From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov  1 05:41:21 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:41:21 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Katherine Dunham
Message-ID: <00a001c4bfff$542038a0$94ec3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:51:13 -0400
 > From: "Laura Gottesman" <lgot at loc.gov>

The Music Division of the Library of Congress is pleased to announce the
release of a new Web collection focusing on the career of
dancer-choreographer Katherine Dunham on the "I Hear America
Singing" Web site http://www.loc.gov/ihas/.

The online Katherine Dunham Collection presentation makes available a
selection of photographs from the Library of Congress, The Missouri
Historical Society, and Southern Illinois University; film and videotape
excerpts from Dunham's research and performing career; and selections
from the Library's Dunham Legacy Project that document the Dunham dance
technique. In addition, a complete inventory of the Collection is
included.

The Katherine Dunham Collection was created with the generous support
of the Doris Duke Charitable Foundation, which enabled the Library to
acquire significant portions of Dunham's archives, originally housed
at the Dunham Centers in East St. Louis, Illinois.

Born in 1909 in Chicago, Katherine Dunham is an American
dancer-choreographer who is best known for incorporating African
American, Caribbean, African, and South American movement styles and
themes into her ballets. As a young dancer and student at the University
of Chicago, she chose anthropology as her course of study. The union of
dance and anthropology would have a profound impact on her choreographic
style throughout her career.

In addition to a career that has included Broadway performances,
feature films, choreography, and national and international tours,
Dunham was a recipient of the Kennedy Center Honors in 1983, and in 2000
she was named one of "America's Irreplaceable Dance Treasures: the first
100" by the Dance Heritage Coalition. She has continued to teach the
Dunham technique to young dancers at the Dunham Centers in East Saint
Louis, where she brings an awareness of Caribbean and African art to
area residents.

With the acquisition of the Katherine Dunham  collection, the Library
of Congress has become a premiere source of information on Dunham's
legacy--a legacy that encompasses choreographic works, technique and
teaching, performance and production, anthropological analysis of the
dance and ritual of the African diaspora, global activism and leadership
in human rights, and advocacy in the local African American community.

"I Hear America Singing" is a new Library of Congress Web site
available at http://www.loc.gov/ihas/, which invites visitors to
experience the diversity of American performing arts through the
Library's unsurpassed collections of scores, sheet music, audio
recordings, films, photographs, maps, and other materials.  Special
presentations on selected topics highlight some of the unique and
unusual materials in the Library's collections, including jazz legend
Gerry Mulligan's collection, Civil War sheet music, and patriotic
melodies. This site is a continually-growing resource, and visitors are
encouraged to return regularly to see what's new.

Please direct all inquiries to Music Division staff by using the
division's "Ask A Librarian" Web form, available at:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ask-perform2.html.


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov  1 07:29:42 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:29:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <002601c4c00e$773f2a80$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Voting as tho 
the nation's future
depended on it
(hint: it does)

How do I decide 
what's right for me?

Letting "the Outside" 
"dictate" 	
"the poem" -
Mark Tursi on a Spicerian side of poetics

K Silem Mohammad's 
"A Language Poetry Dossier" -
Googlism vs. Google

The Motorcycle Diaries -
Che the wide-eye med student

So where Goest Cole Swensen?

Joe Safdie on names, poetry
& the redbirds of St. Louis

Our 200,000th visitor is. . . 

"They were tamed by pitchers who, 
in an era when arms are more delicate
           than orchids, 
worked like Iditarod dogs."

Writing as an activity
vs. writing as a process

How different generations handle
the plethora of new poetry

A new bookcase -
what it says about what I'm reading

The best review I've had in years
thanks to Magdalena Zurawski

A prize this week
for the blog's 200,000th visitor

Quoting out of context
as a mode of close reading

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov  1 08:08:45 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:08:45 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from PoemsHunter today
Message-ID: <015501c4c013$ebffad90$94ec3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

       
       
      I Would Live in Your Love 

      I would live in your love as the sea-grasses live in the sea, 
      Borne up by each wave as it passes, drawn down by each wave that recedes; 
      I would empty my soul of the dreams that have gathered in me, 
      I would beat with your heart as it beats, I would follow your soul 
      as it leads. 

      Sarah Teasdale 

     

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From jsafdie at comcast.net  Mon Nov  1 12:02:43 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:02:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK
References: <000a01c4bf5b$5f560aa0$0fa80252@SPARKLE100><00dd01c4bf8d$ab7a9d10$56001118@D6T95L21>
	<01f501c4bfa5$5c1007c0$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004901c4c034$9ae640b0$56001118@D6T95L21>

Just kidding, Bob . . . it's true I don't share your passion for taxonomy (nor, apparently, your political views) but have always valued your energy and determination to bring clarity to the poetry world. I just don't think there's much value in attempts to dam its various tributaries, so will continue to resist attempts to do so.

Joe

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 3:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK


  Right, Joe--if anyone is interested in classifying poets as major or minor or neither, he must want to classify everything.

  --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Nov  1 13:42:57 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:42:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK
Message-ID: <200411011723.iA1HNOgA060774@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Hi Martin---I'm glad you're on the list (we met like 14 years ago through 
Connie D.)
Chris

----------
From: "Martin Stannard" <martinstannard at ntlworld.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK
Date: Sun, Oct 31, 2004, 7:07 AM


Hello



I just wanted to say Hello, having joined the list  a day or so ago.



I?m a British poet, and you can find out about me at my Home Page ?
www.martinstannard.co.uk <http://www.martinstannard.co.uk/> .



I also run a Blog which publishes poems and reviews (so it?s
half-blog/half-zine, kind of) at www.exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com
<http://www.exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/>



I used to edit a magazine called joe soap?s canoe and have some pretty close
links with a number of American poets ? people like Paul Violi and Mark
Halliday.



I tend to watch lists rather than engage in a lot of debate ? there never
seems enough hours in the day to do as much as I?d like to. But it?s nice to
be here and to see what you are doing.





Martin Stannard




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Nov  1 13:08:00 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 12:08:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] moral cowardice
Message-ID: <s1862729.097@mail.highland.edu>

Scott Ritter, in The Guardian, on the the civilian death toll  in Iraq:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1340688,00.html


From mbyrne at risd.edu  Mon Nov  1 13:23:57 2004
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 13:23:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK
Message-ID: <s1863901.027@webacc1.risd.edu>

Hello Martin: I'm coming out of purdah for you!
Mairead

Mair*ad Byrne
Assistant Professor of English
Rhode Island School of Design
Providence, RI 02903
www.wildhoneypress.com
www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com
>>> cstroffo at earthlink.net 11/01/04 1:42 PM >>>
Hi Martin---I'm glad you're on the list (we met like 14 years ago through
Connie D.)
Chris

----------
From: "Martin Stannard" <martinstannard at ntlworld.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK
Date: Sun, Oct 31, 2004, 7:07 AM


Hello



I just wanted to say Hello, having joined the list  a day or so ago.



I?m a British poet, and you can find out about me at my Home Page ?
www.martinstannard.co.uk <http://www.martinstannard.co.uk/> .



I also run a Blog which publishes poems and reviews (so it?s
half-blog/half-zine, kind of) at www.exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com
<http://www.exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/>



I used to edit a magazine called joe soap?s canoe and have some pretty close
links with a number of American poets ? people like Paul Violi and Mark
Halliday.



I tend to watch lists rather than engage in a lot of debate ? there never
seems enough hours in the day to do as much as I?d like to. But it?s nice to
be here and to see what you are doing.





Martin Stannard




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Nov  1 15:13:28 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:13:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] moral cowardice
In-Reply-To: <s1862729.097@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s1862729.097@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <20041101151315.M26857@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Is it poetic?

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Scott Ritter, in The Guardian, on the the civilian death toll  in Iraq:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1340688,00.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov  1 15:10:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:10:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK
References: <000a01c4bf5b$5f560aa0$0fa80252@SPARKLE100><00dd01c4bf8d$ab7a9d10$56001118@D6T95L21><01f501c4bfa5$5c1007c0$43b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<004901c4c034$9ae640b0$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <002801c4c04e$e19e0c30$56b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I knew you were kidding, Joe.  Hope you're kidding about "damming tributaries," too.  Can't see how naming something dams it.

--Bob
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joe Safdie 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 12:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK


  Just kidding, Bob . . . it's true I don't share your passion for taxonomy (nor, apparently, your political views) but have always valued your energy and determination to bring clarity to the poetry world. I just don't think there's much value in attempts to dam its various tributaries, so will continue to resist attempts to do so.

  Joe

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 3:57 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hello from the UK


    Right, Joe--if anyone is interested in classifying poets as major or minor or neither, he must want to classify everything.

    --Bob G.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Nov  1 22:21:53 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:21:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Muttering thunder and lambent shoots
Message-ID: <BDAC5970.C95B%grahamd@ripon.edu>

TO THE STATES, To Identify the 16th, 17th, or 18th Presidentiad.
 
Why reclining, interrogating? why myself and all drowsing?
What deepening twilight -- scum floating atop of the waters,

Who are they as bats and night-dogs askant in the capitol?
What a filthy Presidentiad! (O South, your torrid suns! O North,  your
arctic freezings!)
Are those really Congressmen? are those the great Judges? is that the
President?
Then I will sleep awhile yet, for I see that these States sleep, for
reasons;
(With gathering murk, with muttering thunder and lambent shoots we all duly
awake,
South, North, East, West, inland and seaboard, we will surely awake.)

--Walt Whitman

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Nov  2 02:03:25 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:03:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] i n q u i s i t i o n s
Message-ID: <004e01c4c0aa$0c8fa3d0$89d63152@yourpk9x5fuc06>



i n q u i s i t i o n s  an experimental poetry journal  http://inquisitions.nemski.com

inquisition
Inquisition as the act of inquiring, an investigation, the process of inquiry.

"In 1925 Borges stated that his title aimed to dissociate "inquisition" once and for all from monks' cowls and the smoke of damnation. After an inquisitorial pursuit of his own work, the effort continues." 

-James E. Irby, Introduction to Jorge Luis Borges' Other Inquisitions,
Austin, Texas: The University of Texas Press, 1964, 1993.

submission guidelines
inquisitions is a poetry journal specializing in experimental/avant work by textual and visual poets. Poets can send in 3 to 10 poems. Essays on poetics are appreciated. Textual work accepted in most any format (txt, doc, email body, etc.). Simultaneous or previously published work is not accepted. All submissions should be addressed to inquisitions at gmail.com. Please include INQUISITIONS SUBMISSION in the subject line.

visual poetry note
Visual poetry should be submitted in jpg format. Visual poems larger than 11.5 cm by 17 cm (approx 4.5" by 6.7") will be resized for printing. The magazine will be published in black and white.

translation poetry note
Translations are encouraged though original should be included for publication. Translators should also provide proof of translator's rights. 

copyright
All rights revert back to author after publication. 

editor
David Nemeth 

editorial advisory board
Nick Piombino, Chris Murray, Geof Huth, Tom Beckett and Anny Ballardini.



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Nov  2 07:43:50 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:43:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for papers
Message-ID: <005601c4c0d9$9acd0460$1bd93052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

crossposted from H-AMSTDY at H-NET.MSU.EDU

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:16:27
From: Elna Green <egreen at mailer.fsu.edu>

The Allen Morris Conference Committee and the Florida State University
History Department announce a Call for Papers for the fourth biennial Allen
Morris Conference on the History of Florida and the Atlantic World, to be
held in Tallahassee, Florida, February 25-26, 2006.  The conference theme
is "Which Centers and Whose Peripheries?  Hybrid Societies and Overlapping
Boundaries in Florida and the Atlantic World."  Professor Jack P. Greene,
Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities at Johns Hopkins University,
will present the keynote address entitled "The Cultural Dimensions of
Political Transfers: An Aspect of the European Occupation of the Americas."

In keeping with this theme, the Program Committee invites papers that
investigate questions of cultural retention and cultural exchange during
periods of political change.  When a new political power appears, how much
of their existing culture and legal structures were the previous
inhabitants able to retain?  Were they able to maintain more under some
conditions as opposed to others?  To what extent were existing forms of law
overridden or retained?  In the process of cultural reformulation, what
sorts of cultural and political negotiations occurred?  Were some
established cultures more resilient than others?  Were some invading
cultures more permissive or more conducive to hybridization than others?

The Program Committee also seeks papers that serve to integrate Florida
into its wider Atlantic context, as Florida's geographical location has
provided myriad connections to a much larger world.  Papers might address a
wide array of subjects including race and ethnicity as elements of cultural
evolution, political ideologies in flux in times of upheaval, or 20th
Century cultural preservation movements in Florida.

The Program Committee welcomes proposals for individual papers or complete
panels. Electronic submissions are accepted.  Interested applicants should
submit a proposal of no more than 300 words for each paper and a brief
curriculum vitae for each participant. Individuals interested in serving as
a chair or commentator should forward a vita as well. All submissions must
be received no later than April 1, 2005.  Send all materials to:

Prof. Elna C. Green
Dept. of History
Florida State University
<egreen at fsu.edu>

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From dbarone at sjc.edu  Tue Nov  2 13:16:38 2004
From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:16:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
Message-ID: <954A5413620E074797298540927621C52F33E9@sjcexchange.SJC.EDU>

As corrupt and self-seeking politicians erode the Constitution and bring
us daily closer to outright fascism, the poet is turned away from his
impulse to sing, to testify in patterns of words to the miracle of life,
and is driven willy-nilly to warn, to curse, to gnash the teeth of
language..."

 

Denise Levertov, 1973

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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Nov  2 06:27:22 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:27:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <954A5413620E074797298540927621C52F33E9@sjcexchange.SJC.EDU>
Message-ID: <BDACCB3A.75EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/2/04 12:16 PM, "Barone, Dennis" <dbarone at sjc.edu> wrote:

> As corrupt and self-seeking politicians erode the Constitution and bring us
> daily closer to outright fascism, the poet is turned away from his impulse to
> sing, to testify in patterns of words to the miracle of life, and is driven
> willy-nilly to warn, to curse, to gnash the teeth of language??
> 
>  
> 
> Denise Levertov, 1973
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Wow, since 1973 the country?s been descending toward fascism.

Or has it only been descending further into bombastic rhetoric?
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Nov  2 06:35:01 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:35:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The descent beckons
Message-ID: <BDACCD05.75F0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

This is what the descent into Fascism really looks like in its early stages.
Remember what happened in the same country to the gay politician Pim
Fortuyn.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041102/D863NRS80.html

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From MillB at aol.com  Tue Nov  2 14:03:35 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:03:35 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The descent beckons
Message-ID: <149.378e4a54.2eb93407@aol.com>

Republicans Through the Eyes of A Poet and a  Hamster
(With A Suggestion for the Democrats)

Philomene  Long
Special to the Mirror

Apparently, at  least some republicans paid attention during their high 
school poetry classes  because the organizers of their convention understood the 
power of the  imagination and were using imagery as weaponry.
This election is  a war of words -- a confrontation of images.
As a poet I decided  to decipher the republicans? literary devices and I 
found their seemingly  successful formula to be surprisingly uncomplicated: say 
the opposite and repeat  it. That way a democrat war hero will become a coward, 
and a republican coward  will become a ?war president.? The invasion of a 
country will become its  liberation
The power is in the repeating: repeat it, repeat it.  It is dictatorship with 
diction. It has a similar effect of the goose  step.
Repeat it, knowing all the time that the mind has  difficulty holding two 
images simultaneously. Therefore the image of thousands  of ecstatic arms waving 
in Madison Square Garden might wave away the image of  that ten year-old Iraqi 
boy with both arms severed by our bombs, and those  smiling expensive faces 
hopefully replacing the thirteen year-old Iraqi girl?s  face which another of 
our bombs converted into something that now looks like a  burnt cauliflower. 
(Children tossed into flames before altars of the god Molloch  with the 
suggestionsthat this is the will of the god who bled to death in the  very act of 
forgiving.)
What is repeatedly left out is equally  important. That would be why images 
of 1,000 American coffins would NOT be shown  on the screen behind George W. 
Bush as he was speaking -- coffin after coffin,  including those of the Iraqi 
30,000, behind him as he bragged about his Texas  swagger. Because the delegates 
might make the connection that he is responsible  that those young bodies 
behind him will not swagger again.
All  under our American flag ? no flag with such splendor ? ever -- for what 
it  stands for ? at least what our founders intended. Old glory now draped 
over  those 1,000 coffins. And tucked inside ? 1,000 young American bodies, most 
 having believed they died for what lay on top of them, instead of having 
lost  their lives to add to Dick Chenney?s bank account.
But then  there is personification. If you think of our country as a hamster 
(for American  citizens? living conditions are fast becoming that of a rodent 
under this  administration) and most of us are going to be living like one.
And, of course, what a hamster would remember most about both the democratic  
convention was that just as John Kerry had dived into a Vietnamese river to 
save  the life of a fellow wounded soldier he, too, once dived into water to 
save a  drowning hamster, giving it mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. The hamster 
lived.  Unlike when Bush?s hamster was in trouble. He? well ? there is no 
explanation,  but that the hamster just ?didn?t make it.?
America is ?not  making it.?
Republicans voters, may I make a suggestion? In  November, as you enter the 
voting booth, ask yourself this question: ?Would I  rather be Bush?s or Kerry?
s hamster??
And for the democratic  campaign organizers, I beg you: Read more  poetry!
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Nov  2 07:30:19 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:30:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The descent beckons
In-Reply-To: <149.378e4a54.2eb93407@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BDACD9FB.75F8%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

A fine example of the poetic device called hyperbole.




On 11/2/04 1:03 PM, "MillB at aol.com" <MillB at aol.com> wrote:

> Republicans Through the Eyes of A Poet and a Hamster
> (With A Suggestion for the Democrats)
> 
> Philomene Long
> Special to the Mirror
>   
>    Apparently, at least some republicans paid attention during their high
> school poetry classes because the organizers of their convention understood
> the power of the imagination and were using imagery as weaponry.
>    This election is a war of words -- a confrontation of images.
>    As a poet I decided to decipher the republicans? literary devices and I
> found their seemingly successful formula to be surprisingly uncomplicated: say
> the opposite and repeat it. That way a democrat war hero will become a coward,
> and a republican coward will become a ?war president.? The invasion of a
> country will become its liberation
>    The power is in the repeating: repeat it, repeat it. It is dictatorship
> with diction. It has a similar effect of the goose step.
>    Repeat it, knowing all the time that the mind has difficulty holding two
> images simultaneously. Therefore the image of thousands of ecstatic arms
> waving in Madison Square Garden might wave away the image of that ten year-old
> Iraqi boy with both arms severed by our bombs, and those smiling expensive
> faces hopefully replacing the thirteen year-old Iraqi girl?s face which
> another of our bombs converted into something that now looks like a burnt
> cauliflower. (Children tossed into flames before altars of the god Molloch
> with the suggestionsthat this is the will of the god who bled to death in the
> very act of forgiving.)
>    What is repeatedly left out is equally important. That would be why images
> of 1,000 American coffins would NOT be shown on the screen behind George W.
> Bush as he was speaking -- coffin after coffin, including those of the Iraqi
> 30,000, behind him as he bragged about his Texas swagger. Because the
> delegates might make the connection that he is responsible that those young
> bodies behind him will not swagger again.
>    All under our American flag ? no flag with such splendor ? ever -- for what
> it stands for ? at least what our founders intended. Old glory now draped over
> those 1,000 coffins. And tucked inside ? 1,000 young American bodies, most
> having believed they died for what lay on top of them, instead of having lost
> their lives to add to Dick Chenney?s bank account.
>    But then there is personification. If you think of our country as a hamster
> (for American citizens? living conditions are fast becoming that of a rodent
> under this administration) and most of us are going to be living like one.
>    And, of course, what a hamster would remember most about both the
> democratic convention was that just as John Kerry had dived into a Vietnamese
> river to save the life of a fellow wounded soldier he, too, once dived into
> water to save a drowning hamster, giving it mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. The
> hamster lived. Unlike when Bush?s hamster was in trouble. He? well ? there is
> no explanation, but that the hamster just ?didn?t make it.?
>    America is ?not making it.?
>    Republicans voters, may I make a suggestion? In November, as you enter the
> voting booth, ask yourself this question: ?Would I rather be Bush?s or Kerry?s
> hamster??
>    And for the democratic campaign organizers, I beg you: Read more poetry!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


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From jsafdie at comcast.net  Tue Nov  2 18:32:09 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:32:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <BDACCB3A.75EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <004701c4c134$2cb758d0$56001118@D6T95L21>

Re: [New-Poetry] words for the dayMr. Lake:

The passage by Ms. Levertov, reproduced by Mr. Barone, was written in 1973. At that time, she perceived what she interpreted as the rise of fascism, gave some empirical reasons for that interpretation, and suggested that those conditions obligated poets to write in a certain way.

It's incorrect (and inartful) to paraphrase what she wrote with "Wow, since 1973 the country's been descending toward fascism." Some of us do in fact believe that, but that's not what Levertov wrote.

Someone who professes to care about the art of poetry should take a little more care with prose.

Joe Safdie

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day


  On 11/2/04 12:16 PM, "Barone, Dennis" <dbarone at sjc.edu> wrote:


    As corrupt and self-seeking politicians erode the Constitution and bring us daily closer to outright fascism, the poet is turned away from his impulse to sing, to testify in patterns of words to the miracle of life, and is driven willy-nilly to warn, to curse, to gnash the teeth of language."



    Denise Levertov, 1973


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  Wow, since 1973 the country's been descending toward fascism.

  Or has it only been descending further into bombastic rhetoric? 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From schloss at mail.com  Tue Nov  2 18:34:08 2004
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:34:08 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <BDACCB3A.75EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <047a01c4c134$73444290$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
As corrupt and self-seeking politicians erode the Constitution and bring us
daily closer to outright fascism, the poet is turned away from his impulse
to sing, to testify in patterns of words to the miracle of life, and is
driven willy-nilly to warn, to curse, to gnash the teeth of language."
Denise Levertov, 1973
<snip>

<snip>
Wow, since 1973 the country's been descending toward fascism.

Or has it only been descending further into bombastic rhetoric?  [Paul Lake]
<snip>

The date given for the Levertov quote isn't quite correct: it was written in
May 1972, a month before Watergate and nearly 18 months before the Agnew
scandal. With that in mind, 'corrupt and self-seeking' and 'daily' may be
thought to have some force.

As to 'descending further', if that is bombast then it has been introduced
from outside, by overreading. But is it actually bombast?  Here is Leo
Strauss (relevant to Wolfowitz amongst others) assessing the Hitler putsch,
surely the exemplary case of beginning further descent:

'Just because Germany has turned to the right and has expelled us, it simply
does not follow that the _principles of the right_ are therefore to be
rejected.  To the contrary, only on the basis of principles of the right,
_fascist, authoritarian, imperial_,  is it possible in a dignified manner,
without the ridiculous and pitiful appeal to 'the inalienable rights of man'
to protest against the mean nonentity' [Letter to Karl Lowth 1933;  the
_emphases_ are mine].

CW
_____________________________________________________

'Art does not solve problems but makes us aware of their existence'
(Magdalena Abakanowicz )




From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Nov  2 18:46:32 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:46:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <954A5413620E074797298540927621C52F33E9@sjcexchange.SJC.EDU>
References: <954A5413620E074797298540927621C52F33E9@sjcexchange.SJC.EDU>
Message-ID: <6C8E6329-2D29-11D9-BF91-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 2, 2004, at 1:16 PM, Barone, Dennis wrote:

> As corrupt and self-seeking politicians erode the Constitution and 
> bring us daily closer to outright fascism, the poet is turned away 
> from his impulse to sing, to testify in patterns of words to the 
> miracle of life, and is driven willy-nilly to warn, to curse, to gnash 
> the teeth of language??
>
> ?
>
> Denise Levertov, 1973


The Poor Voter on Election Day

  The Proudest now is but my peer
  The highest not more high.
  Today, of all the weary year,
  A king of men am I!
  Today alike are great and small,
  The nameless and the known.
  My place is the people's hall,
  The ballot box my throne.
  Who serves today upon the list
  Beside the served shall stand;
  Alike the brown and wrinkled fist,
  The gloved and dainty hand!
  The rich is level with the poor,
  The weak is strong today.
  And sleekest broadcloth counts no more
  Than homespun frock of gray.
  Today let pomp and vain pretence
  My stubborn right abide.
  I set a plain man's common sense
  Against the pedant's pride.
  Today shall simple manhood try
  The strength of gold and land;
  The wide world has not wealth to buy
  The power in my right hand.
  While there's a grief to seek redress
  Or balance to adjust,
  Where weighs our living manhood less
  Than Mammon's vilest dust -
  While there's a right to need my vote
  A wrong to sweep away,
  Up! Clouted knee and ragged coat -
  A man's a man today!



John Greenleaf Whittier, 1852

Read on NPR toiday, and quoted quite a bit on various political blogs. 



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  2 21:30:03 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:30:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
Message-ID: <20041103023003.71235.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com>

Bob,

Could you recommend a poet or website or two to
someone interested in reading a bit of visual poetry? 
I'd like to use it in class next semester, possibly to
teach visual arguments.

I'm looking for something that's at least a little
accessible.

You can backchannel me if you like.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From tad at opus40.org  Tue Nov  2 21:37:31 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:37:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
References: <20041103023003.71235.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009f01c4c14e$13685130$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Jeff - Bob's own website is great for this. I've used it in the past, and 
it's a wonderful teaching tool.

Tad

p.s. My students always think I'm crazy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
To: "Poetry News and Reviews" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 9:30 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry


> Bob,
>
> Could you recommend a poet or website or two to
> someone interested in reading a bit of visual poetry?
> I'd like to use it in class next semester, possibly to
> teach visual arguments.
>
> I'm looking for something that's at least a little
> accessible.
>
> You can backchannel me if you like.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Jeff
>
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From mbyrne at risd.edu  Tue Nov  2 21:43:20 2004
From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:43:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
Message-ID: <s187ff8e.034@webacc1.risd.edu>

Kenneth Goldsmith's www.ubu.com is also fantastic.
I'd love to see this discussion frontchannel rather than backchannel.  
Mairead

Mair?ad Byrne
Assistant Professor of English
Rhode Island School of Design
Providence, RI 02903
www.wildhoneypress.com
www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com
>>> jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com 11/02/04 21:31 PM >>>
Bob,

Could you recommend a poet or website or two to
someone interested in reading a bit of visual poetry? 
I'd like to use it in class next semester, possibly to
teach visual arguments.

I'm looking for something that's at least a little
accessible.

You can backchannel me if you like.

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov  2 22:35:08 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:35:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
References: <s187ff8e.034@webacc1.risd.edu>
Message-ID: <002901c4c156$1e336750$40b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Kenneth Goldsmith's www.ubu.com is also fantastic.
> I'd love to see this discussion frontchannel rather than backchannel.
> Mairead

Ha, anyone think I'd hide my thoughts on THIS backchannel!?

Thanks for the query, Jeff, and the plug, Tad.  Tad, I'm pretty sure, is 
referring to my piece on minimalist poetry, which covers several visual 
poems, most of which I think pretty accessible.  It's at Karl Young's light 
& dust site, which has a lot of visual poetry.  As does UBU.

My essay is at:
http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm

Lots of visual poetry but, like UBU, a huge site:
http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm

A selection of my own visual poems:
http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Gallery.html
These aren't very accessible as poems but some are, I hope, accessible 
visually.

A collection of visual poems including a very purty one by me (with a hidden 
word in it):
http://www.spidertangle.net/the_book/
Again, these are mostly full-scale, so not easy for someone not familiar 
with visual poetry to click with--quickly.

There are many more.  The above are the ones I'm most familiar with because 
I'm involved in one way or another with them.

One of these days I hope to get together a small anthology of visual poems 
that seem strong to me, but should also appeal to ordinary poetry readers. 
I've made small collections of such poems on paper but not gotten them 
together as either a book or Internet collection.  If I ever get around to 
this, I'll announce it here, for sure. 




From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  3 09:11:23 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 06:11:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
In-Reply-To: <002901c4c156$1e336750$40b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20041103141123.15550.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/lgrum1-7.gif

Bob,

I was wondering if you could talk about this
particular poem, "Mathemaku No. 10."  Correct me if I
am wrong, but here is how I would read it:

Dividing existence by poetry provides only a hint of
real emotion not colored by language, hence the heart
as the character on top of long divison problem. 
However, the balance is "somewhere, minutely, a
widening" what?  I see the remainder at the bottom,
"existence."  So what the poem seems to suggest or
argue is that while poetry can provide some small
understanding of existence, the very nature of
language and symbol keeps poetry from actually
capturing *all* of existence.  Thus, in the end,
you're left with what you started with:  only
existence.  This Mathemaku seems to argue that poetry
alone isn't enough to capture existence--I think. 
Maybe the poem points to the ephemeral nature of
poetry and thus its inherent weakness?

I'm not sure why the divided word "existence" is in
italics, but I'm sure that this isn't an oversight on
the poet's part.

Thanks for the links.  I'm looking forward to hearing
what you have to say about this.

Jeff Newberry

--- Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> > Kenneth Goldsmith's www.ubu.com is also fantastic.
> > I'd love to see this discussion frontchannel
> rather than backchannel.
> > Mairead
> 
> Ha, anyone think I'd hide my thoughts on THIS
> backchannel!?
> 
> Thanks for the query, Jeff, and the plug, Tad.  Tad,
> I'm pretty sure, is 
> referring to my piece on minimalist poetry, which
> covers several visual 
> poems, most of which I think pretty accessible. 
> It's at Karl Young's light 
> & dust site, which has a lot of visual poetry.  As
> does UBU.
> 
> My essay is at:
> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm
> 
> Lots of visual poetry but, like UBU, a huge site:
> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm
> 
> A selection of my own visual poems:
>
http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Gallery.html
> These aren't very accessible as poems but some are,
> I hope, accessible 
> visually.
> 
> A collection of visual poems including a very purty
> one by me (with a hidden 
> word in it):
> http://www.spidertangle.net/the_book/
> Again, these are mostly full-scale, so not easy for
> someone not familiar 
> with visual poetry to click with--quickly.
> 
> There are many more.  The above are the ones I'm
> most familiar with because 
> I'm involved in one way or another with them.
> 
> One of these days I hope to get together a small
> anthology of visual poems 
> that seem strong to me, but should also appeal to
> ordinary poetry readers. 
> I've made small collections of such poems on paper
> but not gotten them 
> together as either a book or Internet collection. 
> If I ever get around to 
> this, I'll announce it here, for sure. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Nov  3 09:13:12 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:13:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Has everything happened?
Message-ID: <BDAE4398.C9DC%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Oceans


     I have a feeling that my boat
has struck, down there in the depths,
against a great thing.
            And nothing
happens!  Nothing. . .  Silence. . .  Waves. . .

--Nothing happens?  Or has everything happened,
and are we standing now, quietly, in the new life?

--Juan Ram?n Jim?nez, trans. Rbt. Bly


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Nov  3 09:23:52 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:23:52 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
References: <20041103141123.15550.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c4c1b0$bec71720$b1d73152@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Can I try my 5 sec interpretation?

poetry when related to existence
the symbol of the heart indicates that the emotion is positive
_somewhere, minutely, a widening_ (casual, in a minimum part, with an opening effect) poetry is
as (opposed to, complimentary with, - existence,

poetry as the surrogate and the amplifier of existence.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry


> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/lgrum1-7.gif
> 
> Bob,
> 
> I was wondering if you could talk about this
> particular poem, "Mathemaku No. 10."  Correct me if I
> am wrong, but here is how I would read it:
> 
> Dividing existence by poetry provides only a hint of
> real emotion not colored by language, hence the heart
> as the character on top of long divison problem. 
> However, the balance is "somewhere, minutely, a
> widening" what?  I see the remainder at the bottom,
> "existence."  So what the poem seems to suggest or
> argue is that while poetry can provide some small
> understanding of existence, the very nature of
> language and symbol keeps poetry from actually
> capturing *all* of existence.  Thus, in the end,
> you're left with what you started with:  only
> existence.  This Mathemaku seems to argue that poetry
> alone isn't enough to capture existence--I think. 
> Maybe the poem points to the ephemeral nature of
> poetry and thus its inherent weakness?
> 
> I'm not sure why the divided word "existence" is in
> italics, but I'm sure that this isn't an oversight on
> the poet's part.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I'm looking forward to hearing
> what you have to say about this.
> 
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> --- Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > > Kenneth Goldsmith's www.ubu.com is also fantastic.
> > > I'd love to see this discussion frontchannel
> > rather than backchannel.
> > > Mairead
> > 
> > Ha, anyone think I'd hide my thoughts on THIS
> > backchannel!?
> > 
> > Thanks for the query, Jeff, and the plug, Tad.  Tad,
> > I'm pretty sure, is 
> > referring to my piece on minimalist poetry, which
> > covers several visual 
> > poems, most of which I think pretty accessible. 
> > It's at Karl Young's light 
> > & dust site, which has a lot of visual poetry.  As
> > does UBU.
> > 
> > My essay is at:
> > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm
> > 
> > Lots of visual poetry but, like UBU, a huge site:
> > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm
> > 
> > A selection of my own visual poems:
> >
> http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Gallery.html
> > These aren't very accessible as poems but some are,
> > I hope, accessible 
> > visually.
> > 
> > A collection of visual poems including a very purty
> > one by me (with a hidden 
> > word in it):
> > http://www.spidertangle.net/the_book/
> > Again, these are mostly full-scale, so not easy for
> > someone not familiar 
> > with visual poetry to click with--quickly.
> > 
> > There are many more.  The above are the ones I'm
> > most familiar with because 
> > I'm involved in one way or another with them.
> > 
> > One of these days I hope to get together a small
> > anthology of visual poems 
> > that seem strong to me, but should also appeal to
> > ordinary poetry readers. 
> > I've made small collections of such poems on paper
> > but not gotten them 
> > together as either a book or Internet collection. 
> > If I ever get around to 
> > this, I'll announce it here, for sure. 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>  
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
> www.yahoo.com 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Nov  3 09:30:54 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:30:54 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
References: <20041103141123.15550.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com>
	<00b301c4c1b0$bec71720$b1d73152@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00d101c4c1b1$bab80210$b1d73152@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Rereading,

I don't like that "casual", somewhere is just perfect. In some place it exists.


  Can I try my 5 sec interpretation?

  poetry when related to existence
  the symbol of the heart indicates that the emotion is positive
  _somewhere, minutely, a widening_ (casual, in a minimum part, with an opening effect) poetry is
  as (opposed to, complimentary with, - existence,

  poetry as the surrogate and the amplifier of existence.

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
  Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
  To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 3:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry


  > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/lgrum1-7.gif
  > 
  > Bob,
  > 
  > I was wondering if you could talk about this
  > particular poem, "Mathemaku No. 10."  Correct me if I
  > am wrong, but here is how I would read it:
  > 
  > Dividing existence by poetry provides only a hint of
  > real emotion not colored by language, hence the heart
  > as the character on top of long divison problem. 
  > However, the balance is "somewhere, minutely, a
  > widening" what?  I see the remainder at the bottom,
  > "existence."  So what the poem seems to suggest or
  > argue is that while poetry can provide some small
  > understanding of existence, the very nature of
  > language and symbol keeps poetry from actually
  > capturing *all* of existence.  Thus, in the end,
  > you're left with what you started with:  only
  > existence.  This Mathemaku seems to argue that poetry
  > alone isn't enough to capture existence--I think. 
  > Maybe the poem points to the ephemeral nature of
  > poetry and thus its inherent weakness?
  > 
  > I'm not sure why the divided word "existence" is in
  > italics, but I'm sure that this isn't an oversight on
  > the poet's part.
  > 
  > Thanks for the links.  I'm looking forward to hearing
  > what you have to say about this.
  > 
  > Jeff Newberry
  > 
  > --- Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
  > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > > Kenneth Goldsmith's www.ubu.com is also fantastic.
  > > > I'd love to see this discussion frontchannel
  > > rather than backchannel.
  > > > Mairead
  > > 
  > > Ha, anyone think I'd hide my thoughts on THIS
  > > backchannel!?
  > > 
  > > Thanks for the query, Jeff, and the plug, Tad.  Tad,
  > > I'm pretty sure, is 
  > > referring to my piece on minimalist poetry, which
  > > covers several visual 
  > > poems, most of which I think pretty accessible. 
  > > It's at Karl Young's light 
  > > & dust site, which has a lot of visual poetry.  As
  > > does UBU.
  > > 
  > > My essay is at:
  > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm
  > > 
  > > Lots of visual poetry but, like UBU, a huge site:
  > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm
  > > 
  > > A selection of my own visual poems:
  > >
  > http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Gallery.html
  > > These aren't very accessible as poems but some are,
  > > I hope, accessible 
  > > visually.
  > > 
  > > A collection of visual poems including a very purty
  > > one by me (with a hidden 
  > > word in it):
  > > http://www.spidertangle.net/the_book/
  > > Again, these are mostly full-scale, so not easy for
  > > someone not familiar 
  > > with visual poetry to click with--quickly.
  > > 
  > > There are many more.  The above are the ones I'm
  > > most familiar with because 
  > > I'm involved in one way or another with them.
  > > 
  > > One of these days I hope to get together a small
  > > anthology of visual poems 
  > > that seem strong to me, but should also appeal to
  > > ordinary poetry readers. 
  > > I've made small collections of such poems on paper
  > > but not gotten them 
  > > together as either a book or Internet collection. 
  > > If I ever get around to 
  > > this, I'll announce it here, for sure. 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > _______________________________________________
  > > New-Poetry mailing list
  > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
  > > 
  > 
  > 
  > =====
  > Jeff Newberry
  >  
  > "Sometimes it's not so easy,
  > especially when your only friend
  > talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
  > and you do just the same as him."
  > --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > __________________________________ 
  > Do you Yahoo!? 
  > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
  > www.yahoo.com 
  >  
  > 
  > _______________________________________________
  > New-Poetry mailing list
  > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
  > 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Nov  3 09:38:44 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:38:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Has everything happened?
References: <BDAE4398.C9DC%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <003001c4c1b2$d36fb770$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

David - chilling and apt. I don't know Jimenez. I'm very moved by this.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:13 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Has everything happened?


Oceans


     I have a feeling that my boat
has struck, down there in the depths,
against a great thing.
            And nothing
happens!  Nothing. . .  Silence. . .  Waves. . .

--Nothing happens?  Or has everything happened,
and are we standing now, quietly, in the new life?

--Juan Ram?n Jim?nez, trans. Rbt. Bly


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Wed Nov  3 09:51:42 2004
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 04 09:51:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poor Voter
Message-ID: <200411031451.iA3EpjLF011798@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>

>>The Poor Voter on Election Day
>>
>>  The Proudest now is but my peer
>>  The highest not more high.
>>  Today, of all the weary year,
>>  A king of men am I!
>>  Today alike are great and small,
>>  The nameless and the known.
>>  My place is the people's hall,
>>  The ballot box my throne.
>>  Who serves today upon the list
>>  Beside the served shall stand;
>>  Alike the brown and wrinkled fist,
>>  The gloved and dainty hand!
>>  The rich is level with the poor,
>>  The weak is strong today.
>>  And sleekest broadcloth counts no more
>>  Than homespun frock of gray.
>>  Today let pomp and vain pretence
>>  My stubborn right abide.
>>  I set a plain man's common sense
>>  Against the pedant's pride.
>>  Today shall simple manhood try
>>  The strength of gold and land;
>>  The wide world has not wealth to buy
>>  The power in my right hand.
>>  While there's a grief to seek redress
>>  Or balance to adjust,
>>  Where weighs our living manhood less
>>  Than Mammon's vilest dust -
>>  While there's a right to need my vote
>>  A wrong to sweep away,
>>  Up! Clouted knee and ragged coat -
>>  A man's a man today!
>>
>>
>>
>>John Greenleaf Whittier, 1852
>>

This is all very democratic but it sorta' stinks of asserting
"self esteem" rather than earning it.  It's great that the
common man feels powerful casting his vote, but shouldn't he
know something about what he's doing?

Is there any excuse for 72% of the people _still_ believing
that Saddam had WMDs?

But don't mind me - I'm just bummin' right now.

Richard


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Nov  3 10:13:15 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:13:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Festival
Message-ID: <1c2.203e4a3a.2eba4f8b@cs.com>

The cybercasts of poetry (and other) readings at the National Book Festival 
can now be viewed at

http://www.loc.gov/bookfest/04/cybercasts/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov  3 10:17:15 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:17:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Visual Poetry
References: <20041103141123.15550.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00c901c4c1b8$46d20a10$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Let me jump to the bottom of your perceptive BUT WRONG take, Jeff.  (Note, when I come back to many of my mathemaku, it often takes me quite a while to figure them out, and some I've never figured out, so don't feel embarrassed at interpretting this differently from me.)

> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/lgrum1-7.gif
> 
> Bob,
> 
> I was wondering if you could talk about this
> particular poem, "Mathemaku No. 10."  Correct me if I
> am wrong, but here is how I would read it:
> 
> Dividing existence by poetry provides only a hint of
> real emotion not colored by language, hence the heart
> as the character on top of long divison problem. 
> However, the balance is "somewhere, minutely, a
> widening" what?  I see the remainder at the bottom,
> "existence."  So what the poem seems to suggest or
> argue is that while poetry can provide some small
> understanding of existence, the very nature of
> language and symbol keeps poetry from actually
> capturing *all* of existence.  Thus, in the end,
> you're left with what you started with:  only
> existence.  This Mathemaku seems to argue that poetry
> alone isn't enough to capture existence--I think. 
> Maybe the poem points to the ephemeral nature of
> poetry and thus its inherent weakness?
> 
> I'm not sure why the divided word "existence" is in
> italics, but I'm sure that this isn't an oversight on
> the poet's part.
> 
> Thanks for the links.  I'm looking forward to hearing
> what you have to say about this.
> 
> Jeff Newberry

The italics are the key.  poetry is being divided into italicized existence.  Multiplying poetry by a heart, or emotion/intuition/energy, life/love, gets you something close to equal to italicized existence--"somewhere, a minute widening."  "Widening" is here a noun.  The smallest of openings but enough for poetry to amplify existence as Anny, who seems to have gotten what I was trying for, has it.  The remainder is a kind of polemical joke.  It is unitalicized existence, or ordinary existence.  It has to be added to the widening to make the widening equal to italicized existence.  So I'm saying ordinary existence, existence without poetry, is a mere remainder.

I hope this makes sense.

I'm off to work now, so won't say more for a while.

--Bob
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov  3 04:47:01 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 03:47:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <004701c4c134$2cb758d0$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <BDAE0535.7617%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I was responding to a post that also suggested the country was descending
into Fascism and someone posted the Levertov quote in that context,
suggesting a continuity of thought over 30  years. Last night?s election and
John Jerry?s recent concession suggests that the democratic process is still
working in this country. In four years we can vote again to try to change
the composition of the government. Unlike in Cuba and North Korea, opponents
to the current administration aren?t in jail. Sometimes it helps to keep
things in perspective and restrain the overblown rhetoric.

Paul Lake


On 11/2/04 5:32 PM, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote:

> Mr. Lake:
>  
> The passage by Ms. Levertov, reproduced by Mr. Barone, was written in 1973. At
> that time, she perceived what she interpreted as the rise of fascism, gave
> some empirical reasons for that interpretation, and suggested that those
> conditions obligated poets to write in a certain way.
>  
> It's incorrect (and inartful) to paraphrase what she wrote with "Wow, since
> 1973 the country's been descending toward fascism." Some of us do in fact
> believe that, but that's not what Levertov wrote.
>  
> Someone who professes to care about the art of poetry should take a little
> more care with prose.
>  
> Joe Safdie
>  
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Lake <mailto:paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
>> <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day
>> 
>> On 11/2/04 12:16 PM, "Barone, Dennis" <dbarone at sjc.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> As corrupt and self-seeking politicians erode the Constitution and bring us
>>> daily closer to outright fascism, the poet is turned away from his impulse
>>> to sing, to testify in patterns of words to the miracle of life, and is
>>> driven willy-nilly to warn, to curse, to gnash the teeth of language
?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Denise Levertov, 1973
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>> 
>> Wow, since 1973 the country?s been descending toward fascism.
>> 
>> Or has it only been descending further into bombastic rhetoric?
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Nov  3 12:05:54 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:05:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poor Voter
In-Reply-To: <200411031451.iA3EpjLF011798@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
References: <200411031451.iA3EpjLF011798@d01av01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <16499601.1099501554322.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, November 03, 2004, at 09:53AM, <DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com> wrote:

>>>The Poor Voter on Election Day
>>>
>>>  The Proudest now is but my peer
>>>  The highest not more high.
>>>  Today, of all the weary year,
>>>  A king of men am I!
>>>  Today alike are great and small,
>>>  The nameless and the known.
>>>  My place is the people's hall,
>>>  The ballot box my throne.
>>>  Who serves today upon the list
>>>  Beside the served shall stand;
>>>  Alike the brown and wrinkled fist,
>>>  The gloved and dainty hand!
>>>  The rich is level with the poor,
>>>  The weak is strong today.
>>>  And sleekest broadcloth counts no more
>>>  Than homespun frock of gray.
>>>  Today let pomp and vain pretence
>>>  My stubborn right abide.
>>>  I set a plain man's common sense
>>>  Against the pedant's pride.
>>>  Today shall simple manhood try
>>>  The strength of gold and land;
>>>  The wide world has not wealth to buy
>>>  The power in my right hand.
>>>  While there's a grief to seek redress
>>>  Or balance to adjust,
>>>  Where weighs our living manhood less
>>>  Than Mammon's vilest dust -
>>>  While there's a right to need my vote
>>>  A wrong to sweep away,
>>>  Up! Clouted knee and ragged coat -
>>>  A man's a man today!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>John Greenleaf Whittier, 1852
>>>
>
>This is all very democratic but it sorta' stinks of asserting
>"self esteem" rather than earning it.  It's great that the
>common man feels powerful casting his vote, but shouldn't he
>know something about what he's doing?
>
>Is there any excuse for 72% of the people _still_ believing
>that Saddam had WMDs?
>
>But don't mind me - I'm just bummin' right now.
>
>Richard

So am I. Know about any jobs in New Zealand?
-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From jsafdie at comcast.net  Wed Nov  3 12:14:44 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:14:44 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <BDAE0535.7617%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00c601c4c1c8$9d23de10$56001118@D6T95L21>

Re: [New-Poetry] words for the daySometimes it helps to keep things in perspective and restrain the overblown rhetoric.

Paul Lake


On 11/3/04 9:11 AM Pacific Time, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote, in response:

e'van.gel'i.cal 1. Contained in, or relating to, the four Gospels. 2. Belonging to, contained in, agreeable to, or in the spirit of, the gospel, or teachings of the New Testament. 3. Pertaining to or designating any school of Protestants which holds that the essence of the gospel consists mainly in its doctrines of man's sinful condition and need of salvation, the revelation of God's grace in Christ, the necessity of spiritual renovation, and participation in the experience of redemption through faith.

 

Moral values and concerns were what was most on the minds of voters. Not Iraq . . . not terrorism . . . not their own economic conditions . . . not their own health care or the health of the environment around them . . . but moral values and concerns.

 

In other words, a majority of Americans, having wrapped themselves tightly in the cocoons of their own bodies, have decided that anyone who hasn't so wrapped him or herself is a sinner. Or worse, an elitist. In need of spiritual salvation.

 

"Christianity arose as a slave-class movement," wrote Diane Ackerman in A Natural History of the Senses, "emphasizing self-denial, restraint, the poor inheriting the earth, a rich and free life after death, and the ultimate punishment of the luxury-loving rich in the eternal tortures of hell. . . . it was from this class-consciousness and a pride in poverty and simplicity that the hatred of the body was born. . . . All agreeable sensations were damned. . . . Pleasure was synonomous with Hell."

 

Tonight on PBS: "Regency House Country" Older chaperones welcome the 270 million 21st-century men and women spending four years in a British stately home in hopes of finding romance, social justice and liberty under the restrictive rules of early 19th-century England. "Suddenly, they're taken back to this time where they didn't have any money, and they didn't have any power, and they had to do as they were told."

 


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From elemenope at icubed.com  Tue Nov  2 23:45:31 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:45:31 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Praying Poker-Playing Texan Vamooses The Braying
 Brahmin of Beacon Hill, BeanTown!
In-Reply-To: <200411031515.iA3FFZAm013952@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200411031515.iA3FFZAm013952@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a0510030dbdae0fd8a815@[204.215.201.38]>


ELEPHANT TRUMPET HEARTY HAR HAR!



Ha! Ha! HaHa! HaHaHaHa! HaHaHaHaHee! HaHaHaHaHaHeeHee! HaHAhaHAHaHO! HaHO!HO!
HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE! HoHEEhaw. HoHEEhawHAW! HAW! HAW! HAA! HO! HAW! HEE! HRAK! HRK!
heekee heekee heehee hee hee hee Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHEEK!hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah 
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

                                                 HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE!HoHEEhaw.

HoHEEhawHAW! 
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah 
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

haAHaHA - 
HaaaaaaaaaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Ha! Ha! HaHa! HaHaHaHa! HaHaHaHaHee! HaHaHaHaHaHeeHee! HaHAhaHAHaHO! HaHO!HO!
HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE! HoHEEhaw. HoHEEhawHAW! HAW! HAW! HAA! HO! HAW! HEE! HRAK! HRK!
heekee heekee heehee hee hee hee Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK

haAHaHA - 
HaaaaaaaaaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!



R i c h a r d  D i l l o n


-- 



-- 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Nov  3 12:56:08 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:56:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Praying Poker-Playing Texan Vamooses The Braying
	Brahmin of Beacon Hill, BeanTown!
In-Reply-To: <a0510030dbdae0fd8a815@[204.215.201.38]>
References: <200411031515.iA3FFZAm013952@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <4188D568.12425.167172@localhost>

On 3 Nov 2004 at 12:45, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>                   ELEPHANT TRUMPET HEARTY HAR HAR!
> Ha! Ha! HaHa! HaHaHaHa! HaHaHaHaHee! HaHaHaHaHaHeeHee! HaHAhaHAHaHO!
> HaHO!HO!HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE! HoHEEhaw. HoHEEhawHAW! HAW! HAW! HAA! HO!
> HAW! HEE! HRAK! HRK! heekee heekee heehee hee hee hee
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHEEK!hahahahahahahahahah
> ahahahahahahahahahah Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE!HoHEEhaw.
> HoHEEhawHAW! 
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah 
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> haAHaHA - 
> HaaaaaaaaaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
> Ha! Ha! HaHa! HaHaHaHa! HaHaHaHaHee! HaHaHaHaHaHeeHee! HaHAhaHAHaHO!
> HaHO!HO!HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE! HoHEEhaw. HoHEEhawHAW! HAW! HAW! HAA! HO!
> HAW! HEE! HRAK! HRK! heekee heekee heehee hee hee hee
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> HREEEK HREEEK HREEEK HREEEK HREEEKHREEEK HREEEK HREEEK 
> HREEEK HREEEK
> haAHaHA - 
> HaaaaaaaaaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Just as charming and refined as ever, I see.

Marcus






From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov  3 05:58:03 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 04:58:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <00c601c4c1c8$9d23de10$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <BDAE15DB.761F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/3/04 11:14 AM, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote:

> Moral values and concerns were what was most on the minds of voters.

In a democracy the ?concerns . . . on the minds of the voters? determine who
gets elected.  
The alternative is rule by an elite.  Maybe next time a new set of moral
concerns will prevail. You don?t want to abolish voting, do you?

Paul Lake
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Nov  3 13:02:07 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:02:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <00c601c4c1c8$9d23de10$56001118@D6T95L21>
References: <BDAE0535.7617%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<00c601c4c1c8$9d23de10$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <4621557.1099504927139.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Sometimes it helps to keep things in perspective and restrain the overblown rhetoric.

Paul Lake


On 11/3/04 9:11 AM Pacific Time, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote, in response:
 
<SNIP>
Moral values and concerns were what was most on the minds of voters. Not Iraq . . . not terrorism . . . not their own economic conditions . . . not their own health care or the health of the environment around them . . . but moral values and concerns.

 

In other words, a majority of Americans, having wrapped themselves tightly in the cocoons of their own bodies, have decided that anyone who hasn?t so wrapped him or herself is a sinner. Or worse, an elitist. In need of spiritual salvation.

 
Joe -- I agree with some of this -- and in fact it seems to me that bigotry against gay folk is the only thing "moral values" could have meant in this electop, so Rove-Bush won by convincing people it was right to fear and hate me and my daughter (both bi). 

But that's a long way from fascism. Do you know Godwin's Law? http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

from that FAQ:

The Law is generally used on Usenet as an indicator of whether a 
thread has gone on too long, who's playing fair and who's just slinging 
mud, and who finally gets to "win" the discussion.  It has, over time, 
become the closest thing to an impartial moderator that Usenet can get.

	So, what this means in practical terms:

	o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it
	  wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an
	  insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
	o If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it 
	  was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult, 
	  the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
	o If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been
	  going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as 
	  a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the
	  other side.


?Christianity arose as a slave-class movement,? wrote Diane Ackerman in A Natural History of the Senses, ?emphasizing self-denial, restraint, the poor inheriting the earth, a rich and free life after death, and the ultimate punishment of the luxury-loving rich in the eternal tortures of hell. . . . it was from this class-consciousness and a pride in poverty and simplicity that the hatred of the body was born. . . . All agreeable sensations were damned. . . . Pleasure was synonomous with Hell.?

----whether true or not, it's irelevant


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From schloss at mail.com  Wed Nov  3 13:07:33 2004
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:07:33 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <BDAE0535.7617%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <034f01c4c1cf$fde375b0$0300a8c0@Schloss>

<snip>
Unlike in Cuba and North Korea, opponents to the current administration
aren't in jail. [Paul Lake]
<snip>

That depends on how you define 'opponents'.

The US currently has the highest per capita prison population (0.7%)
in the world, 0.7%, or about 22% of the known world prison population. After
relative stability over the 50 years up to the early 70s, the US prison
population has subsequently grown by about 600%.

There are, of course, various (and complex) factors involved. However, since
sentencing policies are said to account for c 80% of that increase, it
clearly does have a great deal to do with changes in social tolerance. And
felony convictions do affect voting: in seven US states you are
disenfranchised for life.

As to Cuba, few 'ridiculous and pitiful appeals' to human rights are
possible from within Guantanamo Bay.

CW

_____________________________________________________

'Art does not solve problems but makes us aware of their existence'
(Magdalena Abakanowicz )




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  3 13:20:10 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:20:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Halvard Johnson, "Assembly"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOLJCAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Assembly

Please feel free to ask if she crosses
the room to the window, and always
write the number of your account

on your checks. Here on the nuclear
black, we breed sphinx paws
and speed. Standing majestically

before me is the whiskey man.
There?s an eighteen-month waiting
list for space. Please help us.

We moved here to this town without
bringing our agent?so genial,
so wise, so true. A strong hand, truly.

Down there in the gloomy room
you?re high. Wouldn?t you rather be up
here in the attic with us, where

women hunch in secret sessions,
victims of jealousy, not speaking or
laughing? Arriving here, we noticed

the pine trees on the way, all clumped
together, your new electric fence
preventing their departure.

--Halvard Johnson


===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From martinstannard at ntlworld.com  Wed Nov  3 13:25:24 2004
From: martinstannard at ntlworld.com (Martin Stannard)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:25:24 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thank You
Message-ID: <006401c4c1d2$7c221d80$0fa80252@SPARKLE100>

Thank you for your welcomes. Mairead, hi! (That's not Purdah, Ohio, is it? I went there once.) And to get a Hello from someone I met 14 years ago! Hello Chris! Of course, I don't remember much about 14 years ago, so forgive me. Whatever happened to Connie D? I kind of know what happened to Lydia T. 

But anyway, as your election results have just come in and I'm sat here in England (your mum) .... well, I think I should leave you alone for a few moments, at least.

Best wishes
Martin


Martin Stannard

Home Page: www.martinstannard.co.uk
Blog (here will be found musings, poems by various great poets, and occasional reviews. It's a blog-thing....) http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/

"Some days are blighted, some are blessed."
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov  3 06:50:59 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:50:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <034f01c4c1cf$fde375b0$0300a8c0@Schloss>
Message-ID: <BDAE2243.7628%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/3/04 12:07 PM, "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com> wrote:

> As to Cuba, few 'ridiculous and pitiful appeals' to human rights are
> possible from within Guantanamo Bay.

Can't disagree with much of what you say.  We need to revisit the drug laws
so the number of people imprisoned for drugs goes down. As to Guantanamo,
our courts have already provided legal remedies and court hearings for
many--some of whom have already been freed to return to the battlefields of
the Middle East where they are once again trying to wage jihad and kill
Americans.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From shkodrov at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  3 14:24:25 2004
From: shkodrov at yahoo.com (Rossitza Shkodrova)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:24:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <BDAE15DB.761F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <20041103192425.203.qmail@web54603.mail.yahoo.com>


I would like to see a different perspective than mine,
so I won't engage in an "overblown rhetoric," but
let's make clear what fascism is before we start all
the measuring around...

Here are a few excerpts from the *Internet Modern
History Sourcebook* found at: 
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

"Fascism, the more it considers and observes the
future and the development of humanity quite apart
from political considerations of the moment, believes
neither in the possibility nor the utility of
perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of
Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and
an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War
alone brings up to its highest tension all human
energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples
who have courage to meet it. All other trials are
substitutes, which never really put men into the
position where they have to make the great decision --
the alternative of life or death.... 

...

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves
a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the
latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful
freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding
power in this question cannot be the individual, but
the State alone..."


As a pacifist at heart, I simply feel as my obligation
"to warn, to curse, to gnash the teeth of language..."
for what it might worth in days like today... 

So, let?s keep things in perspective and not fell down
into remarks like:

"In a democracy the 'concerns . . . on the minds of
the voters' determine who gets elected.  The
alternative is rule by an elite.  Maybe next time a
new set of moral concerns will prevail. You don't want
to abolish voting, do you?"

There are *other* alternatives than "ruled by
concerns," which not necessarily lead to "abolishing
voting." One that I would propose right away is making
informed decisions... based on mutual acceptance and
genuine love rather than ignorant judgments and "moral
values." For this one to happen though, we might need
better sources of information and education. The
propaganda opposed to argument was also discovered by
fascists, btw.


Best,
Rosie

--- Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

> On 11/3/04 11:14 AM, "Joe Safdie"
> <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Moral values and concerns were what was most on
> the minds of voters.
> 
> In a democracy the ?concerns . . . on the minds of
> the voters? determine who
> gets elected.  
> The alternative is rule by an elite.  Maybe next
> time a new set of moral
> concerns will prevail. You don?t want to abolish
> voting, do you?
> 
> Paul Lake
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From d.kellogg at neu.edu  Wed Nov  3 14:24:13 2004
From: d.kellogg at neu.edu (d.kellogg at neu.edu)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:24:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8
Message-ID: <OF11C7BF2C.7A2B4B43-ON85256F41.006967A7-85256F41.006A96F3@neu.edu>

Actually Paul, we don't have to wait four years to change the composition 
of the government: 

- We can insist that Bush's radical right-wing judicial appointments be 
rejected
- We can insist on the rejection of every right-wing ideologue he 
nominates for an appointed position (given the likely departure of Colin 
Powell, I assume that means everybody he nominates) 
- We can seek Bush's impeachment for any number of causes 
- We can elect progressives to Congress in two years, not four

That's for starters. 

I for one am not going to sit around for four fucking years.  And I am 
certainly not going to rally round this president and hope he does well. I 
hope he does really poorly.  I pray all the chickens come home to roost 
and shit on his smirking face. 

Moving past phase one (denial) and firmly in phase 2 (anger),
David 

David Kellogg
Director, Advanced Writing in the Disciplines
Department of English
465 Holmes Hall
Northeastern University
Boston, MA 02115
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From maxpaul at sfsu.edu  Wed Nov  3 14:35:47 2004
From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (MAXINE CHERNOFF)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:35:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Praying Poker-Playing Texan Vamooses The Braying
	Brahmin of Beacon Hill, BeanTown!
In-Reply-To: <a0510030dbdae0fd8a815@[204.215.201.38]>
References: <200411031515.iA3FFZAm013952@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a0510030dbdae0fd8a815@[204.215.201.38]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0411031134350.16329-100000@apollo.sfsu.edu>

This is all very funny until we kill hundreds of more innocent Iraquis and
our own children, already volunterring to be killed, also begin to get
drafted for the privilege.  I guess your good humor over it precludes you
from any of this human pain.  Maxine Chernoff

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

>
> ELEPHANT TRUMPET HEARTY HAR HAR!
>
>
>
> Ha! Ha! HaHa! HaHaHaHa! HaHaHaHaHee! HaHaHaHaHaHeeHee! HaHAhaHAHaHO! HaHO!HO!
> HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE! HoHEEhaw. HoHEEhawHAW! HAW! HAW! HAA! HO! HAW! HEE! HRAK! HRK!
> heekee heekee heehee hee hee hee Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHEEK!hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
>
>                                                  HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE!HoHEEhaw.
>
> HoHEEhawHAW!
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
>
> haAHaHA -
> HaaaaaaaaaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
>
> Ha! Ha! HaHa! HaHaHaHa! HaHaHaHaHee! HaHaHaHaHaHeeHee! HaHAhaHAHaHO! HaHO!HO!
> HaHaHaHO!HO!HEE! HoHEEhaw. HoHEEhawHAW! HAW! HAW! HAA! HO! HAW! HEE! HRAK! HRK!
> heekee heekee heehee hee hee hee Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
>
> HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK  HREEEK
>
> haAHaHA -
> HaaaaaaaaaaaaHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
>
>
>
> R i c h a r d  D i l l o n
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> --



From MillB at aol.com  Wed Nov  3 14:37:42 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:37:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Charles Simic
Message-ID: <1dc.2f201452.2eba8d86@aol.com>

FEAR

Fear passes from man to  man
Unknowing,
As one leaf passes its shudder
To another.

All at  once the whole tree is trembling
And there is no sign of the  wind.

Charles Simic
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  3 14:41:13 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:41:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <00c601c4c1c8$9d23de10$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <20041103194113.74118.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com>

Seems Diane Ackerman isn't familiar with the
philosophy nor the theology Christianity.  If
anything, Christianity is about self-knowledge, at
least in my understanding.  I understand my fallen
state.  I understand that I alone am not enough to
rule the world.

I don't that a poetry list is a place to have a
theological parsing out of Christianity, but this
quotation is offensive--not because I disagree, but
because her interpretation is simply wrong.  Christ
doesn't urge us to "live for tomorrow," as Ackerman
seems to suggest below.  Rather, Christianity is about
how one lives NOW.  Nowhere does Christ imply that
what you do now doesn't matter.  Yes, Christians
believe in an afterlife, and yest Christians believe
that they will be rewarded.  But, Christianity isn't a
simple "let's just forget about the body and forget
about now" philosophy.  Indeed, it's silly to assume
that Christianity "hates the body."  That's
Gnosticism.  

I'll continue this discussion backchannel if anyone is
interested.

Yours,

Jeff Newberry


> "Christianity arose as a slave-class movement,"
> wrote Diane Ackerman in A Natural History of the
> Senses, "emphasizing self-denial, restraint, the
> poor inheriting the earth, a rich and free life
> after death, and the ultimate punishment of the
> luxury-loving rich in the eternal tortures of hell.
> . . . it was from this class-consciousness and a
> pride in poverty and simplicity that the hatred of
> the body was born. . . . All agreeable sensations
> were damned. . . . Pleasure was synonomous with
> Hell."
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov  3 07:55:46 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:55:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <OF11C7BF2C.7A2B4B43-ON85256F41.006967A7-85256F41.006A96F3@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <BDAE3172.7634%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/3/04 1:24 PM, "d.kellogg at neu.edu" <d.kellogg at neu.edu> wrote:

> Actually Paul, we don't have to wait four years to change the composition of
> the government: 
> 
> - We can insist that Bush's radical right-wing judicial appointments be
> rejected 
> - We can insist on the rejection of every right-wing ideologue he nominates
> for an appointed position (given the likely departure of Colin Powell, I
> assume that means everybody he nominates)
> - We can seek Bush's impeachment for any number of causes
> - We can elect progressives to Congress in two years, not four

Exactly. The democratic process will continue--and , yes, Congressional
elections will come around again in just two years. Talk of Fascism at this
stage is a misuse of language.

Paul
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Nov  3 15:07:03 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:07:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <BDAE3172.7634%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <OF11C7BF2C.7A2B4B43-ON85256F41.006967A7-85256F41.006A96F3@neu.edu>
Message-ID: <4188F417.6807.8E4FA4@localhost>

On 3 Nov 2004 at 6:55, Paul Lake wrote:
> ... The democratic process will continue--and , yes, 
> Congressional elections will come around again in just two years. Talk
> of Fascism at this stage is a misuse of language.

Talk of Fascism in the near future is a misuse of language -- but 
let's look at the longer term.

The liberals are only 20% of the country; and the progressives number
even fewer. The notion that the Democratic Party represents anything
remotely resembling what you seem to hope it does here is simply
na?ve. 80% of the country is conservative. Blacks and Hispanics will,
over the next decade, start to vote more and more with the Republican
fundamentalist Christian moral view, abandoning the hapless Democrats
who have not been able to help them. Blacks, especially, will see a
path to both power and prosperity through the appeal to fellow-
Christians, however white, of their common Christianity, and their
common views of what constitutes morality -- and they'll take that
path in increasing numbers. By 2016 or 2020 Republicans will get half
the Black vote and a third of the Hispanic vote.

The liberal/progressives will be left with such a reduced Democratic
Party that they will be unable to win even state or local elections,
and ultimately the Republicans will split into two different
conservative parties, one more populist and one more capitalist. The
liberal/progressives will be left with no choice but to join the
populist one, and accept the fact of distinct minority party-within-a-

party status.

What liberals/progressives can't accept now in the current Democratic
Party is that that's exactly what they are now.

The Red State/Blue State split is illusory -- the only thing that
makes elections such as this immediately past one close is the number
of conservatives who vote Democratic out of habit or a perception
they have nowhere else to go. But Black and Hispanic Americans are
just as conservative as White Americans, and the 2000 and 2004
elections will demonstrate to them that they cannot win with the
political baggage of the liberal-to-progressives, and they'll abandon
the Democratic Party for the Republican Party, for a while.

By mid-century we ought to see two conservative parties, one called
"Republicans" and the other something else, but no "Democrats".

And both the dominant conservative parties will still be male-
dominated. I predict we'll never see more women in high office than
we see right now, because conservatives, fundamentally, simply do not
believe that it is appropriate for women to serve in such offices,
nor even to work outside the home, when you come right down to it.
These new conservative political parties will be less and less
accommodating to women, to gays, to civil rights in general, to
intellectuals and to education in general, as well as more and more
imperialistic, more interventionist in the world. Together these
parties will create in that world the reality of opposition to any
American policies on the very reasonable grounds that American
policies, as such conservatives practice them, will be cynically self-
serving and increasingly brutal as the opposition to American 
policies generates increased "stay the course, we're right" 
determination to apply more and more force in more and more places.

Once you start thinking about how to solve world problems with your
army, the possibilities never end -- and demands more and more armies
to keep down the people who keeping people down with armies has
aroused. It's a recipe for an American Empire and by 2100 the US
armed forces will be about half composed of people born in other
countries who may have never even been to the US except on leave or
R&R, and maybe not even then.  From that point the path of decline is
easy to see, and by 2150 the US as a world power will be finished,
having used up its astonishing but not inexhaustible resources
fighting war after war after war around the world.

And it seems to me that this conservative victory, masquerading as a
Republican one, is the first step on that path.

Marcus





From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov  3 08:08:25 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:08:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <20041103192425.203.qmail@web54603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BDAE3469.7636%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/3/04 1:24 PM, "Rossitza Shkodrova" <shkodrov at yahoo.com> wrote:

> There are *other* alternatives than "ruled by
> concerns," which not necessarily lead to "abolishing
> voting." One that I would propose right away is making
> informed decisions... based on mutual acceptance and
> genuine love rather than ignorant judgments and "moral
> values." For this one to happen though, we might need
> better sources of information and education. The
> propaganda opposed to argument was also discovered by
> fascists, btw.


Rosie, we're lucky to be able to have a vigorous discussion in this country.
Just because they didn't win the election, Democrats and Progressives of all
stripes will continue a vigorous debate. From the look on  Dan Rather's face
last night, I don't thing the media and voices on the internet and other
media are just going to become instruments of Republican propaganda.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From MillB at aol.com  Wed Nov  3 15:10:44 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:10:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
Message-ID: <bf.498771ba.2eba9544@aol.com>

Become?
 
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov  3 08:22:04 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:22:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8
In-Reply-To: <4188F417.6807.8E4FA4@localhost>
Message-ID: <BDAE379C.763C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/3/04 2:07 PM, "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> On 3 Nov 2004 at 6:55, Paul Lake wrote:
>> ... The democratic process will continue--and , yes,
>> Congressional elections will come around again in just two years. Talk
>> of Fascism at this stage is a misuse of language.
> 
> Talk of Fascism in the near future is a misuse of language -- but
> let's look at the longer term.
> 
> The liberals are only 20% of the country; and the progressives number
> even fewer. The notion that the Democratic Party represents anything
> remotely resembling what you seem to hope it does here is simply
> na?ve. 80% of the country is conservative. Blacks and Hispanics will,
> over the next decade, start to vote more and more with the Republican
> fundamentalist Christian moral view, abandoning the hapless Democrats
> who have not been able to help them. Blacks, especially, will see a
> path to both power and prosperity through the appeal to fellow-
> Christians, however white, of their common Christianity, and their
> common views of what constitutes morality -- and they'll take that
> path in increasing numbers. By 2016 or 2020 Republicans will get half
> the Black vote and a third of the Hispanic vote.
> 
> The liberal/progressives will be left with such a reduced Democratic
> Party that they will be unable to win even state or local elections,
> and ultimately the Republicans will split into two different
> conservative parties, one more populist and one more capitalist. The
> liberal/progressives will be left with no choice but to join the
> populist one, and accept the fact of distinct minority party-within-a-
> 
> party status.
> 
> What liberals/progressives can't accept now in the current Democratic
> Party is that that's exactly what they are now.
> 
> The Red State/Blue State split is illusory -- the only thing that
> makes elections such as this immediately past one close is the number
> of conservatives who vote Democratic out of habit or a perception
> they have nowhere else to go. But Black and Hispanic Americans are
> just as conservative as White Americans, and the 2000 and 2004
> elections will demonstrate to them that they cannot win with the
> political baggage of the liberal-to-progressives, and they'll abandon
> the Democratic Party for the Republican Party, for a while.
> 
> By mid-century we ought to see two conservative parties, one called
> "Republicans" and the other something else, but no "Democrats".
> 
> And both the dominant conservative parties will still be male-
> dominated. I predict we'll never see more women in high office than
> we see right now, because conservatives, fundamentally, simply do not
> believe that it is appropriate for women to serve in such offices,
> nor even to work outside the home, when you come right down to it.
> These new conservative political parties will be less and less
> accommodating to women, to gays, to civil rights in general, to
> intellectuals and to education in general, as well as more and more
> imperialistic, more interventionist in the world. Together these
> parties will create in that world the reality of opposition to any
> American policies on the very reasonable grounds that American
> policies, as such conservatives practice them, will be cynically self-
> serving and increasingly brutal as the opposition to American
> policies generates increased "stay the course, we're right"
> determination to apply more and more force in more and more places.
> 
> Once you start thinking about how to solve world problems with your
> army, the possibilities never end -- and demands more and more armies
> to keep down the people who keeping people down with armies has
> aroused. It's a recipe for an American Empire and by 2100 the US
> armed forces will be about half composed of people born in other
> countries who may have never even been to the US except on leave or
> R&R, and maybe not even then.  From that point the path of decline is
> easy to see, and by 2150 the US as a world power will be finished,
> having used up its astonishing but not inexhaustible resources
> fighting war after war after war around the world.
> 
> And it seems to me that this conservative victory, masquerading as a
> Republican one, is the first step on that path.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
This is a pretty dark view of the future, Marcus. One thing I might take
issue with you might be that since about 53% of the American electorate is
women, I don't think it will be men holding women outside the political
process as much as women making choices in what they see as their own
self-interest, based in part on social conventions and cultural attitudes
that they've adopted. After all, even if a draft were to return, women could
use their power at the ballot box to maintain their exemption from the draft
and let the status quo--of men manning the front lines--to maintain their
personal security in the nightmarish American future you envision.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov  3 15:28:29 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:28:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <20041103194113.74118.qmail@web52606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01b901c4c1e3$aeb80910$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I try my best to avoid getting into disputes about religion and politics, so 
won't get into this one except to say as a taxonomist that I doubt anyone 
can define Christianity in a way everyone else will accept.  The only thing 
all the different kinds of Christianity have in common besides deism is a 
belief in the divinity or other very special nature of Jesus Christ.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day


> Seems Diane Ackerman isn't familiar with the
> philosophy nor the theology Christianity.  If
> anything, Christianity is about self-knowledge, at
> least in my understanding.  I understand my fallen
> state.  I understand that I alone am not enough to
> rule the world.
>
> I don't that a poetry list is a place to have a
> theological parsing out of Christianity, but this
> quotation is offensive--not because I disagree, but
> because her interpretation is simply wrong.  Christ
> doesn't urge us to "live for tomorrow," as Ackerman
> seems to suggest below.  Rather, Christianity is about
> how one lives NOW.  Nowhere does Christ imply that
> what you do now doesn't matter.  Yes, Christians
> believe in an afterlife, and yest Christians believe
> that they will be rewarded.  But, Christianity isn't a
> simple "let's just forget about the body and forget
> about now" philosophy.  Indeed, it's silly to assume
> that Christianity "hates the body."  That's
> Gnosticism.
>
> I'll continue this discussion backchannel if anyone is
> interested.
>
> Yours,
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
>> "Christianity arose as a slave-class movement,"
>> wrote Diane Ackerman in A Natural History of the
>> Senses, "emphasizing self-denial, restraint, the
>> poor inheriting the earth, a rich and free life
>> after death, and the ultimate punishment of the
>> luxury-loving rich in the eternal tortures of hell.
>> . . . it was from this class-consciousness and a
>> pride in poverty and simplicity that the hatred of
>> the body was born. . . . All agreeable sensations
>> were damned. . . . Pleasure was synonomous with
>> Hell."
>>
>
>
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov  3 08:30:16 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:30:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Free Expression
In-Reply-To: <004701c4c134$2cb758d0$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <BDAE3988.763F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Understandably, after last night?s election, we?ve drifted a bit far from
the subject of poetry today. But the following article might remind us about
a very real threat to our artistic expression as poets?and perhaps inform
some of our talk about Fascism, war, women?s rights,  etc.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041103/ap_en_ot/netherlands_fi
lmmaker_slain_25
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Nov  3 16:07:17 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:07:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] ] Glory be to God for dappled things!
Message-ID: <00cb01c4c1e9$1a7914a0$5bdef63f@Helen>

I saved this because I like to look at it from time to time.
Today's a good day for it

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louie Crew" <lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 9:20 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things!


>A friend alerted me:
>
>> Florida State University has put up a very interesting presentation
>> on their website. It begins as a view of the Milky Way Galaxy viewed
>> from a distance of 10 million light years and then zooms in towards
>> Earth in powers of ten of distance -10 million, to one million, to
>> 100,000 light years, etc., until it finally reaches a large Oak tree
>> leaf. But that is not all.  It zooms into the leaf until it reaches
>> to the level of the quarks viewed at 100 attometers.  Whew!
>>
>> http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.htm
>
>
> This is one of the most moving websites I have visited in months.  It
> will surprise you with joy, the way a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem does.
>
> Lutibelle/Louie
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Nov  3 16:38:45 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:38:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] the courage of George W. Bush
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041103153824.02744008@mail.ilstu.edu>

"Many of today's world leaders have great courage: the courage to do harm. 
They are ill-advised, too clever, or too skillful. I think bad political 
systems, by which I mean systems that are not founded on a desire for 
justice, are mainly due to a type of short-sightedness. When politicians 
see things only in the short term, they inevitably only see the short-term 
gains. That is how they develop the type of courage that is necessary to 
harm others."--His Holiness the Dalai Lama, The Dalai Lama's Book of Inner 
Peace 
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From bobheff at esatclear.ie  Wed Nov  3 16:54:35 2004
From: bobheff at esatclear.ie (Robert Heffernan)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:54:35 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetics
Message-ID: <1099518875.1370.2.camel@Arwen>

Hi to all on the list,

My name is Robert Heffernan.  I've been lurking for a few weeks now so
people may not recognise my name although I might well recognise yours
by now.

Well.  I am posting to ask a question of those on the list.

What, in your opinion, are the currently most important poetics at the
moment? What are the most important schools of poetical thought?  If one
were interested in trying to put one's finger on the current poetical
pulse, who should he read, what direction should he look in?

What are people's opinions on who are the most 'important' poets of the
moment (important as innovators, etc., rather than poets whom you admire
or whatever.)

What are people's opinions on the direction poetry (in the large, in in
several large chunks) is moving right now?

I have found searching for information on contemporary poetics on the
net to be a futile affair.  I think if one is not already clued in one
does not recognise whats out there.

I understand that this is a question that does not really have a proper
objective answer but I am sure that there are trends that can be
observed in the large (or several concurrent trends at least).

I also understand that this is a question that is likely to have been
asked in the past.  If so I apologise.

thank you,

bob



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Nov  3 16:57:25 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:57:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetics
Message-ID: <7e.5cb733a9.2ebaae45@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/3/2004 3:54:34 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobheff at esatclear.ie writes: 
> Hi to all on the list,
> 
> My name is Robert Heffernan.  I've been lurking for a few weeks now so
> people may not recognise my name although I might well recognise yours
> by now.
> 
> Well.  I am posting to ask a question of those on the list.
> 
> What, in your opinion, are the currently most important poetics at the
> moment? What are the most important schools of poetical thought?  If one
> were interested in trying to put one's finger on the current poetical
> pulse, who should he read, what direction should he look in?
> 
> What are people's opinions on who are the most 'important' poets of the
> moment (important as innovators, etc., rather than poets whom you admire
> or whatever.)
> 
> What are people's opinions on the direction poetry (in the large, in in
> several large chunks) is moving right now?
> 
> I have found searching for information on contemporary poetics on the
> net to be a futile affair.  I think if one is not already clued in one
> does not recognise whats out there.
> 
> I understand that this is a question that does not really have a proper
> objective answer but I am sure that there are trends that can be
> observed in the large (or several concurrent trends at least).
> 
> I also understand that this is a question that is likely to have been
> asked in the past.  If so I apologise.
> 
> thank you,
> 
> bob
> 
There's so much diversity on the current scene that it's hard to single out 
one "school."  My new anthology (edited with April Lindner), Contemporary 
American Poetry: A Pocket Anthology, attempts to identify most of the contemporary 
movements, though I can't claim that we give equal representation to all of 
them.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov  3 19:07:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:07:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetics
References: <1099518875.1370.2.camel@Arwen>
Message-ID: <028401c4c202$50ffc8c0$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Hello, Robert.  You name looks familiar to me.  Anyway, as regulars at New-Poetry know, I'm incapable of resisting questions like yours.  Or irritating a lot of participants with my answers.  

> My name is Robert Heffernan.  I've been lurking for a few weeks now so
> people may not recognise my name although I might well recognise yours
> by now.
> 
> Well.  I am posting to ask a question of those on the list.
> 
> What, in your opinion, are the currently most important poetics at the moment? 

Frankly, I'm not aware of anyone whos getting prose published on poetics who is saying anything interesting, but I haven't made a determined effort to find anyone.


What are the most important schools of poetical thought?

I'm a source of amusement around here for pushing for a list of poetry schools, which--I suppose--would include their members poetical thought.  I have an essay at About Poetry about schools of poetry.  The address is:
http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/aa092397.htm

I've written a lot about schools of poetry here, too, which you should be able to find with a search.  (Amusing note: a friend of mine is taking a class on poetry at Stanford--and she was pleasantly surprised a week ago by a copy of my list that the TA passed out to everyone, so the thing is getting circulated, just not influencing anyone, that I know of.)


  If one
> were interested in trying to put one's finger on the current poetical
> pulse, who should he read, what direction should he look in?

I claim there's no one he could go to because of the lack of a decent list of schools of poetry.  I'm pretty good on thel the schools of what I call burstnorm poetry, but probably ten years behind the scene by now (which puts me twenty years ahead of just about everyone else regularly writing about poetry).
 
> What are people's opinions on who are the most 'important' poets of the
> moment (important as innovators, etc., rather than poets whom you admire
> or whatever.)

Interesting.  I distinguish in my writing between important poets and effective poets--although I recognize that some poets are both.  Important poets are those who advance poetry.  I claim that most of the poets involved in language poetry and visual poetry are (still) the important poets of the time.  Then there are all the poets I know only vaguely who are exploiting the special features of the computer both on and off the Internet. 
 
> What are people's opinions on the direction poetry (in the large, in in
> several large chunks) is moving right now?

Most of it isn't moving anywhere, but visual poetry seems to have gotten a big impetus from the possibilities for color the computer offers, and for animation.  And more and more kinds of what I call pluraesthetic poetry are being explored.  That's poetry making significant aesthetic use of more than one expressive modality.  My own mathematical poetry is one of the most obscure examples of it.

> I have found searching for information on contemporary poetics on the
> net to be a futile affair.  I think if one is not already clued in one
> does not recognise whats out there.

Yes.  We need some kind of Major List of Schools, with good descriptions of each, and links to those in each, and to articles on the schools.  Etc.
 
> I understand that this is a question that does not really have a proper
> objective answer but I am sure that there are trends that can be
> observed in the large (or several concurrent trends at least).
> 
> I also understand that this is a question that is likely to have been
> asked in the past.  If so I apologise.
> 
> thank you,
> 
> bob
 
I don't feel it can be asked too often.  

--Bob G.
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From bobheff at esatclear.ie  Wed Nov  3 19:50:23 2004
From: bobheff at esatclear.ie (Robert Heffernan)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 00:50:23 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetics
In-Reply-To: <028401c4c202$50ffc8c0$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <1099518875.1370.2.camel@Arwen>
	<028401c4c202$50ffc8c0$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <1099529423.1131.15.camel@Arwen>

Just a quick back-channel reply.
Thanks for your answer.  In response to your assertion that it's a
question that can not be asked too often, I couldn't agree more.

I've already received a few replies along the lines of "there's too much
diversity, it's not possible to separate things out into schools", which
strikes me as an unusual point of view.  Surely part of understanding
something is to try and compare it to other similar things.

All of this has stemmed from an inability to appreciate recent poetry. 
I can read somebody like Eliot and enjoy him because I have a wealth of
information to draw upon.  However, if I pick up something by one of the
more popular current poets (I'm Irish so I've been reading Montague,
Hughes, Motion, Muldoon, Kinsella and other Irish and British poets) I
have a very difficult time knowing how to read it, or even identifying
the method behind the poetry (much of what I've mentioned seems to me to
be relatively uninteresting style-wise and overly-personal voice-wise. 
But then, I could be missing things.).  When it comes to anything more
interesting or experimental I don't even know where to start looking.

None of this is helped by the fact that I'm a Mathematics student and
not a Literature student or anything similar.

All of this stems from a desire to write poetry but I feel an inability
to write without first understanding what other people are writing.

Well, this has turned out to be much longer than anticipated.  I will
leave you be.  I look forward to following up on some of the things in
your list (and searching for older posts of yours).

