From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  1 08:23:55 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:23:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  William Bronk, "Civitas Dei"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOENNIDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Civitas Dei

When it was plain that there was never to be
the City of God; after the line was clear
that there was no line and none ever to be made;
when it was plain that nothing at all was plain,
we looked from side to side, we turned back,
and no way there either, and here we were.

Yes, and here we are. Nowhere to go.
Already here because such as cities are
is such as the city of god can ever be
or, if there is meaning, such as was meant to be.
Hocus pocus, here is what there is:
one side of the street looks at the other side.

Among the magniloquent monuments of once joys
we walk with our long familiars: dread, disdain.

--William Bronk

fr. *The Empty Hand*, 1969

in *Selected Poems*
[New York: New Directions, 1995]

Hal           

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb  1 09:08:52 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:08:52 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Against the Poets
References: <a9.5026b061.2d4d9582@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00a601c3e8cc$ec425b50$bd1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

It seems an excellent translation to me:
_wearies_ is a good choice, and you also added in brackets a further comment on the intention of the writer.
Anny



From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com 


  In a message dated 1/31/2004 6:09:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
    have a French edition here:
    Contre les Po?tes
    Editions Complexe / Le regard litteraire; with a preface by M. Carcassonne and C. Guias. I bought the book because I was touched by his Pornography (1962). 

    Ce qui lasse dans la Po?sie pure, c'est l'exc?s de po?sie, oui, la pl?thore de paroles po?tiques, de m?taphores, de sublimation, - bref, l'exc?s de condensation - qui ?purent ces textes de tout ?l?ment anti-po?tique et dont l'accumulation fait finalement ressembler le po?me ? un produit chimique.

    My French is not that good any more...
    Difficult to find Gombrowicz on the net.

    Anny
  Here's a reasonable pass at it, I guess, but Margo on Paris time will doubtless make it work a bit better in the morning:

  What wearies in pure poetry [meant sarcastically] is the excess of poetry, yes, the plethora of (self-consciously) Poetic words, of metaphors, of sublimation, - in short, the excess of compression - which purges these texts of any anti-poetic element and whose accumulation in the end makes of the poem resemble a pharmaceutical product.

  Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/2d1c1b80/attachment.html>

From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Feb  1 11:42:57 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:42:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  William Bronk, "Civitas Dei"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOENNIDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006201c3e8e2$7303fd00$e6b35040@Helen>

Just to say thanks for all your postings - you cover the left
with great taste.

PS  I just got a flyer from Red Hen about the book that you and James
Cervantes have published -

Post a set of those poems as a teaser.

xxx
Helen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 8:23 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: William Bronk, "Civitas Dei"


>
> Civitas Dei
>
> When it was plain that there was never to be
> the City of God; after the line was clear
> that there was no line and none ever to be made;
> when it was plain that nothing at all was plain,
> we looked from side to side, we turned back,
> and no way there either, and here we were.
>
> Yes, and here we are. Nowhere to go.
> Already here because such as cities are
> is such as the city of god can ever be
> or, if there is meaning, such as was meant to be.
> Hocus pocus, here is what there is:
> one side of the street looks at the other side.
>
> Among the magniloquent monuments of once joys
> we walk with our long familiars: dread, disdain.
>
> --William Bronk
>
> fr. *The Empty Hand*, 1969
>
> in *Selected Poems*
> [New York: New Directions, 1995]
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb  1 12:06:27 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:06:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Rexroth Poem
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOENNIDAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <006201c3e8e2$7303fd00$e6b35040@Helen>
Message-ID: <020001c3e8e5$bca942f0$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Anybody out thar know anything about Kenneth Rexroth's "cubist" poems?  I'm
trying to find the title and publication date of one he wrote, probably in
the twenties or early thirties.  Five lines in length, its first four lines
are, "vvvvvvvvvvvv," "vvvvvvvvvv," "vvvvvvvv" and "v," respectively; its
last line consists of six words without spaces between them.  I need the
data for an entry I wrote for a reference book Burt Kimmelman is editing for
Facts-on-File.

thanks in advance for any help, Bob G.




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  1 12:13:30 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:13:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  William Bronk, "Civitas Dei"
In-Reply-To: <006201c3e8e2$7303fd00$e6b35040@Helen>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOEIDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

"Cover the left," eh? And here I thought I was being ecumenical.

Anyway, The Blue Moon Review published some of the collection
available as a pdf file at http://www.thebluemoon.com/poetry/cts.shtml .
Of course, if you Googled "Changing the Subject" good ol' Google
would help you bring it up outside of Acrobat.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html

 
{    Just to say thanks for all your postings - you cover the left
{    with great taste.
{    
{    PS  I just got a flyer from Red Hen about the book that you and James
{    Cervantes have published -
{    
{    Post a set of those poems as a teaser.
{    
{    xxx
{    Helen
{    ----- Original Message ----- 
{    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 8:23 AM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: William Bronk, "Civitas Dei"
{    
{    
{    >
{    > Civitas Dei
{    >
{    > When it was plain that there was never to be
{    > the City of God; after the line was clear
{    > that there was no line and none ever to be made;
{    > when it was plain that nothing at all was plain,
{    > we looked from side to side, we turned back,
{    > and no way there either, and here we were.
{    >
{    > Yes, and here we are. Nowhere to go.
{    > Already here because such as cities are
{    > is such as the city of god can ever be
{    > or, if there is meaning, such as was meant to be.
{    > Hocus pocus, here is what there is:
{    > one side of the street looks at the other side.
{    >
{    > Among the magniloquent monuments of once joys
{    > we walk with our long familiars: dread, disdain.
{    >
{    > --William Bronk
{    >
{    > fr. *The Empty Hand*, 1969
{    >
{    > in *Selected Poems*
{    > [New York: New Directions, 1995]
{    >
{    > Hal
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    >
{    >
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb  1 12:24:21 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:24:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Rexroth Poem
In-Reply-To: <020001c3e8e5$bca942f0$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BC429265.6623%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Can't help you with a 5-line poem, but the much-longer poem "Fundamental
Disagreement With Two Contemporaries" includes this passage:


origin of vector
description of vectors
the personal pronoun
vvvvvvvvvvvv
  vvvvvvvvvv
    vvvvvvvv
           v
i
modulatepersistendureverserevolvereciprocate-
   oscillateperpetuate
                            ARRIVE


---------

And that's about all I can stand to type out (don't hold me to the *exact*
typography above, or even the precise # of v's). . . .

I found the poem in the old New Directions selection of shorter poems, which
identifies the piece as appearing in *The Art of Worldly Wisdom:
1920-1930*.  

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:06:27 -0500
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] A Rexroth Poem
> 
> Anybody out thar know anything about Kenneth Rexroth's "cubist" poems?  I'm
> trying to find the title and publication date of one he wrote, probably in
> the twenties or early thirties.  Five lines in length, its first four lines
> are, "vvvvvvvvvvvv," "vvvvvvvvvv," "vvvvvvvv" and "v," respectively; its
> last line consists of six words without spaces between them.  I need the
> data for an entry I wrote for a reference book Burt Kimmelman is editing for
> Facts-on-File.
> 
> thanks in advance for any help, Bob G.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb  1 12:30:52 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:30:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Rexroth
Message-ID: <BC4293EC.6625%grahamd@ripon.edu>

On What Planet 

Uniformly over the whole countryside
The warm air flows imperceptibly seaward;
The autumn haze drifts in deep bands
Over the pale water;
White egrets stand in the blue marshes;
Tamalpais, Diablo, St. Helena
Float in the air.
Climbing on the cliffs of Hunter's Hill
We look out over fifty miles of sinuous
Interpenetration of mountains and sea.

Leading up a twisted chimney,
Just as my eyes rise to the level
Of a small cave, two white owls
Fly out, silent, close to my face.
They hover, confused in the sunlight,
And disappear into the recesses of the cliff.

All day I have been watching a new climber,
A young girl with ash blond hair
And gentle confident eyes.
She climbs slowly, precisely,
With unwasted grace.
While I am coiling the ropes,
Watching the spectacular sunset,
She turns to me and says, quietly,
"It must be very beautiful, the sunset,
On Saturn, with the rings and all the moons."

----Kenneth Rexroth



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  1 12:37:57 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:37:57 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  William Bronk, "Civitas Dei"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOEIDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <401D3975.F5438B4E@earthlink.net>

Like Hal says, but you won't get the full flavor unless you read (buy
first!) the whole book ;-)

I'm starting to read mail again - even responding - after a rather
tragic month.  My mother passed away Dec. 26th and my brother (the one
who was one year younger than me) suffered a massive heart attack and
died last week on Jan. 24th.  I was in Texas and no-mail for a week and
am just now getting the urge to see what the rest of the world is doing.
 The downside is I have to start the semester all over again on Monday -
there's even one class I've not met yet.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> "Cover the left," eh? And here I thought I was being ecumenical.
> 
> Anyway, The Blue Moon Review published some of the collection
> available as a pdf file at http://www.thebluemoon.com/poetry/cts.shtml .
> Of course, if you Googled "Changing the Subject" good ol' Google
> would help you bring it up outside of Acrobat.
> 
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> The Sonnet Project:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html
> 
> 
> {    Just to say thanks for all your postings - you cover the left
> {    with great taste.
> {
> {    PS  I just got a flyer from Red Hen about the book that you and James
> {    Cervantes have published -
> {
> {    Post a set of those poems as a teaser.
> {
> {    xxx
> {    Helen
> {    ----- Original Message -----
> {    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> {    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> {    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 8:23 AM
> {    Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: William Bronk, "Civitas Dei"
> {
> {
> {    >
> {    > Civitas Dei
> {    >
> {    > When it was plain that there was never to be
> {    > the City of God; after the line was clear
> {    > that there was no line and none ever to be made;
> {    > when it was plain that nothing at all was plain,
> {    > we looked from side to side, we turned back,
> {    > and no way there either, and here we were.
> {    >
> {    > Yes, and here we are. Nowhere to go.
> {    > Already here because such as cities are
> {    > is such as the city of god can ever be
> {    > or, if there is meaning, such as was meant to be.
> {    > Hocus pocus, here is what there is:
> {    > one side of the street looks at the other side.
> {    >
> {    > Among the magniloquent monuments of once joys
> {    > we walk with our long familiars: dread, disdain.
> {    >
> {    > --William Bronk
> {    >
> {    > fr. *The Empty Hand*, 1969
> {    >
> {    > in *Selected Poems*
> {    > [New York: New Directions, 1995]
> {    >
> {    > Hal
> {    >
> {    > Halvard Johnson
> {    > ===============
> {    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> {    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> {    >
> {    > _______________________________________________
> {    > New-Poetry mailing list
> {    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> {    >
> {    >
> {
> {
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb  1 12:52:47 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:52:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Rexroth Poem
In-Reply-To: <BC429265.6623%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BC42990F.662A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A further note: 

There's an article by Sam Hamill on Rexroth in *Jacket*, and it mentions the
poem in question:

http://jacketmagazine.com/24/rex-hamill.html

Apparently the two contemporaries Rexroth is taking issue with in his cubist
poem are Tristan Tzara and Andre Breton.

Also, a way-cool Rexroth archive at this Url:

http://www.bopsecrets.org/rexroth/index.htm#Texts%20at%20This%20Site

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


> From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:24:21 -0600
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] A Rexroth Poem
> 
> Can't help you with a 5-line poem, but the much-longer poem "Fundamental
> Disagreement With Two Contemporaries" includes this passage:
> 
> 
> origin of vector
> description of vectors
> the personal pronoun
> vvvvvvvvvvvv
> vvvvvvvvvv
> vvvvvvvv
> v
> i
> modulatepersistendureverserevolvereciprocate-
> oscillateperpetuate
> ARRIVE
> 
> 
> ---------
> 
> And that's about all I can stand to type out (don't hold me to the *exact*
> typography above, or even the precise # of v's). . . .
> 
> I found the poem in the old New Directions selection of shorter poems, which
> identifies the piece as appearing in *The Art of Worldly Wisdom:
> 1920-1930*.  
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
>> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:06:27 -0500
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] A Rexroth Poem
>> 
>> Anybody out thar know anything about Kenneth Rexroth's "cubist" poems?  I'm
>> trying to find the title and publication date of one he wrote, probably in
>> the twenties or early thirties.  Five lines in length, its first four lines
>> are, "vvvvvvvvvvvv," "vvvvvvvvvv," "vvvvvvvv" and "v," respectively; its
>> last line consists of six words without spaces between them.  I need the
>> data for an entry I wrote for a reference book Burt Kimmelman is editing for
>> Facts-on-File.
>> 
>> thanks in advance for any help, Bob G.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Thom424 at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 12:51:51 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:51:51 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Galway Kinnell
Message-ID: <1d6.196b9b2b.2d4e96b7@aol.com>

from Garrison Keillor's "The Writer's Almanac":

SUNDAY, 1 FEBRUARY, 2004

It's the birthday of poet Galway Kinnell
http://mail.publicradio.org/site/R?i=smvaVwvpvIdp-GW9jh2-kg..
born in Providence, Rhode Island (1927). He became obsessed
with the poetry of William Butler Yeats in college when his
roommate, the poet W. S. Merwin, woke him up one night and
read Yeats to him until dawn. After that night, Kinnell
devoted himself to writing poetry in the style of Yeats. He
eventually found his own voice as a poet, but he named all
of his children after important figures in Yeats's work.

He said, "To me, poetry is somebody standing up, so to
speak, and saying, with as little concealment as possible,
what it is for him or her to be on earth at this moment."


First Song

Then it was dusk in Illinois, the small boy
After an afternoon of carting dung
Hung on the rail fence, a sapped thing
Weary to crying. Dark was growing tall
And he began to hear the pond frogs all
Calling on his ear with what seemed their joy.

Soon their sound was pleasant for a boy
Listening in the smoky dusk and the nightfall
Of Illinois, and from the fields two small
Boys came bearing cornstalk violins
And they rubbed the cornstalk bows with resins
And the three sat there scraping of their joy.

It was now fine music the frogs and the boys
Did in the towering Illinois twilight make
And into dark in spite of a shoulder's ache
A boy's hunched body loved out of a stalk
The first song of his happiness, and the song woke
His heart to the darkness and into the sadness of joy.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/001f2fb0/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb  1 12:57:37 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:57:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] One more Rexroth
In-Reply-To: <BC4293EC.6625%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BC429A31.662D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

PORTRAIT OF THE AUTHOR AS A YOUNG ANARCHIST

1917-18-19, 
While things were going on in Europe,
Our most used term of scorn or abuse
Was ?bushwa.? We employed it correctly,
But we thought it was French for ?bullshit.?
I lived in Toledo, Ohio,
On Delaware Avenue, the line
Between the rich and poor neighborhoods.
We played in the jungles by Ten Mile Creek,
And along the golf course in Ottawa Park.
There were two classes of kids, and they
Had nothing in common: the rich kids
Who worked as caddies, and the poor kids
Who snitched golf balls. I belonged to the
Saving group of exceptionalists
Who, after dark, and on rainy days,
Stole out and shat in the golf holes.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb  1 13:18:54 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:18:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Rexroth Poem
References: <BC429265.6623%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <023101c3e8ef$db891dd0$4aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Can't help you with a 5-line poem, but the much-longer poem "Fundamental
> Disagreement With Two Contemporaries" includes this passage:
>
>
> origin of vector
> description of vectors
> the personal pronoun
> vvvvvvvvvvvv
>   vvvvvvvvvv
>     vvvvvvvv
>            v
> i
> modulatepersistendureverserevolvereciprocate-
>    oscillateperpetuate
>                             ARRIVE
>
>
> ---------
>
> And that's about all I can stand to type out (don't hold me to the *exact*
> typography above, or even the precise # of v's). . . .
>
> I found the poem in the old New Directions selection of shorter poems,
which
> identifies the piece as appearing in *The Art of Worldly Wisdom:
> 1920-1930*.

Thanks much, David.  That must be the one the friend who told me about it
meant.  If I don't here about another v-poem of Rexroth's I'll just change
my text so it's about this one.

--Bob G.




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 16:34:55 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:34:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Against the poets
Message-ID: <149.2158f77c.2d4ecaff@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/31/2004 8:03:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
joncpoetics at hotmail.com writes:

> Lierature bores me, especially great literature.
> 
>                 -- John Berryman
> 
> 

If Philip Levine's memoir the Bread of Time is not
a fabrication, Berryman doth protest too much.
He had memorized great swaths of
classic poetry which he could use to regal or 
to chide his students.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/4d34beb6/attachment.html>

From trbell at comcast.net  Sun Feb  1 15:09:40 2004
From: trbell at comcast.net (tom bell)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:09:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: mini-MAG - outside the ordinary
Message-ID: <00fd01c3e8ff$549ebea0$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net>

This issue also contains the first of my interactive dialog columns on
writing for the health of it with contributions from Joel Weishaus, Dan
Shapiro, Frances Cartier, and Johanna Shapiro.

tom bell

----- Original Message -----
From: "august highland" <litob at san.rr.com>
To: <trbell at comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:29 PM
Subject: mini-MAG - outside the ordinary


***Please Tell Readers and Writers about the New mini-MAG***


Dear Writers.

The first issue of the mini-MAG is online at www.theminimag.com

GIOVANNA MULAS: (Italy)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/giovanna_mulas/index.html

BIRGITTA JONSDOTTIR: (Iceland)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/birgitta_jonsdottir/index.html

HARRY POLKINHORN: (USA)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/harry_polkinhorn/index.html

STEPHEN-PAUL MARTIN: (USA)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/stephen_paul_martin/index.html

RICH QUATRONE: (USA)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/rich_quatrone/index.html

BRENT BECHTEL: (USA)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/brent_bechtel/index.html

JAN OSCAR HANSEN (Norway)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/jan_oscar_hansen/bio.html

UGLY DUCKLING PRESS (Eastern European Poets)
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/ugly_duckling_press/index.html

Much, much more.

Send your submissions to augie at muse-apprentice-guild.com

The mini-MAG
--Outside The Ordinary
www.theminimag.com


***Please Tell Readers and Writers about the New mini-MAG***

August Highland - Editor
www.muse-apprentice-guild.com
www.cultureanimal.com
www.alphanumericlabs.com


_______

If you feel you have received this notice in error and would like to be
removed from the mailing list, please send a blank email to
litob at san.rr.com.



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb  1 16:45:59 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:45:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Berrymanic
In-Reply-To: <149.2158f77c.2d4ecaff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC42CFB7.664C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Yeah, there was no more thoroughly literary creature than John Berryman.

But of course no one ever believes him when he claims that Henry's opinions
aren't necessarily his own. . . .

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


From: JforJames at aol.com
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:34:55 EST
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:  Against the poets


In a message dated 1/31/2004 8:03:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
joncpoetics at hotmail.com writes:

Lierature bores me, especially great literature.

                -- John Berryman



If Philip Levine's memoir the Bread of Time is not
a fabrication, Berryman doth protest too much.
He had memorized great swaths of
classic poetry which he could use to regal or
to chide his students.
Finnegan 




From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  1 17:04:19 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 14:04:19 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Against the poets
Message-ID: <200402012148.i11Lmswd139936@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

But I think Levine misses the point--
it's exactly because Berryman so took to heart
"great swaths of classic poetry"
that that statement (even if the speaker isn't
"suppossed to" be Berryman himself) in that poem is made.

----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:  Against the poets
Date: Sun, Feb 1, 2004, 1:34 PM


In a message dated 1/31/2004 8:03:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
joncpoetics at hotmail.com writes:

Lierature bores me, especially great literature.

                -- John Berryman



If Philip Levine's memoir the Bread of Time is not
a fabrication, Berryman doth protest too much.
He had memorized great swaths of
classic poetry which he could use to regal or
to chide his students.
Finnegan 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/dbff41be/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 17:03:18 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:03:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <4e.272c9050.2d4ed1a6@aol.com>

Autumn Begins in Martins Ferry, Ohio

In the Shreve High football stadium,
I think of Polacks nursing long beers in Tiltonsville,
And gray faces of Negroes in the blast furnace at Benwood,
And the ruptured night watchman of Wheeling Steel,
Dreaming of heroes.

All the proud fathers are ashamed to go home.
Their women cluck like starved pullets,
Dying for love.

Therefore, 
Their sons grows suicidally beautiful
At the beginning of October,
And gallop terribly against each other's bodies.  

                --James Wright
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/322202ce/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Feb  1 17:13:51 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:13:51 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <149.2159e318.2d4ed41f@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 4:03:54 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> Autumn Begins in Martins Ferry, Ohio
> 
> In the Shreve High football stadium,
> I think of Polacks nursing long beers in Tiltonsville,
> And gray faces of Negroes in the blast furnace at Benwood,
> And the ruptured night watchman of Wheeling Steel,
> Dreaming of heroes.
> 
> All the proud fathers are ashamed to go home.
> Their women cluck like starved pullets,
> Dying for love.
> 
> Therefore, 
> Their sons grows suicidally beautiful
> At the beginning of October,
> And gallop terribly against each other's bodies.  
> 
>              --James Wright
> 
But by the first of February, they're all sick of it.
Go, Panthers!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/f64b862b/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 17:14:46 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:14:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Against the poets
Message-ID: <b7.3bf13505.2d4ed456@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 4:49:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:

> But I think Levine misses the point--
> it's exactly because Berryman so took to heart
> "great swaths of classic poetry"
> that that statement (even if the speaker isn't
> "suppossed to" be Berryman himself) in that poem is made.
> 

I wasn't trying  to speak for Levine...it was I who perhaps missed
the point. I do know both things can be true. "Anxiety of influence"
and all that. The necessity to dismiss the masters,
to reject the tradition, in order to move forward and 
then transcend through one's art.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/c9a713d0/attachment.html>

From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  1 17:38:36 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 14:38:36 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Against the poets
Message-ID: <200402012223.i11MNCwd046524@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net>

Or possibly, just possibly, a particular moment of 
self-loathing disgust
like "look here I am, with all these beautiful intense books
and writings that have often, usually, gotten me out of a funk,
and, now, they can't. Or I can't get anything out of them...."

i don't think we need to say he's dismissing the masters

or "he fills his head with culture; he gives himself an ulcer"
(gang of four) and all that...

I wasn't trying  to speak for Levine...it was I who perhaps missed
the point. I do know both things can be true. "Anxiety of influence"
and all that. The necessity to dismiss the masters,
to reject the tradition, in order to move forward and
then transcend through one's art.
Finnegan

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/6c4c5c0e/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 17:25:54 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:25:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <29.5029effb.2d4ed6f2@aol.com>

The Bard's Unsung Superbowl Sonnet

Lo! as your careful safety runs to catch
One of his Panther feather'd tight ends broke away,
Sets down his cleats and makes a swift dispatch
In pursuit of the thing he would have stay,
Whilst his neglected man holds him in chase,
Cries to catch him whose busy care is bent
To follow that which flies before his face,
Not prizing his poor receiver's triumph;
So runn'st thou after that which flies from thee,
Whilst I thy fan chase thee afar behind;
But if thou catch thy hope, turn back to me,
And play the player's part, kiss me, be kind:
So will I pray that thou mayst have thy 'Will,'
If thou turn back, and my loud crying still.


Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/c86e48f0/attachment.html>

From joncpoetics at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  1 17:26:30 2004
From: joncpoetics at hotmail.com (Jon Corelis)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 14:26:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  If you imagine
Message-ID: <BAY7-F111Cfg0y00ulf00010a5a@hotmail.com>

If you imagine

by Raymond Queneau


If you imagine
if you imagine
little sweetie little sweetie
if you imagine
this will this will this
will last forever
this season of
this season of
season of love
you're fooling yourself
little sweetie little sweetie
you're fooling yourself

If you think little one
if you think ah ah
that that rosy complexion
that waspy waist
those lovely muscles
the enamel nails
nymph thigh
and your light foot
if you think little one
that will that will that
will last forever
you're fooling yourself
little sweetie little sweetie
you're fooling yourself

The lovely days disappear
the lovely holidays
suns and planets
go round in a circle
but you my little one
you go straight
toward you know not what
very slowly draw near
the sudden wrinkle
the weighty fat
the triple chin
the flabby muscle
come gather gather
the roses the roses
roses of life
and may their petals
be a calm sea
of happinesses
come gather gather
if you don't do it
you're fooling yourself
little sweetie little sweetie
you're fooling yourself


     -- translated by Michael Benedikt


==================================================

Jon Corelis        joncpoetics at hotmail.com        
http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics

==================================================

_________________________________________________________________
Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed 
experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Feb  1 17:30:39 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:30:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <110.2d972c44.2d4ed80f@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 4:26:50 PM Central Standard Time, 
FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: 
> The Bard's Unsung Superbowl Sonnet
>   
>  Lo! as your careful safety runs to catch
> 
>  One of his Panther feather'd tight ends broke away,
>  Sets down his cleats and makes a swift dispatch
>  In pursuit of the thing he would have stay,
>  Whilst his neglected man holds him in chase,
>  Cries to catch him whose busy care is bent
>  To follow that which flies before his face,
>  Not prizing his poor receiver's triumph;
>  So runn'st thou after that which flies from thee,
>  Whilst I thy fan chase thee afar behind;
>  But if thou catch thy hope, turn back to me,
>  And play the player's part, kiss me, be kind:
>  So will I pray that thou mayst have thy 'Will,'
>  If thou turn back, and my loud crying still.
>   
>  Jef
> 
I hope you've got a second six-pack for the game!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/d0f84fe1/attachment.html>

From joncpoetics at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  1 17:37:30 2004
From: joncpoetics at hotmail.com (Jon Corelis)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 14:37:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against the poets
Message-ID: <BAY7-F66FxDer9yBNGH000102fe@hotmail.com>

I think you have to remember how that poem begins:

        Life, friends, is boring.  We must not say so.

Many of you on this list are academics.  Come on, be honest:  haven't you 
ever, even just once, while you were chalking an exegesis of "Dover Beach" 
on the blackboard, had the urge to turn to the class and say, "Man, this is 
boring.  I mean, what are we reading this shit for?"


==================================================

Jon Corelis        joncpoetics at hotmail.com        
http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics

==================================================

_________________________________________________________________
There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage!  Learn more. 
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1



From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 17:39:58 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:39:58 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <39.43642279.2d4eda3e@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 5:31:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:
I hope you've got a second six-pack for the game! 
I resemble that remark

JL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/3d332f8f/attachment.html>

From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Feb  1 04:49:27 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:49:27 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Print
In-Reply-To: <200402011701.i11H12bk012647@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200402011701.i11H12bk012647@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100303bc427359bb78@[204.215.201.15]>

Since when have the facts impeded the RadLibs (from Prof. Gudding to 
Vincent and now Corelis) from concocting news to slander President 
Bush if actualities will not admit their perjuries in the court of 
public inquiry.  It would seem by his inuendos that Corelis would 
prefer the cultural reinvigoration of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. 
Anything that Corelis can say to deride, undermine, or defame 
President Bush, he, and his ilk, will say it, even if untrue because 
it must be true simply because irksome is as irksome does.  But, one 
thing it won't get him, as it could have under the Clintonistas: a 
grant from the National Endowment for the Arts.  Start looking for 
hanging chads, Johnny.  Your candidate looks to be a hanging cad, so 
you're on the right track.

John Corelis versus Dana Gioia.

Noam Chomsky versus Harvey Mansfield.

George Soros (Mega billionaire, backer of RadLib DemKrat attack dogs 
to takedown President Bush) versus Karl Popper (Oxford professor who 
denounced Soros' interpretations of his term, "Open Society.")

Al Franken versus Michael Savage (The first North Beach Conservative.)

Michael Moore versus anyone who doesn't believe in being a fat slob 
on a perpetually bad hair day.

The National Organization of Women versus the Daughters of the 
American Revolution.

The American Civil Liberties Union versus The Harvard Law School pre 
Roscoe Pound.


Richard Dillon
Bush Country, USA





Message: 3
From: "Jon Corelis" <joncpoetics at hotmail.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:46:08 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  NEA increase
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

  > This is the George Bush approach to cultural reinvigoration.

Whenver I think of this now I imagine it as the caption to one of those news
photos of the National Museum of Iraq.





At 02:35 PM +0800 5/6/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>To: new-poetry-wiz.cath.vt.edu
>From: ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
>Subject: Vincent & Gothic News Legerdemain Refuted with a Johnsonian 
>"Thus."  Sumerian Magical Harp Never Plucked by Looters!
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>>
>>"The most significant of the damaged pieces was the Golden Harp of 
>>Ur. But investigators determined that the golden head on the 
>>damaged antiquity, feared missing, was only a copy. Museum 
>>officials confirmed to investigators that the original head was 
>>placed in a storage vault at the Iraqi Central Bank sometime before 
>>the war."
>>==============================================================================
>>
>>
>>Mr. Vincent's propaganda was never true.  It was concocted by 
>>wishful thinking of a desire, failed, to impugn the American 
>>military campaign in Iraq.  First, the entire piece of legerdemain, 
>>and, afterwards, the truth:
>>
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: <mailto:steph484 at pacbell.net>Stephen Vincent
>>>To: <mailto:POETICS at listserv.buffalo.edu>UB Poetics discussion group
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:43 PM
>>>Subject: Sumerian Harp Ritual On Washington Mall
>>>
>>>Sumerian Harp Ritual On Washington Mall
>>>
>>>(Gothic News Service, 04/16) They gather daily now, in contingents 
>>>of 81, dressed in black gowns - each bearing 9 thin vertical gold 
>>>stripes - gold caps and veils over half of their white chalked 
>>>faces, each with a thick, black greased arc under the one exposed 
>>>left eye. On the Washington Mall, between high noon and six 
>>>o'clock, in neatly defined rows and columns - 9 across and 9 deep 
>>>- the figures move in a silent, uniform procession, walking in 
>>>diagonals across the Mall from one Museum to the next, starting 
>>>from the National Gallery of Art, moving back and forth to the 
>>>National Air & Space Museum, American History, Hirshhorn Museum 
>>>and Sculpture Gallery, Natural History, the Arthur M. Sackler 
>>>Gallery, American History, and the US  Holocaust Memorial Museum. 
>>>The procession stops momentarily at the porch or entrance of each 
>>>Museum, makes a slight, speechless bow, before turning around in 
>>>unison to slowly proceed across the grass to the next one, moving 
>>>from one end of the Mall to the other, turning around at the 
>>>Holocaust Museum, and retracing its steps to again momentarily bow 
>>>before each Museum.
>>>
>>>For many on-lookers, most of whom join the apparent ritual out of 
>>>sympathy or curiosity, the meaning of the procession becomes more 
>>>clear when they notice a discrete image of a golden harp that is 
>>>sewn into the upper sleeve of each garment. "Sumeria, National 
>>>Museum, Iraq, the solid gold harp, 3500 BC, stolen or smashed to 
>>>pieces," several whisper. "Nine strings on the harp, nine gold 
>>>stripes on the gowns, nine lines in procession. It's a mourning, a 
>>>grieving."
>>>
>>>"The oldest song - a ballad - in the world," one kind scholarly 
>>>man offered, "was probably first played on the Sumerian harp. The 
>>>tone of each string was connected to the movement and mythical 
>>>powers of the moon, the planets and the stars. This harp is at the 
>>>origin of all western music."  Like a bunch of ancient Greeks, the 
>>>mourners stay mute, as if - with the exception of the procession's 
>>>color and movement -  yet unable to rise above the trauma of 
>>>cultural loss.
>>>
>>>A few if the on-lookers were less kind. "Get over it," one young 
>>>person yelled from the Holocaust Museum entrance. "Fragmentation 
>>>defined the Twentieth century and its going to define this one and 
>>>probably the next. The job of the artist and poet is to pick up 
>>>the rubble and either weld it into something beautiful or frame 
>>>and enjoy the resonance of pieces in the ruin." After pausing for 
>>>a moment - probably because many listening were shocked - he 
>>>added, "And don't you worry, if American generals and soldiers 
>>>permitted it in Iraq, if it's in the Government's interest, they 
>>>can do the same thing here. The barbarians are always at the 
>>>gates."
>>>
>>>Not everybody bought into his paranoid vision - which was followed 
>>>by a demonic laugh - but it provided a curious juxtaposition to 
>>>today's procession on the Mall.  This week it's been reported that 
>>>several similar mute processions have formed in London, Paris, 
>>>Berlin, Rome, Athens, Istanbul, Cairo, and Damascus - each of them 
>>>representing the destroyed or stolen treasures of Arts and Letters 
>>>from Baghdad's Museums and Libraries.
>>>
>>>
>>>(c) Gothics News Service
>>>Please feel free to distribute through out the Web
>>
>>
>>And now the FACTS that refute in each particular and in its 
>>entirety ALL that Mr. Vincent and "Gothic News Service" attempted 
>>to con the poetry world to believe:
>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted 
>>>on Mon, May. 05, 2003
>>>
>>>Most antiquities found, unharmed
>>>By Christine Spolar
>>>CHICAGO TRIBUNE
>>>
>>>BAGHDAD - The vast majority of the Iraqi trove of antiquities 
>>>feared stolen or broken have been found inside the National Museum 
>>>in Baghdad, according to American investigators who compiled an 
>>>inventory over the weekend of the ransacked galleries.
>>>
>>>A total of 38 antiquities, not tens of thousands, are now believed 
>>>to be missing. Among them is a single display of Babylonian 
>>>cuneiform tablets that accounts for nine missing items.
>>>
>>>The single most valuable missing piece is the Vase of Warka, a 
>>>white limestone bowl dating from 3000 B.C.
>>>
>>>The inventory, compiled by a military and civilian team headed by 
>>>Marine Col. Matthew Bogdanos, refutes reports that Iraq's renowned 
>>>treasures of civilization - as many as 170,000 individual 
>>>artifacts - had been scattered or lost during the U.S.-led war 
>>>against Iraq. It also raises questions about why any of the 
>>>artifacts went missing.
>>>
>>>The looting may have occurred April 10-12, two days after museum 
>>>officials fled the grounds amid a battle in which gunners of the 
>>>Fedayeen paramilitary force entered the complex and began firing 
>>>on advancing U.S. tanks.
>>>
>>>In one instance, investigators found that intruders had taken some 
>>>less-valuable artifacts from a storage room in the basement of the 
>>>museum. That theft, in a little-known storage area, has raised 
>>>suspicions that the thieves had knowledge of the museum and its 
>>>storage practices.
>>>
>>>Investigators, armed with chisels and a sledgehammer, broke 
>>>through hastily constructed barricades Saturday to search several 
>>>large storage rooms in the museum.
>>>
>>>In one storage area on the second floor, they discovered evidence 
>>>of a gunner's nest. From debris left behind, investigators 
>>>concluded that a gunner was armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and 
>>>rocket-propelled grenades.
>>>
>>>About a foot from the gunner's lookout was a hole punched through 
>>>the wall by a 25mm shell. Investigators surmised that the gunman 
>>>fled after that single volley from allied forces.
>>>
>>>Damage to the museum's administrative offices was extensive, with 
>>>desks, wiring, water fixtures and chairs hauled out by looters. 
>>>Artifacts, apparently obscured in some instances by the rubble 
>>>left by looters, emerged largely unscathed.
>>>
>>>"There is no comparison in the level of destruction seen in the 
>>>museum and that seen in the administrative offices," Bogdanos 
>>>said. "It's absolute wanton destruction in the offices. We didn't 
>>>see anywhere near that destruction in the museum. [People] stole 
>>>what they could use. They left the antiquities."
>>>
>>>Investigators, still compiling information about what possibly 
>>>occurred during the chaotic takeover of Baghdad by U.S. and 
>>>British troops, are concluding that little damage occurred to 
>>>antiquities displayed at the museum. Investigators counted 17 
>>>display cases out of 300 to 400 cases there as destroyed. Many of 
>>>the items apparently were removed before the looting.
>>>
>>>In addition, investigators have counted 22 items that were 
>>>damaged, including 11 clay pots on display in corridors. Most of 
>>>those damaged artifacts are restored pieces and can be restored 
>>>again, museum officials told investigators.
>>>
>>>The most significant of the damaged pieces was the Golden Harp of 
>>>Ur. But investigators determined that the golden head on the 
>>>damaged antiquity, feared missing, was only a copy. Museum 
>>>officials confirmed to investigators that the original head was 
>>>placed in a storage vault at the Iraqi Central Bank sometime 
>>>before the war.
>>>
>>>The inventory was compiled after investigators examined five large 
>>>storage areas in the museum Saturday to check for looting. Each 
>>>room was lined with shelves holding plastic containers filled with 
>>>envelopes of small, less-valuable artifacts, such as individual 
>>>beads or amulets.
>>>
>>>There was no apparent sign of forced entry to the storage sites, 
>>>and the doors were locked when investigators arrived. Museum staff 
>>>told investigators they had no keys to the room, so investigators 
>>>remain uncertain how entry was made.
>>>
>>>Investigators found that the basement storage area, which held 
>>>thousands of small items not deemed suitable for display, had been 
>>>disturbed in one of the four rooms. They broke through a 
>>>cinder-block barrier to the room to find hundreds of cardboard 
>>>boxes intact and about 90 plastic boxes, containing about 5,000 
>>>less-valuable items, missing.
>>>
>>>A boxful of such items was retrieved about a week ago near Al-Kut, 
>>>investigators said, and it is likely that the intruders are 
>>>attempting to move other such artifacts outside Baghdad.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>
>
>--
>

-- 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/8b397d4f/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Feb  1 17:58:04 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 17:58:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against the poets
Message-ID: <ba.4ec12133.2d4ede7c@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 4:38:03 PM Central Standard Time, 
joncpoetics at hotmail.com writes: 
> 
> I think you have to remember how that poem begins:
> 
>         Life, friends, is boring.  We must not say so.
> 
> Many of you on this list are academics.  Come on, be honest:  haven't you 
> ever, even just once, while you were chalking an exegesis of "Dover Beach" 
> on the blackboard, had the urge to turn to the class and say, "Man, this is 
> boring.  I mean, what are we reading this shit for?"
> 
Yep.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/38b828e8/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Feb  1 18:06:48 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:06:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <180.254e13ef.2d4ee088@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 4:41:03 PM Central Standard Time, 
FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: 
> 
> In a message dated 2/1/2004 5:31:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
>  
> >> I hope you've got a second six-pack for the game! 
> 
> I resemble that remark
>   
>  JL
> 
I don't have the time to write a sonnet, but I offer the following first 
lines for anyone who's not watching the game.

The expense of tickets is a dirty shame

Shall I compare thee to a fumbled punt?

When on fourth down and thirty-some to go

Joe Namath's knees were nothing like the sun

Boomer and Deion make a lovely pair

Now Gibbs is back can Redskins overcome

Well, back to the tube.  I may be old, but I'll always be younger than Steven 
Tyler.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/fb51b3ea/attachment.html>

From schroesd at adelphia.net  Sun Feb  1 18:20:33 2004
From: schroesd at adelphia.net (Steven Schroeder)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:20:33 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
References: <180.254e13ef.2d4ee088@cs.com>
Message-ID: <001401c3e919$fe0a06b0$760e4044@STEVECOMPUTER>

I think I'm going to write a poem on Earl Campbell...
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!


  In a message dated 2/1/2004 4:41:03 PM Central Standard Time, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: 


    In a message dated 2/1/2004 5:31:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:


      I hope you've got a second six-pack for the game! 


    I resemble that remark
      
    JL


  I don't have the time to write a sonnet, but I offer the following first lines for anyone who's not watching the game.

  The expense of tickets is a dirty shame

  Shall I compare thee to a fumbled punt?

  When on fourth down and thirty-some to go

  Joe Namath's knees were nothing like the sun

  Boomer and Deion make a lovely pair

  Now Gibbs is back can Redskins overcome

  Well, back to the tube.  I may be old, but I'll always be younger than Steven Tyler. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/fadbe5d9/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 19:00:52 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 19:00:52 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <149.215ae20e.2d4eed34@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 6:09:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
schroesd at adelphia.net writes:
I think I'm going to write a poem on Earl Campbell...
But gentle. Gentle. He looks pretty wobbly.

JL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/f048074b/attachment.html>

From schloss at mail.com  Sun Feb  1 19:09:38 2004
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:09:38 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Print
References: <200402011701.i11H12bk012647@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100303bc427359bb78@[204.215.201.15]>
Message-ID: <013301c3e920$d930dfb0$0300a8c0@Schloss>

Corelis Fits The News He Wants To PrintI look forward to Richard's next
expedition into actualities, or (as we say in Britain) facts.

<snip>
Since when have the facts impeded the RadLibs (from Prof. Gudding to Vincent
and now Corelis) from concocting news to slander President Bush if
actualities will not admit their perjuries in the court of public inquiry.
(Richard Dillon 1/2/04)
<snip>

<snip>
Report: U.S. Finds Missiles with Chemical Weapons (Richard Dillon 7/4/04,
under the modest and carefully worded heading 'WMDs Verfied in Iraq. UN
Blixites confuted, red faced!')
<snip>

CW

__________________________________________

'You know perfectly well I've never enjoyed having a
good time' (John Cage's mother)




From schloss at mail.com  Sun Feb  1 19:13:13 2004
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:13:13 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Correction
Message-ID: <014401c3e921$58f0bb30$0300a8c0@Schloss>

Apologies. My post should have read:

I look forward to Richard's next expedition into actualities, or (as we say
in Britain) facts.

<snip>
Since when have the facts impeded the RadLibs (from Prof. Gudding to Vincent
and now Corelis) from concocting news to slander President Bush if
actualities will not admit their perjuries in the court of public inquiry.
(Richard Dillon 1/2/04)
<snip>

<snip>
Report: U.S. Finds Missiles with Chemical Weapons (Richard Dillon 7/4/04,
under the modest and carefully worded heading 'WMDs Verfied in Iraq. UN
Blixites confuted, red faced!')
<snip>

But I'll say no more on this.

CW

__________________________________________

'You know perfectly well I've never enjoyed having a
good time' (John Cage's mother)




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb  1 20:01:50 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:01:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against the poets
In-Reply-To: <BAY7-F66FxDer9yBNGH000102fe@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC42FD9E.6675%grahamd@ripon.edu>

> Many of you on this list are academics.  Come on, be honest:  haven't you
> ever, even just once, while you were chalking an exegesis of "Dover Beach"
> on the blackboard, had the urge to turn to the class and say, "Man, this is
> boring.  I mean, what are we reading this shit for?"
> 

Well, with the exception of Henry James, nothing I normally teach is as
boring as faculty meetings, but yes, you have a point.

I'd simply add:  is there any job in which you don't sometimes find yourself
wondering "what am I doing *this* for?"


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 20:24:39 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:24:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Against the poets
Message-ID: <15a.2ca81a69.2d4f00d7@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/1/2004 7:59:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

I'd simply add:  is there any job in which you don't sometimes find yourself
wondering "what am I doing *this* for?"
Well . . . there was that six months in the late 70s, spent teaching sailing 
at a Club Med in Martinique. Weren't no Sea of Faith, but the tide was always 
full, the moon lay fair, and for six months, life inself looked from every 
angle glimmering and vast.

JL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/82741a61/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Feb  1 20:42:21 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:42:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Go Pats!
Message-ID: <c0.431ddde.2d4f04fd@cs.com>

Well, that was certainly an interesting finale to a halftime show!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040201/640c0129/attachment.html>

From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Feb  2 07:34:42 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:34:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog: Countdown to 100K
Message-ID: <000001c3e988$f2adb400$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

------------------------------
There will be a prize 
for the 100,000th visitor 
to Silliman's Blog
sometime this week.
------------------------------

RECENT TOPICS:

Brian Kim Stephens: 
post-avant jai-lai on a field of quietude

Counting down to 100K

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Ray Bianchi on Chicago

Ken James on the structure of cinema

Curtis Faville on Frank Lloyd Wright

Experience & expectation,
novelty & structure (in poetry, cinema, life.)

My visit to Chicago

Coming to terms with elders:
Ezra Pound's fascist cantos &
Michael Rothenberg channeling Philip Whalen

Ron Silliman forthcoming events

Poetry & community -
Tucson's Lisa Cooper

Kaia Sand -
Choosing between rough edges & smooth ones

Jules Boykoff -
A political poetry of linked verse

Heather Nagamai's "The Agenda" -
Rube Goldberg Objectivism & the furious stasis
of local government

An intro to Antennae

Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award:
Mike Snider

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Feb  2 10:48:40 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:48:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm a prophet!
In-Reply-To: <BAY7-F84OOWydC6CsYf000632d5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC43CD78.5F57%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

The federal government is currently paying me NOT to publish any more poems
in order to keep prices high.

Paul Lake



on 1/31/04 12:25 PM, Jon Corelis at joncpoetics at hotmail.com wrote:

> I sent this to another poetry list on April 1, 2003:
> 
> 
> FEDERAL POETRY SUBSIDIES PROPOSED
> 
> Washington, D. C. (CNS) -
> 
> In a surprise move, the Bush Administration has announced that it will
> propose legislation in Congress to subsidize the production of verse by
> American poets.
> 
> The program, which will be modeled on the longstanding federal agricultural
> price support program, will be designed to ensure a market at a basic price
> support level for the nation's poetry output.
> 
> According to administration spokeswoman April Narr, a goal of the subsidies
> will be to ensure the continuing production of particular types of verse for
> which the market is currently weak.  "For instance," she said at a news
> conference this morning, "not too many people write sonnets or heroic
> couplets any more, so those types of verse would be eligible for special
> price supports."
> 
> Narr also said in response to questions that although the details have yet
> to be worked out, subject matter may also be taken into account to determine
> the price support levels of different types of poems.  "There are plenty
> poems being written about having an affair or traveling in Europe or
> watching your child grow up," she said, "so that sort of poetry probably
> needs less subsidy.  But poems about junk yards or shaving cream or peeling
> an orange are more rare and may be deserving of more price support."
> 
> When questioned as to whether the public will accept a government program
> which channels taxpayers' dollars to poets, Narr replied, "It's really not
> such an unusual idea when you think of it.  After all, if the federal
> government can pay farmers to produce soybeans, why can't it pay poets to
> produce sonnets?"
> 
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> Jon Corelis        joncpoetics at hotmail.com
> http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ? optimizes dial-up to the max!
>  http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 13:27:25 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:27:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] I'm a prophet!
References: <BC43CD78.5F57%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <401E968D.24A2E1D7@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> The federal government is currently paying me NOT to publish any more poems
> in order to keep prices high.
> 

Harrumph.  I'm having mine submitted from an offshore address AND from
Singapore and Mexico in order to capitalize on trade agreements.  No
whining from USA-based minor poets, please.

- Jim


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Feb  2 13:47:50 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 12:47:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
Message-ID: <BC43F776.5F5B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

My new essay "Poetry in the Mother Tongue" has just gone up on the website
of Contemporary Poetry Review. Women poets may find the essay of particular
interest. In it, I challenge a number of postmodern assumptions about the
phallic nature of language, posing instead the idea that the organ informing
poetic language is the mother tongue. Here's the link.

Paul Lake


http://www.cprw.com/Lake/tongue.htm

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 14:13:46 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 12:13:46 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
References: <BC43F776.5F5B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <401EA16A.1C61CDD8@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> My new essay "Poetry in the Mother Tongue" has just gone up on the website
> of Contemporary Poetry Review. Women poets may find the essay of particular
> interest. In it, I challenge a number of postmodern assumptions about the
> phallic nature of language, posing instead the idea that the organ informing
> poetic language is the mother tongue. 

Gad!  People will use sex to sell anything!

- Jim


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Feb  2 14:44:20 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:44:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <401EA16A.1C61CDD8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BC4404B4.5F5F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/2/04 1:13 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
>> 
>> My new essay "Poetry in the Mother Tongue" has just gone up on the website
>> of Contemporary Poetry Review. Women poets may find the essay of particular
>> interest. In it, I challenge a number of postmodern assumptions about the
>> phallic nature of language, posing instead the idea that the organ informing
>> poetic language is the mother tongue.
> 
> Gad!  People will use sex to sell anything!
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Sell? Aren't you the optimist. When did anything having to do with poetry
ever SELL?

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From elemenope at icubed.com  Mon Feb  2 03:07:51 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:07:51 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Walker's Version:  Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Print
Message-ID: <a05100302bc43b139485c@[204.215.201.75]>

(Excuse the length of this post. I have reduced the font size in my 
quoted articles, if that would help.  Thank you.)

Mr. Walker, why don't you explain to us just how the BBC went wrong 
in its attack on Tony Blair?  Or, do you see the verdict as being 
rigged?

/sting/

Saddam's terrorist training center for airline hijacking (Below my 
rant.).  Go to link to see map of actual location.  Remember the 
immortal poem of that great RadLib YankHater D. Clark on 9/11/01:

>>At 05:00 PM +0800 2/1/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>>>There are those who ride with the President, The Lone Star Ranger 
>>>Poets, and those who stand on the long curving ridge line, the 
>>>opposition.
>>>
>>>At one end of this ridge are the RadLibs (George Soros, their 
>>>billionaire leader), including poets, people like Michael Collier 
>>>or Patti Smith or Harold Pinter or from Jolly Old Britland:
>>
>>>
>>>>At 04:28 PM +0100 9/11/01, Douglas Clark wrote:
>>>>>Very sorry about it. There is nothing else on the TV here. But
>>>>>I am puzzled why Osman didnt go for the White House. Perhaps
>>>>>it is too small a target and the British were there first.
>>>But Osman has been brilliant. Very sad for the deaths.
>>
>>and the ridge snakes through Jesse Jackson and The Deaniacs to the 
>>other side of the horizon where eyes blazing is Saddam and Osama or 
>>the Burning Man who was "Osman."
>
>


[NOTE: The Clintoons have changed sides and now are pro-War RadLibs!]


>At 11:26 AM +0800 3/13/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>>http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm



Salman Pak / Al Salman
References

*	Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the 
British Government" September 24, 2002
*	Information on Iraq's Biological Warfare Program 12 November 1993
*	Major Sites Associated With Iraq's Past WMD Programs UNSCOM 3 
December 1997


------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret 
terrorist training facility at Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and 
non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, 
planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.

The Salman Pak biological warfare facility was located on a peninsula 
caused by a bend in the Tigris river, approximately five kilometers 
(km) from the arch located in the town of Salman Pak. The facility 
area comprised more than 20 square km, and might have been known as a 
farmers (or agricultural) experimentation center. The peninsula was 
fenced off and patrolled by a large guard force. Immediately inside 
and to the east of the fence line were two opulent villas: the larger 
built for Iraqi president Saddam Hussein and the other for his 
half-brother, Barazan al-Tikriti. A main paved road ran through the 
center of the Salman Pak facility/peninsula. [GulfLINK]

Plans were made in the mid-1980's to develop the Salman Pak site into 
a secure biological warfare research facility. Dr Rihab Taha, head of 
a small biological weapons research team, continued to work with her 
team at al-Muthanna until 1987 when it moved to Salman Pak, which was 
under the control of the Directorate of General Intelligence.

Located at the facility are several buildings. The probable main 
research building at the site is a modern building, composed of 
twenty four rooms, housing a major BW research facility. Using 
current technology the research area alone had sufficient floor space 
to accommodate several continuous-flow or batch fermenters that could 
produce daily sufficient anthrax bacteria to lethally assault 
hundreds of square kilometers. Adjacent to the research building is a 
storage area which contains four munitions type storage bunkers with 
lightning arrestors. Two of these bunkers have facilities for storage 
of temperature sensitive biological material. Approximately a mile 
down the road from the research area is a complex US intelligence 
believed to be an engineering area. One building in this complex was 
thought to contain a fermentation pilot plant capable of scale up 
production of BW agents. A construction project comprising several 
buildings was begun in early 1989 adjacent to the engineering area, 
and was near completion in 1990. This new complex was assessed as a 
pharmaceutical production plant. As such, this facility would have an 
extensive capability for biological agent production. [GulfLINK]

Salman Pak, located 30-40 km SE of Baghdad, engaged in laboratory 
scale research on Anthrax, Botulinum toxin, Clostridium, perfringens 
(gas gangrene), mycotoxins, aflatoxins, and Ricin. Researchers at 
this site carried out toxicity evaluations of these agents and 
examined their growth characteristics and survivability.

Equipment-moving trucks and refrigerated trucks were observed at the 
Salman Pak BW facility prior to the onset of bombing, suggesting that 
Iraq was moving equipment or material into or out of the facility. 
Information obtained after the conflict revealed that Iraq had moved 
BW agent production equipment from Salman Pak to the Al Hakam suspect 
BW facility.

The Qadisiya State Establishment [aka Al-Qadsia], involved in the 
program to produce Al Hussein class missiles, is apparently located 
nearby, along with the Al-Yarmouk facility which according to some 
reports was associated with the chemical munitions program [and which 
other reports place at Yusufiyah.

Iraq told UN inspectors that Salman Pak was an anti-terror training 
camp for Iraqi special forces. However, two defectors from Iraqi 
intelligence stated that they had worked for several years at the 
secret Iraqi government camp, which had trained Islamic terrorists in 
rotations of five or six months since 1995. Training activities 
including simulated hijackings carried out in an airplane fuselage 
[said to be a Boeing 707] at the camp. The camp is divided into 
distinct sections. On one side of the camp young, Iraqis who were 
members of Fedayeen Saddam are trained in espionage, assassination 
techniques and sabotage. The Islamic militants trained on the other 
side of the camp, in an area separated by a small lake, trees and 
barbed wire. The militants reportedly spent time training, usually in 
groups of five or six, around the fuselage of the airplane. There 
were rarely more than 40 or 50 Islamic radicals in the camp at one 
time.

>http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/salman_pak.htm
>Maintained by John Pike
>Last Modified: December 14, 2002 - 14:05
Copyright ? 2000-2003 GlobalSecurity.org All Rights Reserve

What world does Mr. Walker inhabit?  Rockets from earlier wars were 
discovered. Such weapons can kill populations at one stroke even if 
people like Mr. Walker argue that they don't meet certain 
quantifiable levels of mass death according to Consumer Reports. 
Okay, they were buried like the MIGS and were not good to go.  Okay, 
these rockets were inherited from Gulf War I and not newly minted 
with state of art circuitry.

But, Saddam's evil scientists were working round the clock to perfect 
all manner of biobombs.  Nuclear weapon components were buried in 
gardens throughout the country for a future use.  We still don't know 
what else is buried there or was secreted to Syria.  Sorry, Saddam 
only thought he had massive arsenals ready at hand and didn't know 
that he was bluffing the world. His commanders in the field believed 
such WMDs were there for use because chemical weapon uniforms were 
issued to elite troops in units thought to possess them.  Everybody 
was lying to everybody else in paranoid Iraq.  In such a crazy, 
unstable environment, dangers increase unless the arguer believes 
that the dangers emanate from governments that will take action 
preemptively instead of reacting to International Terrorism.

All intelligence services including the UN maintained Iraq had such 
weapons.  Even Saddam believed they were actualities ready to his 
command!  Come with me now to Saddam's throne room and the great 
mural he enjoyed hanging opposite his throne across the marble 
expanses:

>At 12:34 AM +0800 4/13/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>>Robert Fisk: I sat on Saddam's throne and surveyed the dark chamber 
>>where terror was dispensed
>>
>>'Fascist is the word that springs to mind, but fascism with Don 
>>Corleone thrown in'
>>
>>12 April 2003
>>
>>
>>The seat is covered in blue velvet and is soft, comfortable in an 
>>upright, sensible sort of way, with big gold armrests upon which 
>>his hands - for Saddam Hussein was obsessed with his hands - could 
>>rest, and with no door behind it through which assassins could 
>>enter.
>>
>>There is no footstool, but the sofas and seats around the vast 
>>internal conference chamber of President Saddam's Jumhuriyah Palace 
>>placed every official on a slightly lower level than the Caliph 
>>himself.
>>
>>Did I sit on President Saddam's throne? Of course I did. There is 
>>something dark in all our souls that demands an understanding of 
>>evil rather than good, because, I suppose, we are more fascinated 
>>by the machinery of cruelty and power than we are by angels.
>>
>>So I sat on the blue throne and put my hands over the golden 
>>armrests and surveyed the darkened chamber in which men of great 
>>power sat in terror of the man who used to sit where I was now. 
>>Behind the throne is a vast canvas of the Al-Aqsa mosque in 
>>Jerusalem - minus the Jewish settlements, of course - so the third 
>>holiest city of Islam hung above the head of the mightiest of Iraqi 
>>warriors.
>>
>>Opposite the President's chair was a different work of Baathist 
>>art. The torchlight that illuminated the canvas produced a gasp of 
>>astonishment and horrible clarity. It depicted huge missiles, 
>>flames burning at their tails, soaring towards a cloud-fringed, 
>>sinister heaven, each rocket wreathed in an Iraqi flag and the 
>>words "God is Great".
>>
>>The godly and the ungodly faced each other in this central edifice 
>>of Baathist power. The American 3rd Infantry Division, which is 
>>camped in the marble halls and the servants' bedrooms, have kept 
>>the looters at bay, though I found some of them thieving 
>>televisions and computers in the smaller villas of the palace 
>>grounds, because, they say, General Tommy Franks will probably set 
>>up his proconsulship here. If the Americans can create a compliant 
>>government, Ahmed Chalabi and his chums may be running the country 
>>from this pseudo-Sumerian complex within a few months.
>>
>>They will find Saddam Hussein's swimming pool intact, with his vast 
>>palm groves and rose gardens. Indeed - how often are brutal men 
>>surrounded by beauty - the scent of roses drifts even now through 
>>the marble halls and chambers and underground corridors of the 
>>Jumhuriyah Palace. There are peonies and nasturtiums and the roses 
>>are red and pink and white and crimson and covered in white 
>>butterflies, and water, though the 3rd Infantry Division has not 
>>yet found the pumps, gurgles from taps into the flower beds.
>>
>>In the pool-side washing room, piles of books have been tied up for 
>>removal - Iraqi poetry and, would you believe, volumes of Islamic 
>>jurisprudence - while exercise machines remain to keep the second 
>>Salahuddin in moderate physical shape.
>>
>>His 68th birthday will fall - if he is alive - in just over a week. 
>>Over the door are the initials "S H". Walking the miles of 
>>corridors, after the two-mile road leading to the palace, through 
>>more fields of roses and palms, piles of spent ammunition and the 
>>smell of something awful and dead beyond the flower beds, one is 
>>struck by the obsessive mixture of glory and banality.
>>
>>The 15ft chandeliers inspire awe. But the solid gold bathroom 
>>fittings, a solid gold loo-roll holder, for God's sake, and a solid 
>>gold loo handle, create a kind of cultural aggression. If one was 
>>supposed to be intimidated by President Saddam's power, what was 
>>one to make of the narrow, unpolished marble staircases or the 
>>great marble walls of the ante-chamber with their gold-leaf 
>>ceilings, walls into which were cut quotations from the 
>>interminably dull speeches and thoughts of "His Excellency 
>>President Saddam Hussein". Fascist is the word that springs to 
>>mind, but fascism with a bit of Don Corleone thrown in.
>>
>>In that great conference room would sit the attendant lords, the 
>>senior masters of the Baath party, the security apparatchiks upon 
>>which the regime depended, desperately attempting to keep awake as 
>>their leader embarked on his four-hour explanations of the state of 
>>the world and of Iraq's place in it. As he talked of Zionism, they 
>>could admire the Al-Aqsa mosque. When he became angry, they could 
>>glance at the fiery missiles streaking towards that glowering sky 
>>with the clouds hanging oppressively low in the heavens.
>>
>>His words are even cut into the stonework of the outer palace walls 
>>where four 20ft tall busts of the great warrior Hamurabi, in 
>>medieval helmet and neck-covering, stare at each other across the 
>>courtyard. Hamurabi, however, has a moustache and, amazing to 
>>perceive, bears an uncommon likeness to one Saddam Hussein. What on 
>>earth, one wondered, would General Franks make of this? Can the 
>>government of the "New Iraq" really hold its cabinet meetings here 
>>while these four monsters stare at their American-supplied Mercedes?
>>
>>The gold leaf, the marble, the chandeliers, the sheer height and 
>>depth of the chambers take the breath away. In one hall, a 
>>Pantheon-like dome soars golden above the walls and when I shouted 
>>"Saddam", I listened to the repeated echo of "Saddam" for almost a 
>>minute. And I have an absolute conviction that President Saddam did 
>>just that. If he could instruct his masons to carve his name upon 
>>the walls, surely he wanted to hear it repeated in the heights of 
>>his palace.
>>
>>Outside stand the American Abrams tanks of the 3rd Infantry, their 
>>names expressing the banality and power of another nation. On their 
>>barrels the crews have nicknamed their armoured behemoths. Atomic 
>>Dog. Annihilator. Arsonist. Anthrax. Anguish. Agamemnon. Saddam 
>>would have approved.
>>	 
>>
>>12 April 2003 00:39


/sting/

Why is Mr. Walker (Professor Gudding, Vincent, Corelis and others who 
use this list for behind the hand cackles against the administration) 
intent on defending the interests of those who oppose Tony Blair and 
George Bush?  Why is Mr. Walker (et al) marching to the tune of 
George Soros? (Is such an answer to be found in the names of the 
Abrams tanks the correspondent, Fisk, derides?)

Answer, explain, don't just deride and jeer and insinuate.  Saddam 
had used WMDs against his own people, Mr. Walker.  I really, for one, 
don't care what anyone else thinks.  I, a Lone Star Ranger, would 
have gone and taken him out myself by means of Remote Viewing and 
Telekinetic weaponry ("Chandelier Plummets To Kill Insane Tyrant!") 
had I the ability to do so.

RD

I find it amusing how English correspondents frequently try to find a 
vocabulary item to set up as a debating point that they then knock 
over as a straw dog pursuant to attacking on the bigger points.  I 
also appreciate the "clean" way English debators operate.  It is so 
limpid and cool.  Always ironic and smart.  I want to be more that 
way and will emulate Mr. Walker regarding the actualities versus the 
mass delusions in the future.  Eliot did.





>
>
>Message: 4
>From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com>
>To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Print
>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:09:38 -0000
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Corelis Fits The News He Wants To PrintI look forward to Richard's next
>expedition into actualities, or (as we say in Britain) facts.
>
><snip>
>Since when have the facts impeded the RadLibs (from Prof. Gudding to Vincent
>and now Corelis) from concocting news to slander President Bush if
>actualities will not admit their perjuries in the court of public inquiry.
>(Richard Dillon 1/2/04)
><snip>
>
><snip>
>Report: U.S. Finds Missiles with Chemical Weapons (Richard Dillon 7/4/04,
>under the modest and carefully worded heading 'WMDs Verfied in Iraq. UN
>Blixites confuted, red faced!')
><snip>
>
>CW
>
>__________________________________________
>
>'You know perfectly well I've never enjoyed having a
>good time' (John Cage's mother)
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
>From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com>
>To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:13:13 -0000
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Correction
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Apologies. My post should have read:
>
>I look forward to Richard's next expedition into actualities, or (as we say
>in Britain) facts.
>
><snip>
>Since when have the facts impeded the RadLibs (from Prof. Gudding to Vincent
>and now Corelis) from concocting news to slander President Bush if
>actualities will not admit their perjuries in the court of public inquiry.
>(Richard Dillon 1/2/04)
><snip>
>
><snip>
>Report: U.S. Finds Missiles with Chemical Weapons (Richard Dillon 7/4/04,
>under the modest and carefully worded heading 'WMDs Verfied in Iraq. UN
>Blixites confuted, red faced!')
><snip>
>
>But I'll say no more on this.
>
>CW
>
>__________________________________________
>
>'You know perfectly well I've never enjoyed having a
>good time' (John Cage's mother)
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040202/719f73e6/attachment.html>

From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Feb  2 16:21:24 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:21:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Issue 5 of FREE VERSE is now published.
Message-ID: <6b.21c2a01c.2d501954@aol.com>

Issue 5 of FREE VERSE is now published.

Poetry: Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Jane Miller, Dan Beachy-Quick, Elisabeth 
Hamilton, Pattie McCarthy, Catherine Daly, Brian Henry, Thorpe Moeckel, Richard 
Harris, Iain Britton, Barbara Maloutas.

Special Feature: French Poetry in Translation

Interview: Jon Thompson with Cole Swensen

Review: Jonathan Minton on Dan Beachy-Quick

And a new ?Recent and Notable? section of mini-reviews.
--  
Jon Thompson, Editor
Free Verse: A Journal of Contemporary Poetry & Poetics 
http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/
Department of English
North Carolina State University
Raleigh, NC 27695-8105
Fax: 919.515.1836
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040202/c55bcadc/attachment.html>

From schloss at mail.com  Mon Feb  2 20:35:48 2004
From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 01:35:48 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Walker's Version:  Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Print
References: <a05100302bc43b139485c@[204.215.201.75]>
Message-ID: <016701c3e9f6$0d5e8230$0300a8c0@Schloss>

Walker's Version: Corelis Fits The News He Wants To PRichard:

<snip>
Mr. Walker, why don't you explain to us just how the BBC went wrong in its
attack on Tony Blair?
<snip>

Because I'm under a self denying ordinance, a very British concept: we too
had a Civil War. As I said in my last, 'I'll say no more on this.' Instead I
shall jouk away from your question as umembarrassed as you were in avoiding
what I'd implied.

<snip>
I find it amusing how English correspondents frequently try to find a
vocabulary item to set up as a debating point that they then knock over as a
straw dog pursuant to attacking on the bigger points.
<snip>

Scots correspondents too.

'Actuality' ('actualit?') sound risible to the British because of Alan
Clarke; rather as 'embonpoint' sounds ridiculous because of Andrew Neil. It
was Clarke's view, famously, that people less extreme than he had 'bought
their own furniture' and could be objected to on that ground alone.

But I enjoyed the chandelier.

CW

__________________________________________

'You know perfectly well I've never enjoyed having a
good time' (John Cage's mother)




From trbell at comcast.net  Mon Feb  2 17:57:17 2004
From: trbell at comcast.net (tom bell)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:57:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] now appearing
Message-ID: <004201c3e9df$eaaa1620$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net>

Now appearing on August Highland's minimag
http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/health/index.html is my new column on Write
for the Health of It.  Submissions welcomed.

tom bell

'^-_'^-_'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'""-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Visiting poet at The VA TENNESSEE VALLEY HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ALVIN C. YORK
CAMPUS

Columnist for MAG http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/

Some not right for Hallmark poetry available through geezer.com
http://www.geezer.com/vendor.html?vendorID=2203&psid=dceaec145a83fbd666061e3
9c05fdadd

Section editor for PsyBC www.psybc.com

http://www.metaphormetonym.com/

Write for the Health of It course at
http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/seminar
http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/overview/37900

not yet a crazy old man
hard but not yet hardening of the
art



From elemenope at icubed.com  Mon Feb  2 13:01:57 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 02:01:57 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Walker Correction
In-Reply-To: <200402021701.i12H12bk032578@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200402021701.i12H12bk032578@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100301bc443a7e5e9e@[204.215.200.44]>

Notice how Mr. Walker very adroitly plays three card monte with the 
question at hand.  Return to Corelis' original jibe which had to do 
with the supposed destruction of the Baghdad Museum.  Mr. Walker 
rushes to his co-traveller's aid by attacking me regarding an 
entirely different issue: WMDs.

This is a good example of how the RadLibs fight much like other 
enemies of the Lone Star Rangers on the ridge line.  If one goes 
down, another soon replaces him.  If one of their arguments is shot 
out, they immediatly launch another accusatory mortar round from 
another position, or morph into another leaping warrior hooting, 
hollering or, in this case, speaking the King's English.

Oh, well, it's war all the time and England actually actually ruled 
the world. They are very self confident when they decide to slap 
people around.  I agree: it's sound martial strategy to mock the way 
another person talks before you move in to kill their thought. 
Notice how well things are going in South Iraq.

Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
  And we are here as on a darkling plain
  Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
  Where ignorant armies clash by night.

RD






At 12:01 PM -0500 2/2/04, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>Message: 5
>From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com>
>To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:13:13 -0000
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Correction
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Apologies. My post should have read:
>
>I look forward to Richard's next expedition into actualities, or (as we say
in Britain) facts.

Wyatt  - To Lucasta, Going...


  	Dover Beach
Mathew Arnold

  The sea is calm to-night.
  The tide is full, the moon lies fair
  Upon the straits; -on the French coast the light
  Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand,
  Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.
  Come to the window, sweet is the night air!
  Only, from the long line of spray
  Where the sea meets the moon-blanch'd land,
  Listen! you hear the grating roar
  Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
  At their return, up the high strand,
  Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
  With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
  The eternal note of sadness in.

  Sophocles long ago
  Heard it on the Aegean, and it brought
  Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow
  Of human misery; we
  Find also in the sound a thought,
  Hearing it by this distant northern sea.

  The Sea of Faith
  Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
  Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd.
  But now I only hear
  Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
  Retreating, to the breath
  Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
  And naked shingles of the world.

  Ah, love, let us be true
  To one another! for the world, which seems
  To lie before us like a land of dreams,
  So various, so beautiful, so new,
  Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,

  Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
  And we are here as on a darkling plain
  Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
  Where ignorant armies clash by night.

>




-- 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040203/5c556522/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 11:21:06 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:21:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Olga Cabral, "Race to Mars"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKECMIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Race to Mars

Red Planet are you ready for us?
Through four billion years you have been sleeping
now we come with Earth's gifts
we will make you an offer you can't refuse

Ah what designs we have in store for you
nothing less that CREATION itself
your future mapped out century after century
your fate is sealed
we will step upon your primeval sands as gods
gods in space suits
and plant the flags of our quarreling nations
amind your raging red dust storms
on the fields of Mars the banners of CIVILIZATION will fly
though your whirlwinds tear at them furiously
in the end we will conquer

AWAKE AWAKE you are soon to be afforded colonial status
your stock sold on Earth's stock exchanges
your lurid rocks brought to bear the first LICHENS
as in our own Arctic tundras
but our tundras are up for grabs
though they brim with abundant creation we must destroy
                            what we have
because we need OIL
OIL for our bomb factories our heated swimming pools

While we nurse fragile life into existence on your deathbound
                           planet
your rust-red escarpments of terrifying nakedness
we will be killing off goodly numbers of Earth's own living
                           species
magnificent triumphs of nature's laboratories
not to speak of our human species we have become so good at it

Beware the grid the imprint of the technological foot
the astronaut's first booted step as he lands from his space ship
we come with our visions we have written your fate in the stars:
OFFICE BUILDINGS! NUCLEAR REACTIONS! SILICON VALLEYS!!!
sterile fruits of a warped civilization

Red Planet are you ready for us?
We are staking our claim.

--Olga Cabral

fr. *Voice/Over: Selected Poems*
[Albuquerque, NM: West End Press, 1993]


Hal           

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From elemenope at icubed.com  Tue Feb  3 01:31:31 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:31:31 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Walker's Version: Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Print
In-Reply-To: <200402031701.i13H12bk014288@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200402031701.i13H12bk014288@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc44ea334ca6@[204.215.200.44]>

Actually, Christopher Walker is right, actually.  Suddenly, there 
disgorges from my innermost memory the hologram of an Englishman 
pronounciating the word, "Actually."  I am confounded.  "Actually, 
Dillon, you are more right than you know, which makes you naive."  As 
I have confided to Scotland, any Britland accent is heard by 
wranglers who live in Bush Country to confer upon its bearer the 
appellation, "Genius!"

(This goes for the use of dictionaries, also, I -ahem- admit.  Okay, 
you got me.   What you want me to do?  Shake my tiny proud risible 
fist at you?  Now that we've got Saddam I can't even shake it at him. 
So what am I gonna do?  [I am just a student at school, and this is 
my school.])

RD

Message: 2
From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 01:35:48 -0000


Walker's Version: Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Richard:

<snip>
Mr. Walker, why don't you explain to us just how the BBC went wrong in its
attack on Tony Blair?
<snip>

Because I'm under a self denying ordinance, a very British concept: we too
had a Civil War. As I said in my last, 'I'll say no more on this.' Instead I
shall jouk away from your question as umembarrassed as you were in avoiding
what I'd implied.

<snip>
I find it amusing how English correspondents frequently try to find a
vocabulary item to set up as a debating point that they then knock over as a
straw dog pursuant to attacking on the bigger points.
<snip>

Scots correspondents too.

'Actuality' ('actualit?') sound risible to the British because of Alan
Clarke; rather as 'embonpoint' sounds ridiculous because of Andrew Neil. It
was Clarke's view, famously, that people less extreme than he had 'bought
their own furniture' and could be objected to on that ground alone.

But I enjoyed the chandelier.

