can ignore offence quite so glibly. That can't be right. The context has to determine the meaning or there can be no meaning. To take a word out of context and say it's inherently offensive seems not only silly but destructive of any writer's, not only any poet's, ability to create a context. If it's right that merely using the word "spastic" is offensive, then you've doubled and re-doubled the offense by using and reusing it here -- and perhaps redoubled all that offense by the opinion that you're not only wrong to do so but that you _knew_ this time that you were wrong to do so. spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic spastic Marcus From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 25 15:05:28 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:05:28 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEAA8@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <001e01c549c9$bee24080$34ad3252@ANNY> The Scarlet-A wordJeex I wouldn't like to be Ron Silliman, Joan Houlihan is testing him _finally-she says. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham, David To: New-Poetry Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:27 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word For an amusing read, I suggest a look at Ron Silliman's latest blog entry. In it, he rakes Billy Collins over the coals concerning BC's discussion (in the intro to *180 More*) of the concept of accessibility. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Among Collins's offenses, he has the temerity to use the first stanza of the following poem by Rae Armantraut as an example of how an inaccessible poem begins. See what you think: Up to Speed Streamline to instantaneous voucher in / voucher out system. The plot winnows. The Sphinx wants me to guess. Does a road run its whole length at once? Does a creature curve to meet itself? Whirlette! ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Apr 25 15:08:45 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:08:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lucia Perillo Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEAA9@URANIUM.ripon.college> >From her new collection, *Luck is Luck*: Languedoc Southern France, the troubadour age: all these men running around in frilly sleeves. Each is looking for a woman he could write a song about- or the moonlight a woman, the red wine a woman, there is even a woman called the Albigensian Crusade. It's the tail end of the Dark Age but if we wait a little longer it'll be the Renaissance and the forms of the songs will be named and writ down; wait: here comes the villanelle, whistling along the pike, repeating the same words over and over until I'm afraid my patience with your serenade runs out: time's up. Long ago I might have been attracted by your tights and pantaloons, but now they just look silly, ditto for your instrument that looks like a gourd with strings attached (the problem is always the strings attached). Langue d'oc, meaning the language of yes, as in "Do you love me?" Oc. "Even when compared to her who sports the nipple ring?" Oc oc. "Will we age gracefully and die appealing deaths?" Oc oc oc oc. So much affirmation ends up sounding like a murder of crows passing overhead and it is easy to be afraid of crows- though sometimes you have to start flapping your arms and follow them. And fly to somewhere the signs say: Yes Trespassing, Yes Smoking, Yes Alcohol Allowed on Premises, Yes Shirt Yes Shoes Yes Service Yes. Yes Loitering here by this rocky coast whose waves are small and will not break your neck; this ain't no ocean, baby, this is just the sea. Yes Swimming Yes Bicycles Yes to Nude Sunbathing All Around, Yes to Herniated Bathing-capp?d Veterans of World War One and Yes to Leathery Old Lady Joggers. Yes to their sun visors and varicose veins in back of their knees, I guess James Joyce did get here first- sometimes the Europeans seem much more advanced. But you can't go through life regretting what you are, yes, I'm talking to you in the baseball cap, I'm singing this country-western song that goes: Yeah! Oc!Yes!Oui!We!-will dive-right-in. --Lucia Perillo ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Apr 25 15:17:15 2005 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:17:15 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word Message-ID: <21806441.1114456637154.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Or: Poems We Can Understand If a monkey drives a car down a colonnade facing the sea and the palm trees to the left are tin we don't understand it. We want poems we can understand. We want a god to lead us, renaming the flowers and trees, color-coding the scene, doing bird calls for guests. We want poems we can understand, no sullen drunks making passes next to an armadillo, no complex nothingness amounting to a song, no running in and out of walls on the dry tongue of a mouse, no bludgeoness, no girl, no sea that moves with all deliberate speed, beside itself and blue as water, inside itself and still, no lizards on the table becoming absolute hands. We want poetry we can understand, the fingerprints on mother's dress, pain of martyrs, scientists. Please, no rabbit taking a rabbit out of a yellow hat, no tattooed back facing miles of desert, no wind. We don't understand it. --Paul Hoover Sorry, I seem to have lost the source. - Jim -----Original Message----- From: "Graham, David" Sent: Apr 25, 2005 11:27 AM To: New-Poetry Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word For an amusing read, I suggest a look at Ron Silliman's latest blog entry. In it, he rakes Billy Collins over the coals concerning BC's discussion (in the intro to *180 More*) of the concept of accessibility. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Among Collins's offenses, he has the temerity to use the first stanza of the following poem by Rae Armantraut as an example of how an inaccessible poem begins. See what you think: Up to Speed Streamline to instantaneous voucher in / voucher out system. The plot winnows. The Sphinx wants me to guess. Does a road run its whole length at once? Does a creature curve to meet itself? Whirlette! ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 16:51:46 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:51:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Leonard References: <426B71FF.5055.4AB708@localhost><002101c548e1$60acdc70$fb032cd9@Robin><01c001c54916$99a78d10$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><012a01c54919$a661e250$fb032cd9@Robin><022501c5492b$b3b06370$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <02a301c54986$50abd150$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <00ed01c549d8$98a79410$7eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >> I don't know Tom Leonard. > > Here's one for you, Bob, which was recently posted on another list. (I've > silently corrected a mis-transcription in the original.) > > Robin > > ******* > > Just ti Let Yi No > (from the American of Carlos Williams) > > ahv drank > the speshlz > that wurrin > thi frij Ah, yes--I think you've quoted him before. I can see similarities to Cummings the slang-slinger. --BG > n thit > yiwurr probbli > hodn back > furthi pahrti > > awright > they wur great > thaht stroang > thaht cawld > > -Tom Leonard > (Intimate Voices p 37) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 17:05:45 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:05:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem-a-day References: <029601c54941$0b9e6900$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003001c549a7$ece51790$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <011601c549da$8c91f100$7eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > <<<< She and I are on good terms>>>> > > a first??? Close enough to be worth mentioning. --badBob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 17:12:33 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:12:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn References: <20050425155913.79596.qmail@web40422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012801c549db$802aa0f0$7eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > weren't they euphemisms to cover up fear and > embarrassment? I think a lot of the time that 'sane' > people are embarrassed about mental illness (their > own) so they like to predicate it onto a certain group > who they can label 'insane'. Similarly, a decision > was made at Wannsee in 1941, enlosung der Juden Frage, > to predicate all the problems onto a certain group of > people. That's what the insane are for? scapegoating Actually, insane people are a goddammed nuisance and sane people don't like them, so they call them names, and because insane people are also often colorful, the names multiply into metaphors and puns. --Mr. Sanity From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 25 17:20:14 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:20:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tom Leonard In-Reply-To: <00ed01c549d8$98a79410$7eb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <426D26CE.13392.253A93A@localhost> > > Here's one for you, Bob, which was recently posted on another list. > > (I've silently corrected a mis-transcription in the original.) > > Robin > > > > ******* > > > > Just ti Let Yi No > > (from the American of Carlos Williams) > > > > ahv drank > > the speshlz > > that wurrin > > thi frij > > Ah, yes--I think you've quoted him before. I can see similarities to > Cummings the slang-slinger. The whole notion that Cummings is the first to do this is preposterous on the face of it. He was fluent in French, and Villon had done it all already, done it all. Villon's Straight Tip to All Cros Coves "Tout aux tavernes et aux fiells" WE Henley Suppose you screeve? Or go cheap-jack? Or fake the broads? Or fig a nag? Or thimble-rig? Or knap a yack? Or pitch a snide? Or smash a rag? Suppose you duff? Or nose and lag? Or get the straight, and land your pot? How do you melt the multy swag? Booze and the blowens cop the lot. Fiddle, or fence, or mace, or mack: Or moskeneer, or flash the drag; Dead-lurk a crib, or do a crack; Pad with a slang, or chuck a fag; Bonnet, or tout, or mump and gag; Rattle the tats, or mark the spot; You cannot bag a single stag; Booze and the blowens cop the lot. Suppose you try a different tack, And on the square you flash your flag? At penny-a-lining make your whack, Or with the mummers mug and gag? For nix, for nix the dibbs you bag! At any graft, no matter what, Your merry goblins soon stravag: Booze and the blowens cop the lot. Envoi: It's up the spout and Charley Wag With wipes and tickers and what not Until the squeezer nips your scrag, Booze and the blowens cop the lot. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 17:42:29 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:42:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEAA8@URANIUM.ripon.college> <001e01c549c9$bee24080$34ad3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <002b01c549df$ae43f0f0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> The Scarlet-A wordJeex I wouldn't like to be Ron Silliman, Joan Houlihan is testing him _finally-she says. Anny Hey, I'd LOVE it if she'd take ME on. I don't think she'd dare to. I exchanged e.mails with her, I think. Can remember no details except that she's one of those hyperaccessophiles. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 17:54:34 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:54:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEAA8@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <006901c549e1$5e9d17f0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> The Scarlet-A word For an amusing read, I suggest a look at Ron Silliman's latest blog entry. In it, he rakes Billy Collins over the coals concerning BC's discussion (in the intro to *180 More*) of the concept of accessibility. I thought Silliman should have defended the poem as difficult but effective--although I didn't find it effective (yet, and don't think Silliman did a good job in showing why anyone should like it). My impression is that Collins is a stasguard, Silliman a stasgore--down with the new, down with the old. No one will ever believe it, but I take neither position. Silliman did do a good job of showing how narrow Collins's taste is, though. He seems to be not even a Wilshberian. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 25 18:04:47 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:04:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham, Superstar Message-ID: <9d.5e938cd2.2f9ec37f@cs.com> In a message dated 4/24/2005 6:43:50 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > But I like Orr. I'm probably not the person you want to listen to, because > I like Logan and Helen, too. I like it that people engage poetry seriously, > and write for a larger audience. That probably makes me an enemy of poetry, > but there you are. > At least this one was a little more hard-edged than the usual poetry puffs in the NYTBR. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 19:06:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:06:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for Today--Burstnorm Speciman & Appreciation Message-ID: <00eb01c549eb$65b39fa0$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> viviD windown the brease a nocean th see th shelleye sands and th ese seseas s and s and s repeat at re peat the blue wind 0 f or for itself alonglong the see-groped beech streed so softly you're foot a playce on ssand an sesand on e seasand of sommer a fell About it, I said in a magazine called the Experioddicist 10 years or so ago, "Geof Ruth's "viviD" begins (after its peculiarly lettered title has alerted us to expect oddities) with a wind that is down--a mere breeze; or a window on "the breasej" or a breeze that is to be 'wound down' . . . The details are uncertain, but a movement of air, ease, and a window--real or figurative--are prominent among them. Soon the sea is with us, too, as an object with the ethereality of an idea, or 'nocean.' And millionings of sands. We're in a beach seen, and a summerising mood. . . and a typography shimmered free to act rather than merely symbolize. "And so the poem flows on from 'the see' through 'th ese,' and into divers renderings of ebb and flow, of fragmenting and recombining; of 'seseas' developing ashore, or withdrawing in steps from the sand, in the process visually and pun fully relanguaging 'on e seasand of sommer' into vivO memorableness." With a season of "fell" to follow. My main interest in the poem (which I like as much as ever) now is what it may owe Cummings, directly or indirectly. Certainly the capital Dee as attention-grabber in its title. "nocean" is Joyce and Saroyan, but the splitting off of the en in "an" and attaching it to "ocean" is Cummings, the pioneer of intrasyllabic flow-breaks. I give the narrow lay-out of the poem to Cummings, too, but really don't know who in American poetry began that. He was certainly a pioneer in "freedom of shape" in English-spreaking poetry, though. More Cummingsesque intra-syllabic flow-breaks follow as well as the Cummingsesque infraverbal text-repeat ("textpeat" can I dare call it?) of "se" in "seseas," as in Cummings's poems about the coucough, for instance. Mustn't forget all the Cummingsesque textual symmetries as with the esses in "seseas" and "s and s." "wind O" is beautifully Cummings, the first American magician of the O, it seems to me--and again, there is a wonderfully effective Cummingsesque flow-break from one stanza, this time, to another, when "O" completes itself as "Of." With the eff using "or" to make another Cummingsesque infraverbal textual symmetrification. The final Cummingsification, except for intrasyllabreaks, is "so softly," with its "so so" and one of Cummings's favorite words, "softly," and favorite locutions, for that matter, "so softly." Have I belittled the poem by showing its use of Cummingsifications? I certainly don't think so. I think I've put the lie to the notion that one can't follow in the footsteps of Cummings without seeming a trivial copycat. Huth's poem is a masterpiece that uses Cummings no more detrimentally than rhymers use whoever invented that device. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Mon Apr 25 19:17:29 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:17:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEAA8@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEAA8@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <445c60b6d37acc1177f2af4257c469f1@mac.com> On Apr 25, 2005, at 2:27 PM, Graham, David wrote: > For an amusing read, I suggest a look at Ron Silliman's latest blog > entry.? In it, he rakes Billy Collins over the coals concerning BC's > discussion (in the intro to *180 More*) of the concept of > accessibility.? > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > Among Collins's offenses, he has the temerity to use the first stanza > of the following poem by Rae Armantraut as an example of how an > inaccessible poem begins.? See what you think: > > Up to Speed > > Streamline to instantaneous > voucher in / voucher out > system. > > The plot winnows. > > The Sphinx > wants me to guess. > > Does a road > run its whole length > at once? > > Does a creature > curve to meet > itself? > > Whirlette! > Well, compared to Silliman's own work ( for example,Sunset Debris: http://www.ubu.com/ubu/silliman_sunset.html) this is almost transparent. But there's not much left after you've worked through it, and there's not much on the way to give any pleasure except the crossword puzzle kind, or maybe a sort of anti-rebus. It would be a truly bizarre choice for an anthology intended to bring new readers to poetry. Whether or not this is a very good poem, it certainly isn't "hospitable." Mike S. From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Apr 25 19:29:37 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:29:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word Message-ID: Hyperaccessophiles? A new word? Or just a multi syllabic way ofsaying this is someone who likes a little there there. Al -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Mon Apr 25 19:38:35 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:38:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ae5540a566298a19a8b81890e26e25a@mac.com> On Apr 25, 2005, at 7:29 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > > Hyperaccessophiles? A new word? Or just a multi syllabic way ofsaying > this is someone who likes a little there there. > ? > Hey Al! Good to see you here. Mike S From acgold01 at louisville.edu Mon Apr 25 19:38:35 2005 From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:38:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Britpo Message-ID: To answer your question, Robin, I'm on Britpo and UK Poetry. I was on Poetryetc for quite a long time, but suspended my subscription at a point where my leaving to travel for a few weeks coincided with a particularly virulent, circular and tedious period of in-fighting, so I never bothered to resubcribe. I barely find time to read the lists, let alone contribute regularly, so I admit the code-switching issue doesn't arise for me. Also, I'm a long-time US resident of English origin who goes back to England twice a year, which maybe makes it easier for me to cross whatever lines of cultural difference there might be. I dunno. How do you find it as a Scot based--where? How would you distinguish a "poetry" from an "academic" list? (I suspect I'm on both.) By the social location of the majority of participants? By whether the majority of participants write poetry or not? In some cases (you're on the Milton list, apparently, and I'm on the Pound) the distinction seems pretty clear, and in others less so. Alan Golding From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Apr 25 19:40:26 2005 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:40:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word Message-ID: <194.3d93636a.2f9ed9ea@aol.com> Good to be here. I think. Been enjoying your blog Mike. Al -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 25 19:41:47 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:41:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word References: Message-ID: <012801c549f0$58b5b810$59b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hyperaccessophiles? A new word? Probably, since I'm a mad neologizer. Or just a multi syllabic way of saying this is someone who likes a little there there. No, it's a multisyllabic way of saying this is someone who wants immediate accessibility--a there there RIGHT NOW. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Apr 26 12:52:43 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:52:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEABA@URANIUM.ripon.college> Probably an unbridgeable aesthetic divide here, I suspect. The contortions Silliman goes through in order to lay claim on Armantraut's poem as being "accessible" just strikes me as funny. Hell, some of my students find Billy Collins's own poems difficult. . . . As far as I've seen, Collins is always careful not to say that less accessible poetry is necessarily less good. That strikes me as an obvious point, but apparently not to some readers. I do like Collins's notion of some poems being relatively more "hospitable," which is not the same thing as being dumbed-down. Just that certain poems are more likely to reach the non-specialist reader on a "first bounce," as he likes to put it. Similarly, BC has argued that we shouldn't *start* high school students on Chaucer & Shakespeare, but something more hospitable. We can then work up to the more challenging stuff. There's also a sort of difficulty that is more conceptual than linguistic, and this, too, is a distinction that often seems lost in these discussions. Figurative language can be quite challenging and mysterious, especially to novice readers, even when the surface of the poem (diction, syntax, reference, etc.) is absolutely clear. Many examples in Frost, e.g., of poems that are accessible stylistically but hard as hell to "get." And that has made all the difference. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Michael Snider > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 6:17 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet-A word > > > On Apr 25, 2005, at 2:27 PM, Graham, David wrote: > > > For an amusing read, I suggest a look at Ron Silliman's latest blog > > entry. In it, he rakes Billy Collins over the coals concerning BC's > > discussion (in the intro to *180 More*) of the concept of > > accessibility. > > > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > > > Among Collins's offenses, he has the temerity to use the first stanza > > of the following poem by Rae Armantraut as an example of how an > > inaccessible poem begins. See what you think: > > > > Up to Speed > > > > Streamline to instantaneous > > voucher in / voucher out > > system. > > > > The plot winnows. > > > > The Sphinx > > wants me to guess. > > > > Does a road > > run its whole length > > at once? > > > > Does a creature > > curve to meet > > itself? > > > > Whirlette! > > > > > > > Well, compared to Silliman's own work ( for example,Sunset Debris: > http://www.ubu.com/ubu/silliman_sunset.html) this is almost > transparent. But there's not much left after you've worked through it, > and there's not much on the way to give any pleasure except the > crossword puzzle kind, or maybe a sort of anti-rebus. It would be a > truly bizarre choice for an anthology intended to bring new readers to > poetry. Whether or not this is a very good poem, it certainly isn't > "hospitable." > > Mike S. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Apr 26 06:38:55 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 05:38:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class Message-ID: Here's the link: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050425/ap_on_re_us/threatened_ by_poetry --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Apr 26 13:56:34 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:56:34 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE TRUTH ABOUT STORIES - Thomas King Message-ID: <002501c54a89$49095310$c8aa3252@ANNY> ? From: Stacy Zellmann [mailto:zellm003 at umn.edu] ? Sent: donderdag 21 april 2005 21:22 Illuminates the relationship between storytelling and the Native North American experience. THE TRUTH ABOUT STORIES: A Native Narrative Thomas King University of Minnesota Press | 184 pages | 2005 ISBN 0-8166-4626-0 | hardcover | $24.95 Indigenous Americas Series "Stories are wondrous things. And they are dangerous." Native novelist and scholar Thomas King explores how stories shape who we are and how we understand and interact with other people. From creation stories to personal experiences, historical anecdotes to social injustices, racist propaganda to works of contemporary Native literature, King probes Native culture's deep ties to storytelling. For more information, including an excerpt and the table of contents, visit the book's webpage: http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/K/king_truth.html Sign up to receive news on the latest releases from University of Minnesota Press: http://www.upress.umn.edu/eform.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Apr 26 15:05:10 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:05:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class References: Message-ID: <001f01c54a92$e0e5e2d0$7201a8c0@MoleHQ> Link doesn't work. Can you post the story? Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class > Here's the link: > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050425/ap_on_re_us/threatened_ > by_poetry > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Apr 26 15:09:27 2005 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:09:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class Message-ID: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEABC@URANIUM.ripon.college> University Class Bars Student Over Poem Mon Apr 25, 7:06 PM ET By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer NEW HAVEN, Conn. - Southern Connecticut State University barred a student from a poetry class after his professor said a poem he submitted contained veiled threats to sexually assault her and her 3-year-old daughter. AP Photo The student, Edward Bolles, said his poem entitled "Professor White," was meant to be a satirical piece about globalization. In it, a Mexican student named Juan has a sexual encounter with the daughter of his white professor. Bolles' professor, Kelly Ritter, found the poem "disturbing," according to an April 8 campus police report, and said she believed the poem was a threat. University officials prohibited Bolles, who is Mexican, from attending his poetry class while he was investigated. Bolles, a 36-year-old married father of two, said he and Ritter have had political disagreements in class. Bolles, a conservative, said he has disagreed with some of the liberal political themes in Ritter's poetry selections. The same is true of the Bolles' poetic character, who pledges to "turn the tables" on his professor and has a tryst with her college-age daughter. While Bolles' acknowledges that Ritter inspired the poem, he said it was not a threat and said he did not know she had a daughter. "I think she flatters herself," Bolles said Monday. "This poem is about a lot more than a cranky teacher. It's about anti-globalization." Ritter, 36, did not return telephone messages seeking comment. Bolles said the poem's interracial affair symbolizes white America's feeling that Mexicans are corrupting their culture. The encounter is not violent, and the professor's daughter brings Juan home to meet her disapproving mother. "I came in using a different set of reasoning as context to look at the craft of poetry, and she was put off by it," Bolles said. The poem ends with the professor trying to get Juan kicked out of school by calling one of his poems racist. Bolles began publicly protesting the university's decision Monday, wearing a "Save Professor White" shirt and handing out fliers on campus. After that protest began and university officials received calls from The Associated Press Monday, Bolles received a hand-delivered, one-sentence letter from the administration: "As a result of the investigation, I wish to inform you that no formal disciplinary charges will be filed on behalf of the university and you are permitted to return to your English 202, Section 1, course, Introduction to Poetry," Christopher Piscitelli, director of judicial affairs, wrote. University spokesman Patrick Dilger said the matter was handled like any other. He said students are often held out of classes when a professor raises these types of concerns. In her police report, Ritter asked the university to require Bolles to get a psychiatric evaluation. The school did not require that, Dilger said. Bolles is set to return to class Wednesday, though he doesn't know how he will be received. He said he would not apologize and is concerned with how he will make up the two weeks of missed classes. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of The Old Mole > Reply To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:05 PM > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: > Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class > > Link doesn't work. Can you post the story? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:38 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class > > > > Here's the link: > > > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050425/ap_on_re_us/threatened_ > > by_poetry > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 15:42:50 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:42:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Fiction Listserv Message-ID: <731bb17a05042612424aca9874@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know of a contemporary fiction listserv? I've learned so much and found out so much here about contemporary poetry--I wonder if such a list exists in the prose world. Google doesn't help me. I'm looking for recommendations. Thanks in advance, Jeff Newberry -- "Poetry lies its way to the truth." --John Ciardi Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com Tue Apr 26 18:16:43 2005 From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:16:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Scarlet A-word Message-ID: <200504262219.j3QMJF0B024607@d01av01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your file: NEW-POET NOTE of: 04/25 17:08:22 *************** I didn't find Silliman's exposition of the inaccessible poem any more accessible than the poem. Rather, it was one more example of the LangPo stance: praise your meta-viewpoint, disparage all else. But what the hell, who needs to go there. Richard From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 26 21:25:52 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:25:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 'Ratzo' Ratzinger In-Reply-To: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEABC@URANIUM.ripon.college> References: <30CA3ED510E3BE4C9E3C15ADC8603F690AEABC@URANIUM.ripon.college> Message-ID: <426EEA20.4090500@ix.netcom.com> */ The Assassinated Press /* Neil Bush, Pope 'Ratzo' Ratzinger Confederates In Money Making Scam: Bush Banged The Asian Hookers But The Pope Swears He Was Down In the Cocktail Lounge At the Time Having A Bloody Mary: Neil Bush Continues Bush Family's Long History Of Business Dealings With The Nazis: President's younger brother served with then-cardinal on board of secretive ecumenical slush fund: Pope 'Ratzo' Or Benedict XVI Associated The Social And Political Upheaval Of The Sixties With Totalitarianism Which Proves He's An Idiot, Apparently With That Priestly Bitterness That Comes From Not Participating In The World And The Bewildering Ignorance And Murderous Projections That Ensue: Cognitive Scientists Try To Determine Which Ass Follicles Gave Rise To Pope's 'Thinking': Ratzinger Said He Prayed He Would Not To Be Elected Pope; He Was Afraid The Pictures Would Show Up: BY KNUKE ROISE AND TOMB BRINE ASSASSINATED PRESS WASHINGTON BUREAU AND NIGHTSTAND April 21, 2005 http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ WASHINGTON, DC -- Neil Bush, the president's younger brother and a poster boy for the criminally elite, six years ago joined the cardinal who this week became Pope Benedict XVI as a founding board member of a secret known Swiss ecumenical foundation account. The charter members of the board were all well-known international religious figures, except for the ubiquitous international sinner Bush and his confederate and business partner, Jamal "Fair Weather' Daniel, whose family has extensive holdings in the United States and Switzerland, public records show. This has aroused suspicion that the foundation was seeking access to Bush family business ties while Neil Bush had the opportunity to observe international criminal figures like 'Ratzo' Ratzinger close up and personal in order to avoid the missteps which have plagued his criminal career in the past. "Who ever thinks of the Pope as interpol bait," laughed George Bush Sr. in a BBC interview last year. "Those fuckers let the Jews die; let gays die; John Paul II, The People's Prop, stood by while that mental cripple, Reagan, and I murdered thousands of Latin American Catholics, all to protect the Churches money and land. Did anybody in authority say 'Boo?' Fuck no. Too much power resides in the Vatican. They got a thousand saints that are certifiable wack jobs. But if you say squat against them they'll label you a fruitcake before the pan is greased." The Foundation for Interreligious, International Communications, and Intercultural Research and Dialogue was founded in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1999 to promote ecumenical understanding, money laundering and to publish original religious texts, said a foundation official. International Communications is a legal phrase for wiring money because among the very wealthy all communication involves money and transactions are carried out in something called 'fungible Esperanto.' Besides then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, founding board members included Rene-Samuel Sirat, the former chief rabbi of France before he was fired; Jordan's Prince Hassan, a Muslim dedicated to religious dialogue and international exchange rates; the late Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan, another prominent Muslim; Olivier 'Fats' Fatio, director of the Institute of the History of Post-Reformation Religious Land Seizure; and foundation president Metropolitan 'A Train' Damaskinos, a Greek Orthodox leader who won a Nobel Prize in economics for his textbook "The Game Theory Of Tithing and." Gary Vachicouras, a theologian and foundation official in Geneva, would not explain in a telephone interview yesterday why Bush, who has no clear public connection to religious causes, was on the first board. "He was interested at that particular time," said Vachicouras of Bush. But like some other initial board members, once the deals were done, Bush was no longer involved, Vachicouras said. Under a cloud of suspicion, Ratzinger also left a few years ago and was replaced by Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, who is responsible for ecumenical accounts for the Vatican, said Vachicouras. Still active is Daniel, a Syrian American who has family active in the Orthodox Church in Geneva, said Vachicouras. "This is an Orthodox lay person," he said. "Perhaps you should ask Mr. Daniel what quid pro quo the foundation brokered for Cheney and the French to get Syria to leave Lebanon exposed to its former colonial power. Neither Bush, now president of the semtext based educational software company Ignite! Learning, based in Austin, Texas, nor Daniel returned calls for comment. The companies logo reads "A Mind Is Not The Only Thing We Waste At Ignite." In his highly publicized divorce last year, Bush revealed he and Daniel are co-chairs of Texas-based Crest Investment Co., which pays him $60,000 a year for riding on the outside strapped to its test projectiles. Recently, Crest Investment officials used Bush's name as a bribe in cutting an exclusive deal with Texas officials on construction of a liquid natural gas storage facility for Iraqi natural gas that will guarantee Crest payments of at least $2 million a year, according to the Los Angeles Times. In the divorce proceedings, Bush also revealed that while he was in a hotel in Asia, women on at least three occasions came into his room and had sex with him. Bush subsequently married two of them. Daniel hosted Bush's the second wedding at his home in Tehran. Fr. 'Ratzo' Ratzinger was reportedly on the junket, but claimed to be hearing confessions from bell-hops and bus boys in a stall in the 6th floor men's room while Bush was banging the whores. Bush subsequently accepted an invitation to pitch his deal to Rome finding the altar boys supplied directly to his Vatican rooms too much of a temptation. Daniel reportedly sought out Bush's acquaintance in 1991, the year the federal Office of Thrift Supervision sanctioned Bush for having "multiple conflicts of interest" in his role as a director of Silverado Savings and Loan, a Colorado thrift whose failure cost taxpayers $1.3 billion. Bush paid $50,000 in a settlement. "Bush was typical of the thieves in his family except perhaps Jeb. He needed somebody with a brain to keep them out of jail in exchange for all that family influence the Prescott Bush generated by showing such loyalty to the Nazis. That impressed a lot of anti-communists and bankers in the State Department and intelligence." The foundation, based at the Orthodox Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Geneva, is listed by Dun & Bradstreet business credit reports as a management trust for purposes other than education, religion, charity or research. But Vachicouras said the designation must be a mistake of translation to English because the foundation is a private nonprofit established under Swiss law. He said that "now that the foundation is been ratted out, it would be "relaunched" on its mission to publish the original text of the Bible's Old Testament in Hebrew, its New Testament in Greek and the Quran in Arabic, but that Pope 'Ratzo' is not happy about this setback so early in his dynasty. Fatio, who left the board three years ago, said the foundation "never had any money. We were still paying off the Americans for the BCCI & BNL cover-ups. And cutting our losses from financing terrorists in Latin America through the World Anti-Communist League, Nugen-Hand Bank and Iran-contra." Vachicouras declined to discuss finances further. He said, "We keep a low profile because that's how criminals operate." From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 26 23:13:28 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:13:28 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <426D26CE.13392.253A93A@localhost> Message-ID: <008e01c54ad7$15d371d0$fb032cd9@Robin> God, the trouble I've taken to work this out, you wouldn't *believe* ... :-( It would have *helped* if Marcus had quoted correctly in the first place ... NOT "Tout aux tavernes et aux fiells" (which is utter nonsense, even in medieval French) but "Tout aux tavernes et aux filles" -- booze and girls. The line, "Tout aux tavernes et aux filles," is the refrain-line from the Ballade de bonne doctrine, beginning "Car ou soies porteur de bulles ... " from late in Villon's +The Testament+ (ll. 1692 ff.). Why W.E.Henley (the original Northing Tramp) chose to overlay a perfectly straightforward ballade with a set of English idioms more appropriate to Villon's thieves' slang poems than anything in +The Testament+ still itches my brain. Perhaps Marcus in his wisdom has an answer to this? Robin Hamilton > Villon's Straight Tip to All Cros Coves > "Tout aux tavernes et aux fiells" > WE Henley > > Suppose you screeve? Or go cheap-jack? > Or fake the broads? Or fig a nag? > Or thimble-rig? Or knap a yack? > Or pitch a snide? Or smash a rag? > Suppose you duff? Or nose and lag? > Or get the straight, and land your pot? > How do you melt the multy swag? > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > Fiddle, or fence, or mace, or mack: > Or moskeneer, or flash the drag; > Dead-lurk a crib, or do a crack; > Pad with a slang, or chuck a fag; > Bonnet, or tout, or mump and gag; > Rattle the tats, or mark the spot; > You cannot bag a single stag; > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > Suppose you try a different tack, > And on the square you flash your flag? > At penny-a-lining make your whack, > Or with the mummers mug and gag? > For nix, for nix the dibbs you bag! > At any graft, no matter what, > Your merry goblins soon stravag: > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > Envoi: > It's up the spout and Charley Wag > With wipes and tickers and what not > Until the squeezer nips your scrag, > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From acgold01 at louisville.edu Wed Apr 27 00:43:58 2005 From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:43:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Funny farm Message-ID: "There was this strange sixties record -- who the hell recorded it?" My memory is that it was recorded under the name of "Napoleon Bonaparte." Who the name was behind the name I have no idea. Equally dated, Alan From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Apr 27 02:18:23 2005 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:18:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Funny farm Message-ID: <200504270456.j3R4uTqi066158@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> oh you mean Napolean XIV chris, (who will back up mr. golding on piano when he's drunk enough to want to sing anytime...) ---------- >From: "Alan C Golding" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] Funny farm >Date: Tue, Apr 26, 2005, 8:43 PM > > "There was this strange sixties record -- who the hell recorded it?" > > My memory is that it was recorded under the name of "Napoleon Bonaparte." > Who the name was behind the name I have no idea. > > Equally dated, > > Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Wed Apr 27 08:23:56 2005 From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:23:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Funny farm References: <200504270456.j3R4uTqi066158@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <001201c54b23$fe1b7cc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Which they wouldn't play on "Your Hits of the Week" because it made fun of the mentally ill. They would mention that this week it was number 26, and then pass on to the next one. Tad Richards www.opus40.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Stroffolino " To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Funny farm > oh you mean Napolean XIV > > chris, > > (who will back up mr. golding on piano when he's drunk enough to want to > sing anytime...) > > > > > ---------- >>From: "Alan C Golding" >>To: >>Subject: [New-Poetry] Funny farm >>Date: Tue, Apr 26, 2005, 8:43 PM >> > >> "There was this strange sixties record -- who the hell recorded it?" >> >> My memory is that it was recorded under the name of "Napoleon Bonaparte." >> Who the name was behind the name I have no idea. >> >> Equally dated, >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 27 08:31:25 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:31:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon In-Reply-To: <008e01c54ad7$15d371d0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost> On 27 Apr 2005 at 4:13, Robin Hamilton wrote: > God, the trouble I've taken to work this out, you wouldn't *believe* > It would have *helped* if Marcus had quoted correctly in the first > place ... > NOT "Tout aux tavernes et aux fiells" (which is utter nonsense, even > in medieval French) but "Tout aux tavernes et aux filles" -- booze and > girls.< Right, sorry for the typo. > The line, "Tout aux tavernes et aux filles," is the refrain-line from > the Ballade de bonne doctrine, beginning "Car ou soies porteur de > bulles ... " from late in Villon's +The Testament+ (ll. 1692 ff.). > Why W.E.Henley (the original Northing Tramp) chose to overlay a > perfectly straightforward ballade with a set of English idioms more > appropriate to Villon's thieves' slang poems than anything in +The > Testament+ still itches my brain.< But that's the point, in the context of Grumman's claim that no one before Cummings had done anything in English that was "contragenteel". Graham offered Rochester, too. Grumman is not deterred by evidence; he just re-defines his terms in mid-stream and pretends that he meant something else by "contragenteel" than anything merely deliberately not genteel. Henley was just having fun with Villon, with English, and with gentility. > > Villon's Straight Tip to All Cros Coves > > "Tout aux tavernes et aux filles" > > WE Henley > > > > Suppose you screeve? Or go cheap-jack? > > Or fake the broads? Or fig a nag? > > Or thimble-rig? Or knap a yack? > > Or pitch a snide? Or smash a rag? > > Suppose you duff? Or nose and lag? > > Or get the straight, and land your pot? > > How do you melt the multy swag? > > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > > > Fiddle, or fence, or mace, or mack: > > Or moskeneer, or flash the drag; > > Dead-lurk a crib, or do a crack; > > Pad with a slang, or chuck a fag; > > Bonnet, or tout, or mump and gag; > > Rattle the tats, or mark the spot; > > You cannot bag a single stag; > > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > > > Suppose you try a different tack, > > And on the square you flash your flag? > > At penny-a-lining make your whack, > > Or with the mummers mug and gag? > > For nix, for nix the dibbs you bag! > > At any graft, no matter what, > > Your merry goblins soon stravag: > > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > > > Envoi: > > It's up the spout and Charley Wag > > With wipes and tickers and what not > > Until the squeezer nips your scrag, > > Booze and the blowens cop the lot. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 27 09:33:42 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:33:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost> Message-ID: <018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin> Marcus: > Right, sorry for the typo. Accepted. > But that's the point, in the context of Grumman's claim that no one > before Cummings had done anything in English that was > "contragenteel". Point, but if you wanted to quote a Villon (who isn't, anyway, English) poem which is contra-genteel, why didn't you quote one of the thieves' slang ones rather than a bit from +The Testament+ (which sent me haring off in entirely the wrong direction)? Also, almost all of the slang in Henley's "translation" (and he was a real tramp, got his legs sliced off when he was riding the rails when he left them dangling and a car-door closed suddenly, so he turned to poetry) is Henley (authentic -- he did it by ear rather than from dictionaries, though I think there's a mix of both in the text you cited), not Villon. Compare Henley's translation with the Villon original. But there's a cascade of points here. (1) If Bob was suggesting that there's nothing before cummings/Bukoski that's contra-genteel, then it's platitudinous to challenge his remark and we can all (as I'm sure Bob could do too) think of 95 counter examples off the top of our heads. (Though I think he was making a slightly more complicated point.) (2) Villon is one obvious case (3) ... but if you want to cite Villon in this area, cite the right text. (4) And if you cite a Villon text, for christ's sake, separate the original from what a translator does to it. As to contra-genteel, what about the medieval Scottish poet, William Dunbar? A damn sight filthier at times than Rochester. Robin All that aside, and as I hadn't encountered the Henley poem before Marcus quoted it [for which much thanks, Marcus], there are a whole set of rather interesting issues around this. R. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 27 09:47:31 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:47:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon Message-ID: <99.5d5141e5.2fa0f1f3@cs.com> In a message dated 4/27/2005 8:34:42 AM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > Also, almost all of the slang in Henley's "translation" (and he was a real > tramp, got his legs sliced off when he was riding the rails when he left > them dangling and a car-door closed suddenly, so he turned to poetry) is > Henley (authentic -- he did it by ear rather than from dictionaries, though > I think there's a mix of both in the text you cited), not Villon. Henley was crippled lumbar tuberculosis. http://www.answers.com/topic/william-henley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 27 09:53:17 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:53:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon Message-ID: <1ec.39e9fd67.2fa0f34d@cs.com> In a message dated 4/27/2005 8:47:55 AM Central Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > > Henley was crippled lumbar tuberculosis. > > http://www.answers.com/topic/william-henley > I meant, "from lumbar tuberculosis." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Wed Apr 27 10:06:30 2005 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050427140630.36933.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> I think that if we have free speech then we might as well use it. Does this mean that we can yell offensive things at ethnic minorities/the disabled/women etc etc I advise you to write to your nrst JP for the answer. I'm advised that we have free speech in this country. The dictionary says that free means available at any time, unending etc etc. I take this to mean that I can say anything I want to anyone at any time. I don't have to go any farther, also I'm not listening to your foamings/rants/diatribes either because I know that your saying that 'yes you do have the right to free speech, but.....' You have the right to free speech but you don't. --- Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > I don't care if its offensive. let's say that one > > man's offence is another man's preference. > > I think that's wildly simplistic, Paul. > > I wrote a poem once, mostly about Jack the Ripper, > which contained a line > (about a dog peeing against a fire-hydrant) with the > words, "a quick spastic > dribble". > > To me, that had no connotations other than simple > muscle movement, and it > got published in a Respectable US Magazine. > > But I read it once to an audience which contained a > kid (one of my students) > whose younger brother was a spastic. > > He made the quite correct point to me after the > reading that what I'd > written *was* offensive -- not p-c, not loaded, but > that quite simply > "spastic" as a term couldn't be used in a neutral > fashion. > > Despite that my heart was (I think) pure on this > issue, I had to agree he > was right. > > It didn't bloody *matter* (from my point of view) > that that I'd intended no > offence -- what I had written was objectively and > indefensibly offensive. > > I don't think you can ignore offence quite so > glibly. > > Robin > > > boobs doesn't disturb me, so too bristols, tits, > > they're all the same > > just words. I am profoundly at odds with > political > > correctness suspecting it of being a new or other > form > > of Totalitarianism. I think we should be free to > > choose what we say, preferring rather than being > > compelled. I'm prepared to say absolutely > anything if > > just for the pleasure and right to say it. So > take > > your political correctness and stick it! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 27 10:35:20 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:35:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Golden Dawn In-Reply-To: <20050427140630.36933.qmail@web40427.mail.yahoo.com> References: 6667 Message-ID: <426F6AE8.3999.DCF082@localhost> Free speech in the US is limited in a number of legal ways, as well as by the legal principle of "time and place" by which we are forbidden to falsely yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, for example. But mostly what free speech means in the US is the freedom to criticize the government, not to shout demeaning slurs at one's neighbors. Marcus On 27 Apr 2005 at 7:06, Paul Murphy wrote: > I think that if we have free speech then we might as > well use it. > Does this mean that we can yell offensive things at > ethnic minorities/the disabled/women etc etc > I advise you to write to your nrst JP for the answer. > I'm advised that we have free speech in this country. > The dictionary says that free means available at any > time, unending etc etc. I take this to mean that I > can say anything I want to anyone at any time. I > don't have to go any farther, also I'm not listening > to your foamings/rants/diatribes either because I know > that your saying that 'yes you do have the right to > free speech, but.....' > You have the right to free speech but you don't. > > --- Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > From: "Paul Murphy" > > > > > I don't care if its offensive. let's say that one > > > man's offence is another man's preference. > > > > I think that's wildly simplistic, Paul. > > > > I wrote a poem once, mostly about Jack the Ripper, > > which contained a line > > (about a dog peeing against a fire-hydrant) with the > > words, "a quick spastic > > dribble". > > > > To me, that had no connotations other than simple > > muscle movement, and it > > got published in a Respectable US Magazine. > > > > But I read it once to an audience which contained a > > kid (one of my students) > > whose younger brother was a spastic. > > > > He made the quite correct point to me after the > > reading that what I'd > > written *was* offensive -- not p-c, not loaded, but > > that quite simply > > "spastic" as a term couldn't be used in a neutral > > fashion. > > > > Despite that my heart was (I think) pure on this > > issue, I had to agree he > > was right. > > > > It didn't bloody *matter* (from my point of view) > > that that I'd intended no > > offence -- what I had written was objectively and > > indefensibly offensive. > > > > I don't think you can ignore offence quite so > > glibly. > > > > Robin > > > > > boobs doesn't disturb me, so too bristols, tits, > > > they're all the same > > > just words. I am profoundly at odds with > > political > > > correctness suspecting it of being a new or other > > form > > > of Totalitarianism. I think we should be free to > > > choose what we say, preferring rather than being > > > compelled. I'm prepared to say absolutely > > anything if > > > just for the pleasure and right to say it. So > > take > > > your political correctness and stick it! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 27 10:49:28 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:49:28 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <1ec.39e9fd67.2fa0f34d@cs.com> Message-ID: <01f101c54b38$50d64a80$fb032cd9@Robin> Rsgwynn said: Henley was crippled lumbar tuberculosis. http://www.answers.com/topic/william-henley I meant, "from lumbar tuberculosis." I wish you hadn't contradicted me on how Henley lost his legs -- I prefer myth to reality here. For once. The Freemartin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Apr 27 05:14:47 2005 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:14:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class In-Reply-To: <001f01c54a92$e0e5e2d0$7201a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: On 4/26/05 2:05 PM, "The Old Mole" wrote: > Link doesn't work. Can you post the story? > > > Tad Richards > www.opus40.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:38 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class > > >> Here's the link: >> >> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050425/ap_on_re_us/threatened_ >> by_poetry >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > I'll try, Tad. Paul --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 27 12:23:48 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:23:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon In-Reply-To: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost> References: <008e01c54ad7$15d371d0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <426F8454.17488.1403E06@localhost> > Marcus: > > But that's the point, in the context of Grumman's claim that no > > one before Cummings had done anything in English that was > > "contragenteel". On 27 Apr 2005 at 14:28, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Point, but if you wanted to quote a Villon (who isn't, anyway, > English) poem which is contra-genteel, why didn't you quote one of > the thieves' slang ones rather than a bit from +The Testament+ > (which sent me haring off in entirely the wrong direction)? Because Cummings was fluent in French and would have known both Villon's thieves' cant and Testatament poems, not to mention Henley's piece wich was famous in its time. The point I was making to Grumman is that he can't simply assert that Cummings was the first to write contragenteel poetry, because Cummings would have known his Villon and his Henley -- not to mention his Aristophanes, Martial, and Catullus, to say nothing of Rochester and Byron. > Also, almost all of the slang in Henley's "translation" (and he was > a real tramp, got his legs sliced off when he was riding the rails > when he left them dangling and a car-door closed suddenly, so he > turned to poetry) is Henley (authentic -- he did it by ear rather > than from dictionaries, though I think there's a mix of both in the > text you cited), not Villon.< So much the better for my point. > (1) If Bob was suggesting that there's nothing before > cummings/Bukoski > that's contra-genteel, then it's platitudinous to challenge his > remark and we can all (as I'm sure Bob could do too) think of 95 > counter examples off the top of our heads. (Though I think he was > making a slightly more complicated point.)< Well, then, he should make the slightly mor complicated point, because he has a habit of making statements that are platitudinous as if they were to be taken as significant. I challenge his platitudes and he calls me names. It's a sort of game. > As to contra-genteel, what about the medieval Scottish poet, > William Dunbar? A damn sight filthier at times than Rochester.< Well, the French and the Scots got along all right so long as they were both fighting the English, so Cummings might have known Dunbar, too -- which again argues against Grumman's point. > All that aside, and as I hadn't encountered the Henley poem before > Marcus quoted it [for which much thanks, Marcus], there are a whole > set of rather interesting issues around this. Any time. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 27 16:03:55 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:03:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost> <018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > (1) If Bob was suggesting that there's nothing before cummings/Bukoski > that's contra-genteel, then it's platitudinous to challenge his remark and > we can all (as I'm sure Bob could do too) think of 95 counter examples off > the top of our heads. (Though I think he was making a slightly more > complicated point.) Yes. Here's what I said that started this nonsense: "While thinking about Cummings this time around, I've begun wondering where he stands with respect to what I call contragenteel poetry of the kind Bukowski finally dominated. Was he first in that, too--I mean with rowdy, sometimes obscene, ungrammatical but serious poetry? If not, who was?" Note the word, "contragenteel." This is a word from my schools of poetry essay that's on the net at About Poetry. I definie it there (unrigorously) as follows: CONTRA-GENTEEL POETRY All the "unrefined" plain-writing poets inspired by W.C. Williams, Frank O'Hara, the Beats, Bukowski. (Note:I include the social identity poets in this school -- but, of course, many poets, particularly the social identity poets, are in more than one group -- Maya Angelou, for instance, seems to me at times Mainstream, and at times Contra-Genteel.) The main sub-schools I know of are: 1.. Conversationalist Poetry (e.g., O'Hara) 2.. Beat Poetry (e.g., Corso, Bukowski), with several sub-divisions 3.. Social Identity Poetry (e.g., Wanda Coleman, the Vietnam stuff Kali Tal is pushing) (This group is an expansion of what I previously was calling "Ethnic Poetry.") 4.. Pop-Rhyme, which sudivides into Rap and the Neo-James-Whitcomb-Reilly School (Yes, I need a less condescending name for this group -- and probably for the Iowa-Workshop school.) 5.. Wild-Woman Poetry (e.g., Townsend) (Another name that could be improved.) In my query I said a few things about it to give people an idea of what I was talking about, not to definitively describe it. My interest, as should have been obvious from the start to anyone not simply trying to pin a gotcha on me, is in finding out if Cummings may not have been important in starting this school. It would certainly have fore-runners in every previous literature, but I truly doubt if anything like it was done before. It's free verse, for one thing. It's extremely direct. Unarty. And it's THIS school--American, 20th-century--that it should be obvious I'm interested in. Even though I didn't spell it out. Henley, Villon, Catullus, Rochester, Byron, etc., did not write contragenteel poetry as I define it. (And I did not redefinie it, merely clarified it.) That previous non-American poets wrote stuff you might call contragenteel is clear, but no contemporary school was directly inspired by their poems. Finally, I'm not trying to pile credits up for Cummings, just wondering where he was in the coming about of contragenteel poetry. --Bob G. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Wed Apr 27 16:46:45 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:46:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon In-Reply-To: <011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost> <018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin> <011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <10596303.1114634805796.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, April 27, 2005, at 04:06PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> (1) If Bob was suggesting that there's nothing before cummings/Bukoski >> that's contra-genteel, then it's platitudinous to challenge his remark and >> we can all (as I'm sure Bob could do too) think of 95 counter examples off >> the top of our heads. (Though I think he was making a slightly more >> complicated point.) > >Yes. Here's what I said that started this nonsense: > >"While thinking about Cummings this time around, I've begun wondering where >he stands with respect to what I call contragenteel poetry of the kind >Bukowski finally dominated. Was he first in that, too--I mean with rowdy, >sometimes obscene, ungrammatical but serious poetry? If not, who was?" > >Note the word, "contragenteel." This is a word from my schools of poetry >essay that's on the net at About Poetry. I definie it there (unrigorously) >as follows: > >CONTRA-GENTEEL POETRY > >All the "unrefined" plain-writing poets inspired by W.C. Williams, Frank >O'Hara, the Beats, Bukowski. (Note:I include the social identity poets in >this school -- but, of course, many poets, particularly the social identity >poets, are in more than one group -- Maya Angelou, for instance, seems to me >at times Mainstream, and at times Contra-Genteel.) The main sub-schools I >know of are: > > > 1.. Conversationalist Poetry (e.g., O'Hara) > 2.. Beat Poetry (e.g., Corso, Bukowski), with several sub-divisions > 3.. Social Identity Poetry (e.g., Wanda Coleman, the Vietnam stuff Kali >Tal is pushing) (This group is an expansion of what I previously was calling >"Ethnic Poetry.") > 4.. Pop-Rhyme, which sudivides into Rap and the Neo-James-Whitcomb-Reilly >School (Yes, I need a less condescending name for this group -- and probably >for the Iowa-Workshop school.) > 5.. Wild-Woman Poetry (e.g., Townsend) (Another name that could be >improved.) >In my query I said a few things about it to give people an idea of what I >was talking about, not to definitively describe it. My interest, as should >have been obvious from the start to anyone not simply trying to pin a gotcha >on me, is in finding out if Cummings may not have been important in starting >this school. It would certainly have fore-runners in every previous >literature, but I truly doubt if anything like it was done before. It's >free verse, for one thing. It's extremely direct. Unarty. > >And it's THIS school--American, 20th-century--that it should be obvious I'm >interested in. Even though I didn't spell it out. > >Henley, Villon, Catullus, Rochester, Byron, etc., did not write >contragenteel poetry as I define it. (And I did not redefinie it, merely >clarified it.) That previous non-American poets wrote stuff you might call >contragenteel is clear, but no contemporary school was directly inspired by >their poems. > >Finally, I'm not trying to pile credits up for Cummings, just wondering >where he was in the coming about of contragenteel poetry. > >--Bob G. > You seem to be asking whether Cummings was among the first of the American poets who survived into the 20th century to ruffle feathers with plain or rough language or "low" subjects. In other words, was he among the first semi-modern American who did what at least some poets in nearly every era and language we know about have done. Not a very interesting question, and the answer is no, even granting that Whitman died a little too soon. Chaucer's Summoner's tale was rougher and lower than anything Cummings ever did--and, as Tim Steele has said, Chaucer is the only real New Formalist in English (no claim at all about Scots, Robin). ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 27 18:17:42 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:17:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost><018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin><011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <10596303.1114634805796.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <01b401c54b76$ef119c20$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > In other words, was he among the first semi-modern Americans who did what > at least some poets in nearly every era and language we know about have > done. Not a very interesting question, and the answer is no, even granting that Whitman died a little too soon. > > Chaucer's Summoner's tale was rougher and lower than anything Cummings > ever did--and, as Tim Steele has said, Chaucer is the only real New > Formalist in English (no claim at all about Scots, Robin). No, it looks like the answer is yes. Whitman did not write contragenteel poetry, nor--certainly--did Chaucer. They wrote stuff you can declaim. I really have two questions. Who first wrote contragenteel poetry in English, using the unrigorous definition of contragenteel in what I quoted from my About Poetry article, and who first took contragenteel poetry what would seem to be the final step into slang/obscenity/undeclamatorability--as Cummings probably did not. He fits somewhere into the picture, though. --Bob G. From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 21:24:25 2005 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:24:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon In-Reply-To: <01b401c54b76$ef119c20$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost> <018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin> <011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <10596303.1114634805796.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <01b401c54b76$ef119c20$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <731bb17a0504271824d038b08@mail.gmail.com> Bob, have you ever read any Whitman or Chaucer? *And* considered them in their contexts? Jeff Newberry On 4/27/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > In other words, was he among the first semi-modern Americans who did > what > > at least some poets in nearly every era and language we know about have > > done. > Not a very interesting question, and the answer is no, even granting that > Whitman died a little too soon. > > > > Chaucer's Summoner's tale was rougher and lower than anything Cummings > > ever did--and, as Tim Steele has said, Chaucer is the only real New > > Formalist in English (no claim at all about Scots, Robin). > > No, it looks like the answer is yes. Whitman did not write contragenteel > poetry, nor--certainly--did Chaucer. They wrote stuff you can declaim. > > I really have two questions. Who first wrote contragenteel poetry in > English, using the unrigorous definition of contragenteel in what I quoted > from my About Poetry article, and who first took contragenteel poetry what > would seem to be the final step into > slang/obscenity/undeclamatorability--as > Cummings probably did not. He fits somewhere into the picture, though. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 27 22:14:33 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:14:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hospitable poems Message-ID: Reading An Anthology Of Chinese Poems Of The Sung Dynasty, I Pause To Admire The Length And Clarity Of Their Titles It seems these poets have nothing up their ample sleeves they turn over so many cards so early, telling us before the first line whether it is wet or dry, night or day, the season the man is standing in, even how much he has had to drink. Maybe it is autumn and he is looking at a sparrow. Maybe it is snowing on a town with a beautiful name. "Viewing Peonies at the Temple of Good Fortune on a Cloudy Afternoon" is one of Sun Tung Po's. "Dipping Water from the River and Simmering Tea" is another one, or just "On a Boat, Awake at Night." And Lu Yu takes the simple rice cake with "In a Boat on a Summer Evening I Heard the Cry of a Waterbird. It Was Very Sad and Seemed To Be Saying My Woman Is Cruel --Moved, I Wrote This Poem." There is no iron turnstile to push against here as with headings like "Vortex on a String," "The Horn of Neurosis," or whatever. No confusingly inscribed welcome mat to puzzle over. Instead, "I Walk Out on a Summer Morning to the Sound of Birds and a Waterfall" is a beaded curtain brushing over my shoulders. And "Ten Days of Spring Rain Have Kept Me Indoors" is a servant who shows me into the room where a poet with a thin beard is sitting on a mat with a jug of wine whispering something about clouds and cold wind, about sickness and the loss of friends. How easy he has made it for me to enter here, to sit down in a corner, cross my legs like his, and listen. --Billy Collins. *Sailing Alone Around the Room: New & Selected Poems*. Random House, 2001. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 27 22:57:42 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:57:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News brief from *The Onion* Message-ID: National Poetry Month Raises Awareness Of Poetry Prevention NEW YORK?This month marks the 10th National Poetry Month, a campaign created in 1996 to raise public awareness of the growing problem of poetry. "We must stop this scourge before more lives are exposed to poetry," said Dr. John Nieman of the American Poetry Prevention Society at a Monday fundraising luncheon. "It doesn't just affect women. Young people, particularly morose high-school and college students, are very susceptible to this terrible affliction. It is imperative that we eradicate poetry now, before more rainy afternoons are lost to it." Nieman said some early signs of poetry infection include increased self-absorption and tea consumption. --*The Onion* ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 27 23:01:41 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:01:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jerry Lewis and The Rise of French Psycho-analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42705215.4050501@ix.netcom.com> */Let's take the rich man's money. Let's take the rich man's money. Let's take the rich man's money today. /* */Oh! Let's take the rich man's money. Let's take the rich man's money. Let's take the rich man's money away. /* */Let's take the rich man's money. Let's take the rich man's money. A Message From the Florida NRA. /* */The Assassinated Press/* New Florida Gun Law Allows Wide-Ranging Targets: Stealing Pensions, Product Liability, Insider Trading, Looting The National Treasury, Lying About WMD And Sending Kin To Die Would Be Sufficient Provocation For Use Of Firearms Under New Florida Gun Law: Jeb Bush Law Retroactive And Florida Electorate Eager To Gun Down Corporate Criminals And Their Pols Who Have Already Provided Provocation: Sibling Rivalry: Jeb Declares Open Season On Mentally Challenged Brother By JEFFEY LUBE The Assassinated Press Friday, March 25, 2005 http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Tallahassee, FL---A bill encouraging the use of deadly force during a home invasion, say, a couple of bible thumpers at your door at supper time, phone solicitations while your fuckin' the baby sitter or a Kindasleezie Rice press conference, or when an individual considers themselves threatened by sinister circumstances such as denial of pension benefits from a company looted by its CEO's or a loved one killed because of administration lies about Iraq unanimously passed the Florida Senate on Wednesday. "Shit! I just bought fresh ammunition," chuckled Jack 'Spanky' Phlange. "I'm 81 on a fixed income and got lung cancer. My wife is blind. I lost everything when that Kenny Boy Lay buddy of G.W. Bush looted Enron. So's me and about 200 other victims of Lay are gonna offer that inflated shitbag an honorarium to speak at our nursing home. Then when he starts to run his mouth we're gonna open up on him, 200 twelve gauges. We're gonna make kibbles oughta that Texas asshole. Then I'm gonna settle some scores with Detroit, Monsanto and the State of New Jersey 'bout this lung cancer." "I pushed for this gun law ever since Cheney, Rumsfeld and that group of asslickers they called the military brass sent my boy off to die with their cocksuckin' lies. Legally I'm free to take those cocksuckers out, long as I does it in the great state of Florida. And they gotta come down here sooner or later. This is where the Iraq command center is, 'bout 14,000 miles away from the front lines where they think they's safe. Well, that all just changed, baby." The measure (SB 436) would eliminate criminal penalties for an individual who uses deadly force in self-protection of his home or vehicle and OTHER UNSPECIFIED CIRCUMSTANCES. "I like that last one, 'other unspecified circumstances,'" said Butch Akers. "Bernie Ebbers blew my pension on blow jobs and summer homes. My Worldcom 401Ks worth about $80.00. Bernie very definitely oughta head down to Florida for a visit." The Senate passed the gun measure, supported by the National Rifle Association, on a 38-0 vote just moments after it defeated a proposal that might have cleared the way for Terri Schiavo's feeding tube to be reinserted. "Now, I'm a very impatient person. I suffer from ADD. And if someone don't respond to me, I take immediate offense. Now, if I'd a gunned down Terri Schiavo 'cause she wouldn't talk to me, Jeb Bush says I walk. I think it was a shame what they done to that girl, starvin' her and all. I kin remember when doctors and scientists knew how to put people down." "The NRA is elated," said NRA President Charleton Heston. "The Florida Senate has cleared the way for its citizens to put down the Senate at the Federal level virtually overnight for which one of us has a Senator or Congressman not stolen from or perhaps tried to have killed through bogus military service." The open-ended language on the bill sponsored by Sen. Durell Peaden Jr. didn't concern some lawmakers. "Under the wording of this bill, somebody could go onto any of the streets and if they think somebody is walking toward them in a threatening fashion, they can pull out a gun and begin blasting away which is the beauty of this bill," said Sen. 