Thank you

bob

On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 00:07, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Hello, Robert.  You name looks familiar to me.  Anyway, as regulars at
> New-Poetry know, I'm incapable of resisting questions like yours.  Or
> irritating a lot of participants with my answers.  
>  
> > My name is Robert Heffernan.  I've been lurking for a few weeks now
> so
> > people may not recognise my name although I might well recognise
> yours
> > by now.
> > 
> > Well.  I am posting to ask a question of those on the list.
> > 
> > What, in your opinion, are the currently most important poetics at
> the moment? 
>  
> Frankly, I'm not aware of anyone whos getting prose published on
> poetics who is saying anything interesting, but I haven't made a
> determined effort to find anyone.
>  
>  
> What are the most important schools of poetical thought?
>  
> I'm a source of amusement around here for pushing for a list of poetry
> schools, which--I suppose--would include their members poetical
> thought.  I have an essay at About Poetry about schools of poetry. 
> The address is:
> http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/aa092397.htm
>  
> I've written a lot about schools of poetry here, too, which you should
> be able to find with a search.  (Amusing note: a friend of mine is
> taking a class on poetry at Stanford--and she was pleasantly surprised
> a week ago by a copy of my list that the TA passed out to everyone, so
> the thing is getting circulated, just not influencing anyone, that I
> know of.)
>  
>  
>   If one
> > were interested in trying to put one's finger on the current
> poetical
> > pulse, who should he read, what direction should he look in?
> 
> I claim there's no one he could go to because of the lack of a decent
> list of schools of poetry.  I'm pretty good on thel the schools of
> what I call burstnorm poetry, but probably ten years behind the scene
> by now (which puts me twenty years ahead of just about everyone else
> regularly writing about poetry).
>  
> > What are people's opinions on who are the most 'important' poets of
> the
> > moment (important as innovators, etc., rather than poets whom you
> admire
> > or whatever.)
> 
> Interesting.  I distinguish in my writing between important poets and
> effective poets--although I recognize that some poets are both. 
> Important poets are those who advance poetry.  I claim that most of
> the poets involved in language poetry and visual poetry are (still)
> the important poets of the time.  Then there are all the poets I know
> only vaguely who are exploiting the special features of the computer
> both on and off the Internet. 
>  
> > What are people's opinions on the direction poetry (in the large, in
> in
> > several large chunks) is moving right now?
> 
> Most of it isn't moving anywhere, but visual poetry seems to have
> gotten a big impetus from the possibilities for color the computer
> offers, and for animation.  And more and more kinds of what I call
> pluraesthetic poetry are being explored.  That's poetry making
> significant aesthetic use of more than one expressive modality.  My
> own mathematical poetry is one of the most obscure examples of it.
>  
> > I have found searching for information on contemporary poetics on
> the
> > net to be a futile affair.  I think if one is not already clued in
> one
> > does not recognise whats out there.
> 
> Yes.  We need some kind of Major List of Schools, with good
> descriptions of each, and links to those in each, and to articles on
> the schools.  Etc.
>  
> > I understand that this is a question that does not really have a
> proper
> > objective answer but I am sure that there are trends that can be
> > observed in the large (or several concurrent trends at least).
> > 
> > I also understand that this is a question that is likely to have
> been
> > asked in the past.  If so I apologise.
> > 
> > thank you,
> > 
> > bob
>  
> I don't feel it can be asked too often.  
>  
> --Bob G.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobheff at esatclear.ie  Wed Nov  3 19:58:01 2004
From: bobheff at esatclear.ie (Robert Heffernan)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 00:58:01 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetics
In-Reply-To: <1099529423.1131.15.camel@Arwen>
References: <1099518875.1370.2.camel@Arwen>
	<028401c4c202$50ffc8c0$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<1099529423.1131.15.camel@Arwen>
Message-ID: <1099529880.1131.20.camel@Arwen>

Oops.

That was intended for Bob Grumman only.  My apologies for posting to the
entire list.  I don't think I said anything too embarrassing. :)

Perhaps some of it will aid the discussion.

I'm still a little new to the mailing-list thing.  Sorry.

On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 00:50, Robert Heffernan wrote:
> Just a quick back-channel reply.
> Thanks for your answer.  In response to your assertion that it's a
> question that can not be asked too often, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> I've already received a few replies along the lines of "there's too much
> diversity, it's not possible to separate things out into schools", which
> strikes me as an unusual point of view.  Surely part of understanding
> something is to try and compare it to other similar things.
> 
> All of this has stemmed from an inability to appreciate recent poetry. 
> I can read somebody like Eliot and enjoy him because I have a wealth of
> information to draw upon.  However, if I pick up something by one of the
> more popular current poets (I'm Irish so I've been reading Montague,
> Hughes, Motion, Muldoon, Kinsella and other Irish and British poets) I
> have a very difficult time knowing how to read it, or even identifying
> the method behind the poetry (much of what I've mentioned seems to me to
> be relatively uninteresting style-wise and overly-personal voice-wise. 
> But then, I could be missing things.).  When it comes to anything more
> interesting or experimental I don't even know where to start looking.
> 
> None of this is helped by the fact that I'm a Mathematics student and
> not a Literature student or anything similar.
> 
> All of this stems from a desire to write poetry but I feel an inability
> to write without first understanding what other people are writing.
> 
> Well, this has turned out to be much longer than anticipated.  I will
> leave you be.  I look forward to following up on some of the things in
> your list (and searching for older posts of yours).
> 
> Thank you
> 
> bob
> 
> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 00:07, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > Hello, Robert.  You name looks familiar to me.  Anyway, as regulars at
> > New-Poetry know, I'm incapable of resisting questions like yours.  Or
> > irritating a lot of participants with my answers.  
> >  
> > > My name is Robert Heffernan.  I've been lurking for a few weeks now
> > so
> > > people may not recognise my name although I might well recognise
> > yours
> > > by now.
> > > 
> > > Well.  I am posting to ask a question of those on the list.
> > > 
> > > What, in your opinion, are the currently most important poetics at
> > the moment? 
> >  
> > Frankly, I'm not aware of anyone whos getting prose published on
> > poetics who is saying anything interesting, but I haven't made a
> > determined effort to find anyone.
> >  
> >  
> > What are the most important schools of poetical thought?
> >  
> > I'm a source of amusement around here for pushing for a list of poetry
> > schools, which--I suppose--would include their members poetical
> > thought.  I have an essay at About Poetry about schools of poetry. 
> > The address is:
> > http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/aa092397.htm
> >  
> > I've written a lot about schools of poetry here, too, which you should
> > be able to find with a search.  (Amusing note: a friend of mine is
> > taking a class on poetry at Stanford--and she was pleasantly surprised
> > a week ago by a copy of my list that the TA passed out to everyone, so
> > the thing is getting circulated, just not influencing anyone, that I
> > know of.)
> >  
> >  
> >   If one
> > > were interested in trying to put one's finger on the current
> > poetical
> > > pulse, who should he read, what direction should he look in?
> > 
> > I claim there's no one he could go to because of the lack of a decent
> > list of schools of poetry.  I'm pretty good on thel the schools of
> > what I call burstnorm poetry, but probably ten years behind the scene
> > by now (which puts me twenty years ahead of just about everyone else
> > regularly writing about poetry).
> >  
> > > What are people's opinions on who are the most 'important' poets of
> > the
> > > moment (important as innovators, etc., rather than poets whom you
> > admire
> > > or whatever.)
> > 
> > Interesting.  I distinguish in my writing between important poets and
> > effective poets--although I recognize that some poets are both. 
> > Important poets are those who advance poetry.  I claim that most of
> > the poets involved in language poetry and visual poetry are (still)
> > the important poets of the time.  Then there are all the poets I know
> > only vaguely who are exploiting the special features of the computer
> > both on and off the Internet. 
> >  
> > > What are people's opinions on the direction poetry (in the large, in
> > in
> > > several large chunks) is moving right now?
> > 
> > Most of it isn't moving anywhere, but visual poetry seems to have
> > gotten a big impetus from the possibilities for color the computer
> > offers, and for animation.  And more and more kinds of what I call
> > pluraesthetic poetry are being explored.  That's poetry making
> > significant aesthetic use of more than one expressive modality.  My
> > own mathematical poetry is one of the most obscure examples of it.
> >  
> > > I have found searching for information on contemporary poetics on
> > the
> > > net to be a futile affair.  I think if one is not already clued in
> > one
> > > does not recognise whats out there.
> > 
> > Yes.  We need some kind of Major List of Schools, with good
> > descriptions of each, and links to those in each, and to articles on
> > the schools.  Etc.
> >  
> > > I understand that this is a question that does not really have a
> > proper
> > > objective answer but I am sure that there are trends that can be
> > > observed in the large (or several concurrent trends at least).
> > > 
> > > I also understand that this is a question that is likely to have
> > been
> > > asked in the past.  If so I apologise.
> > > 
> > > thank you,
> > > 
> > > bob
> >  
> > I don't feel it can be asked too often.  
> >  
> > --Bob G.
> > 
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From acgold01 at louisville.edu  Wed Nov  3 21:54:03 2004
From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:54:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Irish poetry
Message-ID: <s1895380.075@gwise.louisville.edu>

Welcome, Bob.  "When it comes to anything more interesting or
experimental I don't even know where to start looking," you write.  One
place to start that I'd recommend would be Randolph Healy's Wild Honey
Press web site (the url of which you could google), and with the work of
Randolph himself, Trevor Joyce, Billy Mills, Catherine Walsh, Maurice
Scully, Mairead Byrne (all more "experimental" Irish writers than those
you mention and suggest that you're a bit tired of, and all except the
latter resident in Ireland).  Another place would be Keith Tuma's
doorstop Oxford anthology of twentieth-century British and Irish poetry,
which includes many poets on whom it can otherwise be hard to find
material.

All best,

Alan


From bardo at optonline.net  Wed Nov  3 23:00:16 2004
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 23:00:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <BDAE15DB.761F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <012801c4c222$cb5e2d80$3a95c044@MULDER>

Re: [New-Poetry] words for the dayMinds? Viscera. 
(In their guts, they didn't know he's nuts
--or perhaps they do, and love it.)

Do you imagine that anything other than an elite rules America?
Now we've got the ultimate elite: a president who takes his
marching orders from "a higher Father." Does Moses
Bush actually propose to lead us to the Promised Land?
Moses, of course, as a murderer, couldn't enter Canaan;
Bush, as a multiple felon, might have trouble, too (see
Ramsay Clark's Articles of Impeachment). 

About 29 million people 'voted' on touch screen machines
that leave no paper trail and which hackers can rig without
evidence of the rigging; Wally O'Dell, head of Ohio-based
Diebold, a manufacturer of large numbers of such machines--
the Ohio Bush campaign chief--vowed to do anything
he could to deliver Ohio for the Resident. Doesn't that
make your mind swoon and your gut gag simultaneously?

~ Dan Zimmerman
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 5:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day


  On 11/3/04 11:14 AM, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote:


    Moral values and concerns were what was most on the minds of voters.


  In a democracy the "concerns . . . on the minds of the voters" determine who gets elected.  
  The alternative is rule by an elite.  Maybe next time a new set of moral concerns will prevail. You don't want to abolish voting, do you?

  Paul Lake 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Nov  4 00:15:02 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 23:15:02 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jim =?iso-8859-1?q?=E9?= nez/Has everything happened?
In-Reply-To: <003001c4c1b2$d36fb770$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BDAF16F6.CA87%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I don't know a great deal about Jim?nez, either, and I can't judge the
accuracy of Bly's rendition, but this little poem has been a favorite of
mine for about 30 years now.  Jim?nez was born in 1905, won the Nobel in
1956, so I imagine he's a pretty big deal in Spain.


on 11/3/04 8:38 AM, The Old Mole at tad at opus40.org wrote:

> David - chilling and apt. I don't know Jimenez. I'm very moved by this.
> 

> Oceans
> 
> 
> I have a feeling that my boat
> has struck, down there in the depths,
> against a great thing.
> And nothing
> happens!  Nothing. . .  Silence. . .  Waves. . .
> 
> --Nothing happens?  Or has everything happened,
> and are we standing now, quietly, in the new life?
> 
> --Juan Ram?n Jim?nez, trans. Rbt. Bly
> 

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Nov  4 00:47:51 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 23:47:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Jim =?iso-8859-1?q?=E9?= nez
In-Reply-To: <BDAF16F6.CA87%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BDAF1EA7.CA8D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

"I am not I"

I am not I. 
                  I am this one
Walking beside me whom I do not see.
Whom at times I manage to visit,
And at other times I forget;
who remains calm and silent when I talk,
and forgives, gently, when I hate,
who walks where I am not,
who will remain standing when I die.

-- Juan Ram?n Jim?nez, trans. Robert Bly. *Lorca & Jim?nez:  Selected
Poems*.  Beacon Press, 1973.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  4 06:47:16 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:47:16 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Jim_=E9_nez/Has_everything_happened=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <BDAF16F6.CA87%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEBCJDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


{    I don't know a great deal about Jim?nez, either, and I can't judge the
{    accuracy of Bly's rendition, but this little poem has been a favorite of
{    mine for about 30 years now.  Jim?nez was born in 1905, won the Nobel in
{    1956, so I imagine he's a pretty big deal in Spain.

He is/was also a pretty big deal in Maryland, where he taught for some years
at the College Park campus of the Univ. of Maryland. There's a hall named
for him there.

Hal                              Today's Special
                                  Coyote's Engines
           http://www.poeticinhalation.com/pi_featureartist_Coyote'sEngines.pdf

Halvard Johnson
halvard at earthlink.net
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Nov  4 07:49:44 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:49:44 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] on translations
Message-ID: <008f01c4c26c$c36fff50$8faa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Do we have a JforJames here? :-)

>From Poetry About.com http://poetry.about.com/b/a/123743.htm?nl=1

Translation gives you a new perspective on poetry
Robert Frost famously said, "Poetry is what gets lost in translation." But as JforJames of the Newpoetry list recently reminded us, this idea is given the lie in "a lovely little book called 19 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei... nineteen different translations of a single poem ('Deer Park' or 'Deer Enclosoure') with comments on each version by Eliot Weinberger and introduction contributed by the late great Octavio Paz." This small volume can be the source for endless meditations on how words mean, how the lines of a poem convey beauty & truth, and what happens in the translation from thought to poem.


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  4 07:57:08 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 05:57:08 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] on translations
References: <008f01c4c26c$c36fff50$8faa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <418A2724.A572C4B1@earthlink.net>

And the lovely little book is available where?  How?

- Jim for James

> Anny Ballardini wrote:
> 
> Do we have a JforJames here? :-)
> 
> From Poetry About.com http://poetry.about.com/b/a/123743.htm?nl=1
> 
> Translation gives you a new perspective on poetry
> Robert Frost famously said, ?Poetry is what gets lost in translation.?
> But as JforJames of the Newpoetry list recently reminded us, this idea
> is given the lie in ?a lovely little book called 19 Ways of Looking at
> Wang Wei... nineteen different translations of a single poem (?Deer
> Park? or ?Deer Enclosoure?) with comments on each version by Eliot
> Weinberger and introduction contributed by the late great Octavio
> Paz.? This small volume can be the source for endless meditations on
> how words mean, how the lines of a poem convey beauty & truth, and
> what happens in the translation from thought to poem.
> 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
> admirers.
> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
> 
> 
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Nov  4 09:05:06 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:05:06 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Jim=E9nez?=
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A441@mail.ripon.edu>

> {    I don't know a great deal about Jim?nez, either, and I can't judge
> the
> {    accuracy of Bly's rendition, but this little poem has been a favorite
> of
> {    mine for about 30 years now.  Jim?nez was born in 1905, won the Nobel
> in
> {    1956, so I imagine he's a pretty big deal in Spain.
> 
I spoke even more truly than I knew when I said I didn't know much.  Jim?nez
was born in 1881, not 1905.  A slightly older contemporary of Lorca.  Hal's
right--he spent a good bit of time in the U.S., evidently.  Bly translates
from an interesting-looking collection called *Diary of a Poet Recently
Married* (1916), which covers his first U.S. trip and anticipates Lorca's
*Poet in NY*.  Some acid reflections on American poets--I'll see if I can
locate one of those pieces.  
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Halvard Johnson
> 



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov  4 09:09:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:09:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] on translations
References: <008f01c4c26c$c36fff50$8faa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <010801c4c277$e32b9ec0$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Do we have a JforJames here? :-)

  From Poetry About.com http://poetry.about.com/b/a/123743.htm?nl=1

  Translation gives you a new perspective on poetry
  Robert Frost famously said, "Poetry is what gets lost in translation." But as JforJames of the Newpoetry list recently reminded us, this idea is given the lie in "a lovely little book called 19 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei... nineteen different translations of a single poem ('Deer Park' or 'Deer Enclosoure') with comments on each version by Eliot Weinberger and introduction contributed by the late great Octavio Paz." This small volume can be the source for endless meditations on how words mean, how the lines of a poem convey beauty & truth, and what happens in the translation from thought to poem.


  Frost is still right, I think, because he's referring to the poetry in the original.  It is lost--even though it may be replaced by a translator's poetry.

  --Bob 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov  4 09:14:28 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:14:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetics
References: <1099518875.1370.2.camel@Arwen><028401c4c202$50ffc8c0$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><1099529423.1131.15.camel@Arwen>
	<1099529880.1131.20.camel@Arwen>
Message-ID: <011701c4c278$995d7740$44b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

No problem with the accidental non-backchannel, Bob H.  Many of the posts to 
New Poetry are personal.  And much more opinionated than yours.

Keep us posted about what you find out.  Oh, and I forgot to mention 
performance poetry as one of the important schools around that you'll find 
very little information about in "legitimate" publications.  It has lots of 
sub-schools, including the slam poets, and--I think--is enlarging the range 
of poetry.

--Bob G. 




From iep at sapo.pt  Thu Nov  4 10:11:33 2004
From: iep at sapo.pt (Iep)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:11:33 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <002701c4c280$92aeace0$6401a8c0@poinggo>

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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Nov  4 10:27:50 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:27:50 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jimenez-Author's Club
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A442@mail.ripon.edu>

Author's Club

I had always thought perhaps there would be no poets at all in New York.
What I had never suspected was that there would be so many bad ones, or a
place like this, as dry and dusty as our own Ateneo in Madrid, in spite of
its being on the 15th floor, almost at the altitude of Parnassus.

Tenth-rate men, all of them, cultivating physical resemblances to Poe, to
Walt Whitman, to Stevenson, to Mark Twain, letting their soul be burned up
with their free cigar, since the two are the same; bushy-haired men who make
fun of Robinson, Frost, Masters, Vachel Lindsay, Amy Lowell and who fail to
make fun of Poe, Emily Dickinson, and Whitman only because they are already
dead. And they show me wall after wall of portraits and autographs in
holograph, of Bryant, of Aldrich, of Lowell, etc., etc., etc. . .

. . . I have taken a cigarette from the fumidor, lighted it and thrown it
into a corner, on the rug, in order to see if the fire will catch and leave
behind it in place of this club of rubbish a high and empty hole, fresh and
deep, with clear stars, in the cloudless sky of this April night.

     --Juan Ram?n Jim?nez.  trans. Robert Bly.  *Lorca & Jim?nez: Selected
Poems*.  Beacon Press.
[originally from *Diary of a Poet Recently Married* (1916)]



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Nov  4 10:29:05 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:29:05 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] on translations
References: <008f01c4c26c$c36fff50$8faa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<418A2724.A572C4B1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002201c4c283$05499830$f7aa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

here you are James:

To buy the book:
19 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei
Compare prices


From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 1:57 PM


> And the lovely little book is available where?  How?
> 
> - Jim for James
> 
> > Anny Ballardini wrote:
> > 
> > Do we have a JforJames here? :-)
> > 
> > From Poetry About.com http://poetry.about.com/b/a/123743.htm?nl=1
> > 
> > Translation gives you a new perspective on poetry
> > Robert Frost famously said, "Poetry is what gets lost in translation."
> > But as JforJames of the Newpoetry list recently reminded us, this idea
> > is given the lie in "a lovely little book called 19 Ways of Looking at
> > Wang Wei... nineteen different translations of a single poem ('Deer
> > Park' or 'Deer Enclosoure') with comments on each version by Eliot
> > Weinberger and introduction contributed by the late great Octavio
> > Paz." This small volume can be the source for endless meditations on
> > how words mean, how the lines of a poem convey beauty & truth, and
> > what happens in the translation from thought to poem.
> > 
> > Anny Ballardini
> > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> > The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
> > admirers.
> > Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Thu Nov  4 10:38:03 2004
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:38:03 -0600
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_Jim=E9nez?=
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A441@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20041104092925.01069510@medicine.nodak.edu>

One small addition to the sample of Jimenez, translator unknown:

I am like a distracted child
whom they drag by the hand
through the fiesta of the world.
My eyes cling, sadly,
to things...
And what misery when they tear me away from them.

Juan Ramon Jimenez



Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Nov  4 10:40:18 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:40:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] on translations
Message-ID: <008301c4c284$966d3eb0$f7aa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Sorry the link didn't get through, click here:

http://about.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?isbn=0918825148&nrd=1

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  4 10:44:50 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:44:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Berlin
In-Reply-To: <002201c4c283$05499830$f7aa3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <20041104154450.56632.qmail@web40402.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, I have some images of Berlin here:
www.theengine.net
if anyone is interestd.
best wishes,
Paul Murphy


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Nov  4 10:48:32 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:48:32 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Jim=E9nez?=
Message-ID: <81.19f02fc1.2ebba950@aol.com>

WALT WHITMAN
Juan Ramon Jimenez, translated by Robert Bly

"But do you really want to see Whitman's house instead of 
Roosevelt's? I've never had this request before!"

The house is tiny and yellow, and next to the railroad track, 
like the hut of a switchman, in a small green patch of grass, 
marked out with whitewashed stones, beneath a single tree. 
Around it, the wide meadow area is open to the wind, which 
sweeps it, and us, and has polished the simple rough piece of 
marble which announces to the trains:

                             TO MARK THE BIRTHPLACE OF 
                                        WALT WHITMAN 
                                    THE GOOD GRAY POET 
                                     BORN MAY 31, 1819 
                       ERECTED BY THE COLONIAL SOCIETY 
                                 OF HUNTINGTON IN 1905

Since the farmer doesn't seem to be at home, I walk around 
the house a couple of times, hoping to see something through the 
windowlets. Suddenly a man, tall, slow moving and bearded, 
wearing a shirt and wide brimmed hat-like the early photograph 
of Whitman-comes, from somewhere, and tells me, leaning on 
his iron bar, that he doesn't know who Whitman was, that he is 
Polish, that this house is his, and that he does not intend to show 
it to anyone. Then pulling himself up, he goes inside, through 
the little door that looks like a toy door.

Solitude and cold. A train goes by, into the wind. The sun, 
scarlet for an instant, dies behind the low woods, and in the 
swamp we walk past which is green and faintly blood colored, 
innumerable toads are croaking in the enormous silence.

from VISITING WALT: POEMS INSIRED BY THE LIFE AND WORK OF WALT WHITMAN. Eds. 
Sheila Cogill & Thom Tammaro. University of Iowa Press, 2003.

Bly has an informative three page intro to Jimenez, along with a sampling of 
his translations, in his new collection THE WINGED ENERGY OF DELIGHT: SELECTED 
TRANSLATIONS.


Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov  4 11:25:04 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:25:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jimenez
Message-ID: <s18a0393.050@mail.highland.edu>

Juan Ramon Jimenez's most famous work is the beloved Platero y Yo, a
lyrical novella about a man and his donkey. I grew up in Uruguay, and I
read the book with my fifth grade class. Probably it was what got me
started in poetry. 

Damn you, Jimenez!

(Those who like Jimenez's poetry (at least the more limpid variety as
has been posted here) should check out Alberto Caeiro's poems. He's an
even greater poet.)

Kent




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov  4 04:52:14 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 03:52:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
In-Reply-To: <012801c4c222$cb5e2d80$3a95c044@MULDER>
Message-ID: <BDAF57EE.7674%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Let the paranoid conspiracy theories begin! The Michael Moore election style
was so successful this year you want to use it again in ?08?




On 11/3/04 10:00 PM, "Daniel Zimmerman" <bardo at optonline.net> wrote:

> Minds? Viscera. 
> (In their guts, they didn't know he's nuts
> --or perhaps they do, and love it.)
>  
> Do you imagine that anything other than an elite rules America?
> Now we've got the ultimate elite: a president who takes his
> marching orders from "a higher Father." Does Moses
> Bush actually propose to lead us to the Promised Land?
> Moses, of course, as a murderer, couldn't enter Canaan;
> Bush, as a multiple felon, might have trouble, too (see
> Ramsay Clark's Articles of Impeachment).
>  
> About 29 million people 'voted' on touch screen machines
> that leave no paper trail and which hackers can rig without
> evidence of the rigging; Wally O'Dell, head of Ohio-based
> Diebold, a manufacturer of large numbers of such machines--
> the Ohio Bush campaign chief--vowed to do anything
> he could to deliver Ohio for the Resident. Doesn't that
> make your mind swoon and your gut gag simultaneously?
>  
> ~ Dan Zimmerman
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Lake <mailto:paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
>> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
>> <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 5:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day
>> 
>> On 11/3/04 11:14 AM, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Moral values and concerns were what was most on the minds of voters.
>> 
>> In a democracy the ?concerns . . . on the minds of the voters? determine who
>> gets elected.  
>> The alternative is rule by an elite.  Maybe next time a new set of moral
>> concerns will prevail. You don?t want to abolish voting, do you?
>> 
>> Paul Lake 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov  4 14:04:28 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:04:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
Message-ID: <s18a28fd.087@mail.highland.edu>

I had meant to say that Alberto Caeiro, for those who don't know, is one
of Fernando Pessoa's major heteronyms. Pessoa and his other heteronyms
considered Caeiro their "master."

There are various translations of Pessoa's work. Richard Zenith is
good, but the best translator of Pessoa et. al. is the indefatigable
Christopher Daniels, of San Francisco, one of the great living
translators, period. He's done most of FP's available poetry (much of
which is not available in English yet), including all three books of
Caeiro (The Keeper of Sheep is only one of them), a total of, I believe,
49 poems. But for legal reasons cannot yet release the work. What a
shame for poetry. 

Kent
*

I'd said:

(Those who like Jimenez's poetry (at least the more limpid variety as
has been posted here) should check out Alberto Caeiro's poems. He's an
even greater poet.)




From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  4 14:20:31 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:20:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
In-Reply-To: <s18a28fd.087@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <20041104192031.96742.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com>

I haven't read much Jiminez, but I am a fan of Antonio
Machado, one of my favorite poets.  I read recently
Unamuno's *Tragic Sense of Life*, as well.  As I am
getting ready to return to graduate school, I've been
reading more and more Spanish literature to
familiarize myself with it.  I want to make it a
secondary specialization.

Can anyone point me to some good books or websites
about that particular group of poets--that Generation
of 1927(?).

Thanks!

Jeff Newberry


--- Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

> I had meant to say that Alberto Caeiro, for those
> who don't know, is one
> of Fernando Pessoa's major heteronyms. Pessoa and
> his other heteronyms
> considered Caeiro their "master."
> 
> There are various translations of Pessoa's work.
> Richard Zenith is
> good, but the best translator of Pessoa et. al. is
> the indefatigable
> Christopher Daniels, of San Francisco, one of the
> great living
> translators, period. He's done most of FP's
> available poetry (much of
> which is not available in English yet), including
> all three books of
> Caeiro (The Keeper of Sheep is only one of them), a
> total of, I believe,
> 49 poems. But for legal reasons cannot yet release
> the work. What a
> shame for poetry. 
> 
> Kent
> *
> 
> I'd said:
> 
> (Those who like Jimenez's poetry (at least the more
> limpid variety as
> has been posted here) should check out Alberto
> Caeiro's poems. He's an
> even greater poet.)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From margpoet at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  4 15:04:21 2004
From: margpoet at earthlink.net (Margery Snyder)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:04:21 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] on translations
Message-ID: <200411042001.iA4K1tAk028335@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Anny just didn't quote my entire blog entry
(http://poetry.about.com/b/a/123743.htm) in her NewPoetry posting -a link
for readers to purchase 19 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei appears immediately
after the paragraph she reproduced.

 

I think JimF provided a link to the publisher's site
(http://www.moyerbellbooks.com/mbcatAUTHORSq-z.html#0918825148) in his
original post, if you'd rather buy it directly from them.

............................................
Margery Snyder
Poetry Guide
About-The Human Internet
http://poetry.about.com
............................................

 

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 05:57:08 -0700

From: James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] on translations

To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"

            <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Message-ID: <418A2724.A572C4B1 at earthlink.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 

And the lovely little book is available where?  How?

 

- Jim for James

 

> Anny Ballardini wrote:

> 

> Do we have a JforJames here? :-)

> 

> From Poetry About.com http://poetry.about.com/b/a/123743.htm?nl=1

> 

> Translation gives you a new perspective on poetry Robert Frost 

> famously said, _Poetry is what gets lost in translation._ But as 

> JforJames of the Newpoetry list recently reminded us, this idea is 

> given the lie in _a lovely little book called 19 Ways of Looking at 

> Wang Wei... nineteen different translations of a single poem (_Deer 

> Park_ or _Deer Enclosoure_) with comments on each version by Eliot 

> Weinberger and introduction contributed by the late great Octavio 

> Paz._ This small volume can be the source for endless meditations on 

> how words mean, how the lines of a poem convey beauty & truth, and 

> what happens in the translation from thought to poem.

> 

> Anny Ballardini

> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com <http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> 

> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather 

> admirers.

> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

 

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From MillB at aol.com  Thu Nov  4 16:32:09 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:32:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
Message-ID: <96.1944acca.2ebbf9d9@aol.com>

Jeff,
 
I wish you much luck in grad school!  
 
Mill
 
1) Pessoa is Portuguese.
 
2) 19th century Portuguese writers
 
Symbolist poets Camilo Pessanha (1867-1926); Eug?nio de Castro (1869-1944),  
author of Oaristos (1890); and Ant?nio Nobre (1867-1903); Almeida Garrett,  
Fernando Pessoa (1888-1935); Aquilino Ribeiro (1885-1960), a novelist; poet  
Teixeira de Pascoaes (1877-1952); the patriotic poet-historian Jaime Cortes?o  
(1884-1960).
 
3) 20th century
 
Miguel Torga (1907- ), author of a prose and verse Di?rio (Diary, since  
1941), a unique commentary on current events, Portugal, the Portuguese, and his  
own psyche; the storywriter Irene Lisboa (1892-1958), a masterful observer of  
pathetic, obscure lives; Ferreira de Castro (1898-1974), made famous by his  
novel The Jungle (1930; trans. 1930), about a Portuguese emigrant to Brazil; 
and  the subtle psychologist Jos? Rodrigues Migu?is (1901-80), author of A 
escola do  para?so (School of Paradise, 1960), a novel evoking the Lisbon of 1910.  

Jos? R?gio (1901-69) and Jos? Gaspar Sim?es (1903- ), editors of  Presen?a 
(Presence, 1927-40). The writers of this group engaged in social  realism, or 
neorealismo. This movement led to experimentation with new narrative  
techniques, particularly by the existentialist Verg?lio Ferreira (1916- ),  author of 
the novel Alegria breve (Short-Lived Joy, 1965), and Jos? Cardoso  Pires (1925- 
), who wrote the novel O h?spede de Job (Job's Guest, 1963).  

Baltasar Lopes (1904- ) and Manuel Lopes (1907- ); fiction on the  relations 
between blacks and whites in Angola, in such works as Terra morta  (Dead Land, 
1949), by Castro Soromenho (1910-68); and such lyric, increasingly  militant 
poems as those of Francisco Jos? Tenreiro (1921-63), from S?o Tom?, the  first 
Portuguese writer to espouse pride in African blackness.  

Surrealist and concretist experimentation brought to the fore such  
Portuguese poets as Jorge de Sena (1919-78), master of association of ideas and  images 
in both prose (Andan?as do dem?nio; The Demon Abroad, 1960 and 1967) and  
verse (Metamorfoses, 1963). To a lesser extent than in poetry, new viewpoints  
are revitalizing Portuguese fiction, not only through such foreign ideas as  
existentialism and structuralism but also through the emancipation of women, who  
make up half the literate population. Modern Portuguese women writers include 
 Agustina Bessa-Lu?s (1922- ), who traced the incommunicability and 
psychological  complexity of middle-class women in such novels as A sibila (The Sibyl, 
1953);  and poets such as the liberty-loving Sofia de Melo Breyner Andresen 
(1919- ). In  1972 Maria Isabel Barreno (1939- ), Maria Teresa Horta (1937- ), 
and Maria Velho  da Costa collaborated to produce a volume of essays, stories, 
and poetry,  subsequently published in the U.S. as The Three Marias; New 
Portuguese Letters  (1975). The work was inspired by a 17th-century classic, 
passionate  love letters attributed to a Portuguese nun, Marianna Alcoforado 
(1640-1723).  First published (1669) in French, they were issued in Portuguese in 
1819 and  translated into English as Letters from a Portuguese Nun in 1893. 
Because of its  feminist content, and some erotic passages, The Three Marias was 
banned and the  authors were put on trial, occasioning much international 
protest. When the new  Portuguese revolutionary government took over in 1974, the 
authors were pardoned  and the book released. 

(taken from a _http://www.terravista.pt/PortoSanto/1086/literature.html_ 
(http://www.terravista.pt/PortoSanto/1086/literature.html)  Portuguese  Literature 
web site)
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  4 16:43:40 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:43:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
In-Reply-To: <96.1944acca.2ebbf9d9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20041104214340.23131.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>


--- MillB at aol.com wrote:

> Jeff,
>  
> I wish you much luck in grad school!  
>  
> Mill
>  
> 1) Pessoa is Portuguese.

Oops . . .

Maybe I'm not grad school material ;-)~

Thanks for the info, Mill.

Jeff Newberry

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  4 17:05:02 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:05:02 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
Message-ID: <200411042145.iA4LjJZL047692@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Chris Daniels is a great translator of Pessoa (and others)....

Chris

----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
>Date: Thu, Nov 4, 2004, 11:04 AM
>

> I had meant to say that Alberto Caeiro, for those who don't know, is one
> of Fernando Pessoa's major heteronyms. Pessoa and his other heteronyms
> considered Caeiro their "master."
>
> There are various translations of Pessoa's work. Richard Zenith is
> good, but the best translator of Pessoa et. al. is the indefatigable
> Christopher Daniels, of San Francisco, one of the great living
> translators, period. He's done most of FP's available poetry (much of
> which is not available in English yet), including all three books of
> Caeiro (The Keeper of Sheep is only one of them), a total of, I believe,
> 49 poems. But for legal reasons cannot yet release the work. What a
> shame for poetry.
>
> Kent
> *
>
> I'd said:
>
> (Those who like Jimenez's poetry (at least the more limpid variety as
> has been posted here) should check out Alberto Caeiro's poems. He's an
> even greater poet.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov  4 17:13:55 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:13:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
Message-ID: <s18a5559.034@mail.highland.edu>

Chris S. said:

>Chris Daniels is a great translator of Pessoa (and others)....

Indeed. Chris D. is probably the leading translator of contemporary
Brazilian poetry in the U.S.  And you want to talk about a scene where
some amazing stuff is happening and where poetry is vida o muerte.
Brazil's where it's at.



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Nov  4 17:15:59 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:15:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
References: <s18a28fd.087@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <004201c4c2bb$dd1c2a60$29ad3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi Kent,

exactly 49. I have them all here in the original version translated into
Italian by Maria Jos? de Lancastre. As a matter of fact the one I have
should be the entire collection of Pessoa published by the (first?)
(second?) best publishing house in Italy: Adelphi (the other one is
Meridiani). About this edition, I have to mention that the curator is
Antonio Tabucchi, an excellent Italian author.

I was in Lisboa and I went all the way there to visit his house. He was into
astrology, did you know it? On the walls at the narrow entrance he drew some
charts and you have to climb up the steps and you enter these little very
respectable rooms. Then I had a coffee at one of the bars along the street
(you know, wooden tables, wooden chairs, mirrors, el diario, ...) and
imagined Pessoa going by every morning, and maybe stopping there, who knows?
That was in 1999.
Take care, anny
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:04 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro


> I had meant to say that Alberto Caeiro, for those who don't know, is one
> of Fernando Pessoa's major heteronyms. Pessoa and his other heteronyms
> considered Caeiro their "master."
>
> There are various translations of Pessoa's work. Richard Zenith is
> good, but the best translator of Pessoa et. al. is the indefatigable
> Christopher Daniels, of San Francisco, one of the great living
> translators, period. He's done most of FP's available poetry (much of
> which is not available in English yet), including all three books of
> Caeiro (The Keeper of Sheep is only one of them), a total of, I believe,
> 49 poems. But for legal reasons cannot yet release the work. What a
> shame for poetry.
>
> Kent
> *
>
> I'd said:
>
> (Those who like Jimenez's poetry (at least the more limpid variety as
> has been posted here) should check out Alberto Caeiro's poems. He's an
> even greater poet.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jsafdie at comcast.net  Fri Nov  5 00:05:05 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:05:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
References: <s18a5559.034@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <018601c4c2f5$03f80b20$56001118@D6T95L21>

It's never pleasant to date one's self (is that true? As in the well-known 
qualifier "I'm dating myself here, but . . ."?)

Whatever . . . it's in the nature of a confession that my first experience 
with Pessoa was in the anthology *Another Republic* (1976), edited by 
Charles Simic and Mark Strand, from Ecco Press; the subtitle was "17 
European and South American Writers." In those pages I had my first 
acquaintance with a poem that was to become iconic for me, Pessoa's "The 
Tobacco Shop" (translated by Edwin Honig).

Allow me to quote a few lines:

But the Tobacco Shop Owner has come to the door and stands there.
I look at him, straining my half-turned neck,
Straining my half-blind soul.
He'll die and so will I.
He'll leave his signboard, I'll leave poems.
Then after a while his signboard will perish, and so will my poems.
A little later the street will die where his signboard hung,
And so will the language my poems were written in.
Then the spinning planet will die where all this happened.
In other satellites in other systems something like people
Will go on making things like poems and living under things like signboards,
always one thing standing against another,
always one thing as useless as another,
always the impossible thing as stupid as the real thing,
always the fundamental mystery as certain as the sleeping surface mystery,
always this thing or that, or neither one nor the other.

If residents of this list have no acquaintance with this amazing poem, I 
recommend it highly. I've found that re-reading it has provided substantial 
post-election therapy.

It was also interesting, once I plucked this volume from my shelves, to 
re-read the introduction by the editors. They divided these 17 poets into 
two "schools," the mythological and the historical. To the first group, they 
assigned Michaux, Ponge, Popa, Cortazar, Calvino and Paz; to the second, 
Amichai, Bobrowski, Celan, Herbert, Holub, Milosz, and Ritsos.

Whether or not these categorizations are accurate isn't my concern. What was 
more interesting to me was that Mr. Strand, in a review of a recent edition 
of Pablo Neruda's Collected Poems in the *New Yorker*, was very dismissive 
of Neruda's expressly political poems, like "Canto General." He should have 
remembered that he at one time he saw political and historical poems as a 
valuable contribution to the overall art.

As, citizens, should we . . .

Joe Safdie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 2:13 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro


> Chris S. said:
>
>>Chris Daniels is a great translator of Pessoa (and others)....
>
> Indeed. Chris D. is probably the leading translator of contemporary
> Brazilian poetry in the U.S.  And you want to talk about a scene where
> some amazing stuff is happening and where poetry is vida o muerte.
> Brazil's where it's at.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov  5 00:21:19 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:21:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Republic
In-Reply-To: <018601c4c2f5$03f80b20$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <BDB068A9.CADD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A big amen for *Another Republic*, one of the real thunderbolts in my life,
too.  Holds up amazingly well after all these years, doesn't it?

It was my first exposure to a number of poets, as I recall:  Pessoa,
Zbigniew Herbert, Yehuda Amichai, Nicanor Parra, Miroslav Holub, and Carlos
Drummond de Andrade.

And it includes some of my very favorites, including Jean Follain in W. S.
Merwin's versions. 

Here's one of Strand's versions of Carlos Drummond de Andrade:

DON'T KILL YOURSELF


Carlos, calm down, love
is what you are seeing:
a kiss today, tomorrow no kiss,
the day after tomorrow is Sunday
and nobody knows what will happen
on Monday.

It's useless to resist
or to commit suicide.
Don't kill yourself.  Don't kill yourself.
Save all of yourself for the wedding
though nobody knows whenor if
it will ever come.

Carlos, earthy Carlos, love
spent the night with you
and your deepeest self
is raising a terrible racket,
prayers,
stereos*,
saints in procession,
adds for the best soap,
a racket for which nobody knows
the why or wherefor.

Meanwhile, you walk
upright, unhappy.
You are the palm tree, you are the shout
that nobody heard in the theater
and all the lights went out.
Love in darkness, no, in daylight,
is always sad, Carlos, my boy,
don't tell anyone,
nobody knows or will know.

--Carlos Drummond de Andrade, trans. fr. the Portugese by
   Mark Strand




on 11/4/04 11:05 PM, Joe Safdie at jsafdie at comcast.net wrote:

> It's never pleasant to date one's self (is that true? As in the well-known
> qualifier "I'm dating myself here, but . . ."?)
> 
> Whatever . . . it's in the nature of a confession that my first experience
> with Pessoa was in the anthology *Another Republic* (1976), edited by
> Charles Simic and Mark Strand, from Ecco Press; the subtitle was "17
> European and South American Writers." In those pages I had my first
> acquaintance with a poem that was to become iconic for me, Pessoa's "The
> Tobacco Shop" (translated by Edwin Honig).
> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov  5 08:18:28 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:18:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Republic/Pessoa
Message-ID: <s18b2964.039@mail.highland.edu>

Joe, Anny, David, all, 

Another Republic was a mind blowing book for me, too. I remember
exactly where I first read it and how I felt as I did. It was in 1981.
There should be a re-issue of that book. (There should also be a
re-issue of Michael Benedikt's The International Prose Poem Anthology, a
seminal one!)

Anny, that's great about the complete Caeiro. Viva Italia! But now I'm
not so sure about what I said previously-- maybe Zenith or someone has
recently come out with all the Caeiro ouvre, which Chris Daniels has
also done, faithfully adhering to Pessoa's isntructions as to how the
books should be divided. I'll have to check. But Daniels has the most
complete Pessoa poetry en ingles (FP wrote loads of prose, too,
including The Book of Disquietude, by his semi-heteronym, Bernardo
Soares, which is probably how FP is best known in English so far),
including stuff by other heteronyms never before Englished. I have the
mansucript, and it is magical and thrilling.

But there is no "complete" Pessoa yet, so far as I know. There's still
stuff being edited out of the black trunk In Lisbon, and some hasn't
even been officially published in Portuguese!

I've said for quite some time, in various venues, that Pessoa's gesture
holds out a whole new dimension of possibilities for American poets. Our
traditional and avant-garde poets alike continue to pursue *one model*
of Authorship as if it were the only way--as if poetry didn't beckon us
into spaces (and times) beyond our safe and legal identities.

Kent




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri Nov  5 11:07:21 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 11:07:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
In-Reply-To: <018601c4c2f5$03f80b20$56001118@D6T95L21>
References: <s18a5559.034@mail.highland.edu>
	<018601c4c2f5$03f80b20$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411051104420.22445@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I have just ordered a used copy of this book (Another Empire).

I am thrilled to be introduced to Pessoa during the week of otherwise
misery.  I also ordered his selected, tr. by Zenith.  How does one find
translations by Daniels?

It is has been a good week for poets - having also been introduced, via
Wom-Po list, to Gwendolyn MacEwen, to my mind an extraordinary poet.



On
Thu, 4 Nov 2004, Joe Safdie wrote:

> It's never pleasant to date one's self (is that true? As in the well-known
> qualifier "I'm dating myself here, but . . ."?)
>
> Whatever . . . it's in the nature of a confession that my first experience
> with Pessoa was in the anthology *Another Republic* (1976), edited by
> Charles Simic and Mark Strand, from Ecco Press; the subtitle was "17
> European and South American Writers." In those pages I had my first
> acquaintance with a poem that was to become iconic for me, Pessoa's "The
> Tobacco Shop" (translated by Edwin Honig).
>
> Allow me to quote a few lines:
>
> But the Tobacco Shop Owner has come to the door and stands there.
> I look at him, straining my half-turned neck,
> Straining my half-blind soul.
> He'll die and so will I.
> He'll leave his signboard, I'll leave poems.
> Then after a while his signboard will perish, and so will my poems.
> A little later the street will die where his signboard hung,
> And so will the language my poems were written in.
> Then the spinning planet will die where all this happened.
> In other satellites in other systems something like people
> Will go on making things like poems and living under things like signboards,
> always one thing standing against another,
> always one thing as useless as another,
> always the impossible thing as stupid as the real thing,
> always the fundamental mystery as certain as the sleeping surface mystery,
> always this thing or that, or neither one nor the other.
>
> If residents of this list have no acquaintance with this amazing poem, I
> recommend it highly. I've found that re-reading it has provided substantial
> post-election therapy.
>
> It was also interesting, once I plucked this volume from my shelves, to
> re-read the introduction by the editors. They divided these 17 poets into
> two "schools," the mythological and the historical. To the first group, they
> assigned Michaux, Ponge, Popa, Cortazar, Calvino and Paz; to the second,
> Amichai, Bobrowski, Celan, Herbert, Holub, Milosz, and Ritsos.
>
> Whether or not these categorizations are accurate isn't my concern. What was
> more interesting to me was that Mr. Strand, in a review of a recent edition
> of Pablo Neruda's Collected Poems in the *New Yorker*, was very dismissive
> of Neruda's expressly political poems, like "Canto General." He should have
> remembered that he at one time he saw political and historical poems as a
> valuable contribution to the overall art.
>
> As, citizens, should we . . .
>
> Joe Safdie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 2:13 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Caeiro
>
>
> > Chris S. said:
> >
> >>Chris Daniels is a great translator of Pessoa (and others)....
> >
> > Indeed. Chris D. is probably the leading translator of contemporary
> > Brazilian poetry in the U.S.  And you want to talk about a scene where
> > some amazing stuff is happening and where poetry is vida o muerte.
> > Brazil's where it's at.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Fri Nov  5 19:33:18 2004
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:33:18 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Republic/Pessoa
Message-ID: <BAY16-F39bWKEVqr4YF0003e525@hotmail.com>

kent,

i think it might well be the case that in this age, people might be hiding 
behind identities without anyone knowing.  it is quite easy to set up email 
accounts, blogs, etc.  and taking identities just like that.

i'm sure it is happening, maybe even a widepread phenomenon!  ;)

J


>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
><new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Republic/Pessoa
>Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:18:28 -0600
>
>Joe, Anny, David, all,
>
>Another Republic was a mind blowing book for me, too. I remember
>exactly where I first read it and how I felt as I did. It was in 1981.
>There should be a re-issue of that book. (There should also be a
>re-issue of Michael Benedikt's The International Prose Poem Anthology, a
>seminal one!)
>
>Anny, that's great about the complete Caeiro. Viva Italia! But now I'm
>not so sure about what I said previously-- maybe Zenith or someone has
>recently come out with all the Caeiro ouvre, which Chris Daniels has
>also done, faithfully adhering to Pessoa's isntructions as to how the
>books should be divided. I'll have to check. But Daniels has the most
>complete Pessoa poetry en ingles (FP wrote loads of prose, too,
>including The Book of Disquietude, by his semi-heteronym, Bernardo
>Soares, which is probably how FP is best known in English so far),
>including stuff by other heteronyms never before Englished. I have the
>mansucript, and it is magical and thrilling.
>
>But there is no "complete" Pessoa yet, so far as I know. There's still
>stuff being edited out of the black trunk In Lisbon, and some hasn't
>even been officially published in Portuguese!
>
>I've said for quite some time, in various venues, that Pessoa's gesture
>holds out a whole new dimension of possibilities for American poets. Our
>traditional and avant-garde poets alike continue to pursue *one model*
>of Authorship as if it were the only way--as if poetry didn't beckon us
>into spaces (and times) beyond our safe and legal identities.
>
>Kent
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_________________________________________________________________
Watch movie trailers online with the Xtra Broadband Channel  
http://xtra.co.nz/broadband



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov  5 21:03:52 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 20:03:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Another Republic
Message-ID: <s18bdcbb.056@mail.highland.edu>

Hi JT,

I'm sure it is the case, as you say. 

But I'm not talking about the easy hiding on the web...

Kent

*

jt said:

i think it might well be the case that in this age, people might be
hiding 
behind identities without anyone knowing.  it is quite easy to set up
email 
accounts, blogs, etc.  and taking identities just like that.

i'm sure it is happening, maybe even a widepread phenomenon!  ;)



From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Fri Nov  5 22:06:30 2004
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 03:06:30 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Another Republic
Message-ID: <BAY16-F30pcXCXWtjik00001982@hotmail.com>

kent,

yes, but maybe the next age in books will take the face of the internet! the 
internet  is a place to publish for some..and is also sure to influence the 
way writers think and write.

thanks for the discussion on pessoa.  for some reason i like the way he was 
able to dis-engage some part of his personality, and make up new ones much 
like one is able to become another by filtering out or adding to his own 
personality.


regards

J


>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>Reply-To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
><new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Another Republic
>Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 20:03:52 -0600
>
>Hi JT,
>
>I'm sure it is the case, as you say.
>
>But I'm not talking about the easy hiding on the web...
>
>Kent
>
>*
>
>jt said:
>
>i think it might well be the case that in this age, people might be
>hiding
>behind identities without anyone knowing.  it is quite easy to set up
>email
>accounts, blogs, etc.  and taking identities just like that.
>
>i'm sure it is happening, maybe even a widepread phenomenon!  ;)
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_________________________________________________________________
Listen to music online with the Xtra Broadband Channel  
http://xtra.co.nz/broadband



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov  6 12:58:08 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:58:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
Message-ID: <190.325827e1.2ebe6ab0@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/3/2004 11:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bardo at optonline.net writes:

> About 29 million people 'voted' on touch screen machines
>  that leave no paper trail and which hackers can rig without
>  evidence of the rigging; Wally O'Dell, head of Ohio-based
>  Diebold, a manufacturer of large numbers of such machines--
>  the Ohio Bush campaign chief--vowed to do anything
> 

This makes for a nice conspiracy theory...but its probably
news to the computer world that systems can't be audited.
Transactions and altered code do leave behind traces. I don't 
believe these systems are any more vulnerable to election rigging
than paper ballots. I'm sure the mechanical voting machines,
which we still use in my precinct, met with similar suspicion
when first introduced.  A black box with a screen or a black box 
with levers or a black box with a slot on top is a black box.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov  6 13:34:21 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:34:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Another Republic
Message-ID: <25.51c2ba78.2ebe732d@aol.com>

selections from... 
 _Always Astonished_, the selected prose of Fernando Pessoa, 
translated by Edwin Honig. A collection of mostly short entries 
on this & that subject related to poetry, art, & Pessoa's personal 
(if not all of the various & sundry Pessoas') philosophy.


"I was a poet animated by philosophy, not a philosopher
with poetic faculties. I loved to admire the beauty of things,
to trace the imperceptible through the minute the poetic
soul of the universe." [Autobiographic Notes, 1. The earliest
literary food]

"Art, fully defined, is the harmonic expression of our 
consciousness of sensations, that is to say, our sensations
must be so expressed that they create an object which
will be a sensation to others. Art is not, as Bacon said,
'man added to Nature'; it is sensation multiplied by
consciousness--multiplied, be it well noted." [On Sensationism,
2. Letter to an English Editor]

"Lucidity should only reach the threshold of the soul. In the
very antechambers of feeling it is forbidden to be explicit"
-&-
"Substitute yourself always. You are not enough for yourself.
Be unpredictable always for yourself. Let yourself happen
before yourself. Let your sensations be purely accidental, 
adventures that happen to you. You must be a universe
without laws in order to be superior." [On Sensationism,
5 To feel is to create]

"A great emotion is too selfish. It takes into itself all the
blood of the spirit, and the congestion leaves the hands too
cold to write. Three sorts of emotions produce great poetry--
strong but quick emotions, seized upon for art as soon as
they have passed, but not before they have passed; strong
and deep emotions in their remembrance a long time after;
and false emotions, that is to say, emotions felt in the 
intellect. Not insincerity, yet a translated sincerity, is the
basis of all art." [Literature and the Artist, 8. The Artist
and Emotion]

"I am always astonished when I finish anything. Astonished
and depressed. My instinct for perfection should inhibit me
until I get started. But I distract myself and do it. What I
achieve is a product in me, not by applying my will but by
giving into it. I begin because I'm not motivated to think; I
conclude because I haven't the nerve to leave off. The book
is my act of cowardice." [Always Astonished: A Journal,
21. Always astonished]

---
http://www.citylights.com/pub/catalog/BCalways.html
City Lights Books, 800-274-7826

Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov  6 13:38:32 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:38:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRVING FELDMAN: COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004
Message-ID: <1da.2ec4f390.2ebe7428@aol.com>

Irving Feldman is a master chronicler of our collective experience and an 
overlooked treasure of American poetry. With our country's troops in combat, this 
poem, from his new COLLECTED POEMS: 1954-2004, seems particularly resonant. 
***************************************

 
The Biographies of Solitude

Blue the hills, red the fields,
where the kisses and blows were dealt...
How eager they were, marching away,
enlistees in the horde of love.
Farewell the sweethearts
-they never came back.
Welcome, sisters of solitude.
And who will say these lives have been?

Solitude has no biographers.

Nonetheless, hands move across the pages.
Nonetheless, empty pages go from hand to hand.
Nonetheless, papers blow over the landscape
of magical names, the beautiful promises.

One in in snowy Idaho, raging.
One in California sits before her mirror, 
considering death.
One takes hot baths in Tennessee, 
to calm herself, calm herself down.
In Kansas one scribbles madly.
One walks in a daze in the crowds
on Forty-second Street, barefoot,
her feet bruised, day after day.
In the hospital of the wind.

What the flood has spared is given
into the keeping of the whirlwind.

Day after day the wind
numbering the losses...
"From now on I will love only myself."
"I no longer try to make sense to people."
"It's all a game anyway."
"Back then I still had my ideals.
No sacrifice was too much for me.
I was strong. I felt everything."
"I don't even pity myself anymore."

They bite their lips.
Shrug their shoulders.

"What is there left to protect?"
"Who can you trust?"

How America is immense and filled with solitudes!

  
 
*************************************** 
>From IRVING FELDMAN: COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004 by Irving Feldman ? 2004. 
Excerpted by permission of Schocken Books, a division of Random House, Inc. All 
rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without 
permission in writing from the publisher. 

***************************************

Related links:

 About Irving Feldman:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhUp0DXKYc0Wa0ago0Ag 

Order a copy of COLLECTED POEMS: 1954-2004 online:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhUp0DXKYc0Wa0agp0Ah 

 Download a FREE broadside of another Feldman poem:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhUp0DXKYc0Wa0agq0Ai 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov  6 14:34:10 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:34:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?November_=40_Poets_House=A0?=
Message-ID: <e5.5d17b28.2ebe8132@aol.com>

Subj:   November @ Poets House? 
Date:   10/28/2004 9:42:25 PM Eastern Standard Time 
From:   announce at poetshouse.org 
Coming Up @ Poets House


11/2 -- Application Deadline Extended: Marjorie Welish Master Class
11/4 -- Panel Discussion on Laura (Riding) Jackson 
11/6 -- Children's Event: Reading/Watercolor workshop with Beverly Brodsky 
* 11/6 -- The Amy Bartlett Memorial has been rescheduled: Date TBA *
11/9 -- Nicole Brossard in Conversation with Mary Ann Caws
11/12 -- Black Serial Poetics with Nathaniel Mackey & Ed Roberson 
11/18? -- Passwords: Tom Sleigh on Thom Gunn
11/20 -- Children's Event: Words Without Borders Reading
12/2 -- Queer Invention: Writers & Artists Re-Imag(in)e Identity
12/4 --? Children's Event: The Wind In Your Hand with Richard Lewis
12/8 -- Application Deadline: Ron Padgett Master Class
12/9-12/14 -- Annual Holiday Book Sale

Other Events/Space Rental
11/11 -- Melville House Book Party for Colette Inez

_______________________________________________________

Application Deadline Extended to Tuesday, November 2
Master Class with Marjorie Welish
Saturday, December 11, 1:30-5:30pm
Sunday, December 12, 1:30-5:30pm 
$250, Space is limited

This class will focus on developing critical skills, with attention paid to
polished work and work in progress.

** Applications consist of three poems. No names on the poems, please.
A cover sheet with only the applicant's name, address, email and phone
numbers should accompany the poems. 
Mail to: Poets House, 72 Spring St., 2nd Fl., New York, NY 10012

You may also email it to: stephen at poetshouse.org
(Please do not email your work as an attachment. Simply include your poems
and contact info in the body of the plain text message.)

_______________________________________________________

Laura (Riding) Jackson: A Panel Discussion
with Laurel Blossom, Forrest Gander, 
Elizabeth Friedmann & Lisa Samuels
Thursday, November 4, 7pm
$7, Free for Members

Poets and scholars gather to examine the work of Laura (Riding) Jackson
(1901-1991). A prolific poet who published her Collected Poems at age 37
and renounced poetry one year later, Laura (Riding) Jackson continued to
explore the relationship between truth and language in such prose works as
Rational Meaning: A New Foundation for the Definition of Words. 

_______________________________________________________


Children's Room Event:
The Spirit of the Buffalo 
A reading and watercolor workshop with Beverly Brodsky
Saturday, November 6, 11am
Free 

Author and artist Beverly Brodsky leads a demonstration and workshop on the
magic that can be created with watercolors. She will also read poems from
her new children's book Buffalo. 

Beverly Brodsky is the recipient of the Caldecott Medal for Illustration
and her work has been exhibited at the Whitney and the Jewish Museum.

_______________________________________________________
? ?? 
Nicole Brossard in Conversation with Mary Ann Caws
Tuesday, November 9, 7pm
$7, Free for Members & CUNY faculty and students

Scholar, translator and editor Mary Ann Caws talks with Nicole Brossard, a
leading figure of Qu?bec post-modernist and feminist writing.

Co-sponsored with The Center for the Humanities at the Graduate Center of
the City University of New York (CUNY) & Belladonna, a reading,
publication, and conversation series investigating feminist experimental
poetics. Funded in part by the New York Council for the Humanities.

_______________________________________________________

Black Serial Poetics: 
A Conversation & Reading with Nathaniel Mackey & Ed Roberson
Introduced by Brent Hayes Edwards
Friday, November 12, 7pm
$7, Free for Members

Poets Nathaniel Mackey and Ed Roberson read and discuss issues of
innovation and serial poetics, poetic precursors (from Robert Duncan to
Amiri Baraka) and other formal influences, such as Black music. 

Co-sponsored by the Center for the Critical Analysis of Contemporary
Culture, Rutgers University.
? 
_______________________________________________________

Passwords: 
Tom Sleigh on Thom Gunn's Re-invention of Love Poetry
Thursday, November 18, 7pm
$7, Free for Members 

Poet Tom Sleigh discusses the poetry of Thom Gunn (1929-2004) as an
experiment in the conventions of courtly and not-so-courtly love. Gunn
published more than thirty books of poetry, including Boss Cupid and
Collected Poems, and several collections of essays, including The Occasions
of Poetry.
? 
_______________________________________________________

Children's Event:
Words Without Borders: 
A Reading of International Children's Literature
Saturday, November 20, 4pm
Free for children under 5; $5 for children over 5; $10 for adults

A benefit for Words Without Borders, this event features a reading of the
best in children's literature from around the world by acclaimed actors.
$10 for adults, $5 for children, children under 5 free.

All proceeds will benefit Words Without Borders, an organization dedicated
to improving international communication through translation. For more
information, please visit www.wordswithoutborders.org.

_______________________________________________________

Queer Invention: Writers & Artists Re-Imag(in)e Identity
At the CUNY Graduate Center
Elebash Recital Hall, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th St.
Thursday, December 2, 7pm
Free

Moderated by Ronaldo Wilson, with Kathy High, Shelley Jackson, D.A. Powell
& Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick

Writers and artists present video art, web art, poetry and theory that
radically reinterprets sexual identity and the self.

Co-sponsored by The Center for the Humanities, The Center for the Study of
Women and Society, and The Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies at the
Graduate Center for the City University of New York. Funded in part by the
New York Council for the Humanities.

_______________________________________________________

Children's Event:
The Wind In Your Hand:
And Other Secrets of a Winter's Day with Richard Lewis
Saturday, December 4, 11am 
Free 

Poems by those who love the hidden worlds of winter with its mysteries of
wind and snow and frozen waters. We will share these poems--as well as make
our own small book of poems--celebrating the invisibilities and secrets of
a winter's day.

_______________________________________________________

Application Deadline: December 8? ? 
Master Class with Ron Padgett
Saturday & Sunday, Jan. 29-30, 1:30-5:30pm
$250, Space is limited

In this two-day class, Ron Padgett will emphasize the writing of new work.

** Please see above application procedure for Marjorie Welish's Master Class

_______________________________________________________

HOLIDAY BOOK SALE
Thursday, December 9, 11-7pm
Friday, December 10, 11-7pm
Saturday, December 11, 11-4pm
Tuesday, December 14, 11-7pm
Private Sale for Members: Wednesday, December 8, 4-8pm

Thousands of books at bargain prices! Almost brand new books $5 & up. All
books are duplicate copies from our 45,000-volume (and growing) collection
& all proceeds benefit the library.

_______________________________________________________

And Don't Miss These Other Events of Interest
_______________________________________________________

Spinoza Doesn't Live Here Anymore: Poems by Colette Inez
Reading and book party
Presented by Melville House Publishing
Thursday, November 11, 7pm
Free

Colette Inez will be reading from her newest collection of poetry, Spinoza
Doesn't Live Here Anymore (Melville House). She is the author of several
other collections, including The Woman Who Loved Words, Clemency, and
Getting Under Way: New and Selected Poems. She is the recipient of the
Pushcart Prize and awards from the Guggenheim Foundation, National
Endowment for the Arts, and the Rockefeller Foundation. She is a professor
of poetry at Columbia University. 


For more information about sponsoring an event at Poets House under a
special rental agreement, email Mike Romanos, mike at poetshouse.org

_________________________________________________________

Poets House is a literary center and poetry archive -- a collection and
meeting place that invites poets and the public to step into the living
tradition of poetry. Our 45,000 volumes of books, journals, chapbooks,
audiotapes, videos and electronic media is the most comprehensive
open-access collection of poetry in the United States.

The Reading Room is free and open to the public
Tuesday-Friday, 11-7pm & Saturday 11-4pm.
The Children's Reading Room is open Saturday 11-1pm.

Please call (212) 431-7920 or visit our website
http://www.poetshouse.org for more information & for holiday closings.
? 
Poets House
72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY? 10012
_________________________________________________________

To unsubscribe from the Poets House mailing list please email
remove at poetshouse.org and specify "Remove" in the subject line.

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov  6 14:40:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:40:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <190.325827e1.2ebe6ab0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <016d01c4c438$69095b10$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In my part of Florida exit polls had Warren G. Harding the winner by a margin of 72% but the computers didn't give him one vote!  Explain THAT!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 12:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day


  In a message dated 11/3/2004 11:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes:


    About 29 million people 'voted' on touch screen machines
    that leave no paper trail and which hackers can rig without
    evidence of the rigging; Wally O'Dell, head of Ohio-based
    Diebold, a manufacturer of large numbers of such machines--
    the Ohio Bush campaign chief--vowed to do anything



  This makes for a nice conspiracy theory...but its probably
  news to the computer world that systems can't be audited.
  Transactions and altered code do leave behind traces. I don't 
  believe these systems are any more vulnerable to election rigging
  than paper ballots. I'm sure the mechanical voting machines,
  which we still use in my precinct, met with similar suspicion
  when first introduced.  A black box with a screen or a black box 
  with levers or a black box with a slot on top is a black box.
  Finnegan



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Nov  6 15:47:06 2004
From: hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk (gbemi tijani-mst)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:47:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 18
In-Reply-To: <200411061931.iA6JVfAn007920@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20041106204706.18446.qmail@web26005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

dear sir
Thanks for the great artistic-poetic post .I enjoyed npd,vol5,issue 18 immensely...It enriches reader-poet 's psycho -biology of the  writing process & especially the tremendous emotions that provoke poetry -serious or salacious,protest or panageric...Kudos  for  a  50-yr collection of poems by erudite, venerable poet - Thom Gunn..i wish i can lay hold of the book it would be interesting to watch  how it would productively,poetically inevitablly  inur or grip me!  ...It is heartening to discover your c reative praxies via the newsletter...Surely your stuff  should be perenated for homo concors-or Homo fabers?
With Great delight
Gbemi tijani-mst

new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: words for the day (JforJames at aol.com)
2. Re: Pessoa/Another Republic (JforJames at aol.com)
3. IRVING FELDMAN: COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004 (JforJames at aol.com)
4. November @ Poets House? (JforJames at aol.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:58:08 EST
From: JforJames at aol.com
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <190.325827e1.2ebe6ab0 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In a message dated 11/3/2004 11:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bardo at optonline.net writes:

> About 29 million people 'voted' on touch screen machines
> that leave no paper trail and which hackers can rig without
> evidence of the rigging; Wally O'Dell, head of Ohio-based
> Diebold, a manufacturer of large numbers of such machines--
> the Ohio Bush campaign chief--vowed to do anything
> 

This makes for a nice conspiracy theory...but its probably
news to the computer world that systems can't be audited.
Transactions and altered code do leave behind traces. I don't 
believe these systems are any more vulnerable to election rigging
than paper ballots. I'm sure the mechanical voting machines,
which we still use in my precinct, met with similar suspicion
when first introduced. A black box with a screen or a black box 
with levers or a black box with a slot on top is a black box.
Finnegan
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:34:21 EST
From: JforJames at aol.com
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Another Republic
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <25.51c2ba78.2ebe732d at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

selections from... 
_Always Astonished_, the selected prose of Fernando Pessoa, 
translated by Edwin Honig. A collection of mostly short entries 
on this & that subject related to poetry, art, & Pessoa's personal 
(if not all of the various & sundry Pessoas') philosophy.


"I was a poet animated by philosophy, not a philosopher
with poetic faculties. I loved to admire the beauty of things,
to trace the imperceptible through the minute the poetic
soul of the universe." [Autobiographic Notes, 1. The earliest
literary food]

"Art, fully defined, is the harmonic expression of our 
consciousness of sensations, that is to say, our sensations
must be so expressed that they create an object which
will be a sensation to others. Art is not, as Bacon said,
'man added to Nature'; it is sensation multiplied by
consciousness--multiplied, be it well noted." [On Sensationism,
2. Letter to an English Editor]

"Lucidity should only reach the threshold of the soul. In the
very antechambers of feeling it is forbidden to be explicit"
-&-
"Substitute yourself always. You are not enough for yourself.
Be unpredictable always for yourself. Let yourself happen
before yourself. Let your sensations be purely accidental, 
adventures that happen to you. You must be a universe
without laws in order to be superior." [On Sensationism,
5 To feel is to create]

"A great emotion is too selfish. It takes into itself all the
blood of the spirit, and the congestion leaves the hands too
cold to write. Three sorts of emotions produce great poetry--
strong but quick emotions, seized upon for art as soon as
they have passed, but not before they have passed; strong
and deep emotions in their remembrance a long time after;
and false emotions, that is to say, emotions felt in the 
intellect. Not insincerity, yet a translated sincerity, is the
basis of all art." [Literature and the Artist, 8. The Artist
and Emotion]

"I am always astonished when I finish anything. Astonished
and depressed. My instinct for perfection should inhibit me
until I get started. But I distract myself and do it. What I
achieve is a product in me, not by applying my will but by
giving into it. I begin because I'm not motivated to think; I
conclude because I haven't the nerve to leave off. The book
is my act of cowardice." [Always Astonished: A Journal,
21. Always astonished]

---
http://www.citylights.com/pub/catalog/BCalways.html
City Lights Books, 800-274-7826

Finnegan
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:38:32 EST
From: JforJames at aol.com
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRVING FELDMAN: COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <1da.2ec4f390.2ebe7428 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Irving Feldman is a master chronicler of our collective experience and an 
overlooked treasure of American poetry. With our country's troops in combat, this 
poem, from his new COLLECTED POEMS: 1954-2004, seems particularly resonant. 
***************************************


The Biographies of Solitude

Blue the hills, red the fields,
where the kisses and blows were dealt...
How eager they were, marching away,
enlistees in the horde of love.
Farewell the sweethearts
-they never came back.
Welcome, sisters of solitude.
And who will say these lives have been?

Solitude has no biographers.

Nonetheless, hands move across the pages.
Nonetheless, empty pages go from hand to hand.
Nonetheless, papers blow over the landscape
of magical names, the beautiful promises.

One in in snowy Idaho, raging.
One in California sits before her mirror, 
considering death.
One takes hot baths in Tennessee, 
to calm herself, calm herself down.
In Kansas one scribbles madly.
One walks in a daze in the crowds
on Forty-second Street, barefoot,
her feet bruised, day after day.
In the hospital of the wind.

What the flood has spared is given
into the keeping of the whirlwind.

Day after day the wind
numbering the losses...
"From now on I will love only myself."
"I no longer try to make sense to people."
"It's all a game anyway."
"Back then I still had my ideals.
No sacrifice was too much for me.
I was strong. I felt everything."
"I don't even pity myself anymore."

They bite their lips.
Shrug their shoulders.

"What is there left to protect?"
"Who can you trust?"

How America is immense and filled with solitudes!



*************************************** 
>From IRVING FELDMAN: COLLECTED POEMS 1954-2004 by Irving Feldman ? 2004. 
Excerpted by permission of Schocken Books, a division of Random House, Inc. All 
rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without 
permission in writing from the publisher. 

***************************************

Related links:

About Irving Feldman:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhUp0DXKYc0Wa0ago0Ag 

Order a copy of COLLECTED POEMS: 1954-2004 online:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhUp0DXKYc0Wa0agp0Ah 

Download a FREE broadside of another Feldman poem:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhUp0DXKYc0Wa0agq0Ai 
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:34:10 EST
From: JforJames at aol.com
Subject: [New-Poetry] November @ Poets House?
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Subj: November @ Poets House  
Date: 10/28/2004 9:42:25 PM Eastern Standard Time 
From: announce at poetshouse.org 
Coming Up @ Poets House


11/2 -- Application Deadline Extended: Marjorie Welish Master Class
11/4 -- Panel Discussion on Laura (Riding) Jackson 
11/6 -- Children's Event: Reading/Watercolor workshop with Beverly Brodsky 
* 11/6 -- The Amy Bartlett Memorial has been rescheduled: Date TBA *
11/9 -- Nicole Brossard in Conversation with Mary Ann Caws
11/12 -- Black Serial Poetics with Nathaniel Mackey & Ed Roberson 
11/18  -- Passwords: Tom Sleigh on Thom Gunn
11/20 -- Children's Event: Words Without Borders Reading
12/2 -- Queer Invention: Writers & Artists Re-Imag(in)e Identity
12/4 --  Children's Event: The Wind In Your Hand with Richard Lewis
12/8 -- Application Deadline: Ron Padgett Master Class
12/9-12/14 -- Annual Holiday Book Sale

Other Events/Space Rental
11/11 -- Melville House Book Party for Colette Inez

_______________________________________________________

Application Deadline Extended to Tuesday, November 2
Master Class with Marjorie Welish
Saturday, December 11, 1:30-5:30pm
Sunday, December 12, 1:30-5:30pm 
$250, Space is limited

This class will focus on developing critical skills, with attention paid to
polished work and work in progress.

** Applications consist of three poems. No names on the poems, please.
A cover sheet with only the applicant's name, address, email and phone
numbers should accompany the poems. 
Mail to: Poets House, 72 Spring St., 2nd Fl., New York, NY 10012

You may also email it to: stephen at poetshouse.org
(Please do not email your work as an attachment. Simply include your poems
and contact info in the body of the plain text message.)

_______________________________________________________

Laura (Riding) Jackson: A Panel Discussion
with Laurel Blossom, Forrest Gander, 
Elizabeth Friedmann & Lisa Samuels
Thursday, November 4, 7pm
$7, Free for Members

Poets and scholars gather to examine the work of Laura (Riding) Jackson
(1901-1991). A prolific poet who published her Collected Poems at age 37
and renounced poetry one year later, Laura (Riding) Jackson continued to
explore the relationship between truth and language in such prose works as
Rational Meaning: A New Foundation for the Definition of Words. 

_______________________________________________________


Children's Room Event:
The Spirit of the Buffalo 
A reading and watercolor workshop with Beverly Brodsky
Saturday, November 6, 11am
Free 

Author and artist Beverly Brodsky leads a demonstration and workshop on the
magic that can be created with watercolors. She will also read poems from
her new children's book Buffalo. 

Beverly Brodsky is the recipient of the Caldecott Medal for Illustration
and her work has been exhibited at the Whitney and the Jewish Museum.

_______________________________________________________
     
Nicole Brossard in Conversation with Mary Ann Caws
Tuesday, November 9, 7pm
$7, Free for Members & CUNY faculty and students

Scholar, translator and editor Mary Ann Caws talks with Nicole Brossard, a
leading figure of Qu?bec post-modernist and feminist writing.

Co-sponsored with The Center for the Humanities at the Graduate Center of
the City University of New York (CUNY) & Belladonna, a reading,
publication, and conversation series investigating feminist experimental
poetics. Funded in part by the New York Council for the Humanities.

_______________________________________________________

Black Serial Poetics: 
A Conversation & Reading with Nathaniel Mackey & Ed Roberson
Introduced by Brent Hayes Edwards
Friday, November 12, 7pm
$7, Free for Members

Poets Nathaniel Mackey and Ed Roberson read and discuss issues of
innovation and serial poetics, poetic precursors (from Robert Duncan to
Amiri Baraka) and other formal influences, such as Black music. 

Co-sponsored by the Center for the Critical Analysis of Contemporary
Culture, Rutgers University.
  
_______________________________________________________

Passwords: 
Tom Sleigh on Thom Gunn's Re-invention of Love Poetry
Thursday, November 18, 7pm
$7, Free for Members 

Poet Tom Sleigh discusses the poetry of Thom Gunn (1929-2004) as an
experiment in the conventions of courtly and not-so-courtly love. Gunn
published more than thirty books of poetry, including Boss Cupid and
Collected Poems, and several collections of essays, including The Occasions
of Poetry.
  
_______________________________________________________

Children's Event:
Words Without Borders: 
A Reading of International Children's Literature
Saturday, November 20, 4pm
Free for children under 5; $5 for children over 5; $10 for adults

A benefit for Words Without Borders, this event features a reading of the
best in children's literature from around the world by acclaimed actors.
$10 for adults, $5 for children, children under 5 free.

All proceeds will benefit Words Without Borders, an organization dedicated
to improving international communication through translation. For more
information, please visit www.wordswithoutborders.org.

_______________________________________________________

Queer Invention: Writers & Artists Re-Imag(in)e Identity
At the CUNY Graduate Center
Elebash Recital Hall, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th St.
Thursday, December 2, 7pm
Free

Moderated by Ronaldo Wilson, with Kathy High, Shelley Jackson, D.A. Powell
& Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick

Writers and artists present video art, web art, poetry and theory that
radically reinterprets sexual identity and the self.

Co-sponsored by The Center for the Humanities, The Center for the Study of
Women and Society, and The Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies at the
Graduate Center for the City University of New York. Funded in part by the
New York Council for the Humanities.

_______________________________________________________

Children's Event:
The Wind In Your Hand:
And Other Secrets of a Winter's Day with Richard Lewis
Saturday, December 4, 11am 
Free 

Poems by those who love the hidden worlds of winter with its mysteries of
wind and snow and frozen waters. We will share these poems--as well as make
our own small book of poems--celebrating the invisibilities and secrets of
a winter's day.

_______________________________________________________

Application Deadline: December 8    
Master Class with Ron Padgett
Saturday & Sunday, Jan. 29-30, 1:30-5:30pm
$250, Space is limited

In this two-day class, Ron Padgett will emphasize the writing of new work.

** Please see above application procedure for Marjorie Welish's Master Class

_______________________________________________________

HOLIDAY BOOK SALE
Thursday, December 9, 11-7pm
Friday, December 10, 11-7pm
Saturday, December 11, 11-4pm
Tuesday, December 14, 11-7pm
Private Sale for Members: Wednesday, December 8, 4-8pm

Thousands of books at bargain prices! Almost brand new books $5 & up. All
books are duplicate copies from our 45,000-volume (and growing) collection
& all proceeds benefit the library.

_______________________________________________________

And Don't Miss These Other Events of Interest
_______________________________________________________

Spinoza Doesn't Live Here Anymore: Poems by Colette Inez
Reading and book party
Presented by Melville House Publishing
Thursday, November 11, 7pm
Free

Colette Inez will be reading from her newest collection of poetry, Spinoza
Doesn't Live Here Anymore (Melville House). She is the author of several
other collections, including The Woman Who Loved Words, Clemency, and
Getting Under Way: New and Selected Poems. She is the recipient of the
Pushcart Prize and awards from the Guggenheim Foundation, National
Endowment for the Arts, and the Rockefeller Foundation. She is a professor
of poetry at Columbia University. 


For more information about sponsoring an event at Poets House under a
special rental agreement, email Mike Romanos, mike at poetshouse.org

_________________________________________________________

Poets House is a literary center and poetry archive -- a collection and
meeting place that invites poets and the public to step into the living
tradition of poetry. Our 45,000 volumes of books, journals, chapbooks,
audiotapes, videos and electronic media is the most comprehensive
open-access collection of poetry in the United States.

The Reading Room is free and open to the public
Tuesday-Friday, 11-7pm & Saturday 11-4pm.
The Children's Reading Room is open Saturday 11-1pm.

Please call (212) 431-7920 or visit our website
http://www.poetshouse.org for more information & for holiday closings.
  
Poets House
72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY  10012
_________________________________________________________

To unsubscribe from the Poets House mailing list please email
remove at poetshouse.org and specify "Remove" in the subject line.

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_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 18
*****************************************

		
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From bardo at optonline.net  Sat Nov  6 17:39:34 2004
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 17:39:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
References: <190.325827e1.2ebe6ab0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005401c4c451$7d872360$3a95c044@MULDER>

James (and Paul),

I'd like to respond to both of your comments, and I've reposted Paul's (below).
Perhaps all the several reports I've read in both mainstream and independent media 
have got it wrong about the unverifiability of the voting machines in question, but
if so, I find myself wrong in vast and various company. Mr. O'Dell did, indeed, say
he'd do all he could to ensure that Bush would win Ohio. 
Point: Not all black boxes work the same. Some leave paper records. Some give voters
receipts.
Point: Paranoid conspiracy theory? Did Jeb Bush hire a company for a great deal of
money to disenfranchise 'felons' in 2000, and in the process wrongly keep people
from voting who should have--and did he not also keep those people from re-registering
until after the mid-term election of 2002? Did Florida troopers inhibit minorities from
getting to polls on time? Did Ken Blackwell, secretary of state of Ohio, try to throw out
registration forms not on 80 lb. stock paper (mostly from newly registering Democrats,
as reported widely)? Did Blackwell also oppose a provision to allow voters to cast their
ballots anywhere in their counties, even if not in their precincts--a provision which would
enable more voters to exercise their franchise? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah. Did
Republican Nixon conspire by Watergate break-in and dirty tricks campaign? Well, yeah.
(Take it back to his campaign against Helen Douglas, for that matter.) Did the Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth, funded by Republican insiders, lie about John Kerry to conspire to
assassinate his character? Well, John McCain said so. Did Bush lie about WMD and
yellowcake from Niger? Yeah. Doesn't this kind of behavior make you a tad suspicious?
(Suspicious. Curious. Nice words. Paranoid. Conspiracy. Bad words. Must we reduce
political discourse to name-calling?)
Point: "You don't want to abolish voting, do you?" asks Paul. Straw man. Red herring.
False dilemma. Bad words, perhaps, but apt.

~ Dan Zimmerman


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 12:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day


  In a message dated 11/3/2004 11:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes:


    About 29 million people 'voted' on touch screen machines
    that leave no paper trail and which hackers can rig without
    evidence of the rigging; Wally O'Dell, head of Ohio-based
    Diebold, a manufacturer of large numbers of such machines--
    the Ohio Bush campaign chief--vowed to do anything



  This makes for a nice conspiracy theory...but its probably
  news to the computer world that systems can't be audited.
  Transactions and altered code do leave behind traces. I don't 
  believe these systems are any more vulnerable to election rigging
  than paper ballots. I'm sure the mechanical voting machines,
  which we still use in my precinct, met with similar suspicion
  when first introduced.  A black box with a screen or a black box 
  with levers or a black box with a slot on top is a black box.
  Finnegan



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
  Let the paranoid conspiracy theories begin! The Michael Moore election style was so successful this year you want to use it again in '08?




  On 11/3/04 10:00 PM, "Daniel Zimmerman" <bardo at optonline.net> wrote:


    Minds? Viscera. 
    (In their guts, they didn't know he's nuts
    --or perhaps they do, and love it.)
     
    Do you imagine that anything other than an elite rules America?
    Now we've got the ultimate elite: a president who takes his
    marching orders from "a higher Father." Does Moses
    Bush actually propose to lead us to the Promised Land?
    Moses, of course, as a murderer, couldn't enter Canaan;
    Bush, as a multiple felon, might have trouble, too (see
    Ramsay Clark's Articles of Impeachment). 
     
    About 29 million people 'voted' on touch screen machines
    that leave no paper trail and which hackers can rig without
    evidence of the rigging; Wally O'Dell, head of Ohio-based
    Diebold, a manufacturer of large numbers of such machines--
    the Ohio Bush campaign chief--vowed to do anything
    he could to deliver Ohio for the Resident. Doesn't that
    make your mind swoon and your gut gag simultaneously?
     
    ~ Dan Zimmerman

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Paul Lake <mailto:paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>  
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>  
      Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 5:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words for the day

      On 11/3/04 11:14 AM, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote:


        Moral values and concerns were what was most on the minds of voters.


      In a democracy the ?concerns . . . on the minds of the voters? determine who gets elected.  
      The alternative is rule by an elite.  Maybe next time a new set of moral concerns will prevail. You don?t want to abolish voting, do you?

      Paul Lake 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Nov  7 05:33:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:33:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Another Republic
References: <25.51c2ba78.2ebe732d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00b601c4c4b5$45336fa0$328e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>


Without your permission James I copied and pasted your comments to Michael Rothenberg who thanked me for them. And now with your permission, I would like to open a new page under _ Quotations _ and start collecting some incredible quotations people send in to this list starting from this mail. It goes without saying that every time I choose something I will first b/c the person who sent them in.

O poeta ? un fingidor.
Finge tao completamente
que chega a fingir que ? dor
a dor que deveras sente.
Fernando Pessoa

The poet is a feigner.
He feigns so well
that he can feign as pain
the pain he does feel.

Thank you, anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 7:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pessoa/Another Republic


  selections from... 
  _Always Astonished_, the selected prose of Fernando Pessoa, 
  translated by Edwin Honig. A collection of mostly short entries 
  on this & that subject related to poetry, art, & Pessoa's personal 
  (if not all of the various & sundry Pessoas') philosophy.


  "I was a poet animated by philosophy, not a philosopher
  with poetic faculties. I loved to admire the beauty of things,
  to trace the imperceptible through the minute the poetic
  soul of the universe." [Autobiographic Notes, 1. The earliest
  literary food]

  "Art, fully defined, is the harmonic expression of our 
  consciousness of sensations, that is to say, our sensations
  must be so expressed that they create an object which
  will be a sensation to others. Art is not, as Bacon said,
  'man added to Nature'; it is sensation multiplied by
  consciousness--multiplied, be it well noted." [On Sensationism,
  2. Letter to an English Editor]

  "Lucidity should only reach the threshold of the soul. In the
  very antechambers of feeling it is forbidden to be explicit"
  -&-
  "Substitute yourself always. You are not enough for yourself.
  Be unpredictable always for yourself. Let yourself happen
  before yourself. Let your sensations be purely accidental, 
  adventures that happen to you. You must be a universe
  without laws in order to be superior." [On Sensationism,
  5 To feel is to create]

  "A great emotion is too selfish. It takes into itself all the
  blood of the spirit, and the congestion leaves the hands too
  cold to write. Three sorts of emotions produce great poetry--
  strong but quick emotions, seized upon for art as soon as
  they have passed, but not before they have passed; strong
  and deep emotions in their remembrance a long time after;
  and false emotions, that is to say, emotions felt in the 
  intellect. Not insincerity, yet a translated sincerity, is the
  basis of all art." [Literature and the Artist, 8. The Artist
  and Emotion]

  "I am always astonished when I finish anything. Astonished
  and depressed. My instinct for perfection should inhibit me
  until I get started. But I distract myself and do it. What I
  achieve is a product in me, not by applying my will but by
  giving into it. I begin because I'm not motivated to think; I
  conclude because I haven't the nerve to leave off. The book
  is my act of cowardice." [Always Astonished: A Journal,
  21. Always astonished]

  ---
  http://www.citylights.com/pub/catalog/BCalways.html
  City Lights Books, 800-274-7826

  Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov  7 11:17:47 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 10:17:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 
Message-ID: <BDB3A6CB.CBD1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

According to the Writer's Almanac, Joni Mitchell is 61 years old today.
Such a strange and novel lyricist.  I don't really know how well her lyrics
work on the page, since I'm unable to "hear" them without music playing in
my mind's ear.  But she certainly is an original.

A song from her underrated 1972 album, *For the Roses*--

COLD BLUE STEEL AND SWEET FIRE

Cold Blue Steel out of money
One eye for the beat police
Sweet Fire calling
"You can't deny me
Now you know what you need"
Underneath the jungle gym
Hollow-grey-fire-escape-thief
Looking for Sweet Fire
Shadow of Lady Release
"Come with me
I know the way" she says
"It's down, down, down the dark ladder
Do you want to contact somebody first
Leave someone a letter
You can come now
Or you can come later"

A wristwatch, a ring, a downstairs screamer
Edgy-black cracks of the sky
"Pin-cushion-prick-
Fix this poor bad dreamer!"
"Money" cold shadows reply
Pawnshops crisscrossed and padlocked
Corridors spit on prayers and pleas
Sparks fly up from Sweet Fire
Black soot of Lady Release
"Come with me
I know the way" she says
"It's down, down, down the dark ladder
Do you want to contact somebody first
Does it really matter
If you come now
Or if you come on later?"

