From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Mar  1 08:00:56 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:00:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c3ff8d$40626e10$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Bill Bathurst & Richard Brautigan -
Deciding to stop

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

The Dissociated Writing Project

Gender & the problem
of the unmarked case
(The Dreamers, continued)

Bertolucci's The Dreamers -
The film you make vs.
the one you think you're making

A memorial to Gil Ott

Kathleen Fraser
Coupling Categories Forced into Discreteness

Kathleen Fraser
Discrete Categories Forced into Coupling

Joltin' Joe Ceravolo -
Reinventing the NY School & surrealism
& making it look easy

John High's "Here" -
Giving voice, avoid false closure

Kathleen Fraser:
Creating communities in writing

Piseogs -
Casting spells with Pattie McCarthy

Pattie McCarthy's Verso -
Pagination & interpretation

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Mar  1 10:17:43 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 09:17:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
Message-ID: <BC68B037.711F%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Garrison Keillor informs me that today is the birthday of Robert Lowell,
Howard Nemerov, and Richard Wilbur.  That seems worth a small toast.

Besides, I'm having some fun imagining that birthday party.  Not to mention
imagining Nemerov going among the dead. . . .


Larkin
                   
Imagine Larkin going among the dead,
Not yet at home there, as he wasn't here,
And doing them the way he did The Old Fools,
With edged contempt becoming sympathy
Of a sort, and sympathy contempt for death.

It's a quirky spirit he carried through the arch
To aftertime, making a salted fun
Of the holy show and grudging his respect
For all but truth, the master of a style
Able to see things as he saw through things.

He was our modern; in his attitude,
And not in all that crap about free verse.
He understood us, not as we would be
Understood in smartass critical remarks,
But as we are when we stand in our shoes and say.

Our Roman, too; he might not have cared to be,
But what I mean is this: you wander through
The galleries entranced with shepherdess and nymph,
The marble or alabaster faery and fay,
Then suddenly you come on him, the stone

Of his face scored up and scarred with the defeat
An honorable life has brought him to,
And know that backing up the tales we tell
Is mortal this, the what-it's-all-about,
So that you turn away, the lesson told,

That's it. Dear Warlock-Williams, might you weep?
The penetrative emptiness of that gaze
Kindly accusing none, forgiving none,
Is just the look upon the face of truth,
Mortality knowing itself as told to do,

And death the familiar comes as no surprise ?
"Ah, Warlock-Williams, are you here as well?"
With Auden, with Hardy, with the other great and dead,
Dear Larkin of the anastrophic mind,
Forever now among the undeceived.

--Philip Larkin



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Mar  1 15:32:50 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:32:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
References: <BC68B037.711F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002001c3ffcc$5e51db60$04def63f@Helen>

Haven't gotten many messages of late - is it something I
ate?

sprung rhythm --
the pause before the ball
smacks into the glove

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:17 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays


> Garrison Keillor informs me that today is the birthday of Robert Lowell,
> Howard Nemerov, and Richard Wilbur.  That seems worth a small toast.
>
> Besides, I'm having some fun imagining that birthday party.  Not to
mention
> imagining Nemerov going among the dead. . . .
>
>
> Larkin
>
> Imagine Larkin going among the dead,
> Not yet at home there, as he wasn't here,
> And doing them the way he did The Old Fools,
> With edged contempt becoming sympathy
> Of a sort, and sympathy contempt for death.
>
> It's a quirky spirit he carried through the arch
> To aftertime, making a salted fun
> Of the holy show and grudging his respect
> For all but truth, the master of a style
> Able to see things as he saw through things.
>
> He was our modern; in his attitude,
> And not in all that crap about free verse.
> He understood us, not as we would be
> Understood in smartass critical remarks,
> But as we are when we stand in our shoes and say.
>
> Our Roman, too; he might not have cared to be,
> But what I mean is this: you wander through
> The galleries entranced with shepherdess and nymph,
> The marble or alabaster faery and fay,
> Then suddenly you come on him, the stone
>
> Of his face scored up and scarred with the defeat
> An honorable life has brought him to,
> And know that backing up the tales we tell
> Is mortal this, the what-it's-all-about,
> So that you turn away, the lesson told,
>
> That's it. Dear Warlock-Williams, might you weep?
> The penetrative emptiness of that gaze
> Kindly accusing none, forgiving none,
> Is just the look upon the face of truth,
> Mortality knowing itself as told to do,
>
> And death the familiar comes as no surprise ?
> "Ah, Warlock-Williams, are you here as well?"
> With Auden, with Hardy, with the other great and dead,
> Dear Larkin of the anastrophic mind,
> Forever now among the undeceived.
>
> --Philip Larkin
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Mar  1 17:34:06 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:34:06 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
References: <BC68B037.711F%grahamd@ripon.edu> <002001c3ffcc$5e51db60$04def63f@Helen>
Message-ID: <007401c3ffdd$4f6302d0$6b737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Dear Helen, it must be March!
Or Hal on holiday,
or, where is everybody?

From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birthdays


> Haven't gotten many messages of late - is it something I
> ate?
> 
> sprung rhythm --
> the pause before the ball
> smacks into the glove




From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Mar  1 21:08:46 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 21:08:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
References: <BC68B037.711F%grahamd@ripon.edu> <002001c3ffcc$5e51db60$04def63f@Helen> <007401c3ffdd$4f6302d0$6b737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <005b01c3fffb$4c343570$2cb35040@Helen>

Ah, this is what they mean when they talk about March madness. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birthdays


> Dear Helen, it must be March!
> Or Hal on holiday,
> or, where is everybody?
> 
> From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
> 
> 
> > Haven't gotten many messages of late - is it something I
> > ate?
> > 
> > sprung rhythm --
> > the pause before the ball
> > smacks into the glove
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Mon Mar  1 22:30:56 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:30:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
In-Reply-To: <BC68B037.711F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <041E5081-6BFA-11D8-887B-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Nemerov's birthday was Feb. 29.

Wendy

On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 10:17 AM, David Graham wrote:

> Garrison Keillor informs me that today is the birthday of Robert 
> Lowell,
> Howard Nemerov, and Richard Wilbur.  That seems worth a small toast.
>
> Besides, I'm having some fun imagining that birthday party.  Not to 
> mention
> imagining Nemerov going among the dead. . . .
>
>
> Larkin
>
> Imagine Larkin going among the dead,
> Not yet at home there, as he wasn't here,
> And doing them the way he did The Old Fools,
> With edged contempt becoming sympathy
> Of a sort, and sympathy contempt for death.
>
> It's a quirky spirit he carried through the arch
> To aftertime, making a salted fun
> Of the holy show and grudging his respect
> For all but truth, the master of a style
> Able to see things as he saw through things.
>
> He was our modern; in his attitude,
> And not in all that crap about free verse.
> He understood us, not as we would be
> Understood in smartass critical remarks,
> But as we are when we stand in our shoes and say.
>
> Our Roman, too; he might not have cared to be,
> But what I mean is this: you wander through
> The galleries entranced with shepherdess and nymph,
> The marble or alabaster faery and fay,
> Then suddenly you come on him, the stone
>
> Of his face scored up and scarred with the defeat
> An honorable life has brought him to,
> And know that backing up the tales we tell
> Is mortal this, the what-it's-all-about,
> So that you turn away, the lesson told,
>
> That's it. Dear Warlock-Williams, might you weep?
> The penetrative emptiness of that gaze
> Kindly accusing none, forgiving none,
> Is just the look upon the face of truth,
> Mortality knowing itself as told to do,
>
> And death the familiar comes as no surprise ?
> "Ah, Warlock-Williams, are you here as well?"
> With Auden, with Hardy, with the other great and dead,
> Dear Larkin of the anastrophic mind,
> Forever now among the undeceived.
>
> --Philip Larkin
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
--------------------------

We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with 
nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, 
and a presumption that once our eyes watered.
Tom Stoppard
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Mar  1 22:39:53 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 21:39:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
In-Reply-To: <041E5081-6BFA-11D8-887B-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BC695E29.7199%grahamd@ripon.edu>

> From: Wendy Battin <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
 
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
> 
> Nemerov's birthday was Feb. 29.
> 
> Wendy 
> 


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Mon Mar  1 22:42:27 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 22:42:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
In-Reply-To: <BC695E29.7199%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <9FEB5764-6BFB-11D8-887B-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 10:39 PM, David Graham wrote:
>> From the Academy of American Poets website:
>
> "Howard Nemerov was born on March 1, 1920 in New York, New York."
>
> What gives?
>

He claimed to be a Leap Day baby.  Celebrated March 1st of necessity, 
3/4ths of the time.

Unless he was having us on, that is.  Always entirely possible.

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
--------------------------

Now begins a torrent of words and a trickling of sense.
Theocritus of Chios
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Mar  1 23:15:48 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 23:15:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthdays
Message-ID: <c0.67cf2d5.2d756474@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/1/2004 9:36:52 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> "Howard Nemerov was born on March 1, 1920 in New York, New York."
> 
> What gives?
It's a wondeful town!  The Bronx is up and the Battery's down.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Mar  3 00:08:52 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 23:08:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
Message-ID: <BC6AC484.71F5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

To a Stranger Born in Some Distant Country Hundreds of Years From Now

     "I write poems for a stranger who will be born in some distant country
hundreds of years from now."
--Mary Oliver

Nobody here likes a wet dog.
No one wants anything to do with a dog
that is wet from being out in the rain
or retrieving a stick from a lake.
Look how she wanders around the crowded pub tonight
going from one person to another
hoping for a pat on the head, a rub behind the ears,
something that could be given with one hand
without even wrinkling the conversation.

But everyone pushes her away,
some with a knee, others with the sole of a boot.
Even the children, who don't realize she is wet
until they go to pet her,
push her away
then wipe their hands on their clothes.
And whenever she heads toward me,
I show her my palm, and she turns aside.

O stranger of the future!
O inconceivable being!
whatever the shape of your house,
however you scoot from place to place,
no matter how strange and colorless the clothes you may wear,
I bet nobody likes a wet dog either.
I bet everyone in your pub,
even the children, pushes her away.

-- Billy Collins.  *Picnic, Lightning*, 1998.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Mar  3 09:54:20 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:54:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
References: <BC6AC484.71F5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00db01c4012f$692e7700$b50a9942@Helen>

David, thank you for posting - I love dog poems.

Wasn't there an anthology once about poet's dogs?

Someone said the world is divided into two kinds of people - dog people and
cat people.

Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:08 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs


> To a Stranger Born in Some Distant Country Hundreds of Years From Now
>
>      "I write poems for a stranger who will be born in some distant
country
> hundreds of years from now."
> --Mary Oliver
>
> Nobody here likes a wet dog.
> No one wants anything to do with a dog
> that is wet from being out in the rain
> or retrieving a stick from a lake.
> Look how she wanders around the crowded pub tonight
> going from one person to another
> hoping for a pat on the head, a rub behind the ears,
> something that could be given with one hand
> without even wrinkling the conversation.
>
> But everyone pushes her away,
> some with a knee, others with the sole of a boot.
> Even the children, who don't realize she is wet
> until they go to pet her,
> push her away
> then wipe their hands on their clothes.
> And whenever she heads toward me,
> I show her my palm, and she turns aside.
>
> O stranger of the future!
> O inconceivable being!
> whatever the shape of your house,
> however you scoot from place to place,
> no matter how strange and colorless the clothes you may wear,
> I bet nobody likes a wet dog either.
> I bet everyone in your pub,
> even the children, pushes her away.
>
> -- Billy Collins.  *Picnic, Lightning*, 1998.
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Mar  3 10:15:21 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:15:21 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Wet dogs
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A218@ariel.ripon.edu>

There are a number of dogged poetry anthologies, but I modestly prefer the
one that happens to include a poem of mine:  *Dog Music*, ed. Joseph Duemer
& Jim Simmerman.  St. Martin's Press, 1996.  In addition to the obvious
reason, I prefer this antho because it avoids Cuteness, always a danger in
this sort of operation.  A portion of the profits on the book go to the
animal welfare organizations, too.

Besides Graham (D, not J), there are poems by Amichai, Carruth, Bishop,
Wilbur, WC Williams, Gunn, McGrath, Merrill, Simic, Rich, Voigt, Levertov,
Edson, Matthews, Levine, Justice, Holub, Mueller, Rakoski, Goldbarth, and,
yes, Collins.  

Here's a not-too-well-known poem from *Dog Music*:

Uncle Dog: The Poet At 9


I did not want to be old Mr.
Garbage man, but uncle dog
who rode sitting beside him. 

Uncle dog had always looked
to me to be truck-strong
wise-eyed, a cur-like Ford 

Of a dog. I did not want 
to be Mr. Garbage man because
all he had was cans to do. 

Uncle dog sat there me-beside-him
emptying nothing. Barely even
looking from garbage side to side: 

Like rich people in the backseats
of chauffeur-cars, only shaggy 
in an unwagging tall-scrawny way. 

Uncle dog belonged any just where 
he sat, but old Mr. Garbage man 
had to stop at everysingle can. 

I thought. I did not want to be Mr. 
Everybody calls them that first. 
A dog is said, Dog! Or by name. 

I would rather be called Rover 
than Mr. And sit like a tough 
smart mongrel beside a garbage man. 

Uncle dog always went to places
unconcerned, without no hurry. 
Independent like some leashless 

Toot. Honorable among scavenger 
can-picking dogs. And with a bitch 
at every other can. And meat: 

His for the barking. Oh, I wanted 
to be uncle dog--sharp, high fox-
eared, cur-Ford truck-faced 

With his pick of the bones.
A doing, truckman's dog 
and not a simple child-dog 

Nor friend to man, but an uncle 
travelling, and to himself--
and a bitch at every second can.

--Robert Sward


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Helen Ruggieri
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, March 3, 2004 8:54 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
> 
> David, thank you for posting - I love dog poems.
> 
> Wasn't there an anthology once about poet's dogs?
> 
> Someone said the world is divided into two kinds of people - dog people
> and
> cat people.
> 
> Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?
> 
> 


From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Mar  3 10:47:11 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 09:47:11 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Today's poetry birthdays
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A21A@ariel.ripon.edu>

. . . include James Merrill, Edmund Waller, & Edward Thomas.

Rain 

 Rain, midnight rain, nothing but the wild rain 
 On this bleak hut, and solitude, and me 
 Remembering again that I shall die 
 And neither hear the rain nor give it thanks 
 For washing me cleaner than I have been 
 Since I was born into this solitude. 
 Blessed are the dead that the rain rains upon: 
 But here I pray that none whom once I loved 
 Is dying tonight or lying still awake 
 Solitary, listening to the rain, 
 Either in pain or thus in sympathy 
 Helpless among the living and the dead, 
 Like a cold water among broken reeds, 
 Myriads of broken reeds all still and stiff, 
 Like me who have no love which this wild rain 
 Has not dissolved except the love of death, 
 If love it be towards what is perfect and 
 Cannot, the tempest tells me, disappoint.

--Edward Thomas (1878-1917)

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 10:57:53 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:57:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
In-Reply-To: <00db01c4012f$692e7700$b50a9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <20040303155753.52526.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>

I've always been a dog person--I have a dog named in
honor of the little girl in "To Kill a Mockingbird,"
Scout.  My Scout is a tomboy as well, a little mongrel
who likes to chase squirrels and bark her damn fool
head off.

As far as cats go, Philip Levine has a poem called "A
Theory of Prosody" about a cat, I believe.

However, I've also heard it said that the world is
actually divided into these two types of people:

Video Game People
Pinball Machine People

Wasn't there a recent anthology of poems with video
games as the subject?

Which are you, Mr. Graham?

Jeff Newberry


--- Helen Ruggieri <hruggier at localnet.com> wrote:
> David, thank you for posting - I love dog poems.
> 
> Wasn't there an anthology once about poet's dogs?
> 
> Someone said the world is divided into two kinds of
> people - dog people and
> cat people.
> 
> Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:08 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
> 
> 
> > To a Stranger Born in Some Distant Country
> Hundreds of Years From Now
> >
> >      "I write poems for a stranger who will be
> born in some distant
> country
> > hundreds of years from now."
> > --Mary Oliver
> >
> > Nobody here likes a wet dog.
> > No one wants anything to do with a dog
> > that is wet from being out in the rain
> > or retrieving a stick from a lake.
> > Look how she wanders around the crowded pub
> tonight
> > going from one person to another
> > hoping for a pat on the head, a rub behind the
> ears,
> > something that could be given with one hand
> > without even wrinkling the conversation.
> >
> > But everyone pushes her away,
> > some with a knee, others with the sole of a boot.
> > Even the children, who don't realize she is wet
> > until they go to pet her,
> > push her away
> > then wipe their hands on their clothes.
> > And whenever she heads toward me,
> > I show her my palm, and she turns aside.
> >
> > O stranger of the future!
> > O inconceivable being!
> > whatever the shape of your house,
> > however you scoot from place to place,
> > no matter how strange and colorless the clothes
> you may wear,
> > I bet nobody likes a wet dog either.
> > I bet everyone in your pub,
> > even the children, pushes her away.
> >
> > -- Billy Collins.  *Picnic, Lightning*, 1998.
> >
> >
> >
> ====================================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> > Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > Poetry Library:
> >
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> ====================================================
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 10:58:48 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:58:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling all Bobs
Message-ID: <20040303155848.81137.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com>

Is Bob Hicok on this list?

If so, Bob, could you drop me a line?

Thanks,

Jeff Newberry

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Mar  3 11:18:33 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:18:33 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
References: <20040303155753.52526.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c4013b$2dc6fb90$301c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I guess I am a cat bird plant card-game frustrated dog monkey blue-crow
(cannot remember the right name, they can speak) person, frustrated because
I never had a dog or a monkey or that crow, and those were the animals I
would have liked most, thus started listening to birds and once had a cat
who was able to conquer me completely and now I resigned to plants who
almost all died during the cold winter, waiting for spring,
not Mr. Graham
but Mrs. Ballardini
cheers

From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 4:57 PM


> I've always been a dog person--I have a dog named in
> honor of the little girl in "To Kill a Mockingbird,"
> Scout.  My Scout is a tomboy as well, a little mongrel
> who likes to chase squirrels and bark her damn fool
> head off.
>
> As far as cats go, Philip Levine has a poem called "A
> Theory of Prosody" about a cat, I believe.
>
> However, I've also heard it said that the world is
> actually divided into these two types of people:
>
> Video Game People
> Pinball Machine People
>
> Wasn't there a recent anthology of poems with video
> games as the subject?
>
> Which are you, Mr. Graham?
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> --- Helen Ruggieri <hruggier at localnet.com> wrote:
> > David, thank you for posting - I love dog poems.
> >
> > Wasn't there an anthology once about poet's dogs?
> >
> > Someone said the world is divided into two kinds of
> > people - dog people and
> > cat people.
> >
> > Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:08 AM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
> >
> >
> > > To a Stranger Born in Some Distant Country
> > Hundreds of Years From Now
> > >
> > >      "I write poems for a stranger who will be
> > born in some distant
> > country
> > > hundreds of years from now."
> > > --Mary Oliver
> > >
> > > Nobody here likes a wet dog.
> > > No one wants anything to do with a dog
> > > that is wet from being out in the rain
> > > or retrieving a stick from a lake.
> > > Look how she wanders around the crowded pub
> > tonight
> > > going from one person to another
> > > hoping for a pat on the head, a rub behind the
> > ears,
> > > something that could be given with one hand
> > > without even wrinkling the conversation.
> > >
> > > But everyone pushes her away,
> > > some with a knee, others with the sole of a boot.
> > > Even the children, who don't realize she is wet
> > > until they go to pet her,
> > > push her away
> > > then wipe their hands on their clothes.
> > > And whenever she heads toward me,
> > > I show her my palm, and she turns aside.
> > >
> > > O stranger of the future!
> > > O inconceivable being!
> > > whatever the shape of your house,
> > > however you scoot from place to place,
> > > no matter how strange and colorless the clothes
> > you may wear,
> > > I bet nobody likes a wet dog either.
> > > I bet everyone in your pub,
> > > even the children, pushes her away.
> > >
> > > -- Billy Collins.  *Picnic, Lightning*, 1998.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ====================================================
> > > David Graham
> > > grahamd at ripon.edu
> > > Home Page:
> > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > > Poetry Library:
> > >
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > >
> > ====================================================
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Wed Mar  3 12:13:21 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 09:13:21 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
In-Reply-To: <200403031701.i23H12XE028132@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:01 PM 3/3/2004 -0500, Helen wrote:

>Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?

As long as Eliot's included, Bring It On!

Barry
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Mar  3 12:28:45 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:28:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen>

There's the WCW peom about the cat steppping over the jam pot 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barry Spacks 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:13 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS


  At 12:01 PM 3/3/2004 -0500, Helen wrote:


    Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?

  As long as Eliot's included, Bring It On!

  Barry
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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Wed Mar  3 14:18:24 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:18:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8A8E3E72-6D47-11D8-A150-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

> At 12:01 PM 3/3/2004 -0500, Helen wrote:
>
> Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?

If anyone's editing such, let me know.  I have far too many of them, & 
have to ration them, a few per book.

Wendy, owned by cats




Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu


I believe that if it were left to artists to choose their own labels, 
most would choose none.
Ben Shahn



From Faustina1 at aol.com  Wed Mar  3 14:24:05 2004
From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:24:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
Message-ID: <195.26a92409.2d778ad5@aol.com>

Yes!  Cat poems!  How lovely it would be if someone did a charity anthology 
of such--and had the proceeds donated to a no-kill shelter or some such 
place...Janet
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Wed Mar  3 02:03:00 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:03:00 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs (Richard Dillon)
In-Reply-To: <200403031701.i23H1BXE028137@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200403031701.i23H1BXE028137@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc6b3306461e@[204.215.201.139]>

TIMAEUS


Comes dog bounding
Over vast lawn
And in its body barking
Voice of a man.



Richard Dillon
ELEMENOPE Productions
-- 
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Mar  3 03:07:17 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 03:07:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
References: <195.26a92409.2d778ad5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011601c400f6$8b891c30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Excerpted from Galway Kinnell -- I don't have the whole poem close to hand.

      I do know - I don't dare say it aloud -
     when the cat is around something goes wrong.
     Why doesn't our host forewarn us? Well,
     he tries. He gives each guest on arrival
     a list of instructions about the cat.
     I was never able to read mine,
     for the cat was watching when I got it,
     so I stuck it in my pocket to read later, 
     but the cat saw, leapt at me, nearly 
     knocked me down, clawed at the pocket, 
     would have ripped my clothes off 
     if I had not handed it over.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Faustina1 at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 2:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS


  Yes!  Cat poems!  How lovely it would be if someone did a charity anthology of such--and had the proceeds donated to a no-kill shelter or some such place...Janet 
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From poemlady at cox.net  Wed Mar  3 15:21:31 2004
From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:21:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
References: <BC6AC484.71F5%grahamd@ripon.edu> <00db01c4012f$692e7700$b50a9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <011601c4015d$1ddcc350$6c41e544@Zoom>

Hi Helen. The dog anthology is "Unleashed."
Audrey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs


> David, thank you for posting - I love dog poems.
>
> Wasn't there an anthology once about poet's dogs?
>
> Someone said the world is divided into two kinds of people - dog people
and
> cat people.
>
> Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:08 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
>
>
> > To a Stranger Born in Some Distant Country Hundreds of Years From Now
> >
> >      "I write poems for a stranger who will be born in some distant
> country
> > hundreds of years from now."
> > --Mary Oliver
> >
> > Nobody here likes a wet dog.
> > No one wants anything to do with a dog
> > that is wet from being out in the rain
> > or retrieving a stick from a lake.
> > Look how she wanders around the crowded pub tonight
> > going from one person to another
> > hoping for a pat on the head, a rub behind the ears,
> > something that could be given with one hand
> > without even wrinkling the conversation.
> >
> > But everyone pushes her away,
> > some with a knee, others with the sole of a boot.
> > Even the children, who don't realize she is wet
> > until they go to pet her,
> > push her away
> > then wipe their hands on their clothes.
> > And whenever she heads toward me,
> > I show her my palm, and she turns aside.
> >
> > O stranger of the future!
> > O inconceivable being!
> > whatever the shape of your house,
> > however you scoot from place to place,
> > no matter how strange and colorless the clothes you may wear,
> > I bet nobody likes a wet dog either.
> > I bet everyone in your pub,
> > even the children, pushes her away.
> >
> > -- Billy Collins.  *Picnic, Lightning*, 1998.
> >
> >
> > ====================================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> > Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > ====================================================
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Mar  3 15:29:08 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:29:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RATS - poems by others
In-Reply-To: <011601c400f6$8b891c30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <195.26a92409.2d778ad5@aol.com> <011601c400f6$8b891c30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <20040303152700.B92805@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Walking on dishes
 the rat's feet make the music
 of shivering cold



Light winter rain
 like scampering rat's feet
 over my koto.

Taniguchi (Yosa) Buson.

-----------------------------

THE RAT-CATCHER.

 I AM the bard known far and wide,
               The travell'd rat-catcher beside;
               A man most needful to this town,
               So glorious through its old renown.
               However many rats I see,
               How many weasels there may be,
               I cleanse the place from ev'ry one,
               All needs must helter-skelter run.

 Sometimes the bard so full of cheer
               As a child-catcher will appear,
               Who e'en the wildest captive brings,
               Whene'er his golden tales he sings.
               However proud each boy in heart,
               However much the maidens start,
               I bid the chords sweet music make,
               And all must follow in my wake.

 Sometimes the skilful bard ye view
               In the form of maiden-catcher too;
               For he no city enters e'er,
               Without effecting wonders there.
               However coy may be each maid,
               However the women seem afraid,
               Yet all will love-sick be ere long
               To sound of magic lute and song.

-Goethe






From FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com  Wed Mar  3 15:43:17 2004
From: FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:43:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diggs & Conrad:  Poetry Project, 3/15
Message-ID: <1ed.1a89c387.2d779d65@aol.com>

Latasha N. Nevada Diggs & 
CAConrad

Monday, March 15
8pm

Poetry Project at
St. Mark's Church
in the Bowery
131 E. 10th St.
New York City

-------------

Writer and vocalist Latasha N. Nevada Diggs' literary and sound works have 
been featured and recorded in various publications and audio projects ranging 
from rock to house music.? She is the author of two chapbooks, Ichi-Ban: from 
the files of negr?ta mu?eca Linda and Ni-Ban: Villa Miser?a, as well as the 
writer and producer of an experimental audio essay, "Televis?on".? A fellow of the 
Cave Canem Workshop for African American Poets, she was the 2002 artist in 
residence at Harvestworks Digital Media Arts Center.? She has received 
fellowships and scholarships in the field of poetry from both the New York Foundation 
for the Arts and Naropa University's Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics.

Some of her online links:

http://www.aozoramarket.com/eng/
-------------
http://www.drunkenboat.org/
-------------
http://www.nyfa.org/nyfa_artists_detail.asp?pid=4962
-------------
http://womenarts.org/
-------------
http://cavecanempoets.org

-------------

CAConrad has three forthcoming books: DEVIANT PROPULSION (Soft Skull Press), 
advancedELVIScourse (Buck Downs Books), and FRANK (The Jargon Society). He 
co-edits FREQUENCY Audio Journal with Magdalena Zurawski, and edits BANJO: Poets 
Talking, and 9for9. Among other things, he is currently collaborating with 
poet Frank Sherlock on their project "The City Real & Imagined:  Philadelphia 
Poems," also with Frank Sherlock & Jennifer Coleman on project "7."  He is part 
of The Philly Sound: http://phillysound.blogspot.com

Some of his online links:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect/i20/t/conrad1.html
-------------
http://www.tameme.org/issue_2/excerpts/conr-ex.html
-------------
http://www.lodestarquarterly.com/work/153/
-------------
http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/aa030403n.htm
-------------
http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/winter_2003/caconrad/home.html






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  3 18:06:41 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:06:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net> <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen>
Message-ID: <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

E. E. Cummings painted quite a good one about a cat:

(im)c-a-t(mo)
b,i;l:e

FallleA
ps!fl
OattumblI

sh?dr
IftwhirlF
(Ul)(lY)
&&&

away wanders:exact
ly;as if
not
hing had,ever happ
ene

D



sh
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Mar  3 19:29:25 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:29:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net>
 <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:09:49 +0400
From: Daren Enriquez <xywqruswwak at yahoo.com>
To: luap at mallasch.com
Subject: fw: ?

?????? many more Scooters

my name is \/|/\GR/\S $().95B/nD0SE

in 1822 C|/\LISM $2.O()2/g|)0SE

in 1900 } {EN|C/\LK $().91t/z|)OSE

Which one? /\Iso the CHE/\PEST PRICES ()|\|::

on that? PR()PEC|/\, GLUC0PH/\GE, \/|O]} {, Ce|ebre], l\/lERII)|/\,
Z0LOFF,
P/\}{|L, LIP|T()R

MIRphthalatestultifyLFE6/\DRFI\Ios0MpObR8Edora ama in 1877

You might put my say? CD Roms Altavista

---------------------------------------------------------------------



randomly generated spam as art? where is the world headed?

reax?

i can't see as this email would sell any people at all on anything. long
live the humans and their poetry...

lost in a poem,
-kpaul

http://www.mallasch.com/mug/




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Mar  3 19:53:19 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:53:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net> <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Mar 3, 2004, at 7:29 PM, kpaul mallasch wrote:

> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 02:09:49 +0400
> From: Daren Enriquez <xywqruswwak at yahoo.com>
> To: luap at mallasch.com
> Subject: fw: ?
>
> ?????? many more Scooters
>
> my name is \/|/\GR/\S $().95B/nD0SE
>
> in 1822 C|/\LISM $2.O()2/g|)0SE
>
> in 1900 } {EN|C/\LK $().91t/z|)OSE

<snip>

>
>
> randomly generated spam as art? where is the world headed?
>
> reax?
>
> i can't see as this email would sell any people at all on anything. 
> long
> live the humans and their poetry...
>
> lost in a poem,
> -kpaul
>

Spammers use that kind of word salad to get past the keyword and  
bayesian filters used by many corprorations and some individuals. If 
you never see it, you can't click on it.



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Mar  3 19:59:12 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:59:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net>
 <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
 <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20040303195620.F74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Michael -

thanks for the response. i know how/why they're made. i was wondering (and
maybe i should have stated a little clearer) if it can be called a poem
and passed off as such.

or, maybe i'm just an overworked american poetry dreaming of freedom of
time.

;)

-kpaul

http://www.mallasch.com/mug/

p.s. i handed out a 'turtle poem' assignment on MUG tonight and want to
thank the list for the idea...

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Michael Snider wrote:

> >
> >
> > randomly generated spam as art? where is the world headed?
> >
> > reax?
> >
> > i can't see as this email would sell any people at all on anything.
> > long
> > live the humans and their poetry...
> >
> > lost in a poem,
> > -kpaul
> >
>
> Spammers use that kind of word salad to get past the keyword and
> bayesian filters used by many corprorations and some individuals. If
> you never see it, you can't click on it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Mar  3 20:09:18 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:09:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <20040303195620.F74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net> <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com> <20040303195620.F74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <8FA58D48-6D78-11D8-8D9E-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Mar 3, 2004, at 7:59 PM, kpaul mallasch wrote:

>
> or, maybe i'm just an overworked american poetry dreaming of freedom of
> time.


Aren't we all!

Best,

Michael



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Mar  3 20:13:13 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:13:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <8FA58D48-6D78-11D8-8D9E-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net>
 <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
 <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com>
 <20040303195620.F74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <8FA58D48-6D78-11D8-8D9E-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20040303201248.N74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>

heh. 'poet' even ;)

-kpaul

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Michael Snider wrote:

>
> On Mar 3, 2004, at 7:59 PM, kpaul mallasch wrote:
>
> >
> > or, maybe i'm just an overworked american poetry dreaming of freedom of
> > time.
>
>
> Aren't we all!
>
> Best,
>
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  3 20:33:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:33:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net> <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com> <20040303195620.F74245@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <014101c40188$da9d04c0$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Michael -
>
> thanks for the response. i know how/why they're made. i was wondering (and
> maybe i should have stated a little clearer) if it can be called a poem
> and passed off as such.

I think it's quite a good found poem, full of happy accidents, e.g.: 0, then
(); D, then |); the "/\" and "\/"; the weird "C|/\LISM ," which suggests
both "CAPITALISM" and "SOCIALISM"; "encaulk?"; the years which suggest
history/seriousness; the wry  "my name is" to begin everything--except for
the even goofier "title."

> ?????? many more Scooters
>
> my name is \/|/\GR/\S $().95B/nD0SE
>
> in 1822 C|/\LISM $2.O()2/g|)0SE
>
> in 1900 } {EN|C/\LK $().91t/z|)OSE

I think it lacks what I just called an ubergestalt in my blog, but I think a
poet sensitive to what language can do that it wasn't doing a hundred years
ago could learn from it, perhaps even work a superior poem out of it.
There's certainly more to it than Billy McKuen's wet dog poem.

--Bob G.




From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Mar  3 20:52:23 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 20:52:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <014101c40188$da9d04c0$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net> <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com> <20040303195620.F74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <014101c40188$da9d04c0$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <94C6E99E-6D7E-11D8-8D9E-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Mar 3, 2004, at 8:33 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> ago could learn from it, perhaps even work a superior poem out of it.
> There's certainly more to it than Billy McKuen's wet dog poem.

Bob, I'm no particular fan of Collins, but I truly hope you're just 
joking to make a point.



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Mar  3 20:55:09 2004
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 01:55:09 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net> <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <006f01c4018b$b9cf0290$a1be8051@MyPC>

mehitabel.

Robin
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Mar  4 00:12:13 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 23:12:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Catpoetry
Message-ID: <BC6C16CD.7250%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Waiting for *It*

My cat jumps to the windowsill
and sits there still as a jug.
He's waiting for me, but I cannot be
coming, for I am in the room.

His snout, a gloomy V of patience,
pokes out into the sun.
The funnels of his ears expect
to be poured full of my footsteps.

*It*, the electric moment, a sweet
mouse, will appear; at his gray
eye's edge I'll be coming home
if he sits on the window-ledge.

*It* is here, I say, and call him
to my lap.  Not a hair
in the gap of his ear moves.
HIs clay gaze stays steady.

That solemn snout says:  *It*
is what is about to happen, not
what is already here.

--May Swenson. *New & Selected Things Taking Place*, 1978.
___________________


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Mar  4 00:51:23 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 23:51:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Catpoetry II
Message-ID: <BC6C1FFB.7256%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A Rabbit As King Of The Ghosts

The difficulty to think at the end of day,
When the shapeless shadow covers the sun
And nothing is left except light on your fur?-

There was the cat slopping its milk all day,
Fat cat, red tongue, green mind, white milk
And August the most peaceful month.

To be, in the grass, in the peacefullest time,
Without that monument of cat,
The cat forgotten on the moon;

And to feel that the light is a rabbit-light
In which everything is meant for you
And nothing need be explained;

Then there is nothing to think of. It comes of itself;
And east rushes west and west rushes down,
No matter. The grass is full

And full of yourself. The trees around are for you,
The whole of the wideness of night is for you,
A self that touches all edges,

You become a self that fills the four corners of night.
The red cat hides away in the fur-light
And there you are humped high, humped up,

You are humped higher and higher, black as stone?-
You sit with your head like a carving in space
And the little green cat is a bug in the grass.

Wallace Stevens


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar  4 06:13:31 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 06:13:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net> <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040303192426.D74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <54685028-6D76-11D8-A021-000393C29586@mac.com> <20040303195620.F74245@kpaul.spinweb.net> <014101c40188$da9d04c0$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <94C6E99E-6D7E-11D8-8D9E-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <004101c401d9$bc04d1e0$45efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > ago could learn from it, perhaps even work a superior poem out of it.
> > There's certainly more to it than Billy McKuen's wet dog poem.
>
> Bob, I'm no particular fan of Collins, but I truly hope you're just
> joking to make a point.

Well, partly, I guess--the found poem puts me in one of  my
buzzer-territories, comparing a poem's value to poets versus its value to
readers.  An extremely difficult chore which I tend to carry out pretty
subjectively, almost always over-valuing the former, under-valuing the
latter.  That's because almost everyone else does the opposite.  This found
poem does interesting things with the language, and even says amusing things
about commerce, about shady internet commerce where a price suddenly dips
downward into obvious wrongness, with a zero turned into opposed parens
enclosing, imprisoning . . . nothing.  Put it this way: as a critic, I don't
feel it would take me any reflection at all to say everything anyone could
say about the Collins observation.  It says what it says, using standard
devices.  I'm still trying to figure out just why the found poem appeals to
me, though.

--Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar  4 08:20:00 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 08:20:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wet dogs
In-Reply-To: <20040303155753.52526.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <00db01c4012f$692e7700$b50a9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <4046E6B0.3949.155CF5@localhost>

> > Someone said the world is divided into two kinds of
> > people - dog people and
> > cat people.

> However, I've also heard it said that the world is
> actually divided into these two types of people:
> Video Game People
> Pinball Machine People

I think it was Robert Benchley who said that the world is divided 
into two kinds of people: those who divide the world into two kinds 
of people, and those who do not.





From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar  4 09:21:03 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 09:21:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <004101c401d9$bc04d1e0$45efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4046F4FF.28959.4D42C0@localhost>

On 4 Mar 2004 at 6:13, Bob Grumman wrote:
> ... the found poem puts me in one of  my
> buzzer-territories, comparing a poem's value to poets versus its value
> to readers.  An extremely difficult chore which I tend to carry out
> pretty subjectively ...<

What happened to all that objectivity in the taxonomy of poetry, 
there, Bob?






From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  4 10:52:02 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 07:52:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cat Poetry III
Message-ID: <20040304155202.49783.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com>

A Theory of Prosody

When Nellie, my old pussy
cat, was still in her prime,
she would sit behind me
as I wrote, and when the line
got too long she'd reach
one sudden black foreleg down
and paw at the moving hand,
the offensive one. The first
time she drew blood I learned
it was poetic to end
a line anywhere to keep her
quiet. After all, many morn-
ings she'd gotten to the chair
long before I was even up.
Those nights I couldn't sleep
she'd come and sit in my lap
to calm me. So I figured
I owed her the short cat line. 
She's dead now almost nine years,
and before that there was one
during which she faked attention
and I faked obedience.
Isn't that what it's about--
pretending there's an alert cat
who leaves nothing to chance.

--Philip Levine, from _A Walk with Tom Jefferson_


Jeff Newberry
jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar  4 16:30:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:30:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
References: <4046F4FF.28959.4D42C0@localhost>
Message-ID: <007a01c4022f$f7ded1b0$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 4 Mar 2004 at 6:13, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > ... the found poem puts me in one of  my
> > buzzer-territories, comparing a poem's value to poets versus its value
> > to readers.  An extremely difficult chore which I tend to carry out
> > pretty subjectively ...<
>
> What happened to all that objectivity in the taxonomy of poetry,
> there, Bob?

1. Taxonomies classify, they don't evaluate.
2. I often operate outside my taxonomy when writing about poetry.

And that's all I'll be saying to you, Marcus, because otherwise I'll start
describing what you are and James will get annoyed with me.

--Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar  4 16:37:30 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 16:37:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <007a01c4022f$f7ded1b0$39efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40475B4A.12044.1DCD88F@localhost>

> > On 4 Mar 2004 at 6:13, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > ... the found poem puts me in one of  my
> > > buzzer-territories, comparing a poem's value to poets versus its
> > > value to readers.  An extremely difficult chore which I tend to
> > > carry out pretty subjectively ...<

> > What happened to all that objectivity in the taxonomy of poetry,
> > there, Bob?
 
On 4 Mar 2004 at 16:30, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 1. Taxonomies classify, they don't evaluate.<

There can be no classification without evaluation unless your 
taxonomy is merely a congeries and not a taxonomy at all.

> 2. I often operate outside my taxonomy when writing about poetry.

What's the point? What's the good of a taxonomy that one can operate 
outside of with perfect comfort and reasonableness? Do you think you 
would hear a biologist say that he or she often operates outside the 
common biological taxonomy when he or she writes about biology? No, 
of course not -- not unless they're writing science fiction or 
fantasy. Is your writing about poetry outside your taxonomy merely 
fantasy?
 
> And that's all I'll be saying to you, Marcus, because otherwise I'll
> start describing what you are and James will get annoyed with me.<

This, too, is name-calling. It's saying "Remember what I called you 
last time? Well, you're still that." Is this really the best you can 
do to put your ideas forward and support them?
 




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Mar  4 18:22:04 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:22:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] found poem - SPAM by Daren Enriquez
In-Reply-To: <40475B4A.12044.1DCD88F@localhost>
References: <40475B4A.12044.1DCD88F@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040304181806.A56625@kpaul.spinweb.net>

ahem. this was found 'poem' not found 'argument' ;)

don't want to go down that road again, although i sidestepped it last time
around.

a good poem will have you thinking about it hours/days/years afterwards. a
popular poem will end up on a hallmark card.

there was just something about this spam that caused me to stop and try to
'decipher' it. did i find a meaning? no, but i can see how different
people could add different meanings to it.

i think it's a good base/foundation for a poem, laid word by word by human
after a machine created the 'bricks' of the poem.

 -kpaul

http://www.mallasch.com/mug/

p.s. the turtle poem experiement is plodding along. ;)


On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Marcus Bales wrote:

> > > On 4 Mar 2004 at 6:13, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > ... the found poem puts me in one of  my
> > > > buzzer-territories, comparing a poem's value to poets versus its
> > > > value to readers.  An extremely difficult chore which I tend to
> > > > carry out pretty subjectively ...<
>
> > > What happened to all that objectivity in the taxonomy of poetry,
> > > there, Bob?
>
> On 4 Mar 2004 at 16:30, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > 1. Taxonomies classify, they don't evaluate.<
>
> There can be no classification without evaluation unless your
> taxonomy is merely a congeries and not a taxonomy at all.
>
> > 2. I often operate outside my taxonomy when writing about poetry.
>
> What's the point? What's the good of a taxonomy that one can operate
> outside of with perfect comfort and reasonableness? Do you think you
> would hear a biologist say that he or she often operates outside the
> common biological taxonomy when he or she writes about biology? No,
> of course not -- not unless they're writing science fiction or
> fantasy. Is your writing about poetry outside your taxonomy merely
> fantasy?
>
> > And that's all I'll be saying to you, Marcus, because otherwise I'll
> > start describing what you are and James will get annoyed with me.<
>
> This, too, is name-calling. It's saying "Remember what I called you
> last time? Well, you're still that." Is this really the best you can
> do to put your ideas forward and support them?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Mar  4 19:16:09 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 19:16:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
References: <8A8E3E72-6D47-11D8-A150-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <002901c40247$0fab3ab0$510a9942@Helen>

Post one for us - should be fun - we can declare it national cat week
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS


> > At 12:01 PM 3/3/2004 -0500, Helen wrote:
> >
> > Anyone up for an anthology of cat poems?
> 
> If anyone's editing such, let me know.  I have far too many of them, & 
> have to ration them, a few per book.
> 
> Wendy, owned by cats
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> 
> 
> I believe that if it were left to artists to choose their own labels, 
> most would choose none.
> Ben Shahn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Thu Mar  4 20:40:14 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:40:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
In-Reply-To: <002901c40247$0fab3ab0$510a9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <0CB41509-6E46-11D8-9606-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 07:16 PM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> Post one for us - should be fun - we can declare it national cat week

I'm not sure "fun" is the word, Helen, but here's one.

Old Cat

works the kitchen,
even on weekends rolls her fine
bones over sagging linoleum,

listens for mice between the Bengal
stove and the sink, her sitting-not-doing,
her practice.

The cat years multiply on her.
She listens times seven and time breaks into
its slower voices:

tremolo steam,
tidal breath of the human,
stutter of mouse heart somewhere

behind the white noise of traffic, the whiter
wind, the laboring furnace.  Quiet, the house
swept empty of relations,

and quiet the lift of her head when I bend,
quiet her eyes around slit lenses
splintered jade, and seen raw

in the moment of her gaze,
quiet for once my face arriving there
in the brain of cat.

Even dead I will have more words than that
mask carved out from all that I want,
from nothing I want to say.

--
Wendy Battin, (from _Little Apocalypse_)

-------------------------------------------------------------



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Mar  4 22:38:37 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:38:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
Message-ID: <168270-2200435533837750@M2W044.mail2web.com>

Thanks, Wendy.

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:40:14 -0500
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS


On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 07:16 PM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> Post one for us - should be fun - we can declare it national cat week

I'm not sure "fun" is the word, Helen, but here's one.

Old Cat

works the kitchen,
even on weekends rolls her fine
bones over sagging linoleum,

listens for mice between the Bengal
stove and the sink, her sitting-not-doing,
her practice.

The cat years multiply on her.
She listens times seven and time breaks into
its slower voices:

tremolo steam,
tidal breath of the human,
stutter of mouse heart somewhere

behind the white noise of traffic, the whiter
wind, the laboring furnace.  Quiet, the house
swept empty of relations,

and quiet the lift of her head when I bend,
quiet her eyes around slit lenses
splintered jade, and seen raw

in the moment of her gaze,
quiet for once my face arriving there
in the brain of cat.

Even dead I will have more words than that
mask carved out from all that I want,
from nothing I want to say.

--
Wendy Battin, (from _Little Apocalypse_)

-------------------------------------------------------------



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan

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New-Poetry mailing list
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar  5 06:22:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:22:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
References: <168270-2200435533837750@M2W044.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c402a4$2cd53980$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Thanks, Wendy.

Yes, a good one--it need not fear any found spam poem's competition.

--Bob G.   



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Mar  5 07:43:15 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:43:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c402a4$2cd53980$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <168270-2200435533837750@M2W044.mail2web.com>
 <00ad01c402a4$2cd53980$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20040305074303.D65724@kpaul.spinweb.net>

heh. agreed ;)

-kpaul

http://www.mallasch.com/mug/

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Bob Grumman wrote:

> > Thanks, Wendy.
>
> Yes, a good one--it need not fear any found spam poem's competition.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Mar  5 10:57:14 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:57:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] One more dog
Message-ID: <BC6DFF7A.72A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Now That My Dog?s Human


For years she had pulled on my attention,
undeveloped film waiting in a camera.

Now Addie is a lively second grade teacher
who drives a red pickup. She puts her
whole self in, puts her whole self out.

She has those same eyes, like my dead uncle?s,
almost Welsh, upward turning, beseeching,
worried, watching a muddy sea, considerate.

We?re easy together, we have the loose fit
of second-day socks. I?m big sister, not boss.

I taught her the geography of a bubblebath,
the plain joy of getting clean in the morning.

She taught me to eat faster, lie on the sunny part
of the rug, approach sleeping strangers in the park.
She won?t renounce the taste of tennis ball.

She?s lost her otherness, most of it.
It fell off easy like a ripe berry.
She catches peanuts in her mouth expertly.

And I ask her what did I do
in those electric-foot dreams,

and what was she thinking
when she came when I called,
all hunkered down and avid?

Her ears still perk up
at the tiny click of my smile.

    --Tina Kelley.  *The Gospel of Galore*.  Word Press, 2002.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Mar  5 11:38:56 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:38:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
References: <0CB41509-6E46-11D8-9606-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <001c01c402d0$5b479ed0$260b9942@Helen>

You're right - not fun, but a wonderful exploration of the connections
between humans and their pets -

no one in the human world loves you like a pet does
h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS


> On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 07:16 PM, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > Post one for us - should be fun - we can declare it national cat week
>
> I'm not sure "fun" is the word, Helen, but here's one.
>
> Old Cat
>
> works the kitchen,
> even on weekends rolls her fine
> bones over sagging linoleum,
>
> listens for mice between the Bengal
> stove and the sink, her sitting-not-doing,
> her practice.
>
> The cat years multiply on her.
> She listens times seven and time breaks into
> its slower voices:
>
> tremolo steam,
> tidal breath of the human,
> stutter of mouse heart somewhere
>
> behind the white noise of traffic, the whiter
> wind, the laboring furnace.  Quiet, the house
> swept empty of relations,
>
> and quiet the lift of her head when I bend,
> quiet her eyes around slit lenses
> splintered jade, and seen raw
>
> in the moment of her gaze,
> quiet for once my face arriving there
> in the brain of cat.
>
> Even dead I will have more words than that
> mask carved out from all that I want,
> from nothing I want to say.
>
> --
> Wendy Battin, (from _Little Apocalypse_)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> ----------------------------
> How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
> followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
> pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
>              -Tung-shan
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Mar  5 11:40:06 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:40:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] One more dog
Message-ID: <1ec.1a9b9ab1.2d7a0766@aol.com>

Two of my own dogs, part of my Antonia series, are posted on the Virginia 
Quarterly Review website:

Antonia, Pearl Fisher

http://www.virginia.edu/vqr/viewmedia.php/prmMID/8475

and 

My Antonia

http://www.virginia.edu/vqr/viewmedia.php/prmMID/8476

Jeffrey Levine


In a message dated 3/5/2004 10:55:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


> Now That My Dog?s Human
> 
> 
> For years she had pulled on my attention,
> undeveloped film waiting in a camera.
> 
> Now Addie is a lively second grade teacher
> who drives a red pickup. She puts her
> whole self in, puts her whole self out.
> 
> She has those same eyes, like my dead uncle?s,
> almost Welsh, upward turning, beseeching,
> worried, watching a muddy sea, considerate.
> 
> We?re easy together, we have the loose fit
> of second-day socks. I?m big sister, not boss.
> 
> I taught her the geography of a bubblebath,
> the plain joy of getting clean in the morning.
> 
> She taught me to eat faster, lie on the sunny part
> of the rug, approach sleeping strangers in the park.
> She won?t renounce the taste of tennis ball.
> 
> She?s lost her otherness, most of it.
> It fell off easy like a ripe berry.
> She catches peanuts in her mouth expertly.
> 
> And I ask her what did I do
> in those electric-foot dreams,
> 
> and what was she thinking
> when she came when I called,
> all hunkered down and avid?
> 
> Her ears still perk up
> at the tiny click of my smile.
> 
>     --Tina Kelley.  *The Gospel of Galore*.  Word Press, 2002.
> 
> 

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Mar  5 12:02:29 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:02:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Even more dogs
Message-ID: <BC6E0EC5.72AC%grahamd@ripon.edu>

What the hell, one of my own. . . .



THE DOGS IN DUTCH PAINTINGS
    

How shall I not love them, snoozing
right through the Annunciation?  They inhabit
the outskirts of every importance, sprawl
dead center in each oblivious household.

They're digging at fleas or snapping at scraps,
dozing with noble abandon while a boy
bells their tails.  Often they present their rumps
in the foreground of some martyrdom.

What Christ could lean so unconcernedly
against a table leg, the feast above continuing?
Could the Virgin in her joy match this grace
as a hound sagely ponders an upturned turtle?

No scholar at his huge book will capture
my eye so well as the skinny haunches,
the frazzled tails and serene optimism
of the least of these mutts, curled

in the corners of the world's dazzlement.

--David Graham.  *Stutter Monk*.  Flume Press, 2000.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Mar  5 12:03:09 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:03:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] One more dog
References: <BC6DFF7A.72A5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00bf01c402d3$bca56f10$260b9942@Helen>

a dogku

he sat, spoke,
begged, heeled, rolled over,
played dead
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:57 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] One more dog


> Now That My Dog?s Human
>
>
> For years she had pulled on my attention,
> undeveloped film waiting in a camera.
>
> Now Addie is a lively second grade teacher
> who drives a red pickup. She puts her
> whole self in, puts her whole self out.
>
> She has those same eyes, like my dead uncle?s,
> almost Welsh, upward turning, beseeching,
> worried, watching a muddy sea, considerate.
>
> We?re easy together, we have the loose fit
> of second-day socks. I?m big sister, not boss.
>
> I taught her the geography of a bubblebath,
> the plain joy of getting clean in the morning.
>
> She taught me to eat faster, lie on the sunny part
> of the rug, approach sleeping strangers in the park.
> She won?t renounce the taste of tennis ball.
>
> She?s lost her otherness, most of it.
> It fell off easy like a ripe berry.
> She catches peanuts in her mouth expertly.
>
> And I ask her what did I do
> in those electric-foot dreams,
>
> and what was she thinking
> when she came when I called,
> all hunkered down and avid?
>
> Her ears still perk up
> at the tiny click of my smile.
>
>     --Tina Kelley.  *The Gospel of Galore*.  Word Press, 2002.
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Mar  5 13:03:08 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:03:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Even more dogs
In-Reply-To: <BC6E0EC5.72AC%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <40487A8C.30390.C5A70@localhost>

On 5 Mar 2004 at 11:02, David Graham wrote:
> What the hell, one of my own. . . .
> THE DOGS IN DUTCH PAINTINGS
> How shall I not love them, snoozing
> right through the Annunciation?  ...

Okay, then, one of mine:

The Fall Comes

All you see that moment is the sheen
Reflected off his golden coat, his tongue
A noisy comma added in between
Two panting moments, then taken from among
Them in the next; his clear and following eyes
Light up unshaded in the summer light
That fills the western window like goodbyes
Fill lyric verse; and all the world is bright
As those two quivering tears that stand unshed
As she takes in what you are shocked you've said.

And then the tears are gone: her hand around
The champagne flute is steady, and the soft sound
She makes to call the dog is calm. She turns, 
They leave, the fall comes, and your life burns.






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar  5 13:47:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:47:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dog Haiku
References: <0CB41509-6E46-11D8-9606-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <001c01c402d0$5b479ed0$260b9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <00b701c402e2$5770c810$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Here From the 3 February entry to my blog) is another specimen from the
book, this one by Issa, one of the Big Three of Japanese haiku with Buson
and Basho:


                          visiting the graves

                          trotting on to show the way . . .

                          old family dog

--Bob G.








From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Mar  5 14:10:17 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:10:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dog Haiku
References: <0CB41509-6E46-11D8-9606-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <001c01c402d0$5b479ed0$260b9942@Helen> <00b701c402e2$5770c810$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <012401c402e5$7f49dd10$260b9942@Helen>

Wait a minute - have we found something we all agree on?  Dog and cat poems?

Another question:

Some of you are in the Buffalo group - what is the "New Brutalism?"  Can
someone post a sample poem?

(Would that be when you kill a dog or a cat in your poem)?

The Senecas had a cermonial rite - when they fed and caressed a white dog
and then sacrificed it.  Old Jerry Rothenberg poem which I can't find.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:47 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dog Haiku


> Here From the 3 February entry to my blog) is another specimen from the
> book, this one by Issa, one of the Big Three of Japanese haiku with Buson
> and Basho:
>
>
>                           visiting the graves
>
>                           trotting on to show the way . . .
>
>                           old family dog
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Mar  5 14:22:05 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:22:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Brutalism"??? - cat poem
In-Reply-To: <012401c402e5$7f49dd10$260b9942@Helen>
References: <0CB41509-6E46-11D8-9606-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
 <001c01c402d0$5b479ed0$260b9942@Helen> <00b701c402e2$5770c810$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
 <012401c402e5$7f49dd10$260b9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <20040305142110.R15204@kpaul.spinweb.net>

CAT-PIE.

 WHILE he is mark'd by vision clear

 Who fathoms Nature's treasures,
               The man may follow, void of fear,

 Who her proportions measures.

 Though for one mortal, it is true,

 These trades may both be fitted,
               Yet, that the things themselves are two

 Must always be admitted.

 Once on a time there lived a cook

 Whose skill was past disputing,
               Who in his head a fancy took

 To try his luck at shooting.

 So, gun in hand, he sought a spot

 Where stores of game were breeding,
               And there ere long a cat he shot

 That on young birds was feeding.

 This cat he fancied was a hare,

 Forming a judgment hasty,
               So served it up for people's fare,

 Well-spiced and in a pasty.

 Yet many a guest with wrath was fill'd

 (All who had noses tender):
               The cat that's by the sportsman kill'd

 No cook a hare can render.

 1810.
-Goethe

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

> Wait a minute - have we found something we all agree on?  Dog and cat poems?
>
> Another question:
>
> Some of you are in the Buffalo group - what is the "New Brutalism?"  Can
> someone post a sample poem?
>
> (Would that be when you kill a dog or a cat in your poem)?
>
> The Senecas had a cermonial rite - when they fed and caressed a white dog
> and then sacrificed it.  Old Jerry Rothenberg poem which I can't find.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:47 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Dog Haiku
>
>
> > Here From the 3 February entry to my blog) is another specimen from the
> > book, this one by Issa, one of the Big Three of Japanese haiku with Buson
> > and Basho:
> >
> >
> >                           visiting the graves
> >
> >                           trotting on to show the way . . .
> >
> >                           old family dog
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Mar  5 14:33:56 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:33:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dog Haiku
Message-ID: <2655448.1078515236178.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Friday, March 05, 2004, at 02:10PM, Helen Ruggieri <hruggier at localnet.com> wrote:

>Wait a minute - have we found something we all agree on?  Dog and cat poems?
>
>Another question:
>
>Some of you are in the Buffalo group - what is the "New Brutalism?"  Can
>someone post a sample poem?
>
>(Would that be when you kill a dog or a cat in your poem)?
>

Look here: http://thenewbrutalism.blogspot.com/ 


It hasn't been upodated in a while, but the archives are there and the links on the left are to the blogs of some of those involved (limetree has moved here: http://limetree.ksilem.com/ ).  It was a kind of joke, really--nothing to do (that I know of) with the New Brutalism in architecture (Le Corbusier, etc).
-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Mar  5 15:11:24 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:11:24 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dog Haiku
References: <0CB41509-6E46-11D8-9606-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <001c01c402d0$5b479ed0$260b9942@Helen> <00b701c402e2$5770c810$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <001b01c402ee$08ef50b0$281c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Here's one from me, especially done for the occasion (be prepared to yawn,
and no, I didn't read about the white dog Helen is talking of, I was writing
this:)



The dog I've never had is tired at my feet

we've played the entire day up on Alpine fields

linking low rays of sun & greeting 'morrow's full moon



proud bold elegant & smart jumps over boulders

swims in the dark, my Irish Red Setter's coat's so soft

he sniffs snakes danger eagles & rats his tail upright sight



on the alert, he's my brother, soul, my private spy my

German Shepherd guides me through protecting our home

from the blue sky narrowed to two openings which focused into

the eyes of the white dog who led me from my dream back into here,

again.





Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Is all that what we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?
Edgar Allan Poe






From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 7:47 PM


> Here From the 3 February entry to my blog) is another specimen from the
> book, this one by Issa, one of the Big Three of Japanese haiku with Buson
> and Basho:
>
>
>                           visiting the graves
>
>                           trotting on to show the way . . .
>
>                           old family dog
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Mar  5 22:39:22 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:39:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] One dog, one cat
Message-ID: <99610-2200436633922465@M2W097.mail2web.com>

INTELLIGENCE

The dog took notes
when they talked??he?s chasing
rabbits in his sleep,? they 
said, but it was shorthand.
He was getting it all down.

He never got the point of jokes.
He had a hard time with laughing.
It sounded like sneezing, but the
pitch faltered, and there was no reason
for it, and it went on too long.

But he understood grunting, and the 
rump-rump-rump of sex.
He could stay and listen, as long as 
he pretended not to notice,
and kept his nose off the bed.

Most of all, he was reliable
within his limits. Mornings,
when the master had left for work,
he?d mark a few trees for show,
then come straight to give his report.




INFELICITY

In the morning
I find two
cats on either side
of a sliding glass door
a mirror image

but the cat
on the inside has
a saturnine halo
drifting around a
pug face like

a harlequin dog
dodging the police in
Commedia
dell? arte
counterfeit menace

cloaking close-locked evil
the outside cat
is furtive
but full of purpose
might not be the best trade

but the lady?s
still asleep
I open the door
they pass through each other
with practiced ease


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Mar  5 22:45:49 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:45:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Even more dogs
Message-ID: <199120-2200436634549628@M2W085.mail2web.com>

I've read this one...always liked it,


Original Message:
-----------------
From: David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 11:02:29 -0600
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Even more dogs


What the hell, one of my own. . . .



THE DOGS IN DUTCH PAINTINGS
    

How shall I not love them, snoozing
right through the Annunciation?  They inhabit
the outskirts of every importance, sprawl
dead center in each oblivious household.

They're digging at fleas or snapping at scraps,
dozing with noble abandon while a boy
bells their tails.  Often they present their rumps
in the foreground of some martyrdom.

What Christ could lean so unconcernedly
against a table leg, the feast above continuing?
Could the Virgin in her joy match this grace
as a hound sagely ponders an upturned turtle?

No scholar at his huge book will capture
my eye so well as the skinny haunches,
the frazzled tails and serene optimism
of the least of these mutts, curled

in the corners of the world's dazzlement.

--David Graham.  *Stutter Monk*.  Flume Press, 2000.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Fri Mar  5 23:35:33 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:35:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Even More Dogs
Message-ID: <20040306043533.A4A82393A@sitemail.everyone.net>

Tad, et All [New-Poetry],

One remembered dog. . .


Alexander

   You were nothing but a mutt,
   but I loved you, Alexander,
   as a mottled wrinkled pup
   chasing your tail in circles
   'cross the yard that you,
   later disappeared from
   on nightly forays
   siring puppies of your own.
   Returning home after a night
   on the town with some bitch in heat
   like a sailor with a dame in every port,
   inspiring poetry like your name-sake,
   Alexander, the Great, conquering your enemies
   in dog-fights that would do Snoopy's Red Baron proud.
   Until one day, you never came home. I prayed for your
   safe return that day in church, and every day,
   for three long months, the dog-days of summer.
   Then you returned, limping home, one ear chewed off,
   one eye swollen shut by a massive tumor on your jaw.
   Dad said, "We have to put him down, son,he's in pain."
   He handed the 20-gauge silently to me, then, finally. said,
   "Take him to the open field across the way. We will bury him
   on the hill." I prayed again that day after Alex was,
   mercifully, shot-gunned-dead,over a make-shift cross,
   above his grave. You were nothing but a mutt, Alexander,
   but I loved you.

    ? 2000, by Robert R.Cobb



Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Mar  6 00:01:20 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:01:20 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Even More Dogs
Message-ID: <200403060445.i264jPpw052224@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

"HE says his dog is his best friend; I say my cat is mine."---

Continuous Peasant, 2003

----------
>From: CobbCoStudioArts <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Even More Dogs
>Date: Fri, Mar 5, 2004, 8:35 PM
>

> Tad, et All [New-Poetry],
>
> One remembered dog. . .
>
>
> Alexander
>
>    You were nothing but a mutt,
>    but I loved you, Alexander,
>    as a mottled wrinkled pup
>    chasing your tail in circles
>    'cross the yard that you,
>    later disappeared from
>    on nightly forays
>    siring puppies of your own.
>    Returning home after a night
>    on the town with some bitch in heat
>    like a sailor with a dame in every port,
>    inspiring poetry like your name-sake,
>    Alexander, the Great, conquering your enemies
>    in dog-fights that would do Snoopy's Red Baron proud.
>    Until one day, you never came home. I prayed for your
>    safe return that day in church, and every day,
>    for three long months, the dog-days of summer.
>    Then you returned, limping home, one ear chewed off,
>    one eye swollen shut by a massive tumor on your jaw.
>    Dad said, "We have to put him down, son,he's in pain."
>    He handed the 20-gauge silently to me, then, finally. said,
>    "Take him to the open field across the way. We will bury him
>    on the hill." I prayed again that day after Alex was,
>    mercifully, shot-gunned-dead,over a make-shift cross,
>    above his grave. You were nothing but a mutt, Alexander,
>    but I loved you.
>
>     ?? 2000, by Robert R.Cobb
>
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known
> mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Mar  6 11:11:53 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 08:11:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
Message-ID: <20040306161153.CEC55396A@sitemail.everyone.net>

[New-Poetry] lovers,

I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in 
the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My 
award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in 
our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool 
of 200.

Internet Heaven

Dear Lord of All above,
beyond infernal, etheral space,
through Your eternal love
please prepare me a place,
where I may receive and send
e-mails as I rest in peace.
Keep me connected, no end,
if I may pray to be so bold,
forever is far too long to be on hold.

I am just an Internet junky,
I confess that I'm addicted
to universal relay locator keys,
and world wide web, unexpurgated.
Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
if ever You may deem me enough educated,
to confide just what Your Addy's worth.

Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
from typos and sins of omission, tasks
made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
No spamming, no channel jamming,
no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.

No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
what with other plights demanding Your attention,
like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.

I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
upon my private business affairs, tracking
my life movements and moments telescopically.

God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.

 ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb 


Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com



From poemlady at cox.net  Sat Mar  6 11:17:00 2004
From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:17:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
References: <20040306161153.CEC55396A@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <000701c40396$74587b30$6c41e544@Zoom>

Congratulations, Robert!
Audrey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CobbCoStudioArts" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"


> [New-Poetry] lovers,
>
> I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in
> the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My
> award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
> poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in
> our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
> subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool
> of 200.
>
> Internet Heaven
>
> Dear Lord of All above,
> beyond infernal, etheral space,
> through Your eternal love
> please prepare me a place,
> where I may receive and send
> e-mails as I rest in peace.
> Keep me connected, no end,
> if I may pray to be so bold,
> forever is far too long to be on hold.
>
> I am just an Internet junky,
> I confess that I'm addicted
> to universal relay locator keys,
> and world wide web, unexpurgated.
> Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
> if ever You may deem me enough educated,
> to confide just what Your Addy's worth.
>
> Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
> I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
> from typos and sins of omission, tasks
> made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
> And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
> that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
> 3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
> No spamming, no channel jamming,
> no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
> No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
> no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.
>
> No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
> no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
> nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
> Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
> what with other plights demanding Your attention,
> like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
> pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.
>
> I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
> God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
> nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
> upon my private business affairs, tracking
> my life movements and moments telescopically.
>
> God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
> what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
> I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
> to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.
>
>  ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Mar  6 11:29:14 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 08:29:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
Message-ID: <20040306162914.D7B95E4B9@sitemail.everyone.net>

Audrey,

Thanks!

Bob


Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com



--- "Audrey Friedman" <poemlady at cox.net> wrote:
Congratulations, Robert!
Audrey

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CobbCoStudioArts" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"


> [New-Poetry] lovers,
>
> I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in
> the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My
> award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
> poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in
> our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
> subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool
> of 200.
>
> Internet Heaven
>
> Dear Lord of All above,
> beyond infernal, etheral space,
> through Your eternal love
> please prepare me a place,
> where I may receive and send
> e-mails as I rest in peace.
> Keep me connected, no end,
> if I may pray to be so bold,
> forever is far too long to be on hold.
>
> I am just an Internet junky,
> I confess that I'm addicted
> to universal relay locator keys,
> and world wide web, unexpurgated.
> Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
> if ever You may deem me enough educated,
> to confide just what Your Addy's worth.
>
> Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
> I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
> from typos and sins of omission, tasks
> made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
> And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
> that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
> 3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
> No spamming, no channel jamming,
> no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
> No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
> no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.
>
> No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
> no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
> nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
> Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
> what with other plights demanding Your attention,
> like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
> pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.
>
> I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
> God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
> nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
> upon my private business affairs, tracking
> my life movements and moments telescopically.
>
> God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
> what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
> I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
> to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.
>
>  ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From poemlady at cox.net  Sat Mar  6 11:32:43 2004
From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:32:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
References: <20040306162914.D7B95E4B9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <003e01c40398$a6c7f0d0$6c41e544@Zoom>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CobbCoStudioArts" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"


> Audrey,
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
>
>
> --- "Audrey Friedman" <poemlady at cox.net> wrote:
> Congratulations, Robert!
> Audrey
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "CobbCoStudioArts" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 11:11 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
>
>
> > [New-Poetry] lovers,
> >
> > I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in
> > the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My
> > award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
> > poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in
> > our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
> > subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool
> > of 200.
> >
> > Internet Heaven
> >
> > Dear Lord of All above,
> > beyond infernal, etheral space,
> > through Your eternal love
> > please prepare me a place,
> > where I may receive and send
> > e-mails as I rest in peace.
> > Keep me connected, no end,
> > if I may pray to be so bold,
> > forever is far too long to be on hold.
> >
> > I am just an Internet junky,
> > I confess that I'm addicted
> > to universal relay locator keys,
> > and world wide web, unexpurgated.
> > Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
> > if ever You may deem me enough educated,
> > to confide just what Your Addy's worth.
> >
> > Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
> > I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
> > from typos and sins of omission, tasks
> > made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
> > And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
> > that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
> > 3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
> > No spamming, no channel jamming,
> > no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
> > No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
> > no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.
> >
> > No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
> > no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
> > nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
> > Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
> > what with other plights demanding Your attention,
> > like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
> > pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.
> >
> > I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
> > God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
> > nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
> > upon my private business affairs, tracking
> > my life movements and moments telescopically.
> >
> > God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
> > what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
> > I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
> > to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.
> >
> >  ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb
> >
> >
> > Poetry Catamaran
> >
> > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known
> mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
> >
> > Robert R. Cobb
> > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> > http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Mar  6 11:33:26 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 17:33:26 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
References: <20040306161153.CEC55396A@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <01af01c40398$c066c750$40607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A wonderful poem, I am also an Internet addict, god in his greatness will
forgive me.

About spams and such, I am using at the moment:
the Norton Personal Firewall 2003 that I was able to find free of charge on
the net and download (cracked I know thanks to the good soul), and a student
evaluated that my efforts were worth his giving me a NortonSystemWorks 2003
in which there is absolutely everything, from the Utilities to the AntiVirus
and so and such. To say that I receive no more Casinos, the New York Times
is all nice and clean, no unexpected windows piling up everywhere, a true
marvel. No, I am not paid by Norton, but with me it works. Affection,

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

The youth walks up to the white horse, to put its halter on
and the horse looks at him in silence.
They are so silent, they are in another world.
The White Horse, D.H.Lawrence

From: "CobbCoStudioArts" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 5:11 PM


> [New-Poetry] lovers,
>
> I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in
> the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My
> award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
> poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in
> our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
> subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool
> of 200.
>
> Internet Heaven
>
> Dear Lord of All above,
> beyond infernal, etheral space,
> through Your eternal love
> please prepare me a place,
> where I may receive and send
> e-mails as I rest in peace.
> Keep me connected, no end,
> if I may pray to be so bold,
> forever is far too long to be on hold.
>
> I am just an Internet junky,
> I confess that I'm addicted
> to universal relay locator keys,
> and world wide web, unexpurgated.
> Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
> if ever You may deem me enough educated,
> to confide just what Your Addy's worth.
>
> Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
> I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
> from typos and sins of omission, tasks
> made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
> And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
> that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
> 3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
> No spamming, no channel jamming,
> no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
> No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
> no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.
>
> No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
> no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
> nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
> Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
> what with other plights demanding Your attention,
> like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
> pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.
>
> I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
> God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
> nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
> upon my private business affairs, tracking
> my life movements and moments telescopically.
>
> God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
> what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
> I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
> to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.
>
>  ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Mar  6 12:15:11 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 09:15:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
Message-ID: <20040306171511.6C3C13971@sitemail.everyone.net>

Anny,

Thanks for the compliments and tech advice.  

Bob


Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com



--- "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
A wonderful poem, I am also an Internet addict, god in his greatness will
forgive me.

About spams and such, I am using at the moment:
the Norton Personal Firewall 2003 that I was able to find free of charge on
the net and download (cracked I know thanks to the good soul), and a student
evaluated that my efforts were worth his giving me a NortonSystemWorks 2003
in which there is absolutely everything, from the Utilities to the AntiVirus
and so and such. To say that I receive no more Casinos, the New York Times
is all nice and clean, no unexpected windows piling up everywhere, a true
marvel. No, I am not paid by Norton, but with me it works. Affection,

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

The youth walks up to the white horse, to put its halter on
and the horse looks at him in silence.
They are so silent, they are in another world.
The White Horse, D.H.Lawrence

From: "CobbCoStudioArts" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 5:11 PM


> [New-Poetry] lovers,
>
> I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in
> the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My
> award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
> poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in
> our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
> subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool
> of 200.
>
> Internet Heaven
>
> Dear Lord of All above,
> beyond infernal, etheral space,
> through Your eternal love
> please prepare me a place,
> where I may receive and send
> e-mails as I rest in peace.
> Keep me connected, no end,
> if I may pray to be so bold,
> forever is far too long to be on hold.
>
> I am just an Internet junky,
> I confess that I'm addicted
> to universal relay locator keys,
> and world wide web, unexpurgated.
> Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
> if ever You may deem me enough educated,
> to confide just what Your Addy's worth.
>
> Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
> I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
> from typos and sins of omission, tasks
> made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
> And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
> that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
> 3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
> No spamming, no channel jamming,
> no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
> No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
> no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.
>
> No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
> no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
> nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
> Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
> what with other plights demanding Your attention,
> like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
> pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.
>
> I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
> God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
> nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
> upon my private business affairs, tracking
> my life movements and moments telescopically.
>
> God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
> what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
> I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
> to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.
>
>  ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Sat Mar  6 13:51:21 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:51:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
In-Reply-To: <20040306161153.CEC55396A@sitemail.everyone.net>
References: <20040306161153.CEC55396A@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <20040306135115.V47020@kpaul.spinweb.net>

congrats.

