From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Tue Jun  1 07:20:06 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 07:20:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog - Can 3600 visitors a week be wrong?
Message-ID: <005201c447ca$681578a0$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

A question from Lee Ann Brown:
How to find a new muse
(9 for 9 Poets Project, Question 6)

Using Jeff Clark's Music & Suicide
to discredit the post-avant:
Troy Jollimore in the SF Chronicle

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar
(June Swoon edition)

Ten questions
from Chicago Postmodern Poetry -
"What is your favorite curse word?"

The haunted poetics of
Peter Gizzi

Negativity & ambivalence -
Why more people read poetics than poetry

Graham Foust's Leave the Room to Itself

Jeff Clark's Music & Suicide:
FSG discredits the post-avant
by publishing it

How did my first engagement 
with the poetry community
impact my poetry & life?
(9 for 9 Poets Project, Question 5)

Free Radicals: American Poets 
Before Their First Book
-- A shocking, excellent anthology

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

**************************
Last week 3,670 visitors
read 5,934 pages
on Silliman's Blog
**************************





From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jun  1 08:42:44 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 08:42:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bush Light
In-Reply-To: <006e01c4467c$a4df6790$7e607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <40BC4184.13035.4ABC46@localhost>

Found Poem: Bush Light

How many members of the Bush Administration 
does it take to change a light bulb?

Six:

One to deny the light bulb 
needs to be changed.

One to blame former President Clinton 
for the condition of the light bulb.

One to prepare to invade a country rumored 
to have a secret stockpile of light bulbs.

One to attack the patriotism of anyone 
who questions changing the light bulb.

One to pay Halliburton a million dollars 
for the new light bulb.

One to dress President Bush 
in an electrician's uniform
and photograph him
changing the light bulb. 





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jun  1 08:56:10 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 14:56:10 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bush Light
References: <40BC4184.13035.4ABC46@localhost>
Message-ID: <00fc01c447d7$d049ba50$ef607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi Marcus,

here in Italy we have a similar one on the Carabinieri, one of the many
forces similar to the Police:

How many Carabinieri do you need to change a light bulb?

Five:

One stands on the table with the light bulb in his hands and the other four
turn the table round.

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:42 PM


> Found Poem: Bush Light
>
> How many members of the Bush Administration
> does it take to change a light bulb?
>
> Six:
>
> One to deny the light bulb
> needs to be changed.
>
> One to blame former President Clinton
> for the condition of the light bulb.
>
> One to prepare to invade a country rumored
> to have a secret stockpile of light bulbs.
>
> One to attack the patriotism of anyone
> who questions changing the light bulb.
>
> One to pay Halliburton a million dollars
> for the new light bulb.
>
> One to dress President Bush
> in an electrician's uniform
> and photograph him
> changing the light bulb.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jun  1 10:37:30 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 10:37:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jon Stewart's Commencement Address
Message-ID: <40BC5C6A.16452.B3CE2C@localhost>

Jon Stewart's Commencement Address at William and Mary College

(Jon Stewart is an alumnus of William and Mary who was invited by the 
college president to deliver
the commencement address to the class of 2004.) 

Thank you, Mr. President, I had forgotten how crushingly dull these 
ceremonies are.  Thank you.

My best to the choir. (They had just sung the William and Mary 
College Anthem)  I have to say, that song never grows old for me.  
Whenever I hear that song, it reminds me of nothing.

I am honored to be here, but I do have a confession to make before we 
get going that I should explain very quickly. When I am not on 
television, this is actually how I dress. (He was wearing a cap and 
gown with an honorary doctorate sash) I apologize, but there's 
something very freeing about it. I congratulate the students for 
being able to walk even a half a mile in this non-breathable fabric 
in the Williamsburg heat.  I am sure the environment that now exists 
under your robes, are 
the same conditions that primordial life began on this earth.

I know there were some parents that were concerned about my speech 
here tonight, and I want to assure you that you will not hear any 
language that is not common at, say, a dock workers union meeting, or 
Tourrette's convention, or profanity seminar.  Rest assured.

I am honored to be here and to receive this honorary doctorate.  When 
I think back to the people that have been in this position before me -
- from Benjamin Franklin to Queen Noor of Jordan, I can't help but 
wonder what has happened to this place.  Seriously, it saddens me.  
As a person, I am honored to get it; but as an alumnus, I have to say 
I believe we can do better.  And I believe we should.  But it has 
always been a dream of mine to receive a doctorate and to know that 
today, without putting in any effort, I will.  It's incredibly 
gratifying. Thank you.  That's very nice of you, I appreciate it.

I'm sure my fellow doctoral graduates -- who have been so long 
toiling in academia, sinking into debt, sacrificing God knows how 
many years of their lives for what, in truth, is a piece of parchment 
that has been so devalued by our instant gratification culture as to 
have been rendered meaningless -- will join in congratulating me.  
Thank you.

But today isn't about how my presence here devalues this fine 
institution.  It is about you, the graduates. I'm honored to be here 
to congratulate you today.  Today is the day you enter into the real 
world, and I should give you a few pointers on what it is.  It's 
actually not that different from the environment here. The biggest 
difference is you will now be paying for things, and the real world 
is not surrounded by three-foot brick wall.  And the real world is 
not a restoration.  If you see people in the real world making bricks 
out of straw and water, those people are not colonial re-enactors -- 
they are poor.  Help them. And in the real world, there is not as 
much candle lighting.  I don't really 
know what it is about this campus and candle lighting, but I wish it 
would stop.  We only have so much wax, people.

Lets talk about the real world for a moment.  We had been discussing 
it earlier, and I -- I wanted to bring this up to you earlier about 
the real world, and this is I guess as good a time as any.  I don't 
really know to put this, so I'll be blunt.  We broke it.

 Please don't be mad.  I know we were supposed to bequeath to the 
next generation a world better than the one we were handed.  So, 
sorry.

I don't know if you've been following the news lately, but it just 
kinda got away from us.  Somewhere between the gold rush of easy 
internet profits and an arrogant sense of endless empire, we heard 
kind of a pinging noise, and uh, then the damn thing just died on us. 
 So I apologize.

But here's the good news.  You fix this thing, you're the next 
greatest generation, people.  You do this -- and I believe you can -- 
you win this war on terror, and Tom Brokaw's kissing your ass from 
here to Tikrit, let me tell ya.   And even if you don't, you're not 
gonna have much trouble surpassing my generation.  If you end up 
getting your picture taken next to a naked guy pile of enemy 
prisoners and don't give the thumbs up-- you've outdone us.

We declared war on terror.  We declared war on terror -- it's not 
even a nation, so, good luck.  After we defeat terror, I'm sure we'll 
take on that bastard ennui.

But obviously that's the world.  What about your lives?  What piece 
of wisdom can I impart to you about  of you are nostalgic today and 
filled with excitement and perhaps uncertainty at what the future 
holds.  I know six of you are trying to figure out how to make a bong 
out of your caps.  I believe you are members of Psi U.  Hey that did 
work, thank you for the reference.

So I thought I'd talk a little bit about my experience here at 
William and Mary.  It was very long ago, and if you had been to 
William and Mary while I was here and found out that I would be the 
commencement speaker 20 years later, you would be somewhat surprised, 
and probably somewhat 
angry.  I came to William and Mary because as a Jewish person I 
wanted to explore the rich tapestry of Judaica that is Southern 
Virginia.  Imagine my surprise when I realized "The Tribe" was not 
what I thought it meant.

In 1980 I was 17 years old.  When I moved to Williamsburg, my hall 
was in the basement of Yates, which combined the cheerfulness of a 
bomb shelter with the prison-like comfort of the group shower.  As a 
freshman I was quite a catch.  Less than five feet tall, yet my head 
is the same 
size it is now.  Didn't even really look like a head, it looked more 
like a container for a head.  I looked like a Peanuts character.  
Peanuts characters had terrible acne.  But what I lacked in looks I 
made up for with a repugnant personality.

In 1981 I lost my virginity, only to gain it back again on appeal in 
1983.  You could say that my one saving grace was academics where I 
excelled, except that I did not.

And yet now I live in the rarified air of celebrity, of mega-stardom. 
 My life a series of Hollywood orgies and Kabala center brunches with 
the cast of  Friends.  At least that's what my handlers tell me.  I'm 
actually too valuable to live my own life and spend most of my days 
in a vegetable crisper to remain fake news anchor fresh.

So I know that the decisions that I made after college worked out.  
But at the time I didn't know that they would.  You see, college is 
not necessarily predictive of your future success.  And it's the kind 
of thing where the path that I chose obviously wouldn't work for you. 
 For one, you're not very funny.

So how do you know what is the right path to choose to get the result 
that you desire?  And the honest answer is this: you won't.  And 
accepting that greatly eases the anxiety of your life experience.

I was not exceptional here, and am not now.  I was mediocre here.  
And I'm not saying aim low.  Not everybody can wander around in an 
alcoholic haze and then at 40 just, you know, decide to be president. 
 You've got to really work hard to try to -- (a thunderous roar of 
laughter from the audience at this point)  I was actually referring 
to my father.

When I left William and Mary I was shell-shocked. Because when you're 
in college it's very clear what you have to do to succeed.  And I 
imagine here everybody knows exactly the number of credits they 
needed to graduate, where they had to buckle down, which introductory 
psychology 
class would pad out the schedule.  You knew what you had to do to get 
to this college and to graduate from it. But the unfortunate, yet 
truly exciting thing about your life, is that there is no core 
curriculum.  The entire place is an elective.  The paths are infinite 
and the results uncertain.  And it can be maddening to those that go 
here, especially here, because your strength has always been 
achievement.  So if there's any real advice I can give you its this   
              ;

College is something you complete.  Life is something you experience. 
 So don't worry about your grade, or the results or success.  Success 
is defined in myriad ways, and you will find it, and people will no 
longer be grading you, but it will come from your own internal sense 
of decency
which I imagine, after going through the program here, is quite 
strong...although I'm sure downloading illegal files...but, nah, 
that's a different story.

Love what you do. Get good at it.  Competence is a rare commodity in 
this day and age.  And let the chips fall where they may.

And the last thing I want to address is the idea that somehow this 
new generation is not as prepared for the sacrifice and the tenacity 
that will be needed in the difficult times ahead.  I have not found 
this generation to be cynical or apathetic or selfish.  They are as 
strong and as decent as any people that I have met.  And I will say 
this, on my way down here I stopped at Bethesda Naval, and when you 
talk to the young kids that are there that have just been back from 
Iraq and Afghanistan, you don't have the worry about the future that 
you hear from so many that are not a part of this generation but 
judging it from above.

And the other thing....that I will say is, when I spoke earlier about 
the world being broke, I was somewhat being facetious, because every 
generation has their challenge. And things change rapidly, and life 
gets better in an instant.

I was in New York on 9-11 when the towers came down.  I lived 14 
blocks from the twin towers. And when they came down, I thought that 
the world had ended.  And I remember walking around in a daze for 
weeks.  And Mayor Giuliani had said to the city, "You've got to get 
back to normal. 
We've got to show that things can change and get back to what they 
were."

And one day I was coming out of my building, and on my stoop, was a 
man who was crouched over, and he appeared to be in deep thought. And 
as I got closer to him I realized, he was playing with himself. And 
that's when I thought, "You know what, we're gonna be OK."

Thank you. Congratulations. I honor you.  Good Night.

-- Jon Stewart





From FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com  Tue Jun  1 13:59:22 2004
From: FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:59:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] poets censored in Albuquerque public school
Message-ID: <196.2a590889.2dee1dfa@aol.com>

> >
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Opinion/Editorial
> > HARD LESSONS FROM POETRY CLASS: SPEECH IS FREE UNLESS IT'S CRITICAL
> > >
> > >The Daytona Beach News-Journal 15 May 2004
> > > By BILL HILL
> >
> >  *Hill is a retired News-Journal reporter.
> >
> > Bill Nevins, a New Mexico high school teacher and personal friend,
was
> fired
> > last year and classes in poetry and the poetry club at Rio
> > Rancho High School were permanently terminated. It had nothing to do
with
> > obscenity, but it had everything to do with extremist politics.
> > The "Slam Team" was a group of teenage poets who asked Nevins to
serve
as
> > faculty adviser to their club. The teens, mostly shy youngsters,
were
> taught
> > to read their poetry aloud and before audiences. Rio Rancho High
School
> gave
> > the Slam Team access to the school's closed-circuit television once
a
week
> > and the poets thrived.
> >     In March 2003, a teenage girl named Courtney presented one of
her
> poems
> > before an audience at Barnes & Noble bookstore in Albuquerque, then
read
> the
> > poem live on the school's closed-circuit television channel.  A
school
> > military liaison and the high school principal accused the girl of
being
> > "un-American" because she criticized the war in Iraq and the Bush
> > administration's failure to give substance to its "No child left
behind"
> > education policy.
> > The girl's mother, also a teacher, was ordered by the principal to
destroy
> > the child's poetry. The mother refused and may lose her job.
> > Bill Nevins was suspended for not censoring the poetry of his
students.
> > Remember, there is no obscenity to be found in any of the poetry. He
was
> > later fired by the principal.  After firing Nevins and terminating
the
> > teaching and reading of poetry in the school, the principal and the
> military
> > liaison read a poem of their own as they raised the flag outside the
> school.
> > When the principal had the flag at full staff, he applauded the
action
> he'd
> > taken in concert with the military liaison.
> > Then to all students and faculty who did not share his political
opinions,
> > the principal shouted: "Shut your faces." What a wonderful lesson he
gave
> > those 3,000 students at the largest public high school in New
Mexico.
In
> > his mind, only certain opinions are to be allowed.
> > But more was to come. Posters done by art students were ordered torn
down,
> > even though none was termed obscene. Some were satirical,
> > implicating a national policy that had led us into war. Art teachers
who
> > refused to rip down the posters on display in their classrooms were
not
> > given contracts to return to the school in this current school year.
> > The message is plain. Critical thinking, questioning of public
policies
> and
> > freedom of speech are not to be allowed to anyone who does not
> > share the thinking of the school principal.
> > The teachers union has been joined in a legal action against the
school
by
> > the National Writers Union, headquartered in New York City. NWU's
at-large
> > representative Samantha Clark lives and works in Albuquerque.  The
> American
> > Civil Liberties Union has become the legal arm of the lawsuit
pending in
> > federal court.
> > Meanwhile, Nevins applied for a teaching post in another school and
was
> > offered the job but he can't go to work until Rio Rancho's principal
> > sends the new school Nevins' credentials. The principal has refused
to
do
> > so, and that adds yet another issue to the lawsuit, which is
awaiting a
> > trial date.
> > While students are denied poetry readings, poetry clubs and classes
in
> > poetry, Nevins works elsewhere and writes his own poetry.
> > Writers and editors who have spent years translating essays, films,
poems,
> > scientific articles and books by Iranian, North Korean and Sudanese
> authors
> > have been warned not to do so by the U.S. Treasury Department under
> penalty
> > of fine and imprisonment. Publishers and film producers are not
allowed
to
> > edit works authored by writers in those nations. The Bush
administration
> > contends doing so has the effect of trading with the enemy, despite
a
1988
> > law that exempts published materials from sanction under trade
rules.
> > Robert Bovenschulte, president of the American Chemical Society, is
> > challenging the rule interpretation by violating it to edit into
English
> > several scientific papers from Iran.
> > Are book burnings next?
> >
> > PLEASE CIRCULATE WIDELY
> >
> > A war is just if there is no alternative, and the resort  to arms is
> > legitimate if they represent your last hope." (Livy)
> > >--
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun  1 13:59:32 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:59:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  three for Memorial Day
References: <BCDF8722.97E0%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01d501c44802$33138bf0$64efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I really like the Bronk poem.  "Grave joy" might describe a lot of his
work,
> come to think of it.  Bronk goes in my imaginary anthology of Neglected
> Oddball Poets of the 20th Century.
>
> The Cummings I find nigh unreadable, I'm afraid, though I liked the poem
> when I was 17.  Whether he's being a sentimental lovebird or a political
> satirist, how amazingly ham-fisted he can be. . . .  But thanks for the
> memories, anyway!

Hey, what kind of literary terrorism is this?!  But I don't like the poem,
either--and never liked it.  Cummings often irritates me when he tells us
what's what morally, even when I agree with his point of view.  By chance,
just before I was going to write this post, I read a post from a friend of
mine that called my attention to another Cummings poem. It's at

            http://hollyswall.tripod.com/36.htm.

It's really the same kind of thing, but much better, I think.

As for Bronk, I remember reading him from time to time and liking what I
read enough to read his poems when they come up on the net or in anthologies
or magazines--but not enough to seek them out.  I wasn't knocked out by the
one posted, though.  Something about dead men, I think. . . .

As to the Rukeyser, I guess I'm just too self-centered to get worked up
about a few wars here and there, and too interested in what poetry can do to
have any patience with poems that do little beyond expressing a point of
view, even if the point of view were less conventional than hers.

So, two outright denigrations of poems for me to only one for Prof. Graham.
Anyone disagree that I'm still New-Poetry's top literary terrorist?

--Bob G.




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun  1 18:03:38 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:03:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  three for Memorial Day
Message-ID: <1cb.2278aa1a.2dee573a@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/1/2004 2:01:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> As to the Rukeyser, I guess I'm just too self-centered to get worked up
> about a few wars here and there, and too interested in what poetry can do to
> have any patience with poems that do little beyond expressing a point of
> view, even if the point of view were less conventional than hers.
> 
> So, two outright denigrations of poems for me to only one for Prof. Graham.
> Anyone disagree that I'm still New-Poetry's top literary terrorist?
> 

Bob, I'd say that self-immolation is your one big trick. 
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun  1 19:03:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 19:03:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  three for Memorial Day
References: <1cb.2278aa1a.2dee573a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02ab01c4482c$ba2c1ab0$64efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

As to the Rukeyser, I guess I'm just too self-centered to get worked up about a few wars here and there, and too interested in what poetry can do to have any patience with poems that do little beyond expressing a point of view, even if the point of view were less conventional than hers.

So, two outright denigrations of poems for me to only one for Prof. Graham.  Anyone disagree that I'm still New-Poetry's top literary terrorist?



  Bob, I'd say that self-immolation is your one big trick. 
  Finnegan 

  Thanks, James.  Well, except that I have a lot more than one big trick.

  --Bob G.
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From kellogg at duke.edu  Tue Jun  1 19:12:13 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Tue,  1 Jun 2004 19:12:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Hedin, "The Old Liberators"
Message-ID: <1086131533.40bd0d4dcd160@webmail.duke.edu>

The Old Liberators
   
Of all the people in the mornings at the mall,
It's the old liberators I like best,
Those veterans of the Bulge, Anzio, or Monte Cassino
I see lost in Automotive or back in Home Repair,
Bored among the paints and power tools.
Or the really old ones, the ones who are going fast,
Who keep dozing off in the little orchards
Of shade under the distant skylights.
All around, from one bright rack to another,
Their wives stride big as generals,
Their handbags bulging like ripe fruit.
They are almost all gone now,
And with them they are taking the flak
And fire storms, the names of the old bombing runs.
Each day a little more of their memory goes out,
Darkens the way a house darkens,
Its rooms quietly filling with evening,
Until nothing but the wind lifts the lace curtains,
The wind bearing through the empty rooms
The rich far off scent of gardens
Where just now, this morning,
Light is falling on the wild philodendrons.  
 
-- Robert Hedin



David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun  1 22:28:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:28:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem About American Poetry by Daniel Bouchard
References: <1086131533.40bd0d4dcd160@webmail.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <036601c44849$548bff50$64efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

American poetry I've given you all and now nothing has been made to 
happen.
American poetry ten bucks per book, on average,
    June 1, 2004
I can't stand my short lines.
American poetry when will we end the avant-garde vs mainstream war?
Go fuck yourself with your perfect bound.
I don't feel good don't interview me.
I won't dislike my poem till I'm in my right mind.
American poetry when will you be less anaseptic?
When will you take off my clothes?
When will you stop looking at yourself in a convex mirror?
When will you be worthy of your dozens of Patchenites?
American poetry why are your libraries full of nervous children?
American poetry when will you export your writing software to China?
I'm quick to your insane demands.
When can I go into the Barnes and Noble and buy what I
         want with my reputation?
American poetry after all it is you and I who are perfect not
         the nonliterary world.
Your unofficial publicity machines are too much for me.
You made me want to be an English professor.
There must be some other way to settle your hash.
Jack Spicer is a book prize I don't think he'll come back
         it's sinister.
Are you being sinister or is this some form of impractical
         joke?
I'm trying to come up with a point, if not a manifesto.
I refuse to give up the microphone.
American poetry push harder till I know what I'm doing.
American poetry all the plum positions are taken.
I haven't read Poets and Writers for months, everyday
         somebody wins a prize for murdering verse.
American poetry I feel sentimental about the Fugitive poets.
American poetry I used to be a novelist when I was a kid
         I'm not sorry.
I blow smoke up the instructor's ass every chance I get.
I sit in my study for days on end and stare at the collected poems
         on the bookshelves.
When I give a reading I get drunk and never get paid.
My mind is made up to start trouble.
You should have seen me reading Ginsberg.
My adviser thinks I'm perfectly uptight.
I won't say homogenous.
I have a vibrating cosmos and a cosmic vibrator.
American poetry I still haven't told you what you didn't do for 
Professor
         Makeastir after he came over from alternative presses.

Are you going to let your poetical life be run by
         Silliman's Blog?
I'm obsessed by Silliman's Blog.
I read it every day, every hour in fact; sometimes more than that; I'm
reading it now.
Its comment box exchanges challenge me and push my mind to the deepest
         depths of critical thinking.
I read it in the open at a table in a cafe on my laptop where the 
chicks
can dig me.
It's always telling me about poetic lineage. Projective poets
         have lineage. Black Mountain poets have lineage.
         Everybody's got lineage but me.
It occurs to me that I am American poetry.
I am blogging to myself again.

The Iowa Workshop is rising against me.
I haven't got an endowed chairman's chance.
I'd better consider my poetical resources.
My poetical resources consist of two chapbooks of
         disjointed lyrics and dozens of bookmarked blogs an unreadable
         coterie literature that goes 200 saddle-stitched miles an hour
         and twenty-five-thousand in student loans.
I say nothing about my social networks nor the six or so
         panels who live in my web reports
         under the weight of five hundred applicants.
I have abolished the MFA programs of all state colleges, Naropa
         is the next to go.
My ambition is to be NEA chairman despite the fact that
         I'm a moron, and a partisan.

American poetry how can I flarf a holy litany in your mordant
         mood?
I will continue like the Vatican my parodies as
         constant as its hypocrisy more so they
         don't need much to eat.
American poetry I will sell you bandwith $2500 a width $500
         down on your old width
American poetry free Bob Perelman
American poetry save the Breadload Conference
American poetry the Poetics List must not die
American poetry I am the New Formalist boys.
American poetry when I was twenty-seven sommun took me to
         a writers conference they sold us T-shirts a
         T-shirt per ticket a ticket costs fifty bucks and the
         poetry were free everybody was cordial and
         sentimental about the 1970s it was all so sin-
         cere you have no idea what a good party the
         poetry was in 1995.
America you're in war up to your eyeball.
America poetry it's them unread barbarians.
Them slam poets them writing students and them tv-watchers.
         And them writing students.
The MFA wants to eat us alive. The MFA's tenure and book
         mad. He wants to take our dollars from out our
         accounts.
Her wants to grab Poetry (Chicago). Him needs a widely taught
         Anthology. Him wants our checks in book contests.
That no good. Ugh. Him make poets read Norton.
         Him need bigger audience. Hah.
American poetry this is kinda serious.
American poetry this is the impression I get from looking
         at the Internet.
American poetry: is this a wreck?
I'll letter write right down to the nob.
It's true I don't want to be a "visiting writer" or turn tricks
         for blurbs as we swap seats on the gravy train. I'm shy and
         socially awkward anyway.
American poetry I'm writing my own ticket to a meal.




 ><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Daniel Bouchard
bouchard at mit.edu
<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>> 




From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed Jun  2 08:28:01 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:28:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: new yorker fiction selection process
Message-ID: <1cb.2284840a.2def21d1@aol.com>

apologies for this long-ish post, but the link to the *times* requires 
registration.

wondering what the math applied to the poems in the *ny* would reveal?

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> New Yorker Fiction, by the Numbers
> By DAVID CARR
> 
> Published: June 1, 2004
> 
> When most students in the Department of Operations Research and Financial
> Engineering at Princeton construct a senior thesis, they hew to studies of
> arcane derivatives, options and other financial instruments, some with an
> eye toward the potentially lucrative job market awaiting them on Wall 
> Street.
> 
> Katherine L. Milkman, 22, decided to turn rigorous mathematical analytics
> on an even more mystical topic: the selection of short fiction for The New
> Yorker. In applying scientific metrics to an ineffable process, Ms. Milkman
> will no doubt set off a small, discreet tempest among a cadre of authors
> who would gladly saw off their (nonwriting) hand to be the next Jhumpa
> Lahiri, a young writer who won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 2000 for
> her book of short stories after her work was plucked from the pile by the
> editors at that weekly magazine.
> 
> Ms. Milkman, who has a minor in American studies, read 442 stories printed
> in The New Yorker from Oct. 5, 1992, to Sept. 17, 2001, and built a
> substantial database. She then constructed a series of rococo mathematical
> tests to discern, among other things, whether certain fiction editors at
> the magazine had a specific impact on the type of fiction that was
> published, the sex of authors and the race of characters. The study was
> long on statistics and short on epiphanies: one main conclusion was that
> male editors generally publish male authors who write about male characters
> who are supported by female characters.
> 
> The study's confirmation of the obvious left some wondering why Ms.
> Milkman, who graduates this morning from Princeton with high honors, went
> about constructing such an intricate wristwatch in order to tell the time,
> but others admire her pluck and willingness to cross disciplines in a way
> that wraps the left and right brain neatly into one project. Her adviser on
> the project, Prof. Carmona, was thrilled by the concept and amazed by
> the resulting thesis.
> 
> "Katy had to completely design the project from scratch," he said. "She
> didn't collect the data, she created it and did a very rigorous
> quantitative analysis of all figures that she measured." She received an
> A-plus, her thesis won an American studies competition, and the current
> editor of New Yorker fiction, Deborah Treisman, found her work engaging, if
> not material to the task at hand.
> 
> "She gives you a new way of looking at these stories which would not have
> occurred to me," Ms. Treisman said. "Do I walk away thinking, `Now I have
> to think about gender and race and location in selecting stories?' No."
> After harvesting the gossip about the tendentiousness of one editor or
> another ? there is much to choose from ? the thesis segues to the
> "Kolmogorov-Smirnov Two-Sample Goodness of Fit Test" and the "Pearson
> Correlation Coefficient Test."
> 
> "I was personally riveted by the whole thing," said Roger Angell, a writer
> at The New Yorker who worked as a fiction editor during part of the period
> scrutinized by Ms. Milkman. He spent a significant amount of time talking
> to Ms. Milkman and helped connect her with other people at the magazine. He
> was charmed by the results but worries they may sow confusion.
> "Some unpublished writers are going to read this and say, `I now know what
> I have to do to get published in The New Yorker,' and it's not helpful in
> that way," he said. "In the end we published what we liked."
> 
> In applying numerically based analysis to literary matters, Ms. Milkman's
> work was something of a micro-execution of the controversial text-free
> literary investigations of Prof. Franco Moretti of Stanford, in which he
> examined the broad scope of literary history by the numbers, tracking the
> birth and denouement of various genres based on statistics. Longtime
> adherents to canonical literary thought were appalled by Professor
> Moretti's by-the-numbers approach to the study of literature, something Ms.
> Milkman came to be familiar with.
> 
> "Many people thought it was completely idiotic," she said. "But when they
> found out I would actually be reading the stories, they were more
> understanding."
> 
> The 116-page thesis is dense with footnotes and data addenda. (A CD-ROM of
> the data was appended in case someone is interested in testing her
> results.) The main inquiry is how a change in the head of the fiction
> department ? from Charles McGrath to Bill Buford ? affected the stories
> published in The New Yorker, perhaps the most sought-after real estate in
> the short fiction world. (A secondary question of whether a change in
> editor from Tina Brown to David Remnick had measurable effects came back a
> resounding no.)
> 
> In analyzing such matters, Ms. Milkman has brought statistical rigor to one
> of the more intense parlor games in the literary world. Critics have long
> suggested that under Mr. Buford ? who took over the magazine's fiction
> department in 1995 when Mr. McGrath came to The New York Times, and left to
> write books in 2002 ? female authors were about as welcome as they would be
> at the clubhouse of Augusta National.
> 
> According to Ms. Milkman, the number of male authors rose to 70 percent
> under Mr. Buford, compared with 57 percent under Mr. McGrath. She also
> found that Mr. Buford was much more likely to publish stories set in the
> New York area: the number of stories set in the mid-Atlantic region rose to
> 37 percent under Mr. Buford, compared with 19 percent under Mr. McGrath.
> The study also found that the first-person voice rose mightily under Mr.
> Buford, which may reflect the growth of memoir in the 90's more than
> anything else.
> 
> Under both editors the fiction in the magazine took as its major
> preoccupations sex, relationships, death, family and travel. Mr. Buford was
> relatively more interested in sex, a topic in 47 percent of the stories he
> published as opposed to 35 percent under Mr. McGrath. Mr. McGrath's authors
> tended to deal with one of the occasional consequences of that act,
> children, more frequently than Mr. Buford's writers: 36 percent under Mr.
> McGrath, 26 percent under Mr. Buford. (History, homosexuality and politics
> all tied for the attentions of Mr. Buford at a lowly 4 percent.)
> "As a fiction editor, you are really on the receiving end of other people's
> agenda," Mr. Buford said. "You choose from what you are sent."
> After a brief look at the study, he chose to see the glass as half full.
> "The best thing that came out of it for me was not whether you could tell a
> difference," he added, "but that from beginning to end, the stories were
> good and fun to read."
> 
> Among Ms. Milkman's least shocking findings was that characters in New
> Yorker fiction tend to live in the same places New Yorker readers do, not
> the United States as a whole. (One could imagine if the same analytics were
> applied to New Yorker cartoons, where the Upper East Side is more robustly
> represented than all the middle places put together.)
> In a conclusion that will probably cause few readers to spill their evening
> tea, she states that "quantitative analyses revealed that New Yorker
> characters are not representative of Americans or New York State residents
> in terms of their race."
> 
> "It is amazing and dazzling, and somewhat incomprehensible at some point,"
> said Mr. McGrath, who left The New Yorker to edit The New York Times Book
> Review and is now a writer at large for the newspaper. "I think that it
> really suggests that it is best for editors not to think too much about
> what they do."
> 
> Ms. Milkman is by all accounts, including her own, a normal college
> student. Although she was once ranked in the Top 200 of junior tennis
> players in the United States, she set down the racket to devote more
> attention to various statistical investigations. But she still has time for
> other pursuits. She is a member of the Ivy eating club, the most notorious
> of Princeton's social clubs, renowned for its hard-drinking ways, and her
> teachers said she was a pleasure to deal with amid a scrum of careerist
> young students.
> 
> She is pretty driven," said William Gleason, an associate professor of
> English and her American studies adviser. "But she is bright and eager,
> someone who likes to grab a topic and run with it, not just for the
> academic result ? which is grades in our world ? but because she is really
> curious."
> 
> Next fall she will attend Harvard Business School, seeking a doctorate in
> information technology and management.
> 
> "I wanted to do something that involved reading, and I read some amazing
> work," she said of her thesis. "Students tend to come up with a thesis that
> will trigger the interest of interviewers, but since Princeton grads don't
> have trouble getting jobs, that seemed sort of silly to me."
> 
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *****************
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From: Thom Tammaro <tammaro at mnstate.edu>
Subject: Re: new yorker selection process (fwd)
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Wed Jun  2 10:48:13 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 07:48:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] breaking news
In-Reply-To: <200406011601.i51G13XE006401@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040602074538.00b8f158@incoming.verizon.net>


       Little Haiku

  there he
    goes
   again

  self-love
    stinks
the place

   terror:
   three
year old

     in a
   man's
clothing
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jun  2 11:27:20 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 11:27:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: new yorker fiction selection process
In-Reply-To: <1cb.2284840a.2def21d1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40BDB998.19657.EBC845@localhost>

On 2 Jun 2004 at 8:28, Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
>     New Yorker Fiction, by the Numbers
>     By DAVID CARR
>     Published: June 1, 2004
>     Katherine L. Milkman, 22, decided to turn rigorous mathematical
>     analytics on an even more mystical topic: the selection of short
>     fiction for The New Yorker. In applying scientific metrics to an
>     ineffable process, ...<<

The problem here is the same as it ever was with quantifying things 
not easily quantifiable.

"'Many people thought it was completely idiotic,' [Ms Milkman] said. 
'But when they found out I would actually be reading the stories, 
they were more understanding.'"

How could "actually reading the stories", in the sense, apparently, 
of reading them as stories and not merely as quantifiable words, 
phrases, and such, help quantify them? How would it help at all even 
if the quantification process were a success? What would be the point 
of "actually reading" (by which I infer that she means "for pleasure" 
or "for art") such stories if the idea was to quantify and then 
measure the stories?

"... [Roger Angell] said. 'In the end we published what we liked.'" 
... "Mr. Buford said. ... 'The best thing that came out of it for me 
was not whether you could tell a difference,' he added, 'but that 
from beginning to end, the stories were good and fun to read.'"

Well, of course, the thing that Ms Milkman is really trying to 
quantify is what Angell or Buford or McGrath, or any other editor, 
"likes", isn't it? Isn't the point to quantify the editor's likings 
in order to come to an ability to make accurate predictions within 
some small margin of error?

Marcus






From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun  2 11:52:22 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:52:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hardy
Message-ID: <BCE361E6.98AB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Surely the birthday of Thomas Hardy deserves mention.



In Time of "The Breaking of Nations"

I

Only a man harrowing clods
   In a slow silent walk
With an old horse that stumbles and nods
   Half asleep as they stalk.

II

Only a thin smoke without flame
   From the heaps of couch-grass;
Yet this will go onward the same
   Though Dynasties pass.

III

Yonder a maid and her wight
   Come whispering by:
War's annals will cloud into night
   Ere their story die.

-- Thomas Hardy, 1915.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  2 12:01:01 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:01:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] breaking news
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040602074538.00b8f158@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <010a01c448ba$cf0450e0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Ah, to have inspired such deathless poesy!

--Bob G.

                Little Haiku


           there he 
             goes 
            again


           self-love 
             stinks 
          the place


            terror: 
            three 
          year old


              in a 
            man's 
          clothing 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun  2 12:40:11 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 11:40:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <D2940B4C-B264-11D8-A187-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BCE36D1B.98B7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 5/30/04 1:11 PM, Wendy Battin at wjbat at conncoll.edu wrote:

 Bronk goes in my imaginary anthology of Neglected
>> Oddball Poets of the 20th Century.
> 
> David, if you can use your anthologist's skills to make Bronk better
> known and more widely read, you have a permanent place on my list of
> heroes.  I won't ask about "oddball," since it could only get me into
> trouble.  But who else goes in that anthology?
> 
> And thanks for the Rukeyser, too, Hal.
> 
> Wendy
> 

Wendy, I did say my *imaginary* anthology. . . .  But it's one of my
persistent daydreams, I confess--an anthology of poets who, for one reason
or another, never or too seldom seem to make it into the major anthologies,
despite being as "good" as those so anointed.

I mean, is Kenneth Fearing really not as memorable a a poet as Archibald
MacLeish or John Betjeman?  Etc.  Yet guess who's perpetually in the Norton
antho of Modern Poetry & who isn't?

Naturally, such an anthology would be a hard sell, being by definition a
quixotic effort.  For that reason I've always loved Simic & Strand's old
anthology *Another Republic* for the way it insisted 30 years ago that, yes,
there *were* interesting poets to translate besides Rilke & Neruda.  And I
imagine introduced a lot of Americans to Michaux, Holub, Follain, Amichai,
et al.

"Oddball" is, of course, a term of high praise.

My ever-shifting table of contents would include, among the elders, Bronk,
Garrigue, Fearing, Swenson, Francis, Kees, Abbie Huston Evans, Reznikoff,
McGrath, and Isabella Stuart Gardner, for starters.  (Just among the
Americans.)

Things get much dicier among the younger and/or the still-kicking,
naturally.  But today's possible picks might include, aside from you and me
and a number of NewPoets, Robert Morgan, Madeline DeFrees, Brendan Galvin,
Russell Edson, Linda Gregg, Fred Chappell, Laura Jensen, Melvin Dixon,
Pattiann Rogers, Dennis Finnell, Betsy Sholl, Jack Myers, Mary Koncel . . .
.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  2 13:55:24 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:55:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <BCE36D1B.98B7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <015b01c448ca$c99538d0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>  Bronk goes in my imaginary anthology of Neglected
> >> Oddball Poets of the 20th Century.
> > 
> > David, if you can use your anthologist's skills to make Bronk better
> > known and more widely read, you have a permanent place on my list of
> > heroes.  I won't ask about "oddball," since it could only get me into
> > trouble.  But who else goes in that anthology?
> > 
> > And thanks for the Rukeyser, too, Hal.
> > 
> > Wendy
> > 
> 
> Wendy, I did say my *imaginary* anthology. . . .  But it's one of my
> persistent daydreams, I confess--an anthology of poets who, for one reason
> or another, never or too seldom seem to make it into the major anthologies,
> despite being as "good" as those so anointed.
> 
> I mean, is Kenneth Fearing really not as memorable a a poet as Archibald
> MacLeish or John Betjeman?  Etc.  Yet guess who's perpetually in the Norton
> antho of Modern Poetry & who isn't?
> 
> Naturally, such an anthology would be a hard sell, being by definition a
> quixotic effort.  For that reason I've always loved Simic & Strand's old
> anthology *Another Republic* for the way it insisted 30 years ago that, yes,
> there *were* interesting poets to translate besides Rilke & Neruda.  And I
> imagine introduced a lot of Americans to Michaux, Holub, Follain, Amichai,
> et al.
> 
> "Oddball" is, of course, a term of high praise.
> 
> My ever-shifting table of contents would include, among the elders, Bronk,
> Garrigue, Fearing, Swenson, Francis, Kees, Abbie Huston Evans, Reznikoff,
> McGrath, and Isabella Stuart Gardner, for starters.  (Just among the
> Americans.)
> 
> Things get much dicier among the younger and/or the still-kicking,
> naturally.  But today's possible picks might include, aside from you and me
> and a number of NewPoets, Robert Morgan, Madeline DeFrees, Brendan Galvin,
> Russell Edson, Linda Gregg, Fred Chappell, Laura Jensen, Melvin Dixon,
> Pattiann Rogers, Dennis Finnell, Betsy Sholl, Jack Myers, Mary Koncel . . .


Just make sure not to include any members of  neglected oddball schools of poetry, David.  

Thanks, by the way, for Hardy's (sorta) defense of my take on war.

--Bob G.
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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Wed Jun  2 14:12:36 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:12:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <015b01c448ca$c99538d0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <6D3AF7A2-B4C0-11D8-9A32-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Wednesday, June 2, 2004, at 01:55 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Just make sure not to include any members of? neglected oddball 
> schools of poetry, David.

Have you ever watched film of schooling behavior in fish?  the 
not-quite instantaneous alignments, the ripple of light that travels 
across the whole when the first fish gets a message?

Wendy



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Only the defeated do not dance.
--Miyazaki
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Wed Jun  2 02:26:45 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:26:45 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] 4. Re: breaking news (Bob Grumman)
In-Reply-To: <200406021601.i52G13XE013378@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200406021601.i52G13XE013378@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100303bce3193770ef@[204.215.201.112]>


>
>        Little Haiku
>
>   there he
>     goes
>    again
>
>   self-love
>     stinks
>the place
>
>    terror:
>    three
>year old
>
>      in a
>    man's
>clothing




According to the RadLib rules of list etiquette, ad hominem attacks 
on contributors are verboten.  No matter how clever the epithet, no 
matter if couched as a Zen master insight, it is against the rules to 
tear into another and seek to cause others to speak against the 
fellow out of enthusiasm for the genius of one's conceit, even though 
that conceit is based on the originality of Ronald Wilson Reagan's 
(Republican, Ca.) outwitting of then President Carter half an age ago.

Poets of an infinitely detached mindsight might note that when 
Congresspersons T. Kennedy and Pelosi denounce the Commander in Chief 
in language that mirrors that of the Terrorist IslamoFascist Enemy, 
no call for censure rings through the halls of the Capitol.  The 
asservation of Lincoln, Republican, Illinois, goes unheeded:

>"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage 
>morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be 
>arrested, exiled, or hanged."
>-President Abraham Lincoln


Why?  In this schizoid two-headed age, like a 1960's Japanese S.F. 
movie monster, America's Gemini horoskopos has come of age.  The 
DemKrats are not a minority party, no, in their mInD(s) they are a 
government in exile, seeking internationist support for a retakeover.

Thus, even in the smallest things, we see the same arrogation of 
privlege.  Imagine if this professor were portrayed as one of the 
sweet insipid cats of his own fantasies.  Oh, the outcry!  Oh, the 
protest!  Oh, the caterwauling!  Take it up the food chain. If 
Senator Santorum were to accuse Scion T. Chappaquidick Kennedy, of 
the professor's state, that he was undermining the morale of men and 
women risking their lives for his liberty, and to throw Whip Pelosi 
of the Castro District into the mix of winning insult, demands would 
mount from the New York Times for the Pennsylvania Senator's 
impeachment.

The only reason why Poet/Critic Bob Grumman can get a fair hearing, 
to take his vocabulary of literary criticism on a test drive, is 
because there are barely enough of us of the Idiosyncratic Party, 
whose patron saint is Gordon Cairnie, Thomas Hardy's champion, to 
call your bluff, Mr. Liberally-minded pro-Chomsky Professor.


R I C H A R D  D I L L O N

ELEMENOPE Productions


We are at the anniversary of the astral exiting of Mary Jo Kopechne. 
Astral means the only way to escape the vehicle.











-- 
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From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu  Wed Jun  2 14:35:59 2004
From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed,  2 Jun 2004 14:35:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Review of my book, MS, in AUFGABE
In-Reply-To: <a05100303bce3193770ef@[204.215.201.112]>
References: <200406021601.i52G13XE013378@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100303bce3193770ef@[204.215.201.112]>
Message-ID: <1086201359.40be1e0f09f5b@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Hi all,

Kasey Mohammad's review of my book, MS, in the latest AUFGABE is now online at:

http://www.litmuspress.org/aufgabe/issue3/mohammad.htm

Book's available everywhere.

Yrs, Mike.


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Wed Jun  2 14:42:17 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:42:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 4. Re: breaking news (Bob Grumman)
In-Reply-To: <a05100303bce3193770ef@[204.215.201.112]>
Message-ID: <92BA9B66-B4C4-11D8-9A32-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Wednesday, June 2, 2004, at 02:26 AM, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
> The asservation of Lincoln, Republican, Illinois, goes unheeded:
> "Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage 
> morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be 
> arrested, exiled, or hanged."
> -President Abraham Lincoln

So if an administration manages to keep us in permanent wartime, we 
lose all right to disagree?  Good principle.  It's working beautifully.

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  2 15:26:44 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:26:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 4. Re: breaking news (Bob Grumman)
In-Reply-To: <92BA9B66-B4C4-11D8-9A32-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEMMIMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    So if an administration manages to keep us in permanent wartime, we 
{    lose all right to disagree?  Good principle.  It's working beautifully.
{    
{    Wendy

Remember that zone of permanent war in Orwell's
*1984*? The map's pretty much the same.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  2 15:32:26 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:32:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <BCE36D1B.98B7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <40BE2B49.49E8BC59@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:
> 
> Things get much dicier among the younger and/or the still-kicking,
> naturally.  But today's possible picks might include, aside from you and me
> and a number of NewPoets, Robert Morgan, Madeline DeFrees, Brendan Galvin,
> Russell Edson, Linda Gregg, Fred Chappell, Laura Jensen, Melvin Dixon,
> Pattiann Rogers, Dennis Finnell, Betsy Sholl, Jack Myers, Mary Koncel . . .

Curious why you'd list most of those as oddball and/or neglected.  Most
of them get their fair share of page space and most are what I'd
consider mainstream, the major exceptions being Mary Koncel and Laura
Jensen, who I'd consider neglected but not oddball.

- Jim


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun  2 16:01:12 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:01:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <40BE2B49.49E8BC59@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BCE39C38.98EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/2/04 2:32 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> David Graham wrote:
>> 
>> Things get much dicier among the younger and/or the still-kicking,
>> naturally.  But today's possible picks might include, aside from you and me
>> and a number of NewPoets, Robert Morgan, Madeline DeFrees, Brendan Galvin,
>> Russell Edson, Linda Gregg, Fred Chappell, Laura Jensen, Melvin Dixon,
>> Pattiann Rogers, Dennis Finnell, Betsy Sholl, Jack Myers, Mary Koncel . . .
> 
> Curious why you'd list most of those as oddball and/or neglected.  Most
> of them get their fair share of page space and most are what I'd
> consider mainstream, the major exceptions being Mary Koncel and Laura
> Jensen, who I'd consider neglected but not oddball.
> 
> - Jim

As I noted, things get dicey the closer you get to the present.

But not to make too big a deal of all this, and certainly not to get into
the whole question of taxonomy--it's a personal list of poets I think don't
have the reputation they deserve, including some who have been publishing
for decades without attracting Helen Vendler's attention while she puffs the
likes of Dave Smith.

One criterion I had in mind for those poets listed was absence from the
*Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry*, 2nd edition, and in fact from many if
not most of the popular teaching anthologies, such as the Poulin/Waters
*Contemporary American Poetry*, 7e.

I take it as a given that a term like "neglected" is utterly relative, as is
"mainstream."

About my perverse use of the word "oddball" as praise, well, I could quote
Marianne Moore, I suppose:

"Voltaire objected to those who said in enigmas what others had said
naturally; and we agree; yet we must have the courage of our peculiarities."



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  2 16:09:13 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:09:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Review of my book, MS, in AUFGABE
References: <200406021601.i52G13XE013378@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100303bce3193770ef@[204.215.201.112]> <1086201359.40be1e0f09f5b@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV66b5s0PZsC00023472@hotmail.com>

Congratulations, Mike,

Though I know thee not.

If you got someone else to publish your book, that's quite an achievement.

The reviewer was pretty cheeky, enjoyed his take, especially the hidden
Eliot quote at the end from LG: "raid on the inarticulate."

But "Depunds?"

LOL!

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 1:35 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Review of my book, MS, in AUFGABE


| Hi all,
|
| Kasey Mohammad's review of my book, MS, in the latest AUFGABE is now
online at:
|
| http://www.litmuspress.org/aufgabe/issue3/mohammad.htm
|
| Book's available everywhere.
|
| Yrs, Mike.
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  2 16:11:48 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:11:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Poetry vs. Cars
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV9Xu98sMD9x000262f4@hotmail.com>

Dear Bob,

Thought the Bouchard piece good stand-up.

I feel slightly embarrassed about posting another poem by of mine, and I
don't usually write in a Ginsbergian fashion, but thought this a nice
riposte to Bouchard's piece-- a little more pro-American by getting around
the poetry to another kind of visual poetry-- cars.

I have enjoyed all the poems posted recently, Hardy, Stafford, cummings,
etc.  That Spacks attacked you in poetry, however, makes me wonder why you
don't respond in the same medium.  Ka-Ching!

--CE



American Cars

I hate American poetry but I love American cars because they are really
American poetry, like the dual rockets high on the fins of a '60 Cadillac

Or take the '58 Buick Roadmaster so chrome filigreed paint is unnecessary
except as garnish

Or a '57 DeSoto with the fat fins diagonal to the body especially in pink
two-tone

Or the '59 T-Bird with four tuck-and-roll bucket seats trimmed in chrome
which made the rear seats resemble ashtrays

Or the big Lincolns with suicide doors, sweet landboats insulating you from
any hint of road feel

Or the Nash Rambler bathtubs and the Hudson cockroaches and the Edsel with
its revolutionary pushbutton transmission that Chrysler later copied

Or take the 1976 El Dorado in red metal-flake with a white vinyl top, fully
loaded and bloated and obscenely long, eight miles to the gallon

Or a '65 Bonneville with the rear mud flaps making the "Body by Fisher"
entirely blimpoid for no particular reason, with L-shaped tail lights

And the Pacer, my God, George Jetson would have loved one of these bubbles
with their revolutionary hatchback feature and plenty of headroom and side
vision (though most people considered them butt-ugly though not quite
Edseloid).

Other countries may manufacture vehicles but by God we make cars and cars
they are not some ergonomic miracle of efficiency generated by a wind tunnel
and tested on some Autobahn by niggardly engineers in aerodynamic crewcuts
more interested in performance than salvation who will never understand our
American soul and why our cars gotta be too much

What with our imaginations overloaded by circus hyperbole, Barnum and Bunyan
and Twain and the car our tangible technological proof of the equality
promised when Andy Jackson and his redneck friends tore up the White House

Because the only way to insure a classless society is to give everybody a
car, the communists couldn't do it

And to call our cars excessively bourgeois is like calling dessert
redundant

We're never too proud to ask for seconds

Unlike the restraint imposed by some British boy's school where they all
bugger each other and then wear the same regimental ties all their lives to
remind them of their youth

Give me whitewalls and waffle grilles and the black rubber missiles on the
bumpers of a '53 Fleetwood or the airplane snout of a '49 Studebaker

And I don't care how many miles to the gallon our cars get because gas is
cheap and though America is big if you want to travel in style

You gotta have some style, so isn't it worth the sacrifice and what does
form have to do with function anyway and what was the Bauhaus and who cares



(Lid Magazine, 2000)

http://www.lionessden.com/lid/chaffin.html


From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Wed Jun  2 16:42:06 2004
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:42:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hardy
In-Reply-To: <BCE361E6.98AB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BCE361E6.98AB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040602153231.01ba74c0@mail.ilstu.edu>

         Thanks to David Graham for noting Hardy's birthday (his 
164th).  NewPoetry listers who like Hardy may want to know about two 
websites: (1) the Thomas Hardy Association page, from whence one can 
navigate to a dozen or more Hardy-related sites devoted to his fiction, his 
life, his poetry, etc.:

                 http://www.yale.edu/hardysoc/Welcome/welcomet.htm

And perhaps more interesting to this group, the Thomas Hardy Poem of the 
Month site--a discussion group that has been fostering talk about Hardy's 
poems for about 6 years now.  At the present time, the topic is Hardy's 
epitaphs, epigrams, and other pithy sayings in verse, but in the past we've 
talked about his female-narrated poems, his elegies for his first wife, his 
memorial poems, and numbers of other sub-groupings in his work.  A couple 
of years' worth of our discussions are posted at the site.  Here's the URL:

                 http://www.ilstu.edu/~wwmorgan/poemonth.htm

Since I run the site, I'm in a pretty good position to answer questions!

                                                         best,

                                                         Bill Morgan

         At 10:52 AM 6/2/2004, you wrote:
>Surely the birthday of Thomas Hardy deserves mention.
>
>
>
>In Time of "The Breaking of Nations"
>
>I
>
>Only a man harrowing clods
>    In a slow silent walk
>With an old horse that stumbles and nods
>    Half asleep as they stalk.
>
>II
>
>Only a thin smoke without flame
>    From the heaps of couch-grass;
>Yet this will go onward the same
>    Though Dynasties pass.
>
>III
>
>Yonder a maid and her wight
>    Come whispering by:
>War's annals will cloud into night
>    Ere their story die.
>
>-- Thomas Hardy, 1915.
>
>
>
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  2 16:58:25 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:58:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <6D3AF7A2-B4C0-11D8-9A32-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <01b601c448e4$5c1b8fb0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  On Wednesday, June 2, 2004, at 01:55 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

    Just make sure not to include any members of  neglected oddball schools of poetry, David.


  Have you ever watched film of schooling behavior in fish? the not-quite instantaneous alignments, the ripple of light that travels across the whole when the first fish gets a message? 

  Wendy

  I haven't, Wendy.  Great image.  Not sure how  it connects to what I said, though.

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  2 17:08:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:08:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] American Poetry vs. Cars
References: <BAY18-DAV9Xu98sMD9x000262f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01d301c448e5$cd8dcef0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Now, you've gone and really done it, CE: my main mode of transportation is a bicycle.

Note: I would never have the courage to take on a master poet like Spacks in poetry.

--Bob G.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Jun  2 17:25:11 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:25:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement and horn toots--
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEMPIMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Announcement and assorted horn toots--

Lynda and I are in countdown mode for Saturday's departure for
Baltimore and a Monday flight to Mexico--San Miguel de Allende,
where we'll be for most of the summer. We'll be back in NYC around
August 22 or so--God willin' and the crick don't rise.

This will be a working trip, so the laptops will travel with us; but online 
activity will be sharply reduced, though we'll check personal messages
in some of San Miguel's internet cafes from time to time. And I'll probably
still get list mail most of the time.

A couple things of mine have just gone online, so I thought I'd let you
know about them now. Both require Acrobat Reader 4.0 or better,
free from Acrobat at http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/.

The first item is The Sonnet Project, now available for reading and
downloading from Jukka-Pekka Kervinen's xPress(ed) [http://www.xpressed.org/].

The second is a poem called "Ambulance," which was published in the current
issue of Bellevue Literary Review and is now up on the BLR website at 
http://www.blreview.org/issue_spring2004/index.htm.

Enjoy! And have a great summer.

Hasta luego,

Hal         "Cross / a border every day, and leave
                your luggage in the station."
                                  --Wendy Battin 
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Jun  2 20:08:32 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:08:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <BCE39C38.98EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <03e401c448fe$e9b4f4a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'd put Donald Finkel on your list, and Nancy Willard.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets


> on 6/2/04 2:32 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > David Graham wrote:
> >>
> >> Things get much dicier among the younger and/or the still-kicking,
> >> naturally.  But today's possible picks might include, aside from you
and me
> >> and a number of NewPoets, Robert Morgan, Madeline DeFrees, Brendan
Galvin,
> >> Russell Edson, Linda Gregg, Fred Chappell, Laura Jensen, Melvin Dixon,
> >> Pattiann Rogers, Dennis Finnell, Betsy Sholl, Jack Myers, Mary Koncel .
. .
> >
> > Curious why you'd list most of those as oddball and/or neglected.  Most
> > of them get their fair share of page space and most are what I'd
> > consider mainstream, the major exceptions being Mary Koncel and Laura
> > Jensen, who I'd consider neglected but not oddball.
> >
> > - Jim
>
> As I noted, things get dicey the closer you get to the present.
>
> But not to make too big a deal of all this, and certainly not to get into
> the whole question of taxonomy--it's a personal list of poets I think
don't
> have the reputation they deserve, including some who have been publishing
> for decades without attracting Helen Vendler's attention while she puffs
the
> likes of Dave Smith.
>
> One criterion I had in mind for those poets listed was absence from the
> *Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry*, 2nd edition, and in fact from many if
> not most of the popular teaching anthologies, such as the Poulin/Waters
> *Contemporary American Poetry*, 7e.
>
> I take it as a given that a term like "neglected" is utterly relative, as
is
> "mainstream."
>
> About my perverse use of the word "oddball" as praise, well, I could quote
> Marianne Moore, I suppose:
>
> "Voltaire objected to those who said in enigmas what others had said
> naturally; and we agree; yet we must have the courage of our
peculiarities."
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun  2 21:57:19 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:57:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
Message-ID: <1d2.22999807.2defdf7f@aol.com>

Bert Meyers....

       All Around Me

       All around me, butterflies,
       ecstatic hinges,
       hunt for the ideal door.
       A cicada's ratchet
       tightens a place in the yard.
       Everything's warmed
       by a wave from the tree.

       A bird trickles like a tap.

       And the dog just stands there,
       looking down.
       Run, sleep, she can't remember.
       It's hard to be conscious.

       From here, I can watch the freeway-
       ants on a windowsill.
       The skyline doodles, an airplane
       seems to float like a fish.

       Nearby, a factory smokes.
       I'm one of its little ashtrays.

       Suddenly, a dinosaur,
       or Rome, will rise,
       then crumble,
       in the cracks
       on a ragged wall.

       We do marvelous things
       without knowing how,
       like the chicken whose bronze shit
       builds a shrine under its coop.

       But, even so, 
       one gets depressed.
       This morning, a field,
       a flock of stones
       asleep in its mist?
       This world's painted
       on a glass that has
       to break.

            I can still
       pay the rent
       and the roads aren't lined
       with corpses yet.


(From _The Wild Olive &  The Blue Cafe'_,
Jazz Press/PapaBach Editions, 1982)
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Jun  2 22:04:57 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:04:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <1d2.22999807.2defdf7f@aol.com>
References: <1d2.22999807.2defdf7f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040602210439.W41532@kpaul.spinweb.net>

A cicada's ratchet
        tightens a place in the yard.

-----

wow. nice lines. ;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Bert Meyers....
>
>       All Around Me
>
>       All around me, butterflies,
>       ecstatic hinges,
>       hunt for the ideal door.
>       A cicada's ratchet
>       tightens a place in the yard.
>       Everything's warmed
>       by a wave from the tree.
>
>       A bird trickles like a tap.
>
>       And the dog just stands there,
>       looking down.
>       Run, sleep, she can't remember.
>       It's hard to be conscious.
>
>       From here, I can watch the freeway-
>       ants on a windowsill.
>       The skyline doodles, an airplane
>       seems to float like a fish.
>
>       Nearby, a factory smokes.
>       I'm one of its little ashtrays.
>
>       Suddenly, a dinosaur,
>       or Rome, will rise,
>       then crumble,
>       in the cracks
>       on a ragged wall.
>
>       We do marvelous things
>       without knowing how,
>       like the chicken whose bronze shit
>       builds a shrine under its coop.
>
>       But, even so,
>       one gets depressed.
>       This morning, a field,
>       a flock of stones
>       asleep in its mist???
>       This world's painted
>       on a glass that has
>       to break.
>
>            I can still
>       pay the rent
>       and the roads aren't lined
>       with corpses yet.
>
>
> (From _The Wild Olive &  The Blue Cafe'_,
> Jazz Press/PapaBach Editions, 1982)
>

From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun  2 22:21:55 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:21:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
Message-ID: <30.5820d54e.2defe543@aol.com>

Hilda Morley...

       Even Then

       Not Tristan & Isolde,
                          not Heloise
       and Abelard,
                       not love in
       tragedy,   or the dying away into
       love only,
                    & even  when
       you would say, at the Greek florist's
       on the corner of 72nd Street: I want a rose for
       my rose of a woman (looking 
       at me)    it was not only that
       you meant,
                  but rather, for us, somehow, even
       with our arms plunged to the elbows in
       the gravel of daily living, 
                            for us to flower
       even then, 
                  to make--
       in that harshness, that effort,
                                    even 
       in that straining--
                        a garden
       and not to live richly only,     
                                  but
       to give that richness back.


(from _Cloudless At First_, Moyer Bell Ltd., 1988)
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun  2 22:37:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:37:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
Message-ID: <a1.48ba6016.2defe907@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/2/2004 10:05:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kpaul at mallasch.com writes:

> A cicada's ratchet
>     tightens a place in the yard.
> 
> -----
> 
> wow. nice lines. ;)
> 
> 

kpaul, yeah, those aren't bad, but
I don't know how one finishes
a poem after beginning...

       All around me, butterflies,
       ecstatic hinges,
       hunt for the ideal door.

Finnegan
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Jun  2 22:43:40 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:43:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <a1.48ba6016.2defe907@aol.com>
References: <a1.48ba6016.2defe907@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040602214314.Q41532@kpaul.spinweb.net>

with the summer of cicadas ;)

thanks to everyone for the new ppl/poets ...

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/2/2004 10:05:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> kpaul at mallasch.com writes:
>
>> A cicada's ratchet
>>     tightens a place in the yard.
>>
>> -----
>>
>> wow. nice lines. ;)
>>
>>
>
> kpaul, yeah, those aren't bad, but
> I don't know how one finishes
> a poem after beginning...
>
>       All around me, butterflies,
>       ecstatic hinges,
>       hunt for the ideal door.
>
> Finnegan
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  2 22:24:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:24:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <BCE39C38.98EB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <034c01c44916$11f0fa10$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> without attracting Helen Vendler's attention . . .

> One criterion I had in mind for those poets listed was absence from the
> *Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry*, 2nd edition, and in fact from many if
> not most of the popular teaching anthologies, such as the Poulin/Waters
> *Contemporary American Poetry*, 7e.
>
> I take it as a given that a term like "neglected" is utterly relative, as
is
> "mainstream."

I don't know quite what you mean by "relative," but you've given a good
partial definition of mainstream (i.e., it matches one I've given on
New-Poetry): mainstream anthology: published by commercial press in editions
of 10,000 or more I would guess; mainstream magazines: poetry-publishing
magazines with circulations of 100,000 or more, I'd guess; Mainstream book
publishers: Knopf  and the like.  Simple.  Add poetry discussed in 95% or
more college classes in which contemporary poetry is taught, and poetry
discussed by critics published in the same publications I've just discussed,
and you have an objective definition of mainstream poetry.  Oh, and add
poetry garnering 99% or more of the prize money awarded for poetry.

A mainstream poet is simply one who composes mainstream poetry as just
defined, whether his work appears in the publications described or wins any
prizes.

--Bob G.




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Jun  3 00:14:27 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:14:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <30.5820d54e.2defe543@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BCE40FD3.9929%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I'm loving these posted poems from NOPs, however defined.

Probably I've posted this one before, but here it is again.  You almost
never hear anyone mention this poet, who was older than Pound and Williams,
but who lived into the 1980s and her second century.  I was delighted to see
a handful of her poems in the Library of America anthology of 20th C. poets,
vol. 1.  

That anthology, by the way, does a rather wonderful job of rescuing any # of
NOPs.  


FROM AN OFFSHORE ISLAND
(September Gale)

Hear now the ocean trouncing off this island,
The under-roar of wind down unfenced sea,
And through chance flaws, like dim light down a tunnel,
The bell buoy spent with distance.

Orion's chill, washed, subterranean glitter
Wheels up from under, and great Rigel blazes
Between tossed oak boughs that the gale of autumn
Tears at, lifts, lets fall.

Old ocean's hoarse and implicated roaring
Brings me up sitting at the dead of night,
Its pent-in mouthless fury calling back
The wild first of creation,

The rage, the might, the rampage.
                                                         ---How shall I
Up from this anchored island not make answer,
I with my bones of rock-dust hardly knitted
And my blood still salt from the sea?
    ---Abbie Huston Evans, from *Fact of Crystal*, 1961





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun  3 06:35:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 06:35:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <BCE40FD3.9929%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <005501c44956$79b44950$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Neglected Oddball Poets
FROM AN OFFSHORE ISLAND
(September Gale)

Hear now the ocean trouncing off this island,
The under-roar of wind down unfenced sea,
And through chance flaws, like dim light down a tunnel,
The bell buoy spent with distance.

Orion's chill, washed, subterranean glitter
Wheels up from under, and great Rigel blazes
Between tossed oak boughs that the gale of autumn
Tears at, lifts, lets fall.

Old ocean's hoarse and implicated roaring
Brings me up sitting at the dead of night,
Its pent-in mouthless fury calling back
The wild first of creation,

The rage, the might, the rampage.
                                                         ---How shall I
Up from this anchored island not make answer,
I with my bones of rock-dust hardly knitted
And my blood still salt from the sea?
    ---Abbie Huston Evans, from *Fact of Crystal*, 1961


Interesting evidence that the present mainstream may be approaching its fiftieth anniversary.  Good work, all you stasguards out there!

--Bob G.
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 06:56:46 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 06:56:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Allen Ginsberg
Message-ID: <192.2a6fe2ff.2df05dee@aol.com>

Allen Ginsberg: b. June 3, 1926.   d. April 6, 1997


Song 

      The weight of the world 
           is love. 
      Under the burden 
           of solitude, 
      under the burden 
           of dissatisfaction 

           the weight, 
      the weight we carry 
           is love. 

      Who can deny? 
           In dreams 
      it touches 
           the body, 
      in thought 
           constructs 
      a miracle, 
           in imagination 
      anguishes 
           till born 
      in human-- 
      looks out of the heart 
           burning with purity-- 
      for the burden of life 
           is love, 

      but we carry the weight 
           wearily, 
      and so must rest 
      in the arms of love 
           at last, 
      must rest in the arms 
           of love. 

      No rest 
           without love, 
      no sleep 
           without dreams 
      of love-- 
           be mad or chill 
      obsessed with angels 
           or machines, 
      the final wish 
           is love 
      --cannot be bitter, 
           cannot deny, 
      cannot withhold 
           if denied: 

      the weight is too heavy 

           --must give 
      for no return 
           as thought 
      is given 
           in solitude 
      in all the excellence 
           of its excess. 

      The warm bodies 
           shine together 
      in the darkness, 
           the hand moves 
      to the center 
           of the flesh, 
      the skin trembles 
           in happiness 
      and the soul comes 
           joyful to the eye-- 

      yes, yes, 
           that's what 
      I wanted, 
           I always wanted, 
      I always wanted, 
           to return 
      to the body 
           where I was born. 

                

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From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 09:29:51 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:29:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
Message-ID: <1e2.22380886.2df081cf@aol.com>

i'd recommend lorine niedecker (neglected) and d.a. levy (oddball) to your 
collection, david.

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Jun  3 10:29:39 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:29:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <BCE39C38.98EB%grahamd@ripon.edu> <03e401c448fe$e9b4f4a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <006c01c44977$3488c150$85089942@Helen>

Bob Lax
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Old Mole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets


> I'd put Donald Finkel on your list, and Nancy Willard.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:01 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
>
>
> > on 6/2/04 2:32 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > David Graham wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Things get much dicier among the younger and/or the still-kicking,
> > >> naturally.  But today's possible picks might include, aside from you
> and me
> > >> and a number of NewPoets, Robert Morgan, Madeline DeFrees, Brendan
> Galvin,
> > >> Russell Edson, Linda Gregg, Fred Chappell, Laura Jensen, Melvin
Dixon,
> > >> Pattiann Rogers, Dennis Finnell, Betsy Sholl, Jack Myers, Mary Koncel
.
> . .
> > >
> > > Curious why you'd list most of those as oddball and/or neglected.
Most
> > > of them get their fair share of page space and most are what I'd
> > > consider mainstream, the major exceptions being Mary Koncel and Laura
> > > Jensen, who I'd consider neglected but not oddball.
> > >
> > > - Jim
> >
> > As I noted, things get dicey the closer you get to the present.
> >
> > But not to make too big a deal of all this, and certainly not to get
into
> > the whole question of taxonomy--it's a personal list of poets I think
> don't
> > have the reputation they deserve, including some who have been
publishing
> > for decades without attracting Helen Vendler's attention while she puffs
> the
> > likes of Dave Smith.
> >
> > One criterion I had in mind for those poets listed was absence from the
> > *Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry*, 2nd edition, and in fact from many
if
> > not most of the popular teaching anthologies, such as the Poulin/Waters
> > *Contemporary American Poetry*, 7e.
> >
> > I take it as a given that a term like "neglected" is utterly relative,
as
> is
> > "mainstream."
> >
> > About my perverse use of the word "oddball" as praise, well, I could
quote
> > Marianne Moore, I suppose:
> >
> > "Voltaire objected to those who said in enigmas what others had said
> > naturally; and we agree; yet we must have the courage of our
> peculiarities."
> >
> >
> >
> > ====================================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> > Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > ====================================================
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 10:34:04 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:34:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
Message-ID: <15c.36159de4.2df090dc@aol.com>

helen--

he was next on my list...

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Jun  3 11:27:29 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:27:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <1e2.22380886.2df081cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BCE4AD91.9955%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/3/04 8:29 AM, Thom424 at aol.com at Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

i'd recommend lorine niedecker (neglected) and d.a. levy (oddball) to your
collection, david.

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn 

Cool.  How about a sample of levy's work, Thom?

Another poet who springs to mind is John Hall Wheelock.

Earth


"A planet doesn't explode of itself," said drily
The Martian astronomer, gazing off into the air --
"That they were able to do it is proof that highly
Intelligent beings must have been living there."

-- John Hall Wheelock


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 11:27:37 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:27:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
Message-ID: <1d1.229051df.2df09d69@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/3/2004 9:30:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Thom424 at aol.com 
writes:
lorine niedecker (neglected
Thom, I think Niedecker (deservedly) has had a fair
amount of attention in recent years. d.a. levy
I can't say I know much about him...his name
comes upon BuffPoetics list from time to time, 
I believe.
Was he sort of an 'outsider poet' from the Cleveland
area? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Finnegan
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Jun  3 11:46:35 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:46:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <15c.36159de4.2df090dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002101c44981$f3f7d210$85089942@Helen>

I'd post a Lax poem but I'm getting carpal tunnel and have to wear a brace - sincerely annoying.
h
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thom424 at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 10:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets


  helen--

  he was next on my list...

  thom tammaro
  moorhead, mn 
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 11:50:02 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:50:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: d.a. levy
Message-ID: <1e9.2201ded1.2df0a2aa@aol.com>

here's a link to the d.a. levy (1942-1968) home page: 

                     http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/dalevy/dalevy.htm

a good, appreciative intro to his life/work. links to bio, paintings, a few 
poems, essays about him/his work etc. 

UKANHAVYRFUCKINCITIBAK.   D.A.LEVY: A TRIBUTE TO THE MAN.   AN ANTHOLOGY OF
HIS POETRY from Ghost Press, Cleveland (1968), gives you a glimpse into this 
complicated, tragic man who lived an intense but brief life in cleveland.

here's a levy poem:


to jim lowel's goldfish

   ?by d.a.levy

there is little or nothing
of the minds nightwork
so there is pretending & amusement
a goldfish in a toilet bowl
a piece of the captured sun
the heart of a melons wisdom

if of the Spanish marauders
a ripping up of alabaster by its iron roots
carries this treasure off to store in a
galleon that is to die young

instead, i anchor him with old memories
and change his water by day
he thinks it is the tide    
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 11:57:45 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:57:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
Message-ID: <143.2aba355e.2df0a479@aol.com>

save your wrists, helen!

below is a robert lax poem. there's an appreciative essay on him/his work at: 


                    http://www.poetrybay.com/winter2003/dreamcatcher.html

i think lax was once listed at being among the 250 most distinguished alumni 
of columbia.

here's the poem:


Acrobat's Song

?Robert Lax

Who is it for whom we now perform,
Cavorting on wire:
For whom does the boy
Climbing the ladder
Balance and whirl ?
For whom,
Seen or unseen
In a shield of light?

Seen or unseen,
In a shield of light,
At the tent top
Where the rays stream in
Watching the pin-wheel
Turns of the players
Dancing in the light:

Lady,
We are Thy acrobats;
Jugglers;
Tumblers;
Walking on wire,
Dancing on air,
Swinging on the high trapeze:
We are Thy children,
Flying in the air
Of that smile:
Rejoicing in light.

Lady,
We perform before Thee,
Walking a joyous discipline,
A thin thread of courage,
A slim high wire of dependence
Over abysses.

What do we know
Of the way of our walking?
Only this step,
This movement,
Gone as we name it.
Here
At the thin
Rim of the world
We turn for Our Lady,
Who holds us lightly:
We leave the wire,
Leave the line,
Vanish
Into light.
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From kellogg at duke.edu  Thu Jun  3 12:36:11 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Thu,  3 Jun 2004 12:36:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected oddball poet: Amon Liner
Message-ID: <1086280571.40bf537b0ea6f@webmail.duke.edu>

Amon Liner is one of the strangest poets of the 20th century, and one very few 
have heard of, so I think he fits the bill more than almost anyone mentioned.  
His "The Far Journey and Final End of Dr. Faustwitz" is a two-volume work in 
four columns (or "plys") of verse per page.  Imagine mixing the visionay DNA of 
Jack Spicer, Frederick Seidel, Emily Dickinson, and Art Spiegelman.    

David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 15:32:44 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 15:32:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected oddball poet: Amon Liner
Message-ID: <27.59bed76d.2df0d6dc@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/3/2004 12:36:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kellogg at duke.edu writes:
Amon Liner is one of the strangest poets of the 20th century, and one very 
few 
have heard of, so I think he fits the bill more than almost anyone mentioned. 
 
His "The Far Journey and Final End of Dr. Faustwitz" is a two-volume work in 
four columns (or "plys") of verse per page.  Imagine mixing the visionay DNA 
of 
Jack Spicer, Frederick Seidel, Emily Dickinson, and Art Spiegelman.    
David,
I found that book for $5 used on the internet, so I ordered
it.
I read a bit about him in UNC archive where his
papers are. http://www.lib.unc.edu/mss/inv/l/Liner%2CAmon

I don't know about oddball, but he certainly fits into the 
"obscure" category.
Would you say that his work should be more well known
based on its merits? Or is it just a curiousity?
Finnegan
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From kellogg at duke.edu  Thu Jun  3 15:52:22 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Thu,  3 Jun 2004 15:52:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected oddball poet: Amon Liner
In-Reply-To: <27.59bed76d.2df0d6dc@aol.com>
References: <27.59bed76d.2df0d6dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1086292342.40bf817672c04@webmail.duke.edu>

Quoting JforJames at aol.com:

> In a message dated 6/3/2004 12:36:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> kellogg at duke.edu writes:
> Amon Liner is one of the strangest poets of the 20th century, and one very 
> few 
> have heard of, so I think he fits the bill more than almost anyone mentioned.
> 
>  
> His "The Far Journey and Final End of Dr. Faustwitz" is a two-volume work in
> 
> four columns (or "plys") of verse per page.  Imagine mixing the visionay DNA
> 
> of 
> Jack Spicer, Frederick Seidel, Emily Dickinson, and Art Spiegelman.    
> David,
> I found that book for $5 used on the internet, so I ordered
> it.
> I read a bit about him in UNC archive where his
> papers are. http://www.lib.unc.edu/mss/inv/l/Liner%2CAmon
> 
> I don't know about oddball, but he certainly fits into the 
> "obscure" category.
> Would you say that his work should be more well known
> based on its merits? Or is it just a curiousity?
> Finnegan

Did you order volume 1 or volume 2?  

I think it's much, much more than a curiosity.  "Faustwitz" takes some getting 
used to, but it's worth it.  Very hard-edged, very un-Southern, despite Liner's 
immersion in NC.  In fact, I think Liner's work was neglected partly because of 
the incongruity: here's this southern shy man, never really done anything, 
writing what amounts to a science fiction Holocaust epic.  Plus he died just 
when he started to get published, and unlike, say, John Kennedy Toole, that 
didn't work to his advantage.  

In 2000 The Asheville Poetry Review listed Liner as one of 10 great neglected 
poets of the 20th century, along with Mina Loy, Pierre Reverdy, Yvan Goll, 
Lorine Niedecker, Kenneth Patchen, George Scarbrough, Jack Spicer, Bob Kaufman, 
and Frank Stanford.  Their special issue including some work of Liner's is 
volume 7, no. 1. 

I've been trying to get Faustwitz -- which really does anticipate 
Spiegelman's "Maus" and Seidel's Cosmos, and may be influenced by the SF 
aspects of Gravity's Rainbow -- back into print. 

David

David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 16:51:48 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:51:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected oddball poet: Amon Liner
Message-ID: <92.c976c17.2df0e964@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/3/2004 3:52:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kellogg at duke.edu writes:
Did you order volume 1 or volume 2?  
Looks like I bought Vol II. I wasn't paying
attention. But if I like what I see, I'll try to
scare up Vol I. 
Thanks for stumping the band, so to speak.
At first I thought you were spoofing us
with that name Amon Liner
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun  3 16:46:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:46:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Neglected Oddball Poets
References: <15c.36159de4.2df090dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01c001c449ac$1322b220$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Lax is a favorite of mine--I even put a whole poem of his into one of my mathemaku.  But surely Garrison has unneglected him?

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 17:17:09 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:17:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
Message-ID: <12a.4310da5c.2df0ef55@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/3/2004 11:58:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Thom424 at aol.com writes:
below is a robert lax poem. there's an appreciative essay on him/his work at: 

                    http://www.poetrybay.com/winter2003/dreamcatcher.html
Thom, now that I've read this, I seem to recall that 
Lax was featured in an article in Poets & Writers within
the last few years. What I remember from the P&W article 
was a picture of a thin bearded man, who lived in Greece, 
whose poetry I'd never encountered before, and who wrote, 
judging from the samples therein, very skinny poems. 
(I may be mistaken about all of this.)
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun  3 17:19:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:19:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <143.2aba355e.2df0a479@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01e901c449b0$834addd0$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Lax is a favorite of mine for his minimalist poems.  I write about him in my essay on minimalist poetry that has been mentioned more than once at New-Poetry.  Levy is another favorite of mine because of his visual poems.  He was a pioneer in the misuse of the mimeograph to make poems--by collaging, overprinting, smearing, etc.  He committed suicide at the same age Keats was when Keats died.  I've recently learned that two or three documentaries have been made of him, but he is still left out of most or all the mainstream anthologies.

Here's the untitled poem of Lax's that I stole for one of my mathemaku (which is on the net somewhere), and which I'm pretty sure I've posted before:

river
river
river

river
river
river

river
river
river

river
river
river

******

--Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jun  3 17:27:54 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:27:54 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <143.2aba355e.2df0a479@aol.com> <01e901c449b0$834addd0$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <008a01c449b1$a1d11610$f61c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Yes, I remember it.
Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 11:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem


  Lax is a favorite of mine for his minimalist poems.  I write about him in my essay on minimalist poetry that has been mentioned more than once at New-Poetry.  Levy is another favorite of mine because of his visual poems.  He was a pioneer in the misuse of the mimeograph to make poems--by collaging, overprinting, smearing, etc.  He committed suicide at the same age Keats was when Keats died.  I've recently learned that two or three documentaries have been made of him, but he is still left out of most or all the mainstream anthologies.

  Here's the untitled poem of Lax's that I stole for one of my mathemaku (which is on the net somewhere), and which I'm pretty sure I've posted before:

  river
  river
  river

  river
  river
  river

  river
  river
  river

  river
  river
  river

  ******

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun  3 18:04:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:04:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <12a.4310da5c.2df0ef55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <021c01c449b6$bb6f3700$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

In a message dated 6/3/2004 11:58:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Thom424 at aol.com writes:

below is a robert lax poem. there's an appreciative essay on him/his work at: 

                    http://www.poetrybay.com/winter2003/dreamcatcher.html

Thom, now that I've read this, I seem to recall that 

Lax was featured in an article in Poets & Writers within the last few years. What I remember from the P&W article was a picture of a thin bearded man, who lived in Greece, whose poetry I'd never encountered before, and who wrote, judging from the samples therein, very skinny poems. (I may be mistaken about all of this.)

Your memory is correct, James.  Poets & Writers somehow accidentally did an article on him--at just about the time I stopped subscribing to it because it never had anything about poets like him in it.  He was a friend of Thomas Merton, which probably helped P&W take the great risk of discussing him (although the discussion was pretty shallow, as I recall, as their discussions just about always are, as I recal).

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 22:21:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:21:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
Message-ID: <b2.2cdf6485.2df136a2@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/3/2004 5:22:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Here's the untitled poem of Lax's that I stole for one of my mathemaku 
> (which is on the net somewhere), and which I'm pretty sure I've posted before:
>   
> river
>  river
>  river
>   
> river
>  river
>  river
>   
> river
>  river
>  river
>   
> river
>  river
>  river
> 

Bob, the word ":river" is important to me. 
As it is to many, I'm sure. I grew up in
a quintessential river town, St. Louis,
so I'd almost say the word is archetypal
for me. But the poem itself doesn't really
do much for me. I can't think of much 
beyond a stutter of misheard Hericlitus, 
something about: "You can't step into 
the same river th-th-th-thrice." Tell me what 
attracts you so deeply about this poem. 
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun  3 22:52:34 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:52:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
Message-ID: <1e0.22482ae9.2df13df2@aol.com>

Two by John Finlay?


       A Few Things For Themselves

       Along the bay live oaks and magnolias
       Gather massively the warm blackness
       As birds dart and cry in their hard leaves.

       At their base the narrow strip of beach
       Is yellow and African in the late sun.
       We hold off and let the boat drift?

       The string of fish in the bottom
       Lies in spilled oil, blood and bay-water.
       Their white underbellies gleam in the dusk.

       A black watersnake is moving into
       The closed muscle-like blooms of lilies,
       The darker swamp weeds along the shore.

       Slowly we follow it, back to the dock.
       And walk in the early night through crickets,
       The low wind in the rusty screens.




       On Rembrandt's Portrait Of An Old Man
       Reading The Scriptures

       Exposure salted his grave Northern face.
       An unerasable sadness tinged that grace
       Of sourceless light glowing on solid form.
       Hard winter nights-the isolating storm-
       His oil burned out onto the living word.
       A man matured in loss, in griefs incurred
       By love outside himself, he would expend
       His mind on God, still opened to the end.