Red water in the bathroom sink
Fever and the scum brown bowl
Blue Steel still begging
But it's indistinct
Someone's Hi-Fi drumming Jelly Roll
Concrete concentration camp
Bashing in veins for peace
Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire
Fall into Lady Release
"Come with me I know the way" she says
"It's down, down, down the dark ladder
Do you want to contact somebody first
I mean what does it really matter
You're going to come now
Or you're going to come later"



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov  7 13:39:04 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:39:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] words for the day
Message-ID: <158.4320e539.2ebfc5c8@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/6/2004 5:41:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bardo at optonline.net writes:

> Point: Not all black boxes work the same. Some leave paper records. Some 
> give voters
>  receipts.
> 
Dan, 
Sorry if I suggested you were being paranoid. But it does seem these 
election 'irregularities' accusations fly from both sides. The day of the 
election
there were "reports" of voting machines delivered in Philly with votes for 
Kerry
already in the counters...stuff like that. If a computer, a voting machine or 

a human being gives you a paper receipt saying "You voted for John Kerry," 
that may be give you some comfort, but it doesn't mean one's vote won't be
tampered with.  
I voted straight-ticket Democratic...but I'm afraid to say my team just got 
its ass whooped, plain & simple. Were some votes stolen/thrwarted among 
the many millions cast...yeah, probably...but a whole hell of a lot of 
people,
people I'm related to, people I work with, even a few people I know who 
happen to live in Columbus, Ohio and outside of Cincy (and I only know this 
because they told me so) just voted the wrong way. 
Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Nov  7 13:50:45 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:50:45 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 
Message-ID: <144.3834e294.2ebfc885@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/7/2004 10:18:15 AM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> According to the Writer's Almanac, Joni Mitchell is 61 years old today.
> Such a strange and novel lyricist.  I don't really know how well her lyrics
> work on the page, since I'm unable to "hear" them without music playing in
> my mind's ear.  But she certainly is an original.
> 
No kidding.  Her first husband, Guy Mitchell, a singer and poet, was here 
many years ago and we talked a lot.  He felt like he'd kind of missed the bus.  
"The Same Situation" is one of my favorite lyrics.
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  7 15:33:21 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:33:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] T.S. Eliot Prize
Message-ID: <20041107203321.75022.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com>

The shortlist for the T.S. Eliot prize is over the
BBC's website, linked from Poetry Daily.

Is anyone familiar with any of these poets?


Colette Bryce - The Full Indian Rope Trick 
Kathryn Gray - The Never Never 
Kathleen Jamie - The Tree House 
Michael Longley - Snow Water 
Ruth Padel - The Soho Leopard 
Tom Paulin - The Road to Inver 
Peter Porter - Afterburner 
Michael Symmons Roberts - Corpus 
George Szirtes - Reel 
John Hartley Williams - Blues 

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Nov  7 15:40:44 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:40:44 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] T.S. Eliot Prize
In-Reply-To: <20041107203321.75022.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010a01c4c50a$143ad000$b83e1c40@Emily>

I read a Kathleen Jamie book once. I liked it, as I recall.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 12:33 PM
To: Poetry News and Reviews
Subject: [New-Poetry] T.S. Eliot Prize

The shortlist for the T.S. Eliot prize is over the
BBC's website, linked from Poetry Daily.

Is anyone familiar with any of these poets?


Colette Bryce - The Full Indian Rope Trick 
Kathryn Gray - The Never Never 
Kathleen Jamie - The Tree House 
Michael Longley - Snow Water 
Ruth Padel - The Soho Leopard 
Tom Paulin - The Road to Inver 
Peter Porter - Afterburner 
Michael Symmons Roberts - Corpus 
George Szirtes - Reel 
John Hartley Williams - Blues 

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Faustina1 at aol.com  Sun Nov  7 16:53:04 2004
From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:53:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] T.S. Eliot Prize
Message-ID: <193.324b5071.2ebff340@aol.com>

Peter Porter is a British poet who is quite well known; I am familiar with 
some of the other names, but not very.  Janet


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov  7 20:30:03 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:30:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] where is Warren G. Harding? 
Message-ID: <154.437a93af.2ec0261b@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/6/2004 2:40:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Florida exit polls had Warren G. Harding the winner by a margin of 72% but 
> the computers didn't give him one vote!  Explain THAT!

Two Poems about President Harding

One: His Death

In Marion, the honey locust trees are falling.
Everybody in town remembers the white hair,
The campaign of a lost summer, the front porch
Open to the public, and the vaguely stunned smile
Of a lucky man.

"Neighbor, I want to be helpful," he said once.
Later, "You think I'm honest, don't you?"
Weeping drunk.

I am drunk this evening in 1961,
In a jag for my countryman,
Who died of crab meat on the way back from Alaska.
Everyone knows that joke.
How many honey locusts have fallen,
Pitched rootlong into the open graves of strip mines,
Since the First World War ended
And Wilson the gaunt deacon jogged sullenly
Into silence?
Tonight,
The cancerous ghosts of old con men
Shed their leaves
For a proud man,
Lost between the turnpike near Cleveland
And the chiropractors' signs looming among dead 
mulberry trees,
There is no place left to go
But home.

"Warren lacks mentality," one of his friends said.

Yet he was beautiful, he was the snowfall
Turned to white stallions standing still
Under dark elm trees.

He died in public. He claimed the secret right
To be ashamed.


Two: His Tomb in Ohio
    "?he died of a busted gut."
        --Mencken, on Bryan

A hundred slag piles north of us,
At the mercy of the moon and rain,
He lies in his ridiculous
Tomb, our fellow citizen.
No, I have never seen the place,
Where many shadows of faceless thieves
Chuckle and stumble and embrace
On beer cans, stogie butts, and graves.

One holiday, one rainy week
After the country fell apart,
Hoover and Coolidge came to speak
And snivel about his broken heart.
His grave, a huge absurdity,
Embarrassed cops and visitors.
Hoover and Coolidge crept away
By night, and women closed their doors.

Now junkmen call their children in
Before they catch their death of cold;
Young lovers let the moon begin
Its quick spring, and the day grows old;
The mean one-legger who rakes up leaves
Has chased the loafers out of the park;
Minnegan Leonard half-believes
In God, and the poolroom goes dark.

America goes on, goes on
Laughing, and Harding was a fool.
Even his big pretentious stone
Lays him bare to ridicule.
I know it. But don't look at me.
By God,  I didn't start this mess.
Whatever moon and rain may be,
The hearts of men are merciless.


       --James Wright, _The Branch Will Not Break_
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov  7 21:27:26 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 20:27:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] where is Warren G. Harding? 
In-Reply-To: <154.437a93af.2ec0261b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BDB435AE.CC08%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/7/04 7:30 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

I am drunk this evening in 1961,
In a jag for my countryman,
Who died of crab meat on the way back from Alaska.
           Everyone knows that joke.

The one & only time I heard James Wright give a poetry reading, I went up to
him afterward and, after the pleasantries, asked him about these lines.
What was the joke?,  I wanted to know.  Everyone might know it, but not me.

He just looked at me as if I were crazy and turned away.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov  7 21:47:26 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:47:26 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Jim=E9nez?=
Message-ID: <e1.5cdc364.2ec0383e@aol.com>

I missed some of the Jim?nez thread, but did anyone
mention _The Complete Perfectionist: A Poetics of Work_, 
edited by Christopher Maurer? A book of Jim?nez 
aphorisms and journal entries culled from thousands of pages 
left unpublished at the time of his death....

In poetic imagination, as in the sea, there may be zones
of oblivion, but nothing is ever lost. [p. 77]

What is glimpsed is more visible and lasts longer than
what is seen. [p. 86]

The art of appearances is lovelier than the art of realities. [p. 86]

In poetry what can be resolved in a circle is never everything.
By contrast, what remains half-resolved, on a difficult 
middle ground, is always a path. [p. 87]

What matters in writing, I think, is that the ordinary word
seems to be used for the first time, and the rare one seems
ordinary, so that one doesn't stumble over it and no word
feels strange or wrong, wherever it is placed. [p. 147]

In poetry, the word should be so exact that the reader
forgets it and only the idea remains: a little like a river
that makes us forget the water and remember only the current.
[p 147]

No deep truth has ever been shouted. [p. 150]

Poetry is the almost said, literature the said, rhetoric the
re-said. The almost said is the highest category of beauty. [p. 150]

Much, yes, as long as it is as good as little. [p. 151]

Don't strike from your work a word you no longer understand.
There was a reason you put it there. [p. 165]

In the papers in my wastebasket, what beauties of rhythm
and color! What a restless, dull kaleidoscope! [p. 166]

A quivering, restless perfection, whose ideal is normal imperfection. [p.178]

& one last one?

"Man should consider himself fortunate to have been a
contemporary of the rose."


--
Anny, feel free to take anything I post for your Quotations
page...and many thanks for your good works for our art.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov  7 22:01:56 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:01:56 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] where is Warren G. Harding? 
Message-ID: <7a.65be435d.2ec03ba4@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/7/2004 9:27:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> What was the joke?,  I wanted to know.  Everyone might know it, but not me. 
>  
> 
> He just looked at me as if I were crazy and turned away.
> 

David, I don't know for sure but I always thought is was Wright's sidelong
way of referring to a conspiracy theory popular at the time that went 
something like: Harding was murdered by powerful people who were afraid
he'd start telling all about the growing scandals that were wrecking
his administration. Ptomaine poisoning was the attributed cause
of death but apparently his body was never autopsied.
Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Nov  7 22:21:37 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:21:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] where is Warren G. Harding? 
Message-ID: <e5.5e4efdf.2ec04041@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/7/2004 8:27:46 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> >> I am drunk this evening in 1961,
>> In a jag for my countryman,
>> Who died of crab meat on the way back from Alaska.
>> 
>           Everyone knows that joke.

I think that was one of the newspaper stories about what had killed Harding.
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From jsafdie at comcast.net  Sun Nov  7 23:16:34 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:16:34 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] where is Warren G. Harding? 
References: <7a.65be435d.2ec03ba4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c4c549$bc01de20$56001118@D6T95L21>

Kids, Kids . . . we live in a new world of research, remember?

http://www.doctorzebra.com/prez/g29.htm

Now, did James Wright have access to this information when he wrote the poem(s)? Almost assuredly not -- he knew it from osmosis, from being alive in Ohio. But it does raise the question of how much historical information can filter into poetry.

That is, I understand that many on this list are upset about Ron Silliman's designation of a "school of quietude" . . . but if one exists, it would seem to need, as one of its characteristics, a refusal to allow historical and political information into the poem . . . a stricture that, thankfully, James Wright didn't observe.

(By the way, it was a pleasure to read these poems again -- by coincidence, I had looked them up some weeks ago when Ohio was labeled an "essential" state, but it turned out I was thinking more about the high school football players "galloping terribly against each other's bodies.")

At any rate, here's some choice information from the web site above . . . (check out the last bulleted item, which might have some resonance).

Joe

__________________________


Harding's final illness occured during an extended trip to the West in summer 1923. 
After playing six holes of golf in Vancouver, Canada, Harding became so tired that, to quell any suspicions, he moved to the 17th hole, then finished the 18th. He later called for White House homeopath Sawyer, complaining of nausea and pain in the upper abdomen. Sawyer found the President had a pulse of 120 beats per minute and was breathing 40 times per minute. (Both of these readings are abnormally high.) "Intensive cardiac therapy including digitalis was started." [4] 

Harding died suddenly and unexpectedly in his bed in a San Francisco hotel room several days later, on August 2, 1923. Mrs. Harding refused permission for an autopsy. [4] (It is often supposed that Harding died of an acute myocardial infarction, that is, a " heart attack" or "coronary occlusion." However, this should not be supposed merely because he died suddenly. Harding clearly had heart failure (recall the valet's statement), and persons with heart failure are prone to sudden death as well.) 

His physician diagnosed Harding's fatal myocardial infarct as crab meat poisoning. [6a] Lyman Wilbur forecast his death [11]  as did Emmanuel Libman [3b].  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Odds & Ends [Top] 


  a.. For his personal physician while president, Harding picked a family friend from Ohio -- a homeopathic physician. Little wonder that the diagnosis of heart disease was missed for so long. [6a] 

  b.. Both of Harding's parents were homeopathic practitioners. In 1869, Harding's father, George Tryon Harding, bought a second-hand set of medical books and began reading medicine. Over the next four years he went on rounds with a local homeopath and attended a total of two sessions session at a homeopathic college in Cleveland. With these credentials he was allowed to affix "M.D." after his name. Tryon moved his family to the county seat of Marion, Ohio in search of new patients, but his practice remained marginal. He was regarded as being more interested in sudden riches than the practice of medicine, investing more energy in real estate than in patient care. Harding's mother, Phoebe, was a midwife. On the basis of this practice and assisting her husband, she was granted an Ohio medical license in 1896. She designated herself a homeopathic physician and practiced until her premature death in 1910.  Charles Sawyer entered the Harding's lives in 1897 when Phoebe Harding was accused of malpractice in the death of a child. Sawyer, a respected member of the local homeopathic community, absolved her of all responsibility in the affair. [4] 

  c.. The Sawyers and the younger Hardings became friends, and after 1904 even traveled together. In 1905 Florence Harding, the wife of the future president, had a kidney removed. In 1913 Sawyer became her physician. "The Duchess," became dependent upon him, and became convinced that only he could keep her alive. The Hardings insisted that Sawyer become White House physician, and he even became a member of the twice-weekly White House poker group. In 1922 The Duchess, now First Lady, developed a "critical" urinary tract illness of her remaining kidney. Two famous consultants, Charles Mayo and John Finney, wanted to operate. Sawyer disagreed, and Mrs. Harding ultimately recovered without surgery. [4] 

  d.. Another view of the Harding's White House physician (presumably Charles Sawyer) can be found in the memoirs of Ira Smith [9a]: 
    Mrs. Harding's favorite around the place was a doctor who, through her efforts, became the President's physician; he also became a Brigadier General. He was a little fellow, a bit on the pompous side, and not particularly popular except with the First Lady. So on the first day he arrived in his resplendent uniform, the news photographers went to work on him. They stopped him outside the office and posed him all over the place, but particularly walking down the driveway. He strutted a bit normally, but with the uniform he strutted good. They made him do it over and over, snapping their cameras endlessly while the doctor sweated in the sun. 
    After about fifteen minutes, while he was panting but still game, I asked one of the boys why they were wasting so much film on him. 

    "Hell, we're just having fun," he replied. "Nobody's had any film in his camera since the first shot. But we like to see him strut."


  e.. Knowing that his political and home lives would be ruined by revelations he adulterously fathered a child [7h], In March 1919 (approximately), Harding tried to convince Nan Britton to terminate the pregnancy. He first offered her a bottle of medication (Dr. Humphrey's No. 11 tablets) that his wife took. "Obliquely, he suggested to her that if he had to choose between medicine and an operation he personally would prefer 'the knife'" [7i]. Britton declined, and on October 22, 1919 delivered the girl who had been conceived in Harding's office the Senate Office Building [7j]. Through the pregnancy, and afterwards, Harding never abandoned Britton [7k]. 
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Nov  7 23:36:14 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 23:36:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 
References: <144.3834e294.2ebfc885@cs.com>
Message-ID: <014501c4c54c$7d039670$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Guy Mitchell who recorded "Singin' the Blues"?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 1:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 


  In a message dated 11/7/2004 10:18:15 AM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 

    According to the Writer's Almanac, Joni Mitchell is 61 years old today.
    Such a strange and novel lyricist.  I don't really know how well her lyrics
    work on the page, since I'm unable to "hear" them without music playing in
    my mind's ear.  But she certainly is an original.


  No kidding.  Her first husband, Guy Mitchell, a singer and poet, was here many years ago and we talked a lot.  He felt like he'd kind of missed the bus.  "The Same Situation" is one of my favorite lyrics. 


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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Nov  7 23:44:15 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 23:44:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 
Message-ID: <60.47fdab64.2ec0539f@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/7/2004 10:36:44 PM Central Standard Time, 
tad at opus40.org writes: 
> 
> Guy Mitchell who recorded "Singin' the Blues"?
> 
Sorry.  Chuck Mitchell.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Nov  8 00:29:27 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 23:29:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] where is Warren G. Harding? 
In-Reply-To: <e5.5e4efdf.2ec04041@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BDB46057.CC1E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/7/04 9:21 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/7/2004 8:27:46 PM Central Standard Time,
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

I am drunk this evening in 1961,
In a jag for my countryman,
Who died of crab meat on the way back from Alaska.

         Everyone knows that joke.


I think that was one of the newspaper stories about what had killed Harding.
_______________________________________________

So what's the joke?  Everyone knows *what* joke?


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Nov  8 00:34:59 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 00:34:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 
References: <60.47fdab64.2ec0539f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003801c4c554$b202f700$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Too bad.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 11:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 


  In a message dated 11/7/2004 10:36:44 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 


    Guy Mitchell who recorded "Singin' the Blues"?


  Sorry.  Chuck Mitchell. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Nov  8 00:37:50 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 23:37:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
In-Reply-To: <00b101c4c549$bc01de20$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <BDB4624E.CC21%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/7/04 10:16 PM, Joe Safdie at jsafdie at comcast.net wrote:

That is, I understand that many on this list are upset about Ron Silliman's
designation of a "school of quietude" . . . but if one exists, it would seem
to need, as one of its characteristics, a refusal to allow historical and
political information into the poem . . . a stricture that, thankfully,
James Wright didn't observe.
 ------------------------

I'm not too clear on what this School of Quietude consists of, I confess.
Can anyone point me to an actual definition?  I've found numerous references
to it, in Silliman's blog & elsewhere, but nothing that seemed to define its
traits with any specificity.  In context it seems to mean something rather
like "mainstream," with all the vagueness that that term implies.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Nov  8 03:18:32 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 00:18:32 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mitchell 
Message-ID: <200411080759.iA87x1XS381216@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

I've probably said this on this list before, but "both sides now"
works on the page at least as well as many blake songs of innocence or
experience. totally holds up to close readings in the classroom
in the way some of her other lyrics may not (which doesn't mean they're
worse, "as lyrics")....c

----------
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Mitchell
>Date: Sun, Nov 7, 2004, 8:17 AM
>

> According to the Writer's Almanac, Joni Mitchell is 61 years old today.
> Such a strange and novel lyricist.  I don't really know how well her lyrics
> work on the page, since I'm unable to "hear" them without music playing in
> my mind's ear.  But she certainly is an original.
>
> A song from her underrated 1972 album, *For the Roses*--
>
> COLD BLUE STEEL AND SWEET FIRE
>
> Cold Blue Steel out of money
> One eye for the beat police
> Sweet Fire calling
> "You can't deny me
> Now you know what you need"
> Underneath the jungle gym
> Hollow-grey-fire-escape-thief
> Looking for Sweet Fire
> Shadow of Lady Release
> "Come with me
> I know the way" she says
> "It's down, down, down the dark ladder
> Do you want to contact somebody first
> Leave someone a letter
> You can come now
> Or you can come later"
>
> A wristwatch, a ring, a downstairs screamer
> Edgy-black cracks of the sky
> "Pin-cushion-prick-
> Fix this poor bad dreamer!"
> "Money" cold shadows reply
> Pawnshops crisscrossed and padlocked
> Corridors spit on prayers and pleas
> Sparks fly up from Sweet Fire
> Black soot of Lady Release
> "Come with me
> I know the way" she says
> "It's down, down, down the dark ladder
> Do you want to contact somebody first
> Does it really matter
> If you come now
> Or if you come on later?"
>
> Red water in the bathroom sink
> Fever and the scum brown bowl
> Blue Steel still begging
> But it's indistinct
> Someone's Hi-Fi drumming Jelly Roll
> Concrete concentration camp
> Bashing in veins for peace
> Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire
> Fall into Lady Release
> "Come with me I know the way" she says
> "It's down, down, down the dark ladder
> Do you want to contact somebody first
> I mean what does it really matter
> You're going to come now
> Or you're going to come later"
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov  8 07:05:59 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:05:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000601c4c58b$50004ee0$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Ruth Altman - a new
New York School poet

4 more years?
Where do we go from here?

Joe Brainard -
A new memoir by Ron Padgett
& the role of memoirs
in the NY School

Moolaade -
Resistance to female circumcision
in Burkina Faso
(a film by Ousmane Sembene)

Voting as tho 
the nation's future
depended on it
 
How do I decide 
what's right for me?

Letting "the Outside" 
"dictate" 	
"the poem" -
Mark Tursi on a Spicerian side of poetics

K Silem Mohammad's 
"A Language Poetry Dossier" -
Googlism vs. Google

The Motorcycle Diaries -
Che the wide-eye med student

So where Goest Cole Swensen?

Joe Safdie on names, poetry
& the redbirds of St. Louis

Our 200,000th visitor is. . . 

"They were tamed by pitchers who, 
in an era when arms are more delicate
           than orchids, 
worked like Iditarod dogs."

Writing as an activity
vs. writing as a process

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Mon Nov  8 11:00:34 2004
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:00:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] where is Warren G. Harding? 
In-Reply-To: <BDB46057.CC1E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <e5.5e4efdf.2ec04041@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20041108095132.0106c1e8@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 11:29 PM 11/7/2004 -0600, David Graham wrote:

>In a message dated 11/7/2004 8:27:46 PM Central Standard Time, 
>grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
>
>I am drunk this evening in 1961,
>In a jag for my countryman,
>Who died of crab meat on the way back from Alaska.
>
>
>          Everyone knows that joke.
>
>
>
>I think that was one of the newspaper stories about what had killed Harding.
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>So what's the joke?  Everyone knows *what* joke?

I don't know why it would be a joke (maybe "crab meat" was a crude 
euphemism for the kind of female companionship that would increase one's 
risks of lice infestation). However,in the 1930's the conventional 
conspiracy theory was that Mrs. Harding had poisoned Warren because of his 
continuing loyalty and aid to Nan Britton, with whom he fathered an 
illegitimate child while a senator (said child supposedly later delivered 
in an office in the Senate Office Building). Supposedly Mrs. Harding caught 
Warren writing a letter to Ms. Britton shortly before his death, and that 
for her was the last straw. Mrs. Harding was the one who refused to allow 
an autopsy, etc. All of this was according to an ex-FBI man named Gaston 
Means, who published a lurid book called _The Strange Death of Warren 
Harding_ in 1930. I'm told that a lot of the stories and accusations in the 
book are straight out of Gaston Means' imagination (coupled with his 
_National Inquirer_ sense of how to make money), but I know nothing more 
either to credit or to discredit the stories in the book.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon Nov  8 11:16:25 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:16:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] T.S. Eliot Prize
In-Reply-To: <20041107203321.75022.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20041107203321.75022.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411081116080.16263@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

Arent' Michael Longley and Tom Paulin Irish poets??


On Sun, 7 Nov 2004, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> The shortlist for the T.S. Eliot prize is over the
> BBC's website, linked from Poetry Daily.
>
> Is anyone familiar with any of these poets?
>
>
> Colette Bryce - The Full Indian Rope Trick
> Kathryn Gray - The Never Never
> Kathleen Jamie - The Tree House
> Michael Longley - Snow Water
> Ruth Padel - The Soho Leopard
> Tom Paulin - The Road to Inver
> Peter Porter - Afterburner
> Michael Symmons Roberts - Corpus
> George Szirtes - Reel
> John Hartley Williams - Blues
>
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  8 15:05:05 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:05:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerouac
Message-ID: <20041108200505.24389.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>

Does anyone have access to a hypertext version of a
Jack Kerouac poetry/prose piece that begins, "There
was a little alley in San Francisco . . . "

I think it might be from *Lonesome Traveler*.

Thanks,

Jeff

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. 
www.yahoo.com 
 



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Nov  8 15:18:28 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:18:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerouac
In-Reply-To: <20041108200505.24389.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20041108200505.24389.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20041108151218.S4282@kpaul.spinweb.net>

This is all I could find:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22There+was+a+little+alley+in+San+Francisco%22&hl=en&lr=&selm=spamhaus-ya02408000R1302981452340001%40news.pacbell.net&rnum=1

this might be of interest - it is from Lonesome Traveler - a chap called 
october and the railroad earth...

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Railroad+Earth%22+by+Jack+Kerouac&hl=en&lr=&selm=v01520d00ae5ccf1994b2%40%5B206.245.192.33%5D&rnum=6

this has a snippet too...

http://www.uunashua.org/sermons/Creativity.shtml

-kpaul
mallashc.com/mug/

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Does anyone have access to a hypertext version of a
> Jack Kerouac poetry/prose piece that begins, "There
> was a little alley in San Francisco . . . "
>
> I think it might be from *Lonesome Traveler*.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
> =====
> Jeff Newberry
>
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> www.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov  8 18:27:56 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:27:56 +0100
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Jim=C3=A9nez?=
References: <e1.5cdc364.2ec0383e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005601c4c5ea$94019f90$6e8f3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you 

I changed the link from _Quotations_ to _New Poetry Mailing List_ on the main index
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content

and I added _Selections from..._ to the previous one: _What is Poetry?_:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=841


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jim?nez


  I missed some of the Jim?nez thread, but did anyone
  mention _The Complete Perfectionist: A Poetics of Work_, 
  edited by Christopher Maurer? A book of Jim?nez 
  aphorisms and journal entries culled from thousands of pages 
  left unpublished at the time of his death....

  In poetic imagination, as in the sea, there may be zones
  of oblivion, but nothing is ever lost. [p. 77]

  What is glimpsed is more visible and lasts longer than
  what is seen. [p. 86]

  The art of appearances is lovelier than the art of realities. [p. 86]

  In poetry what can be resolved in a circle is never everything.
  By contrast, what remains half-resolved, on a difficult 
  middle ground, is always a path. [p. 87]

  What matters in writing, I think, is that the ordinary word
  seems to be used for the first time, and the rare one seems
  ordinary, so that one doesn't stumble over it and no word
  feels strange or wrong, wherever it is placed. [p. 147]

  In poetry, the word should be so exact that the reader
  forgets it and only the idea remains: a little like a river
  that makes us forget the water and remember only the current.
  [p 147]

  No deep truth has ever been shouted. [p. 150]

  Poetry is the almost said, literature the said, rhetoric the
  re-said. The almost said is the highest category of beauty. [p. 150]

  Much, yes, as long as it is as good as little. [p. 151]

  Don't strike from your work a word you no longer understand.
  There was a reason you put it there. [p. 165]

  In the papers in my wastebasket, what beauties of rhythm
  and color! What a restless, dull kaleidoscope! [p. 166]

  A quivering, restless perfection, whose ideal is normal imperfection. [p.178]

  & one last one?

  "Man should consider himself fortunate to have been a
  contemporary of the rose."


  --
  Anny, feel free to take anything I post for your Quotations
  page...and many thanks for your good works for our art.
  Finnegan




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
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From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Nov  8 19:20:34 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:20:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
In-Reply-To: <BDB4624E.CC21%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BDB4624E.CC21%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <2C24EEFE-31E5-11D9-B6D7-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 8, 2004, at 12:37 AM, David Graham wrote:

>  on 11/7/04 10:16 PM, Joe Safdie at jsafdie at comcast.net wrote:
>
>
> That is, I understand that many on this list are upset about Ron 
> Silliman's designation of a "school of quietude" . . . but if one 
> exists, it would seem to need, as one of its characteristics, a 
> refusal to allow historical and political information into the poem . 
> . . a stricture that, thankfully, James Wright didn't observe.
>
>  ------------------------
>
>  I'm not too clear on what this School of Quietude consists of, I 
> confess. ?Can anyone point me to an actual definition? ?I've found 
> numerous references to it, in Silliman's blog & elsewhere, but nothing 
> that seemed to define its traits with any specificity. ?In context it 
> seems to mean something rather like "mainstream," with all the 
> vagueness that that term implies. ?
>


> H eborrowed it from Poe, of all people


It's Silliman's own term, though he borrowed it from Poe, of all 
people, and it isn't quite "mainstream" -- it's both more private, 
sometimes meaning "poetry unlike what I want to see written" and, as 
Joe Safdie suggests, more political, when it usually means "ignoring or 
slighting marxism." I call it's obverse The School of Phlogiston.



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Nov  8 19:53:28 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:53:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] not so quiet, and some 'tude, too
Message-ID: <143.37ff9742.2ec16f08@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/7/2004 11:16:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jsafdie at comcast.net writes:

> Ron Silliman's designation of a "school of quietude" . . . but if one 
> exists, it would seem to need, as one of its characteristics, a refusal to allow 
> historical and political information into the poem . . . a stricture that, 
> thankfully, James Wright didn't observe.

And it's news to....
Ai
Phillip Levine
Thomas McGrath
Robert Pinsky
Carolyn Forche
Frank Bidart
Joy Harjo
Adrienne Rich
Martin Espada
too.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Nov  8 20:22:03 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:22:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <14.37ddecf5.2ec175bb@aol.com>

Ultimately, my itchiness over all this really has to do with my own 
discomfort at statements of agency ascribed to any abstraction or group noun. I cringe 
when W tells us what terrorists or ?evil doers? or even ?old Europe? are 
thinking & I cringe at any other assertion that ?Group noun is X,? regardless of 
what Group noun or X might be. 


    
    
    

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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov  9 08:26:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:26:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <ea.5c071050.2ec21f7e@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/8/2004 8:22:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:

> 
> Ultimately, my itchiness over all this really has to do with my own 
> discomfort at statements of agency ascribed to any abstraction or group noun. I 
> cringe when W tells us what terrorists or ?evil doers? or even ?old Europe? are 
> thinking &I cringe at any other assertion that ?Group noun is X,? regardless 
> of what Group noun or X might be. 
> 

I forgot to attribute the text above...it's from Ron Silliman's blog. 
Apparently
his misgiving is limited to political naming. A dismissive moniker like 
School 
of Quietude would be okay, I guess.
Finnegan
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Tue Nov  9 08:35:15 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:35:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa
Message-ID: <be.1b6aee76.2ec22193@aol.com>

a pessoa-related item from the nov/dec *poets & writers*:

     PESSOA Anthology. Seeking submissions for an anthology of North American 
poetic responses to      Fernando Pessoa. Tentative title of book: Under Our 
Skin: North American Poetic Responses to      Fernando Pessoa. All 
correspondence to Charles Cutler (Emeritus, Smith College), 22 Savoy Rd.,      W. Hawley, 
MA 01339. E-mail: ccutler at email.smith.edu


thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  9 10:01:34 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 10:01:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Rae Armantrout, "Middle Men"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEKFJDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Middle Men

The story is told from the view-point of two young technicians,
one fat and one thin, who must give their superior a moment by
moment account of their attempts to monitor the subject. Sus-
pense occurs, occasionally, when they must tell the superior that
they're having trouble keeping the listening devices within range.
We sympathize with the hunted subject, but also with the clearly
competent, frequently exasperated technicians, whose situation
is, after all, much more like our own.

--Rae Armantrout

fr. *Up to Speed* [Middletown, CT: Wesleyan Univeristy (sic)
Press, 2004]

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Nov  9 10:07:55 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 09:07:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Four failures in political poetry
Message-ID: <s19088fe.078@mail.highland.edu>

Anny Ballardini has put up some of my work at her ever-expanding Poet's
Corner, should anyone care to take a look. The four poems all deal, in
some way, with the unfolding war.

Kent

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=143




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Nov  9 14:25:36 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:25:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ronaldus Sillimaneus (Plautus)
Message-ID: <s190c556.066@mail.highland.edu>

Speaking of Ron S. and the so-called School of Quietude, there is a
bizarre play fragment posted today (an adaptation from an antique
translation by Gongora of a lost fragment from Plautus--or so we are
told) in which he plays a starring role.

At John Latta's Hotel Point.

http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  9 15:25:54 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 12:25:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <200411092006.iA9K6LLW086964@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

yep!

----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Date: Tue, Nov 9, 2004, 5:26 AM


In a message dated 11/8/2004 8:22:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JforJames at aol.com writes:


Ultimately, my itchiness over all this really has to do with my own
discomfort at statements of agency ascribed to any abstraction or group
noun. I cringe when W tells us what terrorists or ???evil doers??? or even
???old Europe??? are thinking &I cringe at any other assertion that ???Group
noun is X,??? regardless of what Group noun or X might be.


I forgot to attribute the text above...it's from Ron Silliman's blog.
Apparently
his misgiving is limited to political naming. A dismissive moniker like
School
of Quietude would be okay, I guess.
Finnegan _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  9 15:29:03 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:29:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerouac
In-Reply-To: <20041108151218.S4282@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <20041109202903.73087.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks.

I read this at a Beat-celebration poetry reading on
campus last night.  It was a big hit.

yours,

Jeff Newberry


--- kpaul mallasch <kpaul at mallasch.com> wrote:

> This is all I could find:
> 
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22There+was+a+little+alley+in+San+Francisco%22&hl=en&lr=&selm=spamhaus-ya02408000R1302981452340001%40news.pacbell.net&rnum=1
> 
> this might be of interest - it is from Lonesome
> Traveler - a chap called 
> october and the railroad earth...
> 
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22Railroad+Earth%22+by+Jack+Kerouac&hl=en&lr=&selm=v01520d00ae5ccf1994b2%40%5B206.245.192.33%5D&rnum=6
> 
> this has a snippet too...
> 
> http://www.uunashua.org/sermons/Creativity.shtml
> 
> -kpaul
> mallashc.com/mug/
> 
> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have access to a hypertext version of
> a
> > Jack Kerouac poetry/prose piece that begins,
> "There
> > was a little alley in San Francisco . . . "
> >
> > I think it might be from *Lonesome Traveler*.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > =====
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> > "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> > especially when your only friend
> > talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> > and you do just the same as him."
> > --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> > www.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov  9 18:57:52 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:57:52 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <1c1.2039b232.2ec2b380@aol.com>

Two aphorisms...

Those who have to claim to be avant-garde, aren't.

By the time it is a recognizable style it should be laid to rest.

Finnegan
In a message dated 11/9/2004 3:06:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:

> yep!
> 
> ----------
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Quietude
> Date: Tue, Nov 9, 2004, 5:26 AM
> 
> 
> >> In a message dated 11/8/2004 8:22:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>> JforJames at aol.com writes:
>> 
>> >>> 
>>> 
>> Ultimately, my itchiness over all this really has to do with my own 
>> discomfort at statements of agency ascribed to any abstraction or group noun. I 
>> cringe when W tells us what terrorists or ???evil doers??? or even ???old 
>> Europe??? are thinking &I cringe at any other assertion that ???Group noun is X,
>> ??? regardless of what Group noun or X might be. 
>> 
>> 
>> I forgot to attribute the text above...it's from Ron Silliman's blog. 
>> Apparently
>> his misgiving is limited to political naming. A dismissive moniker like 
>> School 
>> of Quietude would be okay, I guess.
>> Finnegan _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  9 21:10:01 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:10:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <200411100150.iAA1mvLb014086@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Finnegan---
On first read, I agree with you, and then of course I start thinking of
complications....

Two aphorisms...

Those who have to claim to be avant-garde, aren't.

(or those who claim to be avant garde, well, okay, they are, but what a
stupid term! ho hum!)



By the time it is a recognizable style it should be laid to rest.

(1. So, does that people shouldn't be playing, singing, or writing, blues
songs anymore?
2.Is the "cult of originality" really always better than "the cult of
imitation"--on a style level at least?
3. Recognizable to whom?

Finnegan
In a message dated 11/9/2004 3:06:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:

yep!

----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Date: Tue, Nov 9, 2004, 5:26 AM


In a message dated 11/8/2004 8:22:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JforJames at aol.com writes:



Ultimately, my itchiness over all this really has to do with my own
discomfort at statements of agency ascribed to any abstraction or group
noun. I cringe when W tells us what terrorists or ???????evil doers???????
or even ???????old Europe??????? are thinking &I cringe at any other
assertion that ???????Group noun is X,??????? regardless of what Group noun
or X might be.


I forgot to attribute the text above...it's from Ron Silliman's blog.
Apparently
his misgiving is limited to political naming. A dismissive moniker like
School
of Quietude would be okay, I guess.
Finnegan _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov  9 20:55:24 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:55:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] DARK ART OF POETRY 
Message-ID: <15a.43368096.2ec2cf0c@aol.com>

http://www.poetrylibrary.org.uk/news/poetryscene/?id=20

THE DARK ART OF POETRY by Don Paterson. The TS Eliot Lecture, commissioned by 
the South Bank Centre, and delivered as part of Poetry International on 
Saturday 30 October 2004 in the Purcell Room.



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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Tue Nov  9 20:58:43 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:58:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
In-Reply-To: <200411100150.iAA1mvLb014086@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200411100150.iAA1mvLb014086@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <20041109205555.D35917@kpaul.spinweb.net>

impromtpu poetry...


a vent,
en garde.
an event,
on guard.
tell me,
please,
whither of
these i am
or whether
i am of an
-other st-
ock.

professor plumb,
in the class-
room, looking
for a political
view, a new shoe,
a new word for gnu.

-kpaul
mallasch.com

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Chris Stroffolino  wrote:

> Finnegan---
> On first read, I agree with you, and then of course I start thinking of
> complications....
>
> Two aphorisms...
>
> Those who have to claim to be avant-garde, aren't.
>
> (or those who claim to be avant garde, well, okay, they are, but what a
> stupid term! ho hum!)
>
>
>
> By the time it is a recognizable style it should be laid to rest.
>
> (1. So, does that people shouldn't be playing, singing, or writing, blues
> songs anymore?
> 2.Is the "cult of originality" really always better than "the cult of
> imitation"--on a style level at least?
> 3. Recognizable to whom?
>
> Finnegan
> In a message dated 11/9/2004 3:06:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
>
> yep!
>
> ----------
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Quietude
> Date: Tue, Nov 9, 2004, 5:26 AM
>
>
> In a message dated 11/8/2004 8:22:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JforJames at aol.com writes:
>
>
>
> Ultimately, my itchiness over all this really has to do with my own
> discomfort at statements of agency ascribed to any abstraction or group
> noun. I cringe when W tells us what terrorists or ???????evil doers???????
> or even ???????old Europe??????? are thinking &I cringe at any other
> assertion that ???????Group noun is X,??????? regardless of what Group noun
> or X might be.
>
>
> I forgot to attribute the text above...it's from Ron Silliman's blog.
> Apparently
> his misgiving is limited to political naming. A dismissive moniker like
> School
> of Quietude would be okay, I guess.
> Finnegan _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>

From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Wed Nov 10 10:05:51 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:05:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Falluja's Defiance of a New Empire"
Message-ID: <s191da17.004@mail.highland.edu>

Worth reading. In the Guardian today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1347540,00.html


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Nov 10 11:17:58 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:17:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rebecca Seiferle - 2004 Lannan Literary Fellowship
Message-ID: <000f01c4c740$db9cb090$7fab3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Awards for Rebecca Seiferle from the Lannan Foundation:

from the New York Times:
Reaping and Writing

Four novelists, two poets and two writers of nonfiction have been chosen by the Lannan Foundation of Santa Fe, N.M., to receive $925,000 in literary awards and fellowships for their work. The poet W. S. Merwin will receive the foundation's lifetime achievement award, carrying a $200,000 prize. Three literary awards of $125,000 each will go to Rikki Ducornet, a novelist in residence at the University of Denver and author of "Gazelle,'' a novel set in Cairo in the 1950's (Alfred A. Knopf, 2003); Peter Reading, a British poet; and Lu?s Alberto Urrea, for his nonfiction work, including "The Devil's Highway'' (Little, Brown, 2004), an account of a group of Mexican men who died in the desert while crossing illegally from Mexico into the United States in 2001. The Lannan Foundation also awarded literary fellowships to Edwidge Danticat, above, a novelist and author of "The Dew Breaker'' (Knopf, 2004); Thomas Frank, a social critic and author of "What's the Matter With Kansas?'' (Metropolitan, 2004); Mavis Gallant, the Canadian novelist and short-story writer; Micheline Aharonian Marcom, born in Saudi Arabia and author of "The Daydreaming Boy'' (Riverhead, 2004), a novel about a survivor of Turkey's Armenian massacres; and Rebecca Seiferle, the author of three books of poetry, including "Bitters'' (Copper Canyon Press, 2001). 

EDWARD WYATT

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/10/arts/10arts.html?pagewanted=all



And on the Lannan site:

2004 Lannan Literary Fellowship 


Rebecca Seiferle has published three books of poetry, is editor/publisher of the literary website, The Drunken Boat, and is a noted translator of major poets from the Spanish language tradition. After many years on staff at San Juan Community College in Farmington, NM, she is currently teaching at Brandeis University. 

Her first book, The Ripped-Out Seam, was published in 1993 to great acclaim and her second, The Music We Dance To, was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize and the 1998 Cecil Hemley Award from the Poetry Society of America. Her latest collection, Bitters, was published in 2001 and won a Pushcart Prize and the Western States Book Award. 



With my Compliments to Rebecca Seiferle, 



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From editor at blazevox.org  Sun Nov  7 21:56:16 2004
From: editor at blazevox.org (Geoffrey Gatza)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:56:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mobilis in Mobili Poetry Prize
Message-ID: <001901c4c53e$85dc0650$864aa145@white2pimprza3>

 
Mobilis in Mobili Poetry Prize

$1000 prize and book publication from BlazeVOX [books]

Moving within the moving element! or changing through change! This is Nemo's motto for his Nautilus and it seems all too fitting for our poetry prize. There is something happening right now in poetry that is very exciting. It is neither a recreation of Stein's salon nor is it a thing of substance to fill the empty souls of man. There is something coming down like the winds outside, the rainfall. Something that speaks like the rains outside. It's all moving but not necessarily moving towards a specific direction. And in this contest we are in hope of promoting this underrated work. 

      3 runners-up receive ebook publication

      Final judge: Kent Johnson

      download guidelines in printable PDF format

The BlazeVOX Prize for Poetry is awarded annually for an original manuscript of poems. The contest is open to poets either with or without previously published books. BlazeVOX [books] Press publishes the winning manuscript, and the author receives a $1,000 award and publication of the winning manuscript. The first three runners-up will be have their winning manuscript published as an electronic book with BlazeVOX [books]. 

      electronic submissions [preferred] 

      email .DOC; .PDF, of .RTF files as an attachment 
      contest at blazevox.org and mail fee to below address

      snail mail to 

         BlazeVOX Poetry Prize
         PO Box 303 
         Buffalo NY 14201-303

      Contest Administration Fee: $20



2004-2005 Submissions: 

All manuscripts will be judged anonymously. Submissions will be accepted between October 1 and January 30, 2005. The award winner will be announced in July/August 2005, and publication scheduled for Spring 2006.

Guidelines

Manuscripts must be paginated and be between 50 and 110 pages in typescript.

Manuscripts will be judged anonymously. Each submission should have two cover pages-one listing the title of the manuscript and the author's name, address, phone number, and email address; and a second page listing only the title. The author's name should not appear after the first cover page.


Electronic Submission entries to:

Send your reading fee of $20 to the snail mail address, below. Then send your manuscript as an email attachment to contest at blazevox.org. Please send the manuscript either as an Adobe pdf file or an MS Word file saved in either, .doc or rich text format (rtf). In your email, give your name and contact information, as well as the title of your manuscript and a short author bio/publication history. Include only the title on your manuscript, with no mention of the author's name. If you wish, include a self-addressed postcard for notification that we have received both your manuscript and fee, as well as the SASE for contest results. Any questions may also be referred to contest at blazevox.org.

*Note: This is not a hypertext or electronic poetry contest. This is a means by which you can send your manuscript to BlazeVOX electronically.


Mail all entries to:

There will be a reading fee of $20. Please do not send cash. The contest is blind-judged, so the author's name and contact information should appear on title page and nowhere else in manuscript. A second title page with only the manuscript title should also be included. Please mail to :

        BlazeVOX Poetry Prize
        PO Box 303 
        Buffalo NY 14201-303


The Press and the board assume no responsibility for lost or damaged manuscripts, and suggest that you retain a copy for your protection.

Ineligible Submissions

1. Manuscripts by more than one author.

2. Entries of more than one manuscript within the same year.

3. Translations.

4. Manuscripts from staff and interns of BlazeVOX and or Starcherone Books, and former BlazeVOX Prize winners. 



** for reasons of streamlining accounting we are gratefully using
Starcherone Books resources to accomplish the financial task for this contest.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 10 13:27:33 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:27:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rebecca Seiferle - 2004 Lannan Literary Fellowship
References: <000f01c4c740$db9cb090$7fab3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <011201c4c752$f2dd6da0$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I don't know about the mainstream no-names, but it certainly is a relief to know that Merwin is still raking in bigMoney prizes.

I just did a presentation in Miami and got $250 and two nights at a Hyatt for it--which came to over seven dollars after I subtracted my expenses, so this is not sour grapes.  

--Bob G.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:17 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Rebecca Seiferle - 2004 Lannan Literary Fellowship


  Awards for Rebecca Seiferle from the Lannan Foundation:

  from the New York Times:
  Reaping and Writing

  Four novelists, two poets and two writers of nonfiction have been chosen by the Lannan Foundation of Santa Fe, N.M., to receive $925,000 in literary awards and fellowships for their work. The poet W. S. Merwin will receive the foundation's lifetime achievement award, carrying a $200,000 prize. Three literary awards of $125,000 each will go to Rikki Ducornet, a novelist in residence at the University of Denver and author of "Gazelle,'' a novel set in Cairo in the 1950's (Alfred A. Knopf, 2003); Peter Reading, a British poet; and Lu?s Alberto Urrea, for his nonfiction work, including "The Devil's Highway'' (Little, Brown, 2004), an account of a group of Mexican men who died in the desert while crossing illegally from Mexico into the United States in 2001. The Lannan Foundation also awarded literary fellowships to Edwidge Danticat, above, a novelist and author of "The Dew Breaker'' (Knopf, 2004); Thomas Frank, a social critic and author of "What's the Matter With Kansas?'' (Metropolitan, 2004); Mavis Gallant, the Canadian novelist and short-story writer; Micheline Aharonian Marcom, born in Saudi Arabia and author of "The Daydreaming Boy'' (Riverhead, 2004), a novel about a survivor of Turkey's Armenian massacres; and Rebecca Seiferle, the author of three books of poetry, including "Bitters'' (Copper Canyon Press, 2001). 

  EDWARD WYATT

  http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/10/arts/10arts.html?pagewanted=all



  And on the Lannan site:

  2004 Lannan Literary Fellowship 


  Rebecca Seiferle has published three books of poetry, is editor/publisher of the literary website, The Drunken Boat, and is a noted translator of major poets from the Spanish language tradition. After many years on staff at San Juan Community College in Farmington, NM, she is currently teaching at Brandeis University. 

  Her first book, The Ripped-Out Seam, was published in 1993 to great acclaim and her second, The Music We Dance To, was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize and the 1998 Cecil Hemley Award from the Poetry Society of America. Her latest collection, Bitters, was published in 2001 and won a Pushcart Prize and the Western States Book Award. 



  With my Compliments to Rebecca Seiferle, 



  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
  Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky




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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 10 13:34:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:34:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mobilis in Mobili Poetry Prize
References: <001901c4c53e$85dc0650$864aa145@white2pimprza3>
Message-ID: <013501c4c753$f2bef3b0$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Or send $19 to the Runaway Spoon Press, Box 495597, Port Charlotte FL 33952.  Not only will you save a dollar but you don't have to send me any poems!  (I figure that's the only sure way to preserve anonymity.)

--Bob G.  
  Mobilis in Mobili Poetry Prize

  $1000 prize and book publication from BlazeVOX [books]

  Moving within the moving element! or changing through change! This is Nemo's motto for his Nautilus and it seems all too fitting for our poetry prize. There is something happening right now in poetry that is very exciting. It is neither a recreation of Stein's salon nor is it a thing of substance to fill the empty souls of man. There is something coming down like the winds outside, the rainfall. Something that speaks like the rains outside. It's all moving but not necessarily moving towards a specific direction. And in this contest we are in hope of promoting this underrated work. 

        3 runners-up receive ebook publication

        Final judge: Kent Johnson

        download guidelines in printable PDF format

  The BlazeVOX Prize for Poetry is awarded annually for an original manuscript of poems. The contest is open to poets either with or without previously published books. BlazeVOX [books] Press publishes the winning manuscript, and the author receives a $1,000 award and publication of the winning manuscript. The first three runners-up will be have their winning manuscript published as an electronic book with BlazeVOX [books]. 

        electronic submissions [preferred] 

        email .DOC; .PDF, of .RTF files as an attachment 
        contest at blazevox.org and mail fee to below address

        snail mail to 

           BlazeVOX Poetry Prize
           PO Box 303 
           Buffalo NY 14201-303

        Contest Administration Fee: $20



  2004-2005 Submissions: 

  All manuscripts will be judged anonymously. Submissions will be accepted between October 1 and January 30, 2005. The award winner will be announced in July/August 2005, and publication scheduled for Spring 2006.

  Guidelines

  Manuscripts must be paginated and be between 50 and 110 pages in typescript.

  Manuscripts will be judged anonymously. Each submission should have two cover pages-one listing the title of the manuscript and the author's name, address, phone number, and email address; and a second page listing only the title. The author's name should not appear after the first cover page.


  Electronic Submission entries to:

  Send your reading fee of $20 to the snail mail address, below. Then send your manuscript as an email attachment to contest at blazevox.org. Please send the manuscript either as an Adobe pdf file or an MS Word file saved in either, .doc or rich text format (rtf). In your email, give your name and contact information, as well as the title of your manuscript and a short author bio/publication history. Include only the title on your manuscript, with no mention of the author's name. If you wish, include a self-addressed postcard for notification that we have received both your manuscript and fee, as well as the SASE for contest results. Any questions may also be referred to contest at blazevox.org.

  *Note: This is not a hypertext or electronic poetry contest. This is a means by which you can send your manuscript to BlazeVOX electronically.


  Mail all entries to:

  There will be a reading fee of $20. Please do not send cash. The contest is blind-judged, so the author's name and contact information should appear on title page and nowhere else in manuscript. A second title page with only the manuscript title should also be included. Please mail to :

          BlazeVOX Poetry Prize
          PO Box 303 
          Buffalo NY 14201-303


  The Press and the board assume no responsibility for lost or damaged manuscripts, and suggest that you retain a copy for your protection.

  Ineligible Submissions

  1. Manuscripts by more than one author.

  2. Entries of more than one manuscript within the same year.

  3. Translations.

  4. Manuscripts from staff and interns of BlazeVOX and or Starcherone Books, and former BlazeVOX Prize winners. 



  ** for reasons of streamlining accounting we are gratefully using
  Starcherone Books resources to accomplish the financial task for this contest.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Wed Nov 10 00:59:07 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:59:07 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Holland's Defiance of a New Empire"
In-Reply-To: <200411101700.iAAH03Am002502@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200411101700.iAAH03Am002502@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100303bdb75e05d054@[204.215.201.213]>

Worth reading. In the International Herald-Tribune today:

http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2004/11/10/news/dutch.html


R i c h a r d  D i l l o n

-- 


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 10 14:23:56 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:23:56 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <54.36fb9b09.2ec3c4cc@aol.com>

Chris, since an aphorism is the literary equivalent of
a finger stab to the chest, one expects disputation.
It's probably an admission of its failure to elaborate
on an aphorism, but let me say on the first
count, that I can't abide the kind of 'innovative poet'
who constantly and ostentatiously must don his mantle
of the 'holy order of the avant-garde'. This is usually
accompanied by a bitter plaint that he's not been
recognized for his genius and radical innovations, 
and that the mainstream (or Official Verse Culture) 
is keeping him & his kind down. 

In second instance, I see your points, but I believe 
that most innovation is laudable only at the point of 
its breaching whatever artistic barrier it confronted. 
After that it begins to fortify its own walls and defences.
It becomes just another subset, or 'circle fort' within
a Venn diagram of the universal set of what art is.
It is then doomed to a cycle of ruination (derivative,
mannerist efforts that are actually kitsch) and repair 
(generally through extension or variation leading to 
a revival of interest in the original impulse).
'Recognized' means merely 'identified' by the
critical community...which is not to say the style
is widely acclaimed, only that it is widely known.

Finnegan



In a message dated 11/9/2004 8:51:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
Finnegan---
On first read, I agree with you, and then of course I start thinking of 
complications....


Two aphorisms...

Those who have to claim to be avant-garde, aren't.

(or those who claim to be avant garde, well, okay, they are, but what a 
stupid term! ho hum!)



By the time it is a recognizable style it should be laid to rest.

(1. So, does that people shouldn't be playing, singing, or writing, blues 
songs anymore?
2.Is the "cult of originality" really always better than "the cult of 
imitation"--on a style level at least?
3. Recognizable to whom?

Finnegan

In a message dated 11/9/2004 3:06:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 10 16:59:27 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:59:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter
Message-ID: <53.1a59681d.2ec3e93f@aol.com>

Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter
 
  A Journal Devoted Exclusively to the Criticism of Poetry
 
This Month 
 
Garrick Davis travels through the Banana Republic of Letters.
 
Garrick Davis interviews the Po-Biz auditors at Foetry.
 
Joan Houlihan proposes legislation:  No Poet Left Behind. 
 
Joan Houlihan shares the results of her MFA graduate survey. 
 
Marc Pietrzykowski considers the reform of the MFA programs. 
 
J. S. Renau reads through a thousand classroom syllabi. 
 
 
 
All reviews and articles can be found at: www.cprw.com
 
 
 
Special Offer 
 
The CPR Archive is the largest online collection of poetry criticism 
available in the world. A year's subscription is $18; a month of access $6. We are 
offering a substantial discount to members of this newsletter, a year's 
subscription for only $12. Please show your support, and help us to continue publishing 
serious poetry criticism, by signing up today.    
 
  
 
Thank you, 
Garrick Davis 
Editor 
 
Contemporary Poetry Review 
PO Box 977
Pacific Grove, CA 93950
USA 
 
email: editor at cprw.com
www.cprw.com 
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From sondheim at panix.com  Wed Nov 10 17:42:20 2004
From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:42:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SILLIMAN AND SONDHEIM,
	NEW TITLES FROM SALT AVAILABLE NOW! (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.61.0411101740490.26428@panix3.panix.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:13:51 +0000
From: Chris Hamilton-Emery <cemery at SALTPUBLISHING.COM>
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: SILLIMAN AND SONDHEIM, NEW TITLES FROM SALT AVAILABLE NOW!

N E W   T I T L E S   F R O M   S A L T
NOVEMBER 2004


UNDER ALBANY
Ron Silliman
1844710513
216 x 140   116pp
GBP8.99   USD14.99

"With startling frankness, Under Albany lifts each ?new sentence? of
Silliman?s Albany to show us what's underneath. The resulting paragraphs are
glimpses not only into Silliman's history, but into that of our times. Each
is a sensitive seismograph recording shocks of social struggle."
-- Rae Armantrout

"Under Albany is the shadow movement of Ron Silliman?s epic of everyday
life, The Alphabet. Silliman provides a set of extended, vividly etched,
mostly autobiographical, meditations on the background for each of the
original 100 sentences of his 1981 poem Albany. This constructivist memoir
provides an exquisitely rich exploration of the relation of context to
reference, subtext to meaning, back story to presented experience, and
composition to poetics. All of Silliman?s work unravels and reforms in this
exemplary and exhilarating act of attention, recollection, and reflection."
-- Charles Bernstein




THE WAYWARD
Alan Sondheim
1844710475
216 x 140mm   252pp
GBP12.99   USD19.99

"Sondheim?s work lives on the page, network, screen, and in live
performance. He inhabits all-too-real imaginary spaces where code and flesh
both taunt and attract each other. We are fortunate to be led, cyborg and
prosthetic, by Alan?s unparalleled skill and sensitivity."
-- Stephanie Strickland

"Sondheim?s diasporic spin sends language whirling in cyberspace and on the
page: his imagination puts us all in a verbal cosmos of exquisite touch and
intellect, meta-commentary (midrash) and wor(l)d-healing.  Welcome to his
world wide web mind."
-- Maria Damon

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 10 19:14:28 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:14:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter
References: <53.1a59681d.2ec3e93f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <021b01c4c783$692d0da0$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I love that "Foetry," James.  Byt the way, what should a poet who uses relatively new techniques call himself--assuming for some reason "poet" isn't enough?  Also, would you not agree that many poets only use traditional techniques (and I consider free verse a traditional technique by now) and some make significant use untradtional techniques.  Don't you feel the two kinds should be distinguished from one another?

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 4:59 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter


  Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter

   

    A Journal Devoted Exclusively to the Criticism of Poetry

   

  This Month 

   

  Garrick Davis travels through the Banana Republic of Letters.

   

  Garrick Davis interviews the Po-Biz auditors at Foetry.

   

  Joan Houlihan proposes legislation:  No Poet Left Behind. 

   

  Joan Houlihan shares the results of her MFA graduate survey. 

   

  Marc Pietrzykowski considers the reform of the MFA programs. 

   

  J. S. Renau reads through a thousand classroom syllabi. 

   

   

   

  All reviews and articles can be found at: www.cprw.com

   

   

   

  Special Offer 

   

  The CPR Archive is the largest online collection of poetry criticism available in the world. A year's subscription is $18; a month of access $6. We are offering a substantial discount to members of this newsletter, a year's subscription for only $12. Please show your support, and help us to continue publishing serious poetry criticism, by signing up today.    

   

    

   

  Thank you, 

  Garrick Davis 

  Editor 

   

  Contemporary Poetry Review 

  PO Box 977

  Pacific Grove, CA 93950

  USA 

   

  email: editor at cprw.com

  www.cprw.com 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 10 20:17:38 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:17:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter
References: <53.1a59681d.2ec3e93f@aol.com>
	<021b01c4c783$692d0da0$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <024e01c4c78c$3cbb6740$41b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Ha, I thought "Foetry" was a misprint for the magazine "Poetry," which I consider a foe of poetry.  I now see that's the name of the yo-yos who think (gad) some poetry judges are corrupt because they give prizes to people they know who write the same kind of crap they do instead of to people they don't know who write the same kind of crap they do.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter


  I love that "Foetry," James.  Byt the way, what should a poet who uses relatively new techniques call himself--assuming for some reason "poet" isn't enough?  Also, would you not agree that many poets only use traditional techniques (and I consider free verse a traditional technique by now) and some make significant use untradtional techniques.  Don't you feel the two kinds should be distinguished from one another?

  --Bob G.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: JforJames at aol.com 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 4:59 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter


    Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter

     

      A Journal Devoted Exclusively to the Criticism of Poetry

     

    This Month 

     

    Garrick Davis travels through the Banana Republic of Letters.

     

    Garrick Davis interviews the Po-Biz auditors at Foetry.

     

    Joan Houlihan proposes legislation:  No Poet Left Behind. 

     

    Joan Houlihan shares the results of her MFA graduate survey. 

     

    Marc Pietrzykowski considers the reform of the MFA programs. 

     

    J. S. Renau reads through a thousand classroom syllabi. 

     

     

     

    All reviews and articles can be found at: www.cprw.com

     

     

     

    Special Offer 

     

    The CPR Archive is the largest online collection of poetry criticism available in the world. A year's subscription is $18; a month of access $6. We are offering a substantial discount to members of this newsletter, a year's subscription for only $12. Please show your support, and help us to continue publishing serious poetry criticism, by signing up today.    

     

      

     

    Thank you, 

    Garrick Davis 

    Editor 

     

    Contemporary Poetry Review 

    PO Box 977

    Pacific Grove, CA 93950

    USA 

     

    email: editor at cprw.com

    www.cprw.com 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 11 00:35:19 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:35:19 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <200411110515.iAB5FUbO276890@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Agree totally on the first point and probably on the second one too,
at least if one's starting from the point of "innovation," on a style level,
but I don't even think that's necessary (to start there). Do you?
Chris


----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Date: Wed, Nov 10, 2004, 11:23 AM


Chris, since an aphorism is the literary equivalent of
a finger stab to the chest, one expects disputation.
It's probably an admission of its failure to elaborate
on an aphorism, but let me say on the first
count, that I can't abide the kind of 'innovative poet'
who constantly and ostentatiously must don his mantle
of the 'holy order of the avant-garde'. This is usually
accompanied by a bitter plaint that he's not been
recognized for his genius and radical innovations,
and that the mainstream (or Official Verse Culture)
is keeping him & his kind down.

In second instance, I see your points, but I believe
that most innovation is laudable only at the point of
its breaching whatever artistic barrier it confronted.
After that it begins to fortify its own walls and defences.
It becomes just another subset, or 'circle fort' within
a Venn diagram of the universal set of what art is.
It is then doomed to a cycle of ruination (derivative,
mannerist efforts that are actually kitsch) and repair
(generally through extension or variation leading to
a revival of interest in the original impulse).
'Recognized' means merely 'identified' by the
critical community...which is not to say the style
is widely acclaimed, only that it is widely known.

Finnegan



In a message dated 11/9/2004 8:51:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
Finnegan---
On first read, I agree with you, and then of course I start thinking of
complications....


Two aphorisms...

Those who have to claim to be avant-garde, aren't.

(or those who claim to be avant garde, well, okay, they are, but what a
stupid term! ho hum!)



By the time it is a recognizable style it should be laid to rest.

(1. So, does that people shouldn't be playing, singing, or writing, blues
songs anymore?
2.Is the "cult of originality" really always better than "the cult of
imitation"--on a style level at least?
3. Recognizable to whom?

Finnegan
In a message dated 11/9/2004 3:06:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 11 10:26:52 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:26:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
Message-ID: <s193306b.002@mail.highland.edu>

"Innovation" of or inside "style," which Chris and James seem to be
focused on, is fine. But there is innovation of *modes, too-- the
creation of new possibilites of relationship between the author and the
work (or the search for ways, perhaps, in which these concepts blur
their conventional boundaries). This is a more substantial kind of
innovation. Again, Pessoa is the suggestive example for poetry, which is
greatly behind the other arts, actually, in these regards (though he
hardly exhausts the possibilities): A poet capable of writing across the
spectrum of "styles," from the most arch-conservative (Reis), to the
most quiet of quietudes (Caeiro), to the most futurist-avant (de
Campos), who radically alters the rules nearly everyone takes for
granted--including the most "radical innovators."

Kent


From chan_jt at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 11 18:09:57 2004
From: chan_jt at hotmail.com (JT Chan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:09:57 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement of New Issue of Zine
Message-ID: <BAY16-F8xtAEHLB8TrB0008dc36@hotmail.com>

The new issue of PoetrySz: demystifying mental illness found at 
http://www.poetrysz.net is now online.  This issue features poetry from 
Steven Dalachinsky, Tim Martin, Jason Heroux, and a few more poets.

Submissions for future issues are welcome.  Send 4-6 poems to 
poetrysz at yahoo.com.  Please read the guidelines first.

Thanks.

The Editor

_________________________________________________________________
Check out news, entertainment and more @  http://xtra.co.nz/broadband



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 11 19:11:12 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:11:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOFTBLOW | Poetry Journal
Message-ID: <d5.1b0d388f.2ec559a0@aol.com>

Subject: SOFTBLOW | Poetry Journal

SOFTBLOW presents 4 new poets:

STEPHEN OLIVER, a transtasman poet & author of twelve
titles of poetry.
+
TAYLOR GRAHAM, a native Californian & a volunteer search-and-
rescue dog handler in the Sierra Nevada.
+
BASIM FURAT, Iraq-born poet whose work here is a translation
from Arabic by Najah Al-jubaily & edited by Mark Pirie.
+
CATHERINE DALY, a poet from Los Angeles with an upcoming
second book, Locket (Tupelo Press, 2004).


Read their poems at http://www.softblow.com now.

~
SOFTBLOW invites you to stop by & let poetry change you.
It is updated every month. If you would like to be featured on
SOFTBLOW, do email us 4-6 poems as well as a biography.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 11 19:19:59 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:19:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
References: <s193306b.002@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <018701c4c84d$59490090$84b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> "Innovation" of or inside "style," which Chris and James seem to be
> focused on, is fine. But there is innovation of *modes, too-- the
> creation of new possibilites of relationship between the author and the
> work (or the search for ways, perhaps, in which these concepts blur
> their conventional boundaries). This is a more substantial kind of
> innovation. Again, Pessoa is the suggestive example for poetry, which is
> greatly behind the other arts, actually, in these regards (though he
> hardly exhausts the possibilities): A poet capable of writing across the
> spectrum of "styles," from the most arch-conservative (Reis), to the
> most quiet of quietudes (Caeiro), to the most futurist-avant (de
> Campos), who radically alters the rules nearly everyone takes for
> granted--including the most "radical innovators."

This may be a valuable ability, but what does it have to do with innovation? 
It sounds like using more than one style in a work.  Joyce in Ulysses 
recapitulating the history of English Literature?  Shakespeare in Loves 
Labours Lost?  What rules are being altered?  Granted, I probably am not 
close to knowing what you mean.

--Bob G. 




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 11 20:14:33 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:14:33 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "being many, seeming one"
Message-ID: <200411120054.iAC0svm9399046@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

Kent--

I think Pessoa's heteronyms are cool, and definitely worth studying--
I think considering different relationships between works and their authors
(or, hell, I suppose one could even say "author construct")
are also fascinating, especially when joined with "writing across the
spectrum of styles." or dealing with "modes,"--I certainly was not
criticizing this in writing to James. If anything, I was just thinking out
loud about the rhetoric of "radical innovation" itself, a rhetoric
that you employ as much as the "radical innovators" you critique.
I just don't see how such a rhetoric actually does anything more
than "I'm more radical than thou...na na na na na na..."

As a related, but different, question, when I think of Pessoa,
I tend to find myself comparing what he does to other ways of thinking
about the relationship of the work to the author, ways that might
seem to you, less radically innovative, for instance--
Whitman's use of the "I", Shakespeare's "negative capability"
(Is "Shakespeare" "Iago" as much as "Imogen?" as Keats claimed?),
or other writers, who maybe not as relentlessly, or SYSTEMATICALLY,
adopted different names or characters, like Laura (Riding) Jackson,
or Amiri Baraka/Le Roi Jones, both of whose name changes, and working
across a large spectrum of styles (in many cases outside of the
genre of what is called "poetry," but on the grounds that one HAS TO
do that in order to be a poet anymore), could be said to reconfigure
"conventional boundaries". Sure, "Shakespeare" is always called
"Shakespeare" (well, when he's not called Bacon for instance),
but "Reis" and "Caeiro" are also called Pessoa? Is it really more
racically innovative? And, if it is, is that really the reason
it's great?
(actually, I just Bob G., has a similar question as the last---
 but, again, one key difference with both Bob G, and you,
 I'm don't argue that on the grounds of "stylistic innovation"
 so whether or not Pessoa is an innovator as you claim,
 or not, as Bob claims, to me, is not so important...)


Chris



 But there is innovation of *modes, too-- the
> creation of new possibilites of relationship between the author and the
> work (or the search for ways, perhaps, in which these concepts blur
> their conventional boundaries). This is a more substantial kind of
> innovation. Again, Pessoa is the suggestive example for poetry, which is
> greatly behind the other arts, actually, in these regards (though he
> hardly exhausts the possibilities): A poet capable of writing across the
> spectrum of "styles," from the most arch-conservative (Reis), to the
> most quiet of quietudes (Caeiro), to the most futurist-avant (de
> Campos), who radically alters the rules nearly everyone takes for
> granted--including the most "radical innovators."
>
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Nov 11 19:58:08 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:58:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement of New Issue of Zine
In-Reply-To: <BAY16-F8xtAEHLB8TrB0008dc36@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY16-F8xtAEHLB8TrB0008dc36@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20041111195657.P17026@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Hey, is this 'The Editor' who never even gave me a form rejection letter? 
Or the one who ended up doing his doctoral thesis on one of my poems? ;)

Seriously, tho, will try to check it out.

-kpaul

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004, JT Chan wrote:

> The new issue of PoetrySz: demystifying mental illness found at 
> http://www.poetrysz.net is now online.  This issue features poetry from 
> Steven Dalachinsky, Tim Martin, Jason Heroux, and a few more poets.
>
> Submissions for future issues are welcome.  Send 4-6 poems to 
> poetrysz at yahoo.com.  Please read the guidelines first.
>
> Thanks.
>
> The Editor
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Check out news, entertainment and more @  http://xtra.co.nz/broadband
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 12 11:25:29 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:25:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Hans Arp, "I am a horse"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEAJJEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


I am a horse


I travel in a train
that is overcrowded
in my compartment
each seat is taken by a woman
with a man sitting on her lap
the air is unbearably tropical
all the travellers have an enormous appetite
they eat without ceasing
suddenly the men
begin to whimper
and long for the maternal breast
they unbutton the women's blouses
and suck the fresh milk to their hearts' content
I alone do not suck
nor am I suckled
nobody sits on my lap
because I am a horse
immense and upright I sit
with my hind-legs up on the train seat
and comfortably lean
on my fore-legs
I whinny a raucous neigh neigh neigh
on my breast glitter
the sex buttons of sex appeal
in neat little rows
like the glittering buttons on uniforms
oh summertime
oh wide wide world

--Hans Arp

tr, Harriett Watts
in *Three Painter-Poets: Arp, Schwitters, Klee*
[Baltimore: Penguin Books, 1974]


Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/





From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov 12 18:56:10 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:56:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quietude
In-Reply-To: <s193306b.002@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s193306b.002@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <6D37586E-3506-11D9-B6D7-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 11, 2004, at 10:26 AM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> "Innovation" of or inside "style," which Chris and James seem to be
> focused on, is fine. But there is innovation of *modes, too-- the
> creation of new possibilites of relationship between the author and the
> work (or the search for ways, perhaps, in which these concepts blur
> their conventional boundaries). This is a more substantial kind of
> innovation. Again, Pessoa is the suggestive example for poetry, which 
> is
> greatly behind the other arts, actually, in these regards (though he
> hardly exhausts the possibilities): A poet capable of writing across 
> the
> spectrum of "styles," from the most arch-conservative (Reis), to the
> most quiet of quietudes (Caeiro), to the most futurist-avant (de
> Campos), who radically alters the rules nearly everyone takes for
> granted--including the most "radical innovators."
>


But Kent, the only really new thing about Pessoa is the heteronyms. 
Poets were once expected to be able to write lyric, epic, pastoral, 
dithyramb, satire, ode, epistolary and more kinds of poetry, and only 
recently has the short lyric poem -- and most of what I've seen of 
Pessoa is short lyric poetry -- become so dominant that it's come to 
define reader's expectations.  Even there, the differences between 
Pessoa's voices pale beside what the great dramatists could do.


Michael



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Nov 13 12:16:18 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:16:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Plath
Message-ID: <BDBB9D81.CE1C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Very interesting article in the *Guardian* from Sylvia Plath's & Ted
Hughes's daughter Frieda about the new facsimile edition of *Ariel* in its
original contents and order.  It will surely cause much comment and debate.

Available via Poetry Daily, or directly at *The Guardian*:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1349076,00.html

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From tad at opus40.org  Sat Nov 13 14:25:42 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:25:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Plath
References: <BDBB9D81.CE1C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <000801c4c9b6$92f4bcc0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

I found the story about the blue plaque especially moving.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:16 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Plath


> Very interesting article in the *Guardian* from Sylvia Plath's & Ted
> Hughes's daughter Frieda about the new facsimile edition of *Ariel* in its
> original contents and order.  It will surely cause much comment and 
> debate.
>
> Available via Poetry Daily, or directly at *The Guardian*:
>
> http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1349076,00.html
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From cosmoetica at poetic.com  Sun Nov 14 15:52:31 2004
From: cosmoetica at poetic.com (Dan Schneider)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 15:52:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
Message-ID: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>

http://www.cosmoetica.com/D34-DES25.htm

D34-DES25
Foetry.com, Chatrooms, & The Decline Of Discourse
Copyright ? by Dan Schneider, 11/14/04

  A few months ago I was emailed by George Dickerson, who requested that I perhaps review his Selected Poems. I told him that while I thought the book, overall, was good, & his poems better, by a long shot, than most of the enjambed prose that is published & wins awards these days that I would not do so. My reason was that over the last couple years I?ve developed a relationship with him- well, more of a penpalsmanship. Therefore it would seem highly unethical of me to review his book of poetry. While I could be objective, point out his strengths & weaknesses as a poet, & explain why, the fact that even a quick glance on my website shows that I have been associated with the man, would kybosh my credibility by merely the hint of impropriety, & no matter how well-reasoned a defense I might give of a poem, it would appear I was merely shilling for a colleague.
  In truth, I?ve never met the man personally. He emailed me out of the blue a few years back, I put some poems of his on my Vers Magnifique page, conducted an interview with him on my Omniversica radio show, & have averaged 3-4 phone conversations with him the last few years. Now, anyone who attended my Uptown Poetry Group knows that I spare no 1- not me, my wife, nor friends- from criticism of their work, & am confident I could have elucidated things pro & con in Dickerson?s book. But, the fact is I was aware of the seeming conflict of interest, as well as its easily reasoned seeming hypocrisy were I to do so. The same is rarely true in outposts other than Cosmoetica. Tales of cronyism in the art world are legion. Allen Ginsberg, for example, is known to have championed the work of any artists he liked, provided he stain their lips with his essence. The whole concept of schools or ?isms is based upon promoting someone?s work for its similarity to your own, or work that you like, rather than any objective stab at excellence.
  Why do you think that Beatnik poets rave about their kin, Languagists rave about their kith, & New Formalists echo their literary forebears in anything they deem too vers libre. The fact is that there can be good poetry found in any school or ?ism, but its excellence will have to do with a handful of things not exclusive to that school- a mnemonic image or phrase, good music- provided by alliteration, assonance, rime, good enjambment, & the avoidance or subversion of clich?s. All great poetry succeeds using these, & a select few other tools, in an infinite array of ways, juxtapositions, etc., while all bad poetry fails for the lack of those reasons. In short, greatness is its own company.
  A great poem by Tu Fu, John Donne, Pablo Neruda, Gwendolyn Brooks, me, or a poet yet to be born, will fundamentally share far more qualities with each other than they will with lesser poems by those same poets, or poets in their particular school. That so few poets & critics have ever recognized this fundamental point is why there has always been such vicious sniping (add in my theory of the Divine Inspiration Fallacy as well). Lacking an internal barometer by which to measure poems of different stripes the poets almost invariably fall back on attacking their peers & competitors in ad hominem ways, not by exposing the weaknesses in their poetry.
  In the last decade or so since the advent of the Internet there have been 2 interesting trends- the explosion of poetry websites & of online chatrooms. Often, these 2 volatile entities come together & the result is not pretty. There are millions of poetry websites out there; almost all are worthless- be they personal poetry pages, resource centers, or wannabe magazines; a form that seems utterly antithetical to the online possibilities of the media. As I write this piece Cosmoetica is listed as the #1 Poetry website online by a major ranking service- Ranking.com. Now, some may dispute that other, more well-funded sites- like Poets & Writer?s magazine, Poetry magazine, etc.- get more hits & are not included in this particular batch, & others may say that such ranking services have biases (I agree, & take such with a grain of salt, as many?s the time I?ve seen my site get inundated with hits, only to see my ?ranking? slip- huh?), but the fact remains that Cosmoetica has to be considered in the top tenth of a percent of poetry websites in terms of hits. The most obvious way I have achieved this is by offering something unique- a website that features quality contemporary poetry & its criticism. No other site online, that I know of, does this. Thus, I have gotten a readership of people who love good poetry & criticism, while all the poseurs, doggerelists, & phonies spend their time troving the 10+ million other poetry sites online. Even if I get a readership of only that tenth of that percent that?s a huge chunk compared to most sites that might crow about getting a millionth of a percent.
  As for chatrooms- thankfully I am not a regular trover of them, nor a websurfer. I go online for 2 reasons- email, & to search out information for works of art I?m creating, or essays. Most chatrooms follow simple arcs. Someone says something, another person attacks that, there is a personalized argument, & others join in the fray. Usually the posters are people with no lives & they spend inordinate amounts of time sniping. Along with bloggers, chatroom mavens are among the sorriest lot of folk going- especially when the chatrooms have to do with art. I just wonder what could be accomplished by these chatters (& bloggers) if their energies were focused more on creative ventures.
  Let me return to my opening thrust on being aware of the appearance of impropriety, & its lack in the poetry world. Recently, I learned of a website called Foetry.com , in a New York Times piece of a few weeks back that lauded it, Cosmoetica, & a few other sites as notable poetic pit stops. Foetry?s main claim to fame is as self-described watchdogs regarding the ethics of poetry. In a sense, its mission is to arts ethics what Cosmoetica?s is to arts excellence. They hope to weed out poetry contest scams, & cronyism between judges, editors, & former colleagues & students....
-- 
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 14 16:21:34 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:21:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <00ca01c4ca8f$eb9633c0$21b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Dan, I totally disagree with you.  If you review a friend's poems favorably 
and support your judgement with quotations and intelligent arguments, your 
friendship is irrelevant.  If you review ANYBODY'S poems favorably and fail 
to support your judgement, then a reader should ignore your review.  If he 
doesn't, he's a moron, and who cares if he's persuaded by your incompetent 
review.  Ditto if you review someone's poems unfavorably.

And if you want to be really ethical, you probably shouldn't review, because 
there are all sorts of unethical reasons you might review the poetry of 
someone you don't personally know favorably or unfavorably.  The point is, 
what you say in your review is what counts, not your motives for saying what 
you do.

I would add that by far the best commentary on poets has almost always been 
by critics who personally knew the poet they were discussing, the way 
Coleridge knew Wordsworth.

But if you want to be a proper mainsteamer, by all means worry about your 
ethics, not the content of your reviews.

--Bob G. 




From tad at opus40.org  Sun Nov 14 16:43:34 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:43:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c4ca93$00116600$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Doesn't feel like a conflict to me.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Schneider" <cosmoetica at poetic.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 3:52 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy


http://www.cosmoetica.com/D34-DES25.htm

D34-DES25
Foetry.com, Chatrooms, & The Decline Of Discourse
Copyright ? by Dan Schneider, 11/14/04

  A few months ago I was emailed by George Dickerson, who requested that I 
perhaps review his Selected Poems. I told him that while I thought the book, 
overall, was good, & his poems better, by a long shot, than most of the 
enjambed prose that is published & wins awards these days that I would not 
do so. My reason was that over the last couple years I've developed a 
relationship with him- well, more of a penpalsmanship. Therefore it would 
seem highly unethical of me to review his book of poetry. While I could be 
objective, point out his strengths & weaknesses as a poet, & explain why, 
the fact that even a quick glance on my website shows that I have been 
associated with the man, would kybosh my credibility by merely the hint of 
impropriety, & no matter how well-reasoned a defense I might give of a poem, 
it would appear I was merely shilling for a colleague.
  In truth, I've never met the man personally. He emailed me out of the blue 
a few years back, I put some poems of his on my Vers Magnifique page, 
conducted an interview with him on my Omniversica radio show, & have 
averaged 3-4 phone conversations with him the last few years. Now, anyone 
who attended my Uptown Poetry Group knows that I spare no 1- not me, my 
wife, nor friends- from criticism of their work, & am confident I could have 
elucidated things pro & con in Dickerson's book. But, the fact is I was 
aware of the seeming conflict of interest, as well as its easily reasoned 
seeming hypocrisy were I to do so. The same is rarely true in outposts other 
than Cosmoetica. Tales of cronyism in the art world are legion. Allen 
Ginsberg, for example, is known to have championed the work of any artists 
he liked, provided he stain their lips with his essence. The whole concept 
of schools or -isms is based upon promoting someone's work for its 
similarity to your own, or work that you like, rather than any objective 
stab at excellence.
  Why do you think that Beatnik poets rave about their kin, Languagists rave 
about their kith, & New Formalists echo their literary forebears in anything 
they deem too vers libre. The fact is that there can be good poetry found in 
any school or -ism, but its excellence will have to do with a handful of 
things not exclusive to that school- a mnemonic image or phrase, good music- 
provided by alliteration, assonance, rime, good enjambment, & the avoidance 
or subversion of clich?s. All great poetry succeeds using these, & a select 
few other tools, in an infinite array of ways, juxtapositions, etc., while 
all bad poetry fails for the lack of those reasons. In short, greatness is 
its own company.
  A great poem by Tu Fu, John Donne, Pablo Neruda, Gwendolyn Brooks, me, or 
a poet yet to be born, will fundamentally share far more qualities with each 
other than they will with lesser poems by those same poets, or poets in 
their particular school. That so few poets & critics have ever recognized 
this fundamental point is why there has always been such vicious sniping 
(add in my theory of the Divine Inspiration Fallacy as well). Lacking an 
internal barometer by which to measure poems of different stripes the poets 
almost invariably fall back on attacking their peers & competitors in ad 
hominem ways, not by exposing the weaknesses in their poetry.
  In the last decade or so since the advent of the Internet there have been 
2 interesting trends- the explosion of poetry websites & of online 
chatrooms. Often, these 2 volatile entities come together & the result is 
not pretty. There are millions of poetry websites out there; almost all are 
worthless- be they personal poetry pages, resource centers, or wannabe 
magazines; a form that seems utterly antithetical to the online 
possibilities of the media. As I write this piece Cosmoetica is listed as 
the #1 Poetry website online by a major ranking service- Ranking.com. Now, 
some may dispute that other, more well-funded sites- like Poets & Writer's 
magazine, Poetry magazine, etc.- get more hits & are not included in this 
particular batch, & others may say that such ranking services have biases (I 
agree, & take such with a grain of salt, as many's the time I've seen my 
site get inundated with hits, only to see my 'ranking' slip- huh?), but the 
fact remains that Cosmoetica has to be considered in the top tenth of a 
percent of poetry websites in terms of hits. The most obvious way I have 
achieved this is by offering something unique- a website that features 
quality contemporary poetry & its criticism. No other site online, that I 
know of, does this. Thus, I have gotten a readership of people who love good 
poetry & criticism, while all the poseurs, doggerelists, & phonies spend 
their time troving the 10+ million other poetry sites online. Even if I get 
a readership of only that tenth of that percent that's a huge chunk compared 
to most sites that might crow about getting a millionth of a percent.
  As for chatrooms- thankfully I am not a regular trover of them, nor a 
websurfer. I go online for 2 reasons- email, & to search out information for 
works of art I'm creating, or essays. Most chatrooms follow simple arcs. 
Someone says something, another person attacks that, there is a personalized 
argument, & others join in the fray. Usually the posters are people with no 
lives & they spend inordinate amounts of time sniping. Along with bloggers, 
chatroom mavens are among the sorriest lot of folk going- especially when 
the chatrooms have to do with art. I just wonder what could be accomplished 
by these chatters (& bloggers) if their energies were focused more on 
creative ventures.
  Let me return to my opening thrust on being aware of the appearance of 
impropriety, & its lack in the poetry world. Recently, I learned of a 
website called Foetry.com , in a New York Times piece of a few weeks back 
that lauded it, Cosmoetica, & a few other sites as notable poetic pit stops. 
Foetry's main claim to fame is as self-described watchdogs regarding the 
ethics of poetry. In a sense, its mission is to arts ethics what 
Cosmoetica's is to arts excellence. They hope to weed out poetry contest 
scams, & cronyism between judges, editors, & former colleagues & 
students....
-- 
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Nov 14 16:55:20 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:55:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
In-Reply-To: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <E0970DD3-3687-11D9-8787-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Nov 14, 2004, at 3:52 PM, Dan Schneider wrote:

<snipping his usual self-serving crap>

Why did you sign up, Dan? Do you really want to join the rest of us 
"over-the-hill doggerelists from the faded postmodern movements- like 
LANGUAGE poetry, concrete poetry, as well as refugee Beatniks & 
hipsters" who "say nothing & say it poorly- both in poetry & their 
critical thinking on it "?

I can't speak for the other "over-the-hill doggerelists," but, as far 
as I'm concerned, once you've learned the difference between a chatroom 
and a listserve you can either join the conversation -- if you're  
capable -- or go "troving" elsewhere.







From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov 15 08:41:13 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:41:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c4cb18$c6844f70$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Poetry, language
& linguistics
(revisiting Ruth Altmann)

Micropublishing & the 
self-published chapbook:
Tinker Greene?s
Man Going to His Doom

Micropublishing & 
magazines ? 
Primary Writing
& the poetry of Norma Cole

The diamond of resentment:
Edward Dorn
& his Chicago Review festschrift

Ruth Altmann ? a new
New York School poet

4 more years?
Where do we go from here?

Joe Brainard ?
A new memoir by Ron Padgett
& the role of memoirs
in the NY School

Moolaad? ?
Resistance to female circumcision
in Burkina Faso
(a film by Ousmane Sembene)

Voting as tho 
the nation?s future
depended on it
 
How do I decide 
what?s right for me?

Letting ?the Outside? 
?dictate? 	
?the poem? ?
Mark Tursi on a Spicerian side of poetics

K Silem Mohammad?s 
?A Language Poetry Dossier? ?
Googlism vs. Google

The Motorcycle Diaries ?
Che the wide-eye med student

So where Goest Cole Swensen?

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 15 10:11:06 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:11:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
	<E0970DD3-3687-11D9-8787-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00db01c4cb25$5535bc70$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and my 
poetry and criticism (and on Dan's excellence as a critic and poet).  It was 
posted over a month ago, but I never knew about it till this morning.  It 
should amuse those of you who aren't too keen on me or my work.  It will 
definitely amuse those few of you who have any respect for me and my work.

