From JforJames Thu Apr 1 08:38:25 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:38:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <19f.228fbb08.2d9d7551@aol.com> Motto In the dark times Will there also be singing? Yes, there will also be singing About the dark times. --Bertolt Brecht Bad Time for Poetry Yes, I know only the happy man Is liked. His voice Is good to hear. His face is handsome. The crippled tree in the yard Shows that the soil is poor, yet The passers-by abuse it for being crippled And rightly so. The green boats and the dancing sails on the Sound Go unseen. Of it all I see only the torn nets of the fishermen. Why do I only record That a village woman aged forty walks with a stoop? The girls' breasts Are as warm as ever. In my poems a rhyme Would seem to me almost insolent. Inside me contend Delight at the apple tree in blossom And horror at the house-painter's speeches. But only the second Drives me to my desk. --Bertolt Brecht -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Thu Apr 1 08:49:10 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 08:49:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems In-Reply-To: <19f.228fbb08.2d9d7551@aol.com> References: <19f.228fbb08.2d9d7551@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040401084834.X78003@kpaul.spinweb.net> Loved the first one. It's circular almost, but it sets a mood, I think... Thanks, kpaul http://www.mallasch.com/mug/ On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Motto > > In the dark times > Will there also be singing? > Yes, there will also be singing > About the dark times. > > --Bertolt Brecht > > > Bad Time for Poetry > > Yes, I know only the happy man > Is liked. His voice > Is good to hear. His face is handsome. > > The crippled tree in the yard > Shows that the soil is poor, yet > The passers-by abuse it for being crippled > And rightly so. > > The green boats and the dancing sails on the Sound > Go unseen. Of it all > I see only the torn nets of the fishermen. > Why do I only record > That a village woman aged forty walks with a stoop? > The girls' breasts > Are as warm as ever. > > In my poems a rhyme > Would seem to me almost insolent. > > Inside me contend > Delight at the apple tree in blossom > And horror at the house-painter's speeches. > But only the second > Drives me to my desk. > > --Bertolt Brecht > From Djoysgrape Thu Apr 1 09:30:49 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:30:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <148.25e9e9e9.2d9d8199@aol.com> Jim: these are wonderful poems. There's another Brecht poem that has a line about him hoping that during dark times the glow of his cigar will not go out. Do you remember this one? Was it "IN the Winter of Cities?" Doug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet Thu Apr 1 10:32:14 2004 From: adead_poet (jason huff) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:32:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] George Meredith Message-ID: I'm looking for George Meredith's poem "Effort at Speech." I did a google search and couldn't find it. Can anyone post it for me? Thanks, jason _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From bentley Thu Apr 1 07:20:53 2004 From: bentley (Bentley) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:20:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question References: <108.2dce7ab1.2d9b5662@aol.com> Message-ID: <005301c417e3$c8e607b0$e3622745@S0028976576> As someone with very limited funds, I have a question for any of you: If you had only $50 to spend on poetry journals/ magazines, which would you get and why? Thank you, Bentley From JforJames Thu Apr 1 11:02:10 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:02:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: In a message dated 4/1/04 8:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, kpaul at mallasch.com writes: > Loved the first one. It's circular almost, but it sets a mood, In my Brecht collected it seems he has four poems with that same title "Motto." (That's another example making things strange) I actually encountered that poem recently because an alternative theatre group was using in the publicity...unfortunately I missed the production, so I can't say if it worked... http://www.goethe.de/uk/was/2_2003/brechtpoems.htm Finnegan From wjbat Thu Apr 1 11:20:16 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:20:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] George Meredith In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <760B3A62-83F8-11D8-B08B-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Thursday, April 1, 2004, at 10:32 AM, jason huff wrote: > I'm looking for George Meredith's poem "Effort at Speech." I did a > google search and couldn't find it. Can anyone post it for me? Try searching for *William* Meredith. http://camel2.conncoll.edu/meredith/works/volumes-of-poetry/effort.htm Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. --Rumi From Thom424 Thu Apr 1 11:22:31 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:22:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] George Meredith Message-ID: <0930174B.7EC92A10.001A46F6@aol.com> try william merideth From kpaul Thu Apr 1 12:16:42 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:16:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question In-Reply-To: <005301c417e3$c8e607b0$e3622745@S0028976576> References: <108.2dce7ab1.2d9b5662@aol.com> <005301c417e3$c8e607b0$e3622745@S0028976576> Message-ID: <20040401121607.Q44606@kpaul.spinweb.net> MUGround zine because it's free (online) and has some unknown yet up and coming poets ;) http://www.mallasch.com/mug/ /end plug -kpaul On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Bentley wrote: > As someone with very limited funds, I have a question for any of you: > > If you had only $50 to spend on poetry journals/ magazines, which would you > get and why? > > Thank you, > > Bentley > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Thu Apr 1 12:16:47 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:16:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <122.2d5baef8.2d9da87f@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/04 9:31:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Djoysgrape at aol.com writes: > Do you remember this one? Was it "IN the Winter of Cities?" Doug, I'll look for it...I have a big collected Brecht of which I have two complaints. There are 25 or so different translators contributing, which is fine, but the book doesn't seem to identify who translated what poem. And the book, which I bought via the internet from a used bookstore, is obviously from a public library in New Jersey, yet the book is not stamped 'discard/withdrawn', so I imagine it was swiped or never returned at some point. I end up feeling guilty every time I open it. I think I may have to send a small donation to that library to assuage my guilt at possessing possibly stolen goods. Finnegan From kpaul Thu Apr 1 12:21:21 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:21:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems In-Reply-To: <122.2d5baef8.2d9da87f@aol.com> References: <122.2d5baef8.2d9da87f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040401122107.K44606@kpaul.spinweb.net> Ah, the tell tale book of poesie ;) -kpaul On Thu, 1 Apr 2004 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/1/04 9:31:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Djoysgrape at aol.com writes: > > > Do you remember this one? Was it "IN the Winter of Cities?" > > Doug, I'll look for it...I have a big collected Brecht of which I have > two complaints. There are 25 or so different translators contributing, > which is fine, but the book doesn't seem to identify who translated > what poem. And the book, which I bought via the internet from > a used bookstore, is obviously from a public library in New Jersey, > yet the book is not stamped 'discard/withdrawn', so I imagine it > was swiped or never returned at some point. I end up feeling guilty > every time I open it. I think I may have to send a small donation to that > library to assuage my guilt at possessing possibly stolen goods. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anastasios Thu Apr 1 12:31:10 2004 From: anastasios (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:31:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems In-Reply-To: <19f.228fbb08.2d9d7551@aol.com> References: <19f.228fbb08.2d9d7551@aol.com> Message-ID: <1080840670.406c51debbfdb@www.lostbaklava.com> TRANSLATOR(S)????? Quoting JforJames at aol.com: > Motto > > In the dark times > Will there also be singing? > Yes, there will also be singing > About the dark times. > > --Bertolt Brecht > > > Bad Time for Poetry > > Yes, I know only the happy man > Is liked. His voice > Is good to hear. His face is handsome. > > The crippled tree in the yard > Shows that the soil is poor, yet > The passers-by abuse it for being crippled > And rightly so. > > The green boats and the dancing sails on the Sound > Go unseen. Of it all > I see only the torn nets of the fishermen. > Why do I only record > That a village woman aged forty walks with a stoop? > The girls' breasts > Are as warm as ever. > > In my poems a rhyme > Would seem to me almost insolent. > > Inside me contend > Delight at the apple tree in blossom > And horror at the house-painter's speeches. > But only the second > Drives me to my desk. > > --Bertolt Brecht > From jnewberry1974 Thu Apr 1 12:38:54 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:38:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question In-Reply-To: <20040401121607.Q44606@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <20040401173854.23317.qmail@web11608.mail.yahoo.com> Hmmmm....just a few off the top of my head-- I like Image, Ploughshares, Five Points, Permafrost, and Bayou. Online mags I like include storySouth, the Cortland Review, and the Alsop Review. But that's just me... Jeff Newberry --- kpaul mallasch wrote: > MUGround zine because it's free (online) and has > some unknown yet up and > coming poets ;) > > http://www.mallasch.com/mug/ > > /end plug > > -kpaul > > On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Bentley wrote: > > > As someone with very limited funds, I have a > question for any of you: > > > > If you had only $50 to spend on poetry journals/ > magazines, which would you > > get and why? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Bentley > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From anny.ballardini Thu Apr 1 12:40:15 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:40:15 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] YAWP + Halvard References: Message-ID: <009301c41810$64ac66e0$45607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> A very very nice story, thank you Halvard, Anny From: "Halvard Johnson" Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 1:22 AM > > Lynda and I got to Chicago on Wednesday, much too early really as far as > AWP (Alotta Weird People?) was concerned, but had time to wander > far enough afield to find a Chicago Symphony Orchestra concert scheduled > for Thursday night that put thoughts of Dana Gioia far out to sea. Bought > a couple tickets, made dinner reservations for four at Russian Tea Time > (slightly to the right of Orchestra Hall--nowadays called Symphony Center?) > the next evening at six (figuring we'd find some other two to go with us) had > a bite to eat, and retired to our 13th floor chambers to recuperate from our > overland journey by cat through the wilds of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, > and, yes, Indiana. > > Next morning, called Jim Cervantes and Ellie and demanded they get up and > go to breakfast with us. Nah, Jim's up at four no matter what the time > zone--but we did have breakfast with them and talked them into dining a la > Russe with us. After breakfast, Lynda and I tried to attend a 10:30 panel (The > Poet and Political Responsibility) but couldn't get near the door even. So, we did > the Bookfair, once over lightly. We did, though, make one at one (a panel > on Fiction by Collage, where four or five presenters read papers that were > so coherent and well-organized that the most interesting question afterwards > was something like "Why did all of you treat such an interesting and untraditional > form of fiction in such a linear, traditional way?" > > After dinner with Jim and Ellie (our most extravagent meal of the trip), Lynda > and I perched ourselves high in the gallery, where I'd spent many happy evenings > way back in the early sixties, and gave ourselves over to the CSO, to Franck, > Chausson, and Prokofiev. > > On Friday, having learned our lesson the day before, Lynda and I got ourselves > seats for the Artaud "Poetics of Cruelty" panel a good twenty-five minutes before > its nine o'clock start time. So, natch, at nine the panel was postponed until > one, which I couldn't make because Jim C. and I were signing copies of > *Changing the Subject* at the Red Hen Press table around that time. > > At six, eight of us squeezed into a booth at The Big Downtown and, when I > asked for a report on Gioia's keynote speech found that none of the eight > of us had attended, though one was able to give a second-hand report, which > was pretty much the same as David G's. > > The rest of the evening was given to the Fiction Collective 2's anniversary > reading at a books and bar sort of place a few blocks south on Michigan. > Lynda (her FC2 book is due out next spring) read first, and let me tell you > is a hard act to follow, as the next twenty or thirty readers (just kidding, > there were only fifteen or sixteen) soon found out. > > Saturday, for us, was check-out day, so we emptied our room by ten or so > and schlepped everything over to the garage across Wabash St., where our > little Honda had been stabled. After lunch we indulged in one last panel > (The Avant Garde in the Classroom). And then we were off--well, almost > off. Climbing into the car, I found I was missing a credit card, and--miracle > of miracle--figured out where I must have left it, dashed back to the Palmer > House, retrieved it, and then dashed back to the car where Lynda was > waiting. > > Saturday evening and Sunday we spent with the kids and their kids down > in Frankfort, Illinois, and hit the road again on Monday. Sunday we all > took the kids to one of those children's farms, where kids get acquainted > with animals. No one seemed to find it strange that along the wall opposite > to the pens where the animals were kept were giant, colorful posters > displaying and explaining various cuts of meat. > > Chicago weather was variable--cool to warm to blowy--mostly with > that high ceiling of clouds I remember hanging there month after month > during the springtimes of my Chicago years. > > I found it strange that the elevators at The Parker House (no, I won't tell > you the story about the elevator guy and the MLA professors) didn't > stop at the fifth floor, and that the doors in the stairwells wouldn't open > on the fifth floor. > > I also found it strange that no one else seemed to find it strange that > The Parker House had a thirteenth floor. But, hey, maybe it's just me. > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > The Sonnet Project: > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html > > > > { Yesterday I returned from the AWP conference in Chicago, which was one of > { the biggest ever. Over 4000 in attendance, I heard, and it sure seemed so. > { I was physically unable to wedge myself into a couple sessions that were > { overstufffed--among them a panel on which I had hoped to hear Bob Hicok > { read. I believe the fire marshall even shut down a couple sessions for > { dangerous overcrowding. > { > { Since the nature of this beast is that no one can attend anything close to > { all the events, I'd love to hear others' reports on the poetry portions of > { the show. I missed any number of cool-sounding events, myself. > { > { Highlights for me included a panel on Performing The Poem, which was > { appropriately lively and well performed, featuring Molly Peacock, Timothy > { Liu, Patricia Smith, and others. My old teacher Madeline DeFrees gave a > { nice reading at a Copper Canyon event, too--she's 80 million years old and > { going strong. Marvin Bell, at the same event, gave a reading in which he > { seemed to be impersonating a dead man, not just reading about one. > { > { I didn't much care for Dana Gioia's keynote address, in part because I've > { heard him give a version of this speech before. Heard wildly divergent > { reviews of his talk from various folk, which I suppose goes to show that > { Dana G remains a big lightning rod. > { > { Essentially Gioia told his own life story, rags to poetry riches, followed > { by some remarks on the great works he hopes to do at NEA. Well performed, > { but rather old news, at least for me. > { > { It *was* a trifle odd to have a keynoter who is famous for knocking the MFA > { system speaking to a room full of little but MFAers, I thought. > { > { If you're in Chicago any time soon I *highly* recommend the Rembrandt show > { at the Art Institute. It, too, was overcrowded, though. > { > { At the book fair this year I filled a bag, as usual, with new book > { purchases, trades, and freebies. It will take a good while to make my way > { through them all, and I'll probably not be able to resist posting a few > { samples from time to time. > { > { Among other items I picked up (and hereby recommend) a collaboration by two > { very familiar names, Jim Cervantes & Hal Johnson, *Changing Subjects* (Red > { Hen Press). This consists of a "spontaneous collaboration" of a series of > { poems posted to a listserv a while back. A very interesting poetic > { cyberconversation. > { > { Cynthia Huntington's *The Radiant* (Four Way Books, 2003) was the other book > { I went looking for first, having seen some poems I liked online. > { > { Here's a sample. > { > { > { Balch Hill > { > { > { The birds were talking about me, passing ideas > { back and forth along the branches. > { They said I had been sick too long, > { that I walked among the trees like a tall stranger, > { and that where I put my foot was not certain. > { They said there was a lightness of uncertainty, and a sliding, > { as if my weight would not fall evenly on the earth, > { that my head never moved to the left or to the right, > { my chin held down, not looking up - oh that one, > { I heard them finally agree: she has been sick too long. > { > { The birds were talking to hear themselves agree on anything, > { to make a convention out of the rowdiness of June. > { They noted unbirdlike intrusions, > { to recall that they alone were birds. > { I went on. I was not tired. I could walk forever, > { if forever lived in that town, but the path ended > { on a steep hillside where apple trees grew wild > { and I could see four mountains, and the clock tower > { rising above the college library, then the highway and the river, > { and Vermont in the distance like another country. > { > { The birds were talking to put me into the ground, > { to sing me down from their sky. They said that > { a broken thing must be ended. My feet bruised the fallen > { apples under the leaves, and overhead the treetops > { were circling in air. But when I raised my head to answer them, > { the wind blew in among the trees, and the flock scattered, > { > { disappearing, becoming nothing, just specks on the sky, > { distant, like ash blown up from a fire. I stood and sniffed > { the spice of the apples, under last year's leaves, > { their heavy fragrance sweet, like the sweetest taste of ruin. > { > { --Cynthia Huntington > { > { > { > { > { ==================================================== > { David Graham > { grahamd at ripon.edu > { Home Page: > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > { Poetry Library: > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > { ==================================================== > { > { > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From MillB Thu Apr 1 13:12:05 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:12:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: <50.2a27f718.2d9db575@aol.com> I rotate subscriptions: So if I had $50 every year, I would subscribe to four one year, then a different four or five the next year and so on and so on. Also, I buy single copies, trade with friends, and use the library! Witness, Georgia Review, Gettysburg Review, Sweanee Review, Kenyon Review, Tampa Review, Antioch, Beloit, Brilliant Corners, Crazy Horse, GW Review, Laurel Review, New Letters, Nimrod, Room of One's Own. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reneea Thu Apr 1 13:22:19 2004 From: reneea (Renee Ashley) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:22:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question References: <108.2dce7ab1.2d9b5662@aol.com> <005301c417e3$c8e607b0$e3622745@S0028976576> Message-ID: <01b001c41816$4569b840$da66fea9@Barnette> Well, these are my choices for today; they might be different tomorrow: Kenyon Review Poetry -- with the editorial changes, this is getting really interesting American Letters & Commentary 3rd Bed Jubilat Redivider -- I just found this at AWP and it's great Verse -- I love this, but it's hard to get. I ordered a subscription and never received a copy. But if you can get it, it's wonderful. and Tiferet: A Journal of Spiritual Literature Renee From FanwoodJEL Thu Apr 1 13:28:10 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:28:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: <06730547.72F27325.0B0E6811@aol.com> Great list. My own favorite journal in the land is New Orleans Review. Sophia Stone has a sophisticated eye and ear. I second Third Bed, and raise you Notre Dame Review. Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 4/1/2004 1:22:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, reneea at verizon.net writes: > Well, these are my choices for today; they might be different tomorrow: > > Kenyon Review > Poetry -- with the editorial changes, this is getting really interesting > American Letters & Commentary > 3rd Bed > Jubilat > Redivider -- I just found this at AWP and it's great > Verse -- I love this, but it's hard to get. I ordered a subscription and > never received a copy. But if you can get it, it's > wonderful. > and > Tiferet: A Journal of Spiritual Literature > > Renee From Djoysgrape Thu Apr 1 13:35:41 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:35:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: I would recommend one good, traditional journal (Georgia Review, Southern Review, etc.), and one that takes more risks (Kenyon Review, Ploughshares, etc.) You should be able to afford them both for $50. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Thu Apr 1 13:39:41 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:39:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <105.42f5f1b7.2d9dbbed@aol.com> I know what you mean. Willette is good for the collected. There's a selected that Grove press published -- don't know if it's still in print -- with excellent, idiomatic translations. I recommend Marc Blitzstein for Threepenny Opera, although Willette's good too. From Threepenny: Blizstein: The world is mean and man's uncouth I'm sad to say I tell the truth Willette: The world is mean and man's a shit And that is all there is to it. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 1 13:39:44 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:39:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <1d7.1d91c9c2.2d9dbbf0@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/04 12:31:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, anastasios at lostbaklava.com writes: > TRANSLATOR(S)????? > quoting myself... In a message dated 4/1/04 12:17:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > I have a big collected Brecht of which I have > two complaints. There are 25 or so different translators contributing, > which is fine, but the book doesn't seem to identify who translated > what poem. From antrobin Thu Apr 1 14:15:51 2004 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 11:15:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question In-Reply-To: <50.2a27f718.2d9db575@aol.com> Message-ID: <003601c4181d$c5bbbd70$233d1c40@Emily> I would recommend The Canary, too. Tony -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of MillB at aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:12 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] journal question I rotate subscriptions: So if I had $50 every year, I would subscribe to four one year, then a different four or five the next year and so on and so on. Also, I buy single copies, trade with friends, and use the library! Witness, Georgia Review, Gettysburg Review, Sweanee Review, Kenyon Review, Tampa Review, Antioch, Beloit, Brilliant Corners, Crazy Horse, GW Review, Laurel Review, New Letters, Nimrod, Room of One's Own. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet Thu Apr 1 14:52:41 2004 From: adead_poet (jason huff) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:52:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: I'm pretty poor, but I try to keep my subscription to Poetry and The Hudson Review going. And then a third or fourth one if I can afford it. Try Tar River Poetry or The Texas Review. jason _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From bobgrumman Thu Apr 1 16:04:21 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:04:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question References: <108.2dce7ab1.2d9b5662@aol.com> <005301c417e3$c8e607b0$e3622745@S0028976576> Message-ID: <00f001c4182c$e97f53c0$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > As someone with very limited funds, I have a question for any of you: > > If you had only $50 to spend on poetry journals/ magazines, which would you > get and why? > > Thank you, > > Bentley Let me be the first and probably the only one posting to New-Poetry to suggest to you that it would depend on what kind of poetry you are most interested in. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Apr 1 16:20:23 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:20:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <122.2d5baef8.2d9da87f@aol.com> Message-ID: <011801c4182f$26c83100$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > Do you remember this one? Was it "IN the Winter of Cities?" > > Doug, I'll look for it...I have a big collected Brecht of which I have > two complaints. There are 25 or so different translators contributing, > which is fine, but the book doesn't seem to identify who translated > what poem. And the book, which I bought via the internet from > a used bookstore, is obviously from a public library in New Jersey, > yet the book is not stamped 'discard/withdrawn', so I imagine it > was swiped or never returned at some point. I end up feeling guilty > every time I open it. I think I may have to send a small donation to that > library to assuage my guilt at possessing possibly stolen goods. > Finnegan To be horrid again, my impression is that Brecht must be extremely easy to translate accurately. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Apr 1 16:40:08 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:40:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question References: Message-ID: <015e01c41831$e95c4920$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I would recommend one good, traditional journal (Georgia Review, Southern Review, etc.), and one that takes more risks (Kenyon Review, Ploughshares, etc.) You should be able to afford them both for $50. D Ooops--the . . . Kenyon Review! Shouldn't you make sure he has trained psychiatric nurses in attendance before you recommend so potentially a mind-detonating experience as that, or Ploughshares, Doug? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 1 17:47:18 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:47:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <109.2eab8c07.2d9df5f6@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/04 4:23:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > To be horrid again, my impression is that Brecht must be extremely easy to > translate accurately. > Bob, I don't see why that would be an issue? Finnegan From bobgrumman Thu Apr 1 18:06:23 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:06:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <109.2eab8c07.2d9df5f6@aol.com> Message-ID: <01d601c4183d$f57677b0$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > To be horrid again, my impression is that Brecht must be extremely easy to > > translate accurately. > > > Bob, I don't see why that would be an issue? > Finnegan Poetry is what is lost in translation and all that. But I meant poems by Brecht like the ones you posted. Admittedly, I don't know them in German. --Bob G. From JforJames Thu Apr 1 18:24:33 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:24:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <54.25d98982.2d9dfeb1@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/2004 6:07:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Poetry is what is lost in translation and all that. But I meant poems by > Brecht like the ones you posted. Admittedly, I don't know them in German. blitzzzen So translation has nothing to do with it...you're saying the poems are poor, are too simple, or what? Personally I can hear/see a very wry sensibility that goes well with his socio-political leanings. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Apr 1 18:50:34 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:50:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <54.25d98982.2d9dfeb1@aol.com> Message-ID: <01fe01c41844$21ed2950$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Poetry is what is lost in translation and all that. But I meant poems by Brecht like the ones you posted. Admittedly, I don't know them in German. blitzzzen So translation has nothing to do with it...you're saying the poems are poor, are too simple, or what? Personally I can hear/see a very wry sensibility that goes well with his socio-political leanings. Finnegan Wry, yes, but standard near-prose expression of a standard leftist outlook. Or: it seems to me a literal prose translation would capture just about all there is to them. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcrew Thu Apr 1 19:16:20 2004 From: lcrew (Louie Crew) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:16:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question In-Reply-To: <005301c417e3$c8e607b0$e3622745@S0028976576> Message-ID: You might want to look at the list of Journals included in Index of American Periodical Verse, Supplied by Doctors James Anderson and Raphael Catala, at my site: http://rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/poetryja.html It has subscription costs and address information for the journals indexed. In tenure/promotion applications, some poets have identified which of their own publications appeared in journals indexed here, as journals most likely to be bought by libraries and therefore more widely accessible. Doctors Anderson and Catala have told me that this may be the last time their index will be published. That is a resource we shall miss. L. On Apr 1 7:20am Bentley wrote: > As someone with very limited funds, I have a question for any of you: > > If you had only $50 to spend on poetry journals/ magazines, which would you > get and why? > > Thank you, > > Bentley > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MillB Thu Apr 1 19:23:35 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:23:35 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: In a message dated 4/1/2004 4:16:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu writes: http://rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/poetryja.html Wow! What a great resource. Thank you so much for sharing it. Too bad it may be the last year it is put together. Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly Thu Apr 1 21:21:32 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:21:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Arizona Book Festival Message-ID: <12f.3e516e0e.2d9e282c@aol.com> Catherine Daly ?will moderate the new media poetry readings at the Arizona Book Festival http://www.azbookfestival.org/ 12:45-2:45 PM, Saturday April 3, 2004 Carnegie Center, Downstairs 1101 W. Washington Street, Phoenix with Walter K. Lew (Treadwinds, Wesleyan Press), Adeena Karasick (Dyssemia Sleaze, Talonbooks), and Rob Roberge (Trouble Knocking at My Door, Dark Alley Books, Harper Collins) ?dazzling first collection? ForeWord DaDaDa Catherine Daly Order it by ISBN Number, perhaps from SPD http://www.spdbooks.org ISBN: 1876857951 Salt Publishing, 2003 cadaly at pacbell.net http://www.catherinedaly.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 1 22:06:13 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:06:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <19e.22492363.2d9e32a5@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/2004 6:52:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Wry, yes, but standard near-prose expression of a standard leftist outlook. > Or: it seems to me a literal prose translation would capture just about all > there is to them. > > Bob, if you have opinion on the poems, state it. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 1 22:20:20 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:20:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: <1ca.1d7245de.2d9e35f4@aol.com> http://www.writer.org/gallery/lit_mag_a_m.htm one-stop shopping for litmags -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 06:35:48 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 06:35:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <19e.22492363.2d9e32a5@aol.com> Message-ID: <007201c418a6$a66b3ca0$76efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Wry, yes, but standard near-prose expression of a standard leftist outlook. Or: it seems to me a literal prose translation would capture just about all there is to them. Bob, if you have opinion on the poems, state it. Finnegan You don't think I haven't? I think they're lineated prose statements by a left-winger with a lower opinion of art than mine expressing his belief that politics and Social Injustice are more important than poetry. They have a wryness that would probably appeal to me if I shared Brecht's Noble Outlook, but I couldn't consider enough to make them poems of much worth. They use very standard diction and grammar which should make them easy to translate accurately, and their outlook is a dime a hundred dozen. I could go into detail if I had the poems in front of me, but am too lazy to go find them, and not in the mood to go into detail, anyway. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Fri Apr 2 07:36:13 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:36:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: "Here are four questions ..." In-Reply-To: <01fe01c41844$21ed2950$51efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <406D17ED.5804.23EABE@localhost> Found Poem: "Here are four questions..." Here are four questions. You have to answer them instantly. You can't take your time. Answer all of them immediately. OK? Let's find out just how clever you really are. Ready? GO! First Question: You are participating in a race. You overtake the second person. What position are you in? Answer: If you answered that you are first you are absolutely wrong. If you overtake the second person you take his place: you are second. Try not to screw up in the next question. And to answer the second question, don't take as much time as you took for the first question. Second Question: If you overtake the last person, then you are...? Answer: If you answered that you are second to last, then you are wrong again. Tell me, how can you overtake the LAST person?! You're not very good at this are you? Third Question: Very tricky math! Do this in your head only. Using paper and pencil, or a calculator, is cheating. We're trying to see how clever YOU are, not your calculator. Try it. Take 1000 and add 40 to it. Now add another 1000. Now add 30. Add another 1000. Now add 20. Now add another 1000. Now add 10. What is the total? Did you get 5000? Wrong again! The correct answer is actually 4100. Don't believe it? Now you can check with your calculator. Today is definitely not your day. Maybe you will get the last question right. Mary's father has five daughters: 1. Nana, 2. Nene, 3. Nini, 4. Nono. What is the name of the fifth daughter? Answer: Nunu? NO! Of course not. Her name is Mary. Read the question again Have a nice day. From JforJames Fri Apr 2 09:06:53 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:06:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poem by Jane Mayhall Message-ID: Welcome to the fourth annual Poem-a-Day mailing. To celebrate National Poetry Month, you will receive one poem from a Knopf poet every day for the next thirty days. We hope you enjoy the selections. If you would like to discuss the poetry, please visit us on the Knopf Poet's Forum. We begin with a poem by Jane Mayhall, an eighty-five year old New Yorker whose first full-length collection, SLEEPING LATE ON JUDGMENT DAY, was published in February. *************************************** The Forbidden Awful, not to be sleeping in the same bed with you. The respectability of medical opinion, that destroys not just hope, but the actual network of pleasure we built in life. Never again, the sane encounter- and the undercover hint of form, the plasticity of companionship that nobody mentions. Nightly conjunctions, part dreams, the ceiling blink of cars from outside on the country road. The low scatter, and grace-pattering rain, color of consciousness. That we are more than individuals. And now rent, kept apart, not by warring theatrical families, but by doctors and syringes. In their distant birdcage, taking account. Ravenously, I look forward to even the skimpiest meeting allowed, and our unrealistic true love. Unfettered and determined like headlights on a road. *************************************** From halvard Fri Apr 2 10:37:17 2004 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:37:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hasta luego, amigos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hasta luego, amigos-- This month, Lynda and I are rusticating in the Catskills and have no local dial-up number, so, while you can reach us individually at the email addresses below, I'll be off-list until May. Keep your uppers stiff. Hal "No passion in the world is equal to the passion to alter someone else's draft." --H. G. Wells Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net lyndaschor at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames Fri Apr 2 13:04:40 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:04:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <97.46179d9e.2d9f0538@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/04 8:39:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Motto > > In the dark times > Will there also be singing? > Yes, there will also be singing > About the dark times. > > --Bertolt Brecht > > > Bad Time for Poetry > > Yes, I know only the happy man > Is liked. His voice > Is good to hear. His face is handsome. > > The crippled tree in the yard > Shows that the soil is poor, yet > The passers-by abuse it for being crippled > And rightly so. > > The green boats and the dancing sails on the Sound > Go unseen. Of it all > I see only the torn nets of the fishermen. > Why do I only record > That a village woman aged forty walks with a stoop? > The girls' breasts > Are as warm as ever. > > In my poems a rhyme > Would seem to me almost insolent. > > Inside me contend > Delight at the apple tree in blossom > And horror at the house-painter's speeches. > But only the second > Drives me to my desk. > > --Bertolt Brecht FYI, after a closer look through the index, I believe these were John Willet's translations. From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 13:26:58 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:26:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: <160.2d9e4abc.2d9f0a72@aol.com> Well, Bob, there aren't really any mind bending journals out there. I am recommending the closes approximation I know. Most of the journals out there are so mediocre that one immediately suspects that standards other than literary quality have been employed in the editorial choices. However, for someone attempting to publish early on, the examples I gave are typical of the "market," don't you think? I really don't know where the genius is occuring these days, but I'm not sure its in our respectable literary journals. In fact, they all seem nervous about publishing anything that really pushes the limit. The good thing about the Georgia Review is the quality of production; the good thing about Ploughshares is the rotating editors. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 13:28:10 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:28:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <105.430d7033.2d9f0aba@aol.com> Bob: translation of poetry is like the perfect love: it's impossible, but we attempt it anyway. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 13:36:11 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:36:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <159.31b48560.2d9f0c9b@aol.com> Bob: you haven't read enough of Brecht to make the statements you are making. He is considered by many Europeans to be the best German lyric poet since Rilke. But you have to know a large chunk of his poems (and plays, and prose) to know anything about him, to now, for example, that he's not reduceable to his politics, or that his politics are in no way standard, or fixed. You also need to hear him read in German. I thought I'd say this before you further embarass yourself. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Fri Apr 2 13:47:34 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:47:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Issue Message-ID: The new April issue of the New Criterion is now up, devoted mainly to poetry, with essays by Dana Gioia and others and poems by Kay Ryan and others. Here's the link: http://www.newcriterion.com/ Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 16:18:59 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:18:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question References: <160.2d9e4abc.2d9f0a72@aol.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c418f8$1fa3c8c0$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Well, Bob, there aren't really any mind bending journals out there. I am recommending the closes approximation I know. Most of the journals out there are so mediocre that one immediately suspects that standards other than literary quality have been employed in the editorial choices. However, for someone attempting to publish early on, the examples I gave are typical of the "market," don't you think? I really don't know where the genius is occuring these days, but I'm not sure its in our respectable literary journals. In fact, they all seem nervous about publishing anything that really pushes the limit. The good thing about the Georgia Review is the quality of production; the good thing about Ploughshares is the rotating editors. D My opinion, too--except that I know of quite a few zines that publish outer-limit poetry, such as the stapled monthly, Fuck. Then there is Xtant, which is even perfect bound and glossy. Lost & Found Times has been publishing cutting edge poetry and whoknowzwot for a couple of decades now. There are several others, but I'm out of the loop, for the most part now. The latest issue of American Book Review has several reviews (one by me) of online poetry sites that seem to publish close to the full range of poetry out there. That's really where one should go, it seems to me. One is Light & Dust where I have work--along with all kinds of other poets, some of them almost conventional. I'm sure there are many sites that publish the kind of stuff Ploughshares and Georgia Review publish. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 16:20:39 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:20:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <105.430d7033.2d9f0aba@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d701c418f8$5a3d0140$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob: translation of poetry is like the perfect love: it's impossible, but we attempt it anyway. D I tend to think every poem is an attempted translation of a previous poem. Some translations succeed, I think--but none succeeds in being accurate. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 16:30:57 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:30:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <159.31b48560.2d9f0c9b@aol.com> Message-ID: <00e701c418f9$cef43250$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob: you haven't read enough of Brecht to make the statements you are making. He is considered by many Europeans to be the best German lyric poet since Rilke. But you have to know a large chunk of his poems (and plays, and prose) to know anything about him, to now, for example, that he's not reduceable to his politics, or that his politics are in no way standard, or fixed. You also need to hear him read in German. I thought I'd say this before you further embarass yourself. D Ha, Doug, you're too new here to realize that you can't keep me from further embarrassing myself. I have to admit that it's hard for me to believe anyone who believed in the kind of totalitarian communism Brecht did could possibly write anything of value--but I thought his The Caucasian Chalk Circle fairly good (in English). I still maintain that the two poems of his that James posted have little in them that would be hard to translate. Which isn't necessarily a put-down since I tend to think most of the best classical haiku in English should be a snap to translate--are almost (implicitly) required to be, in fact. This in spite of my high admiration for many of them. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Fri Apr 2 16:31:25 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:31:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A279@ariel.ripon.edu> Has anyone read the Heavyweight Poetry Bout in the current *Poetry*, in which Dana Gioia and August Kleinzahler face off over Keillor's *Good Poems* anthology? (Lack of Surprise Award: Gioia likes it, Kleinzahler doesn't.) I like Kleinzahler's poetry a good deal, but I have to judge it a TKO for Gioia, myself, who actually reviews the book, wisely and well, while AK mostly dances about, trash-talking and wanting us to admire his footwork. He barely glances at the book. The whole exchange is well worth a read. It really focuses quite illuminatingly on one of the chief faultlines in contemporary poetry, involving the whole matter of audience and accessibility. Wiman's essay leading into the dueling reviews is worth reading, too. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From MillB Fri Apr 2 16:49:32 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:49:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Online Zine Message-ID: <3f.29e918ac.2d9f39ec@aol.com> Here's another idiotic self-promotion, plus a link to a new online publication. I have two poems at Erotica Readers. Enjoy! http://www.erotica-readers.com/GD/PoetryFrame.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 16:50:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:50:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Issue References: Message-ID: <012601c418fc$74f9a700$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Issue > The new April issue of the New Criterion is now up, devoted mainly to > poetry, with essays by Dana Gioia and others and poems by Kay Ryan and > others. Here's the link: > > http://www.newcriterion.com/ > > > Paul Lake Beware. I'm a New Criterion subscriber, and hope I can work up the energy to do a thorough demolition of the issue--even though I haven't seen it yet, can you imagine that?! --Bob G. From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 17:12:30 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:12:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A279@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <018c01c418ff$9911e370$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Has anyone read the Heavyweight Poetry Bout in the current *Poetry*, in > which Dana Gioia and August Kleinzahler face off over Keillor's *Good Poems* > anthology? (Lack of Surprise Award: Gioia likes it, Kleinzahler doesn't.) Some "heavyweight" poetry bout. Sorta to poetry what a debate between Bush and Kerry would be to political science. --Bob G. From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 17:27:48 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:27:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <61FA31F8.0ED38082.0B0A44C0@aol.com> You need a tutorial in history. You need to know that Brecht rejected Stalinism. To be a communist during the rise of Hitler was to be politically effective: this is Brecht's marxism. After what happened to some of his friends in Russia, he changed his views. He escaped the Nazis only to come to this country and be investigated by the McCarthy people. He fled back to East Germany, but he kept his Swiss bank account intact. Communism is extremely different from country to country, and from decade to decade. The word for the kind of communism practiced by Stalin and Mao is "linksfascismus," or left facism. This is the totalitarianism of which you speak, and not Brecht's marxism. Brecht himself was naive, narcissistic and emotionally complicated. He must be considered as a very extraordinary (if difficult) human being, as well as one of the most innovative modernists. There are shades of interpretation here of which you must avail yourself if you are to have an informed opinion. Cheers, Doug From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 18:06:45 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:06:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] journal question Message-ID: <119.30fed75e.2d9f4c05@aol.com> Thanks for the recommendations. I'll check out these journals. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK Fri Apr 2 18:06:42 2004 From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 04 18:06:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <200404022306.i32N6ns1098352@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:08:02 -0500 ************** >>Has anyone read the Heavyweight Poetry Bout in the current *Poetry*, in >>which Dana Gioia and August Kleinzahler face off over Keillor's *Good Poems* >>anthology? (Lack of Surprise Award: Gioia likes it, Kleinzahler doesn't.) >> Definitely worth the read for its entertainment value; Gioia didn't say much that he hasn't said many times before (David, how do you feel about his sniping about hermetic poetry from the academy?) - but he did have a nice quote from, if I recall, Oscar Wilde. Kleinzahler was amusing in his unabated and unabashed hostility toward Keillor and all he (Keillor) stands for. I found Kleinzahler's nastiness much more entertaining than, say, William Logan's -- who, for the unwary who might be inclined to follow the recommendations from Paul Lake and Bob G., is a regular at the New Criterion. Beware the New Criterion! But how about amusing negative criticism as a genre? What are some outstanding current examples? Is anybody doing anything that even remotely compares with Mark Twain's immortal "Literary Offenses of Fenimore Cooper?" Richard From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 18:07:29 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:07:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <12a.3e44d4b6.2d9f4c31@aol.com> true, but not doing it is perhaps less satisfying -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL Fri Apr 2 18:14:19 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:14:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <144.25e8e03f.2d9f4dcb@aol.com> In a message dated 4/2/2004 6:08:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes: Is anybody doing anything that even remotely compares with Mark Twain's immortal "Literary Offenses of Fenimore Cooper?" or D.H. Lawrence's bombing of Ben Franklin. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 18:24:48 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:24:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <61FA31F8.0ED38082.0B0A44C0@aol.com> Message-ID: <01e301c41909$b2624040$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > You need a tutorial in history. You need to know that Brecht rejected Stalinism. To be a communist during the rise of Hitler was to be politically effective: this is Brecht's marxism. After what happened to some of his friends in Russia, he changed his views. He escaped the Nazis only to come to this country and be investigated by the McCarthy people. He fled back to East Germany, but he kept his Swiss bank account intact. Communism is extremely different from country to country, and from decade to decade. The word for the kind of communism practiced by Stalin and Mao is "linksfascismus," or left facism. This is the totalitarianism of which you speak, and not Brecht's marxism. Brecht himself was naive, narcissistic and emotionally complicated. He must be considered as a very extraordinary (if difficult) human being, as well as one of the most innovative modernists. There are shades of interpretation here of which you must avail yourself if you are to have an informed opinion. > Cheers, > Doug Possibly. You mustn't assume that just because I may disagree with you about Brecht that I'm not informed. I'll admit to not being informed enough to be able to say much more on this topic, though. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 18:28:58 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:28:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <12a.3e44d4b6.2d9f4c31@aol.com> Message-ID: <020901c4190a$476c6530$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> true, but not doing it is perhaps less satisfying Not doing what? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 19:05:02 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:05:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <74.3a68ba01.2d9f59ae@aol.com> I'm not making assumptions. Your comments let me know what you didn't know about the subject and I felt compelled to fill you in. Good chance that I'm older than you are, and lived through some of this history. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 19:05:49 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:05:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <85.871fdfa.2d9f59dd@aol.com> not translating poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 19:07:57 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:07:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <28.45a0db03.2d9f5a5d@aol.com> Interesting. I don't think much of Dana Gioia's poetry, I'm sad to say; but he is a protector of poetry, and a great friend of it. I'm looking forward to this issue of poetry. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 19:34:16 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:34:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <74.3a68ba01.2d9f59ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <024501c41913$67035080$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm not making assumptions. Your comments let me know what you didn't know about the subject and I felt compelled to fill you in. Good chance that I'm older than you are, and lived through some of this history. D You're the second one who's mistaken me for being younger than I am--which I attribute to my willingness to embarrass myself. I was in high school during the McCarthy hearings. My best friend was fascinated by them, but I couldn't have cared less about them. The whole subject of what Brecht's politics and aesthetic were is conplicated enough for me to feel confident that I could defend my interpretation (after probably a lot of definitions of terms) if it was worth getting into. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 2 19:36:51 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:36:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <28.45a0db03.2d9f5a5d@aol.com> Message-ID: <024f01c41913$c30e3de0$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Interesting. I don't think much of Dana Gioia's poetry, I'm sad to say; but he is a protector of poetry, and a great friend of it. I'm looking forward to this issue of poetry. D I'm sure he thinks he's protecting poetry, and that he's doing the best he can. His resistance to the newer forms of poetry, and championing of such things as more subsidized Shakespeare are only a few of the reasons I consider him more an enemy than a friend to poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo Fri Apr 2 22:03:40 2004 From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:03:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <28.45a0db03.2d9f5a5d@aol.com> <024f01c41913$c30e3de0$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004e01c41928$4476f750$6d94c044@MULDER> Bob, Could you clarify why you think subsidizing Shakespeare makes someone an enemy of poetry? Do you believe in a Progress of Poesy achieved only by Bloomian outdoing of one's predecessors? You wrote in an earlier post that "I tend to think every poem is an attempted translation of a previous poem. Some translations succeed, I think--but none succeeds in being accurate." By such a measure, the original, earlier version would seem superior to its translated shadows; does that not also apply to Shakespeare or any previous poet worth 'translating'? Backing your notion up a bit further, what would you identify as the ("accurate") Ur-poem which every poem tries unsuccessfully to translate? Curiouser and curiouser, Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Interesting. I don't think much of Dana Gioia's poetry, I'm sad to say; but he is a protector of poetry, and a great friend of it. I'm looking forward to this issue of poetry. D I'm sure he thinks he's protecting poetry, and that he's doing the best he can. His resistance to the newer forms of poetry, and championing of such things as more subsidized Shakespeare are only a few of the reasons I consider him more an enemy than a friend to poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Fri Apr 2 23:34:21 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 23:34:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <43.29eb06a2.2d9f98cd@aol.com> By the way, apparently Shakespeare translates well into German. D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 3 08:08:39 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 08:08:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <43.29eb06a2.2d9f98cd@aol.com> Message-ID: <006401c4197c$c95eaa40$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> By the way, apparently Shakespeare translates well into German. D Sure, but that's only because his diction is so clear and unconnotative, and he eschewed puns and other forms of subtle word play, and didn't care about the sound of his words. . . . --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Apr 3 13:10:35 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:10:35 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand's BLIZZARD OF ONE Message-ID: <1c8.17526d7d.2da0581b@aol.com> This poem is from Mark Strand's BLIZZARD OF ONE, which won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1999. *************************************** Old Man Leaves Party It was clear when I left the party That though I was over eighty I still had A beautiful body. The moon shone down as it will On moments of deep introspection. The wind held its breath. And look, somebody left a mirror leaning against a tree. Making sure that I was alone, I took off my shirt. The flowers of bear grass nodded their moonwashed heads. I took off my pants and the magpies circled the redwoods. Down in the valley the creaking river was flowing once more. How strange that I should stand in the wilds alone with my body. I know what you are thinking. I was like you once. But now With so much before me, so many emerald trees, and Weed-whitened fields, mountains and lakes, how could I not Be only myself, this dream of flesh, from moment to moment? *************************************** From renkath Sat Apr 3 13:46:14 2004 From: renkath (Ren Powell) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 20:46:14 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] shakespeare and puns Message-ID: What? Shakespeare eshewed puns?! Take a look at Act II, scene 1 of The Taming of the Shrew for starters. Sorry- lousey way to introduce myself, I'm sure. My name is Ren Powell and I joined the list a few days ago and have been quietly following the Brecht thread with interest since my background is in the theater. I'm an American, but have been living, teaching and writing in Norway for the last eleven years. (By the way, the Bard translates very well into Norwegian as well, mainly because of the strong iambic inherent in the spoken language). I was fascinated to read what people thought of Brecht as a poet since I've only encountered him with an eye on his theater and politics-always politics first- I'll try and find a quote from him about his clear priority in that regard. I'll be lurking mostly, but figured it was polite to let people know I was in the room. ren _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail http://www.hotmail.com Med markedets beste SPAM-filter. Gratis! From renkath Sat Apr 3 13:54:16 2004 From: renkath (Ren Powell) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 20:54:16 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] oops! Message-ID: Well, now that really was a lousy way to introduce myself to the list. Okay. No subtle word play for me. Sorry, Bob G. I'm a translator and I had a difficult time picking up on the irony in your post since Shakespeare does often translate quite well. I don't usually assume people are ignorant. I'll think lurk a while longer and you all can just turn your backs and forget I ever spoke up. Ren _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail http://www.hotmail.com Med markedets beste SPAM-filter. Gratis! From bobgrumman Sat Apr 3 14:40:18 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 14:40:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] oops! References: Message-ID: <028201c419b3$80a0f8d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Well, now that really was a lousy way to introduce myself to the list. Okay. > No subtle word play for me. Sorry, Bob G. I'm a translator and I had a > difficult time picking up on the irony in your post since Shakespeare does > often translate quite well. I don't usually assume people are ignorant. > > I'll think lurk a while longer and you all can just turn your backs and > forget I ever spoke up. > > Ren Were you the one who suggested Shakespeare translates well into German? If so, sorry. As most everyone at New-Poetry knows, I'm a sarcastic swine, expecially when "discussing" a point with people disagreeing with me, one of whom I thought had written the post you did (unless I missed your actual post). Anyone, since that I am, I rarely jump on anyone making his first post to the group. And you may not have been aware of all the previous posts on Brecht's translatability. I continue to think that since he mainly has an ax to grind and is therefore straight-forward, he should be easier to translate than poets more concerned than he to make a poem rather than a statement. In any case, forget your "blunder." I'm Evil Geni No. 2 of New-Poetry, so only outright agreement with something I say will get you in trouble with the other participants. (I may soon be Evil Geni No. 1, for the present holder of that title has been forbidden to bother the only person at New-Poetry who replies at any length to him, namely: me. I'm similarly not allowed to answer any post of his, but I don't mind, because I'm content with simpler tangling.) Meanwhile, another New-Poetry Evil Geni, Carlo Parcelli, has been telling me how stupid, trivial and inhumane I am back-channel. He seems to lack the stamina of my other Main Opponent, so I should survive. --Bob G. From mandolin Sat Apr 3 17:28:00 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:28:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] oops! In-Reply-To: <028201c419b3$80a0f8d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <028201c419b3$80a0f8d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <2A3CC503-85BE-11D8-968E-000393C29586@mac.com> On Apr 3, 2004, at 2:40 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Meanwhile, another New-Poetry Evil Geni, Carlo Parcelli, has been > telling me > how stupid, trivial and inhumane I am back-channel. Didn't think I'd be the only one. From JforJames Sat Apr 3 17:32:22 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 17:32:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <1e9.1cfa8d71.2da09576@aol.com> And I Always Thought And I always thought: the very simplest words Must be enough. When I say what things are like Everyone's heart must be torn to shreds. That you'll go down if you don't stand up for yourself Surely you see that. --Bertolt Brecht (tr. Michael Hamburger) I think simplicity is a very powerful device when writing political poetry in particular. I think the straight-ahead, face-first, here-it-is, works best, or has, for Vallejo, Brecht, Dalton, et al. A simple poem, if it is successful, and I believe many of Brecht's are, may actually be harder to translate than a poem full of literary pyrotechnics. Simply because the simple poem, when successful, will depend a lot on tone (tough to catch) and the nuance of the phrasings (tough to get right). A poem chockfull of or clotted with obvious effects...none of which can be easily extracted from the mass, all of which cause a surface (or surfeit)...can, conversely, be easier to translate because the overall effect masks, within its mass, what may be happening more subtly within the poem. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 3 19:37:23 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 19:37:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <1e9.1cfa8d71.2da09576@aol.com> Message-ID: <030b01c419dd$0248aa80$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> And I Always Thought And I always thought: the very simplest words Must be enough. When I say what things are like Everyone's heart must be torn to shreds. That you'll go down if you don't stand up for yourself Surely you see that. --Bertolt Brecht (tr. Michael Hamburger) I think simplicity is a very powerful device when writing political poetry in particular. I think the straight-ahead, face-first, here-it-is, works best, or has, for Vallejo, Brecht, Dalton, et al. A simple poem, if it is successful, and I believe many of Brecht's are, may actually be harder to translate than a poem full of literary pyrotechnics. Simply because the simple poem, when successful, will depend a lot on tone (tough to catch) and the nuance of the phrasings (tough to get right). A poem chockfull of or clotted with obvious effects...none of which can be easily extracted from the mass, all of which cause a surface (or surfeit)...can, conversely, be easier to translate because the overall effect masks, within its mass, what may be happening more subtly within the poem. Finnegan Granted. But as a general rule, surely lineated prose is easier to translate than passages in which something is done with the language. In the Brecht bleat, as translated, there is one straight-forward very cliched metaphor of psychological pain for which there must be dozens of equally effective substitutes, and a colloquialism, "stand up for yourself", which is punfully used. It sounds to me from the poem that Brecht, in this particular poem, just wants to say something. He has no concern with music or connotative richness, which seem to me the hard things to translate. Tone is important but it's a tone that seems to me able to be conveyed by any language's direct speech. I don't really believe that a poem that's easy to translate must be inferior to one that's hard, but I do believe that a poet who writes no poems that aren't relatively easy to translate must be a rather limited poet. By the way, it occurred to me while thinking how hard it would be to translate many of the pretty simple (to comprehend but--obviously--not to feel) minimalist poems I like, such as "lighght" if the language to be translated into had no word for it that contained silent letters, I thought of one that was very easy to translate into English. The German was "ich," with the dot of its "i" replaced with a fingerprint. The condensation its Englishing allowed really improved it, I think. Probably my real problem with Brecht is simply that I don't like political poems. Even indirectly political ones like the one above. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Sat Apr 3 21:23:39 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 21:23:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: In a message dated 4/3/04 7:38:19 PM, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > But as a general rule, surely?lineated prose is easier to translate than > passages in which something is done with the language.? > You need to read Jack Gilbert in English. It might give you some idea about what Brecht is like in German, although Jack doesn't include the politics. It's a plain language poetry, one which Jack one day described as "hewn from fragrant wood with an axe." It is not slick or facile in any way, but spare, the way Greek poetry was spare. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 3 21:44:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 21:44:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: Message-ID: <038201c419ee$bb280710$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 4/3/04 7:38:19 PM, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: But as a general rule, surely lineated prose is easier to translate than passages in which something is done with the language. You need to read Jack Gilbert in English. It might give you some idea about what Brecht is like in German, although Jack doesn't include the politics. It's a plain language poetry, one which Jack one day described as "hewn from fragrant wood with an axe." It is not slick or facile in any way, but spare, the way Greek poetry was spare. Okay, but surely that should make it easier to translate than Lowell, say, back in his Lord Weary days. Or any language poet. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Sat Apr 3 22:13:22 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 22:13:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems Message-ID: <1cf.1dacdfe2.2da0d752@aol.com> In a message dated 4/3/04 9:45:14 PM, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Okay, but surely that should make it easier to translate than Lowell, say, > back in his Lord Weary days.? Or any language poet.? > > ? > > No. Nor is plain langauge poetry easier to write. In fact, Gilbert intentionally works against prosodic techniques that put the poetry on automatic pilot. I think the same is true of Brecht. By the way, Brecht shifts back and forth between formal and plain language conventions, depending on the poem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sun Apr 4 07:45:10 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 07:45:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Brecht poems References: <1cf.1dacdfe2.2da0d752@aol.com> Message-ID: <003d01c41a3a$4a9faba0$89efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Okay, but surely that should make it easier to translate than Lowell, say, back in his Lord Weary days. Or any language poet. No. Nor is plain langauge poetry easier to write. In fact, Gilbert intentionally works against prosodic techniques that put the poetry on automatic pilot. I think the same is true of Brecht. By the way, Brecht shifts back and forth between formal and plain language conventions, depending on the poem. All I can say at this point is that I can't see it. I, like Yeats, start with prose. Then I try to make poetry out of it, in theprocess necessarily making it harder to translate. A word with denotation and connotation has to be harder to find a substitute for, in any language, than a word with just a denotation. If Gilbert and Brecht somehow work they way to some kind of connotations with simple language, then they are simply unusual cases of poets who are comparatively harder to translate than most poets. But they simply cannot be harder to translate than certain language poets. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Apr 4 14:49:28 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 14:49:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dog...grrrrr...el Message-ID: <167.2da51e6f.2da1b2b8@aol.com> This lighthearted poem by Dorothy Parker is from the new Everyman's Library Pocket Poets volume DOGGEREL, edited by Carmela Ciuraru.*************************************** Verse for a Certain Dog By Dorothy ParkerSuch glorious faith as fills your limpid eyes, Dear little friend of mine, I never knew. All-innocent are you, and yet all-wise. (For Heaven's sake, stop worrying that shoe!) You look about, and all you see is fair; This mighty globe was made for you alone. Of all the thunderous ages, you're the heir. (Get off the pillow with that dirty bone!) A skeptic world you face with steady gaze; High in young pride you hold your noble head; Gayly you meet the rush of roaring days. (Must you eat puppy biscuit on the bed?) Lancelike your courage, gleaming swift and strong, Yours the white rapture of a wing?d soul, Yours is a spirit like a May-day song. (God help you, if you break the goldfish bowl!) "Whatever is, is good"-your gracious creed. You wear your joy of living like a crown. Love lights your simplest act, your every deed. (Drop it, I tell you-put that kitten down!) You are God's kindliest gift of all-a friend. Your shining loyalty unflecked by doubt, You ask but leave to follow to the end. (Couldn't you wait until I took you out?) *************************************** From bobgrumman Sun Apr 4 18:05:06 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 18:05:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] oops! References: <028201c419b3$80a0f8d0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <2A3CC503-85BE-11D8-968E-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <014e01c41a90$e4ef3030$89efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On Apr 3, 2004, at 2:40 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Meanwhile, another New-Poetry Evil Geni, Carlo Parcelli, has been > > telling me > > how stupid, trivial and inhumane I am back-channel. > > Didn't think I'd be the only one. > He does seem to be the type with a tendency to do that with a lot of people. --Bob G. From JforJames Sun Apr 4 20:55:09 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 20:55:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Elaine Equi, 3 poems Message-ID: National Poetry Month When a poem speaks by itself it has a spark and can be considered part of a divine conversation. Sometimes the poem weaves like a basket around two loaves of yellow bread. Break off a piece of this April with its raisin nipples," it says. "And chew them slowly under your pillow. You belong in bed with me." On the other hand, when a poem speaks in the voice of a celebrity it is called television or a movie. "There is nothing to see," say Robert De Niro, though his poem bleeds all along the edges like a paddle crudely outlined with yellow tape at the crime scene of spring. "It is an old poem," he adds. "And besides, I was very young when I made it." --Elaine Equi, _The Cloud of Knowable Things_ Intersections I'm at the corner of Can't & Won't. In the kiosk between Aroma & Automatic, Squirm & Squall, Minimal Art & Minimum Wage. I'm trying to get to Hilt & Vine. The high-priestess in the high-rise and the persona in the persona-non-grata dept. both told me that if I cut across Performance & Fugue, Mayday & Kind, it would put me on the quad next to the grid near Bittersweet & Icarus and from there I could walk. --Elaine Equi, _The Cloud of Knowable Things_ The Killers Inside Me when they are off-duty seem like anybody else at a party or in a restaurant. They could even be witty or give good advice on which shoes to buy, i.e., open-toed gladiator sandals work best for celestial power walking. Really, they are not bad when not cruelly maiming. From now on, I've adopted a live-and-let-live policy toward the killers inside me. --Elaine Equi, _The Cloud of Knowable Things_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sun Apr 4 22:46:55 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 21:46:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler/long In-Reply-To: <200404022306.i32N6ns1098352@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: I do think that the Gioia/Kleinzahler face-off, in addition to its solid amusement value, nicely exposes some perennial fault lines in contemporary poetry, having to do with audience, accessibility, purpose, and attitude toward emotional content in lyrics. It's not coincidental, for example, that Keillor in his spiky and deliberately provocative introduction praises the poems of Millay over Moore; he's staking a not particularly fashionable claim. Generally, Keillor seems to serve as a convenient lightning rod for criticism (just as Gioia does), and it looks to be a role he rather relishes. Much of the introduction to *Good Poems* finds him taking amusing pot shots at various poets' high reputations: it's oversimplified, unfair, and quite funny stuff--at least as funny as Kleinzahler's antics in dismissing Keillor, and no more unfair. And as Gioia points out, it's also rather rare to find an anthologist being so honest about issues of taste. I don't agree with everything Keillor says, by any means. Nor would I omit Pound and Eliot entirely from a book called *Good Poems*. But I'm currently using *Good Poems* as a text in a creative writing class, and I think its title is entirely accurate. If you're looking for an introductory text that is both good and accessible to readers who are unsure of poetry, it's a solid choice. Not that the book covers the entire range of good poetry. Keillor stresses accessibility and narrative values, so there are lots of valuable poems omitted, but the good poems he includes tend to go over well with non-poets, I find. So the book raises the vexed issue of accessibility, naturally, which is where much of the polarizing debate soon arrives. As I've said, Gioia comes across far better in the dueling reviews, mainly because he accurately and thoughtfully reviews Keillor's book, giving one a good sense of what's in it and why. Kleinzahler barely glances at the book, and spends much of his space talking about Keillor's radio show, his reading voice, and other examples of what he finds to be our philistine culture. The core of Kleinzahler's critique of Keillor's taste is this: "Everything Keillor does is about reassurance, containment, continuity. He makes no demands on his audiences, none whatsoever. To do so would only be bad manners. Gentleness and good manners are the twin pillars of the church of Keillor." Instead, in good modernist and postmodernist fashion, Kleinzahler speaks up for "excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk." His metaphors are military and otherwise assaultive, and I don't think that's accidental. Kleinzahaler's an unabashed elitist, and obviously sees any attempt to reach toward a broader audience as inherently a cheapening, little more than Hallmark hucksterism. Clearly a successful poem is never gentle or consoling. But I think that those who dismiss Keillor as a mere cozy sentimentalist--as Kleinzahler very comically does-- haven't looked too closely at what he's produced. Certainly Kleinzahler gives little sense of having actually read the book, though he maybe glanced at the table of contents. He does say that there are poems in the book that aren't bad, though he speculates that maybe a staffer picked them, not Keillor himself--clearly Keillor cannot win. While it's true that Keillor has no truck with anything remotely post-modern in style, anyone who's actually read his literary productions knows he does not shy away from the tragic. Or from the celebratory, the satiric, the comic or profound. In fact, I'd say Keillor rather glaringly shines a light on the classic issue of sentiment versus sentimentality. Is *every* poem that treats of common human experience and emotions in a non-ironic way by definition sentimental, comforting, banal? Kleinzahler would furnish us no reasons to think otherwise. And that indicates, to my mind, not only sloppy critical effort on Kleinzahler's part, but a lapse of vision. In any case, his characterization of Keillor strikes me as having as much to do with a dislike of his soothing baritone voice and his gentle radio comedy as it does with any rigorous reading of what Keillor has put on the page. But more than that: I'll jump into this polarizing debate with both feet. Older I get, the more I question the adequacy of any aesthetic that places chief merit on "excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk"--thus in practice leaving huge swaths of human experience off limits to the most serious art. It's at least as limiting and limited a perspective as Kleinzahaler accuses Keillor of espousing, seems to me. Unmentioned in Kleinzahler's review, by the way, are poems such as Kenyon's "Otherwise," Snyder's "Hay for the Horses," Millay's "Dirge Without Music," Merwin's "Yesterday," Hass's "Our Lady of the Snows," and Olds's "I Go Back to May 1937"--all included in *Good Poems*. I'm still having some trouble attaching the Hallmark seal of approval to all those. . . . [apologies for cross-posting: some may have seen a mangled version of this post elsewhere] ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From GrahamD Mon Apr 5 11:19:52 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:19:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eberhart Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A27E@ariel.ripon.edu> A 100th birthday toast to Richard Eberhart. I believe I wrote the following poem on the occasion of his 90th. He was a teacher of mine back in the 1970s, and I remember thinking he was old *then*. Never thought he'd make it to the century mark, but he has. OLD POET ENDURING PRAISE --in memory of one who is not gone Once in a jerky student movie I saw him showered by apple blossoms in a graveyard, petals crowning his gleaming pate. Flower and skull, we got it, having seen pages and pages of this sort of showering. Then the camera slipped an instant to reveal how he shook the bounty from above on himself, one hand gripping the bough tight as a pen, raining dire blessings on that implicated head. No doubt the shoestring budget allowed no apple bough shaker. Cheerful to a fault, he consented to dump fragrant symbols on himself. Oh, too tempting not to take this up now as summary of a career in lyric play, tensile flex of green branch and heavy hand, the given arc between stolid earth and vanishing sky seeded with that praise he nonetheless deserves for his handful of perfect fruit. A quarter century's gone, his books long since ceased. He's begun to slip from most of the anthologies by now, though from time to time he is still hauled out of the Home to recite those ancient miracles of his prime. I saw him arrive at the hall, grandchild steering him like a battleship into dry dock. Pipe ashes all over his tweed, stubble on his still lyric face. Nobody could say why he clutched three cheap flashlights all unlit, a plastic jumble filling his writing hand. So after receiving my teacher's blank-eyed greeting, I asked, half expecting some quip as of old about Diogenes, or the light that surpasseth understanding. "Oh, it's just a habit, I guess," he smiled, and shuffled on, uninsulted, heading for the podium where he would read his best poem four times before they eased him off the stage. (*Cortland Review*, October 1998) http://www.cortlandreview.com/issuefive/graham5.htm ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 16:04:38 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:04:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: Message-ID: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> If I taught poetry appreciation in college, I would definitely NOT require my students to give people like Keillor and his publishers more money. I would, like a prof I had, xerox up my own anthology and distribute it free to students. Or put it on the Net. What poems would it include? Surprise--probably ten or twenty "good poems." Maybe more. Plus classics like "On First Reading Chapman's Homer." Plus specimens of the kind of poems English professors tend to like--the Wilbur to Ashbury crowd. Where my anthology would be different is that BOILERPLATE COMING UP, FOLKS it would include poems from poetry schools few if any English professors know anything about. I would also provide a bibliography that would direct the interested student to good collections of any kind of poetry that might take his fancy. Rationale: that the more kinds of poems one provides students, the more likely a given student will find something he likes; one or two per hundred might actually get interested in and support my kind of poetry, and the others would at least be exposed to it. Non-Professor Grumman ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 10:46 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler/long > I do think that the Gioia/Kleinzahler face-off, in addition to its solid > amusement value, nicely exposes some perennial fault lines in contemporary > poetry, having to do with audience, accessibility, purpose, and attitude > toward emotional content in lyrics. > > It's not coincidental, for example, that Keillor in his spiky and > deliberately provocative introduction praises the poems of Millay over > Moore; he's staking a not particularly fashionable claim. Generally, > Keillor seems to serve as a convenient lightning rod for criticism (just as > Gioia does), and it looks to be a role he rather relishes. > > Much of the introduction to *Good Poems* finds him taking amusing pot shots > at various poets' high reputations: it's oversimplified, unfair, and quite > funny stuff--at least as funny as Kleinzahler's antics in dismissing > Keillor, and no more unfair. And as Gioia points out, it's also rather rare > to find an anthologist being so honest about issues of taste. > > I don't agree with everything Keillor says, by any means. Nor would I omit > Pound and Eliot entirely from a book called *Good Poems*. But I'm currently > using *Good Poems* as a text in a creative writing class, and I think its > title is entirely accurate. If you're looking for an introductory text that > is both good and accessible to readers who are unsure of poetry, it's a > solid choice. Not that the book covers the entire range of good poetry. > Keillor stresses accessibility and narrative values, so there are lots of > valuable poems omitted, but the good poems he includes tend to go over well > with non-poets, I find. So the book raises the vexed issue of > accessibility, naturally, which is where much of the polarizing debate soon > arrives. > > As I've said, Gioia comes across far better in the dueling reviews, mainly > because he accurately and thoughtfully reviews Keillor's book, giving one a > good sense of what's in it and why. Kleinzahler barely glances at the book, > and spends much of his space talking about Keillor's radio show, his reading > voice, and other examples of what he finds to be our philistine culture. > > The core of Kleinzahler's critique of Keillor's taste is this: > > "Everything Keillor does is about reassurance, containment, continuity. He > makes no demands on his audiences, none whatsoever. To do so would only be > bad manners. Gentleness and good manners are the twin pillars of the church > of Keillor." > > Instead, in good modernist and postmodernist fashion, Kleinzahler speaks up > for "excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk." His metaphors are > military and otherwise assaultive, and I don't think that's accidental. > Kleinzahaler's an unabashed elitist, and obviously sees any attempt to reach > toward a broader audience as inherently a cheapening, little more than > Hallmark hucksterism. Clearly a successful poem is never gentle or > consoling. > > But I think that those who dismiss Keillor as a mere cozy sentimentalist--as > Kleinzahler very comically does-- haven't looked too closely at what he's > produced. Certainly Kleinzahler gives little sense of having actually read > the book, though he maybe glanced at the table of contents. He does say > that there are poems in the book that aren't bad, though he speculates that > maybe a staffer picked them, not Keillor himself--clearly Keillor cannot > win. > > While it's true that Keillor has no truck with anything remotely post-modern > in style, anyone who's actually read his literary productions knows he does > not shy away from the tragic. Or from the celebratory, the satiric, the > comic or profound. In fact, I'd say Keillor rather glaringly shines a light > on the classic issue of sentiment versus sentimentality. Is *every* poem > that treats of common human experience and emotions in a non-ironic way by > definition sentimental, comforting, banal? > > Kleinzahler would furnish us no reasons to think otherwise. And that > indicates, to my mind, not only sloppy critical effort on Kleinzahler's > part, but a lapse of vision. In any case, his characterization of Keillor > strikes me as having as much to do with a dislike of his soothing baritone > voice and his gentle radio comedy as it does with any rigorous reading of > what Keillor has put on the page. > > But more than that: I'll jump into this polarizing debate with both feet. > Older I get, the more I question the adequacy of any aesthetic that places > chief merit on "excess, anger, challenge, exploration, risk"--thus in > practice leaving huge swaths of human experience off limits to the most > serious art. It's at least as limiting and limited a perspective as > Kleinzahaler accuses Keillor of espousing, seems to me. > > Unmentioned in Kleinzahler's review, by the way, are poems such as Kenyon's > "Otherwise," Snyder's "Hay for the Horses," Millay's "Dirge Without Music," > Merwin's "Yesterday," Hass's "Our Lady of the Snows," and Olds's "I Go Back > to May 1937"--all included in *Good Poems*. I'm still having some trouble > attaching the Hallmark seal of approval to all those. . . . > > [apologies for cross-posting: some may have seen a mangled version of this > post elsewhere] > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anastasios Mon Apr 5 16:26:21 2004 From: anastasios (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:26:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner Message-ID: <1081196781.4071c0edad590@www.lostbaklava.com> POETRY: 'Walking to Martha's Vineyard' by Franz Wright These brief, haunted poems by Franz Wright ask why people want to kill themselves or use up their lives. thoughts? From Djoysgrape Mon Apr 5 16:34:46 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 16:34:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College Message-ID: <78A70165.373FBFEB.0B0A44C0@aol.com> Well, Bob, anthologies are always according to whom. Publishers, who have become pimps in the last decades, will use anybody's name to float an anthology. If Tom Cruise were to offer his favorite poems, somebody would buy them. This is always going to be a problem, and yes, xeroxes are the alternative. I find theme anthologies to be more satisfying. Kurt Brown's Outsiders and Deborah Denicola's anthology of mythological poems (Orpheus something) are cases in point. From robin.hamilton2 Mon Apr 5 16:51:25 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:51:25 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> Bob, I hate to say this, but there speaks ("Non-Professor Grumman"), someone who ain't done this. Even leaving aside the copyright-problem, there's the physical difficulty of producing a custom-anthology for a single class with over-ten members, unless you exploit the secretarial staff who are usually female, temporary, overworked and underpaid. (And that leaves aside the time&work you have to put into this yourself, which is mostly invisible, unacknowledged, and counter-productive in "professional" terms.) There are reasons, lousy in pedagogical terms but practically irrefutable, why teaching at a certain level tends to default to anthologies -- you CAN'T ask the kids to buy all the books you'd like them to read, because they have five other classes to buy books for, and a limited supply of money, and the idea of loose-reading based on library-holdings ... sucks. So you default to anthologies, the least-worst option, and issue them with a public Health Warning. "This anthology is based on the Personal Taste of the editor and has the following limitations ..." > If I taught poetry appreciation in college, I would definitely NOT require > my students to give people like Keillor and his publishers more money. I > would, like a prof I had, xerox up my own anthology and distribute it free > to students. Or put it on the Net. Try it, if you're doing this ON TOP OF a full-teaching rota. > What poems would it include? Surprise--probably ten or twenty "good poems." > Maybe more. Plus classics like "On First Reading Chapman's Homer." So why not, for pre-20thC, simply give them a set of URLs? Or tell them to google the texts? > Plus > specimens of the kind of poems English professors tend to like--the Wilbur > to Ashbury crowd. Copyright. > Where my anthology would be different is that I first hit this when I was trying to work-out how to provide a teaching-anthology for non-canonical 16thC poems that *I* wanted to teach (basically the Ivor Winters line) and ended-up editing and publishing an anthology [now out-of-print] called *An Anthology of Sixteenth Century Poems*. There are no simple answers to this, and the Web doesn't entirely solve it. You can now (as you couldn't when I was teaching) direct kids towards decent Web-texts of some (most?) pre-20thC texts, but ... Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Robin From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 16:38:11 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:38:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner References: <1081196781.4071c0edad590@www.lostbaklava.com> Message-ID: <026001c41b4d$ebcdc7a0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > POETRY: 'Walking to Martha's Vineyard' by Franz Wright > These brief, haunted poems by Franz Wright ask why people want to kill > themselves or use up their lives. > > > thoughts? Yes: Good Grief. Aren't I close-minded!? --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Mon Apr 5 17:16:47 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:16:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <78A70165.373FBFEB.0B0A44C0@aol.com> Message-ID: <004b01c41b53$4e0c9720$b1cf8051@MyPC> From: > Well, Bob, anthologies are always according to whom. Publishers, who have become pimps in the last decades, will use anybody's name to float an anthology. If Tom Cruise were to offer his favorite poems, somebody would buy them. This is always going to be a problem, and yes, xeroxes are the alternative. I really think the question of anthologies is more complicated than this, and predates the teaching/academic-syndrome. Anthologies are both powerful and dangerous -- distorted maps. The earliest *printed* anthology which had any significant effect on writing or taste was Tottel in 1555, then there's Palgrave, and the alternative Yeats&Roberts anthologies in 1925. Currently, anthologies either sell as teaching-texts or as ego-texts (or, ideally from the publishers' point-of-view, both). I think, honest, the best around, simply because you get more poems-per-dollar, is NortonPoetry4. Bland, restricted, but with a hell-of-a-lot-of pre-20thC poetry, more poems-per-dollar. (After 1950, it's Strictly American, and the selection of UK writers is frankly weird. Not wrong -- NortonPoetry4 post-1900 gives more space to Stevie Smith than a comparable UK anthology would, which I'm all in favour of, but ... weird. Geoffrey Hill, yet.) One of the funniest anthologies I ever encountered was the Penguin update of Lucie-Smith's Penguin +British Poetry after 1945+, edited by Rob Crawford and Simon Armitage. Utterly orthodox, middle-of-the-road, but ... ... of the first 100 pages, 75 were given-over to Scots (both Lallans and Gaelic) and the Welsh. Talk about subversive ... I opened a copy in a branch of Waterstone's and started to howl with laughter. (Eventually, they had to eject me from the shop.) Anthologies can be both (and) Establishment and Subversive. Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 18:19:52 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 18:19:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <027b01c41b5c$1feb6c00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > If I taught poetry appreciation in college, I would definitely NOT require > > my students to give people like Keillor and his publishers more money. I > > would, like a prof I had, xerox up my own anthology and distribute it free > > to students. Or put it on the Net. > > > > Try it, if you're doing this ON TOP OF a full-teaching rota. Okay, do some brainstorming. How about for your very first poetry appreciation class you have every student find a poem he likes and bring it to class. Write it on the board and everyone else copies it into a poetry notebook for the class. He says why he likes it. Discussion follows. The teacher fills in the lacunae. Surely, students can still copy poems off a chalkboard without breaking copyright law? This gets into another pet peeve of mine: the idiocy of copyright laws: I think it should be legal to use in full any poem less than a few pages in length (and detached from any collection it is in) in an essay or lesson. Fair use, on the grounds that there's no way such use can cut into the publisher's and the poet's take since no one would likely buy a class or a book of criticism rather than a poetry collection in order to get a single poem. > > What poems would it include? Surprise--probably ten or twenty "good > poems." > > Maybe more. Plus classics like "On First Reading Chapman's Homer." > > So why not, for pre-20thC, simply give them a set of URLs? Or tell them to > google the texts? > > Plus > > specimens of the kind of poems English professors tend to like--the Wilbur > > to Ashbury crowd. > Copyright. But a teacher is still permitted to read full poems to a class without paying a royalty, isn't he? Have students take notes and let them know where to find other poems by an author if they like one of his poems. > > Where my anthology would be different is that > > I first hit this when I was trying to work-out how to provide a > teaching-anthology for non-canonical 16thC poems that *I* wanted to teach > (basically the Ivor Winters line) and ended-up editing and publishing an > anthology [now out-of-print] called *An Anthology of Sixteenth Century > Poems*. > > There are no simple answers to this, and the Web doesn't entirely solve it. > > You can now (as you couldn't when I was teaching) direct kids towards decent > Web-texts of some (most?) pre-20thC texts, but ... > > Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. > > Robin I dunno. Seems to me creative minds could come up with some at least partial cure. Oh, well. --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From MillB Mon Apr 5 18:29:44 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 18:29:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College Message-ID: <9a.769a6bb.2da337d8@aol.com> In a message dated 4/5/2004 3:20:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Okay, do some brainstorming. How about for your very first poetry appreciation class you have every student find a poem he likes and bring it to class. Write it on the board and everyone else copies it into a poetry notebook for the class. He says why he likes it. Discussion follows. The teacher fills in the lacunae. Surely, students can still copy poems off a chalkboard without breaking copyright law? Believe it or not I DID this exercise. What can I say? Students brought in greeting cards, jokes from teen magazines, a line their eight year old sister wrote, a Dear Abby column, lyrics from a cd by Nine Inch Nails. The next year I tried the exercise again, with ground rules: the poems had to be from a literary magazine, an anthology, or collection. No Susan Polis Schultz or Hallmark collection of "inspiring thoughts." I think students need to have the tools--they need to know where to go to find poems they might like. Otherwise, it's a little like asking a Martian to fry an egg. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 19:15:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 19:15:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <9a.769a6bb.2da337d8@aol.com> Message-ID: <02a501c41b63$d6422d70$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Believe it or not I DID this exercise. What can I say? Students brought in greeting cards, jokes from teen magazines, a line their eight year old sister wrote, a Dear Abby column, lyrics from a cd by Nine Inch Nails. The next year I tried the exercise again, with ground rules: the poems had to be from a literary magazine, an anthology, or collection. No Susan Polis Schultz or Hallmark collection of "inspiring thoughts." I think students need to have the tools--they need to know where to go to find poems they might like. Otherwise, it's a little like asking a Martian to fry an egg. So how'd the exercise work with ground rules? Here's a possible variation: fill a carton with poems (torn out of old anthologies, xeroxed, hand-written, printed from the Internet, whatever) and spend a period or two rummaging through the box to give the students some idea of what's in it. Then require each one to pick one he likes, or doesn't hate, and talk about it or write about it for the class. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Mon Apr 5 19:29:35 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 16:29:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> <027b01c41b5c$1feb6c00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4071EBDF.25F35E10@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > If I taught poetry appreciation in college, I would definitely NOT > require > > > my students to give people like Keillor and his publishers more money. > I > > > would, like a prof I had, xerox up my own anthology and distribute it > free > > > to students. Or put it on the Net. > > > > > > > > Try it, if you're doing this ON TOP OF a full-teaching rota. > > Okay, do some brainstorming. How about for your very first poetry > appreciation class What, in your mind, is a "poetry appreciation class"? > you have every student find a poem he likes and bring it > to class. Write it on the board That's one class session. > and everyone else copies it into a poetry > notebook for the class. He says why he likes it. There's another class session. > Discussion follows. The > teacher fills in the lacunae. And another. > Surely, students can still copy poems off a > chalkboard without breaking copyright law? > Like Robin says, you ain't never done it (taught the mythical "poetry appreciation class"). Anyway, there are so many anthologies, themed, historical etc., that one is not bound to a particular anthology and can explore the classroom successes and failures of many. Stick to the web. - Jim From robin.hamilton2 Mon Apr 5 20:21:59 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:21:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> <027b01c41b5c$1feb6c00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <009501c41b6d$2d644df0$b1cf8051@MyPC> Bob: > Okay, do some brainstorming. How about for your very first poetry > appreciation class you have every student find a poem he likes and bring it > to class. Write it on the board and everyone else copies it into a poetry > notebook for the class. Bob, do you KNOW how long it takes to write anything onto a blackboard, let alone in a way that can be read by anyone two feet away from the front of a class? Let alone how to FIND a bloody piece of chalk, even if there's a blackboard that isn't so screwed it's virtually bloody impossible to write on it without the chalk (if you can find a piece) squeeking like crazy and rubbing everyone's nerves sideways. Look, I hate to do this (no I don't, i love the chance, so there ) but I've taught on every level from age 9 to dissertation-supervison, with in the middle ESL/EFL, remedial English to adults, high school, the three brands of English higher education (teacher training, outsourced degree and straight [English] Universities on every level) so I kinda sorta know whereof I speak. What haven't I taught? Well, I'd like to say I'd never taught Creative Writing [or SF] either on the undergraduate or graduate (MFA) level, but hey, everyone makes compromises. The bottom line is what you can teach depends partly on the physical structures of where you are. I did produce handouts for Anne Bradstreet and Lady Mary Wortley Montague, but then I was more prepared to compromise for the girls ... Bob, I think your vision of teaching exists in some sort of ideal world -- try teaching Religious Studies to a class of fourteen-year old girls at the height of the Cyprus conflict where at the back of your class, you have a Turkish girl who's been in the UK since she was born sitting beside a Greek Cypriot girl just arrived from Cyprus and whispering to her in an undertone a running-translation of what I was saying. Back in Cyprus, their daddies were trying to kill each other, but did that matter? Did it buggery. If there's any hope in the world, it's with the children. > He says why he likes it. Discussion follows. Would it were so easy. > The > teacher fills in the lacunae. Surely, students can still copy poems off a > chalkboard without breaking copyright law? GUGH!!!! Get real, Bob. Robin From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 20:23:30 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:23:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> <027b01c41b5c$1feb6c00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4071EBDF.25F35E10@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <02ed01c41b6d$65caef00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > If I taught poetry appreciation in college, I would definitely NOT > > require > > > > my students to give people like Keillor and his publishers more money. > > I > > > > would, like a prof I had, xerox up my own anthology and distribute it > > free > > > > to students. Or put it on the Net. > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it, if you're doing this ON TOP OF a full-teaching rota. > > > > Okay, do some brainstorming. How about for your very first poetry > > appreciation class > > What, in your mind, is a "poetry appreciation class"? Ooops, pure fantasy. In theory it would be a class in which someone knowledgeable and enthusiastic about poetry taught a survey course in Poetry in English. > > you have every student find a poem he likes and bring it > > to class. Write it on the board > > That's one class session. > > > and everyone else copies it into a poetry > > notebook for the class. He says why he likes it. > > There's another class session. > > > Discussion follows. The > > teacher fills in the lacunae. > > And another. So? > > Surely, students can still copy poems off a > > chalkboard without breaking copyright law? > > > > Like Robin says, you ain't never done it (taught the mythical "poetry > appreciation class"). Good answer. > Anyway, there are so many anthologies, themed, historical etc., that one > is not bound to a particular anthology and can explore the classroom > successes and failures of many. And the students wouldn't be required to buy any particular one? Of course, you ignore the fact that there are no readily available anthologies that include more than an accidental specimen or two of non-mainstream poetry, and the specialized anthologies of such poetry (like the one I co-edited of visual poetry) would be too specialized for an undergraduated class (and expensive since not mass-produced). > Stick to the web. > > - Jim I think the web will probably someday solve the problem. --Bob G. From jnewberry1974 Mon Apr 5 20:41:45 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 17:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College In-Reply-To: <02ed01c41b6d$65caef00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20040406004145.8931.qmail@web11605.mail.yahoo.com> Bob, I applaud you for sticking to your guns, but man, take it from somebody in the trenches at a 2-year school, your idea simply isn't feasible. Anthologies--a necessary evil? I dunno. I kind of like having collections of poetry around. No--they don't happen to have any "mathamaku" or whatever in them--but they do have poems that I like. For the most part, students hate poetry. They think it's hard. They think that they have to have some kind of specialized knowledge to understand them. Good/bad poetry notwithstanding, they also think that anything worth reading out to reveal itself to them immediately if not sooner. Asking them to consider a piece of text closely is like trying to reason with a dog--they *look* they understand, smile a bit, but just keep on digging holes in your back yard. You attack the poetry establishment with montonous regularity. If you're so damn mad about poetry, why do you even worry? Why even write it? Why give a crap about Gioia or Keillor? What's wrong with accessible poems? What's wrong with an anthology like Keillor's? Don't you think that if you made your own anthology, you'd be committing the same egregious sins you accuse other anthologists of? Look--I know where you stand. You've made it clear in many, many posts. I don't dismiss you. I don't dismiss the value of your taxonomy (which I did take a look at a few times. It's interesting. Cheers to you). What I don't understand is your anger toward anything that's not--well--something you like. Am I misreading you? If so, I'm sorry. However, as someone who loves poetry, as someone who attempts to write it, I don't understand someone who attacks it and claims to like it. Jeff Newberry --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > If I taught poetry appreciation in college, > I would definitely NOT > > > require > > > > > my students to give people like Keillor and > his publishers more > money. > > > I > > > > > would, like a prof I had, xerox up my own > anthology and distribute > it > > > free > > > > > to students. Or put it on the Net. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it, if you're doing this ON TOP OF a > full-teaching rota. > > > > > > Okay, do some brainstorming. How about for your > very first poetry > > > appreciation class > > > > What, in your mind, is a "poetry appreciation > class"? > > Ooops, pure fantasy. In theory it would be a class > in which someone > knowledgeable and enthusiastic about poetry taught a > survey course in Poetry > in English. > > > > you have every student find a poem he likes and > bring it > > > to class. Write it on the board > > > > That's one class session. > > > > > and everyone else copies it into a poetry > > > notebook for the class. He says why he likes > it. > > > > There's another class session. > > > > > Discussion follows. The > > > teacher fills in the lacunae. > > > > And another. > > So? > > > > Surely, students can still copy poems off a > > > chalkboard without breaking copyright law? > > > > > > > Like Robin says, you ain't never done it (taught > the mythical "poetry > > appreciation class"). > > Good answer. > > > Anyway, there are so many anthologies, themed, > historical etc., that one > > is not bound to a particular anthology and can > explore the classroom > > successes and failures of many. > > And the students wouldn't be required to buy any > particular one? Of course, > you ignore the fact that there are no readily > available anthologies that > include more than an accidental specimen or two of > non-mainstream poetry, > and the specialized anthologies of such poetry (like > the one I co-edited of > visual poetry) would be too specialized for an > undergraduated class (and > expensive since not mass-produced). > > > Stick to the web. > > > > - Jim > > I think the web will probably someday solve the > problem. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From tadrichards Mon Apr 5 20:55:33 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:55:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> <027b01c41b5c$1feb6c00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4071EBDF.25F35E10@earthlink.net> <02ed01c41b6d$65caef00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00b901c41b71$de37cdb0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> You can do a fair amount with the web - if you're teaching a survey course in a period other than the 20th century. And I generally do. I don't want to have my students spending a lot of money that they really don't have to. But I don't subscribe to the idea that there's something wrong with Garrison Keillor, and something noble about denying him money. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College > > > > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > If I taught poetry appreciation in college, I would definitely NOT > > > require > > > > > my students to give people like Keillor and his publishers more > money. > > > I > > > > > would, like a prof I had, xerox up my own anthology and distribute > it > > > free > > > > > to students. Or put it on the Net. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try it, if you're doing this ON TOP OF a full-teaching rota. > > > > > > Okay, do some brainstorming. How about for your very first poetry > > > appreciation class > > > > What, in your mind, is a "poetry appreciation class"? > > Ooops, pure fantasy. In theory it would be a class in which someone > knowledgeable and enthusiastic about poetry taught a survey course in Poetry > in English. > > > > you have every student find a poem he likes and bring it > > > to class. Write it on the board > > > > That's one class session. > > > > > and everyone else copies it into a poetry > > > notebook for the class. He says why he likes it. > > > > There's another class session. > > > > > Discussion follows. The > > > teacher fills in the lacunae. > > > > And another. > > So? > > > > Surely, students can still copy poems off a > > > chalkboard without breaking copyright law? > > > > > > > Like Robin says, you ain't never done it (taught the mythical "poetry > > appreciation class"). > > Good answer. > > > Anyway, there are so many anthologies, themed, historical etc., that one > > is not bound to a particular anthology and can explore the classroom > > successes and failures of many. > > And the students wouldn't be required to buy any particular one? Of course, > you ignore the fact that there are no readily available anthologies that > include more than an accidental specimen or two of non-mainstream poetry, > and the specialized anthologies of such poetry (like the one I co-edited of > visual poetry) would be too specialized for an undergraduated class (and > expensive since not mass-produced). > > > Stick to the web. > > > > - Jim > > I think the web will probably someday solve the problem. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 21:00:03 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:00:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> <027b01c41b5c$1feb6c00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <009501c41b6d$2d644df0$b1cf8051@MyPC> Message-ID: <02fe01c41b72$808a8580$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I've done some teaching. I've had stuff copied from blackboards. An overhead projector would probably be easier. I've done that. But I'm also drawing on my experience as a long-term undergarduate. I remember a design course I took where everyone would make a design and tape it to the wall. Then we'd discuss one after the other. Am I a dreamer to think a class in which poems copied out of books and taped to the walls for discussion is possible? I'm not saying such a course would teach anyone anything, just that it would do the job as well as classes that mainstream publishers get rich off of do--and may help a few poets not repeating the poetry of the previous generations. > > Bob, do you KNOW how long it takes to write anything onto a blackboard, let > alone in a way that can be read by anyone two feet away from the front of a > class? > > Let alone how to FIND a bloody piece of chalk, even if there's a blackboard > that isn't so screwed it's virtually bloody impossible to write on it > without the chalk (if you can find a piece) squeeking like crazy and rubbing > everyone's nerves sideways. My high school has boards you write on quite easily and quickly with magic markers. But they also have some class rooms that use big monitors that seem a very fancy overhead to me. I don't know how they are used. Like laptop presentations, I guess. > Look, I hate to do this (no I don't, i love the chance, so there ) but > I've taught on every level from age 9 to dissertation-supervison, with in > the middle ESL/EFL, remedial English to adults, high school, the three > brands of English higher education (teacher training, outsourced degree and > straight [English] Universities on every level) so I kinda sorta know > whereof I speak. > > What haven't I taught? Well, I'd like to say I'd never taught Creative > Writing [or SF] either on the undergraduate or graduate (MFA) level, but > hey, everyone makes compromises. > > The bottom line is what you can teach depends partly on the physical > structures of where you are. Sure. I'm thinking of the kinds of classrooms I've been in as student and substitute teacher. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Mon Apr 5 21:04:06 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 02:04:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <024a01c41b49$3c06fcf0$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <003f01c41b4f$c8934ec0$b1cf8051@MyPC> <027b01c41b5c$1feb6c00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <4071EBDF.25F35E10@earthlink.net> <02ed01c41b6d$65caef00$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00a301c41b73$45970290$b1cf8051@MyPC> > > Bob Grumman wrote: > Ooops, pure fantasy. In theory it would be a class in which someone > knowledgeable and enthusiastic about poetry taught a survey course in Poetry > in English. Yup, pure fantasy. I had what lots of people on this list would give their eye teeth to do, a chance to write an "Appreciation to Poetry" course {excuse me while I puke over the term -- sorry, Jim }, the chance to write a course like this from the ground up, no constraints. Well, there were a few constraints ... L'bro only realised they needed this when they realised that even the best students they were getting were virtually illiterate in poetry. So I had an open cheque to write a course that would take in the Frosh at one end and at the other have kids signing-up for anything other than American Literature at the other. ... and I was doing this with a mix of students which ranged Jap kids who had English as a second language via sub-public school kids through urban comprehensive, you name it. ... and a back-up team running the seminars, no one of whom believed I could do it. I won. But it's not as simple as you make out, Jim. Basically, to do this, you simply don't give a flying fuck at the moon. SBT Robin > > > > you have every student find a poem he likes and bring it > > > to class. Write it on the board > > > > That's one class session. > > > > > and everyone else copies it into a poetry > > > notebook for the class. He says why he likes it. > > > > There's another class session. > > > > > Discussion follows. The > > > teacher fills in the lacunae. > > > > And another. > > So? > > > > Surely, students can still copy poems off a > > > chalkboard without breaking copyright law? > > > > > > > Like Robin says, you ain't never done it (taught the mythical "poetry > > appreciation class"). > > Good answer. > > > Anyway, there are so many anthologies, themed, historical etc., that one > > is not bound to a particular anthology and can explore the classroom > > successes and failures of many. > > And the students wouldn't be required to buy any particular one? Of course, > you ignore the fact that there are no readily available anthologies that > include more than an accidental specimen or two of non-mainstream poetry, > and the specialized anthologies of such poetry (like the one I co-edited of > visual poetry) would be too specialized for an undergraduated class (and > expensive since not mass-produced). > > > Stick to the web. > > > > - Jim > > I think the web will probably someday solve the problem. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 21:31:50 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:31:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <20040406004145.8931.qmail@web11605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <031c01c41b76$f103de70$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > For the most part, students hate poetry. Agreed. So it's better to use just two or three standard kinds of bait than ten or fifteen? > You attack the poetry establishment with montonous > regularity. If you're so damn mad about poetry, why > do you even worry? Why even write it? Why give a > crap about Gioia or Keillor? What's wrong with > accessible poems? What's wrong with an anthology > like Keillor's? I think improvement is possible? Not that I spend more than a few minutes a week bothering the self-satisfied academics here with my boiler-plate. Which, if you bothered to read it, only faults anthologies like Keillor's for narrowness. > Don't you think that if you made your own anthology, > you'd be committing the same egregious sins you > accuse other anthologists of? If I made my own GENERAL anthology of poetry, it would not cover the complete range of poetry, but it would cover it a great deal better than any mainstream anthology does, and it would not pretend to cover it. > Look--I know where you stand. You've made it clear in > many, many posts. I don't dismiss you. I don't > dismiss the value of your taxonomy (which I did take a > look at a few times. It's interesting. Cheers to > you). What I don't understand is your anger toward > anything that's not--well--something you like. > Am I misreading you? If so, I'm sorry. However, as > someone who loves poetry, as someone who attempts to > write it, I don't understand someone who attacks it > and claims to like it. I don't think you read me particularly well. Why don't you reread the post I wrote to start this thread. Where is the attack on any kind of poetry? My attack is not on mainstream poetry, but on the view that mainstream poetry is the only poetry there is that is of any worth. I don't think I have all that much anger, either: I simply tend to have a somewhat forceful style, I guess. And, when needled, needle back. I'm somewhat bitter, too. Why shouldn't I be. Take what I'm reacting to: a leading American poetry magazine in terms of academic and lay prestige, which has recently gotten a huge amount of money, has a debate between a third-rate critic and a possibly good poet who seems not to be much of a critic on what? A very minor and narrow anthology of mostly very conventional poems (some of them nonetheless admirable) edited by a celebrity. Meanwhile, I and those composing the kind of poetry I do, get a poem or two--as a group--into a semi-mainstream anthology like Poetry for the Millennium (or whatever it's called), a little recognition in a university or two where someone in our group teaches, and otherwise not even the dignity of scorn. But, don't worry, it's not eating my bowels and medulla oblongata out; mostly, I just try to make poems, and appreciations of others' poems, and publish micro-press chapbooks of poets whose work I like and carry on. --Bob G. From bardo Mon Apr 5 21:44:17 2004 From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:44:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <28.45a0db03.2d9f5a5d@aol.com> <024f01c41913$c30e3de0$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <005d01c41b78$ac427b00$6d94c044@MULDER> Bob, Could you clarify why you think subsidizing Shakespeare makes someone an enemy of poetry? Do you believe in a Progress of Poesy achieved only by Bloomian outdoing of one's predecessors? You wrote in an earlier post that "I tend to think every poem is an attempted translation of a previous poem. Some translations succeed, I think--but none succeeds in being accurate." By such a measure, the original, earlier version would seem superior to its translated shadows; does that not also apply to Shakespeare or any previous poet worth 'translating'? Backing your notion up a bit further, what would you identify as the ("accurate") Ur-poem which every poem tries unsuccessfully to translate? Curiouser and curiouser, Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Interesting. I don't think much of Dana Gioia's poetry, I'm sad to say; but he is a protector of poetry, and a great friend of it. I'm looking forward to this issue of poetry. D I'm sure he thinks he's protecting poetry, and that he's doing the best he can. His resistance to the newer forms of poetry, and championing of such things as more subsidized Shakespeare are only a few of the reasons I consider him more an enemy than a friend to poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bentley Mon Apr 5 21:55:51 2004 From: bentley (Bentley) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:55:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <20040406004145.8931.qmail@web11605.mail.yahoo.com> <031c01c41b76$f103de70$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <013801c41b7a$4a986d40$7c662745@S0028976576> It seems to me that there is a happy medium in this debate. (General disclaimer, I teach philosophy, not poetry). In my courses, I try to use a standard text of some sort -- generally an anthology of canonical works -- and supplement it with things that are either under-represented and/or might prove to be more interesting to the students. So you could use Keillor's book (which I haven't read, but do regularly listen to Writer's Almanac) or another affordable anthology, bring in some examples of more cutting edge work, and yes, have students (or you) bring in some exceptional song lyrics as well. Reaching recalcitrant undergraduates who are fulfilling a requirement is always a difficult task, especially when teaching something about which students have so little contact with before entering the classroom. This approach would be fairly affordable, represent the obscure, and offer a variety of ways to reach someone who might actually read poetry without the carrot of a grade later in life. Just a thought -- Bentley From bobgrumman Mon Apr 5 22:12:00 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:12:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <28.45a0db03.2d9f5a5d@aol.com> <024f01c41913$c30e3de0$35efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <005d01c41b78$ac427b00$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <035b01c41b7c$8ddc0d80$5aefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, Could you clarify why you think subsidizing Shakespeare makes someone an enemy of poetry? Will doesn't need subsidies. The money that goes to him is not going to contemporary poets--and playwrights. In fact, it's coming in part from them in the form of taxes, albeit in very small amounts. Do you believe in a Progress of Poesy achieved only by Bloomian outdoing of one's predecessors? I believe in a progress achieved in part by extending what others' have done, or by doing what one's predecessors did not do, thus joining them at their level rather than repeating them. But I also believe the best of us should hope to be able to use all that's been learned since one's predecessors to not so much outdo them as to make greater works, which is a different thing (as makers of contemporary computers make greater computers than Babbage's but don't outdo him). You wrote in an earlier post that "I tend to think every poem is an attempted translation of a previous poem. Some translations succeed, I think--but none succeeds in being accurate." By such a measure, the original, earlier version would seem superior to its translated shadows; No. Because a translation can be better than its source in spite or because of its inaccuracies. As Shakespeare was better than Holinshed. does that not also apply to Shakespeare or any previous poet worth 'translating'? Backing your notion up a bit further, what would you identify as the ("accurate") Ur-poem which every poem tries unsuccessfully to translate? Curiouser and curiouser, Dan Zimmerman Well, I was indulging in a little bit of semi-gnosticism or something, there. But around some core of truth, I think. I wasn't thinking about a "ur-poem." My first reaction to your question was that there are a bunch of ur-poems, not a single one. But maybe there is a single Ur- poem. Northrup Frye might say it would have a quest at its center. Maybe to do with the search for some kind of final meaning? Some kind of final understanding where truth, beauty and the good become one. Urp. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 6 00:49:39 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 00:49:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <1f0.1d49fc7f.2da390e3@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2004 9:13:26 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Could you clarify why you think subsidizing Shakespeare makes someone an > enemy of poetry? > > > Will doesn't need subsidies. The money that goes to him is not going to > contemporary poets--and playwrights. In fact, it's coming in part from them in > the form of taxes, albeit in very small amounts. > > It may be going to actors, directors, costume designers, set designers, and a whole host of other people who, as far as I can tell, are involved in the "arts"--which is not to mention the audiences who are enjoying these performances. Who in god's name claimed that the chief mission of the NEA ever was to give money to poets and playwrights and other creative artists? I always assumed it had some kind of responsibility to the 200 million or so Americans who are not on this list. And, Bob, the NEA's grants to writers has not suffered because of its support of the Shakespeare project. Your ranting against this project borders on the pathological. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Djoysgrape Tue Apr 6 02:55:03 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 02:55:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College Message-ID: <4BCA878B.16647550.0B0A44C0@aol.com> For the most part, students hate poetry. ?They think it's hard. ?They think that they have to have some kind of specialized knowledge to understand them. Good/bad poetry notwithstanding, they also think that anything worth reading out to reveal itself to them immediately if not sooner. ?Asking them to consider a piece of text closely is like trying to reason with a dog--they *look* they understand, smile a bit, but just keep on digging holes in your back yard. I agree. I don't know why this is so, although I suspect it has something to do with growing up with no books in the house, no tradition of reading great poems (or anything else) coming down from the parents, and no knowledge of how to teach poetry on the part of high school teachers. I've taught people going into high school teaching who approach poetry as someting painful but obligatory. I've heard people say things like "television has ruined students' ability to experience nuanced language" (paraphrasing Sven Birkarts (sp?), but I don't believe it. I think that poetry just isn't getting taught. I think this is an urgent subject and worth our time. I find it the most interesting spin off of the recent translation and anthology discussion. D From Djoysgrape Tue Apr 6 02:55:38 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 02:55:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College Message-ID: <08FC47FF.6AF52B7D.0B0A44C0@aol.com> PS I''ve taught in two year schools and empathize. From renkath Tue Apr 6 04:14:00 2004 From: renkath (Ren Powell) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:14:00 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I taught Poetry Appreciation in College Message-ID: I said I was going to lurk, but I've got too much time on my hands. . . I teach high school theater, not college poetry, but here's my suggestion. Why not make a list of 30 or so titles of contemporary poetry collections (not anthologies) and let the students choose a title to buy. What's that- 10 to 20 bucks? If they don't like the poems, they can swap with someone else in the class. They can all give a kind of book report about the collection in general and then copy one of the poems for the whole class to read. (If I'm right that goes under fair usage). Since Norton's anthology costs four times as much, I doubt students will mind paying so little for a book. This way: 1. you support small presses 2. students get to realize what a "book of poetry" is and 3. they may have to go to a good bookstore and browse through the shelves in the poetry section and who knows what they may find. My two cents. ren _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail http://www.hotmail.com Med markedets beste SPAM-filter. Gratis! From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 07:32:54 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 07:32:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <1f0.1d49fc7f.2da390e3@cs.com> Message-ID: <006701c41bca$e96bb3f0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Could you clarify why you think subsidizing Shakespeare makes someone an enemy of poetry? Will doesn't need subsidies. The money that goes to him is not going to contemporary poets--and playwrights. In fact, it's coming in part from them in the form of taxes, albeit in very small amounts. It may be going to actors, directors, costume designers, set designers, and a whole host of other people who, as far as I can tell, are involved in the "arts"--which is not to mention the audiences who are enjoying these performances. And would still be without the grants. But without the grants, they'd have a chance at similar enjoyment of plays by the contemporary playwrights who got the money instead--or whose plays were done by theatre companies who got the grants to do such works. Or to enjoy poetry by poets who got the grants or whose poetry was published by publishers given grants to publish contemporary poetry. Or this would give the same amount of jobs to someone. Moreover, it would expose people to something besides received art and--history tells us--would eventually come to enjoy, so it would be an investment in the future, rather than in stick to the tried and true--which already can get money elsewhere. Who in god's name claimed that the chief mission of the NEA ever was to give money to poets and playwrights and other creative artists? Whoever said it should not help them? I don't believe I said the NEA should only fund creative artists (though I do have the strange notion that the arts need them more than they need anyone else.) But the NEA is run by bureaucrats, so its money mostly goes to arts bureaucrats. I always assumed it had some kind of responsibility to the 200 million or so Americans who are not on this list. Right. It's a question of whether to give them still more Shakespeare, or help them broaden--and be fair to the many mostly near-penniless creative artists of today whom future NEA bureaucrats will be giving people large sums of money to perform or publish or exhibit. And, Bob, the NEA's grants to writers has not suffered because of its support of the Shakespeare project. Your ranting against this project borders on the pathological. I spoke out once against it this month, then explained why I spoke out against it. Ranting? As for the NEA's support of writers, I wasn't aware of any direct support. If it exists, it's miniscule. I don't think it's actually giving any or much money to actors and directors, either--just to arts bureaucrats. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 07:40:08 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 07:40:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <4BCA878B.16647550.0B0A44C0@aol.com> Message-ID: <007501c41bcb$eb3f9420$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > For the most part, students hate poetry. They think > it's hard. They think that they have to have some > kind of specialized knowledge to understand them. > Good/bad poetry notwithstanding, they also think that > anything worth reading out to reveal itself to them > immediately if not sooner. Asking them to consider a > piece of text closely is like trying to reason with a > dog--they *look* they understand, smile a bit, but > just keep on digging holes in your back yard. > > I agree. I don't know why this is so, although I suspect it has something to do with growing up with no books in the house, no tradition of reading great poems (or anything else) coming down from the parents, and no knowledge of how to teach poetry on the part of high school teachers. I've taught people going into high school teaching who approach poetry as someting painful but obligatory. I've heard people say things like "television has ruined students' ability to experience nuanced language" (paraphrasing Sven Birkarts (sp?), but I don't believe it. I think that poetry just isn't getting taught. THAT SEEMS THE KEY. IN MY HIGH SCHOOL I THINK ABOUT TWO OR THREE PERIODS OF ENGLISH CLASS A YEAR ARE DEVOTED TO IT. SHAKESPEARE IS TAUGHT AS STORIES. COLLEGES DO LITTLE MORE. ONE I WENT TO DIDN'T REQUIRE A FULL COURSE IN POETRY FOR AN ENGLISH DEGREE, WHICH WOULD BE LIKE NOT REQUIRING A COURSE IN CALCULUS FOR A DEGREE IN MATH. A STUDENT COULD GET AN ENGLISH DEGREE WITHOUT EVER READING A POEM--BECAUSE THEY COULD SKIP THEM IN THE FEW SURVEY COURSES THEY'D SHOW UP IN AND NOT WORRY THAT THEY'D LOSE MORE THAN FIVE OR TEN POINTS, MAXIMUM ON ONE OR TWO QUIZES. NO TIME TO SAY MORE NOW, BUT I BELIEVE MOST KIDS START SCHOOL WITH A LOVE OF RHYME AND BRIGHT IMAGES AND SIMPLE VISUAL DEVICES AND STORIES AND RHYTHM, AND IF EXPOSED CONSISTENTLY TO EVER-MORE-COMPLEX POEMS SHOULD BE ABLE TO APPRECIATE THEM MORE--THE STUDENTS THAT DEVELOP A LOVE OF READING, AT ANY RATE. --BOB G. (CAPS TO SET TEXT OFF FROM TEXT RESPONDED TO). From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 07:41:44 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 07:41:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: Message-ID: <008801c41bcc$24a555b0$63efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I said I was going to lurk, but I've got too much time on my hands. . . > > I teach high school theater, not college poetry, but here's my suggestion. > Why not make a list of 30 or so titles of contemporary poetry collections > (not anthologies) and let the students choose a title to buy. What's that- > 10 to 20 bucks? If they don't like the poems, they can swap with someone > else in the class. They can all give a kind of book report about the > collection in general and then copy one of the poems for the whole class to > read. (If I'm right that goes under fair usage). > > Since Norton's anthology costs four times as much, I doubt students will > mind paying so little for a book. This way: 1. you support small presses 2. > students get to realize what a "book of poetry" is and 3. they may have to > go to a good bookstore and browse through the shelves in the poetry section > and who knows what they may find. > > My two cents. > > ren > Makes sense to me. The teacher could have a bunch of books available for them to look through in advance. --Bob G. From lcrew Tue Apr 6 08:08:42 2004 From: lcrew (Louie Crew) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 08:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College In-Reply-To: <4BCA878B.16647550.0B0A44C0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Apr 6 2:55am Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote: > For the most part, students hate poetry. ?They think > it's hard. ?They think that they have to have some > kind of specialized knowledge to understand them. > Good/bad poetry notwithstanding, they also think that > anything worth reading out to reveal itself to them > immediately if not sooner. ?Asking them to consider a > piece of text closely is like trying to reason with a > dog--they *look* they understand, smile a bit, but > just keep on digging holes in your back yard. You won't get very far in trying to persuade people to join any enterprise if you think reasoning with them "is like trying to reason with a dog." That attitude will walk in front of you like a distorting mirror regardless of how carefully you try to hide it. Each person is a human being with a precious treasure for a mind, and it is important that teachers have great expectations about the student's joy in discovering more access to it. Nor should anyone want "to consider a piece of text closely" merely because someone else says to do so, unless that someone else has won her respect or seduced her mind. If we are going to lead people out (educare), it's best to start where they are. If they demand "that anything worth reading [ought] to reveal itself to them," we might begin with poetry which has already done that for them. Some of the best papers students have written for me have been papers comparing lyrics of a song they hated with the lyrics of a song they like immensely. In the richest of these papers they begin to discover clues to their own taste; and in some of these, they even reject their first judgments, discovering higher standards on their own. I have never had a student who had any trouble with the assignment. It's less difficult to lead students into new enthusiasms when we respect the enthusiasms students already have. One of my former students who is a much better poet than I will ever be says that he never cared a whit for poetry until the morning in the 1960s at the University of Alabama when I took a thrown-away coffee cup out of the trash can and for resonance recited into it from memory Wordsworth's sonnet "The world is too much with us." "I heard poetry for the first time," he told me, "and I knew I wanted it as a part of my life." Will that 'method' work for everyone else, or every time? Of course not. Probably most of his classmates that morning were concentrating on the yuck factor of that dirty cup. That wasn't even part of my 'lesson plan' which took 99% of the class time; it was a spontaneous act of enthusiasm. A dirty coffee cup might work for one, a Madeleine wafer to another, a red wheelbarrow for another..... Shamans are in the business of mystery and need a multitude of charms. We are seed planters, not harvesters. We are not responsible for the quality of the soil. We hurl our seeds everywhere. Another former student came up to me at a poetry reading I gave at Callanwolde in Atlanta thirty years ago to say, "You're the reason I am no longer a lawyer, but an English teacher." He said it more as annunciation than as accusation. "How did that happen?" I asked. His father was president of a college, and I figured growing up in academic settings may have had more to do with his choice. He had been my student in the fourth form of a prep school. "One day you read a Cummings poem to our class and then jumped up on the desk and exclaimed, `I wish I had written that.' Ten years later I was bored stiff as a lawyer and thought over all the people I had known asking, 'Who was the happiest in his work?' Clearly you were. I want to spend my life doing what I enjoy enough to jump on a desk about." Quean Lutibelle/Louie, Pied Piper Too arthritic now to dare risk jumping up even on a stool http://www.andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/poetry.html From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 6 08:25:27 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 08:25:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <5b.4b746779.2da3fbb7@cs.com> In a message dated 4/6/2004 6:33:41 AM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > I spoke out once against it this month, then explained why I spoke out > against it. Ranting? As for the NEA's support of writers, I wasn't aware of any > direct support. If it exists, it's miniscule. I don't think it's actually > giving any or much money to actors and directors, either--just to arts > bureaucrats. > > --Bob G. > The NEA gives direct support in the form of grants to poets, prose writers, and translators, in addition to institutional grants. This url lists them: http://www.nea.gov/grants/recent/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 11:50:26 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 11:50:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: Message-ID: <004401c41bee$e2f65f60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Can't find a thing to disagree with below. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louie Crew" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College > On Apr 6 2:55am Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote: > > > For the most part, students hate poetry. They think > > it's hard. They think that they have to have some > > kind of specialized knowledge to understand them. > > Good/bad poetry notwithstanding, they also think that > > anything worth reading out to reveal itself to them > > immediately if not sooner. Asking them to consider a > > piece of text closely is like trying to reason with a > > dog--they *look* they understand, smile a bit, but > > just keep on digging holes in your back yard. > > You won't get very far in trying to persuade people to join any > enterprise if you think reasoning with them "is like trying to reason > with a dog." That attitude will walk in front of you like a > distorting mirror regardless of how carefully you try to hide it. > > Each person is a human being with a precious treasure for a mind, and > it is important that teachers have great expectations about the > student's joy in discovering more access to it. > > Nor should anyone want "to consider a piece of text closely" merely > because someone else says to do so, unless that someone else has won > her respect or seduced her mind. > > If we are going to lead people out (educare), it's best to start where > they are. If they demand "that anything worth reading [ought] to > reveal itself to them," we might begin with poetry which has already > done that for them. Some of the best papers students have written for > me have been papers comparing lyrics of a song they hated with the > lyrics of a song they like immensely. In the richest of these papers > they begin to discover clues to their own taste; and in some of these, > they even reject their first judgments, discovering higher standards > on their own. I have never had a student who had any trouble with the > assignment. > > It's less difficult to lead students into new enthusiasms when we > respect the enthusiasms students already have. > > One of my former students who is a much better poet than I will ever > be says that he never cared a whit for poetry until the morning in the > 1960s at the University of Alabama when I took a thrown-away coffee > cup out of the trash can and for resonance recited into it from memory > Wordsworth's sonnet "The world is too much with us." "I heard poetry > for the first time," he told me, "and I knew I wanted it as a part of > my life." > > Will that 'method' work for everyone else, or every time? Of course > not. Probably most of his classmates that morning were concentrating > on the yuck factor of that dirty cup. That wasn't even part of my > 'lesson plan' which took 99% of the class time; it was a spontaneous > act of enthusiasm. A dirty coffee cup might work for one, a Madeleine > wafer to another, a red wheelbarrow for another..... > > Shamans are in the business of mystery and need a multitude of charms. > We are seed planters, not harvesters. We are not responsible for the > quality of the soil. We hurl our seeds everywhere. > > Another former student came up to me at a poetry reading I gave at > Callanwolde in Atlanta thirty years ago to say, "You're the reason I > am no longer a lawyer, but an English teacher." He said it more as > annunciation than as accusation. > > "How did that happen?" I asked. His father was president of a > college, and I figured growing up in academic settings may have had > more to do with his choice. He had been my student in the fourth form > of a prep school. > > "One day you read a Cummings poem to our class and then jumped up on > the desk and exclaimed, `I wish I had written that.' Ten years later I > was bored stiff as a lawyer and thought over all the people I had > known asking, 'Who was the happiest in his work?' Clearly you were. > I want to spend my life doing what I enjoy enough to jump on a desk > about." > > Quean Lutibelle/Louie, Pied Piper > Too arthritic now to dare risk jumping up even on a stool > > http://www.andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/poetry.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jnewberry1974 Tue Apr 6 12:12:37 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 09:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College In-Reply-To: <004401c41bee$e2f65f60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20040406161237.85758.qmail@web11601.mail.yahoo.com> Louie and Bob, Perhaps my dog comment seemed a bit underhanded, but I don't think of it as. I teach nonmajors. They don't give a damn about literature, particularly about poetry. That's the truth. If you don't believe me, I dare you to walk a mile in my shoes. I do care about my students. Assuming that I don't is just plain wrong. I do, however, get frustrated with them when they insist that everything I do is either a) unworthy of their time or b) unworthy of *anyone's* time. Once in class, I spoke of a professor I had in college, the distinguished research professor who taught my Hemingway seminar in graduate school. My students wanted to know what a person who taught literature researched. When I explained to them the kinds of things that my professor wrote, their general attitude was "he's riding the taxpayer's coat tails." Don't lecture me about the value of human beings. I know more about that than either of you realize. The mirror metaphor does nothing for me, either. My students respect me as much as I respect them: quite a lot. Whenever I teach literature, I find the occasional student who really understands what's going on because he or she cares about the class and cares about his or her pursuit of knowledge. I urge you to walk into a local junior college or tech school. Both are predominantly filled with students who want degrees and want the money they believe that the degrees will bring. Only the occasional student is interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake. They're pragmatic to a fault: "What does the study of poetry do for you?" "Well, it makes you more aware of language and it offers you a chance to remember your own humanitiy." "So?" This is the attitude that most students have toward the study of literature. I've used songs in class, as well; I've let students write about television programs. So, your dismissive and reductive understanding of my post misrepresents me at worst and is a plain lie at best. The truth is that most students want things to be easy--Hell, I did when I was a student. And Bob, how can you not disagree with the post below. You spend your time ranting and raving about poetry that, in your limited view, does nothing and goes nowhere, and yet you applaud plan to show poetry to students that's accesible? Do you not see the contradiction? I'm done with this thread. I won't be pulled into a Bales/Grumman war, despite what you may want. My dog comments wasn't meant to belittle my students--despite what you might think. I happen to like dogs. I also happen to respect my students. What I don't respect is a rehash of "Dead Poet's Society" or a lecture on how to teach. The presumptiousness of it astounds me. I love my job, and I wouldn't *ever* want to do anything else. I do occasionally inspire my students, despite what you might think. Jeff Newberry --- Bob Grumman wrote: > Can't find a thing to disagree with below. > > --Bob G. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Louie Crew" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 8:08 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry > Appreciation in College > > > > On Apr 6 2:55am Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote: > > > > > For the most part, students hate poetry. They > think > > > it's hard. They think that they have to have > some > > > kind of specialized knowledge to understand > them. > > > Good/bad poetry notwithstanding, they also think > that > > > anything worth reading out to reveal itself to > them > > > immediately if not sooner. Asking them to > consider a > > > piece of text closely is like trying to reason > with a > > > dog--they *look* they understand, smile a bit, > but > > > just keep on digging holes in your back yard. > > > > You won't get very far in trying to persuade > people to join any > > enterprise if you think reasoning with them "is > like trying to reason > > with a dog." That attitude will walk in front of > you like a > > distorting mirror regardless of how carefully you > try to hide it. > > > > Each person is a human being with a precious > treasure for a mind, and > > it is important that teachers have great > expectations about the > > student's joy in discovering more access to it. > > > > Nor should anyone want "to consider a piece of > text closely" merely > > because someone else says to do so, unless that > someone else has won > > her respect or seduced her mind. > > > > If we are going to lead people out (educare), it's > best to start where > > they are. If they demand "that anything worth > reading [ought] to > > reveal itself to them," we might begin with poetry > which has already > > done that for them. Some of the best papers > students have written for > > me have been papers comparing lyrics of a song > they hated with the > > lyrics of a song they like immensely. In the > richest of these papers > > they begin to discover clues to their own taste; > and in some of these, > > they even reject their first judgments, > discovering higher standards > > on their own. I have never had a student who had > any trouble with the > > assignment. > > > > It's less difficult to lead students into new > enthusiasms when we > > respect the enthusiasms students already have. > > > > One of my former students who is a much better > poet than I will ever > > be says that he never cared a whit for poetry > until the morning in the > > 1960s at the University of Alabama when I took a > thrown-away coffee > > cup out of the trash can and for resonance recited > into it from memory > > Wordsworth's sonnet "The world is too much with > us." "I heard poetry > > for the first time," he told me, "and I knew I > wanted it as a part of > > my life." > > > > Will that 'method' work for everyone else, or > every time? Of course > > not. Probably most of his classmates that morning > were concentrating > > on the yuck factor of that dirty cup. That wasn't > even part of my > > 'lesson plan' which took 99% of the class time; it > was a spontaneous > > act of enthusiasm. A dirty coffee cup might work > for one, a Madeleine > > wafer to another, a red wheelbarrow for > another..... > > > > Shamans are in the business of mystery and need a > multitude of charms. > > We are seed planters, not harvesters. We are not > responsible for the > > quality of the soil. We hurl our seeds > everywhere. > > > > Another former student came up to me at a poetry > reading I gave at > > Callanwolde in Atlanta thirty years ago to say, > "You're the reason I > > am no longer a lawyer, but an English teacher." > He said it more as > > annunciation than as accusation. > > > > "How did that happen?" I asked. His father was > president of a > > college, and I figured growing up in academic > settings may have had > > more to do with his choice. He had been my > student in the fourth form > > of a prep school. > > > > "One day you read a Cummings poem to our class and > then jumped up on > > the desk and exclaimed, `I wish I had written > that.' Ten years later I > > was bored stiff as a lawyer and thought over all > the people I had > > known asking, 'Who was the happiest in his work?' > Clearly you were. > > I want to spend my life doing what I enjoy enough > to jump on a desk > > about." > > > > Quean Lutibelle/Louie, Pied Piper > > Too arthritic now to dare risk jumping up even on > a stool > > > > > http://www.andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/poetry.html > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 12:27:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:27:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia v. Kleinzahler References: <5b.4b746779.2da3fbb7@cs.com> Message-ID: <00a901c41bf3$ff192f60$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 4/6/2004 6:33:41 AM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: I spoke out once against it this month, then explained why I spoke out against it. Ranting? As for the NEA's support of writers, I wasn't aware of any direct support. If it exists, it's miniscule. I thought the NEA had stopped giving out individual grants. Maybe I was wrong, or right but they started giving them out again. 10% of its grants are to writers. But only about 5% of its money goes to individuals. Not quite miniscule--$20,000 to each writer (around 50 of them). Most of its money goes to arts administrators, however. I don't think it's actually giving any or much money to actors and directors, either--just to arts bureaucrats. --Bob G. The NEA gives direct support in the form of grants to poets, prose writers, and translators, in addition to institutional grants. This url lists them: http://www.nea.gov/grants/recent/index.html --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcrew Tue Apr 6 12:44:09 2004 From: lcrew (Louie Crew) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College In-Reply-To: <20040406161237.85758.qmail@web11601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > What I don't respect is a rehash of "Dead Poet's Society" or a > lecture on how to teach. The presumptiousness of it astounds me. Why is it presumptuous of me to share my experiences but not presumptious of you to do the same? I welcome the chance to read about your experiences. I believe that I would enjoy having you as a teacher. You still don't convince me that your students are as closed to poetry as they might say or think they are. Whether teaching in a secondary school in the London slums or a fancy boarding school in the US, in a small black college in the rural South, at Chinese University in Hong Kong, at The Beijing Foreign Language Institute, or at any of several large state university, I have found that the setting can inhibit students' openness to poetry only with the teacher's consent. Quean Lutibelle/Louie P.S. Robin Williams did have my old schoolmaster's room at St. Andrew's School in Delaware when they later filmed the DEAD POETS' SOCIETY there. I taught there from 1962-65. St. Andrew's was a much finer place than the one in the film. From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 12:51:37 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:51:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <20040406161237.85758.qmail@web11601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00eb01c41bf7$6ee8d040$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > And Bob, how can you not disagree with the post below. > You spend your time ranting and raving about poetry > that, in your limited view, does nothing and goes > nowhere, and yet you applaud plans to show poetry to > students that's accessible? Do you not see the > contradiction? Okay, maybe I didn't agree with everything, but I liked the idea of comparing "bad" lyrics to "good" lyrics. And trying to reach students. I keep telling you that I'm not against accessible poetry, I'm just against teaching nothing but accessible poetry, or ANY ONE KIND OF POETRY. > I'm done with this thread. I won't be pulled into a > Bales/Grumman war, despite what you may want. I'm bothered that you think that. Maybe I'm completely out of it, but I feel I've been bandying ideas about how best to teach a poetry appreciation class or the equivalent, which interests me. Yes, I've managed to slam the Establishment a bit, but not as completely as I seem to get accused of. Apparently no one seems to be able to understand that there's a difference between being against teaching little or nothing but Keillor-certified poems and teaching poems from many schools of poetry INCLUDING the ones Keiller gets poems from. > My dog > comments wasn't meant to belittle my students--despite > what you might think. I never thought they were. Which is why I wasn't aware Louie was replying to you. I like just about all the many students I have (as a sub, I get a lot), but I have a very low opinion of the willingness to grow intellectually of most of them. So I think I may know what you're saying. > I happen to like dogs. I also > happen to respect my students. What I don't respect > is a rehash of "Dead Poet's Society" or a lecture on > how to teach. Okay. I took Louie as just giving one slant, not so much coming down on you. > The presumptiousness of it astounds me. I love my job, > and I wouldn't *ever* want to do anything else. I do > occasionally inspire my students, despite what you > might think. > > Jeff Newberry Jeff, you're way too sensitive. --Bob G. > > > --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > Can't find a thing to disagree with below. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Louie Crew" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 8:08 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry > > Appreciation in College > > > > > > > On Apr 6 2:55am Djoysgrape at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > For the most part, students hate poetry. They > > think > > > > it's hard. They think that they have to have > > some > > > > kind of specialized knowledge to understand > > them. > > > > Good/bad poetry notwithstanding, they also think > > that > > > > anything worth reading out to reveal itself to > > them > > > > immediately if not sooner. Asking them to > > consider a > > > > piece of text closely is like trying to reason > > with a > > > > dog--they *look* they understand, smile a bit, > > but > > > > just keep on digging holes in your back yard. > > > > > > You won't get very far in trying to persuade > > people to join any > > > enterprise if you think reasoning with them "is > > like trying to reason > > > with a dog." That attitude will walk in front of > > you like a > > > distorting mirror regardless of how carefully you > > try to hide it. > > > > > > Each person is a human being with a precious > > treasure for a mind, and > > > it is important that teachers have great > > expectations about the > > > student's joy in discovering more access to it. > > > > > > Nor should anyone want "to consider a piece of > > text closely" merely > > > because someone else says to do so, unless that > > someone else has won > > > her respect or seduced her mind. > > > > > > If we are going to lead people out (educare), it's > > best to start where > > > they are. If they demand "that anything worth > > reading [ought] to > > > reveal itself to them," we might begin with poetry > > which has already > > > done that for them. Some of the best papers > > students have written for > > > me have been papers comparing lyrics of a song > > they hated with the > > > lyrics of a song they like immensely. In the > > richest of these papers > > > they begin to discover clues to their own taste; > > and in some of these, > > > they even reject their first judgments, > > discovering higher standards > > > on their own. I have never had a student who had > > any trouble with the > > > assignment. > > > > > > It's less difficult to lead students into new > > enthusiasms when we > > > respect the enthusiasms students already have. > > > > > > One of my former students who is a much better > > poet than I will ever > > > be says that he never cared a whit for poetry > > until the morning in the > > > 1960s at the University of Alabama when I took a > > thrown-away coffee > > > cup out of the trash can and for resonance recited > > into it from memory > > > Wordsworth's sonnet "The world is too much with > > us." "I heard poetry > > > for the first time," he told me, "and I knew I > > wanted it as a part of > > > my life." > > > > > > Will that 'method' work for everyone else, or > > every time? Of course > > > not. Probably most of his classmates that morning > > were concentrating > > > on the yuck factor of that dirty cup. That wasn't > > even part of my > > > 'lesson plan' which took 99% of the class time; it > > was a spontaneous > > > act of enthusiasm. A dirty coffee cup might work > > for one, a Madeleine > > > wafer to another, a red wheelbarrow for > > another..... > > > > > > Shamans are in the business of mystery and need a > > multitude of charms. > > > We are seed planters, not harvesters. We are not > > responsible for the > > > quality of the soil. We hurl our seeds > > everywhere. > > > > > > Another former student came up to me at a poetry > > reading I gave at > > > Callanwolde in Atlanta thirty years ago to say, > > "You're the reason I > > > am no longer a lawyer, but an English teacher." > > He said it more as > > > annunciation than as accusation. > > > > > > "How did that happen?" I asked. His father was > > president of a > > > college, and I figured growing up in academic > > settings may have had > > > more to do with his choice. He had been my > > student in the fourth form > > > of a prep school. > > > > > > "One day you read a Cummings poem to our class and > > then jumped up on > > > the desk and exclaimed, `I wish I had written > > that.' Ten years later I > > > was bored stiff as a lawyer and thought over all > > the people I had > > > known asking, 'Who was the happiest in his work?' > > Clearly you were. > > > I want to spend my life doing what I enjoy enough > > to jump on a desk > > > about." > > > > > > Quean Lutibelle/Louie, Pied Piper > > > Too arthritic now to dare risk jumping up even on > > a stool > > > > > > > > http://www.andromeda.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/poetry.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MillB Tue Apr 6 15:12:32 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:12:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College Message-ID: <1ee.1d57dbd1.2da45b20@aol.com> Bob G, The ground rules improved the exercise--so did bringing in old magazines and books, to pass around before they went on their poetry hunt. I like your idea about the carton of poems! I do that with freewrites, but the students themselves make up the topics to write about. It's a whole semester project, but here's an example: I have students write down events and significant times in their life: first birthday they remember, sick day, summer camp, favorite food, best friends, Easter, first job, next door neighbor. . . then, they pull one out and write about it, not knowing what they will select. Cheers, Mill I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters. Frank Lloyd Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue Apr 6 16:47:13 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:47:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner Message-ID: <77.26147f9c.2da47151@aol.com> Subj: Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner Date: 4/6/04 9:31:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (Knopf Poetry) Yesterday, it was announced that Franz Wright won the 2004 Pulitzer Prize in Poetry for WALKING TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD, a collection in which the poet shares his belief in the promise of life's blessing and renewal. *************************************** Walden Sunlight and silence stood at a bend in the path suddenly; wind moved, once, over the dark water and I was back. Far from the world of appearances, the world of "gain and mirth." So soon there will be nobody here going on about death and pain and change. No one here! Spoking hallways of pines where the owl, eyes wide open, dreams-- there is a power that wants me to live, I don't know why. Then I saw again the turtle like a massive haunted head lumbering after the egg laying toward the water and vanishing into the water, slowly soaring in that element half underworld, half sky. There is a power that wants me to love. *************************************** From terzarima Tue Apr 6 16:55:46 2004 From: terzarima (terzarima at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:55:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner Message-ID: <2920-22004426205546698@M2W056.mail2web.com> Oh, this is good news! He is an excellent poet and translator, whose work I have loved ever since I heard him read at UMass. Have you read his translations of Rilke? --Suzanne -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From JforJames Tue Apr 6 17:15:31 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 17:15:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New England Region: JUNIPER LITERARY FESTIVAL Message-ID: <54.264808f8.2da477f3@aol.com> > Please join us for the > 4th ANNUAL JUNIPER LITERARY FESTIVAL > > May 7-8, 2004 > The University of Massachusetts ? Amherst > Memorial Hall > > FRIDAY, MAY 7: > 5pm Opening reception for the Book and Journal Fair > > 8pm Fiction readings by Amy Hempel and David Gates > > SATURDAY, MAY 8: > 11am Question and Answer Forum with Amy Hempel and > David Gates > > 2pm Address by Marjorie Perloff: > "The Poetics of Cultural Estrangement: Viennese High > Culture and the New York School" > > 3:15pm Issues in Independent Publishing Roundtable > "Literary Journals and Presses - In Culture, As > Culture" > with: Eric Lorberer (Rain Taxi, moderator), Carol Ann > Davis (Crazyhorse), Christian Hawkey (jubilat), Allan > Kornblum (Coffeehouse Press), Vincent Standley (3rd > bed), Matthew Zapruder (Verse Press) > > 8pm Poetry reading by John Ashbery > > Participants in the Book and Journal Fair: 3rd bed, > Coffeehouse Press, Conduit, Fence, Fulcrum, jubilat, > The Massachusetts Review, NowCulture, Open City, Paris > Press, Perugia Press, Rain Taxi, Slope, Small Beer > Press, The Univ. of Mass. Press, Verse Press. > > All events take place in Memorial Hall at the > University of Massachusetts and are free and open to > the public. > > A yearly gathering of writers, editors, publishers, > scholars, and readers, the Juniper Festival is > dedicated to the exploration of issues vital to the > literary arts. It presents important new creative, > editorial, and scholarly work through public readings, > addresses, forums, and a journal and book fair. A > journal and book fair will run throughout the > Festival, filling Memorial Hall with books and > magazines produced through independent literary > publishing. > > For more information, email juniper at hfa.umass.edu > Lisa Olstein, Director, Juniper Festival > From JforJames Tue Apr 6 17:57:10 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 17:57:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience Message-ID: <1e8.1d33f56c.2da481b6@aol.com> Ted Hughes in "Words & Experience", from_Strong Words_ (a collection of essays & statements of poetics by Modernist & late 20th C poets)... "...how are we to say what we see in a crow's flight? Is it not enough to say the crow flies purposefully, or heavily, or rowingly, or whatever. There are no words to capture the infinite depth of crowiness in the crow's flight. All we can do is use a word as an indicator, or a whole bunch of words as a directive. But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. And a bookload of such descriptions is immediately rubbish when you look up and see the crow flying." (& later) "In a way, words are continually trying to displace our experience. And in so far as they are stronger than the raw life of our experience, and full of themselves and all the dictionaries they have digested, they do displace it." From paul.lake Tue Apr 6 18:23:52 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 17:23:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner In-Reply-To: <77.26147f9c.2da47151@aol.com> Message-ID: on 4/6/04 3:47 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Subj: Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner > Date: 4/6/04 9:31:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (Knopf Poetry) > > Yesterday, it was announced that Franz Wright won the 2004 Pulitzer > Prize in Poetry for WALKING TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD, a collection in > which the poet shares his belief in the promise of life's blessing and > renewal. > > *************************************** > > Walden > > > Sunlight and silence stood at a bend in the path suddenly; > wind moved, once, over the dark water > and I was back. > Far from the world of appearances, > the world of "gain and mirth." > So soon > there will be nobody > > here going on > about death > and pain and change. No one here! > Spoking hallways of pines where the owl, eyes wide open, dreams-- > there is a power that wants me to live, I don't know why. > Then I saw again > the turtle > > like a massive haunted head > lumbering after the egg laying toward > the water and vanishing > into the water, slowly > soaring > in that element half underworld, half sky. > There is a power that wants me to love. > > *************************************** > >> From WALKING TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD by Franz Wright, copyright 2003. > Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random > House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be > reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the > publisher. > > *************************************** > > Related links: > > About WALKING TO MARTHA?S VINEYARD: > > randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?0375415181 > > About Franz Wright: > > randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=33786 > > Send Franz Wright's poem, "The Way We Look to Them", as an e-card: > > randomhouse.com/knopf/ecards/franzwright2/ > > Print a broadside of Franz Wright's poem "Request": > > randomhouse.com/knopf/poetry/broadsides/Request.pdf > > Discuss " Walden " in the Knopf Poetry Forum: > > aaknopf.com/poetry/forum > > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Bleh! That last line. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jvcervantes Tue Apr 6 18:40:16 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 15:40:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience References: <1e8.1d33f56c.2da481b6@aol.com> Message-ID: <407331D0.F88B4C29@earthlink.net> FLASH: Hughes Eats Crow! - Jim JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Ted Hughes in "Words & Experience", from_Strong Words_ > (a collection of essays & statements of poetics by Modernist > & late 20th C poets)... > "...how are we to say what we see in a crow's flight? Is it not enough > to say the crow flies purposefully, or heavily, or rowingly, or whatever. > There are no words to capture the infinite depth of crowiness in the > crow's flight. All we can do is use a word as an indicator, or a whole > bunch of words as a directive. But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. And a bookload > of such descriptions is immediately rubbish when you look up and > see the crow flying." > (& later) > "In a way, words are continually trying to displace our experience. > And in so far as they are stronger than the raw life of our experience, > and full of themselves and all the dictionaries they have digested, > they do displace it." > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 19:03:42 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:03:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If I Taught Poetry Appreciation in College References: <1ee.1d57dbd1.2da45b20@aol.com> Message-ID: <019e01c41c2b$69c47270$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob G, The ground rules improved the exercise--so did bringing in old magazines and books, to pass around before they went on their poetry hunt. I like your idea about the carton of poems! I do that with freewrites, but the students themselves make up the topics to write about. It's a whole semester project, but here's an example: I have students write down events and significant times in their life: first birthday they remember, sick day, summer camp, favorite food, best friends, Easter, first job, next door neighbor. . . then, they pull one out and write about it, not knowing what they will select. Cheers, Mill I'd praise your idea and spirit, Mill, but I'm not sure I should: I seem to anger people even more when I'm positive about a post than when I'm my usual self. Ha, I just thought of a silly idea that would be pretty effective, anyway. Each student finds a poem and writes an anonymous critique of it on a separate page--without quoting any part of it, or mentioning its subject! In class, pass the critiques out randomly, and pin the poems up. Each student has to find the poem the critique he got refers to. This might help students see what bad criticism does. But maybe this is too advanced /difficult an assignment. Might be good to try on working critics of poetry! --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 19:17:36 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 19:17:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner References: Message-ID: <01de01c41c2d$5ac6f1b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > Walden > > > > > > Sunlight and silence stood at a bend in the path suddenly; > > wind moved, once, over the dark water > > and I was back. > > Far from the world of appearances, > > the world of "gain and mirth." > > So soon > > there will be nobody > > > > here going on > > about death > > and pain and change. No one here! > > Spoking hallways of pines where the owl, eyes wide open, dreams-- > > there is a power that wants me to live, I don't know why. > > Then I saw again > > the turtle > > > > like a massive haunted head > > lumbering after the egg laying toward > > the water and vanishing > > into the water, slowly > > soaring > > in that element half underworld, half sky. > > There is a power that wants me to love. > Bleh! That last line. Which the poem inexorably leads straight to. --Bob G. From JforJames Tue Apr 6 20:25:04 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:25:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience Message-ID: <1e8.1d36e36e.2da4a460@aol.com> In a message dated 4/6/2004 6:48:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > FLASH: Hughes Eats Crow! > > Do you mean he does what he says can't be done? I think the beauty of that passage is that you can hear a nagging dissatisfaction. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 6 20:43:17 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:43:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience References: <1e8.1d36e36e.2da4a460@aol.com> Message-ID: <026a01c41c39$53c99550$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> FLASH: Hughes Eats Crow! Do you mean he does what he says can't be done? I think the beauty of that passage is that you can hear a nagging dissatisfaction. Finnegan I thought he contradicted himself--but I can't say I fully followed the second quotation. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 6 23:08:27 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 23:08:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner Message-ID: <15d.31f5f344.2da4caab@cs.com> In a message dated 4/6/2004 6:18:42 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > >>Walden > >> > >> > >>Sunlight and silence stood at a bend in the path suddenly; > >>wind moved, once, over the dark water > >>and I was back. > >>Far from the world of appearances, > >>the world of "gain and mirth." > >>So soon > >>there will be nobody > >> > >>here going on > >>about death > >>and pain and change. No one here! > >>Spoking hallways of pines where the owl, eyes wide open, dreams-- > >>there is a power that wants me to live, I don't know why. > >>Then I saw again > >>the turtle > >> > >>like a massive haunted head > >>lumbering after the egg laying toward > >>the water and vanishing > >>into the water, slowly > >>soaring > >>in that element half underworld, half sky. > >>There is a power that wants me to love. > > > > Bleh! That last line. > > Which the poem inexorably leads straight to. > Or "I have wasted my life." Would have been better as "I have waisted my life." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 6 23:09:33 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 23:09:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience Message-ID: In a message dated 4/6/2004 7:44:46 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > FLASH: Hughes Eats Crow! > > > >> >> >> Do you mean he does what he says can't >> be done? I think the beauty of that passage >> is that you can hear a nagging dissatisfaction. >> Finnegan >> >> I thought he contradicted himself--but I can't say I fully followed the >> second quotation. >> >> --Bob G. >> > The potent poison quite o'ercrows his spirit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 6 23:14:17 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 23:14:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards Message-ID: <142.263b8b30.2da4cc09@cs.com> OK, I'm being shameless, but I'm very happy about this news! AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ARTS AND LETTERS HONORS 19 WRITERS WITH AWARDS New York, April 6, 2004 - The American Academy of Arts and Letters announced today the names of 19 writers who will receive its 2004 awards in literature. The awards will be presented in New York on May 19th at the Academy's annual Ceremonial. The literature prizes, totaling nearly $180,000 this year, honor both established and emerging writers of fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. The Academy's 250 members nominate candidates, and a rotating committee of writers selects winners. The members of the 2004 committee were Anthony Hecht, John Hollander, Romulus Linney, Reynolds Price, Jane Smiley, and Edmund White. Academy Awards in Literature Eight awards of $7,500 each honor writers of exceptional accomplishment in any genre. HENRI COLE MARILYN HACKER SAMUEL HYNES ARNOST LUSTIG JOE ASHBY PORTER LOUIS D. RUBIN PAULA VOGEL GREG WILLIAMSON Benjamin H. Danks Award $20,000 given to encourage a young writer of fiction, non-fiction, or poetry. DOUG WRIGHT E.M. Forster Award $15,000 to a young writer from England, Ireland, Scotland, or Wales for a stay in the United States. Award jury: Robert Creeley, Donald Hall, Alison Lurie. ROBIN ROBERTSON Sue Kaufman Prize for First Fiction $2,500 for the best work of first fiction (novel or short stories) published in 2003. NELL FREUDENBERGER, Lucky Girls Award of Merit for Poetry A medal and $10,000 given once every six years, to an outstanding poet. ROSANNA WARREN Katherine Anne Porter Award A biennial award of $20,000, given to a writer of prose. NICHOLSON BAKER Rome Fellowships in Literature One-year residency (2004-2005) at the American Academy in Rome. ANTHONY DOERR, writer LISA WILLIAMS, poet Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Foundation Award $5,000 for fiction of considerable literary accomplishment published in the preceding year. OLYMPIA VERNON, Eden Harold D. Vursell Memorial Award $10,000 for writing that merits recognition for the quality of its prose style. JUDITH THURMAN Michael Braude Award $5,000 for achievement in light verse. R. S. GWYNN Morton Dawen Zabel Award $5,000 to a progressive, original, and experimental writer. LEONARD BARKIN American Academy of Arts and Letters The Academy was founded in 1898 to "foster, assist, and sustain an interest in literature, music, and the fine arts." Each year, the Academy honors over 50 artists, architects, writers, and composers (who are not members) with cash awards. The amounts of these prizes range from $2,500 to $75,000. Other activities of the Academy are exhibitions of art, architecture, and manuscripts; publications on the Academy's history and events; and readings and performances of new musicals. The American Academy of Arts and Letters is located in two landmark buildings, designed by McKim, Mead &White and by Cass Gilbert, on Audubon Terrace at 155th Street and Broadway. Biographies of 2004 Award Winners in Literature Nicholson Baker (Katherine Anne Porter Award) was born in 1957 and attended the Eastman School of Music and Haverford College. He has published six novels, The Mezzanine, 1988; Room Temperature, 1990, Vox, 1992; The Fermata, 1994; The Everlasting Story of Nory, 1998, and A Box of Matches, 2003; and three works of nonfiction, U and I, 1991; The Size of Thoughts, 1996; and Double Fold, 2001. His work has appeared in The New Yorker, the London Review of Books, Best American Stories, The Atlantic, Harper's, and the New York Review of Books. Mr. Baker founded the American Newspaper Repository in 1999. Leonard Barkan (Morton Dawen Zabel Award) was born in New York City in 1944. He was educated at Swarthmore, Harvard, and Yale University. He is the Arthur W. Marks Professor of Comparative Literature and the director of the Society of Fellows at Princeton University where he has taught since 2001. His four books of non-fiction are: Nature's Work of Art: The Human Body as Image of the World, 1975; The Gods Made Flesh: Metamorphosis and the Pursuit of Paganism, 1986; Transuming Passion: Ganymede and the Erotics of Humanism, 1991; and Unearthing the Past: Archaeology and Aesthetics in the Making of Renaissance Culture, 1999. He has edited numerous books on Renaissance Drama, and his reviews have appeared in Modern Philology, and Shakespeare Quarterly. Mr. Barkan has won many awards including a PEN Architectural Digest Prize for Literary Writing in the Visual Arts. He is a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Henri Cole (Academy Award) was born in Fukuoka, Japan, in 1956. He grew up in Virginia and was educated at the College of William and Mary, University of Wisconsin, and Columbia University. Mr. Cole's poetry has been published in five collections: Middle Earth, 2003; The Visible Man, 1998; The Look of Things, 1995; The Zoo Wheel of Knowledge, 1989; and The Marble Queen, 1986. He has received the Kingly Tufts Poetry Award; Rome Prize in Literature from the American Academy of Arts and Letters; and fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Ingram Merrill Foundation. Anthony Doerr (Rome Fellowship) was educated at Bowdoin College and Bowling Green State University. He is the author of The Shell Collector: Stories (2002) and the forthcoming novel About Grace. He has received two O'Henry Awards for his short stories, a fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts and a 2003 Young Lions award from the New York Public Library for The Shell Collector. Mr. Doerr has taught at Boise State University, Bowling Green State University, and the University of Wisconsin. He is currently a Hodder Fellow at Princeton University Nell Freudenberger (Sue Kaufman Prize for First Fiction) was born in New York City in 1975. She attended Harvard University and New York University. Lucky Girls, a collection of short stories published in 2003, received the Pen/Faulkner Malamud Prize for Short Fiction. Her story The Tutor was selected for O'Henry Prize Stories and Best American Short Stories, both published in 2004. Other works of her fiction have appeared in The Paris Review, Granta, and The New Yorker. R.S. Gwynn (Michael Braude Award for Light Verse) was born in Eden, North Carolina, in 1948. He attended Davidson College and the University of Arkansas. He has taught at Southwest Texas State University, and since 1976, at Lamar University in Beaumont, Texas. He is the author of the poetry collections Bearing and Distance, 1977; The Drive-In, 1986; The Area Code of God, 1994; and No Word of Farewell: Poems 1970-2000, 2001. His satirical poem, The Narcissiad, was published in 1981. Gwynn has also edited anthologies of literature and criticism, including four for the Penguin Academics Pocket Anthology series. Marilyn Hacker (Academy Award) was born in Bronx, New York, in 1942. She is a professor of English at The City College of New York, and a professor of French at City University of New York, Graduate Center. She has published more than twelve books of poetry including Presentation Piece, 1974; Separations, 1976; Taking Notice, 1980; Assumptions, 1985; Love, Death, and the Changing of the Seasons, 1986; Going Back to the River, 1990; Winter Numbers: Poems, 1994; Squares and Courtyards, 2000; and First Cities: Collected Early Poems, 2003. Hacker's translations include the work of V?nus Khoury-Ghata, and Claire Malroux. Her poems, essays, and translations of other poets have been published in Poetry Daily Anthology, The Norton Anthology of Contemporary Poetry, Encyclopedia of American Literature, Poetry London, Clarion, Commonweal, The Paris Review, Ploughshares, and The New Yorker. Hacker's many awards include two National Book Critics' Circle Award nominations, an NEA grant, an Ingram-Merrill grant, and a Guggenheim fellowship. Samuel Hynes (Academy Award) was born in 1924 in Chicago, Illinois. He graduated from the University of Minnesota and received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Columbia University. He is Woodrow Wilson Professor of Literature Emeritus at Princeton University where he has taught since 1976. His works of literary criticism include The Edwardian Turn of Mind, 1962; Edwardian Occasions, 1972; The Auden Generation, 1976; and A War Imagined: The First World War and English Culture, 1990. His other books are Flights of Passage: Reflections of a World War II Aviator, 1988; The Soldier's Tale, 1997; and The Growing Seasons: An American Boyhood Before the War, 2003. Mr. Hynes is a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature. Arnost Lustig (Academy Award) was born in Prague, Czechoslovakia, in 1926. He immigrated to the United States in 1970. A survivor of three concentration camps, the Holocaust is the central theme of his fiction. He is the author of 18 books, among them A Prayer for Katerina Horovitzova, 1964; The Unloved: From the Diary of Perla S., 1979; Darkness Cast No Shadow, 1977; Street of Lost Brothers, 1990; Colette, 1992; Beautiful Green Eyes, 1995; Children of the Holocaust, 1995; and Lea from Leuvoorslen, 2000. Mr. Lustig divides his time writing and teaching between the United States and the Czech Republic. Joe Ashby Porter (Academy Award) was born in Madisonville, Kentucky, in 1942. He attended Harvard University, Oxford, and the University of California at Berkeley. He has taught at Duke University since 1980. Mr. Porter is the author of three short story collections: The Kentucky Stories, 1983; Lithuania, 1990; and Touch Wood, 2002; two novels: Eelgrass, 1977; and Resident Aliens, 2000; and two works of nonfiction on William Shakespeare. Among his honors are Pushcart Prizes, NEA/PEN Syndicated Fiction awards, and fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts. Robin Robertson (E.M. Forster Award) was born in 1955, in Scone, Scotland. His collection of poetry, A Painted Field (1997), won the UK's Forward Prize for best first book and the Scottish First Book of the Year award. His second collection, Slow Air, appeared in 2002. Since 1978 Robin Robertson has worked in publishing at Penguin Books, Secker &Warburg, and most recently Jonathan Cape, where he is deputy publishing director and poetry editor. Louis D. Rubin, Jr. (Academy Award) was born in Charleston, South Carolina, in 1923, and received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins University. He is Distinguished Professor of English Emeritus at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He is the founder and former director of Algonquin Books. He is the author of more than fifty books, including, The History of Southern Literature, 1985; The Edge of the Swamp: A Study in the Literature and Society of the Old South, 1989; The Mockingbird in the Gum Tree: A Literary Gallimaufry, 1991; The Golden Weather: a novel, 1995; An Honorable Estate: My Time in the Working Press, 200l; and My Father's People: A Family of Southern Jews, 2002. Rubin's essays and reviews have appeared in Virginia Quarterly Review, New York Times Book Review, Southern Review, and Washington Post Book World. Judith Thurman (Harold D. Vursell Memorial Award) was born in 1946 in New York City and attended Brandeis University. She is a contributing writer at Architectural Digest and has been on staff at The New Yorker since 1987. She has written four books of nonfiction: I Became Alone, 1973; The Magic Lantern: How Movies Got to Move, 1979; Isak Dinesen: The Life of a Storyteller, 1982 (for which she received a National Book award); and Secrets of the Flesh: A Life of Colette, 1999. Olympia Vernon (Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Award) was born in Bogalusa, Louisiana, in 1973. She was educated at Southeastern Louisiana University and received her M.F.A. from Louisiana Sate University. She has written two novels, Eden, 2003 and Logic, 2004. Vernon's honors include a Pulitzer Prize nomination for Eden. Paula Vogel (Academy Award) was born in 1951 in Washington, D.C. She graduated from Catholic University of America. She is the Adele Kellenberg Seaver Professor of Creative Writing at Brown University where she directs the M.F.A. playwriting program. Her plays include Desdemona, 1979; And Baby Makes Seven, 1981; The Oldest Profession, 1982; The Baltimore Waltz, 1992; Hot 'n' Throbbing, 1994; Mineola Twins, 1996; and The Long Christmas Ride Home, 2003. Her play How I Learned To Drive won an Obie, New York Drama Critics award, Outer Critics Circle award, and the 1998 Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Vogel's honors include a Guggenheim fellowship, an NEA fellowship, and the Pew Charitable Trust Senior award. Her work was selected for the 2004-2005 season of the Signature Theater in New York. Rosanna Warren (Academy Award) attended Yale and Johns Hopkins Universities. She began teaching at Boston University in 1982, and is currently the Emma MacLachlan Metcalf Professor of the Humanities and Professor of English and Foreign Modern Languages. Ms. Warren is the author of four collections of poetry: Snow Day, 1981; Each Leaf Shines Separate, 1984; Stained Glass, 1993; Departure, 2003; one novel: The Joey Story, 1963; and a verse translation of the Euripides' play Suppliant Women. Among her awards are an Ingram Merrill Grant for Poetry, Guggenheim fellowship, Lamont Poetry prize (Academy of American Poets), Lisa Wallace Readers' Digest award, and the Witter Bynner Poetry prize from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. Lisa Williams (Rome Fellowship) was born in 1966, in Nashville, Tennessee. She attended Belmont University in Nashville and received her M.A. from the University of Cincinnati, and her M.F.A in creative writing/poetry from the University of Virginia. She is Assistant Professor of English at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky. Her book of poetry, The Hammered Dulcimer was published in 1998. Her poems have been published in Southeast Review, Raritan, The New Republic, and Virginia Quarterly Review. Williams has won an Academy of American Poets prize (University of Virginia), and a May Swenson Poetry award. Greg Williamson (Academy Award) was born in 1964, in Columbus, Ohio. He attended Vanderbilt University, University of Wisconsin, and Johns Hopkins, where he has taught since 1989. His first collection of poetry, The Silent Partner, won the 1995 Nicholas Roerich Poetry Prize. In 1998, Mr. Williamson received the Whiting Writers' award, and the Elizabeth Matchett Stover Memorial award for the best poem of the year in Southwest Review. His second book, Errors in the Script, was published in 2001. Doug Wright (Benjamin H. Danks Award) was educated at Yale University and received his M.F.A. from New York University. He has taught playwriting at N.Y.U. and Princeton University. His plays include The Stonewater Rapture, 1984; Interrogating the Nude, 1989; Quills, 1995; Watbanaland, 1995; I Am My Own Wife, 2003, and a musical, Buzzsaw Berkely, 1989, with music and lyrics by Michael John LaChiusa. Quills received the 1995 Kesselring prize for Best New American Play from the National Arts Club and a 1995 Obie award for Outstanding Achievement in Playwriting. Wright has received the William L. Bradely fellowship at Yale University, the Charles MacAthur fellowship at the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center, an HBO fellowship in playwriting, and the Alfred Hodder fellowship at Princeton University. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 06:40:50 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 06:40:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright: 2004 Pulitzer Prize Winner References: <15d.31f5f344.2da4caab@cs.com> Message-ID: <006701c41c8c$cd352d70$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> >>Walden >> >> >>Sunlight and silence stood at a bend in the path suddenly; >>wind moved, once, over the dark water >>and I was back. >>Far from the world of appearances, >>the world of "gain and mirth." >>So soon >>there will be nobody >> >>here going on >>about death >>and pain and change. No one here! >>Spoking hallways of pines where the owl, eyes wide open, dreams-- >>there is a power that wants me to live, I don't know why. >>Then I saw again >>the turtle >> >>like a massive haunted head >>lumbering after the egg laying toward >>the water and vanishing >>into the water, slowly >>soaring >>in that element half underworld, half sky. >>There is a power that wants me to love. > Bleh! That last line. Which the poem inexorably leads straight to. Or "I have wasted my life." Would have been better as "I have waisted my life." I would have liked it better, I guess. The poet there is expressing self-knowledge, however dopey, rather than emitting some kind of (dopier) religious sentiment. But to each his own. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Wed Apr 7 07:06:28 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 07:06:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards In-Reply-To: <142.263b8b30.2da4cc09@cs.com> Message-ID: <9E551818-8883-11D8-8B73-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Well done, Sam! Congratulations. Wendy On Tuesday, April 6, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Michael Braude Award > $5,000 for achievement in light verse. > R. S. GWYNN > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. --Rumi From Djoysgrape Wed Apr 7 07:19:33 2004 From: Djoysgrape (Djoysgrape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:19:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards Message-ID: <45A92DDE.5223D8A7.0B0A44C0@aol.com> Wendy: love the Rumi quote. D From marcus Wed Apr 7 07:59:10 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:59:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Thinking Problem In-Reply-To: <01de01c41c2d$5ac6f1b0$3eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4073B4CE.2469.27F818@localhost> Found Poem: My Thinking Problem It started out innocently enough. I began to think at parties now and then "to loosen up." Inevitably though, one thought led to another, and soon I was more than just a social thinker. I began to think alone "to relax," I told myself though I knew it wasn't true. Thinking became more and more important to me and finally I was thinking all the time. I even began to think on the job. I knew thinking and employment don't mix but I couldn't stop myself. I began to avoid friends at lunchtime so I could read. I often returned to the office dizzied and confused,and asked "What is it exactly we are doing here?" I soon had a reputation as a heavy thinker. One day the boss called me in. He said, "I like you -- and it hurts me to say this -- but your thinking has become a real problem. If you don't stop thinking on the job you'll have to find other work." This gave me a lot to think about. I went home early after that. "Sweetheart," I confessed, "I've been thinking..." "I know you've been thinking and if you don't stop, I want a divorce!" "But darling, it can't be that serious." "It is that serious! You think as much as, as college professors, and college professors don't make any money, so if you keep on thinking we won't have any money!" "That's a faulty syllogism," I said impatiently, and it went downhill from there. Soon I'd had enough. "I'm going to the library," I snarled as I stomped out the door. I was in the mood for some Nietzsche. With NPR on the radio, I roared into the parking lot and ran up to the big glass doors. They didn't open. The library was closed. To this day, I believe that a Higher Power was looking out for me that night. As I sank to the ground clawing at the unfeeling glass, whimpering for Zarathustra, I saw a poster -- you know the one: "Friend, is heavy thinking ruining your life?" A Thinker's Anonymous poster. That's why I am what I am today: a recovering thinker. I never miss a TA meeting. We watch noneducational videos -- last week it was "Porky's." Then we share our experiences about how we've avoided thinking since the last meeting. I still have my job, and things are a lot better at home, too. Life just seemed ... easier, somehow, as soon as I stopped thinking. Soon, I'll be able to vote Republican. From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 09:02:11 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 09:02:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards References: <9E551818-8883-11D8-8B73-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <00d501c41ca0$8c3d7700$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Well done, Sam! Congratulations. > > Wendy Ditto. Now if there will only be one for lighght verse--or, better, for criticism of lighght verse. Seriously, there should not only be more awards for more poets and more kinds of poetry (and I am very glad that a looked-down-upon form like light verse can win someone an award), but more awards for criticism. I think a main reason for poetry's not being more widely read is lack of widely circulated, effective criticism of poetry. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 09:09:42 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 09:09:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Thinking Problem References: <4073B4CE.2469.27F818@localhost> Message-ID: <00ee01c41ca1$99e79560$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I liked this poem till the last line, which was way too facile, and absurd considering the level of thinking going in the other party (e.g., Kerry's thoughts on the Iraq situation). A better last line would be about how the protagonist now is considering a career in politics. > Found Poem: My Thinking Problem > > It started out innocently > enough. I began to think > at parties now and then > "to loosen up." > Inevitably though, > one thought led to another, and soon > I was more than just a social thinker. > I began to think alone > "to relax," > I told myself > though I knew it wasn't true. > > Thinking became more > and more important to me > and finally I was thinking > all the time. > I even began to think > on the job. I knew > thinking and employment don't mix > but I couldn't stop myself. > > I began to avoid > friends at lunchtime > so I could read. > I often returned to the office > dizzied and confused,and asked > "What is it exactly we are doing here?" > I soon had a reputation as a heavy thinker. > One day the boss called me in. > He said, "I like you -- > and it hurts me to say this -- > but your thinking has become a real problem. > If you don't stop thinking on the job > you'll have to find other work." > > This gave me a lot to think about. > I went home early after that. > "Sweetheart," I confessed, > "I've been thinking..." > > "I know you've been thinking > and if you don't stop, > I want a divorce!" > > "But darling, it can't be that serious." > > "It is that serious! > You think as much as, as > college professors, > and college professors don't make any money, > so if you keep on thinking we won't have any money!" > > "That's a faulty syllogism," I said impatiently, > and it went downhill from there. > > Soon I'd had enough. > "I'm going to the library," I snarled > as I stomped out the door. > I was in the mood for some Nietzsche. > With NPR on the radio, > I roared into the parking lot and > ran up to the big glass doors. > They didn't open. > The library was closed. > To this day, I believe > that a Higher Power > was looking out for me that night. > > As I sank to the ground clawing at > the unfeeling glass, > whimpering for Zarathustra, > I saw a poster -- > you know the one: > > "Friend, is heavy thinking ruining your life?" > > A Thinker's Anonymous poster. > > That's why I am what I am today: > a recovering thinker. > I never miss a TA meeting. > We watch noneducational videos -- > last week it was "Porky's." > Then we share our experiences > about how we've avoided thinking since > the last meeting. > I still have my job, > and things are a lot better > at home, too. > > Life just seemed ... easier, > somehow, > as soon as I stopped thinking. > > Soon, I'll be able to > vote Republican. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin Wed Apr 7 09:28:24 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:28:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards Message-ID: <679838.1081344504416.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, April 06, 2004, at 11:14PM, wrote: >OK, I'm being shameless, but I'm very happy about this news! Congratulations, Sam--wonderful news! I'm not familiar with all the poets in the list, but with some trepidation--I'm really not interested in starting a "who owns form" fight--I'll add I'm happy to notice at least a few other folks friendly to trad forms--Rosanna Warren, Marilyn Hacker, Greg Willamson. Williamson's "double exposures" are dazzling. Alan Sullivan wrote piece at Seablogger (http://www.seablogger.com/library/jade/essays/06.htm)which ends with an explanation and exploration of them--Bob Grumman, you might find them something new. ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From mandolin Wed Apr 7 09:29:29 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:29:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards Message-ID: <15535931.1081344569021.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, April 07, 2004, at 09:02AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> Well done, Sam! Congratulations. >> >> Wendy > >Ditto. Now if there will only be one for lighght verse--or, better, for >criticism of lighght verse. > >Seriously, there should not only be more awards for more poets and more >kinds of poetry (and I am very glad that a looked-down-upon form like light >verse can win someone an award), but more awards for criticism. I think a >main reason for poetry's not being more widely read is lack of widely >circulated, effective criticism of poetry. > >--Bob G. > Bob, have you been reading Gioia? ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From paul.lake Wed Apr 7 09:36:10 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 08:36:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards In-Reply-To: <142.263b8b30.2da4cc09@cs.com> Message-ID: Bravo! Way to go, Sam. on 4/6/04 10:14 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > OK, I'm being shameless, but I'm very happy about this news! > > AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ARTS AND LETTERS > HONORS 19 WRITERS WITH AWARDS > > New York, April 6, 2004 - The American Academy of Arts and Letters announced > today the names of 19 writers who will receive its 2004 awards in literature. > The awards will be presented in New York on May 19th at the Academy's annual > Ceremonial. The literature prizes, totaling nearly $180,000 this year, honor > both established and emerging writers of fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. The > Academy's 250 members nominate candidates, and a rotating committee of writers > selects winners. The members of the 2004 committee were Anthony Hecht, John > Hollander, Romulus Linney, Reynolds Price, Jane Smiley, and Edmund White. > Academy Awards in Literature > Eight awards of $7,500 each honor writers of exceptional accomplishment in any > genre. > HENRI COLE > MARILYN HACKER > SAMUEL HYNES > ARNOST LUSTIG > JOE ASHBY PORTER > LOUIS D. RUBIN > PAULA VOGEL > GREG WILLIAMSON > > Benjamin H. Danks Award > $20,000 given to encourage a young writer of fiction, non-fiction, or poetry. > DOUG WRIGHT > > E.M. Forster Award > $15,000 to a young writer from England, Ireland, Scotland, or Wales for a stay > in the United States. Award jury: Robert Creeley, Donald Hall, Alison Lurie. > ROBIN ROBERTSON > > Sue Kaufman Prize for First Fiction > $2,500 for the best work of first fiction (novel or short stories) published > in 2003. > NELL FREUDENBERGER, Lucky Girls > > > Award of Merit for Poetry > A medal and $10,000 given once every six years, to an outstanding poet. > ROSANNA WARREN > > Katherine Anne Porter Award > A biennial award of $20,000, given to a writer of prose. > NICHOLSON BAKER > > Rome Fellowships in Literature > One-year residency (2004-2005) at the American Academy in Rome. > ANTHONY DOERR, writer > LISA WILLIAMS, poet > > Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Foundation Award > $5,000 for fiction of considerable literary accomplishment published in the > preceding year. > OLYMPIA VERNON, Eden > > Harold D. Vursell Memorial Award > $10,000 for writing that merits recognition for the quality of its prose > style. > JUDITH THURMAN > > Michael Braude Award > $5,000 for achievement in light verse. > R. S. GWYNN > > Morton Dawen Zabel Award > $5,000 to a progressive, original, and experimental writer. > LEONARD BARKIN > > > > American Academy of Arts and Letters > > The Academy was founded in 1898 to "foster, assist, and sustain an interest in > literature, music, and the fine arts." Each year, the Academy honors over 50 > artists, architects, writers, and composers (who are not members) with cash > awards. The amounts of these prizes range from $2,500 to $75,000. Other > activities of the Academy are exhibitions of art, architecture, and > manuscripts; publications on the Academy's history and events; and readings > and performances of new musicals. The American Academy of Arts and Letters is > located in two landmark buildings, designed by McKim, Mead &White and by Cass > Gilbert, on Audubon Terrace at 155th Street and Broadway. > > > Biographies of 2004 Award Winners in Literature > > Nicholson Baker (Katherine Anne Porter Award) was born in 1957 and attended > the Eastman School of Music and Haverford College. He has published six > novels, The Mezzanine, 1988; Room Temperature, 1990, Vox, 1992; The Fermata, > 1994; The Everlasting Story of Nory, 1998, and A Box of Matches, 2003; and > three works of nonfiction, U and I, 1991; The Size of Thoughts, 1996; and > Double Fold, 2001. His work has appeared in The New Yorker, the London Review > of Books, Best American Stories, The Atlantic, Harper's, and the New York > Review of Books. Mr. Baker founded the American Newspaper Repository in 1999. > > Leonard Barkan (Morton Dawen Zabel Award) was born in New York City in 1944. > He was educated at Swarthmore, Harvard, and Yale University. He is the Arthur > W. Marks Professor of Comparative Literature and the director of the Society > of Fellows at Princeton University where he has taught since 2001. His four > books of non-fiction are: Nature's Work of Art: The Human Body as Image of the > World, 1975; The Gods Made Flesh: Metamorphosis and the Pursuit of Paganism, > 1986; Transuming Passion: Ganymede and the Erotics of Humanism, 1991; and > Unearthing the Past: Archaeology and Aesthetics in the Making of Renaissance > Culture, 1999. He has edited numerous books on Renaissance Drama, and his > reviews have appeared in Modern Philology, and Shakespeare Quarterly. Mr. > Barkan has won many awards including a PEN Architectural Digest Prize for > Literary Writing in the Visual Arts. He is a fellow of the American Academy of > Arts and Sciences. > > Henri Cole (Academy Award) was born in Fukuoka, Japan, in 1956. He grew up in > Virginia and was educated at the College of William and Mary, University of > Wisconsin, and Columbia University. Mr. Cole's poetry has been published in > five collections: Middle Earth, 2003; The Visible Man, 1998; The Look of > Things, 1995; The Zoo Wheel of Knowledge, 1989; and The Marble Queen, 1986. He > has received the Kingly Tufts Poetry Award; Rome Prize in Literature from the > American Academy of Arts and Letters; and fellowships from the National > Endowment for the Arts and the Ingram Merrill Foundation. > > Anthony Doerr (Rome Fellowship) was educated at Bowdoin College and Bowling > Green State University. He is the author of The Shell Collector: Stories > (2002) and the forthcoming novel About Grace. He has received two O'Henry > Awards for his short stories, a fellowship from the National Endowment for the > Arts and a 2003 Young Lions award from the New York Public Library for The > Shell Collector. Mr. Doerr has taught at Boise State University, Bowling Green > State University, and the University of Wisconsin. He is currently a Hodder > Fellow at Princeton University > > Nell Freudenberger (Sue Kaufman Prize for First Fiction) was born in New York > City in 1975. > She