(From _Mind and Blood_, John Daniel & Co., 1992)  
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From elemenope at icubed.com  Thu Jun  3 11:12:59 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:12:59 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
In-Reply-To: <200406040206.i54262XE028007@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028007@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100303bce4f038e8f4@[204.215.204.83]>

Douglas Blazek


-- 


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Jun  4 01:59:18 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 01:59:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] bukowski movie
Message-ID: <002401c449f9$14c3b0f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

A Poet Weaned on Pain and Reared by Adversity
By STEPHEN HOLDEN
     
y father was a great literary teacher," recalls the famously scrappy, hard-drinking poet and novelist Charles Bukowski, who died in 1994. "He taught me the meaning of pain - pain without reason." Three times a week, from the age of 6 to 11, he was beaten by his father with a razor strap, he remembers in John Dullaghan's definitive and engrossing documentary portrait, "Bukowski: Born Into This."

Revisiting his boyhood home in Los Angeles where the beatings took place, Bukowski wryly calls it "the house of horrors" in a drawl that filters Kevin Spacey through William S. Burroughs with a dash of Tennessee Williams. Those beatings, he admits, were essential to the formation of his lean, brutal literary style through which no sentimentality was allowed to leak. When you're beaten that regularly, he suggests, "you say what you mean."

Some of the film's interviews were done for European television. Excerpts are skillfully woven with the reminiscences of former drinking buddies, fellow writers and Bukowski's second wife, Linda, the keeper of the flame, whom he married in 1985. Without straining, the film makes a strong case for Bukowski as a major American poet whose work was a slashing rebuke to polite academic formalism.

Bukowski didn't always revel in his outsider status. A pariah in high school, he suffered from severe acne vulgaris, which covered his face with running sores that left his skin deeply pitted. He recalls standing miserably in the dark outside his senior prom, too humiliated to show himself.

In later years Bukowski boasted of his sexual prowess. Yet he was a virgin until he was 24, the same age at which his first story was published. His description of sexual initiation with an obese woman whom he wrongly accused of stealing his wallet is a spectacularly unpromising beginning to the prolific sexual activity (described in his novel "Women") that flowered after fame brought admirers.

Bukowski could be as pithy off the page as on. He cites as "the ultimate compliment" being called "a good duker." He began writing at 13 because it seemed "the easiest thing to do." Love he describes as "a fog that burns with the first daylight of reality."

He began writing in earnest after traveling around the country for a decade working as a laborer, drinking and brawling, and absorbing the raw experience that informed his work. Later he supported himself as a mail carrier for 14 years. His heavy drinking contributed to a case of bleeding ulcers in 1956 from which he was not expected to recover. But he went on to carouse for four more decades before succumbing to leukemia at 73.

At the suggestion of a girlfriend he took up betting on horses as a hobby, and it became an addiction, with the faces of the bettors and their dreams of winning a crucial inspiration. One of his pet peeves was Mickey Mouse, whom he said had "no soul," and he harbored a deep loathing for Walt Disney and everything he stood for.

With the publication of a regular column, "Notes of a Dirty Old Man," in the underground press, he gained notoriety beyond the world of little magazines. His career solidified after John Martin, the founder of the Black Swallow Press, volunteered to keep him afloat. Two decades later Bukowski wrote the screenplay for Barbet Schroeder's 1987 movie, "Barfly," in which Mickey Rourke played a Bukowski-like roustabout with a swaggering bravado that the poet says was inaccurate. That unhappy experience inspired his novel "Hollywood," a place he describes as "more crooked, dumber, crueler and stupider than all the books I read about it."

The documentary includes reverential tributes from Tom Waits, the singer and songwriter who brought his tenderer version of Bukowskian alienation into popular song, as well as from Bono, Sean Penn, Harry Dean Stanton and the film director Taylor Hackford.

Subtly, without overstating the case, "Bukowski," which opens today in Manhattan, shows its cantankerous subject mellowing with success. Near the end of the movie, Bukowski even shows a flash of what he calls "the bluebird in my heart who wants to get out." But then, having to be true to his legend, he catches himself and asserts, "I'm too tough for him."
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Fri Jun  4 12:20:29 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:20:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] another one for david's oddball anthology...
Message-ID: <15.2aaddf97.2df1fb4d@aol.com>

alfred starr hamiltom?      http://www.100megsfree4.com/stimso/hamilton.htm?

hamilton's kinda like the harvey peckar (the cartoonist of *american 
splendor* fame) of poetry.


Two Poems about Tampa


I.? Tampa

The train has just stopped
Just two passengers get off on this broiling end-of-summer morning
Both are dressed in khaki suits and pith helmets
Both are followed by a black servant who carries the baggage
Both glance absentmindedly at the distant houses that are too white at
??? the sky that is too blue
You see the wind raising swirls of dust and flies pestering the two mules
??? harnessed to the only coach
The driver is asleep his mouth open
?

?
Tampa, Florida

To sting a centipede around
A pineapple bend, on a peach -- truth is
Studied on the breast -- abysmally
A picture of a tramp is being excruciated
Betwixt a splintered park bent beach
And truthfully
And in Africa
A pink pygmy
Sits stupidly on a bamboo spear
In the hark wide open jungle
?
from The Poems of Alfred Starr Hamilton, 1970


ALFRED STARR HAMILTON, POET

by Jonathan Williams? (The New York Times Book Review, April 13, 1975)

Once upon a time, I used to know an honest, yet humble, advertising executive 
in Buckhead, Georgia, by the name of James Dickey. He was surely the only man 
in the Peach State who could talk about F.S. Flint, R.E.F. Larsson, Mina Loy?
I mean poets, whether they were minor ones or major ones. He would get a wild 
good light in his eyes. Well, that was 17 years ago. Mr. Dickey, having run 
through the Poetry World like green corn through a cow, now masquerades as 
Sheriff Super-Jock, of Deliverance County, Jawja.
??? The Legend is depressing, and I wish he would stop it. But the ineffable 
public loves poets who are "all man" as much as it mindlessly devours the 
truth of headlines in the National Enquirer: SPACE ALIENS TURNED OUR SON INTO AN 
OLIVE. Despite testimonials to the contrary, Mr. Dickey doesn't think I can 
write a lick; and I don't trust a thing he says anymore (which is not a happy 
state to exist between two poets who once seemed to be friends). I bring him up, 
unkindly, because the uses of fame allow James Dickey to demand $3500 for a 
poetry reading. Even a remote institution of the higher learning like Catawba 
College, Salisbury, NC, thinks it's getting a bargain if they secure him from 
the agent for a grudging one grand.
??? I would like to suggest to Mr. Dickey (and all poets who swing and sway 
before the public at the moment for appreciable amounts of cash ?whether they 
be Holy Men or Migrained Academics) that they give a benefit reading for a poet 
they have never heard of, who never goes anywhere, who has never read any 
poetry since Edwin Markham. I'm talking about Alfred Starr Hamilton: 41 South 
Willow Street, Montclair, NJ 07042.
??? Mr. Hamilton is 61 years old. He pays $40 a month for a linoleumed cell 
in a rooming house. He goes to the A&P on Saturday night for the bargain 
chicken pieces, picks up cigarette butts, smokes a little Prince Albert, gets 
clothes from the Salvation Army, and asks for a pint of Four Roses when anyone comes 
to visit him (which is about twice a year). In 1964 his mother left him 
$7000. He has been surviving, somehow, ever since ?in his oddly calm, disembodied, 
happy, desperate way. But, in the last letter of his I've had the heart to 
open, he was saying: "I have received a subpoena from a Newark court, for 
vagrancy. But I understand these subpoenas are not to be answered. I hope so."
??? The Jargon Society published The Poems of Alfred Starr Hamilton (with 
drawings by Philip Van Ever) in 1970, because he is an ignored caitiff; and an 
"original" poet, tuned in, like Blake or Dickinson, to a singular and moving 
world of words that he offers gladly to one and all. Nobody reviewed the book. 
Not one foundation or arts agency I have written to has made the slightest 
response to his plight. William Cole, the editor, is the only person in the United 
States who has bothered himself. He secured a small emergency grant of $250 
from P.E.N., which is used up. One of these days we'll pay no attention to a 
snippet at the bottom of a column in the Montclair Clarion, to the effect that 
Mr. A. S. Hamilton, self-styled poet, has been declared redundant by the State 
of New Jersey and put away in some bin.
??? The older I get the less I am able to be charitable to charitable 
institutions like the Ford Foundation and the Guggenheim Foundation and the New 
Jersey Arts Council. Cyril Connolly had their mentality pegged long ago: 
"Everything for the milk bar, and nothing for the cow." You'll not find them hopping on 
the train and going to 41 South Willow Street to find out with their own eyes. 
They stick to the five poets a year that Time magazine knows the names of. 
Poetry in the agora is no different from any other hard-sell item. The ladies 
and gents of the coteries with fingers in all the pies are the ladies and gents 
who pull out what withered plums there are.
??? If I lose sleep over this, Alfred Starr Hamilton doesn't. His 
indifference to scorn and neglect make William Blake seem more worldly than he was. But, 
Mr. Blake had his engraver's job, his Kate, and his disciples. Mr. Hamilton 
has nothing, except the 10 poems a day that the Poem Fairy leaves under his 
pillow for typing out by lunchtime?if there's any lunch?, before he takes his 
walk to the Public Library to read the paper he cannot afford to buy. This could 
be the story of any of three million sad old men, but it isn't. It is the 
condition of one poet who deserves just a modicum of dignity from the Society of 
Deaf-Ears. Montclair! What a town for this to be happening in: Republican 
Montclair. He wrote: "Well, I lost a hand abroad, but that was a hand for punching 
a typewriter and they thought that would do. They didn't like me at all. They 
were full of swaggadocio. They wanted more swag instead of culture."
??? We have man looking out of a window, making poems up?thousands of them, 
year after year, putting them into shoe boxes. He simply needs about $2000 to 
scrape along on for this year, 1975. Assuming the worst (that poets, arts 
councils, critics, universities, foundations will not do the job they are there to 
do), is it asking too much for a few private persons reading this column to do 
the simple human thing? Viz., put a check or a money order in an envelope and 
send it to New Jersey.
??? Charles Olson, one of my masters, taught that "he who controls 
rhythm/controls!" Maybe that was way down in Russia, where eggs cost a dolla, according 
to the old Blues lyric. I doubt that even Orpheus, who could move those trees 
and melt those rocks in the days when poetry had alleged clout, could melt the 
ice-floes in the contemporary heart? Again, Hamilton: "There are more than 
enough forest brambles and underbrush and real entanglements of all kinds. I 
guess they think I am immune? I'm not immune, I'm just out in the open. There 
aren't as many bees as there used to be."
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun  4 15:10:17 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:10:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <b2.2cdf6485.2df136a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ff01c44a67$94b89c30$46efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Bob, the word ":river" is important to me. 
As it is to many, I'm sure. I grew up in
a quintessential river town, St. Louis,
so I'd almost say the word is archetypal
for me. But the poem itself doesn't really
do much for me. I can't think of much 
beyond a stutter of misheard Hericlitus, 
something about: "You can't step into 
the same river th-th-th-thrice." Tell me what 
attracts you so deeply about this poem. 
Finnegan 

Will do, James--but probably not for a day or two.  

--Bob G.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  4 19:28:08 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:28:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <143.2aba355e.2df0a479@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV20avMNfFiM00028eaa@hotmail.com>

Sort of a very simplified and lighter "Ash Wednesday."

--CE
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thom424 at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 10:57 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem


  save your wrists, helen!

  below is a robert lax poem. there's an appreciative essay on him/his work at: 

                      http://www.poetrybay.com/winter2003/dreamcatcher.html

  i think lax was once listed at being among the 250 most distinguished alumni of columbia.

  here's the poem:


  Acrobat's Song

  ?Robert Lax

  Who is it for whom we now perform,
  Cavorting on wire:
  For whom does the boy
  Climbing the ladder
  Balance and whirl ?
  For whom,
  Seen or unseen
  In a shield of light?

  Seen or unseen,
  In a shield of light,
  At the tent top
  Where the rays stream in
  Watching the pin-wheel
  Turns of the players
  Dancing in the light:

  Lady,
  We are Thy acrobats;
  Jugglers;
  Tumblers;
  Walking on wire,
  Dancing on air,
  Swinging on the high trapeze:
  We are Thy children,
  Flying in the air
  Of that smile:
  Rejoicing in light.

  Lady,
  We perform before Thee,
  Walking a joyous discipline,
  A thin thread of courage,
  A slim high wire of dependence
  Over abysses.

  What do we know
  Of the way of our walking?
  Only this step,
  This movement,
  Gone as we name it.
  Here
  At the thin
  Rim of the world
  We turn for Our Lady,
  Who holds us lightly:
  We leave the wire,
  Leave the line,
  Vanish
  Into light. 
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  4 19:31:54 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:31:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] robert lax poem addedum...
References: <143.2aba355e.2df0a479@aol.com> <01e901c449b0$834addd0$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV53qsQIkQsB00002b75@hotmail.com>



  river
  river
  river

  river
  river
  river

  river
  river
  river

  river
  river
  river

  glug, glug
  to dirty ears
  tereu, tereu    

  --Bob G.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  4 19:37:56 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:37:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...
References: <1e0.22482ae9.2df13df2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV403KVLAaKH0000237d@hotmail.com>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 9:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets


  Two by John Finlay?


         A Few Things For Themselves

         Along the bay live oaks and magnolias
         Gather massively the warm blackness
         As birds dart and cry in their hard leaves. (factual: "hard" leaves?  I know these trees.  Not the right word IMHO.

         At their base the narrow strip of beach
         Is yellow and African in the late sun.
         We hold off and let the boat drift?

         The string of fish in the bottom
         Lies in spilled oil, blood and bay-water.
         {Their white underbellies gleam in the dusk.} cliche'

         A black watersnake is moving into
         The closed muscle-like blooms of lilies,
         The darker swamp weeds along the shore.

         Slowly we follow it, back to the dock.
         And walk in the early night through crickets,
         The low wind in the rusty screens.




         On Rembrandt's Portrait Of An Old Man

  Key: [cheap rhymes] {cliche'}

         Reading The Scriptures

         Exposure salted his grave Northern face.
         An unerasable sadness {tinged that [grace]}
         Of sourceless {light glowing} on solid form.
         Hard winter nights-the isolating storm-
         {His oil burned out} onto the living word. (know the painting, still no excuse}
         A man matured in loss, in griefs [incurred] (obviously chosen for rhyme)
         By love outside himself, he would expend
         His mind on God, {still opened to the [end]}.


  --CE
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  4 19:45:09 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 18:45:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] bukowski movie
References: <002401c449f9$14c3b0f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV42vXsn2Yf000028b9f@hotmail.com>

"Charles Bukowski and the Nadir of American Poetry"

http://www.melicreview.com/cgibin/ess_archive.cgi?iss09.cechaffin.01

But I did like _Barfly_, with Faye Dunaway and Mickey Rourke, though, by all
accounts, Bukowski proved quite the pest with the directors and production.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: The Old Mole
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 12:59 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] bukowski movie


A Poet Weaned on Pain and Reared by Adversity
By STEPHEN HOLDEN



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Jun  5 11:21:32 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:21:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...
Message-ID: <156.36ce56e0.2df33efc@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/4/2004 7:39:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes:

> >> --- Original Message ----- 
>> From: JforJames at aol.com 
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 9:52 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets
>>  
>> 
>> Two by John Finlay?
>> 
>> 
>>       A Few Things For Themselves
>> 
>>       Along the bay live oaks and magnolias
>>       Gather massively the warm blackness
>>       As birds dart and cry in their hard leaves. (factual: "hard" leaves?  
>> I know these trees.  Not the right word IMHO.
>> 
>>       At their base the narrow strip of beach
>>       Is yellow and African in the late sun.
>>       We hold off and let the boat drift?
>> 
>>       The string of fish in the bottom
>>       Lies in spilled oil, blood and bay-water.
>>       {Their white underbellies gleam in the dusk.} cliche'
>> 
>>       A black watersnake is moving into
>>       The closed muscle-like blooms of lilies,
>>       The darker swamp weeds along the shore.
>> 
>>       Slowly we follow it, back to the dock.
>>       And walk in the early night through crickets,
>>       The low wind in the rusty screens.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>       On Rembrandt's Portrait Of An Old Man
>> 
>  
> >>  
>> Key: [cheap rhymes] {cliche'}
>>  
>>       Reading The Scriptures
>> 
>>       Exposure salted his grave Northern face.
>>       An unerasable sadness {tinged that [grace]}
>>       Of sourceless {light glowing} on solid form.
>>       Hard winter nights-the isolating storm-
>>       {His oil burned out} onto the living word. (know the painting, still 
>> no excuse}
>>       A man matured in loss, in griefs [incurred] (obviously chosen for 
>> rhyme)
>>       By love outside himself, he would expend
>>       His mind on God, {still opened to the [end]}.
>> 
>> 
>> --CE
>> 
> 

These seem more like quibbles rather than major flaws.
A magnolia's leaf is thick and rather rigid (thus "hard" 
in some sense) at least when compared
to a leaf of a maple or sycamore or many other 
of the common trees.

I think you have a very high standard for judging
cliches if you deem "Their white underbellies gleam 
in the dusk," a cliche. I'm not saying the image is 
unique, but it's not overused, in my opinion. I think
the set up is what makes that line & the image work: 
The sight of those stringered fish in a spill of oil, blood, 
and water at the bottom of the boat. The ugly interwoven 
with the sublime. A move that's served poetic imagery 
well through the ages.

In a rhyming poem is it possible not to "choose" 
certain words for their rhymes? Ideally all the rhymes
would be unusual and generated almost unconsciously
in the seamless process of composition. But I don't think
that's entirely possible. Some concessions must be
made either for sense or for sound  to make the poem
work.
Finnegan
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Jun  5 12:09:41 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:09:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
Message-ID: <BCE75A75.9A4F%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I've been greatly enjoying the posts about neglected poets.  I'm thinking
it's probably time for me to drop the "oddball" tag, myself.   But I'd love
to see more examples of poets off the beaten track, however that might be
defined.

Here's an experiment.  I'm wondering how many can identify the author of the
following poem?  If I'm right that relatively few can, then that might lend
support to my notion that one can be neglected even when published by a
major press, etc.  

This poem was first published about 30 years ago by a mainstream NYC press.

Getting Lost

*Get lost*, she said.
She did not have to give such good advice
Twice. I left.

Or, I got *lost*. 
What light!
Until I wasnt anywhere
I didnt know where I was.

I came back 
And said, 
*Here I am*.
*Who are you?*
She asked.

*I dont know anymore*,
I sighed.
Good, she said, 
*Then come inside*.

Inside it was 
wide and weird.
She clung and whispered,
*What shall I do?*
I whispered,

*Disappear*.
I did not have to give such good advice
Twice.
*Goodbye!* she shouted.
And drew near.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Jun  5 12:31:16 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 09:31:16 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
References: <BCE75A75.9A4F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <40C1F554.19940B0E@earthlink.net>

Oh, gag, I have to say I don't care.

- Jim

David Graham wrote:
> 
> I've been greatly enjoying the posts about neglected poets.  I'm
> thinking it's probably time for me to drop the "oddball" tag, myself.
>   But I'd love to see more examples of poets off the beaten track,
> however that might be defined.
> 
> Here's an experiment.  I'm wondering how many can identify the author
> of the following poem?  If I'm right that relatively few can, then
> that might lend support to my notion that one can be neglected even
> when published by a major press, etc.
> 
> This poem was first published about 30 years ago by a mainstream NYC
> press.
> 
> Getting Lost
> 
> *Get lost*, she said.
> She did not have to give such good advice
> Twice. I left.
> 
> Or, I got *lost*.
> What light!
> Until I wasnt anywhere
> I didnt know where I was.
> 
> I came back
> And said,
> *Here I am*.
> *Who are you?*
> She asked.
> 
> *I dont know anymore*,
> I sighed.
> Good, she said,
> *Then come inside*.
> 
> Inside it was
> wide and weird.
> She clung and whispered,
> *What shall I do?*
> I whispered,
> 
> *Disappear*.
> I did not have to give such good advice
> Twice.
> *Goodbye!* she shouted.
> And drew near.
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  5 14:46:39 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:46:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...
References: <156.36ce56e0.2df33efc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV55qxx2ZeZr000293df@hotmail.com>

"I think you have a very high standard for judging
cliches if you deem "Their white underbellies gleam
in the dusk." --Finnegan

Guilty as charged.

"In a rhyming poem is it possible not to "choose"
certain words for their rhymes? Ideally all the rhymes
would be unusual and generated almost unconsciously
in the seamless process of composition."

Formal poets often fail in this, but the best, like Will and Keats, even
Tennyson, do a lot better.  I think Finlay's choices are awfully obvious.
Are you an editor?  No doubt my judgment has been tainted by tens of
thousands of submissions, not to mention my preference for reading the
Greats.  Then, again, you may just have a bigger heart, Finnegan.  And that
I admire as a prerequisite for truly catholic taste, at which I sometimes
fail, as my essay on Bukowski, if anyone reads it, may observe...

--CE


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun  5 15:19:12 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:19:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
References: <BCE75A75.9A4F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006301c44b31$fc217bb0$c8607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Unusual SuspectsWhoever this poet is, his behavior is very familiar to me,
care, Anny
  From: David Graham 
  Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:09 PM


  I've been greatly enjoying the posts about neglected poets.  I'm thinking it's probably time for me to drop the "oddball" tag, myself.   But I'd love to see more examples of poets off the beaten track, however that might be defined.

  Here's an experiment.  I'm wondering how many can identify the author of the following poem?  If I'm right that relatively few can, then that might lend support to my notion that one can be neglected even when published by a major press, etc.  

  This poem was first published about 30 years ago by a mainstream NYC press.

  Getting Lost

  *Get lost*, she said.
  She did not have to give such good advice
  Twice. I left.

  Or, I got *lost*. 
  What light!
  Until I wasnt anywhere 
  I didnt know where I was.

  I came back 
  And said, 
  *Here I am*.
  *Who are you?*
  She asked.

  *I dont know anymore*,
  I sighed.
  Good, she said, 
  *Then come inside*.

  Inside it was 
  wide and weird.
  She clung and whispered, 
  *What shall I do?*
  I whispered,

  *Disappear*.
  I did not have to give such good advice
  Twice.
  *Goodbye!* she shouted. 
  And drew near.



  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun  5 15:38:41 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:38:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...
References: <156.36ce56e0.2df33efc@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV55qxx2ZeZr000293df@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a401c44b35$357cae90$6defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> "I think you have a very high standard for judging
> cliches if you deem "Their white underbellies gleam
> in the dusk." --Finnegan
>
> Guilty as charged.

Sound pretty cliched to me--something any competent jouranlis would come up
with.  The poem seems to me a standard Iowa plainlyric--without an epiphany.
In other words, just a good description of an ordinary day-to-day occurence.

Then, again, you may just have a bigger heart, Finnegan.  And that
> I admire as a prerequisite for truly catholic taste, at which I sometimes
> fail, as my essay on Bukowski, if anyone reads it, may observe...
>
I read it.  I think your moral distaste for Bukowski got in the way of
appreciation.  I'd give him brutal honesty, a definite talent for
compression, a feel for drama, and a  social milieu different from most
other poets that gives him one kind of a small originality most conventional
poets don't have.  To give a very rough estimate out of no very thorough
engagement with Bukowski.

--Bob G.




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Jun  5 16:21:32 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:21:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
In-Reply-To: <40C1F554.19940B0E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BCE7957C.9A71%grahamd@ripon.edu>

>> Here's an experiment.  I'm wondering how many can identify the author
>> of the following poem?  If I'm right that relatively few can, then
>> that might lend support to my notion that one can be neglected even
>> when published by a major press, etc.
>> 


OK, one more clue.  Below is another poem by the same mystery poet.

Two things are running through my mind in terms of this little game.  One is
that, though I'd say the poet in question has some fairly recognizable
stylistic signatures, has been published in prominent places over many
years, has won awards and is probably a name you would recognize, the world
of contemporary poetry is so huge and multifaceted that even a list of
experts like NewPo may not have a very good batting average in terms of
identifying the writer.

The other thing that occurs to me is that the "mainstream" is rather
brimming with poets like this one--who, despite some degree of profile, can
remain absent from most major anthologies, ignored by critics, and in fact
below even most experts' radar.   We're all neglected!  (And, above average.
. . .)


Dog

Dog you are an idiot.
Standing beside my chair
rainy day
eyes goofy gold, ever-hungering.
Impossible to feed you enough.
Impossible to fill your brown bowl.
I think we are similar.
As the angel beats in the drape
so do we stare at one another.
Man at dog, dog at man, over the gulf.
Yet sometimes you make me happy.
When I put on my jacket and you know
and you leap like a small horse.
What does riding in the car mean to you, I wonder.
No answer. Always the same brainless
bolt through the door, knocking people over,
up through the car window like a cat
through a hoop of fire.
Dog you complicate my life.
I can't move with you.
I can't bear the guilt of getting rid of you.
I sometimes think you are as intelligent
as a creature should get. Not really.
I'm glad I'm human. I'm glad I'm not a dog.
OK, Daisy, time to eat.
I know you don't like to go out in the rain.
I'll feed you in the kitchen.
BUT DON'T GET ANY SLOP ON THE FLOOR.
And she nods.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun  5 17:28:26 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:28:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
References: <BCE7957C.9A71%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01e701c44b44$0b812990$6defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The poet sounds familiar.  Better than Rod McKuen.  Enjoyable (as McKuen sometimes is).  

Not sure what your point is, David.  That is, I guess I understand it but it doesn't make much sense to me.  Who said there was some kind of relation between "mainstream" and "recognized?"  Except when speaking, as I do, of schools.  My dictum: to be significantly recognized makes you mainstream.  Not being mainstream assures that you will not be significantly recognized.  But being mainstream will not come close to assuring you that you will be significantly recognized.

--Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun  5 17:41:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:41:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
References: <BCE75A75.9A4F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00cc01c44b45$e8ad3ab0$c8607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Unusual SuspectsGoogling _getting lost_ and poem, look what I found:
http://www.americanpoems.com/search/getting_lost,_getting_lost

and I particularly liked this one:

The Neighbor by Rainer Maria Rilke

Strange violin, why do you follow me?
In how many foreign cities did you
speak of your lonely nights and those of mine.
Are you being played by hundreds? Or by one?

Do in all great cities men exist
who tormented and in deep despair
would have sought the river but for you?
And why does your playing always reach me?

Why is it that I am always neighbor
to those lost ones who are forced to sing
and to say: Life is infinitely heavier
than the heaviness of all things.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:09 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects


  I've been greatly enjoying the posts about neglected poets.  I'm thinking it's probably time for me to drop the "oddball" tag, myself.   But I'd love to see more examples of poets off the beaten track, however that might be defined.

  Here's an experiment.  I'm wondering how many can identify the author of the following poem?  If I'm right that relatively few can, then that might lend support to my notion that one can be neglected even when published by a major press, etc.  

  This poem was first published about 30 years ago by a mainstream NYC press.

  Getting Lost

  *Get lost*, she said.
  She did not have to give such good advice
  Twice. I left.

  Or, I got *lost*. 
  What light!
  Until I wasnt anywhere 
  I didnt know where I was.

  I came back 
  And said, 
  *Here I am*.
  *Who are you?*
  She asked.

  *I dont know anymore*,
  I sighed.
  Good, she said, 
  *Then come inside*.

  Inside it was 
  wide and weird.
  She clung and whispered, 
  *What shall I do?*
  I whispered,

  *Disappear*.
  I did not have to give such good advice
  Twice.
  *Goodbye!* she shouted. 
  And drew near.



  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================

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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sat Jun  5 18:17:37 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:17:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
References: <BCE75A75.9A4F%grahamd@ripon.edu> <00cc01c44b45$e8ad3ab0$c8607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <001901c44b4a$e9f46e70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Unusual SuspectsYou did better than me...a lot better, in fact. I came up with Lost - poem by Angelblueyes - Plus a poem written by Silly Goose
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects


  Googling _getting lost_ and poem, look what I found:
  http://www.americanpoems.com/search/getting_lost,_getting_lost

  and I particularly liked this one:

  The Neighbor by Rainer Maria Rilke

  Strange violin, why do you follow me?
  In how many foreign cities did you
  speak of your lonely nights and those of mine.
  Are you being played by hundreds? Or by one?

  Do in all great cities men exist
  who tormented and in deep despair
  would have sought the river but for you?
  And why does your playing always reach me?

  Why is it that I am always neighbor
  to those lost ones who are forced to sing
  and to say: Life is infinitely heavier
  than the heaviness of all things.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: David Graham 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:09 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects


    I've been greatly enjoying the posts about neglected poets.  I'm thinking it's probably time for me to drop the "oddball" tag, myself.   But I'd love to see more examples of poets off the beaten track, however that might be defined.

    Here's an experiment.  I'm wondering how many can identify the author of the following poem?  If I'm right that relatively few can, then that might lend support to my notion that one can be neglected even when published by a major press, etc.  

    This poem was first published about 30 years ago by a mainstream NYC press.

    Getting Lost

    *Get lost*, she said.
    She did not have to give such good advice
    Twice. I left.

    Or, I got *lost*. 
    What light!
    Until I wasnt anywhere 
    I didnt know where I was.

    I came back 
    And said, 
    *Here I am*.
    *Who are you?*
    She asked.

    *I dont know anymore*,
    I sighed.
    Good, she said, 
    *Then come inside*.

    Inside it was 
    wide and weird.
    She clung and whispered, 
    *What shall I do?*
    I whispered,

    *Disappear*.
    I did not have to give such good advice
    Twice.
    *Goodbye!* she shouted. 
    And drew near.



    ====================================================
    David Graham
    grahamd at ripon.edu
    Home Page:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
    Poetry Library:
    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
    ====================================================

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Jun  5 18:18:06 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:18:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...
Message-ID: <ae.59a5c81a.2df3a09e@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/5/2004 2:48:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes:

> And that
> I admire as a prerequisite for truly catholic taste, at which I sometimes
> fail, as my essay on Bukowski, if anyone reads it, may observe...
> 

Where is your essay on Sir Charles of LA.. I'm interested but
don't know it.
Finnegan
A Lapsed Catholic
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun  5 18:29:26 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 00:29:26 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
References: <BCE75A75.9A4F%grahamd@ripon.edu> <00cc01c44b45$e8ad3ab0$c8607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <001901c44b4a$e9f46e70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00f601c44b4c$8f4afaf0$c8607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Unusual SuspectsWonderful Tad! The kitschest site I have visited in the last, say 5 months?
heheh
  From: The Old Mole 
  Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 12:17 AM


  You did better than me...a lot better, in fact. I came up with Lost - poem by Angelblueyes - Plus a poem written by Silly Goose
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:41 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects


    Googling _getting lost_ and poem, look what I found:
    http://www.americanpoems.com/search/getting_lost,_getting_lost

    and I particularly liked this one:

    The Neighbor by Rainer Maria Rilke

    Strange violin, why do you follow me?
    In how many foreign cities did you
    speak of your lonely nights and those of mine.
    Are you being played by hundreds? Or by one?

    Do in all great cities men exist
    who tormented and in deep despair
    would have sought the river but for you?
    And why does your playing always reach me?

    Why is it that I am always neighbor
    to those lost ones who are forced to sing
    and to say: Life is infinitely heavier
    than the heaviness of all things.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: David Graham 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:09 PM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects


      I've been greatly enjoying the posts about neglected poets.  I'm thinking it's probably time for me to drop the "oddball" tag, myself.   But I'd love to see more examples of poets off the beaten track, however that might be defined.

      Here's an experiment.  I'm wondering how many can identify the author of the following poem?  If I'm right that relatively few can, then that might lend support to my notion that one can be neglected even when published by a major press, etc.  

      This poem was first published about 30 years ago by a mainstream NYC press.

      Getting Lost

      *Get lost*, she said.
      She did not have to give such good advice
      Twice. I left.

      Or, I got *lost*. 
      What light!
      Until I wasnt anywhere 
      I didnt know where I was.

      I came back 
      And said, 
      *Here I am*.
      *Who are you?*
      She asked.

      *I dont know anymore*,
      I sighed.
      Good, she said, 
      *Then come inside*.

      Inside it was 
      wide and weird.
      She clung and whispered, 
      *What shall I do?*
      I whispered,

      *Disappear*.
      I did not have to give such good advice
      Twice.
      *Goodbye!* she shouted. 
      And drew near.



      ====================================================
      David Graham
      grahamd at ripon.edu
      Home Page:
      http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
      Poetry Library:
      http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
      ====================================================

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun  5 19:37:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:37:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...
References: <ae.59a5c81a.2df3a09e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <022c01c44b56$24b8fbb0$6defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Where is your essay on Sir Charles of LA.. I'm interested but
don't know it.
Finnegan


The URL is in one of his posts for today.  But now that Smarty Jones lost, who cares?

--Bob G.
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From MillB at aol.com  Sun Jun  6 11:56:15 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 11:56:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] *new letters* interview with billy collins
Message-ID: <12a.4344a33a.2df4989f@aol.com>

Greetings,

Sorry. . .I missed this thread from long ago!  Interesting notion of children 
being natural poets.  If you do get around to reading Billy Collins' 
interview in New Letters, turn a few more pages and check out my poem, "Coupling" in 
the same issue.

Cheers,

Mill


I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools.
Let's start with typewriters.

       Frank Lloyd Wright
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Jun  6 12:40:08 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 11:40:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspect: The Answer
In-Reply-To: <BCE7957C.9A71%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BCE8B318.9AB6%grahamd@ripon.edu>

For anyone who's interested, the mystery poet is Stan Rice.  (Poems
re-posted below.)  If I had been playing this guessing game, I think I might
have guessed Jim Harrison, who in some moods resembles Rice more than most
contemporaries I can think of.

In any case, nobody did identify Rice, and I wonder if anyone could have.
Or how many of us have read a book or three of his, even?

I'm not sure what it all means, but it probably means something that a poet
like Rice can have a 30 year career, be published by the likes of Knopf, win
major awards and teach in a prominent writing program, and even be married
to a bestselling novelist--and still remain under the radar of many poets
and teachers of poetry.

One point I'm belaboring is that, in a real sense, there are so many
"successful" poets of various affinities and proclivities out there that all
but the favored few are "neglected" by definition.  So no one really has a
deep knowledge of the full field of contemporary poetry--it just wouldn't be
possible.  There may be some who have a broad knowledge, of course, but the
broader you go the less likely you are to go deep.

I have an old pal whose taste runs far more than mine does to the poets
discussed on the Poetics list at Buffalo, for example.  And one thing that's
struck me in talking with him over the years is how unaware he is of many
poets I admire, and vice versa, despite our both being addicted long-term
readers of contemporary poetry.  Occasionally we agree on something, such as
our admiration for August Kleinzahler, but often we just look blankly at
each other.

Examples could be multiplied almost indefinitely. . . .


====================================================
Getting Lost

*Get lost*, she said.
She did not have to give such good advice
Twice. I left.

Or, I got *lost*. 
What light!
Until I wasnt anywhere
I didnt know where I was.

I came back 
And said, 
*Here I am*.
*Who are you?*
She asked.

*I dont know anymore*,
I sighed.
Good, she said, 
*Then come inside*.

Inside it was 
wide and weird.
She clung and whispered,
*What shall I do?*
I whispered,

*Disappear*.
I did not have to give such good advice
Twice.
*Goodbye!* she shouted.
And drew near.


--Stan Rice.  *Singing Yet:  New & Selected Poems*.  Knopf, 1992.
[originally from *Whiteboy*, 1976]


---------------------------------------------
> 
> 
Dog

Dog you are an idiot.
Standing beside my chair
rainy day
eyes goofy gold, ever-hungering.
Impossible to feed you enough.
Impossible to fill your brown bowl.
I think we are similar.
As the angel beats in the drape
so do we stare at one another.
Man at dog, dog at man, over the gulf.
Yet sometimes you make me happy.
When I put on my jacket and you know
and you leap like a small horse.
What does riding in the car mean to you, I wonder.
No answer. Always the same brainless
bolt through the door, knocking people over,
up through the car window like a cat
through a hoop of fire.
Dog you complicate my life.
I can't move with you.
I can't bear the guilt of getting rid of you.
I sometimes think you are as intelligent
as a creature should get. Not really.
I'm glad I'm human. I'm glad I'm not a dog.
OK, Daisy, time to eat.
I know you don't like to go out in the rain.
I'll feed you in the kitchen.
BUT DON'T GET ANY SLOP ON THE FLOOR.
And she nods.

--Stan Rice.  *Singing Yet:  New & Selected Poems*.  Knopf, 1992.
[originally from *Some Lamb*, 1975]
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun  6 13:38:00 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:38:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?
Message-ID: <ea.5048f9d9.2df4b078@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/5/2004 7:39:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> But now that Smarty Jones lost, who cares?

Here's a call for an "ephemeral anthology" of horse racing
poems, if there are many or any that come to mind...
The daughter of Red Pollard, Seabiscuit's famed jockey,
is a poet--Nora Pollard
http://www.antrimhousebooks.com/pollard.html

NARRAGANSETT DARK

                                     -for my father
 

They led the horses away.
They tore down the fences.
The wreaking ball brought down
the grandstand, the clubhouse.
They plowed under the track kitchen,
the tack shop, the bettors' windows.
They burned the green barns.

When there was nothing of Narragansett
but a great empty space, the moon
glittered over it like a Vegas sign
and the wind blew dust across
900 acres to the Newport-Armistice roads.
The next day they paved.

Black asphalt covered the scent
of hay and the horse.
They built a drugstore,
a store for linoleum, and they
threw up subdivisions, aqua and mustard
and pink, whose mailboxes rusted 
before they were sold.
Then they built a nursing home

where now the old jockey lay in a narrow bed.
He did not know where he was
so the irony was lost to him,
but he knew his wife would come
and wash him and light him a cigarette

and put the swatches of cotton
between his toes and pour him
a small cup of blackberry brandy.
Long nights alone, after the t.v. was
shut off and the brandy gone,
he'd listen for something.
All the long dark nights, listening.

One night a lean March wind
rattled the gate and his heart labored
in his breast and he rose up
for he heard what he heard-
their soft nickering and blowing, the thin
rustle of silks, the creak
of saddle and the tick
of hoof on stone.

And he left the bed and went out
to where they stood in the grasses.
He stood before them and
their breath fell on him like cloud  
and he saw their great eyes pool the moon.
And the one waiting for him, 
the one with an empty saddle,
was a bay.
 
He mounted up and they rode under the moon
and the wind flared the mane of his horse
and was hard and clean on his face.
The others galloped on either side, silently,
as if they were running on moss or flowers,
and he went with them where they took him
into the fields of night.
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sun Jun  6 13:57:53 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:57:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?
References: <ea.5048f9d9.2df4b078@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002101c44bef$cbf2cb10$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I've always loved that poem of Nora's - sentimental, I know, but there's a place for that. 

I do have a horse racing poem...I'll check the site.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 1:38 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?


  In a message dated 6/5/2004 7:39:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    But now that Smarty Jones lost, who cares?


  Here's a call for an "ephemeral anthology" of horse racing
  poems, if there are many or any that come to mind...
  The daughter of Red Pollard, Seabiscuit's famed jockey,
  is a poet--Nora Pollard
  http://www.antrimhousebooks.com/pollard.html

  NARRAGANSETT DARK

                                       -for my father


  They led the horses away.
  They tore down the fences.
  The wreaking ball brought down
  the grandstand, the clubhouse.
  They plowed under the track kitchen,
  the tack shop, the bettors' windows.
  They burned the green barns.

  When there was nothing of Narragansett
  but a great empty space, the moon
  glittered over it like a Vegas sign
  and the wind blew dust across
  900 acres to the Newport-Armistice roads.
  The next day they paved.

  Black asphalt covered the scent
  of hay and the horse.
  They built a drugstore,
  a store for linoleum, and they
  threw up subdivisions, aqua and mustard
  and pink, whose mailboxes rusted 
  before they were sold.
  Then they built a nursing home

  where now the old jockey lay in a narrow bed.
  He did not know where he was
  so the irony was lost to him,
  but he knew his wife would come
  and wash him and light him a cigarette

  and put the swatches of cotton
  between his toes and pour him
  a small cup of blackberry brandy.
  Long nights alone, after the t.v. was
  shut off and the brandy gone,
  he'd listen for something.
  All the long dark nights, listening.

  One night a lean March wind
  rattled the gate and his heart labored
  in his breast and he rose up
  for he heard what he heard-
  their soft nickering and blowing, the thin
  rustle of silks, the creak
  of saddle and the tick
  of hoof on stone.

  And he left the bed and went out
  to where they stood in the grasses.
  He stood before them and
  their breath fell on him like cloud  
  and he saw their great eyes pool the moon.
  And the one waiting for him, 
  the one with an empty saddle,
  was a bay.

  He mounted up and they rode under the moon
  and the wind flared the mane of his horse
  and was hard and clean on his face.
  The others galloped on either side, silently,
  as if they were running on moss or flowers,
  and he went with them where they took him
  into the fields of night.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun  6 13:57:10 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:57:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspect: The Answer
References: <BCE8B318.9AB6%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00f201c44bef$b28564d0$46efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> One point I'm belaboring is that, in a real sense, there are so many
> "successful" poets of various affinities and proclivities out there that all
> but the favored few are "neglected" by definition.  So no one really has a
> deep knowledge of the full field of contemporary poetry--it just wouldn't be
> possible.

I don't claim to have a "deep knowledge of the full field of contemporary poetry," but I can't believe that not knowing a few or many widely-read poets necessarily precludes ones for having such a knowledge.  To me, having that knowledge would be a matter only of knowing all the varieties of poetry being done, and a few of the best poets doing each variety.  

As I keep saying, a list of schools would be a great help toward such knowledge.  The one I made that's at About Poetry has gotten hardly any attention, at all.  Nonetheless, I hope one of these days to update and improve it.

As for neglectedness, that would seem to be another area in need of taxonimization.  There are so many levels of recognition.  For instance, I can't consider myself "neglected" since I have gotten poems into a university press anthology, and entries into a few mainstream reference books.  I even sometimes am described as "well-known" in my own circle of poets.

Thinking further about it, I conclude that to be published--or, not even published but read--by one other person must make one not neglected.  I know: by "neglected," people don't mean wholly ignored but insufficiently recognized.  

In that sense, aren't all poets in America "neglected?"  I think Allen Ginsberg was the last living poet whose name might have been recognized by the majority of Americans as that of a poet.  Or is Maya Angelou that recognized?

Off the top of my head, I'd say poets fall into the following categories on the basis of their visibility:

1. Big Name Poets--like Ginsberg or Robert Frost were  

2. Name Poets--like Merwin, Collins--the big prize winners who are fairly well-known to intellectuals

3. Known Poets--like Stan Rich? I dunno, but I mean the many poets that get into the right anthologies, and are reviewed in real journals and win prizes here and there, but aren't well-known to intellectuals, or even to all those seriously involved with poetry

4. Little-Known Poets--I won't venture names but I mean poets who sometimes get into commercial anthologies and are considered good poets but not prize-winners by those people serious about poetry who know of them

5. Obscure Poets--Karl Kempton, John M. Bennett; poets working outside the mainstream and unknown or hardly known to anyone outside their school of poetry

6. Invisible Poets--poets who have appeared in print but not gotten connected to any school or discussed anywhere in print.  Mostly new poets.

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun  6 14:01:33 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:01:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unusual Suspects
Message-ID: <9f.4891fe2d.2df4b5fd@aol.com>

Jared Carter...

       Geodes

       They are useless, there is nothing
       to be done with them, no reason, only

       the finding: letting myself down holding
       to ironwood and the dry bristle of roots

       into the creekbed, into clear water shelved
       below the outcroppings, where crawdads spurt

       through silt; clawing them out of clay, scrubbing
       away the sand, setting them in a shaft of light

       to dry.  Sweat clings in the cliff's downdraft.
       I take each one up like a safecracker listening

       for the lapse within, the moment crystal turns
       on crystal.  It is all waiting there in darkness.

       I want to know only that things gather themselves
       with great patience, that they do this forever.


Jared Carter, from Work, for the Night Is Coming 
http://jaredcarter.com/poems/
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun  6 15:42:33 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 15:42:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems? (& Neglect Oddball Poets)
Message-ID: <79.2b6d43a3.2df4cda9@aol.com>

Straddling two categories, here's one by David Clewell.
I count Clewell as a friend, though I've been incorrigibly
incommunicado, and he's not an oddball really, but he has a
taste for all things wonderful & strange in his poetry. He writes 
long lined poems full of colloquialisms (often slightly turned)
in his sound-savvy prose-like poetry. 
A couple of his books are advertised on a UFO website, 
http://www.uforia-research.com/feud.htm
He also favors magicians, psychics, fortune tellers,
old diners, conspiracy theorists, hoaxes, etc.,
and here's a horse racing poem (with poets).
(I hope the long lines and italics don't get muddled.)


Why Certain Poets Have No Business at the Track

for Pete G

This afternoon the grandstand?s full of greenhorns betting horses
by the ring of their names in the suddenly rarefied racetrack air.
For the poets, the morning line?s always good enough
and now when the honest work should begin, they have nothing to do
with the latest numbers posted on the tote. They?ve got one system
down so cold it never wavers, splitting hairs of assonance
between Liar?s Dice and Will-o?-the-Wisp. They altogether rule out
Risky Business. Who?s a mudder, who?s a step away from glue, who?s
the jockey riding a streak? The poets can?t be bothered. Already
they have an image of themselves at home in their own bright silks,
worrying a possible line break instead of the hairline fracture
doctored moments before Sky?s the Limit falls into the gate.
It won?t be anything metaphorical when the 4-horse pulls up lame.

The poets have arrived at a consensus, and they?re off
racing to the last-minute window, laying their wrong money down.
It?s a good thing they?ve come with their usual little to lose.
That?s why, if Wordsworth were alive, he?d be much better off
somewhere in Vegas as baccarat, or better yet in the middle of
a backroom poker game, intoning some romantic variation 
on the predictable shut up and deal. At least he?d have some idea
he?s in way over his head, should go back to wandering lonely.
It?s a good thing Mr. Eliot and his buddies stayed mostly home.

The track exudes an easy sucker?s ambiance, too much temptation
to say to a certain poet?s self: through these binoculars I can see
the world in microcosm. They always get it that exactly
backwards, staring the wrong way through the glass, already
making everything in sight inconsequentially small.
And they?ll go home, poorer but immeasurably wiser, and write poems
and place them in the country?s most courageous magazines
where people brave enough to really read those kinds of things
will show them to meeker associates who will marvel at the pomp
and unlikely circumstance, the calculated risk of a little local color.
And the folks worlds away from those things, who wouldn?t find a copy
of Green Banana Street Review at their newsstand on a bet,
have no idea what they?re missing. Yet they seem so unreasonably happy

as long as the new day?s Racing Form is there, promising nothing but
what matters in every line, what?s actually worth remembering 
past the morning coffee, through the snarl of traffic on the way 
to another chance at their glorious day in the sun. And God, 
as the racetrack faithful enter their scratches, how they hope
the poets will stay home today. Or let them go fishing,
raise their eloquent children, or tour a few ruins
of ancient cities they can found sonnet sequences on.
A patient jock riding a quick horse is all good railbirds are asking.
The perfect alliance of form and content,
as that Frankie Villon would say to Not-So-Fast Eddie Poe
and they?d both laugh, were they not in their cups,
the odds of them sobering up in time to collect on their hunches
going off at an outrageous 100-1.


       (From _Now Were Getting Somewhere_,
       U of Wisconsin Press, 1994)
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  6 15:53:56 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:53:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...
References: <ae.59a5c81a.2df3a09e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV512P9Ap3mY00029d6d@hotmail.com>

"Charles Bukowski and the Nadir of American Poetry"

http://www.melicreview.com/cgibin/ess_archive.cgi?iss09.cechaffin.01


Here you go, James.  With a name like "Finnegan" I thought you might be a
lapsed Sufi.


--CE

----- Original Message ----- 
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Not impressed by Finlay...


In a message dated 6/5/2004 2:48:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes:


And that
I admire as a prerequisite for truly catholic taste, at which I sometimes
fail, as my essay on Bukowski, if anyone reads it, may observe...



Where is your essay on Sir Charles of LA.. I'm interested but
don't know it.
Finnegan
A Lapsed Catholic


From Thom424 at aol.com  Sun Jun  6 16:46:36 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:46:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?
Message-ID: <e6.50a8badb.2df4dcac@aol.com>

all of my bukowski collections are at the office, but i'm guessing you 
couldn't put together a horse racing anthology of poetry without a "buke" horse 
racing poem! (well, i guess you *could* if that was your editorial choice).

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun  6 20:17:51 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 20:17:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] List Housekeeping
Message-ID: <12b.4359e915.2df50e2f@aol.com>

Hey all, I was doing some late spring cleaning.
& I unsubbed some email addresses that seemed to 
be perpetually in No Mail status on the membership
list. 
The system auto-sets addresses to No Mail when 
it gets X-number of bounces, and I imagine most
of those set No Mail were actually defunct email
addresses.
If I unsubbed someone's secondary/alternate address,
feel free to go back to the webpage and re-sub 
that address, here...
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Jim Finnegan
List Manager
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sun Jun  6 20:31:07 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 20:31:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?
References: <ea.5048f9d9.2df4b078@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c44c26$baebcba0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Two of mine:



THE SPIRIT WORLD

 

No point looking

for them in castles with 

Gothic mansards, widows'

walks, or on deserted

moors.  Ghosts like action.  

That's why you'll find

so many at the track

--the prickle on your 

neck as you stand

at the five dollar 

window and say a name

 

(not one you'd figured)

seventeen to one at

the last tick

--the wind over your 

shoulder as the horses

enter the clubhouse 

turn, an echo

of your screams as the nag

makes a late bid, an acrid

scent as it fades

 

to fifth.  The ghosts don't 

follow the ponies, though no

trainer holds secrets from

them, though they'd have 

leisure to make the form

yield up its secret truths.

The truth is they don't care

who wins.  They don't need money.

They're in it for the jolt of

what only flesh holds in--

what blazes from eyes,

tugs stomachs like sex glands--

what winning snarls with

greed and responsibility,

but losing gives pure.

 





 

YOU'RE AT THE TRACK
 

You're at the track

leaving the pari

mutuel

window when this short guy

tugs your sleeve

 

hands you a tout sheet

you tip him

a buck and open it

zilch on the nags

instead there's a quote

 

ten million

to one says earth doesn't

get wiped out by

a supernova

price is right

 

could be you'll lay a deuce

go for the chalk

but you check the past

performance

earth's up to 200 

 

mil already

it's bucking the odds

you lay off

the next race and go home

checking the sky

 



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 1:38 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?


  In a message dated 6/5/2004 7:39:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    But now that Smarty Jones lost, who cares?


  Here's a call for an "ephemeral anthology" of horse racing
  poems, if there are many or any that come to mind...
  The daughter of Red Pollard, Seabiscuit's famed jockey,
  is a poet--Nora Pollard
  http://www.antrimhousebooks.com/pollard.html

  NARRAGANSETT DARK

                                       -for my father


  They led the horses away.
  They tore down the fences.
  The wreaking ball brought down
  the grandstand, the clubhouse.
  They plowed under the track kitchen,
  the tack shop, the bettors' windows.
  They burned the green barns.

  When there was nothing of Narragansett
  but a great empty space, the moon
  glittered over it like a Vegas sign
  and the wind blew dust across
  900 acres to the Newport-Armistice roads.
  The next day they paved.

  Black asphalt covered the scent
  of hay and the horse.
  They built a drugstore,
  a store for linoleum, and they
  threw up subdivisions, aqua and mustard
  and pink, whose mailboxes rusted 
  before they were sold.
  Then they built a nursing home

  where now the old jockey lay in a narrow bed.
  He did not know where he was
  so the irony was lost to him,
  but he knew his wife would come
  and wash him and light him a cigarette

  and put the swatches of cotton
  between his toes and pour him
  a small cup of blackberry brandy.
  Long nights alone, after the t.v. was
  shut off and the brandy gone,
  he'd listen for something.
  All the long dark nights, listening.

  One night a lean March wind
  rattled the gate and his heart labored
  in his breast and he rose up
  for he heard what he heard-
  their soft nickering and blowing, the thin
  rustle of silks, the creak
  of saddle and the tick
  of hoof on stone.

  And he left the bed and went out
  to where they stood in the grasses.
  He stood before them and
  their breath fell on him like cloud  
  and he saw their great eyes pool the moon.
  And the one waiting for him, 
  the one with an empty saddle,
  was a bay.

  He mounted up and they rode under the moon
  and the wind flared the mane of his horse
  and was hard and clean on his face.
  The others galloped on either side, silently,
  as if they were running on moss or flowers,
  and he went with them where they took him
  into the fields of night.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  7 00:19:33 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 23:19:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?
References: <ea.5048f9d9.2df4b078@aol.com> <001c01c44c26$baebcba0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV32MRKjvsnB00002a6d@hotmail.com>

Dear Old Mole,

I liked yours much better than Nora's.

Good work, thanks for sharing.

I lost a bit on Smarty but have no regrets.

Thine,

CE
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From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jun  7 07:11:50 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 07:11:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c44c80$3eec60a0$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Writing the transcendental pulse -
Laura Lubasch's To Tell the Lamp:
New classical, post avant

The problems of publishing:
What's a young poet to do?

Our own "Van Buren Cantos" -
What the 'deep end' of anybody's oeuvre
can teach us

A question from Lee Ann Brown:
How to find a new muse
(9 for 9 Poets Project, Question 6)

Using Jeff Clark's Music & Suicide
to discredit the post-avant:
Troy Jollimore in the SF Chronicle

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar
(June Swoon edition)

Ten questions
from Chicago Postmodern Poetry -
"What is your favorite curse word?"

The haunted poetics of
Peter Gizzi

Negativity & ambivalence -
Why more people read poetics than poetry

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 09:40:34 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:40:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?
References: <ea.5048f9d9.2df4b078@aol.com> <001c01c44c26$baebcba0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <BAY18-DAV32MRKjvsnB00002a6d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001c44c95$03d8bb70$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Hell of a race, though. Was watching some footage on Secretariat -- the entire running of the Belmont, not just the stretch run that they usually show -- and really getting the impact of the achievement. Almost as impressive - the Preakness, where he moved effortlessly, in the space of almost no time at all, from last to first.

I love the language of horse racing - it's economical and authentic. Anyone here watch World Poker Tour on cable TV? The action is good, but the language is slack and forced. The flop, the turn, the river...they sound made up, a bid for instant tradition.

How much does the impact of Nora Pollard's poems depend on her being Red Pollard's daughter, and to the emotional groundwork laid by  Laura Hillenbrand in Seabiscuit? That's an interesting question up to a point, but ultimately beside the point. Whether art hits home matters more than why it hits home. You can't study how to have a background that resonates, but it is going to play a part. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: C. E. Chaffin 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 12:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Horse Racing poems?


  Dear Old Mole,

  I liked yours much better than Nora's.

  Good work, thanks for sharing.

  I lost a bit on Smarty but have no regrets.

  Thine,

  CE
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Jun  7 10:29:27 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 07:29:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
In-Reply-To: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net>

           THE POET'S GAME

The poet's game
  is baseball
  because every spit, wacky
  third-base signal
  each organ-blare
  the green green grass at Fenway
  counts (even, a bit,
  the score).

  And the poet's music
  is jazz
  because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
  he never even
  gets back to the tune
  which is also
  always
  nonetheless

  there.

  The journey
  marimbas
  along the ribs

  to imply
  the spine.

  Oh, and the poet's soup
  is Minestrone.

  -- Barry Spacks
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Jun  7 10:59:16 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:59:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost>

On 7 Jun 2004 at 7:29, Barry Spacks wrote:
> THE POET'S GAME
> 
> The poet's game 
> is baseball 

In every piece of writing one demand
Controls:  that if you see what I can see
And hear what I can hear, you?ll understand
What I have meant. The reader has to be
As desperately engaged in hand-to-hand
Meaning as the writer; but paid or free,
And whether long or brief, the writer's task
Is answering what readers want to ask.







From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Jun  7 11:01:04 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 08:01:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net>

Don't know about a thread, but that's a damn fine poem.

-  Jim

Barry Spacks wrote:
> 
>           THE POET'S GAME
> 
> The poet's game
>  is baseball
>  because every spit, wacky
>  third-base signal
>  each organ-blare
>  the green green grass at Fenway
>  counts (even, a bit,
>  the score).
> 
>  And the poet's music
>  is jazz
>  because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
>  he never even
>  gets back to the tune
>  which is also
>  always
>  nonetheless
> 
>  there.
> 
>  The journey
>  marimbas
>  along the ribs
> 
>  to imply
>  the spine.
> 
>  Oh, and the poet's soup
>  is Minestrone.
> 
>  -- Barry Spacks


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jun  7 11:19:40 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:19:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I never liked _minestrone_, they wanted me to eat it because it was good for
me, they said. Then in Florence they served _fettunta (fetta unta - oily
slice of bread with garlic)_ and _la ribollita (boiled and re-boiled
vegetables)_ with raw olive oil poured at the end and chunks of unsalted
bread dipped in it - maybe I was terribly hungry, but I finally liked the
_minestrone_!

Have no idea if this is interesting, it can be filed under _international
cuisine_ with the recipe for the gourmand:
http://www.divinacucina.com/code/ribollita.html
cheers, Anny

From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 5:01 PM


> Don't know about a thread, but that's a damn fine poem.
>
> -  Jim
>
> Barry Spacks wrote:
> >
> >           THE POET'S GAME
> >
> > The poet's game
> >  is baseball
> >  because every spit, wacky
> >  third-base signal
> >  each organ-blare
> >  the green green grass at Fenway
> >  counts (even, a bit,
> >  the score).
> >
> >  And the poet's music
> >  is jazz
> >  because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
> >  he never even
> >  gets back to the tune
> >  which is also
> >  always
> >  nonetheless
> >
> >  there.
> >
> >  The journey
> >  marimbas
> >  along the ribs
> >
> >  to imply
> >  the spine.
> >
> >  Oh, and the poet's soup
> >  is Minestrone.
> >
> >  -- Barry Spacks
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 11:39:27 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:39:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008a01c44ca5$9f3f3110$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

It is. I like it a lot.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread


> Don't know about a thread, but that's a damn fine poem.
> 
> -  Jim
> 
> Barry Spacks wrote:
> > 
> >           THE POET'S GAME
> > 
> > The poet's game
> >  is baseball
> >  because every spit, wacky
> >  third-base signal
> >  each organ-blare
> >  the green green grass at Fenway
> >  counts (even, a bit,
> >  the score).
> > 
> >  And the poet's music
> >  is jazz
> >  because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
> >  he never even
> >  gets back to the tune
> >  which is also
> >  always
> >  nonetheless
> > 
> >  there.
> > 
> >  The journey
> >  marimbas
> >  along the ribs
> > 
> >  to imply
> >  the spine.
> > 
> >  Oh, and the poet's soup
> >  is Minestrone.
> > 
> >  -- Barry Spacks
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 11:54:54 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:54:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <00a101c44ca7$c7f1d2a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I know I've done my quota for this month, but these will be for November 2003, when I didn't post anything.

Keeping Barry's thread going with two answer poems.


IOWA CITY, 1962

 

Donald Justice playing

softball, dark shades

cloaking his courtliness

like a bandit's mask on an

 

owl, but he'll not be

courtly for long

anyway: a call goes

against him, and his cheeks flame,

 

his arm goes up in a

pumping protest

against the vagaries

of wind, spin, fingertips' torque -

 

the only subtleties

to elude him?

I so wanted to be

like him then, not that I'd have

 

admitted it-only 

that innocence,

that wild softball passion,

that one hapless assurance.







 

SHE SAID
 

She said jazz

is how life should be

flexible rhythm but

you count it off

beyond that

 

improvisation

melody left behind

now it's your call

you know where

the roots are you don't

 

know where it's taking you

she herself was

Chet Baker

Gerry Mulligan

touching where you didn't

 

know you tingled

or she was

Thelonious Monk

threading her way along

narrow pathways

 

with broad steps

on either side are

Arizona cactus

long spined blooming

endangered







  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barry Spacks 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:29 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread


            THE POET'S GAME

  The poet's game 
   is baseball 
   because every spit, wacky 
   third-base signal 
   each organ-blare 
   the green green grass at Fenway 
   counts (even, a bit, 
   the score). 
   
   And the poet's music 
   is jazz 
   because when Bird plays "Cherokee" 
   he never even 
   gets back to the tune 
   which is also 
   always 
   nonetheless 
   
   there. 
   
   The journey 
   marimbas 
   along the ribs 
   
   to imply 
   the spine. 
   
   Oh, and the poet's soup 
   is Minestrone.

   -- Barry Spacks
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 12:47:39 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:47:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost>
Message-ID: <001701c44caf$26a5bbc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Marcus - I like this except that I don't think the concluding couplet gets
it right. I think the writer's task is ... just hazarding a shot here ... to
ask what readers don't know they want to ask?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread


On 7 Jun 2004 at 7:29, Barry Spacks wrote:
> THE POET'S GAME
>
> The poet's game
> is baseball

In every piece of writing one demand
Controls:  that if you see what I can see
And hear what I can hear, you'll understand
What I have meant. The reader has to be
As desperately engaged in hand-to-hand
Meaning as the writer; but paid or free,
And whether long or brief, the writer's task
Is answering what readers want to ask.





_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cc at opus0.com  Mon Jun  7 13:02:46 2004
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:02:46 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: to maybe start a thread
In-Reply-To: <200406071539.i57Fd2XE025026@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHOEEGCOAA.cc@opus0.com>

Yes Barry!
Baseball: quit when I was nine after making "majors" when a ball hit to left
field (my position, of course) went between my legs and I was attacked by
three or four teammates in tears because we didn't win third place on
account of my error.

Jazz: Bird!  How I love that good gone guy.  (Sorry, can't bring myself to
call him a cat.)  Just now listening to an internet radion station called
"ATtention Span Radio: Post-bop jazz for the tragically hip." haha!
http://www.live365.com/

Marimba: Throw out the glockenspiel!

Minestrone: What is it?


> From: Barry Spacks <barry.spacks at verizon.net>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread

>            THE POET'S GAME
>
> The poet's game
>   is baseball
>   because every spit, wacky
>   third-base signal
>   each organ-blare
>   the green green grass at Fenway
>   counts (even, a bit,
>   the score).
>
>   And the poet's music
>   is jazz
>   because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
>   he never even
>   gets back to the tune
>   which is also
>   always
>   nonetheless
>
>   there.
>
>   The journey
>   marimbas
>   along the ribs
>
>   to imply
>   the spine.
>
>   Oh, and the poet's soup
>   is Minestrone.
>
>   -- Barry Spacks




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun  7 14:05:10 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:05:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <010f01c44cb9$fae13360$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



            THE POET'S GAME

  The poet's game 
   is baseball 
   because every spit, wacky 
   third-base signal 
   each organ-blare 
   the green green grass at Fenway 
   counts (even, a bit, 
   the score). 
   
   And the poet's music 
   is jazz 
   because when Bird plays "Cherokee" 
   he never even 
   gets back to the tune 
   which is also 
   always 
   nonetheless 
   
   there. 
   
   The journey 
   marimbas 
   along the ribs 
   
   to imply 
   the spine. 
   
   Oh, and the poet's soup 
   is Minestrone.

   -- Barry Spacks

  I find this poem entertaining about baseball and jazz, and amusing about "the poet's soup," but not in any deep way about poetry.  Everything imaginable has something in common with poetry, and some poetry gets by just fine without having any named ingredient such as "counting" in every detail (except in the sense that everything can be said to "count" in some fashion in any human endeavor) or not returning to a tune.

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun  7 14:20:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:20:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost> <001701c44caf$26a5bbc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <012c01c44cbc$30767a10$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


>I think the writer's task is ... just hazarding a shot here ... to
> ask what readers don't know they want to ask?

One of the questions immediately occurring to me upon reading the poem is,
"What readers?"  That is, whose questions should a poem answer, if it
answers questions? Another is, "Why should a poem necessarily answer rather
than, say, inspire valuable questions?"  Which is what the mole, I think, is
suggesting.  Or just be there, outside question/answer.

--Bob G.




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 14:32:06 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:32:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <010f01c44cb9$fae13360$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <007501c44cbd$bdd9bd30$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

          THE POET'S GAME

The poet's game 
 is baseball 
 because every spit, wacky 
 third-base signal 
 each organ-blare 
 the green green grass at Fenway 
 counts (even, a bit, 
 the score). 
 
 And the poet's music 
 is jazz 
 because when Bird plays "Cherokee" 
 he never even 
 gets back to the tune 
 which is also 
 always 
 nonetheless 
 
 there. 
 
 The journey 
 marimbas 
 along the ribs 
 
 to imply 
 the spine. 
 
 Oh, and the poet's soup 
 is Minestrone.

 -- Barry Spacks

    I find this poem entertaining about baseball and jazz, and amusing about "the poet's soup," but not in any deep way about poetry.  Everything imaginable has something in common with poetry, and some poetry gets by just fine without having any named ingredient such as "counting" in every detail (except in the sense that everything can be said to "count" in some fashion in any human endeavor) or not returning to a tune.

    --Bob G.

I don't know that it's the poet's obligation to satisfy everyone's definition of poetry across all its taxonomies - only to deliver a poem that will satisfy.

Tad
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 14:33:34 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:33:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost> <001701c44caf$26a5bbc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <012c01c44cbc$30767a10$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <008401c44cbd$f26b8880$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

How does this gibe with your critique of Barry's poem, which seemed to
demand that it cover all poems, and all readers?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread


>
>
> >I think the writer's task is ... just hazarding a shot here ... to
> > ask what readers don't know they want to ask?
>
> One of the questions immediately occurring to me upon reading the poem is,
> "What readers?"  That is, whose questions should a poem answer, if it
> answers questions? Another is, "Why should a poem necessarily answer
rather
> than, say, inspire valuable questions?"  Which is what the mole, I think,
is
> suggesting.  Or just be there, outside question/answer.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 14:43:42 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:43:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <009c01c44cbf$5cd00e20$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

By Donald Finkel:

CONCERNING THE TRANSMISSION

 

You might say the same of poetry: 

you've sunk too much in it

to quit now, driving

good hours after bad

too much of you wound

round the wires and the hoses.

 

You might stop addressing

this absence beside you,

cursing through the intricate 

cities, singing in the high passes,

- tooling down freeways,

minding the numbers,

ears pricked for oracular

 tappings, limping past fields

of sullen junkers, eyeholes crawling 

with nettle and goldenrod.

 

If you let go now, the bearings

will scream from their orbits,

the rocker arms clang in their cylinders 

and the needles return to their various zeroes, 

as if your hands had never clenched

this sweaty wheel.





  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barry Spacks 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:29 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread


            THE POET'S GAME

  The poet's game 
   is baseball 
   because every spit, wacky 
   third-base signal 
   each organ-blare 
   the green green grass at Fenway 
   counts (even, a bit, 
   the score). 
   
   And the poet's music 
   is jazz 
   because when Bird plays "Cherokee" 
   he never even 
   gets back to the tune 
   which is also 
   always 
   nonetheless 
   
   there. 
   
   The journey 
   marimbas 
   along the ribs 
   
   to imply 
   the spine. 
   
   Oh, and the poet's soup 
   is Minestrone.

   -- Barry Spacks
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun  7 16:23:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:23:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost> <001701c44caf$26a5bbc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <012c01c44cbc$30767a10$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008401c44cbd$f26b8880$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <016f01c44ccd$60b5cb70$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> How does this gibe with your critique of Barry's poem, which seemed to
> demand that it cover all poems, and all readers?

I made no such demand, so far as I can see.  What I was pointing out is that comparing poetry to baseball and jazz is trivial since it can just as well be compared with croquet and folk-singing.  A better poem would compare poetry more thoroughly to something else, would find more than one ingredient that it has in common with what it is compared to.  Or maybe do more with the one ingredient. 

Also, a poem presented as a statement ought to be able to make its case better.  A poet's game seems to me as much not baseball as it is baseball.

Reflecting on my own recent practice--when I was working on a series of poems about what poetry is, a series at my blog (http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Gallery-A.html) 
that I plan to add to--I realize that my preference would be poetic implicit definitions of poetry; my definitions all come out as variations of "poetic distortion" (more or less) times some X (e.g., "words") plus some Y (e.g., "friendship") that I leave unexplained.  The reader has to try to make sense of it--I don't tell him (in the poem) that all I'm saying is that poetry is, in this case, words treated poetically plus the friendly intention to give pleasure, to put it crudely, the way Barry tells us that poetry is something every detail of which counts.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun  7 16:31:33 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:31:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <009c01c44cbf$5cd00e20$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <018001c44cce$6f2116f0$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  By Donald Finkel:

  CONCERNING THE TRANSMISSION

   

  You might say the same of poetry: 

  you've sunk too much in it

  to quit now, driving

  good hours after bad

  too much of you wound

  round the wires and the hoses.

   

  You might stop addressing

  this absence beside you,

  cursing through the intricate 

  cities, singing in the high passes,

  - tooling down freeways,

  minding the numbers,

  ears pricked for oracular

   tappings, limping past fields

  of sullen junkers, eyeholes crawling 

  with nettle and goldenrod.

   

  If you let go now, the bearings

  will scream from their orbits,

  the rocker arms clang in their cylinders 

  and the needles return to their various zeroes, 

  as if your hands had never clenched

  this sweaty wheel.



  This one works better for me than Barry's, one reason for that being that it is an extended simile rather than an implied definition, and it's not about poetry but about making a poem, or reading a poem.



  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun  7 17:58:59 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:58:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Defense of the Lax Poem Delayed
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <009c01c44cbf$5cd00e20$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <018001c44cce$6f2116f0$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <01ce01c44cda$a5563b90$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I wrote 500 words about Lax's "river" two days ago, then added 200 more words to it yesterday.  I don't think I have anything more to say about it but the writing is awkward, the piece poorly organized, and I need a respite from it.  All I can say now is that I will eventually post it.  (Didn't want anyone to think I was hoping everyone would forget about it.)

--Bob G.

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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  7 11:21:47 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:21:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost> <001701c44caf$26a5bbc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <012c01c44cbc$30767a10$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV57YAPNXRPm00001a51@hotmail.com>

I think the greatest compliment I've ever received, and I'm sure many of you
have heard it yourselves, is:

"You said what I wished I could say in a way I couldn't have said it.   You
spoke for me."

--CE




>
>
> >I think the writer's task is ... just hazarding a shot here ... to
> > ask what readers don't know they want to ask?
>
> One of the questions immediately occurring to me upon reading the poem is,
> "What readers?"  That is, whose questions should a poem answer, if it
> answers questions? Another is, "Why should a poem necessarily answer
rather
> than, say, inspire valuable questions?"  Which is what the mole, I think,
is
> suggesting.  Or just be there, outside question/answer.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun  7 20:53:57 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 20:53:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost> <001701c44caf$26a5bbc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <012c01c44cbc$30767a10$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV57YAPNXRPm00001a51@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <011701c44cf3$158ecae0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

CE - that really is what we strive for, isn't it?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread


> I think the greatest compliment I've ever received, and I'm sure many of
you
> have heard it yourselves, is:
>
> "You said what I wished I could say in a way I couldn't have said it.
You
> spoke for me."
>
> --CE
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > >I think the writer's task is ... just hazarding a shot here ... to
> > > ask what readers don't know they want to ask?
> >
> > One of the questions immediately occurring to me upon reading the poem
is,
> > "What readers?"  That is, whose questions should a poem answer, if it
> > answers questions? Another is, "Why should a poem necessarily answer
> rather
> > than, say, inspire valuable questions?"  Which is what the mole, I
think,
> is
> > suggesting.  Or just be there, outside question/answer.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun  7 21:38:16 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 21:38:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] to maybe start a thread
References: <200406040206.i54262XE028003@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <40C44A84.22592.864F7EF@localhost> <001701c44caf$26a5bbc0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <012c01c44cbc$30767a10$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV57YAPNXRPm00001a51@hotmail.com> <011701c44cf3$158ecae0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <021d01c44cf9$4744b7b0$4cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

 
> > I think the greatest compliment I've ever received, and I'm sure many of
> you
> > have heard it yourselves, is:
> >
> > "You said what I wished I could say in a way I couldn't have said it.
> You
> > spoke for me."

> > --CE


> CE - that really is what we strive for, isn't it?

Not I, though I wouldn't mind getting it.  What I would want is someone to say something along the lines of, "Wow, what a rich a fascinating new world you've opened up for me."  Worse, what I want even more is to open up a rich and fascinating world for myself.  The more willing to share it with me, the better, but not to open up such a world for myself would not be worth doing no matter how many thought I was speaking for them in a way they couldn't themselves.

--Bob G., self-immolator deluxe
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jun  7 22:46:18 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:46:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester UnivWersity Poetry Conference
Message-ID: <5b.508fbca2.2df6827a@aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Peich, Michael 
To: nanders1 at swarthmore.edu
Sent: 6/7/2004 12:26 PM
Subject: WCU Poetry Conference


The West Chester UnivWersity Poetry Conference celebrates its tenth
anniversary June 9-12, 2004 with several poetry readings. All the
readings are free and open to the public.

June 9: 8:15 P. M., Swope Hall Auditorium: Dana Gioia will read from his
libretto for the one-act opera, Tony Caruso's Final Broadcast, with
musical excerpts.

June 10: 8:15 P. M., Sykes Theater: David Yezzi, Rhina Espaillat, H. L.
Hix, Marilyn Nelson, and Glyn Maxwell

June 11: 8:15 P. M., Sykes Theater: David Mason, Diane Thiel, Mark
Jarman, Molly Peacock, and Fred Chappell

June 12: 8:15 P. M., Sykes Theater: R. S. Gwynn, Emily Grosholz, Timothy
Steele, Kim Addonizio, and B. H. Fairchild.

For more information about the daily programs and workshops, consult our
website: http://www.wcupa.edu/_academics/sch_cas/poetry/index.html
<http://www.wcupa.edu/_academics/sch_cas/poetry/index.html> 

Prof. Michael Peich, Director
West Chester University Poetry Center
Department of English
West Chester University
West Chester, PA 19383
610.436.3235
mpeich at wcupa.edu


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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jun  8 17:23:25 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:23:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com>

FLASHPOINT #7
 >                                         Summer 2004
 >                                http://www.flashpointmag.com
 >
 >                                      BLOOMSDAY 2004
 >
 >                                               &
 >
 >                             LOUIS ZUKOFSKY CENTENNIAL
 >
 >                                          as well as
 >
 >                                CARL RAKOSI at 100
 >
 >                John Ryskamp  Thomas A. Clark  Robert Hampson
 >                         Mark Scroggins   Bradford Haas
 >           Rod Rosenquist   Rosemarie Waldrop   Burt Kimmelman
 >                Hugh Seidman   Larry Waugh   Mark Kuniya
 >                        Kevin Fitzgerald   Burt Hatlen
 >                   Carlo Parcelli   JR Foley   Joe Brennan
 >


>  
>


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Jun  9 12:55:58 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:55:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
Message-ID: <016101c44e42$a4ea8ee0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Logan on Oppen, Franz Wright, Hoagland  - http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/22/june04/logan.htm


And I know I'm a bad person for this, but I continue to really like Logan, his sneering putdowns and all. He's a good, clever prose stylist, but that in itself wouldn't be enough to make me like him. His skewers are always focused...he's really read, and thought about, the poets he's destroying. You don't have to agree with his conclusions to appreciate his critiques. And he's not unfair in his quotes from the poems -- he gives you enough to make your own judgments.

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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  9 16:12:13 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 22:12:13 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com>

Founding Editors:
Joe Brennan
Carlo Parcelli


Including:

"eschatology of reason: the north tower"
carlo parcelli 

poetic giants caught in the web
     vs. 40 millimeters and a mole:
          if you criticize the high-modernists
               from the position of "obscurity" nowadays,
                    you're just a lazy fuck!
carlo parcelli 



Must have been hard for the poet to get these past the editor.  

--CE








From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jun  9 16:32:32 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:32:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com>

A twit like you couldn't imagine the effort. The ambition was never 
misplaced e.g. always in the work. CP

C. E. Chaffin wrote:

>Founding Editors:
>Joe Brennan
>Carlo Parcelli
>
>
>Including:
>
>"eschatology of reason: the north tower"
>carlo parcelli 
>
>poetic giants caught in the web
>     vs. 40 millimeters and a mole:
>          if you criticize the high-modernists
>               from the position of "obscurity" nowadays,
>                    you're just a lazy fuck!
>carlo parcelli 
>
>
>
>Must have been hard for the poet to get these past the editor.  
>
>--CE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jun  9 19:42:49 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 17:42:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>

Ah, I love being called a "twit."

Glad my jab was so happily received.

We at _Melic_, like most respectable magazines, don't publish poetry by our
editors.

Kudos for you daring!

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7


> A twit like you couldn't imagine the effort. The ambition was never
> misplaced e.g. always in the work. CP
>
> C. E. Chaffin wrote:
>
> >Founding Editors:
> >Joe Brennan
> >Carlo Parcelli
> >
> >
> >Including:
> >
> >"eschatology of reason: the north tower"
> >carlo parcelli
> >
> >poetic giants caught in the web
> >     vs. 40 millimeters and a mole:
> >          if you criticize the high-modernists
> >               from the position of "obscurity" nowadays,
> >                    you're just a lazy fuck!
> >carlo parcelli
> >
> >
> >
> >Must have been hard for the poet to get these past the editor.
> >
> >--CE
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jun  9 18:38:37 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:38:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40C7916D.1090307@ix.netcom.com>

 "Respectable." That's what we get in our poetry.

But you're not adverse to pump, pump pumpin' yourself up. I would have 
thought that a self-inflated, windbag like yourself would appreciate the 
PR dimension since I'm certain you find nothing of substance to address. 
Your canard makes Bob's self-inflation almost seem like folk art. CP 


C. E. Chaffin wrote:

>Ah, I love being called a "twit."
>
>Glad my jab was so happily received.
>
>We at _Melic_, like most respectable magazines, don't publish poetry by our
>editors.
>
>Kudos for you daring!
>
>--CE
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
>
>
>  
>
>>A twit like you couldn't imagine the effort. The ambition was never
>>misplaced e.g. always in the work. CP
>>
>>C. E. Chaffin wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Founding Editors:
>>>Joe Brennan
>>>Carlo Parcelli
>>>
>>>
>>>Including:
>>>
>>>"eschatology of reason: the north tower"
>>>carlo parcelli
>>>
>>>poetic giants caught in the web
>>>    vs. 40 millimeters and a mole:
>>>         if you criticize the high-modernists
>>>              from the position of "obscurity" nowadays,
>>>                   you're just a lazy fuck!
>>>carlo parcelli
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Must have been hard for the poet to get these past the editor.
>>>
>>>--CE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jun  9 08:49:06 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 08:49:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Tampa Bay
Message-ID: <40C6CF02.30209.5F1E3F@localhost>

In Tampa Bay

In Tampa Bay they celebrate
Their winning team; they think it's great
That western culture's woven strands
Have marked this moment on the sands
In Tampa Bay.

They cheer their own ironic fate,
A city in a tropic state:
The Stanley Cup is in their hands
In Tampa Bay.

All of civilization stands
Unterrorized where sport demands
That rules and bounds can harness hate --
At least while hockey players skate
In Tampa Bay.




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jun  9 18:44:20 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 18:44:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40C792C4.8010805@ix.netcom.com>

After all C.E., you did use the opportunity to mention your own tired 
magazine.