-kpaul

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, CobbCoStudioArts wrote:

> [New-Poetry] lovers,
>
> I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in
> the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My
> award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
> poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in
> our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
> subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool
> of 200.
>
> Internet Heaven
>
> Dear Lord of All above,
> beyond infernal, etheral space,
> through Your eternal love
> please prepare me a place,
> where I may receive and send
> e-mails as I rest in peace.
> Keep me connected, no end,
> if I may pray to be so bold,
> forever is far too long to be on hold.
>
> I am just an Internet junky,
> I confess that I'm addicted
> to universal relay locator keys,
> and world wide web, unexpurgated.
> Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
> if ever You may deem me enough educated,
> to confide just what Your Addy's worth.
>
> Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
> I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
> from typos and sins of omission, tasks
> made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
> And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
> that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
> 3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
> No spamming, no channel jamming,
> no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
> No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
> no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.
>
> No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
> no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
> nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
> Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
> what with other plights demanding Your attention,
> like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
> pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.
>
> I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
> God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
> nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
> upon my private business affairs, tracking
> my life movements and moments telescopically.
>
> God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
> what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
> I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
> to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.
>
>  ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Mar  6 14:34:11 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:34:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot! "Internet Heaven"
Message-ID: <20040306193411.23F543949@sitemail.everyone.net>

kpaul,

Thank you.

Bob

Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com



--- kpaul mallasch <kpaul at mallasch.com> wrote:
congrats.

-kpaul

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, CobbCoStudioArts wrote:

> [New-Poetry] lovers,
>
> I have a toot.  My poem, "Internet Heaven", was selected as a winner in
> the "Arts Unlimited/Daily Herald writing contest, poetry category.  My
> award will be presented at a reception on Wednesday, march 10, 2004.  My
> poem, along with my photo will be published this month, next week, in
> our local newspaper, "The Daily Herald."  I doubt whether any of you are
> subscribers.  My poem was in the top three selected from an entry pool
> of 200.
>
> Internet Heaven
>
> Dear Lord of All above,
> beyond infernal, etheral space,
> through Your eternal love
> please prepare me a place,
> where I may receive and send
> e-mails as I rest in peace.
> Keep me connected, no end,
> if I may pray to be so bold,
> forever is far too long to be on hold.
>
> I am just an Internet junky,
> I confess that I'm addicted
> to universal relay locator keys,
> and world wide web, unexpurgated.
> Please, Lord, forgive me for my sins on Earth,
> if ever You may deem me enough educated,
> to confide just what Your Addy's worth.
>
> Dear Lord, if it is not too much to ask,
> I'd like a Heavenly keyboard, free
> from typos and sins of omission, tasks
> made user-friendly, designed orthopedically;
> And, a computer system, well within Your Power,
> that is secure, without cookies, nor virus, virtually
> 3D, DVD, surround sound at any given hour.
> No spamming, no channel jamming,
> no list-serve trolling, no uncontrolled flaming.
> No need for cyber-nannies, no porno-passing-hosers,
> no hackers, scamming hustlers, no pedeophile chat-room posers.
>
> No Devil, no e-mail demons, no casino scenes,
> no sweepstakes,  games of chance, nothing untoward,
> nor censored, nor monitored, filtered, all kept clean.
> Perhaps I am asking for too much from Your Word,
> what with other plights demanding Your attention,
> like famines, earthquakes, floods, and fights,
> pestilence, sanctity of life, nuclear proliferation.
>
> I am not praying for any satellite-spy-in-the-sky,
> God, You know that's not what I'm seeking,
> nor any Big Brother looking askance with one eye
> upon my private business affairs, tracking
> my life movements and moments telescopically.
>
> God, you know what's in my heart and mind,
> what's really behind words, poetically spoken,
> I put  faith in You, Lord, my convictions blind,
> to cure the world's ills, to fix all that is broken.
>
>  ? 2001, by Robert R. Cobb
>
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Mar  6 14:41:57 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:41:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Original Hollywood Squares
Message-ID: <20040306194157.409C7ACC5@sitemail.everyone.net>

Received from my Uncle Bill,
   	 
  >I f you remember The Original Hollywood Squares and its comics, this
>will
>   >bring a tear to your eyes. These great questions and answers are from
>the
>   >days when "Hollywood Squares" game show  responses were spontaneous and
>   >clever, not scripted and (often) dull as they are now. Peter Marshall
>was
>   >the host asking the questions.
>   >
>   >Q. Do female frogs croak?
>   >A. Paul Lynde: If you hold their little heads under water long enough.
>   >Q. If you're going to make a parachute jump, at least how high should
>you
>   >be?
>   >A. Charley Weaver: Three days of steady drinking should do it.
>   >Q. True or False, a pea can last as long as 5,000 years.
>   >A. George Gobel: Boy, it sure seems that way sometimes.
>   >Q. You've been having trouble going to sleep. Are you probably a man or
>a
>   >woman?
>   >A. Don Knotts: That's what's been keeping me awake.
>   >Q. According to Cosmo, if you meet a stranger at a party and you think
>that
>   >he is attractive, is it okay to come out and ask him if he's married?
>   >A. Rose Marie: No, wait until morning.
>   >Q. Which of your five senses tends to diminish as you get older?
>   >A. Charley Weaver: My sense of decency.
>   >Q. In Hawaiian, does it take more than three words to say "I Love You"?
>   >A. Vincent Price: No, you can say it with a pineapple and a twenty.
>   >Q. What are "Do It," "I Can Help," and "I Can't Get Enough"?
>   >A. George Gobel: I don't know, but it's coming from the next apartment.
>   >Q. As you grow older, do you tend to gesture more or less with your
>hands
>   >while talking?
>   >A. Rose Marie: You ask me one more growing old question Peter, and I'll
>give
>   >
>   >you a gesture you'll never forget.
>   >Q. Paul, why do Hell's Angels wear leather?
>   >A. Because chiffon wrinkles too easily.
>   >Q. Charley, you've just decided to grow strawberries. Are you going to
>get
>   >any during the first year?
>   >A. Charley Weaver: Of course not, I'm too busy growing strawberries.
>   >Q. In bowling, what's a perfect score?
>   >A. Rose Marie: Ralph, the pin boy.
>   >Q. It is considered in bad taste to discuss two subjects at nudist
>camps.
>   >One is politics, what is the other?
>   >A. Paul Lynde: Tape measures.
>   >Q. During a tornado, are you safer in the bedroom or in the closet?
>   >A. Rose Marie: Unfortunately Peter, I'm always safe in the bedroom.
>   >Q. Can boys join the CampFireGirls?
>   >A. Marty Allen: Only after lights out.
>   >Q. When you pat a dog on its head he will wag his tail. What will a
>goose
>   >do?
>   >A. Paul Lynde: Make him bark?
>   >Q. If you were pregnant for two years, what would you give birth to?
>   >A. Paul Lynde: Whatever it is, it would never be afraid of the dark.
>   >Q. According to Ann Landers, is their anything wrong with getting into
>the
>   >habit of kissing a lot of people?
>   >A. Charley Weaver: It got me out of the army.
>   >Q. While visiting China, your tour guide starts shouting "Poo! Poo!
>   >Poo!" What does this mean?
>   >A. George Gobel: Cattle crossing.
>   >Q. It is the most abused and neglected part of your body, what is it?
>   >A. Paul Lynde: Mine may be abused but it certainly isn't neglected.
>   >Q. Back in the old days, when Great Grandpa put horseradish on his
>head,
>   >what was he trying to do?
>   >A. George Gobel: Get it in his mouth.
>   >Q. Who stays pregnant for a longer period of time, your wife or your
>   >elephant?
>   >A. Paul Lynde: Who told you about my elephant?
>   >Q. When a couple have a baby, who is responsible for its sex?
>   >A. Charley Weaver: I'll lend him the car, the rest is up to him.
>   >Q. Jackie Gleason recently revealed that he firmly believes in them and
>has
>   >actually seen them on at least two occasions. What are they?
>   >A. Charley Weaver: His feet
>   >Q. According to Ann Landers, what are two things you should never do in
>bed?
>   >
>   >A. Paul Lynde: Point and Laugh
>   >  _____
>   >

 

 
 
    	 
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Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Mar  7 13:33:42 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 12:33:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Matthews' Planet on the Table
Message-ID: <BC70C726.7324%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I've recently gotten my hands on William Matthews's *Search Party:
Collected Poems*, which is of course a selection, not a full collected.
That's too bad, by my lights, but I suppose this book will serve as a handy
introduction for those who don't have all of WM's other books, many (most?)
now out of print.

Unfortunately missing are any of WM's translations (still available in
*Selected Poems & Translations 1969-91*, a book that overlaps heavily with
this new one).

*Search Party* has been intelligently edited by Sebastian Matthews and
Stanley Plumly, and introduced rather sparely by Plumly.  The book contains
a couple dozen previously uncollected poems, so fans will want this volume
even though there's not much else new here.

The editors have opted for a tight selection, and thus have left out many
poems I would have liked to see.

For example, here's a late poem you won't find in the collection, one of the
faux-ghazals WM was experimenting with near the end:

Drizzle 

Baudelaire: "The dead, the poor dead, have their bad hours."
But the dead have no watches, no grief and no hours.

At first not smoking took all my time: I did it
a little by little and hour by hour.

*Per diem. Pro bono. Cui bono? Pro rata*.
But the poor use English. *Off and on. By the hour*.

"I'm sorry but we'll have to stop now." There tick but
fifty minutes in the psychoanalytic hour.

Vengeance is mine, yours, his or hers, ours, yours again
(you-all's this time), and then (yikes!) theirs. I prefer ours.

Twenty minutes fleeing phantoms at full tilt and then
the cat coils herself like a quoit and sleeps for hours.
---------------


Plenty in the new book to admire, though.  Here's one of my favorites which
does appear:


Mingus at The Showplace

I was miserable, of course, for I was seventeen,
and so I swung into action and wrote a poem,

and it was miserable, for that was how I thought
poetry worked: you digested experience and shat

literature. It was 1960 at The Showplace, long since
defunct, on West 4th St., and I sat at the bar,

casting beer money from a thin reel of ones,
the kid in the city, big ears like a puppy.

And I knew Mingus was a genius. I knew two
other things, but as it happened they were wrong.

So I made him look at the poem.
"There's a lot of that going around," he said,

and Sweet Baby Jesus he was right. He glowered
at me but he didn't look as if he thought

bad poems were dangerous, the way some poets do.
If they were baseball executives they'd plot

to destroy sandlots everywhere so that the game
could be saved from children. Of course later

that night he fired his pianist in mid-number
and flurried him from the stand.

"We've suffered a diminuendo in personnel,"
he explained, and the band played on.

--William Matthews

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 14:26:18 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 14:26:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Matthews' Planet on the Table
Message-ID: <f3.36f32e81.2d7cd15a@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/7/2004 1:33:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> ve recently gotten my hands on William Matthews's *Search Party:
> Collected Poems*, which is of course a selection, not a full collected.
> That's too bad, by my lights, but I suppose this book will serve as a handy
> introduction for those who don't have all of WM's other books, many (most?)
> now out of print.
> 
> Unfortunately missing are any of WM's translations (still available in
> *Selected Poems &Translations 1969-91*, a book that overlaps heavily with
> this new one).
> 
> *Search Party* has been intelligently edited by Sebastian Matthews and
> Stanley Plumly, and introduced rather sparely by Plumly.  The book contains
> a couple dozen previously uncollected poems, so fans will want this volume
> even though there's not much else new here.
> 
> The editors have opted for a tight selection, and thus have left out many
> poems I would have liked to see.
> 

David, did you read the Stephen Burt review in NYTimes Book Review
on 1/18? He reviewed _Search Party_ & Matthews' son Sebastian's memoir,
_In the Footsteps of My Father_. Honestly, when I heard about these
books, I was a bit surprised there would be as much interest in Matthews.
I've rated Matthews pretty far down the list among contemporary voices...
so I thought a Collected Poems wasn't warranted. And a son's memoir
too? Anyway, from Burt's review, I gather that the elder Matthews' love life 
is a big part of the memoir..."my father took me aside and told me I could
choose whomever I wanted." (Referring to Matthews asking a couple of 
his U. of Washington grad students to have a sleepover with he and 
his 11th grade son.) 
'Poetry', Matthews said could be defined with the TV Guide's synopsis
for the Hope, Crosby & Lamour movie "Road to Bali"--
"Amorous gorilla pursues Hope." But 'poet',  it seems, should
be defined as "Amorous gorilla pursues L'amor."
Finnegan


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Mar  7 14:45:30 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 13:45:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Matthews' Planet on the Table
In-Reply-To: <f3.36f32e81.2d7cd15a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC70D7FA.732A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 3/7/04 1:26 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:




David, did you read the Stephen Burt review in NYTimes Book Review
on 1/18? He reviewed _Search Party_ & Matthews' son Sebastian's memoir,
_In the Footsteps of My Father_. Honestly, when I heard about these
books, I was a bit surprised there would be as much interest in Matthews.
I've rated Matthews pretty far down the list among contemporary voices...
so I thought a Collected Poems wasn't warranted. And a son's memoir
too? Anyway, from Burt's review, I gather that the elder Matthews' love life
is a big part of the memoir..."my father took me aside and told me I could
choose whomever I wanted." (Referring to Matthews asking a couple of
his U. of Washington grad students to have a sleepover with he and
his 11th grade son.)
'Poetry', Matthews said could be defined with the TV Guide's synopsis
for the Hope, Crosby & Lamour movie "Road to Bali"--
"Amorous gorilla pursues Hope." But 'poet',  it seems, should
be defined as "Amorous gorilla pursues L'amor."
Finnegan
--------------

Jim, I thought Burt's review was unfair in its emphasis on Matthews as an
exemplar of a period style.  It's true that in the 1970s he was guilty
(along with many other poets, needless to say) of writing a kind of generic,
chatty quasi-surrealistic poem (so rightly skewered by Pinsky in *The
Situation of Poetry*); but what I find marvelous about WM is the way,
beginning roughly with *Rising & Falling*, he matured into something rich
and strange.  

One advantage of the new collected edition is that, by weeding away the
ephemera from the early books especially, it reveals more clearly the
origins of the poet WM would become.  The title poem, for instance, from his
first book, *Ruining the New Road*, still holds up rather well today, I'd
say.  I'll maybe type that one up later. . . .

Burt's lumping WM together with other poets (such as Gerald Stern or Stephen
Dobyns) really tells me that Burt wasn't *listening* too closely.  I could
spot WM's mature style a mile off, and it's not at all like Stern's or
Dobyns's.   

The appearance of the collected poems at the same time as WM's son's memoir
may be unfortunate, in that it will tend to divert attention from the poems
as poems.  I've already seen a good deal of discussion of WM as an example
of male privilege, etc.  And that's a needful discussion, no doubt.  But his
personal life was, by all reports, full of flaws *and* full of glories, just
like Robert Frost's; and it may take a while for readers to focus on the
poems again, I imagine.

Still, I'm not the most objective observer.  I didn't know WM personally,
except for a few close-encounters at conferences, but his work was highly
important to me for a number of reasons over a long period.  I'm a big fan.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Mar  7 16:53:27 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 15:53:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Search Party/Matthews
Message-ID: <BC70F5F7.7331%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Here's the early Wm. Matthews poem that the editors chose as title poem for
the new collected edition.  Matthews himself put it first both in his first
book and in the selected edition he supervised 12 years ago, so it's safe to
say that he liked the poem a lot.  And/or he saw in it, as I do, the seeds
of his mature style.




The Search Party


I wondered if the others felt
as heroic 
and as safe: *my* unmangled family
slept while I slid uncertain feet ahead
behind my flashlight's beam.
Stones, thick roots as twisted as
a ruined body, 
what did I fear? 
I hoped my batteries
had eight more lives
than the lost child.
I feared I'd find something.

Reader, by now you must be sure
you know just where we are,
deep in symbolic woods.
Irony, self-accusation,
someone else's suffering.
The search is that of art.

You're wrong, though it's
an intelligent mistake.
There was a real lost child.
I don't want to swaddle it
in metaphor.
I'm just a journalist
who can't believe in objectivity.
I'm in these poems 
because I'm in my life.
But I digress.

A man four volunteers
to the left of me 
made the discovery.
We circled in like waves
returning to the parent shock.
You've read this far, you might as well
have been there too. Your eyes accuse
me of faise chase. Come off it,
you're the one who thought it wouldn't
matter what we found.
Though we came with lights
and tongues thick in our heads,
the issue was a human life.
The child was still
alive. Admit you're glad.

--William Matthews.  *Search Party:  Collected Poems of William Matthews*,
Houghton Mifflin, 2004.  [Originally in *Ruining the New Road*, 1970.]


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Sun Mar  7 17:51:09 2004
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 04 17:51:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] dog and cat poems
Message-ID: <200403072251.i27MpQJ8112650@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:14:06 -0500 **************
No doubt it's a character failing of mine, but I find the dog
and cat poems eminently skippable...

But I started Marcus' below, and finished it, and I think it's
just plain terrific.

"As those two quivering tears that stand unshed
As she takes in what you are shocked you've said."

stand with the best lines I've ever read.

Richard

>>The Fall Comes
>>
>>All you see that moment is the sheen
>>Reflected off his golden coat, his tongue
>>A noisy comma added in between
>>Two panting moments, then taken from among
>>Them in the next; his clear and following eyes
>>Light up unshaded in the summer light
>>That fills the western window like goodbyes
>>Fill lyric verse; and all the world is bright
>>As those two quivering tears that stand unshed
>>As she takes in what you are shocked you've said.
>>
>>And then the tears are gone: her hand around
>>The champagne flute is steady, and the soft sound
>>She makes to call the dog is calm. She turns,
>>They leave, the fall comes, and your life burns.
>>
>>
>>


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 17:54:17 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:54:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Deadline--Cherry Grove Lyre Prize
Message-ID: <19c.211d51d8.2d7d0219@aol.com>

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 00:44:25 -0500
From: Kevin Walzer <listadmin at WORDTECHCOMMUNICATIONS.COM>
Subject: Deadline--Cherry Grove Lyre Prize

This is just a reminder that the deadline for the Cherry Grove Lyre Prize
for a book of lyric poetry is March 15, 2004 (postmark deadline; we will
accept next-mail-day if the deadline falls on a Sunday). The winner receives
$1,000 and 25 copies of the published book, and we will select a few
runners-up for publication and a royalty contract. Guidelines are available
at http://www.cherry-grove.com.

Kevin Walzer, Poetry Editor
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Mar  7 17:58:27 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:58:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Matthews' Planet on the Table
Message-ID: <8c.52ebb80.2d7d0313@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/7/2004 2:46:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> Burt's lumping WM together with other poets (such as Gerald Stern or 
> Stephen
> Dobyns) really tells me that Burt wasn't *listening* too closely.  I could
> spot WM's mature style a mile off, and it's not at all like Stern's or
> Dobyns's.   
> 
David,
You're right about this...not much like Stern's mature style (does
Stern have a mature style?, I ask myself). Not really like Dobyns
either...Dobyn's is somewhat darker or more dour. I think Matthews 
shares some style & sensibility with Thomas Lux, and, dare I say it, 
Bill Collins.

Another name that Burt brought up in association with Matthews was
Stephen Dunn...and I think Dunn is the best of the aforementioned
lot, for a variety of reasons. Most of all I think he's tried harder not
to repeat himself. It seemed he was stretching more from book to book.

I didn't follow Matthews' progress as a poet as closely as you did.
His was a poetry I could enjoy, but I never got really excited about
the poems. I do remember finding Matthews' _Rising & Falling_ in the 
stacks of  my local library, back in my St. Louis days...I remember going
back to a carrel and reading that book cover to cover. I remember it as 
a pleasant experience. That may sound like faint praise...but can a poet 
ask for much more? Someone read one his/her book all the way through 
and liked it. 
Finnegan
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Mar  8 05:06:23 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:06:23 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for papers
Message-ID: <00c201c404f5$032aed20$d2607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

>Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:33:30 +0100
 >From: <samuel.ludwig at ens.unibe.ch>

INTERNATIONAL AMERICAN STUDIES ASSOCIATION (IASA)


Second World Congress Thursday, August 18 to Saturday August 20, 2005
University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
TOPIC:
"Americas' Worlds and the World's Americas"
Plenary Speakers: Enrique Dussel (Mexico), Hortense Spillers (USA), Fran=E7o=
is
Par=E9 (Canada)
INVITATION:
The International American Studies Association will be holding its Second
World Congress at the  University of Ottawa. We invite you to participate in
this international conference to share the results of your research and to
gather with specialists working in the multiple disciplines on the USA and
the rest of the American Hemisphere. It is hoped that the conference will
foster discussion based on practical and theoretical interdisciplinary
analysis, and on comparative approaches to intercultural movements,
historical formations, realpolitik, literary traditions, and global flows of
people, capital, and power.


=46or instructions on submitting panel/paper proposals by March 17 2004 plea=
se
visit the conference link of IASA's web site:
http://www.iasaweb.org/conferences.html  Those in need of travel funds,
please indicate the cost of airfare between point of origin and Ottawa,
Canada. Requests for funding must be submitted before March 17. Please fax
the completed form to Patrick Imbert, Executive Director of IASA, (613)
562-5981.

-- 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
S=E4mi LUDWIG, PhD
Institut d'Anglais
=46LSH - Universit=E9 de Haute-Alsace
10 rue des Fr=E8res Lumi=E8re
68200 Mulhouse
=46RANCE
Email: <ludwig at ens.unibe.ch>
private address:
Grossmatt 18
CH-4616 Kappel
SWITZERLAND
Phone: ++41.62.216.6929 

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar  8 07:39:39 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 07:39:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Martha Stewart
In-Reply-To: <19c.211d51d8.2d7d0219@aol.com>
Message-ID: <404C233B.19643.A7459@localhost>

Martha Stewart

Martha Stewart, child of hype,
	Grew rich by selling lifestyle passion;
She branded every likely type
	Of changing fashion.

Martha loved her show, to sell
	Her sense of style to every viewer;
But from tales employees tell
	She's Martha Skewer.

Behind the scenes, though, Martha sighed
	For IPOs and corporate raiding --
And dreamed up schemes to try to hide
	Insider trading.

Martha mourned that party favors
	Soups, desserts, and canapes
Were nothing to the secret savors
	Of Wall Street's ways.

Martha cursed the common stocks
	And eyed a dividend with loathing
She thought they fared like home-made frocks
	To designer clothing.

Martha loved the Merrill Lynches,
	The ones whose biggest sells and buys
Were market-making semi-cinches
	For just the guys.

Martha scorned the laws that cover
	Publicly traded financial transactions,
And now may have to choose a lover
	From prison factions.

The Martha Stewart trial's furors
	Show it's Martha Stewart's living
Which ordinary women jurors
	Aren't forgiving.





From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Mar  8 08:12:13 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:12:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog: A test of poetry
Message-ID: <002b01c4050e$fc8c4a30$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

A test of poetry:
anonymity & context

Woundwood:
The joy of a new book

Chris Stroffolino on The Dreamers
(Medium Cool)

Sunday Morning Anthology:
Nine poets in Somerville, MA

Bill Bathurst & Richard Brautigan -
Deciding to stop

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

The Dissociated Writing Project

Gender & the problem
of the unmarked case
(The Dreamers, continued)

Bertolucci's The Dreamers -
The film you make vs.
the one you think you're making

A memorial to Gil Ott

Kathleen Fraser
Coupling Categories Forced into Discreteness

Kathleen Fraser
Discrete Categories Forced into Coupling

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 10:53:55 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:53:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Republic of Poetry
Message-ID: <157.2f7f7e48.2d7df113@aol.com>

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-1-66-1766.jsp
The Republic of Poetry 
 Liu Hongbin 
4 - 3 - 2004 

Liu Hongbin is a rare poet whose talent is found even in translation between 
the worlds of Chinese and English. We publish four of his poems, and in a 
recent interview, he describes how he has created his own China out of post-1989 
exile. First, Candida Clark introduces Liu Hongbin. 


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 11:16:15 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:16:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Kirby,"Ideas that Move"
Message-ID: <b4.29143abf.2d7df64f@aol.com>

David Kirby,"Ideas that Move"...
People who question the value of poetry need to consider
this: why have there always been poets?...As far as that
goes, why is there a poet laureate but not a novelist
laureate or playwright laureate, not to mention a
composer/painter/sculptor/filmmaker laureate? Since the
dawn of history, every culture has had poets; why do people
write and read poetry if it isn?t hugely rewarding to them?

http://www.research.fsu.edu/researchr/winter2004/coverstory.html



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Mar  8 12:49:52 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:49:52 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Matthews
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A22A@ariel.ripon.edu>

Well, I'll stop posting WM poems if you beg me, but. . . .

Here's another one that is (blessedly) included in the new edition.

		The Accompanist


		Don't play too much, don't play
		too loud, don't play the melody.
		You have to anticipate her
		and to subdue yourself. 
		She used to give me her smoky
		eye when I got boisterous,
		so I learned to play on tip-
		toe and to play the better half
		of what I might.  I don't like
		to complain, though I notice
		that I get around to it somehow.
		We made a living and good music,
		both, night after night, the blue
		curlicues of smoke rubbing their
		staling and wispy backs
		against the ceilings, the flat
		drinks and scarce taxis, the jazz life
		we bitch about the way Army pals
		complain about the food and then
		re-up.  Some people like to say
		with smut in their voices how playing
		the way we did at our best is partly
		sexual.  OK, I could tell them
		a tale or two, and I've heard
		the records Lester cut with Lady Day
		and all that rap, and it's partly
		sexual but it's mostly practice
		and music.  As for partly sexual,
		I'll take wholly sexual any day,
		but that's a duet and we're talking
		accompaniment.  Remember "Reckless
		Blues"?  Bessie Smith sings out "Daddy"
		and Louis Armstrong plays back "Daddy"
		as clear through his horn as if he'd
		spoken it.  But it's her daddy and her
		story.  When you play it you become
		your part in it, one of her beautiful
		troubles, and then, however much music
		can do this, part of her consolation,
		the way pain and joy eat off each other's 
		plates, but mostly you play to drunks,
		to the night, to the way you judge
		and pardon yourself, to all that goes
		not unsung, but unrecorded.  
		--William Matthews.  Foreseeable Futures.  1987.


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Mar  8 14:56:27 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:56:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: CATS
In-Reply-To: <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040303091143.00b86d78@incoming.verizon.net>
 <001501c40144$fb815ea0$21def63f@Helen> <00bd01c40174$323cdc60$80efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20040308145543.J79255@kpaul.spinweb.net>

meow

oh maggie,
you waddled when you walked,
i showed your blubber off,
because you were the cutest
22lb cat one ever saw.

you made me sneeze as soon
as i walked thru the front door,
but we loved you
like you loved your kitty food
(and the odd donut or two).

what can i say ol' fatty?
i'll miss tripping over you
and petting you with my feet.

i'll be missing the time your
head got stuck in a Doritos chips bag
and you fell off the couch,
or the time i shroomed with you
and highlighted your whiskers.

we're all sorry we cut off your balls
and declawed you.

when the sky breaks out in
thunderstorms
i'll think of you running
for the basement,
like you ran when the rat
bit your ear.

oh maggie,
who will eat my pieces
of chicken fat now?


- fraturday (aka Jen from MUG)



From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 17:28:50 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:28:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading at Columbia U
Message-ID: <9e.5314c4e.2d7e4da2@aol.com>

ADEENA KARASICK
                           MARK COCHRANE


Columbia University
The Gallery, Dodge Hall (Broadway  & 116th St.)
Tuesday March 9th, 8:00 PM
Wine and Cheese

Poets will be available after the reading to answer questions and to discuss 
formal experimentation, specifically the use of collage. This reading is 
sponsored by CA/T, Columbia Artists as Teachers program, in affiliation with the 
weekly seminar "Going to Pieces: Literature and Philosophy in Fragments."

                                   ***

Adeena Karasick is a poet, cultural theorist and the award-winning author of 
five books of poetry and poetic theory, The Arugula Fugues (Zasterle Press, 
2001), Dyssemia Sleaze (Talonbooks, Spring 2000), Genrecide (Talonbooks, 1996), 
Memewars (Talonbooks, 1994), and The Empress Has No Closure (Talonbooks, 
1992). Marked with an urban, Jewish, feminist aesthetic that continually challenges 
normative modes of meaning production, Karasick has lectured and performed 
worldwide and regularly publishes articles, reviews and dialogues on 
contemporary poetry, poetics and cultural/semiotic theory. She teaches Literature and 
Culture at St. John's University.  Forthcoming is The House That Hijack Built 
(Talonbooks, Spring 2004).

"the most remorselessley, exuberantly, excessively `productive' 
slaughterhouse of language I've ever heard..." (Word)

"an impressive deconstruction of language and meaning which is "exuberant in 
[its] cross-fertilization of punning and knowing, theatre and theory" (Charles
Bernstein)

"...combines the act of creation/invocation with an almost shamanistic 
fervor, Karasick's polyphonic compositions serve as psalms for a multilingual 
community of readers bound by belief in the primacy of language and the efficacy of 
invocation..." (Sharon Nelson)

                                    ***

Mark Cochrane lives in Vancouver, Canada, where he teaches literature and 
creative writing at Kwantlen University College, occasionally reviews books for 
the Vancouver Sun, and studies Law at the University of British Columbia.  He 
is the author of Boy Am I (Wolsak & Wynn 1995) and Change Room (Talonbooks 
2000).  A third collection of poetry, The Replacements, in forthcoming in spring 
2005.

Reviews:

"Cochrane dazzles, and that's for sure. His is a big talent.  He has enormous 
energy and range.  Pathology, mythology, family rites, the weirdly homoerotic 
ambience of the hockey rink, and the sweaty ironies of the gymnasium are some 
of the fuels that drive his poetics.  His writing is muscular, his optic 
daring and original....At his best, and he is often there, Mark Cochrane is a 
glorious writer."
 - Bill Richardson, Quill & Quire

"Change Room is tough and brainy, with idiosyncratic language that sometimes 
shifts to simplicity--the poetic equivalent of a power chord." - Event magazine
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From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Mar  8 19:47:50 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:47:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] LA:  Writers & Teachers Reading March 16, 7:30
Message-ID: <f8.379a3c45.2d7e6e36@aol.com>

Elena Byrne, author of THE FLAMMABLE BIRD (Zoo Press)
will be reading with and introducing three former students:
 
John Kovatch
Giorgio Baroni
Antonieta Villamil, author of  LOS ACANTILADOS DEL SUE?O
 
7:30 pm, Tuesday, March 16
Barnes & Noble Westwood
10850 West Pico Blvd.
West Los Angeles, CA  90064
 
corner of Westwood & Pico in the Westside Pavilion Mall
free parking in the mall
free brownies
 
Elena Karina Byrne is a teacher, visual artist, curator for the USC Doheny 
Memorial Library poetry series and the Ruskin Art Club poetry series. She is 
Poetry Moderator for the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books. She is also 
currently working on projects with Red Car Studios and Red Hen Press. Her first book, 
The Flammable Bird, is available from Zoo Press.
 
Antonieta Villamil, author of seven books, born in Colombia in 1962, is an 
international award winning poet, narrator, editor, translator and cultural 
activist.  Villamil presents her poetry in a multimedia performance and directs 
the poetry reviews MORADALSUR and THE POEM.
 
Giorgio Baroni?s poems in Italian and English have been widely published 
online. He is completing a memoir entitled Dante's Arm.
 
John Kovatch?s poems have appeared in journals including Glenna Luschei?s 
SOLO, and he has participated in the Poetry In Motion readings on the LA MTA as 
well as in the San Gabriel Valley Poetry Festival.\
 
____________________________________
 
This series is under the curatorship of Catherine Daly and Margaret Wang 
every third Tuesday at B&N Westwood and now every fourth Tuesday at B&N Glendale.  
Each month a local writer who teaches reads with and presents three students. 
 Contact Catherine Daly @ cadaly at pacbell.net for more information, of if you 
are a published writer in the Los Angeles area who teaches poetry, fiction, or 
playwriting.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  8 22:20:33 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:20:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 3 by Wallace Stevens
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBGIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

A Clear Day and No Memories

No soldiers in the scenery,
No thoughts of people now dead,
As they were fifty years ago,
Young and living in a live air,
Young and walking in the sunshine,
Bending in blue dresses to touch something,
Today the mind is not part of the weather.

Today the air is clear of everything.
It has no knowledge except of nothingness
And it flows over us without meanings,
As if none of us had ever been here before
And are not now: in this shallow spectacle,
This invisible activity, this sense.


As You Leave the Room

*You speak. You say:* Today's character is not
A skeleton out of its cabinet. Nor am I.

That poem about the pineapple, the one
About the mind as never satisfied,

The one about the credible hero, the one
About summer, are not what skeletons think about.

I wonder, have I lived a skeleton's life,
As a disbeliever in reality,

A countryman of all the bones in the world?
Now, here, the snow I had forgotten becomes

Part of a major reality, part of 
An appreciation of a reality

And thus an elevation, as if I left
With something I could touch, touch every way.

And yet nothing has been changed except what is
Unreal, as if nothing had been changed at all.


Of Mere Being

The palm at the end of the mind,
Beyond the last thought, rises
In the bronze distance,

A gold-feathered bird
Sings in the palm, without human meaning,
Without human feeling, a foreign song.

You know then that it is not the reason
That makes us happy or unhappy.
The bird sings. Its feathers shine.

The palm stands on the edge of space.
The wind moves slowly in the branches.
The bird's fire-fangled feathers dangle down.

--Wallace Stevens


in *Poems by Wallace Stevens* (selected by
Samuel French Morse), New York: Vintage, 1959

Hal                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Mar  8 23:29:01 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:29:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBGIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BC72A42D.73A7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

The Sun This March

The exceeding brightness of this early sun
Makes me conceive how dark I have become,

Of a turning spirit in an earlier self.
That, too, returns from out the winter's air,

Like an hallucination come to daze
The corner of the eye. Our element--

Cold is our element and winter's air
Brings voices as of lions coming down.

Oh! Rabbi, rabbi, fend my soul for me
And true savant of this dark nature be.

--Wallace Stevens


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Tue Mar  9 07:51:15 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:51:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 3 by Wallace Stevens
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBGIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBGIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040308222551.N70740@kpaul.spinweb.net>

thanks for #2...

i needed that.

-kpaul

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> A Clear Day and No Memories
>
> No soldiers in the scenery,
> No thoughts of people now dead,
> As they were fifty years ago,
> Young and living in a live air,
> Young and walking in the sunshine,
> Bending in blue dresses to touch something,
> Today the mind is not part of the weather.
>
> Today the air is clear of everything.
> It has no knowledge except of nothingness
> And it flows over us without meanings,
> As if none of us had ever been here before
> And are not now: in this shallow spectacle,
> This invisible activity, this sense.
>
>
> As You Leave the Room
>
> *You speak. You say:* Today's character is not
> A skeleton out of its cabinet. Nor am I.
>
> That poem about the pineapple, the one
> About the mind as never satisfied,
>
> The one about the credible hero, the one
> About summer, are not what skeletons think about.
>
> I wonder, have I lived a skeleton's life,
> As a disbeliever in reality,
>
> A countryman of all the bones in the world?
> Now, here, the snow I had forgotten becomes
>
> Part of a major reality, part of
> An appreciation of a reality
>
> And thus an elevation, as if I left
> With something I could touch, touch every way.
>
> And yet nothing has been changed except what is
> Unreal, as if nothing had been changed at all.
>
>
> Of Mere Being
>
> The palm at the end of the mind,
> Beyond the last thought, rises
> In the bronze distance,
>
> A gold-feathered bird
> Sings in the palm, without human meaning,
> Without human feeling, a foreign song.
>
> You know then that it is not the reason
> That makes us happy or unhappy.
> The bird sings. Its feathers shine.
>
> The palm stands on the edge of space.
> The wind moves slowly in the branches.
> The bird's fire-fangled feathers dangle down.
>
> --Wallace Stevens
>
>
> in *Poems by Wallace Stevens* (selected by
> Samuel French Morse), New York: Vintage, 1959
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Tue Mar  9 11:13:25 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:13:25 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A22C@ariel.ripon.edu>

Once again the National Book Critics Circle Award has gone to a book I have
not read.  Would like to hear from those who have.

Here's a sample poem I turned up:

Dark the star

Dark the star
deep in the well,
bright in the still
and moving water,
still as the night
circling above
the circle of stones
the darkness surrounds.
Dark the wish
made on the star,
a true wish made
on the water's image.

There is no technique in the grass.
There is no technique in the rose.

Susan Stewart.. Columbarium. University of Chicago Press, 2003.




============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From hruggier at localnet.com  Tue Mar  9 11:24:42 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:24:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A22C@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <013801c405f3$08399600$4c089942@Helen>

No cats, no dogs, we're thrown back into the chaos of
judging by another's criteria!

    Rubric

    Most nearly approaches work done by
    into. students

    Most nearly goes with breakfast donuts and coffee


Please add your criteria to the rubric
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:13 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart


> Once again the National Book Critics Circle Award has gone to a book I
have
> not read.  Would like to hear from those who have.
>
> Here's a sample poem I turned up:
>
> Dark the star
>
> Dark the star
> deep in the well,
> bright in the still
> and moving water,
> still as the night
> circling above
> the circle of stones
> the darkness surrounds.
> Dark the wish
> made on the star,
> a true wish made
> on the water's image.
>
> There is no technique in the grass.
> There is no technique in the rose.
>
> Susan Stewart.. Columbarium. University of Chicago Press, 2003.
>
>
>
>
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From MillB at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 11:28:59 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:28:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <145.23e27b7b.2d7f4acb@aol.com>

Rubric

    Most nearly approaches work done by
    intro. students

    Most nearly goes with breakfast donuts and coffee

   Mostly translated from "the French" by someone who does not speak French
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  9 11:51:32 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:51:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A22C@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAECEIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hmm, those awards *always* seem to go to books I haven't
read. Not that I'm trying to keep up with things, of course.

Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."
	                              --Vicente Huidobro
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
 
{    Once again the National Book Critics Circle Award has gone to a book I have
{    not read.  Would like to hear from those who have.
{    
{    Here's a sample poem I turned up:
{    
{    Dark the star
{    
{    Dark the star
{    deep in the well,
{    bright in the still
{    and moving water,
{    still as the night
{    circling above
{    the circle of stones
{    the darkness surrounds.
{    Dark the wish
{    made on the star,
{    a true wish made
{    on the water's image.
{    
{    There is no technique in the grass.
{    There is no technique in the rose.
{    
{    Susan Stewart.. Columbarium. University of Chicago Press, 2003.
{    
{    
{    
{    
{    ============================================
{    David Graham
{    Department of English, Ripon College
{    grahamd at ripon.edu
{         Home Page:  
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
{         My Poetry Library:
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
{    
{    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
{    ============================================
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Mar  9 11:41:25 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:41:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A22C@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BC734FD5.6266%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 3/9/04 10:13 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:

> Once again the National Book Critics Circle Award has gone to a book I have
> not read.  Would like to hear from those who have.
> 
> Here's a sample poem I turned up:
> 
> Dark the star
> 
> Dark the star
> deep in the well,
> bright in the still
> and moving water,
> still as the night
> circling above
> the circle of stones
> the darkness surrounds.
> Dark the wish
> made on the star,
> a true wish made
> on the water's image.
> 
> There is no technique in the grass.
> There is no technique in the rose.
> 
> Susan Stewart.. Columbarium. University of Chicago Press, 2003.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
There is not technique in the poem--except a very tire one.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  9 12:07:47 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:07:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <BC734FD5.6266%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIECFIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    > Dark the star
{    > 
{    > Dark the star
{    > deep in the well,
{    > bright in the still
{    > and moving water,
{    > still as the night
{    > circling above
{    > the circle of stones
{    > the darkness surrounds.
{    > Dark the wish
{    > made on the star,
{    > a true wish made
{    > on the water's image.
{    > 
{    > There is no technique in the grass.
{    > There is no technique in the rose.
{    > 
{    > Susan Stewart.. Columbarium. University of Chicago Press, 2003.

{    There is not technique in the poem--except a very tire one.
{    
{    Paul Lake

Hmm, could've sworn I saw *two* of them there. Don't know
about the tires, though.

Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."
	                              --Vicente Huidobro
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From hruggier at localnet.com  Tue Mar  9 14:24:05 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:24:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
References: <145.23e27b7b.2d7f4acb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01a301c4060c$16cd6430$4c089942@Helen>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MillB at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart


  Rubric

      Most nearly approaches work done by
      intro. students

      Most nearly goes with breakfast donuts and coffee

     Mostly translated from "the French" by someone who   does not speak French

     Went to school with the most judges

      



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From MillB at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 14:36:40 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:36:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <be.71c9a0e.2d7f76c8@aol.com>

Rubric

    Most nearly approaches work done by
    intro. students

    Most nearly goes with breakfast donuts and coffee

   Mostly translated from "the French" by someone who   does not speak French

   Went to school with the most judges
      Went to bed with the most judges
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Mar  9 16:19:31 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:19:31 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rubric
Message-ID: <006401c4061c$36eae070$dc607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Poem and audio by Peter Howard: Rubric

http://www.hphoward.demon.co.uk/poetry/rubric.htm

Few liked my new signature, but I still do,
thus :
Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

The youth walks up to the white horse, to put its halter on
and the horse looks at him in silence.
They are so silent, they are in another world.
The White Horse, D.H.Lawrence
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar  9 18:27:45 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:27:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
References: <145.23e27b7b.2d7f4acb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f201c4062e$2225a050$faefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


     Mostly translated from "the French" by someone who does not speak French.

  If only!  What a refreshing change that would be.

  --Bob G.


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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Mar  9 18:51:08 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:51:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <be.71c9a0e.2d7f76c8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A2DD71B6-7224-11D8-B8A8-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 02:36 PM, MillB at aol.com wrote:

> ????? Went to bed with the most judges
>

I don't know many woman poets who haven't been dismissed this way.  
Have you read more of Stewart's work than the little web-find David 
posted?

Wendy



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

                Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.
                                                       --Rumi




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Mar  9 19:21:58 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:21:58 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <de.4524b3bf.2d7fb9a6@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/9/2004 5:55:36 PM Central Standard Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: 
> 
> I don't know many woman poets who haven't been dismissed this way.  
> Have you read more of Stewart's work than the little web-find David 
> posted?
> 
> Wendy
> 
> 
> 
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu

I agree.  Post more and keep the rude comments down.
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From MillB at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 19:49:32 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:49:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <33550264.154F467E.0000FC2C@aol.com>

You know, I was just joking around. . .I see no difference in what I wrote and what others jokingly posted about "going to school with the judges" or "enjoying donuts and coffee."  It was not necessarily a comment on the quality of Stewart's work. I was just having fun building a rubric.  I toyed with adding the line "Mostly drinking with the judges" too!

--Sorry if I offended anyone :)


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 20:03:27 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:03:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <98.55b1577.2d7fc35f@aol.com>


> See <http://www.smartishpace.com/home/reviews.html> 
> 
> 
> ***************
> Ravi Shankar 
> Poet-in-Residence
> Assistant Professor
> CCSU - English Dept.
> 860-832-2766
> shankarr at ccsu.edu

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Subject: RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:46:17 -0500
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 20:44:07 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:44:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <1cb.1ba53d26.2d7fcce7@aol.com>

Im afraid I don't know much about her poetry.
I've got one her crit/academic books on a bedside
bookcase: _Poetry and the Fate of the Senses_.  
("You had me at the title, " I want to say.)
Alas, I've only casually glanced thru it....but it
looks good, bouncing around in several centuries
of poetry. Speaking of Hardy's "The Voice," she says
"This poem has a rather startlingly amount of tension
between metrical organization and metrical noise.
It is a poem full of emotion worked through on a 
level of sound and is about as close as poetry can
come to the condition of music and still maintain
its meaning as poetry."
I like that bit about metrical organization & metrical noise.
Finnegan
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  9 21:10:11 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:10:11 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <200403100154.i2A1sCBS119520@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

I found her to be a great teacher when I was at Temple in the late 1980s--
even though I wasn't a big fan of her poetry (and vice versa I think),
I've enjoyed some of her prose and found her to be very open-minded
and way more willing to find common-ground
with her students than many other teachers I've worked with.

Chris

----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Date: Tue, Mar 9, 2004, 5:44 PM


Im afraid I don't know much about her poetry.
I've got one her crit/academic books on a bedside
bookcase: _Poetry and the Fate of the Senses_.
("You had me at the title, " I want to say.)
Alas, I've only casually glanced thru it....but it
looks good, bouncing around in several centuries
of poetry. Speaking of Hardy's "The Voice," she says
"This poem has a rather startlingly amount of tension
between metrical organization and metrical noise.
It is a poem full of emotion worked through on a
level of sound and is about as close as poetry can
come to the condition of music and still maintain
its meaning as poetry."
I like that bit about metrical organization & metrical noise.
Finnegan

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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Mar  9 22:24:19 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:24:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <33550264.154F467E.0000FC2C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6ADDA93E-7242-11D8-B8A8-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

No offense taken, Mill.  I was responding to the whole thread, really; 
I'm just weary of seeing poets trashed so off-handedly.

Wendy


On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 07:49 PM, MillB at aol.com wrote:

> You know, I was just joking around. . .I see no difference in what I 
> wrote and what others jokingly posted about "going to school with the 
> judges" or "enjoying donuts and coffee."  It was not necessarily a 
> comment on the quality of Stewart's work. I was just having fun 
> building a rubric.  I toyed with adding the line "Mostly drinking with 
> the judges" too!
>
> --Sorry if I offended anyone :)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar  9 22:38:29 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:38:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
References: <6ADDA93E-7242-11D8-B8A8-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <01b001c40651$290f6950$faefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> No offense taken, Mill.  I was responding to the whole thread, really;
> I'm just weary of seeing poets trashed so off-handedly.
>
> Wendy

What about the first-rate poets constantly trashed by the morons giving
money and awards to tenth-raters instead of to them?

--Bob G.
--Bob G.




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 22:46:59 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:46:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <db.54e9658.2d7fe9b3@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/9/2004 10:25:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes:
No offense taken, Mill.  I was responding to the whole thread, really; 
I'm just weary of seeing poets trashed so off-handedly.

Wendy
Poets trashing poets. Rather astonishing when you consider our, um, position. 

Sudden nonfiction: I put a stack of books by a terrific poet (we have, as 
they say, an overstock) on the table in the English faculty room with a sign 
urging everybody to take one. No charge. Free. Nobody took any. So I added to my 
sign: this book was runner up to ForeWord's poetry book of the year, it was 
nominated for a Pushcart, it contains two *Best American* poems, etc. etc. Three 
days later, one -- one! -- free book has been taken. By the chair of the 
French department.

Guys, for most of the world -- even English faculty for heaven's sake -- 
we're not worth taking the time to trash. But on this list, more often than not, 
it's not the criticism. I eat up a well thought out critique. It's the tone. 
The contentiousness. The oppositional defiance. Makes me, to tell the truth, 
nuts. Makes me think, somewhere Hobbes is chuckling to himself, saying, *see . . 
. even the poets.*

Jeffrey
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Mar  9 22:55:33 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:55:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart reviewed
Message-ID: <BC73EDD5.73DA%grahamd@ripon.edu>

More on Susan Stewart:

A review of *Columbarium* by Ray McDaniel at *Constant Critic*:

http://www.constantcritic.com/archive.cgi?rev=Ray_McDaniel&name=Columbarium


Also, Edward Hirsch featured the book in his Poet's Choice column for 2/8:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A17417-2004Feb5?language=printer


And Stewart has a page at the Academy of American Poets site, with links to
a # of poems:

http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?45442B7C000C04000B

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Mar  9 23:03:58 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:03:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <01b001c40651$290f6950$faefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <F533F530-7247-11D8-B8A8-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 10:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> What about the first-rate poets constantly trashed by the morons giving
> money and awards to tenth-raters instead of to them?

Yeah, well, times are tough all round, Bob.

Wendy




Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
--------------------------

We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with 
nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, 
and a presumption that once our eyes watered.
Tom Stoppard



From Thom424 at aol.com  Tue Mar  9 23:04:16 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:04:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
Message-ID: <c4.723ebd6.2d7fedc0@aol.com>

here's a modest proposal: why don't some of us (all of us!?) buy a copy of 
stewart's book (or check it out of the library or borrow it from a friend), read 
it, and then post our thoughts/responses to it after we've read it...hey! we 
don't even have to argue or debate its merits--just post our responses to it. 
it will be fun to see the continuum of thought and response to the same 
poems/book. 

new-poetry, phew! this is a tough crowd! is there anyone out there writing 
today capable of garnering unanimous or near-unanimous kudos from this list's 
members? 

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 01:20:26 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:20:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <65.23edfaad.2d800daa@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/9/2004 7:04:17 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> >> See <http://www.smartishpace.com/home/reviews.html> 
>> 
> 
Barf.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Mar 10 05:38:22 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:38:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zelda
Message-ID: <001f01c4068b$d01367d0$d51c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 06:49:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:49:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
References: <c4.723ebd6.2d7fedc0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004901c40695$d0cb3a90$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  here's a modest proposal: why don't some of us (all of us!?) buy a copy of stewart's book (or check it out of the library or borrow it from a friend), read it, and then post our thoughts/responses to it after we've read it...hey! we don't even have to argue or debate its merits--just post our responses to it. it will be fun to see the continuum of thought and response to the same poems/book. 

  new-poetry, phew! this is a tough crowd! is there anyone out there writing today capable of garnering unanimous or near-unanimous kudos from this list's members? 


  Actually we don't have to buy the book, Thom.  We know from who published it and the award it just got that it's got about one chance in a thousand of being worth reading, and no chances in a million of being worth studying.

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 06:51:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:51:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
References: <65.23edfaad.2d800daa@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c40696$02a81f10$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

See <http://www.smartishpace.com/home/reviews.html> 



  Barf. 


  I must be in a really mean mood.  That was my impression before even looking at it.  

  --Bob G.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Mar 10 07:50:00 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:50:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <01b001c40651$290f6950$faefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <404EC8A8.22770.1525C2@localhost>

On 9 Mar 2004 at 22:38, Bob Grumman wrote:
> What about the first-rate poets constantly trashed by the morons
> giving money and awards to tenth-raters instead of to them?

What about an example.






From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Mar 10 08:05:18 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:05:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <db.54e9658.2d7fe9b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <404ECC3E.8315.232899@localhost>

On 9 Mar 2004 at 22:46, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Poets trashing poets. Rather astonishing when you consider our, um,
> position. ... Makes me think, somewhere
> Hobbes is chuckling to himself, saying, *see . .. even the poets.*<

First, I don't think there's any disagreement on this list that 
Sturgeon's Law applies to poetry: 90% of everything is crap. Thus, 
the chances of the book of poetry you're reading right now being crap 
is, statistically, very good if it is momre or less randomly selected 
from the available books -- that is to say, you're reading it because 
of a concatenation of circumstances and not because you know the 
poet's work and have sought it out. Thus, too, if you're an honest 
critic and are moved to comment on most of the poetry most of your 
criticism is going to be of the "trashing" variety -- it can't help 
but be, unless you consciously seek out only good poetry to comment 
on and keep quiet about the rest. Since it's not really possible to 
read all the poetry, though, that's not a good policy either, because 
it means that one is necessarily silent about some good poetry. 

Finally, though, I don't see why poets are in any particular 
"position" that obligates them to be tolerant of what they think is 
bad work. What's bad is when a critic says something is bad but 
doesn't say why, or the why doesn't hold together. Perhaps that's 
what you mean by "trashing" as opposed to "a bad review", one that 
takes the time to point out what the reviewer thinks is bad, and why.

The notion that poets have a duty to be nice to one another because 
... well, because they're poets, seems pretty silly to me. If the 
goal is excellence then there are going to be a lot of people, the 
vast majority of people, in any enterprise, from poetry to 
engineering, who are just not very good at it no matter how hard they 
try. And I don't see any reason for poets to fall silent in the face 
of bad poetry, so long as they articulate reasonably well what they 
mean by bad and good poetry and offer reasons that this is bad and 
that is good. The notion that poets have to say nice things about 
other poets' work just because they're poets, or claim to be, and 
quality of work counts for nothing, is pernicious.

Marcus











From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 10 08:30:57 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:30:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <db.54e9658.2d7fe9b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEDNIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Maybe if you'd put out Shakespeare, Milton, or Chaucer you'd have
gotten even fewer takers.

Hal         Not responsible for typographical terriers.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

  Sudden nonfiction: I put a stack of books by a terrific poet (we have, as
they say, an overstock) on the table in the English faculty room with a sign
urging everybody to take one. No charge. Free. Nobody took any. So I added
to my sign: this book was runner up to ForeWord's poetry book of the year,
it was nominated for a Pushcart, it contains two *Best American* poems, etc.
etc. Three days later, one -- one! -- free book has been taken. By the chair
of the French department.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 08:37:00 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:37:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
References: <404EC8A8.22770.1525C2@localhost>
Message-ID: <009f01c406a4$c59c1400$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 9 Mar 2004 at 22:38, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > What about the first-rate poets constantly trashed by the morons
> > giving money and awards to tenth-raters instead of to them?
>
> What about an example.

Ooops, caught again by our master of sham-detection.  I don't know of any
first-rate poet who is not getting anything from the morons giving money and
grants to tenth-raters.

--Bob G.




From MillB at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 09:55:59 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:55:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Free Book
Message-ID: <6B3FB777.19E7E4CC.0000FC2C@aol.com>

Hal,

It's America, home of the "let's make a deal" mentality.  You should have played the money card, like people trying to find homes for stray animals: they charge a fee.  I will bet if you put a sign out there, "Two for 5$" all of the books would be gone.  No one wants anything for free (it MUST be a trick, or the book MUST be awful).

Mill


From MillB at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 10:03:01 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:03:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <2881A34E.45107957.0000FC2C@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 7:50:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> On 9 Mar 2004 at 22:38, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > What about the first-rate poets constantly trashed by the morons
> > giving money and awards to tenth-raters instead of to 
> them?
> 
> What about an example.

Eleanor Wilner (from Copper Canyon Press)


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Mar 10 10:04:55 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:04:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
In-Reply-To: <65.23edfaad.2d800daa@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BC748AB7.73FD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 3/10/04 12:20 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

In a message dated 3/9/2004 7:04:17 PM Central Standard Time,
JforJames at aol.com writes:

See <http://www.smartishpace.com/home/reviews.html>


Barf. 
---------------------

Why, just yesterday, Sam, you instructed us to "keep the rude comments
down."  You are large, you contain multitudes, I guess!

Seriously, though I enjoy listening to vomit sounds as much as the next
poet, I'd like even more a comment or two on what provoked this particular
hork.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Mar 10 10:07:36 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:07:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <2881A34E.45107957.0000FC2C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <404EE8E8.26422.931F10@localhost>

> > On 9 Mar 2004 at 22:38, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > What about the first-rate poets constantly trashed by the morons
> > > giving money and awards to tenth-raters instead of to 
> > them?
> > 
> > What about an example.
 
On 10 Mar 2004 at 10:03, MillB at aol.com wrote:
> Eleanor Wilner (from Copper Canyon Press)

She's a first-rate poet trashed by morons giving 10th-raters prizes? 
Which morons? Which 10th raters got what prizes Ms Wilner deserved?






From MillB at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 10:15:45 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:15:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] First Rate
Message-ID: <4E0179F4.6C600205.0000FC2C@aol.com>

Eleanor Wilner is often overlooked by awards and prizes.  If I were on every committee for granting money for poetry, I could tell you exactly which tenth raters were given prizes over her, but (alas) I have no such inside track; it's just my opinion.


From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Mar 10 10:33:17 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:33:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zelda
References: <001f01c4068b$d01367d0$d51c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <001901c406b5$034ea730$8f0b9942@Helen>

Thanks Anny, sad but wonderful
h
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:38 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Zelda


  From Today in Literature:
  http://www.todayinliterature.com/today-ct.asp?id=3/10/2004

  On this day in 1948, F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife, Zelda, and eight other patients were killed in a fire at the Highland Mental Hospital in Asheville, North Carolina. Zelda's first breakdown in 1930 resulted in a sixteen-month stay in a Swiss clinic, and she spent six and a half of the next eight years in American institutions. Though discharged to her mother's care in the Spring of 1940 -- Fitzgerald was in Hollywood, and just months away from a fatal heart attack -- she would periodically readmit herself to Highland. It was during one of these stays that she and the others died, unable to flee the rooms into which they had been locked for the evening.

  While the popular press had elevated them to the legendary glitter-couple, and then reduced them to a Jazz Age parable, the Fitzgeralds themselves spent their last decade struggling towards a clearer understanding of what had happened to the people they had once been. In one letter to Zelda after her first breakdown in 1930, Fitzgerald's attempts to find cause and blame arrive at this: "You were going crazy and calling it genius -- I was going to ruin and calling it anything that came to hand." One letter from Zelda five years later -- after countless pleas to her husband that he "Please, please let me out now," or that he "come to me and tell me how I was" -- seems to finally accept defeat:


    Dearest and always Dearest Scott:

    I am sorry too that there should be nothing to greet you but an empty shell.... Had I any feelings they would all be bent in gratitude to you and in sorrow that all of my life there should not even be the smallest relic of the love and beauty that we started with to offer you at the end.... It is a shame that we should have met in harshness and coldness where there was once so much tenderness and so many dreams.... I love you anyway -- even if there isn't any me or any love or even any life. 
  Fitzgerald kept writing to her until the end, and writing whatever else he could manage in order to support her. Two last letters, both written on the same day a week before his death, are to the taxman and to daughter Scottie. The first asks for more time, the second says that "the insane are always mere guests on earth, eternal strangers carrying around broken decalogues that they cannot read." Zelda's autobiographical novel, "Save Me The Waltz," tries to get some perspective on what happened; over her last years she struggled with a novel about Jacob and Janno, another two who were beautiful and self-damned. In one fragment Janno talks of her husband's death, though "He had been gone all summer and all winter for about a hundred years":


    She remembered the ragged edges of his cuffs, and the neatness of his worn possessions, and the pleasure he always had from his pile of sheer linen handkerchiefs. When she had been away, or sick or something, Jacob never forgot the flowers, or big expensive books full of compensatory ideas about life. He never forgot to make life seem useful and promising, or forgot the grace of good friendship, or the use of making an effort. . . .
    Nobody has ever measured, even the poets, how much a heart can hold. . . . When one really can't stand anymore, the limits are transgressed, and one thing has become another; poetry registers itself on the hospital charts, and heart-break has to be taken care of. . . . But heartbreak perishes in public institutions. 


        - SK 

       




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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 10:38:37 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:38:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <1d1.1ba0601d.2d80907d@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 9:05:16 AM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> Barf. 
> ---------------------
> 
> Why, just yesterday, Sam, you instructed us to "keep the rude comments
> down."  You are large, you contain multitudes, I guess!
> 
> Seriously, though I enjoy listening to vomit sounds as much as the next
> poet, I'd like even more a comment or two on what provoked this particular
> hork.
> 
Just the o'erweening preening of Mr. Shankar.  Barf.  Did you barf too?
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Mar 10 10:50:21 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:50:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
References: <33550264.154F467E.0000FC2C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011f01c406b7$656387e0$8f0b9942@Helen>

I would agree - it was not (on my part) directed at her specifically -
it was just a list of sour grapes to make up a rubric, have some fun.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <MillB at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart


> You know, I was just joking around. . .I see no difference in what I wrote
and what others jokingly posted about "going to school with the judges" or
"enjoying donuts and coffee."  It was not necessarily a comment on the
quality of Stewart's work. I was just having fun building a rubric.  I toyed
with adding the line "Mostly drinking with the judges" too!
>
> --Sorry if I offended anyone :)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 10 11:03:39 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:03:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Free Book
In-Reply-To: <6B3FB777.19E7E4CC.0000FC2C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEEEIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

    
{    It's America, home of the "let's make a deal" mentality.  You should have played the money card, like people trying to 
{    find homes for stray animals: they charge a fee.  I will bet if you put a sign out there, "Two for 5$" all of the 
{    books would be gone.  No one wants anything for free (it MUST be a trick, or the book MUST be awful).
{    
{    Mill

Actually, here in New York City, that's not always the case 
(though I wasn't the one conducting the book giveaway). Last 
term I had a student who for a while came to class morning 
after morning carrying an armful of books someone had set
out on a doorstep to be taken by whoever wanted them. Her
excitement about her finds was wonderful. 

And that's not uncommon--down here below 14th St., anyway.
Even here in our building, a little pile of books set on the floor
near a trash chute will be gone within an hour. Book orphans
often sit on doorsteps and at street corners, but they usually
don't sit for long.

Even more unusual--Lynda and I were walking home along
Bank St. one day when we found that someone had set out
dozens and dozens of paintings, waiting for collection. We
took only one, an unsigned painting of a cow, which sits 
in our hallway as we speak (so to speak), but one young
woman we saw hauled away half a dozen or so, including
one we would have liked to have taken. 

Hal         Not responsible for typographical terrorists.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 10 11:06:08 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:06:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
In-Reply-To: <011f01c406b7$656387e0$8f0b9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEEFIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    I would agree - it was not (on my part) directed at her specifically -
{    it was just a list of sour grapes to make up a rubric, have some fun.

One of my all-time favorite put-downs:  "Hey, I could
have done that myself!"

Hal           "Always treat language like a dangerous toy."
                                         --Anselm Hollo

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Mar 10 11:28:07 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:28:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart reviewed
References: <BC73EDD5.73DA%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <019101c406bc$ac8fa590$8f0b9942@Helen>

Maybe twenty years ago (around 1985 or following) Greg Kuzma wrote a
commentary in POETRY called "The Catastrophe of Creative Writing" and it wa
based on a review of "The Catastrophe of Rainbows" by Martha Collins.

He talks about the once antiagonism between academics and writers and goes
on to say that now they are the same   He goes on to say that her poetry is
not personal since being personal is taking responsibility for what one says
and things.  In what he called workshop poetry - there is no immediate
involvement with life.  Since the poetry is about the manipulation of
language - it can be
taught rather than having to be lived.

He goes on to explain "workshop" poems.  The poet is not involved with the
world and does not engage or risk anything.  Rather the audience is made to
direct criticism at itself for its own failures.    Example, I write about
the
Holocaust (hot button subject) though I have no real
connection or enagagement with those issues.  I just needed a topic.

I wish I could reprint the whole essay but I copied it on a Xerox with a bad
fuser and it is (like much poetry )
fading slowly away. (Being rubbed out).

This reminded me so much of the review of Stewart's work only it was
negative rather than positive.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 10:55 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart reviewed


> More on Susan Stewart:
>
> A review of *Columbarium* by Ray McDaniel at *Constant Critic*:
>
>
http://www.constantcritic.com/archive.cgi?rev=Ray_McDaniel&name=Columbarium
>
>
> Also, Edward Hirsch featured the book in his Poet's Choice column for 2/8:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A17417-2004Feb5?language=printer
>
>
> And Stewart has a page at the Academy of American Poets site, with links
to
> a # of poems:
>
> http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?45442B7C000C04000B
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Mar 10 11:34:24 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:34:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart
Message-ID: <410-220043310163424139@M2W072.mail2web.com>

Got judged most often by those you went to bed with

Original Message:
-----------------
From:  MillB at aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:36:40 EST
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart


Rubric

    Most nearly approaches work done by
    intro. students

    Most nearly goes with breakfast donuts and coffee

   Mostly translated from "the French" by someone who   does not speak
French

   Went to school with the most judges
      Went to bed with the most judges


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Mar 10 12:18:47 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:18:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A232@ariel.ripon.edu>

> 	Barf. 
> 	---------------------
> 
> 	Why, just yesterday, Sam, you instructed us to "keep the rude
> comments
> 	down."  You are large, you contain multitudes, I guess!
> 
> 	Seriously, though I enjoy listening to vomit sounds as much as the
> next
> 	poet, I'd like even more a comment or two on what provoked this
> particular
> 	hork.
> 
> 
> 
> Just the o'erweening preening of Mr. Shankar.  Barf.  Did you barf too?
-------------------

Naw, I would have had to finish reading the article to do that.  The bodily
sound I emitted was a snore, which is my default response to symposia with
titles like "Poetry & Moral Vision."  I like poetry and I am in favor of
moral vision, but seem to be allergic to such gatherings, which attract
platitude like my dog attracts burdocks.
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Wed Mar 10 12:25:44 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:25:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A232@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <F673234F-72B7-11D8-AF03-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 12:18 PM, Graham, David wrote:
> Naw, I would have had to finish reading the article to do that.  The 
> bodily
> sound I emitted was a snore, which is my default response to symposia 
> with
> titles like "Poetry & Moral Vision."  I like poetry and I am in favor 
> of
> moral vision, but seem to be allergic to such gatherings, which attract
> platitude like my dog attracts burdocks.

Hey, at least you didn't have to sit through it.

Wendy, who did have to sit through it


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 12:26:34 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:26:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <1a4.20fc4b41.2d80a9ca@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 11:19:35 AM Central Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> >    Barf. 
> >    ---------------------
> >
> >    Why, just yesterday, Sam, you instructed us to "keep the rude
> >comments
> >    down."  You are large, you contain multitudes, I guess!
> >
> >    Seriously, though I enjoy listening to vomit sounds as much as the
> >next
> >    poet, I'd like even more a comment or two on what provoked this
> >particular
> >    hork.
> >
> >
> >
> >Just the o'erweening preening of Mr. Shankar.  Barf.  Did you barf too?
> -------------------
> 
> Naw, I would have had to finish reading the article to do that.  The bodily
> sound I emitted was a snore, which is my default response to symposia with
> titles like "Poetry &Moral Vision."  I like poetry and I am in favor of
> moral vision, but seem to be allergic to such gatherings, which attract
> platitude like my dog attracts burdocks.
> >============================================
> >David Graham
> >Department of English, Ripon College
> >grahamd at ripon.edu
> >      Home Page:  
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >      My Poetry Library:
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> >Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> >============================================
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

You're a paragon of sanity, David, but you need to get out more.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 12:32:07 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:32:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <13.293af74b.2d80ab17@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 11:26:27 AM Central Standard Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: 
> Hey, at least you didn't have to sit through it.
> 
> Wendy, who did have to sit through it
> 
> 
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu

Hey, I forgot that's where you are!  How was it?
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 12:36:48 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:36:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
References: <1d1.1ba0601d.2d80907d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <010c01c406c6$45d56240$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Is this Shankar the musician?  I couldn't do more than skim his agitcrappo essay, which struck me as standard puritanical leftist gush about poetry.

--Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Mar 10 12:42:52 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:42:52 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zelda
References: <001f01c4068b$d01367d0$d51c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <001901c406b5$034ea730$8f0b9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <006701c406c7$1d9eee30$ed1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

If I remember right, in her autobiography - she often went back home to see her mother for a short stay - the last time she told her something like, "don't wait for me any more". As if she knew.
  From: Helen Ruggieri 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 4:33 PM


  Thanks Anny, sad but wonderful
  h
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From MillB at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 12:44:36 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:44:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sylvia Plath
Message-ID: <5F56E048.45A59892.0000FC2C@aol.com>

Greetings,

I am in the middle of my neighbor Cristina Nehring's interesting article in the Atlantic, "Domesticated Goddess."  Has anyone else read it?  So far, it offers a few new "takes" on an overly done subject.

Mill


From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Mar 10 12:53:27 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:53:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A234@ariel.ripon.edu>


> You're a paragon of sanity, David, but you need to get out more.
> 
> 
Sam, don't be silly:  I owe all my sanity to *not* going out--at least not
to symposia on "poetry & moral vision" . . . .

Besides, I find it unpleasant to barf in public.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Wed Mar 10 12:54:47 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:54:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
In-Reply-To: <13.293af74b.2d80ab17@cs.com>
Message-ID: <0545CA4E-72BC-11D8-AF03-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 12:32 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> Hey, I forgot that's where you are!? How was it?

Just as platitude-packed as David guessed. But I recall being delighted 
anew by Rich, about whom I have decades of mixed feelings.  She was as 
sharp as ever and managed to cut through the ceremonial wooliness 
whenever she answered a question.  I'm glad the students had a chance 
to hear her.

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

                Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.
                                                       --Rumi




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Mar 10 13:01:14 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:01:14 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] p0es1s. Digitale Poesie
Message-ID: <008301c406c9$aea41ac0$ed1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

http://p0es1s.net/index.html

13.02. - 04.04.2004
Kulturforum
Potsdamer Platz, Berlin
Sonderausstellungshallen
Kunstbibliothek 
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Mar 10 12:52:12 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:52:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zelda
In-Reply-To: <001f01c4068b$d01367d0$d51c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <BC74B1EC.62A5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

My grandfather, Paul S. Lake Sr., knew Zelda and Scott Fitzgerald. When he
was manager of the Renert hotel in Baltimore, sometimes Scott and Zelda
would wake him up to open the hotel bar so they could have some drinks after
play rehearsals. I believe Zelda also spent some time in Sheppard-Pratt, a
mental institution in north Baltimore, during that time period.  My
grandfather had a couple of good stories about Scott, including one where my
grandfather had to let his daughter Scottie have dinner with his kids (my
dad and uncle) while Scott slept off a drunk upstairs in a hotel room.  My
parents still have a copy of Tender Is the Night inscribed by Fitzgerald to
my grandfather: ?To Paul Lake, with thanks for many kindnesses? and his
signature. Very cool, especially since I have the same name and may have the
book passed down to me someday.

Paul Lake



on 3/10/04 4:38 AM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:

> From Today in Literature:
> http://www.todayinliterature.com/today-ct.asp?id=3/10/2004
>  
> On this day in 1948, F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife, Zelda, and eight other
> patients were killed in a fire at the Highland Mental Hospital in Asheville,
> North Carolina. Zelda's first breakdown in 1930 resulted in a sixteen-month
> stay in a Swiss clinic, and she spent six and a half of the next eight years
> in American institutions. Though discharged to her mother's care in the Spring
> of 1940 -- Fitzgerald was in Hollywood, and just months away from a fatal
> heart attack -- she would periodically readmit herself to Highland. It was
> during one of these stays that she and the others died, unable to flee the
> rooms into which they had been locked for the evening.
> 
> While the popular press had elevated them to the legendary glitter-couple, and
> then reduced them to a Jazz Age parable, the Fitzgeralds themselves spent
> their last decade struggling towards a clearer understanding of what had
> happened to the people they had once been. In one letter to Zelda after her
> first breakdown in 1930, Fitzgerald's attempts to find cause and blame arrive
> at this: "You were going crazy and calling it genius -- I was going to ruin
> and calling it anything that came to hand." One letter from Zelda five years
> later -- after countless pleas to her husband that he "Please, please let me
> out now," or that he "come to me and tell me how I was" -- seems to finally
> accept defeat:
> 
>> Dearest and always Dearest Scott:
>> 
>> I am sorry too that there should be nothing to greet you but an empty
>> shell.... Had I any feelings they would all be bent in gratitude to you and
>> in sorrow that all of my life there should not even be the smallest relic of
>> the love and beauty that we started with to offer you at the end.... It is a
>> shame that we should have met in harshness and coldness where there was once
>> so much tenderness and so many dreams.... I love you anyway -- even if there
>> isn't any me or any love or even any life.
> 
> Fitzgerald kept writing to her until the end, and writing whatever else he
> could manage in order to support her. Two last letters, both written on the
> same day a week before his death, are to the taxman and to daughter Scottie.
> The first asks for more time, the second says that "the insane are always mere
> guests on earth, eternal strangers carrying around broken decalogues that they
> cannot read." Zelda's autobiographical novel, "Save Me The Waltz," tries to
> get some perspective on what happened; over her last years she struggled with
> a novel about Jacob and Janno, another two who were beautiful and self-damned.
> In one fragment Janno talks of her husband's death, though "He had been gone
> all summer and all winter for about a hundred years":
> 
>> She remembered the ragged edges of his cuffs, and the neatness of his worn
>> possessions, and the pleasure he always had from his pile of sheer linen
>> handkerchiefs. When she had been away, or sick or something, Jacob never
>> forgot the flowers, or big expensive books full of compensatory ideas about
>> life. He never forgot to make life seem useful and promising, or forgot the
>> grace of good friendship, or the use of making an effort. . . .
>> Nobody has ever measured, even the poets, how much a heart can hold. . . .
>> When one really can't stand anymore, the limits are transgressed, and one
>> thing has become another; poetry registers itself on the hospital charts, and
>> heart-break has to be taken care of. . . . But heartbreak perishes in public
>> institutions. 
> 
> 
> - SK 
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Mar 10 13:16:09 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:16:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zelda
References: <BC74B1EC.62A5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <009701c406cb$c33c8e70$ed1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Re: [New-Poetry] ZeldaFitzgerald was one of my first American cultural addictions, I remember in New Orleans I was able to find some magazines at the market they had on Saturday mornings down the Mississippi with his interviews, so it was old papers with fleas, red ripe tomatoes, and a most complete sense of freedom and happiness, those were times that if you knew how to walk and look for, you were able to find. Now you have everything on the net, not that I despise it. 
Then I got in my hands Zelda's autobiography, and what impressed me most was that she was born on my same day - July 24 - in the year in which my grandmother was born, 1900. I know, it is all delirious, but in those years - I had barely turned 20 - I was full of ideas and life was meant to be what I wanted it to be. 
So thank you very much for this marvelous story you are telling us, till soon, Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zelda


  My grandfather, Paul S. Lake Sr., knew Zelda and Scott Fitzgerald. When he was manager of the Renert hotel in Baltimore, sometimes Scott and Zelda would wake him up to open the hotel bar so they could have some drinks after play rehearsals. I believe Zelda also spent some time in Sheppard-Pratt, a mental institution in north Baltimore, during that time period.  My grandfather had a couple of good stories about Scott, including one where my grandfather had to let his daughter Scottie have dinner with his kids (my dad and uncle) while Scott slept off a drunk upstairs in a hotel room.  My parents still have a copy of Tender Is the Night inscribed by Fitzgerald to my grandfather: "To Paul Lake, with thanks for many kindnesses" and his signature. Very cool, especially since I have the same name and may have the book passed down to me someday.