I welcome such attacks, however stupid, by the way.  I feel a problem with 
New-Poetry is that no one cares enough about any thing to make them, on me 
or anyone else.  I would agree that all the personal stuff is mostly 
unneeded and unentertaining, but a reasonable amount of it is fun.  Anyway, 
I'll be getting back at Dan, never fear--at my blog, not here.

--Bob G. 




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 15 10:21:11 2004
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (terzarima at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:21:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
Message-ID: <142410-2200411115152111619@M2W076.mail2web.com>

Is this the infamous Dan Schneider, the mutant of Minneapolis?  Heavens.
Doesn't he attack absolutely everyone, usually in a hopeless ad hominem
riddled way?

Suzanne


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:11:06 -0500
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy


Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and my 
poetry and criticism (and on Dan's excellence as a critic and poet).  It
was 
posted over a month ago, but I never knew about it till this morning.  It 
should amuse those of you who aren't too keen on me or my work.  It will 
definitely amuse those few of you who have any respect for me and my work.

I welcome such attacks, however stupid, by the way.  I feel a problem with 
New-Poetry is that no one cares enough about any thing to make them, on me 
or anyone else.  I would agree that all the personal stuff is mostly 
unneeded and unentertaining, but a reasonable amount of it is fun.  Anyway, 
I'll be getting back at Dan, never fear--at my blog, not here.

--Bob G. 


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Nov 15 10:27:46 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:27:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The America Lost Project
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A46B@mail.ripon.edu>

Appropriately enough, I don't know the origin of this project, or who wrote
the following.  Just passing on an interesting proposal.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> YOU ARE INVITED to be part of the "America Lost Project."
> 
> What do these words conjure up? Do you hear an echo of "Paradise Lost?" Is
> it America itself which is wandering in a dark place looking for the path
> from which it has strayed? Or do the words demand completion as in:
> "America lost ......something or other"--its joy? its principles? its
> bedrock beliefs? its commitments?
> 
> What we envisage is an outpouring of creative work -- work that elaborates
> on the two simple words, "America Lost." Poems, stories, paintings,
> sculptures, songs, dances, operas, films,, photographs, theater -- you
> name it, it can take its place in a panoply of responses.
> 
> We do not encourage you to abandon your own style or feel obliged to adopt
> soap-box speech-making or poster art, unless, of course, that IS your
> chosen art. Rather, we hope for new work that combines artistic excellence
> with the passion inspired by America's plight. Think narrative, metaphor,
> image, character, movement... think a gorgeous landscape or a gruesome
> clear cut; a fairy tale in verse or the solo dance of the devil; a song
> about a river in Alaska or an opera with a chorus of evangelicals. As an
> artist, you are asked only to meditate on the direction in which this
> nation seems to be headed and let that inform your artistic work.
> 
> The America Lost Project is not intended to be collected, compiled or
> presented as a collection in any one place, but rather to filter out into
> diverse publications, galleries, theaters, living rooms, city plazas, etc.
> It should be recognizable as a "project" only by the appearance, somewhere
> in the work, of the words, "AMERICA LOST." This might be a title (a
> profusion of works with the same title would be wonderful) or it might be
> a subtitle added to your own ("America Lost -- the Grandmother Speaks";
> "Wall Street: America Lost"; "America Lost: The River Runs Dry" etc etc).
> It might not appear in the title at all, but be incorporated into the work
> itself in a prominent or very subtle way.
> 
> The project will belong to nobody. Word may spread fast, thanks to the
> internet, but its originators will remain anonymous. No doubt, if it
> should catch on, someone will try to make a buck off it by producing
> anthologies, shows, even festivals on the theme. But the intention is for
> it to remain open and unfettered -- a free spirit.
> 
> Naturally, your individual creative works remain yours and yours alone to
> do what you wish with. The America Lost Project may spread its tentacles
> far and wide but they will all be part of the one body that is its common
> name.
> 


From terzarima at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 15 10:32:37 2004
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (terzarima at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:32:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
Message-ID: <208120-2200411115153237686@M2W043.mail2web.com>


Found it. Let us all praise Google.

And as usual, I had trouble even getting through the first two paragraphs
of Dan's rambling prose. I guess when Dan wants to tell the reader what he
is thinking, he is going to tell.... everything. He. Is. Thinking. Getting
through to the fourth paragraph felt a little like watching a four car pile
up in slo-mo during a snow storm.

Mumbler, eh? Do ya think he might be projecting just a tad?

I would laugh at it, but I think this guy really does have a problem that
has nothing to do with poetry.


Suzanne






--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





From tad at opus40.org  Mon Nov 15 10:47:55 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:47:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com><E0970DD3-3687-11D9-8787-000393C29586@mac.com>
	<00db01c4cb25$5535bc70$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <001801c4cb2a$7b351d80$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Bob...he's attacking you? Oh, well, then, maybe he's OK.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy


> Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and my 
> poetry and criticism (and on Dan's excellence as a critic and poet).  It 
> was posted over a month ago, but I never knew about it till this morning. 
> It should amuse those of you who aren't too keen on me or my work.  It 
> will definitely amuse those few of you who have any respect for me and my 
> work.
>
> I welcome such attacks, however stupid, by the way.  I feel a problem with 
> New-Poetry is that no one cares enough about any thing to make them, on me 
> or anyone else.  I would agree that all the personal stuff is mostly 
> unneeded and unentertaining, but a reasonable amount of it is fun. 
> Anyway, I'll be getting back at Dan, never fear--at my blog, not here.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Nov 15 11:11:29 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:11:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
In-Reply-To: <001801c4cb2a$7b351d80$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <41988EE1.20174.ADF12F@localhost>

> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> > Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and
> > my poetry and criticism 
> > I welcome such attacks ... <

What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame 
people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling. 

Marcus




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon Nov 15 13:33:39 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:33:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
In-Reply-To: <41988EE1.20174.ADF12F@localhost>
References: <41988EE1.20174.ADF12F@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411151326210.13056@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

I wonder about the sparring that goes on here...my mind starts to
try to form loose, possibly irresponsible theories of men (yes, that was
the word) and schools of poetry/thought and public spectacle of it -
is there a sporting aspect of this?  Are the rest of us onlookers
in the schoolyard when the fight breaks out?  Perhaps a literary coliseum -
Is this kind of an ancient animal thing manifesting in the literary world??

Is there a reason these little squabbles and barbs are shared with
hundreds of onlookers and not backchanneled?  I mean the point where
it gets mean, and not ideological?


On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Marcus Bales wrote:

> > From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> > > Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and
> > > my poetry and criticism
> > > I welcome such attacks ... <
>
> What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame
> people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling.
>
> Marcus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Nov 15 13:54:40 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:54:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one
Message-ID: <s198a727.043@mail.highland.edu>

Just up here again after a weekend away. A few minutes between classes
here. Thanks to Chris, Mike, and Bob for responses.

Mike and Bob: Indeed, I am proposing Pessoa's intricate stagings of
authorship--his heteronyms--as the primary index of his radical
"innovation," not the various "styles" of his various authorships. The
point regarding Pessoa's ability to move easily within the context of
heteronymity was to point out that "style" could be ultimately regarded
as a second order feature of "innovation." That is, it is possible to be
more avant the "avant-garde," whatever that concept is worth (probably
not much), even while writing in the most traditional forms available.
There is Official Poetry Culture and there is Official Poetry Culture...


And Chris, I am all for the different kinds of "thinking about the
relationship of work to author" that you mention, and I'm a big time
Whitman fan myself, not to mention "Shakespeare" fan (!). Language
poetry, actually, has made rather energetic gestures in this
"questioning" direction, though always stopping (very awkwardly, in my
opinion--see recent Watten essays focusing on "authorship," for example)
at the point where the theoretical implications might take practice
beyond conventional protocols of presentation. Silliman, to his credit,
has realized the contradiction between implications of earlier Langpo
theory and the group's inability to break from traditional/official
conceptions of Authorship, and has thus retreated of late into an open
advocacy of authorial identity as "marketing brand"--a more candid
partisan of the benefits of Author Function than the Board members of
the Academy of American Poets. Thus, his arguments for poetic "advance"
are almost completely reduced to a fetishistic focus on textual
effects-- which is fine, of course, but a quite limited way of thinking
about poetry's total possibilities (aesthetic as well as social) in my
opinion. 

I hope it's clear I'm not arguing for any kind of either/or route of
authorship. I'm simpy suggesting there are other, largely unexplored
areas of poetic geography--ones we might begin to enter by challenging
and reconfiguring standard, ritualized models of attribution. 

Kent

*

Kent--

I think Pessoa's heteronyms are cool, and definitely worth studying--
I think considering different relationships between works and their
authors
(or, hell, I suppose one could even say "author construct")
are also fascinating, especially when joined with "writing across the
spectrum of styles." or dealing with "modes,"--I certainly was not
criticizing this in writing to James. If anything, I was just thinking
out
loud about the rhetoric of "radical innovation" itself, a rhetoric
that you employ as much as the "radical innovators" you critique.
I just don't see how such a rhetoric actually does anything more
than "I'm more radical than thou...na na na na na na..."

As a related, but different, question, when I think of Pessoa,
I tend to find myself comparing what he does to other ways of thinking
about the relationship of the work to the author, ways that might
seem to you, less radically innovative, for instance--
Whitman's use of the "I", Shakespeare's "negative capability"
(Is "Shakespeare" "Iago" as much as "Imogen?" as Keats claimed?),
or other writers, who maybe not as relentlessly, or SYSTEMATICALLY,
adopted different names or characters, like Laura (Riding) Jackson,
or Amiri Baraka/Le Roi Jones, both of whose name changes, and working
across a large spectrum of styles (in many cases outside of the
genre of what is called "poetry," but on the grounds that one HAS TO
do that in order to be a poet anymore), could be said to reconfigure
"conventional boundaries". Sure, "Shakespeare" is always called
"Shakespeare" (well, when he's not called Bacon for instance),
but "Reis" and "Caeiro" are also called Pessoa? Is it really more
racically innovative? And, if it is, is that really the reason
it's great?
(actually, I just Bob G., has a similar question as the last---
 but, again, one key difference with both Bob G, and you,
 I'm don't argue that on the grounds of "stylistic innovation"
 so whether or not Pessoa is an innovator as you claim,
 or not, as Bob claims, to me, is not so important...)


Chris



 But there is innovation of *modes, too-- the
> creation of new possibilites of relationship between the author and
the
> work (or the search for ways, perhaps, in which these concepts blur
> their conventional boundaries). This is a more substantial kind of
> innovation. Again, Pessoa is the suggestive example for poetry, which
is
> greatly behind the other arts, actually, in these regards (though he
> hardly exhausts the possibilities): A poet capable of writing across
the
> spectrum of "styles," from the most arch-conservative (Reis), to the
> most quiet of quietudes (Caeiro), to the most futurist-avant (de
> Campos), who radically alters the rules nearly everyone takes for
> granted--including the most "radical innovators."
>
> Kent



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Nov 15 14:34:07 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:34:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: being many, seeming one
Message-ID: <s198b07d.086@mail.highland.edu>

I'd meant to put the title Chris S. had on his previous post. I have no
idea what the one I put on my last could mean!

Kent


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov 15 14:41:07 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:41:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: being many, seeming one
References: <s198b07d.086@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <000b01c4cb4b$0daf1420$fda83252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I shouldn't answer because I have a lot of work here to finish, but I want
to say that by absurd, your former title is excellent, only by becoming many
can one become one. Great!


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:34 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: being many, seeming one


> I'd meant to put the title Chris S. had on his previous post. I have no
> idea what the one I put on my last could mean!
>
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 15 19:17:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:17:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <142410-2200411115152111619@M2W076.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c4cb71$ae4580b0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Is this the infamous Dan Schneider, the mutant of Minneapolis?  Heavens.
> Doesn't he attack absolutely everyone, usually in a hopeless ad hominem
> riddled way?
> 
> Suzanne

That's the Dan.  But he attacked me more than anyone else!!!!!

--Bob G.



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Nov 15 19:21:49 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:21:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
In-Reply-To: <019c01c4cb71$ae4580b0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <142410-2200411115152111619@M2W076.mail2web.com>
	<019c01c4cb71$ae4580b0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20041115192112.I42354@kpaul.spinweb.net>

*sniff* he attacked MUG too for some floetry site i'd never heard 'uv 
before.

i'm not sure if i'll be able to recover... ;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Bob Grumman wrote:

>> Is this the infamous Dan Schneider, the mutant of Minneapolis?  Heavens.
>> Doesn't he attack absolutely everyone, usually in a hopeless ad hominem
>> riddled way?
>> 
>> Suzanne
>
> That's the Dan.  But he attacked me more than anyone else!!!!!
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 15 19:23:51 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:23:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <208120-2200411115153237686@M2W043.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <01a501c4cb72$8ce2a370$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Found it. Let us all praise Google.
>
> And as usual, I had trouble even getting through the first two paragraphs
> of Dan's rambling prose. I guess when Dan wants to tell the reader what he
> is thinking, he is going to tell.... everything. He. Is. Thinking. Getting
> through to the fourth paragraph felt a little like watching a four car 
> pile
> up in slo-mo during a snow storm.
>
> Mumbler, eh? Do ya think he might be projecting just a tad?
>
> I would laugh at it, but I think this guy really does have a problem that
> has nothing to do with poetry.
>
>
> Suzanne

I think that's what interests me about him.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 15 19:32:40 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:32:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <41988EE1.20174.ADF12F@localhost>
Message-ID: <01c801c4cb73$c8745040$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> > Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and
>> > my poetry and criticism
>> > I welcome such attacks ... <
>
> What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame
> people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling.
>
> Marcus

Oh, I don't flame just people who attack me, Marcus, I flame EVERYone.  And 
my standard mode is not name-calling, my ONLY mode is name-calling.

Just to set the record straight.  (No more from me to Marcus, James.)

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 15 19:48:00 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:48:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <41988EE1.20174.ADF12F@localhost>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0411151326210.13056@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <020001c4cb75$ec97f3d0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>I wonder about the sparring that goes on here...my mind starts to
> try to form loose, possibly irresponsible theories of men (yes, that was
> the word) and schools of poetry/thought and public spectacle of it -
> is there a sporting aspect of this?  Are the rest of us onlookers
> in the schoolyard when the fight breaks out?  Perhaps a literary 
> coliseum -
> Is this kind of an ancient animal thing manifesting in the literary 
> world??
>
> Is there a reason these little squabbles and barbs are shared with
> hundreds of onlookers and not backchanneled?  I mean the point where
> it gets mean, and not ideological?

I doubt many of us think about "hundreds of onlookers"--or want to bother 
backchannelling.  And, hey, what fun is it to humiliate someone in private?

--Bob the literary terrorist Grumman 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Mon Nov 15 21:03:49 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:03:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Form of Women
Message-ID: <s1990bb8.028@mail.highland.edu>

If I'd written only one poem in my life, and it was this one, I would
feel I had done something great in poetry:

*

A Form of Women


I have come far enough 
from where I was not before
to have seen the things
looking in at me through the open door

and have walked tonight
by myself
to see the moonlight 
and see it as trees

and shapes more fearful
because I feared
what I did not know
but have wanted to know.

My face is my own, I thought.
But you have seen it
turn into a thousand years.
I watched you cry.

I could not touch you.
I wanted very much to 
touch you
but could not.

If it is dark 
when this is given to you
have care for its content
when the moon shines.

My face is my own.
My hands are my own.
My mouth is my own
but I am not.

Moon, moon,
when you leave me alone
all the darkness is 
an utter blackness,

a pit of fear,
a stench,
hands unreasonable
never to touch.

But I love you.
Do you love me?
What to say
when you see me.



From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Mon Nov 15 22:32:01 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:32:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
In-Reply-To: <020001c4cb75$ec97f3d0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <41988EE1.20174.ADF12F@localhost>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0411151326210.13056@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
	<020001c4cb75$ec97f3d0$8bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411152230160.19971@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

Would all terrorism be modeled after these, um, paradigms... the world
would be fairly safe, if a little peevish...




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 16 06:16:56 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:16:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one
References: <s198a727.043@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <007201c4cbd1$fa3d6ef0$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Kent, I'm afraid I don't follow you.  Just what is this heteronymity that 
Pessoa is practicing.  It seems to me it is writing poems in different 
styles and giving them different pseudo-authors.  As someone else mentioned, 
it's like writing dialogue for different characters in a play.  Or Brownings 
dramatic monlogues.  What is innovative about it?  What does it add to a 
given poem that's different from reading a piece of light verse by XJ 
Kennedy, then a serious piece of verse by the same poet, for example?

--Bob G.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:54 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one


> Just up here again after a weekend away. A few minutes between classes
> here. Thanks to Chris, Mike, and Bob for responses.
>
> Mike and Bob: Indeed, I am proposing Pessoa's intricate stagings of
> authorship--his heteronyms--as the primary index of his radical
> "innovation," not the various "styles" of his various authorships. The
> point regarding Pessoa's ability to move easily within the context of
> heteronymity was to point out that "style" could be ultimately regarded
> as a second order feature of "innovation." That is, it is possible to be
> more avant the "avant-garde," whatever that concept is worth (probably
> not much), even while writing in the most traditional forms available.
> There is Official Poetry Culture and there is Official Poetry Culture...
>
>
> And Chris, I am all for the different kinds of "thinking about the
> relationship of work to author" that you mention, and I'm a big time
> Whitman fan myself, not to mention "Shakespeare" fan (!). Language
> poetry, actually, has made rather energetic gestures in this
> "questioning" direction, though always stopping (very awkwardly, in my
> opinion--see recent Watten essays focusing on "authorship," for example)
> at the point where the theoretical implications might take practice
> beyond conventional protocols of presentation. Silliman, to his credit,
> has realized the contradiction between implications of earlier Langpo
> theory and the group's inability to break from traditional/official
> conceptions of Authorship, and has thus retreated of late into an open
> advocacy of authorial identity as "marketing brand"--a more candid
> partisan of the benefits of Author Function than the Board members of
> the Academy of American Poets. Thus, his arguments for poetic "advance"
> are almost completely reduced to a fetishistic focus on textual
> effects-- which is fine, of course, but a quite limited way of thinking
> about poetry's total possibilities (aesthetic as well as social) in my
> opinion.
>
> I hope it's clear I'm not arguing for any kind of either/or route of
> authorship. I'm simpy suggesting there are other, largely unexplored
> areas of poetic geography--ones we might begin to enter by challenging
> and reconfiguring standard, ritualized models of attribution.
>
> Kent
>
> *
>
> Kent--
>
> I think Pessoa's heteronyms are cool, and definitely worth studying--
> I think considering different relationships between works and their
> authors
> (or, hell, I suppose one could even say "author construct")
> are also fascinating, especially when joined with "writing across the
> spectrum of styles." or dealing with "modes,"--I certainly was not
> criticizing this in writing to James. If anything, I was just thinking
> out
> loud about the rhetoric of "radical innovation" itself, a rhetoric
> that you employ as much as the "radical innovators" you critique.
> I just don't see how such a rhetoric actually does anything more
> than "I'm more radical than thou...na na na na na na..."
>
> As a related, but different, question, when I think of Pessoa,
> I tend to find myself comparing what he does to other ways of thinking
> about the relationship of the work to the author, ways that might
> seem to you, less radically innovative, for instance--
> Whitman's use of the "I", Shakespeare's "negative capability"
> (Is "Shakespeare" "Iago" as much as "Imogen?" as Keats claimed?),
> or other writers, who maybe not as relentlessly, or SYSTEMATICALLY,
> adopted different names or characters, like Laura (Riding) Jackson,
> or Amiri Baraka/Le Roi Jones, both of whose name changes, and working
> across a large spectrum of styles (in many cases outside of the
> genre of what is called "poetry," but on the grounds that one HAS TO
> do that in order to be a poet anymore), could be said to reconfigure
> "conventional boundaries". Sure, "Shakespeare" is always called
> "Shakespeare" (well, when he's not called Bacon for instance),
> but "Reis" and "Caeiro" are also called Pessoa? Is it really more
> racically innovative? And, if it is, is that really the reason
> it's great?
> (actually, I just Bob G., has a similar question as the last---
> but, again, one key difference with both Bob G, and you,
> I'm don't argue that on the grounds of "stylistic innovation"
> so whether or not Pessoa is an innovator as you claim,
> or not, as Bob claims, to me, is not so important...)
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> But there is innovation of *modes, too-- the
>> creation of new possibilites of relationship between the author and
> the
>> work (or the search for ways, perhaps, in which these concepts blur
>> their conventional boundaries). This is a more substantial kind of
>> innovation. Again, Pessoa is the suggestive example for poetry, which
> is
>> greatly behind the other arts, actually, in these regards (though he
>> hardly exhausts the possibilities): A poet capable of writing across
> the
>> spectrum of "styles," from the most arch-conservative (Reis), to the
>> most quiet of quietudes (Caeiro), to the most futurist-avant (de
>> Campos), who radically alters the rules nearly everyone takes for
>> granted--including the most "radical innovators."
>>
>> Kent
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Nov 16 06:59:56 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one
References: <s198a727.043@mail.highland.edu>
	<007201c4cbd1$fa3d6ef0$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006301c4cbd3$ca990360$86aa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I think Bob that here historical conditions you have never felt, or will
ever feel, play a consistent role in the specific case. Your pragmatic
observation is linear. But maybe through empathy and a deeper knowledge of
countries as Portugal was ---and still is regardless of the tourists' offer,
and of Pessoa as a person, and on another level as an author, you might get
to the greatness of his life and work dedicated to his numerous heteronymes.

A good day, anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one


> Kent, I'm afraid I don't follow you.  Just what is this heteronymity that
> Pessoa is practicing.  It seems to me it is writing poems in different
> styles and giving them different pseudo-authors.  As someone else
mentioned,
> it's like writing dialogue for different characters in a play.  Or
Brownings
> dramatic monlogues.  What is innovative about it?  What does it add to a
> given poem that's different from reading a piece of light verse by XJ
> Kennedy, then a serious piece of verse by the same poet, for example?
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:54 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one
>
>
> > Just up here again after a weekend away. A few minutes between classes
> > here. Thanks to Chris, Mike, and Bob for responses.
> >
> > Mike and Bob: Indeed, I am proposing Pessoa's intricate stagings of
> > authorship--his heteronyms--as the primary index of his radical
> > "innovation," not the various "styles" of his various authorships. The
> > point regarding Pessoa's ability to move easily within the context of
> > heteronymity was to point out that "style" could be ultimately regarded
> > as a second order feature of "innovation." That is, it is possible to be
> > more avant the "avant-garde," whatever that concept is worth (probably
> > not much), even while writing in the most traditional forms available.
> > There is Official Poetry Culture and there is Official Poetry Culture...
> >
> >
> > And Chris, I am all for the different kinds of "thinking about the
> > relationship of work to author" that you mention, and I'm a big time
> > Whitman fan myself, not to mention "Shakespeare" fan (!). Language
> > poetry, actually, has made rather energetic gestures in this
> > "questioning" direction, though always stopping (very awkwardly, in my
> > opinion--see recent Watten essays focusing on "authorship," for example)
> > at the point where the theoretical implications might take practice
> > beyond conventional protocols of presentation. Silliman, to his credit,
> > has realized the contradiction between implications of earlier Langpo
> > theory and the group's inability to break from traditional/official
> > conceptions of Authorship, and has thus retreated of late into an open
> > advocacy of authorial identity as "marketing brand"--a more candid
> > partisan of the benefits of Author Function than the Board members of
> > the Academy of American Poets. Thus, his arguments for poetic "advance"
> > are almost completely reduced to a fetishistic focus on textual
> > effects-- which is fine, of course, but a quite limited way of thinking
> > about poetry's total possibilities (aesthetic as well as social) in my
> > opinion.
> >
> > I hope it's clear I'm not arguing for any kind of either/or route of
> > authorship. I'm simpy suggesting there are other, largely unexplored
> > areas of poetic geography--ones we might begin to enter by challenging
> > and reconfiguring standard, ritualized models of attribution.
> >
> > Kent
> >
> > *
> >
> > Kent--
> >
> > I think Pessoa's heteronyms are cool, and definitely worth studying--
> > I think considering different relationships between works and their
> > authors
> > (or, hell, I suppose one could even say "author construct")
> > are also fascinating, especially when joined with "writing across the
> > spectrum of styles." or dealing with "modes,"--I certainly was not
> > criticizing this in writing to James. If anything, I was just thinking
> > out
> > loud about the rhetoric of "radical innovation" itself, a rhetoric
> > that you employ as much as the "radical innovators" you critique.
> > I just don't see how such a rhetoric actually does anything more
> > than "I'm more radical than thou...na na na na na na..."
> >
> > As a related, but different, question, when I think of Pessoa,
> > I tend to find myself comparing what he does to other ways of thinking
> > about the relationship of the work to the author, ways that might
> > seem to you, less radically innovative, for instance--
> > Whitman's use of the "I", Shakespeare's "negative capability"
> > (Is "Shakespeare" "Iago" as much as "Imogen?" as Keats claimed?),
> > or other writers, who maybe not as relentlessly, or SYSTEMATICALLY,
> > adopted different names or characters, like Laura (Riding) Jackson,
> > or Amiri Baraka/Le Roi Jones, both of whose name changes, and working
> > across a large spectrum of styles (in many cases outside of the
> > genre of what is called "poetry," but on the grounds that one HAS TO
> > do that in order to be a poet anymore), could be said to reconfigure
> > "conventional boundaries". Sure, "Shakespeare" is always called
> > "Shakespeare" (well, when he's not called Bacon for instance),
> > but "Reis" and "Caeiro" are also called Pessoa? Is it really more
> > racically innovative? And, if it is, is that really the reason
> > it's great?
> > (actually, I just Bob G., has a similar question as the last---
> > but, again, one key difference with both Bob G, and you,
> > I'm don't argue that on the grounds of "stylistic innovation"
> > so whether or not Pessoa is an innovator as you claim,
> > or not, as Bob claims, to me, is not so important...)
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > But there is innovation of *modes, too-- the
> >> creation of new possibilites of relationship between the author and
> > the
> >> work (or the search for ways, perhaps, in which these concepts blur
> >> their conventional boundaries). This is a more substantial kind of
> >> innovation. Again, Pessoa is the suggestive example for poetry, which
> > is
> >> greatly behind the other arts, actually, in these regards (though he
> >> hardly exhausts the possibilities): A poet capable of writing across
> > the
> >> spectrum of "styles," from the most arch-conservative (Reis), to the
> >> most quiet of quietudes (Caeiro), to the most futurist-avant (de
> >> Campos), who radically alters the rules nearly everyone takes for
> >> granted--including the most "radical innovators."
> >>
> >> Kent
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 16 07:25:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:25:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Form of Women
References: <s1990bb8.028@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <00a101c4cbd7$648f8130$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> If I'd written only one poem in my life, and it was this one, I would
> feel I had done something great in poetry:

Would you care to tell us why, Kent?  To me it's just another shaman poem. 
It's okay, I guess but I find it disorganized (and not meaningfully 
disorganized) and much of its mysticism I find inauthentic, because not 
freshly metaphored, in my view.  And it uses no poetic devices of any 
technical interest except to antiquarians, so far as I can see.

--Bob G.


> *
>
> A Form of Women
>
>
> I have come far enough
> from where I was not before
> to have seen the things
> looking in at me through the open door
>
> and have walked tonight
> by myself
> to see the moonlight
> and see it as trees
>
> and shapes more fearful
> because I feared
> what I did not know
> but have wanted to know.
>
> My face is my own, I thought.
> But you have seen it
> turn into a thousand years.
> I watched you cry.
>
> I could not touch you.
> I wanted very much to
> touch you
> but could not.
>
> If it is dark
> when this is given to you
> have care for its content
> when the moon shines.
>
> My face is my own.
> My hands are my own.
> My mouth is my own
> but I am not.
>
> Moon, moon,
> when you leave me alone
> all the darkness is
> an utter blackness,
>
> a pit of fear,
> a stench,
> hands unreasonable
> never to touch.
>
> But I love you.
> Do you love me?
> What to say
> when you see me.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 16 07:29:35 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:29:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one
References: <s198a727.043@mail.highland.edu><007201c4cbd1$fa3d6ef0$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006301c4cbd3$ca990360$86aa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00aa01c4cbd7$eed30330$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>I think Bob that here historical conditions you have never felt, or will
> ever feel, play a consistent role in the specific case. Your pragmatic
> observation is linear. But maybe through empathy and a deeper knowledge of
> countries as Portugal was ---and still is regardless of the tourists' 
> offer,
> and of Pessoa as a person, and on another level as an author, you might 
> get
> to the greatness of his life and work dedicated to his numerous 
> heteronymes.
>
> A good day, anny

I think, Anny, that you are missing 98% of what I'm asking about.  Pessoa 
may be great, but what is INNOVATIVE about the fact that he wrote dramatic 
monologues and attached varied pseudonyms to them?  And what extra poetic 
value did that give to them?  If that's what Kent is talking about, and I'm 
still only trying to find out exactly what it is that he thinks Pessoa did 
that's of special interest aside from writing poems a lot of people admire 
but I know nothing about.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Nov 16 07:55:50 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:55:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one
References: <s198a727.043@mail.highland.edu><007201c4cbd1$fa3d6ef0$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><006301c4cbd3$ca990360$86aa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<00aa01c4cbd7$eed30330$48b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000b01c4cbdb$99ae7480$86aa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I guess that by your meter the fact that I got 2% right makes me brilliant,
thus thank you very much, :-)
anny


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one


> >I think Bob that here historical conditions you have never felt, or will
> > ever feel, play a consistent role in the specific case. Your pragmatic
> > observation is linear. But maybe through empathy and a deeper knowledge
of
> > countries as Portugal was ---and still is regardless of the tourists'
> > offer,
> > and of Pessoa as a person, and on another level as an author, you might
> > get
> > to the greatness of his life and work dedicated to his numerous
> > heteronymes.
> >
> > A good day, anny
>
> I think, Anny, that you are missing 98% of what I'm asking about.  Pessoa
> may be great, but what is INNOVATIVE about the fact that he wrote dramatic
> monologues and attached varied pseudonyms to them?  And what extra poetic
> value did that give to them?  If that's what Kent is talking about, and
I'm
> still only trying to find out exactly what it is that he thinks Pessoa did
> that's of special interest aside from writing poems a lot of people admire
> but I know nothing about.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Tue Nov 16 10:34:23 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:34:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: becoming many/becoming one
Message-ID: <s199c9bf.084@mail.highland.edu>

Bob,

There was an interesting "roundtable" on the "post-avant" a few months
ago. My comments on the matter (and Pessoa comes in there) are at:

http://www.bostoncomment.com/debate.html 

Kent


From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Tue Nov 16 11:32:58 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:32:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] If I had written only one poem...
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A477@mail.ripon.edu>

Now *this* is a game I like to play.

My list of touchstones is, of course, a long one.  But if I had written only
one poem, here is a candidate that would certainly satisfy.

An Old Man's Winter Night

All out of doors looked darkly in at him
Through the thin frost, almost in separate stars,
That gathers on the pane in empty rooms.
What kept his eyes from giving back the gaze
Was the lamp tilted near them in his hand.	        
What kept him from remembering what it was
That brought him to that creaking room was age.
He stood with barrels round him-at a loss.
And having scared the cellar under him
In clomping there, he scared it once again	        
In clomping off;-and scared the outer night,
Which has its sounds, familiar, like the roar
Of trees and crack of branches, common things,
But nothing so like beating on a box.
A light he was to no one but himself	       
Where now he sat, concerned with he knew what,
A quiet light, and then not even that.
He consigned to the moon, such as she was,
So late-arising, to the broken moon
As better than the sun in any case	       
For such a charge, his snow upon the roof,
His icicles along the wall to keep;
And slept. The log that shifted with a jolt
Once in the stove, disturbed him and he shifted,
And eased his heavy breathing, but still slept.	       
One aged man-one man-can't fill a house,
A farm, a countryside, or if he can,
It's thus he does it of a winter night.

--Robert Frost

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Kent Johnson
> Reply To: 	NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
> Sent: 	Monday, November 15, 2004 8:03 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] A Form of Women
> 
> If I'd written only one poem in my life, and it was this one, I would
> feel I had done something great in poetry:
> 
> *
> 
> A Form of Women
> 
> 


From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Nov 16 12:11:42 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:11:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] If I had written only one poem...
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A477@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4199EE7E.1105.596409@localhost>

Well, I dunno if this is really the ONE poem I wish I'd written, but 
I sure do admire it.

Xena; or, The Warrior Princess
Kevin Wald

[We join our operetta already in progress. The infamous Pirates of 
Pergamum have just
seized a bevy of beautiful Mytilenean maidens, and are attempting to 
carry them off for
matrimonial purposes. Gabrielle intervenes, with a recitative (well, 
it's better than a pan flute
solo):]

Gabrielle: 

     Hold, scoundrels! Ere ye practice acts of villainy
     Upon the peaceful and agrarian,
     Just bear in mind, these maidens of My-TIL-ene[1]
     Are guarded by a buff barbarian!

Pirates: 

     We'd better all rethink our cunning plan;
     They're guarded by a buff barbarian.

Maidens: 

     Yes, yes, she is a buff barbarian.

[Xena leaps in from the wings, with a tremendous war cry, does a mid-
air somersault, and
lands on her feet on the Pirate King's chest.]

Xena: 

     Yes, yes, I am a buff barbarian!

[The orchestra starts up.]

     I am the very model of a heroine barbarian;
     Through Herculean efforts, I've become humanitarian.
     I ride throughout the hinterland -- at least that's what they 
call it in
     Those sissy towns like Athens (I, myself, am Amphipolitan).
     I travel with a poet who is perky and parthenian[2]
     And scribbles her hexameters in Linear Mycenian[3]
     (And many have attempted, by a host of methods mystical,
     To tell if our relationship's sororal or sapphistical).

Chorus: 

     To tell if their relationship's sororal or sapphistical!
     To tell if their relationship's sororal or sapphistical!
     To tell if their relationship's sororal or sapphisti-phistical!

Xena: 

     My armory is brazen, but my weapons are ironical;
     My sword is rather phallic, but my chakram's rather yonical[4]
     (To find out what that means, you'll have to study Indo-
Aryan[5]).
     I am the very model of a heroine barbarian!

Chorus: 

     To find out what that means, we'll have to study Indo-Aryan --
     She is the very model of a heroine barbarian!

Xena: 

     I wake up every morning, ere the dawn is rhododactylous[6]
     (Who needs to wait for daylight? I just work by _sensus 
tactilis_[7].)
     And ride into the sunrise to protect some local villagers
     From mythologic monsters or from all-too-human pillagers.
     I hurtle towards each villain with a recklessness ebullient
     And cow him with my swordwork and my alalaes ululient[8];
     He's frightened for his head, because he knows I'm gonna whack 
it -- he's
     Aware that his opponent is the Basileia Makhetes!

[The music crashes to a halt, as the Chorus stares at Xena in utter 
confusion. She sighs.]

     It's *Greek*. It means "Warrior Princess"!

[Light dawns on the Chorus, and the music resumes.]

     Sheesh . . .

Chorus: 

     He knows that his opponent is the Basileia Makhetes!
     He knows that his opponent is the Basileia Makhetes!
     He knows that his opponent is the Basileia Makhe-makhetes,

Xena: 

     Because I've got my armor, which is really rather silly, on
     (It's cut so low I feel like I'm the topless tow'rs of Ilion,
     And isn't any use against attackers sagittarian[9]).
     I am the very model of a heroine barbarian!

Chorus: 

     It isn't any use against attackers sagittarian --
     She is the very model of a heroine barbarian!

Xena: 

     In short, when I can tell you how I break the laws of gravity,
     And why my togs expose my intermammary concavity,
     And why my comrade changed her dress from one that fit more 
comfily
     To one that shows her omphalos[10] (as cute as that of 
Omphale[11]),
     And why the tale of Spartacus appears in Homer's versicon[12],

[She holds up a tomato:] 

     And where we found examples of the genus Lycopersicon[13],
     And why this Grecian scenery looks more like the Antipodes,
     You'll say I'm twice the heroine of any in Euripides!

Chorus: 

     We'll say she's twice the heroine of any in Euripides!
     We'll say she's twice the heroine of any in Euripides!
     We'll say she's twice the heroine of any in Euripi-ripides!

Xena: 

     But though the kinked chronology, confusing and chimerical
     (It's often unhistorical, but rarely unhysterical),
     Would give a massive heart attack to any antiquarian,
     I am the very model of a heroine barbarian!

Chorus: 

     'Twould give a massive heart attack to any antiquarian --
     She is the very model of a heroine barbarian!

[As the orchestra plays the final chords, a wild Xenaesque melee 
ensues, and the curtain has
to be brought down.]



Notes:

   1.Actually, "Mytilene" would properly be accented on the third 
syllable; Gabrielle always did
     have trouble with rhymes. (Mytilene, incidentally, is a city on 
the isle of Lesbos -- the
     hometown of the poet Sappho, as a matter of fact. It is not 
clear what, if anything, Gilbert is
     trying to imply here.) 
   2.parthenian: virginal. 
   3.Linear Mycenian: Mycenian is the ancient dialect of Greek which 
was written in Linear B (a
     form of Greek writing that predates the adoption of the 
alphabet). The implication is that
     Gabrielle does her writing in Linear B; if Xena takes place 
around the time of the Trojan war,
     this is chronologically reasonable. 
   4.yonical: "Yonic" is the female counterpart to "phallic". 
   5.Indo-Aryan: The language group consisting of Sanskrit and its 
close relatives. Both "chakram"
     and "yonic" are of Sanskrit derivation. 
   6.rhododactylous: rosy-fingered. (Homer makes frequent reference 
to rhododaktulos eos --
     "rosy-fingered dawn".) 
   7.sensus tactilis: Latin for "the sense of touch". 
   8."Alalaes" are war-cries (the Greeks spelled a Xena-like war cry 
as _alala_ or _alale_) and
     "ululient" is a coined term, apparently meaning "characterized 
by ululation". 
   9.sagittarian: archer-like. 
  10.omphalos: belly-button. 
  11.Omphale: Legendary queen of Lydia. From context, we must assume 
that she had a cute
     belly-button; however, no known classical source seems to 
address this vital issue. 
  12.versicon: a coined term, apparently meaning "collection of 
verse". 
  13.Lycopersicon: the biological genus to which tomatoes are 
assigned. (The tomato is a New
     World plant, and was entirely unknown in the Old World in pre-
Columbian times. Thus,
     having tomatoes in a Xenaish context is an even greater 
anachronism than having Homer tell
     the tale of Spartacus.) 







From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 16 14:01:16 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:01:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] A look at the NBA Finalists in Poetry 
Message-ID: <1ad.2b021a56.2ecba87c@aol.com>

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1116/p17s02-bogn.html
 
November 16, 2004 
 
A look at the National Book Award Finalists / Poetry
 
Literary awards often feel like the Oscar race for Best Picture. Fans hope 
the finalists will be outstanding and the winner an undeniable classic. But 
often the nominees are simply good, occasionally even questionable, and the chosen 
film is a bit disappointing...
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 16 21:29:10 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:29:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
Message-ID: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/15/2004 7:32:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and
> >>>my poetry and criticism
> >>>I welcome such attacks ... <
> >
> >What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame
> >people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling.
> >
> >Marcus
> 
> Oh, I don't flame just people who attack me, Marcus, I flame EVERYone.  And 
> my standard mode is not name-calling, my ONLY mode is name-calling.
> 
> Just to set the record straight.  (No more from me to Marcus, James.)
> 

"I believe that the time given to refutation in philosophy is usually time 
lost. Of the many attacks directed by many thinkers against each other, what now 
remains? Nothing, or assuredly very little. That which counts and endures is 
the modicum of positive truth which each contributes. The true statement is, 
of itself, able to displace the erroneous idea, and becomes, without our having 
taken the trouble of refuting anyone, the best of refutations." --Henri 
Bergson (1859-1941) 

substitute the word 'poetry' for 'philosophy' above.
Finnegan
    

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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Tue Nov 16 23:34:06 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 23:34:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRC...
In-Reply-To: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>
References: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>

anyone out there into IRC? i'm trying to start up a live poetry chat 
thing. anyone involved in something similar currently?

thanks,
kpaul
mallasch.com



From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed Nov 17 01:35:54 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:35:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] kooser article
Message-ID: <53.1ac2d46d.2ecc4b4a@aol.com>

Retired insurance man puts a premium on verse
> Meet the new poet laureate of the United States
>
> By Elizabeth Lund
>
>? Ted Kooser isn't embarrassed to say that the poems he wrote in grade
> school were decidedly ordinary: "I love my dog/ his padded paws/ at
> Christmas he's my/ Santa Claus." He doesn't try to hide the fact that
> as a teenager "my impulse toward poetry had a lot to do with girls."
> Mr. Kooser, a retired insurance executive, even admits to knocking the
> side-view mirror off his car after being named poet laureate of the
> United States in August. He was so excited, he says in a phone
> interview, that he didn't pay attention as he backed out of his
> driveway in Garland, Neb.
>
>? Some poets might not mention those stories, cultivating instead a
> more worldly image. But for Kooser, the first US laureate from the
> Plains States, ordinary moments are the impetus for art. His poems are
> like flashlights illuminating small dramas: a father watching his son
> get married; a tattoo that has faded; a brown recluse spider walking
> inside the bathtub. The setting may be rural America, but the scene is
> universal. That resonance, along with his clear, graceful style, have
> earned him numerous awards, including two NEA fellowships and a
> Pushcart Prize. Yet what really makes Kooser a "thoroughly American
> laureate" - as predecessor Billy Collins has called him - is not just
> his approach but the way his perspective seems to mirror that of
> "average" Americans.
>
> "Most of us would prefer to look at cartoons in a magazine than read a
> poem," says Kooser, noting the common complaint that poetry is hard to
> decipher or full of elusive, hidden meanings. "In the real world, if
> you come across a poem, who says, 'Study it'? If it doesn't do
> anything for you, you just move on."
>
> Kooser wants readers to linger, of course, which is why he works so
> hard to make his poems clear - sometimes going through 40 or 50
> drafts. One of his best critics, he says, is his wife, Kathleen
> Rutledge, editor of the Lincoln Journal Star.
>
> A few years ago at Lincoln Benefit Life, he showed poems to his
> secretary. If she didn't understand them, he'd revise. "I never want
> to be thought of as pandering to a broad audience," he says, "but you
> can tweak a poem just slightly and broaden the audience very much. If
> you have a literary allusion, you limit the audience. Every choice
> requires a cost-benefit analysis."
>
> Kooser has done several "risk analyses" regarding his career choices,
> too, each of which pushed him toward a literary life, albeit in a
> circuitous way.
>
> The first came during his undergraduate years at Iowa State, where he
> majored in architecture until his junior year. That's when the math
> and the physics "killed me," he says. He switched into classes that
> would allow him to teach high school English.
>
> After a year of teaching high school, he began a master of arts
> program at the University of Nebraska, but again there was an
> unexpected detour. The problem: He was so focused on his studies with
> poet Karl Shapiro that he let his other classes slide. The solution:
> he began working in the insurance industry, a career that lasted 35
> years.
>
> Such decisions might sound more practical than poetic. But in his
> life, as in his work, the extraordinary stems from the ordinary. "I
> liked the money and the benefits. I liked the structure, too," he says
> of the corporate world. He began writing at 4:30 or 5 a.m. each day, a
> habit he still continues, often with dogs Alice and Howard by his
> side.
>
> His teaching career resumed at the University of Nebraska in the
> 1970s, when he taught creative writing to nontraditional students. He
> returned as a visiting professor after retiring from his insurance
> company in 1999.
>
> But his experience in the corporate world influences his literary work
> in surprising ways. His book "Sure Signs" (1980) opens with a poem
> called "Selecting a Reader." In it, Kooser describes the kind of
> audience he wants: a woman who weighs the choice of buying one of his
> books or having her dirty raincoat dry cleaned. The coat wins.
>
> Now, years later, the poem reveals much about the new laureate. "I am
> still interested in acknowledging that the people who read books have
> other priorities, and I want to consider those. I want to write books
> of poems interesting enough and useful enough that they can compete
> with the need to get a raincoat cleaned."
>
> Some might snicker at that, but Kooser has never been afraid to say
> what he feels or to express deep emotion. When he battled cancer a few
> years ago, poetry provided an important anchor.
>
> Each day he'd write a short poem - on a postcard - to a close friend.
> Those poems, which celebrated the heartbreaking loveliness of life,
> eventually became "Winter Morning Walks: 100 Postcards to Jim
> Harrison," which won the Nebraska Book Award in 2001.
>
> "The kind of poem I like very much looks at the world and shows
> readers its designs and beauty and significance in a new way," he
> says. "It's like a type of kaleidoscope, only I don't have colored
> glass chips, I just have [words as] mirrors, mirror patterns to make
> ordinary things look attractive."
>
> Those "mirrors" wouldn't work nearly as well without Kooser's keen
> observation. "If you pay attention to the ordinary world, there are
> all sorts of wonderful things in it," he says. "But most of us go
> through the day without noticing."
>
> Some reviewers have complained that Kooser writes sentimental poems,
> but he shrugs off such comments. "Sentimentality is a completely
> subjective word," he notes.
>
> "If I don't take the risk, I'll wind up with a bloodless poem. I have
> to be out there on the edge." He likens the process to the movie
> "Modern Times," where Charlie Chaplin roller skates on a department
> store balcony to impress a woman. "You have to run the risk of falling
> down into ladies ready to wear."
>
> Kooser has given several readings since his installation last month,
> and the response has been encouraging, he says. "I have had many
> letters from people who said that they don't usually read poetry but
> have been trying mine and finding that they like it. My work seems to
> present an example of a kind of writing that a wider audience might
> use as a point of entry into poetry."
>
> Still, he is realistic about how much he can accomplish in a one-year
> term as poet laureate. "If I could convince a few people who don't
> read poetry that it's worth reading, that would be enough, really."


thom tammaro
moorhed, mn
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 17 05:55:40 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:55:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c4cc93$fab60c30$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



    Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me and
    >>>my poetry and criticism
    >>>I welcome such attacks ... <
    >
    >What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame
    >people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling.
    >
    >Marcus

    Oh, I don't flame just people who attack me, Marcus, I flame EVERYone.  And 
    my standard mode is not name-calling, my ONLY mode is name-calling.

    Just to set the record straight.  (No more from me to Marcus, James.)



  "I believe that the time given to refutation in philosophy is usually time lost. Of the many attacks directed by many thinkers against each other, what now remains? Nothing, or assuredly very little. That which counts and endures is the modicum of positive truth which each contributes. The true statement is, of itself, able to displace the erroneous idea, and becomes, without our having taken the trouble of refuting anyone, the best of refutations." --Henri Bergson (1859-1941) 

  substitute the word 'poetry' for 'philosophy' above.
  Finnegan

  I'm not surprised that a champion of dogma like Bergson would say something like this.

  --Bob G.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Nov 17 09:36:57 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:36:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
In-Reply-To: <005f01c4cc93$fab60c30$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <419B1BB9.26760.47698F@localhost>

>     Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me
>     and >>>my poetry and criticism >>>I welcome such attacks ... < >

>     >What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame
>     >people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling. >
>     >Marcus
> 
>     Oh, I don't flame just people who attack me, Marcus, I flame
>     EVERYone. And my standard mode is not name-calling, my ONLY mode
>     is name-calling.

>     "I believe that the time given to refutation in philosophy is
>     usually time lost. Of the many attacks directed by many thinkers
>     against each other, what now remains? Nothing, or assuredly very
>     little. That which counts and endures is the modicum of positive
>     truth which each contributes. The true statement is, of itself,
>     able to displace the erroneous idea, and becomes, without our
>     having taken the trouble of refuting anyone, the best of
>     refutations." --Henri Bergson (1859- 1941) 
> 
>     substitute the word 'poetry' for 'philosophy' above.
>     Finnegan 

I agree that substituting the word "poetry" for "philosophy" above 
makes a strong statement I'd agree with -- and at the same time I 
think the statement as it stands, speaking of philosophy, is simply 
wrong on the face of it. 

But my comments about Mr Grumman are not comments about his poetry, 
they are refutations -- detailed, and successful refutations -- of 
his notion about a "taxonomy of poetry". In other words, my comments 
are about Mr Grumman's philosophy, such as it is, and not about his 
poetry. I don't try to refute his poetry -- I think it does that on 
its own, with its Hallmark-card sentimentality and its goofy 
confusions about grammar -- but I do try to refute his pseudo-
philosophical notions about poetry theory. It may be a waste of time, 
but it's my time to waste, and Mr Finnegan is as welcome as Mr 
Grumman to delete what I say instead of trying to engage with it.

Marcus





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 17 09:50:30 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:50:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <419B1BB9.26760.47698F@localhost>
Message-ID: <00ee01c4ccb4$c992fed0$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

By the way, Dan's article on me suggests that I'm part of a New-Poetry gang 
of worthless literateurs.  He named Barry Spacks as one of them!  Also James 
and David.  One or two others.  Not Marcus.  He probably admires Marcus.  I 
thought the grouping pretty comic.

--Bob



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy


>>     Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me
>>     and >>>my poetry and criticism >>>I welcome such attacks ... < >
>
>>     >What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame
>>     >people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling. >
>>     >Marcus
>>
>>     Oh, I don't flame just people who attack me, Marcus, I flame
>>     EVERYone. And my standard mode is not name-calling, my ONLY mode
>>     is name-calling.
>
>>     "I believe that the time given to refutation in philosophy is
>>     usually time lost. Of the many attacks directed by many thinkers
>>     against each other, what now remains? Nothing, or assuredly very
>>     little. That which counts and endures is the modicum of positive
>>     truth which each contributes. The true statement is, of itself,
>>     able to displace the erroneous idea, and becomes, without our
>>     having taken the trouble of refuting anyone, the best of
>>     refutations." --Henri Bergson (1859- 1941)
>>
>>     substitute the word 'poetry' for 'philosophy' above.
>>     Finnegan
>
> I agree that substituting the word "poetry" for "philosophy" above
> makes a strong statement I'd agree with -- and at the same time I
> think the statement as it stands, speaking of philosophy, is simply
> wrong on the face of it.
>
> But my comments about Mr Grumman are not comments about his poetry,
> they are refutations -- detailed, and successful refutations -- of
> his notion about a "taxonomy of poetry". In other words, my comments
> are about Mr Grumman's philosophy, such as it is, and not about his
> poetry. I don't try to refute his poetry -- I think it does that on
> its own, with its Hallmark-card sentimentality and its goofy
> confusions about grammar -- but I do try to refute his pseudo-
> philosophical notions about poetry theory. It may be a waste of time,
> but it's my time to waste, and Mr Finnegan is as welcome as Mr
> Grumman to delete what I say instead of trying to engage with it.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed Nov 17 09:53:06 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:53:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists
Message-ID: <1eb.2e08f05d.2eccbfd2@aol.com>

Dear New-Poetry Comrades:

I'm compiling a list of online resources for/about poetry for my 
undergrad/grad writing students. I'm looking for sites that provide good information about 
poetry in general (i.e.: poets.org,), poetry portals sites (i.e.: 
webdelsol.com, zuzu.com, poetrymagic.co.uk), and other related poetry sites.

What would you recommend? Suggest? Thanks in advance.

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN


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Subject: poetry e-lists
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 17 09:58:48 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:58:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My First Reply to Schneider's Essay
References: <419B1BB9.26760.47698F@localhost>
Message-ID: <00f101c4ccb5$f2190790$90b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In case anyone is interested, I start my reply to Schneider at 
http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00290.html

I intend it to be a model of how to argue without ad hominems and 
irrelevancies--the opposite of verosopathy, in other words.  Feedback 
welcome.

--Bob



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy


>>     Hey, I just visited Dan's website and found a long attack on me
>>     and >>>my poetry and criticism >>>I welcome such attacks ... < >
>
>>     >What a curious definition of "welcome" you must have: you flame
>>     >people who attack you; your standard mode is name-calling. >
>>     >Marcus
>>
>>     Oh, I don't flame just people who attack me, Marcus, I flame
>>     EVERYone. And my standard mode is not name-calling, my ONLY mode
>>     is name-calling.
>
>>     "I believe that the time given to refutation in philosophy is
>>     usually time lost. Of the many attacks directed by many thinkers
>>     against each other, what now remains? Nothing, or assuredly very
>>     little. That which counts and endures is the modicum of positive
>>     truth which each contributes. The true statement is, of itself,
>>     able to displace the erroneous idea, and becomes, without our
>>     having taken the trouble of refuting anyone, the best of
>>     refutations." --Henri Bergson (1859- 1941)
>>
>>     substitute the word 'poetry' for 'philosophy' above.
>>     Finnegan
>
> I agree that substituting the word "poetry" for "philosophy" above
> makes a strong statement I'd agree with -- and at the same time I
> think the statement as it stands, speaking of philosophy, is simply
> wrong on the face of it.
>
> But my comments about Mr Grumman are not comments about his poetry,
> they are refutations -- detailed, and successful refutations -- of
> his notion about a "taxonomy of poetry". In other words, my comments
> are about Mr Grumman's philosophy, such as it is, and not about his
> poetry. I don't try to refute his poetry -- I think it does that on
> its own, with its Hallmark-card sentimentality and its goofy
> confusions about grammar -- but I do try to refute his pseudo-
> philosophical notions about poetry theory. It may be a waste of time,
> but it's my time to waste, and Mr Finnegan is as welcome as Mr
> Grumman to delete what I say instead of trying to engage with it.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From bobheff at esatclear.ie  Wed Nov 17 12:57:25 2004
From: bobheff at esatclear.ie (Robert Heffernan)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:57:25 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRC...
In-Reply-To: <20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>
	<20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <1100714245.1158.2.camel@Arwen>

I would be interested.

Something like this might rescue IRC in general from the exercise in
triviality it has become in the past few years.

bob

On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 04:34, kpaul mallasch wrote:
> anyone out there into IRC? i'm trying to start up a live poetry chat 
> thing. anyone involved in something similar currently?
> 
> thanks,
> kpaul
> mallasch.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Nov 17 15:18:53 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:18:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur's planet on the table
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A484@mail.ripon.edu>

A really fine assessment of Richard Wilbur's career in the current *New
Yorker* by Adam Kirsch:

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?041122crbo_books

Has anyone seen Wilbur's new collected edition yet?  How many new poems
since the last collected?
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Nov 17 15:35:37 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:35:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur's planet on the table
Message-ID: <1a8.2b28fa19.2ecd1019@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/17/2004 2:20:12 PM Central Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> Has anyone seen Wilbur's new collected edition yet?  How many new poems
> since the last collected?
Mayflies is, I believe, the only new single book, but I've also seen some 
uncollected ones in The New Yorker.
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Nov 17 15:56:29 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:56:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRC...
References: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com><20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>
	<1100714245.1158.2.camel@Arwen>
Message-ID: <000d01c4cce7$eb370620$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

I use Yahoo Messenger and AIM, haven't tried IRC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Heffernan" <bobheff at esatclear.ie>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] IRC...


>I would be interested.
>
> Something like this might rescue IRC in general from the exercise in
> triviality it has become in the past few years.
>
> bob
>
> On Wed, 2004-11-17 at 04:34, kpaul mallasch wrote:
>> anyone out there into IRC? i'm trying to start up a live poetry chat
>> thing. anyone involved in something similar currently?
>>
>> thanks,
>> kpaul
>> mallasch.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From tad at opus40.org  Wed Nov 17 15:58:22 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:58:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists
References: <1eb.2e08f05d.2eccbfd2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c4cce8$2f400420$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

David Graham's site is first-rate.  www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thom424 at aol.com 
  To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:53 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists


  Dear New-Poetry Comrades:

  I'm compiling a list of online resources for/about poetry for my undergrad/grad writing students. I'm looking for sites that provide good information about poetry in general (i.e.: poets.org,), poetry portals sites (i.e.: webdelsol.com, zuzu.com, poetrymagic.co.uk), and other related poetry sites.

  What would you recommend? Suggest? Thanks in advance.

  Thom Tammaro
  Moorhead, MN





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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Nov 17 16:04:43 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 16:04:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur's planet on the table
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A484@mail.ripon.edu>
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A484@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <16393160.1100725483695.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, November 17, 2004, at 03:23PM, Graham, David <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:

>A really fine assessment of Richard Wilbur's career in the current *New
>Yorker* by Adam Kirsch:
>
>http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?041122crbo_books
>
>Has anyone seen Wilbur's new collected edition yet?  How many new poems
>since the last collected?

Thanks, David, for pointing this out.  It's a moving tribute, though I wonder if this is fair: "while Wilbur goes on to invoke ?Auschwitz? final kill,? the poem does not take account of that evil in such a way that the memory of evil would affect the imagination of good."

Should it? Shouldn't our imagination of the good be what it is in spite of what particular forms evil has taken?

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 17 16:16:52 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:16:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists
References: <1eb.2e08f05d.2eccbfd2@aol.com>
	<002f01c4cce8$2f400420$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <419BBFC4.17E48B8B@earthlink.net>

Mine is second-rate:  http://www.poetserv.com/links.html

- Jim

> The Old Mole wrote:
> 
> David Graham's site is first-rate.
> www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> 
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: Thom424 at aol.com
>      To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:53 AM
>      Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists
> 
>      Dear New-Poetry Comrades:
> 
>      I'm compiling a list of online resources for/about poetry
>      for my undergrad/grad writing students. I'm looking for
>      sites that provide good information about poetry in general
>      (i.e.: poets.org,), poetry portals sites (i.e.:
>      webdelsol.com, zuzu.com, poetrymagic.co.uk), and other
>      related poetry sites.
> 
>      What would you recommend? Suggest? Thanks in advance.
> 
>      Thom Tammaro
>      Moorhead, MN
> 
>      ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>      _______________________________________________
>      New-Poetry mailing list
>      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Nov 17 16:54:58 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:54:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists
References: <1eb.2e08f05d.2eccbfd2@aol.com>
	<002f01c4cce8$2f400420$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <007b01c4ccf0$14e97cc0$14df3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I have a list (far from being complete, I sometimes add some of my mile-long favorites at weekends) on my blog, if you wish to give it a look, click under my signature. 

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists


  David Graham's site is first-rate.  www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html 

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Thom424 at aol.com 
    To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:53 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists


    Dear New-Poetry Comrades:

    I'm compiling a list of online resources for/about poetry for my undergrad/grad writing students. I'm looking for sites that provide good information about poetry in general (i.e.: poets.org,), poetry portals sites (i.e.: webdelsol.com, zuzu.com, poetrymagic.co.uk), and other related poetry sites.

    What would you recommend? Suggest? Thanks in advance.

    Thom Tammaro
    Moorhead, MN





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    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Nov 17 17:41:46 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:41:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists
References: <1eb.2e08f05d.2eccbfd2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009001c4ccf6$a331af60$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Jim's and Anny's are also first-rate. Mine is limited in scope, but has some nice pictures.

http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/




----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thom424 at aol.com 
  To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:53 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists


  Dear New-Poetry Comrades:

  I'm compiling a list of online resources for/about poetry for my undergrad/grad writing students. I'm looking for sites that provide good information about poetry in general (i.e.: poets.org,), poetry portals sites (i.e.: webdelsol.com, zuzu.com, poetrymagic.co.uk), and other related poetry sites.

  What would you recommend? Suggest? Thanks in advance.

  Thom Tammaro
  Moorhead, MN





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Nov 17 18:06:00 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 00:06:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists
References: <1eb.2e08f05d.2eccbfd2@aol.com>
	<009001c4ccf6$a331af60$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00d001c4ccfa$01645760$14df3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thanks, as I was saying Tad Richards MolePages is among my _links and links_

From: The Old Mole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 11:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists


  Jim's and Anny's are also first-rate. Mine is limited in scope, but has some nice pictures.

  http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/




  ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Thom424 at aol.com 
    To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:53 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry e-lists


    Dear New-Poetry Comrades:

    I'm compiling a list of online resources for/about poetry for my undergrad/grad writing students. I'm looking for sites that provide good information about poetry in general (i.e.: poets.org,), poetry portals sites (i.e.: webdelsol.com, zuzu.com, poetrymagic.co.uk), and other related poetry sites.

    What would you recommend? Suggest? Thanks in advance.

    Thom Tammaro
    Moorhead, MN





----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Nov 17 19:37:24 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:37:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
Message-ID: <000801c4cd06$c8067220$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Christian Science Monitor on Ted Kooser.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1116/p15s02-bogn.html
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From tad at opus40.org  Wed Nov 17 19:40:17 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:40:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
References: <000801c4cd06$c8067220$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <001001c4cd07$2f364f10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

>From the Kooser article. Does anyone else find this as funny as I do?


 His teaching career resumed at the University of Nebraska in the 1970s, when he taught creative writing to nontraditional students 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:37 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser


  Christian Science Monitor on Ted Kooser.

  http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1116/p15s02-bogn.html


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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Nov 17 19:51:21 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:51:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
In-Reply-To: <001001c4cd07$2f364f10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <000801c4cd06$c8067220$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<001001c4cd07$2f364f10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <20041117195035.P30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>

sorry. no.

;)

the non-traditional student bit? teaching/taught combo?

to be honest, i'm not even sure who kooser is at the moment. maybe that's 
why?

-kpaul
mallasch.com

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, The Old Mole wrote:

>> From the Kooser article. Does anyone else find this as funny as I do?
>
>
> His teaching career resumed at the University of Nebraska in the 1970s, when he taught creative writing to nontraditional students
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: The Old Mole
>  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:37 PM
>  Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
>
>
>  Christian Science Monitor on Ted Kooser.
>
>  http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1116/p15s02-bogn.html
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  New-Poetry mailing list
>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed Nov 17 19:59:22 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:59:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
Message-ID: <dc.19c0a837.2ecd4dea@aol.com>

go here to find out a little more about kooser:   

          http://nebraskapress.unl.edu/featureTopics/tedKooser/index1.jsp



thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Nov 17 20:00:46 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:00:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRC...
In-Reply-To: <20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>
	<20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <47FB6B98-38FD-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 16, 2004, at 11:34 PM, kpaul mallasch wrote:

> anyone out there into IRC? i'm trying to start up a live poetry chat 
> thing. anyone involved in something similar currently?
>
>

I'd be interested. My experience on IRC (from long ago, so take it with 
a shaker of salt) is that unless you schedule events with a core group 
of at least half-a-dozen, either no one is on at a poetry chat or it's 
dominated by teen angst and/or poetasters.



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Nov 17 20:05:52 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:05:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRC...
In-Reply-To: <47FB6B98-38FD-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>
	<20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>
	<47FB6B98-38FD-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20041117200417.Q30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>

thanks. and yes, we try to help some of the 'teen angsters' at MUG, but 
too many of them at one time is a hassle. ;)

here's the details on the MUG IRC channel:

server:  irc.slashnet.org (6667)
channel: #muground

i like your idea of having it scheduled. otherwise, it's hodge podge and 
can get out of hand. maybe friday evening virt chat for those who are 
poets and take their work home with them. ;)

thanks,
kpaul
mallasch.com

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Michael Snider wrote:

>
> On Nov 16, 2004, at 11:34 PM, kpaul mallasch wrote:
>
>> anyone out there into IRC? i'm trying to start up a live poetry chat thing. 
>> anyone involved in something similar currently?
>> 
>> 
>
> I'd be interested. My experience on IRC (from long ago, so take it with a 
> shaker of salt) is that unless you schedule events with a core group of at 
> least half-a-dozen, either no one is on at a poetry chat or it's dominated by 
> teen angst and/or poetasters.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Nov 17 20:11:24 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:11:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
In-Reply-To: <dc.19c0a837.2ecd4dea@aol.com>
References: <dc.19c0a837.2ecd4dea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20041117200908.Y30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>

heh. thanks. (little embarassed, i guess ;)

seriously, tho, i've been stuck in the poetic underground for a while now.

still, i guess i shoulda known the current poet laureate...

also, i guess the other statement is a tad bit humorous now. ;)

so is any good, as a poet? i'll try to check out some of his word 
formations.

thanks,
kpaul
mallasch.com

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

> go here to find out a little more about kooser:
>
>          http://nebraskapress.unl.edu/featureTopics/tedKooser/index1.jsp
>
>
>
> thom tammaro
> moorhead, mn
>


From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Nov 17 20:24:04 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:24:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
In-Reply-To: <20041117200908.Y30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <dc.19c0a837.2ecd4dea@aol.com>
	<20041117200908.Y30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <20041117202206.V30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>

ok, yeah, he's good, imho. i could feel it, i guess...

-kpaul
mallasch.com

After Years

   	Today, from a distance, I saw you
walking away, and without a sound
the glittering face of a glacier
slid into the sea. An ancient oak
fell in the Cumberlands, holding only
a handful of leaves, and an old woman
scattering corn to her chickens looked up
for an instant. At the other side
of the galaxy, a star thirty-five times
the size of our own sun exploded
and vanished, leaving a small green spot
on the astronomer's retina
as he stood on the great open dome
of my heart with no one to tell.

Ted Kooser

--------------

selecting a reader

First, I would have her be beautiful,
and walking carefully up on my poetry
at the loneliest moment of an afternoon,
her hair still damp at the neck
from washing it. She should be wearing
a raincoat, an old one, dirty
from not having money enough for the cleaners.
She will take out her glasses, and there
in the bookstore, she will thumb
over my poems, then put the book back
up on its shelf. She will say to herself,
"For that kind of money, I can get
my raincoat cleaned." And she will.

-------------

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, kpaul mallasch wrote:

> heh. thanks. (little embarassed, i guess ;)
>
> seriously, tho, i've been stuck in the poetic underground for a while now.
>
> still, i guess i shoulda known the current poet laureate...
>
> also, i guess the other statement is a tad bit humorous now. ;)
>
> so is any good, as a poet? i'll try to check out some of his word formations.
>
> thanks,
> kpaul
> mallasch.com
>
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
>
>> go here to find out a little more about kooser:
>> 
>>          http://nebraskapress.unl.edu/featureTopics/tedKooser/index1.jsp
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> thom tammaro
>> moorhead, mn
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Nov 17 22:07:33 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:07:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
Message-ID: <54.379f0b51.2ecd6bf5@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/17/2004 6:54:41 PM Central Standard Time, 
kpaul at mallasch.com writes: 
> 
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, The Old Mole wrote:
> 
> >>From the Kooser article. Does anyone else find this as funny as I do?
> >
> >
> >His teaching career resumed at the University of Nebraska in the 1970s, 
> when he taught creative writing to nontraditional students
> >

I don't.  It's no stranger than teaching, say, in prisons or to senior 
citizens.
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From grahamd at vbe.com  Wed Nov 17 22:09:42 2004
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:09:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur poem
Message-ID: <BDC16E95.37F1%grahamd@vbe.com>

Here's Wilbur's poem "Cottage Street," partially quoted in the *New Yorker*
article.  It has long been one of my favorites of Wilbur's, especially that
last stanza.





Cottage Street, 1953

Framed in her phoenix fire-screen, Edna Ward
Bends to the tray of Canton, pouring tea
For frightened Mrs. Plath; then, turning toward
The pale, slumped daughter, and my wife, and me,

Asks if we would prefer it weak or strong.
Will we have milk or lemon, she enquires?
The visit seems already strained and long.
Each in his turn, we tell her our desires.

It is my office to exemplify
The published poet in his happiness,
Thus cheering Sylvia, who has wished to die;
But half-ashamed, and impotent to bless,

I am a stupid life-guard who has found,
Swept to his shallows by the tide, a girl
Who, far from shore, has been immensely drowned,
And stares through water now with eyes of pearl.

How large is her refusal; and how slight
The genteel chat whereby we recommend
Life, of a summer afternoon, despite
The brewing dusk which hints that it may end.

And Edna Ward shall die in fifteen years,
After her eight-and-eighty summers of
Such grace and courage as permit no tears,
The thin hand reaching out, the last word *love*,

Outliving Sylvia who, condemned to live,
Shall study for a decade, as she must,
To state at last her brilliant negative
In poems free and helpless and unjust.

--Richard Wilbur


[The following note has been provided by Richard Wilbur:] "Edna Ward was
Mrs. Herbert D. Ward, my wife's mother. The poet Sylvia Plath (1932-1963)
was the daughter of one of Mrs. Ward's Wellesley friends. The recollection
is probably composite, but it is true in essentials."



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Nov 17 22:15:30 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:15:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur poem
Message-ID: <1d8.3078ad2d.2ecd6dd2@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/17/2004 9:09:35 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at vbe.com writes: 
> 
> Here's Wilbur's poem "Cottage Street," partially quoted in the *New Yorker* 
> article.  It has long been one of my favorites of Wilbur's, especially that 
> last stanza.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cottage Street, 1953
> 
> Framed in her phoenix fire-screen, Edna Ward
> Bends to the tray of Canton, pouring tea
> For frightened Mrs. Plath; then, turning toward
> The pale, slumped daughter, and my wife, and me,
> 
> Asks if we would prefer it weak or strong.
> Will we have milk or lemon, she enquires?
> The visit seems already strained and long.
> Each in his turn, we tell her our desires.
> 
> It is my office to exemplify
> The published poet in his happiness,
> Thus cheering Sylvia, who has wished to die;
> But half-ashamed, and impotent to bless,
> 
> I am a stupid life-guard who has found,
> Swept to his shallows by the tide, a girl
> Who, far from shore, has been immensely drowned,
> And stares through water now with eyes of pearl.
> 
> How large is her refusal; and how slight
> The genteel chat whereby we recommend
> Life, of a summer afternoon, despite
> The brewing dusk which hints that it may end.
> 
> And Edna Ward shall die in fifteen years,
> After her eight-and-eighty summers of 
> Such grace and courage as permit no tears,
> The thin hand reaching out, the last word *love*,
> 
> Outliving Sylvia who, condemned to live,
> Shall study for a decade, as she must,
> To state at last her brilliant negative
> In poems free and helpless and unjust.
> 
> --Richard Wilbur
> 
> 
> [The following note has been provided by Richard Wilbur:] "Edna Ward was 
> Mrs. Herbert D. Ward, my wife's mother. The poet Sylvia Plath (1932-1963) was 
> the daughter of one of Mrs. Ward's Wellesley friends. The recollection is 
> probably composite, but it is true in essentials."

Wilbur took a lot of flack over the years from what he has called "the tribe 
of Sylvia" over that last stanza.  But, after reading her daughter's piece 
posted here, it does seem apt.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 06:20:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:20:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
References: <54.379f0b51.2ecd6bf5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c4cd60$a1ad2510$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


>>From the Kooser article. Does anyone else find this as funny as I do?
>
>
>His teaching career resumed at the University of Nebraska in the 1970s, when he taught creative writing to nontraditional students

What's funny (to me, at any rate) is the term, "nontraditional students."  I visualize people in clown-suits.  Or people being students in some way other than listening to lectures, reading and taking notes.  Can't say I can think offhand of a better term to use, though.  I'd probably say, "older students than the ones just out of high."

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 06:32:13 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:32:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them
References: <1d8.3078ad2d.2ecd6dd2@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c4cd62$40627560$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It has struck me frequently that New-Poetry posters tend to go most (if not quite exclusively) for poems about people whereas I tend to prefer poems like "lighght," the one I would most like to have composed, that do not have people in them.  I wonder if others would be interested in posting any poems without people in them that they particularly like.

My latest taxonomy, by the way, divides poems (roughly) into those about people, those about objects and those that are subjectless--that is, they exist (primarily) as verbal designs rather than as commentaries.  I like all three kinds.

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 06:40:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 06:40:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur poem
References: <BDC16E95.37F1%grahamd@vbe.com>
Message-ID: <00ce01c4cd63$79fac330$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Wilbur poemHere's Wilbur's poem "Cottage Street," partially quoted in the *New Yorker* article.  It has long been one of my favorites of Wilbur's, especially that last stanza.


This poem is technically standard but seems major to me, anyway--which I affirm here just to demonstrate, once again, that a poem needn't be innovative for me to admire it.

--Bob G.



Cottage Street, 1953

Framed in her phoenix fire-screen, Edna Ward
Bends to the tray of Canton, pouring tea
For frightened Mrs. Plath; then, turning toward
The pale, slumped daughter, and my wife, and me,

Asks if we would prefer it weak or strong.
Will we have milk or lemon, she enquires?
The visit seems already strained and long.
Each in his turn, we tell her our desires.

It is my office to exemplify
The published poet in his happiness,
Thus cheering Sylvia, who has wished to die;
But half-ashamed, and impotent to bless,

I am a stupid life-guard who has found,
Swept to his shallows by the tide, a girl
Who, far from shore, has been immensely drowned,
And stares through water now with eyes of pearl.

How large is her refusal; and how slight
The genteel chat whereby we recommend
Life, of a summer afternoon, despite
The brewing dusk which hints that it may end.

And Edna Ward shall die in fifteen years,
After her eight-and-eighty summers of 
Such grace and courage as permit no tears,
The thin hand reaching out, the last word *love*,

Outliving Sylvia who, condemned to live,
Shall study for a decade, as she must,
To state at last her brilliant negative
In poems free and helpless and unjust.

--Richard Wilbur


[The following note has been provided by Richard Wilbur:] "Edna Ward was Mrs. Herbert D. Ward, my wife's mother. The poet Sylvia Plath (1932-1963) was the daughter of one of Mrs. Ward's Wellesley friends. The recollection is probably composite, but it is true in essentials."



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Nov 18 09:37:42 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:37:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
References: <54.379f0b51.2ecd6bf5@cs.com>
	<00a601c4cd60$a1ad2510$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <001001c4cd7c$2ba292d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Obviously, there's something wrong with me, if even Grumman, who believes that all Workshop students everywhere are traditional students, and all Iowa Plainlay poems are traditional poems, doesn't see a twist of irony in this. Also, in a different sense, the concept ot Kooser as the ultimate middle America Traditionalist...oh, well. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser



  >>From the Kooser article. Does anyone else find this as funny as I do?
  >
  >
  >His teaching career resumed at the University of Nebraska in the 1970s, when he taught creative writing to nontraditional students

  What's funny (to me, at any rate) is the term, "nontraditional students."  I visualize people in clown-suits.  Or people being students in some way other than listening to lectures, reading and taking notes.  Can't say I can think offhand of a better term to use, though.  I'd probably say, "older students than the ones just out of high."

  --Bob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Nov 18 09:40:14 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:40:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them
References: <1d8.3078ad2d.2ecd6dd2@cs.com>
	<00bf01c4cd62$40627560$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002a01c4cd7c$87024c10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Do poems with animals in them count?

 
He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring'd with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:32 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them


  It has struck me frequently that New-Poetry posters tend to go most (if not quite exclusively) for poems about people whereas I tend to prefer poems like "lighght," the one I would most like to have composed, that do not have people in them.  I wonder if others would be interested in posting any poems without people in them that they particularly like.

  My latest taxonomy, by the way, divides poems (roughly) into those about people, those about objects and those that are subjectless--that is, they exist (primarily) as verbal designs rather than as commentaries.  I like all three kinds.

  --Bob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Nov 18 09:51:31 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:51:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them
In-Reply-To: <002a01c4cd7c$87024c10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <419C70A3.8496.36665A@localhost>

On 18 Nov 2004 at 9:40, The Old Mole wrote:
> Do poems with animals in them count?
 
> He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
> Close to the sun in lonely lands,
> Ring?d with the azure world, he stands.
> The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
> He watches from his mountain walls,
> And like a thunderbolt he falls. 

Not for Jim Cervantes -- at least not in this instance. 

btw, don't tell him it's Tennyson, or he won't be able to maintain 
his position that he's never read, and never will read, any Tennyson.

Marcus







From dmanister at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 18 12:36:31 2004
From: dmanister at hotmail.com (Diana Manister)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:36:31 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
Message-ID: <BAY101-F183533E18E901D08616766B0C20@phx.gbl>

Every poem has a person in it. Except possible haikus, when the poets forgot 
they were people.




From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Nov 18 13:40:25 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:40:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them
Message-ID: <7194CB00.0BFA4C21.001A46F6@aol.com>

Things That Happen Where There Aren't Any People

     ?William Stafford

It's cold on Lakeside Road
with no one traveling. As its turn
on the hill an old sign sags and
finally goes down. The traveler rain
walks back and forth over its victim
flat on the mud.

You don't have to have any people when
sunlight stands on the rocks or gloom
comes following the great dragged clouds
over a huddle of hills. Plenty of
things happen in deserted places, maybe
dust counting millions of its little worlds
or the slow arrival of dep dark.

And out there in the country a rock has been
waiting to be mentioned for thousands of years.
Everyday its shadow leans, crouches,
then walks away eastward in one measured stride
exactly right for its way of being. To reach
for that rock we have the same reasons
that explorers always have for their journeys:
because it is far, because there aren't any people.



From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Nov 18 13:47:55 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:47:55 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [New-Poetry] 2004 National Book Award Winners
Message-ID: <5FCB50CD.1463726A.001A46F6@aol.com>


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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 14:09:24 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:09:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht reaction (Mike Snider query)
Message-ID: <s19c9f20.059@mail.highland.edu>

Mike,

I'm asking you this (asking anyone else with commitment to traditional
prosodies, too) in good faith, so please don't take it as a put-down of
the recently departed Anthony Hecht.

I enjoyed the obit article by Leithauser in the NYRB, found it moving,
actually. But then I went and read the Hecht poem beneath it, titled
"Declensions," a poem about his failing health. To be absolutely honest,
I laughed and laughed, and harder than I have laughed at any poem in
recent memory. And feeling that I wasn't supposed to be laughing made me
laugh harder, frankly, the more deeply (as the poem proceeds) the pain
and pathos gets ensnarled in the clunkily forced rhymes, a complete
mismatch, so to say, of tenor and vehicle. The last lines of the poem
are nicely poignant, but what precedes it is so mannered and cloy that I
was honestly left wondering if the piece was a kind of joke, an ironic
play of sorts on the fathomless gap between formless death and the human
artifices we construct as shields against its shadow. Or something like
that...

So I'm asking, completely unsure now. Was I reacting as Hecht would
have me react or not? And if the latter, am I hopelessly oblivious,
then, to the proper and successful uses of meter and rhyme?

I love the 16th and 17th centuries, mind you, and can swoon as
helplessly as anyone over the masters. But this particular poem seems to
be almost a parody of prosodic misuse.

Kent


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 18 14:12:19 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:12:19 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them
Message-ID: <29040195.1100805139182.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Well, except for the observer, and perhaps that animated rock.

- Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Thom424 at aol.com
Sent: Nov 18, 2004 11:40 AM
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &am
	p;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them

Things That Happen Where There Aren't Any People

     ?William Stafford

It's cold on Lakeside Road
with no one traveling. As its turn
on the hill an old sign sags and
finally goes down. The traveler rain
walks back and forth over its victim
flat on the mud.

You don't have to have any people when
sunlight stands on the rocks or gloom
comes following the great dragged clouds
over a huddle of hills. Plenty of
things happen in deserted places, maybe
dust counting millions of its little worlds
or the slow arrival of dep dark.

And out there in the country a rock has been
waiting to be mentioned for thousands of years.
Everyday its shadow leans, crouches,
then walks away eastward in one measured stride
exactly right for its way of being. To reach
for that rock we have the same reasons
that explorers always have for their journeys:
because it is far, because there aren't any people.

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov 18 15:17:26 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:17:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht reaction (Mike Snider query)
Message-ID: <1a1.2bf2b3cd.2ece5d56@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 1:12:11 PM Central Standard Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 
> 
> 
> Mike,
> 
> I'm asking you this (asking anyone else with commitment to traditional
> prosodies, too) in good faith, so please don't take it as a put-down of
> the recently departed Anthony Hecht.
> 
> I enjoyed the obit article by Leithauser in the NYRB, found it moving,
> actually. But then I went and read the Hecht poem beneath it, titled
> "Declensions," a poem about his failing health. To be absolutely honest,
> I laughed and laughed, and harder than I have laughed at any poem in
> recent memory. And feeling that I wasn't supposed to be laughing made me
> laugh harder, frankly, the more deeply (as the poem proceeds) the pain
> and pathos gets ensnarled in the clunkily forced rhymes, a complete
> mismatch, so to say, of tenor and vehicle. The last lines of the poem
> are nicely poignant, but what precedes it is so mannered and cloy that I
> was honestly left wondering if the piece was a kind of joke, an ironic
> play of sorts on the fathomless gap between formless death and the human
> artifices we construct as shields against its shadow. Or something like
> that...
> 
> So I'm asking, completely unsure now. Was I reacting as Hecht would
> have me react or not? And if the latter, am I hopelessly oblivious,
> then, to the proper and successful uses of meter and rhyme?
> 
> I love the 16th and 17th centuries, mind you, and can swoon as
> helplessly as anyone over the masters. But this particular poem seems to
> be almost a parody of prosodic misuse.
> 
> Kent
> __________

Would someone be able to post the poem here?  I don't want to spend $20 for 
NYRB online.
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 18 13:52:23 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 10:52:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
In-Reply-To: <BAY101-F183533E18E901D08616766B0C20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20041118185223.32758.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>

I remember reading an interview with Robert Frost who
said something like he hated being categorized as a
"nature poet" because he felt that he was as "people
poet."  I think he cited two of his poems that didn't
have people in them--though I forget which two. 
Perhaps David or Sam remember what I'm talking about
here . . .

I don't know if it's possible to have a poem that's
*not* about people in some way or another.  Even if
you're writing a mathemaku or some other linguistic
variant, doesn't the poem depend on the poet's
individual perception?  Or am I being short sighted?

I don't know if haiku poets "forgot they were people."
 Rather, I think that they were trying to somehow get
past individual perception.  In this way, the word
image stands alone, outside of the poet's
sensibilities.  But--the poet wrote the haiku.  The
very act of writing is an act of filtering, no?  I
rather like some haiku, however.  They're like little
photographs, if done well.  

I remember reading a while back some haiku-like poems
about either blues or jazz; I forget which.  I think
that Michael S. Harper may have been the author. 
Nonetheless, one of the poems was about Delta blues. 
It read something like "they broke bottles just for
the sound" referring to the early use of bottle-neck
slides for guitar.  I thought that was a cool and
appropriate image that worked on a coupe of levels.


Thanks,

Jeff


Diana Manister wrote:

> Every poem has a person in it. Except possible
> haikus, when the poets forgot they were people.


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 18 15:29:27 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:29:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht reaction (Mike Snider query)
In-Reply-To: <s19c9f20.059@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19c9f20.059@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <9919831.1100809767604.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, November 18, 2004, at 02:13PM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>Mike,
>
>I'm asking you this (asking anyone else with commitment to traditional
>prosodies, too) in good faith, so please don't take it as a put-down of
>the recently departed Anthony Hecht.
>
>I enjoyed the obit article by Leithauser in the NYRB, found it moving,
>actually. But then I went and read the Hecht poem beneath it, titled
>"Declensions," a poem about his failing health. To be absolutely honest,
>I laughed and laughed, and harder than I have laughed at any poem in
>recent memory. And feeling that I wasn't supposed to be laughing made me
>laugh harder, frankly, the more deeply (as the poem proceeds) the pain
>and pathos gets ensnarled in the clunkily forced rhymes, a complete
>mismatch, so to say, of tenor and vehicle. The last lines of the poem
>are nicely poignant, but what precedes it is so mannered and cloy that I
>was honestly left wondering if the piece was a kind of joke, an ironic
>play of sorts on the fathomless gap between formless death and the human
>artifices we construct as shields against its shadow. Or something like
>that...
>
>So I'm asking, completely unsure now. Was I reacting as Hecht would
>have me react or not? And if the latter, am I hopelessly oblivious,
>then, to the proper and successful uses of meter and rhyme?
>
>I love the 16th and 17th centuries, mind you, and can swoon as
>helplessly as anyone over the masters. But this particular poem seems to
>be almost a parody of prosodic misuse.
>
>Kent
>_______________________________________________


Kent,

Can you  (or someone) post the poem? I don't have a NYRB sub, and there's not much around here but F-18s and soybeans.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Nov 18 15:34:51 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:34:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu>

Anthony Hecht was a great parodist. But it so happened he was totally 
oblivious to his own parodic project.

"In general any strict adherence to a genre begins to feel like a 
stylization, a stylization taken to the point of parody, despite the 
artistic intent of the author."

fr. Mikhail Bakhtin's "Epic and Novel: Toward a Methodology for the Study 
of the Novel"; quote from page 71 of David Duff's MODERN GENRE THEORY 
(Longman, 2000); trans Caryl Emerson and Michael Holquist



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov 18 15:35:12 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:35:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
Message-ID: <e6.5d4b8e81.2ece6180@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 2:21:04 PM Central Standard Time, 
jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: 
> 
> I remember reading an interview with Robert Frost who
> said something like he hated being categorized as a
> "nature poet" because he felt that he was as "people
> poet."  I think he cited two of his poems that didn't
> have people in them--though I forget which two. 
> Perhaps David or Sam remember what I'm talking about
> here . . .

One of them is "The Need of Being Versed in Country Things."  I'm not sure 
what the other one is.  I don't think he ever identified them.  Maybe "Spring 
Pools."
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Nov 18 15:48:07 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:48:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] People Free Poems
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A487@mail.ripon.edu>

Seems obvious that there are people at least implied in any poems written by
humans.  But I guess one could propose a sort of spectrum of possibility,
depending upon how deep the footprints are.