'Starvin' Steven Goulatti, R-Purse Snatch Beach, who sought unsuccessfully to amend the bill on Tuesday to include eating your victim or retaining the right to sell the corpse. "We're heading towards a Wild West mentality, yippee" Goulatti said. "I anxious to when you get two guys standing on the street, both of them ready, the guns at their side, and some cop says 'Now wait a minute. Don't draw until you get my count of three.'" Peaden, R-Crestview, scoffed at the characterization. "We ain't got cops that can count to their threes." "You have to be within the confines of the Florida as described in this bill. Just tell the judge, 'Judge I don't find Florida all that confinin'," Peaden said during Wednesday's floor debate. "You just can't shoot anybody on the street and drag 'em in. Some folks in Florida is big. You might need a winch. We need a winch law." Geller said he voted for the bill for political/economic reasons. "We'd be seen as Democrats soft on crime and that ain't the way that the people who own me wanted me to go, and they already killed with impunity since 1926" he said. A similar proposal (HB 249) was approved on an 8-2 vote Wednesday by the House Frontier Justice Council. Governor Bush was asked if he thought the citizens of the Great State Of Florida were ready to handle their guns. Jeb's response was, "They couldn't handle their dicks. That's what brought them to this state. Let's hope they can get a better grip on something a little longer and that's already hard." From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 27 23:04:25 2005 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (Alphaville) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:04:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Texas School Board Adds Bible Class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427052B9.8070307@ix.netcom.com> */ The Assassinated Press /* Texas School Board Adds Bible Class: Jesus Course To Replace Calf Ropin': Spanish Dropped For Speakin' In Tongues: Sex Ed Courses Will Remain Part of 4H: Chewin' Tobacco Declared A Vegetable: By Jeffey Lube Assassinated Press April 27, 2005 http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ ODDESSA FILE, Texas -- The school board in this West Texas cow town voted unanimously to add a Bible class complete with graduation crucifixion of the student voted most likely to succeed to its high school curriculum. Hundreds of people, all of them supporters of the proposal, packed the board meeting Tuesday night. More than 6,000 Odessa residents had signed a petition supporting the class which would eliminate calf ropin', truck rollin' and math. "What's it the fuck matter. We ain't learned shit out here anyway. And what happens in Odessa, stays in Odessa. Even the people. So nobody's gonna need ta try to reason with us or nothin'," declared Mayor E.B. Farnum in support of the Christer Class. Some residents, however, said the school board acted too quickly. "The folks was like a cowpoke on a young heifer--- Slam Bam, Thank Ya Jesus," added the local preacher, Silas Wireless. Others said they hoped for a Waco type national constitutional fight and began circling their mobile homes and kidnapping children from divorced spouses.. Barring any hurdles, the class should be added to the curriculum in fall 2006 and taught as a history or literature course. Prospective titles are 'History of the Jews To The Year 1' taught in the fall. And History of Christianity's Attempts To Exterminate the Jews: Year 1 To the Present which would be taught in the spring. Others who think the Bible should be taught as literature have suggested William Burroughs and the Bible and The Bible in Manga Form. Others suggestions have included the Bible As Film and an economics course entitled Making A Million Off That Beggar Jesus: Preaching The Word In The Age Of The Electronic Barnum. The school board still must find somebody who can read so he or she can develop a curriculum, which board member Floy Hinson need not be open for public review "cause ain't none of us can read it no how.". The board had heard a presentation in March from Mike Johnson, a representative of the Greensboro, N.C.-based National KKK on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, who said that course work designed by that organization is "all proselytizing' and preachin'. Its firebrand, cross-burning, lynchin', holy rollin', snake handlin' Jesus thumpin, gummint hatin', shit! $399.95 puts you at the edge of the world and in the hands of Armegeddon! Its like havin' the Dark Ages right in your very own livin' room or schoolhouse compatible with every 20th century implement of destruction except nukes. Let us prepare your children to kill for Christ." People for the American Way and the American Civil Liberties Union have criticized the council, saying its materials promote religion. "But you ain't gonna let those niggerlovin' New York Jews tell you what to," Johnson said leaning on his '36 Roadster a half empty bottle of Jack Daniels in his hands to draw out the sentimentality of the poets. Johnson said students in the class would learn such things as the geography of the Middle East for when they hump it over there to Iraq and the influence of the Bible on history and culture called 'The Bloodbaths Babble Made.' "How can students understand the homosexuality in Leonardo da Vinci's 'Last Supper' or class warfare in Handel's 'Messiah' if they don't understand Jesus, the reference from which they came?" Johnson said. The group's Web site says its curriculum has received backing from the NRA, the Knights of Malta and the John Birch Society. In Frankenstein, Mich., a similar proposal led to a yearlong controversy before the school board voted in January not to offer such a course because occasionally because of lack of local employment, one of its own ventured out into the real world.. David Graham wrote: >Reading An Anthology Of Chinese Poems Of The Sung Dynasty, I Pause To Admire >The Length And Clarity Of Their Titles > > >It seems these poets have nothing >up their ample sleeves >they turn over so many cards so early, >telling us before the first line >whether it is wet or dry, >night or day, the season the man is standing in, >even how much he has had to drink. > >Maybe it is autumn and he is looking at a sparrow. >Maybe it is snowing on a town with a beautiful name. > > "Viewing Peonies at the Temple of Good Fortune >on a Cloudy Afternoon" is one of Sun Tung Po's. >"Dipping Water from the River and Simmering Tea" >is another one, or just >"On a Boat, Awake at Night." > >And Lu Yu takes the simple rice cake with >"In a Boat on a Summer Evening >I Heard the Cry of a Waterbird. >It Was Very Sad and Seemed To Be Saying >My Woman Is Cruel --Moved, I Wrote This Poem." > >There is no iron turnstile to push against here >as with headings like "Vortex on a String," >"The Horn of Neurosis," or whatever. >No confusingly inscribed welcome mat to puzzle over. > >Instead, "I Walk Out on a Summer Morning >to the Sound of Birds and a Waterfall" >is a beaded curtain brushing over my shoulders. > >And "Ten Days of Spring Rain Have Kept Me Indoors" >is a servant who shows me into the room >where a poet with a thin beard >is sitting on a mat with a jug of wine > >whispering something about clouds and cold wind, >about sickness and the loss of friends. > >How easy he has made it for me to enter here, >to sit down in a corner, >cross my legs like his, and listen. > >--Billy Collins. *Sailing Alone Around the Room: New & Selected Poems*. >Random House, 2001. > > > > > > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Apr 27 13:11:29 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 01:11:29 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry student banned from class In-Reply-To: <200504271600.j3RG04Re028640@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200504271600.j3RG04Re028640@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to David Graham for passing along this story. Aside from some of my posts, there have been very few studies on the list of the cultural civil war as exemplified by the student and teacher in this article. > >> >>"I came in using a different set of reasoning as context to look at >>the craft of poetry, and she was put off by it," Bolles said. >> >> >The poem ends with the professor trying to get Juan kicked out of >school by calling one of his poems racist. I chuckle at this last one. I've been there in Juan's shoes. The folded over ironies in this account are interesting and funny as well. Bolles is a man of my own sort. Thanks again for posting this article. R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu Apr 28 04:41:51 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:41:51 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] _dreams_ Message-ID: <009d01c54bce$1f97b7b0$f97c3652@ANNY> From: Stacy Zellmann [mailto:zellm003 at umn.edu] Sent: 27 april 2005 19:05 Offers a major rereading of the antebellum literary canon. INTIMACY IN AMERICA: Dreams of Affiliation in Antebellum Literature Peter Coviello University of Minnesota Press | 240 pages | 2005 ISBN 0-8166-4380-6 | hardcover | $59.95 ISBN 0-8166-4381-4 | hardcover | $19.95 Reading seminal works by Thomas Jefferson, Edgar Allan Poe, Herman Melville, Harriet Beecher Stowe, and Walt Whitman, Peter Coviello traces these writers' ambivalences about the idea of an intimate nationality, revealing how race and sexuality were used as vehicles for an assumed coherence. Bringing race theory and "white studies" into dialogue with questions of intimacy and affect, Coviello provides a practical rapprochement between historicist and psychoanalytic methodologies. Intimacy in America gives us a new perspective on the dream of Americanness as a relation to anonymous others. "Intimacy in America is a major contribution to literary and cultural studies. It extends in fresh and productive new directions some of the most important and influential Americanist scholarship." -Michael Moon For more information, visit the book's webpage: http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/C/coviello_intimacy.html Sign up to receive news on the latest releases from University of Minnesota Press: http://www.upress.umn.edu/eform.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Traces the evolution of the modern American dream house from seventeenth-century England to the present. ARCHITECTURE AND SUBURBIA: From English Villa to American Dream House, 1690-2000 John Archer University of Minnesota Press | 448 pages | 2005 ISBN 0-8166-4303-2 | hardcover | $39.95 John Archer argues that the ideal house is rooted in notions of privacy, property, and selfhood that are the foundation of the American nation and identity. From Enlightenment philosophy to rap lyrics, from the rise of a mercantile economy to discussions over neighborhoods, sprawl, and gated communities, Architecture and Suburbia addresses the past, present, and future of the American dream house. "John Archer shows that the suburban house and landscape raise the most profound issues of 'self, identity, gender, and relation to family and society.' Archer is both a compelling theorist and an adventurous researcher." -Robert Fishman For more information, including the table of contents, visit the book's webpage: http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/A/archer_architecture.html Sign up to receive news on the latest releases from University of Minnesota Press: http://www.upress.umn.edu/eform.html ______________________________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 28 06:08:47 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:08:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost><018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin><011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><10596303.1114634805796.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01b401c54b76$ef119c20$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a0504271824d038b08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006701c54bda$6a1cc030$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, have you ever read any Whitman or Chaucer? *And* considered them in their contexts? Jeff, have you ever read anything I've written with any comprehension? --Bob Jeff Newberry On 4/27/05, Bob Grumman wrote: > In other words, was he among the first semi-modern Americans who did what > at least some poets in nearly every era and language we know about have > done. Not a very interesting question, and the answer is no, even granting that Whitman died a little too soon. > > Chaucer's Summoner's tale was rougher and lower than anything Cummings > ever did--and, as Tim Steele has said, Chaucer is the only real New > Formalist in English (no claim at all about Scots, Robin). No, it looks like the answer is yes. Whitman did not write contragenteel poetry, nor--certainly--did Chaucer. They wrote stuff you can declaim. I really have two questions. Who first wrote contragenteel poetry in English, using the unrigorous definition of contragenteel in what I quoted from my About Poetry article, and who first took contragenteel poetry what would seem to be the final step into slang/obscenity/undeclamatorability--as Cummings probably did not. He fits somewhere into the picture, though. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- "Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia." --Charles M. Shultz Blog: http://museoffireblog.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 28 06:38:09 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:38:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hospitable poems References: Message-ID: <00a601c54bde$5f3bbaa0$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> I like the Collins poem. I wonder if he has treated the value of difficult poems, too--in a poem or essay. I also wonder if he's treated the problem of the difficulty of transparency. I mean by this the difficulty many people have with poems of outward clarity but difficult depths. The poems by Frost that David has mentioned, but I'm thinking more of traditional haiku that one seems to have to have a knack for reading to get anything out of, and which those who lack it will think, "a crow on a branch--so what?" or the like. --Bob G. > Reading An Anthology Of Chinese Poems Of The Sung Dynasty, I Pause To > Admire > The Length And Clarity Of Their Titles > > > It seems these poets have nothing > up their ample sleeves > they turn over so many cards so early, > telling us before the first line > whether it is wet or dry, > night or day, the season the man is standing in, > even how much he has had to drink. > > Maybe it is autumn and he is looking at a sparrow. > Maybe it is snowing on a town with a beautiful name. > > "Viewing Peonies at the Temple of Good Fortune > on a Cloudy Afternoon" is one of Sun Tung Po's. > "Dipping Water from the River and Simmering Tea" > is another one, or just > "On a Boat, Awake at Night." > > And Lu Yu takes the simple rice cake with > "In a Boat on a Summer Evening > I Heard the Cry of a Waterbird. > It Was Very Sad and Seemed To Be Saying > My Woman Is Cruel --Moved, I Wrote This Poem." > > There is no iron turnstile to push against here > as with headings like "Vortex on a String," > "The Horn of Neurosis," or whatever. > No confusingly inscribed welcome mat to puzzle over. > > Instead, "I Walk Out on a Summer Morning > to the Sound of Birds and a Waterfall" > is a beaded curtain brushing over my shoulders. > > And "Ten Days of Spring Rain Have Kept Me Indoors" > is a servant who shows me into the room > where a poet with a thin beard > is sitting on a mat with a jug of wine > > whispering something about clouds and cold wind, > about sickness and the loss of friends. > > How easy he has made it for me to enter here, > to sit down in a corner, > cross my legs like his, and listen. > > --Billy Collins. *Sailing Alone Around the Room: New & Selected Poems*. > Random House, 2001. > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 07:23:11 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:23:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <99.5d5141e5.2fa0f1f3@cs.com> Message-ID: <035201c54be4$a9dcbe50$fb032cd9@Robin> << From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Villon In a message dated 4/27/2005 8:34:42 AM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: Also, almost all of the slang in Henley's "translation" (and he was a real tramp, got his legs sliced off when he was riding the rails when he left them dangling and a car-door closed suddenly, so he turned to poetry) is Henley (authentic -- he did it by ear rather than from dictionaries, though I think there's a mix of both in the text you cited), not Villon. Henley was crippled lumbar tuberculosis. http://www.answers.com/topic/william-henley >> At two am in the morning, sometime after the conclusion of the Inaugural Lecture from Hell by one of my former colleagues, an ex-student of mine ended up crashing on my sittingroom floor, and when for some reason I mentioned this to Adam, he commented. He said (obviously thinking but being to polite to say, 'as bloody usual'), "You're confusing W.E.Henley with with W.H.Davies -- it was Davies who lost a leg (singular) in the freight car." So apologies to all (and thanks to Sam Gwynn for the original corrrection above). This means, among other things, my comments (so a specific apology to Marcus) above are somewhat ... undermined ... to say the least. As penance, I will spend part of today working through the Henley (sic) poem with a slang dictionary. Once I've recovered from a slight hangover and worked out just what I said last night to whomever I shouldn't have said it to. A wine reception followed by two hours in the local pub followed by three hours drinking raw cider (Adam sensibly -- which shows how much he'd changed since when I taught him -- switched from cider to tapwater somewhere through our post-pub three hour conversation ... Anyway, all that does tend to militate against lucidity. There's a moral there somewhere -- probably a memo to self, "Stop being so sloppy and check your references!" Adam was the second-brightest student I ever taught, and was and is a pretty ferocious reader with a capacious memory -- useful to have around to ask questions of. Though he did spend rather a lot of time alternately obliquely criticising the state of the house (via comments like, "You really shouldn't let your son leave *quite* so much lying around") and suggest that I get the finger out, get out the house more, and finish my edition of Wyatt. Nag, nag, nag -- comes to it when even your ex-students nag you. A Deeply Contrite Something From mandolin at mac.com Thu Apr 28 07:37:28 2005 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:37:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon In-Reply-To: <006701c54bda$6a1cc030$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost> <018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin> <011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <10596303.1114634805796.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <01b401c54b76$ef119c20$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a0504271824d038b08@mail.gmail.com> <006701c54bda$6a1cc030$65b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <2e6a5eb0ef99ef56b1544b6790f6f1dc@mac.com> On Apr 28, 2005, at 6:08 AM, Bob Grumman answered JEFF Newberry's question: > Bob, have you ever read any Whitman or Chaucer?? *And* considered them > in their contexts? > ? With this insult: > Jeff, have you ever read anything I've written with any comprehension? > ? > --Bob Then your answer to Jeff is no, you haven't ever read or considered -- or at least you've never understood -- Whitman and Chaucer in their contexts. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 11:58:25 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:58:25 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <426F4DDD.31995.6B7B26@localhost><018b01c54b2d$bb0f97e0$fb032cd9@Robin><011201c54b64$3e747700$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><10596303.1114634805796.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01b401c54b76$ef119c20$8cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <731bb17a0504271824d038b08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <076401c54c0b$1d3c00b0$fb032cd9@Robin> From: Jeff Newberry > Chaucer's Summoner's tale was rougher and lower than anything Cummings > ever did--and, as Tim Steele has said, Chaucer is the only real New > Formalist in English (no claim at all about Scots, Robin). OK, I'll accept that Chaucer predates Henryson, Dunbar, et alia, who were all influenced by him (as was Alexander Scott later by Wyatt, I think). But in turn, the (English) +Owl and the Nightingale+ predates Chaucer, so if we're thinking of New Formalist as syllable-accent rhymed iambic, O&N would be the first. (On the other hand, John Barbour, who wrote +The Brus+ [which would count in these terms] died in 1395, five years before Chaucer. Then there's: When Alexander our king was dead, Who Scotland led in love and le, Away was wealth of ale and bread, Of wine and wax, of game and glee. Then pray to God, since only he Can succour Scotland in her need That placed is in perplexity. ... which while first found in a 15thC MS, was certainly written earlier. Oops, my chauvanism is showing again.) Dun Ronin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 13:15:03 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:15:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <99.5d5141e5.2fa0f1f3@cs.com> <035201c54be4$a9dcbe50$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <07bd01c54c15$d2bb1f70$fb032cd9@Robin> << As penance, I will spend part of today working through the Henley (sic) poem with a slang dictionary. >> I haven't yet done this, but this is, I think, a relevant link: http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0202d&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=19357 This gives, in parallel, text and translations of: Ballade de bonne doctrine Ballad of Good Doctrine A Bug in the Ear Villon's Straight Tip Doug's Cross Tip... by --Villon --Stacpoole de Vere/Hofstadter --Dale --Henley Hofstadter/Daly The second line (Stacpoole de Vere/Hofstadter) seems to be the most literal, and it all goes to suggest that Henley added a *heavy* overlay of English slang, whether authentic or not, to Villon's original text. Robin (Hesitantly, given my track-record on this to date) From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 28 18:06:34 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:06:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon Message-ID: Robin, if you ever complete your "translation" of Henley's slang, I'd like to see it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 18:31:34 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:31:34 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: Message-ID: <08c701c54c42$094ef850$fb032cd9@Robin> << Robin, if you ever complete your "translation" of Henley's slang, I'd like to see it. >> Ah, now there's a challenge for me! (And a caution, as even mostly recovered from last night -- I'm *much* too old to stay up drinking till three in the morning -- and spending time on the phone giving psychological support to a friend and trying to work out just *how* [Bob Grumman might understand this] I managed to totally mistranscribe the title of LLL in the Folio -- I managed to dither too much. As ever.) Get started now. Thanks for the reminder. Robin From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 28 18:42:17 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:42:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon Message-ID: In a message dated 4/28/2005 5:32:12 PM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > Ah, now there's a challenge for me! (And a caution, as even mostly > recovered from last night -- I'm *much* too old to stay up drinking till > three in the morning -- and spending time on the phone giving psychological > support to a friend and trying to work out just *how* [Bob Grumman might > understand this] I managed to totally mistranscribe the title of LLL in the > Folio -- I managed to dither too much. As ever.) > > Get started now. > > Thanks for the reminder. I might use the Henley in my poetry anthology next time around, and I could include a paraphrase crediting you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 28 19:22:31 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:22:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: Message-ID: <08f701c54c49$277352c0$fb032cd9@Robin> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com << I might use the Henley in my poetry anthology next time around, and I could include a paraphrase crediting you. >> OK, here's for starters (I'm using the OED2[3] and Beale/Patridge 8th ed.): OED cites the poem as 1887. Villon's Straight Tip to All Cros Coves A "straight tip" is honest advice on a bet (straight from the horse's [or the trainer's] mouth?), and a "cross cove" is a thief, so: "Villon's Honest Advice to All Thieves". Suppose you screeve? Or go cheap-jack? To "screeve" is to write a begging letter, and a "cheap-jack" is a huckster (at a fair), so to "go cheap-jack" [presumably] means to become or act as a huckster. Curiously, the OED gives cites for both screeve and cheap-jack from Mayhew's +London Labour and the London Poor+ (1851) so maybe that's where Henley got the terms from? (The dates would fit.) Opps! I'm jumping to premature conclusions. Again. As it's past midnight, mibee I'd best stop there for now. More anon. Robin Hm ... just discovered this via google: FARMER, J.S., AND W.E. HENLEY. SLANG AND ITS ANALOGUES, PAST AND PRESENT 7 vols. in 3. London, 1890-1904. Anybody have a copy to hand? R. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 28 19:29:50 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:29:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon Message-ID: <42.683fd217.2fa2cbee@cs.com> Here are two of mine from No Word of Farewell: Selected Poems 1970-2000 R. S. Gwynn Fran?ois Villon: Epitaph Francis by name, France?s by state-- From Paris-by-Pontoise of late. The six-foot rope that seals my fate Will teach my neck my ass?s weight. Fran?ois Villon: The Debate of Body and Heart What?s that I hear? Me. Who? Your heart. I hang inside you by a slender thread. It saps my strength and tears me all apart To see you sulking with the guilty tread Of a whipped dog who hides under the bed. Why?s this? Because your lust runs uncontrolled. What?s that to you? You toss me to the cold. Go away. Why? To tell would take too long. And how long, pray? Until we?ve both grown old. Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. What do you want? To play a noble part. How childish! At an age when mules are led Off to the gluepots! Not me! Then your cart Has tipped. You?re crazy. Only in my head. You don?t know anything. I do. What? Dead Flies in the milk: some black, some white, I?m told. That?s it? I?d much prefer you didn?t scold. I?ve made mistakes? Then I shall right each wrong. You?re doomed. I?ll hang on till I lose my hold. Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. I get the heartbreak, but you catch the dart. If you were just some dolt whose mind had fled I might say, ?Well, he?s really not too smart.? But nothing can be hammered through your head. Sometimes I think your brain is solid lead And that you?d barter tin instead of gold. Answer me quickly now. The bell has tolled. You pose a problem death will not prolong. Then you shall die. Ah, as hath been foretold. Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. What gave you all these troubles? A bad start. When Saturn packed my bag for years ahead He added them. Then learn to use some art. You are his lord; you act his slave instead. Look at this writing: Solomon once said That wise men, if their actions prove as bold, May shepherd straying planets to the fold. Don?t swallow that. We only sing their song. What do you mean? We cannot break the mold. Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 28 19:34:29 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:34:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon Message-ID: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com> In a message dated 4/28/2005 6:31:59 PM Central Daylight Time, Oops. Meant this as a backchannel to Robin. Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > Here are two of mine from No Word of Farewell: Selected Poems 1970-2000 > > > > R. S. Gwynn > > > > Fran?ois Villon: > > Epitaph > > > > Francis by name, France?s by state-- > > From Paris-by-Pontoise of late. > > The six-foot rope that seals my fate > > Will teach my neck my ass?s weight. > > > > > Fran?ois Villon: > > The Debate of Body and Heart > > > > What?s that I hear? Me. Who? Your heart. > > I hang inside you by a slender thread. > > It saps my strength and tears me all apart > > To see you sulking with the guilty tread > > Of a whipped dog who hides under the bed. > > Why?s this? Because your lust runs uncontrolled. > > What?s that to you? You toss me to the cold. > > Go away. Why? To tell would take too long. > > And how long, pray? Until we?ve both grown old. > > Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. > > > > What do you want? To play a noble part. > > How childish! At an age when mules are led > > Off to the gluepots! Not me! Then your cart > > Has tipped. You?re crazy. Only in my head. > > You don?t know anything. I do. What? Dead > > Flies in the milk: some black, some white, I?m told. > > That?s it? I?d much prefer you didn?t scold. > > I?ve made mistakes? Then I shall right each wrong. > > You?re doomed. I?ll hang on till I lose my hold. > > Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. > > > > I get the heartbreak, but you catch the dart. > > If you were just some dolt whose mind had fled > > I might say, ?Well, he?s really not too smart.? > > But nothing can be hammered through your head. > > Sometimes I think your brain is solid lead > > And that you?d barter tin instead of gold. > > Answer me quickly now. The bell has tolled. > > You pose a problem death will not prolong. > > Then you shall die. Ah, as hath been foretold. > > Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. > > > > What gave you all these troubles? A bad start. > > When Saturn packed my bag for years ahead > > He added them. Then learn to use some art. > > You are his lord; you act his slave instead. > > Look at this writing: Solomon once said > > That wise men, if their actions prove as bold, > > May shepherd straying planets to the fold. > > Don?t swallow that. We only sing their song. > > What do you mean? We cannot break the mold. > > Then I?ve no more to say. I?ll get along. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 29 04:32:01 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:32:01 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Der neue Papst Message-ID: <005a01c54c95$eae59640$d9de3052@ANNY> As I receive it from German Intelligentsia: Ein Statement von Alice Schwarzer Der neue Papst ist ganz der Alte Eben erreicht uns die Nachricht: Kardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 78 wird Papst: Benedikt der 16. Das verhei?t nichts Gutes - zumindest nicht f?r die Frauen und die Basis. Ratzinger war als Chef der Glaubenskongregation zwanzig Jahre lang zust?ndig f?r die Wahrung der reinen Lehre und als solcher sozusagen der "Kopf" von Papst Johannes Paul II. und die graue Eminenz des Vatikans. Er wird, ?ber den Tod seines Vorg?ngers hinaus, als sein verl?ngerter Arm agieren. Alles geht also weiter wie es war. Sowohl die Sexualpolitik in Sachen Verh?tung und Abtreibung (darum freut sich auch Pr?sident Bush so ?ber die Wahl) als auch der Ausschluss der Frauen von der Kirchenmacht. Ratzinger, Sohn eines Polizisten und einer Hausfrau, dem seine ?ltere Schwester lebenslang bis zu ihrem Tod den Haushalt f?hrte, ist ein entschiedener Gegner einer gleichberechtigten Partizipation von Frauen in der Kirche. Auch der neue Papst ist kein Rassist aber ein Sexist: Schwarze Priester, Bisch?fe und Kardin?le: Ja. Weibliche: Nein! _____________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 29 13:45:38 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:45:38 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Augusto Roa Bastos - el estrellero loco Message-ID: <004101c54ce3$418c5450$a0aa3252@ANNY> >From the New York Times: Augusto Roa Bastos, Writer, Dies at 97 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/28/books/28roabastos.html and from the following site, a wonderful prose-poem that I am pasting here: http://www.geocities.com/macondomorel/roabastos.html Fragmento de Vigilia del Almirante (Parte II) La Estrella Polar se oculta tras la bruma. No aparece en el limbo del astrolabio. Escondida en la trituraci?n nebulosa que empareja el alba con la noche, no me deja tomar la altura. No la con templar? m?s. En este punto del hemisferio, la Polar no deja ver ya su luz astral. Otras constelaciones la han reemplazado. S?lo muestra una mancha vagamente luminosa entre la alidada y las tablillas de cobre de las p?nulas. La nebulosa de Andr?meda me hace un gui?o furtivo. Ah si tuviera con ella una hija le pondr?a su nombre sobre la pila bautismal. La irritable y hermosa Casiopea de ojos verdosos y rubia cabellera me vuelve la espalda de dibujo perfecto, la comba de sus m?rbidas nalgas, su perfil de medalla. En otro tiempo coqueteaba conmigo. All? ella. Solo siento nostalgia de la Estrella Polar. La "tramontana" no es el punto refulgente sobre el ?rtico en torno al cual gira el eje del cielo, como se cree. La Polar tiene su propio eje y vive en su propio cielo. Y cuando sale de su casa cierra todas sus puertas. En parte alguna del mundo la noche y el d?a son exactamente iguales. Para mi, en todo tiempo y lugar, la noche es mas inmensa que el d?a. La parte en sombras del cosmos es la medianoche primordial. Se agranda sin pausa a medida que el universo se expande. El pensamiento no puede recorrerlo en toda su extensi?n porque el universo no tiene extensi?n. Es infinit?simo. Solo Dios puede rodearlo con sus brazos puesto que fue El quien lo cre?. En mis tiempos de grumete, espiaba la aparici?n de la Estrella Polar sobre el horizonte. La contemplaba a trav?s de un agujero hecho en mi gorro de hule por el defecto de un ojo que se me da?? y cambi? de color a ra?z de un lance de corsarios en T?nez. En el ?ltimo cuarto de la noche, cuando la aurora comienza a ahuyentar los astros y la luz diurna barre las luminarias nocturnas, ella sube m?s alto a?n, hasta 15 ? sobre el horizonte. ?ngrima y sola, reina soberana del alba, antes de dar su lugar a Venus, la de los brazos quebrados y sexo resplandeciente, ornado de vello gal?ctico. Con el gorro sobre la cara la contemplaba por el agujero y notaba que hab?a cambiado de lugar, que estaba a?n m?s hermosa. Siempre por encima del horizonte. Su brillo matutino tiene el color azulado del hielo. Me sent?a lleno de adoraci?n por ellas. Me llamaban el "estrellero loco". Y la verdad es que sigo siendo un lun?tico de las estrellas y llegar? sin duda a ser un cuerdo estrellado. No alcanzar? sin embargo a ser sepultado bajo la Cruz del Sur con el epitafio elegido por m?: "Est? aqui? el peregrino. / Equivoc? el camino..." Hay miles y miles de millones de estrellas en el cielo de la noche. Algo quieren decir, algo dicen, en un lenguaje desconocido e indescifrable. Es el libro m?s inmenso que se ha escrito desde la creaci?n. Es el libro verdaderamente sagrado pues lo escribi? el mismo Dios. Las palabras de las estrellas est?n claramente impresas en el firmamento. Acaso mi nombre est? escrito en una constelaci?n invisible todav?a. Alguna vez levantar? la vista y leer? la palabra. _____________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 13:57:24 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:57:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <99.5d5141e5.2fa0f1f3@cs.com><035201c54be4$a9dcbe50$fb032cd9@Robin> <07bd01c54c15$d2bb1f70$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <0b1601c54ce4$e5f9b950$fb032cd9@Robin> Yet *another* Villon/Henley poem. The glosses are, I think, by Stevenson. Or Henley himself. Or possibly the two between them. (URL to the source, details, etc, at the end of this post -- the text it's from has lots of other Henley slang poems though not, I think, another originating in Villon. R) VILLON'S GOOD-NIGHT[1887] [By WILLIAM ERNEST HENLEY]. I You bible-sharps that thump on tubs, [1] You lurkers on the Abram-sham, [2] You sponges miking round the pubs, [3] You flymy titters fond of flam, [4] You judes that clobberfor the stramm, [5] You ponces good at talking tall, With fawneys on your dexter famm-- [6] A mot's good-night to one and all! [7] II Likewise you molls that flash your bubs [8] For swells to spot and stand you sam, [9] You bleeding bonnets, pugs, and subs, You swatchel-coves that pitch and slam. [10] You magsmen bold that work the cram, [11] You flats and joskins greatand small, Gay grass-widows and lawful-jam-- [12] A mot's good-night to one and all! III For you, you coppers, narks, and dubs, [13] Who pinched me when upon the snam, [14] And gave me mumps and mulligrubs [15] With skilly and swill that made me clam, [16] At you I merely lift my gam-- [17] I drink your health against the wall! [18] That is the sort of man I am, A mot's good-night to one and all! _The Farewell_. Paste 'em, and larrup 'em, and lamm! Give Kennedy, and make 'em crawl! [19] I do not care one bloody damn, A mot's good-night to one and all. [1: false clericos] [2: beggar feigning sickness] [3: cadgers; loafing] [4: saucy girls; non-sense] [5: women dress; game] [6: rings; right hand] [7: harlot] [8: prostitutes; expose paps] [9: see; pay for] [10: Punch-and-judy-man] [11: pattering tradesman] [12: wife] [13: police; informers; warders] [14: arrested; stealing] [15: "the blues"] [16:refuse food] [17: leg] [18: urinate] [19: thrash them and make them stir] **************** http://library.beau.org/gutenberg/etext05/8mped10.txt Musa Pedestris THREE CENTURIES OF CANTING SONGS AND SLANG RHYMES [1536-1896] COLLECTED AND ANNOTATED BY JOHN S. FARMER (As I'm sure absolutely bloody everyone on this list knows, Farmer was co-Editor with Henley of a 7 volume Dictionary of Slang [published c. 1890] Goes to show. Though just what, I'm not sure.) From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 29 16:36:42 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:36:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Der neue Papst References: <005a01c54c95$eae59640$d9de3052@ANNY> Message-ID: <019d01c54cfb$2797a8c0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Here's another burstnorm poem I think is terrific and don't think I've posted here before: wOm OOn wat her I call this an example of a poem influenced by Cummings, directly or indirectly, because of its focus on the moon and woman-as-moon, and its use of infraverbal miscapitalization, particularly of o's in the word, "moon"; of syllabreaks; of its using of a removed letter ("c")--or added letter ("h"); and its concern with infraverbal significance in general. Result: one of the most beautifully dense equaphorical complexes in the language--or, to translate the Grummanese, a lot of great metaphors and imagery in just 12 letters. Question for any who would say it's not a poem: what is it? Could any sane person say it's more like prose than poetry? It's by Mike Basinski, by the way. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Apr 29 16:39:36 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:39:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kinnell's Villon Message-ID: I wonder what people think of Kinnell's versions of Villon. I know nothing of the language, so have no way of judging these as translations. Obviously he has not tried to rhyme, for one thing. But I'm fond of some of them. Ballade I know flies in milk I know the man by his clothes I know fair weather from foul I know the apple by the tree I know the tree when I see the sap I know when all is one I know who labors and who loafs I know everything but myself. I know the coat by the collar I know the monk by the cowl I know the master by the servant I know the nun by the veil I know when a hustler rattles on I know fools raised on whipped cream I know the wine by the barrel I know everything but myself. I know the horse and the mule I know their loads and their limits I know Beatrice and Belle I know the beads that count and add I know nightmare and sleep I know the Bohemians' error I know the power of Rome I know everything but myself. Prince I know all things I know the rosy-cheeked and the pale I know Death who devours all I know everything but myself. --Francois Villon. Trans. Galway Kinnell ___________________ Ballade The goat scratches so much it can't sleep The pot fetches water so much it breaks You heat iron so much it reddens You hammer it so much it cracks A man's worth so much as he's esteemed He's away so much he's forgotten He's bad so much he's hated We cry good news so much it comes. You talk so much you refute yourself Fame's worth so much as its perquisites You promise so much you renege You beg so much you get your wish A thing costs so much you want it You want it so much you get it It's around so much you want it no more We cry good news so much it comes. You love a dog so much you feed it A song's loved so much as people hum it A fruit is kept so much it rots You strive for a place so much it's taken You dawdle so much you miss your chance You hurry so much you run into bad luck You grasp so hard you lose your grip We cry good news so much it comes. You jeer so much nobody laughs You spend so much you've lost your shirt You're honest so much you're broke "Take it" is worth so much as a promise You love God so much you go to church You give so much you have to borrow The wind shifts so much it blows cold We cry good news so much it comes. Prince a fool lives so much he grows wise He travels so much he returns home He's beaten so much he reverts to form We cry good news so much it comes. --Francois Villon. Trans. Galway Kinnell ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 29 16:59:30 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:59:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Der neue Papst In-Reply-To: <019d01c54cfb$2797a8c0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <427267F2.14767.18C1296@localhost> On 29 Apr 2005 at 16:36, Bob Grumman wrote: > Here's another burstnorm poem I think is terrific and don't think I've > posted here before: > wOm > OOn > wat > her > I call this an example of a poem influenced by Cummings, directly or > indirectly, because of its focus on the moon and woman-as-moon, and > its use of infraverbal miscapitalization, particularly of o's in the > word, "moon"; of syllabreaks; of its using of a removed letter > ("c")--or added letter ("h"); and its concern with infraverbal > significance in general. Result: one of the most beautifully dense > equaphorical complexes in the language--or, to translate the > Grummanese, a lot of great metaphors and imagery in just 12 letters. > Question for any who would say it's not a poem: what is it? Could any > sane person say it's more like prose than poetry? It's by Mike > Basinski, by the way. No no -- let me take this one. This reads like it's written by a bright seventh grader who's just discovered that words have connotations and not only denotations. As evidence of a kid's arrival at the next level of language comprehension it would be worth a lot, but the only thing dense about it would be the critic who thought it was worth anything as art. What is it "if" it's not a poem? It's a doodle. Marcus From kpaul at mallasch.com Fri Apr 29 17:06:12 2005 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:06:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Der neue Papst In-Reply-To: <427267F2.14767.18C1296@localhost> References: <427267F2.14767.18C1296@localhost> Message-ID: <20050429160547.P95364@kpaul.spinweb.net> it can be read several ways. it is a poem, imho... a good one at that. or, at least interesting... -kpaul mallasch.com On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, Marcus Bales wrote: > On 29 Apr 2005 at 16:36, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Here's another burstnorm poem I think is terrific and don't think I've >> posted here before: > >> wOm >> OOn >> wat >> her > >> I call this an example of a poem influenced by Cummings, directly or >> indirectly, because of its focus on the moon and woman-as-moon, and >> its use of infraverbal miscapitalization, particularly of o's in the >> word, "moon"; of syllabreaks; of its using of a removed letter >> ("c")--or added letter ("h"); and its concern with infraverbal >> significance in general. Result: one of the most beautifully dense >> equaphorical complexes in the language--or, to translate the >> Grummanese, a lot of great metaphors and imagery in just 12 letters. >> Question for any who would say it's not a poem: what is it? Could any >> sane person say it's more like prose than poetry? It's by Mike >> Basinski, by the way. > > No no -- let me take this one. > > This reads like it's written by a bright seventh grader who's just > discovered that words have connotations and not only denotations. As > evidence of a kid's arrival at the next level of language > comprehension it would be worth a lot, but the only thing dense about > it would be the critic who thought it was worth anything as art. > > What is it "if" it's not a poem? It's a doodle. > > Marcus > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 29 17:17:51 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:17:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kinnell's Villon Message-ID: <20c.566cf.2fa3fe7f@cs.com> In a message dated 4/29/2005 3:39:10 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > I wonder what people think of Kinnell's versions of Villon. > > I know nothing of the language, so have no way of judging these as > translations. Obviously he has not tried to rhyme, for one thing. But I'm > fond of some of them. > If Villon had been written by Phil Levine, fine. They don't exactly sing, which is the whole point for me of Villon. Reading Kinnell's translations almost 40 years ago is what got me started translating in the first place. Who cares about literal fidelity when you're dealing with a poet who'se work is over 50% private jokes? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 17:23:18 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:23:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kinnell's Villon References: Message-ID: <0bb101c54d01$a9d98c80$fb032cd9@Robin> From: "David Graham" > I wonder what people think of Kinnell's versions of Villon. > > I know nothing of the language, so have no way of judging these as > translations. Obviously he has not tried to rhyme, for one thing. But I'm > fond of some of them. I think there may just possibly be a slightly extreme measure of disagreement over this between different members of this list. So to speak. Interesting to see. Now me, I *do* rather admire his work with Villon. Robin From poetry at wildhoneypress.com Fri Apr 29 17:23:21 2005 From: poetry at wildhoneypress.com (wild honey press) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:23:21 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com> Message-ID: <005601c54d01$af6a1c00$f06bdac3@computer> Well I for one am glad you didn't. It was a pleasure to read them. best Randolph Randolph Healy www.wildhoneypress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Villon In a message dated 4/28/2005 6:31:59 PM Central Daylight Time, Oops. Meant this as a backchannel to Robin. Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: Here are two of mine from No Word of Farewell: Selected Poems 1970-2000 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 17:56:45 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:56:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com> <005601c54d01$af6a1c00$f06bdac3@computer> Message-ID: <0c3601c54d06$55dd0da0$fb032cd9@Robin> ----- Original Message ----- From: wild honey press To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Villon Well I for one am glad you didn't. It was a pleasure to read them. best Randolph Randolph Healy www.wildhoneypress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Villon In a message dated 4/28/2005 6:31:59 PM Central Daylight Time, Oops. Meant this as a backchannel to Robin. Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: Here are two of mine from No Word of Farewell: Selected Poems 1970-2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 29 18:08:23 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:08:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Basinski Poem References: <427267F2.14767.18C1296@localhost> <20050429160547.P95364@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <01c101c54d07$f63140e0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> > it can be read several ways. it is a poem, imho... a good one at that. or, > at least interesting... > > -kpaul Thanks, kpaul. One, of course, can say of any poem that a child could make it, just as a child could make a Jackson Pollock painting. To make a good case against a poem, one would have to tell exactly what it does, and then show how some similar poem does much more. But I'm replying mainly to change the damned header, which I forgot to change when I started this thread. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 18:09:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:09:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Villon References: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com><005601c54d01$af6a1c00$f06bdac3@computer> <0c3601c54d06$55dd0da0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <0c5301c54d08$29ed6cb0$fb032cd9@Robin> Sorry about the last contentless post -- hit the wrong button. {I was aiming to open Word to clean-up something for the list, when I hit "Send" by accident.} I was mumbling under my breath, "Concur with Randolph!" (though I suppose it doesn't really count as I'd have got to see them anyway). Didn't mean to send it, just thinking to my self. 'pologies, all. (But then, the simplest thing to do would be to buy a copy of R.S.Gwynn's +No Word of Farewell+ from your local Borders -- that way, you not only get the Villon translations, but lots else beside, and cheap at the price. Back the the teapot. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 18:21:05 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:21:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons -- Logue References: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com><005601c54d01$af6a1c00$f06bdac3@computer><0c3601c54d06$55dd0da0$fb032cd9@Robin> <0c5301c54d08$29ed6cb0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <0c9901c54d09$bc936d70$fb032cd9@Robin> By Christopher Logue: GONE LADIES Where in the world is Helen gone, Whose loveliness demolished Troy? Where is Salome? Where the wan Licentious Queen of Avalon? Who sees My Lady Fontenoy? And where is Joan, so soldier tall? And She who bore God's only Boy? Where is the snow we watched last Fall ? Is Thais still? Is Nell ? And can Stem Heloise aurene, Whose so-by-love-enchanted man Sooner would risk castration than Abandon her, be seen ? Who does Sheherazade enthral? And who, within her arms and small, Lies hard by Josephine? Through what eventless territory Are Ladies Day and Joplin swept? What news of Marilyn who crept Into an endless reverie? You saw Lucrece ? And Jane? And she, Salvation's ancient blame-it-all, Delicious Eve ? Then answer me: Where is the snow we watched last Fall? Girl, never seek to know from me Who was the fairest of them all. What wouldst thou say if I asked thee: Where is the snow we watched last Fall? From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 29 19:51:55 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:51:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons -- Logue Message-ID: <42.685296d9.2fa4229b@cs.com> Loverly. Logue is great. Loved his Iliad reda/uction and taught it once. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 20:26:31 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:26:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons -- Logue References: <42.685296d9.2fa4229b@cs.com> Message-ID: <0d4301c54d1b$42624780$fb032cd9@Robin> Loverly. Logue is great. Loved his Iliad reda/uction and taught it once. Most of it (Pax and Patrocleia +) was collected together in +War Music+. Since then +All Day Permanent Red+ (2003) and the most recent, just out, +Cold Calls+ (2005). Maybe he'll even finish it some day, despite the demise a bit ago of Peter Levi who did the Greek. Shame Logue's such absolute shite as an original poet. Despite being a brilliant translator. Wouldn't have thought he was your scene, though. Just goes to show you shouldn't stereotype the taste of even a New Formalist. Mind you, the operatic version of his +War Music+ is seriously to be avoided. I missed avoiding it once (at the Edinburgh Festival when it was, I think, premiered) and my eardrums are still bleeding. I think I might have been in close to the beginning of this -- as audience, that is. In about 1964, a strange satirical Brit TV program called /That Was The Week That Was (It's Over, Let It Go)/ (before +Pax+ was even published) staged the bit from +Pax+ where Apollo flicks Patroclus from the walls of Troy. When I watched it, I knew little about poetry and zilch about Logue's Illiad, but it blew my skull apart. After that, I'd have forgiven Logue anything. Except his own poetry. Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 21:06:37 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 02:06:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 References: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com><005601c54d01$af6a1c00$f06bdac3@computer><0c3601c54d06$55dd0da0$fb032cd9@Robin><0c5301c54d08$29ed6cb0$fb032cd9@Robin> <0c9901c54d09$bc936d70$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <0d6001c54d20$dc339f30$fb032cd9@Robin> I've been fascinated by "Gone Ladies" ever since I first encountered it, and there still bits I can't fathom -- "Stem Heloise aurene", for example (and no, "Stem" *isn't* a misprint for "Stern") but one thing I thought I was sure of was where Logue got: And who, within her arms and small, Lies hard by Josephine? "It is obvious," I said, in front of a large freshman poetry class, with absolute assurance, "that Logue is echoing Thomas Wyatt's line, 'And she me caught in her arms long and small' ", when this kid who'd never opened her mouth in an entire six months of seminars tentatively put up her hand up. "Yes?" I said condescendingly. "Isn't it simply the case that Napoleon wasn't very tall?" "Ulp!" I said (that being my usual response when I realise I've been totally blown out of the water), thought for about twenty seconds, and reluctantly responded, "Do you know, that had never bloody occurred to me, but of course I have to admit you're absolutely dead right." The student beamed all over her face, promptly developed a quite considerable degree of self-confidence and eventually got a first class degree. (She had been shy till then but she was always bright.) So sometimes being wrong can be right. Do I really mean that? Or is it simple self-justification? Being so totally and utterly wrong on my part, and the student's pointing out the simple Napoleon thing -- obvious in retrospect, but which never *had* occurred to me till then -- did wonders for the kid's ego. So, well, there it goes. Robin > Who does Sheherazade enthral? > And who, within her arms and small, > Lies hard by Josephine? From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 29 21:20:26 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:20:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 Message-ID: <9f.5e2931e1.2fa4375a@cs.com> In a message dated 4/29/2005 8:07:20 PM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE > I've been fascinated by "Gone Ladies" ever since I first encountered it, and > there still bits I can't fathom -- "Stem Heloise aurene", for example (and > no, "Stem" *isn't* a misprint for "Stern") but one thing I thought I was > sure of was where Logue got: > To stem is to stop. Stop the aureate (I assume) Heloise before she does any damage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 29 21:21:16 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:21:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 Message-ID: <1df.3af3a627.2fa4378c@cs.com> In a message dated 4/29/2005 8:07:20 PM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: We all miss 'em from time to time. > And who, within her arms and small, > Lies hard by Josephine? > > "It is obvious," I said, in front of a large freshman poetry class, with > absolute assurance, "that Logue is echoing Thomas Wyatt's line, 'And she me > caught in her arms long and small' ", when this kid who'd never opened her > mouth in an entire six months of seminars tentatively put up her hand up. > > "Yes?" I said condescendingly. > > "Isn't it simply the case that Napoleon wasn't very tall?" > > "Ulp!" I said (that being my usual response when I realise I've been totally > blown out of the water), thought for about twenty seconds, and reluctantly > responded, "Do you know, that had never bloody occurred to me, but of course > I have to admit you're absolutely dead right." > > The student beamed all over her face, promptly developed a quite > considerable degree of self-confidence and eventually got a first class > degree. (She had been shy till then but she was always bright.) > > So sometimes being wrong can be right. > > Do I really mean that? Or is it simple self-justification? > > Being so totally and utterly wrong on my part, and the student's pointing > out the simple Napoleon thing -- obvious in retrospect, but which never > *had* occurred to me till then -- did wonders for the kid's ego. > > So, well, there it goes. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 22:00:40 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:00:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 References: <1df.3af3a627.2fa4378c@cs.com> Message-ID: <0dd801c54d28$691658f0$fb032cd9@Robin> We all miss 'em from time to time. I seem to miss them more than most. Mind you, this was a lecture/seminar course and I'd spent six months trying to get this kid to open her mouth and venture *any* comment in a seminar, using every technique I knew, with no luck. She was ex-Girl's-Grammar-School and had had it drilled into her head from the age of nine that Nice Girls Don't Contradict Their Teachers (or even speak in public). What was driving me slightly out of my skull was that she was obviously bright and her written work was ace but she *wouldn't talk*. Then she interrupts me in the middle of a *lecture*, for god's sake (which takes some guts even for a student who's right, which she was). Once she broke her conditioning, she took off like a sky-rocket -- she really was more than quite intelligent, so at least I called that right. I never did teach her after that, but I admired the *way* she broke out of the egg. More so really, because she finally did it herself. Also, after I got over my chagrin at being shot to bits in front of virtually the entire first year, I was grateful for the Napoleon insight. Robin And who, within her arms and small, Lies hard by Josephine? "It is obvious," I said, in front of a large freshman poetry class, with absolute assurance, "that Logue is echoing Thomas Wyatt's line, 'And she me caught in her arms long and small' ", when this kid who'd never opened her mouth in an entire six months of seminars tentatively put up her hand up. "Yes?" I said condescendingly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 22:31:55 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:31:55 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 References: <9f.5e2931e1.2fa4375a@cs.com> Message-ID: <0df901c54d2c$c6dc3ff0$fb032cd9@Robin> PREAMBLE: there's a horribly simple way to answer this -- anyone know Christopher Logue? Simply write him and ask him what he meant. Or is that cheating? R. To stem is to stop. Stop the aureate (I assume) Heloise before she does any damage. Is Thais still? Is Nell ? And can Stem Heloise aurene, Whose so-by-love-enchanted man Sooner would risk castration than Abandon her, be seen ? Problem one -- is "stem" a noun (unlikely), an adjective (where I'm at) or a verb (your reading)? I'm not really happy with your reading -- just *who* will stem the aureate Heliose? (And why -- it really wasn't her fault anyway, and frankly Abelard was a right schmuck.) {I think why I still plump for an adjective of whatever meaning is that the syntax of "Stem Heloise aurene" pushes "stem" towards an adjectival reference more than anything else.} I'd agree that what we have is "Heloise aurene" means "the aureate Heloise", but I'm still bothered by trying work around "stem". I really shouldn't, but I'll Append my Heloise and Abelard text (from +The Sparrow and the Spider+) -- late night indulgence. Robin A LITTLE PLAYLET FOR THE SPARROW ABELARD: Ah, Heloise, my incomparable one, allow my lips to approach your divine, delicious, scrumptious cherries, my teeth to part, and ... Oh my god, it's your uncle! OUCH!!! HELOISE : Well, that's one problem out of the way at least, but life's going to be a little less interesting now. [To Abelard, in a tone of concern] Did that hurt, darling? ABELARD: [moans] HELOISE : Look on the bright side, dearest -- now you'll be ever so much better able to concentrate on that silly ... I mean serious ... book you were always going on and on about. What was it you were going to call it? Oh, yes, Sic et Non. [Aside to herself] Bloody stupid title if you ask me. Trust Abelard to come up with a no-brainer like that. No way it's going to sell. Prat! And remember what that funny fat man Samuel Johnson said -- oh, I suppose will say, given that we're still in the Middle Ages -- "Castration clarifies the mind wonderfully." [In a tone of concern] Did I get the quotation correct, darling? I mean, you're always going on and on and ON at me to Be Precise. ABELARD: [groans] HELOISE: Well, if +that's+ how your going to take it, bags me a nunnery. I'll write you when I get there. Do keep in touch. When you're feeling a little better, you might think about writing your autobiography. You could start a Whole New Genre. Wouldn't that be nice? As if! [laughs condescendingly] Exit Heloise, Stage left, getting to a nunnery Manet Abelard, moaning and groaning more quietly now ... and there in the gods, a short, undistinguished-looking Elizabethan playwright -- what was (or will be) his name? Oxford? Bacon? That's it, Shakespeare! ... reaches into his codpiece for a parchment and quill and hastily scribbles ... Not bad that. I can use it. And by the time I write the bloody play -- and for the miserable pittance they're going to pay me, why I bother ... Bastards! Good job I thought to use that money I just happened to find in the street to buy some shares in the Corn Monopoly. Nunnery ... Getting ... Right, that's it, "Get thee to a nunnery." Fit perfectly into the Balcony Scene of _The Comedy of Romulus and Josephine_ ... Right .... Got it ... This one will have the punters howling with laughter. Bums on seats, that's what it comes down to. ROMULUS [to Josephine]: Get thee to a nunnery! JOSEPHINE [to Romulus]: Oh do stop farting around, Romulus. Get out of that silly window and into my bed. Apart from anything else, it's bloody cold in Verona at this time of year with the Balcony Window wide open. ROMULUS [toppling slowly off the Balcony and into the rose-garden {thorns courtesy of Guillaume de Lorris and Jean de Meun} beneath] Not tonight, Josephine. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 29 22:57:11 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:57:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 Message-ID: <53.26abf70c.2fa44e07@cs.com> In a message dated 4/29/2005 9:32:35 PM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > PREAMBLE: there's a horribly simple way to answer this -- anyone know > Christopher Logue? Simply write him and ask him what he meant. > > Or is that cheating? > Well, this adds to the stew, but my Webster's International glosses "aurene" as a type of early American crystal--i.e., stemware. Mr. Logue has been known to be perverse at times. Nothing in the OED. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 23:16:16 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 04:16:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 References: <9f.5e2931e1.2fa4375a@cs.com> <0df901c54d2c$c6dc3ff0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <0e9501c54d32$f8f7cc60$fb032cd9@Robin> Is Thais still? Is Nell ? And can Stem Heloise aurene, Whose so-by-love-enchanted man Sooner would risk castration than Abandon her, be seen ? Cascade: 1 Is Thais still? 2 Is Nell? 3 Can Heloise be seen? EXPANSION OF 3 Can "Stem Heloise aurene" (Whose so-by-love-enchanted man / Sooner would risk castration than / Abandon her) be seen? M'luds, I rest my case. R. [It would be bloody *simple* if it read "Stern Heloise", but Logue reprints "Stem Heloise" from +Abecedary+ (1977) in the same form in +Ode to the Dodo+ (1981). Dunno how (or if) it appears in the +Selected Poems+ (1996). Anyone got (or got access to) a text of that? R.] From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 23:25:22 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 04:25:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 References: <53.26abf70c.2fa44e07@cs.com> Message-ID: <0ea501c54d34$3e6b3a60$fb032cd9@Robin> << Well, this adds to the stew, but my Webster's International glosses "aurene" as a type of early American crystal--i.e., stemware. Mr. Logue has been known to be perverse at times. Nothing in the OED. >> ALL I bloody need -- I'd simply taken "aurene" as a variant of "aureate". More fool me. Can we at least agree on "the jewel/crystal-like Heloise"? Would work in either case. R. (Well, OK, "aureate" is strictly gold or gold-like, but that's not the problem -- the problem is "Stem".) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Apr 29 23:41:32 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 04:41:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 References: <53.26abf70c.2fa44e07@cs.com> Message-ID: <0ebe01c54d36$80a61d30$fb032cd9@Robin> << Well, this adds to the stew, but my Webster's International glosses "aurene" as a type of early American crystal--i.e., stemware. Mr. Logue has been known to be perverse at times. Nothing in the OED. >> Ouch, sorry, ignore my previous -- I totally missed "stemware" in RSG's post. (Well, in my excuse, it's half after four in the morning here, and I ought to have got to bed hours ago. If it *is* any valid excuse.) BINGO!!! Give the man a fat cigar. {Wish I'd managed to get to there myself -- neat and conclusive on your part, I think.} So right, Heloise is Stem Heloise because she is the tall crystal-stemmed Heloise -- makes perfect sense. At last. Nah? Robin (And yes, it's not in the OED -- at least not in the OED2[3] -- I double-checked. But then I don't trust my grandmother to teach me how to suck eggs. R.) From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 29 23:59:06 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:59:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 In-Reply-To: <0ea501c54d34$3e6b3a60$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <4272CA4A.20898.480767@localhost> On 30 Apr 2005 at 4:25, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Can we at least agree on "the jewel/crystal-like Heloise"? Would work > in either case. > (Well, OK, "aureate" is strictly gold or gold-like, but that's not the > problem -- the problem is "Stem".) In the glass biz, it takes gold to make red glass; one adulterates the glass with gold and heats it once and gets red. Heat it again and often one gets brown. M From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Apr 29 13:08:11 2005 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:08:11 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kinnell's Villon (David Graham) In-Reply-To: <200504300256.j3U2ukRe015791@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200504300256.j3U2ukRe015791@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The French have a deeper tradition of the adage than we have. In French, there are mathematical-like symmetries that lend themselves to the epithet and apothegm. My friend, Gordon Liddy, is fascinated with French even while he abhors their politics. The French have a logic all their own, they're proud of it, it's their national secret. R i c h a r d D i l l o n -- From dwaber at logolalia.com Sat Apr 30 02:50:23 2005 From: dwaber at logolalia.com (Dan Waber) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 02:50:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 In-Reply-To: <4272CA4A.20898.480767@localhost> (Marcus Bales's message of "Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:59:06 -0400") References: <4272CA4A.20898.480767@localhost> Message-ID: <86br7wsqq8.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv> > On 30 Apr 2005 at 4:25, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Can we at least agree on "the jewel/crystal-like Heloise"? Would work >> in either case. >> (Well, OK, "aureate" is strictly gold or gold-like, but that's not the >> problem -- the problem is "Stem".) > > In the glass biz, it takes gold to make red glass; one adulterates > the glass with gold and heats it once and gets red. Heat it again and > often one gets brown. It takes gold to make pink glass. The reds are made with copper or selenium. If we're talking about the original melt of silica sand, soda ash, etc., that is. Dan From dwaber at logolalia.com Sat Apr 30 03:12:50 2005 From: dwaber at logolalia.com (Dan Waber) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:12:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 In-Reply-To: <86br7wsqq8.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv> (Dan Waber's message of "Sat, 30 Apr 2005 02:50:23 -0400") References: <4272CA4A.20898.480767@localhost> <86br7wsqq8.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv> Message-ID: <863bt8spot.fsf@argos.fun-fun.prv> >> On 30 Apr 2005 at 4:25, Robin Hamilton wrote: >>> Can we at least agree on "the jewel/crystal-like Heloise"? Would work >>> in either case. >>> (Well, OK, "aureate" is strictly gold or gold-like, but that's not the >>> problem -- the problem is "Stem".) >> >> In the glass biz, it takes gold to make red glass; one adulterates >> the glass with gold and heats it once and gets red. Heat it again and >> often one gets brown. > > It takes gold to make pink glass. The reds are made with copper or > selenium. If we're talking about the original melt of silica sand, > soda ash, etc., that is. I should add to that the qualifier "in practice." In the past, and in theory, a ruby color can and was made with gold, but that hasn't really been done since glass stopped being made with lead. And I'm speaking about sheet stained glass here, not necessarily blown glass where my experience is more limited (though I suspect it's as true there, as well, at least in the US). The "striking" of hot colors in general (red, pink, orange, yellow) is notoriously true. The original manufacturing strikes it the desired color. Heat it again and it may change color, or lose all color completely, or even become opalescent if it was once transparent or vice versa. Heat it yet again and it may come back to its original color. Dan From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 05:39:14 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:39:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons -- the Scottish Connection References: <42.685296d9.2fa4229b@cs.com> <0d4301c54d1b$42624780$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <007401c54d68$799802b0$fd9c9951@Robin> Never let it be said that I am afraid to reveal my linguistic chauvinism ... R. Ballat o the Leddies o aulden times, trans Tom Scott Tell me whaur, in whit countrie Bides Flora noo, yon Roman belle? Whaur Archipiades, Thais be; Thir douce cuisins, can ye tell Whaur gossipin Echo draws pell-mell Abuin some burn owre-hung wi bine Her beautie's mair than human spell: Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? Whaur's Heloise, yon wyce abbess Fur whome Pete Abelard manless fell, Yet luvin still, at Saunt Denniss Wroucht oot his days in cloistered cell? And say whaur yon queen is as well That ordert Buridan at dine Be sacked an dumped in the Seine tae coo Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? Queen Blanche, as pure's the flooer-de-lys, Whase voice nae siren's could excel, Big-fuitit Bertha, Beatrice, An her that ruled the Maine hersel, Joan the Guid, the lass they tell The English brunt, though near-divine. . Whaur they are, Heiven's Queen, reveal: Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? Prince, this week I cannae well, Nor this year, say whaur noo they shine. Ask, ye'll but hear the owrecome swell: Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 30 07:24:23 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:24:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Basinski Poem In-Reply-To: <01c101c54d07$f63140e0$69b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <427332A7.21815.3A99F6@localhost> On 29 Apr 2005 at 18:08, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... One, of course, can say of any poem that a child could > make it, just as a child could make a Jackson Pollock painting. To > make a good case against a poem, one would have to tell exactly > what it does, and then show how some similar poem does much more.