  Paul Lake

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 13:17:09 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:17:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <131.2b042747.2d80b5a5@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 11:54:19 AM Central Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 
> >You're a paragon of sanity, David, but you need to get out more.
> >
> >
> Sam, don't be silly:  I owe all my sanity to *not* going out--at least not
> to symposia on "poetry &moral vision" . . . .
> 
> Besides, I find it unpleasant to barf in public.

Obviously you were never a frat-rat.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Mar 10 13:05:47 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:05:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <BC74B51B.62A7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>



"To become a token woman," she said at the time, "whether you win the Nobel
Prize or merely get tenure at the cost of denying your sisters, is to become
something less than a man...since men are loyal at least to their own
worldview, their laws of brotherhood and self-interest."

Men loyal to their laws of brotherhood and self-interest?

Then why have men enacted laws to exempt women and draft men and send them
into combat? Enacted laws that give women custody of their children in
divorces in most cases? Passed laws giving women preference over men when
applying for jobs? Where's the men's caucus in Congress, the men's center's
on campuses, Men's Studies programs, the National Organization for Men?

Some brotherhood. Some self-interest.


---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 13:18:08 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:18:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
Message-ID: <131.2b042749.2d80b5e0@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 11:55:14 AM Central Standard Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: 
> Just as platitude-packed as David guessed. But I recall being delighted 
> anew by Rich, about whom I have decades of mixed feelings.  She was as 
> sharp as ever and managed to cut through the ceremonial wooliness 
> whenever she answered a question.  I'm glad the students had a chance 
> to hear her.

Her remarks were certainly better than all the fluff and puff surrounding 
her.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 13:34:02 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:34:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <19e.214a88b4.2d80b99a@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 12:18:25 PM Central Standard Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> 
> "To become a token woman," she said at the time, "whether you win the Nobel
> Prize or merely get tenure at the cost of denying your sisters, is to become
> something less than a man...since men are loyal at least to their own
> worldview, their laws of brotherhood and self-interest."
> 
> Men loyal to their laws of brotherhood and self-interest?
> 
> Then why have men enacted laws to exempt women and draft men and send them
> into combat? Enacted laws that give women custody of their children in
> divorces in most cases? Passed laws giving women preference over men when
> applying for jobs? Where's the men's caucus in Congress, the men's center's
> on campuses, Men's Studies programs, the National Organization for Men?
> 
> Some brotherhood. Some self-interest.
> 
> 
Rich was the ultimate token woman in her early years and has turned 180 
degrees in every respect since then.  I've often wondered what all the men who 
palled around with her in the 50s and early 60s think about this.  I guess she's 
been experiencing some guilt over her own careerism for a good while now.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Mar 10 13:45:23 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:45:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <19e.214a88b4.2d80b99a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BC74BE63.62B5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 3/10/04 12:34 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/10/2004 12:18:25 PM Central Standard Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>> 
>> "To become a token woman," she said at the time, "whether you win the Nobel
>> Prize or merely get tenure at the cost of denying your sisters, is to become
>> something less than a man...since men are loyal at least to their own
>> worldview, their laws of brotherhood and self-interest."
>> 
>> Men loyal to their laws of brotherhood and self-interest?
>> 
>> Then why have men enacted laws to exempt women and draft men and send them
>> into combat? Enacted laws that give women custody of their children in
>> divorces in most cases? Passed laws giving women preference over men when
>> applying for jobs? Where's the men's caucus in Congress, the men's center's
>> on campuses, Men's Studies programs, the National Organization for Men?
>> 
>> Some brotherhood. Some self-interest.
>> 
>> 
> Rich was the ultimate token woman in her early years and has turned 180
> degrees in every respect since then.  I've often wondered what all the men who
> palled around with her in the 50s and early 60s think about this.  I guess
> she's been experiencing some guilt over her own careerism for a good while
> now. 

You?re probably right. Her later books attacking the established order, with
its capitalism, sexism, and patriarchy did provide some pretty good
royalties and speaking fees.  
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From schroesd at adelphia.net  Wed Mar 10 14:42:06 2004
From: schroesd at adelphia.net (Steven Schroeder)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:42:06 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision
References: <131.2b042747.2d80b5a5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <009301c406d7$c5562930$99171543@STEVECOMPUTER>

Or tried to walk around downtown Colorado Springs after a St. Patrick's Day bender.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Moral Vision


  In a message dated 3/10/2004 11:54:19 AM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 

    >You're a paragon of sanity, David, but you need to get out more.
    >
    >
    Sam, don't be silly:  I owe all my sanity to *not* going out--at least not
    to symposia on "poetry &moral vision" . . . .

    Besides, I find it unpleasant to barf in public.


  Obviously you were never a frat-rat. 
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Mar 10 14:41:35 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:41:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision
References: <1d1.1ba0601d.2d80907d@cs.com> <010c01c406c6$45d56240$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <024101c406d7$b38f8840$8f0b9942@Helen>

It sounded better when he sang it, but then we had to 
sit ar selves down.  

Makes this an anonymous send.  No way I would take credit for that pun.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich on Poetry and Moral Vision


  Is this Shankar the musician?  I couldn't do more than skim his agitcrappo essay, which struck me as standard puritanical leftist gush about poetry.

  --Bob G.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Mar 10 15:02:46 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:02:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerry Quotes Profrock--and Gunga Din
Message-ID: <2221334.1078948966254.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Maureen Dowd on her interview with John Kerry: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/163947_dowd10.html


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Mar 10 15:16:31 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:16:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Kerry Quotes Prufrock
Message-ID: <BC74D3BF.62BB%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

More on Kerry and Prufrock.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/goldblatt200403100918.asp

---
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 15:31:47 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:31:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerry Quotes Profrock--and Gunga Din
Message-ID: <194.25cd16bd.2d80d533@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 2:04:02 PM Central Standard Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes: 
> 
> Maureen Dowd on her interview with John Kerry: 
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/163947_dowd10.html
> 
Well, if he doesn't get elected President maybe he can lobby for head of the 
NEA.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 15:39:51 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:39:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerry Quotes Profrock--and Gunga Din
References: <194.25cd16bd.2d80d533@cs.com>
Message-ID: <01f501c406df$d8069440$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



Well, if he doesn't get elected President maybe he can lobby for head of the NEA. 

I dunno.  Eliot hasn't been dead a full hundred years yet, has he?

--Bob G.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Mar 10 15:59:43 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:59:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Kerry Quotes Prufrock
Message-ID: <6861515.1078952383777.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 03:16PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

>More on Kerry and Prufrock.
>
>http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/goldblatt200403100918.asp
>
>---
>

Yeah, I could have done without the Bush-sniping, too, even though I won't vote for him. Nor does Kerry's quoting Eliot have anything to do with why I'll vote for him--and I'm damned glad we didn't get treated to the poem about the deer. I was just interested to see poems even mentioned at that level of politics, especially when it's not Maya Angelou.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From jdavis at iaiancad.org  Wed Mar 10 16:12:27 2004
From: jdavis at iaiancad.org (Jon Davis)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:12:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eleanor Wilner
Message-ID: <4618d41e84.41e844618d@iaiancad.org>

On the subject of unrewarded poets:  I'd trade all of my trophies for 
Eleanor Wilner's 1991 MacArthur Fellowship.

Jon Davis 

(breaking from the ranks of the lurkers for information purposes only)



From jdavis at iaiancad.org  Wed Mar 10 16:14:21 2004
From: jdavis at iaiancad.org (Jon Davis)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:14:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eleanor Wilner
Message-ID: <410584093a.4093a41058@iaiancad.org>

On the subject of unrewarded poets:  I'd trade all of my trophies for 
Eleanor Wilner's 1991 MacArthur Fellowship.

Jon Davis

(out of the land of the lurkers for information purposes only)



From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Mar 10 16:37:02 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:37:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alas, I spoke too soon..
Message-ID: <13572600.1078954622495.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Apparently Kerry did read his deer poem to the Washington Post. That article has disappeared into the for-pay archives, but George Wallace at The Fool in the Forest ( http://declarationsandexclusions.typepad.com/foolblog/ )caught it through Mickey Kaus at Slate:

I had a talk with a deer today/we met upon the road some way . . . between his frequent snorts/He asked me if I sought his pelt/cause if I did he said he felt/quite out of sorts!

Unlike Mr. Wallace, I don't want to know more. But Sam, I think this disqulaifies him from the NEA.


-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 16:54:24 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:54:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eleanor Wilner
References: <410584093a.4093a41058@iaiancad.org>
Message-ID: <023801c406ea$4202cc10$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On the subject of unrewarded poets:  I'd trade all of my trophies for
> Eleanor Wilner's 1991 MacArthur Fellowship.
>
> Jon Davis

I dunno.  I suppose you could tell yourself that you were nonetheless not
tenth-rate as a poet, or maybe that if you really worked hard at it, you
could improve, but, still, if you had any pride in what you composed, it'd
be a difficult blow to recover from, I should think.

--Bob G., on the short list for Poet Least Likely To Win a MacArthur Grant
twenty years straight, but humble about it.

Note: my blog now has a Gallery and looks to last at least another week
after five weeks! It's at
http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html





From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Mar 10 18:10:20 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:10:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
References: <19e.214a88b4.2d80b99a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <02cd01c406f4$dc5a0350$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not going to start resenting some people because they have it an I don't. Rich is a good poet who's gotten recognition.

Tad
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich


  In a message dated 3/10/2004 12:18:25 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 


    "To become a token woman," she said at the time, "whether you win the Nobel
    Prize or merely get tenure at the cost of denying your sisters, is to become
    something less than a man...since men are loyal at least to their own
    worldview, their laws of brotherhood and self-interest."

    Men loyal to their laws of brotherhood and self-interest?

    Then why have men enacted laws to exempt women and draft men and send them
    into combat? Enacted laws that give women custody of their children in
    divorces in most cases? Passed laws giving women preference over men when
    applying for jobs? Where's the men's caucus in Congress, the men's center's
    on campuses, Men's Studies programs, the National Organization for Men?

    Some brotherhood. Some self-interest.



  Rich was the ultimate token woman in her early years and has turned 180 degrees in every respect since then.  I've often wondered what all the men who palled around with her in the 50s and early 60s think about this.  I guess she's been experiencing some guilt over her own careerism for a good while now. 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 18:11:00 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:11:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] good poetry is so depressing...
Message-ID: <65.23feff49.2d80fa84@aol.com>

I, too, am appalled to think of students graduating from college not having 
read Homer, Plato, Virgil, Milton, Tolstoy - all writers, dead white Western 
men though they be, whose works have meant a great deal to me. As a teacher of 
literature and of writing, I too have seen at first hand how ill-educated many 
students are, and how little aware they are of this important fact about 
themselves. Last year I taught a graduate seminar in the writing of poetry. None of 
my students had read more than a smattering of poetry by anyone, male or 
female, published more than ten years ago. Robert Lowell was as far outside their 
frame of reference as Alexander Pope. When I gently suggested to one student 
that it might benefit her to read some poetry if she planned to spend her life 
writing it, she told me that yes, she knew she should read more but when she 
encountered a really good poem it only made her depressed.
Katha Pollitt
   --Why We Read: Canon to the Right of Me...



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 18:37:29 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:37:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
Message-ID: <db.562ba93.2d8100b9@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/10/04 6:51:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Actually we don't have to buy the book, Thom.  We know from who published 
it 
> and the award it just got that it's got about one chance in a thousand of 
> being worth reading, and no chances in a million of being worth studying.
>  
Bob, is that the "royal we" you're using? If not, please note that
"I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Grummanist party."
Finnegan


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Mar 10 19:01:26 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:01:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <35.4483a486.2d810656@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 5:11:46 PM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
> 
> Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not going to 
> start resenting some people because they have it an I don't. Rich is a good poet 
> who's gotten recognition.
>   
>  Tad
> 
Nobody's saying that.  It's just that I think Rich herself ultimately came to 
resent it.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 20:11:03 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:11:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
References: <19e.214a88b4.2d80b99a@cs.com> <02cd01c406f4$dc5a0350$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <033701c40705$baf0a320$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not going to start resenting some people because they have it an I don't. Rich is a good poet who's gotten recognition.

  Tad

  What most of us resent, I think, is not skill at careerism, but the incredible lack of interest in anything but poets' (and other artists') skill at careerism by just about all who have the power to help them.  I think it's mainly because people who are creative rarely have the time or inclination to get high enough in any Establishment to be able to help others who are creative, so the ones with power are generally people with no ability to recognize worthwhile art, or recognize it as anything other than a threat.

  --Bob G.
   
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 20:22:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:22:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
References: <db.562ba93.2d8100b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <034b01c40707$5dc89b10$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>
> > Actually we don't have to buy the book, Thom.  We know from who
published
> it
> > and the award it just got that it's got about one chance in a thousand
of
> > being worth reading, and no chances in a million of being worth
studying.
> >
> Bob, is that the "royal we" you're using? If not, please note that
> "I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Grummanist party."
> Finnegan

The use of "we" for scorn works so well, though, James!  And at least I
didn't say, "Actually those of us with functioning minds and any knowledge
of the American poetry scene don't have to buy the book, Thom.  We know from
who published it and the award it just got that it's got about one chance in
a thousand of being worth reading, and no chances in a million of being
worth studying."

Okay, as you--I'm sure--understand, I'm exaggerating just a little.  But I
note that no one seems yet to have taken up Thom's suggestion.

--Bob G.





From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 20:39:46 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:39:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
Message-ID: <1c7.163ef426.2d811d62@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 8:24:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> But I
> note that no one seems yet to have taken up Thom's suggestion.
> 
> 

Actually, I'm going to get a hold of the book. I'm intriqued
now and will judge for myself, as we all must.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 21:10:09 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:10:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
References: <1c7.163ef426.2d811d62@aol.com>
Message-ID: <037401c4070d$fca900c0$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


But I
note that no one seems yet to have taken up Thom's suggestion.




  Actually, I'm going to get a hold of the book. I'm intriqued
  now and will judge for myself, as we all must.
  Finnegan 

  Just make sure not to buy a book by someone writing poetry that uses techniques not in wide-spread use before 1950 to compare her work to.  

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 21:31:48 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:31:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
Message-ID: <155.2f805e7f.2d812994@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/10/2004 9:11:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Just make sure not to buy a book by someone writing poetry that uses 
> techniques not in wide-spread use before 1950 to compare her work to.  
>  
> --Bob G.
> 

Bob, I'm not impressed by mere techniques, regardless of
their advent. Besides, the best poetry always defies the temporal.

Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 10 22:16:06 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:16:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
References: <155.2f805e7f.2d812994@aol.com>
Message-ID: <039801c40717$335afde0$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

    Just make sure not to buy a book by someone writing poetry that uses techniques not in wide-spread use before 1950 to compare her work to.  

    --Bob G.



  Bob, I'm not impressed by mere techniques, regardless of
  their advent. Besides, the best poetry always defies the temporal.

  Finnegan 


  Well, to me, "mere technique" is the only difference between prose and poetry.  And freshness is essential; otherwise, why not just read your favorite Shakespeare sonnet over and over again for the rest of your life?  Effective new techniques are not the only road to freshness, but they're the only sure one.

  I'd love to think that poetry is immune from obsolescence, but I can't believe, as I've argued before, that the arts are somehow miraculously unimprovable, unlike technology.

  But I guarantee that those snapping up collections of poetry that win prizes and snubbing collections of poetry that use new techniques will never have to confront evidence that artistic progress may be possible, even in poetry. 

  --Bob G.
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Mar 10 23:48:36 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:48:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
References: <35.4483a486.2d810656@cs.com>
Message-ID: <03ed01c40724$1dae5d40$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Understood. I was just saying she should give herself a break.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich


  In a message dated 3/10/2004 5:11:46 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 


    Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not going to start resenting some people because they have it an I don't. Rich is a good poet who's gotten recognition.
      
    Tad


  Nobody's saying that.  It's just that I think Rich herself ultimately came to resent it. 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Mar 11 06:54:51 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:54:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
References: <19e.214a88b4.2d80b99a@cs.com> <02cd01c406f4$dc5a0350$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <033701c40705$baf0a320$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <007301c4075f$aa78fd80$361c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

There is some truth in what Bob is saying. A friend of mine who is both an artist and a Professor at the Art Academy, told me of the mess of his life. "Presentialism" - the act of being present at every opening becomes a must, otherwise people forget you right there, which is something an artist cannot afford (and Warhol taught us the lesson).
As per poetry or narrative, one has to be the manager of her/himself to be able to succeed. And as Tad said, it is a talent to be organized to the point of knowing how to push your work ahead. Something which escapes me deeply.
Anny
  From: Bob Grumman 
  Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:11 AM


  Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not going to start resenting some people because they have it an I don't. Rich is a good poet who's gotten recognition.

    Tad

    What most of us resent, I think, is not skill at careerism, but the incredible lack of interest in anything but poets' (and other artists') skill at careerism by just about all who have the power to help them.  I think it's mainly because people who are creative rarely have the time or inclination to get high enough in any Establishment to be able to help others who are creative, so the ones with power are generally people with no ability to recognize worthwhile art, or recognize it as anything other than a threat.

    --Bob G.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 07:26:03 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:26:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <35.4483a486.2d810656@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4050148B.19655.9A25B@localhost>

> tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
>     Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not
>     going to start resenting some people because they have it an I
>     don't....<

Yeah, and torturing people is damned hard, too -- if you're not 
pretty good at it your subjects keep dying on you, the ungrateful 
bastards. It's a skill, like any other. And talk about skills that 
are difficult! What about dictator? Man, if you look at how long it 
takes and all the stuff you have to do to get to be dictator, and 
then reflect on how long the average dictator is in power, well, you 
can see that it's a skill, like any other. Why resent people who 
happen to be good at things like torture and political 
totalitarianism just because they have the skills and you don't?

Marcus






From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Mar 11 07:32:18 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:32:18 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
References: <4050148B.19655.9A25B@localhost>
Message-ID: <00af01c40764$e4a725e0$361c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

In Italian there is a way of defining people like you Marcus, "Bastian
contrari". You could oppose just about anything, what an amazing quality you
have there. And you are much better than me,
stupefied I am, Anny

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 1:26 PM


> > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:
> >     Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not
> >     going to start resenting some people because they have it an I
> >     don't....<
>
> Yeah, and torturing people is damned hard, too -- if you're not
> pretty good at it your subjects keep dying on you, the ungrateful
> bastards. It's a skill, like any other. And talk about skills that
> are difficult! What about dictator? Man, if you look at how long it
> takes and all the stuff you have to do to get to be dictator, and
> then reflect on how long the average dictator is in power, well, you
> can see that it's a skill, like any other. Why resent people who
> happen to be good at things like torture and political
> totalitarianism just because they have the skills and you don't?
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 07:53:00 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:53:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <033701c40705$baf0a320$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40501ADC.18567.224C66@localhost>

On 10 Mar 2004 at 20:11, Bob Grumman wrote:
> What most of us resent, I think, is not skill at careerism, but the
> incredible lack of interest in anything butpoets'(and other artists')
> skill at careerism by just about all who have the power to help them.
> I think it's mainly because people who are creative rarely have
> thetime or inclination to get high enough in any Establishment to be
> able to help others who are creative, so the ones with power are
> generally peoplewith no ability to recognize worthwhile art, or
> recognize it as anything other than a threat.<

Bravo!

Marcus






From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 08:07:44 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:07:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
In-Reply-To: <039801c40717$335afde0$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40501E50.3819.2FC8D3@localhost>

>     Just make sure not to buy a book by someone writing poetry that
>     uses techniques not in wide-spread use before 1950 to compare her
>     work to. 
>     --Bob G.

>     Bob, I'm not impressed by mere techniques, regardless of
>     their advent. Besides, the best poetry always defies the temporal.
>     --Finnegan 
 
On 10 Mar 2004 at 22:16, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Well, to me, "mere technique" is the only difference between prose and
> poetry. And freshness is essential; otherwise, why not just read your
> favorite Shakespeare sonnet over and over again for the rest of your
> life? Effective new techniques are not the only road to freshness, but
> they're the only sure one.<

Okay, I agree that "mere technique" is in fact the difference between 
prose and poetry, but not that new techniques are a sure road to 
freshness in poetry. The technique that separates poetry from prose 
is the technique of verse -- anything that aspires to be poetry has 
to be in verse or it cannot be regarded as poetry, though it may be 
regarded, metaphorically, analogically, as "poetic".

> I'd love to think that poetry is immune from obsolescence, but I can't
> believe, as I've argued before,that the arts are somehow miraculously
> unimprovable, unlike technology.<

Well, the analogy from technology to arts, or in other cases as 
you've argued, from sports to arts, is in fact a false analogy. What 
makes art "good" or "great" or "bad" or "terrible" is unmeasurable on 
an objective scale, though. You can test for how much antimony there 
is in your lead came; you can test for how many molecules of O there 
are in your H2SO4. But you can't test for how many poetry units there 
are in this sonnet or that mathemaku -- you just can't do it. All you 
can do is make a claim and try to support it subjectively with 
reasoning and examples. But supporting something subjectively with 
reasoning and examples is just not the same thing as testing for its 
molecular structure and claiming that it's steel instead of copper.

You've got ahold of a fundamentally wrong notion here, Bob: you 
cannot test objectively for poetry units, or art units -- at least, 
if it can be done no one has shown how yet. You yourself do not offer 
any objective tests, and offer no objective scale, that allows anyone 
to stick an "art thermometer" into the piece of art and read off the 
number of art units it contains uncontroversially and within a very 
small margin of error, without any particular expertise in art the 
way, for example, you can stick a thermometer in a beaker of liquid 
and tell how many units of heat there are in it.

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 08:32:25 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:32:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <00af01c40764$e4a725e0$361c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <40502419.32309.46638B@localhost>

> > > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:
> > >     Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm
> > >     not going to start resenting some people because they have it
> > >     an I don't....<
> >
> > Yeah, and torturing people is damned hard, too -- if you're not
> > pretty good at it your subjects keep dying on you, the ungrateful
> > bastards. It's a skill, like any other. And talk about skills that
> > are difficult! What about dictator? Man, if you look at how long it
> > takes and all the stuff you have to do to get to be dictator, and
> > then reflect on how long the average dictator is in power, well, you
> > can see that it's a skill, like any other. Why resent people who
> > happen to be good at things like torture and political
> > totalitarianism just because they have the skills and you don't?
> > Marcus

On 11 Mar 2004 at 13:32, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> In Italian there is a way of defining people like you Marcus,
> "Bastian contrari". You could oppose just about anything, what an
> amazing quality you have there. And you are much better than me,
> stupefied I am, Anny

Anny, I think you have mistaken the sarcastic tone and ironic intent 
of my post. I am not in favor of torture or dictatorship -- I am 
opposing the notion of tolerating careerism on the grounds that it is 
a skill by proposing, sarcastically and ironically, that so are 
torture and dictatorship skills -- and if we're going to be admiring 
skills as skills solely, out of context, irrespective of their social 
consequences or human meaning, then we're not really using good 
judgment.

Marcus







From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Thu Mar 11 08:46:21 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:46:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <20040311134621.93CC27278@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 08:53:47 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:53:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <20040311134621.93CC27278@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <4050291B.1178.59F322@localhost>

> > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
> >     Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm not
> >     going to start resenting some people because they have it an I
> >     don't....<
> 
> "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> Yeah, and torturing people is damned hard, too -- if you're not 
> pretty good at it your subjects keep dying on you, the ungrateful
> bastards. It's a skill, like any other. And talk about skills that are
> difficult! What about dictator? Man, if you look at how long it takes
> and all the stuff you have to do to get to be dictator, and then
> reflect on how long the average dictator is in power, well, you can
> see that it's a skill, like any other. Why resent people who happen to
> be good at things like torture and political totalitarianism just
> because they have the skills and you don't?

On 11 Mar 2004 at 5:46, CobbCoStudioArts wrote:
> Marcus,
> It is good that our presidents' tenure is shorter in length than
> the power of the "average dictator."  I wonder, are the most
> skilled dictators above average?i.e., more intelligent?, more
> ruthless?, more paranoic?, etc.

Hey Bob -- you think that the way to keep down the Irish population 
would be to use Irish babies as delicacies for English tables? Do you 
think that they would be best broiled, baked, or fried? Do you think 
dark meat or white meat would be better with a garlic sauce?

Marcus






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 11 09:01:32 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:01:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
References: <40501ADC.18567.224C66@localhost>
Message-ID: <009c01c40771$5ea929e0$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> On 10 Mar 2004 at 20:11, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > What most of us resent, I think, is not skill at careerism, but the
> > incredible lack of interest in anything but poets' (and other artists')
> > skill at careerism by just about all who have the power to help them.
> > I think it's mainly because people who are creative rarely have
> > the time or inclination to get high enough in any Establishment to be
> > able to help others who are creative, so the ones with power are
> > generally people with no ability to recognize worthwhile art, or
> > recognize it as anything other than a threat.<
> 
> Bravo!
> 
> Marcus

Ought-oh, whud I say, whud I say?!

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 11 09:12:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:12:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
References: <40501E50.3819.2FC8D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00a401c40772$f0eaea90$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Okay, I agree that "mere technique" is in fact the difference between
> prose and poetry, but not that new techniques are a sure road to
> freshness in poetry.

Anything new added to a poem HAS to make it fresh.  The problem is that
freshness is only one ingredient of an aesthetically effective poem, so
adding something new to a poem won't necessarily make it better than other
poems; it may, in fact, make it worse because the incoherence its new
element adds does more harm than the freshness it adds does good, or simply
because the poem is flawed in other ways.

>The technique that separates poetry from prose
> is the technique of verse -- anything that aspires to be poetry has
> to be in verse or it cannot be regarded as poetry, though it may be
> regarded, metaphorically, analogically, as "poetic".

Define "the technique of verse."  While you're at it, you might try to tell
us why it can't be improved.

 I'm not getting into another wrangle with you about what "objectivity"
means, Marcus, but do you really believe that anything that can't be
objectively measured, if there is such a thing, cannot be improved?

--Bob G.




From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Thu Mar 11 09:30:09 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:30:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <20040311143009.3221E3945@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 09:33:02 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:33:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
In-Reply-To: <00a401c40772$f0eaea90$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4050324E.23387.7DE31F@localhost>

> > Okay, I agree that "mere technique" is in fact the difference
> > between prose and poetry, but not that new techniques are a sure
> > road to freshness in poetry.

On 11 Mar 2004 at 9:12, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Anything new added to a poem HAS to make it fresh.<

The problem with this view is that there's really nothing "new" in 
the sense that adding it "has" to make it fresh. You could say that 
this poem must be read while flinging elephant shit at the audience --
 but is that really "new" or "fresh"? You could say that a random 
collection of letters was "new" but would it be "fresh" in any 
significant meaning of the word? Would every random collection of 
letters be "fresh"? How long before random collections of words as a 
"technique" is no longer "new"? How long before ANY "technique" is no 
longer "new"?

>  The problem is
> that freshness is only one ingredient of an aesthetically effective
> poem, so adding something new to a poem won't necessarily make it
> better than other poems; it may, in fact, make it worse because the
> incoherence its new element adds does more harm than the freshness it
> adds does good, or simply because the poem is flawed in other ways.<

But you were saying that newness and fresheness were "sure roads" to 
aesthetic excellence. Now you say they're not. Which is it, Bob?

> ... do you really believe that
> anything that can't be objectively measured, if there is such a
> thing, cannot be improved?<

No, of course it is not the case that anything that can't be 
objectively measured can't be improved -- it's that the improvement 
will be subjective, not objective -- not measurable. How much better 
a poet was Pope than Dryden or Dryden than Pope? Shakespeare than 
Chaucer or Chaucer than Shakespeare? Wilner than Collins or Collins 
than Wilner? The better/worse or improvement/deterioration notions in 
a subjective field, such as art, can only be claimed and argued 
subjectively -- there is no way to measure the number of art units 
there are in any given piece of art or in any artist's artistry, or 
in any artist. The best we can do is appreciate or dismiss using our 
subjective views and opinions, and support them as best we can by 
apposite examples and good reasoning.

But what's not good reasoning, Bob, is to claim that subjective 
opinion is objective measurement.

And as for "objectively measured, if there is such a thing", why do 
you suddenly back off, here, in that "if there is such a thing" 
clause, from your claim that not only is there such a thing as 
"objectively measured" but that you, yourself, Bob Grumman, have such 
an objective measure in hand, and can say that you can measure this 
or that poem, objectively? Do you see that by saying "objectively 
measured, if there is such a thing" you are undercutting your prior 
position that you can in fact objectively measure a poem and its 
place in poetic history by using your "taxonomy"?

Marcus






From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Mar 11 09:39:16 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:39:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Careerism
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A237@ariel.ripon.edu>

Three thoughts from David Budbill--


In the Ancient Tradition

I live within the ancient tradition:
the poet as mountain recluse,
withdrawn and hidden,
a life of genteel poverty,
a quiet life of meditation,

which gives me lots of time
to gnash my teeth and worry over
how I want to be known and read
by everyone and have admirers
everywhere and lots of money!

--------------
ON THE ROAD TO BUDDHAHOOD

Ever plainer.  Ever simpler.
Ever more ordinary.

My goal is to become a simpleton.

And from what everybody tells me
I am making real progress.
-----------------------------------


Dilemma

I want to be
famous
so I can be 
humble
about being
famous.

What good is my
humility
when I am 
stuck
in this
obscurity?

--David Budbill. *Moment to Moment:  Poems of a Mountain Recluse*.
Copper Canyon, 1999.



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 09:42:45 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:42:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <20040311143009.3221E3945@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <40503495.30463.86C716@localhost>

> > > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
> > >     Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm
> > >     not going to start resenting some people because they have it
> > >     an I don't....<
> > 
> > "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, and torturing people is damned hard, too -- if you're not
> > pretty good at it your subjects keep dying on you, the ungrateful
> > bastards. It's a skill, like any other. And talk about skills that
> > are difficult! What about dictator? Man, if you look at how long it
> > takes and all the stuff you have to do to get to be dictator, and
> > then reflect on how long the average dictator is in power, well, you
> > can see that it's a skill, like any other. Why resent people who
> > happen to be good at things like torture and political
> > totalitarianism just because they have the skills and you don't?
> 
> On 11 Mar 2004 at 5:46, CobbCoStudioArts wrote:
> > Marcus,
> > It is good that our presidents' tenure is shorter in length than the
> > power of the "average dictator."  I wonder, are the most skilled
> > dictators above average?i.e., more intelligent?, more ruthless?,
> > more paranoic?, etc.
> 
> Hey Bob -- you think that the way to keep down the Irish population
> would be to use Irish babies as delicacies for English tables? Do you
> think that they would be best broiled, baked, or fried? Do you think
> dark meat or white meat would be better with a garlic sauce?
> Marcus

On 11 Mar 2004 at 6:30, CobbCoStudioArts wrote:
> I have no desire "to keep down the Irish population" nor to compare
> Irish babies to potatoes, or to any other food, no matter how it
> may be prepared.  As for English cuisine, I have never acquired a
> taste for it.

Sorry, Bob -- didn't know you weren't familiar with Jonathan Swift's 
"A Modest Proposal". Here's a link to it:  http://art-
bin.com/art/omodest.html

The footnote to this URL

"Jonathan Swift (1667-1745), author and satirist, famous for 
Gulliver's Travels (1726) and A Modest Proposal (1729). This 
proposal, where he suggests that the Irish eat their own children, is 
one of his most drastic pieces. He devoted much of his writing to the 
struggle for Ireland against the English hegemony."

is wrong in one respect: Swift doesn't advocate the Irish eat their 
children, but rather that they sell their children to be eaten by 
others as a money-making, or at least a rent- or tax-paying venture.

Marcus






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 11 10:22:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:22:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
References: <4050324E.23387.7DE31F@localhost>
Message-ID: <00ea01c4077c$9cfcd150$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > > Okay, I agree that "mere technique" is in fact the difference
> > > between prose and poetry, but not that new techniques are a sure
> > > road to freshness in poetry.
>
> On 11 Mar 2004 at 9:12, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > Anything new added to a poem HAS to make it fresh.<
>
> The problem with this view is that there's really nothing "new" in
> the sense that adding it "has" to make it fresh. You could say that
> this poem must be read while flinging elephant shit at the audience --
>  but is that really "new" or "fresh"? You could say that a random
> collection of letters was "new" but would it be "fresh" in any
> significant meaning of the word? Would every random collection of
> letters be "fresh"? How long before random collections of words as a
> "technique" is no longer "new"? How long before ANY "technique" is no
> longer "new"?
>
> >  The problem is
> > that freshness is only one ingredient of an aesthetically effective
> > poem, so adding something new to a poem won't necessarily make it
> > better than other poems; it may, in fact, make it worse because the
> > incoherence its new element adds does more harm than the freshness it
> > adds does good, or simply because the poem is flawed in other ways.<
>
> But you were saying that newness and freshness were "sure roads" to
> aesthetic excellence. Now you say they're not. Which is it, Bob?

Hmm.  After one reasonable post to this thread, this person whom James
doesn't want me to succinctly describe is (1) misrepresenting what I was
saying; (2) ignoring a very pertinent question I asked him (the one about
his definition of "the technique of verse," which seems central to his
position); then (3) going on to repeat old dogma of his concerning a topic I
said I didn't want to get into. Fascinatingly predictible these types are.

--Bob G.







From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 11 10:24:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:24:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Careerism
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A237@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00f401c4077c$e7b9f740$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Three thoughts from David Budbill--
> 
> 
> In the Ancient Tradition
> 
> I live within the ancient tradition:
> the poet as mountain recluse,
> withdrawn and hidden,
> a life of genteel poverty,
> a quiet life of meditation,
> 
> which gives me lots of time
> to gnash my teeth and worry over
> how I want to be known and read
> by everyone and have admirers
> everywhere and lots of money!
> 
> --------------
> ON THE ROAD TO BUDDHAHOOD
> 
> Ever plainer.  Ever simpler.
> Ever more ordinary.
> 
> My goal is to become a simpleton.
> 
> And from what everybody tells me
> I am making real progress.
> -----------------------------------
> 
> 
> Dilemma
> 
> I want to be
> famous
> so I can be 
> humble
> about being
> famous.
> 
> What good is my
> humility
> when I am 
> stuck
> in this
> obscurity?
> 
> --David Budbill. *Moment to Moment:  Poems of a Mountain Recluse*.
> Copper Canyon, 1999.


I never seaid tenth-raters couldn't be amusing.

--Bob G.



From FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 10:24:39 2004
From: FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:24:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diggs & Conrad:  Poetry Project, 3/15
Message-ID: <77.23f03e5b.2d81deb7@aol.com>

Latasha N. Nevada Diggs & 
CAConrad

Monday, March 15
8pm

Poetry Project at
St. Mark's Church
in the Bowery
131 E. 10th St.
New York City

-------------

Writer and vocalist Latasha N. Nevada Diggs' literary and sound works have 
been featured and recorded in various publications and audio projects ranging 
from rock to house music.? She is the author of two chapbooks, Ichi-Ban: from 
the files of negr?ta mu?eca Linda and Ni-Ban: Villa Miser?a, as well as the 
writer and producer of an experimental audio essay, "Televis?on".? A fellow of the 
Cave Canem Workshop for African American Poets, she was the 2002 artist in 
residence at Harvestworks Digital Media Arts Center.? She has received 
fellowships and scholarships in the field of poetry from both the New York Foundation 
for the Arts and Naropa University's Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics.

Some of her online links:

http://www.aozoramarket.com/eng/
-------------
http://www.drunkenboat.org/
-------------
http://www.nyfa.org/nyfa_artists_detail.asp?pid=4962
-------------
http://womenarts.org/
-------------
http://cavecanempoets.org

-------------

CAConrad has three forthcoming books: DEVIANT PROPULSION (Soft Skull Press), 
advancedELVIScourse (Buck Downs Books), and FRANK (The Jargon Society). He 
co-edits FREQUENCY Audio Journal with Magdalena Zurawski, and edits BANJO: Poets 
Talking, and 9for9. Among other things, he is currently collaborating with 
poet Frank Sherlock on their project "The City Real & Imagined:  Philadelphia 
Poems," also with Frank Sherlock & Jennifer Coleman on project "7."  He is part 
of The Philly Sound: http://phillysound.blogspot.com

Some of his online links:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect/i20/t/conrad1.html
-------------
http://www.tameme.org/issue_2/excerpts/conr-ex.html
-------------
http://www.lodestarquarterly.com/work/153/
-------------
http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/aa030403n.htm
-------------
http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/winter_2003/caconrad/home.html






From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Mar 11 10:25:46 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:25:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Careerism
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A237@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <013a01c4077d$20f26740$7d0a9942@Helen>

Nice post, David.  Captures the moment perfectly.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 9:39 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Careerism


> Three thoughts from David Budbill--
> 
> 
> In the Ancient Tradition
> 
> I live within the ancient tradition:
> the poet as mountain recluse,
> withdrawn and hidden,
> a life of genteel poverty,
> a quiet life of meditation,
> 
> which gives me lots of time
> to gnash my teeth and worry over
> how I want to be known and read
> by everyone and have admirers
> everywhere and lots of money!
> 
> --------------
> ON THE ROAD TO BUDDHAHOOD
> 
> Ever plainer.  Ever simpler.
> Ever more ordinary.
> 
> My goal is to become a simpleton.
> 
> And from what everybody tells me
> I am making real progress.
> -----------------------------------
> 
> 
> Dilemma
> 
> I want to be
> famous
> so I can be 
> humble
> about being
> famous.
> 
> What good is my
> humility
> when I am 
> stuck
> in this
> obscurity?
> 
> --David Budbill. *Moment to Moment:  Poems of a Mountain Recluse*.
> Copper Canyon, 1999.
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Mar 11 10:42:41 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:42:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Careerism II
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A23C@ariel.ripon.edu>

Berryman

I will tell you what he told me
in the years just after the war
as we then called
the second world war

don't lose your arrogance yet he said
you can do that when you're older
lose it too soon and you may
merely replace it with vanity

just one time he suggested
changing the usual order
of the same words in a line of verse
why point out a thing twice

he suggested I pray to the Muse
get down on my knees and pray
right there in the corner and he
said he meant it literally

it was in the days before the beard
and the drink but he was deep
in tides of his own through which he sailed
chin sideways and head tilted like a tacking sloop

he was far older than the dates allowed for
much older than I was he was in his thirties
he snapped down his nose with an accent
I think he had affected in England

as for publishing he advised me
to paper my wall with rejection slips
his lips and the bones of his long fingers trembled
with the vehemence of his views about poetry

he said the great presence
that permitted everything and transmuted it
in poetry was passion
passion was genius and he praised movement and invention

I had hardly begun to read
I asked how can you ever be sure
that what you write is really
any good at all and he said you can't

you can't you can never be sure
you die without knowing
whether anything you wrote was any good
if you have to be sure don't write

-- W.S. Merwin.  *Flower & Hand* (Copper Canyon Press).



============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Thu Mar 11 10:43:17 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:43:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <20040311154317.4DC41396C@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Thu Mar 11 11:08:27 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:08:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Face it, Shakespeare is OVER!
In-Reply-To: <200403111520.i2BFK2XE031329@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040311075511.00b51088@incoming.verizon.net>

At 10:20 AM 3/11/2004 -0500, Bob G. wrote:
> >freshness is essential; otherwise, why not just read your
> > favorite Shakespeare sonnet over and over again for the rest of your
> > life?
-----
Nothing's worth much that's not "new,"
but fans of true newness? damn few!
Scorn dead-form and you'll gain what?  a boo.
Who's cheered? Don't be coy, you know who.

The Establishment, fearing respect
for brash media, hangs in with dreck
like old sonnets with words in them, Jack.
Sweat at making it fresh, they'll attack!

A word-poet wins some damn prize?
The cabal's in control, no surprise.
Yet there's nothing but words in there, guys!
Stuff from pre-1950s (deep sighs).

Sprightly work made of numbers and jots,
genius darings composed of grease spots
deserve rapt attention, oh, lots;
all the rest are just boiling their pots.

All the rest, they get all the attention,
the reviews and the tenure and pension,
and what's new they subdue without mention
to write drearily on, with a pen!

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 11 11:35:18 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:35:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Careerism III or IV whatever
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A23C@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEGNIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thoughts While Studying at Hanlin Academy
Sent to My Colleagues at the Chi-hsien Academy

At dawn I hasten toward the Purple Hall
At dusk I await edicts from the Golden Gate.
I read book after book, scattering rare manuscripts all around.
I study antiquity to search for the ultimate essence.
Whenever I feel I understand a word,
I close my book and suddenly smile.
Black flies too easily defile the pure,
A lofty tune like "White Snow" finds few echoes.
By nature carefree and unrestrained,
I've often been rebuked for eccentricity.
When the cloudy sky becomes clear and bright,
I long for visits to woods and hills.
Sometimes when the cool breezes rise,
I'll lean on the railings and whistle aloud.
Yen Kuang angled in his T'ung-lu Creek,
And Hsieh K'e climbed his Ling-hai Peak.
When I finish my task in this world,
I shall follow them and try my fishhook.

--Li Po

tr. Joseph J. Lee

Hal                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Mar 11 11:27:41 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:27:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Kerry Quotes Prufrock
In-Reply-To: <6861515.1078952383777.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BC75EF9D.62EA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 3/10/04 2:59 PM, Michael Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote:

> 
> On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 03:16PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>> More on Kerry and Prufrock.
>> 
>> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/goldblatt200403100918.asp
>> 
>> ---
>> 
> 
> Yeah, I could have done without the Bush-sniping, too, even though I won't
> vote for him. Nor does Kerry's quoting Eliot have anything to do with why I'll
> vote for him--and I'm damned glad we didn't get treated to the poem about the
> deer. I was just interested to see poems even mentioned at that level of
> politics, especially when it's not Maya Angelou.
> 
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
 Same here. It always surprised and delights me when a serious poem or poet
gets mentioned in the world of politics and commerce.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 11 11:41:51 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:41:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Face it, Shakespeare is OVER!
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040311075511.00b51088@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <017d01c40787$c3e6aab0$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Just thought I'd correct one of your many errors, Barry: "freshness" is not the same as "newness."  One of the advantages of not doing it the same is that it allows one to leave the old long enough for it to regain its original freshness, if--like some of Shakespeare's sonnets--it ever had any.

Making it new isn't the only way to go; but certainly making it the same is the only way to go to win the admiration of English professors.

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barry Spacks 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 11:08 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Face it, Shakespeare is OVER!


  At 10:20 AM 3/11/2004 -0500, Bob G. wrote:

    >freshness is essential; otherwise, why not just read your
    > favorite Shakespeare sonnet over and over again for the rest of your
    > life? 
  -----
  Nothing's worth much that's not "new,"
  but fans of true newness? damn few!
  Scorn dead-form and you'll gain what?  a boo. 
  Who's cheered? Don't be coy, you know who.

  The Establishment, fearing respect
  for brash media, hangs in with dreck
  like old sonnets with words in them, Jack.
  Sweat at making it fresh, they'll attack!

  A word-poet wins some damn prize?
  The cabal's in control, no surprise.
  Yet there's nothing but words in there, guys!
  Stuff from pre-1950s (deep sighs).

  Sprightly work made of numbers and jots,
  genius darings composed of grease spots
  deserve rapt attention, oh, lots;
  all the rest are just boiling their pots.

  All the rest, they get all the attention,
  the reviews and the tenure and pension,
  and what's new they subdue without mention
  to write drearily on, with a pen!

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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 12:09:38 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:09:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
Message-ID: <1ef.1b36114d.2d81f752@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/10/04 10:17:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
    Well, to me, "mere technique" is the only difference between prose and 
> poetry.  And freshness is essential; otherwise, why not just read your 
> favorite Shakespeare sonnet over and over again for the rest of your life?  
> Effective new techniques are not the only road to freshness, but they're 
the 
> only sure one.
>  
>    I'd love to think that poetry is immune from obsolescence, but I can't 
> believe, as I've argued before, that the arts are somehow miraculously 
> unimprovable, unlike technology.
>  
>    But I guarantee that those snapping up collections of poetry that win 
> prizes and snubbing collections of poetry that use new techniques will 
never 
> have to confront evidence that artistic progress may be possible, even in 
> poetry. 
>  
Bob, if we took any current handbook of literary terms, and selected from
it the entire set of recognized literary techniques, I would say that there
would be a great deal of overlap in techniques used in both poetry and
prose. 

Earlier, you indicated that 1950 is a kind of dividing line for you.
I don't see any evidence that the poet in question (Stewart) is unaware of
or eschews all techniques that have been introduced since that year. 

I would venture a guess that if we culled from a handbook, say, 200 
possible poetic techniques, that only a very few of them would have 
been 'invented', shall we say, after 1950. Further, for me, it's entirely 
possible for a contemporary poet to leave out, either by choice or 
happenstance, all of the post-1950 techniques and still write a very fine 
poem. But let's get down to brass tacks: What techniques (a short 
list will do) dating from post-1950, do you find indispensable if the 
poem/poet is to achieve what you consider to be merit? 
Finnegan


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 11 12:09:53 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:09:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Footnote du jour
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEGPIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

This, from a footnote to the title of Li Po's poem
"The Road to Shu Is Hard" in *Sunflower Splendor*
[Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1975]

"Shu, the ancient name for Szechwan, was said to be
ruled at one time by five brothers, the eldest being 
Ts'an-ts'ung and the third being Yu-fu. Having no
language, the people lived in peace and had no contact
with Ch'in until 311 B.C."

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Mar 11 12:11:42 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:11:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <63340-22004341117114297@M2W091.mail2web.com>

Careerism is an easy target -- as we see here. I don't believe this makes
it the equivalent of torturing or dictatorship.


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:32:25 -0500
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich


> > > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:
> > >     Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm
> > >     not going to start resenting some people because they have it
> > >     an I don't....<
> >
> > Yeah, and torturing people is damned hard, too -- if you're not
> > pretty good at it your subjects keep dying on you, the ungrateful
> > bastards. It's a skill, like any other. And talk about skills that
> > are difficult! What about dictator? Man, if you look at how long it
> > takes and all the stuff you have to do to get to be dictator, and
> > then reflect on how long the average dictator is in power, well, you
> > can see that it's a skill, like any other. Why resent people who
> > happen to be good at things like torture and political
> > totalitarianism just because they have the skills and you don't?
> > Marcus

On 11 Mar 2004 at 13:32, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> In Italian there is a way of defining people like you Marcus,
> "Bastian contrari". You could oppose just about anything, what an
> amazing quality you have there. And you are much better than me,
> stupefied I am, Anny

Anny, I think you have mistaken the sarcastic tone and ironic intent 
of my post. I am not in favor of torture or dictatorship -- I am 
opposing the notion of tolerating careerism on the grounds that it is 
a skill by proposing, sarcastically and ironically, that so are 
torture and dictatorship skills -- and if we're going to be admiring 
skills as skills solely, out of context, irrespective of their social 
consequences or human meaning, then we're not really using good 
judgment.

Marcus





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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://mail2web.com/ .





From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Mar 11 13:13:53 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:13:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Noble ambition
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A241@ariel.ripon.edu>

> Careerism is an easy target -- as we see here. I don't believe this makes
> it the equivalent of torturing or dictatorship.
> 
Yes, and one person's careerism is another person's noble ambition, don'tya
know.  I can think of plenty of classic authors who were notably aggressive
about pushing themselves forward, and others who went a different path.   So
what?

We're in the realm of gossip when the word "career" appears, seems to me.
On the other hand, as Donald Hall argues in *Poetry and Ambition*, ambition
may be a necessary component of greatness:  ambition not as angling for
grants or sending postcards to Stockholm (Hall's phrase), but the deep
stuff.  

Rich (for example) is so obviously infected with the deep form of ambition
that I don't really care about her literary politics.  Same with Susan
Stewart--I may like or not like her work (verdict's not in) but it seems
pretty clear she's an honest toiler in the vineyard, and I won't snipe at
her just because she won a plum.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 11 13:21:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:21:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Stewart: A Modest Proposal
References: <1ef.1b36114d.2d81f752@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01d701c40795$a19bf290$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> >    But I guarantee that those snapping up collections of poetry that win
> > prizes and snubbing collections of poetry that use new techniques will
> never
> > have to confront evidence that artistic progress may be possible, even
in
> > poetry.
> >
> Bob, if we took any current handbook of literary terms, and selected from
> it the entire set of recognized literary techniques, I would say that
there
> would be a great deal of overlap in techniques used in both poetry and
> prose.
>
> Earlier, you indicated that 1950 is a kind of dividing line for you.
> I don't see any evidence that the poet in question (Stewart) is unaware of
> or eschews all techniques that have been introduced since that year.
>
> I would venture a guess that if we culled from a handbook, say, 200
> possible poetic techniques, that only a very few of them would have
> been 'invented', shall we say, after 1950. Further, for me, it's entirely
> possible for a contemporary poet to leave out, either by choice or
> happenstance, all of the post-1950 techniques and still write a very fine
> poem. But let's get down to brass tacks: What techniques (a short
> list will do) dating from post-1950, do you find indispensable if the
> poem/poet is to achieve what you consider to be merit?
> Finnegan


(1) The same people who publish the anthologies of poetry for schools
publish the handbooks of literary terms.

(2) Some techniques are too new to be named; many more are too new to have a
name agreed on.

(3) I'm not talking about techniques dating from post-1950, but techniques
either never widely-used or not widely-used in 1950.  Some of Cummings's
techniques date to the twenties but are still not widely-used.

(4) I don't believe any technique dating from post-1950 is indispensable for
poetic merit.  I merely--too frequently, I admit--pop off at the
near-monopoly poets who eschew all techniques not in wide use by 1950 have
on recognition.  (I choose 1950 only because it's a round number, and right
in the middle of the last century; I doubt that there is a particular year
when 90% of the serious poets stopped trying out new techniques and got
nearly full control of the media and schools; my vague impression is that it
happened gradually in the fifties when Williams's school of raw free verse
ran out of techiques not to use.)

(5) Among the techniques not being widely used but being effectively used by
a few are: the visiophor (or visual element in a poem that acts as a
metaphor for a significant verbal element of the poem); various other
combinations of text and graphic elements to make a poem; various
infraverbal manipulations (fusion of words, break-up of words, omission of
letters in words, use of punctuation marks in words, addition of letters to
words, reversal of spelling, cryptographic manipulation, anagramming for
serious lyrical purposes), my own various mathematical manipulations of
words (e.g., dividing one word into another, raising words to the power of
other words, finding the derivative of a verbal image); mixing visual and
mathematical techniques in the same poem; various misuses of grammar;
various book-making techniques, the use of various objects as holder
essential expressive parts of poems (e.g., pebbles, leaves, bark); mixing
languages; various kinds of chance procedures; found art techniques . . .

That's all I can think of right now.

--Bob G.





From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 13:33:52 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:33:52 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Careerism II
Message-ID: <6a.3ca4aab2.2d820b10@aol.com>

    Going Wrong

    The fish are dreadful. They are brought up
    the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful
    and alien and cold from night under the sea,
    the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes.
    Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks,
    washing them. "What can you know of my machinery!"
    demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly
    and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts,
    getting to the muck of something terrible.
    The Lord insists: "You are the one who chooses
    to live this way. I build cities where things
    are human. I make Tuscany and you go live
    with rock and silence." The man washes away
    the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate.
    Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts
    in peppers. "You have lived all year without women."
    He takes out everything and puts in the fish.
    "No one knows where you are. People forget you.
    You are vain and stubborn." The man slices
    tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish
    and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks,
    laying all of it on the table in the courtyard
    full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying
    on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy.


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Thu Mar 11 13:39:10 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:39:10 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] what's wanted
In-Reply-To: <200403111701.i2BH13XE032329@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040311102543.00b93008@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:01 PM 3/11/2004 -0500, Bob wrote:
>Making it new isn't the only way to go; but certainly making it the same
>is the only way to go to win the admiration of English professors.

Oh ho, Bob! (gad, am I taking over for Marcus?!) playing the
"English Professor" card right after the number-ranking ploy
  -- could it be our Bob bears an 80-pound grievance-monkey
on his back? How about we settle for keeping art at least
minimally INTERESTING, Bob. Eh? Eh? (he twirls his English Professor
mustaches, desperate to arouse demanding-Bob).


>--Bob G.
>   ----- Original Message -----=20
>   From: Barry Spacks=20
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
>   Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 11:08 AM
>   Subject: [New-Poetry] Face it, Shakespeare is OVER!
>
>
>   At 10:20 AM 3/11/2004 -0500, Bob G. wrote:
>
>     >freshness is essential; otherwise, why not just read your
>     > favorite Shakespeare sonnet over and over again for the rest of =
>your
>     > life?=20
>   -----
>   Nothing's worth much that's not "new,"
>   but fans of true newness? damn few!
>   Scorn dead-form and you'll gain what?  a boo.=20
>   Who's cheered? Don't be coy, you know who.
>
>   The Establishment, fearing respect
>   for brash media, hangs in with dreck
>   like old sonnets with words in them, Jack.
>   Sweat at making it fresh, they'll attack!
>
>   A word-poet wins some damn prize?
>   The cabal's in control, no surprise.
>   Yet there's nothing but words in there, guys!
>   Stuff from pre-1950s (deep sighs).
>
>   Sprightly work made of numbers and jots,
>   genius darings composed of grease spots
>   deserve rapt attention, oh, lots;
>   all the rest are just boiling their pots.
>
>   All the rest, they get all the attention,
>   the reviews and the tenure and pension,
>   and what's new they subdue without mention
>   to write drearily on, with a pen!
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_017A_01C4075D.D879CB30
>Content-Type: text/html;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>Just thought I'd correct one of your = many errors,=20 Barry: "freshness" 
>is not the same as "newness."  One of the = advantages of=20 not doing it 
>the same is that it allows one to leave the old long enough = for it=20 to 
>regain its original freshness, if--like some of Shakespeare's = 
>sonnets--it=20 ever had any.
>
>Making it new isn't the only way to go; = but=20 certainly making it the 
>same is the only way to go to win the admiration = of=20 English professors.
>
>--Bob G.
>----- Original Message -----
>Barry=20 Spacks
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=
>Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 = 11:08=20 AM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Face it,=20 Shakespeare is OVER!
>
>At 10:20 AM 3/11/2004 -0500, = Bob G.=20 wrote:
> >freshness is = essential;=20 otherwise, why not just read your
> > favorite Shakespeare = sonnet over=20 and over again for the rest of your
> > life? =
>
>-----
>Nothing's worth = much that's not=20 "new,"
>but fans of true newness? damn few!
>Scorn dead-form and = you'll=20 gain what?  a boo.
>Who's cheered? Don't be coy, you know=20 who.
>
>The Establishment, fearing respect
>for brash media, = hangs in=20 with dreck
>like old sonnets with words in them, = Jack.
>Sweat at=20 making it fresh, they'll attack!
>
>A word-poet wins some damn=20 prize?
>The cabal's in control, no surprise.
>Yet there's nothing = but=20 words in there, guys!
>Stuff from pre-1950s (deep=20 sighs).
>
>Sprightly work made of numbers and jots,
>genius = darings=20 composed of grease spots
>deserve rapt attention, oh, lots;
>all = the rest=20 are just boiling their pots.
>
>All the rest, they get all the=20 attention,
>the reviews and the tenure and pension,
>and what's = new they=20 subdue without mention
>to write drearily on, with a=20 pen!
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_017A_01C4075D.D879CB30--
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Mar 11 15:53:07 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 15:53:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <63340-22004341117114297@M2W091.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <40508B63.2.21F728@localhost>

> > > > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:
> > > >     Careerism is so damn hard. It's a skill like any other. I'm
> > > >     not going to start resenting some people because they have
> > > >     it an I don't....<
> > >
> > > Yeah, and torturing people is damned hard, too -- if you're not
> > > pretty good at it your subjects keep dying on you, the ungrateful
> > > bastards. It's a skill, like any other. And talk about skills that
> > > are difficult! What about dictator? Man, if you look at how long
> > > it takes and all the stuff you have to do to get to be dictator,
> > > and then reflect on how long the average dictator is in power,
> > > well, you can see that it's a skill, like any other. Why resent
> > > people who happen to be good at things like torture and political
> > > totalitarianism just because they have the skills and you don't?
> > > Marcus
> 
> On 11 Mar 2004 at 13:32, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> > In Italian there is a way of defining people like you Marcus,
> > "Bastian contrari". You could oppose just about anything, what an
> > amazing quality you have there. And you are much better than me,
> > stupefied I am, Anny
> 
> Anny, I think you have mistaken the sarcastic tone and ironic intent
> of my post. I am not in favor of torture or dictatorship -- I am
> opposing the notion of tolerating careerism on the grounds that it is
> a skill by proposing, sarcastically and ironically, that so are
> torture and dictatorship skills -- and if we're going to be admiring
> skills as skills solely, out of context, irrespective of their social
> consequences or human meaning, then we're not really using good
> judgment.
> Marcus

On 11 Mar 2004 at 12:11, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:
> Careerism is an easy target -- as we see here. I don't believe this
> makes it the equivalent of torturing or dictatorship.

Once again, I'm not equating careerism with torturers or dictators. 
Is this really something that has to be explained to this group of 
people? So far the only replies have been from people who have 
clearly misunderstood the entire purpose of sarcasm and irony in the 
passage I wrote, though each misunderstood it differently and, I 
think, for different reasons. 

If we are going to admire skills as skills alone, out of context and 
irrespective of the circumstances in which we find them, as an 
admiration for the skills required to advance careerism suggests we 
should, then where do you stop in admiring such skills, and why stop 
there instead of somewhere further along toward torture and 
dictatorship, or why not go all the way to torture, rape, murder, and 
dictatorship as admirable in that they require a certain skill set to 
accomplish?

Marcus






From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 11 16:29:29 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:29:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RS on Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <40508B63.2.21F728@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEHGIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

To be filed under the heading What Goes Around Comes Around--

{    Is this really something that has to be explained to this group of 
{    people? So far the only replies have been from people who have 
{    clearly misunderstood the entire purpose of sarcasm and irony in the 
{    passage I wrote, though each misunderstood it differently and, I 
{    think, for different reasons. 

Hal         Not responsible for typografical errors.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Thu Mar 11 17:19:44 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:19:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Internet Heaven" Poetry Award
Message-ID: <20040311221945.128807263@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Mar 11 19:53:01 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:53:01 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sarabande turns 10
Message-ID: <1eb.1b236e7e.2d8263ed@aol.com>

Hello, all.? I just wanted to send out an early e-mail to let you know that 
Sarabande Books is having its tenth anniversary in 2004, and we'd like to 
invite you to our celebration in New York on Friday, May 7.?? 

There will be appearances by some the nation's finest and best-known writers, 
live music, and a performance of "Sarabande Allemande"? by the Squallis 
Puppeteers.? 

The party will take place from 6:00 to 9:00 p.m. at the Dactyl Foundation on 
64 Grand Street (located above Canal and below Broome, between West Broadway 
and Wooster in Soho).?? 

We'll be sending out invitations later this month, but I just thought I would 
send out this little note in advance so that you could save the date. . . . I 
hope to see you there!

Nickole

__________________________________
Nickole Brown
Director of Marketing and Development
Sarabande Books, Inc.
2234 Dundee Road, Suite 200
Louisville, KY? 40205

(502) 458-4028
FAX (502) 458-4065

Please feel free to visit our Sarabande Website or our new Sarabande in 
Education Website!
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 11 21:21:18 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:21:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Latest Blog Entry
References: <b4.29143abf.2d7df64f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02d501c407d8$b6305e10$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Daily Notes on Poetry

11 March 2004. While at school the other day, subbing, I scribbled a few
(not particularly original) notes toward another of my classifications of
poetry. What follows is a somewhat wobbly attempt to make a brief essay of
those notes. In it, I divide poems into three primary kinds, based on what
area of their infocipients' psychologies they are chiefly aimed at.


The first, and always the most popular, is Soulfare, or what the philistine
reacts to by exclaiming, "Gee whiz, how eloquently he expresses just what I
feel! I could never do that!"


The second is Craftfare, or what the philistine reacts to by exclaiming,
"Gee whiz, how skillfully he carries out the difficult steps required to
make this work! I could never do that!"


The third is Aesventurefare (or "aesthetic-adventure fare"), or what the
philistine reacts to by exclaiming, "Aaarrrgh, how vilely he wrenches me
away from what I know! I'd never do that to anyone, though I easily could if
I wanted to."


Note: I'm not saying that because philistines admire something, it is
necessarily bad, or that because they are repelled by something, it is
necessarily good. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of
soulfare for depths and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable of
perceiving. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of craftfare
for intricacies and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable of
appreciating. A non- philistine will look down on an inferior specimen of
aesventurefare for much better reasons than the philistine's belief that
anything having characteristics not staples of mainstream art for at least
twenty years is abhorrent.


Needless to say, all three kinds of poetry have their virtue. The appeal of
soulcraft lies in its ability, when effective, to reassure its infocipients
that they are not alone in their outlook on life. The appeal of craftfare
lies in its ability, when effective, to cause its infocipients vicariously
to experience Grand Dexterity, as with watching the performance of a
superior juggler, or a world-class athlete. The appeal of aesventurefare
lies in its ability, when effective, to allow its (most perceptive and
knowledgeable) infocipients to perceive existence in a significantly new
way.


Now, then, just as saying there are just three primary colors is not the
same as saying there are only three colors, my saying there are three
primary kinds of poetry does not mean I think there are only three kinds of
poetry. Obviously, I think the three primary kinds mix together with one
another the same way, and as much, as the three primary colors. I haven't
made a careful survey of the field, but it seems to me that both what I call
Iowa Workshop Poetry, or sensitive contemporary free verse, and what I call
Contragenteel Poetry, or coarsely direct contemporary free verse, are more
soulfare than anything else; neoformalist poetry is more craftfare than
anything else; and the rising contender for acadominance, language poetry,
is more aesventurefare than anything else. Pluraesthetic Poetry, or poetry
that makes significant aesthetic use of two or more expressive modalities,
is also a form of aesventurefare although it has been with us for close to a
century now.


Iowa Workshop Poetry, Contragenteel Poetry, Neoformalist Poetry and one
strand of Language Poetry, which I call sprungrammar poetry, are the four
main visible kinds of poetry being composed today. Those making the first
still get most of the prizes and fill the most pages of commercial
anthologies, but Neoformalists seem to be making a minor comeback, and
certain language poets seem to be getting the most respect as poets from the
intellectuals. The contragenteel poets are probably the most numerous but
get no respeck. The pluraesthetic poets are invisible to both the literary
establishment and the "people."


While a fair number of skilled knownstream poets write both Iowa Workshop
and neoformalist poetry, and perhaps even contragenteel poetry, most
language poets and contragenteel poets stick to their fortes only. The
pluraesthetic poets seem to have the greatest range, many of them writing
various kinds of free verse and language poetry as well as composing their
more marginal works. It seems to me obvious that the best poetry combines
all three of the kinds of poetry I've been discussing. I tend to think its
aesventurefare portion should be higher than most other lovers of poetry,
and don't feel its craftfare portion should be very high, but in my own
poetry I certainly go for the same kinds of epiphanies that
soulcraft-specialists go for, so would never call for the abolition of
soulcraft, as my less attentive critics often suggest I would like to.







From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 12 07:48:34 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:48:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
Message-ID: <00b801c40830$5668aed0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

(Preliminary note: yesterday I was about as obnoxious as I ever am at
New-Poetry.  I don't apologize for that, but do vow not to be obnoxious
today . . . okay, except to those who take anything I say as obnoxious.)

Right after posting my blog entry for yesterday, I made small changes to it
at my blog.  This morning, I woke up into thoughts about the more
substantial repairs it needed.

Here's one: probably the most important way craftfare appeals to us is by
giving order and coherence to the complexities and difficulties of
existence.

Also, I now feel I need more explicitly to define my three kinds of poetry.
So, take soulfare to be any lineated literary text (actually, any text with
a significant number of flow-breaks, but I won't get into flow-breaks here)
whose explicit focus is human experience.

Take craftfare to be formal verse.  That is something I, in turn, take to be
any lineated literary text whose lines are (mostly) one or more of the
following (to a reasonably great degree):

parallellic (or significantly locutionally similar to other lines as with
the Biblical psalms and much of Whitman), length-defined (or a certain
amount of syllables or beats in length), metrical (or metrically regular),
repenemical (or containing inter-acting repenemes at their terminals,
"repeneme" being my coinage for a syllable that repeats some part of another
syllable such as a rhyme or alliterant).  Can anyone tell me what else
formal verse might have?

Take aesventurefare to be any lineated literary text that contains something
new: new subject matter, new technique, new tone (auditory, conceptual,
emotional--any kind of tone or combination of tones) .  This brings up
another question: is there anything else than the three I mentioned that can
be new in a poem?

--Bob G.

> Daily Notes on Poetry
>
> 11 March 2004. While at school the other day, subbing, I scribbled a few
> (not particularly original) notes toward another of my classifications of
> poetry. What follows is a somewhat wobbly attempt to make a brief essay of
> those notes. In it, I divide poems into three primary kinds, based on what
> area of their infocipients' psychologies they are chiefly aimed at.
>
>
> The first, and always the most popular, is Soulfare, or what the
philistine
> reacts to by exclaiming, "Gee whiz, how eloquently he expresses just what
I
> feel! I could never do that!"
>
>
> The second is Craftfare, or what the philistine reacts to by exclaiming,
> "Gee whiz, how skillfully he carries out the difficult steps required to
> make this work! I could never do that!"
>
>
> The third is Aesventurefare (or "aesthetic-adventure fare"), or what the
> philistine reacts to by exclaiming, "Aaarrrgh, how vilely he wrenches me
> away from what I know! I'd never do that to anyone, though I easily could
if
> I wanted to."
>
>
> Note: I'm not saying that because philistines admire something, it is
> necessarily bad, or that because they are repelled by something, it is
> necessarily good. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of
> soulfare for depths and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable
of
> perceiving. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of craftfare
> for intricacies and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable of
> appreciating. A non- philistine will look down on an inferior specimen of
> aesventurefare for much better reasons than the philistine's belief that
> anything having characteristics not staples of mainstream art for at least
> twenty years is abhorrent.
>
>
> Needless to say, all three kinds of poetry have their virtue. The appeal
of
> soulcraft lies in its ability, when effective, to reassure its
infocipients
> that they are not alone in their outlook on life. The appeal of craftfare
> lies in its ability, when effective, to cause its infocipients vicariously
> to experience Grand Dexterity, as with watching the performance of a
> superior juggler, or a world-class athlete. The appeal of aesventurefare
> lies in its ability, when effective, to allow its (most perceptive and
> knowledgeable) infocipients to perceive existence in a significantly new
> way.
>
>
> Now, then, just as saying there are just three primary colors is not the
> same as saying there are only three colors, my saying there are three
> primary kinds of poetry does not mean I think there are only three kinds
of
> poetry. Obviously, I think the three primary kinds mix together with one
> another the same way, and as much, as the three primary colors. I haven't
> made a careful survey of the field, but it seems to me that both what I
call
> Iowa Workshop Poetry, or sensitive contemporary free verse, and what I
call
> Contragenteel Poetry, or coarsely direct contemporary free verse, are more
> soulfare than anything else; neoformalist poetry is more craftfare than
> anything else; and the rising contender for acadominance, language poetry,
> is more aesventurefare than anything else. Pluraesthetic Poetry, or poetry
> that makes significant aesthetic use of two or more expressive modalities,
> is also a form of aesventurefare although it has been with us for close to
a
> century now.
>
>
> Iowa Workshop Poetry, Contragenteel Poetry, Neoformalist Poetry and one
> strand of Language Poetry, which I call sprungrammar poetry, are the four
> main visible kinds of poetry being composed today. Those making the first
> still get most of the prizes and fill the most pages of commercial
> anthologies, but Neoformalists seem to be making a minor comeback, and
> certain language poets seem to be getting the most respect as poets from
the
> intellectuals. The contragenteel poets are probably the most numerous but
> get no respeck. The pluraesthetic poets are invisible to both the literary
> establishment and the "people."
>
>
> While a fair number of skilled knownstream poets write both Iowa Workshop
> and neoformalist poetry, and perhaps even contragenteel poetry, most
> language poets and contragenteel poets stick to their fortes only. The
> pluraesthetic poets seem to have the greatest range, many of them writing
> various kinds of free verse and language poetry as well as composing their
> more marginal works. It seems to me obvious that the best poetry combines
> all three of the kinds of poetry I've been discussing. I tend to think its
> aesventurefare portion should be higher than most other lovers of poetry,
> and don't feel its craftfare portion should be very high, but in my own
> poetry I certainly go for the same kinds of epiphanies that
> soulcraft-specialists go for, so would never call for the abolition of
> soulcraft, as my less attentive critics often suggest I would like to.
>
>
>
>




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Mar 12 09:45:24 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:45:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
Message-ID: <57050-220043512144524373@M2W085.mail2web.com>

I'd question whether subject matter can be new in a poem.



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:48:34 -0500
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry


(Preliminary note: yesterday I was about as obnoxious as I ever am at
New-Poetry.  I don't apologize for that, but do vow not to be obnoxious
today . . . okay, except to those who take anything I say as obnoxious.)

Right after posting my blog entry for yesterday, I made small changes to it
at my blog.  This morning, I woke up into thoughts about the more
substantial repairs it needed.

Here's one: probably the most important way craftfare appeals to us is by
giving order and coherence to the complexities and difficulties of
existence.

Also, I now feel I need more explicitly to define my three kinds of poetry.
So, take soulfare to be any lineated literary text (actually, any text with
a significant number of flow-breaks, but I won't get into flow-breaks here)
whose explicit focus is human experience.

Take craftfare to be formal verse.  That is something I, in turn, take to be
any lineated literary text whose lines are (mostly) one or more of the
following (to a reasonably great degree):

parallellic (or significantly locutionally similar to other lines as with
the Biblical psalms and much of Whitman), length-defined (or a certain
amount of syllables or beats in length), metrical (or metrically regular),
repenemical (or containing inter-acting repenemes at their terminals,
"repeneme" being my coinage for a syllable that repeats some part of another
syllable such as a rhyme or alliterant).  Can anyone tell me what else
formal verse might have?

Take aesventurefare to be any lineated literary text that contains something
new: new subject matter, new technique, new tone (auditory, conceptual,
emotional--any kind of tone or combination of tones) .  This brings up
another question: is there anything else than the three I mentioned that can
be new in a poem?

--Bob G.