About your liking being called a "twit". I suspected as much. CP


C. E. Chaffin wrote:

>Ah, I love being called a "twit."
>
>Glad my jab was so happily received.
>
>We at _Melic_, like most respectable magazines, don't publish poetry by our
>editors.
>
>Kudos for you daring!
>
>--CE
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
>
>
>  
>
>>A twit like you couldn't imagine the effort. The ambition was never
>>misplaced e.g. always in the work. CP
>>
>>C. E. Chaffin wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Founding Editors:
>>>Joe Brennan
>>>Carlo Parcelli
>>>
>>>
>>>Including:
>>>
>>>"eschatology of reason: the north tower"
>>>carlo parcelli
>>>
>>>poetic giants caught in the web
>>>    vs. 40 millimeters and a mole:
>>>         if you criticize the high-modernists
>>>              from the position of "obscurity" nowadays,
>>>                   you're just a lazy fuck!
>>>carlo parcelli
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Must have been hard for the poet to get these past the editor.
>>>
>>>--CE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jun  9 19:00:29 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:00:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40C7968D.9010402@ix.netcom.com>

<We at _Melic_,[another plug] or New Yorker [plug] like most respectable magazines, don't publish poetry by our
editors.>


Let's put it to this sad, sappy list. Should poetry be more respectable? 
Less respectable? Is it just goddam right, baby bear?
What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard. No 
one would ever accuse you of not being "respectable."  But  what has 
respectability done for your poetry? How 'bout you Graham? You've read 
more crap than a prisoner at Abu Graib can chunk down on all you can eat 
night? How's that helped you? Made you too tame. What about you Dillon; 
you of the political right? What kind of crabbed subject matter has your 
world view forced on the maniac inside? Bob. What about you, you wild 
man? You've got to have an opinion? Your poetry is quite respectable, 
but might benefit if it were as quirky as you.  You'd be seen as a nut.  
But you could crank it up several notches. You're a natural, unlike 
Chaffin, you don't worry about what other people think of you. Though 
like Chaffin you dot suppose there's something in it for you down here 
etched on the pinhea with all those fat ass MFAs squatting on your head. 
Ironically, you don't even hear them your so wrapped up in yourself.

But what about it. Is "respectability" what poetry needs? Huh, James? CP

>We at _Melic_, like most respectable magazines, don't publish poetry by our
>editors.
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
>
>
>  
>
>>A twit like you couldn't imagine the effort. The ambition was never
>>misplaced e.g. always in the work. CP
>>
>>C. E. Chaffin wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Founding Editors:
>>>Joe Brennan
>>>Carlo Parcelli
>>>
>>>
>>>Including:
>>>
>>>"eschatology of reason: the north tower"
>>>carlo parcelli
>>>
>>>poetic giants caught in the web
>>>    vs. 40 millimeters and a mole:
>>>         if you criticize the high-modernists
>>>              from the position of "obscurity" nowadays,
>>>                   you're just a lazy fuck!
>>>carlo parcelli
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Must have been hard for the poet to get these past the editor.
>>>
>>>--CE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun  9 19:33:46 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:33:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
Message-ID: <8e.d0f2bae.2df8f85a@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/9/2004 7:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:

> Let's put it to this sad, sappy list. Should poetry be more respectable? 
> Less respectable? Is it just goddam right, baby bear?
> What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard. No 
> one would ever accuse you of not being "respectable."  But  what has 
> respectability done for your poetry? How 'bout you Graham? You've read 
> more crap than a prisoner at Abu Graib can chunk down on all you can eat 
> night? How's that helped you? Made you too tame. What about you Dillon; 
> you of the political right? What kind of crabbed subject matter has your 
> world view forced on the maniac inside? Bob. What about you, you wild 
> man? You've got to have an opinion? Your poetry is quite respectable, 
> but might benefit if it were as quirky as you.  You'd be seen as a nut.  
> But you could crank it up several notches. You're a natural, unlike 
> Chaffin, you don't worry about what other people think of you. Though 
> like Chaffin you dot suppose there's something in it for you down here 
> etched on the pinhea with all those fat ass MFAs squatting on your head. 
> Ironically, you don't even hear them your so wrapped up in yourself.
> 
> But what about it. Is "respectability" what poetry needs? Huh, James? CP
> 

Carlo, poor Carlo. The poetry world's jackboot on your neck again, eh.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun  9 19:40:16 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:40:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Tampa Bay
Message-ID: <28.488c1b71.2df8f9e0@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/9/2004 7:08:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> In Tampa Bay
> 
> In Tampa Bay they celebrate
> Their winning team; they think it's great
> That western culture's woven strands
> Have marked this moment on the sands
> In Tampa Bay.
> 
> They cheer their own ironic fate,
> A city in a tropic state:
> The Stanley Cup is in their hands
> In Tampa Bay.
> 
> All of civilization stands
> Unterrorized where sport demands
> That rules and bounds can harness hate --
> At least while hockey players skate
> In Tampa Bay.
> 

I like this, Marcus, but I have a suggested title:
When Tampa Bay Freezes Over.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  9 20:03:44 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:03:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <03dd01c44e7e$6b4caf10$4defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Ah, I love being called a "twit."
> 
> Glad my jab was so happily received.
> 
> We at _Melic_, like most respectable magazines, don't publish poetry by our
> editors.

Yikes, I'm very much against that.  I almost think magazines publishing should be required to publish poetry by their editors to let readers better know what kind of editors run the magazine.

--Bob G., never a fan of respectability
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  9 20:10:22 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:10:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C7916D.1090307@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <03e101c44e7f$554d9f20$4defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>I would have
> thought that a self-inflated, windbag like yourself would appreciate the
> PR dimension since I'm certain you find nothing of substance to address.
> Your canard makes Bob's self-inflation almost seem like folk art. CP

Baloney.  Not only is there no comparison between my self-inflation and CE's
but CE doesn't come across as self-inflated, at all, to me.  Even when I
disagree with him.

--Bob G.




From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jun  9 20:25:44 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 20:25:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40C7AA88.8040609@ix.netcom.com>


Do not direct any of your comments to me. I am not going to read any 
postings at this site for 6 months.

At the moment, I am writing another Assassinated. Press because I have 
received only 2 death threats today. And I thought Ronnie High Colonic 
was so revered in certain circles.

In six months, I'm going to search out your poetry and see if anybody 
has grown any hair on their balls. CP

>  
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun  9 21:24:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:24:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C7968D.9010402@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <042d01c44e89$bbbfece0$4defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Let's put it to this sad, sappy list. Should poetry be more respectable? 
> Less respectable? Is it just goddam right, baby bear?
> What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard. No 
> one would ever accuse you of not being "respectable."  But  what has 
> respectability done for your poetry? How 'bout you Graham? You've read 
> more crap than a prisoner at Abu Graib can chunk down on all you can eat 
> night? How's that helped you? Made you too tame. What about you Dillon; 
> you of the political right? What kind of crabbed subject matter has your 
> world view forced on the maniac inside? Bob. What about you, you wild 
> man? You've got to have an opinion? Your poetry is quite respectable, 
> but might benefit if it were as quirky as you.

Just what do you know of my poetry, CP?  I suspect there are a few people who would consider some of my poems lacking respectability.  And they haven't read my racist sexist blasphemous western play in blank verse, Barbaric Bart.  Generally speaking, however, I'm into other things than how respectable my art is.

>You'd be seen as a nut.

Wow, you don't think I already am?
  
> But you could crank it up several notches. You're a natural, unlike 
> Chaffin, you don't worry about what other people think of you. Though 
> like Chaffin you dot suppose there's something in it for you down here 
> etched on the pinhea with all those fat ass MFAs squatting on your head. 

Clarify, please.  I'm really eager to learn.

--Robert Respectabert
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun  9 21:51:53 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 20:51:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Common: Milosz
Message-ID: <BCED28E9.9C85%grahamd@ripon.edu>

In Common


What is good? Garlic. A leg of lamb on a spit.
Wine with a view of boats rocking in a cove.
A starry sky in August. A rest on a mountain peak.

What is good? After a long drive water in a pool and a sauna. Lovemaking and
falling asleep, embraced, your legs touching hers.
Mist in the morning, translucent, announcing a sunny day.

I am submerged in everything that is common to us, the living.
Experiencing this earth for them, in my flesh.
Walking past the vague outline of skyscrapers? anti-temples?
In valleys of beautiful, though poisoned, rivers.

--Czeslaw Milosz.  Trans. Milosz & Robert Hass.  *Provinces: Poems
1987-1991*.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Jun 10 01:35:25 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:35:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Common: Milosz
References: <BCED28E9.9C85%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002101c44eac$bfc5f6e0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Cowboys love smoky old poolrooms and clear mountain mornings
Little warm puppies and children and girls of the night....


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:51 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Common: Milosz


> In Common
>
>
> What is good? Garlic. A leg of lamb on a spit.
> Wine with a view of boats rocking in a cove.
> A starry sky in August. A rest on a mountain peak.
>
> What is good? After a long drive water in a pool and a sauna. Lovemaking
and
> falling asleep, embraced, your legs touching hers.
> Mist in the morning, translucent, announcing a sunny day.
>
> I am submerged in everything that is common to us, the living.
> Experiencing this earth for them, in my flesh.
> Walking past the vague outline of skyscrapers? anti-temples?
> In valleys of beautiful, though poisoned, rivers.
>
> --Czeslaw Milosz.  Trans. Milosz & Robert Hass.  *Provinces: Poems
> 1987-1991*.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 10 02:49:23 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 01:49:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bosley Clinic Report.....
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607072642.00b99a20@incoming.verizon.net> <40C4832F.90830F83@earthlink.net> <009101c44ca2$da7e4de0$db1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40C62E4D.6000803@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV59JpchhpDk0002d411@hotmail.com> <40C773E0.5060203@ix.netcom.com> <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C7AA88.8040609@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV60EXRbsdZK0002db30@hotmail.com>

The Twit Speaketh:


| Do not direct any of your comments to me. I am not going to read any
| postings at this site for 6 months.

God, I thought this was less than a one-sided conversation.  Glad to know
it's all about you.  (I know, I know, I'm as ego-inflated as a Macy's parade
balloon.)

 | At the moment, I am writing another Assassinated. Press because I have
| received only 2 death threats today. And I thought Ronnie High Colonic
| was so revered in certain circles.

Being from California, I must claim primacy on the idea of colonic
irrigation.  As for Reagan, well, he didn't sleep as much in Washington as
Senator Hayakawa.

| In six months, I'm going to search out your poetry and see if anybody
| has grown any hair on their balls. CP

Alopecia Areatus may strike anywhere, but I've never seen a case confined to
the scrotum.

Cordially,

C. E. Chaffin M.D.


| >
| >
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jun 10 07:17:25 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:17:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] if short stories get short shrift, what do poems get?
Message-ID: <11b.330d91f9.2df99d45@aol.com>


Ifrom the CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION. June 10, 2004. Online edition.
> _________________________________________________________________
> 
> MAGAZINES & JOURNALS
> 
> A glance at the spring issue of "Doublethink": Short stories get short 
> shrift
> 
> The short story, which used to be a mainstay of popular
> magazines, is now "confined to an elegant ghetto" of a handful
> of literary magazines and journals, and to the academic world,
> says Kelly Jane Torrance, an editor at "Brainwash," the
> journal's online sister publication.
> 
> Many of the most prominent writers of short fiction teach
> English and writing at colleges, and "it is a common complaint
> that university writers, while protected from starving in
> garrets, write for each other," she says.
> 
> Arguably it could be a good thing for short fiction that
> less-serious writers are discouraged from taking up the form.
> However, the lack of a significant commercial market for short
> stories, combined with the structure of graduate writing
> programs, has led to the perception that short fiction is
> primarily for beginning writers, she says.
> 
> "It is difficult to complete a novel in the course of earning a
> master-of-fine-arts degree and even harder to critique one in
> progress in workshops, so most students write short stories,"
> she says. "The rigors of academic and workshop training, more
> than anything else, may be why short fiction tends to be
> something of a young person's game."
> 
> The article, "Short of Glorious," is online at
> http://www.affdoublethink.com/archives/011943.php
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> Copyright (c) 2004 The Chronicle of Higher Education, Inc.
> 
> 

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jun 10 07:26:07 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:26:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <40C7968D.9010402@ix.netcom.com>
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost>

On 9 Jun 2004 at 19:00, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:
> ... Should poetry be more
> respectable? Less respectable? Is it just goddam right, baby bear?<

Respectable to what audience? Clearly the C.Parcelli audience's 
notion of "respectable" is very different than the D.Gioia audience's 
notion. One audience's respectable is another audience's outre or 
cliche -- not respectable either way. Isn't there a window of 
respectability for each audience, through which they can see the 
promised land of the right kind of poetry, and around which is just 
wall?

Marcus





From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 10 07:34:23 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:34:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Falling Horses
In-Reply-To: <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040610113423.54888.qmail@web40404.mail.yahoo.com>

The Falling Horses

Ronald Reagen Ronald Reagen
Nope is a word of only one syllable
Should I mock you or imitate the motion
of a parakeet, cackle like a crazed hyena
cry the cry of a wounded harpie
worple like a maddened fly?

Now you have passed and it has passed
Passed and passing still (into the West that is)
for that is where you came from
a geographical compass point meaning Shiloh
alcoholic falling horses and Grant
at Shiloh falling onto the falling horses.

The rotting hulks of Baltic submarines
That golf buggy chariot or yours
The sine, cosine and tangent, bizarre trig
of your fattened brainpan, now weighing no less
than 2 kilos no more nor less than 2
Although it is meek and very, very small.

It weighs more than the Collected Works
of Marx and Engels, sum of your Victorian gents
You came to chill like cherryade
Or lemon cola, the ice cubes in your G & T
The 2+2 of political science meant streams
Of diet coke and blood in the street.

But especially so in Grenada, a former British colony.
You intended to cleanse their streets
a gin and tonic fountain they would love
more, more than the former colonial offices
the ambassador's house and the strange tropical
flora and fauna and everywhere the falling horses

The deadened brainpan, the argument of weights
the scales are tilting and tilting still
everywhere the judgement is tending to adore you
at least you kept things relatively quiet
not too quiet but relatively so
in a relativistic universe that is not bad

not too good and not too bad.
you have made time for the librarians
and the historians and the teachers
to clutch again and again. the whiskied
General, johnny reb, empty bottles of stout,
Falling horses, trumpets, blows, odour of dung and
death.

Paul Murphy
www.theengine.net


	
		
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 10 15:14:30 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:14:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7 and standards
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040610191430.74150.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com>

yes, but don't good journals also pay their writers?
If an editor can't get a journal to pay for his or her
writing there is nothing objectionable about such
self-publication.
paul murphy
--- "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Call me a dinosaur, but traditionally (which might
> be an even worse choice
> than my earlier adjective, "respectable"),  most
> good literary journals do
> not first-publish the "serious" poetry of their
> editors.  Critical essays,
> yes, even light verse, perhaps, but not poetry.
> 
> Although this policy is not a perfect protection
> against literary nepotism,
> it does help me sleep better at night as an editor. 
> Unless objectivity and
> fairness make no difference to an editor.
> 
> "We knowers are not knowers of ourselves." 
> --Nietzsche, loose quote
> 
> Thazall,
> 
> CE
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
> 
> 
> > On 9 Jun 2004 at 19:00, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:
> > > ... Should poetry be more
> > > respectable? Less respectable? Is it just goddam
> right, baby bear?<
> >
> > Respectable to what audience? Clearly the
> C.Parcelli audience's
> > notion of "respectable" is very different than the
> D.Gioia audience's
> > notion. One audience's respectable is another
> audience's outre or
> > cliche -- not respectable either way. Isn't there
> a window of
> > respectability for each audience, through which
> they can see the
> > promised land of the right kind of poetry, and
> around which is just
> > wall?
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



	
		
__________________________________
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 10 16:38:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:38:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <016901c44f2a$d52f15b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

This was a killer to write.  I hope someone besides me likes it.  All
comments, negative or postive, welcome.

ROBERT LAX'S "RIVER"
I suppose you have to have been on the dump a long time to appreciate Robert
Lax's version of the the in his "river":

              river
              river
              river

              river
              river
              river


              river
              river
              river


              river
              river
              river




It would help also to have been immersed in haiku and more minimalist forms
of poetry for some significant part of your life, and to have read at least
a few other things by Lax (for instance, a text featuring just the
following, "the sea," "the stone," "stone" and "water," which he repeats
into something close to a final representation of . . . flux and stasis), as
I have. Whether it's possible for me to provide any useful idea of what it
is about this work that gave me a lasting Yow-moment as soon as I
encountered it is uncertain, but I'll try.

To begin with, we know because of its context that "river" is intended to be
a poem, but all it does is reveal that poem's subject. No metaphors, no
heightened language, no adjectives, even. Nothing but the one word, "river,"
which appears twelve times, once per line. It's hard to argue that Lax is
not shirking poetry's traditional duty, which is to make its subject matter
as sensually moving as possible. Indeed, it seems obstinately to refuse to
do that. So, where'd my Yow-moment come from?


Part of it, I think, came from something I experienced without identifying
it at the time: a feeling of viewing text-in-motion. The word, "river," was
moving down the middle of the page like--well, a river. No big deal . . .
except that I simultaneously was vividly aware of the text-as-poem, not
simply because of its context but because of its super- obvious shape as
four stanzas of three lines, each.


Meanwhile, as I read, the poem-as-river's rhythmic repetition of its one
word brought sensually home to me its ongoingness, its eternal ongoingness.
So did the pronunciation or "river," which perfectly represents a major
aspect of the word's meaning by ending where it begins. Thus, a reader
(sublingually pronouncing it) will likely hear the poem as, "river, river,
river; river, river, river, river river riveriveriveriver"--a drone that for
those most sensitive to it will continue beyond the cessation of text. . . .
Note, as well, the text's overtones of "evereverevereverever," which
includes hints of the word, "revere."


My conclusion (if only visceral until I later found words for it): the poem
put me in the presence of river-as-flow, so also in the presence of
poem-as-flow. Chanted river/poem-as-flow, I might add. And the flow was an
archetypal, eternal essence out of Nature, an absolute preceding all
meaning, a thing-in-itself . . . or form of "the the." Eternal
repetitiveness, unchangingness . . . Time, itself, and all it contains. Seen
and heard rivering down a page.


So, a poem seeming at a first glance emphatically "nothing"--a single
humdrum word repeated on an otherwise blank page grows into . . .
everything. Or can grow into everything for one open to it, and lucky enough
to be able to experience versions of the interactions with the poem I've
clumsily tried to describe all at once, viscerally, upon first exposure to
the poem.




--Bob Grumman




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 10 16:52:43 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:52:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7 and standards
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <017301c44f2c$e26260f0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Call me a dinosaur, but traditionally (which might be an even worse choice
> than my earlier adjective, "respectable"),  most good literary journals do
> not first-publish the "serious" poetry of their editors.  Critical essays,
> yes, even light verse, perhaps, but not poetry.
>
> Although this policy is not a perfect protection against literary
nepotism,
> it does help me sleep better at night as an editor.  Unless objectivity
and
> fairness make no difference to an editor.

Your readers will protect you against  harmful nepotism (and there's nothing
inately harmful about nepotism).  It seems absurd that an editor can publish
his own opinions but not his own poetry.  What's "unfair" about an editor's
publishing what he likes?  Why assume he can't be reasonably objective about
his own work?  Or know when he can't be?  Sure, if he can't publish his own
poetry anywhere else, he should be diffident about self-publishing it, but
not if he knows some other editors like his stuff.

All this etiquette is bunk, anyway, considering how cliquish most magazines
are in choosing work, how editors publish each others' work, etc.  It's a
disservice to a reader, too, if an editor has poems that seem perfectly to
fit a theme or the like, but he can't use them.  Of course, a traditional
magazine probably wouldn't devote an issue to a theme or school of poetry
for which there were not several hundred poets whose work would qualify. . .
.

--Bob G. (who just published but didn't edit an anthology he has two poems
in that he resisted having put in)


> "We knowers are not knowers of ourselves."  --Nietzsche, loose quote
>
> Thazall,
>
> CE
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
>
>
> > On 9 Jun 2004 at 19:00, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:
> > > ... Should poetry be more
> > > respectable? Less respectable? Is it just goddam right, baby bear?<
> >
> > Respectable to what audience? Clearly the C.Parcelli audience's
> > notion of "respectable" is very different than the D.Gioia audience's
> > notion. One audience's respectable is another audience's outre or
> > cliche -- not respectable either way. Isn't there a window of
> > respectability for each audience, through which they can see the
> > promised land of the right kind of poetry, and around which is just
> > wall?
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Jun 10 18:20:49 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:20:49 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "This Year's Angst "
Message-ID: <40C8DEC1.A3C3D595@earthlink.net>

This Year's Angst


Lulled to sleep by the description contest.  Not exactly true 
because thoughts continue to fall like sticks through the mind.  

Another fake:  Doing and wanting to watch the doing.
And a truth:  The slightest truths are taken as insult.

This year's angst is the absence of discernable subject.
Sentenced to 50 years at the loom, one weaves a runner 

that links all the stairs in one's country. To wake up, 
one offers ancestors whose calves flash in dogtrot.

Their hands cleave a seam, lilacs grow beneath petticoats.  
Two generations removed - forward that is, to now - cleverness

splashes rureadyforthesale.com on its page.  It is gagwriter 
rubric.  Does one hang onto an offer or the thing offered?

One floorboard rises in the slightest of arcs above a plane of oak
and changes the path from bedroom to kitchen for years.

Clandestine grandchildren, parolees on the hillsides,
all sorts of freight on the track that narrows and narrows.


- Jim


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 10 19:48:14 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:48:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Revised Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com> <016901c44f2a$d52f15b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <022b01c44f45$67fba7e0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I left something out, then--when putting it in--found a typo or two, and places I thought needed polishing. I wouldn't be surprised if the thing ends needing still more work.  In any event, here it is at this point:
ROBERT LAX'S "RIVER"

I suppose you have to have been on the dump a long time to appreciate Robert Lax's version of the the in his "river": 



              river
              river
              river

              river
              river
              river


              river
              river
              river


              river
              river
              river



     

It would help also to have been immersed in haiku and more minimalist forms of poetry for some significant part of your life, and to have read at least a few other things by Lax (for instance, a text featuring just the following, "the sea," "the stone," "stone" and "water," which he repeats into something close to a final representation of . . . flux and stasis), as I have. Whether it's possible for me to provide any useful idea of what it is about this work that gave me a lasting Yow-moment as soon as I encountered it is uncertain, but I'll try.

To begin with, we know because of its context that "river" is intended to be a poem, but all it does is reveal that poem's subject. No metaphors, no heightened language, no adjectives, even. Nothing but the one word, "river," which appears twelve times, once per line. It's hard to argue that Lax is not shirking poetry's traditional duty, which is to make its subject matter as sensually moving as possible. Indeed, it seems obstinately to refuse to do that. So, where'd my Yow-moment come from?


Part of it, I think, came from something I experienced without identifying it at the time: a feeling of viewing text-in-motion. The word, "river," was moving down the middle of the page like--well, a river. No big deal . . . except that I simultaneously was vividly aware of the text-as-poem, not simply because of its context but because of its super- obvious shape as four stanzas of three lines, each. Ergo, I was experiencing a river as a poem, not reading about it--seeing it.


Meanwhile, as I read, the poem's rhythmic repetition of its one word made me hear the river as a poem. At the same time, its one word told me, performed for me, the river-as-poem's ongoingness, its eternal ongoingness. So did the pronunciation of "river," which perfectly represents a major aspect of its meaning by ending where it begins. Because of this, a reader (sublingually pronouncing "river") will likely hear the poem as, "river, river, river; river, river, river, river river riveriveriveriver"--a drone that for those most sensitive to it will continue beyond the cessation of text. . . . Note, as well, the text's overtones of "evereverevereverever," which includes hints of the word, "revere."


My conclusion (if only visceral until I later found words for it): the poem put me in the presence of river-as-flow, so also in the presence of poem-as-flow. Chanted river/poem-as-flow, I might add. And the flow was an archetypal, eternal essence out of Nature, an absolute preceding all meaning, a thing-in-itself . . . or form of "the the." Eternal repetitiveness, unchangingness . . . Time, itself, and all it contains. Seen and heard rivering down a page.


So, a poem seeming at a first glance emphatically "nothing"--a single humdrum word repeated on an otherwise blank page grows into . . . everything. Or can grow into everything for one open to it, and lucky enough to be able to experience versions of the interactions with the poem I've clumsily tried to describe all at once, viscerally, upon first exposure to the poem.




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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 10 20:36:51 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:36:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Revised Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com> <016901c44f2a$d52f15b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <022b01c44f45$67fba7e0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV288ZMGLoU200008521@hotmail.com>

Good Job, Bob.

Had much the same experience, but as I'm writing about "Ash Wednesday" right now, I rather envy the simplicity this poem affords for rumination-- though I think "Ash Wednesday" probably Eliot's simplest major poem, excluding, perhaps, "Portrait of a Lady."

--CE


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:48 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Revised Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"


  I left something out, then--when putting it in--found a typo or two, and places I thought needed polishing. I wouldn't be surprised if the thing ends needing still more work.  In any event, here it is at this point:
  ROBERT LAX'S "RIVER" 

  I suppose you have to have been on the dump a long time to appreciate Robert Lax's version of the the in his "river": 

   

                river
                river
                river

                river
                river
                river


                river
                river
                river


                river
                river
                river



       

  It would help also to have been immersed in haiku and more minimalist forms of poetry for some significant part of your life, and to have read at least a few other things by Lax (for instance, a text featuring just the following, "the sea," "the stone," "stone" and "water," which he repeats into something close to a final representation of . . . flux and stasis), as I have. Whether it's possible for me to provide any useful idea of what it is about this work that gave me a lasting Yow-moment as soon as I encountered it is uncertain, but I'll try.

  To begin with, we know because of its context that "river" is intended to be a poem, but all it does is reveal that poem's subject. No metaphors, no heightened language, no adjectives, even. Nothing but the one word, "river," which appears twelve times, once per line. It's hard to argue that Lax is not shirking poetry's traditional duty, which is to make its subject matter as sensually moving as possible. Indeed, it seems obstinately to refuse to do that. So, where'd my Yow-moment come from?


  Part of it, I think, came from something I experienced without identifying it at the time: a feeling of viewing text-in-motion. The word, "river," was moving down the middle of the page like--well, a river. No big deal . . . except that I simultaneously was vividly aware of the text-as-poem, not simply because of its context but because of its super- obvious shape as four stanzas of three lines, each. Ergo, I was experiencing a river as a poem, not reading about it--seeing it.


  Meanwhile, as I read, the poem's rhythmic repetition of its one word made me hear the river as a poem. At the same time, its one word told me, performed for me, the river-as-poem's ongoingness, its eternal ongoingness. So did the pronunciation of "river," which perfectly represents a major aspect of its meaning by ending where it begins. Because of this, a reader (sublingually pronouncing "river") will likely hear the poem as, "river, river, river; river, river, river, river river riveriveriveriver"--a drone that for those most sensitive to it will continue beyond the cessation of text. . . . Note, as well, the text's overtones of "evereverevereverever," which includes hints of the word, "revere."


  My conclusion (if only visceral until I later found words for it): the poem put me in the presence of river-as-flow, so also in the presence of poem-as-flow. Chanted river/poem-as-flow, I might add. And the flow was an archetypal, eternal essence out of Nature, an absolute preceding all meaning, a thing-in-itself . . . or form of "the the." Eternal repetitiveness, unchangingness . . . Time, itself, and all it contains. Seen and heard rivering down a page.


  So, a poem seeming at a first glance emphatically "nothing"--a single humdrum word repeated on an otherwise blank page grows into . . . everything. Or can grow into everything for one open to it, and lucky enough to be able to experience versions of the interactions with the poem I've clumsily tried to describe all at once, viscerally, upon first exposure to the poem.




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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 10 20:40:11 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:40:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7 and standards
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com> <017301c44f2c$e26260f0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV560lmdzu5v00005762@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <028b01c44f4c$a9cdc480$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I believe in magazine as public trust but that to fulfill that trust you
publish the best stuff you can regardless of who wrote it.


> there are so many narcissistic e-zines out there claiming to
> be legitimate literary vehicles.

I'm going to answer you line of reasoning as I see it by just responding to
this: what makes a zine legitimate is its contents, not whether it's
narcissistic or not, or nepotistic.


> > All this etiquette is bunk, anyway, considering how cliquish most
> magazines
> > are in choosing work, how editors publish each others' work, etc.

> First you say editors can judge their own work, then you say they're
> cliquish, or inbred-- may I say nepotistic, if not by blood than
reciprocity
> (or friendship)?  You are never afraid to speak, Bob, which is a good
thing,
> but your thoughts often show poor editing for consistency.  And it's not
> etiquette; I think it's right.  If submissions are "open" then how can the
> unknown (even burstnorm) poet get a fair shake if the editors consider
> themselves?

Hey, I'm still answering.  Gah.  I should have said that editors can as well
judge their own work as that of others.  A good editor will give every one a
fair shake, including himself.  A bad editor will publish crap.  A corrupt
editor may accidentally publish something good.

> My last say on this subject, I hope.  I will not be moved.  Those who
object
> the most to this standard are most often those guilty of violating it.
Not
> that I have anyone on this list in mind (save the one I pricked with my
twit
> of a goad).
>
> Later,
>
> CE

I'll only note that you didn't answer many, if any, of my arguments.  But
it's not nearly as big a deal to me as all my arguing may make it seem.
Well, except that you seem to be saying that your standards are THE correct
ones.

--Bob G




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 11 07:25:38 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:25:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Revised Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com> <016901c44f2a$d52f15b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <022b01c44f45$67fba7e0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV288ZMGLoU200008521@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008101c44fa6$d447b090$22efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Good Job, Bob.

  Had much the same experience, but as I'm writing about "Ash Wednesday" right now, I rather envy the simplicity this poem affords for rumination-- though I think "Ash Wednesday" probably Eliot's simplest major poem, excluding, perhaps, "Portrait of a Lady."

  --CE

  Thanks, CE.  Yeah, it often occurs to me that I like minimalist poems so much because they're so . . . I wouldn't say "simple" but confined?  Whatever it is, though, it's hard to get a fix on.

  --Bob G.
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Jun 11 10:18:15 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:18:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Revised Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com> <016901c44f2a$d52f15b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <022b01c44f45$67fba7e0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00b601c44fbe$f0b39ce0$110c9942@Helen>

Printed out like this gives none of the hypnotic quality of Bob reading this - it's meditative (a river om)
h
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Revised Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"


  I left something out, then--when putting it in--found a typo or two, and places I thought needed polishing. I wouldn't be surprised if the thing ends needing still more work.  In any event, here it is at this point:
  ROBERT LAX'S "RIVER" 

  I suppose you have to have been on the dump a long time to appreciate Robert Lax's version of the the in his "river": 

   

                river
                river
                river

                river
                river
                river


                river
                river
                river


                river
                river
                river



       

  It would help also to have been immersed in haiku and more minimalist forms of poetry for some significant part of your life, and to have read at least a few other things by Lax (for instance, a text featuring just the following, "the sea," "the stone," "stone" and "water," which he repeats into something close to a final representation of . . . flux and stasis), as I have. Whether it's possible for me to provide any useful idea of what it is about this work that gave me a lasting Yow-moment as soon as I encountered it is uncertain, but I'll try.

  To begin with, we know because of its context that "river" is intended to be a poem, but all it does is reveal that poem's subject. No metaphors, no heightened language, no adjectives, even. Nothing but the one word, "river," which appears twelve times, once per line. It's hard to argue that Lax is not shirking poetry's traditional duty, which is to make its subject matter as sensually moving as possible. Indeed, it seems obstinately to refuse to do that. So, where'd my Yow-moment come from?


  Part of it, I think, came from something I experienced without identifying it at the time: a feeling of viewing text-in-motion. The word, "river," was moving down the middle of the page like--well, a river. No big deal . . . except that I simultaneously was vividly aware of the text-as-poem, not simply because of its context but because of its super- obvious shape as four stanzas of three lines, each. Ergo, I was experiencing a river as a poem, not reading about it--seeing it.


  Meanwhile, as I read, the poem's rhythmic repetition of its one word made me hear the river as a poem. At the same time, its one word told me, performed for me, the river-as-poem's ongoingness, its eternal ongoingness. So did the pronunciation of "river," which perfectly represents a major aspect of its meaning by ending where it begins. Because of this, a reader (sublingually pronouncing "river") will likely hear the poem as, "river, river, river; river, river, river, river river riveriveriveriver"--a drone that for those most sensitive to it will continue beyond the cessation of text. . . . Note, as well, the text's overtones of "evereverevereverever," which includes hints of the word, "revere."


  My conclusion (if only visceral until I later found words for it): the poem put me in the presence of river-as-flow, so also in the presence of poem-as-flow. Chanted river/poem-as-flow, I might add. And the flow was an archetypal, eternal essence out of Nature, an absolute preceding all meaning, a thing-in-itself . . . or form of "the the." Eternal repetitiveness, unchangingness . . . Time, itself, and all it contains. Seen and heard rivering down a page.


  So, a poem seeming at a first glance emphatically "nothing"--a single humdrum word repeated on an otherwise blank page grows into . . . everything. Or can grow into everything for one open to it, and lucky enough to be able to experience versions of the interactions with the poem I've clumsily tried to describe all at once, viscerally, upon first exposure to the poem.




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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 11 10:49:23 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:49:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Revised Appreciation of Robert Lax's "river"
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com> <016901c44f2a$d52f15b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <022b01c44f45$67fba7e0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b601c44fbe$f0b39ce0$110c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <019501c44fc3$4b653f00$22efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Printed out like this gives none of the hypnotic quality of Bob reading this - it's meditative (a river om)

h

Well, it's an attempt at literary criticism, not an attempt at a poem.  Nonetheless, I certainly hope your "none" is an exaggeration.

--Bob G. 
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Jun 11 14:37:42 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:37:42 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir
In-Reply-To: <200406091601.i59G13XE010811@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040611112536.02c75c10@incoming.verizon.net>

As a confessed Lakers fan wearing today my
Jackson Pollock tee-shirt -- but with no intent
to upset any opposing persuasion -- I come with
begging bowl in hand, seeking advice.

Here's the thing: I'm considering laying on a
new course next year in Poetry as Memoir,
thinking Sharon Olds, LIFE STUDIES, Plath/Hughes,
Sir Thomas Wyatt, but mainly wondering if anyone knows
of an anthology bent around such focus,
or other key-poet suggestions? (it goes without saying that
I'll include Bruce Andrews' "bananas are an example").

hopefully,

Barry
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Jun 11 14:42:53 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:42:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040611112536.02c75c10@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <002501c44fe3$ee9f6310$b8341c40@Emily>

Key poet:  Berryman.  The later poems of Archie Ammons.  Or any but the
very early poems of Ammons.  
 
Tony
 
 
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Jun 11 14:43:17 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:43:17 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040611112536.02c75c10@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <002a01c44fe3$ff7848a0$b8341c40@Emily>

Oh yeah..Go PISTONS!!
 
T.
 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Jun 11 16:30:08 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:30:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Ray Charles
Message-ID: <BCEF8080.9D2E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Hey, as long as we're evidently going to be putting Ronald Reagan on our
currency, why don't we make "What'd I Say" the national anthem at the same
time?

Here's one of mine from about 15 years back.



RAY CHARLES ON LATE NIGHT TV


That nonstop rhinestone grin
undimmed by the decades,
though the hair is frosty gray
and the face a bit grizzled--

he whips out the intro
to "What'd I Say," as
the latest Raeletts
sway against their tambourines,

and I nearly forget how many
thousands of nights
he's leaned into the mike
to growl "I want to know,"

how many car radios
have pulsed with his cries
in Michigan, in Tennessee,
"unhh" and "ohhh"--what Ray said.

Tell it, brother.  We're not
really listening.  We're
squirming across the back seat
in a hilarious tangle

of unbuckled belts,
bra straps, and frantic hips.
We're doing the backbeat,
we're wailing the blues

right into rock-and-rollville.
And Ray's still presiding,
with demon grin and mirrored shades,
like he sees it all.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Jun 11 16:35:07 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:35:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040611112536.02c75c10@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <00ef01c44ff3$957cd550$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Why not create your own?

Let's go Mets!


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barry Spacks 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 2:37 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir


  As a confessed Lakers fan wearing today my
  Jackson Pollock tee-shirt -- but with no intent
  to upset any opposing persuasion -- I come with
  begging bowl in hand, seeking advice.

  Here's the thing: I'm considering laying on a
  new course next year in Poetry as Memoir,
  thinking Sharon Olds, LIFE STUDIES, Plath/Hughes,
  Sir Thomas Wyatt, but mainly wondering if anyone knows
  of an anthology bent around such focus,
  or other key-poet suggestions? (it goes without saying that 
  I'll include Bruce Andrews' "bananas are an example").

  hopefully,

  Barry 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 11 17:29:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:29:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040611112536.02c75c10@incoming.verizon.net> <00ef01c44ff3$957cd550$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <02b701c44ffb$2aaddf00$22efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Here's the thing: I'm considering laying on a
new course next year in Poetry as Memoir,
thinking Sharon Olds, LIFE STUDIES, Plath/Hughes,
Sir Thomas Wyatt, but mainly wondering if anyone knows
of an anthology bent around such focus,


Are there any mainstream anthologies not (implicitly, at any rate) "bent around such a focus?"

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 11 20:18:45 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:18:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] WordTech Communications LLC to implement open submisisons
Message-ID: <129.43aca4e5.2dfba5e5@aol.com>

Date:    Wed, 9 Jun 2004 15:42:29 -0400
From:    Kevin Walzer <listadmin at WORDTECHCOMMUNICATIONS.COM>
Subject: WordTech Communications LLC to implement open submisisons

Dear Poets,

We are writing to let you know that WordTech Communications LLC is =
making
major changes to our submission process. Effective July 16, 2004, we are
discontinuing our contest structure and replacing it with open =
submissions
that require no reading fee. All chosen books will be published under a
royalty contract agreement. Our current schedule of deadlines and =
imprints
will remain in place.

For more information about this change, please see the announcement at =
our
website:

http://www.wordtechcommunications.com/contests-discontinued.html

Please contact us if you have questions. Thank you for your interest.

Regards,


Kevin Walzer, Ph.D.
Editor
WordTech Communications - A New Paradigm of Poetry
http://www.wordtechcommunications.com
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 11 20:25:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:25:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Common: Milosz
Message-ID: <115.33d7c241.2dfba772@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/10/2004 1:37:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:

> Cowboys love smoky old poolrooms and clear mountain mornings
> Little warm puppies and children and girls of the night....
> 
> 
Tad, I can almost hear Julie Andrews
singing "these are a few of my favorite things..."
Finnegan
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 11 20:45:40 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:45:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040611112536.02c75c10@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV48Vc4Iu1B60002fa20@hotmail.com>

Barry,

I've followed the Lakers religiously since they moved to LA where I grew up
and later practiced.

I've met Chick and Stu, Magic, been to parades... Saw Horry's famous shot at
Staples in 2002.  Had my heart broken by the Celtics in the 60s, got some
measure of redemption in the 80s when we beat them in Boston in '87.

Anyway, Phil Jackson is getting his pants coached off.

We need to become the Bad Boys.

What we got?  Beef and experience/savvy.

What they got?  Youth and quickness.

"No lay-ups." (in the finals-- Red Auerbach)

"No rebounds, no rings."  Pat Riley

We got to beat them up in the paint and hope that our shooting improves.

No other way.

Kathleen and I are rabid on game nights, takes the next day to recover.  All
commentary in Spanish, but they use Chick's English terms, swear, as well as
Spanish translations: "flotadora" -- floater "throws up a prayer"-- 
"fantasia"  and "leaping leana" verbatim.  Chick is to basketball announcing
what Shakespeare was to literature.  Didn't know he had entered the language
here!

Go, Lakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

p.s. Consider the Whitman/Williams/Ginsberg school as proto-confessional, ya
think?




----- Original Message ----- 
From: Barry Spacks
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 1:37 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] mascmoir, femmoir


As a confessed Lakers fan wearing today my
Jackson Pollock tee-shirt -- but with no intent
to upset any opposing persuasion -- I come with
begging bowl in hand, seeking advice.

Here's the thing: I'm considering laying on a
new course next year in Poetry as Memoir,
thinking Sharon Olds, LIFE STUDIES, Plath/Hughes,
Sir Thomas Wyatt, but mainly wondering if anyone knows
of an anthology bent around such focus,
or other key-poet suggestions? (it goes without saying that
I'll include Bruce Andrews' "bananas are an example").

hopefully,

Barry


From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Jun 12 10:29:26 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:29:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rustbelt Roethke Professional Writers Workshop
Message-ID: <002d01c45089$ac0ef6e0$4c089942@Helen>

I attended last summer and it was great to have peers
look at your stuff thoughtfully.  I took several "almost there" poems and
good readers helped me rescue them
from the compost. It also forces you out of your rut and gives you a new
look at what you do.  Try it, you'll like it.  A great cruise on Lake
Michigan on a yacht ended the week and the best margueritas I ever had.
Helen Ruggieri
unpaid commercial



> Dear Friends,
>
> Again this year, Saginaw Valley State University will be the setting
> for Rustbelt Roethke Professional Writers Workshop, a unique summer
> writing program where you can relax, meet friends, influence people,
> recharge your batteries.
>
> This is a peer workshop of writers with significant publications
> (poetry, fiction, creative non-fiction) featuring a comfortable,
> egalitarian atmosphere.  Mornings (Mon-Sat) are devoted to workshopping
> in groups of 4-6 peers. All participants are invited to give a public
> presentation in the afternoon (Mon-Fri) and will be featured on the
> evening public readings (Mon-Thur), one of which will take place at
> Theodore Roethke's family home in Saginaw. On Saturday we will host a
> literary festival, including other Michigan writers and open mic
> sessions, and a book fair. The cost is low and the ambiance is high.
> For full information, please go to http://www.svsu.edu/~kerman/Rustbelt
>
>
> If you have any questions (or something on the site doesn't seem to
> work) please contact kerman at svsu.edu.  There is a form on the website -
> if you are interested in coming, please fill it out and click "submit".
> Because time is getting short, please plan to send a deposit as soon as
> possible. Information about fees, refund dates, deadlines, etc. is
> included on the site. There is also a page of photos from last year.
>
> My apologies for using my own address in the "To:" slot - it's the only
> way to send this to multiple people without your having to scroll
> through several inches of email addresses
>
> Thanks, and I hope to see you in July!
>
> Judith B. Kerman
> Professor of English
> Saginaw Valley State Univ
>
>




From Thom424 at aol.com  Sat Jun 12 14:22:47 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:22:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] barry spacks & confessional poets course
Message-ID: <131.2f09cb53.2dfca3f7@aol.com>

hi barry,

a possible suggestion for a companion reader (to accompany whatever texts you 
ultimately choose for your course):   

          *after confession: poetry as autobiography*, ed. kate sontag & 
(new-poetry's very own)           
                david graham (graywolf press, 2001. pap. $17.95. 340 pp).

a hearty collection of essays by a variety of poets, including frank bidart, 
joseph bruchac, marilyn chin, billy collins, stephen dunn, annie finch, louise 
gluck, kimiko hahn, yusek komunyakaa, ted kooser, thylias moss, sharon olds, 
olicia ostricker, stanley plumly, adrienne rich, alan williamson.

from the introduction by sontag & graham: 

"More than forty years after the poets and the poetry first tagged 
'confessional' ignited controversey, American poetry continues to display a notable 
confessional strain?some would say exhaustively and exhaustedly so....*After 
Confession* addresses not only the legacy of confessional poetry but also the 
deeper concerns that have always underpinned such discussion. We asked ourselves: 
How do contemporary poets negotiate the often controversial historical, 
ethical, and critical considerations related to autobiographical poetry? What do 
today's poets have to say about the nature of truth-telling and authorial 
responsibility, and how do they reflect on their own places within the historical 
contect of the lyric'I' "?

perhaps when you've completed your syllabus for the course, you might share 
it with the list?well, if not the entire syllabus, perhaps, at least, the texts 
you decided upon.

i do confess (no pun intended!) to selfish motives: i, too, am shaping a 
similar course to teach to undergraduate & mfa graduate students 

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn 

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun 12 17:34:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:34:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Papers
Message-ID: <007801c450c5$1748e890$af737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

> From: "pierre lagayette" <pierre.lagayette at wanadoo.fr>
 > Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:19:20 +0200

UNIVERSIT? PARIS IV-SORBONNE
The Center for Western American and Asia/Pacific Studies
(Director: Pierre Lagayette)

invites you to participate in its next International Conference, to be held
at the Sorbonne
12 and 13 November 2004, on :
on :
Leisure and Liberty in North America

Leisure is commonly regarded as free time activity and somehow refers to our
way of exercising freedom, individually or collectively. Leisure was once
considered as a prerogative of aristocratic elites, but is now perceived in
a less restrictive and more democratic way, especially in North America
where it has become some sort of standard consumer good, easily and largely
accessible to the masses.
This conference intends first to redefine the boundaries of "leisure" within
American society (a pursuit that goes back to Max Weber and Thorstein
Veblen, among others) and investigate the impact of these borderlines on the
extension, supply and enjoyment of leisure.
The proliferation of modes and forms of leisure in the US - whether
dedicated spaces like fairgrounds, World Expos, theme parks or national
parks, or deliberate explorations of space as implied by most forms of
tourism - leads us to wonder how leisure connects with such essential values
as liberty and work, how in North America it matches the Aristotelian
definition which sees work as a mere agent of production for leisure time or
how Americans managed to meet their need for freedom and happiness through
leisure.
As social practice, leisure incorporates a strong desire for escape, which
itself implies the existence of a difficult or imperfect relation to living
conditions (especially in urban areas) or way of life. We might therefore
inquire about the therapeutic power of leisure.
We might also examine the institutional dimension of leisure, the assortment
of legal and judicial tools that shape entertainment and recreation in the
US, the various ways of organizing and managing leisure at all levels of
institutional responsibility, local, state and federal. Is there anything
like a "right of leisure" in America and how is it translated? As regards
access, what progress has been made that would open wider the "territory of
leisure" for the American people?
Worthy of interest are also the structures of leisure, not just the
facilities but the social policies which target the family, define and frame
free time, entertainment or collective celebrations. We may here focus on
holidays, fairs, festivals, sport venues, art shows, etc.
This social aspect of leisure cannot be severed from its moral aspect: we
may wonder to what extent leisure matches up with the traditional protestant
work ethics that underscores economic and social life in North America. Is
the freedom to be idle compatible with the ideology of success, the
philosophy of individual progress or even the "American Dream"?
On the contrary, should we submit to some sort of commitment to have fun ?
Is there a social morality of pleasure that would fit Baudrillard's "Fun
system", or what he calls "the duty of enjoyment"?
Leisure means profit: in the US it has now become a major economic activity
and materialized Ben Franklin's famous phrase, "American recreation is
business". The leisure market keeps on growing at a fast pace, much as the
leisure industry which controls it. We are challenged to study the impact of
this profit-making mass business ("Big Leisure") which thrives magnificently
these days. Has the creation of a "leisure society", of more "democratic"
forms of mass leisure, engendered a greater freedom for consumers?
Finally, we should redesign the outlines of an American model of leisure,
and wonder if it assumes a canonical shape or offers several variants,
according to place (regional models) or types of communities (urban/rural).
Also, what measure of innovation can this model propose? Is this American
model likely to be transplanted abroad? The financial results of Eurodisney,
for example, may come as a denial. This kind of misfortune leads us to
consider In the merchandized world of leisure the key to survival lies in a
good capacity for renewing the sources and agents of entertainment or
recreation (the astonishing growth of Las Vegas, of game and money leisure,
as well as the evolution of the shopping malls towards entertainment - what
is known as "retailtainment" -- prove it). the role of leisure in the
construction of a collective cultural identity and to call into question the
people's adherence or allegiance to a national American culture.


If you are interested in presenting a paper that addresses these or any
related topics, send a proposal of approximately 200 words and a provisional
title before July 15 to:


Pierre Lagayette pierre.lagayette at wanadoo.fr
or
Adrien Lherm adrienlherm at hotmail.com
or
Yves Figueiredo yves.figueiredo at paris4.sorbonne.fr


Further Queries about the conference may be addressed to:


Pierre Lagayette, Director of the Center, at :
pierre.lagayette at paris4.sorbonne.fr
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun 12 17:38:03 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:38:03 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] new publication(s)
Message-ID: <008301c450c5$8bbf3580$af737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

 >From: "Marieke Schilling" <m.schilling at rodopi.nl>
 >Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:59:06 +0200

Editions Rodopi BV is pleased to announce the following new publication(s)
in American Studies:
Uneasy Alliance: Twentieth-Century American Literature, Culture and
Biography.
Edited by Hans Bak.
Amsterdam/New York, NY 2004. 367 pp. (Costerus NS 150)
ISBN: 90-420-1611-6 ? 73,-/US-$ 91.-
http://www.rodopi.nl/senj.asp?BookId=cos+150
Uneasy Alliance illuminates the recent search in literary studies for a new
interface between textual and contextual readings. Written in tribute to
G.A.M. Janssens, the twenty-one essays in the volume exemplify a renewed
awareness of the paradoxical nature of literary texts both as works of
literary art and as documents embedded in and functioning within a writer's
life and culture. Together they offer fresh and often interdisciplinary
perspectives on twentieth-century American writers of more or less
established status (Henry James, Edna St. Vincent Millay, E.E. Cummings,
Vladimir Nabokov, Flannery O'Connor, Saul Bellow, Michael Ondaatje, Toni
Morrison and Sandra Cisneros) as well as on those who, for reasons of
fashion, politics, ideology, or gender, have been unduly neglected (Booth
Tarkington, Julia Peterkin, Robert Coates, Martha Gellhorn, Isabella
Gardner, Karl Shapiro, the young Jewish-American writers, Julia Alvarez, and
writers of popular crime and detective fiction). Exploring the fruitful
interactions and uneasy alliance between literature and ethics, film,
biography, gender studies, popular culture, avant-garde art, urban studies,
anthropology and multicultural studies, together these essays testify to the
ongoing pertinence of an approach to literature that is undogmatic,
sensitive and sophisticated and that seeks to do justice to the complex
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 13 12:46:27 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:46:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <b2.2cdf6485.2df136a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <028501c45165$fa461460$8cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Bob, the word ":river" is important to me. 
As it is to many, I'm sure. I grew up in
a quintessential river town, St. Louis,
so I'd almost say the word is archetypal
for me. But the poem itself doesn't really
do much for me. I can't think of much 
beyond a stutter of misheard Hericlitus, 
something about: "You can't step into 
the same river th-th-th-thrice." Tell me what 
attracts you so deeply about this poem. 
Finnegan 


Hokay, James, you've had several days now to read what I find so attractive about this poem.  Any comments?

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 13 13:02:53 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:02:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A New Mainstream Am. Poetry Encyclopedia
References: <143.2aba355e.2df0a479@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV20avMNfFiM00028eaa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <029701c45168$4625fd80$8cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

This came my way recently, and was posted at the Buffalo poetics site:


I and my co-editors are writing to invite you to 
contribute to The Greenwood Encyclopedia of American 
Poetry, a reference work covering American poetry from its beginnings to the present. The Encyclopedia will 
be the most thorough and inclusive work of its kind to 
date, including more than a thousand entries on poets, 
critics, poetic terms, and movements.

We invite you to consult www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~eoap, 
where the lists of entries are posted. To 
view the entries, click ?entries? at the website, and 
enter the password ?a2zed? (as in A-Z) at the prompt. 


I wonder what you mainstreamers make of its contents.  About 600 contemporary American poets are covered (by my estimate).  I found only one living, practicing visual poet among them, Richard Kostelanetz, and some 16 language poets whose names I recognized, and probably more among the 100 or so names of poets I either don't know at all or don't know well enough to know what kind of poems they make.  Ron Silliman is the only poet who posts at New-Poetry on whom there is an entry in it that I know of.  I find it to be a very standard stasguard production but am sure it will be touted as very up-to-date.

No, I'm not up in arms.  In fact, my boy Aram is there!  I find it sociologically interesting--an obvious product of the Buffalo Conspiracy (Bernstein, Perloff, et al) but compromising with the mainstream it is gradually merging with.

--Bob G. 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun 13 20:51:33 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:51:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?CROWD=20#4=A0?=
Message-ID: <ae.5a4414d0.2dfe5095@aol.com>

Subj:   CROWD #4?   
Date:   6/2/2004 11:43:01 AM Eastern Standard Time  
From:   aimee at crowdmagazine.com 
Sent from the Internet (Details)    
    

CROWD #4 features work by:

Rebecca Curtis * Timothy Donnelly * Peter Gizzi * Matthea Harvey * Anthony 
Hawley * Terrance Hayes * Steve Healey * Stefania Heim * Brian Henry * Sheila 
Heti * Lisa Lubasch * Mebdh McGuckian * Corey Mead * Travis Nichols * Ed Park * 
Graham Parks * Peter Richards * Elizabeth Robinson * Matthew Rohrer * Tomaz 
Salamun * Jef Scharf * Laurie Sheck * Craig Thompson * Elizabeth Young

Show Some Love:
Single Issue $10
One Year Subscription (2 issues) $18

http://www.crowdmagazine.com

or

Crowd
487 Union Street, 3rd Floor
Brooklyn, New York 11231


NOTE:
If you would like to be removed from this list, please reply with REMOVE 
inthe subject heading, and accept our apologies for the inconvenience. Thank you.

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun 13 22:41:39 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:41:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
Message-ID: <1cd.235ba1d5.2dfe6a63@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/13/2004 12:48:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Hokay, James, you've had several days now to read what I find so attractive 
> about this poem.  Any comments

Bob, I thought you mounted a nice appreciation (& a useful defense)
of the Lax poem. I think it was good that you pointed out that the poem
must be read in the context of Lax's other minimal work and within  
minimalism as an artist project. I also liked the part about
hearing "revere" when the poem was read aloud. It's not too
far a step to "reverie" from there. I'm not convinced
the poem is important or a little gem, but I think I do understand 
your attraction to it a bit more.

As it happens this weekend I was reading the Selected Poems of 
Joseph Ceravolo. (Why wasn't his name brought under the neglected
and surely oddball category?) Kenneth Koch contributes an enthusiastic
introduction to the poems. But it's a case of the critic propping up
the work, I think. Perhaps that's almost a definition of lit crit...to make
more of the work than is there. Koch is often stretching and 
straining to find import in poems that by turns defy all reason and
lack all regard for the reader. Here's some Koch re Ceravolo...

"      Morning oh May flower! oh
       May exist. Built.
       When will water stop
       Cooling? Built, falling. Reeds. I am surprised...

After the excited, ambiguous invocation (of May), a number of 
profound ideas are suggested with surprising simplicity and 
speed: the notion that the month of May has been "Built"; the 
wondering if water will keep its qualities; the realization that water 
also has been built, and built, probably, so as to be falling (even
falling things are built). After this there is a return to plain
physical presence, a fact ('reeds") and plain everyday 
consciousness ("I am surprised"). Ceravolo's work is full of
pleasures like these."
--
I can't see what Koch is finding so profound. There is certainly
some loopy pleasue in reading Ceravolo, but little more than that. 
Ceravolo can be simple to a fault (even simple-minded), in my opinion. 
And that "built" isn't helping. Koch's is engaging in a kind of creative
criticism which is "built" upon love alone. The poem and the critical case 
made for it are seldom speaking the same language. 

Here's a whole poem by Ceravolo that was also quoted by Koch; 
tellingly Koch only quotes it thru line 4, and the mere 5 lines that 
follow completely undermine whatever good one might see in 
its beginning...

       Drunken Winter
       
       Oak oak! like like
       it then
            cold some wild paddle
       so sky then;
       flea you say
       "geese geese" the boy
       June of winter
       of again
       Oak sky

[sic} I'm afraid to say there are no typos in the
above poem as I've typed it. That's it. Not much to work with.
Nothing of interest in the lay of language. No images 
of merit. Just some "flits of fancy," shall we say.
So we have two poems, two months mentioned; 
and both contain exclamation points. The emphasis was
evidently needed.

No for an unfair comparison: Also as it happens this weekend,
I picked up some new translations of Giuseppe Ungaretti (Selected 
Poems, translated by Andrew Frisardi, FSG, 2002). The comparison
is fair at least on a couple counts. Both poets favor short to 
middling-length 
lyric poetry; & both poets employ disjuncture in image and language flow:

       Friction

       With my wolf's hunger
       I haul my lamb's body
       down like a sail.

       I am like 
       the wretched boat
       and the lascivious sea.

Wow or whoa.."I haul my lamb's body/down like a sail." 
There's got to be some of The Odyssey epic inside this brief lyric. 
If Ungaretti has a failing it is that he does have moments
when he's a bit too fond of conventional romantic touches:
skylarks, hearts, moons...that kind of thing. Of course
he was born in the 1800s and was undoubtedly steeped 
in the oversweet poetry of the age...

       Last Quarter
       
       Moon.
       Feather of heaven,
       Such onionskin,
       Barren,
       Do you convey the murmur of souls laid bare?

       And what will they ever say to the pale one,
       Bats from the theater ruins,
       Those goats in dream,
       And among burnt foliage as in hanging smoke
       With all its crystal singing-out-its-throat
       A nightingale?
 
This poem manages to survive starting with the moon
and ending with a nightingale. But better yet, here Ungaretti
ends with the moon:

       Once upon a Time

       In Cappuccio Forest
       there's a slope 
       of green velvet
       like a lovely
       overstuffed chair

       My dozing off there
       alone
       in a far-off caf?
       with a faint light
       like this one
       this moon is shedding       

--
I want to fall asleep there.

Finnegan
  




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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 14 01:26:59 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:26:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <1cd.235ba1d5.2dfe6a63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV44stijenXE00031068@hotmail.com>

Dear James Finnegan,

As moderator you are a generous soul.

Thanks for these minimalist gems.

--CE


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 9:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem


  In a message dated 6/13/2004 12:48:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    Hokay, James, you've had several days now to read what I find so attractive about this poem.  Any comments


  Bob, I thought you mounted a nice appreciation (& a useful defense)
  of the Lax poem. I think it was good that you pointed out that the poem
  must be read in the context of Lax's other minimal work and within  
  minimalism as an artist project. I also liked the part about
  hearing "revere" when the poem was read aloud. It's not too
  far a step to "reverie" from there. I'm not convinced
  the poem is important or a little gem, but I think I do understand 
  your attraction to it a bit more.

  As it happens this weekend I was reading the Selected Poems of 
  Joseph Ceravolo. (Why wasn't his name brought under the neglected
  and surely oddball category?) Kenneth Koch contributes an enthusiastic
  introduction to the poems. But it's a case of the critic propping up
  the work, I think. Perhaps that's almost a definition of lit crit...to make
  more of the work than is there. Koch is often stretching and 
  straining to find import in poems that by turns defy all reason and
  lack all regard for the reader. Here's some Koch re Ceravolo...

  "      Morning oh May flower! oh
         May exist. Built.
         When will water stop
         Cooling? Built, falling. Reeds. I am surprised...

  After the excited, ambiguous invocation (of May), a number of 
  profound ideas are suggested with surprising simplicity and 
  speed: the notion that the month of May has been "Built"; the 
  wondering if water will keep its qualities; the realization that water 
  also has been built, and built, probably, so as to be falling (even
  falling things are built). After this there is a return to plain
  physical presence, a fact ('reeds") and plain everyday 
  consciousness ("I am surprised"). Ceravolo's work is full of
  pleasures like these."
  --
  I can't see what Koch is finding so profound. There is certainly
  some loopy pleasue in reading Ceravolo, but little more than that. 
  Ceravolo can be simple to a fault (even simple-minded), in my opinion. 
  And that "built" isn't helping. Koch's is engaging in a kind of creative
  criticism which is "built" upon love alone. The poem and the critical case 
  made for it are seldom speaking the same language. 

  Here's a whole poem by Ceravolo that was also quoted by Koch; 
  tellingly Koch only quotes it thru line 4, and the mere 5 lines that 
  follow completely undermine whatever good one might see in 
  its beginning...

         Drunken Winter
         
         Oak oak! like like
         it then
              cold some wild paddle
         so sky then;
         flea you say
         "geese geese" the boy
         June of winter
         of again
         Oak sky

  [sic} I'm afraid to say there are no typos in the
  above poem as I've typed it. That's it. Not much to work with.
  Nothing of interest in the lay of language. No images 
  of merit. Just some "flits of fancy," shall we say.
  So we have two poems, two months mentioned; 
  and both contain exclamation points. The emphasis was
  evidently needed.

  No for an unfair comparison: Also as it happens this weekend,
  I picked up some new translations of Giuseppe Ungaretti (Selected 
  Poems, translated by Andrew Frisardi, FSG, 2002). The comparison
  is fair at least on a couple counts. Both poets favor short to middling-length 
  lyric poetry; & both poets employ disjuncture in image and language flow:

         Friction

         With my wolf's hunger
         I haul my lamb's body
         down like a sail.

         I am like 
         the wretched boat
         and the lascivious sea.

  Wow or whoa.."I haul my lamb's body/down like a sail." 
  There's got to be some of The Odyssey epic inside this brief lyric. 
  If Ungaretti has a failing it is that he does have moments
  when he's a bit too fond of conventional romantic touches:
  skylarks, hearts, moons...that kind of thing. Of course
  he was born in the 1800s and was undoubtedly steeped 
  in the oversweet poetry of the age...

         Last Quarter
         
         Moon.
         Feather of heaven,
         Such onionskin,
         Barren,
         Do you convey the murmur of souls laid bare?

         And what will they ever say to the pale one,
         Bats from the theater ruins,
         Those goats in dream,
         And among burnt foliage as in hanging smoke
         With all its crystal singing-out-its-throat
         A nightingale?

  This poem manages to survive starting with the moon
  and ending with a nightingale. But better yet, here Ungaretti
  ends with the moon:

         Once upon a Time

         In Cappuccio Forest
         there's a slope 
         of green velvet
         like a lovely
         overstuffed chair

         My dozing off there
         alone
         in a far-off caf?
         with a faint light
         like this one
         this moon is shedding       

  --
  I want to fall asleep there.

  Finnegan
    




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From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 07:10:39 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:10:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000501c45200$3d304df0$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

"Revolutionary" poetry -
from Roque Dalton, Ernesto Cardenal & Jack Hirschman
to Lorenzo Thomas' Dancing on Main Street

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar
(June Croon edition)

Ron Silliman: 
Forthcoming readings & talks
(Boston, Seattle, Lawrence, SF, Philly & DC)

How does an ear work in poetry?

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 14 07:57:49 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:57:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Oddball Poets: robert lax poem
References: <1cd.235ba1d5.2dfe6a63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012401c45206$d3462ed0$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thanks for the comments on my defense of the Lax poem, James--and for bringing us Ceravolo.  He got into the encyclopedia I posted about yesterday, so is not all that neglected.  I think you undervalue the poems you posted of his but am not sure.  WIll think about it.  The other poet's work is interesting but nothing at all like Ceravolo's--like a representational poet compared with an impressionist.

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jun 14 09:23:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:23:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ceravolo
Message-ID: <1e4.22c6fac4.2dff00ef@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/14/2004 7:58:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> The other poet's work is interesting but nothing at all like C
> eravolo's--like a representational poet compared with an impressionist.

Ungaretti was a true modernist in sensibility and style. 
Of course his poetry pre-dates Ceravolo by over a half-century. 
Ceravolo wasn't always way-out-there in his poetry. 
Here's a poem by Ceravolo that I think could have appeared 
in either book of poems:

       Happiness In The Trees

       O height dispersed and head
       in sometimes joining 
       these sleeps. O primative touch
       between fingers and dawn
       on the back.

       You are not more 
       simple than a cedar tree
       whose children change
       the interesting earth
       and promise to shake her
       before the wind blows
                away from you
       in the velocity of rest.

See also Ceravolo's poems like "Note St. Francis", 
"Cross Fire", "Contrast"...I think many of his later poems 
are more conventionally readable, with fewer syntactic oddities,
and his surrealism seems less accidental (unintentional)
and more in service of the poem.  It's interesting to 
note that Ceravolo was a hydraulic engineer.
A man of two minds, obviously, to be able to write
such wild and un(slide)ruly lines as these....

       Grass

       What good is it comprising myself
       softly as the bemused colored fish?
       Do I think I'm the beautiful pants?
       What a desolate street!
       Why are the swamp weeds
       tickling me
       How could I be killed
       if I'm the duck who wipes away
       the dark holes made
       by bullets as I continually displace
       energy, pulling through snowing clouds?

By the way, the book I'm taking these poems from
is "The Green Lake Is Awake, Selected Poems
by Joseph Ceravolo" (Coffee House Press, 1994), 
and this collection has no less than 6 editors: 
Larry Fagin, Kenneth Koch, Charles North, 
Ron Padgett, David Shapiro & Paul Violi...
a NY School show of force if ever I seen one.
Finnegan              
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jun 14 10:14:21 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:14:21 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ceravolo
References: <1e4.22c6fac4.2dff00ef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <031501c45219$e3ed0d40$4a1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A lovely Ceravolo,

Ungaretti is one of the main Italian poets, the one you study at high school for your final exams. I never particularly liked him exception made for some poems like the following (but I should perhaps get a little more serious with him - had I only the time):

Mattina 
Santa Maria La Longa il 26 gennaio 1917 
 
M'illumino 
d'immenso. 

Morning

I lighten
of immensity.

(I have to use the noun otherwise in English it would sound awkward, even in Italian it sort of is, anyhow here is the literal translation:
I lighten
of immense.)

Soldati 
Bosco di Courton luglio 1918 
 
Si sta come 
d'autunno 
sugli alberi 
le foglie. 

Soldiers

We are as
in autumn
on the trees
the leaves.

(Leaves 
in fall
we are
on trees

that is how I might put it with some stylistic freedom).
Here a link with a couple more from which I pasted the above: http://www.club.it/autori/grandi/giuseppe.ungaretti/poesie.html
I just picked up a book by Alberto Savinio, the brother of DE Chirico, the painter, no one has ever read anything by him? Prose, yes, but of the highest quality.

Take care, Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 3:23 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ceravolo


  In a message dated 6/14/2004 7:58:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    The other poet's work is interesting but nothing at all like Ceravolo's--like a representational poet compared with an impressionist.


  Ungaretti was a true modernist in sensibility and style. 
  Of course his poetry pre-dates Ceravolo by over a half-century. 
  Ceravolo wasn't always way-out-there in his poetry. 
  Here's a poem by Ceravolo that I think could have appeared 
  in either book of poems:

         Happiness In The Trees

         O height dispersed and head
         in sometimes joining 
         these sleeps. O primative touch
         between fingers and dawn
         on the back.

         You are not more 
         simple than a cedar tree
         whose children change
         the interesting earth
         and promise to shake her
         before the wind blows
               away from you
         in the velocity of rest.

  See also Ceravolo's poems like "Note St. Francis", 
  "Cross Fire", "Contrast"...I think many of his later poems 
  are more conventionally readable, with fewer syntactic oddities,
  and his surrealism seems less accidental (unintentional)
  and more in service of the poem.  It's interesting to 
  note that Ceravolo was a hydraulic engineer.
  A man of two minds, obviously, to be able to write
  such wild and un(slide)ruly lines as these....

         Grass

         What good is it comprising myself
         softly as the bemused colored fish?
         Do I think I'm the beautiful pants?
         What a desolate street!
         Why are the swamp weeds
         tickling me
         How could I be killed
         if I'm the duck who wipes away
         the dark holes made
         by bullets as I continually displace
         energy, pulling through snowing clouds?

  By the way, the book I'm taking these poems from
  is "The Green Lake Is Awake, Selected Poems
  by Joseph Ceravolo" (Coffee House Press, 1994), 
  and this collection has no less than 6 editors: 
  Larry Fagin, Kenneth Koch, Charles North, 
  Ron Padgett, David Shapiro & Paul Violi...
  a NY School show of force if ever I seen one.
  Finnegan              
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jun 14 12:22:52 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:22:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Kids On The Block (UK & Ireland)
Message-ID: <115.33ef961c.2dff2adc@aol.com>

They're Britain's best new poets, chosen by a panel of judges for the verve 
of their verse. Here Simon Armitage, a former carrier of the flame, hails the 
next generation 

http://books.guardian.co.uk/nextgenerationpoets/0,14641,1231558,00.html

http://books.guardian.co.uk/nextgenerationpoets/story/0,14641,1231744,00.html
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Jun 14 12:52:00 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:52:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ceravolo
References: <1e4.22c6fac4.2dff00ef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012c01c4522f$e990fbb0$d6099942@Helen>

Has anyone read Ungaretti translations in a new release (within the lst two months or so)


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:23 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ceravolo


  In a message dated 6/14/2004 7:58:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    The other poet's work is interesting but nothing at all like Ceravolo's--like a representational poet compared with an impressionist.


  Ungaretti was a true modernist in sensibility and style. 
  Of course his poetry pre-dates Ceravolo by over a half-century. 
  Ceravolo wasn't always way-out-there in his poetry. 
  Here's a poem by Ceravolo that I think could have appeared 
  in either book of poems:

         Happiness In The Trees

         O height dispersed and head
         in sometimes joining 
         these sleeps. O primative touch
         between fingers and dawn
         on the back.

         You are not more 
         simple than a cedar tree
         whose children change
         the interesting earth
         and promise to shake her
         before the wind blows
               away from you
         in the velocity of rest.

  See also Ceravolo's poems like "Note St. Francis", 
  "Cross Fire", "Contrast"...I think many of his later poems 
  are more conventionally readable, with fewer syntactic oddities,
  and his surrealism seems less accidental (unintentional)
  and more in service of the poem.  It's interesting to 
  note that Ceravolo was a hydraulic engineer.
  A man of two minds, obviously, to be able to write
  such wild and un(slide)ruly lines as these....

         Grass

         What good is it comprising myself
         softly as the bemused colored fish?
         Do I think I'm the beautiful pants?
         What a desolate street!
         Why are the swamp weeds
         tickling me
         How could I be killed
         if I'm the duck who wipes away
         the dark holes made
         by bullets as I continually displace
         energy, pulling through snowing clouds?

  By the way, the book I'm taking these poems from
  is "The Green Lake Is Awake, Selected Poems
  by Joseph Ceravolo" (Coffee House Press, 1994), 
  and this collection has no less than 6 editors: 
  Larry Fagin, Kenneth Koch, Charles North, 
  Ron Padgett, David Shapiro & Paul Violi...
  a NY School show of force if ever I seen one.
  Finnegan              
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon Jun 14 13:08:25 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:08:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Kids On The Block (UK & Ireland)...and Silliman's blog post
Message-ID: <3e.40385adf.2dff3589@aol.com>

from ron silliman's blog for Tuesday, June 08, 2004:     

"Self-parody is everywhere this week.

The worst collection of poetry I have ever read can be found here [link to 
Armitage's essay/review] in. Complete with this justification for its existence 
by Simon Armitage. I?ve met Simon Armitage, even read with the man, so I can 
confirm that they do let him out of the house. I cannot imagine what might 
excuse this laughably bad gathering of imitation verse. There does seem to be an 
unwritten rule that one must be a clone of some previous form of conservative 
British poetry, only worse. Much worse."

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 14 13:27:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:27:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Kids On The Block (UK & Ireland)
References: <115.33ef961c.2dff2adc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01cc01c45234$e6023d60$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

They're Britain's best new poets, chosen by a panel of judges for the verve of their verse. Here Simon Armitage, a former carrier of the flame, hails the next generation 


http://books.guardian.co.uk/nextgenerationpoets/0,14641,1231558,00.html

http://books.guardian.co.uk/nextgenerationpoets/story/0,14641,1231744,00.html

A sight to cheer the most jaundiced stasguard: not a flicker of so much as a post-fifties outlook, much less technique.  The Iowa plainlyric seems to have conquered Britain--unless this list, and the prizes listed, are part of a conspiracy to make it seem that way.  (But it isn't--I'm in touch with several British poets born later than 1970 who are doing other kinds of poems than plainlyrics--and one of the poets in the group of best new Britich poets does seem to be more a minimalist than plainlyric poet.)

--Bob G.

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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Jun 14 13:54:37 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:54:37 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] help, what a concept!
In-Reply-To: <200406140511.i5E5B3XE011542@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040614105014.00bbc128@incoming.verizon.net>


>thanks to all who sent, list and back-channel, crucial
info and suggestions for my 2005 Poems as Memoir
course -- much appreciated.

Barry



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 14 13:56:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:56:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Kids On The Block (UK & Ireland)
References: <115.33ef961c.2dff2adc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01df01c45238$f56e28a0$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I note that the one thing that bothered the judge whose report on the poets James has a link to was that not enough black and asian poets competed for the prize.  You know, I may be more self-deluded and biased in favor of my kind of poetry by far than anybody who posts to New-Poetry except Carlo but I do swear that if I somehow became judge of a contest to pick the best new poets of my country and the twenty winners all composed visual poetry, I would be dismayed.  Okay, some of those in this group used rhyme; I forgot about that.  So maybe only fifteen are Iowa plainlyrickers, one a minimalist plainlyricker, and four some kind of songmode (or neoformalist) poet.  That's not variety, folks.  It'd be like fifteen conventional visual poets, four concrete poets (a concrete poet is a kind of classical visual poet who adheres to more rules than other visual poets, like not using anything but standard typography in his work) and one visiomathematical poet.  

I think probably half the best living American poets are visual poets, but I understand that since I'm a visual poet, I may well be prejudiced, so if an anthology of "best American poetry" was 20% devoted to good visual poetry, and 20% to good language poetry, and no more than 40% devoted to good Iowa plainlyrics, I would not complain.  If I were allowed to edit such an anthology, it would probably be more than 20% visual poetry--but it would be at least 60% non-visual poetry.

--Bob G.



--Bob G.
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Mon Jun 14 14:32:45 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:32:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ceravolo
In-Reply-To: <1cd.235ba1d5.2dfe6a63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c4523e$03727820$48341c40@Emily>

James,
 
I'm not inclined to mount a vigorous defense of Ceravolo right now, but
I must say that some of his work is immensely appealing to me,
particularly the earlier stuff.  The later, poems, which you find more
conventional, I also find more conventional, and a bit sappy/boring.
 
For me, Ceravolo's "loopiness" re-energizes the love lyric-the
sentiments he expresses are almost shockingly conventional. His form and
syntax, however, allow us to experience love, wonder, joy for the
seasons, etc. anew.  In this respect (and in his subject matter) he
reminds me a lot of cummings.  A minor, poet, maybe, but certainly worth
the sort of attention that Koch pays him in his intro.
 
As for him having little regard for his reader, I think that's a
response conditioned by certain new critical assumptions about how and
what poems are supposed to do; how they're supposed to work, and so
forth.   I used to teach an intro to poetry workshop in which I always
included a few Ceravolo poems.  When I first did this, I expected the
students to hate Ceravolo, to find the work inaccessible. Instead, the
opposite occurred-they loved him!  They found him tremendously fun, and
his non-logic "made sense" to them in really interesting ways.   They
hated Ashbery-no surprise.
 
Tony
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 14 14:45:04 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:45:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Kids On The Block (UK & Ireland)...and Silliman's blog post
References: <3e.40385adf.2dff3589@aol.com>
Message-ID: <020001c45243$e83ec210$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

from ron silliman's blog for Tuesday, June 08, 2004:    

"Self-parody is everywhere this week.

The worst collection of poetry I have ever read can be found here [link to Armitage's essay/review] in. Complete with this justification for its existence by Simon Armitage. I?ve met Simon Armitage, even read with the man, so I can confirm that they do let him out of the house. I cannot imagine what might excuse this laughably bad gathering of imitation verse. There does seem to be an unwritten rule that one must be a clone of some previous form of conservative British poetry, only worse. Much worse."

Haw, I wouldn't say it was the worst or close to the worst collection of poetry I've ever read, but the first two lines of the first poet's poem made me groan to myself, and the second poet's early lines about his mother "before she was his mother" made me groan out loud, something I hardly ever do.

--Bob G.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jun 14 08:39:39 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:39:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <40C7968D.9010402@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <BCF306BB.68B9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 6/9/04 6:00 PM, "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard.

Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have exactly
one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace the
similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit approximately
five times in the last ten years.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 14 15:58:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:58:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <BCF306BB.68B9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <024f01c4524a$09de5600$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have exactly
> one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace the
> similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit approximately
> five times in the last ten years.
> 
> Paul Lake

Aha!  I have no suits!  I do have several sports jackets, though.

--Bob G.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Jun 14 16:24:19 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:24:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] He Cannot Look Out Far
Message-ID: <BCF373A3.9E5E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Takes a certain nerve to climb into the ring with Mr. Robert Frost, as Mr.
Hemingway might put it. To my ears following lyric pays homage to "Neither
Out Far Nor In Deep" nearly to the point of (intentional?) parody.



The Quicksand Builders

The quicksand builders built
against the Folly of All.
They built from ancient custom.
They built for the good of the Wall.

As fast as they built, it sank,
and as fast as it sank, they built.
They felt no loss or sorrow,
no residue of guilt.

As long as they stayed on the job,
there was hope that the job would go.
The common people knelt
and prayed to the gods below.

The builders knew no gods
could save like a hard bed of silt,
and as fast as they built, it sank,
and as fast as it sank, they built.

William Logan
Macbeth in Venice
Penguin Books
-------------------

Wonder what the critic William Logan might say about this lyric if someone
else had penned it?



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jun 14 16:37:04 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:37:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
Message-ID: <144.2be7c7bd.2dff6670@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/14/2004 3:59:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have exactly
> one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace the
> similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit approximately
> five times in the last ten years.
> 
> Paul Lake

Aha!  I have no suits!  I do have several sports jackets, though.
Bob, funny, I was visualizing you in something like a 
Phantom of the Opera get-up, a full-length black velvet cloak, 
wide-brimmed fedora pulled down over the eyes. The stasguards 
shining floodlights into the ropes and gantries high up in the theatre,
shouting "There he is...Get him!"
Finnegan
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jun 14 17:05:24 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:05:24 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <144.2be7c7bd.2dff6670@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004701c45253$50468aa0$75607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Don't forget that the opera requires he should fly and he is stiffly pulled up and let to heavily swing all over the audience 
still shouting: "..."
Thanks Bob, I needed to laugh, 
next one you are allowed a couple of jokes on me,
Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 10:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7


  In a message dated 6/14/2004 3:59:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
    Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have exactly
    > one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace the
    > similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit approximately
    > five times in the last ten years.
    > 
    > Paul Lake

    Aha!  I have no suits!  I do have several sports jackets, though.
  Bob, funny, I was visualizing you in something like a 
  Phantom of the Opera get-up, a full-length black velvet cloak, 
  wide-brimmed fedora pulled down over the eyes. The stasguards 
  shining floodlights into the ropes and gantries high up in the theatre,
  shouting "There he is...Get him!"
  Finnegan
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From listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com  Mon Jun 14 16:34:53 2004
From: listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:34:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New WordTech poetry titles: Dooley, Harrison, Carbo, & more
Message-ID: <BCF3842D.1D6%listadmin@wordtechcommunications.com>

WordTech Communications LLC has an exciting number of new poetry titles out.
Order online at the links provided with each book or send a check (add $5
for shipping and handling, payable to WordTech Communcications) to PO Box
541106, Cincinnati, OH 45254-1106.

---

THE ZEN GARDEN by David Dooley (co-winner of the Yellowglen Prize)

The polyphony of?voices in David Dooley's THE ZEN GARDEN, his first
collection in nearly a decade,?demonstrates the touch of a masterful
narrative poet working at the height of his powers. Dooley's poems, often
resembling short stories more than lyrics, capture scenes and characters
with nuanced skill. Dooley's work is nearly unique in contemporary American
poetry.


David Dooley is the author of two books from Story Line Press, THE VOLCANO
INSIDE (winner of the initial Nicholas Roerich Prize) and THE REVENGE BY
LOVE.? A native of Tennessee, he currently resides in San Diego.

"David Dooley's accomplishment...bespeaks the confidence of a magician who
gives away the secret even as he performs the trick, certain we will be
dazzled anyway."--Allen Hoey

ISBN 1932339248, 124 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.wordtechweb.com/dooley.html

---

STEREOPTICON by Pamela Harrison

STEREOPTICON is Pamela Harrison's first full-length collection. The cool
elegance of her poems does not signify a detatchment from their subjects but
instead a cold, probing eye into their deep interiors. As with the
stereopticon of her book's title, no dimension of her poetic subjects
escapes Harrison's intent gaze.

Pamela Harrison was named the PEN Northern New England Discovery Poet for
2002. Her work has appeared in a number of journals, including POETRY,
SOUTHERN POETRY REVIEW, BELOIT POETRY JOURNAL, and elsewhere.

"On the cards slipped into the old stereopticons were two separate images
that were supposed to merge as you adjusted your eyes. Pamela Harrison
infuses this metaphorical idea with the unique wisdom of her experiences in
her rich collection of poems, Stereopticon. Stanza by stanza she shows us
how each moment is alive with the past and the present, the cloaked and the
revealed. The whole book shines with this blended magic, each poem worldly,
yet fresh."?-Molly Peacock

ISBN 193233923x, 92 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.davidrobertbooks.com/harrison.html

-----

THE FERTILE CRESCENT

THE FERTILE CRESCENT, winner of the 2003 Lyre Prize, is John Repp's second
full-length collection of poems. Its wry depictions of past and current
experience, tinged both with the ache of regret and the joy of fulfilment,
create a distinctive world of human connection.

