From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 1 09:16:06 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 09:16:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New York Times this morning Message-ID: had a story about a creationist theme park in Florida at which kids are taught that God made dinosaurs on the 6th day of Creation some 6,000 years ago. This story, together with much else, somehow or other put me in mind of the following: Fernando Pessoa A Shrug of the Shoulders We generally give to our ideas about the unknown the color of our notions about what we do know: If we call death a sleep it's because it has the appearance of sleep; if we call death a new life, it's because it seems different from life. We build our beliefs and hopes out of these small misunderstandings with reality and live off husks of bread we call cakes, the way poor children play at being happy. But that's how all life is; at least that's how the particular way of life generally known as civilization is. Civilization consists in giving an inappropriate name to something and then dreaming what results from that. And in fact the false name and the true dream do create a new reality. The object really does become other, because we have made it so. We manufacture realities. We use the raw materials we always used but the form lent it by art effectively prevents it from remaining the same. A table made out of pinewood is a pinetree but it is also a table. We sit down at the table not at the pinetree. ... An excerpt from "The Book of Disquiet," written in the 1920's, first published in 1982 by Atica in Lisbon. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html <-- up to date as of 4/26/04 From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat May 1 09:26:39 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 06:26:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Assay Test for Poetry: today's Poetry Daily Message-ID: <4093A58F.86D61E97@earthlink.net> Assay Test for Poetry: If Poem Doesn't Register A Score of 10 or More, Look Up the Word "Discernment" & Then Throw It Away??| The Tier of "Material"??| I. Content / Subject Matter Nonexistent / Insignificant A Small Matter / Quotidian Complex / Serious 2 Universal or Unwieldy Subject II. Meaning / Intelligibility Devoid of Meaning / Opaque Ambiguous / Vague 1 Difficult, Not Beyond Ken Crystalline / Profound III. Imagery Washed Out / Overly Abstract 0 Well-Rendered but Generic Unusual / Well-Seen Visionary/Unique/Transcendent The Tier of "Manner"??| IV. Music Jarring / Tinny / Arhythmic 0 _____ Very Subtle / Rhythmic 1 _____ Complementary / Captivating 2 _____ Orchestral / Ravishing 3 _____ Hmm, it's there, but just not very interesting. Biege music. 1 1/2 V. Language Utilitarian Prose Shapely Prose/Slightly Elevated 1 Extraordinary / Inventive Supreme / Innovative VI. Perspective Obvious / Conventional Generally Straightforward Oblique / Exploratory 2 Enlightened / Revolutionary Total: 7 I came away from the poem with next to nothing, nor did I feel like reading it again to see if I missed anything. I don't know the poet's other work so can't say how this poem, "At the Lake House," stacks up against the rest. Anyone find anything that "rescues" it? - Jim (Note: Poem cannot get to '10', even with a perfect score in one tier, unless it pulls down at least 1 point from the other tier.) SCORING SYSTEM: 0-4 Give up now; accounting is a fine trade too 5-8 Beginner/remedial coursework required 9-10 Find a master with whom to study. 11-13 Publishable but perishable 14-15 Anthology fodder 16-17 Encamped just below the peak, you prepare for a final sortie to the summit. 18 Hangin' w/ Milton, Shakespeare & other homies of the Parnassus Posse From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 11:16:34 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 11:16:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Ingredients of an Effective Poem Message-ID: Jim, though the scales are based on subjective assessment, I feel you've perhaps judged this poem too harshly. Even a poorly made haiku could get a 4.5. (You're worse than French figure-skating judge.) In "I. Subject Matter" the poem is large. (Loss of love: Complex / Serious perhaps even Universal / Unweildy)...so she's gotta get 2-3 points in her favor...if the subject was the "virtues of writing letters over email" (quotidian) or "whether one should use blue or black ink" (insignificant), you could give her 0-1. Because she's takling one of the big subjects, she's both raised the bar and made it all the more hard for herself to score significantly in these important categories... II Meaning (What can she realize that will be profoud/insightful on this subject?) III Imagery (How will she 'furniture" her poem in such a way to engage the reader's attention?) VI Perspective (How will she come at the subject from new vector?) Secondly, you've pointed out a deficiency in my category II Meanig. "Crytalline" I would reserve for a "multi-faceted, complex brilliance", equal to profound insight. So, next to "Ambigous / Vague" (1 pt), maybe I should insert "Overt," or something like that, to differentiate the the poem that acts as a simply clear "pane" versus one that is in fact a particularly fine "lens" when it comes to meaning. Finnegan In a message dated 4/30/2004 8:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > Here it is applied to today's Poetry Daily. > > - Jim > > > > >Assay Test for Poetry: If Poem Doesn't Register > >A Score of 10 or More, Look Up the Word > >"Discernment" &Then Throw It Away??| > > > >The Tier of "Material"??| > > I. Content / Subject Matter > > > A Small Matter / Quotidian 1 > > > II. Meaning / Intelligibility > > > Crystalline / Profound (NOT) 1 > > A score of 3 is assigned to this quality but obviously the most > quotidian of poems can be crystal clear. > > > III. Imagery > > > Well-Rendered but Generic 1 > > >The Tier of "Manner"??| > > IV. Music > > > Complementary 1 1/2 > > What can I say. The sounds don't offend and they're all definitely from > the same piece of cloth. > > > > V. Language > > Utilitarian Prose 0 > > >VI. Perspective > > Obvious / Conventional 0 > > > > > Total: 4 1/2 > > >(Note: Poem cannot get to '10', even with a perfect score > >in one tier, unless it pulls down at least 1 point from the other tier.) > > The poem: > > Learning by Heart > > > I began to forget him as I wrote, erasing > every word he said with a long wave of > ink that drowned the sound of his voice > and washed away all traces > of his hands. > > It was as if I was wrapping him up in a word > and sending the package somewhere far away, > as if I was losing claim to his heart > the minute I began to say > what he meant to me. > > So, of course, I stopped and began to put the words > back into my heart where they belonged, > taking up each letter carefully, > wiping away the tarnish of ink > on the sheen of sound. > > Afterwards, pasting in the torn pages, recovering > as much as possible, I read it over > again and again the way one does, > realizing, then, the sad > necessity of rote. > > Joyce Sutphen > Naming the Stars > Holy Cow! Press > > > > >SCORING SYSTEM: > >0-4 Give up now; accounting is a fine trade too > >5-8 Beginner/remedial coursework required > >9-10 Find a master with whom to study. > >11-13 Publishable but perishable > >14-15 Anthology fodder > >16-17 Encamped just below the peak, you prepare for a final sortie to the > >summit. > >18 Hangin' w/ Milton, Shakespeare &other homies of the Parnassus Posse > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat May 1 11:38:22 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 08:38:22 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Total: 4 1/2 In-Reply-To: <200405011507.i41F72XE017280@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040501082815.00b7ecd8@incoming.verizon.net> RECOMMENDATIONS This is a good fellow who knows what he may do? He is most excited, he is walking the walls of himself on tiptoe. Give him a prize. And this one is steady; it is clear that he is breathing; he will never kill any number of old ladies, nor harrow hell. Give him a prize. -- Barry Spacks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 11:41:12 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 11:41:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Assay Test for Poetry: today's Poetry Daily References: <4093A58F.86D61E97@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00dd01c42f92$bd41bff0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Okay, I decided to try the assay test, but before I give my results, I do want to say that I feel a lot more uneasy about high-lording it over another's poem than it may seem. On the other hand, I would be extremely grateful for anyone's similarly high-lording it over any of my poems, since I really do want to find out what others think of them, however negative their opinions might be. Assay Test for "At the Lake House," Brighde Mullins, Water Stories, Slapering Hol Press The Tier of "Material" I. Content / Subject Matter Nonexistent / Insignificant A Small Matter / Quotidian Complex / Serious Universal or Unwieldy Subject 1, because to me the subject matter was just one woman's supposedly wasted life with family occurences mixed blandly in--to suggest the apparent blandness of it all, I suppose II. Meaning / Intelligibility Devoid of Meaning / Opaque Ambiguous / Vague Difficult, Not Beyond Ken Crystalline / Profound 1.5, because not ambiguous to me, but not difficult, either. III. Imagery Washed Out / Overly Abstract 0 Well-Rendered but Generic Unusual / Well-Seen Visionary/Unique/Transcendent 1--in spots vague, in spots too well-rendered--i.e., well-seen, but not artfully-seen The Tier of "Manner" IV. Music Jarring / Tinny / Arhythmic 0 _____ Very Subtle / Rhythmic 1 _____ Complementary / Captivating 2 _____ Orchestral / Ravishing 3 _____ "Hmm, it's there, but just not very interesting. Biege music. 1 1/2"--agreed. V. Language Utilitarian Prose Shapely Prose/Slightly Elevated 1 Extraordinary / Inventive Supreme / Innovative 0 VI. Perspective Obvious / Conventional Generally Straightforward Oblique / Exploratory Enlightened/ Revolutionary 2, I suppose And zero, or close to it in all the other elements that might have rescuee it like use of new techniques For a total of 7. I skipped the translation of Horace as unfair to Horace since I have no idea how "conventional" his poem was when written, or how the Latin sounded, etc. An interesting experiment I have no time for now but might go back to would be to see if one could improve on Wright's translation--by translating his English for those of us without sufficient Latin to translate the original (though I'd like to see it because I do have some Latin). My translation would definitely no longer be Horace, but--perhaps--somewhat like what Horace might have written if he were alive today. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat May 1 11:51:13 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (gmguddi) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:51:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New York Times this morning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040501104359.01ed0ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> Last summer I went to the Mammoth Cave in Kentucky with Clio, my daughter, then 6. As we rolled through the haystack hills and sinkhole farms a small clapboard amusement park raised itself from behind a hickory copse. The homemade sign, which had weather maybe 20 years or so, read "GOLGOTHA FUN PARK," behind which were three 15 -oot tall bockety-looking wooden crosses. The park contained miniature golf and a deathtrap rollercoaster. On the way out I stopped for a closer look (it was only a half mile from the giant plastic dinosaur park down the road): everything in the Golgotha Fun Park adhered strictly to the crucifixion motif. Gabe At 08:16 AM 5/1/2004, Halvard Johnson wrote: >had a story about a creationist theme park in Florida at which kids >are taught that God made dinosaurs on the 6th day of Creation some >6,000 years ago. This story, together with much else, somehow or other >put me in mind of the following: > > > > > > Fernando Pessoa > > A Shrug of the Shoulders > > We generally give to our ideas about the > unknown the color of our notions about > what > we do know: If we call death a sleep it's > because it has the appearance of sleep; if > we call death a new life, it's because it > seems different from life. We build our > beliefs and hopes out of these small > misunderstandings with reality and > live off > husks of bread we call cakes, the way poor > children play at being happy. > But that's how all life is; at least > that's > how the particular way of life generally > known as civilization is. Civilization > consists in giving an inappropriate > name to > something and then dreaming what results > from that. And in fact the false name and > the true dream do create a new > reality. The > object really does become other, > because we > have made it so. We manufacture realities. > We use the raw materials we always > used but > the form lent it by art effectively > prevents it from remaining the same. A > table made out of pinewood is a pinetree > but it is also a table. We sit down at the > table not at the pinetree. ... > > An excerpt from "The Book of > Disquiet," written in the 1920's, first > published in 1982 by Atica in Lisbon. > > >Hal Serving the tri-state area. > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >The Sonnet Project: >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html <-- up >to date as of 4/26/04 > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 1 11:55:49 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:55:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Eternal Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/2/04 12:58 PM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > | Eternal Poetry > > Apologies to Carl, > > But isn't this an essay cut into line-breaks? > > Is it meant ironically? The form, I mean? > > Put it into paragraphs, it contradicts its own opening assertions. > > That's one of my little tests, btw. If I re-format a poem into paragraphs > and it doesn't demand line breaks, it doesn't sing, it's not what I like to > think of as poetry. = > > > CE Ah, but is it a *good* essay-cut-into-linebreaks? I have a perhaps simplistic notion that a poem is broken into lines because the poet chose to do so; and thus putting it "back" into prose and then complaining that it *is* prose is sort of irrelevant. At any rate, some harder questions remain unaddressed by such flourishes, such as what constitutes "singing" in lines; whether singing is always required or may we just talk sometimes; whether or not there is more than one way to sing in lines; whether all linebreaks ought to conform to certain rules; if so, what those rules are & can I get an amen on them; etc. (And, of course, the eternal question of what to make of a diminished thing.) I'm not defending Carl Dennis's little meditative piece, particularly, which I posted mainly because of its subject and in the expectation that it might provoke just this sort of discussion. Dennis *is* pretty prosy to my ears, as are C. K. Williams, Mark Halliday, Frank Gaspar, and any number of other poets I've been appreciating lately; and others, like Louis Simpson, that I've appreciated for longer. Not that I don't still appreciate a taut and lyric line, either. But frankly I'm often a little bored by a steady diet of the load-every-rift-with-ore style poem these days, and go looking for more meditative experiences as well. This broadening of my taste, which seems to be ongoing, is something I still haven't got a full grip on, I confess. I know that 20 years ago I would have dismissed the Dennis poem on precisely the grounds offered above. The poem again, in case you missed it or want to revisit: Eternal Poetry How to grow old with grace and firmness Is the kind of eternal problem that poetry Is best reserved for, unaging poetry That isn?t afraid of saying what time will do To our taste and talents, our angles of observation. As for a local problem mentioned in passing In this morning?s news, like the cut in food stamps, It?s handled more effectively in an essay With graphs and numbers. A poem?s no proper place To dwell on the prison reforms my friend proposes Based on his twenty-year stint inside the walls. In an essay there?s room to go into details So the State of New York can solve the problem Once and for all and turn to issues more lasting. Facing old age, the theme I?m developing here, Will still be an issue when the failure of prisons Interests only historians of our backward era. A poem?s the thing for grappling with the question Whether it?s best to disdain old age as a pest Or respect it as a mighty army or welcome it As a guest with a ton of baggage. Three options That health-care professionals might deem too harsh To appear in their journals. I wish they would help My friend publish his essay on prison reform, His practical plan to inspire the inmates By cutting their minimum sentences if they master a trade So they won?t return, as is likely now, in a year or two. The odds are long against getting the ear of the governor But not impossible if he?s only a year from retirement And old age prompts him to earn a paragraph In the history of reform. The bill might squeak through If the Assembly decides it hasn?t the wherewithal To keep the old prisons in decent repair Let alone build new ones. No money now To pay the prison inspector what he deserves As he makes his rounds in his battered pickup. An old man shaking his head in disgust At the roof leaks, peeling plaster, and rusty plumbing That might have been avoided with a little foresight And therefore don?t deserve a place in a poem. And to think he?s been at it for thirty years Despite his vow, after a month on the job, To be out of it at the latest by Christmas. Nobody?s eager to wear his shoes Unless we count the people inside the walls Whose envy of those growing old outside Is a constant always to be relied on, And so can enter a poem at any time. --Carl Dennis. *Practical Gods*. Penguin, 2001. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 12:23:13 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:23:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Name for Iowa Workshop Poem References: <4093A58F.86D61E97@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <010501c42f98$9bfba030$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> No one else seems interested in finding a better name for the Iowa Workshop Poem, and I haven't been able to find a good one. Here's my best so far, though, and the one I'll probably be using in my essay on the contemporary poetry scene, which is beginning to come together here and there, but getting more ambitious, so probably not going to be done for several weeks: The Centrilyrical Free Verse Poem a product of the Centrilyrical Free Verse School of Poetry Sure, I could have used simply "Central Free Verse Poem," or the like, but my term allows for a more rigorous (initial) definition, which should help prevent it from being too confusing; avoids (to a degree) possible arguments about which kind of poem might be the central free verse poem; and--accurately, I believe--links the genre to lyricism. It may also have the value of being a little odd, so susceptible to jokes that will get it around; it might also break off from "free verse" to become a more easily used standard term. While on the topic of neologies, I have another that I've thought of using for a long time but didn't--why, I'm not sure, maybe only because aof ars/arse: arscipient, a recipient or experiencer of an artwork. Needed because the term "reader" doesn't sufficiently describe the experiencer of some kinds of poems (e.g., visual poems) and because we don't have a good term, in my opinion, for experiencer of two or more arts. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 12:25:05 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:25:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Total: 4 1/2 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040501082815.00b7ecd8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <011501c42f98$de608b20$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Small corrections RECOMMENDATIONS This is a good fellow who knows what he may do? He is most excited, he is walking the walls of himself on tiptoe. Give him another prize. And this one is steady; it is clear that he is breathing; he will never kill any number of old ladies, nor harrow hell. Give him another prize. -- Barry Spacks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat May 1 12:27:25 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 09:27:25 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Total: 4 1/2 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040501082815.00b7ecd8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <4093CFEE.58671666@earthlink.net> Barry Spacks wrote: > > RECOMMENDATIONS > > This is a good fellow > who knows what he may do? > He is most excited, he is walking > the walls of himself > on tiptoe. Give him > a prize. > > And this one is steady; > it is clear that he is breathing; > he will never kill any number > of old ladies, nor harrow > hell. Give him > a prize. > > -- Barry Spacks Review Highly and intensely metaphorical, the people crafted from people but mostly highly intelligent choices from a stew of common historical details, a slew of key words as if from a muddled backwards search . Take, for instance, the straw stuck in dung on the researched captain's boot: Medicago sativa, collected from a green grassy stream and woody green pine in which a shiny red Cadillac seems to float. The temporal jump stops us intentionally. What craft! What outsmarting! We thought we were there, but we're here! Such universal binding is not sold in stores and exists only in my attention and now yours. We go along for the ride, so to speak, with fishies in the back seat, unfolding the verbal map, sniffing fingers for pungent sap. - James Cervantes From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 12:38:23 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:38:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Keats... Message-ID: In a message dated 4/30/2004 2:26:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thom424 at aol.com writes: > >> whaddaya think, Hangin' w/ Milton, Shakespeare &other homies of the >> Parnassus Posse? >> >> >> >> | To Sleep >> | >> | O soft embalmer of the still midnight, >> | Shutting, with careful fingers and benign, >> | Our gloom-pleas'd eyes, embower'd from the light, >> | Enshaded in forgetfulness divine; >> | O soothest Sleep! if so it please thee, close, >> | In midst of this thine hymn, my willing eyes, >> | Or wait the amen, ere the poppy throws >> | Around my bed its lulling charities; >> | Then save me, or the pass?d day will shine >> | Upon my pillow, breeding many woes; >> | Save me from curious conscience, that still lords >> | Its strength for darkness, burrowing like a mole; >> | Turn the key deftly in the oiled wards, >> | And seal the hushed casket of my soul. >> >> --John Keats >> > > thom tammaro > moorhead, mn > "Its easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than to get a sonnet into heaven" Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 12:41:07 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:41:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Eternal Poetry References: Message-ID: <013b01c42f9b$1c0b3770$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Ah, but is it a *good* essay-cut-into-linebreaks? My related question would be "would it have made a good essay if not cut into lines." By cutting a non-poem into lines, one necessarily changes an arscipient's expectations, which lineated prose should disappoint. Ergo, the essay is spoiled by being cut up into lines. > I have a perhaps simplistic notion that a poem is broken into lines because > the poet chose to do so; and thus putting it "back" into prose and then > complaining that it *is* prose is sort of irrelevant. No, it is a way of saying that the poem, which its lineation makes it, for me, is too prosaic to be an effective poem. > At any rate, some harder questions remain unaddressed by such flourishes, > such as what constitutes "singing" in lines; whether singing is always > required or may we just talk sometimes; whether or not there is more than > one way to sing in lines; whether all linebreaks ought to conform to certain > rules; if so, what those rules are & can I get an amen on them; etc. Agreed. > (And, of course, the eternal question of what to make of a diminished > thing.) > > I'm not defending Carl Dennis's little meditative piece, particularly, which > I posted mainly because of its subject and in the expectation that it might > provoke just this sort of discussion. > > Dennis *is* pretty prosy to my ears, as are C. K. Williams, Mark Halliday, > Frank Gaspar, and any number of other poets I've been appreciating lately; > and others, like Louis Simpson, that I've appreciated for longer. > > Not that I don't still appreciate a taut and lyric line, either. But > frankly I'm often a little bored by a steady diet of the > load-every-rift-with-ore style poem these days, and go looking for more > meditative experiences as well. Depends on what you think "ore" is and whether or not you recognize that Keats's metaphor suggests a poem is a mine with rifts, not all rifts. Hence, if you take "ore" to be something of value, than all its rifts should be loaded with it, in my view (although some ore may be of value for understatedly setting off what's in other rifts). I, for one, have very little interest in poems that directly state unsupported opinions and do very little else, as far as I can see, like this one, even if I agree with the opinion, which I don't, in this case. I don't even consider them poems, but pieces of propaganda. > Eternal Poetry > > How to grow old with grace and firmness > Is the kind of eternal problem that poetry > Is best reserved for, unaging poetry > That isn?t afraid of saying what time will do > To our taste and talents, our angles of observation. > As for a local problem mentioned in passing > In this morning?s news, like the cut in food stamps, > It?s handled more effectively in an essay > With graphs and numbers. A poem?s no proper place > To dwell on the prison reforms my friend proposes > Based on his twenty-year stint inside the walls. > In an essay there?s room to go into details > So the State of New York can solve the problem > Once and for all and turn to issues more lasting. > Facing old age, the theme I?m developing here, > Will still be an issue when the failure of prisons > Interests only historians of our backward era. > A poem?s the thing for grappling with the question > Whether it?s best to disdain old age as a pest > Or respect it as a mighty army or welcome it > As a guest with a ton of baggage. Three options > That health-care professionals might deem too harsh > To appear in their journals. I wish they would help > My friend publish his essay on prison reform, > His practical plan to inspire the inmates > By cutting their minimum sentences if they master a trade > So they won?t return, as is likely now, in a year or two. > The odds are long against getting the ear of the governor > But not impossible if he?s only a year from retirement > And old age prompts him to earn a paragraph > In the history of reform. The bill might squeak through > If the Assembly decides it hasn?t the wherewithal > To keep the old prisons in decent repair > Let alone build new ones. No money now > To pay the prison inspector what he deserves > As he makes his rounds in his battered pickup. > An old man shaking his head in disgust > At the roof leaks, peeling plaster, and rusty plumbing > That might have been avoided with a little foresight > And therefore don?t deserve a place in a poem. > And to think he?s been at it for thirty years > Despite his vow, after a month on the job, > To be out of it at the latest by Christmas. > Nobody?s eager to wear his shoes > Unless we count the people inside the walls > Whose envy of those growing old outside > Is a constant always to be relied on, > And so can enter a poem at any time. > > --Carl Dennis. *Practical Gods*. Penguin, 2001. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 14:33:18 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 14:33:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Suggestions for the Evaluation of Poets References: <013b01c42f9b$1c0b3770$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01b001c42faa$c86a1e00$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Yesterday, I said a few words at my blog about why I consider The Academy of American Poets an enemy of poetry. It will amuse many of you to know that along the way I claimed that I'm a better poet than 90% of those in the academy. The real joke is that I don't consider that much of a boast. I know scores of poets who are better poets than 90% of the poets in the Academy of American Poets. Of course, ever the provacateur, I went further, claiming I was as good as any of the rest. (I suspect that many, if they had the courage to admit it in public, would say the same about themselves, so don't feel as conspicuously audacious as I might.) Anyway, I said in my entry that I would be constructive and offer suggestions on how an organization like the Academy of American Poets might improve their selection process (if they wanted to go by excellence). The following is what I wrote on the subject for the entry for today to my blog. As should be obvious, it's a first draft, not only as a piece of writing but as a piece of thinking. No, as a piece of thinking it is something like a hundredth draft, but still far from a final draft. 1 May 2004. The following suggestions for setting up a procedure for evaluating a person's stature as a poet will be dismissed by the stasguards as impractical and foolish, and--for once--they won't be completely wrong. I hope the suggestions will be worthwhile as a first step, though. First off, I would have a list made of all the objectively-determinable ingredients any successful poem must have at least one of. There are those, needless to say, who will claim that no objectively-determinable ingredient of poetry exists. I, however, am going by the sane definition of "objectivity" as maximal reasonable focus on that which is in "the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers," as my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary has it. It needn't have to do only with the readily quantifiable, or that which requires special instruments other than a person's sensory equipment to identify. It needn't, in other words, be scientifically objective (though I believe it could be made so, but won't go into that here). Some of the objectively-determinable ingredients of a successful poem, for me, are: 1 equaphors (my word, to put it roughly, for figures of speech) 2 fresh language 3 melodations (my word for auditory effects such as rhyme and alliteration) 4 pluraesthetic effects (or non-verbal extras such as color or mathematical expressions) 5 connections to archetypes (which would require a special side-list of archetypes) 6 absence of verbal cliches (a subjective but not-too-subjective category since most people with a serious interest in poetry learn to recognize the main cliches of the time fairly quickly 7 adherence to standard grammar, orthography and semantics--or "clarity" 8 cultural allusions 9 focused coherence, or focused adherence to some readily identifiable ubergestalt (or whatever I called it in a recent entry here) 10 classiformularity (my term for having a classical or widely-approved form) 11 specific concrete details 12 ideas That's my off-hand list so far. I hope for a good deal of help in making it complete, and winnowing out anything not belonging on it. My definitions will need help, too, I'm sure. Some of my ingredients may seem unrescuably subjective, but I feel that they can be defined in such a way as to make them objective enough. Once a list is compiled and agreed upon, I suggest that the ratio of the occurences of each ingredient on it to the number of words, or syllables, or even letters, in each poem by the poet being evaluated be determined. Each ratio should be differently weight, some being more important than others. This will be very difficult because in so many cases no much more than a matter of opinion, but--ever the optimist--I believe reasonable people can finally agree closely enough that--for instance--metaphorical richness should count more than good rhymes. Once a poet's main output has been rated, I would rate him on the basis of what an average poem of his scored, plus what his best poem scored, plus how many poems he had composed that were above what experience had shown to be a score only the very best poems attained. His over-all rating would be some kind of combination of the three scores. I wouldn't have his score be the only thing determining whether he should get into some elite organization of poets, though, for I do agree that no mechanical rating system is close to perfect. There will be poets who can score high on any test of this sort, without really composing anything of value just as there are students who can score high on IQ tests and/or get the highest grades possible in classes without really being very bright. So I would continue having votes by other poets count a significant amount. But what other poets? Here's where my list of schools would come in. I would want every school to elect a representative, and have a vote of all the repesentatives taken. That representative's vote might be given a weight equal to the number of people in his school so that the larger schools would have a bigger say than the marginal ones, but he would be required to justify his vote in writing. I would also want votes to be more sophisticated than yes/no--each having some value between zero and a hundred, say. Some combination of a candidate's percentage of votes and test score should be required for him to qualify for entrance into the elite organization (or for some prize, etc.). I would certainly not require every organization to follow my procedure, but at least one. Again, let me emphasize, I don't feel I've presented a blueprint for improving the selection process of an Academy of American Poets, just sketched a start toward such a blueprint. So: please send my your comments and suggestions. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 1 15:14:53 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:14:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Suggestions for the Evaluation of Poets In-Reply-To: <01b001c42faa$c86a1e00$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: I'm sure these must occur in some specific order that you're not letting us in on, right? As numbered? C'mon, we want to know. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard Some of the objectively-determinable ingredients of a successful poem, for me, are: 1 equaphors (my word, to put it roughly, for figures of speech) 2 fresh language 3 melodations (my word for auditory effects such as rhyme and alliteration) 4 pluraesthetic effects (or non-verbal extras such as color or mathematical expressions) 5 connections to archetypes (which would require a special side-list of archetypes) 6 absence of verbal cliches (a subjective but not-too-subjective category since most people with a serious interest in poetry learn to recognize the main cliches of the time fairly quickly 7 adherence to standard grammar, orthography and semantics--or "clarity" 8 cultural allusions 9 focused coherence, or focused adherence to some readily identifiable ubergestalt (or whatever I called it in a recent entry here) 10 classiformularity (my term for having a classical or widely-approved form) 11 specific concrete details 12 ideas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 1 15:18:29 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:18:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] NY Times, gotta love the South! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Ah, the South. { { When taking a sexual history from someone from the Deep South, I am { sometimes tempted to ask, { { "When was your first sexual experience (not counting your family)?" Sorry, can't hep it. This fetches up something my sister passed along a couple weeks ago. See below. Hal ===== HOW TO IDENTIFY WHERE A DRIVER IS FROM... One hand on wheel, one hand on horn: CHICAGO. One hand on wheel, middle finger out window: NEW YORK. One hand on wheel, middle finger out window, cutting across all lanes of traffic: NEW JERSEY. One hand on wheel, one hand on newspaper, foot solidly on accelerator: BOSTON. One hand on wheel, one hand on nonfat double decaf cappuccino, cradling cell phone, brick on accelerator, gun in lap: LOS ANGELES. Both hands on wheel, eyes shut, both feet on brake, quivering in terror: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat May 1 15:23:59 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:23:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Ingredients of an Effective Poem References: Message-ID: <001601c42fb1$dc18b4a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I liked the poem at least somewhat better than Jim did, but I completely foundered, when trying to use your scale, on "Meaning." The categories didn't seem to be mutually exclusive, or entirely inclusive. Why is "ambiguous" a negative quality, garnering only one point? Have we buried Empson so deep? I don't know whether this poem was ambiguous or not. It wasn't ambiguous about its attitude toward the sexes (men one-dimensional, women complex and multifaceted), but it was somewhat ambiguous, unless I'm just a bad reader, about who it was who actually drowned, or when it happened, or how it affected the characters in the poem. Clearer, but to no significant end as far as I was concerned, was the relationship of these women to the narrator. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Ingredients of an Effective Poem Jim, though the scales are based on subjective assessment, I feel you've perhaps judged this poem too harshly. Even a poorly made haiku could get a 4.5. (You're worse than French figure-skating judge.) In "I. Subject Matter" the poem is large. (Loss of love: Complex / Serious perhaps even Universal / Unweildy)...so she's gotta get 2-3 points in her favor...if the subject was the "virtues of writing letters over email" (quotidian) or "whether one should use blue or black ink" (insignificant), you could give her 0-1. Because she's takling one of the big subjects, she's both raised the bar and made it all the more hard for herself to score significantly in these important categories... II Meaning (What can she realize that will be profoud/insightful on this subject?) III Imagery (How will she 'furniture" her poem in such a way to engage the reader's attention?) VI Perspective (How will she come at the subject from new vector?) Secondly, you've pointed out a deficiency in my category II Meanig. "Crytalline" I would reserve for a "multi-faceted, complex brilliance", equal to profound insight. So, next to "Ambigous / Vague" (1 pt), maybe I should insert "Overt," or something like that, to differentiate the the poem that acts as a simply clear "pane" versus one that is in fact a particularly fine "lens" when it comes to meaning. Finnegan In a message dated 4/30/2004 8:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: Here it is applied to today's Poetry Daily. - Jim > >Assay Test for Poetry: If Poem Doesn't Register >A Score of 10 or More, Look Up the Word >"Discernment" &Then Throw It Away??| > >The Tier of "Material"??| > I. Content / Subject Matter > A Small Matter / Quotidian 1 > II. Meaning / Intelligibility > Crystalline / Profound (NOT) 1 A score of 3 is assigned to this quality but obviously the most quotidian of poems can be crystal clear. > III. Imagery > Well-Rendered but Generic 1 >The Tier of "Manner"??| > IV. Music > Complementary 1 1/2 What can I say. The sounds don't offend and they're all definitely from the same piece of cloth. > V. Language > Utilitarian Prose 0 >VI. Perspective > Obvious / Conventional 0 > > Total: 4 1/2 >(Note: Poem cannot get to '10', even with a perfect score >in one tier, unless it pulls down at least 1 point from the other tier.) The poem: Learning by Heart I began to forget him as I wrote, erasing every word he said with a long wave of ink that drowned the sound of his voice and washed away all traces of his hands. It was as if I was wrapping him up in a word and sending the package somewhere far away, as if I was losing claim to his heart the minute I began to say what he meant to me. So, of course, I stopped and began to put the words back into my heart where they belonged, taking up each letter carefully, wiping away the tarnish of ink on the sheen of sound. Afterwards, pasting in the torn pages, recovering as much as possible, I read it over again and again the way one does, realizing, then, the sad necessity of rote. Joyce Sutphen Naming the Stars Holy Cow! Press > >SCORING SYSTEM: >0-4 Give up now; accounting is a fine trade too >5-8 Beginner/remedial coursework required >9-10 Find a master with whom to study. >11-13 Publishable but perishable >14-15 Anthology fodder >16-17 Encamped just below the peak, you prepare for a final sortie to the >summit. >18 Hangin' w/ Milton, Shakespeare &other homies of the Parnassus Posse > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 1 16:01:03 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:01:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks Message-ID: <<< <010501c42f98$9bfba030$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <020c01c42fba$e32323d0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> But, CE, pemlods doesn't mean anything without explanation. "Centrilyrical" also needs some explanation but can serve without any. But maybe I should find a different word than "lyrical" . . . Maybe "centrimodal free verse poetry?" Note: whatever term is used to disguise (Iowa Workshop Poetry," it won't take it long to become a derogation. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 16:29:26 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:29:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Suggestions for the Evaluation of Poets References: Message-ID: <021401c42fbb$00e712f0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I listed them in the order that I thought of them. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Halvard Johnson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:14 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Suggestions for the Evaluation of Poets I'm sure these must occur in some specific order that you're not letting us in on, right? As numbered? C'mon, we want to know. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard Some of the objectively-determinable ingredients of a successful poem, for me, are: 1 equaphors (my word, to put it roughly, for figures of speech) 2 fresh language 3 melodations (my word for auditory effects such as rhyme and alliteration) 4 pluraesthetic effects (or non-verbal extras such as color or mathematical expressions) 5 connections to archetypes (which would require a special side-list of archetypes) 6 absence of verbal cliches (a subjective but not-too-subjective category since most people with a serious interest in poetry learn to recognize the main cliches of the time fairly quickly 7 adherence to standard grammar, orthography and semantics--or "clarity" 8 cultural allusions 9 focused coherence, or focused adherence to some readily identifiable ubergestalt (or whatever I called it in a recent entry here) 10 classiformularity (my term for having a classical or widely-approved form) 11 specific concrete details 12 ideas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 16:46:47 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:46:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks References: Message-ID: <023b01c42fbd$6dfdf1e0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Since the same sort of thing is accomplished by looking at the anthologies, > syllabi, and other critical judgments which allow us to glimpse what "they" > are calling "good" these days--I'm never too tempted toward Olympic or > slam-style judging of poems. To the extent that a scoring instrument > encourages us to forget that all we're doing is summarizing taste at a > particular moment, it misleads. Mine, of course, gets around most of that. > Which is not the same thing as saying I have no taste, no standards, or no > interest in evaluation, I suppose I should mention. > > I tend to favor holistic or narrative evaluations simply because, reading > them, one is not tempted to confuse them with a false objectivity. I am calling for an incomplete objectivity to replace near-total subjectivity (where standards rather than who-you-knowism are referred to, if they are anywhere). So, David, how would you fairly determine a poet's qualifications for entrance into some elite organization of poets? The same way the Academy of American Poets does? --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat May 1 16:43:53 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 13:43:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks References: Message-ID: <40940C09.4A7ED062@earthlink.net> Aargh! Don't mention "rubric" this time of year! Aside from that, I don't take the enterprise seriously. Perhaps another guage is: Would you read the poem again and, if so, would it then surprise you in any way? The poem in question doesn't lift off the page; or, in this case, off the screen. Read once and forget. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > I have nothing against playing these games of judging poems, though I like > some games more than others. > > To Tad's sensible quibbles I would add one more, but it's a big one. > > One of the dangers of using any rubric (numerical or otherwise) to evaluate > poetry is that there is a strong tendency to forget, once the scores are in, > that all you've done is present bunch of educated guesses, blatant biases, > fashionable assumptions, and other shots in the dark as if they mean > something "objectively". They don't. What they do is provide a perhaps > convenient shorthand description of taste. > > Since the same sort of thing is accomplished by looking at the anthologies, > syllabi, and other critical judgments which allow us to glimpse what "they" > are calling "good" these days--I'm never too tempted toward Olympic or > slam-style judging of poems. To the extent that a scoring instrument > encourages us to forget that all we're doing is summarizing taste at a > particular moment, it misleads. > > Which is not the same thing as saying I have no taste, no standards, or no > interest in evaluation, I suppose I should mention. > > I tend to favor holistic or narrative evaluations simply because, reading > them, one is not tempted to confuse them with a false objectivity. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 16:49:12 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:49:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks Message-ID: <98.9b0cb99.2dc56748@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2004 4:00:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > One of the dangers of using any rubric (numerical or otherwise) to evaluate > poetry is that there is a strong tendency to forget, once the scores are in, > that all you've done is present bunch of educated guesses, blatant biases, > fashionable assumptions, and other shots in the dark as if they mean > something "objectively". They don't. What they do is provide a perhaps > convenient shorthand description of taste. > David, I conceded that point already. Also, that this was meant more as a personal test (challenge) of one's output. And it was squasi-serious, not a true insturment: How could anyone take the grading system otherwise. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 16:51:13 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:51:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Poems of Mine Just Posted References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040501082815.00b7ecd8@incoming.verizon.net> <4093CFEE.58671666@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <024601c42fbe$0e0a3c20$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> For the curious, 11 Poem poems of mine have just been published on the Internet at: http://www.stickspress.com/grummanc.html#target --Bob G. . From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 16:55:25 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:55:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks Message-ID: <30.555773e1.2dc568bd@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2004 4:48:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > Aside from that, I don't take the enterprise seriously. Perhaps another > guage is: Would you read the poem again and, if so, would it then > surprise you in any way? The poem in question doesn't lift off the > page; or, in this case, off the screen. Read once and forget. > Jim, that makes me think of another good test for poetry in our time: Would you take the effort to cut & paste it, and save it to file? As cheap as disk space these days, would it warrant xxKB of memory on your machine? Jim F -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 17:02:56 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:02:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] bangs the drum for accessible poetry Message-ID: <133.2e68c1a7.2dc56a80@aol.com> Former poet laureate bangs the drum for accessible poetry 02:28 PM CDT on Friday, April 30, 2004 By BILL MARVEL / The Dallas Morning News Billy Collins, who will be reading his poetry Saturday at Arts & Letters Live, is bringing a piece of Dallas with him. Or at least a piece of the Dallas Museum of Art. The former U.S. poet laureate, whose works are so popular that publishers have battled over the right to reprint them, was asked by A&LL producer Carolyn Bess to pick some painting or sculpture from the museum's catalog and write a poem about it. The resulting work, "Lost in Paris," will lead off his program. "Usually I don't do very well on assignment," the poet said by phone from his home in New York's Westchester County. "I don't do well with a water pistol pointed to my temple." But in February when Mr. Collins and his wife fled to Puerto Rico during a particularly harsh winter, he took the museum catalog. "I thumbed through the book on the beach and found this beautiful Piet Mondrian painting, Place de la Concord," Mr. Collins says. Place is a fine example of Mondrian's late work, a grid of horizontal and vertical lines, mostly black on white, but with touches of red, yellow and blue -- "a little like the artist's dazzling Broadway Boogie Woogie," the poet says, "but without the boogie-woogie." The conceit of the poem is that a visitor to Paris is trying to find the Place de la Concord, the public square that offers so many handsome views of the city. "He stops somebody on the street and asks, and it turns out to be Piet Mondrian. Instead of giving directions, he whips out an easel and paints." Anything can happen Such mind-bending fancies are familiar to Mr. Collins' readers: A barking dog becomes part of a Beethoven symphony, the Buddha shovels snow from a driveway, the ladies in a Victoria's Secret catalog come to life. "I like to write poems that have a kind of conceptual trick to them," he says. "Starting with a simple assurance is a good way to get the reader to step into the poem, then changing the rules throws the reader off balance. Basically, the uncertainty I would like to develop in the reader is not knowing how serious the poem is." For all their whimsy, his poems are about as serious as any "serious" poetry that deals with the workings of human perception, the passage of time and death. This deceptive simplicity and playfulness have won Mr. Collins numerous awards, a wide circle of fans -- John Updike is said to be an admirer -- and a huge (for a poet) reading public. When Random House paid a six-figure advance for Mr. Collins' next three books, one of them to include a selection of past works, his former publisher, University of Pittsburgh Press, refused to relinquish rights to some 40 or 50 published poems. They were, they argued, losing one of their moneymakers. Not our poems, you don't "The poems were basically held hostage," Mr. Collins says. "They wanted to charge Random House $212,000. That held up publication two years." The impasse was resolved for considerably less, he says, and the collection of new and selected poems, Sailing Alone Around the Room is doing a brisk business (at $13.95 paperback). Not everyone is captivated by Mr. Collins, however. British critic Jeremy Noel-Tod called him "childishly whimsical." And American poet Charles Bernstein complained in a Harper's magazine review that Mr. Collins' language "rarely deviates from go-ahead grammar, and never attempts the compact rearrangement of language potential in a verse line." "The truth is," Mr. Collins replies, "critics are bothered not by my whimsy, but by my popularity." Tooting what he calls "the loud horn of the vernacular" is a reaction to the kind of poetry he says he was writing in college. "I was brought up on the Mount Rushmore of modern giants." Anyone who has slogged through the allusions in Ezra Pound's Cantos or puzzled over the tangled knots of meaning in a Wallace Stevens poem will sympathize. "I committed those sins of obscurity myself," he says. "I bought the connection between difficulty and value that was involved in these very difficult poets." "It took to my 30s to get rid of this." Poetry to the people The movement away from difficult poetry that began in the 1960s carried Mr. Collins along with it. So has the growing appetite for poetry that has come out of hip-hop, poetry "slams" and the tireless proselytizing for poetry by Robert Pinsky, Mr. Collin's predecessor as poet laureate. "It's easier to write poetry now," Mr. Collins says. "I don't know if the poetry's any better. But it's an interesting time to be a poet." With fame and a growing audience have come the personal appearances (on public radio's A Prairie Home Companion, for example) and the readings. "I used to be like most unschooled or untheatrical of people, a nervous wreck. My mouth was so dry I could barely speak. I learned to relax and enjoy it. But it doesn't affect the writing. I think of the poems as very intimate communication, a whispered confidence between two people. "I don't write for the podium, I write for the page." E-mail bmarvel at dallasnews.com Billy Collins, 7:30 p.m. Saturday, Horchow Auditorium, Dallas Museum of Art, 1717 N. Harwood St. $25 ($20 for museum members, Friends of the Dallas Public Library, seniors, teachers, students and librarians). 214 922-1220 or 214 922-1219 or go to www.DallasMuseumofArt.org/artsandletterslive.htm 'Another Reason Why I Don't Keep a Gun in the House' The neighbors' dog will not stop barking. He is barking the same high, rhythmic bark that he barks every time they leave the house. They must switch him on on their way out. The neighbors' dog will not stop barking. I close all the windows in the house and put on a Beethoven symphony full blast but I can still hear him muffled under the music, barking, barking, barking, and now I can see him sitting in the orchestra, his head raised confidently as if Beethoven had included a part for barking dog. When the record finally ends he is still barking, sitting there in the oboe section barking, his eyes fixed on the conductor who is entreating him with his baton while the other musicians listen in respectful silence to the famous barking dog solo, that endless coda that first established Beethoven as an innovative genius. Billy Collins from Sailing Alone Around the Room, previously published in The Apple That Astonished Paris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 17:11:02 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:11:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks References: <40940C09.4A7ED062@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <026401c42fc0$d11be8b0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Aargh! Don't mention "rubric" this time of year! > > Aside from that, I don't take the enterprise seriously. Perhaps another > guage is: Would you read the poem again and, if so, would it then > surprise you in any way? The poem in question doesn't lift off the > page; or, in this case, off the screen. Read once and forget. > > - Jim > In other words, if you like it, you like it. But what do you tell the poet, if perchance you want to help him: "Your poem didn't make me want to read it again?" In the little poetry commentary I get published, I often write of a poem I like that it's something I would expect most readers would want to return to often. I consider that only cheerleading, though. If I have space enough to say something meaningful, I try to tell what exactly it is that makes me want to return to the poem. I'm not sure "surprise" is what I want--it's more the certainty that exploration of the poem will take me to significant new places. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 17:12:45 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:12:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks References: <98.9b0cb99.2dc56748@aol.com> Message-ID: <027401c42fc1$0e68a870$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> One of the dangers of using any rubric (numerical or otherwise) to evaluate poetry is that there is a strong tendency to forget, once the scores are in, that all you've done is present bunch of educated guesses, blatant biases, fashionable assumptions, and other shots in the dark as if they mean something "objectively". They don't. What they do is provide a perhaps convenient shorthand description of taste. David, I conceded that point already. Also, that this was meant more as a personal test (challenge) of one's output. And it was squasi-serious, not a true insturment: How could anyone take the grading system otherwise. Finnegan By having an analytical turn of mind, as I say most New-Poetry people do not have to the extent I do, a point verified with just about every post made since I said that. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 17:17:44 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:17:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Name for Iowa Workshop Poem References: <4093A58F.86D61E97@earthlink.net> <010501c42f98$9bfba030$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <020c01c42fba$e32323d0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <027a01c42fc1$c04382e0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > But, CE, pemlods doesn't mean anything without explanation. "Centrilyrical" > also needs some explanation but can serve without any. But maybe I should > find a different word than "lyrical" . . . Maybe "centrimodal free verse > poetry?" > > Note: whatever term is used to disguise (Iowa Workshop Poetry," it won't > take it long to become a derogation.) > > --Bob G. > > ******************** > > Songs of Myself? > > Narcissisticquotidiansemi-lyricalreality-basednarrativeswithcrackerjackepiph > anies? > > Ah, I feel sorry for you. Your left hemisphere will never be able to > taxonomize the vagaries of this craft or sullen art. More accurately, the right hemispheres, to use your metaphor, of the majority of poets will never allow them to accept my taxonimization of their "mystic" art. > Here's an old poem, probably written by a depressive doctor, on the > limitations of our analytic hemisphere: How about one equally good on the limitations of intuition? --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 17:32:06 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:32:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Ingredients of an Effective Poem Message-ID: <1c7.18830c28.2dc57156@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/2004 3:24:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > I liked the poem at least somewhat better than Jim did, but I completely > foundered, when trying to use your scale, on "Meaning." The categories didn't > seem to be mutually exclusive, or entirely inclusive. > > Why is "ambiguous" a negative quality, garnering only one point? Have we > buried Empson so deep? I don't know whether this poem was ambiguous or not. It > wasn't ambiguous about its attitude toward the sexes (men one-dimensional, > women complex and multifaceted), but it was somewhat ambiguous, unless I'm just > a bad reader, about who it was who actually drowned, or when it happened, or > how it affected the characters in the poem. Clearer, but to no significant > end as far as I was concerned, was the relationship of these women to the > narrator. > Tad, that's a good question. Again, this is measurement based on "words" and we'd each choose different adjectives/nouns of value/denigration to construct our personal systems. But, "ambiguous" for me was another way of saying the poem had not come across in any "meaningful" way. It was either this or that (and neither much mattered). Ambiguity that is inherent in the response to the subject, the psychologically conflicted response, might be a good thing. I not much of a believer in "reader-response" theory but I'm reminded of what Lowell said about his poem "Skunk Hour": (Paraphrasing) "The advantage of writing in an ambiguous style is that one reviewer, Richard Wilbur, called the skunks in my poem 'cheerful emanations of spring', while John Berryman referred to them as 'frozen apparitions of terror'. " Of course that's what the readers were bringing to the material, but the only thing that was there was a skunk and there was no mistaking a skunk with its nose in a sour-crream container for an opossum or a homeless rag-pickers. In that way there was no ambiguity. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 18:45:33 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 18:45:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] architectural poem Message-ID: <135.2e614c0b.2dc5828d@aol.com> A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt) The rough graphite drawings show the roof lifting off, hovering, suspended above a glass enclosure. "Universal space," as Mies referred to it. What small city would not want this airy structure to grace a park or central square? Perhaps it was too elegant, too precious a building for an American city's spiky backbone of church spires and smokestacks. Or maybe no small city could afford the art that would have to live up to this place, exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes. Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago, for Rome, not for Knoxville or Des Moines. So now this museum exists only as a thatch of pencil marks. And perhaps all art is locked away in this imagined space, which is that ache of what it is and what we wanted it to be. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat May 1 18:48:17 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:48:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks References: <30.555773e1.2dc568bd@aol.com> Message-ID: <40942931.3B0B5322@earthlink.net> > > In a message dated 5/1/2004 4:48:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > Aside from that, I don't take the enterprise seriously. Perhaps another > guage is: Would you read the poem again and, if so, would it then > surprise you in any way? The poem in question doesn't lift off the > page; or, in this case, off the screen. Read once and forget. > > > > Jim, that makes me think of another good test for poetry in our time: > Would you take the effort to cut & paste it, and save it to file? > As cheap as disk space these days, would it warrant xxKB of memory > on your machine? > Jim F Nope, neither Friday's nor today's. Awful, isn't it? But, if those two poems came to me as part of submissions, I'd recognize that the poets know what they're doing and are fine craftspersons. But, finally, there's more craft than . . . dare I say it . . . art/poetry. IN THOSE TWO POEMS. I wouldn't be surprised to find another poem or two that stays with me. - Jim From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat May 1 18:51:07 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 15:51:07 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks References: <40940C09.4A7ED062@earthlink.net> <026401c42fc0$d11be8b0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409429DB.878F6AF0@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Aargh! Don't mention "rubric" this time of year! > > > > Aside from that, I don't take the enterprise seriously. Perhaps another > > guage is: Would you read the poem again and, if so, would it then > > surprise you in any way? The poem in question doesn't lift off the > > page; or, in this case, off the screen. Read once and forget. > > > > - Jim > > > In other words, if you like it, you like it. But what do you tell the poet, > if perchance you want to help him: "Your poem didn't make me want to read it > again?" Well, that's between me and them and I sure wouldn't want to do a pretend response at the moment. - Jim From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 19:12:45 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:12:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Poems of Mine-- Congrats, Bob! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040501082815.00b7ecd8@incoming.verizon.net> <4093CFEE.58671666@earthlink.net> <024601c42fbe$0e0a3c20$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001b01c42fd1$d1cdc3d0$6aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Congrats, Bob! > It's good to see you maintain a sense of humor in this age. Poem on the > toilet at the end made me smile. > Sort of Hughes meets Berryman with the visual quotient jacked way up. Sort of. Both are in it. > Henry Crow? But Crazy Jane, too--and the man with the blue guitar. > Enjoyed, > > CE Thanks. --Bob G. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 2:51 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Poems of Mine Just Posted > > > | For the curious, 11 Poem poems of mine have just been published on the > | Internet at: > | > | http://www.stickspress.com/grummanc.html#target > | > | --Bob G. > | > | . > | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | New-Poetry mailing list > | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > | > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 19:12:49 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:12:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] DJ ends Nat'l Poetry Month Message-ID: <45.ac4b3f8.2dc588f1@aol.com> This final poem is by Donald Justice, whose COLLECTED POEMS will be published by Knopf in August. *************************************** Nostalgia of the Lakefronts Cities burn behind us; the lake glitters. A tall loudspeaker is announcing prizes; Another, by the lake, the times of cruises. Childhood, once vast with terrors and surprises, Is fading to a landscape deep with distance? And always the sad piano in the distance, Faintly in the distance, a ghostly tinkling (O indecipherable blurred harmonies) Or some far horn repeating over water Its high lost note, cut loose from all harmonies. At such times, wakeful, a child will dream the world, And this is the world we run to from the world. Or the two worlds come together and are one On dark, sweet afternoons of storm and of rain, And stereopticons brought out and dusted, Stacks of old Geographics, or, through the rain, A mad wet dash to the local movie palace And the shriek, perhaps, of Kane's white cockatoo. (Would this have been summer, 1942?) By June the city always seems neurotic. But lakes are good all summer for reflection, And ours is famed among painters for its blues, Yet not entirely sad, upon reflection. Why sad at all? Is their wish so unique? To anthropomorphize the inanimate With a love that masquerades as pure technique? O art and the child were innocent together! But landscapes grow abstract, like aging parents. Soon now the war will shutter the grand hotels, And we, when we come back, will come as parents. There are no lanterns now strung between pines? Only, like history, the stark bare northern pines. And after a time the lakefront disappears Into the stubborn verses of its exiles Or a few gifted sketches of old piers. It rains perhaps on the other side of the heart; Then we remember, whether we would or no. ?Nostalgia comes with the smell of rain, you know. *************************************** From COLLECTED POEMS by Donald Justice copyright 2004. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** Related links: About Donald Justice: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeZl0DXKYc0Wa0U2H0Au Pre-order a copy of Justice's COLLECTED POEMS online: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeZl0DXKYc0Wa0U2I0Av Print another Donald Justice poem as a broadside (Adobe PDF required): http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeZl0DXKYc0Wa0U2J0Aw Discuss "Nostalgia of the Lakefronts" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeZl0DXKYc0Wa0TtQ0AA Thank you for participating in Knopf's Poem-a-Day program. Many of you sent wonderful feedback about the poetry, and we hope you continue to stay in touch. As long as you remain on our mailing list, you'll receive one poem from Knopf per month. (To unsubscribe, send a blank email to unsub_knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com.) Until next time, The Knopf Poetry Center knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 1 19:16:26 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:16:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rude Bricks References: <40940C09.4A7ED062@earthlink.net> <026401c42fc0$d11be8b0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409429DB.878F6AF0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002d01c42fd2$5549bcf0$6aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > Aargh! Don't mention "rubric" this time of year! > > > > > > Aside from that, I don't take the enterprise seriously. Perhaps another > > > guage is: Would you read the poem again and, if so, would it then > > > surprise you in any way? The poem in question doesn't lift off the > > > page; or, in this case, off the screen. Read once and forget. > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > In other words, if you like it, you like it. But what do you tell the poet, > > if perchance you want to help him: "Your poem didn't make me want to read it > > again?" > > Well, that's between me and them and I sure wouldn't want to do a > pretend response at the moment. > > - Jim But couldn't you say way kind of remark you might make? Or at least that you might be able to go beyond I like or don't like this poem by specifying something concrete in it that was valuable or not valuable? --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 1 19:36:45 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:36:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] THE GIRL WITH BEES IN HER HAIR Message-ID: <132.2ddc95df.2dc58e8d@aol.com> Eleanor Wilner's latest book THE GIRL WITH BEES IN HER HAIR now available at your local bookstore from Copper Canyon Press http://www.coppercanyonpress.org/ "Eleanor Wilner's sudden flights of lyricism are disarming and dazzling." --The New York Times Book Review see for yourself: from the book: Interview Q. Who are your influences? A. The poet who dressed in white and stayed in her room, The one who wore a turban, rings, and famously took to her bed, The one who killed herself, again and again, till she got it right: These are the ones who showed me what I should not do. Q. What is your personal iconography? A. The skull in the sand a palace for the ants; the portholes Of the sunken ship turned into portals for fish; The lifeline of a phrase tossed over the abyss. Q. What can you tell us about your personal history? A. Does the rain have a mother? Is the mole the explicator of the lawn? (The dancer keeps the mask for calling in the gods.) Is the fire by night as bright at dawn? Q. What are your views about form? A. The window frames a view, but then Outside the frame is an immensity of blue. The notion of immensity depends upon the frame. Whatever we name, we exceed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat May 1 20:39:09 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:39:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Ingredients of an Effective Poem Message-ID: <2880-220045020399969@M2W076.mail2web.com> Jim - I wasn't so much criticizing your system, just saying that I couldn't use it -- and I tried. I don't think this is a knock on the system, and I hope it's not a knock on me, Just a bad fit. We all come into this house through different second story windows. I've never quite been able to figure out what "reader-response" criticism is, but Lowell does kind of give you a stiuation where invites and allows the reader a range of emotional responses to the skunks. The fun one, in this regard, is Creeley's "I Know a Man," where everybody and his brother interprets it one way, Creeley very definitely meant it another way, and everybody and his brother probably have the stronger claim on the most valid interpretation. Original Message: ----------------- From: JforJames at aol.com Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 17:32:06 EDT To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Ingredients of an Effective Poem In a message dated 5/1/2004 3:24:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > I liked the poem at least somewhat better than Jim did, but I completely > foundered, when trying to use your scale, on "Meaning." The categories didn't > seem to be mutually exclusive, or entirely inclusive. > > Why is "ambiguous" a negative quality, garnering only one point? Have we > buried Empson so deep? I don't know whether this poem was ambiguous or not. It > wasn't ambiguous about its attitude toward the sexes (men one-dimensional, > women complex and multifaceted), but it was somewhat ambiguous, unless I'm just > a bad reader, about who it was who actually drowned, or when it happened, or > how it affected the characters in the poem. Clearer, but to no significant > end as far as I was concerned, was the relationship of these women to the > narrator. > Tad, that's a good question. Again, this is measurement based on "words" and we'd each choose different adjectives/nouns of value/denigration to construct our personal systems. But, "ambiguous" for me was another way of saying the poem had not come across in any "meaningful" way. It was either this or that (and neither much mattered). Ambiguity that is inherent in the response to the subject, the psychologically conflicted response, might be a good thing. I not much of a believer in "reader-response" theory but I'm reminded of what Lowell said about his poem "Skunk Hour": (Paraphrasing) "The advantage of writing in an ambiguous style is that one reviewer, Richard Wilbur, called the skunks in my poem 'cheerful emanations of spring', while John Berryman referred to them as 'frozen apparitions of terror'. " Of course that's what the readers were bringing to the material, but the only thing that was there was a skunk and there was no mistaking a skunk with its nose in a sour-crream container for an opossum or a homeless rag-pickers. In that way there was no ambiguity. Finnegan -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat May 1 20:41:48 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:41:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] THE GIRL WITH BEES IN HER HAIR Message-ID: <115380-2200450204148660@M2W062.mail2web.com> The mole IS the explicator of the lawn. Original Message: ----------------- From: JforJames at aol.com Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 19:36:45 EDT To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] THE GIRL WITH BEES IN HER HAIR Eleanor Wilner's latest book THE GIRL WITH BEES IN HER HAIR now available at your local bookstore from Copper Canyon Press http://www.coppercanyonpress.org/ "Eleanor Wilner's sudden flights of lyricism are disarming and dazzling." --The New York Times Book Review see for yourself: from the book: Interview Q. Who are your influences? A. The poet who dressed in white and stayed in her room, The one who wore a turban, rings, and famously took to her bed, The one who killed herself, again and again, till she got it right: These are the ones who showed me what I should not do. Q. What is your personal iconography? A. The skull in the sand a palace for the ants; the portholes Of the sunken ship turned into portals for fish; The lifeline of a phrase tossed over the abyss. Q. What can you tell us about your personal history? A. Does the rain have a mother? Is the mole the explicator of the lawn? (The dancer keeps the mask for calling in the gods.) Is the fire by night as bright at dawn? Q. What are your views about form? A. The window frames a view, but then Outside the frame is an immensity of blue. The notion of immensity depends upon the frame. Whatever we name, we exceed. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun May 2 08:52:24 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 08:52:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Poems of Mine Just Posted In-Reply-To: <024601c42fbe$0e0a3c20$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <8EE7C57C-9C37-11D8-A8CB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> http://www.stickspress.com/grummanc.html#target The Final Meaninglessness Deep in the October sun's now-alto understanding of a lakeside park Poem sat meditating on his life, aware of the final meaninglessness that all his many meanings would eventually lead to, but not caring, the park's maples, birches and pines ampling him forever too large for that as their appreciation of the sun trembled into, and partook of, the sun's understanding of them. Bob Grumman ----- Bravo, Bob. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. --Rumi From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 2 11:02:00 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 11:02:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Poems of Mine Just Posted References: <8EE7C57C-9C37-11D8-A8CB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <009901c43056$815860b0$84efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hey, thanks, Wendy. That's one I always thought came off well--epiphanies within epiphanies! If not for the third-person persona who is really first-person (and I think was in the first version), this poem, I think, would be 100% Iowa Workshop Poem, or Centrimodal Free Verse Poem. --Bob G. > http://www.stickspress.com/grummanc.html#target > > The Final Meaninglessness > > Deep in the October sun's now-alto > understanding of a lakeside park > Poem sat meditating on his life, > aware of the final meaninglessness > that all his many meanings > would eventually lead to, > but not caring, > the park's maples, birches and pines > ampling him forever too large for that > as their appreciation of the sun > trembled into, and partook of, > the sun's understanding of them. > > Bob Grumman > ----- > > Bravo, Bob. > > Wendy > > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > > Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. > --Rumi > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun May 2 12:41:50 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 09:41:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] lhgtli revised In-Reply-To: <200404151244.i3FCi1XE015931@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040502093805.00b7e918@incoming.verizon.net> The Final Meaninglessness (give-him-a-prize version) Deep in the October sun's now-alto understanding of a lakeside park Grumman sat meditating on his life, aware of the final meaninglessness that all his many meanings would eventually lead to, but not caring, the park's maples, birches and pines ampling him forever too large for that as their appreciation of the sun trembled into, and partook of, the sun's understanding of them. Bob Grumman (improving-tweak by B. Spacks) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun May 2 12:44:16 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 09:44:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] lhgtli revised Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040502094404.00b8caf8@incoming.verizon.net> The Final Meaninglessness (give-him-a-prize version) Deep in the October sun's now-alto understanding of a lakeside park Grumman sat meditating on his life, aware of the final meaninglessness that all his many meanings would eventually lead to, but not caring, the park's maples, birches and pines ampling him forever too large for that as their appreciation of the sun trembled into, and partook of, the sun's understanding of them. Bob Grumman (improving-tweak by B. Spacks) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 2 14:53:32 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 14:53:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] lhgtli revised References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040502094404.00b8caf8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <014901c43076$c5d28980$84efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> No, no, Barry, it's still third-person. It should be:] lhgtli revised The Final Meaninglessness (give-him-a-prize version) Deep in the October sun's now-alto understanding of a lakeside park I sat meditating on my life, aware of the final meaninglessness that all my many meanings would eventually lead to, but not caring, the park's maples, birches and pines ampling me forever too large for that as their appreciation of the sun trembled into, and partook of, the sun's understanding of them. Bob Grumman (improving-tweak by B. Spacks, with correction by B. Grumman) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sbmontana at gmail.com Sun May 2 19:18:46 2004 From: sbmontana at gmail.com (Sharon Brogan) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 17:18:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NY Times, gotta love the South! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 May 2004 15:18:29 -0400, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > Both hands on wheel, eyes shut, both feet on brake, quivering in terror: > From MONTANA, but driving in CALIFORNIA. heh From sbmontana at gmail.com Sun May 2 19:21:33 2004 From: sbmontana at gmail.com (Sharon Brogan) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 17:21:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Buke, kpaul, and Sharon: In-Reply-To: <20040426202113.D29117@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <11c.2e4fd8d1.2dbd5eb0@cs.com> <20040425140316.W56281@kpaul.spinweb.net> <20040426202113.D29117@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: This conversation is starred for me to get back to when I have time to consider it as it deserves . . . > > But wouldn't one prefer to scream Ginsberg and read Eliot quietly? I'd like > > to see a list of our "print" vs. "aural" (or spoken) poet preferences, i.e. > > what poetry we prefer to read, what we prefer to hear, and what poetry meets > > both criteria. > > > Your thoughts? From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 2 21:29:47 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 21:29:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The San Juan Workshops Message-ID: July 10-18, 2004 Faculty, 2004: Ellen Bass, Robert Olen Butler, Scott Cairns, Dennis Covington , Lee Gutkind, Li-Young Lee, Lee Martin, Melanie Rae Thon, Susan Vreeland $100 Scholarships: Apply by May 15th, 2004 Please share with your students and other writers the information below about The San Juan Writers? Workshops. This year we will be offering nine $100 scholarships, one per faculty. Participants must apply by May 15th to be considered for the scholarships. We will send out an email announcement concerning these workshops only once a year, but if you wish to be removed from our email list, please send us an email with "unsubscribe" in the subject window, and we will gladly do so. If we have duplicated your name in our database, we also apologize. Please inform us, and we will correct that problem asap. We apologize if we have inconvenienced you in any way. Thank you? Jill Patterson Director The San Juan Workshops July 10-18, 2004 Faculty, 2004: Ellen Bass, Robert Olen Butler, Scott Cairns, Dennis Covington , Lee Gutkind, Li-Young Lee, Lee Martin, Melanie Rae Thon, Susan Vreeland, I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately. --Henry David Thoreau The goal of the San Juan Workshops is to remove writers from the hectic pace of everyday life and give them the inspiration, space, and quiet to attend to their writing. The Workshops are held for one week, each summer, in Ouray, Colorado?the Switzerland of America. In this cozy mountain village, everything is within walking-distance, including the Ouray Hot Springs Pool, Cascade Falls, the local movie theater in the historical Wright Opera House, several fine restaurants, lodging, and the Community Center where workshop events take place. We work hard in the daytime and participate in local events in the evening? soaking in the hot springs, listening to blue grass in the local park, playing bingo at the Elks lodge, and visiting Silverton (an old mining town). Annual social events include the San Juan Workshop Bar Crawl, Jeep Mountain Tour, and Champagne Brunch. The 2004 Sessions Because each session concludes before the other begins, participants may enroll in one or in multiple sessions. Tuition covers workshop instruction, faculty readings, breakfast each day, and admission to all receptions. Session One: Generating New Material (July 10-12) If you?re suffering from writer?s block or if you?ve recently finished one project and can?t quite start another, Session One will fire you up again. When you leave this workshop, you?ll have completed five to six poems, one story, or one essay, and you?ll have a notebook of ideas to work on when you get home. We?ll even supply the notebook! The Faculty Fiction: Melanie Rae Thon?s most recent book is the novel, Sweet Hearts. She is also the author of Meteors in August and Iona Moon, and the story collections entitled, First, Body and Girls in the Grass. Her fiction has been included in Best American Short Stories (1995 and 1996). Nonfiction: Lee Martin is the author of a collection of personal essays entitled Turning Bones and of the memoir entitled From Our House. Awards for his work include the Mary McCarthy Prize, The Lawrence Foundation Award, and a fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts. Poetry Workshop: Ellen Bass's most recent book of poetry Mules of Love was published by BOA Editions and won the 2002 Lambda Literary Award for Poetry. In 1973, she co-edited the groundbreaking book, No More Masks!: An Anthology of Poems by Women and has published four other volumes of poetry. Session Two: Craft and Critique (July 12-16) During this workshop, participants will discuss the techniques of great contemporary writers and how they can incorporate these techniques in their own original work. Afterward, faculty and participants will workshop their manuscripts, approaching their projects with a new, expanded perspective. The session will end with a two-hour panel on publishing. The Faculty Fiction: Robert Olen Butler has published eleven books since 1981, including Countrymen of Bones, On Distant Ground, They Whisper, The Deep Green Sea, Tabloid Dreams, and A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain, which won the 1993 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction. His newest collection of short fiction, Had a Good Time, will be published in 2004. Nonfiction: Lee Gutkind is founder and editor of the popular journal, Creative Nonfiction. His works of nonfiction include Forever Fat: Essays by the Godfather, Many Sleepless Nights, An Unspoken Art, and The Best Seat in Baseball, but You Have to Stand! Gutkind pioneered the language we use to talk about creative nonfiction as well as the compelling literary techniques we use to teach the writing of it. Poetry: Scott Cairns is the author of five collections of poetry, The Theology of Doubt, The Translation of Babel, Figures for the Ghost, Recovered Body, and, most recently, Philokalia: New & Selected Poems. His poetry has been included in Best Spiritual Writing (1998 and 2000), The Pushcart Prize XXVI, and The Best of PrairieSchooner. Session Three: Revising and Submitting for Publication (July 16-18). If you can write first drafts but have difficulty polishing them and sending them off for publication, Session Three will offer you specific exercises to help with the revision process, and there?s a panel where faculty from Session Two and Three will spend two hours talking about nothing but how to publish your work. The Faculty Fiction: Susan Vreeland is the author of three novels, Girl in Hyacinth Blue, The Passion of Artemisia, and The Forest Lover?her latest novel which has just been released. Vreeland's novels have been translated into twenty languages, and her short fiction has appeared in Ploughshares, New England Review, The Missouri Review, and others. Nonfiction: Dennis Covington is the author of several books of creative nonfiction and memoir: Salvation on Sand Mountain (which was a finalist for the National Book Award); Cleaving: The Story of a Marriage; and his latest, Redneck Riviera: Armadillos, Outlaws, and the Demise of an American Dream. Poetry: Li-Young Lee has published three books of poetry: Book of My Nights (BOA Editions, 2001), Rose (Boa Editions, 1986), and The City in Which I Love You (BOA, 1990). His poems have also appeared in Iowa Review, The American Poetry Review, and several Pushcart anthologies. Scholarships Inkwell Literary Services will award nine $100 scholarships?one per session, per faculty member. Applicants who wish to be considered for the scholarships must submit application materials by May 15th. The scholarships will be applied to balance of tuition; deposits must be paid first. Scholarships will be given based on need as well as merit. For more information or to register online, visit our website: www.homepage.mac.com/inkwellliterary. Or email inkwellliterary at mac.com. Or phone: (806)438-2385. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 2 21:48:52 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 21:48:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <1c8.18a28646.2dc6ff04@aol.com> http://www.foetry.com Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Exposing the fraudulent "contests." Tracking the sycophants. Naming names. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 2 22:40:14 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:40:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <1c8.18a28646.2dc6ff04@aol.com> Message-ID: <008f01c430b7$f80bd550$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Good site. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 9:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog http://www.foetry.com Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Exposing the fraudulent "contests." Tracking the sycophants. Naming names. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 3 07:02:09 2004 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 07:02:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000b01c430fe$180f7870$6501a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: B as in Baseball: Bob Perelman (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Performing punctuation by hand - Susan Stewart (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) A rock lyric from Paul Muldoon (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) The alphabet as leveler or as mode of permission - the implications of the Rosenbach Alphabet Jack Foley on Jake Berry CA Conrad reading runes (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Salmoning with Daisy Fried (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Linh Dinh is back - X marks the spot (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Recent events in criticism - Hank Lazer, Joan Houlihan et al & Watten wins the Wellek The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Rachel Blau DuPlessis on Kith & Kin (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Mmmm, she writes - Nathalie Anderson (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Who dies as Bush lies? If I had a billboard . . . . (from "9 for 9") Explaining poetry to extraterrestrials (from "9 for 9") http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ * * * My latest book Woundwood is available from Cuneiform Press: http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon May 3 08:25:16 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 05:25:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <1c8.18a28646.2dc6ff04@aol.com> Message-ID: <40963A2C.7A37D0A0@earthlink.net> Hmm, verrry interesting. We'll no doubt hear from Bob Grumman re the focus on Iowa Workshop names. But, I'm sure one could find in those lists clusters of graduates from other stellar MFA programs. - Jim JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > http://www.foetry.com > Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog > Exposing the fraudulent "contests." > Tracking the sycophants. > Naming names. From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 3 12:32:03 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 12:32:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <14.287fda10.2dc7ce03@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/04 8:30:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > Hmm, verrry interesting. We'll no doubt hear from Bob Grumman re the > focus on Iowa Workshop names. But, I'm sure one could find in those > lists clusters of graduates from other stellar MFA programs. It's perhaps true that much of this prize-winning book publication is now a form of vanity publishing, with a financing scheme that doesn't require the author's money directly but takes in money in the form of tuition to the right school, and with an additional subsidy provided by other entrant to the contest who were unaware that the fix was in. I say "vanity publishing" because it seems there are now presses where the publisher isn't willing to "invest in" an author's book outside of publishing it under a contest format with entry-fee financing. Finnegan From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon May 3 12:56:46 2004 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 11:56:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2DA@mail.ripon.edu> I'm not eager to speak up for the current system of publication-by-contest, but for good or ill that's the system we now have. And it would be naive to suppose, given the numbers, that without submission fees there would be anywhere near the number of opportunities to publish as there now are. If people in great numbers bought poetry books it might be otherwise, but. . . . Hell, if *poets* bought more poetry books! . . . I believe most contests are honest and fair. There are exceptions, naturally, and once you've been rejected in a rigged contest, after shelling out a hefty reading fee, of course you're justified in being a little bitter. Hence a site like Foetry. But as has been pointed out on another list, Foetry is disturbingly slapdash in the way it's run, allowing unsubstantiated rumors to thrive and innuendo to smear publishers and judges who may not deserve it. Its anonymity alone is enough to make me discount anything I read there. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, May 3, 2004 11:32 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog > > In a message dated 5/3/04 8:30:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > Hmm, verrry interesting. We'll no doubt hear from Bob Grumman re the > > focus on Iowa Workshop names. But, I'm sure one could find in those > > lists clusters of graduates from other stellar MFA programs. > > It's perhaps true that much of this prize-winning book publication > is now a form of vanity publishing, with a financing scheme that doesn't > require the author's money directly but takes in money in the form of > tuition > to the right school, and with an additional subsidy provided by other > entrant > to > the contest who were unaware that the fix was in. > I say "vanity publishing" because it seems there are now > presses where the publisher isn't willing to "invest in" > an author's book outside of publishing it under a contest format > with entry-fee financing. > Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 3 13:46:23 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 13:46:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A with Anthony Hecht Message-ID: <5a.2aebd240.2dc7df6f@aol.com> http://www.neh.fed.us/news/humanities/2004-03/lifeofapoet.html NEH Chairman Bruce Cole spoke recently with Anthony Hecht about the writing of poetry and the relationship between poetry and art. Hecht has published seven volumes of poetry, among them The Hard Hours, which won a Pulitzer Prize in 1968. He is chancellor emeritus of the Academy of American Poets. -- Cole: I?m a fan of many poets? discussion of visual art, and I?m just thinking of why that is so. First of all, to talk about paintings well, you have to find something that?s not easy to find--that is, the verbal equivalent of something that is essentially not verbal. There?s also the play of imagination, which is an essential part. Hecht: Ruskin is interesting on the subject, because he does claim, at times, that the task of seeing and seeing accurately is almost the most important act that a human being can perform in life. This is a task, certainly, for good poets as well as for painters: to see with precision, with accuracy, without lying, without exaggeration. This is a very difficult task. From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 3 14:14:53 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 14:14:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <5b.4d951e9a.2dc7e61d@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/04 12:57:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > But as has been pointed out on another list, Foetry is disturbingly slapdash > in the way it's run, allowing unsubstantiated rumors to thrive and innuendo > to smear publishers and judges who may not deserve it. Its anonymity alone > is enough to make me discount anything I read there. > David, I can't say how accurate the information is on the whole...but I checked on the one account of a "subverted judging process" (by one Charles Wright) of which I had first-hand knowledge, and it was properly recorded. (But it wasn't me who tattled, honest.) Also, I'm sure in many cases it's not too hard to connect-the-dots, esp. in those teacher-picks-his/her-student cases. If the people behind the site are being fair whistleblowers (Is there evidence that they have not been?) ,I don't blame them for staying undercover. If there is value in the site as whole, I think it will be in calling into question the advent and the explosive growth of contest-fee-financed publishing. Finnegan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon May 3 15:02:13 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 12:02:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <5b.4d951e9a.2dc7e61d@aol.com> Message-ID: <40969736.4DABF5E2@earthlink.net> Well, I've told this one before in other quarters, but . . . Some 8 years ago a poet who was then in the Iowa Workshop, handed me a sealed envelope containing the name of the poet who would win the next Iowa Prize. After the winner was announced, I opened the envelope and there was the winner's name. "How'd you know, " I asked the poet. "Everyone [at Iowa] knew," was the reply. - Jim JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/3/04 12:57:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > > But as has been pointed out on another list, Foetry is disturbingly slapdash > > in the way it's run, allowing unsubstantiated rumors to thrive and innuendo > > to smear publishers and judges who may not deserve it. Its anonymity alone > > is enough to make me discount anything I read there. > > > David, > I can't say how accurate the information is on the whole...but I checked > on the one account of a "subverted judging process" (by one Charles Wright) > of which I had first-hand knowledge, and it was properly recorded. > (But it wasn't me who tattled, honest.) > > Also, I'm sure in many cases it's not too hard to connect-the-dots, > esp. in those teacher-picks-his/her-student cases. > > If the people behind the site are being fair whistleblowers (Is > there evidence that they have not been?) ,I don't blame them > for staying undercover. If there is value in the site as whole, > I think it will be in calling into question the advent and the > explosive growth of contest-fee-financed publishing. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon May 3 15:07:31 2004 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 15:07:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <7a.56503321.2dc7f273@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2004 2:15:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > If there is value in the site as whole, > I think it will be in calling into question the advent and the > explosive growth of contest-fee-financed publishing. > Traditionally, as you know, commercial publishing houses are financed and sustained by book sales. Sales of poetry books (practically an oxymoron) are laughably insufficient to support a poetry press. Government-sponsored grants are all but gone, and private foundations offer precious little help. Unless you are Poetry Magazine (actually, Poetry Foundation), you can't exactly count on individual donors providing much in excess of a few thousand dollars a year. (Poetry's $100 million windfall would support several dozen of our best independent and university publishing houses in perpetuity, but they've not offered.) Along with the growth of contest-fee subsidized publishing has come a commensurate growth in the number of poetry books published. The alternative, in the case of most independent poetry presses and even in the case of most university presses, is little or no new poetry published in this country. Maybe five presses could survive -- and those have lists that are, for all intents and purposes, closed. Them's the facts. Maybe someone can propose a real-world alternative, and I'd be delighted to hear a workable suggestion or two. Jeffrey Levine Tupelo Press -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 3 16:01:33 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 16:01:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <1c8.18a28646.2dc6ff04@aol.com> <40963A2C.7A37D0A0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008501c43149$7168be40$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Hmm, verrry interesting. We'll no doubt hear from Bob Grumman re the > focus on Iowa Workshop names. But, I'm sure one could find in those > lists clusters of graduates from other stellar MFA programs. Jim, for something like the twentieth time: You don't have to be a graduate from Iowa to write Iowa Workshop Poems. You don't have to be in an Iowa Workshop to write an Iowa Workshop Poem. You don't have to be in or come from Iowa to write an Iowa Workshop Poem. Aside from that, I'm now using the term "Centrimodal Free Verse Poem" for Iowa Workshop Poem. Most of the time. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 3 16:56:32 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 16:56:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog In-Reply-To: <008501c43149$7168be40$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: { I'm now using the term "Centrimodal Free Verse Poem" for { Iowa Workshop Poem. Most of the time. { { --Bob G. Catchy! "If you're not nervous, you're not paying attention." --Miles Davis Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon May 3 17:06:43 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 14:06:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <1c8.18a28646.2dc6ff04@aol.com> <40963A2C.7A37D0A0@earthlink.net> <008501c43149$7168be40$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4096B463.92F4F8FD@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Hmm, verrry interesting. We'll no doubt hear from Bob Grumman re the > > focus on Iowa Workshop names. But, I'm sure one could find in those > > lists clusters of graduates from other stellar MFA programs. > > Jim, for something like the twentieth time: > > You don't have to be a graduate from Iowa to write Iowa Workshop Poems. > > You don't have to be in an Iowa Workshop to write an Iowa Workshop Poem. > > You don't have to be in or come from Iowa to write an Iowa Workshop Poem. Old news. But, you gotta admit that nothing beats the "Iowa Workshop Poem" (whatever that is) when it comes from point of origin (whatever that was). - Jim From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon May 3 17:25:15 2004 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 16:25:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2DC@mail.ripon.edu> Foetry still bothers me. Take a look at their page on The U Georgia contest, for example. Their contest is listed under "contests in need of reformation." Their entire case against UGeorge consists of the following: of 102 books published, one was by a person who has written on editor Bin Ramke's work; a dozen or so winners went to Iowa; and another winner was someone who graduated from the school where Ramke teaches. (No information about whether Ramke was actually that poet's teacher, by the way.) According to Foetry, Ramke selects the finalists, and then there is a "distinguished" outside judge who reads the finalists. They do not claim to read submissions anonymously, and even so, out of 102 books, only 2 could be found with Ramke-connections. Does that sound scandalous to you? Is that a contest in need of reformation? Well, I don't know, either. It's possible that one could turn over more rocks and find more creepy-crawlies, yes. Or not. In fact, there may or may not be a scandal here at U Georgia Press, but in any event, Foetry does not make that case. As far as I can tell, it relies on innuendo, circumstantial evidence, and unsupported claims submitted anonymously. The fact that they may be right about some contests doesn't make me feel much better about how they're operating, I'm afraid. Jim Finnegan asks if there's any evidence that Foetry's whistle-blowing is not accurate. I think the burden of proof is on them to show that it is. <<<<<<<<<<<< David, I can't say how accurate the information is on the whole...but I checked on the one account of a "subverted judging process" (by one Charles Wright) of which I had first-hand knowledge, and it was properly recorded. (But it wasn't me who tattled, honest.) Also, I'm sure in many cases it's not too hard to connect-the-dots, esp. in those teacher-picks-his/her-student cases. If the people behind the site are being fair whistleblowers (Is there evidence that they have not been?) ,I don't blame them for staying undercover. If there is value in the site as whole, I think it will be in calling into question the advent and the explosive growth of contest-fee-financed publishing. Finnegan ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 3 17:28:37 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 17:28:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: Message-ID: <012901c43155$9a1cdae0$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > { I'm now using the term "Centrimodal Free Verse Poem" for > { Iowa Workshop Poem. Most of the time. > { > { --Bob G. > > Catchy! Right. Still, if anyone has a better one, I'd gladly take mine back. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 3 17:41:00 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 17:41:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <1df.1f6831f0.2dc8166c@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/04 3:08:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > Traditionally, as you know, commercial publishing houses are financed and > sustained by book sales. Sales of poetry books (practically an oxymoron) are > > laughably insufficient to support a poetry press. Government-sponsored > grants are > all but gone, and private foundations offer precious little help. Unless you > > are Poetry Magazine (actually, Poetry Foundation), you can't exactly count > on > individual donors providing much in excess of a few thousand dollars a year. > > (Poetry's $100 million windfall would support several dozen of our best > independent and university publishing houses in perpetuity, but they've not > offered.) > > Along with the growth of contest-fee subsidized publishing has come a > commensurate growth in the number of poetry books published. The alternative, > in the > case of most independent poetry presses and even in the case of most > university presses, is little or no new poetry published in this country. > Maybe five > presses could survive -- and those have lists that are, for all intents and > purposes, closed. Them's the facts. Maybe someone can propose a real-world > alternative, and I'd be delighted to hear a workable suggestion or two. > Jeff, I nothing but respect for poetry publishers...certainly most haven't gotten into the game for the love of the art (or they were just plain crazy). I guess the questions this contest publishing merry-go-round begs are: 1) Is it better that more small presses are publishing more poetry books because of the advent of this system? 2) Without a contest-fee scheme wouldn't many of these books be financed and published in other manners?...would more be published through author subsidy, subscription, co-op, or as "privately printed" collections, and would they be of any lesser literary quality than the winner of the "Contest of Month" judged by BigName Poet or LittleName Poet? I note that many of non-mainstream publishers haven't gone this route... yet they still publish books? 3) How much of this contest-fee publishing is in fact a spillover effect from the MFA in Poetry boom? Doesn't Richard Howard need to select his students as winners to certify them as poets with appropriate credentials and therefore establish the efficacy and credibility of the program he represents? Finnegan From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon May 3 18:39:05 2004 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 18:39:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <30.55807b95.2dc82409@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2004 5:41:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: I guess the questions this contest publishing merry-go-round begs are: 1) Is it better that more small presses are publishing more poetry books because of the advent of this system? Absolutely. It means that Knopf, thank heavens, isn't the exclusive dictator of what we need to read, nor is Copper Canyon. It means that emerging voices have a place to emerge, and good midlist voices can reemerge. It means choices are available. But I think you have to be smart about it. If you're submitting a manuscript to several contests, look for presses that have distribution, that make good books, that attract a list you'd want to belong to. <<2) Without a contest-fee scheme wouldn't many of these books be financed and published in other manners?...would more be published through author subsidy, subscription, co-op, or as "privately printed" collections, and would they be of any lesser literary quality than the winner of the "Contest of Month" judged by BigName Poet or LittleName Poet? I note that many of non-mainstream publishers haven't gone this route... yet they still publish books? >> Proably not. Probably, those relatively few manuscripts that see the light of day would stay buried. Subscriptions do no work -- they're not reliable, don't generate enough income. (The simple fact is, about the very best a publisher can hope for from sales is break-even.) The co-op route is a nice alternative. Alice James worked this way for many years. I think it's a terrific plan for a group of friends who admire each others' work to get together, form a co-op, and publish their books. For that matter, I just don't understand why more poets don't self-publish. Seems to me there's equal vanity in sending a ms to dozens and dozens of contests just to see if that one judge somewhere will approve work you already think good enough to publish. Was good enough for Whitman. We approve of certain kinds of *vainity* (that our poems are worth reading) while maintaining a steadfast and arbitrary vanity about getting the book published. Doesn't add up. Fact is, precious little of what poetry gets published will ever see the inside of a Barnes & Noble or even an independent bookstore. Most poetry gets sold through readings. You can bring your own book and keep the change. 3) How much of this contest-fee publishing is in fact a spillover effect from the MFA in Poetry boom? You say that like it's a bad thing -- the MFA in Poetry boom. I like the idea of people taking poetry to heart. Are MFA programs a business? Sure? Do they exploit people who think that by going to school they can write good poetry? Well, yes and no. Most can learn to write better poetry. Would you object if, suddenly, thousands of people wanted to go to music conservatories and study the piano or the clarinet? (Which, of course, they do/) What's wrong with people indulging their love for the arts? Do you think there are enough paying jobs in symphony orchestras and the like for all the violinists turned out each year by Juilliard and the other conservatories? Will more than a small handful of painters brushing their way to an MFA at Chicago Art Institute see the inside of a gallery, let alone a museum? Why do we have to guard the gates so vigilantly? Poetry can take care of itself. If a thousand new books of poetry are published each year, we'll only ever see a couple hundred of them, and probably only read a couple dozen, if that. Most won't be reviewed. Most won't be taught. Most won't be read. Most will sell fewer than 150 copies. Most won't be around long enough to be forgotten. But so what? Books like Chicken Soup for the Soul or the combo South Beach diet/cookbook volumes will outsell everything else in the universe. I don't mind having a few more poetry books around to slow the Earth's rotation just a tad. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 3 18:43:22 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 18:43:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <1db.20892bc6.2dc8250a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2004 5:25:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > Jim Finnegan asks if there's any evidence that Foetry's whistle-blowing is > not accurate. I think the burden of proof is on them to show that it is. > > David, I can't say I've spent that much time on the site...I'm not sure I want to either. From the outside, I can confirm only one account that was on the money. Based on your stats re U of GA Press, it does seem that their case against Ramke & Co. overstated or quite flimsy. But let's widen this discussion a bit, let's take for granted the economic realities of poetry publishing are pretty much driving this phenomenon as Jeff fairly asserts, but let's also take for granted that the best audience for poetry is in fact other poets; then, does such a system really serve the authors and their audience all that well? Is is engendering a true, abiding and sustaining audience for poetry and for poetry books or is it leading to resentment, suspicion and ill-will to the state of the art itself? What does it say about us and our system that such a site exists? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 3 18:50:09 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 18:50:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: In a message dated 5/3/2004 6:39:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > 3) How much of this contest-fee publishing is in fact a spillover effect > from > the MFA in Poetry boom? > > You say that like it's a bad thing -- the MFA in Poetry boom. I like the > idea of people taking poetry to heart. Are MFA programs a business? Sure? Do > they exploit people who think that by going to school they can write good > poetry? Well, yes and no. Most can learn to write better poetry. Would you object > if, suddenly, thousands of people wanted to go to music conservatories and > study the piano or the clarinet? (Which, of course, they do/) > > What's wrong with people indulging their love for the arts? Do you think > there are enough paying jobs in symphony orchestras and the like for all the > violinists turned out each year by Juilliard and the other conservatories? Will > more than a small handful of painters brushing their way to an MFA at > Chicago Art Institute see the inside of a gallery, let alone a museum? Why do we > have to guard the gates so vigilantly? Poetry can take care of itself. If a > thousand new books of poetry are published each year, we'll only ever see a > couple hundred of them, and probably only read a couple dozen, if that. Most > won't be reviewed. Most won't be taught. Most won't be read. Most will sell fewer > than 150 copies. Most won't be around long enough to be forgotten. But so > what? Books like Chicken Soup for the Soul or the combo South Beach > diet/cookbook volumes will outsell everything else in the universe. I don't mind having > a few more poetry books around to slow the Earth's rotation just a tad. > Jeff, I'm in agreement...I'm not invoking the spectre of MFA Evil Empire. I've made much the same point as yours many times. My point was: Does this system feed a need for credentials for those who are graduates of these programs? And do judges (often masthead poets at these MFA writing program) need to sanction their progeny? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 3 19:08:12 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 19:08:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <76.3b1f120d.2dc82adc@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2004 5:41:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > ...certainly most > haven't gotten into the game for the love of the art (or they were > just plain crazy). > Oops, fast typing and double negatives don't mix well... that was "have gotten in the game for..." or "haven't gotten into the game for anything but..." da love. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon May 3 19:44:18 2004 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 19:44:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <1a0.23e833d0.2dc83352@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2004 6:51:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: My point was: Does this system feed a need for credentials for those who are graduates of these programs? And do judges (often masthead poets at these MFA writing program) need to sanction their progeny? Finnegan JF, I think this systems feeds a need for credentials for those who want to enter academe, and probably exacerbates the need for credentials for those who started with a need for credentials. But *need* is such a loaded term. It's hard to know these things, of course, but were I a social anthropologist, I'd want to try out the hypothesis that people who have a *need* for an MFA (the degree, as opposed to the learning itself) have a *need* for credentials. Not such a no-brainer as it might sound, since some get an MFA in order to study poetry, to get under the hood and figure out how it works. And it's hard, too, knowing the difference between the need for credentials and the need for confirmation. Doesn't take a genius to notice that the need for confirmation in the little, circumscribed poetry world leads all too often to conformation -- or to discrete pools of conformation. Interesting to note, by the way, that of those who graduated from my own MFA program, I'd say (off the cuff numbers) only 15-20% publish regularly -- whether in journals or books. As for the need of some judges to sanction their progeny, I assume that's a rhetorical question, as clearly some do, and just as clearly, some don't. The poets who teach/taught in my MFA program are notorious -- with a couple of minor exceptions -- for promoting only each others' work, and rarely if ever any of their students. Frankly, I wish they would (but ethically, of course) JL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon May 3 19:47:30 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:47:30 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2DC@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4096DA12.858A8FD4@earthlink.net> Yep, there's a yellow press factor at Foetry, but I doubt they (whoever that is) could ever produce "proof" without someone commiting po-biz suicide (some of us do that regularly here - and I doff my hat to "some of us"). The thing is these so-called "contests" are often not contests at all but , as someone wrote, a way to subsidize a book, whether that book was chosen without prejudice or not. What bothers me most are contests that use screeners before mss get to da judge. Who the hell are these screeners? Most likely grad students located where the press and/or judge are located. Or staff of the press who know who the judge is. I don't know of an alternative to what has become the status quo, except maybe save up thos entry fees and subsidize the printing of a book by a small house that likes ones work. What's the diff? - Jim "Graham, David" wrote: > > Foetry still bothers me. Take a look at their page on The U Georgia > contest, for example. Their contest is listed under "contests in need of > reformation." > > Their entire case against UGeorge consists of the following: of 102 books > published, one was by a person who has written on editor Bin Ramke's work; a > dozen or so winners went to Iowa; and another winner was someone who > graduated from the school where Ramke teaches. (No information about > whether Ramke was actually that poet's teacher, by the way.) > > According to Foetry, Ramke selects the finalists, and then there is a > "distinguished" outside judge who reads the finalists. They do not claim to > read submissions anonymously, and even so, out of 102 books, only 2 could be > found with Ramke-connections. Does that sound scandalous to you? Is that a > contest in need of reformation? > > Well, I don't know, either. It's possible that one could turn over more > rocks and find more creepy-crawlies, yes. Or not. > > In fact, there may or may not be a scandal here at U Georgia Press, but in > any event, Foetry does not make that case. As far as I can tell, it > relies on innuendo, circumstantial evidence, and unsupported claims > submitted anonymously. The fact that they may be right about some contests > doesn't make me feel much better about how they're operating, I'm afraid. > > Jim Finnegan asks if there's any evidence that Foetry's whistle-blowing is > not accurate. I think the burden of proof is on them to show that it is. > > <<<<<<<<<<<< > David, > I can't say how accurate the information is on the whole...but I checked > on the one account of a "subverted judging process" (by one Charles Wright) > of which I had first-hand knowledge, and it was properly recorded. > (But it wasn't me who tattled, honest.) > > Also, I'm sure in many cases it's not too hard to connect-the-dots, > esp. in those teacher-picks-his/her-student cases. > > If the people behind the site are being fair whistleblowers (Is > there evidence that they have not been?) ,I don't blame them > for staying undercover. If there is value in the site as whole, > I think it will be in calling into question the advent and the > explosive growth of contest-fee-financed publishing. > Finnegan > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon May 3 19:49:27 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:49:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <1df.1f6831f0.2dc8166c@aol.com> Message-ID: <4096DA87.F751D66E@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/3/04 3:08:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > > 3) How much of this contest-fee publishing is in fact a spillover effect from > the MFA in Poetry boom? Doesn't Richard Howard need to select his students > as winners to certify them as poets with appropriate credentials and > therefore establish the efficacy and credibility of the program he represents? > Finnegan Ya ya. All that product without product. - Jim From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon May 3 20:26:11 2004 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 20:26:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <51.3e10d763.2dc83d23@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2004 7:53:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: What bothers me most are contests that use screeners before mss get to da judge. Who the hell are these screeners? Most likely grad students located where the press and/or judge are located. At Tupelo Press, I read every single manuscript to weed out the clearly misbegotten. Then my subsequent *readers* are poets whose work I know and respect -- people always with one or two books -- or more, and who might live anywhere in the US. No grad students. No interns. Not ever. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon May 3 20:26:46 2004 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 20:26:46 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <9b.47591877.2dc83d46@aol.com> In a message dated 5/3/2004 7:53:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: subsidize the printing of a book by a small house that likes ones work. What's the diff? an obvious, an eminently good idea. JL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 3 20:37:03 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 20:37:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2DC@mail.ripon.edu> <4096DA12.858A8FD4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01d701c4316f$ed463a30$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> The thing I dislike about poetry publishers who charge a reading fee whether for a legitimate or illegitimate contest (both of which tend to have the same sort of winners) is that rejectees get nothing in return. One suggestion of mine is that the judges indicate on each rejection slip how many entries there were and what position the rejectee's submission attained--for instance, 398th out of 11,967, which might be slight cause for optimism; or 11,966th out of 11,967 which might be enough to help the poet save his money next time around. I know, too much work. (I don't dare ask that each submission be properly critiqued.) --Bob G. From Thom424 at aol.com Mon May 3 20:44:57 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 20:44:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <88.9deb8ec.2dc84189@aol.com> given the unit cost for books, for their entree/reading fee, perhaps entrants to a competition could receive a copy of the winning manuscript/book upon its publication? are there presses that already do this? i think a few presses that sponsor chapbook competitions do this... thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Mon May 3 21:19:01 2004 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 21:19:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <3c.3e668402.2dc84985@aol.com> Copper Canyon does. .. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon May 3 22:45:10 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 21:45:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040503214244.01fc7650@mail.ilstu.edu> This is brilliant. I can remember making a call for precisely this kind of ledger 6 years ago on Buffalo Poetics. I would add though that the sycophancy goes beyond prizes and contests: It would be great if you could broaden the scope beyond an economic rationalism and into the realm of sycophancy at the level of cultural capital. Though less visible to this listserv, I'm thinking especially of post-Black Mountain sycophancies, which swirl principally around three universities: SUNY Buffalo, Penn, and U Maine Orono. Moving, that is, beyond the contest-judgment-aestheticist nexus and into the smallpress-samizdat-normativeideology nexus. At 08:48 PM 5/2/2004, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >http://www.foetry.com >Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog >Exposing the fraudulent "contests." >Tracking the sycophants. >Naming names. __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 3 22:55:32 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 21:55:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The next nexus In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040503214244.01fc7650@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: on 5/3/04 9:45 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: <<< smallpress-samizdat-normativeideology nexus Hey, I'm sure that term will catch on, too, right after "Centrimodal Free Verse Poem." But you've got a way to go before you can match: "Narcissisticquotidiansemi-lyricalreality-basednarrativeswithcrackerjackepip hanies." ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 4 06:17:30 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 06:17:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The next nexus References: Message-ID: <00b101c431c1$03e2f070$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > <<< smallpress-samizdat-normativeideology nexus > > Hey, I'm sure that term will catch on, too, right after "Centrimodal Free > Verse Poem." "Stasguard Criticism" is another good term--for criticism by someone who complains that "Iowa Workshop Poem," which has definitely caught on, is unfairly negative and should be abolished, but offers no replacement term, and mocks anyone else's attempt to find one. --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue May 4 08:47:29 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 05:47:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry: American Poetry Watchdog References: <51.3e10d763.2dc83d23@aol.com> Message-ID: <409790E0.15B712A5@earthlink.net> > > In a message dated 5/3/2004 7:53:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > What bothers me most are contests that use screeners before mss get to > da judge. Who the hell are these screeners? Most likely grad students > located where the press and/or judge are located. > > At Tupelo Press, I read every single manuscript to weed out the clearly misbegotten. Then my subsequent *readers* are poets > whose work I know and respect -- people always with one or two books -- or more, and who might live anywhere in the US. No > grad students. No interns. Not ever. > > Jeffrey Skipping a request for a definitive rendering of "the clearly misbegotten," I want to say thank you for not using grad students. You read *every* manuscript? - Jim "And what good's theory going to be in the real world?" said Harry loudly. Professor Umbridge looked up. "This is school, Mr. Potter, not the real world," she said softly. --J. K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix ???`????,??,????`???????`????,??,????`???????`????,??,?? ?,? From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue May 4 08:56:44 2004 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:56:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The next nexus Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2DF@mail.ripon.edu> > > <<< smallpress-samizdat-normativeideology nexus > > > > Hey, I'm sure that term will catch on, too, right after "Centrimodal > Free > > Verse Poem." > > "Stasguard Criticism" is another good term--for criticism by someone who > complains that "Iowa Workshop Poem," which has definitely caught on, is > unfairly negative and should be abolished, but offers no replacement term, > and mocks anyone else's attempt to find one. > > --Bob G. ---------------- Oh, things just get better and better! Now that you mention it, I do think I've got some Stasguard on my sofa--or should I say davenport--made in Iowa, dontcha know. In the interest of full taxonomic clarity, Bob, my criticism of the term "Iowa Workshop Poem" wasn't that it was unfairly negative. You could look it up. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue May 4 11:20:09 2004 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 10:20:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Don Paterson Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2E2@mail.ripon.edu> Snagged from another list--interesting article/interview on a Scottish poet not too well known in the US. ----------- FT WEEKEND MAGAZINE - BOOKS INTERVIEW: The New Don By John-Paul Flintoff Financial Times; May 01, 2004 In some circles, Don Paterson's forename is used as an honorific, expressive of pre-eminence. In the small world of poetry in English, that would not be inappropriate: Paterson is the Don. His latest book, Landing Light, won the poetry category in the 2003 Whitbread awards and the T.S. Eliot prize soon after. It has won applause from writers not widely known as poetry fiends. A.S. Byatt was kept awake by it, Philip Hensher couldn't get it out of his head, Alain de Botton was "much taken" with it and Andrew Marr coolly asserted that Landing Light contained "the best poetry available, these days". Technically versatile, playful at times, but also occasionally austere, Paterson's earlier books were admired. The new one, published in paperback last month, has thrust him into the front rank of poets writing in English. But how to account for the breakthrough maturity of this fourth coll- ection? Professor Robert Crawford, an acclaimed poet who works with Paterson in the creative writing department at St Andrews University, offers a clue: "There still is a kind of postmodern, clever-clever thing [in Landing Light], but I suspect that the experience of becoming a father has something to do with [the book's] stingingly clear and beautiful lyricism." The book is no less varied than its pre-decessors - by turns erotic, mythic, sentimental, cussed, meditative, laddish, writerly, urgent, droll, elegiac - and fatherhood provides the subject in only a tiny portion of the poems. But whereas the tone of a previous collection, God's Gift To Women, was set by the title poem, addressed to a lover, the keynote of Landing Light sounds something like this: "...his four-day-old smile dawned on him again, / possessed him, till it would not fall or waver; / and I pitched back not my old hard-pressed grin / but his own smile, or one I'd rediscovered. / Dear son, I was mezzo del cammin / and the true path was as lost to me as ever / when you cut in front and lit it as you ran." I recently met Paterson - whose surname, you will note, unites parent with offspring - at his house in Kirriemuir, a pretty conurbation of reddish stone some 15 miles outside Dundee, hitherto best known as the birthplace of J.M. Barrie. His twin toddlers, Russell and Jamie, opened the door and introduced each other to me before their father shuffled out of his office to join us. (They share the house with his partner, Annie, and his three stepdaughters.) He was struggling with an article for The Herald and a head cold. This may explain why he did not seem especially lyrical in person. He was polite, reserved, mildly sardonic in what may possibly be the local fashion - don't ask me, I'm from London. But the longer we chatted about poetry the cheerier he became. Paterson was born in Dundee in 1963. Aged six, he wrote in a schoolbook: "When i grow up i am giong to be a peot, and rite peoms." He was brought up a Calvinist but rebelled in his teens by joining a Pentecostal church. This may, in the long run, have been useful to him as a poet ("Speaking in tongues, all that crap"), but he's glad it didn't last and remains fiercely angry with the people who influenced his vulnerable teens. He failed his Higher exams, left school at 16, briefly and disastrously worked as an editor on a children's comic in Dundee, then moved to London to work as a musician. He was living in a bedsit in Tottenham, managing to eat only thanks to the kindness of friends, when he caught sight of Tony Harrison reciting poetry on TV. "I thought, 'I'm having some of this.'" "I went out to buy Harrison's book, then others. I bought everything," he says, in an office hedged with bookshelves but also full of musical instruments and peripherals. (A jazz guitarist, Paterson has worked solo and with the jazz-folk ensemble, Lammas.) "To start with [as a reader], you have little critical sense, you think that because it has been published it must be good. I bought a couple of anthologies and chose the ones I liked. And then deliberately read some bad poetry to see if I could tell the difference." How did he know it was bad? "I went to the library and got some little magazines, on the basis that those were going to be... variable. I didn't want to make the same mistakes I'd made as a musician. I'd had no formal training as a musician and regretted it." After a while, he started writing his own poems, and sent some to Douglas Dunn, the Scottish poet who had recently won the Whitbread. "He was really critical," Paterson recalls. "Now that I'm in a position to get sent this stuff myself" - Paterson has for several years been poetry editor at Picador - "I'm more and more impressed that he took the time." Eventually Paterson acquired full confidence in his own work. "You know that you are not serving your apprenticeship when you find yourself disagreeing with your teachers," he says. Since then, he's won all the major poetry prizes. But he still esteems music as the "most perfect and exacting" art: "It can be composed at will, the emotion consequently registered by the listener having at no point in the process actually been felt [by the composer]. This is unthinkable in poetry, where Robert Frost's law of 'no tears in the writer, no tears in the reader' still holds absolute sway." The musical elements in Paterson's poems are unobtrusive, but reveal themselves, on close inspection, to be stunningly accomplished. "I do believe that poetry works better as a 'machine for remembering itself'," he says. "If you agree that rhyme and metre have some mnemonic function then what are you going to put in their place? Too often, people don't think about that. You're giving a lot away in deciding not to write in a regular line." One of the great qualities of a poem, he argues, is that unlike a painting or a symphony, anybody with a memory can possess it entirely. "That is why I have this feeling that the work is impersonal, not proprietorial. I believe that after you finish writing a poem it no longer belongs to you." His friend Charles Simic, co-editor of a British poetry anthology published in the US this month, has said that poems are "translations from the silence". Paterson puts it this way: "I want everyone to think that God talked to me and I just scribbled it down." If this sounds rather grand, he's unapologetic. "Poetry has always had a moral weight. But how explicit is that? It's often oblique. We've been told that the place for poetry is at the margins, and after a while that starts to feel like home. I think poetry can be important again. The gene pool still throws up poets, and the community still has use for them." His own poetry has been likened to that of 17th century poets such as Donne and Marvell: all ingenuity and strong feelings. Though suspicious of critics who seek such resemblances, he accepts in principle that poets sometimes might appear to be throwbacks. "There is no 'progress' in poetry. It doesn't get better. Only a lunatic, an American or a postmodern would think that. (Well, not all Americans.) Some people do believe that poetry's like that; they look at it through a kind of technological paradigm, as if it's all about forging ahead. But there are only so many themes in poetry. Some have gone off the agenda. They can be made timely, but the themes are limited." As suggested by his diverse formats and subjects, that limit would appear to be a source of anxiety. He seems to fear repeating himself and boring readers. Hence, perhaps, his contempt for the notion of a writer's individual voice: "Fuck the individual voice! It's a fetish. I don't think as a poet you need to have a voice. You should use as many as you can, fluently." And hence his self- restraining precaution that, "The tiny oeuvre is a courtesy to the reader and a bribe to posterity." His next project, indeed, is not more poetry but a book of aphorisms. Why? He pulls a face, seemingly as puzzled as anybody. "It's just a daft thing to do." After a moment's pause, and not for the first time, Paterson's self-deprecation melts into high seriousness. "Aphorism is not a very popular form in Anglophone culture. But maybe that's cyclical. Maybe now that everyone has the memory of a guppy... Actually, I think this has something to do with the English - as opposed to Scottish or Celtic - having a problem with unilateral assertion. It always has to be consensus. I've never understood that. On the continent, no one has a problem with aphorism. It's seen as un-British. But it's no more presumptuous than any other form." This is the first time he specifically reminds me that he is Scottish. Is that important to him? Not especially, one gathers. "I would have written the same poems, basically, if I hadn't been from Scotland." What about the odd poems, in Landing Light and previous books, that he wrote in Scots? "Scots as it is spoken has a thin, urban vocabulary, so when you are writing you have to pump it full of rural vocabulary... Writing in Scots is a kind of forlorn, romantic, republican gesture. I don't know why I bother." Another forthcoming work is a trans-lation of Rilke's sonnets; not the first project of its kind. The Eyes, the book that immediately preceded Landing Light, contained "versions" of the work of the Spanish poet Antonio Machado which Paterson, typically, describes as "something like piano transcriptions of guitar music". This was the book of his that I, for one, enjoyed least; but Crawford, Paterson's colleague at St Andrews, argues that it had a transformative effect. "I think that Don, from his first book, established himself as a poet of remarkable fluency and sophistication. There is also a kind of dark, even occasionally bitter streak in his writing. The Machado maybe gave him a sense of southern light and lyricism that was there before, but hadn't flowered in the way it has now. Landing Light is maybe the result." We can only hope that further regenerative profit results from the translation of Rilke; just a little more with which to bribe posterity and keep A.S. Byatt from her sleep. Landing Light by Don Paterson Faber & Faber ?12.99, 112 pages ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue May 4 13:46:04 2004 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 10:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] NY Times, gotta love the South! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040504174604.27331.qmail@web11608.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, yes, the wonders of stereotyping--sort of keeps you from having to think, huh? Jeff Newberry --- "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > Ah, the South. > > When taking a sexual history from someone from the > Deep South, I am > sometimes tempted to ask, > > "When was your first sexual experience (not counting > your family)?" > > And man, beware of fundie families fiddling with > your foundations. > > Freud was right about a lot, wrong about more. > > Still, I'm not entirely kidding about the cultural > prevalence (in my > experience as a clinician). > > No offense to the Agrarian School, etc... > > --CE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gmguddi" > To: ; "New-Poetry" > > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 9:51 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The New York Times this > morning > > > | Last summer I went to the Mammoth Cave in Kentucky > with Clio, my daughter, > | then 6. As we rolled through the haystack hills > and sinkhole farms a small > | clapboard amusement park raised itself from behind > a hickory copse. The > | homemade sign, which had weather maybe 20 years or > so, read "GOLGOTHA FUN > | PARK," behind which were three 15 -oot tall > bockety-looking wooden > crosses. > | The park contained miniature golf and a deathtrap > rollercoaster. On the > way > | out I stopped for a closer look (it was only a > half mile from the giant > | plastic dinosaur park down the road): everything > in the Golgotha Fun Park > | adhered strictly to the crucifixion motif. > | > | Gabe > | > | At 08:16 AM 5/1/2004, Halvard Johnson wrote: > | > | >had a story about a creationist theme park in > Florida at which kids > | >are taught that God made dinosaurs on the 6th day > of Creation some > | >6,000 years ago. This story, together with much > else, somehow or other > | >put me in mind of the following: > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > > | > Fernando > Pessoa > | > > | > A Shrug of > the Shoulders > | > > | > We generally > give to our ideas about > the > | > unknown the > color of our notions > about > | > what > | > we do know: > If we call death a sleep > it's > | > because it > has the appearance of > sleep; if > | > we call death > a new life, it's > because it > | > seems > different from life. We build > our > | > beliefs and > hopes out of these small > | > > misunderstandings with reality and > | > live off > | > husks of > bread we call cakes, the way > poor > | > children play > at being happy. > | > But that's > how all life is; at least > | > that's > | > how the > particular way of life > generally > | > known as > civilization is. > Civilization > | > consists in > giving an inappropriate > | > name to > | > something and > then dreaming what > results > | > from that. > And in fact the false name > and > | > the true > dream do create a new > | > reality. The > | > object really > does become other, > | > because we > | > have made it > so. We manufacture > realities. > | > We use the > raw materials we always > | > used but > | > the form lent > it by art effectively > | > prevents it > from remaining the same. > A > | > table made > out of pinewood is a > pinetree > | > but it is > also a table. We sit down > at the > | > table not at > the pinetree. ... > | > > | > An excerpt > from "The Book of > | > Disquiet," written in the 1920's, first > | > published in > 1982 by Atica in Lisbon. > | > > | > > | >Hal Serving the tri-state area. > | > > | >Halvard Johnson > | >=============== > | >email: halvard at earthlink.net > | >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > | >The Sonnet Project: > | > >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > <-- up > | >to date as of 4/26/04 > | > > | >_______________________________________________ > | >New-Poetry mailing list > | >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > | > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > | > | _______________________________________________ > | New-Poetry mailing list > | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > | > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue May 4 14:41:58 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 19:41:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Don Paterson References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2E2@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <00bc01c43207$7b665380$d3309b51@MyPC> From: "Graham, David" Subject: [New-Poetry] Don Paterson > Snagged from another list--interesting article/interview on a Scottish poet > not too well known in the US. > > ----------- > > FT WEEKEND MAGAZINE - BOOKS INTERVIEW: The New Don By John-Paul Flintoff > Financial Times; May 01, 2004 > > In some circles, Don Paterson's forename is used as an honorific, expressive > of pre-eminence. There's a specifically Glasgow (not generically Scottish) joke: "How do you spell your name, boy?" "Pa'erson, sir, with two "t's". Turns on the ['] glottal stop, and predates Don Paterson. My da confirmed Robert Crawford. Sad but true ... :-( MFA The link between an Iowa Workshop Poem and the stuff that was being done by the Movement, Children of Larkin, in England in the fifties Group vs Workshop Self-publishing False Friends Across the Pond ... basically, it's easier (and cheaper) to start you own press than you'd think: who needs Chicago or Oxford? -- the real problem is distribution. Robin Hamilton From antrobin at clipper.net Tue May 4 15:19:50 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 12:19:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] gotta love the South!-- No sense of humor? One of my hot buttons... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010601c4320c$d30e69b0$01acefd8@Emily> I'm no fan of the south, BUT I object on the grounds that C.E. Chaffin simply isn't very funny. Props to Jeff for standing up for his folks. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of C. E. Chaffin Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 1:13 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] gotta love the South!-- No sense of humor? One of my hot buttons... Ah, yes, the wonders of stereotyping--sort of keeps you from having to think, huh? --Jeff Newberry *************** Lessee: Profiling and stereotyping are bad. So policemen can't do it in public but detectives have to in secret. As a doctor, if you're fat, I think of diabetes, if you're black, I worry about hypertension, if you're too skinny I think about anorexia, if you're a smoker... etc. If you're a health professional I think of drug problems. So a little joke, tied to a little real experience, about the Rural Deep South needs a PC slap? Where has our sense of humor gone? Should I respond in kind to the driving jokes about LA, where I'm from? Or Governor Gropenfuhrer? A society that cannot laugh at its stereotypes, from Dick Clark to Kenneth Lay to Reverend Jackson, should just curl up and put their Pilgrims' hats back on. If all we can speak of is the discrete individual, if generalizations are of no value, empirical science must also end. Crabs can't be spiders then. Zebras can't be from the horse family. And humans are so different any attempt at double blind trials would be immoral. And life-saving recommendations based on the results, though not right for every patient, should be invalidated as prejudicial. God, every cancer is special! (Ah, the wedge principle, primitive but effective in rhetoric). Don't come to my office, I'm trained to look for stereotypes, clusters of signs and symptoms. It's my extra knowledge that helps me distinguish beyond them, but one must start somewhere. Like fat white men who love rifles and move to Idaho. Hmmm.... My, my. Makes me want to post a poem-- and I will-- I guess this overdoing of tolerance is one of my hot buttons, to confess one of my own not inconsiderable defects. Not Enough Hamlets Jesus stands on a green hill rank with clover and autographs the thousand bleached skulls gleaming yellow on desperate verdure: One for each righteous man in the last millennium. Once pitied as a crucifix of red mahogany inside a gothic alcove before a candle's tiny holocaust, he comes to reassert himself late in the twentieth century and test the waters for a second coming. He soon learns no one cares if he takes a lover or has a slush fund or twists the truth to suit his hearer's ears but he better not eat veal or wear fur or own a car or claim to really understand the plight of minorities lest we doubt his sensitivity. Feminists discount him, gays are shocked he isn't, blacks resent his power, Jews call him a traitor. Seniors jockey for healings, teenagers take as gospel he cannot fathom their super-caffeinated suffering and mothers won't let children near unless he shows a day care license. Small wonder he decides the world isn't ready. No one is passionate enough about good and evil anymore. Everything's too watered-down. Satanists run summer camps and pedophiles have websites, televangelists promote cosmetics and scientists study animal behavior for clues to morality. Jesus stands on a green hill rank with clover, having autographed the thousand bleached skulls gleaming yellow on desperate verdure. Park sanitation workers gather them in red biohazard bags for incineration. There were never enough Hamlets to hold them, anyway. (published in _Poetry Now_ and _Apples and Oranges_) --CE _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue May 4 15:56:42 2004 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:56:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paterson poem Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2EC@mail.ripon.edu> Poetry In the same way that the mindless diamond keeps one spark of the planet's early fires trapped forever in its net of ice, it's not love's later heat that poetry holds, but the atom of the love that drew it forth from the silence: so if the bright coal of his love begins to smoulder, the poet hears his voice suddenly forced, like a bar-room singer's -- boastful with his own huge feeling, or drowned by violins; but if it yields a steadier light, he knows the pure verse, when it finally comes, will sound like a mountain spring, anonymous and serene. Beneath the blue oblivious sky, the water sings of nothing, not your name, not mine. Don Paterson. *The White Lie: New & Selected Poetry*. Graywolf, 2001. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From antrobin at clipper.net Tue May 4 17:38:51 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:38:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] gotta love the South!-- No sense of humor? One of my hot buttons... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011a01c43220$382de290$01acefd8@Emily> C.E., Yeah, I know. Wasn't razor sharp at all. But that's how it goes. I wasn't being razor sharp, though, as I wasn't trying to bait you. I was simply expressing my opinion about your wit. I've no desire to go Grumman-Bales anytime soon. Tony From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 4 21:21:55 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:21:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH Message-ID: <1f1.1f9a3a34.2dc99bb3@aol.com> Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH will be published this August. This poem is from her SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS.*************************************** A Hardware Store As Proof of the Existence of God I praise the brightness of hammers pointing east like the steel woodpeckers of the future, and dozens of hinges opening brass wings, and six new rakes shyly fanning their toes, and bins of hooks glittering into bees, and a rack of wrenches like the long bones of horses, and mailboxes sowing rows of silver chapels, and a company of plungers waiting for God to claim their thin legs in their big shoes and put them on and walk away laughing. In a world not perfect but not bad either let there be glue, glaze, gum, and grabs, caulk also, and hooks, shackles, cables, and slips, and signs so spare a child may read them, Men, Women, In, Out, No Parking, Beware the Dog. In the right hands, they can work wonders. ***************************************From SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Nancy Willard. Copyright 1996 by Nancy Willard. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** Related links: Pre-order IN THE SALT MARSH: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jdyN0DXKYc0Wa0T4B0Ap About Nancy Willard: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jdyN0DXKYc0Wa0T4C0Aq Discuss "A Hardware Store as Proof of the Existence of God" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://www.aaknopf.com/poetry/forum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue May 4 21:25:56 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:25:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH Message-ID: <88.9f7e0e9.2dc99ca4@cs.com> In a message dated 5/4/2004 8:23:17 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > > Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH will be published this > August. This poem is from her SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED > POEMS.*************************************** > > A Hardware Store As Proof of the Existence of God > > I praise the brightness of hammers pointing east > like the steel woodpeckers of the future, > and dozens of hinges opening brass wings, > and six new rakes shyly fanning their toes, > and bins of hooks glittering into bees, > > and a rack of wrenches like the long bones of horses, > and mailboxes sowing rows of silver chapels, > and a company of plungers waiting for God > to claim their thin legs in their big shoes > and put them on and walk away laughing. > > In a world not perfect but not bad either > let there be glue, glaze, gum, and grabs, > caulk also, and hooks, shackles, cables, and slips, > and signs so spare a child may read them, > Men, Women, In, Out, No Parking, Beware the Dog. > > In the right hands, they can work wonders. > > > > ***************************************From SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND > SELECTED POEMS by Nancy Willard. Copyright 1996 by Nancy Willard. Excerpted by > permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights > reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission > in writing from the publisher. > > *************************************** This is the Willard poem I've used in several editions of Poetry: A Pocket Anthology. I love it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 4 21:32:06 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:32:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] CIRCUMFERENCE, a journal of poetry in translation Message-ID: CIRCUMFERENCE, a journal of poetry in translation, is currently accepting submissions for its Summer/Autumn issue. CIRCUMFERENCE is devoted to presenting translations of new work being written around the globe, new visions of classical poems, and translations of foreign language poets of the past who have fallen under the radar of American readers. A biannual publication, CIRCUMFERENCE prints each poem in the original language side-by- side with its English translation. The first issue of CIRCUMFERENCE was published last November and features translations from a wide range of languages including French, Slovenian, Vietnamese, Korean, Irish, Sanskrit, Tagalog, Portuguese, and Latin, by such translators as Paul Muldoon, Marilyn Hacker, Charles Simic, Mary Ann Caws, and Pierre Joris. When submitting work, please mail five or six translations along with the original poems to CIRCUMFERENCE P.O. Box 27 New York, NY 10159-0027 Our current deadline is May 20th. To learn more about CIRCUMFERENCE, read selections from the first issue, or subscribe, please visit www.circumferencemag.com. Best wishes, Stefania Heim & Jennifer Kronovet editors at circumferencemag.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 4 21:36:04 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:36:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis Message-ID: <82.b0cca7c.2dc99f04@aol.com> He Likes Meter and Rhyme, Calls Free Verse a Crime And Dog Poems Sublime By MATTHEW ROSE Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL May 3, 2004; Page A1 When he began reading his poetry in public, Felix Dennis, the publishing mogul behind Maxim magazine, usually arrived by helicopter. He dubbed a late 2002 12-city trip around England the "Did I Mention the Free Wine?" tour, on the advice, he says, of Mick Jagger, his neighbor on the island of Mustique. During the reading, young women in tour T-shirts handed out free glasses of wine from his own cellar. As he read, his words were flashed on a screen and electronic music, especially written for him, provided a background. "Never go back," Mr. Dennis growled into a microphone, starting the poem that kicks off and ends his readings: Never go back. Never return to the haunts of your youth. Keep to the track, to the beaten track, Memory holds all you need of the truth. In a picaresque career, Mr. Dennis has played drums for Eric Clapton, gone to jail for publishing Oz, a crudely satirical magazine, and written a biography of Bruce Lee. In his newest chapter, the British multimillionaire is on a crusade to challenge the obscurity of modern poetry, by reclaiming old-fashioned values of rhyme and meter. His flair for marketing, and his bankroll, are giving him unusual success. His first volume of poetry, "A Glass Half Full" got barely any attention from serious reviewers but sold all 10,000 copies printed in Britain. For the American edition, due in September, Mr. Dennis, 56 years old, is upgrading his traveling show. He has hired a jet for about $300,000 to shuttle him to towns around the country where he plans to hand out a DVD of previous performances. Hoping to make a profit from Mr. Dennis's new passion, publisher Miramax Books, a unit of Walt Disney Co., has plans to print 25,000 copies. Most serious poets are lucky to sell 3,000. "It would be nice if Mr. Letterman or Oprah gave me two minutes," Mr. Dennis says. "I'd blow their bloody socks off." Mr. Dennis has let his hair grow long and shaggy since he started writing seriously in late 2000. He has completed 650 poems, at last count, in the four hours a day he devotes to them. Every few weeks, he sends what he calls a "wodge" of poems to his editor and to a lawyer friend, who stands in for the kind of ordinary reader Mr. Dennis seeks. Mr. Dennis then joins the other two in grading his poems. Those that get three As make the cut. Cs are discarded. Anything in between goes up for discussion or revision. Mr. Dennis says in the next few years he's considering selling Dennis Publishing, owner of the highly successful Maxim, an irreverent men's magazine. He would like to concentrate on poetry and other interests, he says, such as accumulating enough land to plant a 50,000-acre forest in England, named the Forest of Dennis. He also has an idea to build retirement villages for baby boomers. His poetry is intended for "people who appear to devour it as if they've been starved for 40 or 50 years, which, by the way, they have," he says. Easing into a leather armchair in his Manhattan apartment, Mr. Dennis accidentally sat on a slim volume of poetry by Ezra Pound, a poet known for being impenetrable in his later years. "That's what he deserves," Mr. Dennis snorted. "He used to write good poems." Some of Mr. Dennis's poems are introspective slices of life, including ones about love and his well-publicized former crack-cocaine habit. Others are about business, such as a tribute to computer servers and a paean to his work ethic called "The Bearded Dwarf." Some of his poems are political, such as "The Taking of Saddam." Mr. Dennis has been struggling recently with a poem about the Concorde. "It harks back to one of my favorite poets, Kipling," says novelist Tom Wolfe, who attended a reading in New York. David Carey, publisher of the New Yorker, heard him at a conference in Monterey, Calif. "The audience was simply blown away," he says. "Most people expected poems where the words all rhyme with 'truck.' " Many established poets don't seem to think their craft is in need of saving. At a London event, Mr. Dennis read a poem titled, "I Wish I liked Your Modern Verse...": I wish I liked your modern verse, I wish it were not so...perverse; I wish the lines were not so dense, Or even made a bit of sense. A poet named Michael Horovitz jumped up and protested that it was "so wrong and so unfair," Mr. Dennis recalls. Mr. Horovitz says he didn't use those exact words, but he has little admiration for Mr. Dennis's style: "He has this maddeningly reactionary and Philistine concern about rhyming, which is why Felix, until he gets over it, won't become a true poet." He adds that people only bought the book out of "sheer gracefulness" in return for free wine. Mr. Dennis wrote his first poem in 1999 and was "a bit embarrassed" by the idea. He didn't share any of his work until October 2001, when he read a poem at a dinner party. "I brought the house down," he says. "I felt like a young girl who won her first pony gymkhana." (A gymkhana is a sports meet often involving horses.) Mr. Dennis duels with his editor, Simon Rae, both agree, especially about dog poems, which Mr. Rae thinks pander to the more mawkish sentiments of readers. "This is an underpandered audience," splutters Mr. Dennis in response. "Maybe it's time someone did a little pandering," he says before launching into a favorite: An old dog is the best dog, A dog with rheumy eyes; An old dog is the best dog A dog grown sad and wise,... He takes a breath: "They love these. Audiences like this stuff." Mr. Dennis says he picked the title Maxim in part because it reminded him of a Hilaire Belloc poem about British colonialists in Africa: "Whatever happens, we have got/The Maxim Gun, and they have not." He is particularly proud of a cover line he wrote about the TV show "Xena, Warrior Princess" for the April 1999 issue of Maxim: "Xena Like You've Never Seen 'Er!" American poets aren't rolling out the red carpet. "The associations between poetry and poverty are very strong and if you arrive in a helicopter, people would doubt your poetic credentials," says Billy Collins, the former U.S. poet laureate. For the U.S. tour, Miramax plans to excise poems that are too British. It had to nix venues that wouldn't allow alcohol to be served. The publisher's president, Jonathan Burnham, says Mr. Dennis will also have to put aside his cigarettes during performances. "Welcome to America, Felix," says Mr. Burnham. "Jonathan is not paying for this tour," says Mr. Dennis, who smokes two packs a day. "I am." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed May 5 01:59:27 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 01:59:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH References: <88.9f7e0e9.2dc99ca4@cs.com> Message-ID: <003201c43266$213fd160$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I think she's a wonderful poet, one of our best. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH In a message dated 5/4/2004 8:23:17 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH will be published this August. This poem is from her SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS.*************************************** A Hardware Store As Proof of the Existence of God I praise the brightness of hammers pointing east like the steel woodpeckers of the future, and dozens of hinges opening brass wings, and six new rakes shyly fanning their toes, and bins of hooks glittering into bees, and a rack of wrenches like the long bones of horses, and mailboxes sowing rows of silver chapels, and a company of plungers waiting for God to claim their thin legs in their big shoes and put them on and walk away laughing. In a world not perfect but not bad either let there be glue, glaze, gum, and grabs, caulk also, and hooks, shackles, cables, and slips, and signs so spare a child may read them, Men, Women, In, Out, No Parking, Beware the Dog. In the right hands, they can work wonders. ***************************************From SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Nancy Willard. Copyright 1996 by Nancy Willard. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** This is the Willard poem I've used in several editions of Poetry: A Pocket Anthology. I love it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed May 5 05:36:58 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:36:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] some statistics Message-ID: <003101c43284$835d2cd0$991c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> I think people should be aware of this, that is why I am pasting here below, and it fundamentally reflects my idea of what the U.S.A. should have done after September 11. Just shut down the doors. That simple. >Below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States which >are recorded in both the US State Department and United Nations records: > >Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time. > >Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time. > >Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time. > >United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time. > >Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time. > >Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time. > >Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time. > >Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time. > >Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time. > >Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time. > >Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time. > >Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time. > >India votes against the United States 81% of the time. > >Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time. > >Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time. > >US Foreign Aid to those that hate us: >Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United States, >still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid. > >Jordan votes 71% against the United States and receives $192,814,000 >annually in US Foreign Aid. > >Pakistan votes 75% against the United States and receives $6,721,000 >annually in US Foreign Aid. > >India votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000 annually > >Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give the tax savings back to the >American workers who are having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes. > >Now they want to cut oil production, We should cut aid to them by 50% to >start. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed May 5 06:24:16 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:24:16 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH References: <88.9f7e0e9.2dc99ca4@cs.com> <003201c43266$213fd160$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <006801c4328b$1e840cf0$991c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> This should also be by Willard: http://wso.williams.edu/~cbirtche/mpm/willard.html have fun, Anny From: The Old Mole Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 7:59 AM I think she's a wonderful poet, one of our best. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH In a message dated 5/4/2004 8:23:17 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH will be published this August. This poem is from her SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS.*************************************** A Hardware Store As Proof of the Existence of God I praise the brightness of hammers pointing east like the steel woodpeckers of the future, and dozens of hinges opening brass wings, and six new rakes shyly fanning their toes, and bins of hooks glittering into bees, and a rack of wrenches like the long bones of horses, and mailboxes sowing rows of silver chapels, and a company of plungers waiting for God to claim their thin legs in their big shoes and put them on and walk away laughing. In a world not perfect but not bad either let there be glue, glaze, gum, and grabs, caulk also, and hooks, shackles, cables, and slips, and signs so spare a child may read them, Men, Women, In, Out, No Parking, Beware the Dog. In the right hands, they can work wonders. ***************************************From SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Nancy Willard. Copyright 1996 by Nancy Willard. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** This is the Willard poem I've used in several editions of Poetry: A Pocket Anthology. I love it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 5 06:40:33 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 06:40:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH References: <88.9f7e0e9.2dc99ca4@cs.com> Message-ID: <00a401c4328d$66722270$20efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Nancy Willard seems a worthy rival to Felix Dennis, indeed. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH In a message dated 5/4/2004 8:23:17 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH will be published this August. This poem is from her SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS.*************************************** A Hardware Store As Proof of the Existence of God I praise the brightness of hammers pointing east like the steel woodpeckers of the future, and dozens of hinges opening brass wings, and six new rakes shyly fanning their toes, and bins of hooks glittering into bees, and a rack of wrenches like the long bones of horses, and mailboxes sowing rows of silver chapels, and a company of plungers waiting for God to claim their thin legs in their big shoes and put them on and walk away laughing. In a world not perfect but not bad either let there be glue, glaze, gum, and grabs, caulk also, and hooks, shackles, cables, and slips, and signs so spare a child may read them, Men, Women, In, Out, No Parking, Beware the Dog. In the right hands, they can work wonders. ***************************************From SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Nancy Willard. Copyright 1996 by Nancy Willard. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** This is the Willard poem I've used in several editions of Poetry: A Pocket Anthology. I love it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 5 08:35:38 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:35:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] some statistics In-Reply-To: <003101c43284$835d2cd0$991c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: Shoot, then the US would have to educate its own people and an educated electorate is just what TPTB (the powers that be) have tried to eradicate here for forty or fifty years now. The Right's been wanting to get the US out of the UN (and vice versa) for decades now. Of course, recently they've found they have a use for it (e.g., Powell demonstrating WMDs at Security Council; Iraq reconstruction nowadays). What doors do you have in mind? Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard I think people should be aware of this, that is why I am pasting here below, and it fundamentally reflects my idea of what the U.S.A. should have done after September 11. Just shut down the doors. That simple. >Below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States which >are recorded in both the US State Department and United Nations records: > >Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time. > >Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time. > >Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time. > >United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time. > >Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time. > >Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time. > >Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time. > >Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time. > >Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time. > >Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time. > >Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time. > >Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time. > >India votes against the United States 81% of the time. > >Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time. > >Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time. > >US Foreign Aid to those that hate us: >Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United States, >still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid. > >Jordan votes 71% against the United States and receives $192,814,000 >annually in US Foreign Aid. > >Pakistan votes 75% against the United States and receives $6,721,000 >annually in US Foreign Aid. > >India votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000 annually > >Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give the tax savings back to the >American workers who are having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes. > >Now they want to cut oil production, We should cut aid to them by 50% to >start. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed May 5 08:36:25 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 05:36:25 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH References: <88.9f7e0e9.2dc99ca4@cs.com> <003201c43266$213fd160$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <006801c4328b$1e840cf0$991c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <4098DFC9.E32036B8@earthlink.net> > This should also be by Willard: > > http://wso.williams.edu/~cbirtche/mpm/willard.html > > have fun, Anny Thanks. I was instantly lost. I do appreciate the arbitrariness of connections/links. - Jim "And what good's theory going to be in the real world?" said Harry loudly. Professor Umbridge looked up. "This is school, Mr. Potter, not the real world," she said softly. --J. K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix ???`????,??,????`???????`????,??,????`???????`????,??,?? ??`? From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed May 5 08:40:42 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:40:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH In-Reply-To: <1f1.1f9a3a34.2dc99bb3@aol.com> Message-ID: on 5/4/04 8:21 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH will be published this > August. This poem is from her SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED > POEMS.*************************************** > > A Hardware Store As Proof of the Existence of God > > I praise the brightness of hammers pointing east > like the steel woodpeckers of the future, > and dozens of hinges opening brass wings, > and six new rakes shyly fanning their toes, > and bins of hooks glittering into bees, > > and a rack of wrenches like the long bones of horses, > and mailboxes sowing rows of silver chapels, > and a company of plungers waiting for God > to claim their thin legs in their big shoes > and put them on and walk away laughing. > > In a world not perfect but not bad either > let there be glue, glaze, gum, and grabs, > caulk also, and hooks, shackles, cables, and slips, > and signs so spare a child may read them, > Men, Women, In, Out, No Parking, Beware the Dog. > > In the right hands, they can work wonders. > > > > ***************************************From SWIMMING LESSONS: NEW AND SELECTED > POEMS by Nancy Willard. Copyright 1996 by Nancy Willard. Excerpted by > permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights > reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without > permission in writing from the publisher. > > *************************************** > > Related links: > > Pre-order IN THE SALT MARSH: > http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jdyN0DXKYc0Wa0T4B0Ap > > About Nancy Willard: > http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jdyN0DXKYc0Wa0T4C0Aq > > Discuss "A Hardware Store as Proof of the Existence of God" in the Knopf > Poetry Forum: > http://www.aaknopf.com/poetry/forum > > > > I?ve always admired this poem?and others like it that get hold of the world and all its mundane but oddly strange and beautiful objects. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed May 5 08:45:51 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:45:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Infamous meets the Notorious Message-ID: On the new Perihelion, an online poetry journal, Joan Houlihan interviews me about ideas and movements in contemporary poetry. Aside from a few sentences in my first response, there's almost nothing about me personally. But for those who found Houlihan's last essay controversial and my own sometimes provocative, you can read the whole thing at the following link. Paul Lake http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul at tbhinc.com Wed May 5 09:15:19 2004 From: paul at tbhinc.com (Paul C. Howell) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:15:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics In-Reply-To: <200405051228.i45CS2XE021519@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040505091420.02ff8968@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 08:28 AM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: >it fundamentally reflects my idea of what the U.S.A. should = >have done after September 11. Just shut down the doors. That simple. If yours were a good idea - I, for one, don't think so - how would you go about shutting down the doors? Paul C. Howell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed May 5 09:50:50 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:50:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis In-Reply-To: <82.b0cca7c.2dc99f04@aol.com> Message-ID: Someone please tell me that this was reprinted from The Onion. Paul Lake on 5/4/04 8:36 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > He Likes Meter and Rhyme, > Calls Free Verse a Crime > And Dog Poems Sublime > By MATTHEW ROSE > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL > May 3, 2004; Page A1 > > > When he began reading his poetry in public, Felix Dennis, the publishing > mogul behind Maxim magazine, usually arrived by helicopter. He dubbed a > late 2002 12-city trip around England the "Did I Mention the Free Wine?" > tour, on the advice, he says, of Mick Jagger, his neighbor on the island > of Mustique. During the reading, young women in tour T-shirts handed out > free glasses of wine from his own cellar. > > As he read, his words were flashed on a screen and electronic music, > especially written for him, provided a background. > > "Never go back," Mr. Dennis growled into a microphone, starting the poem > that kicks off and ends his readings: > > Never go back. > Never return to the haunts of your youth. > Keep to the track, to the beaten track, > Memory holds all you need of the truth. > > In a picaresque career, Mr. Dennis has played drums for Eric Clapton, > gone to jail for publishing Oz, a crudely satirical magazine, and > written a biography of Bruce Lee. In his newest chapter, the British > multimillionaire is on a crusade to challenge the obscurity of modern > poetry, by reclaiming old-fashioned values of rhyme and meter. > > His flair for marketing, and his bankroll, are giving him unusual > success. His first volume of poetry, "A Glass Half Full" got barely any > attention from serious reviewers but sold all 10,000 copies printed in > Britain. > > For the American edition, due in September, Mr. Dennis, 56 years old, is > upgrading his traveling show. He has hired a jet for about $300,000 to > shuttle him to towns around the country where he plans to hand out a DVD > of previous performances. Hoping to make a profit from Mr. Dennis's new > passion, publisher Miramax Books, a unit of Walt Disney Co., has plans > to print 25,000 copies. Most serious poets are lucky to sell 3,000. > > "It would be nice if Mr. Letterman or Oprah gave me two minutes," Mr. > Dennis says. "I'd blow their bloody socks off." > > Mr. Dennis has let his hair grow long and shaggy since he started > writing seriously in late 2000. He has completed 650 poems, at last > count, in the four hours a day he devotes to them. Every few weeks, he > sends what he calls a "wodge" of poems to his editor and to a lawyer > friend, who stands in for the kind of ordinary reader Mr. Dennis seeks. > Mr. Dennis then joins the other two in grading his poems. Those that get > three As make the cut. Cs are discarded. Anything in between goes up for > discussion or revision. > > Mr. Dennis says in the next few years he's considering selling Dennis > Publishing, owner of the highly successful Maxim, an irreverent men's > magazine. He would like to concentrate on poetry and other interests, he > says, such as accumulating enough land to plant a 50,000-acre forest in > England, named the Forest of Dennis. He also has an idea to build > retirement villages for baby boomers. > > His poetry is intended for "people who appear to devour it as if they've > been starved for 40 or 50 years, which, by the way, they have," he says. > Easing into a leather armchair in his Manhattan apartment, Mr. Dennis > accidentally sat on a slim volume of poetry by Ezra Pound, a poet known > for being impenetrable in his later years. "That's what he deserves," > Mr. Dennis snorted. "He used to write good poems." > > Some of Mr. Dennis's poems are introspective slices of life, including > ones about love and his well-publicized former crack-cocaine habit. > Others are about business, such as a tribute to computer servers and a > paean to his work ethic called "The Bearded Dwarf." Some of his poems > are political, such as "The Taking of Saddam." Mr. Dennis has been > struggling recently with a poem about the Concorde. > > "It harks back to one of my favorite poets, Kipling," says novelist Tom > Wolfe, who attended a reading in New York. David Carey, publisher of the > New Yorker, heard him at a conference in Monterey, Calif. "The audience > was simply blown away," he says. "Most people expected poems where the > words all rhyme with 'truck.' " > > Many established poets don't seem to think their craft is in need of > saving. At a London event, Mr. Dennis read a poem titled, "I Wish I > liked Your Modern Verse...": > > I wish I liked your modern verse, > I wish it were not so...perverse; > I wish the lines were not so dense, > Or even made a bit of sense. > > A poet named Michael Horovitz jumped up and protested that it was "so > wrong and so unfair," Mr. Dennis recalls. Mr. Horovitz says he didn't > use those exact words, but he has little admiration for Mr. Dennis's > style: "He has this maddeningly reactionary and Philistine concern about > rhyming, which is why Felix, until he gets over it, won't become a true > poet." He adds that people only bought the book out of "sheer > gracefulness" in return for free wine. > > Mr. Dennis wrote his first poem in 1999 and was "a bit embarrassed" by > the idea. He didn't share any of his work until October 2001, when he > read a poem at a dinner party. "I brought the house down," he says. "I > felt like a young girl who won her first pony gymkhana." (A gymkhana is > a sports meet often involving horses.) > > Mr. Dennis duels with his editor, Simon Rae, both agree, especially > about dog poems, which Mr. Rae thinks pander to the more mawkish > sentiments of readers. > > "This is an underpandered audience," splutters Mr. Dennis in response. > "Maybe it's time someone did a little pandering," he says before > launching into a favorite: > > An old dog is the best dog, > A dog with rheumy eyes; > An old dog is the best dog > A dog grown sad and wise,... > > He takes a breath: "They love these. Audiences like this stuff." > > Mr. Dennis says he picked the title Maxim in part because it reminded > him of a Hilaire Belloc poem about British colonialists in Africa: > "Whatever happens, we have got/The Maxim Gun, and they have not." He is > particularly proud of a cover line he wrote about the TV show "Xena, > Warrior Princess" for the April 1999 issue of Maxim: "Xena Like You've > Never Seen 'Er!" > > American poets aren't rolling out the red carpet. "The associations > between poetry and poverty are very strong and if you arrive in a > helicopter, people would doubt your poetic credentials," says Billy > Collins, the former U.S. poet laureate. > > For the U.S. tour, Miramax plans to excise poems that are too British. > It had to nix venues that wouldn't allow alcohol to be served. The > publisher's president, Jonathan Burnham, says Mr. Dennis will also have > to put aside his cigarettes during performances. "Welcome to America, > Felix," says Mr. Burnham. > > "Jonathan is not paying for this tour," says Mr. Dennis, who smokes two > packs a day. "I am." > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed May 5 10:58:09 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:58:09 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040505091420.02ff8968@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <004701c432b1$61d73330$fa1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Difficult to explain, you should have lived abroad for over half your life to understand what I mean where everything which is American is considered trash. Even culture, which is anyhow brought forth by the main intellectuals, see Pavese, for example. From: Paul C. Howell Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:15 PM At 08:28 AM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: it fundamentally reflects my idea of what the U.S.A. should = have done after September 11. Just shut down the doors. That simple. If yours were a good idea - I, for one, don't think so - how would you go about shutting down the doors? Paul C. Howell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed May 5 11:04:12 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 17:04:12 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] some statistics References: Message-ID: <005101c432b2$39f43650$fa1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Just separate the US from the rest of the world. Let them all rot in their ignorance. Sorry, an extreme thought I know, and dictated out of a general and persistent attitude of mistrust against Americans. But again, the world wouldn't be such a great family if we didn't fight every day, would it? From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:35 PM Shoot, then the US would have to educate its own people and an educated electorate is just what TPTB (the powers that be) have tried to eradicate here for forty or fifty years now. The Right's been wanting to get the US out of the UN (and vice versa) for decades now. Of course, recently they've found they have a use for it (e.g., Powell demonstrating WMDs at Security Council; Iraq reconstruction nowadays). What doors do you have in mind? Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard I think people should be aware of this, that is why I am pasting here below, and it fundamentally reflects my idea of what the U.S.A. should have done after September 11. Just shut down the doors. That simple. >Below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States which >are recorded in both the US State Department and United Nations records: > >Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time. > >Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time. > >Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time. > >United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time. > >Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time. > >Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time. > >Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time. > >Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time. > >Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time. > >Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time. > >Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time. > >Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time. > >Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time. > >India votes against the United States 81% of the time. > >Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time. > >Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time. > >US Foreign Aid to those that hate us: >Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United States, >still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid. > >Jordan votes 71% against the United States and receives $192,814,000 >annually in US Foreign Aid. > >Pakistan votes 75% against the United States and receives $6,721,000 >annually in US Foreign Aid. > >India votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000 annually > >Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give the tax savings back to the >American workers who are having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes. > >Now they want to cut oil production, We should cut aid to them by 50% to >start. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul at tbhinc.com Wed May 5 11:37:59 2004 From: paul at tbhinc.com (Paul C. Howell) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:37:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics In-Reply-To: <200405051448.i45Em2XE023514@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040505113235.030189f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 10:48 AM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: >From: "Anny Ballardini" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:58:09 +0200 > >Difficult to explain, you should have lived abroad for over half your = >life to understand what I mean where everything which is American is = >considered trash. Even culture, which is anyhow brought forth by the = >main intellectuals, see Pavese, for example. > From: Paul C. Howell=20 > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:15 PM > At 08:28 AM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > it fundamentally reflects my idea of what the U.S.A. should =3D > have done after September 11. Just shut down the doors. That simple. > > If yours were a good idea - I, for one, don't think so - how would you = >go about shutting down the doors? > > Paul C. Howell For the record, I lived outside the USA most of my life - in Europe, Asia & Australia. I still live outside the USA. Does that make it easier to explain how to shut down the doors? Not so far as I can see, but maybe you can explain.... Paul C. Howell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 11:20:06 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:20:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis References: <82.b0cca7c.2dc99f04@aol.com> Message-ID: <40990625.94A37B01@ix.netcom.com> It starts with Dr. Seuss. Then its on to the harder stuff like Dana Gioia. Finally, you're mainlining Kipling in some tawdry Starbucks in Grand Rapids. And finally this, the self-indulgent toilet of Mr. Dennis. We tried to Parody this on Assassinated Press and failed. Ultimately it was too trivial. CP JforJames at aol.com wrote: > He Likes Meter and Rhyme, > Calls Free Verse a Crime > And Dog Poems Sublime > By MATTHEW ROSE > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL > May 3, 2004; Page A1 > > > When he began reading his poetry in public, Felix Dennis, > the publishing > mogul behind Maxim magazine, usually arrived by > helicopter. He dubbed a > late 2002 12-city trip around England the "Did I Mention > the Free Wine?" > tour, on the advice, he says, of Mick Jagger, his neighbor > on the island > of Mustique. During the reading, young women in tour > T-shirts handed out > free glasses of wine from his own cellar. > > As he read, his words were flashed on a screen and > electronic music, > especially written for him, provided a background. > > "Never go back," Mr. Dennis growled into a microphone, > starting the poem > that kicks off and ends his readings: > > Never go back. > Never return to the haunts of your youth. > Keep to the track, to the beaten track, > Memory holds all you need of the truth. > > In a picaresque career, Mr. Dennis has played drums for > Eric Clapton, > gone to jail for publishing Oz, a crudely satirical > magazine, and > written a biography of Bruce Lee. In his newest chapter, > the British > multimillionaire is on a crusade to challenge the > obscurity of modern > poetry, by reclaiming old-fashioned values of rhyme and > meter. > > His flair for marketing, and his bankroll, are giving him > unusual > success. His first volume of poetry, "A Glass Half Full" > got barely any > attention from serious reviewers but sold all 10,000 > copies printed in > Britain. > > For the American edition, due in September, Mr. Dennis, 56 > years old, is > upgrading his traveling show. He has hired a jet for about > $300,000 to > shuttle him to towns around the country where he plans to > hand out a DVD > of previous performances. Hoping to make a profit from Mr. > Dennis's new > passion, publisher Miramax Books, a unit of Walt Disney > Co., has plans > to print 25,000 copies. Most serious poets are lucky to > sell 3,000. > > "It would be nice if Mr. Letterman or Oprah gave me two > minutes," Mr. > Dennis says. "I'd blow their bloody socks off." > > Mr. Dennis has let his hair grow long and shaggy since he > started > writing seriously in late 2000. He has completed 650 > poems, at last > count, in the four hours a day he devotes to them. Every > few weeks, he > sends what he calls a "wodge" of poems to his editor and > to a lawyer > friend, who stands in for the kind of ordinary reader Mr. > Dennis seeks. > Mr. Dennis then joins the other two in grading his poems. > Those that get > three As make the cut. Cs are discarded. Anything in > between goes up for > discussion or revision. > > Mr. Dennis says in the next few years he's considering > selling Dennis > Publishing, owner of the highly successful Maxim, an > irreverent men's > magazine. He would like to concentrate on poetry and other > interests, he > says, such as accumulating enough land to plant a > 50,000-acre forest in > England, named the Forest of Dennis. He also has an idea > to build > retirement villages for baby boomers. > > His poetry is intended for "people who appear to devour it > as if they've > been starved for 40 or 50 years, which, by the way, they > have," he says. > Easing into a leather armchair in his Manhattan apartment, > Mr. Dennis > accidentally sat on a slim volume of poetry by Ezra Pound, > a poet known > for being impenetrable in his later years. "That's what he > deserves," > Mr. Dennis snorted. "He used to write good poems." > > Some of Mr. Dennis's poems are introspective slices of > life, including > ones about love and his well-publicized former > crack-cocaine habit. > Others are about business, such as a tribute to computer > servers and a > paean to his work ethic called "The Bearded Dwarf." Some > of his poems > are political, such as "The Taking of Saddam." Mr. Dennis > has been > struggling recently with a poem about the Concorde. > > "It harks back to one of my favorite poets, Kipling," says > novelist Tom > Wolfe, who attended a reading in New York. David Carey, > publisher of the > New Yorker, heard him at a conference in Monterey, Calif. > "The audience > was simply blown away," he says. "Most people expected > poems where the > words all rhyme with 'truck.' " > > Many established poets don't seem to think their craft is > in need of > saving. At a London event, Mr. Dennis read a poem titled, > "I Wish I > liked Your Modern Verse...": > > I wish I liked your modern verse, > I wish it were not so...perverse; > I wish the lines were not so dense, > Or even made a bit of sense. > > A poet named Michael Horovitz jumped up and protested that > it was "so > wrong and so unfair," Mr. Dennis recalls. Mr. Horovitz > says he didn't > use those exact words, but he has little admiration for > Mr. Dennis's > style: "He has this maddeningly reactionary and Philistine > concern about > rhyming, which is why Felix, until he gets over it, won't > become a true > poet." He adds that people only bought the book out of > "sheer > gracefulness" in return for free wine. > > Mr. Dennis wrote his first poem in 1999 and was "a bit > embarrassed" by > the idea. He didn't share any of his work until October > 2001, when he > read a poem at a dinner party. "I brought the house down," > he says. "I > felt like a young girl who won her first pony gymkhana." > (A gymkhana is > a sports meet often involving horses.) > > Mr. Dennis duels with his editor, Simon Rae, both agree, > especially > about dog poems, which Mr. Rae thinks pander to the more > mawkish > sentiments of readers. > > "This is an underpandered audience," splutters Mr. Dennis > in response. > "Maybe it's time someone did a little pandering," he says > before > launching into a favorite: > > An old dog is the best dog, > A dog with rheumy eyes; > An old dog is the best dog > A dog grown sad and wise,... > > He takes a breath: "They love these. Audiences like this > stuff." > > Mr. Dennis says he picked the title Maxim in part because > it reminded > him of a Hilaire Belloc poem about British colonialists in > Africa: > "Whatever happens, we have got/The Maxim Gun, and they > have not." He is > particularly proud of a cover line he wrote about the TV > show "Xena, > Warrior Princess" for the April 1999 issue of Maxim: "Xena > Like You've > Never Seen 'Er!" > > American poets aren't rolling out the red carpet. "The > associations > between poetry and poverty are very strong and if you > arrive in a > helicopter, people would doubt your poetic credentials," > says Billy > Collins, the former U.S. poet laureate. > > For the U.S. tour, Miramax plans to excise poems that are > too British. > It had to nix venues that wouldn't allow alcohol to be > served. The > publisher's president, Jonathan Burnham, says Mr. Dennis > will also have > to put aside his cigarettes during performances. "Welcome > to America, > Felix," says Mr. Burnham. > > "Jonathan is not paying for this tour," says Mr. Dennis, > who smokes two > packs a day. "I am." > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed May 5 12:08:13 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 11:08:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] some statistics In-Reply-To: References: <003101c43284$835d2cd0$991c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505105223.01f97590@mail.ilstu.edu> The rightwing US "think"tank known as The Heritage Foundation advocates destroying the entire US education system, all welfare, social security programs, etc. Bush and Co are down with this. But it's not just the attack on the education system. The host of ideological state apparatuses here is massive. For those of you who have never had the experience of living INSIDE this beast, I can tell you that the ideological state apparatuses here are subtle and powerful. Most Americans never leave the country, so they can't feel the extent of the LARGE-SCALE LOSS OF COMPASSION in this society. Short of a socialist revolution -- which can happen here -- the US government cannot and will not be able to educate its own people. Gramsci's "organic intellectuals" are one hope -- and the more I network with others, the more I see this kind of education taking place. The culture industry here is just as Adorno says: it dampens and dumbs. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed May 5 13:13:29 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:13:29 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040505113235.030189f0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <001901c432c4$49623c10$fa1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Well, let me know how and what they should do then since you live outside and have read as much as me against Americans in general, where everything is loathed. Didn't this shape in you a sort of estrangeness for the place in which you lived or do you agree with what people say? From: Paul C. Howell Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 5:37 PM At 10:48 AM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: From: "Anny Ballardini" To: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:58:09 +0200 Difficult to explain, you should have lived abroad for over half your = life to understand what I mean where everything which is American is = considered trash. Even culture, which is anyhow brought forth by the = main intellectuals, see Pavese, for example. From: Paul C. Howell=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:15 PM At 08:28 AM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: it fundamentally reflects my idea of what the U.S.A. should =3D have done after September 11. Just shut down the doors. That simple. If yours were a good idea - I, for one, don't think so - how would you = go about shutting down the doors? Paul C. Howell For the record, I lived outside the USA most of my life - in Europe, Asia & Australia. I still live outside the USA. Does that make it easier to explain how to shut down the doors? Not so far as I can see, but maybe you can explain.... Paul C. Howell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com Wed May 5 13:29:29 2004 From: listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com (Kevin Walzer) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:29:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry In-Reply-To: <20040504051940.0B5EE2087DF@server.wordtechcommunications.com> Message-ID: Below is a posting that I made to Foetry?s columns. The latest contest they?re trying to smear is Ohio State?s poetry contest, run by David Citino. They conjure up a conspiracy to rip off contest submitters because they publish a disproportionate number of ?Ohio poets? (seven of the last twelve winners studied, taught, or edited journals in Ohio). They are outraged by this and call those of us who disagree ?in denial.? I?m really honked off about this because I know a number of people associated with Ohio State, and they have deserved reputations for integrity. I am very angry that this site smears people with the flimsiest of innuendo, then does little to correct the record even when they?re called out. I?m afraid they will delete my post, which is why I?m sending it to the lists. Can we flood these guys with posts disapproving of their site and correcting errors? Generally only a few people respond to them (frequently the poet who has been unfairly smeared). I?d love to overwhelm their message board with people correcting their errors, defending what needs to be defended, and just making them look like the fools they are. There are some problems with contests, but these guys see conspiracies everywhere, and it?s causing needless harm. Anyway?just a suggestion. The URL that I?m citing from is as follows: http://foetry.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=186 My post is below. --- This kind of innuendo is exactly what I'm talking about. You're seeing conspiracies where none exist. Here's a little detail to clarify what you see as a monstrosity and what I see as nothing more than random selection at work: 2004 winner, Beth Gylys: She has a Ph.D. from Cincinnati, earned about eight years ago. I know her personally, since I got my doctorate there also. She has no connection to Ohio State that I know of. She taught for a few years in Pennsylvania and now teaches at a university in Georgia. 2003 winner, Gary Fincke: So earning a Ph.D. from a university in Ohio 30 years ago makes him an Ohio poet? Being from Ohio, I actually take a great deal of interest in the reputation of Ohio writers, and I have never seen Fincke described as such. He teaches at a university in Pennsylvania. 2000 winner, Lia Purpura: I believe she teaches at a university in Baltimore. Again, I have never seen any critical association of her in any way with Ohio. Oberlin is no more an "Ohio college" than Dartmouth is a "Vermont college." It is a prestigious liberal arts college that attracts students on a national basis. 1999 winner, Mary Ann Samyn: She teaches at West Virginia University. Her MA from Ohio University (which I attended as an undergraduate), in academe, would be regarded as a footnote on her vita; her qualifying degree is an MFA from Virginia. The other posters are correct in saying that being associated with Ohio U. is in no way an advantage when dealing with Ohio State. 1999 winner, Judith Hall: She is poetry editor for the Antioch Review, but lives and teaches in California. Again, Antioch, like Oberlin, is in no way "an Ohio college," and Hall is in no way "an Ohio poet." 1994 winner, David Young: Young has taught at Oberlin for more than thirty years, this is true. He is also a poet of national reputation who has published collections with Wesleyan and other large presses; in short, he is the real deal. If anything, Ohio State may have felt they were lucky to get a manuscript from a poet of his stature. 1993, Bruce Beasley: Beasley teaches at Western Washington University and, apart from Oberlin, has no connection to Ohio that I am aware of. After leaving Oberlin, he earned graduate degrees at Columbia (MFA) and Virginia (Ph.D.). By the way, when it comes to connections in po-biz, one's graduate degree is all-important; one's undergraduate degree has little, if any, relevance. If you are looking for an example of a contest for Ohio poets, Cleveland State University sponsors one alongside its national poetry contest. Kent State University also runs a chapbook contest for Ohio poets. Generally these contests require you to be a current resident of Ohio at the time of submitting. Previous association with the state is not a qualifier. You seem to be implying that Ohio State should *exclude* poets who have any form of association with the state, at any time in history--or, at the very least, they should be exercising some kind of geographic affirmative action. "Whoops, we had a poet who was a student in Ohio thirty years ago, doesn't it look bad that we are now choosing a poet who was a student from Ohio eight years ago?" This is ridiculous. Ohio State's contest would be ethically dubious if a number of winners were former students of the judge, David Citino, but to my knowledge none of these winners have studied with him. (OSU has only become a national force in creative writing in the past 10 years or so, anyway.) Having met David Citino and/or corresponded with David Citino a few times--and knowing a lot of people who have worked with him--his reputation is for nothing *but* integrity. I would put Ohio State's contest on your *good* list, not your shit list. Why am I ranting so much? Because, once again, you have tarred and feathered some good people on the flimsiest evidence imaginable. Their reputations will suffer because of your dubious crusade. This site is lacking in integrity. You do not have the courage to accept accountability for your charges. I'm posting here under my own name. You are hiding behind an Internet "handle" and domainsbyproxy.com or some other shadow domain registrar so no one can find out who you are. You are not crusaders working undercover; you are cowards who are slinging mud without fear of reprisal. Additionally, you may ask why I am visiting this site when I find it so distasteful. It's the same reason the media covers the Ku Klux Klan--to expose the message of hatred. Your flimsy insinuations, sloppy fact checking, and general paranoia need to be exposed. A lot of the material at this site borders on reckless disregard for the truth, which is the legal threshhold for a libel suit. You are, quite simply, irresponsible. -- I?d love to hear other thoughts/comments. -- Kevin Walzer, Ph.D. Editor WordTech Communications - A New Paradigm of Poetry http://www.wordtechcommunications.com http://www.smallbizmac.com http://www.kevin-walzer.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crystallyn at gmail.com Wed May 5 13:56:35 2004 From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:56:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <867103AC.26EC4F67@mail.gmail.com> http://www.felixdennis.com/ Sounds rather along the lines of the Jewel, Jim Morrison, Art Garfunkel phenomenon. Reminds me of a poem by Denise Duhamel about the poet getting his due: Sex With A Famous Poet I had sex with a famous poet last night and when I rolled over and found myself beside him I shuddered because I was married to someone else, because I wasn't supposed to have been drinking, because I was in fancy hotel room I didn't recognize. I would have told you right off this was a dream, but recently a friend told me, write about a dream, lose a reader and I didn't want to lose you right away. I wanted you to hear that I didn't even like the poet in the dream, that he has four kids, the youngest one my age, and I find him rather unattractive, that I only met him once, that is, in real life, and that was in a large group in which I barely spoke up. He disgusted me with his disparaging remarks about women. He even used the word "Jap" which I took as a direct insult to my husband who's Asian. When we were first dating, I told him "You were talking in your sleep last night and I listened, just to make sure you didn't call out anyone else's name." My future-husband said that he couldn't be held responsible for his subconscious, which worried me, which made me think his dreams were full of blond vixens in rabbit-fur bikinis. but he said no, he dreamt mostly about boulders and the ocean and volcanoes, dangerous weather he witnessed but could do nothing to stop. And I said, "I dream only of you," which was romantic and silly and untrue. But I never thought I'd dream of another man-- my husband and I hadn't even had a fight, my head tucked sweetly in his armpit, my arm around his belly, which lifted up and down all night, gently like water in a lake. If I passed that famous poet on the street, he would walk by, famous in his sunglasses and blazer with the suede patches at the elbows, without so much as a glance in my direction. I know you're probably curious about who the poet is, so I should tell you the clues I've left aren't accurate, that I've disguised his identity, that you shouldn't guess I bet it's him... because you'll never guess correctly and even if you do, I won't tell you that you have. I wouldn't want to embarrass a stranger who is, after all, probably a nice person, who was probably just having a bad day when I met him, who is probably growing a little tired of his fame-- which my husband and I perceive as enormous, but how much fame can an American poet really have, let's say, compared to a rock star or film director of equal talent? Not that much, and the famous poet knows it, knows that he's not truly given his due. Knows that many of these young poets tugging on his sleeve are only pretending to have read all his books. But he smiles anyway, tries to be helpful. I mean, this poet has to have some redeeming qualities, right? For instance, he writes a mean iambic. Otherwise, what was I doing in his arms. Anonymous submission. ......................... Crystal King We write to taste life twice ~ Anais Nin From chryss at silcom.com Wed May 5 14:19:00 2004 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:19:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis In-Reply-To: <867103AC.26EC4F67@mail.gmail.com> References: <867103AC.26EC4F67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1083781140.40993014d4320@webmail.netlojix.com> I love this! Is "Anonymous submission." part of the poem? C. Quoting Crystal King : > http://www.felixdennis.com/ > > Sounds rather along the lines of the Jewel, Jim Morrison, Art > Garfunkel phenomenon. > > Reminds me of a poem by Denise Duhamel about the poet getting his due: > > Sex With A Famous Poet > > I had sex with a famous poet last night > and when I rolled over and found myself beside him I shuddered > because I was married to someone else, > because I wasn't supposed to have been drinking, > because I was in fancy hotel room > I didn't recognize. I would have told you > right off this was a dream, but recently > a friend told me, write about a dream, > lose a reader and I didn't want to lose you > right away. I wanted you to hear > that I didn't even like the poet in the dream, that he has > four kids, the youngest one my age, and I find him > rather unattractive, that I only met him once, > that is, in real life, and that was in a large group > in which I barely spoke up. He disgusted me > with his disparaging remarks about women. > He even used the word "Jap" > which I took as a direct insult to my husband who's Asian. > When we were first dating, I told him > "You were talking in your sleep last night > and I listened, just to make sure you didn't > call out anyone else's name." My future-husband said > that he couldn't be held responsible for his subconscious, > which worried me, which made me think his dreams > were full of blond vixens in rabbit-fur bikinis. > but he said no, he dreamt mostly about boulders > and the ocean and volcanoes, dangerous weather > he witnessed but could do nothing to stop. > And I said, "I dream only of you," > which was romantic and silly and untrue. > But I never thought I'd dream of another man-- > my husband and I hadn't even had a fight, > my head tucked sweetly in his armpit, my arm > around his belly, which lifted up and down > all night, gently like water in a lake. > If I passed that famous poet on the street, > he would walk by, famous in his sunglasses > and blazer with the suede patches at the elbows, > without so much as a glance in my direction. > I know you're probably curious about who the poet is, > so I should tell you the clues I've left aren't > accurate, that I've disguised his identity, > that you shouldn't guess I bet it's him... > because you'll never guess correctly > and even if you do, I won't tell you that you have. > I wouldn't want to embarrass a stranger > who is, after all, probably a nice person, > who was probably just having a bad day when I met him, > who is probably growing a little tired of his fame-- > which my husband and I perceive as enormous, > but how much fame can an American poet > really have, let's say, compared to a rock star > or film director of equal talent? Not that much, > and the famous poet knows it, knows that he's not > truly given his due. Knows that many > of these young poets tugging on his sleeve > are only pretending to have read all his books. > But he smiles anyway, tries to be helpful. > I mean, this poet has to have some redeeming qualities, right? > For instance, he writes a mean iambic. > Otherwise, what was I doing in his arms. > > Anonymous submission. > > > > ......................... > Crystal King > > We write to taste life twice ~ Anais Nin > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- www.chryssyost.com From crystallyn at gmail.com Wed May 5 14:44:12 2004 From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 14:44:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis In-Reply-To: <1083781140.40993014d4320@webmail.netlojix.com> References: <867103AC.26EC4F67@mail.gmail.com> <1083781140.40993014d4320@webmail.netlojix.com> Message-ID: <8644AAFD.135DDCBD@mail.gmail.com> Yes, that line is in italics, actually, but this email account isn't quite that sophisticated. ;) On Wed, 5 May 2004 11:19:00 -0700, Chryss Yost wrote: > > I love this! Is "Anonymous submission." part of the poem? > C. From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed May 5 14:53:24 2004 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 13:53:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anonymous submission Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2F2@mail.ripon.edu> No, the "anonymous submission" line isn't a part of Duhamel's poem. Looks to me like the poem was snagged from the Plagiarist.com site, which includes names of those who send them poems. I've always wondered why publishers haven't shut down the Plagiarist site. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Crystal King > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, May 5, 2004 1:44 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis > > Yes, that line is in italics, actually, but this email account isn't > quite that sophisticated. ;) > > On Wed, 5 May 2004 11:19:00 -0700, Chryss Yost wrote: > > > > I love this! Is "Anonymous submission." part of the poem? > > C. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed May 5 14:50:14 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:50:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Perihelion Interview Message-ID: In the Joan Houlihan's just-posted interview with me at Perihelion (here's the link to the interview: http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/ ) the following sentence alludes to a now-excised part of our discussion: "What makes the two passages above work is not their elliptical quality or collage-like juxtapositions; it?s the wedding of the haunting metrical music and imagery to induce a certain mood in the reader." Since this is confusing by itself, here's the section of the interview that was cut from the published version: "I wasn?t familiar with Stephen Burt?s poetry, so to answer your question I Googled up a few poems by him, and from the small sample I assembled, I would argue that Burt generally works within the high Modernist tradition of T. S. Eliot, and that like his literary predecessor, the main formal principle informing his work is the one Eliot invoked to explain his own poetic practice: the ?ghost of meter.? The ghost haunting Burt?s poetry appears to be the familiar ghost of iambic pentameter. In fact, Burt imitates many of Eliot?s tactics, such as his paratactic juxtaposition of parts, putting the various sections of his poems together in collage fashion and even sometimes separating them with typographical signs like asterisks or dots or ampersands?or merely space--as Eliot did. Compare the following two passages. The first is the opening section of Eliot?s ?Preludes?; the second is from Burt?s ?A Sudden Rain in the Green Mountains?: I The winter evening settles down With smell of steaks in passageways. Six o?clock. The burnt-out end of smoky days. And now a gusty shower wraps The grimy scraps Of withered leaves about your feet And newspapers from vacant lots; The showers beat On broken blinds and chimney-pots, And at the corner of the street A lonely cab-horse steams and stamps. And then the lighting of the lamps. Now here?s Burt: Plush hills, the raw materials fall away. The soaking clay In which the serried oaks, the picturesque And swaybacked pine, elected to evolve, The famous marble in its bare reserve, Vanish like guesses in these verticals Whose heft at dusk Blurs rooks to ridges, veils to bicycles And splashes where they lean hard into curves. Looming like crowds, such weather makes its world . . . The two sections are nearly identical in their use of iambic meter, lengthening and shortening lines from pentameter to dimeter; in their use of irregular rhymes at similar intervals; in their use of imagery and weather to suggest mood." --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From elemenope at icubed.com Wed May 5 03:06:01 2004 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:06:01 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! In-Reply-To: <200405051601.i45G19XE025695@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200405051601.i45G19XE025695@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Apparently, Professor Gudding by way of Teddy Kennedy's education plan for America attacks Americans to believe in his RadLib MetroSexual GramsciIsm. Gudding and Gramsci, the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of the "I Feel Your Pain" Clintonistas. At least Herr Professor can limp wristedly salute his classroom's Smiley Face Flag sans God&Country in his Pledge of Allegiance as he takes in the latest on what his and Justice Ginsberg's girls can do when given a chance to teach his American values: >Quote of the day: > >"They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel, >and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman." >An al Sadr supporter commenting on torture of Iraqis and >illustrating the distance between our cultures. > >>Americans never leave the country [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] >>, so they can't feel the extent of the >>LARGE-SCALE LOSS OF COMPASSION Ditto: [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] >> in this society. Short of a socialist >>revolution -- which can happen here [It won't, Gudding. Forget it. That approach was abandoned by Governor Bradford.] >> -- the US government cannot and will >>not be able to educate its own people. [Gudding is the result of such an education he deplores!] >> Gramsci's "organic intellectuals" >>are one hope -- and the more I network ["network" = To conspire with Fifth Column RadLib co-travelling cabals descended from the Waldman/Ortega/Squeaky Fromm/Marcusian/Saul Alinsky/SDS Castroistical secret society of the 70s while being salaried to teach "English" by state taxpayers at a public institution inside fortress America (bombed by the IslamoFascists on 9/11/01)]. >> with others, the more I see this >kind of education taking place. [Gudding doesn't teach his self-contradictory politics in a state university where he builds a career leading to tenure and a comfy retirement in Alphabet City?] Gudding published by the University of Pittsburgh Press deep in the heartland of heartless America -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crystallyn at gmail.com Wed May 5 15:28:29 2004 From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:28:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anonymous submission In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2F2@mail.ripon.edu> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2F2@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <869D2215.669E874A@mail.gmail.com> My bad. I'm at work and of course, don't have the book with me. It's from her book, "The Star-Spangled Banner." I searched and snagged it from the first place I found it and not being familiar with Plagiarist I didn't realize that they would add a line like that at the end of the poem! I didn't remember it being there, but assumed my memory was faulty. What an odd way to format. A friend of mine first sent the poem to me a few years ago, suspecting I would like it...that's how I first came across Duhamel and I've since picked up a few of her books (I suppose I'm one of the rare ones that buys tons and tons of poetry books). This poem has always just struck me...the idea of sleeping with the famous poet rather than the rock star. I find a lot of resonance in her work for me. The levity in her work never ceases to bring a smile to my face. She has another great poem about being born on the same day as Boy George. Always made me want to write a poem about how I managed to be born on the same day as Marky Mark... Crystal On Wed, 5 May 2004 13:53:24 -0500, Graham, David wrote: > > No, the "anonymous submission" line isn't a part of Duhamel's poem. Looks > to me like the poem was snagged from the Plagiarist.com site, which includes > names of those who send them poems. > > I've always wondered why publishers haven't shut down the Plagiarist site. . > . . From paul at tbhinc.com Wed May 5 15:31:34 2004 From: paul at tbhinc.com (Paul C. Howell) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:31:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics In-Reply-To: <200405051834.i45IYAXE028751@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040505151858.0301acb8@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 02:34 PM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: >From: "Anny Ballardini" >Well, let me know how and what they should do then since you live = >outside and have read as much as me against Americans in general, where = >everything is loathed. Didn't this shape in you a sort of estrangeness = >for the place in which you lived or do you agree with what people say? > I'm only asking how you would shut down the doors. I'll take your nonanswer as "I don't know." As for bashing of American culture, I don't think you have to go outside the US to know that it happens, though maybe you have to read a little closer or pick up an international publication. There are also plenty of Americanophiles, I mean folks who admire American culture. I don't cringe and sometimes have to defend (or clarify) America's actions, or sometimes (rarely) apologize for them. In most countries I go since 2001 I hear pronounced anti-Bush comments, not anti-American. In less free, less prosperous, less powerful societies, there is probably some envy. But America means inclusion, and if you reverse it to exclusion, you'll kill it. Quite apart from the practical problems of closing down the doors. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed May 5 15:28:30 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 12:28:30 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis References: Message-ID: <4099405E.4062BAFD@earthlink.net> I thought so too, what with sentences like "Mr. Dennis has let his hair grow long and shaggy since he started writing seriously in late 2000." I never have trusted short-haired poets (though they don't shed much, I suppose). - Jim Paul Lake wrote: > > Someone please tell me that this was reprinted from The Onion. > > Paul Lake > > on 5/4/04 8:36 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > He Likes Meter and Rhyme, > Calls Free Verse a Crime > And Dog Poems Sublime > By MATTHEW ROSE > Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL > May 3, 2004; Page A1 > > When he began reading his poetry in public, Felix Dennis, > the publishing > mogul behind Maxim magazine, usually arrived by helicopter. > He dubbed a > late 2002 12-city trip around England the "Did I Mention the > Free Wine?" > tour, on the advice, he says, of Mick Jagger, his neighbor > on the island > of Mustique. During the reading, young women in tour > T-shirts handed out > free glasses of wine from his own cellar. > > As he read, his words were flashed on a screen and > electronic music, > especially written for him, provided a background. > > "Never go back," Mr. Dennis growled into a microphone, > starting the poem > that kicks off and ends his readings: > > Never go back. > Never return to the haunts of your youth. > Keep to the track, to the beaten track, > Memory holds all you need of the truth. > > In a picaresque career, Mr. Dennis has played drums for Eric > Clapton, > gone to jail for publishing Oz, a crudely satirical > magazine, and > written a biography of Bruce Lee. In his newest chapter, the > British > multimillionaire is on a crusade to challenge the obscurity > of modern > poetry, by reclaiming old-fashioned values of rhyme and > meter. > > His flair for marketing, and his bankroll, are giving him > unusual > success. His first volume of poetry, "A Glass Half Full" got > barely any > attention from serious reviewers but sold all 10,000 copies > printed in > Britain. > > For the American edition, due in September, Mr. Dennis, 56 > years old, is > upgrading his traveling show. He has hired a jet for about > $300,000 to > shuttle him to towns around the country where he plans to > hand out a DVD > of previous performances. Hoping to make a profit from Mr. > Dennis's new > passion, publisher Miramax Books, a unit of Walt Disney Co., > has plans > to print 25,000 copies. Most serious poets are lucky to sell > 3,000. > > "It would be nice if Mr. Letterman or Oprah gave me two > minutes," Mr. > Dennis says. "I'd blow their bloody socks off." > > Mr. Dennis has let his hair grow long and shaggy since he > started > writing seriously in late 2000. He has completed 650 poems, > at last > count, in the four hours a day he devotes to them. Every few > weeks, he > sends what he calls a "wodge" of poems to his editor and to > a lawyer > friend, who stands in for the kind of ordinary reader Mr. > Dennis seeks. > Mr. Dennis then joins the other two in grading his poems. > Those that get > three As make the cut. Cs are discarded. Anything in between > goes up for > discussion or revision. > > Mr. Dennis says in the next few years he's considering > selling Dennis > Publishing, owner of the highly successful Maxim, an > irreverent men's > magazine. He would like to concentrate on poetry and other > interests, he > says, such as accumulating enough land to plant a > 50,000-acre forest in > England, named the Forest of Dennis. He also has an idea to > build > retirement villages for baby boomers. > > His poetry is intended for "people who appear to devour it > as if they've > been starved for 40 or 50 years, which, by the way, they > have," he says. > Easing into a leather armchair in his Manhattan apartment, > Mr. Dennis > accidentally sat on a slim volume of poetry by Ezra Pound, a > poet known > for being impenetrable in his later years. "That's what he > deserves," > Mr. Dennis snorted. "He used to write good poems." > > Some of Mr. Dennis's poems are introspective slices of life, > including > ones about love and his well-publicized former crack-cocaine > habit. > Others are about business, such as a tribute to computer > servers and a > paean to his work ethic called "The Bearded Dwarf." Some of > his poems > are political, such as "The Taking of Saddam." Mr. Dennis > has been > struggling recently with a poem about the Concorde. > > "It harks back to one of my favorite poets, Kipling," says > novelist Tom > Wolfe, who attended a reading in New York. David Carey, > publisher of the > New Yorker, heard him at a conference in Monterey, Calif. > "The audience > was simply blown away," he says. "Most people expected poems > where the > words all rhyme with 'truck.' " > > Many established poets don't seem to think their craft is in > need of > saving. At a London event, Mr. Dennis read a poem titled, "I > Wish I > liked Your Modern Verse...": > > I wish I liked your modern verse, > I wish it were not so...perverse; > I wish the lines were not so dense, > Or even made a bit of sense. > > A poet named Michael Horovitz jumped up and protested that > it was "so > wrong and so unfair," Mr. Dennis recalls. Mr. Horovitz says > he didn't > use those exact words, but he has little admiration for Mr. > Dennis's > style: "He has this maddeningly reactionary and Philistine > concern about > rhyming, which is why Felix, until he gets over it, won't > become a true > poet." He adds that people only bought the book out of > "sheer > gracefulness" in return for free wine. > > Mr. Dennis wrote his first poem in 1999 and was "a bit > embarrassed" by > the idea. He didn't share any of his work until October > 2001, when he > read a poem at a dinner party. "I brought the house down," > he says. "I > felt like a young girl who won her first pony gymkhana." (A > gymkhana is > a sports meet often involving horses.) > > Mr. Dennis duels with his editor, Simon Rae, both agree, > especially > about dog poems, which Mr. Rae thinks pander to the more > mawkish > sentiments of readers. > > "This is an underpandered audience," splutters Mr. Dennis in > response. > "Maybe it's time someone did a little pandering," he says > before > launching into a favorite: > > An old dog is the best dog, > A dog with rheumy eyes; > An old dog is the best dog > A dog grown sad and wise,... > > He takes a breath: "They love these. Audiences like this > stuff." > > Mr. Dennis says he picked the title Maxim in part because it > reminded > him of a Hilaire Belloc poem about British colonialists in > Africa: > "Whatever happens, we have got/The Maxim Gun, and they have > not." He is > particularly proud of a cover line he wrote about the TV > show "Xena, > Warrior Princess" for the April 1999 issue of Maxim: "Xena > Like You've > Never Seen 'Er!" > > American poets aren't rolling out the red carpet. "The > associations > between poetry and poverty are very strong and if you arrive > in a > helicopter, people would doubt your poetic credentials," > says Billy > Collins, the former U.S. poet laureate. > > For the U.S. tour, Miramax plans to excise poems that are > too British. > It had to nix venues that wouldn't allow alcohol to be > served. The > publisher's president, Jonathan Burnham, says Mr. Dennis > will also have > to put aside his cigarettes during performances. "Welcome to > America, > Felix," says Mr. Burnham. > > "Jonathan is not paying for this tour," says Mr. Dennis, who > smokes two > packs a day. "I am." From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed May 5 15:43:23 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 14:43:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Link to Perihelion interview Message-ID: I posted the link to Perihelion's home page in my first post about my interview. If you use the one I posted, you'll have to click on "Profile" to see the interview. Here's the direct link: http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/p-profile13.htm Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Wed May 5 09:01:24 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:01:24 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry References: Message-ID: FoetryBelow is a posting that I made to Foetry's columns. The latest contest they're trying to smear is Ohio State's poetry contest, run by David Citino. They conjure up a conspiracy to rip off contest submitters because they publish a disproportionate number of "Ohio poets" (seven of the last twelve winners studied, taught, or edited journals in Ohio). They are outraged by this and call those of us who disagree "in denial." --Kevin W. **************** Dear Kevin, There is an exhortation in the Epistles to "avoid all appearance of evil." The preponderance of Ohio-connected winners, unfortunately, does not avoid the appearance, though I trust your version of the reality. I haven't been to Foetry yet, but being from LA, it's all about appearances and you can't win with facts on something like this. I do admire your defense. And at least your discussion is about literature. The recent political polemics are, as Eliot said, "not what one expected" on a literary listserv, but this stuff comes up on discussion boards all the time anyway. Presently at Melic's free discussion board we have a rabid poster calling everyone anti-Semites. Anyway, there has also been a sub-thread on education on this list, and on that score I have two comments: All didacts are autodidacts, or, as Bertrand Russell remarked, "The University is in its books." My own polemic against the _god of universal tolerance without distinctions_ was more in a general philosophical vein, I hoped, but I apologize to any who may have taken umbrage, though I did append a poem for the sake of literary discussion, and I wasn't trying to be witty or funny, though one judged me on that score. "If they can't take a joke, fuck 'em." --Dweebler Cramden --CE From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 16:12:29 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:12:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] some statistics References: <003101c43284$835d2cd0$991c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <40994AAC.608E6FB4@ix.netcom.com> Actually, so-called 'foreign aid' is mostly in the form of credits to U.S. companies and producers. To 'shut the doors' is to deny U.S. based corporate interests these taxpayer based revenues. CP "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. 'Liberty' is a well-armed lemming consenting to be lunch." - Banjoman Frankling, 1759 Anny Ballardini wrote: > I think people should be aware of this, that is why I am > pasting here below, and it fundamentally reflects my idea > of what the U.S.A. should have done after September 11. > Just shut down the doors. That simple. >Below are the > actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic States > which>are recorded in both the US State Department and > United Nations records:>>Kuwait votes against the United > States 67% of the time.>>Qatar votes against the United > States 67% of the time.>>Morocco votes against the United > States 70% of the time.>>United Arab Emirates votes > against the U. S. 70% of the time.>>Jordan votes against > the United States 71% of the time.>>Tunisia votes against > the United States 71% of the time.>>Saudi Arabia votes > against the United States 73% of the time.>>Yemen votes > against the United States 74% of the time.>>Algeria votes > against the United States 74% of the time.>>Oman votes > against the United States 74% of the time.>>Sudan votes > against the United States 75% of the time.>>Pakistan votes > against the United States 75% of the time.>>Libya votes > against the United States 76% of the time.>>Egypt votes > against the United States 79% of the time.>>Lebanon votes > against the United States 80% of the time.>>India votes > against the United States 81% of the time.>>Syria votes > against the United States 84% of the time.>>Mauritania > votes against the United States 87% of the time.>>US > Foreign Aid to those that hate us:>Egypt, for example, > after voting 79% of the time against the United > States,>still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign > Aid.>>Jordan votes 71% against the United States and > receives $192,814,000>annually in US Foreign > Aid.>>Pakistan votes 75% against the United States and > receives $6,721,000>annually in US Foreign Aid.>>India > votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000 > annually>>Perhaps it is time to get out of the UN and give > the tax savings back to the>American workers who are > having to skimp and sacrifice to pay the taxes.>>Now they > want to cut oil production, We should cut aid to them by > 50% to>start. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmurray at uta.edu Wed May 5 17:01:12 2004 From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 16:01:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! Message-ID: My Un-asked-for Two Cents: Assuming that American eduction at least teaches students to question all kinds of assumptions, it looks as if plenty of that is going on here both from Gabe Gudding and Elemenope, so I want to add my own question in the form of an observation: I don't see where the problems of culture and politics under consideration are the fault of Mr. Gudding, as this relentlessly and unconvincingly posits. On the other hand, the part of this that is not repeating a form of ad hominem, offensive, distraction from issues, *is* worth some additional attention, and that is this "Quote of the day" which is full of oddly genderized rhetorical violence--doubling up the violences in the rhetorical sense of things. Something I hadn't yet heard anyone notice very much, but am glad to see,. Unfortunately it is couched in what seems to me the very wrong-headed ad hominem attack on Mr. Gudding's sincerely meant contribution to discussion, so is yet again de-railed as a viable issue. My humble opinion, of course. Best Wishes, Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of ELEMENOPE Productions Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:06 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! Apparently, Professor Gudding by way of Teddy Kennedy's education plan for America attacks Americans to believe in his RadLib MetroSexual GramsciIsm. Gudding and Gramsci, the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of the "I Feel Your Pain" Clintonistas. At least Herr Professor can limp wristedly salute his classroom's Smiley Face Flag sans God&Country in his Pledge of Allegiance as he takes in the latest on what his and Justice Ginsberg's girls can do when given a chance to teach his American values: Quote of the day: "They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel, and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman." An al Sadr supporter commenting on torture of Iraqis and illustrating the distance between our cultures. Americans never leave the country [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] , so they can't feel the extent of the LARGE-SCALE LOSS OF COMPASSION Ditto: [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] in this society. Short of a socialist revolution -- which can happen here [It won't, Gudding. Forget it. That approach was abandoned by Governor Bradford.] -- the US government cannot and will not be able to educate its own people. [Gudding is the result of such an education he deplores!] Gramsci's "organic intellectuals" are one hope -- and the more I network ["network" = To conspire with Fifth Column RadLib co-travelling cabals descended from the Waldman/Ortega/Squeaky Fromm/Marcusian/Saul Alinsky/SDS Castroistical secret society of the 70s while being salaried to teach "English" by state taxpayers at a public institution inside fortress America (bombed by the IslamoFascists on 9/11/01)]. with others, the more I see this kind of education taking place. [Gudding doesn't teach his self-contradictory politics in a state university where he builds a career leading to tenure and a comfy retirement in Alphabet City?] Gudding published by the University of Pittsburgh Press deep in the heartland of heartless America -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed May 5 17:07:16 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 23:07:16 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040505151858.0301acb8@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <001401c432e4$f2fe4960$0d1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Whatever you wish, I anyhow never said I do not know. And from the way things have been set it seems that you have your own ideas and I have mine. Therefore the conversation has become two monologues. Anyhow what the two of us will be saying will have no weight on anybody. My experience differs from yours because except short trips I have been living in Italy and I know how the situation is here. But to state this - and with an open mind - means that I can also see how it is in the States, or in Australia (where I guess you are now) and the only conclusion rotates on power given by money be it within a restricted environment or one can broaden the concept to reach an international level. The difference between the average American and the average Italian is a difference in consciousness, fact dictated by historical and actual factors. All the best, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul C. Howell To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Some Statistics At 02:34 PM 5/5/2004 -0400, you wrote: From: "Anny Ballardini" Well, let me know how and what they should do then since you live = outside and have read as much as me against Americans in general, where = everything is loathed. Didn't this shape in you a sort of estrangeness = for the place in which you lived or do you agree with what people say? I'm only asking how you would shut down the doors. I'll take your nonanswer as "I don't know." As for bashing of American culture, I don't think you have to go outside the US to know that it happens, though maybe you have to read a little closer or pick up an international publication. There are also plenty of Americanophiles, I mean folks who admire American culture. I don't cringe and sometimes have to defend (or clarify) America's actions, or sometimes (rarely) apologize for them. In most countries I go since 2001 I hear pronounced anti-Bush comments, not anti-American. In less free, less prosperous, less powerful societies, there is probably some envy. But America means inclusion, and if you reverse it to exclusion, you'll kill it. Quite apart from the practical problems of closing down the doors. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed May 5 17:27:42 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:27:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry In-Reply-To: References: <20040504051940.0B5EE2087DF@server.wordtechcommunications.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505153450.02059d10@mail.ilstu.edu> Kevin's point is apt, but I think ultimately points up the free market model behind both his critique of the Foetry website AND these mainstream poetry contests (and I myself am a winner of one of these, so I implicate myself here as well). The idea that the system is not impersonal seems to violate the latent free market sensibility that implies Adam Smith's "invisible hand" should operate here as well. When this fails, when we see evidence, that is, of the human, the social, the regional, we assume aesthetics were not considered. It's basically an old aestheticist position: that aesthetics ought and can be universal and must transcend the local and the situated. Behind this is the all-too-American idea (at core a Romantic one) that the aesthetic is discrete from the social. These two realms are however powerfully interconnected. I would personally like to see the Foetry website be more nuanced and capable of complicating these relationships at teh same time that its analysis remains. At 12:29 PM 5/5/2004, Kevin Walzer wrote: >Below is a posting that I made to Foetry's columns. The latest contest >they're trying to smear is Ohio State's poetry contest, run by David >Citino. They conjure up a conspiracy to rip off contest submitters because >they publish a disproportionate number of "Ohio poets" (seven of the last >twelve winners studied, taught, or edited journals in Ohio). They are >outraged by this and call those of us who disagree "in denial." > >I'm really honked off about this... __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed May 5 19:04:45 2004 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 15:04:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry Message-ID: <200405052147.i45LlwT7210816@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> I've nothing against nepotism per se.... it's just that many of its most ardent practitioners often never want to admit that's what they do and in fact are very careful to want to avoid the "appearance of" it... c ---------- >From: Gabriel Gudding >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, "Discussion of Women's Poetry List" , new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Foetry >Date: Wed, May 5, 2004, 1:27 PM > > Kevin's point is apt, but I think ultimately points up the free market > model behind both his critique of the Foetry website AND these mainstream > poetry contests (and I myself am a winner of one of these, so I implicate > myself here as well). The idea that the system is not impersonal seems to > violate the latent free market sensibility that implies Adam Smith's > "invisible hand" should operate here as well. When this fails, when we see > evidence, that is, of the human, the social, the regional, we assume > aesthetics were not considered. It's basically an old aestheticist > position: that aesthetics ought and can be universal and must transcend the > local and the situated. > > Behind this is the all-too-American idea (at core a Romantic one) that the > aesthetic is discrete from the social. These two realms are however > powerfully interconnected. I would personally like to see the Foetry > website be more nuanced and capable of complicating these relationships at > teh same time that its analysis remains. > > At 12:29 PM 5/5/2004, Kevin Walzer wrote: >>Below is a posting that I made to Foetry's columns. The latest contest >>they're trying to smear is Ohio State's poetry contest, run by David >>Citino. They conjure up a conspiracy to rip off contest submitters because >>they publish a disproportionate number of "Ohio poets" (seven of the last >>twelve winners studied, taught, or edited journals in Ohio). They are >>outraged by this and call those of us who disagree "in denial." >> >>I'm really honked off about this... > > __________________ > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > gmguddi at ilstu.edu > > > __________________ > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > gmguddi at ilstu.edu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed May 5 17:48:53 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 23:48:53 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! References: Message-ID: <006601c432ea$c2ca7240$0d1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Professor Gudding Derides Again!I apologize for having triggered all this. Since I well know of the opposite factions on this list I should have had to guess in advance the development of what a message like the one I sent in would start. A message which indicates a level of emotional explosion due to a long way to hell as Dante would put it, I would like to ask, is there anybody who can understand how distant at a cultural level I see this European world - envy of all just a century ago - and now deeply rotten in a further repercussion of a never-ending recovery of the disasters of the Second World War? If poets have antennas and if we are all poets, how is it possible for our opinions to differ so much? Best again, Anny From: Christine Murray Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 11:01 PM My Un-asked-for Two Cents: Assuming that American eduction at least teaches students to question all kinds of assumptions, it looks as if plenty of that is going on here both from Gabe Gudding and Elemenope, so I want to add my own question in the form of an observation: I don't see where the problems of culture and politics under consideration are the fault of Mr. Gudding, as this relentlessly and unconvincingly posits. On the other hand, the part of this that is not repeating a form of ad hominem, offensive, distraction from issues, *is* worth some additional attention, and that is this "Quote of the day" which is full of oddly genderized rhetorical violence--doubling up the violences in the rhetorical sense of things. Something I hadn't yet heard anyone notice very much, but am glad to see,. Unfortunately it is couched in what seems to me the very wrong-headed ad hominem attack on Mr. Gudding's sincerely meant contribution to discussion, so is yet again de-railed as a viable issue. My humble opinion, of course. Best Wishes, Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of ELEMENOPE Productions Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:06 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! Apparently, Professor Gudding by way of Teddy Kennedy's education plan for America attacks Americans to believe in his RadLib MetroSexual GramsciIsm. Gudding and Gramsci, the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of the "I Feel Your Pain" Clintonistas. At least Herr Professor can limp wristedly salute his classroom's Smiley Face Flag sans God&Country in his Pledge of Allegiance as he takes in the latest on what his and Justice Ginsberg's girls can do when given a chance to teach his American values: Quote of the day: "They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel, and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman." An al Sadr supporter commenting on torture of Iraqis and illustrating the distance between our cultures. Americans never leave the country [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] , so they can't feel the extent of the LARGE-SCALE LOSS OF COMPASSION Ditto: [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] in this society. Short of a socialist revolution -- which can happen here [It won't, Gudding. Forget it. That approach was abandoned by Governor Bradford.] -- the US government cannot and will not be able to educate its own people. [Gudding is the result of such an education he deplores!] Gramsci's "organic intellectuals" are one hope -- and the more I network ["network" = To conspire with Fifth Column RadLib co-travelling cabals descended from the Waldman/Ortega/Squeaky Fromm/Marcusian/Saul Alinsky/SDS Castroistical secret society of the 70s while being salaried to teach "English" by state taxpayers at a public institution inside fortress America (bombed by the IslamoFascists on 9/11/01)]. with others, the more I see this kind of education taking place. [Gudding doesn't teach his self-contradictory politics in a state university where he builds a career leading to tenure and a comfy retirement in Alphabet City?] Gudding published by the University of Pittsburgh Press deep in the heartland of heartless America -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed May 5 17:49:27 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 16:49:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor ..Derides Again! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> Chris, Thanks for pointing out the gender violence embedded in Dillon's weirdly violent (and apparently drunken) ad hominen attack. I thought for a second Bill O'Reilly had gotten on the list. Gabe At 04:01 PM 5/5/2004, Christine Murray wrote: >On the other hand, the part of this that is not repeating a form of ad >hominem, offensive, distraction from issues, *is* worth some additional >attention, and that is this "Quote of the day" which is full of oddly >genderized rhetorical violence--doubling up the violences in the >rhetorical sense of things. Something I hadn't yet heard anyone notice >very much, but am glad to see,. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 5 17:59:14 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 17:59:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis References: <82.b0cca7c.2dc99f04@aol.com> <40990625.94A37B01@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <00f101c432ec$360feae0$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> The problem with Dennis is not his poetry, which isn't worse than most Knopf/New Yorker/APR/Poetry/Iowa poetry, but that he thinks--like too many others including what I've been calling burstnorm poets but not me despit the way I'm misrepresented--that his kind of poetry is the only good or genuine kind there is. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 5 18:41:24 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 18:41:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Foetry References: <20040504051940.0B5EE2087DF@server.wordtechcommunications.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20040505153450.02059d10@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <018201c432f2$1b834a40$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> It's basically an old aestheticist > position: that aesthetics ought and can be universal and must transcend the > local and the situated. Not necessarily. Answering only for my aestheticist position, someone's aesthetics should be considered. Judges saying the winner won because his poetry had the best rhymes is okay with me; judges saying the winner won because the moral of his poem was that we must love or die is not okay with me. The first uses aesthetics to judge poetry, as is proper since poetry is an art; the second uses morality to judge poetry, as is improper because poetry is not propaganda. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmurray at uta.edu Wed May 5 19:14:36 2004 From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 18:14:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor ..Derides Again! Message-ID: Gabe, Yes, it seemed necessary, though I didn't know the circumstances you mention. I only know a few folks here, my friend Anny among them and whose work and considered thought I admire on many things, so I am not as aware as many here would be, then, about whatever personal habits and influences might inform anyone's posts. If what you imply about Dillon is true, then I am sorry to hear it, since the influence of excess alcohol certainly harbors all kinds of violence, first of all for the user. I just thought that post very unfortunate for the unreasonable, uncalled for attack on you, and then it was doubly dismaying to see the highlighting of that gender-based clip from the news which I had already been thinking should undergo critical discussion. Perhaps in one of my classrooms, then (at some point, though semester's ending now...). Hoping Dillon swings back into a more reasonable shape soon, and that this kind of attack does not occur often here... . Thanks for the word on this, Gabe. Best Wishes, Chris -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu; 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu' Sent: 5/5/2004 4:49 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Professor ..Derides Again! Chris, Thanks for pointing out the gender violence embedded in Dillon's weirdly violent (and apparently drunken) ad hominen attack. I thought for a second Bill O'Reilly had gotten on the list. Gabe At 04:01 PM 5/5/2004, Christine Murray wrote: On the other hand, the part of this that is not repeating a form of ad hominem, offensive, distraction from issues, *is* worth some additional attention, and that is this "Quote of the day" which is full of oddly genderized rhetorical violence--doubling up the violences in the rhetorical sense of things. Something I hadn't yet heard anyone notice very much, but am glad to see,. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 5 19:17:05 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:17:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Perihelion Interview References: Message-ID: <019301c432f7$169aef60$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I've only skimmed Paul's essay, but read enough to want to know why it's considered to be about "contemporary poetry?" I did note that he mentions language poetry once in it. I also read enough of it to believe that it's intelligent and worth more than a skim, so will return to it when I have time to devote more study to what I call songmode poetry. One point in the essay I agreed with--that making it new can go in any direction. I just wonder exactly what a poet using a long-received technique like rhyme or meter can do now to make it new--in any significant way. Another point I can't say I understood was Paul's suggestion that someone using "free verse" should necessarily ignore all restrictions, such as grammatical rules, etc. I understand "free verse" to be simply verse that is free of the need to be metrically regular or use rhyme. There's no requirement that it be maximally free. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmurray at uta.edu Wed May 5 19:21:22 2004 From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 18:21:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! Message-ID: Gee, Anny. I entered this discussion peripherally, after seeing what seemed to me an unreasonable post from someone attacking Gabe Gudding. But now reading this, I have to say that you should be able to express your opinion without worry about factionalizing in such a large and actively intellectual forum as is this list. Or maybe I misunderstand. I am interested in your perspective on Europe, especially the point about historical trajectory since WWII. But if you would rather, we can backchannel on that. Best Wishes, Chris -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/5/2004 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! I apologize for having triggered all this. Since I well know of the opposite factions on this list I should have had to guess in advance the development of what a message like the one I sent in would start. A message which indicates a level of emotional explosion due to a long way to hell as Dante would put it, I would like to ask, is there anybody who can understand how distant at a cultural level I see this European world - envy of all just a century ago - and now deeply rotten in a further repercussion of a never-ending recovery of the disasters of the Second World War? If poets have antennas and if we are all poets, how is it possible for our opinions to differ so much? Best again, Anny From: Christine Murray Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 11:01 PM My Un-asked-for Two Cents: Assuming that American eduction at least teaches students to question all kinds of assumptions, it looks as if plenty of that is going on here both from Gabe Gudding and Elemenope, so I want to add my own question in the form of an observation: I don't see where the problems of culture and politics under consideration are the fault of Mr. Gudding, as this relentlessly and unconvincingly posits. On the other hand, the part of this that is not repeating a form of ad hominem, offensive, distraction from issues, *is* worth some additional attention, and that is this "Quote of the day" which is full of oddly genderized rhetorical violence--doubling up the violences in the rhetorical sense of things. Something I hadn't yet heard anyone notice very much, but am glad to see,. Unfortunately it is couched in what seems to me the very wrong-headed ad hominem attack on Mr. Gudding's sincerely meant contribution to discussion, so is yet again de-railed as a viable issue. My humble opinion, of course. Best Wishes, Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of ELEMENOPE Productions Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:06 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gudding Derides Again! Apparently, Professor Gudding by way of Teddy Kennedy's education plan for America attacks Americans to believe in his RadLib MetroSexual GramsciIsm. Gudding and Gramsci, the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of the "I Feel Your Pain" Clintonistas. At least Herr Professor can limp wristedly salute his classroom's Smiley Face Flag sans God&Country in his Pledge of Allegiance as he takes in the latest on what his and Justice Ginsberg's girls can do when given a chance to teach his American values: Quote of the day: "They wanted us to feel as though we were women, the way women feel, and this is the worst insult, to feel like a woman." An al Sadr supporter commenting on torture of Iraqis and illustrating the distance between our cultures. Americans never leave the country [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] , so they can't feel the extent of the LARGE-SCALE LOSS OF COMPASSION Ditto: [A million new Americans a year, plus how many million illegals - - they just got here and now Gudding wants "us" to leave!] in this society. Short of a socialist revolution -- which can happen here [It won't, Gudding. Forget it. That approach was abandoned by Governor Bradford.] -- the US government cannot and will not be able to educate its own people. [Gudding is the result of such an education he deplores!] Gramsci's "organic intellectuals" are one hope -- and the more I network ["network" = To conspire with Fifth Column RadLib co-travelling cabals descended from the Waldman/Ortega/Squeaky Fromm/Marcusian/Saul Alinsky/SDS Castroistical secret society of the 70s while being salaried to teach "English" by state taxpayers at a public institution inside fortress America (bombed by the IslamoFascists on 9/11/01)]. with others, the more I see this kind of education taking place. [Gudding doesn't teach his self-contradictory politics in a state university where he builds a career leading to tenure and a comfy retirement in Alphabet City?] Gudding published by the University of Pittsburgh Press deep in the heartland of heartless America -- From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 5 19:23:49 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 19:23:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor ..Derides Again! References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Chris, Thanks for pointing out the gender violence embedded in Dillon's weirdly violent (and apparently drunken) ad hominen attack. I thought for a second Bill O'Reilly had gotten on the list. Gabe Can't refute the characterization? Then call it ad hominem--even though it points out quite a few contradictions in your boilerplate, Gabe. Now back to poetry and poetics for me. --Bob G. At 04:01 PM 5/5/2004, Christine Murray wrote: On the other hand, the part of this that is not repeating a form of ad hominem, offensive, distraction from issues, *is* worth some additional attention, and that is this "Quote of the day" which is full of oddly genderized rhetorical violence--doubling up the violences in the rhetorical sense of things. Something I hadn't yet heard anyone notice very much, but am glad to see,. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 19:08:32 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:08:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yes, dismissive and typical, indeed. References: <200405051601.i45G19XE025695@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <409973F0.5E7F2366@ix.netcom.com> ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Apparently, Perfessor Gooddung by way of Tweedy Kennedy's > edjecation plan for America attacks me ultimo Americano to > believe in his RadLip MacroSexual Gramscionanism, 25 years > in prison, and how can I get my musso linied without same > sex Bubba at the big house chapel of love? Who better to > open a home schooling, Jacquard loom plant than the Hoover > Instipute. Gudding and Gramsci (O Please), the Rosenberg > and Guildenstern, Clinton and Albright of the "I Feel Your > Pain" bombed out Serbs. Who lost Stari Trg mining complex > to the Bechtel environmentalists while the simpler > explanations flood the minds of the Philadelphia indulged, > their eyes rolled back in their heads in an epileptic > spooge. Yes, dismissive and typical, indeed reads response > number 3 . "Indeed," for class emphases. Who needs Cohen? > Sammy? William? Al? Brothers? Dis miss don't get > why Poet June Carter (Does he mean Clohen?) isn't the main > act in PG&L's fantasy, having lit up the lit up Ol' Opry > with a walk in > by Castro in El Casino Luciano with Richard Ricardos > pantskeys around his antskies? Hell, bring Saddam if you > gottem, Mombo, he's a Social poet AND > divine comedia with that Groucho Marxist brushwork > whatever I mean and Ford will Saddamize your car for > $49.95 like Earl Scheib done down on Taylor Street in the > day. The Jesse Helms, Rush Limbaugh, Strom Thurmond pinch > 'em and lynch 'em good ol' days. We gotta gotta get 'em in > the back somehow! If they included the Chateau Bardot I 'd > change my tune though I'd rather use a Ralph Reed to > scratch my ass with my antennae than find a frequency > where I'd have to listen to these Red baiters baiting > their hooks with Reds that's everywhere the man who kills > the ants is coming today after filling hs boots with Piss > and Boots.. > > Roberts do her Reptilian/Republican quips, Why? when > Buckley willingly lick his lips, stroke his hips, why the > need for parody? Its roadkill overkill. > Stage it all in Georgetown at Harryman's house for Sense > with Franky 'How Green Is My' Valli and The Four Lesions > singing Big Girls Don't Fly to Kate Millett. Then they got > me going at least > both ways out of all the sides of my mouse spinning in > circles at > 78 revolutions per NY minute spit sputtering from every Go > Nad. > > At least Hairy Perfessor, bombshell to of the Serbs, lover > and hugger of Democratic State Dept. flunkies can limp > wristedly salute his classroom's Stares and Straps sans > God & Country who fled that field as soon as it was named > in that bloodrighte Plundge of Alleganz, the first carrion > pigeons to base a political patty on statues or to be the > social type at all and then eat 'em when they was leanin' > over the buffet e.g. the swill pail.. > >> Quote of the day: >> >> "They wanted us to feel as though we were poets, the way >> poets feel, and this is the worst insult, to feel like a >> poet." > >> A Wall Street reporter commenting on torture of Iraqis >> and illustrating the distance between our cultures. > > "The number one reason for immigration to the U.S. is > U.S. foreign policy." Pat Buchanan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed May 5 20:02:20 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 17:02:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Big Tent School In-Reply-To: <200405051448.i45Em1XE023510@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040505165731.00b9ce98@incoming.verizon.net> Thinking about the helicopter poetaster with his helicopter and free wine, it comes to me that his "work" offers occasion to resolve the nagging taxonomy problem with one swish of the Gordian knife, viz: TOTAL TAXONOMY (1) poems; (2)"jingles" (to be kind) -- thus releasing imagination from the Procrustean bed of "irritable reaching after fact and reason." snidely, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed May 5 20:08:08 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 19:08:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics In-Reply-To: <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505185718.01eba7d8@mail.ilstu.edu> You can't separate Dillon's violence from mainstream poetry, Bob. There is a visible relationship between the disciplining of poetry through verbal violence (whether its Dillon's or Jim Behrle's or Houlihan's or Wm Logan's or Dale Smith's) and the policing of normative attitudes that one can have public conversations about it. It's no coincidence that outlining the relations of production, as the Foetry website tries to do (and cd do much better), or mentioning the relation between the social and the aesthetic, wakes the need to coerce and make violence among those invested in keeping the two separate. At 06:23 PM 5/5/2004, Bob Grumman wrote: >Can't refute the characterization? Then call it ad hominem--even though >it points out quite a few contradictions in your boilerplate, Gabe. > >Now back to poetry and poetics for me. > >--Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 5 20:49:54 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:49:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Big Tent School References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040505165731.00b9ce98@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <021501c43304$0e209a80$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thinking about the helicopter poetaster with his helicopter and free wine, it comes to me that his "work" offers occasion to resolve the nagging taxonomy problem with one swish of the Gordian knife, viz: TOTAL TAXONOMY (1) poems; (2)"jingles" (to be kind) -- thus releasing imagination from the Procrustean bed of "irritable reaching after fact and reason." Taxonomy of what, Barry? Do you really believe anything that isn't a jingle is a poem? --Bob G., fearful for his status as only taxonomist at New-Poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 5 20:52:30 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:52:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <6.0.3.0.2.20040505185718.01eba7d8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <021a01c43304$6ae58910$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > You can't separate Dillon's violence from mainstream poetry, Bob. There is > a visible relationship between the disciplining of poetry through verbal > violence (whether its Dillon's or Jim Behrle's or Houlihan's or Wm Logan's > or Dale Smith's) and the policing of normative attitudes such as this of yours, which part of Richard's critique alluded to And that really IS all I'm saying in this thread. --Bob G. From lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu Wed May 5 22:15:35 2004 From: lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 22:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas A. Edison as poet Message-ID: Last month the NY TIMES gave favorable attention to the current issue of JOURNAL OF NJ POETS (No. 41. 2004). The editor, Sandy Zulauf, read several selections from the issue at a noon-time reading at NJ Historical Society in Newark on April 21st. I particularly enjoyed one of the found poems "by" Thomas A. Edison, prose set in the typography of poems by a scholar Blaine McCormick researching Edison's papers, with a fine ear for verbal magic. Lutibelle/Louie I Didn't Have Much Faith I didn't have much faith that it would work, expecting that I might hear a word or so that would give hope of a future for the idea. Kreuzi, when he had nearly finished it, asked what it was for. I told him that I was going to record talking, and then have the machine talk back. He thought it absurd. However, it was finished, the foil put on; I then shouted Mary had a little lamb, etc. I adjusted the reproducer and the machine reproduced it perfectly. I was never so taken back in my life. Everybody was astonished. I was always afraid of things that worked the first time Thomas A. Edison From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Wed May 5 22:39:51 2004 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 21:39:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH In-Reply-To: References: <1f1.1f9a3a34.2dc99bb3@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040505213325.01bd1ac8@medicine.nodak.edu> At 07:40 AM 5/5/2004 -0500, Paul Lake wrote: >Ive always admired this poemand others like it that get hold of the world >and all its mundane but oddly strange and beautiful objects. > >Paul To add to your collection, Paul: What People Make They make wars, babies, sonnets, money, haste, Fantastic visions, patent leather shoes, Pledges to keep, paper towels to waste, Long recipes for life and oyster stews, Thick books contrived for everybody's taste, Slim volumes only doting authors choose, New glasses for the old when they're replaced, And awkward pauses anyone can use. For people stuck on sticking, they make paste; For people stuck on answers, they make clues; For people just plain stuck, or who are faced With failure, they make big bottles of booze; And for those seeking simply to amuse Themselves a moment, people make kazoos. Thomas Carper Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 22:36:23 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 22:36:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Big Tent School References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040505165731.00b9ce98@incoming.verizon.net> <021501c43304$0e209a80$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4099A4A7.A31407CA@ix.netcom.com> Bob, You ain't the only taxidermist at New Poetry by no long squat. Your among friends in that compartment e.g. taxonomy. CP Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Thinking about the helicopter poetaster with his > helicopter and free wine, > it comes to me that his "work" offers occasion > to resolve the nagging taxonomy > problem with one swish of the Gordian knife, > viz: > > TOTAL TAXONOMY > (1) poems; (2)"jingles" > (to be kind) > > > -- thus releasing imagination from > the Procrustean bed of "irritable > reaching after fact and reason."Taxonomy of > what, Barry? Do you really believe anything > that isn't a jingle is a poem? --Bob G., fearful > for his status as only taxonomist at New-Poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 22:46:31 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 22:46:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <6.0.3.0.2.20040505185718.01eba7d8@mail.ilstu.edu> <021a01c43304$6ae58910$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4099A706.9133098D@ix.netcom.com> That's right Bob. Is R.D. the Mistress of Discipline? Does he not, not bring you pleasure. So how could he. Does his beyond reach monkey shot evoke terror or happy feelings of a postcard slappy fumarole? We think the latter. And it is his need. Would we miss such amusements? We believe it to be. CP Bob Grumman wrote: > > You can't separate Dillon's violence from mainstream poetry, Bob. There is > > a visible relationship between the disciplining of poetry through verbal > > violence (whether its Dillon's or Jim Behrle's or Houlihan's or Wm Logan's > > or Dale Smith's) and the policing of normative attitudes > > such as this of yours, which part of Richard's critique alluded to > > And that really IS all I'm saying in this thread. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu May 6 00:05:41 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 23:05:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! Message-ID: A blurb found on Charlie Smith's new book, *Women in America*: "Smith writes with a scalding aortal brilliance that leaves the reader drunk on dream." (New York Times Book Review) Aortal brilliance? Man, the last time I got drunk on aortal brilliance I had a hangover for weeks. . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From barry.spacks at verizon.net Thu May 6 00:21:24 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 21:21:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] UGH! In-Reply-To: <200405060040.i460e3XE000941@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040505210955.00b968c8@incoming.verizon.net> ELEMENOPE Productions wrote >Apparently, Professor Gudding... mouth-foam all over the screen! mercy. swallow just a bit of that bile? move on to RRRESTEAYOUVEE Productions? someone give the man a stick to bite on? four rubber walls to pound? Suuulfah! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 6 01:48:29 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 00:48:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! References: Message-ID: what happened to aortic, as in aortic valve? --dumb doctor ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 11:05 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! | A blurb found on Charlie Smith's new book, *Women in America*: | | "Smith writes with a scalding aortal brilliance that leaves the reader drunk | on dream." (New York Times Book Review) | | Aortal brilliance? Man, the last time I got drunk on aortal brilliance I | had a hangover for weeks. . . . | | ==================================================== | David Graham | grahamd at ripon.edu | Home Page: | http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html | Poetry Library: | http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html | ==================================================== | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 6 05:12:05 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:12:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <6.0.3.0.2.20040505185718.01eba7d8@mail.ilstu.edu> <021a01c43304$6ae58910$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <05d001c4334a$335e21a0$d3309b51@MyPC> > such as this of yours, which part of Richard's critique alluded to Nice to see, Bob, that at least someone other than me manages to refer to Elemnope by his given-name. One of the dafter manifestations of the current worm-weather in cyberspace that I've encountered is someone who huffed-off a list because of an argument over Swift's "Tale of a Tub" -- is this a Renaissance text or part of the long [sic] 18thC? Dog knows I'm as much up to a flame-war as anyone, but this seems to be carrying things to an extreme. Are we all wilting violets or what? I was trained in the principle that a disagreement over the placement of a comma in a Milton sonnet was enough to ruin a friendship, but heavens to betsy, isn't this carrying things to an extreme? Dee2 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 6 06:25:25 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 06:25:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] from the Big Tent School References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040505165731.00b9ce98@incoming.verizon.net> <021501c43304$0e209a80$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4099A4A7.A31407CA@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <005c01c43354$738e1fa0$7cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, You ain't the only taxidermist at New Poetry by no long squat. Your among friends in that compartment e.g. taxonomy. CP Well, phooey, if I can't be the only one, I don't wanna be one! --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Thu May 6 09:28:56 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 09:28:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts & Sciences Message-ID: <1ca.2035e235.2dcb9798@aol.com> American Academy of Arts & Sciences, Class of 2004 Section 4 - Literature (Fiction, Poetry, Short Stories, Nonfiction, Playwriting, Screenwriting) Professor Ann Beattie University of Virginia Ms. Francine du Plessix Gray New York, New York Professor Sharon Olds New York University Professor Carl Phillips Washington University in St. Louis ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ thom tammaro moorhead, mn (not a new member) ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 6 09:51:22 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 08:51:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics In-Reply-To: <05d001c4334a$335e21a0$d3309b51@MyPC> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <6.0.3.0.2.20040505185718.01eba7d8@mail.ilstu.edu> <021a01c43304$6ae58910$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <05d001c4334a$335e21a0$d3309b51@MyPC> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506082752.01fcaa58@mail.ilstu.edu> Robin, I don't think RD is an extreme example, nor an exceptional one, nor I think one that happens at the limits of what passes in some communities for civility. This kind of violence has a structural use: it's pedagogic, as is a lot of violence. It teaches others how far you can stray. Pedagogic violence shows up strongly in communities that are invested in hiding or suppressing how taste and cultural capital are maintained. It is meant to stand as a line beyond which others are not allowed to cross. It happens on this list, happened on Buffalo Poetics, happens all over. So, though it's disgusting, it's not extreme. As a side note, Dillon lives in Texas, which has the most coercive state apparatus, the most state-sponsored violence, of all US states -- Texas is all about the maintenance of pedagogic violence. At 04:12 AM 5/6/2004, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > such as this of yours, which part of Richard's critique alluded to > >Nice to see, Bob, that at least someone other than me manages to refer to >Elemnope by his given-name. > >One of the dafter manifestations of the current worm-weather in cyberspace >that I've encountered is someone who huffed-off a list because of an >argument over Swift's "Tale of a Tub" -- is this a Renaissance text or part >of the long [sic] 18thC? > >Dog knows I'm as much up to a flame-war as anyone, but this seems to be >carrying things to an extreme. > >Are we all wilting violets or what? > >I was trained in the principle that a disagreement over the placement of a >comma in a Milton sonnet was enough to ruin a friendship, but heavens to >betsy, isn't this carrying things to an extreme? > >Dee2 > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 6 10:02:48 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 09:02:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506085346.01e5e060@mail.ilstu.edu> Part of the issue is "aortal brilliance" is better described as metalepsis, a class of metonymy, rather than up and up metaphor. Here's wikipedia's def of metalepsis: " 'Metalepsis' is a figure of speech in which one thing is referenced by a something else which is only remotely associated with it. Often the association works through a different figure of speech, or through a chain of cause-and-effect. Oftentimes metalepsis refers to the combination of several figures of speech into an altogether new one." >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Graham" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 11:05 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! > > >| A blurb found on Charlie Smith's new book, *Women in America*: >| >| "Smith writes with a scalding aortal brilliance that leaves the reader >drunk >| on dream." (New York Times Book Review) >| >| Aortal brilliance? Man, the last time I got drunk on aortal brilliance I >| had a hangover for weeks. . . . >| -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu May 6 11:33:34 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:33:34 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas A. Edison as poet References: Message-ID: <005301c4337f$7ebb3e00$c0737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> A beautiful poem, thank you, Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome By what means Redmond Barry acquired the style & title of Barry Lyndon Stanley Kubrick From: "Louie Crew" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 4:15 AM > Last month the NY TIMES gave favorable attention to the current issue > of JOURNAL OF NJ POETS (No. 41. 2004). The editor, Sandy Zulauf, > read several selections from the issue at a noon-time reading at NJ > Historical Society in Newark on April 21st. I particularly enjoyed one > of the found poems "by" Thomas A. Edison, prose set in the typography > of poems by a scholar Blaine McCormick researching Edison's papers, > with a fine ear for verbal magic. > > Lutibelle/Louie > > I Didn't Have Much Faith > > I didn't have much faith that it would work, > expecting that I might hear a word or so > that would give hope of a future for the idea. > > Kreuzi, > when he had nearly finished it, > asked what it was for. > > I told him > that I was going to record talking, > and then have the machine > talk back. > > He thought it absurd. > > However, > it was finished, > the foil put on; > I then shouted > Mary had a little lamb, > etc. > > I adjusted the reproducer > and the machine reproduced it perfectly. > > I was never so taken back in my life. > > Everybody was astonished. > > I was always afraid > of things that worked > the first time > > Thomas A. Edison > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu May 6 11:38:09 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 10:38:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nancy Willard's new collection IN THE SALT MARSH In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040505213325.01bd1ac8@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: on 5/5/04 9:39 PM, Richard Wilsnack at rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote: > At 07:40 AM 5/5/2004 -0500, Paul Lake wrote: > >> Ive always admired this poemand others like it that get hold of the world >> and all its mundane but oddly strange and beautiful objects. >> >> Paul > > To add to your collection, Paul: > > > What People Make > > They make wars, babies, sonnets, money, haste, > Fantastic visions, patent leather shoes, > Pledges to keep, paper towels to waste, > Long recipes for life and oyster stews, > Thick books contrived for everybody's taste, > Slim volumes only doting authors choose, > New glasses for the old when they're replaced, > And awkward pauses anyone can use. > For people stuck on sticking, they make paste; > For people stuck on answers, they make clues; > For people just plain stuck, or who are faced > With failure, they make big bottles of booze; > And for those seeking simply to amuse > Themselves a moment, people make kazoos. > > Thomas Carper > > > Richard W. Wilsnack > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Thanks for posting. I liked this, but not as much as Willard's hardware poem. Paul --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu May 6 12:41:44 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 11:41:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Q & A from Interview Message-ID: One last shameless plug for my interview in Perihelion with Joan Houlihan. For the whole thing, here's the link. (There's also an interesting roundtable discussion on postmodern and avant-garde poetry under "Discussion" on the website's homepage.) http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/p-profile13.htm * Q: Here?s a passage from Stephen Burt?s article on elliptical poetry (he coined the term): "Elliptical Poets are always hinting, punning or swerving away from a never-quite-unfolded backstory; they are easier to process in parts than in wholes. Elliptics seek the authority of the rebellious; they want to challenge their readers, violate decorum, surprise or explode assumptions about what belongs in a poem, or what matters in life, and to do so while meeting traditional lyric goals. Their favorite attitudes are desperately extravagant, or tough-guy terse, or defiantly childish: they don't believe in, or seek, a judicious tone. Elliptical poets like insistent, bravura forms, and forms with repetends - sestinas, pantoums, or fantasias on single words, like Liam Rector's 'Saxophone': You and I, our money. Their money. Our pleasure and fist full of money. Laughter over money, serious money, over money. Too much, too little, fluid money. The saxophone, color of wheat, purchased through Hock Shop money, saxophone splitting the night, our air, blowing money." Is Burt talking about form in the same way you understand it? A: Much of what you?ve quoted above from Burt?s essay "Shearing Away" is simply a list of Romantic and Modernist techniques presented in more contemporary, hip language. A line like ?Elliptics seek the authority of the rebellious,? for instance, reflects the now long-held Romantic notion that there is some special moral authority conferred by rebellion, even rebellion for its own sake. The Romantics, however, were actually rebelling against something. Like the children of the Enlightenment that they were, they were rebelling against monarchy and the established churches of their countries. They wanted to start real revolutions, like the Americans and French, to create democratic governments. Byron died leading a rebellion in Greece against the Turkish occupation of the home of Western democracy. The Elliptical poets, by contrast, sound like poseurs who seek the ?authority of the rebellious? (a rather curious locution) because it?s, well, cool?as if moral and artistic authority were automatically conferred by the act of rebellion. It?s an adolescent pose, which is fine if you?re an adolescent, but if not, not. The most interesting and illuminating part of Burt?s quote is the line about how Elliptical poets ?are always hinting, punning, or swerving away from a never-quite-unfolded backstory.? This, too, is a technique that goes back to early Modernism. Yvor Winters even invented a pejorative term to describe T. S. Eliot?s use of ?a never-quite-unfolded backstory? hovering behind the arras in lines like these from ?Gerontion?: In depraved May, dogwood and chestnut, flowering Judas, To be eaten, to be divided, to be drunk Among whispers; by Mr. Silvero With caressing hands, at Limoges Who walked all night in the next room; By Hakagawa, bowing among the Titians; By Madam de Tornquist, in the dark room Shifting the candles; Fraulein von Kulp Who turned in the hall . . . Winters called this technique of hinting at a non-existent backstory with narrative fragments peopled by characters only sketchily-drawn or merely named ?Pseudo-reference.? There IS no back- story, Winters argued. Who is this Mr. Silvero? who is Hakagawa? and why is he bowing among the Titians? The names and barely-limned scenes merely tease the reader with the idea that there?s a more fully developed narrative behind them when in fact there is no such thing. Other Ellipticist techniques Burt describes--like violating decorum and mixing high and low diction--have been done to death by Modernists and later postmodern poets such as those of the New York School. Later in his essay Burt adds that Elliptical poets ?create inversions, homages, takeoffs on old or ?classic? poets.? This again goes back to collage in the works of visual artists like Robert Rauschenberg, a contemporary of the New York school poets, who mixed images from pop and high culture. The sudden shifts in tone Burt describes are equally present in poems by Koch and Ashbery. Like retelling the same joke, the technique doesn?t get better with repeated use. I find myself much more in accord with Burt when, in his interview with you, he says that the question he asks himself when confronted with a seemingly incoherent poem is ?how much narrative or argumentative work . . . am I willing to perform in order to make some lines which sound good seem to fit together?? Like Burt, I don?t think the writer has the right to ask too much of me, to force me to do the poet?s work for her. And like Burt, I?m willing to pay more attention to a poem if, as he says, the poem sounds good, if its language is inviting and gives me pleasure. Unfortunately, the Elliptical poets like Forrest Gander, Mark Levine, Jorie Graham, and others Burt names, generally fall flat, for me, for lack of this type of verbal music. Unmetered and generally scanty in their use of sonic devices like rhyme, assonance, and alliteration; often asyntactic, fragmentary, and choppy, the poems simply don?t engage my ear or compel me to explore them more deeply. Reading an Elliptical poem provides an experience similar to channel-surfing, where a scene from a classic movie is suddenly juxtaposed to a cartoon, then a crime drama, a deodorant commercial, a rap video, a sixties sitcom. ?That?s exactly right,? the argument runs; ?that?s simply postmodern reality, accurately rendered.? Well, in fact, it?s not: it?s only the reality of channel-surfing rendered. When we as living human animals make love, engage in conversation with friends, talk to our doctor, work at our job, watch our children compete in a race, we move to completely different rhythms, with real narrative flow and emotional peaks and valleys, beginnings and endings, with real consequences, as when your doctor tells you that you have a terrible disease or a lover tells you he or she still loves you at the end of a difficult period. As Burt himself points out, good lyrics often contain argument and narrative, to give them structure. Both devices are ways of organizing time and focusing the reader?s attention. The problem with elliptical poetry, as (for me, at least) with most so-called language poetry, is that the writers almost entirely eschew narrative and argument, leaving the reader awash in a sea of seemingly unrelated?or tenuously related--images and fragments. The human attention span is limited; it doesn?t have an infinite capacity for focusing on a hundred different seemingly unrelated things. But if you link images and ideas in a narrative or argument, a reader can flow with the rhythm of the story or argument and organize the details in her mind. The great Modernists like Eliot, Joyce, and Pound were masters of the conventions of their media like rhythm and narrative. Look at the verbal music in the opening of Ulysses or the metrical parts of The Waste Land. On top of that, the Modernists also employed what Eliot called ?the mythical method.? Joyce in Ulysses not only employed elements of conventional fictional narrative in his Dublin story but overlaid that on top of another richer, more mythical narrative, The Odyssey. Eliot and Pound employed similar myths to hold together their fragmentary epics The Waste Land and The Cantos (though in Pound?s case, the central myth kept shifting). By contrast, the fragmentary and incomplete ?backstory? of an Elliptical poem is generally too tenuous and broken a thing on which to hang a poem or maintain a reader?s attention. Much of the poetry of the great Modernists remains wonderful to read because of its beautiful music and large, mythic movements. By contrast, most postmodern poetry seems to be little more than infinitely-reproducible nonsense once you?ve learned a few easy tricks. Pound famously advised that poetry should be at least as well written as good prose. And much of what goes under the name of various postmodern schools of poetry is abysmal judged by the standards of good prose. The surface playfulness and random mechanical shifts can?t provide the same level of attention-fixing or sheer aural pleasure as a more coherent poem using traditional sound devices. It has often been observed that poetry tends to go wrong when it strays too far from conversation and song. If someone called you up and spoke elliptical poetry to you for a while over the phone, you?d soon grow weary and hang up. If, after several such calls, your Caller ID identified the caller as an acquaintance known to babble elliptically, you?d soon stop answering. I wouldn?t pin my literary reputation in posterity on a style of writing that makes people?s eyes glaze over at the mention of my name. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 6 14:24:31 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:24:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! Message-ID: <143.285a92a6.2dcbdcdf@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/04 12:05:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > "Smith writes with a scalding aortal brilliance that leaves the reader drunk > on dream." (New York Times Book Review) > > Aortal brilliance? Man, the last time I got drunk on aortal brilliance I > had a hangover for weeks. . . . > That's the silliest blurb I've seen in a quite while (and that's saying something since most blurbs are)...Is that supposed to mean the poem makes one's blood boil and spew out? Is this poetry's own Ebola virus? Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 6 17:44:26 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:44:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis Message-ID: In a message dated 5/5/04 6:00:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > The problem with Dennis is not his poetry, which isn't worse than most Knopf/ > New Yorker/APR/Poetry/Iowa poetry, but that he thinks--like too many others > including what I've been calling burstnorm poets but not me despit the way I' > m misrepresented--that his kind of poetry is the only good or genuine kind > there is. Bob, if you cannot discriminate kinds of poetry better than this, then perhaps you should give up taxonomy altogether. Finnegan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu May 6 18:51:00 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:51:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040506085346.01e5e060@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <409AC154.336C7417@earthlink.net> Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > Part of the issue is "aortal brilliance" is better described as > metalepsis, a class of metonymy, rather than up and up metaphor. > > Here's wikipedia's def of metalepsis: " > 'Metalepsis' is a figure of speech in which one thing is referenced by > a something else which is only remotely associated with it. Often the > association works through a different figure of speech, or through a > chain of cause-and-effect. Oftentimes metalepsis refers to the > combination of several figures of speech into an altogether new one." As in: Fate filled my Scrabble rack with seven wordless tiles: m,g,l,p,q,c,d! Rumsfeld talks. ??? - Jim, in summer mode From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 6 15:22:46 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:22:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040505164609.038a0b88@mail.ilstu.edu> <01a601c432f8$06fabb70$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <6.0.3.0.2.20040505185718.01eba7d8@mail.ilstu.edu> <021a01c43304$6ae58910$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <05d001c4334a$335e21a0$d3309b51@MyPC> <6.0.3.0.2.20040506082752.01fcaa58@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <003301c4339f$82e1cfb0$f5032cd9@MyPC> Gabe: > Robin, I don't think RD is an extreme example, See, you're doing it too!! It's not that difficult to say -- *R *i *c *hard Dillon. Comes to censorship, I got warned-off trying to publish Richard via the Phantom Rooster Press. I think he's a bloody good pote, and as a people-person widely-read with a sense of humour. I suppose it a bit turns on politics -- he and I are so off each other's radar, that it's difficult to argue this, so we don't. > As a side note, Dillon lives in Texas, No, he don't, though he's a spiritual Texan. >which > has the most coercive state apparatus, the most state-sponsored violence, > of all US states -- Texas is all about the maintenance of pedagogic violence. ... add to which it also tops the record for State-sponsored killing -- aka the Death Penalty. R. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 6 16:07:04 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:07:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Block that Metaphor! References: <143.285a92a6.2dcbdcdf@aol.com> Message-ID: Smith writes in a viral vernacular peculiar to retroviral afterburning anti-burstnorm artists. His incendiary lines superheat the blood into a leukemic fever, reminding one of Leopold Bloom's sizzling kidneys, their tiny sheep's nephrons' arborealizing arterioles writhing in a conflagration of rheumatoid arteritis like Dolly re-cloned with a vengeance. This book is a must buy, outdoes Dickey's "Sheep Boy." Handle only with asbestos gloves. "Their soft eyes bloviating." --Sterling Green | > | > "Smith writes with a scalding aortal brilliance that leaves the reader | drunk | > on dream." (New York Times Book Review) | > | > Aortal brilliance? Man, the last time I got drunk on aortal brilliance I | > had a hangover for weeks. . . . | > | That's the silliest blurb I've seen in a quite while (and that's saying | something since most blurbs are)...Is that supposed to mean | the poem makes one's blood boil and spew out? Is this poetry's own | Ebola virus? | Finnegan From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 6 19:59:30 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 19:59:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis References: Message-ID: <017701c433c6$2dabee00$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > The problem with Dennis is not his poetry, which isn't worse than most > Knopf/ > > New Yorker/APR/Poetry/Iowa poetry, but that he thinks--like too many others > > including what I've been calling burstnorm poets but not me despite the way I'm misrepresented--that his kind of poetry is the only good or genuine kind > > there is. > Bob, if you cannot discriminate kinds of poetry better than this, > then perhaps you should give up taxonomy altogether. > Finnegan James, if you can't tell the difference between taxonomy and evaluation any better than this, you should perhaps give up commenting altogether. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 6 20:11:15 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:11:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Latest Neology--Get Your Hilarious Jokes Ready References: Message-ID: <019101c433c7$d1986330$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Plainlay for free verse poem. From whence, "Iowa Plainlay," for "most widely-used free verse poem" whose characteristics have been widely listed, recently (partially) by me, but I hope to add to my list. I decided to keep "Iowa" on the grounds that "workshop" was mainly what made the term "Iowa Workshop Poem" negative, and because whatever term is used will be used derogatorily by those against the kind of poem it represents. Plus, "Iowa" nicely suggests "central American." That Iowa University (right?) was a main source of its popularization is a bonus. I remain open to corections, improvements. I will ignore the jokes. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 6 20:42:23 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:42:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis Message-ID: <140.28ce38ec.2dcc356f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2004 8:00:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > you should perhaps give up commenting altogether. you first & fat chance. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Thu May 6 20:44:18 2004 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 20:44:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Latest Neology--Get Your Hilarious Jokes Ready References: <019101c433c7$d1986330$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <011801c433cc$6de9a470$6d94c044@MULDER> Plainly. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] My Latest Neology--Get Your Hilarious Jokes Ready Plainlay for free verse poem. From whence, "Iowa Plainlay," for "most widely-used free verse poem" whose characteristics have been widely listed, recently (partially) by me, but I hope to add to my list. I decided to keep "Iowa" on the grounds that "workshop" was mainly what made the term "Iowa Workshop Poem" negative, and because whatever term is used will be used derogatorily by those against the kind of poem it represents. Plus, "Iowa" nicely suggests "central American." That Iowa University (right?) was a main source of its popularization is a bonus. I remain open to corections, improvements. I will ignore the jokes. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu May 6 20:59:25 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 19:59:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scalding Aortal Brilliance Message-ID: Are you curious about what aortal brilliance actually looks like? Or just how it scalds? Just in case you are, here's a sample poem from Charlie Smith's new book, subject of that unfortunate blurb. See if it doesn't get you drunk on dream. I Mean Everything I Say A boy's first fistfight, he's crying all the way through it, stupendously alive, and the girl raging in her room against the elite of the earth, it's so unconventional, emotion in the chest, the emptiness after passion, hope like money in a jar, it's all feeling, expansiveness unwasted & alive, no one completely understands this, like rain on a clear day, or amplitude, the unrestricted dispensations, someone offering a seat, someone hitting wildly back, the ugly judgment in the plutocrats' eyes, all from the heart, the jostling that begins low in the soul, some day in August when the lover to come, disguised as someone who hates you, wheels around the corner adjusting her hat, and that brisk business in the big oaks, wind conveying some new way of life ? or nothing important ? across town, it touches you. Charlie Smith. *Women of America*. W. W. Norton & Company. --------------------- And by the way, wouldn't Scalding Aortal Brilliance make a pretty good name for a rock band? The blurb again, in case you missed it-- "Smith writes with a scalding aortal brilliance that leaves the reader drunk on dream." (New York Times Book Review) ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From cmurray at uta.edu Thu May 6 21:19:00 2004 From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:19:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics Message-ID: Hello, Robin, Gabe, and All-- Though new to posting on this list, so not I don't know yet where people on the list are coming from (as it were), I'll anyway interrupt once again to note that to live in Texas is not the same as condoning or agreeing in any way with its manifold ideological state apparatus or its state sanctioned violences, or the general agreement in Texas that top-down punitive attitudes & measures are the best way to shape a civil populace (road signs: "Don't Mess with Texas" vs New Mexico's: "Please don't litter our highways"). But to live in Texas and to disagree with these things in small or large, as a lot of folks do, simply means that ones vote does not ever count. As for discussion of any such issues, for the most part a majority of the people here don't want to listen to what someone who disagrees has to say. I guess that much about people living in Texas is already clear to everyone here. Best Wishes, Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/6/2004 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] violence in poetics Gabe: > Robin, I don't think RD is an extreme example, See, you're doing it too!! It's not that difficult to say -- *R *i *c *hard Dillon. Comes to censorship, I got warned-off trying to publish Richard via the Phantom Rooster Press. I think he's a bloody good pote, and as a people-person widely-read with a sense of humour. I suppose it a bit turns on politics -- he and I are so off each other's radar, that it's difficult to argue this, so we don't. > As a side note, Dillon lives in Texas, No, he don't, though he's a spiritual Texan. >which > has the most coercive state apparatus, the most state-sponsored violence, > of all US states -- Texas is all about the maintenance of pedagogic violence. ... add to which it also tops the record for State-sponsored killing -- aka the Death Penalty. R. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 6 21:38:25 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 21:38:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wall Streetz Poet Maximus: Felix Dennis References: <140.28ce38ec.2dcc356f@aol.com> Message-ID: <01ed01c433d3$ff2dbc80$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 5/6/2004 8:00:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: you should perhaps give up commenting altogether. you first & fat chance. Finnegan That's for sure. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 6 21:39:34 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 21:39:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Latest Neology--Get Your Hilarious Jokes Ready References: <019101c433c7$d1986330$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <011801c433cc$6de9a470$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <01f901c433d4$286d46b0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Plainly. Gert woulda loved it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] My Latest Neology--Get Your Hilarious Jokes Ready Plainlay for free verse poem. From whence, "Iowa Plainlay," for "most widely-used free verse poem" whose characteristics have been widely listed, recently (partially) by me, but I hope to add to my list. I decided to keep "Iowa" on the grounds that "workshop" was mainly what made the term "Iowa Workshop Poem" negative, and because whatever term is used will be used derogatorily by those against the kind of poem it represents. Plus, "Iowa" nicely suggests "central American." That Iowa University (right?) was a main source of its popularization is a bonus. I remain open to corRections, improvements. I will ignore the jokes. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 6 21:58:22 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 21:58:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry = push pin Message-ID: <1e5.1f8f202d.2dcc473e@aol.com> Jeremy Bentham The Rationale of Reward The utility of all these arts and sciences,--I speak both of those of amusement and curiosity,-the value which they possess, is exactly in proportion to the pleasure they yield. Every other species of preeminence which may be attempted to be established among them is altogether fanciful. Prejudice apart, the game of push-pin is of equal value with the arts and sciences of music and poetry. If the game of push-pin furnish more pleasure, it is more valuable than either. Everybody can play at push-pin: poetry and music are relished only by a few. The game of push-pin is always innocent: it were well could the same be always asserted of poetry. Indeed, between poetry and truth there is natural opposition: false morals and fictitious nature. The poet always stands in need of something false. When he pretends to lay has foundations in truth, the ornaments of his superstructure are fictions; his business consist in stimulating our passions, and exciting our prejudices. Truth, exactitude of every kind is fatal to poetry. The poet must see everything through coloured media, and strive to make every one else do the same. It is true, there have been noble spirits, to whom poetry and philosophy have been equally indebted; but these exceptions do not counteract the mischiefs which have resulted from this magic art. If poetry and music deserve to he preferred before a game of push-pin, it must be because they are calculated to gratify those individuals who are most difficult to be pleased. ----- LOVE'S PLAY AT PUSH-PIN. by Robert Herrick LOVE and myself, believe me, on a day At childish push-pin, for our sport, did play ; I put, he pushed, and, heedless of my skin, Love pricked my finger with a golden pin ; Since which it festers so that I can prove 'Twas but a trick to poison me with love : Little the wound was, greater was the smart, The finger bled, but burnt was all my heart. -- Push-pin, a game in which pins are pushed with an endeavour to cross them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Thu May 6 22:23:27 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:23:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry = push pin In-Reply-To: <1e5.1f8f202d.2dcc473e@aol.com> Message-ID: <860B8B66-9FCD-11D8-83D5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:58 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > If poetry and music deserve to he preferred before a game of push-pin, > it must be because they are calculated to gratify those individuals > who are most difficult to be pleased. Even poor Bentham arrives at something eventually. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan From bardo at optonline.net Thu May 6 22:28:28 2004 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 22:28:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry = push pin References: <860B8B66-9FCD-11D8-83D5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <014301c433da$fb20e2a0$6d94c044@MULDER> L'arriviste: http://cepa.newschool.edu/~het/profiles/image/benthead.jpg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry = push pin > On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:58 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > If poetry and music deserve to he preferred before a game of push-pin, > > it must be because they are calculated to gratify those individuals > > who are most difficult to be pleased. > > Even poor Bentham arrives at something eventually. > > Wendy > > > > > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > ---------------------------- > How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather > followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in > pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? > -Tung-shan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 7 01:38:45 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:38:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scalding Aortal Brilliance References: Message-ID: <003701c433f5$915ad630$d31c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> The much I can like the poem, and thank you for sending it (some passages are definitely beautiful - those two screams at the beginning filling the beings with life and the emptiness/hope of/in a jar with money), the little I can accept that scalding aortal B. not even for a rock band, sorry. Appreciate your attempt. Anny From: "David Graham" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 2:59 AM > Are you curious about what aortal brilliance actually looks like? Or just > how it scalds? > > Just in case you are, here's a sample poem from Charlie Smith's new book, > subject of that unfortunate blurb. See if it doesn't get you drunk on > dream. > > > > I Mean Everything I Say > > > A boy's first fistfight, he's crying > all the way through it, stupendously alive, > and the girl raging in her room against the elite of the earth, > it's so unconventional, emotion in the chest, > the emptiness after passion, hope like money in a jar, > it's all feeling, expansiveness unwasted & alive, no one > completely understands this, like rain on a clear day, > or amplitude, the unrestricted dispensations, > someone offering a seat, someone hitting wildly back, > the ugly judgment in the plutocrats' eyes, > all from the heart, the jostling > that begins low in the soul, some day in August > when the lover to come, disguised as someone who hates you, > wheels around the corner adjusting her hat, > and that brisk business in the big oaks, wind > conveying some new way of life < or nothing important < > across town, it touches you. > > > Charlie Smith. *Women of America*. W. W. Norton & Company. > --------------------- > > And by the way, wouldn't Scalding Aortal Brilliance make a pretty good name > for a rock band? > > The blurb again, in case you missed it-- > > "Smith writes with a scalding aortal brilliance that leaves the reader drunk > on dream." (New York Times Book Review) > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 7 12:05:41 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 11:05:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaspar alert Message-ID: A poem from Frank X. Gaspar's new book featured on Poetry Daily today: http://www.poems.com/today_lo.htm ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Fri May 7 15:41:54 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:41:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry = push pin References: <1e5.1f8f202d.2dcc473e@aol.com> Message-ID: Now this utilitarian who measures art by pleasure of an equal and measurable kind, friend of Plato and enemy of fancy, know that despite his adherence to the rational, his will for the foundation he left behind insisted his skeleton be seated at all future board meetings. Think only poets seek immortality? --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:58 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry = push pin Jeremy Bentham The Rationale of Reward The utility of all these arts and sciences,--I speak both of those of amusement and curiosity,-the value which they possess, is exactly in proportion to the pleasure they yield. Every other species of preeminence which may be attempted to be established among them is altogether fanciful. Prejudice apart, the game of push-pin is of equal value with the arts and sciences of music and poetry. If the game of push-pin furnish more pleasure, it is more valuable than either. Everybody can play at push-pin: poetry and music are relished only by a few. The game of push-pin is always innocent: it were well could the same be always asserted of poetry. Indeed, between poetry and truth there is natural opposition: false morals and fictitious nature. The poet always stands in need of something false. When he pretends to lay has foundations in truth, the ornaments of his superstructure are fictions; his business consist in stimulating our passions, and exciting our prejudices. Truth, exactitude of every kind is fatal to poetry. The poet must see everything through coloured media, and strive to make every one else do the same. It is true, there have been noble spirits, to whom poetry and philosophy have been equally indebted; but these exceptions do not counteract the mischiefs which have resulted from this magic art. If poetry and music deserve to he preferred before a game of push-pin, it must be because they are calculated to gratify those individuals who are most difficult to be pleased. ----- LOVE'S PLAY AT PUSH-PIN. by Robert Herrick LOVE and myself, believe me, on a day At childish push-pin, for our sport, did play ; I put, he pushed, and, heedless of my skin, Love pricked my finger with a golden pin ; Since which it festers so that I can prove 'Twas but a trick to poison me with love : Little the wound was, greater was the smart, The finger bled, but burnt was all my heart. -- Push-pin, a game in which pins are pushed with an endeavour to cross them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 7 20:54:00 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:54:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art Message-ID: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7143-2004May6.html Helen Vendler at last night's 33rd annual Jefferson Lecture "I want to propose that the humanities should take, as their central objects of study, not the historical record or the works of philosophers, but the products of aesthetic endeavor," she said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 08:09:47 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:09:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Helen Vendler at last night's 33rd annual Jefferson Lecture "I want to propose that the humanities should take, as their central objects of study, not the historical record or the works of philosophers, but the products of aesthetic endeavor," she said. "Which means no poetry using techniques not in wide-spread use by 1950," she added, under her breath. (Of course, I totally agree with what she was quoted as saying, although what "the humanities" take as "their central objects of study" is of little importance compared with what intelligent commentators on the arts do. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bentley at midcoast.com Sat May 8 08:35:01 2004 From: bentley at midcoast.com (Bentley) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:35:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> As someone who did her graduate work in philosophy, I'm kind of offended at this quote. It also seems like a false dicotomy to me. Why can't the humanities study the products of aesthetic endeavor AND history AND philososphy? My incomplete dissertation is on the application of the history of philosophy of aesthetics applied to contemporary problems,such as prejudice. Yet I also write poetry. Helen Vendler's quote here is kind of like saying that the purpose of the sciences should be to study physics instead of biology, chemistry, or geology. (Feeling a little sensitive this Saturday morning.) Bentley ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art Helen Vendler at last night's 33rd annual Jefferson Lecture "I want to propose that the humanities should take, as their central objects of study, not the historical record or the works of philosophers, but the products of aesthetic endeavor," she said. "Which means no poetry using techniques not in wide-spread use by 1950," she added, under her breath. (Of course, I totally agree with what she was quoted as saying, although what "the humanities" take as "their central objects of study" is of little importance compared with what intelligent commentators on the arts do. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 08:55:08 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:55:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> Message-ID: <010901c434fb$b2fe1c50$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> As someone who did her graduate work in philosophy, I'm kind of offended at this quote. It also seems like a false dicotomy to me. Why can't the humanities study the products of aesthetic endeavor AND history AND philososphy? My incomplete dissertation is on the application of the history of philosophy of aesthetics applied to contemporary problems,such as prejudice. Yet I also write poetry. Helen Vendler's quote here is kind of like saying that the purpose of the sciences should be to study physics instead of biology, chemistry, or geology. (Feeling a little sensitive this Saturday morning.) Bentley Probably too sensitive. She proposed that "products of aesthetic endeavor" by taken as the humanities' central, not only, objects of study. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 08:38:15 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 08:38:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> Message-ID: <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> I wouldn't put too much stock in Vendler's remarks. She's cribbing from other sources while at the same time attempting to counter their recent successes. Realizing the subservient role that poetry places iteself in vis a vis the sciences, history, philosophy et al when the mode of expression is simply metaphor habituated to the prevailing scientific positivism, Vendler has despaired of that aesthetic canard most exemplified in aspect by Jorie Graham. However, certain advocates of a head-on epistemological critique of the sciences have emerged after decades of study and poetic construction in the High Modernist Epic mode. This technique, aside from its scholarly requirements, has proven a worthy adversary and interface to scientific discourse. On the micro-level, the poetic distinctions between the poetry Vendler has championed compared to say The Cantos, Duncan's Work in Progress, Zuk.'s 'A', Joyce, Olson, Tolson etc. become 'graphically' obvious in hypertext. When the subject matter of a High Modernist text runs counter to and is critical of current scientific discourse, the hypertext method dissolves the so called 'obscurity' of these texts while providing a hermeneutic hypertree. In other words, after Olson, the High Modernist Epic enters the 'field' of technological discourse IN TACT. Now, those who want to see what the High Modernist has to say can do so with far less effort and do so even if the work is not strictly hypertext-ed. As a result of some super-heated exchanges on several sites a few years ago, Vendler in a rather unsavory way was made aware of this further ascendancy of High Modernist poetic principles. Apparently, she has wisely given up trying to reconcile HM with her chosen poetic path and pathmakers. CP Bentley wrote: > As someone who did her graduate work in philosophy, I'm > kind of offended at this quote. It also seems like a > false dicotomy to me. Why can't the humanities study the > products of aesthetic endeavor AND history AND > philososphy? My incomplete dissertation is on the > application of the history of philosophy of aesthetics > applied to contemporary problems,such as prejudice. Yet I > also write poetry. Helen Vendler's quote here is kind of > like saying that the purpose of the sciences should be to > study physics instead of biology, chemistry, or > geology. (Feeling a little sensitive this Saturday > morning.) Bentley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:09 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts > With Art > Helen Vendler at last night's 33rd annual > Jefferson Lecture > > "I want to propose that the humanities should > take, as their central objects of study, not the > historical record or the works of philosophers, > but the products of aesthetic endeavor," she > said. "Which means no poetry using techniques > not in wide-spread use by 1950," she added, > under her breath. (Of course, I totally agree > with what she was quoted as saying, although > what "the humanities" take as "their central > objects of study" is of little importance > compared with what intelligent commentators on > the arts do. --Bob G. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 09:17:55 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 09:17:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <010901c434fb$b2fe1c50$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <011d01c434fe$e17d7690$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> As someone who did her graduate work in philosophy, I'm kind of offended at this quote. It also seems like a false dicotomy to me. Why can't the humanities study the products of aesthetic endeavor AND history AND philososphy? My incomplete dissertation is on the application of the history of philosophy of aesthetics applied to contemporary problems,such as prejudice. Yet I also write poetry. Helen Vendler's quote here is kind of like saying that the purpose of the sciences should be to study physics instead of biology, chemistry, or geology. (Feeling a little sensitive this Saturday morning.) Bentley Probably too sensitive. She proposed that "products of aesthetic endeavor" by taken as the humanities' central, not only, objects of study. I would add that I suspect that by "humanities" she meant "those people in the humanities who claim to be studying 'art' but consider the aesthetic aspects or art secondary to its political, economic, sociological or other extra-aesthetic features." --Bob G. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat May 8 11:03:35 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:03:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mothers' Day, Opposition to War, and American Poetry Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040508100330.01f40b78@mail.ilstu.edu> I first became interested in Julie Ward Howe last March when researching 19th Century anti-war poetry in the Rockefeller Library at Brown University. Tomorrow, Mothers' Day, was more or less founded by Julia Ward Howe (she of the bizarre battle hymn) with a proclamation to women in 1870 that arose out of disgust at the slaughters of the American Civil War -- good example of what Lynn Worsham, in her essay "Going Postal: Pedagogic Violence and the Schooling of Emotion," calls, following Jon Schiller, "psychic matriarchy," one engaged in a socially necessary emotional labor. In short, Mother's Day has been re-coded from an anti-war commemorative and a call to global political mobilization -- and sentimentalized and domesticated it into a single day in which a kind of emotional payment is rendered to the individual Mom: a day of emotional recompense for affective services rendered. Or at least that's the way it seems to be coded in the communities with which I'm familiar. Even the debate about where to place the possessive apostrophe is instructive: is this day about the apoliticized individual mother or about the empowered collective of mothers?, which collective Philip Wylie, in Generation of Vipers, dismissively calls "Multimomism." So, I wanted to quote Howe's initial proclamation. I only saw a facsimile of the original broadside once and my memory's hazy and beyond that I haven't looked at anything but electronic versions of it, so I can't figure out how to resolve the variation in the 22nd word, which is sometimes rendered "fears" and sometimes "tears." "Arise, then, women of this day! Arise all women who have hearts, whether our baptism be that of water or of tears! Say firmly: 'We will not have great questions decided by irrelevant agencies. Our husbands shall not come to us, reeking with carnage, for caresses and applause. Our sons shall not be taken from us to unlearn all that we have been able to teach them of charity, mercy and patience. We women of one country will be too tender of those of another country to allow our sons to be trained to injure theirs. From the bosom of the devastated earth a voice goes up with our own. It says 'Disarm, Disarm! The sword of murder is not the balance of justice.' Blood does not wipe our dishonor nor violence indicate possession. As men have often forsaken the plow and the anvil at the summons of war, let women now leave all that may be left of home for a great and earnest day of counsel. Let them meet first, as women, to bewail and commemorate the dead. Let them then solemnly take counsel with each other as to the means whereby the great human family can live in peace, each bearing after their own time the sacred impress, not of Caesar, but of God. In the name of womanhood and of humanity, I earnestly ask that a general congress of women without limit of nationality may be appointed and held at some place deemed most convenient and at the earliest period consistent with its objects, to promote the alliance of the different nationalities, the amicable settlement of international questions, the great and general interests of peace." __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Sat May 8 11:20:39 2004 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:20:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A World That Starts With Art In-Reply-To: <200405081254.i48Cs2XE027354@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: CP, Do you know of hypertext versions of these works? If so, I'd be interested in sources. Thanks. > From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art > However, certain advocates of a head-on epistemological > critique of the sciences have emerged after decades of study > and poetic construction in the High Modernist Epic mode. > This technique, aside from its scholarly requirements, has > proven a worthy adversary and interface to scientific > discourse. On the micro-level, the poetic distinctions > between the poetry Vendler has championed compared to say > The Cantos, Duncan's Work in Progress, Zuk.'s 'A', Joyce, > Olson, Tolson etc. become 'graphically' obvious in > hypertext. When the subject matter of a High Modernist text > runs counter to and is critical of current scientific > discourse, the hypertext method dissolves the so called > 'obscurity' of these texts while providing a hermeneutic > hypertree. In other words, after Olson, the High Modernist > Epic enters the 'field' of technological discourse IN TACT. > Now, those who want to see what the High Modernist has to > say can do so with far less effort and do so even if the > work is not strictly hypertext-ed. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 8 11:30:38 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:30:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art In-Reply-To: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> Message-ID: on 5/7/04 7:54 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7143-2004May6.html Helen Vendler at last night's 33rd annual Jefferson Lecture "I want to propose that the humanities should take, as their central objects of study, not the historical record or the works of philosophers, but the products of aesthetic endeavor," she said. ======================================= A bit more from the article on Vendler, which is well worth reading. I'd like to see the full text of her speech, myself. I like her remark that "the arts exist to relocate us in the body. . . . They situate us on the Earth." ------------------- Talking up the arts isn't radical; talking up the arts as more fundamental to life than history is. That this seems utopian, if not downright silly to most people, is based on a prejudice against which Vendler has struggled with her life's work. Her analysis of poetry, methodical, conservative and brilliant, has yielded an argument with the notion that art is somehow less real and less substantial than the material things of the world. In her little book on Seamus Heaney, Vendler quotes the Irish poet getting to the heart of this problem: "In one sense the efficacy of poetry is nil -- no lyric has ever stopped a tank." But in her speech last night, Vendler groped at a response. "The arts exist to relocate us in the body," she said. "They situate us on the Earth." Far from being unreal, a poem is part of our physical world, sitting on a page, agitating the air with sound waves and, ultimately, animating us right down to our heartbeat and glands. If it's real, then it can effect change in what we so casually call "the real world." Vendler is not a political critic, and there was nothing overtly political in her speech. But the idea that art is primary to history, to politics, to philosophy, is a political statement -- an argument with the status quo of our world. Her speech was animated by a poetic image -- that our world is wrapped in a web of our creative and intellectual endeavor -- that led to an essentially political question. "If there did not exist, floating over us, all the symbolic representations that art and music [and literature] have invented, and all the interpretations and explanations of them that scholarly effort has produced, what sort of people would we be?" asked Vendler. -------------------- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7143-2004May6.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 11:32:47 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 11:32:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A World That Starts With Art References: Message-ID: <409CFD9F.80E86864@ix.netcom.com> Dear Crisman Cooley, Its more of a crusade at this point but there are hypertexts of some of Pound's Cantos e.g. http://www.uncg.edu/eng/pound/canto.htm I believe I've stumbled upon some Joyce. T.S. Eliot at http://members1.chello.nl/~a.vanarum8/EliotProject/ but NOT the real deal. Standard annotations. Just type in the poet and hypertext. Though now there is not much. No incentive or more accurately self-aggrandizement. For example, the langpos jumped on the bandwagon like they do with so much else, but when you start hypotexting langpo poems it naturally has no hermeneutic value except in the hypertexter's imagination which they will say is the point. The lang poems manifest their irrelevance in a very extreme way. Likewise with, say, Knopf's contemporary list. Its useless to look for a vertical point within the poems vocabulary. The most often used word, 'I', is so ubiquitous as to challenge the irrelavence(sic?) of langpo--so the argument that the reader brings his own cultural baggage read biases gains efficacy and keeps that product propped up by the dominant class. On the hand, the lie about the slack mish-mosh approach to the Cantos or 'A' gets shot right in the ass when the High Modernist Epic is brought into the hypertext. I'm writing an essay for the next issue of our mag, FlashPoint. http://www.flashpointmag.com/ It will be a short special, devoted (mostly) to Joyce and Zukofsky(100 anniversary of his birth) we hope to have ready by Bloomsday. CP Crisman Cooley wrote: > CP, Do you know of hypertext versions of these works? If so, I'd be > interested in sources. Thanks. > > > From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art > > > However, certain advocates of a head-on epistemological > > critique of the sciences have emerged after decades of study > > and poetic construction in the High Modernist Epic mode. > > This technique, aside from its scholarly requirements, has > > proven a worthy adversary and interface to scientific > > discourse. On the micro-level, the poetic distinctions > > between the poetry Vendler has championed compared to say > > The Cantos, Duncan's Work in Progress, Zuk.'s 'A', Joyce, > > Olson, Tolson etc. become 'graphically' obvious in > > hypertext. When the subject matter of a High Modernist text > > runs counter to and is critical of current scientific > > discourse, the hypertext method dissolves the so called > > 'obscurity' of these texts while providing a hermeneutic > > hypertree. In other words, after Olson, the High Modernist > > Epic enters the 'field' of technological discourse IN TACT. > > Now, those who want to see what the High Modernist has to > > say can do so with far less effort and do so even if the > > work is not strictly hypertext-ed. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 11:38:28 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 11:38:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A World That Starts With Art References: <409CFD9F.80E86864@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <409CFEF4.D54DD5D3@ix.netcom.com> Should read "hypertextee's language". "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > Dear Crisman Cooley, > > Its more of a crusade at this point but there are hypertexts of some of > Pound's Cantos e.g. > > http://www.uncg.edu/eng/pound/canto.htm > > I believe I've stumbled upon some Joyce. > > T.S. Eliot at http://members1.chello.nl/~a.vanarum8/EliotProject/ > but NOT the real deal. Standard annotations. > > Just type in the poet and hypertext. Though now there is not much. No > incentive or more accurately self-aggrandizement. For example, the > langpos jumped on the bandwagon like they do with so much else, but when > you start hypotexting langpo poems it naturally has no hermeneutic value > except in the hypertexter's imagination which they will say is the > point. The lang poems manifest their irrelevance in a very extreme way. > Likewise with, say, Knopf's contemporary list. Its useless to look for a > vertical point within the poems vocabulary. The most often used word, > 'I', is so ubiquitous as to challenge the irrelavence(sic?) of > langpo--so the argument that the reader brings his own cultural baggage > read biases gains efficacy and keeps that product propped up by the > dominant class. On the hand, the lie about the slack mish-mosh approach > to the Cantos or 'A' gets shot right in the ass when the High Modernist > Epic is brought into the hypertext. > > I'm writing an essay for the next issue of our mag, FlashPoint. > > http://www.flashpointmag.com/ > > It will be a short special, devoted (mostly) to Joyce and Zukofsky(100 > anniversary of his birth) we hope to have ready by Bloomsday. CP > > Crisman Cooley wrote: > > > CP, Do you know of hypertext versions of these works? If so, I'd be > > interested in sources. Thanks. > > > > > From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art > > > > > However, certain advocates of a head-on epistemological > > > critique of the sciences have emerged after decades of study > > > and poetic construction in the High Modernist Epic mode. > > > This technique, aside from its scholarly requirements, has > > > proven a worthy adversary and interface to scientific > > > discourse. On the micro-level, the poetic distinctions > > > between the poetry Vendler has championed compared to say > > > The Cantos, Duncan's Work in Progress, Zuk.'s 'A', Joyce, > > > Olson, Tolson etc. become 'graphically' obvious in > > > hypertext. When the subject matter of a High Modernist text > > > runs counter to and is critical of current scientific > > > discourse, the hypertext method dissolves the so called > > > 'obscurity' of these texts while providing a hermeneutic > > > hypertree. In other words, after Olson, the High Modernist > > > Epic enters the 'field' of technological discourse IN TACT. > > > Now, those who want to see what the High Modernist has to > > > say can do so with far less effort and do so even if the > > > work is not strictly hypertext-ed. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sat May 8 12:04:02 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:04:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry, but to include (Robert, I assume) Duncan and Olson in High Modernist tradition is beyond me. Zuk. I don't know. Moore, Pound, Eliot, yes... Joyce, yes... but Olson went for the more immediate impact of the "open field." I think of the Black Mountain School as closer to Beat than High Modern, but I'm willing to be instructed. Perhaps Olson can be thought of as a bridge between High Modern and the New York School, where shared objects become the objects at hand, not necessarily chosen, but to lump Olson with Pound or Eliot I need help. And hypertext, in my opinion, is useful for nothing more than allusion-laden poetry with instant mouse access to references. It can be abused as easily as footnotes, which Eliot famously regretted appending to "The Waste Land." Such distractions, or better, temptations, during the experience of the poem diminish it for me. Exploring a hypertree is a second-order experience that can rob us of the first impact of a poem upon the imagination. Best, I think, in a longer poem, to hardcopy it first and enjoy it slowly on paper. Also, I think epic poetry is dead except for academics, the same for long narratives. No "common reader" as posited by Bloom has the patience to read them. The novel successfully replaced epic poems long ago, if not the spirit of the epic, which can sometimes be contained in a shorter piece, like "The Waste Land" or "Howl." One man's opinion of moonlight, CE ----- Original Message ----- From: R.Gancie/C.Parcelli To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art I wouldn't put too much stock in Vendler's remarks. She's cribbing from other sources while at the same time attempting to counter their recent successes. Realizing the subservient role that poetry places iteself in vis a vis the sciences, history, philosophy et al when the mode of expression is simply metaphor habituated to the prevailing scientific positivism, Vendler has despaired of that aesthetic canard most exemplified in aspect by Jorie Graham. However, certain advocates of a head-on epistemological critique of the sciences have emerged after decades of study and poetic construction in the High Modernist Epic mode. This technique, aside from its scholarly requirements, has proven a worthy adversary and interface to scientific discourse. On the micro-level, the poetic distinctions between the poetry Vendler has championed compared to say The Cantos, Duncan's Work in Progress, Zuk.'s 'A', Joyce, Olson, Tolson etc. become 'graphically' obvious in hypertext. When the subject matter of a High Modernist text runs counter to and is critical of current scientific discourse, the hypertext method dissolves the so called 'obscurity' of these texts while providing a hermeneutic hypertree. In other words, after Olson, the High Modernist Epic enters the 'field' of technological discourse IN TACT. Now, those who want to see what the High Modernist has to say can do so with far less effort and do so even if the work is not strictly hypertext-ed. As a result of some super-heated exchanges on several sites a few years ago, Vendler in a rather unsavory way was made aware of this further ascendancy of High Modernist poetic principles. Apparently, she has wisely given up trying to reconcile HM with her chosen poetic path and pathmakers. CP Bentley wrote: As someone who did her graduate work in philosophy, I'm kind of offended at this quote. It also seems like a false dicotomy to me. Why can't the humanities study the products of aesthetic endeavor AND history AND philososphy? My incomplete dissertation is on the application of the history of philosophy of aesthetics applied to contemporary problems,such as prejudice. Yet I also write poetry. Helen Vendler's quote here is kind of like saying that the purpose of the sciences should be to study physics instead of biology, chemistry, or geology. (Feeling a little sensitive this Saturday morning.) Bentley ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art Helen Vendler at last night's 33rd annual Jefferson Lecture "I want to propose that the humanities should take, as their central objects of study, not the historical record or the works of philosophers, but the products of aesthetic endeavor," she said. "Which means no poetry using techniques not in wide-spread use by 1950," she added, under her breath. (Of course, I totally agree with what she was quoted as saying, although what "the humanities" take as "their central objects of study" is of little importance compared with what intelligent commentators on the arts do. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 8 13:01:15 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 12:01:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gary Snyder Message-ID: Gary Snyder is 74 years old today. Piute Creek One granite ridge A tree, would be enough Or even a rock, a small creek, A bark shred in a pool. Hill beyond hill, folded and twisted Tough trees crammed In thin stone fractures A huge moon on it all, is too much. The mind wanders. A million Summers, night air still and the rocks Warm. Sky over endless mountains. All the junk that goes with being human Drops away, hard rock wavers Even the heavy present seems to fail This bubble of a heart. Words and books Like a small creek off a high ledge Gone in the dry air. A clear, attentive mind Has no meaning but that Which sees is truly seen. No one loves rock, yet we are here. Night chills. A flick In the moonlight Slips into Juniper shadow: Back there unseen Cold proud eyes Of Cougar or Coyote Watch me rise and go. Gary Snyder ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 12:45:20 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 12:45:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> Dear C.E. Chaffin, We at FP tinker with the the High Modernist Epic taxonomy as many do, and we don't discount historical and stylistic connections. I feel very comfortable with the way we are including voices in FlashPoint despite our occasional concession. As for the rest, there is a certain revitalization for the High Modernist Epic in hypertext if only because its often dismissed because of its perceived difficulty. It is indeed a rare individual such as yourself that can bring such a pure historical ennui to an area where I encounter such tempests, such resistance. One young feller on the Knopf list recently called Pound's historical references 'gibberish' to my email face unaware, (and I'm certain he wouldn't know enough to care) that, many years ago, I had spent a year studying that aspect of Pound under Rudd Fleming who had spent 9 years visiting Pound and translatng Greek drama with him. What's your secret? Another implied I was a mere 20 year old with no education after I had laid out perhaps a dozen concrete examples to support my position that the Knopf lyric was a class and race laden form of expression. Knopf hurredly put up a Langston Hughes poem as if to backhandedly support my view. As for Olson, I think he is too plugged into scholarship (primary hisorical texts and materials) to warrant association with the beats but this is derived from the biases we at FlashPoint have long held and fervently believe in. (As some on this list know, I'm a big William Burroughs fan, and I will shamelessly slip him into my HMEP entourage.) I mean, the Langpos claim any and everybody they currently feel they can exploit. Having said that, I would include Ed Dorn's Gunslinger and North Atlantic Turbine in my HMEP list not just because I love the poems but because he described to me the hard, hard out of body labor he had to bring to Slinger and admitted, the working methodology was like Pounds when he and I read together years ago and I was THE young Poundian here. Also, anytime I'm in a conversation and Heidegger is called a Nazi apologist and nothing more, I not only reflect on my readings of Being and Time and the rest of Heidegger, but the hermeneutically accurate rolick that Dorn gave him in Slinger. Personally, I'd like to see somebody animate Slinger and Naked Lunch just like was done with Lenny Bruce's Thank You Masked Man. Bruce too is, to my mind, another great HMEP and his most epic piece is The Palladium. I first heard Father Flotsky's Triumph when I was 15. It wasn't until 20 years later that I understood what the joke/reference about Wally Simpson was about, and I haven't stopped laughing since. To me that's High Modernist Epic Poetry. Call me crude. Call me lewd. But don't call me late for dinner. CP "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > I'm sorry, but to include (Robert, I assume) Duncan and > Olson in High Modernist tradition is beyond me. Zuk. I > don't know. Moore, Pound, Eliot, yes... Joyce, yes... but > Olson went for the more immediate impact of the "open > field." I think of the Black Mountain School as closer to > Beat than High Modern, but I'm willing to be > instructed. Perhaps Olson can be thought of as a bridge > between High Modern and the New York School, where shared > objects become the objects at hand, not necessarily > chosen, but to lump Olson with Pound or Eliot I need > help. And hypertext, in my opinion, is useful for nothing > more than allusion-laden poetry with instant mouse access > to references. It can be abused as easily as footnotes, > which Eliot famously regretted appending to "The Waste > Land." Such distractions, or better, temptations, during > the experience of the poem diminish it for me. Exploring a > hypertree is a second-order experience that can rob us of > the first impact of a poem upon the imagination. Best, I > think, in a longer poem, to hardcopy it first and enjoy it > slowly on paper. Also, I think epic poetry is dead except > for academics, the same for long narratives. No "common > reader" as posited by Bloom has the patience to read > them. The novel successfully replaced epic poems long > ago, if not the spirit of the epic, which can sometimes be > contained in a shorter piece, like "The Waste Land" or > "Howl." One man's opinion of moonlight, CE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R.Gancie/C.Parcelli > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 7:38 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts > With Art > I wouldn't put too much stock in Vendler's > remarks. She's cribbing from other sources while > at the same time attempting to counter their > recent successes. Realizing the subservient role > that poetry places iteself in vis a vis the > sciences, history, philosophy et al when the > mode of expression is simply metaphor habituated > to the prevailing scientific positivism, Vendler > has despaired of that aesthetic canard most > exemplified in aspect by Jorie Graham. > > However, certain advocates of a head-on > epistemological critique of the sciences have > emerged after decades of study and poetic > construction in the High Modernist Epic mode. > This technique, aside from its scholarly > requirements, has proven a worthy adversary and > interface to scientific discourse. On the > micro-level, the poetic distinctions between the > poetry Vendler has championed compared to say > The Cantos, Duncan's Work in Progress, Zuk.'s > 'A', Joyce, Olson, Tolson etc. become > 'graphically' obvious in hypertext. When the > subject matter of a High Modernist text runs > counter to and is critical of current scientific > discourse, the hypertext method dissolves the so > called 'obscurity' of these texts while > providing a hermeneutic hypertree. In other > words, after Olson, the High Modernist Epic > enters the 'field' of technological discourse IN > TACT. Now, those who want to see what the High > Modernist has to say can do so with far less > effort and do so even if the work is not > strictly hypertext-ed. > > As a result of some super-heated exchanges on > several sites a few years ago, Vendler in a > rather unsavory way was made aware of this > further ascendancy of High Modernist poetic > principles. Apparently, she has wisely given up > trying to reconcile HM with her chosen poetic > path and pathmakers. CP > > > Bentley wrote: > > > As someone who did her graduate work in > > philosophy, I'm kind of offended at this > > quote. It also seems like a false dicotomy to > > me. Why can't the humanities study the > > products of aesthetic endeavor AND history AND > > philososphy? My incomplete dissertation is on > > the application of the history of philosophy > > of aesthetics applied to contemporary > > problems,such as prejudice. Yet I also write > > poetry. Helen Vendler's quote here is kind of > > like saying that the purpose of the sciences > > should be to study physics instead of biology, > > chemistry, or geology. (Feeling a little > > sensitive this Saturday morning.) Bentley > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bob Grumman > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A World > > That Starts With Art > > Helen Vendler at last night's 33rd > > annual Jefferson Lecture > > > > "I want to propose that the > > humanities should take, as their > > central objects of study, not the > > historical record or the works of > > philosophers, but the products of > > aesthetic endeavor," she said. > > "Which means no poetry using > > techniques not in wide-spread use by > > 1950," she added, under her breath. > > (Of course, I totally agree with > > what she was quoted as saying, > > although what "the humanities" take > > as "their central objects of study" > > is of little importance compared > > with what intelligent commentators > > on the arts do. --Bob G. > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 14:52:24 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:52:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Just to slip in here without having read everything in the thread because if I don't slip in now I might forget, and probably digressing, I wanted to say that hypertext is THE freshest form of burstnorm poetry going that I know of, and I feel fairly clean saying that because I've never come close to making a hypertext poem--or one of its precursors, scissor poems (or whatever) in which the poem arrives to the reader in separate pages or the equivalent and the reader assmebles them in any order he wants to. I have started a sequence, though, in which I plan each unit of the sequence to start a separate chain so maybe I'm just advertising my future practice. A related thought: probably the next important epic poem will use one of those computer racecar games: the driver goes wherever whim takes him and explores the poem within the way one would explore a sculpture--no, a sculpture garden! This will provide new ways to experience beauty, not counter Man's Inhumanty To Man, in whatever puritanical guise CP is pushing it (although rather interestingly at the moment). I don't think epic poetry is dead, only that no one has managed to make a master-epic since Milton. Wordsworth almost did but ran out of narrative vigor. Pound might have if he'd started with some kind of thought-out story. My first thought as to why no one has done a master-epic recently is that the hugely many possibilities the new techniques in poetry have created are still so exciting that the best poets feel no need to go beyond relatively simple lyrics. I believe that once we reach a plateau in the fresh use of the techniques invented in the past century or so, the best poets will want to take them into the next obvious step, the epic. (As, I have to admit, I dream of doing already but may not get to do.) --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 14:46:19 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 14:46:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> You see what I mean, Mr. Chaffin? CP P.S. Thanks Bob. Better it was you than some 23 year old that one might hold out hope for. Bob Grumman wrote: > Just to slip in here without having read everything in the > thread because if I don't slip in now I might forget, and > probably digressing, I wanted to say that hypertext is THE > freshest form of burstnorm poetry going that I know of, > and I feel fairly clean saying that because I've never > come close to making a hypertext poem--or one of its > precursors, scissor poems (or whatever) in which the poem > arrives to the reader in separate pages or the equivalent > and the reader assmebles them in any order he wants to. I > have started a sequence, though, in which I plan each unit > of the sequence to start a separate chain so maybe I'm > just advertising my future practice. A related thought: > probably the next important epic poem will use one of > those computer racecar games: the driver goes wherever > whim takes him and explores the poem within the way one > would explore a sculpture--no, a sculpture garden! This > will provide new ways to experience beauty, not counter > Man's Inhumanty To Man, in whatever puritanical guise CP > is pushing it (although rather interestingly at the > moment). I don't think epic poetry is dead, only that no > one has managed to make a master-epic since Milton. > Wordsworth almost did but ran out of narrative vigor. > Pound might have if he'd started with some kind of > thought-out story. My first thought as to why no one has > done a master-epic recently is that the hugely many > possibilities the new techniques in poetry have created > are still so exciting that the best poets feel no need to > go beyond relatively simple lyrics. I believe that once > we reach a plateau in the fresh use of the techniques > invented in the past century or so, the best poets will > want to take them into the next obvious step, the epic. > (As, I have to admit, I dream of doing already but may not > get to do.) --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 8 15:38:39 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 15:38:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Surviving quicksand and quagmire Message-ID: FYI "Quicksand is a mixture of sand and water that forms a shifting mass. It yields easily to pressure and tends to suck down and engulf objects resting on its surface. It varies in depth and is usually localized. Quicksand generally occurs on flat shores, in silt-choked rivers with shifting water courses, and near the mouths of large rivers. If you are uncertain whether a sandy area is quicksand, toss a small stone on it. The stone will sink in quicksand. "Although quicksand has more suction than mud or muck, you can cross it in the same way you do a bog; flatten out, face downward, arms spread, and move slowly across. "You can give yourself more buoyancy by forming air pockets in your clothing. Tie your pants at the ankles to form air pockets in the legs. Blow your breath inside the front opening of your collar to form air pockets over your shoulders." fr. *US Army Survival Manual: FM 21-76* [repr. by Dorset Press, New York, 2002] "Quicksand is one of the most widely publicized outdoor dander, but one of the least understood. "Quicksand is actually fine sand floating 'on top of and in water.' The water is usually from a weak underground spring and is moving up with enough pressure to keep the grains of sand suspended and moving or 'quick.' A quagmire is similar to quicksand. It is composed of decayed material or mud suspended by underground water. "The first rule in either case is to remember you're basically in water and you can 'swim' or crawl free. "The most important rule is not to panic. Usually when you find yourself in quicksand you've already sunk up to your waist and struggling will only cause you to sink faster. "Immediately throw yourself out backwards flat on the sand, arms and legs spread as wide as possible. While you float on the sand try to gently extricate each leg, then roll and try to swim out. "The main thing is to prevent tiring yourself, so take your time and rest often. "Panic-stricken struggling only causes you to sink 'by gravity' deeper into the mire. In trying to pull out one leg you will only force the other leg (with all your weight) down further. "Avoid sudden motions--take your time. "Usually quicksand or quagmire beds are not too large so don't give up. "Quicksand or quagmire are found all over the North American continent, so learn to watch for them. Quicksand is most often found in areas where water rises to the surface of the earth, for instance in stream beds and around springs. Be especially careful in sandy soil around these areas. Quagmires are often found around old waterholes, in muskeg country and around swamps, marshes and tidal flats. "If you're traveling in quicksand or quagmire country, carry a long pole and probe the ground ahead of you." fr. Mark Gregory, *The Good Earth Almanac Survival Handbook* [New York: Sheed and Ward, Inc., 1973] cc: Mssrs. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Powell, Blair Hal Not responsible for topographical errors. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 16:23:42 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:23:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A World That Starts With Art References: Message-ID: <025201c4353a$5d015440$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Not to start an argument (though not caring if I do), but just because I feel like expressing a view of Vendler, some comments. > A bit more from the article on Vendler, which is well worth reading. I'd > like to see the full text of her speech, myself. I like her remark that > "the arts exist to relocate us in the body. . . . They situate us on the > Earth." I wonder where she thinks science situates us. But I agree with her (conventional) thought that the arts "relocate us in the body," although I would more specifically claim that they counter science's tendency to limit us to our reducticeptual awarenesses by opening or re-opening cerebral connections to our other awarenesses, mainly our fundaceptual (sensual, visceral and muscular) and anthroceptual (people and self-involved)awarenesses, to use my psychology's terminology (for David's entertainment). I do not go along with her claim that the arts exist to do this. They exist to give us pleasure, period, albeit it is generally mostly sensual pleasure as opposed to "cerebral" pleasure (which is also of the earth). I'm not sure why Vendler thinks "re-locating us in the body is a good thing. For me, their tendency to "de-linearize" our thought-patterns, and--as a result--nourish our creativity, is their main secondary value. Their ability to give us pleasure is vastly more important than that, for me. (Science also gives us pleasure, and by "linearizing" our thought-patterns, focuses our creativity, which is its main secondary value, and a value equal to art's secondary value, in my view.) > Talking up the arts isn't radical; talking up the arts as more fundamental > to life than history is. Can't see it, though poetry is much more important to me than history is. >That this seems utopian, if not downright silly to > most people, is based on a prejudice against which Vendler has struggled > with her life's work. Her analysis of poetry, methodical, conservative and > brilliant, No--because you can't be brilliant doing close analyses of received poetry and contemporary poetry using received techniques. She is a competent close-reader of the canon, a sometimes mildly interesting reviewer of a few contemporary veerless poets, but not at all brilliant. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 16:51:30 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:51:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <028101c4353e$3f65b0d0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> You see what I mean, Mr. Chaffin? CP I don't--although I did say I was probably digressing into a concern of mine, which would explain what I missed, if anything. P.S. Thanks Bob. Better it was you than some 23 year old that one might hold out hope for. Care to say what was dumb about my remarks--aside from maybe their not having much or anything to do with what you two were saying? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sat May 8 17:38:25 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 23:38:25 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Ah, definitions and quicksand, thanks Mr. Johnson. I said epic poetry is dead, meaning the classic book-length narrative in verse. I said the spirit of epic poetry can survive, as in "The Waste Land" and "Howl." But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read through them entire? Jennifer Ley, by the way, who founded _Perihelion_ (before Mike Neff relieved her as editor and founder with the help of lawyers), was one of the first promoters of hypertext on the web, along with the folks from Chicago who founded _Agnieska's Dowry_, whose names now escape me-- wait, Marek Lugowski and esp. his partner... a woman... whose name really does escape me. No aspersions on Paul Lake's interview there, which I enjoyed. Further on the _Perihelion_ masthead, I'm a fan of Robert Sward and we published Allyson Shaw as a feature in _Melic_ long before Houlihan and Neff recruited her. As for Houlihan, I'll let sleeping dogs lie, but there is much history there.... whose recounting would benefit no one. Eliot wrestled with the epic more than any other poet in the 20th century, and if he couldn't do it, well... I don't think most of us has a chance, and besides, as I said before, the novel replaced it. So even a master-epic, if it could be written, would be read by an academic few IMHO. And next to Dante and Homer, Milton, for all his erudition, was derivative, just as his model Virgil was. Which makes Dante's originality even more striking. I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ or _Beowulf_ or _The Mabinogion_ here, just confining myself to the usual suspects in modern languages, though I think _Piers Plowman_ underrated, and one might make an argument for Chaucer, except _Troilus and Cressida_ seems a little wooden and _The Canterbury Tales_ lack Arnold's "high seriousness." But I consider _The Brothers Karamazov_ and _Ulysses_ epics of a sort, and one could increase the list to include Proust and other notables if one wished, including Dickens and Tolstoy and Thomas Mann, etc. I think of TWL as a mini-epic, and I don't think poetry has lent itself to the epic for over one hundred years. Wordsworth may have come close to the epic Iowa Workshop Poem in his _Prelude_ but I prefer to call it _The Quaalude_. Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_? Not. I do appreciate Bob Grumman's fearless opinionating for stirring the pot, even if I often disagree and find some of his remarks too nascent for a considered response. Lastly, re: hypertext. I prefer my poetry on paper. I think hypertext valuable for poems with vast connections the unspecialized reader may miss, but I like to hold a poem in my hands. I think it's one of those anthropological ergonomic limits. Saw a camera advertised last night that was about the size of a credit card, you could even take twenty-second videos with it. My hands need something bigger to take a picture. I don't like a video display terminal for enjoying poetry either, although it is convenient for poetasting, but not zu geniessen in Gemutlichkeit. I'll stop here, it's hot and humid here in Mexico. "One man's opinion of moonlight" (--Donovan, "Young Girl's Blues"), --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? Just to slip in here without having read everything in the thread because if I don't slip in now I might forget, and probably digressing, I wanted to say that hypertext is THE freshest form of burstnorm poetry going that I know of, and I feel fairly clean saying that because I've never come close to making a hypertext poem--or one of its precursors, scissor poems (or whatever) in which the poem arrives to the reader in separate pages or the equivalent and the reader assmebles them in any order he wants to. I have started a sequence, though, in which I plan each unit of the sequence to start a separate chain so maybe I'm just advertising my future practice. A related thought: probably the next important epic poem will use one of those computer racecar games: the driver goes wherever whim takes him and explores the poem within the way one would explore a sculpture--no, a sculpture garden! This will provide new ways to experience beauty, not counter Man's Inhumanty To Man, in whatever puritanical guise CP is pushing it (although rather interestingly at the moment). I don't think epic poetry is dead, only that no one has managed to make a master-epic since Milton. Wordsworth almost did but ran out of narrative vigor. Pound might have if he'd started with some kind of thought-out story. My first thought as to why no one has done a master-epic recently is that the hugely many possibilities the new techniques in poetry have created are still so exciting that the best poets feel no need to go beyond relatively simple lyrics. I believe that once we reach a plateau in the fresh use of the techniques invented in the past century or so, the best poets will want to take them into the next obvious step, the epic. (As, I have to admit, I dream of doing already but may not get to do.) --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 17:17:06 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:17:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> <028101c4353e$3f65b0d0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409D4E51.92D3E924@ix.netcom.com> Christ! Who'd know where to begin? After all, there was a context Bob. But I don't think that much matters to you. This reminds me of a domestic parable I was involved in recently. My wife and I were watching our 2 nephews ages 3 and 4 so anything cerebral like reading was out the window. So I was watching the ball game when one of the boys decided to park himself in front of the screen. I asked him politely to move upon which he turns to me and says "Uncle Carlo. Everything's not about you." And this is why I, personally, find it so hard to respond to you in any meaningful way, Bob. CP Bob Grumman wrote: > > > You see what I mean, Mr. Chaffin? CP I > don't--although I did say I was probably > digressing into a concern of mine, which would > explain what I missed, if anything.P.S. Thanks > Bob. Better it was you than some 23 year old > that one might hold out hope for. > > Care to say what was dumb about my > remarks--aside from maybe their not having much > or anything to do with what you two were saying? > > --Bob G. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 17:31:53 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:31:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409D51C8.78E22E41@ix.netcom.com> I disagree. "Il miglior fabbro" did. CP "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > Ah, definitions and quicksand, thanks Mr. Johnson. > > I said epic poetry is dead, meaning the classic book-length narrative in > verse. > > I said the spirit of epic poetry can survive, as in "The Waste Land" and > "Howl." > > But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read through > them entire? > > Jennifer Ley, by the way, who founded _Perihelion_ (before Mike Neff > relieved her as editor and founder with the help of lawyers), was one of the > first promoters of hypertext on the web, along with the folks from Chicago > who founded _Agnieska's Dowry_, whose names now escape me-- wait, Marek > Lugowski and esp. his partner... a woman... whose name really does escape > me. > > No aspersions on Paul Lake's interview there, which I enjoyed. > > Further on the _Perihelion_ masthead, I'm a fan of Robert Sward and we > published Allyson Shaw as a feature in _Melic_ long before Houlihan and Neff > recruited her. As for Houlihan, I'll let sleeping dogs lie, but there is > much history there.... whose recounting would benefit no one. > > Eliot wrestled with the epic more than any other poet in the 20th century, > and if he couldn't do it, well... I don't think most of us has a chance, and > besides, as I said before, the novel replaced it. So even a master-epic, if > it could be written, would be read by an academic few IMHO. > > And next to Dante and Homer, Milton, for all his erudition, was derivative, > just as his model Virgil was. > > Which makes Dante's originality even more striking. > > I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ or _Beowulf_ or _The > Mabinogion_ here, just confining myself to the usual suspects in modern > languages, though I think _Piers Plowman_ underrated, and one might make an > argument for Chaucer, except _Troilus and Cressida_ seems a little wooden > and _The Canterbury Tales_ lack Arnold's "high seriousness." > > But I consider _The Brothers Karamazov_ and _Ulysses_ epics of a sort, and > one could increase the list to include Proust and other notables if one > wished, including Dickens and Tolstoy and Thomas Mann, etc. > > I think of TWL as a mini-epic, and I don't think poetry has lent itself to > the epic for over one hundred years. Wordsworth may have come close to the > epic Iowa Workshop Poem in his _Prelude_ but I prefer to call it _The > Quaalude_. Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_? Not. > > I do appreciate Bob Grumman's fearless opinionating for stirring the pot, > even if I often disagree and find some of his remarks too nascent for a > considered response. > > Lastly, re: hypertext. I prefer my poetry on paper. I think hypertext > valuable for poems with vast connections the unspecialized reader may miss, > but I like to hold a poem in my hands. I think it's one of those > anthropological ergonomic limits. Saw a camera advertised last night that > was about the size of a credit card, you could even take twenty-second > videos with it. My hands need something bigger to take a picture. I don't > like a video display terminal for enjoying poetry either, although it is > convenient for poetasting, but not zu geniessen in Gemutlichkeit. > > I'll stop here, it's hot and humid here in Mexico. > > "One man's opinion of moonlight" (--Donovan, "Young Girl's Blues"), > > --CE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:52 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? > > Just to slip in here without having read everything in the thread because if > I don't slip in now I might forget, and probably digressing, I wanted to say > that hypertext is THE freshest form of burstnorm poetry going that I know > of, and I feel fairly clean saying that because I've never come close to > making a hypertext poem--or one of its precursors, scissor poems (or > whatever) in which the poem arrives to the reader in separate pages or the > equivalent and the reader assmebles them in any order he wants to. I have > started a sequence, though, in which I plan each unit of the sequence to > start a separate chain so maybe I'm just advertising my future practice. > > A related thought: probably the next important epic poem will use one of > those computer racecar games: the driver goes wherever whim takes him and > explores the poem within the way one would explore a sculpture--no, a > sculpture garden! > > This will provide new ways to experience beauty, not counter Man's Inhumanty > To Man, in whatever puritanical guise CP is pushing it (although rather > interestingly at the moment). > > I don't think epic poetry is dead, only that no one has managed to make a > master-epic since Milton. Wordsworth almost did but ran out of narrative > vigor. Pound might have if he'd started with some kind of thought-out > story. My first thought as to why no one has done a master-epic recently is > that the hugely many possibilities the new techniques in poetry have created > are still so exciting that the best poets feel no need to go beyond > relatively simple lyrics. I believe that once we reach a plateau in the > fresh use of the techniques invented in the past century or so, the best > poets will want to take them into the next obvious step, the epic. (As, I > have to admit, I dream of doing already but may not get to do.) > > --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 8 18:02:39 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:02:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { -----Original Message----- { From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu { [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of C. E. Chaffin { Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 5:38 PM { To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? { { { Ah, definitions and quicksand, thanks Mr. Johnson. { { I said epic poetry is dead, meaning the classic book-length narrative in { verse. { { I said the spirit of epic poetry can survive, as in "The Waste Land" and { "Howl." { { But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read through { them entire? { { Jennifer Ley, by the way, who founded _Perihelion_ (before Mike Neff { relieved her as editor and founder with the help of lawyers), was one of the { first promoters of hypertext on the web, along with the folks from Chicago { who founded _Agnieska's Dowry_, whose names now escape me-- wait, Marek { Lugowski and esp. his partner... a woman... whose name really does escape { me. { { No aspersions on Paul Lake's interview there, which I enjoyed. { { Further on the _Perihelion_ masthead, I'm a fan of Robert Sward and we { published Allyson Shaw as a feature in _Melic_ long before Houlihan and Neff { recruited her. As for Houlihan, I'll let sleeping dogs lie, but there is { much history there.... whose recounting would benefit no one. { { Eliot wrestled with the epic more than any other poet in the 20th century, { and if he couldn't do it, well... I don't think most of us has a chance, and { besides, as I said before, the novel replaced it. So even a master-epic, if { it could be written, would be read by an academic few IMHO. { { And next to Dante and Homer, Milton, for all his erudition, was derivative, { just as his model Virgil was. { { Which makes Dante's originality even more striking. { { I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ or _Beowulf_ or _The { Mabinogion_ here, just confining myself to the usual suspects in modern { languages, though I think _Piers Plowman_ underrated, and one might make an { argument for Chaucer, except _Troilus and Cressida_ seems a little wooden { and _The Canterbury Tales_ lack Arnold's "high seriousness." { { But I consider _The Brothers Karamazov_ and _Ulysses_ epics of a sort, and { one could increase the list to include Proust and other notables if one { wished, including Dickens and Tolstoy and Thomas Mann, etc. { { I think of TWL as a mini-epic, and I don't think poetry has lent itself to { the epic for over one hundred years. Wordsworth may have come close to the { epic Iowa Workshop Poem in his _Prelude_ but I prefer to call it _The { Quaalude_. Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_? Not. { { I do appreciate Bob Grumman's fearless opinionating for stirring the pot, { even if I often disagree and find some of his remarks too nascent for a { considered response. { { Lastly, re: hypertext. I prefer my poetry on paper. I think hypertext { valuable for poems with vast connections the unspecialized reader may miss, { but I like to hold a poem in my hands. I think it's one of those { anthropological ergonomic limits. Saw a camera advertised last night that { was about the size of a credit card, you could even take twenty-second { videos with it. My hands need something bigger to take a picture. I don't { like a video display terminal for enjoying poetry either, although it is { convenient for poetasting, but not zu geniessen in Gemutlichkeit. { { I'll stop here, it's hot and humid here in Mexico. { { "One man's opinion of moonlight" (--Donovan, "Young Girl's Blues"), { { { --CE { { { ----- Original Message ----- { From: Bob Grumman { To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:52 PM { Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? { { { Just to slip in here without having read everything in the thread because if { I don't slip in now I might forget, and probably digressing, I wanted to say { that hypertext is THE freshest form of burstnorm poetry going that I know { of, and I feel fairly clean saying that because I've never come close to { making a hypertext poem--or one of its precursors, scissor poems (or { whatever) in which the poem arrives to the reader in separate pages or the { equivalent and the reader assmebles them in any order he wants to. I have { started a sequence, though, in which I plan each unit of the sequence to { start a separate chain so maybe I'm just advertising my future practice. { { A related thought: probably the next important epic poem will use one of { those computer racecar games: the driver goes wherever whim takes him and { explores the poem within the way one would explore a sculpture--no, a { sculpture garden! { { This will provide new ways to experience beauty, not counter Man's Inhumanty { To Man, in whatever puritanical guise CP is pushing it (although rather { interestingly at the moment). { { I don't think epic poetry is dead, only that no one has managed to make a { master-epic since Milton. Wordsworth almost did but ran out of narrative { vigor. Pound might have if he'd started with some kind of thought-out { story. My first thought as to why no one has done a master-epic recently is { that the hugely many possibilities the new techniques in poetry have created { are still so exciting that the best poets feel no need to go beyond { relatively simple lyrics. I believe that once we reach a plateau in the { fresh use of the techniques invented in the past century or so, the best { poets will want to take them into the next obvious step, the epic. (As, I { have to admit, I dream of doing already but may not get to do.) { { --Bob G. { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 18:31:38 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:31:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> <028101c4353e$3f65b0d0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D4E51.92D3E924@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <02b501c4354c$4eab91f0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Care to say what was dumb about my remarks.> Christ! Who'd know where to begin? After all, there was a context Bob. But I don't think that much matters to you. Learn to read, CP: I said I was sticking in a digression. That's sort of what hypertexters do, now that I think about it. But do keep your amazingly mistaken self-esteem flowing. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 18:11:48 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:11:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> And thus the inversion, retrograde and retrogade-inversion of my original point. If you didn't know that "il miglior fabbro" referred to Eliot's emblematic praise for Pound and Pound's editing of the Wasteland which has its plaque at the beginning of the poem, you now can't call me a willful obscurantist who's just trying to one up you. No, you go to GOOGLE. You type in the phrase, and you know. Now, imagine all the poems that fall under the my definition of High Modernist epic, The Wasteland, Finnegans Wake, The Cantos, 'A', Duncan's Poetry, Olson esp. Maximus, Mel Tolson, Dorn's Gunslinger, Peter Dale Scott's Coming To Jakarta etc., Deconstructing the Demiurge and many more, each with its hundreds and thousands of luminous details available for immediate hermeneutical investigation on the net, side by side with their thematics from, history, technology, philosophy, science, quantum theory, plasma physics, superstring theory, twelve tone music, Monk, Herbie Nichols, bebop, Hoelderlin, Lenny Bruce etc. etc. I'm free to write about anything I like without being called a snob. Yippee. But don't plug plums in and expect Dr. Williams to enter a dialectic or Gerald Stern's 'I' and expect the first 600 hits to be about the poet Gerald Stern or any poet. Maybe, Stern was the snob all along and now things are just getting sorted out. CP "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > Ah, definitions and quicksand, thanks Mr. Johnson. > > I said epic poetry is dead, meaning the classic book-length narrative in > verse. > > I said the spirit of epic poetry can survive, as in "The Waste Land" and > "Howl." > > But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read through > them entire? > > Jennifer Ley, by the way, who founded _Perihelion_ (before Mike Neff > relieved her as editor and founder with the help of lawyers), was one of the > first promoters of hypertext on the web, along with the folks from Chicago > who founded _Agnieska's Dowry_, whose names now escape me-- wait, Marek > Lugowski and esp. his partner... a woman... whose name really does escape > me. > > No aspersions on Paul Lake's interview there, which I enjoyed. > > Further on the _Perihelion_ masthead, I'm a fan of Robert Sward and we > published Allyson Shaw as a feature in _Melic_ long before Houlihan and Neff > recruited her. As for Houlihan, I'll let sleeping dogs lie, but there is > much history there.... whose recounting would benefit no one. > > Eliot wrestled with the epic more than any other poet in the 20th century, > and if he couldn't do it, well... I don't think most of us has a chance, and > besides, as I said before, the novel replaced it. So even a master-epic, if > it could be written, would be read by an academic few IMHO. > > And next to Dante and Homer, Milton, for all his erudition, was derivative, > just as his model Virgil was. > > Which makes Dante's originality even more striking. > > I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ or _Beowulf_ or _The > Mabinogion_ here, just confining myself to the usual suspects in modern > languages, though I think _Piers Plowman_ underrated, and one might make an > argument for Chaucer, except _Troilus and Cressida_ seems a little wooden > and _The Canterbury Tales_ lack Arnold's "high seriousness." > > But I consider _The Brothers Karamazov_ and _Ulysses_ epics of a sort, and > one could increase the list to include Proust and other notables if one > wished, including Dickens and Tolstoy and Thomas Mann, etc. > > I think of TWL as a mini-epic, and I don't think poetry has lent itself to > the epic for over one hundred years. Wordsworth may have come close to the > epic Iowa Workshop Poem in his _Prelude_ but I prefer to call it _The > Quaalude_. Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_? Not. > > I do appreciate Bob Grumman's fearless opinionating for stirring the pot, > even if I often disagree and find some of his remarks too nascent for a > considered response. > > Lastly, re: hypertext. I prefer my poetry on paper. I think hypertext > valuable for poems with vast connections the unspecialized reader may miss, > but I like to hold a poem in my hands. I think it's one of those > anthropological ergonomic limits. Saw a camera advertised last night that > was about the size of a credit card, you could even take twenty-second > videos with it. My hands need something bigger to take a picture. I don't > like a video display terminal for enjoying poetry either, although it is > convenient for poetasting, but not zu geniessen in Gemutlichkeit. > > I'll stop here, it's hot and humid here in Mexico. > > "One man's opinion of moonlight" (--Donovan, "Young Girl's Blues"), > > --CE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:52 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? > > Just to slip in here without having read everything in the thread because if > I don't slip in now I might forget, and probably digressing, I wanted to say > that hypertext is THE freshest form of burstnorm poetry going that I know > of, and I feel fairly clean saying that because I've never come close to > making a hypertext poem--or one of its precursors, scissor poems (or > whatever) in which the poem arrives to the reader in separate pages or the > equivalent and the reader assmebles them in any order he wants to. I have > started a sequence, though, in which I plan each unit of the sequence to > start a separate chain so maybe I'm just advertising my future practice. > > A related thought: probably the next important epic poem will use one of > those computer racecar games: the driver goes wherever whim takes him and > explores the poem within the way one would explore a sculpture--no, a > sculpture garden! > > This will provide new ways to experience beauty, not counter Man's Inhumanty > To Man, in whatever puritanical guise CP is pushing it (although rather > interestingly at the moment). > > I don't think epic poetry is dead, only that no one has managed to make a > master-epic since Milton. Wordsworth almost did but ran out of narrative > vigor. Pound might have if he'd started with some kind of thought-out > story. My first thought as to why no one has done a master-epic recently is > that the hugely many possibilities the new techniques in poetry have created > are still so exciting that the best poets feel no need to go beyond > relatively simple lyrics. I believe that once we reach a plateau in the > fresh use of the techniques invented in the past century or so, the best > poets will want to take them into the next obvious step, the epic. (As, I > have to admit, I dream of doing already but may not get to do.) > > --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 18:13:49 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:13:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> <028101c4353e$3f65b0d0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D4E51.92D3E924@ix.netcom.com> <02b501c4354c$4eab91f0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409D5B9D.DB39E67@ix.netcom.com> No it ain't if that's what you done done did. cp Bob Grumman wrote: > > Care to say what was dumb about my remarks.> > > Christ! Who'd know where to begin? After all, > there was a context Bob. But I don't think that > much matters to you. > > Learn to read, CP: I said I was sticking in a > digression. That's sort of what hypertexters > do, now that I think about it. But do keep your > amazingly mistaken self-esteem flowing. > > --Bob G. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 18:43:33 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:43:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <02cd01c4354d$e677eeb0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Ah, definitions and quicksand, thanks Mr. Johnson. I suppose. > I said epic poetry is dead, meaning the classic book-length narrative in > verse. I was thinking of a classic book-length narrative in what I'd call verse. > I said the spirit of epic poetry can survive, as in "The Waste Land" and > "Howl." I don't find the spirit of epic poetry in either. > But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read through > them entire? Not epics. > Jennifer Ley, by the way, who founded _Perihelion_ (before Mike Neff > relieved her as editor and founder with the help of lawyers), was one of the > first promoters of hypertext on the web, along with the folks from Chicago > who founded _Agnieska's Dowry_, whose names now escape me-- wait, Marek > Lugowski and esp. his partner... a woman... whose name really does escape > me. > No aspersions on Paul Lake's interview there, which I enjoyed. > > Further on the _Perihelion_ masthead, I'm a fan of Robert Sward and we > published Allyson Shaw as a feature in _Melic_ long before Houlihan and Neff > recruited her. As for Houlihan, I'll let sleeping dogs lie, but there is > much history there.... whose recounting would benefit no one. > > Eliot wrestled with the epic more than any other poet in the 20th century, > and if he couldn't do it, well... I don't think most of us has a chance, and > besides, as I said before, the novel replaced it. So even a master-epic, if > it could be written, would be read by an academic few IMHO. Well, I think Pound wrestled with the epic a bit more than Eliot, but do agree that the novel replaced the epic and all narrative poetry--but temporarily, I believe. > And next to Dante and Homer, Milton, for all his erudition, was derivative, > just as his model Virgil was. Dante just told a story, a pretty lame one, in my view--the walk upstairs or whatever Pound said it was. > Which makes Dante's originality even more striking. > > I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ or _Beowulf_ or _The > Mabinogion_ here, just confining myself to the usual suspects in modern > languages, though I think _Piers Plowman_ underrated, and one might make an > argument for Chaucer, except _Troilus and Cressida_ seems a little wooden > and _The Canterbury Tales_ lack Arnold's "high seriousness." Spenser did okay. More interesting than Milton. > But I consider _The Brothers Karamazov_ and _Ulysses_ epics of a sort, and > one could increase the list to include Proust and other notables if one > wished, including Dickens and Tolstoy and Thomas Mann, etc. I wouldn't consider any of them epics, but maybe Finnegans Wake. And though I think War and Peace the most overrated novel of all time, except maybe for Remembrance of Things Past, it is a prose epic. > I think of TWL as a mini-epic, and I don't think poetry has lent itself to > the epic for over one hundred years. Wordsworth may have come close to the > epic Iowa Workshop Poem in his _Prelude_ but I prefer to call it _The > Quaalude_. Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_? Not. > > I do appreciate Bob Grumman's fearless opinionating for stirring the pot, > even if I often disagree and find some of his remarks too nascent for a > considered response. How about the remark that hypertext, as I understand it, can act as a sculpture garden? > Lastly, re: hypertext. I prefer my poetry on paper. I think hypertext > valuable for poems with vast connections the unspecialized reader may miss, > but I like to hold a poem in my hands. I think it's one of those > anthropological ergonomic limits. Saw a camera advertised last night that > was about the size of a credit card, you could even take twenty-second > videos with it. My hands need something bigger to take a picture. I don't > like a video display terminal for enjoying poetry either, although it is > convenient for poetasting, but not zu geniessen in Gemutlichkeit. I think all you're saying is that poems on paper have values poems on the screen can't have. My response is simply, so what? Oral poems, too, have unique values. So do poems composed for the computer. > I'll stop here, it's hot and humid here in Mexico. > > "One man's opinion of moonlight" (--Donovan, "Young Girl's Blues"), Ditto. --Bob. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 18:18:40 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:18:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> <028101c4353e$3f65b0d0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D4E51.92D3E924@ix.netcom.com> <02b501c4354c$4eab91f0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409D5CBF.F454FFD6@ix.netcom.com> Bob, I took yer advise & jis sined up fer The Tarot School Correspondence Course. Jis think. In 16 easy lessons you and I will be able to converse in your native Tarot. CP Bob Grumman wrote: > > Care to say what was dumb about my remarks.> > > Christ! Who'd know where to begin? After all, > there was a context Bob. But I don't think that > much matters to you. > > Learn to read, CP: I said I was sticking in a > digression. That's sort of what hypertexters > do, now that I think about it. But do keep your > amazingly mistaken self-esteem flowing. > > --Bob G. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 8 18:49:10 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:49:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> <028101c4353e$3f65b0d0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D4E51.92D3E924@ix.netcom.com> <02b501c4354c$4eab91f0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B9D.DB39E67@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <02f001c4354e$af587e30$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> No it ain't if that's what you done done did. cp If so, why can't you tell us what hypertexters do do and actually expose my ignorance instead of simply stating that it exists? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 18:49:41 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 18:49:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D2AFA.A6662BEE@ix.netcom.com> <028101c4353e$3f65b0d0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D4E51.92D3E924@ix.netcom.com> <02b501c4354c$4eab91f0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B9D.DB39E67@ix.netcom.com> <02f001c4354e$af587e30$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409D6404.933093@ix.netcom.com> Bob, are you lonely? I been talkin' in a proscribed sense about that all afternoon. Oh! Gotta go. I think UPS is here with my Tarot lessons. CP P.S. Bob. You win. You've worn me out. Like my nephews. And I'd like to state publicly that Bob Grumman never need respond to any of my postss because I, apriori and in advance that is telepathically, acknowledge the utter superiority of his positions to mine in all things under heaven as they are in the earth. Witnessed this Day the 8th of May Two Thousand and Four by the late Edward Teller, the Edward Edward Lansdale, the late Pop Buell and the late James Jesus Angleton both of Hatwidth Court, Bunkmshire, Scotland. I hope said admission brings my correspondent the peace and closure he so richly needs and deserves and helps in the remission of his severe twilight term acne. In all earnestness and using his laptop from the commode. CP Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > No it ain't if that's what you done done did. cp > > If so, why can't you tell us what hypertexters > do do and actually expose my ignorance instead > of simply stating that it exists? > > --Bob G. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Sat May 8 19:45:33 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:45:33 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <023c01c43556$9412b4d0$01acefd8@Emily> But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read through them entire? I've read Paterson entire. I'm not sure I'd call it an epic, though. T. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 19:46:15 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 19:46:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <023c01c43556$9412b4d0$01acefd8@Emily> Message-ID: <409D7146.5B7BA5BA@ix.netcom.com> I have read them and many other long modernist 'epics' through and through again. People have different affinities. I got a long Modern/Post-Modern highly referential work today from a poet for the next FlashPoint. 35 pages. I read it twice. I read it aloud. I read it in Pound's voice. Eliot's voice, then Tristan Corbiere and Baudelaire stepped in. I read it that way because they were there in the music. I couldn't take my ears off of it. Gorgeous work, many years in the making. Great use of scientific discourse too. I studied Paterson formally. Paterson was clearly Williams' attempt to demonstrate to his stuck-up, Idaho buddy Pound and to his imaginary nemesis Eliot that American Poetry could be as Modern as that camembert stinkin' European stuff. I think Williams understimated how difficult that kind of work was especially when you also consider scholarship to be part of the despised European poetic scheming. As much as Pound decried his ability to make the Cantos "cohere", Williams attempt is so ill-digested in comes back in chunks with narry a tooth mark on 'em. As for Olson. Olson explaineth the gaps from Pound out of the Chinese histories primarily of the Warring States period. "What they didn't know, they left out." CP Anthony Robinson wrote: > But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read > through > them entire? > > I've read Paterson entire. I'm not sure I'd call it an epic, though. > > T. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat May 8 23:23:45 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 23:23:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <472D60CC-A168-11D8-A215-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 05:38 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read > through > them entire? I have, gladly. And Walcott's _Omeros_, which nobody's mentioned, and Elytis's To Axion Esti. If you don't want to read them, that's your call. But you assume too much. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. --Rumi From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat May 8 23:40:44 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 23:40:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 05:38 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ BTW, the epic is the Mahabharata; the Bhagavad Gita is a tiny slice of same, the philosophical heart of it, and the core text of yoga, but not in any sense epic. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Yogash citta-vrtti-nirodhah. Yoga is the cessation of compulsive functions of mind. --Patanjali, Yoga Sutra From cc at opus0.com Sun May 9 01:13:37 2004 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 22:13:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ...Starts with Art/High Modern In-Reply-To: <200405081701.i48H12XE029565@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Thanks CP. I've seen that Canto hypertext, but not the Waste Land. Strange how little's been done. > "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > > Dear Crisman Cooley, > > > > Its more of a crusade at this point but there are hypertexts of some of > > Pound's Cantos e.g. > > > > http://www.uncg.edu/eng/pound/canto.htm > > > > I believe I've stumbled upon some Joyce. > > > > T.S. Eliot at http://members1.chello.nl/~a.vanarum8/EliotProject/ > > but NOT the real deal. Standard annotations. > > > > Just type in the poet and hypertext. Though now there is not much. No > > incentive or more accurately self-aggrandizement. My interest in hypertext is merely to avoid having to hold 2 or 3 volumes open at once in order to understand what I'm reading. It is only (potentially) a very good form of index/annotation--though I rarely see any serious annotation done that way. No one has figured out the business model. But I'm surprised that a caffeine-loving graduate student hasn't done all the Cantos or Finnegan's Wake. It doesn't worry me at all to spoil the "experience"-- especially when I come upon a Chinese character in the text. (haha!) Regarding the death of the Epic -- I heard a reading of Pinsky's translation of Inferno and it sounded just like a novel. No reason a novel couldn't sound just like an Epic. The main difference is that most novels pay no attention to rhythm (some pay no attention to sound) and use a lot of extra words. That is my conclusion after listening to 3 or 4 of them per month (on tape & cd) for four years. I think *listening* matters. What's the sense in *reading* an epic? Any more than *reading* a score? > From: "C. E. Chaffin" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? > And hypertext, in my opinion, is useful for nothing more than = > allusion-laden poetry with instant mouse access to references. It can = > be abused as easily as footnotes, which Eliot famously regretted = > appending to "The Waste Land." > > Such distractions, or better, temptations, during the experience of the = > poem diminish it for me. > > Exploring a hypertree is a second-order experience that can rob us of = > the first impact of a poem upon the imagination. Best, I think, in a = > longer poem, to hardcopy it first and enjoy it slowly on paper. > > Also, I think epic poetry is dead except for academics, the same for = > long narratives. No "common reader" as posited by Bloom has the = > patience to read them. The novel successfully replaced epic poems long = > ago, if not the spirit of the epic, which can sometimes be contained in = > a shorter piece, like "The Waste Land" or "Howl." =20 > > One man's opinion of moonlight, > > CE From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 9 01:10:49 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:10:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <023c01c43556$9412b4d0$01acefd8@Emily> Message-ID: Would you recommend the experience to others for other than pedagogical purpose? Thanks, CE | But _Paterson_? _Maximus_? (apologies to CP). Who here has read | through | them entire? | | | I've read Paterson entire. I'm not sure I'd call it an epic, though. | | T. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 9 01:20:58 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:20:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: Message-ID: I appreciate your knowledge, Wendy. Eliot called the Gita an epic, uses it in his 4Q. Guess I had a bad teacher! And glad to hear that two on this list have read Paterson. I hoped to smoke out true devotees. Glad you brought up Walcott, he crossed my mind in this discussion, but where does one stop? Is "Macchu Pichu" (forgive my spelling) an epic? Not the way I read it, nor the Duino Elegies. As for Finnegan's Wake, it is the ultimate hypertext material, and the fans who like to busy themselves with it for eternity are more than welcome. Not surprisingly, those demons of detail, and I don't mean this racistly, the Japanese, who also loved Lynch's Twin Peaks, are the most devoted fans of Finnegan's Wake near as I can tell. They have an active site on it, I don't have the link handy, but they also give a big prize each year. Tea ceremony and all that. God bless 'em, and all who enjoy that eternal chrysanthemum of a puzzle, but I just don't have the patience, no doubt another personal flaw. How many ways can a giant fall? How many ways can a Christ figure die? All I know of FW. Cheers, CE | On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 05:38 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote: | | > I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ | | BTW, the epic is the Mahabharata; the Bhagavad Gita is a tiny slice of | same, the philosophical heart of it, and the core text of yoga, but | not in any sense epic. | | Wendy | | | Wendy Battin | wjbat at conncoll.edu | From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 9 01:23:23 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:23:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Err... this is addressed to me? | And thus the inversion, retrograde and retrogade-inversion of my original point. | If you didn't know that "il miglior fabbro" referred to Eliot's emblematic | praise for Pound and Pound's editing of the Wasteland Geez, read my essay on "The Waste Land," all 12,000 words. Pound edited little. Eliot did most of it. Look at the original ms. which Valerie made available in the 70s. I'll tolerate opinion but not ignorance. You have overreached your expertise, sorry CP. which has its plaque at | the beginning of the poem, you now can't call me a willful obscurantist who's | just trying to one up you. | | No, you go to GOOGLE. You type in the phrase, and you know. Err... you might want to read my essay. | | Now, imagine all the poems that fall under the my definition of High Modernist | epic, The Wasteland, Finnegans Wake, The Cantos, 'A', Duncan's Poetry, Olson | esp. Maximus, Mel Tolson, Dorn's Gunslinger, Peter Dale Scott's Coming To | Jakarta etc., Deconstructing the Demiurge and many more, each with its hundreds | and thousands of luminous details available for immediate hermeneutical | investigation on the net, side by side with their thematics from, history, | technology, philosophy, science, quantum theory, plasma physics, superstring | theory, twelve tone music, Monk, Herbie Nichols, bebop, Hoelderlin, Lenny Bruce | etc. etc. I'm free to write about anything I like without being called a snob. | Yippee. Talk about eclectic. Now I'm leaning towards Bob's left hemisphere endorsement of taxonomy. You're mixing more than metaphors; this is cultural soup. Do you play an instrument? I play six and have been in jazz bands. I doubt you know whereof you speak. Have you done a course in upper division physics? I have. Twelve-tone music is insufferable in western hands, though a sitar can sometimes make sense of it, if pushed beyond its natural limits. | | But don't plug plums in and expect Dr. Williams to enter a dialectic or Ge rald | Stern's 'I' and expect the first 600 hits to be about the poet Gerald Stern or | any poet. Maybe, Stern was the snob all along and now things are just getting | sorted out. CP Jesus, I never called Williams "High Modern," just dissed his "epic." And Stern, whom I've met, ecch.. how did he get thrown in my face? One thing I admire about folks is careful reading. Right now Grumman ranks higher in my book in this respect than yourself. Rant and reason must depart. Feel like I stepped into an ant lion's trap. I guess I misjudged much. Then I'm new to the list. Wait, hot off the press: "I studied Paterson formally. Paterson was clearly Williams' attempt to demonstrate to his stuck-up, Idaho buddy Pound and to his imaginary nemesis Eliot that American Poetry could be as Modern as that camembert stinkin' European stuff. I think Williams understimated how difficult that kind of work was especially when you also consider scholarship to be part of the despised European poetic scheming. As much as Pound decried his ability to make the Cantos "cohere", Williams attempt is so ill-digested in comes back in chunks with narry a tooth mark on 'em." "As for Olson. Olson explaineth the gaps from Pound out of the Chinese histories primarily of the Warring States period. "What they didn't know, they left out." " --CP This is much more reasonable, CP. Why can't you stay in this mode? I for one find it more helpful. --CE From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 9 07:30:36 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 07:30:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: ...Starts with Art/High Modern References: Message-ID: <005b01c435b9$0e6f65e0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > My interest in hypertext is merely to avoid having to hold 2 or 3 volumes > open at once in order to understand what I'm reading. It is only > (potentially) a very good form of index/annotation-- For you. For someone using it aesthetically, it could be--as I've said--a way to present a text sculpturally. It could also be a way to let a reader experience a work the way he wants to--for instance, choose between following one character to a certain point, then catching up with a second character, or continually going back and forth between the two. I haven't done what I think of hypertext as being (to inject myself into the conversation again), but already I'm thinking of all kinds of ways it could be used, and is being used, besides as footnoting and cross-referencing (which, alone, is immense valuable). Or am I talking about something other than hypertext, which I understand as a system of information blocks any one of which has exits into other blocks a user can choose to use or not use? >No one has figured out the business > model. But I'm surprised that a caffeine-loving graduate student hasn't > done all the Cantos or Finnegan's Wake. > > It doesn't worry me at all to spoil the "experience"-- especially when I > come upon a Chinese character in the text. (haha!) > > Regarding the death of the Epic -- I heard a reading of Pinsky's translation > of Inferno and it sounded just like a novel. No reason a novel couldn't > sound just like an Epic. The main difference is that most novels pay no > attention to rhythm (some pay no attention to sound) and use a lot of extra > words. That is my conclusion after listening to 3 or 4 of them per month > (on tape & cd) for four years. There's also a huge difference in thematic size, most of the time. But I think you're really just saying that prose has replaced poetry for mass audiences. > I think *listening* matters. What's the sense in *reading* an epic? Any > more than *reading* a score? I find your assumption that an epic can't have anything visual in it interesting. Aside from that, a proper reader of poetry should hear what he reads. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 9 07:34:45 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 07:34:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <023c01c43556$9412b4d0$01acefd8@Emily> Message-ID: <005f01c435b9$a26e8370$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Would you recommend the experience to others for other than pedagogical > purpose? > > Thanks, > > CE I haven't yet gotten through all of Paterson, which is no big deal because I tend to take a long time on just about any literary work except detective thrillers or sci fi, which I usually read fairly quickly. I would definitely recommend it as an enjoyable work of art. Spenser, too, although when I first tried his epic, I hated it. Maximus, surely, is just a cluster, like "Leaves of Grass," yes? It has good poems in it, though not nearly as many as the Cantos do, in my opinion. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 9 07:38:48 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 07:38:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: Message-ID: <006801c435ba$3379dc70$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > How many ways can a giant fall? How many ways can a Christ figure die? All > I know of FW. > > Cheers, > > CE I read the Burgess digest but it didn't help. Joyce had no narrative sense. I keep hoping for someone with a narrative sense and an understanding of what Joyce did as a poet in Finnegans Wake to go to the level above it. I keep telling myself that I'll try Finnegans Wake again. Maybe I will. --Bob G. > > > > > > | On Saturday, May 8, 2004, at 05:38 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > | > | > I am not going to go into the _Bhagavada-Gita_ > | > | BTW, the epic is the Mahabharata; the Bhagavad Gita is a tiny slice of > | same, the philosophical heart of it, and the core text of yoga, but > | not in any sense epic. > | > | Wendy > | > | > | Wendy Battin > | wjbat at conncoll.edu > | > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 9 07:45:30 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 07:45:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <007001c435bb$22c2ba40$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > One thing I admire about folks is careful reading. Right now Grumman ranks higher in my book in this respect than yourself. RIGHT NOW!!??? Criminy, sometimes I read too fast, or don't read at all (and say so) but . . . > > Rant and reason must depart. > > Feel like I stepped into an ant lion's trap. > > I guess I misjudged much. Then I'm new to the list. > > Wait, hot off the press: > > "I studied Paterson formally. Paterson was clearly Williams' attempt to > demonstrate to his stuck-up, Idaho buddy Pound and to his imaginary > nemesis Eliot that American Poetry could be as Modern as that camembert > stinkin' European stuff. I think Williams understimated how difficult that > kind of work was > especially when you also consider scholarship to be part of the despised > European poetic scheming. As much as Pound decried his ability to make > the Cantos "cohere", Williams attempt is so ill-digested in comes back in > chunks with narry a tooth mark on 'em." > > "As for Olson. Olson explaineth the gaps from Pound out of the Chinese > histories primarily of the Warring States period. "What they didn't know, > they left out." " > > --CP > > This is much more reasonable, CP. Why can't you stay in this mode? I for > one find it more helpful. > > --CE He contains little but boilerplate. When his boilerplate fits some discussion, he looks rational. When it doesn't, he'll stick it in, anyway, and look more like his true self. --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 10:36:56 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 10:36:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> Dear CE Chaffin, I 'looked at' the Variorum when it first came out and am very familiar with it. Those many corrcetions, suggestions and elisions are Pounds!!!!!!! Ergo, as Pound might have said the rest of what you say is, err[or], "dross." 12,000 words of it apparently. CP And that was the point as in inclusive. I wouldn't get so high and mighty after you've written a twelve thousand, read 12000 word essay on Eliot's Wasteland and missed Pound's pivotal role in it e.g. the birth of the Modernist poem. ERRRRR!!!!!! Just ask around. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 10:42:28 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 10:42:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Art: High Modern? References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <007001c435bb$22c2ba40$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409E4353.943CF7C2@ix.netcom.com> Reasonable to who? I think leaning toward Bob's point of view is very good for Bob. And apparently very good for me. CP Bob Grumman wrote: > > One thing I admire about folks is careful reading. Right now Grumman > ranks higher in my book in this respect than yourself. > > RIGHT NOW!!??? Criminy, sometimes I read too fast, or don't read at all > (and say so) but . . . > > > > Rant and reason must depart. > > > > Feel like I stepped into an ant lion's trap. > > > > I guess I misjudged much. Then I'm new to the list. > > > > Wait, hot off the press: > > > > "I studied Paterson formally. Paterson was clearly Williams' attempt to > > demonstrate to his stuck-up, Idaho buddy Pound and to his imaginary > > nemesis Eliot that American Poetry could be as Modern as that camembert > > stinkin' European stuff. I think Williams understimated how difficult that > > kind of work was > > especially when you also consider scholarship to be part of the despised > > European poetic scheming. As much as Pound decried his ability to make > > the Cantos "cohere", Williams attempt is so ill-digested in comes back in > > chunks with narry a tooth mark on 'em." > > > > "As for Olson. Olson explaineth the gaps from Pound out of the Chinese > > histories primarily of the Warring States period. "What they didn't know, > > they left out." " > > > > --CP > > > > This is much more reasonable, CP. Why can't you stay in this mode? I for > > one find it more helpful. > > > > --CE > > He contains little but boilerplate. When his boilerplate fits some > discussion, he looks rational. When it doesn't, he'll stick it in, anyway, > and look more like his true self. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 9 12:25:59 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 11:25:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Long poems Message-ID: Guess I find it hard to care greatly whether a given long poem is epic or not. And even less does my pulse flutter at labels like "high modern." But I am interested in the various ways poets since oh, say Whitman, have contrived to write long poems in the absence of the traditional frameworks. It's a huge subject, obviously, and as a student once wrote, there are many capillaries to the main channel. For my money *Paterson* is a brilliant failure, full of wonderful writing but equally full of sludge, and structurally simply not coherent. Williams was essentially a lyric poet, with little skill at more ambitious poetic architecture. In his meditative mode he did much better with shorter pieces, like the quite wonderful *Desert Music* and the flawed but beautiful *Asphodel*. I essentially agree with Jarrell's assessment: *Paterson* began quite wonderfully and then gradually petered out. WCW couldn't figure out how to end it, or locate enough structural backbone to hold things together. And none ever wished it longer, I'm tempted to say, despite its many bright spots. But for my money the great majority of long poems since "Song of Myself" are failures, some more brilliant than others. Among other concerns, much was sacrificed when poets decided not to employ narrative in their ambitious longer works. Though I haven't yet given Walcott's *Omeros* a deep read, I think he has as much chance as any contemporary poet of being remembered for his long works, and part of the reason is his narrative skill. "The Schooner Flight* is not epic in length, certainly, but may well be remembered as one of the notable poems of our times, I'm guessing. And what do people think of *Another Life*, his first foray onto the epic battlefield? Two booklength poems/sequences that remain very high on my list are Hayden Carruth's *The Sleeping Beauty* and Fred Chappell's *Midquest*. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 9 14:24:06 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:24:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Err... after all the short sketches were abandoned in England before Eliot went to the sanatorium, which are not considered part of the original ms., though Valerie included them in the facsimile-- Pound helped with II and III a bit, Eliot did most of the work on I, IV, and V. And Pound writes that famous, "OK from here, I guess" before section V. He should have edited III a great deal more if he wanted the poem to succeed, and II as well, where much repetitive sexual sterility is played and replayed, and the Songs of the Thames Daughters is a rather weak ending to III, IMHO. Obviously you are too well-informed to read my little bit of research. Curioser and curioser. | Dear CE Chaffin, | | I 'looked at' the Variorum when it first came out and am very familiar with it. | Those many corrcetions, suggestions and elisions are Pounds!!!!!!! There are Eliot's, Pound's and Vivien's notes. Eliot does the lion's share of revision. Check the ms. Familiarity breeds contempt for another's acquaintance with the same. | | Ergo, as Pound might have said the rest of what you say is, err[or], "dross." | 12,000 words of it apparently. CP Firing blanks again. Makes me wonder if you read anything except la biblioteca de su mente proprio. | | And that was the point as in inclusive. I wouldn't get so | high and mighty after you've written a twelve thousand, read 12000 word essay on | Eliot's Wasteland and missed Pound's pivotal role in it e.g. the birth of the | Modernist poem. ERRRRR!!!!!! Just ask around. Ask around? See, now you've made the same misguided point three times. I don't ask around. I read. And apparently you are not a jazz musician nor have you studied physics, not to mention medicine, though you feel qualified, apparently, to bloviate about any discipline you please, including High Modernism, where your mistakes about Eliot make me suspect the rest of your opinions. Although I admire your panache and your creative prose style, I must say your substance does not impress me. Folks like Wendy remind me of the larger framework of the Bhagavada-Gita, for instance, which I find helpful. Or those who've actually waded through Paterson and reported. Many here instruct me and I am happy to learn. Does your High Modern Eclectic Soupology grant you the right to be Humpty-Dumpty? Reason and rant, credo or cant. I have been to your website and will pursue further. Unlike err... some, I intend to read what you're about and give you a fair shake. --CE From Thom424 at aol.com Sun May 9 14:39:07 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 14:39:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Long poems Message-ID: david, tom mcgrath's *letter to an imaginary friend* is high on my list of long poems/epics--and thanks to copper canyon press for finally gathering its four parts (400 + pages) between covers (1998). anyone know a graduate student looking for a dissertation project to create a hypertext/link? thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 9 16:11:57 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:11:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Long poems Message-ID: <293580-22004509201157416@M2W039.mail2web.com> My most recent book is a long poem - some excerpts and promotional material here: http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html Original Message: ----------------- From: Thom424 at aol.com Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 14:39:07 EDT To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Long poems david, tom mcgrath's *letter to an imaginary friend* is high on my list of long poems/epics--and thanks to copper canyon press for finally gathering its four parts (400 + pages) between covers (1998). anyone know a graduate student looking for a dissertation project to create a hypertext/link? thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun May 9 17:05:19 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 23:05:19 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Long poems References: <293580-22004509201157416@M2W039.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <004101c43609$55f7b840$281c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Compliments Tad and thanks for links within links and so, Anny From: Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 10:11 PM > > My most recent book is a long poem - some excerpts and promotional material > here: > > http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html > > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Thom424 at aol.com > Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 14:39:07 EDT > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Long poems > > > david, > > tom mcgrath's *letter to an imaginary friend* is high on my list of long > poems/epics--and thanks to copper canyon press for finally gathering its > four > parts (400 + pages) between covers (1998). > > anyone know a graduate student looking for a dissertation project to create > a > hypertext/link? > > > thom tammaro > moorhead, mn > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 9 18:42:25 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 18:42:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <027001c43616$e81bc150$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Err... after all the short sketches were abandoned in England before Eliot > went to the sanatorium, which are not considered part of the original ms., > though Valerie included them in the facsimile-- > > Pound helped with II and III a bit, Eliot did most of the work on I, IV, and > V. And Pound writes that famous, "OK from here, I guess" before section V. > He should have edited III a great deal more if he wanted the poem to > succeed, and II as well, where much repetitive sexual sterility is played > and replayed, and the Songs of the Thames Daughters is a rather weak ending > to III, IMHO. > > Obviously you are too well-informed to read my little bit of research. I think it's more that CP has an uncanny ability to recognize from a sentence or less of a person's writings whether he is worth attending to on any subject whatever. To your credit, I think he may have needed more than a sentence to recognize your failings. He needed quite a bit less than one to recognize mine. Meanwhile, I tend to lean toward giving more credit to Pound for "A Wasteland" than you (I think) are, myself. But I admit that all I know about it is what I remember from biographies and literary history books, not from any specialized texts like yours (which sounds interesting). For me, the number of details Pound helped with are minor besides his giving Eliot, and modernism, the jump-cut--if he did. Did he? I mean, the extreme ellipses. --Bob G. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 9 19:39:38 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 18:39:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> <027001c43616$e81bc150$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: | Meanwhile, I tend to lean toward giving more credit to Pound for "A | Wasteland" than you (I think) are, myself. But I admit that all I know | about it is what I remember from biographies and literary history books, not | from any specialized texts like yours (which sounds interesting). For me, | the number of details Pound helped with are minor besides his giving Eliot, | and modernism, the jump-cut--if he did. Did he? I mean, the extreme | ellipses. | | --Bob G. Dear Bob, Thank you. I admire your honesty. "But I admit that all I know about it is what I remember from biographies and literary history books, not from any specialized texts like yours (which sounds interesting)." Still, I wish someone would read my essay. Here's the link: http://www.melicreview.com/archive/iss22/cechaffin.html Here's the relevant section for this discussion: II. A GAME OF MANUSCRIPT CHESS Eliot claimed ignorance of the whereabouts of the original manuscript of TWL during his lifetime, though based on the correspondence included in its publication by Valerie Eliot in 1971, this is hard to believe. Just as Eliot forbade an official biography, it's doubtful he wanted the manuscript discovered in his lifetime, for reasons already mentioned. The discovery of the manuscript further complicates any assessment of TWL. It is bad enough to have to wade through the piles of criticism the poem has generated since its appearance, worse to take on a draft of the poem with three editors scribbling on it, namely Eliot, Pound, and Vivien (Eliot's first wife). Any critic or scholar who now undertakes comment on TWL must decide at the outset how far he is prepared to go in contemplating the original draft vs. the final version. What other poem in literary history is studied in this way? Do we search for Yeats' first draft of "The Second Coming," or Frost's drafts of "Death of the Hired Man"? Obviously not. We accept the final version of the authors as final. Yet with TWL comes the baggage of its genesis, particularly since its inscription, "For Ezra Pound il miglior fabbro [the better maker]," leads us to believe that Pound had a weighty hand in its shaping. When I first read about the poem, my impression was that Eliot handed some 1000 lines to Pound, and out of frustration or exhaustion, asked him to fix it. This is not true. The manuscript demonstrates that Eliot did most of the editing, taking some of Pound's suggestions (and most of Vivien's). After the body of the poem in ms., Valerie Eliot saw fit to include a number of fragments which Eliot had already decided against for inclusion in TWL, and these make up the bulk of the discarded material associated with the 1000-line legend. The fragments are interesting as an example of some of Eliot's writing from the same period, but it is not as if Pound said, "Don't include these." Eliot had already discarded them from the poem. Briefly, let's look at some of the points in which the ms. differs from the published version. First, Eliot's original epigram for TWL was taken from Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness and includes the famous exclamation, "The horror! The horror!" (Eliot later used "Mr. Kurtz, he dead" as an epigram for "The Hollow Men.") Before publication Eliot changed his epigram for TWL to a passage from Petronius' Satyricon, a work, like Conrad's, also critical of a disintegrating culture. Here's the quote: "For I saw with my own eyes that Sibyl hanging in a jar at Cunae, and when the acolytes said, 'Sibyl, what do you wish?' she replied, 'I wish to die'"-a fitting introduction to TWL. To proceed to the first section: "The Burial of the Dead" (TBOD) has a false start of 54 lines which Eliot himself eliminated with a stroke of pencil to arrive at the famous "April is the cruellest month" as a beginning. The abandoned lines are a tedious recounting of the social life of the English lower classes, the same sort of narrative we read in AGOC 139-72, from which I've already quoted. To have started the poem on this note would have been disastrous, not to mention boring, and Eliot was a good enough editor to avoid this pitfall. Except for minor suggestions by Pound and Vivien, the rest of TBOD does not markedly differ from the final version. Part II, "A Game of Chess," originally titled, "In the Cage," is little altered in the final copy. Perhaps the best critical addition to this section was made by Vivien, who inserted into the working class dialogue, "What you get married for if you don't want to have children?" (164). It's in Part III, "The Fire Sermon" (TFS), that Pound first asserts himself, essentially scrapping the first 42 lines, just as Eliot scrapped the opening of TBOD. It's Pound's editing that helps Eliot begin on the right note, "The river's tent is broken." Pound also scraps about 15 lines between lines 206 and 207 of the final text, of which Eliot had already stricken five. The draft of Part IV, "Death by Water" (DBW), contains 92 lines, of which Eliot included only the last ten, actually a English translation of part of his earlier poem in French, "Dans Le Restaurant." The discarded lines contain some lovely nautical imagery, through which Pound picked very carefully, attempting to salvage them. However, it was Eliot who decided only to include the short passage that remains. Perhaps the number of deletions and suggestions by Pound for this section encouraged Eliot to scrap nearly all of it, just as he had the beginning of TBOD, just as Pound cut the opening of TFS. (I think it interesting to note that most poets capable of self-editing (without which they would never be good, with some rare exceptions) more frequently delete substantial material from the beginning of poems than elsewhere. As an editor I sometimes say, after reading several stanzas of an author's poem, "Here's where I think the poem begins." An early draft of a poem, in my experience, often mimics starting a car on a winter's day; until the engine starts humming, all the coughs and sputters are mere preparation for the actual drive, and not to be retained, though near impossible to avoid in the scheme of things.) Perhaps Pound's greatest contribution to the poem is his note above the last section, "What the Thunder Said" (WTTS): OK from here on I think (TWL: MS p. 71). This is great encouragement. Vivien's contributions are minor. She made few concrete suggestions, mostly marginal comments, e.g. "wonderful," and her comments are almost exclusively confined to AGOC. I mentioned one already. The lesson of the manuscript is that Pound was a good editor but should in no way be mistaken as the co-author. Eliot eliminated the opening to TBOD; Pound helped eliminate the opening of TFS; Pound's detailed criticism of DBW likely resulted in Eliot jettisoning most of it; and Pound's affirmation of WTTS lent Eliot confidence in preserving the most powerful movement of the poem nearly whole. This is no more nor less than what a good editor does. Thus, in my view, for Eliot to call Pound "the better maker" seems hyperbole; Pound didn't make anything, he simply affirmed some passages and suggested the elimination of others without substantially altering the meat of the poem. (It should be noted that the phrase il miglior fabbro comes from Dante's tribute in the Purgatorio to the Proven?al poet Arnaut Daniel, as "the better craftsman of the mother tongue." Yet the original context does not lessen the weight of gratitude implied by its use in Eliot's dedication.) From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 20:09:02 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 20:09:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <409EC81D.6915C951@ix.netcom.com> What do you mean 'short sketches?' Since the 'Variorum' is a posthumous publication it most likely would have to be Valerie Eliot who is suggesting that the elision of the narrative?=short sketches material occurred before Eliot's breakdown? First, this is unlikely because Pound received the transcript including the narrative?=short sketches passages from Eliot while he was in recuperation. Two, Valerie Eliot gives no indication of the notion that the narrative= short sketches? passages had been dropped in advance and no indication that Pound's role in forming the poem should be diminished from te record compiled by Kenner et al. Three, if Pound got 'em they had at some level been reinstated into the manuscript because it is documented in the Variorum and elsewhere it was Pound who red pencilled them while Eliot was in the sanitorium. If these are the passages you are referring to since they were abandoned, why is the 'abandonment' attributed to E.P. in the Variorum e.g. designated with the red markings? If indeed these alterations were accepted by Eliot, wouldn't that bear up the notion of Pound and Eliot scholars that Pound's suggestions took an essentially narrative, personal poem and provided us with the modernist apocalyptic collage we now read? Isn't it a better poem without the narrative reminiscences--in fact a great one? And did this not lead to Eliot's comment that Pound was "the better maker" e.g. the poet, or was Possum just bein' polite? I don't want to disabuse you of your notions. After all you must know better than Eliot that Pound as a result of his input on the Wasteland was not in the Possum's estimation 'the better maker.' (Makes no sense, right?) If you can one up Eliot and Pound with such ease, what chance do mere mortals like Hugh Kenner have, much less me? CP "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > Err... after all the short sketches were abandoned in England before Eliot > went to the sanatorium, which are not considered part of the original ms., > though Valerie included them in the facsimile-- > > Pound helped with II and III a bit, Eliot did most of the work on I, IV, and > V. And Pound writes that famous, "OK from here, I guess" before section V. > He should have edited III a great deal more if he wanted the poem to > succeed, and II as well, where much repetitive sexual sterility is played > and replayed, and the Songs of the Thames Daughters is a rather weak ending > to III, IMHO. > > Obviously you are too well-informed to read my little bit of research. > > Curioser and curioser. > > | Dear CE Chaffin, > | > | I 'looked at' the Variorum when it first came out and am very familiar > with it. > | Those many corrcetions, suggestions and elisions are Pounds!!!!!!! > > There are Eliot's, Pound's and Vivien's notes. > > Eliot does the lion's share of revision. > > Check the ms. Familiarity breeds contempt for another's acquaintance with > the same. > > | > | Ergo, as Pound might have said the rest of what you say is, err[or], > "dross." > | 12,000 words of it apparently. CP > > Firing blanks again. Makes me wonder if you read anything except la > biblioteca de su mente proprio. > > | > | And that was the point as in inclusive. I wouldn't > get so > | high and mighty after you've written a twelve thousand, read 12000 word > essay on > | Eliot's Wasteland and missed Pound's pivotal role in it e.g. the birth of > the > | Modernist poem. ERRRRR!!!!!! Just ask around. > > Ask around? See, now you've made the same misguided point three times. I > don't ask around. I read. > > And apparently you are not a jazz musician nor have you studied physics, not > to mention medicine, though you feel qualified, apparently, to bloviate > about any discipline you please, including High Modernism, where your > mistakes about Eliot make me suspect the rest of your opinions. > > Although I admire your panache and your creative prose style, I must say > your substance does not impress me. > > Folks like Wendy remind me of the larger framework of the Bhagavada-Gita, > for instance, which I find helpful. > > Or those who've actually waded through Paterson and reported. > > Many here instruct me and I am happy to learn. > > Does your High Modern Eclectic Soupology grant you the right to be > Humpty-Dumpty? > > Reason and rant, credo or cant. > > I have been to your website and will pursue further. Unlike err... some, I > intend to read what you're about and give you a fair shake. > > --CE > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 20:13:18 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 20:13:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> <027001c43616$e81bc150$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409EC91E.63D19CD1@ix.netcom.com> <"Do we search for Yeats' first draft of "The Second Coming,"> Yes. There is a Variorum of Yeats with drafts of a Second Coming. CP "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > | Meanwhile, I tend to lean toward giving more credit to Pound for "A > | Wasteland" than you (I think) are, myself. But I admit that all I know > | about it is what I remember from biographies and literary history books, > not > | from any specialized texts like yours (which sounds interesting). For me, > | the number of details Pound helped with are minor besides his giving > Eliot, > | and modernism, the jump-cut--if he did. Did he? I mean, the extreme > | ellipses. > | > | --Bob G. > > Dear Bob, > > Thank you. I admire your honesty. > > "But I admit that all I know about it is what I remember from biographies > and literary history books, not from any specialized texts like yours (which > sounds interesting)." > > Still, I wish someone would read my essay. > > Here's the link: http://www.melicreview.com/archive/iss22/cechaffin.html > > Here's the relevant section for this discussion: > > II. A GAME OF MANUSCRIPT CHESS > > Eliot claimed ignorance of the whereabouts of the original manuscript of TWL > during his lifetime, though based on the correspondence included in its > publication by Valerie Eliot in 1971, this is hard to believe. Just as Eliot > forbade an official biography, it's doubtful he wanted the manuscript > discovered in his lifetime, for reasons already mentioned. > > The discovery of the manuscript further complicates any assessment of TWL. > It is bad enough to have to wade through the piles of criticism the poem has > generated since its appearance, worse to take on a draft of the poem with > three editors scribbling on it, namely Eliot, Pound, and Vivien (Eliot's > first wife). Any critic or scholar who now undertakes comment on TWL must > decide at the outset how far he is prepared to go in contemplating the > original draft vs. the final version. What other poem in literary history is > studied in this way? Do we search for Yeats' first draft of "The Second > Coming," or Frost's drafts of "Death of the Hired Man"? Obviously not. We > accept the final version of the authors as final. Yet with TWL comes the > baggage of its genesis, particularly since its inscription, "For Ezra Pound > il miglior fabbro [the better maker]," leads us to believe that Pound had a > weighty hand in its shaping. > > When I first read about the poem, my impression was that Eliot handed some > 1000 lines to Pound, and out of frustration or exhaustion, asked him to fix > it. This is not true. The manuscript demonstrates that Eliot did most of the > editing, taking some of Pound's suggestions (and most of Vivien's). After > the body of the poem in ms., Valerie Eliot saw fit to include a number of > fragments which Eliot had already decided against for inclusion in TWL, and > these make up the bulk of the discarded material associated with the > 1000-line legend. The fragments are interesting as an example of some of > Eliot's writing from the same period, but it is not as if Pound said, "Don't > include these." Eliot had already discarded them from the poem. > > Briefly, let's look at some of the points in which the ms. differs from the > published version. > > First, Eliot's original epigram for TWL was taken from Joseph Conrad's Heart > of Darkness and includes the famous exclamation, "The horror! The horror!" > (Eliot later used "Mr. Kurtz, he dead" as an epigram for "The Hollow Men.") > Before publication Eliot changed his epigram for TWL to a passage from > Petronius' Satyricon, a work, like Conrad's, also critical of a > disintegrating culture. Here's the quote: "For I saw with my own eyes that > Sibyl hanging in a jar at Cunae, and when the acolytes said, 'Sibyl, what do > you wish?' she replied, 'I wish to die'"-a fitting introduction to TWL. > > To proceed to the first section: "The Burial of the Dead" (TBOD) has a false > start of 54 lines which Eliot himself eliminated with a stroke of pencil to > arrive at the famous "April is the cruellest month" as a beginning. The > abandoned lines are a tedious recounting of the social life of the English > lower classes, the same sort of narrative we read in AGOC 139-72, from which > I've already quoted. To have started the poem on this note would have been > disastrous, not to mention boring, and Eliot was a good enough editor to > avoid this pitfall. Except for minor suggestions by Pound and Vivien, the > rest of TBOD does not markedly differ from the final version. > > Part II, "A Game of Chess," originally titled, "In the Cage," is little > altered in the final copy. Perhaps the best critical addition to this > section was made by Vivien, who inserted into the working class dialogue, > "What you get married for if you don't want to have children?" (164). > > It's in Part III, "The Fire Sermon" (TFS), that Pound first asserts himself, > essentially scrapping the first 42 lines, just as Eliot scrapped the opening > of TBOD. It's Pound's editing that helps Eliot begin on the right note, "The > river's tent is broken." Pound also scraps about 15 lines between lines 206 > and 207 of the final text, of which Eliot had already stricken five. > > The draft of Part IV, "Death by Water" (DBW), contains 92 lines, of which > Eliot included only the last ten, actually a English translation of part of > his earlier poem in French, "Dans Le Restaurant." The discarded lines > contain some lovely nautical imagery, through which Pound picked very > carefully, attempting to salvage them. However, it was Eliot who decided > only to include the short passage that remains. Perhaps the number of > deletions and suggestions by Pound for this section encouraged Eliot to > scrap nearly all of it, just as he had the beginning of TBOD, just as Pound > cut the opening of TFS. > > (I think it interesting to note that most poets capable of self-editing > (without which they would never be good, with some rare exceptions) more > frequently delete substantial material from the beginning of poems than > elsewhere. As an editor I sometimes say, after reading several stanzas of an > author's poem, "Here's where I think the poem begins." An early draft of a > poem, in my experience, often mimics starting a car on a winter's day; until > the engine starts humming, all the coughs and sputters are mere preparation > for the actual drive, and not to be retained, though near impossible to > avoid in the scheme of things.) > > Perhaps Pound's greatest contribution to the poem is his note above the last > section, "What the Thunder Said" (WTTS): OK from here on I think (TWL: MS p. > 71). This is great encouragement. > > Vivien's contributions are minor. She made few concrete suggestions, mostly > marginal comments, e.g. "wonderful," and her comments are almost exclusively > confined to AGOC. I mentioned one already. > > The lesson of the manuscript is that Pound was a good editor but should in > no way be mistaken as the co-author. Eliot eliminated the opening to TBOD; > Pound helped eliminate the opening of TFS; Pound's detailed criticism of DBW > likely resulted in Eliot jettisoning most of it; and Pound's affirmation of > WTTS lent Eliot confidence in preserving the most powerful movement of the > poem nearly whole. This is no more nor less than what a good editor does. > Thus, in my view, for Eliot to call Pound "the better maker" seems > hyperbole; Pound didn't make anything, he simply affirmed some passages and > suggested the elimination of others without substantially altering the meat > of the poem. (It should be noted that the phrase il miglior fabbro comes > from Dante's tribute in the Purgatorio to the Proven?al poet Arnaut Daniel, > as "the better craftsman of the mother tongue." Yet the original context > does not lessen the weight of gratitude implied by its use in Eliot's > dedication.) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 20:24:43 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 20:24:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> <027001c43616$e81bc150$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <409ECBCA.D6BE85A6@ix.netcom.com> Yes. There's a lot of 'by fiat' in your text. I'll stick with Kenner. Pound didn't 'make' words, but he made a form using Eliot's poem as raw material. CP "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > | Meanwhile, I tend to lean toward giving more credit to Pound for "A > | Wasteland" than you (I think) are, myself. But I admit that all I know > | about it is what I remember from biographies and literary history books, > not > | from any specialized texts like yours (which sounds interesting). For me, > | the number of details Pound helped with are minor besides his giving > Eliot, > | and modernism, the jump-cut--if he did. Did he? I mean, the extreme > | ellipses. > | > | --Bob G. > > Dear Bob, > > Thank you. I admire your honesty. > > "But I admit that all I know about it is what I remember from biographies > and literary history books, not from any specialized texts like yours (which > sounds interesting)." > > Still, I wish someone would read my essay. > > Here's the link: http://www.melicreview.com/archive/iss22/cechaffin.html > > Here's the relevant section for this discussion: > > II. A GAME OF MANUSCRIPT CHESS > > Eliot claimed ignorance of the whereabouts of the original manuscript of TWL > during his lifetime, though based on the correspondence included in its > publication by Valerie Eliot in 1971, this is hard to believe. Just as Eliot > forbade an official biography, it's doubtful he wanted the manuscript > discovered in his lifetime, for reasons already mentioned. > > The discovery of the manuscript further complicates any assessment of TWL. > It is bad enough to have to wade through the piles of criticism the poem has > generated since its appearance, worse to take on a draft of the poem with > three editors scribbling on it, namely Eliot, Pound, and Vivien (Eliot's > first wife). Any critic or scholar who now undertakes comment on TWL must > decide at the outset how far he is prepared to go in contemplating the > original draft vs. the final version. What other poem in literary history is > studied in this way? Do we search for Yeats' first draft of "The Second > Coming," or Frost's drafts of "Death of the Hired Man"? Obviously not. We > accept the final version of the authors as final. Yet with TWL comes the > baggage of its genesis, particularly since its inscription, "For Ezra Pound > il miglior fabbro [the better maker]," leads us to believe that Pound had a > weighty hand in its shaping. > > When I first read about the poem, my impression was that Eliot handed some > 1000 lines to Pound, and out of frustration or exhaustion, asked him to fix > it. This is not true. The manuscript demonstrates that Eliot did most of the > editing, taking some of Pound's suggestions (and most of Vivien's). After > the body of the poem in ms., Valerie Eliot saw fit to include a number of > fragments which Eliot had already decided against for inclusion in TWL, and > these make up the bulk of the discarded material associated with the > 1000-line legend. The fragments are interesting as an example of some of > Eliot's writing from the same period, but it is not as if Pound said, "Don't > include these." Eliot had already discarded them from the poem. > > Briefly, let's look at some of the points in which the ms. differs from the > published version. > > First, Eliot's original epigram for TWL was taken from Joseph Conrad's Heart > of Darkness and includes the famous exclamation, "The horror! The horror!" > (Eliot later used "Mr. Kurtz, he dead" as an epigram for "The Hollow Men.") > Before publication Eliot changed his epigram for TWL to a passage from > Petronius' Satyricon, a work, like Conrad's, also critical of a > disintegrating culture. Here's the quote: "For I saw with my own eyes that > Sibyl hanging in a jar at Cunae, and when the acolytes said, 'Sibyl, what do > you wish?' she replied, 'I wish to die'"-a fitting introduction to TWL. > > To proceed to the first section: "The Burial of the Dead" (TBOD) has a false > start of 54 lines which Eliot himself eliminated with a stroke of pencil to > arrive at the famous "April is the cruellest month" as a beginning. The > abandoned lines are a tedious recounting of the social life of the English > lower classes, the same sort of narrative we read in AGOC 139-72, from which > I've already quoted. To have started the poem on this note would have been > disastrous, not to mention boring, and Eliot was a good enough editor to > avoid this pitfall. Except for minor suggestions by Pound and Vivien, the > rest of TBOD does not markedly differ from the final version. > > Part II, "A Game of Chess," originally titled, "In the Cage," is little > altered in the final copy. Perhaps the best critical addition to this > section was made by Vivien, who inserted into the working class dialogue, > "What you get married for if you don't want to have children?" (164). > > It's in Part III, "The Fire Sermon" (TFS), that Pound first asserts himself, > essentially scrapping the first 42 lines, just as Eliot scrapped the opening > of TBOD. It's Pound's editing that helps Eliot begin on the right note, "The > river's tent is broken." Pound also scraps about 15 lines between lines 206 > and 207 of the final text, of which Eliot had already stricken five. > > The draft of Part IV, "Death by Water" (DBW), contains 92 lines, of which > Eliot included only the last ten, actually a English translation of part of > his earlier poem in French, "Dans Le Restaurant." The discarded lines > contain some lovely nautical imagery, through which Pound picked very > carefully, attempting to salvage them. However, it was Eliot who decided > only to include the short passage that remains. Perhaps the number of > deletions and suggestions by Pound for this section encouraged Eliot to > scrap nearly all of it, just as he had the beginning of TBOD, just as Pound > cut the opening of TFS. > > (I think it interesting to note that most poets capable of self-editing > (without which they would never be good, with some rare exceptions) more > frequently delete substantial material from the beginning of poems than > elsewhere. As an editor I sometimes say, after reading several stanzas of an > author's poem, "Here's where I think the poem begins." An early draft of a > poem, in my experience, often mimics starting a car on a winter's day; until > the engine starts humming, all the coughs and sputters are mere preparation > for the actual drive, and not to be retained, though near impossible to > avoid in the scheme of things.) > > Perhaps Pound's greatest contribution to the poem is his note above the last > section, "What the Thunder Said" (WTTS): OK from here on I think (TWL: MS p. > 71). This is great encouragement. > > Vivien's contributions are minor. She made few concrete suggestions, mostly > marginal comments, e.g. "wonderful," and her comments are almost exclusively > confined to AGOC. I mentioned one already. > > The lesson of the manuscript is that Pound was a good editor but should in > no way be mistaken as the co-author. Eliot eliminated the opening to TBOD; > Pound helped eliminate the opening of TFS; Pound's detailed criticism of DBW > likely resulted in Eliot jettisoning most of it; and Pound's affirmation of > WTTS lent Eliot confidence in preserving the most powerful movement of the > poem nearly whole. This is no more nor less than what a good editor does. > Thus, in my view, for Eliot to call Pound "the better maker" seems > hyperbole; Pound didn't make anything, he simply affirmed some passages and > suggested the elimination of others without substantially altering the meat > of the poem. (It should be noted that the phrase il miglior fabbro comes > from Dante's tribute in the Purgatorio to the Proven?al poet Arnaut Daniel, > as "the better craftsman of the mother tongue." Yet the original context > does not lessen the weight of gratitude implied by its use in Eliot's > dedication.) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 9 20:56:09 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:56:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> <027001c43616$e81bc150$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <036401c43629$970961b0$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Okay, I've now read enough of your essay (first two sections) to know I'll read it all--fairly soon, CE. I wish you hadn't called "The Wasteland" the most influential 20th-Century poem, though. . . . Your essay made be want to reread Eliot--and Pound. That, I think, is the highest compliment one could pay it. I did skim "The Wasteland" and a few other poems of Eliot's, and some of Pounds after reading it. WIll return to them. Your excerpt to New-Poetry didn't answer my question about where the use of extreme ellipses, or jump-cuts, began. Was it in "The Wasteland?" More in due course, I hope. --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 20:29:57 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 20:29:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Long poems References: Message-ID: <409ECD04.27DAD9D7@ix.netcom.com> Then the phrase almost works as intended. CP David Graham wrote: > Guess I find it hard to care greatly whether a given long poem is epic or > not. And even less does my pulse flutter at labels like "high modern." > > But I am interested in the various ways poets since oh, say Whitman, have > contrived to write long poems in the absence of the traditional frameworks. > It's a huge subject, obviously, and as a student once wrote, there are many > capillaries to the main channel. > > For my money *Paterson* is a brilliant failure, full of wonderful writing > but equally full of sludge, and structurally simply not coherent. Williams > was essentially a lyric poet, with little skill at more ambitious poetic > architecture. In his meditative mode he did much better with shorter > pieces, like the quite wonderful *Desert Music* and the flawed but beautiful > *Asphodel*. > > I essentially agree with Jarrell's assessment: *Paterson* began quite > wonderfully and then gradually petered out. WCW couldn't figure out how to > end it, or locate enough structural backbone to hold things together. > > And none ever wished it longer, I'm tempted to say, despite its many bright > spots. > > But for my money the great majority of long poems since "Song of Myself" are > failures, some more brilliant than others. Among other concerns, much was > sacrificed when poets decided not to employ narrative in their ambitious > longer works. > > Though I haven't yet given Walcott's *Omeros* a deep read, I think he has as > much chance as any contemporary poet of being remembered for his long works, > and part of the reason is his narrative skill. "The Schooner Flight* is not > epic in length, certainly, but may well be remembered as one of the notable > poems of our times, I'm guessing. And what do people think of *Another > Life*, his first foray onto the epic battlefield? > > Two booklength poems/sequences that remain very high on my list are Hayden > Carruth's *The Sleeping Beauty* and Fred Chappell's *Midquest*. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 20:32:33 2004 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 20:32:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> <409EC81D.6915C951@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <409ECDA0.89370765@ix.netcom.com> Could you quote these "short sketches" so that I can confirm that they do not appear in The Variorum? CP "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > went to the sanatorium, which are not considered part of the original ms., > though Valerie included them in the facsimile> > > What do you mean 'short sketches?' Since the 'Variorum' is a posthumous > publication it most likely would have to be Valerie Eliot who is suggesting that > the elision of the narrative?=short sketches material occurred before Eliot's > breakdown? First, this is unlikely because Pound received the transcript > including the narrative?=short sketches passages from Eliot while he was in > recuperation. Two, Valerie Eliot gives no indication of the notion that the > narrative= short sketches? passages had been dropped in advance and no > indication that Pound's role in forming the poem should be diminished from te > record compiled by Kenner et al. Three, if Pound got 'em they had at some level > been reinstated into the manuscript because it is documented in the Variorum and > elsewhere it was Pound who red pencilled them while Eliot was in the sanitorium. > > If these are the passages you are referring to since they were abandoned, why is > the 'abandonment' attributed to E.P. in the Variorum e.g. designated with the > red markings? If indeed these alterations were accepted by Eliot, wouldn't that > bear up the notion of Pound and Eliot scholars that Pound's suggestions took an > essentially narrative, personal poem and provided us with the modernist > apocalyptic collage we now read? Isn't it a better poem without the narrative > reminiscences--in fact a great one? And did this not lead to Eliot's comment > that Pound was "the better maker" e.g. the poet, or was Possum just bein' > polite? > > I don't want to disabuse you of your notions. After all you must know better > than Eliot that Pound as a result of his input on the Wasteland was not in the > Possum's estimation 'the better maker.' (Makes no sense, right?) If you can one > up Eliot and Pound with such ease, what chance do mere mortals like Hugh Kenner > have, much less me? CP > > "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > > > Err... after all the short sketches were abandoned in England before Eliot > > went to the sanatorium, which are not considered part of the original ms., > > though Valerie included them in the facsimile-- > > > > Pound helped with II and III a bit, Eliot did most of the work on I, IV, and > > V. And Pound writes that famous, "OK from here, I guess" before section V. > > He should have edited III a great deal more if he wanted the poem to > > succeed, and II as well, where much repetitive sexual sterility is played > > and replayed, and the Songs of the Thames Daughters is a rather weak ending > > to III, IMHO. > > > > Obviously you are too well-informed to read my little bit of research. > > > > Curioser and curioser. > > > > | Dear CE Chaffin, > > | > > | I 'looked at' the Variorum when it first came out and am very familiar > > with it. > > | Those many corrcetions, suggestions and elisions are Pounds!!!!!!! > > > > There are Eliot's, Pound's and Vivien's notes. > > > > Eliot does the lion's share of revision. > > > > Check the ms. Familiarity breeds contempt for another's acquaintance with > > the same. > > > > | > > | Ergo, as Pound might have said the rest of what you say is, err[or], > > "dross." > > | 12,000 words of it apparently. CP > > > > Firing blanks again. Makes me wonder if you read anything except la > > biblioteca de su mente proprio. > > > > | > > | And that was the point as in inclusive. I wouldn't > > get so > > | high and mighty after you've written a twelve thousand, read 12000 word > > essay on > > | Eliot's Wasteland and missed Pound's pivotal role in it e.g. the birth of > > the > > | Modernist poem. ERRRRR!!!!!! Just ask around. > > > > Ask around? See, now you've made the same misguided point three times. I > > don't ask around. I read. > > > > And apparently you are not a jazz musician nor have you studied physics, not > > to mention medicine, though you feel qualified, apparently, to bloviate > > about any discipline you please, including High Modernism, where your > > mistakes about Eliot make me suspect the rest of your opinions. > > > > Although I admire your panache and your creative prose style, I must say > > your substance does not impress me. > > > > Folks like Wendy remind me of the larger framework of the Bhagavada-Gita, > > for instance, which I find helpful. > > > > Or those who've actually waded through Paterson and reported. > > > > Many here instruct me and I am happy to learn. > > > > Does your High Modern Eclectic Soupology grant you the right to be > > Humpty-Dumpty? > > > > Reason and rant, credo or cant. > > > > I have been to your website and will pursue further. Unlike err... some, I > > intend to read what you're about and give you a fair shake. > > > > --CE > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From elemenope at icubed.com Sun May 9 09:30:24 2004 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 21:30:24 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor (C. E. Chaffin) In-Reply-To: <200405100025.i4A0P2XE008444@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200405100025.i4A0P2XE008444@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I've always had the sense, intuitive, supported by no evidence, that the "For Ezra Pound il miglior fabbro [the better maker]," was generated out of Pound's self presentation in Eliot's society. These fellows were the heaviest of hitters, but E.P. had no problem telling whoever could listen this was so. By pulling out of his doffed hat this encomium Eliot insures the stamp of his own singularity by acknowledging the potent ego and magic in his life of his friend and rival. Eliot bows with an unequalled flourish. Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions -- From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 9 22:38:31 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 21:38:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Charles Simic Message-ID: 66 years old today. . . . Grayheaded Schoolchildren Old men have bad dreams, So they sleep little. They walk on bare feet Without turning on the lights, Or they stand leaning On gloomy furniture Listening to their hearts beat. The one window across the room Is black like a blackboard. Every old man is alone In this classroom, squinting At that fine chalk line That divides being-here From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 10 08:12:57 2004 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:12:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c43688$251b3a10$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: The Boise Renaissance: Catherine Wagner's Macular Hole -- When Jack Spicer meets Sylvia Plath The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar John Taggart's Pastorelles - "roots work" from a master The infinite divisibility of a notebook in a pocket in a washing machine Tom Orange on the richness of post-avant poetics & the problems of for whom to write & who to read Mytili Jagannathan on the "ransom of unkept things" (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) B as in Baseball: Bob Perelman (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Performing punctuation by hand - Susan Stewart (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) A rock lyric from Paul Muldoon (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) The alphabet as leveler or as mode of permission - the implications of the Rosenbach Alphabet http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From cc at opus0.com Mon May 10 13:24:11 2004 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 10:24:11 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. In-Reply-To: <200404241849.i3OIn3XE006545@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Sorry for the delay in responding CE -- I've wanted to give this adequate thought & and have been too busy! > From: "C. E. Chaffin" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Thank you, Crisman, re: Graham > Aye, there's the rub. Graham can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. This is commendable, I think, to be able to show what is beautiful in the common, or what is eternal in the corruptible. To see a World in a Grain of Sand, etc. Perhaps you are objecting to the sleight-of-hand-- but I believe that is in the nature of language, our medium (as I will try to explain further below). [I see now on re-reading that I've done nothing of the sort.] > I, unlike you, want to see the sow's ear, not witness the endless corollaries > language can generate about a sow's ear. But language can never show you the sow's ear, only words referring to concepts about the sow's ear. > When poetry becomes about language (and I know this a slightly archaic and conservative opinion), > and is no longer about what is, or _dass Ding an Sich_, I read Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and confess I understood almost none of it. I read it not out of compulsion but a genuine desire to understand--and to be able to say I read it (not the most pure of motives... I was writing my thesis for a degree in Semiotics, and my advisor said 'Kant is missing from your bibliography...'). Maybe I'll go back to it someday. As a result, I don't really know what is the 'thing in itself' in Kant. If it is what we call 'the real world' (unpremeditated) then I have a doorway. A long and slippery slope in the history of philosophy. Is the real world the play of shadows on the cave wall? Or the prison house of language? But there are some points along the slope where I find some comfort, such as Peircean pragmatism http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/PeircePr.htm and Greimasian semiotics http://www.sla.purdue.edu/academic/engl/theory/narratology/modules/greimaspl otmainframe.html though these are not at all alike: Peirce aims to make language clear and expressive of scientifically testable ideas; Greimas (in his Dictionary) tries to make a set of terminologies to describe text objects. [Sorry didn't mean to digress so far...] What I derive from my feeble understanding of the discussion is that 1. we know enough about the world to be able to survive in it; 2. our understanding of the world is infused with language: both in expression, but even before in our initial comprehension and separation of objects one from another is a fundamentally linguistic process. Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the philosophical discussion agrees that this simply isn't true. > I feel it is ultimately degenerative-- a detour in the history of English verse. Is Shakespeare a detour? Certainly, for me anyway, all the interest in his plays is in the language. I really don't care much about the silly pretexts for action. --an opinion lifted from DH Lawrence. > Thus I do not think Graham will be remembered except as an oddity, Johnson said the same of Laurence Sterne, for different reasons. > and much of this type of poetry, which even our latest issue of Melic > www.melicreview.com/current/ features under the independent aegis of our poetry editor, I think shall > circle the eddies of a shallow pool of Post-Modern eccentricity in the future. For the record, here's > an excerpt from my latest essay on "The Hollow Men" (in our latest issue, link above): >... > "In selecting two quotes from "Logopoetry II" to illustrate my dilemma, > Eliot is hardly the first poet who comes to mind, as all his work through > "Ash Wednesday" (AW) rarely conforms to my ideal: I read your essay on Hollow Men--thanks, very interesting and nlightening. --though as you say, the poem is anything but direct. > I have written much on this subject if a dissenting view interests you. > Then there's not arguing about taste. You like Graham, and I hope no one > takes that from you, and I doubt they can. ...you must mean 'no accounting for taste'? There's plenty of arguing (seems to me) just that no one ever really gets down to why they like something. > "My antidote for this [the declining popularity of poetry and fear of > its academic mystique] is, quite simply, that poetry should be > intelligible > without footnotes, explanations of technique or other > intermediary bells and > whistles." But it's possible that readers won't come back to poetry no matter how direct it is. Isn't this is part of a movement of culture toward the visual, the salacious? Should poetry compete? Isn't that a kind of debasement of self-expression? Shouldn't we thank the academy for keeping an ancient tradition alive? for providing a place where one is encouraged to expand attention beyond 30-seconds shown to be effective in PR-led research in focus groups? (rhetoric, sorry ;) But it seems the project of logopoetry is based on a market condition. > "The first concern of logopoetry is that art be intelligible. Is nature intelligible? Is God? How many of their secrets do they give up on first perusal? > By this I mean a poem should be comprehensible enough on first reading to yield a > sense. Or at least a desire to reread to divine the sense. > Practically, this means that after one reading the audience should be > able to say, 'The poem was about this or that" and have some general agreement.'" But surely you don't require all poetry to adhere to this focus-group-like definition? Otherwise, aren't you simply limiting what you'll allow yourself to like? > Later, in "Logopoetry IV," I expanded my definition: > > "I recently saw the need to raise the threshold for > logopoetry, that is > to say, make room for the secondary and tertiary cognition many pieces > require. This need for widening of the definition of intelligibility (the > first principle of logopoetry) was triggered by a remark from Mark Strand, > writing as an editor: 'In cases where I had to choose from many > poems of the > same length, as in the sonnet sequence of Spenser or Shakespeare, > or in the > poems of Emily Dickinson, it was difficult, and the determining factor > became the relative accessibility of the particular poem on a first or > second reading'" (Preface to the Golden Ecco Anthology, 100 Great Poems of > the English Language, edited by Mark Strand)." But being an editor and being a poet are pretty different capacities, aren't they? Would Strand set out to write a poem with this same constraint? If so, I am sorry (for him). > Obviously these opinions of mine are longstanding. I prefer the > complexity of Donne, who can be understood but also yields many > "koans," to the expansive meditations of Graham, for instance. Yes Donne is spectacular. But liking one does not diminish the other, right? Liking Whitman wouldn't make one conclude that Dickinson should have gotten out of her room and rambled around the countryside. [Please forgive the rhetorical nature of this remark and extract the sense. hohoho!] > And I never tire of "The > Rime of the Ancient Mariner" or "Prufrock," which I think the two greatest > poems in the language. Prufrock moves me, so does the Mariner, so does > Dante's pilgrim, so does Homer's voice and the voice of David in > the Psalms. > But the voice of Graham, like so much I read nowadays, is more about the > voice itself, the process of invention, while reality and the four great > themes of poetry (Love, Death (including love lost), Nature and God) are > peripheral at best in any _direct_ connection with the reader. But these themes are not great in themselves -- only in the lives of the people and the language (the voice, the invention) of great writers. Yes? > I love the lucidity of Han Shan and Li Po, I plead ignorance... > the same kind of crystal > clarity I find in Eliot and others. I suppose all my ramblings and essays > point to one end, which is always present: language as A means of > communication vs. language for the sake of language. Art for > art's sake vs. > art as a medium that connects us with the world, each other, and the > artist's vision. I believe that any move to make art useful is deprecatory. (including 'to connect...') Only when it's allowed to be completely useless is it free to do what it needs to do. > The two can, of course, co-exist, but most contemporary > work I read leans a little too much towards the latter, the dazzle of > language--- as if reality weren't enough-- But if you believe that reality is inaccessible to us EXCEPT through language (which poetry takes, I believe, as a self-imposed limitation), then there is no conflict. > with exceptions of course, like > Levine, whose diction and music is nevertheless inferior to Graham's and > Ashbery's. Agree. > Substance over form if it comes to that. I think the > besetting error of > our time, as typified by Ashbery late works and also Graham, is a > pre-occupation with form. If there's nothing new to say, well, > we knew that > already from the last chapter of Ecclesiastes. To take exception to the great old preacher... There is a sense in which everything now is new. For example, we know we aren't really under the sun at all. > But I think the important > themes can be said in a new and arresting way without resorting to the > ratiocination of self-indulgent diction-meisters who keep > repeating tropes, > over and over, each a little different, as they try to approach the > ineffable--- Yes, I know what you mean and there is something tiresome about that, I think too. > I think that's the emperor's clothes, the fashion, and to dig > through another's veils in order to connect to one true imparted emotion , > or several, seems to me besides the point. I'm not talking about the > "naked" poetry of Bukowski or slam-world, of course, but say, the > clarity of > Strand's earlier work. The magic. I'm surprised you like Strand so much. A probably incorrect intuition. He seems to be a bit of a nihilist. (Or inversalist.) I would guess that you are not. But what do I know. > Magic that transports me yet magic I can > understand at more than a presuppositional level. I want to be touched. > Does this make me a Philistine? Seems like I am nowadays. I'd say you're an American. > But I'll take Blake's "Songs of Innocence and Experience" over > everything Graham's written. Same could be said by most people of most poets. Yet it does not diminish them or raise Blake one iota. > Jane Kenyon, among others. Plead ignorance -- will read. > Thanks again for your help in helping me try to appreciate Graham! With your blessing, I'll keep trying. > Thine, > > CE Nay, thine! Cc From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 10 19:14:33 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 19:14:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: Message-ID: <014c01c436e4$90c2b7a0$21efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> >Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on > this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the philosophical > discussion agrees that this simply isn't true. My family had a dog named Gigi. I often played with her. When I said, "ball," she'd go fetch her ball and bring it to me. What was her problem? --Bob G. From bardo at optonline.net Mon May 10 20:13:45 2004 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:13:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: <014c01c436e4$90c2b7a0$21efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001301c436ec$d2fe4f00$6d94c044@MULDER> Not a philosopher, Bob. ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. > >Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on > > this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the > philosophical > > discussion agrees that this simply isn't true. > > My family had a dog named Gigi. I often played with her. When I said, > "ball," she'd go fetch her ball and bring it to me. What was her problem? > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 10 20:26:30 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:26:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: <014c01c436e4$90c2b7a0$21efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001301c436ec$d2fe4f00$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <017401c436ee$9d1a0120$21efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > >Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on > > > this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the > > philosophical > > > discussion agrees that this simply isn't true. > > > > My family had a dog named Gigi. I often played with her. When I said, > > "ball," she'd go fetch her ball and bring it to me. What was her problem? > > > > --Bob G. > > > Not a philosopher, Bob. > > ~ Dan But she was pretty smart. . . . You know, Dan, on reflection, I think what it was, was she was humoring me. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 10 20:57:42 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:57:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. Message-ID: > >>Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on > >>>this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the > >>philosophical > >>>discussion agrees that this simply isn't true. > This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with bated breath for "the voice of things." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Mon May 10 21:10:28 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:10:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: Message-ID: >>Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on>>>this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the >>philosophical >>>discussion agrees that this simply isn't true<< This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with bated breath for "the voice of things." Finnegan **************** It's sweet quotes like yours, Finnegan, that made me glad I joined this list. And I ain't just suckin' up to da moderator. "No ideas but in things." --WCM "Poetry is metaphor." --RF "Poetry is language distilled into its most powerful form." --CE From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue May 11 07:14:20 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:14:20 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: Message-ID: <007801c43749$1bd80a20$d6607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> Agreed on the hint for dDah moderator, and if you wish Chaffin there is some more here: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=287 Chirrup sun is out after what was it, centuries, millennia? Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome "We know that under a revealed image there is another one more faithful to reality, and under that one there is another one, and again another one under the latter. To the true image of that absolute, mysterious reality that no one will ever see. Or maybe to the scanning of any image of whatever reality." Michelangelo Antonioni, 1964 From: "C. E. Chaffin" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 3:10 AM > >>Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on>>>this list) that > words refer to things-- almost everyone in the >>philosophical >>>discussion > agrees that this simply isn't true<< > > > > This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words > are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with > bated breath for "the voice of things." > Finnegan > > > **************** > > It's sweet quotes like yours, Finnegan, that made me glad I joined this > list. > > And I ain't just suckin' up to da moderator. > > > "No ideas but in things." --WCM > > "Poetry is metaphor." --RF > > "Poetry is language distilled into its most powerful form." > > > --CE > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue May 11 10:11:25 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:11:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I stand in my vocabulary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/10/04 7:57 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: >>Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on >>>this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the >>philosophical >>>discussion agrees that this simply isn't true. This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with bated breath for "the voice of things." Finnegan ============================== Which reminds me of my favorite Graham poem (no, not *her*! . . . and not me, either). Love the line "I stand in my vocabulary. . . ." A Note to the Difficult One This morning I am ready if you are, To hear you speaking in your new language. I think I am beginning to have nearly A way of writing down what it is I think You say. You enunciate very clearly Terrible words always just beyond me. I stand in my vocabulary looking out Through my window of fine water ready To translate natural occurrences Into something beyond any idea Of pleasure. The wisps of April fly With light messages to the lonely. This morning I am ready if you are To speak. The early quick rains Of Spring are drenching the window-glass. Here in my words looking out I see your face speaking flying In a cloud wanting to say something. --W. S. Graham, IMPLEMENTS IN THEIR PLACES (1977) ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 11 11:01:20 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:01:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by folks named Graham(e) References: Message-ID: <001101c43768$d2d9c4b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> This one comes replete with a critique and defense of poets and poetry. The Rat was sitting on the river bank, singing a little song. He had just composed it himself, so he was very taken up with it, and would not pay proper attention to Mole or anything else. Since early morning he had been swimming in the river, in company with his friends the ducks. And when the ducks stood on their heads suddenly, as ducks will, he would dive down and tickle their necks, just under where their chins would be if ducks had chins, till they were forced to come to the surface again in a hurry, spluttering and angry and shaking their feathers at him, for it is impossible to say quite ALL you feel when your head is under water. At last they implored him to go away and attend to his own affairs and leave them to mind theirs. So the Rat went away, and sat on the river bank in the sun, and made up a song about them, which he called `DUCKS' DITTY.' All along the backwater, Through the rushes tall, Ducks are a-dabbling, Up tails all! Ducks' tails, drakes' tails, Yellow feet a-quiver, Yellow bills all out of sight Busy in the river! Slushy green undergrowth Where the roach swim-- Here we keep our larder, Cool and full and dim. Everyone for what he likes! WE like to be Heads down, tails up, Dabbling free! High in the blue above Swifts whirl and call-- WE are down a-dabbling Up tails all! `I don't know that I think so VERY much of that little song, Rat,' observed the Mole cautiously. He was no poet himself and didn't care who knew it; and he had a candid nature. `Nor don't the ducks neither,' replied the Rat cheerfully. `They say, "WHY can't fellows be allowed to do what they like WHEN they like and AS they like, instead of other fellows sitting on banks and watching them all the time and making remarks and poetry and things about them? What NONSENSE it all is!" That's what the ducks say.' `So it is, so it is,' said the Mole, with great heartiness. `No, it isn't!' cried the Rat indignantly. `Well then, it isn't, it isn't,' replied the Mole soothingly. --Kenneth Grahame, "The Wind in the Willows" ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:11 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] I stand in my vocabulary > on 5/10/04 7:57 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > >>Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on > >>>this list) that words refer to things-- almost everyone in the > >>philosophical > >>>discussion agrees that this simply isn't true. > > > This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words > are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with > bated breath for "the voice of things." > Finnegan > > ============================== > > Which reminds me of my favorite Graham poem (no, not *her*! . . . and not > me, either). > > Love the line "I stand in my vocabulary. . . ." > > > A Note to the Difficult One > > This morning I am ready if you are, > To hear you speaking in your new language. > I think I am beginning to have nearly > A way of writing down what it is I think > You say. You enunciate very clearly > Terrible words always just beyond me. > > I stand in my vocabulary looking out > Through my window of fine water ready > To translate natural occurrences > Into something beyond any idea > Of pleasure. The wisps of April fly > With light messages to the lonely. > > This morning I am ready if you are > To speak. The early quick rains > Of Spring are drenching the window-glass. > Here in my words looking out > I see your face speaking flying > In a cloud wanting to say something. > > --W. S. Graham, IMPLEMENTS IN THEIR PLACES (1977) > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue May 11 15:22:32 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:22:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/10/04 8:10 PM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote: >>> Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on>>>this list) that > words refer to things-- almost everyone in the >>philosophical >>>discussion > agrees that this simply isn't true<< > > > > This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words > are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with > bated breath for "the voice of things." > Finnegan To the Breach I If words are, as you say, mere signifiers divorced from what they vainly signify, what can your own words do but prove to us the self-defeating nature of your logic, for words will conjure worlds, though thought be vexed to catch their mundane magic at the trick. II These words are signified As well as signifiers-- Tell this to Cretans who Declare all Cretans liars. III All language has been centered on the phallus, Cry critics, stretching mother tongues to tell us. Erase the text, and explicate the margin, Urge swollen texts, in pages black with jargon. Unwrite the written. Level what?s erect. To make the best connections, disconnect. Paul Lake > > > **************** > > It's sweet quotes like yours, Finnegan, that made me glad I joined this > list. > > And I ain't just suckin' up to da moderator. > > > "No ideas but in things." --WCM > > "Poetry is metaphor." --RF > > "Poetry is language distilled into its most powerful form." > > > --CE > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue May 11 15:45:43 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:45:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Epistemology Message-ID: Epistemology I Kick at the rock, Sam Johnson, break your bones: But cloudy, cloudy is the stuff of stones. II We milk the cow of the world, and as we do We whisper in her ear, "You are not true." --Richard Wilbur ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From mandolin at mac.com Tue May 11 16:01:45 2004 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:01:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. Message-ID: <221128.1084305705290.