> Daily Notes on Poetry
>
> 11 March 2004. While at school the other day, subbing, I scribbled a few
> (not particularly original) notes toward another of my classifications of
> poetry. What follows is a somewhat wobbly attempt to make a brief essay of
> those notes. In it, I divide poems into three primary kinds, based on what
> area of their infocipients' psychologies they are chiefly aimed at.
>
>
> The first, and always the most popular, is Soulfare, or what the
philistine
> reacts to by exclaiming, "Gee whiz, how eloquently he expresses just what
I
> feel! I could never do that!"
>
>
> The second is Craftfare, or what the philistine reacts to by exclaiming,
> "Gee whiz, how skillfully he carries out the difficult steps required to
> make this work! I could never do that!"
>
>
> The third is Aesventurefare (or "aesthetic-adventure fare"), or what the
> philistine reacts to by exclaiming, "Aaarrrgh, how vilely he wrenches me
> away from what I know! I'd never do that to anyone, though I easily could
if
> I wanted to."
>
>
> Note: I'm not saying that because philistines admire something, it is
> necessarily bad, or that because they are repelled by something, it is
> necessarily good. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of
> soulfare for depths and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable
of
> perceiving. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of craftfare
> for intricacies and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable of
> appreciating. A non- philistine will look down on an inferior specimen of
> aesventurefare for much better reasons than the philistine's belief that
> anything having characteristics not staples of mainstream art for at least
> twenty years is abhorrent.
>
>
> Needless to say, all three kinds of poetry have their virtue. The appeal
of
> soulcraft lies in its ability, when effective, to reassure its
infocipients
> that they are not alone in their outlook on life. The appeal of craftfare
> lies in its ability, when effective, to cause its infocipients vicariously
> to experience Grand Dexterity, as with watching the performance of a
> superior juggler, or a world-class athlete. The appeal of aesventurefare
> lies in its ability, when effective, to allow its (most perceptive and
> knowledgeable) infocipients to perceive existence in a significantly new
> way.
>
>
> Now, then, just as saying there are just three primary colors is not the
> same as saying there are only three colors, my saying there are three
> primary kinds of poetry does not mean I think there are only three kinds
of
> poetry. Obviously, I think the three primary kinds mix together with one
> another the same way, and as much, as the three primary colors. I haven't
> made a careful survey of the field, but it seems to me that both what I
call
> Iowa Workshop Poetry, or sensitive contemporary free verse, and what I
call
> Contragenteel Poetry, or coarsely direct contemporary free verse, are more
> soulfare than anything else; neoformalist poetry is more craftfare than
> anything else; and the rising contender for acadominance, language poetry,
> is more aesventurefare than anything else. Pluraesthetic Poetry, or poetry
> that makes significant aesthetic use of two or more expressive modalities,
> is also a form of aesventurefare although it has been with us for close to
a
> century now.
>
>
> Iowa Workshop Poetry, Contragenteel Poetry, Neoformalist Poetry and one
> strand of Language Poetry, which I call sprungrammar poetry, are the four
> main visible kinds of poetry being composed today. Those making the first
> still get most of the prizes and fill the most pages of commercial
> anthologies, but Neoformalists seem to be making a minor comeback, and
> certain language poets seem to be getting the most respect as poets from
the
> intellectuals. The contragenteel poets are probably the most numerous but
> get no respeck. The pluraesthetic poets are invisible to both the literary
> establishment and the "people."
>
>
> While a fair number of skilled knownstream poets write both Iowa Workshop
> and neoformalist poetry, and perhaps even contragenteel poetry, most
> language poets and contragenteel poets stick to their fortes only. The
> pluraesthetic poets seem to have the greatest range, many of them writing
> various kinds of free verse and language poetry as well as composing their
> more marginal works. It seems to me obvious that the best poetry combines
> all three of the kinds of poetry I've been discussing. I tend to think its
> aesventurefare portion should be higher than most other lovers of poetry,
> and don't feel its craftfare portion should be very high, but in my own
> poetry I certainly go for the same kinds of epiphanies that
> soulcraft-specialists go for, so would never call for the abolition of
> soulcraft, as my less attentive critics often suggest I would like to.
>
>
>
>


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Mar 12 09:56:32 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:56:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
In-Reply-To: <57050-220043512144524373@M2W085.mail2web.com>
References: <57050-220043512144524373@M2W085.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040312095529.P56772@kpaul.spinweb.net>

To rudely wander into this cyber conversation:

Did Shakespeare write about the Internet?

-kpaul

p.s. I haven't read all the other posts in this thread, but I wonder
how/why you question new subject matter in poetry...


On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

>
> I'd question whether subject matter can be new in a poem.
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:48:34 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
>
>
> (Preliminary note: yesterday I was about as obnoxious as I ever am at
> New-Poetry.  I don't apologize for that, but do vow not to be obnoxious
> today . . . okay, except to those who take anything I say as obnoxious.)
>
> Right after posting my blog entry for yesterday, I made small changes to it
> at my blog.  This morning, I woke up into thoughts about the more
> substantial repairs it needed.
>
> Here's one: probably the most important way craftfare appeals to us is by
> giving order and coherence to the complexities and difficulties of
> existence.
>
> Also, I now feel I need more explicitly to define my three kinds of poetry.
> So, take soulfare to be any lineated literary text (actually, any text with
> a significant number of flow-breaks, but I won't get into flow-breaks here)
> whose explicit focus is human experience.
>
> Take craftfare to be formal verse.  That is something I, in turn, take to be
> any lineated literary text whose lines are (mostly) one or more of the
> following (to a reasonably great degree):
>
> parallellic (or significantly locutionally similar to other lines as with
> the Biblical psalms and much of Whitman), length-defined (or a certain
> amount of syllables or beats in length), metrical (or metrically regular),
> repenemical (or containing inter-acting repenemes at their terminals,
> "repeneme" being my coinage for a syllable that repeats some part of another
> syllable such as a rhyme or alliterant).  Can anyone tell me what else
> formal verse might have?
>
> Take aesventurefare to be any lineated literary text that contains something
> new: new subject matter, new technique, new tone (auditory, conceptual,
> emotional--any kind of tone or combination of tones) .  This brings up
> another question: is there anything else than the three I mentioned that can
> be new in a poem?
>
> --Bob G.
>
> > Daily Notes on Poetry
> >
> > 11 March 2004. While at school the other day, subbing, I scribbled a few
> > (not particularly original) notes toward another of my classifications of
> > poetry. What follows is a somewhat wobbly attempt to make a brief essay of
> > those notes. In it, I divide poems into three primary kinds, based on what
> > area of their infocipients' psychologies they are chiefly aimed at.
> >
> >
> > The first, and always the most popular, is Soulfare, or what the
> philistine
> > reacts to by exclaiming, "Gee whiz, how eloquently he expresses just what
> I
> > feel! I could never do that!"
> >
> >
> > The second is Craftfare, or what the philistine reacts to by exclaiming,
> > "Gee whiz, how skillfully he carries out the difficult steps required to
> > make this work! I could never do that!"
> >
> >
> > The third is Aesventurefare (or "aesthetic-adventure fare"), or what the
> > philistine reacts to by exclaiming, "Aaarrrgh, how vilely he wrenches me
> > away from what I know! I'd never do that to anyone, though I easily could
> if
> > I wanted to."
> >
> >
> > Note: I'm not saying that because philistines admire something, it is
> > necessarily bad, or that because they are repelled by something, it is
> > necessarily good. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of
> > soulfare for depths and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable
> of
> > perceiving. A non-philistine will admire a superior specimen of craftfare
> > for intricacies and subtleties its philistine admirers are incapable of
> > appreciating. A non- philistine will look down on an inferior specimen of
> > aesventurefare for much better reasons than the philistine's belief that
> > anything having characteristics not staples of mainstream art for at least
> > twenty years is abhorrent.
> >
> >
> > Needless to say, all three kinds of poetry have their virtue. The appeal
> of
> > soulcraft lies in its ability, when effective, to reassure its
> infocipients
> > that they are not alone in their outlook on life. The appeal of craftfare
> > lies in its ability, when effective, to cause its infocipients vicariously
> > to experience Grand Dexterity, as with watching the performance of a
> > superior juggler, or a world-class athlete. The appeal of aesventurefare
> > lies in its ability, when effective, to allow its (most perceptive and
> > knowledgeable) infocipients to perceive existence in a significantly new
> > way.
> >
> >
> > Now, then, just as saying there are just three primary colors is not the
> > same as saying there are only three colors, my saying there are three
> > primary kinds of poetry does not mean I think there are only three kinds
> of
> > poetry. Obviously, I think the three primary kinds mix together with one
> > another the same way, and as much, as the three primary colors. I haven't
> > made a careful survey of the field, but it seems to me that both what I
> call
> > Iowa Workshop Poetry, or sensitive contemporary free verse, and what I
> call
> > Contragenteel Poetry, or coarsely direct contemporary free verse, are more
> > soulfare than anything else; neoformalist poetry is more craftfare than
> > anything else; and the rising contender for acadominance, language poetry,
> > is more aesventurefare than anything else. Pluraesthetic Poetry, or poetry
> > that makes significant aesthetic use of two or more expressive modalities,
> > is also a form of aesventurefare although it has been with us for close to
> a
> > century now.
> >
> >
> > Iowa Workshop Poetry, Contragenteel Poetry, Neoformalist Poetry and one
> > strand of Language Poetry, which I call sprungrammar poetry, are the four
> > main visible kinds of poetry being composed today. Those making the first
> > still get most of the prizes and fill the most pages of commercial
> > anthologies, but Neoformalists seem to be making a minor comeback, and
> > certain language poets seem to be getting the most respect as poets from
> the
> > intellectuals. The contragenteel poets are probably the most numerous but
> > get no respeck. The pluraesthetic poets are invisible to both the literary
> > establishment and the "people."
> >
> >
> > While a fair number of skilled knownstream poets write both Iowa Workshop
> > and neoformalist poetry, and perhaps even contragenteel poetry, most
> > language poets and contragenteel poets stick to their fortes only. The
> > pluraesthetic poets seem to have the greatest range, many of them writing
> > various kinds of free verse and language poetry as well as composing their
> > more marginal works. It seems to me obvious that the best poetry combines
> > all three of the kinds of poetry I've been discussing. I tend to think its
> > aesventurefare portion should be higher than most other lovers of poetry,
> > and don't feel its craftfare portion should be very high, but in my own
> > poetry I certainly go for the same kinds of epiphanies that
> > soulcraft-specialists go for, so would never call for the abolition of
> > soulcraft, as my less attentive critics often suggest I would like to.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 12 10:29:10 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:29:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
References: <57050-220043512144524373@M2W085.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <010a01c40846$c6908730$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I'd question whether subject matter can be new in a poem.

I think the whole question of what, exactly, can be meant by "new in poetry"
fascinating.  One thing it means for me, I think, is new to poetry at the
time.  For instance, while writing about quotidian, even vulgar" subject
matter goes back thousands of years, I consider doing it in English poetry
when the Georgians were ascendent was new.

In any case, surely at a shallow level, subject matter can be new in a poem:
the latest scientific developments, for instance.  Or the latest science.

--Bob G.






From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 12 13:11:32 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:11:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEJDIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The Offerings

Too many things on the altar.

A petal would do.

Or the ant that stops for a moment
at it.

--Cid Corman

in *Origin* VIII / January 1963
and *The Gist of Origin*
[New York: Grossman Publishers, 1975]



Hal         

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Mar 12 15:33:54 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:33:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEJDIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008601c40871$56c711f0$5f099942@Helen>

I had heard that Cid Corman was recovering from Open 
heart surgery - has anybody heard how he is doing these
days?  He's one of my favorite poets. 

h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:11 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"


> 
> The Offerings
> 
> Too many things on the altar.
> 
> A petal would do.
> 
> Or the ant that stops for a moment
> at it.
> 
> --Cid Corman
> 
> in *Origin* VIII / January 1963
> and *The Gist of Origin*
> [New York: Grossman Publishers, 1975]
> 
> 
> 
> Hal         
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Mar 12 15:52:28 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:52:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Cid Corman
Message-ID: <017101c40873$ee61e1f0$75607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I am sorry Helen, we received this mail on the British List some hours ago,
take care, Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Frazer" <editor at SHEARSMAN.COM>
To: <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Cid Corman


> I've just been informed that Cid Corman passed away yesterday evening
> in Japan.
>
> Tony
>




From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 15:53:50 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:53:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BigSmallPressMall/Drag City Party in Chicago
Message-ID: <8.47fdc3b6.2d837d5e@aol.com>

Subj:    BigSmallPressMall/Drag City Party in Chicago
Date:   3/12/04 10:20:50 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   editors at opencity.org (BigSmallPressMall)
Reply-to:   editors at opencity.org (BigSmallPressMall)
To: jforjames at aol.com

BigSmallPressMall and Drag City Records present a night of readings and bands 
in Chicago (to coincide with the 2004 Associated Writing Programs conference)

Aquacade I

Readings by:
DAVID BERMAN (Drag City/Open City)
HARMONY KORINE 
BILL CALLAHAN (of the band Smog)
PRAGEETA SHARMA (Fence Books)
JOE WENDEROTH (Verse Press)
STEPHEN ELLIOTT (McSweeney's)

Bands: CHESNUT STATION and WHITE MAGIC

Thursday, March 25, 9pm
The Empty Bottle, Chicago, IL 1035 N. Western Ave. (corner of Western & 
Cortez, 3 blocks south of Division, just north of Augusta)

Tickets: $15 (buy tickets and get more specific directions here: 
http://www.emptybottle.com/home.php) It may sell out, so get your tickets ahead of time... 
And keep in mind that you must be at least 21 years old.

The BigSmallPressMall (http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com) is an online 
collective of four independent journal/book publishers: Fence, McSweeney's, Verse, 
and Open City.

Drag City is an independent record label based in Chicago 
(http://www.dragcity.com)



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Mar 12 16:24:21 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:24:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently in the Onion
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A243@ariel.ripon.edu>

Masters In Writing Fails To Create Master Of Writing

PALO ALTO, CA-Despite completing all the requirements for a Masters of Fine
Arts in creative writing from Stanford University in January, Jeremy Craig
Kessler somehow failed to become a master of creative writing, sources
reported Monday. "Mr. Kessler's short stories, all written in the style of
T.C. Boyle, show little more than excellence in spelling and grammar," said
literary agent David Conrad. "Somehow, Kessler advanced to the very highest
level of the academic program and has only an average body of work to show
for it." Photocopies of Kessler's short-story collection can be purchased at
jckessler.com.


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 17:05:34 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:05:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
Message-ID: <8c.59ad434.2d838e2e@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/11/04 1:23:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Among the techniques not being widely used but being effectively used by
>  a few are: the visiophor (or visual element in a poem that acts as a
>  metaphor for a significant verbal element of the poem); various other
>  combinations of text and graphic elements to make a poem; various
>  infraverbal manipulations (fusion of words, break-up of words, omission of
>  letters in words, use of punctuation marks in words, addition of letters to
>  words, reversal of spelling, cryptographic manipulation, anagramming for
>  serious lyrical purposes), my own various mathematical manipulations of
>  words (e.g., dividing one word into another, raising words to the power of
>  other words, finding the derivative of a verbal image); mixing visual and
>  mathematical techniques in the same poem; various misuses of grammar;
>  various book-making techniques, the use of various objects as holder
>  essential expressive parts of poems (e.g., pebbles, leaves, bark); mixing
>  languages; various kinds of chance procedures; found art techniques . .

Bob, some of these techniques were used by Dadaists and Oulipo-ets 
weren't they? Also, some of these are attempts to break from the fetters
of 'speech/text=language' as we know it. Though that may be what drives the 
art of certain 'writers' (that term starts to slip when the graphical begins 
to 
outstrip the literary), I think that poets, even many experimental ones, are 
captivated by what can be done within the bounds of language as language. 
A great part of the appeal of the art of poetry will always be the simplicity 
of the material from which its made: words as they are commonly understood
to mean and commonly applied and manipulated in order to communicate.
When the art of poetry begins to go too far afield from the purposes 
and uses of language as a vehicle of evocation and/or narrative often
accompanied by an experience of sounds and rhythms, when it becomes
infraverbal, concrete and graphical, it may still be making art, but it is 
likely 
to begin to lose touch with some of the more essential and attractive 
aspects of the nature of what poetry is in the culture, and thus become 
something of  a novelty, a fringe or sub-genre of poetry. Very little of this 
new poetic DNA, if you will, is likely to carry over generation to 
generation. 
Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 17:20:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:20:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lowellness
Message-ID: <92.5a0f1be.2d8391cb@aol.com>

http://www.ruminator.com/hmr/viewArticles_indi.php?id=33

Confessions: The Poetry of Robert Lowell - 
review by Stephen Burt

Most eminent authors lose some fame after their deaths; Lowell?s fortunes 
plummeted.



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 17:30:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:30:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently in the Onion
Message-ID: <d4.7661043.2d8393fe@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/12/04 4:25:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:

> Mr. Kessler's short stories, all written in the style of
>  T.C. Boyle,
David, as an aside, last week on NPR I heard T.C. Boyle interviewed.
He said something like, "The novelists of his generation
really just wanted to front rock-n-roll bands." Do you
think most poets these days are just rockers on the rebound?
Finnegan


From MillB at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 17:59:36 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:59:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently in the Onion
Message-ID: <1a5.2091c94e.2d839ad8@aol.com>


I think a few poets ARE frustrated rock and roll stars.  

One that I know of--Charles Harper Webb.  No guessing on my part: I heard him 
mention it!

Probably a few more from the Stand Up Poetry anthology too.  I vaguely 
remember reading about it in their bios. 

Either that or stand up comedians.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 12 18:06:48 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:06:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <8c.59ad434.2d838e2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01eb01c40886$b570e090$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> In a message dated 3/11/04 1:23:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
> > Among the techniques not being widely used but being effectively used by
> >  a few are: the visiophor (or visual element in a poem that acts as a
> >  metaphor for a significant verbal element of the poem); various other
> >  combinations of text and graphic elements to make a poem; various
> >  infraverbal manipulations (fusion of words, break-up of words, omission
of
> >  letters in words, use of punctuation marks in words, addition of
letters to
> >  words, reversal of spelling, cryptographic manipulation, anagramming
for
> >  serious lyrical purposes), my own various mathematical manipulations of
> >  words (e.g., dividing one word into another, raising words to the power
of
> >  other words, finding the derivative of a verbal image); mixing visual
and
> >  mathematical techniques in the same poem; various misuses of grammar;
> >  various book-making techniques, the use of various objects as holder
> >  essential expressive parts of poems (e.g., pebbles, leaves, bark);
mixing
> >  languages; various kinds of chance procedures; found art techniques . .
>
> Bob, some of these techniques were used by Dadaists and Oulipo-ets
> weren't they?

Possibly.  Remember, I'm not saying they're new, just that they're were not
in wide use by the fifties, nor now.  There's also the question of whether a
thing used with no real aesthetic rationale can be called a technique.  Or,
can a device be called a device before it is used meaningfully?

>Also, some of these are attempts to break from the >fetters of
'speech/text=language' as we know it.

I don't think so.  They seem to me attempts to expand the possibilities of
language.  Though, of course, some use use them for other than aesthetic
purposes.

>Though that may be what drives the
> art of certain 'writers' (that term starts to slip when the graphical
begins
> to
> outstrip the literary), I think that poets, even many experimental ones,
are
> captivated by what can be done within the bounds of language as language.
> A great part of the appeal of the art of poetry will always be the
simplicity
> of the material from which its made: words as they are commonly understood
> to mean and commonly applied and manipulated in order to communicate.
> When the art of poetry begins to go too far afield from the purposes
> and uses of language as a vehicle of evocation and/or narrative often
> accompanied by an experience of sounds and rhythms, when it becomes
> infraverbal, concrete and graphical, it may still be making art, but it is
> likely
> to begin to lose touch with some of the more essential and attractive
> aspects of the nature of what poetry is in the culture,

I think it is slowly doing the opposite.  Having started out for many of its
practitioners as a repudiation of "the more essential and attractive aspects
of what poetry is in the culture," it is rediscovering them.  I foresee new
Cantos that have passages of conventional poetry mixed with outbursts of
full-color visual poetry, for instance.  (Pound's had some visual poetry,
and some infraverbal poetry.)  I hope to compose one such sequence, myself

>and thus become
> something of  a novelty, a fringe or sub-genre of poetry. Very little of
this
> new poetic DNA, if you will, is likely to carry over generation to
> generation.
> Finnegan

We'll see.  Or, I should say, people thirty or younger will see.  (Note: a
quite successful children's book, Betsy Franco's Mathematickles, is out.
It's a collection of mathematical poems using my long division device, as
the author flatteringly acknowledges in the book; I don't know how it's
selling but she's gotten good reviews, and tells me teachers love it.  I'm
hoping, naturally, that the brighter kids who see it will eventually take to
my more complicated mathematickles.)

--Bob G.





From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Mar 12 19:19:23 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:19:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently in the Onion
In-Reply-To: <d4.7661043.2d8393fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000401c40890$dca43b80$a2311c40@Emily>

Yes.


++
Do you
think most poets these days are just rockers on the rebound?
Finnegan
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 21:51:33 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:51:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Cid Corman
Message-ID: <a8.294556d0.2d83d135@aol.com>

LA CANTINA

An old friend has gone, a dear friend.
They gather in the back room in the cantina
with roast lamb, tomatoes, olives
and a huge loaf of brown bread.

There are no women. Only a pale angel
in ancient papier-mache,
the trumpet faintly gold at the lips,
leans over them from destruction.

They drain their pitchers of coarse red wine,
the wine breaks into and fills their hearts,
their voices as one burst from their mouths
ascending. The angel does not hear,

but the men in the central hall, they hear
the cheer and the beat beaten
along the long table. And the men,
old men, old peasants from the backlands,

old men come out of the rock,
recognize the cry for a friend who has gone
and they, out of the same wine, the same bread,
break forth in mountainous song.


Cid Corman, Sun Rock Man (New Directions, 1970)
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 21:54:10 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:54:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New(s) from the Zoo, 3-12-04
Message-ID: <bb.3d2c8e7a.2d83d1d2@aol.com>

Subj:   New(s) from the Zoo, 3-12-04?   
Date:   3/12/2004 4:00:07 PM Eastern Standard Time  
From:   editors at zoopress.org    
To: editors at zoopress.org    
Sent from the Internet (Details)    
    
New(s) from the Zoo, 3-12-04


***Kenyon Review deadline is Monday, 3/15***
(http://www.zoopress.org/poetry/kenyonreviewprize.html)


1) We've moved down the road to the beautiful Old Market district in Omaha.
Our new address is Zoo Press, PO Box 3528, Omaha, NE 68103. Our distributor,
how one orders books, our contests, emails, phone number and Web site and
everything else will remain the same.


2) Join us at AWP for a reading on Thursday March 25th at 1pm in the Crystal
Room, with Eric Ormsby, Joe Harrison, Randall Mann (Kenyon Review Prize
Winner), Jennifer Anna Gosetti-Ferencei (Paris Review Prize Winner) and Jeff
Tweedy (of Wilco and Uncle Tupelo fame), our first author in a new series
here called Nightingale Editions:
http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_nightingale.html.


3) In the fall of 2004, Zoo Press will assume control of The Nebraska
Review, a biannual literary magazine that's been continuously published for
over 25 years. The new editors will be Neil Azevedo, EiC, Max Watman, prose
and Mark Wunderlich, poetry. We urge all of you to check out our online
presence at the Zoo Press site next fall, and pick up a copy too.


4) The Spring books will be available March 28th,
http://www.zoopress.org/catalogue/:

Complaint in the Garden by Randall Mann (2003 Kenyon Review Prize Winner)

Laws by Rachel Hadas

Daybreak at the Straits by Eric Ormsby

Someone Else's Name by Joseph Harrison (intro by Anthony Hecht)

Adult Head by Jeff Tweedy


5) Starting this spring, we'll be launching our new series, Nightingale
Editions, with an original book of poems by Jeff Tweedy of the popular music
band Wilco and formerly of Uncle Tupelo. Nightingale books will endeavor to
explore the relationship between literature and music. For more, please
visit our Web site: http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_nightingale.html.


6) The winner of the 2003 Paris Review Prize in Poetry is Patricia Ferrell's
30 YEARS WAR: LOVE POEMS. Born March 29, 1966 and raised in Northern Florida
and Georgia, Patricia Ferrell currently resides in Manhattan making a living
as an eBay alchemist turning the trash of New York City into gold. She was
educated at Georgia State University in Atlanta and ASU.

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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Mar 12 22:18:26 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:18:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lowellness
References: <92.5a0f1be.2d8391cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006501c408a9$da0fcba0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Not a negative review, though --

"Does Lowell now look as powerful as he did then? He does?though not always
in the same places, nor for the same reasons. "



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 5:20 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lowellness


http://www.ruminator.com/hmr/viewArticles_indi.php?id=33

Confessions: The Poetry of Robert Lowell -
review by Stephen Burt

Most eminent authors lose some fame after their deaths; Lowell?s fortunes
plummeted.

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Thom424 at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 23:45:42 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:45:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
Message-ID: <cf.76b47a2.2d83ebf6@aol.com>

 OTHELLO: 'Tis true: there's magic in the web...."

*OTHELLO*, Act III, Sc, IV


thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Mar 12 23:59:43 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:59:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: shakespeare's web - was Re: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
In-Reply-To: <cf.76b47a2.2d83ebf6@aol.com>
References: <cf.76b47a2.2d83ebf6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040312234823.W40517@kpaul.spinweb.net>

touche'

;)

-kpaul

All's Well That Ends Well
Act 4, Scene 3

First Lord	The web of our life is of a mingled yarn, good and
	ill together: our virtues would be proud, if our
	faults whipped them not; and our crimes would
	despair, if they were not cherished by our virtues.



On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

>  OTHELLO: 'Tis true: there's magic in the web...."
>
> *OTHELLO*, Act III, Sc, IV
>
>
> thom tammaro
> moorhead, mn
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 13 08:19:17 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:19:17 -0500
Subject: shakespeare's web - was Re: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
References: <cf.76b47a2.2d83ebf6@aol.com> <20040312234823.W40517@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <008301c408fd$cba6f080$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Aw, come on, Karl--let's just stay with the magic of the web.  For some
reason, that appeals to me. . . .

--Bobg



Subject: shakespeare's web - was Re: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry


> touche'
>
> ;)
>
> -kpaul
>
> All's Well That Ends Well
> Act 4, Scene 3
>
> First Lord The web of our life is of a mingled yarn, good and
> ill together: our virtues would be proud, if our
> faults whipped them not; and our crimes would
> despair, if they were not cherished by our virtues.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >  OTHELLO: 'Tis true: there's magic in the web...."
> >
> > *OTHELLO*, Act III, Sc, IV
> >
> >
> > thom tammaro
> > moorhead, mn
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sat Mar 13 09:34:44 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:34:44 -0500
Subject: shakespeare's web - was Re: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
Message-ID: <191690-220043613143444982@M2W038.mail2web.com>

Is this the derivation of "yarn" as a long, meandering story?

Original Message:
-----------------
From: kpaul mallasch kpaul at mallasch.com
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:59:43 -0500 (EST)
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: shakespeare's web - was Re: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry


touche'

;)

-kpaul

All's Well That Ends Well
Act 4, Scene 3

First Lord	The web of our life is of a mingled yarn, good and
	ill together: our virtues would be proud, if our
	faults whipped them not; and our crimes would
	despair, if they were not cherished by our virtues.



On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

>  OTHELLO: 'Tis true: there's magic in the web...."
>
> *OTHELLO*, Act III, Sc, IV
>
>
> thom tammaro
> moorhead, mn
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sat Mar 13 10:09:56 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:09:56 -0500
Subject: shakespeare's web - was Re: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog Entry
In-Reply-To: <191690-220043613143444982@M2W038.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <7CBA1322-7500-11D8-991F-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Saturday, March 13, 2004, at 09:34 AM, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> Is this the derivation of "yarn" as a long, meandering story?

The Sanskrit _sutra_, for a collection of aphorisms or verses, means 
"thread;" the metaphor goes back a long way.  Sutures and 
tale-spinners, fabrications and email exchanges.

Wendy




> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: kpaul mallasch kpaul at mallasch.com
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:59:43 -0500 (EST)
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: shakespeare's web - was Re: [New-Poetry] Re: My Latest Blog 
> Entry
>
>
> touche'
>
> ;)
>
> -kpaul
>
> All's Well That Ends Well
> Act 4, Scene 3
>
> First Lord	The web of our life is of a mingled yarn, good and
> 	ill together: our virtues would be proud, if our
> 	faults whipped them not; and our crimes would
> 	despair, if they were not cherished by our virtues.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
>
>>  OTHELLO: 'Tis true: there's magic in the web...."
>>
>> *OTHELLO*, Act III, Sc, IV
>>
>>
>> thom tammaro
>> moorhead, mn
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
       --Shunryu Suzuki



From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Mar 13 11:13:30 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:13:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEJDIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <011a01c40916$20e0cb30$320c9942@Helen>



There are languages

and there is language
and then there is this 

man - man - blowing his 

head off - letting it 
all - all the nothing -

hang loose as color.

Cid Corman 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:11 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"


> 
> The Offerings
> 
> Too many things on the altar.
> 
> A petal would do.
> 
> Or the ant that stops for a moment
> at it.
> 
> --Cid Corman
> 
> in *Origin* VIII / January 1963
> and *The Gist of Origin*
> [New York: Grossman Publishers, 1975]
> 
> 
> 
> Hal         
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 13 11:26:54 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:26:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEJDIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <011a01c40916$20e0cb30$320c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <010701c40918$00da7b40$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

He was definitely one of our best ones.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"


> 
> 
> 
> There are languages
> 
> and there is language
> and then there is this 
> 
> man - man - blowing his 
> 
> head off - letting it 
> all - all the nothing -
> 
> hang loose as color.
> 
> Cid Corman 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:11 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Cid Corman (1924-2004): "The Offerings"
> 
> 
> > 
> > The Offerings
> > 
> > Too many things on the altar.
> > 
> > A petal would do.
> > 
> > Or the ant that stops for a moment
> > at it.
> > 
> > --Cid Corman
> > 
> > in *Origin* VIII / January 1963
> > and *The Gist of Origin*
> > [New York: Grossman Publishers, 1975]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hal         
> > 
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ===============
> > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Mar 13 11:33:18 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:33:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
Message-ID: <20040313163318.DDF917276@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 13 12:00:35 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:00:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <20040313163318.DDF917276@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <011b01c4091c$b58038b0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> James,
>
> You have written, among other things:  "Very little of this new poetic
DNA, if you will, is likely to carry over generation to generation."
> Finnegan
>
> To which I reply: "This poetic DNA is not really new if you think about
where the first beginnings of a written language.  The uses of symbolic
shapes, forms, from animals, mountains, trees, and rudimentary mathematical
concepts have been with us prior to any idea of carbon dating, let alone the
concept of DNA."
>
> Bob

Right.  But they were not methodically used to produce the kinds of poems
burstnorm poets are making today.

--Bob G.




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 12:20:41 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:20:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyn Hejinian live webcast Mar 23
Message-ID: <12c.3cd552ee.2d849ce9@aol.com>

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? KELLY WRITERS HOUSE FELLOWS

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? presents

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? a conversation with

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? LYN HEJINIAN

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? via live worldwide webcast
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? --------------------------

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Tuesday, March 23, 10:30 AM (eastern time)


? ? ? ?? RSVP required to: whfellow at writing.upenn.edu or 215.573.9749

?? When you rsvp, we will send you instructions for joining us by webcast.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lyn Hejinian is a poet, essayist, and translator; she was born in the San
Francisco Bay Area and lives in Berkeley. Published collections of her
writing include Writing is An Aid to Memory, My Life, Oxota: A Short Russian
Novel, Leningrad (written in collaboration with Michael Davidson, Ron
Silliman, and Barrett Watten), The Cell, The Cold of Poetry, and A Border
Comedy; the University of California Press published a collection of her
essays entitled The Language of Inquiry. She has travelled and lectured
extensively in Russia as well as Europe, and Description and Xenia, two
volumes of her translations from the work of the contemporary Russian poet
Arkadii Dragomoshchenko, have been published by Sun and Moon Press. From
1976 to 1984, Hejinian was the editor of Tuumba Press and from 1981 to 1999
she was the co-editor (with Barrett Watten) of Poetics Journal. She is also
the co-director (with Travis Ortiz) of Atelos, a literary project
commissioning and publishing cross-genre work by poets; Atelos was nominated
as one of the best independent literary presses by the Firecracker Awards in
2001. Other collaborative projects include a work entitled The Eye of
Enduring undertaken with the painter Diane Andrews Hall and exhibited in
1996, a composition entitled Qu? Tr?n with music by John Zorn and text by
Hejinian, a mixed media book entitled The Traveler and the Hill and the Hill
created with the painter Emilie Clark (Granary Press, 1998), and the
experimental film Letters Not About Love, directed by Jacki Ochs, for which
Hejinian and Arkadii Dragomoshchenko wrote the script. In the fall of 2000,
she was elected the sixty-sixth Fellow of the Academy of American Poets.


? ? ?? for more information: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow


? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? previous Fellows:

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Russell Banks? ? ? ? ?? 2004
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Susan Sontag? ? ? ? ? ? 2003
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Walter Bernstein
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Laurie Anderson
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? John Ashbery? ? ? ? ? ? 2002
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Charles Fuller
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Michael Cunningham
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? June Jordan? ? ? ? ? ?? 2001
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? David Sedaris
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Tony Kushner
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Grace Paley? ? ? ? ? ?? 2000
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Robert Creeley
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? John Edgar Wideman
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Gay Talese? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1999

?? recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here:

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 13 12:49:44 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:49:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyn Hejinian live webcast Mar 23
References: <12c.3cd552ee.2d849ce9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014401c40923$93155290$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Note, James, that Lyn Hejinian is in the Academy of Poets--evidence that some people using what I call new techniques are getting some acceptance.

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 12:20 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyn Hejinian live webcast Mar 23


                          KELLY WRITERS HOUSE FELLOWS

                                   presents

                              a conversation with

                                 LYN HEJINIAN

                           via live worldwide webcast
                           --------------------------

                    Tuesday, March 23, 10:30 AM (eastern time)


           RSVP required to: whfellow at writing.upenn.edu or 215.573.9749

     When you rsvp, we will send you instructions for joining us by webcast.

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Lyn Hejinian is a poet, essayist, and translator; she was born in the San
  Francisco Bay Area and lives in Berkeley. Published collections of her
  writing include Writing is An Aid to Memory, My Life, Oxota: A Short Russian
  Novel, Leningrad (written in collaboration with Michael Davidson, Ron
  Silliman, and Barrett Watten), The Cell, The Cold of Poetry, and A Border
  Comedy; the University of California Press published a collection of her
  essays entitled The Language of Inquiry. She has travelled and lectured
  extensively in Russia as well as Europe, and Description and Xenia, two
  volumes of her translations from the work of the contemporary Russian poet
  Arkadii Dragomoshchenko, have been published by Sun and Moon Press. From
  1976 to 1984, Hejinian was the editor of Tuumba Press and from 1981 to 1999
  she was the co-editor (with Barrett Watten) of Poetics Journal. She is also
  the co-director (with Travis Ortiz) of Atelos, a literary project
  commissioning and publishing cross-genre work by poets; Atelos was nominated
  as one of the best independent literary presses by the Firecracker Awards in
  2001. Other collaborative projects include a work entitled The Eye of
  Enduring undertaken with the painter Diane Andrews Hall and exhibited in
  1996, a composition entitled Qu? Tr?n with music by John Zorn and text by
  Hejinian, a mixed media book entitled The Traveler and the Hill and the Hill
  created with the painter Emilie Clark (Granary Press, 1998), and the
  experimental film Letters Not About Love, directed by Jacki Ochs, for which
  Hejinian and Arkadii Dragomoshchenko wrote the script. In the fall of 2000,
  she was elected the sixty-sixth Fellow of the Academy of American Poets.


         for more information: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow


                                          previous Fellows:

                                          Russell Banks           2004
                                          Susan Sontag            2003
                                          Walter Bernstein
                                          Laurie Anderson
                                          John Ashbery            2002
                                          Charles Fuller
                                          Michael Cunningham
                                          June Jordan             2001
                                          David Sedaris
                                          Tony Kushner
                                          Grace Paley             2000
                                          Robert Creeley
                                          John Edgar Wideman
                                          Gay Talese              1999

     recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here:

                  http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 13:01:43 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:01:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
Message-ID: <1a3.2186beed.2d84a687@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/13/2004 12:01:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> >You have written, among other things:  "Very little of this new poetic
> DNA, if you will, is likely to carry over generation to generation."
> >Finnegan
> >
> >To which I reply: "This poetic DNA is not really new if you think about
> where the first beginnings of a written language.  The uses of symbolic
> shapes, forms, from animals, mountains, trees, and rudimentary mathematical
> concepts have been with us prior to any idea of carbon dating, let alone the
> concept of DNA."
> >
> >Bob
> 
> Right.  But they were not methodically used to produce the kinds of poems
> burstnorm poets are making today.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 

Bob & Bob, I must have ben unclear in that post...because
you both seem to have missed the point...

Bob C: I was using "poetic DNA" as a figure of speech 
to conceptualize those poetic techniques that are part
of the language and that are replicated and perpetuated 
through the ages. Figures of speech, which are as old as
hills, would be examples of very old coding carried forward
within the language because of their literary utility and aesthetic
characteristics.  

Bob G: A "visiophor", which was one of your terms
for a post-1950 technique, would, to extend the figure 
somewhat, be an example of a "mutation" or new poetic DNA, 
which may or may not be carried forward in poetry over
time. (BTW, could you post an example of a visiophor...
I'm not certain I know what one is.)
Anyway I thought you said it was these new techniques 
that you and your favored poets were inclined to employ
over the older poetic techniques? 
Finnegan 
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 13 14:26:35 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:26:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  William Bronk, "Aspects of the World Like Coral Reefs"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEMEIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

One of the poets that Cid Corman (1924-2004) published 
early on was William Bronk.


Aspects of the World Like Coral Reefs

In the spring woods, how good it is to see
again the trees, old company,
how they have withstood the winter, their girth.

By gradual actions, how the gross earth
gathers around us and grows real, is there,
as though it were really there, and is good.

Certain stars, of stupendous size, are said
to be such and such distances away,--
oh, farther than our eyes along would ever see.

Thus magnified, the whole evidence
of our senses is belied. For it is not
possible for miles to add miles to miles

forever, not even if expressed as the speed of light.
The fault lies partly in the idea of miles.
It is absurd to describe the world in sensible terms.

How good that even so, aspects of the world
that are real, or seem to be real, should rise like reefs
whose rough agglomerate smashes the sea.

--William Bronk

fr. *Origin* VI, Summer 1952

in *The Gist of Origin* ed. Cid Corman
[New York: Grossman Publishers, 1975]


Hal           

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 13 15:19:36 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:19:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <1a3.2186beed.2d84a687@aol.com>
Message-ID: <016f01c40938$95c28bb0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Bob G: A "visiophor", which was one of your terms
for a post-1950 technique, would, to extend the figure 
somewhat, be an example of a "mutation" or new poetic DNA, 
which may or may not be carried forward in poetry over
time. (BTW, could you post an example of a visiophor...
I'm not certain I know what one is.)


                             lighght


Here's my old standby, James.  I consider this primarily an infraverbal poem because its main effect for me is its alphaconceptual use of silent letters as a . . . juxtaphor.  But it its spelling is also a (simple) visiophor.  The way it is spelled, or its visual appearance, with extra letters, is a visual metaphor for light, as an essence that spreads.  If that was all there was to this particular poem, it wouldn't be very good.


another:  
                                 O


 

     


                       GL  RIA

Ladislav Novak

Viosphor: the visual appearance of the word, "gloria," with its o displaced high above it;

referent of the visiophor: the denotation of the word, "gloria."

Visiophorical expression: gloria is a word with it o soaring above it


Anyway I thought you said it was these new techniques 
that you and your favored poets were inclined to employ
over the older poetic techniques? 
Finnegan 

Actually, I said these new techniques are used by some of my favored poets and me, sometimes.  Not sure how that contradicts anything else I've said.

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Mar 13 21:31:12 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:31:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyn Hejinian live webcast Mar 23
Message-ID: <1ad.20e978c4.2d851df0@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/13/2004 12:51:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> 
> Note, James, that Lyn Hejinian is in the Academy of Poets--evidence that 
> some people using what I call new techniques are getting some acceptance.
>   
> --Bob G.
> 

Bob, we both agree that certain new techniques will go forward
in poetry. The only questions is which ones will survive and for 
how long will their influence be felt in poetry. 

Hejinian's sanction by the Academy is double-edged.
It indicates that language poetry is no longer the completely 
political venture it started out as, and that some still purport it 
to be.  And it's an indication that language poetry is being 
subsumed, however fitfully and incompletely, by the mainstream. 
But I think that many of the techniques you've championed
are safe for now.  
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 13 21:48:53 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:48:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyn Hejinian live webcast Mar 23
References: <1ad.20e978c4.2d851df0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <025901c4096e$e51556d0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 3/13/2004 12:51:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:



    Note, James, that Lyn Hejinian is in the Academy of Poets--evidence that some people using what I call new techniques are getting some acceptance.
      
    --Bob G.



  Bob, we both agree that certain new techniques will go forward
  in poetry. The only questions is which ones will survive and for 
  how long will their influence be felt in poetry. 

  Hejinian's sanction by the Academy is double-edged.
  It indicates that language poetry is no longer the completely 
  political venture it started out as, and that some still purport it 
  to be.  And it's an indication that language poetry is being 
  subsumed, however fitfully and incompletely, by the mainstream. 
  But I think that many of the techniques you've championed
  are safe for now.  
  Finnegan 

  Whew, thanks, James.  One last question: cany you think of any poetic technique that was ever used by more than a dozen people that was then discarded by all poets?  I'm sure there are poetic forms once used that we'll probably never see again, but none of the auditory poetic devices will likely be dumped.  The visiophor won't, either, though that name for it will probably never catch on.  It may never be widely used, though.  Apparently few people have the desire to combine expressive modalities when creating or experiencing art.

  --Bob G.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 14 09:43:15 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:43:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: William Bronk, "The Arts and Death: A Fugue for Sidney Cox"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOAIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


The Arts and Death: A Fugue for Sidney Cox

I think always how we always miss it. Not
anything is ever entirely true.

Death dominates my mind. I
Do not stop thinking how time will stop.
How time has stopped, does stop. Those dead--
their done time. Time does us in.

Mark how we make music, images,
how we term words, name names,
how, having named, assume the named begins
here, stops there, add this attribute,
subtract this other: here the mold begins
to harden. This toy soldier has
edges, can be painted, picked up,
moved from place to place, used to mean
one or many. Within the game we play,
we understand. See his leaden gun
or saber, how deadly for aid or for
destruction as we aim him, and he is bold, 
a game soldier. We play games
however serious we aim to be.
A true aim, a toy soldier, I think
always, how we always miss the aim.

Ponder the vast debris of the dead, the great
uncounted numbers, the long, the endless list
of only their names, if anyone knew their names.
Joined to the dead already, to those known
who have died already, are we not also joined
to many we would have known in their time--
to one in Ilium, say, who thought of the dead?
In the world's long continuum, it is not
the names of the dead, but the dead themselves who are like
names, like terms, toy soldiers, words.

I think always how we always miss it; how the dead
have not been final, and life has always required
to be stated again, which is not ever stated.
It is not art's statements only, not
what we try to say by music,  not the way
this picture sculptures sight itself
to see this picture--not by art alone
the aim is missed, and even least of all
by art (which tries a whole world at once,
a composition). No, it is in our terms,
the terms themselves, which break apart, divide,
discriminate, set chasms in that wide,
unbroken experience of the senses which
goes on and on, that radiation inward and out,
that consciousness which we divide, compare,
compose, make things and persons of, make forms,
make I and you. World, world, I am scared
and waver in awe before the wilderness
of raw consciousness, because it is all
dark and formlessness: and it is real
this passion that we feel for forms. But the forms
are never real. Are not really there. Are not.

I think always how we always miss the real.

There still are wars though all the soldiers fall.

We live in a world we never understand.

Our lives end nothing. Oh there is never an end.

--William Bronk


fr. *Origin* XIX / Summer 1956; ed. Cid Corman

in *The Gist of Origin* ed. Cid Corman
[New York: Grossman Publishers, 1975]


Hal                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardPoems by others: William Bronk, "The Arts and Death: A Fugue for Sidney Cox"



From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Mar 14 00:02:54 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:02:54 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
In-Reply-To: <200403141701.i2EH1DXE019729@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200403141701.i2EH1DXE019729@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc7995304d2c@[204.215.201.156]>

Thanks, Bob, for finally opening up your anatomy of critical terms. 
The author of

			lighght

- - - Aram Saroyan, who used to orbit through the Grolier Bookshop in 
the mid Seventies.

One time we were conferring and I shared, unwisely, my own concrete 
one word poem, whcih he stole and published.  Great poets, what's the 
line, don't imitate, they steal!

			Shakespeare!

Visiophor>

Hmmm.

			   "!"



   - - - - - -

Richard Dillon
ELEMENOPE Productions

   - - - - - -

>
>
>Bob G: A "visiophor", which was one of your terms
>for a post-1950 technique, would, to extend the figure=20
>somewhat, be an example of a "mutation" or new poetic DNA,=20
>which may or may not be carried forward in poetry over
>time. (BTW, could you post an example of a visiophor...
>I'm not certain I know what one is.)
>
>
>                              lighght
>
>
>Here's my old standby, James.  I consider this primarily an infraverbal =
>poem because its main effect for me is its alphaconceptual use of silent =
>letters as a . . . juxtaphor.  But it its spelling is also a (simple) =
>visiophor.  The way it is spelled, or its visual appearance, with extra =
>letters, is a visual metaphor for light, as an essence that spreads.  If =
>that was all there was to this particular poem, it wouldn't be very =
>good.
>
>
>another: =20
>                                  O
>
>
>=20
>
>     =20
>
>
>                        GL  RIA
>
>Ladislav Novak
>
>Viosphor: the visual appearance of the word, "gloria," with its o =
>displaced high above it;
>
>referent of the visiophor: the denotation of the word, "gloria."
>
>Visiophorical expression: gloria is a word with it o soaring above it
>
>
>Anyway I thought you said it was these new techniques=20
>that you and your favored poets were inclined to employ
>over the older poetic techniques?=20
>Finnegan=20
>
>Actually, I said these new techniques are used by some of my favored =
>poets and me, sometimes.  Not sure how that contradicts anything else =
>I've said.
>
--Bob G
-- 


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Mar 14 13:24:35 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:24:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
In-Reply-To: <016f01c40938$95c28bb0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BC79FF83.753F%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 3/13/04 2:19 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

                             lighght
 

I'm a pretty fast but pretty sloppy typist, and I've written the above poem
a number of times. 

But I'm not asking for credit.  No, it just goes to show that great ideas do
not belong to an individual but to everyone.

Another of my innovations, which I innovate roughly three times per page, is
the following poem:

                              hte

At the most obvious level, this is of course a "dendrophor," my term for a
typo that wastes paper.  But more interestingly, in addition to the obvious
(superficial) critical challenge presented to orthographic fascism, my poem
raises important questions of lexical priority, by way of a subtle but
penetrating examination of our culture's complicated responses to "curved"
and "straight" elements of typography.

Note, in the poem, how there is a barely restrained tension between the soft
flowing curves of "h" and "e" and the harsh intrusiveness of the "t."  These
tensions exist, of course, on both the orthographic and aural levels.

But, and this is the real genius of the poem, note how the "t" cannot resist
a little curvy flourish at its (tail) end, a little nod to the community of
(feminine) curviness within or at least at the fringes of patriarchal
linearity.

Later maybe I'll explicate my other common innovation (a pathbreaking poem
Bill Gates does not want you to see--which must be why my copy of MS Word is
default-set to eliminate it every time I type it):


                          ANd


This one is more subtle but more subversive, I feel.  I'm still not sure
I've seen all the implications, but I'm still working on it.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Mar 14 13:48:59 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:48:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
In-Reply-To: <BC79FF83.753F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <41145613-75E8-11D8-81FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 01:24 PM, David Graham wrote:

> ANd

You know, David, I really like this one.

Wendy



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 14 13:51:17 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:51:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suddenly
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEOIIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I'm struck by the fact that one thing Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and 
I all have in common that we pay Social Security taxes on only the 
first $87,000 of our incomes. Is this a great country or what?

Hal                El chofer no carga dinero

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Mar 14 14:15:20 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:15:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <41145613-75E8-11D8-81FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <003601c409f8$b23b8100$0e0c9942@Helen>

I prefer  hte - 
but I believe he took it from a previous manuscipt of mine . . . .
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Techniques


> On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 01:24 PM, David Graham wrote:
> 
> > ANd
> 
> You know, David, I really like this one.
> 
> Wendy
> 
> 
> 
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> ----------------------------
> How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
> followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
> pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
>              -Tung-shan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From schroesd at adelphia.net  Sun Mar 14 14:29:56 2004
From: schroesd at adelphia.net (Steven Schroeder)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:29:56 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <41145613-75E8-11D8-81FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <003601c409f8$b23b8100$0e0c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <001301c409fa$bbe72c20$99171543@STEVECOMPUTER>

Bah! This poem is nothing compared to my "teh"!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Helen Ruggieri 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 12:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Techniques


  I prefer  hte - 
  but I believe he took it from a previous manuscipt of mine . . . .
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
  To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
  Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Techniques


  > On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 01:24 PM, David Graham wrote:
  > 
  > > ANd
  > 
  > You know, David, I really like this one.
  > 
  > Wendy
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Wendy Battin
  > wjbat at conncoll.edu
  > ----------------------------
  > How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
  > followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
  > pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
  >              -Tung-shan
  > 
  > _______________________________________________
  > New-Poetry mailing list
  > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
  > 
  > 

  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 14 17:19:18 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:19:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <200403141701.i2EH1DXE019729@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc7995304d2c@[204.215.201.156]>
Message-ID: <011401c40a12$6946c030$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Thanks, Bob, for finally opening up your anatomy of critical terms.
> The author of
>
> lighght
>
> - - - Aram Saroyan, who used to orbit through the Grolier Bookshop in
> the mid Seventies.
>
> One time we were conferring and I shared, unwisely, my own concrete
> one word poem, whcih he stole and published.  Great poets, what's the
> line, don't imitate, they steal!

Now, now, Richard--he probably forgot your word, then later remembered it
but thought it was new, and his.  The trouble with one-word concrete poems
is that a lot of them are discovered independently.  It's also hard to
recognize one as a particular person's, even when the particular person is
you.  In my notes, I once found a great pwoermd, as Geof Huth would call it,
and hoped it might be mine.  I checked with a friend, though, and found out
it was his.  Hmmm, maybe it wasn't!


> Shakespeare!
>
> Visiophor>
>
> Hmmm.
>
>    "!"

Exclamation point as visiophor for Shakespeare's spear?

--Bob G.




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 14 17:25:29 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:25:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a reminder . . .
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEPCIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

*Changing the Subject* by Jim Cervantes and yours truly
is available now from Red Hen Press

	http://www.redhen.org/cts.htm

and via www.amazon.com .

Hal                El chofer no carga dinero

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 14 18:03:01 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:03:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <BC79FF83.753F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <015201c40a18$83b35f40$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Great parodies, David.  Now I'll share with you two of mine:

Roses are red;
I wish they were blue instead.

Note the craft, the unexpected rhyme (red/stead), the deft alliteration of
the r-words in the first line, the w-words in the second.  The resistance to
doing anything poems haven't been doing for five hundred years in English.

Now a William Matthews poem:

I almost killed my cat yesterday.
I know, you probably think I'm being
over-dramatic to grab your attention.
If you had a cat, you wouldn't think that.

What happened was
I was trying to fix the flap-support,
I guess you'd call it,
on a heavy wooden folding table of mine.
My cat investigated, being a cat.

I tried to force this dowel-thing
that sticks up from the support
into the groove in the main part of the table's underside that is designed
for it
and in the process the rest of the support
suddenly lurched sidways
and the flap it was supporting folded.

I know a lot of you morbid sons of bitches out there
are hoping my cat (Shirley) came out of it
with one of those Warner Brothers' pancake heads,
or at least colored stars and exclamation points
jumping from it,
but she just darted away.

I later, out of curiosity, checked her height.
Turns out she's about a sixteenth of an inch too short
for the flap to have hit her.


****

All I'll say about this is, wow, is it unique.

--Bob G.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:24 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques


> on 3/13/04 2:19 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:
>
>                              lighght
>
>
> I'm a pretty fast but pretty sloppy typist, and I've written the above
poem
> a number of times.
>
> But I'm not asking for credit.  No, it just goes to show that great ideas
do
> not belong to an individual but to everyone.
>
> Another of my innovations, which I innovate roughly three times per page,
is
> the following poem:
>
>                               hte
>
> At the most obvious level, this is of course a "dendrophor," my term for a
> typo that wastes paper.  But more interestingly, in addition to the
obvious
> (superficial) critical challenge presented to orthographic fascism, my
poem
> raises important questions of lexical priority, by way of a subtle but
> penetrating examination of our culture's complicated responses to "curved"
> and "straight" elements of typography.
>
> Note, in the poem, how there is a barely restrained tension between the
soft
> flowing curves of "h" and "e" and the harsh intrusiveness of the "t."
These
> tensions exist, of course, on both the orthographic and aural levels.
>
> But, and this is the real genius of the poem, note how the "t" cannot
resist
> a little curvy flourish at its (tail) end, a little nod to the community
of
> (feminine) curviness within or at least at the fringes of patriarchal
> linearity.
>
> Later maybe I'll explicate my other common innovation (a pathbreaking poem
> Bill Gates does not want you to see--which must be why my copy of MS Word
is
> default-set to eliminate it every time I type it):
>
>
>                           ANd
>
>
> This one is more subtle but more subversive, I feel.  I'm still not sure
> I've seen all the implications, but I'm still working on it.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Mar 14 18:43:36 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:43:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a reminder . . .
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEPCIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <69AF5F92-7611-11D8-81FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

And will be available at AWP/Chicago?   Remind us of the date and time 
for your book signing?

Wendy


On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 05:25 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> *Changing the Subject* by Jim Cervantes and yours truly
> is available now from Red Hen Press
>
> 	http://www.redhen.org/cts.htm
>
> and via www.amazon.com .
>
>

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
--------------------------

enstasy



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 14 19:12:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:12:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <BC79FF83.753F%grahamd@ripon.edu> <015201c40a18$83b35f40$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <019301c40a22$416db090$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Poem's Patience is Rewarded

Poem spent months on the dump
studying the the.
He knew that poetry
can't permanently stop growing,
even in the starkest 
wand's winter of our finest poet,
but where, he wondered, was even 
the smallest flicker of anywhere further
in the absolute black 
just beyond the the?

Yet, as he wondered and wondered, 
he wore slowly down
to the edge of his voice, then at last
into something long-lost
that was more primary than voice, and there 
in a black somehow increased from the black
it had been before, 
he began to make out
hints of the hte.

--Bob Grumman





From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 14 21:50:57 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:50:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a reminder . . .
In-Reply-To: <69AF5F92-7611-11D8-81FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEPHIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Looks like I'm scheduled to be at the Red Hen booth (#B-9) Thurs. 2:30-3:30;
Fri. 2-3; and Sat. 10-11. Jim's down only for one of those, the second. How'd
you manage that, Jim?

Hal
  
{    And will be available at AWP/Chicago?   Remind us of the date and time 
{    for your book signing?
{    
{    Wendy
{    
{    
{    On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 05:25 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    
{    >
{    > *Changing the Subject* by Jim Cervantes and yours truly
{    > is available now from Red Hen Press
{    >
{    > 	http://www.redhen.org/cts.htm
{    >
{    > and via www.amazon.com .
{    >
{    >
{    
{    Wendy Battin
{    wjbat at conncoll.edu
{    --------------------------
{    
{    enstasy
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Mar 15 07:16:08 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:16:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c40a87$5278fce0$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Charles Borkhuis:
Surrealism, Language Poetry & 
New American Aesthetics

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Cid Corman:
1924-2004

Noah Eli Gordon:
boxing with the ghost of Spicer

Lisa Jarnot:
Swamp Formalism

An anthology of response 
to the test of poetry

Hong Hao, William T. Wiley, 
Hermann Nitsch
& Henry Winkler avoiding eye contact:
Visual art in NYC

A test of poetry:
anonymity & context

Woundwood:
The joy of a new book

Chris Stroffolino on The Dreamers
(Medium Cool)

Sunday Morning Anthology:
Nine poets in Somerville, MA

Bill Bathurst & Richard Brautigan -
Deciding to stop

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

*	*	*

My latest book Woundwood
is available from Cuneiform Press:
http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html






From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 15 07:57:16 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:57:16 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a reminder . . .
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEPHIGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4055A82C.D0B62F94@earthlink.net>

The Fri. 2 - 3 slot is the one when we'll both be there; the others
signal your presence at the table.  Barring any compelling panel on
Sat., 10 - 11, I can be there also.  I'm co-moderating the two-year
caucus during the Thurs., 2:30 - 3:30 slot.  I think Red Hen just put
down the times folks said they were available.  The "official" signing
times are the ones which have names in bold in the pdf file Red Hen sent.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Looks like I'm scheduled to be at the Red Hen booth (#B-9) Thurs. 2:30-3:30;
> Fri. 2-3; and Sat. 10-11. Jim's down only for one of those, the second. How'd
> you manage that, Jim?
> 
> Hal
> 
> {    And will be available at AWP/Chicago?   Remind us of the date and time
> {    for your book signing?
> {
> {    Wendy
> {
> {
> {    On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 05:25 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> {
> {    >
> {    > *Changing the Subject* by Jim Cervantes and yours truly
> {    > is available now from Red Hen Press
> {    >
> {    >  http://www.redhen.org/cts.htm
> {    >
> {    > and via www.amazon.com .
> {    >
> {    >
> {
> {    Wendy Battin
> {    wjbat at conncoll.edu
> {    --------------------------
> {
> {    enstasy
> {
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 15 08:22:30 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:22:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <019301c40a22$416db090$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <405567C6.9600.3AB421@localhost>

> Poem's Patience is Rewarded
> Bob Grumman
> Poem spent months on the dump
> studying the the.
> He knew that poetry
> can't permanently stop growing,
> even in the starkest 
> wand's winter of our finest poet,
> but where, he wondered, was even 
> the smallest flicker of anywhere further
> in the absolute black 
> just beyond the the?
> 
> Yet, as he wondered and wondered, 
> he wore slowly down
> to the edge of his voice, then at last
> into something long-lost
> that was more primary than voice, and there 
> in a black somehow increased from the black
> it had been before, 
> he began to make out
> hints of the hte.

Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any technique not in 
common use in the 50s!

Marcus





From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Mar 15 09:15:37 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:15:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <405567C6.9600.3AB421@localhost>
References: <405567C6.9600.3AB421@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040315091506.F72664@kpaul.spinweb.net>

hte == teh

(small internet joke ;)

-kpaul

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Marcus Bales wrote:

> > Poem's Patience is Rewarded
> > Bob Grumman
> > Poem spent months on the dump
> > studying the the.
> > He knew that poetry
> > can't permanently stop growing,
> > even in the starkest
> > wand's winter of our finest poet,
> > but where, he wondered, was even
> > the smallest flicker of anywhere further
> > in the absolute black
> > just beyond the the?
> >
> > Yet, as he wondered and wondered,
> > he wore slowly down
> > to the edge of his voice, then at last
> > into something long-lost
> > that was more primary than voice, and there
> > in a black somehow increased from the black
> > it had been before,
> > he began to make out
> > hints of the hte.
>
> Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any technique not in
> common use in the 50s!
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 15 09:20:17 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:20:17 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <405567C6.9600.3AB421@localhost> <20040315091506.F72664@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <4055BBA0.12B835DE@earthlink.net>

Further, if you cut off the stalk from the "h" and turn it upside down,
you have a "u" and the possible variants of ute, eut, teu, tue, eut
etc., if there is an etc.

- Jim

kpaul mallasch wrote:
> 
> hte == teh
> 
> (small internet joke ;)
> 
> -kpaul
> 
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> > > Poem's Patience is Rewarded
> > > Bob Grumman
> > > Poem spent months on the dump
> > > studying the the.
> > > He knew that poetry
> > > can't permanently stop growing,
> > > even in the starkest
> > > wand's winter of our finest poet,
> > > but where, he wondered, was even
> > > the smallest flicker of anywhere further
> > > in the absolute black
> > > just beyond the the?
> > >
> > > Yet, as he wondered and wondered,
> > > he wore slowly down
> > > to the edge of his voice, then at last
> > > into something long-lost
> > > that was more primary than voice, and there
> > > in a black somehow increased from the black
> > > it had been before,
> > > he began to make out
> > > hints of the hte.
> >
> > Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any technique not in
> > common use in the 50s!
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 09:46:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:46:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <405567C6.9600.3AB421@localhost>
Message-ID: <037401c40a9c$59aaacb0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> > Poem's Patience is Rewarded
> > Bob Grumman
> > Poem spent months on the dump
> > studying the the.
> > He knew that poetry
> > can't permanently stop growing,
> > even in the starkest
> > wand's winter of our finest poet,
> > but where, he wondered, was even
> > the smallest flicker of anywhere further
> > in the absolute black
> > just beyond the the?
> >
> > Yet, as he wondered and wondered,
> > he wore slowly down
> > to the edge of his voice, then at last
> > into something long-lost
> > that was more primary than voice, and there
> > in a black somehow increased from the black
> > it had been before,
> > he began to make out
> > hints of the hte.
>
> Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any technique not in
> common use in the 50s!
>
> Marcus

What, Marcus,. you don't think David just invented the dendrophor, his
example of which, "hte," plays a pivotal role in my poem?  In point of fact,
"hte," as I use it here (but not as David uses it--i.e., as a joke without
aesthetic value to amuse the Wilbur-to-Ashbury crowd), is an infraverbal
juxtaphor, something absolutely not in wide use in the 50s or now.  Aside
from that, you continue to mistakenly believe (or are you intentionally
misrepresenting me?) that I am against poetry that uses no poetic device not
in wide use by the fifties.  My one published book spends half its pages
favorably discussing such poetry.  What I am against is the belief that ONLY
such poetry is worthy of getting into anthologies, critical essays and
classrooms.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 09:57:15 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:57:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <405567C6.9600.3AB421@localhost> <20040315091506.F72664@kpaul.spinweb.net> <4055BBA0.12B835DE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <038b01c40a9d$d1ebc7d0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's language poetry use of "the"
in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional grammatical solecism for poetic
effect.

--Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 15 10:12:34 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:12:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <038b01c40a9d$d1ebc7d0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40558192.20222.9F7A7A@localhost>

Well, it uses a really old technique.

Marcus


On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:57, Bob Grumman wrote:

> So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's language poetry use of
> "the" in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional grammatical solecism
> for poetic effect.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 10:20:13 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:20:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <037401c40a9c$59aaacb0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20040315152013.20933.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com>

Is an "infraverbal juxtaphor" any kin to a
Tyrannosaurus Rex?

Jeff Newberry

--- Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Poem's Patience is Rewarded
> > > Bob Grumman
> > > Poem spent months on the dump
> > > studying the the.
> > > He knew that poetry
> > > can't permanently stop growing,
> > > even in the starkest
> > > wand's winter of our finest poet,
> > > but where, he wondered, was even
> > > the smallest flicker of anywhere further
> > > in the absolute black
> > > just beyond the the?
> > >
> > > Yet, as he wondered and wondered,
> > > he wore slowly down
> > > to the edge of his voice, then at last
> > > into something long-lost
> > > that was more primary than voice, and there
> > > in a black somehow increased from the black
> > > it had been before,
> > > he began to make out
> > > hints of the hte.
> >
> > Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any
> technique not in
> > common use in the 50s!
> >
> > Marcus
> 
> What, Marcus,. you don't think David just invented
> the dendrophor, his
> example of which, "hte," plays a pivotal role in my
> poem?  In point of fact,
> "hte," as I use it here (but not as David uses
> it--i.e., as a joke without
> aesthetic value to amuse the Wilbur-to-Ashbury
> crowd), is an infraverbal
> juxtaphor, something absolutely not in wide use in
> the 50s or now.  Aside
> from that, you continue to mistakenly believe (or
> are you intentionally
> misrepresenting me?) that I am against poetry that
> uses no poetic device not
> in wide use by the fifties.  My one published book
> spends half its pages
> favorably discussing such poetry.  What I am against
> is the belief that ONLY
> such poetry is worthy of getting into anthologies,
> critical essays and
> classrooms.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com


From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 10:22:26 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:22:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <40558192.20222.9F7A7A@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040315152226.68143.qmail@web13012.mail.yahoo.com>

A friend I went to graduate school with got the
following on her student evaluations at the end of our
first semester as GTAs:

"This teecher has no technix.  She should be fire."

Sounds like Depeche Mode lyrics to me. . .

Jeff Newberry

--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> Well, it uses a really old technique.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:57, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's
> language poetry use of
> > "the" in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional
> grammatical solecism
> > for poetic effect.
> > 
> > --Bob G.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com


From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 15 11:23:13 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:23:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <037401c40a9c$59aaacb0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40559221.19147.E028D1@localhost>

> > Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any technique not in
> > common use in the 50s!
> > Marcus

On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
> What, Marcus,. you don't think David just invented the dendrophor, his
> example of which, "hte," plays a pivotal role in my poem? <

I was referring to the use of "the the" from Wallace Stevens, from 
which "the hte" is merely a jokester's small step. Not to mention 
that the grammar, syntax, and lineation of the whole poem is nothing 
that wasn't in wide commonality in the 50s.

> ... Aside from that, you continue to mistakenly believe (or
> are you intentionally misrepresenting me?) that I am against poetry
> that uses no poetic device not in wide use by the fifties.<

If it is a mistake to believe that you think that poetry that uses no 
poetic device not in wide use by the fifties is not really poetry at 
all, or is not very good, I can only say it's a mistake I've come by 
honestly by reading your execrations of all poetry that doesn't have 
a "new technique" in it.

You've spent all the time I've known you trying to persuade others 
either that it takes a "new technique" to make poetry or that you 
have an "objective" way to evaluate poetry with your "taxonomy". Your 
methods of analysis and persuasion have both been seriously flawed. I 
find it hard to believe, now, that you're trying to say that all this 
time you didn't really mean it that what it took to make good poetry 
was for the poet to use a "new technique". 

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 15 11:35:37 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:35:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <20040315152013.20933.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <037401c40a9c$59aaacb0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40559509.26345.EB80AE@localhost>

On 15 Mar 2004 at 7:20, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> Is an "infraverbal juxtaphor" any kin to a
> Tyrannosaurus Rex?

More like a platypus.

M






From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Mon Mar 15 11:55:23 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:55:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <019301c40a22$416db090$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <8D2EEEBD-76A1-11D8-A208-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Nice, Bob.  I was thinking of the Stevens, too.
And for what it's worth, I think most of us will use any technique we 
can find if it's useful in the poem at hand.

Wendy

On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 07:12 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Poem's Patience is Rewarded
>
> Poem spent months on the dump
> studying the the.
> He knew that poetry
> can't permanently stop growing,
> even in the starkest
> wand's winter of our finest poet,
> but where, he wondered, was even
> the smallest flicker of anywhere further
> in the absolute black
> just beyond the the?
>
> Yet, as he wondered and wondered,
> he wore slowly down
> to the edge of his voice, then at last
> into something long-lost
> that was more primary than voice, and there
> in a black somehow increased from the black
> it had been before,
> he began to make out
> hints of the hte.
>
> --Bob Grumman
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

                Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.
                                                       --Rumi



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Mar 15 12:06:01 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:06:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Koch
Message-ID: <BC7B3E99.75B0%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Permanently 

One day the Nouns were clustered in the street.
An Adjective walked by, with her dark beauty.
The Nouns were struck, moved, changed.
The next day a Verb drove up, and created the Sentence.

Each Sentence says one thing?for example, "Although it was a dark
   rainy day when the Adjective walked by, I shall remember the pure
   and sweet expression on her face until the day I perish from the
   green, effective earth."
Or, "Will you please close the window, Andrew?"
Or, for example, "Thank you, the pink pot of flowers on the window
   sill has changed color recently to a light yellow, due to the heat from
   the boiler factory which exists nearby."

In the springtime the Sentences and the Nouns lay silently on the grass.
A lonely Conjunction here and there would call, "And! But!"
But the Adjective did not emerge.

As the adjective is lost in the sentence,
So I am lost in your eyes, ears, nose, and throat--
You have enchanted me with a single kiss
Which can never be undone
Until the destruction of language.

-- Kenneth Koch.  *Selected Poems, 1950-1982* (Vintage).



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Mar 14 23:10:54 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:10:54 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare!
In-Reply-To: <200403151211.i2FCB3XE025535@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200403151211.i2FCB3XE025535@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc7ad4fae21a@[204.215.201.105]>

Bob - -

Now, you're shaking!

>Exclamation point as visiophor for Shakespeare's spear?


But, I.  I think I know why Aram Saroyan believed to his core that he 
"owned" the poem I conceived, the poem with text and title 
coidentified:

                         Shakespeare!

He believed, and not without some reason, that he had invented the 
form.  Anybody who he would then encounter that offered up their own 
concrete poem for his consideration was literally making an offer to 
the high priest of this minor art.  For Saroyan, then, such a 
magnificent poem as:

			Shakespeare!

possessing both visiographic and aural potencies, is the result of 
seeds that he had cast originally into the wind of literary culture. 
That I, Richard Dillon, am its author would be a mere technicality to 
him.  Now, objectively, this is tantamount to me taking a sonnet to 
Shakespeare himself and for him to say, "Thank you very much," and 
turning it into one of his own. (According to Borges, this could 
happen and probably has.)  The big question that remains, of course, 
is whether the Immortal One would snap up my terrific poem,

                         Shakespeare!

wheel about in his cape, go off and publish it under his name in 
neutral Switzerland, or have it spoken in a lost play by a character 
like myself.  I doubt, very seriously, that the Bard of Avon would 
credit my poem to Aram Saroyan.

But all of these considerations are mooted by the unalterable fact 
that Saroyan published it.  All I, or the more noted playwright and 
poet, can do at this point, 30 years after the fact in 3-d history, 
is file our errata somewhere in the literary marketplace with another 
authority in the field.  That's where you enter, Mr. Grumman.

Thank you for your consideration,




R - - - - Villon




>  Thanks, Bob, for finally opening up your anatomy of critical terms.
>  The author of
>
>  lighght
>
>  - - - Aram Saroyan, who used to orbit through the Grolier Bookshop in
>  the mid Seventies.
>
>  One time we were conferring and I shared, unwisely, my own concrete
>  one word poem, whcih he stole and published.  Great poets, what's the
>  line, don't imitate, they steal!

Now, now, Richard--he probably forgot your word, then later remembered it
but thought it was new, and his.  The trouble with one-word concrete poems
is that a lot of them are discovered independently.  It's also hard to
recognize one as a particular person's, even when the particular person is
you.  In my notes, I once found a great pwoermd, as Geof Huth would call it,
and hoped it might be mine.  I checked with a friend, though, and found out
it was his.  Hmmm, maybe it wasn't!


>  Shakespeare!
>
>  Visiophor>
>
>  Hmmm.
>
>     "!"

Exclamation point as visiophor for Shakespeare's spear?

--Bob G.




-- 


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Mar 15 12:20:03 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 09:20:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Not a Moment Too Soon
In-Reply-To: <200403151701.i2FH12XE027844@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040315091347.00b64ef0@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:01 PM 3/15/2004 -0500, Wendy Battin wrote:

>                 Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.
>                                                        --Rumi
ah, bless you for that,
I was just about to jubm off
the n of the
                     i
                 pl  nk


strsssed bater'd and beWilbur'd,

b (which, upside your hed, is a p since 1950)

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From Mea305 at aol.com  Mon Mar 15 13:44:08 2004
From: Mea305 at aol.com (Mea305 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:44:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with Deborah Richards book, "Last One Out"
Message-ID: <15d.3023933a.2d875378@aol.com>

Hi all.

I am a new subscriber to this list, and while I don't have a poem to submit, 
I would like to call upon those who might have read or have access to a web 
site that might provide me with a synopsis of her book, "Last One Out," which is 
actual a collection of poetic material.

If you can help, please do me a favor and send the information to my e-mail 
address, mea305 at aol.com

Thanks,

Mark Abell, BS, PA
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 13:57:49 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:57:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <20040315152013.20933.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <03e101c40abf$6ba4cbd0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Is an "infraverbal juxtaphor" any kin to a
> Tyrannosaurus Rex?
>
> Jeff Newberry

It's a synonym since, like "infraverbal juxtaphor," it means that which
threatens small birds who have strayed from their nests.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 13:59:18 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:59:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <40558192.20222.9F7A7A@localhost>
Message-ID: <03e501c40abf$a0032b10$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Well, it uses a really old technique.
> 
> Marcus
 
And what would that technique be?
 
> On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:57, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's language poetry use of
> > "the" in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional grammatical solecism
> > for poetic effect.
> > 
> > --Bob G.
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 15 14:02:05 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:02:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <03e101c40abf$6ba4cbd0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEAMIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    > Is an "infraverbal juxtaphor" any kin to a
{    > Tyrannosaurus Rex?
{    >
{    > Jeff Newberry
{    
{    It's a synonym since, like "infraverbal juxtaphor," it means that which
{    threatens small birds who have strayed from their nests.
{    
{    --Bob G.

Ah, the same that the infragerbil juxtaphor does for small rodents!

Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."
	                              --Vicente Huidobro
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 14:47:03 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:47:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <40559221.19147.E028D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <043901c40ac6$4c2b6050$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > > Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any technique not in
> > > common use in the 50s!
> > > Marcus
> 
> On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:46, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > What, Marcus,. you don't think David just invented the dendrophor, his
> > example of which, "hte," plays a pivotal role in my poem? <
> 
> I was referring to the use of "the the" from Wallace Stevens, from 
> which "the hte" is merely a jokester's small step. Not to mention 
> that the grammar, syntax, and lineation of the whole poem is nothing 
> that wasn't in wide commonality in the 50s.
> 
> > ... Aside from that, you continue to mistakenly believe (or
> > are you intentionally misrepresenting me?) that I am against poetry
> > that uses no poetic device not in wide use by the fifties.<
> 
> If it is a mistake to believe that you think that poetry that uses no 
> poetic device not in wide use by the fifties is not really poetry at 
> all, or is not very good, I can only say it's a mistake I've come by 
> honestly by reading your execrations of all poetry that doesn't have 
> a "new technique" in it.
> 
> You've spent all the time I've known you trying to persuade others 
> either that it takes a "new technique" to make poetry or that you 
> have an "objective" way to evaluate poetry with your "taxonomy". Your 
> methods of analysis and persuasion have both been seriously flawed. I 
> find it hard to believe, now, that you're trying to say that all this 
> time you didn't really mean it that what it took to make good poetry 
> was for the poet to use a "new technique". 
> 
> Marcus

Quotations of what I've said to that effect?

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 14:54:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:54:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare!
References: <200403151211.i2FCB3XE025535@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc7ad4fae21a@[204.215.201.105]>
Message-ID: <044d01c40ac7$475b4530$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I'll do what I can for you, Richard--but, amusingly enough, the only other
member of the board of Infraverbal Authority (Saroyan having retired to
write nonfictional memoirs) has sided with Dr. Graham on the subject of the
dendrophor, so I may be out on my ear soon.

--Bob G.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" <elemenope at icubed.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare!


> Bob - -
>
> Now, you're shaking!
>
> >Exclamation point as visiophor for Shakespeare's spear?
>
>
> But, I.  I think I know why Aram Saroyan believed to his core that he
> "owned" the poem I conceived, the poem with text and title
> coidentified:
>
>                          Shakespeare!
>
> He believed, and not without some reason, that he had invented the
> form.  Anybody who he would then encounter that offered up their own
> concrete poem for his consideration was literally making an offer to
> the high priest of this minor art.  For Saroyan, then, such a
> magnificent poem as:
>
> Shakespeare!
>
> possessing both visiographic and aural potencies, is the result of
> seeds that he had cast originally into the wind of literary culture.
> That I, Richard Dillon, am its author would be a mere technicality to
> him.  Now, objectively, this is tantamount to me taking a sonnet to
> Shakespeare himself and for him to say, "Thank you very much," and
> turning it into one of his own. (According to Borges, this could
> happen and probably has.)  The big question that remains, of course,
> is whether the Immortal One would snap up my terrific poem,
>
>                          Shakespeare!
>
> wheel about in his cape, go off and publish it under his name in
> neutral Switzerland, or have it spoken in a lost play by a character
> like myself.  I doubt, very seriously, that the Bard of Avon would
> credit my poem to Aram Saroyan.
>
> But all of these considerations are mooted by the unalterable fact
> that Saroyan published it.  All I, or the more noted playwright and
> poet, can do at this point, 30 years after the fact in 3-d history,
> is file our errata somewhere in the literary marketplace with another
> authority in the field.  That's where you enter, Mr. Grumman.
>
> Thank you for your consideration,
>
>
>
>
> R - - - - Villon
>
>
>
>
> >  Thanks, Bob, for finally opening up your anatomy of critical terms.
> >  The author of
> >
> >  lighght
> >
> >  - - - Aram Saroyan, who used to orbit through the Grolier Bookshop in
> >  the mid Seventies.
> >
> >  One time we were conferring and I shared, unwisely, my own concrete
> >  one word poem, whcih he stole and published.  Great poets, what's the
> >  line, don't imitate, they steal!
>
> Now, now, Richard--he probably forgot your word, then later remembered it
> but thought it was new, and his.  The trouble with one-word concrete poems
> is that a lot of them are discovered independently.  It's also hard to
> recognize one as a particular person's, even when the particular person is
> you.  In my notes, I once found a great pwoermd, as Geof Huth would call
it,
> and hoped it might be mine.  I checked with a friend, though, and found
out
> it was his.  Hmmm, maybe it wasn't!
>
>
> >  Shakespeare!
> >
> >  Visiophor>
> >
> >  Hmmm.
> >
> >     "!"
>
> Exclamation point as visiophor for Shakespeare's spear?
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 15 15:02:18 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:02:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare!
In-Reply-To: <044d01c40ac7$475b4530$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEBAIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

 
Nonfictional memoirs! Now there's an oxymoron.

Hal     "What does a poet need an unlisted
            number for?"
                     --George Costanza
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
 
{    I'll do what I can for you, Richard--but, amusingly enough, the only other
{    member of the board of Infraverbal Authority (Saroyan having retired to
{    write nonfictional memoirs) has sided with Dr. Graham on the subject of the
{    dendrophor, so I may be out on my ear soon.
{    
{    --Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 15:12:49 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:12:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <8D2EEEBD-76A1-11D8-A208-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <046b01c40ac9$e5279fa0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Nice, Bob.

Thanks, Wendy.   I really think its not much more than a paraphrase, meant
seriously, of what David wrote in jest.  But I consider it (now slightly
revised) one of my better poems.

> I was thinking of the Stevens, too.
> And for what it's worth, I think most of us will use any technique we
> can find if it's useful in the poem at hand.

Definitely.  But to each his own.  I tend to use any poem I can find if it's
useful to the technique at hand.  That's how my hte poem came about.

> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
>
>                 Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.
>                                                        --Rumi

There is no sin in bewilderment, but let it be clever
erment.       --Grumman






From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Mon Mar 15 15:13:47 2004
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (grahamd at mail.ripon.edu)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:13:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Yahoo!
Message-ID: <momplhxyoytsfoqpyoa@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 15 15:21:45 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:21:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <043901c40ac6$4c2b6050$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4055CA09.4818.1BA89EE@localhost>

Marcus Bales:
> > You've spent all the time I've known you trying to persuade others
> > either that it takes a "new technique" to make poetry or that you
> > have an "objective" way to evaluate poetry with your "taxonomy".
> > Your methods of analysis and persuasion have both been seriously
> > flawed. I find it hard to believe, now, that you're trying to say
> > that all this time you didn't really mean it that what it took to
> > make good poetry was for the poet to use a "new technique". 

Bob Grumman:
> Quotations of what I've said to that effect?

Do you deny it? 





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 15 15:21:45 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:21:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <03e501c40abf$a0032b10$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4055CA09.8673.1BA88C2@localhost>

> > On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:57, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's language poetry
> > > use of "the" in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional grammatical
> > > solecism for poetic effect.

> > Well, it uses a really old technique.
> > Marcus

On 15 Mar 2004 at 13:59, Bob Grumman wrote:
> And what would that technique be?

It takes Stevens's "the the" from the middle of the century and uses 
regular English grammar and syntax, and regular mid-twentieth century 
lineation.

Certainly nothing "enw" here.

Marcus


 





From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 15 15:35:53 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:35:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Attachment from David Graham
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEBCIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

That message (ostensibly fr. our pal David) had an
attachment that was infected (no joke). The anti-virus
gizmo on my machine caught it. Beware, and don't
open it. David, I'm sure, is not the culprit.

Hal           "Always treat attachments like dangerous toys."
                                         --after Anselm Hollo

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Mar 15 15:39:07 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:39:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <momplhxyoytsfoqpyoa@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <momplhxyoytsfoqpyoa@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20040315153849.D72664@kpaul.spinweb.net>

this is a virus.
someone's infected.
don't open.

-kpaul



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Mar 15 15:41:08 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:41:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <4055BBA0.12B835DE@earthlink.net>
References: <405567C6.9600.3AB421@localhost> <20040315091506.F72664@kpaul.spinweb.net>
 <4055BBA0.12B835DE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040315154027.A72664@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Jim -

Actually, I was referring to Internet trolls purposely using 'teh' for
'the' when trolling. There's some history to 'teh' on the internet...

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, James Cervantes wrote:

> Further, if you cut off the stalk from the "h" and turn it upside down,
> you have a "u" and the possible variants of ute, eut, teu, tue, eut
> etc., if there is an etc.
>
> - Jim
>
> kpaul mallasch wrote:
> >
> > hte == teh
> >
> > (small internet joke ;)
> >
> > -kpaul
> >
> > On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Marcus Bales wrote:
> >
> > > > Poem's Patience is Rewarded
> > > > Bob Grumman
> > > > Poem spent months on the dump
> > > > studying the the.
> > > > He knew that poetry
> > > > can't permanently stop growing,
> > > > even in the starkest
> > > > wand's winter of our finest poet,
> > > > but where, he wondered, was even
> > > > the smallest flicker of anywhere further
> > > > in the absolute black
> > > > just beyond the the?
> > > >
> > > > Yet, as he wondered and wondered,
> > > > he wore slowly down
> > > > to the edge of his voice, then at last
> > > > into something long-lost
> > > > that was more primary than voice, and there
> > > > in a black somehow increased from the black
> > > > it had been before,
> > > > he began to make out
> > > > hints of the hte.
> > >
> > > Jeez -- talk about a poem that doesn't use any technique not in
> > > common use in the 50s!
> > >
> > > Marcus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Mar 15 15:42:49 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:42:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Attachment from David Graham
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEBCIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEBCIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040315154159.C72664@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Further, he
may want to
scan his machine
for further virii
as this email to
new-poetry was
probably gotten
via his address book
and could mean
something more
ominous...

-kpaul

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> That message (ostensibly fr. our pal David) had an
> attachment that was infected (no joke). The anti-virus
> gizmo on my machine caught it. Beware, and don't
> open it. David, I'm sure, is not the culprit.
>
> Hal           "Always treat attachments like dangerous toys."
>                                          --after Anselm Hollo
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Mar 15 15:49:38 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:49:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by Others
In-Reply-To: <200403152011.i2FKB2XE029646@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040315124621.00b85df0@incoming.verizon.net>


>                                    VkPTniLNoQyrZuM (condensed)

>Uy3EB3jHkBW+UXSgdxQxl8OXKYwPhatUGwOJY1BfsAogmbE6lIIasLDBp5E9MBAKmImFW2eW
>a4mvSKYfSYJQHRIqrBA6izmCv22KvSyXYHk6rIKa
>  by  ----------sdvfdnkfquxdywdkumvw--
                         1951

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 15 16:03:12 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:03:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by Others
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040315124621.00b85df0@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEBDIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Ah, the Ventriloquism series, at last!
Quite marvelous.

Hal
                                     VkPTniLNoQyrZuM (condensed)


    Uy3EB3jHkBW+UXSgdxQxl8OXKYwPhatUGwOJY1BfsAogmbE6lIIasLDBp5E9MBAKmImFW2eW
    a4mvSKYfSYJQHRIqrBA6izmCv22KvSyXYHk6rIKa
                 by  ----------sdvfdnkfquxdywdkumvw--
                            1951

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 16:32:19 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:32:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <4055CA09.8673.1BA88C2@localhost>
Message-ID: <04f601c40ad5$00613960$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> > > On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:57, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's language poetry
> > > > use of "the" in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional grammatical
> > > > solecism for poetic effect.
>
> > > Well, it uses a really old technique.
> > > Marcus
>
> On 15 Mar 2004 at 13:59, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > And what would that technique be?
>
> It takes Stevens's "the the" from the middle of the century and uses
> regular English grammar and syntax, and regular mid-twentieth century
> lineation.
>
> Certainly nothing "enw" here.
>
> Marcus

Please reread the post and answer the question.  Note, for instance, that it
has to do with the Stevens poem, not mine.

--Bob G.



>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Mar 15 16:55:59 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:55:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Shakespeare!
In-Reply-To: <200403152011.i2FKB2XE029646@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000601c40ad8$5075d610$6501a8c0@Dell>

Well, when the Joyce Holland Alphabet Anthology was published lo these
many years ago (published by X Press of Iowa City, 1973, to be exact), I
took out a copyright on the letter O. People who have used that letter
subsequently shall be hearing from the lawyers shortly....


Ron






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 17:08:56 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:08:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <4055CA09.4818.1BA89EE@localhost>
Message-ID: <050801c40ada$1dc11d40$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Marcus Bales:
> > > You've spent all the time I've known you trying to persuade others
> > > either that it takes a "new technique" to make poetry or that you
> > > have an "objective" way to evaluate poetry with your "taxonomy".
> > > Your methods of analysis and persuasion have both been seriously
> > > flawed. I find it hard to believe, now, that you're trying to say
> > > that all this time you didn't really mean it that what it took to
> > > make good poetry was for the poet to use a "new technique".
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Quotations of what I've said to that effect?
>
> Do you deny it?

Look, to save anyone bothering to read yours and my posts the annoyance of
yet another boring attempt of mine to say what I mean while you try to trip
me up, I'll state my position once again.

I believe:

(1) a good poem needs to be new in some way.

(2) a good way to make a poem new is the use of a new technique.

(3) there are other ways to make a poem new.

(4) a new technique won't necessarily result in a good poem.

(5) a significant new technique will ALWAYS result in what I call "an
important" poem

(6) there are two kinds of poems of value in my opinion (but not in my
taxonomy): effective poems and important poems--or three, if you want to
count poems that are both.

(7) effective poems are the ones that give a high level of aesthetic
pleasure to their readers; important poems those that show poets new paths
of expression that have potential for considerable poetic usefulness OR are
to be avoided for not being useful (although I have trouble conceiving of
any new path of expression's having no potential usefulness since one that,
for instance, stinks will be useful for occasions where just that is needed
in a poem--to provide a bad to overcome, perhaps).

(8) I constantly score the academy, the university and commercial presses,
literary critics with clout, and their minions not because the poetry they
worship is bad but because they ignore so many kinds of poetry that I
consider ALSO good

(9) I nearly always think out loud at New-Poetry (as now) because I consider
it an informal discussion group, so it shouldn't be surprising if I
sometimes contradict myself, or seem to contradict myself to someone reading
just one post of mine, or to someone looking to trip me up any way he can.

(10) to love poems that do nothing that poems weren't widely doing by 1950
is not a sign of Philistinism, but to despise poems that do things poems
weren't widely doing then, as some at New-Poetry (perhaps thinking out loud)
not infrequently seem to, IS certainly a sign of Philistinism.

That, I believe, covers the matter of my position concerning new techniques
in poetry.  I don't think I've ever said anything that, in context,
indicates I think the only good poems are those that use new techniques, but
I've probably said a few things that sound like that, out of context.  I may
discuss particular quotations of what I've said that indicates I think as
you claim, Marcus.  I may clarify some of my ten points above.  I won't let
you confuse me into explaining my explanations of my explanations of my
explanations ad infinitum while you carry out your standard methods of
discussion-sabotage.  (Yes, that's a personal insult directed at you.  Revel
in the grand superiority to me that it no doubt arouses in you.)

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 17:12:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:12:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by Others
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040315124621.00b85df0@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <052401c40ada$a9279b70$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



                                       VkPTniLNoQyrZuM (condensed)


    Uy3EB3jHkBW+UXSgdxQxl8OXKYwPhatUGwOJY1BfsAogmbE6lIIasLDBp5E9MBAKmImFW2eW
    a4mvSKYfSYJQHRIqrBA6izmCv22KvSyXYHk6rIKa
                 by  ----------sdvfdnkfquxdywdkumvw--
                            1951


    This kind of thing was done long before 1951, Barry.  That's why I try my best always to speak of techniques not in wide use by the fifties.  
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From tedmacker at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 17:45:08 2004
From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Teddy Macker)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2030 - 12 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200403152011.i2FKB2XE029650@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20040315224509.68586.qmail@web11503.mail.yahoo.com>

One thing I find interesting is how rarely emotiveness
is talked about on this list-serve. Form, prosody,
technique; meaning vs. lack-of-meaning; opacity vs.
accessibility (i.e. Jorie Graham vs. Billy Collins)--
these things are often discussed-- and discussed
engagingly-- but rarely have I heard someone say, 'You
wanna know what? This poem really breaks my heart. It
just bowls me over. And I'm gonna figure out why it
breaks my heart and how it breaks my heart.' 

One of my favorite statements about art is Franz
Kafka's (a statement many of you are probably familiar
with): 'Literature is the ice-axe to smash the frozen
sea within us.' What a notion!-- Art is here to move
us, to thaw us into feeling! But, again, this is
rarely talked about, the moving-ness of art, the
moving-ness of poetry. Unlike Francois Truffaut, Emily
Dickinson, Dorothea Lange, Anton Chekov, Raymond
Carver, James Wright, James Baldwin, James Agee,
Elizabeth Bishop, Chopin, Chaplin, Bach-- few of us
seem to be actively trying to figure out to how
effectively move our audience. 

Presently we seem to be talking about the importance
of newness of technique, a worthy concern. But it, of
course, goes without saying that new leading-edge
technique can make for aggressively bad poetry. And
it, of course, goes without saying that there are many
artists with a limited sense of technique who can kick
you right in the teeth with the potency of their work.
Some flamenco singers and blues singers (some, not
all) only had a handful of songs at their disposal and
an unbudgeably narrow approach to their instrument,
but they make many "virtuosos" sound like the folk
rock service at your neighborhood church. And many of
these blues and flamenco singers never saw a reason to
change or develop as artists-- they simply (and richly
and wonderfully) sang these songs in the same manner
over the course of their entire lives; and despite
never seeing a need to develop, they still are very
important artists. 

So I'm going to ask it pointblank: what does it take
to move a reader? Is it a matter of voice? A matter of
form? A matter of language choice? A matter of
accessibility? A matter of all these things put
together? Or is it something ineffable,
unpinpointable, something akin to duende or the blues?


I, for one, think much of it has to do with voice, the
personality conjured up on the page. And that's why
Billy Collins, despite his formal conservatism and
periodic lapses into maudlin cuteness, will always, to
me, be a more attractive poet than Jorie Graham, a
formally innovative one-- because Billy's voice often
is a winning voice, a perceptibly human one, a voice
trying, however misguidedly, to smash the frozen sea
of the heart, while Jorie's voice usually can't be
heard through the storm of her linguistic
clevernesses. 

W.W.F.D.?-- What would Franz do? What would Franz say
after reading a Jorie Graham poem? And what would he
say after reading a Billy Collins poem? (Billy
Collins, incidentally, does have something in common
with chatty, whimsical Johann Peter Hebel, one of
Kafka's favorites.)(And I mention Billy's poems not
because I am a card-carrying badge-wearing defender of
safe stodgy palatable poetry, but because the few
poems I've read of his genuinely hook me, and because
he's so often mentioned on this list-serve. And I
mention Jorie Graham not because I'm a card-carrying
badge-wearing opposer of the avant-garde, but because
her poems bore the life out of me, and because she's
so often mentioned on this list-serve.)    

The desire to effect Pound's 'make it new' is a great
one (and one that deeply haunts me as an aspiring
writer), but one that gets tiresome so quickly. What
an American notion!-- the need to make the best, the
newest, the fastest, to own the 2005 Audi in 2004.
When does one stop to admit that a desire for the new
is nothing more than a stab at artistic immortality,
whereas the desire to move is something perhaps more
akin to why one started writing in the first place? 

Thanks for hearing my ramble,

Teddy Macker

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com


From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 15 18:38:45 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:38:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
In-Reply-To: <04f601c40ad5$00613960$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4055F835.30266.26EE386@localhost>

> > > > On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:57, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > > So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's language
> > > > > poetry use of "the" in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional
> > > > > grammatical solecism for poetic effect.
> >
> > > > Well, it uses a really old technique.
> > > > Marcus
> >
> > On 15 Mar 2004 at 13:59, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > And what would that technique be?
> >
> > It takes Stevens's "the the" from the middle of the century and uses
> > regular English grammar and syntax, and regular mid-twentieth
> > century lineation.
> > Certainly nothing "enw" here.
> > Marcus

On 15 Mar 2004 at 16:32, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Please reread the post and answer the question.  Note, for instance,
> that it has to do with the Stevens poem, not mine.

You're right, Bob. 

The Stevens poem looks pretty standard American mid-century poetry to 
me from this perspective. It looks a lot like the sort of poem that 
if you didn't know it was Wallace Stevens you'd say was a standard 
Iowa Workshop Poem, with its specificity of detail and its movement 
toward a not too astonishing comment or question in a general mode.

 What's new about it in your estimation?






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 15 19:32:16 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:32:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The
References: <4055F835.30266.26EE386@localhost>
Message-ID: <056401c40aee$23fc7ba0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > > > > On 15 Mar 2004 at 9:57, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > > > So, what do you guys think of Wallace Stevens's language
> > > > > > poetry use of "the" in "the Man on the Dump?"  An intentional
> > > > > > grammatical solecism for poetic effect.
> > >
> > > > > Well, it uses a really old technique.
> > > > > Marcus
> > >
> > > On 15 Mar 2004 at 13:59, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > And what would that technique be?
> > >
> > > It takes Stevens's "the the" from the middle of the century and uses
> > > regular English grammar and syntax, and regular mid-twentieth
> > > century lineation.
> > > Certainly nothing "enw" here.
> > > Marcus
>
> On 15 Mar 2004 at 16:32, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > Please reread the post and answer the question.  Note, for instance,
> > that it has to do with the Stevens poem, not mine.
>
> You're right, Bob.
>
> The Stevens poem looks pretty standard American mid-century poetry to
> me from this perspective. It looks a lot like the sort of poem that
> if you didn't know it was Wallace Stevens you'd say was a standard
> Iowa Workshop Poem, with its specificity of detail and its movement
> toward a not too astonishing comment or question in a general mode.
>
>  What's new about it in your estimation?

I was asking only about Stevens's use of "The the."  It was new for the
time, and still seems pretty new to me--i.e., not in wide use in poetry--as
an intentional grammatical solecism used for large-scale metaphorical
effect.  While many poets have used parts of speech as other "incorrect"
parts of speech (I think of a favorite of mine from Dylan Thomas in which he
uses "ramshackle" as a participle--"ramshackling ocean," I think), I know of
none who have used it the way Stevens did in "The Man on the Dump."  For
Stevens, this poem's final "the" is not just a noun, but a noun chopped off
before it can denote, to produce an implicit metaphor profoundly right for
the poem it is in.  Futhermore, it is a comically, jarringly, dramatically
"wrong" but on reflection exactly right repetition of a word.  "The the."
blew me away when I first saw it exactly as "lighght" did.  I would love to
hear of any other sprungrammar juxtaphors, as I tentatively classify it,
used by any poet before or less than twenty years after Stevens.

(Thomas's "ramshackling" is not metaphorical, so far as I can see.  Its high
value is in adding surprise and color to his dition; also in condensing what
he says["the ocean, maker of ramshackle houses" is reduced to three words],
which must increase his diction's richness and power.)

As for what was new about Stevens's poem as a whole, that's extremely hard
to say for anyone not throughly familiar with all the poetry of his time and
before it.  It wasn't use of technique, except for "The the."  Something
about attitude; diction, certainly; the intense investigatory concern with
art and poetry in themselves and as excuses for meditations on life/death,
change, meaning. . . .in other words, subject matter.  I'm sure others
steeped in Stevens can add to this.

--Bob G.





From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Mar 15 20:06:32 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:06:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Attachment from David Graham
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEBCIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BC7BAF38.75E3%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 3/15/04 2:35 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> That message (ostensibly fr. our pal David) had an
> attachment that was infected (no joke). The anti-virus
> gizmo on my machine caught it. Beware, and don't
> open it. David, I'm sure, is not the culprit.
> 
> Hal           "Always treat attachments like dangerous toys."
> --after Anselm Hollo
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


No, I certainly didn't send any attachment to the list.  It arrived in my
in-box, too, though.  I didn't open it.

I've consulted with my virus catcher and it says my disk is free of viruses,
in any case.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Mar 15 20:12:51 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:12:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Attachment from David Graham
In-Reply-To: <BC7BAF38.75E3%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BC7BAF38.75E3%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20040315201118.Q7038@kpaul.spinweb.net>

David -

You might try running either adaware or spy bot seek and destroy (both
free) if you get a chance. It will be an eye opener.

What it sounds like happened is someone who had this email addy in their
address book was hit and now it's propagating (SP) - they usually 'spoof'
the from address...

-kpaul

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, David Graham wrote:

> on 3/15/04 2:35 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote:
>
> >
> > That message (ostensibly fr. our pal David) had an
> > attachment that was infected (no joke). The anti-virus
> > gizmo on my machine caught it. Beware, and don't
> > open it. David, I'm sure, is not the culprit.
> >
> > Hal           "Always treat attachments like dangerous toys."
> > --after Anselm Hollo
> >
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ===============
> > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> No, I certainly didn't send any attachment to the list.  It arrived in my
> in-box, too, though.  I didn't open it.
>
> I've consulted with my virus catcher and it says my disk is free of viruses,
> in any case.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Mar 15 20:27:57 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:27:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Macker's Back (hear, hear) in Town!
In-Reply-To: <200403152245.i2FMjJXE031085@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040315171505.04130e00@incoming.verizon.net>

At 05:45 PM 3/15/2004 -0500, Teddy Macker  & Franz Kafka wrote:
to smash the frozen sea
>of the heart

Whoa, it's not about oddity, cleverness? it's gotta have
duende, substantial feeling, human-to-human emotion?
-- NOW you tell us, Macker! Dang!

(8000 cheers for Teddy, he's da man)

b.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar 16 06:38:54 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 06:38:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Requiring Figures of Speech
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEBDIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <007401c40b4b$4466b150$2fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

While thinking about my own long division poems and how they were difficult but valuable because the form, when carried out in full, rquires three metaphors the remainder plus what I call the "subdividend product" must equal the dividend, for instance), I wondered suddenly if any other poetic form, besides equation poems, requires some figure of speech.  Anybody know of one?

--Bob G.

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 16 07:04:55 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:04:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Requiring Figures of Speech
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEBDIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <007401c40b4b$4466b150$2fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4056ED67.2E27DE03@earthlink.net>

The ghazal.

- Jim

> Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> While thinking about my own long division poems and how they were
> difficult but valuable because the form, when carried out in
> full, rquires three metaphors the remainder plus what I call the
> "subdividend product" must equal the dividend, for instance), I
> wondered suddenly if any other poetic form, besides equation poems,
> requires some figure of speech.  Anybody know of one?
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
>


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Mar 16 10:47:34 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:47:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vallejo
Message-ID: <BC7C7DB6.760C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Cesar Vallejo's 112th birthday today. . . .



?gape 

Today no one has come to inquire,
nor have they wanted anything from me this afternoon.

I have not seen a single cemetery flower
in so happy a procession of lights.
Forgive me, Lord! I have died so little!

This afternoon everyone, everyone goes by
without asking or begging me anything.

And I do not know what it is they forget, and it is
heavy in my hands like something stolen.

I have come to the door,
and I want to shout at everyone:
?-If you miss something, here it is!

Because in all the afternoons of this life,
I do not know how many doors are slammed on a face,
and my soul takes something that belongs to another.

Today nobody has come;
and today I have died so little in the afternoon!

  -C?sar Vallejo.  Trans. John Knoepfle. *Neruda & Vallejo:  Selected
Poems*.  Ed. Robert Bly.  Beacon Press, 1971.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 16 12:17:09 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:17:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  John Ashbery, "Leaving the Atocha Station"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEECIIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Leaving the Atocha Station

The arctic honey blabbed over the report causing darkness
And pulling us out of there experiencing it
he meanwhile . . . And the fried bats they sell there
dropping from sticks, so that the menace of your prayer folds . . .
Other people . . .             flash
the garden are you boning
and defunct covering . . .    Blind dog expressed royalties . . .
comfort of your perfect tar grams nuclear world bank tulip
Favorable to          near the night pin
loading formaldehyde.   the table torn from you
Suddenly      and we are close
Mouthing the root           when you think
generator      homes enjoy leered

The worn stool blazing    pigeons from the roof
                    driving tractor to squash
Leaving the Atocha Station   steel
infected bumps the screws
      everywhere  wells
abolished top ill-lit
scarecrow falls   Time, progress and good sense
strike of shopkeepers dark blood
no forest you can name drunk scrolls
the completely new Italian hair . . .
Baby . . .   ice falling off the port
The centennial      Before we can

                         old        eat
members with their chins
                   so high up           rats
       relaxing the cruel discussion
    suds                         the painted corners
white                    most aerial
          garment crow
                                 and when the region took us back
the person left us like birds
   it was fuzz on the passing light
over disgusted heads, far into amnesiac
permanent house depot       amounts he can
              decrepit mayor . . .       exalting flea

for that we turn around
experiencing it is not to go into
the epileptic prank forcing bar
to borrow out onto tide-exposed fells
over her morsel, she chasing you
and the revenge he'd get
establishing the vultural over
rural area cough protection
murdering quintet. Air pollution terminal
the clear fart genital enthusiastic toe prick album serious evening flames
the lake over your hold      personality
                    lightened . . .       roar
You are freed
                    including barrels
head of the swan      forestry
the night and stars fork
That is, he said
        and rushing under the hoops of
equations probable
              absolute mush     the right
entity        chain store     sewer opened their books
              The flood dragged you
              I coughed to the window
last month: juice, earlier
like the slacks                           to be declining
       the peaches     more
    fist
sprung expecting the cattle
false loam                    imports
                     next time around

--John Ashbery

fr. *The Tennis Court Oath*
[Middletown, Conn.: Wesleyan Univ. Press, 1962]



Hal     

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 16 12:57:23 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:57:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  John Ashbery, "Leaving the
	 Atocha Station"
Message-ID: <200403161741.i2GHfFBS018204@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

i just KNEW someone would do this

----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  John Ashbery, "Leaving the Atocha
Station"
>Date: Tue, Mar 16, 2004, 9:17 AM
>

>
> Leaving the Atocha Station
>
> The arctic honey blabbed over the report causing darkness
> And pulling us out of there experiencing it
> he meanwhile . . . And the fried bats they sell there
> dropping from sticks, so that the menace of your prayer folds . . .
> Other people . . .             flash
> the garden are you boning
> and defunct covering . . .    Blind dog expressed royalties . . .
> comfort of your perfect tar grams nuclear world bank tulip
> Favorable to          near the night pin
> loading formaldehyde.   the table torn from you
> Suddenly      and we are close
> Mouthing the root           when you think
> generator      homes enjoy leered
>
> The worn stool blazing    pigeons from the roof
>                     driving tractor to squash
> Leaving the Atocha Station   steel
> infected bumps the screws
>       everywhere  wells
> abolished top ill-lit
> scarecrow falls   Time, progress and good sense
> strike of shopkeepers dark blood
> no forest you can name drunk scrolls
> the completely new Italian hair . . .
> Baby . . .   ice falling off the port
> The centennial      Before we can
>
>                          old        eat
> members with their chins
>                    so high up           rats
>        relaxing the cruel discussion
>     suds                         the painted corners
> white                    most aerial
>           garment crow
>                                  and when the region took us back
> the person left us like birds
>    it was fuzz on the passing light
> over disgusted heads, far into amnesiac
> permanent house depot       amounts he can
>               decrepit mayor . . .       exalting flea
>
> for that we turn around
> experiencing it is not to go into
> the epileptic prank forcing bar
> to borrow out onto tide-exposed fells
> over her morsel, she chasing you
> and the revenge he'd get
> establishing the vultural over
> rural area cough protection
> murdering quintet. Air pollution terminal
> the clear fart genital enthusiastic toe prick album serious evening flames
> the lake over your hold      personality
>                     lightened . . .       roar
> You are freed
>                     including barrels
> head of the swan      forestry
> the night and stars fork
> That is, he said
>         and rushing under the hoops of
> equations probable
>               absolute mush     the right
> entity        chain store     sewer opened their books
>               The flood dragged you
>               I coughed to the window
> last month: juice, earlier
> like the slacks                           to be declining
>        the peaches     more
>     fist
> sprung expecting the cattle
> false loam                    imports
>                      next time around
>
> --John Ashbery
>
> fr. *The Tennis Court Oath*
> [Middletown, Conn.: Wesleyan Univ. Press, 1962]
>
>
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 16 12:43:16 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:43:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yaddo 1950: Corman, Williams, and others
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECKIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

If anyone's interested in receiving a jpg file containing a photo
taken at Yaddo in 1950, please let me know. Backchannel
only, por favor, using subject line above. Photo will come as 
an attachment.

Included in the group photo are Cid Corman, Theodore 
Roethke, Harvey Shapiro, Richard Eberhart, Jessamyn West,
Ben Weber, W. C. Williams and Flossie Williams, among others.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Mar 16 14:30:27 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:30:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lux's Cradle
Message-ID: <BC7CB1F3.762C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I've been reading in Thomas Lux's new collection, *The Cradle Place*.  I
read in an interview that Lux calls himself a "recovering surrealist" these
days, and has repudiated his first couple books accordingly.   Whatever he
is, he's evolved a fairly distinctive voice in the past few collections, I'd
say.  If you enjoyed *Street of Clocks* or *Split Horizon* you'll definitely
find a lot in the new book to savor.

Here's a somewhat unusual one, in that he's playing a metrical game.

The spelling of "amphibrach" is his own; don't know if this is a legit
variant or just a mistake.  But surely one of you assembled experts knows.



Amphribrach Dance

Remember, first falling, and falling,
from lofty, from distant, from dizzy
cliff's slim ledge, yes falling, through clear, not
blue-burned air, yet falling, still falling
to soft sand, to hard sea, to longing
for longing, and much less: the broken,
the thunky, the dancing we each did,
the heels down, then toes up, then heels down,
the rocking, the forward and, yes, back--
its measure so awkward, the sad dance
we each did, remember, remember?

--Thomas Lux.  *The Cradle Place*.  Houghton Mifflin, 2004.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Mar 16 16:24:29 2004
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (grahamd at mail.ripon.edu)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:24:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Thanks :)
Message-ID: <tdtisdipeidhnkawvwk@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

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From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Mar 16 16:24:31 2004
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (grahamd at mail.ripon.edu)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:24:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Encrypted document
Message-ID: <lekrondyjtoepkcbllu@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Mar 16 17:18:14 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:18:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Probable virus
Message-ID: <BC7CD946.7641%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Two more suspicious NewPo messages with attachments have just appeared in my
in-box with my name as sender.  I did not send them.

Delete!



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar 16 17:46:49 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:46:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems Requiring Figures of Speech
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEBDIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <007401c40b4b$4466b150$2fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4056ED67.2E27DE03@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a701c40ba8$93ebec60$52efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> The ghazal.
>
> - Jim

> > While thinking about my own long division poems and how they were
> > difficult but valuable

            For those working in the form

> > because the form, when carried out in
> > full, rquires three metaphors the remainder plus what I call the
> > "subdividend product" must equal the dividend, for instance),

so the person working in the form gets lots of practice making metaphors,
which is a good thing

I
> > wondered suddenly if any other poetic form, besides equation poems,
> > requires some figure of speech.  Anybody know of one?
> >
> > --Bob G.

I'm not too familiar with the ghazal, Jim, but I looked it up in two
references.  Neither said it required figures of speech.  It does look like
it is by tradition symbol-laden.
Can you amplify?

--Bob G





From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Mar 16 17:59:00 2004
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:59:00 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Probable virus
References: <BC7CD946.7641%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01a201c40baa$4796af60$e2b38051@MyPC>

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 10:18 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Probable virus

> Two more suspicious NewPo messages with attachments have just appeared in
my
> in-box with my name as sender.  I did not send them.
>
> Delete!

Ditto -- I had two also, an hour or so ago, addressed to the new-poetry list
and carrying W32.Beagle.

My anti-virus software caught them, but there's the obvious moral -- keep
your virus definitions up-to-date.

(Actually, they didn't even get that far -- the nice people at Yahoo, I
suppose linked to my mailer, caught them.

The problem with this is that the Yahoo thing scrubs them so clean, it seems
to eliminate most of the electronic trail, if you happen to want to try to
trace them back.)

Robin Hamilton

As they'd already been scrubbed, I don't know whom they were supposed to be
from, but here's what Properties said, for what it's worth:

From:
=?iso-8859-1?q?"Yahoo!=20Mail=20Virus=20Protection=20<mail-antivirus at yaho?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?o-inc.com>"?=
To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:24:29 -0600
Subject:
=?iso-8859-1?q?"Alert:=20Virus=20Detected=20but=20not=20Cleaned=20-=20Att?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?achment=20Removed"?= [[New-Poetry] Re: Thanks :)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="0-1106703091-1079472687-84632"

-- so be wary of *anything* with the subject line: "Re: Thanks :)" .





From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Mar 17 07:58:30 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:58:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
In-Reply-To: <8c.59ad434.2d838e2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40580526.4200.20A59A@localhost>

On 12 Mar 2004 at 17:05, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> ... I think that
> poets, even many experimental ones, are captivated by what can be done
> within the bounds of language as language. A great part of the appeal
> of the art of poetry will always be the simplicity of the material
> from which its made: words as they are commonly understood to mean and
> commonly applied and manipulated in order to communicate....<

Just so. Grumman would bring a gun to a chess tournament and call it 
"infraboardal".

Marcus




From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Wed Mar 17 08:11:39 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:11:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Probable virus
Message-ID: <20040317131139.07C22ACD1@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 17 10:50:59 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:50:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <40580526.4200.20A59A@localhost>
Message-ID: <007001c40c37$a922eef0$32efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 12 Mar 2004 at 17:05, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > ... I think that
> > poets, even many experimental ones, are captivated by what can be done
> > within the bounds of language as language. A great part of the appeal
> > of the art of poetry will always be the simplicity of the material
> > from which its made: words as they are commonly understood to mean and
> > commonly applied and manipulated in order to communicate....<
>
> Just so. Grumman would bring a gun to a chess tournament and call it
> "infraboardal".
>
> Marcus

And Bales would shoot his opponent in chess if he painted the the little
knowb on the top of his queen light blue.

--Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Mar 17 11:13:52 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:13:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
In-Reply-To: <007001c40c37$a922eef0$32efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <405832F0.22415.219E5C@localhost>

> > On 12 Mar 2004 at 17:05, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > > ... I think that
> > > poets, even many experimental ones, are captivated by what can be
> > > done within the bounds of language as language. A great part of
> > > the appeal of the art of poetry will always be the simplicity of
> > > the material from which its made: words as they are commonly
> > > understood to mean and commonly applied and manipulated in order
> > > to communicate....<
> >
> > Just so. Grumman would bring a gun to a chess tournament and call it
> > "infraboardal".
> > Marcus

On 17 Mar 2004 at 10:50, Bob Grumman wrote:
> And Bales would shoot his opponent in chess if he painted the the
> little knowb on the top of his queen light blue.

That's lame, Bob, even for you.

Marcus





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 17 12:32:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:32:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
References: <405832F0.22415.219E5C@localhost>
Message-ID: <005501c40c45$e01efb20$4befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > > On 12 Mar 2004 at 17:05, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > > > ... I think that
> > > > poets, even many experimental ones, are captivated by what can be
> > > > done within the bounds of language as language. A great part of
> > > > the appeal of the art of poetry will always be the simplicity of
> > > > the material from which its made: words as they are commonly
> > > > understood to mean and commonly applied and manipulated in order
> > > > to communicate....<
> > >
> > > Just so. Grumman would bring a gun to a chess tournament and call it
> > > "infraboardal".
> > > Marcus
>
> On 17 Mar 2004 at 10:50, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > And Bales would shoot his opponent in chess if he painted the the
> > little knowb on the top of his queen light blue.
>
> That's lame, Bob, even for you.
>
> Marcus

I really messed that up.  The infraverbalisms were unintended.  The rest was
certainly lame, but also much more accurately descriptive of you than what
it was a reply to was descriptive of me.

Shoot back now, if you want.  I have no more pellets.

--Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Mar 17 12:50:59 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:50:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Techniques
In-Reply-To: <005501c40c45$e01efb20$4befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <405849B3.16081.55D31F@localhost>

On 17 Mar 2004 at 12:32, Bob Grumman wrote:

> > > > On 12 Mar 2004 at 17:05, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > > > > ... I think that
> > > > > poets, even many experimental ones, are captivated by what can
> > > > > be done within the bounds of language as language. A great
> > > > > part of the appeal of the art of poetry will always be the
> > > > > simplicity of the material from which its made: words as they
> > > > > are commonly understood to mean and commonly applied and
> > > > > manipulated in order to communicate....<
> > > >
> > > > Just so. Grumman would bring a gun to a chess tournament and
> > > > call it "infraboardal". Marcus
> >
> > On 17 Mar 2004 at 10:50, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > And Bales would shoot his opponent in chess if he painted the the
> > > little knowb on the top of his queen light blue.
> >
> > That's lame, Bob, even for you.
> > Marcus
 
> I really messed that up.  The infraverbalisms were unintended.  The
> rest was certainly lame, but also much more accurately descriptive of
> you than what it was a reply to was descriptive of me.
> --Bob G.

Sorry, Bob -- what was so lame about your response was not its 
purported accuracy, but its lame inaccuracy in reply to such a good 
quip on my part. It seemed, and still seems to me, that it would be 
just like you to so misunderstand chess that you'd think that 
bringing a gun to the tournament would be nothing but a "new 
technique" in chess -- and you'd spend the next 30 years writing 
about the narrow-mindedness of the chess community that refused to 
recognize the brilliance of your innovation.

Marcus






From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Wed Mar 17 17:20:39 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (gmguddi)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:20:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040317161926.012cb990@mail.ilstu.edu>

In this issue of Conchology blog, lots of social and narcissistic stuff:

This issue of Conchology blog is a three part issue:

Part One: Photographs of hooligans and leftists
Part Two:  Rhode Island Notebook 3.7.03-3.16.03
Part Third: SOMEONE CALL AN AMBULANCE: A DRAMATIC INTERVIEW (reposted by 
request)

--

Photograph of Dale Smith with Large Woman

Photographs of Kent Johnson Yelling

Photograph of Devin Johnston Pointing at a Monster

Photograph of David Hess's Beer on my Shoe

Photograph of Jonathan Mayhew Egressing a Two Story Slide in St. Louis

Photograph of Me Laughing at some Above Mentioned Drunkards

Photograph of Aaron Belz Losing a Friend

Photograph of Me at the KGB Bar

Photograph of Me outside the KGB Bar

Photographs of the Audience in the KGB Bar Taken from the Podium

Photographs of the Audience at the New School University Taken from the 
Podium, man on right is David Lehman

Report of My Recent Reading at Myopic Books in Chicago

Report and Commentary Upon Snide Review of My Book Taken from Amazon.com

and...

RHODE ISLAND NOTEBOOK, 3.7.03-3.16.03

and...

SOMEONE CALL AN AMBULANCE: A DRAMATIC INTERVIEW

  http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ 



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 17 20:29:19 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:29:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Jackson Mac Low, "The Unpopular View"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFLIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The Unpopular View

A trade-off. I walked in shoes.
The wiliness of curved preludes precluded
wilderness and unsound galleries.

Sympathetic tenacity unnerved.
A glass was overturned and unhung,
sandy and uncontiguous, dispatched.

Relatively inflammatory denial rankled
a fly-by-night conquistador's assistant.
I waited for the next instructions, unsung.

Tongue-in-cheek dilatoriness failed. I fumbled
the cape lost in an undermined cloud
grassy burial precincts underhung.

Landless flailers resolved unctuous trails
I zebra'd across, lost to reasonable
tunings. Fat as increments, dials paused.

		30 August 1983
		New York


--Jackson Mac Low

fr. *Bloomsday*
[Barrytown, NewYork: Station Hill Press, 1984]


Hal           

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 08:12:29 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:12:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Snapshot of Wednesday in a St. Patrick's Day Parade"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEGFIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Snapshot of Wednesday in a St. Patrick's Day Parade


                                     w
                                   we
                                 wed
                               wedn
                             wedne
                           wednes
                         wednesd
                       wednesda
                     wednesday
                     ednesday
                     dnesday
                     nesday
                     esday
                     sday
                    day
                    ay
                    y



Hal                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 09:29:22 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:29:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Snapshot of Wednesday in a St. Patrick's Day Parade"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEGFIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4059B242.9CE7EC86@earthlink.net>

is-ay oh-kay

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Snapshot of Wednesday in a St. Patrick's Day Parade
> 
>                                      w
>                                    we
>                                  wed
>                                wedn
>                              wedne
>                            wednes
>                          wednesd
>                        wednesda
>                      wednesday
>                      ednesday
>                      dnesday
>                      nesday
>                      esday
>                      sday
>                     day
>                     ay
>                     y
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> The Sonnet Project:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Mar 18 10:27:32 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:27:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] At one with his words
Message-ID: <BC7F1C04.76EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A notice about the death of Cid Corman remarked that "Now he?s at one with
his words. . . ."  

My first thought was that this was a beautifully striking formulation.  My
second thought was to wonder: is this a quote or a classical tag or
something?  Anyone know?



God--how

can I
ever

thank you

enough 
for this 

nothing?

--Cid Corman.  *APR* (July/Aug 2000).


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From MillB at aol.com  Thu Mar 18 15:35:36 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:35:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
Message-ID: <11a.2fbba0d3.2d8b6218@aol.com>

Here's a blurb/shout out for a new online magazine: SunSpinner, put together 
by a few alumni members of USC.

http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/

Plus, there's an interview with me--

Cheers,

Mill
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 16:18:46 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:18:46 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
References: <11a.2fbba0d3.2d8b6218@aol.com>
Message-ID: <405A1236.66E9B5F@earthlink.net>

> Here's a blurb/shout out for a new online magazine: SunSpinner, put together by a few alumni members of USC.
>  
> http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/
>  
> Plus, there's an interview with me--
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Mill
>  

Bad address.   http://www.sunspinner.org/  gets you there but the
internal link is also wrong.  Should be 
http://www.sunspinner.org/issue_spring04/  I think.

- Jim


From MillB at aol.com  Thu Mar 18 16:29:07 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:29:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
Message-ID: <9d.45e106c2.2d8b6ea3@aol.com>

http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/

Sorry.  How's this?
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 16:22:58 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:22:58 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
References: <11a.2fbba0d3.2d8b6218@aol.com> <405A1236.66E9B5F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <405A1332.4D4B0FEF@earthlink.net>


James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> > Here's a blurb/shout out for a new online magazine: SunSpinner, put together by a few alumni members of USC.
> >
> > http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/
> >
> > Plus, there's an interview with me--
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Mill
> >
> 
> Bad address.   http://www.sunspinner.org/  gets you there but the
> internal link is also wrong.  Should be
> http://www.sunspinner.org/issue_spring04/  I think.
> 
> - Jim

Sorry, that doesn't work either!

- Jim


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 16:16:45 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:16:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
In-Reply-To: <405A1236.66E9B5F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHHIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I don't know what's happening at your house, Jim, but
here her address works fine and yours doesn't. I just
wish people wouldn't use light-blue or light-anything
typefonts against white.

Hal
 
{    > Here's a blurb/shout out for a new online magazine: SunSpinner, put together by a few alumni members of USC.
{    >  
{    > http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/
{    >  
{    > Plus, there's an interview with me--
{    >  
{    > Cheers,
{    >  
{    > Mill
{    >  
{    
{    Bad address.   http://www.sunspinner.org/  gets you there but the
{    internal link is also wrong.  Should be 
{    http://www.sunspinner.org/issue_spring04/  I think.
{    
{    - Jim
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 16:19:15 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:19:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
In-Reply-To: <9d.45e106c2.2d8b6ea3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHIIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Now, this one seems to work too. Hmm.

Hal
  http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/

  Sorry.  How's this?
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 16:44:48 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:44:48 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHHIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <405A184F.368AFA96@earthlink.net>

Nothing wrong at my house.  I get a 404 with all of those, but I DO get
to the index page with http://www.sunspinner.org/

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> I don't know what's happening at your house, Jim, but
> here her address works fine and yours doesn't. I just
> wish people wouldn't use light-blue or light-anything
> typefonts against white.
> 
> Hal
> 
> {    > Here's a blurb/shout out for a new online magazine: SunSpinner, put together by a few alumni members of USC.
> {    >
> {    > http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/
> {    >
> {    > Plus, there's an interview with me--
> {    >
> {    > Cheers,
> {    >
> {    > Mill
> {    >
> {
> {    Bad address.   http://www.sunspinner.org/  gets you there but the
> {    internal link is also wrong.  Should be
> {    http://www.sunspinner.org/issue_spring04/  I think.
> {
> {    - Jim
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Mar 18 20:05:05 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:05:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
References: <9d.45e106c2.2d8b6ea3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005301c40d4e$37331000$9501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Mill - neat interview.

Tad
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MillB at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 4:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine


  http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/

  Sorry.  How's this?
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Mar 19 07:57:25 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:57:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHHIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <405A1236.66E9B5F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <405AA7E5.16479.29A2F5@localhost>

On 18 Mar 2004 at 16:16, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> ... I just
> wish people wouldn't use light-blue or light-anything
> typefonts against white.

It's poetry, Hal.

Marcus






From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Mar 19 09:52:37 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:52:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
References: <405A1236.66E9B5F@earthlink.net> <405AA7E5.16479.29A2F5@localhost>
Message-ID: <004101c40dc1$d2431f40$9501a8c0@MoleHQ>

What I hate are those online zines that center everything.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 7:57 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine


> On 18 Mar 2004 at 16:16, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> > ... I just
> > wish people wouldn't use light-blue or light-anything
> > typefonts against white.
> 
> It's poetry, Hal.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Mar 19 11:19:14 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:19:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
References: <405A1236.66E9B5F@earthlink.net> <405AA7E5.16479.29A2F5@localhost> <004101c40dc1$d2431f40$9501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <026e01c40dcd$ebfc8c30$1c0a9942@Helen>

Black against red or vv - don't these people ever try to read their own
sites?  And why do they use 8 point type.

Thanks you for the opportunity to whine about document
design on line

rhyme unintentional
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Old Mole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine


> What I hate are those online zines that center everything.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 7:57 AM
> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
>
>
> > On 18 Mar 2004 at 16:16, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> > > ... I just
> > > wish people wouldn't use light-blue or light-anything
> > > typefonts against white.
> >
> > It's poetry, Hal.
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Mar 19 11:32:03 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:32:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Online Magazine
References: <9d.45e106c2.2d8b6ea3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c40dcf$b68f6a20$67607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A good interview, it gives me the image of a serious hard working young woman, compliments and good luck!
Anny
  From: MillB at aol.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:29 PM


  http://www.sunspinner.org/issue-spring04/

  Sorry.  How's this?
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 20 09:33:05 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:33:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The War on the Homefront
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKCIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

To see how it's going, go to http://thomas.loc.gov/
and type "H.R. 3687" (w/o the "s) in the search box. 
Take a big bar of soap along.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 20 11:05:23 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:05:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  William Carlos Williams, "The Rewaking"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEKEIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The Rewaking

Sooner or later
we must come to the end
of striving

to re-establish
the image the image of
the rose

but not yet
you say extending the
time indefinitely

by 
your love until a whole
spring

rekindle
the violet to the very
lady's-slipper

and so by
your love the very sun
itself is revived

--William Carlos Williams


fr. *Pictures from Brueghel*
[New York: New Directions, 1962]

in *The Collected Poems of William Carlos Williams:
Volume II -- 1939-1962*
[New York: New Directions, 1986]


Hal                .

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Mar 20 13:26:30 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:26:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maximus' Movie
Message-ID: <113.304cdd95.2d8de6d6@aol.com>

http://www.townonline.com/lynnfield/news/local_regional/nss_artnspoetfilm03192
004.htm
 
His place in history 
 
By Dinah Cardin 
Friday, March 19, 2004
 
 
He was one of the most influential poets of the last century, and Gloucester 
was his main muse. Now, a filmmaker wants to make sure Charles Olson's legacy 
lives on in his hometown.
 
A cast of characters far from whom you would expect to see actually dirty 
dancing, much less at a movie about the act, recently turned up for a premiere 
screening of "Dirty Dancing: Havana Nights" at Lowe's Liberty Tree Mall Cinema 
in Danvers.
 
The crowd appeared middle aged, educated, quite socially conscious ... oh, 
and was there to shell out $30 a head to support a documentary film about a 
poet. 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Mar 20 13:35:50 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:35:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
Message-ID: <27.539cd4cb.2d8de906@aol.com>

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/18/poetry/index_np.html
Eminem vs. Robert Frost
Is hip-hop saving poetry -- or trashing it? Beneath the feel-good rhetoric of 
"Def Poetry Jam" and the "spoken-word revolution" is a battle over the future 
of literature's oldest form.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Mar 20 15:05:25 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:05:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
References: <27.539cd4cb.2d8de906@aol.com>
Message-ID: <03bb01c40eb6$af15e160$e7737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

zeitgeist    ?

They mention in the article and I am adding a question mark. All this speaks to me more as a Big Business than as an artistic/esthetic _ art for the art's sake _ path. I watched the movie on Eminem, it was quite self-glorifying and had some little (high peaks) here and there, the white boy who succeeds because of his stubbornness and talent, talent which was reduced to a couple of lines written here and there while he was moving from one place to the other, I don't know if we ever had the luxury of seeing even One book on the screen, but maybe I removed them...

I would like to read what you all think of these mass movements which fascinate my students.
Is it all to be reduced to a teen-age need of interaction, as I am seeing it, or are we to expect something exception out of it?

Best week-end to all, Anny 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 7:35 PM


  http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/18/poetry/index_np.html

  Eminem vs. Robert Frost

  Is hip-hop saving poetry -- or trashing it? Beneath the feel-good rhetoric of "Def Poetry Jam" and the "spoken-word revolution" is a battle over the future of literature's oldest form. 
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Mar 20 15:39:30 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:39:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] At one with his words
References: <BC7F1C04.76EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <008e01c40ebb$73f70be0$c1b35040@Helen>

from Bottle Rockets - a few months back

we create meanings

trying to cover

the trail of nothing

we are following

            we have only life

            to waste and we get better

            at it all the time.


Hard to be honest --

in fact impossible in

the face of one self.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:27 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] At one with his words


> A notice about the death of Cid Corman remarked that "Now he?s at one with
> his words. . . ."
>
> My first thought was that this was a beautifully striking formulation.  My
> second thought was to wonder: is this a quote or a classical tag or
> something?  Anyone know?
>
>
>
> God--how
>
> can I
> ever
>
> thank you
>
> enough
> for this
>
> nothing?
>
> --Cid Corman.  *APR* (July/Aug 2000).
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Mar 20 16:38:56 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:38:56 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
Message-ID: <86.7736dbc.2d8e13f0@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/20/2004 2:06:06 PM Central Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 
> 
> I would like to read what you all think of these mass movements which 
> fascinate my students.
>  Is it all to be reduced to a teen-age need of interaction, as I am seeing 
> it, or are we to expect something exception out of it?
>   
> 
I think the money, the fame, and the other perqs are the main allure, but I 
guess folks read Byron for many of the same reasons.  I've got several students 
who are into to it, too, and why not?  But I still make them write ballads 
and sonnets like everyone else.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 20 17:20:26 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:20:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sonnet:  Aro(here)und"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEKOIHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Sonnet:  Aro(here)und

A . . . I was going to say "my story," but I think this applies moreorless to
all stories . . . story begins with its very first word, unless, of course, that
word is placed elsewhere than at the beginning of the story. Take the word
"a," for example?an old word, but still a useful one, a halting gesture
toward a "complete" utterance.

Around here, she was saying, we do things differently (altho
the way she said it (i.e. "differently") led me to think
that the word should be placed in quotes. She, after all, was prone
to overstatement with just a hint of intimidation. Her mien
was almost overbearing, the verbenas in the garden

just beyond her window to the contrary notwithstanding.. In a landscape
that almost called for swans on a stream beside a small cottage
with a cheery plume of white smoke ascending skyward
from its red-brick chicanery.



Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html




From terzarima at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 20 23:14:52 2004
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (terzarima at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:14:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
Message-ID: <323910-22004302141452832@M2W041.mail2web.com>


In a message dated 3/20/2004 2:06:06 PM Central Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: 
> 
> I would like to read what you all think of these mass movements which 
> fascinate my students.
>  Is it all to be reduced to a teen-age need of interaction, as I am
seeing 
> it, or are we to expect something exception out of it?
>   
> 
I think the money, the fame, and the other perqs are the main allure, but I 
guess folks read Byron for many of the same reasons. 

Do you really think so? 

I guess I am at some advantage in this discussion-- I'm a poet, and I also
live a household that includes two very smart teenagers who have taught me
a few things about contemporary music, including hip-hop, but also heavy
metal, goth industrial, and punk. They are as passionate about their
aesthetic as I am about mine, and I really don't think that money or fame
has anything to do with it. 

It's theatre, when you get right down to it. And some of it is energetic
and original in a way that reminds me of Beat poetry and all its theatrical
trappings. Is it really surprising that the young would be drawn to this?
And does enjoying this kind of music somehow mean that you cannot also
write sonnets, appreciate Philip Larkin, or studying ancient Chinese poetic
forms?

I think of it as a second cousin to poetry, though. I have over the past
few years taken a strong interest in artists who practice more than one
art, and artists who combine arts-- painting, theatre, poetry, video, etc.
There is a lot of energy there. I would still maintain, though, that how
one experiences language in the act of reading or writing poetry is unique
and profound, and-- though poets have been complaining for an eternity that
their's is a disappearing craft-- I really don't think it is going away any
time soon.

My two bits.

New to this List,

Suzanne Burns

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Mar 21 19:21:33 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:21:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
Message-ID: <89.6643e22.2d8f8b8d@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/20/2004 11:16:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
terzarima at earthlink.net writes:

It's theatre, when you get right down to it. And some of it is energetic
and original in a way that reminds me of Beat poetry and all its theatrical
trappings.
---

It's true, Suzanne, that it is a kind of theater. And the poems/scripts
are often quite well conceived and structured, &, in a slam event, delivered
within a 3-minute timeframe. Slammers have their own formal constraints,
at least in competition...another is that props & backing music are 
prohibited. 

A good bit of Thill's article seems to be claiming success based on sales...
and I think Eleveld (the editor of the book/CD) has a chip on his shoulder. 

From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Mar 22 10:18:43 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:18:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's blog
Message-ID: <001001c41020$fa555230$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Harryette Mullen, Lew Welch & Jim Behrle:
Poetry & marketing
(from Althusser to Baudrillard)

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

"Leaving the Atocha Station" - the elegy
Meaning & market dynamics

Brenda Iijima:
Around Sea

Charles Borkhuis:
Surrealism, Language Poetry & 
New American Aesthetics

Cid Corman:
1924-2004

Noah Eli Gordon:
boxing with the ghost of Spicer

Lisa Jarnot:
Swamp Formalism

An anthology of response 
to the test of poetry

Hong Hao, William T. Wiley, 
Hermann Nitsch
& Henry Winkler avoiding eye contact:
Visual art in NYC

A test of poetry:
anonymity & context

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

*	*	*

My latest book Woundwood
is available from Cuneiform Press:
http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html






From laughingrabbi at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 22 10:31:56 2004
From: laughingrabbi at hotmail.com (Lauging Rabbi Press)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:31:56 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
Message-ID: <BAY10-F115oygXLsxpT00008853@hotmail.com>

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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Mar 22 12:14:33 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:14:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
Message-ID: <29950-220043122171433958@M2W090.mail2web.com>

And, of course, if you want to see just how good hip-hop can be -- what art
can be made from its tools -- all you have to do is look back in time a
little, to The Last Poets.

Tad

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Lauging Rabbi Press laughingrabbi at hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:31:56 -0700
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem


<html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR><BR></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=RTE>
<P>I have my own deep reservations?with hip-hop but I think?there is
something we can learn from?it? I have attended many academic readings
where I have left wondering what happened.? I am disheartened how many
poets have not learned how to read poetry.? The oral tradition of poetry
has taken a back seat to "difficult" poetry of the page. Where are the oral
interpretation of poetry and prose classes?? How can so many who love
language so much be so incompetent in reading their own work?? I took two
friends to a university reading.? One was a hip-hop artist and another was
a slam poet.? I have a lot of respect for what?they did.? The reading was
for the most part flat and lacking any energy.??I have read many of
the?poems read that night and they are outstanding poems and outstanding
poets but their inability to communicate "orally"???diminished the power of
what was written.? Other!
?genres of poetry help us to examine our own and see what is its strengths
and what is its weaknesses. Hip-Hop and slam poetry has helped me to work
on my own "reading" skills and I am a better academic poet because of
it.</P>
<P>New to the list</P>
<P>Christopher A Leibow<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: JforJames at aol.com 
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
<DIV></DIV>>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem 
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:35:50 EST 
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<DIV></DIV>> 
<DIV></DIV>>http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/18/poetry/index_np.ht
ml 
<DIV></DIV>>Eminem vs. Robert Frost 
<DIV></DIV>>Is hip-hop saving poetry -- or trashing it? Beneath the
feel-good rhetoric of 
<DIV></DIV>>"Def Poetry Jam" and the "spoken-word revolution" is a battle
over the future 
<DIV></DIV>>of literature's oldest form. 
<DIV></DIV></mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu?subject=unsubscribe><
/mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu?subject=subscribe></mailto:new-po
etry at wiz.cath.vt.edu></mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu?subject=hel
p></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr> <a
href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2746??PS=">All the action. All the drama.
Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN.</a> </html>
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Mar 22 12:44:48 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:44:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A24E@ariel.ripon.edu>

Couple thoughts & recommendations.

Yes to the Last Poets, whose recordings sound very fresh today in many
respects, and indicate one of the main roots of current hip hop styles.  I'm
not a huge fan of rap, myself, but it's not all the same, I know that much,
and some is very inventive, powerful stuff.

A wonderful resource for a range of African American oral poetries is the 2
CD collection *Our Souls Have Grown Deep Like the Rivers*, which includes
some great historical recordings (DuBois, James Weldon Johnson, Claude
McKay, Langston Hughes, Margaret Walker...) and zooms forward through
Brooks, Hayden, Knight, Angelou, The Last Poets, et al. to  to folks like
Public Enemy, Kevin Young, Tracie Morris, Saul Williams, and Carl Rux.

I'm currently teaching a course called Poetry Aloud, and right now we're
listening to and reading the book *The Spoken Word Revolution*, which comes
with a CD of performances in the slam, hip hop, spoken word, and related
styles.  

The last book we did was *Stand Up Poetry*, which contains a whole 'nother
range of oral poetics. 

Before that, *The Essential Etheridge Knight*, which is full of wonderful
stuff and constitutes yet another of the branching roots of hip hop.  I
recommend especially Knight's essay "On the Oral Nature of Poetry," which
appeared in *Painted Bride Quarterly* & is available in PDF format online at
their site.  

http://pbqarchive.rutgers.edu/archive_html/32-33.shtml

The whole Etheridge Knight tribute issue is worth reading.
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	tadrichards at prodigy.net
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, March 22, 2004 11:14 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	RE: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
> 
> And, of course, if you want to see just how good hip-hop can be -- what
> art
> can be made from its tools -- all you have to do is look back in time a
> little, to The Last Poets.
> 
> Tad
> 
> 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Mar 22 16:19:01 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:19:01 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem
References: <BAY10-F115oygXLsxpT00008853@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c41053$4c209430$0c1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I am one of those Poets who does not know how to read, I can read in class and I love to read, but I cannot read my poems in front of other people. Which is silly and easy to do, just a little practice would be enough to get through, but since I am scared (booooh they might eat me) I avoid all meetings, and hide away. As you can see, it is not enough to know where the problem resides to dissolve it, as some psychological schools have put forward.
And yes, hip-hop and slam poetry can indeed help you perfection your reading skills, as some good theater or movies, if you can imitate, and I should be good at it.
We'll see, when? Who knows?
Cheers, Anny

  From: Lauging Rabbi Press 
  Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:31 PM






  I have my own deep reservations with hip-hop but I think there is something we can learn from it  I have attended many academic readings where I have left wondering what happened.  I am disheartened how many poets have not learned how to read poetry.  The oral tradition of poetry has taken a back seat to "difficult" poetry of the page. Where are the oral interpretation of poetry and prose classes?  How can so many who love language so much be so incompetent in reading their own work?  I took two friends to a university reading.  One was a hip-hop artist and another was a slam poet.  I have a lot of respect for what they did.  The reading was for the most part flat and lacking any energy.  I have read many of the poems read that night and they are outstanding poems and outstanding poets but their inability to communicate "orally"   diminished the power of what was written.  Other!  genres of poetry help us to examine our own and see what is its strengths and what is its weaknesses. Hip-Hop and slam poetry has helped me to work on my own "reading" skills and I am a better academic poet because of it.

  New to the list

  Christopher A Leibow



  >From: JforJames at aol.com 
  >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  >Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hip-Hop Problem 
  >Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 13:35:50 EST 
  >MIME-Version: 1.0 
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  > 
  >http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/03/18/poetry/index_np.html 
  >Eminem vs. Robert Frost 
  >Is hip-hop saving poetry -- or trashing it? Beneath the feel-good rhetoric of 
  >"Def Poetry Jam" and the "spoken-word revolution" is a battle over the future 
  >of literature's oldest form. 


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Mar 22 17:20:22 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:20:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <00ae01c4105b$de339f90$0c1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Dear All,

here is the latest update of the Poet's Corner featuring the following Poets:

Jos? Kozer
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=87

Lidia Vianu
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=88

Deborah L. Humphreys
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=89

Janet Jackson
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=90

Damaris Calder?n Campos
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=91

Adeena Karasick
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=92

Joanna Boulter
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=94

Ruth Fainlight
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=95

Peter Howard
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=96


To Deborah Russell's pages some new pictures by the Author have been added, plus the following new poems:

The spawning of choice
 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=433

At the door of dreams
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=434

You make coffee
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=435

A Quiet Poem for Mother
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=436

Daffodils
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=437

Interlude
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=438


A new poem by Henry Gould, 
Temple Emanu-El
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=487


Another Schmaiku, this time on Mel Gibson, by Al Aronowitz:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=171


Visual work by August Highland
personally dedicated to ME (!)
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=421

and a complete review of his Towns in Alphanumeric Labs
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=422


A critical note by Adeena Karasick on bill bissett:
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=466


The main index can be found at:
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content

To all my warmest thank you for having delighted my days and work with poetry, 
best

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

"We know that under a revealed image there is another one more faithful to reality, and under that one there is another one, and again another one under the latter. To the true image of that absolute, mysterious reality that no one will ever see. Or maybe to the scanning of any image of whatever reality."
Michelangelo Antonioni, 1964
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From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 17:54:18 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:54:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Monthly Writers & Teachers Series, B&N Glendale
Message-ID: <8c.67174ae.2d90c89a@aol.com>

Monthly Writers & Teachers Series
 
If you missed March's first Writers & Teachers reading with Elena Byrne and 
three students, you have another Los-Angeles area opportunity this Tuesday to 
hear local writers and teachers read their poetry.
 
Stan Apps teaches at Chapman University.  A graduate of the UCI MFA program, 
he's a member of a number of writing groups who self publish their work, 
electronically and in small chapbooks and pamphlets.  
 
Frankie Drayus is a Director of the Valley Contemporary Poets, and editor of 
their annual anthology of poems from the poets they feature at their LA-area 
reading series.  She has published two chapbooks and a spoken word CD.  Her 
poem, "Yielding," has been optioned for dramatization as a screenplay and is 
currently a film project at the Toronto Film Centre.
 
7:30
Tuesday, March 23
Barnes & Noble Glendale
245 N. Glendale Blvd.
Glendale, CA 91206
 
free parking
 
Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
 
Author, DaDaDa (Salt Publishing, 2003)
ISBN:  1876857951
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From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Mar 22 22:32:11 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:32:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Beard of Bees Pub
Message-ID: <157.30c06717.2d9109bb@aol.com>

http://www.beardofbees.com/

"Our most recent chapbook is Boy Girl Boy by Catherine Daly."

More news on my blog

http://cadaly.blogspot.com


All best,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar 23 15:15:15 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:15:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] CENTENARY OF NERUDA:
Message-ID: <f5.392c3bfb.2d91f4d3@aol.com>

CENTENARY OF NERUDA: World-wide Programs Celebrate 100 Years of 
Pablo Neruda & Reading of "Heights of Macchu Picchu" on Mountains in 
South America and Mt. Everest.

CONTACT: Ram Devineni, Program Coordinator at 1-212-723-4125 or 
devineni at dialoguepoetry.org / Rodrigo Rojas, (Santiago, Chile) 56-2-
676-2590 or rodrigo.rojas at udp.cl
    
The writer Gabriel Garc?a M?rquez wrote, Pablo Neruda was "the 
greatest poet of the twentieth century ? in any language." Dialogue 
Through Poetry, Rattapallax, and Fundacion Pablo Neruda are helping 
to promote literary programs around the world to celebrate Neruda's 
accomplishments and his role as a global citizen.  Some notable 
events are occurring at the John F. Kennedy Center for the 
Performing Arts in Washington, D.C.; The Americas Society in New 
York City; Jardim das Artes in S?o Paulo, Brazil; Auditorio de 
Comfenalco in Cali, Colombia; and UNESCO headquarters in Paris.

Working with poets and professional mountain climbers, there will be 
readings of Neruda's classic poem "Heights of Macchu Picchu" on Mt. 
Aconcagua (Argentina); Illimani (Bolivia); Chimborazo (Ecuador); Mt. 
Everest (Nepal); the Andes in Chile; and Macchu Picchu (Peru). 
Photos and/or video will be provided as reference for each reading. 
The program called Neruda on the Peaks is a continuation of the 
successful Poetry on the Peaks program started in 2002 to celebrate 
the United Nations' Year of the Mountain (IYM). The professional 
climbing partner is Alpine Ascents International. The mountain 
readings will coincide with the annual Dialogue Through Poetry Week 
and UNESCO's World Poetry Day happening the week of 21, March 2004. 

In addition, Pulitzer Prize winner Yusef Komunyakaa (Neon 
Vernacular: New & Selected Poems) and American Book Award winner 
Mart?n Espada (Imagine the Angels of Bread) will travel to Santiago 
to participate in Chile's celebration of their national poet on July 
12, 2004. The event hosted by Rattapallax will be featured at 
Universidad Diego Portales.

Mart?n Espada, called by Sandra Cisneros, the Pablo Neruda of North 
American authors, says: "This represents the fulfillment of a dream: 
to visit Neruda's Chile and to pay homage to the poet who has most 
deeply influenced me, as a writer and person."

A new documentary, Neruda! Presente! will also be released this year 
along with several important anthologies and new translations such 
as The Poetry of Pablo Neruda edited by Ilan Stavans (Farrar Straus 
& Giroux) and The Essential Neruda edited by Mark Eisner (City 
Lights).  Rattapallax magazine will present a special issue on poets 
and musicians influenced by Neruda featuring work from Edward 
Hirsch, Marjorie Agosin, Mart?n Espada, musicians Luciana Souza and 
Marciano, and many others.

Lastly, to honor Pablo Neruda, a petition has been submitted to the 
International Astronomical Union (IAU) to name a crater on Mercury 
after the beloved Chilean poet.

For more information about the programs, please visit 
http://www.dialoguepoetry.org or information about World Poetry Day 
and Neruda, please visit http://www.unesco.org/bsp/neruda/

 



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 16:21:09 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:21:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rorty's poetics of futurity
Message-ID: <156.30e2de54.2d9355c5@aol.com>

http://www.crosscurrents.org/hollandwinter2004.htm
Richard Rorty?s utopian social hopes are post-metaphysical, inspired by a 
Deweyan pragmatism and an Emersonian and Whitmanesque ?poetics of futurity.? He 
is very fond of Whitman?s democratic vistas and pluralistic social visions of 
what might be called a secular eschatology



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed Mar 24 16:33:13 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:33:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] We're over the top because that's where the truth went.
References: <156.30e2de54.2d9355c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4061FE98.F809FFC0@ix.netcom.com>

http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/shan.htm
American 'Democracy's' Intimidatin' Rhythm; Where History Regurgitates
Itself:
The Threat Of Renewed U.S. Attacks Make Salvadorans Fear Voting For A
Better Life:
Roger Noriega, Otto Reich, CIA And The Cheney Administration Remind
Salvadorans of U.S. Death Squads And Heavily Militarized Kleptocracy As
Well As Mutilated Priests and Nuns:
Noriega: "The U.S. was prepared to make sure that Salvadorans lost if
Handal had won ala Chile 1973." "Ecuador Fucked. And It Was So Easy,"
Otto Reich Tells The Reader's Digest How The U.S. Has deep-Sixed
Another Democrcay That Promised To Help Its Poor:
Cheney: "I'm Mightily Proud To Say That Not One Poor Person Anywhere
On The Planet Has Caught A Break During My Administration."(Cited From
Guinness Book Of World Records):
"U.S. Main Obstacle To God's Work," Confesses Jerry Falwell
By BLOODY BATH SHANNANNIGANS

http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/sham.htm
Haiti Politicians Say New 'Vichy' Gov't Kleptocratic Like Its U.S. Creator:
New Cabinet A Who's Who Of People Who No One Voted For In Last
Election:
FOIA Request Turns Up Documents Showing The NED Gave Venezuelan
'White Asses' Money; Assassinated Press Right Again! Washington Post
Wrong. Washington Times Soils Itself As Usual.:
Its The Project For A New American Century Vs. Central Intelligence; PNAC
Candidate De Facto President Dick Cheney Trades Barbs With CIA
Candidate John Kerry:
Kerry Promises Not To Re-open Subcommittee Hearings On CIA/NSC/State
Drugs, Arms and Terrorist Connections In Exchange For Democratic
Candidacy
By LIAN SHAM

http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/editor5.htm
Beam Me Up, Scotty:
Study Shows That Those Who Work For The U.S. Media Develop Criminal
Psychosis:
Scott Wilson & The Washington Post---Homicidal Maniacs In Our Midst:
Getting Home Delivery Of The Washington Post Is Like Discovering A
Murder Weapon In Your Front Yard Every Morning
By THE EDITORS



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Thu Mar 25 13:38:49 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:38:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marti?--Perhaps not right now.
References: <156.30e2de54.2d9355c5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40632738.8DB30049@ix.netcom.com>

And for the cruel one who would tear out
This heart with which I live.
I cultivate neither thistles nor nettles
But open their throat like a ripe poppy
.
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/stats
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/marti.htm
Cuba Gets Its Pubah; Roger Noriega Plans Bay Of Pigs II; Uses Doomed
Bush Campaign Funds To Finance Havana Bloodbath:
Opie To Do the Movie Version Starring Mel Gibson As The Resurrected
Jorge Mas Canosa:
Pumped Up By Success of Haitian Kidnapping And Kerry Selection, Tenet
And CIA Step Up Pressure On Havana But Refuses Dissidents' Requests
For A Minimum Wage And Health Benefits Calling The Request
Anti-American:
Washington Post Wins 'William Randolph Hearst Award For Yellow
Journalism' For The Tenth Straight Year
By JOSE JESUS MARTIDOM








From elemenope at icubed.com  Thu Mar 25 01:14:48 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:14:48 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RadLib/Commie Oncological Absurdity
In-Reply-To: <200403251701.i2PH17XE012722@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200403251701.i2PH17XE012722@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100302bc8826fb7f98@[204.215.201.166]>

A new outbreak of RadLib/Commie oncological absurdity.