Here's a Robert Francis poem that's pretty reticent about any human
narrative:  


Silent Poem

backroad leafmold stonewall chipmunk 

underbrush grapevine woodchuck shadblow 

woodsmoke cowbarn honeysuckle woodpile 

sawhorse bucksaw outhouse wellsweep 

backdoor flagstone bulkhead buttermilk 

candlestick ragrug firedog brownbread 

hilltop outcrop cowbell buttercup 

whetstone thunderstorm pitchfork steeplebrush 

gristmill millstone cornmeal waterwheel 

watercress buckwheat firefly jewelweed 

gravestone groundpine windbreak bedrock 

weathercock snowfall starlight cockcrow 

--Robert Francis
*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * 

But even here, as Rita Dove commented when she chose this piece for an old
*Poet's Choice* column, there is a kind of shadow-narrative implied, and
hence human tracks are visible.

For my taste, this kind of a poem is at best an interesting stunt.  Poems
without people are kind of like music without melody, beat, harmony, or
tonality:  sure, you can *do* it, but remind me why you would want to,
please.  

I am reminded also of the central chapter of Virginia Woolf's *To The
Lighthouse*, in which there are no characters to speak of, just an empty
house awaiting the return of its inhabitants.  Beautifully done, and great
fun to attack in the seminar, but I imagine that few would wish that chapter
longer.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 15:53:42 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:53:42 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] People Free Poems
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A487@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <073a01c4cdb0$b8c54250$b83e1c40@Emily>

Wallace Stevens seems an obvious resource for people free poems.




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 18 15:57:11 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:57:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, November 18, 2004, at 03:35PM, Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:

>Anthony Hecht was a great parodist. But it so happened he was totally 
>oblivious to his own parodic project.
>
>"In general any strict adherence to a genre begins to feel like a 
>stylization, a stylization taken to the point of parody, despite the 
>artistic intent of the author."
>
>fr. Mikhail Bakhtin's "Epic and Novel: Toward a Methodology for the Study 
>of the Novel"; quote from page 71 of David Duff's MODERN GENRE THEORY 
>(Longman, 2000); trans Caryl Emerson and Michael Holquist
>

It's a silly claim in the first place -- or are you willing to say Austen, Dickinson, Balzac, Baudelaire, Dickens, Creeley, O'Hara, and a hundred others I could name, are all unwitting self-parodists?

And utter nonsense applied to Anthony Hecht.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov 18 09:00:25 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 08:00:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
In-Reply-To: <e6.5d4b8e81.2ece6180@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BDC20719.77CE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/18/04 2:35 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 11/18/2004 2:21:04 PM Central Standard Time,
> jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes:
>> 
>> I remember reading an interview with Robert Frost who
>> said something like he hated being categorized as a
>> "nature poet" because he felt that he was as "people
>> poet."  I think he cited two of his poems that didn't
>> have people in them--though I forget which two.
>> Perhaps David or Sam remember what I'm talking about
>> here . . .
> 
> 
> One of them is "The Need of Being Versed in Country Things."  I'm not sure
> what the other one is.  I don't think he ever identified them.  Maybe "Spring
> Pools."
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Or try ?The Most of It,? a great poem about the disturbing absence of
humanity in the nonhuman universe.

Paul Lake
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From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 18 16:02:50 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:02:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] IRC...
In-Reply-To: <20041117200417.Q30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <a1.52009a21.2ecc1176@aol.com>
	<20041116233328.F16493@kpaul.spinweb.net>
	<47FB6B98-38FD-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>
	<20041117200417.Q30577@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <10630617.1100811770303.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, November 17, 2004, at 08:06PM, kpaul mallasch <kpaul at mallasch.com> wrote:

>thanks. and yes, we try to help some of the 'teen angsters' at MUG, but 
>too many of them at one time is a hassle. ;)
>
>here's the details on the MUG IRC channel:
>
>server:  irc.slashnet.org (6667)
>channel: #muground
>
>i like your idea of having it scheduled. otherwise, it's hodge podge and 
>can get out of hand. maybe friday evening virt chat for those who are 
>poets and take their work home with them. ;)
>
>thanks,
>kpaul
>mallasch.com
>

I'll check it out --assuming my IRC client still works.  Haven't fired it up through 3 OS upgrades. But something wil connect.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov 18 16:12:00 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:12:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
Message-ID: <12e.51469e40.2ece6a20@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 3:03:19 PM Central Standard Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> 
> On 11/18/04 2:35 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
> 
> >> In a message dated 11/18/2004 2:21:04 PM Central Standard Time, 
>> jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: 
>> >>> 
>>> I remember reading an interview with Robert Frost who
>>> said something like he hated being categorized as a
>>> "nature poet" because he felt that he was as "people
>>> poet."  I think he cited two of his poems that didn't
>>> have people in them--though I forget which two. 
>>> Perhaps David or Sam remember what I'm talking about
>>> here . . .
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> One of them is "The Need of Being Versed in Country Things."  I'm not sure 
>> what the other one is.  I don't think he ever identified them.  Maybe 
>> "Spring Pools."
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
> 
> Or try ?The Most of It,? a great poem about the disturbing absence of 
> humanity in the nonhuman universe.
> 
> Paul Lake 

Uh, the first word of that one is "he."
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 16:19:59 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:19:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht reaction
Message-ID: <s19cbdb9.096@mail.highland.edu>

Here's someting interesting written to me back channel by a well-known
writer:

"The larger question A. Hecht poses is: Is the proper response to
Auschwitz a sestina?"

Anyway, Mike, I'll try to type the poem in tomorrow.

Kent



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 16:23:10 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:23:10 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <s19cbe6f.099@mail.highland.edu>

Anthony Robinson said,

"Wallace Stevens seems an obvious resource for people free poems."

Tony, I know you think you "know it all" lately, especially since you
got nominated for a Pushcart and all that and becasue you're poetry
editor of a hot mag and also becasue you get so many people writing in
to your blog because you are talented and ruggedly handsome, with a
faint appearance to Che Guevara (OK, yes, true, I write in to your blog
bacuse you're handsome, too, I admit it... thanks alot, by the way, you
self-centered prick, for never acknowledging my very smart and clever
comments there, I'm starting to believe you're developing a Silliman
complex, I'll bet you don't respond to this one, either, huh), but
anyway, my point is this: Wallace Stevens isn't even close to being as
good a sans people example as Robinson Jeffers.

So don't start thinking you know all the answers, OK? Anyone who
wouldn't first think of Jeffers in relation to this thread doesn';t
know
what she's talking aobut.

Kent



From lattaj at umich.edu  Thu Nov 18 16:29:17 2004
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:29:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <s19cbe6f.099@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19cbe6f.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0411181625400.28046@timepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Pipe down, Kint.

Poems, my dear friend (cher ami) are made of words,
not people.

As Stephane (Steve) so famously said to Edgar (Edgar).

John


On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Anthony Robinson said,
>
> "Wallace Stevens seems an obvious resource for people free poems."
>
> Tony, I know you think you "know it all" lately, especially since you
> got nominated for a Pushcart and all that and becasue you're poetry
> editor of a hot mag and also becasue you get so many people writing in
> to your blog because you are talented and ruggedly handsome, with a
> faint appearance to Che Guevara (OK, yes, true, I write in to your blog
> bacuse you're handsome, too, I admit it... thanks alot, by the way, you
> self-centered prick, for never acknowledging my very smart and clever
> comments there, I'm starting to believe you're developing a Silliman
> complex, I'll bet you don't respond to this one, either, huh), but
> anyway, my point is this: Wallace Stevens isn't even close to being as
> good a sans people example as Robinson Jeffers.
>
> So don't start thinking you know all the answers, OK? Anyone who
> wouldn't first think of Jeffers in relation to this thread doesn';t
> know
> what she's talking aobut.
>
> Kent
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 18 16:34:00 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:34:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht reaction
In-Reply-To: <s19cbdb9.096@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19cbdb9.096@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <1333742.1100813640545.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, November 18, 2004, at 04:22PM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>Here's someting interesting written to me back channel by a well-known
>writer:
>
>"The larger question A. Hecht poses is: Is the proper response to
>Auschwitz a sestina?"
>
>Anyway, Mike, I'll try to type the poem in tomorrow.
>
>Kent
>
Kent, 

Can there be something we could call "the proper response to Auschwitz"?  Shouldn't any reaction of ours be based on attention to the response itself, whatever form it might take?

For that matter, Hecht wrote an essay on the sestina (it appears in Melodies Unheard), noting that almost all sestinas have a static quality, a can't-get-past-this feeling. Might that not be a very proper quality in a response to Auschwitz?

Looking forward to the poem, and with no preconceptions -- I like Hecht's work very much, but he was capable of real clunkers.

Best,

Mike

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 16:41:01 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:41:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <s19cbe6f.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <074d01c4cdb7$55186d70$b83e1c40@Emily>

Kent,

I know you're just jealous and it's okay.  I am not Teacher of the Year,
nor have I won an NEA grant. And I've never once been fishing with Gabe
Gudding.

That said, I hate fucking Robinson Jeffers. Nothing personal--I just
don't like his work much.  On my PhD oral exam last year, I got a
question about Jeffers and I bullshitted my answer completely by
changing the question to one about Dana Gioia and the building of the
"California Canon."

I don't look like Che Guevara, you prick. You sore-covered prick.  

I love you Kent, even when I call you a prick.  In fact, I give you too
much publicity as it is.  I just want to eat a fish taco with you and
talk about ladies.  

There are no people in "The Snowman."  There are no people in most of
the Harmonium poems.  There are no people in that poem about the Rabbit.
The Man with the Blue Guitar isn't a man, it's a painting.

Um...Ramon Fernandez isn't a person.  He just looks like one.

Gabriel Gudding and Michael Snyder are bots.  I'm sure of this.

Kent Johnson is an anagram for Javier Alvarez (in a different alphabet).

As for poets named Robinson, E.A. Robinson is pretty good, but all he
writes about is people and persons.  On the cover of the Penguin edition
of his selected, he looks like my dad.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 1:23 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems

Anthony Robinson said,

"Wallace Stevens seems an obvious resource for people free poems."

Tony, I know you think you "know it all" lately, especially since you
got nominated for a Pushcart and all that and becasue you're poetry
editor of a hot mag and also becasue you get so many people writing in
to your blog because you are talented and ruggedly handsome, with a
faint appearance to Che Guevara (OK, yes, true, I write in to your blog
bacuse you're handsome, too, I admit it... thanks alot, by the way, you
self-centered prick, for never acknowledging my very smart and clever
comments there, I'm starting to believe you're developing a Silliman
complex, I'll bet you don't respond to this one, either, huh), but
anyway, my point is this: Wallace Stevens isn't even close to being as
good a sans people example as Robinson Jeffers.

So don't start thinking you know all the answers, OK? Anyone who
wouldn't first think of Jeffers in relation to this thread doesn';t
know
what she's talking aobut.

Kent

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 16:52:58 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:52:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <s19cc576.020@mail.highland.edu>

Oh, so now you're turning against me, LattaJ? Our little honeymoon is
over? I save you and your blog once a month by sending you erotic,
suggestive little theaters to post (without attribution, leaving
everyone guessing) and then you knife me in the back by telling me to
"pipe down"? (What does that mean, when you think about it, "pipe down"?
Waht if this is not a pipe, for example? Wait, I take that back, that's
too obviously cutesy) But also, Lattaj, dont think I don't get your sly
reference to Mallarme, nor that I didn't think about it in relation to
this peopleless thread long before you (or especially before the
stuck-up gigolo Tony) did. But the joke's on you, ha: Poems are made of
words, not ideas, yes, but words make people and so poems, being
"thought" by people who think they make them while they are being
thought at higher dimensions of reality, have people "in them" by virtue
of their (people) absolute absence, for therer would be no words if
words didn't have people to think into being, its all very much like
James Lovelock's Gaia Theory, when you think about it, which itself is
made up of words--even Jeffers, the fascist, in his lovely poem about
the Wall of Rock, got thought up before he was carried away by a black
hawk the size of a hang glider and dropped like (what was the kid's
name, the son of Daedalus, who Auden wrote the peom about, after the
painting by Mark Rothko, or was it Robert Morris), much better than
Stevens's The Rock, that poem by Jeffers, by the way. A huge buck with
like a fourteen point rack just ran down the sidewalk outside my window.
Hunting season in Illinois.

Kent


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov 18 17:22:28 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:22:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht reaction
Message-ID: <19d.2c07d115.2ece7aa4@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 3:21:34 PM Central Standard Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 
> 
> Here's someting interesting written to me back channel by a well-known
> writer:
> 
> "The larger question A. Hecht poses is: Is the proper response to
> Auschwitz a sestina?"
> 
> Anyway, Mike, I'll try to type the poem in tomorrow.
> 
> Kent

Is the proper reaction to Genesis a blank-verse epic?  
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Nov 18 17:26:29 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:26:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118152436.029bee88@mail.ilstu.edu>

Not really sure how any literate person would even begin to show that genre 
revolutionaries like Dickinson, Baudelaire, Balzac, Dickens, Creeley and 
O'Hara displayed a "strict adherence to a genre."

So, to answer your denigrating and snide (you are aptly named) query: no 
they are not.



At 02:57 PM 11/18/2004, Mike Snider wrote:
>It's a silly claim in the first place -- or are you willing to say Austen, 
>Dickinson, Balzac, Baudelaire, Dickens, Creeley, O'Hara, and a hundred 
>others I could name, are all unwitting self-parodists?
>
>And utter nonsense applied to Anthony Hecht.
>
>-----



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 18 17:43:02 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:43:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118152436.029bee88@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041118152436.029bee88@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <1386068.1100817782207.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, November 18, 2004, at 05:28PM, Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu> wrote:

>Not really sure how any literate person would even begin to show that genre 
>revolutionaries like Dickinson, Baudelaire, Balzac, Dickens, Creeley and 
>O'Hara displayed a "strict adherence to a genre."
>
>So, to answer your denigrating and snide (you are aptly named) query: no 
>they are not.
>
>



>
>At 02:57 PM 11/18/2004, Mike Snider wrote:
>>It's a silly claim in the first place -- or are you willing to say Austen, 
>>Dickinson, Balzac, Baudelaire, Dickens, Creeley, O'Hara, and a hundred 
>>others I could name, are all unwitting self-parodists?
>>
>>And utter nonsense applied to Anthony Hecht.
>>
>>-----

The denigrating and snide remark was your application to Hecht of the comment from Bakhtin.

One source says of Balzac that he wrote a "vast number of novels." Dickinson wrote many hundreds of short poems in common meter. Anyone but a fanatic would be hard put to place a random poem from Creeley in the decade in which it was written. There is no implication from those facts about the quality of the work they did -- just that they wrote, over and over again, works in the same genre. Only if you believe the silly statement from Bakhtin (which may not be so silly in context) could it be construed as denigrating to their work.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Nov 18 17:43:23 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:43:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
In-Reply-To: <BDC20719.77CE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <e6.5d4b8e81.2ece6180@cs.com>
Message-ID: <419CDF3B.29445.120D9DC@localhost>

Or, possibly, "The Most of It"
M


On 18 Nov 2004 at 8:00, Paul Lake wrote:

> 
> On 11/18/04 2:35 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
> 
>     In a message dated 11/18/2004 2:21:04 PM Central Standard Time,
>     jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: 
> 
>     I remember reading an interview with Robert Frost who
>     said something like he hated being categorized as a
>     "nature poet" because he felt that he was as "people
>     poet." I think he cited two of his poems that didn't
>     have people in them--though I forget which two. 
>     Perhaps David or Sam remember what I'm talking about
>     here . . .
> 
> 
>     One of them is "The Need of Being Versed in Country Things." I'm
>     not sure what the other one is. I don't think he ever identified
>     them. Maybe "Spring Pools."
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> Or try ?The Most of It,? a great poem about the disturbing absence of
> humanity in the nonhuman universe.
> 
> Paul Lake 






From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 18:47:23 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:47:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <s19ce052.073@mail.highland.edu>

Rsgwynyummyyum said:

>Is the proper reaction to Genesis a blank-verse epic? 

Well, judging from how many people take it literally, probably not.

(By the way, is there any way that first and last names might be
attached to some of these cryptic emails addresses? Issues of nominalism
in poetry are one thing, on a listserv they are another.)

Kentyjohnnyumyumpants



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:06:30 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:06:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them
References: <1d8.3078ad2d.2ecd6dd2@cs.com><00bf01c4cd62$40627560$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002a01c4cd7c$87024c10$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <018701c4cdcb$9ff2a130$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Do poems with animals in them count?

Sure, unless the animal is anthropomorphized.
Tennyson's hand-possessing eagle (or hawk?) almost is, but I'd say the poem is object-centered.

--Bob



    
  He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
  Close to the sun in lonely lands,
  Ring'd with the azure world, he stands.

  The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
  He watches from his mountain walls,
  And like a thunderbolt he falls. 

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:32 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them


    It has struck me frequently that New-Poetry posters tend to go most (if not quite exclusively) for poems about people whereas I tend to prefer poems like "lighght," the one I would most like to have composed, that do not have people in them.  I wonder if others would be interested in posting any poems without people in them that they particularly like.

    My latest taxonomy, by the way, divides poems (roughly) into those about people, those about objects and those that are subjectless--that is, they exist (primarily) as verbal designs rather than as commentaries.  I like all three kinds.

    --Bob


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:09:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:09:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
References: <BAY101-F183533E18E901D08616766B0C20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01a301c4cdcb$fc097570$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Every poem has a person in it. Except possible haikus, when the poets 
> forgot they were people.

I was wondering who would be the first to say something like this.  But not 
every poem is about people.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:11:43 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:11:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People In Them
References: <7194CB00.0BFA4C21.001A46F6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ac01c4cdcc$5a127cc0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I like this poem but it's partially about people.  I'm glad my query snared 
it, though.

--Bob

> Things That Happen Where There Aren't Any People
>
>     ?William Stafford
>
> It's cold on Lakeside Road
> with no one traveling. As its turn
> on the hill an old sign sags and
> finally goes down. The traveler rain
> walks back and forth over its victim
> flat on the mud.
>
> You don't have to have any people when
> sunlight stands on the rocks or gloom
> comes following the great dragged clouds
> over a huddle of hills. Plenty of
> things happen in deserted places, maybe
> dust counting millions of its little worlds
> or the slow arrival of dep dark.
>
> And out there in the country a rock has been
> waiting to be mentioned for thousands of years.
> Everyday its shadow leans, crouches,
> then walks away eastward in one measured stride
> exactly right for its way of being. To reach
> for that rock we have the same reasons
> that explorers always have for their journeys:
> because it is far, because there aren't any people.




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 19:11:32 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:11:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] genre and voice, Creeley and Dickinson, etc.
Message-ID: <s19ce5e5.087@mail.highland.edu>

Mike Snider said,

>just that they wrote, over and over again, works in the same genre.

Mike, I don't think this is true of Creeley or Dickinson. Not that the
categories are wholly separable, but one needs to distinguish a bit
between "genre" and what might be called signature "voice." Creeley and
Dickinson certainly have the latter, but this recognizable element is
present in poems that behave quite differently in terms of their formal
effects (this is especially true in Creeley (you can't be serious in
suggesting that his poetry is formally uniform!), but also in Dickinson,
even if you don't count many of her letters as (intended) poetic
documents, which I would myself). There are plenty of poems by ED in
simple common meters, yes, most of which are her lesser poems, things
like "If I can stop one heart from breaking," chosen, interestingly
enough, by the U.S. Postal Service to represent her to the masses; her
greatest poems often take that same meter and turn it inside out so that
its purple and blue guts are hanging out, and scary things begin to
happen, like "Safe in their Alabaster Chambers."

Again, I thnk you are partly confusing voice with genre.

Kent


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:26:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:26:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Without People
References: <20041118185223.32758.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01cb01c4cdce$5d3bbe50$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>I remember reading an interview with Robert Frost who
> said something like he hated being categorized as a
> "nature poet" because he felt that he was as "people
> poet."  I think he cited two of his poems that didn't
> have people in them--though I forget which two.
> Perhaps David or Sam remember what I'm talking about
> here . . .
>
> I don't know if it's possible to have a poem that's
> *not* about people in some way or another.  Even if
> you're writing a mathemaku or some other linguistic
> variant, doesn't the poem depend on the poet's
> individual perception?  Or am I being short sighted?

No, you're being silly.

> I don't know if haiku poets "forgot they were people."
> Rather, I think that they were trying to somehow get
> past individual perception.  In this way, the word
> image stands alone, outside of the poet's
> sensibilities.  But--the poet wrote the haiku.  The
> very act of writing is an act of filtering, no?  I
> rather like some haiku, however.  They're like little
> photographs, if done well.

> I remember reading a while back some haiku-like poems
> about either blues or jazz; I forget which.  I think
> that Michael S. Harper may have been the author.
> Nonetheless, one of the poems was about Delta blues.
> It read something like "they broke bottles just for
> the sound" referring to the early use of bottle-neck
> slides for guitar.  I thought that was a cool and
> appropriate image that worked on a couple of levels.

Obviously, every poem is about a person inasmuch as it tells us what a 
person has thought, felt, and/or perceived.  All poems have objects in them, 
too, and all poems are verbal designs. But poems can most certainly be 
divided into poems whose (main) subject matter is people, and poems (of two 
kinds) whose (main) subject matter is not.

--Bob 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:28:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:28:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People Free Poems
References: <073a01c4cdb0$b8c54250$b83e1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <01e101c4cdce$c349b080$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Wallace Stevens seems an obvious resource for people free poems.

My first thought was yes; my second: "wait a minute."

--Bob



From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 19:30:58 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:30:58 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] People Free Poems
In-Reply-To: <01e101c4cdce$c349b080$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <077a01c4cdcf$1091a000$b83e1c40@Emily>

Bob,
 Don't leave us hanging. What gave you pause?

 And you can insult me like that jealous SOB Kent Johnson, if you'd
like.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 4:29 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People Free Poems

> Wallace Stevens seems an obvious resource for people free poems.

My first thought was yes; my second: "wait a minute."

--Bob

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 18 19:51:42 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:51:42 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] genre and voice, Creeley and Dickinson, etc.
Message-ID: <200411190032.iAJ0VxTg028518@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

Ah, but for those of you who don't want that---
there's always the BILLY COLLINS versions of her poems!

----------
>From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] genre and voice, Creeley and Dickinson, etc.
>Date: Thu, Nov 18, 2004, 4:11 PM
>

> her
> greatest poems often take that same meter and turn it inside out so that
> its purple and blue guts are hanging out, and scary things begin to
> happen,


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:33:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:33:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <01e701c4cdcf$6f7ace20$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The idea that poets come to parody themselves is a cliche that doesn't mean 
much to me, but this discussion made me wonder if any poet has ever 
intentionally parodied himself.  I tried to make a parody of my mathemaku 
once but wasn't successful.  I hope to give it another try sometime.

--Bob 




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Nov 18 19:39:01 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:39:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People Free Poems
In-Reply-To: <01e101c4cdce$c349b080$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <073a01c4cdb0$b8c54250$b83e1c40@Emily>
	<01e101c4cdce$c349b080$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20041118193850.V92433@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Was one of my first thoughts...

-kpaul

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Bob Grumman wrote:

>> Wallace Stevens seems an obvious resource for people free poems.
>
> My first thought was yes; my second: "wait a minute."
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:39:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:39:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <s19cbe6f.099@mail.highland.edu>
	<Pine.SOL.4.58.0411181625400.28046@timepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <01fa01c4cdd0$44f539f0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Pipe down, Kint.
> 
> Poems, my dear friend (cher ami) are made of words,
> not people.
> 
> As Stephane (Steve) so famously said to Edgar (Edgar).
> 
> John

Now we got it--NO poems are about people!

--Bob




From tad at opus40.org  Thu Nov 18 19:52:15 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:52:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu><14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<01e701c4cdcf$6f7ace20$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002301c4cdd2$05219650$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

I have a poem in which a spectre accosts me and reads me lines from my 
poems, which was meant as a kind of self-parody.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht


> The idea that poets come to parody themselves is a cliche that doesn't 
> mean much to me, but this discussion made me wonder if any poet has ever 
> intentionally parodied himself.  I tried to make a parody of my mathemaku 
> once but wasn't successful.  I hope to give it another try sometime.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 19:52:41 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:52:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman canoes
Message-ID: <s19cef7e.093@mail.highland.edu>

Bob Grumman said,

>Now we got it--NO poems are about people!

Bob, you must see my response to Mr. John Latta from earlier this
evening. 

I fear, sir, that you have little ontology and less epistemology.

[Not that the allusion should give you any illusions...]

Robertgwynnyummyboy! Listen up: 

ALL POEMS ARE BOTH ABOUT PEOPLE AND NOT ABOUT PEOPLE. 

It's a wash, man.

Read Democritus.

Kent



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:58:04 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:58:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <s19cbe6f.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <026801c4cdd2$d3ab1f50$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>Anyone who wouldn't first think of Jeffers in relation to >this thread 
>doesn't know what she's talking aobut.

> Kent

This sounds authoritarian, Kent.  How could that be?  It's is also 
ridiculously psychologically unsound.  Why should a person first think of 
Jeffers even if Jeffers is the no. 1 writer of peopleless poems--even for 
that person?  I don't think of him as that, myself, I think of him as an 
animal/bird poet, which is pretty close to a people poet, and--of course--he 
wrote people poems.  I thought of writers of haiku, imagists, visual poets. 
. . .

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 19:58:56 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:58:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <074d01c4cdb7$55186d70$b83e1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <026d01c4cdd2$f2969e80$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

"The Snow Man" is a people poem, Tony.  



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 19:59:25 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:59:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOB
Message-ID: <s19cf124.095@mail.highland.edu>

Tonygwyynnyveresuckslancelot said:

>And you can insult me like that jealous SOB Kent Johnson, if you'd
like.

Ah ho! So now you're beginning to throw the MLA acronyms around, you
knickered youngster? 

All right, that does it. I'm mad now...




From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 20:04:38 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:04:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <026d01c4cdd2$f2969e80$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <077c01c4cdd3$c6eb9d20$b83e1c40@Emily>

One must have a mind of winter, yeah, but really, it's not very peopley.

T.

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 4:59 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems

"The Snow Man" is a people poem, Tony.  

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 20:06:00 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:06:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Bob Worth the Penny Fare
Message-ID: <s19cf2ad.096@mail.highland.edu>

Bobbygwynnyeuclidinacanboy said,

>This sounds authoritarian, Kent.  How could that be?  It's is also 
ridiculously psychologically unsound.  Why should a person first think
of 
Jeffers even if Jeffers is the no. 1 writer of peopleless poems--even
for 
that person?  I don't think of him as that, myself, I think of him as
an 
animal/bird poet, which is pretty close to a people poet, and--of
course--he wrote people poems.  I thought of writers of haiku, imagists,
visual poets.< 

Mr. Grumman, you not only have no ontology and little epistemology, you
are quite bereft of humor, it doth seem. Still, thou art funny, and most
worth the penny fare.



From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 20:10:24 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:10:24 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOB
In-Reply-To: <s19cf124.095@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <077d01c4cdd4$932d8010$b83e1c40@Emily>

Take deep breaths, Kent.

And send me some love.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 4:59 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOB

Tonygwyynnyveresuckslancelot said:

>And you can insult me like that jealous SOB Kent Johnson, if you'd
like.

Ah ho! So now you're beginning to throw the MLA acronyms around, you
knickered youngster? 

All right, that does it. I'm mad now...


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 18 20:20:47 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:20:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <b9.4b27cd19.2ecea46f@aol.com>

Okay...I think we need to refine the category...
1) It goes without saying that I, you, he/she are out,
but the poem must not contain an overt speaker,
an intrusive speaker, or a speaker who makes his/her
presence known beyond the human artifact of
the poem and the fact that language is inextricably 
connected to the human.
2) The poem must not create human proxies, by
anthropomorphizing animals and plants and bric-a-brac,
or by engaging in the pathetic fallacy.
3) The poem must make sense.
Finnegan
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Nov 18 20:25:57 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:25:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <b9.4b27cd19.2ecea46f@aol.com>
References: <b9.4b27cd19.2ecea46f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20041118202531.M44873@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Agree with everything except number three. Why did you add that?

-kpaul

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Okay...I think we need to refine the category...
> 1) It goes without saying that I, you, he/she are out,
> but the poem must not contain an overt speaker,
> an intrusive speaker, or a speaker who makes his/her
> presence known beyond the human artifact of
> the poem and the fact that language is inextricably
> connected to the human.
> 2) The poem must not create human proxies, by
> anthropomorphizing animals and plants and bric-a-brac,
> or by engaging in the pathetic fallacy.
> 3) The poem must make sense.
> Finnegan
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 20:27:52 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:27:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman canoes
References: <s19cef7e.093@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <02a201c4cdd6$fe11eea0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> ALL POEMS ARE BOTH ABOUT PEOPLE AND NOT ABOUT PEOPLE.
>
> It's a wash, man.
>
> Read Democritus.
>
> Kent

I was kidding, Kent.  I know that all poems are about everything and 
therefore cannot be divided on the basis of their contents.

--Bob 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 20:29:40 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:29:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Intentional Self-Parody by Poets
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu><14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01e701c4cdcf$6f7ace20$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002301c4cdd2$05219650$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <02ab01c4cdd7$3dd8d620$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



>I have a poem in which a spectre accosts me and reads me lines from my 
>poems, which was meant as a kind of self-parody.

Gah, sounds grossfully masochistic, Mole!


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
>
>
>> The idea that poets come to parody themselves is a cliche that doesn't 
>> mean much to me, but this discussion made me wonder if any poet has ever 
>> intentionally parodied himself.  I tried to make a parody of my mathemaku 
>> once but wasn't successful.  I hope to give it another try sometime.
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 18 20:30:16 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:30:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] genre and voice, Creeley and Dickinson, etc.
In-Reply-To: <s19ce5e5.087@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19ce5e5.087@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <915272BF-39CA-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 18, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Mike Snider said,
>
>> just that they wrote, over and over again, works in the same genre.
>
> Mike, I don't think this is true of Creeley or Dickinson. Not that the
> categories are wholly separable, but one needs to distinguish a bit
> between "genre" and what might be called signature "voice." Creeley and
> Dickinson certainly have the latter, but this recognizable element is
> present in poems that behave quite differently in terms of their formal
> effects (this is especially true in Creeley (you can't be serious in
> suggesting that his poetry is formally uniform!), but also in 
> Dickinson,
> even if you don't count many of her letters as (intended) poetic
> documents, which I would myself). There are plenty of poems by ED in
> simple common meters, yes, most of which are her lesser poems, things
> like "If I can stop one heart from breaking," chosen, interestingly
> enough, by the U.S. Postal Service to represent her to the masses; her
> greatest poems often take that same meter and turn it inside out so 
> that
> its purple and blue guts are hanging out, and scary things begin to
> happen, like "Safe in their Alabaster Chambers."
>
> Again, I thnk you are partly confusing voice with genre.

Kent,

I'm glad you asked the question about just what genre might  mean in 
poetry, mostly because I wanted to ask but didn't want to continue the 
previous rather nasty back and forth.

Of course I don't think that Creeley's (or Dickinson's) work is 
formally uniform -- but they and Hecht all all three wrote almost 
entirely short lyric poems -- all three write mostly in the same genre 
-- and Hecht's are more formally various than those of either of the 
others. His last book of poems  (The Darkness and the Light) by itself 
contains free verse (the first poem!) irregularly rhymed non-metrical 
verse (the second), IP Sicilian quatrains (the fourth), rhyming 
heterometric stanzas (the seventh), blank verse (the eighth), sapphics 
(the twelfth), a villanelle (the 18th), a sonnet (22nd), rhymed 
trimeter quatrains (the 25th) -- at least 9 distinct formal 
organizations in the first 25 poems, amd more if you count each free 
verse poem as formally different -- metrical and rhyming translations 
from French and  Latin, meditations on age, prayers, dramatic 
monologues, celebrations, different voices, different tones ...

Notice I don't say Hecht's work is  better, just more formally various. 
It seems to me unlikely that either Creeley or Hecht will one day be 
considered on a level with Dickinson -- you won't be surprised to know 
I think Hecht has a (marginally) better chance.

Perhaps "lyric poetry" or "realist novel" (for Balzac) are too various 
to be considered single genres. But if the majority of Creeley's work, 
or Hecht's, is done in more than one genre, what are those genres? Bob 
Grumman, feel free to comment.

Best,

Mike



From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 18 20:39:51 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:39:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <01e701c4cdcf$6f7ace20$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<01e701c4cdcf$6f7ace20$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <E7F4E31B-39CB-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 18, 2004, at 7:33 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> The idea that poets come to parody themselves is a cliche that doesn't 
> mean much to me, but this discussion made me wonder if any poet has 
> ever intentionally parodied himself.  I tried to make a parody of my 
> mathemaku once but wasn't successful.  I hope to give it another try 
> sometime.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

This was intended to be a self-parody:

A Stratagem


When I talk about politics, poems, or art,
My wife rolls her eyes and my kids run away
And my friends begin shouting, "Enough, you old fart!
Get over it, man! We don't care what you say

About something that happened long ages ago
When a man named Somethingus said this about that
And Somebodyelsus said, "Actually, no,
Since your whatsus is broke and your ass is too fat.'"

Then they're back to the tube, where Buffy the Slayer
Is bound by a vampire who strokes her bare thigh,
And I'm forced to conclude that there isn't a prayer
Of serious talk, nor a reason to try.

Perhaps the solution's to have myself dubbed,
Like a film by Truffaut in Hollywood-ese.
I could say what I want and they wouldn't feel snubbed
And we could spend hours just shooting the breeze!



--------------
I should mention (or maybe not) that for 7 years, Buffy the Vampire 
Slayer was literally trhe only television show I watched.



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Thu Nov 18 20:48:50 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:48:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Love
Message-ID: <s19cfcb9.003@mail.highland.edu>

Oh, Tony,

I do send you love. You know this. 

But go, now. Go marry. Follow your fate and take leave of me. Make thee
another self for love of me, that beauty still may live in thine or
thee. 

Go have a fish taco (with hot sauce) and think of me: Before you is
your longish life. Behind me is mine. I'm sorry it will be a life for
you of basest humiliation, endless obsequiousness, and dark terror. I
wish it could be different. But you have chosen Poetry.

And it's too late to go back, pal.

I love you, and I love all of the poor members of New Poetry. What
idiots we are. What worthless pieces of contaminated dirt we poets are.
What plumpy bags of flesh and slime awaiting the worm.

Where is our Mother Teresa? O, kiss me, Mother. Place your old chapped
lips on my old chapped lips.







From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 18 20:50:14 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:50:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 8:26:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kpaul at mallasch.com writes:

> Agree with everything except number three. Why did you add that?
> 
> -kpaul
> 
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> >Okay...I think we need to refine the category...
> >1) It goes without saying that I, you, he/she are out,
> >but the poem must not contain an overt speaker,
> >an intrusive speaker, or a speaker who makes his/her
> >presence known beyond the human artifact of
> >the poem and the fact that language is inextricably
> >connected to the human.
> >2) The poem must not create human proxies, by
> >anthropomorphizing animals and plants and bric-a-brac,
> >or by engaging in the pathetic fallacy.
> >3) The poem must make sense.
kpaul,
Too easy to make a non-sense poem
without the hint of people in it.. 
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 20:51:36 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:51:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <077c01c4cdd3$c6eb9d20$b83e1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <02cd01c4cdda$4eb7f5e0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> One must have a mind of winter, yeah, but really, it's not very peopley.
> 
> T.

What's the listener, Tony, a pogo stick?  

--Bob



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Nov 18 20:55:35 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:55:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>
References: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20041118205431.L44873@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Must is make sense to a person or an artificial intelligence? ;)

-kpaul the top-poster

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/18/2004 8:26:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> kpaul at mallasch.com writes:
>
>> Agree with everything except number three. Why did you add that?
>>
>> -kpaul
>>
>> On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> kpaul,
> Too easy to make a non-sense poem
> without the hint of people in it..
> Finnegan
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 20:57:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:57:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu><14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01e701c4cdcf$6f7ace20$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<E7F4E31B-39CB-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <02dd01c4cddb$2afc5b90$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I enjoyed and laughed with your poem, Michael, but it seemed to me more a 
joke on yourself than a parody of your poetry.

--Bob G.

>
> This was intended to be a self-parody:
>
> A Stratagem
>
>
> When I talk about politics, poems, or art,
> My wife rolls her eyes and my kids run away
> And my friends begin shouting, "Enough, you old fart!
> Get over it, man! We don't care what you say
>
> About something that happened long ages ago
> When a man named Somethingus said this about that
> And Somebodyelsus said, "Actually, no,
> Since your whatsus is broke and your ass is too fat.'"
>
> Then they're back to the tube, where Buffy the Slayer
> Is bound by a vampire who strokes her bare thigh,
> And I'm forced to conclude that there isn't a prayer
> Of serious talk, nor a reason to try.
>
> Perhaps the solution's to have myself dubbed,
> Like a film by Truffaut in Hollywood-ese.
> I could say what I want and they wouldn't feel snubbed
> And we could spend hours just shooting the breeze!
>
>
>
> --------------
> I should mention (or maybe not) that for 7 years, Buffy the Vampire Slayer 
> was literally trhe only television show I watched.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Nov 18 21:09:01 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:09:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hate: was - Love
In-Reply-To: <s19cfcb9.003@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19cfcb9.003@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <20041118210226.O44873@kpaul.spinweb.net>

new-poetry
starts up
with none of us
realizing it yet
maybe and that is
good - the list as
a means to a true new
poetry, whatever that is.
surely someone will ask for
a definition and then try to
find a counter assertion for
that definition, the text
book definition of the
old school poets'
gathering en
masse on
the mesa
when it
was still
an oral
tradition
and now
here
we are
once a-
gain a-
round a
virtual
campfire
plying the
trade, trading
jibes one poet
to another, a
different kind
of new-poetry.

in-
deed.

pass
it on.

-kpaul

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Oh, Tony,
>
> I do send you love. You know this.
>
> But go, now. Go marry. Follow your fate and take leave of me. Make thee
> another self for love of me, that beauty still may live in thine or
> thee.
>
> Go have a fish taco (with hot sauce) and think of me: Before you is
> your longish life. Behind me is mine. I'm sorry it will be a life for
> you of basest humiliation, endless obsequiousness, and dark terror. I
> wish it could be different. But you have chosen Poetry.
>
> And it's too late to go back, pal.
>
> I love you, and I love all of the poor members of New Poetry. What
> idiots we are. What worthless pieces of contaminated dirt we poets are.
> What plumpy bags of flesh and slime awaiting the worm.
>
> Where is our Mother Teresa? O, kiss me, Mother. Place your old chapped
> lips on my old chapped lips.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 18 21:14:29 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:14:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
Message-ID: <da.19145ea4.2eceb105@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 3:35:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:

> "In general any strict adherence to a genre begins to feel like a 
> stylization, a stylization taken to the point of parody, despite the 
> artistic intent of the author."
> 
> fr. Mikhail Bakhtin's "Epic and Novel: Toward a Methodology for the Study 
> of the Novel"; quote from page 71 of David Duff's MODERN GENRE THEORY 
> (Longman, 2000); trans Caryl Emerson and Michael Holquist
> 
> 

The problem with this assertion, as attractive as it is, is that
it's hard to come up with a single author it wouldn't tar. 
"Stylization" & not 'genre', being the crux...it's hard to think 
of an admired author who was without the aspect of stylization
even as he/she crossed or subverted genre.
Finnegan
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 21:20:03 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:20:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <02cd01c4cdda$4eb7f5e0$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <079301c4cdde$4e1ca370$b83e1c40@Emily>

Bob,

If a poem is read aloud in a forest and nobody hears it, is it a poem?

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 5:52 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems

> One must have a mind of winter, yeah, but really, it's not very
peopley.
> 
> T.

What's the listener, Tony, a pogo stick?  

--Bob

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 18 21:31:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:31:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <079301c4cdde$4e1ca370$b83e1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <030c01c4cddf$f17c9010$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Bob,
> 
> If a poem is read aloud in a forest and nobody hears it, is it a poem?
> 
> Tony

Only if he's nothing himself.

--Bob



From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 21:53:27 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:53:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Love
In-Reply-To: <s19cfcb9.003@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <079401c4cde2$f82b8080$b83e1c40@Emily>

Kent,

Excuse my semi-plagiarism.

*

I am the gap between what I never was and what I'll never be.

This has caused me a few problems.

*

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 5:49 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Love

Oh, Tony,

I do send you love. You know this. 

But go, now. Go marry. Follow your fate and take leave of me. Make thee
another self for love of me, that beauty still may live in thine or
thee. 

Go have a fish taco (with hot sauce) and think of me: Before you is
your longish life. Behind me is mine. I'm sorry it will be a life for
you of basest humiliation, endless obsequiousness, and dark terror. I
wish it could be different. But you have chosen Poetry.

And it's too late to go back, pal.

I love you, and I love all of the poor members of New Poetry. What
idiots we are. What worthless pieces of contaminated dirt we poets are.
What plumpy bags of flesh and slime awaiting the worm.

Where is our Mother Teresa? O, kiss me, Mother. Place your old chapped
lips on my old chapped lips.





_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Nov 18 21:54:50 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:54:50 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <030c01c4cddf$f17c9010$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <079501c4cde3$2a03aa10$b83e1c40@Emily>

Bob,

Who's the "he," there?  A pogo stick?  Why can't the pogo stick be a
"she"?

All poems are people poems then. But someone already said that.

It was probably that old man, KJ.

Tony



-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:32 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems

> Bob,
> 
> If a poem is read aloud in a forest and nobody hears it, is it a poem?
> 
> Tony

Only if he's nothing himself.

--Bob

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Nov 18 21:57:35 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:57:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <da.19145ea4.2eceb105@aol.com>
References: <da.19145ea4.2eceb105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118203231.02d52338@mail.ilstu.edu>



At 08:14 PM 11/18/2004, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 11/18/2004 3:35:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:
>
>>"In general any strict adherence to a genre begins to feel like a
>>stylization, a stylization taken to the point of parody, despite the
>>artistic intent of the author."
>>
>>fr. Mikhail Bakhtin's "Epic and Novel: Toward a Methodology for the Study
>>of the Novel"; quote from page 71 of David Duff's MODERN GENRE THEORY
>>(Longman, 2000); trans Caryl Emerson and Michael Holquist
>
>
>The problem with this assertion, as attractive as it is, is that
>it's hard to come up with a single author it wouldn't tar.
>"Stylization" & not 'genre', being the crux...it's hard to think
>of an admired author who was without the aspect of stylization
>even as he/she crossed or subverted genre.
>Finnegan

It's actually, for me, EASIER to think of authors who aren't tarred with 
this brush. The reason being it's generally innovative authors who survive 
the tests of time. But remember, it's one phrase lifted from an essay on 
genre evolution in the novel. The passage is about strictly adhering to 
conventions of a genre.  He goes on to say, "What are the salient features 
of the novelization of other genres...? They become more free and flexible, 
their language renews itself by incorporating extraliterary heteroglossia 
and the 'novelistic' layers of literary language, they become dialogized, 
permeated with laughter, irony, humor, elements of self-parody and finally 
-- this is the most important thing -- the novel inserts into these other 
genres an indeterminacy, a certain semantic openendedness, a living contact 
with unfinished, still-evolving contemporary reality (the openended 
present)." (74)

It's a fascinating essay for poets to read. I cd quote more if you like. 
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Nov 18 21:58:11 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:58:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Intentional Self-Parody by Poets
References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041118142759.02a24a70@mail.ilstu.edu><14445398.1100811431055.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com><01e701c4cdcf$6f7ace20$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002301c4cdd2$05219650$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<02ab01c4cdd7$3dd8d620$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <008701c4cde3$9d150fd0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

It's actually even worse than that. In the poem, the spectre looks sort of 
like Mark Strand.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 8:29 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Intentional Self-Parody by Poets


>
>
>>I have a poem in which a spectre accosts me and reads me lines from my 
>>poems, which was meant as a kind of self-parody.
>
> Gah, sounds grossfully masochistic, Mole!
>
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
>> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 7:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
>>
>>
>>> The idea that poets come to parody themselves is a cliche that doesn't 
>>> mean much to me, but this discussion made me wonder if any poet has ever 
>>> intentionally parodied himself.  I tried to make a parody of my 
>>> mathemaku once but wasn't successful.  I hope to give it another try 
>>> sometime.
>>>
>>> --Bob
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 18 22:41:10 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:41:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
Message-ID: <77.38e1340d.2ecec556@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 9:58:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:

> It's actually, for me, EASIER to think of authors who aren't tarred with 
> this brush. The reason being it's generally innovative authors who survive the 
> tests of time. But remember, it's one phrase lifted from an essay on genre 
> evolution in the novel. The passage is about strictly adhering to conventions 
> of a genre.  He goes on to say, "What are the salient features of the 
> novelization of other genres...? They become more free and flexible, their language 
> renews itself by incorporating extraliterary heteroglossia and the 
> 'novelistic' layers of literary language, they become dialogized, permeated with 
> laughter, irony, humor, elements of self-parody and finally -- this is the most 
> important thing -- the novel inserts into these other genres an indeterminacy, a 
> certain semantic openendedness, a living contact with unfinished, 
> still-evolving contemporary reality (the openended present)." (74)
> 
> It's a fascinating essay for poets to read. I cd quote more if you like. 
> 
> 

g, please quote on...if you have the inclination....I like what he's saying
But.who are you thinking of; names of innovators who have escaped
the fate of stylization? The case is being made, from my two
quote view, that one escapes stylization by genre-bending/breaking.
Dickinson was mentioned, and no doubt she pushed the  'genre envelope'...
but she positively defines stylization. Easy to parody, as original 
and incomparable as her work is. To tweak Gombrich: There is no
such thing as literature; there are only writers. And writers are only
known by their styles.
Finnegan
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Thu Nov 18 23:46:04 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:46:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>
References: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411182345380.26584@shell2.oit.umass.edu>

Before Signing the Papers


A sense of what is foreign.
The leaves breaking.  The hills
weighed down with guilt over
the yearly lewd displays. Still
only able to do what they know.
Endless reaches of geese
trying to look brave in their
dissemblings. The cold  navigates
the airways, a lone traveler
trying to reach the gate before
the plane takes off.  Placards go up
in the drugstores and the furrows.
The immensity of it, a whole season
pulled up over the head like a tide
The season left behind for all
of its reasons.  Every flaw
standing out under the elements, naked
as any ruin that has had to pose
helpless and abashed under the eye
of the camera. Asking itself, as it
always does, why?


Kerry O'Keefe




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 19 00:16:43 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:16:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free?
Message-ID: <BDC2DDDB.CFC4%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Below is another poem that doesn't explicitly contain any people.  But, like
the Robert Francis poem I posted earlier, it's certainly saturated with
human presence, and even suggests something of a little narrative.  I'd say
that the lyric charge in this one has everything to do with the tension
between the said and the unsaid, in fact, between the scene as described and
the scene as imagined, either before or after.

Nantucket

Flowers through the window
lavender and yellow

changed by white curtains--
Smell of cleanliness--

Sunshine of late afternoon--
On the glass tray 

a glass pitcher, the tumbler
turned down, by which

a key is lying--And the
immaculate white bed

--William Carlos Williams

Now I'm trying to think of poems (in a realist vein) that don't, at the very
least, employ personification or implied anthropomorphism--and not coming up
with any.

Not thinking of poems like "lighght," though, or "ppeeooppllee," which I
just wrote.  



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Nov 19 00:47:21 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:47:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <97.52c10aa1.2ecee2e9@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/18/2004 5:49:29 PM Central Standard Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes: 
> Rsgwynyummyyum said:
> 
> >Is the proper reaction to Genesis a blank-verse epic? 
> 
> Well, judging from how many people take it literally, probably not.
> 
> (By the way, is there any way that first and last names might be
> attached to some of these cryptic emails addresses? Issues of nominalism
> in poetry are one thing, on a listserv they are another.)
> 
> Kentyjohnnyumyumpants
> 
Yes, Kentwit.  I am Samgwynn, known abroad as Sanguine.  By the way, you are 
an idiot, not a recent one but a longstanding one.  But that's o.k.
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 01:43:01 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:43:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <200411190623.iAJ6NITg063034@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

i see the "faces" in the "trees"

----------
>From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
>Date: Thu, Nov 18, 2004, 8:46 PM
>

> Before Signing the Papers
>
>
> A sense of what is foreign.
> The leaves breaking.  The hills
> weighed down with guilt over
> the yearly lewd displays. Still
> only able to do what they know.
> Endless reaches of geese
> trying to look brave in their
> dissemblings. The cold  navigates
> the airways, a lone traveler
> trying to reach the gate before
> the plane takes off.  Placards go up
> in the drugstores and the furrows.
> The immensity of it, a whole season
> pulled up over the head like a tide
> The season left behind for all
> of its reasons.  Every flaw
> standing out under the elements, naked
> as any ruin that has had to pose
> helpless and abashed under the eye
> of the camera. Asking itself, as it
> always does, why?
>
>
> Kerry O'Keefe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 04:09:17 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:09:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0411182345380.26584@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <00d301c4ce17$72e3adf0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I particularly like this:

... a whole season
pulled up over the head like a tide
The season left behind for all
of its reasons.
...

Anny


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 5:46 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems


> Before Signing the Papers
>
>
> A sense of what is foreign.
> The leaves breaking.  The hills
> weighed down with guilt over
> the yearly lewd displays. Still
> only able to do what they know.
> Endless reaches of geese
> trying to look brave in their
> dissemblings. The cold  navigates
> the airways, a lone traveler
> trying to reach the gate before
> the plane takes off.  Placards go up
> in the drugstores and the furrows.
> The immensity of it, a whole season
> pulled up over the head like a tide
> The season left behind for all
> of its reasons.  Every flaw
> standing out under the elements, naked
> as any ruin that has had to pose
> helpless and abashed under the eye
> of the camera. Asking itself, as it
> always does, why?
>
>
> Kerry O'Keefe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 04:23:43 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:23:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <97.52c10aa1.2ecee2e9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <012201c4ce19$76d9dc70$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

... and thanks all for the ///neEededNDed/// Great Laugh.
A
Sarcastic parossistic grossly enameled splunge into gruesome uncomely beshrewed besetment.
Quaveringly 
Queer

(to be continued)
 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
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From mmagdalinis at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 19 04:45:46 2004
From: mmagdalinis at yahoo.com (mihaela magdalinis)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 01:45:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] remove from the mailing list
Message-ID: <20041119094546.20352.qmail@web14923.mail.yahoo.com>

Please remove me from the mailing list.
Thank you,
Mihaela Magdalinis


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 07:56:49 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:56:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free?
References: <BDC2DDDB.CFC4%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00b801c4ce39$a110b160$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Not thinking of poems like "lighght," though, or "ppeeooppllee," which I
> just wrote.

Right, David.  And here's my imitation of Robert Frost:

I stopped by the liquer store
when snow was on the ground.
But it had more than one door,
which me did confound.

Frost has rhyme, this has rhyme.  The Saroyan poem has extra letters, your 
word has extra letters.

I don't asked you to feel Saroyan's poem, which is beyond you, David, but 
you should be able to understand what it's doing intellectually. Check my 
posts on it here if necessary.

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 08:13:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:13:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
References: <da.19145ea4.2eceb105@aol.com>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041118203231.02d52338@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00b901c4ce39$a15f6da0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Kent: " . . . it's generally innovative authors who survive the tests of time."

I tend to disagree.  I think those who survive the tests of time are given all kinds of undeserved credit for innovation.  Shakespeare didn't innovate, as far as I'm concerned, for instance, but 99% of his critics will tell you about all the wonderful innovations he was responsible for.  (I don't consider creating more rounded characters than anyone else, or the like, a kind of innovation, just a superior standard craftmanship.)  

--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 08:43:07 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:43:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <97.52c10aa1.2ecee2e9@cs.com>
	<012201c4ce19$76d9dc70$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <023201c4ce3d$b4e8f770$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

With a more serious mask, I find some of Alan Sondheim's poems free of people, I am copying here one that appeared some time ago on the Buffalo List. While I think that both poems sent to the list by David Graham recall the presence of people. In Silent Poem by Francis, the first word that recalled to me the presence of man was "cowbarn", at a second reading I detect "grapevine".
And in _Natucket_ by Williams since the very first word: Flowers..., I am brought back to the presence of man.

Here is Sondheim's work:

e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
{ /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i "  a
e e a e e i i o " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { i i " o
e e ou e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e a e a ou ou e o "  i ]+/ { "
} /[ i i e o u i i oo e "  i ]+/ { " } /[ o i i e e a e e a "  "  i e" }
/[a]+/ { o o o a a ey ey ey ey "  "  i i /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { e\!"
} e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" }
e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
{ i i i "  " ey ey ey ey a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { i i "  a a e e a e e i i o
" } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { ]+/ { i " o o e ou ou e a
e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e

a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
+++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ ea ea ea Foo Foo a a 'I o o i i i e e a e :// .a o ei .o
/ u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a a o e o e e y a o e o o o e e e u u i i :
:  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  i i u e e e o o e o o y a e e o e o a e o o e
i ou a i i 4 . u / .o ei o .a :// e e a e e e i i i o o 'I 'I a a Foo Foo
ea ea a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
+++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
+++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ ea ea ea Foo Foo a a 'I 'I o i i i e e e a a e :// .a o
ei ei .o / u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a o e o e e e y a o e e o o o e e e u
i i :  :  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  :  i i

.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP
### PHOENIX.HLP y Va y Va y Va a a o o o o u e e i P oE oE iX Ve io io
2.25. ### Va a o (Rya A A a ) e ai :  o a @u i .  . e EVAL i ([$e ] == [])
{^a i e [ E/X ]} a ia e o {^ e o - e e a $e $0-} e o Loa i PHOENIX.HLP
PHOENIX.HLP i e Ve io 2.25...  a 2.25...  a ia 2 { ^a 2 { ^a i i i PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E i i 2 { ^a 2 { ^a ia ia 2.25...  a io io e Ve i i
PHOENIX.HLP i o Loa o Loa e $0-} $e a e e o - e o {^ e ia [ E/X ]} a e i ]
== []) {^a ([$e EVAL i e .  . i @u a o :  ai ) e a A o (Rya a 2.25. ### Va
2.25. ### Va io iX Ve iX Ve oE P i e e u u o o o o a a y Va y Va y Va ###
PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP .  .  .  .  .
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ###
PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP y Va y Va a a o o o o u u e i i P P oE iX Ve
io 2.25. ### Va a a o (Rya A a ) e ai :  o a a @u i .  . e EVAL i ([$e ]
== []) {^a i e [ E/X ]} a ia e o {^ e o - e e a $e $0-} $0-} e o Loa i
PHOENIX.HLP i e Ve e Ve io io 2.25...  a ia ia 2 { ^a 2 { ^a i i i PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E i i i 2 { ^a 2 { ^a

 -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We #
# \|/ We o o o e e o P o P oE oE iX Ve io 2.25 2.25 o o Va a a o \|/ # \|/
T e ORIGINAL PHOENIX/GARGOYLE -*- A e o Ha o Su i u e \|/ # \|/ Re ea e Da
e: 08/16/95 \|/ # # T i i o i a 2.2.9 a 2.2.9 a ea e ie (a i i oi i # # i
e). I e). I i i o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o i i e). I
e). I i i # i i oi i (a (a ie e e ea 2.2.9 a a i o i i e: 08/16/95 \|/ # #
T e Da ea \|/ # \|/ Re e u i Su o o Ha e e ORIGINAL PHOENIX/GARGOYLE -*- A
o \|/ # \|/ T o \|/ # \|/ T a Va Va o 2.25 2.25 io iX Ve iX Ve oE oE o P o
P e e o o # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We o o
o e e o P o P oE oE iX Ve iX Ve io io 2.25 o Va a o \|/ # \|/ T e ORIGINAL
PHOENIX/GARGOYLE -*- A e o Ha o Su i u e \|/ # \|/ Re ea e Da e: 08/16/95
\|/ # # T i i o i a 2.2.9 a ea e ie ie (a i oi oi i i # i i e). I i i o o
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o i i

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VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED #
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e-- # # O , , i e ea ea e.  T e XDCC Co a a a e ee e o e, a o i u e a # ie
e o e Queue, a Queue i i , I i i ua Pa Mi Mi i u -S ee , # a a e a e oo .
T e e e i a a o a /RV o a /RV o o a a , , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
i i , , , a a o o o a /RV o a /RV a e i e i e .  T oo oo e a a e a , # a
ee -S u i Mi Pa ua i i , I i i e Queue, a Queue o e ie e a # u i o e, a o
e ee e a a a e XDCC Co e.  T e.  T ea e i , , e-- # # O e-- # # O i i y De
y De 2.01 2.01 2.01 # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM 2.01 2.01
y De y De y De i i e-- # # O e-- # # O , i i e e ea e.  T e XDCC Co e XDCC
Co a a e ee e o e, a o i u e a # ie e o e Queue, a Queue i i , I i i ua Pa
Mi i u -S ee , # a a a e a e e oo .  T .  T e e i e i a o a /RV o o a a ,
, , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i , , , a a o
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From lattaj at umich.edu  Fri Nov 19 08:50:57 2004
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:50:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <s19cc576.020@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19cc576.020@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0411190848050.5226@mspacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>


Mmmr, _that'll_ be the last time I toss a pipe bomb and go off
tap-dancing. Next time, I'll stick around.

Kunte Kinte, you funny.


On Thu, 18 Nov 2004, Kent Johnson wrote:

> Oh, so now you're turning against me, LattaJ? Our little honeymoon is
> over? I save you and your blog once a month by sending you erotic,
> suggestive little theaters to post (without attribution, leaving
> everyone guessing) and then you knife me in the back by telling me to
> "pipe down"? (What does that mean, when you think about it, "pipe down"?
> Waht if this is not a pipe, for example? Wait, I take that back, that's
> too obviously cutesy) But also, Lattaj, dont think I don't get your sly
> reference to Mallarme, nor that I didn't think about it in relation to
> this peopleless thread long before you (or especially before the
> stuck-up gigolo Tony) did. But the joke's on you, ha: Poems are made of
> words, not ideas, yes, but words make people and so poems, being
> "thought" by people who think they make them while they are being
> thought at higher dimensions of reality, have people "in them" by virtue
> of their (people) absolute absence, for therer would be no words if
> words didn't have people to think into being, its all very much like
> James Lovelock's Gaia Theory, when you think about it, which itself is
> made up of words--even Jeffers, the fascist, in his lovely poem about
> the Wall of Rock, got thought up before he was carried away by a black
> hawk the size of a hang glider and dropped like (what was the kid's
> name, the son of Daedalus, who Auden wrote the peom about, after the
> painting by Mark Rothko, or was it Robert Morris), much better than
> Stevens's The Rock, that poem by Jeffers, by the way. A huge buck with
> like a fourteen point rack just ran down the sidewalk outside my window.
> Hunting season in Illinois.
>
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 09:26:59 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:26:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for Today 
References: <97.52c10aa1.2ecee2e9@cs.com><012201c4ce19$76d9dc70$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<023201c4ce3d$b4e8f770$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <012901c4ce43$d52c7dd0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Since this entry has to do with New-Poetry, I thought I'd post it here.

19 November 2004.  A short lesson today on the value of negative criticism, even when it's wrong.  I wrote one day at New-Poetry and again in an e.mail to Dan Schneider, and/or here, about "Wilberia," or the small portion of the poetry continuum from Wilbur to Ashbery that professors of English know (and consider themselves to have a wide range of sensitivity for appreciating).  Schneider asked in passing in his essay "denuding" me whether or not it ought to be "Wilburia."  No.  It's a combination of WILbur and ashBERy.

I planned to chide him for his question when I got to that part of his essay in my retort to it, but since then I've realized (as I did at the time, in fact) that my coinage has too much Wilbur in it.  When I made the word, I thought there was no help for that, but now I see that there is" "Wilshberia."

Both poets have written some fine poems, by the way.  Again I must state that I have nothing against Wilshberia, I am just annoyed by those who think it covers the full range of current American Poetry, or all that is worthwhile in American Poetry, like most of the participants at New-Poetry and their pal, Dan Schneider.  David Graham posted a particularly good poem originating in Wilshberia yesterday which I repost below.  (New-poetry is excellent at keeping me in touch with the knownstream.)  I consider it a major lyrical poem. 

Cottage Street, 1953

Framed in her phoenix fire-screen, Edna Ward
Bends to the tray of Canton, pouring tea
For frightened Mrs. Plath; then, turning toward
The pale, slumped daughter, and my wife, and me,

Asks if we would prefer it weak or strong.
Will we have milk or lemon, she enquires?
The visit seems already strained and long.
Each in his turn, we tell her our desires.

It is my office to exemplify
The published poet in his happiness,
Thus cheering Sylvia, who has wished to die;
But half-ashamed, and impotent to bless,

I am a stupid life-guard who has found,
Swept to his shallows by the tide, a girl
Who, far from shore, has been immensely drowned,
And stares through water now with eyes of pearl.

How large is her refusal; and how slight
The genteel chat whereby we recommend
Life, of a summer afternoon, despite
The brewing dusk which hints that it may end.

And Edna Ward shall die in fifteen years,
After her eight-and-eighty summers of 
Such grace and courage as permit no tears,
The thin hand reaching out, the last word *love*,

Outliving Sylvia who, condemned to live,
Shall study for a decade, as she must,
To state at last her brilliant negative
In poems free and helpless and unjust.


--Richard Wilbur


Hey, isn't "Ward/toward" a neat rhyme!<br><p>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 8:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems


  With a more serious mask, I find some of Alan Sondheim's poems free of people, I am copying here one that appeared some time ago on the Buffalo List. While I think that both poems sent to the list by David Graham recall the presence of people. In Silent Poem by Francis, the first word that recalled to me the presence of man was "cowbarn", at a second reading I detect "grapevine".
  And in _Natucket_ by Williams since the very first word: Flowers..., I am brought back to the presence of man.

  Here is Sondheim's work:

  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
  { /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i "  a
  e e a e e i i o " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { i i " o
  e e ou e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e a e a ou ou e o "  i ]+/ { "
  } /[ i i e o u i i oo e "  i ]+/ { " } /[ o i i e e a e e a "  "  i e" }
  /[a]+/ { o o o a a ey ey ey ey "  "  i i /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { e\!"
  } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" }
  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
  { i i i "  " ey ey ey ey a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { i i "  a a e e a e e i i o
  " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { ]+/ { i " o o e ou ou e a
  e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e

  a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
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  NEMBUTSULA!  +++ ea ea ea Foo Foo a a 'I o o i i i e e a e :// .a o ei .o
  / u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a a o e o e e y a o e o o o e e e u u i i :
  :  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  i i u e e e o o e o o y a e e o e o a e o o e
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  NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
  NEMBUTSULA!  +++ ea ea ea Foo Foo a a 'I 'I o i i i e e e a a e :// .a o
  ei ei .o / u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a o e o e e e y a o e e o o o e e e u
  i i :  :  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  :  i i

  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP
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  , , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i , , , a a o



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From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov 19 09:38:52 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:38:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <00b901c4ce39$a15f6da0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <da.19145ea4.2eceb105@aol.com>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041118203231.02d52338@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<00b901c4ce39$a15f6da0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <9153650.1100875132004.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Friday, November 19, 2004, at 08:21AM, Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


Kent: " . . . it's generally innovative authors who survive the tests of time."
 
Bob: I tend to disagree.  I think those who survive the tests of time are given all kinds of undeserved credit for innovation.  Shakespeare didn't innovate, as far as I'm concerned, for instance, but 99% of his critics will tell you about all the wonderful innovations he was responsible for.  (I don't consider creating more rounded characters than anyone else, or the like, a kind of innovation, just a superior standard craftmanship.)  
 
Me: I think Bob's right about this, with at least a couple of caveats. One is that occasionally some new technical resource (printing or pre-stressed concrete or the tempered scale in music) can open huge opportunities to artists who take advantage of them, and those artists sometimes shape whole fields of work for years to come. The second is that sometines an extraordinary artist, or more likely an extraordinary group of artists, can change the public's expectations of an art -- the imagists, for example. But even in such cases it's not clearly the case that the most innovative of the group are the one's remembered. In early 20th century English language poetry,  Pound, Ford, and H.D. were all more innovative than Eliot and Williams. Which ones are read and imitated outside the academy? Are any but Williams remembered in the way cummings or the traditionalist Frost are?


Best, 

Michael


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 10:08:45 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:08:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <023201c4ce3d$b4e8f770$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOAJEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Whoa! Phoenix is a whole cityful of people, many of 'em pretty
old and grizzly, but . . .

Hal         Actual Product May Vary from Photos

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/

  With a more serious mask, I find some of Alan Sondheim's poems free of
people, I am copying here one that appeared some time ago on the Buffalo
List. While I think that both poems sent to the list by David Graham recall
the presence of people. In Silent Poem by Francis, the first word that
recalled to me the presence of man was "cowbarn", at a second reading I
detect "grapevine".
  And in _Natucket_ by Williams since the very first word: Flowers..., I am
brought back to the presence of man.

  Here is Sondheim's work:

  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
  { /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i "  a
  e e a e e i i o " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { i i " o
  e e ou e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e a e a ou ou e o "  i ]+/ { "
  } /[ i i e o u i i oo e "  i ]+/ { " } /[ o i i e e a e e a "  "  i e" }
  /[a]+/ { o o o a a ey ey ey ey "  "  i i /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { e\!"
  } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" }
  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
  { i i i "  " ey ey ey ey a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { i i "  a a e e a e e i i o
  " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { ]+/ { i " o o e ou ou e a
  e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e

  a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
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  / u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a a o e o e e y a o e o o o e e e u u i i :
  :  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  i i u e e e o o e o o y a e e o e o a e o o e
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  i i :  :  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  :  i i

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  , , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i , , , a a o
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 10:30:07 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:30:07 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <30615177.1100878207231.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

In Sondheim's poem, I detect the presence of a word processing machine, which can operate without human intervention but is necessarily programmed by a human . . . usually . . . at this time.

- Jim, who sees the work of sentient beings everywhere!

-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
Sent: Nov 19, 2004 6:43 AM
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &
	Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems

With a more serious mask, I find some of Alan Sondheim's poems free of people, I am copying here one that appeared some time ago on the Buffalo List. While I think that both poems sent to the list by David Graham recall the presence of people. In Silent Poem by Francis, the first word that recalled to me the presence of man was "cowbarn", at a second reading I detect "grapevine".
And in _Natucket_ by Williams since the very first word: Flowers..., I am brought back to the presence of man.

Here is Sondheim's work:

e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
{ /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i "  a
e e a e e i i o " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { i i " o
e e ou e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e a e a ou ou e o "  i ]+/ { "
} /[ i i e o u i i oo e "  i ]+/ { " } /[ o i i e e a e e a "  "  i e" }
/[a]+/ { o o o a a ey ey ey ey "  "  i i /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { e\!"
} e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" }
e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
{ i i i "  " ey ey ey ey a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { i i "  a a e e a e e i i o
" } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { ]+/ { i " o o e ou ou e a
e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e

a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
+++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ ea ea ea Foo Foo a a 'I o o i i i e e a e :// .a o ei .o
/ u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a a o e o e e y a o e o o o e e e u u i i :
:  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  i i u e e e o o e o o y a e e o e o a e o o e
i ou a i i 4 . u / .o ei o .a :// e e a e e e i i i o o 'I 'I a a Foo Foo
ea ea a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
+++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
+++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ ea ea ea Foo Foo a a 'I 'I o i i i e e e a a e :// .a o
ei ei .o / u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a o e o e e e y a o e e o o o e e e u
i i :  :  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  :  i i

.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP
### PHOENIX.HLP y Va y Va y Va a a o o o o u e e i P oE oE iX Ve io io
2.25. ### Va a o (Rya A A a ) e ai :  o a @u i .  . e EVAL i ([$e ] == [])
{^a i e [ E/X ]} a ia e o {^ e o - e e a $e $0-} e o Loa i PHOENIX.HLP
PHOENIX.HLP i e Ve io 2.25...  a 2.25...  a ia 2 { ^a 2 { ^a i i i PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E i i 2 { ^a 2 { ^a ia ia 2.25...  a io io e Ve i i
PHOENIX.HLP i o Loa o Loa e $0-} $e a e e o - e o {^ e ia [ E/X ]} a e i ]
== []) {^a ([$e EVAL i e .  . i @u a o :  ai ) e a A o (Rya a 2.25. ### Va
2.25. ### Va io iX Ve iX Ve oE P i e e u u o o o o a a y Va y Va y Va ###
PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP .  .  .  .  .
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  ### PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP ###
PHOENIX.HLP ### PHOENIX.HLP y Va y Va a a o o o o u u e i i P P oE iX Ve
io 2.25. ### Va a a o (Rya A a ) e ai :  o a a @u i .  . e EVAL i ([$e ]
== []) {^a i e [ E/X ]} a ia e o {^ e o - e e a $e $0-} $0-} e o Loa i
PHOENIX.HLP i e Ve e Ve io io 2.25...  a ia ia 2 { ^a 2 { ^a i i i PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E PTMP
$"-+ E PTMP $"-+ E i i i 2 { ^a 2 { ^a

 -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We #
# \|/ We o o o e e o P o P oE oE iX Ve io 2.25 2.25 o o Va a a o \|/ # \|/
T e ORIGINAL PHOENIX/GARGOYLE -*- A e o Ha o Su i u e \|/ # \|/ Re ea e Da
e: 08/16/95 \|/ # # T i i o i a 2.2.9 a 2.2.9 a ea e ie (a i i oi i # # i
e). I e). I i i o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o i i e). I
e). I i i # i i oi i (a (a ie e e ea 2.2.9 a a i o i i e: 08/16/95 \|/ # #
T e Da ea \|/ # \|/ Re e u i Su o o Ha e e ORIGINAL PHOENIX/GARGOYLE -*- A
o \|/ # \|/ T o \|/ # \|/ T a Va Va o 2.25 2.25 io iX Ve iX Ve oE oE o P o
P e e o o # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX
-LOADPHOENIX -LOADPHOENIX # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We # # \|/ We o o
o e e o P o P oE oE iX Ve iX Ve io io 2.25 o Va a o \|/ # \|/ T e ORIGINAL
PHOENIX/GARGOYLE -*- A e o Ha o Su i u e \|/ # \|/ Re ea e Da e: 08/16/95
\|/ # # T i i o i a 2.2.9 a ea e ie ie (a i oi oi i i # i i e). I i i o o
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o i i

 VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED
VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED #
--VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM 2.01 2.01 2.01 y De y De y De i i
e-- # # O , , i e ea ea e.  T e XDCC Co a a a e ee e o e, a o i u e a # ie
e o e Queue, a Queue i i , I i i ua Pa Mi Mi i u -S ee , # a a e a e oo .
T e e e i a a o a /RV o a /RV o o a a , , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
i i , , , a a o o o a /RV o a /RV a e i e i e .  T oo oo e a a e a , # a
ee -S u i Mi Pa ua i i , I i i e Queue, a Queue o e ie e a # u i o e, a o
e ee e a a a e XDCC Co e.  T e.  T ea e i , , e-- # # O e-- # # O i i y De
y De 2.01 2.01 2.01 # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED VQACTIVE
ENGAGED VQACTIVE ENGAGED # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM # --VeNoM 2.01 2.01
y De y De y De i i e-- # # O e-- # # O , i i e e ea e.  T e XDCC Co e XDCC
Co a a e ee e o e, a o i u e a # ie e o e Queue, a Queue i i , I i i ua Pa
Mi i u -S ee , # a a a e a e e oo .  T .  T e e i e i a o a /RV o o a a ,
, , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i , , , a a o


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 10:30:01 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:30:01 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOAJEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <02a701c4ce4c$a3410440$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I like this cityful Hal, but if you read a little further down, you have LOADPHOENIX which decontextualizes Phoenix as a city, thus the load of people. Be them Grizzly or not, care, anny

----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 4:08 PM


  Whoa! Phoenix is a whole cityful of people, many of 'em pretty
  old and grizzly, but . . .

  Hal         Actual Product May Vary from Photos

  Halvard Johnson
  ===============
  email: halvard at earthlink.net
  website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ 

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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Nov 19 10:36:05 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:36:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <193.333065fc.2ecf6ce5@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 8:44:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
Here is Sondheim's work:

e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
{ /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i
It's not playing fair if the poem doesn't make sense...
too easy to eschew people if you aren't being intelligible. 
Finnegan
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 19 10:41:28 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:41:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A489@mail.ripon.edu>




> 	Here is Sondheim's work:
> 	 
> 	e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/
> { /^$/
> 	{ /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i
> 
> It's not playing fair if the poem doesn't make sense...
> too easy to eschew people if you aren't being intelligible. 
> Finnegan
--------------------

Ah, Jim, you're so unenlighghtened!



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Nov 19 10:56:05 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:56:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <105.55652a4e.2ecf7195@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 10:42:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:
unenlighghtened
I say that the 'embedded' Saroyan above qualifies.
It cheats a little because of its brevity...'
haiku too are little too short to play the game
on the up & up.

I was looking through a short study of imagism
last night and I was amazed how many of the
poems, though short, were well populated
with the human element.

'Between Walls' by William Carlos Williams
was the poem I was looking for. I found it
in his ND Selected. But it too seemed to
fail the test by 'making too much of' what
was being seen.
Finnegan
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From eeksypeeksy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 10:58:48 2004
From: eeksypeeksy at gmail.com (Malcolm Davidson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:58:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 52
In-Reply-To: <200411191525.iAJFPOAm020274@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200411191525.iAJFPOAm020274@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3dfe832304111907584233ef36@mail.gmail.com>

I think I'm having font trouble. Where everyone else apparently sees a
poem by Alan Sondheim, I see:

>  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
>  { /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i "  a
>  e e a e e i i o " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { i i " o
>  e e ou e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e a e a ou ou e o "  i ]+/ { "
>  } /[ i i e o u i i oo e "  i ]+/ { " } /[ o i i e e a e e a "  "  i e" }
>  /[a]+/ { o o o a a ey ey ey ey "  "  i i /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { e\!"
>  } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" }
>  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
>  { i i i "  " ey ey ey ey a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { i i "  a a e e a e e i i o
>  " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { ]+/ { i " o o e ou ou e a
>  e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e

Can someone point me to a good copy of the poem?

Malcolm
http://dumbfoundry.blogspot.com


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 11:01:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:01:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <30615177.1100878207231.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <017401c4ce51$152251a0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> In Sondheim's poem, I detect the presence of a word processing machine, 
> which can operate without human intervention but is necessarily programmed 
> by a human . . . usually . . . at this time.
>
> - Jim, who sees the work of sentient beings everywhere!

Jim, let's switch to painting: if you were REQUIRED to put a still life, a 
typical photograph by Ansel Adams, a portrait by Valesquez, and 
Gainsborough's "Blue Boy" into two separate piles on the basis of subject 
matter, do you think you'd have a hard time doing so?

But I agree that Alan's poem has people in it--because, for one thing, it's 
something only a human could produce, unlike a mountain range or a sunset.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 11:01:58 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:01:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <193.333065fc.2ecf6ce5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02d301c4ce51$19d8d4d0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Yes, I agree. But I still see this text as an attempt to erase the self from his own writing. And maybe the only one free from people, even if, as Jim Cervantes said, behind there is a person operating the system, but what as a matter of fact is visible of this person (the operator) becomes almost inexistent.

On the other hand, any software program, or technical paper can be a poem without people in it. Fact is that this writing escapes all rules, and is not self-gratifying, nor from a visual point of view or in content. One can approach it to poetry because we know who the author is, but again we are speaking of a person.


From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 4:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems


  In a message dated 11/19/2004 8:44:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
    Here is Sondheim's work:

    e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
    { /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i
  It's not playing fair if the poem doesn't make sense...
  too easy to eschew people if you aren't being intelligible. 
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 19 11:06:54 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:06:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] People Free No End
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A48B@mail.ripon.edu>

The only poem of my own that I can think of which approaches people-freeness
is this old one:

End of Summer

No, never an end--

No closure in the rank, pulpy husks
of black walnuts littering the lawn.
No lines in nature, just ragged, blurry close-ups.

Day after day the creeping damp,
largo of cicadas in the trees,
sap-heavy limbs ready for storm.

The pale green mists of late August
wholly without predicate.

No end?  No, and no beginning, either.
Day after day steady as my heart.
	============

I was doing pretty well there until the last line. . . .

This was an exercise, actually, in seeing if I could compose a lyric without
main verbs and still create some sense of forward motion.  

Writing a poem without verbs is every bit as absurd as writing one without
people.
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Nov 19 11:06:20 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:06:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <1d5.2fc61165.2ecf73fc@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 10:57:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:

'Between Walls' by William Carlos Williams
was the poem I was looking for. I found it
in his ND Selected...

Between Walls
 
the back wings
of the 
 
hospital where 
nothing 
 
will grow lie 
cinders 
 
in which shine 
the broken 
 
pieces of a green 
bottle 

--William Carlos Williams
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Nov 19 11:08:30 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:08:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Terz
In-Reply-To: <200411191310.iAJD9xAl019426@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119075400.00c12f80@incoming.verizon.net>

    been won over, am joinin' up -- perpend:

      A SHORTISH POEM WHICH NONETHELESS
         HATH TERZ SCENT OF PO'T TO'T (toot)

                         g*gibr>err^re+sh
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 11:08:08 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:08:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <193.333065fc.2ecf6ce5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <018501c4ce51$f691f550$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 8:44:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

Here is Sondheim's work:

    e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
    { /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i
  It's not playing fair if the poem doesn't make sense...
  too easy to eschew people if you aren't being intelligible. 
  Finnegan
  This poem may make sense, but it seems to me a verbal design poem, which puts it in one of the two categories of poems I think not about people.  So, for me it counts as a peoplefree poem.  I don't see why the ease or difficulty of leaving out people should matter.  Nor, really, why it isn't extremely easy to leave people explicitly out of any kind of poem.  



  --Bob G. 
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Fri Nov 19 11:10:11 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:10:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <77.38e1340d.2ecec556@aol.com>
References: <77.38e1340d.2ecec556@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041119100042.02ccb678@mail.ilstu.edu>


>
>g, please quote on...if you have the inclination....I like what he's saying
>But.who are you thinking of; names of innovators who have escaped
>the fate of stylization? The case is being made, from my two
>quote view, that one escapes stylization by genre-bending/breaking.
>Dickinson was mentioned, and no doubt she pushed the  'genre envelope'...
>but she positively defines stylization. Easy to parody, as original
>and incomparable as her work is. To tweak Gombrich: There is no
>such thing as literature; there are only writers. And writers are only
>known by their styles.
>Finnegan

Finnegan, good points, am away from the book now but when I get back to my 
office later I'll quote some more maybe. I think it's important to remember 
that Bakhtin is talking about the evolution of genres, so looking at how 
Dickinson looks now, for instance, isnt a good way to determine how she was 
or was not stylized when she was writing. So yes she is really easy to 
parody Now, and that's the point Bakhtin was making: the genres are 
constantly evolving, some more than others.

There's a hangup in our usage I think -- having a style is not what B means 
by being stylized. He means that a writer is stylized when she or he 
adheres too strictly to genre conventions. That's different from a writer 
having a recognizable style or gig. So when Bakhtin's talking about 
stylization, he means the act of adhering to conventions. As we all know ED 
broke a lot of conventions. more anon. g
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 11:16:25 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:16:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A489@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <018a01c4ce53$1e606de0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>
>
>
>> Here is Sondheim's work:
>>
>> e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/
>> { /^$/
>> { /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i
>>
>> It's not playing fair if the poem doesn't make sense...
>> too easy to eschew people if you aren't being intelligible.
>> Finnegan
> --------------------
>
> Ah, Jim, you're so unenlighghtened!


Only temporarily.  He does try to get a fix on all the varieties of poetry, 
at times.  Maybe you have, too, David, but I don't recall anything 
indicating that in your posts, just--for the most part--amiable smugness 
from the middlest float in the knownstream.

--Bob 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 11:44:36 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:44:36 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <97.52c10aa1.2ecee2e9@cs.com><012201c4ce19$76d9dc70$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<023201c4ce3d$b4e8f770$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <036501c4ce57$0e7a4ff0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

It is a coincidence, but this translation of the introduction of the catalogue for a future exhibit of Donald Baechler's artwork by Valerio Deh? I have just started can explain maybe better why I perceived Williams' Flowers as being full of human presence.  

     Flowers have an advantage: they smell. On television they are not well depicted, they look like photographs, desktop wallpapers bestowing amenities, silliness for all. Among the collection of contemporary stupidity, flowers remain unaltered in their value, they cannot be mistaken with anything else. They can be mawkish as an impressionist picture, but they will always be something untouchable and eternal. Some members of the family, like the rose, have later on become symbols that go beyond earthly beauty and are something spiritual, if not even sacred. The rose is, in fact, the symbol of love and this is true both for what has been established among men, but also for what is divine. It is a flower that has a secret heart, which opens to the knowledge of the Other. Each petal is a promise, its thorns make the blood of the lover spurt while he is offering his love. Blood and perfume are opposed, they attract and repel one another, as it happens by all the kinds of Love we know. The month of Mary is in fact the one in which roses blossom. Nature and absolute finally agree. The Holy Mary is always surrounded by these flowers and we all know that she did not exclusively prefer earthly love, as her husband, later Saint Joseph, well knew.

      But the rose is a flower that enjoys an ETERNAL glory. Its petals, fragrance, colors, all concur to create a limitless myth.

  From: Anny Ballardini 
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 2:43 PM


  With a more serious mask, I find some of Alan Sondheim's poems free of people, I am copying here one that appeared some time ago on the Buffalo List. While I think that both poems sent to the list by David Graham recall the presence of people. In Silent Poem by Francis, the first word that recalled to me the presence of man was "cowbarn", at a second reading I detect "grapevine".
  And in _Natucket_ by Williams since the very first word: Flowers..., I am brought back to the presence of man.

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 11:56:38 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:56:38 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 52
References: <200411191525.iAJFPOAm020274@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<3dfe832304111907584233ef36@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <039201c4ce58$bd322300$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi Malcolm, this is the _poem_.

This is all I have, said the old woman, once you take man away.
>From the Norse Tales by Niurkiyien.

From: "Malcolm Davidson" <eeksypeeksy at gmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 4:58 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 52


> I think I'm having font trouble. Where everyone else apparently sees a
> poem by Alan Sondheim, I see:
>
> >  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ {
/^$/
> >  { /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i "
a
> >  e e a e e i i o " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { i i "
o
> >  e e ou e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e a e a ou ou e o "  i ]+/
{ "
> >  } /[ i i e o u i i oo e "  i ]+/ { " } /[ o i i e e a e e a "  "  i
e" }
> >  /[a]+/ { o o o a a ey ey ey ey "  "  i i /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ {
e\!"
> >  } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" }
> >  e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ {
/^$/
> >  { i i i "  " ey ey ey ey a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { i i "  a a e e a e e i i
o
> >  " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { ]+/ { i " o o e ou ou e
a
> >  e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e
>
> Can someone point me to a good copy of the poem?
>
> Malcolm
> http://dumbfoundry.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Nov 19 12:01:35 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:01:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem without People in't
In-Reply-To: <200411191602.iAJG2IAl020675@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119090002.00c0bfb8@incoming.verizon.net>

       IN THE FIELDS

it's rainingrainingraining
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Fri Nov 19 12:13:47 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:13:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
In-Reply-To: <00b901c4ce39$a15f6da0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <da.19145ea4.2eceb105@aol.com>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041118203231.02d52338@mail.ilstu.edu>
	<00b901c4ce39$a15f6da0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041119103314.02cd2bd0@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 07:13 AM 11/19/2004, Bob Grumman wrote:
>Kent: " . . . it's generally innovative authors who survive the tests of 
>time."
>
>I tend to disagree.  I think those who survive the tests of time are given 
>all kinds of undeserved credit for innovation.  Shakespeare didn't 
>innovate, as far as I'm concerned, for instance, but 99% of his critics 
>will tell you about all the wonderful innovations he was responsible 
>for.  (I don't consider creating more rounded characters than anyone else, 
>or the like, a kind of innovation, just a superior standard craftmanship.)
>
>--Bob

Bob, you know there's a scholar who lurks on this list name of Alan Golding 
who wrote a great book about this kind of institutional level denial, it's 
called FROM OUTLAW TO CLASSIC. A general idea is that innovators get 
co-opted by folks who say they never really made waves, never shook stuff up.
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 13:01:49 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:01:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for Today 
Message-ID: <200411191742.iAJHg7Tg250362@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

When you talk (write) like this Bob, it sounds like you're for widening the
range of what
"professors of English" call poetry, but again and again I come back to that
basic
question (or argument, if you will) that came up between us a few years
back--
How can you truly argue that you want to expand "the poetry continuum," or
want others to acknowledge a wider range of poetry beyond "wilberia," when
at the same time you have
made claims that poems by Amiri Baraka, for instance, should not be called
poems?


----------
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for Today
Date: Fri, Nov 19, 2004, 6:26 AM


Since this entry has to do with New-Poetry, I thought I'd post it here.