CW









>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Issue 5 of FREE VERSE is now published. (Cadaly at aol.com)
>    2. Re: Walker's Version:  Corelis Fits The News He Wants To Print 
>(Christopher Walker)
>    3. now appearing (tom bell)
>    4. Walker Correction (ELEMENOPE Productions)
>    5. Poems by others:  Olga Cabral, "Race to Mars" (Halvard Johnson)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>From: Cadaly at aol.com
>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:21:24 EST
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Issue 5 of FREE VERSE is now published.
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>-------------------------------1075756884
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Issue 5 of FREE VERSE is now published.
>
>Poetry: Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Jane Miller, Dan Beachy-Quick, Elisabeth=20
>Hamilton, Pattie McCarthy, Catherine Daly, Brian Henry, Thorpe Moeckel, Rich=
>ard=20
>Harris, Iain Britton, Barbara Maloutas.
>
>Special Feature: French Poetry in Translation
>
>Interview: Jon Thompson with Cole Swensen
>
>Review: Jonathan Minton on Dan Beachy-Quick
>
>And a new =B3Recent and Notable=B2 section of mini-reviews.
>-- =20
>Jon Thompson, Editor
>Free Verse: A Journal of Contemporary Poetry & Poetics=20
>http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/
>Department of English
>North Carolina State University
>Raleigh, NC 27695-8105
>Fax: 919.515.1836
>
>-------------------------------1075756884
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><HEAD>
><META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
>t=3Dutf-8">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
><BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
>f">
><DIV>Issue 5 of FREE VERSE is now published.</DIV>
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV>Poetry: Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Jane Miller, Dan Beachy-Quick, Elisabeth=
>  Hamilton, Pattie McCarthy, Catherine Daly, Brian Henry, Thorpe Moeckel, Ric=
>hard Harris, Iain Britton, Barbara Maloutas.</DIV>
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV>Special Feature: French Poetry in Translation</DIV>
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV>Interview: Jon Thompson with Cole Swensen</DIV>
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV>Review: Jonathan Minton on Dan Beachy-Quick</DIV>
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV>And a new =B3Recent and Notable=B2 section of mini-reviews.<BR>--&nbsp;=
>  <BR>Jon Thompson, Editor<BR>Free Verse: A Journal of Contemporary Poetry &a=
>mp; Poetics <A href=3D"http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/">http://engl=
>ish.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/</A><BR>Department of English<BR>North Carolina=
>  State University<BR>Raleigh, NC 27695-8105<BR>Fax: 919.515.1836<BR></DIV></=
>BODY></HTML>
>
>-------------------------------1075756884--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Walker's Version:  Corelis Fits The News 
>He Wants To Print
>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 01:35:48 -0000
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Walker's Version: Corelis Fits The News He Wants To PRichard:
>
><snip>
>Mr. Walker, why don't you explain to us just how the BBC went wrong in its
>attack on Tony Blair?
><snip>
>
>Because I'm under a self denying ordinance, a very British concept: we too
>had a Civil War. As I said in my last, 'I'll say no more on this.' Instead I
>shall jouk away from your question as umembarrassed as you were in avoiding
>what I'd implied.
>
><snip>
>I find it amusing how English correspondents frequently try to find a
>vocabulary item to set up as a debating point that they then knock over as a
>straw dog pursuant to attacking on the bigger points.
><snip>
>
>Scots correspondents too.
>
>'Actuality' ('actualit?') sound risible to the British because of Alan
>Clarke; rather as 'embonpoint' sounds ridiculous because of Andrew Neil. It
>was Clarke's view, famously, that people less extreme than he had 'bought
>their own furniture' and could be objected to on that ground alone.
>
>But I enjoyed the chandelier.
>
>CW
>
>__________________________________________
>
>'You know perfectly well I've never enjoyed having a
>good time' (John Cage's mother)
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>From: "tom bell" <trbell at comcast.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>, <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>,
>    <POETRYETC at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>, "poetics" <POETICS at listserv.BUFFALO.EDU>
>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:57:17 -0600
>Subject: [New-Poetry] now appearing
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Now appearing on August Highland's minimag
>http://www.theminimag.com/jan04/health/index.html is my new column on Write
>for the Health of It.  Submissions welcomed.
>
>tom bell
>
>'^-_'^-_'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'""-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Visiting poet at The VA TENNESSEE VALLEY HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ALVIN C. YORK
>CAMPUS
>
>Columnist for MAG http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/
>
>Some not right for Hallmark poetry available through geezer.com
>http://www.geezer.com/vendor.html?vendorID=2203&psid=dceaec145a83fbd666061e3
>9c05fdadd
>
>Section editor for PsyBC www.psybc.com
>
>http://www.metaphormetonym.com/
>
>Write for the Health of It course at
>http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/seminar
>http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/overview/37900
>
>not yet a crazy old man
>hard but not yet hardening of the
>art
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 02:01:57 +0800
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>From: ELEMENOPE Productions <elemenope at icubed.com>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Walker Correction
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>--============_-1136377575==_ma============
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
>Notice how Mr. Walker very adroitly plays three card monte with the
>question at hand.  Return to Corelis' original jibe which had to do
>with the supposed destruction of the Baghdad Museum.  Mr. Walker
>rushes to his co-traveller's aid by attacking me regarding an
>entirely different issue: WMDs.
>
>This is a good example of how the RadLibs fight much like other
>enemies of the Lone Star Rangers on the ridge line.  If one goes
>down, another soon replaces him.  If one of their arguments is shot
>out, they immediatly launch another accusatory mortar round from
>another position, or morph into another leaping warrior hooting,
>hollering or, in this case, speaking the King's English.
>
>Oh, well, it's war all the time and England actually actually ruled
>the world. They are very self confident when they decide to slap
>people around.  I agree: it's sound martial strategy to mock the way
>another person talks before you move in to kill their thought.
>Notice how well things are going in South Iraq.
>
>Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
>   And we are here as on a darkling plain
>   Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
>   Where ignorant armies clash by night.
>
>RD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 12:01 PM -0500 2/2/04, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>>Message: 5
>>From: "Christopher Walker" <schloss at mail.com>
>>To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:13:13 -0000
>>Subject: [New-Poetry] Correction
>>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>>Apologies. My post should have read:
>>
>>I look forward to Richard's next expedition into actualities, or (as we say
>in Britain) facts.
>
>Wyatt  - To Lucasta, Going...
>
>
>  	Dover Beach
>Mathew Arnold
>
>   The sea is calm to-night.
>   The tide is full, the moon lies fair
>   Upon the straits; -on the French coast the light
>   Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand,
>   Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.
>   Come to the window, sweet is the night air!
>   Only, from the long line of spray
>   Where the sea meets the moon-blanch'd land,
>   Listen! you hear the grating roar
>   Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
>   At their return, up the high strand,
>   Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
>   With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
>   The eternal note of sadness in.
>
>   Sophocles long ago
>   Heard it on the Aegean, and it brought
>   Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow
>   Of human misery; we
>   Find also in the sound a thought,
>   Hearing it by this distant northern sea.
>
>   The Sea of Faith
>   Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
>   Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd.
>   But now I only hear
>   Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
>   Retreating, to the breath
>   Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
>   And naked shingles of the world.
>
>   Ah, love, let us be true
>   To one another! for the world, which seems
>   To lie before us like a land of dreams,
>   So various, so beautiful, so new,
>   Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
>
>   Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
>   And we are here as on a darkling plain
>   Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
>   Where ignorant armies clash by night.
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>--
>--============_-1136377575==_ma============
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
>
><!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
><html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
>blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
>  --></style><title>[New-Poetry] Walker Correction</title></head><body>
><div>Notice how Mr. Walker very adroitly plays three card monte with
>the question at hand.&nbsp; Return to Corelis' original jibe which had
>to do with the supposed destruction of the Baghdad Museum.&nbsp; Mr.
>Walker rushes to his co-traveller's aid by attacking me regarding an
>entirely different issue: WMDs.</div>
><div><br></div>
><div>This is a good example of how the RadLibs fight much like other
>enemies of the Lone Star Rangers on the ridge line.&nbsp; If one goes
>down, another soon replaces him.&nbsp; If one of their arguments is
>shot out, they immediatly launch another accusatory mortar round from
>another position, or morph into another leaping warrior hooting,
>hollering or, in this case, speaking the King's English.</div>
><div><br></div>
><div>Oh, well, it's war all the time and England actually actually
>ruled the world. They are very self confident when they decide to slap
>people around.&nbsp; I agree: it's sound martial strategy to mock the
>way another person talks before you move in to kill their thought.&nbsp;
>Notice how well things are going in South Iraq. </div>
><div><br></div>
><div><font face="Verdana" size="+2" color="#000000">Nor certitude, nor
>peace, nor help for pain;<br>
>&nbsp;And we are here as on a darkling plain<br>
>&nbsp;Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,</font></div>
><div><font face="Verdana" size="+2" color="#000000">&nbsp;Where
>ignorant armies clash by night.</font></div>
><div><br></div>
><div>RD</div>
><div><br></div>
><div><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
></x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
></x-tab></div>
><div><br></div>
><div><br></div>
><div><br></div>
><div><br></div>
><div>At 12:01 PM -0500 2/2/04, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>wrote:</div>
><blockquote type="cite" cite>Message: 5<br>
>From: &quot;Christopher Walker&quot; &lt;schloss at mail.com&gt;<br>
>To: &quot;New-Poetry&quot; &lt;new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu&gt;<br>
>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:13:13 -0000</blockquote>
><blockquote type="cite" cite>Subject: [New-Poetry] Correction<br>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<br>
><br>
>Apologies. My post should have read:<br>
><br>
>I look forward to Richard's next expedition into actualities, or (as
>we say</blockquote>
><div>in Britain) facts.</div>
><div><br></div>
><div><font face="Verdana" size="+1"
>color="#FFFFCC"><b
>>Wyatt&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;To&nbsp;Lucasta,&nbsp;Going...</b></font><font
>  face="Verdana" size="+3" color="#000000"><br>
><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab><br>
></font><font face="Arial" size="+5"
>color="#996633"><b>&nbsp;</b></font><font face="Verdana" size="+3"
>color="#000000"><br>
>&nbsp;<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </x-tab></font><font
>face="Verdana" size="+4" color="#000000"><b>Dover Beach</b><br>
></font><font face="Verdana" size="+3" color="#800000"><u>Mathew
>Arnold</u></font><font face="Verdana" size="+3" color="#993366"><br>
></font><font face="Verdana" size="+3" color="#000000"><br>
>&nbsp;</font><font face="Verdana" size="+2" color="#000000">The sea is
>calm to-night.<br>
>&nbsp;The tide is full, the moon lies fair<br>
>&nbsp;Upon the straits; -on the French coast the light<br>
>&nbsp;Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand,<br>
>&nbsp;Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.<br>
>&nbsp;Come to the window, sweet is the night air!<br>
>&nbsp;Only, from the long line of spray<br>
>&nbsp;Where the sea meets the moon-blanch'd land,<br>
>&nbsp;Listen! you hear the grating roar<br>
>&nbsp;Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,<br>
>&nbsp;At their return, up the high strand,<br>
>&nbsp;Begin, and cease, and then again begin,<br>
>&nbsp;With tremulous cadence slow, and bring<br>
>&nbsp;The eternal note of sadness in.<br>
><br>
>&nbsp;Sophocles long ago<br>
>&nbsp;Heard it on the Aegean, and it brought<br>
>&nbsp;Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow<br>
>&nbsp;Of human misery; we<br>
>&nbsp;Find also in the sound a thought,<br>
>&nbsp;Hearing it by this distant northern sea.<br>
><br>
>&nbsp;The Sea of Faith<br>
>&nbsp;Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore<br>
>&nbsp;Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd.<br>
>&nbsp;But now I only hear<br>
>&nbsp;Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,<br>
>&nbsp;Retreating, to the breath<br>
>&nbsp;Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear<br>
>&nbsp;And naked shingles of the world.<br>
><br>
>&nbsp;Ah, love, let us be true<br>
>&nbsp;To one another! for the world, which seems<br>
>&nbsp;To lie before us like a land of dreams,<br>
>&nbsp;So various, so beautiful, so new,<br>
>&nbsp;Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,</font><br>
><font face="Verdana" size="+2" color="#000000"></font></div>
><div><font face="Verdana" size="+2" color="#000000">&nbsp;Nor
>certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;<br>
>&nbsp;And we are here as on a darkling plain<br>
>&nbsp;Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,</font></div>
><div><font face="Verdana" size="+2" color="#000000">&nbsp;Where
>ignorant armies clash by night.</font> </div>
><div><br></div>
><blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
><div><br></div>
><div><br></div>
><div><br></div>
><div><br></div>
><x-sigsep><pre>--
></pre></x-sigsep>
></body>
></html>
>--============_-1136377575==_ma============--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:21:06 -0500
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Olga Cabral, "Race to Mars"
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>Race to Mars
>
>Red Planet are you ready for us?
>Through four billion years you have been sleeping
>now we come with Earth's gifts
>we will make you an offer you can't refuse
>
>Ah what designs we have in store for you
>nothing less that CREATION itself
>your future mapped out century after century
>your fate is sealed
>we will step upon your primeval sands as gods
>gods in space suits
>and plant the flags of our quarreling nations
>amind your raging red dust storms
>on the fields of Mars the banners of CIVILIZATION will fly
>though your whirlwinds tear at them furiously
>in the end we will conquer
>
>AWAKE AWAKE you are soon to be afforded colonial status
>your stock sold on Earth's stock exchanges
>your lurid rocks brought to bear the first LICHENS
>as in our own Arctic tundras
>but our tundras are up for grabs
>though they brim with abundant creation we must destroy
>                             what we have
>because we need OIL
>OIL for our bomb factories our heated swimming pools
>
>While we nurse fragile life into existence on your deathbound
>                            planet
>your rust-red escarpments of terrifying nakedness
>we will be killing off goodly numbers of Earth's own living
>                            species
>magnificent triumphs of nature's laboratories
>not to speak of our human species we have become so good at it
>
>Beware the grid the imprint of the technological foot
>the astronaut's first booted step as he lands from his space ship
>we come with our visions we have written your fate in the stars:
>OFFICE BUILDINGS! NUCLEAR REACTIONS! SILICON VALLEYS!!!
>sterile fruits of a warped civilization
>
>Red Planet are you ready for us?
>We are staking our claim.
>
>--Olga Cabral
>
>fr. *Voice/Over: Selected Poems*
>[Albuquerque, NM: West End Press, 1993]
>
>
>Hal          
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest


-- 



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb  3 15:25:04 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 15:25:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <BC43F776.5F5B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <401FBD50.32098.D41DFD@localhost>

Alas, no link.
M


On 2 Feb 2004 at 12:47, Paul Lake wrote:

> My new essay "Poetry in the Mother Tongue" has just gone up on the
> website of Contemporary Poetry Review. Women poets may find the essay
> of particular interest. In it, I challenge a number of postmodern
> assumptions about the phallic nature of language, posing instead the
> idea that the organ informing poetic language is the mother tongue.
> Here's the link.
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> 
> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/tongue.htm
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Feb  3 16:37:00 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 16:37:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
Message-ID: <26.4463996c.2d516e7c@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/3/2004 2:27:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes: 
> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/tongue.htm

Here's the link to Paul's essay.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040203/33a4c135/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb  3 18:37:34 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 00:37:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
References: <401FBD50.32098.D41DFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <00fd01c3eaae$b3773910$f0607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I think this is an ode to the beautiful quotation of Rachel Hadas poem and a
sublime exaltation (romantic?) of life. Accompanied by an anguishing feeling
toward death, unexpressed, thus even more forceful. The last paragraph of
Paul Lake:

"Meter and menses, form and morphosis being commensurate, a poet has only to
loose the rhythms and forms of her mother tongue to speak her authentic
self. Writers who, on the other hand, try to excise that phallic-seeming
organ from their compositions, or efface human authors, will find a whiff of
the post-mortem clinging to the post-modern in their deconstructed and
decomposing texts."

shows the author's poetic assumption, one is free to accept or not to accept
his view. The capacity of composing of Lake is involving. Many are the
opening inputs which stir the passivity of the reader and make him/her speak
up his/her personal point of view. This happens through extreme quotes which
do not allow you to sit as a mere spectator. Yes, we all have something to
say pro or against the Oedipus (Elettra) complex, and pro or against all
interpretations of it.

Then Lake starts his speech, taking you here and there into his flights from
science to narrative and adds to it symbolic keys.

(milk in Italian is latte, in French, lait; German: Milch; Spanish: leche).

It is with a strong partaking that I read his writings.
My thanks also to Bales who brought the article up again, my intention was
to read it "later" and in the meantime it got buried under other mails.

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Prayer
Whatever happens. Whatever
what is is is what
I want. Only that. But that.
Galway Kinnell


> On 2 Feb 2004 at 12:47, Paul Lake wrote:
>
> > My new essay "Poetry in the Mother Tongue" has just gone up on the
> > website of Contemporary Poetry Review. Women poets may find the essay
> > of particular interest. In it, I challenge a number of postmodern
> > assumptions about the phallic nature of language, posing instead the
> > idea that the organ informing poetic language is the mother tongue.
> > Here's the link.
> >
> > Paul Lake
> >
> >
> > http://www.cprw.com/Lake/tongue.htm
> >
> > ---
> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb  3 18:31:35 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 17:31:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
Message-ID: <BC458B77.5F7C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>


 http://www.cprw.com/Lake/tongue.htm

Thanks, Sam, for posting the link to my essay. Here it is again for those
who missed it.  

Let me recommend it to all who believe that form and meter in poetry are a
male thing, to be resisted and overcome with trepidation by women poets.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From grahamd at vbe.com  Tue Feb  3 22:31:53 2004
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 21:31:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <BC458B77.5F7C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <BC45C3C9.288F%grahamd@vbe.com>

> Let me recommend it to all who believe that form and meter in poetry are a
> male thing, to be resisted and overcome with trepidation by women poets.
> 
> Paul Lake
> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/tongue.htm

Hmmmm.  I might be tempted to file those who so believe under "people whose
opinions I need not bother with," myself, and not feel impelled to write an
essay debunking such a silly claim.

But I'll read the essay to find out who such people might be.  Certainly not
people like Annie Finch, Marilyn Hacker, Mona Van Duyn, Carolyn Kizer, Molly
Peacock, Marilyn Nelson, May Swenson, Gwendolyn Brooks, Madeline DeFrees,
Allison Joseph, Maxine Kumin, June Jordan, Kelly Cherry, Amy Clampitt. . . .


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 10:11:00 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:11:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Announcing Big Bridge Volume 2 Issue 1  BL
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEELIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

If you have trouble with the URL at Big Bridge (fairly slow
at best to this dial-upper), try this
	     http://www.bigbridge.org/erotictitlepage.htm  

and navigate from there. This, though, is where Lynda and 
I strut our stuff.

Hal



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Feb  4 10:46:53 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:46:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <BC45C3C9.288F%grahamd@vbe.com>
Message-ID: <BC46700D.5F85%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

David, certainly the poets you mentioned feel at home in meter.  My essay is
addressed to the postmodern notion that not only meter and form but language
itself is haunted by the "phallus." Think of the term "phallogocentrism." A
silly but widespread idea. Though the poets you mentioned claim formal verse
for themselves, even some of them will probably affirm that they had been
warned against, or felt a certain antipathy toward, formal verse because of
its supposedly male nature.  Molly Peacock, for example, feels compelled to
disrupt her meter and forms--often writing unmetrical sonnets or sonnets
with, say 16, lines--all in the name of disrupting a male norm and somehow
feminizing it by breaking it up a bit.

Paul


on 2/3/04 9:31 PM, David Graham at grahamd at vbe.com wrote:

> 
>> Let me recommend it to all who believe that form and meter in poetry are a
>> male thing, to be resisted and overcome with trepidation by women poets.
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/tongue.htm
> 
> Hmmmm.  I might be tempted to file those who so believe under "people whose
> opinions I need not bother with," myself, and not feel impelled to write an
> essay debunking such a silly claim.
> 
> But I'll read the essay to find out who such people might be.  Certainly not
> people like Annie Finch, Marilyn Hacker, Mona Van Duyn, Carolyn Kizer, Molly
> Peacock, Marilyn Nelson, May Swenson, Gwendolyn Brooks, Madeline DeFrees,
> Allison Joseph, Maxine Kumin, June Jordan, Kelly Cherry, Amy Clampitt. . . .
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at vbe.com
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb  4 11:10:24 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 11:10:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <BC46700D.5F85%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <BC45C3C9.288F%grahamd@vbe.com>
Message-ID: <4020D320.28212.3ABAC8@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2004 at 9:46, Paul Lake wrote:
> David, certainly the poets you mentioned feel at home in meter.  My
> essay is addressed to the postmodern notion that not only meter and
> form but language itself is haunted by the "phallus." Think of the
> term "phallogocentrism." A silly but widespread idea. Though the poets
> you mentioned claim formal verse for themselves, even some of them
> will probably affirm that they had been warned against, or felt a
> certain antipathy toward, formal verse because of its supposedly male
> nature.  Molly Peacock, for example, feels compelled to disrupt her
> meter and forms--often writing unmetrical sonnets or sonnets with, say
> 16, lines--all in the name of disrupting a male norm and somehow
> feminizing it by breaking it up a bit.

I agree with David Graham on this: how did such a silly notion as 
that poetic forms are "male" get abroad in the first place? Who 
thought of that, who agreed with it, who bruited it about? What's the 
history of that idea?

Marcus





From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Feb  4 11:15:19 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:15:19 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1C8@ariel.ripon.edu>

Yes, Paul, I see I should have read your essay before spouting off.  The
metrical wars don't engage me too deeply, I confess--I pay equally little
mind to those who dismiss meter out of hand as I do to those who cling to
the opposite simplification, and from time to time I cherish a hope that
such debates may actually be winding down.  But you do raise a point; and
certainly there has historically been a lot of anxiety involved on every
side.  

In any case, I pay less and less attention to ideologically-driven poetics
these days, in part because it's so obvious that a seductive critical theory
can so easily lead to absurdity.  My own pet peeve, which is noted, I see
now, in your piece, are those theories that attempt to banish, degrade, or
subvert narrative values.  I mean, look around:  do readers in any
significant sense seem to have tired of narrative?  Are they ever likely to?


The hunger for story is primal, and will be fulfilled, if not by Jorie
Graham, then certainly by Anne Tyler, not to mention Hollywood. . . .

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Paul Lake
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:46 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
> 
> David, certainly the poets you mentioned feel at home in meter.  My essay
> is
> addressed to the postmodern notion that not only meter and form but
> language
> itself is haunted by the "phallus." Think of the term "phallogocentrism."
> A
> silly but widespread idea. Though the poets you mentioned claim formal
> verse
> for themselves, even some of them will probably affirm that they had been
> warned against, or felt a certain antipathy toward, formal verse because
> of
> its supposedly male nature.  Molly Peacock, for example, feels compelled
> to
> disrupt her meter and forms--often writing unmetrical sonnets or sonnets
> with, say 16, lines--all in the name of disrupting a male norm and somehow
> feminizing it by breaking it up a bit.
> 
> Paul
> 


From Cadaly at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 11:42:13 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:42:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] philament blue issue
Message-ID: <79.21ef56e0.2d527ae5@aol.com>

Philament's "Blue" edition (January, 2004) is now online.  
http://www.arts.usyd.edu.au/publications/philament/.  


The Editors
Philament
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/03e9edf7/attachment.html>

From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Feb  4 11:46:35 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 10:46:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <4020D320.28212.3ABAC8@localhost>
Message-ID: <BC467E0A.5F8A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/4/04 10:10 AM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> I agree with David Graham on this: how did such a silly notion as
> that poetic forms are "male" get abroad in the first place? Who
> thought of that, who agreed with it, who bruited it about? What's the
> history of that idea?
 

I don't know the answer to this--except that from Aristotle on the idea was
that form was male and matter female. But not only has poetic form been
considered male--partly because the poets of the literary canon who used it
were men, I suppose--but language itself, according to many
Post-Structuralist critics, is haunted by the phallus.  "Phallogocentrism"
is a terrible thing that needs to be purged from language.


Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Feb  4 11:47:58 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 10:47:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1C8@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BC467E5D.5F8C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I agree. If literary writers don't supply narrative, readers will simply
look elsewhere.

Paul


on 2/4/04 10:15 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:

> Yes, Paul, I see I should have read your essay before spouting off.  The
> metrical wars don't engage me too deeply, I confess--I pay equally little
> mind to those who dismiss meter out of hand as I do to those who cling to
> the opposite simplification, and from time to time I cherish a hope that
> such debates may actually be winding down.  But you do raise a point; and
> certainly there has historically been a lot of anxiety involved on every
> side.  
> 
> In any case, I pay less and less attention to ideologically-driven poetics
> these days, in part because it's so obvious that a seductive critical theory
> can so easily lead to absurdity.  My own pet peeve, which is noted, I see
> now, in your piece, are those theories that attempt to banish, degrade, or
> subvert narrative values.  I mean, look around:  do readers in any
> significant sense seem to have tired of narrative?  Are they ever likely to?
> 
> 
> The hunger for story is primal, and will be fulfilled, if not by Jorie
> Graham, then certainly by Anne Tyler, not to mention Hollywood. . . .
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> 
>> ----------
>> From:     Paul Lake
>> Reply To:     new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent:     Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:46 AM
>> To:     new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Subject:     Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
>> 
>> David, certainly the poets you mentioned feel at home in meter.  My essay
>> is
>> addressed to the postmodern notion that not only meter and form but
>> language
>> itself is haunted by the "phallus." Think of the term "phallogocentrism."
>> A
>> silly but widespread idea. Though the poets you mentioned claim formal
>> verse
>> for themselves, even some of them will probably affirm that they had been
>> warned against, or felt a certain antipathy toward, formal verse because
>> of
>> its supposedly male nature.  Molly Peacock, for example, feels compelled
>> to
>> disrupt her meter and forms--often writing unmetrical sonnets or sonnets
>> with, say 16, lines--all in the name of disrupting a male norm and somehow
>> feminizing it by breaking it up a bit.
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From antrobin at clipper.net  Wed Feb  4 12:03:17 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:03:17 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
In-Reply-To: <BC467E5D.5F8C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <061501c3eb40$cf9b4680$69361c40@Emily>

But is it imperative for all writers to always supply narrative?
Can't we have both?

As one who embraces both narrative and non-narrative poetry--both as a
critic and as a writer, I'm always a little irked when I see either side
attempting to polarize the situation.  It certainly doesn't have to be
either/or, does it?

Of course, I suppose much of this discussion will depend on how we
define narrative.  "Hamlet" is certainly narrative, but, is say, Sonnet
84? 

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Lake
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 8:48 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue

I agree. If literary writers don't supply narrative, readers will simply
look elsewhere.

Paul




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 11:59:40 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:59:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in the Mother Tongue
In-Reply-To: <BC467E0A.5F8A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEFAIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Reminds me that the sun is male and the moon is female,
except in German where it's the other way around.

Hal
  
{    I don't know the answer to this--except that from Aristotle on the idea was
{    that form was male and matter female. But not only has poetic form been
{    considered male--partly because the poets of the literary canon who used it
{    were men, I suppose--but language itself, according to many
{    Post-Structuralist critics, is haunted by the phallus.  "Phallogocentrism"
{    is a terrible thing that needs to be purged from language.
{    
{    
{    Paul Lake



From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 12:20:32 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:20:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
Message-ID: <102.3df4b2fd.2d5283e0@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/4/2004 12:04:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
antrobin at clipper.net writes:


> But is it imperative for all writers to always supply narrative?
> Can't we have both?
> 
> 

It is simply not possible to write anything -- anything -- that doesn't 
contain the protoplasm of embedded narrative, that doesn't raise narrative 
possibilities, that fails to hint at narrative. We need story so badly that we will 
find ourselves creating narrative out of the slimmest evidence -- whether a 
grocery list or a lyric, or a lyric composed of the most fractured language.  
Which is why a little bit directed narrative goes a long, long, long, long way. 

Jeffrey Levine, passionate about the possibilities
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/244f413a/attachment.html>

From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Feb  4 12:25:25 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:25:25 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1CA@ariel.ripon.edu>

I'd certainly agree that narrative isn't mandatory.  Song and story are the
two genders of poetry, in my mind, and they've been doing a complicated
mating dance for centuries.  

But what irks *me* are critical theories that dismiss narrative values as
somehow being outmoded, a palpable absurdity; or poetic practice that
repeatedly demonstrates that, yes, one *can* challenge Victorian poetics yet
again, ho hum.  

One problem with such theory and practice is that it would throw out the
narrative baby with the bathwater; another is that it tends to be reactive
and oppositional in nature, utterly dependent, in fact, upon the very values
it keeps energetically hurling away.  

Which is another way of saying that I'm not at all sure Jorie Graham has
added much to the technical repertoire of poetry that wasn't already in use
nearly a century ago; but even that wouldn't bother me if she would tell a
good story now and then.  Many of my friends disagree with me about JG, of
course, but I find her baffling and tedious in the extreme.  

Seems clear to me that radical fragmentation of story, syntax, and even word
is one of the period styles of our era, and something that will look just as
musty to future generations as most of the lockstep heroic couplets of an
earlier age now do.  I could be wrong about Jorie Graham, say--maybe she is
our Alexander Pope, and will seem to have transcended this period style in
wondrous ways.  But she also could be our Humphrey L. Mudgewobble.  Time
will tell.  

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Anthony Robinson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:03 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
> 
> But is it imperative for all writers to always supply narrative?
> Can't we have both?
> 
> As one who embraces both narrative and non-narrative poetry--both as a
> critic and as a writer, I'm always a little irked when I see either side
> attempting to polarize the situation.  It certainly doesn't have to be
> either/or, does it?
> 
> Of course, I suppose much of this discussion will depend on how we
> define narrative.  "Hamlet" is certainly narrative, but, is say, Sonnet
> 84? 
> 
> Tony
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 


From antrobin at clipper.net  Wed Feb  4 12:41:14 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:41:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1CA@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <061e01c3eb46$1d2f8f00$69361c40@Emily>

I agree with most of what both Jeffrey and David have to say--

I think that narrative, or the ghost of it, inheres in all spoken or
written communication.  That said, we require a broad definition of
narrative to hold this view.  I've no problem with that.  For general
usage, though, this can cause problems.  How many people are willing to
buy a description of Gertrude Stein as a narrative poet?  (Wait--don't
answer that...I guess it depend on whether one is looking at "Tender
Buttons" or "Melanctha"...for example).

I find Jorie Graham exceedingly tedious, but it's not her fragments that
get me--it's her incredibly self-absorbed tone.  She is capable of
writing an interesting poem, but it seems that she is more interested in
her back-flap photo than saying anything to anyone.

A "non-narrative" (or, following David, one who writes in fragment) who
I find very interesting is Michael Magee, to name one.  Another
"experimental" writer who doesn't often (or at least lately) write
straight narrative, who is nonetheless very interesting and very (yes!)
entertaining to read is Harryette Mullen.

I too am irked by critical theories that dismiss narrative values as
outmoded.  I don't think they're doing much harm to poetry or literature
in general, however.

I'm also irked by those on the other side of the polemical fence who
dismiss anything but stripped down narrative.

Time for an anecdote--I, along with two friends, edit a new nationally
distributed literary journal, _The Canary_. We endeavor to publish young
writers and "experimental" writers alongside older and/or more
established writers, and more conventional writers as well.  To some,
this is editorial floundering.  I prefer to think of myself (and my
co-editors) as having broad and varied tastes.  Anyhow, shortly after
the first issue appeared, we received a letter from a "Famous Narrative
Poet" who I won't name (but he shares a surname with someone on this
list, someone who has in fact contributed to this thread) who said, and
I'm paraphrasing--There are some good poems here (names several
free-verse, narrative, "working class" poems) but (and this is where the
paraphrase becomes rather interpretive) the rest of this work I don't
understand or like (that's not exactly what he said, but it's more or
less what he meant) and this shows that you have no coherent editorial
vision--this is not a magazine I would submit to.

So, you try to have it both ways and you get hit from both sides.


Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Graham, David
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 9:25 AM
To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative

I'd certainly agree that narrative isn't mandatory.  Song and story are
the
two genders of poetry, in my mind, and they've been doing a complicated
mating dance for centuries.  

But what irks *me* are critical theories that dismiss narrative values
as
somehow being outmoded, a palpable absurdity; or poetic practice that
repeatedly demonstrates that, yes, one *can* challenge Victorian poetics
yet
again, ho hum.  

One problem with such theory and practice is that it would throw out the
narrative baby with the bathwater; another is that it tends to be
reactive
and oppositional in nature, utterly dependent, in fact, upon the very
values
it keeps energetically hurling away.  

Which is another way of saying that I'm not at all sure Jorie Graham has
added much to the technical repertoire of poetry that wasn't already in
use
nearly a century ago; but even that wouldn't bother me if she would tell
a
good story now and then.  Many of my friends disagree with me about JG,
of
course, but I find her baffling and tedious in the extreme.  

Seems clear to me that radical fragmentation of story, syntax, and even
word
is one of the period styles of our era, and something that will look
just as
musty to future generations as most of the lockstep heroic couplets of
an
earlier age now do.  I could be wrong about Jorie Graham, say--maybe she
is
our Alexander Pope, and will seem to have transcended this period style
in
wondrous ways.  But she also could be our Humphrey L. Mudgewobble.  Time
will tell.  

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Anthony Robinson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:03 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
> 
> But is it imperative for all writers to always supply narrative?
> Can't we have both?
> 
> As one who embraces both narrative and non-narrative poetry--both as a
> critic and as a writer, I'm always a little irked when I see either
side
> attempting to polarize the situation.  It certainly doesn't have to be
> either/or, does it?
> 
> Of course, I suppose much of this discussion will depend on how we
> define narrative.  "Hamlet" is certainly narrative, but, is say,
Sonnet
> 84? 
> 
> Tony
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Feb  4 12:48:36 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:48:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
Message-ID: <13812215.1075916916036.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, February 04, 2004, at 12:25PM, Graham, David <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:


>earlier age now do.  I could be wrong about Jorie Graham, say--maybe she is
>our Alexander Pope, and will seem to have transcended this period style in
>wondrous ways.  But she also could be our Humphrey L. Mudgewobble.  Time
>will tell.  

Too bad for her there is no Pope for that particular style--she could at least be rememnered as its Colley Cibber. But I doubt it's possible for such a chimerical beast to exist.


Michael


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Feb  4 12:55:06 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:55:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
References: <061e01c3eb46$1d2f8f00$69361c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <001901c3eb48$0838d1e0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Isn't J Graham telling a story with herself at the center of it? Narrative
can be as tedious as anything else.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative


> I agree with most of what both Jeffrey and David have to say--
>
> I think that narrative, or the ghost of it, inheres in all spoken or
> written communication.  That said, we require a broad definition of
> narrative to hold this view.  I've no problem with that.  For general
> usage, though, this can cause problems.  How many people are willing to
> buy a description of Gertrude Stein as a narrative poet?  (Wait--don't
> answer that...I guess it depend on whether one is looking at "Tender
> Buttons" or "Melanctha"...for example).
>
> I find Jorie Graham exceedingly tedious, but it's not her fragments that
> get me--it's her incredibly self-absorbed tone.  She is capable of
> writing an interesting poem, but it seems that she is more interested in
> her back-flap photo than saying anything to anyone.
>
> A "non-narrative" (or, following David, one who writes in fragment) who
> I find very interesting is Michael Magee, to name one.  Another
> "experimental" writer who doesn't often (or at least lately) write
> straight narrative, who is nonetheless very interesting and very (yes!)
> entertaining to read is Harryette Mullen.
>
> I too am irked by critical theories that dismiss narrative values as
> outmoded.  I don't think they're doing much harm to poetry or literature
> in general, however.
>
> I'm also irked by those on the other side of the polemical fence who
> dismiss anything but stripped down narrative.
>
> Time for an anecdote--I, along with two friends, edit a new nationally
> distributed literary journal, _The Canary_. We endeavor to publish young
> writers and "experimental" writers alongside older and/or more
> established writers, and more conventional writers as well.  To some,
> this is editorial floundering.  I prefer to think of myself (and my
> co-editors) as having broad and varied tastes.  Anyhow, shortly after
> the first issue appeared, we received a letter from a "Famous Narrative
> Poet" who I won't name (but he shares a surname with someone on this
> list, someone who has in fact contributed to this thread) who said, and
> I'm paraphrasing--There are some good poems here (names several
> free-verse, narrative, "working class" poems) but (and this is where the
> paraphrase becomes rather interpretive) the rest of this work I don't
> understand or like (that's not exactly what he said, but it's more or
> less what he meant) and this shows that you have no coherent editorial
> vision--this is not a magazine I would submit to.
>
> So, you try to have it both ways and you get hit from both sides.
>
>
> Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Graham, David
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 9:25 AM
> To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
>
> I'd certainly agree that narrative isn't mandatory.  Song and story are
> the
> two genders of poetry, in my mind, and they've been doing a complicated
> mating dance for centuries.
>
> But what irks *me* are critical theories that dismiss narrative values
> as
> somehow being outmoded, a palpable absurdity; or poetic practice that
> repeatedly demonstrates that, yes, one *can* challenge Victorian poetics
> yet
> again, ho hum.
>
> One problem with such theory and practice is that it would throw out the
> narrative baby with the bathwater; another is that it tends to be
> reactive
> and oppositional in nature, utterly dependent, in fact, upon the very
> values
> it keeps energetically hurling away.
>
> Which is another way of saying that I'm not at all sure Jorie Graham has
> added much to the technical repertoire of poetry that wasn't already in
> use
> nearly a century ago; but even that wouldn't bother me if she would tell
> a
> good story now and then.  Many of my friends disagree with me about JG,
> of
> course, but I find her baffling and tedious in the extreme.
>
> Seems clear to me that radical fragmentation of story, syntax, and even
> word
> is one of the period styles of our era, and something that will look
> just as
> musty to future generations as most of the lockstep heroic couplets of
> an
> earlier age now do.  I could be wrong about Jorie Graham, say--maybe she
> is
> our Alexander Pope, and will seem to have transcended this period style
> in
> wondrous ways.  But she also could be our Humphrey L. Mudgewobble.  Time
> will tell.
>
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: Anthony Robinson
> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:03 AM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
> >
> > But is it imperative for all writers to always supply narrative?
> > Can't we have both?
> >
> > As one who embraces both narrative and non-narrative poetry--both as a
> > critic and as a writer, I'm always a little irked when I see either
> side
> > attempting to polarize the situation.  It certainly doesn't have to be
> > either/or, does it?
> >
> > Of course, I suppose much of this discussion will depend on how we
> > define narrative.  "Hamlet" is certainly narrative, but, is say,
> Sonnet
> > 84?
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 13:51:25 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 13:51:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
Message-ID: <24.4ea216c9.2d52992d@aol.com>

Tony,

I agree with you wholly, and am certainly not in the least oppositional to 
narrative, even wholly narrative poetry (the winner of last year's Editor's 
Prize for Poetry at Tupelo Press was a purely narrative poet).  When I say a 
little narrative goes a long way, I'm talking about craft -- the way narrative is 
used, how it is meant to signify. Story for the sake of story is reductive, 
does little for me in poetry. Story that succeeds in turning expansive, tellingly 
metaphorical, well, then we're talking about something wonderful and rare. 
The neat thing about narrative is the way, really well done, it opens up into 
lyric possibilities. 

As to your anecdote about _The Canary_, it was precisely for the exceptional 
mix of traditional and new (I, know, I know -- I abhor both words), as well as 
for the terrific writing you guys found to package -- that I awarded Canary 
River Press an Oregon Literary Fellowship for publishing last year. I take it 
that was your journal, the one now called _The Canary_?

Jeffrey Levine

In a message dated 2/4/2004 12:42:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
antrobin at clipper.net writes:


> I agree with most of what both Jeffrey and David have to say--
> 
> I think that narrative, or the ghost of it, inheres in all spoken or
> written communication.  That said, we require a broad definition of
> narrative to hold this view.  I've no problem with that.  For general
> usage, though, this can cause problems.  How many people are willing to
> buy a description of Gertrude Stein as a narrative poet?  (Wait--don't
> answer that...I guess it depend on whether one is looking at "Tender
> Buttons" or "Melanctha"...for example).
> 
> I find Jorie Graham exceedingly tedious, but it's not her fragments that
> get me--it's her incredibly self-absorbed tone.  She is capable of
> writing an interesting poem, but it seems that she is more interested in
> her back-flap photo than saying anything to anyone.
> 
> A "non-narrative" (or, following David, one who writes in fragment) who
> I find very interesting is Michael Magee, to name one.  Another
> "experimental" writer who doesn't often (or at least lately) write
> straight narrative, who is nonetheless very interesting and very (yes!)
> entertaining to read is Harryette Mullen.
> 
> I too am irked by critical theories that dismiss narrative values as
> outmoded.  I don't think they're doing much harm to poetry or literature
> in general, however.
> 
> I'm also irked by those on the other side of the polemical fence who
> dismiss anything but stripped down narrative.
> 
> Time for an anecdote--I, along with two friends, edit a new nationally
> distributed literary journal, _The Canary_. We endeavor to publish young
> writers and "experimental" writers alongside older and/or more
> established writers, and more conventional writers as well.  To some,
> this is editorial floundering.  I prefer to think of myself (and my
> co-editors) as having broad and varied tastes.  Anyhow, shortly after
> the first issue appeared, we received a letter from a "Famous Narrative
> Poet" who I won't name (but he shares a surname with someone on this
> list, someone who has in fact contributed to this thread) who said, and
> I'm paraphrasing--There are some good poems here (names several
> free-verse, narrative, "working class" poems) but (and this is where the
> paraphrase becomes rather interpretive) the rest of this work I don't
> understand or like (that's not exactly what he said, but it's more or
> less what he meant) and this shows that you have no coherent editorial
> vision--this is not a magazine I would submit to.
> 
> So, you try to have it both ways and you get hit from both sides.
> 
> 
> Tony
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/35d732d3/attachment.html>

From Cadaly at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 14:01:25 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:01:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers & Teachers Reading Series, Los Angeles, Feb. 17
Message-ID: <a.3b69bc0b.2d529b85@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/4/2004 11:00:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, Cadaly writes:
Writers & Teachers Reading Series
Barnes & Noble Westwood
 
Dodie Bellamy, author of The Letters of Mina Harker, Cunt Ups, & Pink
Steam (forthcoming in June from Suspect Thoughts Press)
 
will read with and introduce fiction writers she's mentored at Antioch Los
Angeles:
 
Steve Abee, author of The Bus: Cosmic Ejaculations of the Daily Mind in 
Transit & King Planet
 
Lamar Hawkins, aka Lara Parker, author of Angelique's Descent: A Dark
Shadows Novel
 
Scott Kraft, theater, TV and screenwriter
 
7 pm, February 17
Barnes & Noble Booksellers
10850 West Pico Blvd.
(at Westwood Blvd.)
Los Angeles, CA 90064
310-475-4144
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/152a4ae2/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Cadaly at aol.com
Subject: Writers & Teachers Reading Series, Los Angeles, Feb. 17
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:00:49 EST
Size: 5159
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/152a4ae2/attachment.mht>

From antrobin at clipper.net  Wed Feb  4 14:02:22 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:02:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
In-Reply-To: <24.4ea216c9.2d52992d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <063601c3eb51$726536e0$69361c40@Emily>

Dear Jeffrey,
 
Of course!  I forgot that you were the judge in that one-so sorry!  But
yes, Canary River Press does publish _The Canary_ (formerly _The Canary
River Review_).  
 
Much thanks for your support!  Issue #3 is due in late March or early
April.
 
Best,
Tony
 
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/563ec2bb/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb  4 16:47:09 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:47:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1CA@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <02a001c3eb68$72c1b750$2fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Which is another way of saying that I'm not at all sure Jorie Graham has
> added much to the technical repertoire of poetry that wasn't already in
use
> nearly a century ago;

I wasn't aware that she'd added ANYthing to the technical repertoire of
poetry.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb  4 16:37:59 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:37:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
References: <102.3df4b2fd.2d5283e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <029801c3eb67$2a10aa80$2fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



It is simply not possible to write anything -- anything -- that doesn't contain the protoplasm of embedded narrative, that doesn't raise narrative possibilities, that fails to hint at narrative.

But wouldn't you agree that some poems are narrative, some not?  Just as, except for the insanely hyperpolitical, some poems are political, some not?

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/6f7e3066/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Feb  4 21:13:23 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:13:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I have been throwing the name Jorie Graham around lately, so perhaps it
would be helpful to have an example of her work in front of us?  The
following would serve as an instance of what I would call her fragmented
style, one which seems quite deliberate about avoiding conventional
narrative flow, and even syntactical resolution.  (She is by no means
*always* this opaque or disjunctive, and this is just an excerpt.)  And yes,
I suppose you could *find* a ghost narrative in the following, if you
wished.  But it's certainly not a story in the normal sense of that word.

To repeat, I'm certainly not saying that all good poems must be stories.
But this particular style is one that doesn't do a thing for me, and one
that I expect will die a swift death, historically, in part because it is so
proudly resistant to providing the conventional pleasures.  But only time
will tell about that, I know.


-----------



A "he" referring to God may be capitalized or not.

(is crying now)          show me

is crying now            (what's wrong)

in a strange tree    of atoms    of

too few            more         no wonder

Give me the glassy ripeness

Give me the glassy ripeness in failure

Give me the atom laying its question at the bottom of nature

Send word                                    Clear fields

Make formal event                                 Walk

                                       Turn back

Reduce all to lower case        Have reduced all

Cross out passages             Have inserted silently

is there a name for?

glassy ripeness

in failure

born and raised

and you?

(go back)                        (need more)

having lived it               leaves it possible

fear    lamentation    shame    ruin    believe    me

explain      given to

explain      born of

Absence is odious                        to God

I'm asking

Unseen unseen                      the treasure unperceived

Unless you compare            the treasure may be lost

Oh my beloved                    I'm asking

More atoms, more days, the noise of the sparrows, of the universals

Yet colder here now than in

the atom still there at the bottom of nature

that we be founded on infinite smallness

which occasions incorruption or immortality"

(incorruption because already as little as it can be)

(escape square, wasted square, safety square, hopeless square)

"to all except anguish the mind soon adjusts"

have reduced, have trimmed, have cleared, have omitted

have      abbreviations      silently      expanded

to what               avail

explain       asks to be followed

explain       remains to be seen

--Jorie Graham.  from "The Reformation Journal".  *Swarm*.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/0295945d/attachment.html>

From MillB at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 21:28:23 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:28:23 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <64.3a27faed.2d530447@aol.com>


I know I know I know.  

Everything you say might be true: fragmentation, syntax, lack of story; 
however (and this is a big however), after reading that piece I want to say (yes,  
I do). Erace here, turn back.  Go there.  

Don't you just FEEL like that poem some days?

I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools.
Let's start with typewriters.

       Frank Lloyd Wright
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/ad6a2618/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Feb  4 21:56:38 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:56:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002701c3eb93$ad0ce850$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

The story of JorieOK, there's a narrative here of sorts - certainly a dialogue, at least. I could probably work it out...but why bother?

"Proudly resistant to providing the conventional pleasures" says it well. To me, it's audience-hating. And I don't feel that about Ashbery. At the top of his game, he gives me wonderful unities of sound, and unexpected emotional kicks.

Tad





  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 9:13 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


  I have been throwing the name Jorie Graham around lately, so perhaps it would be helpful to have an example of her work in front of us?  The following would serve as an instance of what I would call her fragmented style, one which seems quite deliberate about avoiding conventional narrative flow, and even syntactical resolution.  (She is by no means *always* this opaque or disjunctive, and this is just an excerpt.)  And yes, I suppose you could *find* a ghost narrative in the following, if you wished.  But it's certainly not a story in the normal sense of that word.  

  To repeat, I'm certainly not saying that all good poems must be stories.  But this particular style is one that doesn't do a thing for me, and one that I expect will die a swift death, historically, in part because it is so proudly resistant to providing the conventional pleasures.  But only time will tell about that, I know.  


  -----------



  A "he" referring to God may be capitalized or not. 

  (is crying now)          show me

  is crying now            (what's wrong)

  in a strange tree    of atoms    of

  too few            more         no wonder

  Give me the glassy ripeness

  Give me the glassy ripeness in failure

  Give me the atom laying its question at the bottom of nature

  Send word                                    Clear fields

  Make formal event                                 Walk

                                         Turn back

  Reduce all to lower case        Have reduced all

  Cross out passages             Have inserted silently

  is there a name for?

  glassy ripeness

  in failure

  born and raised

  and you?

  (go back)                        (need more)

  having lived it               leaves it possible

  fear    lamentation    shame    ruin    believe    me

  explain      given to

  explain      born of

  Absence is odious                        to God

  I'm asking

  Unseen unseen                      the treasure unperceived

  Unless you compare            the treasure may be lost

  Oh my beloved                    I'm asking

  More atoms, more days, the noise of the sparrows, of the universals

  Yet colder here now than in

  the atom still there at the bottom of nature

  that we be founded on infinite smallness

  which occasions incorruption or immortality"

  (incorruption because already as little as it can be)

  (escape square, wasted square, safety square, hopeless square)

  "to all except anguish the mind soon adjusts"

  have reduced, have trimmed, have cleared, have omitted

  have      abbreviations      silently      expanded

  to what               avail

  explain       asks to be followed

  explain       remains to be seen

  --Jorie Graham.  from "The Reformation Journal".  *Swarm*.

  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/03fe1547/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 22:28:49 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 22:28:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <99.42accb8f.2d531271@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/4/2004 9:57:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:
OK, there's a narrative here of sorts - certainly a dialogue, at least. I 
could probably work it out...but why bother?

Ok, let's try this. If you were going to paint a picture of the trip between, 
say Hartford, CT and Boston, where would you put your easel? There is no way 
to do this within the means of perspective, a fixed vantage point cannot be 
made to accommodate the variables of time and movement. But with a shattering 
(fragmenting) of that artificial unity, a variety of viewpoints and glimpses can 
be interwoven into a single frame. In truth, this means that it corresponds 
more accurately to the dynamics of seeing--we don not generally stand fixedly 
and study the world around us, we take it in by quick glimpses and random 
scanning of the whole range of our view. The eye is restless and fidgety, it is our 
mind that selects to remember data, our memory that orders that data into a 
*picture.*

Why shouldn't a poem be constructed in the same manner? An unfragmented poem 
may not provide the same sort of rational, meditative concentration that 
complete unity might provide, but it allows for the inclusion of content that would 
be impossible under the classical structures of *representation.* It demands, 
too, a special sensitivity to the abstract, almost graphic relationship of 
ideas and images, things and ideas, opening up a second reality (the scattered 
fragments themselves as independent entities) parallel to the representational 
one. This is an important wrinkle, since under the fragmenter's pen, the 
writer's eye is the painter, and the pen does not seek to disguise its process, but 
to make it explicit. Always before, the skill of poetry (just as in 
representational art) was to create an illusion of coherence so believable that the 
artist/writer erases evidence of his/her own participation -- the process itself 
- so as not to disturb the work's credibility to the viewer/reader. With 
fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that possibility a 
central issue in the work--in fact, it is clarity of that very duality that 
constitutes it's art.

By investigating fragmentation (and collage -- think of Susan Mitchell's 
work), these poets question the whole notion of this is *real* and what is 
*representation.*  All of the fragmenter's inclusions work seamlessly within the 
shards of sensed experience that populate these poems. And the new talent they 
require of the poet is the capacity to lend unity -- sensory unity AND a unity of 
ideas -- to this assemblage of fractured sensory details.

For the Greeks, the limitation on viewpoint, like later ideas of unity of 
time, place, and action, was not only an acknowledgment of what they valued -- 
rational thinking and, consequently, rational, civic-minded action-- but a means 
to concentrate on distilling life to essential elements, which they called 
beauty. They did not depict humans as an individual, idiosyncratic and unique, 
but rather sought to discover the universal, unchanging elemental truths of 
human possibilities. What we admire about that culture, why it had such power 
over the centuries to inspire emulation, was its idealism and its focus.

The trouble with such focus, however, is that it leads to a dead end at a 
certain point, when the limitation enables fixed solutions, and the art has gone 
as far as it can go. Even the great moment of classical Greek art ended in a 
vigorous opening up of topics, media, settings and interpretative creativity. 
So swings the pendulum -- from the focusing structure of abstract 
considerations to the expressive free-play of very-human consideration, and, over time, 
back again. But of course, things are never quite the same on the return trip. 

Why take the trouble to read Jorie Graham? Because the fun part is that we 
aren't Greek. Because, if grudgingly, you have to admit that when you read 
David's post, you GET the poem, you GET the intensity, you access it organically, 
and I - at any rate - find it fascinating and, well, moving. What's important 
is the insistence of form, its assertion, and the way any artist is able to 
sweep away the clutter to let it through. The context is locatable. It helps to 
have a different way of looking at things, a feeling for the challenge and the 
play that informs all of the best work. Innocence is the great driver of 
modernism, but innocence is not ignorance, but rather a certain informed shrugging 
off of convention and expectations, just as naivete has been the antidote for 
hidebound academism, a means to insight that connects to a reader's most 
primal, universal self. That's the theory, I think: that our primal selves are 
connected across forms and space, and carry us back before the Tower of Babel and 
all the cultural specifics that separate us.

Sorry to run on like this,
Jeffrey Levine
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/36470e09/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 22:32:09 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 22:32:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs. non-narrative
Message-ID: <ac.5061756d.2d531339@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/4/2004 5:25:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
It is simply not possible to write anything -- anything -- that doesn't 
contain the protoplasm of embedded narrative, that doesn't raise narrative 
possibilities, that fails to hint at narrative.

But wouldn't you agree that some poems are narrative, some not?  Just as, 
except for the insanely hyperpolitical, some poems are political, some not?

--Bob G.


All good poems, I think, aim at lyric intensity. But, sure, it goes without 
saying that, when we look at a poem, we recognize the poet's strategy, and a 
poem with a strong narrative voice will sound narrative, a poem with a strong 
lyric voice will sound lyric. But the elements are always mixed. Oh, there are 
poets whose strategy is to consciously move away from that dichotomy: your 
beloved Jorie Graham, Bob, for example. But I submit, even there, if you begin 
with _The End of Beauty_ and keep on reading through her more and more attenuated 
books, the narrative voice still informs. But let's leave Jorie alone for the 
moment -- someone I utterly ignored until Alan Williamson, a poet at once 
endlessly romantic and endlessly smart - told me that he couldn't stop reading 
her.  At the end of the day, I'm not sure it makes any difference - and I don't 
see why we care - how we catalogue a poem, except for teaching purposes. At 
least, I don't care. Except to be able to talk somewhat intelligently about 
craft: as for example, to say, here's a lyric with a strong narrative influence, 
or here's a narrative that indulges a number of lyric strategies. Ultimately, I 
believe that the tension between our need to tell the story and our 
willingness to surrender to image is one of the principal elements that motors any poem 
worth reading.  And this is not to say that where the poem comes out on the 
lyric o'meter has anything ultimately to do with intent, any more than it would 
work to say, ok, for this poem I'm going to rely on my concrete imagination, 
on that one, my abstract imagination. Good luck finding the right gear. 

Jeffrey Levine
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/1c9b7ff0/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 23:11:26 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:11:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The story of JorieBut the unconventional pleasures there are many, David.
All that
space to feel my way into.

Hal


  I have been throwing the name Jorie Graham around lately, so perhaps it
would be helpful to have an example of her work in front of us?  The
following would serve as an instance of what I would call her fragmented
style, one which seems quite deliberate about avoiding conventional
narrative flow, and even syntactical resolution.  (She is by no means
*always* this opaque or disjunctive, and this is just an excerpt.)  And yes,
I suppose you could *find* a ghost narrative in the following, if you
wished.  But it's certainly not a story in the normal sense of that word.

  To repeat, I'm certainly not saying that all good poems must be stories.
But this particular style is one that doesn't do a thing for me, and one
that I expect will die a swift death, historically, in part because it is so
proudly resistant to providing the conventional pleasures.  But only time
will tell about that, I know.


  -----------



  A "he" referring to God may be capitalized or not.

  (is crying now)          show me

  is crying now            (what's wrong)

  in a strange tree    of atoms    of

  too few            more         no wonder

  Give me the glassy ripeness

  Give me the glassy ripeness in failure

  Give me the atom laying its question at the bottom of nature

  Send word                                    Clear fields

  Make formal event                                 Walk

                                         Turn back

  Reduce all to lower case        Have reduced all

  Cross out passages             Have inserted silently

  is there a name for?

  glassy ripeness

  in failure

  born and raised

  and you?

  (go back)                        (need more)

  having lived it               leaves it possible

  fear    lamentation    shame    ruin    believe    me

  explain      given to

  explain      born of

  Absence is odious                        to God

  I'm asking

  Unseen unseen                      the treasure unperceived

  Unless you compare            the treasure may be lost

  Oh my beloved                    I'm asking

  More atoms, more days, the noise of the sparrows, of the universals

  Yet colder here now than in

  the atom still there at the bottom of nature

  that we be founded on infinite smallness

  which occasions incorruption or immortality"

  (incorruption because already as little as it can be)

  (escape square, wasted square, safety square, hopeless square)

  "to all except anguish the mind soon adjusts"

  have reduced, have trimmed, have cleared, have omitted

  have      abbreviations      silently      expanded

  to what               avail

  explain       asks to be followed

  explain       remains to be seen

  --Jorie Graham.  from "The Reformation Journal".  *Swarm*.

  ====================================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ====================================================

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040204/de669e04/attachment.html>

From chris at chrislott.org  Wed Feb  4 23:44:22 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:44:22 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4021CA26.9050208@chrislott.org>

God knows I've griped to myself enough about Jorie Graham, and this 
piece is a great example of why.

I look at this poem, like many of hers, and I feel much like David. 
Theoretically, I can see what Jeffrey Levine is saying in his passionate 
defense, but I'm not seeing where the passion is in the POEM or how the 
philosophy he espouses is manifest in the piece of art in question.

So there is that. Then there is my suspicion that in reality no one 
really likes or understands Jorie Graham except as a kind of canvas on 
which to hang their pet theories and aesthetic positions. A little 
paranoid, but there you have it. A defense of this kind of work is like 
coming across someone eating a dog turd on my lawn-- no matter how 
enthusiastically they explain what they are doing, I cannot be convinced 
to try it myself or even believe that the turd-eater really likes what 
he is doing.

Let me hasten to add that I am not accusing anyone here of being a fecal 
fiend.

The most vexing question for me, though, is wondering what exactly Jorie 
Graham was thinking when she wrote this poem. Was she thinking about a 
theory like Jeff Levines? What was in her mind (anything?) when she was 
piecing together her collage? What coherent force is there that makes 
this a piece of art and John Smith's random collage making in his intro 
to creative writing class a failed experiment?

c


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 05:45:53 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 05:45:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The story of JorieRe: "A he,"

seems to me, after one quick unsympathetic read, to be about an atom laying its question at the bottom of Nature, the question being, "whaz this mizble existence thing all about, anyway?"  The fragmentedness of the poem mimics the poet's perception of existence.  It's very emotional, David.  It think I could do a fairly coherent and plausible detailed explication of it that indicated a narrative if I thought it worth it, and I don't.  Zillions of other poets are doing the same kind of thing better.

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/aafbea24/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 06:53:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:53:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

The story of Jorie




  Re: "A he,"

  seems to me, after one quick unsympathetic read, to be about an atom laying its question at the bottom of Nature, the question being, "whaz this mizble existence thing all about, anyway?"  The fragmentedness of the poem mimics the poet's perception of existence.  It's very emotional, David.  It think I could do a fairly coherent and plausible detailed explication of it that indicated a narrative if I thought it worth it, and I don't.  Zillions of other poets are doing the same kind of thing better.

  And, for those who haven't kept up with poetry since the fifties, there are many poets taking fragmentation much further and using with vastly more effectiveness than Jorie Graham does--by, for instance, not merely breaking up sentences and phrases but words and even letters.  She's cutting edge only for stults like Bloom and Vendler, and their readers.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/b57129ee/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 07:05:41 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:05:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHAIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When Reading
J's Poem

1. What is this poem about?
2. What is it trying to say?
3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
    sort of thing better?

Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."
                                      --Vicente Huidobro
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

  Re: "A he,"

  seems to me, after one quick unsympathetic read, to be about an atom
laying its question at the bottom of Nature, the question being, "whaz this
mizble existence thing all about, anyway?"  The fragmentedness of the poem
mimics the poet's perception of existence.  It's very emotional, David.  It
think I could do a fairly coherent and plausible detailed explication of it
that indicated a narrative if I thought it worth it, and I don't.  Zillions
of other poets are doing the same kind of thing better.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/f4ea1b0b/attachment.html>

From sondheim at panix.com  Thu Feb  5 10:45:30 2004
From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:45:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] CHARLES BERNSTEIN & KARI EDWARDS AT CASPER JONES this Monday
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0402051045170.18280@panix3.panix.com>



CHARLES BERNSTEIN & KARI EDWARDS AT CASPER JONES


CASPER JONES CAFE READING/TALING/MEDIA SERIES

PLEASE COME!

MONDAY FEBRUARY 9, 7:00 PM, AT CASPER JONES CAFE IN BROOKLYN

(see below for details)


**********************************************************************


CHARLES BERNSTEIN


Charles Bernstein has two recent poetry pamphlets: World on Fire (Nomados)
and Let's Just Say (Chax). Links to recent on-line work at
http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/new.html. He teaches at the
University of Pennsylvania.


KARI EDWARDS


kari edwards is a poet, artist and gender activist, winner of New Langton
Art?s Bay Area Award in literature (2002), author of iduna, O Books (2003),
a day in the life of p. , subpress collective (2002), a diary of lies -
Belladonna #27 by Belladonna Books (2002), and post/(pink) Scarlet Press
(2000). sie is also the poetry editor I.F.G.E?s Transgender - Tapestry: a
International Publication on Transgender issues. hir work has been
exhibited throughout the united states, including denver art museum, new
orleans contemporary art museum, university of california-san diego, and
university of massachusetts - amherst. edwards? work can also be found in
Scribner?s The Best American Poetry 2004 (fall, 2004), Experimental
Theology, Public Text 0.2., Seattle Research Institute (2003), Blood and
Tears: Poems for Matthew Shepard, Painted Leaf Press (2000), Aufgabe,
Mirage/Period(ical), Van Gogh?s Ear, Call, Boog City, 88: A Journal of
Contemporary American Poetry, Narrativity, Fulcrum: an annual of poetry and
aesthetics, Pom2,  Shearsman,  and The International Journal of Sexuality
and Gender Studies.


*****************************************************************


Casper Jones House Cafe Bar Lounge

440 Bergen Street
between 5th Ave. & Flatbush Ave.
Parkslope, Brooklyn
(718) 399-8741
take the Q train to 7th Ave or the 2/3 train to Bergen Street

Contact Brenda Iijima or Alan Sondheim for further information.

Brenda Iijima: yoyolabs at hotmail.com
Alan Sondheim: sondheim at panix.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 10:29:37 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 10:29:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Announcing Big Bridge Volume 2 Issue 1  BL
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEELIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEHFIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The Big Bridge URLs, which didn't seem to be functioning
yesterday, seem to be working now.

http://bigbridge.org

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html

{    -----Original Message-----
{    From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson
{    Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 10:11 AM
{    To: New-Poetry
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Announcing Big Bridge Volume 2 Issue 1 BL
{    
{    
{    If you have trouble with the URL at Big Bridge (fairly slow
{    at best to this dial-upper), try this
{    	     http://www.bigbridge.org/erotictitlepage.htm  
{    
{    and navigate from there. This, though, is where Lynda and 
{    I strut our stuff.
{    
{    Hal
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 11:15:37 2004
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:15:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
Message-ID: <20040205161537.45306.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com>

Howdy New-Poetry Listers,

The below came from a colleague on a separate
listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?

Thanks to all responses,

Jeff Newberry


>Dear all,
>
>The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
Kingston, Meg Jensen
>Jensen:
>
>"Dear Colleagues,
>
>I would like to draw on your collective trivial
knowledge for a lecture 
>in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
for is anecdoctal 
>tales of how famous writers have written - what
specific techniques or 
>totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
up (sometimes). 
>John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing. 
There need be no 
>evidence - myths will do....
>
>I await your responses most eagerly...."


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Feb  5 11:35:40 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:35:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <99610-22004245163540414@M2W085.mail2web.com>

I like Hal's list.

What about the questions one might profitably ask oneself?


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:05:41 -0500
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When Reading
J's Poem

1. What is this poem about?
2. What is it trying to say?
3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
    sort of thing better?

Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."
                                      --Vicente Huidobro
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

  Re: "A he,"

  seems to me, after one quick unsympathetic read, to be about an atom
laying its question at the bottom of Nature, the question being, "whaz this
mizble existence thing all about, anyway?"  The fragmentedness of the poem
mimics the poet's perception of existence.  It's very emotional, David.  It
think I could do a fairly coherent and plausible detailed explication of it
that indicated a narrative if I thought it worth it, and I don't.  Zillions
of other poets are doing the same kind of thing better.

  --Bob G.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Feb  5 11:38:22 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:38:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
Message-ID: <191690-22004245163822697@M2W046.mail2web.com>

My favorite -- dunno if it's apocryphal or not -- was Victor Hugo, who
hated to write so much that he had his secretary lock him in his room
during his writing hours, but since that didn't work -- he could climb out
the window and escape -- he had his secretary lock him in his rooom naked.


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Jeff Newberry jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:15:37 -0800 (PST)
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits


Howdy New-Poetry Listers,

The below came from a colleague on a separate
listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?

Thanks to all responses,

Jeff Newberry


>Dear all,
>
>The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
Kingston, Meg Jensen
>Jensen:
>
>"Dear Colleagues,
>
>I would like to draw on your collective trivial
knowledge for a lecture 
>in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
for is anecdoctal 
>tales of how famous writers have written - what
specific techniques or 
>totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
up (sometimes). 
>John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing. 
There need be no 
>evidence - myths will do....
>
>I await your responses most eagerly...."


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .





From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 11:32:10 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:32:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
In-Reply-To: <20040205161537.45306.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thomas Wolfe (not the one in the white suit) according to
report would write standing up, and being very tall would
do so on the top of a fridge, writing by hand on long yellow
legal sheets, dropping each page into a box on the floor.
When the box was full, he'd send it off to Maxwell Perkins
at Scribner's, and Perkins would somehow carve a novel
out of the pages sent.

Hal
  
{    Howdy New-Poetry Listers,
{    
{    The below came from a colleague on a separate
{    listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?
{    
{    Thanks to all responses,
{    
{    Jeff Newberry
{    
{    
{    >Dear all,
{    >
{    >The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
{    Kingston, Meg Jensen
{    >Jensen:
{    >
{    >"Dear Colleagues,
{    >
{    >I would like to draw on your collective trivial
{    knowledge for a lecture 
{    >in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
{    for is anecdoctal 
{    >tales of how famous writers have written - what
{    specific techniques or 
{    >totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
{    up (sometimes). 
{    >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing. 
{    There need be no 
{    >evidence - myths will do....
{    >
{    >I await your responses most eagerly...."
{    
{    
{    __________________________________
{    Do you Yahoo!?
{    Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
{    http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From kpaul at mallasch.com  Thu Feb  5 12:05:30 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:05:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
In-Reply-To: <191690-22004245163822697@M2W046.mail2web.com>
References: <191690-22004245163822697@M2W046.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040205120437.T50053@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Kerouac took a lot of speed (??) and wrote On the Road in two weeks or so.
Not sure if this is myth or reality. Reading the book, though, I can see
how it was possible ;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

p.s. on the poetry side, Bukowski drank a lot...

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

>
> My favorite -- dunno if it's apocryphal or not -- was Victor Hugo, who
> hated to write so much that he had his secretary lock him in his room
> during his writing hours, but since that didn't work -- he could climb out
> the window and escape -- he had his secretary lock him in his rooom naked.
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Jeff Newberry jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:15:37 -0800 (PST)
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
>
>
> Howdy New-Poetry Listers,
>
> The below came from a colleague on a separate
> listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?
>
> Thanks to all responses,
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> >Dear all,
> >
> >The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
> Kingston, Meg Jensen
> >Jensen:
> >
> >"Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >I would like to draw on your collective trivial
> knowledge for a lecture
> >in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
> for is anecdoctal
> >tales of how famous writers have written - what
> specific techniques or
> >totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
> up (sometimes).
> >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing.
> There need be no
> >evidence - myths will do....
> >
> >I await your responses most eagerly...."
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 11:39:34 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:39:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <99610-22004245163540414@M2W085.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEHJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Don't take offense, Tad, but I'd add your question to
my list also.

Hal

{    I like Hal's list.
{    
{    What about the questions one might profitably ask oneself?
{    
{    
{    Original Message:
{    -----------------
{    From: Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net
{    Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:05:41 -0500
{    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
{    
{    
{    The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When Reading
{    J's Poem
{    
{    1. What is this poem about?
{    2. What is it trying to say?
{    3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
{    4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
{        sort of thing better?
{    
{    Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
{                     Like a memory, in museums . . ."
{                                          --Vicente Huidobro
{    Halvard Johnson
{    ===============
{    email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    
{      Re: "A he,"
{    
{      seems to me, after one quick unsympathetic read, to be about an atom
{    laying its question at the bottom of Nature, the question being, "whaz this
{    mizble existence thing all about, anyway?"  The fragmentedness of the poem
{    mimics the poet's perception of existence.  It's very emotional, David.  It
{    think I could do a fairly coherent and plausible detailed explication of it
{    that indicated a narrative if I thought it worth it, and I don't.  Zillions
{    of other poets are doing the same kind of thing better.
{    
{      --Bob G.
{    
{    
{    --------------------------------------------------------------------
{    mail2web - Check your email from the web at
{    http://mail2web.com/ .
{    
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu  Thu Feb  5 12:12:19 2004
From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:12:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <20040205161537.45306.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com>
 <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.0.20040205110946.01ba1d68@mail.ilstu.edu>

	I remember being told as an undergraduate that not only did Hemingway 
write standing up, but that he also tried always to end a writing session 
in mid-sentence, so as to have some built-in forward momentum when he 
returned to writing the next time.

						Bill Morgan




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 12:35:26 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:35:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <195.258180a5.2d53d8de@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/4/2004 11:45:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
chris at chrislott.org writes:


> Let me hasten to add that I am not accusing anyone here of being a fecal 
> fiend.
> 

And Antony came to bury Caesar, not to praise him. But let me clarify: I 
don't care at all who likes and doesn't like Jorie Graham. I care even less for 
theory -- the first being irrelevant, the second pretty much useless. I took a 
stab (actually, a long and thoughtful lunge, didn't you think?) at the 
question, *Why bother?* In the first place, I assumed it was asked in good faith, and 
I enjoy a challenge. In the second place, I think we're all worth the effort 
(the poetry, I mean. The poetry). In the third place, derision is easy, scorn 
easier. But listen. Why is putatively *passionless* poetry provoking passionate 
response in the first place? Hmmmm . . .&amp;nbsp; As to what questions to ask, 
there's really only one.

Jeffrey Levine, with an odd taste in my mouth
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/36d15f7f/attachment.html>

From FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 12:54:30 2004
From: FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:54:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] some very sad news, poet Gil Ott has died...
Message-ID: <14.21da487b.2d53dd56@aol.com>

it's a very sad day.

and just as Ron Silliman wrote this morning on his blog,
Gil's "the closest thing Philadelphia has to a dean of poetry"
 <A HREF="http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com">http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com</A>
 

less than month ago, Gil agreed to an interview.  well, he
more than agreed, he was enthusiastic about it, and told me
when it was best to visit him at the hospital with my mini
tape recorder.  here's the link:   <A HREF="http://banjopoets.blogspot.com/">
http://banjopoets.blogspot.com/</A> 

less than 10 days later, i was surprised how difficult it was
for Gil to breathe when i visited with the proofs of his new
book Kyle Schlesinger had e-mailed me to go over with him.
he was able to talk quite freely for the interview, and it was
the most i had seen him smile and heard him laugh, as he
talked about his very rich life of poetry.

Philadelphia poets, and poets everywhere will feel the loss,

...Frank Sherlock had the idea of using our Philly Sound Blog  <A 
HREF="http://phillysound.blogspot.com">http://phillysound.blogspot.com</A> 
as a memorial page for Gil Ott, who died today.

we're asking you, or anyone you know, who would like to share thoughts or 
feelings about Gil and / or his poetry, to please e-mail either me at 
CAConrad13 at AOL.com, or Frank Sherlock at latazzaseries at hotmail.com (please just send to 
one or the other, thank you).  we promise to post your e-mail on the blog with 
others.


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb  5 13:35:59 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:35:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
Message-ID: <15b.2d0e2c0e.2d53e70f@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/5/2004 10:16:57 AM Central Standard Time, 
jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: 
> >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing. 
> There need be no 
> >evidence - myths will do....
> >
> >I await your responses most eagerly...."
> 
Thomas Wolfe writing on the top of the refrigerator is one old one.

Proust had some unusual preparations, as I recall.  Did he have the 
cork-lined room?

Of course there's E. D. with her scraps of paper and fascicles.

Accounts of Frank O'Hara's manscripts being found in sock drawers  are pretty 
funny.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/81a93f8f/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 14:56:41 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:56:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  John Ashbery, "The Recent Past"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEIAIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The Recent Past

Perhaps we ought to feel with more imagination.
As today the sky 70 degrees above zero with lines falling
The way September moves a lace curtain to be near a pear,
The oddest device can't be usual. And that is where
The pejorative sense of fear moves axles. In the stars
There is no longer any peace, emptied like a cup of coffee
Between the blinding rain that interviews.

You were my quintuplets when I decided to leave you
Opening a picture book the pictures were all of grass
Slowly the book was on fire, you the reader
Sitting with specs full of smoke exclaimed
How it was a rhyme for "brick" or "redder."
The next chapter told all about a brook.
You were beginning to see the relation when a tidal wave
Arrived with sinking ships that spelled out "Aladdin."
I thought about the Arab boy in cave
But the thoughts came faster than advice.
If you knew that snow was a still toboggan in space
The print could rhyme with "fallen star."

--John Ashbery

fr. *Rivers and Mountains*
[New York: Holt, Rinehart, Winston, 1966]

Hal, who regrets not having seen you at J.A.'s sold-out
reading at the New School last night                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Thu Feb  5 15:56:30 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:56:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <200402051553.i15Fr2bk003166@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040205125132.00b9a030@incoming.verizon.net>

At 10:53 AM 2/5/2004 -0500, David quoted Jori as below:
>(Emperess over-clothed? -B.)
***********

>   A "he" referring to God may be capitalized or not.
>
>   (is crying now)          show me
>
>   is crying now            (what's wrong)
>
>   in a strange tree    of atoms    of
>
>   too few            more         no wonder
>
>   Give me the glassy ripeness
>
>   Give me the glassy ripeness in failure
>
>   Give me the atom laying its question at the bottom of nature
>
>   Send word                                    Clear fields
>
>   Make formal event                                 Walk
>
>                                          Turn back
>
>   Reduce all to lower case        Have reduced all
>
>   Cross out passages             Have inserted silently
>
>   is there a name for?
>
>   glassy ripeness
>
>   in failure
>
>   born and raised
>
>   and you?
>
>   (go back)                        (need more)
>
>   having lived it               leaves it possible
>
>   fear    lamentation    shame    ruin    believe    me
>
>   explain      given to
>
>   explain      born of
>
>   Absence is odious                        to God
>
>   I'm asking
>
>   Unseen unseen                      the treasure unperceived
>
>   Unless you compare            the treasure may be lost
>
>   Oh my beloved                    I'm asking
>
>   More atoms, more days, the noise of the sparrows, of the universals
>
>   Yet colder here now than in
>
>   the atom still there at the bottom of nature
>
>   that we be founded on infinite smallness
>
>   which occasions incorruption or immortality"
>
>   (incorruption because already as little as it can be)
>
>   (escape square, wasted square, safety square, hopeless square)
>
>   "to all except anguish the mind soon adjusts"
>
>   have reduced, have trimmed, have cleared, have omitted
>
>   have      abbreviations      silently      expanded
>
>   to what               avail
>
>   explain       asks to be followed
>
>   explain       remains to be seen
>
>   --Jorie Graham.  from "The Reformation Journal".  *Swarm*.
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/6c7035e2/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 16:01:33 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:01:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <99610-22004245163540414@M2W085.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <016301c3ec2b$3e81f900$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I like Hal's list.

I think it silly.  When reading or otherwise taking in a poem, one should
not ask any questions of it.


> What about the questions one might profitably ask oneself?

What about questions one might ask in assessing the poem, or poet--to decide
whether or not to recommend it to friends, for instance, or whether or not
to teach it, or to write about it?

--Bob G.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Feb  5 16:42:00 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:42:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
Message-ID: <ea.4650e3bc.2d5412a8@cs.com>

There was a pretty good review of the new Library of America Pound collection 
in the NYTimes Book Review a few days back:

http://www.nytimes.com/ads/adbanners/popJuly10.html;sz=720x300;ord=2004.02.05.
21.35.40

It has that famous quote by late Pound where he says:

In old age, he essentially admitted he'd been faking it: not to fool anybody 
else, but to fool himself. ''I knew too little about so many things,'' he once 
told his friend Daniel Cory. ''I picked out this and that thing that 
interested me, then jumbled them into a bag. But that's not the way . . . to make a 
work of art.'' 

In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's 
increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to shape 
them into anything.  Those who claim to be fascinated by "process" and such 
seem to champion her poetry, but for me process is only fascinating if it yields 
some kind of result.  I've always thought that Pound's problem was 
essentially one of belief; he didn't have any coherent vision of things (like Yeats's 
self-mythology or Eliot's Anglo-Catholicism) and so desperately wanted one that 
he latched onto Social Credit as a means of unifying and explaining 
everything.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/2d0ffd65/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 16:57:14 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:57:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
Message-ID: <19a.20204997.2d54163a@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/5/2004 4:43:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:
In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's 
increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to shape 
them into anything.
Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds and ends* 
seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is emphatically 
not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but is exactly shape. 
The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and they have their own 
coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn (relearn) how to look? Of 
course, I do recognize that I'm talking to myself. Alas. I'll stop now.

Jeffrey Levine
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/2d19ade5/attachment.html>

From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 17:26:14 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:26:14 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Changing the Subject
Message-ID: <4022C305.EA6053B7@earthlink.net>

Available in March!  If the webpage doesn't make it past the robot, then
at least the url will.

- Jim, for himself, and for Hal


http://www.redhen.org/cts.htm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/f3558f52/attachment.htm>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 17:54:50 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:54:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <ea.4650e3bc.2d5412a8@cs.com>
Message-ID: <027d01c3ec3b$11257940$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


It has that famous quote by late Pound where he says:

In old age, he essentially admitted he'd been faking it: not to fool anybody else, but to fool himself. ''I knew too little about so many things,'' he once told his friend Daniel Cory. ''I picked out this and that thing that interested me, then jumbled them into a bag. But that's not the way . . . to make a work of art.'' 

In old age, Grouche Marx watched one of the Marx Brothers films and couldn't understand why anyone would think them funny.