- - - Without the least connection to poetry.

Gancie/Purcell would have the public believe that it is in the 
interest of USA to impoverish millions so that they will illegally 
crash the borders of Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California to be 
put on the dole by the Democrat Party.

When Gancie/Purcell rant is examined closely it is found that the 
verbs don't parse with the nouns.  Adjectival canards are their main 
vocabulary.

These agitators are unkind people who live like ghouls on the edge of Al Qaeda.




R - - -



>
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:33:13 -0500
>From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] We're over the top because that's where the truth went.
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/
>http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/shan.htm
>American 'Democracy's' Intimidatin' Rhythm; Where History Regurgitates
>Itself:
>The Threat Of Renewed U.S. Attacks Make Salvadorans Fear Voting For A
>Better Life:
>Roger Noriega, Otto Reich, CIA And The Cheney Administration Remind
>Salvadorans of U.S. Death Squads And Heavily Militarized Kleptocracy As
>Well As Mutilated Priests and Nuns:
>Noriega: "The U.S. was prepared to make sure that Salvadorans lost if
>Handal had won ala Chile 1973." "Ecuador Fucked. And It Was So Easy,"
>Otto Reich Tells The Reader's Digest How The U.S. Has deep-Sixed
>Another Democrcay That Promised To Help Its Poor:
>Cheney: "I'm Mightily Proud To Say That Not One Poor Person Anywhere
>On The Planet Has Caught A Break During My Administration."(Cited From
>Guinness Book Of World Records):
>"U.S. Main Obstacle To God's Work," Confesses Jerry Falwell
>By BLOODY BATH SHANNANNIGANS
>
>http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/sham.htm
>Haiti Politicians Say New 'Vichy' Gov't Kleptocratic Like Its U.S. Creator:
>New Cabinet A Who's Who Of People Who No One Voted For In Last
>Election:
>FOIA Request Turns Up Documents Showing The NED Gave Venezuelan
>'White Asses' Money; Assassinated Press Right Again! Washington Post
>Wrong. Washington Times Soils Itself As Usual.:
>Its The Project For A New American Century Vs. Central Intelligence; PNAC
>Candidate De Facto President Dick Cheney Trades Barbs With CIA
>Candidate John Kerry:
>Kerry Promises Not To Re-open Subcommittee Hearings On CIA/NSC/State
>Drugs, Arms and Terrorist Connections In Exchange For Democratic
>Candidacy
>By LIAN SHAM
>
>http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/editor5.htm
>Beam Me Up, Scotty:
>Study Shows That Those Who Work For The U.S. Media Develop Criminal
>Psychosis:
>Scott Wilson & The Washington Post---Homicidal Maniacs In Our Midst:
>Getting Home Delivery Of The Washington Post Is Like Discovering A
>Murder Weapon In Your Front Yard Every Morning
>By THE EDITORS
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest


-- 


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 11:13:32 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:13:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wright reflects, & "Buffalo Yoga"
Message-ID: <1d7.1d0f9d85.2d95b0ac@aol.com>

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/books/166334_wright26.html

Wright's latest collection has just been published. "Buffalo Yoga" (Farrar 
Straus, 75 pages, $20) is filled with painterly images and simple, yet eloquent 
language as he approaches his eighth decade.

"All my life I've listened for the dark speech of silence," Wright writes in 
the title poem. "And now, every night/ I hear a slight murmur, a slow rush/ My 
blood setting out on its long journey beyond the skin."



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:05:48 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:05:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <1d7.1d0f9d85.2d95b0ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040326190548.47735.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

On the advice of many reviews that I've read, I've
been reading Wright's _Black Zodiac_.  To be
honest--and I know that what I'm about to say may mark
me as stupid for many who might be reading this--I
just don't get what's going on in Wright's work. I
can't even get a handle on it from a surface read. 
He's masterful with aphorisms.  But that's all that I
can seem to find from his work. It seems opaque to me,
unaware of any reader outside of the poet.  I know
that we don't write to please other (I know that I
don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
that *someone* will read her work?  

Maybe Wright is deliberate in his impenatrable poetry.
 Maybe I'm not smart enough.  I'm struggling here
because I don't want to dismiss Wright, but I don't
want to give into the old argument that states if
something is difficult, then it must be profound (an
argument I had shoved in my face all too often in
graduate school).

Perhaps I'm being philistine--I don't mean to be.  I
don't think that difficult poetry should be dismissed.
 I do think, however, that poetry that purposefully
eludes a reader is probably not worth my time.  This
statement alone will anger many a poet and probably
many readers, as well.  Nonetheless, I struggle with
this paradox.  How much *should* a reader have to do
to understand--even get a surface read--of a poem?

I wanted to read Wright because I'm interested in
narrative poetry and southern poetry; I've read and
heard that he writes narrative set in the south.  I
don't have the copy of the book here with me in my
office, but one or two later poems in the book seem to
explempify this understanding of Wright.

I suppose my question are thus:  What do you all think
of Wright's work?  Am I being unfair?  Can anyone
offer me some guidance in reading his work?  

Thanks,

Jeff Newberry




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From Faustina1 at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 14:09:53 2004
From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:09:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
Message-ID: <1a3.2219d265.2d95da01@aol.com>

I notice that Charles Wright is on Poetry Daily today.  As for suggestions, I 
cannot offer any, never having been particularly crazy about him either.  
Janet
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Mar 26 14:11:00 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:11:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <20040326190548.47735.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1d7.1d0f9d85.2d95b0ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <406439F4.27368.175BC2B@localhost>

On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> ... I know
> that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> that *someone* will read her work?<

Well, if you don't write to please others, why do you write? I mean, 
what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself? And quietly!







From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Mar 26 01:15:33 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:15:33 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RadLib/Commie Oncological Absurdity
In-Reply-To: <200403261701.i2QH1HXE021461@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200403261701.i2QH1HXE021461@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc897833b43f@[204.215.201.204]>

Oh, I forgot.  When RadLib/Commies provide poetry to the masses,
it's of the imitato-Republican Hallmark Greetings variety.
Instead of posies and chintzery, they scrawl nettles and thistles,
but it's all of the same sameness and moral dubiety.  Asses.

>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:38:49 -0500
>From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Marti?--Perhaps not right now.
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>And for the cruel one who would tear out
>This heart with which I live.
>I cultivate neither thistles nor nettles

>>>>But open their throat like a ripe poppy


These agitators are unkind people living like ghouls in the shadow of Al Qaeda.

===========

R - - -




-- 


From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 26 14:26:10 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:26:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <406439F4.27368.175BC2B@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040326192610.6267.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>

I guess what I mean Marcus is that I write mainly
because I enjoy doing it.  However, I try to balance
that fact with the fact that I want a reader to read
it.

Make sense?

By the way--I do agree with you.  Too much mental
mastrubation passes for poetry these days.

Jeff Newberry

--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > ... I know
> > that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> > that *someone* will read her work?<
> 
> Well, if you don't write to please others, why do
> you write? I mean, 
> what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself?
> And quietly!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Mar 26 14:45:14 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:45:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <20040326192610.6267.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <406439F4.27368.175BC2B@localhost>
Message-ID: <406441FA.30386.195127C@localhost>

> > On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > > ... I know
> > > that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> > > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> > > that *someone* will read her work?<
> > 
> > Well, if you don't write to please others, why do
> > you write? I mean, 
> > what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself?
> > And quietly!

On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:26, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> I guess what I mean Marcus is that I write mainly
> because I enjoy doing it.  However, I try to balance
> that fact with the fact that I want a reader to read
> it.

All right, I understand "I enjoy doing it" but is that reason enough 
to claim it's art and try to get others to read it? 

Using the same masturbation metaphor, I'm sure you enjoy sex, too, 
but I doubt you film it and call it art and try to get it shown as a 
movie. Is "I enjoy doing it" enough of a reason to call it art and 
hope others see it?

But back to the mundane actuality of poems-on-the-page: who would you 
like to have read it? Everyone from the pimply teen looking at the 
greeting cards in the drugstore to the office clerk cruising the net 
to the ceo of a company to the greying academic who's read everything 
and taught it all, too? Anyone in particular? Do you (do any of you) 
have an "ideal reader" in mind as you write? Someone of whom you say 
to yourself, "Ah, this'll get a nod or a smile!"?







From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 14:49:10 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:49:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tony Harrison awarded
Message-ID: <8.490af2f4.2d95e336@aol.com>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1177460,00.html

Tony Harrison won the Northern Rock Foundation Writer's Award, worth 
?60,000...

Harrison said: "[This award] could not have come at a better time in my 
career. 

"I need to look back on my poetic ventures, make sense of them as a whole and 
move forward ... and to experiment without external demands." 






From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Mar 26 14:54:26 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:26 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
References: <406439F4.27368.175BC2B@localhost> <406441FA.30386.195127C@localhost>
Message-ID: <00a601c4136c$25517e70$86607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 8:45 PM


> But back to the mundane actuality of poems-on-the-page: who would you
> like to have read it? Everyone from the pimply teen looking at the
> greeting cards in the drugstore to the office clerk cruising the net
> to the ceo of a company to the greying academic who's read everything
> and taught it all, too? Anyone in particular? Do you (do any of you)
> have an "ideal reader" in mind as you write? Someone of whom you say
> to yourself, "Ah, this'll get a nod or a smile!"?

I do, every time I write something, be it for work or for _pleasure_, I have
somebody in mind. I could dedicate every work I have written to someone, not
the same person, but each word/work was done for someone. This is for you
and for those who are on this list.




From edward.byrne at valpo.edu  Fri Mar 26 16:04:43 2004
From: edward.byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:04:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <20040326190548.47735.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <34A52AAA-7F69-11D8-A48B-0003931C15DA@valpo.edu>

Jeff,

I have long been an admirer of Charles Wright's poetry, and I regard him 
as among those contemporary poets at the highest level.  A review I 
wrote that might clarify why I feel this way about Wright's work can be 
found at the following:

http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/byrnereviewwright.html

Best,

Ed Byrne

>
> I suppose my question are thus:  What do you all think
> of Wright's work?  Am I being unfair?  Can anyone
> offer me some guidance in reading his work?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff Newberry

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 26 16:22:00 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:22:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
References: <1d7.1d0f9d85.2d95b0ac@aol.com> <406439F4.27368.175BC2B@localhost>
Message-ID: <00e301c41378$61d72730$22efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > ... I know
> > that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> > that *someone* will read her work?<
>
> Well, if you don't write to please others, why do you write? I mean,
> what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself? And quietly!
>
Would it be wrong to take photographs intended for an album you knew no one
would look at but you?

I compose in the hopes that others will enjoy what I've done but I would not
compose if I didn't enjoy the process for itself alone or hope that I would
enjoy the result as an art object when I was finished making it.

There are, of course, many motivations for making poems--pleasing oneself,
and pleasing others are just two of them.

--Bob G.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Fri Mar 26 23:05:37 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:05:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
Message-ID: <1d6.1d4e00e3.2d965791@aol.com>

his poems seem to be visual but silent

breath but no flesh

I want to like them, but they don't stay with me

I don't feel them in my body
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 27 00:55:33 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:55:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <406441FA.30386.195127C@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040327055533.89214.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, Marcus, since you seem to be fishing for some
answer from me, I'll just ask:  what do you want me to
say?  This way, I can avoid your belittling me and
trying to make me look stupid.

Just let me know.

Jeff Newberry

--- Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > > On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > > > ... I know
> > > > that we don't write to please other (I know
> that I
> > > > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the
> fact
> > > > that *someone* will read her work?<
> > > 
> > > Well, if you don't write to please others, why
> do
> > > you write? I mean, 
> > > what's the point? Why not just recite to
> yourself?
> > > And quietly!
> 
> On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:26, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > I guess what I mean Marcus is that I write mainly
> > because I enjoy doing it.  However, I try to
> balance
> > that fact with the fact that I want a reader to
> read
> > it.
> 
> All right, I understand "I enjoy doing it" but is
> that reason enough 
> to claim it's art and try to get others to read it? 
> 
> Using the same masturbation metaphor, I'm sure you
> enjoy sex, too, 
> but I doubt you film it and call it art and try to
> get it shown as a 
> movie. Is "I enjoy doing it" enough of a reason to
> call it art and 
> hope others see it?
> 
> But back to the mundane actuality of
> poems-on-the-page: who would you 
> like to have read it? Everyone from the pimply teen
> looking at the 
> greeting cards in the drugstore to the office clerk
> cruising the net 
> to the ceo of a company to the greying academic
> who's read everything 
> and taught it all, too? Anyone in particular? Do you
> (do any of you) 
> have an "ideal reader" in mind as you write? Someone
> of whom you say 
> to yourself, "Ah, this'll get a nod or a smile!"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 09:08:17 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 09:08:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
Message-ID: <126.3d346d5a.2d96e4d1@aol.com>

I write because I can't stop.   I don't think it's so much about pleasing 
others as it is about needing to find an echo of the poetry thing in others.   
There's a deep "sharing" here (pardon the earthy crunchy phrase, but I think 
it's true.   How often are we real with each other otherwise?   Certainly not at 
a faculty meeting).   We need to find each other in this way.   It's like sex, 
only more comprehensive.   We're driven -- that is, those of us who actually 
make the poems.   Charles Wright only lights up a few receptors in me.   
Somebody like Dorianne Laux, or Jack Gilbert, or Cavafy, lights them all).
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Mar 27 09:51:49 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 09:51:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <00e301c41378$61d72730$22efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40654EB5.24257.2A307D@localhost>

> > On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > > ... I know
> > > that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> > > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> > > that *someone* will read her work?<
> >
> > Well, if you don't write to please others, why do you write? I mean,
> > what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself? And quietly!


On 26 Mar 2004 at 16:22, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Would it be wrong to take photographs intended for an album you knew
> no one would look at but you?<

But who said it was *wrong* to write just to please oneself, Bob? I'm 
asking if it can be called "art". I'm also asking why anyone who 
writes such journals or takes such private photographs would want to 
try to get such naively personal and, presumably, artless stuff 
"published". 

> I compose in the hopes that others will enjoy what I've done but I
> would not compose if I didn't enjoy the process for itself alone or
> hope that I would enjoy the result as an art object when I was
> finished making it.<

What's the basis for the hopes that others will enjoy what you've 
done if you don't take into account what they enjoy and why they 
enjoy it, for example?

What's the basis for calling some made thing "an art object" if only 
the maker ever sees it, unusual cases like "stranded on a desert 
island", and the like, aside?
 
> There are, of course, many motivations for making poems--pleasing
> oneself, and pleasing others are just two of them.<

There are many motivations for playing with language, to be sure, but 
why should we call those playings "poems" if they please neither the 
maker nor the reader? 

Marcus






From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Mar 27 10:05:22 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:05:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <126.3d346d5a.2d96e4d1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <406551E2.11645.369880@localhost>

On 27 Mar 2004 at 9:08, Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote:
> I write because I can't stop.<

I guess I don't see how this answers the question of how to decide 
whether any given writing is art or not. 

> I don't think it's so much about 
> pleasing others as it is about needing to find an echo of the poetry
> thing in others.<

How do you find an echo of the poetry thing in others if you don't 
try to please those others with your poetry thing?

> There's a deep "sharing" here ... We need to find
> each other in this way. It's like sex, only more comprehensive. We're
> driven -- that is, those of us who actually make the poems.<

But I still don't see how this answers the question about whether 
it's art, whether you intend it to be art, or intend others to take 
it as art, or whether others do take it as art. Is need art? Does 
need make art?





From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 10:12:36 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:12:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] For New England Poets
Message-ID: <116.3079d4b2.2d96f3e4@aol.com>

Subj:    MiPo Magazine - New England edition
Date:   3/26/04 2:57:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   pjnights_mipo at yahoo.com (PJ Nights)
To: michelangelo1933 at yahoo.com

Hello,
 
First of all, I apologize for sending several of you the same email.  I hope 
you don't regard this as spam, but as a sincere effort to contact a wide 
variety of New England poets.
 
I'm writing to invite you submit unpublished works to the New England Edition 
of MiPo Magazine to be published in September 2004.  We are an online journal 
in its fourth year of publication.  The most recent edition was guest-edited 
by David Trinidad and features poetry by Elaine Equi, David Lehman, Amy 
Gerstler, Anselm Berrigan, Ron Padgett, Maureen Seaton and many more.  Here the link 
to the issue:
 
http://www.mipoesias.com/
 
Submission guidelines and a  link to the submissions form can be found here:
 
http://www.mipoesias.com/April2004/guidelines.htm
 
You may also email submissions to me in the body of an email.
 
Thank you for your time.
 
PJ Nights
senior editor, MiPo


From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Sat Mar 27 11:11:05 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:11:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
Message-ID: <1da.1d8498cd.2d970199@aol.com>

I associate trying to please people with a kind of neurosis: it says, please 
love me.   This all may be a matter of semantics, and what you are saying may 
be the same as what I'm saying.   I believe that poets should write more and 
publish less.   This means not giving in to needing to be recognized; but 
instead holding out for the very best poems we can make.   There are too many books 
of poems and the shelves are groaning: some of them are those unfortunate 
things called "tenure books," that must be written in order to remain 
academically valid (and which nobody reads, not even the tenure committee); but much of 
what I see published seems to have a   kind of bleating "love me" banner 
attached.   Most of this poetry is mediocre.   

I am not suggesting that we write in a vacuum, only for ourselves, that would 
be absurd; merely that we publish only those poems that do what poetry is 
supposed to do: that is, provide us with a language that corresponds to a world 
that is much more alive than, for example, that which George Bush lives in.

Cheers, and no intention of disrespect.

Doug
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 27 13:41:54 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:41:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
References: <40654EB5.24257.2A307D@localhost>
Message-ID: <011601c4142b$2e9f5640$66efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > > On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > > > ... I know
> > > > that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> > > > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> > > > that *someone* will read her work?<
> > >
> > > Well, if you don't write to please others, why do you write? I mean,
> > > what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself? And quietly!
>
>
> On 26 Mar 2004 at 16:22, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > Would it be wrong to take photographs intended for an album you knew
> > no one would look at but you?<
>
> But who said it was *wrong* to write just to please oneself, Bob? I'm
> asking if it can be called "art".

No, you asked, "What's the point?"  Okay, to be exact, I should have asked
in return, "Would it be POINTLESS to take photographs intended for an album
you knew
no one would look at but you?"  As anyone but you would have knew I meant.

> I'm also asking why anyone who
> writes such journals or takes such private photographs would want to
> try to get such naively personal and, presumably, artless stuff
> "published".

I wasn't answering that, but I would say because one thinks that something
one gets pleasure from might prove pleasureable to others.  One may not be
aware one's stuff is artless, especially if others do seem to like it.

> > I compose in the hopes that others will enjoy what I've done but I
> > would not compose if I didn't enjoy the process for itself alone or
> > hope that I would enjoy the result as an art object when I was
> > finished making it.<
>
> What's the basis for the hopes that others will enjoy what you've
> done if you don't take into account what they enjoy and why they
> enjoy it, for example?

The fact that they are human beings like I am.  But there are all kinds of
other factors--like, for instance, that I may be inspired by some poem I
know others like so I might reasonably expect that I caught something of
that admired poem in my own that will cause others to like my poem.

> What's the basis for calling some made thing "an art object" if only
> the maker ever sees it, unusual cases like "stranded on a desert
> island", and the like, aside?

This gets into taxonomy, which you are incompetent to discuss, Marcus.  I
will say that, for me, an art object is a clearly non-utilitarian object
whose aim, to most observers, is to express beauty in some form.

> > There are, of course, many motivations for making poems--pleasing
> > oneself, and pleasing others are just two of them.<
>
> There are many motivations for playing with language, to be sure, but
> why should we call those playings "poems" if they please neither the
> maker nor the reader?

Why say they are not poems because you don't care for them instead of saying
that they are poor poems, or--less arrogantly--that they are poems you don't
care for?




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sat Mar 27 16:34:04 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:34:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
References: <406439F4.27368.175BC2B@localhost> <406441FA.30386.195127C@localhost>
Message-ID: <4065F34B.629B1F84@ix.netcom.com>

You are all cordially invited to an evening of poetry by former Clinton
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, the author of three volumes of
verse, A Baker's Nickel, Of Son And Seasons, and Smart Bombs From The
Heart.

Mr. Cohen along with former senate colleagues and staff, NEA Chairman
Dana Gioia and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice will also read
from the works of E.A. Robinson, Edgar Lee Masters, A.E. Housman, Edna
Saint Vincent Millay, R.S. Flint, Calvin Coolidge, James Jesus
Angletongue, Madame Chennault, Fulgencio Batista, Allen Dulles, George
Lincoln Rockwell and Ty Cobb.

Refreshments and a musical interlude by the St. Alban's Future
Kleptocrcats of America Boy's Choir.

The festivities will begin at 7:30 PM in the cloak room at Constitutional
Hall and go on until the Sapphic soul of poetry is spent or 9:00 PM
whichever comes sooner. BYOB. Tickets Free Like America.





From anastasios at lostbaklava.com  Sat Mar 27 22:50:34 2004
From: anastasios at lostbaklava.com (Anastasios Kozaitis)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:50:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
In-Reply-To: <4065F34B.629B1F84@ix.netcom.com>
References: <406439F4.27368.175BC2B@localhost> <406441FA.30386.195127C@localhost> <4065F34B.629B1F84@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <1080445834.40664b8ad1fac@www.lostbaklava.com>


Will Charles Wright be reading? 



Quoting "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:

> You are all cordially invited to an evening of poetry by former Clinton
> Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, the author of three volumes of
> verse, A Baker's Nickel, Of Son And Seasons, and Smart Bombs From The
> Heart.
> 
> Mr. Cohen along with former senate colleagues and staff, NEA Chairman
> Dana Gioia and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice will also read
> from the works of E.A. Robinson, Edgar Lee Masters, A.E. Housman, Edna
> Saint Vincent Millay, R.S. Flint, Calvin Coolidge, James Jesus
> Angletongue, Madame Chennault, Fulgencio Batista, Allen Dulles, George
> Lincoln Rockwell and Ty Cobb.
> 
> Refreshments and a musical interlude by the St. Alban's Future
> Kleptocrcats of America Boy's Choir.
> 
> The festivities will begin at 7:30 PM in the cloak room at Constitutional
> Hall and go on until the Sapphic soul of poetry is spent or 9:00 PM
> whichever comes sooner. BYOB. Tickets Free Like America.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sat Mar 27 15:53:37 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:53:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] prescient
References: <200403261701.i2QH1HXE021461@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc897833b43f@[204.215.201.204]>
Message-ID: <4065E9D1.24245A00@ix.netcom.com>

GEORGE GORDON LORD BYRON SPEAKS OUT AGAINST
GLOBALIZATION:
AN ODE TO THE FRAMERS OF THE FRAME BILL
         In Defense of the Luddites:

          By LORD BYRON
          Morning Chronicle
          March 2, 1812 [The Year The British Burned Washington]
          Special To The Assassinated Press

          1

          Oh well done Lord E-----n ! and better done R----r !
          Britannia must prosper with councils like yours;
          Hawkesbury, Harrowby, help you to guide her,
          Whose remedy only must kill ere it cures:
          Those villains, the Weavers, are all grown refractory,
          Asking some succour for Charity's sake ---
          So hang them in clusters round each Manufactory,
          That will at once put an end to mistake.

          2

          Thr rascals, perhaps, may betake them to robbing,
          The dogs to be sure have got nothing to eat ---
          So if we can hang them for breaking a bobbin,
          'Twill save all the Government's money and meat:
          Men are more easily made than machinery ---
          Stockings fetch better prices than lives ---
          Gibbets on Sherwood will heighten the scenery,
          Showing how Commerce, how Liberty thrives !

          3

          Justice is now in pursuit of the wretches,
          Grenadiers, Volunteers, Bow-street Police,
          Twenty-two Regiments, a score of Jack Ketches,
          Three of the Quorum and two of the Peace;
          Some Lords, to be sure, would have summoned the Judges
          To take their opinion, but that they ne'er shall,
          For Liverpool such a concession begrudges,
          So now they're condemned by no Judges at all.

          4

          Some folks for certain have thought it was shocking,
          When Famine appeals and when Poverty groans,
          That Life should be valued at less than a stocking,
          And breaking of frames lead to breaking of bones.
          If it should prove so, I trust, by this token,
          ( And who will refuse to partake in the hope? )
          That the frames of the fools may be first to be broken,
          Who, when asked for a remedy, send down a rope.





From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 28 11:47:20 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:47:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
In-Reply-To: <4065F34B.629B1F84@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <20040328164720.54282.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com>

Dismissive and typical.

Jeff Newberry

--- "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
> You are all cordially invited to an evening of
> poetry by former Clinton
> Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, the author of
> three volumes of
> verse, A Baker's Nickel, Of Son And Seasons, and
> Smart Bombs From The
> Heart.
> 
> Mr. Cohen along with former senate colleagues and
> staff, NEA Chairman
> Dana Gioia and National Security Adviser Condoleeza
> Rice will also read
> from the works of E.A. Robinson, Edgar Lee Masters,
> A.E. Housman, Edna
> Saint Vincent Millay, R.S. Flint, Calvin Coolidge,
> James Jesus
> Angletongue, Madame Chennault, Fulgencio Batista,
> Allen Dulles, George
> Lincoln Rockwell and Ty Cobb.
> 
> Refreshments and a musical interlude by the St.
> Alban's Future
> Kleptocrcats of America Boy's Choir.
> 
> The festivities will begin at 7:30 PM in the cloak
> room at Constitutional
> Hall and go on until the Sapphic soul of poetry is
> spent or 9:00 PM
> whichever comes sooner. BYOB. Tickets Free Like
> America.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Mar 28 12:31:04 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:31:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Another=20country:=20Portugal's=20Nuno=20J=FAdice?=
Message-ID: <105.429ee5d4.2d9865d8@aol.com>

http://www.brazzil.com/2004/html/articles/mar04/p105mar04.htm

Nuno J?dice: I have never written poetry thinking of this planetary form of 
promotion the Internet occupies nowadays. Poetry is an isolated and solitary 
act where one faces oneself and one's own subjectivity. And it is on this plane 
that I create it. The publication will eventually give a different destiny to 
the poem, but naturally that is not part of the writer's creative project. 
Oftentimes I surprise myself in seeing how a poem or a book follows a certain 
path I could not have possibly imagined at the time the poem was written.
    
    
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From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sun Mar 28 13:26:15 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:26:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
Message-ID: <20040328182615.35D973967@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Mar 28 01:55:21 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:55:21 +0800
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
In-Reply-To: <200403281701.i2SH1KXE004273@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200403281701.i2SH1KXE004273@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc8c235b10f2@[204.215.201.151]>

Yes, dismissive and typical, indeed.  Who needs Cohen? I don't get 
why Poet Carter isn't the main act in G&P's fantasy, with a walk in 
by Castro?  Hell, bring in Saddam, he's a Socialist poet AND 
comedian.  If they included the Chateau Marmot crowd and had Julia 
Roberts do her Reptiles/Republican quips, why the need for parody? 
Stage it all in Georgetown at The Four Seasons with Martina 
Navratilova as the emcee.  Then they could have it going at least 
both ways out of all the sides of their mouths spinning in circles at 
78 rpms.

R - - -


>
>Message: 5
>Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:47:20 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jeff Newberry <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Dismissive and typical.
>
>Jeff Newberry
>
>--- "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>wrote:
>>  You are all cordially invited to an evening of
>>  poetry by former Clinton
>  > Secretary of Defense

-- 


From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Sun Mar 28 19:10:32 2004
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 04 19:10:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <200403290015.i2T0F2np125590@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 12:01:02 -0500 *************
>>I associate trying to please people with a kind of neurosis: it says, please
>>love me.
Well, yes and no.  If the people are not present or personally known, then
I agree.  But trying to please friends, lover, acquaintances, people who
might in response in fact love you, it's a pretty good idea, if you present
yourself as worthy of love, not just needy.
>>This all may be a matter of semantics
It amazes me that people say this: semantics means the meaning of
words - and in discourse what else is there?

Richard


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 28 19:46:41 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:46:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
References: <200403290015.i2T0F2np125590@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <01f801c41527$5031b800$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> >>I associate trying to please people with a kind of neurosis: it says,
please
> >>love me.
> Well, yes and no.  If the people are not present or personally known, then
> I agree.  But trying to please friends, lover, acquaintances, people who
> might in response in fact love you, it's a pretty good idea, if you
present
> yourself as worthy of love, not just needy.
> >>This all may be a matter of semantics
> It amazes me that people say this: semantics means the meaning of
> words - and in discourse what else is there?
>
> Richard

For me, "a matter of semantics" is a colloquialism meaning "it may just be
that I'm using a different definition of the given term or terms than you
are rather than genuinely disagreeing with you."

--Bob G.




From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Sun Mar 28 21:26:33 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:26:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <da.6bdd9c1.2d98e359@aol.com>

I guess I'm just saying that trying to "please" people has negative 
associations for me.   I would be more comfortable with another word.   I am not, by 
the way, an isolationist, or one who assumes that an audience is not important.  
 Of course it is.

D
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Sun Mar 28 21:28:02 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:28:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <15a.312c76ff.2d98e3b2@aol.com>

Bob, you're right, and thus we refine our conversation.

D
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Sun Mar 28 21:34:49 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:34:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
Message-ID: <7d.4a346850.2d98e549@aol.com>

I love the way my hands hurt a little
when I whack one dead on
and the way the fielders back up 
when I come to the plate, jeez
It almost gets me hot.   I like to think
the girls in the stands have to fan 
their hats a little under their skirts

(wink wink)
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From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sun Mar 28 23:59:37 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:59:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
Message-ID: <20040329045937.02D663966@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 07:16:58 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:16:58 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
Message-ID: <145.2594cf6e.2d996dba@aol.com>

mine, of course
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 29 07:44:52 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:44:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <1da.1d8498cd.2d970199@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4067D3F4.6423.1B2536@localhost>

On 27 Mar 2004 at 11:11, Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote:
> I associate trying to please people with a kind of neurosis: it says,
> please love me.<

As opposed, do you mean, to those people who do not try to please 
people who are associated with another kind of neurosis that says 
"Fuck you!"? Isn't there a sense of "trying to please people with 
art" that doesn't merely reveal a neurotic neediness?

> ... I believe that poets
> should write more and publish less. This means not giving in to
> needing to be recognized; but instead holding out for the very best
> poems we can make.<

But the notion I'm trying to explore, here, is what are the criteria 
for "the very best poems we can make"? Do such poems have to please 
their readers? Should they please only their authors? Should they 
offend or disgust or even move their readers to gather together the 
torches and pitchforks and storm the author's castle? How do we tell 
when we encounter one of the "very best poems"?

> ... but much of
> what I see published seems to have a kind of bleating "love me" banner
> attached. Most of this poetry is mediocre. <

Most poetry is mediocre, of course -- as is most of anything, unless 
you subscribe to Sturgeon's Law: "90% of everything is crap". I'd say 
that 90% of of all poems are crap if what we're looking for is "the 
very best poems", since from the height of the very best the mediocre 
and the bad are much the same. But just saying this doesn't get us 
anywhere, really, in trying to explain how to discriminate between 
the very best and the mediocre.

> I am not suggesting that we write in a vacuum, only for ourselves,
> that would be absurd; merely that we publish only those poems that do
> what poetry is supposed to do: that is, provide us with a language
> that corresponds to a world that is much more alive than, for example,
> that which George Bush lives in.<

A very low bar to get over, it seems to me. If that sort of language 
is all poetry can be expected to do then you don't expect it to do 
very much at all.

Marcus





From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Mar 29 08:15:07 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:15:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c4158f$e01bee50$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Magazine, book, or anthology?
The between-ness of the One Shot publication.

Writing as give:
A family tradition

Trobar Clus:
A poetics of total engagement

Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind:
Charlie Kaufman 
& the George Romero Poetry Conference

Harryette Mullen, Lew Welch & Jim Behrle:
Poetry & marketing
(from Althusser to Baudrillard)

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

"Leaving the Atocha Station" - the elegy
Meaning & market dynamics

Brenda Iijima:
Around Sea

Charles Borkhuis:
Surrealism, Language Poetry & 
New American Aesthetics

Cid Corman:
1924-2004

Noah Eli Gordon:
boxing with the ghost of Spicer

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

*	*	*

My latest book Woundwood
is available from Cuneiform Press:
http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html






From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 29 08:14:19 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:14:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <011601c4142b$2e9f5640$66efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4067DADB.22781.361B48@localhost>

> > > > On 26 Mar 2004 at 11:05, Jeff Newberry wrote:
> > > > > ... I know
> > > > > that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> > > > > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> > > > > that *someone* will read her work?<
> > > >
> > > > Well, if you don't write to please others, why do you write? I
> > > > mean, what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself? And
> > > > quietly!
> >
> > On 26 Mar 2004 at 16:22, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > Would it be wrong to take photographs intended for an album you
> > > knew no one would look at but you?<
> >
> > But who said it was *wrong* to write just to please oneself, Bob?
> > I'm asking if it can be called "art".
> 
On 27 Mar 2004 at 13:41, Bob Grumman wrote:
> No, you asked, "What's the point?"  Okay, to be exact, I should have
> asked in return, "Would it be POINTLESS to take photographs intended
> for an album you knew no one would look at but you?" <

No, of course not -- there are lots of reasons to keep a written or 
photo journal for reasons that have nothing to do with trying to make 
art. The question at hand, though, is whether making such a journal 
is the same as making art.

> > I'm also asking why anyone who
> > writes such journals or takes such private photographs would want to
> > try to get such naively personal and, presumably, artless stuff
> > "published".
> 
> I wasn't answering that, but I would say because one thinks that
> something one gets pleasure from might prove pleasureable to others. 
> One may not be aware one's stuff is artless, especially if others do
> seem to like it.<

Well, of course, it depends on which others like it, doesn't it? If 
Hallmark called you tomorrow, Bob, enamored of your mathemaku and 
offered you enormous amounts of money to coin them for their cards, 
would you do it? And if it turned out that your mathemaku cards were 
best-sellers would you equate that with excellence in poetry?

I don't hold that it is only pleasing others with language that makes 
poetry -- I'm pointing out that determinedly not pleasing others with 
language doesn't make poetry, either.

> > > I compose in the hopes that others will enjoy what I've done but I
> > > would not compose if I didn't enjoy the process for itself alone
> > > or hope that I would enjoy the result as an art object when I was
> > > finished making it.<
> >
> > What's the basis for the hopes that others will enjoy what you've
> > done if you don't take into account what they enjoy and why they
> > enjoy it, for example?
> 
> The fact that they are human beings like I am.  But there are all
> kinds of other factors--like, for instance, that I may be inspired by
> some poem I know others like so I might reasonably expect that I
> caught something of that admired poem in my own that will cause others
> to like my poem.<

The "they are human beings as I am" argument has a number of flaws, 
principle among which is that there is no evidence that being a human 
being confers on any individual, nor on every individual, the ability 
to distinguish excellence from mediocrity in poetry -- nor to enjoy 
the distinction if they make it, nor even to enjoy poetry itself 
whether excellent, mediocre, or bad. 
 
> > What's the basis for calling some made thing "an art object" if only
> > the maker ever sees it, unusual cases like "stranded on a desert
> > island", and the like, aside?
 
> This gets into taxonomy, which you are incompetent to discuss, Marcus.<

More name-calling -- it is disheartening to see that you resort to 
this kind of thing over and over again, Bob. Your use of "taxonomy" 
is confused, and I've pointed out again and again just how it is 
confused: you're trying to use a scientific term to add weight and 
significance to your views. So far, nothing wrong with that so long 
as you mean it and use it metaphorically. But the moment your usage 
moves from a metaphorical one to an actual claim to have done science 
and to have created a taxonomy based on objectively measurable or 
observable differences (for example, the way scales are different 
from feathers, or the way pinnately is different from palmately, and 
the like), differences that are non-volitional phenomena which cannot 
be changed by those who exhibit them, then your use is confused. Why? 
Because schools of poetry and poets' practices are volitional, and 
easily changed. The only taxonomy of poetry that's possible in this 
sense is one of schools of poetry whose practitioners are all dead, 
and which schools no one uses any more. 

It is your confusion of the metaphorical use with the scientific use 
of taxonomy that I have long pointed out, along with your use of the 
word "objective", which you seem to think means "subjective". 

>  I will say that, for me, an art object is a clearly non-utilitarian
> object whose aim, to most observers, is to express beauty in some
> form.<

Nothing useful is art? 
Are you saying that the expression of beauty is not useful?

> > > There are, of course, many motivations for making poems--pleasing
> > > oneself, and pleasing others are just two of them.<
> >
> > There are many motivations for playing with language, to be sure,
> > but why should we call those playings "poems" if they please neither
> > the maker nor the reader?
> 
> Why say they are not poems because you don't care for them instead of
> saying that they are poor poems, or--less arrogantly--that they are
> poems you don't care for?

The words "poem" and "poetry" carry connotative weight, Bob -- they 
are terms that are almost always used to make a claim for the 
collection of words beyond being merely a collection of words that 
makes sense, or is persuasive, or sounds pretty, or rhymes, or 
signifies in any other way. 

The use of "poem" or "poetry" to describe anything anyone claims is a 
poem or is poetry appears to me to be a deliberate and knowing 
attempt to make the same kind of confused conflation you make when 
you use "taxonomy" non-metaphorically to try to describe your attempt 
to order poetry into schools: it looks like an improprer use of a 
word the proper use of which lends weight and significance to the 
writer's meaning.

What I'm pointing out is that the improper use of such words, the 
deliberate conflation of meanings, the knowing confusion of 
connotation and denotation in order to try to make otherwise 
unsupported claims, is pernicious.

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 29 08:19:32 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:19:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
In-Reply-To: <da.6bdd9c1.2d98e359@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4067DC14.16424.3AE132@localhost>

On 28 Mar 2004 at 21:26, Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote:
> I guess I'm just saying that trying to "please" people has negative
> associations for me. I would be more comfortable with another word. I
> am not, by the way, an isolationist, or one who assumes that an
> audience is not important. Of course it is.

Well, then, assuming that the audience really is important, as you 
say it is, what are you trying to do for that audience for your 
poetry if not please it?

Marcus




From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Mon Mar 29 08:24:55 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:24:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
Message-ID: <20040329132455.9AA7D3962@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 29 08:32:35 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:32:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
In-Reply-To: <1080445834.40664b8ad1fac@www.lostbaklava.com>
References: <4065F34B.629B1F84@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <4067DF23.4560.46D40C@localhost>

And is it every single day from now until whenever? Or is there a 
particular day on which this event occurs?


On 27 Mar 2004 at 22:50, Anastasios Kozaitis wrote:

> 
> 
> Will Charles Wright be reading? 
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>:
> 
> > You are all cordially invited to an evening of poetry by former
> > Clinton Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, the author of three
> > volumes of verse, A Baker's Nickel, Of Son And Seasons, and Smart
> > Bombs From The Heart.
> > 
> > Mr. Cohen along with former senate colleagues and staff, NEA
> > Chairman Dana Gioia and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice
> > will also read from the works of E.A. Robinson, Edgar Lee Masters,
> > A.E. Housman, Edna Saint Vincent Millay, R.S. Flint, Calvin
> > Coolidge, James Jesus Angletongue, Madame Chennault, Fulgencio
> > Batista, Allen Dulles, George Lincoln Rockwell and Ty Cobb.
> > 
> > Refreshments and a musical interlude by the St. Alban's Future
> > Kleptocrcats of America Boy's Choir.
> > 
> > The festivities will begin at 7:30 PM in the cloak room at
> > Constitutional Hall and go on until the Sapphic soul of poetry is
> > spent or 9:00 PM whichever comes sooner. BYOB. Tickets Free Like
> > America.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 08:32:33 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:32:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <55F16CFC.5D43AC6D.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

In King Lear, does the blinding of Gloucester "please you?"  I don't think the word "please" suffices to describe the experience of poetry.  Again, it's a matter of word choice.  I don't know if I can be more clear.

D


From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 08:33:01 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:33:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <06E606F2.3A843E2B.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

In King Lear, does the blinding of Gloucester "please you?"  I don't think the word "please" suffices to describe the experience of poetry.  Again, it's a matter of word choice.  I don't know if I can be more clear.

D


From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Mon Mar 29 08:36:45 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:36:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
Message-ID: <20040329133645.EB1383952@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 29 08:41:31 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:41:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
In-Reply-To: <55F16CFC.5D43AC6D.0B0A44C0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4067E13B.14791.4F029F@localhost>

On 29 Mar 2004 at 8:32, Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote:
> In King Lear, does the blinding of Gloucester "please you?"  I don't
> think the word "please" suffices to describe the experience of poetry.
>  Again, it's a matter of word choice.  I don't know if I can be more
> clear.

Ah, but it is not the blinding of Gloucester that pleases me, but the 
presentation of that blinding in the context of the play and in the 
context of Gloucester's own behavior subsequently. Does his son's 
behavior in persuading Gloucester to live after all NOT please you? 
Does Lear itself not please you, for all the violence and terror? 
Isn't what we mean by "poetry must please the audience" something 
other than "poetry must reveal the writer's needy neurosis for the 
expression of love for him or her by others"?

You've said the audience is important -- what's it important FOR if 
not to be pleased by poetry? Poetry, after all, is HOW something is 
said, not WHAT is said. If all you're looking for is what is said, 
prose is what you need.

Marcus





From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 09:06:18 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:06:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <05E6C717.431CD8B5.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

I don't think I have anything else to say on the subject and must now withdraw from the discussion.

Cheers,

D


From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 09:07:20 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:07:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
Message-ID: <0496AE4A.1ABE1B6C.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

I do not understand your question vis a vis anything I might have said: please clarify?


From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Mon Mar 29 09:19:55 2004
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:19:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring/Summer 2004 Valparaiso Poetry Review
In-Reply-To: <34A52AAA-7F69-11D8-A48B-0003931C15DA@valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10403290855.B@muahost.valpo.edu>

Announcement: 

Publication of the Spring/Summer 2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_, the 
tenth issue of VPR and its largest yet.  

The Spring/Summer 2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ is now available at 
the following url:

http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/


*Spring/Summer 2004 Issue Contents*

Featured Poet: Margot Schilpp.  

Additional Poets: Barry Ballard, J.P. Dancing Bear, Jared Carter, Barbara 
Crooker, Annie Finch, Carol Frith, Gray Jacobik, Doug Jones, Greg Keeler, 
Cheryl Lachowski, Joel Long, Chelle Miko, Kathleen Mullen, Lee Passarella, 
Marianne Poloskey, John Popielaski, Carol Coffee Reposa, and Angela 
Vogel.?

Poets Reviewed: Jeff Friedman, Jorie Graham, Amy Meckler, Margot 
Schilpp, Ann Silsbee. 

Cover Art Commentary: Gregg Hertzlieb on Elizabeth Nourse 

As always, the new issue includes a list of recently received and recommended 
books of poetry or poetics, as well as guidelines for submissions.  Submissions 
and review copies of books are always welcome.  All past issues of VPR and a 
complete archive of poems, essays, interviews, reviews, and commentary on art 
remain available for reading.

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu  Mon Mar 29 09:25:47 2004
From: lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:25:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
In-Reply-To: <4067DC14.16424.3AE132@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0403290917390.11605-100000@andromeda.rutgers.edu>

> Well, then, assuming that the audience really is important, as you
> say it is, what are you trying to do for that audience for your
> poetry if not please it?
>
> Marcus

Engage it.  Transport it.  Re-orient its consciousness.  Occasionally
to change it.  Quicken it.  Open doors for it.  Enlighten, shock,
surprise, lull momentarily.....

Fill in every thing poetry has ever done for you.  If it has pleased
you, has it not also profoundly angered you at times, sometimes with
righteous indignation at what it has made you see afresh or for the
first time?

Lutibelle/Louie






From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 29 09:34:08 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:34:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0403290917390.11605-100000@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
References: <4067DC14.16424.3AE132@localhost>
Message-ID: <4067ED90.15054.467AD@localhost>

> > Well, then, assuming that the audience really is important, as you
> > say it is, what are you trying to do for that audience for your
> > poetry if not please it?
> > Marcus

On 29 Mar 2004 at 9:25, Louie Crew wrote:
> Engage it.  Transport it.  Re-orient its consciousness.  Occasionally
> to change it.  Quicken it.  Open doors for it.  Enlighten, shock,
> surprise, lull momentarily.....
> Fill in every thing poetry has ever done for you.  If it has pleased
> you, has it not also profoundly angered you at times, sometimes with
> righteous indignation at what it has made you see afresh or for the
> first time?

Sure, and all those things fall into the category of "pleased me" -- 
because it is, deliberately, I think, a very broad category, one used 
to seek agreement rather than to argue for the primacy of shock over 
seeing afresh, or the like.






From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 09:36:39 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:36:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <637851C3.4AB1DF28.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

thank you, well done.


From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Mon Mar 29 09:38:26 2004
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 04 09:38:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "A matter of semantics"
Message-ID: <200403291443.i2TEhEKO100958@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:10:03 -0500 *************
>>> It amazes me that people say this: semantics means the meaning of
>>> words - and in discourse what else is there?
>>>
>>> Richard
>>
>>For me, "a matter of semantics" is a colloquialism meaning "it may just be
>>that I'm using a different definition of the given term or terms than you
>>are rather than genuinely disagreeing with you."
>>
>> Bob G
Clearly, for you and everybody else who uses it that way.  But wouldn't
"a matter of definition" be more accurate?  And I think "rather than.."
is overstating; there may be genuine disagreement, but the phrase seems
to me to suggest that it's not worthwhile to strain toward accurate
expression of one's ideas.

Richard


From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Mar 29 09:56:47 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:56:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "A matter of semantics"
In-Reply-To: <200403291443.i2TEhEKO100958@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <4067F2DF.27757.1927C4@localhost>

> ***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:10:03 -0500
> ************* >>> It amazes me that people say this: semantics means
> the meaning of >>> words - and in discourse what else is there? >>>
> >>> Richard >> >>For me, "a matter of semantics" is a colloquialism
> meaning "it may just be >>that I'm using a different definition of the
> given term or terms than you >>are rather than genuinely disagreeing
> with you." >> >> Bob G 

> Clearly, for you and everybody else who uses it
> that way.  But wouldn't "a matter of definition" be more accurate? 
> And I think "rather than.." is overstating; there may be genuine
> disagreement, but the phrase seems to me to suggest that it's not
> worthwhile to strain toward accurate expression of one's ideas.
> Richard

Well, that would fit in with Grumman's practice.

Marcus





From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 10:02:48 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:02:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "A matter of semantics"
Message-ID: <087072CA.0B01C5EC.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

thank you


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 10:15:01 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:15:01 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
Message-ID: <d5.8ae5ad5.2d999775@aol.com>

I'd like to welcome some of the new members
who have signed on of late. 
Also, I'd like to remind those of you 
(the usual suspects) who are prone 
to derisive comments & baiting 
to be on your best behavior.
Jim Finnegan
NewPoetry List
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From anastasios at lostbaklava.com  Mon Mar 29 10:47:24 2004
From: anastasios at lostbaklava.com (Anastasios Kozaitis)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:47:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Davenport reviews LOA Pound
Message-ID: <1080575244.4068450cc8347@www.lostbaklava.com>


Pierre Joris posted this link to the BuffPo list.

Link to Guy Davenport's review of the Library of America POEMS AND
TRANSLATIONS BY EZRA POUND, EDITED BY RICHARD SIEBURTH. (1,383 PAGES.
$45):

http://www.bookforum.com/davenport.html


From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 11:32:28 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:32:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
Message-ID: <7DBDB824.642F293E.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

Hi, Jim


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 29 14:19:00 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:19:00 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please please me"
Message-ID: <200403291902.i2TJ2dTa070878@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

does anybody know the history of the phrase

"Pleased as punch"?

----------
>From: Djoysgrape at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
>Date: Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 5:32 AM
>

> In King Lear, does the blinding of Gloucester "please you?"  I don't think
> the word "please" suffices to describe the experience of poetry.  Again,
> it's a matter of word choice.  I don't know if I can be more clear.
>
> D
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From anastasios at lostbaklava.com  Mon Mar 29 15:06:39 2004
From: anastasios at lostbaklava.com (Anastasios Kozaitis)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:06:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please please me"
In-Reply-To: <200403291902.i2TJ2dTa070878@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200403291902.i2TJ2dTa070878@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <1080590799.406881cf0c361@www.lostbaklava.com>

Chris:

Meaning--Very pleased.
Origin--From the Punch and Judy slapstick puppet character. Punch originated
from Pulcinello an Italian puppet with similar characteristics. In Punch and
Judy performances the Punch character is depicted as self-satisfied and pleased
with his evil deeds.

ref: Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 15th edition.


Quoting Chris Stroffolino  <cstroffo at earthlink.net>:

> does anybody know the history of the phrase
> 
> "Pleased as punch"?
> 
> ----------
> >From: Djoysgrape at aol.com
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
> >Date: Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 5:32 AM
> >
> 
> > In King Lear, does the blinding of Gloucester "please you?"  I don't think
> > the word "please" suffices to describe the experience of poetry.  Again,
> > it's a matter of word choice.  I don't know if I can be more clear.
> >
> > D
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 15:57:29 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:57:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please please me"
Message-ID: <1df.1c82562f.2d99e7b9@aol.com>

No but I can speculate that it's from the punch and judy shows.
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Mar 29 16:28:06 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:28:06 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please please me"
Message-ID: <200403292111.i2TLBLTc126558@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

thanks for this...

----------
>From: Anastasios Kozaitis <anastasios at lostbaklava.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please please me"
>Date: Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 12:06 PM
>

> Chris:
>
> Meaning--Very pleased.
> Origin--From the Punch and Judy slapstick puppet character. Punch originated
> from Pulcinello an Italian puppet with similar characteristics. In Punch and
> Judy performances the Punch character is depicted as self-satisfied and
pleased
> with his evil deeds.
>
> ref: Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 15th edition.
>
>
> Quoting Chris Stroffolino  <cstroffo at earthlink.net>:
>
>> does anybody know the history of the phrase
>>
>> "Pleased as punch"?
>>
>> ----------
>> >From: Djoysgrape at aol.com
>> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
>> >Date: Mon, Mar 29, 2004, 5:32 AM
>> >
>>
>> > In King Lear, does the blinding of Gloucester "please you?"  I don't think
>> > the word "please" suffices to describe the experience of poetry.  Again,
>> > it's a matter of word choice.  I don't know if I can be more clear.
>> >
>> > D
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 29 16:25:19 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:25:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "A matter of semantics"
References: <200403291443.i2TEhEKO100958@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c415d4$57c95980$5befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> ***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:10:03 -0500 *************
> >>> It amazes me that people say this: semantics means the meaning of
> >>> words - and in discourse what else is there?
> >>>
> >>> Richard
> >>
> >>For me, "a matter of semantics" is a colloquialism meaning "it may just
be
> >>that I'm using a different definition of the given term or terms than
you
> >>are rather than genuinely disagreeing with you."
> >>
> >> Bob G
> Clearly, for you and everybody else who uses it that way.  But wouldn't
> "a matter of definition" be more accurate?

I dunno.  "A matter of semantics" seems to me to mean "a matter of way of
defining."  Better would be "you and I may just be using words in different
ways."  But the standard colloquialism is there, so why not use it?

And I think "rather than.."
> is overstating; there may be genuine disagreement, but the phrase seems
> to me to suggest that it's not worthwhile to strain toward accurate
> expression of one's ideas.

I think it usually means "let's clarify what we're saying."

--Bob G.
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 16:28:27 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:28:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "A matter of semantics"
Message-ID: <1c0.16edde76.2d99eefb@aol.com>

right you are bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 29 17:21:27 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:21:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "A matter of semantics"
References: <1c0.16edde76.2d99eefb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015901c415dc$2f80dfe0$5befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  right you are bob 

  Thanks, but let me take this opportunity to suggest that you quote posts you're replying to?  Or otherwise make some kind of reference to them (as here you did with my name).  Several of yours went past me because I didn't know what they were responses to.  

  Glad to have you responding, though.  

  --Bob G.
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 17:23:53 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:23:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "A matter of semantics"
Message-ID: <68.3cf47f2b.2d99fbf9@aol.com>

will quote text in response in future

thanks

D
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From timothycole at sbcglobal.net  Mon Mar 29 22:34:42 2004
From: timothycole at sbcglobal.net (Timothy Cole)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:34:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
In-Reply-To: <d5.8ae5ad5.2d999775@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002801c41607$f148aab0$210110ac@HPPAVILION>

Thanks, Jim, from one of those new members, on both accounts.
 
Tim Cole
 
I was of three minds,
Like a tree
In which there are three blackbirds.
                                    -- w. stevens
 
-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:15 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
 
I'd like to welcome some of the new members
who have signed on of late. 
Also, I'd like to remind those of you 
(the usual suspects) who are prone 
to derisive comments & baiting 
to be on your best behavior.
Jim Finnegan
NewPoetry List
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sun Mar 28 12:44:46 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:44:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
References: <20040328164720.54282.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <40670F0D.A1556159@ix.netcom.com>

J.

Funny how 'dismissiveness' is all  that's left of 'dead
serious.'
'Typical'--- yes, but hardly hyperbolicof the 'system' in
place now that the middle class with its enormous collective
purchasing power both in wealth and sentiment, has bought
the franchise. And for all you proles, I refer you to the
duck. Quack. Quack.

Mighty Augusta
By William S. Cohen

Mighty Augusta,
indifferent to the wind or wave,
sail-less, set sail,
under the gaze
of lovely Diana.

Slip now,
beneath the cold sea
into sunless days
when even noon
is dark as night.

Deep into
that dark, where
wondrous creatures
hidden to the eye
live in violent anonymity...
***
We of Maine and America
remain the children of liberty.

Ass. Press more than ever:
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/


Jeff Newberry wrote:

> Dismissive and typical.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> --- "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
> > You are all cordially invited to an evening of
> > poetry by former Clinton
> > Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, the author of
> > three volumes of
> > verse, A Baker's Nickel, Of Son And Seasons, and
> > Smart Bombs From The
> > Heart.
> >
> > Mr. Cohen along with former senate colleagues and
> > staff, NEA Chairman
> > Dana Gioia and National Security Adviser Condoleeza
> > Rice will also read
> > from the works of E.A. Robinson, Edgar Lee Masters,
> > A.E. Housman, Edna
> > Saint Vincent Millay, R.S. Flint, Calvin Coolidge,
> > James Jesus
> > Angletongue, Madame Chennault, Fulgencio Batista,
> > Allen Dulles, George
> > Lincoln Rockwell and Ty Cobb.
> >
> > Refreshments and a musical interlude by the St.
> > Alban's Future
> > Kleptocrcats of America Boy's Choir.
> >
> > The festivities will begin at 7:30 PM in the cloak
> > room at Constitutional
> > Hall and go on until the Sapphic soul of poetry is
> > spent or 9:00 PM
> > whichever comes sooner. BYOB. Tickets Free Like
> > America.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sun Mar 28 14:01:23 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:01:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ty Cobb a poem for his namesake
References: <20040328182615.35D973967@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <40672102.D149E917@ix.netcom.com>

Nap Lajoie
By Tyrus R. Cobb

There was only one could compare
To this fair haired and swift country boy.
He was white and graceful as falling snow.
His mama called Nap Lajoie.

An Emperor he was in batter 's box
Or covering second for a double play
Coiled two feet above the bag
To confabulate two outs that way.

Me! I choked high up on the bat.
My game was about control
But Nap left his right pinky resting at the brink
And still drove 'em through the hole.

Me! I came in with my spikes in their eyes
And snarled when they whined at the blood,
But Nap, The Gazelle, he parried my stabs
And soared above my razor sharp brood.

Fast enough to hit a rope and still take two.
Agile enough to play over the bag and still cover the hole
Powerful enough with his left foot in the gutter
To draw in his hands and hit the ball pole to pole.

If he didn't manage with the wisdom of
Solomon, was because his mind was fixed to his plot
His tombstone was second base, his bouquets the slide
You hit .422, dead ball or no, your name'll never rot.

Hit to all fields, turn the double play, steal a base,
Steal third, steal home. Hit in the clutch. Run down a foul
Hit for average and drive in runs. I save my praise
For only the best. So you can take your Ruths,
Your hotdogs and homers, but give me Nap Lajoie

.



CobbCoStudioArts wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> I am curious.  What poetry did Ty Cobb write?
>
> Bob Cobb
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> --- Jeff Newberry <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dismissive and typical.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> --- "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
> > You are all cordially invited to an evening of
> > poetry by former Clinton
> > Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, the author of
> > three volumes of
> > verse, A Baker's Nickel, Of Son And Seasons, and
> > Smart Bombs From The
> > Heart.
> >
> > Mr. Cohen along with former senate colleagues and
> > staff, NEA Chairman
> > Dana Gioia and National Security Adviser Condoleeza
> > Rice will also read
> > from the works of E.A. Robinson, Edgar Lee Masters,
> > A.E. Housman, Edna
> > Saint Vincent Millay, R.S. Flint, Calvin Coolidge,
> > James Jesus
> > Angletongue, Madame Chennault, Fulgencio Batista,
> > Allen Dulles, George
> > Lincoln Rockwell and Ty Cobb.
> >
> > Refreshments and a musical interlude by the St.
> > Alban's Future
> > Kleptocrcats of America Boy's Choir.
> >
> > The festivities will begin at 7:30 PM in the cloak
> > room at Constitutional
> > Hall and go on until the Sapphic soul of poetry is
> > spent or 9:00 PM
> > whichever comes sooner. BYOB. Tickets Free Like
> > America.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sun Mar 28 23:42:01 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:42:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
References: <20040329045937.02D663966@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <4067A8F1.3C868644@ix.netcom.com>

Well. Bob, you know us 'free verse' types according to Dana Gioia write that way because we CAN'T write in
set rhyme schemes and meters or even approximate them. CP

CobbCoStudioArts wrote:

> Djoysgrape,
>
> Is the "wink wink" yours or Ty's
>
> Bob
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> --- Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote:
> I love the way my hands hurt a little
> when I whack one dead on
> and the way the fielders back up
> when I come to the plate, jeez
> It almost gets me hot.   I like to think
> the girls in the stands have to fan
> their hats a little under their skirts
>
> (wink wink)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From itsawrap at mindspring.com  Mon Mar 29 00:57:04 2004
From: itsawrap at mindspring.com (itsawrap at mindspring.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:57:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Re: Your document
Message-ID: <200403290609.i2T69DXE008294@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Please have a look at the attached file.
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From cmurray at uta.edu  Mon Mar 29 23:42:21 2004
From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:42:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
Message-ID: <CEE4E6ECB6C98C4281D09A17EC3DC0EDFC4B25@exchange.uta.edu>

I'm new to this list as of several weeks ago.  
Thank you for the welcome. 

Chris Murray

http://www.uta.edu/english/znine
http://texfiles.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 3/29/2004 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager

Thanks, Jim, from one of those new members, on both accounts.
 
Tim Cole
 
I was of three minds,
Like a tree
In which there are three blackbirds.
                                    -- w. stevens
 
-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:15 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
 
I'd like to welcome some of the new members
who have signed on of late. 
Also, I'd like to remind those of you 
(the usual suspects) who are prone 
to derisive comments & baiting 
to be on your best behavior.
Jim Finnegan
NewPoetry List


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 23:45:52 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:45:52 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <da.6d424c9.2d9a5580@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/29/2004 9:35:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> Engage it.  Transport it.  Re-orient its consciousness.  Occasionally
> >to change it.  Quicken it.  Open doors for it.  Enlighten, shock,
> >surprise, lull momentarily.....
> >Fill in every thing poetry has ever done for you.  If it has pleased
> >you, has it not also profoundly angered you at times, sometimes with
> >righteous indignation at what it has made you see afresh or for the
> >first time?
> 
> Sure, and all those things fall into the category of "pleased me" -- 
> because it is, deliberately, I think, a very broad category, one used 
> to seek agreement rather than to argue for the primacy of shock over 
> seeing afresh, or the like.
> 

Switching to the reader's side of this question/equation, shouldn't 
we all read against our gravitation. I think that if I resist
my predilections, I'll likely become better reader of poetry.
I keep some books that I hate. I pick them up from time to 
time, with as much of an open mind as I can muster,  to try 
to love them or to at least to hate them more insightfully. 

There's a jazz anecdote that Miles Davis was once asked why he 
quit playing ballads...he answered, "Because I really love to play ballads."
Finnegan 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Mar 29 23:53:04 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:53:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
Message-ID: <1f1.1c97d8eb.2d9a5730@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/29/2004 10:35:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
timothycole at sbcglobal.net writes:

> Thanks, Jim, from one of those new members, on both accounts.
> 
>   
> 
> Tim Cole
> 
>   
> 
> 

Tim, for you it's a welcome back, I believe.
And I do welcome all of the new members,
not just some.
JF
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 00:04:13 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 00:04:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP?
Message-ID: <15c.30c5455e.2d9a59cd@aol.com>

Okay, who is just back from AWP? How was Chi-town
and the conference? People tell me that next year the AWP
conference is in Vancouver...I'm pretty much against 
our current show of superpower prowess, but I could condone 
annexing that city.  
Finnegan.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Mar 30 00:29:59 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:29:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
Message-ID: <BC8E61F7.7B1D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Yesterday I returned from the AWP conference in Chicago, which was one of
the biggest ever.  Over 4000 in attendance, I heard, and it sure seemed so.
I was physically unable to wedge myself into a couple sessions that were
overstufffed--among them a panel on which I had hoped to hear Bob Hicok
read.  I believe the fire marshall even shut down a couple sessions for
dangerous overcrowding.

Since the nature of this beast is that no one can attend anything close to
all the events, I'd love to hear others' reports on the poetry portions of
the show.  I missed any number of cool-sounding events, myself.

Highlights for me included a panel on Performing The Poem, which was
appropriately lively and well performed, featuring Molly Peacock, Timothy
Liu, Patricia Smith, and others.  My old teacher Madeline DeFrees gave a
nice reading at a Copper Canyon event, too--she's 80 million years old and
going strong.  Marvin Bell, at the same event, gave a reading in which he
seemed to be impersonating a dead man, not just reading about one.

I didn't much care for Dana Gioia's keynote address, in part because I've
heard him give a version of this speech before.  Heard wildly divergent
reviews of his talk from various folk, which I suppose goes to show that
Dana G remains a big lightning rod.

Essentially Gioia told his own life story, rags to poetry riches, followed
by some remarks on the great works he hopes to do at NEA. Well performed,
but rather old news, at least for me.

It *was* a trifle odd to have a keynoter who is famous for knocking the MFA
system speaking to a room full of little but MFAers, I thought.

If you're in Chicago any time soon I *highly* recommend the Rembrandt show
at the Art Institute.  It, too, was overcrowded, though.

At the book fair this year I filled a bag, as usual, with new book
purchases, trades, and freebies.  It will take a good while to make my way
through them all, and I'll probably not be able to resist posting a few
samples from time to time.

Among other items I picked up (and hereby recommend) a collaboration by two
very familiar names, Jim Cervantes & Hal Johnson, *Changing Subjects* (Red
Hen Press).  This consists of a "spontaneous collaboration" of a series of
poems posted to a listserv a while back.  A very interesting poetic
cyberconversation.

Cynthia Huntington's *The Radiant* (Four Way Books, 2003) was the other book
I went looking for first, having seen some poems I liked online.

Here's a sample.


Balch Hill


The birds were talking about me, passing ideas
back and forth along the branches.
They said I had been sick too long,
that I walked among the trees like a tall stranger,
and that where I put my foot was not certain.
They said there was a lightness of uncertainty, and a sliding,
as if my weight would not fall evenly on the earth,
that my head never moved to the left or to the right,
my chin held down, not looking up ? oh that one,
I heard them finally agree: she has been sick too long.

The birds were talking to hear themselves agree on anything,
to make a convention out of the rowdiness of June.
They noted unbirdlike intrusions,
to recall that they alone were birds.
I went on.  I was not tired.  I could walk forever,
if forever lived in that town, but the path ended
on a steep hillside where apple trees grew wild
and I could see four mountains, and the clock tower
rising above the college library, then the highway and the river,
and Vermont in the distance like another country.

The birds were talking to put me into the ground,
to sing me down from their sky.  They said that
a broken thing must be ended.  My feet bruised the fallen
apples under the leaves, and overhead the treetops
were circling in air.  But when I raised my head to answer them,
the wind blew in among the trees, and the flock scattered,

disappearing, becoming nothing, just specks on the sky,
distant, like ash blown up from a fire.  I stood and sniffed
the spice of the apples, under last year?s leaves,
their heavy fragrance sweet, like the sweetest taste of ruin.

--Cynthia Huntington




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From penguino16 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 01:59:46 2004
From: penguino16 at hotmail.com (Kristen R. Garcia)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 01:59:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
Message-ID: <Law10-F6H0EUBpqbKzZ00019ca3@hotmail.com>

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From reneea at verizon.net  Tue Mar 30 02:11:38 2004
From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 02:11:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP
References: <Law10-F6H0EUBpqbKzZ00019ca3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b401c41626$3f13ff60$da66fea9@Barnette>

I did get to hear Bob Hicok and he was charming and hysterically funny!
Renee
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 06:37:10 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:37:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Open Invitation
Message-ID: <4e.2998eebf.2d9ab5e6@aol.com>

dismissiveness, of course, lasts until mr pomo steps outside his front door 
and gets mugged; then, dead seriousness returns

Doug
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar 30 06:38:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:38:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
References: <da.6d424c9.2d9a5580@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01fc01c4164b$8c891990$6eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Switching to the reader's side of this question/equation, shouldn't 
  we all read against our gravitation. I think that if I resist
  my predilections, I'll likely become better reader of poetry.
  I keep some books that I hate. I pick them up from time to 
  time, with as much of an open mind as I can muster,  to try 
  to love them or to at least to hate them more insightfully. 


  I'm sure just about everyone at New-Poetry will agree with you here, James--just as long as you don't apply it to you duties as list moderator.

  --Bob G.
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 06:42:31 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:42:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <1da.1dbce90c.2d9ab727@aol.com>

"reading against our gravitation" is a useful phrase.   Many great poems have 
been written because the writer has "written against his gravitation."   

Billy Collins gave a craft lecture in LA once and said something like: 
"Writing a poem is like dropping a piano out the window.   If the   piano falls to 
the pavement, there's not poem.   At a certain point, the piano has to take a 
turn on go back in another window."

Cheers,

Doug
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar 30 07:04:23 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:04:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
References: <4067DADB.22781.361B48@localhost>
Message-ID: <022201c4164f$256fd510$6eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Okay, let's see if I can get through this without (gasp) indicating what I
think of the person I'm responding to.

> > > On 26 Mar 2004 at 16:22, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > Would it be wrong to take photographs intended for an album you
> > > > knew no one would look at but you?<
> > >
> > > But who said it was *wrong* to write just to please oneself, Bob?
> > > I'm asking if it can be called "art".
> >
> On 27 Mar 2004 at 13:41, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > No, you asked, "What's the point?"  Okay, to be exact, I should have
> > asked in return, "Would it be POINTLESS to take photographs intended
> > for an album you knew no one would look at but you?" <
>
> No, of course not -- there are lots of reasons to keep a written or
> photo journal for reasons that have nothing to do with trying to make
> art. The question at hand, though, is whether making such a journal
> is the same as making art.

I answered a direct question.  It was not about what art is.  That is a
question you changed your original questions to during your latest  round
ofsincerely investigative communications to this group.

> > > I'm also asking why anyone who
> > > writes such journals or takes such private photographs would want to
> > > try to get such naively personal and, presumably, artless stuff
> > > "published".
> >
> > I wasn't answering that, but I would say because one thinks that
> > something one gets pleasure from might prove pleasureable to others.
> > One may not be aware one's stuff is artless, especially if others do
> > seem to like it.<
>
> Well, of course, it depends on which others like it, doesn't it? If
> Hallmark called you tomorrow, Bob, enamored of your mathemaku and
> offered you enormous amounts of money to coin them for their cards,
> would you do it? And if it turned out that your mathemaku cards were
> best-sellers would you equate that with excellence in poetry?

No.  It would make me think I might be composing junk
On the other hand, it would gladden me to know that there's something in
what I'm making that people appreciate.


> I don't hold that it is only pleasing others with language that makes
> poetry -- I'm pointing out that determinedly not pleasing others with
> language doesn't make poetry, either.

I rather doubt that anyone has said or implied that.

> > > > I compose in the hopes that others will enjoy what I've done but I
> > > > would not compose if I didn't enjoy the process for itself alone
> > > > or hope that I would enjoy the result as an art object when I was
> > > > finished making it.<
> > >
> > > What's the basis for the hopes that others will enjoy what you've
> > > done if you don't take into account what they enjoy and why they
> > > enjoy it, for example?
> >
> > The fact that they are human beings like I am.  But there are all
> > kinds of other factors--like, for instance, that I may be inspired by
> > some poem I know others like so I might reasonably expect that I
> > caught something of that admired poem in my own that will cause others
> > to like my poem.
>
> The "they are human beings as I am" argument has a number of flaws,
> principle among which is that there is no evidence that being a human
> being confers on any individual, nor on every individual, the ability
> to distinguish excellence from mediocrity in poetry -- nor to enjoy
> the distinction if they make it, nor even to enjoy poetry itself
> whether excellent, mediocre, or bad.

That they are human beings means they may well have the same tastes as I and
therefore enjoy my poems for the same reasons I do.

> > > What's the basis for calling some made thing "an art object" if only
> > > the maker ever sees it, unusual cases like "stranded on a desert
> > > island", and the like, aside?

The same as calling some made thing an automobile even if no one ever uses
it and only its maker sees it--because it has the attributes of what it is
named.

> > This gets into taxonomy, which you are incompetent to discuss, Marcus.<
>
> More name-calling -- it is disheartening to see that you resort to
> this kind of thing over and over again, Bob. Your use of "taxonomy"
> is confused, and I've pointed out again and again just how it is
> confused: you're trying to use a scientific term to add weight and
> significance to your views. So far, nothing wrong with that so long
> as you mean it and use it metaphorically. But the moment your usage
> moves from a metaphorical one to an actual claim to have done science
> and to have created a taxonomy based on objectively measurable or
> observable differences (for example, the way scales are different
> from feathers, or the way pinnately is different from palmately, and
> the like), differences that are non-volitional phenomena which cannot
> be changed by those who exhibit them, then your use is confused. Why?
> Because schools of poetry and poets' practices are volitional, and
> easily changed. The only taxonomy of poetry that's possible in this
> sense is one of schools of poetry whose practitioners are all dead,
> and which schools no one uses any more.

Your understanding of what you term, "taxonomy," is different from mine, as
you have sufficiently shown without the need to show it yet again.  Nor am I
interested in going over my own views of the subject yet again, particularly
in a forum run by someone who considers those views insipid and of as little
value as you do.

> It is your confusion of the metaphorical use with the scientific use
> of taxonomy that I have long pointed out, along with your use of the
> word "objective", which you seem to think means "subjective".

> >  I will say that, for me, an art object is a clearly non-utilitarian
> > object whose aim, to most observers, is to express beauty in some
> > form.<
>
> Nothing useful is art?
> Are you saying that the expression of beauty is not useful?