19 November 2004.  A short lesson today on the value of negative criticism,
even when it's wrong.  I wrote one day at New-Poetry and again in an e.mail
to Dan Schneider, and/or here, about "Wilberia," or the small portion of the
poetry continuum from Wilbur to Ashbery that professors of English know (and
consider themselves to have a wide range of sensitivity for appreciating).
Schneider asked in passing in his essay "denuding" me whether or not it
ought to be "Wilburia."  No.  It's a combination of WILbur and ashBERy.

I planned to chide him for his question when I got to that part of his essay
in my retort to it, but since then I've realized (as I did at the time, in
fact) that my coinage has too much Wilbur in it.  When I made the word, I
thought there was no help for that, but now I see that there is"
"Wilshberia."

Both poets have written some fine poems, by the way.  Again I must state
that I have nothing against Wilshberia, I am just annoyed by those who think
it covers the full range of current American Poetry, or all that is
worthwhile in American Poetry, like most of the participants at New-Poetry
and their pal, Dan Schneider.  David Graham posted a particularly good poem
originating in Wilshberia yesterday which I repost below.  (New-poetry is
excellent at keeping me in touch with the knownstream.)  I consider it a
major lyrical poem.

Cottage Street, 1953

Framed in her phoenix fire-screen, Edna Ward
Bends to the tray of Canton, pouring tea
For frightened Mrs. Plath; then, turning toward
The pale, slumped daughter, and my wife, and me,

Asks if we would prefer it weak or strong.
Will we have milk or lemon, she enquires?
The visit seems already strained and long.
Each in his turn, we tell her our desires.

It is my office to exemplify
The published poet in his happiness,
Thus cheering Sylvia, who has wished to die;
But half-ashamed, and impotent to bless,

I am a stupid life-guard who has found,
Swept to his shallows by the tide, a girl
Who, far from shore, has been immensely drowned,
And stares through water now with eyes of pearl.

How large is her refusal; and how slight
The genteel chat whereby we recommend
Life, of a summer afternoon, despite
The brewing dusk which hints that it may end.

And Edna Ward shall die in fifteen years,
After her eight-and-eighty summers of
Such grace and courage as permit no tears,
The thin hand reaching out, the last word *love*,

Outliving Sylvia who, condemned to live,
Shall study for a decade, as she must,
To state at last her brilliant negative
In poems free and helpless and unjust.


--Richard Wilbur


Hey, isn't "Ward/toward" a neat rhyme!<br><p>


----- Original Message -----
From: Anny Ballardini <mailto:anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
<mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems

With a more serious mask, I find some of Alan Sondheim's poems free of
people, I am copying here one that appeared some time ago on the Buffalo
List. While I think that both poems sent to the list by David Graham recall
the presence of people. In Silent Poem by Francis, the first word that
recalled to me the presence of man was "cowbarn", at a second reading I
detect "grapevine".
And in _Natucket_ by Williams since the very first word: Flowers..., I am
brought back to the presence of man.

Here is Sondheim's work:

e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
{ /^$/ { i i i "  " ey ey ey a a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { e" } /[a]+/ { i "  a
e e a e e i i o " } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { i i " o
e e ou e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e a e a ou ou e o "  i ]+/ { "
} /[ i i e o u i i oo e "  i ]+/ { " } /[ o i i e e a e e a "  "  i e" }
/[a]+/ { o o o a a ey ey ey ey "  "  i i /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { e\!"
} e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" }
e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } e\!" } /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/ { /^$/
{ i i i "  " ey ey ey ey a o o o e" } /[a]+/ { i i "  a a e e a e e i i o
" } /[ ]+/ { i "  e oo i i u o e i " } /[ ]+/ { ]+/ { i " o o e ou ou e a
e a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e

a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!
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/ u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a a o e o e e y a o e o o o e e e u u i i :
:  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  i i u e e e o o e o o y a e e o e o a e o o e
i ou a i i 4 . u / .o ei o .a :// e e a e e e i i i o o 'I 'I a a Foo Foo
ea ea a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
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+++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a! NEMBUTSULA!  +++ a!
NEMBUTSULA!  +++ ea ea ea Foo Foo a a 'I 'I o i i i e e e a a e :// .a o
ei ei .o / u .  4 i i a ou i e o e o a o e o e e e y a o e e o o o e e e u
i i :  :  :  a a a a a a a a :  :  :  i i

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\|/ # # T i i o i a 2.2.9 a ea e ie ie (a i oi oi i i # i i e). I i i o o
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o i i

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e o e Queue, a Queue i i , I i i ua Pa Mi Mi i u -S ee , # a a e a e oo .
T e e e i a a o a /RV o a /RV o o a a , , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i
i i , , , a a o o o a /RV o a /RV a e i e i e .  T oo oo e a a e a , # a
ee -S u i Mi Pa ua i i , I i i e Queue, a Queue o e ie e a # u i o e, a o
e ee e a a a e XDCC Co e.  T e.  T ea e i , , e-- # # O e-- # # O i i y De
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y De y De y De i i e-- # # O e-- # # O , i i e e ea e.  T e XDCC Co e XDCC
Co a a e ee e o e, a o i u e a # ie e o e Queue, a Queue i i , I i i ua Pa
Mi i u -S ee , # a a a e a e e oo .  T .  T e e i e i a o a /RV o o a a ,
, , i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i , , , a a o

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Nov 19 13:06:09 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:06:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for Today 
In-Reply-To: <200411191742.iAJHg7Tg250362@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <419DEFC1.728.6EDC39@localhost>

On 19 Nov 2004 at 10:01, Chris Stroffolino wrote:
> ... How can you truly argue that you want to expand
> "the poetry continuum," or want others to acknowledge a wider range of
> poetry beyond "wilberia," when at the same time you have made claims
> that poems by Amiri Baraka, for instance, should not be called poems?

That's easy -- Mr Grumman isn't interested in widening the range of 
poetry, he's interested in leveling all kinds of poetry to the same 
level by labeling them within a pseudo-scientific arrangement so that 
his kind of poetry looks like it's as important as any kind of poetry 
because no kind of poetry is any more important in his system than 
any other. His system of categorization of poetry explicitly excludes 
any reference to quality of work in any sense of "quality" or "work" 
specifically to ensure that his work is included in the system of 
categorization without prejudice.

Marcus





From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Nov 19 13:31:29 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:31:29 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nothing New, Just Driven Crazy As Usual by Our Bob
In-Reply-To: <200411191801.iAJI1qAl021929@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119102152.00c125a0@incoming.verizon.net>

At 01:01 PM 11/19/2004 -0500, Marcus wrote:

>That's easy -- Mr Grumman isn't interested in widening the range of
>poetry, he's interested in leveling all kinds of poetry to the same
>level by labeling them within a pseudo-scientific arrangement so that
>his kind of poetry looks like it's as important as any kind of poetry
>because no kind of poetry is any more important in his system than
>any other. His system of categorization of poetry explicitly excludes
>any reference to quality of work in any sense of "quality" or "work"
>specifically to ensure that his work is included in the system of
>categorization without prejudice.

Plus add: using vilifying labels for Others and self-loving ones for his own.

B.
                                 LABELS
The words we use we become;
shaped by sound after sound;

by the choice of a theme, by the placing
of a comma.

This apple's stuck-on label --
damned thing makes the apple

less real. Some spin-meister gets in there
diminishing native eloquence,

glues his sticky concept-thing
on the apple, intent to de-mean.

Oh, also many people
transformed into labels

(how does it feel to be forced to wear
a Yellow Star?)

Yes, and many walking concepts,
folks become billboards reading

"Niche-demographic here!"
"Bargain Days!"  "Choose Me!"

O clean us, release us again
as miracle, taste, color, each

unmarked dear one shining
like an apple.

                 -- Barry Spacks

*********









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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 13:44:07 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:44:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] surviving the tests of time
Message-ID: <s19dea9f.029@mail.highland.edu>

Bob "quoteth" me:

>Kent: " . . . it's generally innovative authors who survive the tests
of time."

Bob, I never said that. I don't think. Did I?

Kent



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 13:50:19 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:50:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] sanguine
Message-ID: <s19dec2a.033@mail.highland.edu>

"Rsgwynn" said:

>Yes, Kentwit.  I am Samgwynn, known abroad as Sanguine.  By the way, 
>you are an idiot, not a recent one but a longstanding one.  But that's
o.k.

Good then, sanguine Samgwynn... I'm OK, You're OK.

Kent



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Fri Nov 19 13:52:59 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:52:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] surviving the tests of time
In-Reply-To: <s19dea9f.029@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19dea9f.029@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041119125151.02a8e4a0@mail.ilstu.edu>

I think it was me he was quoting, Kent. We're interchangeable, as you know. g

At 12:44 PM 11/19/2004, you wrote:
>Bob "quoteth" me:
>
> >Kent: " . . . it's generally innovative authors who survive the tests
>of time."
>
>Bob, I never said that. I don't think. Did I?
>
>Kent



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 14:09:36 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:09:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] surviving the tests of time
Message-ID: <s19df0b0.045@mail.highland.edu>

Gabe Gudding spaketh:

>I think it was me he was quoting, Kent. We're interchangeable, as you

know. g

I know, Kent. We're like identical twins in some kind of comedy of
errors.

(You will take care of my son at the Vipassana retreat this coming
week, bikkhu, right?)

gabe



From jsafdie at comcast.net  Fri Nov 19 14:16:40 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:16:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] surviving the tests of time
References: <s19dea9f.029@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041119125151.02a8e4a0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <022401c4ce6c$4cd45470$56001118@D6T95L21>



>I think it was me he was quoting, Kent. We're interchangeable, as you know. 
>g

Gabe, thanks a lot for clearing that up -- it explains a lot.

Now, is "Gabe Gudding" a heteronym of "Kent Johnson" or is it the other way 
around?

And your e-mails -- are they meant to be in different styles, or genres, 
depending on who's identified in the "To:" line?

I'm sure glad we get to talk about important issues on this list. I was 
beginning to despair . . .




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 14:33:09 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:33:09 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] People Free No End
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A48B@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <419E4A75.C90DE190@earthlink.net>

Ah, David.  Had it appeared in the mist of a warming pond in early
winter, I would have thought it anonymous and people-free.  But now,
alas, I can't.

- Jim

p.s. - Is there a place where cigarette smoke hangs out by itself, people-free?

"Graham, David" wrote:
> 
> The only poem of my own that I can think of which approaches people-freeness
> is this old one:
> 
> End of Summer
> 
> No, never an end--
> 
> No closure in the rank, pulpy husks
> of black walnuts littering the lawn.
> No lines in nature, just ragged, blurry close-ups.
> 
> Day after day the creeping damp,
> largo of cicadas in the trees,
> sap-heavy limbs ready for storm.
> 
> The pale green mists of late August
> wholly without predicate.
> 
> No end?  No, and no beginning, either.
> Day after day steady as my heart.
>         ============
> 
> I was doing pretty well there until the last line. . . .
> 
> This was an exercise, actually, in seeing if I could compose a lyric without
> main verbs and still create some sense of forward motion.
> 
> Writing a poem without verbs is every bit as absurd as writing one without
> people.
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 14:37:15 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:37:15 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <97.52c10aa1.2ecee2e9@cs.com><012201c4ce19$76d9dc70$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<023201c4ce3d$b4e8f770$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<036501c4ce57$0e7a4ff0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <419E4B6B.E3373A30@earthlink.net>

Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Flowers have an advantage: they smell. On television they are not well depicted, they look like
> photographs, desktop wallpapers bestowing amenities, silliness for all. Among the collection of
> contemporary stupidity, flowers remain unaltered in their value, they cannot be mistaken with anything else.
> They can be mawkish as an impressionist picture, but they will always be something untouchable and
> eternal. Some members of the family, like the rose, have later on become symbols that go beyond earthly
> beauty and are something spiritual, if not even sacred. The rose is, in fact, the symbol of love and this is true
> both for what has been established among men, but also for what is divine. It is a flower that has a secret
> heart, which opens to the knowledge of the Other. Each petal is a promise, its thorns make the blood of the
> lover spurt while he is offering his love. Blood and perfume are opposed, they attract and repel one another,
> as it happens by all the kinds of Love we know. The month of Mary is in fact the one in which roses
> blossom. Nature and absolute finally agree. The Holy Mary is always surrounded by these flowers and we
> all know that she did not exclusively prefer earthly love, as her husband, later Saint Joseph, well
> knew.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
> 
>       But the rose is a flower that enjoys an ETERNAL glory. Its petals, fragrance, colors, all concur to create a
> limitless myth.

Ah, Gertrude, the limitless myth.

- Jim-of-the-one-line


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 14:39:07 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:39:07 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem without People in't
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119090002.00c0bfb8@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <419E4BDB.D6603952@earthlink.net>



Barry Spacks wrote:
> 
>       IN THE FIELDS
> 
> it's rainingrainingraining

My good man, the prepositions give you away.

Fields

rainingrainingraining

- Jim


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 14:42:06 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:42:06 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <30615177.1100878207231.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
	<017401c4ce51$152251a0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <419E4C8E.E743422A@earthlink.net>



Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > In Sondheim's poem, I detect the presence of a word processing machine,
> > which can operate without human intervention but is necessarily programmed
> > by a human . . . usually . . . at this time.
> >
> > - Jim, who sees the work of sentient beings everywhere!
> 
> Jim, let's switch to painting: if you were REQUIRED to put a still life, a
> typical photograph by Ansel Adams, a portrait by Valesquez, and
> Gainsborough's "Blue Boy" into two separate piles on the basis of subject
> matter, do you think you'd have a hard time doing so?

No.

> 
> But I agree that Alan's poem has people in it--because, for one thing, it's
> something only a human could produce, unlike a mountain range or a sunset.

Tell that to Christo.

- Jim


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 15:03:33 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:03:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
Message-ID: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>

You know, I scrolled up the archives just now and noticed something
curious. I could be wrong, but since November 3rd, when Maxine
Chernoff
sent in a post, the only non-male[*] to have posted to the list appears
to have been Anny Ballardini. But Anny is one of the moderators, so she
kind of has to. 

This is interesting. What gives?
Kent

[*] I had honestly been under the impression that Rsgwynn was female,
until learning that the 's' stands for Sam. Unless Sam is short for
Samantha, which it may well be (my sister-in-law's called Sam), my point
holds...


From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri Nov 19 15:12:57 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:12:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <00d301c4ce17$72e3adf0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0411182345380.26584@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
	<00d301c4ce17$72e3adf0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411191034030.21120@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

merci, Anny.

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> I particularly like this:
>
> ... a whole season
> pulled up over the head like a tide
> The season left behind for all
> of its reasons.
> ...
>
> Anny
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerry O'Keefe" <jkok at hfa.umass.edu>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 5:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
>
>
> > Before Signing the Papers
> >
> >
> > A sense of what is foreign.
> > The leaves breaking.  The hills
> > weighed down with guilt over
> > the yearly lewd displays. Still
> > only able to do what they know.
> > Endless reaches of geese
> > trying to look brave in their
> > dissemblings. The cold  navigates
> > the airways, a lone traveler
> > trying to reach the gate before
> > the plane takes off.  Placards go up
> > in the drugstores and the furrows.
> > The immensity of it, a whole season
> > pulled up over the head like a tide
> > The season left behind for all
> > of its reasons.  Every flaw
> > standing out under the elements, naked
> > as any ruin that has had to pose
> > helpless and abashed under the eye
> > of the camera. Asking itself, as it
> > always does, why?
> >
> >
> > Kerry O'Keefe
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri Nov 19 15:13:37 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:13:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
In-Reply-To: <00d301c4ce17$72e3adf0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <42.5cb3bf7c.2eceab56@aol.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0411182345380.26584@shell2.oit.umass.edu>
	<00d301c4ce17$72e3adf0$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411191513090.21120@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

I mean, mille grazie! Ciao




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 19 15:28:42 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 21:28:42 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
References: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <013d01c4ce76$5d186880$dfaa3252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

No Kent, I do not have to, I post because I want to. I anyhow had your same
thought.

Women usually have a lot to do. I post because I am a man. I use pictures of
a woman who still has to be born. Please do not tell anybody. It is a
special deal I had with some E.T.'s I met down in the corn fields while it
was raining. They asked me some info which I could easily give, some silly
things. They wanted to know who was our god, what we believed in, you know,
kids full of ideals. I sort of tried not to tell the whole truth and
compromised a little. You know, they actually believed that we believed in
something. On the other hand when I told them of these Poetry Lists, and
seen how our world was spinning without hinges they said that we were mad,
absolutely mad, that we could spend days in front of a screen speaking for
the sake of poetry ("What is it", one of them asked), that we got angry
because of a comma, a rhyme a drawing a concept - ah you should have seen
them laugh. They were nice, after all. So when they asked me what I wanted,
I told them that I could accept the virtual image of a woman, they did have
some impressive equipment and in just about a sec they visualized some
hundreds of possibilities. I picked up this one, I have no idea why, but I
thought she was sort of less obliging, something in the middle, sort of
common.
Then they disappeared. I even thought it was a dream, things that happen to
you when you are under stress or feverish. But then I started playing with
her, sending out messages, and ... well it works, it seems she is alive.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:03 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina


> You know, I scrolled up the archives just now and noticed something
> curious. I could be wrong, but since November 3rd, when Maxine
> Chernoff
> sent in a post, the only non-male[*] to have posted to the list appears
> to have been Anny Ballardini. But Anny is one of the moderators, so she
> kind of has to.
>
> This is interesting. What gives?
> Kent
>
> [*] I had honestly been under the impression that Rsgwynn was female,
> until learning that the 's' stands for Sam. Unless Sam is short for
> Samantha, which it may well be (my sister-in-law's called Sam), my point
> holds...
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Nov 19 15:31:10 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:10 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yep, a lingering remnant remained
In-Reply-To: <200411192009.iAJK9MAl023262@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119122259.00c56020@incoming.verizon.net>

At 03:09 PM 11/19/2004 -0500, Jim wrote:


>Barry Spacks wrote:
> >
> >       IN THE FIELDS
> >
> > it's rainingrainingraining
>
>My good man, the prepositions give you away.
>
>Fields
>
>rainingrainingraining
>
>- Jim

true enough, granted -- strict workshopping, this Eradication of the Damned 
Umbilicus

B.
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From jkok at hfa.umass.edu  Fri Nov 19 15:42:21 2004
From: jkok at hfa.umass.edu (Kerry O'Keefe)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:42:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
In-Reply-To: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411191528490.21120@shell1.oit.umass.edu>

???

Jane Kerrigan Marie O'Keefe

Without getting in to issues of gender, which I would be happy to do in
a heartbeat if I woudn't be sure to offend EVERYONE which frankly I don't
have the energy for, I will simply say that this occasionally useful
list-serv does make me certain the human animal is simply not designed to
accommodate peace.  After all is said and done, we don't seem to LIKE it.
I mean, wonder if these little camps of dreadful theory were pieces of, say,
land??  WORTH MONEY??? Etc. etc.

Where are the women???

We are writing poems, of course.





On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, Kent Johnson wrote:

> You know, I scrolled up the archives just now and noticed something
> curious. I could be wrong, but since November 3rd, when Maxine
> Chernoff
> sent in a post, the only non-male[*] to have posted to the list appears
> to have been Anny Ballardini. But Anny is one of the moderators, so she
> kind of has to.
>
> This is interesting. What gives?
> Kent
>
> [*] I had honestly been under the impression that Rsgwynn was female,
> until learning that the 's' stands for Sam. Unless Sam is short for
> Samantha, which it may well be (my sister-in-law's called Sam), my point
> holds...
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov 19 15:52:54 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:52:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
In-Reply-To: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
References: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <13444790.1100897574678.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Friday, November 19, 2004, at 03:04PM, Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu> wrote:

>You know, I scrolled up the archives just now and noticed something
>curious. I could be wrong, but since November 3rd, when Maxine
>Chernoff
>sent in a post, the only non-male[*] to have posted to the list appears
>to have been Anny Ballardini. But Anny is one of the moderators, so she
>kind of has to. 
>
>This is interesting. What gives?
>Kent
>
>[*] I had honestly been under the impression that Rsgwynn was female,
>until learning that the 's' stands for Sam. Unless Sam is short for
>Samantha, which it may well be (my sister-in-law's called Sam), my point
>holds...

MillB, terzarima, and Kerry O'Keefe are, to the best of my knowledge, female, and Sam Gwynn is definitely male.

But the clear majority of the posts have been by men, and by only a few of us, me included.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Nov 19 15:54:38 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:54:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Those Merry Greeks
Message-ID: <ae.66b12c2e.2ecfb78e@cs.com>

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004111912090002191970&
dt=20041119120900&w=RTR&coview= 
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From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov 19 15:58:39 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Mike Snider)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:58:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411191528490.21120@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
References: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.55.0411191528490.21120@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <4736206.1100897919634.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Friday, November 19, 2004, at 03:43PM, Kerry O'Keefe <jkok at hfa.umass.edu> wrote:

>???
>
>Jane Kerrigan Marie O'Keefe
>
>Without getting in to issues of gender, which I would be happy to do in
>a heartbeat if I woudn't be sure to offend EVERYONE which frankly I don't
>have the energy for, I will simply say that this occasionally useful
>list-serv does make me certain the human animal is simply not designed to
>accommodate peace.  After all is said and done, we don't seem to LIKE it.
>I mean, wonder if these little camps of dreadful theory were pieces of, say,
>land??  WORTH MONEY??? Etc. etc.
>
>Where are the women???
>
>We are writing poems, of course.
>
>
>
from Wendy Cope: 

"Poem Composed in Santa  Barbara": 
  

 The poets talk. They talk a lot. 
 They talk of T. S. Eliot. 
 One is anti. One is pro. 
 How hard they think! How much they know! 
 They're happy. A cicada sings. 
 We women talk of other things.



-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 19 16:14:37 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:14:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The truth about us
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A48C@mail.ripon.edu>

The Truth About Us

The crow struts back and forth
Over the fresh roadkill
While the shade trees bend over him
With a mourner's courtesy.
That's the truth for you!
The rest is imposture,
Bedtime stories, sweet lies
Of sunlight in the eyes,

That made my young neighbor
Take off her shirt in the garden
And stretch her arms to the sky
As if to beguile me further,
While I shuddered and raised
The collar of my overcoat
At the sight of a long white worm
Crawling out of the roses.

--Charles Simic.  Night Picnic. 2001.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 16:25:45 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:25:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Truth about Us
Message-ID: <s19e109a.064@mail.highland.edu>

We were talking about "sameness."  

Now, in Charles Simic, I'd suggest, we have a pretty good example of
how "genre" can get codified into shtick.

Kent


From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 16:28:17 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:28:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Those Merry Greeks
Message-ID: <s19e1132.068@mail.highland.edu>

from the forthcoming (Spring, 2005) Epigramititis: 111 Living American
Poets, a book of brief poems, each devoted to a poet, accompanied by an
image on verso.
*

Eileen Myles

She is a thrilling poet, no question, and this 
will be a very thrilling epigram, so get ready: 
She looks a bit like a tough young male, 
a sculptor's stonecutter, maybe. Countless 
upstanding, normal men, straight and gay, 
were this Athens, third century B.C., would 
desire to fuck her, while pretending she is a boy. 
Yea, for classic beauty doth darkly cut both ways.




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 16:51:35 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:51:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic epigram
Message-ID: <s19e168e.080@mail.highland.edu>

Oh, what the heck, here's the one for Charles Simic.

*

Charles Simic

In this 17th century wood-cut
my Uncle Ratko bought in Calcutta,
the man stuck in the kayak 
has come to cut a
figure like that of Charles Simic.



From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 16:54:22 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:54:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  John Ashbery, "Decoy"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEOPJEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Decoy

We hold these truths to be self-evident:
That ostracism, both political and moral, has
Its place in the twentieth-century scheme of things;
That urban chaos is the problem we have been seeing into 
     and seeing into,
For the factory, deadpanned by its very existence into a
Descending code of values, has moved right across the road 
     from total financial upheaval
And caught regression head-on. The descending scale does 
     not imply
A corresponding deterioration of moral values, punctuated
By acts of corporate vandalism every five years,
Like a bunch of violets pinned to a dress, that knows and 
     ignores its own standing.
There is every reason to rejoice with those self-styled prophets 
     of commercial disaster, those harbingers of gloom,
Over the imminent lateness of the denouement that, 
     advancing slowly, never arrives,
At the same time keeping the door open to a tongue-in-cheek 
     attitude on the part of the perpetrators,
The men who sit down to their vast desks on Monday to begin 
     planning the week's notations, jotting memoranda that take
Invisible form in the air, like flocks of sparrows
Above the city pavements, turning and wheeling aimlessly
But on the average directed by discernible motives.

To sum up: We are fond of plotting itineraries
And our pyramiding memories, alert as dandelion fuzz, dart 
     from one pretext to the next
Seeking in occasions new sources of memories, for memory 
     is profit
Until the day it spreads out all its accumulation, delta-like, 
     on the plain
For that day no good can come of remembering, and the 
     anomalies cancel each other out.
But until then foreshortened memories will keep us going, 
     alive, one to the other.

There was never any excuse for this and perhaps there need be none,
     perhaps,
For kicking out into the morning, on the wide bed,
Waking far apart on the bed, the two of them:
Husband and wife
Man and wife

--John Ashbery

fr. Padgett and Shapiro, *An Anthology of New
York Poets* [New York: Vintage Books, 1970]


Hal         

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/     



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 19 17:22:16 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:22:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Judgment
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A48D@mail.ripon.edu>

The Judgment

    A man dresses up like a judge and stands before a mirror and sentences
himself to loneliness for the rest of his life.

    But, your Honor, you haven't heard my side of it. . .

    You have no side of it; you have been found guilty of impersonating a
judge and standing before a mirror admiring yourself.

    I throw myself on the mercy of the court; I acted only out of
loneliness. . .

    Loneliness is no excuse for violating the law.

    But, your Honor, please, I've been lonely all my life.  Isn't the debt
almost paid?--Not more loneliness!--I demand my sentence be shortened!  I've
already paid for my crime!

    I make no deals with convicted criminals.  If you think you can do
better try another judge.

    But, your Honor. . .

    Clear the court and go to bed!

--Russell Edson

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 17:24:57 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:24:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram
Message-ID: <s19e1e7e.099@mail.highland.edu>

Russell Edson

A man is beating a dead horse in his living room. "I'm going to
beat the shit out of you," he screams, beating it, repeatedly, with an
implement. The years go by. Literary magazines rise and fall. The horse
shrinks down to a mummified chalk. All the furniture in the room goes
out of fashion. "I'm going to beat the shit out of you," screams
the man. "I'm going to beat the fucking living shit out of you, you
motherfucking horse."




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 17:30:29 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:30:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery epigram
Message-ID: <s19e1fca.004@mail.highland.edu>

Halvard posted the Ashbery poem. I forgot to post my Ashbery epigram. 
*

John Ashbery

John Ashbery is a very important poet who drinks gin sine finis.
Strangely, no one has yet written about the convexed bond betwixt 
the wet withouts of his poetry and the dry withins of his martinis.



From tad at opus40.org  Fri Nov 19 17:59:19 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:59:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Truth about Us
References: <s19e109a.064@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <008b01c4ce8b$694a0090$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Not for me - the Simic poem hits home in a way that I want poems to hit 
home.

Tad

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 4:25 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Truth about Us


> We were talking about "sameness."
>
> Now, in Charles Simic, I'd suggest, we have a pretty good example of
> how "genre" can get codified into shtick.
>
> Kent
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Nov 19 18:19:36 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:19:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram
Message-ID: <149.38de4a35.2ecfd988@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 5:26:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Kent.Johnson at highland.edu writes:

> Russell Edson
> 
> A man is beating a dead horse in his living room. "I'm going to
> beat the shit out of you," he screams, beating it, repeatedly, with an
> implement. The years go by. Literary magazines rise and fall. The horse
> shrinks down to a mummified chalk. All the furniture in the room goes
> out of fashion. "I'm going to beat the shit out of you," screams
> the man. "I'm going to beat the fucking living shit out of you, you
> motherfucking horse."
> 

Kent, I see you are breaking/bending the genre
of 'epigram'...epiparagraphicam.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 18:51:00 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:51:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <1d5.2fc61165.2ecf73fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <020801c4ce92$9fe83980$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

This was the first poem I thought of from the canon that is peoplefree.

--Bob
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 11:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems


  In a message dated 11/19/2004 10:57:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes:

    'Between Walls' by William Carlos Williams
    was the poem I was looking for. I found it
    in his ND Selected...

  Between Walls
   

  the back wings

  of the 

   

  hospital where 

  nothing 

   

  will grow lie 

  cinders 

   

  in which shine 

  the broken 

   

  pieces of a green 

  bottle 



  --William Carlos Williams



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Fri Nov 19 18:53:38 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:53:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram
Message-ID: <s19e333d.029@mail.highland.edu>

James said,

>Kent, I see you are breaking/bending the genre of
'epigram'...epiparagraphicam.

Well, yes and no. The epigram, like the ode, as you know, is a fairly
"loose" form. Some of the epigrams in the book are very short, as is the
epigram's tendency; a few bend the tradition and get longer.

This is both a traditional and a very UNtraditional book, I suppose.

Kent



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 18:55:08 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:55:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem without People in't
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119090002.00c0bfb8@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <022701c4ce93$33583670$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

      IN THE FIELDS

it's rainingrainingraining 

Much much much better than David's feeble attempts to make an infrverbal poem.  In fact, I think it's a good poem!  Why do I think it was an accident?  Can you explain it to us, Barry?

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 19:02:08 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:02:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mikhail Bakhtin on Anthony Hecht
References: <da.19145ea4.2eceb105@aol.com><6.0.3.0.2.20041118203231.02d52338@mail.ilstu.edu><00b901c4ce39$a15f6da0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041119103314.02cd2bd0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <023601c4ce94$2df1f5d0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  At 07:13 AM 11/19/2004, Bob Grumman wrote:

    Kent: " . . . it's generally innovative authors who survive the tests of time."
     
    I tend to disagree.  I think MANY OF those who survive the tests of time are given all kinds of undeserved credit for innovation.  Shakespeare didn't innovate, as far as I'm concerned, for instance, but 99% of his critics will tell you about all the wonderful innovations he was responsible for.  (I don't consider creating more rounded characters than anyone else, or the like, a kind of innovation, just a superior standard craftmanship.)  
     
    --Bob

  Bob, you know there's a scholar who lurks on this list name of Alan Golding who wrote a great book about this kind of institutional level denial, it's called FROM OUTLAW TO CLASSIC. A general idea is that innovators get co-opted by folks who say they never really made waves, never shook stuff up. 

  Correction above because I don't believe only non-innovators survive the tests of time, but that those that do are then credited with great innovativeness by stasguards.  I think stasguards almost always claim that there's nothing innovative about what the innovators of their time are doing, but once the innovators are canonized, the stasguards seem to me always to claim they were innovative, after all.  Except a few halfwits who seem to think that nothing significantly new ever has or can happen in poetry.  But I'm also aware of how often a major innovation can seem awfully trivial after the fact.  Complex issue.

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 19:20:44 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:20:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for Today 
References: <200411191742.iAJHg7Tg250362@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <024d01c4ce96$c6e1a770$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for TodayWhen you talk (write) like this Bob, it sounds like you're for widening the range of what
"professors of English" call poetry, but again and again I come back to that basic
question (or argument, if you will) that came up between us a few years back--

How can you truly argue that you want to expand "the poetry continuum," or want others to acknowledge a wider range of poetry beyond "wilberia," when at the same time you have made claims that poems by Amiri Baraka, for instance, should not be called poems?

My centralest aim, Chris, is to define poetry.  Defined the way I want it defined, it would cover a lot more kinds of poetry than (most) professors consider worth consideration, but it would also leave out political propaganda, ads, lineated information like addresses on mail, texts that are semantically null or nearly so, and much else.  Should a person who wants to expand poetry's range of acceptance be barred from junking any previously accepted kind of poetry?

Actually, as I now reflect, when I speak of kinds of poetry, I mean kinds of poetry based on what they are technically, not on subject matter.  So texts like Baraka's will remain in my range so long as they (primarily) do what I (and most people, I believe) would consider art rather than propaganda.

It's now "Wilshberia," by the way. 

--Bob

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From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Nov 19 19:21:18 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:21:18 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0411191528490.21120@shell1.oit.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <087b01c4ce96$e1a10920$b83e1c40@Emily>

I'm mostly woman.  Except for all the hair.


-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kerry O'Keefe
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 12:42 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina

???

Jane Kerrigan Marie O'Keefe

Without getting in to issues of gender, which I would be happy to do in
a heartbeat if I woudn't be sure to offend EVERYONE which frankly I
don't
have the energy for, I will simply say that this occasionally useful
list-serv does make me certain the human animal is simply not designed
to
accommodate peace.  After all is said and done, we don't seem to LIKE
it.
I mean, wonder if these little camps of dreadful theory were pieces of,
say,
land??  WORTH MONEY??? Etc. etc.

Where are the women???

We are writing poems, of course.





On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, Kent Johnson wrote:

> You know, I scrolled up the archives just now and noticed something
> curious. I could be wrong, but since November 3rd, when Maxine
> Chernoff
> sent in a post, the only non-male[*] to have posted to the list
appears
> to have been Anny Ballardini. But Anny is one of the moderators, so
she
> kind of has to.
>
> This is interesting. What gives?
> Kent
>
> [*] I had honestly been under the impression that Rsgwynn was female,
> until learning that the 's' stands for Sam. Unless Sam is short for
> Samantha, which it may well be (my sister-in-law's called Sam), my
point
> holds...
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 19 19:44:40 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:44:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
Message-ID: <200411200024.iAK0Ovx7150502@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

Thanks for this Anny.

----------
>From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
>Date: Fri, Nov 19, 2004, 12:28 PM
>

> No Kent, I do not have to, I post because I want to. I anyhow had your same
> thought.
>
> Women usually have a lot to do. I post because I am a man. I use pictures of
> a woman who still has to be born. Please do not tell anybody. It is a
> special deal I had with some E.T.'s I met down in the corn fields while it
> was raining. They asked me some info which I could easily give, some silly
> things. They wanted to know who was our god, what we believed in, you know,
> kids full of ideals. I sort of tried not to tell the whole truth and
> compromised a little. You know, they actually believed that we believed in
> something. On the other hand when I told them of these Poetry Lists, and
> seen how our world was spinning without hinges they said that we were mad,
> absolutely mad, that we could spend days in front of a screen speaking for
> the sake of poetry ("What is it", one of them asked), that we got angry
> because of a comma, a rhyme a drawing a concept - ah you should have seen
> them laugh. They were nice, after all. So when they asked me what I wanted,
> I told them that I could accept the virtual image of a woman, they did have
> some impressive equipment and in just about a sec they visualized some
> hundreds of possibilities. I picked up this one, I have no idea why, but I
> thought she was sort of less obliging, something in the middle, sort of
> common.
> Then they disappeared. I even thought it was a dream, things that happen to
> you when you are under stress or feverish. But then I started playing with
> her, sending out messages, and ... well it works, it seems she is alive.
>
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
> admirers.
> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kent Johnson" <Kent.Johnson at highland.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:03 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
>
>
>> You know, I scrolled up the archives just now and noticed something
>> curious. I could be wrong, but since November 3rd, when Maxine
>> Chernoff
>> sent in a post, the only non-male[*] to have posted to the list appears
>> to have been Anny Ballardini. But Anny is one of the moderators, so she
>> kind of has to.
>>
>> This is interesting. What gives?
>> Kent
>>
>> [*] I had honestly been under the impression that Rsgwynn was female,
>> until learning that the 's' stands for Sam. Unless Sam is short for
>> Samantha, which it may well be (my sister-in-law's called Sam), my point
>> holds...
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 19:25:12 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:25:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entry for Today 
References: <419DEFC1.728.6EDC39@localhost>
Message-ID: <025501c4ce97$66f4f690$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> ... How can you truly argue that you want to expand
>> "the poetry continuum," or want others to acknowledge a wider range of
>> poetry beyond "wilberia," when at the same time you have made claims
>> that poems by Amiri Baraka, for instance, should not be called poems?
>
> That's easy -- Mr Grumman isn't interested in widening the range of
> poetry, he's interested in leveling all kinds of poetry to the same
> level by labeling them within a pseudo-scientific arrangement so that
> his kind of poetry looks like it's as important as any kind of poetry
> because no kind of poetry is any more important in his system than
> any other. His system of categorization of poetry explicitly excludes
> any reference to quality of work in any sense of "quality" or "work"
> specifically to ensure that his work is included in the system of
> categorization without prejudice.
>
> Marcus

The periodical table makes no qualitative judgements on the elements it 
lists, either.  I will say no more to further posts to this thread by 
Marcus.

--Bob 




From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Nov 19 19:32:30 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:32:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram
In-Reply-To: <s19e1e7e.099@mail.highland.edu>
Message-ID: <088201c4ce98$71b9a840$b83e1c40@Emily>

Kent,

You bastard!  I loved this.  You jerk.

You sanctimonious fishwife.
You superfluous heteronymic masturbator.
You supercilious ant larvae.
You superugly Illinoisan.
You banished-to-Nod brother-raper-killer.
You drunk and exposed father of Ham.
You shrunken-headed feather-dusting pansy.
You culture-robbing bandysnatch.
You cuticle-pushing panhandling boozehound.

Seriously, this is a good and funny epigram, you punk.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 2:25 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram

Russell Edson

A man is beating a dead horse in his living room. "I'm going to
beat the shit out of you," he screams, beating it, repeatedly, with an
implement. The years go by. Literary magazines rise and fall. The horse
shrinks down to a mummified chalk. All the furniture in the room goes
out of fashion. "I'm going to beat the shit out of you," screams
the man. "I'm going to beat the fucking living shit out of you, you
motherfucking horse."


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 19:44:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:44:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] surviving the tests of time
References: <s19dea9f.029@mail.highland.edu>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041119125151.02a8e4a0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <035e01c4ce9a$204d9fa0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>I think it was me he was quoting, Kent. We're interchangeable, as you know. 
>g

It was Gabe I was quoting.  I was thinking about what was said, not who said 
it.  But I do have trouble telling you commies apart.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 19:47:19 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:47:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem without People in't
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119090002.00c0bfb8@incoming.verizon.net>
	<419E4BDB.D6603952@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <037501c4ce9a$7df9e0f0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Barry Spacks wrote:
>>
>>       IN THE FIELDS
>>
>> it's rainingrainingraining
>
> My good man, the prepositions give you away.
>
> Fields
>
> rainingrainingraining
>
> - Jim

Yes, a definite improvement.  My teaching is having a good effect, after 
all, class!

--Bob G. 




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Nov 19 19:48:47 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:48:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <1db.2f63df5a.2ecfee6f@cs.com>

This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 19:53:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:53:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
References: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
	<13444790.1100897574678.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <039101c4ce9b$643c6970$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> MillB, terzarima, and Kerry O'Keefe are, to the best of my knowledge, 
> female, and Sam Gwynn is definitely male.

Possibly our best poster is Wendy.  But, yes, this, and-- my impression 
is--all serious discussion groups on the Internet have many more male 
posters than female.  It's all biological.

--Bob G.


> But the clear majority of the posts have been by men, and by only a few of 
> us, me included.
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 19:59:19 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:59:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <03f201c4ce9c$2aecab70$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

So far I've put two entries up at my blog about your piece on me.  Just got 
a moronic response to them from a semi-literate sycophant of yours but am 
awaiting yours.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 20:02:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:02:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <1db.2f63df5a.2ecfee6f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <041b01c4ce9c$a3ae0f90$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 

I'll bet.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 19 22:07:55 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:07:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
	<03f201c4ce9c$2aecab70$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <048a01c4ceae$21d2c8f0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Phooey, this was intended as a private message to Dan Schneider.

--Bob G.

> So far I've put two entries up at my blog about your piece on me.  Just 
> got a moronic response to them from a semi-literate sycophant of yours but 
> am awaiting yours.
>
> --Bob G.




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Nov 19 22:12:46 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:12:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
In-Reply-To: <048a01c4ceae$21d2c8f0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
	<03f201c4ce9c$2aecab70$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<048a01c4ceae$21d2c8f0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20041119221035.F18559@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Kiplingian slip?

-kpaul

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Phooey, this was intended as a private message to Dan Schneider.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>> So far I've put two entries up at my blog about your piece on me.  Just got 
>> a moronic response to them from a semi-literate sycophant of yours but am 
>> awaiting yours.
>> 
>> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Nov 19 22:30:55 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:30:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 7:03:14 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 
>  
>  I'll bet.
>   
>  --Bob G.
> 
Just passing on the info, Glumman, not evaluating.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Nov 19 22:34:11 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:34:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
Message-ID: <85.1b0e420d.2ed01533@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 6:54:45 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> >MillB, terzarima, and Kerry O'Keefe are, to the best of my knowledge, 
> >female, and Sam Gwynn is definitely male.
> 
> Possibly our best poster is Wendy.  But, yes, this, and-- my impression 
> is--all serious discussion groups on the Internet have many more male 
> posters than female.  It's all biological.
> 
> --Bob G.

I resent being called "definitely male."  This is a social construct based on 
outmoded biological constructs of gender-identity.  It's like saying that 
things fall toward earth because of something called "gravity."
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Nov 19 22:36:53 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:36:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
In-Reply-To: <85.1b0e420d.2ed01533@cs.com>
References: <85.1b0e420d.2ed01533@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20041119223642.H18559@kpaul.spinweb.net>

And, it contains a 'person'...

fwiw.

-kpaul

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/19/2004 6:54:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>>
>> X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>>> MillB, terzarima, and Kerry O'Keefe are, to the best of my knowledge,
>>> female, and Sam Gwynn is definitely male.
>>
>> Possibly our best poster is Wendy.  But, yes, this, and-- my impression
>> is--all serious discussion groups on the Internet have many more male
>> posters than female.  It's all biological.
>>
>> --Bob G.
>
> I resent being called "definitely male."  This is a social construct based on
> outmoded biological constructs of gender-identity.  It's like saying that
> things fall toward earth because of something called "gravity."
>


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Nov 19 23:06:59 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:06:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Imagine: speaking civilly to Our Bob!
In-Reply-To: <200411200016.iAK0GFAl025032@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119200318.03224500@incoming.verizon.net>


>  Can you explain it to us, Barry?
No, alas, beyond my powers...but you're
our Village-Explainer, Bob
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From bardo at optonline.net  Fri Nov 19 22:38:01 2004
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:38:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
References: <1d5.2fc61165.2ecf73fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01f401c4ceb6$93b3cb60$3a95c044@MULDER>

sleeping furiously


who through
the bottle

saw the
grass' show


~ Daniel Zimmerman
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 11:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] People-free poems


  In a message dated 11/19/2004 10:57:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes:

    'Between Walls' by William Carlos Williams
    was the poem I was looking for. I found it
    in his ND Selected...

  Between Walls
   

  the back wings

  of the 

   

  hospital where 

  nothing 

   

  will grow lie 

  cinders 

   

  in which shine 

  the broken 

   

  pieces of a green 

  bottle 



  --William Carlos Williams



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov 19 23:27:48 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:27:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
In-Reply-To: <85.1b0e420d.2ed01533@cs.com>
References: <85.1b0e420d.2ed01533@cs.com>
Message-ID: <88891E9B-3AAC-11D9-955F-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 19, 2004, at 10:34 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/19/2004 6:54:45 PM Central Standard Time, 
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
>
>  X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
>  >MillB, terzarima, and Kerry O'Keefe are, to the best of my knowledge,
>  >female, and Sam Gwynn is definitely male.
>
>  Possibly our best poster is Wendy.? But, yes, this, and-- my 
> impression
>  is--all serious discussion groups on the Internet have many more male
>  posters than female.? It's all biological.
>
>  --Bob G.
>
>
>  I resent being called "definitely male."? This is a social construct 
> based on outmoded biological constructs of gender-identity.? It's like 
> saying that things fall toward earth because of something called 
> "gravity."____________________


Well, I admit I've never seen you naked.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 05:52:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:52:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com><03f201c4ce9c$2aecab70$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><048a01c4ceae$21d2c8f0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<20041119221035.F18559@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <005801c4ceef$034a67d0$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> Kiplingian slip?
>
> -kpaul

I don't mind revealing my ignorance so will ask what a Kiplingian slip is. 
Revealing imperialism?  My sending a hostile post to New-Poetry rather than 
to Dan was what I call a Simple Error.  I have a file on him, and the last 
post from him was at the bottom.  My stupid computer said it was from Dan 
Schneider instead of from New-Poetry as I think it should have--because it 
was a post Schneider made to New-Poetry.  Anyway, I sent my post as a reply 
to it without thinking about it.

Near-proof that I had no ulteriror motive for "accidentally" insulting him 
and his sycophant at New-Poetry is my haveing already made it clear at 
New-Poetry what I think of him, so had no need to do it again.

--Bob G. 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 05:55:51 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:55:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 

I'll bet.
  
--Bob G.


  Just passing on the info, Glumman, not evaluating. 


  I knew that, and thank you for doing so, Sam.  I just couldn't resist the chance to say something disparaging about the NY Times, which I consider an enemy of poetry.  The article will certainly be about poetry, and I don't like the use of the word, "poetry," to mean "good poetry," the way I used it, but I'm weak, at times.

  --Bob G.


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 06:19:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:19:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Imagine: speaking civilly to Our Bob!
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119200318.03224500@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <009a01c4cef2$defa2740$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


 Can you explain it to us, Barry?

No, alas, beyond my powers...but you're
our Village-Explainer, Bob 

Hey, you're speaking more than civilly to me, Barry, you're complimenting me!  Pound was probably the best explainer of poetry in the twentieth century.

Okay, about your poem, as improved by Jim Cervantes, I sincerely consider it an excellent infraverbal poem and plan to do a piece on it at my blog.  It's a poem about fields where it's not just raining, or even "raining and raining and raining," but "rainingrainingraining."  That is, the rain is so constant there aren't even the kind of pauses in it that spaces and "ands' would suggest.  

If this was all there was to the poem, I wouldn't think much of it, but it has one detail more that I saw at once but suspect you did not, Barry.  Be honest and tell us.  I notice such details because of long experience with this kind of poetry, and often miss such details nonetheless.  But, of course, it doesn't take much sensitivity to notice it--the least experienced reader might see it at once.  It helps to be on the outlook for such a detail, though, as I try to be.

It is the word, "graining," twice repeated.  So the poem is saying that the continuing raining merges with a continuing graining, or growth.  We start with a raining, and it becomes in one step a graining, a graining that will continue and make Iowa proud and happy.

Trivial?  Yes, to people without whatever it is that I and many others I know have that allows us to get enjoyment from such small accidents as the fact that "graining" is inside "rainingraining."  Not to mention the micro-detail of the repeated instances of "in."  But a yow to those of us who do.

As I reflected on how hard it would be to convince someone who doesn't automatically get a yow out of such things that people who do aren't pretending to in order to seem superior in some way but really do get such a charge, I thought of rhymes.  I love them, and I think just about everyone else does, too.  But why?  A rhyme is nothing but two repeated sounds.  What could be more trivial?  Consider how hard it would be to convince someone who can hear a rhyme but can't appreciate it that you really do get something of value from hearing it.

--Bob G.
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 20 06:40:56 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 04:40:56 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
References: <85.1b0e420d.2ed01533@cs.com>
Message-ID: <419F2D48.86B4C19B@earthlink.net>



Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11/19/2004 6:54:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
> 
> >
> > X-INFO: INVALID TO LINE
> > >MillB, terzarima, and Kerry O'Keefe are, to the best of my
> > knowledge,
> > >female, and Sam Gwynn is definitely male.
> >
> > Possibly our best poster is Wendy.  But, yes, this, and-- my
> > impression
> > is--all serious discussion groups on the Internet have many more
> > male
> > posters than female.  It's all biological.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> 
> I resent being called "definitely male."  This is a social construct
> based on outmoded biological constructs of gender-identity.  It's like
> saying that things fall toward earth because of something called
> "gravity."

Exactly.  We all know that happens when things are simply heavy.

- Jim


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Nov 20 07:03:48 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:03:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Imagine: speaking civilly to Our Bob!
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119200318.03224500@incoming.verizon.net>
	<009a01c4cef2$defa2740$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006f01c4cef8$fe7c8080$7aed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

and you even forgot _grain_

the symbol of the union of Demetra and Zeus, a single grain to commemorate contemplation - the evolving of the seasons; grain as the symbol of life, stolen by the old Dogon blacksmith from the sky to offer it to the earth.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 12:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Imagine: speaking civilly to Our Bob!



   Can you explain it to us, Barry?

  No, alas, beyond my powers...but you're
  our Village-Explainer, Bob 

  Hey, you're speaking more than civilly to me, Barry, you're complimenting me!  Pound was probably the best explainer of poetry in the twentieth century.

  Okay, about your poem, as improved by Jim Cervantes, I sincerely consider it an excellent infraverbal poem and plan to do a piece on it at my blog.  It's a poem about fields where it's not just raining, or even "raining and raining and raining," but "rainingrainingraining."  That is, the rain is so constant there aren't even the kind of pauses in it that spaces and "ands' would suggest.  

  If this was all there was to the poem, I wouldn't think much of it, but it has one detail more that I saw at once but suspect you did not, Barry.  Be honest and tell us.  I notice such details because of long experience with this kind of poetry, and often miss such details nonetheless.  But, of course, it doesn't take much sensitivity to notice it--the least experienced reader might see it at once.  It helps to be on the outlook for such a detail, though, as I try to be.

  It is the word, "graining," twice repeated.  So the poem is saying that the continuing raining merges with a continuing graining, or growth.  We start with a raining, and it becomes in one step a graining, a graining that will continue and make Iowa proud and happy.

  Trivial?  Yes, to people without whatever it is that I and many others I know have that allows us to get enjoyment from such small accidents as the fact that "graining" is inside "rainingraining."  Not to mention the micro-detail of the repeated instances of "in."  But a yow to those of us who do.

  As I reflected on how hard it would be to convince someone who doesn't automatically get a yow out of such things that people who do aren't pretending to in order to seem superior in some way but really do get such a charge, I thought of rhymes.  I love them, and I think just about everyone else does, too.  But why?  A rhyme is nothing but two repeated sounds.  What could be more trivial?  Consider how hard it would be to convince someone who can hear a rhyme but can't appreciate it that you really do get something of value from hearing it.

  --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 20 07:31:34 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:31:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram
References: <088201c4ce98$71b9a840$b83e1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <419F3927.AECF775@earthlink.net>

It *was* dead-on, wasn't it?  Right on target.  Bull'seye.  Hit the
mark.  Now you two boys behave and go outside and play.

- Jim

Anthony Robinson wrote:
> 
> Kent,
> 
> You bastard!  I loved this.  You jerk.
> 
> You sanctimonious fishwife.
> You superfluous heteronymic masturbator.
> You supercilious ant larvae.
> You superugly Illinoisan.
> You banished-to-Nod brother-raper-killer.
> You drunk and exposed father of Ham.
> You shrunken-headed feather-dusting pansy.
> You culture-robbing bandysnatch.
> You cuticle-pushing panhandling boozehound.
> 
> Seriously, this is a good and funny epigram, you punk.
> 
> Tony
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Kent Johnson
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 2:25 PM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram
> 
> Russell Edson
> 
> A man is beating a dead horse in his living room. "I'm going to
> beat the shit out of you," he screams, beating it, repeatedly, with an
> implement. The years go by. Literary magazines rise and fall. The horse
> shrinks down to a mummified chalk. All the furniture in the room goes
> out of fashion. "I'm going to beat the shit out of you," screams
> the man. "I'm going to beat the fucking living shit out of you, you
> motherfucking horse."
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 08:57:08 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:57:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Imagine: speaking civilly to Our Bob!
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041119200318.03224500@incoming.verizon.net><009a01c4cef2$defa2740$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<006f01c4cef8$fe7c8080$7aed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00d801c4cf08$d3c29810$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


and you even forgot _grain_

Well, I sorta thought that was implicit in "graining," Anny.  But you're right to say the archetypal background is also important, and I didn't mention that.

--Bob


  the symbol of the union of Demetra and Zeus, a single grain to commemorate contemplation - the evolving of the seasons; grain as the symbol of life, stolen by the old Dogon blacksmith from the sky to offer it to the earth.

  Anny Ballardini
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Nov 20 10:37:45 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:37:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson epigram
In-Reply-To: <088201c4ce98$71b9a840$b83e1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <BDC4C0E9.D050%grahamd@ripon.edu>

What the hell, here's my Edson parody:


THE MAGIC MONKEY

A monkey was growing grandmothers in a flowerpot.

But that's for flowers, not grandmothers, shrieked the monkey's
fathermonkey.

Don't you understand, roared the younger monkey, that what I am cultivating
are dream grandmothers?

Then why don't you use dream flowerpots? screamed the fathermonkey.



> Russell Edson
> 
> A man is beating a dead horse in his living room. "I'm going to
> beat the shit out of you," he screams, beating it, repeatedly, with an
> implement. The years go by. Literary magazines rise and fall. The horse
> shrinks down to a mummified chalk. All the furniture in the room goes
> out of fashion. "I'm going to beat the shit out of you," screams
> the man. "I'm going to beat the fucking living shit out of you, you
> motherfucking horse."
> 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 20 10:37:04 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:37:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <b9.4b4a873b.2ed0bea0@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2004 7:49:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> 
> This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 
> 

Is this the start of something new? Or have they run 
issues like this before? 
Finnegan
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Nov 20 10:43:22 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:43:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com>
	<006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

What are the qualifications for being an enemy of poetry?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 5:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTBR


  This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 

  I'll bet.
    
  --Bob G.


    Just passing on the info, Glumman, not evaluating. 
     

    I knew that, and thank you for doing so, Sam.  I just couldn't resist the chance to say something disparaging about the NY Times, which I consider an enemy of poetry.  The article will certainly be about poetry, and I don't like the use of the word, "poetry," to mean "good poetry," the way I used it, but I'm weak, at times. 

    --Bob G. 





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Nov 20 11:14:09 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:14:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <104.54f68833.2ed0c751@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/20/2004 9:38:04 AM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> >> 
>> This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 
>> 
> 
> Is this the start of something new? Or have they run 
> issues like this before? 
> Finnegan
> 
Once in a blue moon.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 20 11:16:16 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:16:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Schneider 's sychophant?
Message-ID: <a9.66facd9a.2ed0c7d0@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/20/2004 5:52:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Near-proof that I had no ulteriror motive for "accidentally" insulting him 
> and his sycophant at New-Poetry is my haveing already made it clear at 
> New-Poetry what I think of him, so had no need to do it again.
> 

Bob, I don't remember anyone praising/sucking up to Dan Schneider 
on this list. He's got a right to strong opinions...but he undermines
his arguments with fits of "self-praise" and his rather unbecoming
habit of judging poets by their looks (female poets, primarily, form
the few pieces I've read). He and his website remind me of a beered-up
version of William Logan in a bar room. Safely ensconced in the small
smoky world he's created, he's all brag and blather,  leer and sneer. 
Because he's so obnoxious people gawk...but he takes that
as a sign of real attention. Sober him up by pushing him out into 
cold night air, and he's suddenly just a sullen and sad man, angry 
at a world that won't recognize his self-evident genius.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 11:55:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:55:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com><006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <015e01c4cf21$c3d62c00$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

What are the qualifications for being an enemy of poetry?

Oh, you just have to ignore MY poetry, Mole.

--Bob
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Nov 20 11:58:32 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:58:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com><006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00f701c4cf22$2b2d18f0$760c9942@Helen>

Never reading any

Being able to memorize irrelevant facts

Having friends/connections in high places i.e. editorial positions 

Attending  Harvard

Graduating from Harvard

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 10:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTBR


  What are the qualifications for being an enemy of poetry?
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 5:55 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTBR


    This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 

    I'll bet.
      
    --Bob G.


      Just passing on the info, Glumman, not evaluating. 

      I knew that, and thank you for doing so, Sam.  I just couldn't resist the chance to say something disparaging about the NY Times, which I consider an enemy of poetry.  The article will certainly be about poetry, and I don't like the use of the word, "poetry," to mean "good poetry," the way I used it, but I'm weak, at times. 

      --Bob G. 





----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 12:04:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:04:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Schneider 's sychophant?
References: <a9.66facd9a.2ed0c7d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <017301c4cf22$f2975c20$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Near-proof that I had no ulteriror motive for "accidentally" insulting him 
and his sycophant at New-Poetry is my haveing already made it clear at 
New-Poetry what I think of him, so had no need to do it again.



  Bob, I don't remember anyone praising/sucking up to Dan Schneider 
  on this list. He's got a right to strong opinions...but he undermines
  his arguments with fits of "self-praise" and his rather unbecoming
  habit of judging poets by their looks (female poets, primarily, form
  the few pieces I've read). He and his website remind me of a beered-up
  version of William Logan in a bar room. Safely ensconced in the small
  smoky world he's created, he's all brag and blather,  leer and sneer. 
  Because he's so obnoxious people gawk...but he takes that
  as a sign of real attention. Sober him up by pushing him out into 
  cold night air, and he's suddenly just a sullen and sad man, angry 
  at a world that won't recognize his self-evident genius.
  Finnegan 
  I tend to agree with you on Schneider, James--although I do think Logan a better critic than Schneider and a much better poet.  My post was sent in error to New-Poetry, as I said in a follow-up.  I've written some replies at my blog to Schneider's rant at his website against me and the person I consider a sycophant of his replied to them.  I've put what the sycopahnt said up at my blog under the specific entry he replied to, and replied briefly to it there.  Anyone curious about it can go to: http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00292.html

  --Bob G.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Nov 20 12:20:42 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:20:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] In the heart of the heart of Wilberia
In-Reply-To: <012901c4ce43$d52c7dd0$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BDC4D90A.D071%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/19/04 8:26 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

 I wrote one day at New-Poetry and again in an e.mail to Dan Schneider,
and/or here, about "Wilberia," or the small portion of the poetry continuum
from Wilbur to Ashbery that professors of English know (and consider
themselves to have a wide range of sensitivity for appreciating).
========



"Wilberia" is a very funny bit, really, nearly Onion-like in its brilliance.
It describes the terrain of contemporary American poetry pretty much the
same way as that old *New Yorker* cartoon map describes the actual
country--you know, the one where the whole midsection of the land is empty?
Frisco on the distant horizon, and no need to see any difference between
Atlanta and Boise.

An old friend of mine once remarked that there were people who never read
any poetry that appeared above 14th Street.  More power to them, I guess;
but I wouldn't trust their maps.
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 20 12:38:37 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:38:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
In-Reply-To: <104.54f68833.2ed0c751@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAJJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


>>>This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue. 

>> Is this the start of something new? Or have they run 
>> issues like this before? 
>> Finnegan


>Once in a blue moon. 

So often?

Hal         "I have nothing to say and I am saying it
               and that is poetry."       
                                --John Cage

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/



From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Nov 20 12:49:10 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:49:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAJJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000701c4cf29$3e1d4190$760c9942@Helen>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" 
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 12:38 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] NYTBR


>
>>>>This Sunday's Times Book Review is a poetry issue.
>
>>> Is this the start of something new? Or have they run
>>> issues like this before?
>>> Finnegan
>
>
>>Once in a blue moon.
>
> So often?
>

Once the magazine did an article awarding prizes for poets:
like    best hair - Jorie Graham  with cartoonish drawings - wow.




> Hal         "I have nothing to say and I am saying it
>               and that is poetry."
>                                --John Cage
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> 




From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Nov 20 12:59:20 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:59:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] dream monkeys
Message-ID: <s19f31b7.071@mail.highland.edu>

That's good, David.

Speaking of monkeys, I was just reading in Stephen Greenblatt's Will in
the World about the very popular bear-baiting spectacles (which were
multi-animal in nature). One favorite game was to tie a terrified ape to
the back of a terrified horse and set large, specially bred dogs upon
them. The monkey would scream and flail about, while the dogs hung at
the horse, shaking and pulling, trying to bring the horse down to get at
the monkey. This was all very funny and pleasurable to the very same
people--plebians and nobles alike--who crowded into The Globe to see A
Midsummer Night's Dream, written by the Earl of Oxford, Edward de Vere,
under the cover of "William Shakespeare."

Did you know, too, that there was a multi-level shopping mall on London
Bridge, where one could buy fine and expensive products, in full view of
heads on poles at either end of the bridge.

The world hasn't changed much, I guess. And poets are still weeping
monkeys, tied to the back of frightened, death-cound horse.

Kent


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 13:05:22 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 13:05:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] In the heart of the heart of Wilberia
References: <BDC4D90A.D071%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01a901c4cf2b$81207d70$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In the heart of the heart of Wilberia

  on 11/19/04 8:26 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:


    I wrote one day at New-Poetry and again in an e.mail to Dan Schneider, and/or here, about "Wilberia," or the small portion of the poetry continuum from Wilbur to Ashbery that professors of English know (and consider themselves to have a wide range of sensitivity for appreciating).  


  I misrepresented myself: in my entry I Said, "most professors of English."

  "Wilberia" is a very funny bit, really, nearly Onion-like in its brilliance.  It describes the terrain of contemporary American poetry pretty much the same way as that old *New Yorker* cartoon map describes the actual country--you know, the one where the whole midsection of the land is empty?  Frisco on the distant horizon, and no need to see any difference between Atlanta and Boise.

  An old friend of mine once remarked that there were people who never read any poetry that appeared above 14th Street.  More power to them, I guess; but I wouldn't trust their maps.

  Thanks for what appears to be praise, David.  But I go on to say I've changed the named of Wilberia to Wilshberia.  Maybe I shouldn't have?  But "Wilberia" may not suggest "Ashbery" sufficiently.

  --Bob G.
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sat Nov 20 13:11:17 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:11:17 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "He's Just Our Bob"
In-Reply-To: <200411201532.iAKFWIAl028640@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041120100646.00c09f08@incoming.verizon.net>

At 10:32 AM 11/20/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>one detail more that I saw at once but suspect you did not, Barry.  Be 
>honest and tell us.  I notice such details

Bob, what's not to love, you deep-seer, you?
You almost got it all
(thanks for your delving, Ms. Anny)

engulfingly amazed,

Barry
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From Kent.Johnson at highland.edu  Sat Nov 20 13:27:45 2004
From: Kent.Johnson at highland.edu (Kent Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:27:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] adieu
Message-ID: <s19f385c.074@mail.highland.edu>

That should have been "death-bound horse," by the way. 

Figures I'd have a typo right at the end of my final post to the List.
Have enjoyed being here, but must bid goodbye for a time. 

It's a nice group. Best to all.

Kent


From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 20 14:10:00 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:10:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <1f1.2efab314.2ed0f088@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/20/2004 11:58:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hruggier at localnet.com writes:

> Attending  Harvard
> 
Opps...There goes Creeley.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 20 14:45:11 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:45:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] People-free poems
Message-ID: <be.1c41ecd1.2ed0f8c7@aol.com>

Silence

The way the word sinks
into the deep snow of the page.

The deer lying dead
in the clearing,
its head and antlers 
transparent.
                The black
seed in its brain
parachuting toward earth.


       --Gregory Orr, 
       _Burning the Empty Nests_
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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sat Nov 20 14:48:29 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:48:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
In-Reply-To: <039101c4ce9b$643c6970$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <s19dfd50.014@mail.highland.edu>
	<13444790.1100897574678.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
	<039101c4ce9b$643c6970$3ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <26EF033D-3B2D-11D9-A526-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Nov 19, 2004, at 7:53 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Possibly our best poster is Wendy.

Very kind of you, Bob.  If I posted more often, I'd probably change 
your mind about that.

Wendy, who's been too busy to keep up with the volume here lately

Wendy Battin              wjbat at conncoll.edu
http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html

Curb your god.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 20 14:52:13 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:52:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: 32 Poems Contest--Win a Prize 
Message-ID: <76.469dab58.2ed0fa6d@aol.com>

From:? ? Deborah Ager <dager3 at YAHOO.COM>
Date:? ? Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:41:25 -0500
From:? ? Deborah Ager <dager3 at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: 32 Poems Contest--Win a Prize

Greetings all!

32 Poems is having a contest complete with prizes. You can learn more about
it at:

http://32poems.blogspot.com/

Many thanks,

Deborah, Publisher
32 Poems Magazine
http://www.32poems.com




Greetings all!

32 Poems is having a contest complete with prizes. You can learn more about
it at:

http://32poems.blogspot.com/

Many thanks,

Deborah, Publisher
32 Poems Magazine
http://www.32poems.com


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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sat Nov 20 14:56:56 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:56:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
In-Reply-To: <00f701c4cf22$2b2d18f0$760c9942@Helen>
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com><006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00f701c4cf22$2b2d18f0$760c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <5514A52E-3B2E-11D9-A526-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Do we have to fulfill all five requirements to be Enemies of Poetry, 
Helen, or can we all qualify on the strength of one?

Wendy

On Nov 20, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> Never reading any
> ?
> Being able to memorize irrelevant facts
> ?
> Having friends/connections in high places i.e. editorial positions
>  ?
> Attending ?Harvard
> ?
> Graduating from Harvard



Wendy Battin        wjbat at conncoll.edu
http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html

Yet he hath ever but slenderly known himself.

--Shakespeare
(by Regan, of Lear)




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Nov 20 15:02:53 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:02:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com><006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ><00f701c4cf22$2b2d18f0$760c9942@Helen>
	<5514A52E-3B2E-11D9-A526-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <01dd01c4cf3b$ec5a7db0$7aed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I maybe had to add in my previous post that nor Helen or Wendy are women.

And good to have you around, I've sort of been missing both, anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTBR


> Do we have to fulfill all five requirements to be Enemies of Poetry,
> Helen, or can we all qualify on the strength of one?
>
> Wendy
>
> On Nov 20, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > Never reading any
> >
> > Being able to memorize irrelevant facts
> >
> > Having friends/connections in high places i.e. editorial positions
> >
> > Attending Harvard
> >
> > Graduating from Harvard
>
>
>
> Wendy Battin        wjbat at conncoll.edu
> http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html
>
> Yet he hath ever but slenderly known himself.
>
> --Shakespeare
> (by Regan, of Lear)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From elemenope at icubed.com  Sat Nov 20 02:54:30 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:54:30 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Imagine: speaking civilly to Our Bob!
In-Reply-To: <200411201532.iAKFWIAm028640@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200411201532.iAKFWIAm028640@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100303bdc4a330985e@[204.215.201.76]>

Excellent.  Apposite.

Aram Saroyan - - a brilliant celebrity poet who Professor Spacks used 
to encounter at the Grolier Bookshop in Cambridge, Ma., back in 1973 
- - was one of the progenitors of "Poesie Concret."  Compare and 
contrast the following poem which appeared, first, in Switzerland in 
the famous journal, _Art and Literature_.

-----------------------------------------------

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

Crickets

-----------------------------------------------



Richard Dillon
ELEMENOPE Productions


>
>
>  Can you explain it to us, Barry?
>
>No, alas, beyond my powers...but you're
>our Village-Explainer, Bob
>
>Hey, you're speaking more than civilly to me, Barry, you're 
>complimenting me!  Pound was probably the best explainer of poetry 
>in the twentieth century.
>
>Okay, about your poem, as improved by Jim Cervantes, I sincerely 
>consider it an excellent infraverbal poem and plan to do a piece on 
>it at my blog.  It's a poem about fields where it's not just 
>raining, or even "raining and raining and raining," but 
>"rainingrainingraining."  That is, the rain is so constant there 
>aren't even the kind of pauses in it that spaces and "ands' would 
>suggest. 
>
>If this was all there was to the poem, I wouldn't think much of it, 
>but it has one detail more that I saw at once but suspect you did 
>not, Barry.  Be honest and tell us.  I notice such details because 
>of long experience with this kind of poetry, and often miss such 
>details nonetheless.  But, of course, it doesn't take much 
>sensitivity to notice it--the least experienced reader might see it 
>at once.  It helps to be on the outlook for such a detail, though, 
>as I try to be.
>
>It is the word, "graining," twice repeated.  So the poem is saying 
>that the continuing raining merges with a continuing graining, or 
>growth.  We start with a raining, and it becomes in one step a 
>graining, a graining that will continue and make Iowa proud and 
>happy.
>
>Trivial?  Yes, to people without whatever it is that I and many 
>others I know have that allows us to get enjoyment from such small 
>accidents as the fact that "graining" is inside "rainingraining." 
>Not to mention the micro-detail of the repeated instances of "in." 
>But a yow to those of us who do.
>
>As I reflected on how hard it would be to convince someone who 
>doesn't automatically get a yow out of such things that people who 
>do aren't pretending to in order to seem superior in some way but 
>really do get such a charge, I thought of rhymes.  I love them, and 
>I think just about everyone else does, too.  But why?  A rhyme is 
>nothing but two repeated sounds.  What could be more trivial? 
>Consider how hard it would be to convince someone who can hear a 
>rhyme but can't appreciate it that you really do get something of 
>value from hearing it.

-- 


From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 20 16:26:25 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:26:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nueva Poesia masculina
Message-ID: <83.1b15eecf.2ed11081@aol.com>


> You know, I scrolled up the archives just now and noticed something
> >>curious. I could be wrong, but since November 3rd, when Maxine
> >>Chernoff
> >>sent in a post, the only non-male[*] to have posted to the list appears
> >>to have been Anny Ballardini. But Anny is one of the moderators, so she
> >>kind of has to.
> >>
> >>This is interesting. What gives?

I feel I should say few words about this fact. I wish we had more
women in the mix. I know that WOMPO was formed, in part, to
create a friendlier, more well-lit place for women. Annie Finch
who I beleive founded WOMPO was a part of CAP-L at one time. 
(This list was created sometime after CAP-L evaporated into the e-ther.) 
I'd like to believe this is not Y-CHROMOSOMEPO...but I don't think 
one can argue that the discussions (banter, etc) are dominated by 
men. I'm sure at times the 'banter' appears to be testosterone-fueled
rough-housing. The only thing I feel I should do as manager is
to quell the real, mean-spirited fighting, the ear biting and the like.
I do value the few women who have stuck with this list and have
participated, however occasionally.
There's a bit too much truth in the saw: Boys will be boys.
(Remembering my own penchant for a good hard helmet butt 
on ths sidelines before the kick-off.)
Finnegan

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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Sat Nov 20 17:22:07 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:22:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] latest SPOON RIVER POETRY REVIEW now available
In-Reply-To: <01dd01c4cf3b$ec5a7db0$7aed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com>
	<006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00f701c4cf22$2b2d18f0$760c9942@Helen>
	<5514A52E-3B2E-11D9-A526-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
	<01dd01c4cf3b$ec5a7db0$7aed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041120154445.02d42be0@mail.ilstu.edu>

The Summer/Fall 2004 issue of SRPR is now available. Contributors copies 
are being mailed as I write.

In this issue:

Luis Miguel Aguilar, Joe Amato, Anny Ballardini, Gaston Baquero, Douglas 
Barbour, Barbara Barg, James Bertolino, Daniel Borzutsky, Anita Boyle, 
Brigitte Byrd, James Cervantes, Jennifer Chapis, Kris Christensen, Ewa 
Chrusciel, Julie Cipolla, Brian Clements, Brenda Coultas, Joel Craig, 
Catherine Daly, Alan DeNiro, Kristin Dykstra, Gerald England, Juan Carlos 
Flores, Georges Godeau, Janet Goldberg, Arielle Greenberg, Matthew 
Guenette, Tim Hunt, Max Jacob, Judith E. Johnson, Kent Johnson, Doug Jones, 
Pierre Joris, Jeffrey Jullich, Jennifer L. Knox, John Latta, Rachel Loden, 
Kathleen McGookey, Joyelle McSweeney, Haki R. Madhubuti (FEATURED 
INTERVIEW), Michael Magee, Jonathan Mayhew, K. Silem Mohammad, Sheila E. 
Murphy, Brooke Nelson, Daniel Nester, John O'Leary, Karl Parker, Jack 
Pendarvis, Jennifer M. Pierson, Anthony Robinson, Mary Ruefle, Helen 
Ruggieri, Standard Schaefer, Kathleen Snodgrass, Alan Sondheim, Chuck 
Stebelton, Chris Stroffolino, Joel Barraquiel Tan, Tony Tost, David 
Trinidad, Julia Tsuchiya-Mayhew, Mark Weiss, W. Aaron Wilson

Cover art by Brian Collier. Guest edited by Gabriel Gudding.

Single issue price: $10
Annual subscription price (for individuals): $15
Annual subscription price (for institutions): $18

To buy, write to Tara Reeser, Director of Publications, Dept of English -- 
4240, Illinois State Univ, Normal IL  61790





From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Sat Nov 20 17:26:30 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:26:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] latest SPOON RIVER POETRY REVIEW now available
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041120154445.02d42be0@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com>
	<006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00f701c4cf22$2b2d18f0$760c9942@Helen>
	<5514A52E-3B2E-11D9-A526-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
	<01dd01c4cf3b$ec5a7db0$7aed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041120154445.02d42be0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041120162448.02b56b50@mail.ilstu.edu>



My apologies: Bill Morgan's name somehow fell out of that list. My 
apologies. Here is the full list:

Luis Miguel Aguilar, Joe Amato, Anny Ballardini, Gaston Baquero, Douglas 
Barbour, Barbara Barg, James Bertolino, Daniel Borzutsky, Anita Boyle, 
Brigitte Byrd, James Cervantes, Jennifer Chapis, Kris Christensen, Ewa 
Chrusciel, Julie Cipolla, Brian Clements, Brenda Coultas, Joel Craig, 
Catherine Daly, Alan DeNiro, Kristin Dykstra, Gerald England, Juan Carlos 
Flores, Georges Godeau, Janet Goldberg, Arielle Greenberg, Matthew 
Guenette, Tim Hunt, Max Jacob, Judith E. Johnson, Kent Johnson, Doug Jones, 
Pierre Joris, Jeffrey Jullich, Jennifer L. Knox, John Latta, Rachel Loden, 
Kathleen McGookey, Joyelle McSweeney, Haki R. Madhubuti (FEATURED 
INTERVIEW), Michael Magee, Jonathan Mayhew, K. Silem Mohammad, Bill Morgan, 
Sheila E. Murphy, Brooke Nelson, Daniel Nester, John O'Leary, Karl Parker, 
Jack Pendarvis, Jennifer M. Pierson, Anthony Robinson, Mary Ruefle, Helen 
Ruggieri, Standard Schaefer, Kathleen Snodgrass, Alan Sondheim, Chuck 
Stebelton, Chris Stroffolino, Joel Barraquiel Tan, Tony Tost, David 
Trinidad, Julia Tsuchiya-Mayhew, Mark Weiss, W. Aaron Wilson 



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 20 21:19:17 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:19:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Imagine: speaking civilly to Our Bob!
References: <200411201532.iAKFWIAm028640@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<a05100303bdc4a330985e@[204.215.201.76]>
Message-ID: <027c01c4cf70$8147a720$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Excellent.  Apposite.
>
> Aram Saroyan - - a brilliant celebrity poet who Professor Spacks used to 
> encounter at the Grolier Bookshop in Cambridge, Ma., back in 1973 - - was 
> one of the progenitors of "Poesie Concret."  Compare and contrast the 
> following poem which appeared, first, in Switzerland in the famous 
> journal, _Art and Literature_.


Thanks for the kind words, Richard.  The following poem is not one of my 
favorite Saroyans, but it's been published all over the place, and I do 
admire it--particularly considering when it was done.  Like "field," it 
breaks a reader out of standard subject-verb-object expectations to halt him 
in a single repeated word.  And that word becomes all there is--nothing but 
crickets in the Saroyan, nothing but rain in the Spacks; for the right 
reader, the Saroyan poem will put him into an evening; for the right reader, 
the Spacks will put him into . . . visions of Ceres!  The Spacks is more 
advanced, I think, because it disconceals a second very meaningful word. 
But it has a title that some would claim is superfluous, but I'm in favor 
of--because, while the Saroyan poem defines a time and place (some anywhere 
out-of-doors), the Spacks defines a process which a specified place renders 
more real, for me.

You know, it seems to me Saroyan's poem would be better if its first word 
was "cricket."  Or is that too cute?  He's done more than one version of 
this poem, by the way.  Here's one I like better:

crickets
crickess
cricksss
cricssss
crisssss
crssssss
csssssss
ssssssss
ssssssts
sssssets
sssskets
sssckets
ssickets
srickets
crickets

Here's one other poem by him in its entirety: "eatc."

--Bob G.

>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> Crickets
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Richard Dillon
> ELEMENOPE Productions
>
>
>>
>>
>>  Can you explain it to us, Barry?
>>
>>No, alas, beyond my powers...but you're
>>our Village-Explainer, Bob
>>
>>Hey, you're speaking more than civilly to me, Barry, you're complimenting 
>>me!  Pound was probably the best explainer of poetry in the twentieth 
>>century.
>>
>>Okay, about your poem, as improved by Jim Cervantes, I sincerely consider 
>>it an excellent infraverbal poem and plan to do a piece on it at my blog. 
>>It's a poem about fields where it's not just raining, or even "raining and 
>>raining and raining," but "rainingrainingraining."  That is, the rain is 
>>so constant there aren't even the kind of pauses in it that spaces and 
>>"ands' would suggest.
>>If this was all there was to the poem, I wouldn't think much of it, but it 
>>has one detail more that I saw at once but suspect you did not, Barry.  Be 
>>honest and tell us.  I notice such details because of long experience with 
>>this kind of poetry, and often miss such details nonetheless.  But, of 
>>course, it doesn't take much sensitivity to notice it--the least 
>>experienced reader might see it at once.  It helps to be on the outlook 
>>for such a detail, though, as I try to be.
>>
>>It is the word, "graining," twice repeated.  So the poem is saying that 
>>the continuing raining merges with a continuing graining, or growth.  We 
>>start with a raining, and it becomes in one step a graining, a graining 
>>that will continue and make Iowa proud and happy.
>>
>>Trivial?  Yes, to people without whatever it is that I and many others I 
>>know have that allows us to get enjoyment from such small accidents as the 
>>fact that "graining" is inside "rainingraining." Not to mention the 
>>micro-detail of the repeated instances of "in." But a yow to those of us 
>>who do.
>>
>>As I reflected on how hard it would be to convince someone who doesn't 
>>automatically get a yow out of such things that people who do aren't 
>>pretending to in order to seem superior in some way but really do get such 
>>a charge, I thought of rhymes.  I love them, and I think just about 
>>everyone else does, too.  But why?  A rhyme is nothing but two repeated 
>>sounds.  What could be more trivial? Consider how hard it would be to 
>>convince someone who can hear a rhyme but can't appreciate it that you 
>>really do get something of value from hearing it.
>
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov 21 10:55:22 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 09:55:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Favorite
Message-ID: <BDC6168A.D0DC%grahamd@ripon.edu>

There are some pretty interesting things in today's *New York Times Book
Review* feature on poetry.  One is the "symposium," in which they asked a
number of poets to name the books that have "meant most" to them in the past
quarter century.

Here is part of John Ashbery's response:


"I return to Tate's books more often perhaps than to any others when I want
to be reminded afresh of the possibilities of poetry. It's hard to choose a
single volume. I'd have picked his ''Selected Poems'' if that were allowed,
but RECKONER (Wesleyan University, 1986) is as good a place as any to start,
prime middle-period Tate. He chose to preface it with a passage from Wallace
Stevens's ''Man on the Dump,'' which ends: ''Where was it one first heard of
the truth? The the.'' The line is a notorious one (my spell-check won't
accept ''the the,'' and neither have a lot of readers) yet it is essential.
Its ''where'' is the wellspring of poetry, and, yes, there is a ''there''
there, an all-encompassing one.

Tate, who lives in Amherst, Mass., channels Emily Dickinson in one poem from
''Reckoner'': '' 'Tears are my angels now,' she said to me / around 4 a.m.
'But are they interested / in Cedar Rapids?' I asked. 'I'm not qualified /
to say,' was her sorry reply'' -- suggesting both that the reply was
inadequate and that Emily was sorry about that. I think she was being unduly
modest: she is qualified and she does ''say,'' over and over, regardless of
the setting, which is always here. And Tate, though he seems to be kidding
the boonies (sorry, Cedar Rapids; I've been to you and know you've got
culture), is similarly our great poet of local habitations and names, even
if they don't show up on every map."


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov 21 11:16:49 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:16:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's Music
Message-ID: <BDC61B91.D0DF%grahamd@ripon.edu>

>From Terrence Rafferty's review of Philip Levine's *Breath*:

"Maybe the least remarked distinction of Levine's poetry, especially the
poetry of the last 15 years or so, is the seductive subtlety of its music:
the way his lines, longer than they were in his early work, just seem to
flow down the page, moving from image to image, from the beginning of an
idea to its end, with the inevitability and liquid clarity of a solo by
Lester Young. (Young is mentioned by name in this book, as are Clifford
Brown and Miles Davis and Bud Powell and Charlie Parker -- who, in fact,
provides the occasion for the poet's meditation on his own breath.)"

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/books/review/21RAFFERTY.html

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Nov 21 11:18:15 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:18:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <1f1.2efab314.2ed0f088@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007401c4cfe5$b4ded7a0$250c9942@Helen>

Bly too
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 2:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NYTBR


  In a message dated 11/20/2004 11:58:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes:


    Attending  Harvard


  Opps...There goes Creeley.
  Finnegan 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Sun Nov 21 11:21:28 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:21:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <159.44a1a0d1.2ed21a88@aol.com>

and Donald Hall.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Nov 21 11:35:20 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:35:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <75.38c15fc2.2ed21dc8@cs.com>

And Rich, if you count Radcliffe.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Nov 21 11:35:41 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:35:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
Message-ID: <1d9.30510f24.2ed21ddd@cs.com>

Not to mention Eliot.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov 21 11:45:03 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:45:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Home of the bean and the cod
In-Reply-To: <1d9.30510f24.2ed21ddd@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BDC6222F.D0E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/21/04 10:35 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

Not to mention Eliot.
_______________________________________________

Could someone remind me why we're listing poets who attended Harvard?

I mean, from Donald Hall to Ashbery and O'Hara, the list is long.  In the
case of Bly, Hall, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Rich at Radcliffe, they also
overlapped in their attendance.  So what?

Maybe we could coin a phrase, "Hallberya," to account for this stunning
fact. . . .

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 11:47:06 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:47:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <1d9.30510f24.2ed21ddd@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c4cfe9$bc759a90$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Not to mention Eliot. 

RS Gwynne

I suspect that Helen was talking about contemporary enemies of poetry when she listed graduation from Harvard as one of their qualities .  There's no question but that Harvard was where a great many of the best dead American poets came from--Stevens and Cummings are two more.  I suspect one can still graduate from Harvard and become a superior poet, but Harvard itself is an enemy of poetry because of its resistance to anything new in poetry, and its latest graduates seem mostly to resist the new, as well.

--Bob G.

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov 21 11:47:41 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:47:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
Message-ID: <BDC622CD.D0E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Another tidbit from the NYTBR's poetry feature.  An excerpt from Dana
Gioia's *Disappearing Ink*:

"Consider the following question: What has been the most influential and
unexpected event in American poetry during the past twenty years? Language
Poetry? New Formalism? Critical Theory? Multiculturalism? New Narrative?
Identity Poetics? These have all been significant trends, but none have been
confined largely to the academic subculture. Oddly, the most important new
trend won't be found in what Language Poet Charles Bernstein calls "official
verse culture"-the small but respectable literary network of books,
journals, conferences, and university writing programs. Instead, it will be
discovered in the general culture in poetic works widely covered in the mass
media. 

Without a doubt the most surprising and significant development in recent
American poetry has been the wide-scale and unexpected reemergence of
popular poetry-namely rap, cowboy poetry, poetry slams, and certain overtly
accessible types of what was once a defiantly avant-garde genre, performance
poetry. These new forms of popular verse have seemingly come out of nowhere
to become significant forces in American culture. Rap especially has become
ubiquitous in our society-not only filling the concert halls and radio
programming but also heard and seen in films, television, and live theater.
Although far less commercial, the other forms have also shown enormous
vitality. And all these new poetic forms have thrived without the support of
the university or the literary establishment.
"
--Dana Gioia
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/books/chapters/1121-1st-gioia.html?8bl
----------------------

There's also a fairly scathing review of this book in the same issue, by A.
O. Scott:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/books/review/21SCOTTL.html


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Thom424 at aol.com  Sun Nov 21 11:47:32 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:47:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Home of the bean and the cod
Message-ID: <86.1babe6e3.2ed220a4@aol.com>

and Kenneth Koch and George Plimpton.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 12:03:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:03:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <1d9.30510f24.2ed21ddd@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01c4cfeb$f6776320$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

What I find most interesting about the NYTBR issue is the extent to which Wilshberia has been infiltrated by the language poets.  I don't think any language poetry book is reviewed but they get mentioned, and Lyn Hejinian's editorship of the Best Poetry of 2004, or whatever it's miscalled, is discussed--in a review, by the way, that equates "experimental poetry" entirely with a few kinds of language poetry.

Also lit-politically interesting is what the issue reveals of the changing poetry establishment: Wiman, editor of the moneyed Poetry, and Gioia, Mr. NEA, both getting to have their say.  They have even less of interest to say about poetry than Bloom, who is here, too, but they sure do get a lot of bandwidth.

