From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 21 16:04:48 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:04:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7 and standards
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com>

Call me a dinosaur, but traditionally (which might be an even worse choice
than my earlier adjective, "respectable"),  most good literary journals do
not first-publish the "serious" poetry of their editors.  Critical essays,
yes, even light verse, perhaps, but not poetry.

Although this policy is not a perfect protection against literary nepotism,
it does help me sleep better at night as an editor.  Unless objectivity and
fairness make no difference to an editor.

"We knowers are not knowers of ourselves."  --Nietzsche, loose quote

Thazall,

CE


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7


> On 9 Jun 2004 at 19:00, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:
> > ... Should poetry be more
> > respectable? Less respectable? Is it just goddam right, baby bear?<
>
> Respectable to what audience? Clearly the C.Parcelli audience's
> notion of "respectable" is very different than the D.Gioia audience's
> notion. One audience's respectable is another audience's outre or
> cliche -- not respectable either way. Isn't there a window of
> respectability for each audience, through which they can see the
> promised land of the right kind of poetry, and around which is just
> wall?
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From eliotpoe at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 21 18:35:50 2004
From: eliotpoe at hotmail.com (C. E. Chaffin)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:35:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint#7 and standards
References: <BAY18-DAV34u9fU8hqd0002d58a@hotmail.com> <40C80D0F.3203.12E6C1@localhost> <BAY18-DAV33mjm2JdoY00002687@hotmail.com> <017301c44f2c$e26260f0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BAY18-DAV560lmdzu5v00005762@hotmail.com>

Dear Bob and Marcus:

Call me doctrinaire.  So I was taught, so I practice.

> Your readers will protect you against  harmful nepotism (and there's
nothing
> inately harmful about nepotism).

Not... did the rich Saudis flee the country because they weren't connected?
Is Oral Roberts Jr. the preacher his father was (although I detest Sr.
more)?  You think Bobby Kennedy pursued Sam Giancana with the same alacrity
he did others?  Come, come, this is absurd except in a private family
business.  A literary magazine, I like to think, is a bit of a public trust.

>It seems absurd that an editor can publish his own opinions but not his own
poetry.

You may think it absurd, I think it a good standard.

> What's "unfair" about an editor's publishing what he likes?  Why assume he
can't be reasonably objective about
> his own work?

Uh, Bob, I still see a few psychiatric patients down here in Mexico.  A
woman comes in with a black eye, weeping.  I ask, "What's wrong?"  She says,
"I think my husband may be cheating on me."   "So it's OK if he hits you,
but you draw the line at cheating?"  "Yeah-- I never thought about that
before."

If people can't be objective about their lives, and poets lead all artists
in serious mental illnesses, and most editors at least think they're poets,
I must say, you have more faith in the self-knowledge of humans than I.

I've had arguments with many (esp. net) editors about this standard, even
written opinions on it.  Many agree but just can't deny their staff.  Others
claim what you claim.  I won't publish editorial staff's poems, period.  I
think net standards should be higher than print standards because the net is
more suspect-- there are so many narcissistic e-zines out there claiming to
be legitimate literary vehicles.

> All this etiquette is bunk, anyway, considering how cliquish most
magazines
> are in choosing work, how editors publish each others' work, etc.

First you say editors can judge their own work, then you say they're
cliquish, or inbred-- may I say nepotistic, if not by blood than reciprocity
(or friendship)?  You are never afraid to speak, Bob, which is a good thing,
but your thoughts often show poor editing for consistency.  And it's not
etiquette; I think it's right.  If submissions are "open" then how can the
unknown (even burstnorm) poet get a fair shake if the editors consider
themselves?

My last say on this subject, I hope.  I will not be moved.  Those who object
the most to this standard are most often those guilty of violating it.  Not
that I have anyone on this list in mind (save the one I pricked with my twit
of a goad).

Later,

CE


From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 11:38:35 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:38:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot!
In-Reply-To: <f160a121040701083626973b3d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200406302033.i5UKXZu2002566@mail3.atl.registeredsite.com> <f160a121040701083140dd0eb2@mail.gmail.com> <f160a121040701083626973b3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f160a121040701083836c49f9e@mail.gmail.com>

*Coyote's Engines* now online.

Hal

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: andrew and jeannie <andrewandjeannie at poeticinhalation.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:33:35 -0400
Subject: july issue of poetic inhalation now online
To: poetics at listserv.buffalo.edu

dear respected friends + colleagues...

the july issue of poetic inhalation is now live for your poetic
reading pleasure...

http://www.poeticinhalation.com

we are pleased to announce that poetic inhalation will be out and
about the northern virginia metro area this summer participating in
various readings...for more info on these live events please visit...

http://www.poeticinhalation.com/eventinformation.html

many thanks...
andrew + jeannie
http://www.poeticinhalation.com

tin lustre mobile volume 4 issue 3 featuring the photography of anna repp

poetry...
joey madia
allison warren
mary kasimor
mark stricker
mairead byrne
kirby olson
anemone achtnich
catherine daly
bob marcacci
hal sirowitz

creative writing...
parallax by catherine kasper
cover art: diana bonebrake

richard denner + david bromige
art: s.mutt

...feature gallery...

ebooks...

coyote's engines by halvard johnson
cover art: roger c miller

fractured rapture by mark s kuhar
cover art: david lloyd

i came dressed as john wilkes booth by wb keckler
cover art: greg ferrand

...reviews...

ric carfagna reviews dadada by catherine daly
joel bettridge reviews days by hank lazer

--
Hal                Art and Plastic Surgery

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jul  1 13:35:00 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:35:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] the poetry scene across the big pond
Message-ID: <103.497c3a2d.2e15a544@aol.com>



To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go 
to http://www.guardian.co.uk

Life on the line.

They're Britain's best new poets, chosen by a panel of judges for the verve 
of their verse. Here Simon Armitage, a former carrier of the flame, hails the 
next generation

Simon Armitage
Saturday June 05 2004   The Guardian


Relax, Trekkies. To you, it might conjure up an image of Captain Jean-Luc 
Picard and crew zipping through space at warp factor 5, but the Next Generation 
I'm referring to are far more terrestrial. They're poets! Twenty of them, to be 
precise. Their mission - to boldly take poetry to far-flung corners of the 
universe or, failing that, to give readings at festivals and events throughout 
the country, advertising the merits of contemporary British poetry and 
hopefully shifting a few units into the bargain. They're all poets who have published 
their first individual collections during the past 10 years; 20 of the best 
new poets working in Britain today. If there can be a poetic equivalent of 
Granta's Best Of Young British Novelists, this is it.?

This mission has a history. A decade ago, 20 other poets, myself included, 
were lined up under the banner of the New Generation. Poetry had gone off in a 
different direction, it was said. We'd had the Movement, we'd had the Group. 
We'd even had the Martians. Now, a new clutch was ready to hatch, but this time 
with the sort of glitz, glamour and hyperbole normally reserved for film 
premieres or party conferences. Poetry, apparently, was about to replace stand-up 
comedy as the new rock'n'roll. Poetry was Britpop. Poetry was New Labour. 
Poetry was outselling hardback fiction. Poetry was sexy, and suddenly there we 
were, the 20 newest, poppiest, wittiest, most saleable and sexiest of them all. 
Like a tankful of lobsters, we writhed together in the front window of the 
supernaturally narrow premises of the Poetry Society in Covent Garden for the 
amusement of the national press. It wasn't easy. The shy and light-sensitive ones 
among us recoiled from the flashbulbs. After fleeting handshakes, the hands of 
bitter rivals and sworn enemies shot back into sleeves like eels into pipes. 
Even the most verbose and garrulous visibly gagged when asked leading questions 
by journalists from newspapers not famous for their interest in literature.

If that snap was the album cover, the inner sleeve would have been a 
photograph taken in an East End warehouse, when for reasons that are now unclear to me 
several of us were asked to dress up like cartoon cat-burglars before being 
assaulted with a bucket of water. I have a firm memory of telling the man 
behind the lens to fuck off, but when delivered from a poet standing in a 
skin-tight polo-neck, Lycra ski-pants and pop socks, I guess the insult doesn't carry 
much weight. I don't have a lot of advice for the poets of the Next Generation 
(they're the competition, for God's sake), but here's one tip: when the 
stuck-for-ideas photographer lifts up the fire extinguisher - duck.?

The New Generation was underpinned by literary and philosophical ideas. 
Allegedly. Under 40 and streetwise, we were all poets who had grown up in a media 
age, conscious of the need to communicate. We'd lived through Thatcher; we 
weren't trying to whip up a revolutionary frenzy, but when big-spending city types 
were swanking about and mouthing off in the wine bars of Docklands, why 
should we be content to write small, dusty and innocuous poems for an audience of 
nobody? Alert to shifts in the language, appalled by elitism, empowered by a 
free education and not at all embarrassed or apologetic about our lack of 
literary pedigree, we were a School. We had things to say, we were good at saying 
them, and we wanted to be heard. That, if I remember rightly, was how the 
argument ran.?

The Next Generation promotion doesn't make such claims about its delegates. 
As I understand things, it's more of a celebration. It's saying there are loads 
of good poets out there, here is a selection, why don't you try their books. 
It will not be without its critics. Detractors have already whispered that 
several of the current crop are, in fact, clones; that the "Pod Poets" of the New 
Generation have spawned their diminutive replicas in the shape of the Next 
Generation. And the Next Gens can expect a rough ride from the postmodernist 
hardliners and avant garde-ists ready to sneer at any poet naive enough to use a 
capital letter at the beginning of a sentence and a full stop at the end. (Tip 
number two: buy a stab-proof vest and make sure it covers your back.)?

True, there's no evidence of a radical shift in style, but there is 
evolution. As performers of their work, for example, this lot are more polished than we 
were. And in print as well, they've taken up the challenge that has faced 
just about every generation of poets since Chaucer - that of keeping poetry 
relevant, appreciated and alive. Within the Next Generation are poets who don't 
scoff at the common reader, who don't ignore or patronise the public, and who are 
able to practise their art without dumbing down or squandering poetry's 
aptitude for tackling complex subjects in challenging ways. In reading the work of 
Paul Farley, Gwyneth Lewis, Maurice Riordan or Jane Draycott, I'm conscious of 
poets who are full of intellectual integrity but don't want to see their art 
form reduced to a private language spoken only by ... well, poets. Some of the 
poets here have learned their trade and often earn their living within the 
creative writing departments of academic institutions, but their ambitions and 
their audience extend beyond those sites. They want to be in the thick of it. 
They want contact with the wider world, the world they observe and so 
brilliantly describe, and I applaud them for it.

As with every list, there will be the usual discussions about who's on it and 
who ain't. And the process by which this list of names was arrived at will be 
questioned - who has the right to make these kind of decisions? There were 
seven judges. Three poets (the chair, Andrew Motion, Bernadine Evaristo and 
myself), one novelist (AL Kennedy, who I suspect also writes poems) and three 
civilians. I sat between the softly spoken and thoughtful Colin Greenwood of 
Radiohead (Colin, where are those bootlegs you were going to send me?) and the 
virtual, telephone-voting James Naughtie of Radio 4's Today programme. But the 
most welcome civilian of all was Marie Robertson, a member of the Poetry Book 
Society and its most valuable customer. A genuine poetry reader who doesn't write 
the stuff - an almost legendary, mythical species, if reports of poetry as a 
participation-only activity are to be believed. Fellow versifiers, if you ever 
want to thank the person who bought your book, I have her address.?

As for the outcome, like all committee work, no one member will ever be 
completely satisfied. Obviously, my taste is flawless ("I've got a layman's ear. If 
it sounds rubbish to me, it's rubbish" - Mark E Smith), but there were at 
least two poets who to my mind should have been on the list, and I couldn't 
crowbar them in no matter how much I levered. In the end, I'm consoled by the idea 
that the list is representative rather than definitive. I hope that the 
several important and well-established writers who didn't make it won't begrudge the 
inclusion of relative newcomers such as Jacob Polley, Leontia Flynn or 
Catherine Smith, who'll benefit enormously from the coverage. I hope I won't need to 
have a police constable stationed outside my door for the foreseeable future 
or to be on the lookout for suspiciously squidgy Jiffy bags coming through the 
letterbox.

All debate took place in camera, but one conversation I don't mind leaking 
concerned the lack of black and Asian poets to choose from. At the beginning of 
the 21st century, how can this be the case? That question has to be put to the 
editors of poetry lists, because I can't believe that such writers aren't 
submitting manuscripts to established poetry publishers. Editors need to 
recalibrate. They need to widen their aesthetic tastes. By the time it gets to our bit 
- the reading and judging of a shedload of books by predominantly white poets 
- it's too late.

I hope the Next Generation are up for it. They'll grumble cynically and get 
all self-conscious. Poets do that. We certainly did. But I suspect there'll be 
a certain amount of private excitement. In my mind's eye, I keep imagining the 
moment when they were given the news, 20 poetic Veruca Salts and Augustus 
Gloops tearing open their Wonka Bars and waving their golden tickets in the air. 
Poets of the Next Generation, don't let us down. The gates of the Chocolate 
Factory are wide open and waiting for you

Poets: the Next Generation

Tobias Hill, born in 1970, has published three books of poetry - Year Of? The 
Dog (1995), Midnight In The City Of Clocks (1996) and Zoo (1998) - as well 
as? a collection of short stories and three novels. Zoo won a Poetry Book 
Society special commendation.

He dislikes the notion of poetry as the new rock 'n' roll, though concedes 
there are parallels. 'I think of poetry as the cutting edge of language, the 
point of keenest change. Very few other art forms change to reflect their time 
and place as poetry does. The poem and the rock song have in common this 
reflectiveness of their time.'

Hill's favourite word is 'dog'. While Latin has its own uses ('"Canine" is a 
beautiful word, fit for a medieval greyhound in a tapestry'), Hill likes 'the 
spareness of the Anglo-Saxon in English '.

Catherine Smith was born in 1962, and describes her work as 'exploring? the 
ordinary in the odd, and the odd in the ordinary'. She has published two books 
of poetry, The New Bride (2001) and The Butcher's Hands (2003), and wrote? her 
first poem aged seven: 'My teacher sent it to Teachers' World magazine. It 
opened with the line "A hundred thousand diamonds ..."'

As well as teaching creative writing at Sussex University and running poetry 
workshops for children, Smith says the best thing? about being a poet is the 
constant stimulation of the imagination. 'It's a great excuse to stare at 
people on buses and in pubs.'

Her favourite poets include WB Yeats, Norman MacCaig, Liz Lochhead, Mandy Coe 
and Carole Satyamurti. Her favourite word is 'hemp'.

Jean Sprackland's first collection, - Tattoos For Mothers Day (1997), was? 
shortlisted for the Forward poetry prize, while her second, Hard Water (2003), 
was shortlisted for the TS Eliot prize and the Whitbread book awards 2004.

When asked what she does, Sprackland is rarely forthcoming: 'I try to pretend 
I didn't hear the question, or I'm so evasive people probably think I'm a tax 
inspector or a traffic warden. For a long time, many of my friends didn't 
know? my secret, but the Whitbread shortlisting got into the papers and my cover 
was blown. I met one of my neighbours coming out of Kwik Save, and she said, 
'Ooh, you'll be too posh to talk to us now.'

Sprackland was born in 1962 and lives on Merseyside.

Amanda Dalton was 10 when she wrote and illustrated her first collection? in 
an exercise book. She's still got it somewhere. 'I also wrote song lyrics and 
composed the music to go with them. My masterworks of the time were Wake Up 
Wake Up, That House Is Flooded (quite a dramatic piece) and The Royal Show, a 
touching? poem about cattle, horses and sheep, and the politics of keeping and 
displaying farm animals.'

These days, Dalton,who was born in 1957, combines writing poetry - How To 
Disappear (1999) was her first collection - with her work at the Royal Exchange 
Theatre, Manchester, where she is education director. 'The idea of poetry seems 
to impress, but also slightly scares people. I don't think poets have a duty 
to write "easy" poems, but I do think poems are about communicating, so it's a 
shame? that so many people seem scared of poetry and that that translates 
into not reading or buying it.'

Matthew Francis, who was born in 1956, says it's taken him a long time to? be 
up-and-coming. 'I'm not one of the more fashionable names on the list, and 
can think of several more successful poets who've been left out. That's for the? 
pundits to argue about. For me, this is a fantastic opportunity. It'll be a? 
chance to reach a new audience.'

Francis, whose publications include Blizzard (1996) and Dragons (2001), often 
gets out of bed in the middle of the night to write. He says the best thing 
about being a poet is 'the feeling that you can write as much or as little as 
you like, that your only responsibility is to what? you want to say'. Among his 
favourite words are 'curdle' and anything with a double z in it.

Pascale Petit, who was a sculptor before becoming a poet, describes her work 
as 'fierce, highly charged, intense, rich, magical and exotic'. Her most 
recent book, The Zoo Father (2001), 'uses Amazonian imagery to transmute an abusive 
father into art'.?

Born in Paris in 1953, she wrote her first poem at 15 and says the best thing 
about being a poet is 'being able to remake the world'. As to whether, as 
Thomas Babington MacAulay argued, 'Perhaps no person can be a poet or can even 
enjoy poetry without a certain unsoundness of mind', Petit says, 'It feels 
healthy, when I'm writing, to do some Rimbaudesque disordering of the senses, to 
get into a trance. That's not mad, that's being super-sane in an insane world. 
Being? creative is tapping into the life-force.'?

Petit thinks British poetry is 'too polite and genteel' and considers Galway 
Kinnell, Sharon Olds, CK Williams and Ciaran Carson among her favourite 
contemporary poets.

Leontia Flynn is 'terrified' at being tipped as one of the Next? Generation. 
'Then, I forget for a little ... I'm not sure what I'll do now, though I never 
really am.' Flynn wrote her first poem when she was eight or nine ('My mother 
still has it, I think') and has just got her PhD ('Literally, more or less - 
I've had it a week'). It was on the strength of These Days, her only 
publication, that she was included in the 20.

Born in 1974, Flynn says her favourite poets include Louis MacNeice, 
Elizabeth Bishop, Medbh McGuckian and Philip Larkin ('Sorry, can't help it, and 
Idotry'). 'More usually, there'll be a particular poem that I just read over and 
over again. Shantung, by Denise Riley, is one, but there are too many to 
mention.'

Flynn suspects that poets are rather less rock 'n' roll than people give them 
credit for. 'I'm pretty rock 'n' roll though.'

Sophie Hannah, who was born in 1971, says the best thing about being a poet 
is 'being able to get a relatively civilised revenge on anyone who treats you 
really nastily - and plenty of people do! - by writing something cutting about 
them that you will still like long after you've forgotten about the horrible 
person'. She has published four collections, the latest being First Of The Last 
Chances (2003), and three novels. Hannah lives in West Yorkshire and says 
poets are like everyone else: 'Some are into cornflakes, others are into 
cocaine.' She includes Wendy Cope, George Herbert, Edna St Vincent Millay and Robert 
Frost among her favourites.

Gwyneth Lewis says 'a certain amount of neuroses and being offbeat seems to 
be part of the job description for being a poet. I've written a whole book 
about depression, from which I suffer, though I'm not a down sort of person. A 
major lesson I learned was that alcohol doesn't help you write; if it did, half 
the drunks in the world would be great poets, and they're not. Being Welsh, the 
figure of Dylan Thomas looms large, but he didn't write when he was drunk.? 
Poets, I'd say, have much more of an affinity for the gutter than for the 
drawing room. These days, though, I stick to tea.'

Lewis was born in 1959 and her work includes Keeping Mum (2003), Zero Gravity 
(1998) and Parables & Faxes (1995). She writes in English and in Welsh.

Owen Sheers chooses not to describe his work in a sentence or two. 'Trust the 
poem, not the poet,' he maintains. Born in Fiji in 1974, he was brought up 
in? Abergavenny, South Wales, and has been an assistant producer on The Big 
Breakfast and a presenter for BBC Wales. The Blue Book (2000), Sheers' first 
collection of? poetry, was shortlisted for the Welsh Book of the Year and is now in 
its fifth imprint. When people ask him what he does, he usually says he's a 
writer. 'I only feel like a poet when I'm actually writing a poem.' Sheers 
includes 'all three Thomases - Edward, Dylan and RS' - among his favourite poets. 
He also knows a rhyme for 'orange': 'Blorenge: the name of a hill that 
overlooks Abergavenny.'

Patience Agbabi describes her work as 'performance meets form: page meets 
stage. It's about transformation, the body, love, sex and death.' She has 
published two collections, RAW (1995) and Transformatrix (2000), and a third is in 
the offing. She has performed her work all over the world, on Channel 4, and in 
a north London tattoo and piercing studio, where she was doing a poetry? 
placement. Agbabi says poets are more rock 'n' roll than they're given credit for: 
'Add sex and drugs and you get a clearer picture. The public may not be 
slashing cinema seats at their favourite poetry film, but [playwright] Joelle Taylor 
has one of my poems tattooed on her arm.'?

Born in 1965, her favourite poets include Chaucer, Jackie Kay and Carol Ann 
Duffy. Her favourite word is 'onomatopoeia': 'Great aloud, hell to spell.'

Paul Farley was? born in Liverpool in 1965 and studied painting at the 
Chelsea School of Art. He has published two highly acclaimed collections of poetry - 
The Boy From The Chemist Is Here To See You (1998) won a Forward prize and 
the Somerset Maugham award; The Ice Age received the 2002 Whitbread poetry 
award. A former Sunday Times young writer of the year, he works as a teacher and 
broadcaster. He lives in Lancashire.

Nick Drake, born in 1961, says the worst thing about being a poet is? 'doing 
readings at posh home counties schools to 11-year-olds slowly chewing gum? 
with that "Oh yeah?" look on their faces'. His own personal poetic nadir was 
being in such a situation and, 'as I droned my way down and down into a hole in 
the ground, my mobile went off in the middle of it. And I answered it.'

Drake's first collection, The Man In The White Suit, won plaudits and 
accolades, and he is currently working on a new collection of poems provisionally 
titled On Not Being Nick Drake. 'The number of times I've been mistaken for the 
wonderful, late lamented singer-songwriter ...'

Robert Graves is, he thinks, the most underestimated poet of the 20th 
century; his favourite contemporary poet is Dave Stagg. 'Unaccountably, he is so far 
largely unpublished, which is a terrible injustice, because his work is so? 
exceptional.'

Once, Drake went to Elton John's house in Nice for dinner.

Jacob Polley was born in Carlisle in 1975, where he still lives and works. 
His first book, The Brink (2003), was shortlisted for the TS Eliot prize and he 
won the Arts Council of England/BBC Radio 4 First Lines competition. He has 
also co-written a short film, Flickerman And The Ivory-Skinned Woman, the story 
of an agoraphobic, an unusual bargain, an exotic plant and Super-8 film. 
Polley says? he's very keen that people read his poems: 'They're not that long ...'

Henry Shukman hopes his work will be enjoyed 'by readers who like Hardy? and 
Frost more than Eliot and Pound; Frank O'Hara more than John Ashbery.' Born in 
1962, he wrote his first poem when he was 13,'while watching night fall from 
my bedroom window when I should have been doing my homework'. His publications 
include In Doctor No's Garden (2002), Darien Dogs (2004), a short novel and 
four stories, and he has lived in America, Colombia and Trinidad. When he tells 
people what he does, 'Generally, a cloud passes over the face. Just 
occasionally there's a twinkle in the eye.'

As for being tipped as one of the Next Big Things, Shukman is philosophical: 
'A sprig of bay every 50 years, as Dryden said - let's hope this net did catch 
the big one.' He lives in Oxford.

Jane Draycott says that, as a writer you live with a kind of? supersensitive 
microphone running in your inner ear all the time.' The more you listen to the 
music of phrases in your head, the more you hear it everywhere around you - 
not just the spoken word, but in everything, even so-called silence.? The world 
is simply a more musical place to me since I started writing. The other 
aspect I relish is that with no cash in your bank account, you can sit at the 
kitchen table and travel. As Michael Donaghy said so memorably, "I'm in it for the 
discovery".'

Draycott's publications include No Theatre (1996), Prince Rupert's Drop 
(1999) and The Night Tree (2004). Born in 1954, she teaches on the creative 
writing? programmes at the universities of Oxford and Reading.

Alice Oswald's first collection, The Thing In The Gap-Stone Stile? (1996), 
was met with great acclaim; her second, Dart (2002), won the TS Eliot prize for 
poetry. Inspired by the River Dart in Devon, and written after Oswald spent 
three years recording conversations with people who live and work on the river, 
it was? described as having 'orchestral scope' and being 'so sensual, it makes 
you swoon'. Michael Longley, one of the prize's judges, said that, 'Dart is a 
brilliant hybrid with a palpable coherence and individual signature. Its 
intermingling of poetry and prose feels natural, rhythmically inevitable. &
#91;Oswald &#93; brings in many voices and yet maintains a personal melody. This is a 
capacious, ambitious piece of work.'

Jeanette Winterson describes Oswald as 'making a new kind of poetry ... a 
Nature poet, a spiritual poet, with the wildness of Hughes or John Clare, or 
Traherne'. Oswald lives in Devon.

Deryn Rees-Jones, who was born in Liverpool in 1968, read English in? Wales 
before doing doctoral research on women poets at Birkbeck College, London.? Her 
work, including her first collection, The Memory Tray (1994), and Signs 
Around A Dead Body (1998), has been garlanded with awards and accolades. Quiver, a 
murder mystery in verse, has just been published. 'I'm interested in gender, 
memory and identity - how we "become". These themes run through all my books.' 
Rees-Jones, who wrote her first poem at 18 about the death of her grandmother, 
is the author of a monograph on the work of Carol Ann Duffy (1999) and 
teaches at the University of Liverpool. She is co-editor of Contemporary Women's 
Poetry (2000).

Maurice Riordan was born in Lisgoold, County Cork, Ireland, in 1953. Educated 
at University College Cork, where he later taught, and at McMaster? 
University in Canada, he now lives and works in London. Riordan has published two books 
of poems, A Word From The Loki (1995) and Floods (2000), and co-edited an? 
anthology of poems about science, A Quark For Mister Mark (2001). A Word From 
The Loki was nominated for the TS Eliot prize, while Floods was shortlisted for 
the Whitbread prize.

Robin Robertson's work has been described as 'invigorating and changing the 
nature of the English-language poem with compaction, linguistic play and? 
etymological precision'. From the north-east of Scotland, his first volume of 
poetry, A Painted Field (1997), won the Forward prize for best first collection, 
the Aldeburgh Poetry Festival prize and the Saltire Society Scottish first book? 
of the year award. Slow Air (2002) was greeted with similar acclaim. This 
year, he was awarded the EM Forster award from the American Academy of Arts and? 
Letters. Formerly James Kelman's editor, as deputy publishing director of 
Cape, Robertson, now 49, was also responsible for the breakthrough of many of the 
'newwave' of Scottish writers who assailed the literary scene in the 1990s - 
the likes of Irvine Welsh and Alan Warner.?


Selected Next Generation poets will read tomorrow at 11.30am at the Guardian 
Hay Festival.

Visit poetrybooks.co.uk for more about the Next Generation poets.

Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thom tammaro
moorhead, mn 56560
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Jul  1 14:23:26 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:23:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] PFIO: William H. Gass
Message-ID: <40E4569E.F5218887@earthlink.net>

Poems Found in "Order of Insects," by William H. Gass

*Periplaneta orientalis*

Tipped, their legs have fallen shut,
and the more I look at them
the less I believe my eyes.

Corruption, in these bugs, is splendid.
I've a collection now
I keep in typewriter-ribbon tins,
and though, in time, their bodies dry
and the interior flesh decays, 
their features hold, as I suppose
they held in life, an Egyptian determination,
for their protective plates are strong
and death must break bones to get in.

Now that the heavy soul is gone,
the case is light.

*

Two prongs extend like daggers from the rear.
I suppose we'll never know their function.
That kind of knowledge doesn't take our interest.

At first, we had to screw our eyes down,
and as we consider it now, the whole change,
the recent alteration in our lives, was the consequence
of finally coming near to something. It was 
a self-mortifying act, we recall, a penalty 
we laid upon ourselves for evil-tempered words
we'd shouted at our children in the middle of the night.

We felt instinctively the insects were infectuous
and their own disease, so when we knelt we held handkerchiefs 
over the lower halves of our faces . . . saw only horror
. . . turned, sick, masking our eyes . . . yet the worst
of angers held us through the day: vague, guilty, and ashamed.



Originals, from the story, "Order of Insects," by William H. Gass:

Tipped, their legs have fallen shut, and the more I look at them the
less I believe my eyes. Corruption, in these bugs, is splendid. I've a
collection now I keep in typewriter-ribbon tins, and though, in time,
their bodies dry and the interior flesh decays, their features hold, as
I suppose they held in life, an Egyptian determination, for their
protective plates are strong and death must break bones to get in. Now
that the heavy soul is gone, the case is light.

*

Two prongs extend like daggers from the rear. I suppose I'll never know
their function. That kind of knowledge doesn't take my interest. At
first, I had to screw my eyes down, and as I consider it now, the whole
change, the recent alteration in my life, was the consequence of finally
coming near to something.  It was a self-mortifying act, I recall, a
penalty I laid upon myself for evil-tempered words I'd shouted at my
children in the middle of the night. I felt instinctively the insects
were infectuous and their own disease, so when I knelt I held a
handkerchief over the lower half of my face . . . saw only horror . . .
turned, sick, masking our eyes . . . yet the worst of angers held me
through the day: vague, guilty, and ashamed.

~

There's "ultra-talk," but I call this meta-talk.  Whattayasay?

- Jim


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul  1 20:35:45 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:35:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carl Rakosi
Message-ID: <1d1.24e32d62.2e1607e1@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/1/2004 6:30:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
materert at MISSOURI.EDU writes:

> Subj: Carl Rakosi 
>  Date: 7/1/2004 6:30:32 PM Eastern Standard Time
>  From: materert at MISSOURI.EDU
>  Reply-to: MODERN_POETS-L at PO.MISSOURI.EDU
>  To: MODERN_POETS-L at PO.MISSOURI.EDU
>  Sent from the Internet 
> 
> 
> 
> From Al Filreis
> 
> Recordings of the late Carl Rakosi reading ten of his poems are available
> in downloadable MP3 format:
> 
>     http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/rakosi.html
> 
> The poems are:
> 
>     1. Love America, Uncle Sam Needs You
>     2. Go Preach Christ
>     3. The Country Singer
>     4. Captain Paterson
>     5. from Three Cheers for the Star Spangled Banner: A Silent Movie
>     6. How to be with a Rock
>     7. Oh Sestina
>     8. from The Old Poet's Tale
>     9. To a Collie Pup
>     10. In What Sense I am I
> 
> These recordings of Carl Rakosi's poems have been made available as part of
> the PENNsound project. For more about PENNsound, see:
> 
>     http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  2 08:53:25 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 05:53:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] PFIWBO is . . .
Message-ID: <40E55AC6.557D3F41@earthlink.net>

Poems Found In Works By Others.  I screwed up the acronym first time
around.  Anyway, here's another from Gass'"Order of Insects."  I'm not
100% sure why I'm doing this, but I sense an allegory for our times in these.

- Jim

*

My hobby's given me a pair of dreadful eyes,
and sometimes I fancy they start from my head.
Yet I see, perhaps, no differently than Galileo saw
when he found in the pendulum its fixed intent.
Nonetheless my body resists such knowledge.
It wearies of its edge.  And I cannot forget,
even while I watch moonvine blossoms open,
the simple principle of the bug.  It is a squat 
black  cockroach after all, such a bug 
as frightens housewives, and it's only come 
to chew on rented wool and find its death
absurdly in the teeth of the renter's cat.


the original:

My hobby's given me a pair of dreadful eyes, and sometimes I fancy they
start from my head. Yet I see, perhaps, no differently than Galileo saw
when he found in the pendulum its fixed intent. Nonetheless my body
resists such knowledge.  It wearies of its edge.  And I cannot forget,
even while I watch our moonvine blossoms opening, the simple principle
of the bug.  It is a squat black cockroach after all, such a bug as
frightens housewives, and it's only come to chew on rented wool and find
its death absurdly in the teeth of the renter's cat.


From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jul  2 12:03:41 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:03:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carl Rakosi
In-Reply-To: <1d1.24e32d62.2e1607e1@aol.com>
References: <1d1.24e32d62.2e1607e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40E5875D.5030007@ix.netcom.com>

Obit.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1248635,00.html


>


From cc at opus0.com  Fri Jul  2 15:01:11 2004
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:01:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carl Rakosi (JforJames@aol.com)
In-Reply-To: <200407021600.i62G03XE013138@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHAEMDCOAA.cc@opus0.com>

Thanks for the Rakosi.  

> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:35:45 EDT
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Carl Rakosi

> > From Al Filreis
> > 
> > Recordings of the late Carl Rakosi reading ten of his poems are 
> available
> > in downloadable MP3 format:
> > 
> >     http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/rakosi.html
> > 
> > The poems are:
> > 
> >     1. Love America, Uncle Sam Needs You
> >     2. Go Preach Christ
> >     3. The Country Singer
> >     4. Captain Paterson
> >     5. from Three Cheers for the Star Spangled Banner: A Silent Movie
> >     6. How to be with a Rock
> >     7. Oh Sestina
> >     8. from The Old Poet's Tale
> >     9. To a Collie Pup
> >     10. In What Sense I am I
> > 
> > These recordings of Carl Rakosi's poems have been made 
> available as part of
> > the PENNsound project. For more about PENNsound, see:
> > 
> >     http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/




From Thom424 at aol.com  Fri Jul  2 20:41:51 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:41:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Robo-Poetics: Joan Houlihan Checks in Again.
Message-ID: <12e.45818a55.2e175acf@aol.com>


"I, Reader: the Rise of Robo-Poetics: How Contemporary American Poets Are 
Denaturing the Poem" 

   Part VIII   by JOAN HOULIHAN


    http://webdelsol.com/f-bostoncomment.htm
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul  3 11:06:53 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:06:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Declaration of Independence
Message-ID: <006401c4610f$60266830$a6607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

The declaration of Independence read by John F. Kennedy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/02/national/02KENNEDY-DECLARATION.html

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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul  3 12:26:11 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:26:11 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nthposition
Message-ID: <00f201c4611a$746d7170$a6607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi folks,

among others much less famous than me, I am featured on Nthposition:

http://www.nthposition.com/arobotthusspokethe.php

Here is the message Todd Swift is sending out, take care, 

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

The aim of the poet is to awaken emotions in the soul, not to gather admirers.
Stalker, Andrei Tarkovsky

Nthposition Poetry Bulletin, July 2004

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

July issue now online
15 poets featured at http://www.nthposition.com/poetry.php
including: Philip Fried, Daphne Gottlieb, Srikanth Reddy, Jen Hadfield, George Ellenbogen, Maria Nazos, Brentley Frazer and Antony Dunn.

*

August issue to feature new work by, among others: John Welch, David Prater and Jill Beauchesne.

*

Now reading for September issue.

*

Please forward to interested parties.  To be removed from this list, please reply with "unsubscribe" in subject line.
Please excuse cross-posting.

_ _

Todd Swift,poetry editor - http://www.nthposition.com
readers' poll winner in the 2004 Utne Independent Press Awards over 350,000 visitors in the last year


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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul  4 04:49:29 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:49:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Zebra Poetry Film Award
Message-ID: <010101c461a3$d18c1a80$e5737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

The 2. ZEBRA Poetry Film Award:

1- _Nach graun Tagen_ by Ralf Schmerberg (Germany); the movie is based on a story by Ingeborg Bachmann

2- _The old fools_ by Ruth Lingford (England)
3- _Love is the law_ by Eivind Tolas.

 
Das ZEBRA bekommt Zucker:

"Nach grauen Tagen" von Ralf Schmerberg gewann den 2. ZEBRA Poetry Film Award!

 

Die Gewinner des 2. ZEBRA Poetry Film Award stehen fest: der erste Preis ging an "Nach grauen Tagen"  von Ralf Schmerberg aus Deutschland. Der Film basiert auf einem Gedicht von Ingeborg Bachmann und "beschreibt den poetischen Ausbruch aus einer Atmosph?re der absoluten sozialen Gewalt", so die Jury. Den zweiten Preis gewann "The old fools" von Ruth Lingford aus Gro?britannien, der dritte Preis ging an "Love is the law" von Eivind Tolas

(Norwegen). 

 

Der Preis ist mit insgesamt 10.000 EUR dotiert und wird von der Deutschen Gesellschaft f?r Technische Zusammenarbeit (GTZ) GmbH gestiftet. Am 3. Juli 2004 wurde er von Franziska Donner, Leiterin des GTZ-B?ros Berlin, ?berreicht. "Die Bandbreite und Internationalit?t der Filme war f?r uns schlicht beeindruckend und ich bin ?berzeugt, dass die Filme auch ein wenig zu einem besseren Verst?ndnis zwischen Angeh?rigen verschiedener Kulturen und Lebenswelten beitragen konnten," erkl?rt Franziska Donner. 

 

Den Preis der von Radio Eins ausgew?hlten Publikumsjury gewann der Film "I like to think (right now, please!)" von Delphine Hallis aus Frankreich.  Der Gewinner erh?lt 2 Tage Atelier mit Cutter und Tontechniker bei cine impuls oder 1000 EUR f?r eine Film-Postproduktion.

 

Lobende Erw?hnungen erhielten au?erdem die Filme "We hear them cutting" von Guilherme Marcondes (Brasilien) und "La machine Molle" von Laura Gozlan (Frankreich).  

 

 

Der ZEBRA Poetry Film Award ist ein Projekt der literaturWERKstatt berlin in Kooperation mit der Deutschen Gesellschaft f?r Technische Zusammenarbeit (GTZ) GmbH und interfilm berlin sowie mit freundlicher Unterst?tzung durch das Goethe-Insitut.

 

Gef?rdert durch den Hauptstadtkulturfonds

 

 

 



F?r R?ckfragen und Informationen:

Jutta B?chter/ Boris Nitzsche

Presse/?A,  

literaturWERKstatt berlin, 

Tel.: 030 -48 52 45 25 

 

www.literaturwerkstatt.org
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul  4 04:53:50 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:53:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Zebra Poetry Film Award
References: <010101c461a3$d18c1a80$e5737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <012b01c461a4$6e1cab80$e5737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Sorry, on a poem by Ingeborg Bachmann.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: New Poetry 
  Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 10:49 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] the Zebra Poetry Film Award


  The 2. ZEBRA Poetry Film Award:

  1- _Nach graun Tagen_ by Ralf Schmerberg (Germany); the movie is based on a story by Ingeborg Bachmann

  2- _The old fools_ by Ruth Lingford (England)
  3- _Love is the law_ by Eivind Tolas.

    
  Das ZEBRA bekommt Zucker:

  "Nach grauen Tagen" von Ralf Schmerberg gewann den 2. ZEBRA Poetry Film Award!

   

  Die Gewinner des 2. ZEBRA Poetry Film Award stehen fest: der erste Preis ging an "Nach grauen Tagen"  von Ralf Schmerberg aus Deutschland. Der Film basiert auf einem Gedicht von Ingeborg Bachmann und "beschreibt den poetischen Ausbruch aus einer Atmosph?re der absoluten sozialen Gewalt", so die Jury. Den zweiten Preis gewann "The old fools" von Ruth Lingford aus Gro?britannien, der dritte Preis ging an "Love is the law" von Eivind Tolas

  (Norwegen). 

   

  Der Preis ist mit insgesamt 10.000 EUR dotiert und wird von der Deutschen Gesellschaft f?r Technische Zusammenarbeit (GTZ) GmbH gestiftet. Am 3. Juli 2004 wurde er von Franziska Donner, Leiterin des GTZ-B?ros Berlin, ?berreicht. "Die Bandbreite und Internationalit?t der Filme war f?r uns schlicht beeindruckend und ich bin ?berzeugt, dass die Filme auch ein wenig zu einem besseren Verst?ndnis zwischen Angeh?rigen verschiedener Kulturen und Lebenswelten beitragen konnten," erkl?rt Franziska Donner. 

   

  Den Preis der von Radio Eins ausgew?hlten Publikumsjury gewann der Film "I like to think (right now, please!)" von Delphine Hallis aus Frankreich.  Der Gewinner erh?lt 2 Tage Atelier mit Cutter und Tontechniker bei cine impuls oder 1000 EUR f?r eine Film-Postproduktion.

   

  Lobende Erw?hnungen erhielten au?erdem die Filme "We hear them cutting" von Guilherme Marcondes (Brasilien) und "La machine Molle" von Laura Gozlan (Frankreich).  

   

   

  Der ZEBRA Poetry Film Award ist ein Projekt der literaturWERKstatt berlin in Kooperation mit der Deutschen Gesellschaft f?r Technische Zusammenarbeit (GTZ) GmbH und interfilm berlin sowie mit freundlicher Unterst?tzung durch das Goethe-Insitut.

   

  Gef?rdert durch den Hauptstadtkulturfonds

   

   

   



  F?r R?ckfragen und Informationen:

  Jutta B?chter/ Boris Nitzsche

  Presse/?A,  

  literaturWERKstatt berlin, 

  Tel.: 030 -48 52 45 25 

   

  www.literaturwerkstatt.org
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  4 16:23:35 2004
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:23:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Reading Series (Williamsburg, Brooklyn)
In-Reply-To: <BD047FD1.A3DF%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <JMENIAHNFGOCLHLNNIPHOEFJCEAA.amyhappens@yahoo.com>

(POETS WHO DON'T KNOW IT)

JORDAN DAVIS
(Million Poems Journal)

AMY KING
(Antidotes for an Alibi)

GEOFFREY CRUICKSHANK-HAGENBUCKLE
(Fence, Verse, Purple)

Announcing: POETS WHO DON'T KNOW IT: a new reading series for poets who
don't already know each other!  Jordan Davis (Million Poems Journal), Amy
King (Antidotes For An Alibi), Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle (Fence,
Boston Review, Purple).

Thurs. July 8 at 8 PM (sharp) at Clovis Press, on the corner of Bedford Ave.
at North 4th St., Williamsburg,Brooklyn. (718 302 3751) 3 blocks straight
south from the Bedford stop on the L.  Free.  Complimentary wine will be
served.









From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jul  5 12:50:53 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:50:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c462b0$3fb46690$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Evocation of the lost world:
the Berkeley poetry scene
at the end of World War I

Fahrenheit 9/11:
Fair & ultimately balanced

Judson Crews:
A "New American" poet
of the Southwest

More poets from Slack Buddha:
Geraldine Monk, Michael Basinski
& Daniel Bouchard

Stephen T. Vessel's 
ZIP Code Poems - 
a poetic form for 93109
(Slack Buddha, part II)

Some Poets of Slack Buddha Press:
on Keith Tuma, Alan Halsey & 
K. Lorraine Graham

Forthcoming Ron Silliman readings & talks
(Boston, Seattle, NY, Lawrence, SF, Philly & DC)

Questions for Here Comes Everybody:
What is the relation between the text & the body?

Questions for Here Comes Everybody:
How would you explain poetry to a seven year old?

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul  7 06:35:09 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:35:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
Message-ID: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I saw yesterday that almost all the photographs on the Poets' Corner had disappeared - but Vanni, our webmaster has heroically (- well for me) brought everything back again,

should you notice anything strange, please let me know
thank you

(Where is everybody on this List?)

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Is all that what we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?
Edgar Allan Poe
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Wed Jul  7 16:11:22 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:11:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
In-Reply-To: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com>
References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040707150958.S87676@kpaul.spinweb.net>

I'm self-publishing my first (printed) collection of poetry.

http://www.mallasch.com/mug/shop.php?item=muground,muground2,muground3,mug4.9971661

Spread the word ;)

thanks,
kpaul
mallasch.com



From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 09:30:50 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I'm still in San Miguel, where it's a nice, cool morning.
Yesterday, we watched *The Girl with a Pearl Earring* (yes,
the world must have needed another bad movie about painters)
in the old Teatro Santa Ana as a tremendous rainstorm outside
covered most of the first hour's dialogue and rain dripped down
from the rafters sending some of us scurrying for other seats.

Hasta luego--

Hal


----- Original Message -----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:35:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
To: New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>



I saw yesterday that almost all the photographs on the Poets' Corner
had disappeared - but Vanni, our webmaster has heroically (- well for
me) brought everything back again,
 
should you notice anything strange, please let me know
thank you
 
(Where is everybody on this List?)
 
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content
 
Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
 
Is all that what we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?
Edgar Allan Poe



-- 
Hal                Art and Plastic Surgery

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Jul  8 13:11:04 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:11:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00d701c4650e$9064a900$6fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

(Where is everybody on this List?)

I was wondering, too.  The Fourth of July holiday weekend?  Or is it because I haven't been terrorizing anyone lately?  Or terrorized too many during my last visits?

--Bob G.
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Thu Jul  8 14:48:35 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:48:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael Moore's 9/11
Message-ID: <005d01c4651c$2d113a90$29def63f@Helen>

Did we close down for the summer?

Has Gruman taken a world cruise? 

Just saw Farenheit 9/11 last night and wanted to talke about it. 

Did you think it was over the top? and love it anyway?
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 11 14:58:40 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:58:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael Moore's 9/11
References: <005d01c4651c$2d113a90$29def63f@Helen>
Message-ID: <00d601c46779$156d39c0$ea1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Hi Helen, and Hal, and Bob Gruman,

so happy to see someOne!
Haven't watched Farenheit 9/11 yet, so please prepare me.

I have a new signature:

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

the
crime - crushing
Criminologist 
Sherlock Jr. / Buster Keaton

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Helen Ruggieri 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:48 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael Moore's 9/11


  Did we close down for the summer?

  Has Gruman taken a world cruise? 

  Just saw Farenheit 9/11 last night and wanted to talke about it. 

  Did you think it was over the top? and love it anyway?
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Jul 11 15:06:03 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:06:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004701c4677a$1da489d0$010c9942@Helen>

I'm glad someone on this list is still alive - I was worried 
that I'd been blackballed.
h

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at gmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] glitches


> Well, I'm still in San Miguel, where it's a nice, cool morning.
> Yesterday, we watched *The Girl with a Pearl Earring* (yes,
> the world must have needed another bad movie about painters)
> in the old Teatro Santa Ana as a tremendous rainstorm outside
> covered most of the first hour's dialogue and rain dripped down
> from the rafters sending some of us scurrying for other seats.
> 
> Hasta luego--
> 
> Hal
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:35:09 +0200
> Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
> To: New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> 
> 
> 
> I saw yesterday that almost all the photographs on the Poets' Corner
> had disappeared - but Vanni, our webmaster has heroically (- well for
> me) brought everything back again,
>  
> should you notice anything strange, please let me know
> thank you
>  
> (Where is everybody on this List?)
>  
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content
>  
> Anny Ballardini
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>  
> Is all that what we see or seem
> but a dream within a dream?
> Edgar Allan Poe
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Hal                Art and Plastic Surgery
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Jul  9 08:58:36 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:58:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: A Hercules in Baghdad
Message-ID: <40EE5E3C.31866.519060@localhost>

Found Poem: A Hercules in Bagdad

At six thousand feet over central Iraq, 
two hundred eighty knots 
and dropping faster than Paris Hilton's panties --
it's a typical September evening above Baghdad:
hotter than a rectal thermometer, 
and I'm sweating like a priest at a Cub Scout meeting. 

The moonless night is blacker than a Peter Nichols play,
but I'm sporting the latest in night-combat technology: 
night vision hand-me-downs 
thrown out by a fighter-boy pal.
The NVGs illuminate the lightless 
Baghdad International Airport 
like the Vegas Strip during a Tyson fight. 
These goggles are the cat's ass. But I digress. 

The approach is the "Random Shallow",
or the "Hal Johnson Maneuver"
if poets flew whisper pigs.
The goal is to get in the landing zone in an unpredictable 
manner by using what the Army claims 
is the secured perimeter of the airfield 
to avoid enemy shoulder-fired missiles and small arms fire
from outside that perimeter. 
Even though I'm about to bet all my memorized sonnets
on theory and practice each as full of holes
as Scarface falling off a balcony,
the approach is fun as hell --
and that's the real reason we fly it. 

Visual on the runway three miles out, 
drop down to one thousand feet 
maintain two hundred and eighty knots; 
Now the fun starts: it's pilot appreciation time.
Down to six hundred feet then smoothly, 
but very deliberately, bank strongly left, 
yanking the Herk ninety degrees 
from the runway heading. 
Rolling out of the turn I reverse bank to the right 
a full two seventy, chop the power back during the turn, 
and pull back on the yoke until my ass starts to sag, 
bleeding off energy to configure the pig for landing
as we come around the two seventy
to roll out suddenly re-aligned with the runway. 

"Flaps Fifty! 
Landing Gear Down! 
Before Landing Checklist!" 
I look over at the new copilot 
and he's shaking like a cat shitting on a sheet of ice. 
Further back, even through the NVGs, I can see 
the wet spot spreading around the navigator's crotch. 
Finally, I look at my flight engineer -- 
but his eyebrows merely rise in unison, 
and a grin forms on his face. 
I can tell he's thinking the same thing I am:
"Where do we find such fine young men?" 

"Flaps One Hundred!" 
I bark at the shaking cat. 
Now it's all aimpoint and airspeed. 
Aviation 101, except there's no lights, 
I'm on NVGs, it's Baghdad, and tracers 
are starting to crisscross the black sky. 

I grease the Goodyear's on brick-one of runway 33 left, 
bring the throttles to ground idle and then
force the props to full reverse pitch. 
The sound of freedom is my four 
Hamilton Standard propellers chewing 
through the thick, putrid Baghdad air. 
The one hundred thirty thousand pound whisper pig 
lumbers to a lurching stop in less than two thousand feet. 
Let's see a Viper do that! 

We taxi to a jostle of Army grunts 
waiting to unload 
their beans and bullets and billets doux.

Walking down the crew entry steps I thank God 
I'm not in the Army.

Time to get a drink, clean up the copilot and navigator,
look for war booty, and of course, 
urinate in Saddam's spider hole.

I love this job!





From Faustina1 at aol.com  Sun Jul 11 15:29:33 2004
From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:29:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael Moore's 9/11
Message-ID: <3DA5F71A.10E16F33.023799CC@aol.com>

I thought it was over the top, and loved it anyway.  I was not crazy about the portrayals of the other cultures that were part of the "Coalition of the Willing," however.  Janet

>Just saw Farenheit 9/11 last night and wanted to talke about it.
>
>Did you think it was over the top? and love it anyway?
>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul 11 15:53:03 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:53:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com> <004701c4677a$1da489d0$010c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <017401c46780$afc6c250$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I tried my best, Helen, but the final vote was 17 to 1 to not blackball you.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul 11 15:55:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:55:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <20040707150958.S87676@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <019d01c46781$0b7251a0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Hey, Karl, if you're going to be shameless, tell people how much you're
charging for it and how they can get it!  Chee.

--Bob G., veteran self-publisher




From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul 11 16:18:39 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:18:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <20040707150958.S87676@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <001201c46784$4408d4f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

kpaul -- good luck.

Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kpaul mallasch" <kpaul at mallasch.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:11 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion


> I'm self-publishing my first (printed) collection of poetry.
>
>
http://www.mallasch.com/mug/shop.php?item=muground,muground2,muground3,mug4.9971661
>
> Spread the word ;)
>
> thanks,
> kpaul
> mallasch.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul 11 16:21:07 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:21:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com> <004701c4677a$1da489d0$010c9942@Helen> <017401c46780$afc6c250$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <003a01c46784$9cd62380$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

How'd I make out?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] glitches


> I tried my best, Helen, but the final vote was 17 to 1 to not blackball
you.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Jul 11 16:35:11 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:35:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com> <004701c4677a$1da489d0$010c9942@Helen> <017401c46780$afc6c250$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003a01c46784$9cd62380$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>
Message-ID: <01cc01c46786$92596ff0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Hey, I'd never try to get YOU blackballed, Mole--you're pr-ing my minimalism
essay!

--Bob G.




From tad at opus40.org  Sun Jul 11 17:00:23 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (The Old Mole)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:00:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com> <004701c4677a$1da489d0$010c9942@Helen> <017401c46780$afc6c250$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003a01c46784$9cd62380$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01cc01c46786$92596ff0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004701c4678a$19159890$6401a8c0@MoleHQ>

For a REAL mnmlst, that would be reason enough.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] glitches


> Hey, I'd never try to get YOU blackballed, Mole--you're pr-ing my
minimalism
> essay!
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Jul 11 17:16:19 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:16:19 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com> <004701c4677a$1da489d0$010c9942@Helen> <017401c46780$afc6c250$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003a01c46784$9cd62380$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> <01cc01c46786$92596ff0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <01bb01c4678c$4f4a2c80$ea1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Oh you can bl-ckb-ll me then, I am so dyslexic-prolix baroque Braques-que
Bluebarry Anny
Ball-ardini

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 10:35 PM


> Hey, I'd never try to get YOU blackballed, Mole--you're pr-ing my
minimalism
> essay!
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Sun Jul 11 21:56:55 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:56:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
In-Reply-To: <019d01c46781$0b7251a0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com>
 <20040707150958.S87676@kpaul.spinweb.net> <019d01c46781$0b7251a0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <20040711205545.W9164@kpaul.spinweb.net>

tis not karl ;)

-kpaul

p.s charging way too much - pennies per letter - because of going with 
cafe press. i should be getting my first copy in a day or two. i haven't 
even seen a completed product yet. ;)

  On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Bob Grumman 
wrote:

> Hey, Karl, if you're going to be shameless, tell people how much you're
> charging for it and how they can get it!  Chee.
>
> --Bob G., veteran self-publisher
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jul 12 06:57:40 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:57:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c467ff$112b7a80$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Name one poet who is not well known
whom you admire -
One? What about hundreds?
(On d alexander, John Gorham
& especially Seymour Faust)

On finishing The Alphabet

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Chris Stroffolino
on Michael Moore 
& Bowling for Columbine

Censoring blogs in South Korea

Gael Turnbull, RIP

Evocation of the lost world:
the Berkeley poetry scene
at the end of World War I

Fahrenheit 9/11:
Fair & ultimately balanced

Judson Crews:
A "New American" poet
of the Southwest

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 12 08:25:08 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:25:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <20040707150958.S87676@kpaul.spinweb.net> <019d01c46781$0b7251a0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <20040711205545.W9164@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <00a801c4680b$47480e10$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Good grief, you already told me that once before, kpaul.
I know too many Karls to not see every short k-name as Karl.  Sorry.

--Bob G.



From Thom424 at aol.com  Mon Jul 12 09:37:01 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:37:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Happy=20Birthday=20Neftal=ED=20Ricardo=20Reyes=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Basoalto,=20aka=20Pablo=20Neruda!=20(The=20world's=20grea?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?test=20poet=3F)?=
Message-ID: <1e1.2527effd.2e23edfd@aol.com>

POETRY

And it was at that age...Poetry arrived
in search of me. I don't know, I don't know where
it came from, from winter or a river.
I don't know how or when,
no, they were not voices, they were not
words, nor silence,
but from a street I was summoned,
from the branches of night,
abruptly from the others,
among violent fires
or returning alone,
there I was without a face
and it touched me.
I did not know what to say, my mouth
had no way
with names
my eyes were blind,
and something started in my soul,
fever or forgotten wings,
and I made my own way,
deciphering
that fire
and I wrote the first faint line,
faint, without substance, pure
nonsense,
pure wisdom
of someone who knows nothing,
and suddenly I saw
the heavens
unfastened
and open,
planets,
palpitating planations,
shadow perforated,
riddled
with arrows, fire and flowers,
the winding night, the universe.
And I, infinitesmal being,
drunk with the great starry
void,
likeness, image of
mystery,
I felt myself a pure part
of the abyss,
I wheeled with the stars,
my heart broke free on the open sky.
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 11:54:29 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:54:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  B.H. Fairchild
Message-ID: <20040712155429.58194.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com>

I had a chance to hear Fairchild read at West Chester
last month.  What a great reader!  I found myself
literally sitting on the edge of my seat, the way I do
in movie theaters, while he read his narratives. He
read one long poem about three boys crashing a car
just for fun--the poem was almost cinematic.

I suppose I'm sheltered, but he was new to me; this
weekend, I purchased _Early Occult Memory Systems of
the Lower Midwest_, a book I've really enjoyed as I'm
reading through it.  I like his working class
portraits, the way he weaves class and myth with
narrative and mediation.  He manages to mix the sorrow
of lost childhood with the wisdom of old age,
tempering his narratives with a healthy dose of one
part skepticism and one part humorous irony.  The poem
below isn't my favorite from the book ("Brazil" is my
favorite right now), but I do like this one.

Comments?  Flames?  Insults?

Thanks,

Jeff Newberry


Mrs. Hill

I am so young that I am still in love 
with Battle Creek, Michigan: decoder rings, 
submarines powered by baking soda, 
whistles that only dogs can hear. Actually, 
not even them. Nobody can hear them. 

Mrs. Hill from next door is hammering 
on our front door shouting, and my father 
in his black and gold gangster robe lets her in 
trembling and bunched up like a rabbit in snow 
pleading, oh I'm so sorry, so sorry, 
so sorry, and clutching the neck of her gown 
as if she wants to choke herself. He said 
he was going to shoot me. He has a shotgun 
and he said he was going to shoot me. 

I have never heard of such a thing. A man 
wanting to shoot his wife. His wife. 
I am standing in the center of a room 
barefoot on the cold linoleum, and a woman 
is crying and being held and soothed 
by my mother. Outside, through the open door 
my father is holding a shotgun, 
and his shadow envelops Mr. Hill, 
who bows his head and sobs into his hands. 

A line of shadow seems to be moving 
across our white fence: hunched-over soldiers 
on a death march, or kindly old ladies 
in flower hats lugging grocery bags. 

At Roman's Salvage tire tubes 
are hanging from trees, where we threw them. 
In the corner window of Beacon Hardware there's a
sign: WHO HAS 3 OR 4 ROOMS FOR ME. SPEAK NOW.
For some reason Mrs. Hill is wearing mittens. 
Closed in a fist, they look like giant raisins. 
in the Encyclopedia Britannica Junior
the great Pharoahs are lying in their tombs, 
the library of Alexandria is burning. 
Somewhere in Cleveland or Kansas City 
the Purple Heart my father refused in WWII 
is sitting in a Muriel cigar box, 
and every V-Day someone named Schwartz 
or Jackson gets drunk and takes it out. 

In the kitchen now Mrs. Hill is playing 
gin rummy with my mother and laughing 
in those long shrieks that women have 
that make you think they are dying. 

I walk into the front yard where moonlight 
drips from the fenders of our Pontiac Chieftan. 
I take out my dog whistle. Nothing moves. 
No one can hear it. Dogs are asleep all over town. 
--B.H. Fairchild


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Jul 12 12:49:21 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:49:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] glitches
References: <00bf01c4640e$1498bb50$261c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <f160a12104070806309aa629a@mail.gmail.com> <004701c4677a$1da489d0$010c9942@Helen> <017401c46780$afc6c250$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <004b01c46830$680bcfe0$62dcf63f@Helen>

Listen, I've been kicked out of better places than this.

xxx

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] glitches


> I tried my best, Helen, but the final vote was 17 to 1 to not blackball
you.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Jul 13 23:26:24 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:26:24 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  B.H. Fairchild
In-Reply-To: <20040712155429.58194.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <024c01c46952$5fa4d810$84321c40@Emily>

A slightly more interesting Phil Levine?

T.




From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 21:08:15 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:08:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] test
Message-ID: <20040713010815.96141.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>

testing, testing, 1..2..3..

Is anyone else having trouble getting messages?

Jeff Newberry


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From kpaul at mallasch.com  Tue Jul 13 00:32:44 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:32:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] found SPAM poem -  "Don't be silly"
Message-ID: <20040712232711.N20723@kpaul.spinweb.net>

exactly as i received it from the spoofed email: Alison Gustafson 
<yjarojm at playful.com>

does it stand up? if you cut out the 'ad' in the middle, maybe i think, 
personally... are they lines from other works? or random words strung 
together?

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

--------------------------------

If the pay was right, I'd travel with the carnival.
Interviewee wore a Walkman, explaining that she could listen to the
interviewer and the music at the
The ventilation system of any building is the perfect hiding place. No
one will ever think of lookin
derwear, which is what they happened to be wearing when the car broke
down.
same time.

     Order from Canada and sa ve mo ney.

***We are running hot specials***
Meds starts at only $60

Just look at some of our prices...
- 30 Valium = $90
- 35 via gra = $87.50
- 20 cialis = $80
- 50 vioxx = $60
- 30 xanax = $66

- All orders comes with 5 additional pills for f r [e] e. - Meds are
80% less than regular price
- No doctor visits or pre.scription required.
- Quick delivery to your front door

To order starts here....


I did not object to the object.
He could lead if he would get the lead out.
When they are alone, all foreigners prefer to speak English to each
other.
I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
When they are alone, all foreigners prefer to speak English to each
other.
Once a week, I usually feel hot all over.


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Jul 13 23:52:22 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:52:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  B.H. Fairchild
Message-ID: <8.51e08070.2e2607f6@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/13/2004 6:56:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: 
> 
> I had a chance to hear Fairchild read at West Chester
> last month.  What a great reader!  I found myself
> literally sitting on the edge of my seat, the way I do
> in movie theaters, while he read his narratives. He
> read one long poem about three boys crashing a car
> just for fun--the poem was almost cinematic.
> 
> I suppose I'm sheltered, but he was new to me; this
> weekend, I purchased _Early Occult Memory Systems of
> the Lower Midwest_, a book I've really enjoyed as I'm
> reading through it.  I like his working class
> portraits, the way he weaves class and myth with
> narrative and mediation.  He manages to mix the sorrow
> of lost childhood with the wisdom of old age,
> tempering his narratives with a healthy dose of one
> part skepticism and one part humorous irony.  The poem
> below isn't my favorite from the book ("Brazil" is my
> favorite right now), but I do like this one.
> 
> Comments?  Flames?  Insults?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff Newberry

Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk at WCUPA.  As you know, I'm a great fan 
of Pete Fairchild's work.  We've know each other over 30 years, but during the 
three years we taught together in the early 70s he never once mentioned that 
he wrote poetry.
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From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Jul 13 23:57:01 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:57:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  B.H. Fairchild
In-Reply-To: <8.51e08070.2e2607f6@cs.com>
Message-ID: <025001c46956$a5f50a20$84321c40@Emily>

If his name's Pete, what' s the B.H. stand for?
I saw him a few months ago, in a bar, clutching my good friend Robyn's
book.  I didn't bother approaching him, but thought he must have good
taste, as Robyn is a fabulous poet.
 
Tony
 


Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk at WCUPA.  As you know, I'm a great
fan of Pete Fairchild's work.  We've know each other over 30 years, but
during the three years we taught together in the early 70s he never once
mentioned that he wrote poetry.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 14 06:42:13 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:42:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] test
References: <20040713010815.96141.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006201c4698f$3b32eed0$4defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> testing, testing, 1..2..3..
>
> Is anyone else having trouble getting messages?
>
> Jeff Newberry


Mine sometimes take a couple of days to be posted.  I imagine I'm getting
others' posts late, too, but haven't been checking.

--Bob G.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Jul 14 08:06:41 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:06:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  B.H. Fairchild
Message-ID: <1db.262aafa8.2e267bd1@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/13/2004 8:57:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
antrobin at clipper.net writes: 
> If his name?s Pete, what? s the B.H. stand for?
> 
>  I saw him a few months ago, in a bar, clutching my good friend Robyn?s 
> book.  I didn?t bother approaching him, but thought he must have good taste, as 
> Robyn is a fabulous poet.
> 
>   
> 
>  Tony
> 
> 
> 
It's Bertram Harry, I believe.  Pete was a family nickname that stuck.
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From crystallyn at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 11:27:03 2004
From: crystallyn at gmail.com (Crystal King)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:27:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_[New-Poetry]_Happy_Birthday_Neftal=ED_Ricardo_Reyes_B?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?asoalto,_aka_Pablo_Neruda!_(The_world's_greatest_poet=3F)?=
In-Reply-To: <1e1.2527effd.2e23edfd@aol.com>
References: <1e1.2527effd.2e23edfd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <d03e49bc04071408277d16d72f@mail.gmail.com>

I would have to admit that Neruda is one of my favorites. I'm a sucker
for his lush, powerful imagery.

There's an interesting article in the New York Times about him:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/books/12NERU.html
(free subscription required)

Essentially, it's about how Chileans are embracing the more "poetic"
things about Neruda and his life rather than truly embracing the often
controversial body of his work.


----- Original Message -----
From: thom424 at aol.com <thom424 at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:37:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Neftal? Ricardo Reyes Basoalto,
aka Pablo Neruda! (The world's greatest poet?)
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

POETRY



And it was at that age...Poetry arrived

in search of me. I don't know, I don't know where

it came from, from winter or a river.

I don't know how or when,

no, they were not voices, they were not

words, nor silence,

but from a street I was summoned,

from the branches of night,

abruptly from the others,

among violent fires

or returning alone,

there I was without a face

and it touched me.

I did not know what to say, my mouth

had no way

with names

my eyes were blind,

and something started in my soul,

fever or forgotten wings,

and I made my own way,

deciphering

that fire

and I wrote the first faint line,

faint, without substance, pure

nonsense,

pure wisdom

of someone who knows nothing,

and suddenly I saw

the heavens

unfastened

and open,

planets,

palpitating planations,

shadow perforated,

riddled

with arrows, fire and flowers,

the winding night, the universe.

And I, infinitesmal being,

drunk with the great starry

void,

likeness, image of

mystery,

I felt myself a pure part

of the abyss,

I wheeled with the stars,

my heart broke free on the open sky.




-- 
Hitch your wagon to a star. ~ Emerson



From antrobin at clipper.net  Wed Jul 14 11:53:31 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:53:31 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Happy_Birthday_N?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?eftal=ED_Ricardo_Reyes_Basoalto=2C_aka_Pablo_Neruda!_=28Th?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?e_world's_greatest_poet=3F=29?=
In-Reply-To: <d03e49bc04071408277d16d72f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028701c469ba$beaa1e70$84321c40@Emily>

I once had a poem rejected by an editor with this comment:

"I love this poem, but I also love Neruda. Sorry."


Perplexed,
Tony





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 14 12:37:31 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:37:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_RE:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Re:_=5BNew-Poetr?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?y=5D_Happy_Birthday_Neftal=ED_Ricardo_Reyes_Basoalto=2C_ak?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?a_Pablo_Neruda!_=28The_world's_greatest_poet=3F=29?=
References: <028701c469ba$beaa1e70$84321c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <013601c469c0$debde240$4defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I once had a poem rejected by an editor with this comment:
>
> "I love this poem, but I also love Neruda. Sorry."
>
>
> Perplexed,
> Tony

Maybe he thought your poem was too close to something by Neruda?  Just a
guess.

--Bob G.




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 14 13:18:37 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:18:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  B.H. Fairchild
Message-ID: <5b.536d458d.2e26c4ed@aol.com>



you know, I'm a great fan of Pete Fairchild's work.  We've know each other 
over 30 years, but during the three years we taught together in the early 70s he 
never once mentioned that he wrote poetry.
--

Maybe he hadn't started writing till later? I noticed him first when
a couple people suggested _The Work of the Lathe_ (Alice James),
published in '97.
http://departments.umf.maine.edu/departments/ajb/art_lathe.html
I see that he has another book out from AJ called _The Arrival of the 
Future_. Looks like he jumped ship for a bigger press (Norton) with that new 
book...unless Alice James did not offer to do it?
Here's a question: Do you think when it comes to book sales & one's career as 
a poet, there is much difference anymore between publishing with Norton or 
FSG o Knopf/Random House versus an established
small press like Alice James or Gray Wolf or Boa Editions?
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 14 13:57:20 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:57:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fulton: Justice + Beauty = Sublime
Message-ID: <1de.24c48a1e.2e26ce00@aol.com>

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2004-07-13.htm
Justice + Beauty = Sublime 
 
The acclaimed poet Alice Fulton talks about Cascade Experiment, her new 
collection of poems, and why art must aim to be "fair"?in both senses of the word
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Jul 14 14:12:53 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:12:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  B.H. Fairchild
Message-ID: <5b.536d45f8.2e26d1a5@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/14/2004 12:19:43 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> 
> 
> you know, I'm a great fan of Pete Fairchild's work.  We've know each other 
> over 30 years, but during the three years we taught together in the early 70s 
> he never once mentioned that he wrote poetry.
> 
> --
>   
>  Maybe he hadn't started writing till later? I noticed him first when
>  a couple people suggested _The Work of the Lathe_ (Alice James),
>  published in '97.
>  http://departments.umf.maine.edu/departments/ajb/art_lathe.html
>  I see that he has another book out from AJ called _The Arrival of the 
> Future_. Looks like he jumped ship for a bigger press (Norton) with that new 
> book...unless Alice James did not offer to do it?
>  Here's a question: Do you think when it comes to book sales & one's career 
> as a poet, there is much difference anymore between publishing with Norton or 
> FSG o Knopf/Random House versus an established
>  small press like Alice James or Gray Wolf or Boa Editions?
>  Finnegan
> 
In answer to the latter question, I'd say no, and the smaller presses are 
much more likely to keep the book in print for a longer period.

The Arrival of the Future was originally published by a small press called, I 
believe, Swallow's Tale.  The print job was a mess, with many lines almost 
illegible, and the publisher didn't have the resources or the gumption to have i
t redone.  
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 14 20:41:12 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:41:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] test
Message-ID: <45.1088258b.2e272ca8@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/13/2004 11:36:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes:

> Is anyone else having trouble getting messages?

There was a problem with the whole system this past 
week. (But list traffic was slow also.) The listserv software 
has dumped me into 'No Mail' status 3 times 
in the last week...without warning or notice. 
(Even the list manager is subject to ill-treatment.) 
I'm expecting an upgrade of the software sometime 
this summer...so it is I'm advised by the tech person 
at VA Tech, Len Hatfield, who has been a great help
to me since the founding of this list.
Jim Finnegan
List Manager
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 14 20:56:30 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:56:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Obit in more than 17 syllables
Message-ID: <d.2d3fb78e.2e27303e@aol.com>

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?eo20040628hs.htm
Japanese poetry loses a gentleman-scholar

By HIROAKI SATO

His position was a classic classicist's: "haiku is too reduced a form and 
grows too complexly out of its cultural background to be adaptable as a whole 
into Western languages" and actual haiku written in those languages are "almost 
invariably . . . trivial."


    
    

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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 14 21:06:16 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:06:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted
Message-ID: <ba.5ae921e8.2e273288@aol.com>

Jacket magazine has advertised for people to review books for the magazine.

Further information here:

     http://jacketmagazine.com/reviews-db/unassigned.html
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 14 21:32:29 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:32:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Well said
Message-ID: <7d.52f31480.2e2738ad@aol.com>

"...it is not necessary, because an epoch is confused, 
that its poet should share its confusions."

Robinson Jeffers , "Poetry, Gongorism and a Thousand Years" 
(from  _The Loyalties of Robinson Jeffers_ by Radcliffe Squires)
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 15 14:21:09 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, Toot
Message-ID: <20040715182109.883.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com>

Tooting my own horn here, I suppose.  But, if I don't,
who else will?

http://www.storysouth.com/

Check it out if you get a chance.

Jeff Newberry

=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 15 18:09:54 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:09:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neruda Fest
Message-ID: <b8.5d249907.2e285ab2@aol.com>

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Entertainment/reuters20040711_206.html
July 11, 2004 ? By Louise Egan
SANTIAGO, Chile (Reuters) - Chileans threw a giant poetry fest on Sunday for 
the 100th birthday of Nobel prize-winning poet, Pablo Neruda, in celebrations 
that attracted some unlikely admirers of the communist poet.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul 16 08:40:41 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:40:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fiction's Pecking Order
Message-ID: <148.2e653b2a.2e2926c9@aol.com>

I was listening to NPR this morning and there was
a segment on literary fiction's version of William Logan:
Dale Peck.
I couldn't find the text of the radio segment, but
here's a related article.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2103511
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From Thom424 at aol.com  Fri Jul 16 09:11:24 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:11:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Pecking...
Message-ID: <147.2e7190d8.2e292dfc@aol.com>

also, read john leonard's review (in the 7-18 *nyt book review*) of peck's 
*hatchet job*. leonard concludes his review with this advice to peck: "get over 
yourself."


thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
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From halvard at gmail.com  Fri Jul 16 09:25:53 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:25:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PW discontinues poetry
In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040715235748.0205f0c0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040715235748.0205f0c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <f160a121040716062514f8e9c3@mail.gmail.com>

FWI

Hal


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rochelle Ratner <rochelleratner at mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:04:14 -0400
Subject: PW discontinues poetry
To: 

In case you have not heard, Publishers Weekly has decided to
discontinue coverage of poetry forecasts.  I am forwarding this
message below from Jeffrey Lependorf of CLMP to a few leaders in the
poetry community to try to see if there is anything we can do to
convince PW to reverse its decision.  Please spread the word and
contact the name below to voice your concern.

________________________________

Begin forwarded message: 

From: "Martha  Rhodes" <martha.rhodes at worldnet.att.net 
Date: July 14, 2004 5:09:43 PM EDT 
To: "Martha Rhodes" <four_way_editors at yahoo.com 
Subject: PUBLISHER"S WEEKLY PLS HELP 

Please help convince Publishers Weekly that they should continue
reviewing poetry. They have decided to stop reviewing in the Forecast
section. Pls read the following. Contact info is included. The
following is from Jeffrey Lependorf, Executive Director of the Council
of Literary Magazines and Small Presses.
Dear Friends of Poetry: Some of you may already have heard that
Publishers Weekly has decided to cease offering a Forecast review
section dedicated to poetry. I spoke with Michael Scharf, the Poetry
Forecast Editor, who confirmed the news; I then spoke with Jeff
Zalesky, the Editor of the Forecast section, to find out exactly what
is going on.

Jeff confirmed that there will no longer be a dedicated Forecast for
poetry. They do not intend to offer a press release or formal
statement to this effect, either. He did make a point of saying that
they will "not be giving up on poetry." According to Jeff, they will
still offer reviews of poetry titles, though these will only amount to
2-4 reviews a month. The reviews will most likely concentrate on
"bigger name" poets, and PW will continue its policy of not reviewing
first books. Jeff says that they do still plan to periodically present
a special section of the Forecast devoted to poetry.

He gave multiple reasons for this decision, which were primarily
bottom line-related. He stated that he has to put his "resources where
the subscribers ask for them--and that's not poetry." He went on to
say that because so many of the big stores and chains now have people
dedicated to poetry, and there is so much readily-accessible online
commentary about poetry, that the "PW reviews have become redundant."
He also acknowledged that poetry makes up a very small base in terms
of their advertising revenue.

Certainly we believe that PW has made a bad, "penny-wise,
pound-foolish" decision. Here are some recommendations we have toward
convincing them to reinstate the Poetry Forecast:

1) Direct letters/emails to Jeff Silesky expressing your
disappointment in light of PW's historical support of the independent
press community can't hurt. I don't believe that complaints or
expressions of anger from you will have a tremendous effect, but you
should make the importance of PW reviews to you known. Jeff made a
point of saying to me that he had "hardly heard form anyone." (On the
contrary, Mike Scharf did hear from many of you, but it is clear that
this is not his decision.)

2) More importantly, I believe that if Jeff Zalesky hears from his
constituents--namely, booksellers and librarians--this may have a much
greater effect. Urge booksellers and librarians that you have a
relationship with to contact PW to reinstate the Poetry Forecast.

Here's is the contact for Jeff Zalesky: 

Jeff Zalesky, Forecasts Editor 
Publishers Weekly 
jzaleski at reedbusiness.com 

________________________________

Rochelle Ratner

www.rochelleratner.com
mailto:rochelleratner at mindspring.com



-- 
Hal                Art and Plastic Surgery

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul 16 13:58:18 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:58:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PW discontinues poetry
References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040715235748.0205f0c0@pop.mindspring.com> <f160a121040716062514f8e9c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010401c46b5e$7bbf77e0$2defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Gotta throw in some literary terrorism:  Since when did Publishers Weekly ever review poetry?

--Bob Grumman
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Jul 16 14:03:03 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:03:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Pecking...
References: <147.2e7190d8.2e292dfc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012601c46b5f$26f19c10$2defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

also, read john leonard's review (in the 7-18 *nyt book review*) of peck's *hatchet job*. leonard concludes his review with this advice to peck: "get over yourself."


thom tammaro

Interesting how often some writer says bad things about some other writer or writers and then is accused of thinking too highly of himself.  

--Bob G.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul 16 23:20:07 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:20:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PW discontinues poetry
Message-ID: <64.410c3c83.2e29f4e7@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:59:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Since when did Publishers Weekly ever review poetry?
>   
> 

Bob, if I recall the Forecast reviews were not real reviews...just glorified
announcements really...and as such of use to small publshers like
Four Ways because some acquisition librarians used these expanded
squibs as a prompt to order some poetry books. I don't think there
are any general subscribers to Publisher's Weekly... the general reader
of poetry, if that person is more than a fiction, won't miss what s/he's 
missing.
Finnegan
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Sat Jul 17 12:22:12 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:22:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] PART 2: The fighting poets (in Fallujah)
In-Reply-To: <f160a121040716062514f8e9c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.1.1.1.2.20040715235748.0205f0c0@pop.mindspring.com>
 <f160a121040716062514f8e9c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040717112020.H31729@kpaul.spinweb.net>

interesting read...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FG17Ak01.html

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/



From halvard at gmail.com  Sat Jul 17 09:19:13 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:19:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PW discontinues poetry
In-Reply-To: <64.410c3c83.2e29f4e7@aol.com>
References: <64.410c3c83.2e29f4e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <f160a12104071706196e33a96e@mail.gmail.com>

Just for the record, PW is read mostly by librarians and
booksellers. It's one of the sources they use when ordering
books for their libraries or shoppes.

Hal


----- Original Message -----
From: jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:20:07 EDT
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PW discontinues poetry
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:59:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


Since when did Publishers Weekly ever review poetry?
  


Bob, if I recall the Forecast reviews were not real reviews...just glorified
announcements really...and as such of use to small publshers like
Four Ways because some acquisition librarians used these expanded
squibs as a prompt to order some poetry books. I don't think there
are any general subscribers to Publisher's Weekly... the general reader
of poetry, if that person is more than a fiction, won't miss what
s/he's missing.
Finnegan 



-- 
Hal                Art and Plastic Surgery

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Jul 17 20:25:15 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:25:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PW discontinues poetry
References: <64.410c3c83.2e29f4e7@aol.com> <f160a12104071706196e33a96e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a101c46c5d$b53479d0$62efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Just for the record, PW is read mostly by librarians and
> booksellers. It's one of the sources they use when ordering
> books for their libraries or shoppes.
> 
> Hal

Alas.



From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jul 19 07:07:38 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:07:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog: Where to begin?
Message-ID: <002901c46d80$9aa6ca40$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

An MFA student asks
where to begin

Where is Laurable?

A note about Blogger

What of Stein & Zukofsky
in Robert Duncan's model
on an older poet?

Why The H.D. Book?
Robert Duncan at the threshold
of his great poetry 

Setting poems to music -
would you, if you could?

Name one poet who is not well known
whom you admire -
One? What about hundreds?
(On d alexander, John Gorham
& especially Seymour Faust)

On finishing The Alphabet

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Chris Stroffolino
on Michael Moore 
& Bowling for Columbine

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Mon Jul 19 09:25:19 2004
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 04 09:25:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Pecking....
Message-ID: <200407191333.i6JDWZkK112738@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:03:47 -0400 *************
Leonard's other comment, "..this isn't reviewing, it's thugee "(he might
have said thuggery) was more trenchant. When someone (Peck) disses
Joyce, Julian Barnes, and Don deLillo, he needs to make his case
very well.  Peck just invects (should be a word if it isn't.)

And then when he admires Vonnegut, surely the most ersatz writer
we've had for a long time, we know where he's coming from.

Peck wants to be the William Logan of fiction... they're welcome
to each other.

Richard


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 19 13:54:01 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:54:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The pitch: This dude Beowulf rips the arm right off the monster...
Message-ID: <6b.2e94116b.2e2d64b9@aol.com>

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Entertainment/reuters20040716_41.html
 
'Beowulf' Pic Set to Slay Hollywood
July 16, 2004 ? By Borys Kit
LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - One of the oldest poems in English 
literature is being turned into a Hollywood movie.
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 19 15:13:51 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The pitch: This dude Beowulf rips the arm right off the monster...
In-Reply-To: <6b.2e94116b.2e2d64b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040719191351.56073.qmail@web52610.mail.yahoo.com>

Wasn't it already made into a really trite Christopher
Lambert vehicle?


Jeff Newberry

--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Entertainment/reuters20040716_41.html
>  
> 'Beowulf' Pic Set to Slay Hollywood
> July 16, 2004 ??? By Borys Kit
> LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - One of the oldest
> poems in English 
> literature is being turned into a Hollywood movie.
> 


=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


		
__________________________________
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jul 19 16:49:39 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul.lake)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:49:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:
Message-ID: <agnpxerbsodimhxetcl@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

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From GRAHAMD at RIPON.EDU  Mon Jul 19 16:50:39 2004
From: GRAHAMD at RIPON.EDU (GRAHAMD)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:50:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:
Message-ID: <qmvbymweriyntbiglux@WIZ.CATH.VT.EDU>

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From terzarima at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 19 20:39:00 2004
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (terzarima at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:39:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The pitch: This dude Beowulf rips the arm right
 off the monster...
In-Reply-To: <6b.2e94116b.2e2d64b9@aol.com>
References: <6b.2e94116b.2e2d64b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040719203900.3d41b561.terzarima@earthlink.net>

Oh dear. 

I do hope that they realize there isn't a wolf in it.


--Suzanne


On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:54:01 EDT
JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Entertainment/reuters20040716_41.html
>  
> 'Beowulf' Pic Set to Slay Hollywood
> July 16, 2004 ??? By Borys Kit
> LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - One of the oldest poems in English 
> literature is being turned into a Hollywood movie.
> 





From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 20 13:44:40 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:44:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Cording in *Image*
Message-ID: <20040720174440.82144.qmail@web52603.mail.yahoo.com>

The following is from Poetry Daily's prose feature,
reprinted from the new issue of *Image:  A Journal of
the Arts and Relgion*.  The following is actually part
of a much larger symposium of artists talking about
the state of Christianity in the field of the arts. 
Robert Cording writes about poetry, but other artists
talk about film, fiction, modern dance, and classical
music, as well.

 . . . The poet?s obligation, then, is not to become a
priest (as the modernist dictum often had it) but
rather to become priestly, to evoke the world in such
a way that what ?struck us as ordinary, is revealed as
miraculous.? The human search, then, is always for a
language that can help us see the world again as if
for the first time. What we listen for in the ?sound
of words,? Stevens tells us in ?The Noble Rider and
the Sound of Words? is a ?finality, a perfection, an
unalterable vibration? that bring us closer (since
metaphor always seeks to bring the world closer in its
act of finding correspondences) to the ?muddy center,?
the first idea, God.
 --Robert Cording, "Finding the World's Fullness" 




=====
Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 20 18:11:25 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:11:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dylan Can Stand With Shakespeare
Message-ID: <127.46033fab.2e2ef28d@aol.com>

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Entertainment/US/bob_dylan_040720-1.html
 
Rocking the Canon
If Dylan Can Stand With Shakespeare, Who's Next?
By Dean Schabner
ABCNEWS.com
July 20, 2004?

--- 
 
Now he has added a 500-page study of the nasal-voiced folk singer, Dylan's 
Visions of Sin, published by Ecco. The close reading of Dylan's songs explores 
his examinations of sins, virtues and graces, and unapologetically places him 
in the company of the masters of English poetry, like Shakespeare.
 
Well, maybe, but he still had to wait his turn. When Ricks was ready to start 
the Dylan book, T.S. Eliot's widow asked him to edit a selection of 
previously unpublished poems by her husband. The folk singer was put on hold.
 
"I just think when the widow of T.S. Eliot asks you to do something, you do 
it, don't you?" he said.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 21 14:20:21 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:20:21 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] History of the Night- Borges
Message-ID: <002501c46f4f$63903070$38607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

      Jorge Luis Borges PoemHunter.com 
     

             
             
            History of the Night 

            Throughout the course of the generations 
            men constructed the night. 
            At first she was blindness; 
            thorns raking bare feet, 
            fear of wolves. 
            We shall never know who forged the word 
            for the interval of shadow 
            dividing the two twilights; 
            we shall never know in what age it came to mean 
            the starry hours. 
            Others created the myth. 
            They made her the mother of the unruffled Fates 
            that spin our destiny, 
            they sacrificed black ewes to her, and the cock 
            who crows his own death. 
            The Chaldeans assigned to her twelve houses; 
            to Zeno, infinite words. 
            She took shape from Latin hexameters 
            and the terror of Pascal. 
            Luis de Leon saw in her the homeland 
            of his stricken soul. 
            Now we feel her to be inexhuastible 
            like an ancient wine 
            and no one can gaze on her without vertigo 
            and time has charged her with eternity. 


            And to think that she wouldn't exist 
            except for those fragile instruments, the eyes. 

            Jorge Luis Borges 
     
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 21 14:48:34 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
In-Reply-To: <002501c46f4f$63903070$38607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <20040721184834.33207.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, Rockingham Press have turned down a volume of my
poems not on the basis of merit but because they have
no grant funding from the Arts Council.  Does anyone
want to comment on this state of affairs, whenever a
commitee not the public says who's read and what goes?
best wishes,
Paul Murphy
www.theengine.net
www.pospressed.com.au


		
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From cc at opus0.com  Wed Jul 21 15:10:18 2004
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:10:18 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham & language
In-Reply-To: <200405131806.i4DI62XE013261@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHIEBOCPAA.cc@opus0.com>

A last note on the subject!  When I rejoined the list oh maybe five months
ago the first new-po message I received was from Mr. Finnegan announcing the
poetry workshop in Sligo that Ms. Graham is teaching.  Well, I applied and
was recently accepted.  So I'll let y'all know how it goes.  Thanks Jim.
The msg below has been in my draft box for about 3 months, but is not stale,
I hope!

> | > CE Chaffin
> | CCooley
> CE Chaffin
CCooley

> | I believe that any move to make art useful is deprecatory (including 'to
> | connect...')  Only when it's allowed to be completely useless is it free
> | to do what it needs to do.


> Agreed.  Intelligible does not mean useful.    But if art does not connect
> to our beings, is it art?


It's an open question and I prefer to leave it open.  Also, the thing made
(the art) is only half of the conversation; on the receiving end, we can ask
"if our beings do not connect to the art, are they being?"  When
Rauschenberg uses an old tire in an assemblage, the question becomes: How do
I connect my being to an old tire?  A common reaction is to be angry at him
for playing a joke on us.  (Although these pieces are fifty years old, I
don't have any evidence that poetry, as a whole, has caught up to them.  I'm
hoping to out my ignorance!)  But there's another possibility: maybe by our
attention we can transform the mundane into the divine?


> | >     Substance over form if it comes to that.  I think the
> | > besetting error of
> | > our time, as typified by Ashbery late works and also Graham, is a
> | > pre-occupation with form.  If there's nothing new to say, well,
> | > we knew that
> | > already from the last chapter of Ecclesiastes.


> | To take exception to the great old preacher...  There is a sense in
which
> | everything now is new.  For example, we know we aren't really under the
sun
> | at all.


> Of course Solomon was speaking of human nature, not technology!


I'm not talking about technology either, rather I'm suggesting we can
transform meaning by our attention and this is dynamic, not static.  As an
example, the Copernican idea of the earth orbiting the sun obliterates the
notion of the sun "over" and ourselves "under".  On the question of human
nature, what is more natural to humans than meaning-making?  We could
probably agree that meanings change, new meanings replace older ones and
that we have a hand in this process by self-education.  The situation,
though necessarily retarded by convention, is entirely dynamic and possibly
transformative.  One addition to human knowledge from post-modernism is that
we live in a world of meanings, that is, an interpreted world.


> | > I think that's the emperor's clothes, the fashion, and to dig
> | > through another's veils in order to connect to one true imparted
emotion,
> | > or several, seems to me besides the point.  I'm not talking about the
> | > "naked" poetry of Bukowski or slam-world, of course, but say, the
> | > clarity of Strand's earlier work.  The magic.


> | I'm surprised you like Strand so much.  A probably incorrect intuition.
He
> | seems to be a bit of a nihilist.  (Or inversalist.)  I would guess that
you
> | are not.  But what do I know.


> This from an as yet unpublished interview due out in June:
>
> "Post-Modern" says nothing about the substance of poetry since Ginsberg's
> "Howl."  What Post-Modern literature has most in common is a preoccupation
> with self, which is the central question of our age, as psychoanalysis and
> existentialism have taught us.  So I thought the term "Existential" a more
> descriptive term for poetry since 1955.  As an aside, I find Strand's
> surrealistic meditations on depersonalization perhaps the most interesting
> and original approach during that early part of our era-call him
> post-confessional, if you will-because in his early work he struggles to
> find enough self _to confess_.


Very interesting.  Is the interview available online?




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 21 15:25:54 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:25:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not A Neruda Fan
Message-ID: <cd.11ce46fa.2e301d42@aol.com>

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/328fipbb.asp
 
The Weekly Standard, July 19 2004
Bad Poet, Bad Man 

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Jul 21 16:05:52 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:05:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not A Neruda Fan
Message-ID: <d7.fba00a3.2e3026a0@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/21/2004 12:27:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/328fipbb.asp
> 
> 
Bushwa, with every possible rhetorical trick from guilt by association to 
question-begging thrown in.  A lot of poets have written politically stupid 
poems, from Whitman to Pound and Eliot to Auden to Langston Hughes to Larkin.  
Throw away the dross and revel in the gold.  There's gold in them thar Macchu 
Picchu hills.  And, besides, I suspect that the best Neruda translations in that 
little book published by The Sixties Press were done by Wright, not Bly.
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From terzarima at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 21 16:25:43 2004
From: terzarima at earthlink.net (Suzanne Burns)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:25:43 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not A Neruda Fan
Message-ID: <8274037.1090441543544.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>


Macchu Picchu alone is worth its weight in gold.  If Neruda had written nothing else, I would still be in awe. I never tire of reading it, and I will always thank Mark Doty for introducing me to it. It is a work I can dip into almost at any point and feel an immediate charge, and it will always be one of my touchstones.

Neruda is by no means the first poet to be naive, or even grievously wrong, about politics.  Sheesh, if you really want political stupidity, look at Ezra Pound.  But this isn't why read him, right?

My two bits.

Suzanne



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Jul 21 16:28:30 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:28:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not A Neruda Fan
References: <cd.11ce46fa.2e301d42@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01b601c46f61$4be4c050$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/328fipbb.asp

   

  The Weekly Standard, July 19 2004

  Bad Poet, Bad Man 

  From the July 26, 2004 issue: A hundred years of Pablo Neruda 

  by Stephen Schwartz 

  07/26/2004, Volume 009, Issue 43

   

  There is probably no more chance of halting this current binge of Neruda worship than there is of banishing the cicadas, but, still, the truth does need to be said: Pablo Neruda was a bad writer and a bad man. His main public is located not in the Spanish-speaking nations but in the Anglo-European countries, and his reputation derives almost entirely from the iconic place he once occupied in politics--which is to say, he's "the greatest poet of the twentieth century" because he was a Stalinist at exactly the right moment, and not because of his poetry, which is doggerel.



  I'm no idolizer of Neruda and his politics aren't mine, but I hope none of my negative posts about poets sounds as dumb as this one.



  --Bob G.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Jul 21 16:31:58 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:31:58 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not A Neruda Fan
References: <8274037.1090441543544.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002901c46f61$c5fbc960$38607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I never particularly liked Neruda, de gustibus disputandum non est.
And I do think there is some free advertising for a political choice behind
it all.
Pound's question was different.

Anny

From: "Suzanne Burns" <terzarima at earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 10:25 PM


>
>
> Macchu Picchu alone is worth its weight in gold.  If Neruda had written
nothing else, I would still be in awe. I never tire of reading it, and I
will always thank Mark Doty for introducing me to it. It is a work I can dip
into almost at any point and feel an immediate charge, and it will always be
one of my touchstones.
>
> Neruda is by no means the first poet to be naive, or even grievously
wrong, about politics.  Sheesh, if you really want political stupidity, look
at Ezra Pound.  But this isn't why read him, right?
>
> My two bits.
>
> Suzanne
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From kellogg at duke.edu  Wed Jul 21 16:36:45 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:36:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not A Neruda Fan
In-Reply-To: <d7.fba00a3.2e3026a0@cs.com>
References: <d7.fba00a3.2e3026a0@cs.com>
Message-ID: <1090442205.40fed3dd22307@webmail.duke.edu>

Righto, Sam!  My favorite Neruda is the translation of "Heights of MP" by 
Nathaniel Tarn. The problem with Bly's translations is that they all sound 
like, well, Bly. 


Quoting Rsgwynn1 at cs.com:

> In a message dated 7/21/2004 12:27:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> > 
> >
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/328fipbb.asp
> > 
> > 
> Bushwa, with every possible rhetorical trick from guilt by association to 
> question-begging thrown in.  A lot of poets have written politically stupid 
> poems, from Whitman to Pound and Eliot to Auden to Langston Hughes to Larkin.
>  
> Throw away the dross and revel in the gold.  There's gold in them thar Macchu
> 
> Picchu hills.  And, besides, I suspect that the best Neruda translations in
> that 
> little book published by The Sixties Press were done by Wright, not Bly.
> 


David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 21 21:31:01 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:31:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
Message-ID: <bb.42a30307.2e3072d5@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/21/2004 2:49:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
clitophon at yahoo.com writes:

> Rockingham Press have turned down a volume of my
> poems not on the basis of merit but because they have
> no grant funding from the Arts Council.  Does anyone
> want to comment on this state of affairs, whenever a
> commitee not the public says who's read and what goes?
> best wishes,
> 

I'm not sure I understand the question, Paul.
It seems to be a case of  a press letting an author down 
lightly, who it would like to publish,  if funds were no object,
but they usually are in the small press world. Unless I'm
missing something, the Arts Council (committee) never
made a decision other than not to fund Rockingham Press.
Finnegan
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 21 19:26:42 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:26:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)
Message-ID: <20040721232642.83475.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com>

You all may be the wrong group to ask, but I'll try you anyway.  This isn't poetry related, so you can backchannel me at jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com if you want to answer.
 
I'm putting together a freshman composition course for the fall with violence in media as a theme.  We'll be looking at Gus Van Zant's *Elephant* as well as screening various news reports about recent violence in the mideast.  We'll look at some original news broadcasts of the Columbine massacre and look at some of Michael Moore's *Bowling for Columbine.*  The course will culminate with a reading of Truman Capote's *In Cold Blood.*  Right now, I'm trying to put together a kind of case book of essays and secondary sources that I can put on reserve in our campus library for students to access.  The problem is, I haven't had much luck in my searching.  I've found a few things through google, and I've located a couple of things in the MLA database.  My question:  can any recommend some good essays/secondary sources on either a) the novel *In Cold Blood* itself or b) explorations of the ethics underlying creative nonfiction or literary journalism?
 
My second question:  has anyone read Cornelius Eady's *Brutal Imagination?*  I think that the book raises some the questions I want to explore in the course.  For example, what are the ethical issues behind appropriating an episode of violence to tell a story or write a poem (or make a film or teach a class or . . . )?
 
Again--I know that not everyone here is an academic.  That's not the issue, I suppose.  I just that you would all be the group to ask.  If you have any suggestions for my proposed course, I'd love them, as well.
 
I wait for your responses (hoping . . . )
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Jeff Newberry


Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 21 21:24:30 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:24:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham & language
Message-ID: <55.5ca52200.2e30714e@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/21/2004 3:11:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, cc at opus0.com 
writes:

> in Sligo 

CE,,
Even if Jorie G and the conference
are less than you hoped for, you're
in a favorable landscape and close 
to the sacred source of WB Yeats. 
Good travels and a lovely Irish farewell 
that I've long forgotten the words to
Finnegan
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Jul 21 21:47:54 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:47:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)
Message-ID: <140.2ede7467.2e3076ca@cs.com>

Orwell's "Shooting an Elephant" might figure in, in some odd, metaphorical 
way.
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 21 22:08:37 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)
In-Reply-To: <140.2ede7467.2e3076ca@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20040722020837.20417.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks....

I think that I could use it.
 
Jeff Newberry

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
Orwell's "Shooting an Elephant" might figure in, in some odd, metaphorical way. 

Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 21 21:43:21 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:43:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Homage to Mattie Stepanek
Message-ID: <68.41bd0b96.2e3075b9@aol.com>

Homage to Mattie Stepanek

You were a good and beautiful kid
but a bad poet. Those HeartSongs of yours 
ran up sales on the best-seller list,
were lauded by Oprah and Jimmie Carter,

but more than anything you proved 
that people don't know what the shit poetry is,
and yet they want it so?want it so bad, want 
it to hold them close, to change their lives.

Speech is only the brain inflecting breath,
and now that your body has forgotten how 
to breathe, you know what poetry really is: 
A wheeze, half-gurgle and some spitting.
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From bardo at optonline.net  Wed Jul 21 23:29:21 2004
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:29:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Homage to Mattie Stepanek
References: <68.41bd0b96.2e3075b9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <023401c46f9c$14269270$6d94c044@MULDER>

A new genre? Homage as sabotage by barrage of overripe fromage?
"Cruel to describe," as Creeley says, "when there is no reason to describe."
In its last quatrain, this scorpion stings itself, suggesting that (all) poetry
"is" "A wheeze, half-gurgle and some spitting." Any similarly kind words
for Chatterton (a "chatterbox"?)? Such laudable restraint, not to have
fishhooked the kid while still alive! Cast a green eye . . .

~ Dan


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 9:43 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Homage to Mattie Stepanek


  Homage to Mattie Stepanek

  You were a good and beautiful kid
  but a bad poet. Those HeartSongs of yours 
  ran up sales on the best-seller list,
  were lauded by Oprah and Jimmie Carter,

  but more than anything you proved 
  that people don't know what the shit poetry is,
  and yet they want it so?want it so bad, want 
  it to hold them close, to change their lives.

  Speech is only the brain inflecting breath,
  and now that your body has forgotten how 
  to breathe, you know what poetry really is: 
  A wheeze, half-gurgle and some spitting.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 22 05:13:06 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:13:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Celebrating Whitman," University of Paris VII, July 4-5, 2005.
Message-ID: <002101c46fcc$19864d20$b3607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:55:22 +0200
 >From: ?ric Athenot <eric64 at club-internet.fr>


"Celebrating Walt Whitman" (July 4-5, 2005)


July 5, 2005 will mark the 150th anniversary of the first edition of
Whitman?s Leaves of Grass. To celebrate this watershed in American poetry
and in world literature the University of Paris VII will hold a 2-day
international conference on Walt Whitman. The aim of the conference is to
assess the special significance of the original edition in the context of
antebellum American belles-lettres and culture while evaluating its
remarkable position in the series of editions that were to culminate in the
definitive Leaves of Grass. The conference will also explore the continuing
presence of the poetry and the figure of its creator in the works of writers
of the two following centuries. Whitman as a cultural icon (in film, music
and art) will also be considered. Finally, a special emphasis will be placed
on Whitman in France, how Leaves of Grass was first received in this
country, what made it so important to French poets and poetry-lovers but
also what the French practice of textual analysis (explication de texte) can
contribute to Whitmanian studies through close readings of some of the
poems. 200-word proposals should be sent to ?ric Athenot
(eric64 at club-internet.fr) or Mark Niemeyer
(Mark.Niemeyer at paris4.sorbonne.fr) by November 30, 2004.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 22 05:50:55 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:50:55 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)
References: <20040722020837.20417.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009601c46fd1$621a5f40$b3607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

_The silence of the lambs_ (1991) by Jonathan Demme with Anthony Hopkins and Jodie Foster.
Any movie by Wes Craven, I just watched _A nightmare on Elm Street_ (1984) quite scary, the litemotiv: "Whatever you do, don't fall asleep".
For those who have a thick skin: _Eraserhead_ (1977) by David Lynch, runtime: 89'.
To read and discuss: Bret Easton Ellis' American Psycho (1991) written at the age of 27, here is a brief bio: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Bret-Easton-Ellis.
There was also a remake of Jack the Ripper two or three years ago, but I cannot remember the title.

Anny 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)


  Thanks....

  I think that I could use it.

  Jeff Newberry

  Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
    Orwell's "Shooting an Elephant" might figure in, in some odd, metaphorical way. 


  Jeff Newberry

  "Sometimes it's not so easy,
  especially when your only friend
  talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
  and you do just the same as him."
  --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Do you Yahoo!?
  Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Jul 22 06:02:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:02:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)
References: <20040722020837.20417.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> <009601c46fd1$621a5f40$b3607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00ac01c46fd3$0bc85f00$b3607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Ah the horrible _Monster_ (2003) by Patty Jenkins, a true fact it seems, prostitution, lesbians, murders.

  _The silence of the lambs_ (1991) by Jonathan Demme with Anthony Hopkins and Jodie Foster.
  Any movie by Wes Craven, I just watched _A nightmare on Elm Street_ (1984) quite scary, the litemotiv: "Whatever you do, don't fall asleep".
  For those who have a thick skin: _Eraserhead_ (1977) by David Lynch, runtime: 89'.
  To read and discuss: Bret Easton Ellis' American Psycho (1991) written at the age of 27, here is a brief bio: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Bret-Easton-Ellis.
  There was also a remake of Jack the Ripper two or three years ago, but I cannot remember the title.

  Anny 
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Jeff Newberry 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:08 AM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)


    Thanks....

    I think that I could use it.

    Jeff Newberry

    Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
      Orwell's "Shooting an Elephant" might figure in, in some odd, metaphorical way. 


    Jeff Newberry

    "Sometimes it's not so easy,
    especially when your only friend
    talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
    and you do just the same as him."
    --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend" 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Do you Yahoo!?
    Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 22 08:29:51 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:29:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
In-Reply-To: <bb.42a30307.2e3072d5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040722122951.74589.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com>

yes, but the committee's decision not to fund a press
is also a political decision (and I use political with
a small p).  I think that poetry has been hijacked by
academics and arts councils and taken away from the
people because these organisations realise fully the
liberatory effect poetry can have on the masses and
they sure as Hell don't want any liberation going on. 
Therefore the decision to fund a press that might
publish my poems can no longer exist because poetry
has no audience anymore and this is a direct
consequence of the policies of academic and
sub-literary mandarins who wish to make it
inaccessible and irrelevant.  But there was a time
when it was neither of these and what happened
inbetween to make it so?
Paul Murphy
--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/21/2004 2:49:04 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
> 
> > Rockingham Press have turned down a volume of my
> > poems not on the basis of merit but because they
> have
> > no grant funding from the Arts Council.  Does
> anyone
> > want to comment on this state of affairs, whenever
> a
> > commitee not the public says who's read and what
> goes?
> > best wishes,
> > 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the question, Paul.
> It seems to be a case of  a press letting an author
> down 
> lightly, who it would like to publish,  if funds
> were no object,
> but they usually are in the small press world.
> Unless I'm
> missing something, the Arts Council (committee)
> never
> made a decision other than not to fund Rockingham
> Press.
> Finnegan
> 



		
__________________________________
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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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From listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com  Mon Jul 19 17:30:10 2004
From: listadmin at wordtechcommunications.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:30:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New titles from WordTech Communications
Message-ID: <BD21B5A2.2DB%listadmin@wordtechcommunications.com>

WordTech Communications LLC has an exciting number of new poetry titles out.
Order online at the links provided with each book or send a check (add $5
for shipping and handling, payable to WordTech Communcications) to PO Box
541106, Cincinnati, OH 45254-1106.

---

ROTARY by Christina Pugh (winner of the Word Press First Book Prize)


The poems in Christina Pugh's ROTARY, winner of the 2003 Word Press First
Book Prize, display a fine-grained attention to the world's particulars that
prompts a slowing down of readerly perception until the object, the feeling,
the idea, is experienced in its full tactile presence. These are, in many
senses, sensational poems.


Christina Pugh is the author of GARDENING AT DUSK, a chapbook of poems
published by Wells College Press. She has received a Ruth Lilly Poetry
Fellowship from Poetry magazine, the Grolier Poetry Prize, the Associated
Writing Programs' INTRO Award in Poetry, a Whiting Fellowship for the
Humanities, and two nominations for a Pushcart Prize, among other honors.
Her poems have recently appeared in THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY, PLOUGHSHARES,
COLUMBIA: A JOURNAL OF LITERATURE AND ART, POETRY DAILY, and in the
anthology POETRY 180: A TURNING BACK TO POETRY. She holds degrees from
Wesleyan University, Harvard University, and Emerson College, and is
currently visiting assistant professor of English at Northwestern
University.

"If it is true that a good poem defines an emotion not found in any
dictionary, then Christina Pugh is an astute lexicographer of the
heart."?-Billy Collins

ISBN 1932339245, 80 pages, $17.00

Order by check or online at http://www.word-press.com/pugh.html

-----

SMALL KNOTS by Kelli Russell Agodon

SMALL KNOTS is a tender and terrifying collection of poems that maps the
progress of a disease, celebrates the family and life's daily small joys,
and meditates on what connects us to the world. In Kelli Russell Agodon's
carefully crafted lines,? the small knots are what bind us all, and cannot
be broken.


Kelli Russell Agodon is the author of GEOGRAPHY,?winner of the 2003 Floating
Bridge Press Chapbook Award.?She is?the recipient of two Artist Trust GAP
grants and?a two-time nominee for the Pushcart Prize.?Some of her poems have
appeared in the NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, SEATTLE REVIEW, CALYX, RATTAPALLAX,
PARNASSUS and on NPR's The Writer's Almanac with Garrison Keillor.
Currently, she is the Poetry Editor for the online journal MARGIN: EXPLORING
MODERN MAGICAL REALISM.?She has been a featured poet on the ABC News website
for National Poetry Month and?awarded a writing residency?from Soapstone
Writers Retreat in Oregon.?She lives in a small seaside community with her
husband and daughter.?To read more of her work or to contact the author,
visit her website at http://www.agodon.com.

"Agodon's debut?introduces?us to the wild beating of apple-hearts and?other
songs of the body--both blessed and betrayed. These are
necessary,?exacting?poems?that render?me stunned and happily spent--grateful
for the blossom and burst?I find on each page."--Aimee Nezhukumatathil

ISBN 1932339272, 88 pages, $17.00

Order by check or online at http://www.cherry-grove.com/agodon.html

-----

MORTAL MEANS by Kay Barnes

The lyric sequences in Kay Barnes' MORTAL MEANS capture human spiritual
longing in all its majesty and intimacy, working from the smallest painterly
detail to the broadest canvas of the heavens. This is a profoundly
accomplished first collection.

Born and raised in Oklahoma, Kay Cavanaugh Barnes lives in Dallas, Texas,
and Bridgton, Maine.? She has taught English at high schools in the Chicago
area, Loyola University in New Orleans, and Richland College in Dallas,
French at the University of Texas in Arlington, poetry writing at The
Writer's Garret and an AIDS counseling center in Dallas, and English as a
second language for Catholic Charities Immigration Counseling Services.
Barnes has also worked as a reporter for three weekly newspapers.? She
earned an M.A. in English from Marquette University, an M.A. in French from
Middlebury College, and an M.F.A. in Writing from Vermont College.? Her
poems have been published in POETRY, AMERICA, KALLIOPE, KANSAS QUARTERLY,
THE MIDWEST QUARTERLY, and other journals.

"With skill, power, and savoir faire, Kay Barnes's MORTAL MEANS brings to us
the rich brocades and gauzy afternoon light of Europe, reflected off the
glass of her own full-bodied, ruby-red, shimmering life.? These are slowly
made, well-wrought poems of deep passion made from the world for the inner
life."--Jack Myers

ISBN 1932339280, 80 pages, $17.00

Order by check or online at http://www.cherry-grove.com/barnes.html

-- 

Kevin Walzer, Ph.D.
Editor 
WordTech Communications - A New Paradigm of
Poetry 
http://www.wordtechcommunications.com


To unsubscribe from this list, send an e-mail to
unsubscribe_poetry at wordtechcommunications.com.





 



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jul 21 09:25:56 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:25:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
Message-ID: <40FE36A4.24188.7BAF89@localhost>

The Ghettoization of Poetry

A lot of people in mainstream working-class jobs really resent the 
highly educated -- and understandably, too. That education is 
evidence of wealth they don't have -- and won't have. They resent the 
lack of opportunity for themselves, and that the opportunity exists 
for others -- a powerful combination of resentments. Those 
resentments are not soothed by the privileged few who moan about how 
they are "ghettoized" by the mainstream, either. The natural question 
is, well, if it's so bad to be well-educated, if the life of the mind 
is so onerous, if you are so ghettoized, so  alienated by others, why 
not chuck it all and work at McDonald's, or as a file clerk, or learn 
auto mechanics, or the like -- why not, in short, get a real job?

To use terms such as "ghettoization" or "academic ghetto" or even 
"marginalization" to describe academia is to make a claim that the 
academics are disadvantaged in comparison with the mainstream working 
class. There is no reason to use such powerfully metaphorical 
language as "ghettoized" except to make the claim that one is 
disadvantaged. To call it "marginalized" is not as powerfully 
metaphorical, of course, and to that extent (if you'll forgive me) 
marginally better, but it's like saying that millionaires are 
marginalized from the paycheck-to-paycheck life -- which is to say 
they're not "marginalized" at all. To speak of academics as 
"marginalized" from the mainstream working class world is as 
ludicrous as describing a Hispanic mother of two with a 6th grade 
education and a job as a motel maid as being "ivory-towered" from the 
academic world. 

It seems to me that much of the claim for the academy as a ghetto 
within the larger society depends on an assumption that there is 
something in the larger society, in the non-intellectual life, in 
what academics call with ironic quotation marks "'the real world'", 
that is superior to the intellectual life, that there is something 
good and pure inhering in the non-intellectual life that the 
intellectual life doesn't have, and that attitude feeds right into 
the "those who can't do, teach" mentality that so many academics 
resent. 

Ghettos are non-volitional places. The difference between voluntary 
and non-volitional segregation is fundamental. Where segregation is 
imposed it is bad; where it is chosen it may still be bad, but it's 
silly to blame others for one's own choice. No one says to an 
intellectually talented child or adult that they must engage in the 
life of the mind or starve, that they must read Shakespeare, or write 
poems. The choice to pursue one's intellectual bent and live the life 
of the mind is a choice, after all. 

Neither members of the mainstream nor the academy can look at a child 
and despise it as good only for teaching Shakespeare to freshmen. 
There is no non-volitional physical difference that marks the 
intellectually-inclined out as nearly worthless to this or that 
culture. Those who claim the academy is "ghettoized" seem to be 
complaining about their advantages -- and there is little that is 
less attractive than the privileged whining about the burdens of 
their privileges. 

Within the context of the academy itself, though, where academy 
money, power, and prestige is meted out by academy folks to academy 
folks, to say that one discipline or field is ghettoized by the 
academy may be reasonable enough because it may be true that there 
are powerful forces within the aacademy that withhold money and other 
rewards from some programs, and deploy money and other rewards to 
other endeavors. That sort of thing may, it seems to me, be 
reasonably called "ghettoization" within the context of the academy --
 where the powerful within that context disadvantage the less 
powerful within that context -- but it's a very different thing from 
the notion of poets being "ghettoized" or "marginalized" in the 
larger society.

There is no conspiracy against poets by non-intellectuals in our 
society that has marginalized poetry and poets in that society.  
Poets and poetry are disregarded by most of the people most of the 
time for two reasons: first, poetry is a demanding craft, and, 
second, choices that poets themselves have made to make poetry less 
significant and important to most people most of the time.

Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say 
it, not what you say. As an illustration of this tenet, let's pretend 
for a moment that you have had the insight of the century, a profound 
thought about society, or politics, or money, or medicine, or 
engineering, or whatever that, after sober reflection and some 
careful analysis, appears to you to be literally world-changing in 
its significance and importance. Is it really your first thought "I 
must write a poem about this!"?  No -- of course not -- because that 
kind of thing is just not the realm of poetry, because such a thing 
is important for what it is, what it can do, how it can change the 
world -- not for how it is presented, how it is said. 

The marginalization of poetry, though, is not the result of society 
or some members of society deciding that poetry is "out" and TV is 
"in", or anything like that. Poetry is a demanding craft, and few 
people are poets, and few people read poetry, not because it is out 
of fashion, but because it is demanding. In order to read a poem you 
have to know an enormous amount of stuff, or you don't read the poem 
very well. And the first poems we read we don't read very well -- but 
for some of us there is something there that we dimly perceive, but 
perceive enough of that we persevere in trying to perceive it better. 
Good teachers help. But in the end it is the personal choice of the 
reader to pursue the difficulties inherent in mastering a rhetoric 
that drives each of us deeper into poetry appreciation -- and for 
some, into poetry.

I'm sure you know people, smart people, perceptive people, 
sympathetic and even empathetic people, who think that poetry in 
general and your fascination with it in particular is a complete 
waste of time and energy. Why bother with poetry when people are 
dying in useless wars and from preventable diseases? -- and dozens of 
other such questions.

Poetry is important to the people it's important to -- and there are 
very few of them in the world. But that doesn't mean poetry is "-
ized" by the rest of the world that is occupied with finding enough 
food or sex or shelter today, or with any of the innumerable other 
immediacies of life. Poetry can only be pursued and appreciated by 
people with the time and leisure to pursue and appreciate it. And to 
complain about the vicissitudes of that pursuit, while people starve 
and vomit and excrete themselves to death in the most appalling 
conditions imaginable all over the planet is to invite comparison 
with the most opaque of the "let them eat cake" set.

Isn't it just as, if not more, reasonable to say that mainstream 
society is marginalized from poetry? Poetry is an art and craft that 
takes time and energy and money and leisure to pursue and appreciate. 
It is the cold, hard necessities of their lives that marginalizes the 
majority of people from poetry, not the attitude of the majority that 
marginalizes poetry. The majority are indifferent to poetry -- but 
unless you believe that only what the majority values is valuable, 
it's silly to say that the indifference of the majority to poetry is 
a marginalization of poetry. 

And if you do believe that only what the majority values is valuable, 
what are you doing thinking about poetry? Why read or write poems? 
Why aren't you in TV, glossy magazines, advertising, or politics?




From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Jul 22 09:29:57 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:29:57 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
Message-ID: <55.5cb12766.2e311b55@aol.com>

from: READING AT RISK: A SURVEY OF LITERARY READING IN AMERICA, "Chapter 5: 
Summary and Conclusions" (NEA, June 2004):

"Poetry (read by 25 million adults) is about as popular as attendance at jazz 
performances or at classical music events" (29).

Poetry has no audience anymore? At what size does the poetry audience become 
significant? 

There's not a small (or large New York) press out there that wouldn't give 
its right arm and leg for .05% sales of that 25 million market for one of its 
titles.

The full NEA report, by the way is free and available at:

 http://www.nea.gov/pub/ResearchReports_chrono.html (pdf form or hard copy).

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN

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From: Paul Murphy <clitophon at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:29:51 -0700 (PDT)
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From kellogg at duke.edu  Thu Jul 22 09:42:18 2004
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:42:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question, too)
In-Reply-To: <20040721232642.83475.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040721232642.83475.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1090503738.40ffc43a5f3b3@webmail.duke.edu>

Jeff, 

Try the sociological databases rather than just MLA.  For classroom issues, try 
the CCCC database available at http://www.ibiblio.org/twtaylor/

The relationship between rhetoric and violence is as old as Aristotle. You 
might look at (for yourself, not your studnets) the chapter on the subject in 
James Crosswhite's "The Rhetoric of Reason."  See also Deborah Tannen's "The 
Argument Culture" for a different view.  I'm sure Tannen has something on media 
violence in there, but I haven't read her in a while. 

David

Quoting Jeff Newberry <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>:

> You all may be the wrong group to ask, but I'll try you anyway.  This isn't
> poetry related, so you can backchannel me at jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com if you
> want to answer.
>  
> I'm putting together a freshman composition course for the fall with violence
> in media as a theme.  We'll be looking at Gus Van Zant's *Elephant* as well
> as screening various news reports about recent violence in the mideast. 
> We'll look at some original news broadcasts of the Columbine massacre and
> look at some of Michael Moore's *Bowling for Columbine.*  The course will
> culminate with a reading of Truman Capote's *In Cold Blood.*  Right now, I'm
> trying to put together a kind of case book of essays and secondary sources
> that I can put on reserve in our campus library for students to access.  The
> problem is, I haven't had much luck in my searching.  I've found a few things
> through google, and I've located a couple of things in the MLA database.  My
> question:  can any recommend some good essays/secondary sources on either a)
> the novel *In Cold Blood* itself or b) explorations of the ethics underlying
> creative nonfiction or literary journalism?
>  
> My second question:  has anyone read Cornelius Eady's *Brutal Imagination?* 
> I think that the book raises some the questions I want to explore in the
> course.  For example, what are the ethical issues behind appropriating an
> episode of violence to tell a story or write a poem (or make a film or teach
> a class or . . . )?
>  
> Again--I know that not everyone here is an academic.  That's not the issue, I
> suppose.  I just that you would all be the group to ask.  If you have any
> suggestions for my proposed course, I'd love them, as well.
>  
> I wait for your responses (hoping . . . )
>  
> Thanks in advance,
>  
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> 
> Jeff Newberry
>  
> "Sometimes it's not so easy,
> especially when your only friend
> talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
> and you do just the same as him."
> --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
> 		
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!


David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637


From cc at opus0.com  Thu Jul 22 11:17:01 2004
From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:17:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham & language
In-Reply-To: <200407220952.i6M9q3Zq029888@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHEECCCPAA.cc@opus0.com>

That's CC not CE, thanks anyway Finnegan! 

> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:24:30 EDT
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jorie Graham & language

> In a message dated 7/21/2004 3:11:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> cc at opus0.com writes:
> 
> > in Sligo 
> 
> CE,,
> Even if Jorie G and the conference
> are less than you hoped for, you're
> in a favorable landscape and close 
> to the sacred source of WB Yeats. 
> Good travels and a lovely Irish farewell 
> that I've long forgotten the words to
> Finnegan




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 22 18:01:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:01:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In TS Eliot's long shadow 
Message-ID: <1e9.25a397c2.2e319357@aol.com>

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=entertainmentNews&story
ID=551764&section=news

----
Banker is Shakespeare of the City
Thu 22 July, 2004 11:35 
 
By Paul Majendie
 
LONDON (Reuters) - Mammon may rule in the gleaming towers of London's 
financial district but, amid all the high finance, there beats a tender, poetic heart.
 
By day, Benjie Fraser is managing director in London of the Bank of New 
York's pensions business. By night he is B.H. Fraser, chronicler of capitalism.
 
>From "A Good Sacking" to "Bonus Time," the British banker-poet has turned to 
verse to capture the soul of The City.
 
-- 
  
Some poems and such here?
 
http://www.bhfraser.com/pages/welcomePage.asp
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 22 17:57:43 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:57:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
Message-ID: <dc.fda5b19.2e319257@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:30:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
yes, but the committee's decision not to fund a press
is also a political decision (and I use political with
a small p).  I think that poetry has been hijacked by
academics and arts councils and taken away from the
people because these organisations realise fully the
liberatory effect poetry can have on the masses and
they sure as Hell don't want any liberation going on. 
Therefore the decision to fund a press that might
publish my poems can no longer exist because poetry
has no audience anymore and this is a direct
consequence of the policies of academic and
sub-literary mandarins who wish to make it
inaccessible and irrelevant.  But there was a time
when it was neither of these and what happened
inbetween to make it so?
Paul, I not certain you're being entirely fair. I see many 
private presses (without a college/university
sponsorship) pushing out books year after year.
And when one press runs down & dies out, a new two or
three presses spring up. The bar to publishing, or
being a publisher, has never been lower than it is now. 
Getting the books advertised, noticed/reviewed, distributed...
we'll that's still a problem for all but the most well-heeled 
of the literary presses. Whether this or that arts council
gives $10,000 to this or that small press is going to 
change very little in the poetry publishing world at large.

Rockingham is UK based, I see, so maybe the situation
is different over there, but in the US the university presses 
are many. They can claim actually to have taken up much 
of the slack after the major publishing houses merged and 
then purged much of the poetry from their lists. (The
quality of the poetry they publish, their openness to
outsiders, are valid questions but hard to generalize 
about.) Almost all of the larger independent literary presses 
(Copper Canyon, Boa, Gray Wolf, Sarabande, etc.) are 
401c3 non-profit corporations and are very dependent 
on both private and public granting sources. I don't see how
that can change when a poetry book will be lucky to 
sell 500 copies, and be something of poetry best-seller if
sells 2500 copies. The situation as a whole is that we
have thousands of poetry titles being published each year,
99% of them in very small editions.  

If one isn't among the many who are published each year,
then one should have the gumption to self-publish or subsidize
one's own publication. (It's strange that a riduculous stigma persists 
when it comes self-publishing.)  To read & sell those books 
hand to hand...don't forget to bring a pocketful of singles 
for making change. But I think we're tilting toward another 
round of "Can Poetry Matter?"...so I stop here.
Finnegan
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul 23 02:37:05 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:37:05 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
References: <dc.fda5b19.2e319257@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004201c4707f$79533430$74607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I just want to comment that I agree with James' comment. Instead of heading to the question: "Can poetry matter...?" one should consider every single case, "Does this poet have anything to say?". There are different publishing houses and each has a political tendency, thus if the decision of not publishing an author is political, the said author should knock on the opposite door, if _and again_ s/he considers her/his work worth being published.

Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rockingham


  In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:30:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
    yes, but the committee's decision not to fund a press
    is also a political decision (and I use political with
    a small p).  I think that poetry has been hijacked by
    academics and arts councils and taken away from the
    people because these organisations realise fully the
    liberatory effect poetry can have on the masses and
    they sure as Hell don't want any liberation going on. 
    Therefore the decision to fund a press that might
    publish my poems can no longer exist because poetry
    has no audience anymore and this is a direct
    consequence of the policies of academic and
    sub-literary mandarins who wish to make it
    inaccessible and irrelevant.  But there was a time
    when it was neither of these and what happened
    inbetween to make it so?
  Paul, I not certain you're being entirely fair. I see many 
  private presses (without a college/university
  sponsorship) pushing out books year after year.
  And when one press runs down & dies out, a new two or
  three presses spring up. The bar to publishing, or
  being a publisher, has never been lower than it is now. 
  Getting the books advertised, noticed/reviewed, distributed...
  we'll that's still a problem for all but the most well-heeled 
  of the literary presses. Whether this or that arts council
  gives $10,000 to this or that small press is going to 
  change very little in the poetry publishing world at large.

  Rockingham is UK based, I see, so maybe the situation
  is different over there, but in the US the university presses 
  are many. They can claim actually to have taken up much 
  of the slack after the major publishing houses merged and 
  then purged much of the poetry from their lists. (The
  quality of the poetry they publish, their openness to
  outsiders, are valid questions but hard to generalize 
  about.) Almost all of the larger independent literary presses 
  (Copper Canyon, Boa, Gray Wolf, Sarabande, etc.) are 
  401c3 non-profit corporations and are very dependent 
  on both private and public granting sources. I don't see how
  that can change when a poetry book will be lucky to 
  sell 500 copies, and be something of poetry best-seller if
  sells 2500 copies. The situation as a whole is that we
  have thousands of poetry titles being published each year,
  99% of them in very small editions.  

  If one isn't among the many who are published each year,
  then one should have the gumption to self-publish or subsidize
  one's own publication. (It's strange that a riduculous stigma persists 
  when it comes self-publishing.)  To read & sell those books 
  hand to hand...don't forget to bring a pocketful of singles 
  for making change. But I think we're tilting toward another 
  round of "Can Poetry Matter?"...so I stop here.
  Finnegan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 23 09:44:56 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem in July
Message-ID: <20040723134456.76870.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com>

It's not October, but today is my thirtieth birthday.  So, Happy Birthday to me.  I remember when I first read this poem by Dylan Thomas.  It reminded me of the little fishing village in northwest Florida where I grew up.  I promised myself when I discovered this poem (must be back when I was 24 or 25) that I would read this aloud over my morning coffee the day that I turned 30.  Well, this morning, I did.  I can only pray that in a year, my heart's truth will still be sung.
 
I wanted to share it with all of you, folks who seem to care about poetry as much as I do.
 
Thanks for the posts.
 
Jeff Newberry
 
 
 
Poem in October
Dylan Thomas

    It was my thirtieth year to heaven
Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
    And the mussel pooled and the heron
            Priested shore
        The morning beckon
With water praying and call of seagull and rook
And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
        Myself to set foot
            That second
In the still sleeping town and set forth.

    My birthday began with the water-
Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name
    Above the farms and the white horses
            And I rose
        In rainy autumn
And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
        Over the border
            And the gates
Of the town closed as the town awoke.

    A springful of larks in a rolling
Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
    Blackbirds and the sun of October
            Summery
        On the hill's shoulder,
Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
        To the rain wringing
            Wind blow cold
In the wood faraway under me.

    Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
    With its horns through mist and the castle
            Brown as owls
        But all the gardens
Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales
Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
        There could I marvel
            My birthday
Away but the weather turned around.

    It turned away from the blithe country
And down the other air and the blue altered sky
    Streamed again a wonder of summer
            With apples
        Pears and red currants
And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
        Through the parables
            Of sun light
And the legends of the green chapels

    And the twice told fields of infancy
That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
    These were the woods the river and sea
            Where a boy
        In the listening
Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
        And the mystery
            Sang alive
Still in the water and singingbirds.

    And there could I marvel my birthday
Away but the weather turned around. And the true
    Joy of the long dead child sang burning
            In the sun.
        It was my thirtieth
Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
        O may my heart's truth
            Still be sung
On this high hill in a year's turning.


Jeff Newberry
 
"Sometimes it's not so easy,
especially when your only friend
talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
and you do just the same as him."
--Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
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From paul at tbhinc.com  Fri Jul 23 10:11:49 2004
From: paul at tbhinc.com (Paul C. Howell)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:11:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry In TS Eliot's long shadow
In-Reply-To: <200407231344.i6NDi6YD028085@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200407231344.i6NDi6YD028085@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040723095656.01c1b528@tbhinc.com>

The piece below (from (JforJames at aol.com)) strikes me as a tidy summary of 
the debate.

Note that I am a businessman with an interest in poetry. (I know other such 
businessmen, but not many.) Children I know, aged 11, 9, 8, and 5 like 
poetry. They have no difficulty with poems some adults find difficult by 
Olsen, Ashbery and Stevens, or in French by Nelligen, Jammes or Saint-John 
Perse, but they don't tolerate older language like Donne and Shakespeare. 
Teens I know think poetry's for sissies, but not rock lyrics. In the German 
baroque period a lot of poetry was published; I don't know anyone who cares 
much about it (except Klopstock, Guenther, Claudius and Haller). Is 
American poetry publishing today largely self-indulgent? Do poetry 
publishers work for themselves, their readers, their funders, or whom?



>Banker is Shakespeare of the City
>Thu 22 July, 2004 11:35
>
>By Paul Majendie
>
>LONDON (Reuters) - Mammon may rule in the gleaming towers of London's
>financial district but, amid all the high finance, there beats a tender, 
>poetic heart.
>
>By day, Benjie Fraser is managing director in London of the Bank of New
>York's pensions business. By night he is B.H. Fraser, chronicler of 
>capitalism.
>
> >From "A Good Sacking" to "Bonus Time," the British banker-poet has 
> turned to
>verse to capture the soul of The City.
>
>--
>
>Some poems and such here???
>
>http://www.bhfraser.com/pages/welcomePage.asp
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>URL: 
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040722/8b93e5de/attachment-0001.html
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:57:43 EDT
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Message-ID: <dc.fda5b19.2e319257 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:30:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
>yes, but the committee's decision not to fund a press
>is also a political decision (and I use political with
>a small p).  I think that poetry has been hijacked by
>academics and arts councils and taken away from the
>people because these organisations realise fully the
>liberatory effect poetry can have on the masses and
>they sure as Hell don't want any liberation going on.
>Therefore the decision to fund a press that might
>publish my poems can no longer exist because poetry
>has no audience anymore and this is a direct
>consequence of the policies of academic and
>sub-literary mandarins who wish to make it
>inaccessible and irrelevant.  But there was a time
>when it was neither of these and what happened
>inbetween to make it so?
>Paul, I not certain you're being entirely fair. I see many
>private presses (without a college/university
>sponsorship) pushing out books year after year.
>And when one press runs down & dies out, a new two or
>three presses spring up. The bar to publishing, or
>being a publisher, has never been lower than it is now.
>Getting the books advertised, noticed/reviewed, distributed...
>we'll that's still a problem for all but the most well-heeled
>of the literary presses. Whether this or that arts council
>gives $10,000 to this or that small press is going to
>change very little in the poetry publishing world at large.
>
>Rockingham is UK based, I see, so maybe the situation
>is different over there, but in the US the university presses
>are many. They can claim actually to have taken up much
>of the slack after the major publishing houses merged and
>then purged much of the poetry from their lists. (The
>quality of the poetry they publish, their openness to
>outsiders, are valid questions but hard to generalize
>about.) Almost all of the larger independent literary presses
>(Copper Canyon, Boa, Gray Wolf, Sarabande, etc.) are
>401c3 non-profit corporations and are very dependent
>on both private and public granting sources. I don't see how
>that can change when a poetry book will be lucky to
>sell 500 copies, and be something of poetry best-seller if
>sells 2500 copies. The situation as a whole is that we
>have thousands of poetry titles being published each year,
>99% of them in very small editions.
>
>If one isn't among the many who are published each year,
>then one should have the gumption to self-publish or subsidize
>one's own publication. (It's strange that a riduculous stigma persists
>when it comes self-publishing.)  To read & sell those books
>hand to hand...don't forget to bring a pocketful of singles
>for making change. But I think we're tilting toward another
>round of "Can Poetry Matter?"...so I stop here.
>Finnegan




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul 23 10:33:18 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:33:18 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem in July
References: <20040723134456.76870.qmail@web52609.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00f801c470c1$ff821250$3f737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

H A P P Y     B I R T H D A Y !

I printed the poem out for me tomorrow, not blest 30 but 48, and happy to be here more than then.

Cheers, Anny
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 3:44 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem in July


  It's not October, but today is my thirtieth birthday.  So, Happy Birthday to me.  I remember when I first read this poem by Dylan Thomas.  It reminded me of the little fishing village in northwest Florida where I grew up.  I promised myself when I discovered this poem (must be back when I was 24 or 25) that I would read this aloud over my morning coffee the day that I turned 30.  Well, this morning, I did.  I can only pray that in a year, my heart's truth will still be sung.

  I wanted to share it with all of you, folks who seem to care about poetry as much as I do.

  Thanks for the posts.

  Jeff Newberry



  Poem in October
  Dylan Thomas

      It was my thirtieth year to heaven
  Woke to my hearing from harbour and neighbour wood
      And the mussel pooled and the heron
              Priested shore
          The morning beckon
  With water praying and call of seagull and rook
  And the knock of sailing boats on the net webbed wall
          Myself to set foot
              That second
  In the still sleeping town and set forth.

      My birthday began with the water-
  Birds and the birds of the winged trees flying my name
      Above the farms and the white horses
              And I rose
          In rainy autumn
  And walked abroad in a shower of all my days.
  High tide and the heron dived when I took the road
          Over the border
              And the gates
  Of the town closed as the town awoke.

      A springful of larks in a rolling
  Cloud and the roadside bushes brimming with whistling
      Blackbirds and the sun of October
              Summery
          On the hill's shoulder,
  Here were fond climates and sweet singers suddenly
  Come in the morning where I wandered and listened
          To the rain wringing
              Wind blow cold
  In the wood faraway under me.

      Pale rain over the dwindling harbour
  And over the sea wet church the size of a snail
    ! ;  With its horns through mist and the castle
              Brown as owls
          But all the gardens
  Of spring and summer were blooming in the tall tales
  Beyond the border and under the lark full cloud.
          There could I marvel
              My birthday
  Away but the weather turned around.

      It turned away from the blithe country
  And down the other air and the blue altered sky
      Streamed again a wonder of summer
              With apples
          Pears and red currants
  And I saw in the turning so clearly a child's
  Forgotten mornings when he walked with his mother
          Through the parables
              Of sun light
  And the legends of the green chapels

      And the twice told fields of infancy
  That his tears burned my cheeks and his heart moved in mine.
      These were the woods the river and sea
              Where a boy
          In the listening
  Summertime of the dead whispered the truth of his joy
  To the trees and the stones and the fish in the tide.
          And the mystery
              Sang alive
  Still in the water and singingbirds.

      And there could I marvel my birthday
  Away but the weather turned around. And the true
      Joy of the long dead child sang burning
              In the sun.
          It was my thirtieth
  Year to heaven stood there then in the summer noon
  Though the town below lay leaved with October blood.
          O may my heart's truth
              Still be sung
  On this high hill in a year's turning.


  Jeff Newberry

  "Sometimes it's not so easy,
  especially when your only friend
  talks, sees, looks and feels like you,
  and you do just the same as him."
  --Jimi Hendrix, "My Friend"


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 23 10:38:56 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:38:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
In-Reply-To: <004201c4707f$79533430$74607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <20040723143856.30103.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com>

thanks for the various comments on a subject which I
thought should at least be debated.  I'm not sure
where exactly I stand on this matter but decided to be
polemical, a thing which can do no harm.  I agree that
if a press rejects the work because it is vaguely
Modernist or Avante Garde in some other sense, or just
plain incomprehensible or the poet is known or wanted
or on the run - then this is all grist to the writer's
mill and, at the end of the day, there are many other
presses, tendencies, theories, webpages, sewn together
and painted poetry books a la William Blake.  Choose
your weapon or your poison, whatever.  PM
--- Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it> wrote:
> I just want to comment that I agree with James'
> comment. Instead of heading to the question: "Can
> poetry matter...?" one should consider every single
> case, "Does this poet have anything to say?". There
> are different publishing houses and each has a
> political tendency, thus if the decision of not
> publishing an author is political, the said author
> should knock on the opposite door, if _and again_
> s/he considers her/his work worth being published.
> 
> Anny
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: JforJames at aol.com 
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>   Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:57 PM
>   Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
> 
> 
>   In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:30:33 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time, clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
>     yes, but the committee's decision not to fund a
> press
>     is also a political decision (and I use
> political with
>     a small p).  I think that poetry has been
> hijacked by
>     academics and arts councils and taken away from
> the
>     people because these organisations realise fully
> the
>     liberatory effect poetry can have on the masses
> and
>     they sure as Hell don't want any liberation
> going on. 
>     Therefore the decision to fund a press that
> might
>     publish my poems can no longer exist because
> poetry
>     has no audience anymore and this is a direct
>     consequence of the policies of academic and
>     sub-literary mandarins who wish to make it
>     inaccessible and irrelevant.  But there was a
> time
>     when it was neither of these and what happened
>     inbetween to make it so?
>   Paul, I not certain you're being entirely fair. I
> see many 
>   private presses (without a college/university
>   sponsorship) pushing out books year after year.
>   And when one press runs down & dies out, a new two
> or
>   three presses spring up. The bar to publishing, or
>   being a publisher, has never been lower than it is
> now. 
>   Getting the books advertised, noticed/reviewed,
> distributed...
>   we'll that's still a problem for all but the most
> well-heeled 
>   of the literary presses. Whether this or that arts
> council
>   gives $10,000 to this or that small press is going
> to 
>   change very little in the poetry publishing world
> at large.
> 
>   Rockingham is UK based, I see, so maybe the
> situation
>   is different over there, but in the US the
> university presses 
>   are many. They can claim actually to have taken up
> much 
>   of the slack after the major publishing houses
> merged and 
>   then purged much of the poetry from their lists.
> (The
>   quality of the poetry they publish, their openness
> to
>   outsiders, are valid questions but hard to
> generalize 
>   about.) Almost all of the larger independent
> literary presses 
>   (Copper Canyon, Boa, Gray Wolf, Sarabande, etc.)
> are 
>   401c3 non-profit corporations and are very
> dependent 
>   on both private and public granting sources. I
> don't see how
>   that can change when a poetry book will be lucky
> to 
>   sell 500 copies, and be something of poetry
> best-seller if
>   sells 2500 copies. The situation as a whole is
> that we
>   have thousands of poetry titles being published
> each year,
>   99% of them in very small editions.  
> 
>   If one isn't among the many who are published each
> year,
>   then one should have the gumption to self-publish
> or subsidize
>   one's own publication. (It's strange that a
> riduculous stigma persists 
>   when it comes self-publishing.)  To read & sell
> those books 
>   hand to hand...don't forget to bring a pocketful
> of singles 
>   for making change. But I think we're tilting
> toward another 
>   round of "Can Poetry Matter?"...so I stop here.
>   Finnegan
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>   _______________________________________________
>   New-Poetry mailing list
>   New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>   http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



	
		
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From clitophon at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 23 10:52:26 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:52:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rockingham
In-Reply-To: <dc.fda5b19.2e319257@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040723145226.55802.qmail@web40404.mail.yahoo.com>

thanks for this:
can you send me the addresses of some of those US
presses?
I have self-published my work:
www.theengine.net
I'm also open for submissions for selected other
poets.  I'm very choosy and tend to like to publish
writers who like dialogue and friendship but not
necessarily cosy incestuous friendship although that's
sometimes good too.
--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:30:33 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time, 
> clitophon at yahoo.com writes:
> yes, but the committee's decision not to fund a
> press
> is also a political decision (and I use political
> with
> a small p).  I think that poetry has been hijacked
> by
> academics and arts councils and taken away from the
> people because these organisations realise fully the
> liberatory effect poetry can have on the masses and
> they sure as Hell don't want any liberation going
> on. 
> Therefore the decision to fund a press that might
> publish my poems can no longer exist because poetry
> has no audience anymore and this is a direct
> consequence of the policies of academic and
> sub-literary mandarins who wish to make it
> inaccessible and irrelevant.  But there was a time
> when it was neither of these and what happened
> inbetween to make it so?
> Paul, I not certain you're being entirely fair. I
> see many 
> private presses (without a college/university
> sponsorship) pushing out books year after year.
> And when one press runs down & dies out, a new two
> or
> three presses spring up. The bar to publishing, or
> being a publisher, has never been lower than it is
> now. 
> Getting the books advertised, noticed/reviewed,
> distributed...
> we'll that's still a problem for all but the most
> well-heeled 
> of the literary presses. Whether this or that arts
> council
> gives $10,000 to this or that small press is going
> to 
> change very little in the poetry publishing world at
> large.
> 
> Rockingham is UK based, I see, so maybe the
> situation
> is different over there, but in the US the
> university presses 
> are many. They can claim actually to have taken up
> much 
> of the slack after the major publishing houses
> merged and 
> then purged much of the poetry from their lists.
> (The
> quality of the poetry they publish, their openness
> to
> outsiders, are valid questions but hard to
> generalize 
> about.) Almost all of the larger independent
> literary presses 
> (Copper Canyon, Boa, Gray Wolf, Sarabande, etc.) are
> 
> 401c3 non-profit corporations and are very dependent
> 
> on both private and public granting sources. I don't
> see how
> that can change when a poetry book will be lucky to 
> sell 500 copies, and be something of poetry
> best-seller if
> sells 2500 copies. The situation as a whole is that
> we
> have thousands of poetry titles being published each
> year,
> 99% of them in very small editions.  
> 
> If one isn't among the many who are published each
> year,
> then one should have the gumption to self-publish or
> subsidize
> one's own publication. (It's strange that a
> riduculous stigma persists 
> when it comes self-publishing.)  To read & sell
> those books 
> hand to hand...don't forget to bring a pocketful of
> singles 
> for making change. But I think we're tilting toward
> another 
> round of "Can Poetry Matter?"...so I stop here.
> Finnegan
> > _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
__________________________________
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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From elemenope at icubed.com  Thu Jul 22 22:56:26 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:56:26 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question,
 too) (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <200407221721.i6MHLEZq032178@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200407221721.i6MHLEZq032178@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bd262d6b044b@[204.215.200.16]>

For a presentation of violence and betrayel, in particular, the life 
of the gunslinger and shootist, in the ways of our dark world, take a 
trip through William Burroughs' last three novels: _Cities of the Red 
Night_, The Place of Dead Roads_, and, _The Western Lands_.


R. D i l l o n
-- 


From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Jul 23 00:27:05 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:27:05 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry In TS Eliot's long shadow (Paul C. Howell)
In-Reply-To: <200407231451.i6NEpQYD028467@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200407231451.i6NEpQYD028467@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100302bd263a570d88@[204.215.201.153]>

TWO BUSINESSMEN: ONE BANKER, THE OTHER, A HORSE TRADER

Very Eliotic, quite.  Cravat, shaved cleanly, glassed eye, and all that.
Except, insofar, as Mr. Fraser, ginned up, ruminating, goes Bukowskian.
Dual ennui, London unfolding Los Angeles at night inching a distant dawn.
In bed, a pen at end of the reach, books, a page, lying, flat.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  R.  D I L L O N


>FALSTAFF IS ASKED TO LEAVE
>
>  	Strauss's four last songs
>qualifies my residency
>at Joe Chamberlain Hotel, Birmingham.
>The rooms being familiar,
>I bathe, prepare myself.
>Down the corridor
>towards the exit,
>wind instruments
>sound from other places.
>It is Vivaldi
>impossible
>I thought to get
>an organ in there.
>(The suite at the end
>of my floor
>has a
>personal visit
>from Faur?.)
>I have a vision:
>I am Prometheus
>suspended
>over London,
>given insights
>to the Thames
>lazy, morose,
>near to
>breaking point.
>This grandeur is interrupted
>by the noise next door.
>Sinking into my bed with
>gin as my protection,
>I realised
>how I got started
>was with you
>bright, confident,
>promised to Jacob.
>I became
>other people
>instead
>saw them grow,
>nourished by
>my laughter
>('I conquered
>a few
>at the stroke
>of midnight
>when the porter
>fell drunk').
>At the sound
>of the alarm,
>the television at my feet
>records?
>that we must
>all face
>death 'like
>Don Juan'
>trapped
>in a
>Midlands
>hotel,
>unable
>to pay
>the bill
>as September
>finishes
>and lifts arrive
>to carry us down
>beneath.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  B.  H.    F  R  A  S  E  R

this is a fact

in the company of fools
we relax upon
ordinary embankments,
enjoy bad food, cheap
drink,
mingle with the men and
ladies form
hell.
in the company of fools
we throw days away like
paper  napkins.

in this company
our music is loud and our
laughter
untrue.

we have nothing to lose
but ourselves.

join us.
we are now
almost
the entire
world.

God bless
us.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
- C H A R L E S   B U K O W S K I

-- 
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From jimbennett11 at btopenworld.com  Fri Jul 23 12:14:39 2004
From: jimbennett11 at btopenworld.com (Jim Bennett)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:14:39 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Kit
References: <20040723145226.55802.qmail@web40404.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c470d3$3a778be0$824e7ad5@FrodoBaggins>

The Poetry Kit - poetrykit.org - Accessed by over 2000 unique visitors every
day.

The Poetry Kit at http://www.poetrykit.org/ carries listings of;

  Poetry competitions
  One off poetry events
  Regular poetry events in many parts of the world
  Publishers around the world
  Poetry magazines around the world
  Internet radio poetry broadcasts
  Poetry sites
  Who's who
  Seminars
  Calls for papers
  Workshops
  Courses
  Poets on tour
  Organisations

  To keep our records and data base up to date we need information.  If you
know of anything which you feel should be listed at Poetry Kit but which has
been overlooked please tell us.   Frequently we are told of special events
which have been months in planning with just days before the actual event,
obviously a late listing is better than none but an early listing would be
of real benefit to both the event and Poetry Kit readers.  So if you are
planning, or know of, a festival, special event or tour, let us know as soon
as possible.

We intend introducing a Blog listing shortly so any information for that
would also be useful.

Together with our data base information we are also looking for poems and
articles for Poetry Kit Magazine, so any submissions would be welcomed and
carefully considered.

mail to; info at poetrykit.org

Jim Bennett
poetrykit.org

LINKS
___________________________________________________

Jim Bennett's new poetry collection "The Man Who Tried to Hug Clouds"
pub April 2004 by Bluechrome read about it or order from;
http://www.bluechrome.co.uk/

POETRY KIT - Voted Poetry Super-Highway best resource 2001
http://www.poetrykit.org/
PK On-line Poetry Workshop
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/9952/pklist.htm
JIM BENNETT - Publisher's site
http://jimbennett.port5.com/



From clitophon at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 24 05:02:50 2004
From: clitophon at yahoo.com (Paul Murphy)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Nonpoetry Question (and a poetry question,
	too) (Anny Ballardini)
In-Reply-To: <a05100300bd262d6b044b@[204.215.200.16]>
Message-ID: <20040724090250.22623.qmail@web40414.mail.yahoo.com>

I thought John Dillinger died in a gunfight but
apparantly he has re-appeared on this list or are you
the Richard Dillon listed as being off death row in
Indiana since 1984?  I just wanted to clarify, because
clarification is so important in this world we live in
now, this is a world of clarity.  By the way, can I
ask you which University you studied the dead
languages at?  Elemenope:

elemenope? is a JMS compliant messaging framework
written in Java. It allows one to easily create a
large scale multi-platform application to conduct
messaging or transaction processing. It abstracts away
all of the connectivity issues when dealing with or
designing such a project.

* elemenope uses Java Message Service [JMS] for
messaging. * elemenope currently utilizes both JNDI
connectors and IBM MQSeries [WebSphereMQ] connectors,
allowing the use of any JMS compliant Messaging
Oriented Middleware [MOM]. * elemenope has built-in
mainframe connectivity classes for use when connecting
to a mainframe running IBM MQSeries with the IMS
Adapter or IMS Bridge.

As of Release 2.0, elemenope? now allows the use of
JNDI connectors to utilize any JMS compliant Message
Oriented Middleware [MOM]. This includes SonicMQ,
JBossMQ, JORAM, OpenJMS, etc.

elemenope? has been in development since 1999. It and
some of its precursors are currently in production use
within several companies large and small.

Perhaps you can explain the words etymology?  By the
way am presently on my way to the Victoria and Albert
Museum in South Kensington, London to do some
sketching.  Sketching is a word with a gerund.  A
gerund is a word without a gerund.  Dillon is a word
without a gerund but with an escape clause or sanity
clause but then we're no where near Xmas.  How are
you?  
--- ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
wrote:
> For a presentation of violence and betrayel, in
> particular, the life 
> of the gunslinger and shootist, in the ways of our
> dark world, take a 
> trip through William Burroughs' last three novels:
> _Cities of the Red 
> Night_, The Place of Dead Roads_, and, _The Western
> Lands_.
> 
> 
> R. D i l l o n
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



		
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From halvard at gmail.com  Sun Jul 25 09:46:35 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:46:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Carlos Kleiber
Message-ID: <f160a12104072506461f4b6540@mail.gmail.com>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

July 25, 2004
The Conductor Who Could Not Tolerate Error
By HARVEY SACHS
 
CARLOS KLEIBER'S rehearsals for Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde" at La
Scala in Milan in the spring of 1978 were fraught and exhausting. The
opera had not been performed there for 13 seasons, and many younger
members of the orchestra had never played it.

Kleiber's demand for 17 full rehearsals had been met. But instead of
allowing the orchestra to read through substantial stretches of the
score at the first sessions and going over the details later, he
pounced on the inevitable errors from the first minutes of the first
rehearsal. The Scala musicians adored him, having performed other
operas with him during the two previous seasons, but in "Tristan"
players and conductor seemed at cross-purposes.

During a break, I was stretching my legs in a corridor when I saw
Kleiber walking toward me. (Through the intercession of a shared
friend, I was one of the lucky few he allowed to observe his
rehearsals.) Although I knew him only slightly, he asked, "Why do I
keep trying to conduct?" My jaw must have dropped, because he
continued: "I can't get them to understand what I want. I shouldn't be
conducting at all."

I began to make a tactful comment about the orchestra's unfamiliarity
with "Tristan"; he saw where I was heading and stopped me short. "I
know, I know," he said. "That's just the point. I can't bear to let
the errors go uncorrected. It's bigger than I am."

The production finally gelled, but not until the second or third performance.

Kleiber died on July 13 at 74, but in keeping with the mystery that
surrounded his later years, his death was announced only on Monday. He
was a tormented man, an almost terrifyingly gifted interpreter whose
self-dissatisfaction eventually took the form of self-laceration. The
legends about him made him seem almost psychotic, and one celebrated
performer who worked with him often and admired him greatly described
him as "deeply sick."

Armchair psychiatrists in the music world have speculated that
Kleiber's career, maybe his entire adult life, was based on a
deep-seated Oedipal need to surpass his father, the marvelous
Viennese-born conductor Erich Kleiber, in repertory the older man had
been closely associated with. Although there may be some truth here,
the fact is that both Kleibers amassed vast repertories early in their
careers.

Since Carlos Kleiber was notoriously, perhaps obsessively, secretive,
the true story of his psychological relationship to his father has not
yet emerged. What we do know is that he was born in 1930 in Berlin,
where his father was the revered music director of the state opera.
Carlos's mother, Ruth Goodrich, was American; she and Erich Kleiber
had met in Buenos Aires while she was working at the United States
Embassy and he was conducting at the Teatro Col?n.

The Kleibers left Germany in 1935, because Erich was opposed to the
Nazi regime's racism and antimodernism, and they eventually settled in
Argentina, where their son Karl became known as Carlos. The family was
peripatetic, and for a time after the war Carlos attended high school
in the Bronx.

Erich Kleiber, like many other musician parents, was leery of having
his son enter the family business: an especially daunting path for the
child of a famous conductor. But Carlos's passion for music and his
volcanic talent ultimately broke his father's resistance.

Kleiber gained most of his conducting experience in D?sseldorf, Zurich
and Munich from the late 1950's to the early 70's. His international
career took off during the mid-70's and stayed at its height through
the 80's. Overwhelming success greeted him everywhere, but at the same
time he began to limit his repertory to some 10 standard operas and
not many more symphonic works.

He attributed his attitude to laziness, but his maniacal perfectionism
and the sense of desolating frustration that overwhelmed him when his
goals were not met must have had something to do with his increasing
isolation. So, apparently, did his dedication to his young son and
daughter; he was determined to give them more attention than his
father had given him.

By the early 90's, Kleiber's appearances had become rare, and over the
next decade, they tailed off completely. The sense of loss at his
death is tempered by the fact that the music world essentially lost
him years ago.

Yet Kleiber was not eccentric in the way the reclusive pianist Glenn
Gould and the gurulike conductor Sergiu Celibidache were. His
interpretations were straightforward, never gimmicky or exaggerated,
neither experimental nor given to deconstruction. He was simply
consumed by the desire to come as close as he could to the composer's
original vision of a piece. The experiments, the deconstructing and
the reconstructing took place in his mind, as part of the process of
coming to grips with a work. If one were to try to reduce his quest to
a question, it would be: "What is this work?," not "What can I do with
this work?"

Kleiber's interpretations of even the most overplayed repertory ?
Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, "La Traviata" or "Die Fledermaus" ? gave
listeners the illusion that the works were new, that Kleiber himself
had never heard anyone else's interpretations of them and that he was
presenting something fresh and vital for their consideration and
delight.

As with major conductors of the past ? Wilhelm Furtw?ngler, Arturo
Toscanini, Bruno Walter, Otto Klemperer and, of course, Erich Kleiber
? so with Carlos Kleiber: the music's intellectual, emotional and
purely visceral charge almost always came across at the most intense
and deepest level imaginable, whether or not one agreed with a
specific interpretation. Listeners often felt that they were hearing
not an interpretation but the work itself, the text with no extraneous
commentary. Although this, too, was an illusion, only the greatest
interpretive artists have been able to create it.

But unlike those conductors, born in the 19th century, Kleiber seemed
more vulnerable than commanding when he stood before an orchestra. I
remember him stopping the Scala orchestra when he was having trouble
achieving a certain subtle nuance in one of the "Rosenkavalier"
waltzes and saying, sadly: "My father always told me: `Do whatever you
want, but don't try to conduct waltzes. They're the hardest things in
the world.' Unfortunately, I didn't listen to him." The orchestra felt
sorry for him, concentrated hard and played the difficult passage
beautifully.

Kleiber also had a modern, unrestrained approach to the purely
physical aspect of conducting. Yet his gestures were calculated not
for their effect on the audience or to mime emotions but simply to
draw the best possible results from singers and players ? to help them
give their best.

His way with words was often amusing. Once, when he was rehearsing the
Scala orchestra in the slithery, insinuating passage that leads into
Iago's soliloquy on jealousy in "Otello," he said: "You're playing
this too beautifully. A little bad taste, please!" Again, the
orchestra immediately grasped what he wanted and did it.

Despite his exceptionally high musical standards and the stubbornness
with which he insisted on reaching his goals, Kleiber was
fundamentally an affable man who would go to extraordinary lengths to
avoid hurting the feelings of others. But when he felt that stage
directors, players or singers were thwarting his wishes out of ill
will or sluggishness, he could make their lives miserable.

At one opera performance, again at La Scala, he stormed from the
podium onto the stage behind the closed curtain at intermission and
angrily told the lead baritone that the two would never perform
together again. This so enraged the baritone that a nearby tenor had
to keep him from physically assaulting Kleiber.

Kleiber seemed to enjoy life. Fascinating young women (his wife was a
Slovenian ballerina) and fast sports cars were particular passions.
But he had no interest in making money by piling up as many
engagements as possible.

"Died after a long illness," the newspapers reported, a phrase
generally presumed to mean cancer. But perhaps it was the longer
illness of perfectionism ? an exceptionally uncommon virus ? that
really killed Kleiber. In the end, he acted on his own judgment ? "I
shouldn't be conducting at all" ? by disappearing, leaving the music
world a poorer place.

--

Harvey Sachs, a music historian, has written and edited several books
on Toscanini, most recently ``The Letters of Arturo Toscanini.''


-- 
Hal                Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Jul 25 13:29:40 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:29:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
In-Reply-To: <40FE36A4.24188.7BAF89@localhost>
References: <40FE36A4.24188.7BAF89@localhost>
Message-ID: <359BD59C-DE60-11D8-979F-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Marcus Bales wrote (at New Poetry)

> Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say
> it, not what you say.

Marcus,

Can I  quote this and perhaps some of the supporting material at my 
blog ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501)?

Best,

Michael



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jul 25 20:40:15 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:40:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Kit
Message-ID: <c4.1170810b.2e35acef@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/23/2004 12:36:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jimbennett11 at btopenworld.com writes:

> The Poetry Kit - poetrykit.org - Accessed by over 2000 unique visitors 
> every
> day.
> 
> The Poetry Kit at http://www.poetrykit.org/ carries listings of;
> 
>  Poetry competitions
>  One off poetry events
>  Regular poetry events in many parts of the world
>  Publishers around the world
>  Poetry magazines around the world
>  Internet radio poetry broadcasts
>  Poetry sites
>  Who's who
>  Seminars
>  Calls for papers
>  Workshops
>  Courses
>  Poets on tour
>  Organisations
> 
>  To keep our records and data base up to date we need information.  If you
> know of anything which you feel should be listed at Poetry Kit but which has
> been overlooked please tell us.   Frequently we are told of special events
> which have been months in planning with just days before the actual event,
> obviously a late listing is better than none but an early listing would be
> of real benefit to both the event and Poetry Kit readers.  So if you are
> planning, or know of, a festival, special event or tour, let us know as soon
> as possible.
> 
> We intend introducing a Blog listing shortly so any information for that
> would also be useful.
> 
> Together with our data base information we are also looking for poems and
> articles for Poetry Kit Magazine, so any submissions would be welcomed and
> carefully considered.
> 
> mail to; info at poetrykit.org
> 
> Jim Bennett
> poetrykit.org
> 
> LINKS
> ___________________________________________________
> 

Jim Bennett, 
this is really a case of "giving something
back"...to poetry...I wish you luck
with this "Poetry Central" website  
you've taken up after the death of Ted Slade.
Finnegan
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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Jul 25 20:47:25 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:47:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Salt Publishing announces
Message-ID: <8b.10826a7f.2e35ae9d@aol.com>

Date:    Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:30:46 +0100
From:    Chris Hamilton-Emery <cemery at SALTPUBLISHING.COM>
Subject: Salt Publishing

Salt is pleased to announce the publication of:

FORREST GANDER
"The Blue Rock Collection"
ISBN 1844710459
=A38.95
http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710459.htm
BUY NOW http://www.saltpublishing.com/shop/proddetail.php?prod=3D1844710459

JOHN MATTHIAS
"New Selected Poems"
ISBN 1844710408
=A317.95
http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710408.htm
BUY NOW http://www.saltpublishing.com/shop/proddetail.php?prod=3D1844710408

NATHANIEL TARN
"Recollections of Being"
ISBN 1844710556
=A38.95
http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710556.htm
BUY NOW http://www.saltpublishing.com/shop/proddetail.php?prod=3D1844710556


Best wishes
Chris
_____________________________________________________

Chris Hamilton-Emery
Editor=20
Salt Publishing=20
PO Box 937, Great Wilbraham PDO
Cambridge, CB1 5JX, UK

tel: +44 (0)1223 882220 (direct and voicemail)
fax: +44 (0)1223 882260
mobile: 07799 054889
email: cemery at saltpublishing.com
web: http://www.saltpublishing.com
____________________________________________________

**OUT NOW! Maxine Chernoff "Evolution of the Bridge" ISBN 1844710386
http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710386.htm
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From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Jul 26 07:25:11 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:25:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c47303$3bb6fa40$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Getting ready (or not)
for The Sophist

Ron Silliman - forthcoming readings
Seattle, NYC, SF,
Lawrence Kansas,
Philly & DC

What happens when you read poetry
for the very first time?

English as percussion -
On Clark Coolidge's ear

Blogging & public intellectuals -
The New York Review of Books:
Stillborn again

What is the role of expectation in art?

An MFA student asks
where to begin

Where is Laurable?

A note about Blogger

What of Stein & Zukofsky
in Robert Duncan's model
on an older poet?

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jul 26 10:00:21 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:00:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Adiodi's Blog
In-Reply-To: <000001c47303$3bb6fa40$6501a8c0@Dell>
References: <000001c47303$3bb6fa40$6501a8c0@Dell>
Message-ID: <41050E75.5000904@ix.netcom.com>

Recent *dyspepsia* produced the following commentaries:

Researching The Narrative Epic and Weight Gain

Was Eliot Packin' At The Harvard Lectures?

Lohengrin: A Memoir of Rilke's Dog's Patron

Digital Chloroform: The Chloroformalists Speak Out!

An MFA student asks "To whom do I make out the check?"

Hoelderlin Wins An Emmy!

What Happens When You Drink And Read Poetry While Driving On The Jersey 
Turnpike At 3:00AM---
The creative process behind my poem "DUI: What Happens When You Drink 
And Read Poetry While Driving On The Jersey Turnpike At 3:00 AM"

What is the role of expectoration in art? Should poets chew?

Pound: Fascist or Chi'n Legalist?

Where is Laurable's aftershave?

Yaso's forthcoming concerts:

Riyadh, Belgrade, Caracas, Akron, Beaver Falls, the St. Paul Mega-Mall, 
Def Poetry Jam at Gallaudet College

http//:yasowhat.blurg.spot






>  
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 26 11:06:54 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:06:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mightier than the pen
Message-ID: <27.5dd6f866.2e36780e@aol.com>

Sword-wielding poet to do community service
 
26/07/2004 - 12:00:19 PM
 
A Dublin poet who went "berserk" and attacked his neighbours with a sword 
because he thought they were talking about him has to do 240 hours of community 
service in lieu of a two year sentence.
 
Christopher Cox, aged 48, author of A Crumlin Lad, of North Circular Road, 
pleaded guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to assaulting his then 
neighbours Mr Paul O?Neill and Ms Lorraine Dowling on July 22, 2002 at North Frederick 
Street.
 
Judge Desmond Hogan noted that the probation report he ordered on Cox at the 
last hearing on April 29 was positive and, therefore, would affirm the 
community service order rather than send him to prison.
 
Garda Niall Hodgins told prosecuting counsel, Ms Marie Torrens BL, that Cox, 
was living then in accommodation provided for the homeless on North Frederick 
St by the Eastern Health Board.
 
Cox kicked in the door of his neighbours? flat in the early hours of the 
morning, wielding a sword. He first hit Mr O?Neill across the head with his fist 
before hitting him with the sword. He "whipped" him with the weapon several 
times, leaving red welts on Mr O?Neill?s body.
 
Mr O?Neill was extremely afraid, and thought Cox was going to kill him. Ms 
Dowling tried to hold back Cox?s sword but he twisted her wrist and hit her once.
 
Garda? were summoned by the owner of the building and Cox threw his sword out 
of the window when he heard the approaching patrol car?s siren. He offered no 
explanation for his behaviour but said he thought he heard his victims 
talking about him in their next door flat.
 
Mr Vincent Heneghan BL, counsel for Cox, said his client was a father of 
eight children who came from an extremely difficult background. He first came to 
the attention of garda? at the age of six and had his first conviction before 
he was 10 years old.
 
He said that at the time of the incident Cox was living in "homeless 
accommodation with paper thin walls" and he "had just snapped" that particular night. 
 
Mr Heneghan said Cox, who had spent most of his life in institutions, had not 
received the education he was due and in trying to turn his life around had 
gone to Trinity College and attempted to enroll in a pre-university course.
 
He had been told by Trinity College he should get his Junior certificate 
before he could enroll there and he had done so. 
 
Mr Heneghan said Cox had since discovered an ability to express himself 
through arts and had published a book entitled A Crumlin Lad. He was currently 
doing a photography course.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Jul 26 11:48:25 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:48:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
In-Reply-To: <359BD59C-DE60-11D8-979F-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <40FE36A4.24188.7BAF89@localhost>
Message-ID: <4104EF89.22336.FC75C4@localhost>

> On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Marcus Bales wrote (at New Poetry)
> > Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say
> > it, not what you say.

On 25 Jul 2004 at 13:29, Michael Snider wrote:
> Can I  quote this and perhaps some of the supporting material at my
> blog ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501)?

Sure, as long as you post it after Wednesday, July 28, 2004. It will 
be published at http://www.coolcleveland.com Tuesday at midnight, and 
you can use it after that.

Marcus






From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Jul 26 12:02:14 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:02:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
Message-ID: <10635669.1090857734825.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, July 26, 2004, at 11:51AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>> On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Marcus Bales wrote (at New Poetry)
>> > Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say
>> > it, not what you say.
>
>On 25 Jul 2004 at 13:29, Michael Snider wrote:
>> Can I  quote this and perhaps some of the supporting material at my
>> blog ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501)?
>
>Sure, as long as you post it after Wednesday, July 28, 2004. It will 
>be published at http://www.coolcleveland.com Tuesday at midnight, and 
>you can use it after that.
>
>Marcus

Thanks, Marcus. I'll wait for that. Here's what I posted in the meantime (slightly edited) --I hope it's interesting for all list members, whether they agree or not.


I've been thinking a lot about Jonathan Mayhew's assertion ( http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/2004/07/scattered-notes-armstrong-imposes-his.html ) last Monday that "human nature" is an ideological construct and about Henry Gould's post (http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_hgpoetics_archive.html#109032810880285245 ) last Tuesday on the difference between Modernist/post-modernist/avant garde approaches to form and those of at least some of the New Formalists or metrists in general. At the time I wrote what probably seemed like a snippy comment at HG Poetics, saying that Henry is more comfortable with metaphysics than I am. I apologize for that apparent tone, and now I realize that that's not really the issue anyway. Before I explain what I think the issue is, let me say that I do not in any way speak for the New Formalists. Most of them don't know who I am, and I've never spoken about any of these things with any who do know me except Fred Turner, and that was thirty years ago, when he and I both had very different notions about poetry and philosophy than either of us have now. 

It's ironic, possibly tragic, that some artists and some philosophers lost their nerve and began to deny the possibility of anything but arbitrary reference between human intellection and the world at precisely the time when it began to be possible to explore the actual nature of that relationship, when physics and biology began, for the first time, to shine light onto the foundations of our existence in ways which did not depend on the individual or cultural history of the man or woman holding the flashlight: "Everything is relative" is a bizarre misunderstanding of Einstein's work, which showed that observers form any arbitrary inertial frame could reach identical conclusions about the motions of the physical systems being studied ? and it certainly doesn't matter whether a particular observer is a 60-year-old female atheist at Stanford University in California or a 25-year-old male Sunni Moslem at the University of Lampang in Indonesia. Certainly that light reveals a strange world, often counter to our intuitions, but that is nothing new. Though a misquote, "Credo, quia absurdum" is so commonly cited that it reveals a deep divide between matters of faith and our ordinary perception of the world;  Aquinas believed we are made in God's image, but that certainly didn't for him entail complete understanding of the mind of God. 

What is new is that biology, and in particular recent work in evolutionary psychology, explains the gulf between our everyday perception and our conceptions of the underlying reality. "She's God and you're not" doesn't tell us why we're pretty darned good at negotiating those aspects of the world which matter to survival and reproduction but indifferent or blind to things at non-human scales of space or time. But in evolutionary terms, it simply doesn't matter that a leopard is mostly empty space. What matters is avoiding being eaten. Some elementary math is good for that, and therefore some counting isn't too hard for us or for a number of other animals. Partial differentiation of systems of non-linear equations is pretty tough. 

And what matters for poetry in all that is that the new sciences do not invalidate our intuitive understanding of the non-human world or of each other's actions. In fact, they provide a strong argument for expecting that intuitive understanding to be correct most of the time in the ways that matter to our ordinary lives, and even shed some light on how and why we make the mistakes we do. More importantly, understanding language to be part of our evolved toolkit supports our natural belief that our speech refers to that part of the real world that matters to us. 

It's quite remarkable, in fact. For the first time, our deepest conceptions of the world support our ordinary understanding even as they show its limits. That's bad news for the School of Phlogiston, for the children of Jorie, for the Oulippeans, and for post-modern theory in general. Disruption of ordinary language doesn't jolt us out of our ordinary perception: unless it's clear that some kind of game is being played, it merely convinces most of us that the speaker is crazy or incompetent. (Even in Zen, "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.") If there is a game, the rules have to be clear enough to be grasped quickly but complex enough to sustain interest, and, unlike what we expect of poetry, we don't normally expect games to apply outside their artificial worlds (game theory in economics and psychology has little to do with the games we play for fun). 

But though most of us want poems to be more than self-referential toys, a poem is not its paraphrasable sense, nor an experiment, nor a way of thinking or feeling. It's a way of saying something about the world in such a manner that other people find it memorable and moving. Meter can be a powerful tool to achieve those ends, though hardly the only tool available. What but pride, prejudice, or mistaken theory could persuade a poet never to use it? 

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 26 12:54:51 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:54:51 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] double-scam?
Message-ID: <4105375A.5C996DBC@earthlink.net>

Got two of these this a.m. and I suspect they and their attachment -
which I did not open - are the real scammers.  But, I'd be interested to
hear if anyone on the lists I subscribe to received spam message
purportedly from me.

- Jim

> Dear user jvcervantes at earthlink.net,
> 
> We have received reports that your account was used to send a huge amount of spam messages during
> this week.
> Probably, your computer was compromised and now runs a trojaned proxy server.
> 
> Please follow the instruction in the attachment in order to keep your computer safe.
> 
> Best regards,
> earthlink.net user support team.


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Jul 26 13:08:45 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:08:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Summer Issue of PoetryMagazine.com     
Message-ID: <127.467c4ff6.2e36949d@aol.com>

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:40:10 -0700
From:    Andrena Zawinski <andrenaz at EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Summer Issue of PoetryMagazine.com
 
Dear Poets and Poetry Lovers,
 
The Summer issue of http://www.poetrymagazine.com is up and running.
This issue showcases Featured Poets Maggie Anderson, Ursula K. Le Guin,
Jim Natal, and Howard Schwartz -- fine poets all, providing a richness
of beauty and vision in their poems.
 
Have a good read. And pass it on!
 
Andrena Zawinski
Features Editor
 
It is not the language of the painters
but the language of nature to which
one has to listen.
--Vincent van Gogh
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 26 13:14:29 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:14:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
References: <10635669.1090857734825.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <001201c47334$042cb930$42737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you Michael I haven't read anything this interesting in a while.

By the following assumption:

> It's ironic, possibly tragic, that some artists and some philosophers lost
their nerve and began to deny the possibility of anything but arbitrary
reference between human intellection and the world at precisely the time
when it began to be possible to explore the actual nature of that
relationship, when physics and biology began, for the first time, to shine
light onto the foundations of our existence in ways which did not depend on
the individual or cultural history of the man or woman holding the
flashlight:

you shows a positivity which speaks more of faith than of rationality. And
opens _possibilities_ which for some have long been buried.
Take care, Anny


From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 6:02 PM


>
> On Monday, July 26, 2004, at 11:51AM, Marcus Bales
<marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Marcus Bales wrote (at New Poetry)
> >> > Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say
> >> > it, not what you say.
> >
> >On 25 Jul 2004 at 13:29, Michael Snider wrote:
> >> Can I  quote this and perhaps some of the supporting material at my
> >> blog ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501)?
> >
> >Sure, as long as you post it after Wednesday, July 28, 2004. It will
> >be published at http://www.coolcleveland.com Tuesday at midnight, and
> >you can use it after that.
> >
> >Marcus
>
> Thanks, Marcus. I'll wait for that. Here's what I posted in the meantime
(slightly edited) --I hope it's interesting for all list members, whether
they agree or not.
>
>
> I've been thinking a lot about Jonathan Mayhew's assertion (
http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/2004/07/scattered-notes-armstrong-imposes-his.html )
last Monday that "human nature" is an ideological construct and about Henry
Gould's post
(http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_hgpoetics_archive.html#10903281088
0285245 ) last Tuesday on the difference between
Modernist/post-modernist/avant garde approaches to form and those of at
least some of the New Formalists or metrists in general. At the time I wrote
what probably seemed like a snippy comment at HG Poetics, saying that Henry
is more comfortable with metaphysics than I am. I apologize for that
apparent tone, and now I realize that that's not really the issue anyway.
Before I explain what I think the issue is, let me say that I do not in any
way speak for the New Formalists. Most of them don't know who I am, and I've
never spoken about any of these things with any who do know me except Fred
Turner, and that was thirty ye!
> ars ago, when he and I both had very different notions about poetry and
philosophy than either of us have now.
>
> It's ironic, possibly tragic, that some artists and some philosophers lost
their nerve and began to deny the possibility of anything but arbitrary
reference between human intellection and the world at precisely the time
when it began to be possible to explore the actual nature of that
relationship, when physics and biology began, for the first time, to shine
light onto the foundations of our existence in ways which did not depend on
the individual or cultural history of the man or woman holding the
flashlight: "Everything is relative" is a bizarre misunderstanding of
Einstein's work, which showed that observers form any arbitrary inertial
frame could reach identical conclusions about the motions of the physical
systems being studied - and it certainly doesn't matter whether a particular
observer is a 60-year-old female atheist at Stanford University in
California or a 25-year-old male Sunni Moslem at the University of Lampang
in Indonesia. Certainly that light reveals a stra!
> nge world, often counter to our intuitions, but that is nothing new.
Though a misquote, "Credo, quia absurdum" is so commonly cited that it
reveals a deep divide between matters of faith and our ordinary perception
of the world;  Aquinas believed we are made in God's image, but that
certainly didn't for him entail complete understanding of the mind of God.
>
> What is new is that biology, and in particular recent work in evolutionary
psychology, explains the gulf between our everyday perception and our
conceptions of the underlying reality. "She's God and you're not" doesn't
tell us why we're pretty darned good at negotiating those aspects of the
world which matter to survival and reproduction but indifferent or blind to
things at non-human scales of space or time. But in evolutionary terms, it
simply doesn't matter that a leopard is mostly empty space. What matters is
avoiding being eaten. Some elementary math is good for that, and therefore
some counting isn't too hard for us or for a number of other animals.
Partial differentiation of systems of non-linear equations is pretty tough.
>
> And what matters for poetry in all that is that the new sciences do not
invalidate our intuitive understanding of the non-human world or of each
other's actions. In fact, they provide a strong argument for expecting that
intuitive understanding to be correct most of the time in the ways that
matter to our ordinary lives, and even shed some light on how and why we
make the mistakes we do. More importantly, understanding language to be part
of our evolved toolkit supports our natural belief that our speech refers to
that part of the real world that matters to us.
>
> It's quite remarkable, in fact. For the first time, our deepest
conceptions of the world support our ordinary understanding even as they
show its limits. That's bad news for the School of Phlogiston, for the
children of Jorie, for the Oulippeans, and for post-modern theory in
general. Disruption of ordinary language doesn't jolt us out of our ordinary
perception: unless it's clear that some kind of game is being played, it
merely convinces most of us that the speaker is crazy or incompetent. (Even
in Zen, "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After
enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.") If there is a game, the rules ha
ve to be clear enough to be grasped quickly but complex enough to sustain
interest, and, unlike what we expect of poetry, we don't normally expect
games to apply outside their artificial worlds (game theory in economics and
psychology has little to do with the games we play for fun).
>
> But though most of us want poems to be more than self-referential toys, a
poem is not its paraphrasable sense, nor an experiment, nor a way of
thinking or feeling. It's a way of saying something about the world in such
a manner that other people find it memorable and moving. Meter can be a
powerful tool to achieve those ends, though hardly the only tool available.
What but pride, prejudice, or mistaken theory could persuade a poet never to
use it?
>
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Jul 26 13:17:16 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:17:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] double-scam?
In-Reply-To: <4105375A.5C996DBC@earthlink.net>
References: <4105375A.5C996DBC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <f160a12104072610174e9f6344@mail.gmail.com>

I get those from time to time, Jim, and they're spam scams. When
in doubt go to the Earthlink homepage and you'll find a link there
somewhere about such messages.

Hal

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:54:51 -0700, James Cervantes
<jvcervantes at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Got two of these this a.m. and I suspect they and their attachment -
> which I did not open - are the real scammers.  But, I'd be interested to
> hear if anyone on the lists I subscribe to received spam message
> purportedly from me.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> > Dear user jvcervantes at earthlink.net,
> >
> > We have received reports that your account was used to send a huge amount of spam messages during
> > this week.
> > Probably, your computer was compromised and now runs a trojaned proxy server.
> >
> > Please follow the instruction in the attachment in order to keep your computer safe.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > earthlink.net user support team.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


-- 
Hal                Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 26 13:24:47 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:24:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
References: <10635669.1090857734825.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c47335$75a90a90$2aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Meter can be a powerful tool to achieve those ends, though hardly the only
tool available. What but pride, prejudice, or mistaken theory could persuade
a poet never to use it?
>
He has other tools he prefers and does better with?

Visiophors (visual images that act as metaphors for verbal images in poems)
are also a powerful tool.  Should I ask what but pride, prejudice, or
mistaken theory could persuade a poet never to use them?

Two kinds of poets only annoy me in this area: those who personally forsake
meter AND believe everyone else should, too; and those who always use it in
their poetry and believe everyone else ought to, as well.

--Bob G.




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Jul 26 06:32:21 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:32:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
In-Reply-To: <10635669.1090857734825.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BD2A47E5.6BDE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>


                        A Lesson in Hermeneutics

 

 

 

In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground

Until a sentry gives a chattering bark,

Which in the simple vervet lexicon

Means snake, and connotes evil, death and dark.

Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound

That translates in our own more complex tongue

To hawk or eagle circling for prey,

And sends the monkeys scampering.  Either way,

The monkeys must take action--jump or flee

Across the ground or to a sheltering tree.

Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak,

Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning

And prove all urgent chattering oblique,

A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak

Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening,

Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak.



Paul Lake


In other words, Michael, I agree with your assessment below.

On 7/26/04 11:02 AM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:

> 
> On Monday, July 26, 2004, at 11:51AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>
> wrote:
> 
>>> On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Marcus Bales wrote (at New Poetry)
>>>> Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say
>>>> it, not what you say.
>> 
>> On 25 Jul 2004 at 13:29, Michael Snider wrote:
>>> Can I  quote this and perhaps some of the supporting material at my
>>> blog ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501)?
>> 
>> Sure, as long as you post it after Wednesday, July 28, 2004. It will
>> be published at http://www.coolcleveland.com Tuesday at midnight, and
>> you can use it after that.
>> 
>> Marcus
> 
> Thanks, Marcus. I'll wait for that. Here's what I posted in the meantime
> (slightly edited) --I hope it's interesting for all list members, whether they
> agree or not.
> 
> 
> I've been thinking a lot about Jonathan Mayhew's assertion (
> http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/2004/07/scattered-notes-armstrong-imposes-h
> is.html ) last Monday that "human nature" is an ideological construct and
> about Henry Gould's post
> (http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_hgpoetics_archive.html#1090328108802
> 85245 ) last Tuesday on the difference between Modernist/post-modernist/avant
> garde approaches to form and those of at least some of the New Formalists or
> metrists in general. At the time I wrote what probably seemed like a snippy
> comment at HG Poetics, saying that Henry is more comfortable with metaphysics
> than I am. I apologize for that apparent tone, and now I realize that that's
> not really the issue anyway. Before I explain what I think the issue is, let
> me say that I do not in any way speak for the New Formalists. Most of them
> don't know who I am, and I've never spoken about any of these things with any
> who do know me except Fred Turner, and that was thirty ye!
> ars ago, when he and I both had very different notions about poetry and
> philosophy than either of us have now.
> 
> It's ironic, possibly tragic, that some artists and some philosophers lost
> their nerve and began to deny the possibility of anything but arbitrary
> reference between human intellection and the world at precisely the time when
> it began to be possible to explore the actual nature of that relationship,
> when physics and biology began, for the first time, to shine light onto the
> foundations of our existence in ways which did not depend on the individual or
> cultural history of the man or woman holding the flashlight: "Everything is
> relative" is a bizarre misunderstanding of Einstein's work, which showed that
> observers form any arbitrary inertial frame could reach identical conclusions
> about the motions of the physical systems being studied ? and it certainly
> doesn't matter whether a particular observer is a 60-year-old female atheist
> at Stanford University in California or a 25-year-old male Sunni Moslem at the
> University of Lampang in Indonesia. Certainly that light reveals a stra!
> nge world, often counter to our intuitions, but that is nothing new. Though a
> misquote, "Credo, quia absurdum" is so commonly cited that it reveals a deep
> divide between matters of faith and our ordinary perception of the world;
> Aquinas believed we are made in God's image, but that certainly didn't for him
> entail complete understanding of the mind of God.
> 
> What is new is that biology, and in particular recent work in evolutionary
> psychology, explains the gulf between our everyday perception and our
> conceptions of the underlying reality. "She's God and you're not" doesn't tell
> us why we're pretty darned good at negotiating those aspects of the world
> which matter to survival and reproduction but indifferent or blind to things
> at non-human scales of space or time. But in evolutionary terms, it simply
> doesn't matter that a leopard is mostly empty space. What matters is avoiding
> being eaten. Some elementary math is good for that, and therefore some
> counting isn't too hard for us or for a number of other animals. Partial
> differentiation of systems of non-linear equations is pretty tough.
> 
> And what matters for poetry in all that is that the new sciences do not
> invalidate our intuitive understanding of the non-human world or of each
> other's actions. In fact, they provide a strong argument for expecting that
> intuitive understanding to be correct most of the time in the ways that matter
> to our ordinary lives, and even shed some light on how and why we make the
> mistakes we do. More importantly, understanding language to be part of our
> evolved toolkit supports our natural belief that our speech refers to that
> part of the real world that matters to us.
> 
> It's quite remarkable, in fact. For the first time, our deepest conceptions of
> the world support our ordinary understanding even as they show its limits.
> That's bad news for the School of Phlogiston, for the children of Jorie, for
> the Oulippeans, and for post-modern theory in general. Disruption of ordinary
> language doesn't jolt us out of our ordinary perception: unless it's clear
> that some kind of game is being played, it merely convinces most of us that
> the speaker is crazy or incompetent. (Even in Zen, "Before enlightenment, chop
> wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.") If
> there is a game, the rules have to be clear enough to be grasped quickly but
> complex enough to sustain interest, and, unlike what we expect of poetry, we
> don't normally expect games to apply outside their artificial worlds (game
> theory in economics and psychology has little to do with the games we play for
> fun). 
> 
> But though most of us want poems to be more than self-referential toys, a poem
> is not its paraphrasable sense, nor an experiment, nor a way of thinking or
> feeling. It's a way of saying something about the world in such a manner that
> other people find it memorable and moving. Meter can be a powerful tool to
> achieve those ends, though hardly the only tool available. What but pride,
> prejudice, or mistaken theory could persuade a poet never to use it?
> 
> -----
> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Jul 26 14:09:27 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:09:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] double-scam?
References: <4105375A.5C996DBC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004101c4733b$b182caa0$7e0d9942@Helen>

Were you asking for my bank account number so you could deposit 10 billion
dollars because I'm such a nice person or were you telling me I won a South
African lottery for a billion?

h
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: "cafe-blue" <CAFE-BLUE at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; "crewrt-l"
<crewrt-l at interversity.org>; "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 12:54 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] double-scam?


> Got two of these this a.m. and I suspect they and their attachment -
> which I did not open - are the real scammers.  But, I'd be interested to
> hear if anyone on the lists I subscribe to received spam message
> purportedly from me.
>
> - Jim
>
> > Dear user jvcervantes at earthlink.net,
> >
> > We have received reports that your account was used to send a huge
amount of spam messages during
> > this week.
> > Probably, your computer was compromised and now runs a trojaned proxy
server.
> >
> > Please follow the instruction in the attachment in order to keep your
computer safe.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > earthlink.net user support team.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Jul 26 14:53:35 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:53:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <003101c47341$db17e020$42737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Dear All,

 

it is time for the latest update of the Poet's Corner featuring the following Poets:

 

Roa Armando Vial

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=110

 

Jeff Harrison

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=111

 

Martin Stannard

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=112

 

Barry Spacks

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=113

 

Jim Rovira

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=114

 

Osvaldo Francisco Barletta

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=115

 

Beverly Matherne

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=116

 

Andrew Burke

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=117

 

Geraldine Monk

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=118

 

 

________________________________

 

 

Under Poets on Poets:

 

Karin Boye introduced and translated from Swedish by Michael Peverett:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=109

 

 

________________________________

 

 

Further additions:

 

Rayn Roberts' Buddhist Collection: The Fires of Spring in pdf. format 

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=574

 

 

New poems by Larry Jaffe:

 

Onlyness

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=586

 

Wordful (Dedicated to Pablo Neruda)

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=587

 

Chasing Rainbows

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=588

 

fissures

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=589

 

 

by Birgitta Jonsdottir:

 

(untitled)

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=610

 

I do not know anything

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=611

 

Oracles

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=612

 

The bone man

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=613

 

Ghost Talk

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=614

 

 

by Barry Alpert:

 

Von Trier Idiots

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=666

 

Real End Great War

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=667

 

Night Train

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=668

 

Mother Joan of the Angels

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=669

 

Serene Intensity

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=670

 

 

by Jon Corelis:

 

Parable

http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=671

 

 

________________________________

 

 

 

The main index of all featured poets can be found at:

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content

 

To all my warmest thanks for your remarkable commitment, 

best

 

 Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

the
crime - crushing
Criminologist 
Sherlock Jr. / Buster Keaton

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 26 17:54:36 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:54:36 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] double-scam?
References: <4105375A.5C996DBC@earthlink.net>
	<f160a12104072610174e9f6344@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41057D9B.6A363836@earthlink.net>

Yeah.  I forward them to fraud at earthlink.net, which gives them enough to
start tracking down the perp.

- Jim, from his ownest ghetto

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> I get those from time to time, Jim, and they're spam scams. When
> in doubt go to the Earthlink homepage and you'll find a link there
> somewhere about such messages.
> 
> Hal
> 
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:54:51 -0700, James Cervantes
> <jvcervantes at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Got two of these this a.m. and I suspect they and their attachment -
> > which I did not open - are the real scammers.  But, I'd be interested to
> > hear if anyone on the lists I subscribe to received spam message
> > purportedly from me.
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> > > Dear user jvcervantes at earthlink.net,
> > >
> > > We have received reports that your account was used to send a huge amount of spam messages during
> > > this week.
> > > Probably, your computer was compromised and now runs a trojaned proxy server.
> > >
> > > Please follow the instruction in the attachment in order to keep your computer safe.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > earthlink.net user support team.
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> --
> Hal                Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> halvard at gmail.com
> halvard at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 26 17:58:09 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:58:09 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
References: <BD2A47E5.6BDE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <41057E70.2ED7C20D@earthlink.net>

Oh gad.  I misread that as "velvet monkeys" and was instantly
transported to a velveteen forest pulsing with neon-green moss.  Alas,
it was Herman's new ticks.

- Jim

Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>                         A Lesson in Hermeneutics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground
> 
> Until a sentry gives a chattering bark,
> 
> Which in the simple vervet lexicon
> 
> Means snake, and connotes evil, death and dark.
> 
> Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound
> 
> That translates in our own more complex tongue
> 
> To hawk or eagle circling for prey,
> 
> And sends the monkeys scampering.  Either way,
> 
> The monkeys must take action--jump or flee
> 
> Across the ground or to a sheltering tree.
> 
> Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak,
> 
> Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning
> 
> And prove all urgent chattering oblique,
> 
> A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak
> 
> Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening,
> 
> Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak.
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> In other words, Michael, I agree with your assessment below.
> 
> On 7/26/04 11:02 AM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Monday, July 26, 2004, at 11:51AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>> On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Marcus Bales wrote (at New Poetry)
> >>>> Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say
> >>>> it, not what you say.
> >>
> >> On 25 Jul 2004 at 13:29, Michael Snider wrote:
> >>> Can I  quote this and perhaps some of the supporting material at my
> >>> blog ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501)?
> >>
> >> Sure, as long as you post it after Wednesday, July 28, 2004. It will
> >> be published at http://www.coolcleveland.com Tuesday at midnight, and
> >> you can use it after that.
> >>
> >> Marcus
> >
> > Thanks, Marcus. I'll wait for that. Here's what I posted in the meantime
> > (slightly edited) --I hope it's interesting for all list members, whether they
> > agree or not.
> >
> >
> > I've been thinking a lot about Jonathan Mayhew's assertion (
> > http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/2004/07/scattered-notes-armstrong-imposes-h
> > is.html ) last Monday that "human nature" is an ideological construct and
> > about Henry Gould's post
> > (http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_hgpoetics_archive.html#1090328108802
> > 85245 ) last Tuesday on the difference between Modernist/post-modernist/avant
> > garde approaches to form and those of at least some of the New Formalists or
> > metrists in general. At the time I wrote what probably seemed like a snippy
> > comment at HG Poetics, saying that Henry is more comfortable with metaphysics
> > than I am. I apologize for that apparent tone, and now I realize that that's
> > not really the issue anyway. Before I explain what I think the issue is, let
> > me say that I do not in any way speak for the New Formalists. Most of them
> > don't know who I am, and I've never spoken about any of these things with any
> > who do know me except Fred Turner, and that was thirty ye!
> > ars ago, when he and I both had very different notions about poetry and
> > philosophy than either of us have now.
> >
> > It's ironic, possibly tragic, that some artists and some philosophers lost
> > their nerve and began to deny the possibility of anything but arbitrary
> > reference between human intellection and the world at precisely the time when
> > it began to be possible to explore the actual nature of that relationship,
> > when physics and biology began, for the first time, to shine light onto the
> > foundations of our existence in ways which did not depend on the individual or
> > cultural history of the man or woman holding the flashlight: "Everything is
> > relative" is a bizarre misunderstanding of Einstein's work, which showed that
> > observers form any arbitrary inertial frame could reach identical conclusions
> > about the motions of the physical systems being studied ? and it certainly
> > doesn't matter whether a particular observer is a 60-year-old female atheist
> > at Stanford University in California or a 25-year-old male Sunni Moslem at the
> > University of Lampang in Indonesia. Certainly that light reveals a stra!
> > nge world, often counter to our intuitions, but that is nothing new. Though a
> > misquote, "Credo, quia absurdum" is so commonly cited that it reveals a deep
> > divide between matters of faith and our ordinary perception of the world;
> > Aquinas believed we are made in God's image, but that certainly didn't for him
> > entail complete understanding of the mind of God.
> >
> > What is new is that biology, and in particular recent work in evolutionary
> > psychology, explains the gulf between our everyday perception and our
> > conceptions of the underlying reality. "She's God and you're not" doesn't tell
> > us why we're pretty darned good at negotiating those aspects of the world
> > which matter to survival and reproduction but indifferent or blind to things
> > at non-human scales of space or time. But in evolutionary terms, it simply
> > doesn't matter that a leopard is mostly empty space. What matters is avoiding
> > being eaten. Some elementary math is good for that, and therefore some
> > counting isn't too hard for us or for a number of other animals. Partial
> > differentiation of systems of non-linear equations is pretty tough.
> >
> > And what matters for poetry in all that is that the new sciences do not
> > invalidate our intuitive understanding of the non-human world or of each
> > other's actions. In fact, they provide a strong argument for expecting that
> > intuitive understanding to be correct most of the time in the ways that matter
> > to our ordinary lives, and even shed some light on how and why we make the
> > mistakes we do. More importantly, understanding language to be part of our
> > evolved toolkit supports our natural belief that our speech refers to that
> > part of the real world that matters to us.
> >
> > It's quite remarkable, in fact. For the first time, our deepest conceptions of
> > the world support our ordinary understanding even as they show its limits.
> > That's bad news for the School of Phlogiston, for the children of Jorie, for
> > the Oulippeans, and for post-modern theory in general. Disruption of ordinary
> > language doesn't jolt us out of our ordinary perception: unless it's clear
> > that some kind of game is being played, it merely convinces most of us that
> > the speaker is crazy or incompetent. (Even in Zen, "Before enlightenment, chop
> > wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.") If
> > there is a game, the rules have to be clear enough to be grasped quickly but
> > complex enough to sustain interest, and, unlike what we expect of poetry, we
> > don't normally expect games to apply outside their artificial worlds (game
> > theory in economics and psychology has little to do with the games we play for
> > fun).
> >
> > But though most of us want poems to be more than self-referential toys, a poem
> > is not its paraphrasable sense, nor an experiment, nor a way of thinking or
> > feeling. It's a way of saying something about the world in such a manner that
> > other people find it memorable and moving. Meter can be a powerful tool to
> > achieve those ends, though hardly the only tool available. What but pride,
> > prejudice, or mistaken theory could persuade a poet never to use it?
> >
> > -----
> > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
> > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > ---
> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >
> >
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Jul 26 18:19:34 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:19:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
In-Reply-To: <BD2A47E5.6BDE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BD2A47E5.6BDE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <DFC31FE7-DF51-11D8-979F-000393C29586@mac.com>


On Jul 26, 2004, at 6:32 AM, Paul Lake wrote:

>
>                         A Lesson in Hermeneutics
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground
>
> Until a sentry gives a chattering bark,
>
> Which in the simple vervet lexicon
>
> Means snake, and connotes evil, death and dark.
>
> Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound
>
> That translates in our own more complex tongue
>
> To hawk or eagle circling for prey,
>
> And sends the monkeys scampering.  Either way,
>
> The monkeys must take action--jump or flee
>
> Across the ground or to a sheltering tree.
>
> Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak,
>
> Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning
>
> And prove all urgent chattering oblique,
>
> A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak
>
> Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening,
>
> Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak.
>
>
>
> Paul Lake
>
>

Wonderful!