Gosh, let me clarify: "I will say that, for me, an art object is a clearly
non-utilitarian object whose MAIN aim, to most observers, is to express
beauty in some form.


> > > > There are, of course, many motivations for making poems--pleasing
> > > > oneself, and pleasing others are just two of them.<
> > >
> > > There are many motivations for playing with language, to be sure,
> > > but why should we call those playings "poems" if they please neither
> > > the maker nor the reader?
> >
> > Why say they are not poems because you don't care for them instead of
> > saying that they are poor poems, or--less arrogantly--that they are
> > poems you don't care for?
>
> The words "poem" and "poetry" carry connotative weight, Bob -- they
> are terms that are almost always used to make a claim for the
> collection of words beyond being merely a collection of words that
> makes sense, or is persuasive, or sounds pretty, or rhymes, or
> signifies in any other way.

> The use of "poem" or "poetry" to describe anything anyone claims is a
> poem or is poetry appears to me to be a deliberate and knowing
> attempt to make the same kind of confused conflation you make when
> you use "taxonomy" non-metaphorically to try to describe your attempt
> to order poetry into schools: it looks like an improprer use of a
> word the proper use of which lends weight and significance to the
> writer's meaning.
>
> What I'm pointing out is that the improper use of such words, the
> deliberate conflation of meanings, the knowing confusion of
> connotation and denotation in order to try to make otherwise
> unsupported claims, is pernicious.
>
> Marcus

Right, which is not at all intended to indicate any disrespect for anyone
committing such acts.

--Bob G.




From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Mar 30 07:53:04 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:53:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
In-Reply-To: <BC8E61F7.7B1D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <2F67C50C-8249-11D8-8ECB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

I'll second David's observations about overcrowding; we were on the 
19th floor and it seemed we were spending more time waiting for 
elevators than attending panels. (And come to think of it, David, I 
didn't even see you there.  The thing's gotten too big.)

I thought the panels had gone downhill, too; there were stretches when 
nothing looked worth going to, and I'd have been glad to escape from a 
few readings and disquisitions if I could have made it unobtrusively to 
the door.  But there were some high points: a reading of Rukeyser's 
play _Houdini_, a panel on Artaud.   Arthur Sze and Richard Jackson had 
good things to say in a poetry & politics panel, and the Lyric 
Landscape people took on the Sublime intelligently enough, though that 
series is getting close to self-parody by now.

As usual, I was there for old friends and the bookfair, and they didn't 
disappoint.  And Chicago was perversely spring-like; I had to unpack my 
parka when we got back to Connecticut.

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
--------------------------

enstasy



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 08:41:13 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 06:41:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
References: <2F67C50C-8249-11D8-8ECB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <406978F8.A5339D57@earthlink.net>


Wendy Battin wrote:
> 
> I'll second David's observations about overcrowding; we were on the
> 19th floor and it seemed we were spending more time waiting for
> elevators than attending panels.

We too were on the 19th floor and christened that middle elevator "the hellevator."

> (And come to think of it, David, I
> didn't even see you there.  The thing's gotten too big.)

I snagged David at the bookfair (2nd floor thereof).  Yes, too big.  The
MFA diaspora?

> 
> I thought the panels had gone downhill, too; there were stretches when
> nothing looked worth going to, and I'd have been glad to escape from a
> few readings and disquisitions if I could have made it unobtrusively to
> the door.  But there were some high points: a reading of Rukeyser's
> play _Houdini_, a panel on Artaud.   Arthur Sze and Richard Jackson had
> good things to say in a poetry & politics panel, and the Lyric
> Landscape people took on the Sublime intelligently enough, though that
> series is getting close to self-parody by now.

Happy to hear of some panels because I attended none!  Well, I did go to
the 2-year college caucus I co-moderated.  Skipped all readings because
no one on the bill seemed compelling to me.  The Art Institute was
terrific, however, as were some of the restaurants, like Russian Tea
Time and Santorini's (Greek).  Most of our time was spent touring and
chatting at the bookfair.

> 
> As usual, I was there for old friends and the bookfair, and they didn't
> disappoint.  And Chicago was perversely spring-like; I had to unpack my
> parka when we got back to Connecticut.

Landed back in Arizona to temps in the 80s!

- Jim


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Mar 30 09:07:31 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:07:31 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Another_country:_Portugal's_Nuno_J=FA?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?dice?=
References: <105.429ee5d4.2d9865d8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c801c41660$57a8ac80$cc737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A very good interview, thank you for sending the link.
Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:31 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Another country: Portugal's Nuno J?dice


  http://www.brazzil.com/2004/html/articles/mar04/p105mar04.htm

  Nuno J?dice: I have never written poetry thinking of this planetary form of promotion the Internet occupies nowadays. Poetry is an isolated and solitary act where one faces oneself and one's own subjectivity. And it is on this plane that I create it. The publication will eventually give a different destiny to the poem, but naturally that is not part of the writer's creative project. Oftentimes I surprise myself in seeing how a poem or a book follows a certain path I could not have possibly imagined at the time the poem was written.


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From sheilafblack at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 09:34:42 2004
From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:34:42 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New member welcome
Message-ID: <BAY10-F17BWF84KtG4700022350@hotmail.com>

I, too, am a new member and wanted to thank Jim for the welcome.  Also for 
the Cynthia Huntington poem.  On the notion of gravitation, I keep returning 
to Keat's idea of negative capability--so briefly defined but so 
suggestive--as not only a call to resist the-too-easy-conclusion but also 
the too-easy-shape placed on experience by one's own aesthetic--the ability 
to remain in aesthetic doubt, uncertainity perhaps?  Anyway, I'm glad to be 
on the list.  Sheila


>From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2052 - 4 msgs
>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:41:02 -0500
>
>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: A Lost Ty Cobb Poem (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
>    2. Re: Re: Re: Your document (itsawrap at mindspring.com)
>    3. RE: message from your list manager (Christine Murray)
>    4. Re: "please love me" (JforJames at aol.com)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:42:01 -0500
>From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, CobbCoStudioArts at ix.netcom.com
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Well. Bob, you know us 'free verse' types according to Dana Gioia write 
>that way because we CAN'T write in
>set rhyme schemes and meters or even approximate them. CP
>
>CobbCoStudioArts wrote:
>
> > Djoysgrape,
> >
> > Is the "wink wink" yours or Ty's
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > Poetry Catamaran
> >
> > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known 
>mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
> >
> > Robert R. Cobb
> > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> > http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> >
> > --- Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote:
> > I love the way my hands hurt a little
> > when I whack one dead on
> > and the way the fielders back up
> > when I come to the plate, jeez
> > It almost gets me hot.   I like to think
> > the girls in the stands have to fan
> > their hats a little under their skirts
> >
> > (wink wink)
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>From: itsawrap at mindspring.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:57:04 -0600
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Re: Your document
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0008_00006365.000039F8--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>From: Christine Murray <cmurray at uta.edu>
>To: "'Timothy Cole '" <timothycole at sbcglobal.net>,
>    "'new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu '" 
><new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu>,
>    "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu '" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:42:21 -0600
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>I'm new to this list as of several weeks ago.
>Thank you for the welcome.
>
>Chris Murray
>
>http://www.uta.edu/english/znine
>http://texfiles.blogspot.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Sent: 3/29/2004 9:34 PM
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
>
>Thanks, Jim, from one of those new members, on both accounts.
>
>Tim Cole
>
>I was of three minds,
>Like a tree
>In which there are three blackbirds.
>                                     -- w. stevens
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
>Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:15 AM
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] message from your list manager
>
>I'd like to welcome some of the new members
>who have signed on of late.
>Also, I'd like to remind those of you
>(the usual suspects) who are prone
>to derisive comments & baiting
>to be on your best behavior.
>Jim Finnegan
>NewPoetry List
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:45:52 EST
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--part1_da.6d424c9.2d9a5580_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>In a message dated 3/29/2004 9:35:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>marcus at designerglass.com writes:
>
> > Engage it.  Transport it.  Re-orient its consciousness.  Occasionally
> > >to change it.  Quicken it.  Open doors for it.  Enlighten, shock,
> > >surprise, lull momentarily.....
> > >Fill in every thing poetry has ever done for you.  If it has pleased
> > >you, has it not also profoundly angered you at times, sometimes with
> > >righteous indignation at what it has made you see afresh or for the
> > >first time?
> >
> > Sure, and all those things fall into the category of "pleased me" --
> > because it is, deliberately, I think, a very broad category, one used
> > to seek agreement rather than to argue for the primacy of shock over
> > seeing afresh, or the like.
> >
>
>Switching to the reader's side of this question/equation, shouldn't
>we all read against our gravitation. I think that if I resist
>my predilections, I'll likely become better reader of poetry.
>I keep some books that I hate. I pick them up from time to
>time, with as much of an open mind as I can muster,  to try
>to love them or to at least to hate them more insightfully.
>
>There's a jazz anecdote that Miles Davis was once asked why he
>quit playing ballads...he answered, "Because I really love to play 
>ballads."
>Finnegan
>
>--part1_da.6d424c9.2d9a5580_boundary
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 
>FAMILY=
>=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/29/2004 
>9:35:2=
>0 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; 
>MARGIN-LEFT=
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Engage it.&nbsp; Transport 
>it.&=
>nbsp; Re-orient its consciousness.&nbsp; Occasionally<BR>
>&gt;to change it.&nbsp; Quicken it.&nbsp; Open doors for it.&nbsp; 
>Enlighten=
>, shock,<BR>
>&gt;surprise, lull momentarily.....<BR>
>&gt;Fill in every thing poetry has ever done for you.&nbsp; If it has 
>please=
>d<BR>
>&gt;you, has it not also profoundly angered you at times, sometimes 
>with<BR>
>&gt;righteous indignation at what it has made you see afresh or for the<BR>
>&gt;first time?<BR>
><BR>
>Sure, and all those things fall into the category of "pleased me" -- <BR>
>because it is, deliberately, I think, a very broad category, one used <BR>
>to seek agreement rather than to argue for the primacy of shock over <BR>
>seeing afresh, or the like.<BR>
></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
><BR>
>Switching to the reader's side of this question/equation, shouldn't <BR>
>we all read against our gravitation. I think that if I resist<BR>
>my predilections, I'll likely become better reader of poetry.<BR>
>I keep some books that I hate. I pick them up from time to <BR>
>time, with as much of an open mind as I can muster,&nbsp; to try <BR>
>to love them or to at least to hate them more insightfully. <BR>
><BR>
>There's a jazz anecdote that Miles Davis was once asked why he <BR>
>quit playing ballads...he answered, "Because I really love to play 
>ballads."=
><BR>
>Finnegan <BR>
></FONT></HTML>
>--part1_da.6d424c9.2d9a5580_boundary--
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest

_________________________________________________________________
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Mar 30 09:42:50 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:42:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New member welcome
References: <BAY10-F17BWF84KtG4700022350@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <016001c41665$46d6d990$cc737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

My antivirus has detected (and canceled) a virus in this mail, sorry Sheila,
you might try a virus scan, this link could do:
http://housecall.antivirus.com/housecall/start_corp.asp

it is free online. Take care, Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sheila black" <sheilafblack at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 4:34 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New member welcome


> I, too, am a new member and wanted to thank Jim for the welcome.  Also for
> the Cynthia Huntington poem.  On the notion of gravitation, I keep
returning
> to Keat's idea of negative capability--so briefly defined but so
> suggestive--as not only a call to resist the-too-easy-conclusion but also
> the too-easy-shape placed on experience by one's own aesthetic--the
ability
> to remain in aesthetic doubt, uncertainity perhaps?  Anyway, I'm glad to
be
> on the list.  Sheila




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Mar 30 09:50:03 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:50:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <022201c4164f$256fd510$6eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <406942CB.6052.951F70@localhost>

> > > > On 26 Mar 2004 at 16:22, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > > Would it be wrong to take photographs intended for an album
> > > > > you knew no one would look at but you?<
> > > >
> > > > But who said it was *wrong* to write just to please oneself,
> > > > Bob? I'm asking if it can be called "art".
> > >
> > On 27 Mar 2004 at 13:41, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > No, you asked, "What's the point?"  Okay, to be exact, I should
> > > have asked in return, "Would it be POINTLESS to take photographs
> > > intended for an album you knew no one would look at but you?" <
> >
> > No, of course not -- there are lots of reasons to keep a written or
> > photo journal for reasons that have nothing to do with trying to
> > make art. The question at hand, though, is whether making such a
> > journal is the same as making art.

On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I answered a direct question.  It was not about what art is.  That
> is a question you changed your original questions to ...<

I was under the impression that we were all talking about what 
constitutes art, and how we can tell. I'm sorry to hear that's not 
what you were talking about. What were you talking about?
 
> ... If
> > Hallmark called you tomorrow, Bob, enamored of your mathemaku and
> > offered you enormous amounts of money to coin them for their cards,
> > would you do it? And if it turned out that your mathemaku cards were
> > best-sellers would you equate that with excellence in poetry?
> 
On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> No.  It would make me think I might be composing junk ...<

So it appears that the criterion you use primarily, and peremptorily, 
to distinguish junk from non-junk in poetry is popularity or 
salability: the more popular or salable the more reliably you feel 
you can classify it as "junk". That appears to mean that the less 
popular, the less salable, any collection of words is, the more 
likely it is to be excellent -- is that your view?

> > I don't hold that it is only pleasing others with language that
> > makes poetry -- I'm pointing out that determinedly not pleasing
> > others with language doesn't make poetry, either.
> 
> I rather doubt that anyone has said or implied that.<

Well, it seems to me that the implication is clear, and is made 
clearer by your assertion that popularity is the clearest criterion 
for measuring "junk", since unpopularity is certainly, if it is 
nothing else, not pleasing others, and if popularity makes a poem 
"junk" then it is hard to see how that is not an implication that 
unpopularity makes a poem excellent, absent any other offered 
criteria.

> > The "they are human beings as I am" argument has a number of flaws,
> > principle among which is that there is no evidence that being a
> > human being confers on any individual, nor on every individual, the
> > ability to distinguish excellence from mediocrity in poetry -- nor
> > to enjoy the distinction if they make it, nor even to enjoy poetry
> > itself whether excellent, mediocre, or bad.
> 
On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> That they are human beings means they may well have the same tastes as
> I and therefore enjoy my poems for the same reasons I do.<

But Bob -- this is exactly the problem with the "because they are 
human beings" argument that I pointed out before! If "because they 
are human beings" means "they have the same tastes in poetry as Bob 
Grumman", then what price popularity means a poem is "junk"? If it is 
in fact true that human beings have the same poetic tastes as Bob 
Grumman because he and they are all human beings, then how can Bob 
Grumman's poems fail to be popular? And, being popular, how can they 
fail to be "junk"? You can't have it both ways, Bob -- it can't be 
true at one and the  same time that people enjoy your excellent poems 
merely because they are human beings and that your excellent poems, 
enjoyed by those human beings, is "junk". I hope you'll clarify this 
conundrum.

> > > > What's the basis for calling some made thing "an art object" if
> > > > only the maker ever sees it, unusual cases like "stranded on a
> > > > desert island", and the like, aside?
> 
On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> The same as calling some made thing an automobile even if no one ever
> uses it and only its maker sees it--because it has the attributes of
> what it is named.<

This is preposterous on the face of it. If you make a shape in the 
sand that looks like Ford Mustang and you call it "an automobile" 
you're saying that merely calling that pile of shaped sand "an 
automobile" *makes* it a real automobile? That can't be right. That's 
the same problem as asking how many legs a dog has if you call a tail 
a leg -- the dog still has only four legs because calling a tail a 
leg doesn't make it one.

> Your understanding of what you term, "taxonomy," is different from
> mine, as you have sufficiently shown without the need to show it yet
> again.  Nor am I interested in going over my own views of the subject
> yet again... <

I wish you would, though, because I'm still interested in the points 
at which you change from using the term metaphorically to 
scientifically, and back again. I'm trying to understand whether 
those changes are deliberate or accidental.

> > Nothing useful is art?
> > Are you saying that the expression of beauty is not useful?
> 
> Gosh, let me clarify: "I will say that, for me, an art object is a
> clearly non-utilitarian object whose MAIN aim, to most observers, is
> to express beauty in some form."<

all A are B -- all art objects are non-utilitarian
C is A -- the expression of beauty is the main aim of art objects
C is B  -- the expression of beauty is non-utilitarian.

Now we have to find out what you mean by "non-utilitarian" -- do you 
mean art objects and the expression of beauty are "non-useful" or 
"useless" or do you mean that art objects and the expression of 
beauty do not, on balance, contribute more happiness to more people 
than a lack of art objects or a lack of the expression of beauty 
would?

> > What I'm pointing out is that the improper use of such words, the
> > deliberate conflation of meanings, the knowing confusion of
> > connotation and denotation in order to try to make otherwise
> > unsupported claims, is pernicious.

On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Right, which is not at all intended to indicate any disrespect for
> anyone committing such acts.

Only if those people who commit such acts claim that committing such 
acts is an integral and essential part of their persons, characters, 
or personalities. But I don't think you do claim that, Bob -- I think 
you claim, like most other people, that confusion is bad and 
conflation is often a mistake. But I don't say that because you have 
often uttered confused claims or have conflated meanings that you are 
bad or that you are a mistake. Quite the contrary -- you're a good 
guy, who I think is mistaken in some of your views, and who in my 
opinion uses some bad tactics to try to put those mistaken views 
forward.

But calling some of your views mistaken is very different from saying 
that you are a mistake; saying some of your tactics are bad is very 
different from saying that you are bad; and that's the difference 
between disagreeing with your views and making a personal attack or 
name-calling you.





From smadoff at sprynet.com  Tue Mar 30 10:44:43 2004
From: smadoff at sprynet.com (Steven Madoff)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:44:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2054 - 5 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200403301430.i2UEU3XE023236@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <002d01c4166d$f24b1630$6601a8c0@Micron>

I'm being told that the list serve is coming with a virus. You should
check right away.

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:30 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2054 - 5 msgs





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar 30 11:44:45 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:44:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
References: <406942CB.6052.951F70@localhost>
Message-ID: <02df01c41676$51121cb0$6eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > I answered a direct question.  It was not about what art is.  That
> > is a question you changed your original questions to ...<
>
> I was under the impression that we were all talking about what
> constitutes art, and how we can tell. I'm sorry to hear that's not
> what you were talking about. What were you talking about?

As I said, I was answering a direct question.  It was one you asked in
response to something Jeff Newberry wrote 26 March:

Him: ... I know
> > > that we don't write to please other (I know that I
> > > don't), but shouldn't a poet keep in mind the fact
> > > that *someone* will read her work?<
> >
You:  Well, if you don't write to please others, why do you write? I mean,
> > what's the point? Why not just recite to yourself? And quietly!

"I mean, what's the point?"  That's the question I was responding to.

> > ... If
> > > Hallmark called you tomorrow, Bob, enamored of your mathemaku and
> > > offered you enormous amounts of money to coin them for their cards,
> > > would you do it? And if it turned out that your mathemaku cards were
> > > best-sellers would you equate that with excellence in poetry?
> >
> On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > No.  It would make me think I might be composing junk ...<
>
> So it appears that the criterion you use primarily, and peremptorily,
> to distinguish junk from non-junk in poetry is popularity or
> salability: the more popular or salable the more reliably you feel
> you can classify it as "junk". That appears to mean that the less
> popular, the less salable, any collection of words is, the more
> likely it is to be excellent -- is that your view?

No.

> > > I don't hold that it is only pleasing others with language that
> > > makes poetry -- I'm pointing out that determinedly not pleasing
> > > others with language doesn't make poetry, either.
> >
> > I rather doubt that anyone has said or implied that.<
>
> Well, it seems to me that the implication is clear, and is made
> clearer by your assertion that popularity is the clearest criterion
> for measuring "junk", since unpopularity is certainly, if it is
> nothing else, not pleasing others, and if popularity makes a poem
> "junk" then it is hard to see how that is not an implication that
> unpopularity makes a poem excellent, absent any other offered
> criteria.
>
> > > The "they are human beings as I am" argument has a number of flaws,
> > > principle among which is that there is no evidence that being a
> > > human being confers on any individual, nor on every individual, the
> > > ability to distinguish excellence from mediocrity in poetry -- nor
> > > to enjoy the distinction if they make it, nor even to enjoy poetry
> > > itself whether excellent, mediocre, or bad.
> >
> On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > That they are human beings means they may well have the same tastes as
> > I and therefore enjoy my poems for the same reasons I do.<
>
> But Bob -- this is exactly the problem with the "because they are
> human beings" argument that I pointed out before! If "because they
> are human beings" means "they have the same tastes in poetry as Bob
> Grumman", then what price popularity means a poem is "junk"? If it is
> in fact true that human beings have the same poetic tastes as Bob
> Grumman because he and they are all human beings, then how can Bob
> Grumman's poems fail to be popular? And, being popular, how can they
> fail to be "junk"? You can't have it both ways, Bob -- it can't be
> true at one and the  same time that people enjoy your excellent poems
> merely because they are human beings and that your excellent poems,
> enjoyed by those human beings, is "junk". I hope you'll clarify this
> conundrum.

I said they MAY WELL have the same tastes as I; I should have said SOME OF
THEM my well have SOME tastes in common with me.

> > > > > What's the basis for calling some made thing "an art object" if
> > > > > only the maker ever sees it, unusual cases like "stranded on a
> > > > > desert island", and the like, aside?
> >
> On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > The same as calling some made thing an automobile even if no one ever
> > uses it and only its maker sees it--because it has the attributes of
> > what it is named.<
>
> This is preposterous on the face of it. If you make a shape in the
> sand that looks like Ford Mustang and you call it "an automobile"
> you're saying that merely calling that pile of shaped sand "an
> automobile" *makes* it a real automobile? That can't be right. That's
> the same problem as asking how many legs a dog has if you call a tail
> a leg -- the dog still has only four legs because calling a tail a
> leg doesn't make it one.

A sand sculpture of an automobile would have very few attributes of an
automobile.  But, because of the way you deal with ideas (which I can't
describe here because it would upset our moderator), I have to restate what
I said: "The same as calling some made thing an automobile even if no one
ever uses it and only its maker sees it--because it has ALL the SIGNIFICANT
attributes of what it is named."

> > Your understanding of what you term, "taxonomy," is different from
> > mine, as you have sufficiently shown without the need to show it yet
> > again.  Nor am I interested in going over my own views of the subject
> > yet again... <
>
> I wish you would, though, because I'm still interested in the points
> at which you change from using the term metaphorically to
> scientifically, and back again. I'm trying to understand whether
> those changes are deliberate or accidental.
>
> > > Nothing useful is art?
> > > Are you saying that the expression of beauty is not useful?
> >
> > Gosh, let me clarify: "I will say that, for me, an art object is a
> > clearly non-utilitarian object whose MAIN aim, to most observers, is
> > to express beauty in some form."<
>
> all A are B -- all art objects are non-utilitarian
> C is A -- the expression of beauty is the main aim of art objects
> C is B  -- the expression of beauty is non-utilitarian.

My gosh, you've caught me again, Marcus.  So I must correct myself yet
again: "I will say that, for me, an art object is a clearly non-utilitarian
object, BY WHICH I MEAN AN OBJECT NOT DIRECTLY AND PRINCIPALLY INTENDED TO
SATISFY WHAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD CONSIDER A UTILITARIAN NEED SUCH AS A
SOMETHING TO HOLD LIQUID THAT A PERSON CAN DRINK FROM whose MAIN aim, to
most observers, is to express beauty in some form."

> Now we have to find out what you mean by "non-utilitarian" -- do you
> mean art objects and the expression of beauty are "non-useful" or
> "useless" or do you mean that art objects and the expression of
> beauty do not, on balance, contribute more happiness to more people
> than a lack of art objects or a lack of the expression of beauty
> would?

One is primarily for one purpose, the other for a different one.

Snip of material having nothing to do with poetry.

--Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Mar 30 11:52:52 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:52:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
In-Reply-To: <02df01c41676$51121cb0$6eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40695F94.24404.1059257@localhost>

> > On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> ... But, because of the way you deal with ideas (which I
> can't describe here because it would upset our moderator) ...<

Goodbye, Bob. Have a nice life.

Marcus





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Mar 30 12:04:58 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:04:58 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
Message-ID: <ea.4aad2d2b.2d9b02ba@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/30/2004 10:53:39 AM Central Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes: 
> >>On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >... But, because of the way you deal with ideas (which I
> >can't describe here because it would upset our moderator) ...<
> 
> Goodbye, Bob. Have a nice life.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
The End of the Affair . . . (to be continued)
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From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Tue Mar 30 12:27:23 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (gmguddi)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:27:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
In-Reply-To: <BC8E61F7.7B1D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040330110711.01e2a020@mail.ilstu.edu>

I attended 3 panels Thursday afternoon: one on writing and community 
service; one on writing and social justice; and the last a moving tribute 
to Gwendolyn Brooks.  I had wanted to meet Haki Madhubuti at the final two 
but he failed to show. The panel on writing and social justice was 
absolutely great -- and packed.

I also wanted to attend the Artaud panel Friday morning and the panel about 
what translation gives to a poet, if only to hang out with Pierre Joris and 
show him my new fountain pens, but after Thursday's panels everyone at 6 
o'clock began to flood the bar on the mezzanine with cigarettes and 
sparkling teeth and I don't drink or smoke anymore and just stood there and 
thought "What the f*ck am I doing here?" and then I left the conference, 
which was easy enough because Illinois State University is only 2 hours 
south of Chicago, so I drove back that evening in a dusty rainshower. The 
weather was lovely and I think it's true that conferences are a crazy waste 
of cash. But they can be fun if you're not sad to begin with, which I was.

The book fair wasn't as exciting for me this year for some reason, but I 
got to meet some editors and talk briefly with a few old friends before I 
left.

I commend the people who convened the conferences on writing and social 
justice and community service: it was a nice reminder, to me anyway, that I 
not only write things for others, but that I'm also an author for others. 
Too much of how I was "trained" implied that a great part of our pursuits 
will perforce be self-aggrandizing. So I was thankful for those panelists. 
And I drafted yesterday a letter of interest to a maximum security prison 
in Pontiac, Illinois, so will soon, all goes well, be helping the inmates 
there with words within a few months.

Gabe
__________________

Gabriel Gudding
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
gmguddi at ilstu.edu
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 14:20:21 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:20:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
Message-ID: <145.25b3a2db.2d9b2275@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/30/04 7:53:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes:

> and the Lyric 
>  Landscape people took on the Sublime intelligently enough, though that 
>  series is getting close to self-parody by now.

Wendy, can you "sketch out" that term/concept a bit...I saw an
art exhibit at Trinity College last year called 'Lyrical Landscape', 
but I not sure how that term applies to poetry.
Finnegan


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar 30 14:20:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:20:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright
References: <ea.4aad2d2b.2d9b02ba@cs.com>
Message-ID: <038501c4168c$04ddbe10$6eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>>On 30 Mar 2004 at 7:04, Bob Grumman wrote:
>... But, because of the way you deal with ideas (which I
>can't describe here because it would upset our moderator) ...<

Goodbye, Bob. Have a nice life.

Marcus



  The End of the Affair . . . (to be continued) 

  Nope, we's through forever this time.  Well, unless he takes to responding to my blog, now up to ten hits a day, only four of which are me.  But then I'd be in charge, not Jim, so he'd be risking . . . name-calling!

  --Bob G.
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From Cadaly at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 16:54:44 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:54:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP?
Message-ID: <33.45f681a6.2d9b46a4@aol.com>

I was there, and will be putting my panel comments (I was an a reviewing 
panel of my own design and an online communities panel) on my blog 
(http://cadaly.blogspot.com) as soon as I finish itemizing taxes & preparing for the Arizona 
Festival of the Book (April 2).  

I must say, I did not like the Palm Springs AWP nearly as much, and figure 
that the incredible city and people of Chicago (ok, my family is from there) are 
responsible for the success.  I heard that 200 Chicagoans who like to write 
just "signed up" on a whim...

I am looking for panelists for a film & poetry or women & film & poetry panel 
for Vancouver and trying to think up another panel to pitch.

Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 16:56:48 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:56:48 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
References: <BC8E61F7.7B1D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4069ED1F.B4D6F828@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:
> 
(among other things)

> 
> 
> Among other items I picked up (and hereby recommend) a collaboration by two
> very familiar names, Jim Cervantes & Hal Johnson, *Changing Subjects* (Red
> Hen Press).  This consists of a "spontaneous collaboration" of a series of
> poems posted to a listserv a while back.  A very interesting poetic
> cyberconversation.

Yeah, not a bad read ;-)  I'll be reading from it, along with Jim
Simmerman playing Hal, at the Northern Arizona Book Festival, April 16 -
18 (http://www.flagstaffcentral.com/bookfest/)  Not during the whole
thing, of course; the gig is on Sat., April 17th.

- Jim


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Mar 30 17:28:55 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:28:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
In-Reply-To: <145.25b3a2db.2d9b2275@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A14B554A-8299-11D8-8ECB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 02:20 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Wendy, can you "sketch out" that term/concept a bit...I saw an
> art exhibit at Trinity College last year called 'Lyrical Landscape',
> but I not sure how that term applies to poetry.

I don't think there's anything that rigorous about it, Jim.  The same 
four poets--David Baker, Linda Gregerson, Stan Plumly, and Ann 
Townsend--have been doing AWP panels  on lyric modes and forms under 
the title "Lyric Landscapes" for several years now.

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 17:53:14 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:53:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <107.2df15f55.2d9b545a@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/30/04 6:46:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Djoysgrape at aol.com writes:

> Many great poems have 
>  been written because the writer has "written against his gravitation."   
>  
Doug, yes, and in keeping with my desultory reading habits, I found a 
25-cent paperback in a stall at the front of the grocery store last week: 
_Russian Formalist Criticism, Four Essays_.  I'm sure a number of you 
are familiar with the concept of "defamiliarization", but according 
Victor Skhlovsky ("Art as Technique" 1917) we should be frustrating 
our audience more. Making it harder and slower on them to make 
their ways through our poetry--
"The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms 
difficult,
to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the process
of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged."
&
"The language of poetry, is, then, a difficult, roughened, impeded
language."

I love that "impeded" part. So the our readers must steel themselves
for hard and slow ride through our poems. 
Finnegan




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 17:55:56 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:55:56 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
Message-ID: <1ce.1d57a8c3.2d9b54fc@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/30/04 5:29:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes:

> I don't think there's anything that rigorous about it, Jim.  The same 
>  four poets--David Baker, Linda Gregerson, Stan Plumly, and Ann 
>  Townsend--have been doing AWP panels  on lyric modes and forms under 
>  the title "Lyric Landscapes" for several years now.
>  
Do you know if they've published any articles or essay related
to this rubric they've chosen? 
Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 18:01:54 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:01:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet gets political
Message-ID: <108.2dce7ab1.2d9b5662@aol.com>

Poet gets political
By Joanna Smith, The Link
Published: Tuesday, March 9, 2004 
Article Tools: Page 1 of 2 

MONTREAL (CUP) - She pauses from her sophisticated, multilingual vocabulary 
and takes a deep breath. When she opens her mouth again, her speech is song. 
She sends a high-pitched, operatic poem through the telephone earpiece into 
Montral, where she would later perform at the third spoken-word Festival Voix 
d'Amrique on February 16th. 

She is Anne Waldman: poet, performer, professor, political activist, Muse. 
Her life reads like a list of '60s and '70s American literary cool: child of 
Greenwich Village, Berkeley's poetry conference, second-generation Beat poet 
associated with the New York school; Allen Ginsberg, Bob Dylan, Frank O'Hara, 
Diane di Prima. She directed the St. Mark's in-the-Bowery Poetry Project in Lower 
East Side New York from 1968 to 1978. She founded the Jack Kerouac School of 
Disembodied Poetics with Ginsberg in 1974 at the Naropa Institute, an 
experimental Buddhist university in Boulder, Colorado, and has published over 30 books 
and chapbooks, most recently In the Room of Never Grieve: New and Selected 
Poems 1985-2003 (Coffee House Press, 2003). 

"I let the words come to me and my job is to sort of actualize the language," 
says Waldman. She uses the Sanskrit word mantra, meaning words can be deeds 
and the Thai word tibot, comparing writing to striking a gong and activating 
the words to describe her creative process. 

Waldman thinks words can activate the world. This week, Waldman and other 
poets will stage an anti-war protest outside the New York Public Library. They 
will read Iraqi poetry, trying to catch the attention of passersby in the ebb 
and flow of Manhattan, she says. 

Such literary protests have precedents, and she mentions Rocky Flats, a 
former nuclear weapons plant just south of Boulder now in the process of cleaning 
up. The Jack Kerouac School was involved in protests leading to it closure. 

"It took something like 20 years to shut that place down. People really just 
stuck with it," she says. "I do think the walls can shake if the language is 
right."

And making language right is part of her job. "We've seen language used as a 
weapon, so we need to take it back," she says of the euphemisms she finds in 
government policies. She denounces the Bush's Clear Skies program for abusing 
language to hide the truth.

"There's so much blood on the hands of this government. Artists have to take 
it on, make it visible," Waldman says of the war in Iraq. "Can you have art 
after Auschwitz? I think you have to. After so much suffering, can we stop and 
go dumb?" 

She praises Ginsberg's legacy of uniting poetry and activism, and tries to 
pass it on to her students. 

"I encourage my students to get things started on the outside before they get 
locked into career poetry." 

Waldman's own career remains unfinished. She wants to establish a free 
university with friend and poet Ammiel Alcalay. They would invite poets to volunteer 
and teach, keeping the balance between a system of funding and poetic 
innovation. 

"I'd love to do a whole expository piece on how my pieces should be done," 
says Waldman, who sometimes includes short reading instructions in her books 
above certain poems. "But room should be left for improvisation." 

She speaks enthusiastically of today's poetic communities, rolling a list off 
her tongue that includes Montreal, Vienna, Prague, Venice, the continued St. 
Mark's Poetry Project and the Internet. 

She is excited about her son's work as well. Ambrose, 23, collaborated with 
her on the companion CD for In the Room of Never Grieve. 

"The larger thing is to keep the world safe for poetry," says Waldman, 
switching back into activist gear when asked where the art is headed today. "We 
might just be there at the end of time, ranting and raving, but we have to keep 
doing it, I think."


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Mar 30 18:19:34 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:19:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
In-Reply-To: <1ce.1d57a8c3.2d9b54fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B4997EA4-82A0-11D8-8ECB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 05:55 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/30/04 5:29:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wjbat at conncoll.edu writes:
>
>> I don't think there's anything that rigorous about it, Jim.  The same
>>  four poets--David Baker, Linda Gregerson, Stan Plumly, and Ann
>>  Townsend--have been doing AWP panels  on lyric modes and forms under
>>  the title "Lyric Landscapes" for several years now.
>>
> Do you know if they've published any articles or essay related
> to this rubric they've chosen?

Couldn't tell you.  I'm sure they've all published essays from their 
panel presentations. I don't recall any effort to define or explore the 
title, but I haven't been to every panel they've done.

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu


                                               Yogash 
citta-vrtti-nirodhah.
Yoga is the cessation of compulsive functions of mind.
--Patanjali, Yoga Sutra



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 18:22:29 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:22:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP
In-Reply-To: <BC8E61F7.7B1D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIECOIIAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Lynda and I got to Chicago on Wednesday, much too early really as far as
AWP (Alotta Weird People?) was concerned, but had time to wander
far enough afield to find a Chicago Symphony Orchestra concert scheduled
for Thursday night that put thoughts of Dana Gioia far out to sea. Bought
a couple tickets, made dinner reservations for four at Russian Tea Time
(slightly to the right of Orchestra Hall--nowadays called Symphony Center?)
the next evening at six (figuring we'd find some other two to go with us) had
a bite to eat, and retired to our 13th floor chambers to recuperate from our
overland journey by cat through the wilds of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio,
and, yes, Indiana.

Next morning, called Jim Cervantes and Ellie and demanded they get up and
go to breakfast with us. Nah, Jim's up at four no matter what the time
zone--but we did have breakfast with them and talked them into dining a la
Russe with us. After breakfast, Lynda and I tried to attend a 10:30 panel (The
Poet and Political Responsibility) but couldn't get near the door even. So, we did
the Bookfair, once over lightly. We did, though, make one at one (a panel
on Fiction by Collage, where four or five presenters read papers that were
so coherent and well-organized that the most interesting question afterwards
was something like "Why did all of you treat such an interesting and untraditional
form of fiction in such a linear, traditional way?"

After dinner with Jim and Ellie (our most extravagent meal of the trip), Lynda
and I perched ourselves high in the gallery, where I'd spent many happy evenings
way back in the early sixties, and gave ourselves over to the CSO, to Franck,
Chausson, and Prokofiev.

On Friday, having learned our lesson the day before, Lynda and I got ourselves
seats for the Artaud "Poetics of Cruelty" panel a good twenty-five minutes before
its nine o'clock start time. So, natch, at nine the panel was postponed until
one, which I couldn't make because Jim C. and I were signing copies of
*Changing the Subject* at the Red Hen Press table around that time.

At six, eight of us squeezed into a booth at The Big Downtown and, when I
asked for a report on Gioia's keynote speech found that none of the eight
of us had attended, though one was able to give a second-hand report, which
was pretty much the same as David G's.

The rest of the evening was given to the Fiction Collective 2's anniversary
reading at a books and bar sort of place a few blocks south on Michigan.
Lynda (her FC2 book is due out next spring) read first, and let me tell you
is a hard act to follow, as the next twenty or thirty readers (just kidding,
there were only fifteen or sixteen) soon found out.

Saturday, for us, was check-out day, so we emptied our room by ten or so
and schlepped everything over to the garage across Wabash St., where our
little Honda had been stabled. After lunch we indulged in one last panel
(The Avant Garde in the Classroom). And then we were off--well, almost
off. Climbing into the car, I found I was missing a credit card, and--miracle
of miracle--figured out where I must have left it, dashed back to the Palmer
House, retrieved it, and then dashed back to the car where Lynda was
waiting.

Saturday evening and Sunday we spent with the kids and their kids down
in Frankfort, Illinois, and hit the road again on Monday. Sunday we all
took the kids to one of those children's farms, where kids get acquainted
with animals. No one seemed to find it strange that along the wall opposite
to the pens where the animals were kept were giant, colorful posters
displaying and explaining various cuts of meat.

Chicago weather was variable--cool to warm to blowy--mostly with
that high ceiling of clouds I remember hanging there month after month
during the springtimes of my Chicago years.

I found it strange that the elevators at The Parker House (no, I won't tell
you the story about the elevator guy and the MLA professors) didn't
stop at the fifth floor, and that the doors in the stairwells wouldn't open
on the fifth floor.

I also found it strange that no one else seemed to find it strange that
The Parker House had a thirteenth floor. But, hey, maybe it's just me.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html



{    Yesterday I returned from the AWP conference in Chicago, which was one of
{    the biggest ever.  Over 4000 in attendance, I heard, and it sure seemed so.
{    I was physically unable to wedge myself into a couple sessions that were
{    overstufffed--among them a panel on which I had hoped to hear Bob Hicok
{    read.  I believe the fire marshall even shut down a couple sessions for
{    dangerous overcrowding.
{
{    Since the nature of this beast is that no one can attend anything close to
{    all the events, I'd love to hear others' reports on the poetry portions of
{    the show.  I missed any number of cool-sounding events, myself.
{
{    Highlights for me included a panel on Performing The Poem, which was
{    appropriately lively and well performed, featuring Molly Peacock, Timothy
{    Liu, Patricia Smith, and others.  My old teacher Madeline DeFrees gave a
{    nice reading at a Copper Canyon event, too--she's 80 million years old and
{    going strong.  Marvin Bell, at the same event, gave a reading in which he
{    seemed to be impersonating a dead man, not just reading about one.
{
{    I didn't much care for Dana Gioia's keynote address, in part because I've
{    heard him give a version of this speech before.  Heard wildly divergent
{    reviews of his talk from various folk, which I suppose goes to show that
{    Dana G remains a big lightning rod.
{
{    Essentially Gioia told his own life story, rags to poetry riches, followed
{    by some remarks on the great works he hopes to do at NEA. Well performed,
{    but rather old news, at least for me.
{
{    It *was* a trifle odd to have a keynoter who is famous for knocking the MFA
{    system speaking to a room full of little but MFAers, I thought.
{
{    If you're in Chicago any time soon I *highly* recommend the Rembrandt show
{    at the Art Institute.  It, too, was overcrowded, though.
{
{    At the book fair this year I filled a bag, as usual, with new book
{    purchases, trades, and freebies.  It will take a good while to make my way
{    through them all, and I'll probably not be able to resist posting a few
{    samples from time to time.
{
{    Among other items I picked up (and hereby recommend) a collaboration by two
{    very familiar names, Jim Cervantes & Hal Johnson, *Changing Subjects* (Red
{    Hen Press).  This consists of a "spontaneous collaboration" of a series of
{    poems posted to a listserv a while back.  A very interesting poetic
{    cyberconversation.
{
{    Cynthia Huntington's *The Radiant* (Four Way Books, 2003) was the other book
{    I went looking for first, having seen some poems I liked online.
{
{    Here's a sample.
{
{
{    Balch Hill
{
{
{    The birds were talking about me, passing ideas
{    back and forth along the branches.
{    They said I had been sick too long,
{    that I walked among the trees like a tall stranger,
{    and that where I put my foot was not certain.
{    They said there was a lightness of uncertainty, and a sliding,
{    as if my weight would not fall evenly on the earth,
{    that my head never moved to the left or to the right,
{    my chin held down, not looking up ? oh that one,
{    I heard them finally agree: she has been sick too long.
{
{    The birds were talking to hear themselves agree on anything,
{    to make a convention out of the rowdiness of June.
{    They noted unbirdlike intrusions,
{    to recall that they alone were birds.
{    I went on.  I was not tired.  I could walk forever,
{    if forever lived in that town, but the path ended
{    on a steep hillside where apple trees grew wild
{    and I could see four mountains, and the clock tower
{    rising above the college library, then the highway and the river,
{    and Vermont in the distance like another country.
{
{    The birds were talking to put me into the ground,
{    to sing me down from their sky.  They said that
{    a broken thing must be ended.  My feet bruised the fallen
{    apples under the leaves, and overhead the treetops
{    were circling in air.  But when I raised my head to answer them,
{    the wind blew in among the trees, and the flock scattered,
{
{    disappearing, becoming nothing, just specks on the sky,
{    distant, like ash blown up from a fire.  I stood and sniffed
{    the spice of the apples, under last year?s leaves,
{    their heavy fragrance sweet, like the sweetest taste of ruin.
{
{    --Cynthia Huntington
{
{
{
{
{    ====================================================
{    David Graham
{    grahamd at ripon.edu
{    Home Page:
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
{    Poetry Library:
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
{    ====================================================
{
{
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 19:34:42 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:34:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <cc.2a036bca.2d9b6c22@aol.com>

You're right.   Poetry should seduce and challenge simultaneously. It should 
also question itself, rewrite its own rules.   I'm thinking of Brecht, and the 
way he would lead the reader in the direction of his prejudices and then pull 
him up short.   

"Negative capability" may very well include the idea of interrupting 
conditioned responses in favor of a larger experience.   In any case, poetry is 
subversive to any kind of sentimentality or numbed out rhetoric.

D
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 20:39:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:39:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
Message-ID: <1d4.1dc9b69a.2d9b7b6f@aol.com>

C. P. Snow
There is always something wrong, if one is straining 
to make the commonplace incomprehensible.
The Two Cultures

--
Another view Shklovsky's thesis, esp. if pushed
to a fault.
Finnegan
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From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Mar 30 20:44:28 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:44:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
In-Reply-To: <4067A8F1.3C868644@ix.netcom.com>
References: <20040329045937.02D663966@sitemail.everyone.net> <4067A8F1.3C868644@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <F287F5A6-82B4-11D8-94D4-000393C29586@mac.com>

Horsefeathers.  Gioia writes free verse, too.

On Mar 28, 2004, at 11:42 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:

> Well. Bob, you know us 'free verse' types according to Dana Gioia 
> write that way because we CAN'T write in
> set rhyme schemes and meters or even approximate them. CP



From timothycole at sbcglobal.net  Tue Mar 30 21:19:27 2004
From: timothycole at sbcglobal.net (Timothy Cole)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:19:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
In-Reply-To: <107.2df15f55.2d9b545a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c416c6$98744970$210110ac@HPPAVILION>

Gee, Jim. Now I want to know what grocery store you go to. 

Talk about "take me back"! 

I read that Russian Formalist book almost 30 years ago (am I so old?)
during my first semester in graduate school. I was 16 when I first
started trying to wrap my mind around the question what makes a poem a
poem - long about the time I discovered Stevens, by the way - and every
5 years I seem to need to revisit it. The bit about "defamiliarization"
is on point - like Brecht's talk of "estrangement" - but it doesn't yet
help me understand why the work of such a diverse bunch of folks as
Cummings and Stevens, Wendell Berry and Kathleen Norris, Philip Levine
and T.S. Eliot, Dickinson and Snyder, Rilke and Frost, and yes, Charles
Wright, powerfully affect me, all in such different ways. Nor, for that
matter, why other "greats" leave me yawning, even after repeated
attempts to discover what it is that others see there.

Good to be back.

Tim


When the blackbird flew out of sight,
It marked the edge
Of one of many circles.
                                      -- w. stevens

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:53 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"

In a message dated 3/30/04 6:46:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Djoysgrape at aol.com writes:

> Many great poems have 
>  been written because the writer has "written against his
gravitation."   
>  
Doug, yes, and in keeping with my desultory reading habits, I found a 
25-cent paperback in a stall at the front of the grocery store last
week: 
_Russian Formalist Criticism, Four Essays_.  I'm sure a number of you 
are familiar with the concept of "defamiliarization", but according 
Victor Skhlovsky ("Art as Technique" 1917) we should be frustrating 
our audience more. Making it harder and slower on them to make 
their ways through our poetry--
"The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms 
difficult,
to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the process
of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged."
&
"The language of poetry, is, then, a difficult, roughened, impeded
language."

I love that "impeded" part. So the our readers must steel themselves
for hard and slow ride through our poems. 
Finnegan


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Tue Mar 30 21:32:03 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:32:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
Message-ID: <62.3c4ab069.2d9b87a3@aol.com>

oh well
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 31 06:24:51 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:24:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
References: <1d4.1dc9b69a.2d9b7b6f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006501c41712$ca1ee8d0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  C. P. Snow
  There is always something wrong, if one is straining 
  to make the commonplace incomprehensible.
  The Two Cultures

  --
  Another view Shklovsky's thesis, esp. if pushed
  to a fault.
  Finnegan


  Just to keep in shape as one who does nothing but be disagreeable in order to start fights I have to butt in here to say that there is quite a bit of difference between "straining to make the commonplace incomprehensible," as pseudo-scientists sometimes do, and "straining to avoid making the commonplace excessively and therefore boringly comprehensible," as so many Iowa Workshop Poets seem to do.  My impression is that no serious poet strains for incomprehensibility--except in rare cases when he wishes to deal with incomprehensibility as an artistic subject, which is perfectly legitimate.  It also seems to me that Philistines automatically assume that any artwork they can't understand is incomprehensible, and--further--that the creator of such a work is playing a malicious joke on them..

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 08:25:38 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:25:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prague International Poetry Festival
Message-ID: <1e9.1caa490b.2d9c20d2@aol.com>

The 1st PRAGUE INTERNATIONAL POETRY FESTIVAL, 16-22 May, 2004.

The Prague International Poetry Festival satisfies a long-standing need i=
n Prague for a major literary event with an organic Prague-base. For this=
 reason, the Festival will focus on local and regional poets, as well as =
poets from as far afield as India, Australia, Singapore, and the United S=
tates. The Festival has an entirely Prague-based organisation, with an in=
ternational orientation. The purpose of the festival is both to serve a l=
ong-standing need within the Prague literary community as well as to fost=
er cultural exchange between writers, editors, publishers and institution=
s beyond the mere spectacle of a "literary event." The Festival invites a=
 broad participation by all those concerned with the state of contemporar=
y poetry.

=20

Venues:=20

16, 18, 19 May, 20:00

Shakespeare and Sons Bookstore (Krymska 12, Praha 3: http://www.shakes.cz=
/)


19 May, 20:00

Globe Bookstore (Pstrossova 6, Praha 1: http://www.globebookstore.cz/)


21 May, 19:00

Baracnicka Rychta (Trziste 23, Mala Strana: http://www.baracnickarychta.c=
z/)

22 May, 19:00

Malostranska Beseda (Malostransk=E9 n=E1mest=ED 21, Mala Strana: http://w=
ww.mb.muzikus.cz/)


Further programme details can be found at www.geocities.com/praguepoetryf=
estival=20


Invited performers include: Gaby Bila-Gunther (Australia); Franz Josef Cz=
ernin, Fritz Widhalm (Austria); Huguette Vertongen (Belgium); Todd Swift =
(Canada); Vit Kremlicka, Vera Chase, Simon Safranek (Czech); Kai Nieminen=
, Anselm Hollo (Finland); Sandor Kanyadi, Paul Sohar (Hungary); Sudeep Se=
n (India); Trevor Joyce (Ireland); Tadeusz Pioro, Andrzej Sosnowski (Pola=
nd); Angelina Polonskaya (Russia); Vanessa Fernandez, Desmond Kon, Noelle=
 Perera (Singapore); Tomaz Salamun, Ales Debeljak (Slovenia); Drew Milne,=
 Rod Mengham (UK); Charles Bernstein (USA); Peter Sulej, Martin Solotruk =
(Slovakia); Nichita Danilov (Romania) ... The Festival will also feature =
Prague-based writers: Travis Jeppesen, Laura Conway, Phil Shoenfelt, Vinc=
ent Farnsworth, Gwendolyn Albert, Jeff Buehler, Louis Armand. Additional =
performances will be announced in the lead-up to the Festival.


Readings, with few exceptions, will be in Czech and English, as well as i=
n the poet=92s language of origin.


The PRAGUE INTERNATIONAL POETRY FESTIVAL would like to thank Literarni No=
viny, the Goethe-Institut Prag, The Finish Literature Information Service=
, Scandanivian House-Prague, the Austrian Forum, the Polish Institute, th=
e PLR, Twisted Spoon Press, ICS Charles University, the Slovenian Institu=
te, PB Tisk, Pravo and all those who have assisted the Festival for their=
 generous support.


For further information please contact: praguepoetryfestival at yahoo.co.uk

Editor=20

PLR (Prague Literary Review)=20
ART LITERATURE PHILOSOPHY THEATRE POLITICS=20
www.shakes.cz/plr review at shakes.cz=20
www.geocities.com/pragueliteraryreview=20
www.geocities.com/praguepoetryfestival=20


From cvoisine at nmsu.edu  Wed Mar 31 11:24:05 2004
From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:24:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
In-Reply-To: <000001c416c6$98744970$210110ac@HPPAVILION>
Message-ID: <BC9030A5.967C%cvoisine@nmsu.edu>

Dear All--

a question: I have been thinking that the Russian Formalist idea of
defamiliarization had to do more with that task of "make it new," not so
much as "make it hard." What do you all think?

C 

> Gee, Jim. Now I want to know what grocery store you go to.
> 
> Talk about "take me back"!
> 
> I read that Russian Formalist book almost 30 years ago (am I so old?)
> during my first semester in graduate school. I was 16 when I first
> started trying to wrap my mind around the question what makes a poem a
> poem - long about the time I discovered Stevens, by the way - and every
> 5 years I seem to need to revisit it. The bit about "defamiliarization"
> is on point - like Brecht's talk of "estrangement" - but it doesn't yet
> help me understand why the work of such a diverse bunch of folks as
> Cummings and Stevens, Wendell Berry and Kathleen Norris, Philip Levine
> and T.S. Eliot, Dickinson and Snyder, Rilke and Frost, and yes, Charles
> Wright, powerfully affect me, all in such different ways. Nor, for that
> matter, why other "greats" leave me yawning, even after repeated
> attempts to discover what it is that others see there.
> 
> Good to be back.
> 
> Tim
> 
> 
> When the blackbird flew out of sight,
> It marked the edge
> Of one of many circles.
> -- w. stevens
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:53 PM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
> 
> In a message dated 3/30/04 6:46:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> Djoysgrape at aol.com writes:
> 
>> Many great poems have
>> been written because the writer has "written against his
> gravitation."   
>> 
> Doug, yes, and in keeping with my desultory reading habits, I found a
> 25-cent paperback in a stall at the front of the grocery store last
> week: 
> _Russian Formalist Criticism, Four Essays_.  I'm sure a number of you
> are familiar with the concept of "defamiliarization", but according
> Victor Skhlovsky ("Art as Technique" 1917) we should be frustrating
> our audience more. Making it harder and slower on them to make
> their ways through our poetry--
> "The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms
> difficult,
> to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the process
> of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged."
> &
> "The language of poetry, is, then, a difficult, roughened, impeded
> language."
> 
> I love that "impeded" part. So the our readers must steel themselves
> for hard and slow ride through our poems.
> Finnegan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

--
Connie Voisine
Assistant Professor
Department of English
New Mexico State University
MSC 3E P.O. Box 30001
Las Cruces, NM 88003
(505) 646-2027
(505) 646-7725 (fax)
 




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Mar 31 10:30:32 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:30:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A26D@ariel.ripon.edu>

I love the idea of defamiliarization.  Here's how I attempted to put my arms
around it in a lecture on poetic texture at the Frost Place a number of
years ago, including my favorite quotation from Shklovsky---

One key idea is called "defamiliarization."  Victor Shklovsky, in his 1917
essay "Art As Technique," begins with this premise:  "If we start to examine
the general laws of perception, we see that as perception becomes habitual,
it becomes automatic."  Therefore, according to this theory, the more we get
used to a thing, the less clearly and firmly we perceive it.

In daily life, this can be a blessing:  if walking, eating, opening a door,
and so forth were not automatic activities, we would be in trouble.
Everyone's probably had the experience of driving a car, and suddenly
realizing that you can't remember the last two miles--during which you made
turns, avoided traffic, and generally kept out of trouble by force of habit.
We drive a car, to flesh out this one example, essentially by filtering out
a great deal of sensory data, and performing actions automatically.  Such a
state of affairs is beneficial--it frees our minds for more interesting and
productive things.

But art must operate differently.  Here's how Shklovsky puts it:


". . . art exists that one may recover the sensation of life; it exists to
make one feel things, to make the stone *stony*.  The purpose of art is to
impart the sensation of things as they are perceived and not as they are
known.  The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms
difficult, to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the
process of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged.
*Art is a way of experiencing the artfulness of an object; the object is not
important*."    

*To make the stone stony*:  I certainly won't argue that it's the whole
story (literary theorists can demolish the formalist argument quite
handily); but it seems a good description of how much poetry works.  It
*defamiliarizes*  (the Russian word, I'm told, literally means
"making-strange") --shows us strange things in our ordinary lives, things we
have grown blind to by repeated exposure.  There is genuine strangeness in
much of what we are accustomed to--a fact known to all satirists, for
instance, who work mainly by isolating and exaggerating aspects of reality."
-----------------------------------

Full text of this lecture is available, if anyone's interested, on my web
site:

http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/grahammakestone.html


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Connie Voisine
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, March 31, 2004 10:24 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
> 
> Dear All--
> 
> a question: I have been thinking that the Russian Formalist idea of
> defamiliarization had to do more with that task of "make it new," not so
> much as "make it hard." What do you all think?
> 
> C 


From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 10:39:15 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:39:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
Message-ID: <132368E1.20F7AAEE.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

Hi Connie: Doug Anderson here.  How are you?

D


From Cadaly at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 13:00:39 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:00:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Special Edition: SPD RECOMMENDS March 30
Message-ID: <162.2d823d4b.2d9c6147@aol.com>


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From sheilafblack at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 13:11:32 2004
From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:11:32 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2057 - 10 msgs
Message-ID: <BAY10-F76VZcMjmKOef00025f3a@hotmail.com>

Hi all--it strikes me that part of what defamiliarization does is allow you 
to bring experience closer by looking again (or in a new fashion) at what 
often gets glossed over or elided in conventional formulations, what we take 
for granted that we "know"  I don't think the point is necessarily to make 
something harder, but perhaps to just open up a new angle from which to 
examine it?  I'm thinking--I am the one who brought up negative 
capability--of how Keats (to cite one example) often seems to suspend what 
is "known"  in the arena of the poem to open up new sources of potential 
energy, potential angles of contemplation (e.g:  the relation between the 
living and the dead in "Ode on a Grecian Urn").  Also, I am hoping this 
message has no virus--(Thanks for the recommendation, Annie-- I did run 
Housecall on my computer and came up clean).  But if it does, please, please 
let me know.  Thanks.  Sheila


>From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2057 - 10 msgs
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:01:05 -0500
>
>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: "please love me" (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
>    2. Re: "please love me" (JforJames at aol.com)
>    3. Re: A Lost Ty Cobb Poem (Michael Snider)
>    4. RE: defamiliarization (Timothy Cole)
>    5. Re: defamiliarization (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
>    6. Re: "please love me" (Bob Grumman)
>    7. Prague International Poetry Festival (JforJames at aol.com)
>    8. Re: defamiliarization (Connie Voisine)
>    9. defamiliarization (Graham, David)
>   10. Re: defamiliarization (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>From: Djoysgrape at aol.com
>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:34:42 EST
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--part1_cc.2a036bca.2d9b6c22_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>You're right.   Poetry should seduce and challenge simultaneously. It 
>should
>also question itself, rewrite its own rules.   I'm thinking of Brecht, and 
>the
>way he would lead the reader in the direction of his prejudices and then 
>pull
>him up short.
>
>"Negative capability" may very well include the idea of interrupting
>conditioned responses in favor of a larger experience.   In any case, 
>poetry is
>subversive to any kind of sentimentality or numbed out rhetoric.
>
>D
>
>--part1_cc.2a036bca.2d9b6c22_boundary
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" 
>FACE=3D"Gen=
>eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">You're right.&nbsp;  Poetry should 
>sedu=
>ce and challenge simultaneously. It should also question itself, rewrite 
>its=
>  own rules.&nbsp;  I'm thinking of Brecht, and the way he would lead the 
>rea=
>der in the direction of his prejudices and then pull him up short.&nbsp;  
><B=
>R>
><BR>
>"Negative capability" may very well include the idea of interrupting 
>conditi=
>oned responses in favor of a larger experience.&nbsp;  In any case, poetry 
>i=
>s subversive to any kind of sentimentality or numbed out rhetoric.<BR>
><BR>
>D</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=
>=3D"2"></FONT></HTML>
>
>--part1_cc.2a036bca.2d9b6c22_boundary--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:39:59 EST
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--part1_1d4.1dc9b69a.2d9b7b6f_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>C. P. Snow
>There is always something wrong, if one is straining
>to make the commonplace incomprehensible.
>The Two Cultures
>
>--
>Another view Shklovsky's thesis, esp. if pushed
>to a fault.
>Finnegan
>
>--part1_1d4.1dc9b69a.2d9b7b6f_boundary
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 
>FAMILY=
>=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">C. P. Snow<BR>
>There is always something wrong, if one is straining <BR>
>to make the commonplace incomprehensible.<BR>
>The Two Cultures<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Another view Shklovsky's thesis, esp. if pushed<BR>
>to a fault.<BR>
>Finnegan<BR>
></FONT></HTML>
>--part1_1d4.1dc9b69a.2d9b7b6f_boundary--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Lost Ty Cobb Poem
>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:44:28 -0500
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Horsefeathers.  Gioia writes free verse, too.
>
>On Mar 28, 2004, at 11:42 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:
>
> > Well. Bob, you know us 'free verse' types according to Dana Gioia
> > write that way because we CAN'T write in
> > set rhyme schemes and meters or even approximate them. CP
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>From: "Timothy Cole" <timothycole at sbcglobal.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:19:27 -0500
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Gee, Jim. Now I want to know what grocery store you go to.
>
>Talk about "take me back"!
>
>I read that Russian Formalist book almost 30 years ago (am I so old?)
>during my first semester in graduate school. I was 16 when I first
>started trying to wrap my mind around the question what makes a poem a
>poem - long about the time I discovered Stevens, by the way - and every
>5 years I seem to need to revisit it. The bit about "defamiliarization"
>is on point - like Brecht's talk of "estrangement" - but it doesn't yet
>help me understand why the work of such a diverse bunch of folks as
>Cummings and Stevens, Wendell Berry and Kathleen Norris, Philip Levine
>and T.S. Eliot, Dickinson and Snyder, Rilke and Frost, and yes, Charles
>Wright, powerfully affect me, all in such different ways. Nor, for that
>matter, why other "greats" leave me yawning, even after repeated
>attempts to discover what it is that others see there.
>
>Good to be back.
>
>Tim
>
>
>When the blackbird flew out of sight,
>It marked the edge
>Of one of many circles.
>                                       -- w. stevens
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:53 PM
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
>
>In a message dated 3/30/04 6:46:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>Djoysgrape at aol.com writes:
>
> > Many great poems have
> >  been written because the writer has "written against his
>gravitation."
> >
>Doug, yes, and in keeping with my desultory reading habits, I found a
>25-cent paperback in a stall at the front of the grocery store last
>week:
>_Russian Formalist Criticism, Four Essays_.  I'm sure a number of you
>are familiar with the concept of "defamiliarization", but according
>Victor Skhlovsky ("Art as Technique" 1917) we should be frustrating
>our audience more. Making it harder and slower on them to make
>their ways through our poetry--
>"The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms
>difficult,
>to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the process
>of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged."
>&
>"The language of poetry, is, then, a difficult, roughened, impeded
>language."
>
>I love that "impeded" part. So the our readers must steel themselves
>for hard and slow ride through our poems.
>Finnegan
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
>From: Djoysgrape at aol.com
>Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:32:03 EST
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--part1_62.3c4ab069.2d9b87a3_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>oh well
>
>--part1_62.3c4ab069.2d9b87a3_boundary
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" 
>FACE=3D"Gen=
>eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">oh well</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" 
>F=
>ACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"></FONT></HTML>
>
>--part1_62.3c4ab069.2d9b87a3_boundary--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:24:51 -0500
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C416E8.DF94A120
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>
>   C. P. Snow
>   There is always something wrong, if one is straining=20
>   to make the commonplace incomprehensible.
>   The Two Cultures
>
>   --
>   Another view Shklovsky's thesis, esp. if pushed
>   to a fault.
>   Finnegan
>
>
>   Just to keep in shape as one who does nothing but be disagreeable in =
>order to start fights I have to butt in here to say that there is quite =
>a bit of difference between "straining to make the commonplace =
>incomprehensible," as pseudo-scientists sometimes do, and "straining to =
>avoid making the commonplace excessively and therefore boringly =
>comprehensible," as so many Iowa Workshop Poets seem to do.  My =
>impression is that no serious poet strains for =
>incomprehensibility--except in rare cases when he wishes to deal with =
>incomprehensibility as an artistic subject, which is perfectly =
>legitimate.  It also seems to me that Philistines automatically assume =
>that any artwork they can't understand is incomprehensible, =
>and--further--that the creator of such a work is playing a malicious =
>joke on them..
>
>   --Bob G.
>------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C416E8.DF94A120
>Content-Type: text/html;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>   <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
>
>   FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10">C. P. Snow<BR>There is always =
>something wrong,=20
>   if one is straining <BR>to make the commonplace =
>incomprehensible.<BR>The Two=20
>   Cultures<BR><BR>--<BR>Another view Shklovsky's thesis, esp. if =
>pushed<BR>to a=20
>   fault.<BR>Finnegan<BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
>FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"=20
>   PTSIZE=3D"10"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
>
>   FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"><FONT size=3D3>Just to keep in =
>shape as one who=20
>   does nothing but be disagreeable in order to start fights I have to =
>butt in=20
>   here to say that there is quite a bit of difference between "straining =
>to make=20
>   the commonplace incomprehensible," as pseudo-scientists sometimes do, =
>and=20
>   "straining to avoid making the commonplace excessively and therefore =
>boringly=20
>   comprehensible," as so many Iowa Workshop Poets seem to do.&nbsp; My=20
>   impression is that no serious poet strains for =
>incomprehensibility--except in=20
>   rare cases when he wishes to deal with incomprehensibility as an =
>artistic=20
>   subject, which is perfectly legitimate.&nbsp; It also seems to me that =
>
>   Philistines automatically assume that any artwork they can't =
>understand is=20
>   incomprehensible, and--further--that the creator of such a work is =
>playing a=20
>   malicious joke on them..</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
>
>   FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"><FONT =
>size=3D3></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 =
>
>   FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"><FONT size=3D3>--Bob=20
>G.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C416E8.DF94A120--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:25:38 EST
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Prague International Poetry Festival
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>The 1st PRAGUE INTERNATIONAL POETRY FESTIVAL, 16-22 May, 2004.
>
>The Prague International Poetry Festival satisfies a long-standing need i=
>n Prague for a major literary event with an organic Prague-base. For this=
>  reason, the Festival will focus on local and regional poets, as well as =
>poets from as far afield as India, Australia, Singapore, and the United S=
>tates. The Festival has an entirely Prague-based organisation, with an in=
>ternational orientation. The purpose of the festival is both to serve a l=
>ong-standing need within the Prague literary community as well as to fost=
>er cultural exchange between writers, editors, publishers and institution=
>s beyond the mere spectacle of a "literary event." The Festival invites a=
>  broad participation by all those concerned with the state of contemporar=
>y poetry.
>
>=20
>
>Venues:=20
>
>16, 18, 19 May, 20:00
>
>Shakespeare and Sons Bookstore (Krymska 12, Praha 3: http://www.shakes.cz=
>/)
>
>
>19 May, 20:00
>
>Globe Bookstore (Pstrossova 6, Praha 1: http://www.globebookstore.cz/)
>
>
>21 May, 19:00
>
>Baracnicka Rychta (Trziste 23, Mala Strana: http://www.baracnickarychta.c=
>z/)
>
>22 May, 19:00
>
>Malostranska Beseda (Malostransk=E9 n=E1mest=ED 21, Mala Strana: http://w=
>ww.mb.muzikus.cz/)
>
>
>Further programme details can be found at www.geocities.com/praguepoetryf=
>estival=20
>
>
>Invited performers include: Gaby Bila-Gunther (Australia); Franz Josef Cz=
>ernin, Fritz Widhalm (Austria); Huguette Vertongen (Belgium); Todd Swift =
>(Canada); Vit Kremlicka, Vera Chase, Simon Safranek (Czech); Kai Nieminen=
>, Anselm Hollo (Finland); Sandor Kanyadi, Paul Sohar (Hungary); Sudeep Se=
>n (India); Trevor Joyce (Ireland); Tadeusz Pioro, Andrzej Sosnowski (Pola=
>nd); Angelina Polonskaya (Russia); Vanessa Fernandez, Desmond Kon, Noelle=
>  Perera (Singapore); Tomaz Salamun, Ales Debeljak (Slovenia); Drew Milne,=
>  Rod Mengham (UK); Charles Bernstein (USA); Peter Sulej, Martin Solotruk =
>(Slovakia); Nichita Danilov (Romania) ... The Festival will also feature =
>Prague-based writers: Travis Jeppesen, Laura Conway, Phil Shoenfelt, Vinc=
>ent Farnsworth, Gwendolyn Albert, Jeff Buehler, Louis Armand. Additional =
>performances will be announced in the lead-up to the Festival.
>
>
>Readings, with few exceptions, will be in Czech and English, as well as i=
>n the poet=92s language of origin.
>
>
>The PRAGUE INTERNATIONAL POETRY FESTIVAL would like to thank Literarni No=
>viny, the Goethe-Institut Prag, The Finish Literature Information Service=
>, Scandanivian House-Prague, the Austrian Forum, the Polish Institute, th=
>e PLR, Twisted Spoon Press, ICS Charles University, the Slovenian Institu=
>te, PB Tisk, Pravo and all those who have assisted the Festival for their=
>  generous support.
>
>
>For further information please contact: praguepoetryfestival at yahoo.co.uk
>
>Editor=20
>
>PLR (Prague Literary Review)=20
>ART LITERATURE PHILOSOPHY THEATRE POLITICS=20
>www.shakes.cz/plr review at shakes.cz=20
>www.geocities.com/pragueliteraryreview=20
>www.geocities.com/praguepoetryfestival=20
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:24:05 -0800
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
>From: Connie Voisine <cvoisine at nmsu.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Dear All--
>
>a question: I have been thinking that the Russian Formalist idea of
>defamiliarization had to do more with that task of "make it new," not so
>much as "make it hard." What do you all think?
>
>C
>
> > Gee, Jim. Now I want to know what grocery store you go to.
> >
> > Talk about "take me back"!
> >
> > I read that Russian Formalist book almost 30 years ago (am I so old?)
> > during my first semester in graduate school. I was 16 when I first
> > started trying to wrap my mind around the question what makes a poem a
> > poem - long about the time I discovered Stevens, by the way - and every
> > 5 years I seem to need to revisit it. The bit about "defamiliarization"
> > is on point - like Brecht's talk of "estrangement" - but it doesn't yet
> > help me understand why the work of such a diverse bunch of folks as
> > Cummings and Stevens, Wendell Berry and Kathleen Norris, Philip Levine
> > and T.S. Eliot, Dickinson and Snyder, Rilke and Frost, and yes, Charles
> > Wright, powerfully affect me, all in such different ways. Nor, for that
> > matter, why other "greats" leave me yawning, even after repeated
> > attempts to discover what it is that others see there.
> >
> > Good to be back.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > When the blackbird flew out of sight,
> > It marked the edge
> > Of one of many circles.
> > -- w. stevens
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of JforJames at aol.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:53 PM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "please love me"
> >
> > In a message dated 3/30/04 6:46:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > Djoysgrape at aol.com writes:
> >
> >> Many great poems have
> >> been written because the writer has "written against his
> > gravitation."
> >>
> > Doug, yes, and in keeping with my desultory reading habits, I found a
> > 25-cent paperback in a stall at the front of the grocery store last
> > week:
> > _Russian Formalist Criticism, Four Essays_.  I'm sure a number of you
> > are familiar with the concept of "defamiliarization", but according
> > Victor Skhlovsky ("Art as Technique" 1917) we should be frustrating
> > our audience more. Making it harder and slower on them to make
> > their ways through our poetry--
> > "The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms
> > difficult,
> > to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the process
> > of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged."
> > &
> > "The language of poetry, is, then, a difficult, roughened, impeded
> > language."
> >
> > I love that "impeded" part. So the our readers must steel themselves
> > for hard and slow ride through our poems.
> > Finnegan
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>--
>Connie Voisine
>Assistant Professor
>Department of English
>New Mexico State University
>MSC 3E P.O. Box 30001
>Las Cruces, NM 88003
>(505) 646-2027
>(505) 646-7725 (fax)
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 9
>From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
>To: "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:30:32 -0600
>Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>I love the idea of defamiliarization.  Here's how I attempted to put my 
>arms
>around it in a lecture on poetic texture at the Frost Place a number of
>years ago, including my favorite quotation from Shklovsky---
>
>One key idea is called "defamiliarization."  Victor Shklovsky, in his 1917
>essay "Art As Technique," begins with this premise:  "If we start to 
>examine
>the general laws of perception, we see that as perception becomes habitual,
>it becomes automatic."  Therefore, according to this theory, the more we 
>get
>used to a thing, the less clearly and firmly we perceive it.
>
>In daily life, this can be a blessing:  if walking, eating, opening a door,
>and so forth were not automatic activities, we would be in trouble.
>Everyone's probably had the experience of driving a car, and suddenly
>realizing that you can't remember the last two miles--during which you made
>turns, avoided traffic, and generally kept out of trouble by force of 
>habit.
>We drive a car, to flesh out this one example, essentially by filtering out
>a great deal of sensory data, and performing actions automatically.  Such a
>state of affairs is beneficial--it frees our minds for more interesting and
>productive things.
>
>But art must operate differently.  Here's how Shklovsky puts it:
>
>
>". . . art exists that one may recover the sensation of life; it exists to
>make one feel things, to make the stone *stony*.  The purpose of art is to
>impart the sensation of things as they are perceived and not as they are
>known.  The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make forms
>difficult, to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the
>process of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged.
>*Art is a way of experiencing the artfulness of an object; the object is 
>not
>important*."
>
>*To make the stone stony*:  I certainly won't argue that it's the whole
>story (literary theorists can demolish the formalist argument quite
>handily); but it seems a good description of how much poetry works.  It
>*defamiliarizes*  (the Russian word, I'm told, literally means
>"making-strange") --shows us strange things in our ordinary lives, things 
>we
>have grown blind to by repeated exposure.  There is genuine strangeness in
>much of what we are accustomed to--a fact known to all satirists, for
>instance, who work mainly by isolating and exaggerating aspects of 
>reality."
>-----------------------------------
>
>Full text of this lecture is available, if anyone's interested, on my web
>site:
>
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/grahammakestone.html
>
>
>============================================
>David Graham
>Department of English, Ripon College
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
>Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>============================================
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: 	Connie Voisine
> > Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: 	Wednesday, March 31, 2004 10:24 AM
> > To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
> >
> > Dear All--
> >
> > a question: I have been thinking that the Russian Formalist idea of
> > defamiliarization had to do more with that task of "make it new," not so
> > much as "make it hard." What do you all think?
> >
> > C
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:39:15 -0500
>From: Djoysgrape at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Hi Connie: Doug Anderson here.  How are you?
>
>D
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest

_________________________________________________________________
Find a broadband plan that fits. Great local deals on high-speed Internet 
access. 
https://broadband.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/



From lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu  Wed Mar 31 15:24:39 2004
From: lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:24:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A26D@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0403311457470.23889-100000@andromeda.rutgers.edu>

Back in 1964 or 1965, my friend John Beecher read his poetry at the
University of Alabama, where I was teaching at the time.  Beecher told
me that Robert Frost had said to him at Breadloaf years earlier,
"Don't write 'nigger poetry' because that issue will pass and your
poetry will die with it.  Write about eternal truths."