"John Repp's consciousness can seek out the most shabby and plastic of our
21st-century American details (where the month of June 'unwinds?/with all
the happiness of management/creativity seminars') and can still report back
to us through Zen-eyes that see how everything, from 'golf club [to] steam
from a peach pie cooling,' is 'a petal/of the lotus.' And if 'the ward stank
of piss and shit and state warehouse soap,' there's still a tender reverence
for 'the beauty/all about me, the beauty/in every syllable.' What a
comprehensive collection of poems, heartfelt and smart about our human
confusions!"?-Albert Goldbarth

A widely published poet, fiction writer, and essayist, John Repp is the
author of Thirst Like This (University of Missouri Press, 1990), which won
the Devins Award in Poetry, and four limited-edition chapbooks. Recipient of
a National Endowment for the Arts Creative Writing Fellowship and two
Residency Fellowships at Yaddo, he teaches writing and literature at
Edinboro University of Pennsylvania, works in the Arts-in-Education Program
of the Pennsylvania Council for the Arts, and lives in Erie with his wife,
Katherine Knupp, and their son, Dylan.

ISBN 193233906x, 134 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.cherry-grove.com/repp.html

-----

ANDALUSIAN DAWN by Nick Carb?

ANDALUSIAN DAWN, Nick Carb?'s third full-length poetry collection, is a
lush, sensual collection of lyrics on interior and exterior landscapes. Many
of the poems are drawn from the geographic and cultural backdrop of Spain,
where the poet spent time on a writing residency; others are drawn from the
more elusive well of history, biography, and literature itself. Andualusian
Dawn is at once Nick Carb?'s most ambitious collection and his most
intimate, and establishes him as a major figure of his generation.


"In ANDALUSIAN DAWN, Nick Carb? creates a new, sweet language. This
collection hums with tenderness, revelry, and pays special tribute to the
importance of memory. Carb? shows his extraordinary range with this, his
newest collection, that will make you want to visit Andalusia and reimagine
the geography of your heart's home." --Crystal Williams

Nick Carb? is the author of EL GRUPO MCDONALD'S (1995) and SECRET ASIAN MAN
(2000), which won the Asian American Literary Award. He has edited two
anthologies of PHILIPPINE LITERATURE: RETURNING A BORROWED TONGUE  (1996)
and BABAYLAN (2000). He also edited an anthology,  Sweet Jesus (2002), with
Denise Duhamel. Among his awards are grants in poetry from the NEA and NYFA
(1999), and residencies from Fundacion Valparaiso (Spain), Le Chateau de
Lavigny (Switzerland), the MacDowell Colony, and Yaddo.

ISBN 1932339442, 80 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.cherry-grove.com/carbo.html

----

Also available: A reissue of SECRET ASIAN MAN by Nick Carb?

SECRET?ASIAN?MAN is a hilarious and poignant look at the immigrant
experience. Ang Tunay na Lalaki (Tagalog for "The Real Man") is the Filipino
Marlboro Man, a macho and bare-chested endorser of gin. But when he finds
himself in New York City and auditioning as a bit actor, disillusionment
quickly sets in: he realizes he, an Asian man, will never be a sex symbol in
America. Fortunately for him, adventure ensues.

"I'm absolutely beguiled by this robust postmodern superfantasy, this
shockingly trangressive anti-colonial yarn of sex, the city, and
human-hearted Everyman, Ang Tunay na Lalaki, Secret Asian in New York who
doesn't miss an American trick. Carb? is a genius and a con-artist, a
truthsayer and a sorcerer, a mensch and a perve-?or is he? Who wrote this
book, anyway? Strap yourself in. Inhale these poems." -?Maureen Seaton,

IBSN 1932339639, 100 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.cherry-grove.com/carbo-asian.html

----

THE LOGIC OF WINGS by Vanessa Haley

THE LOGIC OF WINGS, Vanessa Haley's first collection of poems, sculpts
memory into music through its careful, richly textured lines. Haley takes
her time in setting each scene and unfolding her lyric narratives, and the
result is poetry of unusual subtlety and cumulative power.


Vanessa Haley has been a fellow at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts
in Sweet Briar and was the first recipient of the John Haines Award for
Poetry in 2001. Her poems have appeared in magazines and anthologies,
including POETRY, THE GETTYSBURG REVIEW, KARAMU, THE ALASKA QUARTERLY
REVIEW, THE HAMPDEN-SYDNEY REVIEW, READING POEMS: AN ANTHOLOGY OF POETRY
(Random House), and POETRY FROM SOJOURNER: A FEMINIST ANTHOLOGY (Illinois).
She lives in Wilmington, Delaware, where she is a psychotherapist. Prior to
this, she was an associate professor of English at Mary Washington College
in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

"Haley welcomes the hope that accompanies death's inevitable pull 'toward an
abstraction called light.' This is an authentic and courageous voice-?a
welcome addition to the stage of poetry."?-Carolyn Kreiter-Foronda

ISBN 1932339086, 92 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.cherry-grove.com/haley.html

----

INTERMISSA, VENUS by Nicole Pekarske

The elegant poems of Nicole Pekarske's first collection INTERMISSA, VENUS
pierce the heart of their subjects with visual precision and haunting,
understated music. The rich scenes of these poems unfold greater depths in
the reader's mind long after the page is turned.

Nicole Pekarske has studied and taught in Maryland, Virginia, Missouri, and
London, and has published poems in such journals as?GEORGIA REVIEW,
GETTYSBURG REVIEW and RUE BELLA (UK). This is her first book-length
collection. 

"What a delight to come across a first book so accomplished and so varied,
so willing to take on both formal concerns?(in the crown of sonnets), and
dramatic personae (in the leper colony!), a book willing to treat the
vagaries of the vegetable world and the travails of the individual psyche
with the same acute and unflinching, analytic tools. Nicole Pekarske's work
is informed by the Romantic poets, Keats most certainly, but also by the
subversive wit of poets like cummings and O'Hara, and this unlikely marriage
yields a powerful and unexpected pleasure."--Lynne McMahon


IBSN 1932339116, 92 pages, $16.00

Order online or at http://www.cherry-grove.com/pekarske.html

---

DEENEWOOD, A SEQUENCE by Arlene Swift Jones, winner of the 2003 Tales Poetry
Prize

In this taut multi-generational verse novel spoken in the voices of
different family members, Arlene Swift Jones captures the tribulations and
joys of lives rooted in a single place. This layered family chorus, singing
in minor key, is unlike any other in contemporary poetry and is richly
deserving of the 2003 Tales Prize for narrative poetry.

"Like new blood to an old line, the vivid language, passionate intelligence
and 'unshielded gaze' of Arlene Jones quicken to life the denizens of
Deenewood in this fascinating saga of presiding ghosts, blighted bridal
hopes, the emotional frost of martial men, monogrammed lives, objects that
possess their owners. With lyrical power and a searing candor, these artful
poems reveal the hidden interior of a disappearing world."--Eleanor Wilner


ISBN 1932339167, 136 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.turningpointbooks.com/jones.html

----

BILLY LAST CROW by J.P. Dancing Bear

BILLY LAST CROW is a memorable sequence of poems about the struggles of its
protagonist, a Native American, to make a life in a country in which he is
as much foreign as native. Writing in clear, unadorned lines, J.P. Dancing
Bear has created an entire life within these poems.

"BILLY LAST CROW speaks to us about the darkness of life on a reservation
and the search for identity and tradition while struggling to survive and
break through the day-to-day patterns of alcohol, violence, and poverty?-the
isolation in this wholly American-made landscape, which the white man had
introduced into this spiritual terrain.? It is a powerful work full of story
and heart and spirit.? I was instantly pulled into its weave."?-Priscilla
Lee

 J. P. Dancing Bear lives in Northern California. His poems have appeared in
hundreds of publications including ATLANTA REVIEW, VERSE DAILY, THE NATIONAL
POETRY REVIEW, POETRY INTERNATIONAL, SEATTLE REVIEW, PERMAFROST, THE
BALTIMORE REVIEW, ADIRONDACK REVIEW, CONTROLLED BURN, CLACKAMAS LITERARY
REVIEW, RATTLE, NEW YORK QUARTERLY, SLIPSTREAM, PEARL, THE MONTSERRAT
REVIEW; BORDERLANDS: TEXAS POETRY REVIEW and elsewhere. He is a founding
editor of DISQUIETING MUSES and was the Editor-in-Chief of DISQUIETING
MUSES/DMQ REVIEW for five years.? He is now the editor of THE AMERICAN
POETRY JOURNAL. Dancing Bear is the author of several chapbooks including
WHAT LANGUAGE, won the 2002 Slipstream Press Poetry Prize. Dancing Bear's
poems have been nominated four times for Pushcart Prizes. He is the host of
"Out of Our Minds" a weekly radio show for public radio station KKUP
featuring some of today's best contemporary poets.

ISBN 1932339213 , 92 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.turningpointbooks.com/bear.html

---

FABLES FROM THE ARK by Kurt Brown, winner of the 2003 CustomWords Prize

FABLES FROM THE ARK, Kurt Brown's third full-length collection of poems, is
the winner of the 2003 CustomWords Poetry Prize. Written in spare,
understated lines, the book is a collection of darkly humorous retellings of
myth and mock narratives that immerse the reader in a deeper sense of the
fragility of human history and culture. Like the animals that board the ark,
we could be swept away at any minute--or not. On the edge of that question,
humanity lives out its life.

Kurt Brown was born in Brooklyn, New York and grew up on Long Island and in
Connecticut where he attended the University of Connecticut. He spent many
years in Aspen, Colorado, where he founded the Aspen Writers' Conference and
edited a literary magazine, ASPEN ANTHOLOGY. His poems have appeared in
SOUTHERN POETRY REVIEW, MASSACHUSETTS REVIEW, PLOUGHSHARES, HARVARD REVIEW,
CRAZYHORSE, and many other periodicals. He is the editor of DRIVE, THEY
SAID: POEMS ABOUT AMERICANS AND THEIR CARS, and VERSE & UNIVERSE: POEMS
ABOUT SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS, as well as a collection of essays about
science and mathematics, THE MEASURED WORD. With his wife, poet Laure-Anne
Bosselaar, he edited NIGHT OUT: POEMS ABOUT HOTELS, MOTELS, RESTAURANTS AND
BARS. He is also the editor of three collections of lectures given at
writers' conferences across AMERICA: THE TRUE SUBJECT, WRITING IT DOWN FOR
JAMES, and FACING THE LION. His two previous collections,  MORE THINGS IN
HEAVEN AND EARTH (2002) and RETURN OF THE PRODIGALS (1999) were published by
Four Way Books.? He lives with his wife in New York City.

"Aesop, Pessoa, a little Voltaire, some Dr. Wuchsal, Kurt Brown's tri-axial
collection offers up a tri-cornered playground;? you can enter the ark of
one and go be with the animals of Brown's mind; you can visit with Rita (our
dog is Rita, who knew she harbored such deepening kingdoms); you can meet
T?dj?ck, if T?dj?ck exists he's the one Brown might allow as how who wrote
the other two playgrounds. We can't be sure. We? I wonder. Who's that? Some
place in FABLES FROM THE ARK there might be a hint."?-Dara Wier

ISBN 1932339175, 88 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.custom-words.com/brown.html

----

EPICENTER by Wendy Wisner

The dark narrative sketched out in these graceful lyric poems immerses yet
distances the consciousness, like an impressionistic painting, slightly
blurred at the level of detail but made ever richer at the level of feeling,
of emotion. Wendy Wisner's EPICENTER is a remarkably composed (in many
senses of that word) first collection of poems and establishes her as a poet
to follow. 


Wendy Wisner teaches writing at Hunter College, where she received her MFA
in poetry. She was the recipient of an Academy of American Poets Prize and
the 2003 Amy Award. Her poems have appeared in RUNES, SOJOURNER, 5AM, MAIN
STREET RAG, and other journals. She lives in Brooklyn with her husband.

"Wendy Wisner's assured first book finds at the core of family both unease
and? tenderness. Her best poems possess a strange interiority that makes
them feel lit from within."-- Mark Doty

 "I am thrilled and moved by Wendy Wisner?s EPICENTER.? I want to invent new
words to herald the emergence of this wonderful young poet.? She is
delicate, but never dainty; she is exquisitely sensitive to the nuances of
feeling that constitute our inner life, but never hermetic.? These poems,
one after the other, take my breath away and give breath back to me.? What a
great gift this book is."--Jan Heller Levi

IBSN 1932339159, 80 pages, $16.00

Order by check or online at http://www.custom-words.com/wisner.html

-- 
Kevin Walzer, Ph.D.
Editor
WordTech Communications - A New Paradigm of Poetry
http://www.wordtechcommunications.com

 



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 14 17:55:22 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:55:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
References: <144.2be7c7bd.2dff6670@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02aa01c4525a$4d399490$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Aha!  I have no suits!  I do have several sports jackets, though.
  Bob, funny, I was visualizing you in something like a 
  Phantom of the Opera get-up, a full-length black velvet cloak, 
  wide-brimmed fedora pulled down over the eyes. The stasguards 
  shining floodlights into the ropes and gantries high up in the theatre,
  shouting "There he is...Get him!"
  Finnegan


  I like it, James!  I visualize my New-Poetry persona (and I'm not saying it isn't me) more as a cranky old man in a tee-shirt but with a cloak (yes, black), and baggy torn pants who somehow gets to all kinds of poetry readings where he sits in the front row and snarls to, and drools on, himself, every once in a while leaping up and lurching forward to attack some unfortunate offending poet with his cane, probably a young woman but maybe a child, then being led away, snarling incoherently about "the mainstream" and "no technique not in wide use fifty years or more ago!"

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jun 14 17:58:53 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:58:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ceravolo
Message-ID: <1d0.236beb6d.2dff799d@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/14/2004 2:33:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
antrobin at clipper.net writes:
James,
 
I?m not inclined to mount a vigorous defense of Ceravolo right now, but I 
must say that some of his work is immensely appealing to me, particularly the 
earlier stuff.  The later, poems, which you find more conventional, I also find 
more conventional, and a bit sappy/boring.
 
For me, Ceravolo?s ?loopiness? re-energizes the love lyric?the sentiments 
he expresses are almost shockingly conventional. His form and syntax, however, 
allow us to experience love, wonder, joy for the seasons, etc. anew.  In this 
respect (and in his subject matter) he reminds me a lot of cummings.  A minor, 
poet, maybe, but certainly worth the sort of attention that Koch pays him in 
his intro.
 
As for him having little regard for his reader, I think that?s a response 
conditioned by certain new critical assumptions about how and what poems are 
supposed to do; how they?re supposed to work, and so forth.   I used to teach an 
intro to poetry workshop in which I always included a few Ceravolo poems.  When 
I first did this, I expected the students to hate Ceravolo, to find the work 
inaccessible. Instead, the opposite occurred?they loved him!  They found him 
tremendously fun, and his non-logic ?made sense? to them in really interesting 
ways.   They hated Ashbery?no surprise.
 
Tony
Tony, that bit about "little regard for the reader" came off 
as more cutting than intended. I think Ceravolo in general
wants to delight his reader. And your comparison to Cummings
is apt to a point. But I do think that Ceravolo's poetry does 
put off the reader (intentionally or accidentally) with its 
disjunctive language, and with his silly simplistic images, 
not to mention the O's and exclamation points, etc. Sure,
with a little effort one can surrender to these elements 
and go happily along for the ride. But, for me, the straight-up 
surrealist moves are often more pleasurable, whacky as hell, 
but enjoyable, like that line about "Do you think I'm
the beautiful pants?"
Who could really hate a poet, with a day-job as an 
engineer, writing poems so joyfully disheveled 
as Ceravolo's? My gripe was more with Koch's 
Intro essay which was making claims for profundity 
and insight that clearly wasn't there in the poems. 
That Ceravolo pales in comparison to Ungaretti is
not a surprise...but it's partly due to the fact that their
artistic projects are so different, despite their sharing
an extreme lyric impulse. Anyway, how does that old 
candy bar ad jingle go?, "Sometimes you feel like a nut, 
sometimes you don't."  
Finnegan
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Jun 14 20:43:37 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:43:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
Message-ID: <295520-22004621504337249@M2W037.mail2web.com>

Paul - but what about your beard?



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Paul Lake paul.lake at mail.atu.edu
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:39:39 -0500
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7


On 6/9/04 6:00 PM, "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard.

Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have exactly
one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace the
similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit approximately
five times in the last ten years.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://mail2web.com/ .





From antrobin at clipper.net  Mon Jun 14 20:52:53 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:52:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ceravolo
In-Reply-To: <1d0.236beb6d.2dff799d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c45273$22142a00$86adefd8@Emily>

 
James,
 
I've never seen the collected Ceravolo with the Koch intro, so perhaps
I'm jumping the gun a bit.  I do think, though, that Koch always writes
as a fan, not as a critic.  Rather than close-read poems, he tends to
walk through them in a somewhat associative manner, trying to show how
this or that line can (but doesn't necessarily) lead to a particular
insight, idea, emotion, etc.
 
I still think that Ceravolo is worth more than you're giving him credit
for, BUT I will admit that Koch tends to enthusiastic about everything
he likes (which is a nice counterpoint to the vitriol and pettiness of
someone like William Logan, though I must admit that I cackle with glee
when Logan skewers a poet I don't like).
 
Anyway, I'm thinking that someone, somewhere must be working on a
critical appreciation of Ceravolo-though not many folks I know have read
him deeply, those who have are typically pretty fervent in their
appreciation.   I like his poetry quite a bit, but haven't made a
thorough study of it.  Perhaps a future project.
 
Tony 
 
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From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Jun 14 21:26:17 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:26:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <295520-22004621504337249@M2W037.mail2web.com>
References: <295520-22004621504337249@M2W037.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <FF89AD76-BE6A-11D8-8D08-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Jun 14, 2004, at 8:43 PM, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> Paul - but what about your beard?
>
>


It's pretty impeccable. I saw it this last weekend. Mine, on the other 
hand --


Why Not Shave?
?

A bearded man cannot disguise what food
He's eaten -- there it is, still on my face,
This morning's Grape-Nuts dangling till a rude
Stare sends my hand to find the guilty trace.
And summer sweat deposits salt that burns
My chin, blemishing it with itchy sores;
My breath, from little clouds in winter, turns
To icy ropes that drip on all the floors.
So why not shave this wayward pubic hair?
I love to lick between your legs until
My beard is soaked with your entrancing smell
And I get hard at work, just breathing the air.
I'd lose this hardon if my face were sheared --
Smell's not the least advantage of a beard.?


That was the last love poem I wrote to my first wife. She didn't like 
it.

>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Paul Lake paul.lake at mail.atu.edu
> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:39:39 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
>
>
> On 6/9/04 6:00 PM, "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard.
>
> Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have 
> exactly
> one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace 
> the
> similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit 
> approximately
> five times in the last ten years.
>
> Paul Lake
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 15 13:37:16 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:37:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques of Ceravolo Texts
References: <1cd.235ba1d5.2dfe6a63@aol.com>
Message-ID: <020e01c452ff$68c9a4c0$62efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Recently, a few posts about Joseph Ceravolo and his poetry were posted to New-Poetry. The following excerpt was quoted by someone not in tune with it:
Morning oh May flower! oh
May exist. Built
When will water stop
Cooling? Built, falling. Reeds. I am surprised.
I felt a defense of this, and of the complete poem by Ceravolo that was posted, and slammed, at the same time, called for. Hence, this essay. 

The first two lines of this text appeal strongly to me--even to the point of agreeing with Kenneth Koch, who edited a collection of Ceravolo's work in his introduction to which he discussed this text, that they are profound. Their first four rushed words, for me, bring us the shock of a suddenness of morning, or Beginning. But, oh, not just morning, but "May flower," another consequential Beginning. There's more: the poet confuses the four words so close together that morning-as-May, morning-as-flower, May-as-morning and flower-as-morning are all equally and simultaneously conveyed.

Another "oh"--to the realization that the May flower (and the rest of it) may exist; that is, it may not exist, may be a flower too ethereal to be real--something dreamed, or imagined, instead. In the meantime, the pun brings the potentiality of the month of May into the poem's connotative resources. Finally, there's the possibility that the flower, and the month, and the morning, are built--or, for me, finished. A gift, prepared for us, overnight. In just two short lines, then, a grand surprise is celebrated.

That the lines break grammatical norms underscores surprisedness. It has other virtues: it makes the lines a puzzle. This prevents the reader from taking them in automatically, and therefore uninvolvedly, or close to it. It also gives the reader a chance at the joy of solution (as all good poems do, not just the ones I call burstnorm; a good poem always makes the reader work to understand it). Beyond that, it pushes a reader's cerebral energy up; hence, when he solves the text as a puzzle, he'll have greater means quickly and thoroughly to enjoy whatever it then leads to.

I have trouble with the rest of the excerpt. I take it the poet feels that winter is still present, cooling water, in spite of the flower, and he wants to know when it will stop; soon, happily, is the implication. The water, too, is "built," or made rather than just there. It's falling--as rain? I can't connect either of these facts in an effective way with the beginning of the poem. "Reeds" add to the picture, but I'm not sure how, other than as simply an extra detail. "I am surprised" is a deadening anticlimax. The whole of the text to that point is a hymn to surprise. Hence, my feelings about the text are mixed. I hope soon to see the whole poem it's from. Then I'll be able better to evaluate it.

"Drunken Winter," the complete poem quoted, seems to me a terrific poem, all the way through:

Drunken Winter

Oak oak! like like
it then
     cold some wild paddle
so sky then;
flea you say
"geese geese" the boy
June of winter
of again
Oak sky
 Appropriately for a poem whose title is "Drunken Winter," this piece is a smear of words, words--and sounds--frequently and sometimes Pan-sensually repeated (e.g., as in "cold"/"wild"/"paddle"). At first, they seem an attempt to call attention to an oak (a wonder oak, the exclamation point suggests). The words, "like like/ it then," at once correct that impression, though: whatever the the poem's initial subject is, it's not oak, but like oak--stutteredly perceived (with the doubling of "like" also hinting of approval). The poem's fourth line seems to tell us fairly directly what is being discussed: sky. Certain facts have been stated; "so" (or therefore) the matter at hand is "sky" (in fact, it is, to a great degree, sky). This makes drunken sense if we conceive of a winter sky as the color of oak wood and--like oak--hard. 

But wait. How does the paddle get into the picture? It has to do with water; that and the geese who soon appear make me finally take the poem's drunkenly-arrived-at or drunkenly-behaving subject to be a pond or other body of water. The geese the boy announces (to correct "your" impression that something seen far off is a flea) are paddling through this body of water's reflections of an oak sky. Actually, the second line could be interpretted, albeit not completely sans strain, to be grammatically stating this, for it speaks of a "cold (that) some wild (or things that are wild) paddle (on or through)." Who knows, though: could be a watery sky. . . . Certainly, a cold wintry landscape is being presented.

It is also a "winter of again," or of archetypal returningness. It's at its best, its high summer or "June"--or in some way hinting of summer. At the same time, it is a "winter of--again--(an) oak sky." Perhaps the geese were a figment of the boy's imagination that the pond or sky unhardened for, but--more closely scrutinized--is without, after all. . . . The facts don't really matter; what matters is the meta-factual vivid impression of winter that comes across if one lets one's perceptions paddle randomly through the poem, if one lets flawed, sometimes inconsistent pictures of the scene form in one's appreciation like never-unbroken, shifting reflections in a pond.

(Note: I keep thinking there's some other poem "Drunken Winter" may be an allusion, or even reply, to, but which I can't place, and is more than likely non-existent. If anyone knows otherwise, please let me know.)

                                                  Bob Grumman


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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 15 15:02:23 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:02:23 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Press needs venue for 10th anniversary
Message-ID: <40CF47BE.9C779C51@earthlink.net>

Red Hen Press ( http://www.redhen.org/ ) is looking for a venue in NYC
to hold its 10th Anniversary readings and party September 29th or 30th,
or October 2nd or 3rd.  Initial plans with Poets House have fallen through.

Any suggestions, contacts etc. appreciated.  Needless to say, time is of
the essence.

- Jim, one of the poets slated to read!


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 15 15:20:48 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:20:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan lite?
Message-ID: <102.47d28184.2e00a610@aol.com>

Dan Schneider vs. the Rest of the World 
The never-ending showdown between a relentless poetic provocateur and the 
back-patting literary establishment that shudders at the very sound of his name
 
 
http://www.citypages.com/databank/20/990/article8241.asp
 
http://www.cosmoetica.com/
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jun 15 08:35:54 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:35:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <295520-22004621504337249@M2W037.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <BCF4575A.68D2%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 6/14/04 7:43 PM, "tadrichards at prodigy.net" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
wrote:

> Paul - but what about your beard?
> 
> 
> 
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Paul Lake paul.lake at mail.atu.edu
> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:39:39 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
> 
> 
> On 6/9/04 6:00 PM, "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
>> What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard.
> 
> Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have exactly
> one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace the
> similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit approximately
> five times in the last ten years.
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Alas, it's true. Guilty as charged. Imagine the shame I feel every day.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jun 15 08:38:27 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:38:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <FF89AD76-BE6A-11D8-8D08-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BCF457F3.68D3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Yes, indeed, Michael, I saw your beard and it's bigger and wilder than mine
was even in my quasi-hippie days. A John Berryman beard. A Santa Claus
beard. A beard to be reckoned with.

Paul


On 6/14/04 8:26 PM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 14, 2004, at 8:43 PM, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:
> 
>> Paul - but what about your beard?
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty impeccable. I saw it this last weekend. Mine, on the other
> hand --
> 
> 
> Why Not Shave?
> ?
> 
> A bearded man cannot disguise what food
> He's eaten -- there it is, still on my face,
> This morning's Grape-Nuts dangling till a rude
> Stare sends my hand to find the guilty trace.
> And summer sweat deposits salt that burns
> My chin, blemishing it with itchy sores;
> My breath, from little clouds in winter, turns
> To icy ropes that drip on all the floors.
> So why not shave this wayward pubic hair?
> I love to lick between your legs until
> My beard is soaked with your entrancing smell
> And I get hard at work, just breathing the air.
> I'd lose this hardon if my face were sheared --
> Smell's not the least advantage of a beard.?
> 
> 
> That was the last love poem I wrote to my first wife. She didn't like
> it.
> 
>> 
>> Original Message:
>> -----------------
>> From: Paul Lake paul.lake at mail.atu.edu
>> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:39:39 -0500
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/9/04 6:00 PM, "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> What do you say, Lake? of the dapper suits and the impeccable beard.
>> 
>> Don't know how I got dragged into this, but for the record, I have
>> exactly
>> one suit, which I bought at J. C. Penny's a few months ago, to replace
>> the
>> similar one I'd bought some 15 years ago. I've worn a suit
>> approximately
>> five times in the last ten years.
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>> http://mail2web.com/ .
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 15 15:53:31 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:53:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
Message-ID: <11a.33956a08.2e00adbb@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/15/2004 3:39:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
A beard to be reckoned with.
Hayden Carruth has a great Walt Whitman-like white beard.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 15 15:59:46 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:59:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Press needs venue for 10th anniversary
Message-ID: <1dd.241469ea.2e00af32@aol.com>

Jim,
These may be obvious choices....

The Bowery Poetry CLub
http://www.bowerypoetry.com/

The National Arts Club http://www.nationalartsclub.org/
Gray Wolf Press had its 10th Anniversary there.

Finnegan
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Jun 15 17:01:21 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:01:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <BCF457F3.68D3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <000b01c4531b$f55ea720$073f1c40@Emily>

I used to have a John Berryman beard.  When it was a bit shorter, a
stranger stopped me in the street and told me I looked like Claude
Debussy.
It wasn't as wild as Mike Snider's though.

Now I'm mainly clean-shaven, and I've found that students were more
scared when I had the beard.

Tony  





From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Jun 15 17:16:22 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:16:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques of Ceravolo Texts
In-Reply-To: <020e01c452ff$68c9a4c0$62efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000f01c4531e$091baef0$073f1c40@Emily>

Thanks, Bob Grumman, for your discussion of the Ceravolo poems.  Of
course, some will say that you're imposing a reading onto the text, but
that's what we always do when we read poems, isn't it?
 
Tony
 
 
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 15 17:15:03 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:15:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Press needs venue for 10th anniversary
References: <1dd.241469ea.2e00af32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40CF66D6.745438B4@earthlink.net>

Thanks!  I've passed on the info.

- Jim

> Jim,
> These may be obvious choices....
>  
> The Bowery Poetry CLub
> http://www.bowerypoetry.com/
>  
> The National Arts Club http://www.nationalartsclub.org/
> Gray Wolf Press had its 10th Anniversary there.
>  
> Finnegan


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 15 17:14:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:14:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan lite?
References: <102.47d28184.2e00a610@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005501c4531d$d2ba7ad0$89efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Dan Schneider vs. the Rest of the World 

The never-ending showdown between a relentless poetic provocateur and the back-patting literary establishment that shudders at the very sound of his name

http://www.citypages.com/databank/20/990/article8241.asp

http://www.cosmoetica.com/


Pretty funny article.  One sub-mediocrity raging against other sub-mediocrities.  I agree with a lot that he says but somehow wonder how much substance there is behind his hostilities.  He came out with the Emperor's new clothes cliche, for God's sakes, then the one about the blind men and the elephant.  And the two poems of his that were quoted are . . . well, not very good.  Strange that he hasn't taken on New-Poetry--or has he?

It is disgusting that someone like this guy gets so much and such lengthy exposure when there are so many much much better poets around, even in Minneapolis (Scott Helmes is one in Minneapolis I just thought of, but I doubt that either the writer of the article or its subject ever heard of him).

--Bob G. 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 15 19:10:27 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:10:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques of Ceravolo Texts
References: <000f01c4531e$091baef0$073f1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <00a901c4532d$f48ea7c0$89efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Thanks, Bob Grumman, for your discussion of the Ceravolo poems.  Of course, some will say that you're imposing a reading onto the text, but that's what we always do when we read poems, isn't it?

   

  Tony



  Not I!  Imposition is making claims about what a text says without supporting them with the text, it seems to me.  Once you support your reading with the text, as I'm pretty sure I did in detail here, you're interpreting.  You may still be full of hot air, but I feel you're only guilty then of misreading, which is a lesser crime than imposing a reading.



  --Bob G.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Jun 15 19:25:53 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:25:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <11a.33956a08.2e00adbb@aol.com>
References: <11a.33956a08.2e00adbb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <58334BA0-BF23-11D8-8D08-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Jun 15, 2004, at 3:53 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/15/2004 3:39:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
> A beard to be reckoned with.
> Hayden Carruth has a great Walt Whitman-like white?beard.
>

I played Walt Whitman beard, and feet in the indie film "The Delicate 
Art of the Rifle" ( http://members.aol.com/clcfilms/ ) He was supposed 
to be an ancestor, I think, of the main character, and the weird thing 
was that he had nothing to say. Bruce Sterling played a newscaster and 
John Kessel was spectacularly (but not bloodily) murdered in the 
University of Louisville quad. Film never found a distributor.




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 15 19:59:01 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:59:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beards and rally caps
References: <000b01c4531b$f55ea720$073f1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV61LNsaeaIh0000b628@hotmail.com>

Dear Tony,

I haven't trimmed my beard since the NBA playoffs started, planning to keep
it until either the Lakers won or were eliminated.

I trimmed it tonight and my hair (only half a head of it).

Figured it couldn't hurt, but Detroit sure looks like the better team, and
I'm preparing for a funeral.

Maybe I should read Auden's "Funereal Blues." (sp.?)  And I don't like Auden
much.  LOL!

But to be fair, the oldest starter for Detroit, R. Wallace, is only 29.  And
we got 40 (Malone), Payton (36), and Shaq (33?).

Truly, may the best team win.  I think Larry Brown is a better game coach,
Phil's better with the egos.

But this is about teams.  And beards, of course.


--CE



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7


| I used to have a John Berryman beard.  When it was a bit shorter, a
| stranger stopped me in the street and told me I looked like Claude
| Debussy.
| It wasn't as wild as Mike Snider's though.
|
| Now I'm mainly clean-shaven, and I've found that students were more
| scared when I had the beard.
|
| Tony
|
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Jun 15 20:17:31 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:17:31 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beards and rally caps
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV61LNsaeaIh0000b628@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c45337$57503f00$bdadefd8@Emily>

CE,

I've hated the Lakers for as long as I can remember, even before I was a
basketball fan.  I am, then, as you can imagine, very excited. Tonight
*should* be filled with great festivity.

Rasheed Wallace, formerly of my (wretched) team, the Portland Trail
Blazers, is a hero of mine.  Heh.  

I haven't shaved in a couple of weeks.  I'm getting scruffy.  

Tony
p.s. I like Auden.  No surprise.

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of C. E. Chaffin
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:59 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Beards and rally caps

Dear Tony,

I haven't trimmed my beard since the NBA playoffs started, planning to
keep
it until either the Lakers won or were eliminated.

I trimmed it tonight and my hair (only half a head of it).

Figured it couldn't hurt, but Detroit sure looks like the better team,
and
I'm preparing for a funeral.

Maybe I should read Auden's "Funereal Blues." (sp.?)  And I don't like
Auden
much.  LOL!

But to be fair, the oldest starter for Detroit, R. Wallace, is only 29.
And
we got 40 (Malone), Payton (36), and Shaq (33?).

Truly, may the best team win.  I think Larry Brown is a better game
coach,
Phil's better with the egos.

But this is about teams.  And beards, of course.


--CE



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7


| I used to have a John Berryman beard.  When it was a bit shorter, a
| stranger stopped me in the street and told me I looked like Claude
| Debussy.
| It wasn't as wild as Mike Snider's though.
|
| Now I'm mainly clean-shaven, and I've found that students were more
| scared when I had the beard.
|
| Tony
|
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Jun 15 20:33:23 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:33:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7
In-Reply-To: <58334BA0-BF23-11D8-8D08-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <11a.33956a08.2e00adbb@aol.com> <58334BA0-BF23-11D8-8D08-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <C61FAAFC-BF2C-11D8-8D08-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Jun 15, 2004, at 7:25 PM, Michael Snider wrote:

> Kessel was spectacularly (but not bloodily) murdered in the University 
> of Louisville quad.

Make   that NC State. CRS, you know.



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 15 22:21:44 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:21:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] New from Wild Honey Press
Message-ID: <c8.48bb46fe.2e0108b8@aol.com>

Date:? ? Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:40:44 +0100
From:? ? wild honey press <poetry at WILDHONEYPRESS.COM>
Subject: New from Wild Honey Press

Apologies for cross posting.

I'm delighted to announce publication of the following chapbooks:

Three-Legged-Dog by Caitriona O'Reilly and David Wheatley
(http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/tld.htm)

Struggle and radiance: ten commentaries by Jill Jones
(http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/Struggle.htm)

and

The Rothenberg Variations by Pierre Joris.
(http://www.wildhoneypress.com/BOOKS/roth_var.htm)

images of the books, biographical notes and links, and extracts can be =
found at the links above.
Each of these chapbooks costs euro 5 / STG 3.50 / USD 5.
Subscribers copies are in the post.

If you're broke but interested bc me.

best wishes

Randolph Healy
Wild Honey Press

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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 15 22:22:06 2004
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:22:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beards & shameless self promotion
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV61LNsaeaIh0000b628@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <JMENIAHNFGOCLHLNNIPHAEHMCDAA.amyhappens@yahoo.com>

I don't have a beard but I have new poems here:  www.blazevox.org/ak.htm
and here:  http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooTwentyone/king.html
Thanks!




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 15 22:24:04 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:24:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Octopus magazine, Bolivia
Message-ID: <1a2.2595b273.2e010944@aol.com>

Date:? ? Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:38:06 -0500
From:? ? Kent Johnson <Kent.Johnson at HIGHLAND.EDU>
Subject: Octopus magazine, Bolivia

Forrest Gander and I leave for Bolivia in a couple of days and return at =
the beginning of July. We will be giving presentations in La Paz and =
Cochabamba on the Saenz book of last year and the forthcoming translation =
of The Night, his last work. One of the activities planned for us by the =
poetry community there is a lengthy La Paz tour of Saenz's tavern haunts. =
I would appreciate any good, silent thoughts/vibes from any persons on the =
list regarding my safe return.=20

A section of The Night has just been made available at Octopus Magazine, =
for anyone interested. Other sections of the poem are soon forthcoming in =
TriQuarterly, Mandorla, and No: a journal of the arts. It's a great poem, =
very strange and powerful, and we were pleased to learn a few weeks ago =
that the manuscript was one of ten works chosen for the 2004 PEN Translatio=
n Grant award.

http://www.octopusmagazine.com

Also in the Octopus issue (which has a special feature on the great =
American poet Ronald Johnson) 
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 15 22:33:15 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:33:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan lite?
Message-ID: <1d0.238858d9.2e010b6b@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/15/2004 5:37:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> http://www.citypages.com/databank/20/990/article8241.asp
>   
> http://www.cosmoetica.com/
>   
>  
> Pretty funny article.  One sub-mediocrity raging against other 
> sub-mediocrities.  I agree with a lot that he says but somehow wonder how much substance 
> there is behind his hostilities.  He came out with the Emperor's new clothes 
> cliche, for God's sakes, then the one about the blind men and the elephant.  
> And the two poems of his that were quoted are . . . well, not very good.  
> Strange that he hasn't taken on New-Poetry--or has he?
> 

Bob, he must know he'd be overmatched climbing into the cyber-robes
of this ring. But I'm surprised, despite some deep aesthetic differences, 
you're not a little more sympatheticr to someone like DS who seems to 
so gleefully like to play 'whack-a-mole' with contemporary poets.
Finnegan
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun 16 00:45:38 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:45:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan lite?
In-Reply-To: <102.47d28184.2e00a610@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BCF53AA2.9ED7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/15/04 2:20 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

Dan Schneider vs. the Rest of the World

The never-ending showdown between a relentless poetic provocateur and the
back-patting literary establishment that shudders at the very sound of his
name 

 

 

http://www.citypages.com/databank/20/990/article8241.asp

 http://www.cosmoetica.com/
---------------------------------

Dan Schneider's critical prose speaks for itself.  Alas:

"Naomi Shihab Nye is about as Arab as I am, which nowadays could be
dangerous- but given the blood I have means that both she & I are relatively
safe. In truth NSN is 1 of the premier hausfrau poets of our times. Along
with the deadly dull Carolyn Forch? she is 1 of the leading lights of the
hausfrau brigade. So alike are the duo that in the late 1990s they both came
to read at the repellant Hungry Mind bookstore, only to both rip bad poetry,
yet refuse to name names, claiming that the offenders are known, but they
won?t name?em.
? Despite her lack of poetic talent & her terminal PC Elitism I can honestly
say that as a poet NSN has a nice ass, especially for a woman pushing 50.
That along with the long braided ponytail she wears that sways near her ass
is enough for me to, well, take it a little easier on NSN than I would were
she bloated beyond recognition like, oh, a certain other poetastress in the
hausfrau brigade." 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun 16 06:36:23 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:36:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan lite?
References: <1d0.238858d9.2e010b6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c4538d$c6e9ed10$55efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

    http://www.citypages.com/databank/20/990/article8241.asp
      
    http://www.cosmoetica.com/
      

    Pretty funny article.  One sub-mediocrity raging against other sub-mediocrities.  I agree with a lot that he says but somehow wonder how much substance there is behind his hostilities.  He came out with the Emperor's new clothes cliche, for God's sakes, then the one about the blind men and the elephant.  And the two poems of his that were quoted are . . . well, not very good.  Strange that he hasn't taken on New-Poetry--or has he?



  Bob, he must know he'd be overmatched climbing into the cyber-robes
  of this ring. But I'm surprised, despite some deep aesthetic differences, 
  you're not a little more sympatheticr to someone like DS who seems to 
  so gleefully like to play 'whack-a-mole' with contemporary poets.
  Finnegan 

  He and I have a lot in common, and I enjoy his attacks--but you hit it when you spoke of "deep aesthetic differences."  Aesthetics is just about everything with me.

  Also, as I keep saying, I mainly knock the attitude that the Ashbery to Wilbur continuum is all there is in American Poetry, I don't knock every poet on that continuum.  Unlike Schneider, too (at least as far as the article on him indicates), I am a fairly energetic appreciator of many poets--though not so much here, because poetry outside the Ashbery to Wilbur continuum gets discussed so seldom here.

  Another observation: what is the problem in Minneapolis that no one seems able to stand up to this guy?

  --Bob G.

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun 16 07:39:52 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 07:39:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan lite?
References: <BCF53AA2.9ED7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <008401c45396$a5a7bd90$55efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Wm. Logan lite?Dan Schneider vs. the Rest of the World 

The never-ending showdown between a relentless poetic provocateur and the back-patting literary establishment that shudders at the very sound of his name 





http://www.citypages.com/databank/20/990/article8241.asp 

http://www.cosmoetica.com/

  ---------------------------------

  Dan Schneider's critical prose speaks for itself.  Alas:

  --David Graham

  David Graham's quotation of a critical essay's ungenteel and politically incorrect introductory paragraphs by itself as an example of the critical prose of its author speaks rather more accurately for itself.
  Frankly, the rest of Schneider's essay didn't impress me very much.  In analyzing a poem by his victim, he scores her for not sticking to the subject, and for simply whining.  I find him wrong about the first, right about the second.  He offers a revision of the poem that reduces its length by something like 80%, and--in my view, does improve it, substantially.  He seems unable to appreciate the virtues the poet's work has, however: clear writing, telling images and anecdotes, and a touch of flair.  He is mainly against her outlook, which is what just about all bad critics are most concerned with in poetry.  He has no problem with his victim's small and very conventional tool kit--I suspect he has the same tool kit, just thinks he uses it better than she.

  He is a better social critic than poetry critic, so his number on his victim's success in the BigWorld seemed much more convincing to me than his attack on her poem.  He forgot to mention the value to her career that being female and of Arabian descent has been, though.
  I think the poetry world could use more Schneiders, and fewer complacent stasguards voicing sage dismay at the bad manners and  opinions of poets insufficiently admiring of Wilberia, while carefully avoiding subjects they can't be measured, thoughtful and sometimes mildly entertaining about.

  --Bob G

  "Naomi Shihab Nye is about as Arab as I am, which nowadays could be dangerous- but given the blood I have means that both she & I are relatively safe. In truth NSN is 1 of the premier hausfrau poets of our times. Along with the deadly dull Carolyn Forch? she is 1 of the leading lights of the hausfrau brigade. So alike are the duo that in the late 1990s they both came to read at the repellant Hungry Mind bookstore, only to both rip bad poetry, yet refuse to name names, claiming that the offenders are known, but they won?t name?em.
    Despite her lack of poetic talent & her terminal PC Elitism I can honestly say that as a poet NSN has a nice ass, especially for a woman pushing 50. That along with the long braided ponytail she wears that sways near her ass is enough for me to, well, take it a little easier on NSN than I would were she bloated beyond recognition like, oh, a certain other poetastress in the hausfrau brigade." 


  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================

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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun 16 08:16:28 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:16:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wm. Logan lite?
Message-ID: <15b.37b8036a.2e01941c@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/16/2004 12:45:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> Dan Schneider's critical prose speaks for itself.  Alas:
> 

Yes, this Schneider character seems to believe that bad manners
and egregious behavior are the same as mordant literary criticism.
Finnegan
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 16 16:58:56 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:58:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com>

For any interested, _Tryst_ magazine has a feature on me with a new essay,
"Towards a New Direction in Poetry."

http://www.tryst3.com/issue9/contents.html

The site's a little hard to navigate and is copyright protected, so I
couldn't supply a direct link to the essay, which was my intention.

To get to the essay, click on "feature," then go to the bottom of the
interview and click on "essay."

The formatting of the essay could use some help.  And it wasn't I who put
the references in for the well-known quotes at the end of it-- that was the
editor's doing, and rather defeated my purpose in illustrating
"quotability," although she apparently couldn't recognize the line by
cummings.

There's also a long interview, which I would spare you, but from which I
offer this excerpt:

Mia: "Is there anything else you'd like to discuss that I didn't cover
adequately or not mentioned here?"

CE: "Jeez, isn't this enough? When I read interviews with poets I'm usually
bored, especially when they talk about their own work. Let's give your
readers a break (if any of them had the patience to read this far).  And
thanks for having me."

There's also eleven poems, some old, some new, with a great picture of my
daughter and grandson beside them.

That's my favorite part-- the picture, I mean!


--CE

p.s. Detroit was the better team and I was very happy for Larry Brown.  Even
dreamed of him last night and we had a good talk.  And Derek Fisher's
concession was a class act.


From antrobin at clipper.net  Wed Jun 16 16:33:51 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:33:51 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c453e1$42c88100$67acefd8@Emily>

Interesting interview. I'm constantly amazed/amused, though, at how
different poets and readers conceive of the parameters of a seemingly
simple term like "communication."

All poetry communicates something.  I often feel that those who define
communication as Chaffin seems to do here are really saying that all
poetry must be easily paraphraseable into "standard" or "non poetic"
language.  

Fair enough, but wrong, I think.  That is to say, different people come
to poetry for different things.  Chaffin admits that only poets (with a
few exceptions) read poetry.  Why then, does it matter if one reader
(probably a poet) enjoys reading Stein, while the other is happy with
Philip Levine?  

Why must we be prescriptive? (Poetry MUST do this. It MUSTN'T do that.)


*

I don't believe in Great Art.  I used to.  There are a lot of good
books.  Lots of good poems.  That's it.

*

I feel a little like Bob Grumman admitting this, but I always chuckle
when a poet writes a polemic demanding "clarity" or decrying
"difficulty" chains poor Jorie and Johnny A. to the whipping post. Sure,
they can take it, but why not find someone who really assaults your
sensibilities?  I know, I know...it's because JA and JG have achieved
early canonization and a certain amount of success for their "hard"
poetry.  But if that's the case (if that's why you're picking on them)
it really just sounds like sour grapes.

*

Post-modernism as the pre-occupation with self is interesting, but
extremely reductive. It ignores, though, huge amounts of poetry.
Language, for instance. The only real characteristic that I find linking
most texts who claim (or are claimed as) "post modern" is a
foregrounding of the constructiveness of language, of the denial of
language as a transparent medium, tho' that's old hat now, too.

If you want pre-occupation with self, you need to go back to Wordsworth,
Shelley, etc.  Even Romanticism, though, wasn't the start.  John Donne,
championed by TSE, master of the impersonal, is always writing about
himself!
French Symbolism, too, was a hyperRomantic movement, interested in the
self above almost all else.  Eliot was schooled at the knees of these.
(Frenchies).

In F.R. Leavis' "New Bearings in English Poetry," Eliot is praised for
his supposed impersonality, but when Leavis praises specific passages
and comments on them, he chooses those in which the poet seems to be
dealing with "personal" (that is, personal to TSE) matter.

*

I agree that "Prufrock" is one of the two or three best poems in the
English language--at least in this past century.

I find most of the rest of Eliot a deadly bore.

Just some thoughts.

Tony







From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun 16 16:46:00 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:46:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <016201c453e3$64f50f80$55efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> "Towards a New Direction in Poetry."

Needless to say, CE, the title of your essay intrigued me.  When I read it,
though, I couldn't figure out what you were recommending as "a new
direction."  Directness in poetry?  But surely dozens of poets throughout
the previous century pushed directness.  Williams.  Bukowski.  Gioia.

I only skimmed your essay, so there's a good chance I missed something.
(I'm rushing everything today--got a lotta things to do.  Plan to go back to
your essay.  Also finally finish your Eliot essay one of these days.  But so
too much to do all the time.)

I wonder if I'd ever suggest a new direction for poetry.  I think poetry has
all the directions it needs.  I only call for the proper recognition of the
few that are being ignored.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun 16 17:00:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:00:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000001c453e1$42c88100$67acefd8@Emily>
Message-ID: <017701c453e4$fbb8d5e0$55efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> All poetry communicates something.  I often feel that those who define
> communication as Chaffin seems to do here are really saying that all
> poetry must be easily paraphraseable into "standard" or "non poetic"
> language.
>
> Fair enough, but wrong, I think.  That is to say, different people come
> to poetry for different things.

Interestingly (I think), I get in trouble with my burstnorm poetry friends
by holding that if a poem can't *ultimately* be *reasonably fully*
paraphrased into standard language, it's no good.  Note well that I don't
think poetry ought to be easily (or completely) paraphrasable, just
paraphrasable.  Oh, I'd have to add that the paraphrase would have to seem
reasonable to the majority of poetry readers.

--Bob G.




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 16 17:30:05 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:30:05 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000001c453e1$42c88100$67acefd8@Emily>
Message-ID: <40D0BBDD.E87ECFBD@earthlink.net>


Anthony Robinson wrote:
> 
> Interesting interview. I'm constantly amazed/amused, though, at how
> different poets and readers conceive of the parameters of a seemingly
> simple term like "communication."
> 
> All poetry communicates something.  I often feel that those who define
> communication as Chaffin seems to do here are really saying that all
> poetry must be easily paraphraseable into "standard" or "non poetic"
> language.

Would you go further?  That the best poems are not paraphraseable?  Even
those that paraphrase themselves within themselves?  Such as Ezra
Pound's "In A Station Of The Metro":
 
The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough.

Or maybe that's just an example of one that doesn't need paraphrasing.

- Jim


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jun 16 18:06:53 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:06:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Miseries of Poetry
Message-ID: <016d01c453ee$3bc22e80$3e1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A PDF file of The Miseries of Poetry: Traductions from the Greek, traduced by Alexandra Papaditsas and me, is now available at  www.blazevox.org/miseries.pdf 

Kent Johnson
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Jun 16 20:22:59 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:22:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Nice interview. Thanks for the link.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 4:58 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


> For any interested, _Tryst_ magazine has a feature on me with a new essay,
> "Towards a New Direction in Poetry."
>
> http://www.tryst3.com/issue9/contents.html
>
> The site's a little hard to navigate and is copyright protected, so I
> couldn't supply a direct link to the essay, which was my intention.
>
> To get to the essay, click on "feature," then go to the bottom of the
> interview and click on "essay."
>
> The formatting of the essay could use some help.  And it wasn't I who put
> the references in for the well-known quotes at the end of it-- that was
the
> editor's doing, and rather defeated my purpose in illustrating
> "quotability," although she apparently couldn't recognize the line by
> cummings.
>
> There's also a long interview, which I would spare you, but from which I
> offer this excerpt:
>
> Mia: "Is there anything else you'd like to discuss that I didn't cover
> adequately or not mentioned here?"
>
> CE: "Jeez, isn't this enough? When I read interviews with poets I'm
usually
> bored, especially when they talk about their own work. Let's give your
> readers a break (if any of them had the patience to read this far).  And
> thanks for having me."
>
> There's also eleven poems, some old, some new, with a great picture of my
> daughter and grandson beside them.
>
> That's my favorite part-- the picture, I mean!
>
>
> --CE
>
> p.s. Detroit was the better team and I was very happy for Larry Brown.
Even
> dreamed of him last night and we had a good talk.  And Derek Fisher's
> concession was a class act.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Jun 17 00:29:07 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:29:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MUG rejection letter...
Message-ID: <20040616232848.F60624@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Been getting 'trolled' on my poetry site of late. This is my response:

MUG rejection letter...

Dear POET'S NAME:

We here at MUG are sorry, but at this time
your words don't pass muster for the type
of site we're constructing - by poets
for poets (and a crazy part-time
code hacker thrown in too).

We deeply regret not allowing you to join
our community at the moment. Please do not
let this be a discouragement. You really
truly are a wonderful writer.

You know, I bet if you submitted something

to poetry.com they would offer to include
it in a book! Really! Try right now; type
in http://www.poetry.com and sign-up (they
will accept poets of all calibres) and enter
your poetry. In no time you will be mega-poetry-
famous and we here at MUG will regret not letting
you in to our little poetry club with the same
26 letters and a few symbols being used over
and over and over again in different combinations.

Maybe one day someone here will 'get it right' you
know? Maybe one day you will come back and be
accepted into the poetry hack club that is
known as MUG.

Hey, at least it's not a form rejection letter,
eh?

Isn't there a bright side? That's what I used to
tell myself as some college mag or another turned
down yet another one of my poems?

So, sir, until next time we meet or don't meet, this
is MUG saying ... keep writing - just not
for us at this time.

Thanks,
kpaul
http://www.mallasch.com/mug/






From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun 17 08:17:23 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:17:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kimball defends the Sublime
Message-ID: <81.e7e23b0.2e02e5d3@aol.com>


> DEFENDING the Sublime: An Interview with Roger Kimball
> Men's News Daily - Guerneville,CA,USA
>  
> <http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/c-e/chapin/2004/chapin061604.htm>
> 

BC: Do you have any idea why artists and writers tend to be members of the 
political left??? What went right with you [pun intended]?

RK: Well, not all writers or artists do, of course. Take T.S. Eliot, or 
Yeats, or Wallace Stevens, or Robert Frost. Take Henri Matisse or Wyndham Lewis.? 
We are often seduced into identifying artists and writers with the Left? 
because at least since the late 19th century, and especially since the 1960s, that 
is where most of the propaganda for culture has come from. The bohemianism that 
was an integral part of the avant-garde had a natural affinity with Leftist 
politics, but the longer the view one takes, the less convincing does the 
association between writers and artists and left-wing politics seem. 
    



    





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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Jun 17 13:05:27 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:05:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Links help request
Message-ID: <02b901c4548d$4bd8fc50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I've - with a screwup or two along the way - changed the address of my website, and because I screwed it up so thoroughly in the process, I'm trying to make sure that whatever browsers care about such things are pointing to the correct new one. I'm hoping to get enough links and hits to the right URL to gradually squeeze out the wrong ones.



So...could anyone who currently links to my site please change the link? The new one is

www.opus40.org/tadrichards

And would anyone who has a site with links, but doesn't include me, please consider linking to me?

Also, I've posted the following new entries to my Poetry and Jazz - Portraits and Links section (you can see that there's no particular rhyme or reason to my selections):

 Jimmy Santiago Baca
Louise Gluck
Antler
Muriel Rukeyser 
 Beth Ann Fennelly
Denise Duhamel
Sonia Sanchez
 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jun 17 13:15:29 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:15:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Links help request
References: <02b901c4548d$4bd8fc50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <02ac01c4548e$b0812780$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Good Richard that you kept the same title of your page, so I saved your site and overwrote the old link. My poor Poets' Corner is still where it is, in the sense that the links:
Poets on Poets
Reviews
Links

were not opened as I wanted. But in God we trust, don't we, so sooner or later I might be able to link you as I have wished since long.

Take care, Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:05 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Links help request


  I've - with a screwup or two along the way - changed the address of my website, and because I screwed it up so thoroughly in the process, I'm trying to make sure that whatever browsers care about such things are pointing to the correct new one. I'm hoping to get enough links and hits to the right URL to gradually squeeze out the wrong ones.



  So...could anyone who currently links to my site please change the link? The new one is

  www.opus40.org/tadrichards

  And would anyone who has a site with links, but doesn't include me, please consider linking to me?

  Also, I've posted the following new entries to my Poetry and Jazz - Portraits and Links section (you can see that there's no particular rhyme or reason to my selections):

   Jimmy Santiago Baca
  Louise Gluck
  Antler
  Muriel Rukeyser 
   Beth Ann Fennelly
  Denise Duhamel
  Sonia Sanchez
   
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From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Jun 17 14:07:57 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:07:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 3, Summer 2004, Now Online!
In-Reply-To: <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <f160a12104061711073acca3dd@mail.gmail.com>

Hamilton Stone Review, Issue 3, Summer 2004, Now Online!

This time an all-poetry issue featuring Jordan Davis, Harriet Zinnes,
Edward Field, Gene Frumkin, Zan Ross, Barry Alpert, Hugh Seidman,
Alvin Greenberg, and Mary Rising Higgins.

         http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html

Submissions to the Hamilton Stone Review

At this time, the Hamilton Stone Review is not open to unsolicited
fiction submissions, but will be taking unsolicited poetry submissions
during September, October, and December 2004 for Issue #5, which will
be out in February 2005. These unsolicited poetry submissions should
go directly to Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net or
halvard at gmail.com.


--
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Jun 17 14:34:39 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:34:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
Message-ID: <6.2be0d9c0.2e033e3f@cs.com>

Here is something forwarded from Michael Donaghy:


Dear All,

I thought this would amuse those of you who have an ear - or for that matter 
anyone who passed freshman English and knows what iambic pentameter sounds 
like. In "JANUS-FACED BLOCKBUSTER", a review of Cary Nelson's Anthology of Modern 
American Poetry on her website, Marjorie Perloff, who styles herself an 
authority on prosody, quotes these lines by the African-American poet Georgia 
Douglas Johnson (written in 1918) :

The heart of a woman goes forth with the dawn
As a lone bird, soft winging, so restlessly on;
Afar o?er life?s turrets and vales does it roam
In the wake of those echoes the heart calls home.
The heart of a woman falls back with the night,
And enters some alien cage in its plight,
And tires to forget it has dreamed of the stars
While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)

Tuts Madge, ?These chug-chug iambic pentameter stanzas rhyming aabb remind 
one of a Hallmark card? 



Now don?t go telling everyone.


All the Best,
Michael 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jun 17 15:01:00 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:01:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
In-Reply-To: <6.2be0d9c0.2e033e3f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <40D1B22C.17078.1AB049A@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2004 at 14:34, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> Here is something forwarded from Michael Donaghy:
> I thought this would amuse those of you who have an ear - or for that
> matter anyone who passed freshman English and knows what iambic
> pentameter sounds like. In "JANUS-FACED BLOCKBUSTER", a review of Cary
> Nelson's Anthology of Modern American Poetry on her website, Marjorie
> Perloff, who styles herself an authority on prosody, quotes these
> lines by the African-American poet Georgia Douglas Johnson (written in
> 1918) :
> 
> The heart of a woman goes forth with the dawn
> As a lone bird, soft winging, so restlessly on;
> Afar o'er life's turrets and vales does it roam
> In the wake of those echoes the heart calls home.
> The heart of a woman falls back with the night,
> And enters some alien cage in its plight,
> And tires to forget it has dreamed of the stars
> While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)
> 
> Tuts Madge, "These chug-chug iambic pentameter stanzas rhyming aabb
> remind one of a Hallmark card."

Hey, she got the rhyme scheme right. Whattaya want?

Marcus






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 15:14:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:14:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
References: <6.2be0d9c0.2e033e3f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <019801c4549f$aca2a510$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Here is something forwarded from Michael Donaghy:


Dear All,

I thought this would amuse those of you who have an ear - or for that matter anyone who passed freshman English and knows what iambic pentameter sounds like. In "JANUS-FACED BLOCKBUSTER", a review of Cary Nelson's Anthology of Modern American Poetry on her website, Marjorie Perloff, who styles herself an authority on prosody, quotes these lines by the African-American poet Georgia Douglas Johnson (written in 1918) :

The heart of a woman goes forth with the dawn
As a lone bird, soft winging, so restlessly on;
Afar o?er life?s turrets and vales does it roam
In the wake of those echoes the heart calls home.
The heart of a woman falls back with the night,
And enters some alien cage in its plight,
And tires to forget it has dreamed of the stars
While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)

Tuts Madge, ?These chug-chug iambic pentameter stanzas rhyming aabb remind one of a Hallmark card? 

Hey, at least credit Perloff with that singlily original "Hallmark" jab!

--Bob G.

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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 15:37:37 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:37:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000001c453e1$42c88100$67acefd8@Emily>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV28QDSZGogg00012f5e@hotmail.com>

Thanks for your thoughts, Tony.

Don't want to get into any debate with you or Bob G.

I just wanted to say that in my critical writings I do try to allow a lot
latitude for good poetry.  That's why I came up with a Mandala (in
Logopoetry III) to try and approximate quality in a poem, rather than lists
of qualities.  Not a grid; a symbol, if you will.

As for a polemic for clarity, I said in the interview,

"Accessibility means that the careful reader of poetry, say an elite
audience even, will not be frustrated by a first read of a poem but
encouraged to return at greater leisure.  It does not mean "dumbing down."
It does not mean the throwaway first impression one gets from a poem by
Bukowski, or the obviousness of an Angelou or Rod McKuen.  It means there
exists a human connection, even if unconscious at first, sufficient to touch
our heart and our reason.  It does not proscribe surrealism, symbolism, the
deep image school, or anything which comes to us from less than the
expectation of the rational; as Eliot wrote, 'Genuine poetry can communicate
before it is understood.'"



It has been said that great poetry (although you only allow good!) is what
cannot be paraphrased or translated.



I have suggested the opposite, reminding folks of Shakespeare's universality
and popularity despite the difficulty of translation or even paraphrase, and
I have read _Hamlet_ in German, an old Luther German translation at that,
and truly enjoyed it.  Less was lost than I ever expected.



In the essay, I wanted to say that poetry that enters the language achieves
the greatest distinction, and I read little today that even contains the
possibility.  Quotability is important to me.  The lines of poetry that run
through my head every day like background music lines like these:



"Thou still unravished bride of quietness"



"He clasps the crag with crooked hands"



"There would be more than ocean-water broken
Before God's last 'Put out the Light' was spoken."

"An expense of spirit in a waste of shame."

But on New Poetry I long ago admitted to being a bit of a dinosaur.  In
fact, as a child I wanted to be a paleontologist.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and comment.

CE




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| Interesting interview. I'm constantly amazed/amused, though, at how
| different poets and readers conceive of the parameters of a seemingly
| simple term like "communication."
|
| All poetry communicates something.  I often feel that those who define
| communication as Chaffin seems to do here are really saying that all
| poetry must be easily paraphraseable into "standard" or "non poetic"
| language.
|
| Fair enough, but wrong, I think.  That is to say, different people come
| to poetry for different things.  Chaffin admits that only poets (with a
| few exceptions) read poetry.  Why then, does it matter if one reader
| (probably a poet) enjoys reading Stein, while the other is happy with
| Philip Levine?
|
| Why must we be prescriptive? (Poetry MUST do this. It MUSTN'T do that.)
|
|
| *
|
| I don't believe in Great Art.  I used to.  There are a lot of good
| books.  Lots of good poems.  That's it.
|
| *
|
| I feel a little like Bob Grumman admitting this, but I always chuckle
| when a poet writes a polemic demanding "clarity" or decrying
| "difficulty" chains poor Jorie and Johnny A. to the whipping post. Sure,
| they can take it, but why not find someone who really assaults your
| sensibilities?  I know, I know...it's because JA and JG have achieved
| early canonization and a certain amount of success for their "hard"
| poetry.  But if that's the case (if that's why you're picking on them)
| it really just sounds like sour grapes.
|
| *
|
| Post-modernism as the pre-occupation with self is interesting, but
| extremely reductive. It ignores, though, huge amounts of poetry.
| Language, for instance. The only real characteristic that I find linking
| most texts who claim (or are claimed as) "post modern" is a
| foregrounding of the constructiveness of language, of the denial of
| language as a transparent medium, tho' that's old hat now, too.
|
| If you want pre-occupation with self, you need to go back to Wordsworth,
| Shelley, etc.  Even Romanticism, though, wasn't the start.  John Donne,
| championed by TSE, master of the impersonal, is always writing about
| himself!
| French Symbolism, too, was a hyperRomantic movement, interested in the
| self above almost all else.  Eliot was schooled at the knees of these.
| (Frenchies).
|
| In F.R. Leavis' "New Bearings in English Poetry," Eliot is praised for
| his supposed impersonality, but when Leavis praises specific passages
| and comments on them, he chooses those in which the poet seems to be
| dealing with "personal" (that is, personal to TSE) matter.
|
| *
|
| I agree that "Prufrock" is one of the two or three best poems in the
| English language--at least in this past century.
|
| I find most of the rest of Eliot a deadly bore.
|
| Just some thoughts.
|
| Tony
|
|
|
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 16:04:01 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:04:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody/correction
References: <6.2be0d9c0.2e033e3f@cs.com> <019801c4549f$aca2a510$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <01b501c454a6$3dff91c0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Correction follows.  I wish I could stop making idiotic typoes.


Here is something forwarded from Michael Donaghy:


Dear All,

I thought this would amuse those of you who have an ear - or for that matter anyone who passed freshman English and knows what iambic pentameter sounds like. In "JANUS-FACED BLOCKBUSTER", a review of Cary Nelson's Anthology of Modern American Poetry on her website, Marjorie Perloff, who styles herself an authority on prosody, quotes these lines by the African-American poet Georgia Douglas Johnson (written in 1918) :

The heart of a woman goes forth with the dawn
As a lone bird, soft winging, so restlessly on;
Afar o?er life?s turrets and vales does it roam
In the wake of those echoes the heart calls home.
The heart of a woman falls back with the night,
And enters some alien cage in its plight,
And tires to forget it has dreamed of the stars
While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)

Tuts Madge, ?These chug-chug iambic pentameter stanzas rhyming aabb remind one of a Hallmark card? 

Hey, at least credit Perloff with that ZINGILY original "Hallmark" jab!

--Bob G.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 16:07:48 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:07:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <016201c453e3$64f50f80$55efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV496SJM7D2X000093f2@hotmail.com>

See my post to Tony, Bob.  Thanks for reading.

I'll reprint the part that seemed to confuse you, or rather, that I didn't
put clearly enough!

Like most essays, the real point comes near the end.

"Take Blake's lyrical power, add Dante's directness and everyman appeal,
and I submit you have a poetry that might attract a larger audience than
current fare.

"To elaborate, one might call me an advocate of a more epigrammatic
poetry, a poetry of compressed power utilizing all the accumulated
weapons of formalism and symbolism, employing Chinese lucidity and
Dantean accessibility, a poetry strong enough to muscle aside,
perhaps, for a moment, the information overload that constantly
attends those who might otherwise be tempted to actually sample
contemporary poetry.

"Their (such poems') chief measure of success should be quotability,
as only phrases that actually enter the language enjoy
the highest poetic immortality."

--CE

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| > "Towards a New Direction in Poetry."
|
| Needless to say, CE, the title of your essay intrigued me.  When I read
it,
| though, I couldn't figure out what you were recommending as "a new
| direction."  Directness in poetry?  But surely dozens of poets throughout
| the previous century pushed directness.  Williams.  Bukowski.  Gioia.
|
| I only skimmed your essay, so there's a good chance I missed something.
| (I'm rushing everything today--got a lotta things to do.  Plan to go back
to
| your essay.  Also finally finish your Eliot essay one of these days.  But
so
| too much to do all the time.)
|
| I wonder if I'd ever suggest a new direction for poetry.  I think poetry
has
| all the directions it needs.  I only call for the proper recognition of
the
| few that are being ignored.
|
| --Bob G.
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Jun 17 16:15:19 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:15:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV28QDSZGogg00012f5e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c454a7$da1e31a0$c0341c40@Emily>

Hey CE,

I wasn't trying to engage in debate--at least not the sort that Grumman
& Bales used to seem to enjoy, much to the chagrin of the rest of us.

I just wonder why so many poets (self-described dinosaurs or not) are SO
CONCERNED with what other people (that is poets they don't like) are
doing.  It's almost as if group A considers group B a threat---ha!  This
is poetry, not the Television.  Your Nielsen ratings here will stay the
same: miniscule.

In any case, I know that you aren't primarily involved with tearing down
other poets (that's the job of the insufferable Joan Houlihan), but in
recent years (okay, the years I've been a practicing poet--about 7 now)
I have read countless essays, interviews, creeds, manifestoes, etc.
about how good, plain, "regular," poetry is under siege by rabid packs
of experimentalists.  There doesn't seem to be an equivalent movement
among the "experimental" poets. (Unless you count Ron Silliman and his
harping about the School of Quietude as a one-man movement.  I suppose
Grumman's dismissal of anything not "new" and "innovative" would count,
too...but that's two compared to dozens.)

And I agree with you that poetry that enters the language achieves the
greatest distinction, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?
If it doesn't enter the language, most people haven't read it, or won't.
The statement is a bit self-evident.  All this said, we have no idea
what will or won't be in the Norton 50, 100, 200 years from now.  I'm
always amused when someone bemoans the lack of "Great" poetry being
published now.  How the heck do you know??  The only reason we think
poems are great is because an anthologist tells us so years later.  But
I think that also goes without saying (and I'm sure there are plenty who
disagree with me).

Thanks for posting the interview.

Tony





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jun 17 16:25:08 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:25:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <033101c454a9$2f2b2760$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I agree, it is personal. About Dante there are some other things, but I
understand where you wanted to lead us, and the end is almost perfect.


From: "The Old Mole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:22 AM


> Nice interview. Thanks for the link.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 4:58 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
>
>
> > For any interested, _Tryst_ magazine has a feature on me with a new
essay,
> > "Towards a New Direction in Poetry."
> >
> > http://www.tryst3.com/issue9/contents.html
> >
> > The site's a little hard to navigate and is copyright protected, so I
> > couldn't supply a direct link to the essay, which was my intention.
> >
> > To get to the essay, click on "feature," then go to the bottom of the
> > interview and click on "essay."
> >
> > The formatting of the essay could use some help.  And it wasn't I who
put
> > the references in for the well-known quotes at the end of it-- that was
> the
> > editor's doing, and rather defeated my purpose in illustrating
> > "quotability," although she apparently couldn't recognize the line by
> > cummings.
> >
> > There's also a long interview, which I would spare you, but from which I
> > offer this excerpt:
> >
> > Mia: "Is there anything else you'd like to discuss that I didn't cover
> > adequately or not mentioned here?"
> >
> > CE: "Jeez, isn't this enough? When I read interviews with poets I'm
> usually
> > bored, especially when they talk about their own work. Let's give your
> > readers a break (if any of them had the patience to read this far).  And
> > thanks for having me."
> >
> > There's also eleven poems, some old, some new, with a great picture of
my
> > daughter and grandson beside them.
> >
> > That's my favorite part-- the picture, I mean!
> >
> >
> > --CE
> >
> > p.s. Detroit was the better team and I was very happy for Larry Brown.
> Even
> > dreamed of him last night and we had a good talk.  And Derek Fisher's
> > concession was a class act.
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jun 17 16:42:50 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:42:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000201c454a7$da1e31a0$c0341c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <034901c454ab$a8d245b0$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

This is a very old argument. I remember several years (decades) ago there
was all that story with the Lagarde & Michard anthologies  in France, an
eternal struggle (I have no idea but it is France tonight) among the
painters to step in _the Acad?mie_ (mainly beautiful XVIIth-XVIIIth century
landscapes), if you belonged to the Acad?mie then you could live as a
painter, otherwise you starved as French painters know how to starve.

But you are saying something here which I do not particularly like as you
put it down:

_The only reason we think
poems are great is because an anthologist tells us so years later. _

This is partly true. Our reading is not a separate sector in our lives.
Reading, painting, eating, speaking, working, everything is connected and
forms a texture which is me in this moment. The anthologized poems I read
years ago are somehow me, be they good or not. The best ones receive my
further appraisal, others I will try to forget.

So yes, this is why people fight to be part of anthologies, because they end
up being more loved than others.

Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:15 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


> Hey CE,
>
> I wasn't trying to engage in debate--at least not the sort that Grumman
> & Bales used to seem to enjoy, much to the chagrin of the rest of us.
>
> I just wonder why so many poets (self-described dinosaurs or not) are SO
> CONCERNED with what other people (that is poets they don't like) are
> doing.  It's almost as if group A considers group B a threat---ha!  This
> is poetry, not the Television.  Your Nielsen ratings here will stay the
> same: miniscule.
>
> In any case, I know that you aren't primarily involved with tearing down
> other poets (that's the job of the insufferable Joan Houlihan), but in
> recent years (okay, the years I've been a practicing poet--about 7 now)
> I have read countless essays, interviews, creeds, manifestoes, etc.
> about how good, plain, "regular," poetry is under siege by rabid packs
> of experimentalists.  There doesn't seem to be an equivalent movement
> among the "experimental" poets. (Unless you count Ron Silliman and his
> harping about the School of Quietude as a one-man movement.  I suppose
> Grumman's dismissal of anything not "new" and "innovative" would count,
> too...but that's two compared to dozens.)
>
> And I agree with you that poetry that enters the language achieves the
> greatest distinction, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?
> If it doesn't enter the language, most people haven't read it, or won't.
> The statement is a bit self-evident.  All this said, we have no idea
> what will or won't be in the Norton 50, 100, 200 years from now.  I'm
> always amused when someone bemoans the lack of "Great" poetry being
> published now.  How the heck do you know??  The only reason we think
> poems are great is because an anthologist tells us so years later.  But
> I think that also goes without saying (and I'm sure there are plenty who
> disagree with me).
>
> Thanks for posting the interview.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Jun 17 10:04:28 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:04:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
In-Reply-To: <6.2be0d9c0.2e033e3f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BCF70F1C.6922%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 6/17/04 1:34 PM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> Here is something forwarded from Michael Donaghy:
> 
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> I thought this would amuse those of you who have an ear - or for that matter
> anyone who passed freshman English and knows what iambic pentameter sounds
> like. In "JANUS-FACED BLOCKBUSTER", a review of Cary Nelson's Anthology of
> Modern American Poetry on her website, Marjorie Perloff, who styles herself an
> authority on prosody, quotes these lines by the African-American poet Georgia
> Douglas Johnson (written in 1918) :
> 
> The heart of a woman goes forth with the dawn
> As a lone bird, soft winging, so restlessly on;
> Afar o?er life?s turrets and vales does it roam
> In the wake of those echoes the heart calls home.
> The heart of a woman falls back with the night,
> And enters some alien cage in its plight,
> And tires to forget it has dreamed of the stars
> While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)
> 
> Tuts Madge, ?These chug-chug iambic pentameter stanzas rhyming aabb remind one
> of a Hallmark card?
> 
> 
> 
> Now don?t go telling everyone.
> 
> 
> All the Best,
> Michael 

Perloff knew enough about meter to name the meters of some of Yeats?s poems
in what was probably her first book, but her reading of Johnson?s poem above
seems to show that spending too much time with language poetry has deranged
her.

Paul Lake
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From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Jun 17 17:15:14 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:15:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
Message-ID: <7542322.1087506914525.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, June 17, 2004, at 10:04AM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

>
>Perloff knew enough about meter to name the meters of some of Yeats?s poems in what was probably >her first book, but her reading of Johnson?s poem above seems to show that spending too much time >with language poetry has deranged her.

I think that's it. In "Poetics of the America," Charles Bernstein calls this Claude McKay line pentameter:   

Just to view de homeland England, in de streets of London walk  

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 18:14:23 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:14:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000201c454a7$da1e31a0$c0341c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <020301c454b8$73cee0f0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Nice series of non-arguments, Tony.  I think you have me wrong (as unsual),
but I'm not getting into that, again.

One comment, though: I wonder why so few poets are willing to try to
elaborate on what they want and don't want from poetry--regardless of the
Nielsen ratings they achieve as a result--and be willing to risk the chagrin
of the docile by defending their points of view.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 18:16:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:16:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <033101c454a9$2f2b2760$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <021301c454b8$cb530db0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I agree, it is personal. About Dante there are some other things

Like the fact that he was (sorry, CE) the most vindictive, intolerant,
sadistic little man in the history of poetry?

--Bob G.




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 18:29:20 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:29:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000201c454a7$da1e31a0$c0341c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV21mvgt9iPP000395ef@hotmail.com>

Good points all, Tony.

I suppose my concern is that since the Moderns, there has not been a great
wave of outstanding poetry.  Pound, Eliot, Neruda, you know the names-- I
don't find much since then nearly as amazing-- it was like what happened to
music in the 60s-- a gift of history.

"The Waste Land" was published in 1922, and E & P's example and early
"Imagist" tag caused a revolution, but it was more than that.  It was the
time.  They threw a stone.

I guess I've been waiting over 80 years for something similar (as a reader!
I'm not that old-- my body just feels that way).

I am not concerned with what others write, I'm concerned about a future
readership for poetry.  So I mused about what kind of poetry might address
the intelligent reader who studiously avoids poetry.

When I talk to educated people of my generation many actually fear poetry
because "it makes them feel stupid."  I guess that bothers me some.

I'm not smart or gifted enough to start a revolution like E & P or the
Romantics, but there can be changes in the current of poetry's history made
by the right stone in the right place.  I threw mine in, probably won't make
a ripple.  Lots of others have tried, as you pointed out, but I think my
call for "power lyrics" not terribly programmatic.  It's not a call against
dilatory narratives or visual or formal poets, although I suppose it
acknowledges that rhyme and rhythm certainly can contribute to power and
quotability.

I'm not telling people to write a certain way.  I'm speculating that if we
did write in a certain way, would it make poetry more of a voice in our
current sound-bite culture?  Again, probably not.  But one can dream.

So Melic #25 (Dec.) will attempt to be a "power lyric" issue.  Submissions
open July 1.  www.melicreview.com melicreview at hotmail.com

You're all invited to submit!

--CE



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| Hey CE,
|
| I wasn't trying to engage in debate--at least not the sort that Grumman
| & Bales used to seem to enjoy, much to the chagrin of the rest of us.
|
| I just wonder why so many poets (self-described dinosaurs or not) are SO
| CONCERNED with what other people (that is poets they don't like) are
| doing.  It's almost as if group A considers group B a threat---ha!  This
| is poetry, not the Television.  Your Nielsen ratings here will stay the
| same: miniscule.
|
| In any case, I know that you aren't primarily involved with tearing down
| other poets (that's the job of the insufferable Joan Houlihan), but in
| recent years (okay, the years I've been a practicing poet--about 7 now)
| I have read countless essays, interviews, creeds, manifestoes, etc.
| about how good, plain, "regular," poetry is under siege by rabid packs
| of experimentalists.  There doesn't seem to be an equivalent movement
| among the "experimental" poets. (Unless you count Ron Silliman and his
| harping about the School of Quietude as a one-man movement.  I suppose
| Grumman's dismissal of anything not "new" and "innovative" would count,
| too...but that's two compared to dozens.)
|
| And I agree with you that poetry that enters the language achieves the
| greatest distinction, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?
| If it doesn't enter the language, most people haven't read it, or won't.
| The statement is a bit self-evident.  All this said, we have no idea
| what will or won't be in the Norton 50, 100, 200 years from now.  I'm
| always amused when someone bemoans the lack of "Great" poetry being
| published now.  How the heck do you know??  The only reason we think
| poems are great is because an anthologist tells us so years later.  But
| I think that also goes without saying (and I'm sure there are plenty who
| disagree with me).
|
| Thanks for posting the interview.
|
| Tony
|
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 18:37:39 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:37:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <033101c454a9$2f2b2760$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <021301c454b8$cb530db0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV39zov8WCpC000396b4@hotmail.com>

Oh, Bob, I consider this a softball.

What does biography have to do with judging art?

I could give you a long list of names of poets/artists whose work I admire-- 
whose private lives don't give them a chance of baby-sitting my children.

I'll never forget that Sylvia gassed herself without taking adequate
precautions for her two young children.  But I love her work, she's truly an
original, a genius, even.  And I don't use that word lightly.

OK, I'll stop here.  Like Tony says, I don't want to get into a debate-- 
especially with Bob G.!

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| > I agree, it is personal. About Dante there are some other things
|
| Like the fact that he was (sorry, CE) the most vindictive, intolerant,
| sadistic little man in the history of poetry?
|
| --Bob G.
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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|


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun 17 19:19:26 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:19:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
Message-ID: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/17/2004 6:18:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Like the fact that he was (sorry, CE) the most vindictive, intolerant,
> sadistic little man in the history of poetry?

Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
too late for DA.

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun 17 19:47:26 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:47:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
Message-ID: <a3.5bffb5ea.2e03878e@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/17/2004 2:36:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> The heart of a woman goes forth with the dawn
> As a lone bird, soft winging, so restlessly on;
> Afar o?er life?s turrets and vales does it roam
> In the wake of those echoes the heart calls home.
> The heart of a woman falls back with the night,
> And enters some alien cage in its plight,
> And tires to forget it has dreamed of the stars
> While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)
> 
> Tuts Madge, ?These chug-chug iambic pentameter stanzas rhyming aabb remind 
> one of a Hallmark card? 
> 
> 

I don't believe in affirmative action for poetry, but my god
don't you have to acknowledge those 7 lines as an extraordinary
passage, esp. from 1918 (barely the Modernist era), by a 
"negro writer" as the critics of the period were wont to say.
(That's a typo in penultimate line: "tries"?)
Finnegan
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Jun 17 19:54:36 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:54:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
In-Reply-To: <a3.5bffb5ea.2e03878e@aol.com>
References: <a3.5bffb5ea.2e03878e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040617185252.A37519@kpaul.spinweb.net>

*nods in agreement* ...

the fact we're talking about (via email in an age far removed from when it 
was written) this poem, is testament somewhat to the fact it is 'good' 
poetry.