In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to shape them into anything.

My problem with her is that she doesn't do anything of great poetic interest.  I think most of her poems have a core meaning but nothing about them makes me feel like working to find it.

  Those who claim to be fascinated by "process" and such seem to champion her poetry, but for me process is only fascinating if it yields some kind of result.  I've always thought that Pound's problem was essentially one of belief; he didn't have any coherent vision of things (like Yeats's self-mythology or Eliot's Anglo-Catholicism) and so desperately wanted one that he latched onto Social Credit as a means of unifying and explaining everything. 

I tend to think he did have a self-mythology that would easily have sufficed but that his mind brittled and he got infected with Social Credit and became near-monomaniacal about it.  Couldn't keep it from damaging his Cantos.  But I've never really studied the Cantos.  I haven't even read all of them.

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/d0c22e31/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 17:57:34 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:57:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <19a.20204997.2d54163a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <029401c3ec3b$7323d6a0$3aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 2/5/2004 4:43:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
    In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to shape them into anything.
  Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds and ends* seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is emphatically not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but is exactly shape. The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and they have their own coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn (relearn) how to look? Of course, I do recognize that I'm talking to myself. Alas. I'll stop now.

  Not entirely.  I just haven't had the energy to reply to your reasonable and cogent defense of JG.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/a3512268/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Feb  5 18:37:27 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:37:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEHJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005301c3ec41$04950410$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

None taken, and I don't discount the theory that there are NO questions
worth asking about any poem (forgetting that theory is what led to the
eclipse of Whitman in the heyday of the Modernists and New Critics) but it's
a little more purist than I can handle for myself.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


> Don't take offense, Tad, but I'd add your question to
> my list also.
>
> Hal
>
> {    I like Hal's list.
> {
> {    What about the questions one might profitably ask oneself?
> {
> {
> {    Original Message:
> {    -----------------
> {    From: Halvard Johnson halvard at earthlink.net
> {    Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 07:05:41 -0500
> {    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
> {
> {
> {    The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When
Reading
> {    J's Poem
> {
> {    1. What is this poem about?
> {    2. What is it trying to say?
> {    3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
> {    4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
> {        sort of thing better?
> {
> {    Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
> {                     Like a memory, in museums . . ."
> {                                          --Vicente Huidobro
> {    Halvard Johnson
> {    ===============
> {    email: halvard at earthlink.net
> {    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> {
> {      Re: "A he,"
> {
> {      seems to me, after one quick unsympathetic read, to be about an
atom
> {    laying its question at the bottom of Nature, the question being,
"whaz this
> {    mizble existence thing all about, anyway?"  The fragmentedness of the
poem
> {    mimics the poet's perception of existence.  It's very emotional,
David.  It
> {    think I could do a fairly coherent and plausible detailed explication
of it
> {    that indicated a narrative if I thought it worth it, and I don't.
Zillions
> {    of other poets are doing the same kind of thing better.
> {
> {      --Bob G.
> {
> {
> {    --------------------------------------------------------------------
> {    mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> {    http://mail2web.com/ .
> {
> {
> {
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Feb  5 18:55:31 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:55:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  John Ashbery, "The Recent Past"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEIAIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c3ec43$8a2413d0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I would have come, but it was sold out.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: John Ashbery, "The Recent Past"


> 
> The Recent Past
> 
> Perhaps we ought to feel with more imagination.
> As today the sky 70 degrees above zero with lines falling
> The way September moves a lace curtain to be near a pear,
> The oddest device can't be usual. And that is where
> The pejorative sense of fear moves axles. In the stars
> There is no longer any peace, emptied like a cup of coffee
> Between the blinding rain that interviews.
> 
> You were my quintuplets when I decided to leave you
> Opening a picture book the pictures were all of grass
> Slowly the book was on fire, you the reader
> Sitting with specs full of smoke exclaimed
> How it was a rhyme for "brick" or "redder."
> The next chapter told all about a brook.
> You were beginning to see the relation when a tidal wave
> Arrived with sinking ships that spelled out "Aladdin."
> I thought about the Arab boy in cave
> But the thoughts came faster than advice.
> If you knew that snow was a still toboggan in space
> The print could rhyme with "fallen star."
> 
> --John Ashbery
> 
> fr. *Rivers and Mountains*
> [New York: Holt, Rinehart, Winston, 1966]
> 
> Hal, who regrets not having seen you at J.A.'s sold-out
> reading at the New School last night                
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From chris at chrislott.org  Thu Feb  5 18:59:57 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:59:57 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org>

If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be 
better, eh? Groundbreaking and amazing.

Bob Grumman wrote:

>  
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
>     Re: "A he,"
>      
>     seems to me, after one quick unsympathetic read, to be about an atom
>     laying its question at the bottom of Nature, the question being,
>     "whaz this mizble existence thing all about, anyway?"  The
>     fragmentedness of the poem mimics the poet's perception of
>     existence.  It's very emotional, David.  It think I could do a
>     fairly coherent and plausible detailed explication of it that
>     indicated a narrative if I thought it worth it, and I don't. 
>     Zillions of other poets are doing the same kind of thing better.
>      
>     And, for those who haven't kept up with poetry since the fifties,
>     there are many poets taking fragmentation much further and using
>     with vastly more effectiveness than Jorie Graham does--by, for
>     instance, not merely breaking up sentences and phrases but words and
>     even letters.  She's cutting edge only for stults like Bloom and
>     Vendler, and their readers.
>      
>     --Bob G.


-- 
Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
http://www.chrislott.org/

"Laughter is the father of beauty." --William Matthews




From chris at chrislott.org  Thu Feb  5 19:01:11 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:01:11 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHAIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHAIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4022D947.1070108@chrislott.org>

Halvard Johnson wrote:

> A Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When Reading J's Poem
>  
> 1. What is this poem about?
> 2. What is it trying to say?
> 3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
> 4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
>     sort of thing better?

The complete list of what goes through my mind reading that poem:

1.
2. zzzzz
3. what a fucking waste of paper and ink

c
-- 
Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
http://www.chrislott.org/

"Laughter is the father of beauty." --William Matthews




From chris at chrislott.org  Thu Feb  5 19:07:19 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:07:19 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <195.258180a5.2d53d8de@aol.com>
References: <195.258180a5.2d53d8de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4022DAB7.8090801@chrislott.org>

FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:

> And Antony came to bury Caesar, not to praise him. But let me clarify: I 
> don't care at all who likes and doesn't like Jorie Graham. I care even 
> less for theory -- the first being irrelevant, the second pretty much 
> useless. I took a stab (actually, a long and thoughtful lunge, didn't 
> you think?) at the question, *Why bother?* In the first place, I assumed 
> it was asked in good faith, and I enjoy a challenge. In the second 
> place, I think we're all worth the effort (the poetry, I mean. The 
> poetry). In the third place, derision is easy, scorn easier. But listen. 
> Why is putatively *passionless* poetry provoking passionate response in 
> the first place? Hmmmm . . .&nbsp; As to what questions to ask, there's 
> really only one.

Now you are taking it all personal, eh? My point here is that your whole 
message, which was indeed beautiful and persuasive, seems completely 
disconnected from the actual poem we were talking about.

Any passion in my response is surely not due to the poem, but questions 
about the responses to it. I think that's fair. One can find themselves 
triggered by reactions to a lot of other shitty entertainment in many 
media without adding a whit of value to the original piece under discussion.

But then again, you think I am emoting scorn and derision when I 
actually express an honest curiosity of what the composition process is 
like when creating that kind of poem. What does Jorie hang her hat on 
when she drops the words onto the paper, and is the fractured approach 
applied later in the process (and if so, why?) and if not, what DOES 
differentiate it from the amateurs doing much the same thing with what I 
see as an indistinguishable result?

I know I am being incredibly non-post-avant and uncool and showing my 
traditional colors and all that, but us lamers who see that poem and 
fall asleep or get irritated often want to know. And it is no lie that I 
sometimes find myself wondering how ANYONE can claim to like something 
that seems so artless and contrived. I have no obligation to continuous 
magnanimity, and I disagree that all poems are worth the effort (god 
love you for that), but there are many more questions to ask or else 
your own answer would have been much shorter.

c
-- 
Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
http://www.chrislott.org/

"Laughter is the father of beauty." --William Matthews




From chris at chrislott.org  Thu Feb  5 19:21:03 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:21:03 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <4022DAB7.8090801@chrislott.org>
References: <195.258180a5.2d53d8de@aol.com> <4022DAB7.8090801@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <4022DDEF.3080006@chrislott.org>

> But then again, you think I am emoting scorn and derision when I 
> actually express an honest curiosity of what the composition process is 
> like when creating that kind of poem. What does Jorie hang her hat on 
> when she drops the words onto the paper, and is the fractured approach 
> applied later in the process (and if so, why?) and if not, what DOES 
> differentiate it from the amateurs doing much the same thing with what I 
> see as an indistinguishable result?

And before anyone says it, I realize that the aspects of composition can 
be seen as immaterial to apprehending the poem. But a lot of people here 
are poets, and what people are thinking-- what they are *doing*-- when 
they write something that is not based on narrative can be interesting 
to speculate upon. There are numerous parallels in other artistic forms. 
Would King Oliver have had any basic context to understand the avant 
garde playing of Lester Bowie? How would Breughel have understood 
Pollock's process? I know we're supposed to gently revere the old and 
embrace the new (as Bob Grumman basically said, if you think that was 
good, you oughtta see the new guys who are really cracke-- I mean 
"fractured". Kind of like someone going to the bookstore and asking for 
the biggest book they got-- more pages, it must be better. Alas, I 
digress from my digression), but it is interesting to speculate.

As for Jorie, I'm glad Mr. Levine likes her (because it's always a great 
thing when people find what moves them) and he may well be right. But 
I'll take Flannery O'Connor's approach in this case and avoid her 
writing except by accident so I can like her a bit better.

c


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 19:43:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:43:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <10f.2bb6123b.2d543d2a@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/5/2004 6:39:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:

> None taken, and I don't discount the theory that there are NO questions
> worth asking about any poem (forgetting that theory is what led to the
> eclipse of Whitman in the heyday of the Modernists and New Critics) but it's
> a little more purist than I can handle for myself.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:39 AM
> Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
> 
> 
> >Don't take offense, Tad, but I'd add your question to
> >my list also.
> >

I don't think questions are the problem. We should
ask them...ask, and ask again. Bring out the rubber hose
if necessary. A poet is an interlocutor or he/she is nothing.
A poet who tells you s/he's taking into space is a liar. 
And the lie itself is self-evident the moment the poem
pierces the public domain in any fashion (verbal/written). 

A reader who doesn't care about the intent of an author's
utterance is no better than the religious fanatics who are
always seeing weeping Christs in water stains on walls. 

I do think we have to be somewhat forgiving when 
the answers don't come...or don't come easily.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/a577bcf0/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 19:53:52 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:53:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEHJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <005301c3ec41$04950410$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <007601c3ec4b$b231b410$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> None taken, and I don't discount the theory that there are NO questions
> worth asking about any poem (forgetting that theory is what led to the
> eclipse of Whitman in the heyday of the Modernists and New Critics) but
it's
> a little more purist than I can handle for myself.

I trust that wasn't a response to what I said, which was that there are no
questions worth asking DURING AN ENCOUNTER WITH a poem.  There are hundreds
of questions worth asking about a poem after or before that.

I do think a good poem will make one FEEL questions during an encounter with
it, though.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 20:14:32 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:14:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
> better, eh?
>
How do you find me suggesting that, Chris?

>Groundbreaking and amazing.

Breaking up words MEANINGFULLY when first done WAS groundbreaking and
amazing.  So much so that Philistines still cannot understand the point of
it.  It was, for instance, not a matter of cutting texts into smaller pieces
but of cutting them into another order of meaning--the way dividing atoms
into electrons and other subactomic particles results in another order of
chemistry  from the result of dividing molecules into atoms.  Ditto the
later fragmentation of letters.

--Bob G.






From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 20:16:37 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:16:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <bd.3c04a21a.2d5444f5@aol.com>

I'm a big Jorie Graham fan on account of what
she tries to do in poems. She often tries to do
too much. But her poems, over the years, just 
seethe with ambition. 

Where she falls down, and I do think she does
in the passage David posted, it's because in an effort 
to test limits, to be out on an edge, you can feel the
strain. It's excruciating...like watching a dancer
think through the steps she's taking.  If the experience
is the artifice, then the poem fails. The experience
should call upon us to examine and lay bare the artifice,
creating a secondary or added delight in the poem.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040205/28656ed4/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb  5 20:22:27 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:22:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <195.258180a5.2d53d8de@aol.com> <4022DAB7.8090801@chrislott.org> <4022DDEF.3080006@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <00ab01c3ec4f$b03a2d00$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Would King Oliver have had any basic context to understand the avant
> garde playing of Lester Bowie? How would Breughel have understood
> Pollock's process? I know we're supposed to gently revere the old and
> embrace the new (as Bob Grumman basically said, if you think that was
> good, you oughtta see the new guys who are really cracke-- I mean
> "fractured".

Sorry, I said nothing of the sort, Chris.  I don't have a high opinion of
Jorie Graham's poetry, and pointed out that it isn't even cutting
edge--except for stults like Bloom and Vendler.

> Kind of like someone going to the bookstore and asking for
> the biggest book they got-- more pages, it must be better.

Actually, what I was saying was more like if you think this book is long,
you should know there are much longer books around.

--Bob G.




From poemlady at cox.net  Thu Feb  5 20:36:01 2004
From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:36:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jorie and Carolyn
References: <195.258180a5.2d53d8de@aol.com> <4022DAB7.8090801@chrislott.org> <4022DDEF.3080006@chrislott.org> <00ab01c3ec4f$b03a2d00$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <002d01c3ec51$94033490$6c41e544@Zoom>

For those of you who like a bit of disconnect, the adventure of putting
fragments together into a framework of meaning, I've discovered such joy in
"The Blue Hour," Carolyn Forche's newest book just nominated for a National
Book Critics Award.  I'm not usually a fan of this kind of work, and am
still whining about C.D. Wright's "Deepstep Come Shining" for I felt like I
was wandering around in a fog littered with Voo Doo-like images and
underlying meaning eluded me, but I am finding Forche's fragments are much
more pleasurable to tumble around in, and the sonics of her language so
satisfying.  I think her ability to establish a range of tones through
carefully chosen sounds and images helps me determine at least some
elementary level of meaning on the first reading. I know I'll be back in
this book for another ride, then probably yet another after that. I highly
recommend this book.  I'd love to hear from those of you who have read it.
Audrey




From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 22:51:30 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 22:51:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <007601c3ec4b$b231b410$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEJFIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


{    -----Original Message-----
{    From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Bob Grumman
{    Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 7:54 PM
{    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
{    
{    
{    > None taken, and I don't discount the theory that there are NO questions
{    > worth asking about any poem (forgetting that theory is what led to the
{    > eclipse of Whitman in the heyday of the Modernists and New Critics) but
{    it's
{    > a little more purist than I can handle for myself.
{    
{    I trust that wasn't a response to what I said, which was that there are no
{    questions worth asking DURING AN ENCOUNTER WITH a poem.  There are hundreds
{    of questions worth asking about a poem after or before that.

That's what I thought you were saying, Bob, and that seems
reasonable enough to me. Not asking any of those questions
is fine too--going back into the poem, again and again as long
as one feels the urge to.

{    I do think a good poem will make one FEEL questions during an encounter with
{    it, though.

Sure, questions and all sorts of things.

Hal



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb  6 06:59:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:59:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
References: <191690-22004245163822697@M2W046.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c3eca8$b8c86eb0$1b1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Giulio Turcato (1912-1995) had his wife lock him in his studio, the much he
hated painting, on the other side he was an irreprehensible gourmand...

From: <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 5:38 PM


>
> My favorite -- dunno if it's apocryphal or not -- was Victor Hugo, who
> hated to write so much that he had his secretary lock him in his room
> during his writing hours, but since that didn't work -- he could climb out
> the window and escape -- he had his secretary lock him in his rooom naked.
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Jeff Newberry jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:15:37 -0800 (PST)
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
>
>
> Howdy New-Poetry Listers,
>
> The below came from a colleague on a separate
> listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?
>
> Thanks to all responses,
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
>
> >Dear all,
> >
> >The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
> Kingston, Meg Jensen
> >Jensen:
> >
> >"Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >I would like to draw on your collective trivial
> knowledge for a lecture
> >in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
> for is anecdoctal
> >tales of how famous writers have written - what
> specific techniques or
> >totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
> up (sometimes).
> >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing.
> There need be no
> >evidence - myths will do....
> >
> >I await your responses most eagerly...."
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb  6 07:39:56 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 07:39:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <64.3a27faed.2d530447@aol.com>
Message-ID: <402344CC.13637.12C815@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2004 at 21:28, MillB at aol.com wrote:
> Everything you say might be true: fragmentation, syntax, lack of
> story; however (and this is a big however), after reading that piece I
> want to say (yes, I do). Erace here, turn back. Go there. 
> Don't you just FEEL like that poem some days?

No, I don't. And most of the reason I don't is that it doesn't seem 
like a poem to me at all. It seems, instead, like the ravings of a 
lunatic transcribed. My wife's sister is a schizophrenic, living in 
the same house, and this "poem" is what she sounds like during her 
menses when the hormones are exacerbating her disease. 
 




From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb  6 08:33:55 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 08:33:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <99.42accb8f.2d531271@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40235173.32255.443692@localhost>

On 4 Feb 2004 at 22:28, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Ok, let's try this. If you were going to paint a picture of the trip
> between, say Hartford, CT and Boston, where would you put your easel?<

Where it would be most significant to tell the story of the trip, of 
course -- and that would depend on the trip. 

> There is no way to do this within the means of perspective, a fixed
> vantage point cannot be made to accommodate the variables of time and
> movement.<<

But there is!  Where did Breughel put his easel to tell the story of 
Icarus's trip? The key to art is to be artful, not to slop blurt all 
over the page in hopes that gullible readers desperately in search of 
a thesis for a paper will be conned into "creating" some kind of 
connection, and claiming that the reader really "writes" the poem. 

> But with a shattering (fragmenting) of that artificial
> unity, a variety of viewpoints and glimpses can be interwoven into a
> single frame.<<

This is academic cant, on the one hand, that tries, and fails, to 
justify artistic laziness, or sheer inability, on the other. The idea 
of art is not to take a fragmented reality and make it more 
fragmentary! There is more than enough fragmentariness out there. 
What human beings seek from art is an attempt to make coherent 
meaning out of the confusion of our lives and times. All times, all 
ages, are confusing and fragmentary; all educations are incomplete. 
The very idea that it is the job of the best-educated, the most-
sensitive, the best-informed, the most-literate is to further 
fragment the already fragmentary is not only absurd, it is foolishly, 
artist-underminingly foolish. 

> Why shouldn't a poem be constructed in the same manner? An 
> unfragmented ... [do you mean "a fragmented?] ...

>... poem may not provide the same sort of rational, 
> meditative concentration that complete unity might provide, but it
> allows for the inclusion of content that would be impossible under the
> classical structures of *representation.* 

In short, it is not Art at all -- it is, instead, Blurt. 

> It demands, too, a special
> sensitivity to the abstract, almost graphic relationship of ideas and
> images, things and ideas, opening up a second reality (the scattered
> fragments themselves as independent entities) parallel to the
> representational one. This is an important wrinkle, since under the
> fragmenter's pen, the writer's eye is the painter, and the pen does
> not seek to disguise its process, but to make it explicit.<<

What's this idea when it's at home?  It's that one need not be an 
artist to claim to be an artist because no matter how fragmentary, no 
matter how absurd, no matter how shabby or random or computer-
generated or even mentally ill, no matter *what*, in fact, there will 
always be someone who cries "Brilliant! You're a genius!". 

> Always
> before, the skill of poetry (just as in representational art) was to
> create an illusion of coherence so believable that the artist/writer
> erases evidence of his/her own participation -- the process itself -
> so as not to disturb the work's credibility to the viewer/reader. With
> fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that
> possibility a central issue in the work--in fact, it is clarity of
> that very duality that constitutes it's [its?] art.<

That's like diagnosing a psychopath as normal because he or she makes 
intrinsic the duality of the possibility that the psychopath's 
murderous ways are sane and all the rest of us are trapped in the 
bourgeois illusion that love, health, and respect for others are 
important and significant matters. 
 
> By investigating fragmentation (and collage -- think of Susan 
> Mitchell's work), these poets question the whole notion of this is
> *real* and what is *representation.* All of the fragmenter's
> inclusions work seamlessly within the shards of sensed experience that
> populate these poems. And the new talent they require of the poet is
> the capacity to lend unity -- sensory unity AND a unity of ideas -- to
> this assemblage of fractured sensory details.<

The problem is that there is no such "new talent". Going back to 
Breughel's "Icarus" for a moment, that's "a fragment" of the whole, 
but it is a carefully-chosen fragment; chosen for importance and 
significance to create meaning. And not just one meaning, either. 

What this assertion that there is a "new talent" to "lend unity" 
(how? by the mere claim of it? by the imprimatur of the poet's mere 
name?) to an "assemblage of fractured sensory details" really claims 
is that there can be no Breughel's "Icarus", and that there never 
could have been. It denies art; it denies that there can be any art 
at all by asserting that any congeries is art so long as someone is 
willing to say it's so.

> For the Greeks, the limitation on viewpoint, like later ideas of unity
> of time, place, and action, was not only an acknowledgment of what
> they valued -- rational thinking and, consequently, rational,
> civic-minded action-- but a means to concentrate on distilling life to
> essential elements, which they called beauty.<<

And, of course, it follows that the assertion that "... [w]ith 
fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that 
possibility a central issue in the work..." that it is an explicitly 
irrational viewpoint, a way to avoid doing anything human at all, 
anything organizing, anything important and significant. It is rooted 
in the desire to give up, to throw up one's hands at difficulty and 
complexity, to believe in the supernatural, and, in short, behave 
like ignorant beasts who, after all, also do nothing human.

> They did not depict
> humans as an individual, idiosyncratic and unique, but rather sought
> to discover the universal, unchanging elemental truths of human
> possibilities. What we admire about that culture, why it had such
> power over the centuries to inspire emulation, was its idealism and
> its focus.<<

But there was an enormous amount, 2500 years, almost all of Western 
Civilization's, art left to do after the Greeks! This view pretends 
there was no Breughel, no Chartres, not even a Pantheon. 

> The trouble with such focus, however, is that it leads to a dead end
> at a certain point, when the limitation enables fixed solutions, and
> the art has gone as far as it can go. Even the great moment of
> classical Greek art ended in a vigorous opening up of topics, media,
> settings and interpretative creativity.<<

Oh, wait! You mean there was art after the Greeks? Art that was ... 
what, representational? No! You're kidding! 

> So swings the pendulum -- from
> the focusing structure of abstract considerations to the expressive
> free-play of very-human consideration, and, over time, back again. But
> of course, things are never quite the same on the return trip. <<

This suggests that there was an immediately post-Greek Jackson 
Pollack -- that the "expressive free-play of very-human 
consideration" cannot have anything to do with representational art, 
with ideals, or with focus. What this really says is pretty explicit 
when you think about it: it means that Jorie Graham, who this view 
defends, really has neither focus nor ideals, but, rather, is merely, 
as I say, blurting a "free-play" that means nothing. And, in fact, 
with the notion of the pendulum thrown in, this view also asserts 
that however necessary the Jorie Graham free-play, it is the other 
end of the pendulum which has at one end Art and at the other Jorie 
Graham -- that Jorie Graham is no artist at all, but merely a blurter 
of free-play at the other end of the spectrum from Art.

> Why take the trouble to read Jorie Graham? Because the fun part is
> that we aren't Greek. Because, if grudgingly, you have to admit that
> when you read David's post, you GET the poem, you GET the intensity,
> you access it organically...<

There is no reason to trouble to read Jorie Graham, according to this 
view's own reasoning. There is nothing TO "get"; there is no 
"intensity" at all; there is nothing to "access organically" (ah, how 
I long for your "input" about the sunset!) because it is at the other 
end of the spectrum, admittedly in this very logic, from art.

> ... Innocence is the great driver of
> modernism, but innocence is not ignorance, but rather a certain
> informed shrugging off of convention and expectations, ...

By the time we get to Jorie Graham there is nothing to "shrug off" 
left of convention or expectation -- it's all been done. Hers is a 
boring repetition of an unsound view, the notion that by claiming it 
is impossible to say anything important or significant one says 
something important and signficant: it is like claiming that the more 
psychopathic one is the saner one is, and it is false and dangerous.

> ... just as naivete
> has been the antidote for hidebound academism, a means to insight that
> connects to a reader's most primal, universal self. That's the theory,
> I think: that our primal selves are connected across forms and space,
> and carry us back before the Tower of Babel and all the cultural
> specifics that separate us.<

But it is precisely hidebound academism that has embraced and 
preserved and tried to justify the Jorie Grahams of the world, and 
those who hold this view that the crazier one is the saner one is. If 
it is really an important social and artistic goal to connect our 
primal selves, why do those who hold this view own cars, go to 
doctors, work at jobs, or even write? Why don't those folks simply 
gather in primitive cave-dwelling bands and howl at the moon? 

Marcus






From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb  6 08:49:10 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 08:49:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org>
References: <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40235506.23406.522B67@localhost>

> Bob Grumman wrote:
> >     And, for those who haven't kept up with poetry since the
> >     fifties, there are many poets taking fragmentation much further
> >     and using with vastly more effectiveness than Jorie Graham
> >     does--by, for instance, not merely breaking up sentences and
> >     phrases but words and even letters.  She's cutting edge only for
> >     stults like Bloom and Vendler, and their readers.

On 5 Feb 2004 at 14:59, Chris Lott wrote:
> If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
> better, eh? Groundbreaking and amazing.

Right -- why bother to stop at letters? what about fragments of 
letters? what about just spattering the page with ink and asking 
people what they see ... oh, wait. That's been done, too. So is all 
art just therapy?

Marcus




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 08:54:01 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 08:54:01 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <39.43957432.2d54f679@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/6/2004 8:49:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
Right -- why bother to stop at letters? what about fragments of 
letters? what about just spattering the page with ink and asking 
people what they see ... oh, wait. That's been done, too. So is all 
art just therapy?

Marcus
I don't know. How do you FEEL about it?

Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/9841e2d4/attachment.html>

From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb  6 09:02:29 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 09:02:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40235825.12774.5E5AE3@localhost>

On 5 Feb 2004 at 20:14, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
> > better, eh?

Grumman:
> How do you find me suggesting that, Chris?

Once again pretending there is no implication or inference possible. 
How do you determine whether to eat or even breathe, Bob, if you 
can't determine by inference whether the implications of your hunger 
are that you'll starve to death if you don't eat?

> Breaking up words MEANINGFULLY when first done WAS groundbreaking and
> amazing.  So much so that Philistines still cannot understand the
> point of it.<

What a MEANing FULL (of it) thing to say! There, I've made a Grumman-
style poem! 

> It was, for instance, not a matter of cutting texts into
> smaller pieces but of cutting them into another order of meaning--the
> way dividing atoms into electrons and other subactomic particles
> results in another order of chemistry  from the result of dividing
> molecules into atoms.  Ditto the later fragmentation of letters.<

Another example of how thoroughly Grumman doesn't understand science.

Marcus







From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 10:15:22 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:15:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <135.2ac848e9.2d55098a@aol.com>

Well, there's no arguing with this, Marcus, not really. Except for the sake 
of argument, which doesn't interest me. De gustibus, and all that. Every 
geometry needs it's starting point. Reject that, reject the geometry. But of course 
you know -- you're too smart not to know -- that I'm not arguing one takes a 
fragmentary world and renders it more faithfully fragmentary. Just the 
opposite, in fact. But anyway, the sort of poetry we're talking about (well, I'm 
talking about), is a huge, stinking, dead horse many are compelled to kick. And you 
correctly suggest that the central bone of fragmentation is that it demands 
something (something more) from the reader: yop. Guilty. It asks the reader to 
spend some time, to consider what's on the page critically, to test that 
against some kind of an intellectual or emotional context -- in short, to get 
involved. 

But, forgive, it seems to me that you're barking up the wrong tree. If one is 
so fixed on what a poem is supposed to be, how can one possibly pay attention 
to what it is. If you're stuck on a travel-bureau image of the Renaissance, 
how can you get past it. Obviously -- obviously -- if one condemns a 
contemporary form based on a value system that recognizes only a certain kind of literal 
representation and traditional workmanship -- the limitations many seem to 
want to impose on poetry -- one overlooks the fact that these very values 
reflect a world quite distant from our own.

A fragmented poetry struggles with modern concerns. Why wouldn't its language 
be a complex and layered as its worldview? Our thinking has been profoundly 
transformed since the 16th century, in every way. Freudian psychology was the 
catalytic of modernism, as were the theory of relativity and practice of 
photography, not to mention two world wars, the advent of mass communication, the 
possibility of nuclear holocaust. Ours is not a time that will accept the tidy 
verities of an opaque, one-point perspective, limited in time and space. The 
real paucity of culture would be to attempt it. Fragmented poetry is a dialogue 
with the past, and thank heavens for that. The universal truth of creativity 
(pardon the presumptuousness -- though I suppose that plea should have gone 
front and center), is that ideas strive for life, just as artists strive to 
midwife them into comprehensible flesh. This labor is at the heart of what's new. 
Our art is its contentious offspring.

If fragmented poetry isn't pretty, isn't peaceful, or doesn't go with the 
furniture; if it doesn't happen to suit some inherited standard of aristocratic 
propriety, then maybe that's just too bad. Our children grow up and find their 
own way: some of them will flop and some will take our breath away. The 
inevitability of that fact is both a wonderful mystery and the only real certainty 
in life, or in art.

Jeffrey

In a message dated 2/6/2004 8:35:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
On 4 Feb 2004 at 22:28, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Ok, let's try this. If you were going to paint a picture of the trip
> between, say Hartford, CT and Boston, where would you put your easel?<

Where it would be most significant to tell the story of the trip, of 
course -- and that would depend on the trip. 

> There is no way to do this within the means of perspective, a fixed
> vantage point cannot be made to accommodate the variables of time and
> movement.<<

But there is!  Where did Breughel put his easel to tell the story of 
Icarus's trip? The key to art is to be artful, not to slop blurt all 
over the page in hopes that gullible readers desperately in search of 
a thesis for a paper will be conned into "creating" some kind of 
connection, and claiming that the reader really "writes" the poem. 

> But with a shattering (fragmenting) of that artificial
> unity, a variety of viewpoints and glimpses can be interwoven into a
> single frame.<<

This is academic cant, on the one hand, that tries, and fails, to 
justify artistic laziness, or sheer inability, on the other. The idea 
of art is not to take a fragmented reality and make it more 
fragmentary! There is more than enough fragmentariness out there. 
What human beings seek from art is an attempt to make coherent 
meaning out of the confusion of our lives and times. All times, all 
ages, are confusing and fragmentary; all educations are incomplete. 
The very idea that it is the job of the best-educated, the most-
sensitive, the best-informed, the most-literate is to further 
fragment the already fragmentary is not only absurd, it is foolishly, 
artist-underminingly foolish. 

> Why shouldn't a poem be constructed in the same manner? An 
> unfragmented ... [do you mean "a fragmented?] ...

>... poem may not provide the same sort of rational, 
> meditative concentration that complete unity might provide, but it
> allows for the inclusion of content that would be impossible under the
> classical structures of *representation.* 

In short, it is not Art at all -- it is, instead, Blurt. 

> It demands, too, a special
> sensitivity to the abstract, almost graphic relationship of ideas and
> images, things and ideas, opening up a second reality (the scattered
> fragments themselves as independent entities) parallel to the
> representational one. This is an important wrinkle, since under the
> fragmenter's pen, the writer's eye is the painter, and the pen does
> not seek to disguise its process, but to make it explicit.<<

What's this idea when it's at home?  It's that one need not be an 
artist to claim to be an artist because no matter how fragmentary, no 
matter how absurd, no matter how shabby or random or computer-
generated or even mentally ill, no matter *what*, in fact, there will 
always be someone who cries "Brilliant! You're a genius!". 

> Always
> before, the skill of poetry (just as in representational art) was to
> create an illusion of coherence so believable that the artist/writer
> erases evidence of his/her own participation -- the process itself -
> so as not to disturb the work's credibility to the viewer/reader. With
> fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that
> possibility a central issue in the work--in fact, it is clarity of
> that very duality that constitutes it's [its?] art.<

That's like diagnosing a psychopath as normal because he or she makes 
intrinsic the duality of the possibility that the psychopath's 
murderous ways are sane and all the rest of us are trapped in the 
bourgeois illusion that love, health, and respect for others are 
important and significant matters. 

> By investigating fragmentation (and collage -- think of Susan 
> Mitchell's work), these poets question the whole notion of this is
> *real* and what is *representation.* All of the fragmenter's
> inclusions work seamlessly within the shards of sensed experience that
> populate these poems. And the new talent they require of the poet is
> the capacity to lend unity -- sensory unity AND a unity of ideas -- to
> this assemblage of fractured sensory details.<

The problem is that there is no such "new talent". Going back to 
Breughel's "Icarus" for a moment, that's "a fragment" of the whole, 
but it is a carefully-chosen fragment; chosen for importance and 
significance to create meaning. And not just one meaning, either. 

What this assertion that there is a "new talent" to "lend unity" 
(how? by the mere claim of it? by the imprimatur of the poet's mere 
name?) to an "assemblage of fractured sensory details" really claims 
is that there can be no Breughel's "Icarus", and that there never 
could have been. It denies art; it denies that there can be any art 
at all by asserting that any congeries is art so long as someone is 
willing to say it's so.

> For the Greeks, the limitation on viewpoint, like later ideas of unity
> of time, place, and action, was not only an acknowledgment of what
> they valued -- rational thinking and, consequently, rational,
> civic-minded action-- but a means to concentrate on distilling life to
> essential elements, which they called beauty.<<

And, of course, it follows that the assertion that "... [w]ith 
fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that 
possibility a central issue in the work..." that it is an explicitly 
irrational viewpoint, a way to avoid doing anything human at all, 
anything organizing, anything important and significant. It is rooted 
in the desire to give up, to throw up one's hands at difficulty and 
complexity, to believe in the supernatural, and, in short, behave 
like ignorant beasts who, after all, also do nothing human.

> They did not depict
> humans as an individual, idiosyncratic and unique, but rather sought
> to discover the universal, unchanging elemental truths of human
> possibilities. What we admire about that culture, why it had such
> power over the centuries to inspire emulation, was its idealism and
> its focus.<<

But there was an enormous amount, 2500 years, almost all of Western 
Civilization's, art left to do after the Greeks! This view pretends 
there was no Breughel, no Chartres, not even a Pantheon. 

> The trouble with such focus, however, is that it leads to a dead end
> at a certain point, when the limitation enables fixed solutions, and
> the art has gone as far as it can go. Even the great moment of
> classical Greek art ended in a vigorous opening up of topics, media,
> settings and interpretative creativity.<<

Oh, wait! You mean there was art after the Greeks? Art that was ... 
what, representational? No! You're kidding! 

> So swings the pendulum -- from
> the focusing structure of abstract considerations to the expressive
> free-play of very-human consideration, and, over time, back again. But
> of course, things are never quite the same on the return trip. <<

This suggests that there was an immediately post-Greek Jackson 
Pollack -- that the "expressive free-play of very-human 
consideration" cannot have anything to do with representational art, 
with ideals, or with focus. What this really says is pretty explicit 
when you think about it: it means that Jorie Graham, who this view 
defends, really has neither focus nor ideals, but, rather, is merely, 
as I say, blurting a "free-play" that means nothing. And, in fact, 
with the notion of the pendulum thrown in, this view also asserts 
that however necessary the Jorie Graham free-play, it is the other 
end of the pendulum which has at one end Art and at the other Jorie 
Graham -- that Jorie Graham is no artist at all, but merely a blurter 
of free-play at the other end of the spectrum from Art.

> Why take the trouble to read Jorie Graham? Because the fun part is
> that we aren't Greek. Because, if grudgingly, you have to admit that
> when you read David's post, you GET the poem, you GET the intensity,
> you access it organically...<

There is no reason to trouble to read Jorie Graham, according to this 
view's own reasoning. There is nothing TO "get"; there is no 
"intensity" at all; there is nothing to "access organically" (ah, how 
I long for your "input" about the sunset!) because it is at the other 
end of the spectrum, admittedly in this very logic, from art.

> ... Innocence is the great driver of
> modernism, but innocence is not ignorance, but rather a certain
> informed shrugging off of convention and expectations, ...

By the time we get to Jorie Graham there is nothing to "shrug off" 
left of convention or expectation -- it's all been done. Hers is a 
boring repetition of an unsound view, the notion that by claiming it 
is impossible to say anything important or significant one says 
something important and signficant: it is like claiming that the more 
psychopathic one is the saner one is, and it is false and dangerous.

> ... just as naivete
> has been the antidote for hidebound academism, a means to insight that
> connects to a reader's most primal, universal self. That's the theory,
> I think: that our primal selves are connected across forms and space,
> and carry us back before the Tower of Babel and all the cultural
> specifics that separate us.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/60b13e43/attachment.html>

From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Feb  6 10:29:40 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:29:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
References: <20040205161537.45306.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c3ecc6$09e22080$570c9942@Helen>

Schiller kept an apple core in his desk. 

???
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:15 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits


> Howdy New-Poetry Listers,
> 
> The below came from a colleague on a separate
> listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?
> 
> Thanks to all responses,
> 
> Jeff Newberry
> 
> 
> >Dear all,
> >
> >The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
> Kingston, Meg Jensen
> >Jensen:
> >
> >"Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >I would like to draw on your collective trivial
> knowledge for a lecture 
> >in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
> for is anecdoctal 
> >tales of how famous writers have written - what
> specific techniques or 
> >totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
> up (sometimes). 
> >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing. 
> There need be no 
> >evidence - myths will do....
> >
> >I await your responses most eagerly...."
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Feb  6 10:49:43 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 07:49:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Oppositional Glory
In-Reply-To: <200402061334.i16DY2bk013714@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040206074357.00b68c70@incoming.verizon.net>

ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004

                      (08:34:02 0500)
From: Reply-To:
                         Contemporary [Send]
                                   Contemporary [Send]
                                         You can
1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:
3. what a fucking
                                       (org>
*Why bother?*
In the
         re. re. re.
{qua qua qua?}
                         find themselves
non-post-avant
hang her hat
                  Lester
                  Bowie
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/20210703/attachment.html>

From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Fri Feb  6 11:04:24 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 08:04:24 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Oppositional Glory Redux
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040206080313.00ba5b58@incoming.verizon.net>

in chaos is
       no subsets
one fit
          fits all
      for good honor
          I gotta "work at"
        just any old gloop
                            of succotash?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/41c68254/attachment.html>

From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Feb  6 10:41:11 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 09:41:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <19a.20204997.2d54163a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC4911B7.5FE9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/5/04 3:57 PM, FanwoodJEL at aol.com at FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/5/2004 4:43:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> writes:
>> In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's
>> increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to
>> shape them into anything.
>> Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds and ends*
>> seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is emphatically
>> not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but is exactly
>> shape. The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and they have
>> their own coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn (relearn) how to
>> look? Of course, I do recognize that I'm talking to myself. Alas. I'll stop
>> now.
>>  
>> Jeffrey Levine
>> 

I?m with Sam on this one, Jeffrey. If there are shapes in Jorie Graham?s
verse, they?re the shapes one sees in ink blots?shapes projected by the
viewing mind.   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/9e55facb/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb  6 11:40:03 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:40:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
References: <20040205161537.45306.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> <00aa01c3ecc6$09e22080$570c9942@Helen>
Message-ID: <001101c3eccf$dec39190$8a737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

And as soon as Schiller died, Goethe couldn't compose a line if he did not
have Schiller's bust close.

From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Schiller kept an apple core in his desk.
>
> ???
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:15 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
>
>
> > Howdy New-Poetry Listers,
> >
> > The below came from a colleague on a separate
> > listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?
> >
> > Thanks to all responses,
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> >
> >
> > >Dear all,
> > >
> > >The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
> > Kingston, Meg Jensen
> > >Jensen:
> > >
> > >"Dear Colleagues,
> > >
> > >I would like to draw on your collective trivial
> > knowledge for a lecture
> > >in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
> > for is anecdoctal
> > >tales of how famous writers have written - what
> > specific techniques or
> > >totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
> > up (sometimes).
> > >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing.
> > There need be no
> > >evidence - myths will do....
> > >
> > >I await your responses most eagerly...."
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 11:55:43 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:55:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: big bridge is up now that the server is up welcome all
Message-ID: <003001c3ecd2$0f085f00$5fe8c043@computer>


-----Original Message-----
From: UB Poetics discussion group
[mailto:POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Rothenberg
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:29 AM
To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: big bridge is up now that the server is up welcome all


Big Bridge Volume 3, Issue 1 is up now. The server was down for about 
24 hours so if you tried to get there you didn't. 

Welcome once again. Michael 

Michael Rothenberg
walterblue at bigbridge.org
Big Bridge
www.bigbridge.org




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 12:36:56 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:36:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <135.2ac848e9.2d55098a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005101c3ecd7$d17e8780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once (because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I tried as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own terms.

I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html

I can't post it here because it has typographical stuff that wouldn't reproduce.

Tad
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/f0fc069d/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 12:38:37 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:38:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
References: <20040205161537.45306.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> <00aa01c3ecc6$09e22080$570c9942@Helen> <001101c3eccf$dec39190$8a737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <009801c3ecd8$1cb45fe0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I have much the same problem, but it doesn't have to be Schiller's.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits


> And as soon as Schiller died, Goethe couldn't compose a line if he did not
> have Schiller's bust close.
>
> From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>
>
> > Schiller kept an apple core in his desk.
> >
> > ???
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:15 AM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
> >
> >
> > > Howdy New-Poetry Listers,
> > >
> > > The below came from a colleague on a separate
> > > listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?
> > >
> > > Thanks to all responses,
> > >
> > > Jeff Newberry
> > >
> > >
> > > >Dear all,
> > > >
> > > >The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
> > > Kingston, Meg Jensen
> > > >Jensen:
> > > >
> > > >"Dear Colleagues,
> > > >
> > > >I would like to draw on your collective trivial
> > > knowledge for a lecture
> > > >in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
> > > for is anecdoctal
> > > >tales of how famous writers have written - what
> > > specific techniques or
> > > >totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
> > > up (sometimes).
> > > >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing.
> > > There need be no
> > > >evidence - myths will do....
> > > >
> > > >I await your responses most eagerly...."
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 12:44:04 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:44:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <BC4911B7.5FE9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <009c01c3ecd8$d06d2210$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-StoryPaul - doesn't this describe all poetry? The only issue is how large we can make the gaps and still have some connection between the image put on the page and the image projected by the viewing mind.

Jorie goes too far for me. Ashbery doesn't. But I think I'd rather wrestle with Jorie, fail, and ultimately be left unsatisfied, than read a poet who puts down the exact image that I'm supposed to project.

Tad
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 10:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story


  on 2/5/04 3:57 PM, FanwoodJEL at aol.com at FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:


    In a message dated 2/5/2004 4:43:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

      In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to shape them into anything.
      Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds and ends* seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is emphatically not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but is exactly shape. The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and they have their own coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn (relearn) how to look? Of course, I do recognize that I'm talking to myself. Alas. I'll stop now.
       
      Jeffrey Levine



  I'm with Sam on this one, Jeffrey. If there are shapes in Jorie Graham's verse, they're the shapes one sees in ink blots-shapes projected by the viewing mind.    
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/ec96bba1/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 12:51:27 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:51:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <005101c3ecd7$d17e8780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEKNIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Well, now I feel it incumbent (strange how often that word comes
up during an election year) upon me to point out that my lists of
unworthy (unuseful?) questions were related to J.G.'s poem (and,
by extension, to others of its kind). Other poems might well benefit
from the asking (and perhaps even answering) of questions of some
sort or other: e.g., "How ancient *was* that mariner?"; "Why the
hell does that guy just stop his cart and watch those woods fill up
with snow?"; "What the fuck is a 'fardel'?"

Hal
  As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once
(because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I tried
as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own terms.

  I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not
worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at
http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html

  I can't post it here because it has typographical stuff that wouldn't
reproduce.

  Tad
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/b9838de6/attachment.html>

From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Feb  6 13:03:29 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:03:29 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1D2@ariel.ripon.edu>

Thanks for this, Tad.

Likewise, I was asked to review Theodore Enslin's mammoth selected poems a
couple years ago, and among other things wrote that I thought his longer
pieces lacked much structural coherence and were a trial to read.  I also
found a certain amount of praiseworthy lyric energy and grace in his work.

My review is online at:

http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/Enslinreview.html

Forgive me for quoting myself, but this does seem related to current
conversations.  Here's the core of my criticism of Enslin:

---------------------
Yet as the years pass, Enslin becomes increasingly ambitious. More and more
of his books from the 1980s on are dominated by lengthy sequences. He
develops an increasingly fragmented, elliptical manner, which to my mind
cuts against the lyric virtues of his best work. In these long poems he
orchestrates the glimpses and glances of his earlier lyrics into lengths
they cannot always gracefully sustain. It is as if this always-musical poet
has tried to compose multiple symphonies for solo flute-moments of piercing
beauty emerge from every one, but as a whole each too often collapses for
lack of structure, variety, and development. At the same time, Enslin's
fondness for making language itself a central concern, rather than language
addressing the physical and emotional landscape, frequently produces the
sort of opacity which is common in the poetry which has been termed
postmodern. Increasingly in the later sequences, readers must labor through
a great deal of tedious wordplay and fragmented or downright ungrammatical
lumps of language:


Let it not

impersonal

flare of lightness

not common

gold as light

the noble frame

of window

gold

caught east and west

morning and evening


If I confess that I don't really understand this, I may be revealing my
weakness as a reader. But it's undeniable that such poetry asks a lot of us.
Perhaps the shimmery elusiveness of passages like this one makes its valid
point about the refractory nature of language and the difficulties of
perception, but I am afraid that my eyes glaze over when faced with a page
of this kind of poetry, much less ten or twenty.
--------------------------

In return for my review I got an aggrieved letter from the author suggesting
that I had not understood his project and needed to open my mind.  Seems to
me I do understand what he's up to, I just don't much like it.  That kind of
radical fragmentation strikes me as at best tedious, particularly when the
poem is more than a few cantos long.  For my taste, the longer a poem, the
more it needs a structural backbone, and there are some conventional ways to
provide same, one of which is narrative.  Dispense with such backbone and I
wonder what takes its place.

At worst, though, such a project is more than tedious, to my eyes, it's
aggressively uninterested in any traditional notion of the poet as maker.
It's a fill-in-the-blanks aesthetic, requiring a reader not only to complete
the poem, but essentially to write it.  If you like that sort of thing,
that's the sort of thing that you like, is my opinion.

De gustibus and all that.  It *is* a trifle irksome, I confess, to be told
in such discussions that the problem is my lack of an open mind and so
forth.  So may it be, but that's less enticing as argument (if we're
arguing) than pointing out what one *does* get out of such a poem.  Along
those lines, thanks to Jeffrey Levine for speaking up for Jorie Graham's
poem--I like pondering that sort of thing even though I ultimately couldn't
agree less.
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	TheOldMole
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Friday, February 6, 2004 11:36 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
> 
> As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once
> (because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I
> tried as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own
> terms.
>  
> I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not
> worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at
> http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html
>  
> I can't post it here because it has typographical stuff that wouldn't
> reproduce.
>  
> Tad
> 


From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 13:24:47 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:24:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <005101c3ecd7$d17e8780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEKPIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Interesting, Tad. But what's the Parallel Tradition? (I know what "a
parallel tradition" might mean,
and Google didn't help.)

Hal
  As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once
(because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I tried
as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own terms.

  I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not
worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at
http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html

  I can't post it here because it has typographical stuff that wouldn't
reproduce.

  Tad
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/6c34c356/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  6 13:58:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:58:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <40235506.23406.522B67@localhost>
Message-ID: <009601c3ece3$271959d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> On 5 Feb 2004 at 14:59, Chris Lott wrote:
> > If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
> > better, eh? Groundbreaking and amazing.
>
> Right -- why bother to stop at letters? what about fragments of
> letters? what about just spattering the page with ink and asking
> people what they see ... oh, wait. That's been done, too. So is all
> art just therapy?
>
> Marcus

No, Marcus, it's all simple-minded, perverse, completely worthless
exhibitionism--except when it does nothing that wasn't being done a hundred
or more years ago.

--Bob G.




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 13:53:54 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:53:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEKPIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00c801c3ece4$620f14c0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

That's a phrase that got kicked around the predecessor to this list -- I think it may have been Ron Silliman's phrase -- help me out here, Ron? -- and it meant, roughly, the tradition that includes LangPo, but is not restricted to it.


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Halvard Johnson 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:24 PM
  Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


  Interesting, Tad. But what's the Parallel Tradition? (I know what "a parallel tradition" might mean,
  and Google didn't help.)

  Hal
    As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once (because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I tried as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own terms.

    I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html

    I can't post it here because it has typographical stuff that wouldn't reproduce.

    Tad
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/badd05eb/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 14:06:52 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:06:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1D2@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00c901c3ece4$63ed71b0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

David -- read and appreciated your review. We really do put ourselves out on
a limb when we talk about "understanding," don't we?

When I'm teaching non-English majors in a core course, I generally say,
fairly early along, that I don't have a problem with their not understanding
poetry, or a poem. I tell them that they're better off following the poem
than worrying about understanding it.

But...we are working on a different plane, and maybe we mean something else
by "understanding." I think if either of us worked at it hard enough, we
could find some understanding of where Enslin is going here -- maybe not
each of us to the same understanding, maybe not anything approaching what
Enslin had in mind. We could talk about what the passage of a day does to
him, about the ambiguity that kicks off the passage -- are the sunrise and
sunset impersonal, or is he telling us not to let them be impersonal? In any
case, it's no use trying to maintain an impersonal stance toward them,
because they'll get to us.

So what's not to understand? For me, I don't understand -- don't feel, don't
connect with -- why it's necessary to hold so much back. I don't know that I
understand what the basis of connecting to a poem like this is. And as I
said in my piece, I don't know how to evaluate it, either critically or
emotionally. That's my problem with Bob Grumman's essay on MNMLST POETRY (
http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm ) -- an essay I like a
lot, and have assigned to my classes. At a certain point -- like his
evaluating of the Geof Huth poem -- the evaluation seems so arbitrary, like
those crossword puzzle contests they used to have in the Daily News, where
they'd explain to you why the right answer was POSH not PUSH.

I confess...the more I look at this Enslin fragment, the more I like it. But
if it hadn't been excerpted in David's review, if I hadn't stopped and
looked at it because of that, if it had been in the middle of ten or twenty
pages, I wouldn't have stopped.

Maybe that's not a bad thing. Poetry isn't for everyone, difficult, hermetic
poetry is for even fewer. All art is selective of its audience, either by
being exclusionary or inclusionary (at a certain level of involvement with
art, we start to get turned off by that which offers itself too eagerly,
tummy up and eyes rolling). Maybe guys like David and myself need guys like
Jeffrey and Hal to open the door a crack, if only by saying, fuck you, what
am I, a porter? Open it yourself.






----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:03 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


> Thanks for this, Tad.
>
> Likewise, I was asked to review Theodore Enslin's mammoth selected poems a
> couple years ago, and among other things wrote that I thought his longer
> pieces lacked much structural coherence and were a trial to read.  I also
> found a certain amount of praiseworthy lyric energy and grace in his work.
>
> My review is online at:
>
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/Enslinreview.html
>
> Forgive me for quoting myself, but this does seem related to current
> conversations.  Here's the core of my criticism of Enslin:
>
> ---------------------
> Yet as the years pass, Enslin becomes increasingly ambitious. More and
more
> of his books from the 1980s on are dominated by lengthy sequences. He
> develops an increasingly fragmented, elliptical manner, which to my mind
> cuts against the lyric virtues of his best work. In these long poems he
> orchestrates the glimpses and glances of his earlier lyrics into lengths
> they cannot always gracefully sustain. It is as if this always-musical
poet
> has tried to compose multiple symphonies for solo flute-moments of
piercing
> beauty emerge from every one, but as a whole each too often collapses for
> lack of structure, variety, and development. At the same time, Enslin's
> fondness for making language itself a central concern, rather than
language
> addressing the physical and emotional landscape, frequently produces the
> sort of opacity which is common in the poetry which has been termed
> postmodern. Increasingly in the later sequences, readers must labor
through
> a great deal of tedious wordplay and fragmented or downright ungrammatical
> lumps of language:
>
>
> Let it not
>
> impersonal
>
> flare of lightness
>
> not common
>
> gold as light
>
> the noble frame
>
> of window
>
> gold
>
> caught east and west
>
> morning and evening
>
>
> If I confess that I don't really understand this, I may be revealing my
> weakness as a reader. But it's undeniable that such poetry asks a lot of
us.
> Perhaps the shimmery elusiveness of passages like this one makes its valid
> point about the refractory nature of language and the difficulties of
> perception, but I am afraid that my eyes glaze over when faced with a page
> of this kind of poetry, much less ten or twenty.
> --------------------------
>
> In return for my review I got an aggrieved letter from the author
suggesting
> that I had not understood his project and needed to open my mind.  Seems
to
> me I do understand what he's up to, I just don't much like it.  That kind
of
> radical fragmentation strikes me as at best tedious, particularly when the
> poem is more than a few cantos long.  For my taste, the longer a poem, the
> more it needs a structural backbone, and there are some conventional ways
to
> provide same, one of which is narrative.  Dispense with such backbone and
I
> wonder what takes its place.
>
> At worst, though, such a project is more than tedious, to my eyes, it's
> aggressively uninterested in any traditional notion of the poet as maker.
> It's a fill-in-the-blanks aesthetic, requiring a reader not only to
complete
> the poem, but essentially to write it.  If you like that sort of thing,
> that's the sort of thing that you like, is my opinion.
>
> De gustibus and all that.  It *is* a trifle irksome, I confess, to be told
> in such discussions that the problem is my lack of an open mind and so
> forth.  So may it be, but that's less enticing as argument (if we're
> arguing) than pointing out what one *does* get out of such a poem.  Along
> those lines, thanks to Jeffrey Levine for speaking up for Jorie Graham's
> poem--I like pondering that sort of thing even though I ultimately
couldn't
> agree less.
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: TheOldMole
> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: Friday, February 6, 2004 11:36 AM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
> >
> > As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once
> > (because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I
> > tried as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own
> > terms.
> >
> > I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not
> > worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at
> > http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html
> >
> > I can't post it here because it has typographical stuff that wouldn't
> > reproduce.
> >
> > Tad
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Feb  6 01:15:14 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:15:14 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <a05100300bc48de2ad5df@[204.215.201.122]>

There is nothing wrong with Graham's poem.  No one so far has made a 
case against the poem, but they've used the poem (Lott's outrageous 
profanity, in particular) as a whipping post for their jealousy of 
Graham's success.  The volume of emotional excess pushing the minor 
carps only demonstrates the feelings of inferiority motivating the 
hidden agendas of Graham's assasins.

Let one poet on this list produce a better poem in the same style. 
We don't need zillions of other poets from which to choose, just one 
from this list.

My bet is that there isn't one.  Certainly, not one from this gaggle 
of guys dissing the chick.

Moi?  I can put my money where my mouth is.  I can produce a poem in 
the same style post haste.  But won't do it until I see Lott's. (Or, 
don't see it.)

C'mon, Lott, Mr. Push and Shove.  Out with it.  No more vomited 
offal.  Produce a poem that is at least as good as Graham's in the 
same style.

Richard Dillon
ELEMENOPE Productions
Bush Country, USA.
-- 


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  6 14:15:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:15:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <40235825.12774.5E5AE3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b601c3ece5$a7a9b9d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > > If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
> > > better, eh?
>
> Grumman:
> > How do you find me suggesting that, Chris?
>
> Once again pretending there is no implication or inference possible.
> How do you determine whether to eat or even breathe, Bob, if you
> can't determine by inference whether the implications of your hunger
> are that you'll starve to death if you don't eat?

A non-verosopath would show in clear language how my saying that some poets
had gone further in cutting up texts than Graham was akin to my suggesting
that because cutting up texts was good, cutting texts up into smaller pieces
was better.

> > Breaking up words MEANINGFULLY when first done WAS groundbreaking and
> > amazing.  So much so that Philistines still cannot understand the
> > point of it.<
>
> What a MEANing FULL (of it) thing to say! There, I've made a Grumman-
> style poem!

Congratulations.  Most verosopaths aren't so creative.

> > It was, for instance, not a matter of cutting texts into
> > smaller pieces but of cutting them into another order of meaning--the
> > way dividing atoms into electrons and other subactomic particles
> > results in another order of chemistry  from the result of dividing
> > molecules into atoms.  Ditto the later fragmentation of letters.<
>
> Another example of how thoroughly Grumman doesn't understand science.
>
Verosopaths rarely do anything but make insulting assertions.

--Bob G.




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 14:33:02 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:33:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <1c3.14b067e3.2d5545ee@aol.com>

[Apparently some of the AOL servers are shooting blanks today. Please, 
somebody, let me know if this actually gets through to the list. Thanks - jl]

Well, there's no arguing with this, Marcus, not really. Every geometry needs 
it's starting point. Reject that, reject the geometry. But of course you know 
-- you're too smart not to know -- that I'm not arguing one takes a 
fragmentary world and renders it more faithfully fragmentary. Just the opposite, in 
fact. But anyway, the sort of poetry we're talking about (well, I'm talking 
about), is a huge, stinking, dead horse many are compelled to kick. And you 
correctly suggest that the central bone of fragmentation is that it demands something 
(something more) from the reader: yop. Guilty. It asks the reader to spend 
some time, to consider what's on the page critically, to test that against some 
kind of an intellectual or emotional context -- in short, to get involved. 

But, forgive, it seems to me that you're barking up the wrong tree. If one is 
so fixed on what a poem is supposed to be, how can one possibly pay attention 
to what it is. If you're stuck on a travel-bureau image of the Renaissance, 
how can you get past it. Obviously -- obviously -- if one condemns a 
contemporary form based on a value system that recognizes only a certain kind of literal 
representation and traditional workmanship -- the limitations many seem to 
want to impose on poetry -- one overlooks the fact that these very values 
reflect a world quite distant from our own. 

A fragmented poetry struggles with modern concerns. Why wouldn't its language 
be a complex and layered as its worldview? Our thinking has been profoundly 
transformed since the 16th century, in every way. Freudian psychology was the 
catalytic of modernism, as were the theory of relativity and practice of 
photography, not to mention two world wars, the advent of mass communication, the 
possibility of nuclear holocaust. Ours is not a time that will accept the tidy 
verities of an opaque, one-point perspective, limited in time and space. The 
real paucity of culture would be to attempt it. Fragmented poetry is a dialogue 
with the past, and thank heavens for that. The universal truth of creativity 
(pardon the presumptuousness -- though I suppose that plea should have gone 
front and center), is that ideas strive for life, just as artists strive to 
midwife them into comprehensible flesh. This labor is at the heart of what's new. 
Our art is its contentious offspring. 

If fragmented poetry isn't pretty, isn't peaceful, or doesn't go with the 
furniture; if it doesn't happen to suit some inherited standard of aristocratic 
propriety, then maybe that's just too bad. Our children grow up and find their 
own way: some of them will flop and some will take our breath away. The 
inevitability of that fact is both a wonderful mystery and the only real certainty 
in life, or in art. 

Jeffrey 

In a message dated 2/6/2004 8:35:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes: 
On 4 Feb 2004 at 22:28, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Ok, let's try this. If you were going to paint a picture of the trfact is 
both a wonderful mystery and the only real certainty in life, or in art.
Jeffrey 
In a message dated 2/6/2004 8:35:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes: 
On 4 Feb 2004 at 22:28, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Ok, let's try this. If you were going to paint a picture of the trip
> between, say Hartford, CT and Boston, where would you put your easel?<

Where it would be most significant to tell the story of the trip, of 
course -- and that would depend on the trip. 

> There is no way to do this within the means of perspective, a fixed
> vantage point cannot be made to accommodate the variables of time and
> movement.<<

But there is! Where did Breughel put his easel to tell the story of 
Icarus's trip? The key to art is to be artful, not to slop blurt all 
over the page in hopes that gullible readers desperately in search of 
a thesis for a paper will be conned into "creating" some kind of 
connection, and claiming that the reader really "writes" the poem. 

> But with a shattering (fragmenting) of that artificial
> unity, a variety of viewpoints and glimpses can be interwoven into a
> single frame.<<

This is academic cant, on the one hand, that tries, and fails, to 
justify artistic laziness, or sheer inability, on the other. The idea 
of art is not to take a fragmented reality and make it more 
fragmentary! There is more than enough fragmentariness out there. 
What human beings seek from art is an attempt to make coherent 
meaning out of the confusion of our lives and times. All times, all 
ages, are confusing and fragmentary; all educations are incomplete. 
The very idea that it is the job of the best-educated, the most-
sensitive, the best-informed, the most-literate is to further 
fragment the already fragmentary is not only absurd, it is foolishly, 
artist-underminingly foolish. 

> Why shouldn't a poem be constructed in the same manner? An 
> unfragmented ... [do you mean "a fragmented?] ...

>... poem may not provide the same sort of rational, 
> meditative concentration that complete unity might provide, but it
> allows for the inclusion of content that would be impossible under the
> classical structures of *representation.* 

In short, it is not Art at all -- it is, instead, Blurt. 

> It demands, too, a special
> sensitivity to the abstract, almost graphic relationship of ideas and
> images, things and ideas, opening up a second reality (the scattered
> fragments themselves as independent entities) parallel to the
> representational one. This is an important wrinkle, since under the
> fragmenter's pen, the writer's eye is the painter, and the pen does
> not seek to disguise its process, but to make it explicit.<<

What's this idea when it's at home? It's that one need not be an 
artist to claim to be an artist because no matter how fragmentary, no 
matter how absurd, no matter how shabby or random or computer-
generated or even mentally ill, no matter *what*, in fact, there will 
always be someone who cries "Brilliant! You're a genius!". 

> Always
> before, the skill of poetry (just as in representational art) was to
> create an illusion of coherence so believable that the artist/writer
> erases evidence of his/her own participation -- the process itself -
> so as not to disturb the work's credibility to the viewer/reader. With
> fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that
> possibility a central issue in the work--in fact, it is clarity of
> that very duality that constitutes it's [its?] art.<

That's like diagnosing a psychopath as normal because he or she makes 
intrinsic the duality of the possibility that the psychopath's 
murderous ways are sane and all the rest of us are trapped in the 
bourgeois illusion that love, health, and respect for others are 
important and significant matters. 

> By investigating fragmentation (and collage -- think of Susan 
> Mitchell's work), these poets question the whole notion of this is
> *real* and what is *representation.* All of the fragmenter's
> inclusions work seamlessly within the shards of sensed experience that
> populate these poems. And the new talent they require of the poet is
> the capacity to lend unity -- sensory unity AND a unity of ideas -- to
> this assemblage of fractured sensory details.<

The problem is that there is no such "new talent". Going back to 
Breughel's "Icarus" for a moment, that's "a fragment" of the whole, 
but it is a carefully-chosen fragment; chosen for importance and 
significance to create meaning. And not just one meaning, either. 

What this assertion that there is a "new talent" to "lend unity" 
(how? by the mere claim of it? by the imprimatur of the poet's mere 
name?) to an "assemblage of fractured sensory details" really claims 
is that there can be no Breughel's "Icarus", and that there never 
could have been. It denies art; it denies that there can be any art 
at all by asserting that any congeries is art so long as someone is 
willing to say it's so.

> For the Greeks, the limitation on viewpoint, like later ideas of unity
> of time, place, and action, was not only an acknowledgment of what
> they valued -- rational thinking and, consequently, rational,
> civic-minded action-- but a means to concentrate on distilling life to
> essential elements, which they called beauty.<<

And, of course, it follows that the assertion that "... [w]ith 
fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that 
possibility a central issue in the work..." that it is an explicitly 
irrational viewpoint, a way to avoid doing anything human at all, 
anything organizing, anything important and significant. It is rooted 
in the desire to give up, to throw up one's hands at difficulty and 
complexity, to believe in the supernatural, and, in short, behave 
like ignorant beasts who, after all, also do nothing human.

> They did not depict
> humans as an individual, idiosyncratic and unique, but rather sought
> to discover the universal, unchanging elemental truths of human
> possibilities. What we admire about that culture, why it had such
> power over the centuries to inspire emulation, was its idealism and
> its focus.<<

But there was an enormous amount, 2500 years, almost all of Western 
Civilization's, art left to do after the Greeks! This view pretends 
there was no Breughel, no Chartres, not even a Pantheon. 

> The trouble with such focus, however, is that it leads to a dead end
> at a certain point, when the limitation enables fixed solutions, and
> the art has gone as far as it can go. Even the great moment of
> classical Greek art ended in a vigorous opening up of topics, media,
> settings and interpretative creativity.<<

Oh, wait! You mean there was art after the Greeks? Art that was ... 
what, representational? No! You're kidding! 

> So swings the pendulum -- from
> the focusing structure of abstract considerations to the expressive
> free-play of very-human consideration, and, over time, back again. But
> of course, things are never quite the same on the return trip. <<

This suggests that there was an immediately post-Greek Jackson 
Pollack -- that the "expressive free-play of very-human 
consideration" cannot have anything to do with representational art, 
with ideals, or with focus. What this really says is pretty explicit 
when you think about it: it means that Jorie Graham, who this view 
defends, really has neither focus nor ideals, but, rather, is merely, 
as I say, blurting a "free-play" that means nothing. And, in fact, 
with the notion of the pendulum thrown in, this view also asserts 
that however necessary the Jorie Graham free-play, it is the other 
end of the pendulum which has at one end Art and at the other Jorie 
Graham -- that Jorie Graham is no artist at all, but merely a blurter 
of free-play at the other end of the spectrum from Art.

> Why take the trouble to read Jorie Graham? Because the fun part is
> that we aren't Greek. Because, if grudgingly, you have to admit that
> when you read David's post, you GET the poem, you GET the intensity,
> you access it organically...<

There is no reason to trouble to read Jorie Graham, according to this 
view's own reasoning. There is nothing TO "get"; there is no 
"intensity" at all; there is nothing to "access organically" (ah, how 
I long for your "input" about the sunset!) because it is at the other 
end of the spectrum, admittedly in this very logic, from art.

> ... Innocence is the great driver of
> modernism, but innocence is not ignorance, but rather a certain
> informed shrugging off of convention and expectations, ...

By the time we get to Jorie Graham there is nothing to "shrug off" 
left of convention or expectation -- it's all been done. Hers is a 
boring repetition of an unsound view, the notion that by claiming it 
is impossible to say anything important or significant one says 
something important and signficant: it is like claiming that the more 
psychopathic one is the saner one is, and it is false and dangerous.

> ... just as naivete
> has been the antidote for hidebound academism, a means to insight that
> connects to a reader's most primal, universal self. That's the theory,
> I think: that our primal selves are connected across forms and space,
> and carry us back before the Tower of Babel and all the cultural
> specifics that separate us.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/618f2d9b/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  6 14:59:23 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:59:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <BC4911B7.5FE9%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <012101c3eceb$b91bea70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-StoryIn the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to shape them into anything.
Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds and ends* seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is emphatically not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but is exactly shape. The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and they have their own coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn (relearn) how to look? Of course, I do recognize that I'm talking to myself. Alas. I'll stop now.
 
Jeffrey Levine



  I'm with Sam on this one, Jeffrey. If there are shapes in Jorie Graham's verse, they're the shapes one sees in ink blots-shapes projected by the viewing mind.    

  I say there are shapes there, and I say so what.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/82147136/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 15:32:38 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:32:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <1c3.14b067e3.2d5545ee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOELFIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Well, that got through to most of us earlier this morning,
Jeffrey, though probably not to Marcus. Nothing unusual
about that, however.

Hal
  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of FanwoodJEL at aol.com
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 2:33 PM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


  [Apparently some of the AOL servers are shooting blanks today. Please,
somebody, let me know if this actually gets through to the list. Thanks -
jl]

  Well, there's no arguing with this, Marcus, not really. Every geometry
needs it's starting point. Reject that, reject the geometry. But of course
you know -- you're too smart not to know -- that I'm not arguing one takes a
fragmentary world and renders it more faithfully fragmentary. Just the
opposite, in fact. But anyway, the sort of poetry we're talking about (well,
I'm talking about), is a huge, stinking, dead horse many are compelled to
kick. And you correctly suggest that the central bone of fragmentation is
that it demands something (something more) from the reader: yop. Guilty. It
asks the reader to spend some time, to consider what's on the page
critically, to test that against some kind of an intellectual or emotional
context -- in short, to get involved.

  But, forgive, it seems to me that you're barking up the wrong tree. If one
is so fixed on what a poem is supposed to be, how can one possibly pay
attention to what it is. If you're stuck on a travel-bureau image of the
Renaissance, how can you get past it. Obviously -- obviously -- if one
condemns a contemporary form based on a value system that recognizes only a
certain kind of literal representation and traditional workmanship -- the
limitations many seem to want to impose on poetry -- one overlooks the fact
that these very values reflect a world quite distant from our own.

  A fragmented poetry struggles with modern concerns. Why wouldn't its
language be a complex and layered as its worldview? Our thinking has been
profoundly transformed since the 16th century, in every way. Freudian
psychology was the catalytic of modernism, as were the theory of relativity
and practice of photography, not to mention two world wars, the advent of
mass communication, the possibility of nuclear holocaust. Ours is not a time
that will accept the tidy verities of an opaque, one-point perspective,
limited in time and space. The real paucity of culture would be to attempt
it. Fragmented poetry is a dialogue with the past, and thank heavens for
that. The universal truth of creativity (pardon the pre catalytic of
modernism, as were the theory of relativity and practice of photography, not
to mention two world wars, the advent of mass communication, the possibility
of nuclear holocaust. Ours is not a time that will accept the tidy verities
of an opaque, one-point perspective, limited in time and space. The real
paucity of culture would be to attempt it. Fragmented poetry is a dialogue
with the past, and thank heavens for that. The universal truth of creativity
(pardon the presumptuousness -- though I suppose that plea should have gone
front and center), is that ideas strive for life, just as artists strive to
midwife them into comprehensible flesh. This labor is at the heart of what's
new. Our art is its contentious offspring.

  If fragmented poetry isn't pretty, isn't peaceful, or doesn't go with the
furniture; if it doesn't happen to suit some inherited standard of
aristocratic propriety, then maybe that's just too bad. Our children grow up
and find their own way: some of them will flop and some will take our breath
away. The inevitability of that fact is both a wonderful mystery and the
only real certainty in life, or in art.

  Jeffrey

  In a message dated 2/6/2004 8:35:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
  On 4 Feb 2004 at 22:28, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
  > Ok, let's try this. If you were going to paint a picture of the trfact
is both a wonderful mystery and the only real certainty in life, or in art.
  Jeffrey
  In a message dated 2/6/2004 8:35:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
  On 4 Feb 2004 at 22:28, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
  > Ok, let's try this. If you were going to paint a picture of the trip
  > between, say Hartford, CT and Boston, where would you put your easel?<

  Where it would be most significant to tell the story of the trip, of
  course -- and that would depend on the trip.

  > There is no way to do this within the means of perspective, a fixed
  > vantage point cannot be made to accommodate the variables of time and
  > movement.<<

  But there is! Where did Breughel put his easel to tell the story of
  Icarus's trip? The key to art is to be artful, not to slop blurt all
  over the page in hopes that gullible readers desperately in search of
  a thesis for a paper will be conned into "creating" some kind of
  connection, and claiming that the reader really "writes" the poem.

  > But with a shattering (fragmenting) of that artificial
  > unity, a variety of viewpoints and glimpses can be interwoven into a
  > single frame.<<

  This is academic cant, on the one hand, that tries, and fails, to
  justify artistic laziness, or sheer inability, on the other. The idea
  of art is not to take a fragmented reality and make it more
  fragmentary! There is more than enough fragmentariness out there.
  What human beings seek from art is an attempt to make coherent
  meaning out of the confusion of our lives and times. All times, all
  ages, are confusing and fragmentary; all educations are incomplete.
  The very idea that it is the job of the best-educated, the most-
  sensitive, the best-informed, the most-literate is to further
  fragment the already fragmentary is not only absurd, it is foolishly,
  artist-underminingly foolish.

  > Why shouldn't a poem be constructed in the same manner? An
  > unfragmented ... [do you mean "a fragmented?] ...

  >... poem may not provide the same sort of rational,
  > meditative concentration that complete unity might provide, but it
  > allows for the inclusion of content that would be impossible under the
  > classical structures of *representation.*

  In short, it is not Art at all -- it is, instead, Blurt.

  > It demands, too, a special
  > sensitivity to the abstract, almost graphic relationship of ideas and
  > images, things and ideas, opening up a second reality (the scattered
  > fragments themselves as independent entities) parallel to the
  > representational one. This is an important wrinkle, since under the
  > fragmenter's pen, the writer's eye is the painter, and the pen does
  > not seek to disguise its process, but to make it explicit.<<

  What's this idea when it's at home? It's that one need not be an
  artist to claim to be an artist because no matter how fragmentary, no
  matter how absurd, no matter how shabby or random or computer-
  generated or even mentally ill, no matter *what*, in fact, there will
  always be someone who cries "Brilliant! You're a genius!".

  > Always
  > before, the skill of poetry (just as in representational art) was to
  > create an illusion of coherence so believable that the artist/writer
  > erases evidence of his/her own participation -- the process itself -
  > so as not to disturb the work's credibility to the viewer/reader. With
  > fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that
  > possibility a central issue in the work--in fact, it is clarity of
  > that very duality that constitutes it's [its?] art.<

  That's like diagnosing a psychopath as normal because he or she makes
  intrinsic the duality of the possibility that the psychopath's
  murderous ways are sane and all the rest of us are trapped in the
  bourgeois illusion that love, health, and respect for others are
  important and significant matters.

  > By investigating fragmentation (and collage -- think of Susan
  > Mitchell's work), these poets question the whole notion of this is
  > *real* and what is *representation.* All of the fragmenter's
  > inclusions work seamlessly within the shards of sensed experience that
  > populate these poems. And the new talent they require of the poet is
  > the capacity to lend unity -- sensory unity AND a unity of ideas -- to
  > this assemblage of fractured sensory details.<

  The problem is that there is no such "new talent". Going back to
  Breughel's "Icarus" for a moment, that's "a fragment" of the whole,
  but it is a carefully-chosen fragment; chosen for importance and
  significance to create meaning. And not just one meaning, either.

  What this assertion that there is a "new talent" to "lend unity"
  (how? by the mere claim of it? by the imprimatur of the poet's mere
  name?) to an "assemblage of fractured sensory details" really claims
  is that there can be no Breughel's "Icarus", and that there never
  could have been. It denies art; it denies that there can be any art
  at all by asserting that any congeries is art so long as someone is
  willing to say it's so.

  > For the Greeks, the limitation on viewpoint, like later ideas of unity
  > of time, place, and action, was not only an acknowledgment of what
  > they valued -- rational thinking and, consequently, rational,
  > civic-minded action-- but a means to concentrate on distilling life to
  > essential elements, which they called beauty.<<

  And, of course, it follows that the assertion that "... [w]ith
  fragmentation, the point is to make the intrinsic duality of that
  possibility a central issue in the work..." that it is an explicitly
  irrational viewpoint, a way to avoid doing anything human at all,
  anything organizing, anything important and significant. It is rooted
  in the desire to give up, to throw up one's hands at difficulty and
  complexity, to believe in the supernatural, and, in short, behave
  like ignorant beasts who, after all, also do nothing human.