Sapphire gets to tell us which book or books of poetry she admires, but no language poet is, that I noticed.  As for visual poets, they are--so far as my quick survey goes--completely ignored.

I'll probably buy a copy of the issue so I can read it at leisure while subbing the way I read The New Criterion, and keep up with the slower streams of poetry, which still do interest me.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 12:11:01 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:11:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Home of the bean and the cod
References: <BDC6222F.D0E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00e101c4cfed$13f41aa0$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Home of the bean and the codNot to mention Eliot. 
_______________________________________________


  Could someone remind me why we're listing poets who attended Harvard?

  I mean, from Donald Hall to Ashbery and O'Hara, the list is long.  In the case of Bly, Hall, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Rich at Radcliffe, they also overlapped in their attendance.  So what?  

  Maybe we could coin a phrase, "Hallberya," to account for this stunning fact. . . .

  What the number of Harvard grads who review or are reviewed in the Times indicates (along with copious other pieces of evidence), David, is that the Times has no intelligent criteria for recognizing poets, so instead uses the reputation of the schools they graduated from, among other like things, to judge them by.  It goes by credentials, not accomplishments.  Of course, this only annoys those of us who are not stasguards.

  --Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Nov 21 12:14:35 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:14:35 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Home of the bean and the cod
Message-ID: <1b8.6bab8d6.2ed226fb@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/21/2004 10:48:52 AM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> on 11/21/04 10:35 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
> >> Not to mention Eliot. 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
> Could someone remind me why we're listing poets who attended Harvard?
> 
> I mean, from Donald Hall to Ashbery and O'Hara, the list is long.  In the 
> case of Bly, Hall, Ashbery, O'Hara, and Rich at Radcliffe, they also overlapped 
> in their attendance.  So what?  
> 
> Maybe we could coin a phrase, "Hallberya," to account for this stunning 
> fact. . . .
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
In response to someone's "haters of poetry" post, listing Harvard attendance 
as a prerequisite.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov 21 12:47:09 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:47:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
Message-ID: <e4.5cd385f2.2ed22e9d@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/21/2004 12:15:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> In response to someone's "haters of poetry" post, listing Harvard 
> attendance as a prerequisite. 
> 

I think it was Helen & I think it was tongue in cheek.

Harvard has Jorie Graham. A young man down the street just
started at Harvard last year and got into one of her classes
in his first year. I haven't had time to put him thru a Q&A or 
get a copy of her syllabus, but I doubt she's teaching 
dead-center Norton.

Princeton's program is headed up by Paul Muldoon.
Brown has CD Wright, I believe. Lucie Brock-Broido
and Paul Violi are at Columbia. So it would be hard to 
claim that the Ivies are stuck in a time-warp impervious
to the modes and influences of contemporary poetry.

The biggest enemy of poetry on college campuses
would have to be Directors and Deans who are trying
to eliminate Liberal Arts requirements in favor of 
fast-track, career-oriented curricula. A friend of mine
at Springfield College in Springfield MA is faced with
and fighting those kinds of changes. The school is
known for its sports-related occupational training.
She said to me that her experience is that the kids in
her poetry & lit classes are hungry for things that open 
them to worlds outside their discipline. Of course,
they're hampered by poor high school training, and the
general dislike of papers and reading, etc. They'd
prefer it if she could just plug them into the 
poetry-direct-to-the-soul console, which surely she
is hiding under her desk.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov 21 13:23:28 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:23:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award
Message-ID: <159.44a333da.2ed23720@aol.com>

Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award for poetry?
Door in the Mountain: New & Collected Poems 1965 - 2003.

http://www.jeanvalentine.com

--

Door in the Mountain

Never ran this hard through the valley
never ate so many stars

I was carrying a dead deer
tied on to my neck and shoulders

deer legs hanging in front of me
heavy on my chest

People are not wanting
to let me in

Door in the mountain
let me in

-- Jean Valentine
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 13:32:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:32:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <e4.5cd385f2.2ed22e9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013301c4cff8$70d65430$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


    In response to someone's "haters of poetry" post, listing Harvard attendance as a prerequisite. 



  I think it was Helen & I think it was tongue in cheek.

  I'm pretty sure she was tongue-in-cheek and also half-serious.  

  Harvard has Jorie Graham. A young man down the street just
  started at Harvard last year and got into one of her classes
  in his first year. I haven't had time to put him thru a Q&A or 
  get a copy of her syllabus, but I doubt she's teaching 
  dead-center Norton.

  I doubt that she's teaching any poetry that uses techniques not in wide use fifty or more years ago, James, as--yes--I nauseatingly keep repeating.  She's in Wilshberia, doing nothing Eliot or Ashbery didn't do.


  Princeton's program is headed up by Paul Muldoon.
  Brown has CD Wright, I believe. Lucie Brock-Broido
  and Paul Violi are at Columbia. So it would be hard to 
  claim that the Ivies are stuck in a time-warp impervious
  to the modes and influences of contemporary poetry.

  Why?  What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems that the Times is reviewing?  


  The biggest enemy of poetry on college campuses
  would have to be Directors and Deans who are trying
  to eliminate Liberal Arts requirements in favor of 
  fast-track, career-oriented curricula. A friend of mine
  at Springfield College in Springfield MA is faced with
  and fighting those kinds of changes. The school is
  known for its sports-related occupational training.
  She said to me that her experience is that the kids in
  her poetry & lit classes are hungry for things that open 
  them to worlds outside their discipline. Of course,
  they're hampered by poor high school training, and the
  general dislike of papers and reading, etc. They'd
  prefer it if she could just plug them into the 
  poetry-direct-to-the-soul console, which surely she
  is hiding under her desk.
  Finnegan

  I empathize, but am optimistic--for all kinds of poetry--that the computer will solve a lot of these problems.  I recently got PowerPoint, which makes presentations easy, and am quite excited about it.  I plan to work out half-hour programs whose aim is to make poetry, all kinds, fun.  I may not succeed--or, if I do, I still may not be able to get the results into wide circulation.  But I can't believe that no one will succeed in making presentations on poetry that will excite kids and adults about poetry, and do it without needing institutional support or anything more, really, than a standard computer and some not very expensive software.

  To me, to get back to enemies of poetry, the worst enemies are not educational administrators, but the people in poetry itself like Bloom and Vendler, who narrow it to Wilshberia, and the stasguards who follow their lead like the Times and Knopf.

  --Bob G.
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 21 13:40:58 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:40:58 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
References: <BDC622CD.D0E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <41A0E13A.7C45B975@earthlink.net>

And what's with Jorie Graham's ". . . coming from a European
background"?  Does she mean that European background from long ago that
many share?  Or did she just get back from a month at some European
retreat? Or . . . ?

- Jim 

David Graham wrote:
> 
> Another tidbit from the NYTBR's poetry feature.  An excerpt from Dana
> Gioia's *Disappearing Ink*:?



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 21 13:43:25 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:43:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <1d9.30510f24.2ed21ddd@cs.com>
	<00b101c4cfe9$bc759a90$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <41A0E1CC.659DE9D@earthlink.net>



> Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> Not to mention Eliot.
> 
> RS Gwynne
> 
> I suspect that Helen was talking about contemporary enemies of poetry
> when she listed graduation from Harvard as one of their qualities .
> There's no question but that Harvard was where a great many of the
> best dead American poets came from--Stevens and Cummings are two
> more.  I suspect one can still graduate from Harvard and become a
> superior poet, but Harvard itself is an enemy of poetry because of its
> resistance to anything new in poetry, and its latest graduates
> seem mostly to resist the new, as well.

Of all people, you should know, Bob, that WE either come from Harvard or
from Iowa, while the unwashed masses come from every other place.  We're
the Blue poets.

- Jim


From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Nov 21 13:54:49 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:54:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <e4.5cd385f2.2ed22e9d@aol.com>
	<013301c4cff8$70d65430$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006701c4cffb$949fd460$850c9942@Helen>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 1:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art



      In response to someone's "haters of poetry" post, listing Harvard attendance as a prerequisite. 

    I was semi serious - 
    as always

    I think it was Helen & I think it was tongue in cheek.

    I'm pretty sure she was tongue-in-cheek and also half-serious.  

    Harvard has Jorie Graham. A young man down the street just
    started at Harvard last year and got into one of her classes
    in his first year. I haven't had time to put him thru a Q&A or 
    get a copy of her syllabus, but I doubt she's teaching 
    dead-center Norton.

    I doubt that she's teaching any poetry that uses techniques not in wide use fifty or more years ago, James, as--yes--I nauseatingly keep repeating.  She's in Wilshberia, doing nothing Eliot or Ashbery didn't do.


    Princeton's program is headed up by Paul Muldoon.
    Brown has CD Wright, I believe. Lucie Brock-Broido
    and Paul Violi are at Columbia. So it would be hard to 
    claim that the Ivies are stuck in a time-warp impervious
    to the modes and influences of contemporary poetry.

    Why?  What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems that the Times is reviewing?  


    The biggest enemy of poetry on college campuses
    would have to be Directors and Deans who are trying
    to eliminate Liberal Arts requirements in favor of 
    fast-track, career-oriented curricula. A friend of mine
    at Springfield College in Springfield MA is faced with
    and fighting those kinds of changes. The school is
    known for its sports-related occupational training.
    She said to me that her experience is that the kids in
    her poetry & lit classes are hungry for things that open 
    them to worlds outside their discipline. Of course,
    they're hampered by poor high school training, and the
    general dislike of papers and reading, etc. They'd
    prefer it if she could just plug them into the 
    poetry-direct-to-the-soul console, which surely she
    is hiding under her desk.
    Finnegan

    I empathize, but am optimistic--for all kinds of poetry--that the computer will solve a lot of these problems.  I recently got PowerPoint, which makes presentations easy, and am quite excited about it.  I plan to work out half-hour programs whose aim is to make poetry, all kinds, fun.  I may not succeed--or, if I do, I still may not be able to get the results into wide circulation.  But I can't believe that no one will succeed in making presentations on poetry that will excite kids and adults about poetry, and do it without needing institutional support or anything more, really, than a standard computer and some not very expensive software.

    To me, to get back to enemies of poetry, the worst enemies are not educational administrators, but the people in poetry itself like Bloom and Vendler, who narrow it to Wilshberia, and the stasguards who follow their lead like the Times and Knopf.

    --Bob G.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 21 13:49:59 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 11:49:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award
References: <159.44a333da.2ed23720@aol.com>
Message-ID: <41A0E356.3154A78F@earthlink.net>

William Stafford could have written that one.

- Jim

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award for poetry??|
> Door in the Mountain: New & Collected Poems 1965 - 2003.
> 
> http://www.jeanvalentine.com
> 
> --
> 
> Door in the Mountain
> 
> Never ran this hard through the valley
> never ate so many stars
> 
> I was carrying a dead deer
> tied on to my neck and shoulders
> 
> deer legs hanging in front of me
> heavy on my chest
> 
> People are not wanting
> to let me in
> 
> Door in the mountain
> let me in
> 
> -- Jean Valentine
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov 21 14:03:40 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:03:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award 
Message-ID: <7f.51a0201c.2ed2408c@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/21/2004 1:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> William Stafford could have written that one.
> 
> 

Jim, 
I like a lot of Stafford...so I don't take that as 
a slight of Valentine's piece. But I'm not so sure
Stafford could/would write such as....there's 
something wild-at-heart in that poem. Surreal
but emotionally real. Anyway its in a vein 
I don't associate with Stafford. More Blyish
perhaps.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 14:09:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:09:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award
References: <159.44a333da.2ed23720@aol.com> <41A0E356.3154A78F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <018701c4cffd$925d9aa0$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> William Stafford could have written that one.
 
> - Jim

Ha, exactly my first reaction.  But it seems dopier than Stafford's poems.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 14:14:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:14:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTBR
References: <1d9.30510f24.2ed21ddd@cs.com><00b101c4cfe9$bc759a90$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<41A0E1CC.659DE9D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <019401c4cffe$5da2ce10$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Of all people, you should know, Bob, that WE either come from Harvard or
> from Iowa, while the unwashed masses come from every other place.  We're
> the Blue poets.
> 
> - Jim

I don't follow your logic, Jim, but I have that trouble with the logic of a lot of poets.  How does it follow that I should know leftwing Stasguards all come from either Iowa or Harvard because I say Harvard is an enemy of poetry and believe the mainest-stream kind of poem being constructed today is something I call the Iowa Plainlyric (I think)?  

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov 21 14:16:54 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:16:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why is modern poetry so difficult?   
Message-ID: <12a.50e04bc3.2ed243a6@aol.com>

John Tranter
Why is modern poetry so difficult? 

http://www.austlit.com/jt/prose/2004-mp.html
    
?But poetry didn?t used to be difficult,? my friend said, appealing to the 
widespread folk belief in a golden age when capitalism was kind to poor people, 
and poetry was easy to understand. I gave a hollow laugh, and reminded her of 
Auden?s 1939 epigram ?Epitaph on a Tyrant?. It begins ?Perfection, of a 
kind, was what he was after / And the poetry he invented was easy to understand...
?

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Nov 21 14:23:29 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:23:29 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
References: <BDC622CD.D0E9%grahamd@ripon.edu> <41A0E13A.7C45B975@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <02cb01c4cfff$94fb8c20$32a83452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi Jim, from the Academy of American Poets
http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?45442B7C000C030C

Jorie Graham was born in New York City in 1950 and spent her youth in Italy.
She attended New York University as an undergraduate and received an MFA
from the University of Iowa. She is the author of numerous collections of
poetry, including Never (HarperCollins, 2002); Swarm (2000); The Errancy
(1997); The Dream of the Unified Field: Selected Poems 1974-1994, which won
the 1996 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry; Materialism (1993); Region of Unlikeness
(1991); The End of Beauty (1987); Erosion (1983); and Hybrids of Plants and
of Ghosts (1980). She has also edited two anthologies, Earth Took of Earth:
100 Great Poems of the English Language (1996) and The Best American Poetry
1990. Her many honors include a John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur
Fellowship and the Morton Dauwen Zabel Award from The American Academy and
Institute of Arts and Letters. She has taught at the University of Iowa
Writers' Workshop and is currently the Boylston Professor of Rhetoric and
Oratory at Harvard University. She served as a Chancellor of The Academy of
American Poets from 1997 to 2003.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism


> And what's with Jorie Graham's ". . . coming from a European
> background"?  Does she mean that European background from long ago that
> many share?  Or did she just get back from a month at some European
> retreat? Or . . . ?
>
> - Jim
>
> David Graham wrote:
> >
> > Another tidbit from the NYTBR's poetry feature.  An excerpt from Dana
> > Gioia's *Disappearing Ink*:?
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov 21 15:26:07 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:26:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Valentine for Stafford
In-Reply-To: <7f.51a0201c.2ed2408c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BDC655FF.D114%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/21/04 1:03 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/21/2004 1:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

William Stafford could have written that one.



Jim, 
I like a lot of Stafford...so I don't take that as
a slight of Valentine's piece. But I'm not so sure
Stafford could/would write such as....there's
something wild-at-heart in that poem. Surreal
but emotionally real. Anyway its in a vein
I don't associate with Stafford. More Blyish
perhaps.
Finnegan

_______________________________________________

I agree.  Stafford's often metaphysical and at his weakest can tend toward
the airily vague or portentous, but he's never surreal, I don't think.

And I'd like to note that Stafford has a number of modes.  He's most famous
for poems like "Travelling Through the Dark" but has many other facets.


Accountability


Cold nights outside the taverns in Wyoming
pickups and big semis lounge idling, letting their
haunches twitch now and then in gusts of powder snow,
their owners inside for hours, forgetting as well
as they can the miles, the circling plains, the still town
that connects to nothing but cold and space and a few
stray ribbons of pavement, icy guides to nothing
but bigger towns and other taverns that glitter and wait:
Denver, Cheyenne. 

Hibernating in the library of the school on the hill
a few pieces by Thomas Aquinas or Saint Teresa
and the fragmentary explorations of people like Alfred
North Whitehead crouch and wait amid research folders
on energy and military recruitment posters glimpsed
by the hard stars. The school bus by the door, a yellow
mound, clangs open and shut as the wind finds a loose
door and worries it all night, letting the hollow
students count off and break up and blow away
over the frozen ground.

--William Stafford 
===============================

Fiction

We would get a map of our farm as big
as our farm, and unroll the heavy paper
over the fields, with encouraging things
written here and there--"tomatoes," "corn,"
"creek."  Then in the morning we would
stick our heads through and sing, "Barn, be cleaned."
"Plow, turn over the south forty!"
But while our words were going out
on the paper, here would come rumpling
along under the map Old Barney,
just on the ground--he couldn't even
read--going out to slop the hogs.

    --William Stafford
=================================

Aunt Mabel


This town is haunted by some good deed
that reappears like a country cousin, or truth
when language falters these days trying to lie,
because Aunt Mabel, an old lady gone now, would
accost even strangers to give bright flowers
away, quick as a striking snake. It's deeds like this
have weakened me, shaken by intermittent trust,
stricken with friendliness.

Our Senator talked like war, and Aunt Mabel
said, "He's a brilliant man,
but we didn't elect him that much."

Everyone's resolve weakens toward evening
or in a flash when a face melds--a stranger's, even--
reminded for an instant between menace and fear:
There are Aunt Mabels all over the world,
   or their graves in the rain.

--William Stafford
==============================





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From martinstannard at ntlworld.com  Sun Nov 21 15:39:13 2004
From: martinstannard at ntlworld.com (Martin Stannard)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:39:13 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Exultations and Difficulties
Message-ID: <004801c4d00a$2ab9b340$0fa80252@SPARKLE100>

Recently on ?Exultations and Difficulties? ? Martin Stannard?s sweet little Blog-Thing:

 

  a.. Being Alive: Yes, I Know It?s Christmas
  b.. James Schuyler via Charles North (New York)
  c.. The Beta Band
  d.. My Coral Is Afloat
  e.. Too Old For This: A poem by Paul Sutton
 

forthcoming:- reviews of books by 

 

  a.. Tim Cumming
  b.. Mandy Coe
  c.. Katerina Anghelaki-Rooke
  d.. Sue Dymoke
  e.. Kate Foley
  f.. Keith Jafrate
  g.. Roddie Lumsden.
 

and some new poems by some people

 

and other sundry stuff

 

Go now! Go to! www.exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com

 





Martin Stannard

Home Page: www.martinstannard.co.uk
Blog (here will be found musings, poems by various great poets, and occasional reviews. It's a blog-thing....) http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/

"Some days are blighted, some are blessed."
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 21 15:58:26 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:58:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award
References: <7f.51a0201c.2ed2408c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <41A10172.16819A3@earthlink.net>

I suspect twas the ending of the Valentine poem that made me say that. 
It struck me as a bit arch.  Though I like arched doorways.

- Jim

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11/21/2004 1:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
> 
> > William Stafford could have written that one.
> >
> 
> Jim,
> I like a lot of Stafford...so I don't take that as
> a slight of Valentine's piece. But I'm not so sure
> Stafford could/would write such as....there's
> something wild-at-heart in that poem. Surreal
> but emotionally real. Anyway its in a vein
> I don't associate with Stafford. More Blyish
> perhaps.
> Finnegan
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 21 16:01:38 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 14:01:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
References: <BDC622CD.D0E9%grahamd@ripon.edu> <41A0E13A.7C45B975@earthlink.net>
	<02cb01c4cfff$94fb8c20$32a83452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <41A10232.FC9B70B6@earthlink.net>

Yes, I was aware of *that* history.  I wasn't aware of the one Sam Gwyn
sent me - haven't seen it posted here so I'll ask for Sam's forgiveness
and post what he sent backchannel supposedly):

> Jorie Graham is the kind of poet whose life is nothing less than cinematic. She was born in Rome in 1950 and grew up there.
> Her father, Bill Pepper, was the head of the Newsweek Rome bureau; her mother, Beverly, is a sculptor famous for her
> totemic structures. As a child, Jorie hid inside old churches; she helped out on Antonioni films as a teenager. She went to
> French schools, and to the Sorbonne, but was expelled for taking part in student protests. So she transferred to New York
> University, where she studied film with Haig Manoogian and Martin Scorsese.

So, she's entitled to the "European background."

- Jim


Anny Ballardini wrote:
> 
> Hi Jim, from the Academy of American Poets
> http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?45442B7C000C030C
> 
> Jorie Graham was born in New York City in 1950 and spent her youth in Italy.
> She attended New York University as an undergraduate and received an MFA
> from the University of Iowa. She is the author of numerous collections of
> poetry, including Never (HarperCollins, 2002); Swarm (2000); The Errancy
> (1997); The Dream of the Unified Field: Selected Poems 1974-1994, which won
> the 1996 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry; Materialism (1993); Region of Unlikeness
> (1991); The End of Beauty (1987); Erosion (1983); and Hybrids of Plants and
> of Ghosts (1980). She has also edited two anthologies, Earth Took of Earth:
> 100 Great Poems of the English Language (1996) and The Best American Poetry
> 1990. Her many honors include a John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur
> Fellowship and the Morton Dauwen Zabel Award from The American Academy and
> Institute of Arts and Letters. She has taught at the University of Iowa
> Writers' Workshop and is currently the Boylston Professor of Rhetoric and
> Oratory at Harvard University. She served as a Chancellor of The Academy of
> American Poets from 1997 to 2003.
> 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
> admirers.
> Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp; Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
> 
> > And what's with Jorie Graham's ". . . coming from a European
> > background"?  Does she mean that European background from long ago that
> > many share?  Or did she just get back from a month at some European
> > retreat? Or . . . ?
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> > David Graham wrote:
> > >
> > > Another tidbit from the NYTBR's poetry feature.  An excerpt from Dana
> > > Gioia's *Disappearing Ink*:?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 21 16:00:09 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:00:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jean Valentine winner of the National Book Award
In-Reply-To: <41A10172.16819A3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEDBJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    I suspect twas the ending of the Valentine poem that made me say that. 
{    It struck me as a bit arch.  Though I like arched doorways.
{    
{    - Jim

Not to mention arched backs (or was it eyebrows?).

Hal



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Nov 21 16:20:30 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:20:30 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
References: <BDC622CD.D0E9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
	<41A0E13A.7C45B975@earthlink.net><02cb01c4cfff$94fb8c20$32a83452@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<41A10232.FC9B70B6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003d01c4d00f$ee7fb450$a62bb750@yourpk9x5fuc06>


Ah yes, Jim, I also knew that one. I read it somewhere. It seems all so easy
when you read "histories" of others, doesn't it? I bet I would have fought
against my father by never picking up a pen, despised sculpture because of
my mother, joined the monkeys in The Amazon Forest, and lived there until
the end of my days. But she instead, was able to keep it all up. I can't but
admire people like her.

From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism


> Yes, I was aware of *that* history.  I wasn't aware of the one Sam Gwyn
> sent me - haven't seen it posted here so I'll ask for Sam's forgiveness
> and post what he sent backchannel supposedly):
>
> > Jorie Graham is the kind of poet whose life is nothing less than
cinematic. She was born in Rome in 1950 and grew up there.
> > Her father, Bill Pepper, was the head of the Newsweek Rome bureau; her
mother, Beverly, is a sculptor famous for her
> > totemic structures. As a child, Jorie hid inside old churches; she
helped out on Antonioni films as a teenager. She went to
> > French schools, and to the Sorbonne, but was expelled for taking part in
student protests. So she transferred to New York
> > University, where she studied film with Haig Manoogian and Martin
Scorsese.
>
> So, she's entitled to the "European background."
>
> - Jim
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 21 16:03:50 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:03:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
In-Reply-To: <003d01c4d00f$ee7fb450$a62bb750@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEDCJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I think we want to hear more of this (your parents), Anny. 

My reason for despising sculpture is that sculptures are so
damned three-dimensional.

Hal
  
{    Ah yes, Jim, I also knew that one. I read it somewhere. It seems all so easy
{    when you read "histories" of others, doesn't it? I bet I would have fought
{    against my father by never picking up a pen, despised sculpture because of
{    my mother, joined the monkeys in The Amazon Forest, and lived there until
{    the end of my days. But she instead, was able to keep it all up. I can't but
{    admire people like her.
{    
{    From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
{    Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
{    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
{    
{    
{    > Yes, I was aware of *that* history.  I wasn't aware of the one Sam Gwyn
{    > sent me - haven't seen it posted here so I'll ask for Sam's forgiveness
{    > and post what he sent backchannel supposedly):
{    >
{    > > Jorie Graham is the kind of poet whose life is nothing less than
{    cinematic. She was born in Rome in 1950 and grew up there.
{    > > Her father, Bill Pepper, was the head of the Newsweek Rome bureau; her
{    mother, Beverly, is a sculptor famous for her
{    > > totemic structures. As a child, Jorie hid inside old churches; she
{    helped out on Antonioni films as a teenager. She went to
{    > > French schools, and to the Sorbonne, but was expelled for taking part in
{    student protests. So she transferred to New York
{    > > University, where she studied film with Haig Manoogian and Martin
{    Scorsese.
{    >
{    > So, she's entitled to the "European background."
{    >
{    > - Jim
{    >
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Nov 21 16:42:13 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:42:13 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEDCJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004d01c4d012$f6a76210$a62bb750@yourpk9x5fuc06>

It goes without saying Hal, that my father would have liked a nice daughter
? la Rousseau with healthy puffy cheeks who gets up before dawn to feed (or
milk, what goes first?) the cows, makes butter and cheese, cleans up the
house, and then starts cooking. When we were younger he brought us to see
the Austrian chalets with the pretty orchards all around (my sister and me
in the backseats fighting or laughing), and on our last meeting, a couple of
fortnights ago, he praised this (quite beautiful I have to say) lady who
leads a similar life. Every time he comes up with something new,
My mother would have liked a religious daughter, all prayers and sacrifice,
obedient, submissive, in peace with the world and with God.
Amen.

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 10:03 PM


> I think we want to hear more of this (your parents), Anny.
>
> My reason for despising sculpture is that sculptures are so
> damned three-dimensional.
>
> Hal
>
> {    Ah yes, Jim, I also knew that one. I read it somewhere. It seems all
so easy
> {    when you read "histories" of others, doesn't it? I bet I would have
fought
> {    against my father by never picking up a pen, despised sculpture
because of
> {    my mother, joined the monkeys in The Amazon Forest, and lived there
until
> {    the end of my days. But she instead, was able to keep it all up. I
can't but
> {    admire people like her.
> {
> {    From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> {    Cc: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
> {    <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> {    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
> {
> {
> {    > Yes, I was aware of *that* history.  I wasn't aware of the one Sam
Gwyn
> {    > sent me - haven't seen it posted here so I'll ask for Sam's
forgiveness
> {    > and post what he sent backchannel supposedly):
> {    >
> {    > > Jorie Graham is the kind of poet whose life is nothing less than
> {    cinematic. She was born in Rome in 1950 and grew up there.
> {    > > Her father, Bill Pepper, was the head of the Newsweek Rome
bureau; her
> {    mother, Beverly, is a sculptor famous for her
> {    > > totemic structures. As a child, Jorie hid inside old churches;
she
> {    helped out on Antonioni films as a teenager. She went to
> {    > > French schools, and to the Sorbonne, but was expelled for taking
part in
> {    student protests. So she transferred to New York
> {    > > University, where she studied film with Haig Manoogian and Martin
> {    Scorsese.
> {    >
> {    > So, she's entitled to the "European background."
> {    >
> {    > - Jim
> {    >
> {
> {
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Nov 21 17:34:09 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:34:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in the NYRB
Message-ID: <75DCD81F-3C0D-11D9-878D-000393C29586@mac.com>

Here's the poem Kent Johnson asked about. I know he's left -- but I 
find the poem moving and far from laughable, though it's certainly not 
dignified in the penultimate stanza's references to surgery. Surgery 
isn't  dignified for the patient. There are a few things I wouldn't 
have the nerve to do in one of my poems -- bringing in the plains of 
Troy lets him range over enough time to include the troubadours and 
other poets mentioned, of whom only Hardy lived into Hecht's lifetime, 
but it can look a lot like a rationalized reach to rhyme for "boy." I 
don't know whether that speaks to my lack of skill and nerve or to a 
genuine problem in the poem. A smaller and less doubtful problem. it 
seems to me, is the filler "larcenous" in the last stanza -- what other 
kind of trade would a "scythe-wielding thief" have?

GAR, by the way, is an acronym for Grand Army of the Republic, an 
organization for Union verterans of the American Civil War. I had to 
look it up -- "Troy" had me thinking "Great Argive Raid?" It had its 
last assembly in the 1950s, and its last member died in the 1960s. That 
the Civil War is a mythic event in American history and named that way 
in the poem  perhaps helps prepare for those aforementioned plains.


DECLENSIONS


		And every fair from fair sometimes declines


I can recall how yearly
The ranks of the GAR
Detectably thinned out
To an odd handful, merely;
A bugler, perhaps a scout
 From that distant, mythic war.

In time their canes and crutches
Were discarded for wheelchairs
Pushed by some friendly boy;
Gone were the stalwart marches,
Their military airs
Lost on the plains of Troy.

And my own comrades in arms--
Those of them that survive--
Must be few and far between;
The best of them--strong and lean
And bemedalled--if still alive
Wil have suffered life's random harms.

The ranks of poet's, too,
Ronsard and Leopardi,
Foregather beside the Styx,
There to receive their due:
At eighty-eight went Hardy,
Keats not yet twenty-six.

Worst, those whose minds decay
Into a lingering stupor
Beyond the reach of art
And the common light of day:
Like H?lderin, Kit Smart,
And "buried-above-ground" Cowper.

May God preserve my wits,
Science do what it may
With scissors and thread and paste
To maintain the remaining bits
And faculties of today
That have not yet gone to wastge.

Eyesight and hearing fade:
Yet I do not greatly care
If the grim, scythe-wiielding thief
Pursue his larcenous trade,
Thoiugh qanguished by the grief
Two that I love must bear.




From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Nov 21 17:43:41 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:43:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia's Populism
In-Reply-To: <004d01c4d012$f6a76210$a62bb750@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEDCJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
	<004d01c4d012$f6a76210$a62bb750@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <CAB7FECC-3C0E-11D9-878D-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Nov 21, 2004, at 4:42 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

>  who gets up before dawn to feed (or
> milk, what goes first?

Milk first, and last, at the end of the day. Most of the year cows feed 
themsleves,  or at least they did before factory farming.

And I, for one, am glad your parents got the daughter they did get.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 17:55:45 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:55:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in the NYRB
References: <75DCD81F-3C0D-11D9-878D-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <023a01c4d01d$3d101670$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Sounds like Yeats to me, which I mean as a compliment.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in the NYRB


> Here's the poem Kent Johnson asked about. I know he's left -- but I find 
> the poem moving and far from laughable, though it's certainly not 
> dignified in the penultimate stanza's references to surgery. Surgery isn't 
> dignified for the patient. There are a few things I wouldn't have the 
> nerve to do in one of my poems -- bringing in the plains of Troy lets him 
> range over enough time to include the troubadours and other poets 
> mentioned, of whom only Hardy lived into Hecht's lifetime, but it can look 
> a lot like a rationalized reach to rhyme for "boy." I don't know whether 
> that speaks to my lack of skill and nerve or to a genuine problem in the 
> poem. A smaller and less doubtful problem. it seems to me, is the filler 
> "larcenous" in the last stanza -- what other kind of trade would a 
> "scythe-wielding thief" have?
>
> GAR, by the way, is an acronym for Grand Army of the Republic, an 
> organization for Union verterans of the American Civil War. I had to look 
> it up -- "Troy" had me thinking "Great Argive Raid?" It had its last 
> assembly in the 1950s, and its last member died in the 1960s. That the 
> Civil War is a mythic event in American history and named that way in the 
> poem  perhaps helps prepare for those aforementioned plains.
>
>
> DECLENSIONS
>
>
> And every fair from fair sometimes declines
>
>
> I can recall how yearly
> The ranks of the GAR
> Detectably thinned out
> To an odd handful, merely;
> A bugler, perhaps a scout
> From that distant, mythic war.
>
> In time their canes and crutches
> Were discarded for wheelchairs
> Pushed by some friendly boy;
> Gone were the stalwart marches,
> Their military airs
> Lost on the plains of Troy.
>
> And my own comrades in arms--
> Those of them that survive--
> Must be few and far between;
> The best of them--strong and lean
> And bemedalled--if still alive
> Wil have suffered life's random harms.
>
> The ranks of poet's, too,
> Ronsard and Leopardi,
> Foregather beside the Styx,
> There to receive their due:
> At eighty-eight went Hardy,
> Keats not yet twenty-six.
>
> Worst, those whose minds decay
> Into a lingering stupor
> Beyond the reach of art
> And the common light of day:
> Like H?lderin, Kit Smart,
> And "buried-above-ground" Cowper.
>
> May God preserve my wits,
> Science do what it may
> With scissors and thread and paste
> To maintain the remaining bits
> And faculties of today
> That have not yet gone to wastge.
>
> Eyesight and hearing fade:
> Yet I do not greatly care
> If the grim, scythe-wiielding thief
> Pursue his larcenous trade,
> Thoiugh qanguished by the grief
> Two that I love must bear.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Nov 21 18:53:11 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:53:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Exultations and Difficulties
In-Reply-To: <004801c4d00a$2ab9b340$0fa80252@SPARKLE100>
References: <004801c4d00a$2ab9b340$0fa80252@SPARKLE100>
Message-ID: <8083920E-3C18-11D9-AE99-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Nov 21, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Martin Stannard wrote:
> forthcoming:- reviews of books by
> 	? 	Katerina Anghelaki-Rooke

Martin, is this a new translation (by Jackie?) of Katerina?  What's the 
title?

Wendy

Wendy Battin              wjbat at conncoll.edu
http://www.upwardcat.com/home.html
--------------------------

Curb your god.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov 21 19:05:08 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:05:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
Message-ID: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/21/2004 1:55:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hruggier at localnet.com writes:

> Princeton's program is headed up by Paul Muldoon.
> Brown has CD Wright, I believe. Lucie Brock-Broido
> and Paul Violi are at Columbia. So it would be hard to 
> claim that the Ivies are stuck in a time-warp impervious
> to the modes and influences of contemporary poetry.
> 
> Why?  What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems 
> that the Times is reviewing?  
> 

Bob, I'd start with Deep Step Come Shining...or Moi Sand
and Gravel, for that matter. It's not that these are behind
the Times, per se, but you may be behind the times in
terms of what you believe contemporary poets are up to.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 19:34:25 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:34:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com>
Message-ID: <027501c4d02b$05063300$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>


What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems that the Times is reviewing?  



  Bob, I'd start with Deep Step Come Shining...or Moi Sand
  and Gravel, for that matter. It's not that these are behind
  the Times, per se, but you may be behind the times in
  terms of what you believe contemporary poets are up to.
  Finnegan 
  Okay, James, I'll admit to not ever having heard of "Deep Step Come Shining."  Tell me about it.  What's it do that's technically new?  Or significantly new in any other way?  And why aren't poets talking about the new tools it's allowing them to use.

  I'll further admit that I don't keep up with contemporary poetry published by Knopf, The Hudson Review, and the like--out of an arrogant belief that standard free verse can't do anything interestingly new--and, of course, standard formal verse doesn't want to--and that the standard venues would never publish it or discussions of it if it did.

  --Bob 


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 21 22:00:09 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:00:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02d701c4d03f$612e2e30$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Never mind posting about Deep Step Come Shining.  I did a search and found that is a book by C D Wright, with whose poetry I'm slightly familiar--i.e., I've read a handful of her things.  I just now read some more.  Not bad.  Better than what was posted here of hers seemed to me.  Another Jorie Graham, seems to me; different subject matter, interests, but same standard combination of jump-cut and surrealism the way Eliot did it in "The Wasteland."  I can't see that she's doing anything new.  

Ironically, the first link I found to her is a blurb she made for an anthology of "experimental poetry" I have mathemaku in!  It's edited by two professors.  University of Alabama publication.  

--Bob 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 7:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art


  In a message dated 11/21/2004 1:55:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes:


    Princeton's program is headed up by Paul Muldoon.
    Brown has CD Wright, I believe. Lucie Brock-Broido
    and Paul Violi are at Columbia. So it would be hard to 
    claim that the Ivies are stuck in a time-warp impervious
    to the modes and influences of contemporary poetry.

    Why?  What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems that the Times is reviewing?  



  Bob, I'd start with Deep Step Come Shining...or Moi Sand
  and Gravel, for that matter. It's not that these are behind
  the Times, per se, but you may be behind the times in
  terms of what you believe contemporary poets are up to.
  Finnegan 


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From jsafdie at comcast.net  Sun Nov 21 22:43:29 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 19:43:29 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Revell (with apologies for length)
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEDCJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net><004d01c4d012$f6a76210$a62bb750@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<CAB7FECC-3C0E-11D9-878D-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <016c01c4d045$6e482840$56001118@D6T95L21>

I subscribe to the New York Times (even though living out in the provinces 
in Seattle), and read with some interest this Sunday's Book Review, partly 
because of the alerts to it on this list. I wanted to start this post with a 
website that won't be found in any of the thousands of words in this Review, 
though . . .

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

. . . because I think it best illustrates what I found most interesting 
about the issue, the symposium of poets, whether it came from John Ashbery:

"Democracy is after all what our land is all about, or was until fairly 
recently . . ."

or Jorie Graham:

"There is a strain in our poetry that wants to speak in a tone of voice, out 
of a predicament, that feels exclusively American . . . You have to be able 
to tell you are being lied to, to be this angry." (talking about Denis 
Johnson)

or Mary Karr's summary of the art of Zbigniew Herbert:

"In a time of great terror and prevarication, this voice can heal us."

I agree with this three radically dis-similar writers that we're living 
through a time of great terror and prevarication, and always look, in the 
poetry that I read now, for some recognition of that fact, sans rhetoric, 
sans obvious calls to do this or that. (I do agree, after all, with another 
writer in the symposium, Jim Harrison, who said "It's only the work that 
matters.")

So it was with great pleasure that I read of the work of a poet who was 
unfamiliar to me . . . Donald Revell . . . in an article by Brenda Hillman 
in the most recent issue of *The Nation* (a venerable lefty magazine which 
I'm sure Paul Lake and Bob Grumman have lifetime subscriptions to).

As I haven't yet obtained any of his books, here's one of his poems quoted 
by Hillman, "Moving Day":

My bed abandoned
On a ranch road
Waits for anyone,
And they should hurry.
It's a good bed,
If the roads were level
I'd have it still.

Not half so lucky,
The teapot's in pieces
In a trash barrel.
It was *white* white
When I bought it
And I was new to poetry
Twenty years ago.

We're not home yet.
And I'm still new
To my callings:
Teacher, drunkard, absent minister.
I was in Carcassone once.
I saw two horses there
And God who invented them.

I don't usually pay a lot of attention to articles about poetry in 
newspapers or periodicals, especially in *The Nation*, which, for all of its 
revolutionary spirit, usually publishes poetry I find pedestrian and 
traditional. But something about this one got me -- made me re-read it again 
and again. Writing in such short lines is HARD -- hard to maintain a 
consistently engaging line with only two or three "beats," hard to avoid 
sentiment or cliche (at times I think Revell comes close to it, yet 
magically avoids it).

Here are some things Hillman, presciently, says about Revell's latest book, 
*My Mojave*:

"there is an ethical proposition that it is possible to be simultaneously 
contemporary and radically innocent."

"The 'Mohave' of the title--with its 'j' as a 'ha' sound--is not only a 
place name but also the name of a native population in Western America, 
troubled by invaders. The book asks us to hold the question of 
responsibility to place as part of its quest for a practical ethics."

"As this is being written, America is still stumbling through the mistaken 
empire-building in Iraq, supposedly for the sake of national security and in 
the name of Christian ideals."

As that last quote might seem as if it's slipping into rhetoric, I hasten to 
quote from one more poem from Revell's book, "The Government of Heaven":

One and soon
Another hummingbird
Alights very near

They do not stir
In the branches anymore
For a long time

This is really the world
In June 2000
Ours and mine

I just think that excerpt from a long poem . . . remarkable, and for some of 
the same reasons Hillman cites, in her essay, which I highly recommend. As 
I'm sure many of you must be familiar with this poet, I'd welcome any 
thoughts or opinions you had about his work.

Joe Safdie





From tad at opus40.org  Sun Nov 21 23:57:08 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:57:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com>
	<027501c4d02b$05063300$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <009401c4d04f$ba261bf0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Bob - well, I've taught you, and I'm as mainstream-Iowa-traditional as they come.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 7:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art



  What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems that the Times is reviewing?  



    Bob, I'd start with Deep Step Come Shining...or Moi Sand
    and Gravel, for that matter. It's not that these are behind
    the Times, per se, but you may be behind the times in
    terms of what you believe contemporary poets are up to.
    Finnegan 
    Okay, James, I'll admit to not ever having heard of "Deep Step Come Shining."  Tell me about it.  What's it do that's technically new?  Or significantly new in any other way?  And why aren't poets talking about the new tools it's allowing them to use. 

    I'll further admit that I don't keep up with contemporary poetry published by Knopf, The Hudson Review, and the like--out of an arrogant belief that standard free verse can't do anything interestingly new--and, of course, standard formal verse doesn't want to--and that the standard venues would never publish it or discussions of it if it did. 

    --Bob 





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov 22 02:16:48 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:16:48 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com><027501c4d02b$05063300$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<009401c4d04f$ba261bf0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <008101c4d063$3b40aad0$05d93052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

By John Tranter on _Why is modern poetry so difficult?_
And thank you to Michael Snider, you are one out of many, care, anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  From: The Old Mole 
  Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 5:57 AM


  Bob - well, I've taught you, and I'm as mainstream-Iowa-traditional as they come.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 7:34 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art



    What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems that the Times is reviewing?  



      Bob, I'd start with Deep Step Come Shining...or Moi Sand
      and Gravel, for that matter. It's not that these are behind
      the Times, per se, but you may be behind the times in
      terms of what you believe contemporary poets are up to.
      Finnegan 
      Okay, James, I'll admit to not ever having heard of "Deep Step Come Shining."  Tell me about it.  What's it do that's technically new?  Or significantly new in any other way?  And why aren't poets talking about the new tools it's allowing them to use. 

      I'll further admit that I don't keep up with contemporary poetry published by Knopf, The Hudson Review, and the like--out of an arrogant belief that standard free verse can't do anything interestingly new--and, of course, standard formal verse doesn't want to--and that the standard venues would never publish it or discussions of it if it did. 

      --Bob 





----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov 22 02:27:20 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:27:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com><027501c4d02b$05063300$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009401c4d04f$ba261bf0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<008101c4d063$3b40aad0$05d93052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00c601c4d064$b4835770$05d93052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Forgot the link, and corrected what I wanted to tell Michael, just got up, sorry:
http://www.austlit.com/jt/prose/2004-mp.html

By John Tranter on _Why is modern poetry so difficult?_
  And thank you to Michael Snider, 
  there are many who do not think it that way, care, anny
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 22 06:21:23 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:21:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com><027501c4d02b$05063300$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<009401c4d04f$ba261bf0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <006901c4d085$66648cf0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Bob - well, I've taught you, and I'm as mainstream-Iowa-traditional as they come.

I"ve learned a huge amount from knownstreamers, Mole--almost certainly more than from anyone else.  Nothing wrong with teaching the tradition--just that it'd be nice, as I keep saying, if teaching a little of new, as well, took place more than it does.

--Bob G.
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From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov 22 07:45:40 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:45:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c4d091$2d6f9820$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Hearing Rae Armantrout 
(the tell-tale sign of a good audience)

Fallujah in Pictures

"Her lungs heavy with asbestos"
A constructivist memoir

"A bus ride is better than most art"
-- Here's why

An interview on blogging

Cognitive blends
& the parsimony principle
(more on poetry & language)

Poetry, language
& linguistics
(revisiting Ruth Altmann)

Micropublishing & the 
self-published chapbook:
Tinker Greene's
Man Going to His Doom

Micropublishing & 
magazines - 
Primary Writing
& the poetry of Norma Cole

The diamond of resentment:
Edward Dorn
& his Chicago Review festschrift

Ruth Altmann - a new
New York School poet

4 more years?
Where do we go from here?

Joe Brainard -
A new memoir by Ron Padgett
& the role of memoirs
in the NY School

Moolaade -
Resistance to female circumcision
in Burkina Faso
(a film by Ousmane Sembene)

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 22 07:53:16 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 05:53:16 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] latest SPOON RIVER POETRY REVIEW now available
References: <104.54ec209b.2ed0146f@cs.com>
	<006a01c4ceef$80901b90$7fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<002e01c4cf17$af9547d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<00f701c4cf22$2b2d18f0$760c9942@Helen>
	<5514A52E-3B2E-11D9-A526-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
	<01dd01c4cf3b$ec5a7db0$7aed3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<6.0.3.0.2.20041120154445.02d42be0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <41A1E13B.AD1AAD4B@earthlink.net>



Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> 
> The Summer/Fall 2004 issue of SRPR is now available. Contributors copies
> are being mailed as I write.
> 
> In this issue:

These names I recognize: Anny Ballardini,  James Bertolino,  James
Cervantes, Jennifer Chapis, Catherine Daly,  Max Jacob,  Kent Johnson, 
Pierre Joris,  John Latta, Rachel Loden, Michael Magee, Sheila Murphy, 
Anthony Robinson, Mary Ruefle, Helen Ruggieri,  Alan Sondheim,  Chris Stroffolino.

Looking forward to the read.

- Jim


From tad at opus40.org  Mon Nov 22 10:08:24 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:08:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com><027501c4d02b$05063300$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009401c4d04f$ba261bf0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<008101c4d063$3b40aad0$05d93052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <002c01c4d0a5$1eb9c990$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Also re Auden and difficulty, this epigram from the 30s - I don't remember who wrote it:

  The workingman will never know
  What Auden means, who loves him so.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 2:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art


  By John Tranter on _Why is modern poetry so difficult?_
  And thank you to Michael Snider, you are one out of many, care, anny

  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
  Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


    From: The Old Mole 
    Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 5:57 AM


    Bob - well, I've taught you, and I'm as mainstream-Iowa-traditional as they come.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Bob Grumman 
      To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
      Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 7:34 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art



      What do you think these people are teaching besides the kind of poems that the Times is reviewing?  



        Bob, I'd start with Deep Step Come Shining...or Moi Sand
        and Gravel, for that matter. It's not that these are behind
        the Times, per se, but you may be behind the times in
        terms of what you believe contemporary poets are up to.
        Finnegan 
        Okay, James, I'll admit to not ever having heard of "Deep Step Come Shining."  Tell me about it.  What's it do that's technically new?  Or significantly new in any other way?  And why aren't poets talking about the new tools it's allowing them to use. 

        I'll further admit that I don't keep up with contemporary poetry published by Knopf, The Hudson Review, and the like--out of an arrogant belief that standard free verse can't do anything interestingly new--and, of course, standard formal verse doesn't want to--and that the standard venues would never publish it or discussions of it if it did. 

        --Bob 





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From tad at opus40.org  Mon Nov 22 10:15:38 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:15:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
References: <97.52f611c7.2ed28734@aol.com><027501c4d02b$05063300$1fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc><009401c4d04f$ba261bf0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
	<006901c4d085$66648cf0$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <005501c4d0a6$21a84180$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>

Teaching anything at all is a good thing, and getting harder and harder to do.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 6:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art


  Bob - well, I've taught you, and I'm as mainstream-Iowa-traditional as they come.

  I"ve learned a huge amount from knownstreamers, Mole--almost certainly more than from anyone else.  Nothing wrong with teaching the tradition--just that it'd be nice, as I keep saying, if teaching a little of new, as well, took place more than it does.

  --Bob G.


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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 22 10:26:58 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:26:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
In-Reply-To: <002c01c4d0a5$1eb9c990$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <20041122152658.8222.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com>

isn't the 'workingman' an abstraction already, a
stereotype that doesn't boil down and what does it
matter anyway what the 'workingman' or even
'workingmen' understand or fail to?  I must admit that
I used to worry about what such stereotypes thought or
felt but I don't care anymore.  Let them enjoy
pornography/cheap dime novels/romance/Stephen King/old
Elvis eps because it just doesn't matter. 
Homogenisation appears when a certain business group
want to sell something but people and their tastes are
rarely taken into account because no one would ever
have loved an obvious trash Queen like Elvis, would
they?  If it hadn't been given the hard sell.  
I think your a tad workerist if you think that anyone
cares about such things.
As for standard free verse or standard formal verse,
what about standard good verse or doesn't that come
into your schema?  I think the vehicle fits the
subject matter but is it always so.  I mean bad poetry
can be good, look at umpteen numbers of poets who
boiled down many pretences and sold themselves to an
uncaring world.  
--- The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

> Also re Auden and difficulty, this epigram from the
> 30s - I don't remember who wrote it:
> 
>   The workingman will never know
>   What Auden means, who loves him so.
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Anny Ballardini 
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> 
>   Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 2:16 AM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
> 


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 



From clitophon at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 22 10:28:16 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:28:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
In-Reply-To: <005501c4d0a6$21a84180$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <20041122152816.81660.qmail@web40407.mail.yahoo.com>

things are rarer these days, such as dead moles
old vole
and viler still than fried old mole on a plate
swimming with gravy....
--- The Old Mole <tad at opus40.org> wrote:

> Teaching anything at all is a good thing, and
> getting harder and harder to do.
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Bob Grumman 
>   To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views
> 
>   Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 6:21 AM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Enemies of our art
> 
> 
>   Bob - well, I've taught you, and I'm as
> mainstream-Iowa-traditional as they come.
> 
>   I"ve learned a huge amount from knownstreamers,
> Mole--almost certainly more than from anyone else. 
> Nothing wrong with teaching the tradition--just that
> it'd be nice, as I keep saying, if teaching a little
> of new, as well, took place more than it does.
> 
>   --Bob G.
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
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The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Nov 22 06:00:44 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 05:00:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Revell (with apologies for length)
In-Reply-To: <016c01c4d045$6e482840$56001118@D6T95L21>
Message-ID: <BDC722FC.78D0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 11/21/04 9:43 PM, "Joe Safdie" <jsafdie at comcast.net> wrote:

> in the most recent issue of *The Nation* (a venerable lefty magazine which
> I'm sure Paul Lake and Bob Grumman have lifetime subscriptions to).

I don't subscribe, but I've often read it and still have it listed among the
"Favorites" on my Explorer website list. It's good to hear diverse opinions.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Nov 22 16:32:51 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:32:51 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rita Dove, poet, fiery new dancer, back home
Message-ID: <67.3878c42c.2ed3b503@aol.com>

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/local/10231207.htm?1c
Posted on Sun, Nov. 21, 2004 
 
Say, that `Rita that grew up down the street' is visiting
 
That'd be Rita Dove, poet, fiery new dancer, back home
 
By David Giffels
Beacon Journal staff writer
  
You want her to speak in poetry, and she does.
 
Even when she announces over the cell phone that they are lost, she and her 
husband, driving to Little Rock, where she will read a new poem at the 
dedication of the Clinton presidential library -- even then, Rita Dove's carefree 
laugh makes poetry.
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From martinstannard at ntlworld.com  Mon Nov 22 18:07:54 2004
From: martinstannard at ntlworld.com (Martin Stannard)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 23:07:54 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Exultations and Difficulties
Message-ID: <000601c4d0e8$1aac5c30$0fa80252@SPARKLE100>

Hello Wendy

The book is called "Translating Into Love Life's End"  -- it's a bilingual edition published by Shoestring Press here in the UK. In Nottingham, in fact. The publisher is a friend of mine (as if that makes any difference.) I don't actually have the book here because someone else has reviewed it for me, so I don't know who has done the translation..... Katerina is not a poet I know anything about, to be honest. My reviewer thought the book really good. (I will ask him to tell me who translated it.....)

Best,
Martin

Home Page: www.martinstannard.co.uk
Blog (here will be found musings, poems by various great poets, and occasional reviews. It's a blog-thing....) http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/

"Some days are blighted, some are blessed."
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov 22 18:10:26 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:10:26 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] If you are in New York
Message-ID: <01ef01c4d0e8$743f92d0$45e03652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

LESLIE THORNTON and ALAN SONDHEIM screening of new work

We're wearing matching Jean-Paul Gaultier shirts!

NOVEMBER 27th (Saturday) at 8 p.m.

at MILLENNIUM
66 East Fourth Street, New York

Please come!

LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: MINUS 10, 9, 8, 7 (20 min., 2004) by LESLIE
THORNTON. "LET ME COUNT THE WAYS is an ongoing serial about violent terror
and its aftermath. In episodes Minus 10, 9,8, and 7, personal reminiscence
is mixed with archival and new footage in an exploration of the interior
of fear. From footage of the artist, a father on the way to Hiroshima,
through reference to 9/11, the phenomenology of horror and the echo of its
rupture are presented with an intensity which moves the viewer from
history to the present and beyond." (Leslie Thornton)

WORLD PREMIER (length and presentation mode variable, 2004+), by ALAN
SONDHEIM. "I usually work with laptop performance; this time we'll try DVD
+ voiceover. It's more monolithic, maybe more intense." "Sondheim produced
many of these works through creative mis-use and adaptation of the motion
capture technologies at the VEL (Virtual Environments Laboratory). Using
the technology against the grain, Sondheim disrupted and redistributed
built-in assumptions about the imaging and integrity of the human body and
the capture of the 'real.' The results are beautiful and moving, both
alien and very human, enigmatic and intimate." (Sandy Baldwin, West
Virginia University)

Admission $7 / $5 member
Telephone 212-673-0090 for further information.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 22 18:56:14 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:56:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Revell (with apologies for length)
References: <BDC722FC.78D0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <016701c4d0ee$d9f5e060$2cb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> in the most recent issue of *The Nation* (a venerable lefty magazine 
>> which
>> I'm sure Paul Lake and Bob Grumman have lifetime subscriptions to).
>
> I don't subscribe, but I've often read it and still have it listed among 
> the
> "Favorites" on my Explorer website list. It's good to hear diverse 
> opinions.
>
> Paul Lake

The Nation actually reviewed a magazine I had work in once (negatively, of 
course, in amusingly the same way the New Criterion would have, if the New 
Criterion even recognized the existence of burstnorm poetry), so I don't 
want to be too harsh on it.  I don't read it, but I'm sure Joe didn't really 
think I did.

--Bob G. 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 23 11:53:17 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:53:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGPJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Escape Hatch

I could crevice
this bag of tricks wind
goes through.

Or on a hill
woodshedding.

The zeal of animals.

A new skein of
notes, blues,
give them away the agate.

Carpenters glow

A fleet of swag-bellies
or mole breath
cyclone.

Rob a brocade.

Mesh them up:
alto, tenor,
broken-down pollen.

Take the new
bones and the trunk,
voltage,
handful of bolts.

Lady knew me in
bandages.

A wrist, too.

Bituminous mouthpiece.

A bow hoists the sax.

Notes fly,
come apart.

Flats rivet high.

Get inside metal
one pickpocket.

air--tool marrow.

wind.

#3 reed, #2 reed,
#2? reed, getting my
map and high temperature.

Anti-mithradatism.

Tinsel up.

All in splinter, flex, once
and for all get my arm
from the sling.

Metal banquet.

Playing like a catalept.

--Bruce Andrews

in *Ironwood* #3, Dec. 1973

and in Michael Cuddihy, *Try Ironwood: An Editor Remembers*
[Boston: Rowan Tree Press, 1990]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Tue Nov 23 13:01:32 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:01:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGPJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGPJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20041123130122.V69191@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Nice. I think we could all use an escape hatch sometimes ;)

-kpaul

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> Escape Hatch
>
> I could crevice
> this bag of tricks wind
> goes through.
>
> Or on a hill
> woodshedding.
>
> The zeal of animals.
>
> A new skein of
> notes, blues,
> give them away the agate.
>
> Carpenters glow
>
> A fleet of swag-bellies
> or mole breath
> cyclone.
>
> Rob a brocade.
>
> Mesh them up:
> alto, tenor,
> broken-down pollen.
>
> Take the new
> bones and the trunk,
> voltage,
> handful of bolts.
>
> Lady knew me in
> bandages.
>
> A wrist, too.
>
> Bituminous mouthpiece.
>
> A bow hoists the sax.
>
> Notes fly,
> come apart.
>
> Flats rivet high.
>
> Get inside metal
> one pickpocket.
>
> air--tool marrow.
>
> wind.
>
> #3 reed, #2 reed,
> #2? reed, getting my
> map and high temperature.
>
> Anti-mithradatism.
>
> Tinsel up.
>
> All in splinter, flex, once
> and for all get my arm
> from the sling.
>
> Metal banquet.
>
> Playing like a catalept.
>
> --Bruce Andrews
>
> in *Ironwood* #3, Dec. 1973
>
> and in Michael Cuddihy, *Try Ironwood: An Editor Remembers*
> [Boston: Rowan Tree Press, 1990]
>
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

From martinstannard at ntlworld.com  Tue Nov 23 15:51:08 2004
From: martinstannard at ntlworld.com (Martin Stannard)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:08 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] EXultations and Difficulties
Message-ID: <003001c4d19e$29a5b4a0$0fa80252@SPARKLE100>

Re: Katerina Anghelaki-Rooke --
My reviewer tells me that the biog on the back of the book says - Katerina was born in Greece in 1939 and is known for her translations from/into Greek - Samuel Beckett et al. The only Russian connection is that she translated Brodsky from Russian. There's nothing to suggest previous publication, so it looks like this is a new book. 

Best,
Martin Stannard

Home Page: www.martinstannard.co.uk
Blog (here will be found musings, poems by various great poets, and occasional reviews. It's a blog-thing....) http://exultationsanddifficulties.blogspot.com/

"Some days are blighted, some are blessed."
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 23 16:30:23 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:30:23 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zoo Press editor interviewed
Message-ID: <13f.7108f30.2ed505ef@aol.com>

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=57&u_sid=1266707
 
November 23, 2004
 
Asked and Answered: Omaha 's great place for poetry
 
BY JOHN KEENAN
WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER  
 
Poet Neil Azevedo is the founder of Zoo Press, a publishing house that is 
marking its first year in Omaha this week. 
   
Azevedo has published works by Jeff Tweedy of the rock group Wilco, as well 
as poets Eric Ormsby, Rachel Hadas, Joe Harrison and Therese Svoboda. 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 23 20:13:30 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:13:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
Message-ID: <68.497006e0.2ed53a3a@aol.com>

Some nice moments...could we say that the
new period style is 'Six Fragments In Search Of A Poem'?

In a message dated 11/23/2004 11:55:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> 
> Escape Hatch
> 
> I could crevice
> this bag of tricks wind
> goes through.
> 
> Or on a hill
> woodshedding.
> 
> The zeal of animals.
> 
> A new skein of
> notes, blues,
> give them away the agate.
> 
> Carpenters glow
> 
> A fleet of swag-bellies
> or mole breath
> cyclone.
> 
> Rob a brocade.
> 
> Mesh them up:
> alto, tenor,
> broken-down pollen.
> 
> Take the new
> bones and the trunk,
> voltage,
> handful of bolts.
> 
> Lady knew me in
> bandages.
> 
> A wrist, too.
> 
> Bituminous mouthpiece.
> 
> A bow hoists the sax.
> 
> Notes fly,
> come apart.
> 
> Flats rivet high.
> 
> Get inside metal
> one pickpocket.
> 
> air--tool marrow.
> 
> wind.
> 
> #3 reed, #2 reed,
> #2? reed, getting my
> map and high temperature.
> 
> Anti-mithradatism.
> 
> Tinsel up.
> 
> All in splinter, flex, once
> and for all get my arm
> from the sling.
> 
> Metal banquet.
> 
> Playing like a catalept.
> 
> --Bruce Andrews
> 

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 23 21:42:35 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:42:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
References: <68.497006e0.2ed53a3a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <028801c4d1cf$41d46310$7db831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Some nice moments...could we say that the
new period style is 'Six Fragments In Search Of A Poem'?

My impression, too.  But, perhaps, reread a few times, it can cohere?

--Bob G.
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From memexikon at mwt.net  Tue Nov 23 21:48:34 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:48:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
In-Reply-To: <68.497006e0.2ed53a3a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5577A490-3DC3-11D9-8963-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>

I don't know many creators of "new period style" who would spend their  
time searching for a poem when the awe of discovery, of a practice  
defined by many years of attention to intention  are a whole lot more  
rewarding than searching.  Searching for a poem is something to do with  
google:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22In+Search+Of+A+Poem%22&ie=UTF- 
8&oe=UTF-8

mIEKAL



On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 07:13 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Some nice moments...could we say that the
> new period style is 'Six Fragments In Search Of A Poem'?
>
> In a message dated 11/23/2004 11:55:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,  
> halvard at earthlink.net writes:
>
>
> Escape Hatch
>
> I could crevice
> this bag of tricks wind
> goes through.
>
> Or on a hill
> woodshedding.
>
> The zeal of animals.
>
> A new skein of
> notes, blues,
> give them away the agate.
>
> Carpenters glow
>
> A fleet of swag-bellies
> or mole breath
> cyclone.
>
> Rob a brocade.
>
> Mesh them up:
> alto, tenor,
> broken-down pollen.
>
> Take the new
> bones and the trunk,
> voltage,
> handful of bolts.
>
> Lady knew me in
> bandages.
>
> A wrist, too.
>
> Bituminous mouthpiece.
>
> A bow hoists the sax.
>
> Notes fly,
> come apart.
>
> Flats rivet high.
>
> Get inside metal
> one pickpocket.
>
> air--tool marrow.
>
> wind.
>
> #3 reed, #2 reed,
> #2? reed, getting my
> map and high temperature.
>
> Anti-mithradatism.
>
> Tinsel up.
>
> All in splinter, flex, once
> and for all get my arm
> from the sling.
>
> Metal banquet.
>
> Playing like a catalept.
>
> --Bruce Andrews
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND

http://www.joglars.org
http://www.spidertangle.net
http://www.xexoxial.org
http://www.neologisms.us
http://www.dreamtimevillage.org

"The word is the first stereotype."  Isidore Isou, 1947.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 24 06:57:49 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:57:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  D. Clinton,
	"The River:  The Passage" plus
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEIIJFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


The River:  The Passage

mates. we must bore this continent like nothing ever. there is a river. there is a land
break. we can sandblast this way & trade skins for a guide & information. up & down
for years mates & we keep the king incommunicado. the natives they paddle out bright
peacocks & oh Lord Lord we are fat as tuna & how do we harvest these delectables. they
signal in their hands & bounce off toes      there is a deep running current & we can
navigate this delta & fjords & geographers busy illustrating swamps with a little
grass turf   space   then a little grass turf. where do we bury fires. how do we roast.
who can we eat. & an ancient terrifying mask stands in a canoe     speaks braille
& points. there is no treaty & we cautious to get stuck start ramming powder & bricks
the cannons pointed in disguise behind balsa & we invite a parley. discussion
in root language. using the eyes as believers. establishing hope. we shake hands & deathly
afraid follow deep running current watching us draw closer to the crocks & the ecstatic
piranha & what meat they see & we floating closer to the river level     spraying the
wild birds with shot hoping to pull out hoping to use reverse hoping to draw power
from the slaves pleading innocence pleading backward backward & we now
even with river line & mask looks back starts belly roll & we know this
is not India & mostly we are too far south & think of the trade missions     the blazing
crosses & like gnats the little fish move in & we delectable & we good down to the bones.

--D. Clinton

in Ironwood 6, Vol. 3, No. 2 (1975)

plus a seasonal favorite--


A Thanksgiving Prayer


For John Dillinger, in the hope that he is still alive.
(Thanksgiving Day, November 28th 1986)

Thanks for the wild turkey and the passenger pigeons, 
	destined to be shit out through wholesome American guts. 
Thanks for a continent to despoil and poison. 
Thanks for Indians to provide a modicum of challenge and danger. 
Thanks for vast herds of bison to kill and skin, leaving the carcasses to rot. 
Thanks for bounties on wolves and coyotes. 
Thanks for the American Dream--to vulgarize and falsify until the bare 
	lies shine through. 
Thanks for the K.K.K. 
For nigger-killing lawmen feeling their notches. 
For decent, church-going women with their mean, pinched, bitter evil faces. 
Thanks for Kill A Queer For Christ stickers. 
Thanks for laboratory AIDS. 
Thanks for prohibition, and the war against drugs. 
Thanks for a country where nobody is allowed to mind his own business. 
Thanks for a nation of finks. 
Yes, thanks for all the memories--"Alright, let's see your arms." 
You always were a headache and you always were a bore. 
Thanks, for the last and greatest betrayal, of the last and greatest of 
	human dreams . . .

--William S. Burroughs


Hal          

Halvard Johnson
============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Nov 24 11:33:47 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:33:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
References: <5577A490-3DC3-11D9-8963-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
Message-ID: <007401c4d243$5f693a30$79a93252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

This is funny...
are you back from Tzara?

cheers, miCH

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mIEKAL aND 
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"


  I don't know many creators of "new period style" who would spend their time searching for a poem when the awe of discovery, of a practice defined by many years of attention to intention are a whole lot more rewarding than searching. Searching for a poem is something to do with google:

  http://www.google.com/search?q=%22In+Search+Of+A+Poem%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

  mIEKAL



  On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 07:13 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:


    Some nice moments...could we say that the
    new period style is 'Six Fragments In Search Of A Poem'?

    In a message dated 11/23/2004 11:55:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:


    Escape Hatch

    I could crevice
    this bag of tricks wind
    goes through.

    Or on a hill
    woodshedding.

    The zeal of animals.

    A new skein of
    notes, blues,
    give them away the agate.

    Carpenters glow

    A fleet of swag-bellies
    or mole breath
    cyclone.

    Rob a brocade.

    Mesh them up:
    alto, tenor,
    broken-down pollen.

    Take the new
    bones and the trunk,
    voltage,
    handful of bolts.

    Lady knew me in
    bandages.

    A wrist, too.

    Bituminous mouthpiece.

    A bow hoists the sax.

    Notes fly,
    come apart.

    Flats rivet high.

    Get inside metal
    one pickpocket.

    air--tool marrow.

    wind.

    #3 reed, #2 reed,
    #2? reed, getting my
    map and high temperature.

    Anti-mithradatism.

    Tinsel up.

    All in splinter, flex, once
    and for all get my arm
    from the sling.

    Metal banquet.

    Playing like a catalept.

    --Bruce Andrews



    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


  24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND

  http://www.joglars.org
  http://www.spidertangle.net
  http://www.xexoxial.org
  http://www.neologisms.us
  http://www.dreamtimevillage.org

  "The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 24 14:52:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:52:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
Message-ID: <d4.1bdc6e24.2ed64076@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/23/2004 9:48:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
memexikon at mwt.net writes:
I don't know many creators of "new period style" who would spend their  
time searching for a poem when the awe of discovery, of a practice  
defined by many years of attention to intention  are a whole lot more  
rewarding than searching.  Searching for a poem is something to do with  
google:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22In+Search+Of+A+Poem%22&ie=UTF- 
8&oe=UTF-8

mIEKAL
MiEKAL, not certain what you're saying...I was making 
an observation about the number of contemporary poems
built as (seemingly) unrelated sequences of phrases,
images and observations. Using Pirandello's famous play
title as a little jab at the practice. The poems of this type seem
to be all about 'attention' to the nodes/dots, which aren't readily
connected or perhaps were never intended to be connected 
in any discernible fashion. No intention is manifest in the manifest,
shall we say.
A Google search creates nothing other than a list; albeit a 
connected one: connected by matches to a search word(s). 
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 24 15:16:48 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:16:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Two by Olds
Message-ID: <13d.7113bb0.2ed64630@aol.com>

Here are two poems from STRIKE SPARKS by Sharon Olds, a collection of 117 of 
her finest poems drawn from her seven published volumes. 
***************************************
 
 
Topography
(from THE GOLD CELL, 1987)
 
After we flew across the country we 
got in bed, laid our bodies 
intricately together, like maps laid
face to face, East to West, my
San Francisco against your New York, your 
Fire Island against my Sonoma, my 
New Orleans deep in your Texas, your Idaho
bright on my Great Lakes, my Kansas 
burning against your Kansas your Kansas
burning against my Kansas, your Eastern
Standard Time pressing into my
Pacific Time, my Mountain Time 
beating against your Central Time, your
sun rising swiftly from the right my 
sun rising swiftly from the left your
moon rising slowly from the left my
moon rising slowly from the right until
all four bodies of the sky
burn above us, sealing us together, 
all our cities twin cities,
all our states united, one
nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
 
 
First Thanksgiving
(from BLOOD, TIN, STRAW, 1999)
 
When she comes back, from college, I will see
the skin of her upper arms, cool, 
matte, glossy. She will hug me, my old 
soupy chest against her breasts,
I will smell her hair! She will sleep in this apartment, 
her sleep like an untamed, good object, like a 
soul in a body. She came into my life the
second great arrival, fresh
from the other world ? which lay, from within him, 
within me. Those nights, I fed her to sleep,
week after week, the moon rising, 
and setting, and waxing ? whirling, over the months, 
in a steady blur, around our planet.
Now she doesn?t need love like that, she has 
had it. She will walk in glowing, we will talk, 
and then, when she?s fast asleep, I?ll exult
to have her in that room again,
behind that door! As a child, I caught
bees, by the wings, and held them, some seconds,
looked into their wild faces,
listened to them sing, then tossed them back
into the air ? I remember the moment the
arc of my toss swerved, and they entered
the corrected curve of their departure. 
 
 
 
 
*************************************** 
>From STRIKE SPARKS: SELECTED POEMS, 1980-2002 by Sharon Olds ? 2004. 
Excerpted by permission of Alfed A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights 
reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without 
permission in writing from the publisher. 
 
***************************************
 
Related links:
 
 About Sharon Olds:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhmJ0DXKYc0Wa0UFd0AW 
 
Order a copy of STRIKE SPARKS online:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhmJ0DXKYc0Wa0bHy0A7 
 
 Download a FREE broadside of another Olds poem:
http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jhmJ0DXKYc0Wa0UFe0AX 
 
*************************************** 
 
You received this issue because your email address is in Knopf's Poem-a-Day 
mailing list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to 
unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com. Or if you received this poem as a forward and wish to subscribe, 
send a blank email to sub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.
 
We welcome your feedback. Please send any thoughts or questions to 
knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com 
 
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From memexikon at mwt.net  Wed Nov 24 16:25:34 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:25:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
In-Reply-To: <d4.1bdc6e24.2ed64076@aol.com>
Message-ID: <60A89960-3E5F-11D9-AACD-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>


On Wednesday, November 24, 2004, at 01:52 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

>
>
> MiEKAL, not certain what you're saying...


Finnegan
I was responding to yr use of the word "searching", as in searching for 
meaning or context or someway for everything to make linear sense, as 
if that was the intended purpose.  The works that I find most 
innovative & interesting are not concerned with searching for anything, 
especially some sort of linear coherence that could be condensed into 
cliffnotes.



> I was making
> an observation about the number of contemporary poems
> built as (seemingly)?unrelated?sequences of phrases,
> images and observations. Using Pirandello's famous play
> title as a little jab at the practice.?The poems of this type seem
> to be all about?'attention' to the nodes/dots, which aren't readily
> connected or perhaps were never?intended to be connected
> in any discernible fashion.


Exactly my point.  When you view a painting by an abstract artist or 
listen to modern music, I think first impulse typically is to 
experience the piece as it is apart from trying to figure out what it 
"means".  Non-narrative poetry should be allowed the same sense of 
freedom.

mIEKAL







24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND

http://www.joglars.org
http://www.spidertangle.net
http://www.xexoxial.org
http://www.neologisms.us
http://www.dreamtimevillage.org

"The word is the first stereotype."  Isidore Isou, 1947.
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From memexikon at mwt.net  Wed Nov 24 16:33:34 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:33:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
In-Reply-To: <007401c4d243$5f693a30$79a93252@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <7EA829CA-3E60-11D9-AACD-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>

I'm not sure one can ever return from Tzara, (which in Romanian means 
"country"), but I am back from an amazing month in Romania.  Tried my 
best to search out the Romanian literary avant garde but wasnt able to 
run into any happening scene, only references to the Romanian 
surrealist movement of the 30s & 40s which was quite active in 
Bucuresti.  Did manage to visit the amazing archive ArtPool in Budapest 
which has room after room of samisdat art & literary publications from 
all over eastern Europe going back to the early 60s.

http://www.artpool.hu/Defaulte.html

mIEKAL


On Wednesday, November 24, 2004, at 10:33 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> This is funny...
> are you back from Tzara?
> ?
> cheers, miCH
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 24 17:22:38 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:22:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Salt River Review, Winter 2004-05
Message-ID: <41A509AD.EC6A4B14@earthlink.net>

The Salt River Review, Volume 8, No. 1, Winter, 2004-05 is now online.

Poetry by: Kelly Bancroft , H. Palmer Hall, Richard Henry, Juana de
Ibarbourou, Allen McGill , Gwyn McVay , Selena Millares, Pablo Neruda ,
Carlos Reyes, Stan Sanvel Rubin, Lex Runciman, Eric Low Soon Liang, Mark
Wekander. Fiction by Carole Rosenthal, & Dale Wisely. 

http://www.poetserv.org/


From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 24 18:46:41 2004
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:46:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Head on Fire, Dull But Glowing
In-Reply-To: <20041113142801.QIBV2350.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@DBY2CM31>
Message-ID: <JMENIAHNFGOCLHLNNIPHEEPLCKAA.amyhappens@yahoo.com>

My Head on Fire, Dull But Glowing

http://home.earthlink.net/~glafemina/poetsintheirthirties/id51.html

&

This is the director's cut ...
http://www.unpleasanteventschedule.com/


.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 25 08:43:30 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:43:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <004601c4d2f4$c0616cc0$78b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Dan: I have three entriues at my blog for you to read and respond to, if you 
want to.  I've notified you of this once before.  Let me know if you are 
aware of this and intend to respond.  No hurry about the response, but I do 
want to make sure you know about the entries so you won't repeat your claim 
that I've ignored you essay on me, and I won't incorrectly accuse you of 
being afrid to respond to what I've said.  I critique your Turing poem at 
http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/OldBlogs/Blog00291.html.
I find it confusedly expressed, among other things.  It should provide you 
with a great opportuinity to spout about how stupid I am by easily showing 
that my confusion is my fault, not the poem's.

My entry for yesterday, which I'm writing a day late, will be about the use 
and misuse of assertion.  You might learn something from it, but I doubt 
you're bright enough to.

--Bob G.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Schneider" <cosmoetica at poetic.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 3:52 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry.com Controversy


> http://www.cosmoetica.com/D34-DES25.htm
>
> D34-DES25
> Foetry.com, Chatrooms, & The Decline Of Discourse
> Copyright ? by Dan Schneider, 11/14/04
>
>  A few months ago I was emailed by George Dickerson, who requested that I 
> perhaps review his Selected Poems. I told him that while I thought the 
> book, overall, was good, & his poems better, by a long shot, than most of 
> the enjambed prose that is published & wins awards these days that I would 
> not do so. My reason was that over the last couple years I've developed a 
> relationship with him- well, more of a penpalsmanship. Therefore it would 
> seem highly unethical of me to review his book of poetry. While I could be 
> objective, point out his strengths & weaknesses as a poet, & explain why, 
> the fact that even a quick glance on my website shows that I have been 
> associated with the man, would kybosh my credibility by merely the hint of 
> impropriety, & no matter how well-reasoned a defense I might give of a 
> poem, it would appear I was merely shilling for a colleague.
>  In truth, I've never met the man personally. He emailed me out of the 
> blue a few years back, I put some poems of his on my Vers Magnifique page, 
> conducted an interview with him on my Omniversica radio show, & have 
> averaged 3-4 phone conversations with him the last few years. Now, anyone 
> who attended my Uptown Poetry Group knows that I spare no 1- not me, my 
> wife, nor friends- from criticism of their work, & am confident I could 
> have elucidated things pro & con in Dickerson's book. But, the fact is I 
> was aware of the seeming conflict of interest, as well as its easily 
> reasoned seeming hypocrisy were I to do so. The same is rarely true in 
> outposts other than Cosmoetica. Tales of cronyism in the art world are 
> legion. Allen Ginsberg, for example, is known to have championed the work 
> of any artists he liked, provided he stain their lips with his essence. 
> The whole concept of schools or -isms is based upon promoting someone's 
> work for its similarity to your own, or work that you!
> like, rather than any objective stab at excellence.
>  Why do you think that Beatnik poets rave about their kin, Languagists 
> rave about their kith, & New Formalists echo their literary forebears in 
> anything they deem too vers libre. The fact is that there can be good 
> poetry found in any school or -ism, but its excellence will have to do 
> with a handful of things not exclusive to that school- a mnemonic image or 
> phrase, good music- provided by alliteration, assonance, rime, good 
> enjambment, & the avoidance or subversion of clich?s. All great poetry 
> succeeds using these, & a select few other tools, in an infinite array of 
> ways, juxtapositions, etc., while all bad poetry fails for the lack of 
> those reasons. In short, greatness is its own company.
>  A great poem by Tu Fu, John Donne, Pablo Neruda, Gwendolyn Brooks, me, or 
> a poet yet to be born, will fundamentally share far more qualities with 
> each other than they will with lesser poems by those same poets, or poets 
> in their particular school. That so few poets & critics have ever 
> recognized this fundamental point is why there has always been such 
> vicious sniping (add in my theory of the Divine Inspiration Fallacy as 
> well). Lacking an internal barometer by which to measure poems of 
> different stripes the poets almost invariably fall back on attacking their 
> peers & competitors in ad hominem ways, not by exposing the weaknesses in 
> their poetry.
>  In the last decade or so since the advent of the Internet there have been 
> 2 interesting trends- the explosion of poetry websites & of online 
> chatrooms. Often, these 2 volatile entities come together & the result is 
> not pretty. There are millions of poetry websites out there; almost all 
> are worthless- be they personal poetry pages, resource centers, or wannabe 
> magazines; a form that seems utterly antithetical to the online 
> possibilities of the media. As I write this piece Cosmoetica is listed as 
> the #1 Poetry website online by a major ranking service- Ranking.com. Now, 
> some may dispute that other, more well-funded sites- like Poets & Writer's 
> magazine, Poetry magazine, etc.- get more hits & are not included in this 
> particular batch, & others may say that such ranking services have biases 
> (I agree, & take such with a grain of salt, as many's the time I've seen 
> my site get inundated with hits, only to see my 'ranking' slip- huh?), but 
> the fact remains that Cosmoetica has to b!
> e considered in the top tenth of a percent of poetry websites in terms of 
> hits. The most obvious way I have achieved this is by offering something 
> unique- a website that features quality contemporary poetry & its 
> criticism. No other site online, that I know of, does this. Thus, I have 
> gotten a readership of people who love good poetry & criticism, while all 
> the poseurs, doggerelists, & phonies spend their time troving the 10+ 
> million other poetry sites online. Even if I get a readership of only that 
> tenth of that percent that's a huge chunk compared to most sites that 
> might crow about getting a millionth of a percent.
>  As for chatrooms- thankfully I am not a regular trover of them, nor a 
> websurfer. I go online for 2 reasons- email, & to search out information 
> for works of art I'm creating, or essays. Most chatrooms follow simple 
> arcs. Someone says something, another person attacks that, there is a 
> personalized argument, & others join in the fray. Usually the posters are 
> people with no lives & they spend inordinate amounts of time sniping. 
> Along with bloggers, chatroom mavens are among the sorriest lot of folk 
> going- especially when the chatrooms have to do with art. I just wonder 
> what could be accomplished by these chatters (& bloggers) if their 
> energies were focused more on creative ventures.
>  Let me return to my opening thrust on being aware of the appearance of 
> impropriety, & its lack in the poetry world. Recently, I learned of a 
> website called Foetry.com , in a New York Times piece of a few weeks back 
> that lauded it, Cosmoetica, & a few other sites as notable poetic pit 
> stops. Foetry's main claim to fame is as self-described watchdogs 
> regarding the ethics of poetry. In a sense, its mission is to arts ethics 
> what Cosmoetica's is to arts excellence. They hope to weed out poetry 
> contest scams, & cronyism between judges, editors, & former colleagues & 
> students....
> -- 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Nov 25 11:42:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:42:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Goeffrey Gatza: Kent Johnson
Message-ID: <007001c4d30d$cd2b7770$eaa93252@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi,

Once again Thanksgiving is being celebrated in a menu poem series, this
years special guest is Kent Johnson

http://www.blazevox.org/books/thanksgiving.htm

This menu series is for a gathering of friends from around the globe to
join in for a poetic feast and celebrate one of our favorite poets. Kent
has made a tremendous impact on so many of our lives that it is fitting
to honor him on our American holiday of thanksgiving. There is also a
limited edition printing of this poem, only 25 copies being produced --
all for only $10 this will help gather much needed advertising dollars
to help this little press grow.

http://www.cafepress.com/blazevox.14362168

Have a happy and healthy holiday weekend :-)


Excelsior

Best, Geoffrey





 Geoffrey Gatza
        __o
    _`\<,_
   (*) /  (*)

+  Avatar(TM) :life & death of Superman
BUY it NOW >  http://www.blazevox.org/books/gg.htm
++ BlazeVOX | Editor :   http://www.blazevox.org
+++ Poetry USA | Bio :    http://www.blazevox.org/gatza



Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Nov 25 12:45:08 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:45:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cliffsnotes
In-Reply-To: <60A89960-3E5F-11D9-AACD-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
Message-ID: <BDCB7642.D29B%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/24/04 3:25 PM, mIEKAL aND at memexikon at mwt.net wrote:

> The works that I find most innovative &
> interesting are not concerned with searching for anything, especially
> some sort of linear coherence that could be condensed into cliffnotes.

I'm guessing that "linear coherence" might not die out in the near future,
given most readers' apparent taste in poetry.  But to equate linear
coherence with the reductive paraphrases of Cliffsnotes is just silly.

Finnegan's right, of course, that there's been a surge in interest lately in
poetry that's elliptical, fragmented, self-erasing, and otherwise
anti-linear.  Whether very much of it will persist in the anthologies,
course syllabi, and critical esteem of the future, well, it seems too soon
to tell.  

But rest assured that at such time as Bruce Andrews is widely enough taught
in American universities and high schools, there *will* be Cliffsnotes on
him, as there currently are on the semi-linear and partly-coherent poems of
Eliot, Pound, and Williams.  Stein hasn't yet made the Cliffsnotes cut; H.
D. has.  Go figure:  supply and demand.

An older example:  

"Whitman?s consciousness of the inadequacy of language to express the full
extent of his thought is revealed in this poem. He says that he can 'advance
a moment only to wheel and hurry back in the darkness.' He is aware of the
philosophical and metaphysical imperfections of his poetic self. His
expectation that future poets will interpret his work for posterity clearly
shows that he views the poet as a seer and a builder of the bridge spanning
time."

"The philosophical and metaphysical imperfections of his poetic
self"--bingo.  What a handy critical time-capsule of literary attitudes
prominent in our moment.  Amusing to think of other names plugged in there
in place of Whitman--Silliman?  Hejinian?--in the unimagined future.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Nov 25 15:00:50 2004
From: hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk (gbemi tijani-mst)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:00:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Pentium Profile-a poetic harvest in a cybercafe by
	gbemi tijani mst
Message-ID: <20041125200050.28529.qmail@web26010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


 p.s.comments to poetry digest series attached please

            A Pentium profile...

            by Gbemi Tijani-MST

 

Splendid

in the box office

you'll find her 

Tender in ticketing 

you'll like her

Slim fit in her

 skimpy skirt

you'll find her...

Very rarely you 'll 

find her garulous

you'll lick her grace...

Split second after her shift job

you'll find her deeply 

lost in the cyberspace

Now & then freed 

from the honeycomb office

skimpier - you'll find her 

chatting away!

Very rarely you 'll find her

 in kulotte faded jeans

Surely you'll find her 

in  Bruce Lee jeans  pant!

As a born- again bona fide 

would've dressed...

 

Deep in the essence of respectability

you 'll find her helping her boss -

even as over dash ?

Truly delightful  as  a cyber staff

you'll see her splendour in punctuality

Sure in the flowing of cash -

you'll find her a loyal funnel

except there's no  fully installed system 

Especially for the choosy me-though she can fix 

any system for her profane 

or cherubic chats-who knows ?

Her subscriptions' affinity or 

chat profile or visual

foci-whether libido or

 CNN advertorials but never the horror movies

Next day you'll see her quietness-yes

her characteristic tranquil 

Paradoxically unmistakable ...

 

dont dare shred her attention off the booty

Surfing time she 's bent to invest all her hilarity..

She can't be distracted for a second

you must be joking if you try .Be her pal

 

 don't try to...She 's really fanatical on chat time ..

She 's free now! She's  fecund then 

with avalanche of soliloquy peculiar to Jories Graham of 

the Sorbonne and

& Harvard fame .She's at the heights of her freedom

Of course deep in her harvest of diligence...

i like her deep love against indolence 

Sure her pelvic must have a pentium profile

Ask the Superior Potter 

 how He fearfully & fancifully made her daughter

 

No regret finding her 

No regret browsing her ...