  -kpaul
http://www.mallasch.com/mug/

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/17/2004 2:36:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
>
>> The heart of a woman goes forth with the dawn
>> As a lone bird, soft winging, so restlessly on;
>> Afar o???er life???s turrets and vales does it roam
>> In the wake of those echoes the heart calls home.
>> The heart of a woman falls back with the night,
>> And enters some alien cage in its plight,
>> And tires to forget it has dreamed of the stars
>> While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)
>>
>> Tuts Madge, ???These chug-chug iambic pentameter stanzas rhyming aabb remind
>> one of a Hallmark card???
>>
>>
>
> I don't believe in affirmative action for poetry, but my god
> don't you have to acknowledge those 7 lines as an extraordinary
> passage, esp. from 1918 (barely the Modernist era), by a
> "negro writer" as the critics of the period were wont to say.
> (That's a typo in penultimate line: "tries"?)
> Finnegan
>

From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Jun 17 20:01:35 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:01:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Links help request
In-Reply-To: <02b901c4548d$4bd8fc50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <02b901c4548d$4bd8fc50$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <AA1262EE-C0BA-11D8-8D08-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Jun 17, 2004, at 1:05 PM, The Old Mole wrote:

> I've - with a screwup or two along the way - changed the address of my 
> website, and because I screwed it up so thoroughly in the process, I'm 
> trying to make sure that whatever browsers care about such things are 
> pointing to the correct new one. I'm hoping to get enough links and 
> hits to the right URL to gradually squeeze out the wrong ones.
> ?
> ?
> ?
> So...could anyone who currently links to my site please change the 
> link? The new one is
> ?
> www.opus40.org/tadrichards
> ?
> And would anyone who has a site with links, but doesn't include me, 
> please consider linking to me?


Done, at my Formal Blog and Sonnetarium,  
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 20:15:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:15:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <033101c454a9$2f2b2760$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <021301c454b8$cb530db0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV39zov8WCpC000396b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <027901c454c9$5abe09e0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Oh, Bob, I consider this a softball.
>
> What does biography have to do with judging art?

Nothing, unless a vindictive, intolerant, sadistic little man writes a poem
expressing those traits of his, as Dante did.

--Bob G.




From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Jun 17 20:24:27 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:24:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV39zov8WCpC000396b4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c454ca$a8577f50$303c1c40@Emily>

CE wrote:

>What does biography have to do with judging art?

Well, it *can* have a lot to do with how we read or receive a work of
art. I don't think it's particularly useful in determining whether
something is objectively "good" or "bad," but it certainly plays a part
in our reading of a poem--it can give us information that the poem
cannot.  Kenneth Burke has a lot to say on this topic in (I think) "The
Philosophy of Literary Form," though the reading is slow-going, as Burke
strikes me as perhaps simultaneously one of the most brilliant *and*
disorganized thinkers about poetry of the 20th century.

Tony

  



From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Jun 17 20:24:27 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:24:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV21mvgt9iPP000395ef@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000101c454ca$aa8c87c0$303c1c40@Emily>

CE wrote:

"I am not concerned with what others write, I'm concerned about a future
readership for poetry.  So I mused about what kind of poetry might
address
the intelligent reader who studiously avoids poetry."

I share this concern, but am not particularly worried about my (or
anyone's) part in ensuring a future for poetry.  There will always be
poets, and always readers of poetry.  There are more poets now than
ever.  The reason it seems that there are so many intelligent readers
who studiously avoid poetry is that there are so many different forms of
cultural production vying for attention.  If more "common" people read
poetry 100 years ago, it's because newspapers and "mainstream" magazines
printed it; it's because it didn't have television or films or recorded,
downloadable pop music to compete with. There are simply more options.
I don't mean to reduce poetry to "merely entertainment" here. I just
want to point to what I think might be part of the "problem" (if it is a
problem).  We also might want to reexamine how poetry is taught in
public K12 schools and in colleges.  Does the average intelligent reader
think poetry is difficult because it IS?  Or is it taught in a way that
makes it seem mysterious and difficult?

Tony



From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Jun 17 20:24:27 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:24:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV21mvgt9iPP000395ef@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c454ca$ad4bf5e0$303c1c40@Emily>

Thanks for the discussion, all.

Now here's where it could get interesting.  C.E. laments the lack of
"outstanding poetry" written today. Being not quite as old as C.E. (and
perhaps less pessimistic), I believe that "great" poetry is out there,
being written by someone(s); I think the difficulty is deciding what's
great in the absence of any objective standard for poetry greatness.
Time will sort out these problems long after most of us are dead, but
how do we find even "good" poetry now?

My proposal is this:  each person who desires can post the names of 3-5
currenly living and writing poets whom he or she believes to be "good."
Not "Great" (unless you know of some great poets) but good.  Poets whose
work you always read when it appears in a journal, whose books you
eagerly await, etc.

If you can't come up with 3-5, maybe that proves C.E.'s point. Maybe
not.  But it might be a fun way to introduce list members to poets we
admire, esp. lesser-known poets.

Anyone game?

Tony




From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Jun 17 20:24:27 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:24:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <021301c454b8$cb530db0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000301c454ca$b78f3800$303c1c40@Emily>

Bob,

Sorry if I offended--am not trying to get into it with you. You should
know that I bear you no ill will, nor have in the past. I've been on
this list for several years, and I've come to admire you, though, like
others, I often feel that you take cheap shots at any poem that isn't
"burstnorm" or "innovative."  That's all.
 
As for my other crack--come on, aren't you happier since you and Bales
quit arguing? I'm doing a lot less deleting.

*

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying what one wants from
poetry, but such declarations are usually presented in such a way as to
exclude the possibility of OTHER types of poetry, i.e. "my way is the
best/only way, your way sucks."  

I can't (at least at this point in my relatively young life) tell you
"what I want" from poetry because it's not one thing, or one set of
guidelines.  I find myriad pleasures in poetry of all types, schools,
etc.  Perhaps when I get older (and wiser, more discriminating,
what-have-you) my taste will narrow.  I expect that it will.  But I
hope I won't start writing essays that slam poetry that no longer
appeals to me.  Life's too short.  


Tony





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 20:47:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:47:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02a501c454cd$e1caa700$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
too late for DA.

http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv 

Phooey, I only made it to the fourth level of Hell.  I think I should have been awarded sixth.

--Bad Robert
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 20:54:25 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:54:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000101c454ca$aa8c87c0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV60MriHLKcP00039927@hotmail.com>

I didn't recommend anyone to read the interview, but some did.

In it I recommended parents reading poetry to their children before school,
at early verbal acquisition.

Then one can only hope for an English teacher along the way who can
re-introduce it in a way not to turn them off from their early joy.

I think Bob G. should write about why _Good Night, Moon_ remains so
eternally popular with young children.  The pictures are great, but the
lyricism is as well.  It has some kind of magic that I wish I could
reproduce in my own work.  Then I'm beginning to sound like a Romantic.

I guess my fascination with Eliot has something to do with that.  He was a
classicist who nevertheless had a knack for choosing images that bring us
back to our earliest consciousness.  In the 60s, American criticism had a
big debate about whether Eliot was a Romantic or a Classicist, and leaned
toward the former.  I accept the latter from his own mouth, but he still has
that sting of recollection for an idealized childhood that the Romantics so
exploited.

Oh, I forgot most of Eliot bores you.... but maybe, just maybe, you'll come
to like _Four Quartets_ later in life.  They always blow me away, and I'm
working towards them in my essays on Eliot.  Right now I'm deep in "Ash
Wednesday," admittedly not his best poem.  But certainly worth reading, if
you forgive the doggerel of Part V.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| CE wrote:
|
| "I am not concerned with what others write, I'm concerned about a future
| readership for poetry.  So I mused about what kind of poetry might
| address
| the intelligent reader who studiously avoids poetry."
|
| I share this concern, but am not particularly worried about my (or
| anyone's) part in ensuring a future for poetry.  There will always be
| poets, and always readers of poetry.  There are more poets now than
| ever.  The reason it seems that there are so many intelligent readers
| who studiously avoid poetry is that there are so many different forms of
| cultural production vying for attention.  If more "common" people read
| poetry 100 years ago, it's because newspapers and "mainstream" magazines
| printed it; it's because it didn't have television or films or recorded,
| downloadable pop music to compete with. There are simply more options.
| I don't mean to reduce poetry to "merely entertainment" here. I just
| want to point to what I think might be part of the "problem" (if it is a
| problem).  We also might want to reexamine how poetry is taught in
| public K12 schools and in colleges.  Does the average intelligent reader
| think poetry is difficult because it IS?  Or is it taught in a way that
| makes it seem mysterious and difficult?
|
| Tony
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 20:58:07 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:58:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dante.....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <033101c454a9$2f2b2760$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <021301c454b8$cb530db0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV39zov8WCpC000396b4@hotmail.com> <027901c454c9$5abe09e0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV33FkuutSgc0000db35@hotmail.com>

Bob,

Even for you, this is a bit extreme.

Have you ever read J. Huizinga on the Middle Ages?

It may be you judge Dante anachronistically; the contradictions of that
magical and passionate age were a matter of course.

Imagine living in Florence in the 14th century, being praised, then banned,
almost killed, and leaving your beloved city to try to find some peace of
mind in the middle of life?

I think you need to walk a little more in medieval shoes.

Huizinga's a good place to start, but C. S. Lewis makes it easier.

Just a thought,

CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| > Oh, Bob, I consider this a softball.
| >
| > What does biography have to do with judging art?
|
| Nothing, unless a vindictive, intolerant, sadistic little man writes a
poem
| expressing those traits of his, as Dante did.
|
| --Bob G.
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Jun 17 21:05:05 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:05:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com>
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <88DF8C60-C0C3-11D8-960B-000A95E985A4@mac.com>

On Jun 17, 2004, at 7:19 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

>  Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
>  too late for DA.
>
>  http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

a virtuous pagan!  "You share company with Caesar, Homer, Virgil, 
Socrates, and Aristotle."



From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 21:09:47 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:09:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <000201c454ca$ad4bf5e0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV31hrOBDQnD0000e0dd@hotmail.com>

Great question, Tony.

I would like to say, however, it was the explosion of the Moderns that I
wish would recur in some form.  The Balkanization of poetry, as Bloom terms
it, begs the question.  Even the Beat/Confessionalist explosion exceeds
anything since, IMHO.

Milosz is still living, so I can list him, even if he's not really writing
anymore in his 90s.

I'll always respect Strand, but I thought his _Blizzard of One_ much
inferior to his earlier work.  But he was old enough and still good enough
to win the Pulitzer for it, just as Levine won it for _Mercy_.  Such awards
remind me of John Wayne getting an Oscar for _True Grit_ when he was dying
of cancer.  Hayden Carruth wasn't recognized much until he was nearly 60,
and writes about it in his poems.

Milosz, Strand... Alright, Szymborska, too.  But they're all too old to
really be in the running for your question.

We've featured a poet probably no one's heard of in our magazine twice,
Scott Murphy, whose poetry I always look forward to, but he doesn't appear
anywhere you might come across, and I've essentially lost contact with him,
although I think him a very noteworthy poet.  Anyone interested can check
the search engine at www.melicreview.com for his work.

In other words, you've stumped me.  I prefer the sure hand of one I know is
good, like Larkin, than trying to slog through the latest by the latest.
Saves time, although it makes me a bit ignorant for participation in this
list.

--CE





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| Thanks for the discussion, all.
|
| Now here's where it could get interesting.  C.E. laments the lack of
| "outstanding poetry" written today. Being not quite as old as C.E. (and
| perhaps less pessimistic), I believe that "great" poetry is out there,
| being written by someone(s); I think the difficulty is deciding what's
| great in the absence of any objective standard for poetry greatness.
| Time will sort out these problems long after most of us are dead, but
| how do we find even "good" poetry now?
|
| My proposal is this:  each person who desires can post the names of 3-5
| currenly living and writing poets whom he or she believes to be "good."
| Not "Great" (unless you know of some great poets) but good.  Poets whose
| work you always read when it appears in a journal, whose books you
| eagerly await, etc.
|
| If you can't come up with 3-5, maybe that proves C.E.'s point. Maybe
| not.  But it might be a fun way to introduce list members to poets we
| admire, esp. lesser-known poets.
|
| Anyone game?
|
| Tony
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Jun 17 21:09:35 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:09:35 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV60MriHLKcP00039927@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901c454d0$fd72dab0$303c1c40@Emily>

CE,

Just because Eliot bores me doesn't mean I haven't read him. He is, by
his own admission and critical writings, a classicist.  However, his
best bits of poetry (Prufrock, for example) seem thoroughly romantic to
me.

And I did read the interview--that's why we're having this discussion!

Tony




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 21:14:46 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:14:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] To Anny: anthologies
References: <000201c454a7$da1e31a0$c0341c40@Emily> <034901c454ab$a8d245b0$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV35LpgTFur2000396e6@hotmail.com>

Dear Anny,

Good point.  You might enjoy my essay about anthologies, "The Top Ten Poets
(in English)"

http://www.melicreview.com/archive/iss14/cechaffin.html

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| This is a very old argument. I remember several years (decades) ago there
| was all that story with the Lagarde & Michard anthologies  in France, an
| eternal struggle (I have no idea but it is France tonight) among the
| painters to step in _the Acad?mie_ (mainly beautiful XVIIth-XVIIIth
century
| landscapes), if you belonged to the Acad?mie then you could live as a
| painter, otherwise you starved as French painters know how to starve.
|
| But you are saying something here which I do not particularly like as you
| put it down:
|
| _The only reason we think
| poems are great is because an anthologist tells us so years later. _
|
| This is partly true. Our reading is not a separate sector in our lives.
| Reading, painting, eating, speaking, working, everything is connected and
| forms a texture which is me in this moment. The anthologized poems I read
| years ago are somehow me, be they good or not. The best ones receive my
| further appraisal, others I will try to forget.
|
| So yes, this is why people fight to be part of anthologies, because they
end
| up being more loved than others.
|
| Anny
|
| ----- Original Message ----- 
| From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
| To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
| Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:15 PM
| Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
|
|
| > Hey CE,
| >
| > I wasn't trying to engage in debate--at least not the sort that Grumman
| > & Bales used to seem to enjoy, much to the chagrin of the rest of us.
| >
| > I just wonder why so many poets (self-described dinosaurs or not) are SO
| > CONCERNED with what other people (that is poets they don't like) are
| > doing.  It's almost as if group A considers group B a threat---ha!  This
| > is poetry, not the Television.  Your Nielsen ratings here will stay the
| > same: miniscule.
| >
| > In any case, I know that you aren't primarily involved with tearing down
| > other poets (that's the job of the insufferable Joan Houlihan), but in
| > recent years (okay, the years I've been a practicing poet--about 7 now)
| > I have read countless essays, interviews, creeds, manifestoes, etc.
| > about how good, plain, "regular," poetry is under siege by rabid packs
| > of experimentalists.  There doesn't seem to be an equivalent movement
| > among the "experimental" poets. (Unless you count Ron Silliman and his
| > harping about the School of Quietude as a one-man movement.  I suppose
| > Grumman's dismissal of anything not "new" and "innovative" would count,
| > too...but that's two compared to dozens.)
| >
| > And I agree with you that poetry that enters the language achieves the
| > greatest distinction, but that sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?
| > If it doesn't enter the language, most people haven't read it, or won't.
| > The statement is a bit self-evident.  All this said, we have no idea
| > what will or won't be in the Norton 50, 100, 200 years from now.  I'm
| > always amused when someone bemoans the lack of "Great" poetry being
| > published now.  How the heck do you know??  The only reason we think
| > poems are great is because an anthologist tells us so years later.  But
| > I think that also goes without saying (and I'm sure there are plenty who
| > disagree with me).
| >
| > Thanks for posting the interview.
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > New-Poetry mailing list
| > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| >
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From sbmontana at gmail.com  Thu Jun 17 21:24:48 2004
From: sbmontana at gmail.com (Sharon Brogan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:24:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosody
In-Reply-To: <20040617185252.A37519@kpaul.spinweb.net>
References: <a3.5bffb5ea.2e03878e@aol.com> <20040617185252.A37519@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <9095266e040617182471316b4e@mail.gmail.com>

>> While it breaks, breaks, breaks, on the sheltering bars. (1918)

better than good

-- 
Sharon Brogan 
http://www.sbpoet.com


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 17 21:29:35 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:29:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Dante test....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <02a501c454cd$e1caa700$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV62ifMH2knF000398d7@hotmail.com>

I'm really a dinosaur, I guess.

I made it to Purgatory!

--CE
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....



  Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
  too late for DA.

  http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv 

  Phooey, I only made it to the fourth level of Hell.  I think I should have been awarded sixth.

  --Bad Rober
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 22:00:35 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:00:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000301c454ca$b78f3800$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <02d101c454d8$0e4cf490$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Bob,
>
> Sorry if I offended--am not trying to get into it with you. You should
> know that I bear you no ill will, nor have in the past. I've been on
> this list for several years, and I've come to admire you, though, like
> others, I often feel that you take cheap shots at any poem that isn't
> "burstnorm" or "innovative."  That's all.

Right, but I wish you could say, "I SOMETIMES feel you take cheap shots at
poems that are not burstnorm or innovative."

> As for my other crack--come on, aren't you happier since you and Bales
> quit arguing? I'm doing a lot less deleting.


That was a special case that I won't get into--except to say that it did
several times annoy me into improving positions or my defense of them, which

> *
>
> I don't think there's anything wrong with saying what one wants from
> poetry, but such declarations are usually presented in such a way as to
> exclude the possibility of OTHER types of poetry, i.e. "my way is the
> best/only way, your way sucks."

I really think you read that into what is said.  I'll also admit that I do
get carried away at times.

> I can't (at least at this point in my relatively young life) tell you
> "what I want" from poetry because it's not one thing, or one set of
> guidelines.  I find myriad pleasures in poetry of all types, schools,
> etc.  Perhaps when I get older (and wiser, more discriminating,
> what-have-you) my taste will narrow.  I expect that it will.  But I
> hope I won't start writing essays that slam poetry that no longer
> appeals to me.  Life's too short.

Ah, you don't think criticism might help a poor poet become a good poet?
Not that that's the only reason I ever slam a poem.  Another reason is to
clear the way for what I deem good poetry.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 22:17:14 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:17:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dante.....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <033101c454a9$2f2b2760$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <021301c454b8$cb530db0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV39zov8WCpC000396b4@hotmail.com> <027901c454c9$5abe09e0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV33FkuutSgc0000db35@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02e701c454da$60e9b830$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Sorry, CE, can't go with excusing it on his times.  So his age was vile and
his poem expressed his age.  I don't care.  Sure, maybe I would have been
worse if I'd lived then.  Maybe posterity will judge me to have been worse
even though living in this age.  In either case, I wouldn't excuse myself,
either.

Boccaccio, by the way, was that long after Dante and wrote much more
healthy-minded material.  I can't believe that all the Italian poets of
Dante's time wrote everyone they didn't like into eternal damnation in their
works (and had as many enemies as Dante).

--Bob G.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dante.....


> Bob,
>
> Even for you, this is a bit extreme.
>
> Have you ever read J. Huizinga on the Middle Ages?
>
> It may be you judge Dante anachronistically; the contradictions of that
> magical and passionate age were a matter of course.
>
> Imagine living in Florence in the 14th century, being praised, then
banned,
> almost killed, and leaving your beloved city to try to find some peace of
> mind in the middle of life?
>
> I think you need to walk a little more in medieval shoes.
>
> Huizinga's a good place to start, but C. S. Lewis makes it easier.
>
> Just a thought,
>
> CE
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
>
>
> | > Oh, Bob, I consider this a softball.
> | >
> | > What does biography have to do with judging art?
> |
> | Nothing, unless a vindictive, intolerant, sadistic little man writes a
> poem
> | expressing those traits of his, as Dante did.
> |
> | --Bob G.
> |
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | New-Poetry mailing list
> | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> |
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 22:21:42 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:21:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <000201c454ca$ad4bf5e0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <02f001c454db$00812090$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> My proposal is this:  each person who desires can post the names of 3-5
> currenly living and writing poets whom he or she believes to be "good."
> Not "Great" (unless you know of some great poets) but good.  Poets whose
> work you always read when it appears in a journal, whose books you
> eagerly await, etc.

Well, I co-edited an anthology of visual poetry that contained the work of
twelve poets, all of whom I consider good, and 3 to 5 very possibly major
poets (and I don't consider many poets major) but won't name because I'd
just as soon not offend a friend by not naming him, etc.  A second volume of
the anthology is nearly ready for publication, and it also has twelve (or
so) poets in it I consider good, and a few who may well be major.  I feel
absolutely sure that at least 3 with work in the two volumes will be
considered major in 30 or 40 years, if not sooner.  Only one I'm almost
certain of, then 6 or 7 with a shot.  Luck is involved, plus some I think
original may have been influenced by others I don't know about.

I have a list of people for a third volume, and they're equal to the ones
already in.

Then there are the language poets.  Clark Coolidge is major, I'm sure.
There are others, but I'm not familiar enough with language poetry to be
sure.  I can't believe that a school so different from other schools and
with so many poets in it would not have produce several major poets.

Certainly there are strong knownstream poets, too: Anthony Hecht, Richard
Wilbur . . . I know there are others, but I can't think of them.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 22:27:48 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:27:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] To Anny: anthologies
References: <000201c454a7$da1e31a0$c0341c40@Emily> <034901c454ab$a8d245b0$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <BAY18-DAV35LpgTFur2000396e6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02fa01c454db$db02c7a0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your list, CE, but won't get into mine.
Just wanted to say that I would not include Shakespeare in my top ten.  He
was a dramatist.  His poetry isn't that terrific, as far as I'm
concerned--except for a few sonnets, and a few songs from the plays.

--Bob G.




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jun 18 03:12:47 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:12:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

They will have to chop me up to fit four levels:

Level 5 - Wrathful and Gloomy
Level 6 - Heretics
Level 7 - Violent
Level 8 - Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers

with a Very High danger to get also to the Level 2 - Lustful (I might have skipped a question there); and Level 9 - Treacherous!

And yes Bob G. I didn't eliminate the negative side of Dante by that comment, as a matter of fact I should (should) dedicate these holidays to the translation of Cecco d'Ascoli, first main enemy (as per literature, then he had his other political enemies who were worse because more powerful) of Dante, the book is there, peeping at it.
I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
Regards,
Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


  In a message dated 6/17/2004 6:18:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


    Like the fact that he was (sorry, CE) the most vindictive, intolerant,
    sadistic little man in the history of poetry?


  Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
  too late for DA.

  http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jun 18 03:35:14 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:35:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst-Eliot
References: <000101c454ca$aa8c87c0$303c1c40@Emily> <BAY18-DAV60MriHLKcP00039927@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003501c45506$cba4dac0$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Before you get carried away too much with Eliot there is a very interesting
essay by a young poet, Ben Mazer, I also feature on my Poets' Corner and of
whom I am very proud on Fulcrum 2 - Philosopies of Poetry : Hearing the
Mermaids: An Unremarked Source for T.S. Eliot's The Waste Land; followed by
his essay on Elisabeth Cavazza and finally his own poems (pages 366 to 391,
practically the end of the book).

And here is my link to Ben Mazer:
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=52

Happiness,
Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

"Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in
the abundance of the things which he possesseth."  Luke 12:15

From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 2:54 AM


> I didn't recommend anyone to read the interview, but some did.
>
> In it I recommended parents reading poetry to their children before
school,
> at early verbal acquisition.
>
> Then one can only hope for an English teacher along the way who can
> re-introduce it in a way not to turn them off from their early joy.
>
> I think Bob G. should write about why _Good Night, Moon_ remains so
> eternally popular with young children.  The pictures are great, but the
> lyricism is as well.  It has some kind of magic that I wish I could
> reproduce in my own work.  Then I'm beginning to sound like a Romantic.
>
> I guess my fascination with Eliot has something to do with that.  He was a
> classicist who nevertheless had a knack for choosing images that bring us
> back to our earliest consciousness.  In the 60s, American criticism had a
> big debate about whether Eliot was a Romantic or a Classicist, and leaned
> toward the former.  I accept the latter from his own mouth, but he still
has
> that sting of recollection for an idealized childhood that the Romantics
so
> exploited.
>
> Oh, I forgot most of Eliot bores you.... but maybe, just maybe, you'll
come
> to like _Four Quartets_ later in life.  They always blow me away, and I'm
> working towards them in my essays on Eliot.  Right now I'm deep in "Ash
> Wednesday," admittedly not his best poem.  But certainly worth reading, if
> you forgive the doggerel of Part V.
>
> --CE
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:24 PM
> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
>
>
> | CE wrote:
> |
> | "I am not concerned with what others write, I'm concerned about a future
> | readership for poetry.  So I mused about what kind of poetry might
> | address
> | the intelligent reader who studiously avoids poetry."
> |
> | I share this concern, but am not particularly worried about my (or
> | anyone's) part in ensuring a future for poetry.  There will always be
> | poets, and always readers of poetry.  There are more poets now than
> | ever.  The reason it seems that there are so many intelligent readers
> | who studiously avoid poetry is that there are so many different forms of
> | cultural production vying for attention.  If more "common" people read
> | poetry 100 years ago, it's because newspapers and "mainstream" magazines
> | printed it; it's because it didn't have television or films or recorded,
> | downloadable pop music to compete with. There are simply more options.
> | I don't mean to reduce poetry to "merely entertainment" here. I just
> | want to point to what I think might be part of the "problem" (if it is a
> | problem).  We also might want to reexamine how poetry is taught in
> | public K12 schools and in colleges.  Does the average intelligent reader
> | think poetry is difficult because it IS?  Or is it taught in a way that
> | makes it seem mysterious and difficult?
> |
> | Tony
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | New-Poetry mailing list
> | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> |
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jun 17 22:40:29 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:40:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dante.....
References: <BAY18-DAV49yEThVKfg00007a11@hotmail.com> <01a201c45401$4002c3c0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <033101c454a9$2f2b2760$5d607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <021301c454b8$cb530db0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV39zov8WCpC000396b4@hotmail.com> <027901c454c9$5abe09e0$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV33FkuutSgc0000db35@hotmail.com> <02e701c454da$60e9b830$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000001c4551c$71c22290$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Dammit.


> Sorry, CE, can't go with excusing it on his times.  So his age was vile
and
> his poem expressed his age.  I don't care.  Sure, maybe I would have been
> worse if I'd lived then.  Maybe posterity will judge me to have been worse
> even though living in this age.  In either case, I wouldn't excuse myself,
> either.
>
> Boccaccio, by the way, was NOT that long after Dante and wrote much more
> healthy-minded material.  I can't believe that all the Italian poets of
> Dante's time wrote everyone they didn't like into eternal damnation in
their
> works (and had as many enemies as Dante).
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 8:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dante.....
>
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > Even for you, this is a bit extreme.
> >
> > Have you ever read J. Huizinga on the Middle Ages?
> >
> > It may be you judge Dante anachronistically; the contradictions of that
> > magical and passionate age were a matter of course.
> >
> > Imagine living in Florence in the 14th century, being praised, then
> banned,
> > almost killed, and leaving your beloved city to try to find some peace
of
> > mind in the middle of life?
> >
> > I think you need to walk a little more in medieval shoes.
> >
> > Huizinga's a good place to start, but C. S. Lewis makes it easier.
> >
> > Just a thought,
> >
> > CE
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
> >
> >
> > | > Oh, Bob, I consider this a softball.
> > | >
> > | > What does biography have to do with judging art?
> > |
> > | Nothing, unless a vindictive, intolerant, sadistic little man writes a
> > poem
> > | expressing those traits of his, as Dante did.
> > |
> > | --Bob G.
> > |
> > |
> > | _______________________________________________
> > | New-Poetry mailing list
> > | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > |
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 06:22:08 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:22:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <004b01c4551e$1e8c7d80$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


  And yes Bob G. I didn't eliminate the negative side of Dante by that comment, as a matter of fact I should (should) dedicate these holidays to the translation of Cecco d'Ascoli, first main enemy (as per literature, then he had his other political enemies who were worse because more powerful) of Dante, the book is there, peeping at it.

  I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
  I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
  Regards,
  Anny

  I'm afraid I'm not the one to ask, Anny,  Both sound gruesome to me.

  --Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jun 18 07:08:38 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:08:38 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <004b01c4551e$1e8c7d80$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <012e01c45524$9c965ce0$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

All the way down:
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 12:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....



    And yes Bob G. I didn't eliminate the negative side of Dante by that comment, as a matter of fact I should (should) dedicate these holidays to the translation of Cecco d'Ascoli, first main enemy (as per literature, then he had his other political enemies who were worse because more powerful) of Dante, the book is there, peeping at it.

    I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
    I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
    Regards,
    Anny

    I'm afraid I'm not the one to ask, Anny,  Both sound gruesome to me.

    --Bob G.


    I think this list should invent Bob G. if he did not exist, how can someone be so helplessly sincere?
    Cheers, Anny
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Jun 18 09:13:16 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:13:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <000101c454ca$aa8c87c0$303c1c40@Emily>
References: <BAY18-DAV21mvgt9iPP000395ef@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40D2B22C.20285.6D89D8@localhost>

On 17 Jun 2004 at 17:24, Anthony Robinson wrote:
> ... We also might want to reexamine how
> poetry is taught in public K12 schools and in colleges.  Does the
> average intelligent reader think poetry is difficult because it IS? 
> Or is it taught in a way that makes it seem mysterious and difficult?

The "intelligent reader" understands right away that what's on offer 
for the most part in modern and contemporary poetry is neither 
interesting thought nor interesting use of language: it's pretending 
to the one by obfuscation in the other. Obfuscation is not 
difficulty.

Marcus




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 10:06:00 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:06:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <004b01c4551e$1e8c7d80$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <012e01c45524$9c965ce0$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <009601c4553d$643c3590$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


      I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
      I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
      Regards,
      Anny

      I'm afraid I'm not the one to ask, Anny,  Both sound gruesome to me.

      --Bob G.


      I think this list should invent Bob G. if he did not exist, how can someone be so helplessly sincere?
      Cheers, Anny

      Are you saying you didn't want my High Supreme Advice, Anny?

      --Bob G.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Jun 18 10:18:07 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:18:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Difficulty
In-Reply-To: <40D2B22C.20285.6D89D8@localhost>
Message-ID: <BCF863CF.9FAD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/18/04 8:13 AM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> On 17 Jun 2004 at 17:24, Anthony Robinson wrote:
>> ... We also might want to reexamine how
>> poetry is taught in public K12 schools and in colleges.  Does the
>> average intelligent reader think poetry is difficult because it IS?
>> Or is it taught in a way that makes it seem mysterious and difficult?
> 
> The "intelligent reader" understands right away that what's on offer
> for the most part in modern and contemporary poetry is neither
> interesting thought nor interesting use of language: it's pretending
> to the one by obfuscation in the other. Obfuscation is not
> difficulty.
> 
> Marcus


From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Jun 18 10:24:29 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:24:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00df01c4553f$f79c9030$390c9942@Helen>

Anny, if there's already a ruggieri there ido I have to take the test? 

xxx
h
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 3:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


  They will have to chop me up to fit four levels:

  Level 5 - Wrathful and Gloomy
  Level 6 - Heretics
  Level 7 - Violent
  Level 8 - Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers

  with a Very High danger to get also to the Level 2 - Lustful (I might have skipped a question there); and Level 9 - Treacherous!

  And yes Bob G. I didn't eliminate the negative side of Dante by that comment, as a matter of fact I should (should) dedicate these holidays to the translation of Cecco d'Ascoli, first main enemy (as per literature, then he had his other political enemies who were worse because more powerful) of Dante, the book is there, peeping at it.
  I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
  I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
  Regards,
  Anny
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: JforJames at aol.com 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:19 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


    In a message dated 6/17/2004 6:18:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


      Like the fact that he was (sorry, CE) the most vindictive, intolerant,
      sadistic little man in the history of poetry?


    Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
    too late for DA.

    http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 10:26:19 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:26:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Difficulty
References: <BCF863CF.9FAD%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00ea01c45540$3b373c00$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Anyway, by my lights there is plenty of memorable language and thought
among
> contemporary poets, though as is always the case it can take some effort
to
> separate the wheat from the chaff,

and the valuably difficult from obfuscation.

--Bob G.




From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Fri Jun 18 10:33:39 2004
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:33:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV31hrOBDQnD0000e0dd@hotmail.com>
References: <000201c454ca$ad4bf5e0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040618092815.01043888@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 08:09 PM 6/17/2004 -0500, C. E. Chaffin wrote:


>We've featured a poet probably no one's heard of in our magazine twice,
>Scott Murphy, whose poetry I always look forward to, but he doesn't appear
>anywhere you might come across, and I've essentially lost contact with him,
>although I think him a very noteworthy poet.  Anyone interested can check
>the search engine at www.melicreview.com for his work.

One good example of Scott Murphy's work:

Slide

Look how the stones can be made to move and growl,
to kill with the animate swiftness
of avalanche snow.
If there's a Gaia and she thinks,
she's a bucking bronc and these hard things
are the little fly flick of her agile skin:
easy experiments toward bucking us off.

So we stand fleas in the hairs, the forests
of the world, waterstriders
to dimple the cheek of a stagnant pool.
Beasts borrow breath from us
to howl against red night,
and we are for fire and for ashes,
last for the lye of penance.
Some god haunts the world
and we are motes to sting its eyes.

------------------------------------------

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jun 18 10:44:26 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:44:26 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <00df01c4553f$f79c9030$390c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <01b901c45542$c0ee1f10$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

-:)
oh no Helen, one per family is enough!
sure they don't want any clans down there.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Helen Ruggieri 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 4:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


  Anny, if there's already a ruggieri there ido I have to take the test? 

  xxx
  h
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 3:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


    They will have to chop me up to fit four levels:

    Level 5 - Wrathful and Gloomy
    Level 6 - Heretics
    Level 7 - Violent
    Level 8 - Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers

    with a Very High danger to get also to the Level 2 - Lustful (I might have skipped a question there); and Level 9 - Treacherous!

    And yes Bob G. I didn't eliminate the negative side of Dante by that comment, as a matter of fact I should (should) dedicate these holidays to the translation of Cecco d'Ascoli, first main enemy (as per literature, then he had his other political enemies who were worse because more powerful) of Dante, the book is there, peeping at it.
    I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
    I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
    Regards,
    Anny
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: JforJames at aol.com 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:19 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


      In a message dated 6/17/2004 6:18:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


        Like the fact that he was (sorry, CE) the most vindictive, intolerant,
        sadistic little man in the history of poetry?


      Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
      too late for DA.

      http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Jun 18 10:57:51 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:57:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poets
In-Reply-To: <000201c454ca$ad4bf5e0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <BCF86D1F.9FB7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/17/04 7:24 PM, Anthony Robinson at antrobin at clipper.net wrote:


> 
> My proposal is this:  each person who desires can post the names of 3-5
> currenly living and writing poets whom he or she believes to be "good."
> Not "Great" (unless you know of some great poets) but good.  Poets whose
> work you always read when it appears in a journal, whose books you
> eagerly await, etc.
> 
> If you can't come up with 3-5, maybe that proves C.E.'s point. Maybe
> not.  But it might be a fun way to introduce list members to poets we
> admire, esp. lesser-known poets.
> 
> Anyone game?
> 
> Tony
> 

Among the current eminences, I'd lay my money on both Heaney and Walcott as
poets likely to see their reputations survive into the future.  I could be
wrong, naturally; just ask Whittier and Swinburne. . . .

Darker horses & younger talents I'd *like* to see survive:  well, the list
is quite long. And I've mentioned some of my own favorites often enough in
this space, I think.

As for poets who can compete in quality with the high modernists, I think
that the next generation or two down has quite a few contenders, actually:
Roethke, Auden, Hughes, Rexroth, Thomas, Hayden, Lowell, Bishop, Berryman,
Brooks, Duncan, Stafford, Carruth. . . .   Not as individually influential
as Eliot, certainly (though I think Auden may have been), but my goodness
what a diversity of lovely poems!

Then the generation of the 20s, including Wilbur, Larkin, Creeley, Hecht,
Dugan, Koch, Ashbery, Ginsberg, Snodgrass, Merrill, Ammmons, O'Hara, Rich,
Levine--rather a cornucopia, I'd say.
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Jun 18 11:11:16 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:11:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <00df01c4553f$f79c9030$390c9942@Helen> <01b901c45542$c0ee1f10$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <001801c45546$80bb80a0$390c9942@Helen>

Ya know, maybe I'm paranoid but I figured if someone kept these results it would be first class blackmail material. 

Have you ever stolen from an employer? 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


  -:)
  oh no Helen, one per family is enough!
  sure they don't want any clans down there.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Helen Ruggieri 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 4:24 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


    Anny, if there's already a ruggieri there ido I have to take the test? 

    xxx
    h
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Anny Ballardini 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 3:12 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


      They will have to chop me up to fit four levels:

      Level 5 - Wrathful and Gloomy
      Level 6 - Heretics
      Level 7 - Violent
      Level 8 - Fraudulent, Malicious, Panderers

      with a Very High danger to get also to the Level 2 - Lustful (I might have skipped a question there); and Level 9 - Treacherous!

      And yes Bob G. I didn't eliminate the negative side of Dante by that comment, as a matter of fact I should (should) dedicate these holidays to the translation of Cecco d'Ascoli, first main enemy (as per literature, then he had his other political enemies who were worse because more powerful) of Dante, the book is there, peeping at it.
      I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
      I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
      Regards,
      Anny
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: JforJames at aol.com 
        To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
        Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:19 AM
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


        In a message dated 6/17/2004 6:18:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


          Like the fact that he was (sorry, CE) the most vindictive, intolerant,
          sadistic little man in the history of poetry?


        Which ring of hell? Now you can take the test...alas
        too late for DA.

        http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv 
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jun 18 11:32:53 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:32:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <00df01c4553f$f79c9030$390c9942@Helen> <01b901c45542$c0ee1f10$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <001801c45546$80bb80a0$390c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <01de01c45549$86917630$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

The way they asked the questions, no I don't have a Suv but wouldn't throw it away if they gave it to me.
I am impressed by the SanCtity of David Graham, Jexus is He Normal?

About stealing:

A long time ago, my li'lle sister, and li'lle she was, came to Florence to see me on holiday for 3 days, and found a poor bigger sister who had to spend all her money for books and occasionally for other nectars of the earth instead of food and clothes. So we went to the busy market in the square and the poor li'lle sister saw those enormous juicy fresh watermelons, the hungry she was she picked it up and came to me to ask me if we could buy it, and I simply said, "Let's go", so there we went with that enormous stolen watermelon that weighted who knows how much! I think it was on that occasion that they also stole my wallet with the last coins I had, but that is another story.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Helen Ruggieri 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 5:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


  Ya know, maybe I'm paranoid but I figured if someone kept these results it would be first class blackmail material. 

  Have you ever stolen from an employer? 


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:44 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


    -:)
    oh no Helen, one per family is enough!
    sure they don't want any clans down there.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jun 18 11:58:47 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:58:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
Message-ID: <b9.41d2d09b.2e046b37@cs.com>

Ah, the joys of literary correspondence:

http://www.newcriterion.com/constant/letters.htm#108665978967197950
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Jun 18 11:53:25 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:53:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <001801c45546$80bb80a0$390c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <40D2D7B5.28211.1002ADE@localhost>

On 18 Jun 2004 at 11:11, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> Ya know, maybe I'm paranoid but I figured if someone kept these 
> results it would be first class blackmail material. 
> Have you ever stolen from an employer? 

I'll tell you this: owning the company takes all the joy out of 
stealing office supplies.

Marcus







From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 18 12:54:48 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:54:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Murphy
References: <000201c454ca$ad4bf5e0$303c1c40@Emily> <5.2.1.1.0.20040618092815.01043888@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV33oMDrxxnS0000edf6@hotmail.com>

Thank you so much, Richard, one I hadn't seen.

I think he's really good.

Please backchannel me if you have a contact address for him.

Thanks a bunch,

CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Wilsnack" <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony


| At 08:09 PM 6/17/2004 -0500, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
|
|
| >We've featured a poet probably no one's heard of in our magazine twice,
| >Scott Murphy, whose poetry I always look forward to, but he doesn't
appear
| >anywhere you might come across, and I've essentially lost contact with
him,
| >although I think him a very noteworthy poet.  Anyone interested can check
| >the search engine at www.melicreview.com for his work.
|
| One good example of Scott Murphy's work:
|
| Slide
|
| Look how the stones can be made to move and growl,
| to kill with the animate swiftness
| of avalanche snow.
| If there's a Gaia and she thinks,
| she's a bucking bronc and these hard things
| are the little fly flick of her agile skin:
| easy experiments toward bucking us off.
|
| So we stand fleas in the hairs, the forests
| of the world, waterstriders
| to dimple the cheek of a stagnant pool.
| Beasts borrow breath from us
| to howl against red night,
| and we are for fire and for ashes,
| last for the lye of penance.
| Some god haunts the world
| and we are motes to sting its eyes.
|
| ------------------------------------------
|
| Richard W. Wilsnack
| rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
|
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 13:10:14 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:10:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <000201c454ca$ad4bf5e0$303c1c40@Emily> <5.2.1.1.0.20040618092815.01043888@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <012101c45557$21768e30$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> One good example of Scott Murphy's work:
>
> Slide
>
> Look how the stones can be made to move and growl,
> to kill with the animate swiftness
> of avalanche snow.
> If there's a Gaia and she thinks,
> she's a bucking bronc and these hard things
> are the little fly flick of her agile skin:
> easy experiments toward bucking us off.
>
> So we stand fleas in the hairs, the forests
> of the world, waterstriders
> to dimple the cheek of a stagnant pool.
> Beasts borrow breath from us
> to howl against red night,
> and we are for fire and for ashes,
> last for the lye of penance.
> Some god haunts the world
> and we are motes to sting its eyes.
>

Just to show Tony I can jump on a poem for something other than its not
being burstnorm, I want to point out that this one's first stanza's last
line is superfluous, and therefore a flaw.  Anyone disagree?

Not a bad poem but--well, one of my favorites, Robinson Jeffers, seems to me
to have done the same sort of thing better.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 13:27:32 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:27:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
References: <b9.41d2d09b.2e046b37@cs.com>
Message-ID: <013f01c45559$8ceeb140$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Ah, the joys of literary correspondence:

http://www.newcriterion.com/constant/letters.htm#108665978967197950 

Do you think Wright actually wrote the letter Logan quotes?  I can't imagine even a third-rater like him writing such a stupid letter.  But his other letter is pretty stupid, too: "I wouldn't want someone like you to say I was a good writer, plus you're a bad writer, too, yah yah."  If Logan ever took into his head to try literary criticism and therefore began writing about poetry of interest instead of Knopfetry and  attacked mine, I'd be overjoyed at the chance to point out the flaws in his analysis.

--Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jun 18 13:30:20 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:30:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <1f1.233be059.2e0380fe@aol.com> <001701c45503$aa4e7d70$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <004b01c4551e$1e8c7d80$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <012e01c45524$9c965ce0$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <009601c4553d$643c3590$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <022d01c45559$ef2d7300$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

oh no, please, all ears I am
Anny

I thought that what I wrote was one of my few compliments for you.
  From: Bob Grumman 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 4:06 PM



        I am asking, do you think it is worth to carry out the Heavy Duty or is it better to go on sacred Holy Days?
        I will seriously Ponder Your High Supreme Advice,
        Regards,
        Anny

        I'm afraid I'm not the one to ask, Anny,  Both sound gruesome to me.

        --Bob G.


        I think this list should invent Bob G. if he did not exist, how can someone be so helplessly sincere?
        Cheers, Anny

        Are you saying you didn't want my High Supreme Advice, Anny?

        --Bob G.
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Jun 18 13:31:27 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:31:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV31hrOBDQnD0000e0dd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501c4555a$1fd46f90$303c1c40@Emily>

The question I posed to the list was to name living, writing poets that
people admired, liked, thought were "good," not "major" or destined to
last, etc.  

The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
difficult question.  It occurred to me while thinking about my own
favorites, that I'd have to strike two from my list--Koch,
Ammons--because they have both recently died.

So my short list of poets whose work I seek out, enjoy, think is "good"
would include:  Gabriel Gudding, Harryette Mullen, and perhaps Brenda
Hillman.  Someone else mentioned Walcott, who I'd also agree is a good
poet.

There are also many younger poets whose work is not as widely available
who I like a great deal.  Pick up a copy of _The Canary_ if you want to
see what I mean.

Tony 



From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Jun 18 13:31:27 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:31:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <02d101c454d8$0e4cf490$78efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily>

Bob G. wrote:

"Ah, you don't think criticism might help a poor poet become a good
poet?
Not that that's the only reason I ever slam a poem.  Another reason is
to
clear the way for what I deem good poetry."


To answer your question, No, of course not.  The "poor poets" you slam
are generally well-established poets with plenty of publications.
Criticism of any sort is not likely to substantially (or even a little
bit) change they way they write poetry.  Do you think (to pull a name
out of a hat) Sharon Olds reads William Logan's review of her new book
and then says "Oh my!  He's right!  I need to write better poems!" 

Criticism (though maybe not "slamming" a poem) might be useful for the
young poet who's just beginning to learn his craft, but that's not
really what we're discussing here.

Finally, I don't understand your "Another reason" above.  How does
negative criticism of "bad poetry" clear the way for good poetry?  I
don't know what that means--if you criticize loudly and vocally enough,
will the bad poetry "step aside" and let the good poems through?

Tony
 



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jun 18 13:35:57 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:35:57 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <002501c4555a$1fd46f90$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <024e01c4555a$b73e7d80$66737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi Tony and all

here is my choice, far from being complete,
take care, Anny

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content


From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 7:31 PM


> The question I posed to the list was to name living, writing poets that
> people admired, liked, thought were "good," not "major" or destined to
> last, etc.  
> 
> The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
> difficult question.  It occurred to me while thinking about my own
> favorites, that I'd have to strike two from my list--Koch,
> Ammons--because they have both recently died.
> 
> So my short list of poets whose work I seek out, enjoy, think is "good"
> would include:  Gabriel Gudding, Harryette Mullen, and perhaps Brenda
> Hillman.  Someone else mentioned Walcott, who I'd also agree is a good
> poet.
> 
> There are also many younger poets whose work is not as widely available
> who I like a great deal.  Pick up a copy of _The Canary_ if you want to
> see what I mean.
> 
> Tony 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Jun 18 13:39:32 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:39:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
In-Reply-To: <013f01c45559$8ceeb140$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003601c4555b$3e4bb3b0$303c1c40@Emily>

I think it's probable that Wright did actually write this letter. I've
heard stories about his assholishness.  A few months back, the young
Boston poet, publisher, and blogger Aaron Tieger was engaged in a
semi-public feud with Wright after mentioning on his blog that he didn't
like his work. (I don't recall the exact circumstances, but it wasn't a
random attack; Tieger was writing about a reading he'd attended.) In any
case, his comments on Wright were not malicious or Logan-like in the
least, but Wright went to the trouble of tracking down Tieger and
sending him nasty letters.
 
Tony
 
 
Do you think Wright actually wrote the letter Logan quotes?  I can't
imagine even a third-rater like him writing such a stupid letter.  But
his other letter is pretty stupid, too: "I wouldn't want someone like
you to say I was a good writer, plus you're a bad writer, too, yah yah."
If Logan ever took into his head to try literary criticism and therefore
began writing about poetry of interest instead of Knopfetry and
attacked mine, I'd be overjoyed at the chance to point out the flaws in
his analysis.
 
--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 18 14:06:18 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:06:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Kinsella's work.
Message-ID: <105.49696c88.2e04891a@aol.com>

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/16/1087244973027.html?oneclick=true
Harvesting memories
June 19, 2004
  
Australia remains a key inspiration for John Kinsella's work. 
 
John Kinsella is a prolific writer and publisher in the vanguard of 
international poetry. But his heart lies on a farm in Western Australia, he tells Gig 
Ryan.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jun 18 14:09:22 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:09:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
Message-ID: <33.49601513.2e0489d2@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 12:40:15 PM Central Daylight Time, 
antrobin at clipper.net writes: 
> 
> I think it?s probable that Wright did actually write this letter. I?ve 
> heard stories about his assholishness.  A few months back, the young Boston poet, 
> publisher, and blogger Aaron Tieger was engaged in a semi-public feud with 
> Wright after mentioning on his blog that he didn?t like his work. (I don?t 
> recall the exact circumstances, but it wasn?t a random attack; Tieger was 
> writing about a reading he?d attended.) In any case, his comments on Wright were 
> not malicious or Logan-like in the least, but Wright went to the trouble of 
> tracking down Tieger and sending him nasty letters.
> 
>   
> 
>  Tony
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
Logan may be a hatchetman, but he's not a liar.
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jun 18 14:11:59 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:11:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poets
References: <BCF86D1F.9FB7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <008a01c4555f$c08df780$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'm writing a short piece on Henri Coulette, so I've been reading him
lately, and I'd mention his name on both the "good poets" list and the
"accessible poets" list.

Petition
by Henri Coulette


Lord of the  Tenth Life,
Welcome my Jerome,
A fierce, gold tabby.
Make  him feel at home.

He loves bird and mouse.
He loves a  man's lap,
And in winter  light,
Paws tucked in, a nap.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:57 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poets


> on 6/17/04 7:24 PM, Anthony Robinson at antrobin at clipper.net wrote:
>
>
> >
> > My proposal is this:  each person who desires can post the names of 3-5
> > currenly living and writing poets whom he or she believes to be "good."
> > Not "Great" (unless you know of some great poets) but good.  Poets whose
> > work you always read when it appears in a journal, whose books you
> > eagerly await, etc.
> >
> > If you can't come up with 3-5, maybe that proves C.E.'s point. Maybe
> > not.  But it might be a fun way to introduce list members to poets we
> > admire, esp. lesser-known poets.
> >
> > Anyone game?
> >
> > Tony
> >
>
> Among the current eminences, I'd lay my money on both Heaney and Walcott
as
> poets likely to see their reputations survive into the future.  I could be
> wrong, naturally; just ask Whittier and Swinburne. . . .
>
> Darker horses & younger talents I'd *like* to see survive:  well, the list
> is quite long. And I've mentioned some of my own favorites often enough in
> this space, I think.
>
> As for poets who can compete in quality with the high modernists, I think
> that the next generation or two down has quite a few contenders, actually:
> Roethke, Auden, Hughes, Rexroth, Thomas, Hayden, Lowell, Bishop, Berryman,
> Brooks, Duncan, Stafford, Carruth. . . .   Not as individually influential
> as Eliot, certainly (though I think Auden may have been), but my goodness
> what a diversity of lovely poems!
>
> Then the generation of the 20s, including Wilbur, Larkin, Creeley, Hecht,
> Dugan, Koch, Ashbery, Ginsberg, Snodgrass, Merrill, Ammmons, O'Hara, Rich,
> Levine--rather a cornucopia, I'd say.
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jun 18 14:30:53 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:30:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poets
Message-ID: <159.37f2fe11.2e048edd@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 1:13:10 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes: 
> 
> I'm writing a short piece on Henri Coulette, so I've been reading him
> lately, and I'd mention his name on both the "good poets" list and the
> "accessible poets" list.

Do you know the horror story about his second book?  Shortly after its 
release it was shredded by the publisher because of an error in the warehouse.  It 
was never reprinted by the original publisher and wasn't seen again until the 
Arkansas book.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 14:41:15 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:41:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <018e01c45563$d9296af0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> "Ah, you don't think criticism might help a poor poet become a good
> poet?
> Not that that's the only reason I ever slam a poem.  Another reason is
> to
> clear the way for what I deem good poetry."


> To answer your question, No, of course not.  The "poor poets" you slam
> are generally well-established poets with plenty of publications.
> Criticism of any sort is not likely to substantially (or even a little
> bit) change they way they write poetry.  Do you think (to pull a name
> out of a hat) Sharon Olds reads William Logan's review of her new book
> and then says "Oh my!  He's right!  I need to write better poems!"

No, but I'm sure any good poet reading intelligent criticism of his work may
be influenced by it, regardless of how recognized he is.  For instance, if
someone sneered that I'd written another poem using technique Q or
discussing subject J, it well might bring me up short, and realize I should
try a new technique or subject.

> Criticism (though maybe not "slamming" a poem) might be useful for the
> young poet who's just beginning to learn his craft, but that's not
> really what we're discussing here.
>
> Finally, I don't understand your "Another reason" above.  How does
> negative criticism of "bad poetry" clear the way for good poetry?  I
> don't know what that means--if you criticize loudly and vocally enough,
> will the bad poetry "step aside" and let the good poems through?

No, if you criticize intelligently enough, you may influence editors to
publish poets you find inferior less often and poets you find superior more
often.  You may also encourage others to make their negative views of bad
poetry known, which may influence editors to accept less bad poetry.  You
may also cause hypersensitive bad poets to get drunk and stop writing poetry
for a while.

--Bob G.




From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jun 18 14:47:14 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:47:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poets
References: <159.37f2fe11.2e048edd@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c45564$ad4a1320$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

Yes - and in the piece I'm writing, I'd like to compare him to Eric Andersen, who was one of the hot young Dylan-generation folksingers - his first album got good notices, and Judy Collins recorded his "Thirsty Boots." His second album was going to be the breakout career-maker...until the master tapes of it got lost somewhere in a Columbia warehouse. 

The album never came out; Andersen's career never recovered. They were finally found - and the album released - thirty years later. A little late. 

But...it's the wrong kind of book. They won't appreciate my wide-ranging frames of reference.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 2:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Good Poets


  In a message dated 6/18/2004 1:13:10 PM Central Daylight Time, tad at opus40.org writes: 


    I'm writing a short piece on Henri Coulette, so I've been reading him
    lately, and I'd mention his name on both the "good poets" list and the
    "accessible poets" list.


  Do you know the horror story about his second book?  Shortly after its release it was shredded by the publisher because of an error in the warehouse.  It was never reprinted by the original publisher and wasn't seen again until the Arkansas book. 
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Jun 18 14:58:52 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:58:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <40D2D7B5.28211.1002ADE@localhost>
Message-ID: <004b01c45566$4ccee870$d2099942@Helen>

Not to mention all those Xerox copies of poems on the house. 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


> On 18 Jun 2004 at 11:11, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > Ya know, maybe I'm paranoid but I figured if someone kept these 
> > results it would be first class blackmail material. 
> > Have you ever stolen from an employer? 
> 
> I'll tell you this: owning the company takes all the joy out of 
> stealing office supplies.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jun 18 16:53:54 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:53:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <002501c4555a$1fd46f90$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <012c01c45576$5fc5b1b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I'd put Meg Kearney on a list of young poets whose work I like.

Love Is a Form of Recklessness
My mother is AWOL from God. 
That's what the nuns back 
in Bristol are whispering, 
though they're not allowed 
to speak her name or listen 
to the radio, which keeps on 
playing the Summer of '64's
number-one hit on the pop charts:
Dione Warwick's "Walk on By." 

My mother's left hand grips 
the steering wheel; her right 
rubs her chin as Dione belts 
that line, "Oh, foolish pride..." 
Mother's Levis are still too 
tight; her hair, snarled above 
her neck; her heart's a key on 
a kite string. She left 
the convent two years before 

and still has nothing, not even
her baby. The alto horn cuts 
in, Dione's back-up, as my 
mother, twenty-five and broke, 
drives her parents' Chevy back 
to Long Island. I'm left in 
Manhattan, seven days old and 
clueless but panicky, because 
I'd sensed her panic as she left, 

her kisses a pillow pressed to 
my mouth. Now she wants to change 
the station, change her mind, 
because chances are she won't 
recognize me if, years later, 
I walk by her on the street. My
mother's love is the strength 
to walk and keep on walking, 
drive and keep driving until 

her daughter has learned to live 
without her, until the day 
a chance meeting is impossible 
because she is forty-four and soon 
will be dead. But my mother does 
not see that far ahead. She merges 
onto the L.I.E., reaches down, 
turns up the volume on the radio, 
and begins to sing along.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony


> The question I posed to the list was to name living, writing poets that
> people admired, liked, thought were "good," not "major" or destined to
> last, etc.  
> 
> The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
> difficult question.  It occurred to me while thinking about my own
> favorites, that I'd have to strike two from my list--Koch,
> Ammons--because they have both recently died.
> 
> So my short list of poets whose work I seek out, enjoy, think is "good"
> would include:  Gabriel Gudding, Harryette Mullen, and perhaps Brenda
> Hillman.  Someone else mentioned Walcott, who I'd also agree is a good
> poet.
> 
> There are also many younger poets whose work is not as widely available
> who I like a great deal.  Pick up a copy of _The Canary_ if you want to
> see what I mean.
> 
> Tony 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 17:23:25 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:23:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
References: <33.49601513.2e0489d2@cs.com>
Message-ID: <01c101c4557a$7f985fc0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


I think it?s probable that Wright did actually write this letter. I?ve heard stories about his assholishness.  A few months back, the young Boston poet, publisher, and blogger Aaron Tieger was engaged in a semi-public feud with Wright after mentioning on his blog that he didn?t like his work. (I don?t recall the exact circumstances, but it wasn?t a random attack; Tieger was writing about a reading he?d attended.) In any case, his comments on Wright were not malicious or Logan-like in the least, but Wright went to the trouble of tracking down Tieger and sending him nasty letters.

Tony



  Logan may be a hatchetman, but he's not a liar. 

  I was pretty sure he wasn't lying, just found the letter amazingly stupid, so was meaning something like, "how can this be true?"

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 17:43:56 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:43:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <01f201c4557d$5d8f93a0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Addition: by panning known poets you can, if you show why you don't like
their poetry, educate younger poets--show them things to avoid, etc.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 18:19:18 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:19:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <01f201c4557d$5d8f93a0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <021301c45582$4e664090$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Second addition: what makes posting positive evaluations of poems good if
posting negative evaluations is bad?

--Bob G.




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Jun 18 12:39:55 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:39:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
In-Reply-To: <b9.41d2d09b.2e046b37@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BCF8850B.6974%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 6/18/04 10:58 AM, "Rsgwynn1 at cs.com" <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> Ah, the joys of literary correspondence:
> 
> http://www.newcriterion.com/constant/letters.htm#108665978967197950

Wow, that?s some letter.  That?s one way to discourage bad reviews, I
suppose. A better way would  be to write better poems.

Paul Lake

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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 18 19:58:41 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:58:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
Message-ID: <110.337a87c6.2e04dbb1@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/17/2004 10:24:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Clark Coolidge is major,
Bob,
I don't hear much about him these days.
He seemed more on my radar during the
80's. Have you kept up with his work?
Finnegan 
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 18 21:34:13 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:34:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] CC--
Message-ID: <200406190016.i5J0Gj5t016842@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

yeah, and he's going through another change in his poetry
perhaps as significant as that Own/face crystal text change...

the latest stuff still has the abstract chops
but some very human scenarios enter in now
(often taken from movies i suppose....but never just i bet./...)

c


----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
Date: Fri, Jun 18, 2004, 3:58 PM


In a message dated 6/17/2004 10:24:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

Clark Coolidge is major,

Bob,
I don't hear much about him these days.
He seemed more on my radar during the
80's. Have you kept up with his work?
Finnegan 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 20:41:11 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:41:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <110.337a87c6.2e04dbb1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <025401c45596$21d8d3d0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

    Clark Coolidge is major,

  Bob,
  I don't hear much about him these days.
  He seemed more on my radar during the
  80's. Have you kept up with his work?
  Finnegan 

  Nope.  Language poetry is the one area I haven't been able to keep up with.  But Coolidge has done some poems ("A Geology," for one) that seem important to me.

  --Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 18 20:58:18 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:58:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
Message-ID: <1e5.234255be.2e04e9aa@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 1:32:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
antrobin at clipper.net writes:

> The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
> difficult question.

Snyder, Gary
Rich, Adrienne
Levine, Philip
Gregg, Linda
Merwin, WS
Gilbert, Jack

My odds-on favorite horses 
(among the living, last I checked).
Finnegan
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Jun 18 21:03:41 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:03:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
In-Reply-To: <1e5.234255be.2e04e9aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a501c45599$4af87290$303c1c40@Emily>

I'll give you the Jack Gilbert, and perhaps early Rich. 
 
The appeal of Levine still escapes me, though he *did* write a non-fan
letter to my magazine, _The Canary_ once!!
 
Tony




The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
difficult question.



Snyder, Gary
Rich, Adrienne
Levine, Philip
Gregg, Linda
Merwin, WS
Gilbert, Jack

My odds-on favorite horses 
(among the living, last I checked).
Finnegan 

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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 18 21:08:36 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:08:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
Message-ID: <9e.d6ba0ae.2e04ec14@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 1:11:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Robinson Jeffers, seems to me
> to have done the same sort of thing better.
> 
> 
Re: Murphy
Bob, definitely, the beauty of Jeffers' nature poetry
was how seldom he overtly anthropomorphized.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jun 18 21:09:44 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:09:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan
References: <BCF8850B.6974%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <026801c4559a$1e5a5ea0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: [New-Poetry] Logan
Wow, that's some letter.  That's one way to discourage bad reviews, I suppose. A better way would  be to write better poems.

Paul Lake

Or learning how to show up bad critics with intelligent defenses of one's poetry.

--Bob G.

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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 18 21:14:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:14:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
Message-ID: <1df.2372e25b.2e04ed6e@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 9:05:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
antrobin at clipper.net writes:

> I'll give you the Jack Gilbert, and perhaps early Rich. 
>   
> 
Tony,
I can't say it's entirely objective. It's a wish as much
as anything else.  I have begun a large project of
aphorisms mixed with short paragraphs taking up this
or that issue related to poetry. One of the aphorisms
goes something like:
One's definition of poetry is one's defense of poetry.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 18 21:34:05 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:34:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
Message-ID: <96.dd58f4f.2e04f20d@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 4:55:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org 
writes:

> 
> I'd put Meg Kearney on a list of young poets whose work I like.
> 
> Love Is a Form of Recklessness
> My mother is AWOL from God. 
> That's what the nuns back 
> in Bristol are whispering, 
> though they're not allowed 
> to speak her name or listen 
> to the radio, which keeps on 
> playing the Summer of '64's
> number-one hit on the pop charts:
> Dione Warwick's "Walk on By." 
> 
> My mother's left hand grips 
> the steering wheel; her right 
> rubs her chin as Dione belts 
> that line, "Oh, foolish pride..." 
> Mother's Levis are still too 
> tight; her hair, snarled above 
> her neck; her heart's a key on 
> a kite string. She left 
> the convent two years before 
> 
> and still has nothing, not even
> her baby. The alto horn cuts 
> in, Dione's back-up, as my 
> mother, twenty-five and broke, 
> drives her parents' Chevy back 
> to Long Island. I'm left in 
> Manhattan, seven days old and 
> clueless but panicky, because 
> I'd sensed her panic as she left, 
> 
> her kisses a pillow pressed to 
> my mouth. Now she wants to change 
> the station, change her mind, 
> because chances are she won't 
> recognize me if, years later, 
> I walk by her on the street. My
> mother's love is the strength 
> to walk and keep on walking, 
> drive and keep driving until 
> 
> her daughter has learned to live 
> without her, until the day 
> a chance meeting is impossible 
> because she is forty-four and soon 
> will be dead. But my mother does 
> not see that far ahead. She merges 
> onto the L.I.E., reaches down, 
> turns up the volume on the radio, 
> and begins to sing along

Tad, is this the NY School (gen x) 
moved out to The Island?
Finnegan
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From kellogg at duke.edu  Fri Jun 18 21:39:21 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:39:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
In-Reply-To: <1df.2372e25b.2e04ed6e@aol.com>
References: <1df.2372e25b.2e04ed6e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1087609161.40d39949d6da3@webmail.duke.edu>

The one poet I always read is Thomas Kinsella (Irish poet).  But since I think 
he's actually great -- one of the great poets of the second half of the 20th -- 
maybe he doesn't count.  In a century, with any luck, Heaney will seem the 
quaint craftsman he is and Kinsella's greatness will be understood.  

The other potentially great poets writing in English, on my list, are Anne 
Carson, John Ashbery, and (oddly) Frederick Seidel. Ashbery always pleases me, 
though he does go on.  Carson always surprises, and Seidel's severity is 
wonderfully bracing.  

On the "consistently good" list: Donald Revell, John Koethe, Jane Miller, 
Rosemarie Waldrop.  

I propose we also create the following lists: 

(1) poets-I-admire-but-wish-I-understood-better

(2) ambitious but overrated 

(3) overrated (simple version) 

(4) poets I refuse to read any more

David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jun 18 21:55:07 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:55:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
Message-ID: <141.2c6a90be.2e04f6fb@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 8:40:24 PM Central Daylight Time, 
kellogg at duke.edu writes: 
> Carson always surprises, and Seidel's severity is 
> wonderfully bracing.  
David, I would suspect your taste in restaurants.  Barbecue with truffle 
sauce?  Crecy greens au gratin? Collards a la puke?  Why do you always defend 
wretched Seidel, the poet laureate of the Wall Stree Journal?  Does he handle your 
porfolio?
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jun 18 21:58:28 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:58:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
Message-ID: <15d.37f89ef7.2e04f7c4@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 8:40:24 PM Central Daylight Time, 
kellogg at duke.edu writes: 
> Carson always surprises, and Seidel's severity is 
> wonderfully bracing.  
David, I would suspect your taste in restaurants.  Pork barbecue with truffle 
sauce?  Crecy greens au gratin? Collards a la puke?  Why do you always defend 
the wretched Seidel, the poet laureate of the Wall Street Journal?  Does he 
handle your porfolio?  Are you mad?  Have you been living in North Carolina too 
long? Repent. Carson is tolerable, but this guy . . . gack.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jun 18 22:11:11 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:11:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <19b.2608c189.2e04fabf@cs.com>

Here is a poem from the WSJ by the wretched Seidel.  I defy Prof. Kellogg to 
defend it.

March

February is over now.
It went more quickly than the other months.
Why that happens, I wonder.
I rarely count past twenty-seven.

My lover has nine breasts or so
And as many fingers and toes.
She says that she has the answer.
Perhaps I should listen to her.

I am considering suicide. 
I will put my head in a lion's mouth
On the first day of March.
My head will go out like a lamb.

Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
Did that happen in March?
I should consult the almanac.

I have made a large down payment
On an expensive Italian sports car.
I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
The installment plan is forgiving.

Once, on a fast motorcycle,
I met my death on the Ides of March.
Someone had switched the warning signs.
Could it have been my rival?

But my lover has had a mastectomy
And now has only eight breasts or less.
She is also running a slight temperature.
Be thankful for small favors.

March is temporary, of course,
And she has taken all her pills.
Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
For death is final, so say they all.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 18 22:28:18 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:28:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <1c0.1aa0e940.2e04fec2@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 10:12:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> 
> March
> 
> February is over now.
> It went more quickly than the other months.
> Why that happens, I wonder.
> I rarely count past twenty-seven.
> 
> My lover has nine breasts or so
> And as many fingers and toes.
> She says that she has the answer.
> Perhaps I should listen to her.
> 
> I am considering suicide. 
> I will put my head in a lion's mouth
> On the first day of March.
> My head will go out like a lamb.
> 
> Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
> As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
> Did that happen in March?
> I should consult the almanac.
> 
> I have made a large down payment
> On an expensive Italian sports car.
> I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
> The installment plan is forgiving.
> 
> Once, on a fast motorcycle,
> I met my death on the Ides of March.
> Someone had switched the warning signs.
> Could it have been my rival?
> 
> But my lover has had a mastectomy
> And now has only eight breasts or less.
> She is also running a slight temperature.
> Be thankful for small favors.
> 
> March is temporary, of course,
> And she has taken all her pills.
> Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
> For death is final, so say they all. 

Not that I was asked, but I find no easy efense 
for this poem. Seidel is all about the odd and 
wry take on things, isn't he?....sometimes 
his work seems nothing like any other poet's...
which is good, at least on the face of it?
And he was born in St. Louis, my hometime.
Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jun 18 22:36:16 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:36:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <c4.eb8a3a1.2e0500a0@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/18/2004 9:29:23 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> In a message dated 6/18/2004 10:12:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
> 
> >> 
>> March
>> 
>> February is over now.
>> It went more quickly than the other months.
>> Why that happens, I wonder.
>> I rarely count past twenty-seven.
>> 
>> My lover has nine breasts or so
>> And as many fingers and toes.
>> She says that she has the answer.
>> Perhaps I should listen to her.
>> 
>> I am considering suicide. 
>> I will put my head in a lion's mouth
>> On the first day of March.
>> My head will go out like a lamb.
>> 
>> Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
>> As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
>> Did that happen in March?
>> I should consult the almanac.
>> 
>> I have made a large down payment
>> On an expensive Italian sports car.
>> I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
>> The installment plan is forgiving.
>> 
>> Once, on a fast motorcycle,
>> I met my death on the Ides of March.
>> Someone had switched the warning signs.
>> Could it have been my rival?
>> 
>> But my lover has had a mastectomy
>> And now has only eight breasts or less.
>> She is also running a slight temperature.
>> Be thankful for small favors.
>> 
>> March is temporary, of course,
>> And she has taken all her pills.
>> Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
>> For death is final, so say they all. 
> 
> 
> Not that I was asked, but I find no easy efense 
> for this poem. Seidel is all about the odd and 
> wry take on things, isn't he?....sometimes 
> his work seems nothing like any other poet's...
> which is good, at least on the face of it?
> And he was born in St. Louis, my hometime.
> Finnegan

Well, maybe Grumman can make sense of it.  I can't.
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Fri Jun 18 22:58:10 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:58:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <1c0.1aa0e940.2e04fec2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c201c455a9$4800c320$303c1c40@Emily>

And he was born in St. Louis, my hometime.
Finnegan  
 
Your "hometime"?
 
I've been to st.louis exactly once, and I didn't much like it.
 
I wrote the following poem, partially about it.
 
Hash Anthem

for Aaron Belz

 

Come closer, Mr. Belz; your sentence

is commuted. Faulkner believed God

was dead, our pursuit of him no

more than "a steeplechase toward nothing,"

a credo hard to follow if you've seen

the Arch all yellowed & pinked, snow

falling carelessly on lonely,

dirty St. Louis (a Coke, not Pepsi, town),

no drugs in sight, the haze not hash

smoke but December fog & half a dozen beers.

Hard to believe that God doesn't want

us to listen to Surfer Rosa, or to bounce,

screaming, however briefly, into Eisenhower

America. Aaron, you prefer Budweiser 

to microbrew & Frost to Stevens but I say

it hasn't a thing to do with your children-

it's drizzly in Missouri, the Mississippi

is risen & you are beautiful, bloodshot

& high as one can get, short of paying

the eight bucks to ride to the top.


*

 

Oh yeah, Aaron Belz is another young poet I think is "good."  

 

Tony 

 

 

 
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jun 19 00:45:19 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:45:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <1e5.234255be.2e04e9aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003801c455b8$3aa65820$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

For some reason I've been avoiding this question. But I like all the ones you've named.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 8:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony


  In a message dated 6/18/2004 1:32:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, antrobin at clipper.net writes:


    The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
    difficult question.


  Snyder, Gary
  Rich, Adrienne
  Levine, Philip
  Gregg, Linda
  Merwin, WS
  Gilbert, Jack

  My odds-on favorite horses 
  (among the living, last I checked).
  Finnegan 
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From tad at opus40.org  Sat Jun 19 00:54:04 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:54:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <96.dd58f4f.2e04f20d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005401c455b9$73ef7480$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

No, upstate. She's from Poughkeepsie.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony


  In a message dated 6/18/2004 4:55:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes:



    I'd put Meg Kearney on a list of young poets whose work I like.

    Love Is a Form of Recklessness
    My mother is AWOL from God. 
    That's what the nuns back 
    in Bristol are whispering, 
    though they're not allowed 
    to speak her name or listen 
    to the radio, which keeps on 
    playing the Summer of '64's
    number-one hit on the pop charts:
    Dione Warwick's "Walk on By." 

    My mother's left hand grips 
    the steering wheel; her right 
    rubs her chin as Dione belts 
    that line, "Oh, foolish pride..." 
    Mother's Levis are still too 
    tight; her hair, snarled above 
    her neck; her heart's a key on 
    a kite string. She left 
    the convent two years before 

    and still has nothing, not even
    her baby. The alto horn cuts 
    in, Dione's back-up, as my 
    mother, twenty-five and broke, 
    drives her parents' Chevy back 
    to Long Island. I'm left in 
    Manhattan, seven days old and 
    clueless but panicky, because 
    I'd sensed her panic as she left, 

    her kisses a pillow pressed to 
    my mouth. Now she wants to change 
    the station, change her mind, 
    because chances are she won't 
    recognize me if, years later, 
    I walk by her on the street. My
    mother's love is the strength 
    to walk and keep on walking, 
    drive and keep driving until 

    her daughter has learned to live 
    without her, until the day 
    a chance meeting is impossible 
    because she is forty-four and soon 
    will be dead. But my mother does 
    not see that far ahead. She merges 
    onto the L.I.E., reaches down, 
    turns up the volume on the radio, 
    and begins to sing along


  Tad, is this the NY School (gen x) 
  moved out to The Island?
  Finnegan 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 06:31:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 06:31:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <00a501c45599$4af87290$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <008001c455e8$9d4b7c00$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Message
Snyder, Gary
Rich, Adrienne
Levine, Philip
Gregg, Linda
Merwin, WS
Gilbert, Jack

My odds-on favorite horses 
(among the living, last I checked).
Finnegan 

Maybe Snyder because one of the earliest environmentalist poets.

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 06:39:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 06:39:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <1df.2372e25b.2e04ed6e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009001c455e9$ba3baaf0$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Tony,
I can't say it's entirely objective. It's a wish as much
as anything else.  I have begun a large project of
aphorisms mixed with short paragraphs taking up this
or that issue related to poetry. One of the aphorisms
goes something like:
One's definition of poetry is one's defense of poetry.
Finnegan 


Might agree if by "poetry" you mean "superior poetry."  My own definition of poetry is not a defense of poetry (that I like), at all--that is, it allows all kinds of poetry I don't like to be called poems--and it excludes works others call poems but I don't yet consider works of art equal in value to poems.  Or am I missing your point?

--Bob G.

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 06:45:35 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 06:45:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <96.dd58f4f.2e04f20d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c455ea$8f13e350$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 6/18/2004 4:55:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes:



    I'd put Meg Kearney on a list of young poets whose work I like.

    Love Is a Form of Recklessness
    My mother is AWOL from God. 
    That's what the nuns back 
    in Bristol are whispering, 
    though they're not allowed 
    to speak her name or listen 
    to the radio, which keeps on 
    playing the Summer of '64's
    number-one hit on the pop charts:
    Dione Warwick's "Walk on By." 

    My mother's left hand grips 
    the steering wheel; her right 
    rubs her chin as Dione belts 
    that line, "Oh, foolish pride..." 
    Mother's Levis are still too 
    tight; her hair, snarled above 
    her neck; her heart's a key on 
    a kite string. She left 
    the convent two years before 

    and still has nothing, not even
    her baby. The alto horn cuts 
    in, Dione's back-up, as my 
    mother, twenty-five and broke, 
    drives her parents' Chevy back 
    to Long Island. I'm left in 
    Manhattan, seven days old and 
    clueless but panicky, because 
    I'd sensed her panic as she left, 

    her kisses a pillow pressed to 
    my mouth. Now she wants to change 
    the station, change her mind, 
    because chances are she won't 
    recognize me if, years later, 
    I walk by her on the street. My
    mother's love is the strength 
    to walk and keep on walking, 
    drive and keep driving until 

    her daughter has learned to live 
    without her, until the day 
    a chance meeting is impossible 
    because she is forty-four and soon 
    will be dead. But my mother does 
    not see that far ahead. She merges 
    onto the L.I.E., reaches down, 
    turns up the volume on the radio, 
    and begins to sing along


  Tad, is this the NY School (gen x) 
  moved out to The Island?
  Finnegan 

  NY School?  Are you nuts, James?!  This is a completely standard Iowa Plainlyric--one salient feature of which is its saying "sympathize with me (and admire how perceptive I am about the quotidian human predicament)" rather than "enjoy this object of beauty."

  --Bob G. 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 06:56:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 06:56:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
References: <19b.2608c189.2e04fabf@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01c455ec$10600eb0$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

It's not some kind of parody?

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:11 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel


  Here is a poem from the WSJ by the wretched Seidel.  I defy Prof. Kellogg to defend it.

  March

  February is over now.
  It went more quickly than the other months.
  Why that happens, I wonder.
  I rarely count past twenty-seven.

  My lover has nine breasts or so
  And as many fingers and toes.
  She says that she has the answer.
  Perhaps I should listen to her.

  I am considering suicide. 
  I will put my head in a lion's mouth
  On the first day of March.
  My head will go out like a lamb.

  Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
  As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
  Did that happen in March?
  I should consult the almanac.

  I have made a large down payment
  On an expensive Italian sports car.
  I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
  The installment plan is forgiving.

  Once, on a fast motorcycle,
  I met my death on the Ides of March.
  Someone had switched the warning signs.
  Could it have been my rival?

  But my lover has had a mastectomy
  And now has only eight breasts or less.
  She is also running a slight temperature.
  Be thankful for small favors.

  March is temporary, of course,
  And she has taken all her pills.
  Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
  For death is final, so say they all. 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 07:03:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 07:03:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
References: <c4.eb8a3a1.2e0500a0@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01c455ed$1a101c10$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

March

February is over now.
It went more quickly than the other months.
Why that happens, I wonder.
I rarely count past twenty-seven.

My lover has nine breasts or so
And as many fingers and toes.
She says that she has the answer.
Perhaps I should listen to her.

I am considering suicide. 
I will put my head in a lion's mouth
On the first day of March.
My head will go out like a lamb.

Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
Did that happen in March?
I should consult the almanac.

I have made a large down payment
On an expensive Italian sports car.
I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
The installment plan is forgiving.

Once, on a fast motorcycle,
I met my death on the Ides of March.
Someone had switched the warning signs.
Could it have been my rival?

But my lover has had a mastectomy
And now has only eight breasts or less.
She is also running a slight temperature.
Be thankful for small favors.

March is temporary, of course,
And she has taken all her pills.
Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
For death is final, so say they all. 


Well, maybe Grumman can make sense of it.  I can't. 


I dan't make sense of it but understand it.  Seems to me just a take on an emotional state.  The persona can't think straight, probably because his girlfriend has breast cancer and just had an operation?  Not my sort of piece.  But not an Iowa Plainlyric.  A kind of Iowa Surrealism--Iowa concerns surrealized.  There's NY school jumpiness to it, too. . . .

--Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 08:06:53 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:06:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <00a501c45599$4af87290$303c1c40@Emily> <008001c455e8$9d4b7c00$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <012301c455f5$eb40d6a0$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Message
Snyder, Gary
Rich, Adrienne
Levine, Philip
Gregg, Linda
Merwin, WS
Gilbert, Jack

My odds-on favorite horses 
(among the living, last I checked).
Finnegan 

  Maybe Snyder because one of the earliest environmentalist poets.

  --Bob G.

  I started to make up a list of highly-thought-of contemporary poets whom I didn't think anyone fifty years from now would care about.  I thought of so many, I gave up.

  --Bob G.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 08:42:40 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:42:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <01f201c4557d$5d8f93a0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <015c01c455fa$ea956220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Addition: by panning known poets you can, if you show why you don't like
> their poetry, educate younger poets--show them things to avoid, etc.
>
> --Bob G.

Final addition (I hope): one needs to provide criticism of poems one admires
as well as criticism of poems one thinks bad, and I do.  The aim would be to
get people reading the better poets, which--if they are indeed the better
poets--will cause their poetry to drive out the poetry of their inferiors.

--Bob G.




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun 19 08:51:38 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:51:38 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <01f201c4557d$5d8f93a0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <015c01c455fa$ea956220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <00a201c455fc$29a05730$db607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

The point, as it has been lenghtily discussed here and there and everywhere
is the usual market. From the moment that anybody can go to the best
publishers and pay to have their books published, then the books circulating
will always be in the average bad.

On the other hand who can judge for others if a book is good or not? If
there was an inter/national team of people deciding what has to be published
or not, we would risk going back to the Brave New World and no one of us
wants anything like this.

Thus read and read, one might find something sometimes here or there,

best, Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


> > Addition: by panning known poets you can, if you show why you don't like
> > their poetry, educate younger poets--show them things to avoid, etc.
> >
> > --Bob G.
>
> Final addition (I hope): one needs to provide criticism of poems one
admires
> as well as criticism of poems one thinks bad, and I do.  The aim would be
to
> get people reading the better poets, which--if they are indeed the better
> poets--will cause their poetry to drive out the poetry of their inferiors.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun 19 08:55:08 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:55:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nikolayev and Mazer
Message-ID: <00b301c455fc$a6c25650$db607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I just mentioned Ben Mazer in connection with Eliot, here is one of his reviews and this time for Philip Nikolayev's new book:

http://jacketmagazine.com/23/mazer-nikol.html

I feature them both on the poets' corner, you would wish to know more:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

"We know that under a revealed image there is another one more faithful to reality, and under that one there is another one, and again another one under the latter. To the true image of that absolute, mysterious reality that no one will ever see. Or maybe to the scanning of any image of whatever reality."
Michelangelo Antonioni, 1964
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From halvard at gmail.com  Sat Jun 19 09:30:55 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 09:30:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
In-Reply-To: <015c01c455fa$ea956220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <01f201c4557d$5d8f93a0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <015c01c455fa$ea956220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <f160a12104061906304d3b6eb9@mail.gmail.com>

And when all the bad poetry is driven out, how will we know
the good?