  > They did not depict
  > humans as an individual, idiosyncratic and unique, but rather sought
  > to discover the universal, unchanging elemental truths of human
  > possibilities. What we admire about that culture, why it had such
  > power over the centuries to inspire emulation, was its idealism and
  > its focus.<<

  But there was an enormous amount, 2500 years, almost all of Western
  Civilization's, art left to do after the Greeks! This view pretends
  there was no Breughel, no Chartres, not even a Pantheon.

  > The trouble with such focus, however, is that it leads to a dead end
  > at a certain point, when the limitation enables fixed solutions, and
  > the art has gone as far as it can go. Even the great moment of
  > classical Greek art ended in a vigorous opening up of topics, media,
  > settings and interpretative creativity.<<

  Oh, wait! You mean there was art after the Greeks? Art that was ...
  what, representational? No! You're kidding!

  > So swings the pendulum -- from
  > the focusing structure of abstract considerations to the expressive
  > free-play of very-human consideration, and, over time, back again. But
  > of course, things are never quite the same on the return trip. <<

  This suggests that there was an immediately post-Greek Jackson
  Pollack -- that the "expressive free-play of very-human
  consideration" cannot have anything to do with representational art,
  with ideals, or with focus. What this really says is pretty explicit
  when you think about it: it means that Jorie Graham, who this view
  defends, really has neither focus nor ideals, but, rather, is merely,
  as I say, blurting a "free-play" that means nothing. And, in fact,
  with the notion of the pendulum thrown in, this view also asserts
  that however necessary the Jorie Graham free-play, it is the other
  end of the pendulum which has at one end Art and at the other Jorie
  Graham -- that Jorie Graham is no artist at all, but merely a blurter
  of free-play at the other end of the spectrum from Art.

  > Why take the trouble to read Jorie Graham? Because the fun part is
  > that we aren't Greek. Because, if grudgingly, you have to admit that
  > when you read David's post, you GET the poem, you GET the intensity,
  > you access it organically...<

  There is no reason to trouble to read Jorie Graham, according to this
  view's own reasoning. There is nothing TO "get"; there is no
  "intensity" at all; there is nothing to "access organically" (ah, how
  I long for your "input" about the sunset!) because it is at the other
  end of the spectrum, admittedly in this very logic, from art.

  > ... Innocence is the great driver of
  > modernism, but innocence is not ignorance, but rather a certain
  > informed shrugging off of convention and expectations, ...

  By the time we get to Jorie Graham there is nothing to "shrug off"
  left of convention or expectation -- it's all been done. Hers is a
  boring repetition of an unsound view, the notion that by claiming it
  is impossible to say anything important or significant one says
  something important and signficant: it is like claiming that the more
  psychopathic one is the saner one is, and it is false and dangerous.

  > ... just as naivete
  > has been the antidote for hidebound academism, a means to insight that
  > connects to a reader's most primal, universal self. That's the theory,
  > I think: that our primal selves are connected across forms and space,
  > and carry us back before the Tower of Babel and all the cultural
  > specifics that separate us.<

  But it is precisely hidebound academism that has embraced and
  preserved and tried to justify the Jorie Grahams of the world, and
  those who hold this view that the crazier one is the saner one is. If
  it is really an important social and artistic goal to connect our
  primal selves, why do those who hold this view own cars, go to
  doctors, work at jobs, or even write? Why don't those folks simply
  gather in primitive cave-dwelling bands and howl at the moon?

  Marcus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/329d67a4/attachment.html>

From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Feb  6 13:13:08 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:13:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <009c01c3ecd8$d06d2210$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <BC493553.5FF3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I dunno, Tad. I don?t think poets are in the business of providing ink blots
onto which readers can project their own needs and interests. Rather, I
think poets make interesting connections between images and ideas that
surprise and gratify the reader by, paradoxically, raising to consciousness
what they already knew at some level or illustrating an experience in an
interesting new way.  Joan Houlihan interviewed me recently for her online
journal Perihelion and we talked at some length about this very situation.
When the interview comes out (next month, I think), I?ll post a link.

Paul


on 2/6/04 11:44 AM, TheOldMole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> Paul - doesn't this describe all poetry? The only issue is how large we can
> make the gaps and still have some connection between the image put on the page
> and the image projected by the viewing mind.
>  
> Jorie goes too far for me. Ashbery doesn't. But I think I'd rather wrestle
> with Jorie, fail, and ultimately be left unsatisfied, than read a poet who
> puts down the exact image that I'm supposed to project.
>  
> Tad
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Lake <mailto:paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 10:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
>> 
>> on 2/5/04 3:57 PM, FanwoodJEL at aol.com at FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>> In a message dated 2/5/2004 4:43:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:
>>>> In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's
>>>> increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to
>>>> shape them into anything.
>>>> Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds and ends*
>>>> seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is
>>>> emphatically not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but
>>>> is exactly shape. The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and
>>>> they have their own coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn
>>>> (relearn) how to look? Of course, I do recognize that I'm talking to
>>>> myself. Alas. I'll stop now.
>>>>  
>>>> Jeffrey Levine
>>>> 
>> 
>> I?m with Sam on this one, Jeffrey. If there are shapes in Jorie Graham?s
>> verse, they?re the shapes one sees in ink blots?shapes projected by the
>> viewing mind.   
>> 
>> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/2423a6b4/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb  6 16:00:51 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:00:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
References: <20040205161537.45306.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> <00aa01c3ecc6$09e22080$570c9942@Helen> <001101c3eccf$dec39190$8a737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <009801c3ecd8$1cb45fe0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <004401c3ecf4$4e279c60$fe737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Opps, I meant the first interpretation...

      Etymology: French buste, from Italian busto, from Latin bustum tomb
      1 : a sculptured representation of the upper part of the human figure
including the head and neck and usually part of the shoulders and breast
      2 : the upper part of the human torso between neck and waist;
especially : the breasts of a woman


from dear old webster.


From: "TheOldMole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>


> I have much the same problem, but it doesn't have to be Schiller's.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 11:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
>
>
> > And as soon as Schiller died, Goethe couldn't compose a line if he did
not
> > have Schiller's bust close.
> >
> > From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >
> >
> > > Schiller kept an apple core in his desk.
> > >
> > > ???
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jeff Newberry" <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:15 AM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
> > >
> > >
> > > > Howdy New-Poetry Listers,
> > > >
> > > > The below came from a colleague on a separate
> > > > listserve.  Anybody got any dirt?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks to all responses,
> > > >
> > > > Jeff Newberry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Dear all,
> > > > >
> > > > >The following query comes from a colleague of mine at
> > > > Kingston, Meg Jensen
> > > > >Jensen:
> > > > >
> > > > >"Dear Colleagues,
> > > > >
> > > > >I would like to draw on your collective trivial
> > > > knowledge for a lecture
> > > > >in my Writers on Writing module.  What I am looking
> > > > for is anecdoctal
> > > > >tales of how famous writers have written - what
> > > > specific techniques or
> > > > >totemic rituals they used.  Hemingway wrote standing
> > > > up (sometimes).
> > > > >John Cheever in his underwear - that kind of thing.
> > > > There need be no
> > > > >evidence - myths will do....
> > > > >
> > > > >I await your responses most eagerly...."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 43 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/3c7fc188/attachment.gif>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 16:07:15 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:07:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <BC493553.5FF3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAELIIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-StoryNo need for the link, Paul. I think you've
stated what you think all poets
are in the business of doing quite succinctly here. Nuff said.

Hal
  I dunno, Tad. I don?t think poets are in the business of providing ink
blots onto which readers can project their own needs and interests. Rather,
I think poets make interesting connections between images and ideas that
surprise and gratify the reader by, paradoxically, raising to consciousness
what they already knew at some level or illustrating an experience in an
interesting new way.  Joan Houlihan interviewed me recently for her online
journal Perihelion and we talked at some length about this very situation.
When the interview comes out (next month, I think), I?ll post a link.

  Paul


  on 2/6/04 11:44 AM, TheOldMole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:


    Paul - doesn't this describe all poetry? The only issue is how large we
can make the gaps and still have some connection between the image put on
the page and the image projected by the viewing mind.

    Jorie goes too far for me. Ashbery doesn't. But I think I'd rather
wrestle with Jorie, fail, and ultimately be left unsatisfied, than read a
poet who puts down the exact image that I'm supposed to project.

    Tad
    ----- Original Message -----

      From: Paul Lake <mailto:paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 10:41 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story

      on 2/5/04 3:57 PM, FanwoodJEL at aol.com at FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:


        In a message dated 2/5/2004 4:43:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

          In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me
that she's increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't
bothered to shape them into anything.
          Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds
and ends* seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is
emphatically not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but
is exactly shape. The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and
they have their own coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn
(relearn) how to look? Of course, I do recognize that I'm talking to myself.
Alas. I'll stop now.

          Jeffrey Levine



      I?m with Sam on this one, Jeffrey. If there are shapes in Jorie Graham
?s verse, they?re the shapes one sees in ink blots?shapes projected by the
viewing mind.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/bcb1f61e/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 16:16:05 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:16:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers' Odd Habits
Message-ID: <1c6.14d5ee69.2d555e15@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/6/2004 4:02:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
Opps, I meant the first interpretation...

      Etymology: French buste, from Italian busto, from Latin bustum tomb
      1 : a sculptured representation of the upper part of the human figure
including the head and neck and usually part of the shoulders and breast
      2 : the upper part of the human torso between neck and waist;
especially : the breasts of a woman


from dear old webster.
Webester was just being modest.

Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/686829d6/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 16:18:34 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:18:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <1ca.19041379.2d555eaa@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/6/04 2:12:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
elemenope at icubed.com writes:

> Let one poet on this list produce a better poem in the same style. 
>  We don't need zillions of other poets from which to choose, just one 
>  from this list.
>  
>  My bet is that there isn't one.  Certainly, not one from this gaggle 
>  of guys dissing the chick.
>  
>  Moi?  I can put my money where my mouth is.  I can produce a poem in 
>  the same style post haste. 
Richard, this is a ridiculous challenge...and how is it praise to the poet
to say you can produce a knock-off (based solely on style) posthaste?
Finnegan


From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 16:51:31 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:51:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <a8.27df919b.2d556663@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/6/2004 4:20:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:
Richard, this is a ridiculous challenge...and how is it praise to the poet
to say you can produce a knock-off (based solely on style) posthaste?
Finnegan
Wait a minute. My friend here, M. Fermat, has an elegant proof that he can do 
it. Started writing it on a bar napkin, but didn't have time to finish.

Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/d03800ca/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 17:27:28 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:27:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <12d.3a8b8b37.2d556ed0@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/6/04 2:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:

>  But anyway, the sort of poetry we're talking about (well, I'm talking 
>  about), is a huge, stinking, dead horse many are compelled to kick. And 
you 
>  correctly suggest that the central bone of fragmentation is that it 
demands 
> something 
>  (something more) from the reader: yop. Guilty. It asks the reader to spend 
>  some time, to consider what's on the page critically, to test that against 
> some 
>  kind of an intellectual or emotional context -- in short, to get involved. 
>  
>  But, forgive, it seems to me that you're barking up the wrong tree. If one 
> is 
>  so fixed on what a poem is supposed to be, how can one possibly pay 
> attention 
>  to what it is. If you're stuck on a travel-bureau image of the 
Renaissance, 
>  how can you get past it. Obviously -- obviously -- if one condemns a 
>  contemporary form based on a value system that recognizes only a certain 
> kind of literal 
>  representation and traditional workmanship -- the limitations many seem to 
>  want to impose on poetry -- one overlooks the fact that these very values 
>  reflect a world quite distant from our own. 
>  
>  A fragmented poetry struggles with modern concerns. Why wouldn't its 
> language 
>  be a complex and layered as its worldview? Our thinking has been 
profoundly 
>  transformed since the 16th century, in every way. Freudian psychology was 
> the 
>  catalytic of modernism, as were the theory of relativity and practice of 
>  photography, not to mention two world wars, the advent of mass 
communication,
>  the 
>  possibility of nuclear holocaust. Ours is not a time that will accept the 
> tidy 
>  verities of an opaque, one-point perspective, limited in time and space. 
The 
> 
>  real paucity of culture would be to attempt it. Fragmented poetry is a 
> dialogue 
>  with the past, and thank heavens for that. The universal truth of 
creativity 
> 
>  (pardon the presumptuousness -- though I suppose that plea should have 
gone 
>  front and center), is that ideas strive for life, just as artists strive 
to 
>  midwife them into comprehensible flesh. This labor is at the heart of 
what's 
> new. 
>  Our art is its contentious offspring. 
>  
>  If fragmented poetry isn't pretty, isn't peaceful, or doesn't go with the 
>  furniture; if it doesn't happen to suit some inherited standard of 
> aristocratic 
>  propriety, then maybe that's just too bad. Our children grow up and find 
> their 
>  own way: some of them will flop and some will take our breath away. The 
>  inevitability of that fact is both a wonderful mystery and the only real 
> certainty 
>  in life, or in art. 
>  
Jeffrey, you make some good points but I take issue with some
of your assumptions (or things I'm hearing as underlying your
argument). First, the "stinking dead horse": If that is poetry before
the more fragmented style came into fashion, then you beg a question
whether good poetry was ever easy to understand, was ever
all that clear in the first place. How much ink has been split, 
critically, on the "simplest" of poems? And a more 
straightforward and narratively grounded poem may be more 
complex than the radically fragmented and narratively ungrounded 
poem. It may offer more questions and mysteries and mental 
provocations than the poem that merely scintillates with its 
many seemingly disjunctive elements. If we call a narratively 
grounded poem a tapestry, then we would be doing it a disservice 
as readers if we said, "Oh, I see...what a lovely scene," and turned 
away. No, we'd have to turn it over and inspect the threads, the 
weave, the dyes in the threads. But I'm not telling you anything 
you don't know.

Second, as William James put it, the human mind is not
a mirror floating in space, so if one's worldview, or if society itself,
is fragmented, there is no reason that one's poetry must mirror
that disarrayed image. I have no problem with fragmentation. I already
declared that I'm deeply attracted to much of JG's poetry, but
for me there is no reason to value fragmentation over integration 
(or whatever descriptive term one might use as opposite).  
There is as much reason to piece together the fragments into 
some kind of coherent whole, one which will always show its
cracks and fissures, as there is to shine a light that creatively 
refracts off those fragments. I think there is a possibility that 
some poets use the fragmented style because they have nothing 
to say to us. The style may mask their lack. Others are using the 
style because it fits what they're trying to express. I'm giving Jorie 
the credit for the latter in most cases.
Finnegan
PS: Jeffrey lives close by to me, but he never comes over to talk
poetry. 


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 17:36:07 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:36:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <a8.27df919b.2d556663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c3ed01$9cbe6720$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

How could you tell?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 4:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


  In a message dated 2/6/2004 4:20:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes:
    Richard, this is a ridiculous challenge...and how is it praise to the poet
    to say you can produce a knock-off (based solely on style) posthaste?
    Finnegan
  Wait a minute. My friend here, M. Fermat, has an elegant proof that he can do it. Started writing it on a bar napkin, but didn't have time to finish.

  Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/32b05203/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Fri Feb  6 17:40:59 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 23:40:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie + Retallack
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEKPIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <00c801c3ece4$620f14c0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <00cc01c3ed02$4b3d4550$fe737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

I don't dislike the idea of scraping off the wall. One needs a lot of intuition when reviewing texts like the one mentioned. And trust his/her own, then write. Whatever is written will usually be denied by the Author, as a mechanism of self-defense. /// Didn't help much with that _parallel tradition_ don't know anything of it.

  From: TheOldMole 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 7:53 PM


  That's a phrase that got kicked around the predecessor to this list -- I think it may have been Ron Silliman's phrase -- help me out here, Ron? -- and it meant, roughly, the tradition that includes LangPo, but is not restricted to it.


    From: Halvard Johnson 
    Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:24 PM


    Interesting, Tad. But what's the Parallel Tradition? (I know what "a parallel tradition" might mean,
    and Google didn't help.)

    Hal
      As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once (because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I tried as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own terms.

      I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html

      I can't post it here because it has typographical stuff that wouldn't reproduce.

      Tad
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/faacdf61/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 17:53:43 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:53:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <12d.3a8b8b37.2d556ed0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006401c3ed04$12948040$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Why is today's world more fragmented than at any other time?

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


> In a message dated 2/6/04 2:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:
>
> >  But anyway, the sort of poetry we're talking about (well, I'm talking
> >  about), is a huge, stinking, dead horse many are compelled to kick. And
> you
> >  correctly suggest that the central bone of fragmentation is that it
> demands
> > something
> >  (something more) from the reader: yop. Guilty. It asks the reader to
spend
> >  some time, to consider what's on the page critically, to test that
against
> > some
> >  kind of an intellectual or emotional context -- in short, to get
involved.
> >
> >  But, forgive, it seems to me that you're barking up the wrong tree. If
one
> > is
> >  so fixed on what a poem is supposed to be, how can one possibly pay
> > attention
> >  to what it is. If you're stuck on a travel-bureau image of the
> Renaissance,
> >  how can you get past it. Obviously -- obviously -- if one condemns a
> >  contemporary form based on a value system that recognizes only a
certain
> > kind of literal
> >  representation and traditional workmanship -- the limitations many seem
to
> >  want to impose on poetry -- one overlooks the fact that these very
values
> >  reflect a world quite distant from our own.
> >
> >  A fragmented poetry struggles with modern concerns. Why wouldn't its
> > language
> >  be a complex and layered as its worldview? Our thinking has been
> profoundly
> >  transformed since the 16th century, in every way. Freudian psychology
was
> > the
> >  catalytic of modernism, as were the theory of relativity and practice
of
> >  photography, not to mention two world wars, the advent of mass
> communication,
> >  the
> >  possibility of nuclear holocaust. Ours is not a time that will accept
the
> > tidy
> >  verities of an opaque, one-point perspective, limited in time and
space.
> The
> >
> >  real paucity of culture would be to attempt it. Fragmented poetry is a
> > dialogue
> >  with the past, and thank heavens for that. The universal truth of
> creativity
> >
> >  (pardon the presumptuousness -- though I suppose that plea should have
> gone
> >  front and center), is that ideas strive for life, just as artists
strive
> to
> >  midwife them into comprehensible flesh. This labor is at the heart of
> what's
> > new.
> >  Our art is its contentious offspring.
> >
> >  If fragmented poetry isn't pretty, isn't peaceful, or doesn't go with
the
> >  furniture; if it doesn't happen to suit some inherited standard of
> > aristocratic
> >  propriety, then maybe that's just too bad. Our children grow up and
find
> > their
> >  own way: some of them will flop and some will take our breath away. The
> >  inevitability of that fact is both a wonderful mystery and the only
real
> > certainty
> >  in life, or in art.
> >
> Jeffrey, you make some good points but I take issue with some
> of your assumptions (or things I'm hearing as underlying your
> argument). First, the "stinking dead horse": If that is poetry before
> the more fragmented style came into fashion, then you beg a question
> whether good poetry was ever easy to understand, was ever
> all that clear in the first place. How much ink has been split,
> critically, on the "simplest" of poems? And a more
> straightforward and narratively grounded poem may be more
> complex than the radically fragmented and narratively ungrounded
> poem. It may offer more questions and mysteries and mental
> provocations than the poem that merely scintillates with its
> many seemingly disjunctive elements. If we call a narratively
> grounded poem a tapestry, then we would be doing it a disservice
> as readers if we said, "Oh, I see...what a lovely scene," and turned
> away. No, we'd have to turn it over and inspect the threads, the
> weave, the dyes in the threads. But I'm not telling you anything
> you don't know.
>
> Second, as William James put it, the human mind is not
> a mirror floating in space, so if one's worldview, or if society itself,
> is fragmented, there is no reason that one's poetry must mirror
> that disarrayed image. I have no problem with fragmentation. I already
> declared that I'm deeply attracted to much of JG's poetry, but
> for me there is no reason to value fragmentation over integration
> (or whatever descriptive term one might use as opposite).
> There is as much reason to piece together the fragments into
> some kind of coherent whole, one which will always show its
> cracks and fissures, as there is to shine a light that creatively
> refracts off those fragments. I think there is a possibility that
> some poets use the fragmented style because they have nothing
> to say to us. The style may mask their lack. Others are using the
> style because it fits what they're trying to express. I'm giving Jorie
> the credit for the latter in most cases.
> Finnegan
> PS: Jeffrey lives close by to me, but he never comes over to talk
> poetry.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 18:03:23 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:03:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] parallel tradition
References: <40235825.12774.5E5AE3@localhost> <00b601c3ece5$a7a9b9d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <008401c3ed05$6c3f6820$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Here are some references.


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  6 18:03:03 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:03:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1D2@ariel.ripon.edu> <00c901c3ece4$63ed71b0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <022d01c3ed05$6332d140$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

SNIP to:

>That's my problem with Bob Grumman's essay on MNMLST POETRY (
> http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm ) -- an essay I like a
> lot, and have assigned to my classes. At a certain point -- like his
> evaluating of the Geof Huth poem -- the evaluation seems so arbitrary,
like
> those crossword puzzle contests they used to have in the Daily News, where
> they'd explain to you why the right answer was POSH not PUSH.

A difference is that I don't advance my interpretation--or appreciation (not
"evaluation")--as THE right answer but use it to demonstrate that A right
answer is possible.  Sometimes my findings about a poem are strained, or
seem strained because I fail to describe them well, but they are all
supported by the texts--and by connections to similar texts from the same
school.  No doubt one needs to experience many Geof Huth kinds of poems to
be able to feel/take in what I do.  Ditto with poems like Jorie Graham's.

I'm surprised at Tad's reaction to my interpretation of  Geof Huth's, "E
CHOIC E."  I consider it one of my very best analyses, and just about wholly
unstrained.

Nonetheless, thanks, Tad, for the continuing publicity!

--Bob G.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb  6 18:09:04 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:09:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] How Would Jorie Scorie?
Message-ID: <79.2222577c.2d557890@cs.com>

    
This just in:


Bizarre Revelation About the New SAT The SAT, a necessary rite of passage for 
every college-bound student, will include a timed writing test beginning in 
March 2005. Good thing William Shakespeare isn't trying to gain admission to 
one of our nation's elite, ivy-covered colleges so he could major in English. He 
would probably be rejected based on his SAT writing score. 


Using the SAT's actual grading criteria for the essay, which include 
development of ideas, supporting examples, organization, word choice, and sentence 
structure, the test preparation pros at The Princeton Review "graded" the famous 
"All the world's a stage" passage from Shakespeare's "As You Like It." Out of 
one to six points with six being the highest possible score, the Bard gets a 
measly two points. 


Shakespeare is in good company. The scathing report, which will be published 
in the March issue of the Atlantic Monthly, notes that Ernest Hemingway ("A 
Farewell to Arms," "The Sun Also Rise") scored a three, while Gertrude Stein 
("The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas") got a one. Net net: The Princeton Review 
quips that Shakespeare would not test out of freshman English and Stein would 
have to take a remedial class. 


But not everyone flunked! When a section from the infamous manifesto written 
by Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was analyzed on the SAT grading scale, it received 
a perfect six points because it followed the highly formulaic requirements 
detailed by the writing test's creators. Princeton Review founder John Katzman 
says this experiment proves the College Board's grading standards for writing 
reward students for following rules rather than for their creativity. 




    
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/036bc357/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Feb  6 18:32:35 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:32:35 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <18e.255f32bd.2d557e13@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/6/2004 4:58:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
> 
> Why is today's world more fragmented than at any other time?

This is a good point.  I think one could argue that it's actually much more 
cohesive in many ways.  Still, I was doing some work on Donald Barthelme today 
and came across his quote that collage was the representative modernist 
form--a judgment that's hard to argue with.  But even Donne was complaining that the 
world was "all in pieces, all coherence gone" a long, long time ago.

I'm no great fan of the cantos, but Pound's fragments have always struck me 
as more compelling that those by Graham posted here.  Or tantalizing may be a 
better word.  But who knows?  Maybe if Graham attains a comparable rep to Ol' 
Ez (doubtful) readers in the future will feel compelled to make the 
connections.

This conversation, while raising interesting issues, strikes me as ultimately 
dead-end.  Those who prefer a world and art in pieces--what used to be called 
"the fallacy of imitative form"--and those who want their art cooked and 
served elegantly will rarely find any common ground.

As for Ashbery, remember that he has tried out more different styles than his 
current manner--after Self-Portrait--might indicate.  Go back to "Europe" in 
the old Leary/Kelly A Controversy of Poets for some uber-fragmentation. And 
damned entertaining too!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/78fc0b25/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Feb  6 18:32:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:32:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <12d.3a8b8b37.2d556ed0@aol.com> <006401c3ed04$12948040$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <026101c3ed09$8edb9670$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Why is today's world more fragmented than at any other time?

It's probably less fragmented--but the fragments are much more visible
because of radio/tv/jet planes, etc.

 --Bob G.




From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 19:08:01 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:08:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <12d.3a8b8b37.2d556ed0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEMDIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    I think there is a possibility that 
{    some poets use the fragmented style because they have nothing 
{    to say to us. The style may mask their lack. Others are using the 
{    style because it fits what they're trying to express. I'm giving Jorie 
{    the credit for the latter in most cases.
{    Finnegan

Many poets through the ages have written poems in conventional
modes on conventional themes--also because they had "nothing to 
say"? Since when has "having something to say" (whatever that
means) been the touchstone?

Hal         "Disorder is merely the order you
               are not looking for."
                                   --Henri Bergson
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardhave



From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 19:08:02 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:08:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <18e.255f32bd.2d557e13@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEMDIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

E.g., TV audiences become more fragmented as the number of
channels increases. Populaces become more fragmented as
dominating majorities are displaced or broken up (e.g. Yugoslavia,
USSR, even US in some ways). Readerships are broken up as
more and more books are available (think of the days when the
only ones to get a good read were Shakespeare, Milton, Bunyan,
and, of course, God). Need more?

Hal
    Why is today's world more fragmented than at any other time?


  This is a good point.  I think one could argue that it's actually much
more cohesive in many ways.  Still, I was doing some work on Donald
Barthelme today and came across his quote that collage was the
representative modernist form--a judgment that's hard to argue with.  But
even Donne was complaining that the world was "all in pieces, all coherence
gone" a long, long time ago.

  I'm no great fan of the cantos, but Pound's fragments have always struck
me as more compelling that those by Graham posted here.  Or tantalizing may
be a better word.  But who knows?  Maybe if Graham attains a comparable rep
to Ol' Ez (doubtful) readers in the future will feel compelled to make the
connections.

  This conversation, while raising interesting issues, strikes me as
ultimately dead-end.  Those who prefer a world and art in pieces--what used
to be called "the fallacy of imitative form"--and those who want their art
cooked and served elegantly will rarely find any common ground.

  As for Ashbery, remember that he has tried out more different styles than
his current manner--after Self-Portrait--might indicate.  Go back to
"Europe" in the old Leary/Kelly A Controversy of Poets for some
uber-fragmentation. And damned entertaining too!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/e5f175ca/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Feb  6 19:19:01 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:19:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <BC493553.5FF3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00c201c3ed0f$fd0213d0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-StoryPaul - and there's no agreement as to what these terms mean, or where the interesting connections stop being interesting connections and become ink blots.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story


  I dunno, Tad. I don't think poets are in the business of providing ink blots onto which readers can project their own needs and interests. Rather, I think poets make interesting connections between images and ideas that surprise and gratify the reader by, paradoxically, raising to consciousness what they already knew at some level or illustrating an experience in an interesting new way.  Joan Houlihan interviewed me recently for her online journal Perihelion and we talked at some length about this very situation. When the interview comes out (next month, I think), I'll post a link.

  Paul


  on 2/6/04 11:44 AM, TheOldMole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:


    Paul - doesn't this describe all poetry? The only issue is how large we can make the gaps and still have some connection between the image put on the page and the image projected by the viewing mind.

    Jorie goes too far for me. Ashbery doesn't. But I think I'd rather wrestle with Jorie, fail, and ultimately be left unsatisfied, than read a poet who puts down the exact image that I'm supposed to project.

    Tad
    ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Paul Lake <mailto:paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>  
      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
      Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 10:41 AM
      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story

      on 2/5/04 3:57 PM, FanwoodJEL at aol.com at FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:


        In a message dated 2/5/2004 4:43:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

          In the case of Graham, Jorie that is, not David, it seems to me that she's increasingly gathered together these odds and ends but hasn't bothered to shape them into anything.
          Not odds and ends, but the heart of things, the very pulse. *Odds and ends* seems undeservedly reductive, dismissive, or both. The point is emphatically not *fascination* with process, nor the process itself -- but is exactly shape. The shape is there, or rather, the shapes are there, and they have their own coherence. Is it possible that one needs to learn (relearn) how to look? Of course, I do recognize that I'm talking to myself. Alas. I'll stop now.
           
          Jeffrey Levine



      I'm with Sam on this one, Jeffrey. If there are shapes in Jorie Graham's verse, they're the shapes one sees in ink blots-shapes projected by the viewing mind.    



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/441b3ec2/attachment.html>

From elemenope at icubed.com  Fri Feb  6 10:57:34 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 23:57:34 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Graham and the "ridiculous challenge" (Finnegan)
In-Reply-To: <200402062333.i16NX6bk020293@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200402062333.i16NX6bk020293@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc495d4d0610@[204.215.201.127]>

My poem preexists Graham's. (Or, better, materialized oblivious to 
Graham's.)  It has been published and is accessible by anyone who 
wants to read and see if it meets any of the criteria Graham's poem 
proposes by presenting intuition incarnated in words.  But your 
riposte to me is ridiculous because poetry contests have been held 
from time immemorial.  There are haiku contests, sonnet contests, 
limrick contests, rap contests; what are you talking about, that this 
is a ridiculous challenge?  It's a challenge. In _Amadeus_, Mozart 
takes a motif of Salieri's and in front of him and the Emperor, plays 
it on the keyboard, plays it again in another way, and then turns it 
into something that is called "music."

You guys are claiming that Jorie Graham hasn't written poetry here 
but you don't do what Mozart did.  You complain about her and her 
poem.  Or, curse it and her.
Talk about being ridiculous.  Jorie Graham is to Lott as Mozart is to 
Salieri, except Salieri is a better musician than Lott is a poet.

Write your own poem in this fragmented style.  It seems to me that if 
you are a real poet, like Lott, you could just snap one of these off 
in your own idiom with your own concerns.  Or, if you can't project 
(or introject) your psyche as Jorie Graham has the ability to do, you 
certainly can create a work that would address the central concerns 
her poem addresses: anguish, as human seed, anguish, as cosmic atom, 
and how one becomes the other.

Oh, and one more thing, you, Finnegan, or this genius of 
compassionate soul, our widely celebrated bully fulminator 
toilet-bowl poet, Lott, should be able to make your poem do what mine 
does (I don't back off, I sell my poem, but I won't give it up for 
crucifixion by such a one as Lott who has never demonstrated the 
motive impulse to move the heart/mind so inwardly as Graham at least 
attempts.  He doesn't even attempt.  He merely, lowly, shows jealous 
contempt for a sensitivity he simply doesn't possess.) what my poem, 
also, does as does Graham's, in the immortal words of Northrop Frye:

"Poetry is a *disinterested* use of words; it does not address a 
reader directly.............................The artist, as John 
Stuart Mill saw in a wonderful flash of critical insight, is not 
heard but overheard.  The axiom of criticism must be, not that the 
poet does not know what he is talking about, but that he cannot talk 
about what he knows."

(Anatomy of Criticism)

I submit that Jorie Graham never ever does not write in the very 
modality Frye has observed as the sine qua non of poetry.  Isadora 
Duncan danced in much the same way.


Richard Dillon

ELEMENOPE Productions





>
>   In a message dated 2/6/2004 4:20:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
>JforJames at aol.com writes:
>     Richard, this is a ridiculous challenge...and how is it praise to =
>the poet
>     to say you can produce a knock-off (based solely on style) =
>posthaste?
>     Finnegan
>   Wait a minute. My friend here, M. Fermat, has an elegant proof that he =
>can do it. Started writing it on a bar napkin, but didn't have time to =
>finish.
>
>   Jeffrey

-- 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040206/3c7c2ed7/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 06:45:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 06:45:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Graham and the "ridiculous challenge" (Finnegan)
References: <200402062333.i16NX6bk020293@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc495d4d0610@[204.215.201.127]>
Message-ID: <00a801c3ed6f$d728bd70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Graham and the "ridiculous challenge" (Finnegan)

Richard, whatever the value of Jorie Graham's poetry, your challenge is ridiculous.  I can't hit a baseball to save my life.  Does that disqualify me from calling a major league baseball player whose batting avery is .187 a lousy hitter?

Another problem is that if Chris did write some jump-cut poem like Graham's, who is to judge whether or not it equals or betters hers?

I think better of Graham's poetry than Chris does, but don't think as well of it as you do, although I am quick to admit that I haven't read enough of it, or enough of it with care.  Sometime, I may take up your challenge.  Or maybe I'll do something much more to the point: carefully analyze the Graham poem--which you should do if you want to present an intelligent case for its merits.

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/000bef8b/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 08:03:11 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:03:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Challenge Taken
References: <200402062333.i16NX6bk020293@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc495d4d0610@[204.215.201.127]> <00a801c3ed6f$d728bd70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <010101c3ed7a$bec7bd20$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Graham and the "ridiculous challenge" (Finnegan)

quotients without atoms span the court inform someone's music 

take the fifth person singular                              unfiled rain 

only that royal court              or                moonlit partial answers

the product                                                    disperse palaces 

is there a name in long division for the product of the divisor and sunlight?

May is the fifth planet from the sun                               more known to the Aztecs

sine comes in later                          a pretext, "although," remains to be heard from

vain loss of Latin for deriving any root                 spring is                  can anything?



qua non refrains to be seen                 slow Aztecs                       slow remainders

multiply orbits without naming them                                                or dividing

formalize the concern                sine concern                                so long

it's been so (long) as 



as it makes                                    Aztecs had no money for "although"



a fifth day's coloring abides the length of separation           few abide "although"


reach it         span it                                         blending "although" and "and"

regardless of the sun's owner, the sun's ownership

averbal roots notwithstanding the quest                            sundrips            unrooted wondering

five places beyond the decimal, excellence                                       Pythagorus so much

delinquent bonds hem the sun



(leeway?)                        so long as the harvest                               rude missives



none minions or administrators                                Grant the effect of the dance on "although"



only that                                     do not talk



long for made money                         palaver                                 spend



a ballet two places left of the decimal point                                      multiplicands of crows

the drowse toward some inevitably disappointing remainder on the counter

                                                          block nothing

plangent fortuities in airtight containers                             the untaught sunlight



palomino but not risque--yet                 the formaldehyde on low                     the moon's palaver



to wrench or plumb                 to name the product unwillfully                     a commerce



a so long                           or

a so long as



COMMENTS

I consider this as good as the Jorie Graham excerpt and feel I could continue it indefinitely and possibly will.  I enjoyed doing it but don't think much of it--as a final product--because I found it too easy to do.  But I believe there are quite a few poems in the mix.  The kind of free association I did in composing it is the way I compose most of my omnilexical (all-words) poems, but as a starting point, nothing more.

(Note: the spacing and margins are as in the Graham poem, but my formatting might be messed up in transmission.)



--Bob G.


















-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/76b35069/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sat Feb  7 08:44:33 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:44:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <2D979504.4E59E7D5.0B0E6811@aol.com>

Finnegan,
No, ack, no, I didn't mean to imply that any other poety, or all linear (non-fragmented) poetry, is a stinking dead horse. I was being ironic about fragmentation. I meant it's the fragmented stuff people like to kick as if it were a dead and rotting animal. I am polymorphous perverse in my poetic tastes, and certainly don't write like JG myself -- couldn't -- nor for that matter has Tupelo Press (whose aesthetic is, well, mine)  published much fragmented -- or even abstract -- poetry.  If you take a look at Poetry Daily today, you'll see we even like the prose poem (and have, in fact, published a whole anthology of it).  No, what I mean to say is that I see no reason to kick JG's poetry, or fragmented poetry in general, simply because it is what it is. So, by no means do I value fragmentation over representation. In the right hands, I can be taken by either.  And sure, narratively-grounded poems can be wonderfuly complex -- in every respect -- can even be layered, multi-voiced, but yes, even without, shines (as you say) *a light that creatively refracts thos fragments*.  Refraction . . . a nice way of thinking about what poetry is, and something I'll need to think about as I take some students to Ireland this summer to read Yeats and Joyce.
Sure, some poets doubtless adopt a fragmented style because they have nothing to say, or to obscure what they have to say, or because they haven't yet learned how to say what they have to say, or because they've been taught that this is how you say it. But what form is not capable of housing a misuse, or bad use? Isn't this the sort of argument that free versers hear from formalists, and just the sort of argment that free versers have historically leveled back at formalists? Anyway, I'm agreeing with you (I think) that we also want very much to know about poetry's austere and lonely offices.
Jeffrey
ps, bake the cookies MondayIn a message dated 2/6/2004 5:27:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 2/6/04 2:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, >FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:>>> ?But anyway, the sort of poetry we're talking about (well, I'm talking >> ?about), is a huge, stinking, dead horse many are compelled to kick. And >you >> ?correctly suggest that the central bone of fragmentation is that it >demands >> something >> ?(something more) from the reader: yop. Guilty. It asks the reader to spend >> ?some time, to consider what's on the page critically, to test that against >> some >> ?kind of an intellectual or emotional context -- in short, to get involved. >> ?>> ?But, forgive, it seems to me that you're barking up the wrong tree. If one >> is >> ?so fixed on what a poem is supposed to be, how can one possibly pay >> attention >> ?to what it is. If you're stuck on a travel-bureau image of the >Renaissance, >> ?how can you get past it. Obviously -- obviously -- if one condemns a >> ?contemporary form based on a value system that recognizes only a certain >> kind of literal >> ?representation and traditional workmanship -- the limitations many seem to >> ?want to impose on poetry -- one overlooks the fact that these very values >> ?reflect a world quite distant from our own. >> ?>> ?A fragmented poetry struggles with modern concerns. Why wouldn't its >> language >> ?be a complex and layered as its worldview? Our thinking has been >profoundly >> ?transformed since the 16th century, in every way. Freudian psychology was >> the >> ?catalytic of modernism, as were the theory of relativity and practice of >> ?photography, not to mention two world wars, the advent of mass >communication,>> ?the >> ?possibility of nuclear holocaust. Ours is not a time that will accept the >> tidy >> ?verities of an opaque, one-point perspective, limited in time and space. >The >> >> ?real paucity of culture would be to attempt it. Fragmented poetry is a >> dialogue >> ?with the past, and thank heavens for that. The universal truth of >creativity >> >> ?(pardon the presumptuousness -- though I suppose that plea should have >gone >> ?front and center), is that ideas strive for life, just as artists strive >to >> ?midwife them into comprehensible flesh. This labor is at the heart of >what's >> new. >> ?Our art is its contentious offspring. >> ?>> ?If fragmented poetry isn't pretty, isn't peaceful, or doesn't go with the >> ?furniture; if it doesn't happen to suit some inherited standard of >> aristocratic >> ?propriety, then maybe that's just too bad. Our children grow up and find >> their >> ?own way: some of them will flop and some will take our breath away. The >> ?inevitability of that fact is both a wonderful mystery and the only real >> certainty >> ?in life, or in art. >> ?>Jeffrey, you make some good points but I take issue with some>of your assumptions (or things I'm hearing as underlying your>argument). First, the "stinking dead horse": If that is poetry before>the more fragmented style came into fashion, then you beg a question>whether good poetry was ever easy to understand, was ever>all that clear in the first place. How much ink has been split, >critically, on the "simplest" of poems? And a more >straightforward and narratively grounded poem may be more >complex than the radically fragmented and narratively ungrounded >poem. It may offer more questions and mysteries and mental >provocations than the poem that merely scintillates with its >many seemingly disjunctive elements. If we call a narratively >grounded poem a tapestry, then we would be doing it a disservice >as readers if we said, "Oh, I see...what a lovely scene," and turned >away. No, we'd have to turn it over and inspect the threads, the >weave, the dyes in the threads. But I'm not telling you anything >you don't know.>>Second, as William James put it, the human mind is not>a mirror floating in space, so if one's worldview, or if society itself,>is fragmented, there is no reason that one's poetry must mirror>that disarrayed image. I have no problem with fragmentation. I already>declared that I'm deeply attracted to much of JG's poetry, but>for me there is no reason to value fragmentation over integration >(or whatever descriptive term one might use as opposite). ?>There is as much reason to piece together the fragments into >some kind of coherent whole, one which will always show its>cracks and fissures, as there is to shine a light that creatively >refracts off those fragments. I think there is a possibility that >some poets use the fragmented style because they have nothing >to say to us. The style may mask their lack. Others are using the >style because it fits what they're trying to express. I'm giving Jorie >the credit for the latter in most cases.>Finnegan>PS: Jeffrey lives close by to me, but he never comes over to talk>poetry. >_______________________________________________>New-Poetry mailing list>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 09:28:16 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:28:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Challenge Taken
References: <200402062333.i16NX6bk020293@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc495d4d0610@[204.215.201.127]> <00a801c3ed6f$d728bd70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <010101c3ed7a$bec7bd20$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <013701c3ed86$a191bfb0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Graham and the "ridiculous challenge" (Finnegan)small correction made

  quotients without atoms span the court         inform someone's music 

  take the fifth person singular                              unfiled rain 

  only that royal court              or                moonlit partial answers

  the product                                                    disperse palaces 

  is there a name in long division for the product of the divisor and sunlight?

  May is the fifth planet from the sun                               more known to the Aztecs

  sine comes in later                          a pretext, "although," remains to be heard from

  vain loss of Latin for deriving any root                 spring is                  can anything?



  qua non refrains to be seen                 slow Aztecs                       slow remainders

  multiply orbits without naming them                                                or dividing

  formalize the concern                sine concern                                so long

  it's been so (long) as 



  as it makes                                    Aztecs had no money for "although"



  a fifth day's coloring abides the length of separation           few abide "although"


  reach it         span it                                         blending "although" and "and"

  regardless of the sun's owner, the sun's ownership

  averbal roots notwithstanding the quest                            sundrips            unrooted wondering

  five places beyond the decimal, excellence                                       Pythagorus so much

  delinquent bonds hem the sun



  (leeway?)                        so long as the harvest                               rude missives



  none minions or administrators                                Grant the effect of the dance on "although"



  only that                                     do not talk



  long for made money                         palaver                                 spend



  a ballet two places left of the decimal point                                      multiplicands of crows

  the drowse toward some inevitably disappointing remainder on the counter

                                                            block nothing

  plangent fortuities in airtight containers                             the untaught sunlight



  palomino but not risque--yet                 the formaldehyde on low                     the moon's palaver



  to wrench or plumb                 to name the product unwillfully                     a commerce



  a so long                           or

  a so long as



  COMMENTS

  I consider this as good as the Jorie Graham excerpt and feel I could continue it indefinitely and possibly will.  I enjoyed doing it but don't think much of it--as a final product--because I found it too easy to do.  But I believe there are quite a few poems in the mix.  The kind of free association I did in composing it is the way I compose most of my omnilexical (all-words) poems, but as a starting point, nothing more.

  (Note: the spacing and margins are as in the Graham poem, but my formatting might be messed up in transmission.)



  --Bob G.


















-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/e8007a28/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 09:30:41 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:30:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <2D979504.4E59E7D5.0B0E6811@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013d01c3ed86$f83cf190$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I've been wondering who could be said to have originated what I call the
jump-cut poem, like Jorie Graham's.  I think of "The Wasteland" as where it
started, or was first effective, in American poetry but don't really know.
Does anyone else?

--Bob G.




From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Feb  7 10:29:17 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 10:29:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] How Would Jorie Scorie?
References: <79.2222577c.2d557890@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00f801c3ed8f$2708cbe0$70def63f@Helen>

I wouldn't worry about this - it will be computer graded so the computer will know best and we poorly paid peons will have to find real work. 

xxx

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 6:09 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] How Would Jorie Scorie?



  This just in:


  Bizarre Revelation About the New SAT The SAT, a necessary rite of passage for every college-bound student, will include a timed writing test beginning in March 2005. Good thing William Shakespeare isn't trying to gain admission to one of our nation's elite, ivy-covered colleges so he could major in English. He would probably be rejected based on his SAT writing score. 


  Using the SAT's actual grading criteria for the essay, which include development of ideas, supporting examples, organization, word choice, and sentence structure, the test preparation pros at The Princeton Review "graded" the famous "All the world's a stage" passage from Shakespeare's "As You Like It." Out of one to six points with six being the highest possible score, the Bard gets a measly two points. 


  Shakespeare is in good company. The scathing report, which will be published in the March issue of the Atlantic Monthly, notes that Ernest Hemingway ("A Farewell to Arms," "The Sun Also Rise") scored a three, while Gertrude Stein ("The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas") got a one. Net net: The Princeton Review quips that Shakespeare would not test out of freshman English and Stein would have to take a remedial class. 


  But not everyone flunked! When a section from the infamous manifesto written by Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was analyzed on the SAT grading scale, it received a perfect six points because it followed the highly formulaic requirements detailed by the writing test's creators. Princeton Review founder John Katzman says this experiment proves the College Board's grading standards for writing reward students for following rules rather than for their creativity. 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/b6cfb537/attachment.html>

From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Sat Feb  7 10:48:39 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 10:48:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Boston Globe editorial on Grolier's Bookstore
Message-ID: <000001c3ed91$def45060$6401a8c0@Dell>

Literary rescue
2/7/2004

READERS: Go buy books at the Grolier Poetry Book Shop on Plympton Street
in Cambridge! The one-room store is struggling financially, but open and
crammed with some 16,000 poetry books, according to owner Louisa Solano.

"I need as many sales as possible to pay off bills," Solano says
bluntly. And book-lovers can understand: It's better to rally the troops
to save a beloved store rather than organize a pity party once a
storeowner has no other option but to close.

Time seems to have bent around Grolier. Walk in and it could be 2004 or
1964. Customers are surrounded luxuriously by books. The featured
photographs of poets are all black and white. The sign hanging outside
says "est. 1927," boldly indifferent to being hip, new, or attractive to
cell phone-loving teenagers. Hand-written signs promise
African-American, British, Irish, Slavic, Chinese, and Australian
poetry. The center table holds a load of discounted books, their lower
prices a seductive way to attract readers to the work of lesser-known
poets. The store hosts a series of readings; the next one, on Feb. 19,
features Russian poet Dmitri Prigov.

What's Grolier's future? Stay tuned. Solano says several buyers are
interested in the store. Solano also talks of supplementing the store by
selling books on the Web -- a good idea that could attract top-dollar
buyers. So she's looking for a webmaster who could donate services to
rehabilitate the store's ailing website.

"I used to say: `I farm books,' " Solano says, explaining the physical,
mental, and emotional labor that she puts into the store.

It's hard to find that kind of passion in stores that sell logo-laden
products that come to seem strangely useless in a year or two. In sharp
contrast, Solano offers shoppers the more substantive fare that only
merchants of metaphor can provide.





From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 11:11:24 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 11:11:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <013d01c3ed86$f83cf190$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEMPIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I don't know who or what poem was first in this area, Bob, and
I doubt that you'll ever be able to pin down an exact "first", but
you certainly might want to consider Apollinaire, whose "Zone"
came before "The Wasteland," as did Stein's "Tender Buttons."
Also, you'll find roots in Hopkins, in Dickinson, even in Blake.

And here's a nice little bit of discontinuity from E. E. Cummings
(but from '44):

	nonsun blob a
	cold to
	skylessness
	sticking fire

	my are your
	are birds our all
	and one gone
	away the they

'	leaf of ghosts some
	few creep there
	here or on
	unearth

--E. E. Cummings
fr. *1 x 1*

   
{    I've been wondering who could be said to have originated what I call the
{    jump-cut poem, like Jorie Graham's.  I think of "The Wasteland" as where it
{    started, or was first effective, in American poetry but don't really know.
{    Does anyone else?
{    
{    --Bob G.



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb  7 11:35:43 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 11:35:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <1c8.14e4267c.2d566ddf@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/7/2004 10:26:52 AM Central Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes: 
> 
> I don't know who or what poem was first in this area, Bob, and
> I doubt that you'll ever be able to pin down an exact "first", but
> you certainly might want to consider Apollinaire, whose "Zone"
> came before "The Wasteland," as did Stein's "Tender Buttons."
> Also, you'll find roots in Hopkins, in Dickinson, even in Blake.

You can add Mallarme's "Un Coup de Des" (1914) to the list.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/8e2f921c/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb  7 11:39:53 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 11:39:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <133.2adf5686.2d566ed9@cs.com>

Actually, Mallarme's poem dates from the 90s; it was published 16 years after 
his death in 1898.  This would probably pre-date any other experiments of 
this type.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/d60b85f9/attachment.html>

From bardo at optonline.net  Sat Feb  7 11:57:16 2004
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:57:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] How Would Jorie Scorie?
References: <79.2222577c.2d557890@cs.com>
Message-ID: <002701c3ed9b$70bc0570$6d94c044@MULDER>

One of my colleagues sent the following reply when I forwarded this message to her. She knows whereof she speaks.

Dan

Isn't there at least one logical fallacy at work here?

Keep in mind that the "test preparation pros at The Princeton Review" have millions of dollars vested in promoting their own agenda, which has at the top of its list "proving" that all tests, but especially those that test writing, have no validity.  Also keep in mind that there are no "test preparation pros at The Princeton Review," since the Princeton Review does not  "prepare" or produce tests.  It teaches kids whose parents have deep pockets how to beat tests.  Of course The Princeton Review would "prove" that neither Shakespeare nor Hemingway nor Stein would be able to score well on a test of writing!  That's their mission.  That's how they make their money. 

As someone who worked on helping to develop the original scoring guide for the SAT-II--which is the scoring guide to be used for the SAT/Writing--and as someone who has worked on the pilot tests for SAT/Writing, I'd urge caution about making judgments based on the results of self-serving "analyses" such as those "proven" by The Princeton Review.  They've been dong these kinds of "analyses" for years and as a result have been highly successful in recruiting students for their test-prep courses.

The Princeton Review does do a good job of raising student scores on the SAT by between 2 and 30 points--the same as would happen randomly if the student simply retook the test.  Their more inflated claims--that they can raise a student's score by 100 or more points--has not been substantiated.

p.s. I'd score Stein low, too.

RoseAnn
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 6:09 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] How Would Jorie Scorie?



  This just in:


  Bizarre Revelation About the New SAT The SAT, a necessary rite of passage for every college-bound student, will include a timed writing test beginning in March 2005. Good thing William Shakespeare isn't trying to gain admission to one of our nation's elite, ivy-covered colleges so he could major in English. He would probably be rejected based on his SAT writing score. 


  Using the SAT's actual grading criteria for the essay, which include development of ideas, supporting examples, organization, word choice, and sentence structure, the test preparation pros at The Princeton Review "graded" the famous "All the world's a stage" passage from Shakespeare's "As You Like It." Out of one to six points with six being the highest possible score, the Bard gets a measly two points. 


  Shakespeare is in good company. The scathing report, which will be published in the March issue of the Atlantic Monthly, notes that Ernest Hemingway ("A Farewell to Arms," "The Sun Also Rise") scored a three, while Gertrude Stein ("The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas") got a one. Net net: The Princeton Review quips that Shakespeare would not test out of freshman English and Stein would have to take a remedial class. 


  But not everyone flunked! When a section from the infamous manifesto written by Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was analyzed on the SAT grading scale, it received a perfect six points because it followed the highly formulaic requirements detailed by the writing test's creators. Princeton Review founder John Katzman says this experiment proves the College Board's grading standards for writing reward students for following rules rather than for their creativity. 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/488e77bb/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb  7 12:11:05 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:11:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <2B509B28.72D5DD29.02538291@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/6/2004 6:32:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Why is today's world more fragmented than at any other time?
> 
> It's probably less fragmented--but the fragments are much 
> more visible
> because of radio/tv/jet planes, etc.

Don't forget the invention of gunpowder,
which made fragmenting the world a little easier. 
I'm not valuing fragmentary over wholeness (etc.), 
or modern times (wherever the timeline gets divided) 
over old world & antiquity. But I think our days 
are certainly broken, interrupted, divided, 
in a thousand ways the ancients could never have 
imagined. And in ways we are barely aware of.
Wherever you are now just listen for a second..
its white noise or sound pollution. In most
urban centers we no longer see the stars at 
night, but thousands of artificial light
sources optically affect us. Again, I'm not
claiming one world is better or worse than 
the other. But more is more, & more 
fragmentary,I think. 
Finnegan


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb  7 12:16:14 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:16:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] How about another Rexroth?
Message-ID: <BC4A797D.6866%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Trout 

The trout is taken when he
Bites an artificial fly.
Confronted with fraud, keep your
Mouth shut and don?t volunteer.

--Kenneth Rexroth, fr. "A Bestiary"
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sat Feb  7 12:21:07 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 09:21:07 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori-ism & the Uses of Ridicule
In-Reply-To: <200402071429.i17ET7bk024025@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040207085728.00b2ee68@incoming.verizon.net>

Ah, crucial missing words have entered the debate: Jeffrey's "misuse, or 
bad use."

Every dead horse just as deserving of respectful attention as any other 
dead horse (oh those flies!)? No such thing as a poetaster? All pigs equal, 
none more-equal? Wait, could a word-salad poet ever, in the 
hacker-tradition (because it is oh so easy to play with net down) just be 
having us on?

Now, however and thank you Jesus,  we have "misuse, or bad use" to work 
with, so all that's needed for the discussion to reach full range is 
respect for inadvertent (?) comedy. Nothing quite so hilarious as a joke 
treated as if it were a Caligula-edict to be pondered by the Roman Senate. 
Quoting Bob G. "I consider this as good as the Jorie Graham excerpt and 
feel I could continue it indefinitely and possibly will." Superb.  Beyond 
Python. Do I hear a Bob-giggle somewhere? Also, I feel obligated to add: 
FREE CHRIS LOTT FROM THE TOILET BOWL!  (come on, guys, that's 
3-year-old-bully-level stuff, no decency at last, even when lust for the 
laurel wreath's at stake?).

Please consider this seemly prose-poem above my response to the challenge 
to do as well as Jori.

(respectfully),

Barry

(Omnism & Politesse Forever)

***************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/a81962e0/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb  7 12:28:03 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:28:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday Bagel
Message-ID: <BC4A7C43.686B%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A birthday bagel for David Ignatow (1914-1997):


THE BAGEL

I stopped to pick up the bagel
rolling away in the wind,
annoyed with myself
for having dropped it
as it were a portent.
Faster and faster it rolled,
with me running after it
bent low, gritting my teeth,
and I found myself doubled over
and rolling down the street
head over heels, one complete somersault
after another like a bagel
and strangely happy with myself.

--David Ignatow

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb  7 12:30:06 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:30:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bawer on Hamill
Message-ID: <f9.36f636bb.2d567a9e@cs.com>

Bruce Bawer's take on Sam Hamill's Poets Against the War anthology is in the 
current Hudson Review.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/8f8c7221/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb  7 12:58:59 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:58:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <031A0D01.71F04C8E.02538291@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/6/2004 7:08:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> Many poets through the ages have written poems in conventional
> modes on conventional themes--also because they had "nothing to 
> say"? Since when has "having something to say" (whatever 
> that
> means) been the touchstone?

Hal, to be very simple about it: In poetry there is
only how and what you say/write. Nothing else really
matters. If it's all 'how', then even the most patient
reader will weary of it; if it's all 'what', why
not write letters instead of poems.
I wasn't talking about conventional modes (whatever
that means). But I do believe that a poem that
relies too heavily on surface effects, all scintillation 
and no steady light(on things, ideas, emotions, etc.), 
subverts engagement beyond assessing the sum 
of those effects. 
I'm not one to hand-wring over this or that fashion
that sweeps through poetry. I recently encountered
a J B Priestly quote, that went something like,
Do you think that God cares that Mr. Ayer doesn't
believe he exists? Similarly, any kind of Poetry 
worth believing in will subsume (accrue to itself) 
the ongoing criticism of fashion and experiment.
Finnegan


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 12:51:19 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:51:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <031A0D01.71F04C8E.02538291@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENDIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


{    > Many poets through the ages have written poems in conventional
{    > modes on conventional themes--also because they had "nothing to 
{    > say"? Since when has "having something to say" (whatever 
{    > that
{    > means) been the touchstone?
{    
{    Hal, to be very simple about it: In poetry there is
{    only how and what you say/write. Nothing else really
{    matters. If it's all 'how', then even the most patient
{    reader will weary of it; if it's all 'what', why
{    not write letters instead of poems.
{    I wasn't talking about conventional modes (whatever
{    that means). But I do believe that a poem that
{    relies too heavily on surface effects, all scintillation 
{    and no steady light(on things, ideas, emotions, etc.), 
{    subverts engagement beyond assessing the sum 
{    of those effects. 
{    I'm not one to hand-wring over this or that fashion
{    that sweeps through poetry. I recently encountered
{    a J B Priestly quote, that went something like,
{    Do you think that God cares that Mr. Ayer doesn't
{    believe he exists? Similarly, any kind of Poetry 
{    worth believing in will subsume (accrue to itself) 
{    the ongoing criticism of fashion and experiment.
{    Finnegan

Apart from all the prescriptive generalities here, I've 
nothing against what you say, Jim.

Hal, who doesn't believe in believing--least of all, perhaps,
in "any kind of Poetry"



From chris at chrislott.org  Sat Feb  7 13:50:49 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 09:50:49 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <a05100300bc48de2ad5df@[204.215.201.122]>
References: <a05100300bc48de2ad5df@[204.215.201.122]>
Message-ID: <40253389.1080204@chrislott.org>

ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

> There is nothing wrong with Graham's poem.

With David Graham's poems, no. With Jorie's-- well, I'd say I'm far from 
the only one who thinks so. But that's OK, I do enjoy it when you crawl 
out of your shell to spout your conservative platitudes. I just imagine 
you all red-faced pounding on your keyboard and my outlook brightens 
considerably...

c


From chris at chrislott.org  Sat Feb  7 13:55:10 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 09:55:10 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org> <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4025348E.8030106@chrislott.org>

Bob Grumman wrote:

>>If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
>>better, eh?
>>
> 
> How do you find me suggesting that, Chris?

I think it's a relatively easy inference from this:

"And, for those who haven't kept up with poetry since the fifties, there 
are many poets taking fragmentation much further and using with vastly 
more effectiveness than Jorie Graham does--by, for instance, not merely 
breaking up sentences and phrases but words and even letters."

See, that word "merely" in that sentence pretty much gives it away, 
doesn't it? Doesn't that make clear a scale from "merely" breaking up 
sentences and phrases to, even better, words and letters?

I actually doubt we disagree too much, as I agree that there are many 
poets who take a fragemented approach to writing a poem and do so 
better. But your phrasing puts a whole different spin on things, doesn't 
it? Seems revealing.

c


From chris at chrislott.org  Sat Feb  7 14:00:17 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:00:17 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Graham and the "ridiculous challenge" (Finnegan)
In-Reply-To: <a05100300bc495d4d0610@[204.215.201.127]>
References: <200402062333.i16NX6bk020293@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc495d4d0610@[204.215.201.127]>
Message-ID: <402535C1.8090001@chrislott.org>

Once again Mr. Dillon, you get it all wrong. Perhaps in your world, 
effort equals quality. However, I never implied that it was EASY to 
write that poorly. That is why I am curious about how someone like Jorie 
Graham approaches the writing process (indeed, she does have some good 
poems).

In fact, I am sure bad authors often work just as hard as good ones. It 
is probably not easy to write like John Grisham, it is not easy to sing 
like even Britney Spears, nor is it easy to constantly misconstrue and 
create fabulist email posts like your own. I applaud these efforts.

Alas, that makes none of these attempts particularly good.

c


From chris at chrislott.org  Sat Feb  7 14:09:28 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:09:28 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori-ism & the Uses of Ridicule
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040207085728.00b2ee68@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040207085728.00b2ee68@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <402537E8.600@chrislott.org>

Barry Spacks wrote:

 > Also, I feel
> obligated to add: FREE CHRIS LOTT FROM THE TOILET BOWL!  

It's OK. In Richard Dillon's fantasia-- his police state of poetry and 
aesthetics-- there exist many rules that don't apply here, such as: 
effort equals quality, if you like one poem of Jorie Graham's then you 
better like them all, analogy = cursing, and I am sure there are more 
amidst his political posts but I confess I don't usually make it to the end.

c


From chris at chrislott.org  Sat Feb  7 14:25:45 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:25:45 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org> <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40253BB9.5040206@chrislott.org>

Bob Grumman wrote:

> How do you find me suggesting that, Chris?

Let me put this another way. Implicit in many of your posts is an idea 
with which I fundamentally disagree. That idea is that there is some 
intrinsic value in a work of art that is attributable solely to the fact 
that it is doing something new. Note that I am not maintaining that this 
makes a piece great or even good, just that there is some value that is 
ascribed for no other reason than that it wasn't done a hundred years 
(or ten years) before.

So, when you write something like: "for instance, not merely breaking up 
sentences and phrases but words and even letters." It's very difficult 
for me not to interpret that as saying, essentially: "look, there are 
people doing this much better because they break things up even MORE." 
Particularly with that word "merely."

I feel that doing something that has not been done before has zero 
value. Nada. None. It is not a bit less interesting to me to read a bad 
poem in a new form than to read a bad poem in an old one.

Now, I am also of the opinion that much good work in art is (and will 
be) done using traditional techniques and approaches. I don't think all 
the mines are played out yet. Which isn't to say that I disdain the new. 
Frankly, I don't understand some of it, and I think like all writing, 
90% of it is no good, and a significant portion of that 90% are naked 
emperors receiving undeserved acclaim.

But there is a lot I DO like, including some work by Jorie Graham, as 
well as other authors who I agree are going out a lot further in the 
realm of doing something that hasn't been done before. But they retain 
something of poetic interest. Just as there are people writing poems in 
old-- even ancient forms and styles-- that are still interesting. They 
too do something "new" it just doesn't come in the form or the style but 
in the construction of the ideas and the words. I won't knock them for 
writing in the way that makes sense to them any more than I would lower 
my estimation of a painter because they continue to use oil paint and 
palette knives ather than acrylics and brushes, or are concerned with 
figures rather than abstracts. None of those things have any place in my 
scale of value.

c


From chris at chrislott.org  Sat Feb  7 14:30:59 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 10:30:59 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <2D979504.4E59E7D5.0B0E6811@aol.com>
References: <2D979504.4E59E7D5.0B0E6811@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40253CF3.1030007@chrislott.org>

FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:

> Sure, some poets doubtless adopt a fragmented style because they have
> nothing to say, or to obscure what they have to say, or because they
> haven't yet learned how to say what they have to say, or because
> they've been taught that this is how you say it. But what form is not
> capable of housing a misuse, or bad use? Isn't this the sort of
> argument that free versers hear from formalists, and just the sort of
> argment that free versers have historically leveled back at
> formalists? 

It absolutely is. The question, as I have asked from the beginning, is 
how are we distinguishing the good examples from the bad? I think the JG 
example is pretty bad. Clearly you disagree. That's the wonder of 
poetry. But it seemed interesting to me that the discussion about what 
made the poem work was about poetic approach and tradition, but didn't 
seem to be about this particular poem (much).

My take is that of the relativist, that it is unlikely that we can 
really communicate to one another what makes this poem good or bad to us 
in a way that will be convincing because our aeshetic apprehension 
springs from a wealth of sources and influences far too complex to 
understand.

But some part of me must not really believe it, because it's not as if 
we don't try to understand and convince ourselves and others.

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 14:30:07 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:30:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEMPIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <066801c3edb0$ccc586b0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> I don't know who or what poem was first in this area, Bob, and
> I doubt that you'll ever be able to pin down an exact "first", but
> you certainly might want to consider Apollinaire, whose "Zone"
> came before "The Wasteland," as did Stein's "Tender Buttons."
> Also, you'll find roots in Hopkins, in Dickinson, even in Blake.

> And here's a nice little bit of discontinuity from E. E. Cummings
> (but from '44):

Ah, but I would claim this is not jump-cut but re-arranged.  It's certainly
a similar kind of thing, though.  I'll probably have to rethink what I mean
by jump-cut.  I don't think Stein's stuff or the many anti-semantic (if I'm
allowed to use the term) dadaist poems qualify.  They're more hermetic than
jump-cut.  I'd be interested in knowing who besides Stein was doing things
like the buttons, though.  I know various dadaists were, but don't know who,
or what they did.

Anyway, thanks for the info, Hal.  I hadn't thought to think of Apollinaire.
Which reminds me of Mallarme.  Would he have been the first to do this sort
of thing wholesale?

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 14:44:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:44:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <1c8.14e4267c.2d566ddf@cs.com>
Message-ID: <06a701c3edb2$c9033ca0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  In a message dated 2/7/2004 10:26:52 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: 


    I don't know who or what poem was first in this area, Bob, and
    I doubt that you'll ever be able to pin down an exact "first", but
    you certainly might want to consider Apollinaire, whose "Zone"
    came before "The Wasteland," as did Stein's "Tender Buttons."
    Also, you'll find roots in Hopkins, in Dickinson, even in Blake.


  You can add Mallarme's "Un Coup de Des" (1914) to the list. 

  Yes, that comes up in histories of visual poetry, too.  But the date is wrong, isn't it?  He died before 1900.  It's the date of Tender Buttons.

  I don't know his poetry.  Did he do other experiments in fragmentation?

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/56df0264/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 14:45:58 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:45:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <133.2adf5686.2d566ed9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <06b301c3edb3$03385c20$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Actually, Mallarme's poem dates from the 90s; it was published 16 years after his death in 1898.  This would probably pre-date any other experiments of this type. 

  Right, publication date.  I wonder if Stein saw it before doing her buttons.  I don't see much linkage but it could have inspired her.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/92145822/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb  7 15:21:55 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:21:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <76.377f57dd.2d56a2e3@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/7/2004 1:47:07 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> >> Actually, Mallarme's poem dates from the 90s; it was published 16 years 
>> after his death in 1898.  This would probably pre-date any other experiments 
>> of this type. 
>>  
>>  Right, publication date.  I wonder if Stein saw it before doing her 
>> buttons.  I don't see much linkage but it could have inspired her.
>> 
> 
Assuredly she did, since its publication was quite an event.  Which is not to 
say that she wasn't already doing work in this vein.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/075a2d98/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb  7 15:23:17 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:23:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/7/2004 1:47:07 PM Central Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
>  
>  Right, publication date.  I wonder if Stein saw it before doing her 
> buttons.  I don't see much linkage but it could have inspired her.
> 
Wonder why nobody's ever done a biopic about Stein and her circle.  What a 
script that material might make!  About as close as anyone's got was a film--not 
a bad one either--called The Moderns about ten years ago.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/26b42149/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb  7 15:27:33 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:27:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <1ab.1ffbdd65.2d56a435@cs.com>

We learn in The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas that when Ezra Pound came to 
Paris, "Gertrude Stein liked him but did not find him amusing. She said he 
was a village explainer, excellent if you were a village, but if you were not, 
not." 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/b2c8695a/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb  7 15:41:56 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 14:41:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] You Can Tell the Horse Anything
Message-ID: <BC4AA9B4.6897%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Allow me to mention my delight that Mary Koncel's book of the above title
has appeared, courtesy of Jeffrey Levine's Tupelo Press.  Jeffrey noted this
earlier, but I fear the news may have been obscured in the dust kicked up by
the whole Jorie story.

Mary was a grad school classmate of mine back in 1737, and this is her first
full-length collection, so the book feels long overdue.  Mary's a prose
poet, rich and strange.

Featured today on Poetry Daily, by the way.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sat Feb  7 15:54:05 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 15:54:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] You Can Tell the Horse Anything
Message-ID: <12b.3b037e10.2d56aa6d@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/7/04 3:39:50 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


> Mary was a grad school classmate of mine back in 1737, and this is her 
> first
> full-length collection, so the book feels long overdue.
> 

267 years. Lord knows we're slow, but I swear we didn't hold on to the 
manuscript that long! But thanks, David. I think she's really something. The review 
in Ruminator of No Boundaries (the prose poem anthology) signaled Mary out as 
the prose poet to watch. 

Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/6bba015a/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 16:04:16 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:04:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org> <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4025348E.8030106@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <070901c3edbd$f3adee90$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> >>If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
> >>better, eh?
> >>
> >
> > How do you find me suggesting that, Chris?
>
> I think it's a relatively easy inference from this:
>
> "And, for those who haven't kept up with poetry since the fifties, there
> are many poets taking fragmentation much further and using with vastly
> more effectiveness than Jorie Graham does--by, for instance, not merely
> breaking up sentences and phrases but words and even letters."
>
> See, that word "merely" in that sentence pretty much gives it away,
> doesn't it? Doesn't that make clear a scale from "merely" breaking up
> sentences and phrases to, even better, words and letters?

> I actually doubt we disagree too much, as I agree that there are many
> poets who take a fragemented approach to writing a poem and do so
> better. But your phrasing puts a whole different spin on things, doesn't
> it? Seems revealing.
>
> c

It's not revealing of a belief that the more fragmentation there is, the
better, but of my desire to show that Jorie Graham is not cutting edge, my
main theme in most of my posts about her poem.  But, although I hate to
admit it, you and the verosopath *did* catch me in a slip.  The verosopath
only cared about the slip, though.  It wasn't the "merely," it was the wrong
placement of "and using with vastly more effectiveness than Jorie Graham
does."  I was thinking and should have written "And, for those who haven't
kept up with poetry since the fifties, there
 are many poets taking fragmentation much further  *** than Jorie Graham
does--by, for instance, not merely
 breaking up sentences and phrases but words and even letters-- *** and
using it with vastly more effectiveness than Jorie Graham does."

The reason I don't consider you a verosopath is that I believe you will
accept me as not lying or self-deceived when I say that I don't think that
the more fragmentation, the better.  I do believe the more risk-taking, the
better--not for the individual poem the risk-taking occurs in necessarily
but for poetry.  My stand has always been that the more tools a poet has
available, the better.  I don't claim the new ones are better than the
old--except that when well-used they are temporarily better because more
fresh, and freshness is a poetic, an artistic, virtue.

I believe that the best poetic device is what I call the "equaphor," by
which I mean primarily the metaphor.  I consider all other devices more or
less equal, except that the less-used ones in a given time are generally
more effective because fresher, as stated.

Lineation, the simplest and probably first methodical form of fragmentation
used in poetry, and one of the important contributions of free verse to the
art of poetry, is--for me--equal to rhyme, which is equal to fragmentation
of sentences, which is equal to fragmentation of words, which is equal to
fragmentation of letters.  Of course, some have a much smaller range of
effectiveness than others.  I don't see fragmentation of letters being a
device worth using often, just a device that in the right place can be as
effective as any other poetic device except metaphor.

I agree that you and I have a fairly similar view of Graham's poetry.

--Bob G.




From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb  7 16:10:33 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:10:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  You Can Tell the Horse Anything
In-Reply-To: <12b.3b037e10.2d56aa6d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC4AB069.689E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Well, maybe not *quite* 267 years, but it did take Mary a *long* time to get
her first full length collection into print.  She has long been one of those
poets I think of when people blather on about how quality work eventually
gets recognized, or about the publishing glut.

I'm really not sure that there aren't dozens if not hundreds of Mary
Koncels--who was already writing at top form 25 years ago-- out there trying
to break into print for year after year, while the journals are, as ever,
filled with the dribblings of Everett Doodad and Millie Minorkey.

Yes, it was ever thus, I know.  It's a big old goofy world, as John Prine
sings. . . .

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

In a message dated 2/7/04 3:39:50 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


Mary was a grad school classmate of mine back in 1737, and this is her first
full-length collection, so the book feels long overdue.


267 years. Lord knows we're slow, but I swear we didn't hold on to the
manuscript that long! But thanks, David. I think she's really something. The
review in Ruminator of No Boundaries (the prose poem anthology) signaled
Mary out as the prose poet to watch.

Jeffrey 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 16:08:43 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:08:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com>
Message-ID: <074501c3edbe$934556f0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Has The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas been filmed?  I should think it'd work quite well as both history of story.

--Bob G.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 3:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


  In a message dated 2/7/2004 1:47:07 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 


    Right, publication date.  I wonder if Stein saw it before doing her buttons.  I don't see much linkage but it could have inspired her.


  Wonder why nobody's ever done a biopic about Stein and her circle.  What a script that material might make!  About as close as anyone's got was a film--not a bad one either--called The Moderns about ten years ago. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/0a536812/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 16:09:59 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:09:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <1ab.1ffbdd65.2d56a435@cs.com>
Message-ID: <075301c3edbe$c00a1040$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

We learn in The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas that when Ezra Pound came to Paris, "Gertrude Stein liked him but did not find him amusing. She said he was a village explainer, excellent if you were a village, but if you were not, not." 

Thirty years ago, I described Stein in a college essay as a "village dumbfounder."

--Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/84efac30/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 16:02:31 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:02:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECENJIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Greta Schiller's *Paris was a Woman* was a pretty good
docu-flick on that scene, with the women definitely stage front.

Hal

Wonder why nobody's ever done a biopic about Stein and her circle.  What a
script that material might make!  About as close as anyone's got was a
film--not a bad one either--called The Moderns about ten years ago.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/7ecb9977/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 16:30:32 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:30:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org> <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <40253BB9.5040206@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <075e01c3edc1$9f07b7a0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Let me put this another way. Implicit in many of your posts is an idea
> with which I fundamentally disagree. That idea is that there is some
> intrinsic value in a work of art that is attributable solely to the fact
> that it is doing something new. Note that I am not maintaining that this
> makes a piece great or even good, just that there is some value that is
> ascribed for no other reason than that it wasn't done a hundred years
> (or ten years) before.
>
> So, when you write something like: "for instance, not merely breaking up
> sentences and phrases but words and even letters." It's very difficult
> for me not to interpret that as saying, essentially: "look, there are
> people doing this much better because they break things up even MORE."
> Particularly with that word "merely."
>
> I feel that doing something that has not been done before has zero
> value. Nada. None.

As I always argue, you are plainly wrong.  There are two possibilities: (1)
the new thing can not be exploited to the benefit of poetry; or (2) the new
thing CAN be exploited to the benefit of poetry.  (1) is of value for
indicating paths not worth following; (2) for increasing the poet's tool
kit.

I will add that I don't think (1) is possible.  I think anything can be used
to express something.  Yes, splattering ink on a page can say all kinds of
things nothing else can.

>It is not a bit less interesting to me to read a bad
> poem in a new form than to read a bad poem in an old one.

It's hard for me to understand how any poet could say that.  But I know that
many do.  I love reading bad poems using new techniques, because there's a
possibility that I'll be able to steal the technique and become the first
one to use it effectively, or to describe it and its possibilities as a
critic.

> Now, I am also of the opinion that much good work in art is (and will
> be) done using traditional techniques and approaches. I don't think all
> the mines are played out yet. Which isn't to say that I disdain the new.
> Frankly, I don't understand some of it, and I think like all writing,
> 90% of it is no good, and a significant portion of that 90% are naked
> emperors receiving undeserved acclaim.

Here's another difference between me and you, Chris: I would never refer to
the naked emperor parable--except the way I now am.  The old beings to pain
me much faster than it does you, I imagine.

> But there is a lot I DO like, including some work by Jorie Graham, as
> well as other authors who I agree are going out a lot further in the
> realm of doing something that hasn't been done before. But they retain
> something of poetic interest. Just as there are people writing poems in
> old-- even ancient forms and styles-- that are still interesting. They
> too do something "new" it just doesn't come in the form or the style but
> in the construction of the ideas and the words. I won't knock them for
> writing in the way that makes sense to them any more than I would lower
> my estimation of a painter because they continue to use oil paint and
> palette knives ather than acrylics and brushes, or are concerned with
> figures rather than abstracts.