Gbemi/26/11/04pf.p.mst.dfi.dfj.3-5am

poetry matter global exchange,planet forum

 

christ access global fellowship lens only

( expanding believers' horizon for amity in Christ

exchanging RHEMA-the living word in multimedia format 

popularising the word as a faithful guarantor 

 for tackling problems & shedding light 

to seemingly difficult situations  or mysterious

 circumstances through scriptural application 

..Or again by volunteer-counselling to many anonymous 

folks/believers in search of genuine discipleship 

agape love in christian brotherhood  as preached by Christ

mst/26/11/04 LOVE -THE- WORD FELLOWSHIP re-echoed

 

 

 

 

 

Halleluyah i heard her homming a tune but who knows whether inspired by 

The Bright Morning Star-His Majesty-King Of Kings,Lord of Lords 

Or a stylistic shout   to draw the surfing congregation to her longer pant

This Wednesday night you 'll find her buoyed as  if she'd wed the next day

Sometimes you'll find her by the longer not so dark mane

she tacitly but not so artistically tuft in the direction of her hostel- downstairs?

Committed to the duty of earning you'll rarely find her snicking in openly to this equidistant 

abode -No wonder the manager himself enjoys an engineering crucible -bigger than a poet's attic, if any-possibly cooler than her

Almighty rest room.

Deep in the essence of labour love like her boss i don't

Think she feels the flame fire of admirers -secret or open or care to post passions 

To productive ambrosial hearts appreciating her gorgeous but her minimum biology...

Has she read Mary &  Martha 's deeper but contrasting flame fires they have for Jesus-

Our Lord  and Saviour? sure she'll run with BeeJay maybe with this flame fire ..

.Maybe her tomorrow 'll be more genunely hilarious

 

              p.s.      prose-poem  dedication 

                        for new-poetry digest especially

 

 for coming across as the unbeatable

,most consistently fecund reviewer

 of multi-genre poetry and allied literati.

Barely a fortnight my free subscription was confirmed to the journal by the kindness of the publishers &  my short reaction was featured -almost 56 editions have been sent to my email ad..i also find Dan SCHNEIDER?s comments very relevant to poetry review globally
np,nov14 message..

Just as poetry writing sometimes often does not announce itself to be written but could grip the writer

 resplendently harmlessly by the scruff of the neck -i never thought i 'll stabilise this cybercafe experience so early  for i 'm already inured in  business writing...The sheer variety of poetry reviewed in the NEW POETRY DIGEST is itself inspiring,empowering and delihtfully fruitful especially if there's been some mustard seedling of poetry in the reader before.To MAKE IT REALLY GLOBAL  AND ENCYCLOPEADIC the web site selects works from all ages ,countries,continents &  styless-including very abstract poets

 who rarely adopt humans as subject of poetry. 

 

  C.Blackwell  -far out in the U.S.A. was

poetically equidistant to me and my own 

 

subject of musing  is equally majestic 

as Maxwell's beloved  counterpart flame

 

that was glowingly eulogised as 

a daring darling in his poem

 "i 'll  always be the one you love/

you 'll always be the one i love)

DRUM REVUE,SPRING -SUMMER FALL2004

Also for lovers of poetry in its diverse gaiety 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and digesters too be it as spirit lifting inevitables or benign religiousity or as meaty stuff not as bittersweet as political lampoons ,Wole Soyinka's dramatic ,shakespearean poetry,Chaucer,the Canterbury tales,Danie Abse,the medical poems,Edward Morgan 's inclusives -Hold Hands Among The Atoms,A Trilogy Of plays on the Life Of Jesus Christ,A Love & a life- 50 poems,Tanikawa Shuntaro-Japan's extraordinarily versatile poet who also revulsed the intense intellectuality imposed by his father,a distinguished philosopher

associated with Hosei & Doshisha ivory towers in postwar Japan...and again what of the world of prize -fighting poets locally here in Nigeria & the Nobel world!? To me poetry   is a tool ,a spanner,a soul booster ,a spirit lifteras well as a raw material,fodder  for unfettered expressionIt couldn't be have been hyperbolical that most poets use the craft that they know so well & have read so little of the world treasury of poetry across the ages  that they coul at least build a castle or gallery of their musings-.Palpably the 21stc poets are luckier?-for the

 possibilities of multimedia poetry-lyric poetry,love poetry,celluloid convertible poetry,psalmic poems,orature,oriental poetry,American poetry,English ,Canadian,African poetry,African-American,Arabian,Carribean poetry & modern forms of these  works that are coming in avalanche partly beause of globalisation, increasing population of writers,enthusiasts ,sophistication facilitated by the internet,more & more raw as wellas ecological issues provoking poetry

IT'S JUST APPROPRIATE that new -poetry digest has found a world-wide literary niche to delight& display the minds  & marvels and anguish ,reflections,urgings,piety,sagacity of civilized antiquity of humankind

please keep feeding with poetry...for peace of the inner permission from within -not of uncontrolled turmoil...Thanks  to the poems that have ever influenced me profoundly till date plus those that have  wonderfully wooed or appealed  to ladies of my early attraction-the DARK & LOVELY ,the rudy & the resplendent.That was time of stark impetuosity,innocence,fake or split maturity,actually unbalanced reciprocity..Badbye to this era & forgivable pemissivenes. Pure aesthetic affinity   AND RELATED BANTER RULE our romantic  adventures and ,writings ,student journalism  activities,press clubs here or there-unlike now that Divine Poetry have re-pyramidise,trivialised those prosaic values of boyish times...NOW -ALTRUSITC VERSIFICATION and learning is in vogue for my like -minds ,tendencies,gravitations ,questing,surfing priorities before libido-laden literature ...Truly no great literature or poetry is devoid of love or loving characters .Evn war novels or poetry are not excempted .Lament is
 ubiquitous in novella,the novel,trilogies,plays,James Clavel series. Comedies & tragedies intertwined are essentially designed to be bitttersweet by the poet or writer-often times a good poet also makes a good novelist however..MST26/11/04.7.50AM 

each discovers his/her facile gift or versatility 

 

 


		
---------------------------------
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From hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Nov 26 07:50:25 2004
From: hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk (gbemi tijani-mst)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:50:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5,
	Issue 77-reply by better edited copy only THANKS
In-Reply-To: <200411251955.iAPJtEAn003125@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20041126125025.38496.qmail@web26008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


 P.s 

i was so tired i couldn't proof read nor edit the copy of 24/11/04 i rushed to your busy journal staff...here 's a better copy for the record only ...Continue the globally productive endeavour-      I   was also bouyed by David Grahams     cliffnotes  commentary on linear coherence     thus confirming my earlier but not so presumptous remark that good poetry availed in diverse genre from fecund minds and marvelous love for the arts generally & tacit reverence for the SUPERIOR ARTIST-THAT  TRANSCEDENTAL POTTER -variously awarded many names by His beings on planet earth/universe inclusive   should be a treasury of love and healings of hilarity lack....LONG LIVE THE NEW POETRY DIGEST  before rapture  depending on poetry's clientele...

gbemi tijani mst26/11/04

 

            A Pentium Profile...

            by gbemi tijani-mst            

 

 

Splendid

in the box office

you'll find her 

Tender in ticketing 

you'll like her

Slim fit in her

 skimpy skirt

you'll find her...

Very rarely

 you 'll 

find her garrulous-

you'll lick her grace.

Split second

after her shift job

you'll find her deeply 

lost in the cyberspace

Now & then freed 

from the honeycomb office

skimpier - you'll find her 

chatting away!

Very rarely you 'll find her

 in kulotte faded jeans

Surely you'll find her 

in  Bruce Lee jeans  pant!

As a born- again bona fide 

would've dressed...

 

Deep in the essence of respectability

you 'll find her helping her boss -

even as over dash !

Truly delightful  as  a cyber staff

you'll see her splendour in punctuality

Sure in the flowing of cash -

you'll find her a loyal funnel

except there's no  fully installed system 

Especially for the choosy me-though she can fix 

any system for her profane or cherubic chats-

who knows her subscriptions' affinity , 

chat profile or visual

foci-whether libido or

 CNN advertorials but never the horror movies.

Next day you'll see her quietness

Yes- her characteristic tranquil nature

Paradoxically unmistakable about her

 

Don?t dare shred her attention off the booty

Surfing time she 's bent to invest all her hilarity

She can't be distracted for a second

you must be joking if you try .Just be her pal

 

 Don't try to steal or rewind her web

 She 's really fanatical on chat time ..

She 's free now-

Not in wedlock with work

 She's now fecund with 

 Avalanche of soliloquy peculiar

 To Jories Graham of the Sorbonne

 And Harvard fame .She's at the heights

 Of her freedom


 Of course,deep in her harvest of diligence...

I like her deep love against indolence 

Sure her pelvic must have a Pentium profile

Ask the Superior Potter 

 How He fearfully & fancifully made her daughter

 

No regret finding her 

No regret browsing her 

 

Gbemi/26/11/04pf.p.mst.dfi.dfj.3-5am

 

Halleluyah! I heard her humming a tune but who knows if inspired by 

The Bright Morning Star-His Majesty,King Of Kings,Lord of Lords 

Or a stylistic shout   to draw the surfing congregation to her longer pant

This Wednesday night you 'll find her buoyed as  if she'd wed the next day

Sometimes you'll find her by the longer not so dark mane

she tacitly but not so artistically tuft in the direction of her hostel- downstairs?

Committed to the duty of earning you'll rarely find her snick in openly to this equidistant 

Abode -No wonder the manager himself enjoys an engineering crucible -bigger than a poet's attic, if any-possibly cooler than her

Almighty rest room.

Deep in the essence of labour love- like her boss I don't

Think she feels the flame fire of admirers -secret or open or care to post passions 

To productive ambrosial hearts appreciating her gorgeous but  minimum biology...

Has she read Mary &  Martha 's deeper but contrasting flame fires they have for Jesus-

Our Lord  and Saviour? Sure she'll run with Bee Jay maybe with this flame fire

 Her tomorrow 'll be more genuinely hilarious

 

 

   prose-poem  dedication ( for new-poetry digest)
   especially for coming across as the unbeatable,most consistently fecund reviewer

 of multi-genre poetry and allied literati.

*Barely a fortnight my free subscription was confirmed to the journal by the kindness of the publishers &  my short reaction was featured -almost 56 editions have been sent to my email ad..

Just as poetry writing sometimes often does not announce itself to be written but could grip the writer

 resplendently harmlessly by the scruff of the neck -I never thought I'll stabilise this cybercafe experience so early  for I 'm already inured in  business writing..

*.The sheer variety of poetry reviewed in the NEW POETRY DIGEST is itself inspiring,empowering and delihtfully fruitful especially if there's been some mustard seedling of poetry in the reader before.

To MAKE IT REALLY GLOBAL  AND ENCYCLOPEADIC the web site selects works from all ages ,countries,continents &  styles-including very abstract poets that rarely adopt humans as subject of poetry. 

 C.C.Blackwell ,poet,publisher of chap books -far out in Sacramento, U.S.A. was

poetically equidistant to me especially as our subject   of musing  is equally majestic 

as his beloved  counterpart flame that was glowingly eulogised as 

a daring darling in his poem "I 'll  always be the one you love/

you 'll always be the one I love) DRUM REVUE,SPRING -SUMMER FALL2004 published by Eugene B. Redmond,Edwardville.,S.I.U.

 

   Also for lovers  and digesters of poetry in its diverse gaiet y   - be it as spirit lifting primer or benign religiousity it evokes or as meaty stuff not as bittersweet as political lampoons  or as Wole Soyinka's dramaticShakespearean poetry,Chaucer?s the Canterbury tales,Danie Abse?s medical poems,Edward Morgan 's inclusives -Hold Hands Among The Atoms,A Trilogy Of Plays on the Life Of Jesus Christ,A Love & A Life- 50 Poems.  .Tanikawa Shuntaro is  also worth remembering as an perennially impact poet .Japan's extraordinarily versatile poet who also repulsed the intense intellectuality imposed by his father,a distinguished philosopher associated with Hosei & Doshisha ivory towers in postwar Japan...and again what of the world of prize -fighting poets(controversy only) locally here in Nigeria- & the Nobel world!?
    To me poetry   is a tool ,a intellectual spanner,a soul booster ,a spirit lifter as well as a raw material,fodder  for unfettered expression It couldn't  have been hyperbolical that most poets use the craft that they know so well & have read so little of the world treasury of poetry across the ages  that should  have enabled them to  build a castle or gallery of such musings   partly as a therapy and partly as treasury of wisdom or delight or inner entertainment.
   .Palpably the 21stc poets are luckier?-for the

 possibilities of multimedia poetry-lyric poetry,love poetry,celluloid convertible poetry,psalmic poems traditional orature,oriental poetry,American poetry,English ,Canadian,African poetry,African-American,Arabian,Carribean poetry & modern forms of these  works that are coming in avalanche partly because of globalisation, increasing population of writers,enthusiasts ,sophistication facilitated by the internet,more & more synthetic,political , ecological,cultural,romantic issues provoking poetry

 

*IT'S JUST APPROPRIATE that new -poetry digest has found a world-wide literary niche to delight& display the minds  & marvels and anguish ,reflections,urgings,unequal ?ribs? protest,piety,sagacity of civilized antiquity of humankind

 

Please keep feeding with poetry...for peace of the inner permission from within -not of uncontrolled turmoil...Thanks  to the poems that have ever influenced me profoundly till date plus those that have  wonderfully wooed or appealed  to ladies of my early attraction-the DARK & LOVELY,the medicos,the poets,the secret admirers,the activists, the rudy & the resplendent.That was time of stark impetuosity,innocence,fake or split maturity,actually unbalanced reciprocity..Badbye to this era of forgivable pemissivenes. Pure aesthetic affinity   and related banter rule  our romantic  adventures,  writings and student journalism  activities,press clubs here or there-unlike now that Divine Poetry ,altruistic   communication-leadershi have re-pyramidised,trivialised those prosaic values of boyish times...NOW selflessly challenging  coupled with communally redeeming VERSIFICATION and learning is in vogue for my like -minds ,tendencies,gravitations ,questing,surfing priorities before libido-laden
 literature  invade my pentium...Truly no great literature or poetry is devoid of love or loving characters .Even war novels or poetry are not exempted .Lament is ubiquitous in novella,the novel,trilogies,plays,James Clavel series. Comedies & tragedies intertwined  and could be  functionally designed to be bitttersweet by the poet or writer.Often times a good poet also makes a good novelist. However   writer  knows  where his/her  splendid skills or virtuosity lies much more .

Each   sooner or later discovers his/her facile gift or versatility .Jim Grace ,a noted writer of lies-fictitious truths-not autobiographical confessions,possibly is prolific and successful novelist    did   grab his imaginative powers and the prosperity inherent in this  much earlier.

 

GBEMI TIJANI MST26/11/04./ email:hammerword2000 at yahoo.co.uk,bymst at yahoo.co.uk


new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

1. Cliffsnotes (David Graham)
2. A Pentium Profile-a poetic harvest in a cybercafe by gbemi
tijani mst (gbemi tijani-mst)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:45:08 -0600
From: David Graham 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cliffsnotes
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &"

Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

on 11/24/04 3:25 PM, mIEKAL aND at memexikon at mwt.net wrote:

> The works that I find most innovative &
> interesting are not concerned with searching for anything, especially
> some sort of linear coherence that could be condensed into cliffnotes.

I'm guessing that "linear coherence" might not die out in the near future,
given most readers' apparent taste in poetry. But to equate linear
coherence with the reductive paraphrases of Cliffsnotes is just silly.

Finnegan's right, of course, that there's been a surge in interest lately in
poetry that's elliptical, fragmented, self-erasing, and otherwise
anti-linear. Whether very much of it will persist in the anthologies,
course syllabi, and critical esteem of the future, well, it seems too soon
to tell. 

But rest assured that at such time as Bruce Andrews is widely enough taught
in American universities and high schools, there *will* be Cliffsnotes on
him, as there currently are on the semi-linear and partly-coherent poems of
Eliot, Pound, and Williams. Stein hasn't yet made the Cliffsnotes cut; H.
D. has. Go figure: supply and demand.

An older example: 

"Whitman?s consciousness of the inadequacy of language to express the full
extent of his thought is revealed in this poem. He says that he can 'advance
a moment only to wheel and hurry back in the darkness.' He is aware of the
philosophical and metaphysical imperfections of his poetic self. His
expectation that future poets will interpret his work for posterity clearly
shows that he views the poet as a seer and a builder of the bridge spanning
time."

"The philosophical and metaphysical imperfections of his poetic
self"--bingo. What a handy critical time-capsule of literary attitudes
prominent in our moment. Amusing to think of other names plugged in there
in place of Whitman--Silliman? Hejinian?--in the unimagined future.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:00:50 +0000 (GMT)
From: gbemi tijani-mst 
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Pentium Profile-a poetic harvest in a
cybercafe by gbemi tijani mst
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Message-ID: <20041125200050.28529.qmail at web26010.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


p.s.comments to poetry digest series attached please

A Pentium profile...

by Gbemi Tijani-MST



Splendid

in the box office

you'll find her 

Tender in ticketing 

you'll like her

Slim fit in her

skimpy skirt

you'll find her...

Very rarely you 'll 

find her garulous

you'll lick her grace...

Split second after her shift job

you'll find her deeply 

lost in the cyberspace

Now & then freed 

from the honeycomb office

skimpier - you'll find her 

chatting away!

Very rarely you 'll find her

in kulotte faded jeans

Surely you'll find her 

in Bruce Lee jeans pant!

As a born- again bona fide 

would've dressed...



Deep in the essence of respectability

you 'll find her helping her boss -

even as over dash ?

Truly delightful as a cyber staff

you'll see her splendour in punctuality

Sure in the flowing of cash -

you'll find her a loyal funnel

except there's no fully installed system 

Especially for the choosy me-though she can fix 

any system for her profane 

or cherubic chats-who knows ?

Her subscriptions' affinity or 

chat profile or visual

foci-whether libido or

CNN advertorials but never the horror movies

Next day you'll see her quietness-yes

her characteristic tranquil 

Paradoxically unmistakable ...



dont dare shred her attention off the booty

Surfing time she 's bent to invest all her hilarity..

She can't be distracted for a second

you must be joking if you try .Be her pal



don't try to...She 's really fanatical on chat time ..

She 's free now! She's fecund then 

with avalanche of soliloquy peculiar to Jories Graham of 

the Sorbonne and

& Harvard fame .She's at the heights of her freedom

Of course deep in her harvest of diligence...

i like her deep love against indolence 

Sure her pelvic must have a pentium profile

Ask the Superior Potter 

how He fearfully & fancifully made her daughter



No regret finding her 

No regret browsing her ...

Gbemi/26/11/04pf.p.mst.dfi.dfj.3-5am

poetry matter global exchange,planet forum



christ access global fellowship lens only

( expanding believers' horizon for amity in Christ

exchanging RHEMA-the living word in multimedia format 

popularising the word as a faithful guarantor 

for tackling problems & shedding light 

to seemingly difficult situations or mysterious

circumstances through scriptural application 

..Or again by volunteer-counselling to many anonymous 

folks/believers in search of genuine discipleship 

agape love in christian brotherhood as preached by Christ

mst/26/11/04 LOVE -THE- WORD FELLOWSHIP re-echoed











Halleluyah i heard her homming a tune but who knows whether inspired by 

The Bright Morning Star-His Majesty-King Of Kings,Lord of Lords 

Or a stylistic shout to draw the surfing congregation to her longer pant

This Wednesday night you 'll find her buoyed as if she'd wed the next day

Sometimes you'll find her by the longer not so dark mane

she tacitly but not so artistically tuft in the direction of her hostel- downstairs?

Committed to the duty of earning you'll rarely find her snicking in openly to this equidistant 

abode -No wonder the manager himself enjoys an engineering crucible -bigger than a poet's attic, if any-possibly cooler than her

Almighty rest room.

Deep in the essence of labour love like her boss i don't

Think she feels the flame fire of admirers -secret or open or care to post passions 

To productive ambrosial hearts appreciating her gorgeous but her minimum biology...

Has she read Mary & Martha 's deeper but contrasting flame fires they have for Jesus-

Our Lord and Saviour? sure she'll run with BeeJay maybe with this flame fire ..

.Maybe her tomorrow 'll be more genunely hilarious



p.s. prose-poem dedication 

for new-poetry digest especially



for coming across as the unbeatable

,most consistently fecund reviewer

of multi-genre poetry and allied literati.

Barely a fortnight my free subscription was confirmed to the journal by the kindness of the publishers & my short reaction was featured -almost 56 editions have been sent to my email ad..i also find Dan SCHNEIDER?s comments very relevant to poetry review globally
np,nov14 message..

Just as poetry writing sometimes often does not announce itself to be written but could grip the writer

resplendently harmlessly by the scruff of the neck -i never thought i 'll stabilise this cybercafe experience so early for i 'm already inured in business writing...The sheer variety of poetry reviewed in the NEW POETRY DIGEST is itself inspiring,empowering and delihtfully fruitful especially if there's been some mustard seedling of poetry in the reader before.To MAKE IT REALLY GLOBAL AND ENCYCLOPEADIC the web site selects works from all ages ,countries,continents & styless-including very abstract poets

who rarely adopt humans as subject of poetry. 



C.Blackwell -far out in the U.S.A. was

poetically equidistant to me and my own 



subject of musing is equally majestic 

as Maxwell's beloved counterpart flame



that was glowingly eulogised as 

a daring darling in his poem

"i 'll always be the one you love/

you 'll always be the one i love)

DRUM REVUE,SPRING -SUMMER FALL2004

Also for lovers of poetry in its diverse gaiety 



















and digesters too be it as spirit lifting inevitables or benign religiousity or as meaty stuff not as bittersweet as political lampoons ,Wole Soyinka's dramatic ,shakespearean poetry,Chaucer,the Canterbury tales,Danie Abse,the medical poems,Edward Morgan 's inclusives -Hold Hands Among The Atoms,A Trilogy Of plays on the Life Of Jesus Christ,A Love & a life- 50 poems,Tanikawa Shuntaro-Japan's extraordinarily versatile poet who also revulsed the intense intellectuality imposed by his father,a distinguished philosopher

associated with Hosei & Doshisha ivory towers in postwar Japan...and again what of the world of prize -fighting poets locally here in Nigeria & the Nobel world!? To me poetry is a tool ,a spanner,a soul booster ,a spirit lifteras well as a raw material,fodder for unfettered expressionIt couldn't be have been hyperbolical that most poets use the craft that they know so well & have read so little of the world treasury of poetry across the ages that they coul at least build a castle or gallery of their musings-.Palpably the 21stc poets are luckier?-for the

possibilities of multimedia poetry-lyric poetry,love poetry,celluloid convertible poetry,psalmic poems,orature,oriental poetry,American poetry,English ,Canadian,African poetry,African-American,Arabian,Carribean poetry & modern forms of these works that are coming in avalanche partly beause of globalisation, increasing population of writers,enthusiasts ,sophistication facilitated by the internet,more & more raw as wellas ecological issues provoking poetry

IT'S JUST APPROPRIATE that new -poetry digest has found a world-wide literary niche to delight& display the minds & marvels and anguish ,reflections,urgings,piety,sagacity of civilized antiquity of humankind

please keep feeding with poetry...for peace of the inner permission from within -not of uncontrolled turmoil...Thanks to the poems that have ever influenced me profoundly till date plus those that have wonderfully wooed or appealed to ladies of my early attraction-the DARK & LOVELY ,the rudy & the resplendent.That was time of stark impetuosity,innocence,fake or split maturity,actually unbalanced reciprocity..Badbye to this era & forgivable pemissivenes. Pure aesthetic affinity AND RELATED BANTER RULE our romantic adventures and ,writings ,student journalism activities,press clubs here or there-unlike now that Divine Poetry have re-pyramidise,trivialised those prosaic values of boyish times...NOW -ALTRUSITC VERSIFICATION and learning is in vogue for my like -minds ,tendencies,gravitations ,questing,surfing priorities before libido-laden literature ...Truly no great literature or poetry is devoid of love or loving characters .Evn war novels or poetry are not excempted .!
Lament is
ubiquitous in novella,the novel,trilogies,plays,James Clavel series. Comedies & tragedies intertwined are essentially designed to be bitttersweet by the poet or writer-often times a good poet also makes a good novelist however..MST26/11/04.7.50AM 

each discovers his/her facile gift or versatility 







---------------------------------
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End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 5, Issue 77
*****************************************


		
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From scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au  Fri Nov 26 08:57:09 2004
From: scrimple101 at yahoo.com.au (robert lane)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:57:09 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] seeking submissions for "malleable jangle"
Message-ID: <20041126135709.10176.qmail@web51408.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello, the blogspot of Robert Lane has very recently
been updated.
Why not take a look?
http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/
All the best, Robert Lane.

=====
Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/ 
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au 
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings


Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 26 14:42:14 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 13:42:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal query
Message-ID: <BDCCE336.D2D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Today's Verse Daily has an interesting poem by Anthony Lacavaro, "Botanists
Who Feel Excluded Rejoice"

http://www.versedaily.com/

Does anyone know if the structure he's working in has a name?  Or perhaps
it's simply a nonce form?
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 26 15:03:07 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:03:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] translations of A. Ibsen's poems
Message-ID: <000a01c4d3f2$f31088f0$f07c3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

For those who understand some Italian, I just put on the Poets' Corner some poems by Arni Ibsen I translated. Arni collapsed on November 3, it seems he is slowly recovering.
I sometimes translated a little poem and I put it on my blog, today I collected my work on the following page, 
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=871

thank you, anny


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Nov 26 15:15:27 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:15:27 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal query
References: <BDCCE336.D2D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001901c4d3f4$aca211c0$f07c3652@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thanks for this poem, I put it on my blog. If I wasn't too obvious I could
see some deconstruction being reconstructed into another context, I would
define it:

baroque deconstruction,

(no yelling against me, please)
:-)

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 8:42 PM


> Today's Verse Daily has an interesting poem by Anthony Lacavaro,
"Botanists
> Who Feel Excluded Rejoice"
>
> http://www.versedaily.com/
>
> Does anyone know if the structure he's working in has a name?  Or perhaps
> it's simply a nonce form?
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Nov 26 15:21:37 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:21:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal query
In-Reply-To: <BDCCE336.D2D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <41A74A01.24429.E25E29@localhost>

Sapphics

See Swinburne's 

Sapphics
Algernon Charles Swinburne (1837-1909)

All the night sleep came not upon my eyelids, 
Shed not dew, nor shook nor unclosed a feather, 
Yet with lips shut close and with eyes of iron 
 Stood and beheld me. 

Then to me so lying awake a vision 
Came without sleep over the seas and touched me, 
Softly touched mine eyelids and lips; and I too, 
 Full of the vision, 

Saw the white implacable Aphrodite, 
Saw the hair unbound and the feet unsandalled 
Shine as fire of sunset on western waters; 
 Saw the reluctant 

Feet, the straining plumes of the doves that drew her, 
Looking always, looking with necks reverted, 
Back to Lesbos, back to the hills whereunder 
 Shone Mitylene; 

Heard the flying feet of the Loves behind her 
Make a sudden thunder upon the waters, 
As the thunder flung from the strong unclosing 
 Wings of a great wind. 

So the goddess fled from her place, with awful 
Sound of feet and thunder of wings around her; 
While behind a clamour of singing women 
 Severed the twilight. 

Ah the singing, ah the delight, the passion! 
All the Loves wept, listening; sick with anguish, 
Stood the crowned nine Muses about Apollo; 
 Fear was upon them, 

While the tenth sang wonderful things they knew not. 
Ah the tenth, the Lesbian! the nine were silent, 
None endured the sound of her song for weeping; 
 Laurel by laurel, 

Faded all their crowns; but about her forehead, 
Round her woven tresses and ashen temples 
White as dead snow, paler than grass in summer, 
 Ravaged with kisses, 

Shone a light of fire as a crown for ever. 
Yea, almost the implacable Aphrodite 
Paused, and almost wept; such a song was that song. 
 Yea, by her name too 

Called her, saying, "Turn to me, O my Sappho;" 
Yet she turned her face from the Loves, she saw not 
Tears for laughter darken immortal eyelids, 
 Heard not about her 

Fearful fitful wings of the doves departing, 
Saw not how the bosom of Aphrodite 
Shook with weeping, saw not her shaken raiment, 
 Saw not her hands wrung; 

Saw the Lesbians kissing across their smitten 
Lutes with lips more sweet than the sound of lute-strings, 
Mouth to mouth and hand upon hand, her chosen, 
 Fairer than all men; 

Only saw the beautiful lips and fingers, 
Full of songs and kisses and little whispers, 
Full of music; only beheld among them 
 Soar, as a bird soars 

Newly fledged, her visible song, a marvel, 
Made of perfect sound and exceeding passion, 
Sweetly shapen, terrible, full of thunders, 
 Clothed with the wind's wings. 

Then rejoiced she, laughing with love, and scattered 
Roses, awful roses of holy blossom; 
Then the Loves thronged sadly with hidden faces 
 Round Aphrodite, 

Then the Muses, stricken at heart, were silent; 
Yea, the gods waxed pale; such a song was that song. 
All reluctant, all with a fresh repulsion, 
 Fled from before her. 

All withdrew long since, and the land was barren, 
Full of fruitless women and music only. 
Now perchance, when winds are assuaged at sunset, 
 Lulled at the dewfall, 

By the grey sea-side, unassuaged, unheard of, 
Unbeloved, unseen in the ebb of twilight, 
Ghosts of outcast women return lamenting, 
 Purged not in Lethe, 

Clothed about with flame and with tears, and singing 
Songs that move the heart of the shaken heaven, 
Songs that break the heart of the earth with pity, 
 Hearing, to hear them. 



On 26 Nov 2004 at 13:42, David Graham wrote:

> Today's Verse Daily has an interesting poem by Anthony Lacavaro,
> "Botanists Who Feel Excluded Rejoice"
> 
> http://www.versedaily.com/
> 
> Does anyone know if the structure he's working in has a name?  Or
> perhaps it's simply a nonce form?
> ==================================================== David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 26 15:28:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:28:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal query
References: <BDCCE336.D2D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <010a01c4d3f6$85c82b00$8fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I'd guess nonce form, David.  The play on "but to me" was quite clever, I 
thought.  More interesting to me than the poem, though, is that the site has 
a $10,000 poetry contest--with NO ENTRY FEE!

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 2:42 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal query


> Today's Verse Daily has an interesting poem by Anthony Lacavaro, 
> "Botanists
> Who Feel Excluded Rejoice"
>
> http://www.versedaily.com/
>
> Does anyone know if the structure he's working in has a name?  Or perhaps
> it's simply a nonce form?




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 26 15:33:31 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:33:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal query
In-Reply-To: <41A74A01.24429.E25E29@localhost>
Message-ID: <BDCCEF3B.D2DE%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 11/26/04 2:21 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> Sapphics
> 

Well, I've never been very good at Sapphics, myself, but I confess I don't
hear that meter in the Lacavaro; I find few lines clearly starting with
dactyls or trochees, for starters.  And can you have a 3-syllable adonic
line?

In any case I was wondering more about the patterned repetition of words
that he's playing with.


On 26 Nov 2004 at 13:42, David Graham wrote:

> Today's Verse Daily has an interesting poem by Anthony Lacavaro,
> "Botanists Who Feel Excluded Rejoice"
> 
> http://www.versedaily.com/
> 
> Does anyone know if the structure he's working in has a name?  Or
> perhaps it's simply a nonce form?
> ====================================================
David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 26 16:10:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:10:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal query
References: <BDCCEF3B.D2DE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <011701c4d3fc$4f4d45a0$8fb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>> Sapphics
>>
>
> Well, I've never been very good at Sapphics, myself, but I confess I don't
> hear that meter in the Lacavaro; I find few lines clearly starting with
> dactyls or trochees, for starters.  And can you have a 3-syllable adonic
> line?
>
> In any case I was wondering more about the patterned repetition of words
> that he's playing with.

Yes, it would seem to me that the repetition of the three-word line at the 
end of each stanza would be the defining element.

--Bob G. 




From memexikon at mwt.net  Sat Nov 27 09:27:55 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:27:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Christopher Fritton Appears in SPIDERTANGLE the_book
In-Reply-To: <BDCB7642.D29B%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <87740706-4080-11D9-B570-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>

Christopher Fritton
Appears in
SPIDERTANGLE the_book

[the real pieces are approximately 9"x12" glass panes -
black block printing ink, handmade foam stamp print on
glass]
"some sort of pristine"
http://www.spidertangle.net/the_book/fritton.html

[so i've attached some simple visual poems
i've been making with a sewing machine and
watercolors]
"needle poem S"
http://www.spidertangle.net/the_book/fritton2.html
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 27 15:47:19 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:47:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
Message-ID: <155.44ab13fd.2eda41d7@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/24/2004 4:26:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
memexikon at mwt.net writes:

> I was responding to yr use of the word "searching", as in searching for 
> meaning or context or someway for everything to make linear sense, as 
> if that was the intended purpose.  The works that I find most 
> innovative &interesting are not concerned with searching for anything, 
> especially some sort of linear coherence that could be condensed into 
> cliffnotes.
> 
> 
> 
> >I was making
> >an observation about the number of contemporary poems
> >built as (seemingly) unrelated sequences of phrases,
> >images and observations. Using Pirandello's famous play
> >title as a little jab at the practice. The poems of this type seem
> >to be all about 'attention' to the nodes/dots, which aren't readily
> >connected or perhaps were never intended to be connected
> >in any discernible fashion.
> 
> 
> Exactly my point.  When you view a painting by an abstract artist or 
> listen to modern music, I think first impulse typically is to 
> experience the piece as it is apart from trying to figure out what it 
> "means".  Non-narrative poetry should be allowed the same sense of 
> freedom.
> 
> 

nIEKal,
I don't have any problem with non-narrative poetry, indeterminacy,
asyntatic, or whatever you got. I do question them as 'absolute values'. 
Why would one universally side with one aspect or another?...

narrative           non-narrative
whole           fragmentary 
still-point           welter
formal              casual
closed          open
personal            impersonal
etc..               etc..

'Innovative and interesting' poetry could operate in either column of 
the descriptors listed above. 

The other nagging question I have is about thoughts and ideas. 
I've never thought a poet should avoid having them. I've always 
considered the great poets to be great thinkers. I think some 
poets fear expressing their ideas and thoughts. I think some 
poets are fearful of risking thought/ideas and tend to hide behind 
technique, in this case the fragmentary style.

But it's not that the ideas should be expressed in a simple fashion.
Here's a nice quote from the review of Merrill's Collected Prose
in last week's NYTBR...
"Ideas in poetry should constitute a shifting, unutterable subtext
to be glimpsed through spangles, like the Houses of Parliament
seen upside down in the Thames."
I see the spangles....show me some Houses of Parliament.
Finnegan 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 27 17:21:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:21:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
References: <155.44ab13fd.2eda41d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d401c4d4cf$6c959e40$6bb831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

My blog entry contains a poem of mine about my persona, Poem, that's in the 
Andrews mode, I think.  I would have posted it here, but don't know how to 
do so without losing the formatting.  I give a few opinions about this kind 
of thing there, too.  They reduce to: poems should be coherent, but not too 
coherent.

--Bob G. 




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Nov 28 09:21:01 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:21:01 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] I am going down...
Message-ID: <008e01c4d555$7d7a9ae0$278e3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

                                "I am going down to the shallow edge to begin again,
                                Joseph, with a first line, with an old net, the same expedition.
                                I will study the opening horizon, the scansion's strokes of the rain,
                                to dissolve in a greater fiction than our lives, the sea, the sun."
                                                                --Derek Walcott, from "Italian Eclogues,

from: http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov 28 17:41:49 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:41:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Restored Ariel reading
Message-ID: <dc.1a96ce64.2edbae2d@aol.com>

Historic Reading of Sylvia Plath's Ariel
Featuring
Her daughter, Frieda Hughes

New York--October 27, 2004. For the first time in America, the manuscript of 
Ariel that Sylvia Plath left behind when she died in 1963 will be read 
publicly from beginning to end. Co-presented by the Academy of American Poets, Center 
for the Humanities at The Graduate Center CUNY, HarperCollins, and the Poetry 
Society of America, the reading will take place on Tuesday, November 30, at 
7:30 P.M, Proshansky Auditorium, New York City. 

Plath's daughter, Frieda Hughes, will introduce a stellar roster of poets and 
critics who will read, including Frank Bidart, Jorie Graham, Kimiko Hahn, 
Richard Howard, Katha Pollitt, and Helen Vendler. 

The reading will celebrate the publication of Ariel: The Restored Edition 
(HarperCollins, November 9, 2004), which publishes the poems according to Plath's 
original selection and arrangement. The Ariel that was published in Britain 
in 1965 and in America in 1966 was arranged by Plath's late husband, the poet 
Ted Hughes. 

"My mother had described her Ariel manuscript as beginning with the word 
'Love' and ending with the word 'Spring,' and it was clearly geared to cover the 
ground from just before the breakup of the marriage to the resolution of a new 
life, with all the agonies and furies in between," Hughes writes in her 
foreword to the new edition of her mother's most acclaimed collection. 

Readers of Plath will be able to hear for the first time the exact sequence 
and movement of the Ariel poems, including not only the well-known "Daddy" and 
"Lady Lazarus" but also the twelve poems that have been restored such as 
"Thalidomide," "Barren Woman," and "Amnesiac." Witness the incredible legacy of a 
poet described by John Updike as "a young woman who . . .rose from the dead to 
become, in ten driven years, the best, the most exciting and influential, the 
most ruthlessly original poet of her generation." 

Tickets are available at the door the evening of the reading. General 
Admission is $10; $7 for members of the Academy of American Poets and Poetry Society 
of America; and $5 for students. 

Proshansky Auditorium
Concourse Level, The Graduate Center, CUNY
365 Fifth Avenue (between 34th and 35th streets) 

To request an interview with Frieda Hughes, please contact Jane Beirn at 
212-207-7256 jane.beirn at harpercollins.com. 

The Academy of American Poets is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization founded 
in 1934 to foster appreciation for contemporary poetry and to support American 
poets at all stages of their careers. For more information on the Academy and 
its programs, visit www.poets.org.

 
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From memexikon at mwt.net  Sun Nov 28 17:55:24 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:55:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
In-Reply-To: <155.44ab13fd.2eda41d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <96FDB19E-4190-11D9-B570-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>


On Saturday, November 27, 2004, at 02:47 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

>
> nIEKal,

that's a new one


> I don't have any problem with non-narrative poetry, indeterminacy,
> asyntatic, or whatever you got. I do question them as 'absolute 
> values'.
> Why would one universally side with one aspect or another?...

No clue.  Why would one even create binaries except for the sake of 
discussion?  I know in my own work, these kinds of strategies are only 
an afterthought, they don't inform the creation of a work.  bpNichol 
mentions borderblur often & this notion is much closer to being useful, 
for me, in my own activities.



>
> narrative?????? non-narrative
> whole????????? fragmentary
> still-point?????????? welter
> formal????????? casual
> closed???????? open
> personal??????????? impersonal
> etc..??????????? etc..
>


I like how etc is the opposite of etc.  Makes sense.  I'd like to see 
this same chart with 20 gradients between the "opposites".





> 'Innovative and interesting' poetry could operate in either column of
> the descriptors listed above.

Absolutely, or could exist in spam, or graffiti, or mathematics texts, 
or Tocharian glyphs.


>
> The other nagging question I have is about thoughts and ideas.
> I've never thought a poet should avoid having them. I've always
> considered the great poets to be great thinkers. I think some
> poets fear expressing their ideas and thoughts. I think some
> poets are fearful of risking thought/ideas and tend to hide behind
> technique, in this case the fragmentary style.

If I'm reading you right, you're suggesting that something like the 
Bruce Andrew's poems that were posted at the beginning of this thread 
are lacking ideas & thoughts, a technique masking Bruce's fear of 
expression?



>
> But it's not that the ideas should be expressed in a simple fashion.
> Here's a nice quote from the review of Merrill's Collected Prose
> in last week's NYTBR...
> "Ideas in poetry should constitute a shifting, unutterable subtext
> to be glimpsed through spangles, like the Houses of Parliament
> seen upside down in the Thames."
> I see the spangles....show me some Houses of Parliament.

Haven't read Merrill's poems since I was in college so I can't really 
respond to this directly, but I think the assumption in your post is 
that fragmentary, asyntactic, non-representational, disembodied 
language can't express ideas.   For example, when I hear someone 
perform Schwitter's Ursonate (such as Christian Bok), Im filled with 
ideas, some abstract, some musical, some linguistic, some simple.  
Everyone's experience of a reading such as this is bound to be 
different, there will be no consensus as to the "meaning", or the 
"ideas" contained therein, yet compositionally there is a lot of 
material there, especially if one is familiar with how it reads on the 
page.

mIEKAL




24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND

http://www.joglars.org
http://www.spidertangle.net
http://www.xexoxial.org
http://www.neologisms.us
http://www.dreamtimevillage.org

"The word is the first stereotype."  Isidore Isou, 1947.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 28 18:12:06 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Restored Ariel reading
References: <dc.1a96ce64.2edbae2d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c4d59f$b01c2f50$94b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

whoopie.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 28 18:29:01 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:29:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Miroslav Holub,
	"Teaching About Diseases"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMECBJGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Teaching About Diseases

Puppet diseases are tiny and thread-like, with fune-
real fur coats and huge ears. And little clawed feet.

There is no fever. Just sawdust sifting from the sleeves.

Diarrhea is like intellectual melancholy.

Irregular heartbeat is like the tick of deathwatch bee-
tles.

It doesn't look like a disease, just attentive listening,
which falls over the eyes like a hood.

When the strings break, that's the end. Just a carved
chunk of wood on the bank of the river Lethe. And at
the crossing, the little green man signalling: Walk!

Chin up, shouts the puppet-master. We'll play Mac-
beth. Everyone kicks the bucket in that play anyway.
And the remaining puppets line up obediently back-
stage and pour out water from their little booties.

--Miroslav Holub

tr. David Young and Dana H?bov?
fr. *Intensive Care: Selected and New Poems*
[Oberlin, Ohio: Oberlin College Press, 1996]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov 28 19:34:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:34:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Bruce Andrews, "Escape Hatch"
Message-ID: <85.1bb0321a.2edbc8b3@aol.com>

mIEKAL,

Sorry, I didn't mean to mess with your name...fast loppy
typing is my only excuse. 

The two-column ledger of binaries was meant to simplify, 
and I agree that there are many grades between and 
perhaps a few degrees outside the 'poles' as well.

Bruce Andrews was a bad choice for an example in first place. 
As an early & important language poet, I'd agree his work is full 
of 'ideas', so to speak. No always immediately in evidence, or upon 
which any two randomly chosen readers might reasonably concur, 
but there are ideas behind the practice of such writing, as the 
critical writing which is coextensive with this practice makes a case 
for, anyway. Though meaning is not an important factor in the writing 
itself.

I do have some qualms about wildly disparate understandings/readings
of a single text. This of course happens even with very simple texts;
but, generally speaking, there is some kind of 'uneasy concord' of
understanding for most of the poems I value. If the text purports 
to have "a big idea' behind it, foregrounded or as subtext, then I think
we can expect most heads will get around it in a fashion the author
would approve of. My interest in authors with nothing on their minds,
and no interest in readerly understanding, admittedly, wanes quickly.
He/she don't care...then me neither.

Earlier you mentioned music and abstract art. I'm much more inclined
to those for two reasons: The resources of painting (so physical and 
chromatic) 
and the resources of music (the aural experience being pure or always 
abstract
per se) are much more attractive inherently. A note/chord, a color or 
brushstroke, 
will engage me more sensually than black print on a white page...even when 
the letters/words are striving toward a concrete/visual presence. Secondly, 
language, which is so inextricably tied to meaning-making, seems so much out 
of its element when it tries to subvert meaning overtly or veers away
from coherent utterance. It's akin to a watercolorist painting with only 
water: sans pigment, using only the thin clear liquid base to create effects.

I'm very engaged by Schwitter's collages/assemblages...'merz' is 
an important concept for me. I've got a book with some of his dadaist poetry 
hereabouts. I need to take a look again before I say more re his literary 
works. But I fear they'll be a paler part of his artistic project.
Finnegan









In a message dated 11/28/2004 5:55:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
memexikon at mwt.net writes:

> On Saturday, November 27, 2004, at 02:47 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> >nIEKal,
> 
> that's a new one
> 
> 
> >I don't have any problem with non-narrative poetry, indeterminacy,
> >asyntatic, or whatever you got. I do question them as 'absolute 
> >values'.
> >Why would one universally side with one aspect or another?...
> 
> No clue.  Why would one even create binaries except for the sake of 
> discussion?  I know in my own work, these kinds of strategies are only 
> an afterthought, they don't inform the creation of a work.  bpNichol 
> mentions borderblur often &this notion is much closer to being useful, 
> for me, in my own activities.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >narrative       non-narrative
> >whole          fragmentary
> >still-point           welter
> >formal          casual
> >closed         open
> >personal            impersonal
> >etc..            etc..
> >
> 
> 
> I like how etc is the opposite of etc.  Makes sense.  I'd like to see 
> this same chart with 20 gradients between the "opposites".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >'Innovative and interesting' poetry could operate in either column of
> >the descriptors listed above.
> 
> Absolutely, or could exist in spam, or graffiti, or mathematics texts, 
> or Tocharian glyphs.
> 
> 
> >
> >The other nagging question I have is about thoughts and ideas.
> >I've never thought a poet should avoid having them. I've always
> >considered the great poets to be great thinkers. I think some
> >poets fear expressing their ideas and thoughts. I think some
> >poets are fearful of risking thought/ideas and tend to hide behind
> >technique, in this case the fragmentary style.
> 
> If I'm reading you right, you're suggesting that something like the 
> Bruce Andrew's poems that were posted at the beginning of this thread 
> are lacking ideas &thoughts, a technique masking Bruce's fear of 
> expression?
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >But it's not that the ideas should be expressed in a simple fashion.
> >Here's a nice quote from the review of Merrill's Collected Prose
> >in last week's NYTBR...
> >"Ideas in poetry should constitute a shifting, unutterable subtext
> >to be glimpsed through spangles, like the Houses of Parliament
> >seen upside down in the Thames."
> >I see the spangles....show me some Houses of Parliament.
> 
> Haven't read Merrill's poems since I was in college so I can't really 
> respond to this directly, but I think the assumption in your post is 
> that fragmentary, asyntactic, non-representational, disembodied 
> language can't express ideas.   For example, when I hear someone 
> perform Schwitter's Ursonate (such as Christian Bok), Im filled with 
> ideas, some abstract, some musical, some linguistic, some simple.  
> Everyone's experience of a reading such as this is bound to be 
> different, there will be no consensus as to the "meaning", or the 
> "ideas" contained therein, yet compositionally there is a lot of 
> material there, especially if one is familiar with how it reads on the 
> page.
> 

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From Thom424 at aol.com  Sun Nov 28 20:19:07 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:19:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Don Paterson at THE GUARDIAN
Message-ID: <ee.7398366.2edbd30b@aol.com>

Sending along this longish article from THE GUARDIAN. The url wasn't getting 
me there, so here's the full article. Sorry for jamming your mailboxes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited Books 
site, go to http://books.guardian.co.uk

RHYME & REASON
There are too many populists, amateur versifiers and obscurantists. Don 
Paterson urges us to leave poetry to the professionals

Don Paterson
Saturday November 06 2004
The Guardian


Poetry is a dark art, a form of magic, because it tries to change the way we 
perceive the world. That is to say that it aims to make the texture of our 
perception malleable. It does so by surreptitious and devious means, by seeding 
and planting things in the memory and imagination of the reader with such force 
and insidious originality that they cannot be deprogrammed.

A poem is just a little machine for remembering itself; a poem makes a fetish 
of its memorability. It does this because the one unique thing about our art 
is that it can be carried in your head in its original state, intact and 
perfect. We merely recall a string quartet or a film or a painting - actually, at a 
neurological level, we're only recalling a memory of it; but our memory of 
the poem is the poem. Its most primitive (and so we can probably assume its 
earliest) function is as a system for the simple storage and retrieval of 
information, and sometimes its concealment; the poets of certain nomadic Saharan 
tribes memorise the location of the waterholes, in way that will not betray them to 
others. No wonder that poetry, so deeply connected to the world and our own 
survival in it, was quickly invested with magical properties, and soon took the 
form of the spell, the riddle, the curse, the blessing, the prayer. They 
are--and poems remain - invocatory forms. Prose evokes; the well-chosen word 
describes the thing. But poetry invokes; the memorable word conjures its subject 
from the air.?

Poetry is also an occult science but I think the language of our science, 
verse composition, has been lost - or at least disfigured to the point of 
uselessness. Poets no longer feel confidently expert in their own subject. The 
language of academic versification studies and "poetics" is only appropriate for 
something that describes the result, not the working practice; the noun, not the 
living verb. This language always makes the error of talking about the messy, 
insane process of verse-making as if it were a clean operation. Our business 
is not with rhyme, but with rhyming; not with metaphor but with metaphorising, 
the active transformation of the image; there is as much difference between 
the two as there is between checking a watch and building one.?

Such description as exists of the real composing? process is couched in the 
language of the beginner's workshop, with its nonsensical talk of 
"show-not-tell" and "good subject matter"--or the language of self-help. (Incidentally, the 
systematic interrogation of the unconscious, which is part of the serious 
practice of poetry, is the worst form of self-help you could possibly devise. 
There is a reason why poets enjoy the highest statistical incidence of mental 
illness among all the professions. Your unconscious is your unconscious for an 
awfully good reason. If you want to help yourself,? read a poem, but don't write 
one.)?

Only plumbers can plumb, roofers roof and drummers drum; only poets can write 
poetry. Restoring the science of verse-making would restore our 
self-certainty in this matter; the main result of such an empowerment would be the 
rediscovery of our ambition, our risk, and our relevance, through the confidence to 
insist on the poem as possessing an intrinsic cultural value, of absolutely no 
use other than for its simple reading .?

"Risk" needs some redefinition. To take a risk in a poem is not to write a big
 sweary outburst about how dreadful the war in Iraq is, even if you are the 
world's greatest living playwright. This kind of poetry is really nothing but a 
kind of inverse sentimentalism--that's to say by the time it reaches the 
page, it's less real anger than a celebration of one's own strength of feeling. 
Since it tries to provoke an emotion of which its target readers are already in 
high possession, it will change no one's mind about anything; more to the 
point,? anyone? can do it. Neither is "risk" the deployment of disjunctive syntax, 
crazy punctuation or wee allusions to Heisenberg and Lacan; because anyone 
can do that, too. Risk, of the sort that makes readers feel genuinely 
uncomfortable, excited, open to suggestion, vulnerable to?reprogramming, complicit in 
the creative business of their self-transformation--is quite different.?

Real danger flirts with the things we most dread as poets. Real risk is 
writing with real feeling, as Frost did, while somehow avoiding sentimentality, or 
simplicity, as Cavafy did, and somehow avoiding artlessness; or daring to be 
prophetic, as Rilke did, and miraculously avoiding pretentiousness; or writing 
with real originality, as Dickinson did, while somehow avoiding cliche; (since 
for a reader to be astonished by the original phrase, it must already be 
partly familiar to them, if they are to register the transformation; a point 
fatally misunderstood by every generation of the avant-garde, which is one reason 
they often seem stylistically interchangeable). The narrowest of these paths, 
though, the poets' beautiful tightrope-walk, is the one between sense and 
mystery - to make one, while revealing the other. As our friend Michael Donaghy 
did.?

Our problem is that the roles of poet and reader have become blurred; on the 
one hand we have the populists, who have made the fatal error of thinking that 
feeling and practice form a continuum. They infantilise our art: chicken-soup 
anthologies full of lousy poems; silly workshop exercises where you write a 
poem in the voice of your socks; ultra-"accessible" poetry programs, where the 
general public text-in poems to be read out on the show.?

On the other hand we have the Postmoderns, who have made the fatal error of 
thinking that? theory? and practice form a continuum. They don't: this foolish 
levelling of the playing field in favour of the merely clever has led to an 
art-practice with no effective internal critique. Genuine talents such as, say, 
Tony Lopez and Denise Riley, working recognisably within the English and 
European lyric traditions, are drowned by the chorus of articulate but 
fundamentally talentless poet-commentators. Their situation is analogous to British free 
improvisation in the 80s, where one could hear great jazz virtuosi like Evan 
Parker and Derek Bailey sharing a stage with people who had barely mastered the 
rudiments of their instruments - simply because the valorisation of talent? 
itself was felt to be elitist and undemocratic.?

The populists, on one side, purvey a kind of straight-faced recognition 
comedy, and have no need either for originality or epiphany. On the other side we 
have the avant-garde so desperate for transcendence they see it everywhere: 
they are fatally in the grip of an adolescent sublime, where absolutely anything 
will blow your mind, as your mind, in its state of recrudescent virginity, is 
permanently desperate to be blown. The Norwich phone book or a set of log 
tables would serve them as well as their Prynne, in whom they seem able to detect 
as many shades of mindblowing confusion as Buddhists do the absolute.?

At the end of the day, you cannot use the designation "poet" without 
introducing the highly undemocratic idea of Natural Talent. Poets are people with an?? 
unusual gift for the composition of verses. End of definition. Our 
disagreement, of course, is over what constitutes good verse.?

But if you want true "access" to poetry ... remove all the mediators! Those 
self-appointed popularisers, who, by insisting on nothing but dumb sense, have 
alienated poetry's natural intelligent and literate constituency; and those 
exegetes in whose self-interest it is to keep poetry as incomprehensible as 
possible, that they might project nothing into it but their own wholly novel and 
ingenious interpretations.?

It's important that poets remember that our first perception of the world is? 
already a misinterpretation. Incarnated souls all get off to variations on 
much the same bad start (especially boys, those sobbing vessels of karma, whose 
first act is to? penetrate their mother) and are given only the perceptual 
equivalent of a pinhole camera through which they are supposed to experience the 
universe. We are born, then, into a condition of metaphor, a metaphor really 
being a contextual restriction of sense. We are attuned only to a small part of 
the electromagnetic spectrum, and the universe our senses conjure up for us 
is not the universe. We know that the ears of the bat, the eyes of the bee, the 
nose of the dog, the sensitivity of the bird to magnetic field (to say 
nothing of the bird's infinite angles of approach to what it beholds, unlike the 
three ways we have to walk home) shape a perception of the world wholly different 
from our own, yet no more or less true.?

But having fallen into a mammalian dream of the universe, we fall slowly into 
a much deeper? human dream. The human dream is one of all things first 
recognised, and then named, in accordance with their human utility, translated and 
metaphorised into the human realm. It is just as flimsy a consensual reality as 
money.?

I'm an admirer of the Post-Freudian theorist Ignacio Matte Blanco, and a 
travesty of his position is this: when we were born, everything was pretty much 
everything else. The breast was you, your mother the breast, and the back garden 
your mother, the world was an absolute and indivisible unity. There was 
nothing to tell you otherwise. This perception is atemporal, since the perception 
of the? passing of time is dependent first on the perception of difference, of 
an asymmetrical and consecutive series of events, which we did not then know.?

This sense of unity was gradually overlayed with the perception of discrete, 
causally successive and asymmetrical things and events. With the acquisition 
of language, this goes into overdrive. Now here's the important part; this new 
perception does? not refute the observations of the first, but is necessary 
accommodation of the fact of our consciousness. That is to say in the fall into 
language, asymmetry, the observation that we are other than the breast, the 
mother and the back garden, the moon, the sea, does? not occur at the expense of 
that first knowledge, of everything as everything else, of a unity; this 
continues running, mostly under the limen of our consciousness, as a kind of 
spiritual DOS programme. Why? Because it was? true .?

This is easy enough to verify. Stripped of their human presence?? and 
meaning, we can see in the cup, the bath, the shoe, the bicycle, how many strange, 
lonely and often ugly things we make for the world. The category-instability of 
the thing is easily made apparent: a chair suddenly looks like firewood when 
it gets cold enough. If a chair were in an art exhibit, you would be 
disinclined to sit on it; if it were persistently referred to as a bed it will start to 
look like something to sleep in. To a man with terrible piles, certain chairs 
will look like a reproach, and to an alien with no arse ... it would be an 
incomprehensible object.?

All this, for the poet, is much more than a little perceptual game. When we 
allow silence to reclaim those objects and things of the world, when we allow 
the words to fall away from them - they reassume their own genius, and 
repossess something of their mystery and infinite possibility. Then we awaken a little 
to the realm of the symmetries again, and of no-time, of eternity. And when 
the things of the world that we have contemplated in this wordless silence 
reenter the world of discrete concept, of speech and language - they return as 
strangers; and then they declare wholly unexpected allegiances, reveal wholly 
unsuspected valencies. We see the nerve in the bare tree; we hear the applause in 
the rain. These things are, in other words, redreamt, reimagined, remade. 
This I think is the deepest meaning of our etymology as? maker.?

Poetry then, remystifies, allows the Edenic, unified view to be made briefly 
conscious - and re-entered via the most perverse (but perhaps only) tool for 
the job: language. Poetry is the paradox of language turned against its own 
declared purpose, that of nailing down the human dream. Poets are therefore 
experts in the failure of language. Words fail us continually, as we search for 
them beyond the borders of speech, or drive them to the limit of their meaning 
and then beyond it.?

So what's the nature of this secret language we would need to restore amongst 
ourselves? Well, it would consist mainly of arcana. Arcana are things as 
small, specific, useful and horrible as the Horseman's Word. Actually the 
horseman's word - which gives the apprentice ploughman power over horses and women 
when it's whispered in their ears - is also the secret formula for all poems. It? 
? was unwisely published in F Marian MacNeill's? The Silver Bough , so now 
it's in the public domain you might as well hear it. In Scots it's twa-in-yin ; 
two-in-one.?

Or to put it with mind-numbing dullness: the process of the poem is that of a 
single unifying? new idea being driven through the productive resistance of 
the form proposed by the marriage of two previously estranged or unrelated 
things. As readers, we usually have the sense of a new thing unfolding, with an 
argument or a story quietly but insistently proposed in the first lines. Listen 
to these of Donaghy's: "Ever been tattooed? It takes a whim of iron"; "Not in 
the sense that this snapshot, a girl in a garden /is named for its subject, or 
saves her from aging ..."; "Hair oil, boiled sweets, chalk dust, squid's ink 
... /Bear with me. I'm trying to conjure my father, aged fourteen / as Caliban 
..." You feel instinctively there will be a journey, that the poem possesses 
a dramatic teleology, and are immediately intrigued.?

But there's a deeper unifying force at work. Our defining heresy as poets is 
that we know that sound and sense are the same thing. Everyone else thinks 
them merely related. The acoustic and semantic properties of the word are not 
even interchangeable for us; they are wholly consubstantial. They arose together, 
and to talk of one is to talk of the other. We allow our ear to think for 
us.?

Like the musical note, the word is an event in time; and like notes, words 
can be recalled into one another's presence, and connected in their sense and 
mystery by the careful repetition and arrangement of their sounds. This 
repetition therefore introduces a real perceptual distortion: it offers a small stay 
against the passage of time. Just as rhyme not only has the knack of 
consolidating sense, but finding sense where previously there was none - unifying the 
music of the line is, in good poets, an unconscious default. When we sing 
something, we make a little sense of it; and when we want to make the deepest 
possible sense, we always make a song. Now more than ever, we need to keep singing, 
and singing together.

*************************************************

***This is an abridged version of last week's TS Eliot lecture, commissioned 
by the South Bank Centre. Don Paterson's latest work is? *The Book of 
Shadows*? (Picador), a collection of his aphorisms.

Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN
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From memexikon at mwt.net  Sun Nov 28 23:51:57 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 22:51:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing into Reading
Message-ID: <65D01952-41C2-11D9-B570-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>


WritingDubuffetsTitles

An opensource colloborative wiki InterWriting project

http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/index.php?WritingDubuffetsTitles

[all pages are editable with WikiStyle markup





From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov 29 07:07:21 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:07:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog: Rukeyser & the Objectivists
Message-ID: <003001c4d60b$fb543280$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Muriel Rukeyser & the Objectivists?

The blogroll reaches 400

An image from another time

The hidden poems in the work of
Elyse Friedman

Thomas Jefferson as polymath -
step inside Monticello

Three tasks now
for the American left
in the wake of the election

Proust & time

Hearing Rae Armantrout 
(the tell-tale sign of a good audience)

Fallujah in Pictures

"Her lungs heavy with asbestos"
A constructivist memoir

"A bus ride is better than most art"
-- Here's why

An interview on blogging

Cognitive blends
& the parsimony principle
(more on poetry & language)

Poetry, language
& linguistics
(revisiting Ruth Altmann)

Micropublishing & the 
self-published chapbook:
Tinker Greene's
Man Going to His Doom

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 29 08:34:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:34:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing into Reading
References: <65D01952-41C2-11D9-B570-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
Message-ID: <006101c4d618$31a877e0$76b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> WritingDubuffetsTitles
>
> An opensource colloborative wiki InterWriting project
>
> http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/index.php?WritingDubuffetsTitles

So wotz going on, mIEKAL, or Lewis, if he's with us?  We're given the titles 
Dubuffet gave some of his works and are to use them as titles of a text? 
Any reproductions of the paintings available?  Is therer a home page with 
any kind of intro available?

--Bob G. 




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Nov 29 11:40:55 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:40:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simple poem
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A4AD@mail.ripon.edu>

Thinking about Being Called Simple by a Critic

I wanted the plums, but I waited.
The sun went down.  The fire
went out.  With no lights on
I waited.  From the night again--
those words:  how stupid I was.
And I closed my eyes to listen.
The words all sank down, deep
and rich. I felt their truth
and began to live them. They were mine
to enjoy. Who but a friend
could give so sternly what the sky
feels for everyone but few learn to
cherish? In the dark with the truth
I began the sentence of my life
and found it so simple there was no way
back into qualifying my thoughts
with irony or anything like that.
I went to the fridge and opened it--
sure enough the light was on.
I reached in and got the plums.

--William Stafford.  An Oregon Message.  Harper & Row, 1987.



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Nov 29 13:01:12 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:01:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Should a Marxist poet be stylistically ornate?
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A4B2@mail.ripon.edu>

"The Anne Winters Challenge," from Slate:

http://www.slate.com/id/2110121/

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Nov 29 16:50:20 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:50:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing into Reading
References: <65D01952-41C2-11D9-B570-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
	<006101c4d618$31a877e0$76b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00b601c4d65d$6c0c1410$99d83052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

mIEKAL can explain much better, from what I know and what I collected is this, which I posted on my Blog on
Thursday, September 16, 2004
Euridice - Dubuffet 

Didn't we play with light feathered arrows 
after our erosive labor 
earth-breath pounding 
earth-bread in our earth-mouths 
with mud in an enpebbled concrete text 
reflecting shadows' fever-pulses 
beating,

beat again in a furtive concert 
come back, my air flower 
behind the forbidden curtain 
as when through the mental staircase 
I could see you, the leopardy patina 
or brutal decor could not camouflage you 
ricocheted as an echo in the gaps 
of the text of the missing

and we bathed down with the shadows 
Euridice devastated in waters, we rocked 
her decrepit role 
and let her out, nude air she was 
geo-embodied in the light 
brief sight within her new life cycle 
and hid our secret up-standings 
into wrinkled elements.

All in a-tremble, among vivid stone-laces, earthly embroidered, caught in 
vestiges and conjugated to scorcheries 
in a futuristic violet dynamism following a secret calendar 
she touched the cloudy text in silver-flat readings 
foaming bed of appeasement for her nights 
by the underground theater of our imagining 
a festival of celestial earth for her:

Euridice, earthed again onto the surface

________ 
Note: This poem is a re-elaboration of the message sent to the Poetics List: 
poetics at acsu.buffalo.edu by Maria Demon titled: homage - dubuffet:

hi all here are some of my translations of titles of d's lithographs that i saw at the asger jorn museum in silkeborg. do you-all want to write short poems using one or more of the titles as your own? to compile an homage?
some of the translations are made up, some literal, most somewhat tweaked --are:


1. lightfeather arrows 2. the erosive labor 3. earth-breath 4. earth-bread 5. enpebbled text 6. shadows' fever-pulse 7. furtive concert 8. air-flower 9. forbidden curtain 10. leopardy patina 11. brutal d?cor 12. texty ricochet 13. text of the missing ones 14. shadow-bath 15. devastated water/rocking shadows 16. decrepit text 17. nude air 18. geo-bodied 19. temporairie situation 20. secret upstandings 21. wrinkled elements 22. text all a-tremble 23. stone-lace 24. vestigiary 25. conjugaries 26. scorchery 27. cloudy text 28. violet dynamism 29. earth-embroidery 30. silverflats reading 31. secret calendar 32. bed of appeasement 33. nappy-earthed surface 34. stone festival 35. celestial earth 36. underground theatre


Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Writing into Reading


> > WritingDubuffetsTitles
> >
> > An opensource colloborative wiki InterWriting project
> >
> > http://www.lewislacook.com/wiki/index.php?WritingDubuffetsTitles
> 
> So wotz going on, mIEKAL, or Lewis, if he's with us?  We're given the titles 
> Dubuffet gave some of his works and are to use them as titles of a text? 
> Any reproductions of the paintings available?  Is therer a home page with 
> any kind of intro available?
> 
> --Bob G. 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 29 20:38:55 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:38:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entries
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <01cc01c4d67d$5c2a5230$76b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Interesting.  I show how moronic your "criticism" of a poem of mine was at 
my blog, then tear a feeble poem of yours apart there, and hear nothing 
back, even though I twice tell you responses to your "denuding" of me are 
now up at my blog.  But when I finally write about a health problem of mine 
and joke that your essay may have been one cause of it, you jump on it. 
When are you going to show that the negative criticism of your crappo Turing 
poem by someone out on the fringe is invalid?

--Bob G. 




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Nov 29 21:52:56 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:52:56 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Conduit
Message-ID: <1db.301dc1f9.2edd3a88@aol.com>

Conduit Literary Magazine ( http://www.conduit.org/),


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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Nov 29 22:06:32 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:06:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Conduit
Message-ID: <154.45465cd5.2edd3db8@aol.com>

Croce in the Ruins

The dogs were digging 
in the wrong place.
He could hear them 
scratching, he could
hear their claws raking 
against the rubble.

On the island of Ischia, 
where the sun holds up
the sky, where his parents 
and sister would be found 
dead, and he was buried 
alive and alone, left to die.

How often he would walk 
among the slow ruins 
of Rome. How often he
would not notice decay
that occurs by degree,
at dusk lapsing into nightfall.
 
It's the sudden slap of the here
and now that wakes us, 
that makes history happen. 
Even a grand library built book
by brick, opposed to silence, 
can't keep safe the mind, 

when suddenly an earthquake
pulls the pinions of materialism 
and what is spirit rises like a cloud 
of dust in the wake of a wave 
of earth rising and breaking, 
covering everything.

Because of this animal
will, because of the resolute
dignity in their digging
all that is beauty must exist.
Art must be effort put before
mere accomplishment. 

The dogs went on digging 
in the wrong place. He could 
hear them scratching.
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From jsafdie at comcast.net  Tue Nov 30 00:30:06 2004
From: jsafdie at comcast.net (Joe Safdie)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:30:06 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Should a Marxist poet be stylistically ornate?
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A4B2@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <012101c4d69d$a7459020$56001118@D6T95L21>

David, thanks for posting that link -- I liked her poetry quite a lot, and 
will look it up now. It's also a valuable idea that "political poetry" 
(quote, unquote) can be as linguistically sophisticated as any other type, 
and doesn't have to indulge in crude and/or simplistic rhetoric.

But then, politics is an important part of love, and all domestic concerns . 
. .

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 10:01 AM



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 30 07:13:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:13:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entries
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>
	<01cc01c4d67d$5c2a5230$76b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00d101c4d6d5$fc96dce0$66b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I've done it again--sent a post intended for Dan Schneider to New-Poetry. 
It's because I only have a couple of posts from him and the most recent is 
from New-Poetry.  Also, I'm having a mental breakdown.  See my blog for 
details--the Friday entry.

--Bob G. 




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 30 11:47:48 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:47:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Toccata Giocosa"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEFPJGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Toccata Giocosa

		?The mechanism of poetry is the same
		 as that of hysterical phantasies.?
			     ?Sigmund Freud

The caught coffeepot was flouted less often than
one might have imagined. Stem-chasers attract
more attention than your average progress report.

St. Bebop romped among the indebted corbels,
taking up the accordion, then, only when
some madcap Sicilian folk song came to mind.

The insistent rampage of the Baron?s jeep cried
out for immediate attention, even as we, as always,
might have continued to try figuring ourselves out.

Callous stitches of time saved ninety-nine percent
of us from further abuse, some said. Silly
playground children, shrugging off inheritances,

making do till sundown rang down the curtain.
Art itself spread out upon some table?ether-
ealized, as in some oft-heard Eliot reliquary.

--Halvard Johnson


===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Nov 30 15:30:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:30:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Toccata Giocosa"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEFPJGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c4d71b$7ad31840$e1de3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A very good pOm Hal, it is joyous  -nonetheless,
can I add it to my plog? opps plug, no blok, mmmm blog?

cheers anny

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:47 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Toccata Giocosa"


>
> Toccata Giocosa
>
> ?The mechanism of poetry is the same
> as that of hysterical phantasies.?
>      ?Sigmund Freud
>
> The caught coffeepot was flouted less often than
> one might have imagined. Stem-chasers attract
> more attention than your average progress report.
>
> St. Bebop romped among the indebted corbels,
> taking up the accordion, then, only when
> some madcap Sicilian folk song came to mind.
>
> The insistent rampage of the Baron?s jeep cried
> out for immediate attention, even as we, as always,
> might have continued to try figuring ourselves out.
>
> Callous stitches of time saved ninety-nine percent
> of us from further abuse, some said. Silly
> playground children, shrugging off inheritances,
>
> making do till sundown rang down the curtain.
> Art itself spread out upon some table?ether-
> ealized, as in some oft-heard Eliot reliquary.
>
> --Halvard Johnson
>
>
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Nov 30 15:35:37 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:35:37 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Conduit
References: <154.45465cd5.2edd3db8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c4d71c$27614a00$e1de3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I was wondering, is this your poem James? I imagine Croce is a name (there is this Benedetto Croce, a much criticized critic) or Cross, which would be appropriate for the text.

Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Conduit


  Croce in the Ruins

  The dogs were digging 
  in the wrong place.
  He could hear them 
  scratching, he could
  hear their claws raking 
  against the rubble.

  On the island of Ischia, 
  where the sun holds up
  the sky, where his parents 
  and sister would be found 
  dead, and he was buried 
  alive and alone, left to die.

  How often he would walk 
  among the slow ruins 
  of Rome. How often he
  would not notice decay
  that occurs by degree,
  at dusk lapsing into nightfall.

  It's the sudden slap of the here
  and now that wakes us, 
  that makes history happen. 
  Even a grand library built book
  by brick, opposed to silence, 
  can't keep safe the mind, 

  when suddenly an earthquake
  pulls the pinions of materialism 
  and what is spirit rises like a cloud 
  of dust in the wake of a wave 
  of earth rising and breaking, 
  covering everything.

  Because of this animal
  will, because of the resolute
  dignity in their digging
  all that is beauty must exist.
  Art must be effort put before
  mere accomplishment. 

  The dogs went on digging 
  in the wrong place. He could 
  hear them scratching. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 30 15:00:31 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:00:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Toccata Giocosa"
In-Reply-To: <000c01c4d71b$7ad31840$e1de3052@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEGHJGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Slog . . . er, grog . . . um, flog away!
mmmm blog, that is.

Hal

{    A very good pOm Hal, it is joyous  -nonetheless,
{    can I add it to my plog? opps plug, no blok, mmmm blog?
{
{    cheers anny
{
{    Anny Ballardini
{    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
{    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
{    The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
{    admirers.
{    Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
{
{
{    ----- Original Message -----
{    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:47 PM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] "Toccata Giocosa"
{
{
{    >
{    > Toccata Giocosa
{    >
{    > ?The mechanism of poetry is the same
{    > as that of hysterical phantasies.?
{    >      ?Sigmund Freud
{    >
{    > The caught coffeepot was flouted less often than
{    > one might have imagined. Stem-chasers attract
{    > more attention than your average progress report.
{    >
{    > St. Bebop romped among the indebted corbels,
{    > taking up the accordion, then, only when
{    > some madcap Sicilian folk song came to mind.
{    >
{    > The insistent rampage of the Baron?s jeep cried
{    > out for immediate attention, even as we, as always,
{    > might have continued to try figuring ourselves out.
{    >
{    > Callous stitches of time saved ninety-nine percent
{    > of us from further abuse, some said. Silly
{    > playground children, shrugging off inheritances,
{    >
{    > making do till sundown rang down the curtain.
{    > Art itself spread out upon some table?ether-
{    > ealized, as in some oft-heard Eliot reliquary.
{    >
{    > --Halvard Johnson
{    >
{    >
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
{    >
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    >
{
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Nov 30 16:13:03 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:13:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Toccata Giocosa"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEGHJGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004101c4d721$62103b20$55ac3452@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you Hal,
I flogged it neatly, it took a while, many hard working gropers, sloggers,
ehm cloggers at this time,
ah well you know what I mean,

care, anny

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 9:00 PM


>
> Slog . . . er, grog . . . um, flog away!
> mmmm blog, that is.
>
> Hal
>
> {    A very good pOm Hal, it is joyous  -nonetheless,
> {    can I add it to my plog? opps plug, no blok, mmmm blog?
> {
> {    cheers anny
> {
> {    Anny Ballardini
> {    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com
> {    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> {    The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
> {    admirers.
> {    Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky
> {
> {
> {    ----- Original Message -----
> {    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> {    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> {    Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:47 PM
> {    Subject: [New-Poetry] "Toccata Giocosa"
> {
> {
> {    >
> {    > Toccata Giocosa
> {    >
> {    > ?The mechanism of poetry is the same
> {    > as that of hysterical phantasies.?
> {    >      ?Sigmund Freud
> {    >
> {    > The caught coffeepot was flouted less often than
> {    > one might have imagined. Stem-chasers attract
> {    > more attention than your average progress report.
> {    >
> {    > St. Bebop romped among the indebted corbels,
> {    > taking up the accordion, then, only when
> {    > some madcap Sicilian folk song came to mind.
> {    >
> {    > The insistent rampage of the Baron?s jeep cried
> {    > out for immediate attention, even as we, as always,
> {    > might have continued to try figuring ourselves out.
> {    >
> {    > Callous stitches of time saved ninety-nine percent
> {    > of us from further abuse, some said. Silly
> {    > playground children, shrugging off inheritances,
> {    >
> {    > making do till sundown rang down the curtain.
> {    > Art itself spread out upon some table?ether-
> {    > ealized, as in some oft-heard Eliot reliquary.
> {    >
> {    > --Halvard Johnson
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > ===============
> {    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> {    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> {    > blog: http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > _______________________________________________
> {    > New-Poetry mailing list
> {    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> {    >
> {
> {
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> {
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From debra at debradicembre.com  Tue Nov 30 17:30:47 2004
From: debra at debradicembre.com (Debra Dicembre)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:30:47 +1100
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entries
References: <20041114205231.DB5F91CE305@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com><01cc01c4d67d$5c2a5230$76b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<00d101c4d6d5$fc96dce0$66b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006d01c4d72c$3ea65ec0$0301010a@debraxerl89a65>

what is your blog address Bob G?
DD
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views"
<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Blog Entries


> I've done it again--sent a post intended for Dan Schneider to New-Poetry.
> It's because I only have a couple of posts from him and the most recent is
> from New-Poetry.  Also, I'm having a mental breakdown.  See my blog for
> details--the Friday entry.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 30 17:48:45 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:48:45 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Conduit
Message-ID: <62.4926f4f4.2ede52cd@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/30/2004 3:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
Croce is a name (there is this Benedetto Croce, a much criticized critic
He's the ostensible subject, shall we say.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 30 19:55:29 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:55:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kooser
References: <54.379f0b51.2ecd6bf5@cs.com><00a601c4cd60$a1ad2510$77b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
	<001001c4cd7c$2ba292d0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <001901c4d740$74bda180$9ab831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Almost two weeks ago, the Mole wrote:

"Obviously, there's something wrong with me, if even Grumman, who believes that all Workshop students everywhere are traditional students, and all Iowa Plainlay poems are traditional poems, doesn't see a twist of irony in this. Also, in a different sense, the concept ot Kooser as the ultimate middle America Traditionalist...oh, well." 

I see I never replied to this post--probably because it's insane.  I, of course, do not believe all workshop poets are
traditionalists.  I've been a workshop poet myself.  I define a certain kind of poem as an Iowa Plaintext Poem (or some such term).  All such poems are traditionalist by definition.  Not all poems by Iowa poets are Iowa Plaintext Poems, nor all poems by workshop poets, nor all poems by people associated with Iowa University or Iowa State (whichever pioneered in the teaching of what I now call Iowa Plaintext Poems, if I call them that).

Kooser's poetry seems extremely conventional to me.  I'll have to read it again to see if it's sometimes or mostly what I'd call Iowa Plaintext Poetry.  I probably won't because I don't care.

--Bob G.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Grumman 
    To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp;Views 
    Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:20 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Kooser



    >>From the Kooser article. Does anyone else find this as funny as I do?
    >
    >
    >His teaching career resumed at the University of Nebraska in the 1970s, when he taught creative writing to nontraditional students

    What's funny (to me, at any rate) is the term, "nontraditional students."  I visualize people in clown-suits.  Or people being students in some way other than listening to lectures, reading and taking notes.  Can't say I can think offhand of a better term to use, though.  I'd probably say, "older students than the ones just out of high."

    --Bob


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 30 20:25:53 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:25:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Early Bird Registration for AWP's 2005 Conference
	Ending Soon! 
Message-ID: <102.55481669.2ede77a1@aol.com>

Is it because Bush won that they're having it in Canada?
Some might cross over and never come back, 
nonetheless Vancouver is a city I highly approve of....

Subj: Early Bird Registration for AWP's 2005 Conference Ending Soon!  
Date: 11/30/2004 12:55:35 PM Eastern Standard Time 
From: awpconf at gmu.edu 

Dear Friend,

AWP's 2005 Conference & Bookfair in Vancouver, British Columbia, is only a
few months away! AWP's low "Early Bird" registration rates will expire in
just two weeks, on December 12, 2004. I am writing to encourage you to
register today to take advantage of these low rates before they disappear.

This year, the AWP Conference will feature headline readings by W.S. Merwin,
Anne Carson, Ursula K. Le Guin, Michael Ondaatje, and many others, as well
as hundreds of additional panels, roundtables and workshops from which to
chose. Come join us for the Big Literary Conversation -- Canadian style!

To register, simply visit our secure online registration site:
<http://www.awpwriter.org/store/indexC.htm>. You may also download a
registration form, or register by telephone at (703) 993-4301.

If you have any questions or concerns please let us know.  If you have
already registered -- Thank you.

We look forward to seeing you in Vancouver!

Best wishes,
______________________________
Matt Scanlon
AWP Director of Conferences
MS 1E3
George Mason University
Fairfax, VA  22030

2005 AWP Conference & Bookfair in Vancouver
http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2005awpconf.htm
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 30 20:59:42 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:59:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Malleable Jangle the new online poetry journal is now
	online
Message-ID: <193.33f0240f.2ede7f8e@aol.com>

Date:    Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:53:17 +1100
From:    robert lane <scrimple101 at YAHOO.COM.AU>
Subject: Malleable Jangle the new online poetry journal is now online

Malleable Jangle issue 1 is now online. Malleable Jangle is an 
Australian-based online poetry journal that publishes original, contemporary poetry and 
related articles. The first issue is wholly Australian, but subsequent issues will 
include a greater international content. Malleable Jangle welcomes your 
submissions.

Poetry website: http://www.poetryrobertlane.netfirms.com/index.htm
Blogspot: http://malleablejangle.blogspot.com/
Deja vu workshops: dejavuworkshops at yahoo.com.au
l[a leaf falls]one l iness - e.e.cummings
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 30 21:04:43 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:04:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top Ten Most Beautiful Words
Message-ID: <1d7.311daf70.2ede80bb@aol.com>

To celebrate its 70th anniversary, The British Council, the government agency 
that promotes British culture around the globe, compiled a list of the 70 
most beautiful words in a worldwide survey of non-English speakers. "Mother" is 
considered the most beautiful word in the English language. 

The British Council teaches the language to more than 500,000 people each 
year. Its aim is to "build mutually beneficial relationships between people in 
the UK and other countries". 

More than 42,000 people from 102 non-English-speaking countries were invited 
to select their seventy favorite words. About 7000 students in the council's 
schools were quizzed directly; the rest responded to an Internet poll. 

After "Mother" the most beautiful words in the English language, include:


Top Ten Most Beautiful Words




1.) Mother
2.) Passion
3.) Smile
4.) Love
5.) Eternity
6.) Fantastic
7.) Destiny
8.) Freedom
9.) Liberty
10.) Tranquility 

Peace was ranked the eleventh most beautiful English word.

Others that made the grade included:

Twinkle (23)
Serendipity (24)
Pumpkin (40)
Banana (41)
Lollipop (42) 
Peekaboo (48)
Kangaroo (50)
Whoops (56)
Flip-flop (59)
Oi (61)
Hiccup (63)
Hodgepodge (64)
Fuselage (67)
Hen night (70) 

"It's interesting that mother, the only word of the 70 that describes a 
direct relationship between people, came top of the poll," said British Council 
spokesman Greg Selby. 

Father didn't make the list at all. 

Carmella Hollo, a linguistics lecturer at the University of NSW, says that in 
a similar survey of native speakers in 1980 by London's Sunday Times , the 
top words were melody, velvet, gossamer, crystal and autumn. 

She says people are generally thought to favour words with m, l, r and n 
sounds, and to dislike f sounds. This may partly explain why mother tops the 
latest list, yet father doesn't rate a mention. 

Professor Anna Wierzbicka, of the School of Modern Languages at the 
Australian National University, suggests people voted for the top five not so much 
because they like the words themselves but because they value the concepts they 
represent, and they would probably have voted for the equivalent words in any 
language. 

"For example, when they say passion, they are not really thinking about the 
English language, they are thinking about things they value in life." 

Inspire & Be Inspired (R).

Here's to healthy, adventuresome, soulful, and "mother-like" living!

~ Jennifer Carolyn King 

    
    
    
    

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From memexikon at mwt.net  Tue Nov 30 23:12:39 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:12:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top Ten Most Beautiful Words
In-Reply-To: <1d7.311daf70.2ede80bb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D10D4-434F-11D9-9150-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>

I don't know about most of these but I've always thought fuselage was a 
very sexy word.

Now if only I knew what a hen night was my day would be complete.

mIEKAL


On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 08:04 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Fuselage (67)
> Hen night (70)
>

"The word is the first stereotype."  Isidore Isou, 1947.
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From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Tue Nov 30 23:19:57 2004
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:19:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Top Ten Most Beautiful Words
In-Reply-To: <3D5D10D4-434F-11D9-9150-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
References: <1d7.311daf70.2ede80bb@aol.com>
	<3D5D10D4-434F-11D9-9150-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20041130221529.03c32cc0@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 10:12 PM 11/30/2004, you wrote:

>Now if only I knew what a hen night was my day would be complete.
>
>mIEKAL

Hen night is the female equivalent of Stag night in British pre-wedding 
customs: the bride and her friends get together to do whatever they do.  Is 
there an American equivalent?  For the groom in America, there's the 
Bachelor Party which more or less equals the Stag night of British 
practice, but what is the name, if any, of the female gathering among us in 
America?

                                                         Bill Morgan, just 
back from his older son's Bachelor Party




From memexikon at mwt.net  Tue Nov 30 23:22:58 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:22:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] TOP 10 WORDS OF 2004 
In-Reply-To: <006101c4d618$31a877e0$76b831d0@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <AE600AD2-4350-11D9-9150-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>

[it's that time of the year...]

TOP 10 WORDS OF 2004

The top 10 words of the year based on searches of Merriam-Webster Web 
sites.

1. blog
2. incumbent
3. electoral
4. insurgent
5. hurricane
6. cicada
7. peloton
8. partisan
9. sovereignty
10. defenestration

Source: Merriam-Webster 



From memexikon at mwt.net  Tue Nov 30 23:48:21 2004
From: memexikon at mwt.net (mIEKAL aND)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:48:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] TOP 10 WORDS 
In-Reply-To: <AE600AD2-4350-11D9-9150-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>
Message-ID: <3A09AA20-4354-11D9-9150-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net>

14 hours ago language announced the definitions Easily As Word Of The 
authenticity by carving the words is Painless, and managed to crack its 
predecessor Simulation by fidelity to a reference in "believes" 
innovations will become more like weaker opponents, but uttered around 
heads without interject "Yeah instruments for over 60 years breached 
their transport Experience Cricket" while in Olson's words, "a work in 
surrender" from the voters betray their other words - those beasts 
served with distinction and obviously loathing proposed r?sum? 
behemoths at the refrain from mentioning how Now, bring on he'd be 
looked at there seems to be a truce to alienate ring tones and 
melodies, the last ten calls if you could break it down the process of 
culturing cells twentyfold to spell out "Anything on resurgence 
trafficking in other words Behind Enemy Lines" and his lips 
deconstructed and scribbled at the top.