Hal

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:42:40 -0400, Bob Grumman
<bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
> > Addition: by panning known poets you can, if you show why you don't like
> > their poetry, educate younger poets--show them things to avoid, etc.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> 
> Final addition (I hope): one needs to provide criticism of poems one admires
> as well as criticism of poems one thinks bad, and I do.  The aim would be to
> get people reading the better poets, which--if they are indeed the better
> poets--will cause their poetry to drive out the poetry of their inferiors.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




-- 
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Jun 19 10:25:24 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:25:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <1c0.1aa0e940.2e04fec2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40D41494.12525.23A577@localhost>

>     March
> 
>     February is over now.
>     It went more quickly than the other months.
>     Why that happens, I wonder.
>     I rarely count past twenty-seven.
> 
>     My lover has nine breasts or so
>     And as many fingers and toes.
>     She says that she has the answer.
>     Perhaps I should listen to her.
> 
>     I am considering suicide. 
>     I will put my head in a lion's mouth
>     On the first day of March.
>     My head will go out like a lamb.
> 
>     Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
>     As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
>     Did that happen in March?
>     I should consult the almanac.
> 
>     I have made a large down payment
>     On an expensive Italian sports car.
>     I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
>     The installment plan is forgiving.
> 
>     Once, on a fast motorcycle,
>     I met my death on the Ides of March.
>     Someone had switched the warning signs.
>     Could it have been my rival?
> 
>     But my lover has had a mastectomy
>     And now has only eight breasts or less.
>     She is also running a slight temperature.
>     Be thankful for small favors.
> 
>     March is temporary, of course,
>     And she has taken all her pills.
>     Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
>     For death is final, so say they all. 

On 18 Jun 2004 at 22:28, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Not that I was asked, but I find no easy efense 
> for this poem. Seidel is all about the odd and 
> wry take on things, isn't he?....sometimes 
> his work seems nothing like any other poet's...
> which is good, at least on the face of it?
> And he was born in St. Louis, my hometime.
> Finnegan 

How is that any worse than this:

       Spring
Up, up you go, you must be introduced.

You must learn      belonging to (no-one)

Drenched in the white veil (day)

The circle of minutes pushed gleaming onto your finger.

Gaps pocking the brightness where you try to see
in.

Missing: corners, fields,

completeness: holes growing in it where the eye looks hardest.

Below, his chest, a sacred weightless place

and the small weight of your open hand     on it.

And these legs, look, still yours, after all you've done with them.

Explain     the six missing seeds.

Explain       muzzled.

Explain     tongue breaks     thin fire      in eyes.


Learn what the great garden-(up, up you go)-exteriority,
exhales:

the green  never-the-less       the green who-did-you-say-you-are

and how it seems to stare all the time, that green,


until night blinds it       temporarily.

What is it searching for all the leaves turning towards you.  

Breath the emptiest of the freedoms.

When will they notice the hole in your head     (they won't).

When will they feel for the hole in your chest  
 (never).  

Up, go.  Let being-seen drift over you again, sticky kindness.  

Those wet strangely unstill eyes filling their heads-


thinking or sight?-

all waiting for the true story-

your heart, beating its little song:  explain. . .

Explain       requited

Explain       indeed the blood of your lives I will require

explain the strange weight of meanwhile

and  there exists another death in regards to which

we are not     immortal

variegated     dappled     spangled     intricately wrought

complicated     obstruse     subtle     devious 

scintillating with change and ambiguity ...



                                   






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 10:54:03 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:54:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <01f201c4557d$5d8f93a0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <015c01c455fa$ea956220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00a201c455fc$29a05730$db607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <019201c4560d$451febe0$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Thus read and read, one might find something sometimes here or there,
>
> best, Anny

Read and read--and let others know the good and bad of what you've read, and
why you think it's good or bad.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 10:59:45 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 10:59:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <01f201c4557d$5d8f93a0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <015c01c455fa$ea956220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104061906304d3b6eb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019f01c4560e$10bfc270$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



> And when all the bad poetry is driven out, how will we know
> the good?
> 
> Hal

My blog should determine that.

Seriously, we won't for sure.  But I'm talking about how a given critic can get the poetry HE thinks good to drive out the poetry he thinks bad.  I also assume that he'll only succeed in this if he gives valid reasons for his evaluations--if, that is, he's right.

I should add that "all the bad poetry" will never be driven out; that is only the ideal to be aimed at; nor will everything that replaces what is driven out be good.  We do know from history, though, that a lot of poetry (not really "bad" poetry, just lesser poetry) reigns as "great" but is driven out by poetry proving to be its superior, to the majority of knowledgeable readers.

--Bob G.
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From kellogg at duke.edu  Sat Jun 19 12:36:18 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:36:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <19b.2608c189.2e04fabf@cs.com>
References: <19b.2608c189.2e04fabf@cs.com>
Message-ID: <1087662978.40d46b82cf86e@webmail.duke.edu>

Sam, 

I don't think I need to defend this particular poem, though Bob Grumman has 
already talked a bit about it well.  Anyway, I think the poem's persona is 
fairly interesting, demented and not really self-understanding -- sort of 
paranoid really.  Am I wrong to find the poem a bit funny, though scary -- 
almost an allegory of American recklessness, perhaps?  

That Seidel appears in the Wall Street Journal I find hilarious, because I 
think of him as being as severe on capitalism in his way as Wallace Shawn (when 
he's a playwright, not when he's a cuddly actor).  As James Merrill knew, it's 
hard to be a poet of (apparently) great wealth.  Seidel's chosen not to 
critique that world from outside but to expose it from within, and much more 
brutally than Merrill ever did (JM was always affectionate in his pokes, as 
in "Charles on Fire").  Seidel's work is not pretty, it's not always 
successful, but it's courageous, original, and well worth reading.  It's not 
surprising that many people find him bad.  It violates many norms, especially 
with regard to voice and sincerity.  In fact, I think the problem people have 
with Seidel's work often comes down to the fact that his speakers are so often 
unlikeable, and yet seem to be Seidel.  

I think the totality of "The Cosmos Trilogy" is remarkable, especially the 
latter two books, though he's more easy to get to via some extraordinary poems 
in his earlier works (like "Scotland," "Sunrise," or "That Fall").  

Sam, why refer to "the wretched Seidel," as though channelling the idiom of 
Harold Bloom? 

Best,
David


Quoting Rsgwynn1 at cs.com:

> Here is a poem from the WSJ by the wretched Seidel.  I defy Prof. Kellogg to
> 
> defend it.
> 
> March
> 
> February is over now.
> It went more quickly than the other months.
> Why that happens, I wonder.
> I rarely count past twenty-seven.
> 
> My lover has nine breasts or so
> And as many fingers and toes.
> She says that she has the answer.
> Perhaps I should listen to her.
> 
> I am considering suicide. 
> I will put my head in a lion's mouth
> On the first day of March.
> My head will go out like a lamb.
> 
> Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
> As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
> Did that happen in March?
> I should consult the almanac.
> 
> I have made a large down payment
> On an expensive Italian sports car.
> I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
> The installment plan is forgiving.
> 
> Once, on a fast motorcycle,
> I met my death on the Ides of March.
> Someone had switched the warning signs.
> Could it have been my rival?
> 
> But my lover has had a mastectomy
> And now has only eight breasts or less.
> She is also running a slight temperature.
> Be thankful for small favors.
> 
> March is temporary, of course,
> And she has taken all her pills.
> Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
> For death is final, so say they all.
> 


David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Jun 19 12:46:33 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:46:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <133.3088fa04.2e05c7e9@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/19/2004 11:37:38 AM Central Daylight Time, 
kellogg at duke.edu writes: 
> 
> Sam, 
> 
> I don't think I need to defend this particular poem, though Bob Grumman has 
> already talked a bit about it well.  Anyway, I think the poem's persona is 
> fairly interesting, demented and not really self-understanding -- sort of 
> paranoid really.  Am I wrong to find the poem a bit funny, though scary -- 
> almost an allegory of American recklessness, perhaps?  
> 
> That Seidel appears in the Wall Street Journal I find hilarious, because I 
> think of him as being as severe on capitalism in his way as Wallace Shawn 
> (when 
> he's a playwright, not when he's a cuddly actor).  As James Merrill knew, 
> it's 
> hard to be a poet of (apparently) great wealth.  Seidel's chosen not to 
> critique that world from outside but to expose it from within, and much more 
> 
> brutally than Merrill ever did (JM was always affectionate in his pokes, as 
> in "Charles on Fire").  Seidel's work is not pretty, it's not always 
> successful, but it's courageous, original, and well worth reading.  It's not 
> 
> surprising that many people find him bad.  It violates many norms, 
> especially 
> with regard to voice and sincerity.  In fact, I think the problem people 
> have 
> with Seidel's work often comes down to the fact that his speakers are so 
> often 
> unlikeable, and yet seem to be Seidel.  
> 
> I think the totality of "The Cosmos Trilogy" is remarkable, especially the 
> latter two books, though he's more easy to get to via some extraordinary 
> poems 
> in his earlier works (like "Scotland," "Sunrise," or "That Fall").  
> 
> Sam, why refer to "the wretched Seidel," as though channelling the idiom of 
> Harold Bloom? 
> 
> Best,
> David
> 
> 

Oh well, we've had this exchange before, I guess.  I do find him wretched as 
persona and as poet, but I doubt if I'll convert you.  If he's making some 
kind of implicit attack on capitalism while bragging about his cars and 
motorcycles, I must have missed the subtext.  To be fair, I haven't read Cosmos, just 
the endless sequence of WSJ poems (sent to me by a friend--I don't have enough 
capital to worry with the WSJ) and a couple of earlier books, one of which I 
reviewed a few years back.  If I ever become a poet with great wealth, I'll get 
back to you on how hard it is.

> Quoting Rsgwynn1 at cs.com:
> 
> >Here is a poem from the WSJ by the wretched Seidel.  I defy Prof. Kellogg 
> to
> >
> >defend it.
> >
> >March
> >
> >February is over now.
> >It went more quickly than the other months.
> >Why that happens, I wonder.
> >I rarely count past twenty-seven.
> >
> >My lover has nine breasts or so
> >And as many fingers and toes.
> >She says that she has the answer.
> >Perhaps I should listen to her.
> >
> >I am considering suicide. 
> >I will put my head in a lion's mouth
> >On the first day of March.
> >My head will go out like a lamb.
> >
> >Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
> >As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
> >Did that happen in March?
> >I should consult the almanac.
> >
> >I have made a large down payment
> >On an expensive Italian sports car.
> >I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
> >The installment plan is forgiving.
> >
> >Once, on a fast motorcycle,
> >I met my death on the Ides of March.
> >Someone had switched the warning signs.
> >Could it have been my rival?
> >
> >But my lover has had a mastectomy
> >And now has only eight breasts or less.
> >She is also running a slight temperature.
> >Be thankful for small favors.
> >
> >March is temporary, of course,
> >And she has taken all her pills.
> >Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
> >For death is final, so say they all.
> >
> 
> 
> David Kellogg
> Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
> Duke University
> (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun 19 13:39:02 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:39:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
References: <133.3088fa04.2e05c7e9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <002701c45624$4fb3c790$af1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

There are some clich?s here that I do not like at all:

>Once, on a fast motorcycle,
>I met my death on the Ides of March.

what does he mean, that he is Ceasar with that motorcycle?
and the two last stanzas. There is nothing I like there. It is repulsive. 

With the explanation of Dr. Kellogg I finally understood the story of a yuppie who has a fianc? who is attempting to commit suicide because of mastectomy.

I don't even like Fellini. This is not my genre.
I think it is hard enough to survive, I don't need further monsters populating my imagery.

Even if I gave a high mark to Bret Easton Ellis and his American Psycho. But that is another story.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 6:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Seidel


  In a message dated 6/19/2004 11:37:38 AM Central Daylight Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: 


    Sam, 

    I don't think I need to defend this particular poem, though Bob Grumman has 
    already talked a bit about it well.  Anyway, I think the poem's persona is 
    fairly interesting, demented and not really self-understanding -- sort of 
    paranoid really.  Am I wrong to find the poem a bit funny, though scary -- 
    almost an allegory of American recklessness, perhaps?  

    That Seidel appears in the Wall Street Journal I find hilarious, because I 
    think of him as being as severe on capitalism in his way as Wallace Shawn (when 
    he's a playwright, not when he's a cuddly actor).  As James Merrill knew, it's 
    hard to be a poet of (apparently) great wealth.  Seidel's chosen not to 
    critique that world from outside but to expose it from within, and much more 
    brutally than Merrill ever did (JM was always affectionate in his pokes, as 
    in "Charles on Fire").  Seidel's work is not pretty, it's not always 
    successful, but it's courageous, original, and well worth reading.  It's not 
    surprising that many people find him bad.  It violates many norms, especially 
    with regard to voice and sincerity.  In fact, I think the problem people have 
    with Seidel's work often comes down to the fact that his speakers are so often 
    unlikeable, and yet seem to be Seidel.  

    I think the totality of "The Cosmos Trilogy" is remarkable, especially the 
    latter two books, though he's more easy to get to via some extraordinary poems 
    in his earlier works (like "Scotland," "Sunrise," or "That Fall").  

    Sam, why refer to "the wretched Seidel," as though channelling the idiom of 
    Harold Bloom? 

    Best,
    David




  Oh well, we've had this exchange before, I guess.  I do find him wretched as persona and as poet, but I doubt if I'll convert you.  If he's making some kind of implicit attack on capitalism while bragging about his cars and motorcycles, I must have missed the subtext.  To be fair, I haven't read Cosmos, just the endless sequence of WSJ poems (sent to me by a friend--I don't have enough capital to worry with the WSJ) and a couple of earlier books, one of which I reviewed a few years back.  If I ever become a poet with great wealth, I'll get back to you on how hard it is.


    Quoting Rsgwynn1 at cs.com:

    >Here is a poem from the WSJ by the wretched Seidel.  I defy Prof. Kellogg to
    >
    >defend it.
    >
    >March
    >
    >February is over now.
    >It went more quickly than the other months.
    >Why that happens, I wonder.
    >I rarely count past twenty-seven.
    >
    >My lover has nine breasts or so
    >And as many fingers and toes.
    >She says that she has the answer.
    >Perhaps I should listen to her.
    >
    >I am considering suicide. 
    >I will put my head in a lion's mouth
    >On the first day of March.
    >My head will go out like a lamb.
    >
    >Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
    >As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
    >Did that happen in March?
    >I should consult the almanac.
    >
    >I have made a large down payment
    >On an expensive Italian sports car.
    >I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
    >The installment plan is forgiving.
    >
    >Once, on a fast motorcycle,
    >I met my death on the Ides of March.
    >Someone had switched the warning signs.
    >Could it have been my rival?
    >
    >But my lover has had a mastectomy
    >And now has only eight breasts or less.
    >She is also running a slight temperature.
    >Be thankful for small favors.
    >
    >March is temporary, of course,
    >And she has taken all her pills.
    >Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
    >For death is final, so say they all.
    >


    David Kellogg
    Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
    Duke University
    (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun 19 13:59:45 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:59:45 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] from Frederick Pollack
Message-ID: <005901c45627$351505e0$af1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Copying from Frederick Pollack's interesting essay: Influences, soon to be publised in German translation in Die Gazette (Munich), and that he kindly sent over to me to read

by the Pole, Zbigniew Herbert:

Why the Classics

1

            in the fourth book of the Peloponnesian War

            Thucydides tells among other things

            the story of his unsuccessful expedition

 

            among long speeches of chiefs

            battles sieges plague

            dense net of intrigues of diplomatic endeavors

            the episode is like a pin

            in a forest

 

            the Greek colony Amphipolis

            fell into the hands of Brasidos

            because Thucydides was late with relief

 

            for this he paid his native city

            with lifelong exile

 

            exiles of all times

            know what price that is

 

2

 

            generals of the most recent wars

            if a similar affair happens to them

            whine on their knees before posterity

            praise their heroism and innocence

 

            they accuse their subordinates

            envious colleagues

            unfavorable winds

 

            Thucydides says only

            that he had seven ships

            it was winter

            and he sailed quickly

 

3

 

            If art for its subject

            will have a broken jar

            a small broken soul

            with a great self-pity

 

            what will remain after us

            will be like lovers' weeping

            in a small dirty hotel

            when wallpaper dawns
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 19 15:24:28 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:24:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <018e01c45563$d9296af0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV62aUPvhJnH0003c471@hotmail.com>

Bob and Tony,

I like to re-title the posts to reflect what's being discussed...

Anyway, in my experience as an editor and teacher, what promising poets most
need is praise.  95% praise and at most, 5% gentle criticism.  This will
make them better poets.  Nearly all poets are insecure, self-doubting
types-- why most of them write poetry (of course, with many exceptions, LH
Bob).

As for reviews, part of the obligation of the reviewer is to point out
deficiencies, but the Roman Circus always likes the lions part.

It's human nature, unfortunately.

The best critic is one who loves the poet about which he writes, loves her
enough to point out defects without forgetting the accomplishment, the joy
of reading her.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Feature in Tryst....


| > "Ah, you don't think criticism might help a poor poet become a good
| > poet?
| > Not that that's the only reason I ever slam a poem.  Another reason is
| > to
| > clear the way for what I deem good poetry."
|
|
| > To answer your question, No, of course not.  The "poor poets" you slam
| > are generally well-established poets with plenty of publications.
| > Criticism of any sort is not likely to substantially (or even a little
| > bit) change they way they write poetry.  Do you think (to pull a name
| > out of a hat) Sharon Olds reads William Logan's review of her new book
| > and then says "Oh my!  He's right!  I need to write better poems!"
|
| No, but I'm sure any good poet reading intelligent criticism of his work
may
| be influenced by it, regardless of how recognized he is.  For instance, if
| someone sneered that I'd written another poem using technique Q or
| discussing subject J, it well might bring me up short, and realize I
should
| try a new technique or subject.
|
| > Criticism (though maybe not "slamming" a poem) might be useful for the
| > young poet who's just beginning to learn his craft, but that's not
| > really what we're discussing here.
| >
| > Finally, I don't understand your "Another reason" above.  How does
| > negative criticism of "bad poetry" clear the way for good poetry?  I
| > don't know what that means--if you criticize loudly and vocally enough,
| > will the bad poetry "step aside" and let the good poems through?
|
| No, if you criticize intelligently enough, you may influence editors to
| publish poets you find inferior less often and poets you find superior
more
| often.  You may also encourage others to make their negative views of bad
| poetry known, which may influence editors to accept less bad poetry.  You
| may also cause hypersensitive bad poets to get drunk and stop writing
poetry
| for a while.
|
| --Bob G.
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 19 15:27:10 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:27:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
References: <002501c4555a$1fd46f90$303c1c40@Emily> <012c01c45576$5fc5b1b0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV59I4TY7zD50003c7f6@hotmail.com>

Dear Old Mole,

I find this plebeian and prosaic.  But no accounting for tastes.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony


| I'd put Meg Kearney on a list of young poets whose work I like.
| 
| Love Is a Form of Recklessness
| My mother is AWOL from God. 
| That's what the nuns back 
| in Bristol are whispering, 
| though they're not allowed 
| to speak her name or listen 
| to the radio, which keeps on 
| playing the Summer of '64's
| number-one hit on the pop charts:
| Dione Warwick's "Walk on By." 
| 
| My mother's left hand grips 
| the steering wheel; her right 
| rubs her chin as Dione belts 
| that line, "Oh, foolish pride..." 
| Mother's Levis are still too 
| tight; her hair, snarled above 
| her neck; her heart's a key on 
| a kite string. She left 
| the convent two years before 
| 
| and still has nothing, not even
| her baby. The alto horn cuts 
| in, Dione's back-up, as my 
| mother, twenty-five and broke, 
| drives her parents' Chevy back 
| to Long Island. I'm left in 
| Manhattan, seven days old and 
| clueless but panicky, because 
| I'd sensed her panic as she left, 
| 
| her kisses a pillow pressed to 
| my mouth. Now she wants to change 
| the station, change her mind, 
| because chances are she won't 
| recognize me if, years later, 
| I walk by her on the street. My
| mother's love is the strength 
| to walk and keep on walking, 
| drive and keep driving until 
| 
| her daughter has learned to live 
| without her, until the day 
| a chance meeting is impossible 
| because she is forty-four and soon 
| will be dead. But my mother does 
| not see that far ahead. She merges 
| onto the L.I.E., reaches down, 
| turns up the volume on the radio, 
| and begins to sing along.
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| ----- Original Message ----- 
| From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
| To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
| Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:31 PM
| Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony
| 
| 
| > The question I posed to the list was to name living, writing poets that
| > people admired, liked, thought were "good," not "major" or destined to
| > last, etc.  
| > 
| > The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
| > difficult question.  It occurred to me while thinking about my own
| > favorites, that I'd have to strike two from my list--Koch,
| > Ammons--because they have both recently died.
| > 
| > So my short list of poets whose work I seek out, enjoy, think is "good"
| > would include:  Gabriel Gudding, Harryette Mullen, and perhaps Brenda
| > Hillman.  Someone else mentioned Walcott, who I'd also agree is a good
| > poet.
| > 
| > There are also many younger poets whose work is not as widely available
| > who I like a great deal.  Pick up a copy of _The Canary_ if you want to
| > see what I mean.
| > 
| > Tony 
| > 
| > _______________________________________________
| > New-Poetry mailing list
| > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| > 
| > 
| 
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| 


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 19 15:31:48 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:31:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Finnegan's List
References: <1e5.234255be.2e04e9aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV25trUVYKkp0003c575@hotmail.com>

Snyder's done.  Done, done.  His opus magnus, _Mountain and Rivers without
End_ was a major disappointment to me.

Yes, I have a hard-bound, autographed copy.

"Bubbs Creek Haircut" is still my favorite of his.

Merwin I can't stomach.  Get to the point, Dear W.S.

I love Levine's substance but find his form awfully prosaic.  Always good to
hear at a reading, however.

I have a new respect for Rich after reading her earlier work.

Gilbert and Gregg I don't know well enough to offer an opinion, but there
you go again, educating me.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Name 'em-- response to Tony


In a message dated 6/18/2004 1:32:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
antrobin at clipper.net writes:


The few responses it's received so far seem to indicate that this is a
difficult question.


Snyder, Gary
Rich, Adrienne
Levine, Philip
Gregg, Linda
Merwin, WS
Gilbert, Jack

My odds-on favorite horses
(among the living, last I checked).
Finnegan


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 19 15:35:16 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:35:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
References: <19b.2608c189.2e04fabf@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV61C81TbdkS000125f3@hotmail.com>

Hoo, hoo!

The NY School meets Billy Collins.

--CE
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:11 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel


  Here is a poem from the WSJ by the wretched Seidel.  I defy Prof. Kellogg to defend it.

  March

  February is over now.
  It went more quickly than the other months.
  Why that happens, I wonder.
  I rarely count past twenty-seven.

  My lover has nine breasts or so
  And as many fingers and toes.
  She says that she has the answer.
  Perhaps I should listen to her.

  I am considering suicide. 
  I will put my head in a lion's mouth
  On the first day of March.
  My head will go out like a lamb.

  Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
  As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
  Did that happen in March?
  I should consult the almanac.

  I have made a large down payment
  On an expensive Italian sports car.
  I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
  The installment plan is forgiving.

  Once, on a fast motorcycle,
  I met my death on the Ides of March.
  Someone had switched the warning signs.
  Could it have been my rival?

  But my lover has had a mastectomy
  And now has only eight breasts or less.
  She is also running a slight temperature.
  Be thankful for small favors.

  March is temporary, of course,
  And she has taken all her pills.
  Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
  For death is final, so say they all. 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jun 19 17:06:32 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:06:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <018e01c45563$d9296af0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV62aUPvhJnH0003c471@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <022c01c45641$4e1ea270$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I think you're over-simplifying the situation, CE.  Here's a specific
question: what should a writer interested in the health of American poetry
do about the distribution of grants to American poets--Guggenheims,
MacArthurs, etc--if he believe, as I do, that they go almost entirely to
mediocrities, submediocrities, or (rarely) former geniuses?  Sure, if you're
a tenured professor, or the like, confident of having time for your poetry,
you can shrugged your shoulders philosophically.  But what if you're not?

Do you think appreciative essays on the value of overlooked poets will be
enough?  Do you really think scathing attacks on the undeserving too
indecorous to consider doing?

--Bob G.




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 19 22:47:21 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:47:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <018e01c45563$d9296af0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV62aUPvhJnH0003c471@hotmail.com> <022c01c45641$4e1ea270$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV49KJithz7J0000caf4@hotmail.com>

God, Bob, I'm out of the loop.

As I said in my interview, I consider myself a "mid-tier net poet."

To follow the money trail to D.C. and NY takes a lot of ambition.

"Everything that rises must converge."  --O'Connor

Because I'm someone just foolish enough to believe in heaven, I'm not
terribly concerned with justice or fame down here.

You want to have some fun?  Go look at the Yale Series of Younger Poets
list.  Out of 50 there's four memorable.  Merwin, Strand, and two others I
forget.

Borges didn't get the Nobel but Toni Morrison did.

Perhaps you should re-read Congreve's _The Way of the World._

Else become a Christian.  Hoo hoo!

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement


| I think you're over-simplifying the situation, CE.  Here's a specific
| question: what should a writer interested in the health of American poetry
| do about the distribution of grants to American poets--Guggenheims,
| MacArthurs, etc--if he believe, as I do, that they go almost entirely to
| mediocrities, submediocrities, or (rarely) former geniuses?  Sure, if
you're
| a tenured professor, or the like, confident of having time for your
poetry,
| you can shrugged your shoulders philosophically.  But what if you're not?
|
| Do you think appreciative essays on the value of overlooked poets will be
| enough?  Do you really think scathing attacks on the undeserving too
| indecorous to consider doing?
|
| --Bob G.
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From MillB at aol.com  Sun Jun 20 00:01:57 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:01:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <1c9.1ace2182.2e066635@aol.com>

Hello all,
 
I, too, am late in the game of this thread.
 
Now, however, I would like to comment.  While I think it  is fabulous to have 
a clique. . .and to follow a school where you all write the  same poems and 
drink the same brand of whiskey. .. I think the buck stops with  when. .. how 
can I say this without sounding like an absolute Noel Coward-type  bitch?  Let 
me see. . . I think the problem arises when judge A sleeps with  contestant B 
and then selects all of his friends. . .for every prize and when  those 
friends grow into power, they select him as a pay back.
 
It's not just a matter of Pound chooseing Eliot for publication in a  
magazine or helping to edit The Wasteland; no, it is much more incipid  than that: it 
is A helping B not because of the quality of the work or because  it will 
help create great writing but because he owes B a favor.  
 
Again and again, I see the same damn mediocre names as winners of major  
prizes, then, the next time, as judges. Trading favors for mediocrity. Such  a 
damn shame.  Especially when there ARE really great writers out there who  are 
dismissed because they do not play the game or are not in the academic world  or 
who refused to sleep with Poet A or B or whatever.
 
Mill
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jun 20 00:14:42 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:14:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <156.37fea6e9.2e066932@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/19/2004 11:03:47 PM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com 
writes: 
> 
> Again and again, I see the same damn mediocre names as winners of major 
> prizes, then, the next time, as judges. Trading favors for mediocrity. Such a 
> damn shame.  Especially when there ARE really great writers out there who are 
> dismissed because they do not play the game or are not in the academic world or 
> who refused to sleep with Poet A or B or whatever.
>   
>  Mill
> 
Thus was it ever, and is it something we should really worry about?  The 
world of prizes and awards for poetry is fairly corrupt.  Gosh.  I mean, I'd love 
to get my share of the money, but how could I live with myself if I knew I 
hadn't got it on the up-and-up?  I'd probably find a way.  I think the fact that 
Kay Ryan just got a $100,000 award from Poetry should be consolation.  Kay has 
been teaching in juniorcollegeworld for many years and has somehow found time 
to write poems that a lot of people love. She gives us hope.
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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Jun 20 01:08:03 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:08:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
In-Reply-To: <156.37fea6e9.2e066932@cs.com>
Message-ID: <CEA2A71C-C277-11D8-B0D3-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 12:14 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> Thus was it ever, and is it something we should really worry about?? 
> The world of prizes and awards for poetry is fairly corrupt.? Gosh.? I 
> mean, I'd love to get my share of the money, but how could I live with 
> myself if I knew I hadn't got it on the up-and-up?? I'd probably find 
> a way.? I think the fact that Kay Ryan just got a $100,000 award from 
> Poetry should be consolation.? Kay has been teaching in 
> juniorcollegeworld for many years and has somehow found time to write 
> poems that a lot of people love. She gives us hope.

Agreed.  But then, Sam, you've had some share of prize money, though 
not necessarily a fair share.  So have I.  So have many of us here.  I 
was traveling and no-mail for a couple of weeks, and I'm probably being 
foolhardy chiming in when I don't know where this thread's been.

I was about to mention C.D. Wright and Pamela Alexander as poets whose 
work I always look forward to reading; then I read C.E. Chaffin's 
dismissal of Yale Younger Poets and was reminded that most people on 
list probably haven't read Alexander.  There's more talent and more 
genius out there than any of us can keep track of.  It's nasty that 
there's so much bad poetry clogging the pipes, and the current fashions 
are just as idiotic as they've always been.  We suddenly have 
communication squared, cubed: we could use it for good poems.  This 
won't last forever.

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jun 20 01:26:15 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:26:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <7f.47f823e3.2e0679f7@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/20/2004 12:08:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: 
> On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 12:14 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> >Thus was it ever, and is it something we should really worry about?  
> >The world of prizes and awards for poetry is fairly corrupt.  Gosh.  I 
> >mean, I'd love to get my share of the money, but how could I live with 
> >myself if I knew I hadn't got it on the up-and-up?  I'd probably find 
> >a way.  I think the fact that Kay Ryan just got a $100,000 award from 
> >Poetry should be consolation.  Kay has been teaching in 
> >juniorcollegeworld for many years and has somehow found time to write 
> >poems that a lot of people love. She gives us hope.
> 
> Agreed.  But then, Sam, you've had some share of prize money, though 
> not necessarily a fair share.  So have I.  So have many of us here.  I 
> was traveling and no-mail for a couple of weeks, and I'm probably being 
> foolhardy chiming in when I don't know where this thread's been.
> 

I have been publishing poetry since 1968, and I have, exclusive of local 
institutional awards, won a total of $5000, which comes out to about $140 per 
year.  Not that I'm complaining--the check was nice.

> I was about to mention C.D. Wright and Pamela Alexander as poets whose 
> work I always look forward to reading; then I read C.E. Chaffin's 
> dismissal of Yale Younger Poets and was reminded that most people on 
> list probably haven't read Alexander.  


C. D. Wright?

In 1991, she received a Fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts 
which prompted a move to Mexico. She was awarded the Witter Bynner Prize for 
Poetry from the American Academy and Institute of Arts and Letters in 1986, and 
in 1987, Fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation and the Bunting Institute. 
A second NEA was awarded in 1988, as well as a GE Award for literary essay. 
She was a 1989 recipient of the Whiting Writers' Award and a 1990 recipient of 
the Rhode Island Governor's Award for the Arts. In 1994, she was named State 
Poet of Rhode Island, a five-year post. On a fellowship from writers from the 
Lila Wallace-Reader's Digest Foundation, Wright curated "a walk-in book of 
Arkansas" a multi-media exhibition which toured her native state for a two-year 
period. She was Visiting Professor at the University of Iowa Writer's Workshop 
in the Fall of 1997. The University of Arkansas presented her with the Citation 
of Distinguished Alumni in 1998. In 1999, she was awarded a Lannan Literary 
Award, and an artist award from the Foundation for Contemporary Performance 
Arts. With poet, Forrest Gander, she edits Lost Roads Publishers. Currently, 
Wright is undertaking a new collaboration with photographer, Deborah Luster at 
several prisons in Louisiana. Luster and Wright won this year's Dorothea 
Lange-Paul Taylor Prize for their work-in-progress from the Center for Documentary 
Studies at Duke University. Their project is titled One Big Self: Prisoners of 
Louisiana and is scheduled for publication from the University of Texas Press, 
2002, Bill Wittliff, series editor.  

Elizabeth Alexander?

She has received a National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship, a Pushcart 
Prize, the Quantrell Award for Excellence in Undergraduate Teaching at the 
University of Chicago, and the George Kent Award, given by Gwendolyn Brooks. 
Alexander has taught at Haverford College, the University of Chicago, the University 
of Pennsylvania, and Smith College, where she was Grace Hazard Conkling 
Poet-in-Residence and first director of the Poetry Center at Smith College. She has 
travelled extensively within the U.S. and abroad, giving poetry readings and 
lecturing on African-American literature and culture. In the summers, she is a 
faculty member at Cave Canem Poetry Workshop. She is presently a fellow at the 
Whitney Humanities Center at Yale University. 


There's more talent and more 
> 
> genius out there than any of us can keep track of.  It's nasty that 
> there's so much bad poetry clogging the pipes, and the current fashions 
> are just as idiotic as they've always been.  We suddenly have 
> communication squared, cubed: we could use it for good poems.  This 
> won't last forever.
> 
> Wendy
> 
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> 
> Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.
> 
> 
> 
So what's your point?  Wright and Alexander have been overlooked?  I should 
be overlooked this way.  Overlook me.  Please!













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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Jun 20 01:44:05 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:44:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
In-Reply-To: <7f.47f823e3.2e0679f7@cs.com>
Message-ID: <D7A0E01B-C27C-11D8-B0D3-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>


On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 01:26 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Elizabeth Alexander?

No, Pamela Alexander.  Yale Younger Poet 1984.  Wonderful quirky poet 
of large imagination.

Who knows her work?  Who reads all this stuff?  Nobody.

Wendy



>
Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jun 20 02:38:21 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:38:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <160.30f32ed6.2e068add@cs.com>

Pamela Alexander won the Yale Younger Poet award in 1984 for Navigable 
Waterways (1985) and has published poems in The New Yorker and Atlantic. She has 
been awarded fellowships from the Bunting Institute of Radcliffe College, the 
MacDowell Colony, the Ucross Foundation, and the Fine Arts Work Center; she 
taught at the Iowa Writers? Workshop in 1989. She is the poetry columnist for the 
Boston Book Review. 

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jun 20 02:41:45 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:41:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <156.380099c2.2e068ba9@cs.com>

Maxine Kumin is on Writer's Almanac today.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jun 20 02:52:58 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:52:58 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <156.380099c2.2e068ba9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <006401c45693$39212030$c4607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A good one, thanks,
and happy Father's Day, here is Garrison Keillor:

Fathers in the United States often get the shorter end of the stick. Mother's Day is the busiest day of the year for florists, restaurants, and long distance phone companies. Father's day is the day on which the most collect phone calls are made. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 8:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement


  Maxine Kumin is on Writer's Almanac today. 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 07:49:19 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 07:49:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <002601c4555a$25911820$303c1c40@Emily> <018e01c45563$d9296af0$5defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV62aUPvhJnH0003c471@hotmail.com> <022c01c45641$4e1ea270$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <BAY18-DAV49KJithz7J0000caf4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c456bc$a1a82c10$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> God, Bob, I'm out of the loop.
>
> As I said in my interview, I consider myself a "mid-tier net poet."
>
> To follow the money trail to D.C. and NY takes a lot of ambition.

CE, it isn't a matter of following a money trail, just of trying to get SOME
money go to deserving poets.

> "Everything that rises must converge."  --O'Connor
>
> Because I'm someone just foolish enough to believe in heaven, I'm not
> terribly concerned with justice or fame down here.

You may want to rethink that.  I mean, don't you want me to have ANY
happiness before I trundled off to Dante's fourth circle?

> You want to have some fun?  Go look at the Yale Series of Younger Poets
> list.  Out of 50 there's four memorable.  Merwin, Strand, and two others I
> forget.

Right.  And neither of them seems much to me.

> Borges didn't get the Nobel but Toni Morrison did.

He did okay, though.

> Perhaps you should re-read Congreve's _The Way of the World._

Relevance?  (I can't remember anything about it except that it was funny.)

> Else become a Christian.  Hoo hoo!

That might not work.  To my knowledge, God Himself never defined Heaven in
his Writings, so it may be that the portion of it a given sinner is assigned
to will have a value for him equal to the value, for him, of the world the
sinner has left.  In other words, the better the sinner helped make his
mortal world, the better Heaven he'll spend eternity in--by his standards.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 08:01:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:01:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <1c9.1ace2182.2e066635@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006701c456be$470fcf90$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Hello all,

  I, too, am late in the game of this thread.

  Now, however, I would like to comment.  While I think it is fabulous to have a clique. . .and to follow a school where you all write the same poems and drink the same brand of whiskey. ..

  Well, my hope would be that a poet would find more than one school to be active in, and familiarize himself with all schools.  Very difficult to do.  

  --Bob G.

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 08:06:15 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:06:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <156.37fea6e9.2e066932@cs.com>
Message-ID: <007301c456be$fe7ebbf0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


    Again and again, I see the same damn mediocre names as winners of major prizes, then, the next time, as judges. Trading favors for mediocrity. Such a damn shame.  Especially when there ARE really great writers out there who are dismissed because they do not play the game or are not in the academic world or who refused to sleep with Poet A or B or whatever.
      
    Mill


  Thus was it ever, and is it something we should really worry about?  The world of prizes and awards for poetry is fairly corrupt.  Gosh.  I mean, I'd love to get my share of the money, but how could I live with myself if I knew I hadn't got it on the up-and-up?  I'd probably find a way.  I think the fact that Kay Ryan just got a $100,000 award from Poetry should be consolation.  Kay has been teaching in juniorcollegeworld for many years and has somehow found time to write poems that a lot of people love. She gives us hope. 

  Not those of us who would like to see money go to someone writing poetry that is not knownstream--though, sure, if money only goes to knownstreamers, it's nice that it go to a good knwnstreamer, if Ryan is.  (I don't know her work, but I know--yes, Professor Graham, without even having read it, or even about it, I'm sure--that it is conventional.)

  --Bob G.


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 08:26:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:26:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <7f.47f823e3.2e0679f7@cs.com>
Message-ID: <008501c456c1$c3938b80$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


I have been publishing poetry since 1968, and I have, exclusive of local institutional awards, won a total of $5000, which comes out to about $140 per year.  Not that I'm complaining--the check was nice.

RS Gwynne

That's something like $4000 more in poetry awards than all the 50 or so poets in my school of poetry have taken in since 1968 (though only two or three of us were active back then)
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 08:28:52 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:28:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <CEA2A71C-C277-11D8-B0D3-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <009301c456c2$275e1d60$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


I was about to mention C.D. Wright 

Hey, will someone do me a big favor and straighten out these $%#$!!$ Wrights for me.  How many are there, a hundred?  I know James, and now I know Fightin' Franz, his son, right?  I'm out of it from there.  I thought I knew who C.D. was, but isn't there another one with initials, and Charles?

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun 20 09:49:21 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 09:49:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <19a.26030df3.2e06efe1@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/19/2004 10:26:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

I'd answer "Self-evidently, below is better." 
But I didn't bring up Graham?
Finnegan

> How is that any worse than this:
> 
>     Spring
> Up, up you go, you must be introduced.
> 
> You must learn    belonging to (no-one)
> 
> Drenched in the white veil (day)
> 
> The circle of minutes pushed gleaming onto your finger.
> 
> Gaps pocking the brightness where you try to see
> in.
> 
> Missing: corners, fields,
> 
> completeness: holes growing in it where the eye looks hardest.
> 
> Below, his chest, a sacred weightless place
> 
> and the small weight of your open hand    on it.
> 
> And these legs, look, still yours, after all you've done with them.
> 
> Explain    the six missing seeds.
> 
> Explain     muzzled.
> 
> Explain    tongue breaks    thin fire    in eyes.
> 
> 
> Learn what the great garden-(up, up you go)-exteriority,
> exhales:
> 
> the green  never-the-less     the green who-did-you-say-you-are
> 
> and how it seems to stare all the time, that green,
> 
> 
> until night blinds it     temporarily.
> 
> What is it searching for all the leaves turning towards you.  
> 
> Breath the emptiest of the freedoms.
> 
> When will they notice the hole in your head    (they won't).
> 
> When will they feel for the hole in your chest  
> (never).  
> 
> Up, go.  Let being-seen drift over you again, sticky kindness.  
> 
> Those wet strangely unstill eyes filling their heads-
> 
> 
> thinking or sight?-
> 
> all waiting for the true story-
> 
> your heart, beating its little song:  explain. . .
> 
> Explain     requited
> 
> Explain     indeed the blood of your lives I will require
> 
> explain the strange weight of meanwhile
> 
> and  there exists another death in regards to which
> 
> we are not    immortal
> 
> variegated    dappled    spangled    intricately wrought
> 
> complicated    obstruse    subtle    devious 
> 
> scintillating with change and ambiguity ...
> 
> 

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun 20 10:14:25 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:14:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ryan question
Message-ID: <b2.2d841b3e.2e06f5c1@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/20/2004 12:15:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> I think the fact that Kay Ryan just got a $100,000 award from Poetry should 
> be consolation.  Kay has been teaching in juniorcollegeworld for many years 
> and has somehow found time to write poems that a lot of people love. She 
> gives us hope. 

http://www.myhero.com/myhero/hero.asp?hero=Kay_Ryan_Poetry_AP

Sam,
I can't say I'm completely up to speed with work, but the poems
I]ve seem strike me as akin to skinny free verse
that happens to play with rhymes. Would you say
she's a formalist?
Finnegan
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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Jun 20 11:00:12 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 11:00:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
In-Reply-To: <160.30f32ed6.2e068add@cs.com>
Message-ID: <87A684D6-C2CA-11D8-BE0E-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 02:38 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> Pamela Alexander won the Yale Younger Poet award in 1984 for Navigable 
> Waterways (1985) and has published poems in The New Yorker and 
> Atlantic. She has been awarded fellowships from the Bunting Institute 
> of Radcliffe College, the MacDowell Colony, the Ucross Foundation, and 
> the Fine Arts Work Center; she taught at the Iowa Writers Workshop in 
> 1989. She is the poetry columnist for the Boston Book Review.

She also won the Iowa Prize for her second book.  Your source missed 
that, and probably more.  I don't think she's writing for BBR anymore, 
but I could be wrong about that.  Haven't seen it for many months.

My point was simply that a lot of wonderful poetry goes unread, prizes 
notwithstanding.  Not an earth-shaking observation, but there it is.

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Only the defeated do not dance.
--Miyazaki
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jun 20 12:01:20 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:01:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ryan question
Message-ID: <46.514a0285.2e070ed0@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/20/2004 9:15:30 AM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> Sam,
> I can't say I'm completely up to speed with work, but the poems
> I]ve seem strike me as akin to skinny free verse
> that happens to play with rhymes. Would you say
> she's a formalist?
> Finnegan

I wouldn't, but some would.  I just find her wonderfully quirky.  Or quirkily 
wonderful.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jun 20 12:04:16 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:04:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <161.30c380bf.2e070f80@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/20/2004 7:29:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Hey, will someone do me a big favor and straighten out these $%#$!!$ 
> Wrights for me.  How many are there, a hundred?  I know James, and now I know 
> Fightin' Franz, his son, right?  I'm out of it from there.  I thought I knew who 
> C.D. was, but isn't there another one with initials, and Charles?
>   
>  --Bob G.
> 
There's a Carolyne, I believe.
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From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu  Sun Jun 20 12:20:13 2004
From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 11:20:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
In-Reply-To: <D7A0E01B-C27C-11D8-B0D3-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
References: <7f.47f823e3.2e0679f7@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040620110711.01044730@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 01:44 AM 6/20/2004 -0400, Wendy Battin wrote:

>On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 01:26 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>
>>Elizabeth Alexander?
>
>No, Pamela Alexander.  Yale Younger Poet 1984.  Wonderful quirky poet of 
>large imagination.
>
>Who knows her work?  Who reads all this stuff?  Nobody.
>
>Wendy

I do.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu

                 The Way Down
                   (for Amelia Earhart)

I.

All her instruments read zero.
The cockpit is filling with water.
She crawls onto the fuselage, knowing
it is done, the flight she started from New York
and another one as well. Lying on the plane's tinny
wing, hollow as the bones of a bird, she looks up
at the last cloud she had fuel to fly through
and tells herself: it's a warm night,
don't shiver.
                  The tail tilts up and she slips
into the sea, her leather jacket heavy instantly.
When she knows it is time to take
a first last breath of water
she makes it deep,
writhes,

and loosens,
sways down through colored
layers to the mud. White
crabs and bottom-feeding fish
take back the miles, one by one,
and seaweed twists in wreaths around
the rusting struts and bright wings
she rode down.

II.

My arms try their reach
toward books on upper shelves
instead of stars,
but I am drawn
by the pilot at the bottom of the sea.
I want to remember her
gently, find
her lack of fear, shape
my years into a flight
that embraces the world
and let go only when
there is no other way.
Before what is myself becomes
stiff and glazed, I will
talk to myself, to you; we are
falling together.

Pamela Alexander,
         in _Navigable Waterways_



From Faustina1 at aol.com  Sun Jun 20 13:14:35 2004
From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:14:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <0202185D.35C1CABA.023799CC@aol.com>

Wow, what a good poem.  I am going to look up Pamela Alexander and read the rest of that book.  

I think there are just so incredibly many poets that there is no way we can connect with all of them.  We "meet" them in various ways like this.  

And as for reviewing and "improvement"--I have great respect for reviewers who find the value in something that is not on their usual wavelength.  

Janet 


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 20 13:36:59 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:36:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Underwhelmed by Alexander
References: <7f.47f823e3.2e0679f7@cs.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040620110711.01044730@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV414UfeOxXE0003d637@hotmail.com>

Oh, I think this very mediocre.  Don't want to read what Bob says about it.


|                  The Way Down
|                    (for Amelia Earhart)
|
| I.
|
| All her instruments read zero. {nice homage to Auden/Yeats}
| The cockpit is filling with water.
| She crawls onto the fuselage, knowing
| it is done, the flight she started from New York
| [and another one as well.] Lying on the plane's tinny {unnecessary}
| wing, [hollow as the bones of a bird,] she looks up {pure cliche'}
| at the last cloud she had fuel to fly through
| and tells herself: it's a warm night,
| don't shiver. {skirting cliche'}
|                   The tail tilts up and she slips
| into the sea, her leather jacket heavy instantly.
| When she knows it is time to take
| a first last breath of water
| she makes it deep,
| writhes,
|
| and loosens,
| sways down through colored
| layers to the mud. White
| crabs and bottom-feeding fish
| take back the miles, one by one, {good line}
| and seaweed twists in wreaths around
| the rusting struts and bright wings
| she rode down.
|
| II.
|
| My arms try their reach
| toward books on upper shelves
| instead of stars,
| but I am drawn
| by the pilot at the bottom of the sea.
| I want to remember her
| gently, find
| her lack of fear, shape
| my years into a flight
| that embraces the world
| and let go only when
| there is no other way.
| Before what is myself becomes
| stiff and glazed, I will
| talk to myself, to you; we are
| falling together. {err... yuk?  Weak confessional conclusion?  Should have
stopped with Amelia's story.}
|
| Pamela Alexander,
|          in _Navigable Waterways_
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 20 13:40:43 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:40:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A little light take on Stevens
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV66YUVDCEmD0003a566@hotmail.com>

by Miriam Kotzin (a new net acquaintance)

A Virtually True Account of How Wallace Stevens Wrote  "Thirteen Ways of
Looking at a Blackbird"

Stevens sat at his desk at Hartford Accident and Indemnity, leaned back in
his worn leather chair and rocked deliberately, listening to the
comfortable, familiar sound of ancient springs bearing his considerable
weight.  He sighed.  He did not know which he preferred, the sound of the
springs or the silence that followed.  He jotted a note on his yellow legal
pad:  "I do not know which to prefer," he wrote, "the springs creaking or
just after."  That?s the ticket, he thought, a sly reference to Keats?
Grecian Urn, his unheard music.  Those Harvard years, well, even without the
degree, he?d got something.  But "springs creaking"?  He?d leave it at that
for now.

He swiveled towards the window.  It was snowing, and, worse, from the looks
of it, it was going to snow.  He leaned back, folded his hands on his paunch
and closed his eyes, conjuring a landscape.  What landscape?  Key West?
Palm trees, sun glinting on cerulean seas?  A rivulet of sweat stings his
eye.  Not Key West, then, today.  No, today it must be snowing.  A snowy
landscape.  A mountain perhaps?  Yes.  A mountain.  A snowy mountain.

He leaned forward and wrote it down.  "One snowy mountain."  He would stay
at his club for dinner instead of dealing with Elsie, who was always
irritating, incessantly interrupting him when he was writing. Settled.  He?d
stay in town. Now content, expansive, he drew a line through "One" and wrote
above it, "Twenty." "Twenty mountains?"  Then, "A range of snowy mountains."
Not idiomatic.  Folly to count mountains, though.   He imagined a solitary
self counting mountains like sheep on a sleepless night.  White sheep.
White mountains.  "The hills skip like lambs, the mountains like rams."
That line?s taken, but he was pleased to have thought of it, made counting
mountains more plausible, though why must poetry be plausible? These
documents on the desk, they?re another thing altogether. He?ll get to them
soon enough.

If mountains, then trees dark against the snow.  If trees, then birds.  What
birds? He closed his eyes: a scarlet cardinal perched on a pine limb, and,
while Stevens watched, silver letters materialized, sparkled, "Christmas
Greetings." Ach! He changed pine to cedar. Even so the cardinal was
impossible.  What then?  Chickadee?  Ridiculous.  Tufted titmouse?  Worse.
He wanted a plain bird.  No nonsense.   Blackbird.  Perfect.  That?s it,
then.  He scratched out "springs" and wrote "blackbird."

Then he listened. His own breath<in and out<reminded him of the bellows he
used at the dying flame of his hearth, a bit of a wheeze lately, his own
tuneless whistle.  Right!  Whistle. "Blackbird whistling."  He wrote, "I do
not know which to prefer ....the blackbird whistling or just after."
Incomplete, that.  What would Keats have written? Surely that master of
inflection and innuendo would have written something about beauty.

He turned to the stack of legal documents: "Haddam vs. The Hartford."
"Nothing but trouble," he muttered, "the whole scrawny pack of them." The
poem would have to wait.


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Jun 20 13:57:53 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:57:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pamela Alexander
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040620110711.01044730@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <5A1152CC-C2E3-11D8-BE0E-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Thanks for posting "The Way Down," Richard, and for reassuring me that 
someone's reading.  And I misremembered: the Iowa Prize was for her 
third book, _Inland_.
Her second was _A Commonwealth of Wings_, (Wesleyan 1991), a sequence 
based on the life of Audubon.  Worth reading, but hard to excerpt 
fairly.


Wendy



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Jun 20 14:01:34 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:01:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Underwhelmed by Alexander
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV414UfeOxXE0003d637@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDEF1ADA-C2E3-11D8-BE0E-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 01:36 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
> | Before what is myself becomes
> | stiff and glazed, I will
> | talk to myself, to you; we are
> | falling together. {err... yuk?  Weak confessional conclusion?  
> Should have
> stopped with Amelia's story.}

Confessional?!  I think you've misread that, C.E.  I take it to be 
addressed to the reader.

Wendy



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape.



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Jun 20 14:22:03 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:22:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
In-Reply-To: <0202185D.35C1CABA.023799CC@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BA6B5874-C2E6-11D8-BE0E-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 01:14 PM, Faustina1 at aol.com wrote:
> Wow, what a good poem.  I am going to look up Pamela Alexander and 
> read the rest of that book.

That one's out of print and available on CAPA, Janet.
http://capa.conncoll.edu
Her others are still in print, as far as I know, and well worth looking 
for.

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu



From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 20 14:57:53 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:57:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poet] Alexander, Contests, and $
References: <DDEF1ADA-C2E3-11D8-BE0E-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV40PJ1eLNVc00016dc3@hotmail.com>

Dear Wendy,

Yes, there's an invitation to the "we" appended to what is mostly about the
speaker, preceded by three 'I'(s), a "myself," while "you" and "we" only
appear in the last two lines of the second part.

But puhleeaaze,"we are falling together"?  Not only is that hackneyed, I
don't think she earned the right (in the second part of the poem) to even
include us in her meanderings.

But it's only one poem, I had a knee-jerk reaction, I'll try to read more of
her.

Yet when someone introduces a new poet on this list in good faith, I trust
they're picking one of her best.

This wouldn't have made it into our e-zine (not that that's any absolute
measure, as her reputation no doubt outranks ours).

Lastly, how many on this list submitted a ms. to the Yale Series of Younger
Poets before they were 40 and out of consideration?  I confess to having
done it, as I recall, twice.  Any other dreamers out there?

It's OK to dream, isn't it?  A lot better than whining.  I entered two ms.
contests this year, one for a first book of literary criticism.  Naturally
it's way past the deadlines for the award announcements and I haven't heard
a thing.

I think contests, although admittedly sometimes contaminated by cronyism,
are one way lazy writers can hope for publication.  If I were serious about
my work I would query a hundred publishers, try to get an agent, pay for one
if I had to.... but contests are easy and impersonal.  And one doesn't
expect to win.  I guess if I'm honest with myself, I'm just playing the
lottery.  But it _feels_ like work.  Maybe it's just a tepid, cowardly
effort born of fear of success-- or more likely, failure.

And as for the financial part, believe it or not, I had my richest month in
June.  Two e-zines (yes, some e-zines pay!) paid me a total of $280.  An
all-time record.

When I was once featured at a venue in LA where Pulitzer Prize Winners had
also read, I received a grand total of $25.  Just enough to take my family
to Carl's Jr. afterwards.  I was grateful for the burgers, really.

Judson Jerome once wrote long ago that if you paid for your postage with
what you earned from poetry, you were a success.

Now we don't even have to use stamps!



--CE




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Underwhelmed by Alexander


| On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 01:36 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
| > | Before what is myself becomes
| > | stiff and glazed, I will
| > | talk to myself, to you; we are
| > | falling together. {err... yuk?  Weak confessional conclusion?
| > Should have
| > stopped with Amelia's story.}
|
| Confessional?!  I think you've misread that, C.E.  I take it to be
| addressed to the reader.
|
| Wendy
|
|


From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Jun 20 15:22:43 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:22:43 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poet] Alexander, Contests, and $
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV40PJ1eLNVc00016dc3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <013d01c456fb$ff0627b0$303c1c40@Emily>

CE,

This is the first year I entered any book contests.  I sent my ms. to
four contests, and was recently informed that it was a semi-finalist for
the Ahsahta Press Sawtooth Poetry Prize, which offers publication and a
cash prize.  This basically means that it beat out about 500 other mss.
to make it into the top forty.  Of course, it was cut before they sent
the top twenty on to the final judge.  I haven't heard back from the
others yet, so I imagine I didn't come close.  Will I do it again?
Probably. I haven't sent to the Yale.  I'm not sure if I will.

As for $$$ for poetry, I was paid $50 by an e-zine (PIF) for a poem
about four years ago, and last year the local literary guild paid me $50
to give a reading at the public library, attended almost exclusively by
people over 65.

My grand total then, is $100.  I'm hoping to make another hundred over
the next few years.

Tony





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 15:28:49 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:28:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Underwhelmed by Alexander
References: <7f.47f823e3.2e0679f7@cs.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040620110711.01044730@medicine.nodak.edu> <BAY18-DAV414UfeOxXE0003d637@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <013901c456fc$d208b5b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Oh, I think this very mediocre.  Don't want to read what Bob says about
it.

Regardless of what Tony claims, I let a lot of poems I don't think much of
go by without comment.

--Bob G.




From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Jun 20 15:34:39 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:34:39 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Underwhelmed by Alexander
In-Reply-To: <013901c456fc$d208b5b0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <013e01c456fd$a706eca0$303c1c40@Emily>

Bob bob bob...

I never claimed that you attacked every single poem you don't like.  I
simply noted that you normally dislike poems that aren't "burstnorm" or
that "don't use any technique not widely in use before 1950."

T.



Regardless of what Tony claims, I let a lot of poems I don't think much
of
go by without comment.

--Bob G.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sun Jun 20 16:58:30 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:58:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <200406201941.i5KJf1X2264340@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

so wright you are

----------
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Date: Sun, Jun 20, 2004, 4:28 AM



I was about to mention C.D. Wright

Hey, will someone do me a big favor and straighten out these $%#$!!$ Wrights
for me.  How many are there, a hundred?  I know James, and now I know
Fightin' Franz, his son, right?  I'm out of it from there.  I thought I knew
who C.D. was, but isn't there another one with initials, and Charles?

--Bob G.

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jun 20 16:33:51 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:33:51 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
References: <BA6B5874-C2E6-11D8-BE0E-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <022901c45705$e5f68d50$c4607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you very much Wendy, and to Richard Wilsnack for the poem, I am
particularly interested in Amelia Earhart since I was called to be the
interpreter for Laurie Anderson when she came here to perform her homage to
A. Earhart, there is a brief story I wrote on the poets' corner under
Anderson.

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather
admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 8:22 PM


> On Sunday, June 20, 2004, at 01:14 PM, Faustina1 at aol.com wrote:
> > Wow, what a good poem.  I am going to look up Pamela Alexander and
> > read the rest of that book.
>
> That one's out of print and available on CAPA, Janet.
> http://capa.conncoll.edu
> Her others are still in print, as far as I know, and well worth looking
> for.
>
> Wendy
>
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Faustina1 at aol.com  Sun Jun 20 16:44:59 2004
From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:44:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Criticism and Improvement
Message-ID: <86.ecd0e8d.2e07514b@aol.com>

For women and flight I recommend, too, Enid Shomer's *Stars at Noon,* a book 
of poems about the life of Jacqueline Cochran, a pilot who was a friend of 
Amelia Earhart. Janet 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 17:02:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:02:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Underwhelmed by Alexander
References: <013e01c456fd$a706eca0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <018701c45709$f2296da0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Bob bob bob...
>
> I never claimed that you attacked every single poem you don't like.  I
> simply noted that you normally dislike poems that aren't "burstnorm" or
> that "don't use any technique not widely in use before 1950."
>
> T.

I'm just needling you, Tony--BUT, you did recently write:
"I suppose Grumman's dismissal of anything not 'new' and 'innovative' would
count."  Note the use of the word, "anything."  I know, that I supposedly
dismiss all non-burstnorm poems doesn't mean I attack each of them
individually.  Still, the implication is there--and I'm pretty sure you've
at least once let yourself accuse me of jumping on every innocent little
non-burstnorm poem that anyone risks posting to New-Poetry.

--Bob G.




From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Jun 20 17:35:20 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:35:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Underwhelmed by Alexander
In-Reply-To: <018701c45709$f2296da0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <014301c4570e$837be4f0$303c1c40@Emily>

Bob,

Fair enough. I am guilty of, at the very least, imprecision.

Tony

__________
I'm just needling you, Tony--BUT, you did recently write:
"I suppose Grumman's dismissal of anything not 'new' and 'innovative'
would
count."  Note the use of the word, "anything."  I know, that I
supposedly
dismiss all non-burstnorm poems doesn't mean I attack each of them
individually.  Still, the implication is there--and I'm pretty sure
you've
at least once let yourself accuse me of jumping on every innocent little
non-burstnorm poem that anyone risks posting to New-Poetry.

--Bob G.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 20 18:13:21 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:13:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry]  Underwhelmed by Alexander
References: <014301c4570e$837be4f0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <01aa01c45713$ce214ae0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Bob,
> 
> Fair enough. I am guilty of, at the very least, imprecision.
> 
> Tony

AND I'LL NEVER LET YOU FORGET IT!

--Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jun 20 22:06:58 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:06:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
Message-ID: <20.2c6dfa54.2e079cc2@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/19/2004 10:48:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes:

> 
> You want to have some fun?  Go look at the Yale Series of Younger Poets
> list.  Out of 50 there's four memorable.  Merwin, Strand, and two others I
> forget

CE, Merwin won but I don't think Strand
ever did. But you missed a few for-sure's 
and many may-yet-be's:

Muriel Rukeyser
Adrienne Rich
John Ashbery
James Wright
William Dickey
Alan Dugan
Jack Gilbert
Peter Davison
Jean Valentine
James Tate
Hugh Seidman
Robert Hass
Michael Ryan
Maura Stanton
Olga Broumas
Bin Ramke
Leslie Ullman
David Wojahn
Richard Kenney
Pamela Alexander
Carolyn Forche
Brigit Pegeen Kelley
Daniel Hall
(I'm sure I overlooked some...)

I think the Yale Younger Poets has
changed over the years. The early years
seem to have produced no poet of note.
The middle years seem to be the real heyday.
Lately, instead of being THE prize for 
young poets without a book, The Yale Younger
competes with dozens and dozens 
of other manuscript prizes, first book 
and otherwise.
Finnegan
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Jun 21 00:06:59 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:06:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ryan
In-Reply-To: <b2.2d841b3e.2e06f5c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BCFBC913.A0D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/20/04 9:14 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:


http://www.myhero.com/myhero/hero.asp?hero=Kay_Ryan_Poetry_AP

Sam,
I can't say I'm completely up to speed with work, but the poems
I]ve seem strike me as akin to skinny free verse
that happens to play with rhymes. Would you say
she's a formalist?
Finnegan 
=============

I'm not much up on Kay Ryan, either.  But this weekend I recklessly visited
a town with a bookstore and while there was able to snag a copy of *Say
Uncle* at a used shop.

The poet who immediately springs to my mind is Robert Francis, actually.
(And in case it's not obvious, from me that's a compliment.)  I wouldn't
make large claims for either Francis or Ryan, but I also wouldn't relish a
poetry world that didn't have room for their sort of quirky style and
original vision.  More power to her for winning a big prize, and to the
judge for not simply throwing more money at the usual suspects.

Here are a couple from Ryan's book.

Blandeur

If it please God,
let less happen.
Even out Earth's 
rondure, flatten
Eiger, blanden
the Grand Canyon.
Make valleys
slightly higher,
widen fissures
to arable land,
remand your 
terrible glaciers
and silence
their calving, 
halving or doubling
all geographical features
toward the mean.
Unlean against our hearts.
Withdraw your grandeur

From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon Jun 21 00:27:55 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:27:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] the wright stuff
Message-ID: <1dd.248a5c70.2e07bdcb@aol.com>

and, of course, there's jay wright...


thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 01:24:46 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:24:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
References: <20.2c6dfa54.2e079cc2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV389T3TGJ2T00000202@hotmail.com>

Dear Granmeister Finnegan,

I'm humbled.  But that's always a good thing, the ignorant deserve it.

I saw an article on the anthology of the series and was amazed to find so
little.

Obviously I missed a lot of names.

In a Bob G. way, I'm going to cross out all the ones I've never heard of or
don't like.

But forgive me, it's Father's Day, and I'm drunk, listening to the Beatle's
_Revolver._

"CE, Merwin won but I don't think Strand
ever did. But you missed a few for-sure's
and many may-yet-be's:"

Muriel Rukeyser
Adrienne Rich
John Ashbery
----James Wright
----William Dickey (No James)
Alan Dugan (Ah, the Argrarian School)
----Jack Gilbert
----Peter Davison
----Jean Valentine
James Tate (can't help it)
-----Hugh Seidman
Robert Hass
-----Michael Ryan
------Maura Stanton
-----Olga Broumas
-----Bin Ramke (bin dere)
-----Leslie Ullman
-----David Wojahn
-----Richard Kenney
-----Pamela Alexander (you know I don't like her so far.  Amelia?  Ecch.)
-----Carolyn Forche  (Hausfrau with fornix)
-----Brigit Pegeen Kelley (get a real name)
-----Daniel Hall  (wants to be Donald, although Jane is better)

"(I'm sure I overlooked some...)"

--I'm sure you didn't.

I think the Yale Younger Poets has
changed over the years. The early years
seem to have produced no poet of note.
The middle years seem to be the real heyday.
Lately, instead of being THE prize for
young poets without a book, The Yale Younger
competes with dozens and dozens
of other manuscript prizes, first book
and otherwise.
Finnegan

--Yes, I agree, as I said I was not surprised by my ignorance, only by your
knowledge.

You are a true arbiter of knowledge.

Contemporary poets?  We might know in 50 years.

I won't be there, how 'bout you? ;-)  Anyone on this list?  Only Spacks and
Gwynn seem to have some recognition.

I'd like to drink a pint of Guiness with Bob and tell him how right he is.
Just to make him feel better.

But again, apologies for overstated claims.


Thine,

CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 01:26:11 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:26:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ryan
References: <BCFBC913.A0D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV63oFOAmEaJ000001e6@hotmail.com>

Great stuff.

Thanks, David.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:06 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ryan


| on 6/20/04 9:14 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:
|
|
| http://www.myhero.com/myhero/hero.asp?hero=Kay_Ryan_Poetry_AP
|
| Sam,
| I can't say I'm completely up to speed with work, but the poems
| I]ve seem strike me as akin to skinny free verse
| that happens to play with rhymes. Would you say
| she's a formalist?
| Finnegan
| =============
|
| I'm not much up on Kay Ryan, either.  But this weekend I recklessly
visited
| a town with a bookstore and while there was able to snag a copy of *Say
| Uncle* at a used shop.
|
| The poet who immediately springs to my mind is Robert Francis, actually.
| (And in case it's not obvious, from me that's a compliment.)  I wouldn't
| make large claims for either Francis or Ryan, but I also wouldn't relish a
| poetry world that didn't have room for their sort of quirky style and
| original vision.  More power to her for winning a big prize, and to the
| judge for not simply throwing more money at the usual suspects.
|
| Here are a couple from Ryan's book.
|
| Blandeur
|
| If it please God,
| let less happen.
| Even out Earth's
| rondure, flatten
| Eiger, blanden
| the Grand Canyon.
| Make valleys
| slightly higher,
| widen fissures
| to arable land,
| remand your
| terrible glaciers
| and silence
| their calving,
| halving or doubling
| all geographical features
| toward the mean.
| Unlean against our hearts.
| Withdraw your grandeur
| From these parts.
|
| -- Kay Ryan
| ==============================
|
| AMONG ENGLISH VERBS
| Kay Ryan
|
|
| Among English verbs
| *to die* is oddest in its
| eagerness to be *dead*,
| immodest in its
| haste to be told --
| a verb alchemical
| in the head:
| one speck of its gold
| and a whole life's lead.
|
| ====================================================
| David Graham
| grahamd at ripon.edu
| Home Page:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
| Poetry Library:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
| ====================================================
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 21 07:11:28 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:11:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ryan
References: <BCFBC913.A0D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006a01c45780$81c72940$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>More power to her for winning a big prize, and to the
> judge for not simply throwing more money at the usual suspects.

And for keeping it away from anyone in an uncertified school of poetry.

--Bob G.



From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jun 21 07:25:36 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:25:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <003801c45782$7cdc8bd0$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

China as a day job:
The role of the poet in
Joseph Torra?s After the Chinese

The poems one ?dips into?
again & again
-- ?not of one bird but of many?

Lucid dreaming
vs. not dreaming at all

The hardest working poet in America:
Anne Waldman?s New & Selected:
In the Room of Never Grieve

Eleven ways of looking at a caf? table:
Jim Jarmusch?s Coffee and Cigarettes

?Revolutionary? poetry ?
from Roque Dalton, Ernesto Cardenal & Jack Hirschman
to Lorenzo Thomas? Dancing on Main Street

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar
(June Croon edition)

Ron Silliman: 
Forthcoming readings & talks
(Boston, Seattle, Lawrence, SF, Philly & DC)

How does an ear work in poetry?

From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Jun 21 07:31:17 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:31:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <19a.26030df3.2e06efe1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40D68EC5.31851.C8397@localhost>

On 20 Jun 2004 at 9:49, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> I'd answer "Self-evidently, below is better." 

"Self-evidently"? That's your whole answer? Well, if that's the game, 
then what's really self-evident is that you've got nothing. You're 
merely making an unsupported assertion. You've got no theory, no 
practice, and no relation between the two; all you've got is your 
mere assertion. And to your mere assertion my mere assertion is 
equal. You're wrong. That's my assertion, and I claim it's self-
evident.  What now?

Marcus





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 21 07:37:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:37:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
References: <20.2c6dfa54.2e079cc2@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV389T3TGJ2T00000202@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008001c45784$2f47c9f0$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> In a Bob G. way, I'm going to cross out all the ones I've never heard of
or
> don't like.

Actually, I'd say the the Yale Younger competition has done okay for what it
is--except that it excludes whole schools of poetry.  James Wright is about
the only one who has won it whose poetry (some of it) I admire--but it has
honored a fair number of reasonably good poets.

--Bob G.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Jun 21 09:53:45 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:53:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
Message-ID: <67.2c2e4b28.2e084269@cs.com>

Ballade of the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear

Tell me where, oh, where are they,
Those Younger Poets of Old Yale
Whose laurels flourished for a day
But wither now beyond the pale?
Where are Chubb, Farrar, and Vinal
With fame as fragile as a bubble?
Where is the late Paul Tanaquil,
And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?

Where's Banks? Where's Boyle? Where's Frances Clai-
Borne Mason? Where is T. H. Ferril?
Dorothy E. Reid or Margaret Ha-
Ley? Simmering in Bad Poets Hell?
J. Ingalls' Metaphysical
Sword (hacking critics' weeds to stubble)?
Young Ashbery (that is, "John L.")?
And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?

Where's Alfred Raymond Bellinger
(If you'll allow me to exhale
Him avec un accent fran?ais)?
Where's Faust (Henri) or Dorothy Belle
Flanagan? Where is Paul Engle
(To rhyme whose surname gave me trouble)?
Hath tolled for all the passing bell?
And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?

Prince of all poets, hear, I pray,
And raise them from their beds of rubble.
Where's Younger Carolyn Forch??
And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?                      
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jun 21 10:16:06 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:16:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
References: <67.2c2e4b28.2e084269@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c4579a$4b7a1a90$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

If that's invented right there like that, then here is a Bravo!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 3:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners


  Ballade of the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear

  Tell me where, oh, where are they,
  Those Younger Poets of Old Yale
  Whose laurels flourished for a day
  But wither now beyond the pale?
  Where are Chubb, Farrar, and Vinal
  With fame as fragile as a bubble?
  Where is the late Paul Tanaquil,
  And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?

  Where's Banks? Where's Boyle? Where's Frances Clai-
  Borne Mason? Where is T. H. Ferril?
  Dorothy E. Reid or Margaret Ha-
  Ley? Simmering in Bad Poets Hell?
  J. Ingalls' Metaphysical
  Sword (hacking critics' weeds to stubble)?
  Young Ashbery (that is, "John L.")?
  And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?

  Where's Alfred Raymond Bellinger
  (If you'll allow me to exhale
  Him avec un accent fran?ais)?
  Where's Faust (Henri) or Dorothy Belle
  Flanagan? Where is Paul Engle
  (To rhyme whose surname gave me trouble)?
  Hath tolled for all the passing bell?
  And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?

  Prince of all poets, hear, I pray,
  And raise them from their beds of rubble.
  Where's Younger Carolyn Forch??
  And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell?                      
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Jun 21 11:38:36 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:38:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
References: <20.2c6dfa54.2e079cc2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011c01c457a5$d211f8b0$e0dcf63f@Helen>

I am not a person
I am a succession of persons
held together by memory. 

When the string breaks, 
The beads are scattered. 

    Lindley Wiliams Hubbell

(a tanka)


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:06 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners


  In a message dated 6/19/2004 10:48:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes:



    You want to have some fun?  Go look at the Yale Series of Younger Poets
    list.  Out of 50 there's four memorable.  Merwin, Strand, and two others I
    forget


  CE, Merwin won but I don't think Strand
  ever did. But you missed a few for-sure's 
  and many may-yet-be's:

  Muriel Rukeyser
  Adrienne Rich
  John Ashbery
  James Wright
  William Dickey
  Alan Dugan
  Jack Gilbert
  Peter Davison
  Jean Valentine
  James Tate
  Hugh Seidman
  Robert Hass
  Michael Ryan
  Maura Stanton
  Olga Broumas
  Bin Ramke
  Leslie Ullman
  David Wojahn
  Richard Kenney
  Pamela Alexander
  Carolyn Forche
  Brigit Pegeen Kelley
  Daniel Hall
  (I'm sure I overlooked some...)

  I think the Yale Younger Poets has
  changed over the years. The early years
  seem to have produced no poet of note.
  The middle years seem to be the real heyday.
  Lately, instead of being THE prize for 
  young poets without a book, The Yale Younger
  competes with dozens and dozens 
  of other manuscript prizes, first book 
  and otherwise.
  Finnegan
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Jun 21 11:54:12 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:54:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?
In-Reply-To: <200406191046.i5JAk2XE021068@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621085159.00bc6848@incoming.verizon.net>

Brother Ray
             brilliantly translated
		      from America, America
	       & What I Say
     to the ur-Sanskrit
			of silence



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jun 21 12:36:43 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:36:43 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621085159.00bc6848@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <004001c457ad$efafefa0$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Excellent Barry, and a beautiful tanka sent by Helen,
Anny

From: "Barry Spacks" <barry.spacks at verizon.net>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 5:54 PM


> Brother Ray
>              brilliantly translated
>       from America, America
>        & What I Say
>      to the ur-Sanskrit
> of silence
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon Jun 21 12:40:26 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:40:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yale winners & Yale judges
Message-ID: <142.2c92fe73.2e08697a@aol.com>

it might be interesting to know who the judges were for those yale winning 
mss. let's not be too harsh on the poets...remember, they just write the poems 
and send in their ms.   they have nothing to do with who wins the prize...the 
selections may say more about the judges than they do the poets.


thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Jun 21 13:19:29 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:19:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV389T3TGJ2T00000202@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BCFC82D1.A111%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/21/04 12:24 AM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote:

> Contemporary poets?  We might know in 50 years.
> 
> I won't be there, how 'bout you? ;-)  Anyone on this list?  Only Spacks and
> Gwynn seem to have some recognition.

Ah, but I'm famous in heaven (where I'm also being published these days). .
. .

An old theme but still lively, I guess.  Here's a poem by a poet once well
known, who was called by Allen Tate "one of the best poets in English."

The Complaint of an Unappreciated Talent


Consider all the nonsense that has been written since the beginning of time,
Pile all the books on top of one another,
Toss in a pair of old socks,
A couple of badly scuffed, rubber-heeled oxfords--
And, finally, for good measure, the old corncob pipe.
What does it all amount to?
Nothing any better than much that is being written today--
Certainly, nothing as complex as the creative writing I have done during the
past few years.
For the merely good is no better than the worst;
And the best--and this is something I'm always arguing about--
Is usually overlooked, and never fully appreciated


--John Hall Wheelock.  *By Daylight & In Dream:  New & Collected Poems
1904-1970*. Charles Scribner's Sons, 1970.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jun 21 07:13:59 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 06:13:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ryan
In-Reply-To: <BCFBC913.A0D7%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BCFC2D27.69E6%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 6/20/04 11:06 PM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> on 6/20/04 9:14 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> http://www.myhero.com/myhero/hero.asp?hero=Kay_Ryan_Poetry_AP
> 
> Sam,
> I can't say I'm completely up to speed with work, but the poems
> I]ve seem strike me as akin to skinny free verse
> that happens to play with rhymes. Would you say
> she's a formalist?
> Finnegan 
> =============
> 
> I'm not much up on Kay Ryan, either.  But this weekend I recklessly visited
> a town with a bookstore and while there was able to snag a copy of *Say
> Uncle* at a used shop.
> 
> The poet who immediately springs to my mind is Robert Francis, actually.
> (And in case it's not obvious, from me that's a compliment.)  I wouldn't
> make large claims for either Francis or Ryan, but I also wouldn't relish a
> poetry world that didn't have room for their sort of quirky style and
> original vision.  More power to her for winning a big prize, and to the
> judge for not simply throwing more money at the usual suspects.
> 
> Here are a couple from Ryan's book.
> 
> Blandeur
> 
> If it please God,
> let less happen.
> Even out Earth's 
> rondure, flatten
> Eiger, blanden
> the Grand Canyon.
> Make valleys
> slightly higher,
> widen fissures
> to arable land,
> remand your 
> terrible glaciers
> and silence
> their calving, 
> halving or doubling
> all geographical features
> toward the mean.
> Unlean against our hearts.
> Withdraw your grandeur
>> From these parts.
> 
> -- Kay Ryan
> ==============================
> 
> AMONG ENGLISH VERBS
> Kay Ryan 
> 
>  
> Among English verbs
> *to die* is oddest in its
> eagerness to be *dead*,
> immodest in its
> haste to be told --
> a verb alchemical
> in the head:
> one speck of its gold
> and a whole life's lead.
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
I count myself a Ryan fan. I also wrote an essay on her for the DLB volume
on New Formalism in which I make a case for her as a (sometimes) formalist,
though often she does indeed write skinny free verse.  But if you look at
the two poems above, you'll see the formal element in her work. There's
something epigrammatic about "Among English Verbs." Rhyme is absolutely
central to her work, and sometimes she slips into and out of regular meter,
as in the closing lines of "Blandeur":

> Unlean against our hearts.
> Withdraw your grandeur From these parts.

I've cheated a bit by combining the last two lines, but the first line is
iambic trimeter and the second, if read together, is tetrameter.

Though "Say Uncle" is good, I think *Flamingo Watching* is her best book.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 15:23:56 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:23:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Are we Fleet Street?
References: <BCFC82D1.A111%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV66tGz9krN80000105d@hotmail.com>

> on 6/21/04 12:24 AM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Contemporary poets?  We might know in 50 years.
> >
> > I won't be there, how 'bout you? ;-)  Anyone on this list?  Only Spacks
and
> > Gwynn seem to have some recognition.
>

>David:  "Ah, but I'm famous in heaven (where I'm also being published these
days). ."

Whether meant for me or just David's musing, it is an excellent oxymoron.

"Unless you humble yourself as this little child."  Hardly promise of
publication!

(I did make it to Purgatory on the Dante thingie... but that's medieval
morality.)

I don't have a copy in front of me, but in the last chapter of Ecclesiastes
the Preacher says there's already been too many books written.  And much of
what I hear on this list reminds me of Dryden's "MacFlecknoe" and Pope's "To
Dr. Arbuthnot," for whom _we_ might constitute Fleet Street.  Point is,
these complaints are endemic to writers.

But hell, who wouldn't want to be a famous, respected poet?  And think of
all the people who could complain about your undeserving mediocrity while
you bask in the limelight.  The winners write history, as has been well
said.

And if I had a nickel for every book jacket that said "one of the best poets
in English," I might retire on it. ;-)

--CE







> . .
>
> An old theme but still lively, I guess.  Here's a poem by a poet once well
> known, who was called by Allen Tate "one of the best poets in English."
>
> The Complaint of an Unappreciated Talent
>
>
> Consider all the nonsense that has been written since the beginning of
time,
> Pile all the books on top of one another,
> Toss in a pair of old socks,
> A couple of badly scuffed, rubber-heeled oxfords--
> And, finally, for good measure, the old corncob pipe.
> What does it all amount to?
> Nothing any better than much that is being written today--
> Certainly, nothing as complex as the creative writing I have done during
the
> past few years.
> For the merely good is no better than the worst;
> And the best--and this is something I'm always arguing about--
> Is usually overlooked, and never fully appreciated
>
>
> --John Hall Wheelock.  *By Daylight & In Dream:  New & Collected Poems
> 1904-1970*. Charles Scribner's Sons, 1970.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 21 14:28:23 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:28:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621085159.00bc6848@incoming.verizon.net> <004001c457ad$efafefa0$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <016e01c457bd$8b49edd0$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Beautiful tanka?!  I thought it was gawdawful and was going politely to
ignore it because I assumed no one would need to be told it was bad! What
does a person, or the many different persons a given person "really" is,
have to do with beads, and how likely is it that a person is going to spill
all the sub-persons he contains on the floor?  I might add that it doesn't
capture anything of the mood of its form, for me.