How about use of computers to make visual art?  The old-timers in visual are
resisting that as ridiculously as old-timers (of all ages) resist fragmented
poetry.

>None of those things have any place in my
> scale of value.
>
> c

Well, as I keep saying, I do not think poems using new techniques are
necessarily better than those using old techniques, or that the best poems
are exclusively those using new techniques.  I merely believe that using new
techniques, even badly, is a virtue.  Exploration.  Leading to records of
exploration.

Oh, and because I do think any poem that uses a significantly new technique
is of value, I don't think that it's use of a new technique necessarily
makes it a good poem.  I've always distinguished between poems', and poets',
importance and effectiveness.  The first depends on contribution to the art,
 the second on aesthetic value of the work.  Pound, for instance, was, for
me, a much more important poet than Yeats, but Yeats was a much more
effective poet than Pound (although I think that Pound, at his best, was as
effective a poet as Yeats).

--Bob G.




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sat Feb  7 17:41:32 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 17:41:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003801c3edcb$890e8500$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

There is, however, that wonderful moment in my favorite bad movie of all time, the Errol Flynn/Tyrone Power/Ava Gardner version of The Sun Also Rises. The entire "irony and pity" dialog of the fishing in the Pyrenees scene is reduced to the following exhange.

Eddie Albert: Whatever happened to that old woman you knew in Paris - the one who said we were all a lost generation?

Tyrone Power: I never liked her much. But she had some really good paintings.

Tad
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 3:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


  In a message dated 2/7/2004 1:47:07 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 


    Right, publication date.  I wonder if Stein saw it before doing her buttons.  I don't see much linkage but it could have inspired her.


  Wonder why nobody's ever done a biopic about Stein and her circle.  What a script that material might make!  About as close as anyone's got was a film--not a bad one either--called The Moderns about ten years ago. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/59b3c0e5/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb  7 18:10:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 00:10:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com> <003801c3edcb$890e8500$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <010c01c3edcf$a06395c0$9a1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Just to let you know that I finally caught up with over 70 messages in about two hours. Was it worth? Yes, except for some back- and -forth mean answers. Re: Jorie Graham's poem, which started the thread, I like it. While I didn't like the remake, how can I explain, its remake is void and echoes senseless to me. In this moment. Because I know it is a remake done on purpose, while in Jorie's poem I can sort of read her _poetic effort_ and by effort I mean, need to communicate something which is difficult for her to face. And she succeeds in doing it. And conveyed to me her effort, I remember a song I liked, Say it in broken English by Marianne Faithfull - oh a very common song...

MNMLST POETRY by Bob Grumman, inserted in the two previous hours, was a good read, even if I do not agree with everything. The interpretation of Lax's poem 

wa-
ter

stone

where stone as the concluding word gives the idea of a harsh arrest, is sometimes my feeling with some mails, where the one who has the last word is the one who wins.

But I think I heard this said by some other people before.

Interesting is the exchange on the fragmentarism or _monadicity_ of our times, and in this case the discussion seemed to me more an evolving than an obstinate _taking a position for the sake of it_.

A good Sunday,

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Prayer

Whatever happens. Whatever
what is is is what
I want. Only that. But that.
Galway Kinnell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/9f24d57a/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sat Feb  7 18:23:53 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:23:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <1c2.14bac91a.2d56cd89@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/7/04 2:31:57 PM, chris at chrislott.org writes:


> It absolutely is. The question, as I have asked from the beginning, is
> how are we distinguishing the good examples from the bad? I think the JG
> example is pretty bad. Clearly you disagree. That's the wonder of
> poetry. But it seemed interesting to me that the discussion about what
> made the poem work was about poetic approach and tradition, but didn't
> seem to be about this particular poem (much).
> 

Well, the questions always is, example of what? JG's is (I think) a good 
example of fragmented poetry, though David was throwing a particulary difficult 
one at us to be provocative (David!!!). If you're saying it's hard to come up 
whith a rubric for evaluating a fragmented poem, I'd say that's probably true if 
we stick fast to the vocabulary we use to talk about more linear poetry. You 
expect something different when you talk about abstraction, and you talk about 
it differently, too. I think, also, that it might help to ask how well a 
particular poem fulfills the possibilities of a particular form, rather than say 
this one's good and that one sucks, though I'm not sure about this -- sounds 
suspicially like Tenet Twenty Seven of those in-service essay assessment 
clinics.   When I first started reading manuscript submissions, I know it was pretty 
hard to say I liked one Iowa school manuscript better -- or worse -- than 
another.   (I was intrigued, though that sense of wonder was often set off by the 
apparent conspiracy among Iowa Schoolers to submit manuscripts in 9 or 10 
point type, often in landscape.) Now, after reading hundreds, one such ms will 
grab hold of me in the way any ms grabs hold, while others (most others) seem 
humdrum and by the way.   Why? The usual: craft, imagination, voice, vision, 
music, ideas.   It's no Potter Stewart standard, least not far as I'm concerned, 
but like any aesthetic standard, it's holistically applied. What I remember 
about this particular JG poem that worked for me (this is absurd, really, because 
I don't have the poem any more), was that the combinations of certain words 
and suggested images seemed related, seemed powerful, and   worked in a 
cumulative and rhythmic way to release an identification with the speaker and the 
speaker's predicament. It felt intimate (oddly so, of course, because of the 
fragmentation). But this is stupid: I can't be more concrete without the poem, so 
I'm guilty of terminal vagueness.   You could re-post the poem tomorrow, but 
then I'd just find another excuse and besides, I'm expecting a call any minute 
from JG's agent, asking me to blurt -- I mean, blurb -- her next book.

Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/eeafcbdb/attachment.html>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sat Feb  7 18:36:38 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:36:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <78.4ffc8128.2d56d086@aol.com>

suspiciously . . . i meant suspiciously! good grief.

jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/22d4cc18/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb  7 19:21:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:21:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com> <003801c3edcb$890e8500$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <010c01c3edcf$a06395c0$9a1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <07f301c3edd9$91a5bc70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Anny, if you're referring to my "Fragment of a Joratorio," it was not a remake but an attempt to make a passage of poetry like hers in technique that was equal to or better than hers (beyond the level of subject matter, I would hope).  I'd be curious how someone who likes Graham's work would take it if given an untitled copy of it and told it was by her and seemed opaque.  It is far from opaque, by the way.  I'm certainly not interested in communicating something that was difficult for me to face, but images and locutions and music intended to create a mood.  But which poem, if either, works, is a pretty subjective matter.

Hmmm, I notice "anguiah" in her passage.  I used no overt emotion words, which will probably cost my passage with the kind of people who like these kinds of poems.

Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting on my fragment.

--Bob G.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anny Ballardini 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


  Just to let you know that I finally caught up with over 70 messages in about two hours. Was it worth? Yes, except for some back- and -forth mean answers. Re: Jorie Graham's poem, which started the thread, I like it. While I didn't like the remake, how can I explain, its remake is void and echoes senseless to me. In this moment. Because I know it is a remake done on purpose, while in Jorie's poem I can sort of read her _poetic effort_ and by effort I mean, need to communicate something which is difficult for her to face. And she succeeds in doing it. And conveyed to me her effort, I remember a song I liked, Say it in broken English by Marianne Faithfull - oh a very common song...

  MNMLST POETRY by Bob Grumman, inserted in the two previous hours, was a good read, even if I do not agree with everything. The interpretation of Lax's poem 

  wa-
  ter

  stone

  where stone as the concluding word gives the idea of a harsh arrest, is sometimes my feeling with some mails, where the one who has the last word is the one who wins.

  But I think I heard this said by some other people before.

  Interesting is the exchange on the fragmentarism or _monadicity_ of our times, and in this case the discussion seemed to me more an evolving than an obstinate _taking a position for the sake of it_.

  A good Sunday,

  Anny Ballardini
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

  Prayer

  Whatever happens. Whatever
  what is is is what
  I want. Only that. But that.
  Galway Kinnell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040207/6524359b/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 20:48:32 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:48:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Aram Saroyan, "French Poets"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEOCIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

French Poets

French poets are the greatest of all.
They arrive with different smiles.
They are used to the sun and to coffee.
They smoke
Incessantly.

If you tell them a joke they weep for joy.
If you tell them a
Sad story they weep for joy.
And if they only knew joy.

We others seem
Pained by comparison. We all smile
Less than we might, a lesson
In the great French movies:

Suddenly she is smiling. Suddenly she is
Smiling. Suddenly she is smiling. Sudden
Ly she is smiling. Suddenly she is smili

--while so often we seem lost in thought.
Our skin is dry. 
We buy the wrong shirts.
Or we buy the right ones but we look tired.
Our eyes are often red

From chris at chrislott.org  Sun Feb  8 00:38:31 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:38:31 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <075e01c3edc1$9f07b7a0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
References: <BC4702E3.6756%grahamd@ripon.edu> <016d01c3ebd5$3c00c270$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <024e01c3ebde$9f3789b0$33efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4022D8FD.4080709@chrislott.org> <008a01c3ec4e$951177a0$49efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <40253BB9.5040206@chrislott.org> <075e01c3edc1$9f07b7a0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4025CB57.5080107@chrislott.org>

Well, Bob, clearly you and I think about poetry quite differently. But I 
feel now that I have a much clearer understanding of what your shorthand 
remark was referring to... thanks...

c



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb  8 05:34:45 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:34:45 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com> <003801c3edcb$890e8500$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <010c01c3edcf$a06395c0$9a1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <07f301c3edd9$91a5bc70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <007101c3ee2f$2c9483b0$4b607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Thank you for answering my mail. I even forgot it was you who wrote the Fragment of a Joratorio (isn't the title very ironical by itself?).
And my reading was a reading by the lot, to the point that I couldn't even remember who wrote the remake, sorry, "the attempt to make.... "
A good day,
Anny
  From: Bob Grumman 


  Anny, if you're referring to my "Fragment of a Joratorio," it was not a remake but an attempt to make a passage of poetry like hers in technique that was equal to or better than hers (beyond the level of subject matter, I would hope).  I'd be curious how someone who likes Graham's work would take it if given an untitled copy of it and told it was by her and seemed opaque.  It is far from opaque, by the way.  I'm certainly not interested in communicating something that was difficult for me to face, but images and locutions and music intended to create a mood.  But which poem, if either, works, is a pretty subjective matter.

  Hmmm, I notice "anguiah" in her passage.  I used no overt emotion words, which will probably cost my passage with the kind of people who like these kinds of poems.

  Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting on my fragment.

  --Bob G.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Anny Ballardini 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:10 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie


    Just to let you know that I finally caught up with over 70 messages in about two hours. Was it worth? Yes, except for some back- and -forth mean answers. Re: Jorie Graham's poem, which started the thread, I like it. While I didn't like the remake, how can I explain, its remake is void and echoes senseless to me. In this moment. Because I know it is a remake done on purpose, while in Jorie's poem I can sort of read her _poetic effort_ and by effort I mean, need to communicate something which is difficult for her to face. And she succeeds in doing it. And conveyed to me her effort, I remember a song I liked, Say it in broken English by Marianne Faithfull - oh a very common song...

    MNMLST POETRY by Bob Grumman, inserted in the two previous hours, was a good read, even if I do not agree with everything. The interpretation of Lax's poem 

    wa-
    ter

    stone

    where stone as the concluding word gives the idea of a harsh arrest, is sometimes my feeling with some mails, where the one who has the last word is the one who wins.

    But I think I heard this said by some other people before.

    Interesting is the exchange on the fragmentarism or _monadicity_ of our times, and in this case the discussion seemed to me more an evolving than an obstinate _taking a position for the sake of it_.

    A good Sunday,

    Anny Ballardini
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

    Prayer

    Whatever happens. Whatever
    what is is is what
    I want. Only that. But that.
    Galway Kinnell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/521e18ee/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb  8 08:25:05 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:25:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <ea.46794364.2d56a335@cs.com> <003801c3edcb$890e8500$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <010c01c3edcf$a06395c0$9a1c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> <07f301c3edd9$91a5bc70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <007101c3ee2f$2c9483b0$4b607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <014501c3ee46$f82a50b0$82efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

A few further comments on my poem, which someone else I know found what he thought a new line in it, but said the text needed more work.

Can any of the Graham-defenders tell me what she's doing in her poem that I'm not?  I'm asking not to put anyone on the defensive but to find out if there's a technique she's using I don't know about and can add to my repertoire.

My poem is not a parody.  What I did was glance at her poem a few times, then make a poem with interior flow-breaks like hers does, and just free associate.  I did that in my own way, not as she does--I let sounds suggest new words, and try to repeat words but give them different meanings (like judicial court/royal court. although I don't think anything in the poem makes my first use of "court" have to do with judicial courts); and I tried for unusual word-combinations that suggested interesting images.  I tried for subtly logical interconnections, too.  Every once in a while, I would think, "better put some logic in here," or "time for something archetypal" or "time for the lyrical," etc.

Does anyone know if Graham revises?  I'm thinking of reworking my fragment.  If I don't do that, I'll probably take out the good passages and use them in new poems.

--Bob G.




  Thank you for answering my mail. I even forgot it was you who wrote the Fragment of a Joratorio (isn't the title very ironical by itself?).
  And my reading was a reading by the lot, to the point that I couldn't even remember who wrote the remake, sorry, "the attempt to make.... "
  A good day,
  Anny
    From: Bob Grumman 


    Anny, if you're referring to my "Fragment of a Joratorio," it was not a remake but an attempt to make a passage of poetry like hers in technique that was equal to or better than hers (beyond the level of subject matter, I would hope).  I'd be curious how someone who likes Graham's work would take it if given an untitled copy of it and told it was by her and seemed opaque.  It is far from opaque, by the way.  I'm certainly not interested in communicating something that was difficult for me to face, but images and locutions and music intended to create a mood.  But which poem, if either, works, is a pretty subjective matter.

    Hmmm, I notice "anguiah" in her passage.  I used no overt emotion words, which will probably cost my passage with the kind of people who like these kinds of poems.

    Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting on my fragment.

    --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/a7bba34c/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 09:35:12 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:35:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  John Ashbery, "Ghost Riders of the Moon"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEONIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Ghost Riders of the Moon

Today I would leave it just as it is.
The pocket comb--"dirty as a comb," the French say,
yet not so dirty, surely not in the spiritual sense
some intuit; the razor, lying at an angle
to the erect toothbrush, like an alligator stalking
a *bayad?re*; the singular effect of all things
being themselves, that is, stark mad

with no apologies to the world or the ether,
and then the crumbling realization that a halt
has been called. That the stair treads
conspired in it. That the boiling oil
hunched above the rim of its vessel, and just sat there.
That there were no apologies to be made, ever
again, no alibis for the articles returned to the store,
just a standoff, placid, eternal. And one can admire
again the coatings of things, without prejudice
or innuendo, and the kernels he discreetly
disposed of--well, spat out. Such

objects as my endurance picks out
like a searchlight have gone the extra mile
too, like schoolchildren, and are seated now
in attentive rows, waiting trimly for these words to flood
distraught corners of silence. We collected
them after all for their unique
indifference to each other and to the circus
that houses us all, and for their collectibility--
that, and their tendency to fall apart.

--John Ashbery

fr. *And the Stars Were Shining*
[New York: The Noonday Press, 1994]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 13:10:59 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:10:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot!
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEPCIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

"Centcom Briefings Sonnets" now on view at
Newtopia Magazine--

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/content/issue15/index.shtml

Click on New Poetry Collective on left side of home page.

Hal         Not responsible for typographical errers.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb  8 13:17:55 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:17:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Boston Globe editorial on Grolier's Bookstore
Message-ID: <1e0.1904d8d2.2d57d753@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/7/2004 10:47:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
ron.silliman at verizon.net writes:

> What's Grolier's future? Stay tuned. Solano says several buyers are
> interested in the store. Solano also talks of supplementing the store by
> selling books on the Web -- a good idea that could attract top-dollar
> buyers. So she's looking for a webmaster who could donate services to
> rehabilitate the store's ailing website.
> 

I love the Grolier. I stop in everytime I'm
near Cambridge, which has been on fewer
occasions of late. 

It seems a little late in the game to be launching
a web presence. They should have done
that years ago...she could have used the Grolier 
"brand name" to make it poetry book central on the web. 
 
At least Springchurch, which I don't think has 
a website either, sends around little (very plain) 
catalogs to its customers. Small Press 
Distribution also sends out very nice catalogs...
of course they are hawking not only poetry, but
fiction, nonfiction, litmags and other titles of 
literary interest, and their target market is
bookstore sales, and only secondarily sales 
to the public.   

As many times as I've bought books at 
Grolier, and believe me I could line a couple
of shelves with my purchases from that store,
I've never been solicited by mail (or email).

Add to that there is very little parking on the tiny 
street the shop is on, and Mass Ave is even worse, 
and the fact the store is uncomfortably small 
(anyone with claustrophobia would get a panic attack 
browsing the place), and is crammed to the ceiling 
with books you need a ladder to read the spines of 
(so it's no picnic of acrophobics either), and you 
begin to wonder why it's lasted as long as it has.
But I'll call in an order for the cause.
Finnegan 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/ec92553b/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb  8 13:51:15 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 12:51:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier's Bookstore
In-Reply-To: <1e0.1904d8d2.2d57d753@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC4BE143.6908%grahamd@ripon.edu>

When I lived in Massachusetts I spent much time and even more money at the
Grolier, too.  A great, great store.  If you're looking for obscure, out of
print, etc., they often have what no one else does.  I'm not often in
Cambridge these days, but it's a must if you ever are.

They *have* had a web presence for a number of years, but unfortunately it's
a pretty crappy  and limited interface:

http://www.grolierpoetrybookshop.com/

They also have an 800 #-- but it's been a few years, I confess, since I used
it--about the time I discovered Powells.com, another splendid independent
with a *much* better web site.

Anyway, from the web site, here's the info:

Mail and special orders invited (617) 547-4648
Outside Massachusetts 1-800-234-POEM ~ Fax (617) 547-4230

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


From: JforJames at aol.com
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:17:55 EST
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Boston Globe editorial on Grolier's Bookstore


In a message dated 2/7/2004 10:47:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ron.silliman at verizon.net writes:

What's Grolier's future? Stay tuned. Solano says several buyers are
interested in the store. Solano also talks of supplementing the store by
selling books on the Web -- a good idea that could attract top-dollar
buyers. So she's looking for a webmaster who could donate services to
rehabilitate the store's ailing website.


I love the Grolier. I stop in everytime I'm
near Cambridge, which has been on fewer
occasions of late. 

It seems a little late in the game to be launching
a web presence. They should have done
that years ago...she could have used the Grolier
"brand name" to make it poetry book central on the web.

At least Springchurch, which I don't think has
a website either, sends around little (very plain)
catalogs to its customers. Small Press
Distribution also sends out very nice catalogs...
of course they are hawking not only poetry, but
fiction, nonfiction, litmags and other titles of
literary interest, and their target market is
bookstore sales, and only secondarily sales
to the public.   

As many times as I've bought books at
Grolier, and believe me I could line a couple
of shelves with my purchases from that store,
I've never been solicited by mail (or email).

Add to that there is very little parking on the tiny
street the shop is on, and Mass Ave is even worse,
and the fact the store is uncomfortably small
(anyone with claustrophobia would get a panic attack
browsing the place), and is crammed to the ceiling
with books you need a ladder to read the spines of
(so it's no picnic of acrophobics either), and you
begin to wonder why it's lasted as long as it has.
But I'll call in an order for the cause.
Finnegan 




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb  8 14:54:30 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 14:54:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Boston Globe editorial on Grolier's Bookstore
References: <1e0.1904d8d2.2d57d753@aol.com>
Message-ID: <022b01c3ee7d$5f48b8f0$82efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


What's Grolier's future? Stay tuned. Solano says several buyers are
interested in the store. Solano also talks of supplementing the store by
selling books on the Web -- a good idea that could attract top-dollar
buyers. So she's looking for a webmaster who could donate services to
rehabilitate the store's ailing website.



  I love the Grolier. I stop in everytime I'm
  near Cambridge, which has been on fewer
  occasions of late. 

  It seems a little late in the game to be launching
  a web presence. They should have done
  that years ago...she could have used the Grolier 
  "brand name" to make it poetry book central on the web. 

  At least Springchurch, which I don't think has 
  a website either, sends around little (very plain) 
  catalogs to its customers. Small Press 
  Distribution also sends out very nice catalogs...
  of course they are hawking not only poetry, but
  fiction, nonfiction, litmags and other titles of 
  literary interest, and their target market is
  bookstore sales, and only secondarily sales 
  to the public.   

  As many times as I've bought books at 
  Grolier, and believe me I could line a couple
  of shelves with my purchases from that store,
  I've never been solicited by mail (or email).

  Add to that there is very little parking on the tiny 
  street the shop is on, and Mass Ave is even worse, 
  and the fact the store is uncomfortably small 
  (anyone with claustrophobia would get a panic attack 
  browsing the place), and is crammed to the ceiling 
  with books you need a ladder to read the spines of 
  (so it's no picnic of acrophobics either), and you 
  begin to wonder why it's lasted as long as it has.
  But I'll call in an order for the cause.
  Finnegan 


  I was there once.  All I'll say is that it's better than Books-a-Million.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/6c9dd352/attachment.html>

From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Feb  8 15:45:04 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:45:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bawer on Hamill
In-Reply-To: <f9.36f636bb.2d567a9e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <AC6F3FE6-5A77-11D8-83D2-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 12:30 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> Bruce Bawer's take on Sam Hamill's Poets Against the War anthology is 
> in the current Hudson Review.

Care to summarize for those of us who probably won't be able to lay 
hands on the issue?

Wendy, too far from Grolier's these days



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 719 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/55030a99/attachment.bin>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb  8 17:03:38 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:03:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori-ism & the Uses of Ridicule
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040207085728.00b2ee68@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <02af01c3ee8f$6922acc0$82efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  Ah, crucial missing words have entered the debate: Jeffrey's "misuse, or bad use." 

  Every dead horse just as deserving of respectful attention as any other dead horse (oh those flies!)? No such thing as a poetaster? All pigs equal, none more-equal? Wait, could a word-salad poet ever, in the hacker-tradition (because it is oh so easy to play with net down) just be having us on? 

  Now, however and thank you Jesus,  we have "misuse, or bad use" to work with, so all that's needed for the discussion to reach full range is respect for inadvertent (?) comedy. Nothing quite so hilarious as a joke treated as if it were a Caligula-edict to be pondered by the Roman Senate. Quoting Bob G. "I consider this as good as the Jorie Graham excerpt and feel I could continue it indefinitely and possibly will." Superb.  Beyond Python. Do I hear a Bob-giggle somewhere?

  I'm not sure where in this discussion what you're saying comes in, Barry, but I wasn't giggling when I wrote what you quoted of mine.  I was having fun, though.  And I did like my fragment.  Still do, though I'm reworking it.  Will post it.

  Also, I feel obligated to add: FREE CHRIS LOTT FROM THE TOILET BOWL!  (come on, guys, that's 3-year-old-bully-level stuff, no decency at last, even when lust for the laurel wreath's at stake?).

  Please consider this seemly prose-poem above my response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.

  You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she does.
  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/f3a8f814/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb  8 17:14:16 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:14:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Challenge Taken
References: <200402062333.i16NX6bk020293@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc495d4d0610@[204.215.201.127]> <00a801c3ed6f$d728bd70$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <010101c3ed7a$bec7bd20$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <02b901c3ee90$e583fe80$82efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Graham and the "ridiculous challenge" (Finnegan)Draft Two follows, after Draft One.  I think I'm approaching a poem!  In any case, the evolution should prove interesting to those interested in the creative process, however dysfunctional.

--Bob G.


  quotients without atoms span the court   inform someone's music

  take the fifth person singular                              unfiled rain 

  only that royal court              or                moonlit partial answers

  the product                                                    disperse palaces 

  is there a name in long division for the product of the divisor and sunlight?

  May is the fifth planet from the sun                               more known to the Aztecs

  sine comes in later                          a pretext, "although," remains to be heard from

  vain loss of Latin for deriving any root                 spring is                  can anything?



  qua non refrains to be seen                 slow Aztecs                       slow remainders

  multiply orbits without naming them                                                or dividing

  formalize the concern                sine concern                                so long

  it's been so (long) as 



  as it makes                                    Aztecs had no money for "although"



  a fifth day's coloring abides the length of separation           few abide "although"


  reach it         span it                                         blending "although" and "and"

  regardless of the sun's owner, the sun's ownership

  averbal roots notwithstanding the quest                            sundrips            unrooted wondering

  five places beyond the decimal, excellence                                       Pythagorus so much

  delinquent bonds hem the sun



  (leeway?)                        so long as the harvest                               rude missives



  none minions or administrators                                Grant the effect of the dance on "although"



  only that                                     do not talk



  long for made money                         palaver                                 spend



  a ballet two places left of the decimal point                                      multiplicands of crows

  the drowse toward some inevitably disappointing remainder on the counter

                                                            block nothing

  plangent fortuities in airtight containers                             the untaught sunlight



  palomino but not risque--yet                 the formaldehyde on low                     the moon's palaver



  to wrench or plumb                 to name the product unwillfully                     a commerce



  a so long                           or

  a so long as



  Draft 2  (Note: this is becoming a poem in my series about a persona named, "Poem."  It is not intended to be a parody, just a exploration of a way of composition.)

  Poem, after a Long



  Poem, unsure whether                                     or his thoughts

  blonde quotients spanning the court                blonde music unfiled rain

  the judges take 

  nothing complete down to the robes                     postponed trigonometry lingers

  the unknown whereabouts of palaces                uncompartmentalize possibility

  is there a name in long division for the product of the divisor and sunlight?

  Poem suddenly knew;                            still, the missing          the . . .



  Poem returns, and returns.                         He takes stock:

  May is the fifth planet from the sun more known to the Aztecs than "than"

  sine comes in later                        the pretext, "although," remains to be heard from

  beyond the dividend, beyond how, Poem knows:

  spring is                can anything?               the ancient Egyptians?



  Poem returns, and returns, and returns. 

  slow Aztecs                           slow remainders 

  formalize the concern                      sine concern 

  it's been                  so long                    so (long) as 

  as it makes



  Poem understands without.                   somewhere the glide of a canoe,

  the abiding "although," the wrench and plumb 

  the lament is not his

  regardless of the moon's owner, the moon's ownership progress persists

  five places beyond the decimal, excellence, he strides Pythagorus almost

  delinquent bonds make honey                               (beeway?)                 so long as the harvest produces 

  rude missionaries of jazz             none minions or administrators 

  refusing to grant the effect of hopscotch on "although"



  only that                and a polka two places left of the decimal point 

  multiplicands of crows                       always, eventually, the felt answer,

  the drowse toward 

  the untaught sunlight



  palomino but not risque--yet                            the formaldehyde on low                          the moon's palaver

  although naming the affirmation unlawfully 

  a long, 

  so long

  as
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/9a60c1de/attachment.html>

From DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com  Sun Feb  8 17:35:06 2004
From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 04 17:35:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <200402082235.i18MZIo7096484@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:01:07 -0500 **************
Geez, Hal, we all know what you think of the activity of using
one's mind to try to understand.

What do you use yours for?  Or am I missing several layers of irony?
(Do you subscribe to the quote below?)
(I bet you respond with something cute - if you do.)
Richard
>>
>>The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When Reading
>>J's Poem
>>
>>1. What is this poem about?
>>2. What is it trying to say?
>>3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
>>4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
>>    sort of thing better?
>>
>>Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
>>                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sun Feb  8 17:42:37 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 14:42:37 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: In Memory of Seinfeld
In-Reply-To: <200402082214.i18ME2bk003847@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208143226.00b2f878@incoming.verizon.net>

At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:
>  Please consider this seemly prose-poem my
>response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.

>Bob G. wrote
>   You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she does.

a joke, Bob, a joke!

(In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the challenge
appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending  this
fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).

ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004

                      (08:34:02 0500)
From: Reply-To:
                         Contemporary [Send]
                                   Contemporary [Send]
                                         You can
1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:
3. what a fucking
                                       (org>
*Why bother?*
In the
         re. re. re.
{qua qua qua?}
                         find themselves
non-post-avant
hang her hat
                 Lester
                 Bowie

************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/8ec2bad7/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 18:48:13 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:48:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <200402082235.i18MZIo7096484@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEPOIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Congratulations on becoming spokesman for the entire list,
Dick. How'd you land that gig? (Cute enough?)

What I do with my mind is my business. You might start using
yours to read what I wrote.

Geez, here I am, responding to someone whose name I don't
even know, who doesn't sign his messages.

Hal           "Always treat language like a dangerous toy."
                                         --Anselm Hollo

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

{    ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:01:07 -0500 **************
{    Geez, Hal, we all know what you think of the activity of using
{    one's mind to try to understand.
{    
{    What do you use yours for?  Or am I missing several layers of irony?
{    (Do you subscribe to the quote below?)
{    (I bet you respond with something cute - if you do.)
{    Richard
{    >>
{    >>The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When Reading
{    >>J's Poem
{    >>
{    >>1. What is this poem about?
{    >>2. What is it trying to say?
{    >>3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
{    >>4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
{    >>    sort of thing better?
{    >>
{    >>Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
{    >>                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Feb  8 18:50:21 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:50:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040205125132.00b9a030@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <8E6A59DE-5A91-11D8-83D2-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

A "she" referring to Self may be capitalized or not.

(if the sentence begins)       She is sentenced

if the sentence begins           (tomorrow)

if it lasts a year       or 20            it will be.

If it begins            "After her release,"

no matter.      Small

letters will name her, when she thinks she's free.

Give her a little god, if it please her.

Some small a-musement           moment's   dis-traction

A little grit         under the wheel

when the road is ice.

----
Wendy

>
> ? --Jorie Graham.? from "The Reformation Journal".? *Swarm*.
>

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
       --Shunryu Suzuki
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 706 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/6f33d236/attachment.bin>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb  8 19:12:26 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:12:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: In Memory of Seinfeld
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208143226.00b2f878@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <02fb01c3eea1$674c60f0$82efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:

     Please consider this seemly prose-poem my 
    response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.


    Bob G. wrote
      You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she does.

  a joke, Bob, a joke!

  I knew you were trying to be funny, Barry.  But the prose poem was too unlike her text to work as a joke.

  (In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the challenge
  appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending  this
  fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).

  ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE

  Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 

                       (08:34:02 0500) 
  From: Reply-To: 
                          Contemporary [Send] 
                                    Contemporary [Send] 
                                          You can  
  1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:  
  3. what a fucking 
                                        (org> 
  *Why bother?* 
  In the
          re. re. re.
  {qua qua qua?} 
                          find themselves 
  non-post-avant 
  hang her hat
                  Lester 
                  Bowie 

  ************


  It has possibilities.  Maybe more than mine, but mine's now a serious attempt to make a good poem using the Graham procedures.

  --Bob G.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/a5958549/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb  8 20:20:08 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:20:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier's Bookstore
Message-ID: <59.4c44a68.2d583a48@aol.com>

(A friend of mine answered the call to arms as follows)

"After years of worrying about Groliers,
here's the way I feel now: please let Louisa go out of business so that one
of those buyers can take over the store and finally do a good job of running
it. If Louisa is in trouble, it's because she's alienated hundreds--maybe
thousands--of customers, publishers, employees, book reps, even Harvard
itself, who owns the property. In other words, she's the worst problem
Groliers has, and the sooner she's gone, the better."

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/0404547e/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb  8 20:43:35 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:43:35 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Masthead No. 8
Message-ID: <96.2e2a121.2d583fc7@aol.com>

Date:? ? Sat, 7 Feb 2004 11:05:23 +1100
From:? ? Alison Croggon <ajcroggon at BIGPOND.COM>
Subject: Masthead No. 8

(Apologies for cross-posting)

MASTHEAD LITERARY ARTS MAGAZINE

ISSUE 8

http://www.masthead.net.au/

It's been a long time coming, but I assure you, it's worth the wait.=A0 This
Masthead is the biggest yet, and features our most ambitious project so far=
:
a comprehensive retrospective of the life and work of Alaric Sumner , who
was until his death in 2000 the UK editor of this magazine.

Alaric's death brought to an untimely end the work of an artist whose sheer
variety of working methods - in performance, in visual art, in music and in
poetry - ironically obscured his achievement. Masthead guest editor Lawrenc=
e
Upton and I hope that this feature will redress a little of what has been
overlooked.=A0 And we hope that readers will enjoy the humour, audacity,
intelligence and beauty of this work as much as we do.=A0

The work is presented chronologically, and it is possible to follow the
restless evolution of his ideas to their fruition in some major later
works.=A0 As this later work especially demonstrates, Alaric died prematurely
- he had much to do, and was beginning to develop methods and styles of wor=
k
which were totally unique to him.=A0 "Remembering Alaric Sumner: A
Retrospective" is intended as a resource for anyone interested in Sumner's
work, and as well as the largest selection of his work available in one
place, we have included a series of interviews with people who knew and
worked with him, some extra documentation and a complete record of his
publications and performances.=A0

Issue 8 also features some exciting writers in their 20s: from Melbourne,
two writers deeply involved in theatre, Dan Spielman and Jasmine Chan, and
Mark Goodwin from the UK.=A0 But the young don't have it all their way:
there's a fantastic selection of poetry and prose from Michael Ayres, Trevo=
r
Joyce, Tom Lowenstein, Rebecca Seiferle, Colin Robinson, Mair=E9ad Byrne, 
Jef=
f
Harrison, Iain Britton and James Graham: which is to say, passionate,
formally questioning and various work from all around the globe, presented
here for your pleasure and delight.

Masthead at last has its own domain name at www.masthead.net.au, although
the archives of the past eight issues - Issues 1-7 plus the American Terror
special - will remain at the old site at http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2=
/
until further notice.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? =20
Alison Croggon? ? =20
Editor? ? ? ? ? ? =20
February 7 2004



Alison Croggon

Editor, Masthead=20
http://www.masthead.net.au

Home page
http://www.alisoncroggon.com

Blog
http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/4a6be360/attachment.html>

From chryss at silcom.com  Sun Feb  8 21:36:34 2004
From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:36:34 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: In Memory of Seinfeld
In-Reply-To: <02fb01c3eea1$674c60f0$82efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <BC4C3232.CBD%chryss@silcom.com>

Speaking of, has anyone seen  Lost in Translation?


On 2/8/04 4:12 PM, "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> 
>  
>> At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:
>>>  Please consider this seemly prose-poem my
>>> response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.
>> 
>>> Bob G. wrote
>>>   You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she does.
>> 
>> a joke, Bob, a joke!
>> I knew you were trying to be funny, Barry.  But the prose poem was too unlike
>> her text to work as a joke.
>> 
>> (In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the challenge
>> appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending  this
>> fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).
>> 
>> ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE
>> 
>> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004
>> 
>>                      (08:34:02 0500)
>> From: Reply-To: 
>>                         Contemporary [Send]
>>                                   Contemporary [Send]
>>                                         You can
>> 1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:
>> 3. what a fucking
>>                                       (org>
>> *Why bother?* 
>> In the
>>         re. re. re.
>> {qua qua qua?} 
>>                         find themselves
>> non-post-avant 
>> hang her hat
>>                 Lester
>>                 Bowie
>> 
>> ************
>>  
>> It has possibilities.  Maybe more than mine, but mine's now a serious attempt
>> to make a good poem using the Graham procedures.
>>  
>> --Bob G.
>>  
>>  
> 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/c5eb2aa3/attachment.html>

From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Feb  8 10:55:41 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:55:41 +0800
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story  From: Wendy Battin
In-Reply-To: <200402090236.i192a2bk005561@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200402090236.i192a2bk005561@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100301bc4c06d8c841@[204.215.201.69]>

Thanks for this contribution.

Awaiting Lott's.  Let's see it.

Maybe he can concoct one from ranted scatologies at the police state. 
Poor Kafka Lott trapped in Amerika hating Bush hating me: "Saddam, 
whozat?"

Or not.  Then.  I'll keep my word.

Just so long.  Then out it goes.

RD





At 09:36 PM -0500 2/8/04, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:50:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
>From: Wendy Battin <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--Apple-Mail-6--807226409
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset=ISO-8859-1;
>	format=flowed
>
>A "she" referring to Self may be capitalized or not.
>
>(if the sentence begins)       She is sentenced
>
>if the sentence begins           (tomorrow)
>
>if it lasts a year       or 20            it will be.
>
>If it begins            "After her release,"
>
>no matter.      Small
>
>letters will name her, when she thinks she's free.
>
>Give her a little god, if it please her.
>
>Some small a-musement           moment's   dis-traction
>
>A little grit         under the wheel
>
>when the road is ice.
>
>----
>Wendy
>
>>
>>  =A0 --Jorie Graham.=A0 from "The Reformation Journal".=A0 *Swarm*.
>>
>
>Wendy Battin
>wjbat at conncoll.edu
>
>Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
>        --Shunryu Suzuki
>
>--Apple-Mail-6--807226409
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Type: text/enriched;
>	charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>A "she" referring to Self may be capitalized or not.
>
>
>(if the sentence begins)       She is sentenced
>
>
>if the sentence begins           (tomorrow)
>
>
>if it lasts a year       or 20            it will be.
>
>
>If it begins            "After her release,"
>
>
>no matter.      Small
>
>
>letters will name her, when she thinks she's free.
>
>
>Give her a little god, if it please her.
>
>
>Some small a-musement           moment's   dis-traction
>
>
>A little grit         under the wheel    =20
>
>
>when the road is ice.
>
>
>----
>
>Wendy
>
>
><excerpt>
>
>=A0 --Jorie Graham.=A0 from "The Reformation Journal".=A0 *Swarm*.
>
>
></excerpt>
>
>Wendy Battin
>
>wjbat at conncoll.edu
>
>
>Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
>
>       --Shunryu Suzuki
>
>--Apple-Mail-6--807226409--





>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. The story of Jorie (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
>    2. Re: In Memory of Seinfeld (Barry Spacks)
>    3. RE: The story of Jorie (Halvard Johnson)
>    4. Re: Re: Jori Un-Story (Wendy Battin)
>    5. Re: Re: In Memory of Seinfeld (Bob Grumman)
>    6. Re: Grolier's Bookstore (JforJames at aol.com)
>    7. Masthead No. 8 (JforJames at aol.com)
>    8. Re: Re: In Memory of Seinfeld (Chryss Yost)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 04 17:35:06 EST
>From: DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:01:07 -0500 **************
>Geez, Hal, we all know what you think of the activity of using
>one's mind to try to understand.
>
>What do you use yours for?  Or am I missing several layers of irony?
>(Do you subscribe to the quote below?)
>(I bet you respond with something cute - if you do.)
>Richard
>>>
>>>The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need When Reading
>>>J's Poem
>>>
>>>1. What is this poem about?
>>>2. What is it trying to say?
>>>3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
>>>4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
>>>     sort of thing better?
>  >>
>>>Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
>>>                  Like a memory, in museums . . ."
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 14:42:37 -0800
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>From: Barry Spacks <barry.spacks at verizon.net>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: In Memory of Seinfeld
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>--=====================_15012146==_.ALT
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:
>  >  Please consider this seemly prose-poem my
>  >response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.
>
>  >Bob G. wrote
>>    You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she does.
>
>a joke, Bob, a joke!
>
>(In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the challenge
>appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending  this
>fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).
>
>ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE
>
>Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004
>
>                       (08:34:02 0500)
>From: Reply-To:
>                          Contemporary [Send]
>                                    Contemporary [Send]
>                                          You can
>1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:
>3. what a fucking
>                                        (org>
>*Why bother?*
>In the
>          re. re. re.
>{qua qua qua?}
>                          find themselves
>non-post-avant
>hang her hat
>                  Lester
>                  Bowie
>
>************
>
>--=====================_15012146==_.ALT
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
>
><html>
><font size=3>At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:<br>
><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&nbsp;Please consider this seemly
>prose-poem my <br>
>response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.</blockquote><br>
><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Bob G. wrote<br>
>&nbsp; You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she
>does.</font></blockquote><br>
>a joke, Bob, a joke!<br><br>
>(In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the
>challenge<br>
>appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending&nbsp;
>this<br>
>fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).<br><br>
><font size=4>ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE<br><br>
>Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 <br><br>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
>(08:34:02 0500) <br>
>From: Reply-To: <br>
><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Contemporary
>[Send] <br>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
>Contemporary [Send] <br>
><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>You
>can&nbsp; <br>
>1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:&nbsp; <br>
>3. what a fucking <br>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
>(org&gt; <br>
>*Why bother?* <br>
>In the<br>
><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>re. re.
>re.<br>
>{qua qua qua?} <br>
><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>find
>themselves <br>
>non-post-avant <br>
>hang her hat<br>
><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Lester
><br>
><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Bowie
><br><br>
>************<br>
></font></html>
>
>--=====================_15012146==_.ALT--
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:48:13 -0500
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Congratulations on becoming spokesman for the entire list,
>Dick. How'd you land that gig? (Cute enough?)
>
>What I do with my mind is my business. You might start using
>yours to read what I wrote.
>
>Geez, here I am, responding to someone whose name I don't
>even know, who doesn't sign his messages.
>
>Hal           "Always treat language like a dangerous toy."
>                                          --Anselm Hollo
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>{    ***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:01:07 -0500 
>**************
>{    Geez, Hal, we all know what you think of the activity of using
>{    one's mind to try to understand.
>{   
>{    What do you use yours for?  Or am I missing several layers of irony?
>{    (Do you subscribe to the quote below?)
>{    (I bet you respond with something cute - if you do.)
>{    Richard
>{    >>
>{    >>The story of JorieA Short List of Questions One Doesn't Need 
>When Reading
>{    >>J's Poem
>{    >>
>{    >>1. What is this poem about?
>{    >>2. What is it trying to say?
>{    >>3. What was in J's mind when writing it?
>{    >>4. Is there anyone around who is doing this
>{    >>    sort of thing better?
>{    >>
>{    >>Hal           "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs,
>{    >>                 Like a memory, in museums . . ."
>{    _______________________________________________
>{    New-Poetry mailing list
>{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:50:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
>From: Wendy Battin <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--Apple-Mail-6--807226409
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset=ISO-8859-1;
>	format=flowed
>
>A "she" referring to Self may be capitalized or not.
>
>(if the sentence begins)       She is sentenced
>
>if the sentence begins           (tomorrow)
>
>if it lasts a year       or 20            it will be.
>
>If it begins            "After her release,"
>
>no matter.      Small
>
>letters will name her, when she thinks she's free.
>
>Give her a little god, if it please her.
>
>Some small a-musement           moment's   dis-traction
>
>A little grit         under the wheel
>
>when the road is ice.
>
>----
>Wendy
>
>>
>>  =A0 --Jorie Graham.=A0 from "The Reformation Journal".=A0 *Swarm*.
>>
>
>Wendy Battin
>wjbat at conncoll.edu
>
>Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
>        --Shunryu Suzuki
>
>--Apple-Mail-6--807226409
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Type: text/enriched;
>	charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>A "she" referring to Self may be capitalized or not.
>
>
>(if the sentence begins)       She is sentenced
>
>
>if the sentence begins           (tomorrow)
>
>
>if it lasts a year       or 20            it will be.
>
>
>If it begins            "After her release,"
>
>
>no matter.      Small
>
>
>letters will name her, when she thinks she's free.
>
>
>Give her a little god, if it please her.
>
>
>Some small a-musement           moment's   dis-traction
>
>
>A little grit         under the wheel    =20
>
>
>when the road is ice.
>
>
>----
>
>Wendy
>
>
><excerpt>
>
>=A0 --Jorie Graham.=A0 from "The Reformation Journal".=A0 *Swarm*.
>
>
></excerpt>
>
>Wendy Battin
>
>wjbat at conncoll.edu
>
>
>Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
>
>       --Shunryu Suzuki
>
>--Apple-Mail-6--807226409--
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: In Memory of Seinfeld
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:12:26 -0500
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_02F8_01C3EE77.7CECF9D0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>
>   At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:
>
>      Please consider this seemly prose-poem my=20
>     response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.
>
>
>     Bob G. wrote
>       You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she =
>does.
>
>   a joke, Bob, a joke!
>
>   I knew you were trying to be funny, Barry.  But the prose poem was too =
>unlike her text to work as a joke.
>
>   (In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the =
>challenge
>   appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending  this
>   fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).
>
>   ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE
>
>   Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004=20
>
>                        (08:34:02 0500)=20
>   From: Reply-To:=20
>                           Contemporary [Send]=20
>                                     Contemporary [Send]=20
>                                           You can =20
>   1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re: =20
>   3. what a fucking=20
>                                         (org>=20
>   *Why bother?*=20
>   In the
>           re. re. re.
>   {qua qua qua?}=20
>                           find themselves=20
>   non-post-avant=20
>   hang her hat
>                   Lester=20
>                   Bowie=20
>
>   ************
>
>
>   It has possibilities.  Maybe more than mine, but mine's now a serious =
>attempt to make a good poem using the Graham procedures.
>
>   --Bob G.
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_02F8_01C3EE77.7CECF9D0
>Content-Type: text/html;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">At=20
>   05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:<BR>
>   <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">&nbsp;Please consider =
>this seemly=20
>     prose-poem my <BR>response to the challenge to do as well as=20
>   Jori.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
>   <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">Bob G. =
>wrote<BR>&nbsp; You're=20
>     supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she =
>does.</BLOCKQUOTE>
>   <DIV><BR>a joke, Bob, a joke!<BR></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I knew you were trying to be funny, =
>Barry.&nbsp; But the=20
>   prose poem was too unlike her text to work as a =
>joke.</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
>   face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>(In fact, I posted my =
>effort *in=20
>   correct form* even before the challenge<BR>appeared. I repeat it =
>below. My=20
>   plan is to keep extending&nbsp; this<BR>fascinating poem eternally, =
>will try=20
>   to keep you all informed).<BR><BR><FONT size=3D4>ABBREVIATED AND MADE=20
>   SUAVE<BR><BR>Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004=20
>   =
><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>   (08:34:02 0500) <BR>From: Reply-To:=20
>   =
><BR><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB=
>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB>Contemporary=20
>   [Send]=20
>   =
><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
>p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>   Contemporary [Send]=20
>   =
><BR><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB=
>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
>nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB>You=20
>   can&nbsp; <BR>1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:&nbsp; <BR>3. what a fucking=20
>   =
><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
>p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;&nbsp;=20
>   (org&gt; <BR>*Why bother?* <BR>In=20
>   =
>the<BR><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB>re.=
>  re.=20
>   re.<BR>{qua qua qua?}=20
>   =
><BR><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB=
>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB>find=20
>   themselves <BR>non-post-avant <BR>hang her=20
>   =
>hat<BR><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-=
>TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB>Lester=20
>   =
><BR><X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB><X-TAB=
>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB>Bowie=20
>   <BR><BR>************<BR></FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT size=3D4><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT size=3D4><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It has =
>possibilities.&nbsp; Maybe=20
>   more than mine, but mine's now a serious attempt to make a good poem =
>using the=20
>   Graham procedures.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--Bob G.</FONT></DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT size=3D4><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>   <DIV><FONT size=3D4><FONT face=3DArial=20
>size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_02F8_01C3EE77.7CECF9D0--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:20:08 EST
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grolier's Bookstore
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--part1_59.4c44a68.2d583a48_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>(A friend of mine answered the call to arms as follows)
>
>"After years of worrying about Groliers,
>here's the way I feel now: please let Louisa go out of business so that one
>of those buyers can take over the store and finally do a good job of running
>it. If Louisa is in trouble, it's because she's alienated hundreds--maybe
>thousands--of customers, publishers, employees, book reps, even Harvard
>itself, who owns the property. In other words, she's the worst problem
>Groliers has, and the sooner she's gone, the better."
>
>
>--part1_59.4c44a68.2d583a48_boundary
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
>=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">(A friend of mine answered the call=
>  to arms as follows)<BR>
><BR>
>"After years of worrying about Groliers,<BR>
>here's the way I feel now: please let Louisa go out of business so that one<=
>BR>
>of those buyers can take over the store and finally do a good job of running=
><BR>
>it. If Louisa is in trouble, it's because she's alienated hundreds--maybe<BR=
>>
>thousands--of customers, publishers, employees, book reps, even Harvard<BR>
>itself, who owns the property. In other words, she's the worst problem<BR>
>Groliers has, and the sooner she's gone, the better."<BR>
><BR>
></FONT></HTML>
>--part1_59.4c44a68.2d583a48_boundary--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:43:35 EST
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Masthead No. 8
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--part1_96.2e2a121.2d583fc7_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Date:=A0 =A0 Sat, 7 Feb 2004 11:05:23 +1100
>From:=A0 =A0 Alison Croggon <ajcroggon at BIGPOND.COM>
>Subject: Masthead No. 8
>
>(Apologies for cross-posting)
>
>MASTHEAD LITERARY ARTS MAGAZINE
>
>ISSUE 8
>
>http://www.masthead.net.au/
>
>It's been a long time coming, but I assure you, it's worth the wait.=3DA0 Th=
>is
>Masthead is the biggest yet, and features our most ambitious project so far=
>=3D
>:
>a comprehensive retrospective of the life and work of Alaric Sumner , who
>was until his death in 2000 the UK editor of this magazine.
>
>Alaric's death brought to an untimely end the work of an artist whose sheer
>variety of working methods - in performance, in visual art, in music and in
>poetry - ironically obscured his achievement. Masthead guest editor Lawrenc=
>=3D
>e
>Upton and I hope that this feature will redress a little of what has been
>overlooked.=3DA0 And we hope that readers will enjoy the humour, audacity,
>intelligence and beauty of this work as much as we do.=3DA0
>
>The work is presented chronologically, and it is possible to follow the
>restless evolution of his ideas to their fruition in some major later
>works.=3DA0 As this later work especially demonstrates, Alaric died prematur=
>ely
>- he had much to do, and was beginning to develop methods and styles of wor=
>=3D
>k
>which were totally unique to him.=3DA0 "Remembering Alaric Sumner: A
>Retrospective" is intended as a resource for anyone interested in Sumner's
>work, and as well as the largest selection of his work available in one
>place, we have included a series of interviews with people who knew and
>worked with him, some extra documentation and a complete record of his
>publications and performances.=3DA0
>
>Issue 8 also features some exciting writers in their 20s: from Melbourne,
>two writers deeply involved in theatre, Dan Spielman and Jasmine Chan, and
>Mark Goodwin from the UK.=3DA0 But the young don't have it all their way:
>there's a fantastic selection of poetry and prose from Michael Ayres, Trevo=
>=3D
>r
>Joyce, Tom Lowenstein, Rebecca Seiferle, Colin Robinson, Mair=3DE9ad Byrne,=20
>Jef=3D
>f
>Harrison, Iain Britton and James Graham: which is to say, passionate,
>formally questioning and various work from all around the globe, presented
>here for your pleasure and delight.
>
>Masthead at last has its own domain name at www.masthead.net.au, although
>the archives of the past eight issues - Issues 1-7 plus the American Terror
>special - will remain at the old site at http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2=
>=3D
>/
>until further notice.
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D20
>Alison Croggon=A0 =A0 =3D20
>Editor=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D20
>February 7 2004
>
>
>
>Alison Croggon
>
>Editor, Masthead=3D20
>http://www.masthead.net.au
>
>Home page
>http://www.alisoncroggon.com
>
>Blog
>http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com
>
>
>--part1_96.2e2a121.2d583fc7_boundary
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
>=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Date:=A0 =A0 Sat, 7 Feb 2004 11:05:=
>23 +1100<BR>
>From:=A0 =A0 Alison Croggon &lt;ajcroggon at BIGPOND.COM&gt;<BR>
>Subject: Masthead No. 8<BR>
><BR>
>(Apologies for cross-posting)<BR>
><BR>
>MASTHEAD LITERARY ARTS MAGAZINE<BR>
><BR>
>ISSUE 8<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.masthead.net.au/<BR>
><BR>
>It's been a long time coming, but I assure you, it's worth the wait.=3DA0 Th=
>is<BR>
>Masthead is the biggest yet, and features our most ambitious project so far=
>=3D<BR>
>:<BR>
>a comprehensive retrospective of the life and work of Alaric Sumner , who<BR=
>>
>was until his death in 2000 the UK editor of this magazine.<BR>
><BR>
>Alaric's death brought to an untimely end the work of an artist whose sheer<=
>BR>
>variety of working methods - in performance, in visual art, in music and in<=
>BR>
>poetry - ironically obscured his achievement. Masthead guest editor Lawrenc=
>=3D<BR>
>e<BR>
>Upton and I hope that this feature will redress a little of what has been<BR=
>>
>overlooked.=3DA0 And we hope that readers will enjoy the humour, audacity,<B=
>R>
>intelligence and beauty of this work as much as we do.=3DA0<BR>
><BR>
>The work is presented chronologically, and it is possible to follow the<BR>
>restless evolution of his ideas to their fruition in some major later<BR>
>works.=3DA0 As this later work especially demonstrates, Alaric died prematur=
>ely<BR>
>- he had much to do, and was beginning to develop methods and styles of wor=
>=3D<BR>
>k<BR>
>which were totally unique to him.=3DA0 "Remembering Alaric Sumner: A<BR>
>Retrospective" is intended as a resource for anyone interested in Sumner's<B=
>R>
>work, and as well as the largest selection of his work available in one<BR>
>place, we have included a series of interviews with people who knew and<BR>
>worked with him, some extra documentation and a complete record of his<BR>
>publications and performances.=3DA0<BR>
><BR>
>Issue 8 also features some exciting writers in their 20s: from Melbourne,<BR=
>>
>two writers deeply involved in theatre, Dan Spielman and Jasmine Chan, and<B=
>R>
>Mark Goodwin from the UK.=3DA0 But the young don't have it all their way:<BR=
>>
>there's a fantastic selection of poetry and prose from Michael Ayres, Trevo=
>=3D<BR>
>r<BR>
>Joyce, Tom Lowenstein, Rebecca Seiferle, Colin Robinson, Mair=3DE9ad 
>Byrne,=20=
>Jef=3D<BR>
>f<BR>
>Harrison, Iain Britton and James Graham: which is to say, passionate,<BR>
>formally questioning and various work from all around the globe, presented<B=
>R>
>here for your pleasure and delight.<BR>
><BR>
>Masthead at last has its own domain name at www.masthead.net.au, although<BR=
>>
>the archives of the past eight issues - Issues 1-7 plus the American Terror<=
>BR>
>special - will remain at the old site at http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2=
>=3D<BR>
>/<BR>
>until further notice.<BR>
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D20<BR>
>Alison Croggon=A0 =A0 =3D20<BR>
>Editor=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D20<BR>
>February 7 2004<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Alison Croggon<BR>
><BR>
>Editor, Masthead=3D20<BR>
>http://www.masthead.net.au<BR>
><BR>
>Home page<BR>
>http://www.alisoncroggon.com<BR>
><BR>
>Blog<BR>
>http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com<BR>
><BR>
></FONT></HTML>
>--part1_96.2e2a121.2d583fc7_boundary--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:36:34 -0800
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: In Memory of Seinfeld
>From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>>  This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
>--B_3159110194_5685971
>Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>
>Speaking of, has anyone seen  Lost in Translation?
>
>
>On 2/8/04 4:12 PM, "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> 
>>>  At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote:
>>>>   Please consider this seemly prose-poem my
>>>>  response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.
>>>
>>>>  Bob G. wrote
>>>>    You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she does.
>>>
>>>  a joke, Bob, a joke!
>>>  I knew you were trying to be funny, Barry.  But the prose poem 
>>>was too unlike
>>>  her text to work as a joke.
>>>
>>>  (In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the challenge
>>>  appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending  this
>>>  fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).
>>>
>>>  ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE
>>>
>>>  Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004
>>>
>>>                       (08:34:02 0500)
>>>  From: Reply-To:
>>>                          Contemporary [Send]
>>>                                    Contemporary [Send]
>>>                                          You can
>>>  1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re:
>>>  3. what a fucking
>>>                                        (org>
>>>  *Why bother?*
>>>  In the
>>>          re. re. re.
>>>  {qua qua qua?}
>>>                          find themselves
>>>  non-post-avant
>>>  hang her hat
>>>                  Lester
>>>                  Bowie
>>>
>>>  ************
>>> 
>>>  It has possibilities.  Maybe more than mine, but mine's now a 
>>>serious attempt
>>>  to make a good poem using the Graham procedures.
>>> 
>>>  --Bob G.
>>> 
>>> 
>>
>
>
>
>--B_3159110194_5685971
>Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>Re: [New-Poetry] Re: In Memory of Seinfeld</TITLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">Speaking of, has anyone seen &nbsp;Lost in Translation=
>?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>On 2/8/04 4:12 PM, &quot;Bob Grumman&quot; &lt;bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net&gt;=
>  wrote:<BR>
><BR>
></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
>&nbsp;<BR>
></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">At 05:14 PM 2/8/2004 -0500, I wrote=
>:<BR>
></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> Please consider this seemly prose-=
>poem my <BR>
>response to the challenge to do as well as Jori.<BR>
></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">Bob G. wrote<BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;You're supposed to do it with fragments and jump cuts, like she=
>  does.<BR>
></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
>a joke, Bob, a joke!<BR>
></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I knew you were trying to be funny, Barry. &nbsp;=
>But the prose poem was too unlike her text to work as a joke.<BR>
></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
>(In fact, I posted my effort *in correct form* even before the challenge<BR=
>>
>appeared. I repeat it below. My plan is to keep extending &nbsp;this<BR>
>fascinating poem eternally, will try to keep you all informed).<BR>
><BR>
><FONT SIZE=3D"4">ABBREVIATED AND MADE SUAVE<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 <BR>
><BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(08:34:02 0500) <BR>
>From: Reply-To: <BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Contemp=
>orary [Send] <BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
>nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Contemporary [Send] <BR=
>>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
>nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can &nbsp;<BR>
>1. Re: 2. Re: 3. Re: &nbsp;<BR>
>3. what a fucking <BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
>nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;(org&gt; <BR>
>*Why bother?* <BR>
>In the<BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;re. re. re.<BR>
>{qua qua qua?} <BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;find th=
>emselves <BR>
>non-post-avant <BR>
>hang her hat<BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Lester <BR>
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
>sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Bowie <BR>
><BR>
>************<BR>
></FONT> <BR>
></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">It has possibilities. 
>&nbsp;Maybe =
>more than mine, but mine's now a serious attempt to make a good poem using t=
>he Graham procedures.<BR>
></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">--Bob G.<BR>
></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
><FONT SIZE=3D"4"> <BR>
></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
></FONT>
></BODY>
></HTML>
>
>
>--B_3159110194_5685971--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest


-- 


From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Feb  9 07:48:12 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:48:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c3ef0a$fdadc0c0$6501a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

------------------------------
The 100,000th visitor 
to Silliman's Blog
was Geoffrey Gazta 
of Kenmore, NY.
------------------------------

RECENT TOPICS:

Unpacking my library:
Poets acquiring books

My walk with Gil
(a remembrance of Gil Ott)

Chax Press
& the poetry of Charles Alexander

kari edwards:
Identarian poetics
when identity is up for grabs

Robert Creeley's
If I were writing this

Brian Kim Stephens: 
post-avant jai-lai on a field of quietude

Counting down to 100K

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Ray Bianchi on Chicago

Ken James on the structure of cinema

Curtis Faville on Frank Lloyd Wright

Experience & expectation,
novelty & structure (in poetry, cinema, life.)

My visit to Chicago

Coming to terms with elders:
Ezra Pound's fascist cantos &
Michael Rothenberg channeling Philip Whalen

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb  9 07:55:56 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 07:55:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <005101c3ecd7$d17e8780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <40273D0C.17704.256AA7@localhost>

On 6 Feb 2004 at 12:36, TheOldMole wrote:
> As someone very much outside of the parallel tradition, I tried once
> (because was asked) to review a book of Joan Retallack's poetry, and I
> tried as best I could to take it seriously and approach it on its own
> terms.

The safety of certain failure is an allure a lot of poets seem to 
seek. No one can be blamed for failing to write a good poem when the 
very techniques one is using to try are guaranteed to defeat one's 
best efforts. 

> I suspect this is going to sit well within Hal's list of ways it's not
> worth approaching a poem, but if anyone is interested, it's at
> http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards/retallack.html

It's hard to imagine the way Hal thinks a poem is worth approaching, 
given the ways he's said it's not worth approaching. What *IS* the 
way, Hal, that you recommend, now that you've said so many ways are 
not worthy?

Marcus








From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 08:14:48 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:14:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <40273D0C.17704.256AA7@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEAHIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    It's hard to imagine the way Hal thinks a poem is worth approaching, 
{    given the ways he's said it's not worth approaching. What *IS* the 
{    way, Hal, that you recommend, now that you've said so many ways are 
{    not worthy?
{    
{    Marcus

What often works for me is openness--an open mind, a willingness to
defer judgment (perhaps forever), a reluctance to compare. A sense of 
adventure also helps.

And, once again, I've nothing against questions. What I suggested was that
those listed questions were not particularly helpful in approaching J's poem.
Worthiness has nothing to do with it.

Hal         "Disorder is merely the order you
               are not looking for."
                                   --Henri Bergson
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb  9 09:18:28 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:18:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <009601c3ece3$271959d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40275064.9337.70F98C@localhost>

> > On 5 Feb 2004 at 14:59, Chris Lott wrote:
> > > If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must be
> > > better, eh? Groundbreaking and amazing.

Marcus Bales:
> > Right -- why bother to stop at letters? what about fragments of
> > letters? what about just spattering the page with ink and asking
> > people what they see ... oh, wait. That's been done, too. So is all
> > art just therapy?

On 6 Feb 2004 at 13:58, Bob Grumman wrote:
> No, Marcus, it's all simple-minded, perverse, completely worthless
> exhibitionism--except when it does nothing that wasn't being done a
> hundred or more years ago.<<

I've read this several times but, I'm forced to admit, I don't get 
it. The first phrase seems to be a sarcasm, but the second seems to 
negate its own premise. Perhaps there's a typo, here -- you've left 
out a word or included one you meant to edit?

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb  9 09:18:28 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:18:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <00b601c3ece5$a7a9b9d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <40275064.17640.70FBEF@localhost>

Chris Lott:
> > > > If cutting it up is good, then cutting it up even smaller must
> > > > be better, eh?
> >
> > Grumman:
> > > How do you find me suggesting that, Chris?

Marcus Bales:
> > Once again pretending there is no implication or inference possible.
> > How do you determine whether to eat or even breathe, Bob, if you
> > can't determine by inference whether the implications of your hunger
> > are that you'll starve to death if you don't eat?

On 6 Feb 2004 at 14:15, Bob Grumman wrote:
> A non-verosopath would show in clear language how my saying that some
> poets had gone further in cutting up texts than Graham was akin to my
> suggesting that because cutting up texts was good, cutting texts up
> into smaller pieces was better.<

Bob Grumman:
> Verosopaths rarely do anything but make insulting assertions.

Once again pretending that implication and inference don't exist, eh, 
Bob? Perhaps if you were to say what you mean, or at least accept 
that others are going to expect you to mean what you say, you'd be 
less inclined to respond with merely personal attacks, and discuss 
the issues you raise without reference to your self. You are not your 
opinions, and your opinions are not you -- keep this in mind and 
you'll be able to see that people who disagree with your opinions are 
not attacking you personally.





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb  9 09:18:28 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:18:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOELFIEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <1c3.14b067e3.2d5545ee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40275064.23990.70FAE0@localhost>

Jeffrey Levine: 
> Well, there's no arguing with this, Marcus, not really. Every 
> geometry needs it's starting point. Reject that, reject the geometry.<

Perhaps that's all it is. Like Tad, I think poets are not in the 
Rorschach business -- and those who are, or claim they are, are 
simply not writing poems, they're producing blots in blurts for 
others to react to. It's not immoral to blurt or blot, but I don't 
see any reason to call it poetry, unless you're also willing to say 
that the ravings of lunatics and the actions of criminals are also 
poems. I mean, where do you draw the line? If you draw no line, then 
you have to admit to such absurdities as the poetry of rape or 
torture or murder. If you do draw a line, then you have to admit that 
some things are just not poems.

> ... I'm not
> arguing one takes a fragmentary world and renders it more faithfully
> fragmentary. Just the opposite, in fact.<<

Well, that's mighty Bush Adminstration of you, Jeffrey: the notion 
seems to be that no matter what one does or says, if one simply 
blankly denies that one has done it, then one hasn't. Your thesis was 
that the fragmentariness of the Graham poem takes a fragmentary world 
and renders it more faithfully fragmentary; now you say you said just 
the opposite. But what would the opposite be? That the Graham poem is 
coherent and linear but it is the reader's immersion in the 
fragmentary that makes coherent linearity seem fragmentary? That 
reality is coherent and linear and the Graham poem's fragmentariness 
takes that coherence and linearity and renders it fragmentary? What 
can "just the opposite, in fact" possibly mean in this context?

Or are you out-Jorieing Jorie? Is it "just a joke"?

> But anyway, the sort of
> poetry we're talking about (well, I'm talking about), is a huge,
> stinking, dead horse many are compelled to kick.<<

As my father used to say, "Well, if you don't want dead horses 
beaten, don't drag them into the parlor and hand me a whip."

> And you correctly
> suggest that the central bone of fragmentation is that it demands
> something (something more) from the reader: yop. Guilty. It asks the
> reader to spend some time, to consider what's on the page critically,
> to test that against some kind of an intellectual or emotional context
> -- in short, to get involved.<<

In contrast to, say, what Tennyson or Swinburne or Keats or Byron or 
Dryden or Shakespeare or Chaucer ask? 

Of course what those worthies ask is quite a bit more than Jorie 
Graham asks. Graham clearly doesn't care whether the reader has ever 
heard of Atalanta or Julius Caesar or the minimum wage in Greece -- 
or anything else, either. As a Rorschach blot in words it may be 
useful to a therapist who has access to how thousands of others have 
reacted to it, but even that seems doubtful since it seems 
unbelieveable that thousands of people have read her text in the 
first place, much less under conditions that would make it a useful 
therapeutic tool.

> But, forgive, it seems to me that you're
> barking up the wrong tree. If one is so fixed on what a poem is
> supposed to be, how can one possibly pay attention to what it is. If
> you're stuck on a travel-bureau image of the Renaissance, how can you
> get past it. Obviously -- obviously -- if one condemns a
> contemporary form based on a value
> system that recognizes only a certain kind of literal representation
> and traditional workmanship -- the limitations many seem to want to
> impose on poetry -- one overlooks the fact that these very values
> reflect a world quite distant from our own.<<

This is either a rejection of the possibility of reading those 
earlier poems at all because we're not in the context in which they 
were written, or of the possibility of imaginatively entering into 
that context, or it is merely another claim that Graham's fragmented 
text accurately renders our fragmented world -- a proposition you've 
denied, though not very convincingly.

What is it that you really want to claim for this, and similar, 
texts? If you are merely arguing that they are entitled to be called 
"poems" on Hal's grounds that everything is a poem that someone 
claims is one, then you're faced with the obnoxious necessity of the 
poetry of rape, or of torture, or of murder, and the like, and what 
has that gained you?  If you are arguing that these are important and 
significant works of art -- necessarily that they are "good poems" -- 
then you simply haven't made your case, it seems to me, because you 
haven't offered the grounds on which you judge good from bad in 
poetry.

> A fragmented poetry struggles with modern concerns.<<

But this is just the claim that a fragmented poem more accurately 
renders the fragmented world view! You've denied that that's the 
case. You seem to be trying to have it both ways.

> Why wouldn't its
> language be a complex and layered as its worldview?<

But "complex and layered" is not the same as "fragmented" -- if it 
were, every congeries of parts would be a 747. You are trying to flit 
past the assumption that "fragmented" means "complex and layered" and 
it's just not so. In fact, it seems to me, that "layered and complex" 
is just exactly what "fragmented" is anything but. 

> Our thinking has
> been profoundly transformed since the 16th century, in every way.
> Freudian psychology was the catalytic of modernism, as were the theory
> of relativity and practice of photography, not to mention two world
> wars, the advent of mass communication, the possibility of nuclear
> holocaust.<

There was always the possibility of holocaust -- bubonic plague leaps 
to mind. Even in 1918 there was the Spanish Flu that killed millions 
around the world. The threat of holocaust is ever-present in the 
human condition. I'm not persuaded that Freud's impact was as 
profound as all that: psychology is still an inferential explanation 
after the fact, and not a scientific predictor within anything like a 
reasonable margin of error. The ego, superego, and id are not any 
more predictive than the four humors were.

But your list itself as a whole actually argues against your point 
more profoundly than my taking it apart in detail. Psychology, 
physics, war, communications, all are the result of elites who try to 
impose not fragmentariness but coherence at least, and often order, 
on the world. The underlying urge is for coherence and linearity in 
all the achievements of modernity; the urge is for explanation, not 
fragmentation. And in no case is it true that the people who knew the 
least about it did the most to explain it. 

> Ours is not a time that will accept the tidy verities of an
> opaque, one-point perspective, limited in time and space. The real
> paucity of culture would be to attempt it.<<

On the contrary, the explicit search is for a unified field theory, 
for the one explanation that will in fact show how this all came 
about. The underlying urge of modernity is the urge to explain, not 
an inclination to float languidly amid the misunderstood fragments.

> Fragmented poetry is a
> dialogue with the past, and thank heavens for that.<

Oh, pfui -- it's no such thing. It's the denial of any dialogue with 
the past; it's pretending that such a dialogue is not only 
unnecessary but impossible. You were just talking about how totally 
you claim that the world has changed since the 16th century, with the 
clear implication that nothing written before that is now 
comprehensible to the modern mind. And, if you witness such claims as 
Jim Cervantes's, you can see that contemporary editors and teachers 
are claiming that even as recent a figure as Tennyson is not worth 
reading.

> ... The
> universal truth of creativity (pardon the presumptuousness - - though
> I suppose that plea should have gone front and center), is that ideas
> strive for life, just as artists strive to midwife them into
> comprehensible flesh. This labor is at the heart of what's new. Our
> art is its contentious offspring. <<

This is indeed merely pretentious. It is not artists who are either 
having the centrally modern ideas, nor mid-wifing them into 
comprehension. No scientist, no thoeorist in any field, not even in 
poetry itself, publishes his or her work in verse, or in fragmented 
texts. They all use prose -- and as coherent and as linear prose as 
they can write. Of course, not all of them either think or write 
clearly, but they do try. And what they try is to present coherent 
and linear accounts that are warranted by the evidentiary means of 
logic and reasoning. They don't stick knives in dictionaries at 
random in order to choose their words; they don't wallpaper their 
drafts to the wall, rip them away, and use only what's left, they 
don't do ANY of the wildly disparate and astonishingly ineffective 
things that those who claim to be contemporary or avant garde poets 
do. Instead, they try to think well and write well, even though they 
often fail. And when they fail, there is a clear standard of 
reproducibility that others can use to test the thinking against.

There is nothing like that in poetry, in art. Art can make no claim 
whatever to midwifing ideas into comprehension -- and particularly 
when what the artist is clearly doing is fragmentary and 
incomprehensible.

> If fragmented poetry isn't pretty, isn't peaceful, or doesn't go with
> the furniture; if it doesn't happen to suit some inherited standard of
> aristocratic propriety, then maybe that's just too bad.<<

It's not a matter of pretty, peaceful, or going with the furniture; 
it's a matter of examining the claim that fragmented poetry makes for 
itself, and that you make for it. You simultaneously deny and affirm 
that fragmentary poetry is trying to reflect the fragmentariness of 
life; you simultaneously deny and affirm that life itself is 
fragmentary. Your defense is confused, at best. I think it's simply 
flat wrong.

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb  9 09:25:55 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:25:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEAHIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <40273D0C.17704.256AA7@localhost>
Message-ID: <40275223.5149.77CC1F@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2004 at 8:14, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> What often works for me is openness--an open mind, a willingness to
> defer judgment (perhaps forever), a reluctance to compare. A sense of
> adventure also helps.
> And, once again, I've nothing against questions. What I suggested was
> that those listed questions were not particularly helpful in
> approaching J's poem. Worthiness has nothing to do with it.

Do you approach other poetry, such as the poetry of rape, torture, or 
murder, the same way, with an open mind, a willingness to defer 
judgment perhaps forever, a reluctance to compare, and a sense of 
adventure? 

If you are going to claim that anything is a poem that anyone claims 
is one, then worthiness is all you've got to distinguish the poetry 
of rape from the poetry of love. Once you abandon both you've got 
nothing left to say when someone tortures, rapes, and murders someone 
and claims it is a poem. You, too, must admit it is a poem. And 
without any judgment about worthiness you must also accept their 
assertion that it is a good poem. That's having such an open mind 
one's brains fall out.









From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Mon Feb  9 10:25:11 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:25:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <d0.44aa1ecd.2d590057@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/9/2004 9:20:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:


> Oh, pfui -- it's no such thing.

Marcus, 

I have a full day of teaching ahead and so can't get around to dismantling 
your beautifully ordered set of logical fallacies for a bit -- oh, ack, to be 
lumpinated with the Bushes! But your cogency above: so trenchant, forceful, and 
persuasive. I'll have to remember that argument next time I can't think of 
what (else) to say. I wildly admire the thinking process and suggest that you 
might have created the world's shortest lyric essay. As John Canaday, the NY 
Times art critic and historian used to say, *Classy; I like it.*  

Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040209/bee316af/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 11:21:43 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:21:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <40275223.5149.77CC1F@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEAOIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    On 9 Feb 2004 at 8:14, Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > What often works for me is openness--an open mind, a willingness to
{    > defer judgment (perhaps forever), a reluctance to compare. A sense of
{    > adventure also helps.
{    > And, once again, I've nothing against questions. What I suggested was
{    > that those listed questions were not particularly helpful in
{    > approaching J's poem. Worthiness has nothing to do with it.
{    
{    Do you approach other poetry, such as the poetry of rape, torture, or 
{    murder, the same way, with an open mind, a willingness to defer 
{    judgment perhaps forever, a reluctance to compare, and a sense of 
{    adventure? 
{    
{    If you are going to claim that anything is a poem that anyone claims 
{    is one, then worthiness is all you've got to distinguish the poetry 
{    of rape from the poetry of love. Once you abandon both you've got 
{    nothing left to say when someone tortures, rapes, and murders someone 
{    and claims it is a poem. You, too, must admit it is a poem. And 
{    without any judgment about worthiness you must also accept their 
{    assertion that it is a good poem. That's having such an open mind 
{    one's brains fall out.
{    

Whatever you say, Marcus.

Hal            "I enjoyed talking to you. My mind
                  needed a rest."
                          --Henny Youngman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From chris at chrislott.org  Mon Feb  9 11:42:36 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 07:42:36 -0900
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story  From: Wendy Battin
In-Reply-To: <a05100301bc4c06d8c841@[204.215.201.69]>
References: <200402090236.i192a2bk005561@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bc4c06d8c841@[204.215.201.69]>
Message-ID: <4027B87C.3030008@chrislott.org>

ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:

> Maybe he can concoct one from ranted scatologies at the police state. 
> Poor Kafka Lott trapped in Amerika hating Bush hating me: "Saddam, whozat?"

Have to admire the complete package of your ineptness. From appending 
hundreds of extra lines of the digest to your email, to the insistence 
that every disagreement be related in some way to a defense or attack 
against your beloved Shrub without regard to the lack of connection... 
it really is breathtaking.

c


From elemenope at icubed.com  Mon Feb  9 02:29:33 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:29:33 +0800
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story  From: Wendy
 Battin (Chris Lott)
In-Reply-To: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100301bc4ce39ae713@[204.215.201.69]>

There Lott goes again.  Where is his poem?  He claims to be qualified 
to dump on Jorie Graham but refuses out of shame, or incompetence, to 
compete with Bob Grumman, Barry Spacks and (soon) myself - - .  Even 
I, another for whom Lott has expressed deep contempt, can provide a 
poem which at least attempts what Graham's poem does stylistically. 
Instead, Lott attacks.  His shots remind me of the flack flack guns 
Saddam's boys used during the Baghdad bombing runs. A lot of noise 
that doesn't hit anything.


>  Maybe he can concoct one from ranted scatologies at the police state.
>  Poor Kafka Lott trapped in Amerika hating Bush hating me: "Saddam, whozat?"

>Have to admire the complete package of your ineptness. From appending
>hundreds of extra lines of the digest to your email, to the insistence
>that every disagreement be related in some way to a defense or attack
>against your beloved Shrub without regard to the lack of connection...
>it really is breathtaking.
>
>		C "Toy" Lott







-- 


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb  9 15:30:38 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:30:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <55.508e902e.2d5947ee@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/9/04 9:27:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

>  What often works for me is openness--an open mind, a willingness to
>  > defer judgment (perhaps forever), a reluctance to compare. A sense of
>  > adventure also helps.
>  > And, once again, I've nothing against questions. What I suggested was
>  > that those listed questions were not particularly helpful in
>  > approaching J's poem. Worthiness has nothing to do with it.
>  
>  Do you approach other poetry, such as the poetry of rape, torture, or 
>  murder, the same way, with an open mind, a willingness to defer 
>  judgment perhaps forever, a reluctance to compare, and a sense of 
>  adventure? 
>  
>  If you are going to claim that anything is a poem that anyone claims 
>  is one, then worthiness is all you've got to distinguish the poetry 
>  of rape from the poetry of love. Once you abandon both you've got 
>  nothing left to say when someone tortures, rapes, and murders someone 
>  and claims it is a poem. You, too, must admit it is a poem. And 
>  without any judgment about worthiness you must also accept their 
>  assertion that it is a good poem. That's having such an open mind 
>  one's brains fall out.
Not that I think you've characterized the proposition correctly, Marcus,
but isn't your argument reductio ad absurdum?
Finnegan


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb  9 15:58:37 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 21:58:37 +0100
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story 
References: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bc4ce39ae713@[204.215.201.69]>
Message-ID: <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

This is quite depressing, or is it the hormone of hydroxy steroid ketone
C19H28O2. - affecting some? I live in Italy, and people sort of dislike
Americans, and here is an American list of poets who simply enjoy killing
one another, I am sure they would subscribe right there if they knew.


Bales, Dillon, Lott

they would lay bets on you. You remember those arenas with lions inside...
Romans would just whistle clear and loud, and cheer with wine and grapes,
full bellies shivering with delight. A pity, your grey substance _hanging
like a muscle_ on putrid stones. Aren't the USA, a wild country without
history, a primitive ranch, a consumption-eroded cheese, a homologized
homology of nuts, all fat and badly dressed, ignorant, deprived of..........




????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
///////////////////////////




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 15:59:57 2004
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:59:57 -0700
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bc4ce39ae713@[204.215.201.69]> <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <4027F4CD.EA2A5DF9@earthlink.net>


Anny Ballardini wrote:
> 
>
> 
> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> ??????
> 
> ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> ///////////////////////////
> 

I agree 100%.

- Jim



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb  9 16:13:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:13:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <40275064.17640.70FBEF@localhost>
Message-ID: <014b01c3ef51$96f64fe0$7defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Marcus Bales:
> > > Once again pretending there is no implication or inference possible.
> > > How do you determine whether to eat or even breathe, Bob, if you
> > > can't determine by inference whether the implications of your hunger
> > > are that you'll starve to death if you don't eat?
>
> On 6 Feb 2004 at 14:15, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > A non-verosopath would show in clear language how my saying that some
> > poets had gone further in cutting up texts than Graham was akin to my
> > suggesting that because cutting up texts was good, cutting texts up
> > into smaller pieces was better.<

Ironically, the non-verosopath Chris Lott did this.

>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Verosopaths rarely do anything but make insulting assertions.
>
> Once again pretending that implication and inference don't exist, eh,
> Bob? Perhaps if you were to say what you mean, or at least accept
> that others are going to expect you to mean what you say, you'd be
> less inclined to respond with merely personal attacks,
and discuss
> the issues you raise without reference to your self. You are not your
> opinions, and your opinions are not you -- keep this in mind and
> you'll be able to see that people who disagree with your opinions are
> not attacking you personally.

You're the only one at New-Poetry I believe has ever attacked me personally,
V.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb  9 16:16:29 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:16:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <1c3.14b067e3.2d5545ee@aol.com> <40275064.23990.70FAE0@localhost>
Message-ID: <015101c3ef51$fd78fce0$7defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Jeffrey Levine: 
> > Well, there's no arguing with this, Marcus, not really. Every 
> > geometry needs it's starting point. Reject that, reject the geometry.<
> 
> Perhaps that's all it is. Like Tad, I think poets are not in the 
> Rorschach business -- and those who are, or claim they are, are 
> simply not writing poems, they're producing blots in blurts for 
> others to react to. It's not immoral to blurt or blot, but I don't 
> see any reason to call it poetry, unless you're also willing to say 
> that the ravings of lunatics and the actions of criminals are also 
> poems. I mean, where do you draw the line? If you draw no line, then 
> you have to admit to such absurdities as the poetry of rape or 
> torture or murder. If you do draw a line, then you have to admit that 
> some things are just not poems.

And what science do you use to objectively do that, V.?

 --Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb  9 16:46:22 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:46:22 EST
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story  From: Wendy Battin (Chris Lo...
Message-ID: <164.2b6f767f.2d5959ae@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/9/04 3:27:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
elemenope at icubed.com writes:

>  and (soon) myself 
Richard, (not soon or later) rather it be never.
Finnegan
 


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb  9 18:26:31 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:26:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <55.508e902e.2d5947ee@aol.com>
Message-ID: <023901c3ef64$283584f0$7defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> In a message dated 2/9/04 9:27:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> marcus at designerglass.com writes:
>
> >  What often works for me is openness--an open mind, a willingness to
> >  > defer judgment (perhaps forever), a reluctance to compare. A sense of
> >  > adventure also helps.
> >  > And, once again, I've nothing against questions. What I suggested was
> >  > that those listed questions were not particularly helpful in
> >  > approaching J's poem. Worthiness has nothing to do with it.
> >
> >  Do you approach other poetry, such as the poetry of rape, torture, or
> >  murder, the same way, with an open mind, a willingness to defer
> >  judgment perhaps forever, a reluctance to compare, and a sense of
> >  adventure?
> >
> >  If you are going to claim that anything is a poem that anyone claims
> >  is one, then worthiness is all you've got to distinguish the poetry
> >  of rape from the poetry of love. Once you abandon both you've got
> >  nothing left to say when someone tortures, rapes, and murders someone
> >  and claims it is a poem. You, too, must admit it is a poem. And
> >  without any judgment about worthiness you must also accept their
> >  assertion that it is a good poem. That's having such an open mind
> >  one's brains fall out.
> Not that I think you've characterized the proposition correctly, Marcus,
> but isn't your argument reductio ad absurdum?
> Finnegan
>

Can Marcus tell us what a poem is?  Not torture, rape or murder?  Does that
mean ANYTHING that is not torture, rape or murder is a poem?!  (To use
Balesian logic.)

--Bob G.





From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 23:53:52 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:53:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Barbara Guest, "Send me a Telegram"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEBPIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Send me a Telegram

Will you please?
and have it delivered like a pineapple today
not yesterday's pineapple but really I would prefer
a daily pineapple if you can arrange it I mean
with a telegram not always a telegram a yearly
one will be sure if it reaches me
if first it goes on an air land and later comes
to me by foot I will like it better than a telegram
read to me over a telephone I would like this
new and fresh telegram to arrive with an old-
fashioned person dressed in a delivery suit
the words will be so contemporary so avant-garde
it being you who shall send it but I can discard
that idea I should like an ordinary person to deliver
my telegram not necessarily in a delivery-suit one
must respect tastes and not parenthesize them as
telegrams do not risk punctuation and my joy in
receiving your words hardly needs embellishment
I almost forgot oh genuine you of delicious pineapples
thank you in advance as you have always wished.

                                                           1965

--Barbara Guest

in *The Blind See Only This World: Poems for John Weiners*
[New York: Granary Books, 2000]


Hal        

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Mon Feb  9 23:56:20 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:56:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <81.4daef7f.2d59be74@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/9/2004 9:20:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:
Your thesis was 
that the fragmentariness of the Graham poem takes a fragmentary world 
and renders it more faithfully fragmentary; now you say you said just 
the opposite. But what would the opposite be? That the Graham poem is 
coherent and linear but it is the reader's immersion in the 
fragmentary that makes coherent linearity seem fragmentary? That 
reality is coherent and linear and the Graham poem's fragmentariness 
takes that coherence and linearity and renders it fragmentary? What 
can "just the opposite, in fact" possibly mean in this context?
In truth, I did not say that the Graham poem takes a fragmentary world and 
renders it more faithfully fragmentary. The Graham poem doesn't take the world 
at all. It is a poem. What I suggested was that the Graham poem recognizes a 
fragmentary world, and finds a new -- a more faithful -- way to represent it. 
Some fragmentation is required, as is some coherence, as the world itself both 
fragments and coheres. The world does not fragment for the sake of 
fragmentation -- it's the impossibility of perspective that makes it seem so. The idea is 
to SUGGEST the fragmentation without losing all coherence. That's why these 
poems are so damned hard to write. They must shimmer on the edge of our 
unconscious appreciation of the world -- both rational and irrational, both limited 
and vast. 

What I said was: <<It demands, too, a special
> sensitivity to the abstract, almost graphic relationship of ideas and
> images, things and ideas, opening up a second reality (the scattered
> fragments themselves as independent entities) parallel to the
> representational one. 

It's fine to reject this notion of how to appreciate fragmented poetry -- how 
to look at it -- either because you don't agree, or because you don't 
understand, but to term it mere *cant* is hopelessly reductive. Which is to say, it 
begs the issue. Any way of talking about art is, ultimately, a kind of cant, 
because art is art and talking about art is talking about art. I got into this 
in the first place because someone (Bob?) asked, why bother to read JG. All I 
can say is why I bother to read JG. What's in it for me. Whether or not I'm 
uttering universal truths about art is fully irrelevant. If you buy into what I'm 
saying, and I'm right, then score one for me. If you don't buy into it and 
I'm right, I'm still right. And if I'm wrong, who cares? Maybe I've only succeed 
in deluding myself about WHY I like a JG poem, but I still like it, and my 
liking it never needed an explanation in the first place. Until (Bob?) asked. 

Jeffrey, possibly deluded, possibly right
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040209/b99cb1d3/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 00:09:17 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:09:17 -0500
Subject: FW: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Barbara Guest, "Send me a Telegram"
Message-ID: <006201c3ef94$08d23ce0$86f8c043@computer>

[with typo corrected]


Send me a Telegram

Will you please?
and have it delivered like a pineapple today
not yesterday's pineapple but really I would prefer
a daily pineapple if you can arrange it I mean
with a telegram not always a telegram a yearly
one will be sure if it reaches me
if first it goes on an air lane and later comes
to me by foot I will like it better than a telegram
read to me over a telephone I would like this
new and fresh telegram to arrive with an old-
fashioned person dressed in a delivery suit
the words will be so contemporary so avant-garde
it being you who shall send it but I can discard
that idea I should like an ordinary person to deliver
my telegram not necessarily in a delivery-suit one
must respect tastes and not parenthesize them as
telegrams do not risk punctuation and my joy in
receiving your words hardly needs embellishment
I almost forgot oh genuine you of delicious pineapples
thank you in advance as you have always wished.

                                                           1965

--Barbara Guest

in *The Blind See Only This World: Poems for John Weiners*
[New York: Granary Books, 2000]


Hal        

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From chris at chrislott.org  Tue Feb 10 00:38:44 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:38:44 -0900
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
References: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bc4ce39ae713@[204.215.201.69]> <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <40286E64.2050100@chrislott.org>

Anny Ballardini wrote:

> This is quite depressing, or is it the hormone of hydroxy steroid ketone
> C19H28O2. - affecting some? I live in Italy, and people sort of dislike
> Americans, and here is an American list of poets who simply enjoy killing
> one another, I am sure they would subscribe right there if they knew.

I think I have been quite reasonable in most of this discussion, often 
agreeing to disagree or just letting it go when it seems that there is 
no headway to be made, that I will not understand someone else, or that 
someone else is unlikely to understand me. Strong disagreement doesn't 
necessarily mean hostility. I cite exchanges in this very thread with 
Bob Grumman and Jeffrey (whose last name escapes me).

As for Richard Dillon-- as far as I can tell he usually only opens his 
mouth to spew political bile, most often unrelated to anything that has 
been posted before. In all but one previous instance quite some time ago 
I have just let the posts speak weakly for themselves, and in fact don't 
post to this list often at all. I am unlikely to start silently passing 
by the inanities directed at me specifically by name, though Richard 
might eventually (hopefully) just shut up all by himself, take them 
backchannel, or perhaps his clockworks will just run out of its own 
accord and he will stop clapping his little political cymbals together 
so repetitively.

c


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Tue Feb 10 01:56:04 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:56:04 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Papers
Message-ID: <005401c3efa2$f3d2e150$05607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

>From: Walter Hoelbling [mailto:walter.hoelbling at kfunigraz.ac.at]
 >Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:58 PM

CALL FOR PAPERS
31st AAAS Conference, Salzburg, 5-7 November 2004
TRANSITIONS:
Race, Culture, and the Dynamics of Change
The Salzburg conference will concentrate on the broad concept of transition
with all its implications concerning the United States: changes and
exchanges, variety and variation, difference and diversity, renewal and
reform, migration and emigration, globalisation and glocalisation,
metamorphosis and modification, adaptation and negotiation. With an emphasis
on race and ethnicity, the conference will question the meaningfulness of
distinctions and boundaries - racial, class-based, gender-oriented,
religious, political, social, cultural - in a changing world. We are facing
a search for identity in a time of socio-political strife and neoliberalism,
with cultural norms, social structures, political systems, and national
frontiers collapsing. How can we set up new standards? How do we cope with
the chaos that sometimes accompanies utopian dreams? Our aim is to
contribute to the discourse about the challenges the new millennium is
bringing along with it and the literary, historical, political, and social
contexts that gave rise to these challenges. How did it all begin and where
does it lead to?
We invite papers of a theoretical, interpretative or expository nature
concerning transitions in literature, art, history and culture at large.
Proposals should include the author's exact postal address, phone and fax
number(s), and e-mail address.
Since 1947, Schloss Leopoldskron has been the home of the SALZBURG SEMINAR,
an international educational institution that brings together participants
from all over the globe. When Salzburg Seminar programs are not in session,
this unique facility provides an unparalleled venue for this conference.
Schloss Leopoldskron is situated in idyllic surroundings and is within
walking distance of the Old Town of Salzburg. It offers a modern conference
center infrastructure combined with historic banqueting rooms.
www.schloss-leopoldskron.com
Room reservation for the AAAS Seminar (November 5-7, 2004):
Salzburg Seminar - Schloss Leopoldskron
Reception
Leopoldskronstr. 56-58
A-5020 Salzburg
Tel: +43 (0)662 - 83938-0
Fax: +43 (0)662 - 83938-7
E-Mail: reception at salzburgseminar.org

DEADLINE for submitting proposals: 1 May 2004
Paper proposals of not more than 200 words should be sent to

Hanna Wallinger
Department of English and American Studies
University Salzburg
Akademiestrasse 24
A-5020 Salzburg AUSTRIA

e-mail: hanna.wallinger at sbg.ac.at
Tel.: ++43 (662) 8044-4412
Fax: ++43 (662) 8044-167



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040210/d233bc56/attachment.html>

From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 10 09:12:48 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:12:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <81.4daef7f.2d59be74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4028A090.22301.66482C@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2004 at 23:56, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> In truth, I did not say that the Graham poem takes a fragmentary world
> and renders it more faithfully fragmentary. The Graham poem doesn't
> take the world at all. It is a poem. What I suggested was that the
> Graham poem recognizes a fragmentary world, and finds a new - - a more
> faithful -- way to represent it.<

So what does it mean to recognize a fragmentary world and find a more 
faithful way to represent it in a fragmentary way? It looks very 
much, to these old eyes, as if that is the same thing as taking a 
fragmentary world and rendering it more faithfully fragmentary.
You seem to be once again denying that you said what you then repeat.

> Some fragmentation is required, as is
> some coherence, as the world itself both fragments and coheres. <

In order to support this assertion you have to show where Graham's 
work coheres -- which I don't think you can do with any coherence, if 
I understand what you've said about how each reader will find a 
different meaning or coherence among the fragments. It is not a 
reasonable meaning of "finding coherence" to say that every reader 
finds his or her own -- that's once again fragmented.

> The
> world does not fragment for the sake of fragmentation -- it's the
> impossibility of perspective that makes it seem so.<

This is a philosophical assertion without support. How do you know 
the world does not fragment for the sake of fragmentation? Or 
complicate for the sake of complication? For that matter, if there is 
indeed an "impossibility of perspective" then what in the world 
justifies privileging Jorie Graham's perspective? Or yours? Or mine? 
Aren't you merely arguing here that there is no possibility of poetry 
as it's been understood for thousands of years; that there is, in 
fact, no possibility of any order at all, when you say there is an 
"impossibility of perspective"? Such an impossibility, taken 
seriously, would mean we'd have necessarily to abandon the civil, 
criminal, and religious laws, and participate as best each of us 
could in the state of nature war of all against all. Can you really 
be serious in such an extreme view? If you think life is fragmented 
now, wait until you see anarchy!

> The idea is to
> SUGGEST the fragmentation without losing all coherence. That's why
> these poems are so damned hard to write. They must shimmer on the edge
> of our unconscious appreciation of the world -- both rational and
> irrational, both limited and vast. <

But they're not hard to write because the human mind determinedly  
seeks to make order even where there isn't any -- it's the reason we 
see camels and weasels or whales in the clouds. What the poets who 
write such fragmented vagaries are doing is making verbal clouds and 
hoping that the reader will say "Very like a whale". The goodness and 
badness of such vagaries is wholely, so far as I can tell, dependent 
on marketing and branding. If it is a Jorie Graham poem it's 
brilliant; if it is not it's not. Fashion is a powerful force.
 
> What I said was: <<It demands, too, a special
> > sensitivity to the abstract, almost graphic relationship of ideas 
> and
> > images, things and ideas, opening up a second reality (the scattered
> > fragments themselves as independent entities) parallel to the
> > representational one. 
> It's fine to reject this notion of how to appreciate fragmented 
> poetry -- how to look at it -- either because you don't agree, or
> because you don't understand, but to term it mere *cant* is hopelessly
> reductive. Which is to say, it begs the issue. Any way of talking
> about art is, ultimately, a kind of cant, because art is art and
> talking about art is talking about art.<

Then you agree it is merely a matter of marketing and branding!

> I got into this in the first
> place because someone (Bob?) asked, why bother to read JG. All I can
> say is why I bother to read JG. What's in it for me. Whether or not
> I'm uttering universal truths about art is fully irrelevant. If you
> buy into what I'm saying, and I'm right, then score one for me. If you
> don't buy into it and I'm right, I'm still right. And if I'm wrong,
> who cares? <

But by what standard do we measure whether you're right or not? Your 
mere claim that you are? Do we vote on it? Do we look at "poetry best-
sellers" and let the market decide? Do we make reasoned arguments on 
the basis of evidential standards we can agree on before we begin? Do 
we ask our priests? How?

Because to say "If you buy into what I'm saying, and I'm right, then 
score one for me. If you don't buy into it and I'm right, I'm still 
right. And if I'm wrong, who cares?" is to say that it is entirely 
and merely a matter of faith -- and if you give me six weeks and a 
free hand I guarantee I can persuade you that Jorie Graham is Satan, 
and all her works are evil. Mere faith seems entirely inadequate a 
basis for committing one's intellectual resources in this day and 
age.

> Maybe I've only succeed in deluding myself about WHY I like
> a JG poem, but I still like it, and my liking it never needed an
> explanation in the first place.<

But the question isn't whether you LIKE it, it's whether it's worth 
reading -- the question is whether it is GOOD.  These are two 
different questions, it seems to me, whether you like it and whether 
you think it's good. I can accept that you LIKE it without arguing 
with you -- de gustibus -- but I can't accept that you think it's 
good without more reasion than "because I like it", because some 
people like torturing people, and if "because I like it" is an 
adequate reason to hold that something is good then we must agree 
that torturing people is good for the people who like it. That's 
clearly unacceptable. So the notion that it's good because you like 
it is just not an acceptable reason to hold that it's good.

Marcus






From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 10 09:16:18 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:16:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <023901c3ef64$283584f0$7defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4028A162.28212.697BCA@localhost>

> > >  Do you approach other poetry, such as the poetry of rape,
> > >  torture, or murder, the same way, with an open mind, a
> > >  willingness to defer judgment perhaps forever, a reluctance to
> > >  compare, and a sense of adventure?
> > >  If you are going to claim that anything is a poem that anyone
> > >  claims is one, then worthiness is all you've got to distinguish
> > >  the poetry of rape from the poetry of love. Once you abandon both
> > >  you've got nothing left to say when someone tortures, rapes, and
> > >  murders someone and claims it is a poem. You, too, must admit it
> > >  is a poem. And without any judgment about worthiness you must
> > >  also accept their assertion that it is a good poem. That's having
> > >  such an open mind one's brains fall out.

> > marcus at designerglass.com writes:
> > Not that I think you've characterized the proposition correctly,
> > Marcus, but isn't your argument reductio ad absurdum? Finnegan

The purpose of using a reductio ad absurdum in this instance is to 
ask explicitly where my interlocutor draws his or her line to prevent 
his or her position from being reduced to the absurd. I ask, "where 
do you draw the line" because, I say, IF you don't draw any line, 
THEN your position is absurd. I eagerly await the answer to where my 
interlocutor draws the line, because I'm confident that he or she 
doesn't hold an absurd position.

Marcus






From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 10 09:20:06 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:20:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <023901c3ef64$283584f0$7defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4028A246.733.6CF60E@localhost>

> > >  If you are going to claim that anything is a poem that anyone
> > >  claims is one, then worthiness is all you've got to distinguish
> > >  the poetry of rape from the poetry of love. Once you abandon both
> > >  you've got nothing left to say when someone tortures, rapes, and
> > >  murders someone and claims it is a poem. You, too, must admit it
> > >  is a poem. And without any judgment about worthiness you must
> > >  also accept their assertion that it is a good poem. That's having
> > >  such an open mind one's brains fall out.

> > Not that I think you've characterized the proposition correctly,
> > Marcus, but isn't your argument reductio ad absurdum? Finnegan

On 9 Feb 2004 at 18:26, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Can Marcus tell us what a poem is?  Not torture, rape or murder?  Does
> that mean ANYTHING that is not torture, rape or murder is a poem?! 
> (To use Balesian logic.)<

Just at present, Bob, I'm trying to get others to tell me what THEIR 
idea of a poem is, because perhaps they will persuade me to their 
views. I'm questioning those views to test them for whether I want to 
hold them. I don't want to hold views that would commit me to 
accepting that rape, torture, and murder, and the like, could be 
poetry, so I'm asking where my interlocutors draw the line. 

Marcus







From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 10 09:25:53 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:25:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <014b01c3ef51$96f64fe0$7defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4028A3A1.18460.7240E4@localhost>

> You're the only one at New-Poetry I believe has ever attacked me
> personally, V.<

I don't call you names, Bob -- you call *me* names.  I take issue 
with your views and try to show that they are ill-thought-out when I 
think they are. That is not a personal attack -- and if you think it 
is, then you hold an erroneous view of what personal attack is; and 
that is not a personal attack, either.

I haven't attacked you personally; I've attacked your views and ideas 
and your manner of expressing them. Unless you're going to hold, 
erroneously, that your views, ideas, and manner of expressing them 
are YOU, you cannot reasonably hold that I've attacked you 
personally. The essence of civil discourse is that the disputants 
agree to hold their selves to be different from their views and 
opinions in order that those views and opinions may be tested without 
the test being taken as a personal attack. 

Marcus







From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 10 09:30:40 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:30:40 -0500
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story 
In-Reply-To: <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <4028A4C0.4282.76A2EF@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2004 at 21:58, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> This is quite depressing, or is it the hormone of hydroxy steroid
> ketone C19H28O2. - affecting some? I live in Italy, and people sort of
> dislike Americans, and here is an American list of poets who simply
> enjoy killing one another, I am sure they would subscribe right there
> if they knew.
> Bales, Dillon, Lott
> they would lay bets on you. You remember those arenas with lions
> inside... Romans would just whistle clear and loud, and cheer with
> wine and grapes, full bellies shivering with delight. A pity, your
> grey substance _hanging like a muscle_ on putrid stones. Aren't the
> USA, a wild country without history, a primitive ranch, a
> consumption-eroded cheese, a homologized homology of nuts, all fat and
> badly dressed, ignorant, deprived of..........<

More ad hominem attack.

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 10 09:30:40 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:30:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <015101c3ef51$fd78fce0$7defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4028A4C0.24390.76A1AF@localhost>

On 9 Feb 2004 at 16:16, Bob Grumman wrote:
> And what science do you use to objectively do that, V.?

More name-calling; more ad hominem attack. Is this the best you can 
do?

Marcus





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Feb 10 12:52:26 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:52:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4028A246.733.6CF60E@localhost>
Message-ID: <006801c3effe$a6a10d10$37efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Just at present, Bob, I'm trying to get others to tell me what THEIR
> idea of a poem is, because perhaps they will persuade me to their
> views. I'm questioning those views to test them for whether I want to
> hold them. I don't want to hold views that would commit me to
> accepting that rape, torture, and murder, and the like, could be
> poetry, so I'm asking where my interlocutors draw the line.
>
> Marcus
>

The verosopath always wants others to draw lines he can attack.  He'll never
draw lines.

--Bob G.

>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Feb 10 12:54:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:54:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4028A3A1.18460.7240E4@localhost>
Message-ID: <007001c3effe$f470f140$37efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I don't call you names, Bob -- 

Calling people names is not the only way to attack a person.  Describing his
work in a field he has devoted a large portion of his life to as erroneous
or ineffective is an attack on the person, for anyone but a verosopath.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Feb 10 13:00:48 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:00:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4028A4C0.24390.76A1AF@localhost>
Message-ID: <007601c3efff$d1bb7c50$37efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> On 9 Feb 2004 at 16:16, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > And what science do you use to objectively do that, V.?
>
> More name-calling; more ad hominem attack. Is this the best you can
> do?

Asking a verosopath questions he will reveal his determination to destroy
discussions by answering them with nothing but accusations of impoliteness
is the best anyone can do against a verosopath, V.

--Bob G.




From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 10 13:05:56 2004
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:05:56 -0000
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bc4ce39ae713@[204.215.201.69]> <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40286E64.2050100@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <001001c3f000$f334dce0$9fda8051@MyPC>

From: "Chris Lott" <chris at chrislott.org>

> am unlikely to start silently passing
> by the inanities directed at me specifically by name, though Richard
> might eventually (hopefully) just shut up all by himself, take them
> backchannel, or perhaps his clockworks will just run out of its own
> accord and he will stop clapping his little political cymbals together
> so repetitively.

This strikes me as being rather close to implicit and informal censorship,
the calls for Richard (not just from Chris but from Finnegan too) to shut
the hell up.

I have to say, and Richard won't thank me for this, that I find his persona
on new poetry a little strident and over-politicised, divergent from the
Richard Dillon I know, who is witty, intelligent, funny, and an excellent
poet.

Simply, there are sides to Richard that, for whatever reasons, some of which
I know and can understand, he doesn't let appear on n/p.

But there are other things on new poetry that make me bite the carpet more
often than Richard's relatively-occasional interventions.

Robin Hamilton





From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Tue Feb 10 16:55:24 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:55:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <10c.2f4d7e90.2d5aad4c@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/10/2004 9:13:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:


> > The
> > world does not fragment for the sake of fragmentation -- it's the
> > impossibility of perspective that makes it seem so.<
> 
> This is a philosophical assertion without support.

Yes, I'm a big fan of the bold philosophical assertion. But my proof was in 
the first posting -- you know, where I took great (as they say) pains to 
discuss -- in analogy -- how one cannot properly depict a voyage with from a fixed 
vantage point. Your response to that was the devilishly (insert smiley face 
here) clever: *Oh yeah? Who says? Yes you can!*  Now you have to admit, it's hard 
to argue with that logic, but here's Exhibit A:  I see (you may insert the 
obligatory *a priori* here if it makes my argument seem lest cant-ish) evidence 
everywhere of design in the world. Flowers. Shells. Bilateral symmetry. The 
near certainty that a shortstop with a strong arm, fielding a medium grounder, 
will still throw out a fast runner by half a step every time. 

Standing still -- from the single vantage point -- I see more evidence of 
coherence, of geometric cohesion -- than I do of disorder. It's in the 
amalgamation of things through spliced time -- the turning and turning -- the way we 
humans fit into the scheme of things -- that things fall apart and the center 
doesn't hold. This might -- who knows? -- be the world's way of making us nuts. 
It may turn out that the world has a conscience and a naughty one at that and 
is only teasing us with the idea of order at Key West and elsewhere. If so, BAD 
WORLD! BAD BAD BAD WORLD!

Jeffrey

JL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040210/8feb436e/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 10 18:26:09 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:26:09 EST
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
Message-ID: <a2.423a6375.2d5ac291@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/10/2004 1:09:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:

> This strikes me as being rather close to implicit and informal censorship,
> the calls for Richard (not just from Chris but from Finnegan too) to shut
> the hell up.
> 
> I have to say, and Richard won't thank me for this, that I find his persona
> on new poetry a little strident and over-politicised, divergent from the
> Richard Dillon I know, who is witty, intelligent, funny, and an excellent
> poet.
> 
> Simply, there are sides to Richard that, for whatever reasons, some of which
> I know and can understand, he doesn't let appear on n/p.
> 
> But there are other things on new poetry that make me bite the carpet more
> often than Richard's relatively-occasional interventions.
> 
> 

Robin, I never said shut up (but I thought it on more than one 
ocassion). I was simply responding to his silly baiting and
challenges; and what's with the (soon) I'll post the poem you've
all been waiting for? The suspense isn't killing me, is all I'm saying.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040210/fde60fca/attachment.html>

From tad at opus40.org  Sun Feb  8 15:20:43 2004
From: tad at opus40.org (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:20:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hal's Centcom Sonnets
Message-ID: <003701c3ee81$078b08d0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Really good stuff.



Tad Richards
"Situations"
http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040208/14c35b91/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 10 19:17:17 2004
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:17:17 -0000
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <a2.423a6375.2d5ac291@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c3f034$6885a320$8b8a8051@MyPC>

<<
Robin, I never said shut up (but I thought it on more than one
ocassion). I was simply responding to his silly baiting and
challenges; and what's with the (soon) I'll post the poem you've
all been waiting for? The suspense isn't killing me, is all I'm saying.
Finnegan
>>

I'll take this up backchannel with Richard, Finnegan -- if it's a poem which
will be appearing in +Utter Dark, Utter Light+, it might function as a
fore-trailer for that book on this list.

Robin Hamilton

(Prop. Phantom Rooster Press)

[I had a beautifully-lucid backchannel from Richard on Jorie Graham.  As a
Benighted Brit, I have to confess I don't know her work at all, so I asked
Richard to fill me in.  He managed to place her in a context that made sense
even to my ignorance, so now I know a little more what the Jorie Graham
thread is about.

Just a thought.

Robin.]

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=26

... for a selection of Richard Dillon's poems on the Web.

R.






From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 10 19:33:53 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:33:53 EST
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
Message-ID: <99.42df51de.2d5ad271@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/10/2004 7:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:

> I had a beautifully-lucid backchannel from Richard on Jorie Graham

Richard, I'd be love to see 
a beautiful and lucid post on Jorie Graham 
instead of challenges to post a stylistic knock-off.
A poem influenced by her style I can understand.
But parody is the least sincere form of flattery.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040210/e887f5f0/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 19:39:53 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:39:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hal's Centcom Sonnets
In-Reply-To: <003701c3ee81$078b08d0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEDDIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thank you, Tad.

Hal
  Really good stuff.



  Tad Richards
  "Situations"
  http://www.opus40.org/TadRichards
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040210/24535fce/attachment.html>

From Thom424 at aol.com  Wed Feb 11 07:59:03 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:59:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Remembering Sylvia Plath
Message-ID: <1e8.18981b75.2d5b8117@aol.com>


Sylvia Plath: b. October 27, 1932. d. February 11, 1963.


Edge*

The woman is perfected
Her dead

Body wears the smile of accomplishment,
The illusion of a Greek necessity

Flows in the scrolls of her toga,
Her bare

Feet seem to be saying:
We have come so far, it is over.

Each dead child coiled, a white serpent,
One at each little

Pitcher of milk, now empty
She has folded

Them back into her body as petals
Of a rose close when the garden

Stiffens and odors bleed

From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 11 08:05:27 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:05:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <10c.2f4d7e90.2d5aad4c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4029E247.17478.1B8232@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2004 at 16:55, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Yes, I'm a big fan of the bold philosophical assertion. But my proof
> was in the first posting -- you know, where I took great (as they say)
> pains to discuss -- in analogy -- how one cannot properly depict a
> voyage with from a fixed vantage point. Your response to that was the
> devilishly (insert smiley face here) clever: *Oh yeah? Who says? Yes
> you can!* <<

And I gave a famous example, and can give lots more examples. I'd go 
so far as to argue that the art of art is to properly depict a voyage 
from a fixed point, and that that's just what Jorie Graham's, and 
other fragmented vagaries, texts do not do. Instead they are examples 
of the imitative fallacy, of pretending that by fragmenting the 
already fragmented they provide nothing worthwhile or interesting or 
artful. 

> I see ... evidence everywhere
> of design in the world. Flowers. Shells. Bilateral symmetry. The near
> certainty that a shortstop with a strong arm, fielding a medium
> grounder, will still throw out a fast runner by half a step every
> time. <



> 
> Standing still -- from the single vantage point -- I see more 
> evidence of coherence, of geometric cohesion -- than I do of 
> disorder. It's in the amalgamation of things through spliced time --
> the turning and turning -- the way we humans fit into the scheme of
> things -- that things fall apart and the center doesn't hold.<<

But the question is not whether things fall apart or the center holds 
-- the question is whether anyone can say "things fall apart, the 
center does not hold" to tell the fragmented story from a single 
point -- and, of course, since you're obviously completely unfamiliar 
with Yeats's poem because you've quoted it (is that fragmentary 
enough for you?) you cannot know that Yeats has in fact done the very 
thing you argue cannot be done even as you use a Yeats allusion to 
try to argue that neither Yeats nor anyone else can do any such thing 
as you allude to Yeats doing.

In short, you're in the same position vis a vis Jorie Graham with 
your theory that fragmentation that deconstructionists are vis a vis 
publishing their books: you contradict yourself by trying to argue 
that there can be no argument.

What I don't understand is how you, or Jorie Graham, can speak 
English, or any language, at all if you really believe what you say 
you believe. Why aren't you simply ignoring all the rules of grammar 
and syntax, all the denotative and connotative meanings of words? Why 
aren't you uttering nonsense sounds all the time? 

On the other hand, if you really see "design" in so many things, if 
you really have read Yeats and consider yourself an educated and 
civilized person who values order and coherence, then why are you 
trying to argue that fragmentation texts are really coherent poems?







From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 11 08:09:25 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:09:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <007601c3efff$d1bb7c50$37efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4029E335.29141.1F257F@localhost>

> > On 9 Feb 2004 at 16:16, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > And what science do you use to objectively do that, V.?

Marcus Bales:
> > More name-calling; more ad hominem attack. Is this the best you can
> > do?

On 10 Feb 2004 at 13:00, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Asking a verosopath questions ...<<

More name-calling, more ad hominem attack. Is this really the best, 
the very best, you can do?

You call me names, Bob -- I don't call you names. You make ad hominem 
attacks; I do not. I question your views and opinons, and if you 
can't see that it's necessary to civil discussion to separate your 
self from your views and opinions it's not really possible to have a 
civil discussion with you. Kindly forbear your name-calling and ad 
hominem attacks in the future.

Thank you very much.

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 11 08:12:15 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:12:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <007001c3effe$f470f140$37efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4029E3DF.12176.21BD93@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2004 at 12:54, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Calling people names is not the only way to attack a person. 
> Describing his work in a field he has devoted a large portion of his
> life to as erroneous or ineffective is an attack on the person ...<<

Sorry, Bob, but this is simply wrong. How long someone has worked on 
something has no bearing on whether it is a sound notion or not. You 
cannot make an apple pie out of mud. If you think your notions have 
merit, then argue the merits; but name-calling me will not make your 
notions more sound if they're not. In order to have a civil 
discussion the participants have to be willing and able to separate 
their views from their selves. 

Marcus







From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Feb 11 08:13:08 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:13:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <006801c3effe$a6a10d10$37efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4029E414.2322.228BE3@localhost>

On 10 Feb 2004 at 12:52, Bob Grumman wrote:
> The verosopath always wants others to draw lines he can attack.  He'll
> never draw lines.<

More personal attack, more name-calling, more ad hominem. Is this 
really what you think is defending your ideas on their merits, Bob?






From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Wed Feb 11 11:50:15 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:50:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot!
Message-ID: <20040211165016.07970ACAD@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040211/4a0a75cd/attachment.ksh>

From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Wed Feb 11 11:53:19 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:53:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
Message-ID: <f2.36b4edcd.2d5bb7ff@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/11/2004 8:06:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:


> On the other hand, if you really see "design" in so many things, if 
> you really have read Yeats and consider yourself an educated and 
> civilized person who values order and coherence, then why are you 
> trying to argue that fragmentation texts are really coherent poems?
> 

Hmmmm. Well, how this turned to a discussion of whether I've read Yeats is 
hard to fathom, and who really cares whether I consider myself an educated and 
civilized person? Well, my mother cares, but . . . .  Do civilized people value 
order and coherence? It's always seemed to me that I have far too little 
tolerance for disorder in my life, which is why, I suppose, I fill it with chaos, 
and why I admire my son's willingness to cover his floor (and everybody 
else's) with everything he owns and leave it there.  We're at loggerheads over the 
central issue, an issue fundamental to art. You say <<I'd go so far as to argue 
that the art of art is to properly depict a voyage from a fixed point, and 
that that's just what Jorie Graham's, and other fragmented vagaries, texts do 
not do.>> While I say that the art of art is in no way so limited, some art 
being representational, some abstract, each faithful to a particular world view, 
those world views being largely different. Anyway, while I enjoy talking about 
poetry and do enjoy your mind and respect your tenacity, I don't much care for 
argument for the sake of argument and that seems to be where we've wound up. 

Jeffrey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040211/6420d9bb/attachment.html>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Wed Feb 11 13:03:19 2004
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:03:19 -0000
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <99.42df51de.2d5ad271@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009101c3f0c9$56adf680$8b8a8051@MyPC>

<<
Richard, I'd be love to see
a beautiful and lucid post on Jorie Graham
instead of challenges to post a stylistic knock-off.
>>

Here's what Richard said to me backchannel, Finnegan.

The context was a thoroughly naive question that I asked as to the relation
between Jorie Graham and e.e.cummings -- I couldn't quite work out, not
knowing JG's poetry, from what was being said on the thread, what she was
doing that cummings hadn't done before.

  "
  Cummings intercutting of text created cubistical effects.  Jorie
  Graham is writing, in my view, in the shadow of the late E.P.  She
  wants to execute those sublime and powerful leaps of scholarly
  intuition E.P. made.  She wants the agony (Canto 116) that seemed to
  make E.P. profound.  Cummings was very brilliant but his cuts were
  painterly and clever.  I'm not entirely certain that she has anything
  to be agonized about in her life, but, hey, who am I to point a
  finger?
  "

Perhaps Richard would like to expand on this, in the context of a list most
of whom, unlike me, *do* know Jorie Graham's poetry.

Robin Hamilton




From chris at chrislott.org  Wed Feb 11 13:20:39 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:20:39 -0900
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <001001c3f000$f334dce0$9fda8051@MyPC>
References: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bc4ce39ae713@[204.215.201.69]> <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40286E64.2050100@chrislott.org> <001001c3f000$f334dce0$9fda8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <402A7277.1040803@chrislott.org>

Robin Hamilton wrote:

> This strikes me as being rather close to implicit and informal censorship,
> the calls for Richard (not just from Chris but from Finnegan too) to shut
> the hell up.

Actually, you have it completely wrong. I could care less if Richard 
Dillon posts a thousand times a day or none. I simply stated that I was 
unlikely to let his personal attacks go by quietly. This is no more 
censorship than Ms. Ballardini's post of chastisement was.

c
-- 
Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
http://www.chrislott.org/

"Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries"
                                        --Theodore Roethke




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Feb 11 13:52:12 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:52:12 +0100
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
References: <200402091642.i19Gg2bk011467@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bc4ce39ae713@[204.215.201.69]> <007f01c3ef4f$7e4bfd70$49607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> <40286E64.2050100@chrislott.org> <001001c3f000$f334dce0$9fda8051@MyPC> <402A7277.1040803@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <005401c3f0d0$28da8820$14737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Sorry you got it that way, I didn't want to chastise anybody, you the less,

mine was meant to be a momentary outburst. But you are right there, scripta
manent. Thus my apologies for having touched you, whichever way you feel
touched.
Best, A

From: "Chris Lott" <chris at chrislott.org>

> Actually, you have it completely wrong. I could care less if Richard
> Dillon posts a thousand times a day or none. I simply stated that I was
> unlikely to let his personal attacks go by quietly. This is no more
> censorship than Ms. Ballardini's post of chastisement was.
>
> c
> -- 
> Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
> http://www.chrislott.org/
>
> "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries"
>                                         --Theodore Roethke
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From chris at chrislott.org  Wed Feb 11 14:31:22 2004
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:31:22 -0900
Subject: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jori Un-Story
In-Reply-To: <009101c3f0c9$56adf680$8b8a8051@MyPC>
References: <99.42df51de.2d5ad271@aol.com> <009101c3f0c9$56adf680$8b8a8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <402A830A.8040406@chrislott.org>

Robin Hamilton wrote that Richard Dillon wrote:

>   "
>   Cummings intercutting of text created cubistical effects.  Jorie
>   Graham is writing, in my view, in the shadow of the late E.P.  She
>   wants to execute those sublime and powerful leaps of scholarly
>   intuition E.P. made.  She wants the agony (Canto 116) that seemed to
>   make E.P. profound.  Cummings was very brilliant but his cuts were
>   painterly and clever.  I'm not entirely certain that she has anything
>   to be agonized about in her life, but, hey, who am I to point a
>   finger?
>   "

Now *this* is worth hearing more about. Good choices for Cummings, whose 
effects were at a higher "layer" of the poem. His work can be 
fascinating because he operates in a middle area that I find convincing. 
If many contemporary authors are writing in a way that is essentially 
all surface-- all on the skin-- then someone like Pound was writing in a 
way that was deep in the bloodstream. Cummings is in the middle, his 
typographical and syntactical tricks obvious in some ways, profound in 
others. He remained playful. "Painterly" and "clever" are apt because 
they capture his surface playfulness and cleverness is not a wholly 
negative attribute.

Jorie Graham most often (but not always) fails for me because a lot of 
her work seems like it works hard for profundity. Her poetry seems like 
it is executed in service of a philosophy-- and not a philosophy of 
humanity (or inhumanity) but a more solipsistic philosophy of a what 
poetry should be and do. Perhaps it is the Eastern influence on Pound 
that leads him to create more rewarding disjunctions. And there is a 
fair amount of dross to be had by any poet.

Then again, how many people have the intellect to give us those kinds of 
Eureka! moments in their poetry even once?

c
-- 
Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
http://www.chrislott.org/

"Emotion is the best mnemonic device" --Alice Fulton




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 11 16:58:12 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:58:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4029E335.29141.1F257F@localhost>
Message-ID: <013701c3f0ea$26a66b40$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > > On 9 Feb 2004 at 16:16, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > And what science do you use to objectively do that, V.?
> 
> Marcus Bales:
> > > More name-calling; more ad hominem attack. Is this the best you can
> > > do?
> 
> On 10 Feb 2004 at 13:00, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > Asking a verosopath questions ...<<
> 
> More name-calling, more ad hominem attack. Is this really the best, 
> the very best, you can do?
> 
> You call me names, Bob -- I don't call you names. You make ad hominem 
> attacks; I do not. I question your views and opinons, and if you 
> can't see that it's necessary to civil discussion to separate your 
> self from your views and opinions it's not really possible to have a 
> civil discussion with you. Kindly forbear your name-calling and ad 
> hominem attacks in the future.
> 
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Marcus

Nice snips and evasion, V.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 11 17:01:06 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:01:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4029E3DF.12176.21BD93@localhost>
Message-ID: <013b01c3f0ea$8d7f0070$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> On 10 Feb 2004 at 12:54, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > Calling people names is not the only way to attack a person.
> > Describing his work in a field he has devoted a large portion of his
> > life to as erroneous or ineffective is an attack on the person ...<<
>
> Sorry, Bob, but this is simply wrong. How long someone has worked on
> something has no bearing on whether it is a sound notion or not.

Describing a person's work in a field he has devoted a large portion of his
life to as erroneous or ineffective (whether it is or not, moron) is an
attack on the person .

> You
> cannot make an apple pie out of mud. If you think your notions have
> merit, then argue the merits; but name-calling me will not make your
> notions more sound if they're not. In order to have a civil
> discussion the participants have to be willing and able to separate
> their views from their selves.
>
> Marcus






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Feb 11 17:05:10 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:05:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <4029E414.2322.228BE3@localhost>
Message-ID: <014301c3f0eb$1f9c8cc0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> > The verosopath always wants others to draw lines he can attack.  He'll
> > never draw lines.<
> 
> More personal attack, more name-calling, more ad hominem. Is this 
> really what you think is defending your ideas on their merits, Bob?

No, it's simple description--apparently too accurate to be refuted..

--Bob G.



From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 12 07:50:51 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:50:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <013b01c3f0ea$8d7f0070$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <402B305B.26473.229009@localhost>

> > On 10 Feb 2004 at 12:54, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > Calling people names is not the only way to attack a person.
> > > Describing his work in a field he has devoted a large portion of
> > > his life to as erroneous or ineffective is an attack on the person
> > > ...<<

Marcus Bales
> > Sorry, Bob, but this is simply wrong. How long someone has worked on
> > something has no bearing on whether it is a sound notion or not.

On 11 Feb 2004 at 17:01, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Describing a person's work in a field he has devoted a large portion
> of his life to as erroneous or ineffective (whether it is or not,
> moron) is an attack on the person .

More name-calling -- is this really what you think constitutes 
defending your ideas on their merits? It is not name-calling or ad 
hominem attack to point out and support with evidence the flaws one 
finds in other peoples' work, irrespective of how long it too the 
other person to come to their conclusion. There is no credit for time 
spent, Bob -- if your notion is wrong, it is wrong -- otherwise you'd 
have to defend the proposition that a serial killer, having spent the 
same time killing people that you've spent on your taxonomy, had as 
good an idea as you have.  Do you really think that the length of 
time you hold an idea, or work on it, has anything to do with whether 
it's a good idea or not?
 
You cannot make an apple pie out of mud. If you think your notions have
merit, then argue the merits; but name-calling me will not make your
notions more sound if they're not. In order to have a civil
discussion the participants have to be willing and able to separate
their views from their selves.

Marcus





From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 12 07:50:52 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:50:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <f2.36b4edcd.2d5bb7ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <402B305C.7492.22922F@localhost>

On 11 Feb 2004 at 11:53, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Hmmmm. Well, how this turned to a discussion of whether I've read
> Yeats is hard to fathom ...<<

I was using your allusion to Yeats as an example of how you're trying 
to have it both ways: you seem to want to be able to make allusions 
in the service of trying to persuade others that there is no value to 
making allusions.

> . . . Do civilized people value order and coherence?<

Yes, I think they do -- they don't value ONLY order and coherence, 
but without order and coherence there isn't much civilization.

> We're at loggerheads over the
> central issue, an issue fundamental to art. You say <<I'd go so far as
> to argue that the art of art is to properly depict a voyage from a
> fixed point, and that that's just what Jorie Graham's, and other
> fragmented vagaries, texts do not do.>> While I say that the art of
> art is in no way so limited, some art being representational, some
> abstract, each faithful to a particular world view, those world views
> being largely different.<<

My response is that art is exactly a limitation, a deliberate and 
artificial limitation, the purpose of which is to provide focus. I 
view the notion of "art as anything anyone says it is" as mere blurt.

> Anyway, while I enjoy talking about poetry
> and do enjoy your mind and respect your tenacity, I don't much care
> for argument for the sake of argument and that seems to be where we've
> wound up. 

Sorry to hear you think so.

Marcus






From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 12 07:50:51 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:50:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <014301c3f0eb$1f9c8cc0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <402B305B.21437.229117@localhost>

> > More personal attack, more name-calling, more ad hominem. Is this
> > really what you think is defending your ideas on their merits, Bob?

On 11 Feb 2004 at 17:05, Bob Grumman wrote:
> No, it's simple description--apparently too accurate to be refuted..

It's refuted by pointing out it's mere name-calling. Is name-calling 
really what you conceive to be defending your ideas on their merits!?

Too bad.

Marcus
 





From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Feb 12 07:50:51 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:50:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <013701c3f0ea$26a66b40$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <402B305B.19145.228EF0@localhost>

> > > > On 9 Feb 2004 at 16:16, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > > > And what science do you use to objectively do that, V.?
> > 
> > On 10 Feb 2004 at 13:00, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > > Asking a verosopath questions ...<<

On 11 Feb 2004 at 16:58, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Nice snips and evasion, V.

Hey, who's the moderator on New Poetry? Is it policy to allow name-
calling here? 

Marcus






From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 12 10:52:57 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:52:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
References: <402B305B.19145.228EF0@localhost>
Message-ID: <016201c3f180$4abeec00$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Hey, who's the moderator on New Poetry? Is it policy to allow name-
> calling here?
>
> Marcus

James is the moderator.  I don't think he considers my name-calling
excessive enough to ban me, or even to issue a warning to me, though I have
no idea why not.  In case he gets tough, though, I'm going to stop defending
my ideas on their merits by calling you names, at least until June or so.

--Bob G.




From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Feb 13 07:58:31 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:58:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The story of Jorie
In-Reply-To: <016201c3f180$4abeec00$70efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <402C83A7.20062.23A7A7@localhost>

On 12 Feb 2004 at 10:52, Bob Grumman wrote:
> James is the moderator.  I don't think he considers my name-calling
> excessive enough to ban me, or even to issue a warning to me, though I
> have no idea why not.  In case he gets tough, though, I'm going to
> stop defending my ideas on their merits by calling you names, at least
> until June or so.

This "though I have no idea why not" seems implicitly to acknowledge 
that you are name-calling and know it; this "defending my ideas on 
their merits by calling you names" seems explicitly to acknowledge 
that you are name-calling and know it. 

I guess that's as much an apology as I can expect.

Marcus






From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Feb 13 15:32:04 2004
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:32:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Snowbound Series Chapbook Award
Message-ID: <24.4f12ac97.2d5e8e44@aol.com>

A brief commercial to remind y'all that the Tupelo Press Snowbound Series 
Chapbook competition has a postmark deadline of tomorrow (Happy Valentine's 
Day!). For guidelines, go to www.tupelopress.org and click on Awards. If this is 
the first you've heard of the chapbook award and you need extra time, simply 
write *new-poetry* on your envelope and postmark by the 18th. 

Jeffrey 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040213/e189d9b8/attachment.html>

From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 13 22:44:14 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:44:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] S'long for a while & a ditty by Marcel Duchamp
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEJGIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Lynda and I will be hitting the road and out of touch (viva Mexico) for 
three weeks starting this coming Monday (Feb. 16)--should (Dios willin'
and the crick don't rise) be back around Mar. 9.

I'll be going nomail sometime Sunday so this may be the last mailing from 
here for a while (unless something irresistible turns up tomorrow or 
Sunday). Stay tuned.

=====

The

If you come into * linen, your time is thirsty
because * ink saw some wood intelligent
enough to get giddiness from a sister.
However, even it should be smilable
to shut * hair whose * water
writes always in plural, they have avoided
* frequency, meaning mother in law; * powder
will take a chance; and * road could
try. But after somebody brought any
multiplication as soon as * stamp
was out, a great many cords refused
to go through. Around * wire's people,
who will be able to sweeten * rug,
that is to say why must every patent
look for a wife ? Pushing four dangers
near * listening-place, * vacation
had not dug absolutely nor this
likeness has eaten.

remplacer chaque *  par le mot: "the"

--Marcel Duchamp, 1915

in *Making Mischief: Dada Invades New York*
[New York: Whitney Museum of American Art, 1996]

Hal               

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb 14 16:18:14 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:18:14 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chris Murray's Text Files
Message-ID: <00f101c3f340$0ed67ca0$c0607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

With my thanks to Chris Murray, I will be the featured Poet of the week on her Text Files,

here is her link,
http://www.texfiles.blogspot.com/

and Happy Saint Valentine's to All,
Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Prayer

Whatever happens. Whatever
what is is is what
I want. Only that. But that.
Galway Kinnell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040214/e3ad8fbb/attachment.html>

From FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com  Sat Feb 14 16:20:14 2004
From: FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:20:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] WORLD VOICES AGAINST WAR
Message-ID: <19c.202aaa81.2d5feb0e@aol.com>

...i'm co-organizing and co-MC-ing this benefit at the Bowery Poetry Club 
with Mary Kalayna from the Global Women's Strike.

it will be an event to remember!  hope you can make it!
CAConrad

*******************************************************************
"World Voices Against War"
a benefit for the Global Women's Strike

World music, poetry, speakers, video

Sunday February 22
3-6pm
Bowery Poetry Club
308 Bowery, New York City
212-614-0505
www.bowerypoetry.com

Sliding scale donation $7-$20 (suggested $10)

Music by:

Special guests:  "Paris to Kyiv" -- featuring Alexis Kochan with Julian
Kytasty and Richard Moody, celebrates the spaces where cultures and eras
meet.  Starting from the deep musical traditions of Eastern Europe
(specifically Ukraine), they weave a striking musical tapestry that includes
strands of jazz and new music, medieval Slavonic chant,  dance tunes
recorded from Carpathian fiddlers and blind bandura players, original
compositions and ancient ritual songs with roots in the Neolithic.  They
come to New York fresh from their latest collaboration, a concert created
for CBC and RadioCanada with the Quebecois Celtic music group Rosheen.  This
is a rare chance to hear this acclaimed ensemble performing its latest work
up close and intimate.


"Alicate" -- traditional Venezuelan music with a Bolivarian message!

Tom Mullian -- Philadelphia singer/songwriter recently released from prison
for civil disobedience in opposition to war on Iraq

Poetry/readings by:

Carol Mirakove
Alicia Askenase
Rodrigo Toscano
Hassen
Frank Sherlock
Irene Zabytko
... and more!


Video excerpts from "Venezuela -- a 21st Century Revolution" and "Global
Women's Strike", with footage from women in previous Strike actions in
India, Spain, Uganda, England, Argentina, Peru . . .

Speakers!  Literature!  T-shirts!  Snacks and drinks!

And YOU!

Don't miss this chance to have a good time, hear some beautiful music and
poetry and show your opposition to war and military spending, all at the
same time!


For more information on the Global Women's Strike, see
http://www.globalwomenstrike.net.

for those who cannot make the event, but would like to
donate money, please make checks payable to:
Women In Dialog
and mail to:
Crossroads Women Center
33 Maplewood Mall
Philadelphia, PA 19144

Global Women's Strike: INVEST IN CARING, NOT KILLING





From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 14 20:30:56 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:30:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Hamilton Stone Review  #2
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKNIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hamilton Stone Editions announces the latest issue 
of the Hamilton Stone Review

Poems by      Jane Augustine,  Michael Heller, Sybil Kollar, Larry Goodell, 
                     Rebecca Kavaler, Lewis LaCook, Roger Mitchell, Rochelle Ratner,
                     Tom Raworth, and Joseph Somoza.

Stories by      Jane Lazarre, Richard Perry, and Susan Robbins. 

http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html

Poetry editor: Halvard Johnson
Fiction editor: Carole Rosenthal






From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Feb 14 22:39:31 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:39:31 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired article about IM with link to "game"
Message-ID: <200402150336.i1F3agbk028441@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Folks--

Just saw this article on Wired -- be careful if you get an instant message 
from someone on your list with a link on it that subsequently asks you to 
download what they say is a game. The terms of service allow the software 
to post ads on your computer and to send the links to everyone on you AOL 
IM buddy list.

http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,62251,00.html





From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 15 12:04:56 2004
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:04:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: AWP AND CHICAGO POETRY CALENDAR
In-Reply-To: <000101c3f3da$dc28fe40$1c290e18@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIELOIFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hi, Ray--

Jim Cervantes and I will be signing copies of our *Changing the
Subject* at the Red Hen Press table on Friday (Mar. 26) at 2 pm. Also,
if you're interested, my wife, the stunningly pomo Lynda Schor, will 
be taking part in a Fiction Collective 2 reading at Rain Dog Books, 
408 S. Michigan, at 8 pm on that very same Friday (Mar. 26).

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
The Sonnet Project:  
http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html

{    Dear Buffalo Listers:
{    
{    If any of you are reading or doing other activities during the AWP week here
{    in Chicago please send me the information so that I can post it on the
{    Chicago Postmodern Poetry Calendar Blog.  Also the Calendar has been
{    updated.
{    
{    Regds
{    
{    Raymond L Bianchi
{    chicagopostmodernpoetrycalendar.blogspot.com/
{    collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/
{    



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 15 14:42:41 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:42:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] S'long for a while & a ditty by Marcel Duchamp
Message-ID: <9a.3792d60.2d6125b1@aol.com>

Hal, have a good trip. I'll miss your regular
postings of poems by others.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040215/fd5bc0b7/attachment.html>

From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Feb 16 08:40:27 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:40:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c3f492$73b992d0$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Pattie McCarthy's Verso -
Pagination & interpretation

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Alice Jones' Gorgeous Mourning:
Transcending the roots of tradition

The Saragossa Manuscript -
Let me tell you a story

Charles Bernstein's World on Fire:
This time it's personal

Pound was the beginning:
A personal history of book buying

Unpacking my library:
Poets acquiring books

My walk with Gil
(a remembrance of Gil Ott)

Chax Press
& the poetry of Charles Alexander

kari edwards:
Identarian poetics
when identity is up for grabs

Robert Creeley's
If I were writing this

Brian Kim Stefans: 
post-avant jai-lai on a field of quietude

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Feb 16 12:09:12 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:09:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Hamilton Stone Review  #2
Message-ID: <1a4.1ffaf78e.2d625338@aol.com>

it's great, but why is it not open to submissions over the transom?

even in the case where -- as it seems to be here -- 

the solicited contributions don't seem to be from "poetry stars," just really 
solid poets, 

there doesn't seem to be a great deal of editorial prejudice, other than the 
number of Marsh Hawk Press authors, perhaps, and there are plenty of female 
poets!

or even where (not sure this is the editors' experience, but other editors I 
know have voiced it in the past) the quality of internet submissions received 
over the transom is low, and the busyness of e-mail submission traffic is 
annoying, 

really, why not have it open?  what's the benefit in not? 

A lot of these questions come from a recent discussion on wompo (moved from 
poetics), where it was found that for presses and journals closed to 
unsolicited submissions, male poets submitted anyway

All best,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040216/3e9a942b/attachment.html>

From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Feb 16 13:15:07 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:15:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] several posts, rolled into one
Message-ID: <136.2a6f6172.2d6262ab@aol.com>

Writers & Teachers Reading Series -- this is an ongoing series for writing 
teachers who also write in Los Angeles

Dodie Bellamy, author of The Letters of Mina Harker, Cunt Ups, & Pink Steam 
(forthcoming in June from Suspect Thoughts Press) 

will read with and introduce fiction writers she's mentored at Antioch Los 
Angeles: 

Steve Abee, author of The Bus: Cosmic Ejaculations of the Daily Mind in 
Transit & King Planet 

Lamar Hawkins, aka Lara Parker, author of Angelique's Descent: A Dark Shadows 
Novel 

Scott Kraft, theater, TV and screenwriter 

7 pm, February 17 
Barnes & Noble Booksellers 
10850 West Pico Blvd. 
(at Westwood Blvd.) 
Los Angeles, CA 90064 
310-475-4144 


It is about to expand to another Barnes & Noble, where it will be able to 
include small press editors and those they publish and journal launches

and I am also curating multimedia & performance, mostly, at an LA club called 
the smell http://thesmell.org/index1.html


New reviews of DaDaDa: 

Shearsman 
http://www.shearsman.com/pages/magazine/current_issue/newreviews.html

A draft one on a personal site 
http://dylanharris.org/prose/poetry/dadada.html

Additionally, if you don't have a copy yet, why not buy it straight from me, 
and I'll throw in a copy of my *new* Belladonna chapbook, the poem "Surplice" 
from the sequel to _DaDaDa_, _OOD:  Object-Oriented Design_, plus shipping?

Let me know,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net

http://cadaly.blogspot.com


 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040216/f703abc9/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb 16 15:41:23 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:41:23 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Art Criticism Matter?
Message-ID: <148.22356673.2d6284f3@aol.com>

I've read two little books that I want to call attention to. Perhaps it's
evidence of a declining attention span, but I find myself 
finishing shorter books and only browsing through tomes these days.

The first is called _What Happened to Art Criticism?_ by James
Elkins (Prickly Paradigm Press, 2003). (Some of you probably know 
Elkin's book,  _What Painting Is_.) This small book calls to mind 
Gioia's essay, "Can Poetry Matter?," but when it comes to a prescriptive 
close, Elkins gives his chapter of correctives the modest title, 
"Seven Unworkable Cures." 

What I like most about the book is that Elkins does a very good
job of explaining the landscape of contemporary art criticism,
showing how it is practiced: the methods and their consequences. 
He's also good at introducing the cast of characters involved,
and he gives one a taste of their particular biases, backgrounds, 
and influences. Much of what he says could be overlayed on 
contemporary literary criticism and book reviewing.

Here are a few outtakes:

"From my point of view, a complicated and conflicted artist 
is more interesting than one who is simply fabulous, but catalog
essays are read the way employers read letters of recommendation:
the slightest hint of something wrong, and the writer is taken to
secretly abhor the person being recommended." 

"Contemporary art criticism is entranced by the possibility of 
avoiding judgment, and critics who equate description and judgment
sometimes deceive themselves about their own interest in 
avoiding judgment."

"Poetic art criticism has a noble lineage; it also includes Baudelaire
and Wilde, both of whom said that ideal art criticism was poetry or--
in Baudelaire's conceit--"sonnet or elegy." When it is not the case that
the critic is a poet, then poetry is an emblem of the desire to create
writing that is interesting in and of itself."

(In his essay he describes contemporary art criticism as a 7-headed hydra,
"poetic art criticism" being the seventh head.)

"I find myself most engaged by critics who are serious about judgment,
by which I mean that they offer judgments, and--this is what matters most--
they then pause to assess those judgments. Why did I write that? such
a critic may ask, or Who first thought that? Art criticism is a forum for 
the concept and operation of judgment, not merely a place where judgments 
are asserted, and certainly not a place where they are evaded."

--
I'm going to stop here and mention the other book in a separate 
post because it is a very different kind of book from this one.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040216/8cb29396/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb 16 15:47:10 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:47:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Failing Light
Message-ID: <75.2282df1b.2d62864e@aol.com>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30475-2004Feb10.html
The Failing Light 
Why did a rising young poet (Reetika Vazirani) plunge into despair, 
taking her own life and the life of her 2-year-old son?     
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040216/7afd85b8/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb 16 17:33:43 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:33:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Q&A with UH poet Tony Hoagland
Message-ID: <159.2dd82859.2d629f47@aol.com>

Q&A with UH poet Tony Hoagland
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2403470

One of the greatest things that's happened to me is there's 
this rock 'n' roll star named Ani DiFranco -- a pretty famous 
outlaw tough-girl political rocker -- and she reads my poems 
at her concerts. So 5,000 people get to hear one of my poems 
in the middle of a rock 'n' roll concert. That's penetration. 
I've never met her and never talked to her, but I'm totally 
grateful to her. She's a good musician, too. 
    
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040216/d4467df1/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 16 18:16:49 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:16:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Failing Light
References: <75.2282df1b.2d62864e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004201c3f4e2$f574e1d0$8c737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Shocking to read the entire story. There is much from the outside to understand, and little from the inside to rest upon. It's difficult to accept. Rationality speaks one way, emotive perception another, and they keep on switching sides. I think people cannot realize, as Rita Dove stated all along. There is no fault, and we _as the ones who have inherited history_ are all guilty - in a Darwinian sense. 

Take care, Anny 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 9:47 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] The Failing Light


  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30475-2004Feb10.html
  The Failing Light 
  Why did a rising young poet (Reetika Vazirani) plunge into despair, 
  taking her own life and the life of her 2-year-old son? 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040217/bc00365b/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 17 08:47:29 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:47:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Is this mike on?
Message-ID: <55.511829dc.2d637571@aol.com>

Test...testing 1,2,3.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040217/ddd6bd12/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 17 12:53:12 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:53:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another test
Message-ID: <69.416b2617.2d63af08@aol.com>

Sorry for the nuisance, but it seems
the listserv software somehow put me in "no mail"
status a few days ago. Strange, I don't
remember going away for a long weekend. 
I hope I had fun.
Finnegan


From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 17 15:44:08 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:44:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another test
In-Reply-To: <69.416b2617.2d63af08@aol.com>
Message-ID: <403236C8.25398.7640E@localhost>

Well, this and your previous test are the only NPL mail I've gotten 
in a couple days.
Marcus


On 17 Feb 2004 at 12:53, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Sorry for the nuisance, but it seems
> the listserv software somehow put me in "no mail"
> status a few days ago. Strange, I don't
> remember going away for a long weekend. 
> I hope I had fun.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From kpaul at mallasch.com  Tue Feb 17 16:46:41 2004
From: kpaul at mallasch.com (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:46:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another test
In-Reply-To: <403236C8.25398.7640E@localhost>
References: <403236C8.25398.7640E@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040217164616.S78880@kpaul.spinweb.net>

if you don't get this, please respond. . .


;)


-kpaul
mallasch.com


p.s. actually got that email once...

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Marcus Bales wrote:

> Well, this and your previous test are the only NPL mail I've gotten
> in a couple days.
> Marcus
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2004 at 12:53, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Sorry for the nuisance, but it seems
> > the listserv software somehow put me in "no mail"
> > status a few days ago. Strange, I don't
> > remember going away for a long weekend.
> > I hope I had fun.
> > Finnegan
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


From MillB at aol.com  Tue Feb 17 16:54:46 2004
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:54:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another test
Message-ID: <13.283b1052.2d63e7a6@aol.com>

I didn't get it.  What's the joke?


I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools.
Let's start with typewriters.

       Frank Lloyd Wright
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040217/5a19389e/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Wed Feb 18 11:29:15 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:29:15 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for papers
Message-ID: <002101c3f63c$5a547160$20737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:47:26 +0100
To: eaas-l at let.uu.nl
 >From: <samuel.ludwig at ens.unibe.ch>



CALL FOR PAPERS

SANAS Conference on
American Poetry: Whitman to the Present

FRIBOURG 12-13 NOVEMBER 2004


The Conference of the Swiss Association of North American
Studies (SANAS) will be held at the University of Fribourg, Friday
and Saturday, 12-13 November 2004, on "American Poetry: Whitman to
the Present."
Papers are invited on all aspects of American poetry and
poetics, comparisons of poets, comparisons of poets with other
writers (American or not), on the inter-relations between poetry and
fiction, poetic style, poetic form, prose poetry, the personal epic,
anti-epic poetry, poetic anxieties of influence, poetry as a cultural
phenomenon, poetry and (post)modernity, poetry and politics, poetry
and nationalism, the politics of poetry anthologies, poetry and
publishing, problems in poetry editing, the role of translation in
modern poetry, poetry and theory, major issues in poetry criticism
and literary history.
Please send a 250 word synopsis of your proposed paper by
e-mail to robert.rehder at unifr.ch or by regular mail to Robert Rehder,
Chair of English and American Literature, Universit=E9 de Fribourg,
Avenue de l'Europe 20, 1700 Fribourg, Suisse by 15 May 2004.  Please
write: SANAS Conference on your e-mail or envelope. As usual, papers
will be twenty minutes (20) with ten minutes (10) for discussion.
If all goes as planned, there will be one lecture in the
morning by a scholar from an American university and one by a scholar
from a European university and readings by two American poets, then
lunch and papers in the afternoon. There will be an optional dinner
for those who wish to subscribe on Friday evening.
It is hoped that we will be able to publish a volume of the
conference papers. The papers will be selected by the editors
according to the decision of the last SANAS meeting (at Geneva) that
all publications sponsored by SANAS must be refereed.
We look forward to welcoming everyone in Fribourg!



LUDWIG, PhD
Institut d'Anglais
=46LSH - Universit=E9 de Haute-Alsace
10 rue des Fr=E8res Lumi=E8re
68200 Mulhouse
=46RANCE
Email: <ludwig at ens.unibe.ch>
private address:
Grossmatt 18
CH-4616 Kappel
SWITZERLAND
Phone: ++41.62.216.6929

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040218/31f13eb1/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Feb 18 21:50:28 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:50:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
Message-ID: <BC598094.6C9E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Gulls in the Wind 


Bedraggled feathers like bonnets
that would fly off if they weren't strapped,
kazoo voiced, a chorus of crying dolphins
or rusty sirens a speck of dust could set off?
these raucous gleaners milling around

pick up and discard, now a Q-tip,
now a shred of lettuce or cellophane,
a cigarette butt one holds a second
as if he really might smoke. One drags
an old condom, one spots a good crumb

and walk-runs, squawks everyone else away.
But it's just a dried scrap of weed he'll toss back,
grist for the next fool's expectation.
Still, a loud alpha catches wind,
scoots over to check it out. Shove off,

he screeches, this is my no-good, barren,
motel-infested spit of sand?on which
he neither toils or spins, but grubs all day
on webbed feet and clever back-hinged knees,
now skittishly sidestepping a gusty

piece of plastic blown against his legs,
hopping to get it off, now shaking it
once or twice to make sure it's worthless
before he turns his face to the wind,
letting it smooth those fine fractious feathers.


Betsy Sholl.  *The Maine Poets*.  Down East Books, 2004.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 19 07:43:46 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:43:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
References: <BC598094.6C9E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <016601c3f6e6$07391bc0$5fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Thjis is another example of what I call Iowa Workshop Poetry--a first-rate
one: a well-observed, impeccably-expressed, interesting picture of something
out of the everyday.  It crackles beyond itself into higher concerns of
Ecology, man vs. non-human life, and the archetypal Final Significance of
The Struggle To Survive.  But . . . what's the point of it, beyond the point
of first-rate painters to paint postcard pictures of coastlines or city
parks or the like?  I tend to like more postcard pictures than I don't, and
I have books of postcard paintings I prize, and a few on the wall.  But what
I call Serious Art is two or three orders of magnitude more valuable to me.

Comments welcome but be aware that I may quote them in the blog I've now
been stumblingly carrying on at
http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html.



> Gulls in the Wind
>
>
> Bedraggled feathers like bonnets
> that would fly off if they weren't strapped,
> kazoo voiced, a chorus of crying dolphins
> or rusty sirens a speck of dust could set off<
> these raucous gleaners milling around
>
> pick up and discard, now a Q-tip,
> now a shred of lettuce or cellophane,
> a cigarette butt one holds a second
> as if he really might smoke. One drags
> an old condom, one spots a good crumb
>
> and walk-runs, squawks everyone else away.
> But it's just a dried scrap of weed he'll toss back,
> grist for the next fool's expectation.
> Still, a loud alpha catches wind,
> scoots over to check it out. Shove off,
>
> he screeches, this is my no-good, barren,
> motel-infested spit of sand > he neither toils or spins, but grubs all day
> on webbed feet and clever back-hinged knees,
> now skittishly sidestepping a gusty
>
> piece of plastic blown against his legs,
> hopping to get it off, now shaking it
> once or twice to make sure it's worthless
> before he turns his face to the wind,
> letting it smooth those fine fractious feathers.
>
>
> Betsy Sholl.  *The Maine Poets*.  Down East Books, 2004.
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Thom424 at aol.com  Thu Feb 19 08:16:43 2004
From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:16:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
Message-ID: <125.2aed1265.2d66113b@aol.com>


In a message dated 2/19/04 6:44:46 AM, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


> bly-expressed, interesting picture of something
> out of the everyday.? It crackles beyond itself into higher concerns of
> Ecology, man vs. non-human life, and the archetypal Final Significance of
> The Struggle To Survive.? But . . . what's the point of it, beyond the point
> of first-rate painters to paint postcard pictures of coastlines or city
> parks or the like?? I tend to like more postcard pictures than I don't, and
> I have books of postcard paintings I prize, and a few on the wall.? But what
> I call Serious Art is two or three orders of magnitude more valuable to me.
> 
> 

bob,

would you mind identifying (or posting, in case i'm not familiar with it or 
them), one or two poems that are two or three orders of magnitude more valuable 
to you than scholl's poem. i've saved david's post of the scholl poem, and 
i'd like to read her poem and your choices side-by-side. i've been doing 
something similar to this in my poetry workshops--placing poems (about which high 
claims are made) side-by-side and seeing what the similarities, differences, 
tastes, controversies, combustions emerge. 


thanks,

thom tammaro
moorhead, mn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040219/558345c5/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 19 17:19:10 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:19:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
References: <125.2aed1265.2d66113b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015b01c3f736$67534170$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I just made my blurto reply, and stand by it.  By wait for my blog entry on this.  It should be the 19 February entry at 

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html

before the day is out.

    bly-expressed, interesting picture of something
    out of the everyday.  It crackles beyond itself into higher concerns of
    Ecology, man vs. non-human life, and the archetypal Final Significance of
    The Struggle To Survive.  But . . . what's the point of it, beyond the point
    of first-rate painters to paint postcard pictures of coastlines or city
    parks or the like?  I tend to like more postcard pictures than I don't, and
    I have books of postcard paintings I prize, and a few on the wall.  But what
    I call Serious Art is two or three orders of magnitude more valuable to me.




  bob,

  would you mind identifying (or posting, in case i'm not familiar with it or them), one or two poems that are two or three orders of magnitude more valuable to you than scholl's poem. i've saved david's post of the scholl poem, and i'd like to read her poem and your choices side-by-side. i've been doing something similar to this in my poetry workshops--placing poems (about which high claims are made) side-by-side and seeing what the similarities, differences, tastes, controversies, combustions emerge. 


  thanks,

  thom tammaro
  moorhead, mn 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040219/3da36e6c/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Feb 19 17:16:13 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:16:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
References: <125.2aed1265.2d66113b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014f01c3f735$fe5b0090$6cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

lighght
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thom424 at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 8:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl



  In a message dated 2/19/04 6:44:46 AM, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:



    bly-expressed, interesting picture of something
    out of the everyday.  It crackles beyond itself into higher concerns of
    Ecology, man vs. non-human life, and the archetypal Final Significance of
    The Struggle To Survive.  But . . . what's the point of it, beyond the point
    of first-rate painters to paint postcard pictures of coastlines or city
    parks or the like?  I tend to like more postcard pictures than I don't, and
    I have books of postcard paintings I prize, and a few on the wall.  But what
    I call Serious Art is two or three orders of magnitude more valuable to me.




  bob,

  would you mind identifying (or posting, in case i'm not familiar with it or them), one or two poems that are two or three orders of magnitude more valuable to you than scholl's poem. i've saved david's post of the scholl poem, and i'd like to read her poem and your choices side-by-side. i've been doing something similar to this in my poetry workshops--placing poems (about which high claims are made) side-by-side and seeing what the similarities, differences, tastes, controversies, combustions emerge. 


  thanks,

  thom tammaro
  moorhead, mn 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040219/b5730dda/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Feb 19 20:40:04 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:40:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Neruda
Message-ID: <21.3ab518fb.2d66bf74@aol.com>

Date:? ? Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:06:55 -0800
From:? ? Ram Devineni <rattapallax at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: "?Neruda! ?Presente!" documentary

Dear Friends: I am working with Mark Eisner to raise
funds for a remarkable documentary on Pablo Neruda.
Mark also edited the =93The Essential Neruda,=94 published
by City Lights. He is making a wonderful offer below:

Make a $25 or more donation to the new Neruda
documentary =93=A1Neruda! =A1Presente!=94 and receive a copy
signed by editor Mark Eisner mailed to you as soon as
they are released.