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, May 11, 2004, at 03:22PM, Paul Lake wrote: > >on 5/10/04 8:10 PM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote: > >>>> Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on>>>this list) that >> words refer to things-- almost everyone in the >>philosophical >>>discussion >> agrees that this simply isn't true<< >> >> >> >> This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words >> are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with >> bated breath for "the voice of things." >> Finnegan > > > To the Breach > > > > I > > >If words are, as you say, mere signifiers >divorced from what they vainly signify, >what can your own words do but prove to us >the self-defeating nature of your logic, >for words will conjure worlds, though thought be vexed >to catch their mundane magic at the trick. > > > > II > >These words are signified >As well as signifiers-- >Tell this to Cretans who >Declare all Cretans liars. > > > > III > > >All language has been centered on the phallus, >Cry critics, stretching mother tongues to tell us. > >Erase the text, and explicate the margin, >Urge swollen texts, in pages black with jargon. > >Unwrite the written. Level what?s erect. >To make the best connections, disconnect. > > > >Paul Lake > > > Huzzah! ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 11 20:25:34 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:25:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler's Jefferson Lecture Message-ID: <1cb.20a0d1ce.2dd2c8fe@aol.com> Helen Vendler and read her 2004 Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities http://www.neh.gov/whoweare/vendler/index.html http://www.neh.gov/whoweare/vendler/lecture.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 11 20:43:36 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:43:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Kit Listings Message-ID: <192.29753c91.2dd2cd38@aol.com> Date:? ? Mon, 10 May 2004 09:57:20 +0100 From:? ? Jim Bennett Subject: Poetry Kit Listings After Ted Slade's death in January I was asked by his family to take over the Poetry Kit site (poetrykit.org) and keep it running.as he would have intended. I am pleased to say that Poetry Kit is still going strong and is open for business.? I would like to ensure that all events of interest to the poetry community are listed - so please - if you have any events, readings, conferences which you would like listed please let me have the detains as early as possible for inclusion in the Poetry Kit pages. We are getting over 2000 hits per day on average so clearly it is an opportunity to publicise events for free to a large readership. Jim Bennett poetrykit.org LINKS ___________________________________________________ Jim Bennett's new poetry collection "The Man Who Tried to Hug Clouds" pub April 2004 by Bluechrome read about it or order from; http://www.bluechrome.co.uk/ POETRY KIT - Voted Poetry Super-Highway best resource 2001 http://www.poetrykit.org/ PK On-line Poetry Workshop http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/9952/pklist.htm JIM BENNETT - Publisher's site http://jimbennett.port5.com/ Some songs at; http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/jimbennettmusic.htm An interview at; http://www.poetrykit.org/iv00/bennett.htm Poems http://www.poetrykit.org/magazine/poems4.htm#bennett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Tue May 11 23:52:43 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:52:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: Message-ID: Dear Paul, Excellent poem. The spelling of "Cretans" adds to the labyrinth, but one can't help thinking of hypothyroid victims as well, notably Swiss dwarfs before Switzerland discovered iodine. Kudos, CE | | | To the Breach | | | | I | | | If words are, as you say, mere signifiers | divorced from what they vainly signify, | what can your own words do but prove to us | the self-defeating nature of your logic, | for words will conjure worlds, though thought be vexed | to catch their mundane magic at the trick. | | | | II | | These words are signified | As well as signifiers-- | Tell this to Cretans who | Declare all Cretans liars. | | | | III | | | All language has been centered on the phallus, | Cry critics, stretching mother tongues to tell us. | | Erase the text, and explicate the margin, | Urge swollen texts, in pages black with jargon. | | Unwrite the written. Level what?s erect. | To make the best connections, disconnect. | | | | Paul Lake | | | | | | > | > | > **************** | > | > It's sweet quotes like yours, Finnegan, that made me glad I joined this | > list. | > | > And I ain't just suckin' up to da moderator. | > | > | > "No ideas but in things." --WCM | > | > "Poetry is metaphor." --RF | > | > "Poetry is language distilled into its most powerful form." | > | > | > --CE | > _______________________________________________ | > New-Poetry mailing list | > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | > --- | > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] | > | > | | --- | [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 12 09:24:10 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:24:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Clark Coolidge, "The Battle for the Cotton Reserves" Message-ID: The Battle for the Cotton Reserves Trucked his way through a door and grasped glass the colonel is a maniac I'm a store-bought flake jackass runs me in blue Indians hate illuminated buttons lace-drawn windows oubliettes get off my plush domestic life even on the frontier is boring and repetitive the copse is laden with sand duration I drunk I lie wash my teeth with radioactive clams actor, our lives can't be bought this cheap and now nothing is left but the fire fossils that's a good shine when do I leave? Paladin commences the Dude abides including President Dent I lived in the house with the back of the battle miniaturized there are ores there scoop the love from your innards late of the Big Sioux Lull --Clark Coolidge fr. Far Out West [New York: Adventures in Poetry, 2001] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Cadaly at aol.com Wed May 12 15:39:01 2004 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:39:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] spare room reading series Message-ID: <76F08F06.2FB226AF.00045B92@aol.com> SPARE ROOM presents Catherine Daly and Chris Piuma Sunday May 16, 7:30 pm Mountain Writers Center, 3624 SE Milwaukie Ave. Portland, Or Suggested Donation $5 for more information, call the Spare Room Dial-A-Poem line at 503-236-0867 or email spareroom at flim.com And coming soon to a reading series near you: Paul Dutton w/improvising musicians (thanks to Various Artists); John and Roberta Olsen; Nathaniel Tarn & Janet Rodney; the second Spare Room Sound Poetry Festival, Charles Alexander, and more! Summer schedule available soon at www.flim.com/spareroom ====================================================== Catherine Daly attended college in Hartford and graduate school in New York, where she lived on every street from 116th to110th, then moved skip stops down the upper west side. She has worked as a technical architect and an engineer supporting the space shuttle orbiter, and has consulted to investment banks on, among other things, disaster recovery. This, unfortunately, impacts her poetry, which moves beyond the telephone to wireless in the giant book DaDaDa (Salt Publishing, 2003) and the forthcoming love poems, Locket (Tupelo Press, 2004). She lives in Los Angeles. Chris Piuma has edited the online quasi-literary journal flim (flim.com) for many years. His band, the Minor Thirds, played a show in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan not long ago. He has been published in assorted venues, the likes of which you won't soon find elsewhere. He has bought board games in moonlit park entrances from dealers in nondescript green cars. There might be new books and recordings of his poetry. Catherine Daly Two poems from In Media Res Dissolve and Blur ============ Mine / heart free. Your service too constant. Believing in you, draining, retaining nil, abandoning myself, I was your slave, but goodbye, I'm leaving you, thank god. Mine h fffffree. ssssserviccccce conssssstant draining, retaining messssselfffff sssssslave good bye, you, Start Walking ============ Rocks (know how) speak about it. Even rocks beneath my feet do it. speak feet Chris Piuma The Old City ============ Where are the fourteen-year-old girls of my youth? Where are my chariots of desire? Why can't I drink all the Kool-Aid in the house? Who put this here? Why did I do that? When did all these ants start crawling about here? Who did you give the money to? What was I going to tell you? Where were you last night? What should I have told that reporter, then? Who knows what would make you happy. Why did I do all that? When did all these ants learn to make money at home? Who did you crawl off with? From cc at opus0.com Wed May 12 17:25:39 2004 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 14:25:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Epistemology In-Reply-To: <200405121601.i4CG14XE002180@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] Epistemology > Epistemology > > I > Kick at the rock, Sam Johnson, break your bones: > But cloudy, cloudy is the stuff of stones. > > II > We milk the cow of the world, and as we do > We whisper in her ear, "You are not true." > > --Richard Wilbur Accurate, succinct depiction of the quandary of thinking too much -- and it's funny! Thanks David, and cheers for Mr. Wilbur. From mandolin at mac.com Wed May 12 21:22:17 2004 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:22:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 10, 2004, at 1:24 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > But language can never show you the sow's ear, only words referring to > concepts about the sow's ear. But it may get nearly as close to showing that sow's ear as seeing one does. A while ago while ago Human Nature Daily ( ) lnked to these two pieces on language and the brain: http://www.sciencenews.org/20040207/fob2.asp and http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1137515,00.html . The first reports that the motor cortex of readers is involved in the interpretation of action verbs, which literally get the blood flowing, involving more parts of the brain: " For instance, reading the word lick triggers pronounced blood flow in sites of the motor cortex associated with tongue and mouth movements.? 'Brain areas that are used to perform an action are also needed to comprehend words related to that action,' Victor de Lafuente and Ranulfo Romo of Mexico's National Autonomous University in Mexico City comment in an editorial in the [Jan. 22 Neuron]. 'Remarkably, just the reading of feet-related action words such as dance makes [the motor cortex] move its '"feet."'" The second is a more general review of recent work, but this passage got my attention: "Using fMRI Dr [Sophie] Scott has shown that the brain takes speech and separates it into words and "melody" - the varying intonation in speech that reveals mood, gender and so on. Her studies suggest words are then shunted over to the left temporal lobe for processing, while the melody is channelled to the right side of the brain, a region more stimulated by music." That last may suggest a mechanism for the action of meter (or other rhythmic devices). From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Wed May 12 23:31:23 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:31:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: Message-ID: Wonderful, Michael. Yet no surprise. Since Sperry's research on the bicameral brain and Penfield's neurotactical testing of the brain with electrodes, evoking kinesthetic memories-- we know that we are as primitive as ever... yet, as in the Genesis story, it is language that separates us from beasts... not to mention self-consciousness... then what separation we do achieve is likewise dependent on biochemical (bestial?) functions. Symbolic logic? Yes, if one feels nothing. Otherwise it is contaminated by our animal nature. Competition against other symbolic logicians? Aye, there's the rub. --CE p.s. In my _logopoetry_ essays I accommodate the first order functions of the right hemisphere's apperception and the left hemisphere's (esp. temporal lobe) translation into words. Plato vs. Aristotle, old as time. Yes, Virginia, there is a sow's ear. At least a simulacrum closer than the verse of Jorie Graham. Ah, just read Blake's "London." But I would not recommend CP's excerpt from his "Eschatology...." published as "a contributing editor" at FP. It's bloviation comprised of obvious sources with no redeeming lyricism. Be sure to read up on "Typhus" first. I guess this is what passes for High Modernism these days: "Thoughts of a dry brain in a dry season." Then who publishes their own verse in an e-zine litmag? Only a contributing editor, I guess. | On May 10, 2004, at 1:24 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: | | > But language can never show you the sow's ear, only words referring to | > concepts about the sow's ear. | | But it may get nearly as close to showing that sow's ear as seeing one | does. | | A while ago while ago Human Nature Daily ( ) lnked to these two pieces | on language and the brain: | http://www.sciencenews.org/20040207/fob2.asp and | http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1137515,00.html . | | The first reports that the motor cortex of readers is involved in the | interpretation of action verbs, which literally get the blood flowing, | involving more parts of the brain: | " For instance, reading the word lick triggers pronounced blood flow in | sites of the motor cortex associated with tongue and mouth movements.? | 'Brain areas that are used to perform an action are also needed to | comprehend words related to that action,' Victor de Lafuente and | Ranulfo Romo of Mexico's National Autonomous University in Mexico City | comment in an editorial in the [Jan. 22 Neuron]. 'Remarkably, just the | reading of feet-related action words such as dance makes [the motor | cortex] move its '"feet."'" | | The second is a more general review of recent work, but this passage | got my attention: | "Using fMRI Dr [Sophie] Scott has shown that the brain takes speech | and separates it into words and "melody" - the varying intonation in | speech that reveals mood, gender and so on. Her studies suggest words | are then shunted over to the left temporal lobe for processing, while | the melody is channelled to the right side of the brain, a region more | stimulated by music." | | That last may suggest a mechanism for the action of meter (or other | rhythmic devices). From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 13 06:15:02 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 06:15:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: Message-ID: <005301c438d3$29176330$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > But language can never show you the sow's ear, only words referring to > > concepts about the sow's ear. > > But it may get nearly as close to showing that sow's ear as seeing one > does. In my theory of psychology, a word directly connects to the same brain-cells activated by any experience of the thing the word denotes--i.e., visual, olfactory, auditory, tactile. The word will probably also connect to concepts about the thing it denotes. And emotions about that thing. I consider the idea that words don't refer to things completely insane. > A while ago while ago Human Nature Daily ( ) lnked to these two pieces > on language and the brain: > http://www.sciencenews.org/20040207/fob2.asp and > http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1137515,00.html . > > The first reports that the motor cortex of readers is involved in the > interpretation of action verbs, which literally get the blood flowing, > involving more parts of the brain: > " For instance, reading the word lick triggers pronounced blood flow in > sites of the motor cortex associated with tongue and mouth movements.? > 'Brain areas that are used to perform an action are also needed to > comprehend words related to that action,' Victor de Lafuente and > Ranulfo Romo of Mexico's National Autonomous University in Mexico City > comment in an editorial in the [Jan. 22 Neuron]. Needed? I doubt it. 'Remarkably, just the > reading of feet-related action words such as dance makes [the motor > cortex] move its '"feet."'" Not very remarkable to me inasmuch as my theory of psychology has assumed that for thirty years. > The second is a more general review of recent work, but this passage > got my attention: > "Using fMRI Dr [Sophie] Scott has shown that the brain takes speech > and separates it into words and "melody" - the varying intonation in > speech that reveals mood, gender and so on. Her studies suggest words > are then shunted over to the left temporal lobe for processing, while > the melody is channelled to the right side of the brain, a region more > stimulated by music." > > That last may suggest a mechanism for the action of meter (or other > rhythmic devices). Right. An auditory section of the brain. How could anyone not think such a thing existed, and had to do with rhythm, among other auditory qualities? --Bob G., as easily annoyed by the mainstream in psychology as by the mainstream in poetry. From barry.spacks at verizon.net Thu May 13 12:39:14 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:39:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A curious silence In-Reply-To: <200405060040.i460e3XE000941@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040513093129.02d245a0@incoming.verizon.net> Query: have there been no postings here since 5/5, or have I fallen off the edge of the cyber-world? Barry Praising is what matters! He [Orpheus] was summoned for that, and came to us like the ore from a stone's silence. His mortal heart presses out a deathless, inexhaustible wine. --from #7 in the 1st series of THE SONNETS TO ORPHEUS, Rainer Maria Rilke, February 1922, Stephen Mitchell translation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 13 12:38:07 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 11:38:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A curious silence References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040513093129.02d245a0@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: Err, Barry, You fell off. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Spacks To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:39 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] A curious silence Query: have there been no postings here since 5/5, or have I fallen off the edge of the cyber-world? Barry Praising is what matters! He [Orpheus] was summoned for that, and came to us like the ore from a stone's silence. His mortal heart presses out a deathless, inexhaustible wine. --from #7 in the 1st series of THE SONNETS TO ORPHEUS, Rainer Maria Rilke, February 1922, Stephen Mitchell translation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 13 13:19:57 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:19:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Shipfitter's Wife by Dorianne Laux Message-ID: The Shipfitter's Wife I loved him most when he came home from work, his fingers still curled from fitting pipe, his denim shirt ringed with sweat and smelling of salt, the drying weeds of the ocean. I'd go to where he sat on the edge of the bed, his forehead anointed with grease, his cracked hands jammed between his thighs, and unlace the steel-toed boots, stroke his ankles and calves, the pads and bones of his feet. Then I'd open his clothes and take the whole day inside me--the ship's gray sides, the miles of copper pipe, the voice of the foreman clanging off the hull's silver ribs. Spark of lead kissing metal. The clamp, the winch, the white fire of the torch, the whistle, and the long drive home. --Dorianne Laux ******************** Why it is not a PEMLOD (personal emotive monologue with lots of concrete detail)\ 1) The use of a dramatic persona, recall Pound's River Merchant's Wife 2) The details are imagined by an encounter with man after his work. Why it is not an Iowa Workshop Poem Same reasons, essentially. Why it is a good poem? I imagined I was a woman. I knew love. Because I am a man. ***************** Published in _Double Take_, re-printed in The BAP 1999, ed. Bly (Lehman), one of the better volumes, I think. I don't know Dorianne Laux's bio, I know one on this list who studied under her. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 13 13:24:24 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:24:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Clark Coolidge, "The Battle for the Cotton Reserves" References: Message-ID: Now this strikes me as more truly High Modern than much nowadays. What's going on inside the speaker's head is the poem, and the images are like the soup that truly afflicts our minds before we commit it to paper, yet one can see the thought behind the seemingly pure associative connections. And "President Dent" is so right. But I'm glad the poem is short. When these go on too long without relief, I get bored. In TWL Eliot modulates the rational and irrational and comic so well-- what's hard to do in a longer poem. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:24 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Clark Coolidge, "The Battle for the Cotton Reserves" | | The Battle for the Cotton Reserves | | Trucked his way through a door and grasped glass | the colonel is a maniac | I'm a store-bought flake | jackass runs me in blue | Indians hate illuminated buttons | lace-drawn windows oubliettes | get off my plush | domestic life even on the frontier is | boring and repetitive | the copse is laden with sand duration | I drunk I lie | wash my teeth with radioactive clams | actor, our lives can't be bought this cheap | and now nothing is left but the fire fossils | that's a good shine when do I leave? | Paladin commences the Dude abides | including President Dent | I lived in the house with the back | of the battle miniaturized | there are ores there | scoop the love from your innards | late of the Big Sioux Lull | | --Clark Coolidge | | fr. Far Out West | [New York: Adventures in Poetry, 2001] | | | Hal | | Halvard Johnson | =============== | email: halvard at earthlink.net | website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 13 13:26:46 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:26:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. References: <007801c43749$1bd80a20$d6607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: Thanks, great quote page. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anny Ballardini" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. | Agreed on the hint for dDah moderator, | and if you wish Chaffin there is some more here: | http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=287 | | Chirrup | sun is out after what was it, centuries, millennia? | | Anny Ballardini | http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome | | "We know that under a revealed image there is another one more faithful to | reality, and under that one there is another one, and again another one | under the latter. To the true image of that absolute, mysterious reality | that no one will ever see. Or maybe to the scanning of any image of whatever | reality." | Michelangelo Antonioni, 1964 | | From: "C. E. Chaffin" | Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 3:10 AM | | | > >>Also, there is a common notion (one I've often heard on>>>this list) | that | > words refer to things-- almost everyone in the >>philosophical | >>>discussion | > agrees that this simply isn't true<< | > | > | > | > This is sort of a version of the problem of translation. Words | > are all we have...imperfect as they may be, they wait with | > bated breath for "the voice of things." | > Finnegan | > | > | > **************** | > | > It's sweet quotes like yours, Finnegan, that made me glad I joined this | > list. | > | > And I ain't just suckin' up to da moderator. | > | > | > "No ideas but in things." --WCM | > | > "Poetry is metaphor." --RF | > | > "Poetry is language distilled into its most powerful form." | > | > | > --CE | > _______________________________________________ | > New-Poetry mailing list | > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | > | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 13 13:56:12 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:56:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] to Cooley back from CE: Graham & language, etc. References: Message-ID: | Sorry for the delay in responding CE -- I've wanted to give this adequate | thought & and have been too busy! Likewise. | | > Aye, there's the rub. Graham can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. | | This is commendable, I think, to be able to show what is beautiful in the | common, or what is eternal in the corruptible. To see a World in a Grain of | Sand, etc. Perhaps you are objecting to the sleight-of-hand-- but I believe | that is in the nature of language, our medium (as I will try to explain | further below). [I see now on re-reading that I've done nothing of the | sort.] | | > I, unlike you, want to see the sow's ear, not witness the endless | corollaries | > language can generate about a sow's ear. | | But language can never show you the sow's ear, only words referring to | concepts about the sow's ear. | | > When poetry becomes about language (and I know this a slightly archaic and | conservative opinion), | > and is no longer about what is, or _dass Ding an Sich_, | | I read Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and confess I understood almost none | of it. | I read German, so the phrase has entered my language. I have been told by aficionados that I don't understand Kant, either. LOL! | | Is Shakespeare a detour? Certainly, for me anyway, all the interest in his | plays is in the language. I really don't care much about the silly pretexts | for action. --an opinion lifted from DH Lawrence. Err.. you left out character, and how do you separate that from language and plot? Lear starts out as a blind buffoon, ends as a tragic man having obtained some painful wisdom. How do we come to empathize with him? | | > "My antidote for this [the declining popularity of poetry and fear of | > its academic mystique] is, quite simply, that poetry should be | > intelligible | > without footnotes, explanations of technique or other | > intermediary bells and | > whistles." | | But it's possible that readers won't come back to poetry no matter how | direct it is. Isn't this is part of a movement of culture toward the | visual, the salacious? Should poetry compete? Isn't that a kind of | debasement of self-expression? Shouldn't we thank the academy for keeping | an ancient tradition alive? for providing a place where one is encouraged to | expand attention beyond 30-seconds shown to be effective in PR-led research | in focus groups? (rhetoric, sorry ;) But it seems the project of | logopoetry is based on a market condition. | | > "The first concern of logopoetry is that art be intelligible. | | Is nature intelligible? Is God? How many of their secrets do they give up | on first perusal? Intelligible as in we are able to discuss its effect with some commonality. If all we can say is, "Wow!" the poem exceeds the medium. Intelligible not as in rational, sequential, but in its effect upon a receptive audience. In church God becomes more intelligible to me, not to say that he is in actuality, but the chosen forms makes it seem so. | | Yes Donne is spectacular. But liking one does not diminish the other, | right? Liking Whitman wouldn't make one conclude that Dickinson should have | gotten out of her room and rambled around the countryside. [Please forgive | the rhetorical nature of this remark and extract the sense. hohoho!] | Whitman and Dickinson are eminently more intelligible (as is Donne in my view) than Graham or many of Pound's Cantos | > And I never tire of "The | > Rime of the Ancient Mariner" or "Prufrock," which I think the two greatest | > poems in the language. Prufrock moves me, so does the Mariner, so does | > Dante's pilgrim, so does Homer's voice and the voice of David in | > the Psalms. | > But the voice of Graham, like so much I read nowadays, is more about the | > voice itself, the process of invention, while reality and the four great | > themes of poetry (Love, Death (including love lost), Nature and God) are | > peripheral at best in any _direct_ connection with the reader. | | But these themes are not great in themselves -- only in the lives of the | people and the language (the voice, the invention) of great writers. Yes? O yes, they are great, and it takes a great writer to be worthy of them. Those who have never written a poem in their lives are sometimes moved to do so by love or death or God or nature. | I believe that any move to make art useful is deprecatory. (including 'to | connect...') Only when it's allowed to be completely useless is it free to | do what it needs to do. Agreed. Intelligible does not mean useful. But if art does not connect to our beings, is it art? Disconnection by intent may briefly qualify as a novelty but cannot sustain itself, as it is counter-derivative. | | But if you believe that reality is inaccessible to us EXCEPT through | language (which poetry takes, I believe, as a self-imposed limitation), then | there is no conflict. Language always changes reality, yet reality is accessible to us without it, as in Sam Johnson knocking his sconce against the stone for Boswell. Still, great language awakens in us our own remembered and projected realities in a way a stone does not. Unless one were to meditate on the stone and make a poem out of it. | > Substance over form if it comes to that. I think the | > besetting error of | > our time, as typified by Ashbery late works and also Graham, is a | > pre-occupation with form. If there's nothing new to say, well, | > we knew that | > already from the last chapter of Ecclesiastes. | | To take exception to the great old preacher... There is a sense in which | everything now is new. For example, we know we aren't really under the sun | at all. Of course Solomon was speaking of human nature, not technology! | > I think that's the emperor's clothes, the fashion, and to dig | > through another's veils in order to connect to one true imparted emotion , | > or several, seems to me besides the point. I'm not talking about the | > "naked" poetry of Bukowski or slam-world, of course, but say, the | > clarity of | > Strand's earlier work. The magic. | | I'm surprised you like Strand so much. A probably incorrect intuition. He | seems to be a bit of a nihilist. (Or inversalist.) I would guess that you | are not. But what do I know. This from an as yet unpublished interview due out in June: "Post-Modern" says nothing about the substance of poetry since Ginsberg's "Howl." What Post-Modern literature has most in common is a preoccupation with self, which is the central question of our age, as psychoanalysis and existentialism have taught us. So I thought the term "Existential" a more descriptive term for poetry since 1955. As an aside, I find Strand's surrealistic meditations on depersonalization perhaps the most interesting and original approach during that early part of our era-call him post-confessional, if you will-because in his early work he struggles to find enough self _to confess_. | > But I'll take Blake's "Songs of Innocence and Experience" over | > everything Graham's written. | | Same could be said by most people of most poets. Yet it does not diminish | them or raise Blake one iota. Yes, but it does give us perspective on what is truly great and worthy of emulating. Thanks, Herr Doktor Chrisman Cooley, Thine, CE From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu May 13 13:56:57 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:56:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/11/04 10:52 PM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote: > Dear Paul, > > Excellent poem. The spelling of "Cretans" adds to the labyrinth, but one > can't help thinking of hypothyroid victims as well, notably Swiss dwarfs > before Switzerland discovered iodine. > > Kudos, > > CE CE, The "Cretans" of the poem refers to the Cretan of the famous "Liars Paradox" revealed in the statement, spoken by a Cretan, that "All Cretans are liars." That is to say (paradoxically) "This statement is a lie." Self-referential language gets one into all sorts of logical paradoxes. Here's another poem I wrote prior to "To the Breach." The title alludes to the same term in black English. Signifying We?ve learned of those French critics who Have got so tangled in their seine Of words, they can?t get out again. Words are null signs, they say. If true, Their own words twist to make them Cretans, Who, liars even as they lie, Signify they don?t signify. Paul Lake > > > | > | > | To the Breach > | > | > | > | I > | > | > | If words are, as you say, mere signifiers > | divorced from what they vainly signify, > | what can your own words do but prove to us > | the self-defeating nature of your logic, > | for words will conjure worlds, though thought be vexed > | to catch their mundane magic at the trick. > | > | > | > | II > | > | These words are signified > | As well as signifiers-- > | Tell this to Cretans who > | Declare all Cretans liars. > | > | > | > | III > | > | > | All language has been centered on the phallus, > | Cry critics, stretching mother tongues to tell us. > | > | Erase the text, and explicate the margin, > | Urge swollen texts, in pages black with jargon. > | > | Unwrite the written. Level what?s erect. > | To make the best connections, disconnect. > | > | > | > | Paul Lake > | > | > | > | > | > | > > | > > | > **************** > | > > | > It's sweet quotes like yours, Finnegan, that made me glad I joined this > | > list. > | > > | > And I ain't just suckin' up to da moderator. > | > > | > > | > "No ideas but in things." --WCM > | > > | > "Poetry is metaphor." --RF > | > > | > "Poetry is language distilled into its most powerful form." > | > > | > > | > --CE > | > _______________________________________________ > | > New-Poetry mailing list > | > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > | > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > | > --- > | > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > | > > | > > | > | --- > | [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | New-Poetry mailing list > | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > | > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Thu May 13 14:02:12 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:02:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Your archive References: <200405100433.i4A4XRXE010007@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The attachment didn't come through for me. Had a virus alert. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 11:20 PeSubject: [New-Poetry] Re: Your archive | Here is the file. | From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu May 13 14:01:56 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:01:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to CE, Graham & language, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great Stuff, Michael! I refer to similar research in my essay "The Enchanted Loom." The dirty secret is out: language magically makes us see and feel the things it names. Paul Lake on 5/12/04 8:22 PM, Michael Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote: > > On May 10, 2004, at 1:24 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > >> But language can never show you the sow's ear, only words referring to >> concepts about the sow's ear. > > But it may get nearly as close to showing that sow's ear as seeing one > does. > > A while ago while ago Human Nature Daily ( ) lnked to these two pieces > on language and the brain: > http://www.sciencenews.org/20040207/fob2.asp and > http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1137515,00.html . > > The first reports that the motor cortex of readers is involved in the > interpretation of action verbs, which literally get the blood flowing, > involving more parts of the brain: > " For instance, reading the word lick triggers pronounced blood flow in > sites of the motor cortex associated with tongue and mouth movements.? > 'Brain areas that are used to perform an action are also needed to > comprehend words related to that action,' Victor de Lafuente and > Ranulfo Romo of Mexico's National Autonomous University in Mexico City > comment in an editorial in the [Jan. 22 Neuron]. 'Remarkably, just the > reading of feet-related action words such as dance makes [the motor > cortex] move its '"feet."'" > > The second is a more general review of recent work, but this passage > got my attention: > "Using fMRI Dr [Sophie] Scott has shown that the brain takes speech > and separates it into words and "melody" - the varying intonation in > speech that reveals mood, gender and so on. Her studies suggest words > are then shunted over to the left temporal lobe for processing, while > the melody is channelled to the right side of the brain, a region more > stimulated by music." > > That last may suggest a mechanism for the action of meter (or other > rhythmic devices). > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From hruggier at localnet.com Thu May 13 12:57:49 2004 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:57:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A curious silence References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040513093129.02d245a0@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <003d01c4390b$6c7384f0$a70c9942@Helen> Dear Barry, what's it like out there all alone? ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Spacks To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 12:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] A curious silence Query: have there been no postings here since 5/5, or have I fallen off the edge of the cyber-world? Barry Praising is what matters! He [Orpheus] was summoned for that, and came to us like the ore from a stone's silence. His mortal heart presses out a deathless, inexhaustible wine. --from #7 in the 1st series of THE SONNETS TO ORPHEUS, Rainer Maria Rilke, February 1922, Stephen Mitchell translation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu May 13 15:02:53 2004 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:02:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A curious silence References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040513093129.02d245a0@incoming.verizon.net> <003d01c4390b$6c7384f0$a70c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <40A3C65D.8B28EC38@earthlink.net> You might want to send this backchannel, though I don't know if that's possible on the flat world Barry seems to sit upon. - Jim > Dear Barry, what's it like out there all alone? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barry Spacks > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 12:39 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] A curious silence > > Query: have there been no postings here since 5/5, > or have I fallen off the edge of the cyber-world? > > Barry > > Praising is what matters! He [Orpheus] was summoned for that, > and came to us like the ore from a stone's > silence. His mortal heart presses out > a deathless, inexhaustible wine. > > --from #7 in the 1st series of > THE SONNETS TO ORPHEUS, > Rainer Maria Rilke, February 1922, > Stephen Mitchell translati From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 13 22:05:50 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 22:05:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: MEXICO WRITERS RETREAT WITH JANICE EIDUS & BEVERLY DONOFRIO IN BEAUTIFUL SAN MIGUEL DE ALLENDE Message-ID: <000301c43957$fa856280$1fe8c043@computer> THE WRITERS WORKSHOP IN BEAUTIFUL SAN MIGUEL DE ALLENDE STUDY FICTION WRITING & MEMOIR WRITING WITH WRITERS JANICE EIDUS & BEVERLY DONOFRIO IN SAN MIGUEL DE ALLENDE, MEXICO AUGUST 23 - AUGUST 29, 2004 The All-inclusive Fee: $1,800 -- Workshops only: $800 For more information or to register: Email: jodynville at aol.com Phone: 323-306-4068 Space is limited. A deposit of $500 dollars is required. All fees are in US dollars. The glorious spring-like weather throughout August makes San Miguel a perfect travel destination. San Miguel possesses European ambience -- it is stunning, cultured, and urbane. Nestled in the Sierra Madres north of Mexico City, San Miguel has made a name for itself in writing and artistic circles around the world with its quaint, seductive charm -- including its four-century old churches, cobblestone streets, and shady, peaceful gardens. We invite you to immerse yourself in luxury while writing, sharing, and learning in a creative, fun, and inspirational workshop. Your week includes all ground transportation, hotel, all meals, spa treatments, day tours and classes in traditional Mexican cooking. Students will also participate in evening readings and receive private critiques with Janice or Beverly. Details on the two workshops follow: MEMOIR WORKSHOP with BEVERLY DONOFRIO Beverly Donofrio, the author of cult classic Riding in Cars with Boys, will present a Memoir Workshop to inspire your inner writer in a safe, noncompetitive environment. "Beverly Donofrio assists the writer to choose the most telling details from his/her life and helps one dig deeper to find the emotion behind the scene." - Susan McKinney de Ortega, author, Tales of My Disappearance When Beverly Donofrio?s memoir, Riding in Cars with Boys, was published in 1990, it helped define the genre. A cult classic, it was made into a Hollywood movie starring Drew Barrymore. Her second memoir, Looking for Mary, was chosen by Barnes and Noble as one of the best books of the year and has since touched hearts everywhere. The president of PEN San Miguel, she has delivered commentaries about her life and experiences on National Public Radio; she has also written for TV, is published in numerous anthologies, and is a frequent contributor to national magazines. Donofrio is an inspirational teacher who will create a safe, noncompetitive environment to help writers of all levels: ? Use inventive techniques to stimulate memory and break down defenses ? Diminish emotional resistances ? Shape experience into story ? Compose compelling scenes ? Locate voice ? Enhance description FICTION WORKSHOP WITH JANICE EIDUS Janice Eidus is a two-time winner of the O. Henry Prize, among other awards. In this workshop, you will explore all the essential elements of writing fiction, while finding new inspiration and focus. "There's simply no other creative writing teacher who has Janice Eidus's passion, dedication, and wisdom. She is singular, and a treasure." -- Lisa Dierbeck, author, One Pill Makes You Smaller Award-winning writer Janice Eidus is actively engaged in long-time love affairs with both writing and teaching. She writes and lectures about such diverse subjects as writing, Jewish identity, women?s issues, creativity, popular culture, and how to get published. She's twice won the O. Henry Prize, as well as a Redbook Prize, a Pushcart Prize, and a National Writers Voice Residency Award, among other awards. She is the author of the short story collections, The Celibacy Club and Vito Loves Geraldine, and the novels, Urban Bliss and Faithful Rebecca, as well as co-editor of It's Only Rock And Roll: an Anthology of Rock and Roll Short Stories. In this supportive and safe workshop, writers of all levels will: ? Explore essential elements of fiction ? Locate voice ? Deepen characterization ? Clarify conflict ? Enhance description ? Develop fresh ideas from our real and imagined lives From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 13 23:32:06 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 23:32:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me Message-ID: I'm writing this from a hotel room outside Lexington KY. The sound of the highway filtering through the walls of the hotel. Anyway, I just found out tonight that Garrison Keillor will be using one of my poems for The Writer's Almanac on May 17th. This is very strange for two reasons: (1) Recently, on this list, I was defending the TWA program against that strange attack by Kleinzahler in Poetry magazine; and (2) because the poem has got to be 15 years old at this point and has never been published in a book. So where he came across the poem is beyond me. Although, I do believe it was reprinted from a small literary magazine into an anthology called _Drive, He Said_. It was an anthology of car/automotive (or auto-motif) poems. The poem itself I liked enough that at one time it was the title poem of a manuscript: "Hard River." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 14 07:37:11 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:37:11 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me References: Message-ID: <002d01c439a7$cbefd270$e11c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> This confirms my evaluation of your poetry, I am happy you were chosen Anny P.S. I didn't express my thoughts before but I do like Keillor's programs, his talent as an actor -and yes, his voice receives good points from me, his irony-cynicism, and his capacity of getting down to the bottom of the big pot (society) to see what is there. Not many of us are willing to go into that direction, better epistemology and semantics semiology and etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 5:32 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me I'm writing this from a hotel room outside Lexington KY. The sound of the highway filtering through the walls of the hotel. Anyway, I just found out tonight that Garrison Keillor will be using one of my poems for The Writer's Almanac on May 17th. This is very strange for two reasons: (1) Recently, on this list, I was defending the TWA program against that strange attack by Kleinzahler in Poetry magazine; and (2) because the poem has got to be 15 years old at this point and has never been published in a book. So where he came across the poem is beyond me. Although, I do believe it was reprinted from a small literary magazine into an anthology called _Drive, He Said_. It was an anthology of car/automotive (or auto-motif) poems. The poem itself I liked enough that at one time it was the title poem of a manuscript: "Hard River." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Fri May 14 11:59:55 2004 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:59:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A306@mail.ripon.edu> How about a preview, Finnegan? After all, those who can't abide Keillor's voice might like to read your poem in their own voices. Me, I like his voice, and actually I own *Drive, They Said*, which I think's a very nifty anthology. But not everyone has it on their shelves, I'm guessing. Since the anthology is from Milkweed in Minneapolis, that's no doubt why your poem crossed Keillor's radar screen. Perhaps "The Wrecker" will be next? ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:32 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me > > I'm writing this from a hotel room outside Lexington KY. > The sound of the highway filtering through the walls > of the hotel. Anyway, I just found out tonight that Garrison > Keillor will be using one of my poems for The Writer's Almanac > on May 17th. This is very strange for two reasons: (1) > Recently, on this list, I was defending the TWA program > against that strange attack by Kleinzahler in Poetry magazine; > and (2) because the poem has got to be 15 years old > at this point and has never been published in a book. > So where he came across the poem is beyond me. > Although, I do believe it was reprinted from a small literary > magazine into an anthology called _Drive, He Said_. > It was an anthology of car/automotive (or auto-motif) poems. > The poem itself I liked enough that at one time it was > the title poem of a manuscript: "Hard River." > Finnegan > From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 14 12:38:04 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:38:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A306@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <001c01c439d1$d5b4cac0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I'll be listening on May 17. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:59 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me > How about a preview, Finnegan? After all, those who can't abide Keillor's > voice might like to read your poem in their own voices. > > Me, I like his voice, and actually I own *Drive, They Said*, which I think's > a very nifty anthology. But not everyone has it on their shelves, I'm > guessing. > > Since the anthology is from Milkweed in Minneapolis, that's no doubt why > your poem crossed Keillor's radar screen. Perhaps "The Wrecker" will be > next? > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > ---------- > > From: JforJames at aol.com > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:32 PM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me > > > > I'm writing this from a hotel room outside Lexington KY. > > The sound of the highway filtering through the walls > > of the hotel. Anyway, I just found out tonight that Garrison > > Keillor will be using one of my poems for The Writer's Almanac > > on May 17th. This is very strange for two reasons: (1) > > Recently, on this list, I was defending the TWA program > > against that strange attack by Kleinzahler in Poetry magazine; > > and (2) because the poem has got to be 15 years old > > at this point and has never been published in a book. > > So where he came across the poem is beyond me. > > Although, I do believe it was reprinted from a small literary > > magazine into an anthology called _Drive, He Said_. > > It was an anthology of car/automotive (or auto-motif) poems. > > The poem itself I liked enough that at one time it was > > the title poem of a manuscript: "Hard River." > > Finnegan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 14 12:41:52 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:41:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A306@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <002601c439d2$5d5d7da0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Keillor's willingness to dig through small anthologies (or have his staff do it, same difference as far as I'm concerned) speaks well for him. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:59 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me > How about a preview, Finnegan? After all, those who can't abide Keillor's > voice might like to read your poem in their own voices. > > Me, I like his voice, and actually I own *Drive, They Said*, which I think's > a very nifty anthology. But not everyone has it on their shelves, I'm > guessing. > > Since the anthology is from Milkweed in Minneapolis, that's no doubt why > your poem crossed Keillor's radar screen. Perhaps "The Wrecker" will be > next? > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > ---------- > > From: JforJames at aol.com > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:32 PM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me > > > > I'm writing this from a hotel room outside Lexington KY. > > The sound of the highway filtering through the walls > > of the hotel. Anyway, I just found out tonight that Garrison > > Keillor will be using one of my poems for The Writer's Almanac > > on May 17th. This is very strange for two reasons: (1) > > Recently, on this list, I was defending the TWA program > > against that strange attack by Kleinzahler in Poetry magazine; > > and (2) because the poem has got to be 15 years old > > at this point and has never been published in a book. > > So where he came across the poem is beyond me. > > Although, I do believe it was reprinted from a small literary > > magazine into an anthology called _Drive, He Said_. > > It was an anthology of car/automotive (or auto-motif) poems. > > The poem itself I liked enough that at one time it was > > the title poem of a manuscript: "Hard River." > > Finnegan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri May 14 13:51:19 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:51:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/13/04 10:32 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > I'm writing this from a hotel room outside Lexington KY. > The sound of the highway filtering through the walls > of the hotel. Anyway, I just found out tonight that Garrison > Keillor will be using one of my poems for The Writer's Almanac > on May 17th. This is very strange for two reasons: (1) > Recently, on this list, I was defending the TWA program > against that strange attack by Kleinzahler in Poetry magazine; > and (2) because the poem has got to be 15 years old > at this point and has never been published in a book. > So where he came across the poem is beyond me. > Although, I do believe it was reprinted from a small literary > magazine into an anthology called _Drive, He Said_. > It was an anthology of car/automotive (or auto-motif) poems. > The poem itself I liked enough that at one time it was > the title poem of a manuscript: "Hard River." > Finnegan > Congratulations, Jim. Great news. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Fri May 14 14:17:05 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:17:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: MEXICO WRITERS RETREAT WITH JANICE EIDUS & BEVERLY DONOFRIO IN BEAUTIFUL SAN MIGUEL DE ALLENDE References: <000301c43957$fa856280$1fe8c043@computer> Message-ID: Err... where this writer lives. August is nice. I have managed to avoid all writers and writing groups here, save a few poetry readings by others. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 9:05 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: MEXICO WRITERS RETREAT WITH JANICE EIDUS & BEVERLY DONOFRIO IN BEAUTIFUL SAN MIGUEL DE ALLENDE From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 14 14:19:15 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:19:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me Message-ID: <39.47da3e27.2dd667a3@aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/2004 12:01:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: How about a preview, Finnegan? After all, those who can't abide Keillor's voice might like to read your poem in their own voices. -- David, Tonight after work I'll try to find it on my hard drive...no doubt in some folder with a title like "old poems" (or "very old poems"). If that fails I'll retype it and post it. Though I know the moment I start typing it there will be an almost uncontrollable urge to revise it utterly. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Fri May 14 14:24:28 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:24:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> <027001c43616$e81bc150$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <036401c43629$970961b0$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: | Your excerpt to New-Poetry didn't answer my question about where the use of | extreme ellipses, or jump-cuts, began. Was it in "The Wasteland?" --Bob G. I think Prufrock does that first: "In the room the women come and go...." Though the discontinuity is much greater in TWL, the technique, near as I can tell, began in Prufrock-- which was likely finished by 1913 while Eliot was still at Harvard, or was he at the Sorbonne? Thanks for giving the essay a shot. And congrats to Finnegan on the Keillor inclusion! Lastly, I keep receiving attachments with a virus claiming to be sent by R. S. Gwynn to the list, so perhaps Finnegan can check on that. I'm not blaming Gwynn, our e-mails get hijacked sometimes. Anybody else see these? --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor | Okay, I've now read enough of your essay (first two sections) to know I'll | read it all--fairly soon, CE. I wish you hadn't called "The Wasteland" the | most influential 20th-Century poem, though. . . . | | Your essay made be want to reread Eliot--and Pound. That, I think, is the | highest compliment one could pay it. I did skim "The Wasteland" and a few | other poems of Eliot's, and some of Pounds after reading it. WIll return to | them. | | More in due course, I hope. | | --Bob G. | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From cmurray at uta.edu Fri May 14 14:33:47 2004 From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:33:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... Message-ID: Hello. Enjoying reading all this abt Eliot--thanks for that. But just to answer the question over emails and viruses: I've been getting the same ones, so am now interested to know how widespread it is, too. Best Wishes, Chris Murray http://uta.edu/english/znine http://texfiles.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/14/2004 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... | Your excerpt to New-Poetry didn't answer my question about where the use of | extreme ellipses, or jump-cuts, began. Was it in "The Wasteland?" --Bob G. I think Prufrock does that first: "In the room the women come and go...." Though the discontinuity is much greater in TWL, the technique, near as I can tell, began in Prufrock-- which was likely finished by 1913 while Eliot was still at Harvard, or was he at the Sorbonne? Thanks for giving the essay a shot. And congrats to Finnegan on the Keillor inclusion! Lastly, I keep receiving attachments with a virus claiming to be sent by R. S. Gwynn to the list, so perhaps Finnegan can check on that. I'm not blaming Gwynn, our e-mails get hijacked sometimes. Anybody else see these? --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor | Okay, I've now read enough of your essay (first two sections) to know I'll | read it all--fairly soon, CE. I wish you hadn't called "The Wasteland" the | most influential 20th-Century poem, though. . . . | | Your essay made be want to reread Eliot--and Pound. That, I think, is the | highest compliment one could pay it. I did skim "The Wasteland" and a few | other poems of Eliot's, and some of Pounds after reading it. WIll return to | them. | | More in due course, I hope. | | --Bob G. | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 14 15:02:39 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:02:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me Message-ID: <281450-22004551419239613@M2W057.mail2web.com> David - you have the anthology -- maybe scan it? Original Message: ----------------- From: JforJames at aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:19:15 EDT To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me In a message dated 5/14/2004 12:01:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: How about a preview, Finnegan? After all, those who can't abide Keillor's voice might like to read your poem in their own voices. -- David, Tonight after work I'll try to find it on my hard drive...no doubt in some folder with a title like "old poems" (or "very old poems"). If that fails I'll retype it and post it. Though I know the moment I start typing it there will be an almost uncontrollable urge to revise it utterly. Finnegan -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 14 15:04:03 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:04:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... Message-ID: <191690-2200455141943679@M2W073.mail2web.com> Haven't been getting the Gwynn ones - have gotten a lot of virusmail to this list from "A dead poet." Original Message: ----------------- From: Christine Murray cmurray at uta.edu Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:33:47 -0500 To: eliotpoe at hotmail.com, new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... Hello. Enjoying reading all this abt Eliot--thanks for that. But just to answer the question over emails and viruses: I've been getting the same ones, so am now interested to know how widespread it is, too. Best Wishes, Chris Murray http://uta.edu/english/znine http://texfiles.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/14/2004 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... | Your excerpt to New-Poetry didn't answer my question about where the use of | extreme ellipses, or jump-cuts, began. Was it in "The Wasteland?" --Bob G. I think Prufrock does that first: "In the room the women come and go...." Though the discontinuity is much greater in TWL, the technique, near as I can tell, began in Prufrock-- which was likely finished by 1913 while Eliot was still at Harvard, or was he at the Sorbonne? Thanks for giving the essay a shot. And congrats to Finnegan on the Keillor inclusion! Lastly, I keep receiving attachments with a virus claiming to be sent by R. S. Gwynn to the list, so perhaps Finnegan can check on that. I'm not blaming Gwynn, our e-mails get hijacked sometimes. Anybody else see these? --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Waste Land's Main Editor | Okay, I've now read enough of your essay (first two sections) to know I'll | read it all--fairly soon, CE. I wish you hadn't called "The Wasteland" the | most influential 20th-Century poem, though. . . . | | Your essay made be want to reread Eliot--and Pound. That, I think, is the | highest compliment one could pay it. I did skim "The Wasteland" and a few | other poems of Eliot's, and some of Pounds after reading it. WIll return to | them. | | More in due course, I hope. | | --Bob G. | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From reneea at verizon.net Fri May 14 15:32:59 2004 From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:32:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... References: <191690-2200455141943679@M2W073.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <005b01c439ea$44003010$da66fea9@Barnette> Yes. I get the Gwynns and the deadpoets -- quite a few, actually. My Norton Anti-Virus likes to delete them which is fine with me. (I'm not talking about emails from Mr. Gwynn per se, but the odd ones with attachments.) Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:04 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... > > Haven't been getting the Gwynn ones - have gotten a lot of virusmail to > this list from "A dead poet." > > > From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 14 16:04:43 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:04:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elliptical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/14/04 1:24 PM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote: > | Your excerpt to New-Poetry didn't answer my question about where the use > of > | extreme ellipses, or jump-cuts, began. Was it in "The Wasteland?" > > --Bob G. > > I think Prufrock does that first: > > "In the room the women come and go...." > > Though the discontinuity is much greater in TWL, the technique, near as I > can tell, began in Prufrock-- which was likely finished by 1913 while Eliot > was still at Harvard, or was he at the Sorbonne? In this as in many things, Whitman is the great precurson, isn't he? Plenty of radical jump-cuts of all sorts in "Song of Myself," and the 1855 edition featured ellipses in place of more conventional punctuation. The bride unrumples her white dress, the minute-hand of the clock moves slowly; The opium-eater reclines with rigid head and just-open'd lips; The prostitute draggles her shawl, her bonnet bobs on her tipsy and pimpled neck; The crowd laugh at her blackguard oaths, the men jeer and wink to each other; (Miserable! I do not laugh at your oaths, nor jeer you;) The President, holding a cabinet council, is surrounded by the Great Secretaries; On the piazza walk three matrons stately and friendly with twined arms; The crew of the fish-smack pack repeated layers of halibut in the hold --SOM #15 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 14 16:26:57 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:26:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A306@mail.ripon.edu> <002601c439d2$5d5d7da0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00c201c439f1$d028e8a0$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Keillor's willingness to dig through small anthologies (or have his staff do > it, same difference as far as I'm concerned) speaks well for him. He's a real digger, all right. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 14 16:30:16 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:30:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... References: <14.28f38194.2dcd89a8@aol.com> <008401c434f5$5cefae60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005101c434f8$e1fdb1d0$e6622745@S0028976576> <409CD4B6.7B1EEB21@ix.netcom.com> <409D0EA0.6D521369@ix.netcom.com> <01ca01c4352d$9c1886b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <409D5B24.A1A95CBB@ix.netcom.com> <409E4207.4DD05DAE@ix.netcom.com> <027001c43616$e81bc150$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <036401c43629$970961b0$8defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00eb01c439f2$469fc080$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > --Bob G. > > I think Prufrock does that first: > > "In the room the women come and go...." > > Though the discontinuity is much greater in TWL, the technique, near as I > can tell, began in Prufrock-- which was likely finished by 1913 while Eliot > was still at Harvard, or was he at the Sorbonne? > > Thanks for giving the essay a shot. So you think Eliot was the first with this technique. Interesting. I'll look into it. And also finally finish your essay sometime fairly soon, I hope! --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 14 16:37:51 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:37:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elliptical References: Message-ID: <010101c439f3$55da69f0$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > | Your excerpt to New-Poetry didn't answer my question about where the use > > of > > | extreme ellipses, or jump-cuts, began. Was it in "The Wasteland?" > > > > --Bob G. > > > > I think Prufrock does that first: > > > > "In the room the women come and go...." > > > > Though the discontinuity is much greater in TWL, the technique, near as I > > can tell, began in Prufrock-- which was likely finished by 1913 while Eliot > > was still at Harvard, or was he at the Sorbonne? > > In this as in many things, Whitman is the great precurson, isn't he? Plenty > of radical jump-cuts of all sorts in "Song of Myself," and the 1855 edition > featured ellipses in place of more conventional punctuation. > > > > The bride unrumples her white dress, the minute-hand of the clock moves > slowly; > The opium-eater reclines with rigid head and just-open'd lips; > The prostitute draggles her shawl, her bonnet bobs on her tipsy and pimpled > neck; > The crowd laugh at her blackguard oaths, the men jeer and wink to each > other; > (Miserable! I do not laugh at your oaths, nor jeer you;) > The President, holding a cabinet council, is surrounded by the Great > Secretaries; > On the piazza walk three matrons stately and friendly with twined arms; > The crew of the fish-smack pack repeated layers of halibut in the hold > > --SOM #15 My initial reaction is that Whitman just made lists, but maybe Eliot took his cue from Whitman. I'll have to look further into it, I guess. And (sorry) work up a more detailed definition of what I mean by jump-cuts. --Bob G. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Fri May 14 17:55:36 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:55:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elliptical References: <010101c439f3$55da69f0$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: My initial reaction is that Whitman just made lists, but maybe Eliot took | his cue from Whitman. I'll have to look further into it, I guess. And | (sorry) work up a more detailed definition of what I mean by jump-cuts. | | --Bob G. I agree with you, Bob. This is more a large umbrella list connected by the narrator's persona than a jump. ***************************** "I should have been a pair of ragged claws..' ****************************** Divided from the text of Prufrock by asterisks this was an incredible leap and works so well. In English I give Eliot credit. Not expert to speak on world literature, but I suspect Eliot was first with the extreme psychological discontinuity which nevertheless resonates with the unconscious. Whitman was a very conscious, even self-conscious poet. Of course Williams and Ginsberg considered themselves direct descendants of Walter. What really blows my mind is that Neruda claimed Whitman as his mentor, yet Neruda's sensual surrealism I find so different.. and if I can be forgiven, so superior to Whitman, though I recognize Whitman as the great innovator he was. Still, I think Dickinson's dashes closer to Eliot's discontinuities than Whitman's transcendental travelogues. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Elliptical | > > | Your excerpt to New-Poetry didn't answer my question about where the | use | > > of | > > | extreme ellipses, or jump-cuts, began. Was it in "The Wasteland?" | > > | > > --Bob G. | > > | > > I think Prufrock does that first: | > > | > > "In the room the women come and go...." | > > | > > Though the discontinuity is much greater in TWL, the technique, near as | I | > > can tell, began in Prufrock-- which was likely finished by 1913 while | Eliot | > > was still at Harvard, or was he at the Sorbonne? | > | > In this as in many things, Whitman is the great precurson, isn't he? | Plenty | > of radical jump-cuts of all sorts in "Song of Myself," and the 1855 | edition | > featured ellipses in place of more conventional punctuation. | > | > | > | > The bride unrumples her white dress, the minute-hand of the clock moves | > slowly; | > The opium-eater reclines with rigid head and just-open'd lips; | > The prostitute draggles her shawl, her bonnet bobs on her tipsy and | pimpled | > neck; | > The crowd laugh at her blackguard oaths, the men jeer and wink to each | > other; | > (Miserable! I do not laugh at your oaths, nor jeer you;) | > The President, holding a cabinet council, is surrounded by the Great | > Secretaries; | > On the piazza walk three matrons stately and friendly with twined arms; | > The crew of the fish-smack pack repeated layers of halibut in the hold | > | > --SOM #15 | | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 14 18:01:05 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:01:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A306@mail.ripon.edu> <002601c439d2$5d5d7da0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <00c201c439f1$d028e8a0$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001601c439fe$f5ce9750$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> And this is a bad thing why? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me > > > > Keillor's willingness to dig through small anthologies (or have his staff > do > > it, same difference as far as I'm concerned) speaks well for him. > > He's a real digger, all right. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 14 19:39:45 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:39:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A306@mail.ripon.edu> <002601c439d2$5d5d7da0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <00c201c439f1$d028e8a0$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001601c439fe$f5ce9750$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <016601c43a0c$c020f360$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > > > > > > Keillor's willingness to dig through small anthologies (or have his > staff > > do > > > it, same difference as far as I'm concerned) speaks well for him. > > > > He's a real digger, all right. > > > > --Bob G. > > > And this is a bad thing why? > I was being sarcastic. He may dig in a few more fields than some stasguards do but he digs on the same farm all the others keep out of the wilderness at. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Sat May 15 11:31:15 2004 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 11:31:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Jabberwonks Message-ID: <40A5FF83.26424.9E74DA@localhost> The Jabberwonks 'Twas bush league, and the slimy droves Of rightwingnuts loved condibabe; While powells, ashcrofts, cheneys, roves, And rumsfelds abu ghraib. "Beware the Jabberwonks, my son! Its clauses mean, its verbs agree -- Beware the tax!" said Forty-one; "... the facts!" heard Forty-three. He took his verbal word in mouth Long time the media he conned: He grinned and quipped "If there's no script Then I need not respond!" He stood there not responding when The Jabberwonks showed photographs Of tortured captives Rummy's men Had tormented for laughs. "Just one or two! At most a few!" The verbal word denied, denied, Denied command of those it canned And, in courts martial, tried. "And hast thou gamed the Jabberwonks, With talk of honor where there's none; Is oil still squirtin' for Haliburton? Oh, what a good job you've done!" 'Twas bush league, and the slimy droves Of rightwingnuts loved condibabe; While powells, ashcrofts, cheneys, roves, And rumsfelds abu ghraib. From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 15 12:57:39 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:57:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Martha=20Ronk's=20"Prepositional"=A0=20?= Message-ID: <1c1.1925734a.2dd7a603@aol.com> Subj: Martha Ronk's "Prepositional"? Date: 5/14/2004 8:31:11 PM Eastern Standard Time From: guy.bennett at sbcglobal.net Sent from the Internet (Details) Dear Reader, I am pleased to announce that "Prepositional" by Martha Ronk has just been published by Seeing Eye Books. Just as prepositions connect nouns to other words and define the relationships that bind them together, so do the poems that make up "Prepositional" form a nexus of discrete connections linking thought to language, quotidian events, and philosophical meditation, all of which are concerns lie at the heart of Martha Ronk's writing. "Prepositional" is available as part of this year's Seeing Eye Books series, which also includes work by Dolores Dorantes, Val?re Novarina, and Candace Pirnak. If you would like to subscribe, please email me for details. If you are already a subscriber - thank you! - and my apologies for sending you this note. If you would like more information about Seeing Eye Books, please respond to this message with your address. A PDF version of our catalogue is available via e-mail upon request. If you'd like to be removed from this list just let me know, and my apologies in advance for the inconvenience. Best wishes, Guy Bennett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 15 13:25:01 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:25:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me Message-ID: <1e5.206751c5.2dd7ac6d@aol.com> Obligatory Disclaimer: First published in 1991 (ouch) which means it's at least 15 years old at this point. Talk about dredged up from the depths... Finnegan --- Hard River ?????? I pulled back ?????? the jaundiced curtains ?????? of the room rented ?????? for four weeks in Wichita. ?????? I didn't care ?????? that the only thing I could see ?????? from the window was the highway, ?????? because I would watch the highway ?????? the way I used to watch the river ?????? with a six of beer and nowhere to go ?????? after work, just watch ?????? the cars and trucks ?????? flow on and on, heading home ?????? or to work or nowhere in particular, ?????? knowing out there somewhere ?????? someone was listening to the radio, ?????? the same station I was listening to, ?????? with this man talking, just talking ?????? into space, wavelengths over furrows ?????? in wide stretches of farmland, ?????? knowing no one cares ?????? about what he's saying, ?????? still he talks and syllables and seconds ?????? and dust settle like silt in the open air, ?????? a child asleep across the backseat ?????? of a car, tires throbbing over ?????? slabs of pavement, no spare ?????? in the trunk and four hundred miles ?????? from here to wherever is there ?????? on the hard river that carries them along ?????? and if they're lucky, ?????? takes them home. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sat May 15 14:59:53 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 13:59:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay References: <1c1.1925734a.2dd7a603@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Reader, I am pleased to announce that "Prepositional" by Martha Ronk has just been published by Seeing Eye Books. <> Bob, how can you resist this near definition of an Iowa Plainlay? Just remove "philosophic." (My how that term is abused in poetry.) No criticism meant towards Guy or the poet. --CE From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat May 15 15:39:35 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... Message-ID: <20040515193935.77B083957@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat May 15 15:46:20 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 15:46:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay References: <1c1.1925734a.2dd7a603@aol.com> Message-ID: <006f01c43ab5$4d096750$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I had an Iowa Plainlay once....no, I won't go there. It's unworthy of me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. E. Chaffin" To: Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay > > > > Dear Reader, > > I am pleased to announce that "Prepositional" by > Martha Ronk has just been published by Seeing Eye > Books. > > < and define the relationships that bind them > together, so do the poems that make up > "Prepositional" form a nexus of discrete > connections linking thought to language, > quotidian events, and philosophical meditation, > all of which are concerns lie at the heart of > Martha Ronk's writing.>> > > Bob, how can you resist this near definition of an Iowa Plainlay? Just > remove "philosophic." (My how that term is abused in poetry.) > > No criticism meant towards Guy or the poet. > > --CE > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat May 15 15:51:56 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 15:51:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me In-Reply-To: <1e5.206751c5.2dd7ac6d@aol.com> Message-ID: <523DC50E-A6A9-11D8-B9D1-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> I like it, Jim. If Writer's Almanac played in this market, I'd listen for this one. Wendy On Saturday, May 15, 2004, at 01:25 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Obligatory Disclaimer: > First published in 1991 (ouch) which means > it's at least 15 years old at this point. > Talk about dredged up from the depths... > Finnegan > --- > > Hard River > > > ?????? I pulled back > ?????? the jaundiced curtains > ?????? of the room rented > ?????? for four weeks in Wichita. > ?????? I didn't care > ?????? that the only thing I could see > ?????? from the window was the highway, > ?????? because I would watch the highway > ?????? the way I used to watch the river > ?????? with a six of beer and nowhere to go > ?????? after work, just watch > ?????? the cars and trucks > ?????? flow on and on, heading home > ?????? or to work or nowhere in particular, > ?????? knowing out there somewhere > ?????? someone was listening to the radio, > ?????? the same station I was listening to, > ?????? with this man talking, just talking > ?????? into space, wavelengths over furrows > ?????? in wide stretches of farmland, > ?????? knowing no one cares > ?????? about what he's saying, > ?????? still he talks and syllables and seconds > ?????? and dust settle like silt in the open air, > ?????? a child asleep across the backseat > ?????? of a car, tires throbbing over > ?????? slabs of pavement, no spare > ?????? in the trunk and four hundred miles > ?????? from here to wherever is there > ?????? on the hard river that carries them along > ?????? and if they're lucky, > ?????? takes them home. > > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1743 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reneea at verizon.net Sat May 15 16:23:54 2004 From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 16:23:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellipses and viruses... References: <20040515193935.77B083957@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <000d01c43aba$8b4094d0$da66fea9@Barnette> Hi Bob, That's probably a good idea -- sending them to the purported senders. I'm just baffled by the malicious impulse to create these things! Sending trouble and expense to people the originator doesn't even know! Amazing. Renee From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 15 17:14:56 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:14:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] DeFrees has won the first Denise Levertov Award Message-ID: <96.b10df7b.2dd7e250@aol.com> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/artsentertainment/2001922982_bbrief08.html Seattle poet Madeline DeFrees has won the first Denise Levertov Award, an award to be given annually to an artist or creative writer "whose work exemplifies a serious and sustained engagement with the Judeo-Christian tradition." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 15 17:47:07 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:47:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay References: <1c1.1925734a.2dd7a603@aol.com> Message-ID: <01d801c43ac6$2d6f6ff0$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Dear Reader, > > I am pleased to announce that "Prepositional" by > Martha Ronk has just been published by Seeing Eye > Books. > > < and define the relationships that bind them > together, so do the poems that make up > "Prepositional" form a nexus of discrete > connections linking thought to language, > quotidian events, and philosophical meditation, > all of which are concerns lie at the heart of > Martha Ronk's writing.>> > > Bob, how can you resist this near definition of an Iowa Plainlay? Just > remove "philosophic." (My how that term is abused in poetry.) Hey, CE, thanks for putting my "plainlay" into a title! Yes, a near definition, indeed. But linking thought to language (how does one do that!!!) may be beyond what an Iowa . . . ought-oh, I may be about to seem like I'm trying to bait someone, so I'd better stop. > No criticism meant towards Guy or the poet. Ditto. --Bob G. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sat May 15 18:36:17 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:36:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me-- more automotive poetry References: <1e5.206751c5.2dd7ac6d@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Finnegan, Here's one over 20 years old, though it wasn't published until the late 90s in _Pif_. Resistance With rude clanks my tailpipe beats the rear axle, each pothole bruising the brake line's thin artery until it bleeds on the transmission housing. The brake pedal gives up the ghost and falls to the mat. Diagnosis: broken muffler strap. In the auto parts store butts crawl along the baseboards, fluorescent lights superilluminate racks of chrome accessories, the book of life is opened, my need indexed: one 40" brakeline for a '68 Skylark. Supine on a creeper in the chassis' catacombs rust sprinkles my face in gritty showers, fallout from the slow bomb of time. Damn! A bleeder valve breaks! Can we finish? John crawls underneath and like a glass blower twists the new conduit in place. He turns the valves, I pump the brakes. Red fluid squirts until no bubbles show. The pedal firms, pumps back and its resistance feels like heaven. (written while a poor intern who still had to fix his own brakes.) --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me ********************************** Obligatory Disclaimer: First published in 1991 (ouch) which means it's at least 15 years old at this point. Talk about dredged up from the depths... Finnegan --- Hard River I pulled back the jaundiced curtains of the room rented for four weeks in Wichita. I didn't care that the only thing I could see from the window was the highway, because I would watch the highway the way I used to watch the river with a six of beer and nowhere to go after work, just watch the cars and trucks flow on and on, heading home or to work or nowhere in particular, knowing out there somewhere someone was listening to the radio, the same station I was listening to, with this man talking, just talking into space, wavelengths over furrows in wide stretches of farmland, knowing no one cares about what he's saying, still he talks and syllables and seconds and dust settle like silt in the open air, a child asleep across the backseat of a car, tires throbbing over slabs of pavement, no spare in the trunk and four hundred miles from here to wherever is there on the hard river that carries them along and if they're lucky, takes them home. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sat May 15 18:38:58 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:38:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay References: <1c1.1925734a.2dd7a603@aol.com> <006f01c43ab5$4d096750$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: Ah, what must a mole excuse? Though I never believed: _Alle Katze sind grau im Dunkel._ Then I'm a doctor. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay | I had an Iowa Plainlay once....no, I won't go there. It's unworthy of me. | From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 15 20:46:34 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 20:46:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collected Poems by Lee Harwood Message-ID: Date:? ? Fri, 14 May 2004 10:19:03 +0100 From:? ? Tony Frazer Subject: Lee Harwood Shearsman Books announces the publication of Collected Poems by Lee Harwood (Paperback, 521pp, 9ins x 6ins, =A317.95 / $28) Available from all good bookshops from the end of this week, from Peter Riley and Alan Halsey's mail-order services now, or indeed from me direct, though I'd suggest interested readers support the aforementioned mail-order services. For those who need to pay by credit-card, the book can be ordered from amazon: UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/090756240X/ref=3Dsr_aps_books_1_1/202 -4574791-5154233 __________________________________ Tony Frazer Shearsman Books Ltd 58 Velwell Road Exeter EX4 4LD England Tel / Fax: (+44) (0) 1392-434511 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat May 15 21:54:23 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 21:54:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay Message-ID: <303330-22004501615423722@M2W051.mail2web.com> What stuuned the earth into noise? Askt he mole; he knows. Original Message: ----------------- From: C. E. Chaffin eliotpoe at hotmail.com Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 17:38:58 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay Ah, what must a mole excuse? Though I never believed: _Alle Katze sind grau im Dunkel._ Then I'm a doctor. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Old Mole" To: Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Martha Ronk's Plainlay | I had an Iowa Plainlay once....no, I won't go there. It's unworthy of me. | _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From hruggier at localnet.com Sun May 16 11:21:29 2004 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 11:21:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me-- more automotive poetry References: <1e5.206751c5.2dd7ac6d@aol.com> Message-ID: <005e01c43b59$76d3b2d0$2e0c9942@Helen> loving these car poems - inspires me to write one about my Chevvy Vega. which disintegrated while I was driving it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. E. Chaffin" To: Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me-- more automotive poetry > Dear Finnegan, > > Here's one over 20 years old, though it wasn't published until the late 90s > in _Pif_. > > > Resistance > > With rude clanks my tailpipe > beats the rear axle, each pothole > bruising the brake line's thin artery > until it bleeds on the transmission housing. > The brake pedal gives up the ghost > and falls to the mat. Diagnosis: > broken muffler strap. > > In the auto parts store > butts crawl along the baseboards, > fluorescent lights superilluminate > racks of chrome accessories, > the book of life is opened, > my need indexed: one > 40" brakeline for a '68 Skylark. > > Supine on a creeper > in the chassis' catacombs > rust sprinkles my face in gritty showers, > fallout from the slow bomb of time. > Damn! A bleeder valve breaks! > Can we finish? > > John crawls underneath > and like a glass blower > twists the new conduit in place. > He turns the valves, I pump the brakes. > Red fluid squirts until no bubbles show. > The pedal firms, pumps back and > its resistance feels like heaven. > > > (written while a poor intern who still had to fix his own brakes.) > > > --CE > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JforJames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Garrison & Me > > > ********************************** > > Obligatory Disclaimer: > First published in 1991 (ouch) which means > it's at least 15 years old at this point. > Talk about dredged up from the depths... > Finnegan > --- > > Hard River > > > I pulled back > the jaundiced curtains > of the room rented > for four weeks in Wichita. > I didn't care > that the only thing I could see > from the window was the highway, > because I would watch the highway > the way I used to watch the river > with a six of beer and nowhere to go > after work, just watch > the cars and trucks > flow on and on, heading home > or to work or nowhere in particular, > knowing out there somewhere > someone was listening to the radio, > the same station I was listening to, > with this man talking, just talking > into space, wavelengths over furrows > in wide stretches of farmland, > knowing no one cares > about what he's saying, > still he talks and syllables and seconds > and dust settle like silt in the open air, > a child asleep across the backseat > of a car, tires throbbing over > slabs of pavement, no spare > in the trunk and four hundred miles > from here to wherever is there > on the hard river that carries them along > and if they're lucky, > takes them home. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 16 11:53:51 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 10:53:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden Message-ID: In a recent *New Yorker* Rita Dove has a fine & biting poem on Hattie McDaniel ("Hattie McDaniel Arrives at the Coconut Grove"). Reading it, I wondered if she was thinking of Robert Hayden's poem on Aunt Jemima, an old favorite of mine that ought to be anthologized more. Like many of Hayden's poems, I suppose. Aunt Jemima of the Ocean Waves I Enacting someone's notion of themselves (and me), The One And Only Aunt Jemima and Kokimo The Dixie Dancing Fool do a bally for the freak show. I watch a moment, then move on, pondering the logic that makes of them (and me) confederates of The Spider Girl, The Snake-skinned man.... Poor devils have to live somehow. I cross the boardwalk to the beach, lie in the sand and gaze beyond the clutter at the sea. II Trouble you for a light? I turn as Aunt Jemima settles down beside me, her blue-rinsed hair without the red bandanna now. I hold the lighter to her cigarette. Much obliged. Unmindful (perhaps) of my embarrassment, she looks at me and smiles: You sure do favor a friend I used to have. Guess that's why I bothered you for a light. So much like him that I-- She pauses, watching white horses rush to the shore. Way them big old waves come slamming whopping in, sometimes it's like they mean to smash this no-good world to hell. Well, it could happen. A book I read-- Crossed that very ocean years ago. London, Paris, Rome, Constantinople too--I've seen them all. Back when they billed me everywhere as the Sepia High Stepper. Crowned heads applauded me. Years before your time. Years and years. I wore me plenty diamonds then, and counts or dukes or whatever they were would fill my dressing room with the costliest flowers. But of course there was this one you resemble so. Get me? The sweetest gentleman. Dead before his time. Killed in the war to save the world for another war. High-stepping days for me were over after that. Still I'm not one to let grief idle me for long. I went out with a mental act-- mind-reading--Mysteria From The Mystic East--veils and beads and telling suckers how to get stolen rings and sweethearts back. One night he was standing by my bed, seen him plain as I see you, and warned me without a single word: Baby, quit playing with spiritual stuff. So here I am, so here I am, fake mammy to God's mistakes. And that's the beauty part, I mean, ain't that the beauty part. She laughs, but I do not, knowing what her laughter shields. And mocks. I light another cigarette for her. She smokes, not saying any more. Scream of children in the surf, adagios of sun and flashing foam, the sexual glitter, oppressive fun. . . . An antique etching comes to mind: "The Sable Venus" naked on a baroque Cellini shell--voluptuous imago floating in the wake of slave-ships on fantastic seas. Jemima sighs, Reckon I'd best be getting back. I help her up. Don't you take no wooden nickels, hear? Tin dimes neither. So long, pal. --Robert Hayden. *Collected Poems*. Ed. Frederick Glaysher. Liveright, 1985. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 16 15:58:19 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 15:58:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] bad head day Message-ID: <8c.b15859d.2dd921db@aol.com> http://www.pw.org/mag/pc_padua.htm In studying Petrarch?s remains, Professor Marin and his team hope to confirm the poet?s uncommon stature and to reconstruct his face. They are also hoping to confirm the injuries and diseases Petrarch is known to have suffered from? scabies, skin ulcers, arthritis, gout, fainting spells, and fractures from falling off a horse and dropping a heavy object on his left foot?and to learn more about his lifestyle and diet. Petrarch became a cult figure immediately following his death. Over the centuries?in 1630, 1773, and 1843?admirers have entered his tomb and stolen several of his bones: two fingers, a femur, a vertebra, and a molar. In 1873 Giovanni Canestrini, a professor of comparative anatomy at the University of Padua, was charged with recomposing Petrarch's skeleton for a final burial, but the poet's skull slipped from his grasp and smashed into hundreds of splinters on the marble floor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun May 16 17:46:10 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:46:10 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad head day References: <8c.b15859d.2dd921db@aol.com> Message-ID: <03e401c43b8f$339c4d20$621c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Poor Petrarch, and it was also terribly cold in those years, from Ruffilli's _Preparativi per la partenza_ I can quote that he left in his will a woollen vest to his friend Boccaccio "so that he could cover himself when working on his books" ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] bad head day http://www.pw.org/mag/pc_padua.htm In studying Petrarch?s remains, Professor Marin and his team hope to confirm the poet?s uncommon stature and to reconstruct his face. They are also hoping to confirm the injuries and diseases Petrarch is known to have suffered from?scabies, skin ulcers, arthritis, gout, fainting spells, and fractures from falling off a horse and dropping a heavy object on his left foot?and to learn more about his lifestyle and diet. Petrarch became a cult figure immediately following his death. Over the centuries?in 1630, 1773, and 1843?admirers have entered his tomb and stolen several of his bones: two fingers, a femur, a vertebra, and a molar. In 1873 Giovanni Canestrini, a professor of comparative anatomy at the University of Padua, was charged with recomposing Petrarch's skeleton for a final burial, but the poet's skull slipped from his grasp and smashed into hundreds of splinters on the marble floor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 16 20:30:40 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 20:30:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Haiku Basics Message-ID: <7d.4e3156a6.2dd961b0@aol.com> Date:? ? Sat, 15 May 2004 18:53:10 -0400 From:? ? deborah russell Subject: Small article - Haiku Basics http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=14028 Thanks... Deborah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 17 07:42:40 2004 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 07:42:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c43c04$13c5ea90$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: Generating narrative where it doesn't exist: Going from "card deck" to the page in the poetry of Lev Rubinstein, Robert Grenier & John Tipton Rigging poetry contests vs. assigning value -- getting in touch with our inner "Foetry" Why I use Blogger (with an aside on mail art) Dana Gioia: "I have noticed a lot of similarities between the military world & the literary world" -- Dear Dana . . . . 3 questions for the presidential debates Prageeta Sharma: Making it look easy Martin Corless-Smith: The Boise Renaissance, Part II - Space as notational The Boise Renaissance, Part I: Catherine Wagner's Macular Hole -- When Jack Spicer meets Sylvia Plath The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar John Taggart's Pastorelles - "roots work" from a master http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From Thom424 at aol.com Mon May 17 08:55:20 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 08:55:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] *new letters* interview with billy collins Message-ID: <8d.b221c7b.2dda1038@aol.com> from the *chronicle of higher education's* daily e-mail update: > MAGAZINES & JOURNALS > > A glance at the spring issue of "New Letters": Billy Collins on poetry > > All children are natural poets, but "unfortunately, our poetry > instincts often get beaten out of us by bad education and also > by that harrowing phenomenon called adolescence," says Billy > Collins in an interview with Robert Stewart, editor of the > magazine. Mr. Collins, who is the poet laureate of New York > State and a former poet laureate of the United States, is a > professor of English at Herbert H. Lehman College of the City > University of New York. > > Teachers tend to focus too much on interpretation because it is > the easiest approach, Mr. Collins says. "I've been teaching > poetry for many years, and like everyone else, I've been up > there with a piece of chalk writing 'irony' and things like that > on the blackboard," he writes. But there are better ways to > approach poetry, he says. > > Mr. Collins now encourages his students to write out by hand > poems they are studying, to learn to read the poems aloud, and > to memorize them before approaching them in an analytical way. > > He says people have returned to poetry in recent years because > they seek a kind of language that is distinct from "public > language -- the language of politics, of business, of > advertising, of journalism, and commerce." Poetry is language > with space around it, he says, language that instead of being a > continuation of noise is "an interruption of silence." > > Citing Ruth Lilly's recent gift of $100-million to "Poetry" > magazine, he writes: "If poetry makes people more thoughtful, > makes them slow down," and "connects them to the community of > human emotion -- because poetry is, after all, the history of > human emotion, and the only history we have of it -- then I say > throw as much money at it as you want." > > *** > > The interview is not online. Information about the magazine is > available at http://www.newletters.org > _________________________________________________________________ > You'll find The Chronicle's home page at: http://chronicle.com > thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 17 10:36:02 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:36:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Dennis reviewed Message-ID: A very solid, insightful review of Carl Dennis's new-and-selected in yesterday's NYTimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/16/books/review/16ORRL.html Worth mentioning because I so seldom expect good poetry reviewing from the Times. . . . I probably like Dennis's work more than reviewer David Orr does, but I think he's taken the measure of its faults and virtues. Among other things, he says: "This is public poetry that sounds private -- an achievement that's easy to underestimate." And here are the opening paragraphs: ----------------- Carl Dennis writes the kind of poetry that critics like to call ''deceptively simple'' -- which means that when it's good, it's simple, and when it's not so good, it's coy. Dennis has published eight collections, including the Pulitzer Prize-winning ''Practical Gods,'' and his ''New and Selected Poems'' includes work from each of these volumes, as well as about 40 pages of new material. Like Billy Collins, Dennis is an academic poet with his eye on a general readership; accordingly, his poems are frequently about, say, Epicurus, but they're delivered in a voice so self-deflating and ordinary guy-ish (See the poet amble along Main Street! See him buy groceries!) that it's easy to imagine the author sizing up window treatments at Home Depot. This crowd-pleasing approach puts Dennis squarely in the middle of the Great Audience Debate, in which the defenders of art for art's sake face off against the marketers of books with titles like ''101 Poems From the Heart.'' Some poets would say that Dennis's method is a good compromise, that his subtle, unpretentious work represents a necessary stage in the art form's quest for new readers. Others would tell you that the emergence of this kind of writing is yet another sign that American poetry has decided to sacrifice its fiery, iconoclastic heritage for a place beside the skim latte on the desk of the average NPR listener. As to which of these responses is the right one, the answer, as Dennis would probably agree, is rarely as simple as we think. --David Orr --------------------------- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 17 11:05:35 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 10:05:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Margaret Benbow Message-ID: Here's a poet who just recently appeared on my radar screen. Sauna That winter your rich babe joined the health club. In saunas, she and I sweated and stewed, and dryly sized each other up. Steam blue as gentians swirled between our dirty looks. My birthmark, my cesarean scar marked the hide of a sturdy prole, built to last, and I came only as high as her surly heart. She thought to herself: *peasant, shorty, mother of chubby babies*. But the hamstrings stood out in her hunter's legs. Her skin was all fired up from a decade of gutsy martinis. Her nose flipped, a miracle, a little crown princess of rhinoplasty, but nothing else was holding its own. The miles bumped down everything that youth zooms up. I thought: *Tart with dirty money, and Kohl in her crow's-feet*. I loved to watch her being massaged. The no-nonsense Finn fell on her like a mother bear, pounded her into blubbering scarlet jellies. Then, in the shower, a loofah's ape hand rubbed her raw, wiped her clean of prints. I did manic jumping-jacks while she coiled wounded in black towels, Malevola in her creepy-crawly robes. We emerged from separate exits, pale and shriven. She was swathed in Swakara lamb, her other-woman lace rag crushed to her lips, coughing, beset. I put my hands in the pockets of my poorboy sweater and walked thoughtfully home through the cold, plum blue twilight. --Margaret Benbow. *Stalking Joy*. Texas Tech UP, 1997. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 17 11:45:54 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:45:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Margaret Benbow References: Message-ID: <003b01c43c26$0b3eb7e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Margaret BenbowLiked, didn't love. There are some really nice moments of language and description, no surprises -- and, I kept thinking as I read it, not the possibility of surprise. What could happen? She'd find an unexpected sisterhood under the skin, she wouldn't. I prefer the "she wouldn't" direction that the poem took, but those still seemed to me to be the parameters. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Margaret Benbow Here's a poet who just recently appeared on my radar screen. Sauna That winter your rich babe joined the health club. In saunas, she and I sweated and stewed, and dryly sized each other up. Steam blue as gentians swirled between our dirty looks. My birthmark, my cesarean scar marked the hide of a sturdy prole, built to last, and I came only as high as her surly heart. She thought to herself: *peasant, shorty, mother of chubby babies*. But the hamstrings stood out in her hunter's legs. Her skin was all fired up from a decade of gutsy martinis. Her nose flipped, a miracle, a little crown princess of rhinoplasty, but nothing else was holding its own. The miles bumped down everything that youth zooms up. I thought: *Tart with dirty money, and Kohl in her crow's-feet*. I loved to watch her being massaged. The no-nonsense Finn fell on her like a mother bear, pounded her into blubbering scarlet jellies. Then, in the shower, a loofah's ape hand rubbed her raw, wiped her clean of prints. I did manic jumping-jacks while she coiled wounded in black towels, Malevola in her creepy-crawly robes. We emerged from separate exits, pale and shriven. She was swathed in Swakara lamb, her other-woman lace rag crushed to her lips, coughing, beset. I put my hands in the pockets of my poorboy sweater and walked thoughtfully home through the cold, plum blue twilight. --Margaret Benbow. *Stalking Joy*. Texas Tech UP, 1997. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 17 13:55:45 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:55:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] About my poem again Message-ID: <7e.4e7e1d1d.2dda56a1@aol.com> http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/ Today, Monday May 17th, is the day Garrison Keillor reads "Hard River" on his very short radio segment 'The Writer's Almanac'. It can be heard on RealAudio thru the webpage listed above. Begging your indulgence, Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 17 14:27:19 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:27:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About my poem again References: <7e.4e7e1d1d.2dda56a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <006501c43c3c$984157e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Congratulations again, Jim, One could see why Keillor liked it - and I thought he read it well, with a good sense of why it mattered. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] About my poem again http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/ Today, Monday May 17th, is the day Garrison Keillor reads "Hard River" on his very short radio segment 'The Writer's Almanac'. It can be heard on RealAudio thru the webpage listed above. Begging your indulgence, Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 17 16:05:28 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 14:05:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Text message Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: belzopsrnt.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1430 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Document.zip Type: application/octet-stream Size: 21912 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon May 17 16:11:15 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 22:11:15 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] About my poem again References: <7e.4e7e1d1d.2dda56a1@aol.com> <006501c43c3c$984157e0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <001501c43c4b$1c73c760$e11c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> I agree with The Old Mole who knows everything in the Meadow, and yes, read by Keillor it revealed to me his side while mine was more with your existentialism, and Keillor appreciated and thanked you for mentioning that radio voice, at least this is the way I see it all. Take care, Anny From: The Old Mole Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 8:27 PM Congratulations again, Jim, One could see why Keillor liked it - and I thought he read it well, with a good sense of why it mattered. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] About my poem again http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/ Today, Monday May 17th, is the day Garrison Keillor reads "Hard River" on his very short radio segment 'The Writer's Almanac'. It can be heard on RealAudio thru the webpage listed above. Begging your indulgence, Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Mon May 17 21:04:51 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:04:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] About my poem again References: <7e.4e7e1d1d.2dda56a1@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Finnegan, In my schema, a true logopoem. Reads well on the page and out loud. I thought Keillor a little droll in his reading, but I think that a Midwestern trait. The "furrows" line with "wavelengths" really worked well, as well as your anaphora, like a car starting, of which Eliot was very fond. Congrats again! CE ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 12:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] About my poem again http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/ Today, Monday May 17th, is the day Garrison Keillor reads "Hard River" on his very short radio segment 'The Writer's Almanac'. It can be heard on RealAudio thru the webpage listed above. Begging your indulgence, Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Mon May 17 21:21:44 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:21:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] *new letters* interview with billy collins References: <8d.b221c7b.2dda1038@aol.com> Message-ID: Who am I to disagree with Billy? Nevertheless, all children are not natural poets, but all have the natural ability to enjoy poetry. The main thing is to have parents read it to them, from Lewis Carroll to Shel Silverstein, and never forget "Good Night, Moon." "He says people have returned to poetry in recent years because they seek a kind of language that is distinct from "public language -- the language of politics, of business, of advertising, of journalism, and commerce." Poetry is language with space around it, he says, language that instead of being a continuation of noise is 'an interruption of silence.'" This quote is just a little self-serving, I'm afraid, as we know Billy writes poetry as if he were whispering to another person by his own admission. And people are starved for intimacy, which his voice provides. I like to offer a supplemental thought: People don't read poetry today because it has so little to say to them. I trained as a heavyweight boxer among other things. I think Billy's poetry akin to "chin music." No knockout punch. But God bless him for being popular, an incredible feat in today's market. And he's easy to enjoy, yet destined to be a minor poet, well-loved, but not able to enter the language because he is not quotable. My new essay goes into this in a bit more detail, but I'll save that link for publication next month. --CE MAGAZINES & JOURNALS A glance at the spring issue of "New Letters": Billy Collins on poetry All children are natural poets, but "unfortunately, our poetry instincts often get beaten out of us by bad education and also by that harrowing phenomenon called adolescence," says Billy Collins in an interview with Robert Stewart, editor of the magazine. Mr. Collins, who is the poet laureate of New York State and a former poet laureate of the United States, is a professor of English at Herbert H. Lehman College of the City University of New York. Teachers tend to focus too much on interpretation because it is the easiest approach, Mr. Collins says. "I've been teaching poetry for many years, and like everyone else, I've been up there with a piece of chalk writing 'irony' and things like that on the blackboard," he writes. But there are better ways to approach poetry, he says. Mr. Collins now encourages his students to write out by hand poems they are studying, to learn to read the poems aloud, and to memorize them before approaching them in an analytical way. He says people have returned to poetry in recent years because they seek a kind of language that is distinct from "public language -- the language of politics, of business, of advertising, of journalism, and commerce." Poetry is language with space around it, he says, language that instead of being a continuation of noise is "an interruption of silence." Citing Ruth Lilly's recent gift of $100-million to "Poetry" magazine, he writes: "If poetry makes people more thoughtful, makes them slow down," and "connects them to the community of human emotion -- because poetry is, after all, the history of human emotion, and the only history we have of it -- then I say throw as much money at it as you want." *** The interview is not online. Information about the magazine is available at http://www.newletters.org _________________________________________________________________ You'll find The Chronicle's home page at: http://chronicle.com thom tammaro moorhead, mn From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 18 06:25:27 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:25:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] *new letters* interview with billy collins References: <8d.b221c7b.2dda1038@aol.com> Message-ID: <006101c43cc2$722b9f80$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Who am I to disagree with Billy? > > Nevertheless, all children are not natural poets, but all have the natural > ability to enjoy poetry. I agree with the first part of this. In fact, I'd say that most children are not natural poets, except in the limited sense that they can make rhymes, as can most adults. The second part is right except that one can just about never use "all." > The main thing is to have parents read it to them, from Lewis Carroll to > Shel Silverstein, and never forget "Good Night, Moon." Have someone say poems to them, which would be hard to avoid. > "He says people have returned to poetry in recent years because > they seek a kind of language that is distinct from "public > language -- the language of politics, of business, of > advertising, of journalism, and commerce." Poetry is language > with space around it, he says, language that instead of being a > continuation of noise is 'an interruption of silence.'" > > This quote is just a little self-serving, I'm afraid, as we know Billy > writes poetry as if he were whispering to another person by his own > admission. And people are starved for intimacy, which his voice provides. I don't think people are returning to poetry, but I think Collins gives an okay reason for art--its providing chapels. "An interruption of silence" makes little sense to me. More an interruption of the quotidian--when the poet tries to go beyond the quotidian. > I like to offer a supplemental thought: People don't read poetry today > because it has so little to say to them. I disagree. They don't read it because most of them lack what it takes to enjoy it, for whatever reason. For the same reason, they don't read mathematical treatises. > I trained as a heavyweight boxer among other things. I think Billy's poetry > akin to "chin music." No knockout punch. But God bless him for being > popular, an incredible feat in today's market. Well, for being popular without being a truly bad poet. >And he's easy to enjoy, yet > destined to be a minor poet, well-loved, but not able to enter the language > because he is not quotable. My new essay goes into this in a bit more > detail, but I'll save that link for publication next month. I wonder if he'll become a minor poet. The problem with writing Iowa plainlays at this time is that so many others are writing them, one's chance of being considered worth even minor attention fifty or a hundred years from now is slim. Certainly, he is not now nor will he ever be considered, a major poet. The problem with writing songmode poetry (formal verse) now is that so many others have written it, one's chance of being considered worth even minor attention fifty or a hundred years from now is slim. That's the one advantage of doing something new in an art, whatever it is. I claim that a poet no more talented than a Billy Collins but who does something significantly unusual in his poetry would become considered major, albeit--given the power of today's poetry establishment--not till long after he's dead. --Bob G. > --CE > > > > > MAGAZINES & JOURNALS > > A glance at the spring issue of "New Letters": Billy Collins on poetry > > All children are natural poets, but "unfortunately, our poetry > instincts often get beaten out of us by bad education and also > by that harrowing phenomenon called adolescence," says Billy > Collins in an interview with Robert Stewart, editor of the > magazine. Mr. Collins, who is the poet laureate of New York > State and a former poet laureate of the United States, is a > professor of English at Herbert H. Lehman College of the City > University of New York. > > Teachers tend to focus too much on interpretation because it is > the easiest approach, Mr. Collins says. "I've been teaching > poetry for many years, and like everyone else, I've been up > there with a piece of chalk writing 'irony' and things like that > on the blackboard," he writes. But there are better ways to > approach poetry, he says. > > Mr. Collins now encourages his students to write out by hand > poems they are studying, to learn to read the poems aloud, and > to memorize them before approaching them in an analytical way. > > He says people have returned to poetry in recent years because > they seek a kind of language that is distinct from "public > language -- the language of politics, of business, of > advertising, of journalism, and commerce." Poetry is language > with space around it, he says, language that instead of being a > continuation of noise is "an interruption of silence." > > Citing Ruth Lilly's recent gift of $100-million to "Poetry" > magazine, he writes: "If poetry makes people more thoughtful, > makes them slow down," and "connects them to the community of > human emotion -- because poetry is, after all, the history of > human emotion, and the only history we have of it -- then I say > throw as much money at it as you want." > > *** > > The interview is not online. Information about the magazine is > available at http://www.newletters.org > _________________________________________________________________ > You'll find The Chronicle's home page at: http://chronicle.com > > > > > thom tammaro > moorhead, mn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue May 18 07:50:38 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:50:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Gunderson, "To See a Thing" Message-ID: To See a Thing To see a think really to see any thing is enough. This is not Kant and his noumena for they are always unseeable. It is more like Basho knowing the monkey also wants a small straw cloak during the first winter rain. It is more like that sort of thing. It is not at all Berkeley and his mindy metaphysics. No, it is more like Buson seeing the setting sun tread on the tail of the copper pheasant. It is more like that sort of thing. It is not Wittgenstein showing the fly the way out of the fly-bottle nor is it to see God or even the Buddha. It is more like seeing grasses bend pulling the wind downwars making a wind-space. Yes, it is more like that sort of thing. It is to know that not world nor talk but the eyes have changed. It is not even as complicated as satori, but it is enough. --Keith Gunderson fr. To See a Thing [Minneapolis: Nodin Press, 1975] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2136 bytes Desc: not available URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue May 18 08:04:12 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:04:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poems by others: Keith Gunderson, "To See a Thing" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry about the typos. Hal Responsible for typographical terrorists. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ===== > To See a Thing > > To see > a thing > really > to see > any thing > is enough. > This is > not Kant > and his noumena > for they > are always > unseeable. > It is more > like Basho > knowing > the monkey > also wants > a small > straw cloak > during > the first > winter rain. > It is more > like > that sort > of thing. > It is not > at all > Berkeley > and his > mindy metaphysics. > No, it is more > like Buson > seeing > the setting sun > tread on the tail > of the > copper pheasant. > It is more > like > that sort > of thing. > It is not Wittgenstein > showing the fly > the way > out of > the fly-bottle > nor is it > to see God > or even > the Buddha. > It is more > like seeing > grasses bend > pulling > the wind > downwards > making > a wind-space. > Yes, it is more > like > that sort > of thing. > It is > to know > that > not world > nor talk > but the eyes > have changed. > It is > not even > as complicated > as satori, > but it > is enough. > > --Keith Gunderson > > > fr. To See a Thing > [Minneapolis: Nodin Press, 1975] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 18 10:07:44 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:07:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] *new letters* interview with billy collins Message-ID: <63340-22004521814744824@M2W061.mail2web.com> I couldn't do what Billy does, just because it wouldn't be me (the writing out by hand). I'm glad that he does it, though. The more different ways that people find to teach, and to get across their love for poetry, the better. I recommend to everyone "The Last of the Metrozoids," in the second-to-current New Yorker. Original Message: ----------------- From: C. E. Chaffin eliotpoe at hotmail.com Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:21:44 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] *new letters* interview with billy collins Who am I to disagree with Billy? Nevertheless, all children are not natural poets, but all have the natural ability to enjoy poetry. The main thing is to have parents read it to them, from Lewis Carroll to Shel Silverstein, and never forget "Good Night, Moon." "He says people have returned to poetry in recent years because they seek a kind of language that is distinct from "public language -- the language of politics, of business, of advertising, of journalism, and commerce." Poetry is language with space around it, he says, language that instead of being a continuation of noise is 'an interruption of silence.'" This quote is just a little self-serving, I'm afraid, as we know Billy writes poetry as if he were whispering to another person by his own admission. And people are starved for intimacy, which his voice provides. I like to offer a supplemental thought: People don't read poetry today because it has so little to say to them. I trained as a heavyweight boxer among other things. I think Billy's poetry akin to "chin music." No knockout punch. But God bless him for being popular, an incredible feat in today's market. And he's easy to enjoy, yet destined to be a minor poet, well-loved, but not able to enter the language because he is not quotable. My new essay goes into this in a bit more detail, but I'll save that link for publication next month. --CE MAGAZINES & JOURNALS A glance at the spring issue of "New Letters": Billy Collins on poetry All children are natural poets, but "unfortunately, our poetry instincts often get beaten out of us by bad education and also by that harrowing phenomenon called adolescence," says Billy Collins in an interview with Robert Stewart, editor of the magazine. Mr. Collins, who is the poet laureate of New York State and a former poet laureate of the United States, is a professor of English at Herbert H. Lehman College of the City University of New York. Teachers tend to focus too much on interpretation because it is the easiest approach, Mr. Collins says. "I've been teaching poetry for many years, and like everyone else, I've been up there with a piece of chalk writing 'irony' and things like that on the blackboard," he writes. But there are better ways to approach poetry, he says. Mr. Collins now encourages his students to write out by hand poems they are studying, to learn to read the poems aloud, and to memorize them before approaching them in an analytical way. He says people have returned to poetry in recent years because they seek a kind of language that is distinct from "public language -- the language of politics, of business, of advertising, of journalism, and commerce." Poetry is language with space around it, he says, language that instead of being a continuation of noise is "an interruption of silence." Citing Ruth Lilly's recent gift of $100-million to "Poetry" magazine, he writes: "If poetry makes people more thoughtful, makes them slow down," and "connects them to the community of human emotion -- because poetry is, after all, the history of human emotion, and the only history we have of it -- then I say throw as much money at it as you want." *** The interview is not online. Information about the magazine is available at http://www.newletters.org _________________________________________________________________ You'll find The Chronicle's home page at: http://chronicle.com thom tammaro moorhead, mn _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 18 11:10:40 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:10:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Censorship Message-ID: <57050-22004521815104031@M2W063.mail2web.com> Has anyone posted this link yet? If not...here it is. Scary reading. http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpO PN62051504.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 18 12:54:04 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:54:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry, teacher, & free speech slammed Message-ID: <1ed.20e13685.2ddb99ac@aol.com> http://www.n-jcenter.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials/03OpOPN62 051504.htm>http://www.n-jcenter.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorials /03OpOPN62051504.htm Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical By BILL HILL Last update: 15 May 2004 Bill Nevins, a New Mexico high school teacher and personal friend, was fired last year and classes in poetry and the poetry club at Rio Rancho High School were permanently terminated. It had nothing to do with obscenity, but it had everything to do with extremist politics. The "Slam Team" was a group of teenage poets who asked Nevins to serve as faculty adviser to their club. The teens, mostly shy youngsters, were taught to read their poetry aloud and before audiences. Rio Rancho High School gave the Slam Team access to the school's closed-circuit television once a week and the poets thrived. In March 2003, a teenage girl named Courtney presented one of her poems before an audience at Barnes & Noble bookstore in Albuquerque, then read the poem live on the school's closed-circuit television channel. A school military liaison and the high school principal accused the girl of being "un-American" because she criticized the war in Iraq and the Bush administration's failure to give substance to its "No child left behind" education policy. The girl's mother, also a teacher, was ordered by the principal to destroy the child's poetry. The mother refused and may lose her job. Bill Nevins was suspended for not censoring the poetry of his students. Remember, there is no obscenity to be found in any of the poetry. He was later fired by the principal. After firing Nevins and terminating the teaching and reading of poetry in the school, the principal and the military liaison read a poem of their own as they raised the flag outside the school. When the principal had the flag at full staff, he applauded the action he'd taken in concert with the military liaison. Then to all students and faculty who did not share his political opinions, the principal shouted: "Shut your faces." What a wonderful lesson he gave those 3,000 students at the largest public high school in New Mexico. In his mind, only certain opinions are to be allowed. But more was to come. Posters done by art students were ordered torn down, even though none was termed obscene. Some were satirical, implicating a national policy that had led us into war. Art teachers who refused to rip down the posters on display in their classrooms were not given contracts to return to the school in this current school year. The message is plain. Critical thinking, questioning of public policies and freedom of speech are not to be allowed to anyone who does not share the thinking of the school principal. The teachers union has been joined in a legal action against the school by the National Writers Union, headquartered in New York City. NWU's at-large representative Samantha Clark lives and works in Albuquerque. The American Civil Liberties Union has become the legal arm of the lawsuit pending in federal court. Meanwhile, Nevins applied for a teaching post in another school and was offered the job but he can't go to work until Rio Rancho's principal sends the new school Nevins' credentials. The principal has refused to do so, and that adds yet another issue to the lawsuit, which is awaiting a trial date. While students are denied poetry readings, poetry clubs and classes in poetry, Nevins works elsewhere and writes his own poetry. Writers and editors who have spent years translating essays, films, poems, scientific articles and books by Iranian, North Korean and Sudanese authors have been warned not to do so by the U.S. Treasury Department under penalty of fine and imprisonment. Publishers and film producers are not allowed to edit works authored by writers in those nations. The Bush administration contends doing so has the effect of trading with the enemy, despite a 1988 law that exempts published materials from sanction under trade rules. Robert Bovenschulte, president of the American Chemical Society, is challenging the rule interpretation by violating it to edit into English several scientific papers from Iran. Are book burnings next? Hill is a retired News-Journal reporter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 18 16:03:50 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:03:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry, teacher, & free speech slammed References: <1ed.20e13685.2ddb99ac@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d401c43d13$3eb92310$20efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hard lessons from poetry class: Speech is free unless it's critical Like calling some blameless poetry-lover a "verosopath?" --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 18 20:50:37 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 20:50:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <78.57624e98.2ddc095d@aol.com> List people, FYI...I noticed a message in the Archive which was sent nominally by 'JforJames' but was in fact not my message (re: Text Message). It was obviously one of those stolen address book emails...but the strange thing was it actually seemed to get thru to the NP List. I never saw the post...did others see it? (Please backchannel.) My tech support person (the ever-patient Len) advises me as follows (see below). I think until this summer, all should Be Careful (Caveat Emailor) of anything that comes thru the list with an attachment. Jim Finnegan -- Hey, Jim. I've cleared away that error condition, as well as the backlog of spams awaiting you.? I'm also getting the wormy txt message out of the archive, so that'll be okay. Now, for the short term (this summer) you've two choices: either risk that another spoofed message will get through to the list membership, or take control of all postings, vet them, and pass along only those that are bonafide.? If you choose the latter, you'll need to change the list's settings on the admin website, and then you'll want to tell your members what's up, making sure they understand the reason for this. Middle term (late this summer), I'll be shifting the server for all our CATH-hosted lists, and with that change we'll be putting up (at long last) some better barriers to spammers and viroids; once those are in place you could try out the new constraints to see if the list might be allowed to go back to un-moderated status. Hang in there--things should be considerably better on this front by fall. Best, -- ? ? ? ...Len Len Hatfield English/CATH Virginia Tech -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue May 18 22:13:40 2004 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:13:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs In-Reply-To: <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> Myers-Briggs. I'm an -- otherwise known as a "champion idealist": http://keirsey.com/personality/nfep.html Gabe At 12:09 PM 4/28/2004, kpaul mallasch wrote: >As a side note, does anyone know their Meyers Briggs personality type? We >had to do it at work and I came out an INFP - the same as shakespeare, >Saint John and others ;) > >-kpaul From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 18 22:15:30 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:15:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Negative Capability by Y. Komunyakaa Message-ID: NEGATIVE CAPABILITY The honeysuckle vines are certain They'll be here tomorrow morning, Unhushed scent reaching into next month, As I rest the scythe against a stump To sharpen the curved blade. Their green surety. My uncertainty: That pain in the chest could return In the middle of this job, a ferryman Singing One more river to cross. A miracle defines itself. I love What doesn't reveal every seam, Every droplet--when doubt owns tongue & clitoris, heart & penis. I love Mystery, & hope I never touch naked Threads of reason to answer the slimy, Clueless snout probing the dark. --YUSEF KOMUNYAKAA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Tue May 18 22:30:09 2004 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:30:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> Well, mine's an odd one for someone who thinks of himself as a poet: I'm an iNTp (otherwise known as an architect)--http://keirsey.com/personality/ntip.html My forebears and soul-mates are George Washington, Einstein, and Darwin. Hm. Any other iNTp's out there on New -Poetry? Bill Morgan At 09:13 PM 5/18/2004, you wrote: >Myers-Briggs. I'm an -- otherwise known as a "champion idealist": >http://keirsey.com/personality/nfep.html > >Gabe >At 12:09 PM 4/28/2004, kpaul mallasch wrote: >>As a side note, does anyone know their Meyers Briggs personality type? We >>had to do it at work and I came out an INFP - the same as shakespeare, >>Saint John and others ;) >> >>-kpaul > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Tue May 18 23:10:16 2004 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:10:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] more automotive poetry In-Reply-To: <005e01c43b59$76d3b2d0$2e0c9942@Helen> References: <1e5.206751c5.2dd7ac6d@aol.com> <005e01c43b59$76d3b2d0$2e0c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040518215941.01bdcc68@mail.ilstu.edu> At 10:21 AM 5/16/2004, you wrote: >loving these car poems - inspires me to write one about my Chevvy Vega. >which disintegrated while I was driving it. An old one of mine, on the occasion of my son coming back to live with me: Cecil He arrived in a '74 Celica, front seat loose, rusty floorboards, bad steering--you name it. When he tugged free of the thing, I was glad to see all of him separate, standing full length, stretching there in the driveway-- outside that green metal capsule. "My God, you're huge," I said, and we laughed and hugged. A week later, over coffee, I proposed a trade-- new life, fresh start, no?-- and, well, father would like to feel like his kid's in a car, not a minefield. Looking out the window, he agreed to the plan, but no question I had misread him: On the way to the dealer, he told me later, he had stroked Cecil's dashboard telling him not to fret: "It's OK--and thanks," he said to the old car, "not to worry, it's all right-- you're going to be an organ donor." --Bill Morgan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 18 23:10:36 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 23:10:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <004301c43d4e$dcab3e10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Guardian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs > Well, mine's an odd one for someone who thinks of himself as a > poet: I'm an iNTp (otherwise known as an > architect)--http://keirsey.com/personality/ntip.html > > My forebears and soul-mates are George Washington, Einstein, and > Darwin. Hm. Any other iNTp's out there on New -Poetry? > > Bill > Morgan > > At 09:13 PM 5/18/2004, you wrote: > >Myers-Briggs. I'm an -- otherwise known as a "champion idealist": > >http://keirsey.com/personality/nfep.html > > > >Gabe > >At 12:09 PM 4/28/2004, kpaul mallasch wrote: > >>As a side note, does anyone know their Meyers Briggs personality type? We > >>had to do it at work and I came out an INFP - the same as shakespeare, > >>Saint John and others ;) > >> > >>-kpaul > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Tue May 18 23:15:42 2004 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 22:15:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs In-Reply-To: <004301c43d4e$dcab3e10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> <004301c43d4e$dcab3e10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040518221327.01c01720@mail.ilstu.edu> For any of you who may not know what we're talking about, there's a quick Myers-Briggs test at: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm Takes about 10 mins to find out your "type." At 10:10 PM 5/18/2004, you wrote: >Guardian. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:30 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs > > > > Well, mine's an odd one for someone who thinks of himself as a > > poet: I'm an iNTp (otherwise known as an > > architect)--http://keirsey.com/personality/ntip.html > > > > My forebears and soul-mates are George Washington, Einstein, and > > Darwin. Hm. Any other iNTp's out there on New -Poetry? > > > > >Bill > > Morgan > > > > At 09:13 PM 5/18/2004, you wrote: > > >Myers-Briggs. I'm an -- otherwise known as a "champion idealist": > > >http://keirsey.com/personality/nfep.html > > > > > >Gabe > > >At 12:09 PM 4/28/2004, kpaul mallasch wrote: > > >>As a side note, does anyone know their Meyers Briggs personality type? >We > > >>had to do it at work and I came out an INFP - the same as shakespeare, > > >>Saint John and others ;) > > >> > > >>-kpaul > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue May 18 23:40:47 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 23:40:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <50CF64A6-A946-11D8-A314-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Tuesday, May 18, 2004, at 10:30 PM, Bill Morgan wrote: > Well, mine's an odd one for someone who thinks of himself as a > poet: I'm an iNTp (otherwise known as an > architect)--http://keirsey.com/personality/ntip.html > > My forebears and soul-mates are George Washington, Einstein, > and Darwin. Hm. Any other iNTp's out there on New -Poetry? > Yep. This is not a very fine sieve, and I wouldn't take it too personally. The Myers-Briggs folks never had a chance to test the people they claim as archetypes, and their guess about how Darwin came to be Darwin, say, is worth next to nothing. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu -------------------------- We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered. Tom Stoppard From tedmacker at yahoo.com Wed May 19 00:00:10 2004 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Teddy Macker) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs In-Reply-To: <200405181140.i4IBe7XE020005@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Are we all on Candid Camera? I'm waiting for someone to interrupt this episode and assure me Bob Grumann is a hoax. Are you serious Bob? Are you bandying about the phrase "Iowa Plainlay" with a straight face? Sounds like a title for a cut-rate skin flick. It's abundantly clear your arguing stems in an unrivalled case of sour grapes. I am 26 year old poet with omnivirous taste; I like conservative stuff, I like edgy stuff, I like the in-between. And I see no reason why one should make one approach seem more legitimate than the other. Mainly what I care about is-- Does it move me? Plain and simple. Everything else is for hucksters. And for you to insinuate that a poet who's not using brackets, non-sequiturs, staccato incoherences, or mathematical equations is somehow stodgy or not history-worthy is a steaming load of donkey shit. Yes, we know: 'Making it new' is important. Yes, great. Fine. But it's only part of it. It's much harder to actually move someone, Bob. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tedmacker at yahoo.com Wed May 19 00:02:49 2004 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Teddy Macker) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs In-Reply-To: <200405181140.i4IBe7XE020005@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20040519040249.33449.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Are we all on Candid Camera? I'm waiting for someone to interrupt this episode and assure me Bob Grumann is a hoax. Are you serious Bob? Are you bandying about the phrase "Iowa Plainlay" with a straight face? Sounds like a title for a cut-rate skin flick. It's abundantly clear your arguing stems in an unrivalled case of sour grapes. I am 26 year old poet with omnivirous taste; I like conservative stuff, I like edgy stuff, I like the in-between. And I see no reason why one should make one approach seem more legitimate than the other. Mainly what I care about is-- Does it move me? Plain and simple. Everything else is for hucksters. And for you to insinuate that a poet who's not using brackets, non-sequiturs, staccato incoherences, or mathematical equations is somehow stodgy or not history-worthy is a steaming load of donkey shit. Yes, we know: 'Making it new' is important. Yes, great. Fine. But it's only part of it. It's much harder to actually move someone, Bob. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tedmacker at yahoo.com Wed May 19 00:11:55 2004 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Teddy Macker) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2213 - 8 msgs In-Reply-To: <200405190258.i4J2w2XE027182@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20040519041155.64182.qmail@web11506.mail.yahoo.com> I take back only one thing: my spelling of omnivorous. Delirious urgency makes for knuckle-headed spelling. Teddy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Wed May 19 01:58:42 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 00:58:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> <004301c43d4e$dcab3e10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518221327.01c01720@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Well, it looks to me like you've all gone Enquirer here. It's narcissism that feeds these self-portraits. The best personality test is the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory II. Find that online and you will not have such a horoscope. Unfortunately, it needs to be interpreted by an expert, not a computer program. Wake up, folks. Be yourselves. You have no choice. Quit wishing for justification of your traits. 75% genetics, 25% environment. My medical shibboleth. Forgive the dour nature of this response, I rejoice in the carnival joy of trying a system to tell us who we already are. I like to read my horoscope, too. And yes, I've studied Jung. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs | For any of you who may not know what we're talking about, there's a quick | Myers-Briggs test at: | | http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm | | Takes about 10 mins to find out your "type." | | | At 10:10 PM 5/18/2004, you wrote: | >Guardian. | > | > | >----- Original Message ----- | >From: "Bill Morgan" | >To: | >Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:30 PM | >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs | > | > | > > Well, mine's an odd one for someone who thinks of himself as a | > > poet: I'm an iNTp (otherwise known as an | > > architect)--http://keirsey.com/personality/ntip.html | > > | > > My forebears and soul-mates are George Washington, Einstein, and | > > Darwin. Hm. Any other iNTp's out there on New -Poetry? | > > | > > | >Bill | > > Morgan | > > | > > At 09:13 PM 5/18/2004, you wrote: | > > >Myers-Briggs. I'm an -- otherwise known as a "champion idealist": | > > >http://keirsey.com/personality/nfep.html | > > > | > > >Gabe | > > >At 12:09 PM 4/28/2004, kpaul mallasch wrote: | > > >>As a side note, does anyone know their Meyers Briggs personality type? | >We | > > >>had to do it at work and I came out an INFP - the same as shakespeare, | > > >>Saint John and others ;) | > > >> | > > >>-kpaul | > > > | > > >_______________________________________________ | > > >New-Poetry mailing list | > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | > > | > > | > > | > > _______________________________________________ | > > New-Poetry mailing list | > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | > > | > | > | >_______________________________________________ | >New-Poetry mailing list | >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Wed May 19 02:01:30 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:01:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Negative Capability by Y. Komunyakaa References: Message-ID: Clich? with body parts to justify it. Ecch. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Negative Capability by Y. Komunyakaa NEGATIVE CAPABILITY The honeysuckle vines are certain They'll be here tomorrow morning, Unhushed scent reaching into next month, As I rest the scythe against a stump To sharpen the curved blade. Their green surety. My uncertainty: That pain in the chest could return In the middle of this job, a ferryman Singing One more river to cross. A miracle defines itself. I love What doesn't reveal every seam, Every droplet--when doubt owns tongue & clitoris, heart & penis. I love Mystery, & hope I never touch naked Threads of reason to answer the slimy, Clueless snout probing the dark. --YUSEF KOMUNYAKAA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Wed May 19 02:03:07 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 01:03:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Gunderson, "To See a Thing" References: Message-ID: Fuck him and the horse he road in on. To disrespect philosophy in such a short poem, without displaying the work toward the timeless moment, as Eliot does in his 4Q, is ultimately adolescent. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Gunderson, "To See a Thing" | | To See a Thing | | To see | a think | really | to see | any thing | is enough. | This is | not Kant | and his noumena | for they | are always | unseeable. | It is more | like Basho | knowing | the monkey | also wants | a small | straw cloak | during | the first | winter rain. | It is more | like | that sort | of thing. | It is not | at all | Berkeley | and his | mindy metaphysics. | No, it is more | like Buson | seeing | the setting sun | tread on the tail | of the | copper pheasant. | It is more | like | that sort | of thing. | It is not Wittgenstein | showing the fly | the way | out of | the fly-bottle | nor is it | to see God | or even | the Buddha. | It is more | like seeing | grasses bend | pulling | the wind | downwars | making | a wind-space. | Yes, it is more | like | that sort | of thing. | It is | to know | that | not world | nor talk | but the eyes | have changed. | It is | not even | as complicated | as satori, | but it | is enough. | | --Keith Gunderson | | | fr. To See a Thing | [Minneapolis: Nodin Press, 1975] | | Hal | | Halvard Johnson | =============== | email: halvard at earthlink.net | website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard | | From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 06:14:55 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:14:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Are we all on Candid Camera? I'm waiting for someone to interrupt this episode and assure me Bob Grumann is a hoax. Are you serious Bob? Are you bandying about the phrase "Iowa Plainlay" with a straight face? Sounds like a title for a cut-rate skin flick. Yes, I'm serious, Ted. And it's "Bob Grumman." It has been difficult to find a term for what is commonly called "Iowa Workshop Poem." I decided "Iowa Plainlay" was the best I could think of, so have gone with it in spite of its tendency to be taken as sexual by teen-aged boys of all ages. I'm still working on it, though. It's abundantly clear your arguing stems in an unrivalled case of sour grapes. Of course. No other possible explanation. I am 26 year old poet with omnivirous taste; I like conservative stuff, I like edgy stuff, I like the in-between. And I see no reason why one should make one approach seem more legitimate than the other. Mainly what I care about is-- Does it move me? Plain and simple. Everything else is for hucksters. And for you to insinuate that a poet who's not using brackets, non-sequiturs, staccato incoherences, or mathematical equations is somehow stodgy or not history-worthy is a steaming load of donkey shit. Yes, we know: 'Making it new' is important. Yes, great. Fine. But it's only part of it. It's much harder to actually move someone, Bob. Well, not as hard as getting a person not euiped with a full set of brain-cells to think. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 06:21:38 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:21:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> <004301c43d4e$dcab3e10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518221327.01c01720@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00a801c43d8b$13e96d70$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Well, it looks to me like you've all gone Enquirer here. Nah, it's just funning around, CE, like I do when I tell people I'm the wave of the future because I'm an Aquarius. > It's narcissism that feeds these self-portraits. > The best personality test is the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory > II. Find that online and you will not have such a horoscope. > Unfortunately, it needs to be interpreted by an expert, not a computer > program. And even then is of limited value. > Wake up, folks. Be yourselves. You have no choice. > > Quit wishing for justification of your traits. > > 75% genetics, 25% environment. > My medical shibboleth. My non-medical shibboleth is 99% genetics, 1% environment. > Forgive the dour nature of this response, I rejoice in the carnival joy of > trying a system to tell us who we already are. > > I like to read my horoscope, too. And yes, I've studied Jung. Now, you're taking it right! --Bob G., off to take the computer test. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 06:23:09 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:23:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Negative Capability by Y. Komunyakaa References: Message-ID: <00bc01c43d8b$4a26ecf0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Clich? with body parts to justify it. Ecch. --CE Not sure I agree completely with the "Ecch," but didn't like the sentimental anti-rationality of its message. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 06:26:22 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:26:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> <004301c43d4e$dcab3e10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518221327.01c01720@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00e701c43d8b$bcd83150$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> The very first question stopped me: do I feel at ease in a crowd? I dunno--what kind of crowd? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 06:50:11 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:50:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: personality types -- Myers-Briggs References: <113.31ebdac3.2dbf91a4@aol.com> <008a01c42c9b$c0c9a510$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040427220958.C27984@kpaul.spinweb.net> <00d001c42d0f$7ea5f020$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040428120822.C24191@kpaul.spinweb.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040518210848.01f3c558@mail.ilstu.edu> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518212338.01c64640@mail.ilstu.edu> <004301c43d4e$dcab3e10$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <6.0.2.0.2.20040518221327.01c01720@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00f901c43d8f$1116a190$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Ridiculously simplistic test. I believe I was unable to answer about half the questions with any accuracy since "somewhere in the middle" was not one of the choices. I came out INFJ--"Counselor Idealist!" Like Mohandas Gandhi and Eleanor Roosevelt, rather than anyone I greatly admire. Ooops, hey, it's accurate--the second piece at the site that describes INFJ's said Aristophanes was one! (I wondered when he answered the quiz.) --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 19 09:19:55 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:19:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In search of poetry volumes? Message-ID: Looking for books of poetry? Click here-- http://www.poetshouse.org/ Then click on Directory of American Poetry Books Hal Not responsible for typographical careers. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From hruggier at localnet.com Wed May 19 10:39:02 2004 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:39:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040249.33449.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c43daf$086a1e80$4c0a9942@Helen> Have you two taken the Myers Brigs? ----- Original Message ----- From: Teddy Macker To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 12:02 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs Are we all on Candid Camera? I'm waiting for someone to interrupt this episode and assure me Bob Grumann is a hoax. Are you serious Bob? Are you bandying about the phrase "Iowa Plainlay" with a straight face? Sounds like a title for a cut-rate skin flick. It's abundantly clear your arguing stems in an unrivalled case of sour grapes. I am 26 year old poet with omnivirous taste; I like conservative stuff, I like edgy stuff, I like the in-between. And I see no reason why one should make one approach seem more legitimate than the other. Mainly what I care about is-- Does it move me? Plain and simple. Everything else is for hucksters. And for you to insinuate that a poet who's not using brackets, non-sequiturs, staccato incoherences, or mathematical equations is somehow stodgy or not history-worthy is a steaming load of donkey shit. Yes, we know: 'Making it new' is important. Yes, great. Fine. But it's only part of it. It's much harder to actually move someone, Bob. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 16:18:56 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 16:18:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <014401c43dde$84e4d5c0$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Yes, we know: 'Making it new' is important. Yes, great. Fine. But it's only part of it. It's much harder to actually move someone, Bob. Correction: Well, not as hard as getting a person not equipped with a full set of brain-cells to think. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmurray at uta.edu Wed May 19 16:50:00 2004 From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 15:50:00 -0500 Subject: Spam: [New-Poetry] In search of poetry volumes? Message-ID: This is great, Hal. Thanks much. Chris Murray -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu To: New-Poetry Sent: 5/19/2004 8:19 AM Subject: Spam: [New-Poetry] In search of poetry volumes? Looking for books of poetry? Click here-- http://www.poetshouse.org/ Then click on Directory of American Poetry Books Hal Not responsible for typographical careers. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Wed May 19 18:17:07 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 17:17:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: I think young Ted has an excellent point re: emotional substance. I feel the same way, without wishing to discourage (doubt it could be done!) Bob's ongoing attempts at taxonomy. A good poem transcends style, then form is an extension of substance. As for sour grapes, we've all had them. I try to make mine into a passable wine. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs Are we all on Candid Camera? I'm waiting for someone to interrupt this episode and assure me Bob Grumann is a hoax. Are you serious Bob? Are you bandying about the phrase "Iowa Plainlay" with a straight face? Sounds like a title for a cut-rate skin flick. Yes, I'm serious, Ted. And it's "Bob Grumman." It has been difficult to find a term for what is commonly called "Iowa Workshop Poem." I decided "Iowa Plainlay" was the best I could think of, so have gone with it in spite of its tendency to be taken as sexual by teen-aged boys of all ages. I'm still working on it, though. It's abundantly clear your arguing stems in an unrivalled case of sour grapes. Of course. No other possible explanation. I am 26 year old poet with omnivirous taste; I like conservative stuff, I like edgy stuff, I like the in-between. And I see no reason why one should make one approach seem more legitimate than the other. Mainly what I care about is-- Does it move me? Plain and simple. Everything else is for hucksters. And for you to insinuate that a poet who's not using brackets, non-sequiturs, staccato incoherences, or mathematical equations is somehow stodgy or not history-worthy is a steaming load of donkey shit. Yes, we know: 'Making it new' is important. Yes, great. Fine. But it's only part of it. It's much harder to actually move someone, Bob. Well, not as hard as getting a person not euiped with a full set of brain-cells to think. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 18:51:21 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:51:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01ab01c43df3$d08ee730$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I think young Ted has an excellent point re: emotional substance. I feel the same way, without wishing to discourage (doubt it could be done!) Bob's ongoing attempts at taxonomy. Saying a poem should have substance is like saying it should have poetry. A good poem transcends style, then form is an extension of substance. As for sour grapes, we've all had them. I try to make mine into a passable wine. --CE Sour grapes is claiming someone you're jealous of is bad because he's more successful in some way than you. It is different from claiming someone you're jealous of is bad because you sincerely believe he's bad. I don't claim every person composing Iowa Plainlays is bad or that everyone who has had more monetary success and critical recognition than I is bad. I certainly often experience jealousy in various forms, but I truly don't believe I've ever suffered from sour grapes. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Wed May 19 21:59:26 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 21:59:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In search of poetry volumes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52B6DE70-AA01-11D8-A904-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Wednesday, May 19, 2004, at 09:19 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Looking for books of poetry? > Click here-- http://www.poetshouse.org/ > > Then click on Directory of American Poetry Books Nice directory, but not very thorough yet, even for the bigger presses. I hope they keep building their database. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Contemporary American Poetry Archive http://capa.conncoll.edu From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 19 22:03:01 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 22:03:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01ab01c43df3$d08ee730$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01e501c43e0e$97369ee0$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm really getting sloppy. I meant to type, " Saying a poem should have emotional substance is like saying it should have poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com Thu May 20 13:40:32 2004 From: FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:40:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Highway Robbery THIS saturday @ The Anthroposophical Society Message-ID: <50.2c52478b.2dde4790@aol.com> this e-mail announcement was originally sent out by Edmund Berrigan: Hello Everyone, Please come to the Anthroposophical Society next Saturday, May 22nd at 8pm to celebrate the release of Highway Robbery #1. The issue includes poems by CA Conrad, Rebecca Heinowitz, Alice Notley, Simon Pettet, Rodrigo Toscano, Jacquie Waters; photos by Greg Fuchs; Dario Villa translated by John Colletti; and an Interview of Kenneth Koch by Anselm Berrigan. Highway Robbery will be available for free at the release party. The readers for the night will be: CA Conrad Rebecca Heinowitz Rodrigo Toscano The Anthroposophical society is located at 138 W. 15th between 6th and 7th ave. Ring the doorbell. Thanks, Eddie ____________ From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 21 12:26:37 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 11:26:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Feast o' Finnegan Message-ID: Hey, if you go to the Writer's Almanac site today, you'll find Jim Finnegan's "Hard River" is featured *again* today. http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/ Twice in one week--how'd you pull that one off, Jim? (On the audio version, however, it's Emily Dickinson today, I'm afraid. Whoever she is.) Nice poem, by the way. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 21 14:42:58 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:42:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Feast o' Finnegan Message-ID: <7e.4ee3aa50.2ddfa7b2@aol.com> In a message dated 5/21/2004 12:25:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/ Twice in one week--how'd you pull that one off, Jim? David, That's a complete surprise to me. It must have been that after the first reading their switchboard was overwhelmed with calls requesting a repeat performance. (Or it's a mistake?) Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 21 14:51:45 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:51:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Feast o' Finnegan Message-ID: <1db.221a8d5c.2ddfa9c1@aol.com> Yes, definitely an error. I got the text, but the audio belongs to Emily Dickinson's poem 'I shall keep singing'. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 21 17:25:14 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:25:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for "Plainlay" References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <014401c43f7a$1d2a54d0$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> "Plainrune." I don't like its suggestion of antiquity but I suppose that's better than having attention-deficit high schoolers of all ages making fun of its sexual connotations. Definition: any conventional free verse poem. "Iowa Plainrune" is my tentative replacement for "Iowa Workshop Poem." I want to replace "Iowa" but haven't thought of anything that works, for me, yet. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Fri May 21 18:02:22 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:02:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for "Plainlay" In-Reply-To: <014401c43f7a$1d2a54d0$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Just gotta ask you, Bob. I really admire your tenacity in the name of nomenclature clarification (tilting at verbal windbags?), but does anyone other than you ever use any of these terminological improvements you've devised over the years? Have you found any use for them yourself? I myself have no idea what an "Iowa Workshop Poem" is, though I've seen the term in use for years now. Frankly, I don't quite see that "Iowa Plainrune" is any more an improvement than "Iowa Sweatshop Poem" might be. But maybe that's just me. Hal "Plainrune." I don't like its suggestion of antiquity but I suppose that's better than having attention-deficit high schoolers of all ages making fun of its sexual connotations. Definition: any conventional free verse poem. "Iowa Plainrune" is my tentative replacement for "Iowa Workshop Poem." I want to replace "Iowa" but haven't thought of anything that works, for me, yet. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 21 18:27:51 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:27:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for Plainlay Message-ID: <269620-220045521222751428@M2W036.mail2web.com> How about "Crawford, Texas, Plainrune Poem"? Original Message: ----------------- From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:25:14 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for "Plainlay" "Plainrune." I don't like its suggestion of antiquity but I suppose that's better than having attention-deficit high schoolers of all ages making fun of its sexual connotations. Definition: any conventional free verse poem. "Iowa Plainrune" is my tentative replacement for "Iowa Workshop Poem." I want to replace "Iowa" but haven't thought of anything that works, for me, yet. --Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 21 18:51:10 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:51:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for "Plainlay" References: Message-ID: <01b401c43f86$1e2ab760$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Just gotta ask you, Bob. I really admire your tenacity in the name of nomenclature clarification (tilting at verbal windbags?), but does anyone other than you ever use any of these terminological improvements you've devised over the years? Have you found any use for them yourself? My "otherstream" is used a bit by others. A handful of people use two or three of my terms, but not often. I use many of them. They help me focus. I find it hard to remember a lot of them, but "onomatopoeia" gave me trouble for decades. It wasn't till I was thirty that I understood what a "metaphor" was, either. I could pass tests on it, but I didn't really understand it. I myself have no idea what an "Iowa Workshop Poem" is, though I've seen the term in use for years now. Frankly, I don't quite see that "Iowa Plainrune" is any more an improvement than "Iowa Sweatshop Poem" might be. But maybe that's just me. I hope it comes off as less negative (as entirely neutral, in fact). Many people have the same or nearly the same idea of what an Iowa Workshop Poem is as I do. I'm very slowly writing an essay giving my impression of contemporary American Poetry. In it I will discuss a few poets who all write the same kind of poem. It will be useful to be able to name it and define it early in my essay, then not have to speak of "the kind of sensitive low-key poem about quotidian subject matter in free verse, etc., etc., that so-and-so so often composes" every time I bring it up. I realize that this all has to do with criticism, Hal, something you are not too supportive of. But there are some who find it interesting, even occasionally useful. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 21 18:59:27 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:59:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for Plainlay References: <269620-220045521222751428@M2W036.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <01c101c43f87$469b3c50$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > How about "Crawford, Texas, Plainrune Poem"? Why don't you give me your complete address, Tad, and I can call it, "17B Hindgnat Plaza, Crawford, Texas Plainrune," or whatever your exact address is? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 21 19:07:06 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 19:07:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for Plainlay References: <269620-220045521222751428@M2W036.mail2web.com> <01c101c43f87$469b3c50$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002901c43f88$57734210$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I Bush Plaza ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for Plainlay > > How about "Crawford, Texas, Plainrune Poem"? Why don't you give me your complete address, Tad, and I can call it, "17B Hindgnat Plaza, Crawford, Texas Plainrune," or whatever your exact address is? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Fri May 21 19:10:31 2004 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 18:10:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Replacement for Plainlay In-Reply-To: <01c101c43f87$469b3c50$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <269620-220045521222751428@M2W036.mail2web.com> <01c101c43f87$469b3c50$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20040521180944.C95039@kpaul.spinweb.net> if i may (rudely?) interject ... babylonian plainrune poem? or hmm. no, that's all i got. -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Fri, 21 May 2004, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > How about "Crawford, Texas, Plainrune Poem"? > > Why don't you give me your complete address, Tad, and I can call it, "17B Hindgnat Plaza, Crawford, Texas Plainrune," or whatever your exact address is? > > --Bob G. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Fri May 21 21:01:01 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 20:01:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01ab01c43df3$d08ee730$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Dear Bob, Ted admitted his youth. I thought I was playing a bit of a peacemaker here in view of your experience, guess I missed the mark. As for emotional substance, read Wordsworth's Ecclesiastical Sonnets if you think all poetry must have it-- then they may not qualify as poetry. But as someone who has taught poetry, certainly you've come across dry verse claiming to be poetry, though in the young it's usually an excess of emotional substance that dominates. The right balance of intellectual and emotional substance is what good poetry requires, without commenting on the necessities of form. You haven't read my logopoetry series but I don't wish those essays on you..... But maybe you should read Brer Rabbit again? Sometimes I feel as if making a point with you is like shaking hands with a tar baby. Ka-Ching! And your claim to analytical superiority sometimes grates-- not that all doctors are great scientists but I still read the journals. Analysis and obsession are fraternal twins of which one is attractive. Only one of the twins would define sour grapes in her own defense, the other might _accept_ colloquial shorthand. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs I think young Ted has an excellent point re: emotional substance. I feel the same way, without wishing to discourage (doubt it could be done!) Bob's ongoing attempts at taxonomy. Saying a poem should have substance is like saying it should have poetry. A good poem transcends style, then form is an extension of substance. As for sour grapes, we've all had them. I try to make mine into a passable wine. --CE Sour grapes is claiming someone you're jealous of is bad because he's more successful in some way than you. It is different from claiming someone you're jealous of is bad because you sincerely believe he's bad. I don't claim every person composing Iowa Plainlays is bad or that everyone who has had more monetary success and critical recognition than I is bad. I certainly often experience jealousy in various forms, but I truly don't believe I've ever suffered from sour grapes. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 21 21:40:50 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 21:40:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01ab01c43df3$d08ee730$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <021a01c43f9d$d2544550$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Dear Bob, > > Ted admitted his youth. I thought I was playing a bit of a peacemaker here > in view of your experience, guess I missed the mark. The problem is that I get hit with unsupported slams of my attempts to apply reason to poetics at lot here. I also am especially hostile to sentimental pseudo-definitions of poetry. I did realize what you were doing but didn't want peace with nobody nohow at the time. > As for emotional substance, read Wordsworth's Ecclesiastical Sonnets if you > think all poetry must have it-- then they may not qualify as poetry. It would be hard for me to read anything with "Ecclesiastical" in the title. But I would probably find some kind of emotion aimed for if I did. > But as someone who has taught poetry, certainly you've come across dry verse > claiming to be poetry, though in the young it's usually an excess of > emotional substance that dominates. The right balance of intellectual and > emotional substance is what good poetry requires, without commenting on the > necessities of form. You haven't read my logopoetry series but I don't wish > those essays on you..... I take emotional substance for granted. What counts is how it's made to come through, which must require intellectual something. > But maybe you should read Brer Rabbit again? > > Sometimes I feel as if making a point with you is like shaking hands with a > tar baby. Ka-Ching! I would agree that that is a valid impression. > And your claim to analytical superiority sometimes grates-- not that all > doctors are great scientists but I still read the journals. Analysis and > obsession are fraternal twins of which one is attractive. Only one of the > twins would define sour grapes in her own defense, the other might _accept_ > colloquial shorthand. I have in the past been accused of having sour grapes, which annoys me because it's beside the point, and, I believe, untrue--even as "colloquial shorthand," which our young friend did not intend it as. --Bob G. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sat May 22 02:13:51 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 01:13:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Humility is endless.. References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01ab01c43df3$d08ee730$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <021a01c43f9d$d2544550$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Dear Bob, The Lakers won tonight. My wife came out of surgery fine. How can I not like you? You may be dense but I swear you're humble. Kudos, CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2211 - 5 msgs | | | > Dear Bob, | > | > Ted admitted his youth. I thought I was playing a bit of a peacemaker | here | > in view of your experience, guess I missed the mark. | | The problem is that I get hit with unsupported slams of my attempts to apply | reason to poetics at lot here. I also am especially hostile to sentimental | pseudo-definitions of poetry. I did realize what you were doing but didn't | want peace with nobody nohow at the time. | | > As for emotional substance, read Wordsworth's Ecclesiastical Sonnets if | you | > think all poetry must have it-- then they may not qualify as poetry. | | It would be hard for me to read anything with "Ecclesiastical" in the title. | But I would probably find some kind of emotion aimed for if I did. | | > But as someone who has taught poetry, certainly you've come across dry | verse | > claiming to be poetry, though in the young it's usually an excess of | > emotional substance that dominates. The right balance of intellectual and | > emotional substance is what good poetry requires, without commenting on | the | > necessities of form. You haven't read my logopoetry series but I don't | wish | > those essays on you..... | | I take emotional substance for granted. What counts is how it's made to | come through, which must require intellectual something. | | > But maybe you should read Brer Rabbit again? | > | > Sometimes I feel as if making a point with you is like shaking hands with | a | > tar baby. Ka-Ching! | | I would agree that that is a valid impression. | | | > And your claim to analytical superiority sometimes grates-- not that all | > doctors are great scientists but I still read the journals. Analysis and | > obsession are fraternal twins of which one is attractive. Only one of the | > twins would define sour grapes in her own defense, the other might | _accept_ | > colloquial shorthand. | | I have in the past been accused of having sour grapes, which annoys me | because it's beside the point, and, I believe, untrue--even as "colloquial | shorthand," which our young friend did not intend it as. | | --Bob G. | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 22 07:13:44 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 07:13:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Humility is endless.. References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c43d8a$24189af0$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <01ab01c43df3$d08ee730$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <021a01c43f9d$d2544550$2eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <007501c43fed$daf820f0$41efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Dear Bob, > > > The Lakers won tonight. My wife came out of surgery fine. > > How can I not like you? > > You may be dense but I swear you're humble. > Ha, my ruse works on SOMEbody, then. Actually, I'm a combination of genuine humility and genuine super-arrogance. Sorry to hear the Lakers won. They've won enough. Didn't know about your wife but it's good to hear she made it through whatever surgery she had. --Bob > > CE From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat May 22 13:45:42 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 10:45:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] ruination In-Reply-To: <200405221601.i4MG16XE025824@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040522101112.00b88ff0@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 5/22/2004 -0400, Bob G. wrote: > my attempts to apply reason to poetics striving for brevity here, may I note that mini-management (irritably reaching after fact and reason) regarding supposed "types" of poetry offered by a self-appointed tox(ic)onomist (excuse: tax(ic)onomist) programmed to repeated sneer and insult (did I mention repeated?) in order to herd, via mis-labeling, wide-ranging writers into little sneerable boxes (breath) is bad for poetry, bad for criticism, destructive of negative capability, and lethal to a once vital list. So why should such categorizing undertaken? Could it be to forward by contrast the tox(ic)onomist's own BLURBNORM poetry? Hmmm. Even the Lakers should give Bob their prize! I call such onslaught during past months LANG-WEDGE-TERRORISM and what baffles me (and Ted, too, I think, who bravely tried to call a halt to these weapons of mass creative destruction) is the degree of polite collaboration with an 'umble bully. I don't blame Bob, in fact. Ask Procrustes why he's such a limb-chopper and he'll likely tell you it's just what he does (how else accomplish neat box-fittings?). No, I wonder at those who seem not to realize that there's no happy future in polite collaboration with LANG-WEDGE TERRORISTS. at-wit's-endingly, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 22 14:46:52 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 13:46:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch Message-ID: The Human Sacrament Is nothing new sacred? The book, the sky, The women on the blue and red screen Painted in Japan about five hundred years ago. Someone Has tipped the screen over. I'll set it back up Putting all the emotion in the thing felt at the thing done. A mirror can be clearer Than a dog, but a small dog can run. Sacred Is perhaps the relation that caused My daughter to be born. Yet is she sacred? She is a woman with someone's arm Around her shoulders. She is of this world The way that pipe is, that goes from the well to the house, And the way the grass is that at this season leaps about up and under it, And as the cigarette is that the gardener throws in the grass. Has it a sacred flame? The pipe going to the house. Later, who knows? The sacred is the sacrament. And it is what We wanted once to be-- Give me some more coffee, Some more milk, some more bread, some more breakfast! Is nothing new sacred? The screen is standing up. My daughter and her baby come for tea. The baby comes for milk. They're here in time. --Kenneth Koch. *Straits*. Knopf, 1998. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 22 14:48:09 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:48:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Centrum Announces Starbucks Scholarships Message-ID: <1e.2a36bf71.2de0fa69@aol.com> Centrum Announces Starbucks Scholarships May 21, 2004 Centrum is pleased to announce the availability of new scholarships for Centrum's 2004 Port Townsend Writers' Conference. Thanks to the generosity of the Starbucks Foundation, five $500 scholarships will be awarded to young writers over the age of 18 to participate in the Conference, held July 15-25. Three poets and two fiction writers will be selected and placed in the workshop by the director of the Conference, noted poet and translator Sam Hamill. To apply, writers must submit a narrative application of up to one page. The application should consist of a statement of need as well as a statement of practice. The narrative can be mailed to Centrum, or emailed to carla at centrum.org. The deadline for the statement is June 10. Visit Our Website We hope you will be able to join us at the Conference this year. If you know of anyone who might be interested in this scholarship opportunity, please forward this email to them. Sincerely, Keven Elliff Centrum ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- email: keven at centrum.org phone: 360-385-3102 web: http://www.centrum.org Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com, by keven at centrum.org Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. Powered by Centrum | Fort Worden State Park | PO Box 1158 | Port Townsend | WA | 98368 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 22 14:50:50 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 14:50:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] ruination References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040522101112.00b88ff0@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <01df01c4402d$b6db5530$41efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> my attempts to apply reason to poetics striving for brevity here, may I note that mini-management (irritably reaching after fact and reason) regarding supposed "types" of poetry offered by a self-appointed tox(ic)onomist (excuse: tax(ic)onomist) programmed to repeated sneer and insult (did I mention repeated?) in order to herd, via mis-labeling, wide-ranging writers into little sneerable boxes (breath) is bad for poetry, bad for criticism, destructive of negative capability, and lethal to a once vital list. So why should such categorizing undertaken? Could it be to forward by contrast the tox(ic)onomist's own BLURBNORM poetry? Hmmm. Even the Lakers should give Bob their prize! I call such onslaught during past months LANG-WEDGE-TERRORISM and what baffles me (and Ted, too, I think, who bravely tried to call a halt to these weapons of mass creative destruction) is the degree of polite collaboration with an 'umble bully. I don't blame Bob, in fact. Ask Procrustes why he's such a limb-chopper and he'll likely tell you it's just what he does (how else accomplish neat box-fittings?). No, I wonder at those who seem not to realize that there's no happy future in polite collaboration with LANG-WEDGE TERRORISTS. at-wit's-endingly, Barry Thanks, Barry. I will quote you at my blog: http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html with a comment that I don't want to make here because it would upset James. I will say that I can't understand why even you would consider a person a bully for trying to name kinds of poetry. I don't require others to use the names, only believe they or some such similar names would be useful. I acknowledge being impolite at times, even being a sometime pop-off artist, but can any reasonable person believe I have not been zinged with somewhat impolite comments by those I've been impolite to? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 22 19:49:25 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:49:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] HOWARD NEMEROV SONNET AWARD Message-ID: <9d.48b673e1.2de14105@aol.com> HOWARD NEMEROV SONNET AWARD $1,000 PRIZE Final Judge: Rachel Hadas Deadline: June 15, 2004 Sponsored by: The Formalist A Journal of Metrical Poetry Competition Rules for the 11th annual Howard Nemerov Sonnet Award: 1. Sonnets must be original and unpublished. No translations. Writers may enter as many sonnets as they wish. Sonnet sequences are acceptable, but each sonnet will be considered individually. Entry fee: $3 per sonnet. Author's name, address, and phone number should be typed on the BACK of each entry. 2. Final Judge for the 2004 competition will be Rachel Hadas. The winning poem and eleven finalists will be published in the Fall/Winter 2004 issue of The Formalist. 3. Entries must be sent to the address listed below and postmarked no later than June 15, 2004. Enclose a SASE if you would like to be notified of the contest results by September 2004. Entries cannot be returned. Click here to see a list of previous winners and judges. For further information contact: The Formalist 320 Hunter Drive Evansville, IN 47711 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 22 20:16:45 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 20:16:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ONSETS Message-ID: <147.2a5befb9.2de1476d@aol.com> ONSETS a breviary (synopticon?) of poems 13 lines or under published for the occasion of the Toronto Small-Press Bookfair, Spring 2004 78 pieces by 80 contributors from around the world, in a miniature = (4.25" x 3.5") chapbook publication put together on the spur of the = moment for this year's bookfair in Toronto. Neo-Sapphic fragments, = satirical epigrams, squibs, haiku, jokes, jazz, typestracts, = transl(iter)ations, riddles, a weather report from Iraq, lyrics in all = shapes and sizes. Everything from the deadly serious to the ridiculous. The contributors.. Gilbert Adair ... Tony Baker ... derek beaulieu ... Caroline Bergvall ... Charles Bernstein ... Michael Boughn ... George Bowering ... Daniel f. Bradley ... Ted Byrne ... Miles Champion ... Kelvin Corcoran ... = Martin Corless-Smith ... Ian Davidson ... Jean Day ... Mark Dickinson ... Anne Dorward ... Paul Dutton ... Craig Dworkin ... Lori Emerson ... Allen Fisher ... Benjamin Friedlander ... William Fuller ... Harry Gilonis ... David Gitin ... Kenneth Goldsmith ... Frederick Goodwin .. Bill Griffiths ... John Hall ... Alan Halsey ... Ralph Hawkins ... Randolph Healy ... Anselm Hollo ... William Howe ... Peter Jaeger .. Elizabeth James ... Pierre Joris ... Trevor Joyce ... Christine Kennedy ... David Kennedy ... M=E1rton Kopp=E1ny ... Sophie Levy ... Mark Mendoza ... Jay MillAr ... Drew Milne ... Geraldine Monk ... Ben Murray ... Peter Larkin ... Ira Lightman ... Steve McCaffery ... Karen Mac Cormack ... Rob MacKenzie ... Douglas Manson ... Peter Manson . Camille Martin ... Peter Middleton ... Peter O'Leary ... Ian Patterson .. dana lisa petersen ... Richard Price ... Robin Purves ... a. rawlings ... Peter Riley ... Lisa Robertson ... Nancy Shaw ... Jonathan Skinner ... Pete Smith ... Geoff Squires ... Brian Kim Stefans ... Christine Stewart ... Catriona Strang ... Chris Stroffolino ... Scott Thurston ... Keith Tuma ... Catherine Wagner ... Diane Ward ... Geoff Ward ... Susan Wheeler ... John Wilkinson ... Trevor Winkfield ... Rita Wong Prices (postage included): $5 Cdn / $4 US in North America A33 / 4.50 euros overseas OR the avant-lyric special: order it as a pair with Peter Larkin's What the Surfaces Enclave of Wang Wei (short lyrics worked from the Penguin translation of Wang Wei): $7.50 Cdn / $5.75 US in North America =A34.50 / 7 euros=20 Send cheques to: Nate Dorward, 109 Hounslow Avenue, Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada (email: ndorward at sprint.ca). If you have a colour preference for Onsets tell me, as they were published in a miscellany of colours: orange, yellow, cream, green, blue. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 07:17:48 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 07:17:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Literary Terrorist Attack References: Message-ID: <003e01c440b7$9650b140$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I felt it important to report a terrorist attack I just witnessed. At a website, Barry Spacks is quoted as saying, "Tanka is the early form which led to haiku; sequences like ours are called either "strings" of tanka or use the old "renga" word for exchanges." Wait a moment. It is possible that I don't understand literary terrorism. Using the received names of kinds of poems is not terrorism, only making up new names for previously unnamed kinds of poems. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 07:27:40 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 07:27:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch References: Message-ID: <004201c440b8$f70dbf90$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > The Human Sacrament > > > Is nothing new sacred? The book, the sky, > The women on the blue and red screen > Painted in Japan about five hundred years ago. Someone > Has tipped the screen over. I'll set it back up > Putting all the emotion in the thing felt at the thing done. A mirror can > be clearer > Than a dog, but a small dog can run. Sacred > Is perhaps the relation that caused > My daughter to be born. Yet is she sacred? > She is a woman with someone's arm > Around her shoulders. She is of this world > The way that pipe is, that goes from the well to the house, > And the way the grass is that at this season leaps about up and under it, > And as the cigarette is that the gardener throws in the grass. > Has it a sacred flame? The pipe going to the house. Later, who knows? > The sacred is the sacrament. And it is what > We wanted once to be-- > Give me some more coffee, > Some more milk, some more bread, some more breakfast! > Is nothing new sacred? The screen is standing up. > My daughter and her baby come for tea. The baby comes for milk. > They're here in time. > > > --Kenneth Koch. *Straits*. Knopf, 1998. Forgive yet another of my acts of literary terrorism (I really like the thought of that), but I want to say that I think the above an excellent Iowa Plainlay. Yes, it's different from the majority of such poems in that it is more explicitly and thoroughly meditative. If I ever really study knownstream poetry, I'll probably work out subcategories of the Iowa Plainlay. I'm back to using "plainlay," by the way, because someone backchanneled me that it was better than "plainrune." So far it's four votes against the term and one vote for. But the ones against are simply against any term, so hardly count. --The Literary Terrorist From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 11:20:26 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:20:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch References: <004201c440b8$f70dbf90$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00bd01c440d9$7be03a70$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I just did a blog entry on the Koch poem. I'd post it here except that I'm curious to see how many at New-Poetry will bother to read it. The entry (a positive one although the poem is not burst norm) is at: http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Blog00112.html --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 23 12:33:31 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:33:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch In-Reply-To: <004201c440b8$f70dbf90$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 5/23/04 6:27 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > Forgive yet another of my acts of literary terrorism (I really like the > thought of that), but I want to say that I think the above an excellent Iowa > Plainlay. Yes, it's different from the majority of such poems in that it is > more explicitly and thoroughly meditative. If I ever really study > knownstream poetry, I'll probably work out subcategories of the Iowa > Plainlay. OK, I think I got it now. The poem is different from the majority of poems that it resembles, yet definitely belongs to a "school" of such Iowa poems which you haven't really studied, but you'll probably fill in the details later on. Why people make fun of your taxonomic project is just puzzling, Bob. By the way, I think on the basis of the above paragraph you could really serve on the faculty of the New York School. If you've not heard of them, they're sort of the original low-residency MFA program. You could look 'em up. . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun May 23 12:48:10 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 09:48:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: striving for brevity In-Reply-To: <200405231601.i4NG12XE031230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523094506.02c71690@incoming.verizon.net> disingenuous, cheapening others, a licensed fool who sets the agenda blabs on alone in a once crowded room From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 23 12:54:32 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 12:54:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch Message-ID: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> This is the basic problem with Bob's taxonomy - that he refuses to actually study the area he essays to taxonomize. Original Message: ----------------- From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:33:31 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch on 5/23/04 6:27 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > Forgive yet another of my acts of literary terrorism (I really like the > thought of that), but I want to say that I think the above an excellent Iowa > Plainlay. Yes, it's different from the majority of such poems in that it is > more explicitly and thoroughly meditative. If I ever really study > knownstream poetry, I'll probably work out subcategories of the Iowa > Plainlay. OK, I think I got it now. The poem is different from the majority of poems that it resembles, yet definitely belongs to a "school" of such Iowa poems which you haven't really studied, but you'll probably fill in the details later on. Why people make fun of your taxonomic project is just puzzling, Bob. By the way, I think on the basis of the above paragraph you could really serve on the faculty of the New York School. If you've not heard of them, they're sort of the original low-residency MFA program. You could look 'em up. . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 13:09:59 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:09:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: Message-ID: <010201c440e8$c9b9e4d0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > Forgive yet another of my acts of literary terrorism (I really like the > > thought of that), but I want to say that I think the above an excellent Iowa > > Plainlay. Yes, it's different from the majority of such poems in that it is > > more explicitly and thoroughly meditative. If I ever really study > > knownstream poetry, I'll probably work out subcategories of the Iowa > > Plainlay. > OK, I think I got it now. The poem is different from the majority of poems > that it resembles, yet definitely belongs to a "school" of such Iowa poems > which you haven't really studied, but you'll probably fill in the details > later on. > > Why people make fun of your taxonomic project is just puzzling, Bob. > > By the way, I think on the basis of the above paragraph you could really > serve on the faculty of the New York School. If you've not heard of them, > they're sort of the original low-residency MFA program. You could look 'em > up. . . . Hey, Professor, you may be in luck: I may quote you in my next blog, the way I quoted your fellow professor yesterday. Of course, few visit my blog, so your vast superiority to me won't get much publicity. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun May 23 13:09:00 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:09:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: striving for brevity In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523094506.02c71690@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: { disingenuous, cheapening others, { a licensed fool who sets the agenda { blabs on alone in a once crowded room None of your Bush-bashing, Barry. Hal "Those who cast the ballots decide nothing. Those who count the ballots decide everything." --Joseph Stalin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 13:27:06 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:27:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > This is the basic problem with Bob's taxonomy - that he refuses Right, Tad: I admit to not knowing the field as well as I would like to, so am refusing: > to actually > study the area he essays to taxonomize. The only area I've taxonomized above the conversational level is burstnorm poetry, which I have studied, both as a critic and as a creator of it. Here I am trying out names for various kinds of knownstream poems, and stating difficulties as they come up. Rather naively, I've been exhibiting a project-in-progress in the hopes it might attract something other than moronic jokes and accusations of literary terrorism, self-aggrandizement, incompetence and sour grapes. I hope to be allowed to continue doing so. I believe there are people visiting New-Poetry who are open to attempts to work out what's going on in American Poetry today, however tentative and unscholarly. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 13:50:02 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:50:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch References: <004201c440b8$f70dbf90$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00bd01c440d9$7be03a70$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <012901c440ee$61f13b90$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I just did a blog entry on the Koch poem. I'd post it here except that I'm > curious to see how many at New-Poetry will bother to read it. The entry (a > positive one although the poem is not burst norm) is at: > > http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Blog00112.html > > --Bob G. It would appear that a handful of New-Poetry people actually did visit my entry. Will any of them dare offer a serious critique of it? Why do I doubt it? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 23 14:31:54 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 14:31:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002701c440f4$3b8d9970$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> So actually, non-burstnorm would be the accurate term. That body of poetry which is outside the realm of your field of taxonomic study. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch > This is the basic problem with Bob's taxonomy - that he refuses Right, Tad: I admit to not knowing the field as well as I would like to, so am refusing: > to actually > study the area he essays to taxonomize. The only area I've taxonomized above the conversational level is burstnorm poetry, which I have studied, both as a critic and as a creator of it. Here I am trying out names for various kinds of knownstream poems, and stating difficulties as they come up. Rather naively, I've been exhibiting a project-in-progress in the hopes it might attract something other than moronic jokes and accusations of literary terrorism, self-aggrandizement, incompetence and sour grapes. I hope to be allowed to continue doing so. I believe there are people visiting New-Poetry who are open to attempts to work out what's going on in American Poetry today, however tentative and unscholarly. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Sun May 23 14:59:24 2004 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:59:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Movie Review: The Embedding of Americas Poets In-Reply-To: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040519040010.32506.qmail@web11505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040523135836.F7098@kpaul.spinweb.net> haven't seen it myself yet, but it sounds interesting... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=744 The government, with a defense contractor, elicits work from poets to give voice to the war in Iraq, but which voices will be heard and which ones not heard? By Kevin Bowen In the midst of the Vietnam War, a small group of recently discharged American veterans sent out a call for poems and stories written by active duty personnel and veterans like themselves. The result was an avalanche of submissions, some supportive, many deeply critical of the war effort. Winning Hearts and Minds, an anthology of some of the submissions edited by Larry Rottmann, Jan Barry, and Basil T. Paquet was published in 1972, winning high praise from the nation's literary journals and spurring the Nixon White House to start investigations into who these writers were. Winning Hearts and Minds was a grassroots effort, its gathering of poetry a powerful expression of the frustration, anger, and alienation soldiers and veterans felt at the conduct of the war in Vietnam. Now, as the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq inch deeper and deeper into troubled territory, one wonders at the shape of this generations returning war narratives. Will this war have its own Winning Hearts and Minds? Perhaps not, if Washington has its say. In what might be considered an act of tactical preemption, last month the National Endowment for the Arts announced Operation Homecoming, a collaborative effort of the nation's arts agency, the Department of Defense, and the Boeing company, a project which will send poets and writers to military bases around the country and abroad to conduct writing workshops for soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The announcement boasts that the best works will be published in an anthology to be distributed throughout the military and to schools. No matter what ones views might be, it would seem that, with recruitment and retention significant issues within the military, it's doubtful that the Pentagon will be putting its imprimatur on work critical of the war effort or the military. Despite disclaimers that submissions will be based on artistic merit, not on whether they're pro- or anti-war, stories of sexual harassment, racism, incompetence, overflowing hospitals, casual companies, and collateral damage most likely will not make their way into the table of contents. Perhaps the military has changed, but it is difficult for me to imagine some young corporal, sitting in a workshop with his officers and platoon leaders watching, writing a fiercely critical story or poem. Most likely, the enduring works of past wars, the poems of Wilfred Own, Isaac Rosenberg, Guillaume Appollinaire, George Trakl, Randell Jarrell, Howard Nemerov, Lucien Stryk, Alan Dugan, Michael Casey, John Balaban, Bruce Weigl, Bill Ehrhart, or Yusef Komunyakaa, would not have passed immediate muster at the Pentagon. Serious fiction writing takes years to get sorted out. Yet, All Quiet on the Western Front, A Farewell to Arms, and the works of the novelists Heller, Jones, O'Brien, Heinemann, and Caputo would not likely have passed muster either. The NEAs pledged $300,000 is not a large amount of money as things go, but it is deeply problematic when it comes from an agency whose budget has been continuously cut by Congress and offered in support of agencies with the cost overruns and budget and spending excesses of Boeing and the Pentagon. If it is simply a way the agency hopes to cozy up the administration for a future budget increase, then we all should be reminded of the roots of the word pandering. Beyond the language of self-help and the therapeutic aspects of writing, beyond the back-patting, it is not difficult to see in the project an effort to establish an official canon of writing from the century's first wars, neatly packaged, ready for mass distribution and classroom use, complete with a web-site to write into and post writings on, and an accompanying CD for schools. There may be good intentions behind the initiative, but we know what road they pave. If the NEA, the Pentagon, and Boeing really wish to see returning soldiers get the best opportunity to render their experiences into print, they should be lobbying for a good GI Bill, like the one which allowed World War II veterans to study and travel in Europe and other places abroad, or the one which brought the Vietnam writers into the new writing programs at university campuses. Returning soldiers might be better served by grants to community colleges, community centers, and to universities, where they might be welcomed into communities where their voices would be fostered over time and not immediately co-opted. Most alarming to many of us, Operation Homecoming threatens to move the NEA into the business of supporting the generation of propaganda, a wartime exercise that is not part of its mission, and does writers, veterans, and the public a great disservice. Kevin Bowen is Director of the William Joiner Center for the Study of War and Social Consequences at the University of Massachusetts, Boston, which has offered writing workshops for veterans since 1987. A Vietnam veteran, a poet and translator, he received an NEA Fellowship for Poetry on 2003. He served in Vietnam in 1968-1969. You can email Kevin at Kevin at interventionmag.com Posted Thursday, May 20, 2004 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 15:03:21 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 15:03:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002701c440f4$3b8d9970$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01ad01c440f8$a04e0030$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> So actually, non-burstnorm would be the accurate term. No, but I can't think what my term is, right now. It includes what I call "songmode" and "plaintext" poetry. That body of poetry which is outside the realm of your field of taxonomic study. No. The body of poetry which I have not yet studied sufficiently to divide with as much confidence as I'd like to into sub-categories of sub-categories, and so on. I've studied it enough to be able to divide it into two major categories, and divide "plaintext poetry" into what I'm now calling "parlor-musing plainlays" from plaintext poetry that isn't that. See my blog entry for details. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 23 15:27:48 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 15:27:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002701c440f4$3b8d9970$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01ad01c440f8$a04e0030$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001301c440fc$09d421d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Bob, I think that's the problem people have with you. There's nothing wrong with working on the development of a taxonomy of burstnorm poetry. I'd say it's a valuable addition to contemporary scholarship. As you know, both David Graham and I have praised your MNLMLST poetry essay, and I use it regularly in Poetry Workshop classes. The problem is in your extending the taxonomy to an area of poetry that you claim to neither know or care about -- and finding dismissive and derogatory labels for that poetry, and everyone who's involved with it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch So actually, non-burstnorm would be the accurate term. No, but I can't think what my term is, right now. It includes what I call "songmode" and "plaintext" poetry. That body of poetry which is outside the realm of your field of taxonomic study. No. The body of poetry which I have not yet studied sufficiently to divide with as much confidence as I'd like to into sub-categories of sub-categories, and so on. I've studied it enough to be able to divide it into two major categories, and divide "plaintext poetry" into what I'm now calling "parlor-musing plainlays" from plaintext poetry that isn't that. See my blog entry for details. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 15:46:25 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 15:46:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002701c440f4$3b8d9970$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01ad01c440f8$a04e0030$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001301c440fc$09d421d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01d701c440fe$a4358be0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, I think that's the problem people have with you. There's nothing wrong with working on the development of a taxonomy of burstnorm poetry. I'd say it's a valuable addition to contemporary scholarship. As you know, both David Graham and I have praised your MNLMLST poetry essay, and I use it regularly in Poetry Workshop classes. Prof. Graham said something good about it? I didn't know that. I thank you again for your kindness toward it. The problem is in your extending the taxonomy to an area of poetry that you claim to neither know or care about -- and finding dismissive and derogatory labels for that poetry, and everyone who's involved with it. I'm tired of saying that's not so. I hope to make that clear in the essay I'm writing about the contemporary state of American poetry. Incidentally, "plainlay" is not intended to be dismissive or derogatory. If it is, then someone should tell me so. A bonus would be if he could suggest a better term. It's supposed to be a way around "Iowa Workshop Poem" and "McPoem." The main terms in my poetry taxonomy are "songmode poetry," "plaintext poetry" and "burstnorm poetry," each chosen after a great deal of thought over years to neutrally give a quick rough idea of what they mean. Maybe I should retreat to Iowa Plaintext Poem, but I wanted a shorter name. . . . --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun May 23 16:13:27 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:13:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pleasure of Hearing from Hal In-Reply-To: <200405231851.i4NIp2XE032479@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523130217.00bbbb58@incoming.verizon.net> At 02:51 PM 5/23/2004 -0400, Hal wrote: > disingenuous, cheapening others, > a licensed fool who sets the agenda > blabs on alone in a once crowded room > >None of your Bush-bashing, Barry. Hal,mahn, you the Big Wag! B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun May 23 16:09:27 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:09:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <00a701c44101$d9a505a0$22607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> Something like a Maddening Taxonomizist honorefuting the mixing Ho-nors/-rrors of taxonome in its perilous levels of tax(-is/-es)oningS(haky)atur(nian)ation - but don't tell me, is this really B+o+B? Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome Word of the Day for Sunday May 23, 2004 tarradiddle \tair-uh-DID-uhl\, noun: 1. A petty falsehood; a fib. 2. Pretentious nonsense. From: Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:54 PM > > This is the basic problem with Bob's taxonomy - that he refuses to actually > study the area he essays to taxonomize. > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu > Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:33:31 -0500 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch > > > on 5/23/04 6:27 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > > > Forgive yet another of my acts of literary terrorism (I really like the > > thought of that), but I want to say that I think the above an excellent > Iowa > > Plainlay. Yes, it's different from the majority of such poems in that it > is > > more explicitly and thoroughly meditative. If I ever really study > > knownstream poetry, I'll probably work out subcategories of the Iowa > > Plainlay. > > > OK, I think I got it now. The poem is different from the majority of poems > that it resembles, yet definitely belongs to a "school" of such Iowa poems > which you haven't really studied, but you'll probably fill in the details > later on. > > Why people make fun of your taxonomic project is just puzzling, Bob. > > By the way, I think on the basis of the above paragraph you could really > serve on the faculty of the New York School. If you've not heard of them, > they're sort of the original low-residency MFA program. You could look 'em > up. . . . > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun May 23 16:19:10 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:19:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity In-Reply-To: <200405231851.i4NIp2XE032479@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> At 02:51 PM 5/23/2004 -0400, our Bob wrote: No. The body of poetry which I have not yet studied sufficiently to = divide with as much confidence as I'd like to into sub-categories of = sub-categories, and so on. I've studied it enough to be able to divide = it into two major categories, and divide "plaintext poetry" into what = I'm now calling "parlor-musing plainlays" from plaintext poetry that = isn't that. See my blog entry for details. or look up under keyword divide (Procrustes just gotta do his thing) (kinda hopeless to maunder on given this hard a case, but what the hey...) Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 23 16:26:57 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:26:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002701c440f4$3b8d9970$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01ad01c440f8$a04e0030$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001301c440fc$09d421d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01d701c440fe$a4358be0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003c01c44104$4cc9ba60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I actually don't have a huge problem with either "songmode" or "plaintext" poetry. But how are they different from "formal" and "free verse"? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch Bob, I think that's the problem people have with you. There's nothing wrong with working on the development of a taxonomy of burstnorm poetry. I'd say it's a valuable addition to contemporary scholarship. As you know, both David Graham and I have praised your MNLMLST poetry essay, and I use it regularly in Poetry Workshop classes. Prof. Graham said something good about it? I didn't know that. I thank you again for your kindness toward it. The problem is in your extending the taxonomy to an area of poetry that you claim to neither know or care about -- and finding dismissive and derogatory labels for that poetry, and everyone who's involved with it. I'm tired of saying that's not so. I hope to make that clear in the essay I'm writing about the contemporary state of American poetry. Incidentally, "plainlay" is not intended to be dismissive or derogatory. If it is, then someone should tell me so. A bonus would be if he could suggest a better term. It's supposed to be a way around "Iowa Workshop Poem" and "McPoem." The main terms in my poetry taxonomy are "songmode poetry," "plaintext poetry" and "burstnorm poetry," each chosen after a great deal of thought over years to neutrally give a quick rough idea of what they mean. Maybe I should retreat to Iowa Plaintext Poem, but I wanted a shorter name. . . . --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 23 16:33:18 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:33:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Now, here again, just as I start to accept Bob's categorizing. Plaintext and Songmode strike me as reasonably neutral, and I figured maybe he was retreating from the snarkiness of "Iowa Workshop Poems" or "Iowa Plainlays." But "parlor-musing plainlays" goes back to snarky. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Spacks To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 4:19 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity At 02:51 PM 5/23/2004 -0400, our Bob wrote: No. The body of poetry which I have not yet studied sufficiently to = divide with as much confidence as I'd like to into sub-categories of = sub-categories, and so on. I've studied it enough to be able to divide = it into two major categories, and divide "plaintext poetry" into what = I'm now calling "parlor-musing plainlays" from plaintext poetry that = isn't that. See my blog entry for details. or look up under keyword divide (Procrustes just gotta do his thing) (kinda hopeless to maunder on given this hard a case, but what the hey...) Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 23 16:36:46 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 15:36:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Milosz Message-ID: Realism We are not so badly off, if we can Admire Dutch painting. For that means We shrug off what we have been told For a hundred, two hundred years. Though we lost Much of our previous confidence. Now we agree That those trees outside the window, which probably exist, Only pretend to greenness and treeness And that the language loses when it tries to cope With clusters of molecules. And yet, this here: A jar, a tin plate, a half-peeled lemon, Walnuts, a loaf of bread, last--and so strongly It is hard not to believe in their lastingness. And thus abstract art is brought to shame, Even if we do not deserve any other. Therefore I enter those landscapes Under a cloudy sky from which a ray Shoots out, and in the middle of dark plains A spot of brightness glows. Or the shore With huts, boats, and on yellowish ice Tiny figures skating. All this Is here eternally, just because once it was. Splendor (certainly incomprehensible) Touches a cracked wall, a refuse heap, The floor of an inn, jerkins of the rustics, A broom, and two fish bleeding on a board. Rejoice! Give thanks! I raised my voice To join them in their choral singing, Amid their ruffles, collets, and silk skirts, One of them already, who vanished long ago. And our song soared up like smoke from a censer. --Czeslaw Milosz. *Facing the River*. Trans. Milosz and Robert Hass. Manchester: Carcanet, 1995. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 17:24:56 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:24:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002701c440f4$3b8d9970$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01ad01c440f8$a04e0030$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001301c440fc$09d421d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01d701c440fe$a4358be0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003c01c44104$4cc9ba60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <021101c4410c$680de2d0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I actually don't have a huge problem with either "songmode" or "plaintext" poetry. But how are they different from "formal" and "free verse"? Wow, I'm making progress. "Free verse" doesn't work because most "burstnorm poetry" is free verse. Some burstnorm poetry is also formal. Also, I wanted three similar-sounding terms. I think I had some other reason for not wanting "formal," but can't remember. Ah, I think maybe it's that some free verse can be songmode--I'm thinking of richly alliterative/assonant/consonant maybe even internally-rhyming idioformular poetry. (Had to throw in another coinage: "idioformular" for "finds its own form" as opposed to "classiformular" for "adheres to a classical form.") Right now I'm focusing on conventional plain-speaking freeverse, so somewhat out of touch with my over-all taxonomy. One last consideration which might apply to "formal poetry" is that I sometimes will use my own term to keep from misusing, or seeming to misuse, a term already in use. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun May 23 17:29:13 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 14:29:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] another yowlp from the WonderPoem School Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523142446.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> really drowning not waving here, may I point out that once one yields to BURSTNORM (flashing lights, Nude Nudes, New-Noo) -- no matter how inane many of the instances of the "mode" may be -- the game's over, the harm's done, I'm Clark Kent and he's Superman (but can he fly? -- don't quibble) he's Bursty Bob and I'm Just Plain Norm. I've never written a poem that wasn't experimental. That's what it means to write a poem. Yet I'm to rest happily taxonomized wearing my Iowa armband in my little ho-hum box because some who-knows-who grabs an avant-guide flag (leading us where? who cares, just so long as it's the new thing, poems written in formulae, oi vay) emblazon'd with KAZAM! POW! HOT!) BURSTNORM? phooey -- BLURBNORM! From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 17:30:01 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:30:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <021b01c4410d$1d265c10$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Now, here again, just as I start to accept Bob's categorizing. Plaintext and Songmode strike me as reasonably neutral, and I figured maybe he was retreating from the snarkiness of "Iowa Workshop Poems" or "Iowa Plainlays." But "parlor-musing plainlays" goes back to snarky. I don't disagree about "parlor-musing plainlays," which is also too many words. The problem is, what better term is there? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun May 23 17:49:08 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 17:49:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harry Matthews, p. 76 fr. *Selected Declarations of Dependence* Message-ID: <003301c4410f$c67cd080$ebe8c043@computer> > "When the omelet's away, > The eggs will play" > --French proverb > > > You can't make an omelet with good intentions: > Too many cooks are better than no bread. > One man's meat, as good as a mile, > Once burned, spoils the broth. > Too many cooks are worth two in the bush-- > You can't make an omelet on the other side of the fence. > Half a loaf is better than two in the bush-- > Half a loaf in a storm! > It's an ill wind that spoils the broth. > > You can't make an omelet--but few are chosen: > A fool and his money are better than no bread. > One man's meat gets the worm-- > Look before you spoil the broth! > Too many cooks take the hindmost. > (One man's meat is greener on the other side of the fence. . . . > Half a loaf is better than no silver lining. > Half a loaf is better without breaking eggs: > Man proposes, and spoils the broth. > > You can't make an omelet, and God disposes. > One man's meat is better than no bread. > One man's meat is worth two in the bush. > (Sticks and stones spoil the broth.) > Too many cooks, twice shy. > Half a loaf is better than the other side of the fence. > Half a loaf is as good as a mile. > Half a loaf has its day. > Many are called, but spoil the broth. > > --Harry Matthews > > fr. Selected Declarations of Dependence > [Calais, Vermont: Z Press, 1977; repr. > Los Angeles: Sun & Moon Press, 1996] > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2532 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 23 18:35:10 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:35:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021b01c4410d$1d265c10$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004801c44116$36a6e610$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> The problem is, a taxonomist, to do the job properly, needs to be nonjudgmental, and there's no way "parlor-musing" is nonjudgmental. I don't entirely disagree with Barry about "burstnorm" being judgmental, but we're human and you can't avoid connotative language altogether. However, "parlor-musing" isn't even trying. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity Now, here again, just as I start to accept Bob's categorizing. Plaintext and Songmode strike me as reasonably neutral, and I figured maybe he was retreating from the snarkiness of "Iowa Workshop Poems" or "Iowa Plainlays." But "parlor-musing plainlays" goes back to snarky. I don't disagree about "parlor-musing plainlays," which is also too many words. The problem is, what better term is there? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 18:53:15 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:53:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Koch References: <1530-220045023165432856@M2W074.mail2web.com> <010f01c440eb$2dc390a0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002701c440f4$3b8d9970$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01ad01c440f8$a04e0030$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001301c440fc$09d421d0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01d701c440fe$a4358be0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003c01c44104$4cc9ba60$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021101c4410c$680de2d0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <026801c44118$bdeaf8d0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I just remembered why I didn't want to call "songmode" poetry "formal" poetry--because it suggests that free verse poetry is formless, something it has often been criticized for. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun May 23 19:47:40 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:47:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021b01c4410d$1d265c10$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004801c44116$36a6e610$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <02b601c44120$57d51dc0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> The problem is, a taxonomist, to do the job properly, needs to be nonjudgmental, and there's no way "parlor-musing" is nonjudgmental. I don't entirely disagree with Barry about "burstnorm" being judgmental, but we're human and you can't avoid connotative language altogether. However, "parlor-musing" isn't even trying. Gimme a break, Mole. I was trying. At my blog. I had come up with "sidewalk-talk plainlay" for New York school conversational poem. That made me try for a companionable term--a suburban equivalent of a sidewalk. When one is struggling for terms, it's easy to overrate ones that finally work in any manner, and overlook flaws. As for "burstnorm," it was the best of many, many candidates I auditioned. Sure, I suppose it may sound yowwie to some, but I don't see why it won't seem to others simply "rule-breaking" and therefore emptily rebellious. Aside from that, it fits its definition as art that breaks long-established norms rather than exploits long-established norms. If someone would come up with a more neutral term for that, I'd be glad to accept it, but my impression is that people like Barry want what I call "burstnorm poetry" to remain unnamed, and as inconspicuous as possible. An alternative is to find a term as dramatic for nonburstnorm poetry. I just checked my taxonomy at http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html and found my term for such poetry is "livenorm." I recall that I never liked that much but couldn't think of a better one. I would love to have one with appeal. A whole new pairing might be possible.... "Lostnorm" and "foundnorm?" Leftnorm and rightnorm? Norm-abandoned and Norm-woven? I'm brainstorming, which I shouldn't have to explain. My point remains that there is poetry that adheres to certain conventions, and poetry that significantly breaks with those conventions, and that the two are more different from each other than free verse is from formal verse, so should have different names. Bravenorm and Burstnorm? Lucidnorm? Lithenorm? Firstnorm? Truenorm? Goodnorm? How about good poetry and burstnorm poetry? Surenorm? Surepath and Lostpath? Okay, enough for now. I hope something of the difficulty of naming poetries comes through. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Sun May 23 21:02:14 2004 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 21:02:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021b01c4410d$1d265c10$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00c001c4412a$c047f670$6d94c044@MULDER> Better term? The title of the poem. Let the reader taxonomize. Pigeonholat lector. ~ Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity Now, here again, just as I start to accept Bob's categorizing. Plaintext and Songmode strike me as reasonably neutral, and I figured maybe he was retreating from the snarkiness of "Iowa Workshop Poems" or "Iowa Plainlays." But "parlor-musing plainlays" goes back to snarky. I don't disagree about "parlor-musing plainlays," which is also too many words. The problem is, what better term is there? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun May 23 22:07:15 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:07:15 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet In-Reply-To: <200405232335.i4NNZ2XE002405@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523170240.00bbbb58@incoming.verizon.net> At 07:35 PM 5/23/2004 -0400, Bob wrote: >people like Barry want what I call "burstnorm poetry" to remain unnamed, and as inconspicuous >as possible. no, I want ALL of it to remain unnamed, and as *conspicuous* as possible. Bob speaks of the difficulty of "naming poetries." Granted. Because art overspills bounds. Labels limit. And his sub-dividing terms tend to "procrusteanize" POETS, not just individual POEMS that may have some superficial resemblance to one another. Certain terms are useful, but none without cost. "Impressionist" painting, okay. "Impressionist" painter? I begin to worry (what if he had an Expressionist day? --would he feel brave enough to emerge from his convenient cubbyhole?) -- but "Yellow-Green-ish with lotsa Sunflowers" mode? -- whoa! Let a poet be good and firmly Bob'd, he'll wear the arm-band of, say, "formalist" or "non-formalist " Would even obsessive-Bob deny such a spill-over from poem to poet? Add on the sly use of pejorative vs. honorific names for so-called "modes" (and their poets) and the situation become truly irritating. Further, even level-playing-field terms like the ones Bob now tentatively offers in practice still intimidate, over-order, and limit the very quality he seems in his personal taste most to favor, namely works that favor cunning experimentalism. "Comparisons are odious" because at their most lethal they license pre-judgement and sneering. Since I'm with Ted and treasure the right to eclectic practice as a reader and writer, I find Bob's mini-management approach objectionable. Obsessive labeling also tends to handcuff poets who do happily major in one particular so-called "mode," as if all poems that rhyme, say, or use classic forms and/or strict meters were somehow the same for that, or all far-out experimental poems automatically are to deserve a "brave" trail-blazing moniker. But if there's some sort of God-given *need* (beyond self-promotion) for all this mini-break-down, me and my poems will settle for being called "idioformular"-free verse-classiformulist-"songmode"-BURSTNORM "plaintextualist" with occasional tilts toward "sidewalk-talk plainlay" of the New York deli-school as well as a tad tarred with the brush of "livenorm"-"Lostnorm"-"foundnorm" practices, not to mention Leftnorm and rightnorm, if that's okay with Bob... or does it break "some vast eternal law" if Ted and I and others of the "Omnist" (everything) School run free with Bravenorm and Burstnorm, Lucidnorm and Lithenorm, Firstnorm and Truenorm plus Goodnorm poems? In short, if you must sort out poems, do try for some "level-playing-field" designations, as you now claim to be doing...but how keep the labeling to individual poems? -- maybe Koch sometimes yearned for a vacation with the New Jersey Boardwalk Flaneur School? In shorter, what I harangue against is the manufacture of Procrustean beds for those wild adventurers in undiscovered countries, the Poets. (hard to accomplish such a distinction between poems and poets, eh? Hmmm. Gives one thought...) with apologies for being in this instance of the Prolix School, Plain Old Norm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 23 22:59:56 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 22:59:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523170240.00bbbb58@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <000901c4413b$33735990$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Wait a second...who's this tarred Tad? I don't think naming things is such an awful thing to do. How useful it is in cosmic terms, I don't know, but it's a way of talking about poetry, and I think that's a good thing. I'm not worried about it taking over like the zebra mussel, and crowding out every other way of discussing poetry...should I be? But...I don't know where I fit in, either. I kinda like the story of Charlie Parker, too young and naive to know that saxophonists always played in the same two or three keys, so he learned to play in every key...and look where that led him. I think it's a good thing to be able to do it all. You never know when a poem is going to want to be a sonnet, or heroic couplets, or Ginsbergian long lines. So you want to be able to go where it wants to go. I have no idea where I would fit in Bob's taxonomy, and I probably don't wanna know (although I'd be interested, in a prurient sort of way, in where he'd put David, or Barry, or Wendy, or Hal, or Sam). I did go to the Iowa Workshop, but we know that's neither necessary nor sufficient to make one an Iowa Workshop poet. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Spacks To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 10:07 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet At 07:35 PM 5/23/2004 -0400, Bob wrote: >people like Barry want what I call "burstnorm poetry" to remain unnamed, and as inconspicuous >as possible. no, I want ALL of it to remain unnamed, and as *conspicuous* as possible. Bob speaks of the difficulty of "naming poetries." Granted. Because art overspills bounds. Labels limit. And his sub-dividing terms tend to "procrusteanize" POETS, not just individual POEMS that may have some superficial resemblance to one another. Certain terms are useful, but none without cost. "Impressionist" painting, okay. "Impressionist" painter? I begin to worry (what if he had an Expressionist day? --would he feel brave enough to emerge from his convenient cubbyhole?) -- but "Yellow-Green-ish with lotsa Sunflowers" mode? -- whoa! Let a poet be good and firmly Bob'd, he'll wear the arm-band of, say, "formalist" or "non-formalist " Would even obsessive-Bob deny such a spill-over from poem to poet? Add on the sly use of pejorative vs. honorific names for so-called "modes" (and their poets) and the situation become truly irritating. Further, even level-playing-field terms like the ones Bob now tentatively offers in practice still intimidate, over-order, and limit the very quality he seems in his personal taste most to favor, namely works that favor cunning experimentalism. "Comparisons are odious" because at their most lethal they license pre-judgement and sneering. Since I'm with Ted and treasure the right to eclectic practice as a reader and writer, I find Bob's mini-management approach objectionable. Obsessive labeling also tends to handcuff poets who do happily major in one particular so-called "mode," as if all poems that rhyme, say, or use classic forms and/or strict meters were somehow the same for that, or all far-out experimental poems automatically are to deserve a "brave" trail-blazing moniker. But if there's some sort of God-given *need* (beyond self-promotion) for all this mini-break-down, me and my poems will settle for being called "idioformular"-free verse-classiformulist-"songmode"-BURSTNORM "plaintextualist" with occasional tilts toward "sidewalk-talk plainlay" of the New York deli-school as well as a tad tarred with the brush of "livenorm"-"Lostnorm"-"foundnorm" practices, not to mention Leftnorm and rightnorm, if that's okay with Bob... or does it break "some vast eternal law" if Ted and I and others of the "Omnist" (everything) School run free with Bravenorm and Burstnorm, Lucidnorm and Lithenorm, Firstnorm and Truenorm plus Goodnorm poems? In short, if you must sort out poems, do try for some "level-playing-field" designations, as you now claim to be doing...but how keep the labeling to individual poems? -- maybe Koch sometimes yearned for a vacation with the New Jersey Boardwalk Flaneur School? In shorter, what I harangue against is the manufacture of Procrustean beds for those wild adventurers in undiscovered countries, the Poets. (hard to accomplish such a distinction between poems and poets, eh? Hmmm. Gives one thought...) with apologies for being in this instance of the Prolix School, Plain Old Norm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Mon May 24 02:45:03 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 01:45:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity-- attributions References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021b01c4410d$1d265c10$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004801c44116$36a6e610$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <02b601c44120$57d51dc0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Bob, If you ever write your new essay, which I simplistically reduce to "Iowa Plainlays" vs. "Burstnorms," you really should give some attribution to the members of this list. When I left UCLA, I told my favorite English Professor, a specialist in Wordsworth, that "Wordsworth was a first-rate poet with a second-rate mind." He was shocked, of course. I'm sure you wouldn't be. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity The problem is, a taxonomist, to do the job properly, needs to be nonjudgmental, and there's no way "parlor-musing" is nonjudgmental. I don't entirely disagree with Barry about "burstnorm" being judgmental, but we're human and you can't avoid connotative language altogether. However, "parlor-musing" isn't even trying. Gimme a break, Mole. I was trying. At my blog. I had come up with "sidewalk-talk plainlay" for New York school conversational poem. That made me try for a companionable term--a suburban equivalent of a sidewalk. When one is struggling for terms, it's easy to overrate ones that finally work in any manner, and overlook flaws. As for "burstnorm," it was the best of many, many candidates I auditioned. Sure, I suppose it may sound yowwie to some, but I don't see why it won't seem to others simply "rule-breaking" and therefore emptily rebellious. Aside from that, it fits its definition as art that breaks long-established norms rather than exploits long-established norms. If someone would come up with a more neutral term for that, I'd be glad to accept it, but my impression is that people like Barry want what I call "burstnorm poetry" to remain unnamed, and as inconspicuous as possible. An alternative is to find a term as dramatic for nonburstnorm poetry. I just checked my taxonomy at http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html and found my term for such poetry is "livenorm." I recall that I never liked that much but couldn't think of a better one. I would love to have one with appeal. A whole new pairing might be possible.... "Lostnorm" and "foundnorm?" Leftnorm and rightnorm? Norm-abandoned and Norm-woven? I'm brainstorming, which I shouldn't have to explain. My point remains that there is poetry that adheres to certain conventions, and poetry that significantly breaks with those conventions, and that the two are more different from each other than free verse is from formal verse, so should have different names. Bravenorm and Burstnorm? Lucidnorm? Lithenorm? Firstnorm? Truenorm? Goodnorm? How about good poetry and burstnorm poetry? Surenorm? Surepath and Lostpath? Okay, enough for now. I hope something of the difficulty of naming poetries comes through. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 24 06:53:16 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 06:53:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity-- attributions References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021b01c4410d$1d265c10$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <004801c44116$36a6e610$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <02b601c44120$57d51dc0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <007701c4417d$5383f1d0$23efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, If you ever write your new essay, which I simplistically reduce to "Iowa Plainlays" vs. "Burstnorms," you really should give some attribution to the members of this list. Are you sure they wouldn't take me to court? When I left UCLA, I told my favorite English Professor, a specialist in Wordsworth, that "Wordsworth was a first-rate poet with a second-rate mind." He was shocked, of course. I'm sure you wouldn't be. --CE I'm afraid I'd wonder how anyone could think different, CE. But I would take "2nd-rate" as of the snd-highest level, and therefore a compliment. And I would also assume you were speaking off-the-cuff--i.e., ignoring the complexities involved in characterizing minds to make a point. (I think you can't write great poems without having, in some sense, a first-rate mind.) --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 24 07:03:42 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:03:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523131338.00b94fc8@incoming.verizon.net> <005001c44105$30091500$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <021b01c4410d$1d265c10$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00c001c4412a$c047f670$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <00f801c4417e$c82a5a00$23efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Better term? The title of the poem. Let the reader taxonomize. Pigeonholat lector. ~ Dan Zimmerman If you also allow the reader to share the results of his taxonomization, you get me, Dan. --Bob G. To speak is to name; to name is to pigeonhole. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 24 07:13:02 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:13:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523170240.00bbbb58@incoming.verizon.net> <000901c4413b$33735990$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <011301c44180$15c8b170$23efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> What happened? The discussion has turned reasonably reasonable! Anyway, I now have a new name for "standard free verse poem" that I want to deliver before running to work: "primelay." The idea behind it is that it is a poem that has no divisors--that is, it is reduced to pure fundamentality. I'd like it if it came to be prnounced, "pry muh lay," but doubt if it will. Maybe I should spell it "primellay." Yes. Suggestion of primal, also meaning "basic." I go on to "garden primellay" for the old workshop poem out of Iowa. To go with "sidewalk primellay" for New York shcool free verse poem. Criticisms? With thanks to those starting to take me at my word that I'm trying for neutral terms (not counting my frustrated ad hoc ones), and to Richard for actually defending me, Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 24 07:42:04 2004 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:42:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c44184$270e8cd0$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: Jeff Clark's Music & Suicide: FSG discredits the post-avant by publishing it How did my first engagement with the poetry community impact my poetry & life? (9 for 9 Poets Project, Question 5) Free Radicals: American Poets Before Their First Book -- A shocking, excellent anthology John Tipton's Surfaces - A jazz of balance Philip Metres' Primer for Non-Native Speakers -- A poetry in which Ted Berrigan & contemporary Russian influences converge & collide Generating narrative where it doesn't exist: Going from "card deck" to the page in the poetry of Lev Rubinstein, Robert Grenier & John Tipton Rigging poetry contests vs. assigning value -- getting in touch with our inner "Foetry" Why I use Blogger (with an aside on mail art) Dana Gioia: "I have noticed a lot of similarities between the military world & the literary world" -- Dear Dana.. 3 questions for the presidential debates http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 24 08:03:39 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:03:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet In-Reply-To: <011301c44180$15c8b170$23efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: Sorry, Bob. "Primelay" has sexual overtones (undertones?) I won't even begin to go into in mixed company. Back to the drawingboard. Hal What happened? The discussion has turned reasonably reasonable! Anyway, I now have a new name for "standard free verse poem" that I want to deliver before running to work: "primelay." The idea behind it is that it is a poem that has no divisors--that is, it is reduced to pure fundamentality. I'd like it if it came to be prnounced, "pry muh lay," but doubt if it will. Maybe I should spell it "primellay." Yes. Suggestion of primal, also meaning "basic." I go on to "garden primellay" for the old workshop poem out of Iowa. To go with "sidewalk primellay" for New York shcool free verse poem. Criticisms? With thanks to those starting to take me at my word that I'm trying for neutral terms (not counting my frustrated ad hoc ones), and to Richard for actually defending me, Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 24 08:41:36 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:41:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet Message-ID: <410-220045124124136272@M2W057.mail2web.com> And sometimes even an Iowa plainlay can be a primelay. Original Message: ----------------- From: Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:03:39 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet Sorry, Bob. "Primelay" has sexual overtones (undertones?) I won't even begin to go into in mixed company. Back to the drawingboard. Hal What happened? The discussion has turned reasonably reasonable! Anyway, I now have a new name for "standard free verse poem" that I want to deliver before running to work: "primelay." The idea behind it is that it is a poem that has no divisors--that is, it is reduced to pure fundamentality. I'd like it if it came to be prnounced, "pry muh lay," but doubt if it will. Maybe I should spell it "primellay." Yes. Suggestion of primal, also meaning "basic." I go on to "garden primellay" for the old workshop poem out of Iowa. To go with "sidewalk primellay" for New York shcool free verse poem. Criticisms? With thanks to those starting to take me at my word that I'm trying for neutral terms (not counting my frustrated ad hoc ones), and to Richard for actually defending me, Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From barry.spacks at verizon.net Mon May 24 10:18:42 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 07:18:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:from Norm on Ted to Tad In-Reply-To: <200405240632.i4O6W2XE004561@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040524070322.00b49b20@incoming.verizon.net> At 02:32 AM 5/24/2004 -0400, Tad wrote: >Wait a second...who's this tarred Tad? said "Ted," Tad -- not a tad 'a intent to tar you with Ted-ish tendencies but reading through your post I respectfully find you positioned about one hexameter away from joining taxonomic-Luddites like me, "Young Ted" and Blessed Daniel Zimmerman who cures my nascent Bob-ulcer with three trenchant lines, viz.: Better term? The title of the poem. Let the reader taxonomize. Pigeonholat lector. Plain Ole Norm ******* Wait a second...who's this tarred Tad? I don't think naming things is such an awful thing to do. How useful it = is in cosmic terms, I don't know, but it's a way of talking about = poetry, and I think that's a good thing. I'm not worried about it taking = over like the zebra mussel, and crowding out every other way of = discussing poetry...should I be? But...I don't know where I fit in, either. I kinda like the story of = Charlie Parker, too young and naive to know that saxophonists always = played in the same two or three keys, so he learned to play in every = key...and look where that led him. I think it's a good thing to be able = to do it all. You never know when a poem is going to want to be a = sonnet, or heroic couplets, or Ginsbergian long lines. So you want to be = able to go where it wants to go.=20 I have no idea where I would fit in Bob's taxonomy, and I probably don't = wanna know (although I'd be interested, in a prurient sort of way, in = where he'd put David, or Barry, or Wendy, or Hal, or Sam). I did go to = the Iowa Workshop, but we know that's neither necessary nor sufficient = to make one an Iowa Workshop poet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 24 12:02:45 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:02:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Meeting Tomas Transtr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=mer In-Reply-To: <00c001c4412a$c047f670$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: Not that I don't enjoy watching all the pretty pigeons come home to roost, but I did wonder if anyone might feel like discussing other things, too? How about encounters with famous poets? In an old journal I found some notes about the first (& only) time I met Tomas Transtr?mer--must have been 1976 or 77. The notes morphed into the following poem, if you can call it that. It's certainly a plain enough lay. . . . Meeting Tomas Transtr?mer A scruffy bunch of student poets crowds the kitchen of the huge patron's huge house. Parquet floors and lithographed walls: surely I am not the only wise guy thinking, "you live well. The slum must be inside you." Yet I cluster with the others around the generous table with its burgundy jugs and finger food, floating on our tippy raft of words. I sidle carefully closer to the skinny, sad-faced poet. Hard to say what I even want on such occasions--the signature on the flyleaf being nothing, dust unto dust-- unless it is, for one unwrapped moment, to be *seen* by such eyes. Yes, hooting at unfunny jokes and elbowing my way past the turnstile of absurdity, still I know any reprieve from darkness will be brief. When I reach the great poet's side at last I am drunk enough to risk a serious jest. "These parties," I mutter, lifting my eyebrows to the throng, "--after a while you must feel as if you are standing inside one of your own poems." I no longer know what, if anything, I meant by that. The look he fastens upon me is real, though, a leonine silence and wary withholding that's all I could have asked for. Fluent in English, perhaps he does not speak Idiot very comfortably. He sails swiftly away down the river of my admiration, this man younger then than I am now, but before he does I shove my precious copy of *Windows & Stones* at him, translations I have underlined and followed around the house like a puppy more midnights than he could know or care. When I get home, head throbbing with more than wine, I discover he has scrawled, right below my *ex libris*, "But the book was *actually* written by Tomas Transtr?mer." ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From chandler16 at cox.net Mon May 24 12:14:59 2004 From: chandler16 at cox.net (tom) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:14:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] please unsubscribe Message-ID: <002301c441aa$433fb1b0$6400a8c0@VALUED976296A0> Hello, Please unsubscribe me. I'm going away for a few weeks. Thanks. Tom Chandler Tom Chandler Poet Laureate of Rhode Island Asst. Professor of Creative Writing Bryant College Smithfield, RI 02917 http://web.bryant.edu/~tchandle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Mon May 24 13:34:28 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:34:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20[New-Poetry]=20Meeting=20Tomas=20Transtr=F6?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?mer?= Message-ID: <1ef.216a0eb7.2de38c24@aol.com> david-- i'm wondering if my meeting with transtromer was during that same american visit/tour when you met him? i'll have to check my copy of his books which are at my office. i worked with robert bly who was then helping transtromer set up his u.s. reading tour. unlike you, i didn't keep a journal account of the moment. but this had to be in the late 70s. i was grad student & co-directed the visiting poets series at ball state university in muncie, indiana. (maybe this was shortly after bly's translations of transtromer's poems came out in *truth barriars*, but that would make this 1978 or later. oh, well...) i picked up transtromer at the airport in indianapolis, about forty-five miles away. it was winter--maybe january or february. transtromer was wearing sandles (with socks), and i was worried that he might start feeling cold and that his feet would get wet with snow, as it was pretty mushy out, but i was too intimidated to ask if he wanted to get a pair of shoes. he also wore a thin jacket--a windbreaker, i think--but also a sweater. i also remembered that he was from sweden, so indiana winter was probably not such a big deal to him, weatherwise! odd that you should mention those lines from his poem: "you live well. The slum must be inside you." that night, he wanted to read some poems in swedish, too, and asked me to read that poem along with him. he also asked me if i had a favorite poem of his, and I immediately said, "yes, 'allegro'." so we read those two poems in tandem--and maybe another--in swedish/english as part of the evening's reading. afterwards, we had a pleasant dinner and talked long into the evening. he was trained as a psychologist and worked as one during his career, and my wife was hip-deep into jung as she was in the middle of her dissertation on symbolism in flannery o'connor's fiction (remember those kinds of dissertations?), so they talked jung. i listened. he was quiet, calm. the following morning he did a little workshop on translation for a group of students. he was a very good teacher, involving the students in the discussion and translation of "allegro." he gave students a good glimpse into the his writing/translation process. since i've mentioned the poem a few times, here's "allegro" translated by bly. Allegro After a black day I play Haydn, and feel a little warmth in my hands. The keys are ready. Kind hammers fall. The sound is spirited, green, and full of silence. The sound says that freedon exists and someone pays no taxes to Caesar. I shove my hands in my haydnpockets and act like a man who is calm about it all. I raise my haydnflag. The signal is: We do not surrender. But want peace. The music is a house of glass standing on a slope; rocks are flying, rocks are rolling. The rocks roll straight through the house but every pane of glass is still whole. "i shove my hands in my haydnpockets" how i love that line! transtromer, of course, plays piano, which he studied when he was a psychology student. not long ago, bly told me that transtromer suffered a stroke (in 1990 or 1991 or thereabouts) and remains partially paralyzed on his right side. nevertheless, he still writes and even plays piano with his left hand. i think transtromer's about 70 yrs. old now, so he suffered the stroke at a relatively young age. last summer, i was sitting alone on a bench in the wonderful rose garden in tralee, ireland, durng the lunch hour. an elderly woman came along and asked if she could share the bench with me, as it was a particularly beautiful may day and the gardens were crowded with lunch-hour strollers. of course, i said, and we ate our lunches. afterwards, we then started chatting (in english), and when i inquired about her accent she told me she was from sweden (she was traveling with a group and was "just tired" of musuems and needed to get away for an hour or so). she was skipping out of the morning's itinerary. she was 80 yrs. old. i told her i had never been to sweden, but that i had once met the great swedish poet tomas transtromer, and wondered if she knew his poetry. her eyes lit up! yes, yes, she nodded. i then recited (well, sort of recited, "allegro"!). she then told me she knew transtromer's work, owned his books, and recalled that poem. a global-poetic moment for swedish-u.s. diplomacy in the rose garden of tralee! well, this is way too much, but you opened up a dusty room, david. thanks! it was a nice visit. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 24 13:55:23 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:55:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Les Murray: "the quality of sprawl" Message-ID: <103.4687ae25.2de3910b@aol.com> http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetry/features/0,12887,1216954,00.html Robert Potts, Saturday May 15, 2004, The Guardian Les Murray coined the phrase "the quality of sprawl", referring to the land of Australia and an ethos and poetics inspired by it; extensive, flexible, exceeding boundaries or measures, genially unconfined. Murray himself demonstrates sprawl: from his teenage years to his current comfortable corpulence, he has been a large man. His poetic corpus is also imposing; his New Collected Poems (2003) - a selection of most but not all his books - weighs in at 577 pages. And he cuts an impressive figure in terms of reputation; critics have ranked him alongside Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott in terms of international fame. He is also regarded as a national poet, the voice - or a voice - of Australia. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 24 14:34:17 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:34:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] striving for sanity Message-ID: In a message dated 5/23/2004 4:35:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: But "parlor-musing plainlays" goes back to snarky. In my taxonomy these would distinguished from bathroom-musing plainlays, kitchen-musing plainlays, frontporch-musing plainlays, bedroom-musing plainlays, and the rather depressing basement-musing plainlays as well as the desperate doghouse-musing plainlays. Does anyone actually have a parlor to muse in anymore? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 24 14:41:53 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:41:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet Message-ID: <136.2ebfac15.2de39bf1@aol.com> In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:43:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: And sometimes even an Iowa plainlay can be a primelay. I guess you heard the one about the farmer's daughter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 24 14:50:29 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:50:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Carrboro Poetry Festival, June 5 and 6 Message-ID: <1a4.2441d50c.2de39df5@aol.com> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( The Carrboro Poetry Festival is only two weekends away. http://carrboropoetryfestival.org )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) The Carrboro Poetry Festival, to be held June 5 and 6 at the Carrboro Century Center in the heart of Carrboro North Carolina, will feature 40 poets. Renowned North Carolina poets Carl Martin, Gerald Barrax, Jaki Shelton Green, Jeffrey Beam, John Balaban, and shirlette ammons will read their poetry along with some of America's best younger poets--Brian Henry (editor of Verse and founder of Verse Press), Linh Dinh (anthologized in Best American Poetry 2000 and the editor and co-translator of Night Again: Contemporary Fiction from Vietnam), K. Silem Mohammad (author of Hovercraft and Deer Head Nation), and Lee Ann Brown (Charlotte native and winner of the New American Poetry Prize). The festival is co-sponsored by the Town of Carrboro, The Independent Weekly, The Town of Carrboro Art Committee, and Carrboro Poet Laureate Patrick Herron, the organizer of the event. Admission is FREE. (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Helpful links Complete list of poets: http://tinyurl.com/2nfot Reading schedule: http://tinyurl.com/2mhj7 Map your route: http://tinyurl.com/35v6m Parking: http://tinyurl.com/329rq (all links automatically lead to the CPF website; they have been shortened for easier e-mailing) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Specifics: Saturday June 05 10:30 AM - 4:30 PM Sunday June 6 12:30 PM - 9:00 PM Carrboro Century Center 100 N. Greensboro St. Carrboro, NC 27510 (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Patrick Herron patrick at carrboropoetryfestival.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 24 15:01:11 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:01:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] response from Rio Rancho Public Schools Message-ID: <149.2a2246aa.2de3a077@aol.com> Kim Vesely wrote: From: "Kim Vesely" To: Subject: RE: Censorship and Black listing in the Public High School ... Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 10:03:26 -0600 Thank you for your e-mail to the Rio Rancho Public Schools. Recently, the Daytona Beach News-Journal published an editorial highly critical of Rio Rancho High School and some of its staff members. It was written by Bill Hill, a columnist for the paper and, he states, a friend of Bill Nevins, an untenured teacher whose contract was not renewed at the end of the 2002-03 school year. Mr. Nevins is currently engaged in a legal action against the Rio Rancho Public Schools. While we recognize the right of newspapers to engage in fair criticism, such criticism should be grounded in the facts. We are disturbed that neither the writer nor the Daytona Beach News-Journal contacted the school district for information or comment. This editorial, simply put, is rife with inaccuracies, misinformation, and outright untruths. Its publication constitutes a reckless disregard for the truth to such a degree that Rio Rancho Public Schools has asked its lawyers to review and evaluate what legal recourse may be available. Because Mr. Nevins' case is in litigation and involves a personnel issue, Rio Rancho Public Schools has been limited in what it can say in response to the many misrepresentations that have appeared in the media. We are unable to discuss the reasons Mr. Nevins was not rehired. However, we can state the reasons have nothing to do with the exercise of free speech or free expression. This is not a free speech issue. The original lawsuit included three causes of action. Two of these claims, for breach of his employment contract and for retaliation, have since been dismissed by the federal court. We wish to assure the public that the teaching, reading, and writing of poetry are alive and well at Rio Rancho High School. The editorial's contention that the school's principal ordered an end to the teaching, reading, and writing of poetry is so ludicrous as to be almost laughable. While we cannot discuss a case in litigation, we can address some of the inaccuracies in the editorial that are not part of the case: The editorial describes an incident involving art students and teachers and "un-American" student posters. This incident did not occur at Rio Rancho High School or anywhere in the Rio Rancho Public Schools. It happened in a neighboring New Mexico school district and was widely reported by the local media. A cursory check of the archives of the Albuquerque papers would have revealed this fact. Neither the Rio Rancho School Employees, Union (the union representing most district employees) nor the American Civil Liberties Union are parties to the current legal action. The editorial states that the principal read a patriotic poem at a flag-raising ceremony and shouted "shut your face," to those who did not share his opinion. There was indeed a ceremony held to receive a flag that had been flown in the war theatre and donated to the school. A poem written by a soldier serving in Iraq was read (not shouted), but not by the principal. The "shut your face" reference is part of this poem. The editorial states that Mr. Nevins was unable to go to work at another school because the principal wouldn't forward his credentials. On September 11, 2003, the Rio Rancho Observer reported that Mr. Nevins was employed at a public charter school in Albuquerque. Procedurally, requests for credentials must be properly authorized by the employee and submitted to the Human Resources Department (not the principal). All such requests are promptly processed. The editorial describes a poem written by a student named Courtney, and states that her mother (described as being a teacher at the school) was ordered by the principal to destroy the girl's poem or face dismissal. Not true. The student's mother is not a teacher; however, she was and continues to be employed by the school district. She was never threatened with being fired, nor was she ordered to destroy the poem. The district stands behind former RRHS principal Gary Tripp and others who have been unfairly maligned in this editorial and in other media in the months since Mr. Nevins' departure. We also regret that Courtney and her family have been subjected to unwanted public attention. About a year ago, Courtney wrote a statement that was published in two local papers as a letter to the editor. She has given us permission to share this letter with you, and we hope it helps you further understand this situation. Thank you for your inquiry and for giving us the opportunity to respond. We look forward to a resolution of this issue in the legal system. Kim Vesely Communications Officer Rio Rancho Public Schools ______ To Whom It May Concern: This is the first and last time I will discuss publicly the controversy surrounding my poem, the Slam Poetry Club, and RRHS teacher Bill Nevins, the club's sponsor. During the fall semester at RRHS I wrote a poem entitled "Revolution X." I, along with other students, delivered poetry in the Performing Arts Center at the high school. We received praise from staff and students in the packed auditorium. Early in the spring term, I read my poem again on the school announcements. This poem is a social commentary. It comments on how our society claims to value education, but in actuality spends energy, time and resources on other things, such as war. A staff member, who has a military background and military mindset, complained about the poem, saying it was an anti-war speech. I can only assume that he cannot distinguish between a speech and a poem, or that he did not recognize it as an allegory. Due to the complaint, the administration asked for a copy of the poem. No one demanded that my parents "search my room" for the poem, as has been reported. I delivered it to the RRHS administrators when I got back from Spring Break because they wished to read it. They read it, looking for two things: profanity and incitement to violence. They found neither. I was not disciplined. My freedom of speech was not violated. It has been suggested that I was not disciplined because my parents are on staff at the high school. Let me assure you that's not the case. In my years at Rio Rancho High School, I've been tardy to class and been busted for dress code, receiving my fair share of hours in after-school detention. Staff members' kids are not given preferential treatment. When I asked the administration why Mr. Nevins was put on administrative leave, I was told that the reasons would not be discussed with me, but that they had absolutely nothing to do with me or my poem. I accept that. The administration at RRHS has been nothing but supportive of my poetry endeavors and continue to encourage my writing, even in light of all this nonsense. Will the Slam Poetry Club continue to function in the absence of Mr. Nevins? I don't know. I don't plan to participate because I simply do not have the time. I'm trying to make a good grade in Chemistry, maintain my GPA, choose a college for next year, and get on with my life. However, I am angry about two things. My poem has been put on the Internet. I did not give permission for anyone to print it or copy it. What makes it worse is that lines have been changed and added. My poem has been prostituted for the world to see. My freedom of speech has been violated because I chose not to speak, but now my words are under scrutiny despite my attempts otherwise. My family and I have been bombarded for weeks with questions about all of this by newspapers, TV stations, and even national publications. My family's well-earned Spring Break was interrupted repeatedly. This has caused undue stress for my family and is not appreciated. I will comment no further on the subject. I will accept neither calls nor visitors wishing to discuss anything pertaining to this issue. Now that curiosity has been satisfied, I can only hope that we will focus on something more important, like bringing home everyone fighting in the war we insist on having. Sincerely, Courtney Butler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Mon May 24 15:05:57 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:05:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: Message-ID: Nice dig at one's own narcissism, David. David Letterman's "Brush with greatness" was one of my favorite features of his old show, recounting encounters with celebrities by the audience. I would like to write a poem about Robert Bly, whose 1999 BAP Anthology is surprisingly good, but his narcissism so dominates a room there is no room left for another voice. My god, always that vest and that scarf and that harelip nasal voice! Levine-- good man! Stern-- shifty-eyed slimebag. Hirsch-- ambition caught in its own headlights. Brautigan-- funny as hell. Snyder-- resting on his laurels. "Sir Beat." Koch-- entertaining, expansive, surprised by how much I liked him. Carolyn Kizer-- salty old broad. Heard her newly completed "Pro Femina" (took her twenty years or so) at a venue where I was also featured. Hard not to like. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Meeting Tomas Transtr?mer | | Not that I don't enjoy watching all the pretty pigeons come home to roost, | but I did wonder if anyone might feel like discussing other things, too? | | How about encounters with famous poets? | | In an old journal I found some notes about the first (& only) time I met | Tomas Transtr?mer--must have been 1976 or 77. The notes morphed into the | following poem, if you can call it that. It's certainly a plain enough lay. | . . . | | | | Meeting Tomas Transtr?mer | | | A scruffy bunch of student poets crowds the kitchen | of the huge patron's huge house. Parquet floors | and lithographed walls: surely I am not | the only wise guy thinking, "you live well. The slum | must be inside you." Yet I cluster with the others | around the generous table with its burgundy jugs | and finger food, floating on our tippy raft | of words. I sidle carefully closer | to the skinny, sad-faced poet. Hard to say | what I even want on such occasions--the signature | on the flyleaf being nothing, dust unto dust-- | unless it is, for one unwrapped moment, | to be *seen* by such eyes. Yes, hooting | at unfunny jokes and elbowing my way past | the turnstile of absurdity, still I know | any reprieve from darkness will be brief. | | When I reach the great poet's side at last | I am drunk enough to risk a serious jest. | "These parties," I mutter, lifting my eyebrows | to the throng, "--after a while you must feel | as if you are standing inside one of | your own poems." I no longer know what, | if anything, I meant by that. The look he fastens | upon me is real, though, a leonine silence | and wary withholding that's all I could have asked for. | Fluent in English, perhaps he does not | speak Idiot very comfortably. He sails swiftly away | down the river of my admiration, this man | younger then than I am now, but before he does | I shove my precious copy of *Windows & Stones* | at him, translations I have underlined and followed | around the house like a puppy more midnights | than he could know or care. When I get home, | head throbbing with more than wine, I discover | he has scrawled, right below my *ex libris*, "But | the book was *actually* written by Tomas Transtr?mer." | | ==================================================== | David Graham | grahamd at ripon.edu | Home Page: | http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html | Poetry Library: | http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html | ==================================================== | | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon May 24 14:54:24 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:54:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Les Murray: "the quality of sprawl" In-Reply-To: <103.4687ae25.2de3910b@aol.com> Message-ID: I met Les Murray in San Francisco in about 1980, when he was hardly known in the states. I was introduced to his work by an Australian poet friend named Kevin Hart. Even in 1980, Les Murray had achieved a good deal of bodily sprawl?so much so that one wag in Australia had already written an essay on him, one of whose subtitle?s was ?His Whiteness.? I corresponded with Murray for a number of years and can take some credit in helping introduce him to an American audience by publishing him (as guest editor) in Threepenny review and Occident. And for a while, I was publishing poems more often in Australia than in America, partly thanks to Murray?s editorship of Poetry Australia. Paul Lake on 5/24/04 12:55 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetry/features/0,12887,1216954,00.html > Robert Potts, Saturday May 15, 2004, The Guardian > Les Murray coined the phrase "the quality of sprawl", referring to the land of > Australia and an ethos and poetics inspired by it; extensive, flexible, > exceeding boundaries or measures, genially unconfined. Murray himself > demonstrates sprawl: from his teenage years to his current comfortable > corpulence, he has been a large man. His poetic corpus is also imposing; his > New Collected Poems (2003) - a selection of most but not all his books - > weighs in at 577 pages. And he cuts an impressive figure in terms of > reputation; critics have ranked him alongside Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott > in terms of international fame. He is also regarded as a national poet, the > voice - or a voice - of Australia. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 24 15:17:33 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:17:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Meeting Tomas Transtr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=mer In-Reply-To: <1ef.216a0eb7.2de38c24@aol.com> Message-ID: on 5/24/04 12:34 PM, Thom424 at aol.com at Thom424 at aol.com wrote: david-- i'm wondering if my meeting with transtromer was during that same american visit/tour when you met him? i'll have to check my copy of his books which are at my office. i worked with robert bly who was then helping transtromer set up his u.s. reading tour. unlike you, i didn't keep a journal account of the moment. but this had to be in the late 70s. i was grad student & co-directed the visiting poets series at ball state university in muncie, indiana. (maybe this was shortly after bly's translations of transtromer's poems came out in *truth barriars*, but that would make this 1978 or later. oh, well...) "Allegro" is my favorite Transtr?mer poem, Thom. I can't bring up the exact date of Transtr?mer's Massachusetts visit--I think it was either right before or right after I went to graduate school, so I'm guessing 1976 or 77. Coulda been 1978, though I think it was before *Truth Barriers* appeared in this country. I found the notes on Transtr?mer in an old journal, but not one contemporaneous with his visit. What strikes me most now, of course, is how young he was then, in his mid/late forties. Transtr?mer really did write in my copy of the Swenson translation as I reported in the poem. I was living at the time in Worcester MA, and had recently fallen in love with the Swenson, then the Bly translations of Transtr?mer in *Friends, You Drank Some Darkness*, which included "The Scattered Congregation" poem that I quoted in mine. Bly was involved in this visit, too, that I remember. Bly read so often in Worcester in those days that he reported that, when the family ran short of funds, his kids would beg him to "please go to Worcester, Daddy!" It was a great place for a young poet to live back then--maybe it still is. I know that just about every poet I cared about came through on reading tours: it was, I suppose, the last great infusion of government funding for such stuff. In just 2 years I heard Bly, Kinnell, Levertov, Ignatow, Kumin, Edson, James Wright, Jay Wright, Charles Wright, Kunitz, Hall, Piercy, Knight, Hugo, Stern, Merwin, Gluck, Francis, Dugan, Heaney, Ai, Harper, Voigt--and dozens of others, some more than once. I drove all over New England with Bly on a reading tour once, also. I was recording readings for a public radio station then, and so often got to talk with the poets. Most of those tapes, alas, have crumbled to dust long since. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon May 24 15:28:26 2004 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040524192826.61588.qmail@web40405.mail.yahoo.com> TROY (Director Wolfgang Pieterson) This cinematic reprise of the Homeric tale is just in time for those jets departing to Cyprus, Crete or other Mediterranean destinations. In terms of invoking or re-invoking memories of the Mediterranean goes it is certainly successful but as a film it varies from the ludicrous to the unbearable to the pitiable. The mechanism of warring gods so omnipresent in Homer is removed although Achilles divine mother Thetis (Julie Christie) makes an appearance. The film surely evokes the invasion of Baghdad as Troy elucidates a double vision of Greeks (Americans) invading a foreign city in a Mediterranean or Middle Eastern locale, for this area was the cradle of civilisation and also resource rich as first the Ancients and now the Americans have discovered. Unlike 'The Passion of the Christ' no attempt is made to render the original language of the Greek Expeditionary Force which, is, indeed, forgotten, since the language they spoke, known to us as Linear B, has never been translated. Instead we have (mostly) American and British accents which tells us that this is mostly a recounting of the failed and otherwise exploits of recent US/UK character actors. Peter O'Toole makes an appearance as Priam and also plays one of the most notable scenes of the film, where he enters the Greek camp to ask for the return of his son, Hector (Eric Bana) from Achilles (Brad Pitt). Pitt is all sun tan and blonde locks, he renders a compelling athleticism but the other scenes he plays in, especially the bedroom scenes, are nothing more than laughable. The political backdrop of the film is interestingly recounted, as the Greeks go to Troy ostensibly to fight for the return of Helen, the wife of Menelaus, king of Sparta, abducted by Paris, Priam's younger son. Achilles and Agamemnon conflict over Breisis, Achilles' Trojan Priestess comfort woman but also over other points of politics and religion. Agamemnon, driven by his vision of a unified Greece, is dictatorial, his actions often point to a larger pretext as he uses Paris's (Orlando Bloom) abduction of Helen as an excuse to seize a foothold in Asia Minor and thus dominate the Aegean. Agamemnon also respects the gods, for he created them, taking Greece from a country of fireworshippers and snake eaters and making them into a people unified by a polytheistic religion that also happens to be the religion of the Trojans. Thus, religion or politics hardly divides the two sides only the dishonourable abduction of Helen that bodes large in Agamemnon's mind as he calculates the many possibilities that this fortuitous occurence offers to him. It is clear that the Greeks seek to utilise their damaged pride or honour or any violation of the kinship relations that exist between them as a pretext for larger conquests manipulating each and every situation to their own advantage. In this they resemble the course of US Imperialism. It should not surprise the viewer that the parallelisms are as obvious or ideologically transparent as Brad Pitt's accent because the common thread is really rather obvious too and becomes tangible when Achilles' descrates the Temple of Apollo realising that there will be no consequences for these actions. Transparency is the ideological catch around which the film circles constantly daring us to see the all too palpable equations and comparisons before withdrawing to a more neutral, objective stance. It is clear that , unlike Homer, Pieterson endorses the view that human actions are dictated by human conduct and human ideas but without the framing contextualisation of the gods and their squabble there is a tendency for the viewer to feel that the film instead endorses the mentality of Achilles, a Nietzschean Uebermensch, as violence takes over most of the film's scenes. Achilles realise that the gods do not exist and instead of the morality and conduct prescribed by religion inserts a quasi-Nietzschean nihilism and amorality made all the bleaker by the fact that Achilles' views and more importantly, his deeds, have none of the redeeming qualities of Nietzsche's philosophy. He merely offers a vision of the world summed up in an inarticulate mentality of violence, retribution, conquest and blood. Agamemnon creates the gods so that men and women will feel constrained by fear of punishment (by the gods) for their deeds but Achilles is himself the son of Thetis and Zeus. Absurdly the film hardly dwells on this fact for Thetis appears in one short scene. The viewer may infer that to all intents and purposes the gods do not exist and that the film's central conflict is between the dictatorial but comprehensible Agamemnon and the nihilistic thuggery of Achilles. A further echo of the current situation in Iraq is Achilles slaughter of Hector, an act of retribution for Hector's killing of his cousin. Achilles' desecrates the corpse and then refuses to give it back to Priam for sacred rites and burial. Priam comes to Achilles tent to beg for the corpse to be returned and at this point Achilles relents. When the Greeks eventually sack the city (after 10 years not the 10 or so days of location shooting suggested by the film) by using the well-known ruse of the Trojan horse, Achilles at least suffers the consequences of his actions, as he is killed by Paris when attempting to wrestle Breisis from the clutches of the wounded Agamemnon. Apart from the impressive battle scenes, Brian Cox's Agamemnon's diatribes, Peter O'Toole's Priam's pathos and several dozen attractive but essentially brainless actors including Pitt, this film is largely a waste of time. Even the battle panoply of the Greeks is wrong since only charioteers wore the famed Dendritic armour, footsoldiers would have worn breechclout and carried figure of eight shields and the Trojans would have looked quite similar to the Greeks. If heroes fought single combats with other heroes it would have been from chariots since chariots were expensive and a sign of wealth and property. The film is retrospective rather as Homer was also retrospective, - Homer wrote his epic in the 8th century BC but the events described in 'The Iliad' occured in the 12th century BC - peering back from the Classical age to the Heroic age just as the film-makers peer back to those events from the 20th century. This film is an attempt to glorify the actions and barbarity of the presently woeful US administration utilising a warped, inarticulate and distorted account of Nietzsche's philosophy through the lens of beaches, sun, golden locks, and fake suntans but more than that one comes away from the film with the comfortless feeling that Troy fell, that immense human suffering occured and that practically nothing was either learnt or gained by either side apart from the fact that the Greeks gained a useful port exporting even more grain, olives and wine to Greece and that the Trojans, effective archers, were now employed by the Greeks to fight for them. Homer's epic is about so much more than this! Paul Murphy www.theengine.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 24 15:37:53 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:37:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtr=?ISO-8859-1?B?9g==?=mer/Scattered Congregation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Scattered Congregation I We got ready and showed our home. The visitor thought: you live well. The slum must be inside you. II Inside the church, pillars and vaulting white as plaster, like the cast around the broken arm of faith. III Inside the church there's a begging bowl that slowly lifts from the floor and floats along the pews. IV But the church bells have gone underground. They're hanging in the sewage pipes. Whenever we take a step, they ring. V Nicodemus the sleepwalker is on his way to the Address. Who's got the Address? Don't know. But that's where we're going. --Tomas Transtr?mer. Trans. Robert Bly. The Half-Finished Heaven. Graywolf, 2001. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon May 24 15:33:01 2004 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:33:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness Message-ID: Already mentioned dining and corresponding with Les Murray. How about sitting about at a retirement party for my old mentor Donald Davie at Vanderbilt between Helen Vendler (who looked then like a somewhat chubbier Bette Midler) and Czeslaw Milosz and chatting with Milosz. I mentioned how much I liked his poem about reason and asked if he'd read it the next day at his reading and he did. Very cool. Then of course, there's my encounter with Bill Clinton, recorded in all its glory in my essay in The Weekly Standard under the title "Why Normal Mailer's Wife Dumped Bill Clinton." Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 24 15:54:47 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:54:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Murray: "the quality of sprawl" In-Reply-To: <103.4687ae25.2de3910b@aol.com> Message-ID: on 5/24/04 12:55 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetry/features/0,12887,1216954,00.html Robert Potts, Saturday May 15, 2004, The Guardian Les Murray coined the phrase "the quality of sprawl", referring to the land of Australia and an ethos and poetics inspired by it; extensive, flexible, exceeding boundaries or measures, genially unconfined. Murray himself demonstrates sprawl: from his teenage years to his current comfortable corpulence, he has been a large man. His poetic corpus is also imposing; his New Collected Poems (2003) - a selection of most but not all his books - weighs in at 577 pages. And he cuts an impressive figure in terms of reputation; critics have ranked him alongside Seamus Heaney and Derek Walcott in terms of international fame. He is also regarded as a national poet, the voice - or a voice - of Australia. ======================================= The Quality of Sprawl by Les Murray Sprawls is the quality of the man who cut down his Rolls Royce into a farm utility truck, and sprawl is what the company lacked when it made repeated efforts to buy the vehicle back and repair its image Sprawl is doing your farming ny aeroplane, roughly, or driving a hitchhiker that extra hundred miles home. It is the rococo of being your own still centre. It is never lighting cigars with ten-dollar notes: that's idiot ostentation and murder of starving people. Nor can it be bought with the ash of million-dollar deeds. Sprawl lengthens the legs; it trains greyhounds on liver and beer. Sprawl almost never says Why not? With palms comically raised nor can it be dressed for, not even in running shoes worn with mink and a nose ring. That is society. That's style. Sprawl is more like the thirteenth banana in a dozen or anyway the fourteenth. Sprawl is Hank Stamper in Never Give an Inch bisecting an obstructive official's desk with a chain saw. Not harming the official. Sprawl is never brutal though it's often intransigent. Sprawl is never Simon de Montfort at a town storming: Kill them all! God will know his own. Knowing the man's name this was said to might be sprawl. Sprawl occurs in art. The fifteenth to twenty-first lines in a sonnet, for example. And in certain paintings; I have sprawl enough to have forgotten which paintings. Turner's glorious Burning of the Houses of Parliment comes to mind, a doubling bannered triumph of sprawl - except, he didn't fire them. Sprawl gets up the nose of many kinds of people (every kind that comes in kinds) whose futures don't include it. Some decry it as criminal presumption, silken robed Pope Alexander dividing the new world between Spain and Portugal. If he smiled in petto afterwards, perhaps the thing did have sprawl. Sprawl really is classless, though. It's John Christopher Frederick Murray asleep in his neighbours' best bed in spurs and oilskins but not having thrown up: Sprawl is never Calum who, in the loud hallway of our house reinvented the Festoon. Rather it's Beatrice Miles going twelve hundred ditto in a taxi, No Lewd Advances, No Hitting Animals. No Speeding, on the proceeds of her two-bob-a-sonnet Shakespeare readings. An image of my country. And would that it were more so. No, sprawl is full-gloss murals on a council-house wall. Sprawl leans on things. It is loose limbed in its mind. Reprimanded and dismissed it listens with a grin and one boot up on the rail of possibility. It may have to leave the Earth. Being roughly Christian, it scatches the other cheek and thinks it unlikely. Though people have been shot for sprawl. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 24 16:24:36 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:24:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: Message-ID: <019e01c441cd$24956c50$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> For the record, I have yet to personally meet any famous poet. --Bob G. From kpaul at mallasch.com Mon May 24 16:32:05 2004 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:32:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY In-Reply-To: <20040524192826.61588.qmail@web40405.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040524192826.61588.qmail@web40405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040524153158.H75308@kpaul.spinweb.net> is this a poem? -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 24 May 2004, Paul Murphy wrote: > TROY (Director Wolfgang Pieterson) > > This cinematic reprise of the Homeric tale is just in > time for those jets departing to Cyprus, Crete or > other Mediterranean destinations. In terms of > invoking or re-invoking memories of the Mediterranean > goes it is certainly successful but as a film it > varies from the ludicrous to the unbearable to the > pitiable. The mechanism of warring gods so > omnipresent in Homer is removed although Achilles > divine mother Thetis (Julie Christie) makes an > appearance. The film surely evokes the invasion of > Baghdad as Troy elucidates a double vision of Greeks > (Americans) invading a foreign city in a Mediterranean > or Middle Eastern locale, for this area was the cradle > of civilisation and also resource rich as first the > Ancients and now the Americans have discovered. > Unlike 'The Passion of the Christ' no attempt is made > to render the original language of the Greek > Expeditionary Force which, is, indeed, forgotten, > since the language they spoke, known to us as Linear > B, has never been translated. Instead we have > (mostly) American and British accents which tells us > that this is mostly a recounting of the failed and > otherwise exploits of recent US/UK character actors. > Peter O'Toole makes an appearance as Priam and also > plays one of the most notable scenes of the film, > where he enters the Greek camp to ask for the return > of his son, Hector (Eric Bana) from Achilles (Brad > Pitt). Pitt is all sun tan and blonde locks, he > renders a compelling athleticism but the other scenes > he plays in, especially the bedroom scenes, are > nothing more than laughable. The political backdrop > of the film is interestingly recounted, as the Greeks > go to Troy ostensibly to fight for the return of > Helen, the wife of Menelaus, king of Sparta, abducted > by Paris, Priam's younger son. Achilles and Agamemnon > conflict over Breisis, Achilles' Trojan Priestess > comfort woman but also over other points of politics > and religion. Agamemnon, driven by his vision of a > unified Greece, is dictatorial, his actions often > point to a larger pretext as he uses Paris's (Orlando > Bloom) abduction of Helen as an excuse to seize a > foothold in Asia Minor and thus dominate the Aegean. > Agamemnon also respects the gods, for he created them, > taking Greece from a country of fireworshippers and > snake eaters and making them into a people unified by > a polytheistic religion that also happens to be the > religion of the Trojans. Thus, religion or politics > hardly divides the two sides only the dishonourable > abduction of Helen that bodes large in Agamemnon's > mind as he calculates the many possibilities that this > fortuitous occurence offers to him. It is clear that > the Greeks seek to utilise their damaged pride or > honour or any violation of the kinship relations that > exist between them as a pretext for larger conquests > manipulating each and every situation to their own > advantage. In this they resemble the course of US > Imperialism. It should not surprise the viewer that > the parallelisms are as obvious or ideologically > transparent as Brad Pitt's accent because the common > thread is really rather obvious too and becomes > tangible when Achilles' descrates the Temple of Apollo > realising that there will be no consequences for these > actions. Transparency is the ideological catch around > which the film circles constantly daring us to see the > all too palpable equations and comparisons before > withdrawing to a more neutral, objective stance. It > is clear that , unlike Homer, Pieterson endorses the > view that human actions are dictated by human conduct > and human ideas but without the framing > contextualisation of the gods and their squabble there > is a tendency for the viewer to feel that the film > instead endorses the mentality of Achilles, a > Nietzschean Uebermensch, as violence takes over most > of the film's scenes. Achilles realise that the gods > do not exist and instead of the morality and conduct > prescribed by religion inserts a quasi-Nietzschean > nihilism and amorality made all the bleaker by the > fact that Achilles' views and more importantly, his > deeds, have none of the redeeming qualities of > Nietzsche's philosophy. He merely offers a vision of > the world summed up in an inarticulate mentality of > violence, retribution, conquest and blood. Agamemnon > creates the gods so that men and women will feel > constrained by fear of punishment (by the gods) for > their deeds but Achilles is himself the son of Thetis > and Zeus. Absurdly the film hardly dwells on this > fact for Thetis appears in one short scene. The > viewer may infer that to all intents and purposes the > gods do not exist and that the film's central conflict > is between the dictatorial but comprehensible > Agamemnon and the nihilistic thuggery of Achilles. > > A further echo of the current situation in Iraq is > Achilles slaughter of Hector, an act of retribution > for Hector's killing of his cousin. Achilles' > desecrates the corpse and then refuses to give it back > to Priam for sacred rites and burial. Priam comes to > Achilles tent to beg for the corpse to be returned and > at this point Achilles relents. When the Greeks > eventually sack the city (after 10 years not the 10 or > so days of location shooting suggested by the film) by > using the well-known ruse of the Trojan horse, > Achilles at least suffers the consequences of his > actions, as he is killed by Paris when attempting to > wrestle Breisis from the clutches of the wounded > Agamemnon. Apart from the impressive battle scenes, > Brian Cox's Agamemnon's diatribes, Peter O'Toole's > Priam's pathos and several dozen attractive but > essentially brainless actors including Pitt, this film > is largely a waste of time. Even the battle panoply > of the Greeks is wrong since only charioteers wore the > famed Dendritic armour, footsoldiers would have worn > breechclout and carried figure of eight shields and > the Trojans would have looked quite similar to the > Greeks. If heroes fought single combats with other > heroes it would have been from chariots since chariots > were expensive and a sign of wealth and property. The > film is retrospective rather as Homer was also > retrospective, - Homer wrote his epic in the 8th > century BC but the events described in 'The Iliad' > occured in the 12th century BC - peering back from the > Classical age to the Heroic age just as the > film-makers peer back to those events from the 20th > century. This film is an attempt to glorify the > actions and barbarity of the presently woeful US > administration utilising a warped, inarticulate and > distorted account of Nietzsche's philosophy through > the lens of beaches, sun, golden locks, and fake > suntans but more than that one comes away from the > film with the comfortless feeling that Troy fell, that > immense human suffering occured and that practically > nothing was either learnt or gained by either side > apart from the fact that the Greeks gained a useful > port exporting even more grain, olives and wine to > Greece and that the Trojans, effective archers, were > now employed by the Greeks to fight for them. Homer's > epic is about so much more than this! > > > Paul Murphy > www.theengine.net > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From clitophon at yahoo.com Mon May 24 16:49:04 2004 From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY In-Reply-To: <20040524153158.H75308@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <20040524204904.16286.qmail@web40414.mail.yahoo.com> Is 'The Iliad' a film? --- kpaul mallasch wrote: > is this a poem? > > -kpaul > mallasch.com/mug/ > > On Mon, 24 May 2004, Paul Murphy wrote: > > > TROY (Director Wolfgang Pieterson) > > > > This cinematic reprise of the Homeric tale is just > in > > time for those jets departing to Cyprus, Crete or > > other Mediterranean destinations. In terms of > > invoking or re-invoking memories of the > Mediterranean > > goes it is certainly successful but as a film it > > varies from the ludicrous to the unbearable to the > > pitiable. The mechanism of warring gods so > > omnipresent in Homer is removed although Achilles > > divine mother Thetis (Julie Christie) makes an > > appearance. The film surely evokes the invasion > of > > Baghdad as Troy elucidates a double vision of > Greeks > > (Americans) invading a foreign city in a > Mediterranean > > or Middle Eastern locale, for this area was the > cradle > > of civilisation and also resource rich as first > the > > Ancients and now the Americans have discovered. > > Unlike 'The Passion of the Christ' no attempt is > made > > to render the original language of the Greek > > Expeditionary Force which, is, indeed, forgotten, > > since the language they spoke, known to us as > Linear > > B, has never been translated. Instead we have > > (mostly) American and British accents which tells > us > > that this is mostly a recounting of the failed and > > otherwise exploits of recent US/UK character > actors. > > Peter O'Toole makes an appearance as Priam and > also > > plays one of the most notable scenes of the film, > > where he enters the Greek camp to ask for the > return > > of his son, Hector (Eric Bana) from Achilles (Brad > > Pitt). Pitt is all sun tan and blonde locks, he > > renders a compelling athleticism but the other > scenes > > he plays in, especially the bedroom scenes, are > > nothing more than laughable. The political > backdrop > > of the film is interestingly recounted, as the > Greeks > > go to Troy ostensibly to fight for the return of > > Helen, the wife of Menelaus, king of Sparta, > abducted > > by Paris, Priam's younger son. Achilles and > Agamemnon > > conflict over Breisis, Achilles' Trojan Priestess > > comfort woman but also over other points of > politics > > and religion. Agamemnon, driven by his vision of > a > > unified Greece, is dictatorial, his actions often > > point to a larger pretext as he uses Paris's > (Orlando > > Bloom) abduction of Helen as an excuse to seize a > > foothold in Asia Minor and thus dominate the > Aegean. > > Agamemnon also respects the gods, for he created > them, > > taking Greece from a country of fireworshippers > and > > snake eaters and making them into a people unified > by > > a polytheistic religion that also happens to be > the > > religion of the Trojans. Thus, religion or > politics > > hardly divides the two sides only the > dishonourable > > abduction of Helen that bodes large in Agamemnon's > > mind as he calculates the many possibilities that > this > > fortuitous occurence offers to him. It is clear > that > > the Greeks seek to utilise their damaged pride or > > honour or any violation of the kinship relations > that > > exist between them as a pretext for larger > conquests > > manipulating each and every situation to their > own > > advantage. In this they resemble the course of US > > Imperialism. It should not surprise the viewer > that > > the parallelisms are as obvious or ideologically > > transparent as Brad Pitt's accent because the > common > > thread is really rather obvious too and becomes > > tangible when Achilles' descrates the Temple of > Apollo > > realising that there will be no consequences for > these > > actions. Transparency is the ideological catch > around > > which the film circles constantly daring us to see > the > > all too palpable equations and comparisons before > > withdrawing to a more neutral, objective stance. > It > > is clear that , unlike Homer, Pieterson endorses > the > > view that human actions are dictated by human > conduct > > and human ideas but without the framing > > contextualisation of the gods and their squabble > there > > is a tendency for the viewer to feel that the film > > instead endorses the mentality of Achilles, a > > Nietzschean Uebermensch, as violence takes over > most > > of the film's scenes. Achilles realise that the > gods > > do not exist and instead of the morality and > conduct > > prescribed by religion inserts a quasi-Nietzschean > > nihilism and amorality made all the bleaker by the > > fact that Achilles' views and more importantly, > his > > deeds, have none of the redeeming qualities of > > Nietzsche's philosophy. He merely offers a vision > of > > the world summed up in an inarticulate mentality > of > > violence, retribution, conquest and blood. > Agamemnon > > creates the gods so that men and women will feel > > constrained by fear of punishment (by the gods) > for > > their deeds but Achilles is himself the son of > Thetis > > and Zeus. Absurdly the film hardly dwells on this > > fact for Thetis appears in one short scene. The > > viewer may infer that to all intents and purposes > the > > gods do not exist and that the film's central > conflict > > is between the dictatorial but comprehensible > > Agamemnon and the nihilistic thuggery of Achilles. > > > > A further echo of the current situation in Iraq is > > Achilles slaughter of Hector, an act of > retribution > > for Hector's killing of his cousin. Achilles' > > desecrates the corpse and then refuses to give it > back > > to Priam for sacred rites and burial. Priam comes > to > > Achilles tent to beg for the corpse to be returned > and > > at this point Achilles relents. When the Greeks > > eventually sack the city (after 10 years not the > 10 or > > so days of location shooting suggested by the > film) by > > using the well-known ruse of the Trojan horse, > > Achilles at least suffers the consequences of his > > actions, as he is killed by Paris when attempting > to > > wrestle Breisis from the clutches of the wounded > > Agamemnon. Apart from the impressive battle > scenes, > > Brian Cox's Agamemnon's diatribes, Peter O'Toole's > > Priam's pathos and several dozen attractive but > > essentially brainless actors including Pitt, this > film > > is largely a waste of time. Even the battle > panoply > > of the Greeks is wrong since only charioteers wore > the > > famed Dendritic armour, footsoldiers would have > worn > > breechclout and carried figure of eight shields > and > > the Trojans would have looked quite similar to the > > Greeks. If heroes fought single combats with > other > > heroes it would have been from chariots since > chariots > > were expensive and a sign of wealth and property. > The > > film is retrospective rather as Homer was also > > retrospective, - Homer wrote his epic in the 8th > > century BC but the events described in 'The Iliad' > > occured in the 12th century BC - peering back from > the > === message truncated === __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 24 16:49:03 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:49:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: <019e01c441cd$24956c50$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01b601c441d0$8f58c8e0$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > For the record, I have yet to personally meet any famous poet. > Wait a minute--would Richard Kostelanetz or Charles Bernstein count? --Bob G. From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon May 24 17:36:05 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:36:05 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Meeting_Tomas_Tr?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?anstr=F6mer?= References: <1ef.216a0eb7.2de38c24@aol.com> Message-ID: <007301c441d7$1edb5040$35737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> A very nice story Thom Tammaro from Moorhead, thank you for sending it over. I was in Sweden in summer and I think it looks like Canada, where I have never been. Sunny windy days, like living on the top of the mountains here, with the plus of the Nordic Sea and the different degrees in longitude and the fact of being up there and the vastness of the land. To Tomas Transtroemer the following lines are by Kjell Espmark: So in the end I taught to speak of silence taken from the review of Espmark's book The Other Life published in Italian and Swedish, here's the link of the review I wrote, http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=419 ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom424 at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:34 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poetry] Meeting Tomas Transtr?mer david-- i'm wondering if my meeting with transtromer was during that same american visit/tour when you met him? i'll have to check my copy of his books which are at my office. i worked with robert bly who was then helping transtromer set up his u.s. reading tour. unlike you, i didn't keep a journal account of the moment. but this had to be in the late 70s. i was grad student & co-directed the visiting poets series at ball state university in muncie, indiana. (maybe this was shortly after bly's translations of transtromer's poems came out in *truth barriars*, but that would make this 1978 or later. oh, well...) i picked up transtromer at the airport in indianapolis, about forty-five miles away. it was winter--maybe january or february. transtromer was wearing sandles (with socks), and i was worried that he might start feeling cold and that his feet would get wet with snow, as it was pretty mushy out, but i was too intimidated to ask if he wanted to get a pair of shoes. he also wore a thin jacket--a windbreaker, i think--but also a sweater. i also remembered that he was from sweden, so indiana winter was probably not such a big deal to him, weatherwise! odd that you should mention those lines from his poem: "you live well. The slum must be inside you." that night, he wanted to read some poems in swedish, too, and asked me to read that poem along with him. he also asked me if i had a favorite poem of his, and I immediately said, "yes, 'allegro'." so we read those two poems in tandem--and maybe another--in swedish/english as part of the evening's reading. afterwards, we had a pleasant dinner and talked long into the evening. he was trained as a psychologist and worked as one during his career, and my wife was hip-deep into jung as she was in the middle of her dissertation on symbolism in flannery o'connor's fiction (remember those kinds of dissertations?), so they talked jung. i listened. he was quiet, calm. the following morning he did a little workshop on translation for a group of students. he was a very good teacher, involving the students in the discussion and translation of "allegro." he gave students a good glimpse into the his writing/translation process. since i've mentioned the poem a few times, here's "allegro" translated by bly. Allegro After a black day I play Haydn, and feel a little warmth in my hands. The keys are ready. Kind hammers fall. The sound is spirited, green, and full of silence. The sound says that freedon exists and someone pays no taxes to Caesar. I shove my hands in my haydnpockets and act like a man who is calm about it all. I raise my haydnflag. The signal is: We do not surrender. But want peace. The music is a house of glass standing on a slope; rocks are flying, rocks are rolling. The rocks roll straight through the house but every pane of glass is still whole. "i shove my hands in my haydnpockets" how i love that line! transtromer, of course, plays piano, which he studied when he was a psychology student. not long ago, bly told me that transtromer suffered a stroke (in 1990 or 1991 or thereabouts) and remains partially paralyzed on his right side. nevertheless, he still writes and even plays piano with his left hand. i think transtromer's about 70 yrs. old now, so he suffered the stroke at a relatively young age. last summer, i was sitting alone on a bench in the wonderful rose garden in tralee, ireland, durng the lunch hour. an elderly woman came along and asked if she could share the bench with me, as it was a particularly beautiful may day and the gardens were crowded with lunch-hour strollers. of course, i said, and we ate our lunches. afterwards, we then started chatting (in english), and when i inquired about her accent she told me she was from sweden (she was traveling with a group and was "just tired" of musuems and needed to get away for an hour or so). she was skipping out of the morning's itinerary. she was 80 yrs. old. i told her i had never been to sweden, but that i had once met the great swedish poet tomas transtromer, and wondered if she knew his poetry. her eyes lit up! yes, yes, she nodded. i then recited (well, sort of recited, "allegro"!). she then told me she knew transtromer's work, owned his books, and recalled that poem. a global-poetic moment for swedish-u.s. diplomacy in the rose garden of tralee! well, this is way too much, but you opened up a dusty room, david. thanks! it was a nice visit. thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon May 24 17:37:21 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:37:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY Message-ID: <1c6.19adaa8a.2de3c511@cs.com> In a message dated 5/24/2004 3:50:16 PM Central Daylight Time, clitophon at yahoo.com writes: > > Is 'The Iliad' a film? > --- kpaul mallasch wrote: > >is this a poem? > > > >-kpaul > >mallasch.com/mug/ Where is Steve Reeves now that we really need him? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Mon May 24 17:42:11 2004 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:42:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY In-Reply-To: <1c6.19adaa8a.2de3c511@cs.com> References: <1c6.19adaa8a.2de3c511@cs.com> Message-ID: <20040524164140.J42819@kpaul.spinweb.net> Who is Steve Reeves? -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 24 May 2004 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/2004 3:50:16 PM Central Daylight Time, > clitophon at yahoo.com writes: > > > > Is 'The Iliad' a film? > > --- kpaul mallasch wrote: > > >is this a poem? > > > > > >-kpaul > > >mallasch.com/mug/ > > Where is Steve Reeves now that we really need him? > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 24 17:58:03 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:58:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Musings from Norm the Poet References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523170240.00bbbb58@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <01d801c441da$3266f260$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> >people like Barry want what I call "burstnorm poetry" to >remain unnamed, and as inconspicuous as possible. no, I want ALL of it to remain unnamed, and as *conspicuous* as possible. Bob speaks of the difficulty of "naming poetries." Granted. Because art overspills bounds. Labels limit. And his sub-dividing terms tend to "procrusteanize" POETS, not just individual POEMS that may have some superficial resemblance to one another. Certain terms are useful, but none without cost. "Impressionist" painting, okay. "Impressionist" painter? I begin to worry (what if he had an Expressionist day? --would he feel brave enough to emerge from his convenient cubbyhole?) -- but "Yellow-Green-ish with lotsa Sunflowers" mode? -- whoa! Here's one way it can work, Barry. Say of Mr. X that he is a member of the Impressionist School. You can add that he is also a member of some other school or schools, or assume the person you're talking to is not an imbecile and will realize the possibility of that. Or you can say Mr. X makes impressionistic and other kinds of paintings. Etc. Let a poet be good and firmly Bob'd, he'll wear the arm-band of, say, "formalist" or "non-formalist " Would even obsessive-Bob deny such a spill-over from poem to poet? Maybe I don't say it all the time but I say it enough, that many poets make more than one kind of poem. Add on the sly use of pejorative vs. honorific names for so-called "modes" (and their poets) and the situation become truly irritating. Believe it or not, I didn't feel "plain" was necessarily pejorative. "Plain-spoken" is usually a compliment, as is "plain" when compared with "fancy." What makes poetics naming hard is the super-sensitive emotional irrationality of most poets. Further, even level-playing-field terms like the ones Bob now tentatively offers in practice still intimidate, over-order, and limit the very quality he seems in his personal taste most to favor, namely works that favor cunning experimentalism. I suggested someone come up with a term for unburstnorm that would favor cunning non-experimentalism as much as "burstnorm" supposedly favors the opposite. Digression: my irrelevant motives for coming up with "burstnorm" (which my fellow burstnorm poets have so far unanimously rejected) had almost nothing to do with pr. It was to find a better term than the ones then, and still, being used. One such term is "experimental." I feel that this is a stupid way to describe poetry because, as Barry says, any real poem is a kind of experiment; and many poems I want to call "burstnorm" are not really experimental enough in my view to be called "experimental." It's a complex matter. For instance, sometimes when I make a long division poem, I don't experiment at all--except in the limited sense of seeing whether some choice of words works better than another; other times when I make a long division poem, I feel I'm significantly experimenting; it's generally when I'm trying some technique new for me. A so far failed one was to see what would happen if I made a long division poem's "division shed" (my term for the symbol in long division that contains a dividend) and remainder line out of words. The result seemed interesting but I couldn't see any aesthetic point to it. So I've put it aside. "Avant garde" was another word I wanted to replace simply because much burstnorm poetry is no longer avant garde--although it is still ignored or disparaged by stasguards. Ditto "cutting edge." Note that all these long-in-use terms like "avan garde" could be, and were being, used to hype the kind of poetry I'm supposedly doing pr for with my "burstnorm" term. My main objection to all these terms is that they have nothing to do with what the art they name does, only with its very temporary, and sometimes only apparent, newness, which can't be permanent. "Burstnorm," however, should be less tied to chronology since it has to do with more or less permanent norms, like the one requiring consistent spelling. Yes, to a degree I wanted to make my kind of poetry a little more visible, but I was more trying to specify exactly what it was. I started taxonomizing, by the way, when I found the definitions in use for "visual poetry" defective and tried to define it myself. Visual poets still won't accept my reasoning, which includes the proposition that poetry must contain words--which means that a visual artwork using typography but not words cannot be called a "visual poem." I was going for clarity. I worked on what poetry itself was, too, because I found all prior definitions too vague--and, yes, tending in some cases to exclude my kind of poetry (though in other cases to include lots of stuff I thought it ridiculous to consider poetry). Eventually, because I tend to be unable not to try for completeness, I started trying to taxonomize all of verbal expression--and, really, as much of existence as I could. Sure, I'm limited by having only a semblance of expertise in a few fields I've been or am personally involved in, and a desire to make sure those fields get some credit. Because of the former, I ask others for help. That I tend to get jokes at best in return is why some of my ad hoc terms are often derisive, especially the ones relating to personality or character. "Comparisons are odious" because at their most lethal they license pre-judgement and sneering. Cars are odious because at their most lethal they are used to run over people. Since I'm with Ted and treasure the right to eclectic practice as a reader and writer, I find Bob's mini-management approach objectionable. Okay, be fair, Barry, and tell me just how my calling all your poems, and all the poems by others which you admire, "lumpshit hackets" would interfere with your "right to eclectic practice as a reader and writer." Let's go further and imagine my term was accepted by all the scholars in the field and put into textbooks. What then? Would you decide you had to start writing and admiring other kinds of poems? I think this "argument" insane. Look at all the labels people have pinned to my taxonomy. Does it stop me? Obsessive labeling also tends to handcuff poets who do happily major in one particular so-called "mode," as if all poems that rhyme, say, or use classic forms and/or strict meters were somehow the same for that, or all far-out experimental poems automatically are to deserve a "brave" trail-blazing moniker. In certain respects, working in traditional forms is braver than working in newer ones because you can't use the excuse that you were trying something new. But it is also safer because of all the paths already available. As I said, though, my "burstnorm" term won't celebrate what it applies to any more than "avant garde" already did, and continues to do. Moreover, how can anyone describe something that few are doing without making it seem adventurous for that reason? It's not my fault that people will have to take a person trying to make a poem out of computer languages, paper mache and The National Enquirer as more adventurous than someone making a conventional free verse poem about his . . . grandmother. But if there's some sort of God-given *need* (beyond self-promotion) for all this mini-break-down, me and my poems will settle for being called "idioformular"-free verse-classiformulist-"songmode"-BURSTNORM "plaintextualist" with occasional tilts toward "sidewalk-talk plainlay" of the New York deli-school as well as a tad tarred with the brush of "livenorm"-"Lostnorm"-"foundnorm" practices, not to mention Leftnorm and rightnorm, if that's okay with Bob... or does it break "some vast eternal law" if Ted and I and others of the "Omnist" (everything) School run free with Bravenorm and Burstnorm, Lucidnorm and Lithenorm, Firstnorm and Truenorm plus Goodnorm poems? In short, if you must sort out poems, do try for some "level-playing-field" designations, as you now claim to be doing...but how keep the labeling to individual poems? -- maybe Koch sometimes yearned for a vacation with the New Jersey Boardwalk Flaneur School? In shorter, what I harangue against is the manufacture of Procrustean beds for those wild adventurers in undiscovered countries, the Poets. (hard to accomplish such a distinction between poems and poets, eh? Hmmm. Gives one thought...) with apologies for being in this instance of the Prolix School, Plain Old Norm Time for my latest attempt to strait-jacket Professor Spacks. I am now trying "plainlyric" for what I was calling "plainlay" and then "primellay"--for "conventional free verse poem." I've been slow to use "lyric" because I associate it with trying for beauty, and don't think all free verse poems try for that. I think "plain" might work against that. I hope "lyric" will, in turn, work against the connotations "plain" may have of being poor. As for a term for "main plainlyric," my latest choice is "Iowa plainlyric." To go with "New York plainlyric." I don't like places of origin to get into my terms, but these two kinds of poems are already victims of geographical contamination, so I may as well go with it. It does make it easier to connect the given kinds of poems to their respective schools, the Iowa School and the New York School. Other kinds of plainlyrics I've decided exist are "imagist" and "contragenteel." H.D. and Bukowski. That's it for that level of my taxonomy for a while (I pray). I still want some term for "nonburstnorm," or a pair of terms for that and "burstnorm," or one that is less an "honorific" for burstnorm, so will continue working in that area of my taxonomy. I probably won't have anything more to say about it till I come up with new terms, though. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon May 24 18:25:13 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:25:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY Message-ID: In a message dated 5/24/2004 4:43:13 PM Central Daylight Time, kpaul at mallasch.com writes: > > Who is Steve Reeves? > > -kpaul > mallasch.com/mug/ > Google him. Great star of 60s sand and sandals epics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Mon May 24 19:02:40 2004 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:02:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040524174145.I99512@kpaul.spinweb.net> ok, i was being lazy. i thought he was a new-poe list member from back in the day. ;) you gave me a tease to look him up, though. (ll. 1773-1781 - Argonautica by Apollonius Rhodius translated by R.C Seaton) Be gracious, race of blessed chieftains! And may these songs year after year be sweeter to sing among men. For now have I come to the glorious end of your toils; for no adventure befell you as ye came home from Aegina, and no tempest of winds opposed you; but quietly did ye skirt the Cecropian land and Aulis inside of Euboea and the Opuntian cities of the Locrians, and gladly did ye step forth upon the beach of Pagasae. shamelessly 're'-lined -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 24 May 2004 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/24/2004 4:43:13 PM Central Daylight Time, > kpaul at mallasch.com writes: > > > > Who is Steve Reeves? > > > > -kpaul > > mallasch.com/mug/ > > > Google him. Great star of 60s sand and sandals epics. > From bardo at optonline.net Mon May 24 20:16:52 2004 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:16:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY References: <20040524192826.61588.qmail@web40405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e601c441ed$94463460$6d94c044@MULDER> The Man Who Deciphered Linear B: The Story of Michael Ventris by Andrew Robinson Look inside this book List Price: $19.95 Price: $13.97 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details. You Save: $5.98 (30%) Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours 7 used & new from $10.00 Edition: Hardcover ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Murphy" To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] TROY > TROY (Director Wolfgang Pieterson) > > This cinematic reprise of the Homeric tale is just in > time for those jets departing to Cyprus, Crete or > other Mediterranean destinations. In terms of > invoking or re-invoking memories of the Mediterranean > goes it is certainly successful but as a film it > varies from the ludicrous to the unbearable to the > pitiable. The mechanism of warring gods so > omnipresent in Homer is removed although Achilles > divine mother Thetis (Julie Christie) makes an > appearance. The film surely evokes the invasion of > Baghdad as Troy elucidates a double vision of Greeks > (Americans) invading a foreign city in a Mediterranean > or Middle Eastern locale, for this area was the cradle > of civilisation and also resource rich as first the > Ancients and now the Americans have discovered. > Unlike 'The Passion of the Christ' no attempt is made > to render the original language of the Greek > Expeditionary Force which, is, indeed, forgotten, > since the language they spoke, known to us as Linear > B, has never been translated. Instead we have > (mostly) American and British accents which tells us > that this is mostly a recounting of the failed and > otherwise exploits of recent US/UK character actors. > Peter O'Toole makes an appearance as Priam and also > plays one of the most notable scenes of the film, > where he enters the Greek camp to ask for the return > of his son, Hector (Eric Bana) from Achilles (Brad > Pitt). Pitt is all sun tan and blonde locks, he > renders a compelling athleticism but the other scenes > he plays in, especially the bedroom scenes, are > nothing more than laughable. The political backdrop > of the film is interestingly recounted, as the Greeks > go to Troy ostensibly to fight for the return of > Helen, the wife of Menelaus, king of Sparta, abducted > by Paris, Priam's younger son. Achilles and Agamemnon > conflict over Breisis, Achilles' Trojan Priestess > comfort woman but also over other points of politics > and religion. Agamemnon, driven by his vision of a > unified Greece, is dictatorial, his actions often > point to a larger pretext as he uses Paris's (Orlando > Bloom) abduction of Helen as an excuse to seize a > foothold in Asia Minor and thus dominate the Aegean. > Agamemnon also respects the gods, for he created them, > taking Greece from a country of fireworshippers and > snake eaters and making them into a people unified by > a polytheistic religion that also happens to be the > religion of the Trojans. Thus, religion or politics > hardly divides the two sides only the dishonourable > abduction of Helen that bodes large in Agamemnon's > mind as he calculates the many possibilities that this > fortuitous occurence offers to him. It is clear that > the Greeks seek to utilise their damaged pride or > honour or any violation of the kinship relations that > exist between them as a pretext for larger conquests > manipulating each and every situation to their own > advantage. In this they resemble the course of US > Imperialism. It should not surprise the viewer that > the parallelisms are as obvious or ideologically > transparent as Brad Pitt's accent because the common > thread is really rather obvious too and becomes > tangible when Achilles' descrates the Temple of Apollo > realising that there will be no consequences for these > actions. Transparency is the ideological catch around > which the film circles constantly daring us to see the > all too palpable equations and comparisons before > withdrawing to a more neutral, objective stance. It > is clear that , unlike Homer, Pieterson endorses the > view that human actions are dictated by human conduct > and human ideas but without the framing > contextualisation of the gods and their squabble there > is a tendency for the viewer to feel that the film > instead endorses the mentality of Achilles, a > Nietzschean Uebermensch, as violence takes over most > of the film's scenes. Achilles realise that the gods > do not exist and instead of the morality and conduct > prescribed by religion inserts a quasi-Nietzschean > nihilism and amorality made all the bleaker by the > fact that Achilles' views and more importantly, his > deeds, have none of the redeeming qualities of > Nietzsche's philosophy. He merely offers a vision of > the world summed up in an inarticulate mentality of > violence, retribution, conquest and blood. Agamemnon > creates the gods so that men and women will feel > constrained by fear of punishment (by the gods) for > their deeds but Achilles is himself the son of Thetis > and Zeus. Absurdly the film hardly dwells on this > fact for Thetis appears in one short scene. The > viewer may infer that to all intents and purposes the > gods do not exist and that the film's central conflict > is between the dictatorial but comprehensible > Agamemnon and the nihilistic thuggery of Achilles. > > A further echo of the current situation in Iraq is > Achilles slaughter of Hector, an act of retribution > for Hector's killing of his cousin. Achilles' > desecrates the corpse and then refuses to give it back > to Priam for sacred rites and burial. Priam comes to > Achilles tent to beg for the corpse to be returned and > at this point Achilles relents. When the Greeks > eventually sack the city (after 10 years not the 10 or > so days of location shooting suggested by the film) by > using the well-known ruse of the Trojan horse, > Achilles at least suffers the consequences of his > actions, as he is killed by Paris when attempting to > wrestle Breisis from the clutches of the wounded > Agamemnon. Apart from the impressive battle scenes, > Brian Cox's Agamemnon's diatribes, Peter O'Toole's > Priam's pathos and several dozen attractive but > essentially brainless actors including Pitt, this film > is largely a waste of time. Even the battle panoply > of the Greeks is wrong since only charioteers wore the > famed Dendritic armour, footsoldiers would have worn > breechclout and carried figure of eight shields and > the Trojans would have looked quite similar to the > Greeks. If heroes fought single combats with other > heroes it would have been from chariots since chariots > were expensive and a sign of wealth and property. The > film is retrospective rather as Homer was also > retrospective, - Homer wrote his epic in the 8th > century BC but the events described in 'The Iliad' > occured in the 12th century BC - peering back from the > Classical age to the Heroic age just as the > film-makers peer back to those events from the 20th > century. This film is an attempt to glorify the > actions and barbarity of the presently woeful US > administration utilising a warped, inarticulate and > distorted account of Nietzsche's philosophy through > the lens of beaches, sun, golden locks, and fake > suntans but more than that one comes away from the > film with the comfortless feeling that Troy fell, that > immense human suffering occured and that practically > nothing was either learnt or gained by either side > apart from the fact that the Greeks gained a useful > port exporting even more grain, olives and wine to > Greece and that the Trojans, effective archers, were > now employed by the Greeks to fight for them. Homer's > epic is about so much more than this! > > > Paul Murphy > www.theengine.net > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0500510776.01._PE30_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6537 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fs-truck-iconsmall.gif Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 25 00:42:30 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:42:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness References: Message-ID: <000801c44212$b18e6400$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> MY FATHER HAS LUNCH WITH CHOU EN-LAI In 1939, just before I was born - after my father had met my mother in Manila, after he had courted her in letters from India, where he played polo and once hunted tigers, after they had gotten married in Rome, after he had taken a stateside assignment in Washington, after she had become pregnant with me, my father shared an office in the State Department with Donald Hiss, who was the brother of Alger Hiss. None of these lasted. The war started. My father was posted to China, where Chou En-Lai's Communists shared an uneasy truce with the Kuomintang, as the U.S. did with Russia. He had lunch with Chou En-Lai, and was later invited to Chou En-Lai's home. Chou was indisposed, but another Communist general was there, and Mrs. Chou served them a nice lunch. My mother moved to Woodstock, where she fell in love with a sculptor, and they were married. After the war, my father returned, like MacArthur, to the Philippines, and my brother and I went with him. We fought with slingshots against Filipino street gangs - at seven and five, I'd guess we were overmatched - and my father married again, to a woman from Boston. When Chou En-Lai took power in a hostile Communist China, with Chiang Kai-Shek in retreat to a feckless Formosa, and Whittaker Chambers led the FBI to that pumpkin field in Winchester, Maryland, we were on our way to Australia; when Alger Hiss, branded a Communist spy by Richard Nixon, had begun his term at Leavenworth, I was back in Woodstock with my mother and her sculptor husband, and my father was in Lisbon, Portugal, which had been a haven from the Nazis, and my brother was with him, because by that time, it was considered necessary to get him away from my influence. So I was the subversive? I didn't feel like one. I felt scared, most of the time. I was at boarding school in Millbrook, New York, later to be known as where Timothy Leary did his famous experiments, but not then. Then we gathered, on fall mornings, to watch the headmaster ride to the hounds. That didn't last long either. I was thrown out of Millbrook. I went to live with my father in Washington, Connecticut - that wasn't to last either - a town whose village green had white spires on one side, a boy's prep school on the other, and retired foreign service officers nestled in the hills, where they read the New York Herald Tribune and the Foreign Service Journal. At this time my sculptor stepfather was in India, and Angkor Wat, in Cambodia, but he never got to China. He had been invited by the Peoples' Commissar of Culture, but our government wouldn't let him go. For that he was investigated by the FBI; HUAC knew about him, but he was never called in to testify, to name names, he was never blacklisted. As it turned out, I was the one who was blacklisted. When it came my turn to dodge the slings, the U.S. was in Cambodia, fighting a secret war which spilled over into American colleges. I was overmatched on that front, but only careers were lost there. In China, Chou En-Lai was still alive, but this was the Cultural Revolution, so I don't know about that commissar: good chance he wasn't. My father still lived in Washington, Connecticut, where he opposed the Vietnam War, but voted for Nixon anyway, and Ford, but he drew the line at Reagan, during whose second term he died, within a month of my mother. My sculptor stepfather had died ten years before - in the same year as Chou En-Lai, as it happened. I live in his house now, the house he and my mother built, beside the sculpture that grew to 6 1/2 acres, encompassed hundreds of thousands of tons of stone, and took 37 years of his life, excepting only the two years he spent with my mother in Italy, and the half year traveling in India and Cambodia. I have gray hair now, and grandchildren. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 3:33 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness > Already mentioned dining and corresponding with Les Murray. > > How about sitting about at a retirement party for my old mentor Donald Davie > at Vanderbilt between Helen Vendler (who looked then like a somewhat > chubbier Bette Midler) and Czeslaw Milosz and chatting with Milosz. I > mentioned how much I liked his poem about reason and asked if he'd read it > the next day at his reading and he did. Very cool. > > Then of course, there's my encounter with Bill Clinton, recorded in all its > glory in my essay in The Weekly Standard under the title "Why Normal > Mailer's Wife Dumped Bill Clinton." > > Paul Lake > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue May 25 11:56:47 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:56:47 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner Message-ID: <00d001c44270$e2a63410$561c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Dear All, after having added a freshly arrived SCHMAIKU by Al Aronowitz: Where I live, the month of May Is like a flower girl Strewing petals in my path As I walk to his collection: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=171 here are the latest updates of the Poet's Corner featuring the following Poets: Veronica Zondeck http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=98 Sharon Brogan http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=99 Wendy Battin http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=101 Daniela Gioseffi http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=102 Raymond Bianchi http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=103 Michael Peverett http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=105 Maria Rosa Maldonado http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=106 Todd Swift http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=107 A new section was opened to collect poems on the Father which appeared on Poetryetc with an introduction by Alison Croggon, the listowner, and contributions by: Douglas Barbour, Sharon Brogan, Deborah L. Humphreys, Jill Jones, S.K. Kelen, Liz Kirby, Jos? Kozer translated by Mark Weiss, Nessa O' Mahony, Max Richards, Rebecca Seiferle, John Martin Walker, Mark Weiss, Kenneth Wolman, Deborah Russell, and Helen Hagemann. http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=97 To Barry Alpert's pages two new poems have been added: "THE UNHEAVENLY HOST" http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=521 OBSTRUCT JORGEN LETH http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=522 Under translations by poets of poets: Jon Corelis introduces Nikephoros Vrettakos http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=100 Rebecca Seiferle adds three new poems by C?sar Vallejo: http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=527 here is the sub-index with her introduction to the poet: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=32 Figurative work by Arnold Mario Dall'O with poems by Raoul Schrott: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=104 My review of Four for Glenn by Nathaniel Mackey http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=573 The main index with the featured poets can be found at: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content My best, Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Tue May 25 12:59:40 2004 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:59:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Chou En-Lai In-Reply-To: <200405251543.i4PFh3XE015468@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Beautifully told Tad, many thanks. > Message: 2 > From: "The Old Mole" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness > MY FATHER HAS LUNCH WITH CHOU EN-LAI > > In 1939, just before I was born - > > after my father had met my mother in Manila, > > after he had courted her in letters from India, > > where he played polo and once hunted tigers, > > after they had gotten married in Rome, > > after he had taken a stateside assignment in Washington, > > after she had become pregnant with me, > > my father shared an office in the State Department > > with Donald Hiss, who was the brother of Alger Hiss. > > > > None of these lasted. The war started. My father > > was posted to China, where Chou En-Lai's Communists > > shared an uneasy truce with the Kuomintang, > > as the U.S. did with Russia. He had lunch with Chou En-Lai, > > and was later invited to Chou En-Lai's home. > > Chou was indisposed, but another Communist general > > was there, and Mrs. Chou served them a nice lunch. > > My mother moved to Woodstock, where she fell in love > > with a sculptor, and they were married. > > > > After the war, my father returned, like MacArthur, > > to the Philippines, and my brother and I > > went with him. We fought with slingshots > > against Filipino street gangs - at seven and > > five, I'd guess we were overmatched - and > > my father married again, to a woman from Boston. > > > > When Chou En-Lai took power in a hostile Communist China, > > with Chiang Kai-Shek in retreat to a feckless Formosa, > > and Whittaker Chambers led the FBI > > to that pumpkin field in Winchester, Maryland, > > we were on our way to Australia; > > when Alger Hiss, branded a Communist spy > > by Richard Nixon, had begun his term at Leavenworth, > > I was back in Woodstock with my mother and her sculptor husband, > > and my father was in Lisbon, Portugal, which had been a haven from the > Nazis, > > and my brother was with him, because by that time, > > it was considered necessary to get him away from my influence. > > > > So I was the subversive? I didn't feel like one. > > I felt scared, most of the time. I was at boarding school > > in Millbrook, New York, later to be known > > as where Timothy Leary did his famous experiments, > > but not then. Then we gathered, on fall mornings, > > to watch the headmaster ride to the hounds. > > That didn't last long either. > > > > I was thrown out of Millbrook. I went to live with my father > > in Washington, Connecticut - that wasn't to last either - > > a town whose village green had white spires > > on one side, a boy's prep school on the other, and retired > > foreign service officers nestled in the hills, where they read > > the New York Herald Tribune and the Foreign Service Journal. > > At this time my sculptor stepfather was in India, > > and Angkor Wat, in Cambodia, but he never got to China. > > He had been invited by the Peoples' Commissar of Culture, > > but our government wouldn't let him go. > > For that he was investigated by the FBI; > > HUAC knew about him, but he was never called in > > to testify, to name names, he was never blacklisted. > > > > As it turned out, I was the one who was blacklisted. > > When it came my turn to dodge the slings, > > the U.S. was in Cambodia, fighting a secret war > > which spilled over into American colleges. > > I was overmatched on that front, > > but only careers were lost there. > > In China, Chou En-Lai was still alive, but this was > > the Cultural Revolution, so > > I don't know about that commissar: good chance he wasn't. > > My father still lived in Washington, Connecticut, where > > he opposed the Vietnam War, but voted for Nixon anyway, > > and Ford, but he drew the line at Reagan, during whose second term > > he died, within a month of my mother. > > My sculptor stepfather had died ten years before - in the same > > year as Chou En-Lai, as it happened. I live in his house now, > > the house he and my mother built, beside the sculpture > > that grew to 6 1/2 acres, encompassed hundreds > > of thousands of tons of stone, and took 37 years of his life, > > excepting only the two years he spent > > with my mother in Italy, and the half year traveling > > in India and Cambodia. I have gray hair now, and grandchildren. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 25 13:11:36 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:11:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Chou En-Lai References: Message-ID: <004401c4427b$572db380$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crisman Cooley" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 12:59 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Chou En-Lai > Beautifully told Tad, many thanks. > > > Message: 2 > > From: "The Old Mole" > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness > > > MY FATHER HAS LUNCH WITH CHOU EN-LAI > > > > In 1939, just before I was born - > > > > after my father had met my mother in Manila, > > > > after he had courted her in letters from India, > > > > where he played polo and once hunted tigers, > > > > after they had gotten married in Rome, > > > > after he had taken a stateside assignment in Washington, > > > > after she had become pregnant with me, > > > > my father shared an office in the State Department > > > > with Donald Hiss, who was the brother of Alger Hiss. > > > > > > > > None of these lasted. The war started. My father > > > > was posted to China, where Chou En-Lai's Communists > > > > shared an uneasy truce with the Kuomintang, > > > > as the U.S. did with Russia. He had lunch with Chou En-Lai, > > > > and was later invited to Chou En-Lai's home. > > > > Chou was indisposed, but another Communist general > > > > was there, and Mrs. Chou served them a nice lunch. > > > > My mother moved to Woodstock, where she fell in love > > > > with a sculptor, and they were married. > > > > > > > > After the war, my father returned, like MacArthur, > > > > to the Philippines, and my brother and I > > > > went with him. We fought with slingshots > > > > against Filipino street gangs - at seven and > > > > five, I'd guess we were overmatched - and > > > > my father married again, to a woman from Boston. > > > > > > > > When Chou En-Lai took power in a hostile Communist China, > > > > with Chiang Kai-Shek in retreat to a feckless Formosa, > > > > and Whittaker Chambers led the FBI > > > > to that pumpkin field in Winchester, Maryland, > > > > we were on our way to Australia; > > > > when Alger Hiss, branded a Communist spy > > > > by Richard Nixon, had begun his term at Leavenworth, > > > > I was back in Woodstock with my mother and her sculptor husband, > > > > and my father was in Lisbon, Portugal, which had been a haven from the > > Nazis, > > > > and my brother was with him, because by that time, > > > > it was considered necessary to get him away from my influence. > > > > > > > > So I was the subversive? I didn't feel like one. > > > > I felt scared, most of the time. I was at boarding school > > > > in Millbrook, New York, later to be known > > > > as where Timothy Leary did his famous experiments, > > > > but not then. Then we gathered, on fall mornings, > > > > to watch the headmaster ride to the hounds. > > > > That didn't last long either. > > > > > > > > I was thrown out of Millbrook. I went to live with my father > > > > in Washington, Connecticut - that wasn't to last either - > > > > a town whose village green had white spires > > > > on one side, a boy's prep school on the other, and retired > > > > foreign service officers nestled in the hills, where they read > > > > the New York Herald Tribune and the Foreign Service Journal. > > > > At this time my sculptor stepfather was in India, > > > > and Angkor Wat, in Cambodia, but he never got to China. > > > > He had been invited by the Peoples' Commissar of Culture, > > > > but our government wouldn't let him go. > > > > For that he was investigated by the FBI; > > > > HUAC knew about him, but he was never called in > > > > to testify, to name names, he was never blacklisted. > > > > > > > > As it turned out, I was the one who was blacklisted. > > > > When it came my turn to dodge the slings, > > > > the U.S. was in Cambodia, fighting a secret war > > > > which spilled over into American colleges. > > > > I was overmatched on that front, > > > > but only careers were lost there. > > > > In China, Chou En-Lai was still alive, but this was > > > > the Cultural Revolution, so > > > > I don't know about that commissar: good chance he wasn't. > > > > My father still lived in Washington, Connecticut, where > > > > he opposed the Vietnam War, but voted for Nixon anyway, > > > > and Ford, but he drew the line at Reagan, during whose second term > > > > he died, within a month of my mother. > > > > My sculptor stepfather had died ten years before - in the same > > > > year as Chou En-Lai, as it happened. I live in his house now, > > > > the house he and my mother built, beside the sculpture > > > > that grew to 6 1/2 acres, encompassed hundreds > > > > of thousands of tons of stone, and took 37 years of his life, > > > > excepting only the two years he spent > > > > with my mother in Italy, and the half year traveling > > > > in India and Cambodia. I have gray hair now, and grandchildren. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Tue May 25 14:30:36 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:30:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: <019e01c441cd$24956c50$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: My sketches of famous poets were only from handshakes after readings. I don't really know anyone. So my impressions were not to be trusted, though I enjoyed others' anecdotes. Actually the closest I've come to any fame or notoriety was when Robert Creeley insisted, to the editors of the Cortland Review, that they de-publish two of my essays and three of my poems in order for them to obtain twelve poems of his from a chapbook almost thirty years old. He didn't like what I said about Charles and himself and their Post-Modernist term. There, that's off my chest. I only have the editors' word for it, and given their behavior, the source is questionable, although it happened just as they said. Anyone else been de-published? I was also invited to appear in Poetry Daily, afterwards shunned because I was mainly a net poet, though the lady wouldn't come out and say it. Someone in that pecking order made a mistake, I guess. But hey, I'm happy. "Privacy is the last luxury." --P. D. James Hopkins said something like, "When I behold the greats I hear a still, small voice say, 'Go thou and do otherwise.'" --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... | For the record, I have yet to personally meet any famous poet. | | --Bob G. | | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From antrobin at clipper.net Tue May 25 15:01:01 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:01:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c4428a$a87de700$253f1c40@Emily> C.E. Chaffin wrote: "There, that's off my chest. I only have the editors' word for it, and given their behavior, the source is questionable, although it happened just as they said. Anyone else been de-published?" A few years back, a poet I barely knew (let's call him Poet X) lobbied to have me de-published from a website on the grounds that I was too young and that he was a better poet, yet they didn't publish him. At least that's what the editors told me. (Poet X insinuated as much to me back-channel.) In all fairness, these editors did many things (later) that I read as underhanded--so they may have not been entirely truthful about the de-publishing thing. On the other hand, around the same time I was solicited by the co-editor of a journal run by Poet X. I responded with some poems, the co-editor accepted them, and then a few weeks later, wrote to tell me that he had to de-accept them because Poet X would not allow my work to be published in his journal. So, for better or worse, I'm still suspicious of Poet X. That said, this sort of thing happens more frequently than we'd like to believe. AND...as the editor of a print journal myself, I've had my share of miscommunications that end up making both editor and poet look bad. It comes with the territory. Tony From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 25 15:33:13 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:33:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: <019e01c441cd$24956c50$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00ed01c4428f$205a1e70$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Actually the closest I've come to any fame or notoriety was when Robert > Creeley insisted, to the editors of the Cortland Review, that they > de-publish two of my essays and three of my poems in order for them to > obtain twelve poems of his from a chapbook almost thirty years old. He > didn't like what I said about Charles and himself and their Post-Modernist > term. > > There, that's off my chest. I only have the editors' word for it, and given > their behavior, the source is questionable, although it happened just as > they said. Anyone else been de-published? > > I was also invited to appear in Poetry Daily, afterwards shunned because I > was mainly a net poet, though the lady wouldn't come out and say it. > Someone in that pecking order made a mistake, I guess. > > But hey, I'm happy. "Privacy is the last luxury." --P. D. James > > Hopkins said something like, "When I behold the greats I hear a still, small > voice say, 'Go thou and do otherwise.'" > > --CE I had an essay accepted for a university press anthology of critical essays that was dumped at the last minute. I never found out why, but suspect it was because all the other essayists wrote out of the language poetry school, I out of the pluraesthetic poetry school. And I'm an aesthetics-centered new critic (talk about stupid terminology), they various kinds of politics-centered postmodernist critics (talk about stupid terminology). But the dump was amicable, and I'd been warned that the acceptance of my (solicited) essay was not necessarily final. I'd been surprised to have been asked for an essay in the first place. --Bob G. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Tue May 25 15:40:38 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:40:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] De-publication References: <000001c4428a$a87de700$253f1c40@Emily> Message-ID: Thanks, Tony. I could list many more happenstances like these. One editor, who became pissed at me at a discussion board, had already accepted five poems for his European print journal. He wrote me the day before publication to say, "I'm sorry, but I found some poems that had lain in a dusty drawer for three years that I think are more deserving." An independent guest editor for a magazine with which you are well-acquainted also was told not to include one of my poems she had chosen by the owner When I questioned another editor why I was relegated to the very bottom of his compendium of poets, not listed with the first group, most with fewer publications than myself, he wiped me from his site as well. De-publication? I think there's a humorous poem in that. As an editor I always strive to be objective. I've published people who don't like me. The only thing that tries my prejudice is when a submission begins with a long bragging bio, which I try to ignore, but if the work's no good, I must say, I may be just a little quicker to reject it. Good to know I'm not alone. "Ghosts in the machine." Cheers, CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... | C.E. Chaffin wrote: | | "There, that's off my chest. I only have the editors' word for it, and | given their behavior, the source is questionable, although it happened | just as they said. Anyone else been de-published?" | | A few years back, a poet I barely knew (let's call him Poet X) lobbied | to have me de-published from a website on the grounds that I was too | young and that he was a better poet, yet they didn't publish him. At | least that's what the editors told me. (Poet X insinuated as much to me | back-channel.) In all fairness, these editors did many things (later) | that I read as underhanded--so they may have not been entirely truthful | about the de-publishing thing. On the other hand, around the same time | I was solicited by the co-editor of a journal run by Poet X. I | responded with some poems, the co-editor accepted them, and then a few | weeks later, wrote to tell me that he had to de-accept them because Poet | X would not allow my work to be published in his journal. So, for | better or worse, I'm still suspicious of Poet X. That said, this sort | of thing happens more frequently than we'd like to believe. AND...as the | editor of a print journal myself, I've had my share of miscommunications | that end up making both editor and poet look bad. It comes with the | territory. | | Tony | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 25 15:53:29 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:53:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: <000001c4428a$a87de700$253f1c40@Emily> Message-ID: <00ff01c44291$f54b2410$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > A few years back, a poet I barely knew (let's call him Poet X) lobbied > to have me de-published from a website on the grounds that I was too > young and that he was a better poet, yet they didn't publish him. At > least that's what the editors told me. (Poet X insinuated as much to me > back-channel.) In all fairness, these editors did many things (later) > that I read as underhanded--so they may have not been entirely truthful > about the de-publishing thing. On the other hand, around the same time > I was solicited by the co-editor of a journal run by Poet X. I > responded with some poems, the co-editor accepted them, and then a few > weeks later, wrote to tell me that he had to de-accept them because Poet > X would not allow my work to be published in his journal. So, for > better or worse, I'm still suspicious of Poet X. That said, this sort > of thing happens more frequently than we'd like to believe. AND...as the > editor of a print journal myself, I've had my share of miscommunications > that end up making both editor and poet look bad. It comes with the > territory. > > Tony This seems weird to me: why couldn't a net zine simply publish the other poet? It would not have to make room for him by unpublishing someone. Also, I should think that any webzine that unpublished anyone would look very bad. Who'd want to submit to a publication that couldn't be trusted to permanently accept one's work. Interesting: we learn here of another advantage of old-fashioned publiscation: you can't be depublished from a book or magazine once you're printed in it. While on the topic, I just remembered another kind of depublication I experienced to my surprise: quite a while ago I got listed in the Marquis Who's Who in the Southeastern United States (or some such region). I have to admit that I was pleased. I also assumed that after a while I'd be promoted to their Who's Who in America. Instead I got into their Who's Who in Entertainment! Never found out why. Anyway, one day three or four years ago, I was in a library and noticed new copies of Who's Who in the Southeastern United States. I wondered if my entry was the same as it had been. No entry. I found this amazing. Worthy of being in the thing back in 1988 or whenever it was, and continuing to do more of what had put me there, yet dropped. I had always imagined once in a whozoo, as my friend Karl Kempton calls such things, you'd stay there till you died, or completely retired. I suspect my never buying a copy of the thing may have figured. Another whozoo experience: I got an autobiography into the Gale series of autobiographies of writers ten years or so ago, but still haven't been listed in their whozoo of writers. The autobiography series, no longer going, was much harder to get into than the regular bio series. No matter. The Internet has made such things obsolete, or soon will--for everyone but statoozniks (people centrally concerned with status). --Bob G. --Bob G. From antrobin at clipper.net Tue May 25 17:51:51 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:51:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... In-Reply-To: <00ff01c44291$f54b2410$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000501c442a2$8acf8ed0$42351c40@Emily> Bob Grumman wrote: This seems weird to me: why couldn't a net zine simply publish the other poet? It would not have to make room for him by unpublishing someone. Also, I should think that any webzine that unpublished anyone would look very bad. Who'd want to submit to a publication that couldn't be trusted to permanently accept one's work. Interesting: we learn here of another advantage of old-fashioned publiscation: you can't be depublished from a book or magazine once you're printed in it. Bob, the thing was, the net zine didn't WANT to publish Poet X. They didn't like his work. Poet X hounded them, however, and explained that they SHOULD publish his work. One of the grounds of his complaint was that I was published on the site, and that my work was clearly inferior to his own. Poet X also hassled me privately about this, as if I had something to do with the editorial decisions made by the online zine. It was a ridiculous argument. Now that I'm a teacher I see this with students from time to time: "I disagree with the grade you gave me, especially since you gave Student Y a better grade, and my work is clearly better." The power of evaluation (like it or not), I have to explain to them, is in my hands, not theirs. Presumably, I am a better judge of the quality of a student's written work than the students themselves--otherwise, they should all just grade themselves, or not take my class. Tony From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 25 18:16:42 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:16:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: <000501c442a2$8acf8ed0$42351c40@Emily> Message-ID: <017b01c442a5$f82778f0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > This seems weird to me: why couldn't a net zine simply publish the other > poet? It would not have to make room for him by unpublishing someone. > Also, I should think that any webzine that unpublished anyone would look > very bad. Who'd want to submit to a publication that couldn't be > trusted to > permanently accept one's work. Interesting: we learn here of another > advantage of old-fashioned publiscation: you can't be depublished from a > book or magazine once you're printed in it. > > Bob, the thing was, the net zine didn't WANT to publish Poet X. They > didn't like his work. Poet X hounded them, however, and explained that > they SHOULD publish his work. One of the grounds of his complaint was > that I was published on the site, and that my work was clearly inferior > to his own. Poet X also hassled me privately about this, as if I had > something to do with the editorial decisions made by the online zine. It > was a ridiculous argument. Now that I'm a teacher I see this with > students from time to time: "I disagree with the grade you gave me, > especially since you gave Student Y a better grade, and my work is > clearly better." The power of evaluation (like it or not), I have to > explain to them, is in my hands, not theirs. Presumably, I am a better > judge of the quality of a student's written work than the students > themselves--otherwise, they should all just grade themselves, or not > take my class. > > Tony Yeah, same thing in reverse with getting caught breaking a rule: why are you yelling at me when Hiram broke nine windows. But why did the editor give in, and why was it necessary not only that he publish the jerk but that he give in to the jerk's request to depublish you? I'm simply saying it's incredibly weird. Annoying, too, that things on the web are depublished--such as when someone removes some message of his from an archive. It'd be nice if someone set up an archive for all posts to literary websites, newsgroups, etc., that was inviolable. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Tue May 25 19:03:08 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:03:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... In-Reply-To: <017b01c442a5$f82778f0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000701c442ac$88581aa0$183f1c40@Emily> Bob, To clarify, the editor did not give in. He didn't publish the "jerk" and he didn't de-publish me. However, the "jerk" had an ezine of his own; his co-editor at the time (apparently unaware of Poet X's beef with me) solicited some work from me, accepted the poems, and then de-accepted them when "jerk"/Poet X told him that he refused to publish my work. But that was a long time ago. Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 25 19:43:36 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:43:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... References: <000701c442ac$88581aa0$183f1c40@Emily> Message-ID: <01c801c442b2$1b640c50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, To clarify, the editor did not give in. He didn't publish the "jerk" and he didn't de-publish me. However, the "jerk" had an ezine of his own; his co-editor at the time (apparently unaware of Poet X's beef with me) solicited some work from me, accepted the poems, and then de-accepted them when "jerk"/Poet X told him that he refused to publish my work. But that was a long time ago. OK, Tony, I think I got it now. Now, all I need to know is how someone can tell a site's editor to remove another poet's work from the site and publish his work and only be a "jerk." But I do have friends who will not allo w their work to appear with work by people they consider literary enemies. I've never been given a chance not to appear with people I don't want to appear with, myself. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Tue May 25 19:55:27 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:55:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... In-Reply-To: <01c801c442b2$1b640c50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000401c442b3$c904f120$b6acefd8@Emily> Bob, Hell, I'll appear with anyone. I don't care! T. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 4:44 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brush with greatness... Bob, To clarify, the editor did not give in. He didn't publish the "jerk" and he didn't de-publish me. However, the "jerk" had an ezine of his own; his co-editor at the time (apparently unaware of Poet X's beef with me) solicited some work from me, accepted the poems, and then de-accepted them when "jerk"/Poet X told him that he refused to publish my work. But that was a long time ago. OK, Tony, I think I got it now. Now, all I need to know is how someone can tell a site's editor to remove another poet's work from the site and publish his work and only be a "jerk." But I do have friends who will not allo w their work to appear with work by people they consider literary enemies. I've never been given a chance not to appear with people I don't want to appear with, myself. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com Tue May 25 22:21:03 2004 From: FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:21:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Philly Sound reading... Message-ID: <1d1.21dc066a.2de5590f@aol.com> http://phillysound.blogspot.com PHILLY SOUND: New Poetry to celebrate the Philly Sound feature in M.A.G. online journal and the release of FREQUENCY Audio Journal come hear a round-robin reading of Philly Sound poets: Alicia Askenase Tom Devaney hassen Mytili Jagannathan Ish Klein Chris McCreary Ethel Rackin Molly Russakoff Frank Sherlock CAConrad will introduce the poets, and talk about M.A.G. online and FREQUENCY Audio Journal Thursday, June 10th 6:30pm at The Gleaners Cafe 917 S. 9th St. in the heart of the Italian Market questions? contact CAConrad at 215 563 3075 or Gleaners Cafe at 215 923 3205 From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue May 25 23:36:22 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:36:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem about poetry Message-ID: Always on the Train Writing poems about writing poems is like rolling bales of hay in Texas. Nothing but the horizon to stop you. But consider the railroad's edge of metal trash; bird perches, miles of telephone wires. What is so innocent as grazing cattle? If you think about it, it turns into words. Trash is so cheerful; flying up like grasshoppers in front of the reaper. The dust devil whirls it aloft; bronze candy wrappers, squares of clear plastic--windows on a house of air. Below the weedy edge in last year's mat, red and silver beer cans. In bits blown equally everywhere, the gaiety of flying paper and the black high flung patterns of flocking birds. --Ruth Stone. *In the Next Galaxy*. Copper Canyon, 2002. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed May 26 00:55:58 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 00:55:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem about poetry Message-ID: <2920-22004532645558628@M2W061.mail2web.com> I like this one. Original Message: ----------------- From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:36:22 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem about poetry Always on the Train Writing poems about writing poems is like rolling bales of hay in Texas. Nothing but the horizon to stop you. But consider the railroad's edge of metal trash; bird perches, miles of telephone wires. What is so innocent as grazing cattle? If you think about it, it turns into words. Trash is so cheerful; flying up like grasshoppers in front of the reaper. The dust devil whirls it aloft; bronze candy wrappers, squares of clear plastic--windows on a house of air. Below the weedy edge in last year's mat, red and silver beer cans. In bits blown equally everywhere, the gaiety of flying paper and the black high flung patterns of flocking birds. --Ruth Stone. *In the Next Galaxy*. Copper Canyon, 2002. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 26 07:10:12 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 07:10:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem about poetry References: <2920-22004532645558628@M2W061.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <00db01c44312$05b5f660$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I like this one. I like it, too. If I didn't understand that it's absolutely unique, I think I'd call it an imagist plainlyric. For the comedians outs there, that's pronounced "puh LAY (ur ur snork ur) nuh LEER ic." --Bob G. From elemenope at icubed.com Wed May 26 02:02:24 2004 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:02:24 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Test In-Reply-To: <200405252203.i4PM33XE018096@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200405252203.i4PM33XE018096@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Test -- From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 26 16:27:39 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:27:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Edward Sanders, "Against the Klingonization of America" Message-ID: <002601c4435f$e3fed7a0$8df8c043@computer> > Against the Klingonization of America > > 1. > > Impeach George Bush > Impeach him Drive him from power > Just as we drove the malevolent Nixon > back to San Clemente > > Let Bush flash V's like Tricky > from a copter about to depart > > Impeach the Election Stealer! > Impeach the Impositor of an electromagnetic Police State! > Impeach the Impoverisher > of those who work for wages > Impeach George Bush > Hobble his anger and impulsivity to kill > > Make him just another V-flashing tyrant > torn from his oil-batty military coup > > and let thus a glorious America settle back into > a peaceful destiny > > 2. > > Robert Browning, starts "Soliloquy of the Spanish Cloister" > one of the poems they made kids in the Midwest read in the 1950s > > Gr-r-r there go, my heart's abhorrence! > Water your damned flowerpots, do! > If hate killed me, Brother Lawrence, > God's blood, would not mine kill you! > > This stinging, startling inner thought-flow ends > a few stanzas later with one of his most famous combinations of phrases > > St, there's Vespers! Plena gratia > Ave, Virgo! Gr-r-r--you swine! > > Browning lurks in books with dark bindings > with his eternal notations > on the condition of Grr-You-Swine malice & hatred > > which people feel in every strata > every fence and boundary dispute > every border battle > and Grrr-You-Swine mumble of mal-grrr > in a check-out line > > What to do? > Poetry heals hatred > it's as simple as that > > Poets of the past > oft sang the lays of slayers > Homer, Euripedes, Aeschylus > & the poets of national harm > > Homer sends Odysseus to the Underworld in Book 11 of the Odyssey > where on his way to see Tiresias > he comes across the ghosts of young women > (many no doubt slain in city-sackings and raids from row boats) > whose souls were "neopenthea" > neopenqea > or new to sorrow > > Poets know sorrow like no other set of minds > and so it's one of the great and rewarding surprises > > that poets are the promoters of peace > in our era > > Poets came forward during the first Gulf War > to put their shoulders to the wheel of peace > > and now they come back forward again > to speak to the best of a great nation > > --Edward Sanders > > in Long Shot (Vol. 27, 2004) > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3272 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 16:41:28 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:41:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Naropa this summer Message-ID: <194.2928d64e.2de65af8@aol.com> http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040525/255163_1.html Outstanding Group of Literary and Cultural Luminaries to Participate in Naropa University's 30th Anniversary Summer Writing Program Tuesday May 25, 11:31 am ET Program To Feature Renowned Authors and Activists Amiri Baraka, Daisy Zamora, Sonia Sanchez, Anne Waldman and Others -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dansisco at mac.com Wed May 26 16:43:13 2004 From: dansisco at mac.com (Daniel Sisco) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:43:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <4EA71FFF-AF55-11D8-9355-0003939A93B4@mac.com> Please take me off the E-mail list. Thankyou. dansisco at mac.com From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 20:46:57 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:46:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ns Message-ID: <1a6.24a604b3.2de69481@aol.com> lawrence.e.raab at williams.edu mark.jarman at vanderbilt.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 20:50:13 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:50:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ns Message-ID: That was a whoops. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 21:30:07 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:30:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? Message-ID: <1c0.19a86d35.2de69e9f@aol.com> Robert Pinsky sent me this nice note today...maybe we can get him sometime hence. Onward... My Short List: Donald Hall (lives in NH) Franz Wright (won the Pulitzer Prize this year & lives outside Boston) Charles Simic (teaches in NH) Lucie Brock Broido (teaches in Boston/NYC) Allen Grossman (http://www.jhu.edu/~english/cvs/gmncv.html) Louis SImpson (lives on Long Island) Dennis says John Taggart would be willing and able. (Taggart has a beautiful new book out, and has an affinity for Stevens.) Dan has suggested Wm. Gaddis who gave a good talk on Stevens for the UConn Conference. Jim F In a message dated 5/26/2004 3:32:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rpinsky at comcast.net writes: > Dear Jim, > > Thanks for the invitation-- and I'm charmed by the name, The Friends and > Enemies of Wallace Stevens. But as you guess, October is pretty heavily booked > already. And this year I am saving energy for a couple of important writing > projects. > > I'm cc-ing the Steven Barclay Agency, so they will know about this. And > maybe some future fall, either from their direction or yours, we might be able to > combine your event with something else in Connecticut or NYC. > > I do appreciate it! Thank you. > > Best, > Robert > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 21:36:29 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:36:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? Message-ID: <53.ce0c752.2de6a01d@aol.com> NewPoetry List, very sorry again. I must be completely out-of-it tonite. However, since I have exposed my problem, if anyone has a suggestion for our Wallace Stevens event speaker (poet/critic) in Hartford, in October, early Oct. (2nd or 9th, tentatively), I'd love to hear it. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 21:44:34 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:44:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Shinto Message-ID: <9a.b88c0fb.2de6a202@aol.com> This I really did mean to send to the NPList and I offer it as penance... Shinto ??? ? When sorrow lays us low for a second we are saved by humble windfalls of mindfulness or memory: the taste of a fruit, the taste of water, that face given back to us by a dream, the first jasmine of November, the endless yearning of the compass, a book we thought was lost, the throb of a hexameter, the slight key that opens a house to us, the smell of a library, or of sandalwood, the former name of a street, the colors of a map, an unforeseen etymology, the smoothness of a filed fingernail, the date we were looking for, the twelve dark bell-strokes, tolling as we count, a sudden physical pain. ? Eight million Shinto deities travel secretly throughout the earth. Those modest gods touch us-- touch us and move on. ? Jorge Luis Borges (translated by Hoyt Rogers) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 26 21:59:01 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:59:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? References: <53.ce0c752.2de6a01d@aol.com> Message-ID: <01db01c4438e$30373d00$79efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> NewPoetry List, very sorry again. I must be completely out-of-it tonite. However, since I have exposed my problem, if anyone has a suggestion for our Wallace Stevens event speaker (poet/critic) in Hartford, in October, early Oct. (2nd or 9th, tentatively), I'd love to hear it. Finnegan I'm sure you've already thought of Helen Vendler, who is at least as sure as the others on your list to say nothing of interest about Stevens and for some reason aren't considering her--perhaps you've already asked her and she couldn't make it? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 22:13:42 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:13:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Sibley sayeth Message-ID: <1d5.22601ca6.2de6a8d6@aol.com> "So the enthusiastic praise often lavished on works employing innovatory techniques, new stylistic tricks, novelties of form or medium is misplaced unless these bring, or have the potential to bring, some new aesthetic character of value. In this respect those inveigh against the cult of the original are right; but equally, those are wrong who decry any extreme stylistic or technical innovation before assessing what is being done with it or what might be, what new worlds of aesthetic experience are opened up. Who could have foreseen the glories to be achieved, faced with the first stumbling efforts in sonnet form or the first essays in pictorial perspective?" from "Originality and Value" Frank Sibley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 22:15:48 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:15:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? Message-ID: <98.beafe51.2de6a954@aol.com> In a message dated 5/26/2004 10:00:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I'm sure you've already thought of Helen Vendler, who is at least as sure > as the others on your list to say nothing of interest about Stevens and for > some reason aren't considering her--perhaps you've already asked her and she > couldn't make it? > > Bob, you're on the right track with that suggestion. We had her speak about 3 years ago. She was a hit. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Wed May 26 22:21:15 2004 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:21:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? In-Reply-To: <01db01c4438e$30373d00$79efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <53.ce0c752.2de6a01d@aol.com> <01db01c4438e$30373d00$79efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20040526211439.U77320@kpaul.spinweb.net> here's a crazy idea. 'new poetry' could do it. yes, we could do it. now, hear me out. ;) at the appointed time, we hook-up online either via email or IRC or something and have 'speeches' prepared. we can also answer questions. on the 'real life' end you could hire local college actors (probably on the cheap) to play the parts of us - 'new poetry' - by reading our emails or IMs and relaying them to the audience. you could videotape the event and sell the result on e-bay around the world. to top it all off, send the proceeds (or half of them - the other half to cover your costs for the actors) in small amounts to random poets throughout the world. dreaming in the midwest, kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ p.s. i met pinsky once. i think i sent a poem about it to the list in the past so i didn't mention it a (few??) days ago... ;) On Wed, 26 May 2004, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > NewPoetry List, very sorry again. I must be completely > out-of-it tonite. However, since I have exposed my > problem, if anyone has a suggestion for our Wallace > Stevens event speaker (poet/critic) in Hartford, in > October, early Oct. (2nd or 9th, tentatively), I'd love to hear it. > Finnegan > > I'm sure you've already thought of Helen Vendler, who is at least as sure as the others on your list to say nothing of interest about Stevens and for some reason aren't considering her--perhaps you've already asked her and she couldn't make it? > > --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 22:32:27 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:32:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? Message-ID: In a message dated 5/26/2004 10:21:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, kpaul at mallasch.com writes: > here's a crazy idea. > > 'new poetry' could do it. yes, we could do it. now, hear me out. ;) > > at the appointed time, we hook-up online either via email or IRC or > something and have 'speeches' prepared. we can also answer questions. on > the 'real life' end you could hire local college actors (probably on the > cheap) to play the parts of us - 'new poetry' - by reading our emails or > IMs and relaying them to the audience. > > you could videotape the event and sell the result on e-bay around the > world. to top it all off, send the proceeds (or half of them - the other > half to cover your costs for the actors) in small amounts to random poets > throughout the world. > > dreaming in the midwest, > kpaul > mallasch.com/mug/ > > p.s. i met pinsky once. i think i sent a poem about it to the list in the > past so i didn't mention it a (few??) days ago... ;) > > kpaul, now that's entertainment..tho our typical audience might be a bit taken aback by the "muchness" of such an event. In my very few dealings with Pinsky, I will venture to say that if he could have done, he would have, even for the short money we're offering. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 26 22:35:52 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:35:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: No Pinsky, Next Call? Message-ID: Another idea would be to try Dana Gioia. He's probably busier than a one-legged man at an ass-kicking contest, but he might be looking to get out of DC? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul at mallasch.com Wed May 26 22:55:30 2004 From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 21:55:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040526215418.B20024@kpaul.spinweb.net> Finnegan - yes, he was a nice man. and yes, it would take the right reader/audience to be able to digest such an event. ;) best, kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed May 26 23:11:09 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:11:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the Bully-Fool's Sneer In-Reply-To: <200405270200.i4R203XE026683@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040526195546.00b4d220@incoming.verizon.net> At 10:00 PM 5/26/2004 -0400, Bob G. wrote: > I'm sure you've already thought of Helen Vendler, who is at least as >sure as the others on your list to say nothing of interest about Stevens honestly, Bob (I'm trying to speak to you as a fellow human here): why always, always the sneer? No control over those demons of ambition, envy, what? Enquiring minds might like to know (and why is it I fully expect a sneer in return for this query?) (and why is it so many don't bother to post to the list, could it be in some way because of the anticipation of the Bob-sneer, or the Bob "poor me," which is even worse, or the Bob-helpfulness treating living poems like filing problems, immediately to be translated into their category, everybody and everything left "pinned and wriggling" to some wall). This bully-thing you do so compulsively, it give you comfort, a rictus, an ancient habit, what? Can we all pitch in and try to get you to the Mayo Clinic or wherever might do sneer-repair? A little more Bob and I'm out of here (see: you do have an effect, of a rather acidic sort, but still, making progress, congratulations). Enough. Take your best shot. disgustedly, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Wed May 26 23:49:02 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 23:49:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the Bully-Fool's Sneer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040526195546.00b4d220@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, May 26, 2004, at 11:11 PM, Barry Spacks wrote: > A little more Bob and I'm out of here (see: you do have an effect, > of a rather acidic sort, but still, making progress, congratulations). Barry, don't leave us; I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd miss you here. Just filter when it gets too much; most e-mail programs let you send messages you don't want straight to the trash. Not that I consider Bob's posts generally trash-worthy, but we can all use help with detachment sometimes. BTW, I think Vendler is very smart about Stevens, though I rarely agree with her taste in contemporary poetry. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu All sanity depends on this: that it should be a delight to feel heat strike the skin, a delight to stand upright, knowing the bones are moving easily under the flesh. Doris Lessing -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 868 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 27 06:50:59 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 06:50:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the Bully-Fool's Sneer References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040526195546.00b4d220@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <004701c443d8$81413df0$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> At 10:00 PM 5/26/2004 -0400, Bob G. wrote: I'm sure you've already thought of Helen Vendler, who is at least as sure as the others on your list to say nothing of interest about Stevens honestly, Bob (I'm trying to speak to you as a fellow human here): why always, always the sneer? No control over those demons of ambition, envy, what? Enquiring minds might like to know (and why is it I fully expect a sneer in return for this query?) Right, Barry, considering how unsneering you always are to me. The answer is (1) I have not been treat all that kindly here; (2) somehow, if I suggested that James consider having someone give a talk who might enlarge his audience's idea of poetry and Stevens, he would not act on it, and you would call the suggestion a sneer and a attempt to make it seem like experimental poetry by whatever name is the only game in town. (and why is it so many don't bother to post to the list, could it be in some way because of the anticipation of the Bob-sneer, or the Bob "poor me," which is even worse, or the Bob-helpfulness treating living poems like filing problems, immediately to be translated into their category, everybody and everything left "pinned and wriggling" to some wall). This bully-thing you do so compulsively, it give you comfort, a rictus, an ancient habit, what? Can we all pitch in and try to get you to the Mayo Clinic or wherever might do sneer-repair? My impression is that nobody much has ever posted to the list. Why don't you research the archives and report on it? For one thing, apparently few like to talk about poetry. I suspect that of those who take poetry seriously enough to want to talk about it, even argue about it, don't have time to re-certify the greatness of the poets usually brought up at New-Poetry, or bother with the dead opinions of the likes of Vendler and Gioia. A little more Bob and I'm out of here (see: you do have an effect, of a rather acidic sort, but still, making progress, congratulations). Enough. Take your best shot. You know, what I can't understand is the way stasguards like you hate opposition: you so rarely want to debate any issues. I sneer at the stasguards James is considering having speak at his stasguard affair for not being likely to say anything interesting, and you attack me for sneering, you don't tell me why Vendler would have made a good speaker, or why it's wrong of me to believe their are views of poetry superior to that of stasguards. And, non-reflective stasguard that you are, you claim I "always, always sneer." Do some research at the archive. You'll find that many times I post without sneering, and many parts of my posts with sneers in them have a lot besides sneers. I just posted, for instance, on the latest poem Professor Graham posted. I did not sneer at the poem, though I did sneer at the supposition that a given poem might be uncategorizable because unique. I would add that there are more than a few sneers in those responding to me, even when they are responding to posts of mine with no sneers in them. But, who knows, maybe I'll get tired of bullying you professors and go find another substitute teacher to pick on. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Thu May 27 09:31:41 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:31:41 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] From today's PoemHunter Message-ID: <001301c443ee$f26ccab0$a1607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> . A Strange Wild Song . He thought he saw an Elephant That practised on a fife: He looked again, and found it was A letter from his wife. "At length I realize," he said, "The bitterness of life!" He thought he saw a Buffalo Upon the chimney-piece: He looked again, and found it was His Sister's Husband's Niece. "Unless you leave this house," he said, "I'll send for the police!" he thought he saw a Rattlesnake That questioned him in Greek: He looked again, and found it was The Middle of Next Week. "The one thing I regret," he said, "Is that it cannot speak!" He thought he saw a Banker's Clerk Descending from the bus: He looked again, and found it was A Hippopotamus. "If this should stay to dine," he said, "There won't be much for us!" He thought he saw a Kangaroo That worked a Coffee-mill: He looked again, and found it was A Vegetable-Pill. "Were I to swallow this," he said, "I should be very ill!" He thought he saw a Coach-and-Four That stood beside his bed: He looked again, and found it was A Bear without a Head. "Poor thing," he said, "poor silly thing! It's waiting to be fed!" . Lewis Carroll Anny Ballardini I thought I saw a thousand mountains Barring heavily my ways I looked again and found they were x and y and w+j "Poor me," I said, "they're every and where how will I ever be again?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Thu May 27 11:30:42 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 08:30:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Word to Bob In-Reply-To: <200405271318.i4RDI3XE030424@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040527080243.00b4e1a0@incoming.verizon.net> At 09:18 AM 5/27/2004 -0400, Bob G. wrote: >But, who knows, maybe I'll get tired of bullying you professors Wonderful! (with thanks to Wendy, James, Anny, and the delete-button). x and y and w+ j, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 27 08:16:17 2004 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 08:16:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the Bully-Fool's Sneer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040526195546.00b4d220@incoming.verizon.net> References: <200405270200.i4R203XE026683@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <40B5A3D1.49.3FAC46@localhost> On 26 May 2004 at 20:11, Barry Spacks wrote: > honestly, Bob (I'm trying to speak to you as a fellow human here): why > always, always the sneer? No control over those demons of ambition, > envy, what?< A sneer for a sneer, eh, Barry? And then it's the typical coward's way out for you, isn't it: > A little more Bob and I'm out of here ...< You know, I agree with very little of what Bob Grumman says, but the notion that he ought to be silenced, or that he ought to be compelled to communicate in a way that Barry ("The God") Spacks approves, or Barry ("The God") Spacks will abandon New Poetry with hope and leave strikes me as exactly the sort of intellectual bullying of which he is trying to convict Bob Grumman. Bob Grumman is a very frustrating person to try to talk to, to be sure -- but I prefer his sneers to Barry's in this instance. Bob may hold principles I think are silly, but Barry is not holding to any principle at all in sneering at the sneerer and threatening to leave if the sneers don't stop. Hit 'em hard, Bob. Marcus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 27 15:29:14 2004 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:29:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Word to Bob References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040527080243.00b4e1a0@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <018401c44421$9d66dc30$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Ought-oh, I just got defended by Marcus! I gotta get outta here. Not really, but I will be gone for the next four days, so won't be posting. Have fun while I'm away, everyone--but don't take chances. What you post may still elicit a sneer from me when I get back. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crystallyn at gmail.com Thu May 27 15:57:10 2004 From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:57:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? In-Reply-To: <1c0.19a86d35.2de69e9f@aol.com> References: <1c0.19a86d35.2de69e9f@aol.com> Message-ID: Other thoughts... Maxine Kumin lives in NH. I believe that the Blacksmith House (http://www.ccae.org/events/blacksmith.html) in Cambridge may know how to get a hold of her. They may have other ideas as well. I saw Gail Mazur, founding director of the Blacksmith House Poetry series, read for PEN a few weeks ago...was a great reading, actually. PEN New England (www.pen-ne.org/) may also be a source of contacts and ideas as well. Also I know that Seamus Heaney spends a lot of time at Harvard...could try working through the English dept there. Might be a real longshot but you never know until you try. Another good idea is to call the Grolier Poetry Bookshop (which is always, sadly, on the verge of going out of business so if you want to support the oldest poetry store in the country, check out http://www.grolierpoetrybookshop.com/). The owner has connections to poets all over the place and may have a good option for you. Best of luck! Crystal ~~~~~~~~~~~ www.plumrubyreview.com From terzarima at earthlink.net Thu May 27 22:32:01 2004 From: terzarima at earthlink.net (terzarima at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 22:32:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? Message-ID: <410-2200455282321136@M2W099.mail2web.com> Heaney is only in Cambridge for a couple of weeks each fall and is usually heavy booked. I wouldn't count on pinning him down for anything, though you can try-- it seems that everyone wants him for something these days. If you contact PEN New England, the person to ask for would be Fred Marchant, a fine poet and a wonderful friend to writers, and head of Suffolk University's creative writing program. He might be able to help with ideas. Gail Mazur has been organizing Blacksmith for ages and knows virtually everyone, and more importantly would know who would likely be available and interested. You could also contact Diana Der Hovanessian of the New England Poetry Club. If you need contact info for any of the above, I could help you offlist! Good luck! Suzanne Original Message: ----------------- From: Crystal King crystallyn at gmail.com Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:57:10 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No Pinsky, Next Call? Other thoughts... Maxine Kumin lives in NH. I believe that the Blacksmith House (http://www.ccae.org/events/blacksmith.html) in Cambridge may know how to get a hold of her. They may have other ideas as well. I saw Gail Mazur, founding director of the Blacksmith House Poetry series, read for PEN a few weeks ago...was a great reading, actually. PEN New England (www.pen-ne.org/) may also be a source of contacts and ideas as well. Also I know that Seamus Heaney spends a lot of time at Harvard...could try working through the English dept there. Might be a real longshot but you never know until you try. Another good idea is to call the Grolier Poetry Bookshop (which is always, sadly, on the verge of going out of business so if you want to support the oldest poetry store in the country, check out http://www.grolierpoetrybookshop.com/). The owner has connections to poets all over the place and may have a good option for you. Best of luck! Crystal ~~~~~~~~~~~ www.plumrubyreview.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 28 08:09:31 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 14:09:31 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] call for papers Message-ID: <003901c444ac$a2591fb0$c51c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> > Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:53:45 +0200 > From: Dag Blanck THE 2005 NORDIC ASSOCIATION FOR AMERICAN STUDIES CONFERENCE May 25-28, 2005 V?xj? University, Sweden Call for Papers The 2005 NAAS conference will be held at V?xj? University May 25-28, 2005, in co-operation with Blekinge Institute of Technology in Karlskrona, the Swedish Emigrant Institute in V?xj? and the Swedish Association for American Studies. This first call for papers invites suggestions for workshops and individual papers in all areas that can be accommodated under the title of American Studies! The purpose of the broad theme is to be as inclusive as possible, and to make possible a survey of the broad spectrum of research and teaching projects which exist in such varied areas as (but not limited to) literature, English language, history, political science, film and media, pedagogy, ethnology, religion, economy, and geography, and multidisciplinary approaches such as queer studies, and gender studies. Proposals for the NAAS conference should be sent to the program committee by September 1, 2004 at the following address: Dr. Gunl?g Fur School of humanities V?xj? university 351 95 V?xj? e-mail: gunlog.fur at hum.vxu.se A website is under creation and will be available from the departmental home page: http://www.vxu.se/hum/NAAS2005. V?xj? is located in Sm?land in south central Sweden in the midst of the Swedish crystal kingdom, with convenient and frequent rail and air connections throughout Scandinavia. Warmly welcome with proposals to the 2005 NAAS conference! Gunl?g Fur President, Swedish Association for American Studies Chair, organizing committee ------------------------- Dag Blanck, Ph.D. Centre for Multiethnic Research Uppsala University Box 514 SE-751 20 Uppsala, Sweden Phone: +46 (0)18-471 71 99 Fax: +46 (0)18-471 23 63E-mail: Dag.Blanck at multietn.uu.se -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 28 09:21:04 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 09:21:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Helen Vendler: an Appreciation Message-ID: <19c.24cb4def.2de896c0@aol.com> http://www.neh.fed.us/news/humanities/2004-05/poemunfolded.html Helen Vendler: an Appreciation By Henri Cole THE Poem Unfolded Humanities Magazine - Washington,DC,USA . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Fri May 28 09:24:46 2004 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 09:24:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Calif. court considers whether violent poetry is criminal Message-ID: <000001c444b7$29b02490$6401a8c0@Dell> Calif. court considers whether violent poetry is criminal - DAVID KRAVETS, Associated Press Writer Friday, May 28, 2004 (05-28) 03:16 PDT SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The California Supreme Court is deciding whether to throw out the conviction of a 15-year-old boy who served 100 days in juvenile hall for writing a poem that included a threat to kill his fellow students. The case weighs free speech rights against the government's responsibility to provide safety in schools after campus shootings nationwide. Attorneys for the San Jose boy, identified as George T. in court records, described the poem Thursday as youthful artistic expression. One passage says: "For I can be the next kid to bring guns to kill students at school." Another reads: "For I am Dark, Destructive & Dangerous." "This is a classic case of a person expressing himself and trying to communicate his feelings through a poem," attorney Michael Kresser told the court, which gave no clear indication what it would do. A ruling is expected within 90 days. Chief Justice Ronald George and other justices wondered aloud whether George T.'s statements were protected speech because they were presented as verses in a poem. Deputy Attorney General Jeffrey Laurence replied: "The First Amendment doesn't protect against criminal conduct." The law in question, usually invoked in domestic violence cases, carries a maximum one-year term for criminal threats that convey an "immediate prospect of execution." The lower courts found that this threat met that definition, a decision the boy's attorney argued was unfounded. Civil rights and free-speech groups were closely following the dispute. "At the heart of this case is the First Amendment right of any young person to explore the whole range of his emotions and experiences, and write about disturbing subject matter without fear that he will be punished should his work be misinterpreted," said Ann Brick, an American Civil Liberties Union attorney. A student frightened by the poem notified a teacher, who called police. The boy, now 18, was arrested the next day and expelled from Santa Teresa High in San Jose. Justice Marvin Baxter was unsure whether the justices could second-guess the lower courts. "How can we conclude that the threat was unequivocal?" Justice Joyce Kennard suggested there was no immediacy to the threat and therefore no crime was committed. "The poem doesn't say 'I will be the next kid to bring guns to school.' It says, 'I can."' Justice Janice Rogers Brown said the First Amendment doesn't shield works of art with unlawful intentions. She asked whether a bank robber could be immune from charges for giving a bank teller this note: "Roses are red. Violets are blue. Give me the money or I'll shoot you." Speaking for the state, Laurence said the boy's poem cannot be analyzed in a vacuum. The boy passed the poem to a girl in his English class 11 days after a student killed two classmates and wounded 13 others at Santana High School in Santee on March 5, 2001. "You have to look at it all in context," Laurence said. Kresser said after the hour-long hearing that the boy's prosecution was an exaggerated response to Santee as well as the 1999 Columbine High student shooting that left 15 dead, and other student attacks. Outside of court, Laurence said the case might have been harder to prove if the poem was written in a poetry class, or the events at Santee had not just occurred. In one of California's first attempts to prosecute a schoolchild under the criminal threats statute in 2002, a Sacramento-based appeals court overturned a boy's conviction for drawing a picture of a police officer being shot in the head. That boy was previously arrested by the officer on drug-related charges, and he submitted the work to his art class. An appeals court ultimately reversed that conviction, saying there was no immediate threat of harm. Prosecutions of students under the statute are rare, but continue: on Wednesday, a 14-year-old boy was arrested at a middle school in the San Francisco suburb of Walnut Creek after posting a cartoon on the Internet with a caption that referred to a teacher, reading: "Maybe I should kill him and urinate on his remains." URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/05/28/nati onal0616EDT0498.DTL From halvard at earthlink.net Fri May 28 12:08:43 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 12:08:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Zito's Message-ID: If Greenwich Village and Bleecker Street have ever been part of your life, then this will bring tears to your eyes. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/28/nyregion/28zitos.html Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From barry.spacks at verizon.net Fri May 28 12:30:36 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 09:30:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Word to Marcus In-Reply-To: <200405281601.i4SG13XE008278@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528092420.00b8fe98@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 5/28/2004 -0400, Marcus wrote (excerpt): >Barry ("The God") Spacks Make the right enemies. Barry ("The God") Spacks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 28 15:25:11 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:25:11 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Last Word to Marcus References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528092420.00b8fe98@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <013501c444e9$7f32a230$2c737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> Dear Barry, do you want to be my enemy? I am so fed up with mine, they are: sooo predictable, repetitive, petty, insidious, ignorant, boring-boring, repetitive (again), and again What I wanted to ask is a serious question, does one choose his/her own enemies? If yes, then here is an important twist for me, care, Anny From: Barry Spacks Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 6:30 PM At 12:01 PM 5/28/2004 -0400, Marcus wrote (excerpt): Barry ("The God") Spacks Make the right enemies. Barry ("The God") Spacks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 28 15:27:21 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:27:21 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Zito's References: Message-ID: <014301c444e9$cca32850$2c737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> Yes, my parents both remember them, my father from over 60 years ago! Thanks Hal, Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 6:08 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Zito's > > If Greenwich Village and Bleecker Street have ever been > part of your life, then this will bring tears to your eyes. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/28/nyregion/28zitos.html > > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From cc at opus0.com Fri May 28 16:45:37 2004 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:45:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: re: re: sneer In-Reply-To: <200405281601.i4SG13XE008282@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: This discussion distresses me -- and renews my committment to non-violence in artistic discussions -- for peace, yes -- but equally for clarity of thought and expression. To assume a person at the other end of an email address. To listen for the need in expressed shame/blame; to respond to the former, not the latter. To distinguish discussants feelings and needs from each other and from my own. To heal the bump on my head from hitting the wall: three feet to the left, the door to Paradise. > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the Bully-Fool's Sneer > > > honestly, Bob (I'm trying to speak to you as a fellow human here): why etc. > > A sneer for a sneer, eh, Barry? And then it's the typical coward's etc. > Ought-oh, I just got defended by Marcus! I gotta get outta here. Not = etc. From reneea at verizon.net Fri May 28 22:34:16 2004 From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:34:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler contact info References: Message-ID: <000701c44525$70166980$da66fea9@Barnette> If anyone has contact information for August Kleinzahler, would you backchannel me? Thanks. Renee reneea at verizon.net From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Fri May 28 23:17:18 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:17:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: re: re: sneer References: Message-ID: Dear Crisman, I have always found your responses reasonable and peaceful. I, too, am avoiding the "flames," however academically disguised. It's about the poetry, right? --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crisman Cooley" To: Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: re: re: sneer | This discussion distresses me -- and renews my committment to non-violence | in artistic discussions -- for peace, yes -- but equally for clarity of | thought and expression. To assume a person at the other end of an email | address. To listen for the need in expressed shame/blame; to respond to the | former, not the latter. To distinguish discussants feelings and needs from | each other and from my own. To heal the bump on my head from hitting the | wall: three feet to the left, the door to Paradise. | | > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the Bully-Fool's Sneer | > > > honestly, Bob (I'm trying to speak to you as a fellow human here): why | etc. | > > A sneer for a sneer, eh, Barry? And then it's the typical coward's | etc. | > Ought-oh, I just got defended by Marcus! I gotta get outta here. Not = | etc. | | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri May 28 23:34:44 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 23:34:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Helen Vendler: an Appreciation References: <19c.24cb4def.2de896c0@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4452d$e34a9fe0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> That's a wonderful tribute. ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:21 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Helen Vendler: an Appreciation http://www.neh.fed.us/news/humanities/2004-05/poemunfolded.html Helen Vendler: an Appreciation By Henri Cole THE Poem Unfolded Humanities Magazine - Washington,DC,USA . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat May 29 11:00:31 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:00:31 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] calls for papers - Spain Message-ID: <01a701c4458d$afefcc50$a91c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 16:23:18 +0200 From: Isabel Dur?n Gim?nez-Rico VII S.A.A.S. Conference. Ja?n, 16-18 March 2005 Call for papers The 2005 SAAS (Spanish Association for American Studies) Conference will be held in Ja?n, Spain, 16-18 March 2005. Within the theme "Masculinties, Femininities And Hybridities In Us Culture" the Program Committee invites colleagues to submit proposals for individual papers, on diverse aspects of this topic, within the panels proposed below. Please, send your proposed abstract directly to the Chair of each panel (via E-mail) by 15 October, 2004 (full papers should be sent by 15 February, 2005), completing the form at the end of the GUIDELINES FOR PARTICIPANTS below, after the list of panels. Should your paper not fit into any of the panels, you can send it to Prof. Francisco Collado's e-mail address (fcollado at unizar.es), for there will also be a miscellaneous panel for a limited number of selected proposals. Members of International Associations of American Studies are invited to participate. Conference fee: 110? (70? for SAAS members). Please, check the SAAS Web page for further details: http://www.usc.es/ia303/saas/saas.html CONFERENCE ORGANIZERS: Dr. Nieves Pascual and Dr. Laura P. Alonso Gallo. Depto. de Filolog?a Inglesa. Facultad de Humanidades. Universidad de Ja?n. 23071 Ja?n (Spain). Tel: (0034) 953011830. Fax: (0034) 953012197. E-Mail: npascual at ujaen.es 1) Panel Chair: Laura P. Alonso Gallo Universidad de Huelva E-mail: laura at aduanavieja.com Title: Drawing Masculinities in Latino Caribbean Literature The literary representations of Caribbean masculinities within the grounds of social class, race, and sexuality bring forth an interesting forum of discussion. Experiences of displacement, immigration, exile, transculturation, family divisions, as well as linguistic and cultural uprooted-ness determine the representation of the Cuban, Dominican, and Puerto Rican man. The masculine ideology that Caribbean peoples bring to their new home in the U.S. appears either destabilized or reinforced in the new socio-cultural system. It is commonplace among writers of Hispanic Caribbean origin to question masculinity as an essentialist construction, offering an ample variety of situations and spaces where the masculine identity is defined. This panel will explore how traditional constructions of masculinity are represented, subverted, and politically contested in Latino Caribbean texts. Suggested topics: o Ethnic hyper-masculinity o Male archetypes and stereotypes o Masculinity and race o The figure of " el pinguero" o The figure of "el flaneur" o Masculinity and the abusive father/husband o Homoeroticism o Lies and deception o Masculinity and Cuban patriotism o Subversion of gender constructions o Masculinity and marriage o Masculine self-denial o Santer?a and Vodoo o Depression and suicide o Illness o Homophobia o Mothers fostering masculine ideologies o The masculine identity in domestic and social spheres o The ritual of dressing and grooming o Courting and seducing ---------------------- 2) Panel Chair: Manuel Brito Universidad de La Laguna E-mail: mbrito at ull.es) Title: North American Avant-Garde Poetry Anthologies: Challenging masculinities and femininities The central purpose of this panel is to discuss the methodological and conceptual issues developed by men and women poets in the edition of innovative and avant-garde North American poetry and poetics anthologies in the last three decades of the 20th century. These issues engaged men and women poets in a larger poetic discourse and progressive language practices. They were connected by a linguistically innovative work, offering an unusual perspective on otherness, objectification -relating words to objects, discursive practice of poetry, absence of final signification, textual resistance of the signifier, death of the author, and ideology. In formal terms, the lack of narrative structures, experimentation with the line and the sentence, as well as the frequent use of parataxis, created a strong sensation of emptiness, omissions and obscurities, and surrounding language. Sources for inspiration were found through other disciplines such as social theory, philosophy, linguistics, and art generated at both sides of the Atlantic. In this sense, anthologies published by women poets like Leslie Scalapino, Lisa Jarnot, Juliana Spahr, or Kristin Prevallet, and men poets like Edward Foster, Leonard Schwarts, Dennis Barone, or Christopher Beach invite reflections on their literary and intellectual correspondences. Were there limits to what one editor could include in her/his anthology? Were avant-garde poetry and poetics anthologies fundamentally different or were they simply limit cases of other poetic modes generated by men and women? The panel is designed to bring various scholars into conversation, and will attempt to reveal that anthologies were not only used as a cheap means of attracting a wider readership but also as a means to refine and enhance various joint poetic enterprises. The emphasis on the role of these anthologies will hopefully allow for a more fine-grained analysis of the transition from challenge to acceptance in both women's and men's innovative poetry. Suggested topics include but are not limited to: o Issues of the status of language. o Ways in which anthologizing mediates intention, notation and instruction. o The female and male "otherness" of the poetic work. o The relevance of particular choices in their reference to chronology, selected topics, and publication media (books, magazines, or electronic editions). --------------------------------- 3) Panel Chair: ?ngels Carab? University of Barcelona E-mail: carabi at fil.ub.es Title: "Masculinities and Gender Relations in Contemporary US Women's Literature" In her seminal work Masculinity Studies and Feminist Theory: New Directions (2002), Judith Kegan Gardiner refers to what she sees as the main features of a feminist approach to masculinity studies. First, she argues that men, like women, are gendered beings. Gardiner also contends that both masculinity and femininity are social constructions that vary culturally and historically, that is, they are culture-specific and context-bound. At the same time, she acknowledges that masculinity is not a monolithic, static entity, but varies according to the particularities of race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, class, age, etc. Finally, she rejects essentialist approaches to gender whereby masculinity is seen as fixed by nature, and psychological or sociological laws. According to Gardiner, one of the central tenets of a feminist approach to masculinity studies is that both masculinity and femininity are mutually dependent and interrelated, rather than separate entities. In light of her comments, then, this panel will use a feminist perspective to explore the representations of masculinities and gender relations in contemporary women's literature. Special emphasis will be placed on women's literature which provides insightful critiques of traditional patriarchal values. More specifically, the session will explore the different ways in which contemporary American women's fiction re-presents both men's relationships with women and with each other. Finally, the panel will also discuss how masculinities and gender relations are determined by the specificities of race and ethnicity, sexualities, class, age, etc., and how fiction by women re-writes these interrelations. ----------------------------- 4) Panel Chair: Isabel Dur?n Universidad Complutense de Madrid E-mail: idurangi at filol.ucm.es Title: "Gender Issues in American Life-writing" Given that Life-writing is now a privileged site for thinking about issues of writing at the intersection of feminist, postcolonial, ethnic, identity, disability, masculinity, queer, and postmodern critical theories, among others, this panel will explore the presentation and the negotiation of sexual and gender identities and its rhetorical strategies in all kinds of life-writing (autobiography, biography, diaries, journals, letters, etc, but also all forms of personal representation in art and photography.) in the American literary traditions of all times. Suggested specific topics include (but are not limited to): " The Poetics of Difference " "Autogynography" " Feminist Theory and Personal Narratives " Race, Ethnicity, Gender and Self-Portraiture " "Biomythography" " Private and Public Selves " Postmodern Geographies of Identity " Group Identity Politics " Feminist/Queer Aesthetics " Gay and Lesbian Lives " Disability, Aging, and Trauma Testimonios " "Autobiographics" " Writing the Male /Female/Hybrid Body " Mothers and Daughters; Fathers and Sons " The Strategy of the Other " De-Colonizing the Subject " The Unspeakability of the Subaltern " Spatiality and Gender Representation ------------------------------------ 5) Panel chair: Ram?n Espejo Universidad de Sevilla E-mail: respejo at us.es T?tulo: "Gender and/in Colonial America: Visions and Constructions of Gender in the Early Days of the Nation" This panel session would try to explore how gender was viewed, constructed or reflected in colonial North America. Among the questions which can specifically be addressed or explored are the following: 1. What patterns of masculinity and femininity did colonial writers (literary or otherwise) propose, attack, uphold, question or challenge? 2. How have modern times approached the colonial period of North America as far as gender was concerned (in films for instance)? 3. How have Gender Studies approached the period and what has their contribution been to unearthing the way gender images were articulated in the period? 4. What is the relationship between gender and the colonial mentality and how specific is the view/treatment of gender in a colonial society just on account of its being "colonial"? Contributions from many different fields can be accommodated in this panel session. I believe that the session would be greatly enriched by the coexistence of diverse approaches, from purely theoretical undertakings to more traditional explorations of social, literary, artistic or other aspects. --------------------------------------- 6) Panel Chair: Miriam Fern?ndez Santiago Universidad de Sevilla e-mail: mailto:alonso.gallo at dfing.uhu.es Title: Discursive and Physical Limits of Identity. Cyborgs and Gender Construction in US Culture. Before Michel Foucault theorized on the relationship existing between power and knowledge, it would have been at least awkward to think of our own epistemological and ontological identity as a power construct. Nowadays, recent research on biotechnology proves that Foucault's theories on the construction of identity have transcended the limits of mere consciousness to get comfortably installed in the physical body itself. The epitome of such installation is what we commonly know as cyborg; a hybrid of machine and organism that offers a postmodern alternative to modern essentialism and representationalism. The trope of the cyborg represents a physical and epistemological break signaling a "differential consciousness" that exists in a dynamic state of flux and development. It can stand for a kind of oppositional consciousness and practice that Chela Sandoval terms a "methodology of the oppressed" and which has characterized the political standpoint of various marginalized groups in the US. Donna Haraway has specially related cyborgs to the construction of female politics and identity on the basis of a multiple and contradictory perspective. The cyborg questions any identity built on the distinction between human being and machine, self and Other, or male and female, and theoretically should abolish any oppressive relation based on such dualistic distinctions. This panel will be dedicated to exploring the relevance of cyborgs in the construction of identity and gender relations in the US. Suggested topics: -Cyber-Eroticism -Cyborg Feminist Politics -Transgender Identity -Cyborgs and Postmodern Identity Construction -Textual Cyborgs -Cyborgs and Power -Cyborg Dystopias -Cyborg Democracy ------------------------------------- 7) Panel Chair: Mar?a Fr?as Universidade da Coru?a mariaf at udc.es Title: "Out of the Closet: Black Lesbians and Gays in African American Literature." Historically, literary criticism has paid little attention to black lesbians and gay men authors and/or characters in fiction. For the most part, and partially due to an overall homophobic attitude of the black community itself, they have been ignored, misrepresented, excluded, trivialized, and, at times, perceived as marginal, perverted, or sick. In the early Eighties, Ann A. Schokeley complained that "almost nothing [had been] written by or about the Black Lesbian in American Literature". However, in the late Seventies, Barbara Smith's groundbreaking work in claiming black feminism and/or black lesbianism for black women paved the way for serious studies on black queer theories. Most recently, canonized writers such as Alice Walker, Gloria Naylor, or Gayl Jones have dealt with black lesbian characters. In the same thread of thought, the biographies of blues women such as Billy Holiday or Bessie Smith openly show these women's sexual preferences. Black gay writers seem to have been more vocal than black lesbian women. Starting with writers from the Harlem Renaissance such as Langston Hughes, or McKay (among others), followed by James Baldwin, and contemporary writers such as E. Lynn Harris who continue that tradition, black gay writers seem to have focused on the four major themes that, according to Emmanuel Nelson, preoccupy the black gay writer: 1) the individual gay self, and the larger African-American community; 2) the devastating consequences of racism; 3) the pain and the possibilities of interracial love; and 4) the tragedy of AIDS. The aim of this panel is to examine, analyze, and discuss texts written by or about African American lesbians and gay men, in view of queer theory, as well as to examine critical studies on the co-existence of the two communities. Contributors are invited to reflect on and explore the following topics (among others): - Queer theory applied to texts written by or about black lesbians and gay writers. - Queer theory applied to auto/biographies of black lesbians and gay writers. - Critical response to queer texts, characters and/or writers. - Homophobic African-American community, black lesbians and gay men. - Definitions of masculinity/femininity within gay and lesbians couples - Coming out of the closet - Relationships with same sex whites- women or men. ----------------------------------------- 8) Panel Chair: Inmaculada Lara Bonilla Universidad Complutense de Madrid Syracuse University-Madrid E-mail: lbonilla at syr.edu TITLE: Lesbian Representation and Cultural Tropes This panel would address and contrast dominant and less dominant discourses dealing with the portrayal of lesbian women in contemporary US culture. It is envisioned as a multi-genre panel, including both critical and creative original contributions on the theme, as a display of, and reflection on, the cultural figure of the "lesbian woman" in the US. Suggested specific topics include (but are not limited to): o Postmodern forms of representation and conceptualization of the lesbian in literature, film, media, political discourse. o Mass culture assumptions on masculinity, femininity, homosexuality, lesbianism and motherhood applied and the figuration of lesbian women. o Texts and language-informed contexts through which the depiction of lesbian women has contributed to popular perceptions and the creation of dominant imaginaries on the lesbian. o Lesbian representation and consumer culture. o Lesbian women rhetoric(s) of self-representation. o Language, literature and imagery produced by lesbian women. o Texts dealing with stereotyping, lesbian women contesting dominant cultural tropes. o Possibilities of lesbian "narrative unity" (as described by Seyla Behabib) and for lesbian communities. o Possible specific lesbian attempts to rewrite US, and women's, cultural history. --------------------------------------- 9) Panel Chair: Silvia Mart?nez Falquina Universidad de Zaragoza E-mail: smfalqui at unizar.es Title: "Women, men, and two-spirit peoples: the construction and re/vision of Native American gendered ethnicity" The purpose of this panel is twofold. On the one hand, it seeks to explore the various ways in which gender and ethnicity interact in the construction of images of Native American women and men. On the other hand, it intends to examine the contemporary subversion and re/vision of those images by means of the berdache or two-spirit figure. Conventional definitions of gender and ethnicity have been constructed by means of borders-or rhetorical markers of difference-that radically differentiate and separate men from women, white from indian. These dichotomies originate in and reproduce certain structures of power that find a means of expression in prevailing conceptions of masculinity and femininity in combination with indian-ness. Thus, indian masculinity is ruled by the warrior image, whereas Native women are measured against the indian princess ideal, Tecumseh and Pocahontas serving as respective models for those images. After more than five centuries of cultural interaction in America, these fictions still help to construct reality by determining authenticity as defined by patriarchal and colonizing power. Together with this tendency, of utmost importance for the interpretation of Native American and US identity, in the past few decades we have been in the presence of a radical re/vision of gender by means of the recovery of the Native traditional berdache figure. The berdache refers to people of non-ambiguous biological sex who used to adopt occupations and demeanor akin to the gender most commonly associated with the opposite sex, and who acquired a different status from both men and women in their traditional societies. Not only has the berdache been recovered as a significant element of difference in relation to Western gender conventions and values by Native writers and scholars; it has also helped theorists from both Gender Studies and Gay and Lesbian studies prove that traditional definitions of gender as supported by the equivalence man=masculine/woman=feminine are simply inadequate. Contributors are invited to examine the different implications of these related tendencies in criticism, literature, film and popular culture. Issues to be dealt with include but are not limited to the following general headings: images of indian men, women and berdaches or two-spirit people; the ethics of Native American gender representation; the presence of the Native trickster's ambiguity, in-betweenness, and humor as a means of establishing or subverting gender and ethnic boundaries; the dialogue between gender representations of and by Native Americans. -------------------------------------------- 10) Panel Chair: ?ngel Mateos-Aparicio Mart?n-Albo Universidad de Castilla-La Mancha E-mail: Angel.Mateos at uclm.es Title: "Hybrid Gender in Science Fiction" In its postmodern condition, science fiction has become increasingly aware of many of the most persistent obsessions of the current postmodernist cultural context. Its characteristic presentation of "other worlds" has been adapted to explore reality beyond previously existent boundaries, set classifications, clear-cut distinctions and, in general, all kinds of cultural preconceptions. In this context, women writing science fiction have used this imaginative impulse to create fictional hybrid-gender characters, thus bringing up the question of gender from this postmodernist, non-settled perspective. Moreover, the activity of women writers in a genre traditionally considered masculine can be seen as highly subversive both inside and outside the frontiers of the genre. In this sense, some contributions have been particularly interesting, such as Ursula LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness, Octavia Butler's Dawn and Joanna Russ's The Female Man. The main objectives of this panel could thus be: 1. To analyze in full the hybrid gender characters in relation to current theoretical descriptions/constructions of gender, in these writers or in other related science-fictional narratives. 2. To explore the culturally subversive implications of presenting characters whose gender is not clearly defined. 3. To illustrate how the presence of hybrid gender characters is bringing up the question of the construction of gender is Western culture. 4. To look into other fictional characters' and readers' reactions to the undefined gender roles and construction. 5. To explore the erotic and sexual implications of the confrontation with the hybrid gender characters. ------------------------------------------ 11) Panel Chair: B?rbara Ozieblo Universidad de M?laga E-Mail: ozieblo at uma.es Title: Strategies of Identity in US Theater Issues of both gender and race have been vital in creating and re-creating the concept of the American, that "new man," who is "free as he ought to be." In the twenty-first century, we can no longer speak as easily of gender, freedom and race as could Cr?vecoeur. Thus, this panel will examine the ways in which theatrical representation has contributed to the creation, deconstruction and re-creation of a recognizable [?] American identity in the twentieth century, focusing on dramatists who have struggled to subvert established dichotomies and who have courageously brought new topics and theatrical devices onto the stage. Suggested topics: " Does twentieth-century American theater present recognizable types? How are these used? " Subversion of the masculine/feminine stereotype on the Off and Off-Off-Broadway stage as compared to on Broadway. " The adoption of theatrical devices used to highlight such subversion (e.g. Vogel's use of the "Choir" in How I Learned to Drive . . . ) by playwright and/or director. " Performance and perversion of accepted codes of representation. " Revisions and re-assessments of traditional identities (e.g. Hester in Suzan-Lori Parks' Fucking A or Vivian in Margaret Edson's Wit . . .). " Reliance on others for one's sense of masculinity/femininity (e.g. Manuel's heartfelt confession: "She made me feel like I was nothing," in Cherrie Moraga's Shadow of a Man or Arthur Miller's Willie Loman . . . ). ------------------------------------------ 12) Chair: Viorica Patea Universidad de Salamanca E-mail: vioricap at usal.es Title: The I and the Other in the North American Short Story This panel will reexamine psychological and literary issues of identity in the North American Short Story. Papers are invited on all aspects that explore the encounter between the I and the other, the archetypal images of the "double", the "shade", the confrontation of otherness, the dialogical relations of selfhood, fe(male) constructions of identity, and the projections of fragmented identities and fragmented selves. Other possible topics also include, but are not limited to: o The poetics of the real and the fantastic. o Reality and hyper-reality, the hybridity of literary forms. o The transgression of literary conventions of the short story. ------------------------------------------ 13) Panel chair: Michael Rockland Rutgers University E-mail: rockland at rci.rutgers.edu Title: Gendering America This panel will look at ways in which the USA is seen, shaped, and formed through gender. My own presentation will be: "False Gendering of Domestic Violence in the United States." Domestic violence is exclusively seen in the US as an issue in which men are perpetrators, women victims, when actual statistics indicate a 60%-40% ratio of men to women as perpetrators/victims and vice versa. Both sexes are diminished by this false conventional wisdom. I plan to present clips from a recent Oprah television show on the topic as part of my presentation. Members of the panel will want to discuss other examples of gendering in North American life. For example: aesthetics. Henry James spoke in The American Scene of how American men were all "downtown" (business), American women all "uptown" (culture), and George Santayana wrote that the arts in the United States struggle between vernacular (male and American) and genteel (female and European) considerations. Other examples of gendering are: how domestic tasks are gendered; how public life is gendered; how fashion and beauty and the diet industry are gendered and, yet, with the advent of the new "Metro-sexual man," are becoming un-gendered; how American nationalism and public monuments are gendered. But these are just my own ideas. Any presentation which looks at how gendering affects culture in the United States, or even some comparison of gendering in the United States and in Europe, especially in Spain, would be welcome and would, I think, fit nicely into the general theme of the conference. ------------------------------------------- 14) Panel Chair: Santiago Rodr?guez Guerrero-Strachan University of Valladolid guerrero at fyl.uva.es Title: Male, Female and Hybrid Bodies The body has been seen as an extremely cultural artifact and as a site for cultural challenge as well. It has been approached variously since the Renaissance. Either viewed as a machine by scientists or as a model for social organization, the body has been understood as existing simultaneously in the natural and the cultural worlds. It has been theorized as a body-machine, or as artificial or fantastic creatures such as werewolves, golems, and vampires among others. From the scholar's point of view this raises two questions: How has the body been configured historically? What does it mean for bodies to be treated in this fashion? The panel invites proposals that study how the human body has been represented in Literature, Arts, Cinema, and Culture. Possible topics, though not restricted to, are: male and female identity as inscribed in bodies, representations of new creatures that challenge traditional concepts of masculinity and femininity, the gendered grotesque, representations of male and/or female non-human creatures, "The New Flesh" in Cinema and/or Literature, representations of freaks and other marginal creatures. -------------------------------------------------- 15) Panel Chairs: Antonia Sagredo Santos E-mail: asas0021 at alerce.pntic.mec.es M? Luz Arroyo V?zquez E-mail: arroyolu at hotmail.com Title: "Outstanding Protagonists in the History of the United States of America". This panel aims at tackling some of the main prominent social and political leaders who have contributed to enhance the history of the United States of America. We want to focus our attention on the key role they have played on the founding and development of the US nation and even, we would like to underline the projection that most of them have had not only in the USA but also all over the world. Searching for an increasingly interdisciplinary academic world should be a challenging task for anyone who tries to offer a deeper and more complete view of US culture. We would like to be joined in this panel by contributors who deal with relevant aspects of those women and men who have been building this modern nation, the United States of America. Therefore, this panel will accept proposals which analyze any political, religious, labor or social protagonism in the history of the American nation. ------------------------------------------------ 16) Panel Chair: Bego?a Simal Gonz?lez Universidad de La Coru?a E-mail: mailto:ibarrola at fil.deusto.es Title: "Ethnic and Gender Hybridities in Contemporary US Literatures" The threshold or borderland in between the second and third millennia has been heralded by the consolidation of postmodernism and postcolonialism, while we have also witnessed the emergence of two other controversial post- phenomena: post-feminism and post-nationalism/post-ethnic theory. It is these last two -isms that the proposed panel intends to address. The aim of the panel is four-fold: 1st- to explore the negotiations within gender studies and ethnic studies, with particular attention to gender and ethnic crossings that inhere in a "hybrid" society 2nd- to look at the ways gender and ethnicity categories intersect, overlap, intertwine and interface each other 3rd- to provide illustrations of these "gender and ethnic crossings", on the one hand, and of the intersection of gender and ethnicity, on the other, in Asian American literary production 4th- last, but not least, to negotiate and delve into the import of these multiple (gender/ethnic) crossings as regards the concept of hybridity. --------------------------------------------- 17) Panel Chair: Isabel Soto Departamento de Filolog?as Extranjeras UNED E-mail: isoto at flog.uned.es Title: "The Dialectics of Diasporic Identification": Hybridity, Gender and Affiliation Paul Gilroy's phrase (Third Text 13 [winter 1991]) reminds us of the multiple ways in which the term 'diaspora' currently signifies. From its historical etymology derived from the Greek diasperien, from dia-, meaning 'across', and sperien, meaning 'to sow or scatter seeds', the term has over the centuries performed its own meaning, attaching itself now to Jews forced to live beyond the borders of Palestine, now to Africans forcibly displaced to the New World, and in today's global world scenario, speaking simultaneously to all displaced, migrant peoples of our planet, from Mexicans to Sri Lankans, Pakistanis to Romanians, Hondurans to North Africans. 'Diaspora', further, involves a process-or 'dialectics'-of interpellation: the individual is hailed, or summoned through location. This is geography in the service of subject formation. The contingency and provisionality of the arrangement is intensified by multiple variables such as history, unstable or decentered affiliations, ideology and gender. Hybridity, especially in its Bhabhian conception of "shifting forces and fixities" and its interrogation "of the images and presences of authority" (The Location of Culture), acquires heightened valence in our present context. This panel seeks contributions that engage with current formulations of the term 'diaspora' from within a theoretical context of ethnic, cultural and transatlantic studies. We welcome also enquiries into how the term productively intersects with constructions of sexuality and gender in US culture. -------------------------------------------- 18) Panel Chair: Miriam L?pez Rodr?guez Universidad de M?laga E-mail: miriamlopez1967 at terra.es Title: Alternative Femininities in Nineteenth-Century American Theatre Nineteenth-century American theatre is usually dismissed by critics and scholars as second rate to that produced during the following century. However, it offers-from the point of view of Gender Studies-an interesting environment for the study of feminine stereotypes, from the upper class theater-goer to the reviled prostitute of the infamous third tier. Much has been written about these passive connections of woman with theatre, but women's relationship with the theater was not limited to spectatorship; many women-challenging societal prejudices-made a career in show business at a time in which the mere notion of women earning their living outside their home was shocking enough. Exposing themselves to the public, these women challenged the notions of piety, purity, submissiveness and domesticity that defined so-called True Womanhood, thus jeopardizing their chances of becoming socially acceptable. Whether working as managers, critics, dramatists or actresses, many women forged a career for themselves while, at the same time, they set the foundations for the theatre that women such as Susan Glaspell, Sophie Treadwell, and Rachel Crothers would work in during the following century. Although all the women working in nineteenth-century theatre shared some common features-they challenged conventions, they needed to earn a living-they should not be labeled as a homogeneous group. For example, novelist and amateur actress Louisa May Alcott made a point of changing social attitudes toward actresses and women working in show business in general, while dramatist Louisa Medina focused on society's prejudices against women and, although she suffered social rejection she never wrote about it. Actress-manager Nellie Boyd toured the American Southwest in an attempt to take theatre to the most remote areas of the country; meanwhile, actress Anna Cora Mowatt spent all her career acting in big cities and she gained a reputation as a dramatist writing about the urban upper middle class. Proposed topics: " Women's involvement in nineteenth-century theater: as actresses, dramatists, producers, directors, theater-managers. " Stereotypes of femininity: representation, presentation and subversion of the female image and identity. " Social prejudice against women in the theater. ---------------------------------------- 19) Miscellaneous Panel Send proposals for this panel to: Francisco Collado (fcollado at posta.unizar.es) ------------------- VII SAAS CONFERENCE: JA?N 16-18 March 2005 GUIDELINES FOR PARTICIPANTS - Abstracts of Proposals are to be e-mailed directly to the director of the selected panel using the form at the end of this document. The deadline for submitting abstracts is October 15, 2004. Panel directors are expected to accept/reject proposals and have panels set up by november 15. - Panels cannot have more than THREE contributions each. - The deadline for the submission of the final and complete version of papers accepted by panel directors is February 10, 2005. -All complete papers have to be submitted in electronic format to the panel director who accepted them. Please, include a brief CV of approx. 300 words, indicating your present affiliation and main publications. - Before the Conference, all the papers will be circulated among the panel participants. - The final version should never exceed 8 double-spaced pages (in Times 12). This is approx. 2000 words. Panelists will be talking for about 20' and there will be a final round of questions once panelists have presented their contributions. Panel directors are also expected to offer a brief summary and comments on the contributions to their own panels. - Panel sessions should not last more that one hour and thirty minutes. - All participants MUST have registered for the Conference ahead of time (see web page). - Panel directors are also expected to dissuade panelists from simply reading their papers. - If panelists need any equipment for their presentations, they should let their panel director know as soon as possible. Please, write here the title of your proposal: Author's Name: Academic Affiliation: E-mail: Panel: Abstract (400-600 words): Special requirements if any: Please, send your abstract in this form and in electronic format to the Panel Director of your selected panel. Deadline for abstract proposals is October 15 2004. Dr. Isabel Dur?n Depto. Filolog?a Inglesa II Facultad de Filolog?a Universidad Complutense 28040 Madrid (SPAIN) Tel. 3491 3945390 Fax. 3491 3945478 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat May 29 11:14:42 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:14:42 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stowe - How sweet the sound Message-ID: <01fe01c4458f$ab05f230$a91c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> >From: David W.Stowe >Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:04:20 -0400 How Sweet the Sound Music in the Spiritual Lives of Americans David W. Stowe Musical expression is at the heart of the American spiritual experience. And nowhere can you gauge the depth of spiritual belief and practice more than through the music that fills America's houses of worship. Most amazing is how sacred music has been shaped by the exchanges of diverse peoples over time. How Sweet the Sound traces the evolution of sacred music from colonial times to the present, from the Puritans to Sun Ra, and shows how these cultural encounters have produced a rich harvest of song and faith. Pursuing the intimate relationship between music and spirituality in America, Stowe focuses on the central creative moments in the unfolding life of sacred song. He fills his pages with the religious music of Indians, Shakers, Mormons, Moravians, African-Americans, Jews, Buddhists, and others. Juxtaposing music cultures across region, ethnicity, and time, he suggests the range and cross-fertilization of religious beliefs and musical practices that have formed the spiritual customs of the United States, producing a multireligious, multicultural brew. Stowe traces the evolution of sacred music from hymns to hip-hop, finding Christian psalms deeply accented by the traditions of Judaism, and Native American and Buddhist customs influenced by Protestant Christianity. He shows how the creativity and malleability of sacred music can explain the proliferation of various forms of faith and the high rates of participation they've sustained. Its evolution truly parallels the evolution of American pluralism. See -------------------------------- Andr? KAENEL D?partement d'anglais Universit? Nancy 2 BP 3397 23, Bd Albert 1er 54015 Nancy C?dex FRANCE Tel: 03 83 96 70 45 Fax: 03 83 96 70 19 e-mail: Andre.Kaenel at univ-nancy2.fr http://www.univ-nancy2.fr/ANGLAIS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat May 29 11:46:51 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 08:46:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] There is Such a Thing as Creative Conflict In-Reply-To: <200405291447.i4TEl3XE014790@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040529083335.00b5a710@incoming.verizon.net> At 10:47 AM 5/29/2004 -0400,Anny Ballardini wrote: >Dear Barry, > >do you want to be my enemy? Ah, Anny, charmed! Petruchio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat May 29 14:26:41 2004 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 11:26:41 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Village Days In-Reply-To: <200405281601.i4SG13XE008278@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040529111909.00b509b8@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 5/28/2004 -0400, Hal wrote: >If Greenwich Village and Bleecker Street have ever been >part of your life, then this will bring tears to your eyes. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/28/nyregion/28zitos.html thanks for the tears and the memories, Hal. I lived for a summer above a coffee-seller's on Bleeker, directly across from the San Remo Cafe (when you could stillsee police horses gazing out of second floor stables at McDougal). This was the summer of 1952; by September I still couldn't figure out what to do with the remnants of my post-schooling life, so of course I joined the army. good old Bleeker Street Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Sat May 29 15:56:37 2004 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 12:56:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: re: re: sneer In-Reply-To: <200405291447.i4TEl3XE014794@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Yes, CE, I agree. I appreciate being able to discuss ideas with ou. --speaking of which! I have a very delayed response on your last post on the Graham, etc thread... Will send it soon-- I've been buried...please forgive. Also I'd like to backchannel you about San Miguel de Allende when I have a bit more time. > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] > Dear Crisman, > > I have always found your responses reasonable and peaceful. > > I, too, am avoiding the "flames," however academically disguised. > > It's about the poetry, right? > > --CE From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 29 23:39:04 2004 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 23:39:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: three for Memorial Day Message-ID: Memorial If we do not lift quickly the dead bodies from the beaches the tide begins to put them down like a disappointment carried beneath the clothing, or hidden in the intricate folded greyness of the brain. Now we can know again, even more plainly, how quickly the world changes. The land and life too are interrupted by the indomitable fantasy of extreme violence and the awful terror. The body, eager with its wants and its rich few years is dead now on the beaches. The war came as a water rising, leaving us homeless. The easy company of the dispossessed was a grave joy. On the crest of waters we invaded the distance. Recession will find our shells far: high up in mountains. It will be explained how they came there. It will not be understood. --William Bronk fr. Life Supports: New and Collected Poems [San Francisco: North Point Press, 1982] i sing of Olaf glad and big whose warmest heart recoiled at war: a conscientious object-or his wellbelov?d colonel(trig westpointer most succinctly bred) took erring Olaf soon in hand; but--though an host of overjoyed noncoms(first knocking on the head him)do through icy waters roll that helplessness which others stroke with brushes recently employed anent this muddy toiletbowl, while kindred intellects evoke allegiance per blunt instruments-- Olaf(being to all intents a corpse and wanting any rag upon what God unto him gave) responds,without getting annoyed "I will not kiss your f.ing flag" straightway the silver bird looked grave (departing hurriedly to shave) but--through all kinds of officers (a yearning nation's blueeyed pride) their passive prey did kick and curse until for wear their clarion voices and boots were much the worse, and egged the firstclassprivates on his rectum wickedly to tease by means of skilfully applied bayonets roasted hot with heat-- Olaf(upon what were once knees) does almost ceaselessly repeat "there is some s. I will not eat" our president,being of which assertions duly notified threw the yellowsonofabitch into a dungeon,where he died Christ(of His mercy infinite) i pray to see;and Olaf,too preponderatingly because unless statistics lie he was more brave than me:more blond than you. --E. E. Cummings fr. W (ViVa) (1931) in Poems: 1923-1954 [New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company, 1954] Poem I lived in the first century of world wars. Most mornings I would be more or less insane, The newspapers would arrive with their careless stories, The news would pour out of various devices Interrupted by attempts to sell products to the unseen. I would call my friends on other devices; They would be more or less mad for similar reasons. Slowly I would get to pen and paper, Make my poems for others unseen and unborn. In the day I would be reminded of those men and women Brave, setting up signals across vast distances, Considering a nameless way of living, of almost unimagined values. As the lights darkened, as the light of night brightened, We would try to imagine them, try to find each other. To construct peace, to make love, to reconcile Waking with sleeping, ourselves with each other, Ourselves with ourselves. We would try by any means To reach the limits of ourselves, to reach beyond ourselves, To let go the means, to wake. I lived in the first century of these wars. --Muriel Rukeyser fr. The Speed of Darkness [New York: Vintage Books, 1971] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3948 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun May 30 03:43:30 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 09:43:30 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] e-journal Lisa Message-ID: <006601c44619$cd65bce0$c9607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> > From: "Eric Gonzalez" > Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 00:22:33 +0200 LISA e-journal/La revue LISA Vol. II - n?2, 2004 THE UNITED STATES THROUGH THE PRISM OF BRITISH AND AMERICAN POPULAR MUSIC http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/anglais/lisa/english/publications.php?id=0031&num=003 Eric Gonzalez (Ed.), Universit? de Rennes 2 - Haute Bretagne Introduction Eric Gonzalez (1-9) "East-West, Perpetual Motion": British-American Popular Music Exchange Paulo Renato Ferreira Pinto de Oliveira (10-19) The Record Industry in the 21st Century : The Irrelevance of the Nation State Tamsin Briggs (20-40) Rage in a Time of Millenial Raving: Rage Against the Machine's Critical Disruption of Y2K Excitement Phillip Serrato (41-61) "Just an American Boy". The Political Songwriting of Steve Earle Richard Jobes (62-72 ) The Past didn't go Anywhere : Making Music / Making History in Contemporary American Folk Sophie Levy (73-89) "Most likely you go your way and I'll go mine" : A Rock Star's Guide to Abandoning your Audience Adrian Smith (90-106) Music Making History : Langston Hughes's Ask Your Mama (1961) Jennifer Kilgore (107-124) Eric Gonzalez Universit? de Rennes 2-Haute Bretagne, France LISA (ISSN 1762-6153, http://www.unicaen.fr/mrsh/anglais/lisa/ ) is a peer-reviewed e-journal for Literature, history of Ideas, Images and Society in the English-speaking world. It is accommodated on the web-site of the Maison de la Recherche en Sciences Humaines (Research Centre for Humanities and Social Sciences) at the University of Caen, France. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun May 30 13:42:10 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 12:42:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: three for Memorial Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/29/04 10:39 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > > Memorial > > If we do not lift quickly the dead bodies from the beaches > the tide begins to put them down like a disappointment > carried beneath the clothing, or hidden > in the intricate folded greyness of the brain. > > Now we can know again, even more plainly, > how quickly the world changes. > The land and life too are interrupted > by the indomitable fantasy of extreme violence > and the awful terror. > The body, eager with its wants and its rich few years > is dead now on the beaches. > > The war came as a water rising, leaving us homeless. > The easy company of the dispossessed was a grave joy. > > On the crest of waters we invaded the distance. > Recession will find our shells far: high up in mountains. > It will be explained how they came there. > It will not be understood. > > --William Bronk > > fr. Life Supports: New and Collected Poems > [San Francisco: North Point Press, 1982] > I really like the Bronk poem. "Grave joy" might describe a lot of his work, come to think of it. Bronk goes in my imaginary anthology of Neglected Oddball Poets of the 20th Century. The Cummings I find nigh unreadable, I'm afraid, though I liked the poem when I was 17. Whether he's being a sentimental lovebird or a political satirist, how amazingly ham-fisted he can be. . . . But thanks for the memories, anyway! ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun May 30 14:11:50 2004 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:11:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: three for Memorial Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sunday, May 30, 2004, at 01:42 PM, David Graham wrote: > I really like the Bronk poem. "Grave joy" might describe a lot of his > work, > come to think of it. Bronk goes in my imaginary anthology of Neglected > Oddball Poets of the 20th Century. David, if you can use your anthologist's skills to make Bronk better known and more widely read, you have a permanent place on my list of heroes. I won't ask about "oddball," since it could only get me into trouble. But who else goes in that anthology? And thanks for the Rukeyser, too, Hal. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ------------------------------------------------ Winning gives birth to hostility. Losing, one lies down in pain. The calmed lie down with ease, having set winning & losing aside. -Dhammapada, 15 From antrobin at clipper.net Sun May 30 14:38:06 2004 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 11:38:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002c01c44675$45f9e720$623f1c40@Emily> Memorial Day 2002 Absent not kissed how much you differ from my earlier work. These anniversaries glut: push: disappear where clouds ain't floating. They closed the coffee shop with us still in it. Seven types of anxiety, clutter, fumble- Later poems and much later poems and four kinds of "not" Does Iowa look like Oregon or away? You can't rework that thing no more: it's done. Months later: the poems of Donne, no more, you. Smiling we swallowed the packets sugar? Not kissed, unsolved, not absolved. Our sins make fools of our circle, our love. October leavetaking and a sonnet about Milton and bacon, the breakfast food not the enlightenment man. From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 30 15:04:18 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:04:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day References: <002c01c44675$45f9e720$623f1c40@Emily> Message-ID: Memorial Triptych-- I wrote these in 1999 in the order I saw the three monuments. At the Lincoln Memorial _"If I could save the Union by freeing the slaves, I would; If I could save the Union by not freeing the slaves, I would."_ Up three tiers of steps-- your mammoth shoe at eye level. Gargantuan hands rest easy now. Folds of robes flow from your throne in static waterfall, a Greek convention in American marble. Your face looks younger than the face from books-- the brochure explains the sculptor used your death mask. Your eyes, so often scored by laughter now stare grimly across the reflecting pool at that less human monument of Washington, your father: He the machine, you the Christ embalmed in stone under cool portico, resurrected in cold recall. Ah, Honest Abe, tell us a joke to humanize your face! The one about Grant and the whiskey would do. You would likely laugh at such marmoreal apotheosis; besides, it seems unfair when, after black humor, justice was your strong suit. At the Korean War Memorial Bronze ponchos in the cold rain beneath the hot sun of a humid day: _Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free; I'll send them ten thousand miles across the western sea._ Look: they are march-weary, not one Hollywood face but the grim jowls of patience haunt this place. Sergeant walks point through sucking mud, dreams of hot showers through scent of blood, the radio man's antenna fragile as the idea of civilization. It is their faces that afflict me, their brave, unmapped faces: Italian-, African-, German-American homogenized by suffering into a grudging patina, drained of specificity, forever trudging against the Yellow Menace only to obtain a parallel. _O, garlic and sapphires in the mud clot the bedded axle tree: Yosarian, send in the clowns._ At the Vietnam War Memorial Black granite stretches its harsh, tapering wings up to pedestrian-level grass but sucks me down, here, at the intersection of names. I forgive, I must, though I wish something could heal this gash in the earth. Behold, all theorists, the price of theory: extreme unction by napalm and blood, buried whole or in pieces. The VA grants prostheses but not minds free of horror. _In jungles tumescent, through villages of straw, by the Mekong where catfish sleep in mud-heaven, we tramped, disarming mines and flushing tunnels, shot women and children for collaboration, smoked Thai-stick until stuporous and still the sound of Charlie played on every frond._ Beat against this polished rock, America, this vast projective surface for your sins, wear your heart out. It's not how many died but that they died in vain, achieving nothing except our grief for them. It's said you cannot write a good poem until recollected in tranquility. Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, dividing author from reader and reader from page. Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, let sons mistake honor for stupidity, let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, Let teachers suicide in public in partial recompense, let preachers castrate themselves for passive assent, let everything in America that breathes hang its head in irrefragable shame. Here is the legacy of your assumptions, here the necropolis of your dark-suited wisdom: _A city set in a pit cannot be hid_ (published in the Adirondack Review) --CE From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun May 30 15:31:02 2004 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 21:31:02 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day References: <002c01c44675$45f9e720$623f1c40@Emily> Message-ID: <006e01c4467c$a4df6790$7e607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> Very good (quoting from CE Chaffin: At the Vietnam War Memorial): It's said you cannot write a good poem until recollected in tranquility. Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, dividing author from reader and reader from page. Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, let sons mistake honor for stupidity, let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, _________________ Take care, Anny Ballardini From: "C. E. Chaffin" Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:04 PM > Memorial Triptych-- I wrote these in 1999 in the order I saw the three > monuments. > > > > > > At the Lincoln Memorial > > > > _"If I could save the Union by freeing the slaves, I would; > If I could save the Union by not freeing the slaves, I would."_ > > > > Up three tiers of steps-- > your mammoth shoe at eye level. > Gargantuan hands rest easy now. > > Folds of robes flow from your throne > > in static waterfall, a Greek convention > > in American marble. > > > > Your face looks younger > > than the face from books-- > > the brochure explains > > the sculptor used your death mask. > > > > Your eyes, so often scored by laughter > > now stare grimly across the reflecting pool > at that less human monument > > of Washington, your father: > > He the machine, you the Christ > > embalmed in stone under cool portico, > > resurrected in cold recall. > > > > Ah, Honest Abe, tell us a joke > > to humanize your face! > > The one about Grant > > and the whiskey would do. > You would likely laugh > > at such marmoreal apotheosis; > > besides, it seems unfair > > when, after black humor, > > justice was your strong suit. > > > > > > > > > > > > At the Korean War Memorial > > > > Bronze ponchos in the cold rain > beneath the hot sun of a humid day: > > _Give me your tired, your poor, > your huddled masses yearning to be free; > I'll send them ten thousand miles > > across the western sea._ > > > > Look: they are march-weary, > not one Hollywood face > > but the grim jowls of patience > > haunt this place. > > Sergeant walks point > > through sucking mud, > > dreams of hot showers > > through scent of blood, > > the radio man's antenna fragile > as the idea of civilization. > > > > It is their faces that afflict me, > > their brave, unmapped faces: > > Italian-, African-, German-American > > homogenized by suffering > > into a grudging patina, > > drained of specificity, > > forever trudging > > against the Yellow Menace > > only to obtain a parallel. > > > > _O, garlic and sapphires in the mud > clot the bedded axle tree: > > Yosarian, send in the clowns._ > > > > > > At the Vietnam War Memorial > > > > Black granite stretches its harsh, tapering wings > up to pedestrian-level grass but sucks me > > down, here, at the intersection of names. > I forgive, I must, though I wish something > could heal this gash in the earth. > > > > Behold, all theorists, the price of theory: > extreme unction by napalm and blood, > buried whole or in pieces. > > The VA grants prostheses > but not minds free of horror. > > > > _In jungles tumescent, through villages > of straw, by the Mekong where catfish > sleep in mud-heaven, we tramped, > disarming mines and flushing tunnels, > > shot women and children for collaboration, > > smoked Thai-stick until stuporous > > and still the sound of Charlie > > played on every frond._ > > > > Beat against this polished rock, America, > this vast projective surface for your sins, > > wear your heart out. It's not how many died > > but that they died in vain, achieving > > nothing except our grief for them. > > > It's said you cannot write a good poem > > until recollected in tranquility. > > Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, > dividing author from reader and reader from page. > > Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: > > let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, > let sons mistake honor for stupidity, > let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, > let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, > let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, > > > > Let teachers suicide in public in partial recompense, > > let preachers castrate themselves for passive assent, > let everything in America that breathes > hang its head in irrefragable shame. > Here is the legacy of your assumptions, > here the necropolis of your dark-suited wisdom: > _A city set in a pit cannot be hid_ > > > > (published in the Adirondack Review) > > > > --CE > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 30 15:45:34 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:45:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day (formatted) References: <002c01c44675$45f9e720$623f1c40@Emily> Message-ID: Sorry, here they are again, I screwed up the formatting. Eeek! Memorial Triptych-- I wrote these in 1999 in the order I saw the three monuments. _italics_ At the Lincoln Memorial _"If I could save the Union by freeing the slaves, I would; If I could save the Union by not freeing the slaves, I would."_ Up three tiers of steps-- your mammoth shoe at eye level. Gargantuan hands rest easy now. Folds of robes flow from your throne in static waterfall, a Greek convention in American marble. Your face looks younger than the face from books-- the brochure explains the sculptor used your death mask. Your eyes, so often scored by laughter now stare grimly across the reflecting pool at that less human monument of Washington, your father: He the machine, you the Christ embalmed in stone under cool portico, resurrected in cold recall. Ah, Honest Abe, tell us a joke to humanize your face! The one about Grant and the whiskey would do. You would likely laugh at such marmoreal apotheosis; besides, it seems unfair when, after black humor, justice was your strong suit. At the Korean War Memorial Bronze ponchos in the cold rain beneath the hot sun of a humid day: _Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free; I'll send them ten thousand miles across the western sea._ Look: they are march-weary, not one Hollywood face but the grim jowls of patience haunt this place. Sergeant walks point through sucking mud, dreams of hot showers through scent of blood, the radio man's antenna fragile as the idea of civilization. It is their faces that afflict me, their brave, unmapped faces: Italian-, African-, German-American homogenized by suffering into a grudging patina, drained of specificity, forever trudging against the Yellow Menace only to obtain a parallel. _O, garlic and sapphires in the mud clot the bedded axle tree: Yosarian, send in the clowns._ At the Vietnam War Memorial Black granite stretches its harsh, tapering wings up to pedestrian-level grass but sucks me down, here, at the intersection of names. I forgive, I must, though I wish something could heal this gash in the earth. Behold, all theorists, the price of theory: extreme unction by napalm and blood, buried whole or in pieces. The VA grants prostheses but not minds free of horror. _In jungles tumescent, through villages of straw, by the Mekong where catfish sleep in mud-heaven, we tramped, disarming mines and flushing tunnels, shot women and children for collaboration, smoked Thai-stick until stuporous and still the sound of Charlie played on every frond._ Beat against this polished rock, America, this vast projective surface for your sins, wear your heart out. It's not how many died but that they died in vain, achieving nothing except our grief for them. It's said you cannot write a good poem until recollected in tranquility. Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, dividing author from reader and reader from page. Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, let sons mistake honor for stupidity, let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, Let teachers suicide in public in partial recompense, let preachers castrate themselves for passive assent, let everything in America that breathes hang its head in irrefragable shame. Here is the legacy of your assumptions, here the necropolis of your dark-suited wisdom: _A city set in a pit cannot be hid_ (published in the Adirondack Review) --CE From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 30 15:45:56 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:45:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day References: <002c01c44675$45f9e720$623f1c40@Emily> <006e01c4467c$a4df6790$7e607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anny Ballardini" To: Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] memorial day | Very good (quoting from CE Chaffin: At the Vietnam War Memorial): | | It's said you cannot write a good poem | | until recollected in tranquility. | | Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, | dividing author from reader and reader from page. | | Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: | | let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, | let sons mistake honor for stupidity, | let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, | let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, | let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, | _________________ | Take care, Anny Ballardini | | | From: "C. E. Chaffin" | Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:04 PM | | | > Memorial Triptych-- I wrote these in 1999 in the order I saw the three | > monuments. | > | > | > | > | > | > At the Lincoln Memorial | > | > | > | > _"If I could save the Union by freeing the slaves, I would; | > If I could save the Union by not freeing the slaves, I would."_ | > | > | > | > Up three tiers of steps-- | > your mammoth shoe at eye level. | > Gargantuan hands rest easy now. | > | > Folds of robes flow from your throne | > | > in static waterfall, a Greek convention | > | > in American marble. | > | > | > | > Your face looks younger | > | > than the face from books-- | > | > the brochure explains | > | > the sculptor used your death mask. | > | > | > | > Your eyes, so often scored by laughter | > | > now stare grimly across the reflecting pool | > at that less human monument | > | > of Washington, your father: | > | > He the machine, you the Christ | > | > embalmed in stone under cool portico, | > | > resurrected in cold recall. | > | > | > | > Ah, Honest Abe, tell us a joke | > | > to humanize your face! | > | > The one about Grant | > | > and the whiskey would do. | > You would likely laugh | > | > at such marmoreal apotheosis; | > | > besides, it seems unfair | > | > when, after black humor, | > | > justice was your strong suit. | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > At the Korean War Memorial | > | > | > | > Bronze ponchos in the cold rain | > beneath the hot sun of a humid day: | > | > _Give me your tired, your poor, | > your huddled masses yearning to be free; | > I'll send them ten thousand miles | > | > across the western sea._ | > | > | > | > Look: they are march-weary, | > not one Hollywood face | > | > but the grim jowls of patience | > | > haunt this place. | > | > Sergeant walks point | > | > through sucking mud, | > | > dreams of hot showers | > | > through scent of blood, | > | > the radio man's antenna fragile | > as the idea of civilization. | > | > | > | > It is their faces that afflict me, | > | > their brave, unmapped faces: | > | > Italian-, African-, German-American | > | > homogenized by suffering | > | > into a grudging patina, | > | > drained of specificity, | > | > forever trudging | > | > against the Yellow Menace | > | > only to obtain a parallel. | > | > | > | > _O, garlic and sapphires in the mud | > clot the bedded axle tree: | > | > Yosarian, send in the clowns._ | > | > | > | > | > | > At the Vietnam War Memorial | > | > | > | > Black granite stretches its harsh, tapering wings | > up to pedestrian-level grass but sucks me | > | > down, here, at the intersection of names. | > I forgive, I must, though I wish something | > could heal this gash in the earth. | > | > | > | > Behold, all theorists, the price of theory: | > extreme unction by napalm and blood, | > buried whole or in pieces. | > | > The VA grants prostheses | > but not minds free of horror. | > | > | > | > _In jungles tumescent, through villages | > of straw, by the Mekong where catfish | > sleep in mud-heaven, we tramped, | > disarming mines and flushing tunnels, | > | > shot women and children for collaboration, | > | > smoked Thai-stick until stuporous | > | > and still the sound of Charlie | > | > played on every frond._ | > | > | > | > Beat against this polished rock, America, | > this vast projective surface for your sins, | > | > wear your heart out. It's not how many died | > | > but that they died in vain, achieving | > | > nothing except our grief for them. | > | > | > It's said you cannot write a good poem | > | > until recollected in tranquility. | > | > Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, | > dividing author from reader and reader from page. | > | > Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: | > | > let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, | > let sons mistake honor for stupidity, | > let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, | > let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, | > let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, | > | > | > | > Let teachers suicide in public in partial recompense, | > | > let preachers castrate themselves for passive assent, | > let everything in America that breathes | > hang its head in irrefragable shame. | > Here is the legacy of your assumptions, | > here the necropolis of your dark-suited wisdom: | > _A city set in a pit cannot be hid_ | > | > | > | > (published in the Adirondack Review) | > | > | > | > --CE | > _______________________________________________ | > New-Poetry mailing list | > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | > | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From eliotpoe at hotmail.com Sun May 30 15:46:37 2004 From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:46:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day References: <002c01c44675$45f9e720$623f1c40@Emily> <006e01c4467c$a4df6790$7e607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: Thanks, Anny. I re-sent it with the right formatting. I can be such a net dufus. --CE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anny Ballardini" To: Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] memorial day | Very good (quoting from CE Chaffin: At the Vietnam War Memorial): | | It's said you cannot write a good poem | | until recollected in tranquility. | | Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, | dividing author from reader and reader from page. | | Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: | | let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, | let sons mistake honor for stupidity, | let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, | let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, | let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, | _________________ | Take care, Anny Ballardini | | | From: "C. E. Chaffin" | Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 9:04 PM | | | > Memorial Triptych-- I wrote these in 1999 in the order I saw the three | > monuments. | > | > | > | > | > | > At the Lincoln Memorial | > | > | > | > _"If I could save the Union by freeing the slaves, I would; | > If I could save the Union by not freeing the slaves, I would."_ | > | > | > | > Up three tiers of steps-- | > your mammoth shoe at eye level. | > Gargantuan hands rest easy now. | > | > Folds of robes flow from your throne | > | > in static waterfall, a Greek convention | > | > in American marble. | > | > | > | > Your face looks younger | > | > than the face from books-- | > | > the brochure explains | > | > the sculptor used your death mask. | > | > | > | > Your eyes, so often scored by laughter | > | > now stare grimly across the reflecting pool | > at that less human monument | > | > of Washington, your father: | > | > He the machine, you the Christ | > | > embalmed in stone under cool portico, | > | > resurrected in cold recall. | > | > | > | > Ah, Honest Abe, tell us a joke | > | > to humanize your face! | > | > The one about Grant | > | > and the whiskey would do. | > You would likely laugh | > | > at such marmoreal apotheosis; | > | > besides, it seems unfair | > | > when, after black humor, | > | > justice was your strong suit. | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > At the Korean War Memorial | > | > | > | > Bronze ponchos in the cold rain | > beneath the hot sun of a humid day: | > | > _Give me your tired, your poor, | > your huddled masses yearning to be free; | > I'll send them ten thousand miles | > | > across the western sea._ | > | > | > | > Look: they are march-weary, | > not one Hollywood face | > | > but the grim jowls of patience | > | > haunt this place. | > | > Sergeant walks point | > | > through sucking mud, | > | > dreams of hot showers | > | > through scent of blood, | > | > the radio man's antenna fragile | > as the idea of civilization. | > | > | > | > It is their faces that afflict me, | > | > their brave, unmapped faces: | > | > Italian-, African-, German-American | > | > homogenized by suffering | > | > into a grudging patina, | > | > drained of specificity, | > | > forever trudging | > | > against the Yellow Menace | > | > only to obtain a parallel. | > | > | > | > _O, garlic and sapphires in the mud | > clot the bedded axle tree: | > | > Yosarian, send in the clowns._ | > | > | > | > | > | > At the Vietnam War Memorial | > | > | > | > Black granite stretches its harsh, tapering wings | > up to pedestrian-level grass but sucks me | > | > down, here, at the intersection of names. | > I forgive, I must, though I wish something | > could heal this gash in the earth. | > | > | > | > Behold, all theorists, the price of theory: | > extreme unction by napalm and blood, | > buried whole or in pieces. | > | > The VA grants prostheses | > but not minds free of horror. | > | > | > | > _In jungles tumescent, through villages | > of straw, by the Mekong where catfish | > sleep in mud-heaven, we tramped, | > disarming mines and flushing tunnels, | > | > shot women and children for collaboration, | > | > smoked Thai-stick until stuporous | > | > and still the sound of Charlie | > | > played on every frond._ | > | > | > | > Beat against this polished rock, America, | > this vast projective surface for your sins, | > | > wear your heart out. It's not how many died | > | > but that they died in vain, achieving | > | > nothing except our grief for them. | > | > | > It's said you cannot write a good poem | > | > until recollected in tranquility. | > | > Let this be a bad poem, bad as the war, | > dividing author from reader and reader from page. | > | > Let it drive a wedge between fathers and sons: | > | > let fathers mistake rebellion for disloyalty, | > let sons mistake honor for stupidity, | > let senators mistake appropriation for commitment, | > let mothers confuse waste with sacrifice, | > let sisters turn to prostitution to forget, | > | > | > | > Let teachers suicide in public in partial recompense, | > | > let preachers castrate themselves for passive assent, | > let everything in America that breathes | > hang its head in irrefragable shame. | > Here is the legacy of your assumptions, | > here the necropolis of your dark-suited wisdom: | > _A city set in a pit cannot be hid_ | > | > | > | > (published in the Adirondack Review) | > | > | > | > --CE | > _______________________________________________ | > New-Poetry mailing list | > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | > | | _______________________________________________ | New-Poetry mailing list | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry | From Thom424 at aol.com Sun May 30 23:52:50 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 23:52:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] memorial day poem Message-ID: <1cc.2241e000.2dec0612@aol.com> At the Un-National Monument Along the Canadian Border --William Stafford ? This is the field where the battle did not happen, where the unknown soldier did not die. This is the field where grass joined hands, where no monument stands, and the only heroic thing is the sky. Birds fly here without any sound, unfolding their wings across the open. No people killed-on this ground hallowed by neglect and an air so tame that people will celebrate it by forgetting its name. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Mon May 31 00:19:35 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 00:19:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] csm profile of the new editor of *poetry* Message-ID: <77.2aba5d3e.2dec0c57@aol.com> http://blogs.csmonitor.com/the_poetic_life/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 31 09:52:44 2004 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 09:52:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wiman in Christian Science Monitor Message-ID: <003101c44716$8e3ecef0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> One snipped from the interview, ad http://blogs.csmonitor.com/the_poetic_life/ Given his aesthetic choices, it's perhaps no surprise that Wiman feels a kinship with the Romantics. "Those are the poets I respond to most deeply," he says. Oddly enough, many readers who do not like contemporary poetry feel the same way. They balk at verse that lacks defined borders and music. Wiman, who receives 90,000 poems annually, balks at other trends, too. He doesn't like work that focuses solely on the self, or that tries so hard to make a point that it loses all humanity. Poetry should speak to the age, he believes. I don't see anything wrong with this -- I don't particularly disagree with it. I probably agree with it more than not. But unless you're committed to some burstnorm or other, there isn't anything in it to disagree with. It's too vague to disagree with. The interviewer, Elizabeth Lund, goes on to mention Wiman's prowess at tennis, and says, One could assume that the game appealed because of the constant back-and-forth exchange, the juxtaposition of strict rules, contained power, strategy on the fly. [Which is at least a little more interesting than Wiman's manifestino] But assuming anything about Wiman is foolish. Just when you think you've figured him out, he surprises yet again. But -- at least in the interview -- he doesn't. So how much of a manifesto do we want? Is it enough to say don't focus too much on self, don't try to hard to make a point, speak to the age? Would I want someone to interview me, and come away summarizing me that way? Well, no. For some reason, I'm reminded of the interview I did with a local Eastern-spiritual, New Age innocent, who told me, "There's no such thing as bad poetry, because if you write what you feel, how can that be bad?" And I find myself preferring that colossal wrongness to the safe rightness attributed to Winans -- find myself preferring the sentiment I disagree with in every molecule to the sentiment I pretty much agree with. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 31 14:38:47 2004 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:38:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman Message-ID: I am currently reading Roy Morris's *The Better Angel: Walt Whitman in the Civil War*--highly recommended, very moving. So, in honor of Whitman's birthday today as well as Memorial Day: A Sight in Camp A sight in camp in the day-break grey and dim, As from my tent I emerge so early, sleepless, As slow I walk in the cool fresh air, the path near by the hospital tent, Three forms I see on stretchers lying, brought out there, untended lying, Over each the blanket spread, ample brownish woollen blanket, Grey and heavy blanket, folding, covering all. Curious, I halt, and silent stand; Then with light fingers I from the face of the nearest, the first, just lift the blanket: Who are you, elderly man so gaunt and grim, with well-grey?d hair, and flesh all sunken about the eyes? Who are you, my dear comrade? Then to the second I step?and who are you, my child and darling? Who are you, sweet boy, with cheeks yet blooming? Then to the third?a face nor child, nor old, very calm, as of beautiful yellow-white ivory; Young man, I think I know you?I think this face of yours is the face of the Christ himself; Dead and divine, and brother of all, and here again he lies. --Walt Whitman ---------------------------- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Thom424 at aol.com Mon May 31 15:00:02 2004 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:00:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Contact address for William Meredith Message-ID: <15b.36753283.2decdab2@aol.com> Does anyone have a contact/mailing address for William Meredith? I understand he lives in Connecticut & Florida. Thanks, Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 31 17:22:34 2004 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:22:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] for Memorial Day Message-ID: <27.597bb265.2decfc1a@aol.com>