--Bob G.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Jun 21 14:37:30 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:37:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?
Message-ID: <15a.380c415f.2e0884ea@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/21/2004 1:29:38 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> Beautiful tanka?!  I thought it was gawdawful and was going politely to
> ignore it because I assumed no one would need to be told it was bad! What
> does a person, or the many different persons a given person "really" is,
> have to do with beads, and how likely is it that a person is going to spill
> all the sub-persons he contains on the floor?  I might add that it doesn't
> capture anything of the mood of its form, for me.
> 
> --Bob G.
Hey, how many of us have written poems that have only five bad lines?
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jun 21 14:40:08 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:40:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tanka
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621085159.00bc6848@incoming.verizon.net> <004001c457ad$efafefa0$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <016e01c457bd$8b49edd0$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <009901c457bf$2d755210$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

If you see them all from a distance they are beads, smaller than beads, but
then you have to be way up beyond the stratosphere, and they are down on the
flat floor which is the earth, and let me go back and read that story about
spilling,

not spilling but scattered. And you are forcing an interpretation. As much
as I was.

Two stanzas. One on memory and people. The other on a string with beads. If
you think they can be connected, and you do not like this connection then
your imagination is faulty.

I am also forcing this connection, but I like it. And I like the tanka.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?


> Beautiful tanka?!  I thought it was gawdawful and was going politely to
> ignore it because I assumed no one would need to be told it was bad! What
> does a person, or the many different persons a given person "really" is,
> have to do with beads, and how likely is it that a person is going to
spill
> all the sub-persons he contains on the floor?  I might add that it doesn't
> capture anything of the mood of its form, for me.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 21 15:37:38 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:37:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Are we Fleet Street?
References: <BCFC82D1.A111%grahamd@ripon.edu> <BAY18-DAV66tGz9krN80000105d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <018601c457c7$38ae1e20$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> But hell, who wouldn't want to be a famous, respected poet?  And think of
> all the people who could complain about your undeserving mediocrity while
> you bask in the limelight.  The winners write history, as has been well
> said.

I doubt anyone would complain about my undeserving mediocrity; they'd scorn
me as a wilful obfuscator who was less than mediocre.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 21 15:43:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:43:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tanka
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621085159.00bc6848@incoming.verizon.net> <004001c457ad$efafefa0$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <016e01c457bd$8b49edd0$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009901c457bf$2d755210$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <019401c457c8$0f1b9c80$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> If you see them all from a distance they are beads, smaller than beads,
but
> then you have to be way up beyond the stratosphere, and they are down on
the
> flat floor which is the earth, and let me go back and read that story
about
> spilling,
>
> not spilling but scattered. And you are forcing an interpretation. As much
> as I was.

Anny, if you cut a string of beads, you will spill them.  I'm not "forcing"
an interpretation, I'm saying what the words ay is there.  But substitute
"scatter" for "spill," it doesn't matter.

> Two stanzas. One on memory and people. The other on a string with beads.
If
> you think they can be connected, and you do not like this connection then
> your imagination is faulty.

The poet connects them by putting them in the same poem.  As I recall (I
deleted the poem), the first three lines are about a series of persons that
the poet is; the last two lines are about a string of beads.  The connection
seems to me obvious.

> I am also forcing this connection, but I like it. And I like the tanka.

What connection are you forcing?

--Bob G.




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 16:54:56 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:54:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] To Tony about $
References: <013d01c456fb$ff0627b0$303c1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV41PlrwAnek000012d9@hotmail.com>

Tony,

That's better than I've done.  I never received a notice that I made it to
the top stair of Purgatory in a contest.

Pif pays by the line, got money from them twice-- your poem must have been
longer since you got a bigger check!

My receipt for June, btw, was a record-- not for a month, but for any year,
or any two years.  Perhaps equal to my entire earnings for 30 years
(although when first paid for a poem back in 1975, $30 was worth a lot
more).

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poet] Alexander, Contests, and $


> CE,
>
> This is the first year I entered any book contests.  I sent my ms. to
> four contests, and was recently informed that it was a semi-finalist for
> the Ahsahta Press Sawtooth Poetry Prize, which offers publication and a
> cash prize.  This basically means that it beat out about 500 other mss.
> to make it into the top forty.  Of course, it was cut before they sent
> the top twenty on to the final judge.  I haven't heard back from the
> others yet, so I imagine I didn't come close.  Will I do it again?
> Probably. I haven't sent to the Yale.  I'm not sure if I will.
>
> As for $$$ for poetry, I was paid $50 by an e-zine (PIF) for a poem
> about four years ago, and last year the local literary guild paid me $50
> to give a reading at the public library, attended almost exclusively by
> people over 65.
>
> My grand total then, is $100.  I'm hoping to make another hundred over
> the next few years.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Jun 21 16:21:11 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:21:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621085159.00bc6848@incoming.verizon.net> <004001c457ad$efafefa0$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <016e01c457bd$8b49edd0$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <007801c457cd$4bebbff0$63089942@Helen>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?


> Beautiful tanka?!  I thought it was gawdawful and was going politely to
> ignore it because I assumed no one would need to be told it was bad! What
> does a person, or the many different persons a given person "really" is,
> have to do with beads, and how likely is it that a person is going to
spill
> all the sub-persons he contains on the floor?  I might add that it doesn't
> capture anything of the mood of its form, for me.
>
> --Bob G.
>
What'sn this about being polite?

h>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From MillB at aol.com  Mon Jun 21 17:28:43 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:28:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yale winners & Yale judges
Message-ID: <d1.f9b176d.2e08ad0b@aol.com>


It seems to me that Yale Younger Poets Prize has the same judge for a  number 
of years, the term is ten years or so.  I did not check, but WS  Merwin was 
the judge for most of the 1990's I believe. . .
 
Mill
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jun 21 17:22:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:22:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: But Did We Know Him?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621085159.00bc6848@incoming.verizon.net> <004001c457ad$efafefa0$b6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <016e01c457bd$8b49edd0$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <007801c457cd$4bebbff0$63089942@Helen>
Message-ID: <01d401c457d5$e3f0dbc0$1eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> What's this about being polite?
> 
> h>

Keeping negative feelings to oneself is commonly considered being polite.

--Bob G.



From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Jun 21 18:37:53 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:37:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Everyone's Dying to Know His Every Opinion
In-Reply-To: <200406212111.i5LLB2XE011682@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net>

At 05:11 PM 6/21/2004 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

>What'sn this about being polite?

a bit more about lying-in-wait!

civility, solidarity, generosity, Menschlikeit
(and no negotiating with terrorists),

Barry


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From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Mon Jun 21 19:11:01 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:11:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
In-Reply-To: <BCFC82D1.A111%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <43309D1C-C3D8-11D8-BA71-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Monday, June 21, 2004, at 01:19 PM, David Graham wrote:
>>
>> I won't be there, how 'bout you? ;-)  Anyone on this list?  Only 
>> Spacks and
>> Gwynn seem to have some recognition.
>
> Ah, but I'm famous in heaven (where I'm also being published these 
> days). .

Not to worry, David.  C.E. was referring only to recognition from C.E.


Wendy, slipping on the Groucho glasses




Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

                Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment.
                                                       --Rumi



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Jun 21 19:24:04 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:24:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yale winners & Yale judges
Message-ID: <135.3097dbd4.2e08c814@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/21/2004 4:29:46 PM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com 
writes: 
>  
>  It seems to me that Yale Younger Poets Prize has the same judge for a 
> number of years, the term is ten years or so.  I did not check, but WS Merwin was 
> the judge for most of the 1990's I believe. . .
>   
>  Mill
> 
Remember how he caused a flap a few years back by refusing to select a 
winner?
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 21:02:07 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:02:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Everyone's Dying to Know His Every Opinion
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com>

Menschlichkeit.

Gemutlichkeit.

Fahrenheit.

--CE


From: Barry Spacks


At 05:11 PM 6/21/2004 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:


What'sn this about being polite?

a bit more about lying-in-wait!

civility, solidarity, generosity, Menschlikeit  <<(is this just a pun, or do
you not know the German?)>>
(and no negotiating with terrorists),

then don't negotiate with Parelli or Bales, so Bob tells me, who's just
dense enough to earn tolerance.  I'm new here, don't mean to offend anyone.

--CE


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 21:05:05 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:05:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners
References: <43309D1C-C3D8-11D8-BA71-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV385Yfu2hRM0000169d@hotmail.com>

Ah, Wendy, you make me laugh.

One description of my narcissistic personality:

"An authority in search of a subject."

I hope my self-promotion here leads to some real self-promotion.

Cheers,

CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] some other Yale winners


| On Monday, June 21, 2004, at 01:19 PM, David Graham wrote:
| >>
| >> I won't be there, how 'bout you? ;-)  Anyone on this list?  Only 
| >> Spacks and
| >> Gwynn seem to have some recognition.
| >
| > Ah, but I'm famous in heaven (where I'm also being published these 
| > days). .
| 
| Not to worry, David.  C.E. was referring only to recognition from C.E.
| 
| 
| Wendy, slipping on the Groucho glasses

Do you think _Duck Soup_ their greatest?

--T. S. Lipton




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Mon Jun 21 21:53:35 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:53:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Everyone's Dying to Know His Every Opinion
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net>
 <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Careful now, seems Bradbury is in a suing mood for people using 
'farenheit' lately.

Challenged Moore to a duel with pistols at dawn, I heard.

It was Drudge, tho, so take with bucket of salt. ;)

-kpaul
http://www.mallasch.com/mug/

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, C. E. Chaffin wrote:

> Menschlichkeit.
>
> Gemutlichkeit.
>
> Fahrenheit.
>
> --CE
>
>
> From: Barry Spacks
>
>
> At 05:11 PM 6/21/2004 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
>
>
> What'sn this about being polite?
>
> a bit more about lying-in-wait!
>
> civility, solidarity, generosity, Menschlikeit  <<(is this just a pun, or do
> you not know the German?)>>
> (and no negotiating with terrorists),
>
> then don't negotiate with Parelli or Bales, so Bob tells me, who's just
> dense enough to earn tolerance.  I'm new here, don't mean to offend anyone.
>
> --CE
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 22:19:51 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:19:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Everyone's Dying to Know His Every Opinion
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com>

I could resist, but I can't.

Here's one of my poems (below) I really like, rejected by editors and only
published obscurely on the net, not even my wife likes it, although I worked
_really_ hard on this one.  Maybe the best poems are always gifts and not
constructions.

And may I say, "The Sound of Thunder" is a great piece of writing by
Bradbury.

-- CE

Fahrenheit 451 Revisited*



"If your eyes deceive you,
pluck them out!" the preacher cried.
The Man with X-Ray Eyes
raked his sockets clean
and stared into the camera,
his fresh, almond concavities
bloody as newborns.



He was glad for darkness,
tired of seeing others naked,
watching capillaries dissolve

in endless transparencies
like the thin partitions

of a chambered nautilus.
As each new surface

failed him, he more feared

to reach the center.




II


Someday a virtuality receptacle

may be implanted in your brain
to bridge the cold separation
between you and this screen.



Over the pixilated fence

and into the house of fractals

you will go.



But will there still be books?



Insert disk: perfume of Moroccan leather

and fresh paper, the book's weight

a cat on your lap, your brandy snifter

backlit by a fire, your dear departed dog

curled beside.  Hours pass, days even,
before the automatic timer ejects.



You have just used three seconds to read

The Brothers Karamazov twice

(though you miss your dog).



*The Man with X-Ray Eyes is a science fiction movie circa 1960, starring Ray
Milland, in which the scene described in the first stanza occurs.


--CE (can't recall who had mercy on this for an obscure publication)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kpaul mallasch" <kpaul at mallasch.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Everyone's Dying to Know His Every Opinion


| Careful now, seems Bradbury is in a suing mood for people using
| 'farenheit' lately.
|
| Challenged Moore to a duel with pistols at dawn, I heard.
|
| It was Drudge, tho, so take with bucket of salt. ;)
|
| -kpaul
| http://www.mallasch.com/mug/
|
| On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
|
| > Menschlichkeit.
| >
| > Gemutlichkeit.
| >
| > Fahrenheit.
| >
| > --CE
| >
| >
| > From: Barry Spacks
| >
| >
| > At 05:11 PM 6/21/2004 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
| >
| >
| > What'sn this about being polite?
| >
| > a bit more about lying-in-wait!
| >
| > civility, solidarity, generosity, Menschlikeit  <<(is this just a pun,
or do
| > you not know the German?)>>
| > (and no negotiating with terrorists),
| >
| > then don't negotiate with Parelli or Bales, so Bob tells me, who's just
| > dense enough to earn tolerance.  I'm new here, don't mean to offend
anyone.
| >
| > --CE
| > _______________________________________________
| > New-Poetry mailing list
| > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| >
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 21 22:28:34 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:28:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't read my last post, the formatting sucked...
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com>

Fahrenheit 451 Revisited*

"If your eyes deceive you,
pluck them out!" the preacher cried.
The Man with X-Ray Eyes
raked his sockets clean
and stared into the camera,
his fresh, almond concavities
bloody as newborns.

He was glad for darkness,
tired of seeing others naked,
watching capillaries dissolve
in endless transparencies
like the thin partitions
of a chambered nautilus.
As each new surface
failed him, he more feared
to reach the center.


II

Someday a virtuality receptacle
may be implanted in your brain
to bridge the cold separation
between you and this screen.
Over the pixilated fence
and into the house of fractals
you will go.

But will there still be books?

Insert disk: perfume of Moroccan leather
and fresh paper, the book's weight
a cat on your lap, your brandy snifter
backlit by a fire, your dear departed dog
curled beside.  Hours pass, days even,
before the automatic timer ejects.

You have just used three seconds to read
The Brothers Karamazov twice
though you miss your dog terribly.



*The Man with X-Ray Eyes is a science fiction movie circa 1960, starring Ray
Milland, in which the scene described in the first stanza occurs.


--CE|


| From: "kpaul mallasch" <kpaul at mallasch.com>
| To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
| Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:53 PM
| Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Everyone's Dying to Know His Every Opinion
|
|
| | Careful now, seems Bradbury is in a suing mood for people using
| | 'farenheit' lately.
| |
| | Challenged Moore to a duel with pistols at dawn, I heard.
| |
| | It was Drudge, tho, so take with bucket of salt. ;)
| |
| | -kpaul
| | http://www.mallasch.com/mug/
| |
| | On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
| |
| | > Menschlichkeit.
| | >
| | > Gemutlichkeit.
| | >
| | > Fahrenheit.
| | >
| | > --CE
| | >
| | >
| | > From: Barry Spacks
| | >
| | >
| | > At 05:11 PM 6/21/2004 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
| | >
| | >
| | > What'sn this about being polite?
| | >
| | > a bit more about lying-in-wait!
| | >
| | > civility, solidarity, generosity, Menschlikeit  <<(is this just a pun,
| or do
| | > you not know the German?)>>
| | > (and no negotiating with terrorists),
| | >
| | > then don't negotiate with Parelli or Bales, so Bob tells me, who's
just
| | > dense enough to earn tolerance.  I'm new here, don't mean to offend
| anyone.
| | >
| | > --CE
| | > _______________________________________________
| | > New-Poetry mailing list
| | > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| | > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| | >
| | _______________________________________________
| | New-Poetry mailing list
| | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| |
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 22 02:59:54 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:59:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] kotzin
Message-ID: <200406220542.i5M5gNPX015266@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

c.e.---

thanks for forwarding this. i used to know miriam back in philly

wow, i'm glad to see she's still around and writing...

i totally lost touch with her.

take care,

chris


----------
From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
To: "New Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] A little light take on Stevens
Date: Sun, Jun 20, 2004, 9:40 AM


by Miriam Kotzin (a new net acquaintance)

A Virtually True Account of How Wallace Stevens Wrote  "Thirteen Ways of
Looking at a Blackbird"

Stevens sat at his desk at Hartford Accident and Indemnity, leaned back in
his worn leather chair and rocked deliberately, listening to the
comfortable, familiar sound of ancient springs bearing his considerable
weight.  He sighed.  He did not know which he preferred, the sound of the
springs or the silence that followed.  He jotted a note on his yellow legal
pad:  "I do not know which to prefer," he wrote, "the springs creaking or
just after."  That?s the ticket, he thought, a sly reference to Keats?
Grecian Urn, his unheard music.  Those Harvard years, well, even without the
degree, he?d got something.  But "springs creaking"?  He?d leave it at that
for now.

He swiveled towards the window.  It was snowing, and, worse, from the looks
of it, it was going to snow.  He leaned back, folded his hands on his paunch
and closed his eyes, conjuring a landscape.  What landscape?  Key West?
Palm trees, sun glinting on cerulean seas?  A rivulet of sweat stings his
eye.  Not Key West, then, today.  No, today it must be snowing.  A snowy
landscape.  A mountain perhaps?  Yes.  A mountain.  A snowy mountain.

He leaned forward and wrote it down.  "One snowy mountain."  He would stay
at his club for dinner instead of dealing with Elsie, who was always
irritating, incessantly interrupting him when he was writing. Settled.  He?d
stay in town. Now content, expansive, he drew a line through "One" and wrote
above it, "Twenty." "Twenty mountains?"  Then, "A range of snowy mountains."
Not idiomatic.  Folly to count mountains, though.   He imagined a solitary
self counting mountains like sheep on a sleepless night.  White sheep.
White mountains.  "The hills skip like lambs, the mountains like rams."
That line?s taken, but he was pleased to have thought of it, made counting
mountains more plausible, though why must poetry be plausible? These
documents on the desk, they?re another thing altogether. He?ll get to them
soon enough.

If mountains, then trees dark against the snow.  If trees, then birds.  What
birds? He closed his eyes: a scarlet cardinal perched on a pine limb, and,
while Stevens watched, silver letters materialized, sparkled, "Christmas
Greetings." Ach! He changed pine to cedar. Even so the cardinal was
impossible.  What then?  Chickadee?  Ridiculous.  Tufted titmouse?  Worse.
He wanted a plain bird.  No nonsense.   Blackbird.  Perfect.  That?s it,
then.  He scratched out "springs" and wrote "blackbird."

Then he listened. His own breath<in and out<reminded him of the bellows he
used at the dying flame of his hearth, a bit of a wheeze lately, his own
tuneless whistle.  Right!  Whistle. "Blackbird whistling."  He wrote, "I do
not know which to prefer ....the blackbird whistling or just after."
Incomplete, that.  What would Keats have written? Surely that master of
inflection and innuendo would have written something about beauty.

He turned to the stack of legal documents: "Haddam vs. The Hartford."
"Nothing but trouble," he muttered, "the whole scrawny pack of them." The
poem would have to wait.
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 07:34:22 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:34:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Since I know everyone at New-Poetry is fascinated by everything I do, especially our noble anti-Terrorist, I thought I'd post my latest published work.  It fits into the thread about neglected poets, too.  It's from the issue of Small Press Review just out.

--Bob G.



Finding a Home

House and Home

Rochelle Ratner

88 pp; 2003; Pa

Marsh Hawk Press, Box 220, Stuyvesant Station, 

New York NY 10009

www.MarshHawkPress.org

Finding the telling detail of quotidian experiences and pinning them into permanence with the least number of just-right words is Rochelle Ratner's forte as a poet. Her thirteenth book of poetry, House and Home, conclusively demonstrates this. It is mainly about her finally getting a home in the country after being a city woman most (all?) of her life, but a significant section is devoted to a successful romance which comes across like another kind of finding a home in the country.

Here's a sample, two excerpts from "Lilacs, Asparagus, A Broken Pear Tree":



Between thunderstorms

a car pulls into the driveway

turns around, then parks,

a little old blonde woman

asks if I remember her



no



she takes a step back

so I can look at her

"I sold you this house"



oh



what she misses most

are the lilacs

in fuller bloom this year

than she's ever seen them,

the lilacs all my friends

are wild about I take

for granted



* * *



and how do I like

her asparagus?



I've never seen it



out by the lilacs

she shows me knee-high stalks

I thought were weeds



and there's more further back,

these were the wild ones



step by step

she tries to walk the rows

she remembers planting

but can barely find them,

shows me last year's stalks

gone to seed,

other plants just starting



after she left it rained 

for three days running.



Who among us over twenty-two has not been the old lady returned to her old house? And which of us has never shown the equivalent of such a woman around her past? It seems to me that just about all poems in this collection are as affecting as this one. Which is why the not-widely-known Ratner has long been in my collection of under-appreciated contemporary American poets, now numbering over a hundred. (She's a first-rate photographer and novelist, too.)

--Bob Grumman
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jun 22 07:53:16 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:53:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Everyone's Dying to Know His Every Opinion
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40D7E56C.24555.2AFC4C@localhost>

On 21 Jun 2004 at 20:02, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
> Menschlichkeit.
> Gemutlichkeit.
> Fahrenheit.

Fahrenheit

Higgledy piggledy
Gabriel Fahrenheit
Curse your ideas about
Counting degrees!
 
Back in the shade of our
Antethermometer
Days we had temperatures
Cooler than these!






From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jun 22 07:54:11 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:54:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

I like Ratner's poem, but I'm not sure it's because "who among us?" I can certainly conceive of not liking a poem about a little old lady who used to own my house showing up suddenly.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:34 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism


  Since I know everyone at New-Poetry is fascinated by everything I do, especially our noble anti-Terrorist, I thought I'd post my latest published work.  It fits into the thread about neglected poets, too.  It's from the issue of Small Press Review just out.

  --Bob G.



  Finding a Home

  House and Home

  Rochelle Ratner

  88 pp; 2003; Pa

  Marsh Hawk Press, Box 220, Stuyvesant Station, 

  New York NY 10009

  www.MarshHawkPress.org

  Finding the telling detail of quotidian experiences and pinning them into permanence with the least number of just-right words is Rochelle Ratner's forte as a poet. Her thirteenth book of poetry, House and Home, conclusively demonstrates this. It is mainly about her finally getting a home in the country after being a city woman most (all?) of her life, but a significant section is devoted to a successful romance which comes across like another kind of finding a home in the country.

  Here's a sample, two excerpts from "Lilacs, Asparagus, A Broken Pear Tree":



  Between thunderstorms

  a car pulls into the driveway

  turns around, then parks,

  a little old blonde woman

  asks if I remember her



  no



  she takes a step back

  so I can look at her

  "I sold you this house"



  oh



  what she misses most

  are the lilacs

  in fuller bloom this year

  than she's ever seen them,

  the lilacs all my friends

  are wild about I take

  for granted



  * * *



  and how do I like

  her asparagus?



  I've never seen it



  out by the lilacs

  she shows me knee-high stalks

  I thought were weeds



  and there's more further back,

  these were the wild ones



  step by step

  she tries to walk the rows

  she remembers planting

  but can barely find them,

  shows me last year's stalks

  gone to seed,

  other plants just starting



  after she left it rained 

  for three days running.



  Who among us over twenty-two has not been the old lady returned to her old house? And which of us has never shown the equivalent of such a woman around her past? It seems to me that just about all poems in this collection are as affecting as this one. Which is why the not-widely-known Ratner has long been in my collection of under-appreciated contemporary American poets, now numbering over a hundred. (She's a first-rate photographer and novelist, too.)

  --Bob Grumman
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jun 22 08:05:13 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:05:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Richard Wilbur on Anthologies
Message-ID: <003f01c45851$38470430$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>


From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jun 22 09:31:53 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:31:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others, criticism by others: More Wilbur on Bynner
Message-ID: <007c01c4585d$4a41b700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

 

Come, warm your hands

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 09:39:36 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:39:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


I like Ratner's poem, but I'm not sure it's because "who among us?" I can certainly conceive of not liking a poem about a little old lady who used to own my house showing up suddenly.

My aim (in a very short review) was to support with the poem my contention that Ratner uses telling details to portray quotidian moments effectively.  I, too, can conceive of any subject matter's turning a reader off, but I would argue that in this case, even such a reader would have to admit that the poem used details effectively--would admit that the poem was a good one, albeit one he didn't care for.

Seems to me a superior reader should always be concerned with two questions about a poem: do I like it? and is it a good poem?  The philistine can't conceive of there being two different answers to these questions.

Anyway, my review's real main purpose was simply to give a reader an idea of Ratner's book--and maybe hype it a bit.

--Bob G.

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 09:43:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:43:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others, criticism by others: More Wilbur on Bynner
References: <007c01c4585d$4a41b700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <0e2901c4585e$ed4dde50$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Yes, good poem, good commentary on it.

--Bob G.


   

  Come, warm your hands

  From the cold wind of time.

  I have built here, under the moon,

  A many-colored fire

  With fragments of wood

  That have been part of a tree

  And part of a ship.

   

  Were leaves more real,

  Or driven nails,

  Or fingers of builders,

  Than these burning violets?

  Come, warm your hands

  From the cold wind of time.

  There's a fire under the moon.

   

  That is a disciplined free-verse poem, varying narrowly between lines of two or

  three stresses, and disposed in two paragraphs of seven lines each. It is about a

  fire made of driftwood on a chill, gusty, and moonlit beach, and the poet invites

  us to share it. The words never forsake their literal subject, and continually render

  the scene more vivid to the eye: driftwood does in fact burn with many colors,

  and through the mention of leaves, nails, shipbuilders' fingers, and violets we

  imagine the several shapes and behaviors of the flames. But of course the cold

  wind of the second line is not merely a wind: it is also "time." The poet invites us

  to meditate, in the presence of a driftwood fire, on that time which coldly

  destroys all things, bringing down the tallest tree and wrecking the best-made

  vessel. We are asked whether the tree and the ship were "more real" than their

  now burning fragments, and it is assumed that we know the answer. I should say

  that Bynner is here doing a dangerous and delicate thing, since it would be so

  possible to construe the whole poem as an invitation to take refuge from a sense

  of temporal loss in Buddha's teaching that all things are illusory and "on fire."

  But even if Grenstone Poems did not begin with a poem ("This Wave") which

  says "What was ended / Has begun," and end with the poet moving forward and

  upward on a Whitmanian spiritual journey, I think that "Driftwood" would be

  sufficiently weighted toward another interpretation. The fire, as Bynner describes

  it, is not simply the annihilation of wood fragments; even as the wrecked ship of

  the poem was built of felled trees, the fire is something "built" of ship's

  driftwood by the poet's hands and offered us as a warming symbolic proof that

  time is not a destroyer but a perpetual renewer. Out of all change comes new life,

  as in the variously colored violets of spring; we are to warm our hands at flames

  in which we see the fingers of dead builders, and then turn to fresh work; and the

  moon, above such a fire, is a light which forever rises and waxes again.

  This brief, plain-seeming, subtle poem, in which all the words prove to be

  working hard, and in which the meaning seems to emerge uncoerced from the

  data, is for my taste more compelling than The New World's grandiloquent

  assertions that "Nothing is lost," and points toward the best qualities of Bynner's

  later achievements.

   
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Tue Jun 22 09:45:18 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:45:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
Message-ID: <7b.2cbdbcb8.2e0991ee@aol.com>

bob,

how different is the ratner poem from an iowa--whatever poem (i can't recall 
the term you use for iowa-template poems)?

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Jun 22 09:52:36 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:52:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others - Bynner
In-Reply-To: <007c01c4585d$4a41b700$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <40D80164.4517.983E84@localhost>

Defeat
Witter Bynner

On a train in Texas German prisoners eat
With white American soldiers, seat by seat,
While black American soldiers sit apart,
The white men eating meat, the black men heart.
Now, with that other war a century done,
Not the live North but the dead South has won,
Not yet a riven nation comes awake.
Who are we fighting this time, for God's sake?
Mark well the token of the separate seat.
It is again ourselves whom we defeat.





From crystallyn at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 09:56:01 2004
From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:56:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] kotzin
In-Reply-To: <200406220542.i5M5gNPX015266@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
References: <200406220542.i5M5gNPX015266@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <d03e49bc04062206567a880cd2@mail.gmail.com>

Miriam's poetry was also included in the June/July issue of Plum Ruby Review. 

http://www.plumrubyreview.com/jun04/poetry/kotzin.htm

If you would like I can forward your email to her...just let me know. 

Best,
Crystal

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:59:54 -0800, Chris Stroffolino
<cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> c.e.---
> 
> thanks for forwarding this. i used to know miriam back in philly
> 
> wow, i'm glad to see she's still around and writing...
> 
> i totally lost touch with her.
> 
> take care,
> 
> chris
> 


-- 
www.plumrubyreview.com
Hitch your wagon to a star. ~ Emerson


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 10:31:15 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:31:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <7b.2cbdbcb8.2e0991ee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <149601c45865$95a339a0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


bob,

how different is the ratner poem from an iowa--whatever poem (i can't recall the term you use for iowa-template poems)?

thom tammaro

I think I'm calling them Iowa Plainlyric Poems now.  The Ratner poem does not seem to me in any way not such a poem.  That does not mean I can't think it a good poem, as I've stated at New-Poetry something like 44-and-a-half times, so far.

--Bob G.
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Tue Jun 22 10:35:44 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:35:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a [sic] from the anti-terrorist
In-Reply-To: <200406221117.i5MBH3XE015998@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040622073207.00bb1078@incoming.verizon.net>

At 07:17 AM 6/22/2004 -0400, CE wrote:

>civility, solidarity, generosity, Menschlikeit  <<(is this just a pun, or do
>you not know the German?)>>
CE,don't you know the Yiddish?

[Jewish Identity, Customs and Values
We continue to study Torah so that students learn to use this book as a 
source for learning and discussion. We now turn to the book of Shemot 
(Exodus) There are several themes that run throughout the story:
?       Leadership
?       Civil disobedience
?       Creating a free and just community: Tzadakah (obligation to create 
justice; particular rules in Torah), Menschlikeit (obligation to be a good 
person), Mitzvah (obligation to do better than we might on our own). ]

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jun 22 10:41:36 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:41:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Simic
Message-ID: <BCFDAF50.A16D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Miracle Glass Co.

Heavy mirror carried
Across the street,
I bow to you
And to everything that appears in you,
Momentarily
And never again the same way:

This street with its pink sky,
Row of gray tenements,
A lone dog,
Children on rollerskates,
Woman buying flowers,
Someone looking lost.

In you, mirror framed in gold
And carried across the street
By someone I can't even see,
To whom, too, I bow.

-- Charles Simic.  *A Wedding in Hell*.  Harcourt Brace, 1994.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jun 22 11:13:32 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:13:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman
Message-ID: <BCFDB6CC.A16F%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Contributor's Note


           --for Nicholas Campbell


Even if he hasn't begun to breathe,
he's begun to live: man, poet, counterman
filthy compound.  His vanity
has made him cyanotic, he whispers to his fingers
one by one.  They turn and write on him.
On the one hand you have the man, on the other
the dream.  There's nothing between them,
why should there be?
           He marches eight miles to your house
and leaves enraged before he's there.
He's saving America from its microchips,
he lifts the weight of the Western States.
When you think of him all your sentences
push at the paper, then fall off.
They've always fallen.
Even Dante couldn't keep his house.

See, he's already begun to age,
and his hand withers and spins down.
He meets Father and Mother
waltzing in a clearing in Indiana twilight
in a whirl of gnats, older brothers,
younger sisters applauding matches ready-made.
He weeps staring over the lake
at the girl who was to be his wife; will he stop staring
when the moon breaks in the water?  They touch;
their children, in vitro, begin to laugh.

And at last he has begun himself to dance,
to rub the grime from his eyes, accuse
the human race of kindness;
his awkward clogging on the shuddering floor
dusts the final hummingbirds
that dart across his face in reconciliation
with his sly words, the blue inky fingers
that smear his shirt.
He says there's no oppression like the oppression
of dreams.  He says it without breathing.

--Benjamin Saltman.   *Mysterious Faces Talking Straight Ahead*.  1996.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 11:36:34 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:36:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com>

As an inferior reader, I'd hold that those are the *last* questions
one ought to concern oneself about. Some years hence I might
have some clear idea about what the first questions are.

I support your support of Rochelle Ratner, however.

Hal

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:39:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

 
Seems to me a superior reader should always be concerned with two
questions about a poem: do I like it? and is it a good poem?
--Bob G.
 
 




-- 
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jun 22 15:57:22 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:57:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman
References: <BCFDB6CC.A16F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002001c45893$234e0910$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

This is a good one. I don't feel any waste here..


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:13 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman


> Contributor's Note
> 
> 
>            --for Nicholas Campbell
> 
> 
> Even if he hasn't begun to breathe,
> he's begun to live: man, poet, counterman
> filthy compound.  His vanity
> has made him cyanotic, he whispers to his fingers
> one by one.  They turn and write on him.
> On the one hand you have the man, on the other
> the dream.  There's nothing between them,
> why should there be?
>            He marches eight miles to your house
> and leaves enraged before he's there.
> He's saving America from its microchips,
> he lifts the weight of the Western States.
> When you think of him all your sentences
> push at the paper, then fall off.
> They've always fallen.
> Even Dante couldn't keep his house.
> 
> See, he's already begun to age,
> and his hand withers and spins down.
> He meets Father and Mother
> waltzing in a clearing in Indiana twilight
> in a whirl of gnats, older brothers,
> younger sisters applauding matches ready-made.
> He weeps staring over the lake
> at the girl who was to be his wife; will he stop staring
> when the moon breaks in the water?  They touch;
> their children, in vitro, begin to laugh.
> 
> And at last he has begun himself to dance,
> to rub the grime from his eyes, accuse
> the human race of kindness;
> his awkward clogging on the shuddering floor
> dusts the final hummingbirds
> that dart across his face in reconciliation
> with his sly words, the blue inky fingers
> that smear his shirt.
> He says there's no oppression like the oppression
> of dreams.  He says it without breathing.
> 
> --Benjamin Saltman.   *Mysterious Faces Talking Straight Ahead*.  1996.
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 22 16:28:11 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:28:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a [sic] from the anti-terrorist
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040622073207.00bb1078@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV60UtI9dm5U000027ae@hotmail.com>

I can understand a lot of Yiddish but I can't spell it; I only really know
German.

Doesn't mean I have to _likeit_.

Men slick height

Chastened, Chaftened, Chaffened, Chaffined.

--CE






----- Original Message ----- 
From: Barry Spacks
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:35 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] a [sic] from the anti-terrorist


At 07:17 AM 6/22/2004 -0400, CE wrote:


civility, solidarity, generosity, Menschlikeit  <<(is this just a pun, or do
you not know the German?)>>

CE,don't you know the Yiddish?

[Jewish Identity, Customs and Values
We continue to study Torah so that students learn to use this book as a
source for learning and discussion. We now turn to the book of Shemot
(Exodus) There are several themes that run throughout the story:
?       Leadership
?       Civil disobedience
?       Creating a free and just community: Tzadakah (obligation to create
justice; particular rules in Torah), Menschlikeit (obligation to be a good
person), Mitzvah (obligation to do better than we might on our own). ]


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 22 16:33:00 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:33:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Simic
References: <BCFDAF50.A16D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV47hQpxU3l50000298b@hotmail.com>

Beautiful humanity and simplicity.

Need to read more Simic.

Thanks for posting this.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:41 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Simic


| Miracle Glass Co.
| 
| Heavy mirror carried
| Across the street,
| I bow to you
| And to everything that appears in you,
| Momentarily
| And never again the same way:
| 
| This street with its pink sky,
| Row of gray tenements,
| A lone dog,
| Children on rollerskates,
| Woman buying flowers,
| Someone looking lost.
| 
| In you, mirror framed in gold
| And carried across the street
| By someone I can't even see,
| To whom, too, I bow.
| 
| -- Charles Simic.  *A Wedding in Hell*.  Harcourt Brace, 1994.
| 
| 
| 
| 
| ====================================================
| David Graham
| grahamd at ripon.edu
| Home Page:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
| Poetry Library:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
| ====================================================
| 
| 
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| 


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 22 16:36:29 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:36:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman
References: <BCFDB6CC.A16F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV45J0sca0Zk000029b8@hotmail.com>

Wow.

Poems like this make me want to stop writing them.

Maybe I should.  Last thing the world needs is another poet.

Any way to e-mail this Mr. Saltman to solicit poems for our humble e-zine?

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:13 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman


| Contributor's Note
| 
| 
|            --for Nicholas Campbell
| 
| 
| Even if he hasn't begun to breathe,
| he's begun to live: man, poet, counterman
| filthy compound.  His vanity
| has made him cyanotic, he whispers to his fingers
| one by one.  They turn and write on him.
| On the one hand you have the man, on the other
| the dream.  There's nothing between them,
| why should there be?
|            He marches eight miles to your house
| and leaves enraged before he's there.
| He's saving America from its microchips,
| he lifts the weight of the Western States.
| When you think of him all your sentences
| push at the paper, then fall off.
| They've always fallen.
| Even Dante couldn't keep his house.
| 
| See, he's already begun to age,
| and his hand withers and spins down.
| He meets Father and Mother
| waltzing in a clearing in Indiana twilight
| in a whirl of gnats, older brothers,
| younger sisters applauding matches ready-made.
| He weeps staring over the lake
| at the girl who was to be his wife; will he stop staring
| when the moon breaks in the water?  They touch;
| their children, in vitro, begin to laugh.
| 
| And at last he has begun himself to dance,
| to rub the grime from his eyes, accuse
| the human race of kindness;
| his awkward clogging on the shuddering floor
| dusts the final hummingbirds
| that dart across his face in reconciliation
| with his sly words, the blue inky fingers
| that smear his shirt.
| He says there's no oppression like the oppression
| of dreams.  He says it without breathing.
| 
| --Benjamin Saltman.   *Mysterious Faces Talking Straight Ahead*.  1996.
| 
| 
| 
| ====================================================
| David Graham
| grahamd at ripon.edu
| Home Page:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
| Poetry Library:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
| ====================================================
| 
| 
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| 


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 17:55:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:55:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman
References: <BCFDB6CC.A16F%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <15d301c458a3$9637cf50$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Haw, this one had resonance for me because I know Nick (aka Harry) Campbell.  Only thing about him not in the poem is his devotion to Catcher in the Rye.  Quite a good poet.  Difficult fellow but I always got along with him--he was in a few jr. college poetry classes with me 30 years ago.

--Bob G.



> Contributor's Note
> 
> 
>            --for Nicholas Campbell
> 
> 
> Even if he hasn't begun to breathe,
> he's begun to live: man, poet, counterman
> filthy compound.  His vanity
> has made him cyanotic, he whispers to his fingers
> one by one.  They turn and write on him.
> On the one hand you have the man, on the other
> the dream.  There's nothing between them,
> why should there be?
>            He marches eight miles to your house
> and leaves enraged before he's there.
> He's saving America from its microchips,
> he lifts the weight of the Western States.
> When you think of him all your sentences
> push at the paper, then fall off.
> They've always fallen.
> Even Dante couldn't keep his house.
> 
> See, he's already begun to age,
> and his hand withers and spins down.
> He meets Father and Mother
> waltzing in a clearing in Indiana twilight
> in a whirl of gnats, older brothers,
> younger sisters applauding matches ready-made.
> He weeps staring over the lake
> at the girl who was to be his wife; will he stop staring
> when the moon breaks in the water?  They touch;
> their children, in vitro, begin to laugh.
> 
> And at last he has begun himself to dance,
> to rub the grime from his eyes, accuse
> the human race of kindness;
> his awkward clogging on the shuddering floor
> dusts the final hummingbirds
> that dart across his face in reconciliation
> with his sly words, the blue inky fingers
> that smear his shirt.
> He says there's no oppression like the oppression
> of dreams.  He says it without breathing.
> 
> --Benjamin Saltman.   *Mysterious Faces Talking Straight Ahead*.  1996.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 18:00:14 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:00:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> As an inferior reader, I'd hold that those are the *last* questions
> one ought to concern oneself about. Some years hence I might
> have some clear idea about what the first questions are.
> I support your support of Rochelle Ratner, however.
> 
> Hal

The actual first question you show ask in some way of a poem is if it's worth reading.  Which should lead in some way to the questions I speak of--which I didn't call the first questions one should ask.  I think they're unavoidable.

What kind of question would you ask at any time of a poem, Hal?  Or, put another way, what would you look for in a poem? 


--Bob
 
Corrected version: "Seems to me a superior reader should always (at some point) be concerned with two questions about a poem: do I like it? and is it a good poem?"

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jun 22 18:42:15 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:42:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV45J0sca0Zk000029b8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BCFE1FF7.A197%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/22/04 3:36 PM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote:

> Wow.
> 
> Poems like this make me want to stop writing them.
> 
> Maybe I should.  Last thing the world needs is another poet.
> 
> Any way to e-mail this Mr. Saltman to solicit poems for our humble e-zine?
> 
> --CE
 

Unfortunately, Benjamin Saltman has died.  I don't know details--he's a poet
I just recently heard of, in fact.

Quite a few poems available at this site:

http://lrc.csun.edu/saltman/

And a review of his final, posthumously published book at Oyster Boy Review:

http://www.oysterboyreview.com/issue/13/RobertsMA-Saltman.html

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:13 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] PBO: Benjamin Saltman
> 
> 
> | Contributor's Note
> | 
> | 
> |            --for Nicholas Campbell
> | 
> | 
> | Even if he hasn't begun to breathe,
> | he's begun to live: man, poet, counterman
> | filthy compound.  His vanity
> | has made him cyanotic, he whispers to his fingers
> | one by one.  They turn and write on him.
> | On the one hand you have the man, on the other
> | the dream.  There's nothing between them,
> | why should there be?
> |            He marches eight miles to your house
> | and leaves enraged before he's there.
> | He's saving America from its microchips,
> | he lifts the weight of the Western States.
> | When you think of him all your sentences
> | push at the paper, then fall off.
> | They've always fallen.
> | Even Dante couldn't keep his house.
> | 
> | See, he's already begun to age,
> | and his hand withers and spins down.
> | He meets Father and Mother
> | waltzing in a clearing in Indiana twilight
> | in a whirl of gnats, older brothers,
> | younger sisters applauding matches ready-made.
> | He weeps staring over the lake
> | at the girl who was to be his wife; will he stop staring
> | when the moon breaks in the water?  They touch;
> | their children, in vitro, begin to laugh.
> | 
> | And at last he has begun himself to dance,
> | to rub the grime from his eyes, accuse
> | the human race of kindness;
> | his awkward clogging on the shuddering floor
> | dusts the final hummingbirds
> | that dart across his face in reconciliation
> | with his sly words, the blue inky fingers
> | that smear his shirt.
> | He says there's no oppression like the oppression
> | of dreams.  He says it without breathing.
> | 
> | --Benjamin Saltman.   *Mysterious Faces Talking Straight Ahead*.  1996.




From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 18:57:39 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:57:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com>

I suppose there really are some questions I'd ask,
but most of them depend on what's in front of me.
I might ask about (and sometimes look up) word
meanings, for example. 

I know of no way to determine at the outset whether
a poem is worth reading or not. My first question,
though, would be addressed to myself, and it would
pertain to whether I, at the time of reading, am in
a situation and frame of mind to give the poem my best 
shot--to clear my head and give it the attention it may or
may not deserve.

I suppose one could infer what I "like" from what I write
or what I post to others, as one can infer my taste in
foods by following me around and taking note of what
I eat or don't eat. Note, though, that what I eat or don't
eat is influenced by many factors--what's available, time
of day, mood, venue, wallet contents, etc. etc. etc.

My usual smartass/serious answer, however, to one who 
asks me if I like what I'm reading (or eating) is "What does
liking have to do with it?" 

As an inferior reader, I don't feel a need to compare poems
in terms of quality--goodness, badness, whatever--unless
I'm taking a final exam or something. And those days are
long gone.

Hal





----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:00:14 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu



> As an inferior reader, I'd hold that those are the *last* questions
> one ought to concern oneself about. Some years hence I might
> have some clear idea about what the first questions are.
> I support your support of Rochelle Ratner, however.
> 
> Hal

The actual first question you show ask in some way of a poem is if
it's worth reading.  Which should lead in some way to the questions I
speak of--which I didn't call the first questions one should ask.  I
think they're unavoidable.
 What kind of question would you ask at any time of a poem, Hal?  Or,
put another way, what would you look for in a poem?
 
 
--Bob
 
Corrected version: "Seems to me a superior reader should always (at
some point) be concerned with two questions about a poem: do I like
it? and is it a good poem?"

 


-- 
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 19:44:11 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:44:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <166e01c458b2$d45dda40$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> I suppose there really are some questions I'd ask,
> but most of them depend on what's in front of me.
> I might ask about (and sometimes look up) word
> meanings, for example.

> I know of no way to determine at the outset whether
> a poem is worth reading or not.

Of course not.  You read till you can decide on that question.  Or do you
keep reading regardless?

>My first question,
> though, would be addressed to myself, and it would
> pertain to whether I, at the time of reading, am in
> a situation and frame of mind to give the poem my best
> shot--to clear my head and give it the attention it may or
> may not deserve.

Okay.  But my concern was with what you ask of the poem, in one way or
another.

> I suppose one could infer what I "like" from what I write
> or what I post to others, as one can infer my taste in
> foods by following me around and taking note of what
> I eat or don't eat. Note, though, that what I eat or don't
> eat is influenced by many factors--what's available, time
> of day, mood, venue, wallet contents, etc. etc. etc.
>
> My usual smartass/serious answer, however, to one who
> asks me if I like what I'm reading (or eating) is "What does
> liking have to do with it?"

Only everything, I guess.  One does, or tries to do, what one likes, and
aovid doing what one does not like.  At least that's the basis of my theory
of human motivation.  I assume that liking can lead to greater pleasures,
and not liking won't.  Liking, in other words, is a necessary prelude to
greater attraction, but won't always get you there.

> As an inferior reader, I don't feel a need to compare poems
> in terms of quality--goodness, badness, whatever--unless
> I'm taking a final exam or something. And those days are
> long gone.
>
> Hal

I don't feel I'm talking about anything near to that.

--Bob G.

Okay, another way of putting it:




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 22 19:39:38 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:39:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40D8C33A.B40232A5@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> As an inferior reader, I don't feel a need to compare poems
> in terms of quality--goodness, badness, whatever--unless
> I'm taking a final exam or something. And those days are
> long gone.

My pent-em-ups (or sentiments) exactly.  Of course, when I'm reading for
The Salt River Review, it is like a final exam, but I'm asking the
questions as well as giving the answers.  I like to think I get an "A,"
or at least a "B," every time.

- Jim

?|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|??|

Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org/
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
Poetserv.com:  http://www.poetserv.com/



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jun 22 19:47:29 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:47:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018301c458b3$47c416c0$501c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I once wrote, specifically talking about Mairead Byrne but it can be applied
in general, that I usually have a certain resistance towards a poet, then
finally or somehow this wall breaks down and from that point on I
practically accept everything. It is a long process and even if I rationally
understand that my fortification will sooner or later be destroyed, it
anyhow builds up on its own and right there.
And with some poets it never crumbles down.

With single poems by poets I do not know, I agree with Halvard. It depends
on the level of concentration or of time I have at the moment. If in ideal
conditions, I accept a poem by the associations it triggers in me. And if
you ask me why I like it, I can go back and let you know why, which is
personal and probably has little to do with the poet him/herself.

Or, and we talked about this on Poetryetc some time ago, there is a voice
behind the poem speaking to me directly, a voice I recognize, and here I do
know that this poet is a great poet. And I accept the poem in its fullness.

And there are many other variations, too.
But Halvard, weren't you in Peru?
Cheers, Anny

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:57 AM


> I suppose there really are some questions I'd ask,
> but most of them depend on what's in front of me.
> I might ask about (and sometimes look up) word
> meanings, for example.
>
> I know of no way to determine at the outset whether
> a poem is worth reading or not. My first question,
> though, would be addressed to myself, and it would
> pertain to whether I, at the time of reading, am in
> a situation and frame of mind to give the poem my best
> shot--to clear my head and give it the attention it may or
> may not deserve.
>
> I suppose one could infer what I "like" from what I write
> or what I post to others, as one can infer my taste in
> foods by following me around and taking note of what
> I eat or don't eat. Note, though, that what I eat or don't
> eat is influenced by many factors--what's available, time
> of day, mood, venue, wallet contents, etc. etc. etc.
>
> My usual smartass/serious answer, however, to one who
> asks me if I like what I'm reading (or eating) is "What does
> liking have to do with it?"
>
> As an inferior reader, I don't feel a need to compare poems
> in terms of quality--goodness, badness, whatever--unless
> I'm taking a final exam or something. And those days are
> long gone.
>
> Hal
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:00:14 -0400
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>
> > As an inferior reader, I'd hold that those are the *last* questions
> > one ought to concern oneself about. Some years hence I might
> > have some clear idea about what the first questions are.
> > I support your support of Rochelle Ratner, however.
> >
> > Hal
>
> The actual first question you show ask in some way of a poem is if
> it's worth reading.  Which should lead in some way to the questions I
> speak of--which I didn't call the first questions one should ask.  I
> think they're unavoidable.
>  What kind of question would you ask at any time of a poem, Hal?  Or,
> put another way, what would you look for in a poem?
>
>
> --Bob
>
> Corrected version: "Seems to me a superior reader should always (at
> some point) be concerned with two questions about a poem: do I like
> it? and is it a good poem?"
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 20:24:13 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:24:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com> <018301c458b3$47c416c0$501c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <16dc01c458b8$6bf7b880$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The question finally resolves to "how do you recognize a poem as worth reading, or continuing to read, or as good enough to make you read other poems by the same poet?" This question has to be answered at some point else you must criterialessly read the whole of every poem that you come across in the order in which you come across it.

--Bob G.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 22 20:36:09 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:36:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anny on resistance
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com> <018301c458b3$47c416c0$501c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV27UYXJVW3r00002e62@hotmail.com>

Anny,

Well said.

I have the same experience...

I don't know if it's my narcissism that prevents me from embracing someone
new
                                               or their narcissism that puts
me off
or what boundary of humility
                              or putting aside of self allows me
                                                         to enter another
poet's house.

What you said about voice is ineffably true.  I think Billy Collins great at
talking directly to the reader but sometimes he puts me off by... for lack
of a better term.... insulting my intelligence?

Yet Eliot slays me, did from the first time I read him, and Mark Strand, at
least his early work, makes me fall right into his head like there never
were any boundaries.

Whitman put me off at first but like Ezra I eventually made peace with him.

Dickinson's voice I think most find irresistible.

Is it humility in a voice that invites us in?  James Packer defined the
virtue as "a sober sense of self-place."

Is it a voice true to itself?  Is it Eliot's _persona_?

I know when I find an old poem of mine it is as if someone else were
speaking to me; it is no longer me.  Sometimes I don't even like the voice
speaking; I find it callow or self-important.  Other times I don't recognize
it, strangely.

Regression in the service of the ego for art's sake, depersonalization and
repersonalization?

The voice.

Who is that talking?

--CE



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism


| I once wrote, specifically talking about Mairead Byrne but it can be
applied
| in general, that I usually have a certain resistance towards a poet, then
| finally or somehow this wall breaks down and from that point on I
| practically accept everything. It is a long process and even if I
rationally
| understand that my fortification will sooner or later be destroyed, it
| anyhow builds up on its own and right there.
| And with some poets it never crumbles down.
|
| With single poems by poets I do not know, I agree with Halvard. It depends
| on the level of concentration or of time I have at the moment. If in ideal
| conditions, I accept a poem by the associations it triggers in me. And if
| you ask me why I like it, I can go back and let you know why, which is
| personal and probably has little to do with the poet him/herself.
|
| Or, and we talked about this on Poetryetc some time ago, there is a voice
| behind the poem speaking to me directly, a voice I recognize, and here I
do
| know that this poet is a great poet. And I accept the poem in its
fullness.
|
| And there are many other variations, too.
| But Halvard, weren't you in Peru?
| Cheers, Anny
|
| From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at gmail.com>
| Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:57 AM
|
|
| > I suppose there really are some questions I'd ask,
| > but most of them depend on what's in front of me.
| > I might ask about (and sometimes look up) word
| > meanings, for example.
| >
| > I know of no way to determine at the outset whether
| > a poem is worth reading or not. My first question,
| > though, would be addressed to myself, and it would
| > pertain to whether I, at the time of reading, am in
| > a situation and frame of mind to give the poem my best
| > shot--to clear my head and give it the attention it may or
| > may not deserve.
| >
| > I suppose one could infer what I "like" from what I write
| > or what I post to others, as one can infer my taste in
| > foods by following me around and taking note of what
| > I eat or don't eat. Note, though, that what I eat or don't
| > eat is influenced by many factors--what's available, time
| > of day, mood, venue, wallet contents, etc. etc. etc.
| >
| > My usual smartass/serious answer, however, to one who
| > asks me if I like what I'm reading (or eating) is "What does
| > liking have to do with it?"
| >
| > As an inferior reader, I don't feel a need to compare poems
| > in terms of quality--goodness, badness, whatever--unless
| > I'm taking a final exam or something. And those days are
| > long gone.
| >
| > Hal
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
| > Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:00:14 -0400
| > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
| > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| >
| >
| >
| > > As an inferior reader, I'd hold that those are the *last* questions
| > > one ought to concern oneself about. Some years hence I might
| > > have some clear idea about what the first questions are.
| > > I support your support of Rochelle Ratner, however.
| > >
| > > Hal
| >
| > The actual first question you show ask in some way of a poem is if
| > it's worth reading.  Which should lead in some way to the questions I
| > speak of--which I didn't call the first questions one should ask.  I
| > think they're unavoidable.
| >  What kind of question would you ask at any time of a poem, Hal?  Or,
| > put another way, what would you look for in a poem?
| >
| >
| > --Bob
| >
| > Corrected version: "Seems to me a superior reader should always (at
| > some point) be concerned with two questions about a poem: do I like
| > it? and is it a good poem?"
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > -- 
| > Hal
| >
| > Halvard Johnson
| > halvard at gmail.com
| > halvard at earthlink.net
| > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
| > _______________________________________________
| > New-Poetry mailing list
| > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 22 21:24:54 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:24:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <8b.e04c884.2e0a35e6@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/21/2004 7:32:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> "Self-evidently"? That's your whole answer? Well, if that's the game, 
> then what's really self-evident is that you've got nothing. You're 
> merely making an unsupported assertion. You've got no theory, no 
> practice, and no relation between the two; all you've got is your 
> mere assertion. And to your mere assertion my mere assertion is 
> equal. You're wrong. That's my assertion, and I claim it's self-
> evident.  What now?
> 

Marcus, judge not, that you may not be judged.
How is my assertion ("Self-evidently") any different 
than your posting one Graham (though unidentified) poem 
and the single remark "How is that any worse?"
Were you not claiming that the Graham poem
was "self-evidently" as bad (or worse) than Seidel.
Finnegan
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From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Jun 22 22:43:38 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:43:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <16dc01c458b8$6bf7b880$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com> <018301c458b3$47c416c0$501c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <16dc01c458b8$6bf7b880$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <f160a1210406221943210bf562@mail.gmail.com>

Well, that's resolved. Good.

Reading without criteria, realizing as well as one can the poem
before one. That's the ticket. Sometimes it happens, and
sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes one can come back to a
poem one's failed at and realize it--or at least part(s)--more fully.
That happens a lot.

Or one can even read *with* criteria, if one feels like it. Or with
one criterion one time (or one time of day); another one, another
time. I've left lots of unrealized poems behind. I've fully realized 
a few perhaps; partially, many, many more.

Hal



----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:24:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


The question finally resolves to "how do you recognize a poem as worth
reading, or continuing to read, or as good enough to make you read
other poems by the same poet?" This question has to be answered at
some point else you must criterialessly read the whole of every poem
that you come across in the order in which you come across it.
 
--Bob G.


-- 
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 22 22:58:50 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:58:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
References: <8b.e04c884.2e0a35e6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV291rAYNokU000031fc@hotmail.com>

Err.  What happened to Seidel's poetry in this discussion?

Just askin',

CE
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Seidel


  In a message dated 6/21/2004 7:32:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes:


    "Self-evidently"? That's your whole answer? Well, if that's the game, 
    then what's really self-evident is that you've got nothing. You're 
    merely making an unsupported assertion. You've got no theory, no 
    practice, and no relation between the two; all you've got is your 
    mere assertion. And to your mere assertion my mere assertion is 
    equal. You're wrong. That's my assertion, and I claim it's self-
    evident.  What now?



  Marcus, judge not, that you may not be judged.
  How is my assertion ("Self-evidently") any different 
  than your posting one Graham (though unidentified) poem 
  and the single remark "How is that any worse?"
  Were you not claiming that the Graham poem
  was "self-evidently" as bad (or worse) than Seidel.
  Finnegan 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 22 23:02:41 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:02:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com> <018301c458b3$47c416c0$501c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <16dc01c458b8$6bf7b880$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406221943210bf562@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <174601c458ce$8eac99c0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Well, that's resolved. Good.
>
> Reading without criteria, realizing as well as one can the poem
> before one. That's the ticket.

And reading poems absolutely randomly, right?  If not, how do you determine
which poems you will read?

--Bob G.




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun 23 00:25:13 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:25:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another by Saltman
Message-ID: <BCFE7059.A1B5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A Hunger

Do you seriously want peace or a good meal
in a restaurant opening onto a garden?
A garden with lights strung in a tree
and raccoons visiting every night,
cleverness in little hands? The raccoons
ignore the lights and the people watching.
The light gleaming along wet telephone
wires and collecting on the white
stone bench.
                        Inside the restaurant I think
of reading my book or tarring my roof
knowing I can still do one but not the other.
For five years I've been waiting to die
and trying to think of something significant.
I wait for a key to slam into a door,
and I sit straight with folded hands.
At least I know how to imitate peace.

Earlier when I saw a man in a black coat
standing in the cold with his children
it was as if they had been standing forever
on a little island. How could they not be
significant? The man would touch his children
on the shoulders at times as if to say
that people would not be this way forever,
that he would forget peace for a meal.

--Benjamin Saltman.  *Sleep & Death the Dream*. Red Hen Press, 1999.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 23 00:43:55 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:43:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another by Saltman
References: <BCFE7059.A1B5%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV12yL4l4VsA000004ff@hotmail.com>

Went to the site, thanks David.

One of the best poets I've never encountered before.

Really.

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:25 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another by Saltman


| A Hunger
| 
| Do you seriously want peace or a good meal
| in a restaurant opening onto a garden?
| A garden with lights strung in a tree
| and raccoons visiting every night,
| cleverness in little hands? The raccoons
| ignore the lights and the people watching.
| The light gleaming along wet telephone
| wires and collecting on the white
| stone bench.
|                         Inside the restaurant I think
| of reading my book or tarring my roof
| knowing I can still do one but not the other.
| For five years I've been waiting to die
| and trying to think of something significant.
| I wait for a key to slam into a door,
| and I sit straight with folded hands.
| At least I know how to imitate peace.
| 
| Earlier when I saw a man in a black coat
| standing in the cold with his children
| it was as if they had been standing forever
| on a little island. How could they not be
| significant? The man would touch his children
| on the shoulders at times as if to say
| that people would not be this way forever,
| that he would forget peace for a meal.
| 
| --Benjamin Saltman.  *Sleep & Death the Dream*. Red Hen Press, 1999.
| 
| 
| 
| ====================================================
| David Graham
| grahamd at ripon.edu
| Home Page:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
| Poetry Library:
| http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
| ====================================================
| 
| 
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| 


From tad at opus40.org  Wed Jun 23 01:02:28 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 01:02:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another by Saltman
References: <BCFE7059.A1B5%grahamd@ripon.edu> <BAY18-DAV12yL4l4VsA000004ff@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c458df$4c998fa0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ>

This guy IS good.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Another by Saltman


> Went to the site, thanks David.
> 
> One of the best poets I've never encountered before.
> 
> Really.
> 
> --CE
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:25 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Another by Saltman
> 
> 
> | A Hunger
> | 
> | Do you seriously want peace or a good meal
> | in a restaurant opening onto a garden?
> | A garden with lights strung in a tree
> | and raccoons visiting every night,
> | cleverness in little hands? The raccoons
> | ignore the lights and the people watching.
> | The light gleaming along wet telephone
> | wires and collecting on the white
> | stone bench.
> |                         Inside the restaurant I think
> | of reading my book or tarring my roof
> | knowing I can still do one but not the other.
> | For five years I've been waiting to die
> | and trying to think of something significant.
> | I wait for a key to slam into a door,
> | and I sit straight with folded hands.
> | At least I know how to imitate peace.
> | 
> | Earlier when I saw a man in a black coat
> | standing in the cold with his children
> | it was as if they had been standing forever
> | on a little island. How could they not be
> | significant? The man would touch his children
> | on the shoulders at times as if to say
> | that people would not be this way forever,
> | that he would forget peace for a meal.
> | 
> | --Benjamin Saltman.  *Sleep & Death the Dream*. Red Hen Press, 1999.
> | 
> | 
> | 
> | ====================================================
> | David Graham
> | grahamd at ripon.edu
> | Home Page:
> | http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> | Poetry Library:
> | http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> | ====================================================
> | 
> | 
> | _______________________________________________
> | New-Poetry mailing list
> | New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> | http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> | 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From kellogg at duke.edu  Wed Jun 23 08:11:15 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:11:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV291rAYNokU000031fc@hotmail.com>
References: <8b.e04c884.2e0a35e6@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV291rAYNokU000031fc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1087992675.40d9736377a39@webmail.duke.edu>

I'll try to post something else by FS later. 

Interesting.  Seidel was one of several names I mentioned, and the only one 
that got any response.  My praise of Thomas Kinsella (and accompanying snide 
remark about the limitations of Seamus Heaney) sank without a ripple.  In 
neither case, I guess, does my view represent anything like conventional 
wisdom.  

Anyway, I'll follow up on Seidel in a bit.  Gotta go right now. 

Quoting "C. E. Chaffin" <eliotpoe at hotmail.com>:

> Err.  What happened to Seidel's poetry in this discussion?
> 
> Just askin',
> 
> CE
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: JforJames at aol.com 
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:24 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Seidel
> 
> 
>   In a message dated 6/21/2004 7:32:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> marcus at designerglass.com writes:
> 
> 
>     "Self-evidently"? That's your whole answer? Well, if that's the game, 
>     then what's really self-evident is that you've got nothing. You're 
>     merely making an unsupported assertion. You've got no theory, no 
>     practice, and no relation between the two; all you've got is your 
>     mere assertion. And to your mere assertion my mere assertion is 
>     equal. You're wrong. That's my assertion, and I claim it's self-
>     evident.  What now?
> 
> 
> 
>   Marcus, judge not, that you may not be judged.
>   How is my assertion ("Self-evidently") any different 
>   than your posting one Graham (though unidentified) poem 
>   and the single remark "How is that any worse?"
>   Were you not claiming that the Graham poem
>   was "self-evidently" as bad (or worse) than Seidel.
>   Finnegan 


David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jun 23 08:21:21 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:21:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <8b.e04c884.2e0a35e6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40D93D81.9694.356A63@localhost>

> marcus at designerglass.com writes:
>     "Self-evidently"? That's your whole answer? Well, if that's the
>     game, then what's really self-evident is that you've got nothing.
>     You're merely making an unsupported assertion. You've got no
>     theory, no practice, and no relation between the two; all you've
>     got is your mere assertion. And to your mere assertion my mere
>     assertion is equal. You're wrong. That's my assertion, and I claim
>     it's self- evident. What now?
> 
On 22 Jun 2004 at 21:24, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Marcus, judge not, that you may not be judged.<

So you float through life without making any judgments, then, do you? 
You can't decide whether to turn left now in front of the oncoming 
semi, or wait for it to go by? You can't decide whether to have sex 
with this undergraduate in exchange for a good grade, or to forego 
the opportunity? You can't decide anything at all, is that what 
you're saying, because you forbear to make any judgments? What a 
strange life you must lead.

> How is my assertion ("Self-evidently") any different 
> than your posting one Graham (though unidentified) poem 
> and the single remark "How is that any worse?"<

I was asking a question, you were stating an assertion. It is, I 
agree, a question that takes a stance, but it's a question after all -
- and the stance is a questioning one. I'd be very interested to hear 
why one of those two is better or worse than the other, and on what 
grounds, and from what evidence, and based on what theories. But no 
one is offering that. Instead you claim that something is "self-
evident" -- and, again, if that's the game, then my view is as self-
evident as yours, and, again, what then?

Marcus




From kellogg at duke.edu  Wed Jun 23 08:40:57 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:40:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <40D93D81.9694.356A63@localhost>
References: <40D93D81.9694.356A63@localhost>
Message-ID: <1087994457.40d97a59a606f@webmail.duke.edu>

Is any judgement about aesthetic issues really self-evident?  Usually "self-
evidence" masks something else, i.e., it _would_ be evident to you, you 
philistine, if you shared my background, education, mental clarity, physical 
strength, and table manners.  Becuase it's not evident to you, clearly the 
defect is in you.   What Bourdieu once called "the 'other's poison effect" -- 
that is, because we find it distasteful, we can't see how another might find 
something of value in it. 

David

Quoting Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>:

> > marcus at designerglass.com writes:
> >     "Self-evidently"? That's your whole answer? Well, if that's the
> >     game, then what's really self-evident is that you've got nothing.
> >     You're merely making an unsupported assertion. You've got no
> >     theory, no practice, and no relation between the two; all you've
> >     got is your mere assertion. And to your mere assertion my mere
> >     assertion is equal. You're wrong. That's my assertion, and I claim
> >     it's self- evident. What now?
> > 
> On 22 Jun 2004 at 21:24, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > Marcus, judge not, that you may not be judged.<
> 
> So you float through life without making any judgments, then, do you? 
> You can't decide whether to turn left now in front of the oncoming 
> semi, or wait for it to go by? You can't decide whether to have sex 
> with this undergraduate in exchange for a good grade, or to forego 
> the opportunity? You can't decide anything at all, is that what 
> you're saying, because you forbear to make any judgments? What a 
> strange life you must lead.
> 
> > How is my assertion ("Self-evidently") any different 
> > than your posting one Graham (though unidentified) poem 
> > and the single remark "How is that any worse?"<
> 
> I was asking a question, you were stating an assertion. It is, I 
> agree, a question that takes a stance, but it's a question after all -
> - and the stance is a questioning one. I'd be very interested to hear 
> why one of those two is better or worse than the other, and on what 
> grounds, and from what evidence, and based on what theories. But no 
> one is offering that. Instead you claim that something is "self-
> evident" -- and, again, if that's the game, then my view is as self-
> evident as yours, and, again, what then?


David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jun 23 09:01:40 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:01:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210406221943210bf562@mail.gmail.com>
References: <16dc01c458b8$6bf7b880$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40D946F4.29121.5A53EA@localhost>

On 22 Jun 2004 at 22:43, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> ... Sometimes one can come back to a
> poem one's failed at and realize it--or at least part(s)--more fully.<

But this has at least the implicit criterion that any collection of 
words that claims to be a poem not only is a poem, but is more fully 
realized, prima facie, in its poemness than a person is in his or her 
personness, so that the poem is always and ever the good and true 
while the person may fail the poem. But the poem cannot fail the 
person; the poem cannot be badly made, or vapid, or banal, or stupid, 
or wrong-headed, or anything except a shining glory on a hill, 
transcendently prepared at any moment to illuminate the person 
prepared to be illuminated. Is that about it, Hal? Any collection of 
words, from porn to instructions for how to torture people, from 
celebrations of rape to gleeful accounts of murder, all nothing but 
poems, ready to illuminate the prepared mind in your view?

Marcus





From halvard at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 09:10:51 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:10:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <174601c458ce$8eac99c0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621152712.00bcb550@incoming.verizon.net> <BAY18-DAV495b6KZmcK0000161c@hotmail.com> <20040621205228.B91637@kpaul.spinweb.net> <BAY18-DAV60iOqz5seu000015dc@hotmail.com> <BAY18-DAV50h3lrGS1D0000179b@hotmail.com> <00cf01c4584c$dfc53a60$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001c01c4584f$a4afc5a0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <0e2101c4585e$5ddbc2f0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406220836613806da@mail.gmail.com> <15e001c458a4$4e571ff0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a12104062215577680922a@mail.gmail.com> <018301c458b3$47c416c0$501c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <16dc01c458b8$6bf7b880$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <f160a1210406221943210bf562@mail.gmail.com> <174601c458ce$8eac99c0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <f160a121040623061060e6f505@mail.gmail.com>

I call it serendipity.

Hal

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:02:41 -0400, Bob Grumman
<bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
> > Well, that's resolved. Good.
> >
> > Reading without criteria, realizing as well as one can the poem
> > before one. That's the ticket.
> 
> And reading poems absolutely randomly, right?  If not, how do you determine
> which poems you will read?
> 
> --Bob G.


-- 
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From halvard at gmail.com  Wed Jun 23 09:12:15 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:12:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] One of My Acts of Terrorism
In-Reply-To: <40D946F4.29121.5A53EA@localhost>
References: <16dc01c458b8$6bf7b880$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <40D946F4.29121.5A53EA@localhost>
Message-ID: <f160a1210406230612636171d1@mail.gmail.com>

Who forgot to take the dog out for its walk?

Hal

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:01:40 -0400, Marcus Bales
<marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> 
> On 22 Jun 2004 at 22:43, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> > ... Sometimes one can come back to a
> > poem one's failed at and realize it--or at least part(s)--more fully.<
> 
> But this has at least the implicit criterion that any collection of
> words that claims to be a poem not only is a poem, but is more fully
> realized, prima facie, in its poemness than a person is in his or her
> personness, so that the poem is always and ever the good and true
> while the person may fail the poem. But the poem cannot fail the
> person; the poem cannot be badly made, or vapid, or banal, or stupid,
> or wrong-headed, or anything except a shining glory on a hill,
> transcendently prepared at any moment to illuminate the person
> prepared to be illuminated. Is that about it, Hal? Any collection of
> words, from porn to instructions for how to torture people, from
> celebrations of rape to gleeful accounts of murder, all nothing but
> poems, ready to illuminate the prepared mind in your view?
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jun 23 09:13:23 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:13:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <1087994457.40d97a59a606f@webmail.duke.edu>
References: <40D93D81.9694.356A63@localhost>
Message-ID: <40D949B3.5419.6510F2@localhost>

> > JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > > Marcus, judge not, that you may not be judged.<
> > 
> > > marcus at designerglass.com writes:
> > So you float through life without making any judgments, then, do
> > you? You can't decide whether to turn left now in front of the
> > oncoming semi, or wait for it to go by? You can't decide whether to
> > have sex with this undergraduate in exchange for a good grade, or to
> > forego the opportunity? You can't decide anything at all, is that
> > what you're saying, because you forbear to make any judgments? What
> > a strange life you must lead.

> > JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > > How is my assertion ("Self-evidently") any different 
> > > than your posting one Graham (though unidentified) poem 
> > > and the single remark "How is that any worse?"<
> > 
> > > marcus at designerglass.com writes:
> > I was asking a question, you were stating an assertion. It is, I
> > agree, a question that takes a stance, but it's a question after all
> > - - and the stance is a questioning one. I'd be very interested to
> > hear why one of those two is better or worse than the other, and on
> > what grounds, and from what evidence, and based on what theories.
> > But no one is offering that. Instead you claim that something is
> > "self- evident" -- and, again, if that's the game, then my view is
> > as self- evident as yours, and, again, what then?

On 23 Jun 2004 at 8:40, David Kellogg wrote:
> Is any judgment about aesthetic issues really self-evident? 
> Usually "self- evidence" masks something else, i.e., it _would_ be
> evident to you, you philistine, if you shared my background,
> education, mental clarity, physical strength, and table manners. 
> Becuase it's not evident to you, clearly the defect is in you.  
> What Bourdieu once called "the 'other's poison effect" -- that is,
> because we find it distasteful, we can't see how another might find
> something of value in it. 

Just so -- and that's why I'm objecting to JforJames's claim of self-
evidentness. Thanks.

Marcus






From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Jun 23 10:31:35 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:31:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <1d3.244ed697.2e0aee47@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/23/2004 7:41:50 AM Central Daylight Time, 
kellogg at duke.edu writes: 
> What Bourdieu once called "the 'other's poison effect" -- 
> that is, because we find it distasteful, we can't see how another might find 
> 
> something of value in it. 

My reaction to the wretched Seidel, alas.
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From lattaj at umich.edu  Wed Jun 23 10:57:13 2004
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:57:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Benjamin Saltman's DECK
In-Reply-To: <1087992675.40d9736377a39@webmail.duke.edu>
References: <8b.e04c884.2e0a35e6@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV291rAYNokU000031fc@hotmail.com>
 <1087992675.40d9736377a39@webmail.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0406231048460.23902@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Glad to see some talk about Benjamin Saltman. At Wendy Battin's CAPA
archives one can read the whole of Saltman's _Deck_, a book I had a hand
in getting printed for Ithaca House, circa 1979. Fifty-two poems: "The
deck was shuffled. The poems follow the sequence of the cards."
Particularly proud of the Bicycle Playing Card cover. Alas, it's a book
that didn't get much attention.

Read it at:

http://capa.conncoll.edu/saltman.deck.htm#


John Latta
http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun 23 11:21:40 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:21:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Benjamin Saltman's DECK
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0406231048460.23902@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <BCFF0A34.A1F3%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/23/04 9:57 AM, John Latta at lattaj at umich.edu wrote:

> 
> Glad to see some talk about Benjamin Saltman. At Wendy Battin's CAPA
> archives one can read the whole of Saltman's _Deck_, a book I had a hand
> in getting printed for Ithaca House, circa 1979. Fifty-two poems: "The
> deck was shuffled. The poems follow the sequence of the cards."
> Particularly proud of the Bicycle Playing Card cover. Alas, it's a book
> that didn't get much attention.
> 
> Read it at:
> 
> http://capa.conncoll.edu/saltman.deck.htm#

John, I'd love to hear more about Saltman, his work, recommended
poems/books, whatever you know.  As I mentioned, he's a poet who just
recently appeared on my radar.  I think I found him in Billy Collins's
*Poetry 180* anthology ("A Hunger"), and went looking for further poems.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From lattaj at umich.edu  Wed Jun 23 11:41:45 2004
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:41:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Benjamin Saltman's DECK
In-Reply-To: <BCFF0A34.A1F3%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BCFF0A34.A1F3%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0406231133440.3896@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

David,

I don't know much. Seems to me he taught at one of the less well-known
schools in the California system, Northbridge? or Riverside? He had a
Lillabulero pamphlet in 1968 and I think I recall seeing other things of
his there as that wound down in the early seventies. Looking around at
various library holdings, it looks like the 1974 _The Leaves the People_
out of Red Hill Press in LA may be the only other full-length collection.
I have the idea that he was well-liked as a teacher (glean'd more recently
off the Web, I think, I forget where). If I corresponded with him at the
time, it was minimally; mostly I recall doing the printing and thinking
there was much to admire there. He's always associated in my mind with
Aucassin and Nicolette--I think there's a reference in DECK--nobody I'd
heard of before, being, then, a young'un.

Best,

John


On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, David Graham wrote:

> on 6/23/04 9:57 AM, John Latta at lattaj at umich.edu wrote:
>
> >
> > Glad to see some talk about Benjamin Saltman. At Wendy Battin's CAPA
> > archives one can read the whole of Saltman's _Deck_, a book I had a hand
> > in getting printed for Ithaca House, circa 1979. Fifty-two poems: "The
> > deck was shuffled. The poems follow the sequence of the cards."
> > Particularly proud of the Bicycle Playing Card cover. Alas, it's a book
> > that didn't get much attention.
> >
> > Read it at:
> >
> > http://capa.conncoll.edu/saltman.deck.htm#
>
> John, I'd love to hear more about Saltman, his work, recommended
> poems/books, whatever you know.  As I mentioned, he's a poet who just
> recently appeared on my radar.  I think I found him in Billy Collins's
> *Poetry 180* anthology ("A Hunger"), and went looking for further poems.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun 23 12:06:09 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:06:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Benjamin Saltman's DECK
References: <BCFF0A34.A1F3%grahamd@ripon.edu> <Pine.SOL.4.58.0406231133440.3896@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <00f901c4593c$01cd5440$25efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> David,
>
> I don't know much. Seems to me he taught at one of the less well-known
> schools in the California system, Northbridge?

Ach, you have defiled my almer mahder!  NORTHRIDGE!

Chee.  Ann Stanford was there when I was in the seventies.  Maybe Saltman,
but I don't remember him.  I was only there two years, though.

--Bob G.






From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun 23 16:41:45 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:41:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A thought from Robert Hass
Message-ID: <BCFF5538.A228%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I said to myself:
some things do not blossom in this life.

I said: what we?ve lost is a story
and what we?ve never had
a song.

--Robert Hass, from "My Mother's Nipples."  *Sun Under Wood*, 1996.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun 23 18:11:18 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:11:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <88.d788f5d.2e0b5a06@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/23/2004 8:21:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
So you float through life without making any judgments, then, do you? 
You can't decide whether to turn left now in front of the oncoming 
semi, or wait for it to go by? You can't decide whether to have sex 
with this undergraduate in exchange for a good grade, or to forego 
the opportunity? You can't decide anything at all, is that what 
you're saying, because you forbear to make any judgments? What a 
strange life you must lead
No, the quote (esp. in full from Matthew) is basically saying 
what comes around goes around when it comes to
judging. Your posting of the Graham poem without 
a significant comment was your summary judgment of its
self-evident deficiency (or equal lameness) compared
to the Seidel example. My quip merely answered yours 
in kind. 
I'd be happy to give you a few reasons I prefer this
particular Graham to this particular Seidel, if you're
really interested. But if you assess the two poems,
as I presume you do from what little you've said, 
as examples of lame (Seidel's) and lamer (Graham's), 
I wondering why we should bother taking this up?
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jun 23 18:39:49 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:39:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
Message-ID: <1e3.2391ff48.2e0b60b5@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/23/2004 9:14:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
Usually "self- evidence" masks something else, i.e., it _would_ be
> evident to you, you philistine, if you shared my background,
> education, mental clarity, physical strength, and table manners. 
> Becuase it's not evident to you, clearly the defect is in you.  
> What Bourdieu once called "the 'other's poison effect" -- that is,
> because we find it distasteful, we can't see how another might find
> something of value in it. 

Just so -- and that's why I'm objecting to JforJames's claim of self-
evidentness. Thanks.
Marcus, the Bordieau quote is pertinent to little  
except "self-evidently" (whether good/bad) as a 
aesthetic assessment.
So we're both tarred with this brush...both of us having
posted thrice (after I hit send) without ever saying anything
of merit or interest about the two poems in question.
Jim F
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jun 24 07:36:43 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:36:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <88.d788f5d.2e0b5a06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40DA848B.23096.1B9F24@localhost>

> In a message dated 6/23/2004 8:21:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> marcus at designerglass.com writes:
>     So you float through life without making any judgments, then, do
>     you? You can't decide whether to turn left now in front of the
>     oncoming semi, or wait for it to go by? You can't decide whether
>     to have sex with this undergraduate in exchange for a good grade,
>     or to forego the opportunity? You can't decide anything at all, is
>     that what you're saying, because you forbear to make any
>     judgments? What a strange life you must lead

On 23 Jun 2004 at 18:11, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> No, the quote (esp. in full from Matthew) is basically saying 
> what comes around goes around when it comes to
> judging.<<

I've never understood the aversion to judging.

> Your posting of the Graham poem without 
> a significant comment was your summary judgment of its
> self-evident deficiency (or equal lameness) compared
> to the Seidel example. My quip merely answered yours 
> in kind.

I posted it as a question: I asked "How is this, which has been 
judged bad, different from that, which has been judged good?" My 
purpose in juxtaposing the two was to inquire into why one of two 
things that seem to be the same sort of thing is judged better than 
the other. On what grounds, by what evidence, through what means are 
these judgments made? The notion that we must not judge seems 
ridiculous. Of course we must judge. The question is what counts as 
evidence of quality or lack of quality?
 
> I'd be happy to give you a few reasons I prefer this
> particular Graham to this particular Seidel, if you're
> really interested. But if you assess the two poems,
> as I presume you do from what little you've said, 
> as examples oflame(Seidel's)and lamer (Graham's), 
> I wondering why we shouldbother taking this up?

Well, hey, if you're really willing to just take my word for it, then 
why, indeed?  But that gets us no further along when it comes to 
judgment, because you'd be simply accepting my assertion. If we're 
looking for a way (and I am -- I hope you are) to make judgments on 
the basis of agreed-on standards by evaluating the things we agree 
count as evidence for and against, then the idea that one of us has 
to simply accede to the other's assertion because it was made first, 
or second, or louder, or softer, or by the moderator instead of a 
member, or on whatever other political grounds, can't be taken as 
sound. 

So why take it up? To show that you do have standards and evidence 
instead of mere assertion. If you only have mere assertion, then, 
again, my assertion is as good as yours, and what then?

Marcus







From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jun 24 07:44:13 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:44:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seidel
In-Reply-To: <1e3.2391ff48.2e0b60b5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40DA864D.17550.227DF6@localhost>

>     Usually "self- evidence" masks something else, i.e., it _would_ be
>     > evident to you, you philistine, if you shared my background, >
>     education, mental clarity, physical strength, and table manners. >
>     Becuase it's not evident to you, clearly the defect is in you. >
>     What Bourdieu once called "the 'other's poison effect" -- that is,
>     > because we find it distasteful, we can't see how another might
>     find > something of value in it. 