< Grumman here typically distorts what I said. This sort of straw- manning is his vade mecum. I said that a particular sort of child can do this sort of thing, and that it is the sort of thing one hopes to see from that particular sort of child as evidence that the child is starting to understand how language works. The notion that words have connotations as well as denotations, and that context matters, and that one can play in the interstices, is a step only a few children take. It's a joy to see in children; it's a bore to see in adults. We expect more and better from adults, and to see adults slam-dunking on the kiddie- height hoops and claiming great things for their "accomplishments" there is ridiculous. Marcus From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 30 07:38:15 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:38:15 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] _grab and run_ Message-ID: <003901c54d79$194808e0$a2ae3252@ANNY> Nothing to do with poetry (?) _ from the New York Times /first page __________________ April 30, 2005 Abduction, Often Violent, a Kyrgyz Wedding Rite By CRAIG S. SMITH ISHKEK, Kyrgyzstan - When Ainur Tairova realized she was on her way to her wedding, she started choking the driver. Her marriage was intended to be to a man she had met only the day before, and briefly at that. Several of his friends had duped her into getting into a car; they picked up the would-be groom and then headed for his home. Once there, she knew, her chances of leaving before nightfall would be slim, and by daybreak, according to local custom, she would have to submit to being his wife or leave as a tainted woman. "I told him I didn't want to date anyone," said Ms. Tairova, 28. "So he decided to kidnap me the next day." Such abductions are common here. More than half of Kyrgyzstan's married women were snatched from the street by their husbands in a custom known as "ala kachuu," which translates roughly as "grab and run." In its most benign form, it is a kind of elopement, in which a man whisks away a willing girlfriend. But often it is something more violent. Recent surveys suggest that the rate of abductions has steadily grown in the last 50 years and that at least a third of Kyrgyzstan's brides are now taken against their will. The custom predates the arrival of Islam in the 12th century and appears to have its roots in the region's once-marauding tribes, which periodically stole horses and women from rivals when supplies ran low. It is practiced in varying degrees across Central Asia but is most prevalent here in Kyrgyzstan, a poor, mountainous land that for decades was a backwater of the Soviet Union and has recently undergone political turmoil in which mass protests forced the president to resign. Kyrgyz men say they snatch women because it is easier than courtship and cheaper than paying the standard "bride price," which can be as much as $800 plus a cow. Family or friends often press a reluctant groom, lubricated with vodka and beer, into carrying out an abduction. A 2004 documentary by the Canadian filmmaker Petr Lom records a Kyrgyz family - men and women - discussing a planned abduction as if they were preparing to snatch an unruly mare. The film follows the men of the family as they wander through town hunting for the girl they had planned to kidnap. When they do not find her, they grab one they meet by chance. Talant Bakchiev, 34, a graduate student at the university in Bishkek, the capital, said he helped kidnap a bride for his brother not long ago. "Men steal women to show that they are men," he said, revealing a row of gold-capped teeth with his smile. Once a woman has been taken to a man's home, her future in-laws try to calm her down and get a white wedding shawl onto her head. The shawl, called a jooluk, is a symbol of her submission. Many women fight fiercely, but about 80 percent of those kidnapped eventually relent, often at the urging of their own parents. The practice has technically been illegal for years, first under the Soviet Union and more recently under the 1994 Kyrgyz criminal code, but the law rarely has been enforced. "Most people don't know it's illegal," said Russell Kleinbach, a sociology professor at American University in Bishkek whose studies of the practice have helped spur a national debate. The few prosecutions that do occur are usually for assault or rape, not for the abductions themselves. There are no national statistics on how many kidnappings go awry, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that some end in tragedy. Four days after the sister of one of Mr. Kleinbach's students was kidnapped a few years ago, her body was found in a river. The family that abducted her was never charged with murder. In Mr. Lom's film, a family mourns a daughter who hanged herself after being kidnapped; they too were unsuccessful in bringing the abductors to trial. Families use force to keep the women from leaving or threaten them with curses that still have a powerful impact in this deeply superstitious land. Once a girl has been kept in the home overnight, her fate is all but sealed: with her virginity suspect and her name disgraced, she will find it difficult to attract any other husband. Brutal as the custom is, it is widely perceived as practical. "Every good marriage begins in tears," a Kyrgyz saying goes. In Kyzyl-Tuu, a village not far from the capital, even the head man, Samar Bek, kidnapped his wife, Gypara, after she rejected his marriage proposals 16 years ago. She was a 20-year-old university student in Bishkek at the time and he, nine years older, was under family pressure to find a bride. Once at his family's home, she resisted for hours. "I stayed because I was scared, not because I liked him," Gypara said as the couple's four children played around her. Her husband said he would not object if one of his daughters were kidnapped. "If the feelings of the man are stronger than the feelings of my daughter, I'll let him take her," he said. "Love comes and goes." The threat of abduction begins to haunt women once they reach their teenage years. Some women attending universities wear wedding bands or head scarves to fool men into thinking they are already married. For Ms. Tairova, the anxiety began on the eve of her high school graduation when a friend confided to her that a man named Elim, eight years her senior, planned to kidnap her at the ceremony the next day. She attended the graduation but was terrified, unsure of whom she could trust. The would-be abductor never materialized. "I think this happens to all young women when they turn 16," Ms. Tairova said, sitting in an empty room of the American University, where she now works. She enrolled in the university in the southern Kyrgyz city of Jalal-Abad but soon learned that another family from her village was considering her as a bride for their son. Strangers began asking people at her school what she looked like. Then one evening there was a knock at the door of the apartment she shared with her sister. Outside were 10 men, including the would-be husband. For six hours, Ms. Tairova refused to step outside her apartment. Finally the men gave up and went away. Ms. Tairova went back to live with her parents and began working as a bookkeeper in a tobacco plant. One day a man came in and introduced himself. They spoke for about 20 minutes, but Ms. Tairova told him she was not interested in seeing him again. The next day she was kidnapped. She was waiting with two friends for the company bus to take them home when a car pulled up. The two men inside offered all three women a ride. One of her friends knew the men, so they agreed. But when the driver took a detour, she became worried. When he stopped to pick up the man from the day before, she started to scream. She grabbed the driver's neck and began to choke him, but the second man pulled her hands away. Desperate, knowing her only chance was to stop them before they reached her abductor's house, she blurted out in Russian that she "was not a girl anymore," a euphemism meaning she was no longer a virgin. It was a lie, but it worked. The driver pulled over and the men got out to discuss what she had said. They climbed back in, silent, and the driver made a U-turn to return the women back to their village. Ms. Tairova said her life in the village changed after that. Men showed no interest in her. People at the factory openly mocked her. Her father, angry that she had told such a damning lie but worried for her safety, escorted her to and from the bus stop each day. Finally her friends introduced her to a suitor willing to overlook her questionable past. She told him right away that she did not want to be abducted; he promised that he would not. After several months of dating, he asked her to marry him. She demurred. Then, one balmy September evening, she again found herself in a car filled with men, ostensibly on their way to a restaurant to meet other friends. But the car drove into the countryside and soon arrived at the farmhouse of her suitor's parents. By then Ms. Tairova was hysterical. The men dragged her from the car and carried her kicking into the house. She swore at her future mother-in-law. She ducked and struggled when the women tried to put the jooluk on her head. Close to midnight, she broke free and ran outside into the darkness, but the men caught her. Back in the house, Ms. Tairova refused to eat, drink or sleep as the night wore on. The next day her parents arrived and urged her to consent. "I was angry and I felt betrayed," Ms. Tairova said, adding that she had cried the whole day. But as with many Kyrgyz women, she eventually accepted her fate. She since has reconciled with her in-laws and says she is happy with her husband now. "He says he had to kidnap me because he heard someone else was trying to kidnap me first," she said. "He's a good man." ___________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rog3r.day at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 08:29:33 2005 From: rog3r.day at gmail.com (roger day) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:29:33 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lunatic Misreadings #19 In-Reply-To: <0d6001c54d20$dc339f30$fb032cd9@Robin> References: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com> <005601c54d01$af6a1c00$f06bdac3@computer> <0c3601c54d06$55dd0da0$fb032cd9@Robin> <0c5301c54d08$29ed6cb0$fb032cd9@Robin> <0c9901c54d09$bc936d70$fb032cd9@Robin> <0d6001c54d20$dc339f30$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: Not to inflate your ego too much, but I remember something about Einstein along the same lines. It goes something like this: After his initial huge discoveries, he spent a life-time proving/disproving the implications of his theories, and their collision with Quantum Theory and a lot of it subsequently proved wrong but in a productive manner with other scientists picking up the baton and moving science on. Unlike Niels Bohr who was proved right but who casts a smaller shadow over the subsequent science So, any reading is better than no reading at all, particularly if it leads to serendipitious readings like this. Roger. On 4/30/05, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I've been fascinated by "Gone Ladies" ever since I first encountered it, > and > there still bits I can't fathom -- "Stem Heloise aurene", for example (and > no, "Stem" *isn't* a misprint for "Stern") but one thing I thought I was > sure of was where Logue got: > > And who, within her arms and small, > Lies hard by Josephine? > > "It is obvious," I said, in front of a large freshman poetry class, with > absolute assurance, "that Logue is echoing Thomas Wyatt's line, 'And she me > caught in her arms long and small' ", when this kid who'd never opened her > mouth in an entire six months of seminars tentatively put up her hand up. > > "Yes?" I said condescendingly. > > "Isn't it simply the case that Napoleon wasn't very tall?" > > "Ulp!" I said (that being my usual response when I realise I've been > totally > blown out of the water), thought for about twenty seconds, and reluctantly > responded, "Do you know, that had never bloody occurred to me, but of > course > I have to admit you're absolutely dead right." > > The student beamed all over her face, promptly developed a quite > considerable degree of self-confidence and eventually got a first class > degree. (She had been shy till then but she was always bright.) > > So sometimes being wrong can be right. > > Do I really mean that? Or is it simple self-justification? > > Being so totally and utterly wrong on my part, and the student's pointing > out the simple Napoleon thing -- obvious in retrospect, but which never > *had* occurred to me till then -- did wonders for the kid's ego. > > So, well, there it goes. > > Robin > > > Who does Sheherazade enthral? > > And who, within her arms and small, > > Lies hard by Josephine? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- http://www.badstep.net From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 08:43:50 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:43:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lunatic Misreadings #19 References: <8a.25dfff1c.2fa2cd05@cs.com><005601c54d01$af6a1c00$f06bdac3@computer><0c3601c54d06$55dd0da0$fb032cd9@Robin><0c5301c54d08$29ed6cb0$fb032cd9@Robin><0c9901c54d09$bc936d70$fb032cd9@Robin><0d6001c54d20$dc339f30$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <000f01c54d82$426d1720$fd9c9951@Robin> From: "roger day" > and a lot of it subsequently proved wrong but in a productive manner Not to equate myself with Einstein (though I'm totally happy for you to do this for me, Roger), I do think that "constructive misreading" can be a quite powerful tool. Then I think, "But of course, Robin, you're only using this concept to excuse your bred-in-the-bone sloppiness." The Stickit Pedant From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 30 08:59:52 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:59:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of mine References: <427332A7.21815.3A99F6@localhost> Message-ID: <006a01c54d84$80329e70$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Cryptographiku for Wallace Stevens spsjpi sxqqhu cwuvmn winter Just to help the stasguards at New-Poetry feel even more complacently superior than usual, let me say that I consider this a major poem. Certainly, it's one of my best. --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 30 09:03:30 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:03:30 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of mine References: <427332A7.21815.3A99F6@localhost> <006a01c54d84$80329e70$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005c01c54d85$021fe140$a2ae3252@ANNY> I don't think there are many stasguards round here Bob. At least not among the ones that I do not filter. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 2:59 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] One of mine > Cryptographiku for Wallace Stevens > > spsjpi > > sxqqhu > > cwuvmn > > winter > > Just to help the stasguards at New-Poetry feel even more complacently > superior than usual, let me say that I consider this a major poem. > Certainly, it's one of my best. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 09:23:52 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:23:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Most Lethal Student One-Line Put Downs Ever References: <1df.3af3a627.2fa4378c@cs.com> <0dd801c54d28$691658f0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <004f01c54d87$da4e85b0$fd9c9951@Robin> The worst I had was while I was covering for a sick colleague, so it wasn't really my area of [even minimal] expertise (excuses, excuses) and giving this seminar on George Crabbe, explaining how fascinating Crabbe was, especially compared to Oliver Goldsmith, when Alexis Kiff said in a quiet but penetrating voice, "Doctor Hamilton, isn't Crabbe simply a classic example of sentimental pessimism?" Well, there might be a riposte to that, but I sure as hell couldn't think of one at the time. Still can't. Robin (Oh, I ought to be grateful to her -- she was, later, the unnamed and unknowing heroine of one of the only two poems I ever published in POETRY (Chicago). So ... WTG. R.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 09:52:05 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:52:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Henley/Villon References: <731bb17a05042418296a6b823@mail.gmail.com> <02a801c54943$75c8af50$5fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <008801c54d8b$cb296dd0$fd9c9951@Robin> WE Henley's "Villon's Straight Tip to All Cros Coves" ... ... my favourite gloss to date: As an explanation of: Or moskeneer, or flash the drag "Pawn items at an inflated price, or wear women's clothes for immoral purposes" R. From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Sat Apr 30 11:06:48 2005 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:06:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 In-Reply-To: <4272CA4A.20898.480767@localhost> References: <0ea501c54d34$3e6b3a60$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20050430095335.01b00130@cyrus.undsmhs.net> At 11:59 PM 4/29/2005 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: >On 30 Apr 2005 at 4:25, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Can we at least agree on "the jewel/crystal-like Heloise"? Would work > > in either case. > > (Well, OK, "aureate" is strictly gold or gold-like, but that's not the > > problem -- the problem is "Stem".) > >In the glass biz, it takes gold to make red glass; one adulterates >the glass with gold and heats it once and gets red. Heat it again and >often one gets brown. > >M Marcus, please correct me if I am in error: "Aurene" appears to be (from what I can gather on the Web) a "brand" name chosen by Frederick Carder of Steuben Glass to identify his "new" iridescent art-glass creations (initially gold-hued, IIRC?), which led to a duel in the courts with Louis Tiffany over Tiffany's claim of patent infringement. (Tiffany lost.) Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 30 11:13:15 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:13:15 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] DETOUR - petra backonja Message-ID: <004201c54d97$225d56b0$a2ae3252@ANNY> DETOUR It's no use. Black wires clap on the heat to Unfamiliar moans from Mars. The better worlds or maybe just more of them an with more perfect intent rain down on poor automatic hens and electric butlers and cut them to bits already cut on their own star- maps and their small dashed heaps, by my soul. fr. io not io petra backonja http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_ionotio.pdf _________________________ Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 30 11:22:47 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:22:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Most Lethal Student One-Line Put Downs Ever In-Reply-To: <004f01c54d87$da4e85b0$fd9c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <42736A87.27284.114DA05@localhost> On 30 Apr 2005 at 14:23, Robin Hamilton wrote: > The worst I had was whileI was covering for a sick colleague, so it > wasn't really my area of [even minimal] expertise(excuses, excuses) > and giving this seminar on George Crabbe, explaining how fascinating > Crabbe was, especially compared to Oliver Goldsmith, when Alexis Kiff > said in a quiet but penetrating voice, "Doctor Hamilton, isn't Crabbe > simply a classic example of sentimental pessimism?" "Pessimistic sentimentalism at best, I'm afraid." Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 30 11:33:12 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:33:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] One of mine References: <427332A7.21815.3A99F6@localhost><006a01c54d84$80329e70$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005c01c54d85$021fe140$a2ae3252@ANNY> Message-ID: <008b01c54d99$ebd7f160$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> >I don't think there are many stasguards round here Bob. At least not among >the ones that I do not filter. Yeah, but *I* iz the one defining the term, Anny, so *I* getz to say. (You aren't one, though, and there are certainly others.) --Prof. Grumman, Stasguardology Dept., Port Charlotte Institute of Busrtnorm Poetry, Florida From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 30 11:48:33 2005 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:48:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring books Message-ID: The Academy of American Poets has a nifty new (?) feature up at their website. It's a list of books new & forthcoming this spring, with links to sample poems and other info. http://www.poets.org/npm/books/index.cfm Worth a look. I didn't know, for example, that there is a selected James Wright coming out. Most welcome new book, for me, is Brendan Galvin's new-and-selected, *Habitat*, from LSU. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 30 11:50:28 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:50:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 In-Reply-To: <0df901c54d2c$c6dc3ff0$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <42737104.25191.12E34CC@localhost> On 30 Apr 2005 at 3:31, Robin Hamilton wrote: > To stem is to stop. Stop the aureate (I assume) Heloise before she > does any damage. > > Is Thais still? Is Nell ? And can > Stem Heloise aurene, > Whose so-by-love-enchanted man > Sooner would risk castration than > Abandon her, be seen ? > > Problem one -- is "stem" a noun (unlikely), an adjective (where I'm > at) or a verb (your reading)? > > I'm not really happy with your reading -- just *who* will stem the > aureate Heliose? (And why --it really wasn't her fault anyway, and > frankly Abelard was a right schmuck.) > > {I think why I still plump for an adjective of whatever meaning is > that the syntax of "Stem Heloise aurene" pushes "stem" towards an > adjectival reference more than anything else.} > > I'd agree that what we have is "Heloise aurene" means "the aureate > Heloise", but I'm still bothered by trying work around "stem". > > I really shouldn't, but I'll Append my Heloise and Abelard text (from > +The Sparrow and the Spider+) -- late night indulgence. > > Robin Is it a mis-print or mis-typing of "stern"? Did some copyist glancing at "stern" miss the tiny gap in some serif typeface between r and n and type or write m? Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 30 11:52:14 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:52:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20050430095335.01b00130@cyrus.undsmhs.net> References: <4272CA4A.20898.480767@localhost> Message-ID: <4273716E.11009.12FD343@localhost> On 30 Apr 2005 at 10:06, Richard Wilsnack wrote: > At 11:59 PM 4/29/2005 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: > >On 30 Apr 2005 at 4:25, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > Can we at least agree on "the jewel/crystal-like Heloise"? Would > > > work in either case. (Well, OK, "aureate" is strictly gold or > > > gold-like, but that's not the problem -- the problem is "Stem".) > > > >In the glass biz, it takes gold to make red glass; one adulterates > >the glass with gold and heats it once and gets red. Heat it again and > >often one gets brown. > > Marcus, please correct me if I am in error: > "Aurene" appears to be (from what I can gather on the Web) > a "brand" name chosen by Frederick Carder of Steuben Glass > to identify his "new" iridescent art-glass creations (initially > gold-hued, IIRC?), which led to a duel in the courts with Louis > Tiffany over Tiffany's claim of patent infringement. (Tiffany lost.) Not in error, but the case didn't go to court where Tiffany lost, I believe -- it was settled, but Steuben and Loetz continued to make iridized glass afterwards, so I suppose Tiffany did not succeed in keeping his competitors out of the market. I guess the question is whether Christopher Logue would have used the word "aurene" in its brand-name sense of "iridescent" or did he think he was neologizing on "aur" in a way that now looks similar to Carder's way? In Logue's other work did he use brand names this way? Did he neologize? I'm sorry to say I'm unfamiliar with his work and translations. Marcus From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 30 12:02:23 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:02:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic misreadings In-Reply-To: <0e9501c54d32$f8f7cc60$fb032cd9@Robin> Message-ID: <427373CF.10144.1391BAF@localhost> Would someone be so kind as to re-send Mr Logue's poem? I seem to have deleted the email that contained it. Thanks Marcus From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 30 15:14:35 2005 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:14:35 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring books References: Message-ID: <002d01c54db8$d93f6960$08ab3852@ANNY> Thank you David, I choose this: Excerpt from "the theory and practice of postmodernism - a manifesto" about two years ago elly and i decided we needed a new mattress or maybe elly decided it because i didnt pay much attention to the problem we had an old mattress wed had it for years and the salesman wed bought it from had assured us it would last us a lifetime and it was getting older and lumpy or lumpy in some places and hollowed out in others and i just assumed it was part of a normal process of aging it was getting older we were getting older and wed get used to it but eleanor has a bad back and she was getting desperate to get rid of this mattress that had lived with us for such a long time and so lotally that i thought i knew all its high points and low points its eminences and pitfalls and i was sure that at night my body worked its way carefully around the lumps dodging the precipices and moving to solider ground whenever it could but maybe eleanor sleeps more heavily than i do i have a feeling that i spent much of my life at night avoiding the pitfalls of this mattress that i was used to and it was a skill id acquired over the ten or fifteen years of this mattress' life so I felt there was no reason to get rid of this mattress that had been promised to us by a salesman who said it would last the rest of our lives i figured we were going to live long lives i didnt think we were anywhere close to dying so neither was the mattress but eleanor kept waking up with backaches still i figured it was a good mattress and that elly just didnt have enough skill at avoiding the lumps it never occurred to me that the mattress was at fault so i didnt do anything and elly didnt do anything because shes not into consumer products and hates to go shopping but by the end of a year elly convinced me because she has a sensitive back and i dont that she had a more accurate understanding of this business than i did so I said sure eleanor lets get a new mattress were rebuilding the house as long as were going to have a new house we may as well have a new mattress but eleanor said how will i know its a good one i dont want to get another mattress that gets hollowed and lumpy and gives me backaches when i wake up how will i know how to get a good one i said well open the yellow pages and well look up mattresses and therell be several places that sell them and ill close my eyes and point a finger at one of these places and it will be a place that has lots of mattresses where we can make a choice as to what constitutes a good one by lying on them Copyright ? 2005 by David Antin. From i never knew what time it was. Reprinted with permission of the University of California Press. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 5:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring books > The Academy of American Poets has a nifty new (?) feature up at their > website. It's a list of books new & forthcoming this spring, with links > to > sample poems and other info. > > http://www.poets.org/npm/books/index.cfm > > Worth a look. I didn't know, for example, that there is a selected James > Wright coming out. > > Most welcome new book, for me, is Brendan Galvin's new-and-selected, > *Habitat*, from LSU. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 30 15:26:02 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:26:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lunatic Misreadings #19 Message-ID: <96.266f41c5.2fa535ca@cs.com> In a message dated 4/30/2005 2:53:23 AM Central Daylight Time, dwaber at logolalia.com writes: > > >On 30 Apr 2005 at 4:25, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >>Can we at least agree on "the jewel/crystal-like Heloise"? Would work > >>in either case. > >>(Well, OK, "aureate" is strictly gold or gold-like, but that's not the > >>problem -- the problem is "Stem".) > > > >In the glass biz, it takes gold to make red glass; one adulterates > >the glass with gold and heats it once and gets red. Heat it again and > >often one gets brown. > > It takes gold to make pink glass. The reds are made with copper or > selenium. If we're talking about the original melt of silica sand, > soda ash, etc., that is. > > Dan This is such a weird periodic sentence that I suspect "stern" instead of "stem." Does anyone have Logue's book? The online versions have "stem." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 30 15:29:33 2005 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:29:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons -- around the internet In-Reply-To: <007401c54d68$799802b0$fd9c9951@Robin> Message-ID: <4273A45D.20114.1F5D92C@localhost> Ballade (des dames de temps jadis) Fran?ois Villon Dictes moy ou, n'en quel pays, Est Flora la belle Rommaine, Archipiades ne Tha?s, Qui fut sa cousine germaine, Echo parlant quant bruyt on maine Dessus riviere ou sus estan, Qui beault? ot trop plus q'humaine. Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan? Ou est la tres sage Hello?s, Pour qui chastr? fut et puis moyne Pierre Esbaillart a Saint Denis? Pour son amour ot ceste essoyne. Semblablement, ou est la royne Qui commanda que Buridan Fust get? en ung sac en Saine? Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan? La royne Blanche comme lis Qui chantoit a voix de seraine, Berte au grand pi?, Beatris, Alis, Haremburgis qui tint le Maine, Et Jehanne la bonne Lorraine Qu'Englois brulerent a Rouan; Ou sont ilz, ou, Vierge souvraine? Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan? Prince, n'enquerez de sepmaine Ou elles sont, ne de cest an, Qu'a ce reffrain ne vous remaine: Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan? Ballat o the Leddies o aulden times, Francois Villon Tom Scott Tell me whaur, in whit countrie Bides Flora noo, yon Roman belle? Whaur Archipiades, Thais be; Thir douce cuisins, can ye tell Whaur gossipin Echo draws pell-mell Abuin some burn owre-hung wi bine Her beautie's mair than human spell: Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? Whaur's Heloise, yon wyce abbess Fur whome Pete Abelard manless fell, Yet luvin still, at Saunt Denniss Wroucht oot his days in cloistered cell? And say whaur yon queen is as well That ordert Buridan at dine Be sacked an dumped in the Seine tae coo Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? Queen Blanche, as pure's the flooer-de-lys, Whase voice nae siren's could excel, Big-fuitit Bertha, Beatrice, An her that ruled the Maine hersel, Joan the Guid, the lass they tell The English brunt, though near-divine. . Whaur they are, Heiven's Queen, reveal: Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? Prince, this week I cannae well, Nor this year, say whaur noo they shine. Ask, ye'll but hear the owrecome swell: Aye, whaur are the snaws lang syne? JADIS BALLADE OF THE LADIES OF TIME PAST Fran?ois Villon Peter Dale The lovely Roman, her country's where? Archipiades, Tha?s that shone, Her cousin once removed? And fair Echo speaking across the air Of pools and meadows where sounds go, Her beauty more than human share: Where is the drift of last year's snow? Where's Helo?se the learned gone, For whom had Abelard to bear Castration and monk's habit don In St Denis? For love Pierre Endured this pain. And likewise where The Queen who had them sack and throw Buridan in the Seine down there? Where is the drift of last year's snow? Where's queen Blanche, like lily, swan - -With siren voice she'd sing an air? Big-footed Bertha, Beatrice gone; Alice, and Arembourg, Maine's heir; Lorraine's good Joan, in Rouen square Burnt by the English. Where d'they go, O Queen and Virgin, tell me where, Where is the drift of last year's snow? Prince, do not ask in a fortnight where, Nor yet again in a year or so. This is the burden of the air: Where is the drift of last year's snow? GONE LADIES Christopher Logue: Where in the world is Helen gone, Whose loveliness demolished Troy? Where is Salome? Where the wan Licentious Queen of Avalon? Who sees My Lady Fontenoy? And where is Joan, so soldier tall? And She who bore God's only Boy? Where is the snow we watched last Fall ? Is Thais still? Is Nell ? And can Stem Heloise aurene, Whose so-by-love-enchanted man Sooner would risk castration than Abandon her, be seen ? Who does Sheherazade enthral? And who, within her arms and small, Lies hard by Josephine? Through what eventless territory Are Ladies Day and Joplin swept? What news of Marilyn who crept Into an endless reverie? You saw Lucrece ? And Jane? And she, Salvation's ancient blame-it-all, Delicious Eve ? Then answer me: Where is the snow we watched last Fall? Girl, never seek to know from me Who was the fairest of them all. What wouldst thou say if I asked thee: Where is the snow we watched last Fall? Ballade (des dames de temps jadis) Fran?ois Villon c.1461 Dante Gabriel Rossetti Tell me now in what hidden is Lady Flora the lovely Roman? Where's Hipparchia, and where is Thais, Neither of them the fairer woman? Where is Echo, beheld of no man, Only heard on river and mere,-- She whose beauty was more than human?... But where are the snows of yester-year? Where's Heloise, the learned nun, For whose sake Abeillard, I ween, Lost manhood and put priesthood on? (From Love he won such dule and teen!) And where, I pray you, is the Queen Who willed that Buridan should steer Sewed in a sack's mouth down the Seine?... But where are the snows of yester-year? White Queen Blanche, like a queen of lilies, With a voice like any mermaiden,-- Bertha Broadfoot, Beatrice, Alice, And Ermengarde the lady of Maine,-- And that good Joan whom Englishmen At Rouen doomed and burned her there,-- Mother of God, where are they then?... But where are the snows of yester-year? Nay, never ask this week, fair lord, Where they are gone, nor yet this year, Except with this for an overword,-- But where are the snows of yester-year? Ballade of Dead Ladies Bye Bye in Blue: Ballade well after Villon Fran?ois Villon Martin Sorrell Where's Flora Foster Jenkins now, eh? Tell Me. Not Carnegie Hall! And where the hell 's that Archie Shepp (he's gone, big joke, to ground), And Thelonius Monk who vanished round Midnight in an echo of minor key Riffs, and his cousin-in-music Gerry Mulligan, that elegant riverrun Flowed by? Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? Helo?se to Abelard: 'Sing to me A low, low song.' One orchidectomy Later he's way up on the treble clef And still climbing. They should say love is deaf Not blind. Blind is pianoman George Shearing, Full moon smile... Where now the hard-of-hearing Johnny Ray, and the quietly flowing Don Cherry? Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? Remember those dames, the gratefully dead Julia Lee, wild Bessie Smith, Mildred Bailey, and poor-white-trash Janis Joplin Slave-howling twelve to a bar, mainlining Horse? And Lady Day, street-girl on No Choice Boulevard? Strange fruit hanging out. Her voice Rang like a bell and went a mile, said John Mercer. Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? Each one of us, man, we all got to go. So here's our last number, a slow-tempo Ballad we've called Bye Bye in Blue... A-one A-two... Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? BALLADE: THE LADIES OF LONG AGO Fran?ois Villon Patricia Terry & Maurice Z.Shroder Tell me where, in what land, I'll find Flora that fair Roman lady, Alcibiades or Thais, So much like her, as if blood kin, Echo whose voice is heard when you Call out where streams or rivers flow, Her beauty not of human kind? Well, where is last year's snow? Where is the learned Heloise For whom was Peter Abelard Gelded and then, at Saint Denis, A monk; for love he suffered so. I also ask, where is the queen Who had her lover, Buridan, Tied in a sack, tossed in the Seine? Well, where is last year's snow? Queen Blanche, like a lily, who sang With a siren's enchanting voice, Bigfoot Bertha, Beatrice, Alice, Erembourg whose dower was Maine, And Joan, the brave maid of Lorraine, Burned by the English, as you know, Where are they, Queen of Virgins, where? Well, where is last year's snow? Prince, don't inquire of me this week Where they may be, nor yet this year, For my response will not be slow: Well, where is last year's snow? The Ballad of the Ladies of Yore Fran?ois Villon Marcel Kopp Where, pray tell me, in which land, where is Flora the fair Roman? and Archipiades and Tha?s, all cousins in art and voice? Echo, she spoke where we bellowed across rivers, over ponds, held more beauty than human should. But whither have gone the snows of yore? Where is that most wise Helo?s for whom was gelded then monk became Pierre Esbaillart at Saint-Dennis? For her love he made the sacrifice. Where, pray tell me, is the queen who ordered noble Jean Buridan to be sacked then thrown into Seine? But whither have gone the snows of yore? And Blanche the lily-white queen who sang with the voice of a siren? Bertha the slender-footed, Beatrice, Alice? Haremburgis who held all of Maine? And Joan the just maid of Lorraine who in Rouen the English burned? Where are they? Where, Virgin supreme? But whither have gone the snows of yore? Prince, let no week pass save you ask where they are; and throughout the present year until it be that you too come up with this refrain: But whither have gone the snows of yore? Ballade of the Ladies of Bygone Times Francois Villon Andrew Weir Tell me from where I could entice Flora the famous Roman whore, or Archipiada or Tha?s who they say was just as fair; or Echo answering everywhere across stream and pool and mere, whose beauty was like none before - where are the snows of yesteryear ? Where is the learned H?lo?se for whose love Abelard became a gelded monk at Saint-Denis, yet still could not put out his flame ? And where now is that royal dame who had men for three days with her then had them cast into the Seine ? Where are the snows of yesteryear ? Queen Blanche who had a siren's voice, white as a lily on the plain; Big-Footed Bertha, by Heaven's choice mother of great Charlemagne; and Joan of Arc from proud Lorraine the English burned from cruel fear - where are they, where, O Mother of Men ? Where are the snows of yesteryear ? Don't ask,Prince, in one month again, nor yet in twelve where they all are; I'd only give you this refrain: Where are the snows of yesteryear ? Ballade (des dames de temps jadis) Fran?ois Villon c.1461 Robin Shirley Tell me where, or in what land, is Flora the fair Roman girl, Archipiada, or Tha?s, who was her match in beauty's hall, Echo who answered when one called over rivers or still pools, whose loveliness was more than human? Where are the snows of yesteryear? Where is H?lo?se, so wise, for whom Pierre Abelard was first unmanned then cloistered up at Saint Denis? For her love he bore these trials. And where now can one find that queen by whose command was Buridan thrown in a sack into the Seine? Where are the snows of yesteryear? Queen Blanche, light as a lily, who sang with a mermaid's voice, Bertha Bigfoot, Beatrice, Alice, Arembourg, heiress to Maine, and Joan the good maid of Lorraine whom the English griddled at Rouen; where are they, where, O Sovereign Virgin? Where are the snows of yesteryear? Prince, don't ask me in a week or in a year what place they are; I can only give you this refrain: Where are the snows of yesteryear? From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 30 15:57:21 2005 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:57:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring books References: Message-ID: <00b001c54dbe$d2b6d690$5db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hey, one a my boys has a book listed--Robert Gregory (of Florida)--although I only had a brief, long-ago correspondence with him. Some of his poetry is visual. I don't know what's in his book. The list a a nice community service I will admit--but, gee, I think how nice it would be if the academy classified the books by school of poetry, and had objective reviews of them. Spend money on that instead of on awards to the previously-certified. And knownstream books would get more reviews than otherstream books because more numerous, which would be okay with me. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:48 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring books > The Academy of American Poets has a nifty new (?) feature up at their > website. It's a list of books new & forthcoming this spring, with links > to > sample poems and other info. > > http://www.poets.org/npm/books/index.cfm > > Worth a look. I didn't know, for example, that there is a selected James > Wright coming out. > > Most welcome new book, for me, is Brendan Galvin's new-and-selected, > *Habitat*, from LSU. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 16:11:46 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:11:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords References: <4273A45D.20114.1F5D92C@localhost> Message-ID: <01b401c54dc0$d63f0100$fd9c9951@Robin> Mine, this time .. R. DEAD HEROES ("Put out that bloody cigarette!") Where's Brooke whose soldier into cleanness leaping met with a fever at Sebastapol? Owen that grim public schoolboy, his friend Mad Jack of the gallant sortie, Saki, whose immaculate Reginalds lit cigarettes to sight a sniper's gun? Soldiers from the wars returning, or unreturned now equally invest a barren earth. Sidney's fine words are married to his dust, While Ralegh's pride rests with his son; The names of similar kings blur in the record -- A train of Stewarts ascends the Scottish throne. The bright sword flung high and spinning like a coin Before the Norman host on bloody Hasting's field; The courageous dead acknowledged by thankful survivors, Their younger brothers anonymous beside them: The radios gone silent for the honoured dead. Is there more to say of this frail world and its deceits? Against death we can make no provision, no hoarded store of honour may prevail. Where's Arthur now, that noble king, with all his bright knights in train, And Lancelot who wooed Guinevere, Gawaine tall as a giant at midday -- All that brave route of horsed men with their spears: Where is the troop of Charlemagne today? Lord God who accounts the hosts who fell And numbers each one of those unremarkable dead, Exacting a willing price for honour's fitful dust, Where is the troop of Charlemagne today? From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Apr 30 17:37:27 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:37:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords In-Reply-To: <01b401c54dc0$d63f0100$fd9c9951@Robin> Message-ID: So you're on newpo too... Nice. I would drop the subtitle --- the wise would not be wiser, and the unwise would be none the wiser. P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Robin Hamilton > Sent: 30 April 2005 21:12 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords > > Mine, this time .. > > R. > > DEAD HEROES > > ("Put out that bloody cigarette!") > > Where's Brooke whose soldier into cleanness leaping > met with a fever at Sebastapol? > Owen that grim public schoolboy, his friend > Mad Jack of the gallant sortie, > Saki, whose immaculate Reginalds > lit cigarettes to sight a sniper's gun? > Soldiers from the wars returning, or unreturned > now equally invest a barren earth. > > Sidney's fine words are married to his dust, While Ralegh's > pride rests with his son; The names of similar kings blur in > the record -- > A train of Stewarts ascends the Scottish throne. > The bright sword flung high and spinning like a coin > Before the Norman host on bloody Hasting's field; > The courageous dead acknowledged by thankful survivors, Their > younger brothers anonymous beside them: > The radios gone silent for the honoured dead. > > Is there more to say of this frail world > and its deceits? > Against death we can make no provision, > no hoarded store of honour may prevail. > Where's Arthur now, that noble king, > with all his bright knights in train, And > Lancelot who wooed Guinevere, > Gawaine tall as a giant at midday -- All that > brave route of horsed men with their spears: > Where is the troop of Charlemagne today? > > Lord God who accounts the hosts who fell And numbers each one > of those unremarkable dead, Exacting a willing price for > honour's fitful dust, > Where is the troop of Charlemagne today? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 18:11:12 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:11:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords References: Message-ID: <01e201c54dd1$85222c00$fd9c9951@Robin> > Nice. I would drop the subtitle --- the wise would not be wiser, and the > unwise would be none the wiser. > > P Right. Point. I only tacked the Piaf-esque remark onto the pome for New Poetry at the last minute. Do you know if it's true, what he's supposed to have said? Seems almost too emblematic to be true. Like the reason why no one would take a third drag from a lucifer -- One to see two to sight three to shoot ... so whoever took the third light from a match was was dead dead dead. Bit programmatic really, and what the fuck would have Munro have done had he lived? Outlived Bassington? The only one who outlived the Curse of the Trenches was Graves, and look what happened to *him*. ... and Leavis ... The good died much too young then. ... as ever Robin From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 30 19:30:39 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:30:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords Message-ID: <1df.3b00914e.2fa56f1f@cs.com> Is Tha'i's still? Is Neil? and can Stem Heloise aurene. Whose so-by-love-enchanted man Sooner would risk castration than Abandon her, be seen? Given the messed-up umlaut on Thais and the period for comma after "aurene," this would seem to be a badly OCRed version. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Apr 30 19:43:03 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 00:43:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords In-Reply-To: <01e201c54dd1$85222c00$fd9c9951@Robin> Message-ID: They said, first sight of the match to realize there was a shot; second lighting of the cigarette to get your sight; third lighting you'd got your man. Thing is, every time the snipers got one, they'd think this was true; no one remembers the times when the sniper missed. P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Robin Hamilton > Sent: 30 April 2005 23:11 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords > > > Nice. I would drop the subtitle --- the wise would not be > wiser, and > > the unwise would be none the wiser. > > > > P > > Right. > > Point. > > I only tacked the Piaf-esque remark onto the pome for New > Poetry at the last minute. > > Do you know if it's true, what he's supposed to have said? > > Seems almost too emblematic to be true. > > Like the reason why no one would take a third drag from a lucifer -- > > One to see > two to sight > three to shoot > > ... so whoever took the third light from a match was was dead > dead dead. > > Bit programmatic really, and what the fuck would have Munro > have done had he lived? > > Outlived Bassington? > > The only one who outlived the Curse of the Trenches was > Graves, and look what happened to *him*. > > ... and Leavis ... > > The good died much too young then. > > ... as ever > > Robin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Apr 30 19:55:54 2005 From: peter.cudmore at blueyonder.co.uk (Peter Cudmore) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 00:55:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords In-Reply-To: <01e201c54dd1$85222c00$fd9c9951@Robin> Message-ID: Btw, don't know if you're quoting from the Collected Shorter Poems of Tom Scott, but (boast, gloat) I think that was the most beautiful book I ever made. (And what a hard time I got for putting Agenda in front of Chapman in the publishers' credits; just alphabetical order, I thought.) I only met Tom the once. What a majestic man. P > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Robin Hamilton > Sent: 30 April 2005 23:11 > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords > > > Nice. I would drop the subtitle --- the wise would not be > wiser, and > > the unwise would be none the wiser. > > > > P > > Right. > > Point. > > I only tacked the Piaf-esque remark onto the pome for New > Poetry at the last minute. > > Do you know if it's true, what he's supposed to have said? > > Seems almost too emblematic to be true. > > Like the reason why no one would take a third drag from a lucifer -- > > One to see > two to sight > three to shoot > > ... so whoever took the third light from a match was was dead > dead dead. > > Bit programmatic really, and what the fuck would have Munro > have done had he lived? > > Outlived Bassington? > > The only one who outlived the Curse of the Trenches was > Graves, and look what happened to *him*. > > ... and Leavis ... > > The good died much too young then. > > ... as ever > > Robin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Apr 30 20:53:47 2005 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 01:53:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords References: Message-ID: <021001c54de8$3b6ae5e0$fd9c9951@Robin> From: "Peter Cudmore" > Btw, don't know if you're quoting from the Collected Shorter Poems of Tom > Scott, but (boast, gloat) I think that was the most beautiful book I ever > made. (And what a hard time I got for putting Agenda in front of Chapman in > the publishers' credits; just alphabetical order, I thought.) > > I only met Tom the once. What a majestic man. > > P Scanned from a Penguin Anthology. I hate to say this, but Tom Scott's book on Dunbar was about the most gut-wrenchingly ludicrous book on Dunbar after Rachal Annan Taylor's thirties fiasco that I ever encountered. Mind you, all the second-generation Children-of-McDiarmid, for all of me, could all have been dumped into a toureen of soup and boiled up for kaile (with the exception of Robert Garrioch) and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. I have a particular ... distaste ... for Alexander Scott. But that's personal. :-( Robin From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au Sat Apr 30 22:31:18 2005 From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:31:18 +1000 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Malleable Jangle the shiny shiny red glassware edition/Issue 6/May is now online. In-Reply-To: <200504301600.j3UG04Rf018872@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20050501023118.1347.qmail@web51405.mail.yahoo.com> Help celebrate the six-month anniversary of Malleable Jangle by going to the website and reading the poetry there. http://malleablejangle.netfirms.com/index.htm The shiny shiny red glassware edition/Issue 6/May is now online. As usual we have a fine selection of International, and home-grown poets for your enjoyment. So if you enjoy, or would like to enjoy the poetry of: Charles D#8217;Anastasi Michael Estabrook Matt Hetherington Jill Jones Donna Kuhn Rob McLennan Soham Patel Frederick Pollack Hal Sirowitz Santiago B. Villafania Please log on and stay a while; you'll be glad you did. Malleable Jangle would like to thank the above contributor for their excellent work. Best regards, Robert Lane. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 30 23:59:28 2005 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:59:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Alternative Villons --Not Ladies but Lords Message-ID: BYE BYE IN BLUE: BALLAD (WELL) AFTER VILLON tr. Martin Sorrell Where's Flora Foster Jenkins now, eh? Tell Me. Not Carnegie Hall! And where the hell 's that Archie Shepp (he's gone, big joke, to ground), And Thelonius Monk who vanished round Midnight in an echo of minor key Riffs, and his cousin-in-music Gerry Mulligan, that elegant riverrun Flowed by? Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? Helo?se to Abelard: 'Sing to me A low, low song.' One orchidectomy Later he's way up on the treble clef And still climbing. They should say love is deaf Not blind. Blind is pianoman George Shearing, Full moon smile... Where now the hard-of-hearing Johnny Ray, and the quietly flowing Don Cherry? Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? Remember those dames, the gratefully dead Julia Lee, wild Bessie Smith, Mildred Bailey, and poor-white-trash Janis Joplin Slave-howling twelve to a bar, mainlining Horse? And Lady Day, street-girl on No Choice Boulevard? Strange fruit hanging out. Her voice Rang like a bell and went a mile, said John Mercer. Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? Each one of us, man, we all got to go. So here's our last number, a slow-tempo Ballad we've called Bye Bye in Blue... A-one A-two... Yeah, where have all the flowers gone? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: