From halvard Thu Jan 1 00:29:00 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:29:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! Message-ID: Here in NYC, the New Year is 25 minutes old. Happy New Year, everyone. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 07:00:37 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 07:00:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> Message-ID: <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > > regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > > stated or implied). > > Frankly, Bob, I just don't get this. > > What is it about the poem that locates it in spring? > > April may be the cruelest month breeding lilacs out of a dead land (though > for terminal hell give me "Childe Roland" any day) but "In a Station of the > Metro"? The image of the petal is an image of spring. The faces are equated with it, which makes them spring. It seems to me that any word in a haiku that identifies what season it is about is a season word, and this one is about spring, the discovery of spring in the faces in the crowd. > I think you're confusing this with "The Jewel Stair's Grievance", which > actually +does+ have a seasonal (spring) reference. > > > > It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > > > > > > R. > > > > Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > > from. > > That hell is other people is *so* sixties, regardless of the season. I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the people as leaving it. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 07:50:35 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:50:35 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000b01c3d065$d994ae60$e8728051@MyPC> > The image of the petal is an image of spring. Um ... a dubious generalisation that. > I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > people as leaving it. Actually, this may be the crunch of our disagreement. Sure, the Metro that Pound is referring to is a French subway. (Underground? I can never remember how the terminology plays in the US. Here, the underground is what trains run in. Under. [What Pound was referencing.] And a subway is what people use to walk under the road.) But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin From halvard Thu Jan 1 08:15:59 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 08:15:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Year" Message-ID: NEW YEAR Cardinals fly up from the edge of the near field, another year's luck. The haiku poet gives us a morning gift: Starry night: she squeezes in between her husband and her ex A road, a fence, a field. A table on which a book lies open: History of the Great American Fortunes by Gustavus Myers. A glimpse out the window of gray and white cat. I open the door and in it comes. This is the first day, unlike any other. for Lynda Lynda and I met at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts back in the late 80s, got engaged there the next year, and have been back a number of times since. VCCA is an arts colony about eleven miles north of Lynchburg and the James River, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. We owe the place a lot. The poem above comes from one of our first joint residencies there, and the haiku poet was Dee Everts, who still lives and works here in NYC, I believe. The association of sighting cardinals with New Year's luck began, as far as I know, with Chicago painter Tony Phillips and the late Jerry Badanes, who would wander the premises and nearby roads until they'd seen their New Year's cardinal. One year this took them nearly all day. Hal "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 09:23:48 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:23:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <1c3.1389bcce.2d258774@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > people as leaving it. > > --Bob G. A Metro station is underground, not above it. The poem is set "in" a station. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 09:30:44 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:30:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > > But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > windows as the train sped along in the dark. > > Hm ... > > Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > copy to hand. > > (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) > > Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > edit her deceased husband's notes. > > Robin > Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 09:45:30 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:45:30 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000b01c3d065$d994ae60$e8728051@MyPC> Message-ID: <001d01c3d075$e767b3b0$9b188051@MyPC> > it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > edit her deceased husband's notes. ... which among other things suggests that girls are brighter than boys. I still cringe at the memory of being shown a tatty second-carbon typescript of Tom Leonard's "A Priest Got On At Merkland Street" [One of the few stations in the severely-limited Glasgow Metro system. After Glasgow dropped trams sometime in the early sixties, which was at that point stunningly stupid as when the winter fog bit down, this was before they banned coal-burning fires, about the only form of transport that could operate was the trams.] ... in the Glasgow University Men's Union sometime in the late-middle sixties and casually dismissing it as illiterate shite. Difficult to get wronger than that, especially as the line(s), "It was Christmas -- we opened a can of God" appeared there somewhere. On the other hand, much good did it ever do me, I really *was* the first person to review D.M.Black. I think bound-into the Hamilton genes is something singularly self-destructive. :-( Robin From Thom424 Thu Jan 1 10:04:16 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:04:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" Message-ID: <11.1f9709e2.2d2590f0@aol.com> From Thom424 Thu Jan 1 10:12:36 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:12:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" Message-ID: <16e.2839b90f.2d2592e4@aol.com> Oops! I don't think the source for that post made it: http://www.themargins.net/bib/B/BK/bk00.html A valuable resource, by the way. Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Thu Jan 1 10:14:25 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:14:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> Message-ID: <00db01c3d079$f1d58b70$60def63f@Helen> I'd like to see the original if you have access ... can you scan it in? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 10:14:42 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:14:42 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> Message-ID: <002401c3d079$fbbc0790$9b188051@MyPC> << Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. >> You're right and I'm even more than usually sloppy in my referencing. The text where Pound writes this was first-published in 1913, and the poem written "three years earlier". Which locates the writing of the Metro pome in 1910, when Pound first crossed the Pond, before Gaudier-Brezka died, before Pound worked as a secretary to WBY, before imagism leave alone vorticism was less than a sparkle in the mind's eye. It was first (book) published in *Lustra*, the same year as *Cathay* (which bloody obviously drew on the Fenollosa MSS) ... ... there ought to be a Guinness Award for Catastrophic Textual Fuck-Ups. Pound wasn't the worst -- for all of me, the prize for +that+ has to be Wyatt's Egerton MS. *** ... closely followed if not preceeded by Auden's Revisions -- consider the Amazing Vanishing Dildo in "In Praise of Limestone" Robin (*** Sorry, take that back -- as Renaissance textual chaos goes, the Blage MS *has* to be the friggin limit. R2.) From marcus Thu Jan 1 10:34:24 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:34:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF3F7B0.1048.18F010@localhost> > > The class-case of a Pound haiku is (which it isn't, though it's > > still a bloody good poem) is "In a Station of the Metro". On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. Does this mean, Bob, that your judgment and your judgment alone is what determines what category something fits into in your taxonomy? Do you see how that is SUBJECTIVE and not objective at all? From marcus Thu Jan 1 10:34:23 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:34:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" In-Reply-To: <0c7101c3cfd7$7ffc8640$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF3F7AF.22519.18ECA8@localhost> On 31 Dec 2003 at 14:51, Bob Grumman wrote: > It's stupid because ridiculously false. It's also tedious. > --Bob G. But this is a claim that poetry, in your view, is smart, true, and interesting. I suppose you realize that that means that not a single mathemaku every written is poetry? After all, mathemaku is stupid, ridiculously false on the face of it (Enjglish has a perfectly good grammar and syntax already; mathematecal operands do nothing to improve it), and extremely tedious. From marcus Thu Jan 1 10:34:24 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:34:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Some December followups In-Reply-To: References: <3FF28C29.28753.4ABA7A@localhost> Message-ID: <3FF3F7B0.19199.18EDCB@localhost> On 31 Dec 2003 at 13:39, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Hmm, well, faux-reasoner that I am,<< This, too, is wrong; just because one commits a bit of faux reasoning doesn't make one a faux reasoner, any more than being wrong about a bit of addition makes one a wrong person, for example. The whole point is to object to the faux reasonING without calling the other person a faux reasonER. > I thought I might compare one set > of skills to another.<< And I thought I might point out why the comparison was inappropriate. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 10:42:44 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:42:44 -0000 Subject: B/C -- Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> <00db01c3d079$f1d58b70$60def63f@Helen> Message-ID: <005401c3d07d$e63cf5b0$9b188051@MyPC> Apologies -- front-channel as i can't seem to reverse-engineer Helen Rugguire's email address. {It's a slow day in hell, which goes back to when a lady-dressed-in-valves tried to zap me with 10,000 volts, which as then was Strathclyde Institute of Technology ... I really should have learned the lesson, steer clear of computers. glum R.} Helen: I think Sam Gwynn and I are both working from a secondary-source. As far as I know, the "original" 20/100 line text of The Metro isn't extant -- if it ever existed. << I'd like to see the original if you have access ... can you scan it in? >> K. Will do. Anon. Well, at least Pound's dubious 1913 "explanation" of how The Metro came to be written. Which believe that if you like. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. From hruggier Thu Jan 1 10:56:03 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:56:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" References: <11.1f9709e2.2d2590f0@aol.com> Message-ID: <017d01c3d07f$c2c48970$60def63f@Helen> Thanks. Perfect! h ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom424 at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" From materials I've been gathering for a course I'll be teaching this spring, I just happen to have this at hand: ?How I Began?. *T.P.?s Weekly*, 6 June, 1913, p. 707. Pound?s description of how he arrived at "In a Station of the Metro" is well-known from his ?Vorticism? essay, but the discussion here precedes that work by fifteen months. He describes the scene in the Metro and his inability to capture it properly until ?only the other night, wondering how I should tell the adventure, it struck me that in Japan where a work of art is not estimated by its acreage and where sixteen syllables [sic] are counted enough for a poem if you arrange and punctuate them properly, one might make a very little poem which would be translated about as follows:?The apparition of these faces in the crowd; / Petals on a wet, black bough?And there, or in some other very old, very quiet civilisation, some one else might understand the significance.? Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 11:22:37 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:22:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000b01c3d065$d994ae60$e8728051@MyPC> Message-ID: <003d01c3d083$78db3170$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > The image of the petal is an image of spring. > > Um ... a dubious generalisation that. My impression of haiku is that many season references are vague. Except that Japanese haijin (haikuists) have a list that specifies what particular season many given words designate. Seems to me a petal would connect more to spring than any other season. Wetness suggests April, at least for most Americans and--I think--Europeans. > > I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > > thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > > people as leaving it. > > Actually, this may be the crunch of our disagreement. Sure, the Metro that > Pound is referring to is a French subway. (Underground? I can never > remember how the terminology plays in the US. Here, the underground is what > trains run in. Under. [What Pound was referencing.] And a subway is what > people use to walk under the road.) > > But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > windows as the train sped along in the dark. > > Hm ... This is one of my all-time favorites and kinda pivotal to an important strand of my take on contemporary poetry--haiku/imagism/minimalism/visual poetry, so I've written about it and thought about it a lot. Yet I'm shocked to see how unreflectingly I imagined the people as emerging from a subway station. Perhaps I can find some critic I read to blame for this. Anyway, I would now say that the poem can be taken anywhere its words allow--that is, to both your pallid faces down in the station and my (Prettier!) rich-hued faces emerging from the station. Yours works better since the title has "In." I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where most of the time people are moving. > Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > copy to hand. It would only show what the poem meant to Pound. > (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) I'm finding all this very interesting. So, any facts would be welcome. Maybe I could add something about the punctuation--it was originally published, I'm pretty sure, with big spaces here and there, so both lines were the same length, so it was to some degree visual. > Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > edit her deceased husband's notes. > > Robin That last I didn't know, and is very interesting. One last question, can anyone tell me if there's any objective way to determine if it's propaganda or poetry? --Bob G. From halvard Thu Jan 1 11:24:30 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:24:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> Message-ID: I've always liked the notion that Pound took this-- Petals on a wet black bough and pumped it up. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 1 11:32:26 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:32:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <003d01c3d083$78db3170$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where { most of the time people are moving. Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving on. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 11:42:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:42:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <3FF3F7B0.1048.18F010@localhost> Message-ID: <006301c3d086$2e626020$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > The class-case of a Pound haiku is (which it isn't, though it's > > > still a bloody good poem) is "In a Station of the Metro". > > On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > Does this mean, Bob, that your judgment and your judgment alone is > what determines what category something fits into in your taxonomy? I have to say that whenever I write something like the above, I think of you, Marcus. No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories. Another factor is that there will always be rival taxonomies in any field. For instance, just as there are many people who think a text must contain rhymes to be considered a poem, there are people who think a text must have 17 syllables to be considered a haiku. My judgement is never the deciding factor any more than one biologist's is in his field. Even if I want it understood (as it would be for a non-verosopath) that my placement of something would be in MY system. I merely want my view considered. > Do you see how that is SUBJECTIVE and not objective at all? Not objective AT ALL? So Robin and I are discussing a truck, maybe? --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 11:50:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:50:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" References: <3FF3F7AF.22519.18ECA8@localhost> Message-ID: <006f01c3d087$5194bb50$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > It's stupid because ridiculously false. It's also tedious. > > --Bob G. > > But this is a claim that poetry, in your view, is smart, true, and > interesting. No, Marcus. I made two claims: (1) the text is stupid, and (2) it is not a poem (according to my definition of poetry). You tend to conflate claims in this way a great deal, which is moronic, although that doesn't make you a moron. >I suppose you realize that that means that not a single > mathemaku every written is poetry? After all, mathemaku is stupid, > ridiculously false on the face of it (English has a perfectly good > grammar and syntax already; mathematical operands do nothing to > improve it), All the above is irrelevant but the last is wrong--mathematical operands improve English by increasing the way things can be said, and variety is objectively a virtue in the arts. > and extremely tedious. Not all math, just such mathematical expressions as "1 + 1 is unequal to 3," repeated in different ways such as "the sum of two ones is not three." --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 12:06:05 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1c3.1389bcce.2d258774@cs.com> Message-ID: <00e801c3d089$8b85bb00$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the people as leaving it. --Bob G. A Metro station is underground, not above it. The poem is set "in" a station. Just to be argumentative, I would suggest that the stairs out of a subway station are in it. Hovwever, I'm afraid I'll have to drop my interpretation because the petals are ON a bough. The narrator is moving into the crowd, I would presume, but the faces must be stable. This bothers me, because it makes the poem less Persephoneac. I guess I'd say that at the archetypal level, the narrator is discovering the spring within Hades just before it emerges. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 12:10:57 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:10:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: Message-ID: <011701c3d08a$393206f0$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in > { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where > { most of the time people are moving. > > Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're > standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals > temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving > on. > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. Yes, the "temporariness" is there, another thing I didn't pick up on. Thank you, Hal. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 12:18:29 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:18:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough References: <200401011421.i01EL31G018483@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <012a01c3d08b$46d03e70$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hey, guess what--new-poetry already has a good exchange going, with the emphasis on "exchange," and the new year isn't yet a day-old! I'm expanding a good deal due to posts like the following. Warning: I'm going to plagiarize ALL OF YOU PEOPLE! --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough > (In Florida, alligator eyes binocularscope on the limpid skim. No > library to hand.) > > Misquoted: > ---------------------------------------- > The apparition of those faces in a crowd > Petals on a wet black bough. > ---------------------------------------- > > The train rolls to a halt. > Upon the sodden platform, the classic Chinese ink painting materializes: > A single black bough, no twigs, white petals made of rice paper whiteness. > How millions of times was it painted? Is painted, today (1/1/04)? > > It's not about the season, per se, it's come from (and this is remembered): > > The Undifferentiated Aesthetic Continuum. > > We don't know if Spring, in actuality, was happening; but it will > happen. You can unroll a scroll of Springtime art by Hiroshige > anytime of the year/life. > > EP "painted" this classic subject in quick deft strokes juxted by > 20th century technological vocabulary. > > Thus, the iamb and inherited vocabularies broken. An early order of > business if EP was to reinvent how to write. > > [And Techne makes a Quantum Leap. Poetry would not be written, > again, quite as it had been, contra to some opionator I've stumbled > over, who doesn't want such leaps made because he can't make them so > then he'll just say they don't happen. How the imagination could > direct the mind evolved.] > > Square Dollar Press was the first publisher of the work on the ideogram. > > How Pound translated the ideogram into English versus how classic > Chinese poets writing in English today, like Yun Wang, would be a > worthwhile inquiry. It doesn't seem that the compliment is returned, > i.e., English doesn't change the poetics of Chinese; Chinese is like > a useful word virus changed by English. > > The introduction of the Ideogram is for EP as profound an > introduction of a mind tool as was the syllogistical reasoning that > informed sonateering. Another one would be the CuTuP. > > [IMHO, of course. This is my creative misreading.] > > R - - - Lion > > > > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Helen Ruggieri) > > 2. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Robin Hamilton) > > 3. Re: Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 4. Re: Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 5. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 6. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Bob Grumman) > > 7. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Robin Hamilton) > > 8. Happy New Year! (Halvard Johnson) > > 9. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Bob Grumman) > > 10. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Robin Hamilton) > > 11. "New Year" (Halvard Johnson) > > 12. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 13. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 1 > >From: "Helen Ruggieri" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:31:44 -0500 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >What he did catch was the image - and worse - that moment of spontaneous > >composition (translated by Ginsbery - see it - say it) > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 1:31 PM > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > > > > > >> From: "Helen Ruggieri" > >> > >> > Mary McNeill Fenolossa was married to Ernest Fenolossa (a Harvard > >scholar > >> > who went to Japan to teach and collected lots of art which I believe is > >in > >> > the Boston Museum of Fine Arts) and she is the one who gave Ezra Pound > >her > >> > husband's papers (haiku in the process of becoming) to work on > > > translations > > > > of Chinese and Japanese poetry. Pound went on to invent imagism mostly > > > > because of his introduction to the Japanese papers of Fenollosa. > > > > > > Thanks for this, Helen -- I was in the process of constructing a > >> particularly virulent segue, when I caught your temperate post. > >> > >> For the record, the text that Mary MF passed on to Pound was (what ended > >up > >> as, published by New Directions) +The Chinese Written Character As A > >Medium > >> For Poetry+. > >> > >> {Also, and i suppose i really shouldn't digress, the friggin' Noh plays > >that > >> Ole Ez translated while he was working as William Butler Yeats's > >secretoory > >> in the early years of the 20thC. ) > >> > >> Among several distinct ironies is that Fenelossa was a friggin' scholar of > >> +Japanese+ *painting*, not Chinese literature -- Bernard Karlgren was > >prolly > >> the best of the Western scholars who dealt with the ideogram business at > >> that point of time. > >> > >> ... and that's even before we get to Who Is The Chinese Translator -- > >Pound > >> or Waley? > >> > >> Imagism, Hilda? > >> > >> Angels weep territory. > >> > >> :-( > >> > >> R. > >> > >> (Actually, I think you over-simplify the relation between haiku, > >Fenellosa, > >> and Pound. > >> > >> The class-case of a Pound haiku is (which it isn't, though it's still a > >> bloody good poem) is "In a Station of the Metro". > >> > >> The one totally strict Pound haiku (seasonal reference) -- "The Jewel > >> Stair's Grievance" -- Ezra wrote +before+ he got his claws on the > >Fenellosa > >> MS. > >> > >> > >> > >> R2. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 2 > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:40:35 -0000 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> "petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal? > >> > >> --Bob G. > > > >... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian > >commuters were lighted by electrolamps. > > > >It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > > > >R. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 3 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:00:25 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_19f.1f042dc1.2d24bd19_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 12/31/2003 2:09:29 PM Central Standard Time, > >cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > >> > >> Rachel I'm glad to see you're still working on Dick.... > >> Interesting that Sam equates him to Richard III, > >> to me your treatment renders him more like Richard II > >> (mixed with Altman's Secret Honor).... > >> > >> New Year to you > >> > >> Chris > >I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us now by > >Shakespeare. Jimmy Carter was Richard II. > > > >Has everyone seen "Looking for Richard," by the way? A very interesting > >film! > > > >--part1_19f.1f042dc1.2d24bd19_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 12/31/2003= > > 2:09:29 PM Central Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >NT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S= > >IZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >Rachel I'm glad to see you're still working on Dick....
> >Interesting that Sam equates him to Richard III,
> >to me your treatment renders him more like Richard II
> >(mixed with Altman's Secret Honor)....
> >
> >New Year to you
> >
> >Chris

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us= > > now by Shakespeare.  Jimmy Carter was Richard II.
> >
> >Has everyone seen "Looking for Richard," by the way?  A very interestin= > >g film! > > > >--part1_19f.1f042dc1.2d24bd19_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 4 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:04:32 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_197.2424ea47.2d24be10_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 12/31/2003 1:08:46 PM Central Standard Time, > >rloden at concentric.net writes: > >> Sam, Nixon at Pat's funeral stays with me too. One of the most amazing > >> things I have ever seen on film. His face literally falls apart. It's > >> terrifying and strangely beautiful. > >> > >> Thanks for kind words on the poems. Unfortunately I am still writing > >> them, since Dick persists in thinking that he has business in these > >> parts. > >> > >> Rachel > > > >Well, why not? Richard III is still news too, if google is any guide. > > > >--part1_197.2424ea47.2d24be10_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 12/31/2003= > > 1:08:46 PM Central Standard Time, rloden at concentric.net writes: >T COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI= > >ZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Sam, Nixon at Pat's funeral sta= > >ys with me too. One of the most amazing
> >things I have ever seen on film. His face literally falls apart. It's
> >terrifying and strangely beautiful.
> >
> >Thanks for kind words on the poems. Unfortunately I am still writing
> >them, since Dick persists in thinking that he has business in these
> >parts.
> >
> >Rachel

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">
> >Well, why not?  Richard III is still news too, if google is any guide.<= > >/FONT> > > > >--part1_197.2424ea47.2d24be10_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 5 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:04:48 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_4b.3869efcc.2d24be20_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 12/31/2003 4:41:01 PM Central Standard Time, > >robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > >> > >> >"petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal? > >> > > >> >--Bob G. > >> > >> ... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian > >> commuters were lighted by electrolamps. > >> > >> It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > >> R. > >What about? > >Slippeth bus and sloppeth us. > >Lhude sing goddamn! > > > >--part1_4b.3869efcc.2d24be20_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 12/31/2003= > > 4:41:01 PM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: >FONT> >fffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><= > >BR> > >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >>"petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal?
> >>
> >>--Bob G.
> >
> >... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian >R> > >commuters were lighted by electrolamps.
> >
> >It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland.
> >
> >R.

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">What about?
> >Slippeth bus and sloppeth us.
> >Lhude sing goddamn! > > > >--part1_4b.3869efcc.2d24be20_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 6 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 21:23:30 -0500 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> > "petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal? > >> > > >> > --Bob G. > >> > >> ... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian > >> commuters were lighted by electrolamps. > > > >So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > >regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > >stated or implied). > > > >> It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > >> R. > > > >Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > >from. > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 7 > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 03:57:28 -0000 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > >> regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > >> stated or implied). > > > >Frankly, Bob, I just don't get this. > > > >What is it about the poem that locates it in spring? > > > >April may be the cruelest month breeding lilacs out of a dead land (though > >for terminal hell give me "Childe Roland" any day) but "In a Station of the > >Metro"? > > > >I think you're confusing this with "The Jewel Stair's Grievance", which > >actually +does+ have a seasonal (spring) reference. > > > >> > It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > > >> > R. > >> > >> Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > >> from. > > > >That hell is other people is *so* sixties, regardless of the season. > > > >JPS > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 8 > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: "New-Poetry" > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:29:00 -0500 > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Here in NYC, the New Year is 25 minutes old. > > > >Happy New Year, everyone. > > > >Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >The Sonnet Project: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 9 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 07:00:37 -0500 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> > So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > >> > regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > >> > stated or implied). > >> > >> Frankly, Bob, I just don't get this. > >> > >> What is it about the poem that locates it in spring? > >> > >> April may be the cruelest month breeding lilacs out of a dead land (though > >> for terminal hell give me "Childe Roland" any day) but "In a Station of > >the > >> Metro"? > > > >The image of the petal is an image of spring. The faces are equated with > >it, which makes them spring. It seems to me that any word in a haiku that > >identifies what season it is about is a season word, and this one is about > >spring, the discovery of spring in the faces in the crowd. > > > >> I think you're confusing this with "The Jewel Stair's Grievance", which > >> actually +does+ have a seasonal (spring) reference. > >> > >> > > It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > > > >> > > R. > >> > > >> > Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > >> > from. > >> > >> That hell is other people is *so* sixties, regardless of the season. > > > >I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > >thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > >people as leaving it. > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 10 > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:50:35 -0000 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> The image of the petal is an image of spring. > > > >Um ... a dubious generalisation that. > > > >> I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > >> thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > >> people as leaving it. > > > >Actually, this may be the crunch of our disagreement. Sure, the Metro that > >Pound is referring to is a French subway. (Underground? I can never > >remember how the terminology plays in the US. Here, the underground is what > >trains run in. Under. [What Pound was referencing.] And a subway is what > >people use to walk under the road.) > > > >But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > >white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > >windows as the train sped along in the dark. > > > >Hm ... > > > >Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > >Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > >copy to hand. > > > >(Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > >+A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > >this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > >is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) > > > >Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > >it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > >edit her deceased husband's notes. > > > >Robin > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 11 > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: "New-Poetry" > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 08:15:59 -0500 > >Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Year" > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >NEW YEAR > > > >Cardinals fly up > >from the edge of the near > >field, another > >year's luck. > > > >The haiku poet gives > >us a morning gift: > > > > Starry night: > > she squeezes in between > > her husband and her ex > > > >A road, a fence, a field. > > > >A table on which a book > >lies open: History > >of the Great American > >Fortunes by Gustavus Myers. > > > >A glimpse out the window > >of gray and white > >cat. I open the door > >and in it comes. > > > >This is the first day, > >unlike any other. > > > > for Lynda > > > > > >Lynda and I met at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts back in the late > >80s, got engaged there the next year, and have been back a number of times > >since. VCCA is an arts colony about eleven miles north of Lynchburg and > >the James River, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. We owe the place a lot. > > > >The poem above comes from one of our first joint residencies there, and the > >haiku poet was Dee Everts, who still lives and works here in NYC, I believe. > >The association of sighting cardinals with New Year's luck began, as far as > >I know, with Chicago painter Tony Phillips and the late Jerry Badanes, > >who would wander the premises and nearby roads until they'd seen their > >New Year's cardinal. One year this took them nearly all day. > > > >Hal "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." > > > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >The Sonnet Project: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 12 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:23:48 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_1c3.1389bcce.2d258774_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, > >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> > >> I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > >> thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > >> people as leaving it. > >> > >> --Bob G. > >A Metro station is underground, not above it. The poem is set "in" a > >station. > > > >--part1_1c3.1389bcce.2d258774_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/1/2004 6= > >:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: >NT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S= > >IZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I >R> > >thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the >R> > >people as leaving it.
> >
> >--Bob G.

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">A Metro station is underground, not above it.  The poem is set "= > >in" a station. > > > >--part1_1c3.1389bcce.2d258774_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 13 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:30:44 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_163.2a3229d2.2d258914_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, > >robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > >> > >> But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > >> white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > >> windows as the train sped along in the dark. > >> > >> Hm ... > >> > >> Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > >> Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > >> copy to hand. > >> > >> (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > >> +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > >> this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > >> is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) > >> > >> Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > >> it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > >> edit her deceased husband's notes. > >> > >> Robin > >> > > > >Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after > >another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the > >single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't > >think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the > >next train to arrive. > > > >--part1_163.2a3229d2.2d258914_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/1/2004 6= > >:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: >NT> >fff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> >> > >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous >> > >white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the
> >windows as the train sped along in the dark.
> >
> >Hm ...
> >
> >Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before
> >Pound chopped it back?  Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone h= > >as a
> >copy to hand.
> >
> >(Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's >R> > >+A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103.  A bit long to type-out, and frankly a= > >t
> >this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it.  But if anyone (= > >Bob?)
> >is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.)
> >
> >Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". = > > And
> >it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to<= > >BR> > >edit her deceased husband's notes.
> >
> >Robin
> >

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">
> >Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after= > > another.  Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to > >20, then=20= > >to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all.= > >  I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just > >people=20= > >waiting for the next train to arrive. > > > >--part1_163.2a3229d2.2d258914_boundary-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 12:44:20 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:44:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <18e.243373ed.2d25b674@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 10:36:05 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in > { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, > where > { most of the time people are moving. > > Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're > standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals > temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving > on. > > Hal This is very literal, Hal. Don't you read "petals" as synecdoche for "blossoms"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 12:46:02 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:46:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <83.26662b9.2d25b6da@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 11:07:18 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > The narrator is moving into the crowd, I would presume, but the faces must > be stable. This bothers me, because it makes the poem less Persephoneac. I > guess I'd say that at the archetypal level, the narrator is discovering the > spring within Hades just before it emerges. > > --Bob G. > I think he said he had just stepped off the Metro car when he saw the faces. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 13:09:42 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:09:42 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough References: <200401011421.i01EL31G018483@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <007701c3d092$6dffa920$9b188051@MyPC> > EP "painted" this classic subject in quick deft strokes juxted by > 20th century technological vocabulary. No he freakin *didn't*, Richard -- about the one secure thing you can say about The Metro is that Pound wrote the pome well before he even tangentially got involved with either Chinese/Japanese painting or calligraphy. Please check your dates before leaving the convenience. R. From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 13:25:42 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:25:42 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <3FF3F7B0.1048.18F010@localhost> <006301c3d086$2e626020$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009401c3d094$aa76b770$9b188051@MyPC> Bob: << people will argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories. >> Hard cases make bad law -- isn't this a Renaissance cliche that goes back to Blackstone? Actually, if you think about it, the bloody idiom only makes even the *remotest* kind of sense in terms of UK law rather than the Code Napoleon. Or that, ho hum ... R. From mandolin Thu Jan 1 13:32:41 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:32:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jon Corelis at PoemHunter Message-ID: Don't know if other list-members get the Poem of the Day email from PoemHunter.com, but today it's Jon's translation of Sappho's "On What is Best." Nice way to start the year. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 13:40:46 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:40:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <83.26662b9.2d25b6da@cs.com> Message-ID: <019b01c3d096$c553c860$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In a message dated 1/1/2004 11:07:18 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: The narrator is moving into the crowd, I would presume, but the faces must be stable. This bothers me, because it makes the poem less Persephoneac. I guess I'd say that at the archetypal level, the narrator is discovering the spring within Hades just before it emerges. --Bob G. I think he said he had just stepped off the Metro car when he saw the faces. Okay, Sam, make it "the narrator can be discovering the spring in Hades for the reader sensitive to archetypality in poems, even if not necessarily for himself." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 1 13:51:55 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:51:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <18e.243373ed.2d25b674@cs.com> Message-ID: To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. Hal { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where { most of the time people are moving. Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving on. Hal This is very literal, Hal. Don't you read "petals" as synecdoche for "blossoms"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 14:42:15 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:42:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <35.41f302ab.2d25d217@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:56:06 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan > in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals > (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're > wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes > take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, > a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- > gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- > fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy > sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. > > So, color me literal, Sam. > I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 14:42:44 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:42:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: Message-ID: <01df01c3d09f$6d9d2ae0$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. Hal Plus, faces are much more like petals than like blossoms, for me. This is very literal, Hal. Don't you read "petals" as synecdoche for "blossoms"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 1 15:10:59 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:10:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <35.41f302ab.2d25d217@cs.com> Message-ID: Stretching's good, Sam. Drifting petals couple well with those drifting ghost-like faces in the Metro (apparitional?). Both paused for a moment between here and wherever. Hal To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 17:28:11 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 17:28:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: Message-ID: <003d01c3d0b6$8a89fc70$60efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Stretching's good, Sam. Drifting petals couple well with those drifting ghost-like faces in the Metro (apparitional?). Both paused for a moment between here and wherever. Hal Plus, the petals are ON the branch not OF the branch.--Bob G. To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joncpoetics Thu Jan 1 17:32:00 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:32:00 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jon Corelis at PoemHunter Message-ID: Thanks for noticing that. In fact, I'm not signed up for the poem of the day there, so I didn't even know myself that one of mine had been selected. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From anny.ballardini Thu Jan 1 17:37:38 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:37:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jon Corelis at PoemHunter References: Message-ID: <003801c3d0b7$dc4974e0$c8607550@anny> And an excellent choice, I'd say. Anny Ballardini From: "Jon Corelis" To: > Thanks for noticing that. In fact, I'm not signed up for the poem of the > day there, so I didn't even know myself that one of mine had been selected. > > ================================================== > > Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics > > ================================================== > > _________________________________________________________________ > Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wjbat Thu Jan 1 19:00:06 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:00:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <35.41f302ab.2d25d217@cs.com> Message-ID: <9F6251EE-3CB6-11D8-8D03-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Thursday, January 1, 2004, at 02:42 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan.? If I > read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of > blossoms.? Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. I haven't been to Japan, Sam-roshi, but I've always, since I was 12 and saw it for the first time, read that line as Hal does. Blossoms are too complicated for that sweet austere vision. One petal at a time. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 912 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 19:45:32 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:45:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <3a.42f6c974.2d26192c@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > > I haven't been to Japan, Sam-roshi, but I've always, since I was 12 and > saw it for the first time, read that line as Hal does. Blossoms are > too complicated for that sweet austere vision. One petal at a time. > > Wendy This was a guy who was studying, as well as Asian poetry, Yeats, for whom metonymy/synecdoche are prime tropes. So instead of the simple image of blossoms on a branch you want sticky petals on a Velcro bough? Still, here's what Ez sez: "The Japanese have had the sense of exploration. They have understood the beauty of this sort of knowing. A Chinaman said long ago that if a man can?t say what he has to say in twelve lines he had better keep quiet. The Japanese have evolved the still shorter form of the hokku. 'The fallen blossom flies back to its branch: A butterfly.'" So mebbe you're right after all. Simple Sammy-san Who Stands Corrected -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 21:10:47 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:10:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <9F6251EE-3CB6-11D8-8D03-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <013301c3d0d5$a336e0c0$60efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Is it just because the Pound poem is one of my favorites or are people really making great observations? Yes, one at a time! --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wendy Battin To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS On Thursday, January 1, 2004, at 02:42 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. I haven't been to Japan, Sam-roshi, but I've always, since I was 12 and saw it for the first time, read that line as Hal does. Blossoms are too complicated for that sweet austere vision. One petal at a time. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope Thu Jan 1 11:06:40 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:06:40 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough In-Reply-To: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: As per usual, you argue within your own parameter. I don't argue out of ego. Read the post entire: It's a creative misreading, but an extremely useful one. So, "he" freakin did, even if that wasn't his ostensible experienced intention. What you want to do is get an "academical" fix. How do you really know know what Pound saw and when he saw it? You imply that Pound could not possibly have known at all at any level whatsoever about classic Chinese ink painting. He had a whirligig voracious mind. Notice: you don't come out and refute the painting idea, what you do is argue that such a critique should be disregarded because you can't make it fit your equations. But your response gives me the opportunity to tweak the original text: At 10:47 AM +0800 1/1/04, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >How Pound translated the ideogram into English versus how classic >Chinese poets writing in English today, like Yun Wang, relate to >Pound's approach would be a worthwhile inquiry. It doesn't seem >that the compliment is returned, i.e., English doesn't change the >poetics of Chinese; Chinese ideogram as per Pound is like a useful >word virus changing the syntax of perception in English. > >The introduction of the Ideogram is for EP as profound an >introduction of a mind tool as was the syllogistical reasoning that >informed sonateering. Another one would be the CuTuP. > >[IMHO, of course. This is my creative misreading.] For me, and Mr. Grumman, it seems, the compositional acts that got Pound to the final haiku are not as pertinent as the implications of what the _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ puts into motion for poets/poems who encounter it. Yun Wang dissed Pound, by the way. Every American attempt to translate the Canon she greeted with contempt. Tell me that what _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ pictures in the mind's eye isn't what the post recognized. All of this leads me to recognize, one more thing: This poem leapt away from the poet's hand and took on a life of its own. The Haiku Archetype appropriated Uncle Ez for its own purposes! R - - - Lion > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "Robin Hamilton" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:09:42 -0000 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> EP "painted" this classic subject in quick deft strokes juxted by >> 20th century technological vocabulary. > >No he freakin *didn't*, Richard -- about the one secure thing you can say >about The Metro is that Pound wrote the pome well before he even >tangentially got involved with either Chinese/Japanese painting or >calligraphy. > >Please check your dates before leaving the convenience. > > > >R. > -- From DICK Fri Jan 2 14:14:22 2004 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 14:14:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. Message-ID: <200401021914.i02JEZF7150134@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:21:03 -0500 ************** >>I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us now by >>Shakespeare. Jimmy Carter was Richard II. >> Sam, your politics is showing. Richard From Rsgwynn1 Fri Jan 2 16:58:12 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 16:58:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. Message-ID: <84.1fc15545.2d274374@cs.com> In a message dated 1/2/2004 1:15:53 PM Central Standard Time, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes: > ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:21:03 -0500 ************** > >>I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us now > by > >>Shakespeare. Jimmy Carter was Richard II. > >> > Sam, your politics is showing. > > Richard Richard V, you didn't ask me about G. Bush--Bottom or Ornery V? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Jan 2 17:32:13 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:32:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > What you want to do is get an "academical" fix. How do you really > know know what Pound saw and when he saw it? You imply that Pound > could not possibly have known at all at any level whatsoever about > classic Chinese ink painting. He had a whirligig voracious mind. > Notice: you don't come out and refute the painting idea, what you do > is argue that such a critique should be disregarded because you can't > make it fit your equations. Plus, he may have painted a Chinese picture WITHOUT knowing anything about Chinese painting. > But your response gives me the opportunity to tweak the original text: > > At 10:47 AM +0800 1/1/04, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > >How Pound translated the ideogram into English versus how classic > >Chinese poets writing in English today, like Yun Wang, relate to > >Pound's approach would be a worthwhile inquiry. It doesn't seem > >that the compliment is returned, i.e., English doesn't change the > >poetics of Chinese; Chinese ideogram as per Pound is like a useful > >word virus changing the syntax of perception in English. > > > >The introduction of the Ideogram is for EP as profound an > >introduction of a mind tool as was the syllogistical reasoning that > >informed sonateering. Another one would be the CuTuP. > > > >[IMHO, of course. This is my creative misreading.] > > > For me, and Mr. Grumman, it seems, the compositional acts that got > Pound to the final haiku are not as pertinent as the implications of > what the _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ puts into motion for > poets/poems who encounter it. Absolutely. > Yun Wang dissed Pound, by the way. Every American attempt to > translate the Canon she greeted with contempt. > > Tell me that what _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ pictures in the > mind's eye isn't what the post recognized. > > All of this leads me to recognize, one more thing: This poem leapt > away from the poet's hand and took on a life of its own. The Haiku > Archetype appropriated Uncle Ez for its own purposes! > > R - - - Lion I'm with you thar. And with what I think is our agreement that the poem's meaning is a cluster of equally valid meanings, none contradicting the others in any significant way. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 3 05:43:43 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:43:43 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005401c3d1e6$752be4c0$b7aa8051@MyPC> Belatedly (having just got my OCR scannner to work again) here's the (full?) text of Pound's comments on the composition of the poem: << In a Station of the Metro Pound gave an account of the composition of this poem in 'How I Began' (T.P.'s Weekly, 6 June 1913, 707) and in the essay 'Vorticism' (Fortnightly Review, 1 Sept. 1914, 465, 467, reprinted in Gaudier-Brzeska, 1916). In the second of these Pound writes: " Three years ago in Paris I got out of a 'metro' train at La Concorde, and saw suddenly a beautiful face, and then another and another, and then a beautiful child's face, and then another beautiful woman, and I tried all day to find words for what this had meant to me, and I could not find any words that seemed to me worthy, or as lovely as that sudden emotion. And that evening, as I went home along Rue Raynouard, I was still trying and I found, suddenly, the expression. I do not mean that I found words, but there came an equation ... not in speech, but in little splotches of colour.... That is to say, my experience in Paris should have gone into paint. If instead of colour I had perceived sound or planes in relation, I should have expressed it in music or in sculpture. Colour was, in that instance, the 'primary pigment': I mean that it was the first adequate equation that came into consciousness. ... The 'one image poem' is a form of superposition, that is to say, it is one idea set on top of another. I found it useful in getting out of the impasse in which I had been left by my metro emotion. I wrote a thirty-line poem, and destroyed it because it was what we call work 'of second intensity'. Six months later I made a poem half that length; a year later I made the following hokku-like sentence: [quotes 'In a Station of the Metro']. ... In a poem of this sort one is trying to record the precise instant when a thing outward and objective transforms itself, or darts into a thing inward and subjective. " >> Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 08:18:35 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:18:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005401c3d1e6$752be4c0$b7aa8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <013301c3d1fc$17e9fc00$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the Pound stuff, Robin. I must have enough data from you and others to write a 120-page book on the poem! I'm in a bit of a daze about it at the moment, though. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro > Belatedly (having just got my OCR scannner to work again) here's the (full?) > text of Pound's comments on the composition of the poem: > > << > In a Station of the Metro > > Pound gave an account of the composition of this poem in 'How I Began' > (T.P.'s Weekly, 6 June 1913, 707) and in the essay 'Vorticism' (Fortnightly > Review, 1 Sept. 1914, 465, 467, reprinted in Gaudier-Brzeska, 1916). In the > second of these Pound writes: > > " > Three years ago in Paris I got out of a 'metro' train at La Concorde, and > saw suddenly a beautiful face, and then another and another, and then a > beautiful child's face, and then another beautiful woman, and I tried all > day to find words for what this had meant to me, and I could not find any > words that seemed to me worthy, or as lovely as that sudden emotion. And > that evening, as I went home along Rue Raynouard, I was still trying and I > found, suddenly, the expression. I do not mean that I found words, but there > came an equation ... not in speech, but in little splotches of colour.... > That is to say, my experience in Paris should have gone into paint. If > instead of colour I had perceived sound or planes in relation, I should have > expressed it in music or in sculpture. Colour was, in that instance, the > 'primary pigment': I mean that it was the first adequate equation that came > into consciousness. > > ... The 'one image poem' is a form of superposition, that is to say, it is > one idea set on top of another. I found it useful in getting out of the > impasse in which I had been left by my metro emotion. I wrote a thirty-lin e > poem, and destroyed it because it was what we call work 'of second > intensity'. Six months later I made a poem half that length; a year later I > made the following hokku-like sentence: [quotes 'In a Station of the > Metro']. > > ... In a poem of this sort one is trying to record the precise instant when > a thing outward and objective transforms itself, or darts into a thing > inward and subjective. > " > >> > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus Sat Jan 3 08:54:11 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:54:11 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <200401031342.i03Dg21G023295@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > I have to say that whenever I write something like the above, I think of > you, Marcus. No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will > argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories.<< But that's neither the issue nor the question, Bob. You claim your taxonomy is "objective" and yet you say such subjective things as "but for me it's a haiku". Well, that "for me" business is just what makes it subjective, you see -- as if someone were to say "Well, it's true for me" of the earth being flat, say. You can BELIEVE what you like, of course, but belief is subjective, not objective. > My judgement is never the deciding factor any more than one biologist's is > in his field. Even if I want it understood (as it would be for a > non-verosopath) that my placement of something would be in MY system. I > merely want my view considered.<< More name-calling -- you just can't resist, can you? But in the midst of your name-calling you once again pronounce just how subjective YOUR system is by your use of "MY system" and "merely want my view considered". Objectiveness requires a scale by which something can be measured, and a tool to measure it with that anyone can use. No one familiar with thermometers claims that they merely want their view considered that it's 90 degrees when everyone else reads the thermometer at 70. They may say, with admitted subjectivity, that they are hot even though the thermometer reads 70, but that is not a claim that the temperature is actually 90. Marcus From marcus Sat Jan 3 09:03:13 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:03:13 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" Message-ID: <200401031351.i03Dp41G023395@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > ... I made two claims: (1) the text is stupid, and (2) it is not a > poem (according to my definition of poetry)....<< But "according to my definition of poetry" is precisely what makes is subjective rather than objective, you see, Bob! And here you are once again reinforcing the subjectivity of your claim while trying implicitly to argue that your claim is objective. It won't wash, Bob -- there is no way reasonably to claim that your subjective view is objective, though it is clear that you think you can use the "The Big Lie" logical fallacy of endless repetition to try to make it so. > which is moronic, although that doesn't make you a > moron. More name-calling -- you're clearly name-calling here because you're still trying to defend your view that anyone who disagrees with your view of anything is attacking you personally. In the context of your misunderstanding about what constitutes civil discussion, your locution here constitutes name- calling. > ... mathematical operands > improve English by increasing the way things can be said, and variety is > objectively a virtue in the arts.< Mathematical operands as English syntax and grammar symbols are merely substitutes for the English syntax and grammar symbols -- they add nothing but a fractious difficulty to the reading of the English words, in the same way "f u cn reed dis y shd i splchk?" adds merely fractious difficulty. The conventions of the language are there for ease of use between the writer and reader; the claim that it is the writer's job to make it hard for the reader to understand makes me put forward this counter-claim: those who do not write clearly are either doing bad writing or are up to mischief. Marcus From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 3 09:05:35 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:05:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <200401031342.i03Dg21G023295@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <005401c3d202$a9320120$a5607550@anny> It is with the utmost satisfaction we can notice that years go by and things remain just the same, :-) Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome If you go with rivers, not roads, the trip takes longer and you weave and see a lot more. (from Houses) Richard Hugo From: > > On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > > I have to say that whenever I write something like the above, I think of > > you, Marcus. No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will > > argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories.<< > > But that's neither the issue nor the question, Bob. You claim your taxonomy > is "objective" and yet you say such subjective things as "but for me it's a > haiku". Well, that "for me" business is just what makes it subjective, you > see -- as if someone were to say "Well, it's true for me" of the earth being > flat, say. You can BELIEVE what you like, of course, but belief is subjective, > not objective. > > > My judgement is never the deciding factor any more than one biologist's is > > in his field. Even if I want it understood (as it would be for a > > non-verosopath) that my placement of something would be in MY system. I > > merely want my view considered.<< > > More name-calling -- you just can't resist, can you? But in the midst of your > name-calling you once again pronounce just how subjective YOUR system is by > your use of "MY system" and "merely want my view considered". Objectiveness > requires a scale by which something can be measured, and a tool to measure it > with that anyone can use. No one familiar with thermometers claims that they > merely want their view considered that it's 90 degrees when everyone else > reads the thermometer at 70. They may say, with admitted subjectivity, that > they are hot even though the thermometer reads 70, but that is not a claim > that the temperature is actually 90. > > Marcus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard Sat Jan 3 09:47:04 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:47:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <005401c3d202$a9320120$a5607550@anny> Message-ID: { It is with the utmost satisfaction we can notice that years go by and things { remain just the same, :-) { { Anny Ballardini We call those the eternal verities, Anny. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From hruggier Sat Jan 3 10:54:37 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:54:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005401c3d1e6$752be4c0$b7aa8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <010501c3d211$e41c4200$8ddef63f@Helen> Thanksk, Robin - worth the wait! h ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro > Belatedly (having just got my OCR scannner to work again) here's the (full?) > text of Pound's comments on the composition of the poem: > > << > In a Station of the Metro > > Pound gave an account of the composition of this poem in 'How I Began' > (T.P.'s Weekly, 6 June 1913, 707) and in the essay 'Vorticism' (Fortnightly > Review, 1 Sept. 1914, 465, 467, reprinted in Gaudier-Brzeska, 1916). In the > second of these Pound writes: > > " > Three years ago in Paris I got out of a 'metro' train at La Concorde, and > saw suddenly a beautiful face, and then another and another, and then a > beautiful child's face, and then another beautiful woman, and I tried all > day to find words for what this had meant to me, and I could not find any > words that seemed to me worthy, or as lovely as that sudden emotion. And > that evening, as I went home along Rue Raynouard, I was still trying and I > found, suddenly, the expression. I do not mean that I found words, but there > came an equation ... not in speech, but in little splotches of colour.... > That is to say, my experience in Paris should have gone into paint. If > instead of colour I had perceived sound or planes in relation, I should have > expressed it in music or in sculpture. Colour was, in that instance, the > 'primary pigment': I mean that it was the first adequate equation that came > into consciousness. > > ... The 'one image poem' is a form of superposition, that is to say, it is > one idea set on top of another. I found it useful in getting out of the > impasse in which I had been left by my metro emotion. I wrote a thirty-line > poem, and destroyed it because it was what we call work 'of second > intensity'. Six months later I made a poem half that length; a year later I > made the following hokku-like sentence: [quotes 'In a Station of the > Metro']. > > ... In a poem of this sort one is trying to record the precise instant when > a thing outward and objective transforms itself, or darts into a thing > inward and subjective. > " > >> > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 12:03:33 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:03:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" References: <200401031351.i03Dp41G023395@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <01c901c3d21b$85e3bab0$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > ... I made two claims: (1) the text is stupid, and (2) it is not a > > poem (according to my definition of poetry)....<< > But "according to my definition of poetry" is precisely what makes is > subjective rather than objective, you see, Bob! Note how the verosopath ignores his having been refuted and jumps to another point. He's wrong, to boot. Two people can have objective taxonomies that disagree with each other. I can say all haiku have one to twenty syllables, which is objectively determinable even by your moronic standards. Someone else can use different numbers and be equally objective yet disagree with me. I can say whales are fish because, among other things, they live in water, something that can be objectively determined; someone else can say whales are mammals because they bear living offspring, something also objectively determinable. Two objective taxonomies. > And here you are once again > reinforcing the subjectivity of your claim while trying implicitly to argue > that your claim is objective. Wrong again. I was showing that you misread me. > It won't wash, Bob -- there is no way reasonably > to claim that your subjective view is objective, though it is clear that you > think you can use the "The Big Lie" logical fallacy of endless repetition to > try to make it so. > > which is moronic, although that doesn't make you a > > moron. > > More name-calling -- you're clearly name-calling here You say that describing a person's actions negatively is not name-calling. I guess that's only when you do it. >because you're still > trying to defend your view that anyone who disagrees with your view of > anything is attacking you personally. Do support this view by quoting me claiming anyone other than you was, when disagreeing with me, attacking me personally. I am actually only saying that a person who calls another's actions stupid and thinks his description has nothing to do with the person whose actions he is describing is wrong. > In the context of your misunderstanding > about what constitutes civil discussion, your locution here constitutes name- > calling. What makes you an authority on what civil discussion is? As for me, I have been quite ready to agree that I do not treat you civilly. But I have no real opinion on what civil discussion is; my interests lie elsewhere. The verosopath, however, is obsessed with seeming more civil than those whose views he attempts to sabotage because he knows that civility, by his standards, is the only area he has a chance of outdoing his opponents in. > > ... mathematical operands > > improve English by increasing the way things can be said, and variety is > > objectively a virtue in the arts.< > > Mathematical operands as English syntax and grammar symbols are merely > substitutes for the English syntax and grammar symbols -- they add nothing but > a fractious difficulty to the reading of the English words, in the same way "f > u cn reed dis y shd i splchk?" adds merely fractious difficulty. I can think of no reason since I can read it. I found it more interesting than most of what you write. Fun creed dizzy is there, for instance. You might consider that what is difficult varies, and that that which is too simple can be annoying. >The > conventions of the language are there for ease of use between the writer and > reader; the claim that it is the writer's job to make it hard for the reader > to understand makes me put forward this counter-claim: those who do not write > clearly are either doing bad writing or are up to mischief. Right, adding expressive variety to what one says, which I claim to be a valuable thing to do, is the same as claiming "it is the writer's job to make it hard for the reader to understand." Note how the verosopath hardly ever can resist misleadingly restating what an opponent says--or "really" means. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 12:12:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:12:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <200401031342.i03Dg21G023295@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <01cf01c3d21c$bccfad30$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > More name-calling -- you just can't resist, can you? No more than you can resist misrepresenting me and abusing my thinking and otherwise trying to annoy me into breaking decorum by accurately classifying you. A verosopath's main goal is to do just that because he has no way of otherwise winning, in any sense. > But in the midst of your > name-calling you once again pronounce just how subjective YOUR system is by > your use of "MY system" and "merely want my view considered". Objectiveness > requires a scale by which something can be measured, and a tool to measure it > with that anyone can use. No one familiar with thermometers claims that they > merely want their view considered that it's 90 degrees when everyone else > reads the thermometer at 70. They may say, with admitted subjectivity, that > they are hot even though the thermometer reads 70, but that is not a claim > that the temperature is actually 90. > > Marcus No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories. Just as two scientists with two slightly different instruments might argue quite vehemently with each other about the exact temperature some experimental result has occurred at. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 Sat Jan 3 13:29:13 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:29:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> In a message dated 1/3/2004 7:55:38 AM Central Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 14:41:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:41:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> Message-ID: <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. Pound said it was "like" a haiku. What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL Sat Jan 3 14:54:07 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:54:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <1d5.17b0c9f3.2d2877df@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/2004 2:41:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. For me, it's more the way a frog jumps into a pond. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 3 14:59:47 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:59:47 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> << >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. Pound said it was "like" a haiku. >> ... "hokku-like sentence". << What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. >> Try this link, Bob. http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=12704 I don't agree with all that Deborah says, but it does at the least suggest that the issue of "What is a haiku?" is even less uncontentious than you imply. Robin From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 15:52:16 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:52:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> Message-ID: <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. > >> > > ... "hokku-like sentence". > > > << > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > >> > > Try this link, Bob. > > http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=12704 > > > I don't agree with all that Deborah says, but it does at the least suggest > that the issue of "What is a haiku?" is even less uncontentious than you > imply. And she didn't even consider MY varied attempts to define it, which have gotten into MODERN HAIKU. Her piece is okay but has few good definitions. "Something in nature deeply felt and keenly expressed" or the like doesn't make it, for me, and most of the "definitions" seemed close to that. One big area of contention is simplicity versus complexity, often particularized as lack of metaphor versus metaphor. I think most of the lasting haiku contain implicit metaphors galore. She's wrong that haiku are the world's smallest literary form, albeit they are the smallest form recognized by the fifty-years-behind. Although a case might be made that the minimalist poems I'm thinking of that are smaller than haiku are a form of haiku. . . . The other famous American poem whose possible haiku-ness people argue over is Williams's wheelbarrow poem. I think of it as a haiku but a special kind of one. It editorializes ("so much depends upon") which is taboo. It's long for a haiku, too. Interesting area. Comes my grant, and I may well try to write a big essay on it. --Bobku From Thom424 Sat Jan 3 16:14:16 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:14:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry: A Magazine of Verse Message-ID: <126.3819651a.2d288aa8@aol.com> I could wait until Monday morning when the library opens once again, but I though someone on this list might be able to help: what poets were listed in the table-of-contents for the first issue of *Poetry* magazine, October, 1912. Thanks, Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sat Jan 3 16:23:27 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:23:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001201c3d23f$d49038e0$24dcf63f@Helen> To get technical - a hokku is not a haiku - a hokku is the first verse of a renga. Looks like a haiku, smells like a haiku, but isn't. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > > >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > > > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. > > >> > > > > ... "hokku-like sentence". > > > > > > << > > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > >> > > > > Try this link, Bob. > > > > http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=12704 > > > > > > I don't agree with all that Deborah says, but it does at the least suggest > > that the issue of "What is a haiku?" is even less uncontentious than you > > imply. > > And she didn't even consider MY varied attempts to define it, which have > gotten into MODERN HAIKU. Her piece is okay but has few good definitions. > "Something in nature deeply felt and keenly expressed" or the like doesn't > make it, for me, and most of the "definitions" seemed close to that. > > One big area of contention is simplicity versus complexity, often > particularized as lack of metaphor versus metaphor. I think most of the > lasting haiku contain implicit metaphors galore. > > She's wrong that haiku are the world's smallest literary form, albeit they > are the smallest form recognized by the fifty-years-behind. Although a case > might be made that the minimalist poems I'm thinking of that are smaller > than haiku are a form of haiku. . . . > > The other famous American poem whose possible haiku-ness people argue over > is Williams's wheelbarrow poem. I think of it as a haiku but a special kind > of one. It editorializes ("so much depends upon") which is taboo. It's > long for a haiku, too. > > Interesting area. Comes my grant, and I may well try to write a big essay > on it. > > --Bobku > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From joncpoetics Sat Jan 3 16:27:10 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:27:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked Message-ID: Fucked You're born and you're fucked; and some little shit who's an inch and a half taller than you wants your toy truck and you're fucked; and here comes puberty and, man, talk about fucked... and a thousand luscious nymphs dazzle you from magazine covers and pick your pocket and you're fucked; and you go to college and you major in history you idiot and you're fucked; and you fall out of lock step and you're fucked; and the President is afraid his cock isn't big enough so they hand you a rifle and you're fucked; and a couple of thugs drinking malt liquor on the street corner say let's go see if that guy has any money and you're fucked; and you waste yourself working for nothing but weekends and paydays and one morning you forget to smile at your boss and you're fucked; and the years slam shut behind you and you're fucked; and your wife wants a divorce the house the kids the car and two thirds of your salary forever and you're fucked; and your big ideas end up in a drawer full of cancelled checks and you're fucked; and your doctor says I'm afraid I have some bad news and you're fucked; and they stick you with needles and tubes and people talk in whispers when they come into your room but you know that what they're saying is you're fucked. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Expand your wine savvy ? and get some great new recipes ? at MSN Wine. http://wine.msn.com From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 3 16:39:39 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:39:39 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001201c3d23f$d49038e0$24dcf63f@Helen> Message-ID: <01e101c3d242$177b7ff0$6cb08051@MyPC> > To get technical - a hokku is not a haiku - a hokku is the first verse of a > renga. Looks like a haiku, smells like a haiku, but isn't. Neat, Helen, I hadn't known that. I'd simply assumed Pound couldn't spell "haiku" in 1914. But that suggests that something more complex may be at issue here, over his description of The Metro as "a hokku-like sentence". He wrote it (obviously) before he'd been given Fenollosa's notes, so where was his background coming from? The She-King in the Ancient Books of the East series? Thanks for the observation, anyway. Robin From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 3 16:42:14 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 22:42:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked References: Message-ID: <01da01c3d242$73eea500$a5607550@anny> From: "Jon Corelis" > Fucked > > > You're born and you're fucked; > > and some little shit who's an inch and a half taller than you wants your toy > truck and you're fucked; > > and here comes puberty and, man, talk about fucked... > > and a thousand luscious nymphs dazzle you from magazine covers and pick your > pocket and you're fucked; > > and you go to college and you major in history you idiot and you're fucked; > > and you fall out of lock step and you're fucked; > > and the President is afraid his cock isn't big enough so they hand you a > rifle and you're fucked; > > and a couple of thugs drinking malt liquor on the street corner say let's go > see if that guy has any money and you're fucked; > > and you waste yourself working for nothing but weekends and paydays and one > morning you forget to smile at your boss and you're fucked; > > and the years slam shut behind you and you're fucked; > > and your wife wants a divorce the house the kids the car and two thirds of > your salary forever and you're fucked; > > and your big ideas end up in a drawer full of cancelled checks and you're > fucked; > > and your doctor says I'm afraid I have some bad news and you're fucked; > > and they stick you with needles and tubes and people talk in whispers when > they come into your room but you know that what they're saying is you're > fucked. > > > ================================================== > > Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics > > ================================================== This is a f**ing poem, which does make sense and have its own rhythmic pulse, both logical and, in great lines, in style. Hopefully it is not autobiographical. It reminds me of Al Aronowitz' Schmaikus, since we are broadly talking of haikus, here is another form which might be of interest to Grumman, follow the link: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=36 Anny From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 17:14:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:14:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked References: <01da01c3d242$73eea500$a5607550@anny> Message-ID: <037b01c3d246$e41a0500$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > This is a f**ing poem, which does make sense and have its own rhythmic > pulse, both logical and, in great lines, in style. Hopefully it is not > autobiographical. It reminds me of Al Aronowitz' Schmaikus, since we are > broadly talking of haikus, here is another form which might be of interest > to Grumman, follow the link: > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories& cid=36 > Well, Anny, I like the name, but to me they're just sophomoric epigrams. --Bob G. From atlas Sat Jan 3 17:43:12 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:43:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d5.17b0c9f3.2d2877df@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a201c3d24a$f84cee30$739edf18@atlas> Jeffery Levine wrote: > For me, it's more the way a frog jumps into a pond. I like that. Mike Geary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 3 17:54:35 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:54:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <00a201c3d24a$f84cee30$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: It's all about the ker-plop! Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html Jeffery Levine wrote: > For me, it's more the way a frog jumps into a pond. I like that. Mike Geary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 3 21:27:24 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:27:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?Windows-1252?Q?Poems_by_others:___Tomas_Transtr=F6mer=2C_=22Nocturne=22?= Message-ID: Nocturne I drive through a village at night, houses step forward into the headlamps' stream--they are awake, and we are thirsty. Houses, barns, billboards, driverless vehicles--it is now they clothe themselves with Life.--The population sleeps: some in peaceful sleep, others with strained features as if they were entered in hard training for eternity. They dare not let go of everything even in deepest sleep. They rest like lowered barriers while the mystery rides by. Beyond the village the road runs along between forest trees. And trees trees tramp in silent concord side by side. They have a theatrical look, as if seen by firelight. Every left distinct! They follow me all the way home. I lit down ready for sleep. I see the queerest pictures and signs that crawl themselves behind my eyelids on the dark's wall. In a slot between waking and dream a very large envelope tries in vain to push itself through. --Tomas Transtr?mer tr. May Swenson and Leif Sj?berg fr. *Windows & Stones: Selected Poems* [Pittsburgh: Univ. of Pittsburgh Press, 1972] orig. in *The Half-Made Heaven*, 1962 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From ron.silliman Mon Jan 5 06:55:42 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 06:55:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's blog Message-ID: <000001c3d382$dbaf16c0$6501a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Dickinson ? Niedecker ? Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada?s ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York Defining the line in speech as well as writing Blog less, blog better John Godfrey?s Private Lemonade: the role of syntax in abstraction What the value of prose can bring to the poem Silent rhyme: Marianne Moore & the question of the line Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Whose Marianne Moore? Jena Osman: turning poetry inside out Jena Osman: Memory error theater Disruptive poetry: Jena Osman, Christian B?k et al When the unimaginable suddenly appears obvious ? the intellectual theater of Jena Osman Mary Margaret Sloan on poetry in Chicago http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:17:29 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:17:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough In-Reply-To: <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91D99.9046.3517D9@localhost> On 2 Jan 2004 at 17:32, Bob Grumman wrote: > Plus, he may have painted a Chinese picture WITHOUT knowing anything > about Chinese painting.<< LOL! Well THAT explains a lot! It explains how you think you can use "objective" without knowing anything about objectivity! From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:17:28 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:17:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" In-Reply-To: <01c901c3d21b$85e3bab0$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91D98.31016.351684@localhost> On 3 Jan 2004 at 12:03, Bob Grumman wrote: > Note how the verosopath ignores ...<< More name-calling, Bob. Is that really the best you can do? Perhaps you should take some courses in logic and philosophy so you can be persuaded to try to make reasonable arguments instead of putting forward name-calling fallacies. > ... Two people can have objective > taxonomies that disagree with each other. I can say all haiku have > one to twenty syllables, which is objectively determinable ...<< Some addresses on envelopes fit that; does that make them haiku? Is any group of 20 or fewer syllables a haiku? The scale you offer is not objective. > ... even by your moronic standards....<< More name-calling -- here, again, because you strongly hold the view that anyone who disagrees with you has made a personal attack on you, by applying your own views to your writing, it's clear that you intend to make a name-calling attack. > Someone else can use different numbers and be > equally objective yet disagree with me. I can say whales are fish > because, among other things, they live in water, something that can > be objectively determined; someone else can say whales are mammals > because they bear living offspring, something also objectively > determinable. Two objective taxonomies.< Whales are fish for sufficiently broad categories of mammals; the earth is flat for sufficiently wide interpretations of curvature; 2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2. These are all jokes, Bob, and you don't seem to be willing to accept that "objective" is not a matter of sufficiently poetic manifestations of subjectivity. > You say that describing a person's actions negatively is not > name-calling. I guess that's only when you do it.<< Your view that whenever anyone disagrees with you they are calling you names is the context in which you offer your iterations of "describing a person's actions negatively": you are clearly trying to call names without getting caught at it. I, on the other hand, am merely disagreeing with your views, and trying to point out, civilly, where I disagree with them. My stated position is that in order to have a civil discussion we must be willing and able to separate our views from our selves precisely so that attacks on another person's views do NOT constitute an attack on his or her person. > ... I am actually only > saying that a person who calls another's actions stupid and thinks his > description has nothing to do with the person whose actions he is > describing is wrong.<< This is a perfectly adequate generalized statement of your rejection of the principle that civil discussion must hinge upon the willingness of the participants to separate their views from their selves. You are explicitly stating that there is no difference between "That's a stupid view" and "You're stupid", while I am pointing out that there is a significant and important difference between them -- though I don't advocate "stupid" as the adjective of choice. > What makes you an authority on what civil discussion is?<< I ran the TIME Magazine discussion boards online for several years, and promulgated the simple "No name-calling" rule there that applies the 25000-year old tradition of separating one's self from one's views in order to avoid falling into the tar-pit of vituperation instead of walking the road of discussion. What authority makes you think that "That view is bad" and "You're bad" are the same? > I have no real opinion on what civil discussion is ...<< Then perhaps you'd be wise to adhere to the opinions of those who have both more experience in the matter, and who have thought about it quite a bit. > ... The verosopath ...<< More name-calling. Is this really the best you can do? > Right, adding expressive variety to what one says, which I claim to be > a valuable thing to do, is the same as claiming "it is the writer's > job to make it hard for the reader to understand."<< How do you tell the difference, Bob, between "adding expressive variety" and "making it hard for the reader to understand"? You haven't got an objective measure of either one or of the difference -- it's a matter of subjective opinion. The goal is to make a persuasive and reasonable case for your views, not to pretend to a scientific objectivity you neither have nor even have a distant look at. It is precisely your claim that your view is "objective" and that all other views are less than and less worthy than your own because those other views are not "objective" that is so subjective! From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:17:28 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:17:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <003d01c3d083$78db3170$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91D98.12701.35153A@localhost> > One last question, can anyone tell me if there's any objective way to > determine if it's propaganda or poetry? > --Bob G. Are you suggesting there is a quantitative scale from propaganda to poetry and a tool by which to measure bits of writing to tell where they fall along that scale? Or are you just playing more subjective games while using the word "objective" wrong? Is it Conjugation we're going to be playing here, Bob? "You're a poet, she's a versifier, he's a lying propagandist"? Marcus From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:24:52 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:24:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <01cf01c3d21c$bccfad30$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91F54.21031.3BD95D@localhost> On 3 Jan 2004 at 12:12, Bob Grumman wrote: > No more than you can resist misrepresenting me and abusing my > thinking ...< I don't misrepresent you, Bob -- I reveal that you are using "objective" to mean "my subjective view", and "taxonomy" to mean "an agenda to mainstream my avant garde poetry", and the like. I point out that your use of words is very much like double-speak. You seem to think that if you say your view is objective often enough that people will take it to be objective -- but in reality, Bob, that tactic is known as "the big lie", a logical fallacy. > No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will argue > over hard cases at the margins of its categories. Just as two > scientists with two slightly different instruments might argue quite > vehemently with each other about the exact temperature some > experimental result has occurred at.< But Bob, they don't argue about orders of magnitude! You're trying to say that things are "objective" without any scale whatever, without any tool whatever, by which to measure the thing you propose to measure! You merely claim that the way you'd like to see poetry organized is "objective", that it's a "taxonomy" in a sort of vaguely metaphorical way. Now, that wouldn't be a bad thing if you weren't at the same time trying to claim that your subjective view is really "objective" because you use the word "taxonomy" and repeat your claim to "objectivity" over and over. That's a cargo-cult notion of what science and objectivity is all about, Bob. From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:28:44 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:28:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF9203C.24958.3F6514@localhost> Bob Grumman: > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. RS Gwynn: > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. Bob Grumman: > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. No, Bob, if you have an OBJECTIVE SCALE and a tool by which to measure poetry, as you CLAIM you have, then you must be able to say that it's a haku for ANYONE who can understand your scale and use the tool you provide, within a small margin of error, just as anyone can tell the temperature within a small margin of error. That doesn't mean that someone may not subjectively think that 70 degrees F is cold while another person thinks that 70 degrees F is hot; it means that they can agree on the temperature even as they disagree on their subjective experiences of that same temperature. From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:40:45 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:40:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF9230D.24456.4A67BD@localhost> > And she didn't even consider MY varied attempts to define > [haiku]...< Are those your OBJECTIVE attempts, there, Bob? LOL! From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:42:42 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:42:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked In-Reply-To: <037b01c3d246$e41a0500$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF92382.3426.4C2E42@localhost> Bob Grumman: > Well, Anny, I like the name, but to me they're just > sophomoric epigrams. Is that the OBJECTIVE fact, there, Bob? LOL! From halvard Mon Jan 5 11:41:55 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:41:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems, etc., by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Werner Herzog . . ." Message-ID: Actually two things, this morning--first the Lauterbach poem and then an item from the Metropolitan Diary in this morning's NYT. Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 Then this light flipped in the rowboats Then this anchor lifted from petulant water Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man Had taken his crew so far to this island, This wind, to find them and, eventually, To take us there. It was a small city It was the light released, skyward, not Natural and I wondered how many of them Were dead having gone from the frame. It was Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds Forgetting her lines, smiling Despite the feet in the wall, Despite the illusion. It was Another film in the small city where a man Saw the most beautiful woman ever In the ugliest hat. It was a hen trapped in sand. It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say Now that he was able to say it, a young girl Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child Touching the sleeve of a stranger. --Ann Lauterbach fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] from the NYT, 1/5/04 "Dear Diary: I collect and wear Mickey Mouse watches. This past fall, I boarded the train to New York at Metropark, in Woodbridge, N.J. At one of the stops, a boy about 5 entered the train with his mother. As the train was crowded, they sat next to me, the boy on his mother's lap. He noticed my watch, and looked up at my face. He repeatedly glanced at the watch, then at me, as though working out a difficult problem. Finally, with a very puzzled expression on his small face, he tapped me on the arm and said, 'Excuse me, but are you a grown-up?'" --Lollie W. Margolin Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Mon Jan 5 12:32:48 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:32:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" References: <3FF91D98.31016.351684@localhost> Message-ID: <029401c3d3b1$f0b8a250$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 3 Jan 2004 at 12:03, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Note how the verosopath ignores ...<< > > More name-calling, Bob. Is that really the best you can do? Not really. But I don't want to upset James. > > ... Two people can have objective > > taxonomies that disagree with each other. I can say all haiku have > > one to twenty syllables, which is objectively determinable ...<< > > Some addresses on envelopes fit that; does that make them haiku? Yes. If all haiku have from one to twenty syllables, then any text that has from one to twenty syllables is a haiku. --Bob G. From marcus Mon Jan 5 12:46:16 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:46:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" In-Reply-To: <029401c3d3b1$f0b8a250$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF95C98.4603.12B2E99@localhost> > > Some addresses on envelopes fit that; does that make them haiku? > Yes. If all haiku have from one to twenty syllables, then any text > that has from one to twenty syllables is a haiku. Pfui. From DICK Mon Jan 5 13:15:41 2004 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 04 13:15:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lauterbach poem Message-ID: <200401051815.i05IFq55110466@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:01:03 -0500 ************** How about a little bit of help, Hal? (backchannel if you wish.) What is it about this poem that made you want to post it? A real answer only, please. Richard Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 Then this light flipped in the rowboats Then this anchor lifted from petulant water Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man Had taken his crew so far to this island, This wind, to find them and, eventually, To take us there. It was a small city It was the light released, skyward, not Natural and I wondered how many of them Were dead having gone from the frame. It was Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds Forgetting her lines, smiling Despite the feet in the wall, Despite the illusion. It was Another film in the small city where a man Saw the most beautiful woman ever In the ugliest hat. It was a hen trapped in sand. It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say Now that he was able to say it, a young girl Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child Touching the sleeve of a stranger. --Ann Lauterbach fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] From elemenope Mon Jan 5 01:12:43 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:12:43 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ann Lauterbach, "Werner Herzog"/ Little Boy/Mickey Mouse/Margolis-NYT Letter In-Reply-To: <200401051701.i05H131G011566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401051701.i05H131G011566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: For those who know my own writing on Fieralingua, they will find a sibling poem ("San Francisco Poem") to Lauterbach's. IMHO, a distinction between the two (since they employ the same enigma) is that in mine, the speaker enters the action. I see Lauterbach's poem as a list, well written and original. I published Anne Lauterbach ("Live At The Ear" a cd edited by Charles Bernstein, 1994) and know something about how her imagination works, as well as her ambition. The synchronicity of the Little Boy/Mickey Mouse/Margolis-NYT Letter with "Werner Herzog" makes her poem part of the larger action evoked in the formerly stand alone poem. Synchronicities abound in the Interzone. Thanks for the wit, Mr. Johnson, to seize on the opportunity to post this montage. Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: "New-Poetry" >Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:41:55 -0500 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems, etc., by others: Ann Lauterbach, >"Werner Herzog . . ." >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Actually two things, this morning--first the Lauterbach poem >and then an item from the Metropolitan Diary in this morning's >NYT. > > >Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 > >Then this light flipped in the rowboats >Then this anchor lifted from petulant water >Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, >Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man >Had taken his crew so far to this island, >This wind, to find them and, eventually, >To take us there. > It was a small city >It was > the light released, skyward, not >Natural and I wondered how many of them >Were dead having gone from the frame. > It was >Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, >The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds >Forgetting her lines, smiling >Despite the feet in the wall, >Despite the illusion. > It was >Another film in the small city where a man >Saw the most beautiful woman ever >In the ugliest hat. > It was a hen trapped in sand. >It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say >Now that he was able to say it, a young girl >Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. >It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child >Touching the sleeve of a stranger. > >--Ann Lauterbach > >fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] > > >from the NYT, 1/5/04 > >"Dear Diary: > > I collect and wear Mickey Mouse watches. >This past fall, I boarded the train to New York at >Metropark, in Woodbridge, N.J. > At one of the stops, a boy about 5 entered >the train with his mother. > As the train was crowded, they sat next to >me, the boy on his mother's lap. He noticed my >watch, and looked up at my face. He repeatedly >glanced at the watch, then at me, as though working >out a difficult problem. > Finally, with a very puzzled expression on >his small face, he tapped me on the arm and said, >'Excuse me, but are you a grown-up?'" > > --Lollie W. Margolin > > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >The Sonnet Project: >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From bobgrumman Mon Jan 5 14:50:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:50:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Notes on Verosopathology References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001201c3d23f$d49038e0$24dcf63f@Helen> <01e101c3d242$177b7ff0$6cb08051@MyPC> Message-ID: <043401c3d3c5$1b7caf00$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> One interesting ploy of the verosopath is to use such ridiculous arguments against an opponent that the number of responses that immediately occur to the opponent will render his mind temporarily non-functional due to overcrowding. For instance, the argument that if a person allows that others may have a different definition of something than his indicates that his definition is not objective. --Bob G. From halvard Mon Jan 5 15:02:04 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:02:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lauterbach poem In-Reply-To: <200401051815.i05IFq55110466@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: I thought you might enjoy it. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html { ***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:01:03 -0500 ************** { How about a little bit of help, Hal? (backchannel if you wish.) { { What is it about this poem that made you want to post it? { { A real answer only, please. { { Richard { { Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 { { Then this light flipped in the rowboats { Then this anchor lifted from petulant water { Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, { Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man { Had taken his crew so far to this island, { This wind, to find them and, eventually, { To take us there. { It was a small city { It was { the light released, skyward, not { Natural and I wondered how many of them { Were dead having gone from the frame. { It was { Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, { The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds { Forgetting her lines, smiling { Despite the feet in the wall, { Despite the illusion. { It was { Another film in the small city where a man { Saw the most beautiful woman ever { In the ugliest hat. { It was a hen trapped in sand. { It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say { Now that he was able to say it, a young girl { Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. { It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child { Touching the sleeve of a stranger. { { --Ann Lauterbach { { fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus Mon Jan 5 15:42:40 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:42:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Notes on Verosopathology In-Reply-To: <043401c3d3c5$1b7caf00$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF985F0.2258.1CCAAF1@localhost> On 5 Jan 2004 at 14:50, Bob Grumman wrote: > One interesting ploy of the verosopath ....<< More name-calling. Once again, Bob, can't you make any better case for your views than to name-call those who disagree with you? > is to use such ridiculous > arguments against an opponent that the number of responses that > immediately occur to the opponent will render his mind temporarily > non-functional due to overcrowding.<< Pfui. There's no rush, Bob -- take your time. Do the best you can. It's no thrill, believe me, to point out over and over the same damn flaws. > For instance, the argument that > if a person allows that others may have a different definition of > something than his indicates that his definition is not objective.< The notion of "objective" is what you seem to be determined to mis- use, Bob. If you want to offer an objective evaluation of what something really is, you need a scale and a tool by which to measure on that scale. When you start name-calling about how your personal subjective view is really an objective one you only reveal the weakness of your argument and the paucity of reasons to share your view. Do try to do better, Bob. There's no rush -- take your time. Show me, show us all, what scale you propose to use on which to measure what poetry is; show us the tool you propose to use to make sure that everyone agrees on what a haiku IS, even if they don't agree about whether this or that haiku is GOOD. From Cadaly Mon Jan 5 23:30:32 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:30:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] review of Da3! up! Message-ID: <195.2482d8d7.2d2b93e8@aol.com> Eclectica, Kevin McGowin http://www.eclectica.org/v8n1/review_list.html Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net DaDaDa Salt Publishing, 2003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Tue Jan 6 09:20:23 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 09:20:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Reagan Dime? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FFA7DD7.6478.859A76@localhost> www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-12-05-reagan-dime_x.htm From kpaul Tue Jan 6 09:28:23 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:28:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Reagan Dime? In-Reply-To: <3FFA7DD7.6478.859A76@localhost> References: <3FFA7DD7.6478.859A76@localhost> Message-ID: <20040106092804.K67199@kpaul.spinweb.net> I heard if you drop it, it trickles down slowly. ;) -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Marcus Bales wrote: > www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-12-05-reagan-dime_x.htm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Tue Jan 6 11:19:01 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:19:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Carl Rakosi Turns 100 Message-ID: http://www.counterpunch.org/schaefer01032004.html Poet Carl Rakosi Turns 100 By STANDARD SCHAEFER On December 12th, 2003 the Beyond Baroque Literary Center in Venice, California hosted a one-hundredth birthday celebration for poet Carl Rakosi, one of the founding members of the Objectivist School of American poetry. Rakosi was born on November 6, 1903 in Berlin to Hungarian parents. "There were no books in our house," he said, "That didn't bother me because I didn't know I was missing anything, until one day I discovered the public library on the other side of town. The library now became my secret home and my secret vice...." From heather Sun Jan 4 09:51:41 2004 From: heather (HEATHER TAYLOR) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:51:41 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <000801c3d2d2$44ef3b80$340b883e@oemcomputer> can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:38:35 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:38:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <293580-220041610173835768@M2W070.mail2web.com> Barbara Fritchie It's a little wrong: "WHo touches a hair of yon gray head Dies like a dog! March on," he said. Original Message: ----------------- From: HEATHER TAYLOR heather at piping.fsnet.co.uk Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:51:41 -0000 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From atlas Sat Jan 10 12:41:03 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:41:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification References: <000801c3d2d2$44ef3b80$340b883e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <053301c3d7a0$eb7294c0$739edf18@atlas> John Greenleaf Whittier. 1807-1892 81. Barbara Frietchie UP from the meadows rich with corn, Clear in the cool September morn, The clustered spires of Frederick stand Green-walled by the hills of Maryland. Round about them orchards sweep, 5 Apple and peach tree fruited deep, Fair as a garden of the Lord To the eyes of the famished rebel horde, On that pleasant morn of the early fall When Lee marched over the mountain wall,- 10 Over the mountains winding down, Horse and foot, into Frederick town. Forty flags with their silver stars, Forty flags with their crimson bars, Flapped in the morning wind: the sun 15 Of noon looked down, and saw not one. Up rose old Barbara Frietchie then, Bowed with her fourscore years and ten; Bravest of all in Frederick town, She took up the flag the men hauled down; 20 In her attic-window the staff she set, To show that one heart was loyal yet. Up the street came the rebel tread, Stonewall Jackson riding ahead. Under his slouched hat left and right 25 He glanced: the old flag met his sight. "Halt!"-the dust-brown ranks stood fast, "Fire!"-out blazed the rifle-blast. It shivered the window, pane and sash; It rent the banner with seam and gash. 30 Quick, as it fell, from the broken staff Dame Barbara snatched the silken scarf; She leaned far out on the window-sill, And shook it forth with a royal will. "Shoot, if you must, this old gray head, 35 But spare your country's flag," she said. A shade of sadness, a blush of shame, Over the face of the leader came; The nobler nature within him stirred To life at that woman's deed and word: 40 "Who touches a hair of yon gray head Dies like a dog! March on!" he said. All day long through Frederick street Sounded the tread of marching feet: All day long that free flag tost 45 Over the heads of the rebel host. Ever its torn folds rose and fell On the loyal winds that loved it well; And through the hill-gaps sunset light Shone over it with a warm good-night. 50 Barbara Frietchie's work is o'er, And the Rebel rides on his raids no more. Honor to her! and let a tear Fall, for her sake, on Stonewall's bier. Over Barbara Frietchie's grave, 55 Flag of Freedom and Union, wave! Peace and order and beauty draw Round thy symbol of light and law; And ever the stars above look down On thy stars below in Frederick town! *************** 60 Invoice to follow under separate cover. Mike Geary ----- Original Message ----- From: HEATHER TAYLOR To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:40:50 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:40:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <287030-220041610174050724@M2W034.mail2web.com> Sorry -- hit SEND too soon. It's from Whittier. Barbara has just said to the Confederate officer: "Shoot if you must this old gray head, But spare our country's flag!" she said. Original Message: ----------------- From: HEATHER TAYLOR heather at piping.fsnet.co.uk Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:51:41 -0000 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:44:26 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:44:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song Message-ID: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> For something I'm working on, thoughts here? What are the differences between poetry and song? What are the standards each has to meet? What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? What devices do they both use? What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? Tad -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:47:30 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:47:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <157240-220041610174730127@M2W091.mail2web.com> Boy, you can see why those lines are so often excerpted from the poem. Those four stanzas, beginning with "Shoot if you must" and ending with "March on" are really stirring. The rest of the poem is pretty flat. Original Message: ----------------- From: Michael Geary atlas at earthlink.net Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:41:03 -0600 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poem identification John Greenleaf Whittier. 1807-1892 81. Barbara Frietchie UP from the meadows rich with corn, Clear in the cool September morn, The clustered spires of Frederick stand Green-walled by the hills of Maryland. Round about them orchards sweep, 5 Apple and peach tree fruited deep, Fair as a garden of the Lord To the eyes of the famished rebel horde, On that pleasant morn of the early fall When Lee marched over the mountain wall,- 10 Over the mountains winding down, Horse and foot, into Frederick town. Forty flags with their silver stars, Forty flags with their crimson bars, Flapped in the morning wind: the sun 15 Of noon looked down, and saw not one. Up rose old Barbara Frietchie then, Bowed with her fourscore years and ten; Bravest of all in Frederick town, She took up the flag the men hauled down; 20 In her attic-window the staff she set, To show that one heart was loyal yet. Up the street came the rebel tread, Stonewall Jackson riding ahead. Under his slouched hat left and right 25 He glanced: the old flag met his sight. "Halt!"-the dust-brown ranks stood fast, "Fire!"-out blazed the rifle-blast. It shivered the window, pane and sash; It rent the banner with seam and gash. 30 Quick, as it fell, from the broken staff Dame Barbara snatched the silken scarf; She leaned far out on the window-sill, And shook it forth with a royal will. "Shoot, if you must, this old gray head, 35 But spare your country's flag," she said. A shade of sadness, a blush of shame, Over the face of the leader came; The nobler nature within him stirred To life at that woman's deed and word: 40 "Who touches a hair of yon gray head Dies like a dog! March on!" he said. All day long through Frederick street Sounded the tread of marching feet: All day long that free flag tost 45 Over the heads of the rebel host. Ever its torn folds rose and fell On the loyal winds that loved it well; And through the hill-gaps sunset light Shone over it with a warm good-night. 50 Barbara Frietchie's work is o'er, And the Rebel rides on his raids no more. Honor to her! and let a tear Fall, for her sake, on Stonewall's bier. Over Barbara Frietchie's grave, 55 Flag of Freedom and Union, wave! Peace and order and beauty draw Round thy symbol of light and law; And ever the stars above look down On thy stars below in Frederick town! *************** 60 Invoice to follow under separate cover. Mike Geary ----- Original Message ----- From: HEATHER TAYLOR To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jvcervantes Sat Jan 10 13:25:36 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:25:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will clear it up for us. - Jim "tadrichards at prodigy.net" wrote: > > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > > What are the differences between poetry and song? > What are the standards each has to meet? > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? > What devices do they both use? > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? > > Tad > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Fri Jan 9 08:34:06 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:34:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Denise Levertov, "Age of Terror" Message-ID: Age of Terror Between the fear of the horror of Afterwards and the despair in the thought of no Afterwards, we move abraded, each gesture scraping us on the millstones. In dream there was an Afterwards the unknown device-- a silver computer as big as a block of offices at least, floating like Magritte's castle on its rock, aloft in the blue sky-- did explode, there was a long moment of cataclysm, light of a subdued rose-red suffused all the air before a rumbling confused darkness ensued, but I came to, face down, and found my young sister alive near me, and knew my still younger brother and our mother and father were close by too, and, passionately relieved, I comforted my shocked sister, still not daring to raise my head, only stroking and kissing her arm, afraid to find devastation around us though we, all five of us, seemed to have survived--and I readied myself to take rollcall: 'Paul Levertoff? Beatrice Levertoff?' And then in dream--not knowing if this device, this explosion, were radioactive or not, but sure that where it had centered there must be wreck, terror, fire and dust-- the millstones commenced their grinding again, and as in daylight again we were held between them, cramped, scraped raw by questions: perhaps, indeed, we were safe; perhaps no worse was to follow?--but . . . what of our gladness, when there, where the core of the strange roselight had flared up out of the detonation of brilliant angular silver, there must be others, others in agony, and as in waking daylight, the broken dead? --Denise Levertov fr. *Candles in Babylon* [New York: New Directions, 1982] in *Poems for the Millenium, Vol. Two* [Berkeley: Univ. of California Press, 1998] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From MillB Sat Jan 10 13:53:33 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:53:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song Message-ID: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> What are the differences between poetry and song? Poetry has to be stronger than song, more distilled, concentrated, like vanilla extract. I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more sentementality than poetry which has to stand on its own. A good song could have so-so lyrics, if the music is of good quality. Like the difference between a play and a monologue. The rest of the cast CAN carry a single weak character. What devices do they both use? Both can use rhyme. Both concentrate emotion and "story" into a single consecutive moment of "now." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 13:59:39 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:59:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > > What are the differences between poetry and song? poetry is a formal term, song informal, poetic poetry needn't be song, whose connotations make one think it should sound nice You probably won't want to mention it, but there are poems that have no sound--ones, that is, that can be read but not pronounced. I can't think of a single example offhand but know there must be some. Ones in code, and some abbreviated ones. Many visual poems are barely auditory. > What are the standards each has to meet? Song, it seems to me, would have to contain pleasing sounds, and also be a poem, so meet some other criteria for poetry, I would think. > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? None. > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? Auditory enjoyability. Poetry can meets this is it wants to. It seems to me a poem could meet it and still not be song, for it could require more reflection than I would associate with song. So maybe another requirement of song would be low IQ. > What devices do they both use? > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? I think poetry uses all the ones song does plus more cerebral burstnorm ones like disconcealment and all the other infraverbal ones. I think no devices are peculiar to any form of poetry, which is defined, I think (in my infra-objective way) by its properties, but which tends to use some minimum amount of a large number of poetic devices. That is, a poem needn't specifically use metaphor, rhyme, alliteration, or any of the other devices used by poetsetc., but will almost surely use one of them. informally yours, though aware he'll be held accountable for his many pseudoscientificabobbles in the Highest Court of Poetics here at new-poetry, Taxonobob From rwilsnac Sat Jan 10 14:36:45 2004 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:36:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification In-Reply-To: <157240-220041610174730127@M2W091.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040110131103.01be7680@medicine.nodak.edu> Whittier's words may also show how Auden overgeneralized in claiming that "poetry makes nothing happen." Whittier's poem (or song, if you prefer) shows how history (and the uses of history in subsequent generations) can be created or changed by poems/songs about events that never quite happened the way that poems/songs say they did. About Barbara Frietchie, Whittier later commented (eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2295.html ) : "This poem was written in strict conformity to the account of the incident as I had it from respectable and trustworthy sources. It has since been the subject of a good deal of conflicting testimony, and the story was probably incorrect in some of its details. It is admitted by all that Barbara Frietchie was no myth, but a worthy and highly esteemed gentlewoman, intensely loyal and a hater of the Slavery Rebellion, holding her Union flag sacred and keeping it with her Bible; that when the Confederates halted before her house, and entered her dooryard, she denounced them in vigorous language, shook her cane in their faces, and drove them out; and when General Burnside's troops followed close upon Jackson's, she waved her flag and cheered them. It is stated that Mary Quantrell, a brave and loyal lady in another part of the city, did wave her flag in sight of the Confederates. It is possible that there has been a blending of the two incidents." Other sources (online) argue that it is unlikely that Ms. Frietchie and "Stonewall" Jackson ever laid eyes on each other. Does it really matter? Frederick, Maryland still makes money off tourist desires to see where Barbara told off Stonewall, largely because Whittier wrote some words that still help people imagine that they just might have had the nerve to act the same in the same circumstances. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 14:38:31 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:38:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> Message-ID: <02f401c3d7b1$555c6e50$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Note, I'm thinking "song" not "song lyrics." --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song What are the differences between poetry and song? Poetry has to be stronger than song, more distilled, concentrated, like vanilla extract. I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more sentementality than poetry which has to stand on its own. A good song could have so-so lyrics, if the music is of good quality. Like the difference between a play and a monologue. The rest of the cast CAN carry a single weak character. What devices do they both use? Both can use rhyme. Both concentrate emotion and "story" into a single consecutive moment of "now." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 14:39:16 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:39:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02fe01c3d7b1$703ac9b0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > clear it up for us. > > - Jim Surely you mean Bales and Grumman. . . . --Bob G. From jvcervantes Sat Jan 10 14:44:47 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:44:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> <02fe01c3d7b1$703ac9b0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4000562F.55C9DA92@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > > clear it up for us. > > > > - Jim > > Surely you mean Bales and Grumman. . . . > > --Bob G. Oops! Sorry. Yep, got the wrong firm. - Jim From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 14:53:57 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:53:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <033301c3d7b3$7d1853d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > clear it up for us. > > - Jim And here I thought Bales and Grumman was a household name! New-Poetry has oft been cruel to me, but never this severely! --Bob G. From halvard Sat Jan 10 14:47:09 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:47:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jeez, I thought he said "pottery" and "sarong." Wouldn't B & C have a blast with those? Hal { When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and { similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will { clear it up for us. { { - Jim { { "tadrichards at prodigy.net" wrote: { > { > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? { > { > What are the differences between poetry and song? { > What are the standards each has to meet? { > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? { > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? { > What devices do they both use? { > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? { > { > Tad { > { > -------------------------------------------------------------------- { > mail2web - Check your email from the web at { > http://mail2web.com/ . { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From atlas Sat Jan 10 15:02:42 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:02:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> > What are the differences between poetry and song? Ever tried dancing to a poem? It sucks. Mike Geary From halvard Sat Jan 10 14:50:18 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:50:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <02fe01c3d7b1$703ac9b0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: { > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and { > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will { > clear it up for us. { > { > - Jim { { Surely you mean Bales and Grumman. . . . { { --Bob G. Yeah, and I meant B & G, which, with an E, would be Baltimore Gas & Electric. B & C's that old headache powder. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From hruggier Sat Jan 10 15:19:58 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:19:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> Message-ID: <019501c3d7b7$1efbc7b0$be0d9942@Helen> And musicians have backup singers and string sections to cover up all the clinkers ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song What are the differences between poetry and song? Poetry has to be stronger than song, more distilled, concentrated, like vanilla extract. I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more sentementality than poetry which has to stand on its own. A good song could have so-so lyrics, if the music is of good quality. Like the difference between a play and a monologue. The rest of the cast CAN carry a single weak character. What devices do they both use? Both can use rhyme. Both concentrate emotion and "story" into a single consecutive moment of "now." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sat Jan 10 15:23:59 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:23:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040110131103.01be7680@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <01ab01c3d7b7$ae6111d0$be0d9942@Helen> Actually she was actual - my old roomies great great something - Barbara Corbin/Royersford, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Wilsnack" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poem identification > Whittier's words may also show how Auden overgeneralized in claiming > that "poetry makes nothing happen." Whittier's poem (or song, if you > prefer) shows how history (and the uses of history in subsequent > generations) can be created or changed by poems/songs about events > that never quite happened the way that poems/songs say they did. > About Barbara Frietchie, Whittier later commented > (eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2295.html ) : > > "This poem was written in strict conformity to the account of the incident > as I had it from respectable and trustworthy sources. It has since been > the subject of a good deal of conflicting testimony, and the story was > probably incorrect in some of its details. It is admitted by all that Barbara > Frietchie was no myth, but a worthy and highly esteemed gentlewoman, > intensely loyal and a hater of the Slavery Rebellion, holding her Union flag > sacred and keeping it with her Bible; that when the Confederates halted > before her house, and entered her dooryard, she denounced them in > vigorous language, shook her cane in their faces, and drove them out; > and when General Burnside's troops followed close upon Jackson's, she > waved her flag and cheered them. It is stated that Mary Quantrell, a brave > and loyal lady in another part of the city, did wave her flag in sight of the > Confederates. It is possible that there has been a blending of the two > incidents." > > Other sources (online) argue that it is unlikely that Ms. Frietchie and > "Stonewall" Jackson ever laid eyes on each other. Does it really matter? > Frederick, Maryland still makes money off tourist desires to see where > Barbara told off Stonewall, largely because Whittier wrote some words > that still help people imagine that they just might have had the nerve > to act the same in the same circumstances. > > Richard W. Wilsnack > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 10 15:31:47 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:31:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> From: "Michael Geary" > > > > What are the differences between poetry and song? > > > Ever tried dancing to a poem? It sucks. > > Mike Geary I wouldn't be so cruel. Their origins are similar, with the Minnesaenger they coincide. They got different paths along history, to the point that for several centuries poetry was considered a _suffered composing_ while songs a _joyful sharing_. We have been witnessing lately a change in songs and poems. Songs are becoming more and more refined (or desecrating, or vulgar, or social, political, ...), in words (some are short poems), in music, and in the aspect of the singer. On the other hand with readings, poets have changed, the figure of a poor hunchbacked Leopardi shut in his tower with his books is very distant from the image of the successful poet we have nowadays (the poet laureate of the States, for example). Where a reading can become the performing of a poem. There is no way you can keep an audience still by reading some very complicated poems in a monotonous voice, and often there is no way you can keep any reader reading something complicated you wrote. Thus brevity, due to lack of time, a common stressed life, the shared possibility of having it all, if... A brevity which characterizes both now: poems and songs. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Sense conveyed, a love for words and the act of expressing, weren't the muses nine, and all dear to Apollo, protected by Venus. And yes, with Helen Ruggieri, songs have become the _golden business_ poetry is the servant of the Olympus. Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome A cry is the black cliff abruptly rising from the dim mirror of the sea. Notebook of Positano A. Onofri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sat Jan 10 15:35:00 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:35:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: Message-ID: <01fc01c3d7b9$387f1500$be0d9942@Helen> Sounds like an old movie with Bob Hope and Dorothy Lamour - hope and love on the road ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song > Jeez, I thought he said "pottery" and "sarong." Wouldn't B & C > have a blast with those? > > Hal > > { When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > { similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > { clear it up for us. > { > { - Jim > { > { "tadrichards at prodigy.net" wrote: > { > > { > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > { > > { > What are the differences between poetry and song? > { > What are the standards each has to meet? > { > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? > { > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? > { > What devices do they both use? > { > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? > { > > { > Tad > { > > { > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > { > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > { > http://mail2web.com/ . > { > > { > _______________________________________________ > { > New-Poetry mailing list > { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 15:41:14 2004 From: tadrichards (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:41:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Anny - this is great, and useful. Thanks. And thanks to all. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song From: "Michael Geary" > > > > What are the differences between poetry and song? > > > Ever tried dancing to a poem? It sucks. > > Mike Geary I wouldn't be so cruel. Their origins are similar, with the Minnesaenger they coincide. They got different paths along history, to the point that for several centuries poetry was considered a _suffered composing_ while songs a _joyful sharing_. We have been witnessing lately a change in songs and poems. Songs are becoming more and more refined (or desecrating, or vulgar, or social, political, ...), in words (some are short poems), in music, and in the aspect of the singer. On the other hand with readings, poets have changed, the figure of a poor hunchbacked Leopardi shut in his tower with his books is very distant from the image of the successful poet we have nowadays (the poet laureate of the States, for example). Where a reading can become the performing of a poem. There is no way you can keep an audience still by reading some very complicated poems in a monotonous voice, and often there is no way you can keep any reader reading something complicated you wrote. Thus brevity, due to lack of time, a common stressed life, the shared possibility of having it all, if... A brevity which characterizes both now: poems and songs. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Sense conveyed, a love for words and the act of expressing, weren't the muses nine, and all dear to Apollo, protected by Venus. And yes, with Helen Ruggieri, songs have become the _golden business_ poetry is the servant of the Olympus. Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome A cry is the black cliff abruptly rising from the dim mirror of the sea. Notebook of Positano A. Onofri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 10 15:39:50 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:39:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: Or, as Lynda said, last night, "Ars brevis, vita brevis." Hal Thus brevity, due to lack of time, a common stressed life, the shared possibility of having it all, if... A brevity which characterizes both now: poems and songs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 15:56:21 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:56:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> A musicality, which is the aim of both. Not so--at least for many at present doing what they consider to be poems. Visual poems don't try for musicality often, for instance, nor do many language poems. Sorry to intrude again. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 10 16:16:45 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:16:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> The evocation of sounds, (maybe that is better?) or of silence: Cage. Is Cage a musician, or a poet, or an artist? In this case, officially on a newspaper, if I had to review him, and since I like him, I would define him a poet. Thus elevating poet above singer-performer-musician and artist. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Not so--at least for many at present doing what they consider to be poems. Visual poems don't try for musicality often, for instance, nor do many language poems. Sorry to intrude again. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 16:39:45 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:39:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <040801c3d7c2$4500bf50$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> The evocation of sounds, (maybe that is better?) Nah. Lots of poems have nothing to do with sound. Then there are sound poems that have a lot to do with it, but not with conventional music. or of silence: Cage. Yes. I did one whose key word is "pnd." Is Cage a musician, or a poet, or an artist? In this case, officially on a newspaper, if I had to review him, and since I like him, I would define him a poet. Thus elevating poet above singer-performer-musician and artist. Actually, he wrote texts he considered poetry. He was active across the board. I think his various performed silences are music, though. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Not so--at least for many at present doing what they consider to be poems. Visual poems don't try for musicality often, for instance, nor do many language poems. Sorry to intrude again. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 10 16:31:22 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:31:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: When he was studying with Schoenberg, the latter called him an "inventor." Hal Is Cage a musician, or a poet, or an artist? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul Sat Jan 10 16:54:47 2004 From: paul (paul at tbhinc.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:54:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1905 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <200401101830.i0AIU3E1007137@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040110165057.03977c00@mail.tbhinc.com> Here's a challenge! I suppose you'll have to look at 1,000 poems never made into songs and a few thousand songs you think have poetic lyrics, maybe dig up the most-frequently set poems, in each region, in each decade, in each language. Aside from songs without words, are there songs that aren't poems? (Yes, I guess.) However you approach it, Tad, I'll be interested in your conclusions; also your bibliography. Paul C. Howell At 01:30 PM 1/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >From: "tadrichards at prodigy.net" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:44:26 -0500 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > >What are the differences between poetry and song? >What are the standards each has to meet? >What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? >What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? >What devices do they both use? >What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? > >Tad From JforJames Sat Jan 10 18:16:21 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:16:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song Message-ID: <14.203902b9.2d31e1c5@aol.com> A month ago I attended a performance by a local choral group called Concora. Their program featured a number of a contemporary composers who had set poems to music: "Peter Quince at the Clavier" (W. Stevens), with a setting by Robert Cohen. Charles Griffin's setting of two E. E. Cummihgs' pieces: "in just" and "hist whist," from Chansons Innocentes. The program also featured settings of poems by Langston Hughes, Dorothy Parker and Dylan Thomas. I spoke on a panel with the two composers, Cohen & Griffin, about poetry & music/song. Of course, the process of setting a poem to music is not always to the purpose of making a 'song'. So perhaps there is a third element in this discussion: the poem and music combined as aural art but not as song per se. My remarks during the panel discussion were very informal, but I tried to stir things up, and to express the misgivings of the modern poet with a quote from Valery: "having verse set to music is like looking at a painting through a stained glass window." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Wed Jan 7 10:34:34 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:34:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ronald Johnson, "BEAM 6, The Musics" Message-ID: BEAM 6, The Musics Let flick his tail, the darkling Lion, down to the primal huddle fiddling DNA. Let the Elephant ruffle the elements in The Great Looped Nebula with his uplift trunk. Let the Binary, orange, emerald, and blue, in the foot of Andromeda run awhisker with Mouse. Let the Dickcissel, in Cock's-foot, Foxtail, & Tottering, ring one molecular ornamentation on tau Ceti. Let the Switch Snake lilt bluegrass back and forth be- tween pelucid cells. Let Porcupine rattle quill, in a Casseopia of Hollyhock. Let the whinny of Pigeons' wings trigger similar strains from elm to Triangulum. Let a score for matter's staccato to cornstalk be touted to stars clustering The Archer's wrist. Let the stripes of Zebra be in time with the imaginary House of Mozart, on Jupiter. --Ronald Johnson fr. *Ark: The Foundations: 1-33* [San Francisco: North Point Press, 1980] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 18:44:03 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:44:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <14.203902b9.2d31e1c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <047201c3d7d3$a2703600$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> My remarks during the panel discussion were very informal, but I tried to stir things up, and to express the misgivings of the modern poet with a quote from Valery: "having verse set to music is like looking at a painting through a stained glass window." Finnegan I like that idea. It's not as though you couldn't go inside the church and look at the painting directly. It seems to me a good summary of what artists' do: take previous art and lay stained glass on it, or remove stained glass from it. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Jan 11 07:26:35 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:26:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Sun Jan 11 08:33:10 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:33:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone > can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? > > --Bob G. > Impossibility/probability - fer starters - Jim From atlas Sun Jan 11 11:29:56 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:29:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01a601c3d860$2668d390$739edf18@atlas> > Impossibility/probability - fer starters > - Jim antiestablishmentarianism / proestablishmentarianism Please send my prize via Fed Ex, Mike Geary From Rsgwynn1 Sun Jan 11 12:16:22 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:16:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: Proposition and opposition would be rime riche or rich rhyme. I can't think of any true four-syllable rhymes offhand but will channel Mr. W. S. Gilbert. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sun Jan 11 12:21:43 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:21:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <012b01c3d867$62d28220$8b099942@Helen> Depending on the rhyme - masc. or fem. try Ogden Nash - who rhymes polygamy and pigmy ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 7:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sun Jan 11 13:14:08 2004 From: tadrichards (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:14:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <012b01c3d867$62d28220$8b099942@Helen> Message-ID: <001101c3d86e$b53afd10$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> It's not the same thing, but in Situations I rhymed four stresses in a pentameter line: Too often calumny can lurk behind A portrait drawn too well in a bland mask-it Hides motives cruel and dark. I fear you'll find Your friends have gone to hell in a handbasket." ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Ruggieri To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Depending on the rhyme - masc. or fem. try Ogden Nash - who rhymes polygamy and pigmy ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 7:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Jan 11 13:27:55 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:27:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: Message-ID: <025d01c3d870$a31205f0$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> "Proposition" and "opposition" don't truly rhyme? Where don't they? I sure thought they did. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Proposition and opposition would be rime riche or rich rhyme. I can't think of any true four-syllable rhymes offhand but will channel Mr. W. S. Gilbert. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sun Jan 11 15:38:37 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:38:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <62.3916f874.2d330e4d@cs.com> In a message dated 1/11/2004 12:29:54 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > "Proposition" and "opposition" don't truly rhyme? Where don't they? I > sure thought they did. > > --Bob G. > On second thought, I guess they do so these are true quadruple rhymes. I was thinking of something like "protection" and "detection," which really aren't true rhymes but just repetition of the "tection" or what the French would call rime riche. Gilbert, for example, rhymes "wary at" with "commissariat," which is a triple rhyme. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Mon Jan 12 07:49:49 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 07:49:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> Message-ID: <4002519D.7004.203F8A@localhost> On 10 Jan 2004 at 13:53, MillB at aol.com wrote: > I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more > sentimentality than poetry which has to stand on its own.<< This sounds like a description of the difference between free verse and verse in meter. Isn't the essence of free verse precisely that it's trying to get away with writing apart from the demands of meter? Perhaps the free versists will argue that songs are more likely to achieve poetry than metered verse because songs are trying to get away with writing apart from the demands of meter? There is no necessary difference between "poetry" and "song" -- a song can be poetry if it's good enough. If it's not good enough it's metered verse or free verse, depending on how it's written. A song has more hurdles to get over to be taken as poetry, though, than verse: most importantly the words must be singable, a quality that ranges from shower/tub singers to art songs and opera arias. It's very difficult to sing the vowel sound "ee" on a high note, and hard to sing it properly at all if it is an extended sound, for example. Songs that ask singers consistently to hit extended "ee" sounds on high notes will be making such demands on even excellent singers that it will be hard to make them sound good -- and songs that don't sound good aren't taken to be poetry! There are myriad other problems to writing songs as opposed to verse. Even verse that is not poetry has a rhythm of its own, and when the words are dictating the rhythms of the song instead of blending into the rhythms of the music, then one gets into the notion of the music being a setting for the words rather than the whole being a song. In most songs the primacy of the music over the words is the fundamental difference between song lyrics and verse. When the words have primacy over the music the result is a "setting", not a song. When there is no explicit music, but regular rhythm to the assemblage of words, the result is verse. When their is neither explicit music nor regular rhythm the result is prose. From halvard Mon Jan 12 08:09:51 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:09:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Antin, 10 Songs from "Novel Poem" Message-ID: 10 Songs 1 why not the one on the shelf as easily as the one in the lab but why not the one in the lab as easily as the one on the shelf 2 he'd say that the good time always gives way to the hard and that the hard time always softens again to the good and that was something you could see anywhere but you saw it better if you lived by the sea 3 and some were on horses that were on the way down and some horses had stopped higher and some had been low and were starting to go up again and some clamored on their horses 'pay another dime and start it again' and yet iliomycin grows like a dream handles like a charm and protects nothing and some said 'i wasnt eager to try it at first' and some had been frightened from the start and had needed someone to stand beside them and some wanted to step off and walk away and some dont like merry-go-rounds unless they can run them and some just dont like merry-go-rounds and some said in the fashion of a frugal woman 'if you had saved your first dime you'd still have it' 4 one way or another the species will survive one way or another it will find a means that will work just to get a fair share grub and lebensraum and another fellows poison the small birds were up and busy at 6 oclock and the starlings didnt get up till 8 standing here on the frozen ground something about that pleased him 5 you are talking to someone and you look up and it is not that person or everybody begins saying it is time you are filled with anxiety and go about asking what is going to happen and they look at you and dont answer climbing the stairs he had bridled with fear and entering he had found himself in a narrow smelly corridor he was travelling on an unreal train but it was not he it was a boy named Michael Rose 6 will you do it Tom will i do what will you leave 7 she said it without self pity what would she do in Israel this frail old lady of seventy Israel was for all the land that would flow with milk and honey 8 they may act through an intermediary or maintain their anonymity through a letter or telephone call whatever the means employed they should address themselves to the judicial authority 9 she had dozed a little after Avignon it was ridiculous she knew France was at peace the Germans had gone Vichy was a thing of the past on the train no one had spoken and he couldnt have cared less she had passed no checkpoint there had been no search no eruption of men in uniform no look of suspicion in anyone's eyes on the platform she put her bag down 10 he passed his hand over his gaunt brow it would never stop it was in the bone --David Antin part i fr. "Novel Poem" in *Selected Poems: 1963-1973* [Los Angeles: Sun & Moon, 1991] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus Mon Jan 12 08:43:27 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:43:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40025E2F.17004.515A28@localhost> > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find > > a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? > > I/by? From marcus Mon Jan 12 08:46:26 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:46:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40025EE2.16864.5412B4@localhost> > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > two longest rhyming words are in English. ... On 11 Jan 2004 at 6:33, James Cervantes wrote: > Impossibility/probability - fer starters Those words neither rhyme nor even have the same number of syllables. But what can be expected along these lines from someone who says he has never read and will never read Tennyson? M From ron.silliman Mon Jan 12 09:14:33 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:14:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000501c3d916$6ad57db0$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout The gun as the verb in the syntax of cinema - shortchanging the reader/viewer in House of Sand & Fog Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry Dickinson - Niedecker - Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada's ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York Defining the line in speech as well as writing Blog less, blog better John Godfrey's Private Lemonade: the role of syntax in abstraction What the value of prose can bring to the poem Silent rhyme: Marianne Moore & the question of the line Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From tadrichards Mon Jan 12 10:09:22 2004 From: tadrichards (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:09:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <40025EE2.16864.5412B4@localhost> Message-ID: <005f01c3d91e$0f419b70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" prefix to both words. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game > > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > > two longest rhyming words are in English. ... > > On 11 Jan 2004 at 6:33, James Cervantes wrote: > > Impossibility/probability - fer starters > > Those words neither rhyme nor even have the same number of syllables. > But what can be expected along these lines from someone who says he > has never read and will never read Tennyson? > > M > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus Mon Jan 12 10:37:31 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:37:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <005f01c3d91e$0f419b70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <400278EB.29603.3B78C8@localhost> > > > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get > > > > myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what > > > > the two longest rhyming words are in English. ... > > > > On 11 Jan 2004 at 6:33, James Cervantes wrote: > > > Impossibility/probability - fer starters > > > > Those words neither rhyme nor even have the same number of > > syllables. But what can be expected along these lines from someone > > who says he has never read and will never read Tennyson? On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > prefix to both words. Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? From halvard Mon Jan 12 12:28:10 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:28:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Books people vs. movies people Message-ID: Here's a link to an interesting piece comparing books people to movies people. http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001242.html#001242 Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From JforJames Mon Jan 12 17:18:04 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:18:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <41.38d8a9b7.2d34771c@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/04 10:38:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > never read Tennyson? > > On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > > It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > > prefix to both words. > > Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What > do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? I might be Kraken up, but it seems there's enuf assonance and consonance working there to qualify as near, imperfect, para, approximate or slant rime. Finnegan From jvcervantes Mon Jan 12 17:22:39 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:22:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <41.38d8a9b7.2d34771c@aol.com> Message-ID: <40031E2E.A25A3CC8@earthlink.net> No one ever said the syllable count had to be the same, just more than 4 syllables. And, it bores me to tears to have to say this, but I think MB is implying that rhyme has to be exact in sound and syllable count for it to satisfy his sense of exact rhyme. I suspect he doesn't recognize "near, imperfect, para, approximate or slant rime." He will argue this, of course, and probably refer once again to the fact that I don't like to read Tennyson. But so what? - Jim JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/12/04 10:38:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, > marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > > never read Tennyson? > > > > On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > > > It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > > > prefix to both words. > > > > Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What > > do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? > I might be Kraken up, but it seems there's enuf assonance > and consonance working there to qualify as near, imperfect, para, > approximate or slant rime. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 Mon Jan 12 17:42:07 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:42:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <15d.2b84c3c0.2d347cbf@cs.com> In a message dated 1/12/2004 4:31:01 PM Central Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > >>never read Tennyson? > >> > >> On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > >> >It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > >> >prefix to both words. > >> > >> Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What > >> do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? > >I might be Kraken up, but it seems there's enuf assonance > >and consonance working there to qualify as near, imperfect, para, > >approximate or slant rime. > >Finnegan > >______________ I guess everyone has already thought of Byron's "hen pecked you all" and "intellectual." He elides "intellectual" to "intlectual." But this would be a four-syllable rhyme, and more or less exact. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Jan 12 18:00:19 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:00:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <197.248002ef.2d348103@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/04 9:12:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, ron.silliman at verizon.net writes: > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - > A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry > (from Jan 6 entry) This poem, which is entitled "Seconds," is worth exploring in greater length, both as an instance of this sharper edge & because it is an excellent example of how Armantrout uses the sectionality of her poetry to create objects that are every bit as torqued as the syntax of that first sentence. The title can be read in multiple ways &, always a good strategy when reading Armantrout, all of them bring something to the text. In the second section, lines are double-spaced, as tho stressing the ambivalence of their connectedness: A moment is everything one person (see below) takes in simultaneously though some or much of what a creature feels may not reach conscious awareness and only a small part (or none) of this will be carried forward to the next instant. These linebreaks are chasms ? the first line is a possible sentence in itself & its meaning transforms the instant that it becomes qualified as what a person takes in, tho the echo of our initial reading never fully fades. Again we have a reference, this time parenthetical ? (see below) ? that seems potentially as wayward as that question mark in the first section. And again we have words selected so carefully ? creature, for example ? one can almost feel the pain of precision literally exacted by such writing. The temporality of this section, driven by space & so many enjambed lines, slows down our reading &, with it, our perception of time. --? Ron, for starters, I enjoy your blog. (Thanks for keeping the list updated re your new entires.) But I want to quibble with the (supposed) merits of this Armantrout outtake. I don't want to judge the book/poetry by a few lines, but I really can't see what you're seeing here. It's an extended bit of abstract musing without any rhetorical flourish to support it. It starts with what must be cliche or at least something that's been better said before... "A moment is everything" "One person" and "a creature" are fairly bland philosophical constructs in context of this passage. In the poetry of Wallace Stevens this kind of surrogate/effigy/stand-in can come to life because there is so much more going on in the language itself. "conscious awareness" I tried to work with that one...but, I think, if not redundant, it's just a difference without distinction in the ccontext of what's being said. (And then there's the philosophical/psychological question of whether one could "feel" what hadn't crossed the threshold into consciousness?) The single virtue of this excerpt was that wry parenthetical "(see below)." But that was hardly enuf to redeem the quoted passage. (If the quoted lines in a review are like the teaser frames in a movie trailer, then these lines didn't get to me.) The other quoted bit from Armantrout was somewhat better, I thought... The point is to see through the dying, who pinch non-existent objects from the air sequentially,?to this seasons laying on of withered leaves? -- This sequence, tho awkwardly phrased, had the virtue of that nice turn of phrase: "laying on of/withered leave?" Finnegan From marcus Mon Jan 12 18:59:02 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:59:02 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <200401122345.i0CNjIE1001561@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > No one ever said the syllable count had to be the same, just more than 4 > syllables. And, it bores me to tears to have to say this, but I think > MB is implying that rhyme has to be exact in sound and syllable count > for it to satisfy his sense of exact rhyme. I suspect he doesn't > recognize "near, imperfect, para, approximate or slant rime."<< Fergive me fer livin' but when someone starts with "opposition/proposition" and ask if anyone knows any such rhymes of more syllables you've got yer head so far up yer ass that ya can part yer hair with yer teeth if ya think "impossible/improbable" is god damned rhyme -- especially if ya claim ya never read Tennyson and are so proud of it ya declare ya never will, as you have, Jim Cervantes. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 Mon Jan 12 19:56:07 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:56:07 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <200401122345.i0CNjIE1001561@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <008601c3d970$07a0f760$0fba8051@MyPC> ... it's not quite to the theme of rhyme (and has no one yet pointed-out that it's virtually impossible to use double- or more-than-double rhyme in English outside comic verse -- see Byron and Auden) but given the emerging Tennyson connection: << Tennyson said of himself that he knew the quantity of the sounds of every English word except perhaps "scissors." >> Mind you, Tennyson's ventures into quantitative verse in English (like every else's except Arthur Hugh Clough) are pretty inept. Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Mon Jan 12 21:05:13 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:05:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <40025E2F.17004.515A28@localhost> Message-ID: <023a01c3d979$af6ef2e0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > > two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find > > > a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? > > > I/by? > > > From an > Attitude of ripe superiority > Grumman Does anyone else find me taking "an attitude of ripe superiority" above? > Demonstrates his rhyme inferiority. Congratulations on a five-syllable rhyme, Marcus. Even if you did have to demonstrate your grammar inferiority when telling us about it. propositionally/oppositionally --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus Tue Jan 13 08:43:30 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:43:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <008601c3d970$07a0f760$0fba8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <4003AFB2.28955.4DF482@localhost> On 13 Jan 2004 at 0:56, Robin Hamilton wrote: > ... it's not quite to the theme of rhyme (and has no one yet > pointed-out that it's virtually impossible to use double- or > more-than-double rhyme in English outside comic verse -- see Byron and > Auden) ...<< Nothing comic about this: A Forsaken Garden AC Swinburne In a coign of the cliff between lowland and highland, At the sea-down's edge between windward and lee, Walled round with rocks as an inland island, The ghost of a garden fronts the sea. A girdle of brushwood and thorn encloses The steep square slope of the blossomless bed Where the weeds that grew green from the graves of its roses Now lie dead. The fields fall southward, abrupt and broken, To the low last edge of the long lone land. If a step should sound or a word be spoken, Would a ghost not rise at the strange guest's hand? So long have the grey bare walks lain guestless, Through branches and briars if a man make way, He shall find no life but the sea-wind's, restless Night and day. The dense hard passage is blind and stifled That crawls by a track none turn to climb To the strait waste place that the years have rifled Of all but the thorns that are touched not of time. The thorns he spares when the rose is taken; The rocks are left when he wastes the plain. The wind that wanders, the weeds wind-shaken, These remain. Not a flower to be pressed of the foot that falls not; As the heart of a dead man the seed-plots are dry; From JforJames Wed Jan 14 15:32:56 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:32:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Indian Poetry in English Message-ID: <1f1.17462294.2d370178@aol.com> This piece starts out as an Indian version of "Can Poetry Matter?." But it gets better when Jayanta Mahapatra makes his case for what should be important in poetry today... http://www.thedailystar.net/2004/01/10/d40110210288.htm Poets are expected to make sense of life. If they find life today in fragments, they must not leave it that way. Perhaps they should have that desire to produce poetry that transcends the ills of modern life rather than poetry that helplessly mirrors them. It is easy for me to say this when I know I am guilty myself of such writing. But I am afraid this is a difficult task to achieve. From halvard Wed Jan 14 18:03:41 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:03:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two by Jackson Mac Low Message-ID: Manifest To manifest: to be, visibly. To make visible what was formerly invisible or otherwise to make sensible what was formerly not. To present or make present, vocally, visibly, or otherwise, one's views, sentiments, objections, etc., in reference to a matter of public concern. Manifest: a commercial document listing constituents of cargo or names of passengers on a plane, ship, or other vehicle. A manifest of meanings. To make evident or certain by showing or displaying. Readily perceived by the senses, especially by sight. Easily understood or recognized. Obvious. To become obvious. To be, obviously. To be, recognizable. To emerge as a figure from a ground. To become visible, or otherwise perceptible, as an agent. To act. To make interior states perceptible to others. Manifesto: a public declaration of principles, intentions, views, or feelings. A document in which is said explicitly what otherwise might have remained implicit in political, artistic, or other practice. To present or make present. To present for inspection what might not otherwise have been able to be inspected. To make the implicit explicit. To make the hidden unhidden. To say what might not otherwise have been said. Choose one or more of the following: Every text is a manifesto. Every (adjective) text is a manifesto. Every text worth reading is a manifesto. 18 June 1983 New York Unmanifest What the maker of a manifesto does not comprehend or acknowledge is the basic unmanifestness from which and within which each manifest- ation takes place. It is this neglect or ignorance that calls forth repugnance when a manifesto is proclaimed or published, especially one regarding art. As if what comes to being in and as the work of art could ever be totally manifest or even manifest at all without its abiding steadfastly in the unmanifest! A work of art is a manifesto only insofar as it is its own antimanifesto. 21 June 1983 New York --Jackson Mac Low fr. *Bloomsday* [Barrytown, NY: Station Hill Press, 1984] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman Wed Jan 14 18:19:19 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:19:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers References: <001801c3d90e$d9dec250$91684e0c@tia> Message-ID: <02f601c3daf4$d7152b30$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Does Bloom remind anyone of anybody who sometimes posts to new-poetry? I think Moretti is on to something valuable but narrow-minded. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tia Ballantine To: cwuhm-l at hawaii.edu Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers Studying Literature by the Numbers January 10, 2004 By EMILY EAKIN NY Times If Franco Moretti had his way, literature scholars would stop reading books and start counting, graphing and mapping them instead. For an English professor, this is an ambition verging on apostasy. But Mr. Moretti, a professor of English and comparative literature at Stanford and director of the university's center for the study of the novel, insists that such a move could bring new luster to a tired field, one that in some respects, he says, is among "the most backwards disciplines in the academy." Mr. Moretti, 53, has been honing his vision of a text-free literary scholarship in books and articles over the last two decades. And now he is issuing a manifesto. "Graphs, Maps, Trees: Abstract Models for Literary History," which just appeared in the November/December issue of New Left Review, a British journal of politics and culture, is merely the first installment. (Two more will follow in subsequent issues.) But in it Mr. Moretti makes his most forceful case yet for his approach, a heretical blend of quantitative history, geography and evolutionary theory. Literary study, he argues, has been a random, unsystematic affair. For any given period, scholars focus on a select group of a mere few hundred texts: the canon. As a result, they have allowed a narrow, distorting slice of literary history to pass for the total picture. "What a minimal fraction of the literary field we all work on," Mr. Moretti declares, tactfully including himself among the guilty. "A canon of 200 novels, for instance, sounds very large for 19th-century Britain (and is much larger than the current one), but is still less than 1 per cent of the novels that were actually published: 20,000, 30, more, no one really knows - and close reading won't help here, a novel a day every day of the year would take a century or so." The perils of such a method, he writes, are clear: "A field this large cannot be understood by stitching together separate bits of knowledge about individual cases, because it isn't a sum of individual cases: it's a collective system, that should be grasped as such, as a whole." Equally clear, he maintains, is the remedy: the way to "a more rational literary history" is to replace close reading with abstract models borrowed from the sciences. Where other scholars quote from "Pamela," "Moll Flanders" or "Tom Jones" - traditionally considered among the first modern novels - Mr. Moretti offers bar charts, maps and time lines instead. A vast synthesis of material (much of it gathered by other scholars working on a single period or genre), his is a history of literature as data points, one that looks as if it could have been lifted from an economics textbook. Here the 18th-century British novel is represented by its publication rate: a single, undulating fever line. Likewise entire genres - including the epistolary, the gothic and the historical novel - as well the literary outputs of countries like Japan, Italy, Spain and Nigeria. Viewed from this level of abstraction, Mr. Moretti argues, literary history looks significantly different from what is commonly supposed. For example, it is clear, he writes, that the novel did not experience a single "rise," as is frequently taught (following the title of a famous book by the critic Ian Watt), but went through repeated cycles of growth and retrenchment, with political crises corresponding to dips in publication rates. So, too, according to another graph, did the ratio of male to female authors. As Mr. Moretti sums up the point: "It's fascinating to see how researchers are convinced that they are all describing something unique (the gender shift, the elevation of the novel, the gentrification, the invention of high and low, the feminization, the sentimental education, the invasion . . . ), whereas in all likelihood they are all observing the same comet that keeps crossing and recrossing the sky: the same literary cycle." In some ways, Mr. Moretti's quantitative method is simply the latest in a long line of efforts to make literary criticism look more like science. From Russian formalism in the 1920's to New Criticism in the 1950's and structuralism and semiotics in the 1960's and 70's, the discipline's major movements share a desire to portray literature as a system governed by hidden laws and structures whose operations it is the critic's job to reveal. But in its formal renunciation of individual texts - and, more provocatively, of reading - Mr. Moretti's approach, at least as he sketches it in New Left Review, is conceivably more radical than anything his predecessors dreamed up. Which doesn't mean that he always knows what to make of his findings. For example, disparate novelistic genres, when mapped out together across a time line, appear to share some intriguing features: an individual life span of about 25 to 30 years and a tendency to emerge and die out in clusters. Thirty years is the length of a human generation, Mr. Moretti notes. But then, he concedes, people are born - and generations begun - every day. So what explains the regularity with which genres appear and disappear? Mr. Moretti isn't sure. But it is precisely this kind of question, he argues, that scholars have overlooked by focusing on specific texts rather than literature as a whole. As he put it in a telephone interview from Rome, where he was on vacation: "The big picture is not just bigger in terms of the number of texts. The system is literally a system with different properties than individual texts. This is something literary studies would never face if we just kept reading and rereading the same texts." Maybe so. But given the extent to which instruction, research and reputations in the field are yoked to just that activity, even Mr. Moretti's admirers say his approach is unlikely to win many converts. "It's an extraordinarily brave and promising project that carries the danger of taking the study of literature away from reading, which is what keeps us and our students going," said Jonathan Arac, the chairman of the English department at Columbia University and a specialist in the 19th- and 20th-century novel. Harold Bloom, the Yale English professor famous for his prodigious command of canonical literature, was more dismissive. Interrupting a description of the theory, he pronounced Mr. Moretti "an absurdity." "I am interested in reading," he said with an audible shudder. "That's all I'm interested in." Mr. Moretti cheerfully acknowledged that his ideas were controversial. But that has not dampened his enthusiasm. "After Christmas, I'm going to teach a class on electronic data in which we will work on 8,000 titles from the mid-18th century to the 19th century," he said, eagerly elaborating his vision of what he called "literature without texts." "My little dream," he added wistfully, "is of a literary class that would look more like a lab than a Platonic academy." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Thu Jan 15 06:15:36 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 04:15:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter, 2003-04 issue of The Salt River Review Message-ID: <40067658.B78FFDE5@earthlink.net> The Winter, 2003-04 issue of The Salt River Review at http://www.poetserv.org is now online, with poetry by Yannis Ritsos, Jalina Mhyana, Laurel Snyder, Jeff Schiff, Halvard Johnson, & Joe Somoza; fiction by Rachel Schwartz, Margo Note, & Jesse Goldstein; literary Non-fiction from Katheen Alcal? & Stanley Jenkins. The Salt River Review considers manuscripts for its Spring, 2004 issue January through March. Please send to the appropriate editors and follow the guidelines: http://www.poetserv.org/guidelines.html - Jim From FanwoodJEL Thu Jan 15 11:18:37 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:18:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] calling all cars Message-ID: <162.2a96c8f5.2d38175d@aol.com> Does anybody have an email address for Robert Hass or Michael Ondaatje? Thanks, Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.alexander1 Thu Jan 15 09:35:12 2004 From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:35:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor-www.writersalmanac.org References: <11b.2c88666d.2d247138@cs.com> Message-ID: <000601c3dbad$2e4b0740$c787fac1@pavilion> Rsgwynn, Nice Thread, good poems Thanks, J.A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor One of my poems was read on Writer's Almanac for 30 December. www.writersalmanac.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.alexander1 Thu Jan 15 09:44:03 2004 From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:44:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter thoughts References: <3FEFEC49.32247.5164D6@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c3dbad$2f2cdbc0$c787fac1@pavilion> MB I enjoyed reading that. Thanks, JA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Winter thoughts > > I'm not certain what you are attempting to > > prove with these opening passages. I wonder > > if more than a few great (canonized) poems > > could stand on their first lines (if not for the > > teacherly indoctrination that made us love > > them)? > > Finnegan > > Back out of all this now too much for us, > Back in a time made simple by the loss. > > Had we but world enough, and time, > This coyness, lady, were no crime > > A sudden blow: the great wings beating still > Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed > By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill, > > When I see a couple of kids > And guess he's fucking her and she's > Taking pills or wearing a diaphragm, > > A.U.C. 334: about this date, > For a sexual misdemeanor which she denied, > The vestal virgin Postumia was tried; > > Think not, because I wonder where you fled, > That I would lift a pin to see you there; > > There was such speed in her little body, > And such lightness in her footfall, > > The sea is calm tonight. > The tide is full, the moon lies fair > Upon the straits; on the French coast the light > Gleams and is gone; > > Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, > Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, > > She fears him, and will always ask > What fated her to choose him; > > The force that through the green fuse drives the flower > Drives my green age; > > In a coign of the cliff between lowland and highland, > At the sea-down's edge between windward and lee, > Walled round with rocks as an inland island, > > I must not think of you; and, tired yet strong, > I shun the thought that lurks in all delight -- > > He disappeared in the dead of winter: > The brooks were frozen, the airports almost deserted, > And snow disfigured the public statues; > > Thou shalt have one God only; who > Would be at the expense of two? > > Nothing is plumb, level or square: > the studs are bowed, the joists > are shaky by nature, no piece fits > any other piece without a gap > > That's my last Duchess painted on the wall, > Looking as if she were alive; > > We stood by a pond that winter day, > And the sun was white, as though chidden of God, > > A single flower he sent me, since we met. > All tenderly his messenger he chose; > Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet - > > What were we playing? Was it prisoner's base? > I ran with whacking keds > Down the cart-road past Rickard's place, > > That's what you get for loving me > That's what you get for loving me > Well everything you had is gone, as you can see; > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Thu Jan 15 16:58:26 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:58:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Philip Whalen, "Hymnus ad Patrem Sinensis" Message-ID: HYMNUS AD PATREM SINENSIS I praise those ancient Chinamen Who left me a few words, Usually a pointless joke or a silly question A line of poetry drunkenly scrawled on the margin of a quick splashed picture--bug, leaf, caricature of Teacher on paper held together now by little more than ink & their own strength brushed momentarily over it Their world & several others since Gone to hell in a handbasket, they knew it-- Cheered as it whizzed by-- & conked out among the busted spring rain cherryblossom winejars Happy to have saved us all. 31:viii:58 --Philip Whalen, from Decompressions, Selected Poems, 1969 Hal, with thanks to Larry Goodell for passing this one along Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames Thu Jan 15 18:57:41 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:57:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Shearsman 57 is now online Message-ID: <12f.397caefd.2d3882f5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:08:00 +0000 From: Tony Frazer Subject: Shearsman 57 is now online http://www.shearsman.com/ where you should click on < current issue > in the magazine jump menu, top right. This issue features poetry by Joshua Auerbach Michael Donhauser (translated by Iain Galbraith) Laurie Duggan Erling Friis-Baastad Sam Sampson Catherine Wagner John Welch My apologies to those receiving this notification more than once. Tony Frazer Editor, Shearsman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afilreis Fri Jan 9 07:20:25 2004 From: afilreis (Al Filreis) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:20:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hejinian March 23 Message-ID: <200401091220.i09CKPfp026815@dept.english.upenn.edu> JOIN US BY WEBCAST ********************************** If you cannot come to Philadelphia for these events, please join us live by webcast. Events starred(**) below will be webcast live. To reserve a space in our webcast audience--and to receive further instructions--please write to whfellow at writing.upenn.edu. ********************************** KELLY WRITERS HOUSE FELLOWS 2004 The people of the Kelly Writers House proudly present our sixth year of Writers House Fellows: Russell Banks, Lyn Hejinian, and James Alan McPherson. All events are held at 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, and are free and open to the public. Spaces are limited; rsvp now to reserve a seat by writing to whfellow at writing.upenn.edu or by calling (215) 573-9749. novelist RUSSELL BANKS ---------------------- Monday, February 16, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** poet LYN HEJINIAN ----------------- Monday, March 22, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** short story writer & essayist JAMES ALAN McPHERSON --------------------------------------------------- Monday, April 19, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** For much more information: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow . Writers House Fellows is funded by a generous grant from Paul Kelly. previous Fellows: ---------------------------- Susan Sontag 2003 Walter Bernstein Laurie Anderson John Ashbery 2002 Charles Fuller Michael Cunningham June Jordan 2001 David Sedaris Tony Kushner Grace Paley 2000 Robert Creeley John Edgar Wideman Gay Talese 1999 recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ From tad Tue Jan 13 20:31:02 2004 From: tad (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:31:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sunken Garden Message-ID: <004b01c3da3e$12d76780$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 07, 2004 Event: National Poetry Competition Place: Sunken Garden Poetry Festival, Hill-Stead Museum, Farmington, CT 06032 Time: Submission deadline: February 1, 2004 Contact: Joy Pachla, pachlaj at hillstead.org, 860.677.4787 The February 1, 2004, deadline is nearly here for the Sunken Garden Poetry Festival's first-ever national competition-and the prizes are awesome! A first-place winner will receive $800, and on June 30, 2004, give a feature reading in Hill-Stead Museum's famed Sunken Garden Poetry Festival. Hill-Stead also will publish a limited edition chapbook of the winning poet's verse (winner receives 50 copies), and Connecticut Review will feature the winner's poems in its pages. A second-place winner will give an introductory reading on June 30, publish in Connecticut Review and receive $400. Poets Marilyn Nelson and Robert Cording are the final judges. Winners will be announced by May, 2004. Award-winning poet Grace Paley kicks off the festival season on June 2, 2004. Go to www.hillstead.org, or contact Joy Pachla at 860.677.4787 ext 111 or pachlaj at hillstead.org. Poetry Competition Guidelines: Eligibility. Must be at least 18 years of age and reside in the United States. Poets featured in the festival 1992-2003 are ineligible, although previous winners of the Young Poets Competition and Competition for Connecticut Adults may enter. Submission. One entry per individual. Send two copies of up to three poems, written in English, each with a maximum line length of 65. No previously published poems or simultaneous submissions. Do not write your name on copies of poems. Send cover sheet with name, contact information, one-paragraph bio and list of titles or first lines. Mail all sheets with $20 (make check payable to Hill-Stead Museum) and SASE to: National Poetry Competition, Hill-Stead Museum, 35 Mountain Road, Farmington, CT 06032 Finalists. Up to five finalists will be required to submit chapbook-length manuscripts. OK, my question. Why is an organization as successful and well-funded as Sunken Garden charging a $20 entry fee? Tad Richards "Situations" http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Thu Jan 15 23:10:05 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:10:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I put my foot in it Message-ID: And now I've committed to writing a sonnet a day (except Thursdays) until April Fools' Day. The first 9 are already up at my blog, http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ Obviously, I make no claims to their value as they are now. But I'll work at them come April 1, and any comments, good or bad, are appreciated. foolishly, Michael From james.alexander1 Thu Jan 15 17:11:51 2004 From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:11:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <001801c3d90e$d9dec250$91684e0c@tia> <02f601c3daf4$d7152b30$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000901c3dc19$0a7f16a0$8b84fac1@pavilion> Smiles for 2004. Here is one approach, perhaps this is not what you had in mind Bob! (hope the cut & paste does not alter this) Bi-lingual bare with it Vous ?tes-vous d?j? demand? ce que ?a voulait dire, se donner ? 100 % ? Have you ever ask what it means to give it 100% Et comment font ceux qui se vantent de se donner ? plus de 100 % ? And how some boast & bragg of giving it more than your best > 100% ? Voici une r?ponse qui donne ? r?fl?chir... Some thoughts & ...solutions? "Time gentlemen please, rings the barman". C'est l'heure (Leure!) Messieurs (les DAMES ne boivent pas ! qq'un doit conduire. Consid?rant que... Let a to z be as follows: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z valent (are worth) : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Alors... T R A V A I L (inflation!?) W O R K (deflation!?) 20 18 1 22 1 9 12 = 83% 21 15 18 11 = 65% ! E N G A G E M E N T (application : 1,16,16,12,9,3...etc ) 5 14 7 1 7 5 13 5 14 20 = 91% C O M P ? T E N C E 3 15 13 16 5 20 5 14 3 5 = 99% On s'approche du r?sultat, n'est ce pas? Getting nearer to the result Alors... Then.. A T T I T U D E 1 20 20 9 20 21 4 5 = 100% D I S C I P L I N E 4 9 19 3 9 16 12 9 14 5 = 100% Wow, impressionnant, non? Continuons... V A N T A R D I S E P R E P O S T E R O U S 22 1 14 20 1 18 4 9 19 5 = 113% 16 18 5 16 15 19 20 5 18 15 21 19=187% On vient de p?ter le 100% !!! We have just bursted the 100% and. Et voyons jusqu'o? cela peut nous mener... PREPOSTEROUS And we are nearing the 200 per hr (no units!) !!! Et on approche les 200 ? l'heure ! (pas d'unit?s ! ) ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 12:19 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers Does Bloom remind anyone of anybody who sometimes posts to new-poetry? I think Moretti is on to something valuable but narrow-minded. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tia Ballantine To: cwuhm-l at hawaii.edu Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers Studying Literature by the Numbers January 10, 2004 By EMILY EAKIN NY Times If Franco Moretti had his way, literature scholars would stop reading books and start counting, graphing and mapping them instead. For an English professor, this is an ambition verging on apostasy. But Mr. Moretti, a professor of English and comparative literature at Stanford and director of the university's center for the study of the novel, insists that such a move could bring new luster to a tired field, one that in some respects, he says, is among "the most backwards disciplines in the academy." Mr. Moretti, 53, has been honing his vision of a text-free literary scholarship in books and articles over the last two decades. And now he is issuing a manifesto. "Graphs, Maps, Trees: Abstract Models for Literary History," which just appeared in the November/December issue of New Left Review, a British journal of politics and culture, is merely the first installment. (Two more will follow in subsequent issues.) But in it Mr. Moretti makes his most forceful case yet for his approach, a heretical blend of quantitative history, geography and evolutionary theory. Literary study, he argues, has been a random, unsystematic affair. For any given period, scholars focus on a select group of a mere few hundred texts: the canon. As a result, they have allowed a narrow, distorting slice of literary history to pass for the total picture. "What a minimal fraction of the literary field we all work on," Mr. Moretti declares, tactfully including himself among the guilty. "A canon of 200 novels, for instance, sounds very large for 19th-century Britain (and is much larger than the current one), but is still less than 1 per cent of the novels that were actually published: 20,000, 30, more, no one really knows - and close reading won't help here, a novel a day every day of the year would take a century or so." The perils of such a method, he writes, are clear: "A field this large cannot be understood by stitching together separate bits of knowledge about individual cases, because it isn't a sum of individual cases: it's a collective system, that should be grasped as such, as a whole." Equally clear, he maintains, is the remedy: the way to "a more rational literary history" is to replace close reading with abstract models borrowed from the sciences. Where other scholars quote from "Pamela," "Moll Flanders" or "Tom Jones" - traditionally considered among the first modern novels - Mr. Moretti offers bar charts, maps and time lines instead. A vast synthesis of material (much of it gathered by other scholars working on a single period or genre), his is a history of literature as data points, one that looks as if it could have been lifted from an economics textbook. Here the 18th-century British novel is represented by its publication rate: a single, undulating fever line. Likewise entire genres - including the epistolary, the gothic and the historical novel - as well the literary outputs of countries like Japan, Italy, Spain and Nigeria. Viewed from this level of abstraction, Mr. Moretti argues, literary history looks significantly different from what is commonly supposed. For example, it is clear, he writes, that the novel did not experience a single "rise," as is frequently taught (following the title of a famous book by the critic Ian Watt), but went through repeated cycles of growth and retrenchment, with political crises corresponding to dips in publication rates. So, too, according to another graph, did the ratio of male to female authors. As Mr. Moretti sums up the point: "It's fascinating to see how researchers are convinced that they are all describing something unique (the gender shift, the elevation of the novel, the gentrification, the invention of high and low, the feminization, the sentimental education, the invasion . . . ), whereas in all likelihood they are all observing the same comet that keeps crossing and recrossing the sky: the same literary cycle." In some ways, Mr. Moretti's quantitative method is simply the latest in a long line of efforts to make literary criticism look more like science. From Russian formalism in the 1920's to New Criticism in the 1950's and structuralism and semiotics in the 1960's and 70's, the discipline's major movements share a desire to portray literature as a system governed by hidden laws and structures whose operations it is the critic's job to reveal. But in its formal renunciation of individual texts - and, more provocatively, of reading - Mr. Moretti's approach, at least as he sketches it in New Left Review, is conceivably more radical than anything his predecessors dreamed up. Which doesn't mean that he always knows what to make of his findings. For example, disparate novelistic genres, when mapped out together across a time line, appear to share some intriguing features: an individual life span of about 25 to 30 years and a tendency to emerge and die out in clusters. Thirty years is the length of a human generation, Mr. Moretti notes. But then, he concedes, people are born - and generations begun - every day. So what explains the regularity with which genres appear and disappear? Mr. Moretti isn't sure. But it is precisely this kind of question, he argues, that scholars have overlooked by focusing on specific texts rather than literature as a whole. As he put it in a telephone interview from Rome, where he was on vacation: "The big picture is not just bigger in terms of the number of texts. The system is literally a system with different properties than individual texts. This is something literary studies would never face if we just kept reading and rereading the same texts." Maybe so. But given the extent to which instruction, research and reputations in the field are yoked to just that activity, even Mr. Moretti's admirers say his approach is unlikely to win many converts. "It's an extraordinarily brave and promising project that carries the danger of taking the study of literature away from reading, which is what keeps us and our students going," said Jonathan Arac, the chairman of the English department at Columbia University and a specialist in the 19th- and 20th-century novel. Harold Bloom, the Yale English professor famous for his prodigious command of canonical literature, was more dismissive. Interrupting a description of the theory, he pronounced Mr. Moretti "an absurdity." "I am interested in reading," he said with an audible shudder. "That's all I'm interested in." Mr. Moretti cheerfully acknowledged that his ideas were controversial. But that has not dampened his enthusiasm. "After Christmas, I'm going to teach a class on electronic data in which we will work on 8,000 titles from the mid-18th century to the 19th century," he said, eagerly elaborating his vision of what he called "literature without texts." "My little dream," he added wistfully, "is of a literary class that would look more like a lab than a Platonic academy." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Fri Jan 16 07:27:15 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:27:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <000901c3dc19$0a7f16a0$8b84fac1@pavilion> Message-ID: <40079253.5514.F2768@localhost> > If Franco Moretti had his way, literature scholars would > stop reading books and start counting, graphing and mapping them > instead.... > The perils of such a method, he writes, are clear: "A field this large > cannot be understood by stitching together separate bits of knowledge > about individual cases, because it isn't a sum of individual cases: > it's a collective system, that should be grasped as such, as a whole."... > Bob Grumman > ... I think Moretti is on to something valuable but narrow- > minded. The notion of studying the patterns of a collective system still relies on defining the parts and the whole. There must be substantial agreement about what is X and what is not-X; for example, there must be agreement about what constitutes "the novel" and "the poem" even if all one wants to do is count how many were written. There has to be agreement about what counts as "publication". I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 08:04:22 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:04:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <001801c3d90e$d9dec250$91684e0c@tia> <02f601c3daf4$d7152b30$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000901c3dc19$0a7f16a0$8b84fac1@pavilion> Message-ID: <01c201c3dc31$43e64ae0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I enjoyed this, James. Ironically, at another discussion group I've been arguing with a friend who said I had no discipline, so I really picked up on discipline equals 100%. I would suggest a circular approach to the weighing that had the percentages sart at one after 100 is reached. A related approach would be to divided each word's sum by the number of letters in the word to find the word's mass. "Zzzz" would thus be the weightiest word in English. The process, a kind of found-meaning procedure, reminds me of a process carried out for a while by a guy named Michael Winkler, who soon thereafter disappeared from the poetry scene, as far as I know. He made clocks of the alphabet so A would be at noon, F and G near the three, M and N at the six and T, I guess, at the nine. Then he'd take a word and draw a straight line on the clock from the word's first letter to its second, then from its second letter to its third, and so on. He'd end up with some kind of geometric shape. Often it was strangely appropriate for the word that was diagrammed. Can't remember any now, alas. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 10:00:40 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:00:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <40079253.5514.F2768@localhost> Message-ID: <023f01c3dc41$838592e0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different from mine. --Bob G. From marcus Fri Jan 16 10:09:50 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:09:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <023f01c3dc41$838592e0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4007B86E.16053.A4029F@localhost> On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different > from mine. Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person who disagreed with him. Marcus From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 12:51:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:51:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <4007B86E.16053.A4029F@localhost> Message-ID: <02be01c3dc59$5810ec50$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. > > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different > > from mine. > > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > who disagreed with him. > > Marcus > His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an absurdity." --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From elemenope Fri Jan 16 00:45:24 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:45:24 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Bob, Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," denotes. As I understand it, the word is not being employed to insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave intellectually. > >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >who disagreed with him Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise think tank. Richard Dillon -- From marcus Fri Jan 16 14:37:23 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:37:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <02be01c3dc59$5810ec50$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4007F723.11779.198F26B@localhost> > > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. > > > > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different > > > from mine. > > > > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, > > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems > > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > > who disagreed with him. > > Marcus On 16 Jan 2004 at 12:51, Bob Grumman wrote: > His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an > absurdity."<< And once again the very best you're capable of is name-calling, apparently. How sad. From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 15:55:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:55:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <006501c3dc73$02c54ba0$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," > denotes. A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some truth he hates. You can identify one by his methods, which I hope to make a full list of sometime. Usually he pretends to be sincerely seeking the truth when entering a discussion, so Bloom probably was too forthright for a genuine verosopath in this instance. Bloom is a thick-headed reactionary but probably not a verosopath. >As I understand it, the word is not being employed to > insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave > intellectually. The latter--but with an awareness that it would be taken as an insult and not minding that it would be. > >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > >who disagreed with him > > > Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise think tank. > > Richard Dillon I'd say (without knowing a great deal about either man) that they both believe in and try to promote (unpopular) fractions of truths they seem to think are full truths. I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. --Bob G. From marcus Fri Jan 16 16:42:53 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:42:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <006501c3dc73$02c54ba0$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4008148D.4882.20BDB17@localhost> On 16 Jan 2004 at 15:55, Bob Grumman wrote: > A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to > destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the > acceptance of some truth he hates.<< Which makes Grumman the pre-eminent verosopath since he is always determined to destroy any discussion. Not to mention the pattern and habit of his consistent name-calling, which seems to be what he conceives to be reasoned discussion. From atlas Fri Jan 16 16:48:57 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:48:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <006501c3dc73$02c54ba0$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005101c3dc7a$8b535140$739edf18@atlas> Grumman wrote: > A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy > it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some > truth he hates. How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning 'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. Mike Geary From JforJames Fri Jan 16 20:43:25 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE Message-ID: In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his > methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather > than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. > > I only glanced through the article you posted, but my reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit readers and traditional critics against those who would employ quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background information from texts. This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc. It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Sat Jan 17 01:49:47 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:49:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mars needs war! In-Reply-To: <004b01c3da3e$12d76780$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> References: <004b01c3da3e$12d76780$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <20040117014709.O59000@kpaul.spinweb.net> "mars needs war!" the leader of the UN- free world said to the world today. an aidperson quickly corrected him, saying mars needed women, not war, with a weak, unsure attempt at a smile. nonsense the lead- er said, the ladd- er of jacobs land- ed. editor's notes, the morning news and coffee and the weird brain- waves of a poet translating our time, our era, the beginning of the information age or the tail end of it - mars needs regime change the little green men can work for free here on good old planet earth. gotta mine those carbon crystals from sister mars - now politic- ally correct, un- like the French. meanwhile the widows and the children are hungry and abused, a -lone w/out recourse to a loan, an escape is very unlikely for them to attempt to boldly reach the stars. mars needs poets. the poetopath, -kpaul (at) mallasch.com p.s. i don't like the aidperson. can't find the word i want at the moment, tho ;) From grahamd Sat Jan 17 13:30:37 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:30:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuffed Message-ID: While traveling over the holidays, I amused myself with a most pleasant little anthology in the Everyman Pocket Poets series, *Eat, Drink, and Be Merry*. Very tasty, with the usual eclectic mix of poets from Catullus to Wendy Cope. I do like these pocket poets volumes, many of which seem to be edited by Peter Washington. In addition the thematic anthologies (food, gardens, marriage, the blues, etc.), they also have very good selections of Whitman, Stevens, Hardy, Plath, and others. Perfect for taking into dentists' waiting rooms and such. Here's a sample from the food anthology. Hogmanay Murdo gave the cock meal damped with whiskey. It stood on tiptoe, crowed eight times and fell flat on its beak. Later, Murdo, after the fifth verse of The Isle of Mull, fell, glass in hand, flat on his back--doing in six hours what the cock had done in two minutes. I was there. And now I see the cock crowing with Murdo's face and Murdo's wings flapping as down he went. It was a long way home. --Norman MacCaig. *Eat, Drink, and Be Merry: Poems about Food and Drink*, ed. Peter Washington. Everyman's Library Pocket Poets, 2003. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From hruggier Sat Jan 17 13:37:21 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:37:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuffed References: Message-ID: <001901c3dd28$f1f39a50$430a9942@Helen> Perfect timing - there's a Burns Night celebration next weekend - perhaps I'll read this for the recitation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:30 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuffed > While traveling over the holidays, I amused myself with a most pleasant > little anthology in the Everyman Pocket Poets series, *Eat, Drink, and Be > Merry*. Very tasty, with the usual eclectic mix of poets from Catullus to > Wendy Cope. > > I do like these pocket poets volumes, many of which seem to be edited by > Peter Washington. In addition the thematic anthologies (food, gardens, > marriage, the blues, etc.), they also have very good selections of Whitman, > Stevens, Hardy, Plath, and others. Perfect for taking into dentists' > waiting rooms and such. > > Here's a sample from the food anthology. > > > Hogmanay > > Murdo gave the cock meal > damped with whiskey. It stood > on tiptoe, crowed eight times > and fell flat on its beak. > > Later, Murdo, after the fifth verse > of The Isle of Mull, > fell, glass in hand, > flat on his back--doing in six hours > what the cock had done > in two minutes. > > I was there. And now I see > the cock crowing with Murdo's face > and Murdo's wings flapping > as down he went. > > It was a long way home. > > --Norman MacCaig. *Eat, Drink, and Be Merry: Poems about Food and Drink*, > ed. Peter Washington. Everyman's Library Pocket Poets, 2003. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From elemenope Sat Jan 17 03:11:36 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:11:36 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its meaning and usages. I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > Mike Geary (An elephant is painting a landscape on MoneyWorld TV in which the sky is blue and over the land. It seems we require a new word for an animal that can create art in spite of the common belief that such a feat is impossible. [PETAphiles will probably try to get in on that action somehow, either by unionizing the elephant artists {I have in my library a book which shows cats painting some interesting abstract expressionist canvases.} or having their handlers/owners arrested for slave labor.]) Richard Dillon >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Bob Grumman) > 2. Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (ELEMENOPE Productions) > 3. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Marcus Bales) > 4. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Bob Grumman) > 5. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Marcus Bales) > 6. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Michael Geary) > 7. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (JforJames at aol.com) > 8. mars needs war! (kpaul mallasch) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:51:15 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> >> > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > from mine. >> >> Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> who disagreed with him. >> >> Marcus >> >His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >absurdity." > >--Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:45:24 +0800 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: ELEMENOPE Productions >Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Bob, > >Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >denotes. As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >intellectually. >> >>>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > >who disagreed with him > > >Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American >Enterprise think tank. > >Richard Dillon > > >-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> > >> > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > > from mine. >> > >> > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> > who disagreed with him. >> > Marcus > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 12:51, Bob Grumman wrote: >> His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >> absurdity."<< > >And once again the very best you're capable of is name-calling, >apparently. How sad. > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:55:00 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >> denotes. > >A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy >it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >truth he hates. You can identify one by his methods, which I hope to make a >full list of sometime. Usually he pretends to be sincerely seeking the >truth when entering a discussion, so Bloom probably was too forthright for a >genuine verosopath in this instance. Bloom is a thick-headed reactionary >but probably not a verosopath. > >>As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >> insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >> intellectually. > >The latter--but with an awareness that it would be taken as an insult and >not minding that it would be. > >> >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> >who disagreed with him >> >> >> Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise >think tank. >> >> Richard Dillon > >I'd say (without knowing a great deal about either man) that they both >believe in and try to promote (unpopular) fractions of truths they seem to >think are full truths. I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. > >--Bob G. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:42:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 15:55, Bob Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >> destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the >> acceptance of some truth he hates.<< > >Which makes Grumman the pre-eminent verosopath since he is always >determined to destroy any discussion. Not to mention the pattern and >habit of his consistent name-calling, which seems to be what he >conceives to be reasoned discussion. > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Michael Geary" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:48:57 -0600 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > >Mike Geary > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: JforJames at aol.com >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:25 EST >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >> methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >> than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. >> >> >I only glanced through the article you posted, but my >reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit >readers and traditional critics against those who would employ >quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background >information from texts. >This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments >and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order >to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc. >It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic >critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism. >Finnegan > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:1= >2 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'm disappointed that Moretti d= >idn't extoll his
>methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather= >
>than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use.
>
>

>I only glanced through the article you posted, but my
>reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit
>readers and traditional critics against those who would employ
>quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background
>information from texts.
>This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments
>and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order
>to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc.
>It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic
>critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism.
>Finnegan
>
> >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:49:47 -0500 (EST) >From: kpaul mallasch >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] mars needs war! >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >"mars needs war!" >the leader of the UN- >free world said to >the world today. > >an aidperson >quickly corrected him, >saying mars needed women, >not war, with a weak, >unsure attempt at >a smile. > >nonsense the lead- >er said, the ladd- >er of jacobs land- >ed. > >editor's notes, >the morning news >and coffee and >the weird brain- >waves of a poet >translating our >time, our era, >the beginning of >the information >age or the tail >end of it - mars >needs regime change >the little green men >can work for free here >on good old planet earth. >gotta mine those carbon >crystals from sister >mars - now politic- >ally correct, un- >like the French. > >meanwhile the widows >and the children are >hungry and abused, a >-lone w/out recourse >to a loan, an escape >is very unlikely for >them to attempt to >boldly reach the >stars. mars >needs poets. > > >the poetopath, >-kpaul (at) >mallasch.com > >p.s. i don't like the aidperson. can't find the word i want at the moment, >tho ;) > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 17 16:41:18 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:41:18 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000e01c3dd42$a4200dd0$2a808051@MyPC> From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" > The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. > Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its > meaning and usages. > I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. Can I add to this? I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. Something to do with the context it which it appeared. Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Sat Jan 17 17:11:30 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:11:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <036301c3dd46$dd5350e0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. > Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its > meaning and usages. > I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. Aye. Verosophy from Philosophy, and Verosopath from Psychopath. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Jan 17 17:13:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:13:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <000e01c3dd42$a4200dd0$2a808051@MyPC> Message-ID: <036f01c3dd47$185cb050$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Can I add to this? > > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > > Robin Hamilton Others have had this problem. I guess it should be spelled, "verOsopath." --Bob G. From marcus Sat Jan 17 21:09:31 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:09:31 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE Message-ID: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > Robin Hamilton That's how I initially mis-read it, too, and it seemed as appropriate an appellation for Mr Grumman in that guise as in its guise as a hater of truth -- because Mr Grumman is obviously both. He hates verse, as witness his various attempts to avoid it in his ridiculous "mathemaku", which remind everyone who sees them of not-too-clever 7th graders making basic grammar jokes, and he hates truth, as witness his insistence on avoiding any serious discussion of his so-called "taxonomy", particularly his claims to being "objective". Objectionable is more like it. From antrobin Sat Jan 17 21:19:47 2004 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:19:47 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000001c3dd69$923c8450$29371c40@Emily> Now now Marcus--maybe it's not technically name-calling, but I think "hater of truth" is a slur, as is calling Mr. Grumman's chosen form of poetic expression "ridiculous." The comparison to not-too-clever 7th graders is, I think, an indirect form of namecalling. That said, I'm not too convinced by Bob's taxonomy--some of his "types" of poetry seem, well, okay, here I go--"ridiculous." However, your continual baiting and jabbing under the guise of "discussion" is pretty irritating too. It's abundantly clear that you're not interested in finding any sort of common ground or understanding between yourself and Mr. Grumman. You simply enjoy telling other people they're wrong. Wow! I can't believe I delurked to write THIS. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of marcus at designerglass.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 6:10 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > Robin Hamilton That's how I initially mis-read it, too, and it seemed as appropriate an appellation for Mr Grumman in that guise as in its guise as a hater of truth -- because Mr Grumman is obviously both. He hates verse, as witness his various attempts to avoid it in his ridiculous "mathemaku", which remind everyone who sees them of not-too-clever 7th graders making basic grammar jokes, and he hates truth, as witness his insistence on avoiding any serious discussion of his so-called "taxonomy", particularly his claims to being "objective". Objectionable is more like it. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Sat Jan 17 22:08:31 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:08:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > > Robin Hamilton > > That's how I initially mis-read it, too, and it seemed as appropriate an > appellation for Mr Grumman in that guise as in its guise as a hater of truth -- > because Mr Grumman is obviously both. He hates verse, as witness his various > attempts to avoid it in his ridiculous "mathemaku", which remind everyone who > sees them of not-too-clever 7th graders making basic grammar jokes, and he > hates truth, as witness his insistence on avoiding any serious discussion of > his so-called "taxonomy", particularly his claims to being "objective". > Objectionable is more like it. --Marcus Bales Whew, I'm reely realing from this onslaught. Probly won't be able to post again for a couple weeks. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 17 22:48:44 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:48:44 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> > Whew, I'm reely realing from this onslaught. Probly won't be able to post > again for a couple weeks. > > --Bob G. Ah, 'Cmon Bob, don't disappoint your fan-club. The day wouldn't be the same if I didn't wake-up to a few posts between you and Marcus. I read them religiously. It's like hitting your head with a hammer -- so nice when you stop. So after I've read them, I can get on with the day knowing it can only get better. Robin From bobgrumman Sun Jan 18 06:21:33 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 06:21:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> Message-ID: <011a01c3ddb5$3bada280$5eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > Whew, I'm reely realing from this onslaught. Probly won't be able to post > > again for a couple weeks. > > > > --Bob G. > > Ah, 'Cmon Bob, don't disappoint your fan-club. The day wouldn't be the same > if I didn't wake-up to a few posts between you and Marcus. Wel, I doe no,Rbn. I still feal very poorly, & I slid my throat yesterday after I poseded, to. So it will be hard. But maybe I can. I will tri my best. > I read them religiously. It's like hitting your head with a hammer -- so > nice when you stop. So after I've read them, I can get on with the day > knowing it can only get better. Now your making me unhapy again, Robn? That sownz like making fun. But Ig es if its about my actions insted of about ME, its OK. --Bb. From robin.hamilton2 Sun Jan 18 07:38:20 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:38:20 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> <011a01c3ddb5$3bada280$5eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003601c3ddbf$f4e694f0$201e8051@MyPC> > Now your making me unhapy again, Robn? That sownz like making fun. But Ig > es if its about my actions insted of about ME, its OK. > > --Bb. Hey, Bob, how could you *possibly* imagine I'd fun someone bleeding to deaf from a slid throat. What did you slid it with anyways -- Occam's razor? Chirs, Robin From marcus Sun Jan 18 11:54:00 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:54:00 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE Message-ID: <200401181639.i0IGdGE1012420@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Now now Marcus--maybe it's not technically name-calling, but I think > "hater of truth" is a slur,...<< My point exactly -- Mr Grumman has used it as a slur, as name-calling, consistently over these last weeks. Address your admonitions about it to him, if you please. My comments are to point out that by Mr Grumman's own definition of his own term he fits it well. It seems to me that his whole "verosopath" rut is a transparent bit of projection. > as is calling Mr. Grumman's chosen form of > poetic expression "ridiculous." The comparison to not-too-clever 7th > graders is, I think, an indirect form of namecalling.< I pointed out that the texts Mr Grumman offers are viewed by those who look at them as the kinds of basic grammar jokes made by not-too-clever 7th graders to make a vivid description of the texts themselves, not to characterize Mr Grumman himself. Calling someone "a verosopath" is surely namecalling; but comparing their work to the work of not-too-bright 7th graders is not -- after all, he can always try to do better work. It's the difference between the criticism of the person and the work -- and it's not wise to so identify with one's work that any criticism of that work is taken as criticism of the person. > That said, I'm not too convinced by Bob's taxonomy--some of his "types" > of poetry seem, well, okay, here I go--"ridiculous."<< Just so -- a criticism of the work, not the person. But Mr Grumman will undoubtedly feel that you have made a personal attack, here, because he has a long record of demonstrating that he cannot separate his self from his opinions, or his self from his work. > However, your continual baiting and jabbing under the guise of > "discussion" is pretty irritating too. It's abundantly clear that > you're not interested in finding any sort of common ground or > understanding between yourself and Mr. Grumman. You simply enjoy > telling other people they're wrong.<< I'm not interested in finding common ground with the flat earth people, either. So what? When there are two conflicting points of view it is not necessary that the most correct view must lie between them. Some views are, well, just ridiculous. It may be that everyone else reading this agrees with me, and that Mr Grumman's views are roundly considered as flat-earth as I consider them -- but no one else besides me has said so until you have just now offered that "some of his 'types' of poetry seem ... 'ridiculous.'" I've said a good deal about Mr Grumman's views and his claims for his taxonomy. It would be a good thing to hear others weigh in on whether Mr Grumman should provide a good deal more in the way of defining a scale by which to measure types of poetry, and a tool to use that would measure on that scale, in order to support his claim that his "taxonomy" is "objective", or whether his use of words and locutions such as "objective" and "taxonomy" and "four and only four" and the like are perfectly acceptable metaphors meant to be understood not at all as claims to any sort of scientific accuracy, or whether his use of those words and locutions are, in the view of his supporters, actually meant to make a scientific claim. Marcus From bobgrumman Sun Jan 18 13:40:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:40:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> <011a01c3ddb5$3bada280$5eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003601c3ddbf$f4e694f0$201e8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <006901c3ddf2$812251c0$2aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > Now your making me unhapy again, Robn? That sownz like making fun. But > Iges if its about my actions insted of about ME, its OK. > > > > --Bb. > > Hey, Bob, how could you *possibly* imagine I'd fun someone bleeding to deaf > from a slid throat. I wodnlt put it pass you Rbin, but you funned me be4 you know I slid my throte I mean throat. > What did you slid it with anyways -- Occam's razor? I ddint reely slid it, I just giv it a chop with my scrudriver. It ddnit even go al the way in which I'm glad because now I know it isnt' me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most importantest things I done the last 15 yeers, so I am "OKieDokie" with my life agan. I even made another mathemaku toady only its not finush. Its spelled very good, tho. So far!!!!! PS Mt Doo helps a lot!!!!!! yor frend B,ob > Chirs, > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From PaulandPeggy Sun Jan 18 14:08:48 2004 From: PaulandPeggy (Paul and Peggy Stouffer) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:08:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c3ddf6$814aeb90$6701a8c0@stouffer4> Please unsubscribe. Paul and Peggy Stouffer -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of ELEMENOPE Productions Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 3:12 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its meaning and usages. I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > Mike Geary (An elephant is painting a landscape on MoneyWorld TV in which the sky is blue and over the land. It seems we require a new word for an animal that can create art in spite of the common belief that such a feat is impossible. [PETAphiles will probably try to get in on that action somehow, either by unionizing the elephant artists {I have in my library a book which shows cats painting some interesting abstract expressionist canvases.} or having their handlers/owners arrested for slave labor.]) Richard Dillon >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Bob Grumman) > 2. Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (ELEMENOPE Productions) > 3. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Marcus Bales) > 4. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Bob Grumman) > 5. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Marcus Bales) > 6. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Michael Geary) > 7. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (JforJames at aol.com) > 8. mars needs war! (kpaul mallasch) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:51:15 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> >> > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > from mine. >> >> Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> who disagreed with him. >> >> Marcus >> >His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >absurdity." > >--Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:45:24 +0800 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: ELEMENOPE Productions >Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Bob, > >Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >denotes. As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >intellectually. >> >>>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > >who disagreed with him > > >Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American >Enterprise think tank. > >Richard Dillon > > >-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> > >> > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > > from mine. >> > >> > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> > who disagreed with him. >> > Marcus > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 12:51, Bob Grumman wrote: >> His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >> absurdity."<< > >And once again the very best you're capable of is name-calling, >apparently. How sad. > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:55:00 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >> denotes. > >A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy >it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >truth he hates. You can identify one by his methods, which I hope to make a >full list of sometime. Usually he pretends to be sincerely seeking the >truth when entering a discussion, so Bloom probably was too forthright for a >genuine verosopath in this instance. Bloom is a thick-headed reactionary >but probably not a verosopath. > >>As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >> insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >> intellectually. > >The latter--but with an awareness that it would be taken as an insult and >not minding that it would be. > >> >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> >who disagreed with him >> >> >> Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise >think tank. >> >> Richard Dillon > >I'd say (without knowing a great deal about either man) that they both >believe in and try to promote (unpopular) fractions of truths they seem to >think are full truths. I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. > >--Bob G. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:42:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 15:55, Bob Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >> destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the >> acceptance of some truth he hates.<< > >Which makes Grumman the pre-eminent verosopath since he is always >determined to destroy any discussion. Not to mention the pattern and >habit of his consistent name-calling, which seems to be what he >conceives to be reasoned discussion. > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Michael Geary" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:48:57 -0600 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > >Mike Geary > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: JforJames at aol.com >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:25 EST >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >> methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >> than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. >> >> >I only glanced through the article you posted, but my >reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit >readers and traditional critics against those who would employ >quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background >information from texts. >This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments >and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order >to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc. >It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic >critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism. >Finnegan > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:1= >2 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'm disappointed that Moretti d= >idn't extoll his
>methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather= >
>than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use.
>
>

>I only glanced through the article you posted, but my
>reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit
>readers and traditional critics against those who would employ
>quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background
>information from texts.
>This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments
>and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order
>to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc.
>It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic
>critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism.
>Finnegan
>
> >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:49:47 -0500 (EST) >From: kpaul mallasch >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] mars needs war! >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >"mars needs war!" >the leader of the UN- >free world said to >the world today. > >an aidperson >quickly corrected him, >saying mars needed women, >not war, with a weak, >unsure attempt at >a smile. > >nonsense the lead- >er said, the ladd- >er of jacobs land- >ed. > >editor's notes, >the morning news >and coffee and >the weird brain- >waves of a poet >translating our >time, our era, >the beginning of >the information >age or the tail >end of it - mars >needs regime change >the little green men >can work for free here >on good old planet earth. >gotta mine those carbon >crystals from sister >mars - now politic- >ally correct, un- >like the French. > >meanwhile the widows >and the children are >hungry and abused, a >-lone w/out recourse >to a loan, an escape >is very unlikely for >them to attempt to >boldly reach the >stars. mars >needs poets. > > >the poetopath, >-kpaul (at) >mallasch.com > >p.s. i don't like the aidperson. can't find the word i want at the moment, >tho ;) > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Sun Jan 18 14:40:10 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:40:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Salt=20Publishing=20Update=20January=202004=A0?= Message-ID: <1e.20a92796.2d3c3b1a@aol.com> Subj: Salt Publishing Update January 2004? Date: 1/16/2004 3:17:52 PM Eastern Standard Time From: cemery at saltpublishing.com To: info at saltpublishing.com Sent from the Internet (Details) SALT PUBLISHING UPDATE -- JANUARY 2004 ? ? * New online bookstore ? ? * Updated home page ? ? * New international events calendar ? ? * New international literary news page Please visit our enhanced Web site to find out more about our new developments. Search our book series for the latest Salt titles, or find out what readings or performances are taking place each month by Salt authors and contributors, or check out the latest literary news and views from around the world. Salt now provides a space for the literary community and its international audience to stay in touch with the latest writing and publications, ideas and projects. The Saline news pages are open access and anyone can join the bulletin board and post queries and comments, as well as news of new titles and major events. If you wish you can now buy Salt titles online at our new bookstore, and take advantage of special offers and deals each month. Like 20% off highlight titles right now! NEW ONLINE BOOKSTORE http://www.saltpublishing.com/shop/index.php (All major credit cards are accepted via PayPal or WorldPay.) UPDATED HOME PAGE http://www.saltpublishing.com/index.htm NEW INTERNATIONAL EVENTS CALENDAR http://www.saltpublishing.com/events/index.php (Online calendar of readings and tours) NEW INTERNATIONAL LITERARY NEWS http://www.saltpublishing.com/saline/index. (Open access bulletin board.) If you wish to be removed from this alerting service please reply to this email with the word "remove" in the subject header. Best wishes for 2004 Chris _____________________________________________________ Chris Hamilton-Emery Editor Salt Publishing PO Box 937, Great Wilbraham PDO Cambridge, CB1 5JX, UK tel: +44 (0)1223 880929 (direct and voicemail) mobile: 07799 054889 email: cemery at saltpublishing.com web: http://www.saltpublishing.com ____________________________________________________ ** Geraldine Monk "Selected Poems" available now! ISBN 1876857692 ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sun Jan 18 15:43:05 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:43:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gary Snyder, "How to Make Stew . . ." Message-ID: How to Make Stew in the Pinacate Desert Recipe for Locke & Drum A. J. Bayless market bent wire roller basket buy up parsnips, onion, carrot, rutabaga and potato, bell green pepper, & nine cuts of dark beef shank. They run there on their legs, that makes meat tasty. Seven at night in Tucson, get some bisquick for the dumplings. Have some bacon. Go to Hadley's in the kitchen right beside the frying steak--Diana on the phone--get a little plastic bag from Drum-- Fill it up with tarragon and chili; four bay leaves; black pepper corns and basil; powdered oregano, something free, maybe about two teaspoon worth of salt. Now down in Sonora, Pinacate country, build a fire of Ocotillo, broken twigs and bits of ironwood, in an open ring of lava: rake some coals aside (and if you're smart) to windward, keep the other half ablaze for heat and light. Set Drum's fourteen-inch dutch oven with three legs across the embers. Now put in the strips of bacon. In another pan have all the vegetables cleaned up and peeled and sliced. Cut the beef shank meat up small and set the bone aside. Throw in the beef shank meat, And stir it while it fries hot, lots of ash and sizzle--singe your brow-- Like Locke says almost burn it--then add water from the jeep can-- add the little bag of herbs--cook it all five minutes more--and then throw in the pan of all the rest. Cover it up with big hot lid all heavy, sit and wait, or drink bud- weiser beer. And also mix the dumpling mix aside, some water in some bisquick, finally drop that off the spoon into the stew. And let it cook ten minutes more and lift the black pot off the fire to set aside another good ten minutes, Dish it up and eat it with a spoon, sitting on a poncho in the dark. 13.XII.1964 --Gary Snyder fr. *The Back Country* [New York: New Directions, 1968] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From barry.spacks Sun Jan 18 16:16:35 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:16:35 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: An Essence of Buddhism Book In-Reply-To: <200401181701.i0IH12E1023495@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040118131001.00b7de48@incoming.verizon.net> My wife and I were involved with the 7 year editing process this book went through. I post the announcement below with the thought that some on the list might be interested in the gentle, selfless path it reveals (largely through Q&A with the Lama). Barry ********* Change of Heart: The Bodhisattva Peace Training of Chagdud Tulku Lama Shenpen Drolma (editor) Now Available from Padma Publishing It?s a beautiful book, and will be deeply appreciated by people from all walks of life, especially anyone who longs for compassionate tools for change in these times of conflict and divisiveness. From the back cover: "An ordinary being cannot even begin to fathom the infinite compassionate action of a bodhisattva, so only a bodhisattva can provide such guidance. Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, in my opinion, was a true bodhisattva who worked tirelessly to eliminate suffering in many different parts of the world. I rejoice that his teachings have been compiled into this book, and it is my aspiration that every single word of his will be put into practice."--Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche "Chagdud Rinpoche was an outstanding Buddhist master. In Change of Heart he hands us an extraordinary gift--a wise and gentle guide to the compassionatepath of the bodhisattvas. Confronting directly the dilemmas and uncertainty facing people today, Rinpoche shows how anyone at all can follow this training and use its methods to discover inner peace, reduce suffering, deal with violence and aggression, awaken the Good Heart, and so live in the world in such a way as to benefit all those around them." --Sogyal Rinpoche BOCOH-PP $16.95 Online Price $13.56 http://www.tibetantreasures.com/ From a December 2003 issue of PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY: CHANGE OF HEART: The Bodhisattva Peace Training of Chagdud Tulku Chagdud Tulku, a beloved Tibetan Rinpoche ("precious one") who died in 2002, offers wisdom on becoming a bodhisattva, or spiritual warrior of compassion. His student, Lama Shenpen Drolma, has edited this collection from a variety of talks and training seminars Tulku gave during the last 14 years of his life. All individuals, Tulku believed, can benefit from Bodhisattva Peace Training, his system of teaching others to understand human interconnectedness and alleviate suffering. Tulku explores ways to develop equanimity, transform an angry heart, awaken compassion, understand the root causes of suffering, contemplate impermanence and purify oneself from within. Most of the book adopts a question-and-answer format, with dialogue taken from transcripts of Tulku's real training seminars. This give-and-take is an inherent part of the book's success in illuminating difficult teachings and placing them into some kind of practical context. In the anger chapter, for example, the students challenge Tulku to unpack his statements that "anger is never useful" or that "there is no such thing as the right to be angry." One student, an advocate for battered women, believes that abused persons can and should become angry about their circumstances, and that anger can be a catalyst to change. Tulku answers that anger is a fleeting response that cannot be depended upon to change unjust situations, and in fact usually compounds them. There is some repetition of ideas throughout the book, but considering its origin in Tulku's unedited talks, it coheres very well as a seamless whole. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman Mon Jan 19 07:00:43 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 07:00:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c3de83$e17689b0$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Heather Nagamai's "The Agenda" - Rube Goldberg Objectivism & the furious stasis of local government An intro to Antennae Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: Mike Snider The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar "Write Like Soap," a poem on which one could stake a career in Rod Smith's Protective Immediacy (Four free books from Roof Books @ the EPC) An opportunity to feel ambivalent: Twentieth-Century American Poetics, edited by Dana Gioia, David Mason & Meg Schoerke (how new formalism neglects poets born in the 1930s) Density, density, density - What is it & what is its opposite? (reading Armantrout, Berssenbrugge, Godfrey & Corbett) Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout The gun as the verb in the syntax of cinema - shortchanging the reader/viewer in House of Sand & Fog Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry Dickinson - Niedecker - Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada's ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From marcus Mon Jan 19 08:45:42 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 08:45:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <006901c3ddf2$812251c0$2aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <400B9936.12743.23983E@localhost> On 18 Jan 2004 at 13:40, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most importantest > things I done the last 15 yeers ... This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a mud pie that it will be edible. The issue isn't how long or how hard you've worked on it -- it's whether your claims seem reasonable: and they don't. I'm sorry you've worked for 15 years on a claim that turns out on examination to have little merit, but so have the people who believe Shakespeare was written by someone else. Marcus From bobgrumman Mon Jan 19 09:35:12 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:35:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <400B9936.12743.23983E@localhost> Message-ID: <004001c3de99$73af80b0$56efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most importantest > > things I done the last 15 yeers ... > > This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a > mud pie that it will be edible. No, moron, it's the argument that if you tell a person that something he's devoted a major part of his life to is something that could be bettered by a clever seventh-grader, you are being rather less kind to him than you would if you have simply called him a moron. Of course, I recognize that you didn't say my mathemaku were something a not-too-clever seventh-grader could do, only that everyone who looked at them would say that. I also recognize that your opinion is ludicrous, as are all your opinions, which is no reflection on you, personally, nor intended to be insulting. And now I'll withdraw from this exchange. Wouldn't want any more lurkers to unsubscribe because of my name-calling. --Bob G. From marcus Mon Jan 19 09:59:44 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:59:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <004001c3de99$73af80b0$56efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <400BAA90.10883.676CAA@localhost> > > > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > > > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most > > > importantest things I done the last 15 yeers ... > > > > This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a > > mud pie that it will be edible. On 19 Jan 2004 at 9:35, Bob Grumman wrote: > No, moron, ...<< More name-calling. Is this really the best you can do, Bob? From mandolin Mon Jan 19 10:04:43 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:04:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog In-Reply-To: <000001c3de83$e17689b0$6401a8c0@Dell> References: <000001c3de83$e17689b0$6401a8c0@Dell> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Ron wrote: > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > > Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: > Mike Snider Not bizarre, Ron, just too flip, and I've apologized publicly for that. You spent the first two thirds of your otherwise very good January 2nd post ( http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 2004_01_01_ronsilliman_archive.html#107304337280793398 ) in a truly bizarre attempt at a typographical demonstration that the poetic line is inherent in the shapes of letters, and you've ignored subsequent discussions of the issue here ( http://www.ksilem.com/weblog/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=372 ) and here ( http://www.ksilem.com/weblog/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=374 ). If you'd care to actually talk about it, fine. Otherwise, pfft! Michael From marcus Mon Jan 19 10:06:26 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:06:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <004001c3de99$73af80b0$56efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <400BAC22.4954.6D91DD@localhost> > > > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > > > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most > > > importantest things I done the last 15 yeers ... > > > > This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a > > mud pie that it will be edible. On 19 Jan 2004 at 9:35, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... it's the argument that if you tell a person that something > he's devoted a major part of his life to is something that could be > bettered by a clever seventh-grader, you are being rather less kind to > him than you would if you have simply called him a moron.<< Well, isn't that exactly the same argument someone who's spent their lives researching evidence that Francis Bacon or someone else other than Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare could make? That merely by virtue of the mere effort and time they've invested they must be right? This is just another example of the specious kind of claim you habitually put forward. One imagines you are probably one of those who also claim Shakespeare was written by someone else, or that the moon landing never happened, or the like, to judge by the kind and quality of argument you bring to this. From Cadaly Mon Jan 19 12:12:21 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:12:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading January 22 in San Francisco Message-ID: <1e2.17ac5ce6.2d3d69f5@aol.com> Catherine Daly will be reading at the Geary St. Reading Series at Caf? Melroy, 835 Geary Street, SF, Thursday, January 22, at 7 pm with Denise Newman and Laynie Browne. Thanks, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Jan 19 16:42:15 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:42:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for papers - short story Message-ID: <004401c3ded5$1ae5e460$13607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> >From: Flys Junquera Carmen [mailto:carmen.flys at uah.es] >Sent: maandag 19 januari 2004 14:14 8th International Conference on the Short Story in English October 2831, 2004 Universidad de Alcal? Alcal? de Henares, Madrid, Spain CALL FOR PAPERS The organization of the Eighth International Conference on the Short Story in English issues a call for papers to be presented at the conference, to be held at the Universidad de Alcal?, Alcala de Henares, Spain from October 28-31, 2004. The conference is organized by the Institute for North American Studies. The aim of this conference is to bring together writers and scholars, theory and practice, on the short story. Proposals should be 300-500 words and submitted by Feb. 15, 2004. Proposals should be written on the form downloaded from the website and sent by email to both co-directors of the conference. E-mails are: short.story at uah.es (Carmen Flys) and MauriceL at mail.uca.edu (Maurice Lee). Fax.Numbers are: Flys: (34)91-885-5248, and Lee: (1) 501-450-5185 Guest Writers expected: Richard Ford, Sandra Cisneros, Amy Tan, Cristina Garcia, Ali Smith, Gish Jen, Grace Paley, Bharati Mukerjee, Clark Blaise, Anne Proulx, Ernest Gaines, Robert Olen Butler, Francine Prose, Jayne Anne Phillips, Michael Chabon, Gayle Elliott, Katie Singer, Vijay Lakshmi, Claire Larriere, Junot Diaz, Z.Z. Packer, Nicole Brossard, Minoli Salgado, Cyril Dabydeen, and Wilson Harris. Suggested Topics are (but are not limited to) Crossing generic boundaries in the short story Crossing any other type of boundaries in the short story Genre slippage Short story cycle Closure in short story Rhetoric in short story Teaching of the short story Short story and popular culture Short story and cultural linkages Short shorts Magical Realism Short fiction theory Short story and film Short story and music Hypertext short stories Trickster strategies in short story Race, class and gender in short story Short story as autobiographies Code-switching in short story Metafiction and short story Translating the short story Writing the short story Short stories and the environmental crisis Realism, Romanticism, Naturalism and the short story Post-modern, Post-colonial short story The role of the short story in the creation of literature The editing and anthologizing of short stories The teaching of short stories: new approaches The problem with publication and publishers Short story history outside the United States Both individual papers and organized panels are welcome. Papers should be limited to 15 minutes (9 double-spaced pages maximum) Selected papers will be published For more information check our website or write NOTE: Notification of acceptance of papers will be made by mid April. Definite acceptance hinges on registration. Participants registering after June 1 are not guaranteed a slot on a panel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Mon Jan 19 17:30:28 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:30:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Leslie Scalapino, 5 sections from "hmmm" Message-ID: <002001c3dedb$d6f52520$38e8c043@computer> Considering certain emotions such as falling asleep, I said, (especially when one is standing on one?s feet), as being similar to fear, or anger, or fainting. I do. I feel sleep in me is induced by blood forced into veins of my brain. I can?t focus. My tongue is numb and so large it is like the long tongue of a calf or the tongue of a goat or of a sheep. What?s more, I bleat. Yes. In private, in bed, at night, with my head turned sideways on the pillow. No wonder I say that I love to sleep. Dog Suppose I was thinking something, say, not knowing I was thinking it, one day when I saw this dog before a house on the sidewalk, he not really sidling toward me, but more like loping sideways? Well, his tongue was lolling. And he was whining the way human heads loll forward in sleep and whinny. Something so hesitant and low More so, because it was a nasal sound, a neigh, the way we neigh, not thinking, when we are nervously mimicking a horse. So I mimicked him, the dog, right back. Really I was being flippant by pretending to gallop; and all the while not moving, and letting my tongue slip forward between my lips, really laughing. I know I am sick (someone will say to you) when all I can eat is something sweet. Also I sweat. Foods like fruits, eggs, or meat, are things I can?t eat. Furthermore, my disease is like rabies. I can?t swallow. I am obsequious, and on the other hand I fawn so easily on others, i.e. a man or a dog, that dogs will be led by me silently; for instance by my casting them a blank although a soft look. For the dog and I, I?ll say this at least ( here the person speaking to you purses his lips ), do yearn for each other . Isn?t it interesting how a woman like me pursues in man after man the same face or even the same foot or hand. Like the man who loved a woman for her sheared hair. Sure. Loved her, he said, because she was like a hyena. Or, like a mongrel or like a short-haired dog. i.e. When in bed, the man said, while calling her pet names by whistling, he liked to nip her with his lips. And once, during intercourse, when he told her what he would like most from her, the man said facetiously: I want you to say the word yip, as in the yelp of a young dog. Raising the hand in a certain way to the head Weeks later, one day when I did see the man whom I kept thinking I had been seeing everywhere (think of me staring at men to see if they had the same walk and the same hair as he had), I noticed that the nod that he directed to me (as he passed me on the sidewalk with a woman with him) was like the bob of a head buoyed up, but swept along so that he seemed to be swooning. Literally. So I looked back, after walking a block or so, to see his back. And, remembering the provokingly sullen look on the face of the woman he was with (as if she had him on a leash), I wanted to put my fingers between my lips; so that, by pretending to be sullen and by pulling my lip down into a grimace, I would actually be saluting him (in the sense of someone making a gesture such as raising the hand in a certain way to the head ) . --Leslie Scalapino fr. ?hmmm? in Considering how exaggerated music is [San Francisco: North Point Press, 1982 Hal Halvard Johnson halvard @earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Jan 20 13:33:43 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:33:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner Message-ID: <004701c3df83$eed0b170$9a737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> I am proud to announce the last contributions to the Poets' Corner, with the following Poets: PHILIP NIKOLAYEV http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=74 ALMA LARSEN http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=75 DOUGLAS CLARK http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=78 JOSE' LEZAMA LIMA introduced and translated by MARK WEISS http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=77 New poems are featured by REBECCA SEIFERLE Operation Avalanche http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=362 BARRY ALPERT Blue & Green Aki K(aurismaki) http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=360 Film, Aki Kaurismaki http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=361 Talk, Luis Bunuel http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=380 The Sweetest Sound of Alan Berliner http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=381 Of Abigail Child http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=382 Film, Jonas Mekas http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=383 HALVARD JOHNSON Paris in Old Photographs http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=364 AL ARONOWITZ With an addition of Schmaikus: 8 -9 -10 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=171 RAM MEHTA An elegy on a mattress maker http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=384 From Cadaly Wed Jan 21 12:48:05 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:48:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] DWP Message-ID: DWP Free Journal distributor Damien Ober sustained a leg injury and is laid up. So far, we've amazingly been able to make free copies of the journal thanks to him, keeping the journal free for our readers. However, because of Damien's injury, our new issue will have to depend on the benevolence of friends. If you can photocopy the journal and leave copies at bookstores, coffee shops, newsstands and bars in your area, we would be grateful. The DWP distributes everywhere there are readers---public buses, health clubs, jury deliberation rooms. If you've got access to a photocopy machine, or know someone who does, and would like to distribute the journal in your area, give us an address and we'll ship a master copy right away. Forward this message to friends, office employees, college faculty and trusted state officials. The DWP is committed to providing free and open forums for artists, writers and performers. With the intent of getting quality literature into the hands of everyone, the DWP Free Journal has distributed through volunteers and members across the U.S. If you'd like to become a member, sign on to our mailing list at www.dissociatedwritersproject.com Brad Senning DWP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Wed Jan 21 20:22:16 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:22:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action Message-ID: <49.38aec265.2d407fc8@aol.com> Date: 1/20/2004 8:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time February 12 is the first anniversary of the White House Symposium on Poetry that prompted us to form Poets Against the War. It is therefore altogether fitting that we should celebrate that date with poetry readings across the United States (and indeed around the world) once again. We are asking poets everywhere to join with us to note that date and to include poems by Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes in public readings and discussions. These were the poets the White House attempted to co-opt for their symposium, which we successfully brought to a close. We think it entirely appropriate that wherever possible these readings be held in our libraries to acknowledge the thousands upon thousands of loyal librarians who have refused to comply with the unAmerican aspects of the Patriot Act that would turn librarians into de facto agents of Homeland Security and infringe upon every citizen's right to read in private. Please contact your local public library, or college or university library, and initiate an afternoon or evening of poetry and political straight talk to counter the lies, deceptions, and unAmerican activities of this administration. We ask each of you to consider what Whitman, Dickinson or Hughes might have said in response to the Patriot Act, to the proposed Patriot Act II, and to this administration's cynical efforts to spread fear and intimidation and to silence its detractors. We look forward to hearing from you, and we hope you will join us in designing an effective 2004 campaign to regain our Constitutional rights and re-establish a democratic government in these United States. -- Sam Hamill and the Board of Poets Against the War -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To change the email address we use to send you news or announcements about PAW, or to give us any additional info, please go to http://poetsagainstthewar.org/authoredit.asp. To unsubscribe: If you'd rather not receive any more email from us, please go to http://poetsagainstthewar.org/changesubscription.asp. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope Thu Jan 22 01:51:18 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:51:18 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action In-Reply-To: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------. I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions Bush Country, USA, America -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon doesn't need personally to defeat Sam Hamill, Anne Waldman and every other dink aluminum-foiled-pinhead-capped NOT-eternal mouth-foaming Deaniac pro-Castroite ersatz-humanitarian RadLib anti-American poetaster. The American vote this Autumn will isolate each of them into their cabal even further. If the Hamill/Waldman Fifth Columnist Clintonistas pro-IslamoTerrorist NewTotalitarians had continued to steal the country Sadamn's BaathHouse NaziReduxing Thrill Killers would be mixing BioBombs in Iraq today. When Hamill attempted to seize microphones in the White House to slander the President, the butler threw his ranting butt down the stairs. His version of this sordid tale Hamill would have you believe is self-serving, self-deluded duplicity. But that's been the RadLib strategy ever since their traitorous ideology was invented by Grasci, perfected in Frankfurt and shipped into elite academia to Harvard and Berkeley by the insidious hand of Herbert Marcuse and Senator Clitnon's teacher Commie-agitator ersatz-professor Saul Alinsky, then secreted into the White House by this traitorous insidious Enron-funding pro-third-term abortion lechery loving gang. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schroesd Thu Jan 22 15:29:05 2004 From: schroesd (Steven Schroeder) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:29:05 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <005001c3e126$61ca98a0$760e4044@STEVECOMPUTER> [New-Poetry] call to actionCongratulations on a first-rate piece of parody. ----- Original Message ----- From: ELEMENOPE Productions To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:51 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------. I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions Bush Country, USA, America -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon doesn't need personally to defeat Sam Hamill, Anne Waldman and every other dink aluminum-foiled-pinhead-capped NOT-eternal mouth-foaming Deaniac pro-Castroite ersatz-humanitarian RadLib anti-American poetaster. The American vote this Autumn will isolate each of them into their cabal even further. If the Hamill/Waldman Fifth Columnist Clintonistas pro-IslamoTerrorist NewTotalitarians had continued to steal the country Sadamn's BaathHouse NaziReduxing Thrill Killers would be mixing BioBombs in Iraq today. When Hamill attempted to seize microphones in the White House to slander the President, the butler threw his ranting butt down the stairs. His version of this sordid tale Hamill would have you believe is self-serving, self-deluded duplicity. But that's been the RadLib strategy ever since their traitorous ideology was invented by Grasci, perfected in Frankfurt and shipped into elite academia to Harvard and Berkeley by the insidious hand of Herbert Marcuse and Senator Clitnon's teacher Commie-agitator ersatz-professor Saul Alinsky, then secreted into the White House by this traitorous insidious Enron-funding pro-third-term abortion lechery loving gang. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 Thu Jan 22 15:47:24 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:47:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry In-Reply-To: <005001c3e126$61ca98a0$760e4044@STEVECOMPUTER> Message-ID: <20040122204724.49431.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> I have a question for all you teaching poets out there in NewPoetry land. What are your favorite poems to teach and why? This semester in American lit, my class actually enjoyed Whitman's "Out of the Cradle," a poem that the last am lit section I taught hated. Perhaps I'm a better teacher this time around, but I digress. As for me, I enjoy teaching: Eliot, "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock" Whitman, "Out of the Cradle" Bishop, "In the Waiting Room," "Sestina" Jeffers, "The Purse-Seine" Hayden, "Those Winter Sundays" These are off the top of my head, but I was wondering if any of you had some favorites that you liked to teach. I love teaching the Eliot poem because--oddly enough maybe--lots of my students tend to identify with it. My students also usually love Elizabeth Bishop, and when I teach them about the sestina form, we usually have a discussion of the importance of those six words at the ends of each line. I suppose that I should say that I don't want to get into a semantic argument about what "enjoy" means. I just wonder what you like to present to students and why. Thanks, Jeff Newberry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From MillB Thu Jan 22 15:58:26 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:58:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Message-ID: Jeff, I answered you directly (not to the group), sending you my bulky, unformatted repository of the poems I use in lessons. Let me know if you did not receive it. Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 22 17:37:10 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:37:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Cid Corman, "Anyone can play the poet--" Message-ID: Anyone can play the poet-- get language to sit up and beg-- carry the news or lie down--all feet at one's foot--making it seem the easiest thing in the world-- as in a sense--if you can speak-- it is. But poetry occurs in unanticipated ways-- bites and sniffs and keeps an eye on spiritual territory. Lets you know of what encroachments bodies incur when they are free of gross impediments. Enough that when the poet himself has done his thing and left his breath to yours--you're not intended to sound his praises--weep--or bestow on him supervacuous honors. --Cid Corman fr. And the Word [Minneapolis: Coffee House Press, 1982] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2084 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hruggier Fri Jan 23 10:53:38 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:53:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <010201c3e1c9$11b07940$9d0c9942@Helen> [New-Poetry] call to actionWow. Great retro use of the word "Commie" haven't heard that in a long time - ----- Original Message ----- From: ELEMENOPE Productions To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------. I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions Bush Country, USA, America -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon doesn't need personally to defeat Sam Hamill, Anne Waldman and every other dink aluminum-foiled-pinhead-capped NOT-eternal mouth-foaming Deaniac pro-Castroite ersatz-humanitarian RadLib anti-American poetaster. The American vote this Autumn will isolate each of them into their cabal even further. If the Hamill/Waldman Fifth Columnist Clintonistas pro-IslamoTerrorist NewTotalitarians had continued to steal the country Sadamn's BaathHouse NaziReduxing Thrill Killers would be mixing BioBombs in Iraq today. When Hamill attempted to seize microphones in the White House to slander the President, the butler threw his ranting butt down the stairs. His version of this sordid tale Hamill would have you believe is self-serving, self-deluded duplicity. But that's been the RadLib strategy ever since their traitorous ideology was invented by Grasci, perfected in Frankfurt and shipped into elite academia to Harvard and Berkeley by the insidious hand of Herbert Marcuse and Senator Clitnon's teacher Commie-agitator ersatz-professor Saul Alinsky, then secreted into the White House by this traitorous insidious Enron-funding pro-third-term abortion lechery loving gang. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Fri Jan 23 17:32:50 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:32:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <010201c3e1c9$11b07940$9d0c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <010101c3e200$d5e55600$18d88051@MyPC> [New-Poetry] call to actionWow. Great retro use of the word "Commie" haven't heard that in a long time - Well, if you want really retro, howzabout "premature anti-fascist"? That possibly predates even Richard's time. Robin (I doubt if Da Dillon would approve of this -- the term "premature anti-fascist" is Deeply Stalanist, and not something Elemenope would admire. C3PO ) {Actually, and nothihg to do with anything, there's an interesting lock on the term "Commie" and Dasheil Hammett's Continenal Op short stories, Hammett being that stange case of an ex-Pink who was also a Raving Leftie who got shafted by McCarthy. Bloody odd that, if you think on it. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 24 11:49:10 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:49:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Copyright/ Copy Left? Message-ID: I'm not exactly sure where I stand on copyright issues, but there's an article in tomorrow's NYT Magazine that's very interesting-- http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/magazine/25COPYRIGHT.html Hal "Let's get on with our non-paying work as always" --Bernadette Mayer Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames Sat Jan 24 13:33:57 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:33:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pre-Conference Registration for AWP 2004 Ending Soon! Message-ID: Subj: Pre-Conference Registration for AWP 2004 Ending Soon! Date: 1/24/2004 12:12:12 PM Eastern Standard Time From: awp at gmu.edu Dear Friend, Just a reminder to let you know that if you haven't yet registered for AWP's 2004 Conference, you must do so before February 20, 2004, to take advantage of lower pre-conference registration rates. No pre-conference registrations will be accepted after February 20. Registrations paid by credit card may be faxed to (703) 993-4302. You may also visit our secure online registration site: . To register by telephone please call (703) 993-4317. If you choose to register by mail, your registration must be postmarked February 20, 2003, in order to receive the early-bird rates. Please send your completed registration form and payment to: AWP Conference Services Mail Stop 1E3 George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 Conference attendees who have not registered by February 20, 2004, must register at the conference. On-site registration booths will be open beginning at 2:00PM on Wednesday, March 24, 2004, and will be located on the Fourth Floor of the Palmer House Hilton Hotel. If you have any questions or concerns please let us know. If you have already registered -- Thank you. We look forward to seeing you in Chicago! Best, ______________________________ Matt Scanlon AWP Director of Conferences MS 1E3 George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 2004 AWP Conference & Bookfair in Chicago http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2004awpconf.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 14:48:41 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:48:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines Message-ID: <14b.2972b96d.2d442619@aol.com> Index of First Lines (to poems never finished) At a table abandoned of all diners The third way out of town was death One might say the wind was diffident Stars flew from the grinding wheel Only ghosts find solace in silence When did it ever matter less than this They passed in the hallway once Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin One eyebrow was a scar, the other When the garden is all wither and seed I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Minutes were the cost A lot of hoopla going on in the copula She was trying to get high on nail polish The shoes in the closet began to Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Ask him again, ask him until he answers A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth A trick of light, mere glint then waver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 24 14:57:51 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:57:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines( rsv) In-Reply-To: <14b.2972b96d.2d442619@aol.com> Message-ID: At a table out of town was death, abandoned by all diners. The diffident one might say the wind was stars flying from the grinding wheel. Only ghosts matter less than this. They find solace in silence, passing in the hallway, once thick knots of smoke untie the sky, using only a spoon and bent safety pin. One eyebrow's all withered and seedy, the other inside a plastic bag, crying like a baby, rain fainting, nearly falling, costly minutes copulating amid all the hoopla. Shoes high on nail polish sequester themselves in the closet, beginning to wonder why the mirror hadn't appeared. Poisonous answers snake out between the lips and teeth of the matted envelope glinting in the tricky, palatial, imperial light. Hal Index of First Lines (to poems never finished) At a table abandoned of all diners The third way out of town was death One might say the wind was diffident Stars flew from the grinding wheel Only ghosts find solace in silence When did it ever matter less than this They passed in the hallway once Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin One eyebrow was a scar, the other When the garden is all wither and seed I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Minutes were the cost A lot of hoopla going on in the copula She was trying to get high on nail polish The shoes in the closet began to Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Ask him again, ask him until he answers A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth A trick of light, mere glint then waver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 15:21:16 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:21:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines( rsv) Message-ID: <46.45684a03.2d442dbc@aol.com> In a message dated 1/24/2004 3:14:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > At a table out of town was death, > abandoned by all diners. The diffident > one might say the wind was stars flying > from the grinding wheel. > > Only ghosts matter less than this. They > find solace in silence, passing in the hallway, > once thick knots of smoke untie the sky, > using only a spoon and bent safety pin. > > One eyebrow's all withered and seedy, > the other inside a plastic bag, crying > like a baby, rain fainting, nearly falling, > costly minutes copulating amid all the hoopla. > > Shoes high on nail polish sequester > themselves in the closet, beginning > to wonder why the mirror hadn't appeared. > Poisonous answers snake out between > > the lips and teeth of the matted envelope > glinting in the tricky, palatial, imperial light. > > Hal, well done (putting the jigsaw together) and so quickly. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 24 15:38:52 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:38:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Besmilr Brigham, 3 sections fr. *Agony Dance . . .* Message-ID: xii angels of the stone the men watch the men do not dance their hands move toward the women are they silent winders of the keys the carvers who with harsh durable stroke a delicacy the fingers touching/cut clear the brief markings that make form to the angels' spread loved and protective wings do their quiet breaths breathe a movement that moves in eyes of the fierce rock where she stands quick as a leaf that has fallen xiii strange poets who die in their beds under the covers their thin drained bodies watching eyes motionless as cattle standing their brittle pierced flesh in cold bucking the subways minds end--at the end of the line they crawl on drunken stairs up (up fall the steps, can be any time hypo needles the brain rages the woods of stars their feet walk in the old man hitting his son's knowing face and lie outside a door fear the living can't open the living shut in a room against all the tight boats lost in the wind los barcos flesh does not go down like an evening star it runs on wild train wheels over an air-filled trestle, logs breaking together raft on (thrown and caught held-still in consequence waves drowned in guilt the little potients can ease over a mind a hand how can we break from our own tightness erase the deliberation that separates you who went will-wise down your own ways of fulfillment the surface is calm, look at the suspended wing the little close work a man without thought made xiv when a man dies the women they do not cross themselves (beyond prayer they have come beyond god's point in the dense tree woods empty glasses tingling with snow melt water does not turn to wine they turn their faces to the earth the beauty of touched earth they sit loving angels all flesh) content with the never placid earth --Besmilr Brigham fr. *Agony Dances: death of the (Dancing Dolls* [Portland: Prensa de Lagar, 1969] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From joncpoetics Sat Jan 24 16:02:18 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:02:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines: a corollary Message-ID: Eight punch lines in search of a joke i And the Pope said I'm with the Jewish guy. ii Styrofoam? cried the salesman I thought it was popcorn! iii Oh, it's not for me he told the bartender it's for my hippopotamus. iv There's just one thing I still don't understand: how come whenever I press this button you stick out your tongue? v But the King's ears were upside down. vi I'll bet you've never seen a gorilla in a tutu either! vii Me, too said the Martian. viii And the moral of the story is never let anyone give you more bull than you can shake a stick at. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 24 16:02:48 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:02:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines References: <14b.2972b96d.2d442619@aol.com> Message-ID: <008501c3e2bd$6c218be0$341c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> At a table abandoned of all diners Sorrow stood to sip some wine The third way out of town was death I met Her in her strangling bright line One might say the wind was diffident Or devoid of any common notion Stars flew from the grinding wheel The universe turned upside down Only ghosts find solace in silence Ohming my way through to scatter them far When did it ever matter less than this Never again, she thought, it will change They passed in the hallway once It was narrow, damp, frightening Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Difficult to breathe to act to speak Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin To open doors previously locked One eyebrow was a scar, the other Scar marked them on their wrists When the garden is all wither and seed That is where they came to light I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag But it was me, them A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Still they were, and tried out a smile Minutes were the cost To bring back life A lot of hoopla going on in the copula Rotating nerves back down to earth She was trying to get high on nail polish Televised visions smashed it all The shoes in the closet began to Clatter mutter stammer Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance Her words, where was I? To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Forget about Eurydice, turn and see Ask him again, ask him until he answers If you have to go back, that you should know A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat That is what you will receive How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth If you haven?t known until now, I already do A trick of light, mere glint then waver Only a little left, just it. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 8:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines Index of First Lines (to poems never finished) At a table abandoned of all diners The third way out of town was death One might say the wind was diffident Stars flew from the grinding wheel Only ghosts find solace in silence When did it ever matter less than this They passed in the hallway once Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin One eyebrow was a scar, the other When the garden is all wither and seed I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Minutes were the cost A lot of hoopla going on in the copula She was trying to get high on nail polish The shoes in the closet began to Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Ask him again, ask him until he answers A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth A trick of light, mere glint then waver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 20:10:20 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:10:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines: a corollary Message-ID: <86.3ca9c75.2d44717c@aol.com> Last poem in Charles Simic's _Dismantling The Silence_... errata Where it says snow read teeth-marks of a virgin Where it says knife read you passed through my bones like a police-whistle Where it says table read horse Where it says horse read my migrant's bundle Apples are to remain apples Each time a hat appears think of Isaac Newton reading the Old Testament Remove all periods They are scars made by words I couldn't bring myself to say Put a finger over each sunrise it will blind you otherwise That damn ant is still stirring Will there be time left to list all errors to replace all hands guns owls plates all cigars ponds woods and reach that beer-bottle my greatest mistake the word I allowed to be written when I should have shouted her name -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 20:20:52 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:20:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines Message-ID: <10.3ae886ae.2d4473f4@aol.com> In a message dated 1/24/2004 4:03:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: At a table abandoned of all diners Sorrow stood to sip some wine The third way out of town was death I met Her in her strangling bright line One might say the wind was diffident Or devoid of any common notion Stars flew from the grinding wheel The universe turned upside down Only ghosts find solace in silence Ohming my way through to scatter them far When did it ever matter less than this Never again, she thought, it will change They passed in the hallway once It was narrow, damp, frightening Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Difficult to breathe to act to speak Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin To open doors previously locked One eyebrow was a scar, the other Scar marked them on their wrists When the garden is all wither and seed That is where they came to light I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag But it was me, them A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Still they were, and tried out a smile Minutes were the cost To bring back life A lot of hoopla going on in the copula Rotating nerves back down to earth She was trying to get high on nail polish Televised visions smashed it all The shoes in the closet began to Clatter mutter stammer Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance Her words, where was I? To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Forget about Eurydice, turn and see Ask him again, ask him until he answers If you have to go back, that you should know A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat That is what you will receive How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth If you haven?t known until now, I already do A trick of light, mere glint then waver Only a little left, just it. Anny -- Anny, I like where you're going with these failed first lines. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sun Jan 25 12:50:51 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 11:50:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fruit from the thirst-tree Message-ID: My latest catch at the public library is a book I will probably never finish, certainly not in one loan period--the new *Poetry of Pablo Neruda*, edited by Ilan Stavans (Farrar, Straus & Giroux). This is doubtless the fattest selected edition I've ever seen, 996 pages long. The editor notes that Neruda's entire poetic output runs to 3799 pages; I'm wondering if there are any other poets of note who can match that level of production? In any case, Neruda fans will want to take a long look at this doorstop, the most complete edition by far that has ever appeared in English, covering Neruda's entire career and employing multiple translators, including W. S. Merwin, Alastair Reid, Donald Walsh, Margaret Sayers Peden, William O'Daly, and many others. One interesting feature of the book: there are a number of poems provided in more than one translation, for comparison's sake. Here's one of Bly's odes, from the final section of the book ("Homage") featuring a number of contemporary poets' versions of various poems-- Ode to the Watermelon The tree of intense summer, hard, is all blue sky, yellow sun, fatigue in drops, a sword above the highways, a scorched shoe in the cities: the brightness and the world weigh us down, hit us in the eyes with clouds of dust, with sudden golden blows, they torture our feet with tiny thorns, with hot stones, and the mouth suffers more than all the toes: the throat becomes thirsty, the teeth, the lips, the tongue: we want to drink waterfalls, the dark blue night, the South Pole, and then the coolest of all the planets crosses the sky, the round, magnificent, star-filled watermelon. It's a fruit from the thirst-tree. It's the green whale of the summer. The dry universe all at once given dark stars by this firmament of coolness lets the swelling fruit come down: its hemispheres open showing a flag green, white, red, that dissolves into wild rivers, sugar, delight! Jewel box of water, phlegmatic queen of the fruitshops, warehouse of profundity, moon on earth! You are pure, rubies fall apart in your abundance, and we want to bite into you, to bury our face in you, and our hair, and the soul! When we're thirsty we glimpse you like a mine or a mountain of fantastic food, but among our longings and our teeth you change simply into cool light that slips in turn into spring water that touched us once singing. And that is why you don't weigh us down in the siesta hour that's like an oven, you don't weigh us down, you just go by and your heart, some cold ember, turned itself into a single drop of water. -- Pablo Neruda, trans. Robert Bly ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From ron.silliman Mon Jan 26 07:30:30 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:30:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c3e408$32f7fc90$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Coming to terms with elders: Ezra Pound's fascist cantos & Michael Rothenberg channeling Philip Whalen Ron Silliman forthcoming events Poetry & community - Tucson's Lisa Cooper Kaia Sand - Choosing between rough edges & smooth ones Jules Boykoff - A political poetry of linked verse Heather Nagamai's "The Agenda" - Rube Goldberg Objectivism & the furious stasis of local government An intro to Antennae Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: Mike Snider The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar "Write Like Soap," a poem on which one could stake a career in Rod Smith's Protective Immediacy (Four free books from Roof Books @ the EPC) An opportunity to feel ambivalent: Twentieth-Century American Poetics, edited by Dana Gioia, David Mason & Meg Schoerke (how new formalism neglects poets born in the 1930s) Density, density, density - What is it & what is its opposite? (reading Armantrout, Berssenbrugge, Godfrey & Corbett) Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From paul.lake Mon Jan 26 12:50:58 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:50:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fruit from the thirst-tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/25/04 11:50 AM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: > My latest catch at the public library is a book I will probably never > finish, certainly not in one loan period--the new *Poetry of Pablo Neruda*, > edited by Ilan Stavans (Farrar, Straus & Giroux). This is doubtless the > fattest selected edition I've ever seen, 996 pages long. The editor notes > that Neruda's entire poetic output runs to 3799 pages; I'm wondering if > there are any other poets of note who can match that level of production? How about Ashbery? --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From GrahamD Tue Jan 27 11:41:39 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:41:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Fruit from the thirst-tree Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1B6@ariel.ripon.edu> >The editor notes > that Neruda's entire poetic output runs to 3799 pages; I'm wondering if > there are any other poets of note who can match that level of production? >How about Ashbery? --- Ah, Ashbery. You may have a point, but I'm not about to start counting pages, I confess. Possible that it just *seems* that many of his individual poems run longer than 3799 pages. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From FINDINGTHEWORD Thu Jan 29 11:48:34 2004 From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:48:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] new interview with poet Gil Ott Message-ID: <149.212802b5.2d4a9362@aol.com> new interview with poet Gil Ott http://banjopoets.blogspot.com/ From paul.lake Thu Jan 29 13:46:38 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:46:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has proposed to substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. One of Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really are the unacknowledged legislators of the world. Paul Lake January 29, 2004 Bush Seeks $18M Budget Increase for Arts By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush is proposing a big funding boost to the National Endowment for the Arts, an agency that once was a favorite target of Republicans. The money would go for a new program to give Americans an up-close look at their arts heritage. The $18 million increase, a 15 percent hike in the NEA's funding, would be the largest in years. Last year, Congress increased the agency's funding to $122.5 million, up from $115.7 million but still well below what the agency received 25 years ago. Most of the increase Bush is proposing in his upcoming federal budget would be used for a new initiative called ``American Masterpieces: Three Centuries of Artistic Genius.'' The programs will take works of American art on tour to large and small communities in all 50 states, said Douglas Sonntag, director of the NEA's Office of National Initiatives. Sonntag said the program also will create educational packages of videos and study guides tailored for schoolchildren, bringing jazz, Shakespeare, dance and other art forms to classrooms nationwide. While federal spending on the arts has edged up slightly, cash-strapped state governments have slashed funding for theaters, museums and performance groups by nearly one quarter. The NEA's budget was slashed when Republicans gained control of Congress in 1995. Conservatives were upset by some of the projects funded by the NEA, such as works by controversial artists like Robert Mapplethorpe, contending they were a threat to the nation's moral standards. The arts agency is one of the few domestic programs in line for a major spending increase under the budget plan Bush will unveil Tuesday. He has proposed holding spending for non-defense, non-domestic security programs to an increase of about 0.5 percent. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bobgrumman Thu Jan 29 17:25:10 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:25:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase References: Message-ID: <017b01c3e6b6$c34f8230$7aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has proposed to > substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. One of > Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really are the > unacknowledged legislators of the world. > > Paul Lake As a clever Philistine, I'm sure Bush knows that the best way to destroy the arts is not simply to ignore them but to subsidize their chief competitors. --Bob G. From JforJames Thu Jan 29 21:02:41 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:02:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia Message-ID: <2d.391c70dd.2d4b1541@aol.com> In a message dated 1/27/2004 11:42:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > >How about Ashbery? > > --- > Ah, Ashbery. You may have a point, but I'm not about to start counting > pages, I confess. Possible that it just *seems* that many of his individual > poems run longer than 3799 pages. . . . > Did anyone hear the piece on NPR this morning? I think the author said 80% of poets are afflicted with a form of hypergaphia... Alice Flarehty's Midnight Disease http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/titledetail.cfm?titleNumber=688190 "One often hears of writers that rise and swell with their subject, though it may seem but an ordinary one. How, then, with me, writing of this Leviathan? Unconsciously my chirography expands into placard capitals. Give me a condor's quill! Give me Vesuvius' crater for an inkstand! Friends, hold my arms!" --Herman Melville -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 Thu Jan 29 21:13:14 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:13:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia Message-ID: <5f.4467e637.2d4b17ba@aol.com> here's flarehty's essay from the *chronicle of higher ed* i may have posted this to new-poetry back in late november. it's rather long, so apologies for cramming your email-box. here goes: thom tammaro moorhead, mn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Writing Like Crazy: a Word on the Brain By ALICE WEAVER FLAHERTY Writing is one of the supreme human achievements. No, why should I be reasonable? Writing is the supreme achievement. It is by turns exhilarating and arduous, and trying to write obsesses and distresses students, professional writers, and diarists alike. Writers explain why they write (and have trouble writing) one way, freshman-composition teachers another; literary critics and psychiatrists and neurologists have increasingly foreign explanations. These modes of thinking about the emotions that surround writing do not easily translate into one another. But one fact is always true: The mind that writes is also the brain that writes. And the existence of brain states that affect our creativity raises questions that make us uneasy. What is the relation between mind and body? What are the sources of imagination? How can both neuroscience and literature bear on the question of what makes writers not only able, but want, even need, to write? How can we understand the outpouring of authors like Joyce Carol Oates or Stephen King? Why does John Updike see a blank sheet of paper as radiant, the sun rising in the morning? ( As William Pritchard said of him, "He must have had an unpublished thought, but you couldn't tell it.") This seems --?and is --?an unbelievably complex psychological trait. Yet it is not so complex that it cannot be studied. Neurologists have found that changes in a specific area of the brain can produce hypergraphia, the medical term for an overpowering desire to write. Thinking in a counterintuitive, neurological way about what drives and frustrates literary creation can suggest new treatments for hypergraphia's more common and tormenting opposite, writer's block. Both of these conditions arise from complicated abnormalities of the basic biological drive to communicate. Evidence that ranges from Nabokov to neurochemistry, Faulkner to functional brain imaging, shows that thinking about excesses and dearths of writing can also clarify normal literary output and the mechanisms of creativity. The few current books on creativity that have included a neuroscientific perspective have neglected crucial brain regions such as the temporal lobe and limbic system in favor of a still-popular --?but oversimplified --?emphasis on a right brain-left brain dichotomy. The temporal lobes have been somewhat neglected by neurologists, in part because damage to the temporal lobes does not produce glaring motor or cognitive problems. But the temporal lobes are important for producing literature, in part because they are necessary for understanding semantic meaning and also Meaning in its philosophical senses, as in the Meaning of Life. And changes in the temporal lobes can produce hypergraphia. One example of these changes is temporal-lobe epilepsy. Some people with epilepsy stemming from temporal-lobe damage have hypergraphia so strong that they will write on toilet paper or use their own blood for ink if nothing else is at hand. Their hypergraphia is usually linked to other personality traits, including unstable mood and motivation, and a tendency to ruminate on the philosophical or religious Big Questions. Similar traits are often seen in people with manic-depression during their manic periods. And there is evidence for selective changes in the temporal lobes of people with mania. The temporal lobes appear to be important for the drive to seek beauty and meaning in nonliterary art forms as well. When Pick's disease, a rare form of dementia, selectively affects the temporal lobes, its victims may gain breathtaking artistic or musical drive, even as their ability to take part in other activities disintegrates. The same brain changes that drove the epileptic Vincent van Gogh's hypergraphic letters to his brother Theo seem also to have driven his frenetic painting --?at his peak he produced a new canvas every 36 hours. In some respects, hypergraphia and compulsive art-making are special cases of the more general phenomenon of a sense of vocation or of workaholism. They can shed light on how or whether to control these double-edged states. Nearly all of us, artists or not, feel the joy of work, the terrors of work. A second region critical for creative writing is the limbic system, the seat of emotion and drive. It gets its name from the fact that it forms a limbus or ring deep under the cortex. It drives many functions we wish we had conscious control over, but don't: for instance, hunger and sexual desire, and the experience of inspiration. The limbic system connects more strongly to the temporal lobes than to any other region of the cortex. This strong connection underlies the importance of emotion and drive to creativity --?factors that are anatomically as well as conceptually distinct from the cognitive contributions of the rest of the cerebral cortex. The limbic system also reflects the importance of mood swings in driving creativity. Although --?at least in principle --?everyone approves of creativity, many have been skeptical of attempts to study or enhance it. The artist's view of creativity is often that it should be left alone, that looking too closely could endanger it. Often, the basic scientist's view is also that creativity should be left alone, that it is by definition too anomalous for controlled study. That has left the study of creativity enhancement to New Age practitioners, inspirational-business seminar leaders, and a few brave social scientists. Even social scientists have been hesitant. Freud, in his essay on Dostoyevsky, wrote that "before the problem of the creative artist, analysis must, alas, lay down its arms." (To be fair, though, psychoanalysts have struggled more valiantly with the problem than have other clinicians. Psychopharmacologists have a tendency to dismiss creativity as a reason patients make up to excuse not taking their pills.) Some social scientists believe that enterprises as diverse as scientific discovery, literature, dancing, and successful business decisions should not all be lumped under the single concept of creativity. Howard Gardner, for instance, has argued that different intelligences are needed for different domains such as language and mathematics, and that creativity in one domain does not necessarily extend into another. Nonetheless, researchers on creativity have begun to combine information from a number of different disciplines, and argue persuasively that it is such an important phenomenon that we cannot afford not to study it. Most researchers agree that a useful definition of creative work is that it includes a combination of novelty and value. Creativity requires novelty because tried-and-true solutions are not creative, even if they are ingenious and useful. And creative works must be valuable (useful or illuminating to at least some members of the population) because a work that is merely odd is not creative. This two-factor definition of creativity also provides an explanation of why the creative can lie close to the crazy (unusual but valueless behavior). The definition of creative work as novel and valuable also captures the societal aspect of what gets called creative work. Creativity is not the property of a work in isolation: Novelty and value have to be defined in relation to a social context. When I use a lever and fulcrum to move a rock in my garden, I don't get the creativity points that I would have if I were Cro-Magnon. Sometimes the social context is not clear, however. Who should judge whether a work such as Finnegans Wake is creative? The general public is generally neither skilled nor interested enough, whereas specialists in a field are sometimes so invested in the status quo that they resist innovation. The role of social context in determining value also underlies the process whereby the geniuses of one generation are hacks the next, while people dismissed as mad are rehabilitated as geniuses. Sometimes the social context is all too clear; the notion of creative freedom becomes so rigidly codified that it is paradoxically restrictive. A good friend, a wonderfully inventive storyteller and decorator, nonetheless feels uncreative because she does not Paint or Write. Another recalls arguments with a high-school art teacher who insisted that he stop "limiting" his painting to black and white, and freely use color like the rest of the class. And a preschool teacher gently expressed concern about one of my daughters' enjoyment of precisely coloring within the lines of her coloring book (the other scribbles wildly). These examples also raise the issue of whether creativity can be taught, a thorny subject that I will now sidestep. Just as creative work requires novelty and value, the creative thinker who produces it requires both talent and drive. Here I'll lay down my arms before the question of talent, and take up a different set of weapons to shoot the easier target, drive. Hypergraphia is a window onto the nature of creative drive, and its neurological underpinnings are better understood than those of talent. Drives are largely controlled by the limbic system. The consensus seems to be that drive is surprisingly more important than talent in producing creative work. Researchers find that above an IQ of 115, there is essentially no correlation between creativity and intelligence. Rather, in Thomas A. Edison's words, "Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration." The argument that creativity is proportional to total output, is 99 percent perspiration, does not completely let us escape that problem of the remaining 1 percent, the sliver that separates the workaholic genius from the merely workaholic. Generating reams of text without some talent is not enough. As Eyler Coates put it, "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually produce a masterpiece. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." How, specifically, does motivation affect creativity, both the generation and editing of ideas? Hypergraphia doesn't guarantee writing skill; its products can range from the simple (for instance, an epileptic patient whose copious journal was endless repetition of the thought "Thank GOD, no seizures" in variously colored ink) to the sublime (the novels of Dostoevsky or Flaubert, also temporal-lobe epileptics). But a compulsive need to write may indirectly make good writing more likely by increasing the time the writer spends practicing. This may be one factor in the very high incidence of manic-depressive writers. Kay Redfield Jamison calculates that poets are up to 40 times more likely than the general population to have had manic episodes. It turns out to matter where the drive to write comes from. All driven writers focus on their work. But people driven by intrinsic motivations such as curio sity and enjoyment have a different relationship to the product of their work from those moved by extrinsic motivations including praise, money, and the constantly varying world of punishments. Someone who is fascinated by language attends to details and to the overall texture of a writing project more than she will if she is writing simply to satisfy the public. While strong intrinsic motivation increases creativity, surprisingly, adding extrinsic motivations --?even positive ones --?can actually decrease creativity. If that is true, paying a writer may paradoxically make him write less well. (As you might guess, I do not think this means you should not pay writers.) Reward may encourage the writer to stop work as soon as she has completed the minimal amount of work necessary for the reward, resulting in what Herbert Simon called "satisficing." Extrinsic motivation may also have a negative effect on creativity by distracting the subject's attention from the task to thoughts of reward or punishment. This implies that the best way to foster creative writing is to give the writer freedom to work on a subject he loves. But the motivation to write may also be infectious, as Plato described in the Ion. "[The Muse] first makes man inspired, and then through these inspired ones others share in the enthusiasm, and a chain is formed, for the epic poets, all the good ones, have their excellence, not from art, but are inspired, possessed, and thus they utter all these admirable poems." There is actually some scientific evidence for Plato's position: Children shown videos of other children enjoying their work not only enjoy their work more, but seem to escape the negative effect of extrinsic rewards. Reward makes them perform even better. But how to explain --?and help --?people who know how to write, seem to want desperately to write, and yet do not? This question is, of course, a special case of what to do with creative block in all fields. The scourge of block, and its handmaid procrastination, have been documented since the ancient Egyptians, who had two separate hieroglyphs for the latter. Does writer's block have a neurological basis that is the opposite of hypergraphia? Yes --?in certain respects. Block is highly associated with depression, just as hypergraphia is with mania. And block shares with depression some features of frontal-lobe alteration, including lack of initiative and excessive self-criticism. There is evidence for a push-pull interaction between temporal and frontal lobes in creativity, an axis that turns sideways the 1970s theory of right brain-left brain interactions. While a link between block and depression seems to fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that professional writers often suffer from depression, the fact is that talented writers are actually more likely to be blocked than poor writers. (This is true outside of literature as well. The tremendous outpouring of Leonardo da Vinci's ideas, for instance, was matched only by his long list of giant unfinished projects.) Most writers with depression do their writing not while depressed, but while on the edge of a mood change, or in a rebound euphoria. Indeed, many writers who carry the diagnosis of depression actually have mild bipolar disorder. This in part explains why writers can have odd combinations of block and hypergraphia simultaneously. For instance, the modern equivalent of Eliot's Mr. Casaubon, blocked on his grand Key to All Mythologies, may instead turn out megabytes of e-mail messages and blogs a day. Such genre specificity in block is more evidence that block is not a problem with cortical writing skills but with limbic drives. Yet many college programs fight block with cognitive strategies, such as making an outline and brainstorming, or with cognitive-behavioral therapy. While these are often appropriate, remembering that block is a brain state as well as a mental state can provide alternate approaches --?and not necessarily involving drugs such as antidepressants or stimulants. For instance, a writer who finds that his creativity and productivity plummet around Thanksgiving and Christmas every year may blame his lack of motivation, or wonder if the stress of seeing his dysfunctional family twice in two months is what is doing it. Yet a significant winter dip in creative output has been documented by researchers for artists in general. It is most likely due to shorter day length, which triggers an unpleasant hibernation instinct even in those of us who don't have full-blown seasonal affective disorder. The writer described here may therefore find setting a small light box on the table next to his breakfast cereal would have a more immediate benefit to his productivity than would working through issues with his mother --?although the latter option, of course, may have other benefits. The urge to write is a secondary drive that grows out of a more fundamental drive, the drive to communicate. But how fundamental is the drive to communicate? The behaviorists argued that it, too, is secondary, that we are conditioned to use language because it gets us things we want: food, sex, permission to use the bathroom when we are in elementary school. More recent researchers propose that communicating is something hardwired into us, that we have, in Steven Pinker's term, a language instinct. This position does not deny that language is useful for getting things; indeed, it argues that language has been hardwired just because it is so useful. The way emotion drives language becomes clearer when we look at the evolutionary origins of speech. Until recently nearly everything that was said about language origins proceeded from a certain smugness about our role as the only species with true language, with grammar. It is true that nonhuman primate communication contains only a limited number of signals (sounds or gestures with innate meaning, such as laughing or screaming) and even fewer symbols (items whose meaning must be learned, as in the snake- and eagle-alarm calls of vervet monkeys). And there is little interchange in primate communication --?primates make pronouncements rather than conversation. Finally, and crucially for followers of Noam Chomsky, primates have no grammar. But there is still important information to be gained from studying nonhuman primates. Linguists tend to focus on semantics and syntax, on sentences as vehicles that transmit solely a logical proposition. In practice, however, we often interpret sentences more "primitively," looking for the emotional or limbic aspects of speech, even before we bother with the semantic aspects. When a colleague bursts into your office with a rant about some departmental policy, you are likely to store the entire 15-minute tirade as a judgment about emotion --?"Anne is angry" --?and dispense with the cognitive aspects of her argument. Traditional linguists may argue that the emotional aspect of language, transmitted as much by tone as by words, does not separate it from primitive nonlinguistic gestures such as giving someone the finger, and thus is not a fit subject for linguists. It is nonetheless an essential subject for understanding what drives us to speak and write. Social monkeys are much more likely to make expressions of pain than are solitary species, because for the latter, wincing does not get them any aid; it merely attracts predators. Is it too reductionist to suggest that a major reason for creative writing is an abstracted version of the same biological urge that causes you to cry out in sorrow or anger? Let us call it the need theory of self-expression. It is perhaps a more inclusive formulation of Freud's description of literature, which he believed was driven only by unexpressed sexual needs. It also has a dollop of more modern neuroanatomy and evolutionary biology thrown in. There is admittedly a big step between nonlinguistic expressions of emotion and semantic propositions. Such an explanation need not fit all writing. It would not cover technical or impersonal writing --?the medical journal Prostate, or the book How to Talk to Your Cat come to mind. It would include most autobiographical writing, most fiction, most poetry, and most nonfiction in which the author had a strong personal stake in the subject. I was going to include my previous book, an apparently dry handbook of neurology, along with Prostate and How to Talk to Your Cat, but I realized that it secretly was a record of three very happy years as a neurology resident, under the tutelage of two wonderful mentors --?that's why I enjoyed writing it so much. Maybe the Cat guy had similar personal motives. If language and writing grow out of a biological system for attempting to fill needs, then the notion of self-expression, so often invoked vaguely to explain the artistic urge, can be better understood. Self-expression is not simply a broadcasting of personal characteristics or tastes. It is generally, if subliminally, much more goal-directed than that. Educators often justify art and creative-writing courses on the grounds that self-expression can teach the student more about himself or herself. This may be true to some extent, but many creative writers have been quite capable of powerfully emotive writing while lacking insight into the internal conflicts that drive their suffering. Nonetheless, while they may not gain insight, they may gain a sense of relief, and a sympathetic audience. Yet to the extent that self-expression does broadcast and reinforce a person's character, it makes clearer one more link between art and, if not mental illness, eccentricity. Because the more like ourselves we become, the odder we become. Insanity is like sanity, only much, much more so. This is most obvious in situations where society no longer keeps us in line: the eccentricity of the very rich, or of castaways. Can any of this need theory of self-expression be tested? One group of studies by Alice Brand provides evidence that writing, at least on personally chosen subjects, has measurable mood effects. In both students and professional writers, the act of writing both intensified positive emotions and blunted negative ones. This was somewhat of a surprise to researchers in the field of composition studies, as the standard view of writing emphasized the anxiety induced in students by writing assignments. The findings were consistent with what has been described by many writers, from hypergraphic patients to Joyce Carol Oates when she said, "I have forced myself to begin writing when I've been utterly exhausted, when I've felt my soul as thin as a playing card ... and somehow the activity of writing changes everything." Ernest Hemingway saw Oates's half-full glass as half-empty: "When I don't write, I feel like shit." Some writers, such as the poet Tina Kelley, describe a physical sensation of unease or restlessness that torments them if they haven't written for a few days. For others, it is a sort of headache, a stuffy, swollen brain. Milton described feeling like a cow that needs to be milked. And for many, there is the primal conviction that they should not do anything but write because it is their vocation, in a nearly religious sense. Writing is what they are meant to do, and the headaches and the restlessness are their body rebelling when it is kept from fulfilling its destiny. Reuniting language with the screams and cries of animal communication, looking at it not as vibrations in the ether but as a secretion of one of the spongiest organs in the body, goes against most of traditional linguistics' stress on language as semantics, as a way of making statements about truth. But the huge popularity of fiction, in which the majority of the "events" are not true, tells us that there is something more going on with language than the symbolization of truth, at least truth narrowly defined. If chimpanzees use utterances for emotional expression, if toddlers compulsively narrate events as they happen, it may be that these are merely the most primitive facets of language. But that is not a reason to neglect them. Their very primitiveness fits with what we feel about language and writing, that it is fundamental to our nature. Emotional meaning is deeper than cognitive meaning, both literarily and literally, anatomically in the heart of the brain. In thinking about language we need to broaden our scope from mastering syntax and constructing tight paragraphs, to look also at gains and losses of significance, the afflictions of writers who write too much or hold back from writing, and our primal desire for our words to mean something to someone else, somewhere. Alice Weaver Flaherty is a staff neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital and a neurology instructor at Harvard Medical School. This essay is excerpted from The Midnight Disease: The Drive to Write, Writer's Block, and the Creative Brain, to be published in January by Houghton Mifflin. Copyright 2004 ? by Alice Weaver Flaherty. http://chronicle.com Section: The Chronicle Review Volume 50, Issue 13, Page B6 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Fri Jan 30 10:34:26 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:34:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brautigan Message-ID: It's Richard Brautigan's birthday. Haiku Ambulance A piece of green pepper fell off the wooden salad bowl: so what? --Richard Brautigan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi Fri Jan 30 10:52:18 2004 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:52:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130095116.02097ee0@mail.ilstu.edu> I FEEL HORRIBLE, SHE DOESN'T I feel horrible. She doesn't love me and I wander around like a sewing machine that's just finished sewing a turd to a garbage can lid. - Richard Brautigan From grahamd Fri Jan 30 11:01:42 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:01:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130095116.02097ee0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: XEROX CANDY BAR Ah, you're just a copy of all the candy bars I've ever eaten. --Richard Brautigan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi Fri Jan 30 11:13:48 2004 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:13:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130095116.02097ee0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130101108.02b9d6d8@mail.ilstu.edu> WE STOPPED AT PERFECT DAYS We stopped at perfect days and got out of the car. The wind glanced at her hair. It was as simple as that. I turned to say something-- - Richard Brautigan From grahamd Fri Jan 30 11:19:50 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:19:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130101108.02b9d6d8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: -2 Everybody wants to go to bed with everybody else, they're lined up for blocks, so I'll go to bed with you. They won't miss us. --Richard Brautigan From hruggier Fri Jan 30 10:53:47 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:53:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase References: Message-ID: <01fb01c3e74d$846efc70$2e099942@Helen> He's afraid Sam Hammill will come after him one of the pipsqueaks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase > Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has proposed to > substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. One of > Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really are the > unacknowledged legislators of the world. > > Paul Lake > > > January 29, 2004 > > Bush Seeks $18M Budget Increase for Arts > By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS > > Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET > > WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush is proposing a big funding boost to the > National Endowment for the Arts, an agency that once was a favorite target > of Republicans. The money would go for a new program to give Americans an > up-close look at their arts heritage. > > The $18 million increase, a 15 percent hike in the NEA's funding, would be > the largest in years. Last year, Congress increased the agency's funding to > $122.5 million, up from $115.7 million but still well below what the agency > received 25 years ago. > > Most of the increase Bush is proposing in his upcoming federal budget would > be used for a new initiative called ``American Masterpieces: Three Centuries > of Artistic Genius.'' The programs will take works of American art on tour > to large and small communities in all 50 states, said Douglas Sonntag, > director of the NEA's Office of National Initiatives. > > Sonntag said the program also will create educational packages of videos and > study guides tailored for schoolchildren, bringing jazz, Shakespeare, dance > and other art forms to classrooms nationwide. > > While federal spending on the arts has edged up slightly, cash-strapped > state governments have slashed funding for theaters, museums and performance > groups by nearly one quarter. > > The NEA's budget was slashed when Republicans gained control of Congress in > 1995. Conservatives were upset by some of the projects funded by the NEA, > such as works by controversial artists like Robert Mapplethorpe, contending > they were a threat to the nation's moral standards. > > The arts agency is one of the few domestic programs in line for a major > spending increase under the budget plan Bush will unveil Tuesday. He has > proposed holding spending for non-defense, non-domestic security programs to > an increase of about 0.5 percent. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From hruggier Fri Jan 30 11:33:27 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:33:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brautigan References: Message-ID: <02ec01c3e74e$ca8ba2c0$2e099942@Helen> One of my peresonal favorites - and I'm adding the candy bar one to my list xxx h ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 10:34 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Brautigan > It's Richard Brautigan's birthday. > > > > Haiku Ambulance > > A piece of green pepper > fell > off the wooden salad bowl: > so what? > > --Richard Brautigan > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From barry.spacks Fri Jan 30 12:28:46 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:28:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Brautigan In-Reply-To: <200401301701.i0UH18bk025047@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040130092614.00b2ab40@incoming.verizon.net> FAME Wearing my soft black Australian hat I walk my friends' dog down Panchita Street. I've been house-sitting, dog-walking, reading all week Richard Brautigan, who wrote that the beauty is all in the saying, who would not tie the bird of lunacy by a short string to his toe, but rather would let her fly in long loopy moves, like a book's page-turning, all in the name and the acting-out of freedom, who shot off his head absolutely, done in, they say, by the Bitch Fame-Goddess, broken on her gerbil-treadwheel, depressed, uncheered, remaining a time unidentified so de-headed there and vodka-drowned and Not, in Bolinas, California, talk about freedom. I think he would have liked my hat and surely my friends' dog Ida, black-and-white border collie with yearning eyes who'd herd anything to safety, sheep or zephyr, doing her dog-work. "Fame is the spur," blind Milton wrote, but added little of use in Bolinas about "these terrifying honors." -- Barry Spacks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Fri Jan 30 12:08:55 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:08:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia In-Reply-To: <2d.391c70dd.2d4b1541@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 29, 2004, at 09:02 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Did anyone hear the piece on NPR this morning? > I think the author said 80% of poets are afflicted with > a form of hypergaphia... > Alice Flarehty's Midnight Disease > http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/ > titledetail.cfm?titleNumber=688190 > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Don't walk so fast. The rain is everywhere. --Shunryu Suzuki -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jvcervantes Fri Jan 30 13:24:48 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:24:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia References: Message-ID: <401AA170.14804298@earthlink.net> Wendy Battin wrote: > > On Thursday, January 29, 2004, at 09:02 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Did anyone hear the piece on NPR this morning? > I think the author said 80% of poets are afflicted with > a form of hypergaphia... > Alice Flarehty's Midnight Disease > http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/titledetail.cfm?titleNumber=688190 > > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. Yes. It makes me sad. Then happy. Then sad . . . - Jim From atlas Fri Jan 30 13:39:36 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:39:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia References: <401AA170.14804298@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <035f01c3e760$697667b0$739edf18@atlas> J. Cervantes wrote: > > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. > > Yes. It makes me sad. Then happy. Then sad . . . Thank God she didn't say they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive.... Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary.... From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 13:31:39 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:31:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia Message-ID: Farewell Mapplethorpe, Hello Shakespeare The NEA, the W. way. By Roger Kimball Under normal circumstances, the White House announcement that the president was seeking a big budget increase for the National Endowment for the Arts might have been grounds for dismay. Pronounce the acronym "NEA," and most people think Robert Mapplethorpe, photographs of crucifixes floating in urine, and performance artists prancing about naked, smeared with chocolate, and skirling about the evils of patriarchy. Thanks, but no thanks. But things have changed, and changed for the better at the NEA. The reason can be summed up in two trochees: Dana Gioia, the distinguished poet and critic who is the Endowment's new chairman. Within a matter of months, Mr. Gioia has transformed that moribund institution into a vibrant force for the preservation and transmission of artistic culture. He has cut out the cutting edge and put back the art. Instead of supporting repellent "transgressive" freaks, he has instituted an important new program to bring Shakespeare to communities across America. And by Shakespeare I mean Shakespeare, not some PoMo rendition that portrays Hamlet in drag or sets A Midsummer Night's Dream in a concentration camp. (Check the website www.shakespeareinamericancommunities.org for more information.) Mr. Gioia is moving on other fronts as well. He has hired a number of able deputies who care about art and understand that what the public wants is more access to good art ? opera, poetry, theater, literature ? not greater exposure to social pathology dressed up as art. After a couple of decades of cultural schizophrenia, the NEA has become a clear-sighted, robust institution intent on bringing important art to the American people. It's quite odd, really. People keep telling us ? that is, professors and CNN commentators and Hollywood actors keep telling us ? how very stupid President Bush is. Yet everywhere one looks he is supporting some of the most intelligent and dynamic people ever to occupy their cultural posts. Dana Gioia at the NEA, his counterpart Bruce Cole at the National Endowment for the Humanities, Leon Kass and his panel of distinguished scientists and philosophers at the President's Council on Bioethics (see their website www.bioethics.gov to get a sense of the good work they are doing on clarifying the enormous moral issues surrounding the debate over biotechnology). The Left keeps screaming about how dim George Bush is, but in the meantime, he has illuminated one area of public life after another with immensely talented and articulate people. There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives ? by which term I mean people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past ? should applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come home. ? Roger Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion and author of Art's Prospect: The Challenge of Tradition in an Age of Celebrity. ? ? ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? ? ? ? --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From atlas Fri Jan 30 14:03:41 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:03:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia References: Message-ID: <037501c3e763$c70e7d60$739edf18@atlas> Paul Lake quotes Kimball: > There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent > government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be > no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should > be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush > approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives < by which term I mean > people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past < should > applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come > home. "The George Bush apporach to cultural reinvogoration?" That's the funniest thing I've ever read. Thank you, Paul. As a good conservative I support shutting down the production of new art -- we have what we need, thank you. We only need do Shakespeare from here on out (a bowdlerized, of course) because Shakespeare said it all (and some of what he said we don't want repeated). Mike Geary An enlightened life-affirmer firmly in favor of conserving whatever in the past affirms my conservation. From mandolin Fri Jan 30 14:09:00 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:09:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase In-Reply-To: <01fb01c3e74d$846efc70$2e099942@Helen> References: <01fb01c3e74d$846efc70$2e099942@Helen> Message-ID: One of Gioia's first publications after his appointment was a review of Rexroth's Collected, published by Hammill's Press. The "tea-party" Hammill managed to cancel was supposed to introduce Gioia. Hammill wondered who thought of inviting him. It was probably Dana Gioia. On Jan 30, 2004, at 10:53 AM, Helen Ruggieri wrote: > He's afraid Sam Hammill will come after him > > one of the pipsqueaks > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:46 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase > > >> Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has >> proposed > to >> substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. >> One > of >> Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really >> are > the >> unacknowledged legislators of the world. >> >> Paul Lake >> >> >> January 29, 2004 >> >> Bush Seeks $18M Budget Increase for Arts >> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS >> >> Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET >> >> WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush is proposing a big funding boost to >> the >> National Endowment for the Arts, an agency that once was a favorite >> target >> of Republicans. The money would go for a new program to give >> Americans an >> up-close look at their arts heritage. >> >> The $18 million increase, a 15 percent hike in the NEA's funding, >> would be >> the largest in years. Last year, Congress increased the agency's >> funding > to >> $122.5 million, up from $115.7 million but still well below what the > agency >> received 25 years ago. >> >> Most of the increase Bush is proposing in his upcoming federal budget > would >> be used for a new initiative called ``American Masterpieces: Three > Centuries >> of Artistic Genius.'' The programs will take works of American art on >> tour >> to large and small communities in all 50 states, said Douglas Sonntag, >> director of the NEA's Office of National Initiatives. >> >> Sonntag said the program also will create educational packages of >> videos > and >> study guides tailored for schoolchildren, bringing jazz, Shakespeare, > dance >> and other art forms to classrooms nationwide. >> >> While federal spending on the arts has edged up slightly, >> cash-strapped >> state governments have slashed funding for theaters, museums and > performance >> groups by nearly one quarter. >> >> The NEA's budget was slashed when Republicans gained control of >> Congress > in >> 1995. Conservatives were upset by some of the projects funded by the >> NEA, >> such as works by controversial artists like Robert Mapplethorpe, > contending >> they were a threat to the nation's moral standards. >> >> The arts agency is one of the few domestic programs in line for a >> major >> spending increase under the budget plan Bush will unveil Tuesday. He >> has >> proposed holding spending for non-defense, non-domestic security >> programs > to >> an increase of about 0.5 percent. >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From schroesd Fri Jan 30 15:05:24 2004 From: schroesd (Steven Schroeder) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:05:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia References: <037501c3e763$c70e7d60$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: <001e01c3e76c$661d3420$760e4044@STEVECOMPUTER> It's possible to point out that Kimball is beating a straw man without dragging in one of your own. Steven D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Geary To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Gioia Paul Lake quotes Kimball: > There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent > government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be > no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should > be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush > approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives < by which term I mean > people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past < should > applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come > home. "The George Bush apporach to cultural reinvogoration?" That's the funniest thing I've ever read. Thank you, Paul. As a good conservative I support shutting down the production of new art -- we have what we need, thank you. We only need do Shakespeare from here on out (a bowdlerized, of course) because Shakespeare said it all (and some of what he said we don't want repeated). Mike Geary An enlightened life-affirmer firmly in favor of conserving whatever in the past affirms my conservation. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 14:47:49 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:47:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia In-Reply-To: <037501c3e763$c70e7d60$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: on 1/30/04 1:03 PM, Michael Geary at atlas at earthlink.net wrote: > "The George Bush apporach to cultural reinvogoration?" That's the funniest > thing I've ever read. Thank you, Paul. I didn't write the article, only posted it. Glad to hear you're a life-affirmer, though. The alternative is so depressing. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 14:53:02 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:53:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/30/04 1:09 PM, Michael Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote: > One of Gioia's first publications after his appointment was a review of > Rexroth's Collected, published by Hammill's Press. The "tea-party" > Hammill managed to cancel was supposed to introduce Gioia. Hammill > wondered who thought of inviting him. It was probably Dana Gioia. It was most certainly Dana who invited him, and so typical. In supporting Hammill's publication of Rexroth, an anarcho-leftist outsider, Gioia showed his catholic tastes and non-political assessment of literary merit. A Rexroth fan myself since my late teens, I applaud both Dana's review and his inclusion of Hammill in the White House celebration, even if Hammill spat upon them to score a political point. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 15:03:01 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:03:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA: A Conservative's Reaction Message-ID: Here's a reaction to the NEA increase from a writer at National Review: MARIE ANTOINETTE WATCH [Andrew Stuttaford] ... More cash for the NEA? Good grief. Every time you think that it's impossible for George W Bush to spring another rat from his hat, he goes and does it again, but, to take some recent instances, what else can you expect from a president who signs laws he believes to be unconstitutional, proposes a vast guestworker program in the middle of difficult times for blue collar America, recruits Jules Verne as a science advisor, squanders a SOTU driveling on about steroids, and as for the budget... Now there's the NEA. Roger Kimball makes the best case that can be made for the White House's decision to hurl money the country doesn't have at an institution the country doesn't need, but he's being far too kind. Even if it is agreed that government should be directly funding 'culture' (I don't think government should, but that's a different debate), the president's decision is bound to backfire. Remember O'Sullivan's law. Any organization that is not explicitly conservative will ultimately end up in the hands of the left. Dana Gioia may indeed be doing splendid work at the moment, but neither he nor George W. Bush will be in office forever. At some point in the future, maybe under a future Democratic administration or maybe just as a result of bureaucratic drift, the NEA will inevitably fall back into its old, bad habits - only this time on a much bigger budget. As one seems to be saying more and more these days: thanks for nothing, Mr. President. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From hruggier Fri Jan 30 15:23:51 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:23:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia References: Message-ID: <041c01c3e76e$fa306400$2e099942@Helen> Irony? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 1:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia > > > Farewell Mapplethorpe, Hello Shakespeare > The NEA, the W. way. > By Roger Kimball > > Under normal circumstances, the White House announcement that the president > was seeking a big budget increase for the National Endowment for the Arts > might have been grounds for dismay. Pronounce the acronym "NEA," and most > people think Robert Mapplethorpe, photographs of crucifixes floating in > urine, and performance artists prancing about naked, smeared with chocolate, > and skirling about the evils of patriarchy. > > Thanks, but no thanks. > > But things have changed, and changed for the better at the NEA. The reason > can be summed up in two trochees: Dana Gioia, the distinguished poet and > critic who is the Endowment's new chairman. > > Within a matter of months, Mr. Gioia has transformed that moribund > institution into a vibrant force for the preservation and transmission of > artistic culture. He has cut out the cutting edge and put back the art. > Instead of supporting repellent "transgressive" freaks, he has instituted an > important new program to bring Shakespeare to communities across America. > And by Shakespeare I mean Shakespeare, not some PoMo rendition that portrays > Hamlet in drag or sets A Midsummer Night's Dream in a concentration camp. > (Check the website www.shakespeareinamericancommunities.org for more > information.) > > Mr. Gioia is moving on other fronts as well. He has hired a number of able > deputies who care about art and understand that what the public wants is > more access to good art < opera, poetry, theater, literature < not greater > exposure to social pathology dressed up as art. After a couple of decades of > cultural schizophrenia, the NEA has become a clear-sighted, robust > institution intent on bringing important art to the American people. > > It's quite odd, really. People keep telling us < that is, professors and CNN > commentators and Hollywood actors keep telling us < how very stupid > President Bush is. Yet everywhere one looks he is supporting some of the > most intelligent and dynamic people ever to occupy their cultural posts. > Dana Gioia at the NEA, his counterpart Bruce Cole at the National Endowment > for the Humanities, Leon Kass and his panel of distinguished scientists and > philosophers at the President's Council on Bioethics (see their website > www.bioethics.gov to get a sense of the good work they are doing on > clarifying the enormous moral issues surrounding the debate over > biotechnology). The Left keeps screaming about how dim George Bush is, but > in the meantime, he has illuminated one area of public life after another > with immensely talented and articulate people. > > There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent > government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be > no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should > be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush > approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives < by which term I mean > people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past < should > applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come > home. > > < Roger Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion and author of Art's > Prospect: The Challenge of Tradition in an Age of Celebrity. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames Fri Jan 30 15:41:52 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:41:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: <1ab.1fb6a390.2d4c1b90@aol.com> In a message dated 1/30/04 3:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > I applaud both Dana's review and his > inclusion of Hammill in the White House celebration, even if Hammill spat > upon them to score a political point. Paul, I'm not anxious to rehash the history of this, but I think "spat upon" is an overstatement, even if entirely figurative. No one knows what he would have done had he attended the event. He may have, very politely, used his time/limelight to read a poem in opposition to the growing tide of war. I recall Marilyn Nelson said she had intended to wear a scarf emblazoned with a peace sign. My recollection is that the tea party was pre-emptively canceled because the White House was afraid a few other poets (like Hammil, who I think had already declined to attend) might speak their minds in front of the First Lady. Finnegan From anny.ballardini Fri Jan 30 16:35:36 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:35:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia References: <401AA170.14804298@earthlink.net> <035f01c3e760$697667b0$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: <008801c3e778$ffa82fd0$d6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> I will never read her article, I promised myself I would never finish it, I do not believe a word she is writing, I think this is her problem, I have better things to do, like watching a movie for example, writing to the list, doing the washing up, reading my mail, calling my people, working for bread, writing something interesting, I think the (unread by me) article shows the mental instability of the author (even if it is so rationally structured) and since it is based on research and statistics, of all those who collaborated and finally grouped up nicely, a similar comparison can be given by someone who writes only about sex and gives us easy keys to understand s/he suffers from sexual problems, here it is evident that the said author has a compulsive need to investigate her brain, because something is actually/possibly lacking. Or, she has worked on commission, and under this light I prefer yogurt with strawberries to her product. Best regards, Anny Ballardini From: "Michael Geary" > J. Cervantes wrote: > > > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some > degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. > > > > Yes. It makes me sad. Then happy. Then sad . . . > > Thank God she didn't say they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive.... > > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary.... > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 Fri Jan 30 17:47:19 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:47:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: <130.2a8c6d6b.2d4c38f7@cs.com> In a message dated 1/30/2004 2:04:21 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > It was most certainly Dana who invited him, and so typical. In supporting > Hammill's publication of Rexroth, an anarcho-leftist outsider, Gioia showed > his catholic tastes and non-political assessment of literary merit. A > Rexroth fan myself since my late teens, I applaud both Dana's review and his > inclusion of Hammill in the White House celebration, even if Hammill spat > upon them to score a political point. > > Paul Lake I believe the invites for this event were in the mail before Gioia took over the NEA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Fri Jan 30 17:53:10 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:53:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA: A Conservative's Reaction Message-ID: In a message dated 1/30/2004 2:14:53 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > Here's a reaction to the NEA increase from a writer at National Review: > Rush Limbaugh weighed in on it too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 13:13:29 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:13:29 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Fame Message-ID: > FAME > > [...] > > -- Barry Spacks nice _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ?net deals ? comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 13:14:49 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:14:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: > This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. Damn, now there's coffee all over my screen and keyboard. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up ? fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 31 13:24:33 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 19:24:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase References: Message-ID: <002401c3e827$7a5f2450$861c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> that you were sensitive to words I always knew, but that _reinvigoration_ should make you _sursauter_ like that... :-) a From: "Jon Corelis" > > This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. > > > Damn, now there's coffee all over my screen and keyboard. > > > ================================================== > > Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics > > ================================================== > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up - fast & reliable Internet access with prime > features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 13:25:34 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:25:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm a prophet! Message-ID: I sent this to another poetry list on April 1, 2003: FEDERAL POETRY SUBSIDIES PROPOSED Washington, D. C. (CNS) - In a surprise move, the Bush Administration has announced that it will propose legislation in Congress to subsidize the production of verse by American poets. The program, which will be modeled on the longstanding federal agricultural price support program, will be designed to ensure a market at a basic price support level for the nation's poetry output. According to administration spokeswoman April Narr, a goal of the subsidies will be to ensure the continuing production of particular types of verse for which the market is currently weak. "For instance," she said at a news conference this morning, "not too many people write sonnets or heroic couplets any more, so those types of verse would be eligible for special price supports." Narr also said in response to questions that although the details have yet to be worked out, subject matter may also be taken into account to determine the price support levels of different types of poems. "There are plenty poems being written about having an affair or traveling in Europe or watching your child grow up," she said, "so that sort of poetry probably needs less subsidy. But poems about junk yards or shaving cream or peeling an orange are more rare and may be deserving of more price support." When questioned as to whether the public will accept a government program which channels taxpayers' dollars to poets, Narr replied, "It's really not such an unusual idea when you think of it. After all, if the federal government can pay farmers to produce soybeans, why can't it pay poets to produce sonnets?" ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ? optimizes dial-up to the max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 From JforJames Sat Jan 31 14:11:05 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:11:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] godfather to American confessionalism Message-ID: <6.212cc87f.2d4d57c9@aol.com> http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/classics/story/0,6000,1135228,00.html Tuckerman's appeal to anyone who loved Wordsworth and Tennyson would naturally be strong; but his particular personal note, both confessional and oblique, has the fascination of something altogether more modern. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 31 14:28:11 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:28:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] David Robert Books--Stanzas Contest Message-ID: <65.21a6ba8c.2d4d5bcb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:37:27 -0500 From: Kevin Walzer Subject: David Robert Books--Stanzas Contest This is just a reminder that the deadline for the David Robert Books Stanzas Contest for a full-length collection is February 15, 2004. For more information and guidelines, as well as a look at our current titles, please see this website: http://www.davidrobertbooks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 14:45:12 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:45:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Robert Books--Stanzas Contest Message-ID: The fine print: "The winner receives $1,000 and 25 copies of his/her book; runners-up receive five copies of their published book and a royalty contract. Reading fee: $25.00." ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 From DICK Sat Jan 31 15:53:07 2004 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 04 15:53:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: <200401312054.i0VKsvm1120844@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:01:02 -0500 ************* Sam Gwynn wrote: > >Rush Limbaugh weighed in on it too. Sam, say it isn't so. Richard From JforJames Sat Jan 31 17:49:57 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:49:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Message-ID: <155.2c7221b4.2d4d8b15@aol.com> Does anyone have the full text of this piece and/or Milosz's response?. perhaps a URL.. ?Against the Poets,? which Witold Gombrowicz published in the Polish emigre journal Kultura. In this essay (to which Milosz published a rejoinder), which was clearly meant as an intellectual and cultural provocation, Gombrowicz assailed poetry and the poets with more heat than light, but also with considerable panache and sarcasm... "Ah, ah, Shelley, Ah, ah Slowacki! Ah, the word of the Poet, the mission of the Poet, and the soul of the Poet? I have to attack these prayers and spoil this ritual as much as I can simply in the name of elementary anger, which all flaws of style, all distortion, all flights from reality arouse in us?. The thesis of the? essay, that almost no one likes poems and that the world of verse is a fiction and a falsehood, will seem, I assume, as bold as it is frivolous. Yet here I stand before you and declare that I don't like poems at all and that they even bore me. Maybe you will say that I am a poor ignoramus. Yet I have laboured in art for a long time and its language is not completely alien to me?. Why then does this pharmaceutical extract called ?pure poetry? bore and weary me, especially when it appears in rhymed form? Why can't I stand this monotonous, endlessly lofty singing? Why do rhythm and rhyme put me to sleep? Why does the language of poets seem to me to be the least interesting language conceivable? Sugar is good for sweetening coffee, but not for eating by the spoonful like gruel. In pure, rhymed poetry, it's the excess that wearies; the excess of condensation and purification of all antipoetic elements, which results in poems similar to chemical products." -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 31 18:08:44 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:08:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets References: <155.2c7221b4.2d4d8b15@aol.com> Message-ID: <003101c3e84f$2d98e0c0$861c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> I have a French edition here: Contre les Po?tes Editions Complexe / Le regard litteraire; with a preface by M. Carcassonne and C. Guias. I bought the book because I was touched by his Pornography (1962). Ce qui lasse dans la Po?sie pure, c'est l'exc?s de po?sie, oui, la pl?thore de paroles po?tiques, de m?taphores, de sublimation, - bref, l'exc?s de condensation - qui ?purent ces textes de tout ?l?ment anti-po?tique et dont l'accumulation fait finalement ressembler le po?me ? un produit chimique. My French is not that good any more... Difficult to find Gombrowicz on the net. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Does anyone have the full text of this piece and/or Milosz's response?. perhaps a URL.. ?Against the Poets,? which Witold Gombrowicz published in the Polish emigre journal Kultura. In this essay (to which Milosz published a rejoinder), which was clearly meant as an intellectual and cultural provocation, Gombrowicz assailed poetry and the poets with more heat than light, but also with considerable panache and sarcasm... "Ah, ah, Shelley, Ah, ah Slowacki! Ah, the word of the Poet, the mission of the Poet, and the soul of the Poet? I have to attack these prayers and spoil this ritual as much as I can simply in the name of elementary anger, which all flaws of style, all distortion, all flights from reality arouse in us?. The thesis of the? essay, that almost no one likes poems and that the world of verse is a fiction and a falsehood, will seem, I assume, as bold as it is frivolous. Yet here I stand before you and declare that I don't like poems at all and that they even bore me. Maybe you will say that I am a poor ignoramus. Yet I have laboured in art for a long time and its language is not completely alien to me?. Why then does this pharmaceutical extract called ?pure poetry? bore and weary me, especially when it appears in rhymed form? Why can't I stand this monotonous, endlessly lofty singing? Why do rhythm and rhyme put me to sleep? Why does the language of poets seem to me to be the least interesting language conceivable? Sugar is good for sweetening coffee, but not for eating by the spoonful like gruel. In pure, rhymed poetry, it's the excess that wearies; the excess of condensation and purification of all antipoetic elements, which results in poems similar to chemical products." -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL Sat Jan 31 18:34:26 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:34:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Message-ID: In a message dated 1/31/2004 6:09:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: have a French edition here: Contre les Po?tes Editions Complexe / Le regard litteraire; with a preface by M. Carcassonne and C. Guias. I bought the book because I was touched by his Pornography (1962). Ce qui lasse dans la Po?sie pure, c'est l'exc?s de po?sie, oui, la pl?thore de paroles po?tiques, de m?taphores, de sublimation, - bref, l'exc?s de condensation - qui ?purent ces textes de tout ?l?ment anti-po?tique et dont l'accumulation fait finalement ressembler le po?me ? un produit chimique. My French is not that good any more... Difficult to find Gombrowicz on the net. Anny Here's a reasonable pass at it, I guess, but Margo on Paris time will doubtless make it work a bit better in the morning: What wearies in pure poetry [meant sarcastically] is the excess of poetry, yes, the plethora of (self-consciously) Poetic words, of metaphors, of sublimation, - in short, the excess of compression - which purges these texts of any anti-poetic element and whose accumulation in the end makes of the poem resemble a pharmaceutical product. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atlas Sat Jan 31 18:42:49 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:42:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets References: <155.2c7221b4.2d4d8b15@aol.com> Message-ID: <028301c3e853$f012f650$739edf18@atlas> Yes, it's all pig shit. It makes nothing happen. So? That has nothing to do with my liking it. It's a fun game. Sometimes even poetical, like when it sometimes causes me to step out of my body and Wrightly break into blossom. But I do hate lit crit, don't get me wrong. Mike Geary ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 4:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Does anyone have the full text of this piece and/or Milosz's response?. perhaps a URL.. ?Against the Poets,? which Witold Gombrowicz published in the Polish emigre journal Kultura. In this essay (to which Milosz published a rejoinder), which was clearly meant as an intellectual and cultural provocation, Gombrowicz assailed poetry and the poets with more heat than light, but also with considerable panache and sarcasm... "Ah, ah, Shelley, Ah, ah Slowacki! Ah, the word of the Poet, the mission of the Poet, and the soul of the Poet? I have to attack these prayers and spoil this ritual as much as I can simply in the name of elementary anger, which all flaws of style, all distortion, all flights from reality arouse in us?. The thesis of the? essay, that almost no one likes poems and that the world of verse is a fiction and a falsehood, will seem, I assume, as bold as it is frivolous. Yet here I stand before you and declare that I don't like poems at all and that they even bore me. Maybe you will say that I am a poor ignoramus. Yet I have laboured in art for a long time and its language is not completely alien to me?. Why then does this pharmaceutical extract called ?pure poetry? bore and weary me, especially when it appears in rhymed form? Why can't I stand this monotonous, endlessly lofty singing? Why do rhythm and rhyme put me to sleep? Why does the language of poets seem to me to be the least interesting language conceivable? Sugar is good for sweetening coffee, but not for eating by the spoonful like gruel. In pure, rhymed poetry, it's the excess that wearies; the excess of condensation and purification of all antipoetic elements, which results in poems similar to chemical products." -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trbell Sat Jan 31 18:34:06 2004 From: trbell (tom bell) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:34:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: A Conversation with Marjorie Perloff (from Fulcrum) Message-ID: <03ca01c3e852$b9300480$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Bernstein" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 5:09 PM Subject: A Conversation with Marjorie Perloff (from Fulcrum) > The Fall (#2) issue of Fulcrum (now out of print) featured Marjorie > Perloff's conversation with me. > > This is now available at Perloff's EPC home page: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/perloff/articles/mp_cb.html > > Thanks to Fulcrum editors Philip Nikolayev & Katia Kapovich. From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 19:46:08 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:46:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: NEA increase Message-ID: > This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. Whenver I think of this now I imagine it as the caption to one of those news photos of the National Museum of Iraq. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ? optimizes dial-up to the max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 20:02:32 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:02:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against the poets Message-ID: Lierature bores me, especially great literature. -- John Berryman ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 From halvard Thu Jan 1 00:29:00 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:29:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! Message-ID: Here in NYC, the New Year is 25 minutes old. Happy New Year, everyone. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 07:00:37 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 07:00:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> Message-ID: <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > > regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > > stated or implied). > > Frankly, Bob, I just don't get this. > > What is it about the poem that locates it in spring? > > April may be the cruelest month breeding lilacs out of a dead land (though > for terminal hell give me "Childe Roland" any day) but "In a Station of the > Metro"? The image of the petal is an image of spring. The faces are equated with it, which makes them spring. It seems to me that any word in a haiku that identifies what season it is about is a season word, and this one is about spring, the discovery of spring in the faces in the crowd. > I think you're confusing this with "The Jewel Stair's Grievance", which > actually +does+ have a seasonal (spring) reference. > > > > It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > > > > > > R. > > > > Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > > from. > > That hell is other people is *so* sixties, regardless of the season. I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the people as leaving it. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 07:50:35 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:50:35 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000b01c3d065$d994ae60$e8728051@MyPC> > The image of the petal is an image of spring. Um ... a dubious generalisation that. > I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > people as leaving it. Actually, this may be the crunch of our disagreement. Sure, the Metro that Pound is referring to is a French subway. (Underground? I can never remember how the terminology plays in the US. Here, the underground is what trains run in. Under. [What Pound was referencing.] And a subway is what people use to walk under the road.) But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin From halvard Thu Jan 1 08:15:59 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 08:15:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Year" Message-ID: NEW YEAR Cardinals fly up from the edge of the near field, another year's luck. The haiku poet gives us a morning gift: Starry night: she squeezes in between her husband and her ex A road, a fence, a field. A table on which a book lies open: History of the Great American Fortunes by Gustavus Myers. A glimpse out the window of gray and white cat. I open the door and in it comes. This is the first day, unlike any other. for Lynda Lynda and I met at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts back in the late 80s, got engaged there the next year, and have been back a number of times since. VCCA is an arts colony about eleven miles north of Lynchburg and the James River, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. We owe the place a lot. The poem above comes from one of our first joint residencies there, and the haiku poet was Dee Everts, who still lives and works here in NYC, I believe. The association of sighting cardinals with New Year's luck began, as far as I know, with Chicago painter Tony Phillips and the late Jerry Badanes, who would wander the premises and nearby roads until they'd seen their New Year's cardinal. One year this took them nearly all day. Hal "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 09:23:48 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:23:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <1c3.1389bcce.2d258774@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > people as leaving it. > > --Bob G. A Metro station is underground, not above it. The poem is set "in" a station. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 09:30:44 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:30:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > > But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > windows as the train sped along in the dark. > > Hm ... > > Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > copy to hand. > > (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) > > Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > edit her deceased husband's notes. > > Robin > Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 09:45:30 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:45:30 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000b01c3d065$d994ae60$e8728051@MyPC> Message-ID: <001d01c3d075$e767b3b0$9b188051@MyPC> > it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > edit her deceased husband's notes. ... which among other things suggests that girls are brighter than boys. I still cringe at the memory of being shown a tatty second-carbon typescript of Tom Leonard's "A Priest Got On At Merkland Street" [One of the few stations in the severely-limited Glasgow Metro system. After Glasgow dropped trams sometime in the early sixties, which was at that point stunningly stupid as when the winter fog bit down, this was before they banned coal-burning fires, about the only form of transport that could operate was the trams.] ... in the Glasgow University Men's Union sometime in the late-middle sixties and casually dismissing it as illiterate shite. Difficult to get wronger than that, especially as the line(s), "It was Christmas -- we opened a can of God" appeared there somewhere. On the other hand, much good did it ever do me, I really *was* the first person to review D.M.Black. I think bound-into the Hamilton genes is something singularly self-destructive. :-( Robin From Thom424 Thu Jan 1 10:04:16 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:04:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" Message-ID: <11.1f9709e2.2d2590f0@aol.com> From Thom424 Thu Jan 1 10:12:36 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:12:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" Message-ID: <16e.2839b90f.2d2592e4@aol.com> Oops! I don't think the source for that post made it: http://www.themargins.net/bib/B/BK/bk00.html A valuable resource, by the way. Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Thu Jan 1 10:14:25 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:14:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> Message-ID: <00db01c3d079$f1d58b70$60def63f@Helen> I'd like to see the original if you have access ... can you scan it in? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 10:14:42 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:14:42 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> Message-ID: <002401c3d079$fbbc0790$9b188051@MyPC> << Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. >> You're right and I'm even more than usually sloppy in my referencing. The text where Pound writes this was first-published in 1913, and the poem written "three years earlier". Which locates the writing of the Metro pome in 1910, when Pound first crossed the Pond, before Gaudier-Brezka died, before Pound worked as a secretary to WBY, before imagism leave alone vorticism was less than a sparkle in the mind's eye. It was first (book) published in *Lustra*, the same year as *Cathay* (which bloody obviously drew on the Fenollosa MSS) ... ... there ought to be a Guinness Award for Catastrophic Textual Fuck-Ups. Pound wasn't the worst -- for all of me, the prize for +that+ has to be Wyatt's Egerton MS. *** ... closely followed if not preceeded by Auden's Revisions -- consider the Amazing Vanishing Dildo in "In Praise of Limestone" Robin (*** Sorry, take that back -- as Renaissance textual chaos goes, the Blage MS *has* to be the friggin limit. R2.) From marcus Thu Jan 1 10:34:24 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:34:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF3F7B0.1048.18F010@localhost> > > The class-case of a Pound haiku is (which it isn't, though it's > > still a bloody good poem) is "In a Station of the Metro". On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. Does this mean, Bob, that your judgment and your judgment alone is what determines what category something fits into in your taxonomy? Do you see how that is SUBJECTIVE and not objective at all? From marcus Thu Jan 1 10:34:23 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:34:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" In-Reply-To: <0c7101c3cfd7$7ffc8640$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF3F7AF.22519.18ECA8@localhost> On 31 Dec 2003 at 14:51, Bob Grumman wrote: > It's stupid because ridiculously false. It's also tedious. > --Bob G. But this is a claim that poetry, in your view, is smart, true, and interesting. I suppose you realize that that means that not a single mathemaku every written is poetry? After all, mathemaku is stupid, ridiculously false on the face of it (Enjglish has a perfectly good grammar and syntax already; mathematecal operands do nothing to improve it), and extremely tedious. From marcus Thu Jan 1 10:34:24 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 10:34:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Some December followups In-Reply-To: References: <3FF28C29.28753.4ABA7A@localhost> Message-ID: <3FF3F7B0.19199.18EDCB@localhost> On 31 Dec 2003 at 13:39, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Hmm, well, faux-reasoner that I am,<< This, too, is wrong; just because one commits a bit of faux reasoning doesn't make one a faux reasoner, any more than being wrong about a bit of addition makes one a wrong person, for example. The whole point is to object to the faux reasonING without calling the other person a faux reasonER. > I thought I might compare one set > of skills to another.<< And I thought I might point out why the comparison was inappropriate. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 10:42:44 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:42:44 -0000 Subject: B/C -- Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> <00db01c3d079$f1d58b70$60def63f@Helen> Message-ID: <005401c3d07d$e63cf5b0$9b188051@MyPC> Apologies -- front-channel as i can't seem to reverse-engineer Helen Rugguire's email address. {It's a slow day in hell, which goes back to when a lady-dressed-in-valves tried to zap me with 10,000 volts, which as then was Strathclyde Institute of Technology ... I really should have learned the lesson, steer clear of computers. glum R.} Helen: I think Sam Gwynn and I are both working from a secondary-source. As far as I know, the "original" 20/100 line text of The Metro isn't extant -- if it ever existed. << I'd like to see the original if you have access ... can you scan it in? >> K. Will do. Anon. Well, at least Pound's dubious 1913 "explanation" of how The Metro came to be written. Which believe that if you like. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. From hruggier Thu Jan 1 10:56:03 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 10:56:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" References: <11.1f9709e2.2d2590f0@aol.com> Message-ID: <017d01c3d07f$c2c48970$60def63f@Helen> Thanks. Perfect! h ----- Original Message ----- From: Thom424 at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound & "Metro" From materials I've been gathering for a course I'll be teaching this spring, I just happen to have this at hand: ?How I Began?. *T.P.?s Weekly*, 6 June, 1913, p. 707. Pound?s description of how he arrived at "In a Station of the Metro" is well-known from his ?Vorticism? essay, but the discussion here precedes that work by fifteen months. He describes the scene in the Metro and his inability to capture it properly until ?only the other night, wondering how I should tell the adventure, it struck me that in Japan where a work of art is not estimated by its acreage and where sixteen syllables [sic] are counted enough for a poem if you arrange and punctuate them properly, one might make a very little poem which would be translated about as follows:?The apparition of these faces in the crowd; / Petals on a wet, black bough?And there, or in some other very old, very quiet civilisation, some one else might understand the significance.? Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 11:22:37 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:22:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d0.16d1a7ea.2d21eb2d@aol.com> <003a01c3cefc$0aa790a0$da089942@Helen> <004101c3cfcc$514a7ce0$ead38051@MyPC> <0ce001c3cfda$ae3b7c20$57efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b101c3cfef$1b981170$ead38051@MyPC> <008f01c3d00e$3fe556e0$81efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002401c3d01b$6039a1f0$5f828051@MyPC> <00cb01c3d05e$ded43be0$26efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000b01c3d065$d994ae60$e8728051@MyPC> Message-ID: <003d01c3d083$78db3170$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > The image of the petal is an image of spring. > > Um ... a dubious generalisation that. My impression of haiku is that many season references are vague. Except that Japanese haijin (haikuists) have a list that specifies what particular season many given words designate. Seems to me a petal would connect more to spring than any other season. Wetness suggests April, at least for most Americans and--I think--Europeans. > > I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > > thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > > people as leaving it. > > Actually, this may be the crunch of our disagreement. Sure, the Metro that > Pound is referring to is a French subway. (Underground? I can never > remember how the terminology plays in the US. Here, the underground is what > trains run in. Under. [What Pound was referencing.] And a subway is what > people use to walk under the road.) > > But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > windows as the train sped along in the dark. > > Hm ... This is one of my all-time favorites and kinda pivotal to an important strand of my take on contemporary poetry--haiku/imagism/minimalism/visual poetry, so I've written about it and thought about it a lot. Yet I'm shocked to see how unreflectingly I imagined the people as emerging from a subway station. Perhaps I can find some critic I read to blame for this. Anyway, I would now say that the poem can be taken anywhere its words allow--that is, to both your pallid faces down in the station and my (Prettier!) rich-hued faces emerging from the station. Yours works better since the title has "In." I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where most of the time people are moving. > Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > copy to hand. It would only show what the poem meant to Pound. > (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) I'm finding all this very interesting. So, any facts would be welcome. Maybe I could add something about the punctuation--it was originally published, I'm pretty sure, with big spaces here and there, so both lines were the same length, so it was to some degree visual. > Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > edit her deceased husband's notes. > > Robin That last I didn't know, and is very interesting. One last question, can anyone tell me if there's any objective way to determine if it's propaganda or poetry? --Bob G. From halvard Thu Jan 1 11:24:30 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:24:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <163.2a3229d2.2d258914@cs.com> Message-ID: I've always liked the notion that Pound took this-- Petals on a wet black bough and pumped it up. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the windows as the train sped along in the dark. Hm ... Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a copy to hand. (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to edit her deceased husband's notes. Robin Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the next train to arrive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 1 11:32:26 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:32:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <003d01c3d083$78db3170$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where { most of the time people are moving. Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving on. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 11:42:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:42:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <3FF3F7B0.1048.18F010@localhost> Message-ID: <006301c3d086$2e626020$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > The class-case of a Pound haiku is (which it isn't, though it's > > > still a bloody good poem) is "In a Station of the Metro". > > On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > Does this mean, Bob, that your judgment and your judgment alone is > what determines what category something fits into in your taxonomy? I have to say that whenever I write something like the above, I think of you, Marcus. No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories. Another factor is that there will always be rival taxonomies in any field. For instance, just as there are many people who think a text must contain rhymes to be considered a poem, there are people who think a text must have 17 syllables to be considered a haiku. My judgement is never the deciding factor any more than one biologist's is in his field. Even if I want it understood (as it would be for a non-verosopath) that my placement of something would be in MY system. I merely want my view considered. > Do you see how that is SUBJECTIVE and not objective at all? Not objective AT ALL? So Robin and I are discussing a truck, maybe? --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 11:50:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 11:50:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" References: <3FF3F7AF.22519.18ECA8@localhost> Message-ID: <006f01c3d087$5194bb50$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > It's stupid because ridiculously false. It's also tedious. > > --Bob G. > > But this is a claim that poetry, in your view, is smart, true, and > interesting. No, Marcus. I made two claims: (1) the text is stupid, and (2) it is not a poem (according to my definition of poetry). You tend to conflate claims in this way a great deal, which is moronic, although that doesn't make you a moron. >I suppose you realize that that means that not a single > mathemaku every written is poetry? After all, mathemaku is stupid, > ridiculously false on the face of it (English has a perfectly good > grammar and syntax already; mathematical operands do nothing to > improve it), All the above is irrelevant but the last is wrong--mathematical operands improve English by increasing the way things can be said, and variety is objectively a virtue in the arts. > and extremely tedious. Not all math, just such mathematical expressions as "1 + 1 is unequal to 3," repeated in different ways such as "the sum of two ones is not three." --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 12:06:05 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1c3.1389bcce.2d258774@cs.com> Message-ID: <00e801c3d089$8b85bb00$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the people as leaving it. --Bob G. A Metro station is underground, not above it. The poem is set "in" a station. Just to be argumentative, I would suggest that the stairs out of a subway station are in it. Hovwever, I'm afraid I'll have to drop my interpretation because the petals are ON a bough. The narrator is moving into the crowd, I would presume, but the faces must be stable. This bothers me, because it makes the poem less Persephoneac. I guess I'd say that at the archetypal level, the narrator is discovering the spring within Hades just before it emerges. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 12:10:57 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:10:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: Message-ID: <011701c3d08a$393206f0$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in > { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where > { most of the time people are moving. > > Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're > standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals > temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving > on. > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. Yes, the "temporariness" is there, another thing I didn't pick up on. Thank you, Hal. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 12:18:29 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:18:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough References: <200401011421.i01EL31G018483@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <012a01c3d08b$46d03e70$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Hey, guess what--new-poetry already has a good exchange going, with the emphasis on "exchange," and the new year isn't yet a day-old! I'm expanding a good deal due to posts like the following. Warning: I'm going to plagiarize ALL OF YOU PEOPLE! --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 9:47 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough > (In Florida, alligator eyes binocularscope on the limpid skim. No > library to hand.) > > Misquoted: > ---------------------------------------- > The apparition of those faces in a crowd > Petals on a wet black bough. > ---------------------------------------- > > The train rolls to a halt. > Upon the sodden platform, the classic Chinese ink painting materializes: > A single black bough, no twigs, white petals made of rice paper whiteness. > How millions of times was it painted? Is painted, today (1/1/04)? > > It's not about the season, per se, it's come from (and this is remembered): > > The Undifferentiated Aesthetic Continuum. > > We don't know if Spring, in actuality, was happening; but it will > happen. You can unroll a scroll of Springtime art by Hiroshige > anytime of the year/life. > > EP "painted" this classic subject in quick deft strokes juxted by > 20th century technological vocabulary. > > Thus, the iamb and inherited vocabularies broken. An early order of > business if EP was to reinvent how to write. > > [And Techne makes a Quantum Leap. Poetry would not be written, > again, quite as it had been, contra to some opionator I've stumbled > over, who doesn't want such leaps made because he can't make them so > then he'll just say they don't happen. How the imagination could > direct the mind evolved.] > > Square Dollar Press was the first publisher of the work on the ideogram. > > How Pound translated the ideogram into English versus how classic > Chinese poets writing in English today, like Yun Wang, would be a > worthwhile inquiry. It doesn't seem that the compliment is returned, > i.e., English doesn't change the poetics of Chinese; Chinese is like > a useful word virus changed by English. > > The introduction of the Ideogram is for EP as profound an > introduction of a mind tool as was the syllogistical reasoning that > informed sonateering. Another one would be the CuTuP. > > [IMHO, of course. This is my creative misreading.] > > R - - - Lion > > > > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Helen Ruggieri) > > 2. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Robin Hamilton) > > 3. Re: Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 4. Re: Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 5. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 6. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Bob Grumman) > > 7. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Robin Hamilton) > > 8. Happy New Year! (Halvard Johnson) > > 9. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Bob Grumman) > > 10. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Robin Hamilton) > > 11. "New Year" (Halvard Johnson) > > 12. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 13. Re: YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 1 > >From: "Helen Ruggieri" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:31:44 -0500 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >What he did catch was the image - and worse - that moment of spontaneous > >composition (translated by Ginsbery - see it - say it) > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 1:31 PM > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > > > > > >> From: "Helen Ruggieri" > >> > >> > Mary McNeill Fenolossa was married to Ernest Fenolossa (a Harvard > >scholar > >> > who went to Japan to teach and collected lots of art which I believe is > >in > >> > the Boston Museum of Fine Arts) and she is the one who gave Ezra Pound > >her > >> > husband's papers (haiku in the process of becoming) to work on > > > translations > > > > of Chinese and Japanese poetry. Pound went on to invent imagism mostly > > > > because of his introduction to the Japanese papers of Fenollosa. > > > > > > Thanks for this, Helen -- I was in the process of constructing a > >> particularly virulent segue, when I caught your temperate post. > >> > >> For the record, the text that Mary MF passed on to Pound was (what ended > >up > >> as, published by New Directions) +The Chinese Written Character As A > >Medium > >> For Poetry+. > >> > >> {Also, and i suppose i really shouldn't digress, the friggin' Noh plays > >that > >> Ole Ez translated while he was working as William Butler Yeats's > >secretoory > >> in the early years of the 20thC. ) > >> > >> Among several distinct ironies is that Fenelossa was a friggin' scholar of > >> +Japanese+ *painting*, not Chinese literature -- Bernard Karlgren was > >prolly > >> the best of the Western scholars who dealt with the ideogram business at > >> that point of time. > >> > >> ... and that's even before we get to Who Is The Chinese Translator -- > >Pound > >> or Waley? > >> > >> Imagism, Hilda? > >> > >> Angels weep territory. > >> > >> :-( > >> > >> R. > >> > >> (Actually, I think you over-simplify the relation between haiku, > >Fenellosa, > >> and Pound. > >> > >> The class-case of a Pound haiku is (which it isn't, though it's still a > >> bloody good poem) is "In a Station of the Metro". > >> > >> The one totally strict Pound haiku (seasonal reference) -- "The Jewel > >> Stair's Grievance" -- Ezra wrote +before+ he got his claws on the > >Fenellosa > >> MS. > >> > >> > >> > >> R2. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 2 > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:40:35 -0000 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> "petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal? > >> > >> --Bob G. > > > >... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian > >commuters were lighted by electrolamps. > > > >It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > > > >R. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 3 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:00:25 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_19f.1f042dc1.2d24bd19_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 12/31/2003 2:09:29 PM Central Standard Time, > >cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > >> > >> Rachel I'm glad to see you're still working on Dick.... > >> Interesting that Sam equates him to Richard III, > >> to me your treatment renders him more like Richard II > >> (mixed with Altman's Secret Honor).... > >> > >> New Year to you > >> > >> Chris > >I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us now by > >Shakespeare. Jimmy Carter was Richard II. > > > >Has everyone seen "Looking for Richard," by the way? A very interesting > >film! > > > >--part1_19f.1f042dc1.2d24bd19_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 12/31/2003= > > 2:09:29 PM Central Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: >NT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S= > >IZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >Rachel I'm glad to see you're still working on Dick....
> >Interesting that Sam equates him to Richard III,
> >to me your treatment renders him more like Richard II
> >(mixed with Altman's Secret Honor)....
> >
> >New Year to you
> >
> >Chris

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us= > > now by Shakespeare.  Jimmy Carter was Richard II.
> >
> >Has everyone seen "Looking for Richard," by the way?  A very interestin= > >g film! > > > >--part1_19f.1f042dc1.2d24bd19_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 4 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:04:32 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. (was tinsel fatigue) > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_197.2424ea47.2d24be10_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 12/31/2003 1:08:46 PM Central Standard Time, > >rloden at concentric.net writes: > >> Sam, Nixon at Pat's funeral stays with me too. One of the most amazing > >> things I have ever seen on film. His face literally falls apart. It's > >> terrifying and strangely beautiful. > >> > >> Thanks for kind words on the poems. Unfortunately I am still writing > >> them, since Dick persists in thinking that he has business in these > >> parts. > >> > >> Rachel > > > >Well, why not? Richard III is still news too, if google is any guide. > > > >--part1_197.2424ea47.2d24be10_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 12/31/2003= > > 1:08:46 PM Central Standard Time, rloden at concentric.net writes: >T COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SI= > >ZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Sam, Nixon at Pat's funeral sta= > >ys with me too. One of the most amazing
> >things I have ever seen on film. His face literally falls apart. It's
> >terrifying and strangely beautiful.
> >
> >Thanks for kind words on the poems. Unfortunately I am still writing
> >them, since Dick persists in thinking that he has business in these
> >parts.
> >
> >Rachel

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">
> >Well, why not?  Richard III is still news too, if google is any guide.<= > >/FONT> > > > >--part1_197.2424ea47.2d24be10_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 5 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:04:48 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_4b.3869efcc.2d24be20_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 12/31/2003 4:41:01 PM Central Standard Time, > >robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > >> > >> >"petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal? > >> > > >> >--Bob G. > >> > >> ... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian > >> commuters were lighted by electrolamps. > >> > >> It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > >> R. > >What about? > >Slippeth bus and sloppeth us. > >Lhude sing goddamn! > > > >--part1_4b.3869efcc.2d24be20_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 12/31/2003= > > 4:41:01 PM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: >FONT> >fffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><= > >BR> > >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >>"petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal?
> >>
> >>--Bob G.
> >
> >... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian >R> > >commuters were lighted by electrolamps.
> >
> >It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland.
> >
> >R.

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">What about?
> >Slippeth bus and sloppeth us.
> >Lhude sing goddamn! > > > >--part1_4b.3869efcc.2d24be20_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 6 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 21:23:30 -0500 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> > "petals on a wet black bough" isn't seasonal? > >> > > >> > --Bob G. > >> > >> ... actually not, Bob, given that the palid upturned faces of the Parisian > >> commuters were lighted by electrolamps. > > > >So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > >regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > >stated or implied). > > > >> It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > >> R. > > > >Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > >from. > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 7 > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 03:57:28 -0000 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > >> regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > >> stated or implied). > > > >Frankly, Bob, I just don't get this. > > > >What is it about the poem that locates it in spring? > > > >April may be the cruelest month breeding lilacs out of a dead land (though > >for terminal hell give me "Childe Roland" any day) but "In a Station of the > >Metro"? > > > >I think you're confusing this with "The Jewel Stair's Grievance", which > >actually +does+ have a seasonal (spring) reference. > > > >> > It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > > >> > R. > >> > >> Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > >> from. > > > >That hell is other people is *so* sixties, regardless of the season. > > > >JPS > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 8 > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: "New-Poetry" > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:29:00 -0500 > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Here in NYC, the New Year is 25 minutes old. > > > >Happy New Year, everyone. > > > >Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >The Sonnet Project: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 9 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 07:00:37 -0500 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> > So what (if true)? I asked about the petals. The poem is about spring, > >> > regardless of what season the people in the station are in (and it's not > >> > stated or implied). > >> > >> Frankly, Bob, I just don't get this. > >> > >> What is it about the poem that locates it in spring? > >> > >> April may be the cruelest month breeding lilacs out of a dead land (though > >> for terminal hell give me "Childe Roland" any day) but "In a Station of > >the > >> Metro"? > > > >The image of the petal is an image of spring. The faces are equated with > >it, which makes them spring. It seems to me that any word in a haiku that > >identifies what season it is about is a season word, and this one is about > >spring, the discovery of spring in the faces in the crowd. > > > >> I think you're confusing this with "The Jewel Stair's Grievance", which > >> actually +does+ have a seasonal (spring) reference. > >> > >> > > It's a long slow season in hell when it snows in Metroland. > >> > > > >> > > R. > >> > > >> > Sorry, no follow. Any hell is what the people are emerging into spring > >> > from. > >> > >> That hell is other people is *so* sixties, regardless of the season. > > > >I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > >thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > >people as leaving it. > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 10 > >From: "Robin Hamilton" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:50:35 -0000 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> The image of the petal is an image of spring. > > > >Um ... a dubious generalisation that. > > > >> I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > >> thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > >> people as leaving it. > > > >Actually, this may be the crunch of our disagreement. Sure, the Metro that > >Pound is referring to is a French subway. (Underground? I can never > >remember how the terminology plays in the US. Here, the underground is what > >trains run in. Under. [What Pound was referencing.] And a subway is what > >people use to walk under the road.) > > > >But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > >white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > >windows as the train sped along in the dark. > > > >Hm ... > > > >Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > >Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > >copy to hand. > > > >(Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > >+A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > >this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > >is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) > > > >Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > >it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > >edit her deceased husband's notes. > > > >Robin > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 11 > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: "New-Poetry" > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 08:15:59 -0500 > >Subject: [New-Poetry] "New Year" > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >NEW YEAR > > > >Cardinals fly up > >from the edge of the near > >field, another > >year's luck. > > > >The haiku poet gives > >us a morning gift: > > > > Starry night: > > she squeezes in between > > her husband and her ex > > > >A road, a fence, a field. > > > >A table on which a book > >lies open: History > >of the Great American > >Fortunes by Gustavus Myers. > > > >A glimpse out the window > >of gray and white > >cat. I open the door > >and in it comes. > > > >This is the first day, > >unlike any other. > > > > for Lynda > > > > > >Lynda and I met at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts back in the late > >80s, got engaged there the next year, and have been back a number of times > >since. VCCA is an arts colony about eleven miles north of Lynchburg and > >the James River, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. We owe the place a lot. > > > >The poem above comes from one of our first joint residencies there, and the > >haiku poet was Dee Everts, who still lives and works here in NYC, I believe. > >The association of sighting cardinals with New Year's luck began, as far as > >I know, with Chicago painter Tony Phillips and the late Jerry Badanes, > >who would wander the premises and nearby roads until they'd seen their > >New Year's cardinal. One year this took them nearly all day. > > > >Hal "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." > > > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >The Sonnet Project: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 12 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:23:48 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_1c3.1389bcce.2d258774_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, > >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> > >> I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I > >> thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the > >> people as leaving it. > >> > >> --Bob G. > >A Metro station is underground, not above it. The poem is set "in" a > >station. > > > >--part1_1c3.1389bcce.2d258774_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/1/2004 6= > >:02:27 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: >NT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" S= > >IZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >I meant the underground I thought the people were emerging from, because I >R> > >thought the Metro was a subway station--and for some reason I think of the >R> > >people as leaving it.
> >
> >--Bob G.

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">A Metro station is underground, not above it.  The poem is set "= > >in" a station. > > > >--part1_1c3.1389bcce.2d258774_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 13 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:30:44 EST > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_163.2a3229d2.2d258914_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, > >robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > >> > >> But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous > >> white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the > >> windows as the train sped along in the dark. > >> > >> Hm ... > >> > >> Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before > >> Pound chopped it back? Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone has a > >> copy to hand. > >> > >> (Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's > >> +A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103. A bit long to type-out, and frankly at > >> this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it. But if anyone (Bob?) > >> is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.) > >> > >> Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". And > >> it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to > >> edit her deceased husband's notes. > >> > >> Robin > >> > > > >Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after > >another. Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to 20, then to "the > >single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all. I don't > >think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just people waiting for the > >next train to arrive. > > > >--part1_163.2a3229d2.2d258914_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/1/2004 6= > >:50:58 AM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: >NT> >fff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> >> > >
>: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> >But I'd always taken this as an image of faces *in* the tube, the vacuous >> > >white faces of the Metro passengers upturned and highlighted against the
> >windows as the train sped along in the dark.
> >
> >Hm ...
> >
> >Isn't there an earlier version of the poem that runs to 20 lines, before
> >Pound chopped it back?  Mibee this would clarify the issue, if anyone h= > >as a
> >copy to hand.
> >
> >(Actually, I stirred my bones and found where I got this from -- Brooker's >R> > >+A Student's Guide+, pp 102-103.  A bit long to type-out, and frankly a= > >t
> >this time of the New Year, I can't be arsed to OCR it.  But if anyone (= > >Bob?)
> >is interested, B/C me and I'll get my act together on it.)
> >
> >Oh, one snibit -- Pound describes the poem as a "hokku-like sentence". = > > And
> >it was this specific poem that spurred Mary Fenollosa into getting Pound to<= > >BR> > >edit her deceased husband's notes.
> >
> >Robin
> >

> > >style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= > >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= > >=3D"0">
> >Pound said that he was in the Metro station and saw one beautiful face after= > > another.  Then he wrote a 100 line poem, later reduced it to > >20, then=20= > >to "the single hokku-like sentence," which actually isn't a sentence at all.= > >  I don't think he's describing people in cars rushing by--just > >people=20= > >waiting for the next train to arrive. > > > >--part1_163.2a3229d2.2d258914_boundary-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 12:44:20 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:44:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <18e.243373ed.2d25b674@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 10:36:05 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in > { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, > where > { most of the time people are moving. > > Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're > standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals > temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving > on. > > Hal This is very literal, Hal. Don't you read "petals" as synecdoche for "blossoms"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 12:46:02 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:46:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <83.26662b9.2d25b6da@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 11:07:18 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > The narrator is moving into the crowd, I would presume, but the faces must > be stable. This bothers me, because it makes the poem less Persephoneac. I > guess I'd say that at the archetypal level, the narrator is discovering the > spring within Hades just before it emerges. > > --Bob G. > I think he said he had just stepped off the Metro car when he saw the faces. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 13:09:42 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:09:42 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough References: <200401011421.i01EL31G018483@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <007701c3d092$6dffa920$9b188051@MyPC> > EP "painted" this classic subject in quick deft strokes juxted by > 20th century technological vocabulary. No he freakin *didn't*, Richard -- about the one secure thing you can say about The Metro is that Pound wrote the pome well before he even tangentially got involved with either Chinese/Japanese painting or calligraphy. Please check your dates before leaving the convenience. R. From robin.hamilton2 Thu Jan 1 13:25:42 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:25:42 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <3FF3F7B0.1048.18F010@localhost> <006301c3d086$2e626020$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009401c3d094$aa76b770$9b188051@MyPC> Bob: << people will argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories. >> Hard cases make bad law -- isn't this a Renaissance cliche that goes back to Blackstone? Actually, if you think about it, the bloody idiom only makes even the *remotest* kind of sense in terms of UK law rather than the Code Napoleon. Or that, ho hum ... R. From mandolin Thu Jan 1 13:32:41 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:32:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jon Corelis at PoemHunter Message-ID: Don't know if other list-members get the Poem of the Day email from PoemHunter.com, but today it's Jon's translation of Sappho's "On What is Best." Nice way to start the year. From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 13:40:46 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:40:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <83.26662b9.2d25b6da@cs.com> Message-ID: <019b01c3d096$c553c860$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In a message dated 1/1/2004 11:07:18 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: The narrator is moving into the crowd, I would presume, but the faces must be stable. This bothers me, because it makes the poem less Persephoneac. I guess I'd say that at the archetypal level, the narrator is discovering the spring within Hades just before it emerges. --Bob G. I think he said he had just stepped off the Metro car when he saw the faces. Okay, Sam, make it "the narrator can be discovering the spring in Hades for the reader sensitive to archetypality in poems, even if not necessarily for himself." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 1 13:51:55 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 13:51:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <18e.243373ed.2d25b674@cs.com> Message-ID: To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. Hal { I guess I have to fine-tune my take to "faces in { the process of emerging," which fits my own experience of subways, where { most of the time people are moving. Yes, *most* of the time, but not always--as when they're standing on the platform waiting for a train, like petals temporarily adhering to a wet, black bough before moving on. Hal This is very literal, Hal. Don't you read "petals" as synecdoche for "blossoms"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 14:42:15 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:42:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <35.41f302ab.2d25d217@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:56:06 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan > in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals > (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're > wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes > take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, > a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- > gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- > fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy > sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. > > So, color me literal, Sam. > I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 14:42:44 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:42:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: Message-ID: <01df01c3d09f$6d9d2ae0$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. Hal Plus, faces are much more like petals than like blossoms, for me. This is very literal, Hal. Don't you read "petals" as synecdoche for "blossoms"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 1 15:10:59 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:10:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <35.41f302ab.2d25d217@cs.com> Message-ID: Stretching's good, Sam. Drifting petals couple well with those drifting ghost-like faces in the Metro (apparitional?). Both paused for a moment between here and wherever. Hal To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 17:28:11 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 17:28:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: Message-ID: <003d01c3d0b6$8a89fc70$60efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Stretching's good, Sam. Drifting petals couple well with those drifting ghost-like faces in the Metro (apparitional?). Both paused for a moment between here and wherever. Hal Plus, the petals are ON the branch not OF the branch.--Bob G. To tell you the truth, I don't, Sam. But then I've been in Japan in the springtime, where cherry blossoms quickly become petals (sometimes even stuck to black boughs--black because they're wet with rain), moving on to wherever gravity and spring breezes take them. No synecdoche (aka Schenectady) at all, but, to me, a very precise image--related to all sorts of other here-today- gone-in-just-a-minute beauties the Japanese are so found of-- fireworks, fireflies in the spring, glimpses of moon in a cloudy sky, and, yes, even sumo matches. So, color me literal, Sam. I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joncpoetics Thu Jan 1 17:32:00 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:32:00 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jon Corelis at PoemHunter Message-ID: Thanks for noticing that. In fact, I'm not signed up for the poem of the day there, so I didn't even know myself that one of mine had been selected. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From anny.ballardini Thu Jan 1 17:37:38 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:37:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jon Corelis at PoemHunter References: Message-ID: <003801c3d0b7$dc4974e0$c8607550@anny> And an excellent choice, I'd say. Anny Ballardini From: "Jon Corelis" To: > Thanks for noticing that. In fact, I'm not signed up for the poem of the > day there, so I didn't even know myself that one of mine had been selected. > > ================================================== > > Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics > > ================================================== > > _________________________________________________________________ > Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wjbat Thu Jan 1 19:00:06 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:00:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <35.41f302ab.2d25d217@cs.com> Message-ID: <9F6251EE-3CB6-11D8-8D03-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Thursday, January 1, 2004, at 02:42 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan.? If I > read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of > blossoms.? Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. I haven't been to Japan, Sam-roshi, but I've always, since I was 12 and saw it for the first time, read that line as Hal does. Blossoms are too complicated for that sweet austere vision. One petal at a time. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 912 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Jan 1 19:45:32 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 19:45:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <3a.42f6c974.2d26192c@cs.com> In a message dated 1/1/2004 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > > I haven't been to Japan, Sam-roshi, but I've always, since I was 12 and > saw it for the first time, read that line as Hal does. Blossoms are > too complicated for that sweet austere vision. One petal at a time. > > Wendy This was a guy who was studying, as well as Asian poetry, Yeats, for whom metonymy/synecdoche are prime tropes. So instead of the simple image of blossoms on a branch you want sticky petals on a Velcro bough? Still, here's what Ez sez: "The Japanese have had the sense of exploration. They have understood the beauty of this sort of knowing. A Chinaman said long ago that if a man can?t say what he has to say in twelve lines he had better keep quiet. The Japanese have evolved the still shorter form of the hokku. 'The fallen blossom flies back to its branch: A butterfly.'" So mebbe you're right after all. Simple Sammy-san Who Stands Corrected -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Jan 1 21:10:47 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:10:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <9F6251EE-3CB6-11D8-8D03-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <013301c3d0d5$a336e0c0$60efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Is it just because the Pound poem is one of my favorites or are people really making great observations? Yes, one at a time! --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wendy Battin To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS On Thursday, January 1, 2004, at 02:42 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: I too can be literal, having, like Ol' Ez, never been in Japan. If I read "petals on a wet black bough," I just think of a branch full of blossoms. Your reading seems a bit of a stretch to me, Halvard-san. I haven't been to Japan, Sam-roshi, but I've always, since I was 12 and saw it for the first time, read that line as Hal does. Blossoms are too complicated for that sweet austere vision. One petal at a time. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope Thu Jan 1 11:06:40 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:06:40 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough In-Reply-To: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: As per usual, you argue within your own parameter. I don't argue out of ego. Read the post entire: It's a creative misreading, but an extremely useful one. So, "he" freakin did, even if that wasn't his ostensible experienced intention. What you want to do is get an "academical" fix. How do you really know know what Pound saw and when he saw it? You imply that Pound could not possibly have known at all at any level whatsoever about classic Chinese ink painting. He had a whirligig voracious mind. Notice: you don't come out and refute the painting idea, what you do is argue that such a critique should be disregarded because you can't make it fit your equations. But your response gives me the opportunity to tweak the original text: At 10:47 AM +0800 1/1/04, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >How Pound translated the ideogram into English versus how classic >Chinese poets writing in English today, like Yun Wang, relate to >Pound's approach would be a worthwhile inquiry. It doesn't seem >that the compliment is returned, i.e., English doesn't change the >poetics of Chinese; Chinese ideogram as per Pound is like a useful >word virus changing the syntax of perception in English. > >The introduction of the Ideogram is for EP as profound an >introduction of a mind tool as was the syllogistical reasoning that >informed sonateering. Another one would be the CuTuP. > >[IMHO, of course. This is my creative misreading.] For me, and Mr. Grumman, it seems, the compositional acts that got Pound to the final haiku are not as pertinent as the implications of what the _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ puts into motion for poets/poems who encounter it. Yun Wang dissed Pound, by the way. Every American attempt to translate the Canon she greeted with contempt. Tell me that what _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ pictures in the mind's eye isn't what the post recognized. All of this leads me to recognize, one more thing: This poem leapt away from the poet's hand and took on a life of its own. The Haiku Archetype appropriated Uncle Ez for its own purposes! R - - - Lion > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "Robin Hamilton" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:09:42 -0000 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> EP "painted" this classic subject in quick deft strokes juxted by >> 20th century technological vocabulary. > >No he freakin *didn't*, Richard -- about the one secure thing you can say >about The Metro is that Pound wrote the pome well before he even >tangentially got involved with either Chinese/Japanese painting or >calligraphy. > >Please check your dates before leaving the convenience. > > > >R. > -- From DICK Fri Jan 2 14:14:22 2004 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 14:14:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. Message-ID: <200401021914.i02JEZF7150134@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:21:03 -0500 ************** >>I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us now by >>Shakespeare. Jimmy Carter was Richard II. >> Sam, your politics is showing. Richard From Rsgwynn1 Fri Jan 2 16:58:12 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 16:58:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tricky D. Message-ID: <84.1fc15545.2d274374@cs.com> In a message dated 1/2/2004 1:15:53 PM Central Standard Time, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes: > ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 09:21:03 -0500 ************** > >>I meant Richard III in terms of his reputation--largely shaped for us now > by > >>Shakespeare. Jimmy Carter was Richard II. > >> > Sam, your politics is showing. > > Richard Richard V, you didn't ask me about G. Bush--Bottom or Ornery V? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Jan 2 17:32:13 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:32:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > What you want to do is get an "academical" fix. How do you really > know know what Pound saw and when he saw it? You imply that Pound > could not possibly have known at all at any level whatsoever about > classic Chinese ink painting. He had a whirligig voracious mind. > Notice: you don't come out and refute the painting idea, what you do > is argue that such a critique should be disregarded because you can't > make it fit your equations. Plus, he may have painted a Chinese picture WITHOUT knowing anything about Chinese painting. > But your response gives me the opportunity to tweak the original text: > > At 10:47 AM +0800 1/1/04, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > >How Pound translated the ideogram into English versus how classic > >Chinese poets writing in English today, like Yun Wang, relate to > >Pound's approach would be a worthwhile inquiry. It doesn't seem > >that the compliment is returned, i.e., English doesn't change the > >poetics of Chinese; Chinese ideogram as per Pound is like a useful > >word virus changing the syntax of perception in English. > > > >The introduction of the Ideogram is for EP as profound an > >introduction of a mind tool as was the syllogistical reasoning that > >informed sonateering. Another one would be the CuTuP. > > > >[IMHO, of course. This is my creative misreading.] > > > For me, and Mr. Grumman, it seems, the compositional acts that got > Pound to the final haiku are not as pertinent as the implications of > what the _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ puts into motion for > poets/poems who encounter it. Absolutely. > Yun Wang dissed Pound, by the way. Every American attempt to > translate the Canon she greeted with contempt. > > Tell me that what _Petals On A Wet Black Bough_ pictures in the > mind's eye isn't what the post recognized. > > All of this leads me to recognize, one more thing: This poem leapt > away from the poet's hand and took on a life of its own. The Haiku > Archetype appropriated Uncle Ez for its own purposes! > > R - - - Lion I'm with you thar. And with what I think is our agreement that the poem's meaning is a cluster of equally valid meanings, none contradicting the others in any significant way. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 3 05:43:43 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:43:43 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005401c3d1e6$752be4c0$b7aa8051@MyPC> Belatedly (having just got my OCR scannner to work again) here's the (full?) text of Pound's comments on the composition of the poem: << In a Station of the Metro Pound gave an account of the composition of this poem in 'How I Began' (T.P.'s Weekly, 6 June 1913, 707) and in the essay 'Vorticism' (Fortnightly Review, 1 Sept. 1914, 465, 467, reprinted in Gaudier-Brzeska, 1916). In the second of these Pound writes: " Three years ago in Paris I got out of a 'metro' train at La Concorde, and saw suddenly a beautiful face, and then another and another, and then a beautiful child's face, and then another beautiful woman, and I tried all day to find words for what this had meant to me, and I could not find any words that seemed to me worthy, or as lovely as that sudden emotion. And that evening, as I went home along Rue Raynouard, I was still trying and I found, suddenly, the expression. I do not mean that I found words, but there came an equation ... not in speech, but in little splotches of colour.... That is to say, my experience in Paris should have gone into paint. If instead of colour I had perceived sound or planes in relation, I should have expressed it in music or in sculpture. Colour was, in that instance, the 'primary pigment': I mean that it was the first adequate equation that came into consciousness. ... The 'one image poem' is a form of superposition, that is to say, it is one idea set on top of another. I found it useful in getting out of the impasse in which I had been left by my metro emotion. I wrote a thirty-line poem, and destroyed it because it was what we call work 'of second intensity'. Six months later I made a poem half that length; a year later I made the following hokku-like sentence: [quotes 'In a Station of the Metro']. ... In a poem of this sort one is trying to record the precise instant when a thing outward and objective transforms itself, or darts into a thing inward and subjective. " >> Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 08:18:35 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:18:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005401c3d1e6$752be4c0$b7aa8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <013301c3d1fc$17e9fc00$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the Pound stuff, Robin. I must have enough data from you and others to write a 120-page book on the poem! I'm in a bit of a daze about it at the moment, though. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro > Belatedly (having just got my OCR scannner to work again) here's the (full?) > text of Pound's comments on the composition of the poem: > > << > In a Station of the Metro > > Pound gave an account of the composition of this poem in 'How I Began' > (T.P.'s Weekly, 6 June 1913, 707) and in the essay 'Vorticism' (Fortnightly > Review, 1 Sept. 1914, 465, 467, reprinted in Gaudier-Brzeska, 1916). In the > second of these Pound writes: > > " > Three years ago in Paris I got out of a 'metro' train at La Concorde, and > saw suddenly a beautiful face, and then another and another, and then a > beautiful child's face, and then another beautiful woman, and I tried all > day to find words for what this had meant to me, and I could not find any > words that seemed to me worthy, or as lovely as that sudden emotion. And > that evening, as I went home along Rue Raynouard, I was still trying and I > found, suddenly, the expression. I do not mean that I found words, but there > came an equation ... not in speech, but in little splotches of colour.... > That is to say, my experience in Paris should have gone into paint. If > instead of colour I had perceived sound or planes in relation, I should have > expressed it in music or in sculpture. Colour was, in that instance, the > 'primary pigment': I mean that it was the first adequate equation that came > into consciousness. > > ... The 'one image poem' is a form of superposition, that is to say, it is > one idea set on top of another. I found it useful in getting out of the > impasse in which I had been left by my metro emotion. I wrote a thirty-lin e > poem, and destroyed it because it was what we call work 'of second > intensity'. Six months later I made a poem half that length; a year later I > made the following hokku-like sentence: [quotes 'In a Station of the > Metro']. > > ... In a poem of this sort one is trying to record the precise instant when > a thing outward and objective transforms itself, or darts into a thing > inward and subjective. > " > >> > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus Sat Jan 3 08:54:11 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:54:11 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <200401031342.i03Dg21G023295@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > I have to say that whenever I write something like the above, I think of > you, Marcus. No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will > argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories.<< But that's neither the issue nor the question, Bob. You claim your taxonomy is "objective" and yet you say such subjective things as "but for me it's a haiku". Well, that "for me" business is just what makes it subjective, you see -- as if someone were to say "Well, it's true for me" of the earth being flat, say. You can BELIEVE what you like, of course, but belief is subjective, not objective. > My judgement is never the deciding factor any more than one biologist's is > in his field. Even if I want it understood (as it would be for a > non-verosopath) that my placement of something would be in MY system. I > merely want my view considered.<< More name-calling -- you just can't resist, can you? But in the midst of your name-calling you once again pronounce just how subjective YOUR system is by your use of "MY system" and "merely want my view considered". Objectiveness requires a scale by which something can be measured, and a tool to measure it with that anyone can use. No one familiar with thermometers claims that they merely want their view considered that it's 90 degrees when everyone else reads the thermometer at 70. They may say, with admitted subjectivity, that they are hot even though the thermometer reads 70, but that is not a claim that the temperature is actually 90. Marcus From marcus Sat Jan 3 09:03:13 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:03:13 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" Message-ID: <200401031351.i03Dp41G023395@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > ... I made two claims: (1) the text is stupid, and (2) it is not a > poem (according to my definition of poetry)....<< But "according to my definition of poetry" is precisely what makes is subjective rather than objective, you see, Bob! And here you are once again reinforcing the subjectivity of your claim while trying implicitly to argue that your claim is objective. It won't wash, Bob -- there is no way reasonably to claim that your subjective view is objective, though it is clear that you think you can use the "The Big Lie" logical fallacy of endless repetition to try to make it so. > which is moronic, although that doesn't make you a > moron. More name-calling -- you're clearly name-calling here because you're still trying to defend your view that anyone who disagrees with your view of anything is attacking you personally. In the context of your misunderstanding about what constitutes civil discussion, your locution here constitutes name- calling. > ... mathematical operands > improve English by increasing the way things can be said, and variety is > objectively a virtue in the arts.< Mathematical operands as English syntax and grammar symbols are merely substitutes for the English syntax and grammar symbols -- they add nothing but a fractious difficulty to the reading of the English words, in the same way "f u cn reed dis y shd i splchk?" adds merely fractious difficulty. The conventions of the language are there for ease of use between the writer and reader; the claim that it is the writer's job to make it hard for the reader to understand makes me put forward this counter-claim: those who do not write clearly are either doing bad writing or are up to mischief. Marcus From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 3 09:05:35 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:05:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <200401031342.i03Dg21G023295@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <005401c3d202$a9320120$a5607550@anny> It is with the utmost satisfaction we can notice that years go by and things remain just the same, :-) Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome If you go with rivers, not roads, the trip takes longer and you weave and see a lot more. (from Houses) Richard Hugo From: > > On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > > I have to say that whenever I write something like the above, I think of > > you, Marcus. No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will > > argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories.<< > > But that's neither the issue nor the question, Bob. You claim your taxonomy > is "objective" and yet you say such subjective things as "but for me it's a > haiku". Well, that "for me" business is just what makes it subjective, you > see -- as if someone were to say "Well, it's true for me" of the earth being > flat, say. You can BELIEVE what you like, of course, but belief is subjective, > not objective. > > > My judgement is never the deciding factor any more than one biologist's is > > in his field. Even if I want it understood (as it would be for a > > non-verosopath) that my placement of something would be in MY system. I > > merely want my view considered.<< > > More name-calling -- you just can't resist, can you? But in the midst of your > name-calling you once again pronounce just how subjective YOUR system is by > your use of "MY system" and "merely want my view considered". Objectiveness > requires a scale by which something can be measured, and a tool to measure it > with that anyone can use. No one familiar with thermometers claims that they > merely want their view considered that it's 90 degrees when everyone else > reads the thermometer at 70. They may say, with admitted subjectivity, that > they are hot even though the thermometer reads 70, but that is not a claim > that the temperature is actually 90. > > Marcus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard Sat Jan 3 09:47:04 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:47:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <005401c3d202$a9320120$a5607550@anny> Message-ID: { It is with the utmost satisfaction we can notice that years go by and things { remain just the same, :-) { { Anny Ballardini We call those the eternal verities, Anny. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From hruggier Sat Jan 3 10:54:37 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:54:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro References: <200401011932.i01JW21G030967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005401c3d1e6$752be4c0$b7aa8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <010501c3d211$e41c4200$8ddef63f@Helen> Thanksk, Robin - worth the wait! h ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound on composing the Metro > Belatedly (having just got my OCR scannner to work again) here's the (full?) > text of Pound's comments on the composition of the poem: > > << > In a Station of the Metro > > Pound gave an account of the composition of this poem in 'How I Began' > (T.P.'s Weekly, 6 June 1913, 707) and in the essay 'Vorticism' (Fortnightly > Review, 1 Sept. 1914, 465, 467, reprinted in Gaudier-Brzeska, 1916). In the > second of these Pound writes: > > " > Three years ago in Paris I got out of a 'metro' train at La Concorde, and > saw suddenly a beautiful face, and then another and another, and then a > beautiful child's face, and then another beautiful woman, and I tried all > day to find words for what this had meant to me, and I could not find any > words that seemed to me worthy, or as lovely as that sudden emotion. And > that evening, as I went home along Rue Raynouard, I was still trying and I > found, suddenly, the expression. I do not mean that I found words, but there > came an equation ... not in speech, but in little splotches of colour.... > That is to say, my experience in Paris should have gone into paint. If > instead of colour I had perceived sound or planes in relation, I should have > expressed it in music or in sculpture. Colour was, in that instance, the > 'primary pigment': I mean that it was the first adequate equation that came > into consciousness. > > ... The 'one image poem' is a form of superposition, that is to say, it is > one idea set on top of another. I found it useful in getting out of the > impasse in which I had been left by my metro emotion. I wrote a thirty-line > poem, and destroyed it because it was what we call work 'of second > intensity'. Six months later I made a poem half that length; a year later I > made the following hokku-like sentence: [quotes 'In a Station of the > Metro']. > > ... In a poem of this sort one is trying to record the precise instant when > a thing outward and objective transforms itself, or darts into a thing > inward and subjective. > " > >> > > Robin Hamilton > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 12:03:33 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:03:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" References: <200401031351.i03Dp41G023395@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <01c901c3d21b$85e3bab0$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > ... I made two claims: (1) the text is stupid, and (2) it is not a > > poem (according to my definition of poetry)....<< > But "according to my definition of poetry" is precisely what makes is > subjective rather than objective, you see, Bob! Note how the verosopath ignores his having been refuted and jumps to another point. He's wrong, to boot. Two people can have objective taxonomies that disagree with each other. I can say all haiku have one to twenty syllables, which is objectively determinable even by your moronic standards. Someone else can use different numbers and be equally objective yet disagree with me. I can say whales are fish because, among other things, they live in water, something that can be objectively determined; someone else can say whales are mammals because they bear living offspring, something also objectively determinable. Two objective taxonomies. > And here you are once again > reinforcing the subjectivity of your claim while trying implicitly to argue > that your claim is objective. Wrong again. I was showing that you misread me. > It won't wash, Bob -- there is no way reasonably > to claim that your subjective view is objective, though it is clear that you > think you can use the "The Big Lie" logical fallacy of endless repetition to > try to make it so. > > which is moronic, although that doesn't make you a > > moron. > > More name-calling -- you're clearly name-calling here You say that describing a person's actions negatively is not name-calling. I guess that's only when you do it. >because you're still > trying to defend your view that anyone who disagrees with your view of > anything is attacking you personally. Do support this view by quoting me claiming anyone other than you was, when disagreeing with me, attacking me personally. I am actually only saying that a person who calls another's actions stupid and thinks his description has nothing to do with the person whose actions he is describing is wrong. > In the context of your misunderstanding > about what constitutes civil discussion, your locution here constitutes name- > calling. What makes you an authority on what civil discussion is? As for me, I have been quite ready to agree that I do not treat you civilly. But I have no real opinion on what civil discussion is; my interests lie elsewhere. The verosopath, however, is obsessed with seeming more civil than those whose views he attempts to sabotage because he knows that civility, by his standards, is the only area he has a chance of outdoing his opponents in. > > ... mathematical operands > > improve English by increasing the way things can be said, and variety is > > objectively a virtue in the arts.< > > Mathematical operands as English syntax and grammar symbols are merely > substitutes for the English syntax and grammar symbols -- they add nothing but > a fractious difficulty to the reading of the English words, in the same way "f > u cn reed dis y shd i splchk?" adds merely fractious difficulty. I can think of no reason since I can read it. I found it more interesting than most of what you write. Fun creed dizzy is there, for instance. You might consider that what is difficult varies, and that that which is too simple can be annoying. >The > conventions of the language are there for ease of use between the writer and > reader; the claim that it is the writer's job to make it hard for the reader > to understand makes me put forward this counter-claim: those who do not write > clearly are either doing bad writing or are up to mischief. Right, adding expressive variety to what one says, which I claim to be a valuable thing to do, is the same as claiming "it is the writer's job to make it hard for the reader to understand." Note how the verosopath hardly ever can resist misleadingly restating what an opponent says--or "really" means. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 12:12:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:12:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <200401031342.i03Dg21G023295@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <01cf01c3d21c$bccfad30$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > More name-calling -- you just can't resist, can you? No more than you can resist misrepresenting me and abusing my thinking and otherwise trying to annoy me into breaking decorum by accurately classifying you. A verosopath's main goal is to do just that because he has no way of otherwise winning, in any sense. > But in the midst of your > name-calling you once again pronounce just how subjective YOUR system is by > your use of "MY system" and "merely want my view considered". Objectiveness > requires a scale by which something can be measured, and a tool to measure it > with that anyone can use. No one familiar with thermometers claims that they > merely want their view considered that it's 90 degrees when everyone else > reads the thermometer at 70. They may say, with admitted subjectivity, that > they are hot even though the thermometer reads 70, but that is not a claim > that the temperature is actually 90. > > Marcus No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will argue over hard cases at the margins of its categories. Just as two scientists with two slightly different instruments might argue quite vehemently with each other about the exact temperature some experimental result has occurred at. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 Sat Jan 3 13:29:13 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:29:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> In a message dated 1/3/2004 7:55:38 AM Central Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 14:41:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:41:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> Message-ID: <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. Pound said it was "like" a haiku. What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL Sat Jan 3 14:54:07 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:54:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS Message-ID: <1d5.17b0c9f3.2d2877df@aol.com> In a message dated 1/3/2004 2:41:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. For me, it's more the way a frog jumps into a pond. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 3 14:59:47 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 19:59:47 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> << >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. Pound said it was "like" a haiku. >> ... "hokku-like sentence". << What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. >> Try this link, Bob. http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=12704 I don't agree with all that Deborah says, but it does at the least suggest that the issue of "What is a haiku?" is even less uncontentious than you imply. Robin From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 15:52:16 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:52:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> Message-ID: <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. > >> > > ... "hokku-like sentence". > > > << > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > >> > > Try this link, Bob. > > http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=12704 > > > I don't agree with all that Deborah says, but it does at the least suggest > that the issue of "What is a haiku?" is even less uncontentious than you > imply. And she didn't even consider MY varied attempts to define it, which have gotten into MODERN HAIKU. Her piece is okay but has few good definitions. "Something in nature deeply felt and keenly expressed" or the like doesn't make it, for me, and most of the "definitions" seemed close to that. One big area of contention is simplicity versus complexity, often particularized as lack of metaphor versus metaphor. I think most of the lasting haiku contain implicit metaphors galore. She's wrong that haiku are the world's smallest literary form, albeit they are the smallest form recognized by the fifty-years-behind. Although a case might be made that the minimalist poems I'm thinking of that are smaller than haiku are a form of haiku. . . . The other famous American poem whose possible haiku-ness people argue over is Williams's wheelbarrow poem. I think of it as a haiku but a special kind of one. It editorializes ("so much depends upon") which is taboo. It's long for a haiku, too. Interesting area. Comes my grant, and I may well try to write a big essay on it. --Bobku From Thom424 Sat Jan 3 16:14:16 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:14:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry: A Magazine of Verse Message-ID: <126.3819651a.2d288aa8@aol.com> I could wait until Monday morning when the library opens once again, but I though someone on this list might be able to help: what poets were listed in the table-of-contents for the first issue of *Poetry* magazine, October, 1912. Thanks, Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sat Jan 3 16:23:27 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:23:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001201c3d23f$d49038e0$24dcf63f@Helen> To get technical - a hokku is not a haiku - a hokku is the first verse of a renga. Looks like a haiku, smells like a haiku, but isn't. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS > > >On 31 Dec 2003 at 15:13, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > > > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. > > >> > > > > ... "hokku-like sentence". > > > > > > << > > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. > > >> > > > > Try this link, Bob. > > > > http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=12704 > > > > > > I don't agree with all that Deborah says, but it does at the least suggest > > that the issue of "What is a haiku?" is even less uncontentious than you > > imply. > > And she didn't even consider MY varied attempts to define it, which have > gotten into MODERN HAIKU. Her piece is okay but has few good definitions. > "Something in nature deeply felt and keenly expressed" or the like doesn't > make it, for me, and most of the "definitions" seemed close to that. > > One big area of contention is simplicity versus complexity, often > particularized as lack of metaphor versus metaphor. I think most of the > lasting haiku contain implicit metaphors galore. > > She's wrong that haiku are the world's smallest literary form, albeit they > are the smallest form recognized by the fifty-years-behind. Although a case > might be made that the minimalist poems I'm thinking of that are smaller > than haiku are a form of haiku. . . . > > The other famous American poem whose possible haiku-ness people argue over > is Williams's wheelbarrow poem. I think of it as a haiku but a special kind > of one. It editorializes ("so much depends upon") which is taboo. It's > long for a haiku, too. > > Interesting area. Comes my grant, and I may well try to write a big essay > on it. > > --Bobku > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From joncpoetics Sat Jan 3 16:27:10 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:27:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked Message-ID: Fucked You're born and you're fucked; and some little shit who's an inch and a half taller than you wants your toy truck and you're fucked; and here comes puberty and, man, talk about fucked... and a thousand luscious nymphs dazzle you from magazine covers and pick your pocket and you're fucked; and you go to college and you major in history you idiot and you're fucked; and you fall out of lock step and you're fucked; and the President is afraid his cock isn't big enough so they hand you a rifle and you're fucked; and a couple of thugs drinking malt liquor on the street corner say let's go see if that guy has any money and you're fucked; and you waste yourself working for nothing but weekends and paydays and one morning you forget to smile at your boss and you're fucked; and the years slam shut behind you and you're fucked; and your wife wants a divorce the house the kids the car and two thirds of your salary forever and you're fucked; and your big ideas end up in a drawer full of cancelled checks and you're fucked; and your doctor says I'm afraid I have some bad news and you're fucked; and they stick you with needles and tubes and people talk in whispers when they come into your room but you know that what they're saying is you're fucked. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Expand your wine savvy ? and get some great new recipes ? at MSN Wine. http://wine.msn.com From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 3 16:39:39 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:39:39 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001201c3d23f$d49038e0$24dcf63f@Helen> Message-ID: <01e101c3d242$177b7ff0$6cb08051@MyPC> > To get technical - a hokku is not a haiku - a hokku is the first verse of a > renga. Looks like a haiku, smells like a haiku, but isn't. Neat, Helen, I hadn't known that. I'd simply assumed Pound couldn't spell "haiku" in 1914. But that suggests that something more complex may be at issue here, over his description of The Metro as "a hokku-like sentence". He wrote it (obviously) before he'd been given Fenollosa's notes, so where was his background coming from? The She-King in the Ancient Books of the East series? Thanks for the observation, anyway. Robin From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 3 16:42:14 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 22:42:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked References: Message-ID: <01da01c3d242$73eea500$a5607550@anny> From: "Jon Corelis" > Fucked > > > You're born and you're fucked; > > and some little shit who's an inch and a half taller than you wants your toy > truck and you're fucked; > > and here comes puberty and, man, talk about fucked... > > and a thousand luscious nymphs dazzle you from magazine covers and pick your > pocket and you're fucked; > > and you go to college and you major in history you idiot and you're fucked; > > and you fall out of lock step and you're fucked; > > and the President is afraid his cock isn't big enough so they hand you a > rifle and you're fucked; > > and a couple of thugs drinking malt liquor on the street corner say let's go > see if that guy has any money and you're fucked; > > and you waste yourself working for nothing but weekends and paydays and one > morning you forget to smile at your boss and you're fucked; > > and the years slam shut behind you and you're fucked; > > and your wife wants a divorce the house the kids the car and two thirds of > your salary forever and you're fucked; > > and your big ideas end up in a drawer full of cancelled checks and you're > fucked; > > and your doctor says I'm afraid I have some bad news and you're fucked; > > and they stick you with needles and tubes and people talk in whispers when > they come into your room but you know that what they're saying is you're > fucked. > > > ================================================== > > Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics > > ================================================== This is a f**ing poem, which does make sense and have its own rhythmic pulse, both logical and, in great lines, in style. Hopefully it is not autobiographical. It reminds me of Al Aronowitz' Schmaikus, since we are broadly talking of haikus, here is another form which might be of interest to Grumman, follow the link: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=36 Anny From bobgrumman Sat Jan 3 17:14:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:14:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked References: <01da01c3d242$73eea500$a5607550@anny> Message-ID: <037b01c3d246$e41a0500$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > This is a f**ing poem, which does make sense and have its own rhythmic > pulse, both logical and, in great lines, in style. Hopefully it is not > autobiographical. It reminds me of Al Aronowitz' Schmaikus, since we are > broadly talking of haikus, here is another form which might be of interest > to Grumman, follow the link: > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories& cid=36 > Well, Anny, I like the name, but to me they're just sophomoric epigrams. --Bob G. From atlas Sat Jan 3 17:43:12 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:43:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS References: <1d5.17b0c9f3.2d2877df@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a201c3d24a$f84cee30$739edf18@atlas> Jeffery Levine wrote: > For me, it's more the way a frog jumps into a pond. I like that. Mike Geary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 3 17:54:35 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:54:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <00a201c3d24a$f84cee30$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: It's all about the ker-plop! Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html Jeffery Levine wrote: > For me, it's more the way a frog jumps into a pond. I like that. Mike Geary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 3 21:27:24 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:27:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?Windows-1252?Q?Poems_by_others:___Tomas_Transtr=F6mer=2C_=22Nocturne=22?= Message-ID: Nocturne I drive through a village at night, houses step forward into the headlamps' stream--they are awake, and we are thirsty. Houses, barns, billboards, driverless vehicles--it is now they clothe themselves with Life.--The population sleeps: some in peaceful sleep, others with strained features as if they were entered in hard training for eternity. They dare not let go of everything even in deepest sleep. They rest like lowered barriers while the mystery rides by. Beyond the village the road runs along between forest trees. And trees trees tramp in silent concord side by side. They have a theatrical look, as if seen by firelight. Every left distinct! They follow me all the way home. I lit down ready for sleep. I see the queerest pictures and signs that crawl themselves behind my eyelids on the dark's wall. In a slot between waking and dream a very large envelope tries in vain to push itself through. --Tomas Transtr?mer tr. May Swenson and Leif Sj?berg fr. *Windows & Stones: Selected Poems* [Pittsburgh: Univ. of Pittsburgh Press, 1972] orig. in *The Half-Made Heaven*, 1962 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From ron.silliman Mon Jan 5 06:55:42 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 06:55:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's blog Message-ID: <000001c3d382$dbaf16c0$6501a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Dickinson ? Niedecker ? Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada?s ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York Defining the line in speech as well as writing Blog less, blog better John Godfrey?s Private Lemonade: the role of syntax in abstraction What the value of prose can bring to the poem Silent rhyme: Marianne Moore & the question of the line Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Whose Marianne Moore? Jena Osman: turning poetry inside out Jena Osman: Memory error theater Disruptive poetry: Jena Osman, Christian B?k et al When the unimaginable suddenly appears obvious ? the intellectual theater of Jena Osman Mary Margaret Sloan on poetry in Chicago http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:17:29 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:17:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Petals On A Wet Black Bough In-Reply-To: <02c701c3d180$45405950$67efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91D99.9046.3517D9@localhost> On 2 Jan 2004 at 17:32, Bob Grumman wrote: > Plus, he may have painted a Chinese picture WITHOUT knowing anything > about Chinese painting.<< LOL! Well THAT explains a lot! It explains how you think you can use "objective" without knowing anything about objectivity! From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:17:28 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:17:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" In-Reply-To: <01c901c3d21b$85e3bab0$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91D98.31016.351684@localhost> On 3 Jan 2004 at 12:03, Bob Grumman wrote: > Note how the verosopath ignores ...<< More name-calling, Bob. Is that really the best you can do? Perhaps you should take some courses in logic and philosophy so you can be persuaded to try to make reasonable arguments instead of putting forward name-calling fallacies. > ... Two people can have objective > taxonomies that disagree with each other. I can say all haiku have > one to twenty syllables, which is objectively determinable ...<< Some addresses on envelopes fit that; does that make them haiku? Is any group of 20 or fewer syllables a haiku? The scale you offer is not objective. > ... even by your moronic standards....<< More name-calling -- here, again, because you strongly hold the view that anyone who disagrees with you has made a personal attack on you, by applying your own views to your writing, it's clear that you intend to make a name-calling attack. > Someone else can use different numbers and be > equally objective yet disagree with me. I can say whales are fish > because, among other things, they live in water, something that can > be objectively determined; someone else can say whales are mammals > because they bear living offspring, something also objectively > determinable. Two objective taxonomies.< Whales are fish for sufficiently broad categories of mammals; the earth is flat for sufficiently wide interpretations of curvature; 2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2. These are all jokes, Bob, and you don't seem to be willing to accept that "objective" is not a matter of sufficiently poetic manifestations of subjectivity. > You say that describing a person's actions negatively is not > name-calling. I guess that's only when you do it.<< Your view that whenever anyone disagrees with you they are calling you names is the context in which you offer your iterations of "describing a person's actions negatively": you are clearly trying to call names without getting caught at it. I, on the other hand, am merely disagreeing with your views, and trying to point out, civilly, where I disagree with them. My stated position is that in order to have a civil discussion we must be willing and able to separate our views from our selves precisely so that attacks on another person's views do NOT constitute an attack on his or her person. > ... I am actually only > saying that a person who calls another's actions stupid and thinks his > description has nothing to do with the person whose actions he is > describing is wrong.<< This is a perfectly adequate generalized statement of your rejection of the principle that civil discussion must hinge upon the willingness of the participants to separate their views from their selves. You are explicitly stating that there is no difference between "That's a stupid view" and "You're stupid", while I am pointing out that there is a significant and important difference between them -- though I don't advocate "stupid" as the adjective of choice. > What makes you an authority on what civil discussion is?<< I ran the TIME Magazine discussion boards online for several years, and promulgated the simple "No name-calling" rule there that applies the 25000-year old tradition of separating one's self from one's views in order to avoid falling into the tar-pit of vituperation instead of walking the road of discussion. What authority makes you think that "That view is bad" and "You're bad" are the same? > I have no real opinion on what civil discussion is ...<< Then perhaps you'd be wise to adhere to the opinions of those who have both more experience in the matter, and who have thought about it quite a bit. > ... The verosopath ...<< More name-calling. Is this really the best you can do? > Right, adding expressive variety to what one says, which I claim to be > a valuable thing to do, is the same as claiming "it is the writer's > job to make it hard for the reader to understand."<< How do you tell the difference, Bob, between "adding expressive variety" and "making it hard for the reader to understand"? You haven't got an objective measure of either one or of the difference -- it's a matter of subjective opinion. The goal is to make a persuasive and reasonable case for your views, not to pretend to a scientific objectivity you neither have nor even have a distant look at. It is precisely your claim that your view is "objective" and that all other views are less than and less worthy than your own because those other views are not "objective" that is so subjective! From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:17:28 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:17:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <003d01c3d083$78db3170$2befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91D98.12701.35153A@localhost> > One last question, can anyone tell me if there's any objective way to > determine if it's propaganda or poetry? > --Bob G. Are you suggesting there is a quantitative scale from propaganda to poetry and a tool by which to measure bits of writing to tell where they fall along that scale? Or are you just playing more subjective games while using the word "objective" wrong? Is it Conjugation we're going to be playing here, Bob? "You're a poet, she's a versifier, he's a lying propagandist"? Marcus From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:24:52 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:24:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <01cf01c3d21c$bccfad30$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF91F54.21031.3BD95D@localhost> On 3 Jan 2004 at 12:12, Bob Grumman wrote: > No more than you can resist misrepresenting me and abusing my > thinking ...< I don't misrepresent you, Bob -- I reveal that you are using "objective" to mean "my subjective view", and "taxonomy" to mean "an agenda to mainstream my avant garde poetry", and the like. I point out that your use of words is very much like double-speak. You seem to think that if you say your view is objective often enough that people will take it to be objective -- but in reality, Bob, that tactic is known as "the big lie", a logical fallacy. > No matter how effective a taxonomy of anything is, people will argue > over hard cases at the margins of its categories. Just as two > scientists with two slightly different instruments might argue quite > vehemently with each other about the exact temperature some > experimental result has occurred at.< But Bob, they don't argue about orders of magnitude! You're trying to say that things are "objective" without any scale whatever, without any tool whatever, by which to measure the thing you propose to measure! You merely claim that the way you'd like to see poetry organized is "objective", that it's a "taxonomy" in a sort of vaguely metaphorical way. Now, that wouldn't be a bad thing if you weren't at the same time trying to claim that your subjective view is really "objective" because you use the word "taxonomy" and repeat your claim to "objectivity" over and over. That's a cargo-cult notion of what science and objectivity is all about, Bob. From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:28:44 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:28:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF9203C.24958.3F6514@localhost> Bob Grumman: > >What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. RS Gwynn: > Pound said it was "like" a haiku. Bob Grumman: > What a haiku is will always be arguable, but for me it's a haiku. No, Bob, if you have an OBJECTIVE SCALE and a tool by which to measure poetry, as you CLAIM you have, then you must be able to say that it's a haku for ANYONE who can understand your scale and use the tool you provide, within a small margin of error, just as anyone can tell the temperature within a small margin of error. That doesn't mean that someone may not subjectively think that 70 degrees F is cold while another person thinks that 70 degrees F is hot; it means that they can agree on the temperature even as they disagree on their subjective experiences of that same temperature. From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:40:45 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:40:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS In-Reply-To: <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF9230D.24456.4A67BD@localhost> > And she didn't even consider MY varied attempts to define > [haiku]...< Are those your OBJECTIVE attempts, there, Bob? LOL! From marcus Mon Jan 5 08:42:42 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:42:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: Fucked In-Reply-To: <037b01c3d246$e41a0500$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF92382.3426.4C2E42@localhost> Bob Grumman: > Well, Anny, I like the name, but to me they're just > sophomoric epigrams. Is that the OBJECTIVE fact, there, Bob? LOL! From halvard Mon Jan 5 11:41:55 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:41:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems, etc., by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Werner Herzog . . ." Message-ID: Actually two things, this morning--first the Lauterbach poem and then an item from the Metropolitan Diary in this morning's NYT. Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 Then this light flipped in the rowboats Then this anchor lifted from petulant water Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man Had taken his crew so far to this island, This wind, to find them and, eventually, To take us there. It was a small city It was the light released, skyward, not Natural and I wondered how many of them Were dead having gone from the frame. It was Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds Forgetting her lines, smiling Despite the feet in the wall, Despite the illusion. It was Another film in the small city where a man Saw the most beautiful woman ever In the ugliest hat. It was a hen trapped in sand. It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say Now that he was able to say it, a young girl Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child Touching the sleeve of a stranger. --Ann Lauterbach fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] from the NYT, 1/5/04 "Dear Diary: I collect and wear Mickey Mouse watches. This past fall, I boarded the train to New York at Metropark, in Woodbridge, N.J. At one of the stops, a boy about 5 entered the train with his mother. As the train was crowded, they sat next to me, the boy on his mother's lap. He noticed my watch, and looked up at my face. He repeatedly glanced at the watch, then at me, as though working out a difficult problem. Finally, with a very puzzled expression on his small face, he tapped me on the arm and said, 'Excuse me, but are you a grown-up?'" --Lollie W. Margolin Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Mon Jan 5 12:32:48 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:32:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" References: <3FF91D98.31016.351684@localhost> Message-ID: <029401c3d3b1$f0b8a250$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 3 Jan 2004 at 12:03, Bob Grumman wrote: > > Note how the verosopath ignores ...<< > > More name-calling, Bob. Is that really the best you can do? Not really. But I don't want to upset James. > > ... Two people can have objective > > taxonomies that disagree with each other. I can say all haiku have > > one to twenty syllables, which is objectively determinable ...<< > > Some addresses on envelopes fit that; does that make them haiku? Yes. If all haiku have from one to twenty syllables, then any text that has from one to twenty syllables is a haiku. --Bob G. From marcus Mon Jan 5 12:46:16 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:46:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Wilson, "The Poem Politic 10: A Note for Future Historians" In-Reply-To: <029401c3d3b1$f0b8a250$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF95C98.4603.12B2E99@localhost> > > Some addresses on envelopes fit that; does that make them haiku? > Yes. If all haiku have from one to twenty syllables, then any text > that has from one to twenty syllables is a haiku. Pfui. From DICK Mon Jan 5 13:15:41 2004 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 04 13:15:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lauterbach poem Message-ID: <200401051815.i05IFq55110466@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:01:03 -0500 ************** How about a little bit of help, Hal? (backchannel if you wish.) What is it about this poem that made you want to post it? A real answer only, please. Richard Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 Then this light flipped in the rowboats Then this anchor lifted from petulant water Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man Had taken his crew so far to this island, This wind, to find them and, eventually, To take us there. It was a small city It was the light released, skyward, not Natural and I wondered how many of them Were dead having gone from the frame. It was Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds Forgetting her lines, smiling Despite the feet in the wall, Despite the illusion. It was Another film in the small city where a man Saw the most beautiful woman ever In the ugliest hat. It was a hen trapped in sand. It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say Now that he was able to say it, a young girl Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child Touching the sleeve of a stranger. --Ann Lauterbach fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] From elemenope Mon Jan 5 01:12:43 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:12:43 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ann Lauterbach, "Werner Herzog"/ Little Boy/Mickey Mouse/Margolis-NYT Letter In-Reply-To: <200401051701.i05H131G011566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401051701.i05H131G011566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: For those who know my own writing on Fieralingua, they will find a sibling poem ("San Francisco Poem") to Lauterbach's. IMHO, a distinction between the two (since they employ the same enigma) is that in mine, the speaker enters the action. I see Lauterbach's poem as a list, well written and original. I published Anne Lauterbach ("Live At The Ear" a cd edited by Charles Bernstein, 1994) and know something about how her imagination works, as well as her ambition. The synchronicity of the Little Boy/Mickey Mouse/Margolis-NYT Letter with "Werner Herzog" makes her poem part of the larger action evoked in the formerly stand alone poem. Synchronicities abound in the Interzone. Thanks for the wit, Mr. Johnson, to seize on the opportunity to post this montage. Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: "New-Poetry" >Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:41:55 -0500 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems, etc., by others: Ann Lauterbach, >"Werner Herzog . . ." >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Actually two things, this morning--first the Lauterbach poem >and then an item from the Metropolitan Diary in this morning's >NYT. > > >Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 > >Then this light flipped in the rowboats >Then this anchor lifted from petulant water >Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, >Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man >Had taken his crew so far to this island, >This wind, to find them and, eventually, >To take us there. > It was a small city >It was > the light released, skyward, not >Natural and I wondered how many of them >Were dead having gone from the frame. > It was >Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, >The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds >Forgetting her lines, smiling >Despite the feet in the wall, >Despite the illusion. > It was >Another film in the small city where a man >Saw the most beautiful woman ever >In the ugliest hat. > It was a hen trapped in sand. >It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say >Now that he was able to say it, a young girl >Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. >It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child >Touching the sleeve of a stranger. > >--Ann Lauterbach > >fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] > > >from the NYT, 1/5/04 > >"Dear Diary: > > I collect and wear Mickey Mouse watches. >This past fall, I boarded the train to New York at >Metropark, in Woodbridge, N.J. > At one of the stops, a boy about 5 entered >the train with his mother. > As the train was crowded, they sat next to >me, the boy on his mother's lap. He noticed my >watch, and looked up at my face. He repeatedly >glanced at the watch, then at me, as though working >out a difficult problem. > Finally, with a very puzzled expression on >his small face, he tapped me on the arm and said, >'Excuse me, but are you a grown-up?'" > > --Lollie W. Margolin > > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >The Sonnet Project: >http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From bobgrumman Mon Jan 5 14:50:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:50:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Notes on Verosopathology References: <18d.2409ad4d.2d2863f9@cs.com> <027e01c3d231$84af3050$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <016701c3d234$23d52750$6cb08051@MyPC> <030c01c3d23b$8b36be70$1fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001201c3d23f$d49038e0$24dcf63f@Helen> <01e101c3d242$177b7ff0$6cb08051@MyPC> Message-ID: <043401c3d3c5$1b7caf00$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> One interesting ploy of the verosopath is to use such ridiculous arguments against an opponent that the number of responses that immediately occur to the opponent will render his mind temporarily non-functional due to overcrowding. For instance, the argument that if a person allows that others may have a different definition of something than his indicates that his definition is not objective. --Bob G. From halvard Mon Jan 5 15:02:04 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:02:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lauterbach poem In-Reply-To: <200401051815.i05IFq55110466@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: I thought you might enjoy it. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html { ***** Reply to your note of: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:01:03 -0500 ************** { How about a little bit of help, Hal? (backchannel if you wish.) { { What is it about this poem that made you want to post it? { { A real answer only, please. { { Richard { { Werner Herzog 68 / Iowa City 88 { { Then this light flipped in the rowboats { Then this anchor lifted from petulant water { Like a stem. Neither chimes nor chills nor vanes, { Wheels wheeling, deadpan, the young man { Had taken his crew so far to this island, { This wind, to find them and, eventually, { To take us there. { It was a small city { It was { the light released, skyward, not { Natural and I wondered how many of them { Were dead having gone from the frame. { It was { Like a wedding of strangers previously arranged, { The bride in her gown of fetid rosebuds { Forgetting her lines, smiling { Despite the feet in the wall, { Despite the illusion. { It was { Another film in the small city where a man { Saw the most beautiful woman ever { In the ugliest hat. { It was a hen trapped in sand. { It was, finally, a young boy not knowing what to say { Now that he was able to say it, a young girl { Singing, twisting up her skirt, her mouth dark. { It was a war nobody had ever heard of, a child { Touching the sleeve of a stranger. { { --Ann Lauterbach { { fr. *Clamor* [New York: Penguin, 1991] { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus Mon Jan 5 15:42:40 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:42:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Notes on Verosopathology In-Reply-To: <043401c3d3c5$1b7caf00$6befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <3FF985F0.2258.1CCAAF1@localhost> On 5 Jan 2004 at 14:50, Bob Grumman wrote: > One interesting ploy of the verosopath ....<< More name-calling. Once again, Bob, can't you make any better case for your views than to name-call those who disagree with you? > is to use such ridiculous > arguments against an opponent that the number of responses that > immediately occur to the opponent will render his mind temporarily > non-functional due to overcrowding.<< Pfui. There's no rush, Bob -- take your time. Do the best you can. It's no thrill, believe me, to point out over and over the same damn flaws. > For instance, the argument that > if a person allows that others may have a different definition of > something than his indicates that his definition is not objective.< The notion of "objective" is what you seem to be determined to mis- use, Bob. If you want to offer an objective evaluation of what something really is, you need a scale and a tool by which to measure on that scale. When you start name-calling about how your personal subjective view is really an objective one you only reveal the weakness of your argument and the paucity of reasons to share your view. Do try to do better, Bob. There's no rush -- take your time. Show me, show us all, what scale you propose to use on which to measure what poetry is; show us the tool you propose to use to make sure that everyone agrees on what a haiku IS, even if they don't agree about whether this or that haiku is GOOD. From Cadaly Mon Jan 5 23:30:32 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:30:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] review of Da3! up! Message-ID: <195.2482d8d7.2d2b93e8@aol.com> Eclectica, Kevin McGowin http://www.eclectica.org/v8n1/review_list.html Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net DaDaDa Salt Publishing, 2003 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Tue Jan 6 09:20:23 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 09:20:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Reagan Dime? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FFA7DD7.6478.859A76@localhost> www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-12-05-reagan-dime_x.htm From kpaul Tue Jan 6 09:28:23 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:28:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Reagan Dime? In-Reply-To: <3FFA7DD7.6478.859A76@localhost> References: <3FFA7DD7.6478.859A76@localhost> Message-ID: <20040106092804.K67199@kpaul.spinweb.net> I heard if you drop it, it trickles down slowly. ;) -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Marcus Bales wrote: > www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-12-05-reagan-dime_x.htm > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Tue Jan 6 11:19:01 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:19:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Carl Rakosi Turns 100 Message-ID: http://www.counterpunch.org/schaefer01032004.html Poet Carl Rakosi Turns 100 By STANDARD SCHAEFER On December 12th, 2003 the Beyond Baroque Literary Center in Venice, California hosted a one-hundredth birthday celebration for poet Carl Rakosi, one of the founding members of the Objectivist School of American poetry. Rakosi was born on November 6, 1903 in Berlin to Hungarian parents. "There were no books in our house," he said, "That didn't bother me because I didn't know I was missing anything, until one day I discovered the public library on the other side of town. The library now became my secret home and my secret vice...." From heather Sun Jan 4 09:51:41 2004 From: heather (HEATHER TAYLOR) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:51:41 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <000801c3d2d2$44ef3b80$340b883e@oemcomputer> can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:38:35 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:38:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <293580-220041610173835768@M2W070.mail2web.com> Barbara Fritchie It's a little wrong: "WHo touches a hair of yon gray head Dies like a dog! March on," he said. Original Message: ----------------- From: HEATHER TAYLOR heather at piping.fsnet.co.uk Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:51:41 -0000 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From atlas Sat Jan 10 12:41:03 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:41:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification References: <000801c3d2d2$44ef3b80$340b883e@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <053301c3d7a0$eb7294c0$739edf18@atlas> John Greenleaf Whittier. 1807-1892 81. Barbara Frietchie UP from the meadows rich with corn, Clear in the cool September morn, The clustered spires of Frederick stand Green-walled by the hills of Maryland. Round about them orchards sweep, 5 Apple and peach tree fruited deep, Fair as a garden of the Lord To the eyes of the famished rebel horde, On that pleasant morn of the early fall When Lee marched over the mountain wall,- 10 Over the mountains winding down, Horse and foot, into Frederick town. Forty flags with their silver stars, Forty flags with their crimson bars, Flapped in the morning wind: the sun 15 Of noon looked down, and saw not one. Up rose old Barbara Frietchie then, Bowed with her fourscore years and ten; Bravest of all in Frederick town, She took up the flag the men hauled down; 20 In her attic-window the staff she set, To show that one heart was loyal yet. Up the street came the rebel tread, Stonewall Jackson riding ahead. Under his slouched hat left and right 25 He glanced: the old flag met his sight. "Halt!"-the dust-brown ranks stood fast, "Fire!"-out blazed the rifle-blast. It shivered the window, pane and sash; It rent the banner with seam and gash. 30 Quick, as it fell, from the broken staff Dame Barbara snatched the silken scarf; She leaned far out on the window-sill, And shook it forth with a royal will. "Shoot, if you must, this old gray head, 35 But spare your country's flag," she said. A shade of sadness, a blush of shame, Over the face of the leader came; The nobler nature within him stirred To life at that woman's deed and word: 40 "Who touches a hair of yon gray head Dies like a dog! March on!" he said. All day long through Frederick street Sounded the tread of marching feet: All day long that free flag tost 45 Over the heads of the rebel host. Ever its torn folds rose and fell On the loyal winds that loved it well; And through the hill-gaps sunset light Shone over it with a warm good-night. 50 Barbara Frietchie's work is o'er, And the Rebel rides on his raids no more. Honor to her! and let a tear Fall, for her sake, on Stonewall's bier. Over Barbara Frietchie's grave, 55 Flag of Freedom and Union, wave! Peace and order and beauty draw Round thy symbol of light and law; And ever the stars above look down On thy stars below in Frederick town! *************** 60 Invoice to follow under separate cover. Mike Geary ----- Original Message ----- From: HEATHER TAYLOR To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:40:50 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:40:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <287030-220041610174050724@M2W034.mail2web.com> Sorry -- hit SEND too soon. It's from Whittier. Barbara has just said to the Confederate officer: "Shoot if you must this old gray head, But spare our country's flag!" she said. Original Message: ----------------- From: HEATHER TAYLOR heather at piping.fsnet.co.uk Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:51:41 -0000 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:44:26 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:44:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song Message-ID: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> For something I'm working on, thoughts here? What are the differences between poetry and song? What are the standards each has to meet? What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? What devices do they both use? What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? Tad -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 12:47:30 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:47:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification Message-ID: <157240-220041610174730127@M2W091.mail2web.com> Boy, you can see why those lines are so often excerpted from the poem. Those four stanzas, beginning with "Shoot if you must" and ending with "March on" are really stirring. The rest of the poem is pretty flat. Original Message: ----------------- From: Michael Geary atlas at earthlink.net Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:41:03 -0600 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poem identification John Greenleaf Whittier. 1807-1892 81. Barbara Frietchie UP from the meadows rich with corn, Clear in the cool September morn, The clustered spires of Frederick stand Green-walled by the hills of Maryland. Round about them orchards sweep, 5 Apple and peach tree fruited deep, Fair as a garden of the Lord To the eyes of the famished rebel horde, On that pleasant morn of the early fall When Lee marched over the mountain wall,- 10 Over the mountains winding down, Horse and foot, into Frederick town. Forty flags with their silver stars, Forty flags with their crimson bars, Flapped in the morning wind: the sun 15 Of noon looked down, and saw not one. Up rose old Barbara Frietchie then, Bowed with her fourscore years and ten; Bravest of all in Frederick town, She took up the flag the men hauled down; 20 In her attic-window the staff she set, To show that one heart was loyal yet. Up the street came the rebel tread, Stonewall Jackson riding ahead. Under his slouched hat left and right 25 He glanced: the old flag met his sight. "Halt!"-the dust-brown ranks stood fast, "Fire!"-out blazed the rifle-blast. It shivered the window, pane and sash; It rent the banner with seam and gash. 30 Quick, as it fell, from the broken staff Dame Barbara snatched the silken scarf; She leaned far out on the window-sill, And shook it forth with a royal will. "Shoot, if you must, this old gray head, 35 But spare your country's flag," she said. A shade of sadness, a blush of shame, Over the face of the leader came; The nobler nature within him stirred To life at that woman's deed and word: 40 "Who touches a hair of yon gray head Dies like a dog! March on!" he said. All day long through Frederick street Sounded the tread of marching feet: All day long that free flag tost 45 Over the heads of the rebel host. Ever its torn folds rose and fell On the loyal winds that loved it well; And through the hill-gaps sunset light Shone over it with a warm good-night. 50 Barbara Frietchie's work is o'er, And the Rebel rides on his raids no more. Honor to her! and let a tear Fall, for her sake, on Stonewall's bier. Over Barbara Frietchie's grave, 55 Flag of Freedom and Union, wave! Peace and order and beauty draw Round thy symbol of light and law; And ever the stars above look down On thy stars below in Frederick town! *************** 60 Invoice to follow under separate cover. Mike Geary ----- Original Message ----- From: HEATHER TAYLOR To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification can you help with this line from a poem 'Or die like a dog, march on said he' That's the only bit I know Thanks -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jvcervantes Sat Jan 10 13:25:36 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:25:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will clear it up for us. - Jim "tadrichards at prodigy.net" wrote: > > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > > What are the differences between poetry and song? > What are the standards each has to meet? > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? > What devices do they both use? > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? > > Tad > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Fri Jan 9 08:34:06 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:34:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Denise Levertov, "Age of Terror" Message-ID: Age of Terror Between the fear of the horror of Afterwards and the despair in the thought of no Afterwards, we move abraded, each gesture scraping us on the millstones. In dream there was an Afterwards the unknown device-- a silver computer as big as a block of offices at least, floating like Magritte's castle on its rock, aloft in the blue sky-- did explode, there was a long moment of cataclysm, light of a subdued rose-red suffused all the air before a rumbling confused darkness ensued, but I came to, face down, and found my young sister alive near me, and knew my still younger brother and our mother and father were close by too, and, passionately relieved, I comforted my shocked sister, still not daring to raise my head, only stroking and kissing her arm, afraid to find devastation around us though we, all five of us, seemed to have survived--and I readied myself to take rollcall: 'Paul Levertoff? Beatrice Levertoff?' And then in dream--not knowing if this device, this explosion, were radioactive or not, but sure that where it had centered there must be wreck, terror, fire and dust-- the millstones commenced their grinding again, and as in daylight again we were held between them, cramped, scraped raw by questions: perhaps, indeed, we were safe; perhaps no worse was to follow?--but . . . what of our gladness, when there, where the core of the strange roselight had flared up out of the detonation of brilliant angular silver, there must be others, others in agony, and as in waking daylight, the broken dead? --Denise Levertov fr. *Candles in Babylon* [New York: New Directions, 1982] in *Poems for the Millenium, Vol. Two* [Berkeley: Univ. of California Press, 1998] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From MillB Sat Jan 10 13:53:33 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:53:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song Message-ID: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> What are the differences between poetry and song? Poetry has to be stronger than song, more distilled, concentrated, like vanilla extract. I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more sentementality than poetry which has to stand on its own. A good song could have so-so lyrics, if the music is of good quality. Like the difference between a play and a monologue. The rest of the cast CAN carry a single weak character. What devices do they both use? Both can use rhyme. Both concentrate emotion and "story" into a single consecutive moment of "now." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 13:59:39 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:59:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > > What are the differences between poetry and song? poetry is a formal term, song informal, poetic poetry needn't be song, whose connotations make one think it should sound nice You probably won't want to mention it, but there are poems that have no sound--ones, that is, that can be read but not pronounced. I can't think of a single example offhand but know there must be some. Ones in code, and some abbreviated ones. Many visual poems are barely auditory. > What are the standards each has to meet? Song, it seems to me, would have to contain pleasing sounds, and also be a poem, so meet some other criteria for poetry, I would think. > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? None. > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? Auditory enjoyability. Poetry can meets this is it wants to. It seems to me a poem could meet it and still not be song, for it could require more reflection than I would associate with song. So maybe another requirement of song would be low IQ. > What devices do they both use? > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? I think poetry uses all the ones song does plus more cerebral burstnorm ones like disconcealment and all the other infraverbal ones. I think no devices are peculiar to any form of poetry, which is defined, I think (in my infra-objective way) by its properties, but which tends to use some minimum amount of a large number of poetic devices. That is, a poem needn't specifically use metaphor, rhyme, alliteration, or any of the other devices used by poetsetc., but will almost surely use one of them. informally yours, though aware he'll be held accountable for his many pseudoscientificabobbles in the Highest Court of Poetics here at new-poetry, Taxonobob From rwilsnac Sat Jan 10 14:36:45 2004 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:36:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification In-Reply-To: <157240-220041610174730127@M2W091.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040110131103.01be7680@medicine.nodak.edu> Whittier's words may also show how Auden overgeneralized in claiming that "poetry makes nothing happen." Whittier's poem (or song, if you prefer) shows how history (and the uses of history in subsequent generations) can be created or changed by poems/songs about events that never quite happened the way that poems/songs say they did. About Barbara Frietchie, Whittier later commented (eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2295.html ) : "This poem was written in strict conformity to the account of the incident as I had it from respectable and trustworthy sources. It has since been the subject of a good deal of conflicting testimony, and the story was probably incorrect in some of its details. It is admitted by all that Barbara Frietchie was no myth, but a worthy and highly esteemed gentlewoman, intensely loyal and a hater of the Slavery Rebellion, holding her Union flag sacred and keeping it with her Bible; that when the Confederates halted before her house, and entered her dooryard, she denounced them in vigorous language, shook her cane in their faces, and drove them out; and when General Burnside's troops followed close upon Jackson's, she waved her flag and cheered them. It is stated that Mary Quantrell, a brave and loyal lady in another part of the city, did wave her flag in sight of the Confederates. It is possible that there has been a blending of the two incidents." Other sources (online) argue that it is unlikely that Ms. Frietchie and "Stonewall" Jackson ever laid eyes on each other. Does it really matter? Frederick, Maryland still makes money off tourist desires to see where Barbara told off Stonewall, largely because Whittier wrote some words that still help people imagine that they just might have had the nerve to act the same in the same circumstances. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 14:38:31 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:38:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> Message-ID: <02f401c3d7b1$555c6e50$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Note, I'm thinking "song" not "song lyrics." --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song What are the differences between poetry and song? Poetry has to be stronger than song, more distilled, concentrated, like vanilla extract. I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more sentementality than poetry which has to stand on its own. A good song could have so-so lyrics, if the music is of good quality. Like the difference between a play and a monologue. The rest of the cast CAN carry a single weak character. What devices do they both use? Both can use rhyme. Both concentrate emotion and "story" into a single consecutive moment of "now." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 14:39:16 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:39:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02fe01c3d7b1$703ac9b0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > clear it up for us. > > - Jim Surely you mean Bales and Grumman. . . . --Bob G. From jvcervantes Sat Jan 10 14:44:47 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:44:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> <02fe01c3d7b1$703ac9b0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4000562F.55C9DA92@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > > clear it up for us. > > > > - Jim > > Surely you mean Bales and Grumman. . . . > > --Bob G. Oops! Sorry. Yep, got the wrong firm. - Jim From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 14:53:57 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:53:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <033301c3d7b3$7d1853d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > clear it up for us. > > - Jim And here I thought Bales and Grumman was a household name! New-Poetry has oft been cruel to me, but never this severely! --Bob G. From halvard Sat Jan 10 14:47:09 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:47:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <400043A0.29E1E70D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jeez, I thought he said "pottery" and "sarong." Wouldn't B & C have a blast with those? Hal { When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and { similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will { clear it up for us. { { - Jim { { "tadrichards at prodigy.net" wrote: { > { > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? { > { > What are the differences between poetry and song? { > What are the standards each has to meet? { > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? { > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? { > What devices do they both use? { > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? { > { > Tad { > { > -------------------------------------------------------------------- { > mail2web - Check your email from the web at { > http://mail2web.com/ . { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From atlas Sat Jan 10 15:02:42 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:02:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> > What are the differences between poetry and song? Ever tried dancing to a poem? It sucks. Mike Geary From halvard Sat Jan 10 14:50:18 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:50:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <02fe01c3d7b1$703ac9b0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: { > When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and { > similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will { > clear it up for us. { > { > - Jim { { Surely you mean Bales and Grumman. . . . { { --Bob G. Yeah, and I meant B & G, which, with an E, would be Baltimore Gas & Electric. B & C's that old headache powder. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From hruggier Sat Jan 10 15:19:58 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:19:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> Message-ID: <019501c3d7b7$1efbc7b0$be0d9942@Helen> And musicians have backup singers and string sections to cover up all the clinkers ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song What are the differences between poetry and song? Poetry has to be stronger than song, more distilled, concentrated, like vanilla extract. I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more sentementality than poetry which has to stand on its own. A good song could have so-so lyrics, if the music is of good quality. Like the difference between a play and a monologue. The rest of the cast CAN carry a single weak character. What devices do they both use? Both can use rhyme. Both concentrate emotion and "story" into a single consecutive moment of "now." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sat Jan 10 15:23:59 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:23:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poem identification References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040110131103.01be7680@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <01ab01c3d7b7$ae6111d0$be0d9942@Helen> Actually she was actual - my old roomies great great something - Barbara Corbin/Royersford, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Wilsnack" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poem identification > Whittier's words may also show how Auden overgeneralized in claiming > that "poetry makes nothing happen." Whittier's poem (or song, if you > prefer) shows how history (and the uses of history in subsequent > generations) can be created or changed by poems/songs about events > that never quite happened the way that poems/songs say they did. > About Barbara Frietchie, Whittier later commented > (eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2295.html ) : > > "This poem was written in strict conformity to the account of the incident > as I had it from respectable and trustworthy sources. It has since been > the subject of a good deal of conflicting testimony, and the story was > probably incorrect in some of its details. It is admitted by all that Barbara > Frietchie was no myth, but a worthy and highly esteemed gentlewoman, > intensely loyal and a hater of the Slavery Rebellion, holding her Union flag > sacred and keeping it with her Bible; that when the Confederates halted > before her house, and entered her dooryard, she denounced them in > vigorous language, shook her cane in their faces, and drove them out; > and when General Burnside's troops followed close upon Jackson's, she > waved her flag and cheered them. It is stated that Mary Quantrell, a brave > and loyal lady in another part of the city, did wave her flag in sight of the > Confederates. It is possible that there has been a blending of the two > incidents." > > Other sources (online) argue that it is unlikely that Ms. Frietchie and > "Stonewall" Jackson ever laid eyes on each other. Does it really matter? > Frederick, Maryland still makes money off tourist desires to see where > Barbara told off Stonewall, largely because Whittier wrote some words > that still help people imagine that they just might have had the nerve > to act the same in the same circumstances. > > Richard W. Wilsnack > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 10 15:31:47 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:31:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> From: "Michael Geary" > > > > What are the differences between poetry and song? > > > Ever tried dancing to a poem? It sucks. > > Mike Geary I wouldn't be so cruel. Their origins are similar, with the Minnesaenger they coincide. They got different paths along history, to the point that for several centuries poetry was considered a _suffered composing_ while songs a _joyful sharing_. We have been witnessing lately a change in songs and poems. Songs are becoming more and more refined (or desecrating, or vulgar, or social, political, ...), in words (some are short poems), in music, and in the aspect of the singer. On the other hand with readings, poets have changed, the figure of a poor hunchbacked Leopardi shut in his tower with his books is very distant from the image of the successful poet we have nowadays (the poet laureate of the States, for example). Where a reading can become the performing of a poem. There is no way you can keep an audience still by reading some very complicated poems in a monotonous voice, and often there is no way you can keep any reader reading something complicated you wrote. Thus brevity, due to lack of time, a common stressed life, the shared possibility of having it all, if... A brevity which characterizes both now: poems and songs. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Sense conveyed, a love for words and the act of expressing, weren't the muses nine, and all dear to Apollo, protected by Venus. And yes, with Helen Ruggieri, songs have become the _golden business_ poetry is the servant of the Olympus. Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome A cry is the black cliff abruptly rising from the dim mirror of the sea. Notebook of Positano A. Onofri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sat Jan 10 15:35:00 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:35:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: Message-ID: <01fc01c3d7b9$387f1500$be0d9942@Helen> Sounds like an old movie with Bob Hope and Dorothy Lamour - hope and love on the road ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song > Jeez, I thought he said "pottery" and "sarong." Wouldn't B & C > have a blast with those? > > Hal > > { When left to their devices, poetry and song develop both different and > { similar standards. I know that's vague, but I'm sure Bales & Cobb will > { clear it up for us. > { > { - Jim > { > { "tadrichards at prodigy.net" wrote: > { > > { > For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > { > > { > What are the differences between poetry and song? > { > What are the standards each has to meet? > { > What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? > { > What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? > { > What devices do they both use? > { > What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? > { > > { > Tad > { > > { > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > { > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > { > http://mail2web.com/ . > { > > { > _______________________________________________ > { > New-Poetry mailing list > { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tadrichards Sat Jan 10 15:41:14 2004 From: tadrichards (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:41:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Anny - this is great, and useful. Thanks. And thanks to all. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song From: "Michael Geary" > > > > What are the differences between poetry and song? > > > Ever tried dancing to a poem? It sucks. > > Mike Geary I wouldn't be so cruel. Their origins are similar, with the Minnesaenger they coincide. They got different paths along history, to the point that for several centuries poetry was considered a _suffered composing_ while songs a _joyful sharing_. We have been witnessing lately a change in songs and poems. Songs are becoming more and more refined (or desecrating, or vulgar, or social, political, ...), in words (some are short poems), in music, and in the aspect of the singer. On the other hand with readings, poets have changed, the figure of a poor hunchbacked Leopardi shut in his tower with his books is very distant from the image of the successful poet we have nowadays (the poet laureate of the States, for example). Where a reading can become the performing of a poem. There is no way you can keep an audience still by reading some very complicated poems in a monotonous voice, and often there is no way you can keep any reader reading something complicated you wrote. Thus brevity, due to lack of time, a common stressed life, the shared possibility of having it all, if... A brevity which characterizes both now: poems and songs. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Sense conveyed, a love for words and the act of expressing, weren't the muses nine, and all dear to Apollo, protected by Venus. And yes, with Helen Ruggieri, songs have become the _golden business_ poetry is the servant of the Olympus. Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome A cry is the black cliff abruptly rising from the dim mirror of the sea. Notebook of Positano A. Onofri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 10 15:39:50 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:39:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: Or, as Lynda said, last night, "Ars brevis, vita brevis." Hal Thus brevity, due to lack of time, a common stressed life, the shared possibility of having it all, if... A brevity which characterizes both now: poems and songs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 15:56:21 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:56:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> A musicality, which is the aim of both. Not so--at least for many at present doing what they consider to be poems. Visual poems don't try for musicality often, for instance, nor do many language poems. Sorry to intrude again. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 10 16:16:45 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:16:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> The evocation of sounds, (maybe that is better?) or of silence: Cage. Is Cage a musician, or a poet, or an artist? In this case, officially on a newspaper, if I had to review him, and since I like him, I would define him a poet. Thus elevating poet above singer-performer-musician and artist. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Not so--at least for many at present doing what they consider to be poems. Visual poems don't try for musicality often, for instance, nor do many language poems. Sorry to intrude again. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 16:39:45 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:39:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <040801c3d7c2$4500bf50$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> The evocation of sounds, (maybe that is better?) Nah. Lots of poems have nothing to do with sound. Then there are sound poems that have a lot to do with it, but not with conventional music. or of silence: Cage. Yes. I did one whose key word is "pnd." Is Cage a musician, or a poet, or an artist? In this case, officially on a newspaper, if I had to review him, and since I like him, I would define him a poet. Thus elevating poet above singer-performer-musician and artist. Actually, he wrote texts he considered poetry. He was active across the board. I think his various performed silences are music, though. A musicality, which is the aim of both. Not so--at least for many at present doing what they consider to be poems. Visual poems don't try for musicality often, for instance, nor do many language poems. Sorry to intrude again. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 10 16:31:22 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:31:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: When he was studying with Schoenberg, the latter called him an "inventor." Hal Is Cage a musician, or a poet, or an artist? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul Sat Jan 10 16:54:47 2004 From: paul (paul at tbhinc.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:54:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1905 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <200401101830.i0AIU3E1007137@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040110165057.03977c00@mail.tbhinc.com> Here's a challenge! I suppose you'll have to look at 1,000 poems never made into songs and a few thousand songs you think have poetic lyrics, maybe dig up the most-frequently set poems, in each region, in each decade, in each language. Aside from songs without words, are there songs that aren't poems? (Yes, I guess.) However you approach it, Tad, I'll be interested in your conclusions; also your bibliography. Paul C. Howell At 01:30 PM 1/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >From: "tadrichards at prodigy.net" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:44:26 -0500 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >For something I'm working on, thoughts here? > >What are the differences between poetry and song? >What are the standards each has to meet? >What are the standards poetry has to meet, but song doesn't? >What are the standards song has to meet, but poetry doesn't? >What devices do they both use? >What devices are peculiar to one, but not the other? > >Tad From JforJames Sat Jan 10 18:16:21 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:16:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song Message-ID: <14.203902b9.2d31e1c5@aol.com> A month ago I attended a performance by a local choral group called Concora. Their program featured a number of a contemporary composers who had set poems to music: "Peter Quince at the Clavier" (W. Stevens), with a setting by Robert Cohen. Charles Griffin's setting of two E. E. Cummihgs' pieces: "in just" and "hist whist," from Chansons Innocentes. The program also featured settings of poems by Langston Hughes, Dorothy Parker and Dylan Thomas. I spoke on a panel with the two composers, Cohen & Griffin, about poetry & music/song. Of course, the process of setting a poem to music is not always to the purpose of making a 'song'. So perhaps there is a third element in this discussion: the poem and music combined as aural art but not as song per se. My remarks during the panel discussion were very informal, but I tried to stir things up, and to express the misgivings of the modern poet with a quote from Valery: "having verse set to music is like looking at a painting through a stained glass window." Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Wed Jan 7 10:34:34 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:34:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ronald Johnson, "BEAM 6, The Musics" Message-ID: BEAM 6, The Musics Let flick his tail, the darkling Lion, down to the primal huddle fiddling DNA. Let the Elephant ruffle the elements in The Great Looped Nebula with his uplift trunk. Let the Binary, orange, emerald, and blue, in the foot of Andromeda run awhisker with Mouse. Let the Dickcissel, in Cock's-foot, Foxtail, & Tottering, ring one molecular ornamentation on tau Ceti. Let the Switch Snake lilt bluegrass back and forth be- tween pelucid cells. Let Porcupine rattle quill, in a Casseopia of Hollyhock. Let the whinny of Pigeons' wings trigger similar strains from elm to Triangulum. Let a score for matter's staccato to cornstalk be touted to stars clustering The Archer's wrist. Let the stripes of Zebra be in time with the imaginary House of Mozart, on Jupiter. --Ronald Johnson fr. *Ark: The Foundations: 1-33* [San Francisco: North Point Press, 1980] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From bobgrumman Sat Jan 10 18:44:03 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:44:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song References: <14.203902b9.2d31e1c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <047201c3d7d3$a2703600$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> My remarks during the panel discussion were very informal, but I tried to stir things up, and to express the misgivings of the modern poet with a quote from Valery: "having verse set to music is like looking at a painting through a stained glass window." Finnegan I like that idea. It's not as though you couldn't go inside the church and look at the painting directly. It seems to me a good summary of what artists' do: take previous art and lay stained glass on it, or remove stained glass from it. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Jan 11 07:26:35 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 07:26:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Sun Jan 11 08:33:10 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:33:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone > can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? > > --Bob G. > Impossibility/probability - fer starters - Jim From atlas Sun Jan 11 11:29:56 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:29:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01a601c3d860$2668d390$739edf18@atlas> > Impossibility/probability - fer starters > - Jim antiestablishmentarianism / proestablishmentarianism Please send my prize via Fed Ex, Mike Geary From Rsgwynn1 Sun Jan 11 12:16:22 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:16:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: Proposition and opposition would be rime riche or rich rhyme. I can't think of any true four-syllable rhymes offhand but will channel Mr. W. S. Gilbert. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Sun Jan 11 12:21:43 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:21:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <012b01c3d867$62d28220$8b099942@Helen> Depending on the rhyme - masc. or fem. try Ogden Nash - who rhymes polygamy and pigmy ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 7:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sun Jan 11 13:14:08 2004 From: tadrichards (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:14:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <29950-220041610174426355@M2W096.mail2web.com> <02c201c3d7ab$e79384d0$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <061401c3d7b4$b55e09f0$739edf18@atlas> <009a01c3d7b8$c56cc4e0$701c2dd5@anny> <00a301c3d7ba$18147a70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <03a001c3d7bc$347a9c60$36efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00e101c3d7bf$0d5c8b40$701c2dd5@anny> <014001c3d83e$28396d50$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <012b01c3d867$62d28220$8b099942@Helen> Message-ID: <001101c3d86e$b53afd10$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> It's not the same thing, but in Situations I rhymed four stresses in a pentameter line: Too often calumny can lurk behind A portrait drawn too well in a bland mask-it Hides motives cruel and dark. I fear you'll find Your friends have gone to hell in a handbasket." ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Ruggieri To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Depending on the rhyme - masc. or fem. try Ogden Nash - who rhymes polygamy and pigmy ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 7:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? I/by? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Jan 11 13:27:55 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:27:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: Message-ID: <025d01c3d870$a31205f0$61efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> "Proposition" and "opposition" don't truly rhyme? Where don't they? I sure thought they did. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Proposition and opposition would be rime riche or rich rhyme. I can't think of any true four-syllable rhymes offhand but will channel Mr. W. S. Gilbert. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sun Jan 11 15:38:37 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:38:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <62.3916f874.2d330e4d@cs.com> In a message dated 1/11/2004 12:29:54 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > "Proposition" and "opposition" don't truly rhyme? Where don't they? I > sure thought they did. > > --Bob G. > On second thought, I guess they do so these are true quadruple rhymes. I was thinking of something like "protection" and "detection," which really aren't true rhymes but just repetition of the "tection" or what the French would call rime riche. Gilbert, for example, rhymes "wary at" with "commissariat," which is a triple rhyme. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Mon Jan 12 07:49:49 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 07:49:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Song In-Reply-To: <17.4141fbd0.2d31a42d@aol.com> Message-ID: <4002519D.7004.203F8A@localhost> On 10 Jan 2004 at 13:53, MillB at aol.com wrote: > I think "song" can get away with repetition, and loose lyrics, more > sentimentality than poetry which has to stand on its own.<< This sounds like a description of the difference between free verse and verse in meter. Isn't the essence of free verse precisely that it's trying to get away with writing apart from the demands of meter? Perhaps the free versists will argue that songs are more likely to achieve poetry than metered verse because songs are trying to get away with writing apart from the demands of meter? There is no necessary difference between "poetry" and "song" -- a song can be poetry if it's good enough. If it's not good enough it's metered verse or free verse, depending on how it's written. A song has more hurdles to get over to be taken as poetry, though, than verse: most importantly the words must be singable, a quality that ranges from shower/tub singers to art songs and opera arias. It's very difficult to sing the vowel sound "ee" on a high note, and hard to sing it properly at all if it is an extended sound, for example. Songs that ask singers consistently to hit extended "ee" sounds on high notes will be making such demands on even excellent singers that it will be hard to make them sound good -- and songs that don't sound good aren't taken to be poetry! There are myriad other problems to writing songs as opposed to verse. Even verse that is not poetry has a rhythm of its own, and when the words are dictating the rhythms of the song instead of blending into the rhythms of the music, then one gets into the notion of the music being a setting for the words rather than the whole being a song. In most songs the primacy of the music over the words is the fundamental difference between song lyrics and verse. When the words have primacy over the music the result is a "setting", not a song. When there is no explicit music, but regular rhythm to the assemblage of words, the result is verse. When their is neither explicit music nor regular rhythm the result is prose. From halvard Mon Jan 12 08:09:51 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:09:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Antin, 10 Songs from "Novel Poem" Message-ID: 10 Songs 1 why not the one on the shelf as easily as the one in the lab but why not the one in the lab as easily as the one on the shelf 2 he'd say that the good time always gives way to the hard and that the hard time always softens again to the good and that was something you could see anywhere but you saw it better if you lived by the sea 3 and some were on horses that were on the way down and some horses had stopped higher and some had been low and were starting to go up again and some clamored on their horses 'pay another dime and start it again' and yet iliomycin grows like a dream handles like a charm and protects nothing and some said 'i wasnt eager to try it at first' and some had been frightened from the start and had needed someone to stand beside them and some wanted to step off and walk away and some dont like merry-go-rounds unless they can run them and some just dont like merry-go-rounds and some said in the fashion of a frugal woman 'if you had saved your first dime you'd still have it' 4 one way or another the species will survive one way or another it will find a means that will work just to get a fair share grub and lebensraum and another fellows poison the small birds were up and busy at 6 oclock and the starlings didnt get up till 8 standing here on the frozen ground something about that pleased him 5 you are talking to someone and you look up and it is not that person or everybody begins saying it is time you are filled with anxiety and go about asking what is going to happen and they look at you and dont answer climbing the stairs he had bridled with fear and entering he had found himself in a narrow smelly corridor he was travelling on an unreal train but it was not he it was a boy named Michael Rose 6 will you do it Tom will i do what will you leave 7 she said it without self pity what would she do in Israel this frail old lady of seventy Israel was for all the land that would flow with milk and honey 8 they may act through an intermediary or maintain their anonymity through a letter or telephone call whatever the means employed they should address themselves to the judicial authority 9 she had dozed a little after Avignon it was ridiculous she knew France was at peace the Germans had gone Vichy was a thing of the past on the train no one had spoken and he couldnt have cared less she had passed no checkpoint there had been no search no eruption of men in uniform no look of suspicion in anyone's eyes on the platform she put her bag down 10 he passed his hand over his gaunt brow it would never stop it was in the bone --David Antin part i fr. "Novel Poem" in *Selected Poems: 1963-1973* [Los Angeles: Sun & Moon, 1991] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus Mon Jan 12 08:43:27 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:43:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40025E2F.17004.515A28@localhost> > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find > > a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? > > I/by? From marcus Mon Jan 12 08:46:26 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:46:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <40015096.57B2341D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40025EE2.16864.5412B4@localhost> > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > two longest rhyming words are in English. ... On 11 Jan 2004 at 6:33, James Cervantes wrote: > Impossibility/probability - fer starters Those words neither rhyme nor even have the same number of syllables. But what can be expected along these lines from someone who says he has never read and will never read Tennyson? M From ron.silliman Mon Jan 12 09:14:33 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:14:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000501c3d916$6ad57db0$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout The gun as the verb in the syntax of cinema - shortchanging the reader/viewer in House of Sand & Fog Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry Dickinson - Niedecker - Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada's ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York Defining the line in speech as well as writing Blog less, blog better John Godfrey's Private Lemonade: the role of syntax in abstraction What the value of prose can bring to the poem Silent rhyme: Marianne Moore & the question of the line Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From tadrichards Mon Jan 12 10:09:22 2004 From: tadrichards (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:09:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <40025EE2.16864.5412B4@localhost> Message-ID: <005f01c3d91e$0f419b70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" prefix to both words. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game > > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > > two longest rhyming words are in English. ... > > On 11 Jan 2004 at 6:33, James Cervantes wrote: > > Impossibility/probability - fer starters > > Those words neither rhyme nor even have the same number of syllables. > But what can be expected along these lines from someone who says he > has never read and will never read Tennyson? > > M > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus Mon Jan 12 10:37:31 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:37:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <005f01c3d91e$0f419b70$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <400278EB.29603.3B78C8@localhost> > > > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get > > > > myself started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what > > > > the two longest rhyming words are in English. ... > > > > On 11 Jan 2004 at 6:33, James Cervantes wrote: > > > Impossibility/probability - fer starters > > > > Those words neither rhyme nor even have the same number of > > syllables. But what can be expected along these lines from someone > > who says he has never read and will never read Tennyson? On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > prefix to both words. Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? From halvard Mon Jan 12 12:28:10 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:28:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Books people vs. movies people Message-ID: Here's a link to an interesting piece comparing books people to movies people. http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001242.html#001242 Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From JforJames Mon Jan 12 17:18:04 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:18:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <41.38d8a9b7.2d34771c@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/04 10:38:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > never read Tennyson? > > On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > > It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > > prefix to both words. > > Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What > do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? I might be Kraken up, but it seems there's enuf assonance and consonance working there to qualify as near, imperfect, para, approximate or slant rime. Finnegan From jvcervantes Mon Jan 12 17:22:39 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:22:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <41.38d8a9b7.2d34771c@aol.com> Message-ID: <40031E2E.A25A3CC8@earthlink.net> No one ever said the syllable count had to be the same, just more than 4 syllables. And, it bores me to tears to have to say this, but I think MB is implying that rhyme has to be exact in sound and syllable count for it to satisfy his sense of exact rhyme. I suspect he doesn't recognize "near, imperfect, para, approximate or slant rime." He will argue this, of course, and probably refer once again to the fact that I don't like to read Tennyson. But so what? - Jim JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/12/04 10:38:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, > marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > > never read Tennyson? > > > > On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > > > It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > > > prefix to both words. > > > > Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What > > do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? > I might be Kraken up, but it seems there's enuf assonance > and consonance working there to qualify as near, imperfect, para, > approximate or slant rime. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 Mon Jan 12 17:42:07 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:42:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <15d.2b84c3c0.2d347cbf@cs.com> In a message dated 1/12/2004 4:31:01 PM Central Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > >>never read Tennyson? > >> > >> On 12 Jan 2004 at 10:09, TheOldMole wrote: > >> >It's remotely possible that he meant one was to assume the "im" > >> >prefix to both words. > >> > >> Ok, let's say that that solves the number of syllables problem. What > >> do you say about whether "impossible" and "improbable" rhyme? > >I might be Kraken up, but it seems there's enuf assonance > >and consonance working there to qualify as near, imperfect, para, > >approximate or slant rime. > >Finnegan > >______________ I guess everyone has already thought of Byron's "hen pecked you all" and "intellectual." He elides "intellectual" to "intlectual." But this would be a four-syllable rhyme, and more or less exact. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Jan 12 18:00:19 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:00:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <197.248002ef.2d348103@aol.com> In a message dated 1/12/04 9:12:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, ron.silliman at verizon.net writes: > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - > A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry > (from Jan 6 entry) This poem, which is entitled "Seconds," is worth exploring in greater length, both as an instance of this sharper edge & because it is an excellent example of how Armantrout uses the sectionality of her poetry to create objects that are every bit as torqued as the syntax of that first sentence. The title can be read in multiple ways &, always a good strategy when reading Armantrout, all of them bring something to the text. In the second section, lines are double-spaced, as tho stressing the ambivalence of their connectedness: A moment is everything one person (see below) takes in simultaneously though some or much of what a creature feels may not reach conscious awareness and only a small part (or none) of this will be carried forward to the next instant. These linebreaks are chasms ? the first line is a possible sentence in itself & its meaning transforms the instant that it becomes qualified as what a person takes in, tho the echo of our initial reading never fully fades. Again we have a reference, this time parenthetical ? (see below) ? that seems potentially as wayward as that question mark in the first section. And again we have words selected so carefully ? creature, for example ? one can almost feel the pain of precision literally exacted by such writing. The temporality of this section, driven by space & so many enjambed lines, slows down our reading &, with it, our perception of time. --? Ron, for starters, I enjoy your blog. (Thanks for keeping the list updated re your new entires.) But I want to quibble with the (supposed) merits of this Armantrout outtake. I don't want to judge the book/poetry by a few lines, but I really can't see what you're seeing here. It's an extended bit of abstract musing without any rhetorical flourish to support it. It starts with what must be cliche or at least something that's been better said before... "A moment is everything" "One person" and "a creature" are fairly bland philosophical constructs in context of this passage. In the poetry of Wallace Stevens this kind of surrogate/effigy/stand-in can come to life because there is so much more going on in the language itself. "conscious awareness" I tried to work with that one...but, I think, if not redundant, it's just a difference without distinction in the ccontext of what's being said. (And then there's the philosophical/psychological question of whether one could "feel" what hadn't crossed the threshold into consciousness?) The single virtue of this excerpt was that wry parenthetical "(see below)." But that was hardly enuf to redeem the quoted passage. (If the quoted lines in a review are like the teaser frames in a movie trailer, then these lines didn't get to me.) The other quoted bit from Armantrout was somewhat better, I thought... The point is to see through the dying, who pinch non-existent objects from the air sequentially,?to this seasons laying on of withered leaves? -- This sequence, tho awkwardly phrased, had the virtue of that nice turn of phrase: "laying on of/withered leave?" Finnegan From marcus Mon Jan 12 18:59:02 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:59:02 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game Message-ID: <200401122345.i0CNjIE1001561@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > No one ever said the syllable count had to be the same, just more than 4 > syllables. And, it bores me to tears to have to say this, but I think > MB is implying that rhyme has to be exact in sound and syllable count > for it to satisfy his sense of exact rhyme. I suspect he doesn't > recognize "near, imperfect, para, approximate or slant rime."<< Fergive me fer livin' but when someone starts with "opposition/proposition" and ask if anyone knows any such rhymes of more syllables you've got yer head so far up yer ass that ya can part yer hair with yer teeth if ya think "impossible/improbable" is god damned rhyme -- especially if ya claim ya never read Tennyson and are so proud of it ya declare ya never will, as you have, Jim Cervantes. Marcus From robin.hamilton2 Mon Jan 12 19:56:07 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:56:07 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <200401122345.i0CNjIE1001561@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <008601c3d970$07a0f760$0fba8051@MyPC> ... it's not quite to the theme of rhyme (and has no one yet pointed-out that it's virtually impossible to use double- or more-than-double rhyme in English outside comic verse -- see Byron and Auden) but given the emerging Tennyson connection: << Tennyson said of himself that he knew the quantity of the sounds of every English word except perhaps "scissors." >> Mind you, Tennyson's ventures into quantitative verse in English (like every else's except Arthur Hugh Clough) are pretty inept. Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Mon Jan 12 21:05:13 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:05:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game References: <40025E2F.17004.515A28@localhost> Message-ID: <023a01c3d979$af6ef2e0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > I was toying with words in my mind this morning to try to get myself > > > started on a writing assignment and I thought of > > > "proposition/opposition." That led me to a wonder about what the > > > two longest rhyming words are in English. I'm sure someone can find > > > a pair who are longer than four syllables each. The shortest? > > > I/by? > > > From an > Attitude of ripe superiority > Grumman Does anyone else find me taking "an attitude of ripe superiority" above? > Demonstrates his rhyme inferiority. Congratulations on a five-syllable rhyme, Marcus. Even if you did have to demonstrate your grammar inferiority when telling us about it. propositionally/oppositionally --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus Tue Jan 13 08:43:30 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:43:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhyme Game In-Reply-To: <008601c3d970$07a0f760$0fba8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <4003AFB2.28955.4DF482@localhost> On 13 Jan 2004 at 0:56, Robin Hamilton wrote: > ... it's not quite to the theme of rhyme (and has no one yet > pointed-out that it's virtually impossible to use double- or > more-than-double rhyme in English outside comic verse -- see Byron and > Auden) ...<< Nothing comic about this: A Forsaken Garden AC Swinburne In a coign of the cliff between lowland and highland, At the sea-down's edge between windward and lee, Walled round with rocks as an inland island, The ghost of a garden fronts the sea. A girdle of brushwood and thorn encloses The steep square slope of the blossomless bed Where the weeds that grew green from the graves of its roses Now lie dead. The fields fall southward, abrupt and broken, To the low last edge of the long lone land. If a step should sound or a word be spoken, Would a ghost not rise at the strange guest's hand? So long have the grey bare walks lain guestless, Through branches and briars if a man make way, He shall find no life but the sea-wind's, restless Night and day. The dense hard passage is blind and stifled That crawls by a track none turn to climb To the strait waste place that the years have rifled Of all but the thorns that are touched not of time. The thorns he spares when the rose is taken; The rocks are left when he wastes the plain. The wind that wanders, the weeds wind-shaken, These remain. Not a flower to be pressed of the foot that falls not; As the heart of a dead man the seed-plots are dry; From JforJames Wed Jan 14 15:32:56 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:32:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Indian Poetry in English Message-ID: <1f1.17462294.2d370178@aol.com> This piece starts out as an Indian version of "Can Poetry Matter?." But it gets better when Jayanta Mahapatra makes his case for what should be important in poetry today... http://www.thedailystar.net/2004/01/10/d40110210288.htm Poets are expected to make sense of life. If they find life today in fragments, they must not leave it that way. Perhaps they should have that desire to produce poetry that transcends the ills of modern life rather than poetry that helplessly mirrors them. It is easy for me to say this when I know I am guilty myself of such writing. But I am afraid this is a difficult task to achieve. From halvard Wed Jan 14 18:03:41 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:03:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two by Jackson Mac Low Message-ID: Manifest To manifest: to be, visibly. To make visible what was formerly invisible or otherwise to make sensible what was formerly not. To present or make present, vocally, visibly, or otherwise, one's views, sentiments, objections, etc., in reference to a matter of public concern. Manifest: a commercial document listing constituents of cargo or names of passengers on a plane, ship, or other vehicle. A manifest of meanings. To make evident or certain by showing or displaying. Readily perceived by the senses, especially by sight. Easily understood or recognized. Obvious. To become obvious. To be, obviously. To be, recognizable. To emerge as a figure from a ground. To become visible, or otherwise perceptible, as an agent. To act. To make interior states perceptible to others. Manifesto: a public declaration of principles, intentions, views, or feelings. A document in which is said explicitly what otherwise might have remained implicit in political, artistic, or other practice. To present or make present. To present for inspection what might not otherwise have been able to be inspected. To make the implicit explicit. To make the hidden unhidden. To say what might not otherwise have been said. Choose one or more of the following: Every text is a manifesto. Every (adjective) text is a manifesto. Every text worth reading is a manifesto. 18 June 1983 New York Unmanifest What the maker of a manifesto does not comprehend or acknowledge is the basic unmanifestness from which and within which each manifest- ation takes place. It is this neglect or ignorance that calls forth repugnance when a manifesto is proclaimed or published, especially one regarding art. As if what comes to being in and as the work of art could ever be totally manifest or even manifest at all without its abiding steadfastly in the unmanifest! A work of art is a manifesto only insofar as it is its own antimanifesto. 21 June 1983 New York --Jackson Mac Low fr. *Bloomsday* [Barrytown, NY: Station Hill Press, 1984] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman Wed Jan 14 18:19:19 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:19:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers References: <001801c3d90e$d9dec250$91684e0c@tia> Message-ID: <02f601c3daf4$d7152b30$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Does Bloom remind anyone of anybody who sometimes posts to new-poetry? I think Moretti is on to something valuable but narrow-minded. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tia Ballantine To: cwuhm-l at hawaii.edu Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers Studying Literature by the Numbers January 10, 2004 By EMILY EAKIN NY Times If Franco Moretti had his way, literature scholars would stop reading books and start counting, graphing and mapping them instead. For an English professor, this is an ambition verging on apostasy. But Mr. Moretti, a professor of English and comparative literature at Stanford and director of the university's center for the study of the novel, insists that such a move could bring new luster to a tired field, one that in some respects, he says, is among "the most backwards disciplines in the academy." Mr. Moretti, 53, has been honing his vision of a text-free literary scholarship in books and articles over the last two decades. And now he is issuing a manifesto. "Graphs, Maps, Trees: Abstract Models for Literary History," which just appeared in the November/December issue of New Left Review, a British journal of politics and culture, is merely the first installment. (Two more will follow in subsequent issues.) But in it Mr. Moretti makes his most forceful case yet for his approach, a heretical blend of quantitative history, geography and evolutionary theory. Literary study, he argues, has been a random, unsystematic affair. For any given period, scholars focus on a select group of a mere few hundred texts: the canon. As a result, they have allowed a narrow, distorting slice of literary history to pass for the total picture. "What a minimal fraction of the literary field we all work on," Mr. Moretti declares, tactfully including himself among the guilty. "A canon of 200 novels, for instance, sounds very large for 19th-century Britain (and is much larger than the current one), but is still less than 1 per cent of the novels that were actually published: 20,000, 30, more, no one really knows - and close reading won't help here, a novel a day every day of the year would take a century or so." The perils of such a method, he writes, are clear: "A field this large cannot be understood by stitching together separate bits of knowledge about individual cases, because it isn't a sum of individual cases: it's a collective system, that should be grasped as such, as a whole." Equally clear, he maintains, is the remedy: the way to "a more rational literary history" is to replace close reading with abstract models borrowed from the sciences. Where other scholars quote from "Pamela," "Moll Flanders" or "Tom Jones" - traditionally considered among the first modern novels - Mr. Moretti offers bar charts, maps and time lines instead. A vast synthesis of material (much of it gathered by other scholars working on a single period or genre), his is a history of literature as data points, one that looks as if it could have been lifted from an economics textbook. Here the 18th-century British novel is represented by its publication rate: a single, undulating fever line. Likewise entire genres - including the epistolary, the gothic and the historical novel - as well the literary outputs of countries like Japan, Italy, Spain and Nigeria. Viewed from this level of abstraction, Mr. Moretti argues, literary history looks significantly different from what is commonly supposed. For example, it is clear, he writes, that the novel did not experience a single "rise," as is frequently taught (following the title of a famous book by the critic Ian Watt), but went through repeated cycles of growth and retrenchment, with political crises corresponding to dips in publication rates. So, too, according to another graph, did the ratio of male to female authors. As Mr. Moretti sums up the point: "It's fascinating to see how researchers are convinced that they are all describing something unique (the gender shift, the elevation of the novel, the gentrification, the invention of high and low, the feminization, the sentimental education, the invasion . . . ), whereas in all likelihood they are all observing the same comet that keeps crossing and recrossing the sky: the same literary cycle." In some ways, Mr. Moretti's quantitative method is simply the latest in a long line of efforts to make literary criticism look more like science. From Russian formalism in the 1920's to New Criticism in the 1950's and structuralism and semiotics in the 1960's and 70's, the discipline's major movements share a desire to portray literature as a system governed by hidden laws and structures whose operations it is the critic's job to reveal. But in its formal renunciation of individual texts - and, more provocatively, of reading - Mr. Moretti's approach, at least as he sketches it in New Left Review, is conceivably more radical than anything his predecessors dreamed up. Which doesn't mean that he always knows what to make of his findings. For example, disparate novelistic genres, when mapped out together across a time line, appear to share some intriguing features: an individual life span of about 25 to 30 years and a tendency to emerge and die out in clusters. Thirty years is the length of a human generation, Mr. Moretti notes. But then, he concedes, people are born - and generations begun - every day. So what explains the regularity with which genres appear and disappear? Mr. Moretti isn't sure. But it is precisely this kind of question, he argues, that scholars have overlooked by focusing on specific texts rather than literature as a whole. As he put it in a telephone interview from Rome, where he was on vacation: "The big picture is not just bigger in terms of the number of texts. The system is literally a system with different properties than individual texts. This is something literary studies would never face if we just kept reading and rereading the same texts." Maybe so. But given the extent to which instruction, research and reputations in the field are yoked to just that activity, even Mr. Moretti's admirers say his approach is unlikely to win many converts. "It's an extraordinarily brave and promising project that carries the danger of taking the study of literature away from reading, which is what keeps us and our students going," said Jonathan Arac, the chairman of the English department at Columbia University and a specialist in the 19th- and 20th-century novel. Harold Bloom, the Yale English professor famous for his prodigious command of canonical literature, was more dismissive. Interrupting a description of the theory, he pronounced Mr. Moretti "an absurdity." "I am interested in reading," he said with an audible shudder. "That's all I'm interested in." Mr. Moretti cheerfully acknowledged that his ideas were controversial. But that has not dampened his enthusiasm. "After Christmas, I'm going to teach a class on electronic data in which we will work on 8,000 titles from the mid-18th century to the 19th century," he said, eagerly elaborating his vision of what he called "literature without texts." "My little dream," he added wistfully, "is of a literary class that would look more like a lab than a Platonic academy." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Thu Jan 15 06:15:36 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 04:15:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter, 2003-04 issue of The Salt River Review Message-ID: <40067658.B78FFDE5@earthlink.net> The Winter, 2003-04 issue of The Salt River Review at http://www.poetserv.org is now online, with poetry by Yannis Ritsos, Jalina Mhyana, Laurel Snyder, Jeff Schiff, Halvard Johnson, & Joe Somoza; fiction by Rachel Schwartz, Margo Note, & Jesse Goldstein; literary Non-fiction from Katheen Alcal? & Stanley Jenkins. The Salt River Review considers manuscripts for its Spring, 2004 issue January through March. Please send to the appropriate editors and follow the guidelines: http://www.poetserv.org/guidelines.html - Jim From FanwoodJEL Thu Jan 15 11:18:37 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:18:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] calling all cars Message-ID: <162.2a96c8f5.2d38175d@aol.com> Does anybody have an email address for Robert Hass or Michael Ondaatje? Thanks, Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.alexander1 Thu Jan 15 09:35:12 2004 From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:35:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor-www.writersalmanac.org References: <11b.2c88666d.2d247138@cs.com> Message-ID: <000601c3dbad$2e4b0740$c787fac1@pavilion> Rsgwynn, Nice Thread, good poems Thanks, J.A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor One of my poems was read on Writer's Almanac for 30 December. www.writersalmanac.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.alexander1 Thu Jan 15 09:44:03 2004 From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:44:03 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter thoughts References: <3FEFEC49.32247.5164D6@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c3dbad$2f2cdbc0$c787fac1@pavilion> MB I enjoyed reading that. Thanks, JA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Winter thoughts > > I'm not certain what you are attempting to > > prove with these opening passages. I wonder > > if more than a few great (canonized) poems > > could stand on their first lines (if not for the > > teacherly indoctrination that made us love > > them)? > > Finnegan > > Back out of all this now too much for us, > Back in a time made simple by the loss. > > Had we but world enough, and time, > This coyness, lady, were no crime > > A sudden blow: the great wings beating still > Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed > By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill, > > When I see a couple of kids > And guess he's fucking her and she's > Taking pills or wearing a diaphragm, > > A.U.C. 334: about this date, > For a sexual misdemeanor which she denied, > The vestal virgin Postumia was tried; > > Think not, because I wonder where you fled, > That I would lift a pin to see you there; > > There was such speed in her little body, > And such lightness in her footfall, > > The sea is calm tonight. > The tide is full, the moon lies fair > Upon the straits; on the French coast the light > Gleams and is gone; > > Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, > Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, > > She fears him, and will always ask > What fated her to choose him; > > The force that through the green fuse drives the flower > Drives my green age; > > In a coign of the cliff between lowland and highland, > At the sea-down's edge between windward and lee, > Walled round with rocks as an inland island, > > I must not think of you; and, tired yet strong, > I shun the thought that lurks in all delight -- > > He disappeared in the dead of winter: > The brooks were frozen, the airports almost deserted, > And snow disfigured the public statues; > > Thou shalt have one God only; who > Would be at the expense of two? > > Nothing is plumb, level or square: > the studs are bowed, the joists > are shaky by nature, no piece fits > any other piece without a gap > > That's my last Duchess painted on the wall, > Looking as if she were alive; > > We stood by a pond that winter day, > And the sun was white, as though chidden of God, > > A single flower he sent me, since we met. > All tenderly his messenger he chose; > Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet - > > What were we playing? Was it prisoner's base? > I ran with whacking keds > Down the cart-road past Rickard's place, > > That's what you get for loving me > That's what you get for loving me > Well everything you had is gone, as you can see; > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Thu Jan 15 16:58:26 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:58:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Philip Whalen, "Hymnus ad Patrem Sinensis" Message-ID: HYMNUS AD PATREM SINENSIS I praise those ancient Chinamen Who left me a few words, Usually a pointless joke or a silly question A line of poetry drunkenly scrawled on the margin of a quick splashed picture--bug, leaf, caricature of Teacher on paper held together now by little more than ink & their own strength brushed momentarily over it Their world & several others since Gone to hell in a handbasket, they knew it-- Cheered as it whizzed by-- & conked out among the busted spring rain cherryblossom winejars Happy to have saved us all. 31:viii:58 --Philip Whalen, from Decompressions, Selected Poems, 1969 Hal, with thanks to Larry Goodell for passing this one along Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames Thu Jan 15 18:57:41 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:57:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Shearsman 57 is now online Message-ID: <12f.397caefd.2d3882f5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:08:00 +0000 From: Tony Frazer Subject: Shearsman 57 is now online http://www.shearsman.com/ where you should click on < current issue > in the magazine jump menu, top right. This issue features poetry by Joshua Auerbach Michael Donhauser (translated by Iain Galbraith) Laurie Duggan Erling Friis-Baastad Sam Sampson Catherine Wagner John Welch My apologies to those receiving this notification more than once. Tony Frazer Editor, Shearsman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afilreis Fri Jan 9 07:20:25 2004 From: afilreis (Al Filreis) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:20:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hejinian March 23 Message-ID: <200401091220.i09CKPfp026815@dept.english.upenn.edu> JOIN US BY WEBCAST ********************************** If you cannot come to Philadelphia for these events, please join us live by webcast. Events starred(**) below will be webcast live. To reserve a space in our webcast audience--and to receive further instructions--please write to whfellow at writing.upenn.edu. ********************************** KELLY WRITERS HOUSE FELLOWS 2004 The people of the Kelly Writers House proudly present our sixth year of Writers House Fellows: Russell Banks, Lyn Hejinian, and James Alan McPherson. All events are held at 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, and are free and open to the public. Spaces are limited; rsvp now to reserve a seat by writing to whfellow at writing.upenn.edu or by calling (215) 573-9749. novelist RUSSELL BANKS ---------------------- Monday, February 16, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** poet LYN HEJINIAN ----------------- Monday, March 22, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** short story writer & essayist JAMES ALAN McPHERSON --------------------------------------------------- Monday, April 19, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** For much more information: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow . Writers House Fellows is funded by a generous grant from Paul Kelly. previous Fellows: ---------------------------- Susan Sontag 2003 Walter Bernstein Laurie Anderson John Ashbery 2002 Charles Fuller Michael Cunningham June Jordan 2001 David Sedaris Tony Kushner Grace Paley 2000 Robert Creeley John Edgar Wideman Gay Talese 1999 recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ From tad Tue Jan 13 20:31:02 2004 From: tad (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:31:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sunken Garden Message-ID: <004b01c3da3e$12d76780$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 07, 2004 Event: National Poetry Competition Place: Sunken Garden Poetry Festival, Hill-Stead Museum, Farmington, CT 06032 Time: Submission deadline: February 1, 2004 Contact: Joy Pachla, pachlaj at hillstead.org, 860.677.4787 The February 1, 2004, deadline is nearly here for the Sunken Garden Poetry Festival's first-ever national competition-and the prizes are awesome! A first-place winner will receive $800, and on June 30, 2004, give a feature reading in Hill-Stead Museum's famed Sunken Garden Poetry Festival. Hill-Stead also will publish a limited edition chapbook of the winning poet's verse (winner receives 50 copies), and Connecticut Review will feature the winner's poems in its pages. A second-place winner will give an introductory reading on June 30, publish in Connecticut Review and receive $400. Poets Marilyn Nelson and Robert Cording are the final judges. Winners will be announced by May, 2004. Award-winning poet Grace Paley kicks off the festival season on June 2, 2004. Go to www.hillstead.org, or contact Joy Pachla at 860.677.4787 ext 111 or pachlaj at hillstead.org. Poetry Competition Guidelines: Eligibility. Must be at least 18 years of age and reside in the United States. Poets featured in the festival 1992-2003 are ineligible, although previous winners of the Young Poets Competition and Competition for Connecticut Adults may enter. Submission. One entry per individual. Send two copies of up to three poems, written in English, each with a maximum line length of 65. No previously published poems or simultaneous submissions. Do not write your name on copies of poems. Send cover sheet with name, contact information, one-paragraph bio and list of titles or first lines. Mail all sheets with $20 (make check payable to Hill-Stead Museum) and SASE to: National Poetry Competition, Hill-Stead Museum, 35 Mountain Road, Farmington, CT 06032 Finalists. Up to five finalists will be required to submit chapbook-length manuscripts. OK, my question. Why is an organization as successful and well-funded as Sunken Garden charging a $20 entry fee? Tad Richards "Situations" http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Thu Jan 15 23:10:05 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:10:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I put my foot in it Message-ID: And now I've committed to writing a sonnet a day (except Thursdays) until April Fools' Day. The first 9 are already up at my blog, http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ Obviously, I make no claims to their value as they are now. But I'll work at them come April 1, and any comments, good or bad, are appreciated. foolishly, Michael From james.alexander1 Thu Jan 15 17:11:51 2004 From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:11:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <001801c3d90e$d9dec250$91684e0c@tia> <02f601c3daf4$d7152b30$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000901c3dc19$0a7f16a0$8b84fac1@pavilion> Smiles for 2004. Here is one approach, perhaps this is not what you had in mind Bob! (hope the cut & paste does not alter this) Bi-lingual bare with it Vous ?tes-vous d?j? demand? ce que ?a voulait dire, se donner ? 100 % ? Have you ever ask what it means to give it 100% Et comment font ceux qui se vantent de se donner ? plus de 100 % ? And how some boast & bragg of giving it more than your best > 100% ? Voici une r?ponse qui donne ? r?fl?chir... Some thoughts & ...solutions? "Time gentlemen please, rings the barman". C'est l'heure (Leure!) Messieurs (les DAMES ne boivent pas ! qq'un doit conduire. Consid?rant que... Let a to z be as follows: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z valent (are worth) : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Alors... T R A V A I L (inflation!?) W O R K (deflation!?) 20 18 1 22 1 9 12 = 83% 21 15 18 11 = 65% ! E N G A G E M E N T (application : 1,16,16,12,9,3...etc ) 5 14 7 1 7 5 13 5 14 20 = 91% C O M P ? T E N C E 3 15 13 16 5 20 5 14 3 5 = 99% On s'approche du r?sultat, n'est ce pas? Getting nearer to the result Alors... Then.. A T T I T U D E 1 20 20 9 20 21 4 5 = 100% D I S C I P L I N E 4 9 19 3 9 16 12 9 14 5 = 100% Wow, impressionnant, non? Continuons... V A N T A R D I S E P R E P O S T E R O U S 22 1 14 20 1 18 4 9 19 5 = 113% 16 18 5 16 15 19 20 5 18 15 21 19=187% On vient de p?ter le 100% !!! We have just bursted the 100% and. Et voyons jusqu'o? cela peut nous mener... PREPOSTEROUS And we are nearing the 200 per hr (no units!) !!! Et on approche les 200 ? l'heure ! (pas d'unit?s ! ) ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 12:19 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers Does Bloom remind anyone of anybody who sometimes posts to new-poetry? I think Moretti is on to something valuable but narrow-minded. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tia Ballantine To: cwuhm-l at hawaii.edu Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers Studying Literature by the Numbers January 10, 2004 By EMILY EAKIN NY Times If Franco Moretti had his way, literature scholars would stop reading books and start counting, graphing and mapping them instead. For an English professor, this is an ambition verging on apostasy. But Mr. Moretti, a professor of English and comparative literature at Stanford and director of the university's center for the study of the novel, insists that such a move could bring new luster to a tired field, one that in some respects, he says, is among "the most backwards disciplines in the academy." Mr. Moretti, 53, has been honing his vision of a text-free literary scholarship in books and articles over the last two decades. And now he is issuing a manifesto. "Graphs, Maps, Trees: Abstract Models for Literary History," which just appeared in the November/December issue of New Left Review, a British journal of politics and culture, is merely the first installment. (Two more will follow in subsequent issues.) But in it Mr. Moretti makes his most forceful case yet for his approach, a heretical blend of quantitative history, geography and evolutionary theory. Literary study, he argues, has been a random, unsystematic affair. For any given period, scholars focus on a select group of a mere few hundred texts: the canon. As a result, they have allowed a narrow, distorting slice of literary history to pass for the total picture. "What a minimal fraction of the literary field we all work on," Mr. Moretti declares, tactfully including himself among the guilty. "A canon of 200 novels, for instance, sounds very large for 19th-century Britain (and is much larger than the current one), but is still less than 1 per cent of the novels that were actually published: 20,000, 30, more, no one really knows - and close reading won't help here, a novel a day every day of the year would take a century or so." The perils of such a method, he writes, are clear: "A field this large cannot be understood by stitching together separate bits of knowledge about individual cases, because it isn't a sum of individual cases: it's a collective system, that should be grasped as such, as a whole." Equally clear, he maintains, is the remedy: the way to "a more rational literary history" is to replace close reading with abstract models borrowed from the sciences. Where other scholars quote from "Pamela," "Moll Flanders" or "Tom Jones" - traditionally considered among the first modern novels - Mr. Moretti offers bar charts, maps and time lines instead. A vast synthesis of material (much of it gathered by other scholars working on a single period or genre), his is a history of literature as data points, one that looks as if it could have been lifted from an economics textbook. Here the 18th-century British novel is represented by its publication rate: a single, undulating fever line. Likewise entire genres - including the epistolary, the gothic and the historical novel - as well the literary outputs of countries like Japan, Italy, Spain and Nigeria. Viewed from this level of abstraction, Mr. Moretti argues, literary history looks significantly different from what is commonly supposed. For example, it is clear, he writes, that the novel did not experience a single "rise," as is frequently taught (following the title of a famous book by the critic Ian Watt), but went through repeated cycles of growth and retrenchment, with political crises corresponding to dips in publication rates. So, too, according to another graph, did the ratio of male to female authors. As Mr. Moretti sums up the point: "It's fascinating to see how researchers are convinced that they are all describing something unique (the gender shift, the elevation of the novel, the gentrification, the invention of high and low, the feminization, the sentimental education, the invasion . . . ), whereas in all likelihood they are all observing the same comet that keeps crossing and recrossing the sky: the same literary cycle." In some ways, Mr. Moretti's quantitative method is simply the latest in a long line of efforts to make literary criticism look more like science. From Russian formalism in the 1920's to New Criticism in the 1950's and structuralism and semiotics in the 1960's and 70's, the discipline's major movements share a desire to portray literature as a system governed by hidden laws and structures whose operations it is the critic's job to reveal. But in its formal renunciation of individual texts - and, more provocatively, of reading - Mr. Moretti's approach, at least as he sketches it in New Left Review, is conceivably more radical than anything his predecessors dreamed up. Which doesn't mean that he always knows what to make of his findings. For example, disparate novelistic genres, when mapped out together across a time line, appear to share some intriguing features: an individual life span of about 25 to 30 years and a tendency to emerge and die out in clusters. Thirty years is the length of a human generation, Mr. Moretti notes. But then, he concedes, people are born - and generations begun - every day. So what explains the regularity with which genres appear and disappear? Mr. Moretti isn't sure. But it is precisely this kind of question, he argues, that scholars have overlooked by focusing on specific texts rather than literature as a whole. As he put it in a telephone interview from Rome, where he was on vacation: "The big picture is not just bigger in terms of the number of texts. The system is literally a system with different properties than individual texts. This is something literary studies would never face if we just kept reading and rereading the same texts." Maybe so. But given the extent to which instruction, research and reputations in the field are yoked to just that activity, even Mr. Moretti's admirers say his approach is unlikely to win many converts. "It's an extraordinarily brave and promising project that carries the danger of taking the study of literature away from reading, which is what keeps us and our students going," said Jonathan Arac, the chairman of the English department at Columbia University and a specialist in the 19th- and 20th-century novel. Harold Bloom, the Yale English professor famous for his prodigious command of canonical literature, was more dismissive. Interrupting a description of the theory, he pronounced Mr. Moretti "an absurdity." "I am interested in reading," he said with an audible shudder. "That's all I'm interested in." Mr. Moretti cheerfully acknowledged that his ideas were controversial. But that has not dampened his enthusiasm. "After Christmas, I'm going to teach a class on electronic data in which we will work on 8,000 titles from the mid-18th century to the 19th century," he said, eagerly elaborating his vision of what he called "literature without texts." "My little dream," he added wistfully, "is of a literary class that would look more like a lab than a Platonic academy." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Fri Jan 16 07:27:15 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:27:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <000901c3dc19$0a7f16a0$8b84fac1@pavilion> Message-ID: <40079253.5514.F2768@localhost> > If Franco Moretti had his way, literature scholars would > stop reading books and start counting, graphing and mapping them > instead.... > The perils of such a method, he writes, are clear: "A field this large > cannot be understood by stitching together separate bits of knowledge > about individual cases, because it isn't a sum of individual cases: > it's a collective system, that should be grasped as such, as a whole."... > Bob Grumman > ... I think Moretti is on to something valuable but narrow- > minded. The notion of studying the patterns of a collective system still relies on defining the parts and the whole. There must be substantial agreement about what is X and what is not-X; for example, there must be agreement about what constitutes "the novel" and "the poem" even if all one wants to do is count how many were written. There has to be agreement about what counts as "publication". I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 08:04:22 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:04:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <001801c3d90e$d9dec250$91684e0c@tia> <02f601c3daf4$d7152b30$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000901c3dc19$0a7f16a0$8b84fac1@pavilion> Message-ID: <01c201c3dc31$43e64ae0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I enjoyed this, James. Ironically, at another discussion group I've been arguing with a friend who said I had no discipline, so I really picked up on discipline equals 100%. I would suggest a circular approach to the weighing that had the percentages sart at one after 100 is reached. A related approach would be to divided each word's sum by the number of letters in the word to find the word's mass. "Zzzz" would thus be the weightiest word in English. The process, a kind of found-meaning procedure, reminds me of a process carried out for a while by a guy named Michael Winkler, who soon thereafter disappeared from the poetry scene, as far as I know. He made clocks of the alphabet so A would be at noon, F and G near the three, M and N at the six and T, I guess, at the nine. Then he'd take a word and draw a straight line on the clock from the word's first letter to its second, then from its second letter to its third, and so on. He'd end up with some kind of geometric shape. Often it was strangely appropriate for the word that was diagrammed. Can't remember any now, alas. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 10:00:40 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:00:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <40079253.5514.F2768@localhost> Message-ID: <023f01c3dc41$838592e0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different from mine. --Bob G. From marcus Fri Jan 16 10:09:50 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:09:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <023f01c3dc41$838592e0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4007B86E.16053.A4029F@localhost> On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different > from mine. Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person who disagreed with him. Marcus From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 12:51:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:51:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <4007B86E.16053.A4029F@localhost> Message-ID: <02be01c3dc59$5810ec50$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. > > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different > > from mine. > > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > who disagreed with him. > > Marcus > His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an absurdity." --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From elemenope Fri Jan 16 00:45:24 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:45:24 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Bob, Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," denotes. As I understand it, the word is not being employed to insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave intellectually. > >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >who disagreed with him Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise think tank. Richard Dillon -- From marcus Fri Jan 16 14:37:23 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:37:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <02be01c3dc59$5810ec50$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4007F723.11779.198F26B@localhost> > > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. > > > > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different > > > from mine. > > > > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, > > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems > > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > > who disagreed with him. > > Marcus On 16 Jan 2004 at 12:51, Bob Grumman wrote: > His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an > absurdity."<< And once again the very best you're capable of is name-calling, apparently. How sad. From bobgrumman Fri Jan 16 15:55:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:55:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <006501c3dc73$02c54ba0$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," > denotes. A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some truth he hates. You can identify one by his methods, which I hope to make a full list of sometime. Usually he pretends to be sincerely seeking the truth when entering a discussion, so Bloom probably was too forthright for a genuine verosopath in this instance. Bloom is a thick-headed reactionary but probably not a verosopath. >As I understand it, the word is not being employed to > insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave > intellectually. The latter--but with an awareness that it would be taken as an insult and not minding that it would be. > >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > >who disagreed with him > > > Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise think tank. > > Richard Dillon I'd say (without knowing a great deal about either man) that they both believe in and try to promote (unpopular) fractions of truths they seem to think are full truths. I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. --Bob G. From marcus Fri Jan 16 16:42:53 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:42:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <006501c3dc73$02c54ba0$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4008148D.4882.20BDB17@localhost> On 16 Jan 2004 at 15:55, Bob Grumman wrote: > A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to > destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the > acceptance of some truth he hates.<< Which makes Grumman the pre-eminent verosopath since he is always determined to destroy any discussion. Not to mention the pattern and habit of his consistent name-calling, which seems to be what he conceives to be reasoned discussion. From atlas Fri Jan 16 16:48:57 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:48:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401161701.i0GH12E1025102@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <006501c3dc73$02c54ba0$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005101c3dc7a$8b535140$739edf18@atlas> Grumman wrote: > A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy > it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some > truth he hates. How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning 'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. Mike Geary From JforJames Fri Jan 16 20:43:25 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE Message-ID: In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his > methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather > than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. > > I only glanced through the article you posted, but my reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit readers and traditional critics against those who would employ quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background information from texts. This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc. It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Sat Jan 17 01:49:47 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:49:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mars needs war! In-Reply-To: <004b01c3da3e$12d76780$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> References: <004b01c3da3e$12d76780$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <20040117014709.O59000@kpaul.spinweb.net> "mars needs war!" the leader of the UN- free world said to the world today. an aidperson quickly corrected him, saying mars needed women, not war, with a weak, unsure attempt at a smile. nonsense the lead- er said, the ladd- er of jacobs land- ed. editor's notes, the morning news and coffee and the weird brain- waves of a poet translating our time, our era, the beginning of the information age or the tail end of it - mars needs regime change the little green men can work for free here on good old planet earth. gotta mine those carbon crystals from sister mars - now politic- ally correct, un- like the French. meanwhile the widows and the children are hungry and abused, a -lone w/out recourse to a loan, an escape is very unlikely for them to attempt to boldly reach the stars. mars needs poets. the poetopath, -kpaul (at) mallasch.com p.s. i don't like the aidperson. can't find the word i want at the moment, tho ;) From grahamd Sat Jan 17 13:30:37 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:30:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuffed Message-ID: While traveling over the holidays, I amused myself with a most pleasant little anthology in the Everyman Pocket Poets series, *Eat, Drink, and Be Merry*. Very tasty, with the usual eclectic mix of poets from Catullus to Wendy Cope. I do like these pocket poets volumes, many of which seem to be edited by Peter Washington. In addition the thematic anthologies (food, gardens, marriage, the blues, etc.), they also have very good selections of Whitman, Stevens, Hardy, Plath, and others. Perfect for taking into dentists' waiting rooms and such. Here's a sample from the food anthology. Hogmanay Murdo gave the cock meal damped with whiskey. It stood on tiptoe, crowed eight times and fell flat on its beak. Later, Murdo, after the fifth verse of The Isle of Mull, fell, glass in hand, flat on his back--doing in six hours what the cock had done in two minutes. I was there. And now I see the cock crowing with Murdo's face and Murdo's wings flapping as down he went. It was a long way home. --Norman MacCaig. *Eat, Drink, and Be Merry: Poems about Food and Drink*, ed. Peter Washington. Everyman's Library Pocket Poets, 2003. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From hruggier Sat Jan 17 13:37:21 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:37:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuffed References: Message-ID: <001901c3dd28$f1f39a50$430a9942@Helen> Perfect timing - there's a Burns Night celebration next weekend - perhaps I'll read this for the recitation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:30 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Stuffed > While traveling over the holidays, I amused myself with a most pleasant > little anthology in the Everyman Pocket Poets series, *Eat, Drink, and Be > Merry*. Very tasty, with the usual eclectic mix of poets from Catullus to > Wendy Cope. > > I do like these pocket poets volumes, many of which seem to be edited by > Peter Washington. In addition the thematic anthologies (food, gardens, > marriage, the blues, etc.), they also have very good selections of Whitman, > Stevens, Hardy, Plath, and others. Perfect for taking into dentists' > waiting rooms and such. > > Here's a sample from the food anthology. > > > Hogmanay > > Murdo gave the cock meal > damped with whiskey. It stood > on tiptoe, crowed eight times > and fell flat on its beak. > > Later, Murdo, after the fifth verse > of The Isle of Mull, > fell, glass in hand, > flat on his back--doing in six hours > what the cock had done > in two minutes. > > I was there. And now I see > the cock crowing with Murdo's face > and Murdo's wings flapping > as down he went. > > It was a long way home. > > --Norman MacCaig. *Eat, Drink, and Be Merry: Poems about Food and Drink*, > ed. Peter Washington. Everyman's Library Pocket Poets, 2003. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From elemenope Sat Jan 17 03:11:36 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:11:36 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its meaning and usages. I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > Mike Geary (An elephant is painting a landscape on MoneyWorld TV in which the sky is blue and over the land. It seems we require a new word for an animal that can create art in spite of the common belief that such a feat is impossible. [PETAphiles will probably try to get in on that action somehow, either by unionizing the elephant artists {I have in my library a book which shows cats painting some interesting abstract expressionist canvases.} or having their handlers/owners arrested for slave labor.]) Richard Dillon >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Bob Grumman) > 2. Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (ELEMENOPE Productions) > 3. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Marcus Bales) > 4. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Bob Grumman) > 5. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Marcus Bales) > 6. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Michael Geary) > 7. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (JforJames at aol.com) > 8. mars needs war! (kpaul mallasch) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:51:15 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> >> > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > from mine. >> >> Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> who disagreed with him. >> >> Marcus >> >His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >absurdity." > >--Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:45:24 +0800 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: ELEMENOPE Productions >Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Bob, > >Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >denotes. As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >intellectually. >> >>>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > >who disagreed with him > > >Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American >Enterprise think tank. > >Richard Dillon > > >-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> > >> > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > > from mine. >> > >> > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> > who disagreed with him. >> > Marcus > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 12:51, Bob Grumman wrote: >> His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >> absurdity."<< > >And once again the very best you're capable of is name-calling, >apparently. How sad. > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:55:00 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >> denotes. > >A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy >it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >truth he hates. You can identify one by his methods, which I hope to make a >full list of sometime. Usually he pretends to be sincerely seeking the >truth when entering a discussion, so Bloom probably was too forthright for a >genuine verosopath in this instance. Bloom is a thick-headed reactionary >but probably not a verosopath. > >>As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >> insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >> intellectually. > >The latter--but with an awareness that it would be taken as an insult and >not minding that it would be. > >> >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> >who disagreed with him >> >> >> Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise >think tank. >> >> Richard Dillon > >I'd say (without knowing a great deal about either man) that they both >believe in and try to promote (unpopular) fractions of truths they seem to >think are full truths. I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. > >--Bob G. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:42:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 15:55, Bob Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >> destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the >> acceptance of some truth he hates.<< > >Which makes Grumman the pre-eminent verosopath since he is always >determined to destroy any discussion. Not to mention the pattern and >habit of his consistent name-calling, which seems to be what he >conceives to be reasoned discussion. > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Michael Geary" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:48:57 -0600 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > >Mike Geary > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: JforJames at aol.com >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:25 EST >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >> methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >> than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. >> >> >I only glanced through the article you posted, but my >reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit >readers and traditional critics against those who would employ >quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background >information from texts. >This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments >and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order >to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc. >It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic >critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism. >Finnegan > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:1= >2 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'm disappointed that Moretti d= >idn't extoll his
>methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather= >
>than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use.
>
>

>I only glanced through the article you posted, but my
>reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit
>readers and traditional critics against those who would employ
>quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background
>information from texts.
>This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments
>and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order
>to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc.
>It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic
>critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism.
>Finnegan
>
> >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:49:47 -0500 (EST) >From: kpaul mallasch >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] mars needs war! >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >"mars needs war!" >the leader of the UN- >free world said to >the world today. > >an aidperson >quickly corrected him, >saying mars needed women, >not war, with a weak, >unsure attempt at >a smile. > >nonsense the lead- >er said, the ladd- >er of jacobs land- >ed. > >editor's notes, >the morning news >and coffee and >the weird brain- >waves of a poet >translating our >time, our era, >the beginning of >the information >age or the tail >end of it - mars >needs regime change >the little green men >can work for free here >on good old planet earth. >gotta mine those carbon >crystals from sister >mars - now politic- >ally correct, un- >like the French. > >meanwhile the widows >and the children are >hungry and abused, a >-lone w/out recourse >to a loan, an escape >is very unlikely for >them to attempt to >boldly reach the >stars. mars >needs poets. > > >the poetopath, >-kpaul (at) >mallasch.com > >p.s. i don't like the aidperson. can't find the word i want at the moment, >tho ;) > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 17 16:41:18 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:41:18 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000e01c3dd42$a4200dd0$2a808051@MyPC> From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" > The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. > Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its > meaning and usages. > I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. Can I add to this? I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. Something to do with the context it which it appeared. Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Sat Jan 17 17:11:30 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:11:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <036301c3dd46$dd5350e0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. > Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its > meaning and usages. > I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. Aye. Verosophy from Philosophy, and Verosopath from Psychopath. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Jan 17 17:13:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:13:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401171701.i0HH1JE1017230@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <000e01c3dd42$a4200dd0$2a808051@MyPC> Message-ID: <036f01c3dd47$185cb050$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Can I add to this? > > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > > Robin Hamilton Others have had this problem. I guess it should be spelled, "verOsopath." --Bob G. From marcus Sat Jan 17 21:09:31 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:09:31 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE Message-ID: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > Robin Hamilton That's how I initially mis-read it, too, and it seemed as appropriate an appellation for Mr Grumman in that guise as in its guise as a hater of truth -- because Mr Grumman is obviously both. He hates verse, as witness his various attempts to avoid it in his ridiculous "mathemaku", which remind everyone who sees them of not-too-clever 7th graders making basic grammar jokes, and he hates truth, as witness his insistence on avoiding any serious discussion of his so-called "taxonomy", particularly his claims to being "objective". Objectionable is more like it. From antrobin Sat Jan 17 21:19:47 2004 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:19:47 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000001c3dd69$923c8450$29371c40@Emily> Now now Marcus--maybe it's not technically name-calling, but I think "hater of truth" is a slur, as is calling Mr. Grumman's chosen form of poetic expression "ridiculous." The comparison to not-too-clever 7th graders is, I think, an indirect form of namecalling. That said, I'm not too convinced by Bob's taxonomy--some of his "types" of poetry seem, well, okay, here I go--"ridiculous." However, your continual baiting and jabbing under the guise of "discussion" is pretty irritating too. It's abundantly clear that you're not interested in finding any sort of common ground or understanding between yourself and Mr. Grumman. You simply enjoy telling other people they're wrong. Wow! I can't believe I delurked to write THIS. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of marcus at designerglass.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 6:10 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > Robin Hamilton That's how I initially mis-read it, too, and it seemed as appropriate an appellation for Mr Grumman in that guise as in its guise as a hater of truth -- because Mr Grumman is obviously both. He hates verse, as witness his various attempts to avoid it in his ridiculous "mathemaku", which remind everyone who sees them of not-too-clever 7th graders making basic grammar jokes, and he hates truth, as witness his insistence on avoiding any serious discussion of his so-called "taxonomy", particularly his claims to being "objective". Objectionable is more like it. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Sat Jan 17 22:08:31 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:08:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > I continually misread it as "versopath", 'hater of verse'. > > Something to do with the context it which it appeared. > > Robin Hamilton > > That's how I initially mis-read it, too, and it seemed as appropriate an > appellation for Mr Grumman in that guise as in its guise as a hater of truth -- > because Mr Grumman is obviously both. He hates verse, as witness his various > attempts to avoid it in his ridiculous "mathemaku", which remind everyone who > sees them of not-too-clever 7th graders making basic grammar jokes, and he > hates truth, as witness his insistence on avoiding any serious discussion of > his so-called "taxonomy", particularly his claims to being "objective". > Objectionable is more like it. --Marcus Bales Whew, I'm reely realing from this onslaught. Probly won't be able to post again for a couple weeks. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Sat Jan 17 22:48:44 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:48:44 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> > Whew, I'm reely realing from this onslaught. Probly won't be able to post > again for a couple weeks. > > --Bob G. Ah, 'Cmon Bob, don't disappoint your fan-club. The day wouldn't be the same if I didn't wake-up to a few posts between you and Marcus. I read them religiously. It's like hitting your head with a hammer -- so nice when you stop. So after I've read them, I can get on with the day knowing it can only get better. Robin From bobgrumman Sun Jan 18 06:21:33 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 06:21:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> Message-ID: <011a01c3ddb5$3bada280$5eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > Whew, I'm reely realing from this onslaught. Probly won't be able to post > > again for a couple weeks. > > > > --Bob G. > > Ah, 'Cmon Bob, don't disappoint your fan-club. The day wouldn't be the same > if I didn't wake-up to a few posts between you and Marcus. Wel, I doe no,Rbn. I still feal very poorly, & I slid my throat yesterday after I poseded, to. So it will be hard. But maybe I can. I will tri my best. > I read them religiously. It's like hitting your head with a hammer -- so > nice when you stop. So after I've read them, I can get on with the day > knowing it can only get better. Now your making me unhapy again, Robn? That sownz like making fun. But Ig es if its about my actions insted of about ME, its OK. --Bb. From robin.hamilton2 Sun Jan 18 07:38:20 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:38:20 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> <011a01c3ddb5$3bada280$5eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003601c3ddbf$f4e694f0$201e8051@MyPC> > Now your making me unhapy again, Robn? That sownz like making fun. But Ig > es if its about my actions insted of about ME, its OK. > > --Bb. Hey, Bob, how could you *possibly* imagine I'd fun someone bleeding to deaf from a slid throat. What did you slid it with anyways -- Occam's razor? Chirs, Robin From marcus Sun Jan 18 11:54:00 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:54:00 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE Message-ID: <200401181639.i0IGdGE1012420@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Now now Marcus--maybe it's not technically name-calling, but I think > "hater of truth" is a slur,...<< My point exactly -- Mr Grumman has used it as a slur, as name-calling, consistently over these last weeks. Address your admonitions about it to him, if you please. My comments are to point out that by Mr Grumman's own definition of his own term he fits it well. It seems to me that his whole "verosopath" rut is a transparent bit of projection. > as is calling Mr. Grumman's chosen form of > poetic expression "ridiculous." The comparison to not-too-clever 7th > graders is, I think, an indirect form of namecalling.< I pointed out that the texts Mr Grumman offers are viewed by those who look at them as the kinds of basic grammar jokes made by not-too-clever 7th graders to make a vivid description of the texts themselves, not to characterize Mr Grumman himself. Calling someone "a verosopath" is surely namecalling; but comparing their work to the work of not-too-bright 7th graders is not -- after all, he can always try to do better work. It's the difference between the criticism of the person and the work -- and it's not wise to so identify with one's work that any criticism of that work is taken as criticism of the person. > That said, I'm not too convinced by Bob's taxonomy--some of his "types" > of poetry seem, well, okay, here I go--"ridiculous."<< Just so -- a criticism of the work, not the person. But Mr Grumman will undoubtedly feel that you have made a personal attack, here, because he has a long record of demonstrating that he cannot separate his self from his opinions, or his self from his work. > However, your continual baiting and jabbing under the guise of > "discussion" is pretty irritating too. It's abundantly clear that > you're not interested in finding any sort of common ground or > understanding between yourself and Mr. Grumman. You simply enjoy > telling other people they're wrong.<< I'm not interested in finding common ground with the flat earth people, either. So what? When there are two conflicting points of view it is not necessary that the most correct view must lie between them. Some views are, well, just ridiculous. It may be that everyone else reading this agrees with me, and that Mr Grumman's views are roundly considered as flat-earth as I consider them -- but no one else besides me has said so until you have just now offered that "some of his 'types' of poetry seem ... 'ridiculous.'" I've said a good deal about Mr Grumman's views and his claims for his taxonomy. It would be a good thing to hear others weigh in on whether Mr Grumman should provide a good deal more in the way of defining a scale by which to measure types of poetry, and a tool to use that would measure on that scale, in order to support his claim that his "taxonomy" is "objective", or whether his use of words and locutions such as "objective" and "taxonomy" and "four and only four" and the like are perfectly acceptable metaphors meant to be understood not at all as claims to any sort of scientific accuracy, or whether his use of those words and locutions are, in the view of his supporters, actually meant to make a scientific claim. Marcus From bobgrumman Sun Jan 18 13:40:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:40:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <200401180155.i0I1t2E1013071@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <043b01c3dd70$5b9e4300$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <008e01c3dd75$f88bf5e0$2a808051@MyPC> <011a01c3ddb5$3bada280$5eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003601c3ddbf$f4e694f0$201e8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <006901c3ddf2$812251c0$2aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > Now your making me unhapy again, Robn? That sownz like making fun. But > Iges if its about my actions insted of about ME, its OK. > > > > --Bb. > > Hey, Bob, how could you *possibly* imagine I'd fun someone bleeding to deaf > from a slid throat. I wodnlt put it pass you Rbin, but you funned me be4 you know I slid my throte I mean throat. > What did you slid it with anyways -- Occam's razor? I ddint reely slid it, I just giv it a chop with my scrudriver. It ddnit even go al the way in which I'm glad because now I know it isnt' me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most importantest things I done the last 15 yeers, so I am "OKieDokie" with my life agan. I even made another mathemaku toady only its not finush. Its spelled very good, tho. So far!!!!! PS Mt Doo helps a lot!!!!!! yor frend B,ob > Chirs, > > Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From PaulandPeggy Sun Jan 18 14:08:48 2004 From: PaulandPeggy (Paul and Peggy Stouffer) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:08:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c3ddf6$814aeb90$6701a8c0@stouffer4> Please unsubscribe. Paul and Peggy Stouffer -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of ELEMENOPE Productions Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 3:12 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE The word, "Verosopath," seems now to have taken on a life of its own. Mike Geary has indisputably expanded what we understand of its meaning and usages. I believe that Bob Grumman was looking over to "Psychopath" for an echo. >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > Mike Geary (An elephant is painting a landscape on MoneyWorld TV in which the sky is blue and over the land. It seems we require a new word for an animal that can create art in spite of the common belief that such a feat is impossible. [PETAphiles will probably try to get in on that action somehow, either by unionizing the elephant artists {I have in my library a book which shows cats painting some interesting abstract expressionist canvases.} or having their handlers/owners arrested for slave labor.]) Richard Dillon >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Bob Grumman) > 2. Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (ELEMENOPE Productions) > 3. Re: Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >(Marcus Bales) > 4. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Bob Grumman) > 5. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Marcus Bales) > 6. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (Michael Geary) > 7. Re: Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE (JforJames at aol.com) > 8. mars needs war! (kpaul mallasch) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:51:15 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> >> > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > from mine. >> >> Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> who disagreed with him. >> >> Marcus >> >His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >absurdity." > >--Bob G. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:45:24 +0800 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: ELEMENOPE Productions >Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Bob, > >Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >denotes. As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >intellectually. >> >>>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person > >who disagreed with him > > >Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American >Enterprise think tank. > >Richard Dillon > > >-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 14:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [CWUHM-L:587] Studying Literature by >the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > On 16 Jan 2004 at 10:00, Bob Grumman wrote: >> > > > I suspect Moretti's methods have the same problem as Grumman's. >> > >> > > Not true: his verosopath, Harold Bloom, is substantially different >> > > from mine. >> > >> > Happy as one may be to be put into Bloom's category of erudition, >> > wit, and enthusiasm for literature, I was pointing out the problems >> > with Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> > who disagreed with him. >> > Marcus > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 12:51, Bob Grumman wrote: >> His methods' only problem is the morons who call those methods "an >> absurdity."<< > >And once again the very best you're capable of is name-calling, >apparently. How sad. > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:55:00 -0500 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Please define for our edification what the term, "Verosopath," >> denotes. > >A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to destroy >it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >truth he hates. You can identify one by his methods, which I hope to make a >full list of sometime. Usually he pretends to be sincerely seeking the >truth when entering a discussion, so Bloom probably was too forthright for a >genuine verosopath in this instance. Bloom is a thick-headed reactionary >but probably not a verosopath. > >>As I understand it, the word is not being employed to >> insult Bloom or Bales, but to act as a shorthand for how they behave >> intellectually. > >The latter--but with an awareness that it would be taken as an insult and >not minding that it would be. > >> >>Moretti's METHODS, not with the character or calibre of person >> >who disagreed with him >> >> >> Professor Moretti reminds me of Charles Murray of the American Enterprise >think tank. >> >> Richard Dillon > >I'd say (without knowing a great deal about either man) that they both >believe in and try to promote (unpopular) fractions of truths they seem to >think are full truths. I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. > >--Bob G. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:42:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >On 16 Jan 2004 at 15:55, Bob Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >> destroy it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the >> acceptance of some truth he hates.<< > >Which makes Grumman the pre-eminent verosopath since he is always >determined to destroy any discussion. Not to mention the pattern and >habit of his consistent name-calling, which seems to be what he >conceives to be reasoned discussion. > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Michael Geary" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:48:57 -0600 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Grumman wrote: >> A verosopath is a person whose main interest in any discussion is to >destroy >> it, usually because he fears it may help lead to the acceptance of some >> truth he hates. > >How disappointing. I assumed it was concocted from the Latin 'vers' meaning >'turn' which, in the form 'verso' in English, often has the meaning of the >back of a coin -- more associated with 'tails', I should think, than with >heads given our cultural prejudice for being on top. 'Path', of course, >comes from the Greek 'pathos' meaning 'emotion, feeling, pain, suffering, >etc.'. Thus I took 'versopath' to mean a pain in the ass, or arse, I should >probably say so as not to offend any PETAphiles. > >Mike Geary > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: JforJames at aol.com >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:43:25 EST >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> I'm disappointed that Moretti didn't extoll his >> methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather >> than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use. >> >> >I only glanced through the article you posted, but my >reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit >readers and traditional critics against those who would employ >quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background >information from texts. >This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments >and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order >to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc. >It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic >critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism. >Finnegan > > >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:56:1= >2 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'm disappointed that Moretti d= >idn't extoll his
>methods as new tools to add to those already used in literary studies rather= >
>than, it would seem, new tools to replace those already in use.
>
>

>I only glanced through the article you posted, but my
>reaction is more sanguine than the author's. He wants to pit
>readers and traditional critics against those who would employ
>quantitative and analytical methods to elicit background
>information from texts.
>This is not a zero-sum game. For some time now, fragments
>and texts of obscure origin have been analyzed in order
>to point to authorship, time period, language roots, etc.
>It's not like these things are going replace the idiosyncratic
>critical perspective, or make reading an anachronism.
>Finnegan
>
> >--part1_a8.272bdabc.2d39ed3d_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:49:47 -0500 (EST) >From: kpaul mallasch >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] mars needs war! >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >"mars needs war!" >the leader of the UN- >free world said to >the world today. > >an aidperson >quickly corrected him, >saying mars needed women, >not war, with a weak, >unsure attempt at >a smile. > >nonsense the lead- >er said, the ladd- >er of jacobs land- >ed. > >editor's notes, >the morning news >and coffee and >the weird brain- >waves of a poet >translating our >time, our era, >the beginning of >the information >age or the tail >end of it - mars >needs regime change >the little green men >can work for free here >on good old planet earth. >gotta mine those carbon >crystals from sister >mars - now politic- >ally correct, un- >like the French. > >meanwhile the widows >and the children are >hungry and abused, a >-lone w/out recourse >to a loan, an escape >is very unlikely for >them to attempt to >boldly reach the >stars. mars >needs poets. > > >the poetopath, >-kpaul (at) >mallasch.com > >p.s. i don't like the aidperson. can't find the word i want at the moment, >tho ;) > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Sun Jan 18 14:40:10 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:40:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Salt=20Publishing=20Update=20January=202004=A0?= Message-ID: <1e.20a92796.2d3c3b1a@aol.com> Subj: Salt Publishing Update January 2004? Date: 1/16/2004 3:17:52 PM Eastern Standard Time From: cemery at saltpublishing.com To: info at saltpublishing.com Sent from the Internet (Details) SALT PUBLISHING UPDATE -- JANUARY 2004 ? ? * New online bookstore ? ? * Updated home page ? ? * New international events calendar ? ? * New international literary news page Please visit our enhanced Web site to find out more about our new developments. Search our book series for the latest Salt titles, or find out what readings or performances are taking place each month by Salt authors and contributors, or check out the latest literary news and views from around the world. Salt now provides a space for the literary community and its international audience to stay in touch with the latest writing and publications, ideas and projects. The Saline news pages are open access and anyone can join the bulletin board and post queries and comments, as well as news of new titles and major events. If you wish you can now buy Salt titles online at our new bookstore, and take advantage of special offers and deals each month. Like 20% off highlight titles right now! NEW ONLINE BOOKSTORE http://www.saltpublishing.com/shop/index.php (All major credit cards are accepted via PayPal or WorldPay.) UPDATED HOME PAGE http://www.saltpublishing.com/index.htm NEW INTERNATIONAL EVENTS CALENDAR http://www.saltpublishing.com/events/index.php (Online calendar of readings and tours) NEW INTERNATIONAL LITERARY NEWS http://www.saltpublishing.com/saline/index. (Open access bulletin board.) If you wish to be removed from this alerting service please reply to this email with the word "remove" in the subject header. Best wishes for 2004 Chris _____________________________________________________ Chris Hamilton-Emery Editor Salt Publishing PO Box 937, Great Wilbraham PDO Cambridge, CB1 5JX, UK tel: +44 (0)1223 880929 (direct and voicemail) mobile: 07799 054889 email: cemery at saltpublishing.com web: http://www.saltpublishing.com ____________________________________________________ ** Geraldine Monk "Selected Poems" available now! ISBN 1876857692 ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sun Jan 18 15:43:05 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:43:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gary Snyder, "How to Make Stew . . ." Message-ID: How to Make Stew in the Pinacate Desert Recipe for Locke & Drum A. J. Bayless market bent wire roller basket buy up parsnips, onion, carrot, rutabaga and potato, bell green pepper, & nine cuts of dark beef shank. They run there on their legs, that makes meat tasty. Seven at night in Tucson, get some bisquick for the dumplings. Have some bacon. Go to Hadley's in the kitchen right beside the frying steak--Diana on the phone--get a little plastic bag from Drum-- Fill it up with tarragon and chili; four bay leaves; black pepper corns and basil; powdered oregano, something free, maybe about two teaspoon worth of salt. Now down in Sonora, Pinacate country, build a fire of Ocotillo, broken twigs and bits of ironwood, in an open ring of lava: rake some coals aside (and if you're smart) to windward, keep the other half ablaze for heat and light. Set Drum's fourteen-inch dutch oven with three legs across the embers. Now put in the strips of bacon. In another pan have all the vegetables cleaned up and peeled and sliced. Cut the beef shank meat up small and set the bone aside. Throw in the beef shank meat, And stir it while it fries hot, lots of ash and sizzle--singe your brow-- Like Locke says almost burn it--then add water from the jeep can-- add the little bag of herbs--cook it all five minutes more--and then throw in the pan of all the rest. Cover it up with big hot lid all heavy, sit and wait, or drink bud- weiser beer. And also mix the dumpling mix aside, some water in some bisquick, finally drop that off the spoon into the stew. And let it cook ten minutes more and lift the black pot off the fire to set aside another good ten minutes, Dish it up and eat it with a spoon, sitting on a poncho in the dark. 13.XII.1964 --Gary Snyder fr. *The Back Country* [New York: New Directions, 1968] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html From barry.spacks Sun Jan 18 16:16:35 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:16:35 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: An Essence of Buddhism Book In-Reply-To: <200401181701.i0IH12E1023495@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040118131001.00b7de48@incoming.verizon.net> My wife and I were involved with the 7 year editing process this book went through. I post the announcement below with the thought that some on the list might be interested in the gentle, selfless path it reveals (largely through Q&A with the Lama). Barry ********* Change of Heart: The Bodhisattva Peace Training of Chagdud Tulku Lama Shenpen Drolma (editor) Now Available from Padma Publishing It?s a beautiful book, and will be deeply appreciated by people from all walks of life, especially anyone who longs for compassionate tools for change in these times of conflict and divisiveness. From the back cover: "An ordinary being cannot even begin to fathom the infinite compassionate action of a bodhisattva, so only a bodhisattva can provide such guidance. Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, in my opinion, was a true bodhisattva who worked tirelessly to eliminate suffering in many different parts of the world. I rejoice that his teachings have been compiled into this book, and it is my aspiration that every single word of his will be put into practice."--Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche "Chagdud Rinpoche was an outstanding Buddhist master. In Change of Heart he hands us an extraordinary gift--a wise and gentle guide to the compassionatepath of the bodhisattvas. Confronting directly the dilemmas and uncertainty facing people today, Rinpoche shows how anyone at all can follow this training and use its methods to discover inner peace, reduce suffering, deal with violence and aggression, awaken the Good Heart, and so live in the world in such a way as to benefit all those around them." --Sogyal Rinpoche BOCOH-PP $16.95 Online Price $13.56 http://www.tibetantreasures.com/ From a December 2003 issue of PUBLISHER'S WEEKLY: CHANGE OF HEART: The Bodhisattva Peace Training of Chagdud Tulku Chagdud Tulku, a beloved Tibetan Rinpoche ("precious one") who died in 2002, offers wisdom on becoming a bodhisattva, or spiritual warrior of compassion. His student, Lama Shenpen Drolma, has edited this collection from a variety of talks and training seminars Tulku gave during the last 14 years of his life. All individuals, Tulku believed, can benefit from Bodhisattva Peace Training, his system of teaching others to understand human interconnectedness and alleviate suffering. Tulku explores ways to develop equanimity, transform an angry heart, awaken compassion, understand the root causes of suffering, contemplate impermanence and purify oneself from within. Most of the book adopts a question-and-answer format, with dialogue taken from transcripts of Tulku's real training seminars. This give-and-take is an inherent part of the book's success in illuminating difficult teachings and placing them into some kind of practical context. In the anger chapter, for example, the students challenge Tulku to unpack his statements that "anger is never useful" or that "there is no such thing as the right to be angry." One student, an advocate for battered women, believes that abused persons can and should become angry about their circumstances, and that anger can be a catalyst to change. Tulku answers that anger is a fleeting response that cannot be depended upon to change unjust situations, and in fact usually compounds them. There is some repetition of ideas throughout the book, but considering its origin in Tulku's unedited talks, it coheres very well as a seamless whole. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman Mon Jan 19 07:00:43 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 07:00:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c3de83$e17689b0$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Heather Nagamai's "The Agenda" - Rube Goldberg Objectivism & the furious stasis of local government An intro to Antennae Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: Mike Snider The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar "Write Like Soap," a poem on which one could stake a career in Rod Smith's Protective Immediacy (Four free books from Roof Books @ the EPC) An opportunity to feel ambivalent: Twentieth-Century American Poetics, edited by Dana Gioia, David Mason & Meg Schoerke (how new formalism neglects poets born in the 1930s) Density, density, density - What is it & what is its opposite? (reading Armantrout, Berssenbrugge, Godfrey & Corbett) Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout The gun as the verb in the syntax of cinema - shortchanging the reader/viewer in House of Sand & Fog Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry Dickinson - Niedecker - Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada's ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From marcus Mon Jan 19 08:45:42 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 08:45:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <006901c3ddf2$812251c0$2aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <400B9936.12743.23983E@localhost> On 18 Jan 2004 at 13:40, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most importantest > things I done the last 15 yeers ... This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a mud pie that it will be edible. The issue isn't how long or how hard you've worked on it -- it's whether your claims seem reasonable: and they don't. I'm sorry you've worked for 15 years on a claim that turns out on examination to have little merit, but so have the people who believe Shakespeare was written by someone else. Marcus From bobgrumman Mon Jan 19 09:35:12 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:35:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE References: <400B9936.12743.23983E@localhost> Message-ID: <004001c3de99$73af80b0$56efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most importantest > > things I done the last 15 yeers ... > > This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a > mud pie that it will be edible. No, moron, it's the argument that if you tell a person that something he's devoted a major part of his life to is something that could be bettered by a clever seventh-grader, you are being rather less kind to him than you would if you have simply called him a moron. Of course, I recognize that you didn't say my mathemaku were something a not-too-clever seventh-grader could do, only that everyone who looked at them would say that. I also recognize that your opinion is ludicrous, as are all your opinions, which is no reflection on you, personally, nor intended to be insulting. And now I'll withdraw from this exchange. Wouldn't want any more lurkers to unsubscribe because of my name-calling. --Bob G. From marcus Mon Jan 19 09:59:44 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:59:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <004001c3de99$73af80b0$56efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <400BAA90.10883.676CAA@localhost> > > > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > > > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most > > > importantest things I done the last 15 yeers ... > > > > This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a > > mud pie that it will be edible. On 19 Jan 2004 at 9:35, Bob Grumman wrote: > No, moron, ...<< More name-calling. Is this really the best you can do, Bob? From mandolin Mon Jan 19 10:04:43 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:04:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog In-Reply-To: <000001c3de83$e17689b0$6401a8c0@Dell> References: <000001c3de83$e17689b0$6401a8c0@Dell> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Ron wrote: > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > > Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: > Mike Snider Not bizarre, Ron, just too flip, and I've apologized publicly for that. You spent the first two thirds of your otherwise very good January 2nd post ( http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 2004_01_01_ronsilliman_archive.html#107304337280793398 ) in a truly bizarre attempt at a typographical demonstration that the poetic line is inherent in the shapes of letters, and you've ignored subsequent discussions of the issue here ( http://www.ksilem.com/weblog/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=372 ) and here ( http://www.ksilem.com/weblog/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=374 ). If you'd care to actually talk about it, fine. Otherwise, pfft! Michael From marcus Mon Jan 19 10:06:26 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:06:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studying Literature by the Numbers-SMILE In-Reply-To: <004001c3de99$73af80b0$56efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <400BAC22.4954.6D91DD@localhost> > > > ... I'm glad because now I know it isnt' > > > me that's 7th grade excep not clever but onli the most > > > importantest things I done the last 15 yeers ... > > > > This is the same argument as that if you work for days on making a > > mud pie that it will be edible. On 19 Jan 2004 at 9:35, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... it's the argument that if you tell a person that something > he's devoted a major part of his life to is something that could be > bettered by a clever seventh-grader, you are being rather less kind to > him than you would if you have simply called him a moron.<< Well, isn't that exactly the same argument someone who's spent their lives researching evidence that Francis Bacon or someone else other than Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare could make? That merely by virtue of the mere effort and time they've invested they must be right? This is just another example of the specious kind of claim you habitually put forward. One imagines you are probably one of those who also claim Shakespeare was written by someone else, or that the moon landing never happened, or the like, to judge by the kind and quality of argument you bring to this. From Cadaly Mon Jan 19 12:12:21 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:12:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading January 22 in San Francisco Message-ID: <1e2.17ac5ce6.2d3d69f5@aol.com> Catherine Daly will be reading at the Geary St. Reading Series at Caf? Melroy, 835 Geary Street, SF, Thursday, January 22, at 7 pm with Denise Newman and Laynie Browne. Thanks, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Mon Jan 19 16:42:15 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:42:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for papers - short story Message-ID: <004401c3ded5$1ae5e460$13607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> >From: Flys Junquera Carmen [mailto:carmen.flys at uah.es] >Sent: maandag 19 januari 2004 14:14 8th International Conference on the Short Story in English October 2831, 2004 Universidad de Alcal? Alcal? de Henares, Madrid, Spain CALL FOR PAPERS The organization of the Eighth International Conference on the Short Story in English issues a call for papers to be presented at the conference, to be held at the Universidad de Alcal?, Alcala de Henares, Spain from October 28-31, 2004. The conference is organized by the Institute for North American Studies. The aim of this conference is to bring together writers and scholars, theory and practice, on the short story. Proposals should be 300-500 words and submitted by Feb. 15, 2004. Proposals should be written on the form downloaded from the website and sent by email to both co-directors of the conference. E-mails are: short.story at uah.es (Carmen Flys) and MauriceL at mail.uca.edu (Maurice Lee). Fax.Numbers are: Flys: (34)91-885-5248, and Lee: (1) 501-450-5185 Guest Writers expected: Richard Ford, Sandra Cisneros, Amy Tan, Cristina Garcia, Ali Smith, Gish Jen, Grace Paley, Bharati Mukerjee, Clark Blaise, Anne Proulx, Ernest Gaines, Robert Olen Butler, Francine Prose, Jayne Anne Phillips, Michael Chabon, Gayle Elliott, Katie Singer, Vijay Lakshmi, Claire Larriere, Junot Diaz, Z.Z. Packer, Nicole Brossard, Minoli Salgado, Cyril Dabydeen, and Wilson Harris. Suggested Topics are (but are not limited to) Crossing generic boundaries in the short story Crossing any other type of boundaries in the short story Genre slippage Short story cycle Closure in short story Rhetoric in short story Teaching of the short story Short story and popular culture Short story and cultural linkages Short shorts Magical Realism Short fiction theory Short story and film Short story and music Hypertext short stories Trickster strategies in short story Race, class and gender in short story Short story as autobiographies Code-switching in short story Metafiction and short story Translating the short story Writing the short story Short stories and the environmental crisis Realism, Romanticism, Naturalism and the short story Post-modern, Post-colonial short story The role of the short story in the creation of literature The editing and anthologizing of short stories The teaching of short stories: new approaches The problem with publication and publishers Short story history outside the United States Both individual papers and organized panels are welcome. Papers should be limited to 15 minutes (9 double-spaced pages maximum) Selected papers will be published For more information check our website or write NOTE: Notification of acceptance of papers will be made by mid April. Definite acceptance hinges on registration. Participants registering after June 1 are not guaranteed a slot on a panel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Mon Jan 19 17:30:28 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:30:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Leslie Scalapino, 5 sections from "hmmm" Message-ID: <002001c3dedb$d6f52520$38e8c043@computer> Considering certain emotions such as falling asleep, I said, (especially when one is standing on one?s feet), as being similar to fear, or anger, or fainting. I do. I feel sleep in me is induced by blood forced into veins of my brain. I can?t focus. My tongue is numb and so large it is like the long tongue of a calf or the tongue of a goat or of a sheep. What?s more, I bleat. Yes. In private, in bed, at night, with my head turned sideways on the pillow. No wonder I say that I love to sleep. Dog Suppose I was thinking something, say, not knowing I was thinking it, one day when I saw this dog before a house on the sidewalk, he not really sidling toward me, but more like loping sideways? Well, his tongue was lolling. And he was whining the way human heads loll forward in sleep and whinny. Something so hesitant and low More so, because it was a nasal sound, a neigh, the way we neigh, not thinking, when we are nervously mimicking a horse. So I mimicked him, the dog, right back. Really I was being flippant by pretending to gallop; and all the while not moving, and letting my tongue slip forward between my lips, really laughing. I know I am sick (someone will say to you) when all I can eat is something sweet. Also I sweat. Foods like fruits, eggs, or meat, are things I can?t eat. Furthermore, my disease is like rabies. I can?t swallow. I am obsequious, and on the other hand I fawn so easily on others, i.e. a man or a dog, that dogs will be led by me silently; for instance by my casting them a blank although a soft look. For the dog and I, I?ll say this at least ( here the person speaking to you purses his lips ), do yearn for each other . Isn?t it interesting how a woman like me pursues in man after man the same face or even the same foot or hand. Like the man who loved a woman for her sheared hair. Sure. Loved her, he said, because she was like a hyena. Or, like a mongrel or like a short-haired dog. i.e. When in bed, the man said, while calling her pet names by whistling, he liked to nip her with his lips. And once, during intercourse, when he told her what he would like most from her, the man said facetiously: I want you to say the word yip, as in the yelp of a young dog. Raising the hand in a certain way to the head Weeks later, one day when I did see the man whom I kept thinking I had been seeing everywhere (think of me staring at men to see if they had the same walk and the same hair as he had), I noticed that the nod that he directed to me (as he passed me on the sidewalk with a woman with him) was like the bob of a head buoyed up, but swept along so that he seemed to be swooning. Literally. So I looked back, after walking a block or so, to see his back. And, remembering the provokingly sullen look on the face of the woman he was with (as if she had him on a leash), I wanted to put my fingers between my lips; so that, by pretending to be sullen and by pulling my lip down into a grimace, I would actually be saluting him (in the sense of someone making a gesture such as raising the hand in a certain way to the head ) . --Leslie Scalapino fr. ?hmmm? in Considering how exaggerated music is [San Francisco: North Point Press, 1982 Hal Halvard Johnson halvard @earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Tue Jan 20 13:33:43 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:33:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner Message-ID: <004701c3df83$eed0b170$9a737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> I am proud to announce the last contributions to the Poets' Corner, with the following Poets: PHILIP NIKOLAYEV http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=74 ALMA LARSEN http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=75 DOUGLAS CLARK http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=78 JOSE' LEZAMA LIMA introduced and translated by MARK WEISS http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=77 New poems are featured by REBECCA SEIFERLE Operation Avalanche http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=362 BARRY ALPERT Blue & Green Aki K(aurismaki) http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=360 Film, Aki Kaurismaki http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=361 Talk, Luis Bunuel http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=380 The Sweetest Sound of Alan Berliner http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=381 Of Abigail Child http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=382 Film, Jonas Mekas http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=383 HALVARD JOHNSON Paris in Old Photographs http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=364 AL ARONOWITZ With an addition of Schmaikus: 8 -9 -10 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=171 RAM MEHTA An elegy on a mattress maker http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=384 From Cadaly Wed Jan 21 12:48:05 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:48:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] DWP Message-ID: DWP Free Journal distributor Damien Ober sustained a leg injury and is laid up. So far, we've amazingly been able to make free copies of the journal thanks to him, keeping the journal free for our readers. However, because of Damien's injury, our new issue will have to depend on the benevolence of friends. If you can photocopy the journal and leave copies at bookstores, coffee shops, newsstands and bars in your area, we would be grateful. The DWP distributes everywhere there are readers---public buses, health clubs, jury deliberation rooms. If you've got access to a photocopy machine, or know someone who does, and would like to distribute the journal in your area, give us an address and we'll ship a master copy right away. Forward this message to friends, office employees, college faculty and trusted state officials. The DWP is committed to providing free and open forums for artists, writers and performers. With the intent of getting quality literature into the hands of everyone, the DWP Free Journal has distributed through volunteers and members across the U.S. If you'd like to become a member, sign on to our mailing list at www.dissociatedwritersproject.com Brad Senning DWP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Wed Jan 21 20:22:16 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:22:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action Message-ID: <49.38aec265.2d407fc8@aol.com> Date: 1/20/2004 8:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time February 12 is the first anniversary of the White House Symposium on Poetry that prompted us to form Poets Against the War. It is therefore altogether fitting that we should celebrate that date with poetry readings across the United States (and indeed around the world) once again. We are asking poets everywhere to join with us to note that date and to include poems by Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes in public readings and discussions. These were the poets the White House attempted to co-opt for their symposium, which we successfully brought to a close. We think it entirely appropriate that wherever possible these readings be held in our libraries to acknowledge the thousands upon thousands of loyal librarians who have refused to comply with the unAmerican aspects of the Patriot Act that would turn librarians into de facto agents of Homeland Security and infringe upon every citizen's right to read in private. Please contact your local public library, or college or university library, and initiate an afternoon or evening of poetry and political straight talk to counter the lies, deceptions, and unAmerican activities of this administration. We ask each of you to consider what Whitman, Dickinson or Hughes might have said in response to the Patriot Act, to the proposed Patriot Act II, and to this administration's cynical efforts to spread fear and intimidation and to silence its detractors. We look forward to hearing from you, and we hope you will join us in designing an effective 2004 campaign to regain our Constitutional rights and re-establish a democratic government in these United States. -- Sam Hamill and the Board of Poets Against the War -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To change the email address we use to send you news or announcements about PAW, or to give us any additional info, please go to http://poetsagainstthewar.org/authoredit.asp. To unsubscribe: If you'd rather not receive any more email from us, please go to http://poetsagainstthewar.org/changesubscription.asp. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope Thu Jan 22 01:51:18 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:51:18 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action In-Reply-To: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------. I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions Bush Country, USA, America -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon doesn't need personally to defeat Sam Hamill, Anne Waldman and every other dink aluminum-foiled-pinhead-capped NOT-eternal mouth-foaming Deaniac pro-Castroite ersatz-humanitarian RadLib anti-American poetaster. The American vote this Autumn will isolate each of them into their cabal even further. If the Hamill/Waldman Fifth Columnist Clintonistas pro-IslamoTerrorist NewTotalitarians had continued to steal the country Sadamn's BaathHouse NaziReduxing Thrill Killers would be mixing BioBombs in Iraq today. When Hamill attempted to seize microphones in the White House to slander the President, the butler threw his ranting butt down the stairs. His version of this sordid tale Hamill would have you believe is self-serving, self-deluded duplicity. But that's been the RadLib strategy ever since their traitorous ideology was invented by Grasci, perfected in Frankfurt and shipped into elite academia to Harvard and Berkeley by the insidious hand of Herbert Marcuse and Senator Clitnon's teacher Commie-agitator ersatz-professor Saul Alinsky, then secreted into the White House by this traitorous insidious Enron-funding pro-third-term abortion lechery loving gang. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schroesd Thu Jan 22 15:29:05 2004 From: schroesd (Steven Schroeder) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:29:05 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <005001c3e126$61ca98a0$760e4044@STEVECOMPUTER> [New-Poetry] call to actionCongratulations on a first-rate piece of parody. ----- Original Message ----- From: ELEMENOPE Productions To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:51 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------. I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions Bush Country, USA, America -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon doesn't need personally to defeat Sam Hamill, Anne Waldman and every other dink aluminum-foiled-pinhead-capped NOT-eternal mouth-foaming Deaniac pro-Castroite ersatz-humanitarian RadLib anti-American poetaster. The American vote this Autumn will isolate each of them into their cabal even further. If the Hamill/Waldman Fifth Columnist Clintonistas pro-IslamoTerrorist NewTotalitarians had continued to steal the country Sadamn's BaathHouse NaziReduxing Thrill Killers would be mixing BioBombs in Iraq today. When Hamill attempted to seize microphones in the White House to slander the President, the butler threw his ranting butt down the stairs. His version of this sordid tale Hamill would have you believe is self-serving, self-deluded duplicity. But that's been the RadLib strategy ever since their traitorous ideology was invented by Grasci, perfected in Frankfurt and shipped into elite academia to Harvard and Berkeley by the insidious hand of Herbert Marcuse and Senator Clitnon's teacher Commie-agitator ersatz-professor Saul Alinsky, then secreted into the White House by this traitorous insidious Enron-funding pro-third-term abortion lechery loving gang. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 Thu Jan 22 15:47:24 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:47:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry In-Reply-To: <005001c3e126$61ca98a0$760e4044@STEVECOMPUTER> Message-ID: <20040122204724.49431.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> I have a question for all you teaching poets out there in NewPoetry land. What are your favorite poems to teach and why? This semester in American lit, my class actually enjoyed Whitman's "Out of the Cradle," a poem that the last am lit section I taught hated. Perhaps I'm a better teacher this time around, but I digress. As for me, I enjoy teaching: Eliot, "The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock" Whitman, "Out of the Cradle" Bishop, "In the Waiting Room," "Sestina" Jeffers, "The Purse-Seine" Hayden, "Those Winter Sundays" These are off the top of my head, but I was wondering if any of you had some favorites that you liked to teach. I love teaching the Eliot poem because--oddly enough maybe--lots of my students tend to identify with it. My students also usually love Elizabeth Bishop, and when I teach them about the sestina form, we usually have a discussion of the importance of those six words at the ends of each line. I suppose that I should say that I don't want to get into a semantic argument about what "enjoy" means. I just wonder what you like to present to students and why. Thanks, Jeff Newberry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ From MillB Thu Jan 22 15:58:26 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:58:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Message-ID: Jeff, I answered you directly (not to the group), sending you my bulky, unformatted repository of the poems I use in lessons. Let me know if you did not receive it. Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Thu Jan 22 17:37:10 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:37:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Cid Corman, "Anyone can play the poet--" Message-ID: Anyone can play the poet-- get language to sit up and beg-- carry the news or lie down--all feet at one's foot--making it seem the easiest thing in the world-- as in a sense--if you can speak-- it is. But poetry occurs in unanticipated ways-- bites and sniffs and keeps an eye on spiritual territory. Lets you know of what encroachments bodies incur when they are free of gross impediments. Enough that when the poet himself has done his thing and left his breath to yours--you're not intended to sound his praises--weep--or bestow on him supervacuous honors. --Cid Corman fr. And the Word [Minneapolis: Coffee House Press, 1982] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2084 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hruggier Fri Jan 23 10:53:38 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:53:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <010201c3e1c9$11b07940$9d0c9942@Helen> [New-Poetry] call to actionWow. Great retro use of the word "Commie" haven't heard that in a long time - ----- Original Message ----- From: ELEMENOPE Productions To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action -------------------------------------------------------------------------------. I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions Bush Country, USA, America -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dillon doesn't need personally to defeat Sam Hamill, Anne Waldman and every other dink aluminum-foiled-pinhead-capped NOT-eternal mouth-foaming Deaniac pro-Castroite ersatz-humanitarian RadLib anti-American poetaster. The American vote this Autumn will isolate each of them into their cabal even further. If the Hamill/Waldman Fifth Columnist Clintonistas pro-IslamoTerrorist NewTotalitarians had continued to steal the country Sadamn's BaathHouse NaziReduxing Thrill Killers would be mixing BioBombs in Iraq today. When Hamill attempted to seize microphones in the White House to slander the President, the butler threw his ranting butt down the stairs. His version of this sordid tale Hamill would have you believe is self-serving, self-deluded duplicity. But that's been the RadLib strategy ever since their traitorous ideology was invented by Grasci, perfected in Frankfurt and shipped into elite academia to Harvard and Berkeley by the insidious hand of Herbert Marcuse and Senator Clitnon's teacher Commie-agitator ersatz-professor Saul Alinsky, then secreted into the White House by this traitorous insidious Enron-funding pro-third-term abortion lechery loving gang. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Fri Jan 23 17:32:50 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:32:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] call to action References: <200401221701.i0MH1BHD009847@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <010201c3e1c9$11b07940$9d0c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <010101c3e200$d5e55600$18d88051@MyPC> [New-Poetry] call to actionWow. Great retro use of the word "Commie" haven't heard that in a long time - Well, if you want really retro, howzabout "premature anti-fascist"? That possibly predates even Richard's time. Robin (I doubt if Da Dillon would approve of this -- the term "premature anti-fascist" is Deeply Stalanist, and not something Elemenope would admire. C3PO ) {Actually, and nothihg to do with anything, there's an interesting lock on the term "Commie" and Dasheil Hammett's Continenal Op short stories, Hammett being that stange case of an ex-Pink who was also a Raving Leftie who got shafted by McCarthy. Bloody odd that, if you think on it. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 24 11:49:10 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:49:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Copyright/ Copy Left? Message-ID: I'm not exactly sure where I stand on copyright issues, but there's an article in tomorrow's NYT Magazine that's very interesting-- http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/magazine/25COPYRIGHT.html Hal "Let's get on with our non-paying work as always" --Bernadette Mayer Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames Sat Jan 24 13:33:57 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:33:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pre-Conference Registration for AWP 2004 Ending Soon! Message-ID: Subj: Pre-Conference Registration for AWP 2004 Ending Soon! Date: 1/24/2004 12:12:12 PM Eastern Standard Time From: awp at gmu.edu Dear Friend, Just a reminder to let you know that if you haven't yet registered for AWP's 2004 Conference, you must do so before February 20, 2004, to take advantage of lower pre-conference registration rates. No pre-conference registrations will be accepted after February 20. Registrations paid by credit card may be faxed to (703) 993-4302. You may also visit our secure online registration site: . To register by telephone please call (703) 993-4317. If you choose to register by mail, your registration must be postmarked February 20, 2003, in order to receive the early-bird rates. Please send your completed registration form and payment to: AWP Conference Services Mail Stop 1E3 George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 Conference attendees who have not registered by February 20, 2004, must register at the conference. On-site registration booths will be open beginning at 2:00PM on Wednesday, March 24, 2004, and will be located on the Fourth Floor of the Palmer House Hilton Hotel. If you have any questions or concerns please let us know. If you have already registered -- Thank you. We look forward to seeing you in Chicago! Best, ______________________________ Matt Scanlon AWP Director of Conferences MS 1E3 George Mason University Fairfax, VA 22030 2004 AWP Conference & Bookfair in Chicago http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2004awpconf.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 14:48:41 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:48:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines Message-ID: <14b.2972b96d.2d442619@aol.com> Index of First Lines (to poems never finished) At a table abandoned of all diners The third way out of town was death One might say the wind was diffident Stars flew from the grinding wheel Only ghosts find solace in silence When did it ever matter less than this They passed in the hallway once Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin One eyebrow was a scar, the other When the garden is all wither and seed I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Minutes were the cost A lot of hoopla going on in the copula She was trying to get high on nail polish The shoes in the closet began to Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Ask him again, ask him until he answers A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth A trick of light, mere glint then waver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 24 14:57:51 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:57:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines( rsv) In-Reply-To: <14b.2972b96d.2d442619@aol.com> Message-ID: At a table out of town was death, abandoned by all diners. The diffident one might say the wind was stars flying from the grinding wheel. Only ghosts matter less than this. They find solace in silence, passing in the hallway, once thick knots of smoke untie the sky, using only a spoon and bent safety pin. One eyebrow's all withered and seedy, the other inside a plastic bag, crying like a baby, rain fainting, nearly falling, costly minutes copulating amid all the hoopla. Shoes high on nail polish sequester themselves in the closet, beginning to wonder why the mirror hadn't appeared. Poisonous answers snake out between the lips and teeth of the matted envelope glinting in the tricky, palatial, imperial light. Hal Index of First Lines (to poems never finished) At a table abandoned of all diners The third way out of town was death One might say the wind was diffident Stars flew from the grinding wheel Only ghosts find solace in silence When did it ever matter less than this They passed in the hallway once Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin One eyebrow was a scar, the other When the garden is all wither and seed I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Minutes were the cost A lot of hoopla going on in the copula She was trying to get high on nail polish The shoes in the closet began to Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Ask him again, ask him until he answers A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth A trick of light, mere glint then waver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 15:21:16 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:21:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines( rsv) Message-ID: <46.45684a03.2d442dbc@aol.com> In a message dated 1/24/2004 3:14:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > At a table out of town was death, > abandoned by all diners. The diffident > one might say the wind was stars flying > from the grinding wheel. > > Only ghosts matter less than this. They > find solace in silence, passing in the hallway, > once thick knots of smoke untie the sky, > using only a spoon and bent safety pin. > > One eyebrow's all withered and seedy, > the other inside a plastic bag, crying > like a baby, rain fainting, nearly falling, > costly minutes copulating amid all the hoopla. > > Shoes high on nail polish sequester > themselves in the closet, beginning > to wonder why the mirror hadn't appeared. > Poisonous answers snake out between > > the lips and teeth of the matted envelope > glinting in the tricky, palatial, imperial light. > > Hal, well done (putting the jigsaw together) and so quickly. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard Sat Jan 24 15:38:52 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:38:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Besmilr Brigham, 3 sections fr. *Agony Dance . . .* Message-ID: xii angels of the stone the men watch the men do not dance their hands move toward the women are they silent winders of the keys the carvers who with harsh durable stroke a delicacy the fingers touching/cut clear the brief markings that make form to the angels' spread loved and protective wings do their quiet breaths breathe a movement that moves in eyes of the fierce rock where she stands quick as a leaf that has fallen xiii strange poets who die in their beds under the covers their thin drained bodies watching eyes motionless as cattle standing their brittle pierced flesh in cold bucking the subways minds end--at the end of the line they crawl on drunken stairs up (up fall the steps, can be any time hypo needles the brain rages the woods of stars their feet walk in the old man hitting his son's knowing face and lie outside a door fear the living can't open the living shut in a room against all the tight boats lost in the wind los barcos flesh does not go down like an evening star it runs on wild train wheels over an air-filled trestle, logs breaking together raft on (thrown and caught held-still in consequence waves drowned in guilt the little potients can ease over a mind a hand how can we break from our own tightness erase the deliberation that separates you who went will-wise down your own ways of fulfillment the surface is calm, look at the suspended wing the little close work a man without thought made xiv when a man dies the women they do not cross themselves (beyond prayer they have come beyond god's point in the dense tree woods empty glasses tingling with snow melt water does not turn to wine they turn their faces to the earth the beauty of touched earth they sit loving angels all flesh) content with the never placid earth --Besmilr Brigham fr. *Agony Dances: death of the (Dancing Dolls* [Portland: Prensa de Lagar, 1969] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From joncpoetics Sat Jan 24 16:02:18 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:02:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines: a corollary Message-ID: Eight punch lines in search of a joke i And the Pope said I'm with the Jewish guy. ii Styrofoam? cried the salesman I thought it was popcorn! iii Oh, it's not for me he told the bartender it's for my hippopotamus. iv There's just one thing I still don't understand: how come whenever I press this button you stick out your tongue? v But the King's ears were upside down. vi I'll bet you've never seen a gorilla in a tutu either! vii Me, too said the Martian. viii And the moral of the story is never let anyone give you more bull than you can shake a stick at. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 24 16:02:48 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:02:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines References: <14b.2972b96d.2d442619@aol.com> Message-ID: <008501c3e2bd$6c218be0$341c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> At a table abandoned of all diners Sorrow stood to sip some wine The third way out of town was death I met Her in her strangling bright line One might say the wind was diffident Or devoid of any common notion Stars flew from the grinding wheel The universe turned upside down Only ghosts find solace in silence Ohming my way through to scatter them far When did it ever matter less than this Never again, she thought, it will change They passed in the hallway once It was narrow, damp, frightening Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Difficult to breathe to act to speak Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin To open doors previously locked One eyebrow was a scar, the other Scar marked them on their wrists When the garden is all wither and seed That is where they came to light I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag But it was me, them A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Still they were, and tried out a smile Minutes were the cost To bring back life A lot of hoopla going on in the copula Rotating nerves back down to earth She was trying to get high on nail polish Televised visions smashed it all The shoes in the closet began to Clatter mutter stammer Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance Her words, where was I? To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Forget about Eurydice, turn and see Ask him again, ask him until he answers If you have to go back, that you should know A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat That is what you will receive How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth If you haven?t known until now, I already do A trick of light, mere glint then waver Only a little left, just it. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 8:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines Index of First Lines (to poems never finished) At a table abandoned of all diners The third way out of town was death One might say the wind was diffident Stars flew from the grinding wheel Only ghosts find solace in silence When did it ever matter less than this They passed in the hallway once Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin One eyebrow was a scar, the other When the garden is all wither and seed I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Minutes were the cost A lot of hoopla going on in the copula She was trying to get high on nail polish The shoes in the closet began to Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Ask him again, ask him until he answers A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth A trick of light, mere glint then waver -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 20:10:20 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:10:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines: a corollary Message-ID: <86.3ca9c75.2d44717c@aol.com> Last poem in Charles Simic's _Dismantling The Silence_... errata Where it says snow read teeth-marks of a virgin Where it says knife read you passed through my bones like a police-whistle Where it says table read horse Where it says horse read my migrant's bundle Apples are to remain apples Each time a hat appears think of Isaac Newton reading the Old Testament Remove all periods They are scars made by words I couldn't bring myself to say Put a finger over each sunrise it will blind you otherwise That damn ant is still stirring Will there be time left to list all errors to replace all hands guns owls plates all cigars ponds woods and reach that beer-bottle my greatest mistake the word I allowed to be written when I should have shouted her name -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 24 20:20:52 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:20:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Index of First Lines Message-ID: <10.3ae886ae.2d4473f4@aol.com> In a message dated 1/24/2004 4:03:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: At a table abandoned of all diners Sorrow stood to sip some wine The third way out of town was death I met Her in her strangling bright line One might say the wind was diffident Or devoid of any common notion Stars flew from the grinding wheel The universe turned upside down Only ghosts find solace in silence Ohming my way through to scatter them far When did it ever matter less than this Never again, she thought, it will change They passed in the hallway once It was narrow, damp, frightening Thick knots of smoke that the sky untied Difficult to breathe to act to speak Given only a bent spoon and a safety pin To open doors previously locked One eyebrow was a scar, the other Scar marked them on their wrists When the garden is all wither and seed That is where they came to light I thought I heard a baby crying inside a plastic bag But it was me, them A rain so faint it didn?t really fall Still they were, and tried out a smile Minutes were the cost To bring back life A lot of hoopla going on in the copula Rotating nerves back down to earth She was trying to get high on nail polish Televised visions smashed it all The shoes in the closet began to Clatter mutter stammer Why hadn?t the mirror registered his appearance Her words, where was I? To tell if it?s a poisonous snake you?d have to turn Forget about Eurydice, turn and see Ask him again, ask him until he answers If you have to go back, that you should know A sealed envelope and a key left under the mat That is what you will receive How spoken without palate, tongue or teeth If you haven?t known until now, I already do A trick of light, mere glint then waver Only a little left, just it. Anny -- Anny, I like where you're going with these failed first lines. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sun Jan 25 12:50:51 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 11:50:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fruit from the thirst-tree Message-ID: My latest catch at the public library is a book I will probably never finish, certainly not in one loan period--the new *Poetry of Pablo Neruda*, edited by Ilan Stavans (Farrar, Straus & Giroux). This is doubtless the fattest selected edition I've ever seen, 996 pages long. The editor notes that Neruda's entire poetic output runs to 3799 pages; I'm wondering if there are any other poets of note who can match that level of production? In any case, Neruda fans will want to take a long look at this doorstop, the most complete edition by far that has ever appeared in English, covering Neruda's entire career and employing multiple translators, including W. S. Merwin, Alastair Reid, Donald Walsh, Margaret Sayers Peden, William O'Daly, and many others. One interesting feature of the book: there are a number of poems provided in more than one translation, for comparison's sake. Here's one of Bly's odes, from the final section of the book ("Homage") featuring a number of contemporary poets' versions of various poems-- Ode to the Watermelon The tree of intense summer, hard, is all blue sky, yellow sun, fatigue in drops, a sword above the highways, a scorched shoe in the cities: the brightness and the world weigh us down, hit us in the eyes with clouds of dust, with sudden golden blows, they torture our feet with tiny thorns, with hot stones, and the mouth suffers more than all the toes: the throat becomes thirsty, the teeth, the lips, the tongue: we want to drink waterfalls, the dark blue night, the South Pole, and then the coolest of all the planets crosses the sky, the round, magnificent, star-filled watermelon. It's a fruit from the thirst-tree. It's the green whale of the summer. The dry universe all at once given dark stars by this firmament of coolness lets the swelling fruit come down: its hemispheres open showing a flag green, white, red, that dissolves into wild rivers, sugar, delight! Jewel box of water, phlegmatic queen of the fruitshops, warehouse of profundity, moon on earth! You are pure, rubies fall apart in your abundance, and we want to bite into you, to bury our face in you, and our hair, and the soul! When we're thirsty we glimpse you like a mine or a mountain of fantastic food, but among our longings and our teeth you change simply into cool light that slips in turn into spring water that touched us once singing. And that is why you don't weigh us down in the siesta hour that's like an oven, you don't weigh us down, you just go by and your heart, some cold ember, turned itself into a single drop of water. -- Pablo Neruda, trans. Robert Bly ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From ron.silliman Mon Jan 26 07:30:30 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:30:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c3e408$32f7fc90$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Coming to terms with elders: Ezra Pound's fascist cantos & Michael Rothenberg channeling Philip Whalen Ron Silliman forthcoming events Poetry & community - Tucson's Lisa Cooper Kaia Sand - Choosing between rough edges & smooth ones Jules Boykoff - A political poetry of linked verse Heather Nagamai's "The Agenda" - Rube Goldberg Objectivism & the furious stasis of local government An intro to Antennae Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: Mike Snider The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar "Write Like Soap," a poem on which one could stake a career in Rod Smith's Protective Immediacy (Four free books from Roof Books @ the EPC) An opportunity to feel ambivalent: Twentieth-Century American Poetics, edited by Dana Gioia, David Mason & Meg Schoerke (how new formalism neglects poets born in the 1930s) Density, density, density - What is it & what is its opposite? (reading Armantrout, Berssenbrugge, Godfrey & Corbett) Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From paul.lake Mon Jan 26 12:50:58 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:50:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fruit from the thirst-tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/25/04 11:50 AM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: > My latest catch at the public library is a book I will probably never > finish, certainly not in one loan period--the new *Poetry of Pablo Neruda*, > edited by Ilan Stavans (Farrar, Straus & Giroux). This is doubtless the > fattest selected edition I've ever seen, 996 pages long. The editor notes > that Neruda's entire poetic output runs to 3799 pages; I'm wondering if > there are any other poets of note who can match that level of production? How about Ashbery? --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From GrahamD Tue Jan 27 11:41:39 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:41:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Fruit from the thirst-tree Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1B6@ariel.ripon.edu> >The editor notes > that Neruda's entire poetic output runs to 3799 pages; I'm wondering if > there are any other poets of note who can match that level of production? >How about Ashbery? --- Ah, Ashbery. You may have a point, but I'm not about to start counting pages, I confess. Possible that it just *seems* that many of his individual poems run longer than 3799 pages. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From FINDINGTHEWORD Thu Jan 29 11:48:34 2004 From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:48:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] new interview with poet Gil Ott Message-ID: <149.212802b5.2d4a9362@aol.com> new interview with poet Gil Ott http://banjopoets.blogspot.com/ From paul.lake Thu Jan 29 13:46:38 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:46:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has proposed to substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. One of Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really are the unacknowledged legislators of the world. Paul Lake January 29, 2004 Bush Seeks $18M Budget Increase for Arts By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush is proposing a big funding boost to the National Endowment for the Arts, an agency that once was a favorite target of Republicans. The money would go for a new program to give Americans an up-close look at their arts heritage. The $18 million increase, a 15 percent hike in the NEA's funding, would be the largest in years. Last year, Congress increased the agency's funding to $122.5 million, up from $115.7 million but still well below what the agency received 25 years ago. Most of the increase Bush is proposing in his upcoming federal budget would be used for a new initiative called ``American Masterpieces: Three Centuries of Artistic Genius.'' The programs will take works of American art on tour to large and small communities in all 50 states, said Douglas Sonntag, director of the NEA's Office of National Initiatives. Sonntag said the program also will create educational packages of videos and study guides tailored for schoolchildren, bringing jazz, Shakespeare, dance and other art forms to classrooms nationwide. While federal spending on the arts has edged up slightly, cash-strapped state governments have slashed funding for theaters, museums and performance groups by nearly one quarter. The NEA's budget was slashed when Republicans gained control of Congress in 1995. Conservatives were upset by some of the projects funded by the NEA, such as works by controversial artists like Robert Mapplethorpe, contending they were a threat to the nation's moral standards. The arts agency is one of the few domestic programs in line for a major spending increase under the budget plan Bush will unveil Tuesday. He has proposed holding spending for non-defense, non-domestic security programs to an increase of about 0.5 percent. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bobgrumman Thu Jan 29 17:25:10 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:25:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase References: Message-ID: <017b01c3e6b6$c34f8230$7aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has proposed to > substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. One of > Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really are the > unacknowledged legislators of the world. > > Paul Lake As a clever Philistine, I'm sure Bush knows that the best way to destroy the arts is not simply to ignore them but to subsidize their chief competitors. --Bob G. From JforJames Thu Jan 29 21:02:41 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:02:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia Message-ID: <2d.391c70dd.2d4b1541@aol.com> In a message dated 1/27/2004 11:42:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > >How about Ashbery? > > --- > Ah, Ashbery. You may have a point, but I'm not about to start counting > pages, I confess. Possible that it just *seems* that many of his individual > poems run longer than 3799 pages. . . . > Did anyone hear the piece on NPR this morning? I think the author said 80% of poets are afflicted with a form of hypergaphia... Alice Flarehty's Midnight Disease http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/titledetail.cfm?titleNumber=688190 "One often hears of writers that rise and swell with their subject, though it may seem but an ordinary one. How, then, with me, writing of this Leviathan? Unconsciously my chirography expands into placard capitals. Give me a condor's quill! Give me Vesuvius' crater for an inkstand! Friends, hold my arms!" --Herman Melville -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 Thu Jan 29 21:13:14 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:13:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia Message-ID: <5f.4467e637.2d4b17ba@aol.com> here's flarehty's essay from the *chronicle of higher ed* i may have posted this to new-poetry back in late november. it's rather long, so apologies for cramming your email-box. here goes: thom tammaro moorhead, mn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Writing Like Crazy: a Word on the Brain By ALICE WEAVER FLAHERTY Writing is one of the supreme human achievements. No, why should I be reasonable? Writing is the supreme achievement. It is by turns exhilarating and arduous, and trying to write obsesses and distresses students, professional writers, and diarists alike. Writers explain why they write (and have trouble writing) one way, freshman-composition teachers another; literary critics and psychiatrists and neurologists have increasingly foreign explanations. These modes of thinking about the emotions that surround writing do not easily translate into one another. But one fact is always true: The mind that writes is also the brain that writes. And the existence of brain states that affect our creativity raises questions that make us uneasy. What is the relation between mind and body? What are the sources of imagination? How can both neuroscience and literature bear on the question of what makes writers not only able, but want, even need, to write? How can we understand the outpouring of authors like Joyce Carol Oates or Stephen King? Why does John Updike see a blank sheet of paper as radiant, the sun rising in the morning? ( As William Pritchard said of him, "He must have had an unpublished thought, but you couldn't tell it.") This seems --?and is --?an unbelievably complex psychological trait. Yet it is not so complex that it cannot be studied. Neurologists have found that changes in a specific area of the brain can produce hypergraphia, the medical term for an overpowering desire to write. Thinking in a counterintuitive, neurological way about what drives and frustrates literary creation can suggest new treatments for hypergraphia's more common and tormenting opposite, writer's block. Both of these conditions arise from complicated abnormalities of the basic biological drive to communicate. Evidence that ranges from Nabokov to neurochemistry, Faulkner to functional brain imaging, shows that thinking about excesses and dearths of writing can also clarify normal literary output and the mechanisms of creativity. The few current books on creativity that have included a neuroscientific perspective have neglected crucial brain regions such as the temporal lobe and limbic system in favor of a still-popular --?but oversimplified --?emphasis on a right brain-left brain dichotomy. The temporal lobes have been somewhat neglected by neurologists, in part because damage to the temporal lobes does not produce glaring motor or cognitive problems. But the temporal lobes are important for producing literature, in part because they are necessary for understanding semantic meaning and also Meaning in its philosophical senses, as in the Meaning of Life. And changes in the temporal lobes can produce hypergraphia. One example of these changes is temporal-lobe epilepsy. Some people with epilepsy stemming from temporal-lobe damage have hypergraphia so strong that they will write on toilet paper or use their own blood for ink if nothing else is at hand. Their hypergraphia is usually linked to other personality traits, including unstable mood and motivation, and a tendency to ruminate on the philosophical or religious Big Questions. Similar traits are often seen in people with manic-depression during their manic periods. And there is evidence for selective changes in the temporal lobes of people with mania. The temporal lobes appear to be important for the drive to seek beauty and meaning in nonliterary art forms as well. When Pick's disease, a rare form of dementia, selectively affects the temporal lobes, its victims may gain breathtaking artistic or musical drive, even as their ability to take part in other activities disintegrates. The same brain changes that drove the epileptic Vincent van Gogh's hypergraphic letters to his brother Theo seem also to have driven his frenetic painting --?at his peak he produced a new canvas every 36 hours. In some respects, hypergraphia and compulsive art-making are special cases of the more general phenomenon of a sense of vocation or of workaholism. They can shed light on how or whether to control these double-edged states. Nearly all of us, artists or not, feel the joy of work, the terrors of work. A second region critical for creative writing is the limbic system, the seat of emotion and drive. It gets its name from the fact that it forms a limbus or ring deep under the cortex. It drives many functions we wish we had conscious control over, but don't: for instance, hunger and sexual desire, and the experience of inspiration. The limbic system connects more strongly to the temporal lobes than to any other region of the cortex. This strong connection underlies the importance of emotion and drive to creativity --?factors that are anatomically as well as conceptually distinct from the cognitive contributions of the rest of the cerebral cortex. The limbic system also reflects the importance of mood swings in driving creativity. Although --?at least in principle --?everyone approves of creativity, many have been skeptical of attempts to study or enhance it. The artist's view of creativity is often that it should be left alone, that looking too closely could endanger it. Often, the basic scientist's view is also that creativity should be left alone, that it is by definition too anomalous for controlled study. That has left the study of creativity enhancement to New Age practitioners, inspirational-business seminar leaders, and a few brave social scientists. Even social scientists have been hesitant. Freud, in his essay on Dostoyevsky, wrote that "before the problem of the creative artist, analysis must, alas, lay down its arms." (To be fair, though, psychoanalysts have struggled more valiantly with the problem than have other clinicians. Psychopharmacologists have a tendency to dismiss creativity as a reason patients make up to excuse not taking their pills.) Some social scientists believe that enterprises as diverse as scientific discovery, literature, dancing, and successful business decisions should not all be lumped under the single concept of creativity. Howard Gardner, for instance, has argued that different intelligences are needed for different domains such as language and mathematics, and that creativity in one domain does not necessarily extend into another. Nonetheless, researchers on creativity have begun to combine information from a number of different disciplines, and argue persuasively that it is such an important phenomenon that we cannot afford not to study it. Most researchers agree that a useful definition of creative work is that it includes a combination of novelty and value. Creativity requires novelty because tried-and-true solutions are not creative, even if they are ingenious and useful. And creative works must be valuable (useful or illuminating to at least some members of the population) because a work that is merely odd is not creative. This two-factor definition of creativity also provides an explanation of why the creative can lie close to the crazy (unusual but valueless behavior). The definition of creative work as novel and valuable also captures the societal aspect of what gets called creative work. Creativity is not the property of a work in isolation: Novelty and value have to be defined in relation to a social context. When I use a lever and fulcrum to move a rock in my garden, I don't get the creativity points that I would have if I were Cro-Magnon. Sometimes the social context is not clear, however. Who should judge whether a work such as Finnegans Wake is creative? The general public is generally neither skilled nor interested enough, whereas specialists in a field are sometimes so invested in the status quo that they resist innovation. The role of social context in determining value also underlies the process whereby the geniuses of one generation are hacks the next, while people dismissed as mad are rehabilitated as geniuses. Sometimes the social context is all too clear; the notion of creative freedom becomes so rigidly codified that it is paradoxically restrictive. A good friend, a wonderfully inventive storyteller and decorator, nonetheless feels uncreative because she does not Paint or Write. Another recalls arguments with a high-school art teacher who insisted that he stop "limiting" his painting to black and white, and freely use color like the rest of the class. And a preschool teacher gently expressed concern about one of my daughters' enjoyment of precisely coloring within the lines of her coloring book (the other scribbles wildly). These examples also raise the issue of whether creativity can be taught, a thorny subject that I will now sidestep. Just as creative work requires novelty and value, the creative thinker who produces it requires both talent and drive. Here I'll lay down my arms before the question of talent, and take up a different set of weapons to shoot the easier target, drive. Hypergraphia is a window onto the nature of creative drive, and its neurological underpinnings are better understood than those of talent. Drives are largely controlled by the limbic system. The consensus seems to be that drive is surprisingly more important than talent in producing creative work. Researchers find that above an IQ of 115, there is essentially no correlation between creativity and intelligence. Rather, in Thomas A. Edison's words, "Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration." The argument that creativity is proportional to total output, is 99 percent perspiration, does not completely let us escape that problem of the remaining 1 percent, the sliver that separates the workaholic genius from the merely workaholic. Generating reams of text without some talent is not enough. As Eyler Coates put it, "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually produce a masterpiece. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." How, specifically, does motivation affect creativity, both the generation and editing of ideas? Hypergraphia doesn't guarantee writing skill; its products can range from the simple (for instance, an epileptic patient whose copious journal was endless repetition of the thought "Thank GOD, no seizures" in variously colored ink) to the sublime (the novels of Dostoevsky or Flaubert, also temporal-lobe epileptics). But a compulsive need to write may indirectly make good writing more likely by increasing the time the writer spends practicing. This may be one factor in the very high incidence of manic-depressive writers. Kay Redfield Jamison calculates that poets are up to 40 times more likely than the general population to have had manic episodes. It turns out to matter where the drive to write comes from. All driven writers focus on their work. But people driven by intrinsic motivations such as curio sity and enjoyment have a different relationship to the product of their work from those moved by extrinsic motivations including praise, money, and the constantly varying world of punishments. Someone who is fascinated by language attends to details and to the overall texture of a writing project more than she will if she is writing simply to satisfy the public. While strong intrinsic motivation increases creativity, surprisingly, adding extrinsic motivations --?even positive ones --?can actually decrease creativity. If that is true, paying a writer may paradoxically make him write less well. (As you might guess, I do not think this means you should not pay writers.) Reward may encourage the writer to stop work as soon as she has completed the minimal amount of work necessary for the reward, resulting in what Herbert Simon called "satisficing." Extrinsic motivation may also have a negative effect on creativity by distracting the subject's attention from the task to thoughts of reward or punishment. This implies that the best way to foster creative writing is to give the writer freedom to work on a subject he loves. But the motivation to write may also be infectious, as Plato described in the Ion. "[The Muse] first makes man inspired, and then through these inspired ones others share in the enthusiasm, and a chain is formed, for the epic poets, all the good ones, have their excellence, not from art, but are inspired, possessed, and thus they utter all these admirable poems." There is actually some scientific evidence for Plato's position: Children shown videos of other children enjoying their work not only enjoy their work more, but seem to escape the negative effect of extrinsic rewards. Reward makes them perform even better. But how to explain --?and help --?people who know how to write, seem to want desperately to write, and yet do not? This question is, of course, a special case of what to do with creative block in all fields. The scourge of block, and its handmaid procrastination, have been documented since the ancient Egyptians, who had two separate hieroglyphs for the latter. Does writer's block have a neurological basis that is the opposite of hypergraphia? Yes --?in certain respects. Block is highly associated with depression, just as hypergraphia is with mania. And block shares with depression some features of frontal-lobe alteration, including lack of initiative and excessive self-criticism. There is evidence for a push-pull interaction between temporal and frontal lobes in creativity, an axis that turns sideways the 1970s theory of right brain-left brain interactions. While a link between block and depression seems to fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that professional writers often suffer from depression, the fact is that talented writers are actually more likely to be blocked than poor writers. (This is true outside of literature as well. The tremendous outpouring of Leonardo da Vinci's ideas, for instance, was matched only by his long list of giant unfinished projects.) Most writers with depression do their writing not while depressed, but while on the edge of a mood change, or in a rebound euphoria. Indeed, many writers who carry the diagnosis of depression actually have mild bipolar disorder. This in part explains why writers can have odd combinations of block and hypergraphia simultaneously. For instance, the modern equivalent of Eliot's Mr. Casaubon, blocked on his grand Key to All Mythologies, may instead turn out megabytes of e-mail messages and blogs a day. Such genre specificity in block is more evidence that block is not a problem with cortical writing skills but with limbic drives. Yet many college programs fight block with cognitive strategies, such as making an outline and brainstorming, or with cognitive-behavioral therapy. While these are often appropriate, remembering that block is a brain state as well as a mental state can provide alternate approaches --?and not necessarily involving drugs such as antidepressants or stimulants. For instance, a writer who finds that his creativity and productivity plummet around Thanksgiving and Christmas every year may blame his lack of motivation, or wonder if the stress of seeing his dysfunctional family twice in two months is what is doing it. Yet a significant winter dip in creative output has been documented by researchers for artists in general. It is most likely due to shorter day length, which triggers an unpleasant hibernation instinct even in those of us who don't have full-blown seasonal affective disorder. The writer described here may therefore find setting a small light box on the table next to his breakfast cereal would have a more immediate benefit to his productivity than would working through issues with his mother --?although the latter option, of course, may have other benefits. The urge to write is a secondary drive that grows out of a more fundamental drive, the drive to communicate. But how fundamental is the drive to communicate? The behaviorists argued that it, too, is secondary, that we are conditioned to use language because it gets us things we want: food, sex, permission to use the bathroom when we are in elementary school. More recent researchers propose that communicating is something hardwired into us, that we have, in Steven Pinker's term, a language instinct. This position does not deny that language is useful for getting things; indeed, it argues that language has been hardwired just because it is so useful. The way emotion drives language becomes clearer when we look at the evolutionary origins of speech. Until recently nearly everything that was said about language origins proceeded from a certain smugness about our role as the only species with true language, with grammar. It is true that nonhuman primate communication contains only a limited number of signals (sounds or gestures with innate meaning, such as laughing or screaming) and even fewer symbols (items whose meaning must be learned, as in the snake- and eagle-alarm calls of vervet monkeys). And there is little interchange in primate communication --?primates make pronouncements rather than conversation. Finally, and crucially for followers of Noam Chomsky, primates have no grammar. But there is still important information to be gained from studying nonhuman primates. Linguists tend to focus on semantics and syntax, on sentences as vehicles that transmit solely a logical proposition. In practice, however, we often interpret sentences more "primitively," looking for the emotional or limbic aspects of speech, even before we bother with the semantic aspects. When a colleague bursts into your office with a rant about some departmental policy, you are likely to store the entire 15-minute tirade as a judgment about emotion --?"Anne is angry" --?and dispense with the cognitive aspects of her argument. Traditional linguists may argue that the emotional aspect of language, transmitted as much by tone as by words, does not separate it from primitive nonlinguistic gestures such as giving someone the finger, and thus is not a fit subject for linguists. It is nonetheless an essential subject for understanding what drives us to speak and write. Social monkeys are much more likely to make expressions of pain than are solitary species, because for the latter, wincing does not get them any aid; it merely attracts predators. Is it too reductionist to suggest that a major reason for creative writing is an abstracted version of the same biological urge that causes you to cry out in sorrow or anger? Let us call it the need theory of self-expression. It is perhaps a more inclusive formulation of Freud's description of literature, which he believed was driven only by unexpressed sexual needs. It also has a dollop of more modern neuroanatomy and evolutionary biology thrown in. There is admittedly a big step between nonlinguistic expressions of emotion and semantic propositions. Such an explanation need not fit all writing. It would not cover technical or impersonal writing --?the medical journal Prostate, or the book How to Talk to Your Cat come to mind. It would include most autobiographical writing, most fiction, most poetry, and most nonfiction in which the author had a strong personal stake in the subject. I was going to include my previous book, an apparently dry handbook of neurology, along with Prostate and How to Talk to Your Cat, but I realized that it secretly was a record of three very happy years as a neurology resident, under the tutelage of two wonderful mentors --?that's why I enjoyed writing it so much. Maybe the Cat guy had similar personal motives. If language and writing grow out of a biological system for attempting to fill needs, then the notion of self-expression, so often invoked vaguely to explain the artistic urge, can be better understood. Self-expression is not simply a broadcasting of personal characteristics or tastes. It is generally, if subliminally, much more goal-directed than that. Educators often justify art and creative-writing courses on the grounds that self-expression can teach the student more about himself or herself. This may be true to some extent, but many creative writers have been quite capable of powerfully emotive writing while lacking insight into the internal conflicts that drive their suffering. Nonetheless, while they may not gain insight, they may gain a sense of relief, and a sympathetic audience. Yet to the extent that self-expression does broadcast and reinforce a person's character, it makes clearer one more link between art and, if not mental illness, eccentricity. Because the more like ourselves we become, the odder we become. Insanity is like sanity, only much, much more so. This is most obvious in situations where society no longer keeps us in line: the eccentricity of the very rich, or of castaways. Can any of this need theory of self-expression be tested? One group of studies by Alice Brand provides evidence that writing, at least on personally chosen subjects, has measurable mood effects. In both students and professional writers, the act of writing both intensified positive emotions and blunted negative ones. This was somewhat of a surprise to researchers in the field of composition studies, as the standard view of writing emphasized the anxiety induced in students by writing assignments. The findings were consistent with what has been described by many writers, from hypergraphic patients to Joyce Carol Oates when she said, "I have forced myself to begin writing when I've been utterly exhausted, when I've felt my soul as thin as a playing card ... and somehow the activity of writing changes everything." Ernest Hemingway saw Oates's half-full glass as half-empty: "When I don't write, I feel like shit." Some writers, such as the poet Tina Kelley, describe a physical sensation of unease or restlessness that torments them if they haven't written for a few days. For others, it is a sort of headache, a stuffy, swollen brain. Milton described feeling like a cow that needs to be milked. And for many, there is the primal conviction that they should not do anything but write because it is their vocation, in a nearly religious sense. Writing is what they are meant to do, and the headaches and the restlessness are their body rebelling when it is kept from fulfilling its destiny. Reuniting language with the screams and cries of animal communication, looking at it not as vibrations in the ether but as a secretion of one of the spongiest organs in the body, goes against most of traditional linguistics' stress on language as semantics, as a way of making statements about truth. But the huge popularity of fiction, in which the majority of the "events" are not true, tells us that there is something more going on with language than the symbolization of truth, at least truth narrowly defined. If chimpanzees use utterances for emotional expression, if toddlers compulsively narrate events as they happen, it may be that these are merely the most primitive facets of language. But that is not a reason to neglect them. Their very primitiveness fits with what we feel about language and writing, that it is fundamental to our nature. Emotional meaning is deeper than cognitive meaning, both literarily and literally, anatomically in the heart of the brain. In thinking about language we need to broaden our scope from mastering syntax and constructing tight paragraphs, to look also at gains and losses of significance, the afflictions of writers who write too much or hold back from writing, and our primal desire for our words to mean something to someone else, somewhere. Alice Weaver Flaherty is a staff neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital and a neurology instructor at Harvard Medical School. This essay is excerpted from The Midnight Disease: The Drive to Write, Writer's Block, and the Creative Brain, to be published in January by Houghton Mifflin. Copyright 2004 ? by Alice Weaver Flaherty. http://chronicle.com Section: The Chronicle Review Volume 50, Issue 13, Page B6 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Fri Jan 30 10:34:26 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:34:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brautigan Message-ID: It's Richard Brautigan's birthday. Haiku Ambulance A piece of green pepper fell off the wooden salad bowl: so what? --Richard Brautigan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi Fri Jan 30 10:52:18 2004 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:52:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130095116.02097ee0@mail.ilstu.edu> I FEEL HORRIBLE, SHE DOESN'T I feel horrible. She doesn't love me and I wander around like a sewing machine that's just finished sewing a turd to a garbage can lid. - Richard Brautigan From grahamd Fri Jan 30 11:01:42 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:01:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130095116.02097ee0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: XEROX CANDY BAR Ah, you're just a copy of all the candy bars I've ever eaten. --Richard Brautigan ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi Fri Jan 30 11:13:48 2004 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:13:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130095116.02097ee0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130101108.02b9d6d8@mail.ilstu.edu> WE STOPPED AT PERFECT DAYS We stopped at perfect days and got out of the car. The wind glanced at her hair. It was as simple as that. I turned to say something-- - Richard Brautigan From grahamd Fri Jan 30 11:19:50 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:19:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Again a Brautigan In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040130101108.02b9d6d8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: -2 Everybody wants to go to bed with everybody else, they're lined up for blocks, so I'll go to bed with you. They won't miss us. --Richard Brautigan From hruggier Fri Jan 30 10:53:47 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:53:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase References: Message-ID: <01fb01c3e74d$846efc70$2e099942@Helen> He's afraid Sam Hammill will come after him one of the pipsqueaks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase > Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has proposed to > substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. One of > Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really are the > unacknowledged legislators of the world. > > Paul Lake > > > January 29, 2004 > > Bush Seeks $18M Budget Increase for Arts > By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS > > Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET > > WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush is proposing a big funding boost to the > National Endowment for the Arts, an agency that once was a favorite target > of Republicans. The money would go for a new program to give Americans an > up-close look at their arts heritage. > > The $18 million increase, a 15 percent hike in the NEA's funding, would be > the largest in years. Last year, Congress increased the agency's funding to > $122.5 million, up from $115.7 million but still well below what the agency > received 25 years ago. > > Most of the increase Bush is proposing in his upcoming federal budget would > be used for a new initiative called ``American Masterpieces: Three Centuries > of Artistic Genius.'' The programs will take works of American art on tour > to large and small communities in all 50 states, said Douglas Sonntag, > director of the NEA's Office of National Initiatives. > > Sonntag said the program also will create educational packages of videos and > study guides tailored for schoolchildren, bringing jazz, Shakespeare, dance > and other art forms to classrooms nationwide. > > While federal spending on the arts has edged up slightly, cash-strapped > state governments have slashed funding for theaters, museums and performance > groups by nearly one quarter. > > The NEA's budget was slashed when Republicans gained control of Congress in > 1995. Conservatives were upset by some of the projects funded by the NEA, > such as works by controversial artists like Robert Mapplethorpe, contending > they were a threat to the nation's moral standards. > > The arts agency is one of the few domestic programs in line for a major > spending increase under the budget plan Bush will unveil Tuesday. He has > proposed holding spending for non-defense, non-domestic security programs to > an increase of about 0.5 percent. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From hruggier Fri Jan 30 11:33:27 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:33:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brautigan References: Message-ID: <02ec01c3e74e$ca8ba2c0$2e099942@Helen> One of my peresonal favorites - and I'm adding the candy bar one to my list xxx h ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 10:34 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Brautigan > It's Richard Brautigan's birthday. > > > > Haiku Ambulance > > A piece of green pepper > fell > off the wooden salad bowl: > so what? > > --Richard Brautigan > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From barry.spacks Fri Jan 30 12:28:46 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:28:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Brautigan In-Reply-To: <200401301701.i0UH18bk025047@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040130092614.00b2ab40@incoming.verizon.net> FAME Wearing my soft black Australian hat I walk my friends' dog down Panchita Street. I've been house-sitting, dog-walking, reading all week Richard Brautigan, who wrote that the beauty is all in the saying, who would not tie the bird of lunacy by a short string to his toe, but rather would let her fly in long loopy moves, like a book's page-turning, all in the name and the acting-out of freedom, who shot off his head absolutely, done in, they say, by the Bitch Fame-Goddess, broken on her gerbil-treadwheel, depressed, uncheered, remaining a time unidentified so de-headed there and vodka-drowned and Not, in Bolinas, California, talk about freedom. I think he would have liked my hat and surely my friends' dog Ida, black-and-white border collie with yearning eyes who'd herd anything to safety, sheep or zephyr, doing her dog-work. "Fame is the spur," blind Milton wrote, but added little of use in Bolinas about "these terrifying honors." -- Barry Spacks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Fri Jan 30 12:08:55 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:08:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia In-Reply-To: <2d.391c70dd.2d4b1541@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, January 29, 2004, at 09:02 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Did anyone hear the piece on NPR this morning? > I think the author said 80% of poets are afflicted with > a form of hypergaphia... > Alice Flarehty's Midnight Disease > http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/ > titledetail.cfm?titleNumber=688190 > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Don't walk so fast. The rain is everywhere. --Shunryu Suzuki -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jvcervantes Fri Jan 30 13:24:48 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:24:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia References: Message-ID: <401AA170.14804298@earthlink.net> Wendy Battin wrote: > > On Thursday, January 29, 2004, at 09:02 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Did anyone hear the piece on NPR this morning? > I think the author said 80% of poets are afflicted with > a form of hypergaphia... > Alice Flarehty's Midnight Disease > http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/titledetail.cfm?titleNumber=688190 > > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. Yes. It makes me sad. Then happy. Then sad . . . - Jim From atlas Fri Jan 30 13:39:36 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:39:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia References: <401AA170.14804298@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <035f01c3e760$697667b0$739edf18@atlas> J. Cervantes wrote: > > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. > > Yes. It makes me sad. Then happy. Then sad . . . Thank God she didn't say they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive.... Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary Mike Geary.... From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 13:31:39 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:31:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia Message-ID: Farewell Mapplethorpe, Hello Shakespeare The NEA, the W. way. By Roger Kimball Under normal circumstances, the White House announcement that the president was seeking a big budget increase for the National Endowment for the Arts might have been grounds for dismay. Pronounce the acronym "NEA," and most people think Robert Mapplethorpe, photographs of crucifixes floating in urine, and performance artists prancing about naked, smeared with chocolate, and skirling about the evils of patriarchy. Thanks, but no thanks. But things have changed, and changed for the better at the NEA. The reason can be summed up in two trochees: Dana Gioia, the distinguished poet and critic who is the Endowment's new chairman. Within a matter of months, Mr. Gioia has transformed that moribund institution into a vibrant force for the preservation and transmission of artistic culture. He has cut out the cutting edge and put back the art. Instead of supporting repellent "transgressive" freaks, he has instituted an important new program to bring Shakespeare to communities across America. And by Shakespeare I mean Shakespeare, not some PoMo rendition that portrays Hamlet in drag or sets A Midsummer Night's Dream in a concentration camp. (Check the website www.shakespeareinamericancommunities.org for more information.) Mr. Gioia is moving on other fronts as well. He has hired a number of able deputies who care about art and understand that what the public wants is more access to good art ? opera, poetry, theater, literature ? not greater exposure to social pathology dressed up as art. After a couple of decades of cultural schizophrenia, the NEA has become a clear-sighted, robust institution intent on bringing important art to the American people. It's quite odd, really. People keep telling us ? that is, professors and CNN commentators and Hollywood actors keep telling us ? how very stupid President Bush is. Yet everywhere one looks he is supporting some of the most intelligent and dynamic people ever to occupy their cultural posts. Dana Gioia at the NEA, his counterpart Bruce Cole at the National Endowment for the Humanities, Leon Kass and his panel of distinguished scientists and philosophers at the President's Council on Bioethics (see their website www.bioethics.gov to get a sense of the good work they are doing on clarifying the enormous moral issues surrounding the debate over biotechnology). The Left keeps screaming about how dim George Bush is, but in the meantime, he has illuminated one area of public life after another with immensely talented and articulate people. There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives ? by which term I mean people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past ? should applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come home. ? Roger Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion and author of Art's Prospect: The Challenge of Tradition in an Age of Celebrity. ? ? ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? ? ? ? --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From atlas Fri Jan 30 14:03:41 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:03:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia References: Message-ID: <037501c3e763$c70e7d60$739edf18@atlas> Paul Lake quotes Kimball: > There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent > government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be > no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should > be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush > approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives < by which term I mean > people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past < should > applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come > home. "The George Bush apporach to cultural reinvogoration?" That's the funniest thing I've ever read. Thank you, Paul. As a good conservative I support shutting down the production of new art -- we have what we need, thank you. We only need do Shakespeare from here on out (a bowdlerized, of course) because Shakespeare said it all (and some of what he said we don't want repeated). Mike Geary An enlightened life-affirmer firmly in favor of conserving whatever in the past affirms my conservation. From mandolin Fri Jan 30 14:09:00 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:09:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase In-Reply-To: <01fb01c3e74d$846efc70$2e099942@Helen> References: <01fb01c3e74d$846efc70$2e099942@Helen> Message-ID: One of Gioia's first publications after his appointment was a review of Rexroth's Collected, published by Hammill's Press. The "tea-party" Hammill managed to cancel was supposed to introduce Gioia. Hammill wondered who thought of inviting him. It was probably Dana Gioia. On Jan 30, 2004, at 10:53 AM, Helen Ruggieri wrote: > He's afraid Sam Hammill will come after him > > one of the pipsqueaks > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Lake" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:46 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase > > >> Although the act has irritated conservatives, President Bush has >> proposed > to >> substantially increase the budget for the NEA. Good work, Dana Gioia. >> One > of >> Dana's goals as chair was to grow the Endowment. Maybe poets really >> are > the >> unacknowledged legislators of the world. >> >> Paul Lake >> >> >> January 29, 2004 >> >> Bush Seeks $18M Budget Increase for Arts >> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS >> >> Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET >> >> WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush is proposing a big funding boost to >> the >> National Endowment for the Arts, an agency that once was a favorite >> target >> of Republicans. The money would go for a new program to give >> Americans an >> up-close look at their arts heritage. >> >> The $18 million increase, a 15 percent hike in the NEA's funding, >> would be >> the largest in years. Last year, Congress increased the agency's >> funding > to >> $122.5 million, up from $115.7 million but still well below what the > agency >> received 25 years ago. >> >> Most of the increase Bush is proposing in his upcoming federal budget > would >> be used for a new initiative called ``American Masterpieces: Three > Centuries >> of Artistic Genius.'' The programs will take works of American art on >> tour >> to large and small communities in all 50 states, said Douglas Sonntag, >> director of the NEA's Office of National Initiatives. >> >> Sonntag said the program also will create educational packages of >> videos > and >> study guides tailored for schoolchildren, bringing jazz, Shakespeare, > dance >> and other art forms to classrooms nationwide. >> >> While federal spending on the arts has edged up slightly, >> cash-strapped >> state governments have slashed funding for theaters, museums and > performance >> groups by nearly one quarter. >> >> The NEA's budget was slashed when Republicans gained control of >> Congress > in >> 1995. Conservatives were upset by some of the projects funded by the >> NEA, >> such as works by controversial artists like Robert Mapplethorpe, > contending >> they were a threat to the nation's moral standards. >> >> The arts agency is one of the few domestic programs in line for a >> major >> spending increase under the budget plan Bush will unveil Tuesday. He >> has >> proposed holding spending for non-defense, non-domestic security >> programs > to >> an increase of about 0.5 percent. >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From schroesd Fri Jan 30 15:05:24 2004 From: schroesd (Steven Schroeder) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:05:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia References: <037501c3e763$c70e7d60$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: <001e01c3e76c$661d3420$760e4044@STEVECOMPUTER> It's possible to point out that Kimball is beating a straw man without dragging in one of your own. Steven D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Geary To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Gioia Paul Lake quotes Kimball: > There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent > government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be > no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should > be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush > approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives < by which term I mean > people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past < should > applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come > home. "The George Bush apporach to cultural reinvogoration?" That's the funniest thing I've ever read. Thank you, Paul. As a good conservative I support shutting down the production of new art -- we have what we need, thank you. We only need do Shakespeare from here on out (a bowdlerized, of course) because Shakespeare said it all (and some of what he said we don't want repeated). Mike Geary An enlightened life-affirmer firmly in favor of conserving whatever in the past affirms my conservation. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 14:47:49 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:47:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia In-Reply-To: <037501c3e763$c70e7d60$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: on 1/30/04 1:03 PM, Michael Geary at atlas at earthlink.net wrote: > "The George Bush apporach to cultural reinvogoration?" That's the funniest > thing I've ever read. Thank you, Paul. I didn't write the article, only posted it. Glad to hear you're a life-affirmer, though. The alternative is so depressing. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 14:53:02 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:53:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/30/04 1:09 PM, Michael Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote: > One of Gioia's first publications after his appointment was a review of > Rexroth's Collected, published by Hammill's Press. The "tea-party" > Hammill managed to cancel was supposed to introduce Gioia. Hammill > wondered who thought of inviting him. It was probably Dana Gioia. It was most certainly Dana who invited him, and so typical. In supporting Hammill's publication of Rexroth, an anarcho-leftist outsider, Gioia showed his catholic tastes and non-political assessment of literary merit. A Rexroth fan myself since my late teens, I applaud both Dana's review and his inclusion of Hammill in the White House celebration, even if Hammill spat upon them to score a political point. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake Fri Jan 30 15:03:01 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:03:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA: A Conservative's Reaction Message-ID: Here's a reaction to the NEA increase from a writer at National Review: MARIE ANTOINETTE WATCH [Andrew Stuttaford] ... More cash for the NEA? Good grief. Every time you think that it's impossible for George W Bush to spring another rat from his hat, he goes and does it again, but, to take some recent instances, what else can you expect from a president who signs laws he believes to be unconstitutional, proposes a vast guestworker program in the middle of difficult times for blue collar America, recruits Jules Verne as a science advisor, squanders a SOTU driveling on about steroids, and as for the budget... Now there's the NEA. Roger Kimball makes the best case that can be made for the White House's decision to hurl money the country doesn't have at an institution the country doesn't need, but he's being far too kind. Even if it is agreed that government should be directly funding 'culture' (I don't think government should, but that's a different debate), the president's decision is bound to backfire. Remember O'Sullivan's law. Any organization that is not explicitly conservative will ultimately end up in the hands of the left. Dana Gioia may indeed be doing splendid work at the moment, but neither he nor George W. Bush will be in office forever. At some point in the future, maybe under a future Democratic administration or maybe just as a result of bureaucratic drift, the NEA will inevitably fall back into its old, bad habits - only this time on a much bigger budget. As one seems to be saying more and more these days: thanks for nothing, Mr. President. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From hruggier Fri Jan 30 15:23:51 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:23:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia References: Message-ID: <041c01c3e76e$fa306400$2e099942@Helen> Irony? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 1:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] More Gioia > > > Farewell Mapplethorpe, Hello Shakespeare > The NEA, the W. way. > By Roger Kimball > > Under normal circumstances, the White House announcement that the president > was seeking a big budget increase for the National Endowment for the Arts > might have been grounds for dismay. Pronounce the acronym "NEA," and most > people think Robert Mapplethorpe, photographs of crucifixes floating in > urine, and performance artists prancing about naked, smeared with chocolate, > and skirling about the evils of patriarchy. > > Thanks, but no thanks. > > But things have changed, and changed for the better at the NEA. The reason > can be summed up in two trochees: Dana Gioia, the distinguished poet and > critic who is the Endowment's new chairman. > > Within a matter of months, Mr. Gioia has transformed that moribund > institution into a vibrant force for the preservation and transmission of > artistic culture. He has cut out the cutting edge and put back the art. > Instead of supporting repellent "transgressive" freaks, he has instituted an > important new program to bring Shakespeare to communities across America. > And by Shakespeare I mean Shakespeare, not some PoMo rendition that portrays > Hamlet in drag or sets A Midsummer Night's Dream in a concentration camp. > (Check the website www.shakespeareinamericancommunities.org for more > information.) > > Mr. Gioia is moving on other fronts as well. He has hired a number of able > deputies who care about art and understand that what the public wants is > more access to good art < opera, poetry, theater, literature < not greater > exposure to social pathology dressed up as art. After a couple of decades of > cultural schizophrenia, the NEA has become a clear-sighted, robust > institution intent on bringing important art to the American people. > > It's quite odd, really. People keep telling us < that is, professors and CNN > commentators and Hollywood actors keep telling us < how very stupid > President Bush is. Yet everywhere one looks he is supporting some of the > most intelligent and dynamic people ever to occupy their cultural posts. > Dana Gioia at the NEA, his counterpart Bruce Cole at the National Endowment > for the Humanities, Leon Kass and his panel of distinguished scientists and > philosophers at the President's Council on Bioethics (see their website > www.bioethics.gov to get a sense of the good work they are doing on > clarifying the enormous moral issues surrounding the debate over > biotechnology). The Left keeps screaming about how dim George Bush is, but > in the meantime, he has illuminated one area of public life after another > with immensely talented and articulate people. > > There is plenty of room for debate about whether and to what extent > government should be directly involved in funding culture. But there can be > no argument that if we are going have public support of the arts, it should > be done in an enlightened and life-affirming way. This is the George Bush > approach to cultural reinvigoration. Conservatives < by which term I mean > people who are interested in conserving what is best from the past < should > applaud his efforts. After years in the wilderness, the NEA has finally come > home. > > < Roger Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion and author of Art's > Prospect: The Challenge of Tradition in an Age of Celebrity. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames Fri Jan 30 15:41:52 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:41:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: <1ab.1fb6a390.2d4c1b90@aol.com> In a message dated 1/30/04 3:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > I applaud both Dana's review and his > inclusion of Hammill in the White House celebration, even if Hammill spat > upon them to score a political point. Paul, I'm not anxious to rehash the history of this, but I think "spat upon" is an overstatement, even if entirely figurative. No one knows what he would have done had he attended the event. He may have, very politely, used his time/limelight to read a poem in opposition to the growing tide of war. I recall Marilyn Nelson said she had intended to wear a scarf emblazoned with a peace sign. My recollection is that the tea party was pre-emptively canceled because the White House was afraid a few other poets (like Hammil, who I think had already declined to attend) might speak their minds in front of the First Lady. Finnegan From anny.ballardini Fri Jan 30 16:35:36 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:35:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] hypergraphia References: <401AA170.14804298@earthlink.net> <035f01c3e760$697667b0$739edf18@atlas> Message-ID: <008801c3e778$ffa82fd0$d6737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> I will never read her article, I promised myself I would never finish it, I do not believe a word she is writing, I think this is her problem, I have better things to do, like watching a movie for example, writing to the list, doing the washing up, reading my mail, calling my people, working for bread, writing something interesting, I think the (unread by me) article shows the mental instability of the author (even if it is so rationally structured) and since it is based on research and statistics, of all those who collaborated and finally grouped up nicely, a similar comparison can be given by someone who writes only about sex and gives us easy keys to understand s/he suffers from sexual problems, here it is evident that the said author has a compulsive need to investigate her brain, because something is actually/possibly lacking. Or, she has worked on commission, and under this light I prefer yogurt with strawberries to her product. Best regards, Anny Ballardini From: "Michael Geary" > J. Cervantes wrote: > > > I heard it; I think her claim was that 70% of poets suffered from some > degree of bipolar disorder. A pretty dubious statistic. > > > > Yes. It makes me sad. Then happy. Then sad . . . > > Thank God she didn't say they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive, they were > obsessive-compulsive, they were obsessive-compulsive.... > > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary > Mike Geary.... > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 Fri Jan 30 17:47:19 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:47:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: <130.2a8c6d6b.2d4c38f7@cs.com> In a message dated 1/30/2004 2:04:21 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > It was most certainly Dana who invited him, and so typical. In supporting > Hammill's publication of Rexroth, an anarcho-leftist outsider, Gioia showed > his catholic tastes and non-political assessment of literary merit. A > Rexroth fan myself since my late teens, I applaud both Dana's review and his > inclusion of Hammill in the White House celebration, even if Hammill spat > upon them to score a political point. > > Paul Lake I believe the invites for this event were in the mail before Gioia took over the NEA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Fri Jan 30 17:53:10 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:53:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA: A Conservative's Reaction Message-ID: In a message dated 1/30/2004 2:14:53 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > Here's a reaction to the NEA increase from a writer at National Review: > Rush Limbaugh weighed in on it too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 13:13:29 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:13:29 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Fame Message-ID: > FAME > > [...] > > -- Barry Spacks nice _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ?net deals ? comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 13:14:49 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:14:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: > This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. Damn, now there's coffee all over my screen and keyboard. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up ? fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 31 13:24:33 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 19:24:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase References: Message-ID: <002401c3e827$7a5f2450$861c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> that you were sensitive to words I always knew, but that _reinvigoration_ should make you _sursauter_ like that... :-) a From: "Jon Corelis" > > This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. > > > Damn, now there's coffee all over my screen and keyboard. > > > ================================================== > > Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com > http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics > > ================================================== > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up - fast & reliable Internet access with prime > features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 13:25:34 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:25:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm a prophet! Message-ID: I sent this to another poetry list on April 1, 2003: FEDERAL POETRY SUBSIDIES PROPOSED Washington, D. C. (CNS) - In a surprise move, the Bush Administration has announced that it will propose legislation in Congress to subsidize the production of verse by American poets. The program, which will be modeled on the longstanding federal agricultural price support program, will be designed to ensure a market at a basic price support level for the nation's poetry output. According to administration spokeswoman April Narr, a goal of the subsidies will be to ensure the continuing production of particular types of verse for which the market is currently weak. "For instance," she said at a news conference this morning, "not too many people write sonnets or heroic couplets any more, so those types of verse would be eligible for special price supports." Narr also said in response to questions that although the details have yet to be worked out, subject matter may also be taken into account to determine the price support levels of different types of poems. "There are plenty poems being written about having an affair or traveling in Europe or watching your child grow up," she said, "so that sort of poetry probably needs less subsidy. But poems about junk yards or shaving cream or peeling an orange are more rare and may be deserving of more price support." When questioned as to whether the public will accept a government program which channels taxpayers' dollars to poets, Narr replied, "It's really not such an unusual idea when you think of it. After all, if the federal government can pay farmers to produce soybeans, why can't it pay poets to produce sonnets?" ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ? optimizes dial-up to the max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 From JforJames Sat Jan 31 14:11:05 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:11:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] godfather to American confessionalism Message-ID: <6.212cc87f.2d4d57c9@aol.com> http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/classics/story/0,6000,1135228,00.html Tuckerman's appeal to anyone who loved Wordsworth and Tennyson would naturally be strong; but his particular personal note, both confessional and oblique, has the fascination of something altogether more modern. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Jan 31 14:28:11 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:28:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] David Robert Books--Stanzas Contest Message-ID: <65.21a6ba8c.2d4d5bcb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:37:27 -0500 From: Kevin Walzer Subject: David Robert Books--Stanzas Contest This is just a reminder that the deadline for the David Robert Books Stanzas Contest for a full-length collection is February 15, 2004. For more information and guidelines, as well as a look at our current titles, please see this website: http://www.davidrobertbooks.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 14:45:12 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:45:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Robert Books--Stanzas Contest Message-ID: The fine print: "The winner receives $1,000 and 25 copies of his/her book; runners-up receive five copies of their published book and a royalty contract. Reading fee: $25.00." ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 From DICK Sat Jan 31 15:53:07 2004 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 04 15:53:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA increase Message-ID: <200401312054.i0VKsvm1120844@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:01:02 -0500 ************* Sam Gwynn wrote: > >Rush Limbaugh weighed in on it too. Sam, say it isn't so. Richard From JforJames Sat Jan 31 17:49:57 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:49:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Message-ID: <155.2c7221b4.2d4d8b15@aol.com> Does anyone have the full text of this piece and/or Milosz's response?. perhaps a URL.. ?Against the Poets,? which Witold Gombrowicz published in the Polish emigre journal Kultura. In this essay (to which Milosz published a rejoinder), which was clearly meant as an intellectual and cultural provocation, Gombrowicz assailed poetry and the poets with more heat than light, but also with considerable panache and sarcasm... "Ah, ah, Shelley, Ah, ah Slowacki! Ah, the word of the Poet, the mission of the Poet, and the soul of the Poet? I have to attack these prayers and spoil this ritual as much as I can simply in the name of elementary anger, which all flaws of style, all distortion, all flights from reality arouse in us?. The thesis of the? essay, that almost no one likes poems and that the world of verse is a fiction and a falsehood, will seem, I assume, as bold as it is frivolous. Yet here I stand before you and declare that I don't like poems at all and that they even bore me. Maybe you will say that I am a poor ignoramus. Yet I have laboured in art for a long time and its language is not completely alien to me?. Why then does this pharmaceutical extract called ?pure poetry? bore and weary me, especially when it appears in rhymed form? Why can't I stand this monotonous, endlessly lofty singing? Why do rhythm and rhyme put me to sleep? Why does the language of poets seem to me to be the least interesting language conceivable? Sugar is good for sweetening coffee, but not for eating by the spoonful like gruel. In pure, rhymed poetry, it's the excess that wearies; the excess of condensation and purification of all antipoetic elements, which results in poems similar to chemical products." -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sat Jan 31 18:08:44 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 00:08:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets References: <155.2c7221b4.2d4d8b15@aol.com> Message-ID: <003101c3e84f$2d98e0c0$861c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> I have a French edition here: Contre les Po?tes Editions Complexe / Le regard litteraire; with a preface by M. Carcassonne and C. Guias. I bought the book because I was touched by his Pornography (1962). Ce qui lasse dans la Po?sie pure, c'est l'exc?s de po?sie, oui, la pl?thore de paroles po?tiques, de m?taphores, de sublimation, - bref, l'exc?s de condensation - qui ?purent ces textes de tout ?l?ment anti-po?tique et dont l'accumulation fait finalement ressembler le po?me ? un produit chimique. My French is not that good any more... Difficult to find Gombrowicz on the net. Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Does anyone have the full text of this piece and/or Milosz's response?. perhaps a URL.. ?Against the Poets,? which Witold Gombrowicz published in the Polish emigre journal Kultura. In this essay (to which Milosz published a rejoinder), which was clearly meant as an intellectual and cultural provocation, Gombrowicz assailed poetry and the poets with more heat than light, but also with considerable panache and sarcasm... "Ah, ah, Shelley, Ah, ah Slowacki! Ah, the word of the Poet, the mission of the Poet, and the soul of the Poet? I have to attack these prayers and spoil this ritual as much as I can simply in the name of elementary anger, which all flaws of style, all distortion, all flights from reality arouse in us?. The thesis of the? essay, that almost no one likes poems and that the world of verse is a fiction and a falsehood, will seem, I assume, as bold as it is frivolous. Yet here I stand before you and declare that I don't like poems at all and that they even bore me. Maybe you will say that I am a poor ignoramus. Yet I have laboured in art for a long time and its language is not completely alien to me?. Why then does this pharmaceutical extract called ?pure poetry? bore and weary me, especially when it appears in rhymed form? Why can't I stand this monotonous, endlessly lofty singing? Why do rhythm and rhyme put me to sleep? Why does the language of poets seem to me to be the least interesting language conceivable? Sugar is good for sweetening coffee, but not for eating by the spoonful like gruel. In pure, rhymed poetry, it's the excess that wearies; the excess of condensation and purification of all antipoetic elements, which results in poems similar to chemical products." -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL Sat Jan 31 18:34:26 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:34:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Message-ID: In a message dated 1/31/2004 6:09:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes: have a French edition here: Contre les Po?tes Editions Complexe / Le regard litteraire; with a preface by M. Carcassonne and C. Guias. I bought the book because I was touched by his Pornography (1962). Ce qui lasse dans la Po?sie pure, c'est l'exc?s de po?sie, oui, la pl?thore de paroles po?tiques, de m?taphores, de sublimation, - bref, l'exc?s de condensation - qui ?purent ces textes de tout ?l?ment anti-po?tique et dont l'accumulation fait finalement ressembler le po?me ? un produit chimique. My French is not that good any more... Difficult to find Gombrowicz on the net. Anny Here's a reasonable pass at it, I guess, but Margo on Paris time will doubtless make it work a bit better in the morning: What wearies in pure poetry [meant sarcastically] is the excess of poetry, yes, the plethora of (self-consciously) Poetic words, of metaphors, of sublimation, - in short, the excess of compression - which purges these texts of any anti-poetic element and whose accumulation in the end makes of the poem resemble a pharmaceutical product. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atlas Sat Jan 31 18:42:49 2004 From: atlas (Michael Geary) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:42:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets References: <155.2c7221b4.2d4d8b15@aol.com> Message-ID: <028301c3e853$f012f650$739edf18@atlas> Yes, it's all pig shit. It makes nothing happen. So? That has nothing to do with my liking it. It's a fun game. Sometimes even poetical, like when it sometimes causes me to step out of my body and Wrightly break into blossom. But I do hate lit crit, don't get me wrong. Mike Geary ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 4:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets Does anyone have the full text of this piece and/or Milosz's response?. perhaps a URL.. ?Against the Poets,? which Witold Gombrowicz published in the Polish emigre journal Kultura. In this essay (to which Milosz published a rejoinder), which was clearly meant as an intellectual and cultural provocation, Gombrowicz assailed poetry and the poets with more heat than light, but also with considerable panache and sarcasm... "Ah, ah, Shelley, Ah, ah Slowacki! Ah, the word of the Poet, the mission of the Poet, and the soul of the Poet? I have to attack these prayers and spoil this ritual as much as I can simply in the name of elementary anger, which all flaws of style, all distortion, all flights from reality arouse in us?. The thesis of the? essay, that almost no one likes poems and that the world of verse is a fiction and a falsehood, will seem, I assume, as bold as it is frivolous. Yet here I stand before you and declare that I don't like poems at all and that they even bore me. Maybe you will say that I am a poor ignoramus. Yet I have laboured in art for a long time and its language is not completely alien to me?. Why then does this pharmaceutical extract called ?pure poetry? bore and weary me, especially when it appears in rhymed form? Why can't I stand this monotonous, endlessly lofty singing? Why do rhythm and rhyme put me to sleep? Why does the language of poets seem to me to be the least interesting language conceivable? Sugar is good for sweetening coffee, but not for eating by the spoonful like gruel. In pure, rhymed poetry, it's the excess that wearies; the excess of condensation and purification of all antipoetic elements, which results in poems similar to chemical products." -- Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trbell Sat Jan 31 18:34:06 2004 From: trbell (tom bell) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:34:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: A Conversation with Marjorie Perloff (from Fulcrum) Message-ID: <03ca01c3e852$b9300480$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Bernstein" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 5:09 PM Subject: A Conversation with Marjorie Perloff (from Fulcrum) > The Fall (#2) issue of Fulcrum (now out of print) featured Marjorie > Perloff's conversation with me. > > This is now available at Perloff's EPC home page: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/perloff/articles/mp_cb.html > > Thanks to Fulcrum editors Philip Nikolayev & Katia Kapovich. From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 19:46:08 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:46:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: NEA increase Message-ID: > This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration. Whenver I think of this now I imagine it as the caption to one of those news photos of the National Museum of Iraq. ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ? optimizes dial-up to the max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 From joncpoetics Sat Jan 31 20:02:32 2004 From: joncpoetics (Jon Corelis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:02:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against the poets Message-ID: Lierature bores me, especially great literature. -- John Berryman ================================================== Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics ================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418