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Jul 26 20:25:36 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:25:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
References: <BD2A47E5.6BDE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	<DFC31FE7-DF51-11D8-979F-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <017f01c47370$3ec7cf30$2aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I'm no fan of hermeneutics, but I tend to think that eventually one of those
hermeneutic monkeys escaped the predator and went off to found the human
species, or some species in between his old one and ours that could
reflect on the meaning of language.

> >                         A Lesson in Hermeneutics
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground
> >
> > Until a sentry gives a chattering bark,
> >
> > Which in the simple vervet lexicon
> >
> > Means snake, and connotes evil, death and dark.
> >
> > Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound
> >
> > That translates in our own more complex tongue
> >
> > To hawk or eagle circling for prey,
> >
> > And sends the monkeys scampering.  Either way,
> >
> > The monkeys must take action--jump or flee
> >
> > Across the ground or to a sheltering tree.
> >
> > Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak,
> >
> > Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning
> >
> > And prove all urgent chattering oblique,
> >
> > A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak
> >
> > Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening,
> >
> > Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak.
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul Lake
> >
> >
>
> Wonderful!
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From schroesd at adelphia.net  Mon Jul 26 22:26:08 2004
From: schroesd at adelphia.net (Steven D. Schroeder)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:26:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Eleventh Muse
References: <200407261547.i6QFl7YC015205@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <002e01c47381$13d4b8e0$130e4044@STEVECOMPUTER>

Hello, all:

I'm pleased to announce that I'm the new editor of The Eleventh Muse, the
nationally recognized annual publication of the Poetry West organization.
Submission guidelines and information on the journal are available at
http://www.poetrywest.org/muse.htm, with more data to be added soon as the
2004 edition gets published. We are also seeking submissions for the 2005
edition (we're shifting the production to the winter months).

Please submit a set of three to five original, unpublished poems (100 lines
or less), and a brief biography (100 words or less) appropriate for
contributors' notes to the following address:

The Eleventh Muse
Poetry West
PO Box 2413
Colorado Springs, Colorado 80901

The deadline for a given year's issue is December 1, but submissions are
accepted at all times

If possible, include an e-mail address for response to save paper and
postage. Otherwise, please include a self-addressed, stamped envelope for
replies. We should respond within one to three months.

Simultaneous submissions are fine, but please notify us ASAP if your work is
accepted elsewhere.

Given the diversity of views represented on this list, I feel I should note
that we will consider any style and subject matter. Thanks for your time,
and I look forward to making this journal a good representation of the
diverse and high-quality poetry available today.

Steven D. Schroeder



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Jul 27 12:38:00 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:38:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Are you a Literature Abuser? 
Message-ID: <b9.435e22b7.2e37dee8@aol.com>

Are you a Literature Abuser? 
 
 
Take this test and find out! How many of these apply to you?-- 
 
I have read fiction when I was depressed, or to cheer myself up. 
 
I have gone on reading binges of an entire book or more in a day. 
 
I read rapidly, often 'gulping' chapters. 
 
I have sometimes read early in the morning or before work. 
 
I have hidden books in different places to sneak a chapter without being
seen. 
 
Sometimes I avoid friends or family obligations in order to read novels.
 
Sometimes I re-write film or television dialog as the characters speak.
 
I am unable to enjoy myself with others unless there is a book nearby.
 
At a party, I will often slip off unnoticed to read. 
 
Reading has made me seek haunts and companions which I would otherwise
avoid. 
 
I have neglected personal hygiene or household chores until I have
finished a novel. 
 
I have spent money meant for necessities on books instead. (how can this
be wrong?) 
 
I have attempted to check out more library books than permitted. 
 
Most of my friends are heavy fiction readers. 
 
I have sometimes passed out from a night of heavy reading. 
 
I have suffered 'blackouts' or memory loss from a bout of reading. 
 
I have wept, become angry or irrational because of something I read.
 
I have sometimes wished I did not read so much. 
 
Sometimes I think my reading is out of control. 
 
 
 
 
If you answered 'yes' to four or more of these questions, you may be a
literature abuser. Affirmative responses to seven or more indicates a
serious problem. 
 
Once a relatively rare disorder, Literature Abuse, or LA, has risen to
new levels due to the accessibility of higher education and increased
college enrollment since the end of the Second World War. The number of
literature abusers is currently at record levels. 
 
 
Social Costs Of Literary Abuse 
 
Abusers become withdrawn, uninterested in society or normal
relationships. They fantasize, creating alternative worlds to occupy, to
the neglect of friends and family. In severe cases they develop bad
posture from reading in awkward positions or carrying heavy book bags. In
the worst instances, they become cranky reference librarians in small
towns. 
 
Excessive reading during pregnancy is perhaps the number one cause of
moral deformity among the children of English professors, teachers of
English and creative writing. Known as Fetal Fiction Syndrome, this
disease also leaves its victims prone to a lifetime of nearsightedness,
daydreaming and emotional instability. 
 
 
Heredity 
 
Recent Harvard studies have established that heredity plays a
considerable role in determining whether a person will become an abuser
of literature. Most abusers have at least one parent who abused
literature, often beginning at an early age and progressing into
adulthood. Many spouses of an abuser become abusers themselves.
 
 
Other Predisposing Factors 
 
Fathers or mothers who are English teachers, professors, or heavy fiction
readers; parents who do not encourage children to play games, participate
in healthy sports, or watch television in the evening. 
 
 
Prevention 
 
Pre-marital screening and counseling, referral to adoption agencies in
order to break the chain of abuse. English teachers in particular should
seek partners active in other fields. Children should be encouraged to
seek physical activity and to avoid isolation and morbid introspection.
 
 
Decline And Fall: The English Major 
 
Within the sordid world of literature abuse, the lowest circle belongs to
those sufferers who have thrown their lives and hopes away to study
literature in our colleges. Parents should look for signs that their
children are taking the wrong path -- don't expect your teenager to
approach you and say, &quot;I can't stop reading Spenser.&quot; By the
time you visit her dorm room and find the secret stash of the Paris
Review, it may already be too late. 
 
 
What to do if you suspect your child is becoming an English major:
 
- Talk to your child in a loving way. Show your concern. Let her know you
won't abandon her -- but that you aren't spending a hundred grand to put
her through Stanford so she can clerk at Waldenbooks, either. But
remember that she may not be able to make a decision without help;
perhaps she has just finished Madame Bovary and is dying of arsenic
poisoning. 
 
- Face the issue: Tell her what you know, and how: &quot;I found this
book in your purse. How long has this been going on?&quot; Ask the hard
question -- Who is this Count Vronsky? 
 
- Show her another way. Move the television set into her room. Introduce
her to frat boys. 
 
- Do what you have to do. Tear up her library card. Make her stop signing
her letters as 'Emma.' Force her to take a math class, or minor in
Spanish. Transfer her to a Florida college. 
 
 
You may be dealing with a life-threatening problem if one or more of the
following applies: 
 
- She can tell you how and when Thomas Chatterton died. 
 
- She names one or more of her cats after a Romantic poet. 
 
- Next to her bed is a picture of: Lord Byron, Virginia Woolf, Faulkner
or any scene from the Lake District. 
 
Most important, remember, you are not alone. To seek help for yourself or
someone you love, contact the nearest chapter of the American Literature
Abuse Society, or look under ALAS in your telephone directory.
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Jul 27 13:06:53 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:06:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Are you a Literature Abuser? 
References: <b9.435e22b7.2e37dee8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c473fc$1df89640$d8607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

ALAS, this is a good one! Au revoir ? tout-le-monde,
Anny
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 6:38 PM


  Are you a Literature Abuser? 

   

   

  Take this test and find out! How many of these apply to you?-- 

   

  I have read fiction when I was depressed, or to cheer myself up. 

   

  I have gone on reading binges of an entire book or more in a day. 

   

  I read rapidly, often 'gulping' chapters. 

   

  I have sometimes read early in the morning or before work. 

   

  I have hidden books in different places to sneak a chapter without being

  seen. 

   

  Sometimes I avoid friends or family obligations in order to read novels.

   

  Sometimes I re-write film or television dialog as the characters speak.

   

  I am unable to enjoy myself with others unless there is a book nearby.

   

  At a party, I will often slip off unnoticed to read. 

   

  Reading has made me seek haunts and companions which I would otherwise

  avoid. 

   

  I have neglected personal hygiene or household chores until I have

  finished a novel. 

   

  I have spent money meant for necessities on books instead. (how can this

  be wrong?) 

   

  I have attempted to check out more library books than permitted. 

   

  Most of my friends are heavy fiction readers. 

   

  I have sometimes passed out from a night of heavy reading. 

   

  I have suffered 'blackouts' or memory loss from a bout of reading. 

   

  I have wept, become angry or irrational because of something I read.

   

  I have sometimes wished I did not read so much. 

   

  Sometimes I think my reading is out of control. 

   

   

   

   

  If you answered 'yes' to four or more of these questions, you may be a

  literature abuser. Affirmative responses to seven or more indicates a

  serious problem. 

   

  Once a relatively rare disorder, Literature Abuse, or LA, has risen to

  new levels due to the accessibility of higher education and increased

  college enrollment since the end of the Second World War. The number of

  literature abusers is currently at record levels. 

   

   

  Social Costs Of Literary Abuse 

   

  Abusers become withdrawn, uninterested in society or normal

  relationships. They fantasize, creating alternative worlds to occupy, to

  the neglect of friends and family. In severe cases they develop bad

  posture from reading in awkward positions or carrying heavy book bags. In

  the worst instances, they become cranky reference librarians in small

  towns. 

   

  Excessive reading during pregnancy is perhaps the number one cause of

  moral deformity among the children of English professors, teachers of

  English and creative writing. Known as Fetal Fiction Syndrome, this

  disease also leaves its victims prone to a lifetime of nearsightedness,

  daydreaming and emotional instability. 

   

   

  Heredity 

   

  Recent Harvard studies have established that heredity plays a

  considerable role in determining whether a person will become an abuser

  of literature. Most abusers have at least one parent who abused

  literature, often beginning at an early age and progressing into

  adulthood. Many spouses of an abuser become abusers themselves.

   

   

  Other Predisposing Factors 

   

  Fathers or mothers who are English teachers, professors, or heavy fiction

  readers; parents who do not encourage children to play games, participate

  in healthy sports, or watch television in the evening. 

   

   

  Prevention 

   

  Pre-marital screening and counseling, referral to adoption agencies in

  order to break the chain of abuse. English teachers in particular should

  seek partners active in other fields. Children should be encouraged to

  seek physical activity and to avoid isolation and morbid introspection.

   

   

  Decline And Fall: The English Major 

   

  Within the sordid world of literature abuse, the lowest circle belongs to

  those sufferers who have thrown their lives and hopes away to study

  literature in our colleges. Parents should look for signs that their

  children are taking the wrong path -- don't expect your teenager to

  approach you and say, &quot;I can't stop reading Spenser.&quot; By the

  time you visit her dorm room and find the secret stash of the Paris

  Review, it may already be too late. 

   

   

  What to do if you suspect your child is becoming an English major:

   

  - Talk to your child in a loving way. Show your concern. Let her know you

  won't abandon her -- but that you aren't spending a hundred grand to put

  her through Stanford so she can clerk at Waldenbooks, either. But

  remember that she may not be able to make a decision without help;

  perhaps she has just finished Madame Bovary and is dying of arsenic

  poisoning. 

   

  - Face the issue: Tell her what you know, and how: &quot;I found this

  book in your purse. How long has this been going on?&quot; Ask the hard

  question -- Who is this Count Vronsky? 

   

  - Show her another way. Move the television set into her room. Introduce

  her to frat boys. 

   

  - Do what you have to do. Tear up her library card. Make her stop signing

  her letters as 'Emma.' Force her to take a math class, or minor in

  Spanish. Transfer her to a Florida college. 

   

   

  You may be dealing with a life-threatening problem if one or more of the

  following applies: 

   

  - She can tell you how and when Thomas Chatterton died. 

   

  - She names one or more of her cats after a Romantic poet. 

   

  - Next to her bed is a picture of: Lord Byron, Virginia Woolf, Faulkner

  or any scene from the Lake District. 

   

  Most important, remember, you are not alone. To seek help for yourself or

  someone you love, contact the nearest chapter of the American Literature

  Abuse Society, or look under ALAS in your telephone directory. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Jul 27 07:07:37 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:07:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
In-Reply-To: <41057E70.2ED7C20D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BD2BA1A9.6BF4%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

On 7/26/04 4:58 PM, "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Oh gad.  I misread that as "velvet monkeys" and was instantly
> transported to a velveteen forest pulsing with neon-green moss.  Alas,
> it was Herman's new ticks.
> 
> - Jim

I dunno, Jim. I sorta like your surreal Disney version, too.

Paul
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
>> 
>>                         A Lesson in Hermeneutics
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In Kenya, vervet monkeys take the ground
>> 
>> Until a sentry gives a chattering bark,
>> 
>> Which in the simple vervet lexicon
>> 
>> Means snake, and connotes evil, death and dark.
>> 
>> Or else the sentry makes a guttural sound
>> 
>> That translates in our own more complex tongue
>> 
>> To hawk or eagle circling for prey,
>> 
>> And sends the monkeys scampering.  Either way,
>> 
>> The monkeys must take action--jump or flee
>> 
>> Across the ground or to a sheltering tree.
>> 
>> Should one, instead, hearing a sentry speak,
>> 
>> Decide to deconstruct the fellow's meaning
>> 
>> And prove all urgent chattering oblique,
>> 
>> A python's fang or hawk's cruel curving beak
>> 
>> Will punctuate the monkey's idle preening,
>> 
>> Ending his dissertation in mid-squeak.
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> In other words, Michael, I agree with your assessment below.
>> 
>> On 7/26/04 11:02 AM, "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Monday, July 26, 2004, at 11:51AM, Marcus Bales
>>> <marcus at designerglass.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 AM, Marcus Bales wrote (at New Poetry)
>>>>>> Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say
>>>>>> it, not what you say.
>>>> 
>>>> On 25 Jul 2004 at 13:29, Michael Snider wrote:
>>>>> Can I  quote this and perhaps some of the supporting material at my
>>>>> blog ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501)?
>>>> 
>>>> Sure, as long as you post it after Wednesday, July 28, 2004. It will
>>>> be published at http://www.coolcleveland.com Tuesday at midnight, and
>>>> you can use it after that.
>>>> 
>>>> Marcus
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Marcus. I'll wait for that. Here's what I posted in the meantime
>>> (slightly edited) --I hope it's interesting for all list members, whether
>>> they
>>> agree or not.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I've been thinking a lot about Jonathan Mayhew's assertion (
>>> http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/2004/07/scattered-notes-armstrong-imposes
>>> -h
>>> is.html ) last Monday that "human nature" is an ideological construct and
>>> about Henry Gould's post
>>> (http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_hgpoetics_archive.html#10903281088
>>> 02
>>> 85245 ) last Tuesday on the difference between
>>> Modernist/post-modernist/avant
>>> garde approaches to form and those of at least some of the New Formalists or
>>> metrists in general. At the time I wrote what probably seemed like a snippy
>>> comment at HG Poetics, saying that Henry is more comfortable with
>>> metaphysics
>>> than I am. I apologize for that apparent tone, and now I realize that that's
>>> not really the issue anyway. Before I explain what I think the issue is, let
>>> me say that I do not in any way speak for the New Formalists. Most of them
>>> don't know who I am, and I've never spoken about any of these things with
>>> any
>>> who do know me except Fred Turner, and that was thirty ye!
>>> ars ago, when he and I both had very different notions about poetry and
>>> philosophy than either of us have now.
>>> 
>>> It's ironic, possibly tragic, that some artists and some philosophers lost
>>> their nerve and began to deny the possibility of anything but arbitrary
>>> reference between human intellection and the world at precisely the time
>>> when
>>> it began to be possible to explore the actual nature of that relationship,
>>> when physics and biology began, for the first time, to shine light onto the
>>> foundations of our existence in ways which did not depend on the individual
>>> or
>>> cultural history of the man or woman holding the flashlight: "Everything is
>>> relative" is a bizarre misunderstanding of Einstein's work, which showed
>>> that
>>> observers form any arbitrary inertial frame could reach identical
>>> conclusions
>>> about the motions of the physical systems being studied ? and it certainly
>>> doesn't matter whether a particular observer is a 60-year-old female atheist
>>> at Stanford University in California or a 25-year-old male Sunni Moslem at
>>> the
>>> University of Lampang in Indonesia. Certainly that light reveals a stra!
>>> nge world, often counter to our intuitions, but that is nothing new. Though
>>> a
>>> misquote, "Credo, quia absurdum" is so commonly cited that it reveals a deep
>>> divide between matters of faith and our ordinary perception of the world;
>>> Aquinas believed we are made in God's image, but that certainly didn't for
>>> him
>>> entail complete understanding of the mind of God.
>>> 
>>> What is new is that biology, and in particular recent work in evolutionary
>>> psychology, explains the gulf between our everyday perception and our
>>> conceptions of the underlying reality. "She's God and you're not" doesn't
>>> tell
>>> us why we're pretty darned good at negotiating those aspects of the world
>>> which matter to survival and reproduction but indifferent or blind to things
>>> at non-human scales of space or time. But in evolutionary terms, it simply
>>> doesn't matter that a leopard is mostly empty space. What matters is
>>> avoiding
>>> being eaten. Some elementary math is good for that, and therefore some
>>> counting isn't too hard for us or for a number of other animals. Partial
>>> differentiation of systems of non-linear equations is pretty tough.
>>> 
>>> And what matters for poetry in all that is that the new sciences do not
>>> invalidate our intuitive understanding of the non-human world or of each
>>> other's actions. In fact, they provide a strong argument for expecting that
>>> intuitive understanding to be correct most of the time in the ways that
>>> matter
>>> to our ordinary lives, and even shed some light on how and why we make the
>>> mistakes we do. More importantly, understanding language to be part of our
>>> evolved toolkit supports our natural belief that our speech refers to that
>>> part of the real world that matters to us.
>>> 
>>> It's quite remarkable, in fact. For the first time, our deepest conceptions
>>> of
>>> the world support our ordinary understanding even as they show its limits.
>>> That's bad news for the School of Phlogiston, for the children of Jorie, for
>>> the Oulippeans, and for post-modern theory in general. Disruption of
>>> ordinary
>>> language doesn't jolt us out of our ordinary perception: unless it's clear
>>> that some kind of game is being played, it merely convinces most of us that
>>> the speaker is crazy or incompetent. (Even in Zen, "Before enlightenment,
>>> chop
>>> wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.") If
>>> there is a game, the rules have to be clear enough to be grasped quickly but
>>> complex enough to sustain interest, and, unlike what we expect of poetry, we
>>> don't normally expect games to apply outside their artificial worlds (game
>>> theory in economics and psychology has little to do with the games we play
>>> for
>>> fun).
>>> 
>>> But though most of us want poems to be more than self-referential toys, a
>>> poem
>>> is not its paraphrasable sense, nor an experiment, nor a way of thinking or
>>> feeling. It's a way of saying something about the world in such a manner
>>> that
>>> other people find it memorable and moving. Meter can be a powerful tool to
>>> achieve those ends, though hardly the only tool available. What but pride,
>>> prejudice, or mistaken theory could persuade a poet never to use it?
>>> 
>>> -----
>>> Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer.
>>> http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> ---
>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From acgold01 at louisville.edu  Tue Jul 27 14:58:26 2004
From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:58:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Twentieth-Century Literature and Culture Conference
Message-ID: <s1066da0.021@gwise.louisville.edu>

Dear Listmates,

This is an invitation to consider attending the University of
Louisville's Twentieth-Century Literature and Culture Conference, now in
its thirty-third year.  The deadline is Sept. 15; more details at the
conference website:
http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/cml/xxconf/    Among other things, this
is usually a good conference for poetry (both in terms of papers
delivered and range of readings).

Alan Golding



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 28 00:49:27 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:49:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
Message-ID: <1c7.1c4ae50b.2e388a57@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/22/2004 8:58:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you say 
> it, not what you say. As an illustration of this tenet, let's pretend 
> for a moment that you have had the insight of the century, a profound 
> thought about society, or politics, or money, or medicine, or 
> engineering, or whatever that, after sober reflection and some 
> careful analysis, appears to you to be literally world-changing in 
> its significance and importance. Is it really your first thought "I 
> must write a poem about this!"?  No -- of course not -- because that 
> kind of thing is just not the realm of poetry, because such a thing 
> is important for what it is, what it can do, how it can change the 
> world -- not for how it is presented, how it is said. 
> 
> 

Marcus, I just got around to reading your piece. This particular
paragraph struck me as giving too much emphasis to manner
over material, or to style over content. I think that a poet who sees
things more acutely, who has deeper access to his/her experiences
and emotions, who is blessed with special insights into the subjects
he/she happens to engage, is making poetry out of  'content' as 
much as he/she may be making poetry through the 'packaging' of
language. I would go as far as saying that the content/material, 
when seen anew (or more rarely discovered), is more important to 
quality of the poem than the language of its conveyance. The 
content/material is inexhaustible when compared to the paltry resources 
of the various rhetorical devices and moves the poet might employ.

Another thought on that issue of marginalization is that any sub-group
of society, say poets, that thinks of themselves as marginalized will see
that notion more & more undercut by an ability to form far-flung yet 
very integrated communities through modern means such as the internet. 
That's not to say these small communities will attract any more of 
greater society's largesse or garner any more notoriety in the larger world, 
just that they now have the means of staying connected and can prosper 
on their own terms.
Finnegan
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From halvard at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 09:22:07 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:22:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Been there, done that . . .
In-Reply-To: <f160a1210407280619d05a024@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210407280619d05a024@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f160a12104072806223e8df1b9@mail.gmail.com>

>From the issue dated July 23, 2004

http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i46/46a01201.htm

The Tease of Memory
Psychologists are dusting off 19th-century explanations of d?j? vu.
Have we been here before?

By DAVID GLENN

In the summer of 1856, Nathaniel Hawthorne visited a decaying English
manor house known as Stanton Harcourt, not far from Oxford. He was
struck by the vast kitchen, which occupied the bottom of a 70-foot
tower. "Here, no doubt, they were accustomed to roast oxen whole, with
as little fuss and ado as a modern cook would roast a fowl," he wrote
in an 1863 travelogue, Our Old Home.

Hawthorne wrote that as he stood in that kitchen, he was seized by an
uncanny feeling: "I was haunted and perplexed by an idea that
somewhere or other I had seen just this strange spectacle before. The
height, the blackness, the dismal void, before my eyes, seemed as
familiar as the decorous neatness of my grandmother's kitchen." He was
certain that he had never actually seen this room or anything like it.
And yet for a moment he was caught in what he described as "that odd
state of mind wherein we fitfully and teasingly remember some previous
scene or incident, of which the one now passing appears to be but the
echo and reduplication."

When Hawthorne wrote that passage there was no common term for such an
experience. But by the end of the 19th century, after discarding
"false recognition," "paramnesia," and "promnesia," scholars had
settled on a French candidate: "d?j? vu," or "already seen."

The fleeting melancholy and euphoria associated with d?j? vu have
attracted the interest of poets, novelists, and occultists of many
stripes. St. Augustine, Sir Walter Scott, Dickens, and Tolstoy all
wrote detailed accounts of such experiences. (We will politely leave
aside a certain woozy song by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young.)

Most academic psychologists, however, have ignored the topic since
around 1890, when there was a brief flurry of interest. The phenomenon
seems at once too rare and too ephemeral to capture in a laboratory.
And even if it were as common as sneezing, d?j? vu would still be
difficult to study because it produces no measurable external
behaviors. Researchers must trust their subjects' personal
descriptions of what is going on inside their minds, and few people
are as eloquent as Hawthorne. Psychology has generally filed d?j? vu
away in a drawer marked "Interesting but Insoluble."

During the past two decades, however, a few hardy souls have reopened
the scientific study of d?j? vu. They hope to nail down a persuasive
explanation of the phenomenon, as well as shed light on some
fundamental elements of memory and cognition. In the new book The D?j?
Vu Experience: Essays in Cognitive Psychology (Psychology Press), Alan
S. Brown, a professor of psychology at Southern Methodist University,
surveys the fledgling subfield. "What we can try to do is zero in on
it from a variety of different angles," he says. "It won't be
something like, 'Boom! The explanation is there.' But we can get
gradual clarity through some hard work."

Fatigue and Freud

In their brief late-19th-century flirtation with d?j? vu, academic
psychologists developed remarkably sophisticated hypotheses, some of
which survive today. An article in a German psychology journal in 1878
suggested that d?j? vu happens when the processes of "sensation" and
"perception," which normally occur simultaneously, somehow move out of
sync. Fatigue, it said, may be a cause.

Eleven years later, William H. Burnham, a psychologist at Clark
University, in Worcester, Mass., offered the opposite suggestion: that
d?j? vu occurs when the nervous system is unusually well rested. "When
we see a strange object," he wrote, "its unfamiliar aspect is largely
due to the difficulty we find in apperceiving its characteristics. ...
[But] when the brain centers are over-rested, the apperception of a
strange scene may be so easy that the aspect of the scene will be
familiar."

That idea may sound peculiar: Could our minds really be thrown out of
kilter by unusually speedy and well-greased visual signals? But a
large body of modern research strongly suggests that brains do use
speed as a tool to assess whether an image or situation is familiar or
not. If we can process an image fluently and quickly, our brains
unconsciously interpret that as a cue that we have seen it before.
Both the "fatigue" and the "well rested" theories of d?j? vu remain on
the table today.

In 1896 Arthur Allin, a professor of psychology at the University of
Colorado at Boulder, wrote a long essay that covered many potential
explanations. Among other possibilities, he suggested that d?j? vu
situations feel familiar because they remind us of elements of
forgotten dreams; that our emotional reactions to a new image can
conjure a false feeling of familiarity; and that d?j? vu is generated
when our attention is very briefly interrupted during our introduction
to a new image.

Such inquiries nearly ground to a halt in the early-20th century, in
part because of the shadow of Freud. A new generation of scholars
arose for whom d?j? vu was unmistakable evidence of the ego's struggle
to defend itself against id and superego. In 1945 the British
psychologist Oliver L. Zangwill wrote a 15-page essay explaining that
Hawthorne's episode at Stanton Harcourt stemmed from an unresolved
erotic yearning for his mother. (This despite Hawthorne's own
plausible conclusion that his d?j? vu was sparked by a dimly
remembered Alexander Pope poem about the building.) As late as 1975
the prominent psychologist Bernard L. Pacella proposed that d?j? vu
occurs when the ego goes into a regressive panic, "scanning the phases
of life in a descent historically to the composite
primal-preobject-early libidinal object-representations of mother."

4 Modern Approaches

Most of today's d?j? vu scholars have chucked
primal-preobject-libidinal representations in favor of brain scans and
neuroimaging. Taking advantage of a recent explosion of experimental
research on memory errors, Mr. Brown and a few like-minded colleagues
have dusted off the theories of d?j? vu proposed during the late
Victorian era. At last, he hopes, such hypotheses can be subject to
rigorous experimental tests. He warns, however, not to expect quick
results: "A lot of science is geared at, How can I get tenure? How can
I crank out a study in a year? The luxury of being able to attack
difficult problems is often more risky. There's a little more
investment of your personal resources, a little bit of gambling."

In Mr. Brown's account, scientific theories of d?j? vu fall into four
broad families. The first are theories of "dual processing." The late
neuropsychiatrist Pierre Gloor conducted experiments in the 1990s
strongly suggesting that memory involves distinct systems of
"retrieval" and "familiarity." In a 1997 paper, he speculated that
d?j? vu occurs at rare moments when our familiarity system is
activated but our retrieval system is not. Other scholars argue that
the retrieval system is not shut off entirely but simply fires out of
sync, evoking the fatigue theory of a century earlier.

In the second category are more purely neurological explanations. One
such theory holds that d?j? vu experiences are caused by small, brief
seizures, akin to those caused by epilepsy. That idea is buttressed by
the fact that people with epilepsy often report having d?j? vu just
before going into full-blown seizures. Researchers have also found
that d?j? vu can be elicited by electrically stimulating certain
regions of the brain. In a 2002 paper, the Austrian physician Josef
Spatt, who works with epilepsy patients, argued that d?j? vu is caused
by brief, inappropriate firing in the parahippocampal cortex, which is
known to be associated with the ability to detect familiarity.

Mr. Brown's third category consists of memory theories. These propose
that d?j? vu is triggered by something we have actually seen or
imagined before, either in waking life, in literature or film, or in a
dream. Some of these theories hold that a single element, perhaps
familiar from some other context, is enough to spark a d?j? vu
experience. (Suppose, for example, that the chairs in Stanton
Harcourt's kitchen were identical in color and shape to Hawthorne's
decorously neat grandmother's, but that he didn't recognize them in
this new context.) At the other end of the scale are gestalt theories,
which suggest that we sometimes falsely recognize a general visual or
audio pattern. (Suppose that the Stanton Harcourt kitchen looked
similar, in broad visual outline, to a long-forgotten church that
Hawthorne had once attended.)

In the final box are "double perception" theories of d?j? vu, which
descend from Allin's 1896 suggestion that a brief interruption in our
normal process of perception might make something appear falsely
familiar. In 1989, in one of the first laboratory studies that tried
to induce something like d?j? vu, the cognitive psychologists Larry L.
Jacoby and Kevin Whitehouse, of Washington University in St. Louis,
showed their subjects a long list of words on a screen. The subjects
then returned a day or a week later and were shown another long list
of words, half of which had also been on the first list. They were
asked to identify which words they had seen during the first round.

The experimenters found that if they flashed a word at extremely
quick, subliminal speeds (20 milliseconds) shortly before its
"official" appearance on the screen during the second round, their
subjects were very likely to incorrectly say that it had appeared on
the first list. Those results lent at least indirect support to the
notion that if we attend to something half-consciously and then give
it our full attention, it can appear falsely familiar.

The study is one of many that demonstrate the potential pitfalls of
everyday memory and cognition, says Mr. Jacoby. "At our core, I think
all of us are na?ve realists. We believe the world is as it presents
itself," he says. "All of these experiments are a little unsettling if
you're a na?ve realist." He hopes that this line of research will
point toward new ways to repair the mental abilities of elderly people
with impaired memories. "If we highlight the distinction between
memory as expressed in performance and memory as we subjectively
experience it," he says, we might be able to train elderly people to
avoid common errors.

Speak, Memory

Having published his survey of the d?j? vu world, Southern Methodist's
Mr. Brown is embarking on a research program of his own. Together with
Elizabeth J. Marsh, an assist-ant professor of psychology at Duke
University, he is developing an experiment that may extend the
findings of Mr. Jacoby and Mr. Whitehouse. In the new studies,
subjects are asked to quickly locate a small red cross that is
superimposed on photographs of various campus landscapes. The
researchers' expectation is that the subjects will concentrate on the
crosses and not pay much attention to the backgrounds. A week later,
when the subjects return, they are shown the campus photographs again
-- along with many photographs not used in the first round -- and are
asked, "Have you seen this place before?" and "Have you been to this
place before?" (After all the slides have been shown, the participants
are asked about which campuses they have actually visited.) Mr. Brown
and Ms. Marsh wonder if the experiment will produce incorrect "yes"
answers -- or even d?j? vu experiences -- when the subjects look at
the images they have half-consciously seen the week before.