I hope you are interested and more info can be found
at:=20
www.nerudadoc.org

The site also has ordering information.

Thanks,
Ram Devineni
Publisher
Rattapallax


Ariel Dorfman, author of Death and the Maiden on =93The
Essential Neruda:=94

=93What better way to celebrate the hundred years of
Neruda's glorious residence on our earth than this
selection of crucial works - in both languages! - by
one of the greatest poets of all time. A splendid way
to begin a love affair with our Pablo or, having
already succumbed to his infinite charms, revisit him
passionately again and again and yet again."=20

As part of the Pablo Neruda Centennial Project, this
new book of translations of Neruda=92s poetry into
English has been crafted. The book is like a red poppy
and features nearly 50 of Neruda=92s most essential
poems, if such a distinction can be made.

It includes translations by Robert Hass, Forrest
Gander, Stephen Mitchell, Stephen Kessler, John
Felstiner, Alastair Reid, and Jack Hirschman. It is
edited by Mark Eisner, whose translations also appear.
Lawrence Ferlinghetti will provide an introductory
note.

As Gregory Rabassa, extensive translator of Latin
American literature from Mario Vargas Llosa to Gabriel
Garc=EDa Marquez puts it: "a translation is never
finished...it is open and could go on to infinity."
While the original poet's pen frames the words, the
translator transforms, but does not cast them. It is
an ongoing procedure, an ongoing art, visiting
previous attempts and choices, then molding them with
new perspective. Edmund Keeley, prominent translator
of Greek poetry, wrote: "translation is a moveable
feast...there must always be room for retouching and
sharpening that image as new taste and new perception
may indicate."

The discovery and affirmation of those new perceptions
were achieved through this project=92s collaborative
effort. Scholars across both North and South
America=97Nerudianos=97were asked to participate in the
project, forming a bridge linking academics, editor,
and poets.

The results are brilliant poems.

Stanford's Center for Latin American Studies,
Department of Spanish and Portuguese, and Creative
Writing program have all helped fund this project.

Donate $25 or more and receive a free copy of the book
in April! WWW.NERUDADOC.ORG
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040219/aed17c12/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Feb 19 22:01:31 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:01:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
Message-ID: <c3.3e33e5f1.2d66d28b@aol.com>

I think what is interesting in the poem is the
indecision: Is this just a cartoon, Hekyll & Jekyll
in white-face (or feathers, as it were), or is it going
to be an environmentally-conscious ecologue.
I could have done with a little less anthropomorphizing
of the gulls.
Finnegan  

In a message dated 2/18/2004 9:48:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> Gulls in the Wind 
> 
> 
> Bedraggled feathers like bonnets
> that would fly off if they weren't strapped,
> kazoo voiced, a chorus of crying dolphins
> or rusty sirens a speck of dust could set off?
> these raucous gleaners milling around
> 
> pick up and discard, now a Q-tip,
> now a shred of lettuce or cellophane,
> a cigarette butt one holds a second
> as if he really might smoke. One drags
> an old condom, one spots a good crumb
> 
> and walk-runs, squawks everyone else away.
> But it's just a dried scrap of weed he'll toss back,
> grist for the next fool's expectation.
> Still, a loud alpha catches wind,
> scoots over to check it out. Shove off,
> 
> he screeches, this is my no-good, barren,
> motel-infested spit of sand?on which
> he neither toils or spins, but grubs all day
> on webbed feet and clever back-hinged knees,
> now skittishly sidestepping a gusty
> 
> piece of plastic blown against his legs,
> hopping to get it off, now shaking it
> once or twice to make sure it's worthless
> before he turns his face to the wind,
> letting it smooth those fine fractious feathers.
> 
> 
> Betsy Sholl.  *The Maine Poets*.  Down East Books, 2004.
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040219/90572419/attachment.html>

From chryss at silcom.com  Sat Feb 21 01:07:59 2004
From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:07:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Loss to Poetry: Fred Morgan
Message-ID: <BC5C35BF.13E2%chryss@silcom.com>

Poetry has lost a great advocate and talent. Frederick Morgan, founder of
the Hudson Review and editor for over 50 years and a gifted poet, died today
of pneumonia. 
Fred was loved by all who knew him. He was the center of a community of
poets who honored his unwavering commitment to excellence. He believed in
creating opportunities for others.
It is a sad day for poetry and  for the many poets who were influenced by
Fred's deep love for our art.
C.




From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 21 11:47:37 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:47:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Loss to Poetry: Fred Morgan
Message-ID: <6f.421d36c8.2d68e5a9@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/21/2004 10:45:47 AM Central Standard Time, 
chryss at silcom.com writes: 
> Poetry has lost a great advocate and talent. Frederick Morgan, founder of
> the Hudson Review and editor for over 50 years and a gifted poet, died today
> of pneumonia. 
> Fred was loved by all who knew him. He was the center of a community of
> poets who honored his unwavering commitment to excellence. He believed in
> creating opportunities for others.
> It is a sad day for poetry and  for the many poets who were influenced by
> Fred's deep love for our art.
> C.
No need to say more.  I'll just second this.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/9ee7f8ca/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 21 14:54:30 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:54:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
In-Reply-To: <c3.3e33e5f1.2d66d28b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC5D1396.6DEF%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I find the poem pretty funny, and for me it balances nicely if precariously
on that cartoony edge of Disneyish personification--quite aware of its own
extravagance, seems to me.  In any case, I posted it not to claim it as
supplanting "Easter 1916" or as revolutionizing verse in our time (sorry,
Bob, but I just can't take your bait).  Just a nifty descriptive poem.

I brought it into a creative writing workshop last week, in fact, in order
to talk about how jazzy language can enliven even the most ordinary of
topics.

DG


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I think what is interesting in the poem is the
indecision: Is this just a cartoon, Hekyll & Jekyll
in white-face (or feathers, as it were), or is it going
to be an environmentally-conscious ecologue.
I could have done with a little less anthropomorphizing
of the gulls.
Finnegan  
_______________________________________

Gulls in the Wind 


Bedraggled feathers like bonnets
that would fly off if they weren't strapped,
kazoo voiced, a chorus of crying dolphins
or rusty sirens a speck of dust could set off?
these raucous gleaners milling around

pick up and discard, now a Q-tip,
now a shred of lettuce or cellophane,
a cigarette butt one holds a second
as if he really might smoke. One drags
an old condom, one spots a good crumb

and walk-runs, squawks everyone else away.
But it's just a dried scrap of weed he'll toss back,
grist for the next fool's expectation.
Still, a loud alpha catches wind,
scoots over to check it out. Shove off,

he screeches, this is my no-good, barren,
motel-infested spit of sand?on which
he neither toils or spins, but grubs all day
on webbed feet and clever back-hinged knees,
now skittishly sidestepping a gusty

piece of plastic blown against his legs,
hopping to get it off, now shaking it
once or twice to make sure it's worthless
before he turns his face to the wind,
letting it smooth those fine fractious feathers.


Betsy Sholl.  *The Maine Poets*.  Down East Books, 2004.





====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================







From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 21 15:18:49 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:18:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler review
Message-ID: <BC5D1949.6DF8%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Tomorrow's NYTimes reviews August Kleinzahler's new book, recently mentioned
in this space.  And you can read it today with one click:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/books/review/22MCLANET.html

They also include the first 20 or so pages of the book in their excerpt
feature.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sat Feb 21 15:38:08 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:38:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler review
References: <BC5D1949.6DF8%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <002f01c3f8ba$9ddd7e10$37737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Dear David Graham,

how can you possibly read tomorrow's news when I am still stuck with the
ones of the day before yesterday?
Much appreciated, anyhow, (just protesting because and because it's like
sinking here)

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Is all that what we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?
Edgar Allan Poe

From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 9:18 PM


> Tomorrow's NYTimes reviews August Kleinzahler's new book, recently
mentioned
> in this space.  And you can read it today with one click:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/books/review/22MCLANET.html
>
> They also include the first 20 or so pages of the book in their excerpt
> feature.
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 21 15:59:47 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:59:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Something to 'Howl' About
Message-ID: <a9.51c559a1.2d6920c3@aol.com>

> >Thursday, February 19, 2004, Los Angeles Times
> >Something to 'Howl' About: Ginsberg's Icon-Busting Poem Resonates in the
Patriot Act Era
> >
> >by Jonah Raskin
> >
> >
> >
> >Fifty years ago, an unpublished 28-year-old American poet came into the
United States at Mexicali dreaming of literary glory. His name was Allen
Ginsberg, and after traveling from New York to Havana and through the
jungles of Mexico, he was eager to write the great American poem. It? was
time for him to take his rightful place, or so he thought, with Walt
Whitman and William Carlos Williams in the poet pantheon.

> >In California in 1954 - the year the nation began to emerge from
McCarthyism, the Korean War and legal segregation in the South - Ginsberg
began to shed his New York skin and cast himself as a wild West Coast poet.
He wanted to write an explosive, apocalyptic poem befitting the Atomic Age.
He would sing of himself and his country, with its "infernal bombs,"
"industries / of night" and "dreams / of war." Nothing would stop him, not
his own "solitary craze" and certainly not the conformity of the times - the
Eisenhower era, the Cold War - that seemed so antithetical to rebels with or
without causes.
> >
> >The first draft of "Howl" poured out of him. But for nearly a year
afterward, Ginsberg revised, reorganized and reshaped it, section by
section, word by word. When he was done, he knew he'd created the great
American poem he'd set out to write. It was a personal coming-out, and to
the hipsters of the 1950s it announced the liberation of an entire
generation.
> >
> >"Howl" was overtly antiwar and anti-capitalist. It mocked the FBI,
condemned "scholars of war" and, at the dawn of the age of Hugh Hefner's
suave playboy, celebrated the male sexual outlaw who made love in "empty
lots & diner / backyards." It also challenged the conventional poetry of its
day. It was boldly lyrical, intensely personal, ironic, ambiguous - and very
funny.
> >
> >Not surprisingly, Ginsberg's poem electrified audiences everywhere. In
San Francisco, where he performed it for the first time in 1955, Lawrence
Ferlinghetti, proprietor of the fledgling City Lights Books, promised to
publish it in the City Lights Pocket Poets Series. In Hollywood, after the
poet disrobed and stood naked before a shocked crowd, Ana?s Nin applauded
him as a genius and celebrated his work as a masterpiece of surrealism.
Indeed, "Howl" practically screamed surrealism in phrases like "hydrogen
jukebox" and "drunken taxi cabs." And, beneath its raucous surface, an
astute reader might also hear the cosmopolitan voice of T.S. Eliot. Of all
the outrageous words in the poem, it was the F-word and the S-word that drew
the ire of authorities. The little book was seized by U.S. Customs -
Ferlinghetti had contracted with British printers, hoping to circumvent
censorship - and then the San Francisco police stepped in.? In 1957,
Ferlinghetti went on trial for obscenity, while Ginsberg, who had left for
Europe in 1956, promoted the book shamelessly everywhere he went. Back home,
the American Civil Liberties Union came to the rescue. Judge Clayton Horn
ruled for "Howl" and the 1st Amendment. Suddenly the poem that began as a
personal statement and an individual vision turned into a bestseller. It was
translated into more than two dozen languages and read around the world as a
cry against everything that wasn't cool.
> >
> > From the opening line - "I have seen the best minds of my generation
destroyed by madness, starving / hysterical, naked" - to the last peaceful
image of a "cottage in the western night," "Howl" inspired generations of
artists, musicians and nonconformists, from Bob Dylan to Patti Smith, from
hippies to punk rockers to today's rappers. The outlaw poem made it into the
standard anthologies. And it helped liberate American literature from
European traditions, making room for the? American vernacular, mythologizing
American places and people.
> >
> >Ginsberg never wrote another poem as original as "Howl," but he still
produced decades of memorable, often inspired, work. And he went on defying
the established order - protesting against the Vietnam War, nuclear weapons,
censorship and intolerance. And in the age of the Patriot Act, weapons of
mass destruction and U.S. Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft, "Howl" is just as
subversive, seductive and irreverent as ever. Were Ginsberg alive today - he
died in 1997 at age 70 - he would demand an end to war and declare the
imminent advent of paradise. He would make poetry matter again, as he did
with "Howl"? half a
century ago.

> >
> >Jonah Raskin's book "American Scream: Allen Ginsberg's Howl and the
> Making
> >of the Beat Generation" (University of California Press) will be
> published
> >in March.
> >
> >Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/6fb0f6e7/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 21 16:30:30 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:30:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wolf accuses Bloom
Message-ID: <1db.1aa2a6c7.2d6927f6@aol.com>

Feminist in sex claim after 20 years 

BEN MCCONVILLE IN NEW HAVEN 

NAOMI Wolf, the feminist author, has accused one of her former professors at 
Yale University of sexually harassing her while she was an undergraduate at 
the Ivy League establishment in the Eighties. 

The man she has accused is Harold Bloom, 73, Sterling Professor of Humanities 
at Yale and a prominent literary critic and Shakespeare scholar who has 
written more than 20 books about the Bible, Milton and poetry. 

Prof Bloom has refused to comment, but told friends the allegation was a 
"vicious lie". 

In an article to appear in Monday?s issue of New York magazine, the 
controversial author, who has been described as the United States?s most important 
feminist, also claims she has evidence of systemic abuse at the hands of staff 
from ten other women over a 20-year period at Yale. 

Wolf, who studied literature at Yale, took a PhD in feminist theory at Oxford 
and studied in Edinburgh before returning to the US. She decided to take on 
her alma mater after she had been asked by the university to help raise money. 

"I felt I had to tell them why I was reluctant to do so," she said. "I then 
had many conversations with Yale authorities over a period of months, telling 
my story, hoping for a meeting to address my concerns about the school?s 
grievance procedures. I got nowhere. 

"Several distinguished women have come forward in my piece to attest to the 
fact that there is a systemic problem at Yale University. 

"My story will speak for itself." 

A rival feminist writer, Camille Paglia, who traded insults with Wolf in the 
early Nineties over their radically different views on female sexual power, 
said she was shocked to learn of her accusations against Prof Bloom, who is her 
long-time mentor. 

Paglia, who once called Wolf a "yuppie feminist", accused the author of 
launching a witch hunt similar to those that swept New England in the 17th century, 
and of exploiting her looks to advance her career. 

She said: "It really smacks of the Salem witch hunts and all the accompanying 
hysteria. 

"It really grates on me that Naomi Wolf for her entire life has been batting 
her eyes and bobbing her boobs in the face of men and made a profession out of 
courting male attention by flirting and offering her sexual allure. 

"I just feel it?s indecent that if Naomi Wolf did not have the courage to 
pursue the matter at the time, or in the 1990s, then to bring all of this down on 
a man who is in his 70s and has health problems - who has become a culture 
hero to readers in the humanities around the world - to drag him into a ?he 
said/she said? scenario so late in the game, to me demonstrates a lack of 
proportion and a basic sense of fair play." 

Paglia, who is professor of humanities and media studies at the University of 
the Arts in Philadelphia, where she said she helped institute that university?
s sexual-harassment policies in the 1980s, said: "At the beginning of the 
1990s, people said, ?Oh, Naomi Wolf, this great thinker.? But what she?s managed 
to do in ten years is marginalise herself as a chronicler of teenage angst. 

"She doesn?t want to leave that magic island when she was the ripening 
teenager. How many times do we have to relive Naomi Wolf?s growing up? How many 
books, how many articles, Naomi, are you going to impose on us so we have to be 
dragged back to your teenage-heartbreak years? 

"This is regressive. It?s childish. Move on. Move on. Get on to menopause 
next." 

Helaine Klasky, a spokesman for Yale, said she had not seen the article and 
could not comment on it. 

She said Wolf contacted the university last month with a number of requests 
and wanted to explore filing a complaint of sexual harassment against Prof 
Bloom. 

Ms Klasky said Wolf was told she was not permitted under Yale statutes to 
file sexual-harassment complaints 20 years after an alleged event occurred. The 
university has a two-year statute of limitations on such complaints. 

Since Wolf?s days at Yale - she graduated in 1986 - the university has, like 
many of its counterparts, strengthened its sexual-harassment grievance 
procedures. 

In the late 1990s, it instituted a strict policy forbidding relationships 
between students and teachers. 

New York magazine said it was "fact-checking" the article before it appears.
    
    
    


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/92959485/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sat Feb 21 16:49:08 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:49:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Something to 'Howl' About
References: <a9.51c559a1.2d6920c3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c3f8c4$88b46cb0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

This is a nice, evocative appreciation. Thanks for posting it, Jim.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 3:59 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Something to 'Howl' About


  > >Thursday, February 19, 2004, Los Angeles Times
  > >Something to 'Howl' About: Ginsberg's Icon-Busting Poem Resonates in the
  Patriot Act Era
  > >
  > >by Jonah Raskin
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >Fifty years ago, an unpublished 28-year-old American poet came into the
  United States at Mexicali dreaming of literary glory. His name was Allen
  Ginsberg, and after traveling from New York to Havana and through the
  jungles of Mexico, he was eager to write the great American poem. It  was
  time for him to take his rightful place, or so he thought, with Walt
  Whitman and William Carlos Williams in the poet pantheon.

  > >In California in 1954 - the year the nation began to emerge from
  McCarthyism, the Korean War and legal segregation in the South - Ginsberg
  began to shed his New York skin and cast himself as a wild West Coast poet.
  He wanted to write an explosive, apocalyptic poem befitting the Atomic Age.
  He would sing of himself and his country, with its "infernal bombs,"
  "industries / of night" and "dreams / of war." Nothing would stop him, not
  his own "solitary craze" and certainly not the conformity of the times - the
  Eisenhower era, the Cold War - that seemed so antithetical to rebels with or
  without causes.
  > >
  > >The first draft of "Howl" poured out of him. But for nearly a year
  afterward, Ginsberg revised, reorganized and reshaped it, section by
  section, word by word. When he was done, he knew he'd created the great
  American poem he'd set out to write. It was a personal coming-out, and to
  the hipsters of the 1950s it announced the liberation of an entire
  generation.
  > >
  > >"Howl" was overtly antiwar and anti-capitalist. It mocked the FBI,
  condemned "scholars of war" and, at the dawn of the age of Hugh Hefner's
  suave playboy, celebrated the male sexual outlaw who made love in "empty
  lots & diner / backyards." It also challenged the conventional poetry of its
  day. It was boldly lyrical, intensely personal, ironic, ambiguous - and very
  funny.
  > >
  > >Not surprisingly, Ginsberg's poem electrified audiences everywhere. In
  San Francisco, where he performed it for the first time in 1955, Lawrence
  Ferlinghetti, proprietor of the fledgling City Lights Books, promised to
  publish it in the City Lights Pocket Poets Series. In Hollywood, after the
  poet disrobed and stood naked before a shocked crowd, Ana?s Nin applauded
  him as a genius and celebrated his work as a masterpiece of surrealism.
  Indeed, "Howl" practically screamed surrealism in phrases like "hydrogen
  jukebox" and "drunken taxi cabs." And, beneath its raucous surface, an
  astute reader might also hear the cosmopolitan voice of T.S. Eliot. Of all
  the outrageous words in the poem, it was the F-word and the S-word that drew
  the ire of authorities. The little book was seized by U.S. Customs -
  Ferlinghetti had contracted with British printers, hoping to circumvent
  censorship - and then the San Francisco police stepped in.  In 1957,
  Ferlinghetti went on trial for obscenity, while Ginsberg, who had left for
  Europe in 1956, promoted the book shamelessly everywhere he went. Back home,
  the American Civil Liberties Union came to the rescue. Judge Clayton Horn
  ruled for "Howl" and the 1st Amendment. Suddenly the poem that began as a
  personal statement and an individual vision turned into a bestseller. It was
  translated into more than two dozen languages and read around the world as a
  cry against everything that wasn't cool.
  > >
  > > From the opening line - "I have seen the best minds of my generation
  destroyed by madness, starving / hysterical, naked" - to the last peaceful
  image of a "cottage in the western night," "Howl" inspired generations of
  artists, musicians and nonconformists, from Bob Dylan to Patti Smith, from
  hippies to punk rockers to today's rappers. The outlaw poem made it into the
  standard anthologies. And it helped liberate American literature from
  European traditions, making room for the  American vernacular, mythologizing
  American places and people.
  > >
  > >Ginsberg never wrote another poem as original as "Howl," but he still
  produced decades of memorable, often inspired, work. And he went on defying
  the established order - protesting against the Vietnam War, nuclear weapons,
  censorship and intolerance. And in the age of the Patriot Act, weapons of
  mass destruction and U.S. Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft, "Howl" is just as
  subversive, seductive and irreverent as ever. Were Ginsberg alive today - he
  died in 1997 at age 70 - he would demand an end to war and declare the
  imminent advent of paradise. He would make poetry matter again, as he did
  with "Howl"  half a
  century ago.

  > >
  > >Jonah Raskin's book "American Scream: Allen Ginsberg's Howl and the
  > Making
  > >of the Beat Generation" (University of California Press) will be
  > published
  > >in March.
  > >
  > >Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times
  >
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/ede1a230/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 21 18:05:50 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:05:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tim Love's site
Message-ID: <d7.3f81bbe.2d693e4e@aol.com>

Some of you have articles linked here...but others may be interested
in this rather eclectic site...
http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~tpl/texts/articles.html#me
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/98e995bf/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Feb 21 18:22:39 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:22:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Loss to Poetry: Fred Morgan
Message-ID: <126.3b347e6a.2d69423f@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/21/2004 11:48:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> >> Poetry has lost a great advocate and talent. Frederick Morgan, founder 
>> of
>> the Hudson Review and editor for over 50 years and a gifted poet, died 
>> today
>> of pneumonia. 
>> Fred was loved by all who knew him. He was the center of a community of
>> poets who honored his unwavering commitment to excellence. He believed in
>> creating opportunities for others.
>> It is a sad day for poetry and  for the many poets who were influenced by
>> Fred's deep love for our art.
>> C.
> No need to say more.  I'll just second this. 

What do you think will happen to the Hudson Review?
Was the man the magazine?
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/3b1c3c33/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Feb 21 18:33:16 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:33:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Frederick Morgan poem
In-Reply-To: <126.3b347e6a.2d69423f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC5D46DC.6E14%grahamd@ripon.edu>

February 11, 1977

          to my son John

You died nine years ago today.
I see you still sometimes in dreams
in white track-shirt and shorts, running,
against a drop of tropic green.
It seems to be a meadow, lying
open to early morning sun:
no other person is in view,
a quiet forest waits beyond.
Why do you hurry? What's the need?
Poor eager boy, why can't you see
once and for all you've lost this race
though you run for all eternity?
Your youngest brother's passed you by
at last: he's older now than you ?
and all our lives have ramified
in meanings which you never knew.
And yet, your eyes still burn with joy,
your body's splendor never fades ?
sometimes I seek to follow you
across the greenness, into the shade
of that great forest in whose depths
houses await and lives are lived,
where you haste in gleeful search of me
bearing a message I must have ?
but I, before I change, must bide
the "days of my appointed time,"
and so I age from self to self
while you await me, always young.

--Frederick Morgan


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/07a70bad/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Feb 21 19:35:33 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:35:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Loss to Poetry: Fred Morgan
Message-ID: <29.51bf955d.2d695355@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/21/2004 5:23:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> What do you think will happen to the Hudson Review?
> Was the man the magazine?
> Finnegan

It's been edited for a good while by Paula Deitz, so I hope it will continue.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/50f989f9/attachment.html>

From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Feb 20 15:13:12 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:13:12 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1F2@ariel.ripon.edu>


On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry 
 
The pretty, pampered poet in middle age 
is telling us we've lost our sense of smell. 
But my olfactory tube works rather well, 
reading his latest offerings on the page. 
 
 -- James Cummins
 
from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.


============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 21 21:20:02 2004
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:20:02 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
Message-ID: <200402220204.i1M24He2185694@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net>

you don't mean burton cummings?

----------
>From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
>To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
>Date: Fri, Feb 20, 2004, 12:13 PM
>

>
>
> On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry
>
> The pretty, pampered poet in middle age
> is telling us we've lost our sense of smell.
> But my olfactory tube works rather well,
> reading his latest offerings on the page.
>
>  -- James Cummins
>
> from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.
>
>
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Cadaly at aol.com  Sun Feb 22 00:40:46 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:40:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
Message-ID: <1cd.1a3dec23.2d699ade@aol.com>


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/b25d48f2/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Grisel <dsegotism at yahoo.com>
Subject: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press,etc.
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:08:33 -0800 (PST)
Size: 18937
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/b25d48f2/attachment.mht>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Feb 21 16:07:04 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:07:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog
References: <6f.421d36c8.2d68e5a9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <021801c3f8be$ab0ac3f0$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

I now have a short discussion of this poem at my blog.  It's in the entry for yesterday.  I compare it to a poem of mine and say why mine is better!

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html

I've been trying for two days to post this Important Information to New-Poetry and had my attempts blocked.  I remember others were having trouble, yes?  And I received no New-Poetry messages yesterday or the day before.  Anyway, here's another try to get through.

--Bob G.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040221/f749374d/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb 22 09:36:45 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:36:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gulls in the Wind/Sholl
References: <BC5D1396.6DEF%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <024e01c3f951$4d890b40$40efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> I find the poem pretty funny, and for me it balances nicely if
precariously
> on that cartoony edge of Disneyish personification--quite aware of its own
> extravagance, seems to me.  In any case, I posted it not to claim it as
> supplanting "Easter 1916" or as revolutionizing verse in our time (sorry,
> Bob, but I just can't take your bait).  Just a nifty descriptive poem.

Pretty much what I said.  I wasn't trying to start an argument--just
reacting, mainly because I'm still trying to clarify my view as to what
makes a poem effective.

> I brought it into a creative writing workshop last week, in fact, in order
> to talk about how jazzy language can enliven even the most ordinary of
> topics.

Good.  As long as you don't confuse anyone by trying to show how techniques
not in common use by 1950 can do the same thing better.  (That WAS an
attempt to bait you, just to keep in practice since I know you're
unbaitable.  And this post is mainly just an attempt to see if I can post to
New-Poetry, which I haven't been able to do for three days.)

--Bob G.




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sun Feb 22 11:36:15 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:36:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog
References: <6f.421d36c8.2d68e5a9@cs.com> <021801c3f8be$ab0ac3f0$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <000a01c3f961$fdf10180$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

That's the great thing about having your own blog.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Grumman 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 4:07 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog


  I now have a short discussion of this poem at my blog.  It's in the entry for yesterday.  I compare it to a poem of mine and say why mine is better!

  http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html

  I've been trying for two days to post this Important Information to New-Poetry and had my attempts blocked.  I remember others were having trouble, yes?  And I received no New-Poetry messages yesterday or the day before.  Anyway, here's another try to get through.

  --Bob G.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/4dd44387/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 22 12:06:48 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:06:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gerald Stern
Message-ID: <BC5E3DC7.6E55%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Born this day in 1925.  One of my favorite gasbags, now that Ginsberg and
Ammons have left us. . . .


----------------
Dear waves, what will you do for me this year?
Will you drown out my scream?
Will you let me rise through the fog?
Will you fill me with that old salt feeling?
Will you let me take my long steps in the cold sand?
Will you let me lie on the white bedspread and study
the black clouds with the blue holes in them?
Will you let me see the rusty trees and the old monoplanes one more year?
Will you still let me draw my sacred figures
and move the kites and the birds around with my dark mind?

Lucky life is like this. Lucky there is an ocean to come to.
Lucky you can judge yourself in this water.
Lucky you can be purified over and over again.
Lucky there is the same cleanliness for everyone.
Lucky life is like that. Lucky life. Oh lucky life.
Oh lucky lucky life. Lucky life.

--fr. "Lucky Life," 1977.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 22 12:12:01 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:12:01 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
Message-ID: <46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1@aol.com>

The Ballad of Rafe Nadir

Once there was a man of good standing, 
a Don Quixote to be counted on
in fights for justice and the earth.
But in time the limelight?s allure
seeped into his soul. And he 
became a na?ve Narcissus.

There are no independents, really,
there are only uncommitted centrists
ready to pushed this way & that 
by the bullies of the body politic. 
Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.
You must know what you loathe.

Now as a fringe candidate, he moves
across the tundra with the caribou herds,
and like a wolf he hunts at the edges
of their periodic migration, taking 
down only the weak and the sick, 
the injured and the young.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/fa19f52a/attachment.html>

From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Feb 22 12:23:07 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:23:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
References: <1cd.1a3dec23.2d699ade@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01c701c3f968$8a332af0$e9089942@Helen>

Just to say my censor reported a virus in the attachment and deleted it. 

xxx
H
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cadaly at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:40 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/2136abb0/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 22 12:46:12 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:46:12 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
References: <46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004701c3f96b$c3613350$2a607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

A well-depicted image of the few who could have been different among the many.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 6:12 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir


  The Ballad of Rafe Nadir

  Once there was a man of good standing, 
  a Don Quixote to be counted on
  in fights for justice and the earth.
  But in time the limelight?s allure
  seeped into his soul. And he 
  became a na?ve Narcissus.

  There are no independents, really,
  there are only uncommitted centrists
  ready to pushed this way & that 
  by the bullies of the body politic. 
  Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.
  You must know what you loathe.

  Now as a fringe candidate, he moves
  across the tundra with the caribou herds,
  and like a wolf he hunts at the edges
  of their periodic migration, taking 
  down only the weak and the sick, 
  the injured and the young. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/b9568946/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb 22 13:04:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:04:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Blog
References: <6f.421d36c8.2d68e5a9@cs.com> <021801c3f8be$ab0ac3f0$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000a01c3f961$fdf10180$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <040601c3f96e$58a7da20$40efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

>That's the great thing about having your own blog

Righto, Mole.  It's also one of the few good things about being old: the impossibility of gaining recognition finally becomes too obvious for one to continue being self-effacing in hopes of making friends.

--Bob G.
.

    I now have a short discussion of this poem at my blog.  It's in the entry for yesterday.  I compare it to a poem of mine and say why mine is better!

    http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html

    I've been trying for two days to post this Important Information to New-Poetry and had my attempts blocked.  I remember others were having trouble, yes?  And I received no New-Poetry messages yesterday or the day before.  Anyway, here's another try to get through.

    --Bob G.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/c43c83ff/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 22 14:25:22 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:25:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
Message-ID: <BC5E5E42.6E61%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A few somewhat lengthy provocations from Garrison Keillor's anthology, *Good
Poems*.  These are excerpts from his introductory essay.  Relevant to some
recent discussion hereabouts about narrative, innovation and such.
----------------------------------------------------


Oblivion is the writer's greatest fear, and as with the fear of death, one
finds evidence to support it. You fear that your work, the work of your
lifetime, on which you labored so unspeakably hard and for which you stood
on so many rocky shores and thought, My life has been wasted utterly--your
work will have its brief shining moment, the band plays, some confetti is
tossed, you are photographed with your family, drinks are served, people
squeeze your hand and say that you seem to have lost weight, and then the
work languishes in the bookstore and dies and is remaindered and finally
entombed on a shelf and--nobody ever looks at it again! Nobody! This happens
rather often, actually. . . .

    When the reader does not forget, when the reader has even committed the
poem to memory and can quote it years later, this is a triumph of large
proportions.

    What makes a poem memorable is its narrative line. A story is easier to
remember than a puzzle.  (And there are rules in storytelling that make for
a better poem: Stop Mumbling, No Prefaces, Cut to the Chase, Don't Sound
Like a Writer, Be Real.)

    Good poems tend to incorporate some story, some cadence or shadow of
story. There is a story in Dickinson's Success is counted sweetest by those
who ne'er succeed and Shakespeare's When in disgrace with fortune and men's
eyes and Wright's Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota/Twilight
bounds softly forth on the grass./And the eyes of those two Indian
ponies/Darken with kindness and Oliver's You do not have to be good./ You do
not have to walk on your knees/ For a hundred miles through the desert,
repenting. And Merwin's ''For the Anniversary of My Death" (Every year
without knowing it I have passed the day/When the last fires will wave to
me.) You could, without much trouble, commit these poems to memory and have
them by heart, like a cello in your head, a portable beauty to steady you
and ward off despair.

    Raymond Carver said, "Whether I am writing a poem or writing prose, I am
still trying to tell a story." Kenneth Rexroth called on poets to write
about "real things that happen to real people" and when a critic referred to
him as one of the bearshit-on-the-trail nature poets, Rexroth took it as an
honor. Dana Gioia said, "When poets stopped telling stories, they not only
lost a substantial portion of their audience; they also narrowed the
imaginative possibilities of their art. As long as there have been poets,
those poets told stories. Those stories were rarely about their own lives
but about imagined lives--drawn from myth, legend, history, or current
events.

    .  .  .  .

    Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I once
cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski said,
"There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to
understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple
way."  This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back when I
was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly layered,
unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his odes to
companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good humor,
e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his time
but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live with
any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their
prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? .  . .

    And then there is T. S Eliot, the great stuffed owl whose glassy eyes
mesmerized the English profs of my day.  Eliot was once a cultural icon, the
American guy so smooth he passed for British, and when he came to
Minneapolis on tour in the mid-fifties, he practically filled a basketball
arena; he was a bigger draw than Frost, Prufrock being required reading in
the eleventh grade, but you look at his work today and it seems rather
bloodless next  to, say, Rexroth's. Eliot didn't get out of the house much
while Rexroth was dancing all over town. Anybody who would rather read Ash
Wednesday than Rexroth's love poems must be on the take. And yet Rexroth was
never mentioned in the halls of the English Department when  I was there,
nor was Ferlinghetti, that great-hearted, God-gifted man. His City Lights
bookstore has always been a mecca in San Francisco. His friend Allen
Ginsberg, on the other hand, a good man, admirable in so many ways
(especially for Kaddish), was something of a gasbag, not big on rewriting,
and reading his Collected Poems is like hiking across North Dakota. I
stopped just beyond Fargo.

    .  .  .  .  .  .

    If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
example, which only means writers whose work might include references to
farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that dreary
term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the back
bedroom. .  .  .

. . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic of
letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay it's a
straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit and a
hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin, two
women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is a
small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take anywhere. You
could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention would
not drift.

    What makes Kumin and Sexton matter, and makes all good poems matter, is
that they offer a truer account than what we're used to getting. They
surprise us with clear pictures of the familiar. The soft arc of an
afternoon in a few lines. Poems that make us love this gaudy,
mother-scented, mud-bedaubed language of ours. A cunning low tongue,
English, with its rich vocabulary of slander and concupiscence and sport,
its fine Latin overlay and French bric-a-brac, and when someone speaks
poetry in it, it stirs our little monolingual hearts.

    The love of language is the love of truth, and this brings one into
conflict with authority, since power employs deceit and is so fond of
it--Rexroth said: "The accepted official version of anything is most likely
false ... all authority is based on fraud"--but the love of language is a
fundamental connection to our fellows and is a basis of true civility. . . .
.

 


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Feb 22 16:02:39 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:02:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
References: <BC5E5E42.6E61%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <04ce01c3f987$364d1b70$40efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

Well, Keillor HAS chosen to read a few Robert Lax poems on his show, so I
guess he can't be called a 100% philistine.

--Bob G.




> A few somewhat lengthy provocations from Garrison Keillor's anthology,
*Good
> Poems*.  These are excerpts from his introductory essay.  Relevant to some
> recent discussion hereabouts about narrative, innovation and such.
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Oblivion is the writer's greatest fear, and as with the fear of death, one
> finds evidence to support it. You fear that your work, the work of your
> lifetime, on which you labored so unspeakably hard and for which you stood
> on so many rocky shores and thought, My life has been wasted utterly--your
> work will have its brief shining moment, the band plays, some confetti is
> tossed, you are photographed with your family, drinks are served, people
> squeeze your hand and say that you seem to have lost weight, and then the
> work languishes in the bookstore and dies and is remaindered and finally
> entombed on a shelf and--nobody ever looks at it again! Nobody! This
happens
> rather often, actually. . . .
>
>     When the reader does not forget, when the reader has even committed
the
> poem to memory and can quote it years later, this is a triumph of large
> proportions.
>
>     What makes a poem memorable is its narrative line. A story is easier
to
> remember than a puzzle.  (And there are rules in storytelling that make
for
> a better poem: Stop Mumbling, No Prefaces, Cut to the Chase, Don't Sound
> Like a Writer, Be Real.)
>
>     Good poems tend to incorporate some story, some cadence or shadow of
> story. There is a story in Dickinson's Success is counted sweetest by
those
> who ne'er succeed and Shakespeare's When in disgrace with fortune and
men's
> eyes and Wright's Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota/Twilight
> bounds softly forth on the grass./And the eyes of those two Indian
> ponies/Darken with kindness and Oliver's You do not have to be good./ You
do
> not have to walk on your knees/ For a hundred miles through the desert,
> repenting. And Merwin's ''For the Anniversary of My Death" (Every year
> without knowing it I have passed the day/When the last fires will wave to
> me.) You could, without much trouble, commit these poems to memory and
have
> them by heart, like a cello in your head, a portable beauty to steady you
> and ward off despair.
>
>     Raymond Carver said, "Whether I am writing a poem or writing prose, I
am
> still trying to tell a story." Kenneth Rexroth called on poets to write
> about "real things that happen to real people" and when a critic referred
to
> him as one of the bearshit-on-the-trail nature poets, Rexroth took it as
an
> honor. Dana Gioia said, "When poets stopped telling stories, they not only
> lost a substantial portion of their audience; they also narrowed the
> imaginative possibilities of their art. As long as there have been poets,
> those poets told stories. Those stories were rarely about their own lives
> but about imagined lives--drawn from myth, legend, history, or current
> events.
>
>     .  .  .  .
>
>     Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I
once
> cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski
said,
> "There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to
> understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a
simple
> way."  This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back when
I
> was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly layered,
> unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his odes
to
> companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good humor,
> e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his
time
> but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live with
> any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their
> prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? .  . .
>
>     And then there is T. S Eliot, the great stuffed owl whose glassy eyes
> mesmerized the English profs of my day.  Eliot was once a cultural icon,
the
> American guy so smooth he passed for British, and when he came to
> Minneapolis on tour in the mid-fifties, he practically filled a basketball
> arena; he was a bigger draw than Frost, Prufrock being required reading in
> the eleventh grade, but you look at his work today and it seems rather
> bloodless next  to, say, Rexroth's. Eliot didn't get out of the house much
> while Rexroth was dancing all over town. Anybody who would rather read Ash
> Wednesday than Rexroth's love poems must be on the take. And yet Rexroth
was
> never mentioned in the halls of the English Department when  I was there,
> nor was Ferlinghetti, that great-hearted, God-gifted man. His City Lights
> bookstore has always been a mecca in San Francisco. His friend Allen
> Ginsberg, on the other hand, a good man, admirable in so many ways
> (especially for Kaddish), was something of a gasbag, not big on rewriting,
> and reading his Collected Poems is like hiking across North Dakota. I
> stopped just beyond Fargo.
>
>     .  .  .  .  .  .
>
>     If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
> example, which only means writers whose work might include references to
> farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that
dreary
> term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the back
> bedroom. .  .  .
>
> . . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic of
> letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay it's a
> straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit and
a
> hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin, two
> women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is a
> small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take anywhere.
You
> could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention
would
> not drift.
>
>     What makes Kumin and Sexton matter, and makes all good poems matter,
is
> that they offer a truer account than what we're used to getting. They
> surprise us with clear pictures of the familiar. The soft arc of an
> afternoon in a few lines. Poems that make us love this gaudy,
> mother-scented, mud-bedaubed language of ours. A cunning low tongue,
> English, with its rich vocabulary of slander and concupiscence and sport,
> its fine Latin overlay and French bric-a-brac, and when someone speaks
> poetry in it, it stirs our little monolingual hearts.
>
>     The love of language is the love of truth, and this brings one into
> conflict with authority, since power employs deceit and is so fond of
> it--Rexroth said: "The accepted official version of anything is most
likely
> false ... all authority is based on fraud"--but the love of language is a
> fundamental connection to our fellows and is a basis of true civility. . .
.
> .
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Sun Feb 22 16:38:32 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:38:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chris Lott
Message-ID: <003801c3f98c$387b2cc0$2a607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Sorry about this, I sometimes popped in:

http://www.chrislott.org/

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Is all that what we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?
Edgar Allan Poe
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/3c576a3f/attachment.html>

From cmurray at uta.edu  Sun Feb 22 17:05:51 2004
From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:05:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
Message-ID: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D2@exchange.uta.edu>

Hello, All-- 

I'm new to this list and happy to have found you all, some of whom I know
from other venues and lists (Hi Anny! Hi Mike!).  

I'm at University of Texas, Arlington, where I teach writing courses-- this
semester, a seminar in poetry writing (I also direct the Writing Center
here, am an editorial committee member for the lit journal, Znine, and I
organize our Spring poetry reading series, Poetry_Heat). 

& to David Graham, many thanks for the intriguing passages from Garrison
Keillor. I think my students will get a lot out of discussing these, since,
somewhat coincidentally (though it is an ongoing question for contemporary
poets, I think), this question of the place of narrative in their own poetry
writing has been a hot topic just recently in their workshopping for the
class.  

Best Wishes, 
Chris Murray 

http://www.uta.edu/english/znine 
http://poetry_heat.typepad.com 
http://texfiles.blogspot.com 



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Feb 22 18:02:06 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:02:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] WALLACE STEVENS CONFERENCE
Message-ID: <d8.40762ed.2d6a8eee@aol.com>

WALLACE STEVENS CONFERENCE
APRIL 8-10, 2004
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT

? ? ? ? ? The year 2004 marks the 125th anniversary of the birth of
Wallace Stevens, as well as the 50th anniversary of the publication
of his Collected Poems.? On April 8-10, 2004, The University of
Connecticut will host an international conference,
Celebrating Wallace Stevens:? The Poet of Poets in Connecticut.? Join
us in celebrating Stevens' life and poetry, examining his legacy and
influence, and exploring the future of Stevens studies.

Featured presenters include Ellen Bryant Voigt, Helen Vendler, and
Eugene Gaddis.? Other confirmed speakers include Massimo Bacigalupo,
Milton Bates, Charles Berger, Eleanor Cook, Bonnie Costello, Mark
Doty, Alan Filreis, Roger Gilbert, Susan Howe,
George Lensing, James Longenbach, J. D. McClatchy, John N. Serio,
Willard Spiegelman, and Lisa Steinman.

Registration is $125.00 or $50.00 for students (please include a copy
of a valid University ID).? The registration fee includes all
conference receptions and lunches, all sessions, panels and
roundtables, and special events in Hartford including a
Stevens Walking Tour and presentation at the Wadsworth Atheneum.
Also included in the fee is a commemorative broadside designed and
printed by Sutton Hoo Press.? The conference is open to the public,
but all attendees must register by March 15.
Please visit our web site for more information and for the registration form.

If you have any questions, please contact Rebecca Devers via any of the
means listed below.

Rebecca Devers

Celebrating Wallace Stevens:
The Poet of Poets in Connecticut
April 8-10, 2004

University of Connecticut
Department of English
215 Glenbrook Road, U-4025
Storrs, CT 06269-4025

www.humanities.uconn.edu/wallacestevens2004.htm

wallace-stevens2004 at uconn.edu
Phone:? 860-486-9105
Fax:? 860-486-1530

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/2f1c6e67/attachment.html>

From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Feb 22 20:31:23 2004
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:31:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
In-Reply-To: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D2@exchange.uta.edu>
Message-ID: <002d01c3f9ac$c607b1b0$99321c40@Emily>

Welcome, Chris!

I mostly lurk here, but pipe up once in awhile.  
I spend a lot of time deleting Bales v. Grumman posts, too.

Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Christine Murray
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 2:06 PM
To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems 

Hello, All-- 

I'm new to this list and happy to have found you all, some of whom I
know
from other venues and lists (Hi Anny! Hi Mike!).  

I'm at University of Texas, Arlington, where I teach writing courses--
this
semester, a seminar in poetry writing (I also direct the Writing Center
here, am an editorial committee member for the lit journal, Znine, and I
organize our Spring poetry reading series, Poetry_Heat). 

& to David Graham, many thanks for the intriguing passages from Garrison
Keillor. I think my students will get a lot out of discussing these,
since,
somewhat coincidentally (though it is an ongoing question for
contemporary
poets, I think), this question of the place of narrative in their own
poetry
writing has been a hot topic just recently in their workshopping for the
class.  

Best Wishes, 
Chris Murray 

http://www.uta.edu/english/znine 
http://poetry_heat.typepad.com 
http://texfiles.blogspot.com 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Feb 22 20:41:34 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:41:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems
In-Reply-To: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D2@exchange.uta.edu>
References: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D2@exchange.uta.edu>
Message-ID: <696D5BEC-65A1-11D8-BAE2-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Feb 22, 2004, at 5:05 PM, Christine Murray wrote:

> Hello, All--
>
> I'm new to this list and happy to have found you all, some of whom I 
> know
> from other venues and lists (Hi Anny! Hi Mike!).
>

Hi Chris!

Good to see you here.

Michael (who mostly lurks)



From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Feb 22 20:48:46 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:48:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnetarium
Message-ID: <6B3F0C7E-65A2-11D8-BAE2-000393C29586@mac.com>

Hiya folks,

On January 5th I roped myself into writing a sonnet a day until April 
Fools Day and posting the things at my Formal Blog and Sonnetarium. ( 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/  ). It didn't work out quite that 
way, but I did manage 28 sonnets and learned a lot before I gave it up 
today. I think a few of them are pretty good and most are salvageable. 
Until the end of March they're all available in one place at 
http://msnider.home.mindspring.com/New_Sonnetarium.htm .

Check them out if you have the time.

Michael



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Feb 22 21:30:52 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:30:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
In-Reply-To: <BC5E5E42.6E61%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <4CEBE375-65A8-11D8-BD92-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

David,
Hardly surprising that what Keillor wants from a poem is a good story.  
That's what he wants from everything.

But where on earth does this come from?

> . . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic 
> of
> letters, there are many more Moores than Millays.

What does he say about Miss Moore to make her anything but singular?

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu


I believe that if it were left to artists to choose their own labels, 
most would choose none.
Ben Shahn
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 550 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/a028b646/attachment.bin>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 22 21:47:37 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:47:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Good Poems
In-Reply-To: <4CEBE375-65A8-11D8-BD92-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BC5EC5E9.6E89%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Here's the entire paragraph from which I excerpted the Moore remarks. I cut
out the bit about women's lit because I thought there was probably enough
provocation in his other remarks.

In any case I believe Moore is being accused of dullness and pretention.
The opinions expressed are those of Garrison Keillor, I hasten to say.  I
don't necessarily endorse them, and have a longstanding fondness for Moore.

But I will say that my own taste has been evolving in recent years.  Where
once I preferred Moore to Bishop, it's now the reverse.

Like Keillor, too, I once looked down my nose at Raymond Carver's poetry,
but find as I grow older it grows better.  Rexroth's, too.



----------
If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
example, which only means writers whose work might include references to
farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that dreary
term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the back
bedroom. "Women's lit" strikes me as one of the great dumb ideas to come out
of my generation, right up there with multiculturalism. Elizabeth Bishop was
a woman, ditto Emily Dickinson, and she can take your head off with one
line, too, but if you marshal women writers under one tent, comparisons are
inevitable, and the occupants will not be content for long. When you compare
Bishop to, say, her friend and mentor Marianne Moore, the mentor pales
severely.  Marianne Moore was a dotty old aunt whose poems are quite
replicable for anyone with a thesaurus. A nice lady, but definitely a
plodder, and it would be cruel punishment to have to write a book about her.
Her contemporary, Edna St. Vincent Millay, who played the glamorous broad
and taxi dancer to Moore's, bunhead librarian, wrote more that is still of
interest, whereas Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the
republic of letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay
it's a straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit
and a hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin,
two women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is a
small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take anywhere. You
could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention would
not drift.
--Garrison Keillor
-----------

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


> From: Wendy Battin <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:30:52 -0600
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
> 
> David, 
> Hardly surprising that what Keillor wants from a poem is a good story.
> That's what he wants from everything.
> 
> But where on earth does this come from?
> 
> 
>> . . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic
>> of 
>> letters, there are many more Moores than Millays.
>> 
>> 
> What does he say about Miss Moore to make her anything but singular?
> 
> Wendy 
> 



From elemenope at icubed.com  Sun Feb 22 08:50:26 2004
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:50:26 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Grumman
In-Reply-To: <200402222104.i1ML46XE013087@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200402222104.i1ML46XE013087@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bc5e626faab8@[204.215.201.202]>

Bob Grumman:


You're not old.  Daffy, yes.  Old, no.  Old is when you can't duck.

You're recognized if compelled by revolting developments you need to

                          - - - - to duck.


Richard Dillon


At 04:04 PM -0500 2/22/04, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
>
>>That's the great thing about having your own blog
>
>Righto, Mole.  It's also one of the few good things about being old: the =
>impossibility of gaining recognition finally becomes too obvious for one =
>to continue being self-effacing in hopes of making friends.
>
>--Bob G.






>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
>	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Gerald Stern (David Graham)
>    2. The Ballad of Rafe Nadir (JforJames at aol.com)
>    3. Re: Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing 
>workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press... (Helen Ruggieri)
>    4. Re: The Ballad of Rafe Nadir (Anny Ballardini)
>    5. Re: My Blog (Bob Grumman)
>    6. Good Poems (David Graham)
>    7. Re: Good Poems (Bob Grumman)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:06:48 -0600
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Gerald Stern
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Born this day in 1925.  One of my favorite gasbags, now that Ginsberg and
>Ammons have left us. . . .
>
>
>----------------
>Dear waves, what will you do for me this year?
>Will you drown out my scream?
>Will you let me rise through the fog?
>Will you fill me with that old salt feeling?
>Will you let me take my long steps in the cold sand?
>Will you let me lie on the white bedspread and study
>the black clouds with the blue holes in them?
>Will you let me see the rusty trees and the old monoplanes one more year?
>Will you still let me draw my sacred figures
>and move the kites and the birds around with my dark mind?
>
>Lucky life is like this. Lucky there is an ocean to come to.
>Lucky you can judge yourself in this water.
>Lucky you can be purified over and over again.
>Lucky there is the same cleanliness for everyone.
>Lucky life is like that. Lucky life. Oh lucky life.
>Oh lucky lucky life. Lucky life.
>
>--fr. "Lucky Life," 1977.
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:12:01 EST
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>--part1_46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Language: en
>
>The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
>
>Once there was a man of good standing,=20
>a Don Quixote to be counted on
>in fights for justice and the earth.
>But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s allure
>seeped into his soul. And he=20
>became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.
>
>There are no independents, really,
>there are only uncommitted centrists
>ready to pushed this way & that=20
>by the bullies of the body politic.=20
>Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.
>You must know what you loathe.
>
>Now as a fringe candidate, he moves
>across the tundra with the caribou herds,
>and like a wolf he hunts at the edges
>of their periodic migration, taking=20
>down only the weak and the sick,=20
>the injured and the young.
>
>--part1_46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1_boundary
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Language: en
>
><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
>=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">The Ballad of Rafe Nadir<BR>
><BR>
>Once there was a man of good standing, <BR>
>a Don Quixote to be counted on<BR>
>in fights for justice and the earth.<BR>
>But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s allure<BR>
>seeped into his soul. And he <BR>
>became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.<BR>
><BR>
>There are no independents, really,<BR>
>there are only uncommitted centrists<BR>
>ready to pushed this way &amp; that <BR>
>by the bullies of the body politic. <BR>
>Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.<BR>
>You must know what you loathe.<BR>
><BR>
>Now as a fringe candidate, he moves<BR>
>across the tundra with the caribou herds,<BR>
>and like a wolf he hunts at the edges<BR>
>of their periodic migration, taking <BR>
>down only the weak and the sick, <BR>
>the injured and the young.</FONT></HTML>
>
>--part1_46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1_boundary--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing 
>workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:23:07 -0500
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C3F93E.A0DC5A30
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Just to say my censor reported a virus in the attachment and deleted it. =
>
>
>xxx
>H
>   ----- Original Message -----=20
>   From: Cadaly at aol.com=20
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
>   Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:40 AM
>   Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing =
>workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C3F93E.A0DC5A30
>Content-Type: text/html;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
>#ffffff"=20
>bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV>Just to say my censor reported a virus in the attachment and =
>deleted it.=20
></DIV>
><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV>xxx</DIV>
><DIV>H</DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>   <DIV=20
>   style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>black"><B>From:</B>=20
>   <A title=3DCadaly at aol.com =
>href=3D"mailto:Cadaly at aol.com">Cadaly at aol.com</A> </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
>   =
>href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu">new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu</A>=
>  </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2004 =
>12:40=20
>   AM</DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [New-Poetry] Fwd:=20
>   [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative=20
>   Press...</DIV>
>   <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C3F93E.A0DC5A30--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:46:12 +0100
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3F974.24D46E10
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="UTF-8"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>A well-depicted image of the few who could have been different among the =
>many.
>   ----- Original Message -----=20
>   From: JforJames at aol.com=20
>   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
>   Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 6:12 PM
>   Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
>
>
>   The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
>
>   Once there was a man of good standing,=20
>   a Don Quixote to be counted on
>   in fights for justice and the earth.
>   But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s allure
>   seeped into his soul. And he=20
>   became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.
>
>   There are no independents, really,
>   there are only uncommitted centrists
>   ready to pushed this way & that=20
>   by the bullies of the body politic.=20
>   Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.
>   You must know what you loathe.
>
>   Now as a fringe candidate, he moves
>   across the tundra with the caribou herds,
>   and like a wolf he hunts at the edges
>   of their periodic migration, taking=20
>   down only the weak and the sick,=20
>   the injured and the young.
>------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3F974.24D46E10
>Content-Type: text/html;
>	charset="UTF-8"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>=EF=BB=BF<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>A well-depicted image =
>of the few who=20
>could have been different among the many.</FONT></DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
>   <DIV=20
>   style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>black"><B>From:</B>=20
>   <A title=3DJforJames at aol.com=20
>   href=3D"mailto:JforJames at aol.com">JforJames at aol.com</A> </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
>title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
>   =
>href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu">new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu</A>=
>  </DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2004 =
>6:12=20
>   PM</DIV>
>   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [New-Poetry] The =
>Ballad of Rafe=20
>   Nadir</DIV>
>   <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
>face=3DArial size=3D2=20
>   FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10">The Ballad of Rafe =
>Nadir<BR><BR>Once there was=20
>   a man of good standing, <BR>a Don Quixote to be counted on<BR>in =
>fights for=20
>   justice and the earth.<BR>But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s =
>allure<BR>seeped into=20
>   his soul. And he <BR>became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.<BR><BR>There are =
>no=20
>   independents, really,<BR>there are only uncommitted centrists<BR>ready =
>to=20
>   pushed this way &amp; that <BR>by the bullies of the body politic. =
><BR>Pity,=20
>   he never read much Machiavelli.<BR>You must know what you =
>loathe.<BR><BR>Now=20
>   as a fringe candidate, he moves<BR>across the tundra with the caribou=20
>   herds,<BR>and like a wolf he hunts at the edges<BR>of their periodic=20
>   migration, taking <BR>down only the weak and the sick, <BR>the injured =
>and the=20
>   young.</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3F974.24D46E10--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Blog
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:04:39 -0500
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0402_01C3F944.6E3ED610
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>>That's the great thing about having your own blog
>
>Righto, Mole.  It's also one of the few good things about being old: the =
>impossibility of gaining recognition finally becomes too obvious for one =
>to continue being self-effacing in hopes of making friends.
>
>--Bob G.
>.
>
>     I now have a short discussion of this poem at my blog.  It's in the =
>entry for yesterday.  I compare it to a poem of mine and say why mine is =
>better!
>
>     http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html
>
>     I've been trying for two days to post this Important Information to =
>New-Poetry and had my attempts blocked.  I remember others were having =
>trouble, yes?  And I received no New-Poetry messages yesterday or the =
>day before.  Anyway, here's another try to get through.
>
>     --Bob G.
>
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0402_01C3F944.6E3ED610
>Content-Type: text/html;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;That's the great thing about having =
>your own=20
>blog</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Righto, Mole.&nbsp; It's also one of =
>the few good=20
>things about being old: the impossibility of gaining recognition finally =
>becomes=20
>too obvious for one to continue being self-effacing in hopes of making=20
>friends.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--Bob G.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT><BR></DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>   <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
>   style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
>     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
>     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
>size=3D3>I now have=20
>     a short discussion of this poem at my blog.&nbsp; It's in the entry =
>for=20
>     yesterday.&nbsp; I compare it to a poem of mine and say why mine is=20
>     better!<BR><BR></FONT><A=20
>     =
>href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html"><FONT =
>
>     face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
>     =
>size=3D3>http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html</FONT>=
></A><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
>     face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV>
>     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
>     <DIV>I've been trying for two days to post this Important =
>Information to=20
>     New-Poetry and had my attempts blocked.&nbsp; I remember others were =
>having=20
>     trouble, yes?&nbsp; And I received no New-Poetry messages yesterday =
>or the=20
>     day before.&nbsp; Anyway, here's another try to get through.</DIV>
>     <DIV><BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>--Bob=20
>     G.</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV>
>     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
>     <DIV><FONT=20
>face=3Darial,helvetica></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BOD=
>Y></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0402_01C3F944.6E3ED610--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:25:22 -0600
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>A few somewhat lengthy provocations from Garrison Keillor's anthology, *Good
>Poems*.  These are excerpts from his introductory essay.  Relevant to some
>recent discussion hereabouts about narrative, innovation and such.
>----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Oblivion is the writer's greatest fear, and as with the fear of death, one
>finds evidence to support it. You fear that your work, the work of your
>lifetime, on which you labored so unspeakably hard and for which you stood
>on so many rocky shores and thought, My life has been wasted utterly--your
>work will have its brief shining moment, the band plays, some confetti is
>tossed, you are photographed with your family, drinks are served, people
>squeeze your hand and say that you seem to have lost weight, and then the
>work languishes in the bookstore and dies and is remaindered and finally
>entombed on a shelf and--nobody ever looks at it again! Nobody! This happens
>rather often, actually. . . .
>
>     When the reader does not forget, when the reader has even committed the
>poem to memory and can quote it years later, this is a triumph of large
>proportions.
>
>     What makes a poem memorable is its narrative line. A story is easier to
>remember than a puzzle.  (And there are rules in storytelling that make for
>a better poem: Stop Mumbling, No Prefaces, Cut to the Chase, Don't Sound
>Like a Writer, Be Real.)
>
>     Good poems tend to incorporate some story, some cadence or shadow of
>story. There is a story in Dickinson's Success is counted sweetest by those
>who ne'er succeed and Shakespeare's When in disgrace with fortune and men's
>eyes and Wright's Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota/Twilight
>bounds softly forth on the grass./And the eyes of those two Indian
>ponies/Darken with kindness and Oliver's You do not have to be good./ You do
>not have to walk on your knees/ For a hundred miles through the desert,
>repenting. And Merwin's ''For the Anniversary of My Death" (Every year
>without knowing it I have passed the day/When the last fires will wave to
>me.) You could, without much trouble, commit these poems to memory and have
>them by heart, like a cello in your head, a portable beauty to steady you
>and ward off despair.
>
>     Raymond Carver said, "Whether I am writing a poem or writing prose, I am
>still trying to tell a story." Kenneth Rexroth called on poets to write
>about "real things that happen to real people" and when a critic referred to
>him as one of the bearshit-on-the-trail nature poets, Rexroth took it as an
>honor. Dana Gioia said, "When poets stopped telling stories, they not only
>lost a substantial portion of their audience; they also narrowed the
>imaginative possibilities of their art. As long as there have been poets,
>those poets told stories. Those stories were rarely about their own lives
>but about imagined lives--drawn from myth, legend, history, or current
>events.
>
>     .  .  .  .
>
>     Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I once
>cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski said,
>"There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to
>understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple
>way."  This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back when I
>was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly layered,
>unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his odes to
>companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good humor,
>e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his time
>but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live with
>any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their
>prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? .  . .
>
>     And then there is T. S Eliot, the great stuffed owl whose glassy eyes
>mesmerized the English profs of my day.  Eliot was once a cultural icon, the
>American guy so smooth he passed for British, and when he came to
>Minneapolis on tour in the mid-fifties, he practically filled a basketball
>arena; he was a bigger draw than Frost, Prufrock being required reading in
>the eleventh grade, but you look at his work today and it seems rather
>bloodless next  to, say, Rexroth's. Eliot didn't get out of the house much
>while Rexroth was dancing all over town. Anybody who would rather read Ash
>Wednesday than Rexroth's love poems must be on the take. And yet Rexroth was
>never mentioned in the halls of the English Department when  I was there,
>nor was Ferlinghetti, that great-hearted, God-gifted man. His City Lights
>bookstore has always been a mecca in San Francisco. His friend Allen
>Ginsberg, on the other hand, a good man, admirable in so many ways
>(especially for Kaddish), was something of a gasbag, not big on rewriting,
>and reading his Collected Poems is like hiking across North Dakota. I
>stopped just beyond Fargo.
>
>     .  .  .  .  .  .
>
>     If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
>example, which only means writers whose work might include references to
>farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that dreary
>term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the back
>bedroom. .  .  .
>
>. . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic of
>letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay it's a
>straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit and a
>hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin, two
>women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is a
>small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take anywhere. You
>could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention would
>not drift.
>
>     What makes Kumin and Sexton matter, and makes all good poems matter, is
>that they offer a truer account than what we're used to getting. They
>surprise us with clear pictures of the familiar. The soft arc of an
>afternoon in a few lines. Poems that make us love this gaudy,
>mother-scented, mud-bedaubed language of ours. A cunning low tongue,
>English, with its rich vocabulary of slander and concupiscence and sport,
>its fine Latin overlay and French bric-a-brac, and when someone speaks
>poetry in it, it stirs our little monolingual hearts.
>
>     The love of language is the love of truth, and this brings one into
>conflict with authority, since power employs deceit and is so fond of
>it--Rexroth said: "The accepted official version of anything is most likely
>false ... all authority is based on fraud"--but the love of language is a
>fundamental connection to our fellows and is a basis of true civility. . . .
>.
>
>
>
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:02:39 -0500
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Well, Keillor HAS chosen to read a few Robert Lax poems on his show, so I
>guess he can't be called a 100% philistine.
>
>--Bob G.
>
>
>
>
>>  A few somewhat lengthy provocations from Garrison Keillor's anthology,
>*Good
>>  Poems*.  These are excerpts from his introductory essay.  Relevant to some
>>  recent discussion hereabouts about narrative, innovation and such.
>>  ----------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>  Oblivion is the writer's greatest fear, and as with the fear of death, one
>>  finds evidence to support it. You fear that your work, the work of your
>>  lifetime, on which you labored so unspeakably hard and for which you stood
>>  on so many rocky shores and thought, My life has been wasted utterly--your
>>  work will have its brief shining moment, the band plays, some confetti is
>>  tossed, you are photographed with your family, drinks are served, people
>>  squeeze your hand and say that you seem to have lost weight, and then the
>>  work languishes in the bookstore and dies and is remaindered and finally
>>  entombed on a shelf and--nobody ever looks at it again! Nobody! This
>happens
>>  rather often, actually. . . .
>>
>>      When the reader does not forget, when the reader has even committed
>the
>>  poem to memory and can quote it years later, this is a triumph of large
>>  proportions.
>>
>>      What makes a poem memorable is its narrative line. A story is easier
>to
>>  remember than a puzzle.  (And there are rules in storytelling that make
>for
>>  a better poem: Stop Mumbling, No Prefaces, Cut to the Chase, Don't Sound
>>  Like a Writer, Be Real.)
>>
>>      Good poems tend to incorporate some story, some cadence or shadow of
>>  story. There is a story in Dickinson's Success is counted sweetest by
>those
>>  who ne'er succeed and Shakespeare's When in disgrace with fortune and
>men's
>>  eyes and Wright's Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota/Twilight
>>  bounds softly forth on the grass./And the eyes of those two Indian
>>  ponies/Darken with kindness and Oliver's You do not have to be good./ You
>do
>>  not have to walk on your knees/ For a hundred miles through the desert,
>>  repenting. And Merwin's ''For the Anniversary of My Death" (Every year
>>  without knowing it I have passed the day/When the last fires will wave to
>>  me.) You could, without much trouble, commit these poems to memory and
>have
>>  them by heart, like a cello in your head, a portable beauty to steady you
>>  and ward off despair.
>>
>>      Raymond Carver said, "Whether I am writing a poem or writing prose, I
>am
>>  still trying to tell a story." Kenneth Rexroth called on poets to write
>>  about "real things that happen to real people" and when a critic referred
>to
>>  him as one of the bearshit-on-the-trail nature poets, Rexroth took it as
>an
>>  honor. Dana Gioia said, "When poets stopped telling stories, they not only
>>  lost a substantial portion of their audience; they also narrowed the
>>  imaginative possibilities of their art. As long as there have been poets,
>>  those poets told stories. Those stories were rarely about their own lives
>>  but about imagined lives--drawn from myth, legend, history, or current
>>  events.
>>
>>      .  .  .  .
>>
>>      Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I
>once
>>  cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski
>said,
>>  "There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to
>>  understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a
>simple
>>  way."  This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back when
>I
>>  was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly layered,
>>  unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his odes
>to
>>  companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good humor,
>>  e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his
>time
>>  but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live with
>>  any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their
>>  prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? .  . .
>>
>>      And then there is T. S Eliot, the great stuffed owl whose glassy eyes
>>  mesmerized the English profs of my day.  Eliot was once a cultural icon,
>the
>>  American guy so smooth he passed for British, and when he came to
>>  Minneapolis on tour in the mid-fifties, he practically filled a basketball
>>  arena; he was a bigger draw than Frost, Prufrock being required reading in
>>  the eleventh grade, but you look at his work today and it seems rather
>>  bloodless next  to, say, Rexroth's. Eliot didn't get out of the house much
>>  while Rexroth was dancing all over town. Anybody who would rather read Ash
>>  Wednesday than Rexroth's love poems must be on the take. And yet Rexroth
>was
>>  never mentioned in the halls of the English Department when  I was there,
>>  nor was Ferlinghetti, that great-hearted, God-gifted man. His City Lights
>>  bookstore has always been a mecca in San Francisco. His friend Allen
>>  Ginsberg, on the other hand, a good man, admirable in so many ways
>>  (especially for Kaddish), was something of a gasbag, not big on rewriting,
>>  and reading his Collected Poems is like hiking across North Dakota. I
>>  stopped just beyond Fargo.
>>
>>      .  .  .  .  .  .
>>
>>      If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
>>  example, which only means writers whose work might include references to
>>  farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that
>dreary
>>  term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the back
>>  bedroom. .  .  .
>>
>>  . . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic of
>>  letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay it's a
>>  straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit and
>a
>>  hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin, two
>>  women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is a
>>  small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take anywhere.
>You
>>  could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention
>would
>>  not drift.
>>
>>      What makes Kumin and Sexton matter, and makes all good poems matter,
>is
>>  that they offer a truer account than what we're used to getting. They
>>  surprise us with clear pictures of the familiar. The soft arc of an
>>  afternoon in a few lines. Poems that make us love this gaudy,
>>  mother-scented, mud-bedaubed language of ours. A cunning low tongue,
>>  English, with its rich vocabulary of slander and concupiscence and sport,
>>  its fine Latin overlay and French bric-a-brac, and when someone speaks
>>  poetry in it, it stirs our little monolingual hearts.
>  >
>>      The love of language is the love of truth, and this brings one into
>>  conflict with authority, since power employs deceit and is so fond of
>>  it--Rexroth said: "The accepted official version of anything is most
>likely
>>  false ... all authority is based on fraud"--but the love of language is a
>>  fundamental connection to our fellows and is a basis of true civility. . .
>.
>>  .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ====================================================
>>  David Graham
>>  grahamd at ripon.edu
>>  Home Page:
>>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>  Poetry Library:
>>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>  ====================================================
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest


-- 


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Mon Feb 23 01:01:09 2004
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:01:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Homage to Ms. Moore
In-Reply-To: <200402230249.i1N2n2XE015297@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040222220000.00b94230@incoming.verizon.net>

         Nevertheless

you've seen a strawberry
that's had a struggle; yet
was,where the fragments met,

a hedgehog or a star-
fish for the multitude
of seeds. What better food

than apple seeds -- the fruit
within the fruit -- locked in
like counter-curved twin

hazelnuts? Frost that kills
the little rubber-plant-
leaves of kok-sagyyz-stalks,can't

harm the roots; they still grow
in frozen ground. Once where
there was a prickley-pear-

leaf clinging to a barbed wire,
a root shot down to grow
in earth two feet below;

as carrots from mandrakes
or a ram's-horn root some-
times. Victory won't come

to me unless I go
to it; a grape tendril
ties a knot in knots till

knotted thirty times -- so
the bound twig that's under-
gone and over-gone, can't stir.

The weak overcomes its
menace, the strong over-
comes itself. What is there

like fortitude! What sap
went through that little thread
to make the cherry red!
--Marianne Moore

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040222/165b9f01/attachment.html>

From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 23 06:48:37 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:48:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
References: <002d01c3f9ac$c607b1b0$99321c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <01a501c3fa02$fad5f3b0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> I spend a lot of time deleting Bales v. Grumman posts, too.
>
> Tony

You certainly do nothing of greater importance here, Tony.  Keep up the good
work.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 23 06:57:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 06:57:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
References: <4CEBE375-65A8-11D8-BD92-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <01bb01c3fa04$27e52e10$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>





  David,
  Hardly surprising that what Keillor wants from a poem is a good story. That's what he wants from everything.

  But where on earth does this come from?


    . . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic of
    letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. 


  What does he say about Miss Moore to make her anything but singular?

  Wendy

  I suspect he considers her, like so many other poets and would-be poets, to be a mere free-verse doodler.


  I believe that if it were left to artists to choose their own labels, most would choose none.
  Ben Shahn

  I believe most artists terrifically like the idea of being considered wonderfully unique and undefinable.
    
                                                       Bob Grumman
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040223/c6e78dd7/attachment.html>

From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Feb 23 07:37:42 2004
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:37:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c3fa09$d903a410$6401a8c0@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

RECENT TOPICS:

Kathleen Fraser
Discrete Categories Forced into Coupling

Joltin' Joe Ceravolo -
Reinventing the NY School & surrealism
& making it look easy

John High's "Here" -
Giving voice, avoid false closure

Kathleen Fraser:
Creating communities in writing

Piseogs -
Casting spells with Pattie McCarthy

Pattie McCarthy's Verso -
Pagination & interpretation

The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Alice Jones' Gorgeous Mourning:
Transcending the roots of tradition

The Saragossa Manuscript -
Let me tell you a story

Charles Bernstein's World on Fire:
This time it's personal

Pound was the beginning:
A personal history of book buying

Unpacking my library:
Poets acquiring books

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb 23 08:01:06 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:01:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
In-Reply-To: <01c701c3f968$8a332af0$e9089942@Helen>
Message-ID: <4039B342.11390.336D60@localhost>

On 22 Feb 2004 at 12:23, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> Just to say my censor reported a virus in the attachment and deleted
> it. 

This Is Just To Say 

My censor reported
a virus
that was in
the attachment

with which 
you were probably 
hoping
to trick me

Forgive me 
I deleted it
but this
is getting old





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Feb 23 09:17:09 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:17:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
In-Reply-To: <01a501c3fa02$fad5f3b0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <4039C515.5193.790DA3@localhost>

> > I spend a lot of time deleting Bales v. Grumman posts, too.
> > Tony
> 
> You certainly do nothing of greater importance here, Tony.  Keep up
> the good work.
> --Bob G.

What a convenient example of the kind of kind of ad hominem attack 
that is the reason to engage Grumman so he can show, over and over, 
the uncivil tone and manner of his participation here!  





From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon Feb 23 09:45:32 2004
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:45:32 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
References: <4039C515.5193.790DA3@localhost>
Message-ID: <036a01c3fa1b$b07674c0$bba88051@MyPC>

Bob, Marcus --

Couldn't you two shift this backchannel, then nobody would have to bother
deleting?

... especially as way back when, one or the other of you insisted that this
was a private argument that nobody else was supposed to get involved in?

Tedious but not brief ....

Robin Starveling

> > > I spend a lot of time deleting Bales v. Grumman posts, too.
> > > Tony
> >
> > You certainly do nothing of greater importance here, Tony.  Keep up
> > the good work.
> > --Bob G.
>
> What a convenient example of the kind of kind of ad hominem attack
> that is the reason to engage Grumman so he can show, over and over,
> the uncivil tone and manner of his participation here!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Mon Feb 23 10:46:30 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:46:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
In-Reply-To: <01bb01c3fa04$27e52e10$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>
Message-ID: <72FEF8B6-6617-11D8-BE83-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Monday, February 23, 2004, at 06:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I suspect he considers her, like so many other poets and would-be 
> poets, to be a mere free-verse doodler.

She rarely, if ever, wrote free verse.

Wendy



Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
       --Shunryu Suzuki
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 394 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040223/1e900dfd/attachment.bin>

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon Feb 23 12:05:22 2004
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:05:22 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
References: <72FEF8B6-6617-11D8-BE83-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <039301c3fa2f$39d9fc60$bba88051@MyPC>

Marianne Moore, "Poetry"

<<
She rarely, if ever, wrote free verse.

Wendy
>>

What she did do was write an eleven-syllable line which cracked the
pentameter.

And Wendy's right, she didn't write "free verse" (whatever that is) but
syllabics.

Also translated La Fontaine's Aesop.

Robin

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Don't walk so fast. The rain is everywhere.
--Shunryu Suzuki




From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Feb 23 12:13:14 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:13:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
References: <4039B342.11390.336D60@localhost>
Message-ID: <012b01c3fa30$531057a0$e6099942@Helen>

I gave it
to an old man
who needed
a drink
he smelled so
plumy and nice.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing
workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...


> On 22 Feb 2004 at 12:23, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > Just to say my censor reported a virus in the attachment and deleted
> > it.
>
> This Is Just To Say
>
> My censor reported
> a virus
> that was in
> the attachment
>
> with which
> you were probably
> hoping
> to trick me
>
> Forgive me
> I deleted it
> but this
> is getting old
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Feb 23 11:50:15 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:50:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Frederick Morgan poem
In-Reply-To: <BC5D46DC.6E14%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BC5F8B67.6153%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/21/04 5:33 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote:

> February 11, 1977
> 
>           to my son John
> 
> You died nine years ago today.
> I see you still sometimes in dreams
> in white track-shirt and shorts, running,
> against a drop of tropic green.
> It seems to be a meadow, lying
> open to early morning sun:
> no other person is in view,
> a quiet forest waits beyond.
> Why do you hurry? What's the need?
> Poor eager boy, why can't you see
> once and for all you've lost this race
> though you run for all eternity?
> Your youngest brother's passed you by
> at last: he's older now than you ?
> and all our lives have ramified
> in meanings which you never knew.
> And yet, your eyes still burn with joy,
> your body's splendor never fades ?
> sometimes I seek to follow you
> across the greenness, into the shade
> of that great forest in whose depths
> houses await and lives are lived,
> where you haste in gleeful search of me
> bearing a message I must have ?
> but I, before I change, must bide
> the "days of my appointed time,"
> and so I age from self to self
> while you await me, always young.
> 
> --Frederick Morgan
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 

Thanks for posting this, David. It?s moving. More so since I have a son who
runs track.