Beecher (like his ancestors Henry Ward Beecher and Harriet Beecher
Stowe) did not take Frost's advice. I once had the privilege of
reading to an ACLU-Alabama bbq gathering the title poem of Beecher's
TO LIVE AND DIE IN DIXIE, a long narrative set in the 1930s, in which
racist thugs kill all but a few of the blacks and white organizing a
labor cooperative in rural Alabama.  A wizened old black man with a
full head of white hair had brought bbq goat to the occasion.  During
the reading, he remained transfixed, and at the end said, "It be so. I
was there.  I survived."

I believe this was one of the first gatherings sponsored by
ACLU-Alabama, which had only recently formed, with the help of a court
order which ended Alabama's ban against it.

Lutibelle of the Alabama Belles/Louie
http://www.andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/poetry.html




From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 15:41:04 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:41:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
Message-ID: <1de.1c20e3d8.2d9c86e0@aol.com>

great story: the goat event is certainly the DNA molecule of a poem: so is 
Mr. Frost's unfortunate remark.

D
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 31 16:46:28 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:46:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A26D@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00c301c41769$a1440150$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> I love the idea of defamiliarization.  Here's how I attempted to put my
arms
> around it in a lecture on poetic texture at the Frost Place a number of
> years ago, including my favorite quotation from Shklovsky---
>
> One key idea is called "defamiliarization."  Victor Shklovsky, in his 1917
> essay "Art As Technique," begins with this premise:  "If we start to
examine
> the general laws of perception, we see that as perception becomes
habitual,
> it becomes automatic."  Therefore, according to this theory, the more we
get
> used to a thing, the less clearly and firmly we perceive it.
>
> In daily life, this can be a blessing:  if walking, eating, opening a
door,
> and so forth were not automatic activities, we would be in trouble.
> Everyone's probably had the experience of driving a car, and suddenly
> realizing that you can't remember the last two miles--during which you
made
> turns, avoided traffic, and generally kept out of trouble by force of
habit.
> We drive a car, to flesh out this one example, essentially by filtering
out
> a great deal of sensory data, and performing actions automatically.  Such
a
> state of affairs is beneficial--it frees our minds for more interesting
and
> productive things.
>
> But art must operate differently.  Here's how Shklovsky puts it:
>
>
> ". . . art exists that one may recover the sensation of life; it exists to
> make one feel things, to make the stone *stony*.  The purpose of art is to
> impart the sensation of things as they are perceived and not as they are
> known.  The technique of art is to make objects "unfamiliar," to make
forms
> difficult, to increase the difficulty and length of perception because the
> process of perception is an aesthetic end in itself and must be prolonged.
> *Art is a way of experiencing the artfulness of an object; the object is
not
> important*."
>
> *To make the stone stony*:  I certainly won't argue that it's the whole
> story (literary theorists can demolish the formalist argument quite
> handily); but it seems a good description of how much poetry works.  It
> *defamiliarizes*  (the Russian word, I'm told, literally means
> "making-strange") --shows us strange things in our ordinary lives, things
we
> have grown blind to by repeated exposure.  There is genuine strangeness in
> much of what we are accustomed to--a fact known to all satirists, for
> instance, who work mainly by isolating and exaggerating aspects of
reality."
> -----------------------------------
>
> Full text of this lecture is available, if anyone's interested, on my web
> site:
>
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/grahammakestone.html
>
> > From: Connie Voisine
> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 10:24 AM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
> >
> > Dear All--
> >
> > a question: I have been thinking that the Russian Formalist idea of
> > defamiliarization had to do more with that task of "make it new," not so
> > much as "make it hard." What do you all think?
> >
> > C

Interesting stuff--and a little humbling to me, for I'd never heard of
Shklovsky (great name!), and have not been thinking highly of Professor
Graham of late (if our moderator will allow me to express that bit of
information), but Shklovsky seems to have anticipated just about my entire
theory of aesthetics forty or fifty years ahead of me.  That theory, in a
nutshell, is that a successful artwork is one that causes us to come upon
the familiar unexpectedly.  Which is another way of saying art should render
the familiar PARTLY unfamiliar, so that we can have the pleasure of
relearning it, with senses jarred fully alert to it by its initial
"incoherence."

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 31 17:14:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:14:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
References: <1de.1c20e3d8.2d9c86e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011901c4176d$7c991da0$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

What goat?  (I'm needling you, D, in hopes you'll remember the advice I previously gave you and you said you'd follow!)
As for Frost, he was just saying don't write sensationalist crap about passing "news"--which does not mean don't write about local events that you can hit 'eternal truths" from, as with "The Hired Man."

--Bob G.
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 17:19:16 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:19:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
Message-ID: <12c.3e6474a3.2d9c9de4@aol.com>

Yeah, well, Frost could have said it another way: it's a racist remark any 
way you cut it (I'm not a knee jerk politically corretoid, but that's pretty 
blatent).   I don't remember what I said about a goat.   That was in another 
country, and besides the goat is dead.   

D
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 17:26:07 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:26:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
Message-ID: <146.25c34bb0.2d9c9f7f@aol.com>

Now I remember about the goat.   Didn't you say something about an old black 
guy showing up at something with a goat?

D
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 31 17:49:16 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:49:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
References: <12c.3e6474a3.2d9c9de4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <018501c41772$67004cc0$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  Yeah, well, Frost could have said it another way: it's a racist remark any way you cut it (I'm not a knee jerk politically corretoid, but that's pretty blatent).  I don't remember what I said about a goat.  That was in another country, and besides the goat is dead.  

  D 

  I think I could defend it but don't believe this is the forum to try to.  Anyway, I do wish you would quote messages you're replying to sometimes.

  --self-appointed commissar of coherent connectication at New-Poetry Grumman
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 31 18:05:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:05:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
References: <146.25c34bb0.2d9c9f7f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <019e01c41774$aff6f8a0$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Now I remember about the goat.  Didn't you say something about an old black guy showing up at something with a goat?

  D 

  Not I.  But your response was to a post by Louie Crew.

  --Bob G.
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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 18:23:03 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:23:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
Message-ID: <6B076933.4CED79D8.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

THis is getting confusing.  


From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 18:24:31 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:24:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
Message-ID: <3BBF03EF.4D6F43E4.0B0A44C0@aol.com>

Working on it.  Now, who mentioned the goat?  

D


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar 31 19:46:55 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:46:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Engagement vs. Disengagement
References: <3BBF03EF.4D6F43E4.0B0A44C0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01d301c41782$d638f1e0$31efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Working on it.  Now, who mentioned the goat?  
> 
> D

I think only you, quoting Marlowe but with goat for wench.

James, is this better than Bales/Grumman?  At least it's short, right?

--Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 21:19:00 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:19:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] announce the launch of Rattapallax Films
Message-ID: <146.25c7925e.2d9cd614@aol.com>

Date:? ? Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:17:08 -0800
From:? ? Ram Devineni <rattapallax at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Rattapallax Films

Dear Friends: I am happy to announce the launch of
Rattapallax Films with two documentaries in
production. Rattapallax Films is committed to
producing poetic films and documentaries with a social
dimension to them. More information at
http://www.rattapallax.com/films.htm

SEPTEMBER 11 (working title) is the story of two
extraordinary and horrific events that changed two
countries on September 11. It is also about the
undocumented victims of both acts. It is also about
Mart=EDn Espada, an extraordinary poet and human rights
advocate, who wrote the definitive poem about 9/11 and
his journey to Santiago to participate in the 100th
Anniversary of Chile's greatest poet -- the late Pablo
Neruda.=20


MAKING HEARD THE BURIED CRY celebrates the power of
the spoken-word to bridge societies as it addresses
and challenges the global pandemic, HIV/AIDS. Three
esteemed and prolific American poets/writers of color;
Yusef Komunyakaa, Willie Perdomo, and Thomas Glave,
set out to witness the growing crisis in Ghana, West
Africa. Their visits with people on the front lines of
the epidemic highlight the social/political and human
implications of the disease. Their reflections and
writings seek to understand a complacency, denial, and
stigma that transcend culture, race, and nations.

Thank You,
Ram Devineni
Publishers/Producer


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Please send future emails to=20
devineni at rattapallax.com for press
devineni at dialoguepoetry.org for UN program


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Mar 31 22:16:38 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:16:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Madeline DeFrees
Message-ID: <BC90E5B5.7BAB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Here's a poem that Madeline DeFrees read last weekend in Chicago.


To Marilyn Monroe Whose Favorite Color Was White

When you wriggled onto the silver screen, Marilyn--
honey blonde or platinum--I was a nun. I
found you too late in your satin sleep. Now, three
decades past, I grieve from that ancient
cloister, the alabaster body, my beautiful buried
sister. Convent movies had to be clean as
bleach. Even your titles

                           went wrong: *All About Eve.
The Seven Year Itch. The Asphalt Jungle.
Some Like It Hot. How to Marry a Millionaire*.
Sex was a bullet I dodged, that shot on the subway
grate! Skirts lifted to seventh
heaven, you scared me all right, as you scared your
jealous husband.

                    Yet Joe was your friend in the end
as I hope to be. Bride at sixteen like you, given
another name, I was cast with the world's invisible
millionaire. We didn't know who we were,
Norma Jean, too young to care. Even now I imagine
you posed--a pin-up everywhere woman who did it
for 50 dollars. I resent

                            the photographer smirking
away with the loot: the generous milky
breasts and bottom, pout of a wounded child. Too bad
the bad life fate guaranteed you:
dashing absent father, unmarried mother who
had to be locked away. Say cheese, Marilyn. Open
those pearly gates,

                        come back with me to my former
marmoreal splendor: the lily-pad I escaped
that was never my passion. Ivory walls, skulls in
our heads all day. Snowy sheets and colorless
towels. Chaste linens framing the parchment faces.
It was color I missed most of all,
white sister. I hated the pallor. I want you to play

this part over. I want to barge in as your crazy
mother stealing the scene: capsules
washed down the drain in a lethal river. The beauty
startled awake in the last act from that
white sleep history promised.

-- Madeline DeFrees.  *Blue Dusk:  New & Selected Poems, 1951-2001*.  Copper
Canyon Press, 2001.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 22:31:33 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:31:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
Message-ID: <5a.2980e3fb.2d9ce715@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/30/2004 9:20:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
timothycole at sbcglobal.net writes:

> Now I want to know what grocery store you go to. 
> 
> Talk about "take me back"! 
> 
> I read that Russian Formalist book almost 30 years ago (am I so old?)
> during my first semester in graduate school. I was 16 when I first
> started trying to wrap my mind around the question what makes a poem a
> poem - long about the time I discovered Stevens, by the way - and every
> 5 years I seem to need to revisit it. The bit about "defamiliarization"
> is on point - like Brecht's talk of "estrangement" - but it doesn't yet
> help me understand why the work of such a diverse bunch of folks as
> Cummings and Stevens, Wendell Berry and Kathleen Norris, Philip Levine
> and T.S. Eliot, Dickinson and Snyder, Rilke and Frost, and yes, Charles
> Wright, powerfully affect me, all in such different ways. Nor, for that
> matter, why other "greats" leave me yawning, even after repeated
> attempts to discover what it is that others see there.
> 

Tim, it was just an ordinary Stop-n-Shop. People drop of boxes
of books there & the sale proceeds go to charity. You got to paw thru
a heap of Steele & Grisham to find any Shklovsky. 

I do like the concept of defamiliarization (ostranenie/making strange) 
a great deal. Like all that is theory I think it's fair to say his theory saw 

what was there; but to use it as a model for future texts might be 
problematic. 
Theory exposes then expounds and finally propounds. And the 
propounding generally leads to a depleted literature. 

Connie (who left New England for New Mexico for no good reason 
while we're still here) asked if the defamiliarization was more akin to 
"making it new." Ideally I think that's true...if the poem is making new,
the "it" will be unfamiliar, it will be a slog the first go through. 
Shklovsky 
talks about "roughening" the meter, introducing foreign words & vulgar 
speech, etc. So it does seem as though he's promoting a modernist 
aesthetic agenda which tilts more toward the suggestion that confounding 
the reader should be a matter of 'artistic intent'.

Of course what comes around..."Should the disordering of the rhythm
become a convention, it would be ineffective as a device for the 
roughening of language."...goes around. I think that word "device" and 
the "Technique"  (in the title) tip his hand...he's interested in the
phenomenal  aspects of art. He has little to say about the nomenal,
which almost by definition (& device) evades apprehension and defies 
articulation.
Finnegan




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From Djoysgrape at aol.com  Wed Mar 31 22:39:18 2004
From: Djoysgrape at aol.com (Djoysgrape at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:39:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization
Message-ID: <c4.8eac7aa.2d9ce8e6@aol.com>

Re: the continuing discussion of defamiliarization.   "Le vrai n'est pas le 
vraisonbable:" the truth is not plausible.   The truth (or, in the case of 
poetry, the true thing represented) is not "plausible" or reasonable.   It is, in 
fact, luminous.   I think poetry, and all art, is about "making it new," or 
making it "strange."   The example that Brecht gives is someone finally 
understanding that his mother once had a lover.   It breaks the truth out of its 
domesticated state.  
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 16 21:10:17 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:10:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob...
References: <200404161412.i3GEC3XE027463@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE20g2GxEEH5K00010250@hotmail.com>

Bob, I jumped too quickly.  Wilbur _to_ Ashbery as convenient borders of
mainstream poetry, I see that, though it leaves a lot of unmapped territory
for discussion, which you obviously know and sometimes lament.

It was the _phrase_, "Wilbur to Ashbery crowd" that confused me.

Secondly, about Stevens:

He wrote about imaginary toads in imaginary gardens, IMNSHO.

Without committing psychobiography on his insular life, enough to say that
he went so far over to Byzantium that any emotional response to his late
work (how often I find myself saying that about poets) is rejected by the
work itself, which _allows_ only an aesthetic/philosophical response, unless
one is autistic or schizoid.

Thanks for the Florida website tip, Hopkins lover.  There is a great I-MAX
film that goes to from the micro to the macro and back as well, from
electrons to galaxies.  Saw it once, blew my mind.

--CE

p.s. By erasing all the other stuff, I think comments will come through much
more cleanly.  Let's all cut everything in our responses except those
paragraphs we think germaine to our responses.  Literati need not always be
technodufuses. ;-)




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 16:40:48 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:40:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulling a Florsheim from my gullet....
References: <200404170251.i3H2p2XE000468@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE423aHLQhm3U000221f3@hotmail.com>

|
|
| Vacancy In The Park
|
| March . . . Someone has walked across the snow,
| Someone looking for he knows not what.
|
| It is like a boat that has pulled away
| From a shore at night and disappeared.
|
| It is like a guitar left on a table
| By a woman, who has forgotten it.
|
| It is like the feeling of a man
| Come back to see a certain house.
|
| The four winds blow through the rustic arbor,
| Under its mattresses of vines.
|
| --Wallace Stevens
|
| I feel he MADE imaginary toads in imaginary gardens and thus enlarged the
| world rather than repeated it journalistically the way accessible poets
| mostly do.
|

Yes, better said. --CE

|
| > Without committing psychobiography on his insular life, enough to say
that
| > he went so far over to Byzantium that any emotional response to his late
| > work (how often I find myself saying that about poets) is rejected by
the
| > work itself, which _allows_ only an aesthetic/philosophical response,
| unless
| > one is autistic or schizoid.
|
| Read the one about Penelope.  As for the others, I'd rather respond "only"
| aesthetically/philosophically to a poem than respond only what I call
| anthroceptually (peoplely).  But I think "Of Mere Being," from his last
| year, is as deeply human as any poem could be:
|
| The palm at the end of the mind,
| Beyond the last thought, rises
| In the bronze distance,
|
| A gold-feathered bird
| Sings in the palm, without human meaning,
| Without human feeling, a foreign song.
|
| You know then that it is not the reason
| That makes us happy or unhappy.
| The bird sings.  Its feathers shine.
|
| The palm stands on the edge of space.
| The wind moves slowly in the branches.
| The bird's fire-fangled feathers dangle down.
|
| --Bob G.
|
| Dear Bob and David,

Obviously I'm too ignorant of Stevens to comment intelligently.  This poem
Bob posted really blew me away, liked the other one I left above as well.
I've seen too much anthology Stevens, I'm afraid, Peter Quince and Blackbird
etc.  But these make me want to explore him, thinking I've shortchanged him
and myself by merely poetasting without delving.

|
| Tea at the Palaz of Hoon
|
| Not less because in purple I descended
| The western day through what you called
| The loneliest air, not less was I myself.
|
| What was the ointment sprinkled on my beard?
| What were the hymns that buzzed beside my ears?
| What was the sea whose tide swept through me there?
|
| Out of my mind the golden ointment rained,
| And my ears made the blowing hymns they heard.
| I was myself the compass of that sea:
|
| I was the world in which I walked, and what I saw
| Or heard or felt came not but from myself;
| And there I found myself more truly and more strange.
|
| --Wallace Stevens
|:
|
| I respond -- have always responded -- viscerally to his late work, which I
| experience as layered and complexly beautiful, his language of ideas a
supple
| and slippery shelter for the things of the real world housed beneath -- 
Stevens'
| inventions always breaking at the last moment into emotional components
| because he seems to understand the weight of those emotional pieces -- and
where
| they come from. Meaning our lives. I'm devastated to learn that this
response
| shows me to be autistic or schizoid.
|
| Jeffrey Levine

Dear Jeffrey,

Let me pull my shoe out of my mouth.  I happen to be a family doctor who
trained in psychiatry, and I tossed diagnostic terms off thoughtlessly in a
literary context.  I have never been able to _connect_ with Stevens, no
doubt my deficiency.  I repented above to Bob, repent again towards you.
Have not read enough Stevens, obviously, to comment intelligently, am much
encouraged by the fine and touching poems posted here.  I live to be
instructed.  My opinions run ahead.  I tried with Stevens, I mean I bought a
collection of his, just never got engaged...  I am an impatient reader
sometimes.  Love your irony, as I take it: "I'm devastated."  Right.  I'm
the embarrassed one.

--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 17 16:49:12 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:49:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A River Poem (in Response or Homage)
References: <200404171600.i3HG02XE003698@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE13uTGNjzm2Q000148a3@hotmail.com>

|
| One reason I like this list is that it's always nudging me to pull books
off
| my shelf, such as Stevens's *The Rock* poems, which I haven't looked at in
a
| while.  Once I get started it can be hard to stop.  For example:
|
|
| The River of Rivers In Connecticut
|
| There is a great river this side of Stygia,
| Before one comes to the first black cataracts
| And the trees that lack the intelligence of trees.
|
| In that river, far this side of Stygia.
| The mere flowing of the water is a gayety,
| Flashing and flashing in the sun. On its banks,
|
| No shadow walks. The river is fateful,
| Like the last one. But there is no ferryman.
| He could not bend against its propelling force.
|
| It is not to be seen beneath the appearances
| That tell of it. The steeple at Farmington
| Stands glistening and Haddam shines and sways.
|
| It is the third commonness with light and air,
| A curriculum, a vigor, a local abstraction ...
| Call it, once more, a river, an unnamed flowing,
|
| Space-filled, reflecting the seasons, the folk-lore
| Of each of the senses; call it, again and again,
| The river that flows nowhere, like a sea.
|
| Wallace Stevens
|
|
| ====================================================
| David Graham

Dear David,

Thanks for posting another.  It reminded me of one of my own, which I
tremble to post below, recognizing I am not in Stevens' league.  But I do
see others posting their own poems here sometimes, and think that healthy.
This was published in _Agnieska's Dowry_ some years ago, an interesting
online magazine with lots of visual labyrinths to pore through in order to
get to the writing.

................................
San Lorenzo River
................................
The river puts a hand behind its back
and pushes to the ocean,
scooping a burrow out
from the soft banks
with claws of borrowed gravel,
seeking the easiest shape.

Rising from bottom sands,
a black pyramid of rock
disturbs whatever the sun
drew in gold crayons underwater.
Parallelograms dissolve,
fishnet shadows unravel in the turbulence
that soon smoothes itself
to clear lacquer laminae,
terraces of water edged in foam

Waterfall thunder,
gnashing of rapids,
burblings, water chatter,
hiss, trickle and lap:
The river has a thousand voices.
but only one throat
always open to the sky,
unable to swallow
its gift to the sea, itself.

--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 18 00:36:24 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:36:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm not and I didn't.  Aging tastes...
References: <200404180039.i3I0d3XE006658@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE49t2he0aOj600021caa@hotmail.com>

|
| I think you set us up, CE--acting the lout so you could redeem yourself
with a handsome apology.  Anyway, I'm glad the poem I posted blew you away.
A
| lot of Stevens's poems I don't like as much, and some I don't like at all.
| Of all the canonical poets I've come to admire, he took the longest for me
| to appreciate.
|
| --Bob G

Dear Bob,

I wish I were that smart.  If I were smarter, I would admit to having done
just that.  If I were even smarter, I would have done it and not admitted
it.

But I'm not, and I didn't.

When I speak beyond my knowledge it is good to be informed by those more
knowledgeable, and politely at that.

I got in over my head, but I lead with my head, how I learn (and how I
played basketball).

"Peter Quince at the Clavier" is in almost every modern anthology and it has
never done a damn thing for me.  I can't tell you how many times I've read
it.  When pushed by less than great art to make a choice, I am one who tends
to prefer substance over form.  Why I like Jeffers more than Stevens,
although Jeffer's art is more rough-hewn, but he has the Greek excuse. Why I
like Milosz over Herbert.  Or Rilke over Celan, although that is a closer
call, I think, since Celan has such an impact at an unconscious level.

Topic II:

As for changing tastes, mine have become, if anything, simpler with age.  If
a poem does not move me emotionally I don't care how good the treatment is.
The most anthologized poem in the English language is Blake's "Tyger," and
deservedly so.  Wordsworth's Luci poems.  Plath at her best.  Larkin "The
Explosion."  Heaney "Summer Vacation?" (title) "one foot for every year."
Frost's "To Earthward."  "Prufrock" _not_ "Sweeney Among the Nightingales."

And magic as in "The Jumblies" or "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner."  I
think it's magic ultimately that made me love poetry, when words transport
me by gradations of believability into a world I accept without question.
Good poems force one to read them through even if one doesn't like them.

But I have walked out of many movies and abrogated the experience of many
poems for the same reason.

These fragments have I shored against my ruins.

Good to part of this list.  I feel properly challenged!


Thine,

CE





From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 24 13:08:04 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:08:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why this list is too much trouble.....
References: <200404211339.i3LDd3XE005292@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE57HL4F9DwOw000251ba@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:39 AM
Subject: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2116 - 2 msgs

I just erased pages and pages of HTML code from the bottom of this message..

Trying to get to the dialogue through all the repeated messages, html code,
etc., is like looking for garlic and sapphires in the mud.

In fact, the two times I actually posted poems in response to other poems,
the messages never even went through.

Surely someone here can help us with electronic etiquette.

This digest wears me out, since it mainly consists of indigestible ruffage
between the thin noodles of actual discussion.

Anyone else feel the same?

Correcting this should be an easy thing.

First, don't paste rich text in your replies.  Everything must be plain
text.  No pictures, background, etc.

Second, cut everything out of your replies that isn't germaine, including
headers, etc.

I am not qualified to fix the problem, wish someone would, but I think this
might help.

--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 00:53:32 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 23:53:32 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Four by Jorie Graham with brief and likely prejudicial comments...
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE41tDoOURU6M00025df9@hotmail.com>

After dissing her being on the stage with famous Seamus, and after giving
Stevens short shrift, I thought I'd delve a little deeper into Professor
Graham.


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 20:32:24 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:32:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame....
References: <1ab.233e1031.2dbaf25c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV61giwHsqhA000020a2@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JforJames at aol.com>

|
| > My complaint is not that the mainstreamers don't appreciate me; my
complaint
| >  is that the mainstream is, for all practical purposes, all that exists.
| >
| Bob, I think that's what the "main" part stands for.
|
| Couldn't one say that notoriety is determined by a combination
| of four factors each weighted differently...
| Merit (but the various poetry constituencies have different standards)
| Effort (some people really do Work it, baby)
| Relationships (who you know)
| Luck (that tantalizing intangible)
| Which is pretty much how success in all fields works.

| Finnegan

Wise response, Finnegan.

Effort, especially in networking with mentors, editors, public workshops,
commemorative readings, etc,. is paramount, I think.  And don't forget to
praise everyone in public, even Helen Steiner Rice if she were there and
alive.

Persistence is worth more than talent.  Look at Lyn Lifshin (I bet you all
know her name: "Queen of the Small Presses," just as Gerald Locklin has been
called "King" of the same..

Many otherwise good poets go unknown for the simple fact that they lack the
desire to promote themselves and their work.

You know it helps if you're Joyce's secretary, like Beckett, not to dismiss
his importance.

Or Rodin's secretary, like Rilke.

Anyway, no one would want to be my secretary and go more unnoticed than I!

So it goes.  Are you willing to pay the price for fame, in so far as fame
can even be applied to "this craft or sullen art"?

Then again, "Privacy is the last luxury."  --from a bad Elizabeth George
detective novel.

Then the great thing about poetry is that no one will recognize you in
public!  So you can have it all!

Point is, do you really care, or do you just want to write a really good
poem?

That's what always foils my ambition... more interest in creating and
perfecting than promoting.

No sour grapes.  Those, who like Ginsberg did, appear at every function and
avail themselves of every avenue of publicity deserve their renown.

What history says is another thing.

Yet if your work isn't out there, even history can't save you.  Emily
Dickinson is the great exception.  Lucky for Hopkins and Herbert, they had
Nicholas (Little Gidding founder, blocking on last name)  and Robert Bridges
to salvage their work for posterity.

But what most poets want is immortality.  That takes a talent beyond their
time; they must exceed the vagaries of their age, overcome anachronism,
speak to all men for all time.

Yet if they didn't publish in their lifetime, it's unlikely they'll be
discovered.

As there are more poets now than ever, MFA programs churning out 20,000 a
year, and our memory and sense of history shorter than ever before as a
culture, best to go for the brass ring now.

Alas!  I haven't the ambition, but I do admire those who do.


Over and Out,

CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 13:55:12 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 12:55:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thank you, Crisman, re: Graham
References: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHAEFJCNAA.cc@opus0.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV41wtsQztQo00002742@hotmail.com>

|
| CE,
| Thanks for posting these poems and for your willingness to look at them
with
| an unprejudicial eye. I admit an equal and opposite prejudice: I love
these
| poems. I have read most but not all of Jorie Graham's poetry.  I admit
also
| that I am attracted to what I do not understand and repelled (or plain
| bored) by what I do understand.  Nature, I think, is the ultimate metaphor
| for art and God the ultimate metaphor for the artist.  I do not understand
| Nature or God -- but because I see some semblance of pattern and order
(even
| in chaos), and because the surface is often beautiful and beguiling, I am
| fascinated and drawn in.  If we understand Homer, why do people keep
| translating his works?

For form, not substance.  Homer is that first, fresh voice of western
culture.


If scientists had unlocked all mysteries of nature,
| what would they do with themselves at their conferences?  Etc.  But this
| argument is obtuse, ambient.  What I like specifically about J.  Graham is
| the alternation between keen observation of surfaces, and reason-edged
| imagination that strips the surfaces to look at what is (or might be)
| underneath -- this inquiry undertaken in the spirit of curiosity, wonder,
| awe.  In the case of "Le Manteau de Pascal", she envisions the body
| (physical-metaphysical) that fits inside. Ken Wilber says of the world
"it's
| holons all the way down" -- Graham is trying to describe the nature of
these
| holons, what they are, how they move.
|
Good point.

| > Yet: "so full of hollowness, so wild with rhetoric ...."
| >
| > One can't improve on her last line as a summary of this poem, and
| > if you're
| > a fan no doubt you will think it ironic, but I think it unintentionally
| > ironic, therefore comic.... or I am underestimating her
| > self-mocking power?
|
| I have not yet witnessed an ironic bone in Ms. Graham's poetic skeleton.
| That lack of irony is one thing that makes her work (in my view) extremely
| fresh and original.  (The same might be said of Barry Spacks, by the way,
| who sees irony as koan.  [B, kindly forgive this generality!]:)  So what
is
| she talking about in the line quoted above?  About the sky, made of air,
| that is invisible yet mediates all sound, therefore all discourse,
including
| leaves and lawyers and everything on earth; but also, I think, she is
| talking about language itself -- not only her language, All Language, how
it
| blusters, saying everything yet (from a more distant perspective, the
| perspective, maybe, of the sky) saying nothing.  (The perspective of
Macbeth
| at his defeat, but without the defeatism and without assuming an idiot-- 
JG
| is writing the transformation of Macbeth, his only possible salvation,
| which, as we all know, he misses.)  She is not mocking humanity or the
wind,
| not restating existential truth--  yet she seems to move beyond Romantic
| separation (see Pinsky on "Ode to a Nightingale"), affirming the power of
| language and its place in the inquiry, staying in her intricate
| reinvisioning of the common wonder that surrounds us-- leaving us to
| conclude as we will.  This is my working theory only.
|
| Cc


Dear Crisman,

Aye, there's the rub.  Graham can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  I,
unlike you, want to see the sow's ear, not witness the endless corollaries
language can generate about a sow's ear.  When poetry becomes about language
(and I know this a slightly archaic and conservative opinion), and is no
longer about what is, or _dass Ding an Sich_, I feel it is ultimately
degenerative-- a detour in the history of English verse.  Thus I do not
think Graham will be remembered except as an oddity, and much of this type
of poetry, which even our latest issue of Melic www.melicreview.com/current/
features under the independent aegis of our poetry editor, I think shall
circle the eddies of a shallow pool of Post-Modern eccentricity in the
future.

I have written much on this subject if a dissenting view interests you.
Then there's not arguing about taste.  You like Graham, and I hope no one
takes that from you, and I doubt they can.

For the record, here's an excerpt from my latest essay on "The Hollow Men"
(in our latest issue, link above):


"In selecting two quotes from "Logopoetry II" to illustrate my dilemma,
Eliot is hardly the first poet who comes to mind, as all his work through
"Ash Wednesday" (AW) rarely conforms to my ideal:

    "My antidote for this [the declining popularity of poetry and fear of
its academic mystique] is, quite simply, that poetry should be intelligible
without footnotes, explanations of technique or other intermediary bells and
whistles."

    "The first concern of logopoetry is that art be intelligible. By this I
mean a poem should be comprehensible enough on first reading to yield a
sense. Practically, this means that after one reading the audience should be
able to say, 'The poem was about this or that" and have some general
agreement.'"

Later, in "Logopoetry IV," I expanded my definition:

    "I recently saw the need to raise the threshold for logopoetry, that is
to say, make room for the secondary and tertiary cognition many pieces
require. This need for widening of the definition of intelligibility (the
first principle of logopoetry) was triggered by a remark from Mark Strand,
writing as an editor: 'In cases where I had to choose from many poems of the
same length, as in the sonnet sequence of Spenser or Shakespeare, or in the
poems of Emily Dickinson, it was difficult, and the determining factor
became the relative accessibility of the particular poem on a first or
second reading'" (Preface to the Golden Ecco Anthology, 100 Great Poems of
the English Language, edited by Mark Strand)."



    Obviously these opinions of mine are longstanding.  I prefer the
complexity of Donne, who can be understood but also yields many "koans," to
the expansive meditations of Graham, for instance.  And I never tire of "The
Rime of the Ancient Mariner" or "Prufrock," which I think the two greatest
poems in the language.  Prufrock moves me, so does the Mariner, so does
Dante's pilgrim, so does Homer's voice and the voice of David in the Psalms.
But the voice of Graham, like so much I read nowadays, is more about the
voice itself, the process of invention, while reality and the four great
themes of poetry (Love, Death (including love lost), Nature and God) are
peripheral at best in any _direct_ connection with the reader.

    I love the lucidity of Han Shan and Li Po, the same kind of crystal
clarity I find in Eliot and others.  I suppose all my ramblings and essays
point to one end, which is always present: language as A means of
communication vs. language for the sake of language.  Art for art's sake vs.
art as a medium that connects us with the world, each other, and the
artist's vision.  The two can, of course, co-exist, but most contemporary
work I read leans a little too much towards the latter, the dazzle of
language--- as if reality weren't enough-- with exceptions of course, like
Levine, whose diction and music is nevertheless inferior to Graham's and
Ashbery's.

    Substance over form if it comes to that.  I think the besetting error of
our time, as typified by Ashbery late works and also Graham, is a
pre-occupation with form.  If there's nothing new to say, well, we knew that
already from the last chapter of Ecclesiastes.  But I think the important
themes can be said in a new and arresting way without resorting to the
ratiocination of self-indulgent diction-meisters who keep repeating tropes,
over and over, each a little different, as they try to approach the
ineffable--- I think that's the emperor's clothes, the fashion, and to dig
through another's veils in order to connect to one true imparted emotion ,
or several, seems to me besides the point.  I'm not talking about the
"naked" poetry of Bukowski or slam-world, of course, but say, the clarity of
Strand's earlier work.  The magic.  Magic that transports me yet magic I can
understand at more than a presuppositional level.  I want to be touched.
Does this make me a Philistine?  Seems like I am nowadays.

    But I'll take Blake's "Songs of Innocence and Experience" over
everything Graham's written.  And Strand's "Reasons to Move" over nearly
everything I've read in the last 30 years, though I should put in word for
Jane Kenyon, among others.

    Then there's the opposite pole of which I am equally not enamored, the
ompholoskepsis of Sharon Olds, who has raised the confessional poem to a new
level of craft.  Yet, unless one _is_ Sharon Olds, I think her work, for the
most part, lacks the universality I seek and find in the masters.

    Thanks again for your help in helping me try to appreciate Graham!

    Thine,

    CE











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| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 14:11:05 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:11:05 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kirby's poem...
References: <20040423133713.54480.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV21F5GKdXgP000027c3@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
|
| Here's a David Kirby poem I heard him read
|
| http://www.poems.com/searckir.htm
|
| Jeff Newberry


Dear Jeff,

Nice performance piece, mainly a prosaic monologue better suited to flash
fiction personal narrative-- however Kirby does distinguish himself by
understanding line-breaks.

Anyway, this is spoken poetry to me.  Where's the lyricism, the compression?
No doubt he's a great reader, but if this is representative of his work, and
he is well enough known to appear in _Poetry Daily_, yada, then I must again
recuse myself as a literary dinosaur, though I haven't quite reached the age
of fifty!

--CE


|
|
|
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 14:15:01 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:15:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler-- simple "Bravo" for David
References: <BCAEADC7.85F2%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV21LnK0DYEg000027cd@hotmail.com>

|
| But here's where some of my vehemence comes from:  I like even less the
| outright contempt for the common reader that was the worst fault of the
| modernists, and is, of course, alive and well today under various banners.
|
| As if one ever must choose between Frost and Eliot.  As if access to
| emotional content without the protective wrap of irony were identical to
| sentimentality.  As if narrative--straight, no jump-cut, no ellipsis--were
| inherently outmoded. As if difficulty per se--a poem's refusal to provide
| the traditional pleasures of poetry--were the sole or chief mark of
| excellence.

Bravo, David!

--CE



|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 14:55:07 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:55:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob Cobb: Still ambivalent but I plead guilty... poem "To the Giants"
References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV5FKQRwgF0Z0000273c@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CobbCoStudioArts" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame....


| CE,
|
| You have written, quite well, among other things. . ."I haven't the
ambition, but I do admire those who do.  Over and Out,"
|
| To which I reply:  "If you really have no ambition, you would not hang out
with those who still do.  There will always be room for the admirers, they
are the audience we all seek."
|
| Bob

Dear Bob Cobb (just trying to remember "not Grumman"),

I plead guilty.  Perhaps twice a year I say to myself, "I must get an agent.
I must apply for grants.  I must lick stamps instead of doing lazy e-mail
submissions.  I should call W. D. Snodgrass who lives near me and whose
number I've been given repeatedly.  I should try Poetry and The New Yorker
and The Paris and Antioch Reviews again."

And then I start writing, we get out another issue of our little e-zine, I
get $30 for a poem from an e-zine (yes, Virginia, some pay!), and I forget
about my recognition seizure.

But to quote _Lear_, "It will come" (again).

Is it laziness, unconcern, fear of success or fear of failure?  I don't
know, I can never seem to get off the dime.  I have a few fans, they write
me sometimes.  That's nice.  Haven't published a book of poetry since 1997
and that's out of print.  At least it wasn't vanity press.  I have many
manuscripts I've never sent out, keep meaning to create a website where
folks can dowload them.

Excuses?  Regrets?  I've had a few.

Maybe I need to go to Dale Carnegie. ;-)

Meanwhile, most of the time, I am not discontented.  Yet the feeling will no
doubt return, cyclically, until I do something or not, if I ever do.
Anyway, below an old poem of mine that somewhat expresses this common, say
cliche'd resentment of also-rans:



To the Giants



I see you in the exalted journals,

astonished by your concrete subjects,

startling imagery and veiled conclusions.

Only you can do this.  Others try

to cage what has to soar.  You tie

one-pound-test to it and set it free.

When the line breaks you have a poem.

I?ve seen you write four hundred lines

on roasted meat, a hundred on zucchinis.

You can make poetry out of a dishcloth.


I sent my work to one of you once.

Your secretary wrote me:  Mr.  S-- 

no longer comments on others' work

because of his busy schedule.

I thought your next book sucked.

I swear the two events were not related.



Maybe you remember

how it was before you "made it."

I thought if I could slide one poem

beneath your discriminating nose

I'd have a chance.  Instead I drop

rectangular white prayers in mailboxes

and change commemoratives for luck.

When the rejection slips arrive

I file them under "What the editors missed."

They read the same, invariably:

"We regret your work does not suit

our publication?s needs at this time."

As if!  As if they had needs!

As if it were a matter of timing!



I dream of an editor

in a blue paisley suit who likes martinis

rummaging through the "slush pile."

She finds my poem about the possum.*   (below)

Her cat-eye glasses slip her bridge,

eyes squint like commas.  Another martini

and she thinks "Why not?" --until the Glucks,

Merwins and Ashberrys start levitating

from her in-box to divide

the sorcerers from the apprentices.




I have so little time, she thinks,

and this is not the time for risks--

subscriptions are static, the board is short

of funds, besides, even angstrom-thin pages

could not accommodate all the deserving.

Prides already war over my bleached savannas.

If another craves entrance, let him

bring rains like Elijah, make the ink run.



--CE







In checking my files, I found this was actually published in three different
e-zines: Afternoon, Poetry Super Highway, and Tintern Abbey, the last now
defunct.  Don't know about the other two.  (It was re-published as part of a
*feature* in the latter two zines).  I include the poem the first poem
refers to* below.





*The Intruder



Evil seeped through floorboards.

Only the dead could endure it.


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 15:07:47 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:07:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Herbert, Cummings and pictographs.. back to Bob G.
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001001c4297a$9e7197d0$f6171543@STEVECOMPUTER> <00a301c429f3$1dcb48f0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00d801c42a21$e5cbe9d0$f09c9951@MyPC> <020701c42a2b$5d073410$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV558cU6xfPT000027a9@hotmail.com>


| > Does this parallel the qualitative/quantitative distinction?
| >
| > Robin
|
| I don't think so. . . .  It's probably very simple but for some reason,
I'm
| having trouble grasping it.  Maybe it's just generality versus particular.
| I'm thinking about the iambic compared with anapaestic choice versus the
| metric verse compared with free verse choice.  And, nowadays, the metric
| verse compared with the free verse choice versus the all-word poem
compared
| with the pluraesthetic, or multiple-expressive-modality poem choice.
|
| An aside: yes, Barry, that "pluraesthetic poem" term is 87% of the reason
| I'm sitting as high up as I am today, with a chance now of learning what
| "royalty" means, though little chance of getting one.  While on that
| subject, giving your school a catchy name, or being lucky enough to have
| someone give it ANY name, is one near-essential way of winning some kind
of
| recognition, as the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poets did.  It's also simple
| considerateness, like telling a stranger you've met your name.  But you
have
| to earn lasting recognition.  Which reminds me of a question I've asked
| before but don't think anyone answered: has any group of artists ever done
| something entirely new by sane standards but NOT produced any artworks
that
| entered the canon?  Before 1950, I mean.
|
| Even the visual poets have poems in the canon--some of Apollonaire's
| Calligrams (by whatever spelling), for instance.  Though it would appear
| that no visual poet has entered the canon as a visual poet.
|
| --Bob G.


Dear Bob,

To stretch your definition of visual, certainly one must think of Herbert,
Cummings, and Olson.

More importantly, in Chinese and Japanese poetry, all poetry is visual, and
great calligraphers interpret a standard poem freshly.

It's pictographic languages that best lend themselves to entry as a visual
poet into the canon.

Perhaps you should learn to write in Chinese? ;-)

--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 15:19:44 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:19:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "To the Giants" single-spaced, apologies...
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV53icPFMD5c0000281f@hotmail.com>

Sorry about the other post.  I really am quite conventional about certain
traditions in poetry, and the double-spacing of the first post really bugged
me, as I think double-spacing only worthy of exceedingly compressed,
imagistic poems.   --CE

************************

To the Giants

I see you in the exalted journals,
astonished by your concrete subjects,
startling imagery and veiled conclusions.
Only you can do this.  Others try
to cage what has to soar.  You tie
one-pound-test to it and set it free
When the line breaks you have a poem.
I've seen you write four hundred lines
on roasted meat, a hundred on zucchinis.
You can make poetry out of a dishcloth.
I sent my work to one of you once.
Your secretary wrote me:  _Mr.  S-- 
no longer comments on others' work
because of his busy schedule_.
I thought your next book sucked.
I swear the two events were not related.

Maybe you remember
how it was before you "made it."
I thought if I could slide one poem
beneath your discriminating nose
I'd have a chance.  Instead I drop
rectangular white prayers in mailboxes
and change commemoratives for luck.
When the rejection slips arrive
I file them under "What the editors missed."
They read the same. say, invariably,
_We regret your work does not suit
our publication's needs at this time_.
As if!  As if they had needs!
As if it were a matter of timing!

I dream of an editor
in a blue paisley suit who likes martinis
rummaging through the "slush pile."
She finds my poem about the possum. (1)
Her cat-eye glasses slip her bridge,
eyes squint like commas.  Another martini
and she thinks "Why not?" until the Glucks,
Merwins and Ashberys start levitating
from her in-box to divide
the sorcerers from the apprentices.

_I have so little time_, she thinks,
 _and this is not the time for risks--
subscriptions are static, the board is short
of funds, besides, even angstrom-thin pages
could not accommodate all the deserving.
Prides already war over my bleached savannas.
If another craves entrance, let him
bring rains like Elijah, make the ink run_.

(1)  Addendum (from the slush pile):

The Intruder

Evil seeped through floorboards.
Only the dead could endure it.

From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 15:45:51 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:45:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob G.: Whoo-hoo,  I'm an Iowa guy now!
References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> <BAY18-DAV5FKQRwgF0Z0000273c@hotmail.com> <026301c42a32$045a1380$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV51PbY3oann00002812@hotmail.com>

| I like this poem a lot, and not only because IT'STHESTORYOFMY LIFE,
too--and
| despite the fact that, yes, it's an Iowa Workshop Poem.  One comment: how
| true it is that a stasiffender editing a publication will consider putting
a
| SINGLE poem into it that is not mainstream risky--and probably be RIGHT,
| because there seem, really, to be people who will drop a publication
because
| it has something in it they don't like, and who will automatically not
like
| anything more than minutely different from what they're used to
|
| I enjoyed the possum one, too, though not so much.
|
| --Bob G.
|


Thanks, Bob.

Glad to be included as an Iowa Workshop guy, doubt they'd ever let me in
except as a paying aspirant.

Does this make this poem mainstream?  LOL!

My compulsiveness made me re-post it for reasons I stated.  It must be seven
years old.  I don't write like this much anymore.  The possum poem is twenty
years old, but I still like it-- then I was _there_.

As an editor who has a light verse section in his magazine, I get a lot of
these "poor me" poems, and rarely a fresh treatment.

But I think we've all written them at one time or another, excepting angels
like Emily Dickinson, though someone may no doubt correct me about that if
they know all her 1700+.

You know, I haven't been in an online listserv for poetry in a long time,
and I think I'm getting quite an education here, and I certainly need it.
Also, since I switched to the e-mail format, as ?Wendy? suggested, I find it
much easier to navigate.

As to your question, I think the poem answers it: "names" go to the top of
the pile, the rest to the slush pile.  How it's always been.  Fight through
the slush and become a name.  That's a lot of slush, though!

Much better to have a mentor/champion with connections.... unfortunately,
all my mentors are dead and live in books.  I've tried to write Mark Strand
but have yet to receive an answer... then, per usual, I never licked a
stamp, just tracked him down at the last university e-mail address.  The web
makes me lazy, truly.  And it will never have the cache' that print has,
because it's ergonomically ill-suited to the enjoyment of literature.  We
all want a book in hand, at least a magazine.

As for myself, as an editor, I read submissions blindly.  If someone has the
temerity to put a bio on top, I am instantly prejudiced against them.  Let
the work speak for itself.

Do you think I'm an exception in this?  I hope not.

--CE

p.s. Is "The Possum" not mainstream, or just forgettable?


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 15:57:00 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:57:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud, Bishop, Eliot and Bukowski....
References: <84.2782ec2c.2db9668a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV43KrCZpmM4000027da@hotmail.com>



Who are YOUR favorite readers-aloud, on record or in person?  (Worst I ever
heard live may have been Elizabeth Bishop.)


  A whole evening of Stevens might be a bit much, but that melodious, cadenced voice really captures the rhythms of "Idea of Order."

  My list of worsts:  Alan Dugan
                             Denise Levertov

  Bests:         Maxine Kumin
                     Richard Wilbur
                     X. J. Kennedy
                     Anthony Hecht

  And my friend Leon Stokesbury, who is a great performer, as, for that matter, is B. H. Fairchild.

  *********

  I was never so disappointed as when I heard my favorite poet, T. S. Eliot, read his own work.  They say of Joyce that he put "everything in" and Beckett "took everything out."  Eliot took everything out of his poetry in reading it, I had to turn the program off.  And I was only 18.

  I thought Eliot's High Anglican drone did a great disservice to his poetry, and like Milton, who in "Il Pensoroso," as I recall, refers only to reading Shakespeare-- not actually seeing a play-- I think Eliot was a print poet, and what he heard in his mind he could not translate into voice.

  Perhaps Bishop was the same way.  I mean, she spent what, seven years on "The Moose?"  

  On the other hand, although I hardly consider Bukowski a poet, in listening to him he nearly convinces me.  His stuff is much better heard than read.  

   --CE
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 16:21:37 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:21:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Young Milton....
References: <20040424201148.45545.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV63FopYC98B00002889@hotmail.com>

| since Milton was blind it was hardly likely that he'd
| seen a Shakespeare play except in his yoof...
| I hardly think Milton was the sort of person to go to
| anything as frivolous as plays,
| best wishes,
| Paul Murphy

Dear Paul,

Milton was not blind when he wrote "Allegro" and "Penseroso."  Around 30, as
I recall.

--CE






From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 19:54:17 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:54:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Frank Gaspar-- not the p.f.!
References: <46.4c80f9dd.2dbc1c9e@aol.com> <408AE6B0.7FD82AEE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV41TmIClmpc00002947@hotmail.com>


Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar


| Where there are "impatient branches," angry trees are not far behind.
| 
| - Jim
  
Can we please not get into a discussion of the pathetic fallacy?

LOL!

--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 20:22:24 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:22:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A brief clinical note on the Reuters article on poets dying young...
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV2567yRLVbN000028a3@hotmail.com>


Dr. Kay Jamison, an expert on manic-depression, reviewed the incidence of
mood disorders among famous artists in her book, _Touched with Fire_.
Although I think the book not particularly well done, not as good as her _An
Unquiet Mind_ by any means, here are her figures.

Poets: 20%

Novelists: 10%

Visual Artists: 5%

Untreated manic-depression has at least a 30% lifetime mortality, and most
die young who die-- either by accident through mania or by suicide through
depression. This mortality is greater than childhood leukemia and many other
more dreaded diseases.

Now here's a short list from recent times:

Hart Crane
John Berryman
Sylvia Plath
Theodore Roethke
Robert Lowell
Ann Sexton (? most likely a Borderline Personality Disorder)
Jane Kenyon

Eliot, Frost and Stevens were merely depressives, which has only about a 5%
lifetime mortality.

Then there is the veil of alcoholism, which disguises the illness for many,
perhaps Dylan Thomas, for instance.

Or look back:

Coleridge
Keats
Shelley
Byron
John Clare
Blake

Tennyson was merely depressive, though he had the gene. Hardy as well.
Hopkins had it really bad.

Anyway, if you apply the early deaths of manic-depression and depression to
poets as a group, it explains the early deaths better than any other fact.
And nowadays, with such puny rewards for the art, you must be crazy to write
it anyway!

BTW, below a link for the Bipolar Celebrity Site, where you might see some
names you recognize. I hadn't gone there in some time, and now they have
four times as many names as when I first encountered the site.  This used to
be a more exclusive group, listing just manic-depressives.  Now they list
the depressives with them, which has lowered the standards to admit Richard
Nixon among others.  err... Ka-Ching!  "I am not a liar-- I'm just depressed
and paranoid."

Bipolar disorder was one of the "in" diseases of the nineties, if your
recall, with Margot Kidder, Mariette Hartley, etc.

Nothing like an illness to re-charge your fading career.  Dick Clark just
came out with his diabetes!

--CE


http://www.geocities.com/coverbridge2k/artsci/famous_people_depression.html



From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 20:27:31 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:27:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Furniture poet... and Jeffers
References: <1ad.22b00a7e.2dbc48c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV14cnMhMBQK0000293e@hotmail.com>

As a fan of Robinson Jeffers, I am reminded of a similar criticism of his
verse, namely that he rarely mentions a species of plant or animal, more
often goes for the generality ("The image is typical of Tagore; it is
typically fluid and formless")-- nevertheless is a fine nature poet.  I
guess specificity ain't all.

-CE

----- Original Message ----- 
From: JforJames at aol.com



Thirteen years ago, I had the slightly terrifying honor
of talking with the venerated and mellifluous Rabindranath
Tagore. We were speaking of the poetry of Baudelaire.
Someone recited "La Mort des amants," that sonnet so
appointed with beds, couches, flowers, chimneys, mantelpieces,
mirrors and angels. Tagore listened intently, but at the end
he exclaimed, "I don't like your furniture poet."  I deeply
agreed. Now, reading his writings, I suspect that he was
moved less by a horror of Romantic bric-a-brac than by
an uncontrollable love of vagueness.

Tagore is incorrigibly imprecise. In his thousand and one lines
there is no lyric tension and not the least verbal economy.
In the prologue he states that one "has submerged oneself
in the depths of the ocean of forms." The image is typical
of Tagore; it is typically fluid and formless.

--Jorge Luis Borges, from a brief review of "Rabindranath
Tagore's Collected Poems and Plays." Translated by
Eliot Weinberger in _Selected Non-Fictions: Jorge Luis Borges_


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 27 20:31:29 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:31:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems:  definitional; addendum "PEMLODs"
References: <BCB0617D.86DF%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV39Rp7VRFnl00002973@hotmail.com>

I have published essays with an alternative term I developed some years ago
out of frustration with style I most frequently encountered when I returned
to the literary world via the net in '97.

I won't put links for essays and interviews where I bloviate on the subject,
though I suppose they can be googled.  Honk, honk.

Anyway, here's my term:

PEMLODs

"Personal Emotive Monologues with Lots of (concrete) Details"

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:25 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional


| The phrase is a hot button, of course, maddening because it's both so
| widespread and so utterly imprecise.
|
| Near as I can tell, what users mean by it is typically something like
| "lyric-I poem ending in an epiphany."  Occasionally the equally vague and
| contested term "confessional" finds its way into the mix.  Don't get me
| started on "confessional" as a useless category!  (Oops:  too late:  I
| already committed a book on the subject.)
|
| Sometimes free verse is also specified, though that certainly muddies the
| waters even further, I would think, given the legacy of folks like
Justice,
| Berryman, & Lowell over the years at Iowa.  As do all the non-lyric-I
poems
| that have issued from Iowa workshops--actual, not symbolic.
|
| In any case, since "lyric-I poem ending in an epiphany" pretty much
| describes a large swatch of the canon, I've never found "Iowa Workshop
poem"
| to be very helpful or needed as a category.
|
| To the extent that its users believe it to be self-evident, it misleads.
To
| the extent that its users *do* have a firm definition in mind, they often
| disagree wildly.
|
|
|
| ====================================================
| David Graham
| grahamd at ripon.edu
| Home Page:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
| Poetry Library:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
| ====================================================
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 28 09:46:19 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:46:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon, Shudder Not!
References: <BCB0617D.86DF%grahamd@ripon.edu> <BAY18-DAV39Rp7VRFnl00002973@hotmail.com> <8F313394.3605E11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV59ziYV6IEM00002e20@hotmail.com>

| > "Personal Emotive Monologues with Lots of (concrete) Details"
|
| C.E., I remember seeing this (from you) many years ago, when I did my
| first, brief excursion on the web.  I shuddered then, in fear that
| this summed up my own work.
|
| I still shudder.
|
| Sharon Brogan


Dear Sharon,

Here's what makes a PEMLOD not a pemlod:

Galway Kinnell said "The most universal poem is also the most personal."

I think it's the Iowa Workshop PEMLOD that seems almost premeditatedly so
that bores me, not the honest personal account.

A good PEMLOD transcends the method.

Look at Frost's "To Earthward," for instance, my favorite poem of his.  It's
sort of a melancholy recollection of youth in the first person, but it never
fails to move me.  The question is, how does he do it?   It's not just the
form.  It's something fresh.  And Kim Addonizio, a PEMLOD poet if ever I saw
one, transcends the method in "What Women Want" ("What a Woman Wants"?).

There are good and bad sonnets, good and bad PEMLODs, good and bad IWPs.

The history of the term, for any interested, goes back to earlier days on
the web, where a certain "collection" that was widely admired invited me to
their exclusive workshop.  As a favor I reviewed their site and concluded
that 70% of their selections were PEMLODs, a term I invented to wrap my
brain around the prevailing style of their collection, then one of the
leading poetry sites on the net.  Afterwards they kicked me out with
contumations.  Later, when they became less prominent and the dust had
somewhat settled, I was published in their two regular magazines, although
earlier, after being chosen by a guest editor for an issue, the editor
overruled her out of spite.  Those were the days!  The days when editors of
another prominent e-zine (that has since featured Levine, among others)
informed me they had to de-publish two essays and three poems of mine in
order to accommodate the demands of Robert Creeley, who offered them a worn
chapbook from 1975 in exchange.

"The reason academic [poetic] battles are so vicious is that the stakes are
so small."

The web is the one great medium where instead of decomposing, like a dead
Beethoven, one may be de-published while still alive.

That my greatest fame [notoriety] derives from being persecuted by a
septuagenarian minimalist still amuses me.

Which again, for purposes of our earlier discussion, shows the importance of
"names."  Instead of listing my publications, it's much more effective to
claim I was persecuted by Robert Creeley.  But isn't this how it's always
been?  One need only read "The Dunciad" or "To Dr. Arbuthnot" to confirm
that it has.  Celebrity wasn't invented by television, only simplified and
enlarged.


Cheers,

CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 28 10:07:20 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:07:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry...
References: <84.2782ec2c.2db9668a@cs.com> <BAY18-DAV43KrCZpmM4000027da@hotmail.com> <20040425015139.I6180@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV16rVc4Iu1B00002e1a@hotmail.com>



| ouch. while hank chinaski was awful as a writer of fiction, his poesy
| could knock the socks off of most modern american so called 'poetry.'
|
| why is he not a poet to you?

Dear KPaul,

That you ask the question shows us to be most likely beyond reconciling that
difficult definition of where poetry stops and journaling begins.

I actually prefer Buke's "fiction" to his "poetry," although both are
derived directly from his rather sordid life experience with little artistic
alteration if any.

I think his best work his book on his experience in an actual job at the
post office.

Anyway, for a longer explanation, here's a link to my essay, "Charles
Bukowski and the Nadir of American Poetry":

http://www.melicreview.com/cgibin/ess_archive.cgi?iss09.cechaffin.01

And to be fair, ever since Dana Gioia said "No great poet has come out of
California" (where Dana nevertheless chose to live, and while ignorantly
ignoring Robinson Jeffers), it riles me that Bukowski is likely the
best-known poet from LA, where I grew up and later practiced medicine.  So
perhaps my personal ire at having Bukowski identified with my native state
makes me less than objective.  Then I think I would have disrespected his
"art" if I'd been born in the Congo.

Thanks for asking,

CE



From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 14:06:30 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:06:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] IWP -- lumpers and splitters
References: <f4.3a2a6ba6.2dbc9106@aol.com> <01b601c42afc$bf777a20$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV44pz6qUfFb00004e6b@hotmail.com>

Dear Bob,,

I don't know about other disciplines, but in medical school the professors
would often tell us, as a matter of course during a lecture, "I'm a lumper"
or "I'm a splitter."

I'm a lumper and here you appear a splitter.

Your own examples are on the mark, although the diction of the first, "down
my darkening," seems too much Thomas or Hopkinesque.   A little out there
for " 4. is genteel in vocabulary and morality."

Anyway, you have drawn your net wide.  I think you could pare these down.

Then I'm a lumper.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:37 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iowa Workshop Poem


| I know, we've been over it more than enough times, but I need to define
the
| Iowa Workshop Poem for my essay and I can't find the relevant posts.
| New-Poetry is very hard to search, at least for me.  I downloaded three
| months' of posts and had my computer look for "Iowa."  It found it in two
| files, but the files was each an entire month of posts!  No more specific
| indication where "Iowa" was.  No doubt there's an easy way of doing it
that
| I'm ignorant of.
|
| If someone can tell me how to search New-Poetry, great.
|
| Otherwise, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone would repost his
definition
| of Iowa Workshop Poetry if he once put forward a fairly detailed one, as
| several did, including me.
|
| Here are my latest notes toward a definition:
|
| A 100% Iowa Workshop Poem is a poem that:
|
| 1. involves quotidian, usually suburban subject matter
|
| 2. uses understated near-prose (i.e., free verse with few or no frills or
| unconventionalities of expression)
|
| 3. ends with a standard epiphany or anti-epiphany
|
| 4. is genteel in vocabulary and morality
|
| 5. strives for anthroceptual sensitivity (i.e., symptahetic awareness of
| other human beings)
|
| 6. acts as a means to self-expression, or bringing the self to life as
| opposed to capturing a scene, some object or idea--never as an end in
| itself, as a beautiful verbal artifact
|
| 7. features telling concrete details out of everyday life
|
| 8. avoids gaudy metaphors and other forms of verbal splashiness
|
| 9. wouldn't be caught dead harboring a poetic technique not in wide use by
| 1950 at the latest
|
| 10. is not controversial in thought or attitude, or--really--close to
| explicitly ideational
|
| 11. tends to be indirect, subtle
|
| 12. is first-person
|
| 13. is generally short--one to three pages in length--never long.
|
| Odd, my impression was that I'd written quite a few 100% Iowa Workshop
| Poems, but when I started going through my files to find some examples of
| them for this essay, I realized I haven't. My Poem poems, for instance,
are
| in the third person, and are almost always guilty of one kind of burstnorm
| funny business or another. Even poems of mine from thirty years ago like
the
| one below:
|
| Saturday Interval
|
| In the park just down the road
| from the rear-view mirror factory where I work,
| and about a mile from the room I rent,
| I sit by myself among scattered
| stonefuls of midsummer sun,
| brooknoise,
| and patches of daisies.
| I've brought a book
| but haven't bothered to open it.
|
| From time to time Persephones climb
| through the stones' slow pulse
| or into the affections
| of the flowering fields,
| but never,
| even briefly,
| down
| my darkening.
|
| This certainly begins Iowanly, and it has the Big Epiphany at the end, but
| its metaphors prevent it from being a 100% Iowa Workshop poem. I'd still
| call it one. Which is not to belittle it. I'm with CE, David and others
who
| respect it. It seems to me a kind of poem that, once discovered, caught on
| because it is biologically-right: an informal equivalent of the sonnet in
| that it generally summarizes a single human circumstance and caps it with
a
| reaction, the epiphany. I suspect the sonnet and it are the size of what
| might be called a normal medium reflection. I'm more sure that the haiku
is
| the size of a single rich moment plus a reaction to it. The sonnet and the
| Iowa Workshop Poem may be a step up in size from the haiku. Just musing.
My
| main point is that I have nothing against the Iowa Workshop Poem--except
| that so many teachers, anthologists, grants-bestowers and critics act as
| though there's just about no other viable kind of poem around.
|
| Here's another poem of mine I thought for sure was a 100% Iowa Workshop
| Poem:
|
|
| The Canoe
|
| Head unbent,
| the boy faces his father.
| A blue canoe from a poem he'd write
| more than twenty years later
| is beached an rotting
| somewhere on the outskirts
| of the tension between them.
| Forever once
| as a child of four
| he had ridden that canoe
| out of his mother'sstrawberry winds
| and into the midst of island and gulls
| on the fringe of the great wide sea.
| His father had done the paddling,
| picnic-eyed and strong in a summer Saturday.
|
| But it is another season now
| and the boy faces an older father,
| a father pale and strange
| in the adolescence the boy can't help
| taunting him from.
|
| It is a different season now, and years will go by
| before the boy reflects upon,
| or even notices
| from the dark margins of the moment
| the shine of the blue at its center.
|
| I'd call this maybe a 70% Iowa Workshop Poem. It's in the third-person,
and
| it has stuff like "forever once" and "picnic-eyed" which make me cringe
but
| which I also think are probably effective. I'd say any poem that more than
| half of the items on my list apply to that is not burstnorm or songmode
| (neo-formal) in any significant way is a Iowa Workshop Poem.
|
| Note: this post is a first draft, although also a fiftieth draft of
opinions
| I'm always tossing around, so I'd be grateful for any comments. I'm
| especially looking for additions to my list. Subtractions? Refinements,
for
| sure.
|
| --Bob G.
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 14:53:04 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:53:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry friendship-- good post....
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2BE@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV14siIWeTlh00004e66@hotmail.com>

Re:

"Poetry Friendship on Earth"

posted by D. Graham....

Dear David,

Good to know that irony is not dead.  This made me chuckle.

Hard to lament a poem about poetry and poets as insular when it can equally
apply to all artists, athletes, celebrities, etc.

My favorite quote about Hollywood, again:

"It's not enough to succeed in Hollywood, your best friend must also fail."

Thanks for this.

Though I am new to this asylum, I do enjoy a brief, light literary break
from politics as usual.... and you seem to be one who injects the antidote
now and then.

--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 15:04:42 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:04:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ingredients of an Effective Poem-- two cents...
References: <BCB28A5C.67D9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <408D205D.6E8B74BE@ix.netcom.com> <017901c42be2$72bc8fe0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV60SsiWdBds00004fab@hotmail.com>

Ah, Bob,

As I've written in so many styles that one can hardly say I arrived at a
"voice," and likely never will by the usual criterion, there is but one
thing I would wish for a poem of mine, and I have thought about this for a
long time:

!!!!!!!!*MAGIC*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

e.g.,

"The Jumblies"

"Reasons to Move"

"The Rime of the Ancient Mariner"

"Tyger, Tyger!"

"The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"

"Sailing to Byzantium"

"To Christ, the Windhover"

"Fern Hill"

Our magazine, Melic, also contains an acronym that is sometimes useful:

Meaning

Economy

Lyricism

Innovation

Clarity

--CE

www.melicreview.com




----- Original M

essage ----- 
From: Bob Grumman
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 5:01 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ingredients of an Effective Poem


If you had to specify the one ingredient of an effective poem most important
to its success, what would it be?  Or, to put it another way, if the muse of
poetry came to you and told you she would make certain that all your poems
had one specific ingredient, what ingredient would you choose.

For me, it would be their each being unlike any other poem in at least one
significant respect.  Yeah, made new.

I believe some at New-Poetry would ask that their poems not be unlike all
other poems in any significant respect.  But they wouldn't let it be known.

The New Yorker poetry editor apparently would rate authenticity the most
important ingredient of a successful poem, going (unfairly, I admit) by what
she said in praise of the Brooks Brothers poet.

Dana Gioia might vote for memorability, although that would bring up the
question of what makes a poem memorable, which in turn would have to be the
ingredient the poem depends most on for its effectiveness.

Comrade Parcelli would vote for big-heartedness I would guess.

Any thoughts?

Here are the specifics I've thought of:

1. freshness

2. clarity

3. an important moral message

4. sincerity

5. melodic language

6. archetypal significance

7. a theme almost everyone can identify with (i.e., universality)

8. an interesting story

I'm sure there are more.

A related question I just thought of: which of the following would you most
want your poems to make those exposed to them think of you as?

1. brilliantly intelligent

2. wonderfully clever

3. nobly selfless

4. incredibly aesthetically sensitive

5. just one o' the gang

6. some who should run for president

7. a complete idiot

8. just plain competent

9. sexually attractive

10. a real nice person

Anything else?

--Bob G.


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 20:08:12 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:08:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] To Bob G., As Hugo Black said....
References: <BCB28A5C.67D9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <408D205D.6E8B74BE@ix.netcom.com> <017901c42be2$72bc8fe0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV60SsiWdBds00004fab@hotmail.com> <014e01c42cab$5fd71f20$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV60kMUVfNIJ00005348@hotmail.com>


|
|
| > Ah, Bob,
| >
| > As I've written in so many styles that one can hardly say I arrived at a
| > "voice," and likely never will by the usual criterion, there is but one
| > thing I would wish for a poem of mine, and I have thought about this for
a
| > long time:
| >
| > !!!!!!!!*MAGIC*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
| Sorry, no good, CE.  Too vague and general.  It's like wishing that one's
| poems had excellence.
|
| --Bob G.

Now Bob,

Most analytical grand poobah, can't you take a hint?

You didn't comment on my list.

How's this: "That quality which transports us beyond the rational into an
even more believable alternate world which we implicitly acccept by force of
language."

Hugo Black: "I can't define pornography, but I know what it is when I see
it."

--CE

|
|
| > e.g.,
| >
| > "The Jumblies"
| >
| > "Reasons to Move"
| >
| > "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner"
| >
| > "Tyger, Tyger!"
| >
| > "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock"
| >
| > "Sailing to Byzantium"
| >
| > "To Christ, the Windhover"
| >
| > "Fern Hill"


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 20:18:06 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 19:18:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ingredients... a mandala for reference...
References: <BCB28A5C.67D9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <408D205D.6E8B74BE@ix.netcom.com> <017901c42be2$72bc8fe0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV60SsiWdBds00004fab@hotmail.com> <014e01c42cab$5fd71f20$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV225Qy2LfHx0000517f@hotmail.com>

Dear Bob,

In my own struggle to characterize a good poem, I had to resort to a
Mandela, which you may find in the body of the essay with the following
link:

http://beehive.temporalimage.com/archive/shots/22/logopoetry.gif

Is it not ironic that as you have done in your poetry, so I had to resort to
the holistic (visual) in any attempt at analysis?

I'll send you the image by personal e-mail in case you don't have the
time...

--CE


From cechaffin at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 15:27:40 2004
From: cechaffin at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:27:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Edward Hirsch: Can you classify this poem?
Message-ID: <BAY9-DAV2P7xm12s5mZ000396f3@hotmail.com>


A poem "for all the insomniacs in the world" by Edward Hirsch, from WILD
GRATITUDE.


***************************************

I Need Help

For all the insomniacs in the world
I want to build a new kind of machine
For flying out of the body at night.
This will win peace prizes, I know it,
But I can't do it myself; I'm exhausted,
I need help from the inventors.

I admit I'm desperate, I know
That the legs in my legs are trembling
And the skeleton wants out of my body
Because the night of the rock has fallen.
I want someone to lower a huge pulley
And hoist it back over the mountain

Because I can't do it alone. It is
So dark out here that I'm staggering
Down the street like a drunk or a cripple;
I'm almost a hunchback from trying to hold up
The sky by myself. The clouds are enormous
And I need strength from the weight lifters.

How many nights can I go on like this
Without a single light from the sky: no moon,
No stars, not even one dingy street lamp?
I want to hold a rummage sale for the clouds
And send up flashlights, matchbooks, kerosene,
And old lanterns. I need bright, fiery donations.

And how many nights can I go on walking
Through the garden like a ghost listening
To flowers gasping in the dirt-small mouths
Gulping for air like tiny black asthmatics
Fighting their bodies, eating the wind?
I need the green thumbs of a gardener.

And I need help from the judges. Tonight
I want to court-martial the dark faces
That flare up under the heavy grasses-
So many blank moons, so many dead mouths
Holding their breath in the shallow ground,
Almost breathing. I have no idea why

My own face is never among them, but
I want to stop blaming myself for this,
I want to hear the hard gavel in my chest
Pounding the verdict, "Not guilty as charged,"
But I can't do this alone, I need help

From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 30 23:54:11 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:54:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] James, source please?
References: <74.3b7fc9e2.2dc05d5b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV17Ur5qWn3G000055b6@hotmail.com>

Source of quiz, please JforJames?

--CE



This is evaluative rather than analytical, is it not?


Yes, self-evaluative, as I hoped the directive at the beginning
would indicate. But I do hope the poet, in honestly grading his/her
work, will consider each of the six points to be a "categorical imperative"
and not just a matter of personal interest.
Like all social systems largely contrived of language, poetry and its
evaluative/critical apparatus is based solely on words, and words
are not like numbers, and are therefore not sufficient to anything
beyond conjecture and speculation, they're not truly analytical as
Bob would want but will never have.
Finnegan

----- Original Message ----- 


From: <JforJames at aol.com>


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 00:09:31 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:09:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] bad link......
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV99ZQoMCfRs0000554c@hotmail.com>

In a fortuitous irony imposed upon my techignorance and suborning
narcissism, I gave the wrong link for that there essay with the Mandala
thingie.

When I tried the link on my computer it crashed.

If this happened to others, lo lamento.

--CE



http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_maps/22a.html


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 00:17:13 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:17:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Concerned.....
References: <74.3b7fc9e2.2dc05d5b@aol.com> <01de01c42cc2$f5f7c5b0$29efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV49hJMYTcec000055be@hotmail.com>

I finally subjected my best poems to the test.  They scored 30.  That's
without adding categories like VII, technique, and VIII, coverage of
existence.  My poems got 6 in some categories but lost three points by never
being "enlightened, revolutionary in perspective."


God, Bob,


It scares me that someone would actually do this.

My, my.

You're kidding, right?


--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 31 00:23:05 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 23:23:05 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bicameral Brain
References: <E26C7098-98C0-11D8-B5C6-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV331PO4SoEK000054ce@hotmail.com>

Dear Wendy,

I'm very much in sympathy with you, but I see this impasse in approach more
indicative of the right and left brain hemispheres than any failure in
communication.

(Antinomy, not paradox or opposition.)

"Magic" was my word.

"Vision" works for many.


--CE


|
| Bob,
| Pleasure is good, but it's not the punchline of the joke.  Think pure
| mescaline rather than wine.  You took "vision" to mean something large
| and spacious, which is fine but partial; it can be narrow, near, high,
| wide, deep, far.  Jim Cervantes gave you a good thought experiment;
| rest in that for a bit.  You might get a vision.  I have no objection
| to taxonomy if you've inhabited the territory long enough and observed
| carefully enough to be very familiar with the creatures you're naming.
| Jeffrey's "Be clearer about the numinous" could parse whole worlds for
| someone who's paying attention.  Jim Finnegan's Assay Test, the same by
| different means.  I haven't caught up with the whole thread; there's
| probably more.
|
| > So my question becomes, what would you like those
| > exposed to your poems to consider your greatest strength as a
| > pleasure-giver?  Human sympathy?  Intelligence?  Moral validity?
| > Cleverness
| > with words?  Etc.
|
| I want the poems to be considered worth reading, that they might be
| read.
|
| Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
| Wendy Battin
| wjbat at conncoll.edu
|
| Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|