Ms. Marsh, who specializes in more-orthodox studies of memory, had no
particular interest in d?j? vu before last year, when she was asked to
review Mr. Brown's book manuscript. "I came at this as a student of
basic memory and memory errors," she says. "But I became fascinated by
what Alan had to say about the d?j? vu literature. He described all of
these funky little findings -- that people who travel frequently, for
example, are more likely to experience d?j? vu."

Further down the road, Mr. Brown would like to see studies that shed
light on some of those odd findings. Why does d?j? vu become less
common as people grow older? Why do political liberals report more
frequent d?j? vu experiences than conservatives do? And why do the
majority of d?j? vu experiences seem to occur when people are in
mundane settings? (Arthur T. Funkhouser, a Jungian analyst in
Switzerland who is considering writing a book about the phenomenon,
believes that it offers a window into the self -- but concedes that
the raw material of d?j? vu experiences are often oddly dull. "Why
does the unconscious pick such banal elements for us to think about?"
he asks.)

Mr. Brown would also like to work with people with epilepsy, and with
people who have the rare condition of suffering d?j? vu pretty much
every day. "I'm in contact with someone by e-mail who has almost
constant d?j? vu," he says. "Someone like that would be very fruitful
to work with in the lab."

But he does not expect to see any clear conceptual or experimental
breakthroughs anytime soon. It is possible, he says, that what we call
d?j? vu is actually five or six phenomena, with separate causes. "This
will be very slow progress toward a very abstract phenomenon," he
says. "It's kind of like space exploration. You're not sure exactly
what you'll find."

http://chronicle.com
Section: Research & Publishing
Volume 50, Issue 46, Page A12

--
Hal                Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam.

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Jul 28 09:27:45 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:27:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
In-Reply-To: <1c7.1c4ae50b.2e388a57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <41077191.23828.7F0800@localhost>

>     Poetry is rhetoric, not thought, not emotion. Poetry is how you
>     say it, not what you say. As an illustration of this tenet, let's
>     pretend for a moment that you have had the insight of the century,
>     a profound thought about society, or politics, or money, or
>     medicine, or engineering, or whatever that, after sober reflection
>     and some careful analysis, appears to you to be literally
>     world-changing in its significance and importance. Is it really
>     your first thought "I must write a poem about this!"? No -- of
>     course not -- because that kind of thing is just not the realm of
>     poetry, because such a thing is important for what it is, what it
>     can do, how it can change the world -- not for how it is
>     presented, how it is said. 
> 
On 28 Jul 2004 at 0:49, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Marcus, I just got around to reading your piece. This particular
> paragraph struck me as giving too much emphasis to manner
> over material, or to style over content. I think that a poet who sees
> things more acutely, who has deeper access to his/her experiences and
> emotions, who is blessed with special insights into the subjects
> he/she happens to engage, is making poetry out of 'content' as much as
> he/she may be making poetry through the 'packaging' of language. I
> would go as far as saying that the content/material, when seen anew
> (or more rarely discovered), is more important to quality of the poem
> than the language of its conveyance. The content/material is
> inexhaustible when compared to the paltry resources of the various
> rhetorical devices and moves the poet might employ.

What distinguishes poetry from prose is the language of the 
conveyance of the content, not the content. I don't argue for 
restictions on content in poetry -- I simply observe that the 
difference between poetry and prose is that the content is more 
important in prose and the language is more important in poetry. I 
don't argue that one can write great poetry with style but no 
content, or great prose with content and no style. 

I disagree that one can make poetry out of content without reference 
to the way languague is employed and deployed to create a context and 
setting for that content. The essence of poetry, I argue, is that 
poetry is distinguished from prose by its style and manner, by its 
rhetoric, while prose doesn't require any particular style or manner. 
Some prose has a particular style or manner, of course, and some 
poetry has particular content -- but the difference is that poetry 
MUST have style or manner, and prose need not. Prose doesn't even 
need content. "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

> Another thought on that issue of marginalization is that any sub-group
> of society, say poets, that thinks of themselves as marginalized will
> see that notion more & more undercut by an ability to form far-flung
> yet very integrated communities through modern means such as the
> internet. That's not to say these small communities will attract any
> more of greater society's largesse or garner any more notoriety in the
> larger world, just that they now have the means of staying connected
> and can prosper on their own terms.<

My assertion about ghettoization is that a ghetto is a non-volitional 
grouping -- that people are compelled to live in ghettos, but choose 
to live in communities, however far-flung. It is a claim to be 
disadvantaged to claim to be "ghettoized", and while academics and 
academic poets may not be Trumps and Gateses, they are far from 
disadvantaged.

Marcus








From lattaj at umich.edu  Wed Jul 28 12:13:55 2004
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:13:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poker # 4 available (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0407281210010.24020@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Announcement of a terrific magazine. I talk a little about the Steve Evans
essay at Hotel Point <http://hotelpoint.blogspot.com/>, entry of 27 July,
2004. Subscribe.

John Latta


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:00:19 -0400
From: Daniel Bouchard <bouchard at MIT.EDU>
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: The Poker # 4 available

The Poker # 4 announces its fourth issue, containing

poems by
Anna Moschovakis, Cole Heinowitz, Aaron Kunin, Giuseppe Ungaretti
(translated by Robert Fitterman), Hoa Nguyen,
Ange Mlinko, Nathaniel Tarn, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Cedar Sigo, Elizabeth
Marie Young
*
an interview with Ange Mlinko
* *
a response by Juliana Spahr to "Notes on an Impoverished Theory" (in issue #3)
* * *
a broad essay on poetry publishing, reviewing, grants and awards over the
past few months by Steve Evans
* * * *
and book reviews of Kent Johnson and Dale Smith
* * * * * *

Be sure to check out The Poker's new Web presence at
<http://www.durationpress.com/thepoker/>

where you will see our growing list of (still-available) back issues:

The Poker 1
poetry by Alice Notley, Chris Stroffolino, D. A. Powell, Daniel Bouchard,
George Stanley, Jennifer Moxley, Juliana Spahr, Kevin Killian, Kimberly
Lyons, Laura Elrick, Philip Jenks, Robert Mueller, and Shin Yu Pai
interview with Kimberly Lyons book reviews of Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Joseph
Torra, Brenda Bordofsky, MacGregor Card, Karen Weiser and The World in Time
and Space (ed. Donahue and Foster)

The Poker 2
poetry by Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Kit Robinson, Ange Mlinko, Colin Smith,
Camille Guthrie, David Perry, Jennifer Scappettone, K. Silem Mohammad,
Joseph Torra, Merrill Gilfillan special poetry section: iraqi poets Jawad
Yaqoob, Sadiq al-Saygh, Dunya Mikhail, Yousif al-Sa'igh, Sami Mahdi, Fawzi
Karim, Gzar Hantoosh, Sinan Anton, Mahdi Muhammed Ali art by Tom Neely an
essay by Jennifer Moxley book reviews of Paul Metcalf, Philip Whalen, Sara
Veglahn, Kenneth Rexroth

The Poker 3
poetry by Fanny Howe, James Thomas Stevens, Dale Smith, Daniel Bouchard,
Jacqueline Waters, Alan Davies, Gleb Shulpyakov, Andrew Schelling, Jules
Boykoff, Bruce Holsapple an interview with Kevin Davies essays by William
Carlos Williams (introduced by Richard Deming), Fanny Howe, and Aaron
Kunin  plus a book review of Anselm Berrigan


The Poker encourages its audience to support continued publication by
making both financial and artistic contributions. The Poker encourages you
to send poems, translations, articles, book reviews, books to review, and
commentary. We invite criticism and debate. Essays by poets will be prized.
Poetry by politicians will be ridiculed. Ideas for large articles,
projects, interviews, and visual art should be queried before sent.

We prefer not to receive submissions via e-mail, but to our editorial
address: P.O. Box 390408, Cambridge, MA 02139. However, the editor can be
reached via <bouchard at mit.edu>

The cost of each The Poker is $10.00.
Subscriptions: 3 for $24.00. Library subscriptions may be placed through EBSCO.
All orders post paid.
Make checks payable to Daniel Bouchard, and mail to P.O. Box 390408,
Cambridge, MA 02139.




 ><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Daniel Bouchard
Senior Production Coordinator
The MIT Press Journals
Five Cambridge Center
Cambridge, MA 02142

bouchard at mit.edu
phone: 617.258.0588
   fax: 617.258.5028
<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>>


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 28 14:41:58 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:41:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ron Sukenick, 1932-2004
Message-ID: <75.2f69fc02.2e394d76@aol.com>

From: Rebecca Kaiser [mailto:rakaise at ilstu.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 12:31 PM
To: Charles B. Harris
Subject: Ron Sukenick, 1932-2004 
28 July 2004
Dear Friends of American Book Review:
I'm writing to inform you that Ron Sukenick died in the early morning of July 
22.  For the past several years, Ron suffered from Inclusion Body Myositis.  
A muscular disease for which there is no known cure and only experimental 
treatment, it is a progressive and degenerative illness. By the turn of the 
century, Ron could walk only with the help of a cane, and he was wheelchair-bound 
for the last three years. 
Ron developed pneumonia early last week and asked that no artificial attempts 
be made to keep him going.  As his wife Julia Frey said, "Ron died the way he 
lived: exactly the way he wanted to."
There will be no funeral service.  A memorial service will be held in the 
fall.  Details of this service will be announced at a later date.
A leading figure in postmodernist literature for nearly four decades, Ron 
founded American Book Review in 1977 and, with several other writers, Fiction 
Collective, later FC2, in 1974.  He completed his last novel, entitled Last Fall, 
just weeks ago.  FC2 will publish it in the spring.
The November/December issue of American Book Review will be dedicated to Ron 
and will contain statements from his many friends.  If you would like to 
contribute a statement-an anecdote, a testimonial, a recollection-please contact 
ABR's managing editor (contact information below) as you can.  Selected 
statements will be published in the special memorial section of the issue, and all of 
the statements will be posted on ABR's Web site.
One of Ron's final requests was that, in lieu of flowers, contributions to 
support his work and memory should be made to American Book Review and/or FC2.  
For ABR, please make checks payable to American Book Review, identified as a 
memorial to Ronald Sukenick.  Send to American Book Review, Campus Box 4241, 
Illinois State University, Normal IL, 61790-4241. For FC2, please make checks 
payable to Fiction Collective Two and identify as a memorial to Ronald Sukenick. 
 Send to Fiction Collective Two, Department of English, Florida State 
University, Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580. All contributions to American Book Review and 
FC2 are tax deductible.
Sincerely,

Charles B. Harris, Publisher
American Book Review

[our apologies if you've received this message more than once]
-- 
Rebecca Kaiser
Managing Editor, American Book Review
Illinois State University
Campus Box 4241
Fairchild 109
Normal, IL 61790-4241
ph. 309-438-3026
fax 309-438-3523
rakaise at ilstu.edu
http://www.litline.org/abr
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From alphavil at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jul 28 20:40:04 2004
From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:40:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ron Sukenick, 1932-2004
In-Reply-To: <75.2f69fc02.2e394d76@aol.com>
References: <75.2f69fc02.2e394d76@aol.com>
Message-ID: <41084764.907@ix.netcom.com>

Ron Sukenick was much admired by FlashPoint editor Jack Foley.  Jack 
interviewed Ron for FP's first on-line issue, and Ron kindly gave us a 
story for that issue as well:   [ 
http://www.flashpointmag.com/index1.htm ]  .  He will be missed.  - 
rg/FlashPoint

*life/art: a static story for the small screen 
<http://www.flashpointmag.com/lifeart.htm>
/ronald sukenick/*

*
//*

*the rival tradition <http://www.flashpointmag.com/sukeint1.htm>
/ronald sukenick
/*

*/
/*




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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Jul 28 23:24:07 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:24:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ghettoization of Poetry
Message-ID: <1e.2f7eb1fb.2e39c7d7@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/28/2004 9:28:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> What distinguishes poetry from prose is the language of the 
> conveyance of the content, not the content. I don't argue for 
> restictions on content in poetry -- I simply observe that the 
> difference between poetry and prose is that the content is more 
> important in prose and the language is more important in poetry. I 
> don't argue that one can write great poetry with style but no 
> content, or great prose with content and no style. 
> 
> I disagree that one can make poetry out of content without reference 
> to the way languague is employed and deployed to create a context and 
> setting for that content. The essence of poetry, I argue, is that 
> poetry is distinguished from prose by its style and manner, by its 
> rhetoric, while prose doesn't require any particular style or manner. 
> Some prose has a particular style or manner, of course, and some 
> poetry has particular content -- but the difference is that poetry 
> MUST have style or manner, and prose need not. Prose doesn't even 
> need content. "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

Marcus, I share your?frustration with the?'Oh, I'm so marginalized'
crowd, so let me go on to the other point--
?
Let's take two examples..."simplified poems," if you will:
?
??? Poem A, has felicitous rhetoric, but straightforward
??? and undistinguished content. You could say it's an example 
??? of Pope's "what oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed."
?
??? Poem B, has felicitous rhetoric, but the content is either
??? completely new thinking/seeing/feeling?(rare) or the poem's 
??? subject matter is being engaged in a?radically different or profound 
way....
??? the observation or vision are "making IT new" (somewhat less rare).
?
I would say,?discounting the inevitable bleed through and impurity 
of the two elements (language & content), that Poem B is one we 
would admire, and that the poetic?language is a?given in both cases;
the poetic language is only supporting something much larger
and more important that is?making the?piece?a poem. Without getting too 
mystical, this is often referred to the "poetic vision" or "poetic insight" 
or apprehension of the "poetic moment", etc. The language is the 
lesser part of the two conjoined elements. This is similar to what
Sydney said a long time ago when he stated that the?verse doesn't 
make the poetry. The verse is a given...the poetry is beyond or 
beneath that layer.
Finnegan
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Jul 29 11:51:38 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:51:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] article on spam poetry...
In-Reply-To: <f160a12104072806223e8df1b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f160a1210407280619d05a024@mail.gmail.com>
	<f160a12104072806223e8df1b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040729105051.R16359@kpaul.spinweb.net>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/23/spam_poetry_compendium/

and here i thought we were on the cutting edge with our found spam poems 
;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Jul 29 13:41:35 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:41:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Obit: Patricia Dobler / Poet,
	English professor at Carlow 
Message-ID: <12c.47a3b48f.2e3a90cf@aol.com>

Obituary: Patricia Dobler / Poet, English professor at Carlow College
Tuesday, July 27, 2004
 
By Bob Hoover, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
 
Poet and teacher Patricia Dobler was putting the finishing touches on two new 
projects -- a poetry collection and a master's degree in writing program -- 
when she died suddenly at her Oakland home Saturday. She was 65.
 
Carlow College, where Ms. Dobler was associate professor of English, will 
launch its graduate writing program in January.
 
Ms. Dobler was to be program director and had been working on it for eight 
years, said Samuel Hazo, founder and president of the International Poetry 
Forum, which is headquartered at Carlow.
 
"Her many friends and admirers -- and I was one of them -- know how committed 
she was to the master of fine arts program," Hazo said yesterday. "That could 
well be her best memorial where future students will be as grateful of her 
vision as her past and current students are now."
 
"The program was really based on her capabilities," said Sister Grace Ann 
Geibel, Carlow president. "Pat was our resident talent. I'm just shocked and at a 
loss for words right now."
 
Lisa Mullen of Baltimore, one of Ms. Dobler's two daughters, said yesterday 
her mother had completed her third collection, titled "Now," and was making 
plans for its publication last week.
 
Ms. Dobler suffered from a debilitating lung disease for eight years but had 
been recovering, her daughter said.
 
"She was healthy and able to exercise and making plans for a visit from her 
grandchildren," Mullen said. "Her death was so sudden."
 
Ms. Dobler not only wrote poetry, but taught in both at Carlow and in the 
college's nondegree workshop, Madwomen in the Attic.
 
Her "madwomen" were frequently older students who were taking up writing 
seriously for the first time.
 
She was named head of Madwomen in 1986, the year she joined the Carlow 
faculty. In 1992, Ms. Dobler launched a literary journal, "Voices From the Attic," 
to showcase the workshoppers' writing.
 
"Her efforts on behalf of older working women are unparalleled, both in 
Pittsburgh and around the country," said fellow poet Lynn Emanuel, a University of 
Pittsburgh professor. "There's no community poetry program like it anywhere 
else."
 
Emanuel said the program appealed to women "who were longing to find support, 
to be together, not because of any pathology, but because they wanted to be 
writers. Pat reached out to women who were disenfranchised and helped them find 
their voice."
 
Although her workshop students were frequently untrained writers, Ms. Dobler 
had high standards, Emanuel said.
 
"She could be as tough as hell on them. Her classes were empowering, but they 
were tough and exacting, too. She believed that if you worked hard enough, 
read enough and loved poetry enough, anybody could write a poem."
 
Maggie Anderson taught Ms. Dobler in Pitt's graduate school in the late 
1970s, but said she came to realize that "Pat was my teacher.
 
"She knew so much because she was always reading -- poetry, magazines, 
contemporary novels. I was at her house last week and there must have been six or 
seven books lying around open and marked."
 
Anderson, who teaches English and directs the Wick Poetry Center at Kent 
State University in Ohio, formed a writer's group with Ms. Dobler, Emanuel and 
Judith Vollmer about 25 years ago.
 
The group has met faithfully every year, said Anderson.
 
"Pat was the heart of the group because she supported everybody in the 
group," Vollmer said. She teaches at Pitt's Greensburg campus and is an 
award-winning poet.
 
She was born in the steel mill town of Middletown, Ohio, and her work focused 
on the life of the working class, particularly the families of recent 
immigrants, in such books as "Forget Your Wife," "Talking to Strangers" and "UXB." 
 
"Pat had the uncanny talent to link the actual world, the gritty, sorrowful 
tragic world of labor and the people involved in those terrible jobs and family 
lives to a vision of beauty," Emanuel said.
 
"Her poems were amazing, original works."
 
Both Anderson and Vollmer draw on the lives of working-class Americans as 
well and both believe Ms. Dobler succeeded in elevating and honoring that culture.
 
"The most important thing Pat did was combing her working-class roots with a 
really strong sense of the spiritual world," said Anderson.
 
To Vollmer, Ms. Dobler was "a sister of the lower-middle class. "She wrote in 
this forthright, blunt, candid American voice, but was inspired by the 
folkloric and transcendental themes of European poets. Her favorite poet was 
[Czeslaw] Milosz.
 
"Pat's poems were more complicated than just that 'Rustbelt' theme."
 
Vollmer said a literary memorial for Ms. Dobler is planned for September.
 
She is also survived by another daughter, Stephanie Cerra, of San Francisco; 
two grandchildren; and her ex-husband, the writer Bruce Dobler. 
 
A memorial service will be held at 10 a.m. Thursday at the Ryan Catholic 
Newman Center, 4450 Bayard St., Oakland.
 
Burial will follow in Calvary Cemetery, Hazelwood.
 
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
(Post-Gazette Book Editor Bob Hoover can be reached at 
bhoover at post-gazette.com or 412-263-1634.)
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From m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk  Thu Jul 29 18:12:30 2004
From: m.peverett at ukonline.co.uk (Michael Peverett)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:12:30 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brief History Latest
Message-ID: <000001c475b9$49c87510$adc828c3@FY.LOCAL>

Latest additions to the ensemble contained in A Brief History of Western
Culture:

Dryden?s Life of Plutarch
Scott?s Quentin Durward
J.L. Runeberg (patriotic ballads of a Finnish romantic poet)
Peter Yates (British poet of the 1940s)
R.K. Narayan (Indian short-story writer)
Punk in England (1977)
Florence Elon (US poet - with a note on First Person Present Tense)
Peter Finch (Welsh experimental poet)
Erophila verna (an ephemeral plant)
Tales from the Ironing Trade

http://www.geocities.com/mpeverett/other_main.htm



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Jul 30 10:01:43 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:01:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bukowski documentary
Message-ID: <1ad.26aa9230.2e3baec7@aol.com>

 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movies/184135_bukowski30q.html?source=rss
Friday, July 30, 2004
 
'Bukowski' examines the brutal life of a radical poet
 
By STEPHEN HOLDEN
THE NEW YORK TIMES
 
"My father was a great literary teacher," recalls the famously scrappy, 
hard-drinking poet and novelist Charles Bukowski, who died in 1994. "He taught me 
the meaning of pain -- pain without reason." Three times a week, from the ages 
of 6 to 11, he was beaten by his father with a razor strap, he remembers in 
John Dullaghan's definitive and engrossing documentary portrait, "Bukowski: Born 
Into This."
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From kpaul at mallasch.com  Fri Jul 30 10:27:32 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:27:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bukowski documentary
In-Reply-To: <1ad.26aa9230.2e3baec7@aol.com>
References: <1ad.26aa9230.2e3baec7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040730092724.H3134@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Thanks for the heads up.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

>
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movies/184135_bukowski30q.html?source=rss
> Friday, July 30, 2004
>
> 'Bukowski' examines the brutal life of a radical poet
>
> By STEPHEN HOLDEN
> THE NEW YORK TIMES
>
> "My father was a great literary teacher," recalls the famously scrappy,
> hard-drinking poet and novelist Charles Bukowski, who died in 1994. "He taught me
> the meaning of pain -- pain without reason." Three times a week, from the ages
> of 6 to 11, he was beaten by his father with a razor strap, he remembers in
> John Dullaghan's definitive and engrossing documentary portrait, "Bukowski: Born
> Into This."
>


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Jul 30 14:24:21 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:24:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bukowski documentary
Message-ID: <da.fff614d.2e3bec55@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/30/2004 9:27:43 AM Central Daylight Time, 
kpaul at mallasch.com writes: 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/
> 
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> >http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movies/184135_bukowski30q.html?source=rss
> >Friday, July 30, 2004
> >
> >'Bukowski' examines the brutal life of a radical poet
> >

I always liked some lines from one of Liza Zeidner's poems.  She's 
complaining that her mother beat her when she was a kid, and the friend replies:

       "Listen.  If you were your mother
       you would have beat you too."
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From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Jul 30 15:46:35 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:46:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: [poetrybay] nyc howl festival/lower east side arts
Message-ID: <010d01c4766d$ed58d030$e1737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "islandguidec" <poetrybay at aol.com>
To: <poetrybay at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 2:43 PM
Subject: [poetrybay] nyc howl festival/lower east side arts


> 
> Festival Of East Village Arts Returns
> 
> The Howl Festival, aka Festival of East Village Arts (FEVA), enters 
> its second year with (at last count) 440 scheduled events with 
> participating venues to commemorate and celebrate the artistic legacy 
> of the Lower East Side, "and to present a united front if you will 
> from encroachment on our neighborhood," says Ekayani, one of the 
> organizers of the festival. " The Lower East Side is the cradle of 
> counterculture."
> 
> Scheduled to occur from Aug 17-24, 2004 in such locations as Tompkins 
> Square, St Marks Poetry Project and La Plaza Cultural, the 
> countercultural festival will include art exhibitions, dance, film, 
> literature, music, performance, poetry, politics and theater
> 
> Three mainstage events include the Charlie Parker Festival, Wigstock, 
> and the Allen Ginsberg Poetry festival. 
> 
> The fabulous howl! jr. returns to Tompkins Square Park, as does The 
> Midway, showcasing local restaurants and artists. Organizers are 
> particularly excited to be presenting Viva CHARAS!, a full day of 
> Latino music and dance, and a full day of the Bluegrass Ball, both at 
> La Plaza Cultural on Avenue C and 9th Street. 
> 
> Friday, August 20, 2004 5-9 pm at the Bandshell Stage, Tompkins 
> Square Park is the Allen Ginsberg Poetry Festival, hosted by Steve 
> Earle, singer, songwriter, and political activist, and Christopher 
> Stackhouse, artist, curator, and poet. The Allen Ginsberg Poetry 
> Festival celebrates the spirit of the renowned poet, world traveler, 
> spiritual seeker, founding-member of the Beats, champion of human and 
> civil rights, photographer, songwriter, political gadfly, teacher, 
> and co-founder of the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. 
> Terrific artists who embody various aspects of Ginsberg's eclectic 
> oeuvre will perform. 
> 
> Scheduled for the Allen Ginsberg Poetry Reading are:
> 
> 5-5:30 pm Yoshiko Chuma, choreographer and Poetry Project veteran, in 
> collaboration with seven dancers from Japan, Ireland, and New York 
> City will raise the curtain with a dance performance; 
> 
> 5:30-6 pm Steve Earle talks about poetry and politics. He will read a 
> selection of Allen's work; and 
> 
> 6-9 pm Readings by Kazim Ali, Erica Kaufman, C.A. Conrad, Anyssa Kim, 
> Denize Lauture, Janine Pomy-Vega, Edwin Torres, Tracie Morris, John 
> Giorno, and Bernadette Mayer. 
> 
> And as part of the HOWL Festival, the C-Note will present, on 
> Saturday, August 21, from 7-9:45, a special reading of writings by 
> Jack Kerouac, created by the author of On The Road while he was 
> living in Northport. Entitled "Old Angel Midnight: A Tribute to Jack 
> Kerouac and David Amram," it will feature East Village poets reading 
> classic Kerouac, with musical accompaniment by his original 
> collaborator, a living American treasure: David Amram. Readings will 
> be conducted by a number of individuals who appeared in 2001 in 
> Northport for the Big Sur marathon, including David Amram, Adira 
> Amram, Zoe Artemis, Casey Cyr, George Wallace and Michelle Esrick. 
> Other special reading guests will include Ekayani, Sarah Elizabeth, 
> Steve Dalachinsky, Mike McHugh and Ron Whitehead, and Special Guests.
> 
> According to Phil Hartman, Executive Director of HOWL/FEVA, the 
> hugely popular home-grown festival is likely to draw even more 
> interest this summer "with the nation facing such critical decisions. 
> We need to step up and let our voice be heard. We owe it to the 
> spirit of Emma Goldman and Allen Ginsberg and Miguel Pinero and Joey 
> Ramone." 
> 
>  Visit http://www.howlfestival.com or call the FEVA/Howl office and 
> ask them for one. The number there is 212 505-2225
> 
> 




From sbmontana at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 21:04:20 2004
From: sbmontana at gmail.com (Sharon Brogan)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:04:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
In-Reply-To: <003101c47341$db17e020$42737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <003101c47341$db17e020$42737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <9095266e04073018046ce1218e@mail.gmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:53:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
To: New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Dear All, 

it is time for the latest update of the Poet's Corner featuring the
following Poets:

  
Anny -- Thanks so much for all this work -- & lots to read in the days to come.

-- 
Sharon Brogan 
http://www.sbpoet.com


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Jul 31 02:52:55 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:52:55 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
References: <003101c47341$db17e020$42737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
	<9095266e04073018046ce1218e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004301c476cb$0271fd40$d9607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you Sharon, till soon, Anny

From: "Sharon Brogan" <sbmontana at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 3:04 AM


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:53:35 +0200
> Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
> To: New Poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>
> Dear All,
>
> it is time for the latest update of the Poet's Corner featuring the
> following Poets:
>
>
> Anny -- Thanks so much for all this work -- & lots to read in the days to
come.
>
> -- 
> Sharon Brogan
> http://www.sbpoet.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at gmail.com  Sat Jul 31 18:23:14 2004
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:23:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem after Stein
Message-ID: <f160a121040731152322f78acd@mail.gmail.com>

Poem after Stein

Pigeons on the roof,
aloof.

             San Miguel de Allende, Gto., Mexico
             July 31, 2004

--
Hal

Halvard Johnson
halvard at gmail.com
halvard at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


From writerslink at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jul 31 22:10:55 2004
From: writerslink at ozemail.com.au (Chris Mansell)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:10:55 +1000
Subject: new poetry list[New-Poetry] Are you a Literature Abuser? 
In-Reply-To: <b9.435e22b7.2e37dee8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BD328E4F.613F%writerslink@ozemail.com.au>

Yep.
C

On 28/7/04 2:38 AM, "JforJames at aol.com" <JforJames at aol.com> wrote:

> Are you a Literature Abuser? 

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From writerslink at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jul 31 22:21:08 2004
From: writerslink at ozemail.com.au (Chris Mansell)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:21:08 +1000
Subject: new poetry list[New-Poetry] double-scam?
In-Reply-To: <4105375A.5C996DBC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BD3290B4.6144%writerslink@ozemail.com.au>

I got something like this too.

All the best
Chris 

--
Chris Mansell
www.chris.mansell.name
www.presspress.com.au

On 27/7/04 2:54 AM, "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Got two of these this a.m. and I suspect they and their attachment -
> which I did not open - are the real scammers.  But, I'd be interested to
> hear if anyone on the lists I subscribe to received spam message
> purportedly from me.
> 
> - Jim
> 
>> Dear user jvcervantes at earthlink.net,
>> 
>> We have received reports that your account was used to send a huge amount of
>> spam messages during
>> this week.
>> Probably, your computer was compromised and now runs a trojaned proxy server.
>> 
>> Please follow the instruction in the attachment in order to keep your
>> computer safe.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> earthlink.net user support team.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Jul 31 23:24:00 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:24:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Strand query
Message-ID: <BD31DA8F.9F1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Away from my bookshelves and from my home computer for a month, I'm
wondering if anyone out there has a copy of Mark Strand's poem "Night Piece
(after Dickens)" handy on disk? and if you might be willing to post it or
send to me back-channel?

Thanking you in advance. . . .


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From kpaul at mallasch.com  Sat Jul 31 23:37:50 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:37:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Strand query
In-Reply-To: <BD31DA8F.9F1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BD31DA8F.9F1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20040731223600.S78521@kpaul.spinweb.net>

This is all Google gave me, a tease, w/pictures, tho...

"But even in this stranger's wilderness of a city
it is a still night.
Steeples and skyscrapers
grow more ethereal,
rooftop crowded with towers
and ducts
lose their ugliness
under the shining of the urban moon;
street noises are fewer
and are softened, and footsteps
on the sidewalks
pass more quietly away.


"In this place where
the sound of sirens
never ceases
and people move like a ghostly traffic from home to work and home
and the poor
in their tenements speak to their gods
and the rich
do not hear them,
every sound is merged,
this moonlit night, into a distant humming, as if
the city, finally, were singing itself to sleep."


(from Night Piece (after Dickens)
by Mark Strand,
(from Charlie Haden CD, "Night and the City")

http://www.thenocturnes.com/tompaiva.htm
---------------------


sorry it's not the whole thing ;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, David Graham wrote:

> Away from my bookshelves and from my home computer for a month, I'm
> wondering if anyone out there has a copy of Mark Strand's poem "Night Piece
> (after Dickens)" handy on disk? and if you might be willing to post it or
> send to me back-channel?
>
> Thanking you in advance. . . .
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Jul 31 23:41:25 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Strand query
In-Reply-To: <20040731223600.S78521@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <BD31DEA4.9F6%grahamd@ripon.edu>

on 7/31/04 11:37 PM, kpaul mallasch at kpaul at mallasch.com wrote:

> This is all Google gave me, a tease, w/pictures, tho...
> 
> "But even in this stranger's wilderness of a city
> it is a still night.
> Steeples and skyscrapers
> grow more ethereal,
> rooftop crowded with towers
> and ducts
> lose their ugliness
> under the shining of the urban moon;
> street noises are fewer
> and are softened, and footsteps
> on the sidewalks
> pass more quietly away.
> 
> 
> "In this place where
> the sound of sirens
> never ceases
> and people move like a ghostly traffic from home to work and home
> and the poor
> in their tenements speak to their gods
> and the rich
> do not hear them,
> every sound is merged,
> this moonlit night, into a distant humming, as if
> the city, finally, were singing itself to sleep."
> 
> 
> (from Night Piece (after Dickens)
> by Mark Strand,
> (from Charlie Haden CD, "Night and the City")
> 
> http://www.thenocturnes.com/tompaiva.htm
> ---------------------
> 
> 
> sorry it's not the whole thing ;)
> 
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/
> 
> 
Thanks.  It's all Google gave me, too!  But yes, a lovely group of photos. .
. .

The Charlie Haden/ Kenny Barron duet album that uses the quote is wonderful,
by the way.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================