Paul 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040223/98ecf457/attachment.html>

From hruggier at localnet.com  Mon Feb 23 13:48:18 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:48:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
References: <BC5E5E42.6E61%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <010901c3fa3d$9b3867e0$ca0d9942@Helen>

Well, I'd stick up for him but he didn't use any of my poems in his stinkin'
book so let him stick up for himself
(and that's another story).


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 2:25 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems


> A few somewhat lengthy provocations from Garrison Keillor's anthology,
*Good
> Poems*.  These are excerpts from his introductory essay.  Relevant to some
> recent discussion hereabouts about narrative, innovation and such.
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Oblivion is the writer's greatest fear, and as with the fear of death, one
> finds evidence to support it. You fear that your work, the work of your
> lifetime, on which you labored so unspeakably hard and for which you stood
> on so many rocky shores and thought, My life has been wasted utterly--your
> work will have its brief shining moment, the band plays, some confetti is
> tossed, you are photographed with your family, drinks are served, people
> squeeze your hand and say that you seem to have lost weight, and then the
> work languishes in the bookstore and dies and is remaindered and finally
> entombed on a shelf and--nobody ever looks at it again! Nobody! This
happens
> rather often, actually. . . .
>
>     When the reader does not forget, when the reader has even committed
the
> poem to memory and can quote it years later, this is a triumph of large
> proportions.
>
>     What makes a poem memorable is its narrative line. A story is easier
to
> remember than a puzzle.  (And there are rules in storytelling that make
for
> a better poem: Stop Mumbling, No Prefaces, Cut to the Chase, Don't Sound
> Like a Writer, Be Real.)
>
>     Good poems tend to incorporate some story, some cadence or shadow of
> story. There is a story in Dickinson's Success is counted sweetest by
those
> who ne'er succeed and Shakespeare's When in disgrace with fortune and
men's
> eyes and Wright's Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota/Twilight
> bounds softly forth on the grass./And the eyes of those two Indian
> ponies/Darken with kindness and Oliver's You do not have to be good./ You
do
> not have to walk on your knees/ For a hundred miles through the desert,
> repenting. And Merwin's ''For the Anniversary of My Death" (Every year
> without knowing it I have passed the day/When the last fires will wave to
> me.) You could, without much trouble, commit these poems to memory and
have
> them by heart, like a cello in your head, a portable beauty to steady you
> and ward off despair.
>
>     Raymond Carver said, "Whether I am writing a poem or writing prose, I
am
> still trying to tell a story." Kenneth Rexroth called on poets to write
> about "real things that happen to real people" and when a critic referred
to
> him as one of the bearshit-on-the-trail nature poets, Rexroth took it as
an
> honor. Dana Gioia said, "When poets stopped telling stories, they not only
> lost a substantial portion of their audience; they also narrowed the
> imaginative possibilities of their art. As long as there have been poets,
> those poets told stories. Those stories were rarely about their own lives
> but about imagined lives--drawn from myth, legend, history, or current
> events.
>
>     .  .  .  .
>
>     Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I
once
> cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski
said,
> "There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to
> understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a
simple
> way."  This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back when
I
> was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly layered,
> unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his odes
to
> companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good humor,
> e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his
time
> but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live with
> any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their
> prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? .  . .
>
>     And then there is T. S Eliot, the great stuffed owl whose glassy eyes
> mesmerized the English profs of my day.  Eliot was once a cultural icon,
the
> American guy so smooth he passed for British, and when he came to
> Minneapolis on tour in the mid-fifties, he practically filled a basketball
> arena; he was a bigger draw than Frost, Prufrock being required reading in
> the eleventh grade, but you look at his work today and it seems rather
> bloodless next  to, say, Rexroth's. Eliot didn't get out of the house much
> while Rexroth was dancing all over town. Anybody who would rather read Ash
> Wednesday than Rexroth's love poems must be on the take. And yet Rexroth
was
> never mentioned in the halls of the English Department when  I was there,
> nor was Ferlinghetti, that great-hearted, God-gifted man. His City Lights
> bookstore has always been a mecca in San Francisco. His friend Allen
> Ginsberg, on the other hand, a good man, admirable in so many ways
> (especially for Kaddish), was something of a gasbag, not big on rewriting,
> and reading his Collected Poems is like hiking across North Dakota. I
> stopped just beyond Fargo.
>
>     .  .  .  .  .  .
>
>     If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
> example, which only means writers whose work might include references to
> farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that
dreary
> term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the back
> bedroom. .  .  .
>
> . . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic of
> letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay it's a
> straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit and
a
> hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin, two
> women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is a
> small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take anywhere.
You
> could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention
would
> not drift.
>
>     What makes Kumin and Sexton matter, and makes all good poems matter,
is
> that they offer a truer account than what we're used to getting. They
> surprise us with clear pictures of the familiar. The soft arc of an
> afternoon in a few lines. Poems that make us love this gaudy,
> mother-scented, mud-bedaubed language of ours. A cunning low tongue,
> English, with its rich vocabulary of slander and concupiscence and sport,
> its fine Latin overlay and French bric-a-brac, and when someone speaks
> poetry in it, it stirs our little monolingual hearts.
>
>     The love of language is the love of truth, and this brings one into
> conflict with authority, since power employs deceit and is so fond of
> it--Rexroth said: "The accepted official version of anything is most
likely
> false ... all authority is based on fraud"--but the love of language is a
> fundamental connection to our fellows and is a basis of true civility. . .
.
> .
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>




From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Feb 23 14:00:57 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:00:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers & Teachers Series Expands to Glendale
Message-ID: <154.2e75509f.2d6ba7e9@aol.com>

Monthly Writers & Teachers Series 

Catherine Daly, published by Salt, with a book forthcoming from Tupelo, 
teacher at West Los Angeles College, will be reading with and introducing three of 
her students in this *all new expansion of the Writers & Teachers Series.*

The students:  Margaret Wang, graduate of Cardiff U's MA program in creative 
writing, J. Ana Flores, pinoy poet extraordinaire, and Siel Ju, current PhD 
student in Creative Writing at USC.  

7:30
Tuesday, February 24
Barnes & Noble Glendale
245 N. Glendale Blvd.
Glendale, CA 91206

free snacks / parking

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net

Author, DaDaDa (Salt Publishing, 2003)
ISBN:  1876857951

apologies for those who are receiving this posting in error; please e-mail me 
as I continue to update my lists
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040223/4c261eb6/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 23 14:54:00 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:54:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
References: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D2@exchange.uta.edu>
Message-ID: <007f01c3fa46$c86d0af0$e2607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Welcome abroad New Poetry Chris, I think we all need some of your most
enthusiastic spirit,

till the next one, cheers
Anny

From: "Christine Murray" <cmurray at uta.edu>


> Hello, All-- 
>
> I'm new to this list and happy to have found you all, some of whom I know
> from other venues and lists (Hi Anny! Hi Mike!).
>
> I'm at University of Texas, Arlington, where I teach writing courses-- 
this
> semester, a seminar in poetry writing (I also direct the Writing Center
> here, am an editorial committee member for the lit journal, Znine, and I
> organize our Spring poetry reading series, Poetry_Heat).
>
> & to David Graham, many thanks for the intriguing passages from Garrison
> Keillor. I think my students will get a lot out of discussing these,
since,
> somewhat coincidentally (though it is an ongoing question for contemporary
> poets, I think), this question of the place of narrative in their own
poetry
> writing has been a hot topic just recently in their workshopping for the
> class.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Chris Murray
>
> http://www.uta.edu/english/znine
> http://poetry_heat.typepad.com
> http://texfiles.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 23 15:09:02 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:09:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Grumman
References: <200402222104.i1ML46XE013087@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bc5e626faab8@[204.215.201.202]>
Message-ID: <015f01c3fa49$70a51710$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>


> Bob Grumman:
>
>
> You're not old.  Daffy, yes.  Old, no.  Old is when you can't duck.
>
> You're recognized if compelled by revolting developments you need to
>
>                           - - - - to duck.

Ah, but I'm still too young to be able to exercise the self-control to!

--Bob G.

> Richard Dillon
>
>
> At 04:04 PM -0500 2/22/04, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
> >
> >>That's the great thing about having your own blog
> >
> >Righto, Mole.  It's also one of the few good things about being old: the
=
> >impossibility of gaining recognition finally becomes too obvious for one
=
> >to continue being self-effacing in hopes of making friends.
> >
> >--Bob G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >You can reach the person managing the list at
> > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> >
> >
> >Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Gerald Stern (David Graham)
> >    2. The Ballad of Rafe Nadir (JforJames at aol.com)
> >    3. Re: Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing
> >workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press... (Helen Ruggieri)
> >    4. Re: The Ballad of Rafe Nadir (Anny Ballardini)
> >    5. Re: My Blog (Bob Grumman)
> >    6. Good Poems (David Graham)
> >    7. Re: Good Poems (Bob Grumman)
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >Message: 1
> >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:06:48 -0600
> >From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Gerald Stern
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >Born this day in 1925.  One of my favorite gasbags, now that Ginsberg and
> >Ammons have left us. . . .
> >
> >
> >----------------
> >Dear waves, what will you do for me this year?
> >Will you drown out my scream?
> >Will you let me rise through the fog?
> >Will you fill me with that old salt feeling?
> >Will you let me take my long steps in the cold sand?
> >Will you let me lie on the white bedspread and study
> >the black clouds with the blue holes in them?
> >Will you let me see the rusty trees and the old monoplanes one more year?
> >Will you still let me draw my sacred figures
> >and move the kites and the birds around with my dark mind?
> >
> >Lucky life is like this. Lucky there is an ocean to come to.
> >Lucky you can judge yourself in this water.
> >Lucky you can be purified over and over again.
> >Lucky there is the same cleanliness for everyone.
> >Lucky life is like that. Lucky life. Oh lucky life.
> >Oh lucky lucky life. Lucky life.
> >
> >--fr. "Lucky Life," 1977.
> >
> >====================================================
> >David Graham
> >grahamd at ripon.edu
> >Home Page:
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >Poetry Library:
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >====================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >Message: 2
> >From: JforJames at aol.com
> >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:12:01 EST
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >
> >--part1_46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1_boundary
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >Content-Language: en
> >
> >The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
> >
> >Once there was a man of good standing,=20
> >a Don Quixote to be counted on
> >in fights for justice and the earth.
> >But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s allure
> >seeped into his soul. And he=20
> >became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.
> >
> >There are no independents, really,
> >there are only uncommitted centrists
> >ready to pushed this way & that=20
> >by the bullies of the body politic.=20
> >Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.
> >You must know what you loathe.
> >
> >Now as a fringe candidate, he moves
> >across the tundra with the caribou herds,
> >and like a wolf he hunts at the edges
> >of their periodic migration, taking=20
> >down only the weak and the sick,=20
> >the injured and the young.
> >
> >--part1_46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1_boundary
> >Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >Content-Language: en
> >
> ><HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10
FAMILY=
> >=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">The Ballad of Rafe Nadir<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Once there was a man of good standing, <BR>
> >a Don Quixote to be counted on<BR>
> >in fights for justice and the earth.<BR>
> >But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s allure<BR>
> >seeped into his soul. And he <BR>
> >became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >There are no independents, really,<BR>
> >there are only uncommitted centrists<BR>
> >ready to pushed this way &amp; that <BR>
> >by the bullies of the body politic. <BR>
> >Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.<BR>
> >You must know what you loathe.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Now as a fringe candidate, he moves<BR>
> >across the tundra with the caribou herds,<BR>
> >and like a wolf he hunts at the edges<BR>
> >of their periodic migration, taking <BR>
> >down only the weak and the sick, <BR>
> >the injured and the young.</FONT></HTML>
> >
> >--part1_46.47813c26.2d6a3ce1_boundary--
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >Message: 3
> >From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing
> >workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
> >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:23:07 -0500
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C3F93E.A0DC5A30
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> >Just to say my censor reported a virus in the attachment and deleted it.
=
> >
> >
> >xxx
> >H
> >   ----- Original Message -----=20
> >   From: Cadaly at aol.com=20
> >   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
> >   Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:40 AM
> >   Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing =
> >workshop,Brooklyn Alternative Press...
> >
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C3F93E.A0DC5A30
> >Content-Type: text/html;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> ><HTML><HEAD>
> ><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
> >charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> ><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
> ><STYLE></STYLE>
> ></HEAD>
> ><BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
> >#ffffff"=20
> >bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> ><DIV>Just to say my censor reported a virus in the attachment and =
> >deleted it.=20
> ></DIV>
> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
> ><DIV>xxx</DIV>
> ><DIV>H</DIV>
> ><BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> >style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> >   <DIV=20
> >   style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> >black"><B>From:</B>=20
> >   <A title=3DCadaly at aol.com =
> >href=3D"mailto:Cadaly at aol.com">Cadaly at aol.com</A> </DIV>
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> >title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
> >   =
>
>href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu">new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu</A>=
> >  </DIV>
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2004
=
> >12:40=20
> >   AM</DIV>
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [New-Poetry] Fwd:=20
> >   [SpiralBridgePoets] Sapphire,writing workshop,Brooklyn Alternative=20
> >   Press...</DIV>
> >   <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_01C4_01C3F93E.A0DC5A30--
> >
> >
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >Message: 4
> >From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
> >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:46:12 +0100
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3F974.24D46E10
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="UTF-8"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> >A well-depicted image of the few who could have been different among the
=
> >many.
> >   ----- Original Message -----=20
> >   From: JforJames at aol.com=20
> >   To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
> >   Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 6:12 PM
> >   Subject: [New-Poetry] The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
> >
> >
> >   The Ballad of Rafe Nadir
> >
> >   Once there was a man of good standing,=20
> >   a Don Quixote to be counted on
> >   in fights for justice and the earth.
> >   But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s allure
> >   seeped into his soul. And he=20
> >   became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.
> >
> >   There are no independents, really,
> >   there are only uncommitted centrists
> >   ready to pushed this way & that=20
> >   by the bullies of the body politic.=20
> >   Pity, he never read much Machiavelli.
> >   You must know what you loathe.
> >
> >   Now as a fringe candidate, he moves
> >   across the tundra with the caribou herds,
> >   and like a wolf he hunts at the edges
> >   of their periodic migration, taking=20
> >   down only the weak and the sick,=20
> >   the injured and the young.
> >------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3F974.24D46E10
> >Content-Type: text/html;
> > charset="UTF-8"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> >=EF=BB=BF<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> ><HTML><HEAD>
> ><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
> ><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
> ><STYLE></STYLE>
> ></HEAD>
> ><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> ><DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000080 size=3D2>A well-depicted image =
> >of the few who=20
> >could have been different among the many.</FONT></DIV>
> ><BLOCKQUOTE=20
> >style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> >BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> >   <DIV=20
> >   style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> >black"><B>From:</B>=20
> >   <A title=3DJforJames at aol.com=20
> >   href=3D"mailto:JforJames at aol.com">JforJames at aol.com</A> </DIV>
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> >title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20
> >   =
>
>href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu">new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu</A>=
> >  </DIV>
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 22, 2004
=
> >6:12=20
> >   PM</DIV>
> >   <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [New-Poetry] The =
> >Ballad of Rafe=20
> >   Nadir</DIV>
> >   <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
> >face=3DArial size=3D2=20
> >   FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10">The Ballad of Rafe =
> >Nadir<BR><BR>Once there was=20
> >   a man of good standing, <BR>a Don Quixote to be counted on<BR>in =
> >fights for=20
> >   justice and the earth.<BR>But in time the limelight=E2=80=99s =
> >allure<BR>seeped into=20
> >   his soul. And he <BR>became a na=C3=AFve Narcissus.<BR><BR>There are =
> >no=20
> >   independents, really,<BR>there are only uncommitted centrists<BR>ready
=
> >to=20
> >   pushed this way &amp; that <BR>by the bullies of the body politic. =
> ><BR>Pity,=20
> >   he never read much Machiavelli.<BR>You must know what you =
> >loathe.<BR><BR>Now=20
> >   as a fringe candidate, he moves<BR>across the tundra with the
caribou=20
> >   herds,<BR>and like a wolf he hunts at the edges<BR>of their
periodic=20
> >   migration, taking <BR>down only the weak and the sick, <BR>the injured
=
> >and the=20
> >   young.</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3F974.24D46E10--
> >
> >
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >Message: 5
> >From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Blog
> >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:04:39 -0500
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0402_01C3F944.6E3ED610
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> >>That's the great thing about having your own blog
> >
> >Righto, Mole.  It's also one of the few good things about being old: the
=
> >impossibility of gaining recognition finally becomes too obvious for one
=
> >to continue being self-effacing in hopes of making friends.
> >
> >--Bob G.
> >.
> >
> >     I now have a short discussion of this poem at my blog.  It's in the
=
> >entry for yesterday.  I compare it to a poem of mine and say why mine is
=
> >better!
> >
> >     http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html
> >
> >     I've been trying for two days to post this Important Information to
=
> >New-Poetry and had my attempts blocked.  I remember others were having =
> >trouble, yes?  And I received no New-Poetry messages yesterday or the =
> >day before.  Anyway, here's another try to get through.
> >
> >     --Bob G.
> >
> >
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0402_01C3F944.6E3ED610
> >Content-Type: text/html;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> ><HTML><HEAD>
> ><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
> >charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> ><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1276" name=3DGENERATOR>
> ><STYLE></STYLE>
> ></HEAD>
> ><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> ><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;That's the great thing about having
=
> >your own=20
> >blog</FONT></DIV>
> ><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> ><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Righto, Mole.&nbsp; It's also one of =
> >the few good=20
> >things about being old: the impossibility of gaining recognition finally
=
> >becomes=20
> >too obvious for one to continue being self-effacing in hopes of making=20
> >friends.</FONT></DIV>
> ><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> ><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>--Bob G.</FONT></DIV>
> ><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT><BR></DIV>
> ><BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> >style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> >   <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> >   style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> >     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
> >     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
> >size=3D3>I now have=20
> >     a short discussion of this poem at my blog.&nbsp; It's in the entry
=
> >for=20
> >     yesterday.&nbsp; I compare it to a poem of mine and say why mine
is=20
> >     better!<BR><BR></FONT><A=20
> >     =
> >href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html"><FONT
=
> >
> >     face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
> >     =
>
>size=3D3>http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html</FONT>=
> ></A><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
> >     face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV>
> >     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
> >     <DIV>I've been trying for two days to post this Important =
> >Information to=20
> >     New-Poetry and had my attempts blocked.&nbsp; I remember others were
=
> >having=20
> >     trouble, yes?&nbsp; And I received no New-Poetry messages yesterday
=
> >or the=20
> >     day before.&nbsp; Anyway, here's another try to get through.</DIV>
> >     <DIV><BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>--Bob=20
> >     G.</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT></DIV>
> >     <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> >     <DIV><FONT=20
>
>face=3Darial,helvetica></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BOD=
> >Y></HTML>
> >
> >------=_NextPart_000_0402_01C3F944.6E3ED610--
> >
> >
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >Message: 6
> >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:25:22 -0600
> >From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >A few somewhat lengthy provocations from Garrison Keillor's anthology,
*Good
> >Poems*.  These are excerpts from his introductory essay.  Relevant to
some
> >recent discussion hereabouts about narrative, innovation and such.
> >----------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >Oblivion is the writer's greatest fear, and as with the fear of death,
one
> >finds evidence to support it. You fear that your work, the work of your
> >lifetime, on which you labored so unspeakably hard and for which you
stood
> >on so many rocky shores and thought, My life has been wasted
utterly--your
> >work will have its brief shining moment, the band plays, some confetti is
> >tossed, you are photographed with your family, drinks are served, people
> >squeeze your hand and say that you seem to have lost weight, and then the
> >work languishes in the bookstore and dies and is remaindered and finally
> >entombed on a shelf and--nobody ever looks at it again! Nobody! This
happens
> >rather often, actually. . . .
> >
> >     When the reader does not forget, when the reader has even committed
the
> >poem to memory and can quote it years later, this is a triumph of large
> >proportions.
> >
> >     What makes a poem memorable is its narrative line. A story is easier
to
> >remember than a puzzle.  (And there are rules in storytelling that make
for
> >a better poem: Stop Mumbling, No Prefaces, Cut to the Chase, Don't Sound
> >Like a Writer, Be Real.)
> >
> >     Good poems tend to incorporate some story, some cadence or shadow of
> >story. There is a story in Dickinson's Success is counted sweetest by
those
> >who ne'er succeed and Shakespeare's When in disgrace with fortune and
men's
> >eyes and Wright's Just off the highway to Rochester, Minnesota/Twilight
> >bounds softly forth on the grass./And the eyes of those two Indian
> >ponies/Darken with kindness and Oliver's You do not have to be good./ You
do
> >not have to walk on your knees/ For a hundred miles through the desert,
> >repenting. And Merwin's ''For the Anniversary of My Death" (Every year
> >without knowing it I have passed the day/When the last fires will wave to
> >me.) You could, without much trouble, commit these poems to memory and
have
> >them by heart, like a cello in your head, a portable beauty to steady you
> >and ward off despair.
> >
> >     Raymond Carver said, "Whether I am writing a poem or writing prose,
I am
> >still trying to tell a story." Kenneth Rexroth called on poets to write
> >about "real things that happen to real people" and when a critic referred
to
> >him as one of the bearshit-on-the-trail nature poets, Rexroth took it as
an
> >honor. Dana Gioia said, "When poets stopped telling stories, they not
only
> >lost a substantial portion of their audience; they also narrowed the
> >imaginative possibilities of their art. As long as there have been poets,
> >those poets told stories. Those stories were rarely about their own lives
> >but about imagined lives--drawn from myth, legend, history, or current
> >events.
> >
> >     .  .  .  .
> >
> >     Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I
once
> >cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski
said,
> >"There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to
> >understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a
simple
> >way."  This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back when
I
> >was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly layered,
> >unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his odes
to
> >companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good humor,
> >e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his
time
> >but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live
with
> >any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their
> >prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? .  . .
> >
> >     And then there is T. S Eliot, the great stuffed owl whose glassy
eyes
> >mesmerized the English profs of my day.  Eliot was once a cultural icon,
the
> >American guy so smooth he passed for British, and when he came to
> >Minneapolis on tour in the mid-fifties, he practically filled a
basketball
> >arena; he was a bigger draw than Frost, Prufrock being required reading
in
> >the eleventh grade, but you look at his work today and it seems rather
> >bloodless next  to, say, Rexroth's. Eliot didn't get out of the house
much
> >while Rexroth was dancing all over town. Anybody who would rather read
Ash
> >Wednesday than Rexroth's love poems must be on the take. And yet Rexroth
was
> >never mentioned in the halls of the English Department when  I was there,
> >nor was Ferlinghetti, that great-hearted, God-gifted man. His City Lights
> >bookstore has always been a mecca in San Francisco. His friend Allen
> >Ginsberg, on the other hand, a good man, admirable in so many ways
> >(especially for Kaddish), was something of a gasbag, not big on
rewriting,
> >and reading his Collected Poems is like hiking across North Dakota. I
> >stopped just beyond Fargo.
> >
> >     .  .  .  .  .  .
> >
> >     If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
> >example, which only means writers whose work might include references to
> >farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that
dreary
> >term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the
back
> >bedroom. .  .  .
> >
> >. . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic of
> >letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay it's a
> >straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit and
a
> >hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin, two
> >women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is a
> >small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take anywhere.
You
> >could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention
would
> >not drift.
> >
> >     What makes Kumin and Sexton matter, and makes all good poems matter,
is
> >that they offer a truer account than what we're used to getting. They
> >surprise us with clear pictures of the familiar. The soft arc of an
> >afternoon in a few lines. Poems that make us love this gaudy,
> >mother-scented, mud-bedaubed language of ours. A cunning low tongue,
> >English, with its rich vocabulary of slander and concupiscence and sport,
> >its fine Latin overlay and French bric-a-brac, and when someone speaks
> >poetry in it, it stirs our little monolingual hearts.
> >
> >     The love of language is the love of truth, and this brings one into
> >conflict with authority, since power employs deceit and is so fond of
> >it--Rexroth said: "The accepted official version of anything is most
likely
> >false ... all authority is based on fraud"--but the love of language is a
> >fundamental connection to our fellows and is a basis of true civility. .
. .
> >.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >====================================================
> >David Graham
> >grahamd at ripon.edu
> >Home Page:
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >Poetry Library:
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >====================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >Message: 7
> >From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
> >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:02:39 -0500
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >Well, Keillor HAS chosen to read a few Robert Lax poems on his show, so I
> >guess he can't be called a 100% philistine.
> >
> >--Bob G.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>  A few somewhat lengthy provocations from Garrison Keillor's anthology,
> >*Good
> >>  Poems*.  These are excerpts from his introductory essay.  Relevant to
some
> >>  recent discussion hereabouts about narrative, innovation and such.
> >>  ----------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>  Oblivion is the writer's greatest fear, and as with the fear of death,
one
> >>  finds evidence to support it. You fear that your work, the work of
your
> >>  lifetime, on which you labored so unspeakably hard and for which you
stood
> >>  on so many rocky shores and thought, My life has been wasted
utterly--your
> >>  work will have its brief shining moment, the band plays, some confetti
is
> >>  tossed, you are photographed with your family, drinks are served,
people
> >>  squeeze your hand and say that you seem to have lost weight, and then
the
> >>  work languishes in the bookstore and dies and is remaindered and
finally
> >>  entombed on a shelf and--nobody ever looks at it again! Nobody! This
> >happens
> >>  rather often, actually. . . .
> >>
> >>      When the reader does not forget, when the reader has even
committed
> >the
> >>  poem to memory and can quote it years later, this is a triumph of
large
> >>  proportions.
> >>
> >>      What makes a poem memorable is its narrative line. A story is
easier
> >to
> >>  remember than a puzzle.  (And there are rules in storytelling that
make
> >for
> >>  a better poem: Stop Mumbling, No Prefaces, Cut to the Chase, Don't
Sound
> >>  Like a Writer, Be Real.)
> >>
> >>      Good poems tend to incorporate some story, some cadence or shadow
of
> >>  story. There is a story in Dickinson's Success is counted sweetest by
> >those
> >>  who ne'er succeed and Shakespeare's When in disgrace with fortune and
> >men's
> >>  eyes and Wright's Just off the highway to Rochester,
Minnesota/Twilight
> >>  bounds softly forth on the grass./And the eyes of those two Indian
> >>  ponies/Darken with kindness and Oliver's You do not have to be good./
You
> >do
> >>  not have to walk on your knees/ For a hundred miles through the
desert,
> >>  repenting. And Merwin's ''For the Anniversary of My Death" (Every year
> >>  without knowing it I have passed the day/When the last fires will wave
to
> >>  me.) You could, without much trouble, commit these poems to memory and
> >have
> >>  them by heart, like a cello in your head, a portable beauty to steady
you
> >>  and ward off despair.
> >>
> >>      Raymond Carver said, "Whether I am writing a poem or writing
prose, I
> >am
> >>  still trying to tell a story." Kenneth Rexroth called on poets to
write
> >>  about "real things that happen to real people" and when a critic
referred
> >to
> >>  him as one of the bearshit-on-the-trail nature poets, Rexroth took it
as
> >an
> >>  honor. Dana Gioia said, "When poets stopped telling stories, they not
only
> >>  lost a substantial portion of their audience; they also narrowed the
> >>  imaginative possibilities of their art. As long as there have been
poets,
> >>  those poets told stories. Those stories were rarely about their own
lives
> >>  but about imagined lives--drawn from myth, legend, history, or current
> >>  events.
> >>
> >>      .  .  .  .
> >>
> >>      Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I
> >once
> >>  cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski
> >said,
> >>  "There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to
> >>  understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a
> >simple
> >>  way."  This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back
when
> >I
> >>  was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly
layered,
> >>  unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his
odes
> >to
> >>  companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good
humor,
> >>  e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his
> >time
> >>  but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live
with
> >>  any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their
> >>  prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? .  . .
> >>
> >>      And then there is T. S Eliot, the great stuffed owl whose glassy
eyes
> >>  mesmerized the English profs of my day.  Eliot was once a cultural
icon,
> >the
> >>  American guy so smooth he passed for British, and when he came to
> >>  Minneapolis on tour in the mid-fifties, he practically filled a
basketball
> >>  arena; he was a bigger draw than Frost, Prufrock being required
reading in
> >>  the eleventh grade, but you look at his work today and it seems rather
> >>  bloodless next  to, say, Rexroth's. Eliot didn't get out of the house
much
> >>  while Rexroth was dancing all over town. Anybody who would rather read
Ash
> >>  Wednesday than Rexroth's love poems must be on the take. And yet
Rexroth
> >was
> >>  never mentioned in the halls of the English Department when  I was
there,
> >>  nor was Ferlinghetti, that great-hearted, God-gifted man. His City
Lights
> >>  bookstore has always been a mecca in San Francisco. His friend Allen
> >>  Ginsberg, on the other hand, a good man, admirable in so many ways
> >>  (especially for Kaddish), was something of a gasbag, not big on
rewriting,
> >>  and reading his Collected Poems is like hiking across North Dakota. I
> >>  stopped just beyond Fargo.
> >>
> >>      .  .  .  .  .  .
> >>
> >>      If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional,"
for
> >>  example, which only means writers whose work might include references
to
> >>  farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that
> >dreary
> >>  term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the
back
> >>  bedroom. .  .  .
> >>
> >>  . . .Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in the republic
of
> >>  letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From Millay it's a
> >>  straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance and wit
and
> >a
> >>  hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine Kumin,
two
> >>  women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath is
a
> >>  small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take
anywhere.
> >You
> >>  could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention
> >would
> >>  not drift.
> >>
> >>      What makes Kumin and Sexton matter, and makes all good poems
matter,
> >is
> >>  that they offer a truer account than what we're used to getting. They
> >>  surprise us with clear pictures of the familiar. The soft arc of an
> >>  afternoon in a few lines. Poems that make us love this gaudy,
> >>  mother-scented, mud-bedaubed language of ours. A cunning low tongue,
> >>  English, with its rich vocabulary of slander and concupiscence and
sport,
> >>  its fine Latin overlay and French bric-a-brac, and when someone speaks
> >>  poetry in it, it stirs our little monolingual hearts.
> >  >
> >>      The love of language is the love of truth, and this brings one
into
> >>  conflict with authority, since power employs deceit and is so fond of
> >>  it--Rexroth said: "The accepted official version of anything is most
> >likely
> >>  false ... all authority is based on fraud"--but the love of language
is a
> >>  fundamental connection to our fellows and is a basis of true civility.
. .
> >.
> >>  .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  ====================================================
> >>  David Graham
> >>  grahamd at ripon.edu
> >>  Home Page:
> >>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >>  Poetry Library:
> >>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >>  ====================================================
> >>
> >>
> >>  _______________________________________________
> >>  New-Poetry mailing list
> >>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--__--__--
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >End of New-Poetry Digest
>
>
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 23 15:15:19 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:15:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
References: <72FEF8B6-6617-11D8-BE83-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <016d01c3fa49$c385fa80$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>



  On Monday, February 23, 2004, at 06:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:

    I suspect he considers her, like so many other poets and would-be poets, to be a mere free-verse doodler.


  She rarely, if ever, wrote free verse. 

  Wendy

  Do you think Garrison realizes that?  (Not that syllabics are more than 4% different from free verse.)

  --Bob G.

  --Bob G.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040223/fcaf5c1e/attachment.html>

From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Mon Feb 23 15:17:24 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:17:24 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
References: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D2@exchange.uta.edu> <007f01c3fa46$c86d0af0$e2607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>
Message-ID: <00ab01c3fa4a$0d7d3860$e2607550@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Jeex, on board, no head,
time to retire, about 20 years in advance, cheers, a

From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 8:54 PM


> Welcome abroad New Poetry Chris, I think we all need some of your most
> enthusiastic spirit,
>
> till the next one, cheers
> Anny
>
> From: "Christine Murray" <cmurray at uta.edu>
>
>
> > Hello, All-- 
> >
> > I'm new to this list and happy to have found you all, some of whom I
know
> > from other venues and lists (Hi Anny! Hi Mike!).
> >
> > I'm at University of Texas, Arlington, where I teach writing courses-- 
> this
> > semester, a seminar in poetry writing (I also direct the Writing Center
> > here, am an editorial committee member for the lit journal, Znine, and I
> > organize our Spring poetry reading series, Poetry_Heat).
> >
> > & to David Graham, many thanks for the intriguing passages from Garrison
> > Keillor. I think my students will get a lot out of discussing these,
> since,
> > somewhat coincidentally (though it is an ongoing question for
contemporary
> > poets, I think), this question of the place of narrative in their own
> poetry
> > writing has been a hot topic just recently in their workshopping for the
> > class.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Chris Murray
> >
> > http://www.uta.edu/english/znine
> > http://poetry_heat.typepad.com
> > http://texfiles.blogspot.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Feb 23 15:29:40 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:29:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: [Good Poems
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1FB@ariel.ripon.edu>

Not sure who you're trying to bait or why, Bob, but for the record:  Keillor
includes both metrical and free verse in his anthology.  So if you're trying
to paint him as a newformalista just because he quotes Dana Gioia, well,
it's a bad likeness.  

The anthology includes prose poems, pop song lyrics, psalms, parodies,
speeches from plays, a passage or two lifted from novels, folk songs, and a
whole lotta contemporary verse free and otherwise.  In its magpie
inclusiveness it does rather resemble many anthologies of olde, before the
Anthology Wars, but no, it doesn't go near anything that would be termed
"innovative" or "experimental."   
============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Bob Grumman
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, February 23, 2004 2:15 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Good Poems
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 	On Monday, February 23, 2004, at 06:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> 
> 		I suspect he considers her, like so many other poets and
> would-be poets, to be a mere free-verse doodler.
> 
> 
> 
> 	She rarely, if ever, wrote free verse. 
> 
> 	Wendy
> 
> 	Do you think Garrison realizes that?  (Not that syllabics are more
> than 4% different from free verse.)
> 	 
> 	--Bob G.
> 	 
> 	--Bob G.
> 
> 


From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Mon Feb 23 15:45:48 2004
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:45:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Good Poems
In-Reply-To: <BC5EC5E9.6E89%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <42EBD090-6641-11D8-A7D0-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Thanks, David.  I'd rather read Bishop than Moore too, most days.  But 
then I'd rather read Bishop than almost anyone, most days.  And I can 
picture Keillor's caricatures of Moore and Millay residing happily in 
Lake Woebegone; I should have guessed.  Books are mirrors.

Wendy


On Sunday, February 22, 2004, at 09:47 PM, David Graham wrote:

> Here's the entire paragraph from which I excerpted the Moore remarks. 
> I cut
> out the bit about women's lit because I thought there was probably 
> enough
> provocation in his other remarks.
>
> In any case I believe Moore is being accused of dullness and 
> pretention.
> The opinions expressed are those of Garrison Keillor, I hasten to say. 
>  I
> don't necessarily endorse them, and have a longstanding fondness for 
> Moore.
>
> But I will say that my own taste has been evolving in recent years.  
> Where
> once I preferred Moore to Bishop, it's now the reverse.
>
> Like Keillor, too, I once looked down my nose at Raymond Carver's 
> poetry,
> but find as I grow older it grows better.  Rexroth's, too.
>
>
>
> ----------
> If you read a lot, labels start to seem meaningless. "Regional," for
> example, which only means writers whose work might include references 
> to
> farming, is a useless term. Likewise, "confessional" poetry. And that 
> dreary
> term, "light verse," which banishes humor like an insane uncle to the 
> back
> bedroom. "Women's lit" strikes me as one of the great dumb ideas to 
> come out
> of my generation, right up there with multiculturalism. Elizabeth 
> Bishop was
> a woman, ditto Emily Dickinson, and she can take your head off with one
> line, too, but if you marshal women writers under one tent, 
> comparisons are
> inevitable, and the occupants will not be content for long. When you 
> compare
> Bishop to, say, her friend and mentor Marianne Moore, the mentor pales
> severely.  Marianne Moore was a dotty old aunt whose poems are quite
> replicable for anyone with a thesaurus. A nice lady, but definitely a
> plodder, and it would be cruel punishment to have to write a book 
> about her.
> Her contemporary, Edna St. Vincent Millay, who played the glamorous 
> broad
> and taxi dancer to Moore's, bunhead librarian, wrote more that is 
> still of
> interest, whereas Moore's reputation must be due to the fact that, in 
> the
> republic of letters, there are many more Moores than Millays. From 
> Millay
> it's a straight shot to Anne Sexton, a writer of profound exuberance 
> and wit
> and a hot number, and her cohort, the beautiful horsekeeper, Maxine 
> Kumin,
> two women who, forgive me, make St. Sylvia look like tuna salad. Plath 
> is a
> small dark cloud and Kumin and Sexton are writers you can take 
> anywhere. You
> could read them at the beach, in blazing sunlight, and your attention 
> would
> not drift.
> --Garrison Keillor
> -----------
>
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>

>
Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Don't walk so fast.  The rain is everywhere.
       --Shunryu Suzuki



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Feb 23 15:13:30 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:13:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1F2@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BC5FBB0A.615E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/20/04 2:13 PM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:

> 
> 
> On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry
> 
> The pretty, pampered poet in middle age
> is telling us we've lost our sense of smell.
> But my olfactory tube works rather well,
> reading his latest offerings on the page.
> 
> -- James Cummins
> 
> from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.
> 
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Department of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Why hasn't anyone asked or guessed? Come on, David, who IS it Cummins mocks
in the epigram.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



From cmurray at uta.edu  Mon Feb 23 16:58:53 2004
From: cmurray at uta.edu (Christine Murray)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:58:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
Message-ID: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D5@exchange.uta.edu>

Dear Anny, Tony, Michael--

Thanks so much for your warm welcome.  
Looking forward, then.

Best to All,

Chris
http://texfiles.blogspot.com 

"Loba's acid breast 
licked once disarms my
psychic knots... "--Miguel Algarin, "San Francisco"

-----Original Message-----
From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 2/23/2004 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  

Welcome abroad New Poetry Chris, I think we all need some of your most
enthusiastic spirit,

till the next one, cheers
Anny

From: "Christine Murray" <cmurray at uta.edu>


> Hello, All-- 
>
> I'm new to this list and happy to have found you all, some of whom I
know
> from other venues and lists (Hi Anny! Hi Mike!).
>
> I'm at University of Texas, Arlington, where I teach writing courses--

this
> semester, a seminar in poetry writing (I also direct the Writing
Center
> here, am an editorial committee member for the lit journal, Znine, and
I
> organize our Spring poetry reading series, Poetry_Heat).
>
> & to David Graham, many thanks for the intriguing passages from
Garrison
> Keillor. I think my students will get a lot out of discussing these,
since,
> somewhat coincidentally (though it is an ongoing question for
contemporary
> poets, I think), this question of the place of narrative in their own
poetry
> writing has been a hot topic just recently in their workshopping for
the
> class.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Chris Murray
>
> http://www.uta.edu/english/znine
> http://poetry_heat.typepad.com
> http://texfiles.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Feb 23 17:32:55 2004
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:32:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1FE@ariel.ripon.edu>

> > 
> > On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry
> > 
> > The pretty, pampered poet in middle age
> > is telling us we've lost our sense of smell.
> > But my olfactory tube works rather well,
> > reading his latest offerings on the page.
> > 
> > -- James Cummins
> > 
> > from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.
> 
> > 
> Why hasn't anyone asked or guessed? Come on, David, who IS it Cummins
> mocks
> in the epigram.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
Well, I've been wondering why no one took me up on this riddle, too.  One
more chance before I spill the beans. . . .

Hint:  poet born in the 1920s.  The PBS special is, of course, a Bill Moyers
production.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Feb 23 17:39:20 2004
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:39:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: [Good Poems
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A1FB@ariel.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01d801c3fa5d$e21c16a0$72efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc>

> Not sure who you're trying to bait or why, Bob, but for the record:
Keillor
> includes both metrical and free verse in his anthology.  So if you're
trying
> to paint him as a newformalista just because he quotes Dana Gioia, well,
> it's a bad likeness.

Nope.  I was saying he probably thinks Moore is a loose-mouthed finicky
minor free-verse poet.  In other words, he thinks she's a dime-a-dozen sort
of free verser.  I was guessing at why he didn't like Moore.  I wasn't out
to bait anyone.

> The anthology includes prose poems, pop song lyrics, psalms, parodies,
> speeches from plays, a passage or two lifted from novels, folk songs, and
a
> whole lotta contemporary verse free and otherwise.  In its magpie
> inclusiveness it does rather resemble many anthologies of olde, before the
> Anthology Wars, but no, it doesn't go near anything that would be termed
> "innovative" or "experimental."

I knew that.  It'll sell a million copies and be lauded as evidence of
America's love of poetry.

--Bob G.




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Feb 23 21:47:31 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:47:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
References: <BB48F73042D29D41A033A684D5FBB984011B35D5@exchange.uta.edu>
Message-ID: <00a601c3fa80$8e5f3d30$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Add one more welcome.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Christine Murray" <cmurray at uta.edu>
To: "'Anny Ballardini '" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>;
<new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems


> Dear Anny, Tony, Michael--
>
> Thanks so much for your warm welcome.
> Looking forward, then.
>
> Best to All,
>
> Chris
> http://texfiles.blogspot.com
>
> "Loba's acid breast
> licked once disarms my
> psychic knots... "--Miguel Algarin, "San Francisco"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 2/23/2004 1:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems
>
> Welcome abroad New Poetry Chris, I think we all need some of your most
> enthusiastic spirit,
>
> till the next one, cheers
> Anny
>
> From: "Christine Murray" <cmurray at uta.edu>
>
>
> > Hello, All--
> >
> > I'm new to this list and happy to have found you all, some of whom I
> know
> > from other venues and lists (Hi Anny! Hi Mike!).
> >
> > I'm at University of Texas, Arlington, where I teach writing courses--
>
> this
> > semester, a seminar in poetry writing (I also direct the Writing
> Center
> > here, am an editorial committee member for the lit journal, Znine, and
> I
> > organize our Spring poetry reading series, Poetry_Heat).
> >
> > & to David Graham, many thanks for the intriguing passages from
> Garrison
> > Keillor. I think my students will get a lot out of discussing these,
> since,
> > somewhat coincidentally (though it is an ongoing question for
> contemporary
> > poets, I think), this question of the place of narrative in their own
> poetry
> > writing has been a hot topic just recently in their workshopping for
> the
> > class.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Chris Murray
> >
> > http://www.uta.edu/english/znine
> > http://poetry_heat.typepad.com
> > http://texfiles.blogspot.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Feb 23 23:34:16 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:34:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Critics Circles nominees / Poetry
Message-ID: <198.261c5faa.2d6c2e48@aol.com>

 
from the February 24, 2004 edition - 
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0224/p17s01-bogn.html 

National Book Critics Circles nominees / Poetry
The poetry finalists for this year's National Book Critics Circle awards have 
very little in common, at least on the surface. One writer uses a breezy, 
conversational tone, for example, while another sculpts and crafts every 
sentence. A third poet composes in a foreign language, while a fourth writes about 
distant cultures. In addition to their differences in style and approach, the 
nominees also represent different ends of the career spectrum: One woman has just 
published her first book, while another has long been considered a major 
poet. 
What the nominees seem to share, however, is a longing to connect with 
something larger than themselves, whether that something is God or the American 
psyche. Of the five nominees, two are searching for spiritual understanding, and 
two are trying to save and transform pieces of very difficult pasts. This sense 
of reaching gives poets more depth and poignancy, and it gives readers 
another reason to invest our time in close, thoughtful reading.

All the nominated authors have been invited to read from their work on March 
3 at the New School in New York City. In addition to the presentation of 
prizes at the ceremony on March 4, Pulitzer Prize-winner Studs Terkel will receive 
a lifetime achievement award. Both events are open to the public. For details 
go to www.bookcritics.org. - Elizabeth Lund

What Narcissism Means to Me, by Tony Hoagland, Graywolf Press, 78 pp., $14 
In his first two books, Tony Hoagland displayed great candor and 
incisiveness. Whether his subject was dating or his dad's infirmity, Hoagland unabashedly 
rendered the details and captured his subjects' unspoken fears. His best work 
had a perceptive grace, an everyman's perspective. There could also be a 
withering sense of humor.

These qualities are present to a lesser degree in Hoagland's third book, 
"What Narcissism Means to Me," in which he explores how the themes of love, aging, 
and the search for purpose relate to 21st-century culture. Think "American 
Graffiti" meets middle age.

The writing, which is simple and direct, focuses primarily on the mundane, at 
times reaching the poignant. Some of the work addresses sensitive subjects - 
such as race relations - but as in his earlier books, Hoagland really shines 
when he turns his eye toward people's unresolved struggles and confusion. At 
times there is artistry in the poet's stanzas, but for the most part he sticks 
with unadorned portraits. In "Impossible Dream," he writes: "I was reading a 
book about pleasure,/ how you have to glide through it/ without clinging,/ like 
an arrow/ passing through a target,/ coming out the other side and going on." A
 few more moments of such simple brilliance would have really lit this 
collection.

She Says, by V?nus Khoury-Ghata, Graywolf Press, 163 pp., $15 
In the poems of Lebanese-born V?nus Khoury-Ghata, language is not just a 
vehicle. It provides a setting, subject matter, and a lens for this long-time 
Paris resident, a "stray between two languages," as she refers to herself. So 
perhaps it should come as no surprise that some of the book's most memorable poems 
focus on language. Take, for example, these lines from "Where do words come 
from?": "Words are rocky tears/ the keys to the first doors/ they grumble in 
caverns/ lend their ruckus to storms/ their silence to bread that's ovened 
alive." What is startling, however, is the even quality and tone throughout "She 
Says." Translator Marilyn Hacker deserves a lot of credit for that, and for 
making sure that Khoury-Ghata's images are consistently polished and evocative: 
"The wind in the fig tree quiets down when she speaks," "Autumn preceded summer 
by one day," "The frost that year shattered both the indoors and outdoors." 
The "she" who tenaciously survives in many of these poems is an alluring figure, 
but the poems become predictable after a while, and the surreal nature of the 
work can be a bit frustrating. A fire on the moon, for example, is just that. 
The image has no deeper meaning.

Granted, by Mary Szybist, Alice James Books, 60 pp., $13.95 
"Granted" is Mary Szybist's debut collection, but this poet can certainly 
hold her own against the other four more experienced finalists. In fact, with her 
intelligence and understated grace, Szybist may become one of the best-known 
writers of her generation. In "Granted," she explores a timeless theme - 
spiritual and romantic longing. In page after page, she wrestles with faith and 
hope, struggling to find peace by finding freedom from desire. In the process, 
she lures readers into a hidden place somewhere between intellect and silence. 
Syzbist opens her poems beautifully, with intriguing lines and images: "We like 
loss to be quiet," "Yes, the open mouth/ of your watering can, it/ reminds me 
of you...." Many of her descriptions are evocative, and at times she makes 
wonderful, surprising leaps, as in these lines: "Before I started to love you/ I 
tried to love the world:/ the plump, dumb oranges that crushed/ in my mouth, 
the waves that rolled upshore/ until they were eyelid thin and purple...." 
This collection has many strengths, but the poet sometimes seems a bit too 
reserved, as though she could offer more wisdom, more directness. Give Szybist a 
chance, however. Her second book may show even more depth and reach.

Columbarium, by Susan Stewart, University of Chicago Press, 122 pp., $22.50 
"Columbarium," like Mary Szybist's "Granted," deals with the spiritual realm. 
But Stewart wants to convey more than emotions or lyrical descriptions. In 
this, her fourth book, she tries to reveal certain truths about the mind and the 
senses, the living and the dead, the physical world and the metaphysical 
realm. To do this, she juxtaposes solid-looking free verse with looser poetic 
forms. In some poems, the words sweep across the page like a flock of sparrows. 
But Stewart also makes her subject matter do a great deal of work, and her 
topics vary from scarecrows to dreams to views of hell. In the best of these poems, 
Stewart combines lovely sounds and images with ideas about the invisible 
forces that undergird life on earth. In "Rewind" she writes: "Strange how he had 
written, when he was thinking about music,/ that it is not motion, but a 
miracle, if a thing changes/ place without crossing the interval/ between its former 
and latter place." Some readers will feel that the book really quenches their 
thirst for understanding, but others may find themselves wishing for less 
visual effect and longer, more frequent drinks at the fountain.

Blue Hour, by Carolyn Forch?, Harper Collins, 73 pp., $24.95 
Carolyn Forch? has long been known as a "poet of witness," a writer who 
refuses to forget the oppressed. Her political reputation was established in 1982, 
when she published a book about her work in El Salvador as a human rights 
activist. Now, in her fourth collection, Forch? travels in a different direction, 
journeying inside the emotions and the soul. The title "Blue Hour" refers to 
the time between night and daylight, a period associated with waiting for 
salvation. In Forch?'s case, however, salvation is earned by learning to recall 
painful events, to observe them with clear eyes while somehow retaining a shred 
of innocence. The title poem, which includes scenes from Paris, does contain 
some warm maternal moments, but there are also brutal details of childhood abuse 
and the chilling statement that: "You see, one can live without having 
survived." The longest poem, "On Earth," is modeled on ancient gnostic hymns, and 
like many of the pages in "Blue Hour," this section demands several readings. 
Some readers may find the work too dense or confusing. Of the five nominees, 
this book is the most challenging.

 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040223/2dcc3d6f/attachment.html>

From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 24 07:56:19 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:56:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
In-Reply-To: <036a01c3fa1b$b07674c0$bba88051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <403B03A3.27864.245666@localhost>

On 23 Feb 2004 at 14:45, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> Couldn't you two shift this backchannel, then nobody would have to
> bother deleting?
> ... especially as way back when, one or the other of you insisted that
> this was a private argument that nobody else was supposed to get
> involved in?

Robin, Grumman's the one who engages in the name-calling; I merely 
point it out. The disagreement is a public one, not a private one, 
since Grumman is doing his name-calling publicly.

Marcus







From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Feb 24 08:27:09 2004
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:27:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems  
In-Reply-To: <403B03A3.27864.245666@localhost>
References: <036a01c3fa1b$b07674c0$bba88051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <403B0ADD.20850.408E43@localhost>

> On 23 Feb 2004 at 14:45, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > Couldn't you two shift this backchannel, then nobody would have to
> > bother deleting? ... especially as way back when, one or the other
> > of you insisted that this was a private argument that nobody else
> > was supposed to get involved in?

"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a
really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would  
actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from  
them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it 
should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful.
But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something  
like that happened in politics or religion." -Carl Sagan







From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Tue Feb 24 10:51:08 2004
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:51:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Intro & Good Poems
Message-ID: <20040224155108.D4B36725E@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040224/06c6fb87/attachment.ksh>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 24 15:50:49 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:50:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Drunken Boat, Issue#6, Live - Featuring Norman Mailer
Message-ID: <46.47acb6ed.2d6d1329@aol.com>

Subj:    Drunken Boat, Issue#6, Live - Featuring Norman Mailer 
Date:   2/23/04 3:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   ShankarR at mail.ccsu.edu (Shankar, Ravi (English))


DRUNKEN BOAT, international online journal of the arts 
<http://www.drunkenboat.com>, announces the publication of its SIXTH ISSUE, including POEMS by 
Andrea Baker, Brian Kim Stefans,Mark Bibbins, Lyn Lifshin, Kevin Cantwell, Aaron 
McCollough, Stephen Cushman, Jessy Randall,Benjamin Gantcher, David Starkey, 
Sarah Gridley and Lina ramona Vitkauskas, PROSE by David Barringer, Alyce Lomax, 
kari edwards, Marc Pietrzykowski, Thomas Fink and Felicia Sullivan, VIDEO by 
David Ambrose, Lila Yomtoob, Nick Fox-Gieg and Mark O'Connell, PHOTOS by 
Nicholas Lawrus, Eddy Seesing, Hoag Holmgren, and Daniel Simmons, SOUND by Jim 
Andrews, Geoffrey Datson, Latasha Natasha Diggs, and Cary Peppermint, CYBERTEXT by 
Wolf Kahlen,  Tony Rickaby, Robert Kendall, Dorothee Lang, Lisa Bloomfield and 
Rod Val Moore, WEB ART by Larry Carlson, Yucef Merhi, Alan Berliner, and 
Philip Wood, and FEATURING Pulitzer Prize and National Book Award winner Norman 
Mailer interviewed by Barry Leeds.

Drunken Boat is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization that depends on the 
contributions of its readership for sustenance. Please take a moment to contribute 
to keeping the independent arts alive 
<http://www.drunkenboat.com/db6/donate.html>. 

Please direct any queries or submissions to <editor at drunkenboat.com> or Ravi 
Shankar 
<shankarr at ccsu.edu> .



***************
Ravi Shankar 
Poet-in-Residence
Assistant Professor
CCSU - English Dept.
860-832-2766
shankarr at ccsu.edu


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 24 16:26:38 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:26:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
Message-ID: <1cb.1a884aec.2d6d1b8e@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/23/04 5:34:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:

> On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry
>  > > 
>  > > The pretty, pampered poet in middle age
>  > > is telling us we've lost our sense of smell.
>  > > But my olfactory tube works rather well,
>  > > reading his latest offerings on the page.
>  > > 
>  > > -- James Cummins
>  > > 
>  > > from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.
>  > 
>  > > 
>  > Why hasn't anyone asked or guessed? Come on, David, who IS it Cummins
>  > mocks
>  > in the epigram.
>  > 
>  > Paul
>  > 
>  > 
>  Well, I've been wondering why no one took me up on this riddle, too.  One
>  more chance before I spill the beans. . . .
>  
>  Hint:  poet born in the 1920s.  The PBS special is, of course, a Bill 
Moyers
>  production.

Fooling With Words:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/foolingwithwords/main_poet.html
This program interviewed poets atthe Dodge Festival in 1998, so 
it can't be "Fooling with Words"

1995 "The Language of Life," a six-part special with Bill Moyers for the 
Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Produced autumn 1994 for broadcast summer, 
1995
Language of Life, was Moyers' even earlier series, produced
in 1994/95? .
Eighteen poets in the book and the PBS series:
Claribel Alegr?a
Jimmy Santiago Baca
Coleman Barks
Robert Bly
Marilyn Chin
Lucille Clifton
Victor Hern?ndez Cruz
Carolyn Forch?
Michael S. Harper
Robert Hass
Linda McCarriston
Sandra McPherson
David Mura
Naomi Shihab Nye
Adrienne Rich
Gary Snyder
Sekou Sundiata
Daisy Zamora

My guess was going to be Robt. Bly...
But I'm stumped.
(Cummins, I pretty sure, was the poet who
did a book of dramatic monologues by the
characters from the Perry Mason TV series.)
Finnegan



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb 24 18:29:18 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:29:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
In-Reply-To: <1cb.1a884aec.2d6d1b8e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC613A6E.6187%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Jim Finnegan's guess--Robert Bly--makes sense.  He's the right age and would
say something as stupid as that people have lost their sense of smell. But
"pretty and pampered"? Boy, I'm stumped.  I'll guess (based on the age and
"pretty" part)--

W. S. Merwin?

Paul



on 2/24/04 3:26 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/23/04 5:34:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:
> 
>> On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry
>>>> 
>>>> The pretty, pampered poet in middle age
>>>> is telling us we've lost our sense of smell.
>>>> But my olfactory tube works rather well,
>>>> reading his latest offerings on the page.
>>>> 
>>>> -- James Cummins
>>>> 
>>>> from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Why hasn't anyone asked or guessed? Come on, David, who IS it Cummins
>>> mocks
>>> in the epigram.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>  Well, I've been wondering why no one took me up on this riddle, too.  One>
more chance before I spill the beans. . . .
>>  
>>  Hint:  poet born in the 1920s.  The PBS special is, of course, a Bill
> Moyers
>>  production.
> 
> Fooling With Words:
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/foolingwithwords/main_poet.html
> This program interviewed poets atthe Dodge Festival in 1998, so
> it can't be "Fooling with Words"
> 
> 1995 "The Language of Life," a six-part special with Bill Moyers for the
> Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Produced autumn 1994 for broadcast
> summer, 
> 1995
> Language of Life, was Moyers' even earlier series, produced
> in 1994/95? .
> Eighteen poets in the book and the PBS series:
> Claribel Alegr?a
> Jimmy Santiago Baca
> Coleman Barks
> Robert Bly
> Marilyn Chin
> Lucille Clifton
> Victor Hern?ndez Cruz
> Carolyn Forch?
> Michael S. Harper
> Robert Hass
> Linda McCarriston
> Sandra McPherson
> David Mura
> Naomi Shihab Nye
> Adrienne Rich
> Gary Snyder
> Sekou Sundiata
> Daisy Zamora
> 
> My guess was going to be Robt. Bly...
> But I'm stumped.
> (Cummins, I pretty sure, was the poet who
> did a book of dramatic monologues by the
> characters from the Perry Mason TV series.)
> Finnegan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Feb 24 18:31:44 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:31:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
In-Reply-To: <1cb.1a884aec.2d6d1b8e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC613B00.6188%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Oh, heck. Here's another guess based on "pampered" since his daddy was the
Merrill of Merrill Lynch and the 1926 birthday--

James Merrill

PL


on 2/24/04 3:26 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/23/04 5:34:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:
> 
>> On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry
>>>> 
>>>> The pretty, pampered poet in middle age
>>>> is telling us we've lost our sense of smell.
>>>> But my olfactory tube works rather well,
>>>> reading his latest offerings on the page.
>>>> 
>>>> -- James Cummins
>>>> 
>>>> from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Why hasn't anyone asked or guessed? Come on, David, who IS it Cummins
>>> mocks
>>> in the epigram.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>  Well, I've been wondering why no one took me up on this riddle, too.  One
>>  more chance before I spill the beans. . . .
>>  
>>  Hint:  poet born in the 1920s.  The PBS special is, of course, a Bill
> Moyers
>>  production.
> 
> Fooling With Words:
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/foolingwithwords/main_poet.html
> This program interviewed poets atthe Dodge Festival in 1998, so
> it can't be "Fooling with Words"
> 
> 1995 "The Language of Life," a six-part special with Bill Moyers for the
> Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Produced autumn 1994 for broadcast
> summer, 
> 1995
> Language of Life, was Moyers' even earlier series, produced
> in 1994/95? .
> Eighteen poets in the book and the PBS series:
> Claribel Alegr?a
> Jimmy Santiago Baca
> Coleman Barks
> Robert Bly
> Marilyn Chin
> Lucille Clifton
> Victor Hern?ndez Cruz
> Carolyn Forch?
> Michael S. Harper
> Robert Hass
> Linda McCarriston
> Sandra McPherson
> David Mura
> Naomi Shihab Nye
> Adrienne Rich
> Gary Snyder
> Sekou Sundiata
> Daisy Zamora
> 
> My guess was going to be Robt. Bly...
> But I'm stumped.
> (Cummins, I pretty sure, was the poet who
> did a book of dramatic monologues by the
> characters from the Perry Mason TV series.)
> Finnegan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From Cadaly at aol.com  Tue Feb 24 20:20:14 2004
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:20:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] UCLA -- Los Angeles
Message-ID: <96.44689af.2d6d524e@aol.com>

Free Public Programs at the Hammer Museum this week feature artists EDGAR 
ARCENEAUX, ROBERT GOBER, and electronic literature authors DEENA LARSEN and 
GENIWATE.

___________________________________

Gallery Talk

EDGAR ARCENEAUX

Thursday, February 26
6pm

Edgar Arcenaux discusses his current Hammer Project exhibition, Drawings of 
Removal. The exhibition closes this Sunday - don't miss this opportunity to 
hear Arceneaux speak about his remarkable installation that uses the Museum's 
gallery as an active studio-space for this ongoing work in progress.

___________________________________


UCLA Department of Art Lecture Series

ROBERT GOBER

Thursday, February 26
7pm

Acclaimed sculptor Robert Gober has been exhibiting his work internationally 
to great critical acclaim. He represented the United States at the2001 Venice 
Biennale, and has had large scale exhibitions at The Geffen Contemporary, 
Museum of Contemporary Art, Los Angeles; the Dia Center for the Arts, New York; 
and the Walker Art Center, Minneapolis; among many others.

This UCLA Visiting Artist Lecture is made possible through the generous 
support of the William D. Feldman Family Endowed Art Lecture Fund.

___________________________________


Hammer Readings: hyper_text

DEENA LARSEN and GENIWATE

Friday, February 27
7pm

Deena Larsen is the author of two interactive narratives, "Marble Springs" 
and "Samples: Nine Viscous Little Hypertexts." 
Geniwate lives in Melbourne, Australia. Her collaborative project Poetry 
Machines, a website joining programmers and writers, is scheduled for release this 
month. She has served on the Australian Network of Art and Technology and 
her work has been exhibited at Brooklyn Academy of Music in New York.

hyper_text: Explorations in Electronic Literature is presented in 
collaboration with The Electronic Literature Organization (www.eliterature.org)

___________________________________


All events are FREE OF CHARGE

Reservations are not required 
Seating is on a first-come, first-served basis

Easy parking below the Museum, $3

For more information please call 310.443.7000 
or visit www.hammer.ucla.edu.

MUSEUM HOURS: 
Tue, Wed, Fri, Sat 11am-7pm
Thu, 11am?9pm
Sun, 11am?5pm
closed Mondays

FREE MUSEUM ADMISSION EVERY THURSDAY


UCLA HAMMER MUSEUM
10899 Wilshire Blvd at Westwood Blvd
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040224/ada62fa2/attachment.html>

From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Feb 24 20:33:57 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:33:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
Message-ID: <1d4.1ae3a6ff.2d6d5585@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/24/2004 6:43:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

> I'll guess (based on the age and
> "pretty" part)--
> 
> W. S. Merwin?
> 
Paul, 
Merwin has always been poetry's Pretty Boy. 
The other thing that is "flattering" about Cummins'
poem is that the subject of this poem, if we're
to believe David, was born in the 1920s & is being
described as middle-aged. 
Cummins is definitely raising the bar and giving 
hope to all by extending middle age by a couple
decades.
Finnegan
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040224/8820ece3/attachment.html>

From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Tue Feb 24 20:48:23 2004
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:48:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
References: <1d4.1ae3a6ff.2d6d5585@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c3fb41$74291000$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Thom Gunn?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JforJames at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 8:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Guess Who


  In a message dated 2/24/2004 6:43:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:


    I'll guess (based on the age and
    "pretty" part)--

    W. S. Merwin?


  Paul, 
  Merwin has always been poetry's Pretty Boy. 
  The other thing that is "flattering" about Cummins'
  poem is that the subject of this poem, if we're
  to believe David, was born in the 1920s & is being
  described as middle-aged. 
  Cummins is definitely raising the bar and giving 
  hope to all by extending middle age by a couple
  decades.
  Finnegan 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040224/7209b052/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Feb 24 21:26:53 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:26:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who the Winner Is
In-Reply-To: <1cb.1a884aec.2d6d1b8e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC61640D.6F5C%grahamd@ripon.edu>

The mystery poet was W. S. Merwin, yes.  If Jim Finnegan's dates on the
Moyers shows are correct, then maybe Cummins' poem was mis-dated; I'm not
sure.

Cummins does simplify the remarks Merwin made about the loss of smell, but
it is an epigram, after all. I remember him speaking quite reasonably about
how supermarkets (in contrast to old-fashioned markets) tend to deaden the
senses, with canned music, fragant items wrapped in plastic, lots of
artificial scents in the air, waxed fruit, etc.  All quite true, seems to
me.

Pretty Merwin has always been, but I'm not exactly sure "pampered" fits--I
mean, didn't he eke out a freelance existence for decades instead of going
the professorial route?  I'm not sure he was ever all that wealthy.

Your prize, Paul, is the following (smelly?) poem:

Fly

I have been cruel to a fat pigeon
Because he would not fly
All he wanted was to live like a friendly old man

He had let himself become a wreck filthy and confiding
Wild for his food beating the cat off the garbage
Ignoring his mate perpetually snotty at the beak
Smelling waddling having to be
Carried up the ladder at the night content

Fly I said throwing him into the air
But he would drop and run back expecting to be fed
I said it again and again throwing him up
As he got worse
He let himself be picked up every time
Until I found him in the dovecote dead
Of the needless efforts

So that is what I am

Pondering his eye that could not
Conceive that I a creature to run from

I who have always believed too much in words

--W. S. Merwin


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

> 
>> On Watching a PBS Special on Poetry
>>>> 
>>>> The pretty, pampered poet in middle age
>>>> is telling us we've lost our sense of smell.
>>>> But my olfactory tube works rather well,
>>>> reading his latest offerings on the page.
>>>> 
>>>> -- James Cummins
>>>> 
>>>> from The Epigrammatist, Vol. I, No. 1, 1990.

>> 
>> Hint:  poet born in the 1920s.  The PBS special is, of course, a Bill
> Moyers
>> production.
> 
> Fooling With Words:
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/foolingwithwords/main_poet.html
> This program interviewed poets atthe Dodge Festival in 1998, so
> it can't be "Fooling with Words"
> 
> 1995 "The Language of Life," a six-part special with Bill Moyers for the
> Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Produced autumn 1994 for broadcast
> summer, 
> 1995
> Language of Life, was Moyers' even earlier series, produced
> in 1994/95? .


> Jim Finnegan's guess--Robert Bly--makes sense.  He's the right age and would
say something as stupid as that people have lost their sense of smell. But
"pretty and pampered"? Boy, I'm stumped.  I'll guess (based on the age and
"pretty" part)--

W. S. Merwin?

Paul





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Feb 24 21:49:54 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:49:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
Message-ID: <ea.47d6ec30.2d6d6752@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/24/2004 7:49:38 PM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
> 
> Thom Gunn?
> 
He ain't pretty.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040224/3f0ac031/attachment.html>

From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Feb 24 21:53:21 2004
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:53:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who the Winner Is
Message-ID: <c1.3d23bd78.2d6d6821@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/24/2004 8:25:46 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> Cummins does simplify the remarks Merwin made about the loss of smell, but
> it is an epigram, after all. I remember him speaking quite reasonably about
> how supermarkets (in contrast to old-fashioned markets) tend to deaden the
> senses, with canned music, fragant items wrapped in plastic, lots of
> artificial scents in the air, waxed fruit, etc.  All quite true, seems to
> me.
> 
I kind of suspected Merwin, and the poem may refer to an earlier than 1990 
PBS show.  I pretty much gave up on reviewing Merwin after I read one of his 
poems complaining about the soullessness of airports.  I mean, who cares?  Even 
the New Orleans airport is purely functional, despite being named after Louis 
A.  He might as well have complained about the soullessness of the Lincoln 
Tunnel.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040224/a19d2d22/attachment.html>

From grahamd at ripon.edu  Tue Feb 24 22:09:58 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:09:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwinner
In-Reply-To: <c1.3d23bd78.2d6d6821@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BC616E26.6F63%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Merwin blazed his path across my consciousness when I was starting out, and
I guess I will always honor him for that.  Plus I love many of his
translations.  I'm still very fond of the work of the *Lice* era, though I
don't dare re-read it very often.

What's put me off WSM, especially in later years, is that this sensualist
often gives surprisingly little descriptive texture in his poems.  Despite
place names and other particulars, they seem to be set in the library.  Even
his nature poems can seem pale & bookish to me, with none of the sweat and
grit that someone like Frost or Pattiann Rogers can achieve.


This January

So after weeks of rain
at night the winter stars
that much farther in heaven
without our having seen them
in far light are still forming
the heavy elements
that when the stars are gone
fly up as dust finer
by many times than a hair
and recognize each other
in the dark traveling
at great speed and becoming
out bodies in our time
looking up after rain
in the cold night together

--WSM, *The Pupil*, 2001.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


I kind of suspected Merwin, and the poem may refer to an earlier than 1990
PBS show.  I pretty much gave up on reviewing Merwin after I read one of his
poems complaining about the soullessness of airports.  I mean, who cares?
Even the New Orleans airport is purely functional, despite being named after
Louis A.  He might as well have complained about the soullessness of the
Lincoln Tunnel. 




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Feb 25 10:46:03 2004
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:46:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paterson
Message-ID: <7d.478ac725.2d6e1d3b@aol.com>

http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=90982004
Shining Light at the end of the tunnel 
    Sarah Jones 

Don Paterson is a guilty man. Winning the Whitbread Poetry Prize earlier this 
month and the TS Eliot Prize last week for his most recent collection, 
Landing Light, has meant a healthy boost to his earnings of ?15,000 in the space of 
13 days. If he goes on to win the overall Whitbread Prize on Tuesday he could 
be in the black to the tune of ?40,000. 

Yet when I meet Paterson at his Kirriemuir home, he does not exude joy, or 
even an air of financial relief, just one of utter guilt. "It?s a funny thing, 
this business," he explains with a self-conscious grin. "The poetry community 
is so close-knit. Most poets have their peers as close friends, because 
everyone else thinks it?s a bit of an odd thing to do. But that means that when these 
prizes come round, there aren?t thousands of people up for them. So if you 
win, guilt is always a feature." 



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Feb 25 10:50:17 2004
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:50:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who
In-Reply-To: <1d4.1ae3a6ff.2d6d5585@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BC622059.619C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/24/04 7:33 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/24/2004 6:43:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
> 
>> I'll guess (based on the age and
>> "pretty" part)--
>> 
>> W. S. Merwin?
> 
> Paul, 
> Merwin has always been poetry's Pretty Boy.
> The other thing that is "flattering" about Cummins'
> poem is that the subject of this poem, if we're
> to believe David, was born in the 1920s & is being
> described as middle-aged.
> Cummins is definitely raising the bar and giving
> hope to all by extending middle age by a couple
> decades.
> Finnegan 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. How long ago was this guy or gal on
PBS?

Paul 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040225/9a65edcf/attachment.html>

From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Feb 25 11:48:17 2004
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:48:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who the Winner Is
References: <c1.3d23bd78.2d6d6821@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003701c3fbbf$2b460400$cedcf63f@Helen>

I read somewhere that collectively speaking - our ability to distinguish various odors is diminishing - 
maybe it was in that book A History of the Senses - author's name forgotten. Also, our ability to remember names . . . .
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 9:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Guess Who the Winner Is


  In a message dated 2/24/2004 8:25:46 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 


    Cummins does simplify the remarks Merwin made about the loss of smell, but
    it is an epigram, after all. I remember him speaking quite reasonably about
    how supermarkets (in contrast to old-fashioned markets) tend to deaden the
    senses, with canned music, fragant items wrapped in plastic, lots of
    artificial scents in the air, waxed fruit, etc.  All quite true, seems to
    me.


  I kind of suspected Merwin, and the poem may refer to an earlier than 1990 PBS show.  I pretty much gave up on reviewing Merwin after I read one of his poems complaining about the soullessness of airports.  I mean, who cares?  Even the New Orleans airport is purely functional, despite being named after Louis A.  He might as well have complained about the soullessness of the Lincoln Tunnel. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040225/69eb1e6b/attachment.html>

From mandolin at mac.com  Wed Feb 25 13:14:38 2004
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:14:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guess Who the Winner Is
Message-ID: <16409460.1077732878372.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, February 25, 2004, at 11:48AM, Helen Ruggieri <hruggier at localnet.com> wrote:

I read somewhere that collectively speaking - our ability to distinguish various odors is diminishing -  maybe it was in that book A History of the Senses - author's name forgotten. Also, our ability to remember names . . . .		
			
			
Diane Ackerman's Natural History of the Senses?

Anyway, here's a recent piece linking reduction of the importance of smell in some primates to the development of 3-color vision:
			
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-01/plos-pts011204.php


I used to read Merwin and slowly stopped being interested, but recently I can't even read the things  I used to like. They all seem somehow prefigurings of his dreadful translation of Sir Gawain.  I much prefer both John Gardner's and Marie Boroff's on the days I can't make myself get through my old Tolkien edition--which is more and more often, sad to say.

-----
Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. 
http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium


From anny.ballardini at tin.it  Thu Feb 26 08:26:26 2004
From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:26:26 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner
Message-ID: <005d01c3fc6c$23206920$65737450@yourpk9x5fuc06>

Dearest All,

here is my mail with the latest updates on the Poets' Corner. Among the new Authors: Carol Rumens, Martin John Walker, Bill Allegrezza, Chris Murray, Douglas Barbour. New poems by Barry Alpert, Riccarda Turrina, a new Schmaiku by Al Aronowitz, and a new poem by Nessa O' Mahony. I finally succeeded in putting online the introduction of Mark Weiss to Jos? Kozer with his translation of the poem: Ultima voluntad - Last Will and Testament; those who have translated poems know of the difficulty of matching two languages that belong to the Latin and Anglo-Saxon group, the first is usually verbose, the latter cuts short; thus to have a translated poem into English which respects the exact format and number of lines of the original Spanish one, is a true masterpiece: Mark and I tried several times to get it online as it is, and found a solution.
And three reviews in Italian by me of 3 collections of poems translated into Italian, by Ruth Fainlight, Cees Nooteboom and Kjell Espmark. 

Here are the direct links:

NEW POETS:

Carol Rumens
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=79

Martin John Walker
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=80

William Allegrezza:
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=81

Chris Murray
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=82

Douglas Barbour
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=83


POETS ON POETS:

Jos? Kozer introduced and translated by Mark Weiss
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=365


NEW POEMS:

Talk, Lars von Trier - by Barry Alpert
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=390

Barry Alpert's updated Bio
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=74

L'abito della festa - di Riccarda Turrina
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=407

Schmaiky #11: Headless Ralphy - by Al Aronowitz
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=171

York Child - by Nessa O'Mahony
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=417


REVIEWS IN ITALIAN (by me)

Ruth Fainlight: La Verit? Sulla Sibilla
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=418

Kjell Espmark: L'Altra Vita
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=419

Cees Nooteboom: Le Porte Della Notte
http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=420


My thank you to all who have collaborated, and have made this possible. I am adding the link of the main index:
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content

My statement is to be found in my signature, best

Anny Ballardini
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

Prayer

Whatever happens. Whatever
what is is is what
I want. Only that. But that.
Galway Kinnell
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20040226/8f4066a3/attachment.html>

From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Thu Feb 26 21:39:00 2004
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:39:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] contact info Joe Duemer
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040226203805.0209aa58@mail.ilstu.edu>

Can someone help me find Joe's email, please?

Gabe



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Feb 29 22:57:49 2004
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:57:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] At a certain age
Message-ID: <BC6810DD.70FD%grahamd@ripon.edu>

At A Certain Age

We wanted to confess our sins but there were no takers.
White clouds refused to accept them, and the wind
Was too busy visiting sea after sea.
We did not succeed in interesting the animals.
Dogs, disappointed, expected an order,
A cat, as always immoral, was falling asleep.
A person seemingly very close
Did not care to hear of things long past.
Conversations with friends over vodka or coffee
Ought not be prolonged beyond the first sign of boredom.
It would be humiliating to pay by the hour
A man with a diploma, just for listening.
Churches. Perhaps churches. But to confess there what?
That we used to see ourselves as handsome and noble
Yet later in our place an ugly toad
Half-opens its thick eyelid
And one sees clearly: "That's me."


--Czeslaw Milosz. *Facing The River*. 1995



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================