Marcus: 
>     Just so -- and that's why I'm objecting to JforJames's claim of
>     self- evidentness. Thanks.
 
>  the Bordieau quote is pertinent to little 
> except "self-evidently" (whether good/bad)as a
> aesthetic assessment.
> So we're both tarred with this brush...both of us having
> posted thrice(after I hit send)without ever saying anything
> of merit or interest about the two poems in question.

I am _asking_ what you, or others, find of merit or interest about 
the two poems in question. I'm trying to find out what standards and 
evidence you, or others, have to offer in support of their merit and 
interest, or lack of it. But your response is to say that their merit 
and interest is self-evident, and that we dare not judge their merit 
and interest because we might ourselves be judged. 

My reply remains: my mere assertion is as good as your mere 
assertion, unless you declare your principles and cast your vote. 
What's with all the jiving and juking about fearing to be judged? You 
can't avoid being judged except by refusing to participate so 
thoroughly that people think you've died and have forgotten you. Is 
that really your ambition -- to die forgotten in human memory while 
you still live?

Marcus




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun 24 08:22:20 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:22:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Oliver
Message-ID: <15a.384b4f51.2e0c217c@aol.com>

posted on Sun, Jun. 20, 2004 
 
Oliver's poetry will reward readers

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/entertainment/8949014.htm?1c

Rilke's influence on Oliver is apparent, and comparisons between the two are 
easy to draw. The poetry of both possesses a spiritual radiance that brings to 
mind what Keats called ?coming continually upon the spirit with a fine 
suddenness.?   
    

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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jun 24 08:36:49 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:36:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
Message-ID: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com>

I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
---
from USATODAY report...

Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of 
best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy. Three 
siblings died from the same illness.

He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry at 
age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker 
inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry, and 
the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who 
wrote a foreword to his second book.
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Jun 24 09:30:33 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:30:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003301c459ef$6df90a70$8e0c9942@Helen>

What do we make of the declining sales? 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:36 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


  I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
  ---
  from USATODAY report...

  Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

  Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy. Three siblings died from the same illness.

  He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry, and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

  His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

  Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

  Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

  Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

  Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

  Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

  His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who wrote a foreword to his second book.
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From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 09:34:39 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:34:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
In-Reply-To: <003301c459ef$6df90a70$8e0c9942@Helen>
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com> <003301c459ef$6df90a70$8e0c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <f160a121040624063451feaa38@mail.gmail.com>

Watch for the coming spike.

Hal

=====


What do we make of the declining sales? 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:36 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong

I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
---
from USATODAY report...

Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of
best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life
story.

Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial
myopathy. Three siblings died from the same illness.

He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing
poetry at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a
little music-maker inside the fabric. I leaned against something while
I was making my poetry, and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy,
listen, that's my heartsong.' "

His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter,
who wrote a foreword to his second book.



-- 
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 24 13:15:01 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:15:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV37oygXLsxp00000adf@hotmail.com>

And Drew Barrymore wrote her autobiography at 14.

Now I haven't read dear Mattie, but I did read Carter's execrable book of verse some years ago in a bookstore.

If Mattie was a prodigy, well good.  I haven't read him.  Heard of the disease, though.

Whatever his merit, all prodigies are not geniuses and all geniuses are not prodigies.

Condolences to his poor parents on their terrible, terrible luck.

Maybe someone can post a poem by him?  Ah, I know, I'm lazy, I should look it up.

--CE
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:36 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


  I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
  ---
  from USATODAY report...

  Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

  Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy. Three siblings died from the same illness.

  He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry, and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

  His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

  Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

  Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

  Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

  Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

  Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

  His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who wrote a foreword to his second book.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 24 13:29:54 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:29:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV482fdjSVCF00005017@hotmail.com>

Well, I found one.  Another was copyrighted, couldn't copy it, "Making Sense of the Senses," which I found better than the example below.  Seems like a search becomes much more about him than his "poetry."

Obviously no prodigy.



December Prayer 

No matter who you are,
Say a prayer this season. 
No matter what your faith,
Say a prayer this season.
No matter how you celebrate,
Say a prayer this season.
There are so many ways 
To celebrate faiths,
There are so many faiths
To celebrate life.
No matter who,
No matter what
No matter how...
You pray. 
Let's say a prayer
This season,
Together, for peace.



Freud would say Mattie was still in the latent phase, that glorious period of childhood between 5 and 12 where we have no cares and play with kites.

To become a poet one needs to tough out adolescence at least, I think.

But God bless Mattie!  Truths often appear in forms the elite may snicker at.  I mean, who can argue with the substance of this poem except a confirmed cynic, provided one allows "prayer" a wide definition.

On the other hand, Mattie's level of writing may be exactly where the American public is with poetry.  Most only see it in greeting cards or inspirational prayers.

--CE









  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:36 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


  I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
  ---
  from USATODAY report...

  Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

  Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy. Three siblings died from the same illness.

  He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry, and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

  His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

  Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

  Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

  Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

  Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

  Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

  His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who wrote a foreword to his second book.
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Jun 24 14:16:07 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:16:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV482fdjSVCF00005017@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009801c45a17$54dca330$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Mattie exists outside of the values we look for from poetry, and I'm not going to say anything negative about him. A loved child is dead.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: C. E. Chaffin 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


  Well, I found one.  Another was copyrighted, couldn't copy it, "Making Sense of the Senses," which I found better than the example below.  Seems like a search becomes much more about him than his "poetry." 

  Obviously no prodigy. 

   

  December Prayer 

  No matter who you are,
  Say a prayer this season. 
  No matter what your faith,
  Say a prayer this season.
  No matter how you celebrate,
  Say a prayer this season.
  There are so many ways 
  To celebrate faiths,
  There are so many faiths
  To celebrate life.
  No matter who,
  No matter what
  No matter how...
  You pray. 
  Let's say a prayer
  This season,
  Together, for peace.



  Freud would say Mattie was still in the latent phase, that glorious period of childhood between 5 and 12 where we have no cares and play with kites.

  To become a poet one needs to tough out adolescence at least, I think.

  But God bless Mattie!  Truths often appear in forms the elite may snicker at.  I mean, who can argue with the substance of this poem except a confirmed cynic, provided one allows "prayer" a wide definition.

  On the other hand, Mattie's level of writing may be exactly where the American public is with poetry.  Most only see it in greeting cards or inspirational prayers.

  --CE









    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: JforJames at aol.com 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:36 AM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


    I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
    ---
    from USATODAY report...

    Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

    Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy. Three siblings died from the same illness.

    He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry, and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

    His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

    Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

    Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

    Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

    Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

    Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

    His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who wrote a foreword to his second book.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 24 14:29:17 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:29:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV482fdjSVCF00005017@hotmail.com> <009801c45a17$54dca330$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV8R7mOuf0fL000021f4@hotmail.com>

If that is true, Moley, we are all lost.

--CE
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


  Mattie exists outside of the values we look for from poetry, and I'm not going to say anything negative about him. A loved child is dead.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: C. E. Chaffin 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:29 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


    Well, I found one.  Another was copyrighted, couldn't copy it, "Making Sense of the Senses," which I found better than the example below.  Seems like a search becomes much more about him than his "poetry." 

    Obviously no prodigy. 


    December Prayer 

    No matter who you are,
    Say a prayer this season. 
    No matter what your faith,
    Say a prayer this season.
    No matter how you celebrate,
    Say a prayer this season.
    There are so many ways 
    To celebrate faiths,
    There are so many faiths
    To celebrate life.
    No matter who,
    No matter what
    No matter how...
    You pray. 
    Let's say a prayer
    This season,
    Together, for peace.



    Freud would say Mattie was still in the latent phase, that glorious period of childhood between 5 and 12 where we have no cares and play with kites.

    To become a poet one needs to tough out adolescence at least, I think.

    But God bless Mattie!  Truths often appear in forms the elite may snicker at.  I mean, who can argue with the substance of this poem except a confirmed cynic, provided one allows "prayer" a wide definition.

    On the other hand, Mattie's level of writing may be exactly where the American public is with poetry.  Most only see it in greeting cards or inspirational prayers.

    --CE









      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: JforJames at aol.com 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:36 AM
      Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


      I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
      ---
      from USATODAY report...

      Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

      Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy. Three siblings died from the same illness.

      He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry, and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

      His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

      Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

      Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

      Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

      Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

      Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

      His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who wrote a foreword to his second book.
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From tad at opus40.org  Thu Jun 24 14:50:54 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:50:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV482fdjSVCF00005017@hotmail.com> <009801c45a17$54dca330$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <BAY18-DAV8R7mOuf0fL000021f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601c45a1c$30448ec0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Well, we may be all lost, but not because of this. There are a lot of people out there who use more or less the same forms that we use, words in more or less grammatical order but broken into lines, with the intent to stimulate thought and feeling. They call this "poetry," and what the hell, they have to call it something, and it's frankly a waste of time to argue the definition. It's therapy, it's self-medication, it's an act of generosity. Sometimes, as with a McKuen, it's manipulative and meretricious. Sometimes, as in the case of Mattie, it isn't. Sometimes it catches on. It does no harm.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: C. E. Chaffin 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


  If that is true, Moley, we are all lost.

  --CE
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: The Old Mole 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:16 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


    Mattie exists outside of the values we look for from poetry, and I'm not going to say anything negative about him. A loved child is dead.

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: C. E. Chaffin 
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


      Well, I found one.  Another was copyrighted, couldn't copy it, "Making Sense of the Senses," which I found better than the example below.  Seems like a search becomes much more about him than his "poetry." 

      Obviously no prodigy. 


      December Prayer 

      No matter who you are,
      Say a prayer this season. 
      No matter what your faith,
      Say a prayer this season.
      No matter how you celebrate,
      Say a prayer this season.
      There are so many ways 
      To celebrate faiths,
      There are so many faiths
      To celebrate life.
      No matter who,
      No matter what
      No matter how...
      You pray. 
      Let's say a prayer
      This season,
      Together, for peace.



      Freud would say Mattie was still in the latent phase, that glorious period of childhood between 5 and 12 where we have no cares and play with kites.

      To become a poet one needs to tough out adolescence at least, I think.

      But God bless Mattie!  Truths often appear in forms the elite may snicker at.  I mean, who can argue with the substance of this poem except a confirmed cynic, provided one allows "prayer" a wide definition.

      On the other hand, Mattie's level of writing may be exactly where the American public is with poetry.  Most only see it in greeting cards or inspirational prayers.

      --CE









        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: JforJames at aol.com 
        To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
        Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:36 AM
        Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


        I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
        ---
        from USATODAY report...

        Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

        Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy. Three siblings died from the same illness.

        He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry, and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

        His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

        Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

        Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

        Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

        Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

        Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

        His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who wrote a foreword to his second book.
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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 24 15:09:44 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:09:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV482fdjSVCF00005017@hotmail.com> <009801c45a17$54dca330$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <BAY18-DAV8R7mOuf0fL000021f4@hotmail.com> <003601c45a1c$30448ec0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV66YLowspDK000051a1@hotmail.com>

Agreed, just that I would hope the thoughts and sentiments which Mattie
expressed have room in poetry and always will.

I'm thinking of Alan Tate's (?) "To a Mouse," for instance.

Or even the Walrus weeping over the oysters.

To our ears, substance without adequate form falls flat.

But as you say, many are content with a more familiar if less accomplished
form.  Don't your friends sometimes send you saccharine or inspirational
rhymes that moved them because they think, as a poet, it would interest you?

And then you say, "Thanks."  Right?

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: The Old Mole
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


Well, we may be all lost, but not because of this. There are a lot of people
out there who use more or less the same forms that we use, words in more or
less grammatical order but broken into lines, with the intent to stimulate
thought and feeling. They call this "poetry," and what the hell, they have
to call it something, and it's frankly a waste of time to argue the
definition. It's therapy, it's self-medication, it's an act of generosity.
Sometimes, as with a McKuen, it's manipulative and meretricious. Sometimes,
as in the case of Mattie, it isn't. Sometimes it catches on. It does no
harm.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: C. E. Chaffin
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


If that is true, Moley, we are all lost.

--CE
----- Original Message ----- 
From: The Old Mole
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


Mattie exists outside of the values we look for from poetry, and I'm not
going to say anything negative about him. A loved child is dead.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: C. E. Chaffin
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


Well, I found one.  Another was copyrighted, couldn't copy it, "Making Sense
of the Senses," which I found better than the example below.  Seems like a
search becomes much more about him than his "poetry."
Obviously no prodigy.
December Prayer
No matter who you are,
Say a prayer this season.
No matter what your faith,
Say a prayer this season.
No matter how you celebrate,
Say a prayer this season.
There are so many ways
To celebrate faiths,
There are so many faiths
To celebrate life.
No matter who,
No matter what
No matter how...
You pray.
Let's say a prayer
This season,
Together, for peace.

Freud would say Mattie was still in the latent phase, that glorious period
of childhood between 5 and 12 where we have no cares and play with kites.
To become a poet one needs to tough out adolescence at least, I think.
But God bless Mattie!  Truths often appear in forms the elite may snicker
at.  I mean, who can argue with the substance of this poem except a
confirmed cynic, provided one allows "prayer" a wide definition.
On the other hand, Mattie's level of writing may be exactly where the
American public is with poetry.  Most only see it in greeting cards or
inspirational prayers.
--CE




----- Original Message ----- 
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:36 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


I feel bad now for snickering at his poetry...
---
from USATODAY report...

Mattie Stepanek, who died Tuesday at age 13, wrote five collections of
best-selling poetry, an achievement as astonishing as his own life story.

Stepanek died from a rare disease, dysautonomic mitochondrial myopathy.
Three siblings died from the same illness.

He wrote that the word "heartsong" came to him while he was writing poetry
at age 5. He recalled he was wearing a "sweatshirt with a little music-maker
inside the fabric. I leaned against something while I was making my poetry,
and the music began. I whispered, 'Mommy, listen, that's my heartsong.' "

His books, published by VSP and Hyperion:

Heartsongs (2002): Sold 200,000 paperbacks, 40,000 hardcovers.

Journey Through Heartsongs (2002): 350,000 copies.

Hope Through Heartsongs (2002): 200,000 copies.

Celebrating Through Heartsongs (2002): 100,000 copies.

Loving Through Heartsongs (2003): 60,000 copies.

His fans include Oprah Winfrey (he was on her show) and Jimmy Carter, who
wrote a foreword to his second book.


From crystallyn at gmail.com  Thu Jun 24 15:39:39 2004
From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:39:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV66YLowspDK000051a1@hotmail.com>
References: <cd.fe8096b.2e0c24e1@aol.com> <BAY18-DAV482fdjSVCF00005017@hotmail.com> <009801c45a17$54dca330$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <BAY18-DAV8R7mOuf0fL000021f4@hotmail.com> <003601c45a1c$30448ec0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <BAY18-DAV66YLowspDK000051a1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <d03e49bc040624123947e87c2c@mail.gmail.com>

I had to add my two cents here. 

I think it's difficult to look at a 13 year old's poetry and comment
on how "good" or "bad" it is. Granted, I'm sure that a lot of his
success was based upon sympathy, but I think that Mattie had a few
things going for him that most kids his age writing poetry don't.

1. He wasn't an obsessively bad rhymer. He experimented with free
verse, which many kids avoid.
2. He was very prolific. 
3. It's not a bunch of sappy lovey dovey or  woe-is-me, angst ridden verse. 
4. He had a high level of support for writing poetry which probably
would have continued, which I think many children lose after the age
of ten.

Let's not forget that he was 13...he was writing from his heart,
spilling out those things that he was trying to figure out a way to
express, sharing a courageous outlook in the face of what was
inevitable. I imagine that he probably never read much other poetry,
probably had never explicated a poem in his life, probably never had
discussions about other poets and poems, and may not have had the
benefit of strong poetic mentors to guide him. We have no idea what he
may have become if he had been able to live to an age where he could
have benefitted from that type of learning and poetic understanding.
Think back to what you wrote when you were 13...I mean, really.

I think that it is completely unfair to judge the merit of his
poetry...it cannot compare. Whether or not he was a prodigy of any
sort is irrelevant. He was a child, expressing strong feelings in the
face of a terminal illness. Whether or not his poetry is ever
remembered or memorable is not important. The fact that he found an
outlet to deal with something terrifying and he found a way to share
his courage and touch the world--I think that's what the real story is
here.

My husband is an artist. We go to galleries and as an "expert" he rips
to shreds paintings and sculpture that have resonated, sometimes
strongly, with me, who is certainly not an expert. I find this no
different. Mattie's verse clearly resonated with many people for many
different reasons. Some poets and artists are fortunate to ride the
tides of fame. Others never find it in their lifetimes. VanGogh didn't
win over any art critics or buyers. Mattie was lucky enough to do so.

I think it's far more productive to remember this child and celebrate
his accomplishments (which I believe are very impressive) as we mourn
a life cut unfairly short.

Crystal

-- 
www.plumrubyreview.com
Hitch your wagon to a star. ~ Emerson


From tedmacker at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 24 15:55:04 2004
From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Teddy Macker)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:55:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2309 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200406241811.i5OIB3XE008643@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20040624195504.3434.qmail@web52608.mail.yahoo.com>

I was hoping I could get some help locating two poems (and I can only-- foggily--remember impressions and words). One was a short poem (or excerpt) about a tree on a hill that's consoling because of its immutability (I remember something to the effect of, 'what could be more consoling than a tree on a hill that's always there for you?'). And for some reason, Goethe's name comes to mind, but I tried looking through his stuff and came up empty-handed. The second poem I read in eighth grade, a very short poem about a guilt-soaked boy who recently killed his first deer (and I remember the snippets 'Believe me now there once was a boy who fed hurt birds sugar water.')  Thanks in advance for any leads.
 
Best,
 
Teddy Macker 

 

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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Jun 24 16:52:41 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:52:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
In-Reply-To: <d03e49bc040624123947e87c2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY18-DAV66YLowspDK000051a1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40DB06D9.12672.1FD9CB@localhost>

On 24 Jun 2004 at 15:39, Crystal King wrote:
> ... I think that it is completely unfair to judge the merit of his
> poetry...it cannot compare. Whether or not he was a prodigy of any
> sort is irrelevant. He was a child, expressing strong feelings in the
> face of a terminal illness. Whether or not his poetry is ever
> remembered or memorable is not important.<

Why isn't it important? The claim for these collections of words is 
that they are poems -- why shouldn't they be judged by comparison to 
other collections of words claimed to be poems? What difference does 
his age or condition make to whether the work itself is significant 
or important, or both? 

Marcus





From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 24 21:34:53 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:34:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <BAY18-DAV66YLowspDK000051a1@hotmail.com> <40DB06D9.12672.1FD9CB@localhost>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV14K8r6beUz000000f4@hotmail.com>

Ouch!

Stuck between Crystal and Marcus, a lose-lose situation.

I was not judging Mattie's poetry, quite the contrary, I hoped the substance
of his blessed thoughts could somehow inform poetry as it is, like a Jane
Kenyon, for instance, in the interest of goodness.

I did not judge.  I, as a psychiatrist, sometimes make comments that may
appear judgmental but which I only consider objective or diagnostic.

Mozart was a prodigy, Einstein not.  Both were geniuses.

Mattie is not.  But how can you not love him?

I have four children, one of whom I attended to during a coma of five days.
She lived but she was no longer mine, but "God's."

Only to say: apples and oranges.

There is poetry and humanity.  Sometimes they cross, sometimes they don't.

Apologies,

CE





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


| On 24 Jun 2004 at 15:39, Crystal King wrote:
| > ... I think that it is completely unfair to judge the merit of his
| > poetry...it cannot compare. Whether or not he was a prodigy of any
| > sort is irrelevant. He was a child, expressing strong feelings in the
| > face of a terminal illness. Whether or not his poetry is ever
| > remembered or memorable is not important.<
|
| Why isn't it important? The claim for these collections of words is
| that they are poems -- why shouldn't they be judged by comparison to
| other collections of words claimed to be poems? What difference does
| his age or condition make to whether the work itself is significant
| or important, or both?
|
| Marcus
|
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
|


From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Jun 25 08:11:19 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:11:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
In-Reply-To: <BAY18-DAV14K8r6beUz000000f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40DBDE27.4684.2FDE60@localhost>

On 24 Jun 2004 at 20:34, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
> ... I did not judge.  I, as a psychiatrist, sometimes make comments
> that may appear judgmental but which I only consider objective or
> diagnostic....<

Isn't THAT convenient! So things are what you claim them to be, 
irrespective of any relation to reality? How nice for you!

Marcus






From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jun 25 09:27:34 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:27:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <40DBDE27.4684.2FDE60@localhost>
Message-ID: <000901c45ab8$2e52d800$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

Hey, it worked for Humpty Dumpty.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


> On 24 Jun 2004 at 20:34, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
> > ... I did not judge.  I, as a psychiatrist, sometimes make comments
> > that may appear judgmental but which I only consider objective or
> > diagnostic....<
> 
> Isn't THAT convenient! So things are what you claim them to be, 
> irrespective of any relation to reality? How nice for you!
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 25 09:44:41 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:44:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <40DBDE27.4684.2FDE60@localhost> <000901c45ab8$2e52d800$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV12zr8cgVtu00005d2b@hotmail.com>

LOL!

--CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "The Old Mole" <tad at opus40.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong


| Hey, it worked for Humpty Dumpty.
| 
| 
| ----- Original Message ----- 
| From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
| To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
| Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:11 AM
| Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
| 
| 
| > On 24 Jun 2004 at 20:34, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
| > > ... I did not judge.  I, as a psychiatrist, sometimes make comments
| > > that may appear judgmental but which I only consider objective or
| > > diagnostic....<
| > 
| > Isn't THAT convenient! So things are what you claim them to be, 
| > irrespective of any relation to reality? How nice for you!
| > 
| > Marcus
| > 
| > 
| > 
| > 
| > _______________________________________________
| > New-Poetry mailing list
| > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| > 
| > 
| 
| _______________________________________________
| New-Poetry mailing list
| New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
| http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
| 


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 25 10:06:06 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:06:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright (aka Fightin' Franz), seasonal poem
Message-ID: <1c6.1b0a3055.2e0d8b4e@aol.com>

Below is a seasonal poem from Franz Wright, winner of the Pulitzer Prize in 
2004 for his collection Walking to Martha's Vineyard, in which this poem 
appears. 
***************************************
 
 
June Storm 
 
Voices from the first dark heartshaped green of summer
leaves, rain;
birds'.
 
What are they called.
 
I'm leaving here, and still don't know.
 
I'm going there, though,
where they are?
I feel this.
 
Feel that I was there
before.
 
I felt this
as a child, and now
I know it.
 
  
 
 
 
***************************************
 

From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Jun 25 10:20:44 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:20:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
In-Reply-To: <000901c45ab8$2e52d800$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <40DBFC7C.16199.A65AE6@localhost>

> > On 24 Jun 2004 at 20:34, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
> > > ... I did not judge.  I, as a psychiatrist, sometimes make
> > > comments that may appear judgmental but which I only consider
> > > objective or diagnostic....<
> > 
> > Isn't THAT convenient! So things are what you claim them to be,
> > irrespective of any relation to reality? How nice for you!
> > Marcus

On 25 Jun 2004 at 9:27, The Old Mole wrote:
> Hey, it worked for Humpty Dumpty.

Is that some kind of yolk?

Marcus







From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 25 10:32:25 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:32:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Unknown Pole, Poet Cyprian Kamil Norwid
Message-ID: <96.e472953.2e0d9179@aol.com>

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/poetry/0,6121,1231595,00.html

Longing for nobility 
 
Poland's great poet, Cyprian Kamil Norwid, is largely unknown outside his 
native country. But he has now been brilliantly served by the publication of 
Selected Poems, says Andrei Navrozov
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From tad at opus40.org  Fri Jun 25 11:11:45 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:11:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mattie's last heartsong
References: <40DBFC7C.16199.A65AE6@localhost>
Message-ID: <004601c45ac6$bc16ece0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

> > > On 24 Jun 2004 at 20:34, C. E. Chaffin wrote:
> > > > ... I did not judge.  I, as a psychiatrist, sometimes make
> > > > comments that may appear judgmental but which I only consider
> > > > objective or diagnostic....<
> > > 
> > > Isn't THAT convenient! So things are what you claim them to be,
> > > irrespective of any relation to reality? How nice for you!
> > > Marcus
> 
> On 25 Jun 2004 at 9:27, The Old Mole wrote:
> > Hey, it worked for Humpty Dumpty.
> 
> Is that some kind of yolk?
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
I confess -- I was fried when I wrote it.






From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Fri Jun 25 22:08:01 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:08:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fwd:_Carl_Rakosi,_1903=AD2004_?=
Message-ID: <A6CE1DCE-C715-11D8-8987-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

> Carl Rakosi, 1903?2004
>
> Tom Devanney writes with this sad news:
> Poet Carl Rakosi died on Friday afternoon June 25 at the age of 100, 
> after a series of strokes, in his home in San Francisco. He was with 
> his family and they were reading Mark Twain and listening to music 
> when he died.
> Jen Hofer writes that Carl's last words, or nearly-last words were 
> these:
> ?A hospice worker had come by in the morning to set things up with 
> them and she was asking Carl if he knew what day it was (he didn?t); 
> or what month (he thought it was September); or what year (he didn?t 
> know); and then she asked him who the president is. He hesitated and 
> Barbara (his daughter) was thinking that maybe he didn?t know that 
> either, but after a pause he said ?Bush ? that bastard!??
> You can read a poem by Carl (with a photo) in the very first issue of 
> Jacket, from 1997:
>
>      http://jacketmagazine.com/01/rakosi01.html
>
> Jacket will publish more material, including a conversation between 
> Carl and Tom Devanney, in Jacket 25.
>
>


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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jun 25 21:56:28 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:56:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Carl Rakosi, =?windows-1252?Q?1903=AD2004_?=
In-Reply-To: <A6CE1DCE-C715-11D8-8987-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
References: <A6CE1DCE-C715-11D8-8987-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <40DCD7CC.8070000@ix.netcom.com>

Carl  graced our magazine with three poems in the latest  Joyce/fellow 
objectivist, Zukofsky, issue. Look for 'Carl Rakosi At 100'

http://www.flashpointmag.com/

CP, FlashPoint Magazine

Wendy Battin wrote:

>     Carl Rakosi, 1903?2004
>
>     Tom Devanney writes with this sad news:
>     Poet Carl Rakosi died on Friday afternoon June 25 at the age of
>     100, after a series of strokes, in his home in San Francisco. He
>     was with his family and they were reading Mark Twain and listening
>     to music when he died.
>     Jen Hofer writes that Carl's last words, or nearly-last words were
>     these:
>     ?A hospice worker had come by in the morning to set things up with
>     them and she was asking Carl if he knew what day it was (he
>     didn?t); or what month (he thought it was September); or what year
>     (he didn?t know); and then she asked him who the president is. He
>     hesitated and Barbara (his daughter) was thinking that maybe he
>     didn?t know that either, but after a pause he said ?Bush ? that
>     bastard!??
>     You can read a poem by Carl (with a photo) in the very first issue
>     of Jacket, from 1997:
>
>     http://jacketmagazine.com/01/rakosi01.html
>
>     Jacket will publish more material, including a conversation
>     between Carl and Tom Devanney, in Jacket 25.
>
>
>
>
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 25 23:04:46 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:04:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fred & Jorie show
Message-ID: <27.5b9952ee.2e0e41ce@aol.com>

Marcus, here are the few words I promised. First off, I come
not condemn either poet. I will say that I have admired 
Seidel poems for their oddity and wryness, their
oblique take on things, and his casual irreverence. 
He would certainly be one of those "mainstream poets"
that are, if anythng, swirling about in the eddies.
This poem embodies some of those characteristics,
but is not doing much for me. The language is rather
inert. The surrealism timid. Only the absurdity rises,
in places., to the occasion. (See stanza 3)
Consider this poem against the wild inventiveness
of James Tate. The deranged logic of Ceravolo
is much more interesting. The raw attack of a Beat, 
like Corso, would do more than muse, bemusedly,
at its own half-hearted unruliness...

March

February is over now.
It went more quickly than the other months.
Why that happens, I wonder.
I rarely count past twenty-seven.

My lover has nine breasts or so
And as many fingers and toes.
She says that she has the answer.
Perhaps I should listen to her.

I am considering suicide. 
I will put my head in a lion's mouth
On the first day of March.
My head will go out like a lamb.

Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
Did that happen in March?
I should consult the almanac.

I have made a large down payment
On an expensive Italian sports car.
I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
The installment plan is forgiving.

Once, on a fast motorcycle,
I met my death on the Ides of March.
Someone had switched the warning signs.
Could it have been my rival?

But my lover has had a mastectomy
And now has only eight breasts or less.
She is also running a slight temperature.
Be thankful for small favors.

March is temporary, of course,
And she has taken all her pills.
Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
For death is final, so say they all.


--
You ask...
"How is that any worse than this:
(& you have the audacity to claim some 
rhetorical high ground with this profound 
and probing question?)
To answer, beyond "Self-evidently,"  I say "[stet]"
as a proof-reader would mark a printed page,
my curt comment stands, and I stand behind it...
This poem, which the email formatting has mangled
to some degree, is going by only its subtitle,
Spring (ital). The real title being "Underneath."
This is telling because I think it is important
to remember that 8 out of 10 of Jorie Graham's
poems are inflected (some would say infected)
with a philosophical concern, but unlike Stevens,
spoken from a more self-aware human speaker. 
This poem, to me, is trying to get at, through poetry,
the "dasein" of what love is. But because Jorie
was educated at the Sorbonne, I'm sure she
thinks of these things in terms of the etre-en-soi. 
What is this thing, itself, that we call love. Especially
when all of what is its physical experience, and that
can be said to merely phenomenal. That being said, 
the lines for which the rest of the poem exists 
are these: 

       Below, his chest, a sacred weightless place
       and the small weight of your open hand     on it.

followed by...

       And these legs, look, still yours, after all you've done with them.

       Explain     the six missing seeds.
       Explain     muzzled.
       Explain     tongue breaks     thin fire      in eyes.

Much of the poem is evocative, incantatory. It's trying
to convey a sense of renewal in face of human frailty 
and the ultimate spectre of death. Thus, Spring (renewal), 
sasses (death) what it follows and all that lies before
it...And the lover interrogates her circumstances, in Spring,
after the release of  love-making. 
The last few lines invoke Hopkins clearly...but then 
change him, as they tilt from the specific adjectives: 
       
       variegated     dappled     spangled     intricately wrought

toward the conceptual...

       complicated     obstruse     subtle     devious 
       scintillating with change and ambiguity ...

The mind not willing to leave well enough, in love, alone. 
The lover asking questions of the beloved, calling to account, 
asking questions that will not be answered, and can't be.

Beyond those lines I mentioned earlier, there are other 
good things happening along the way...

       Breath the emptiest of the freedoms.

and here...

       Up, go.  Let being-seen drift over you again, sticky kindness.  
       
       Those wet strangely unstill eyes filling their heads-

---
Case closed. 
Finnegan


Spring


Up, up you go, you must be introduced.

You must learn      belonging to (no-one)

Drenched in the white veil (day)

The circle of minutes pushed gleaming onto your finger.

Gaps pocking the brightness where you try to see
in.

Missing: corners, fields,

completeness: holes growing in it where the eye looks hardest.

Below, his chest, a sacred weightless place

and the small weight of your open hand     on it.

And these legs, look, still yours, after all you've done with them.

Explain     the six missing seeds.

Explain       muzzled.

Explain     tongue breaks     thin fire      in eyes.


Learn what the great garden-(up, up you go)-exteriority,
exhales:

the green  never-the-less       the green who-did-you-say-you-are

and how it seems to stare all the time, that green,


until night blinds it       temporarily.

What is it searching for all the leaves turning towards you.  

Breath the emptiest of the freedoms.

When will they notice the hole in your head     (they won't).

When will they feel for the hole in your chest  
 (never).  

Up, go.  Let being-seen drift over you again, sticky kindness.  

Those wet strangely unstill eyes filling their heads-


thinking or sight?-

all waiting for the true story-

your heart, beating its little song:  explain. . .

Explain       requited

Explain       indeed the blood of your lives I will require

explain the strange weight of meanwhile

and  there exists another death in regards to which

we are not     immortal

variegated     dappled     spangled     intricately wrought

complicated     obstruse     subtle     devious 

scintillating with change and ambiguity ...



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From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 25 23:15:44 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:15:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Fwd:_Carl_Rakosi=2C_1903=AD2004_?=
References: <A6CE1DCE-C715-11D8-8987-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV10W2bbUk5O00008007@hotmail.com>

Like Stepenak (?), watch for the spike.

Dead poets are worth more than live ones.

The tabloids pay attention to death.  That's our culture, yet not so different from Indian or Celtic burial mounds.

I'd rather go to a funeral than a wedding.

Poem?  "Arundel Tomb" by Philip Larkin.

BTW, Finnegan, I asked to be de-subscribed through July, but my mail to you bounced.  Maybe if you read this you can do me the favor.

Later,

CE


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Wendy Battin 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:08 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Carl Rakosi, 1903?2004 


    Carl Rakosi, 1903?2004

    Tom Devanney writes with this sad news:
    Poet Carl Rakosi died on Friday afternoon June 25 at the age of 100, after a series of strokes, in his home in San Francisco. He was with his family and they were reading Mark Twain and listening to music when he died.
    Jen Hofer writes that Carl's last words, or nearly-last words were these:
    ?A hospice worker had come by in the morning to set things up with them and she was asking Carl if he knew what day it was (he didn?t); or what month (he thought it was September); or what year (he didn?t know); and then she asked him who the president is. He hesitated and Barbara (his daughter) was thinking that maybe he didn?t know that either, but after a pause he said ?Bush ? that bastard!??
    You can read a poem by Carl (with a photo) in the very first issue of Jacket, from 1997:

    http://jacketmagazine.com/01/rakosi01.html

    Jacket will publish more material, including a conversation between Carl and Tom Devanney, in Jacket 25.





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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jun 25 23:38:27 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:38:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] VERSE magazine's new webspace
Message-ID: <116.3459adc2.2e0e49b3@aol.com>

Date:    Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:42:25 -0500
From:    Heidi Peppermint <hpmint at VERIZON.NET>
Subject: VERSE magazine's new webspace

Verse magazine is pleased to announce its new webspace at
versemag.blogspot.com

The site will feature original, online-only material (poems, book
reviews, and magazine reviews) as well as work from previous
issues, information about back issues, announcements and news,
lists of books sent for review, calls for reviewers, and links to sites/
blogs of Verse contributors.

Updated almost daily, the site will be archived monthly. New, original
material will be posted the first week of each month.

The first installment of new material will include poems by Brandon
Downing and Nathan Jones and reviews of Richard Greenfield's A
Carnage in the Lovetrees, Joanna Fuhrman's Ugh Ugh Ocean, Joy
Katz's Fabulae, Oni Buchanan's What Animal, and other books.

Previously published material currently on the site includes poems
by Arielle Greenberg and Stephen Healey and a review of Rosmarie
Waldrop's Reluctant Gravities.

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jun 26 03:24:01 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 09:24:01 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fred & Jorie show
References: <27.5b9952ee.2e0e41ce@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003601c45b4e$8e0167d0$5e1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I need to apologize for my silly comment on Seidel. But I just couldn't take those _nine breasts_. To which I remember I added that I do not like Fellini, which is partly true, the connection is still with breasts, in _Amarcord_ from the little I can remember vivid is the image of that woman with those enormous breasts. It is certainly my problem and if we dig in my personal history then I might be able to find some clues - the one that comes to me right there is that my (dearest - sorry I could have spared you this) grandmother had a mastectomy from which she never recovered. I also commented on the sports car and the Ides of March. Being upset by the allusion to the shape of the body of his (probably) beloved, it was easy for me to define the author a yuppie, a gratuitous observation, or maybe a general truth due to the inclemency of the times - right for me on that occasion.
I will try to get through Seidel with more seriousness and maybe come back on him.
Anny
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 5:04 AM


  Marcus, here are the few words I promised. First off, I come
  not condemn either poet. I will say that I have admired 
  Seidel poems for their oddity and wryness, their
  oblique take on things, and his casual irreverence. 
  He would certainly be one of those "mainstream poets"
  that are, if anythng, swirling about in the eddies.
  This poem embodies some of those characteristics,
  but is not doing much for me. The language is rather
  inert. The surrealism timid. Only the absurdity rises,
  in places., to the occasion. (See stanza 3)
  Consider this poem against the wild inventiveness
  of James Tate. The deranged logic of Ceravolo
  is much more interesting. The raw attack of a Beat, 
  like Corso, would do more than muse, bemusedly,
  at its own half-hearted unruliness...

  March

  February is over now.
  It went more quickly than the other months.
  Why that happens, I wonder.
  I rarely count past twenty-seven.

  My lover has nine breasts or so
  And as many fingers and toes.
  She says that she has the answer.
  Perhaps I should listen to her.

  I am considering suicide. 
  I will put my head in a lion's mouth
  On the first day of March.
  My head will go out like a lamb.

  Good-bye, everybody! Thus, Hart Crane
  As he leapt off the tail of a boat.
  Did that happen in March?
  I should consult the almanac.

  I have made a large down payment
  On an expensive Italian sports car.
  I shall have the rest of our lives to pay it off.
  The installment plan is forgiving.

  Once, on a fast motorcycle,
  I met my death on the Ides of March.
  Someone had switched the warning signs.
  Could it have been my rival?

  But my lover has had a mastectomy
  And now has only eight breasts or less.
  She is also running a slight temperature.
  Be thankful for small favors.

  March is temporary, of course,
  And she has taken all her pills.
  Stick your finger down your throat, my heart,
  For death is final, so say they all.


  --
  You ask...
  "How is that any worse than this:
  (& you have the audacity to claim some 
  rhetorical high ground with this profound 
  and probing question?)
  To answer, beyond "Self-evidently,"  I say "[stet]"
  as a proof-reader would mark a printed page,
  my curt comment stands, and I stand behind it...
  This poem, which the email formatting has mangled
  to some degree, is going by only its subtitle,
  Spring (ital). The real title being "Underneath."
  This is telling because I think it is important
  to remember that 8 out of 10 of Jorie Graham's
  poems are inflected (some would say infected)
  with a philosophical concern, but unlike Stevens,
  spoken from a more self-aware human speaker. 
  This poem, to me, is trying to get at, through poetry,
  the "dasein" of what love is. But because Jorie
  was educated at the Sorbonne, I'm sure she
  thinks of these things in terms of the etre-en-soi. 
  What is this thing, itself, that we call love. Especially
  when all of what is its physical experience, and that
  can be said to merely phenomenal. That being said, 
  the lines for which the rest of the poem exists 
  are these: 

         Below, his chest, a sacred weightless place
         and the small weight of your open hand     on it.

  followed by...

         And these legs, look, still yours, after all you've done with them.

         Explain     the six missing seeds.
         Explain     muzzled.
         Explain     tongue breaks     thin fire      in eyes.

  Much of the poem is evocative, incantatory. It's trying
  to convey a sense of renewal in face of human frailty 
  and the ultimate spectre of death. Thus, Spring (renewal), 
  sasses (death) what it follows and all that lies before
  it...And the lover interrogates her circumstances, in Spring,
  after the release of  love-making. 
  The last few lines invoke Hopkins clearly...but then 
  change him, as they tilt from the specific adjectives: 
         
         variegated     dappled     spangled     intricately wrought

  toward the conceptual...

         complicated     obstruse     subtle     devious 
         scintillating with change and ambiguity ...

  The mind not willing to leave well enough, in love, alone. 
  The lover asking questions of the beloved, calling to account, 
  asking questions that will not be answered, and can't be.

  Beyond those lines I mentioned earlier, there are other 
  good things happening along the way...

         Breath the emptiest of the freedoms.

  and here...

         Up, go.  Let being-seen drift over you again, sticky kindness.  
         
         Those wet strangely unstill eyes filling their heads-

  ---
  Case closed. 
  Finnegan


  Spring


  Up, up you go, you must be introduced.

  You must learn      belonging to (no-one)

  Drenched in the white veil (day)

  The circle of minutes pushed gleaming onto your finger.

  Gaps pocking the brightness where you try to see
  in.

  Missing: corners, fields,

  completeness: holes growing in it where the eye looks hardest.

  Below, his chest, a sacred weightless place

  and the small weight of your open hand     on it.

  And these legs, look, still yours, after all you've done with them.

  Explain     the six missing seeds.

  Explain       muzzled.

  Explain     tongue breaks     thin fire      in eyes.


  Learn what the great garden-(up, up you go)-exteriority,
  exhales:

  the green  never-the-less       the green who-did-you-say-you-are

  and how it seems to stare all the time, that green,


  until night blinds it       temporarily.

  What is it searching for all the leaves turning towards you.  

  Breath the emptiest of the freedoms.

  When will they notice the hole in your head     (they won't).

  When will they feel for the hole in your chest  
  (never).  

  Up, go.  Let being-seen drift over you again, sticky kindness.  

  Those wet strangely unstill eyes filling their heads-


  thinking or sight?-

  all waiting for the true story-

  your heart, beating its little song:  explain. . .

  Explain       requited

  Explain       indeed the blood of your lives I will require

  explain the strange weight of meanwhile

  and  there exists another death in regards to which

  we are not     immortal

  variegated     dappled     spangled     intricately wrought

  complicated     obstruse     subtle     devious 

  scintillating with change and ambiguity ...



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From maxpaul at sfsu.edu  Sat Jun 26 12:57:46 2004
From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (maxpaul at sfsu.edu)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 09:57:46 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Carl Rakosi, =?iso-8859-1?b?MTkwM60yMDA0?=
In-Reply-To: <A6CE1DCE-C715-11D8-8987-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
References: <A6CE1DCE-C715-11D8-8987-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <1088269066.40ddab0a61143@webmail.sfsu.edu>

I spoke to Carl's partner Marilyn yesterdaqy and we agreed that 100 years 
wasn't enough for this splendid man and poet.  Maxine Chernoff

Quoting Wendy Battin <wjbat at conncoll.edu>:

> > Carl Rakosi, 1903?2004
> >
> > Tom Devanney writes with this sad news:
> > Poet Carl Rakosi died on Friday afternoon June 25 at the age of 100, 
> > after a series of strokes, in his home in San Francisco. He was with 
> > his family and they were reading Mark Twain and listening to music 
> > when he died.
> > Jen Hofer writes that Carl's last words, or nearly-last words were 
> > these:
> > ?A hospice worker had come by in the morning to set things up with 
> > them and she was asking Carl if he knew what day it was (he didn?t); 
> > or what month (he thought it was September); or what year (he didn?t 
> > know); and then she asked him who the president is. He hesitated and 
> > Barbara (his daughter) was thinking that maybe he didn?t know that 
> > either, but after a pause he said ?Bush ? that bastard!??
> > You can read a poem by Carl (with a photo) in the very first issue of 
> > Jacket, from 1997:
> >
> >      http://jacketmagazine.com/01/rakosi01.html
> >
> > Jacket will publish more material, including a conversation between 
> > Carl and Tom Devanney, in Jacket 25.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 




From Thom424 at aol.com  Sat Jun 26 14:09:33 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:09:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Assistance Locating Poets
Message-ID: <166.312f8485.2e0f15dd@aol.com>

does anyone have curent contact addresses, e-mail or otherwise, for the 
following poets:

robert cooperman
joseph hargraves
michael n. lindsey
john ridland

and does anyone know contact addresses, e-mail or otherwise, for:

the estate of gwendolyn brooks
the estate of laurence perrine


thanks in advance.

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From MillB at aol.com  Sat Jun 26 14:12:58 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:12:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Assistance Locating Poets
Message-ID: <1f0.24119392.2e0f16aa@aol.com>

Why don't you try the Poets and Writer Directory?
 
_http://www.pw.org/directry/search.html_ 
(http://www.pw.org/directry/search.html) 
 
I just checked and Robert Cooperman is listed.
2061 S Humboldt  St
Denver, CO 80210
_coopermanr at aol.com_ (mailto:coopermanr at aol.com) 
 
 
Good luck,
 
Mill
 
The truth is  rarely pure and never simple.
--Oscar  Wilde

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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Jun 17 02:44:49 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (grahamd at ripon.edu)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:14:49 +0530
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hey, ya! =))
Message-ID: <jqfsglouindqwxbnsmn@ripon.edu>

Looking  forward for  a response  :P

password  for archive: 47256
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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sun Jun 27 01:23:00 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:23:00 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:address
In-Reply-To: <200406270302.i5R323XE027877@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040626221934.00b62b00@incoming.verizon.net>

At 11:02 PM 6/26/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>does anyone have curent contact addresses, e-mail or otherwise, for the
>following poets:
>
>john ridland
>
>johnridland at cox.net
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Sun Jun 27 08:35:15 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:35:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Assistance Locating Poets
Message-ID: <163.3146c76d.2e101903@aol.com>

thanks barry & mill.

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jun 27 10:03:20 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:03:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] virus
Message-ID: <001c01c45c4f$8240e7c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

A virus file sent out to newpo list under david graham's name - don't try to open it.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Jun 27 12:17:24 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:17:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] O'Hara
Message-ID: <BD045D44.A3D5%grahamd@ripon.edu>

In honor of Frank O'Hara's birthday. . . .


TO JOHN ASHBERY

I can't believe there's not
another world where we will sit
and read new poems to each other
high on a mountain in the wind.
You can be Tu Fu, I'll be Po Chu-i
and the Monkey Lady'll be in the moon,
smiling at our ill-fitting heads
as we watch snow settle on a twig.
Or shall we be really gone?  this
is not the grass I saw in my youth!
and if the moon, when it rises
tonight, is empty--a bad sign,
meaning "You go, like the blossoms."

    --Frank O'Hara


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jun 27 12:42:04 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:42:04 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] virus
References: <001c01c45c4f$8240e7c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <006001c45c65$add29d50$e6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I only received a beautiful poem sent by Graham in honor of Frank O'Hara's birthday,
Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: The Old Mole 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 4:03 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] virus


  A virus file sent out to newpo list under david graham's name - don't try to open it.
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Jun 27 13:58:03 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:58:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: virus/O'Hara
In-Reply-To: <006001c45c65$add29d50$e6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <BD0474DB.A3DB%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 6/27/04 11:42 AM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:

I only received a beautiful poem sent by Graham in honor of Frank O'Hara's
birthday,
Anny
----- Original Message -----
From: The Old Mole <mailto:tad at opus40.org>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 4:03 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] virus

A virus file sent out to newpo list under david graham's name - don't try to
open it.
 
I don't know much about viruses, but I sure didn't send one to the list.
Nor did I receive it with my primary email account, on which we have some
good filters & firewalls.  On another account, I notice, it did show up.
But Tad's right:  don't open!

I would venture to say you should never open any attachment that appears on
a list, actually.  

Anyway, back to poetry.  Here's one of my favorites by Frank O'Hara:

AUTOBIOGRAPHIA LITERARIA


When I was a child
I played by myself in a
corner of the schoolyard
all alone.

I hated dolls, and I
hated games, animals were
not friendly and birds
flew away.

If anyone was looking
for me I hid behind a
tree and cried out "I am
an orphan."

And here I am, the
center of all beauty!
writing these poems!
Imagine!
    ---Frank O'Hara


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Jun 27 14:44:49 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:44:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Word of Mouth
Message-ID: <BD047FD1.A3DF%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I've been enjoying & wanted to recommend Catherine Bowman's anthology *Word
of Mouth:  Poems Featured on NPR's All Things Considered* (Vintage, 2003).

Likely many of us have heard a number of these radio spots over the past few
years; it's nice to have many of them collected.  Bowman provides brief,
mostly nondirective introductions to the poets, and each poet generally is
represented by two to four poems.

The table of contents ranges from famous (Milosz) to fairly obscure (Carrie
Allen McCray), and the poems are generally accessible and effective when
read aloud (naturally).  Some poets included:  Belle Waring, Amy Gerstler,
Heather McHugh, Wang Ping, Yusef Komunyakaa, Philip Booth, Marilyn Chin,
Jack Gilbert, Russell Edson, Hal Sirowitz, Lucia Perillo.

For teachers, it might be a good text if you're looking for a cheap
collection of contemporary mainstream voices.

For me the usefulness of such books is twofold:  it introduces me to new
poets (a solid handful in this anthology), and it causes me to look again at
poets or poems I might not have paid sufficient attention to.

Among the poets I've not paid enough attention to is Amy Gerstler, who is
quite prolific, I learn.

Among the poems I was glad to be reminded of:


The Size of Spokane

The baby isn't cute. In fact he's
a homely little pale and headlong
stumbler. Still, he's one
of us--the human beings
stuck on flight 295 (Chicago to Spokane);
and when he passes my seat twice
at full tilt this then that direction,
I look down from Lethal Weapon 3 to see
just why. He's

running back and forth
across a sunblazed circle on
the carpet--something brilliant, fallen
from a porthole. So! it's light
amazing him, it's only light, despite
some three and one
half hundred
people, propped in rows
for him to wonder at; it's light
he can't get over, light he can't
investigate enough, however many
zones he runs across it,
flickering himself.

The umpteenth time
I see him coming, I've had
just about enough; but then
he notices me noticing and stops-
one fat hand on my armrest-to
inspect the oddities of me.

*
Some people cannot hear.
Some people cannot walk.
But everyone was
sunstruck once, and set adrift.
Have we forgotten how
astonishing this is? so practiced all our senses
we cannot imagine them? foreseen instead of seeing
all the all there is? Each spectral port,
each human eye

is shot through with a hole, and everything we know
goes in there, where it feeds a blaze. In a flash

the baby's old; Mel Gibson's hundredth comeback seems
less clever; all his chases and embraces
narrow down, while we
fly on (in our
plain radiance of vehicle)

toward what cannot stay small forever.

-- Heather McHugh




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 27 14:45:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:45:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: virus/O'Hara
References: <BD0474DB.A3DB%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00a501c45c76$feb1d4a0$5befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: virus/O'HaraAnyway, back to poetry.  Here's one of my favorites by Frank O'Hara:

AUTOBIOGRAPHIA LITERARIA


When I was a child
I played by myself in a
corner of the schoolyard
all alone.

I hated dolls, and I
hated games, animals were
not friendly and birds
flew away.

If anyone was looking
for me I hid behind a
tree and cried out "I am
an orphan."

And here I am, the
center of all beauty!
writing these poems!
Imagine!

    ---Frank O'Hara

This poem does nothing technically interesting or orignal, yet--it's perfect.

--the Literary Terrorist

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

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From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Jun 27 14:53:52 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:53:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: virus/O'Hara
In-Reply-To: <00a501c45c76$feb1d4a0$5befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000c01c45c78$1d4ccd60$8a3d1c40@Emily>

Today Bob and Tony agree!!!   Thanks, David.  Thanks, Frank.  Thanks,
Bob.
 
Tony


 
This poem does nothing technically interesting or orignal, yet--it's
perfect.
 
--the Literary Terrorist
 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 27 16:14:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 16:14:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: virus/O'Hara
References: <000c01c45c78$1d4ccd60$8a3d1c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <00e501c45c83$56cd9000$5befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: virus/O'HaraToday Bob and Tony agree!!!   Thanks, David.  Thanks, Frank.  Thanks, Bob.

Tony

Well, Tony, the past couple of days, I've been active at an Internet discussion group devoted to Who Wrote Shakespeare.  Ironically, I'm a stasguard there, for I think you have to be either insane or an imbecile not to believe Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare (assuming you've delved into the question, at all).  Almost everyone else who posts there is an Oxfordian, or one who believes the Earl of Oxford wrote the Shakespearean oeuvre.  These past few days, I've been exhibiting near-maximal cruelty there to a key anti-Shakespeare book, and its author.   So I guess I hadda be nice somewhere.

--Bob G.



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From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Jun 27 16:49:25 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:49:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: virus/O'Hara
In-Reply-To: <00e501c45c83$56cd9000$5befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000201c45c88$4ac07110$fd331c40@Emily>

Bob,
 
Christopher Marlowe wrote Shakespeare.
 
Tony
 
-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 1:14 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: virus/O'Hara
 
Today Bob and Tony agree!!!   Thanks, David.  Thanks, Frank.  Thanks,
Bob.
 
Tony
 
Well, Tony, the past couple of days, I've been active at an Internet
discussion group devoted to Who Wrote Shakespeare.  Ironically, I'm a
stasguard there, for I think you have to be either insane or an imbecile
not to believe Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare (assuming you've delved
into the question, at all).  Almost everyone else who posts there is an
Oxfordian, or one who believes the Earl of Oxford wrote the
Shakespearean oeuvre.  These past few days, I've been exhibiting
near-maximal cruelty there to a key anti-Shakespeare book, and its
author.   So I guess I hadda be nice somewhere.
 
--Bob G.
 
 



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jun 27 17:40:33 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:40:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: virus/O'Hara
References: <000201c45c88$4ac07110$fd331c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <013401c45c8f$62290270$5befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: virus/O'HaraBob,
   

  Christopher Marlowe wrote Shakespeare.

   

  Tony



  Only the blank verse.



  --Bob G.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Jun 27 17:43:32 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:43:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Translation News
Message-ID: <1d0.24860a84.2e109984@cs.com>



John the Valiant
S?ndor Pet?fi
Foreword by George Szirtes
Translated by John Ridland

SERIES: Hesperus Classics
 Poetry - Dual Language Text
 

September 15, 2004 * (USA)
ISBN: pb 1 84391 084 5
144 pp * $15.95 paperback
 
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From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jun 27 22:54:53 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:54:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] virus
References: <001c01c45c4f$8240e7c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <006001c45c65$add29d50$e6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <003a01c45cbb$4ad55070$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

I got that one too. The virus mail came this morning.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 12:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] virus


  I only received a beautiful poem sent by Graham in honor of Frank O'Hara's birthday,
  Anny
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: The Old Mole 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 4:03 PM
    Subject: [New-Poetry] virus


    A virus file sent out to newpo list under david graham's name - don't try to open it.
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jun 27 22:49:47 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:49:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] digital chloroform
In-Reply-To: <003a01c45cbb$4ad55070$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <001c01c45c4f$8240e7c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <006001c45c65$add29d50$e6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <003a01c45cbb$4ad55070$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <40DF874B.5080600@ix.netcom.com>

We consider our managing editor at FlashPoint to be our rock, but 
recently Jack Foley has had enough of this bullshit criticism that we 
only publish ourselves. I'm sure against his better judgment, I'm 
sharing a recent email to me from Jack as well as my brief response. 
(Please note, Jack's comments are not in response to C.D. Chaffin's 
slights.)

<BLAST! and Broom and transition and a lot of those early "little 
magazines" of the 'Teens and 'Twenties are precisely what come to mind 
when I hear contemporary writers/editors complain that it's 
unprofessional to publish oneself or a friend or anyone, solicited or 
unsolicited, whose work is not "vetted" by a "disinterested" editor ... 
who in most cases is an undergrad or grad student scanning opening 
paragraphs/stanzas pro bono.  (I just read Malcolm Cowley's "Exile's 
Return," and publishing each other was what they all did in those 
days.)  My view of contemporary literary magazines is REALLY! less 
disparaging than it will sound.  But essentially they exist as fora for 
MFAs teaching in writer's workshops  (and I have an MFA from Iowa! so I 
don't include me out), and there's a large enough genepool of small 
press mags in the USA that individuals can claim NOT to be committing 
incest with each other.  But who reads them??!!  The purpose of a 
magazine, as I see it, is to publish first-rate work ... who cares where 
it comes from!  Is literary judgment dependent upon certification of the 
absence of acquaintance among authors?  Absurd.  Why does this even need 
stating?!  FlashPoint has a special point of view, and special demands, 
which apparently very few in the Anglo-American literary universe can 
meet.  Yet we get read round the world, as workshop magazines mostly 
don't, and slow as the progress has been in attracting kindred poets, 
you have recently scored a direct hit with Ryskamp.  So I think we're 
doin' better than all right.  Plus at my age, I don't give a shit what 
people who don't publish me think of how I get published.  Who are 
they!!!???

Un petit rant!

--Jack>

The Ryskamp poem is gooooooooooooooood! Ain't it now?

Online magazines like the ones Neff has on his site are what I call 
'digital chloroform.' 

And why would I want some self-anointed editor/moron with the taste of a 
19th century school marm vetting my work. I'm not in the White House 
Chief Counsel's Office where you've got to distinguish 16 flavors of 
shit to hold down a job, all the while knowing its just shit. CP





From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jun 28 07:25:06 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:25:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c45d02$94336350$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Some Poets of Slack Buddha Press:
on Keith Tuma, Alan Halsey & 
K. Lorraine Graham

Forthcoming Ron Silliman readings & talks
(Boston, Seattle, NY, Lawrence, SF, Philly & DC)

Questions for Here Comes Everybody:
What is the relation between the text & the body?

Questions for Here Comes Everybody:
How would you explain poetry to a seven year old?

Questions for Here Comes Everybody:
What is something "non-literary" you read?
(Discourse on sabermetrics)

China as a day job:
The role of the poet in
Joseph Torra's After the Chinese

The poems one "dips into"
again & again
-- "not of one bird but of many"

Lucid dreaming
vs. not dreaming at all

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jun 28 09:21:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:21:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] South of Ourselves: Mexico in the Poems of
Message-ID: <d.2c050926.2e117577@aol.com>

http://www.borderlandnews.com/stories/living/20040627-136082.shtml

From crystallyn at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 14:39:08 2004
From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:39:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Word of Mouth
In-Reply-To: <BD047FD1.A3DF%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BD047FD1.A3DF%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <d03e49bc0406281139567c79d8@mail.gmail.com>

> Among the poems I was glad to be reminded of:
 
> The Size of Spokane
<snip> 
> -- Heather McHugh

Interestingly enough, in 1993, the year I graduated from Whitworth
College, I recall Heather McHugh read a poem that was much like this
one, but I don't know if this was it, or if it was an earlier version.
She was a visiting poet to Whitworth that year. I've always found
great affinity with her work...and not because of anything to do with
that strange little city, my birthplace.

Crystal

-- 
www.plumrubyreview.com
Hitch your wagon to a star. ~ Emerson


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jun 29 10:54:06 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:54:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
Message-ID: <BD06ECBE.A44A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Another poet who has recently appeared on my screen is Catherine Tufariello.
Don't know anything about her, but I like the handful of her poems I've
encountered.  Here's one, from her newly published first collection.




Useful Advice
 
You're 37?  Don't you think that maybe
It's time you settled down and had a baby?
No wine?  Does this mean happy news?  I knew it!
Hey, are you sure you two know how to do it?
All Dennis has to do is look at me
And I'm knocked up.  Some things aren't meant to be.
It's sad, but try to see this as God's will.
I've heard that sometimes when you take the Pill?
A friend of mine got pregnant when she stopped
Working so hard.  Why don't you two adopt?
You'll have one of your own then, like my niece.
At work I heard about this herb from Greece?
My sister swears by dong quai.  Want to try it?
Forget the high-tech stuff.  Just change your diet.
It?s true!  Too much caffeine can make you sterile.
Yoga is good for that.  My cousin Carol?
They have these ceremonies in Peru?
You mind my asking, is it him or you?
Have you tried acupuncture?  Meditation?
It?s in your head.  Relax!  Take a vacation
And have some fun.  You think too much.  Stop trying.
Did I say something wrong?  Why are you crying?
 
--Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Jun 29 11:00:32 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:00:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello 2
In-Reply-To: <BD06ECBE.A44A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BD06EE40.A44C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

And another--


The Feast of Tabernacles


After the final meal hurriedly eaten
Behind doors spattered with lambsblood, sandals and staff
Ready for flight, the rising dough in bowls
Brought on the journey unbaked, the wailing children
Snatched from sleep and huddled into clothes;
After the keening grief when the Egyptians
Found their own children smothered in their beds
Too suddenly for sound, and then the chase
Across the desert to the Sea of Reeds;
After plunging, panicked, through the corridor
Of water impossibly sundered like a chasm
On either side, then seeing the chariots
Of Pharaoh's army roll and disappear,
Shrieking horses and soldiers drowned alike
Under the crumpling walls: after all that,
They must have thought they saw the land of Canaan
Lushly shimmering in the middle distance
Just beyond the column of white smoke?
Never that the high drama of departure
Would be followed by forty years of tedium,
More than fourteen thousand evening meals cooked
And eaten, pots scoured and clothing scrubbed
With never enough water, by stooping women,
While dust and sand got into everything.
Manna, glazing the ground the first morning
Of exile like flakes of hoarfrost, celestial food
Tasting of honey and coriander seed,
Soon grew monotonous as a steady diet.
For Moses, the exclusive interviews
On Sinai punctuated weary years
Of settling quarrels, hearing footsore stragglers
Ask again if they were almost there,
Or grumble resentfully that even bondage
Was better than a life of wandering.
Think how long it must have been before
The death of bitter nostalgia, then of desire
For a promised land that none would ever see;
Longer still before they welcomed joy
To the temporary shelter of the way,
Stars shining through the scattered branches.


--Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Jun 29 11:07:11 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:07:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
Message-ID: <11.2d160a17.2e12df9f@cs.com>

In a message dated 6/29/2004 7:54:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> 
> Another poet who has recently appeared on my screen is Catherine Tufariello.
> Don't know anything about her, but I like the handful of her poems I've
> encountered.  Here's one, from her newly published first collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Useful Advice
> 
> You're 37?  Don't you think that maybe
> It's time you settled down and had a baby?
> No wine?  Does this mean happy news?  I knew it!
> Hey, are you sure you two know how to do it?
> All Dennis has to do is look at me
> And I'm knocked up.  Some things aren't meant to be.
> It's sad, but try to see this as God's will.
> I've heard that sometimes when you take the Pill?
> A friend of mine got pregnant when she stopped
> Working so hard.  Why don't you two adopt?
> You'll have one of your own then, like my niece.
> At work I heard about this herb from Greece?
> My sister swears by dong quai.  Want to try it?
> Forget the high-tech stuff.  Just change your diet.
> It?s true!  Too much caffeine can make you sterile.
> Yoga is good for that.  My cousin Carol?
> They have these ceremonies in Peru?
> You mind my asking, is it him or you?
> Have you tried acupuncture?  Meditation?
> It?s in your head.  Relax!  Take a vacation
> And have some fun.  You think too much.  Stop trying.
> Did I say something wrong?  Why are you crying?
> 
> --Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.
> 
This poem appears in Poetry: A Pocket Anthology.  I highly recommend the 
book.
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From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jun 29 11:19:17 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:19:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello 2
References: <BD06EE40.A44C%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00d701c45dec$736943c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

The first one's witty and inventive. The second doesn't break too much new
ground for me.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:00 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello 2


And another--


The Feast of Tabernacles


After the final meal hurriedly eaten
Behind doors spattered with lambsblood, sandals and staff
Ready for flight, the rising dough in bowls
Brought on the journey unbaked, the wailing children
Snatched from sleep and huddled into clothes;
After the keening grief when the Egyptians
Found their own children smothered in their beds
Too suddenly for sound, and then the chase
Across the desert to the Sea of Reeds;
After plunging, panicked, through the corridor
Of water impossibly sundered like a chasm
On either side, then seeing the chariots
Of Pharaoh's army roll and disappear,
Shrieking horses and soldiers drowned alike
Under the crumpling walls: after all that,
They must have thought they saw the land of Canaan
Lushly shimmering in the middle distance
Just beyond the column of white smoke<
Never that the high drama of departure
Would be followed by forty years of tedium,
More than fourteen thousand evening meals cooked
And eaten, pots scoured and clothing scrubbed
With never enough water, by stooping women,
While dust and sand got into everything.
Manna, glazing the ground the first morning
Of exile like flakes of hoarfrost, celestial food
Tasting of honey and coriander seed,
Soon grew monotonous as a steady diet.
For Moses, the exclusive interviews
On Sinai punctuated weary years
Of settling quarrels, hearing footsore stragglers
Ask again if they were almost there,
Or grumble resentfully that even bondage
Was better than a life of wandering.
Think how long it must have been before
The death of bitter nostalgia, then of desire
For a promised land that none would ever see;
Longer still before they welcomed joy
To the temporary shelter of the way,
Stars shining through the scattered branches.


--Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 29 12:41:56 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:41:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
References: <11.2d160a17.2e12df9f@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00c601c45df8$00227fb0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

A poet who has not just read Dear Abby, but really given her insights a lot of thought--and can rhyme, too--and stay in meter!

The second one is very slightly better--Abby-empathy with the Chosen People's Flight.


Useful Advice

You're 37?  Don't you think that maybe
It's time you settled down and had a baby?
No wine?  Does this mean happy news?  I knew it!
Hey, are you sure you two know how to do it?
All Dennis has to do is look at me
And I'm knocked up.  Some things aren't meant to be.
It's sad, but try to see this as God's will.
I've heard that sometimes when you take the Pill?
A friend of mine got pregnant when she stopped
Working so hard.  Why don't you two adopt?
You'll have one of your own then, like my niece.
At work I heard about this herb from Greece?
My sister swears by dong quai.  Want to try it?
Forget the high-tech stuff.  Just change your diet.
It?s true!  Too much caffeine can make you sterile.
Yoga is good for that.  My cousin Carol?
They have these ceremonies in Peru?
You mind my asking, is it him or you?
Have you tried acupuncture?  Meditation?
It?s in your head.  Relax!  Take a vacation
And have some fun.  You think too much.  Stop trying.
Did I say something wrong?  Why are you crying?

--Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.


  This poem appears in Poetry: A Pocket Anthology.  I highly recommend the book. 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Jun 29 12:48:03 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:48:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello 2
References: <BD06EE40.A44C%grahamd@ripon.edu> <00d701c45dec$736943c0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <00e201c45df8$db8dea80$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> The first one's witty and inventive. The second doesn't break too much new
> ground for me.

--You must not keep up on Women Problems, Mole; I sure try not to but it
seems to me I've read a million of these complaints about having trouble
keeping population growth going and not getting the right response to your
dilemma from others--or having any problem that others are horrible enough
to make light of or otherwise fail to Pay Proper Respect to.

--Bob G., back to terrorism





From elemenope at icubed.com  Tue Jun 29 02:14:41 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:14:41 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
Message-ID: <a05100306bd06b925f8b9@[204.215.202.114]>

Mr. President:

Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -

Condi

"LET FREEDOM RING!"


-- 
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From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Tue Jun 29 14:31:49 2004
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:31:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
In-Reply-To: <BD06ECBE.A44A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10406291349.B@muahost.valpo.edu>

David,

How nice to see Catherine's name appear on the list with a couple of 
her poems.  I also like her first collection, Keeping My Name, very 
much.  It was the Walt McDonald First Book Award winner at Texas Tech 
University Press.

In addition, Catherine is a new neighbor of mine, as she and her 
family have just moved in a few homes down the block from my house.  
She will begin teaching at Valparaiso this fall, and I have her 
scheduled as a featured poet in one of next year's issues of 
Valparaiso Poetry Review. 

Therefore, I'm pleased to see others respond favorably to her fine 
poetry.  I'll be sure to pass along your complimentary comment.

--Ed

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:54:06 -0500 David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> 
wrote:

> Another poet who has recently appeared on my screen is Catherine 
> Tufariello. Don't know anything about her, but I like the handful of 
> her poems I've encountered.  Here's one, from her newly published 
> first collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Useful Advice
>  
> You're 37?  Don't you think that maybe
> It's time you settled down and had a baby?
> No wine?  Does this mean happy news?  I knew it!
> Hey, are you sure you two know how to do it?
> All Dennis has to do is look at me
> And I'm knocked up.  Some things aren't meant to be.
> It's sad, but try to see this as God's will.
> I've heard that sometimes when you take the Pill?
> A friend of mine got pregnant when she stopped
> Working so hard.  Why don't you two adopt?
> You'll have one of your own then, like my niece.
> At work I heard about this herb from Greece?
> My sister swears by dong quai.  Want to try it?
> Forget the high-tech stuff.  Just change your diet.
> It?s true!  Too much caffeine can make you sterile.
> Yoga is good for that.  My cousin Carol?
> They have these ceremonies in Peru?
> You mind my asking, is it him or you?
> Have you tried acupuncture?  Meditation?
> It?s in your head.  Relax!  Take a vacation
> And have some fun.  You think too much.  Stop trying.
> Did I say something wrong?  Why are you crying?
>  
> --Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 29 14:29:20 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:29:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
References: <a05100306bd06b925f8b9@[204.215.202.114]>
Message-ID: <40E1B501.E7BE6C55@earthlink.net>

Any guesses on when that was rehearsed?

- Jim

ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
> 
> Mr. President:
> 
> Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq
> time -
> 
> Condi
> 
> "LET FREEDOM RING!"
> 
> --


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 29 14:39:13 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:39:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
References: <BD06ECBE.A44A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <40E1B752.8B126EBD@earthlink.net>

I'll have to keep this poem a secret
from students who would fleece it.
Bank on it. You can make a deposit.
But you must congratulate her
for a sonorous non-sequiter.

- Jim

David Graham wrote:
> 
> Another poet who has recently appeared on my screen is Catherine Tufariello.
> Don't know anything about her, but I like the handful of her poems I've
> encountered.  Here's one, from her newly published first collection.
> 
> Useful Advice
> 
> You're 37?  Don't you think that maybe
> It's time you settled down and had a baby?
> No wine?  Does this mean happy news?  I knew it!
> Hey, are you sure you two know how to do it?
> All Dennis has to do is look at me
> And I'm knocked up.  Some things aren't meant to be.
> It's sad, but try to see this as God's will.
> I've heard that sometimes when you take the Pill?
> A friend of mine got pregnant when she stopped
> Working so hard.  Why don't you two adopt?
> You'll have one of your own then, like my niece.
> At work I heard about this herb from Greece?
> My sister swears by dong quai.  Want to try it?
> Forget the high-tech stuff.  Just change your diet.
> It1s true!  Too much caffeine can make you sterile.
> Yoga is good for that.  My cousin Carol?
> They have these ceremonies in Peru?
> You mind my asking, is it him or you?
> Have you tried acupuncture?  Meditation?
> It1s in your head.  Relax!  Take a vacation
> And have some fun.  You think too much.  Stop trying.
> Did I say something wrong?  Why are you crying?
> 
> --Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jun 29 07:49:43 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 06:49:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
In-Reply-To: <BD06ECBE.A44A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BD06C187.6AA4%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 6/29/04 9:54 AM, "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> Another poet who has recently appeared on my screen is Catherine Tufariello.
> Don't know anything about her, but I like the handful of her poems I've
> encountered.  Here's one, from her newly published first collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Useful Advice
> 
> You're 37?  Don't you think that maybe
> It's time you settled down and had a baby?
> No wine?  Does this mean happy news?  I knew it!
> Hey, are you sure you two know how to do it?
> All Dennis has to do is look at me
> And I'm knocked up.  Some things aren't meant to be.
> It's sad, but try to see this as God's will.
> I've heard that sometimes when you take the Pill?
> A friend of mine got pregnant when she stopped
> Working so hard.  Why don't you two adopt?
> You'll have one of your own then, like my niece.
> At work I heard about this herb from Greece?
> My sister swears by dong quai.  Want to try it?
> Forget the high-tech stuff.  Just change your diet.
> It?s true!  Too much caffeine can make you sterile.
> Yoga is good for that.  My cousin Carol?
> They have these ceremonies in Peru?
> You mind my asking, is it him or you?
> Have you tried acupuncture?  Meditation?
> It?s in your head.  Relax!  Take a vacation
> And have some fun.  You think too much.  Stop trying.
> Did I say something wrong?  Why are you crying?
> 
> --Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.
> 
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
I liked this poem, too, since I first encountered it. I just bought
Catherine Tufariello's first book at the West Chester conference where I
somehow managed to miss meeting her, though we've exchanged emails since.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Tue Jun 29 15:15:20 2004
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:15:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
In-Reply-To: <a05100306bd06b925f8b9@[204.215.202.114]>
References: <a05100306bd06b925f8b9@[204.215.202.114]>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040629141502.01c4d430@mail.ilstu.edu>

No, he wrote: "Let Freedom Reign."

At 01:14 AM 6/29/2004, you wrote:
>Mr. President:
>
>Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -
>
>Condi
>
>"LET FREEDOM RING!"
>
>
>
>--

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From tad at opus40.org  Tue Jun 29 22:09:49 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:09:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
References: <a05100306bd06b925f8b9@[204.215.202.114]> <6.0.2.0.2.20040629141502.01c4d430@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <003601c45e47$53f153b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

If it were real, wouldn't it start "dearest Georgie"?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill Morgan 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi


  No, he wrote: "Let Freedom Reign."

  At 01:14 AM 6/29/2004, you wrote:

    Mr. President:

    Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -

    Condi

    "LET FREEDOM RING!"




-- 

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From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Tue Jun 29 22:16:47 2004
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:16:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
In-Reply-To: <003601c45e47$53f153b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
References: <a05100306bd06b925f8b9@[204.215.202.114]>
 <6.0.2.0.2.20040629141502.01c4d430@mail.ilstu.edu>
 <003601c45e47$53f153b0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040629211441.01c3c558@mail.ilstu.edu>

Maybe so, but the facsimile in this morning's paper sure looked 
real--business-like ballpoint hand from Condi, confident felt-tip scrawl 
from W.

At 09:09 PM 6/29/2004, you wrote:
>If it were real, wouldn't it start "dearest Georgie"?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:wwmorgan at ilstu.edu>Bill Morgan
>To: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
>
>No, he wrote: "Let Freedom Reign."
>
>At 01:14 AM 6/29/2004, you wrote:
>>Mr. President:
>>
>>Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -
>>
>>Condi
>>
>>"LET FREEDOM RING!"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--

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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 29 22:58:40 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:58:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
Message-ID: <1eb.24167057.2e138660@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/29/2004 10:19:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
wwmorgan at ilstu.edu writes:

> Mr. President:
> 
> Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -
> 
> Condi
> 
> 

I think the interesting thing here is the word "sovereign". 
It means so little: Iraqi was sovereign under Saddam Hussein.
Some of the worst states in all history were sovereign.

I note that our Executive Branch is also the sovereign of a 
very interesting little parcel leased land in Cuba called Git-mo. 
Let freedom ring and the rule of law, too.
Finnegan
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From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 29 22:59:22 2004
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:59:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
Message-ID: <BAY12-F80C1h1jYhAOy00022960@hotmail.com>

I'm gonna weigh in with my opinion on Tufariello. I just recently read her 
book, and I loved it. I highly recommend it. It's a great book and she's a 
wonderful poet.

jason




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jun 29 23:18:34 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:18:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
Message-ID: <1eb.2416497f.2e138b0a@aol.com>

David, this looks like another variant on your favorite
sub-genre, "ultra-talk." But this time it's u-t with rime.
Finnegan

---
Another poet who has recently appeared on my screen is Catherine Tufariello.
Don't know anything about her, but I like the handful of her poems I've
encountered.  Here's one, from her newly published first collection.




Useful Advice
 
You're 37?  Don't you think that maybe
It's time you settled down and had a baby?
No wine?  Does this mean happy news?  I knew it!
Hey, are you sure you two know how to do it?
All Dennis has to do is look at me
And I'm knocked up.  Some things aren't meant to be.
It's sad, but try to see this as God's will.
I've heard that sometimes when you take the Pill?
A friend of mine got pregnant when she stopped
Working so hard.  Why don't you two adopt?
You'll have one of your own then, like my niece.
At work I heard about this herb from Greece?
My sister swears by dong quai.  Want to try it?
Forget the high-tech stuff.  Just change your diet.
It?s true!  Too much caffeine can make you sterile.
Yoga is good for that.  My cousin Carol?
They have these ceremonies in Peru?
You mind my asking, is it him or you?
Have you tried acupuncture?  Meditation?
It?s in your head.  Relax!  Take a vacation
And have some fun.  You think too much.  Stop trying.
Did I say something wrong?  Why are you crying?
 
--Catherine Tufariello.  *Keeping My Name*.  Texas Tech UP, 2004.

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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Tue Jun 29 23:29:48 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
In-Reply-To: <1eb.24167057.2e138660@aol.com>
References: <1eb.24167057.2e138660@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040629222927.V9881@kpaul.spinweb.net>

we got the bases
you get the mess
we got the oil
deal with the rest

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/29/2004 10:19:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wwmorgan at ilstu.edu writes:
>
>> Mr. President:
>>
>> Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -
>>
>> Condi
>>
>>
>
> I think the interesting thing here is the word "sovereign".
> It means so little: Iraqi was sovereign under Saddam Hussein.
> Some of the worst states in all history were sovereign.
>
> I note that our Executive Branch is also the sovereign of a
> very interesting little parcel leased land in Cuba called Git-mo.
> Let freedom ring and the rule of law, too.
> Finnegan
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jun 30 07:48:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:48:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tufariello
References: <BAY12-F80C1h1jYhAOy00022960@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009201c45e98$39af82a0$64efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I'm gonna weigh in with my opinion on Tufariello. I just recently read her
> book, and I loved it. I highly recommend it. It's a great book and she's a
> wonderful poet.
>
> jason

Okay, now say why.

--the Terrorist
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From clitophon at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 30 10:03:55 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
In-Reply-To: <a05100306bd06b925f8b9@[204.215.202.114]>
Message-ID: <20040630140355.81421.qmail@web40411.mail.yahoo.com>

I can't believe that your still on the go and now your
a PLC too.  I'm sure you've noticed the direction of
events.  Your still having lexical difficulties
although it must be said that your President has many,
many more.  I thought you should have been thrown off
Brit Poets for your behaviour but someone says that
you actually run the thing now!  How much did you pay
the previous list owner, may I ask that?  Or did you
give him good head?
Go and fuck, asshole!  

--- ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
wrote:
> Mr. President:
> 
> Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at
> 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -
> 
> Condi
> 
> "LET FREEDOM RING!"
> 
> 
> -- 



		
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Jun 30 13:01:43 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:01:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Milosz
Message-ID: <BD085C27.A549%grahamd@ripon.edu>

And a happy 93rd birthday to Czeslaw Milosz . . . .



BLACKSMITH SHOP


I liked the bellows operated by rope.
A hand or foot pedal--I don?t remember which.
But that blowing, and the blazing of the fire!
And a piece of iron in the fire, held there by tongs,
Red, softened for the anvil,
Beaten with the hammer, bent into a horseshoe,
Thrown in a bucket of water, sizzle, steam.

And horses hitched to be shod,
Tossing their manes; and in the grass by the river
Plowshares, sledge runners, harrows waiting for repair

At the entrance, my bare feet on the dirt floor,
Here, gusts of heat; at my back, white clouds.
I stare and stare.  It seems I was called for this:
To glorify things just because they are.

    --Czeslaw Milosz.  Trans. Milosz & Hass.  *Provinces*.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From elemenope at icubed.com  Wed Jun 30 01:49:56 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:49:56 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] 5. Re: W Responds to Condi (Paul Murphy)
In-Reply-To: <200406301601.i5UG1BXE023661@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200406301601.i5UG1BXE023661@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100307bd0800408750@[204.215.200.12]>

To Whom It May Concern:

My office did not hire this poster to purposely create a message that 
would send those who may still be independently minded fleeing in 
horror from those brainwashed by the Moore-Goebbels 
Chirac-Goldfinger-Soros RadLib-Klintoon Professorial-elite syndicates 
of yacko-wacko canard-mongering confabulators.

I thank you in advance for your sincerely held fair-minded 
reflection, and if a potential WCW patriotic Republican in your inner 
consideration of this ongoing world wide Armageddon, which will one 
day require our full collective willpower to face down the fiends, I 
thank you doubly.

Remember the jets bombing WTC, Pentagon, a Pennsylvania corn field. 
Remember our friends leaping from towering infernos.  Remember the 
knife at the throat.
Johnson family bells toll.  They toll for you.

R i c h a r d  D i l l o n



>
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] W Responds to Condi
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>I can't believe that your still on the go and now your
>a PLC too.  I'm sure you've noticed the direction of
>events.  Your still having lexical difficulties
>although it must be said that your President has many,
>many more.  I thought you should have been thrown off
>Brit Poets for your behaviour but someone says that
>you actually run the thing now!  How much did you pay
>the previous list owner, may I ask that?  Or did you
>give him good head?
>Go and fuck, asshole! 
>
>--- ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
>wrote:
>>  Mr. President:
>>
>>  Iraq is sovreign.  Letter was passed from Bremer at
>  > 10:26 a.m. Iraq time -
>>
>>  Condi
>>
>  > "LET FREEDOM RING!"


-- 


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jun 30 15:35:14 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:35:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Jersey and a tear
Message-ID: <018a01c45ed9$5e69c240$fb607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/30/nyregion/30towns.final.html?hp

OUR TOWNS 
A Jersey City Teardrop for 9/11, or a 10-Story Embarrassment?
The sculpture, now almost completed in Russia, is being donated, but critics say that the city is still being overcharged, and that it has a chance to stave off embarrassment by saying thanks but no thanks.
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