attended Harvard University and New York University. Lucky Girls, a > collection of short stories published in 2003, received the Pen/Faulkner > Malamud Prize for Short Fiction. Her story The Tutor was selected for O'Henry > Prize Stories and Best American Short Stories, both published in 2004. Other > works of her fiction have appeared in The Paris Review, Granta, and The New > Yorker. > > R.S. Gwynn (Michael Braude Award for Light Verse) was born in Eden, North > Carolina, in 1948. > He attended Davidson College and the University of Arkansas. He has taught at > Southwest Texas State University, and since 1976, at Lamar University in > Beaumont, Texas. He is the author of the poetry collections Bearing and > Distance, 1977; The Drive-In, 1986; The Area Code of God, 1994; and No Word of > Farewell: Poems 1970-2000, 2001. His satirical poem, The Narcissiad, was > published in 1981. Gwynn has also edited anthologies of literature and > criticism, including four for the Penguin Academics Pocket Anthology series. > > Marilyn Hacker (Academy Award) was born in Bronx, New York, in 1942. She is a > professor of English at The City College of New York, and a professor of > French at City University of New York, Graduate Center. She has published more > than twelve books of poetry including Presentation Piece, 1974; Separations, > 1976; Taking Notice, 1980; Assumptions, 1985; Love, Death, and the Changing of > the Seasons, 1986; Going Back to the River, 1990; Winter Numbers: Poems, 1994; > Squares and Courtyards, 2000; and First Cities: Collected Early Poems, 2003. > Hacker's translations include the work of V?nus Khoury-Ghata, and Claire > Malroux. Her poems, essays, and translations of other poets have been > published in Poetry Daily Anthology, The Norton Anthology of Contemporary > Poetry, Encyclopedia of American Literature, Poetry London, Clarion, > Commonweal, The Paris Review, Ploughshares, and The New Yorker. Hacker's many > awards include two National Book Critics' Circle Award nominations, an NEA > grant, an Ingram-Merrill grant, and a Guggenheim fellowship. > > Samuel Hynes (Academy Award) was born in 1924 in Chicago, Illinois. He > graduated from the University of Minnesota and received his M.A. and Ph.D. > from Columbia University. He is Woodrow Wilson Professor of Literature > Emeritus at Princeton University where he has taught since 1976. His works of > literary criticism include The Edwardian Turn of Mind, 1962; Edwardian > Occasions, 1972; The Auden Generation, 1976; and A War Imagined: The First > World War and English Culture, 1990. His other books are Flights of Passage: > Reflections of a World War II Aviator, 1988; The Soldier's Tale, 1997; and The > Growing Seasons: An American Boyhood Before the War, 2003. Mr. Hynes is a > fellow of the Royal Society of Literature. > > Arnost Lustig (Academy Award) was born in Prague, Czechoslovakia, in 1926. He > immigrated to the United States in 1970. A survivor of three concentration > camps, the Holocaust is the central theme of his fiction. He is the author of > 18 books, among them A Prayer for Katerina Horovitzova, 1964; The Unloved: > From the Diary of Perla S., 1979; Darkness Cast No Shadow, 1977; Street of > Lost Brothers, 1990; Colette, 1992; Beautiful Green Eyes, 1995; Children of > the Holocaust, 1995; and Lea from Leuvoorslen, 2000. Mr. Lustig divides his > time writing and teaching between the United States and the Czech Republic. > > Joe Ashby Porter (Academy Award) was born in Madisonville, Kentucky, in 1942. > He attended Harvard University, Oxford, and the University of California at > Berkeley. He has taught at Duke University since 1980. Mr. Porter is the > author of three short story collections: The Kentucky Stories, 1983; > Lithuania, 1990; and Touch Wood, 2002; two novels: Eelgrass, 1977; and > Resident Aliens, 2000; and two works of nonfiction on William Shakespeare. > Among his honors are Pushcart Prizes, NEA/PEN Syndicated Fiction awards, and > fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts. > > Robin Robertson (E.M. Forster Award) was born in 1955, in Scone, Scotland. His > collection of poetry, A Painted Field (1997), won the UK's Forward Prize for > best first book and the Scottish First Book of the Year award. His second > collection, Slow Air, appeared in 2002. Since 1978 Robin Robertson has worked > in publishing at Penguin Books, Secker &Warburg, and most recently Jonathan > Cape, where he is deputy publishing director and poetry editor. > > Louis D. Rubin, Jr. (Academy Award) was born in Charleston, South Carolina, in > 1923, and received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins University. He is > Distinguished Professor of English Emeritus at University of North Carolina, > Chapel Hill. He is the founder and former director of Algonquin Books. He is > the author of more than fifty books, including, The History of Southern > Literature, 1985; The Edge of the Swamp: A Study in the Literature and Society > of the Old South, 1989; The Mockingbird in the Gum Tree: A Literary > Gallimaufry, 1991; The Golden Weather: a novel, 1995; An Honorable Estate: My > Time in the Working Press, 200l; and My Father's People: A Family of Southern > Jews, 2002. Rubin's essays and reviews have appeared in Virginia Quarterly > Review, New York Times Book Review, Southern Review, and Washington Post Book > World. > > Judith Thurman (Harold D. Vursell Memorial Award) was born in 1946 in New York > City and attended Brandeis University. She is a contributing writer at > Architectural Digest and has been on staff at The New Yorker since 1987. She > has written four books of nonfiction: I Became Alone, 1973; The Magic Lantern: > How Movies Got to Move, 1979; Isak Dinesen: The Life of a Storyteller, 1982 > (for which she received a National Book award); and Secrets of the Flesh: A > Life of Colette, 1999. > > Olympia Vernon (Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Award) was born in Bogalusa, > Louisiana, in 1973. She was educated at Southeastern Louisiana University and > received her M.F.A. from Louisiana Sate University. She has written two > novels, Eden, 2003 and Logic, 2004. Vernon's honors include a Pulitzer Prize > nomination for Eden. > > Paula Vogel (Academy Award) was born in 1951 in Washington, D.C. She graduated > from Catholic University of America. She is the Adele Kellenberg Seaver > Professor of Creative Writing at Brown University where she directs the M.F.A. > playwriting program. Her plays include Desdemona, 1979; And Baby Makes Seven, > 1981; The Oldest Profession, 1982; The Baltimore Waltz, 1992; Hot 'n' > Throbbing, 1994; Mineola Twins, 1996; and The Long Christmas Ride Home, 2003. > Her play How I Learned To Drive won an Obie, New York Drama Critics award, > Outer Critics Circle award, and the 1998 Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Vogel's > honors include a Guggenheim fellowship, an NEA fellowship, and the Pew > Charitable Trust Senior award. Her work was selected for the 2004-2005 season > of the Signature Theater in New York. > > Rosanna Warren (Academy Award) attended Yale and Johns Hopkins Universities. > She began teaching at Boston University in 1982, and is currently the Emma > MacLachlan Metcalf Professor of the Humanities and Professor of English and > Foreign Modern Languages. Ms. Warren is the author of four collections of > poetry: Snow Day, 1981; Each Leaf Shines Separate, 1984; Stained Glass, 1993; > Departure, 2003; one novel: The Joey Story, 1963; and a verse translation of > the Euripides' play Suppliant Women. Among her awards are an Ingram Merrill > Grant for Poetry, Guggenheim fellowship, Lamont Poetry prize (Academy of > American Poets), Lisa Wallace Readers' Digest award, and the Witter Bynner > Poetry prize from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. > > Lisa Williams (Rome Fellowship) was born in 1966, in Nashville, Tennessee. She > attended Belmont University in Nashville and received her M.A. from the > University of Cincinnati, and her M.F.A in creative writing/poetry from the > University of Virginia. She is Assistant Professor of English at Centre > College in Danville, Kentucky. Her book of poetry, The Hammered Dulcimer was > published in 1998. Her poems have been published in Southeast Review, Raritan, > The New Republic, and Virginia Quarterly Review. Williams has won an Academy > of American Poets prize (University of Virginia), and a May Swenson Poetry > award. > > Greg Williamson (Academy Award) was born in 1964, in Columbus, Ohio. He > attended Vanderbilt University, University of Wisconsin, and Johns Hopkins, > where he has taught since 1989. His first collection of poetry, The Silent > Partner, won the 1995 Nicholas Roerich Poetry Prize. In 1998, Mr. Williamson > received the Whiting Writers' award, and the Elizabeth Matchett Stover > Memorial award for the best poem of the year in Southwest Review. His second > book, Errors in the Script, was published in 2001. > > Doug Wright (Benjamin H. Danks Award) was educated at Yale University and > received his M.F.A. from New York University. He has taught playwriting at > N.Y.U. and Princeton University. His plays include The Stonewater Rapture, > 1984; Interrogating the Nude, 1989; Quills, 1995; Watbanaland, 1995; I Am My > Own Wife, 2003, and a musical, Buzzsaw Berkely, 1989, with music and lyrics by > Michael John LaChiusa. Quills received the 1995 Kesselring prize for Best New > American Play from the National Arts Club and a 1995 Obie award for > Outstanding Achievement in Playwriting. Wright has received the William L. > Bradely fellowship at Yale University, the Charles MacAthur fellowship at the > Eugene O'Neill Theater Center, an HBO fellowship in playwriting, and the > Alfred Hodder fellowship at Princeton University. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts Wed Apr 7 10:16:14 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 07:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: e: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts Message-ID: <20040407141614.2B3133A5C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From gmguddi Wed Apr 7 10:24:37 2004 From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:24:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Also Upon Conchology Blog Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040407092427.01e02f80@mail.ilstu.edu> A Report on Recent Blog Soap Operatics (including a response by arch-conservative Daniel Hoffman) Transcribed Conversation about the Art of Brian Collier Some Bad Collaborative Poetry Frank Zappa on Farting Passages of Comfort from Epictetus Passages of Comfort from Stoicism's Heir: 12 Step Programs A Report on a Reading by Peter Ramos and Roberto Tejada at Illinois State University What's Next in _Mandorla_ And: PHOTOS OF HOOLIGANS AND LEFTISTS http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ __________________ Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 11:09:33 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:09:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards References: <679838.1081344504416.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <012101c41cb2$5700e790$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > On Tuesday, April 06, 2004, at 11:14PM, wrote: > > >OK, I'm being shameless, but I'm very happy about this news! > > > Congratulations, Sam--wonderful news! > > I'm not familiar with all the poets in the list, but with some trepidation--I'm really not interested in starting a "who owns form" fight--I'll add I'm happy to notice at least a few other folks friendly to trad forms--Rosanna Warren, Marilyn Hacker, Greg Willamson. Williamson's "double exposures" are dazzling. Alan Sullivan wrote piece at Seablogger (http://www.seablogger.com/library/jade/essays/06.htm)which ends with an explanation and exploration of them--Bob Grumman, you might find them something new. I will definitely read this. I find it very hard to believe that anyone I consider not friendly to traditional forms won any of these awards. But I consider Iowa Workshop freeverese a traditional form since it is at least fifty years old, and free verse itself over a hundred years old. Note: I'm not condemning traditional form. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 11:12:25 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:12:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards References: <15535931.1081344569021.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <012701c41cb2$bdd006e0$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > >Seriously, there should not only be more awards for more poets and more > >kinds of poetry (and I am very glad that a looked-down-upon form like light > >verse can win someone an award), but more awards for criticism. I think a > >main reason for poetry's not being more widely read is lack of widely > >circulated, effective criticism of poetry. > > > >--Bob G. > > > Bob, have you been reading Gioia? Haw. I never said he doesn't say anything I agree with. He's said a few good things, in my view. More things I don't agree with. But my main problem with him is that he fails to say a lot that I would want him to. I would add that his idea of effective criticism is not the same as mine. For one thing, he doesn't seem to believe a critic should try to give people some intelligent idea of all the kinds of poetry that are out there. --Bob G. > ----- > Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. > http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From GrahamD Wed Apr 7 11:42:46 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 10:42:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Turcotte Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A28A@ariel.ripon.edu> Battlefield for Jackie Back when I used to be Indian I am standing outside the pool hall with my sister. She, strawberry blonde. Stale sweat and beer through the open door. A warrior leans on his stick, fingers blue with chalk. Another bends to shoot. His braids brush the green felt, swinging to the beat of the jukebox. We move away. Hank Williams falls again in the backseat of a Cadillac. I look back. A wind off the distant hills lifts my shirt, brings the scent of wounded horses. -- Mark Turcotte. *Exploding Chippewas*. Northwestern UP, 2001. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 11:44:14 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:44:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards References: <679838.1081344504416.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <014301c41cb7$2fb63640$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I'm not familiar with all the poets in the list, but with some trepidation--I'm really not interested in starting a "who owns form" fight This and posts about the NEA, etc., made me think about one way I have of classifying poetry (and other arts)--that is, into "otherstream" and "knownstream." "Mainstream" is not the opposite, for me, of "otherstream." Anyway, the fact that light verse got an award reminded me that it, haiku and what I call "contragenteel" poetry (Bukowski-influenced very coarse poetry, to roughly describe it) are three kinds of knownstream poetry that I would not consider mainstream. Maybe "slam" poetry is another, if it is really different from both contragenteel and Iowa workshop poetry. Or from "sound" poetry or "performance" poetry, which I consider otherstream. (Length of time a kind of poetry has been composed is irrelevant for classification here; what counts is whether any mainstream anthology includes specimens of it, or would even consider including specifimens of it--or, really, more than one or two specimens by poets in for other reasons than their otherstream poems.) The reason I'm talking about this is to ask if anyone knows of any other kind of knownstream poetry that is not mainstream. I went to the Seablogger site, but the one Michael directed to me was unreachable. So I went to the table of contents, and what I saw there reminded me that there are very probably people working in very traditional knowstream forms of poetry that surely are not mainstream--alliterative verse being one. I'm trawling for ideas and comments, not arguing. If tomorrow, soemone took over the poetry establishment and 98% of all mainstream anthologies suddenly became devoted to visual and infra-verbal poetry, my two favorites, and universities taught them to the near-exclusion of all other forms, and it was rare any poet not composing one or the other got any major award, I'd be just as "obsessively ranting" about the narrowness of the establishment as I do now. Hey, I'm in quite an improved frame of mind. I just got a quote for an anthology edited by Geof Huth that my Runaway Spoon Press will soon be publishing, and it's Very Reasonable, I think: around $600 for 200 copies of 5.5X8.5 glossy-4-color cover perfectbound 100-page book. Best, it's publish-on-demand, so one can order 25 copies at any time after the first run for only $60. Prices don't include shipping charges. Also, this is for PDF files, which I can do. All this illustrates, for me, that getting around the publishing branch of what I consider the poetry establishment is becoming easier and easier. Ironically, the NEA is funding one outlet for otherstream books, a bookstore in NY that stocks many visual poetry and similar books including some Runaway Spoons: Printed Matter, Inc. New York, NY $30,000 To support continued development of a Web-based catalogue raisonne documenting the history of artists books. While Printed Matter has been compiling a resource since its inception in 1976, new technologies have presented opportunities to expand the audience for the genre. --Bob G. From tadrichards Wed Apr 7 12:40:33 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:40:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience References: <1e8.1d33f56c.2da481b6@aol.com> Message-ID: <009b01c41cbf$0ccd5110$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Time that is intolerant Of the brave and innocent, And indifferent in a week To a beautiful physique, Worships language and forgives Everyone by whom it lives; ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 5:57 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience > Ted Hughes in "Words & Experience", from_Strong Words_ > (a collection of essays & statements of poetics by Modernist > & late 20th C poets)... > "...how are we to say what we see in a crow's flight? Is it not enough > to say the crow flies purposefully, or heavily, or rowingly, or whatever. > There are no words to capture the infinite depth of crowiness in the > crow's flight. All we can do is use a word as an indicator, or a whole > bunch of words as a directive. But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. And a bookload > of such descriptions is immediately rubbish when you look up and > see the crow flying." > (& later) > "In a way, words are continually trying to displace our experience. > And in so far as they are stronger than the raw life of our experience, > and full of themselves and all the dictionaries they have digested, > they do displace it." > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tadrichards Wed Apr 7 12:41:49 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:41:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards References: <142.263b8b30.2da4cc09@cs.com> Message-ID: <00a501c41cbf$3aa687a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Sam, this is great news. Congratulations. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 11:14 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards OK, I'm being shameless, but I'm very happy about this news! AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ARTS AND LETTERS HONORS 19 WRITERS WITH AWARDS New York, April 6, 2004 - The American Academy of Arts and Letters announced today the names of 19 writers who will receive its 2004 awards in literature. The awards will be presented in New York on May 19th at the Academy's annual Ceremonial. The literature prizes, totaling nearly $180,000 this year, honor both established and emerging writers of fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. The Academy's 250 members nominate candidates, and a rotating committee of writers selects winners. The members of the 2004 committee were Anthony Hecht, John Hollander, Romulus Linney, Reynolds Price, Jane Smiley, and Edmund White. Academy Awards in Literature Eight awards of $7,500 each honor writers of exceptional accomplishment in any genre. HENRI COLE MARILYN HACKER SAMUEL HYNES ARNOST LUSTIG JOE ASHBY PORTER LOUIS D. RUBIN PAULA VOGEL GREG WILLIAMSON Benjamin H. Danks Award $20,000 given to encourage a young writer of fiction, non-fiction, or poetry. DOUG WRIGHT E.M. Forster Award $15,000 to a young writer from England, Ireland, Scotland, or Wales for a stay in the United States. Award jury: Robert Creeley, Donald Hall, Alison Lurie. ROBIN ROBERTSON Sue Kaufman Prize for First Fiction $2,500 for the best work of first fiction (novel or short stories) published in 2003. NELL FREUDENBERGER, Lucky Girls Award of Merit for Poetry A medal and $10,000 given once every six years, to an outstanding poet. ROSANNA WARREN Katherine Anne Porter Award A biennial award of $20,000, given to a writer of prose. NICHOLSON BAKER Rome Fellowships in Literature One-year residency (2004-2005) at the American Academy in Rome. ANTHONY DOERR, writer LISA WILLIAMS, poet Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Foundation Award $5,000 for fiction of considerable literary accomplishment published in the preceding year. OLYMPIA VERNON, Eden Harold D. Vursell Memorial Award $10,000 for writing that merits recognition for the quality of its prose style. JUDITH THURMAN Michael Braude Award $5,000 for achievement in light verse. R. S. GWYNN Morton Dawen Zabel Award $5,000 to a progressive, original, and experimental writer. LEONARD BARKIN American Academy of Arts and Letters The Academy was founded in 1898 to "foster, assist, and sustain an interest in literature, music, and the fine arts." Each year, the Academy honors over 50 artists, architects, writers, and composers (who are not members) with cash awards. The amounts of these prizes range from $2,500 to $75,000. Other activities of the Academy are exhibitions of art, architecture, and manuscripts; publications on the Academy's history and events; and readings and performances of new musicals. The American Academy of Arts and Letters is located in two landmark buildings, designed by McKim, Mead &White and by Cass Gilbert, on Audubon Terrace at 155th Street and Broadway. Biographies of 2004 Award Winners in Literature Nicholson Baker (Katherine Anne Porter Award) was born in 1957 and attended the Eastman School of Music and Haverford College. He has published six novels, The Mezzanine, 1988; Room Temperature, 1990, Vox, 1992; The Fermata, 1994; The Everlasting Story of Nory, 1998, and A Box of Matches, 2003; and three works of nonfiction, U and I, 1991; The Size of Thoughts, 1996; and Double Fold, 2001. His work has appeared in The New Yorker, the London Review of Books, Best American Stories, The Atlantic, Harper's, and the New York Review of Books. Mr. Baker founded the American Newspaper Repository in 1999. Leonard Barkan (Morton Dawen Zabel Award) was born in New York City in 1944. He was educated at Swarthmore, Harvard, and Yale University. He is the Arthur W. Marks Professor of Comparative Literature and the director of the Society of Fellows at Princeton University where he has taught since 2001. His four books of non-fiction are: Nature's Work of Art: The Human Body as Image of the World, 1975; The Gods Made Flesh: Metamorphosis and the Pursuit of Paganism, 1986; Transuming Passion: Ganymede and the Erotics of Humanism, 1991; and Unearthing the Past: Archaeology and Aesthetics in the Making of Renaissance Culture, 1999. He has edited numerous books on Renaissance Drama, and his reviews have appeared in Modern Philology, and Shakespeare Quarterly. Mr. Barkan has won many awards including a PEN Architectural Digest Prize for Literary Writing in the Visual Arts. He is a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Henri Cole (Academy Award) was born in Fukuoka, Japan, in 1956. He grew up in Virginia and was educated at the College of William and Mary, University of Wisconsin, and Columbia University. Mr. Cole's poetry has been published in five collections: Middle Earth, 2003; The Visible Man, 1998; The Look of Things, 1995; The Zoo Wheel of Knowledge, 1989; and The Marble Queen, 1986. He has received the Kingly Tufts Poetry Award; Rome Prize in Literature from the American Academy of Arts and Letters; and fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Ingram Merrill Foundation. Anthony Doerr (Rome Fellowship) was educated at Bowdoin College and Bowling Green State University. He is the author of The Shell Collector: Stories (2002) and the forthcoming novel About Grace. He has received two O'Henry Awards for his short stories, a fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts and a 2003 Young Lions award from the New York Public Library for The Shell Collector. Mr. Doerr has taught at Boise State University, Bowling Green State University, and the University of Wisconsin. He is currently a Hodder Fellow at Princeton University Nell Freudenberger (Sue Kaufman Prize for First Fiction) was born in New York City in 1975. She attended Harvard University and New York University. Lucky Girls, a collection of short stories published in 2003, received the Pen/Faulkner Malamud Prize for Short Fiction. Her story The Tutor was selected for O'Henry Prize Stories and Best American Short Stories, both published in 2004. Other works of her fiction have appeared in The Paris Review, Granta, and The New Yorker. R.S. Gwynn (Michael Braude Award for Light Verse) was born in Eden, North Carolina, in 1948. He attended Davidson College and the University of Arkansas. He has taught at Southwest Texas State University, and since 1976, at Lamar University in Beaumont, Texas. He is the author of the poetry collections Bearing and Distance, 1977; The Drive-In, 1986; The Area Code of God, 1994; and No Word of Farewell: Poems 1970-2000, 2001. His satirical poem, The Narcissiad, was published in 1981. Gwynn has also edited anthologies of literature and criticism, including four for the Penguin Academics Pocket Anthology series. Marilyn Hacker (Academy Award) was born in Bronx, New York, in 1942. She is a professor of English at The City College of New York, and a professor of French at City University of New York, Graduate Center. She has published more than twelve books of poetry including Presentation Piece, 1974; Separations, 1976; Taking Notice, 1980; Assumptions, 1985; Love, Death, and the Changing of the Seasons, 1986; Going Back to the River, 1990; Winter Numbers: Poems, 1994; Squares and Courtyards, 2000; and First Cities: Collected Early Poems, 2003. Hacker's translations include the work of V?nus Khoury-Ghata, and Claire Malroux. Her poems, essays, and translations of other poets have been published in Poetry Daily Anthology, The Norton Anthology of Contemporary Poetry, Encyclopedia of American Literature, Poetry London, Clarion, Commonweal, The Paris Review, Ploughshares, and The New Yorker. Hacker's many awards include two National Book Critics' Circle Award nominations, an NEA grant, an Ingram-Merrill grant, and a Guggenheim fellowship. Samuel Hynes (Academy Award) was born in 1924 in Chicago, Illinois. He graduated from the University of Minnesota and received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Columbia University. He is Woodrow Wilson Professor of Literature Emeritus at Princeton University where he has taught since 1976. His works of literary criticism include The Edwardian Turn of Mind, 1962; Edwardian Occasions, 1972; The Auden Generation, 1976; and A War Imagined: The First World War and English Culture, 1990. His other books are Flights of Passage: Reflections of a World War II Aviator, 1988; The Soldier's Tale, 1997; and The Growing Seasons: An American Boyhood Before the War, 2003. Mr. Hynes is a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature. Arnost Lustig (Academy Award) was born in Prague, Czechoslovakia, in 1926. He immigrated to the United States in 1970. A survivor of three concentration camps, the Holocaust is the central theme of his fiction. He is the author of 18 books, among them A Prayer for Katerina Horovitzova, 1964; The Unloved: From the Diary of Perla S., 1979; Darkness Cast No Shadow, 1977; Street of Lost Brothers, 1990; Colette, 1992; Beautiful Green Eyes, 1995; Children of the Holocaust, 1995; and Lea from Leuvoorslen, 2000. Mr. Lustig divides his time writing and teaching between the United States and the Czech Republic. Joe Ashby Porter (Academy Award) was born in Madisonville, Kentucky, in 1942. He attended Harvard University, Oxford, and the University of California at Berkeley. He has taught at Duke University since 1980. Mr. Porter is the author of three short story collections: The Kentucky Stories, 1983; Lithuania, 1990; and Touch Wood, 2002; two novels: Eelgrass, 1977; and Resident Aliens, 2000; and two works of nonfiction on William Shakespeare. Among his honors are Pushcart Prizes, NEA/PEN Syndicated Fiction awards, and fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts. Robin Robertson (E.M. Forster Award) was born in 1955, in Scone, Scotland. His collection of poetry, A Painted Field (1997), won the UK's Forward Prize for best first book and the Scottish First Book of the Year award. His second collection, Slow Air, appeared in 2002. Since 1978 Robin Robertson has worked in publishing at Penguin Books, Secker &Warburg, and most recently Jonathan Cape, where he is deputy publishing director and poetry editor. Louis D. Rubin, Jr. (Academy Award) was born in Charleston, South Carolina, in 1923, and received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins University. He is Distinguished Professor of English Emeritus at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He is the founder and former director of Algonquin Books. He is the author of more than fifty books, including, The History of Southern Literature, 1985; The Edge of the Swamp: A Study in the Literature and Society of the Old South, 1989; The Mockingbird in the Gum Tree: A Literary Gallimaufry, 1991; The Golden Weather: a novel, 1995; An Honorable Estate: My Time in the Working Press, 200l; and My Father's People: A Family of Southern Jews, 2002. Rubin's essays and reviews have appeared in Virginia Quarterly Review, New York Times Book Review, Southern Review, and Washington Post Book World. Judith Thurman (Harold D. Vursell Memorial Award) was born in 1946 in New York City and attended Brandeis University. She is a contributing writer at Architectural Digest and has been on staff at The New Yorker since 1987. She has written four books of nonfiction: I Became Alone, 1973; The Magic Lantern: How Movies Got to Move, 1979; Isak Dinesen: The Life of a Storyteller, 1982 (for which she received a National Book award); and Secrets of the Flesh: A Life of Colette, 1999. Olympia Vernon (Richard and Hinda Rosenthal Award) was born in Bogalusa, Louisiana, in 1973. She was educated at Southeastern Louisiana University and received her M.F.A. from Louisiana Sate University. She has written two novels, Eden, 2003 and Logic, 2004. Vernon's honors include a Pulitzer Prize nomination for Eden. Paula Vogel (Academy Award) was born in 1951 in Washington, D.C. She graduated from Catholic University of America. She is the Adele Kellenberg Seaver Professor of Creative Writing at Brown University where she directs the M.F.A. playwriting program. Her plays include Desdemona, 1979; And Baby Makes Seven, 1981; The Oldest Profession, 1982; The Baltimore Waltz, 1992; Hot 'n' Throbbing, 1994; Mineola Twins, 1996; and The Long Christmas Ride Home, 2003. Her play How I Learned To Drive won an Obie, New York Drama Critics award, Outer Critics Circle award, and the 1998 Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Vogel's honors include a Guggenheim fellowship, an NEA fellowship, and the Pew Charitable Trust Senior award. Her work was selected for the 2004-2005 season of the Signature Theater in New York. Rosanna Warren (Academy Award) attended Yale and Johns Hopkins Universities. She began teaching at Boston University in 1982, and is currently the Emma MacLachlan Metcalf Professor of the Humanities and Professor of English and Foreign Modern Languages. Ms. Warren is the author of four collections of poetry: Snow Day, 1981; Each Leaf Shines Separate, 1984; Stained Glass, 1993; Departure, 2003; one novel: The Joey Story, 1963; and a verse translation of the Euripides' play Suppliant Women. Among her awards are an Ingram Merrill Grant for Poetry, Guggenheim fellowship, Lamont Poetry prize (Academy of American Poets), Lisa Wallace Readers' Digest award, and the Witter Bynner Poetry prize from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. Lisa Williams (Rome Fellowship) was born in 1966, in Nashville, Tennessee. She attended Belmont University in Nashville and received her M.A. from the University of Cincinnati, and her M.F.A in creative writing/poetry from the University of Virginia. She is Assistant Professor of English at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky. Her book of poetry, The Hammered Dulcimer was published in 1998. Her poems have been published in Southeast Review, Raritan, The New Republic, and Virginia Quarterly Review. Williams has won an Academy of American Poets prize (University of Virginia), and a May Swenson Poetry award. Greg Williamson (Academy Award) was born in 1964, in Columbus, Ohio. He attended Vanderbilt University, University of Wisconsin, and Johns Hopkins, where he has taught since 1989. His first collection of poetry, The Silent Partner, won the 1995 Nicholas Roerich Poetry Prize. In 1998, Mr. Williamson received the Whiting Writers' award, and the Elizabeth Matchett Stover Memorial award for the best poem of the year in Southwest Review. His second book, Errors in the Script, was published in 2001. Doug Wright (Benjamin H. Danks Award) was educated at Yale University and received his M.F.A. from New York University. He has taught playwriting at N.Y.U. and Princeton University. His plays include The Stonewater Rapture, 1984; Interrogating the Nude, 1989; Quills, 1995; Watbanaland, 1995; I Am My Own Wife, 2003, and a musical, Buzzsaw Berkely, 1989, with music and lyrics by Michael John LaChiusa. Quills received the 1995 Kesselring prize for Best New American Play from the National Arts Club and a 1995 Obie award for Outstanding Achievement in Playwriting. Wright has received the William L. Bradely fellowship at Yale University, the Charles MacAthur fellowship at the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center, an HBO fellowship in playwriting, and the Alfred Hodder fellowship at Princeton University. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Wed Apr 7 12:44:16 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:44:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A28B@ariel.ripon.edu> But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From eliotpoe Tue Apr 6 22:04:03 2004 From: eliotpoe (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:04:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello... Message-ID: Fellow Literati, Just walked into the debate about teaching poetry at some college level between Bob, Louie and Jeff. Spirited stuff! Just joined this listserv. Don't even remember how it came to me; think I got an invitation from our e-zine's inbox. As for the discussion, I do not feel Thomas Jefferson intended our public school system, which now ascends to graduate levels beyond his imagining, to be a compulsory punishment. To teach a non-appreciative captive audience seems a punishment in itself. Still loved the positive anecdotes the one teacher related regarding his influence, esp. on the lawyer who went literary. And the cummings recital from the desktop and the coffee cup from the trash inspiring the Wordsworth recitation! Understood the opposite frustration as well. Lucky for me, I don't have to make my living teaching poetry, do however tutor individually one-on-one online. My students seek me out and pay me, so I have the advantage of a selection error--they come for poetry! Look forward to participating here. Liked the hopeful poem at the bottom by our new Pulitzer Winner, couldn't believe someone so straightforward and spiritually optimistic, ala Jane Kenyon, could win a Pulitzer. Gotta check out his larger work, as this poem made my jaded editor's eyes pause for a little dose of humility and innocence before accepting it for what it was. All for now, C. E. Chaffin p.s. Anyone with a yen to read about Eliot's most depressing poem, here's a link to my take on the "The Hollow Men," just out: http://www.melicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 13:02:53 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:02:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello... References: Message-ID: <01a301c41cc2$2c8c4580$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Welcome CE. Not to compete with you, but if any of your students want post-grad tutoring in pluraesthetic and infraverbal poetry for whatever you're charging, send them to me! I'll give you a referral fee equal to ten percent what I make off each! I'm serious in that I would accept such students, unserious in that I can't imagine anyone requesting me as a tutor. I've done articles for standard references on my subject, though, so that makes me an expert, right? --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: C. E. Chaffin To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:04 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello... Fellow Literati, Just walked into the debate about teaching poetry at some college level between Bob, Louie and Jeff. Spirited stuff! Just joined this listserv. Don't even remember how it came to me; think I got an invitation from our e-zine's inbox. As for the discussion, I do not feel Thomas Jefferson intended our public school system, which now ascends to graduate levels beyond his imagining, to be a compulsory punishment. To teach a non-appreciative captive audience seems a punishment in itself. Still loved the positive anecdotes the one teacher related regarding his influence, esp. on the lawyer who went literary. And the cummings recital from the desktop and the coffee cup from the trash inspiring the Wordsworth recitation! Understood the opposite frustration as well. Lucky for me, I don't have to make my living teaching poetry, do however tutor individually one-on-one online. My students seek me out and pay me, so I have the advantage of a selection error--they come for poetry! Look forward to participating here. Liked the hopeful poem at the bottom by our new Pulitzer Winner, couldn't believe someone so straightforward and spiritually optimistic, ala Jane Kenyon, could win a Pulitzer. Gotta check out his larger work, as this poem made my jaded editor's eyes pause for a little dose of humility and innocence before accepting it for what it was. All for now, C. E. Chaffin p.s. Anyone with a yen to read about Eliot's most depressing poem, here's a link to my take on the "The Hollow Men," just out: http://www.melicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 13:06:38 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:06:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A28B@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <01a901c41cc2$b2957930$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, > > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the > > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, > > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, > > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. > > > The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. I agree except that as a taxonomist, I would have to say it is simply poetic prose (even outside my own taxonomy). Even taken out of context. Unless lineated, in which case it becomes, for me, a poem. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 Wed Apr 7 13:47:00 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:47:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience Message-ID: <1d8.1e72b715.2da59894@cs.com> In a message dated 4/7/2004 12:07:51 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, > >>the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the > >>caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, > >>as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > >>sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > >>undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > >>phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, > >>glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. > > > > > >The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. Where's it from? A non-poetic source, I assume. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD Wed Apr 7 14:22:26 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:22:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A28D@ariel.ripon.edu> > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2004 12:47 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience > > I > >The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. > > > Where's it from? A non-poetic source, I assume. > > Ted Hughes in "Words & Experience", from_Strong Words_ > > (a collection of essays & statements of poetics by Modernist > > & late 20th C poets)... > > "...how are we to say what we see in a crow's flight? Is it not enough > > to say the crow flies purposefully, or heavily, or rowingly, or > whatever. > > There are no words to capture the infinite depth of crowiness in the > > crow's flight. All we can do is use a word as an indicator, or a whole > > bunch of words as a directive. But the ominous thing in the crow's > flight, > > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the > > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, > > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, > > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. And a bookload > > of such descriptions is immediately rubbish when you look up and > > see the crow flying." > > ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From bobgrumman Wed Apr 7 14:26:21 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:26:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A28D@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <01f901c41ccd$d563d6e0$58efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> See what winning a prize does to the mind? --Bob G., who won't have to worry about THAT particular brand of mind-blottery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:22 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience > > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2004 12:47 PM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience > > > > I > > >The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. > > > > > > Where's it from? A non-poetic source, I assume. > > > > Ted Hughes in "Words & Experience", from_Strong Words_ > > > (a collection of essays & statements of poetics by Modernist > > > & late 20th C poets)... > > > "...how are we to say what we see in a crow's flight? Is it not enough > > > to say the crow flies purposefully, or heavily, or rowingly, or > > whatever. > > > There are no words to capture the infinite depth of crowiness in the > > > crow's flight. All we can do is use a word as an indicator, or a whole > > > bunch of words as a directive. But the ominous thing in the crow's > > flight, > > > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the > > > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, > > > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > > > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > > > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > > > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, > > > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. And a bookload > > > of such descriptions is immediately rubbish when you look up and > > > see the crow flying." > > > > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From reneea Wed Apr 7 15:42:24 2004 From: reneea (Renee Ashley) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:42:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards References: Message-ID: <024b01c41cd8$73ae1a40$da66fea9@Barnette> Re: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters AwardsAnd major clapping from north Jersey as well! Wonderful! Congratulations to all! Renee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Wed Apr 7 18:05:53 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:05:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards In-Reply-To: <142.263b8b30.2da4cc09@cs.com> References: <142.263b8b30.2da4cc09@cs.com> Message-ID: Is there a web page for the academy? Any online announcement besides Sam's email? From Rsgwynn1 Wed Apr 7 18:08:40 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:08:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards Message-ID: <15b.320a0918.2da5d5e8@cs.com> In a message dated 4/7/2004 5:06:42 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > Is there a web page for the academy? Any online announcement besides > Sam's email? > There isn't one. That was, however, a press release. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin Wed Apr 7 18:32:21 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:32:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards In-Reply-To: <15b.320a0918.2da5d5e8@cs.com> References: <15b.320a0918.2da5d5e8@cs.com> Message-ID: <6FA8C245-88E3-11D8-BC8F-000393C29586@mac.com> On Apr 7, 2004, at 6:08 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/7/2004 5:06:42 PM Central Daylight Time, > mandolin at mac.com writes: > > Is there a? web? page for the academy? Any online announcement besides > Sam's email? > > > There isn't one.? That was, however, a press release. Thanks, Sam. I was looking for a link I could use at my blog--do you mind if I quote the press release from your email? Michael From Rsgwynn1 Wed Apr 7 18:36:12 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:36:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards Message-ID: <33.4655835e.2da5dc5c@cs.com> Backchannel me and I'll send you the revised release. There were a couple of errors in the one I posted on Wom-Po. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly Wed Apr 7 20:38:18 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 20:38:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sebastolpol, CA: Bromige and Daly read Message-ID: Thursday, April 8, 2004 7:00 PM David Bromige and Catherine Daly: Poetry Reading Location: SEBASTOPOL, 138 North Main Street, (707) 823-2618 Former Sonoma County poet laureate and widely-published poet and teacher David Bromige is joined tonight by Los Angeles experimental poet Catherine Daly, whose work in her books Locket and DaDaDa has been described as "post-language poetry devoted to sound play and pleasure." Bromige will read from his book T is for Tether. Don't miss what is sure to be an evening of linguistic virtuosity. http://www.copperfields.net/NASApp/store/IndexJsp;jsessionid=6D3DCB3BA5294615D 909FB1CFD622FD4.t1?s=storeevents&eventId=265175 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cobbcostudioarts Wed Apr 7 22:06:45 2004 From: cobbcostudioarts (cobbcostudioarts at pro.talentx.com) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:06:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404080201.i38211XE010104@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marcus Thu Apr 8 09:59:30 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 09:59:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Gallon of Gas In-Reply-To: <6FA8C245-88E3-11D8-BC8F-000393C29586@mac.com> References: <15b.320a0918.2da5d5e8@cs.com> Message-ID: <40752282.30527.B1162B@localhost> A Gallon of Gas Well, I'm just a bit apprehensive About the world's crude oil supply: If a gallon of gas is expensive In March how's it look for July? I don't want to make you defensive Regarding the products you buy But I have just seen some extensive Results on which prices are high, For Evian water you're paying Per bottle a buck and a half -- Which works out to something dismaying Per gallon if not per carafe; Vick's Nyquil may keep you from spraying Wet sneezes all over your staff, But its pricing per gallon is playing With two hundred bucks -- what a laugh! That bottle of Witeout, begun on The thins soon has dried to the thicks -- And it also won't soon be out-done on The prices they manage to fix. So whatever gas prices get done on By a gasoline company's tricks Be glad that your car doesn't run on Evian, Whiteout, or Vicks. From CobbCoStudioArts Thu Apr 8 10:43:44 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Virus found: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <20040408144344.4695D394C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: cobbcostudioarts at pro.talentx.com Subject: Virus found: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:06:45 -0400 Size: 5742 URL: From FINDINGTHEWORD Thu Apr 8 11:05:56 2004 From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:05:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] on the poetry of Barbara Cole Message-ID: After Barbara Cole read in Philadelphia recently, I asked if she would be interested in a little Q&A. Below is the result. For those who missed the reading, let me tell you, it was pretty fantastic! But if you weren't there, you have this Q&A, so enjoy: posted this morning on: http://phillysound.blogspot.com From JforJames Thu Apr 8 13:30:54 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:30:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] YEATS SUMMER SCHOOL Message-ID: <24.534278c5.2da6e64e@aol.com> PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS INFORMATION ABOUT THE YEATS SUMMER SCHOOL. THANKS --Jonathan Allison. 45th W.B. Yeats International Summer School Sunday 1st Friday 13th August, 2004, Sligo, Ireland / www.yeats-sligo.com Readings: SEAMUS HEANEY, JORIE GRAHAM, COLM TOIBIN BRENDAN KENNELLY, RICHARD MURPHY, BERNARD ODONOGHUE FRANCES THOMPSON, JOYELLE McSWEENEY Official opening: BRENDAN KENNELLY (Trinity College Dublin), 1st August 2004 Poetry workshop: JORIE GRAHAM (Harvard) Drama workshop: SAM McCREADY (Maryland) Lectures & seminars: Jonathan Allison (University of Kentucky, Director) Margaret Mills Harper (Georgia State University, Assoc. Director) Massimo Bacigalupo (University of Genoa) Margot Backus University of Houston, Texas) George Bornstein (University of Michigan) Rand Brandes (Lenoir-Rhyne College, North Carolina) Fran Brearton (Queens University, Belfast) Roy Foster (Hertford College, Oxford) John Kelly (St. Johns College, Oxford) Brendan Kennelly (Trinity College, Dublin) Declan Kiely (New York University) Elizabeth Bergman Loizeaux (University of Maryland) Sam McCready (Baltimore, Maryland) Ronan McDonald (University of Reading) Maureen Murphy (Hofstra University, New York) Bernard ODonoghue (Wadham College, Oxford) Richard Pine (Durrell School of Corfu) Peter Sacks (Harvard University) Colm Toibin (Dublin) Derval Tubridy (Goldsmiths College, London) Helen Vendler (Harvard University) George Watson (University of Aberdeen) Low tuition fees / Financial support for students / Comfortable lodgings / Academic credit for students / Official Certificate of Attendance _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Yes, please send me a brochure and application form for YSS 2004 NAME_____________________________________________ ADDRESS__________________________________________ EMAIL or PHONE___________________________________ Send to: Yeats Summer School, Douglas Hyde Bridge, Sligo, Ireland / Tel +353 (0)71 42693 Fax +353 (0)71 42780 / Email info at yeats-sligo.com ------------------------------ Jonathan Allison, Visiting Fellow, The Institute for Advanced Studies in the Humanities, The University of Edinburgh, Hope Park Square, Edinburgh EH8 9NW Tel. 0131 651 1169 / 651 1173 Fax 0131 668 2252 From chryss Thu Apr 8 17:14:59 2004 From: chryss (Chryss Yost) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:14:59 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in So Cal this weekend Message-ID: Sorry for the last minute notice. Times have just now been confirmed for this event. If you're going to be near San Diego tomorrow, Warner Springs Ranch is a family resort in the vicinity of Julian/Palomar Mtn. There is a delicious restaurant and charming cantina on the premises, along with a hot springs pool. This reading will focus on the nature poetry in the collection. CALIFORNIA POETRY READING Read by poet and editor Chryss Yost Friday, April 9, 6:00 pm Warner Springs Ranch FREE PUBLIC WELCOME! http://www.warnersprings.com Also, reminder CHRYSS YOST and DAVID MASON Saturday, April 10, 7:00 pm Carnegie Museum $3 non-members Hosted by Jackson Wheeler Happy Easter, C. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.chryssyost.com CALIFORNIA POETRY: From the Gold Rush to the Present "An instantly indispensable new anthology" - SF Chronicle Reviews and coming events at http://www.californiapoetry.org From JforJames Thu Apr 8 21:01:17 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:01:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] D. Nurkse's THE FALL. Message-ID: <80.8f874c9.2da74fdd@aol.com> A poem about childhood from D. Nurkse's THE FALL. *************************************** At The Stage of Riddles I tiptoed behind my father and cupped my hands over his eyes and whispered: Guess Who? Always he thought hard and answered gravely: Eisenhower. Or DiMaggio. And I was happy, knowing he was safe from my love. Almost I envied him the brevity of his confinement in the unknowable darkness. *************************************** From JforJames Thu Apr 8 21:41:13 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:41:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Q&A, Robt. Hayden Message-ID: <194.26fedf3a.2da75939@aol.com> Q: What about 'Middle Passage'? A: That grew out of my interest in Afro-American history during the forties. It was to be part of a long work--a series of poems-- dealing with slavery and the Civil War. I'd read Stephen Vincent Ben?t's poem, 'John Brown's Body', and was struck by the passage in which he says he cannot sing of the "black spear" and that a poet will appear some day who will do so. I hoped to be that poet, and I also hoped to correct the false impressions of our past, to reveal something of its heroic and human aspects. I was fascinated then, as I still am, by Civil War history, the African background, the history of slavery. I spent several years in desultory research. I wrote 'Middle Passage' and several other sections during the forties. But, I'm sorry to say, I never achieved my total design, owing to the fact that it was next to impossible for me to find enough time for sustained work on the book. Robert Hayden, "A Romantic Realist", reprinted from _Interviews with Black Writers_, Liveright, 1973. (Collected Prose, Robert Hayden, Poets on Poetry, U of Michigan Press) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 8 21:58:32 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:58:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lucie Brock-Broido's new collection Message-ID: <140.2671bff1.2da75d48@aol.com> This poem is from Lucie Brock-Broido's new collection TROUBLE IN MIND. The poem's title refers to an ancient Jewish mourning ritual in which guardians keep constant vigil beside a dead body, affording company for the soul which, according to tradition, is said to hover over the body until burial. *************************************** Soul Keeping Company The hours between washing and the well Of burial are the soul's most troubled time. I sat with her in keeping company All through the affliction of the night, keeping Soul constant, a second self. Earth is heavy And I made no wish, save being Merely magical. I am magical No more. This, I well remember well. In the sweet thereafter the impress Of the senses will be tattooed to The whole world ravelling in the clemency Of an autumn of Octobers, all that bounty Bountiful and the oaks specifically Afire as everything dies off, inclining To the merciful. I would have made of my body A body to protect her, anything to keep Her well & here -in the soul's suite Before five tons of earth will bear On her, stay here Soul, in the good night of my company. *************************************** From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 8 22:43:27 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:43:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A Gallon of Gas Message-ID: <162.2de5f5d0.2da767cf@cs.com> In a message dated 4/8/2004 9:01:16 AM Central Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > > A Gallon of Gas > > Well, I'm just a bit apprehensive > About the world's crude oil supply: > If a gallon of gas is expensive > In March how's it look for July? > I don't want to make you defensive > Regarding the products you buy > But I have just seen some extensive > Results on which prices are high, > > For Evian water you're paying > Per bottle a buck and a half -- > Which works out to something dismaying > Per gallon if not per carafe; > Vick's Nyquil may keep you from spraying > Wet sneezes all over your staff, > But its pricing per gallon is playing > With two hundred bucks -- what a laugh! > > That bottle of Witeout, begun on > The thins soon has dried to the thicks -- > And it also won't soon be out-done on > The prices they manage to fix. > So whatever gas prices get done on > By a gasoline company's tricks > Be glad that your car doesn't run on > Evian, Whiteout, or Vicks. > Hey, if I could run my SUV on Vicks, I would! Funny poem. Send it to Light Quarterly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Fri Apr 9 13:07:38 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:07:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] London query In-Reply-To: <9E551818-8883-11D8-8B73-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <675ED874-8A48-11D8-8120-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Can anyone recommend good poetry readings in London? We'll be there during the first half of June. (If there are venues that might want to host readings by a couple of American poets, we'd be available for that too.) Backchannel if you please. And thanks. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan From MillB Fri Apr 9 13:14:41 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 13:14:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] London query Message-ID: <1e5.1d3cedd2.2da83401@aol.com> Wendy, Go to Lambs Conduit Street! Cheers, Mill Situated just north of Theobalds Road and Red Lion Street, Lambs Conduit Street is traffic free and lined with attractive buildings. There are a couple of excellent pubs, purveyors of fine food, galleries and bookstores. It's one of the jewels in Holborn's crown. Just pop in and look for reading flyers. . .or announcements. FYI Patrick Marber and Julian Barnes read their favourite prose and poetry, in aid of human rights charity ... Paul Wadsworth, Pilgrim Gallery, 58 Lambs Conduit Street, WC1 (020-7269 6980 ... Writers Circle offers advice on/for/about poetry. Presents 'Performance Poetry' and extends the poetic licence to ... Conduit Poetry Workshop. Will Vaughan, 28a Lambs Conduit Street, London, WC1 ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 Fri Apr 9 14:06:04 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry In-Reply-To: <675ED874-8A48-11D8-8120-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <20040409180604.54110.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, This may seem like an odd request, but can anyone recommend a good anthology of contemporary or modern Australian poetry? If not an anthology, then maybe the names of a few Australian poets who are working and writing presently. A web search didn't give me too much to go on, so I'm wondering if anyone has some specialized information. Thanks in advance for any answers to my query. Jeff Newberry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From anny.ballardini Fri Apr 9 14:18:59 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 20:18:59 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry References: <20040409180604.54110.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c41e5f$21545d80$4b737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi Jeff, I think you can find here useful information: http://jacketmagazine.com/ the founder is John Tranter: http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/tranter/jacket.html and here is his bibliography with some good Australian antologies, I think, I don't have them but planning sooner or later to get them: http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/tranter/biblio.html or at least the Penguin collection. Take care, Anny From: "Jeff Newberry" Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 8:06 PM > Hi everybody, > > This may seem like an odd request, but can anyone > recommend a good anthology of contemporary or modern > Australian poetry? If not an anthology, then maybe > the names of a few Australian poets who are working > and writing presently. > > A web search didn't give me too much to go on, so I'm > wondering if anyone has some specialized information. > > Thanks in advance for any answers to my query. > > Jeff Newberry > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Fri Apr 9 14:46:50 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 14:46:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry References: <20040409180604.54110.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01bc01c41e63$06f3e7e0$55efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Pete Spence! But his stuff is more visual than textual so you probably won't like it. He's in and has edited anthologies of Australian poetry. Here's one that's online: http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/thalia/aus.htm. My own Runaway Spoon Press has published his collaboration with Cornelius Vleeskens (also Australian, I'm pretty sure), ALPHA-CARTOGRAPHY, SOUTH BY SOUTH. --Bob G. From mandolin Fri Apr 9 14:57:16 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 14:57:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry In-Reply-To: <20040409180604.54110.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040409180604.54110.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2004, at 2:06 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Hi everybody, > > This may seem like an odd request, but can anyone > recommend a good anthology of contemporary or modern > Australian poetry? If not an anthology, then maybe > the names of a few Australian poets who are working > and writing presently. The poet Alison Croggon edits Masthead, an Australian literary magazine. Here's her home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com/ From MillB Fri Apr 9 15:54:12 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 15:54:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry Message-ID: <15.25f49272.2da85964@aol.com> Jeff, You might check out the Westerly Centre for Studies in Literature in Australia. The publish a fine literary magazine, which sometimes features Australian writers, etc. Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Fri Apr 9 15:50:10 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:50:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring, 2004, issue of The Salt River Review Message-ID: <4076FE72.CDC30591@earthlink.net> The Spring, 2004, issue of The Salt River Review is now online. Poetry by Julie R. Enszer, Wendy Taylor Carlisle, Jim Simmerman, Tad Richards, Damon McLaughlin, David Cade, Robert Lietz, & Rochelle Ratner. Fiction by David Applegate & Gwendolyn Joyce Mintz. http://www.poetserv.org/ From grahamd Fri Apr 9 17:08:44 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 16:08:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/9/04 1:57 PM, Michael Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote: > > On Apr 9, 2004, at 2:06 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Hi everybody, >> >> This may seem like an odd request, but can anyone >> recommend a good anthology of contemporary or modern >> Australian poetry? If not an anthology, then maybe >> the names of a few Australian poets who are working >> and writing presently. A big site collecting Australian literature is Ozlit: http://home.vicnet.net.au/%7Eozlit/index.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From cc Fri Apr 9 18:23:34 2004 From: cc (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 15:23:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Santa Barbara Celebration of National Poetry Month In-Reply-To: <200404091601.i39G13XE024075@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Greetings New-Po list enthusiasts! I have returned from a short list sabbatical to announce the SB April festivities at http://www.opus0.com/sbpoetrymonth.html. Our next event will be an evening reading in honor of Barry Spacks. If you happen to be in town, please come along. Crisman From grahamd Sat Apr 10 13:13:55 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:13:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cynthia Huntington Message-ID: I've been really appreciating Cynthia Huntington's new collection, *The Radiant*, one of the books I picked up at the AWP book fair recently. Would love to hear others' takes on it. The Rapture I remember standing in the kitchen, stirring bones for soup, and in that moment, I became another person. It was an early spring evening, the air California mild. Outside, the eucalyptus was bowing compulsively over the neighbor's motor home parked in the driveway. The street was quiet for once, and all the windows were open. Then my right arm tingled, a flutter started under the skin. Fire charged down the nerve of my leg; my scalp exploded in pricks of light. I shuddered and felt like laughing; it was exhilarating as an earthquake. A city on fire after an earthquake. Then I trembled and my legs shook, and every muscle gripped so I fell and lay on my side, a bolt driven down my skull into my spine. My legs were swimming against the linoleum, and I looked up at the underside of the stove, the dirty places where the sponge didn't reach. Everything collapsed there in one place, one flash of time. There in my body. In the kitchen at six in the evening, April. A wooden spoon clutched in my hand, the smell of chicken broth. And in that moment I knew everything that would come after: the vision was complete as it seized me. Without diagnosis, without history, I knew that my life was changed. I seemed to have become entirely myself in that instant. Not the tests, examinations in specialists' offices, not the laboratory procedures: MRI, lumbar puncture, electrodes pasted to my scalp, the needle scraped along the sole of my foot, following one finger with the eyes, EEG, CAT scan, myelogram. Not the falling down or the blindness and tremors, the stumble and hiss in the blood, not the lying in bed in the afternoons. Not phenobarbitol, amitriptylene, prednisone, amantadine, ACTH, cortisone, cytoxan, copolymer, baclofen, tegretol, but this: Six o'clock in the evening in April, stirring bones for soup. An event whose knowledge arrived whole, its meaning taking years to open, to seem a destiny. It lasted thirty seconds, no more. Then my muscles unlocked, the surge and shaking left my body and I lay still beneath the white high ceiling. Then I got up and stood there, quiet, alone, just beginning to be afraid. --Cynthia Huntington. *The Radiant*. Four Way Books, 2003. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman Sat Apr 10 14:17:55 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:17:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cynthia Huntington References: Message-ID: <013f01c41f28$2745b850$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I've been really appreciating Cynthia Huntington's new collection, *The > Radiant*, one of the books I picked up at the AWP book fair recently. Would > love to hear others' takes on it. But maybe not all others. Nonetheless. . . . A what happened to me Iowa School poem. Very well done because what happened was to a highly sensitive, extremely articulate person, and what happened was very dramatic. What more can be said except that I'm sure we have a prize-winning poet here. Her name sounds familiar, so maybe I've already been told that here. > > The Rapture > > I remember standing in the kitchen, stirring bones for soup, > and in that moment, I became another person. > > It was an early spring evening, the air California mild. > Outside, the eucalyptus was bowing compulsively > > over the neighbor's motor home parked in the driveway. > The street was quiet for once, and all the windows were open. > > Then my right arm tingled, a flutter started under the skin. > Fire charged down the nerve of my leg; my scalp exploded > > in pricks of light. I shuddered and felt like laughing; > it was exhilarating as an earthquake. A city on fire > > after an earthquake. Then I trembled and my legs shook, > and every muscle gripped so I fell and lay on my side, > > a bolt driven down my skull into my spine. My legs were > swimming against the linoleum, and I looked up at the underside > > of the stove, the dirty places where the sponge didn't reach. > Everything collapsed there in one place, one flash of time. > > There in my body. In the kitchen at six in the evening, April. > A wooden spoon clutched in my hand, the smell of chicken broth. > > And in that moment I knew everything that would come after: > the vision was complete as it seized me. Without diagnosis, > > without history, I knew that my life was changed. > I seemed to have become entirely myself in that instant. > > Not the tests, examinations in specialists' offices, not > the laboratory procedures: MRI, lumbar puncture, electrodes > > pasted to my scalp, the needle scraped along the sole of my foot, > following one finger with the eyes, EEG, CAT scan, myelogram. > > Not the falling down or the blindness and tremors, the stumble > and hiss in the blood, not the lying in bed in the afternoons. > > Not phenobarbitol, amitriptylene, prednisone, amantadine, ACTH, > cortisone, cytoxan, copolymer, baclofen, tegretol, but this: > > Six o'clock in the evening in April, stirring bones for soup. > An event whose knowledge arrived whole, its meaning taking years > > to open, to seem a destiny. It lasted thirty seconds, no more. > Then my muscles unlocked, the surge and shaking left my body > > and I lay still beneath the white high ceiling. Then I got up > and stood there, quiet, alone, just beginning to be afraid. > > --Cynthia Huntington. *The Radiant*. Four Way Books, 2003. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Sat Apr 10 14:39:24 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:39:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cynthia Huntington In-Reply-To: <013f01c41f28$2745b850$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/10/04 1:17 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > A what happened to me Iowa School poem. Very well done because what > happened was to a highly sensitive, extremely articulate person, and what > happened was > very dramatic. What more can be said except that I'm sure we have a > prize-winning poet here. Yeah, we gotta put a stop to these "what happened to me" poems. You wanna notify Sappho and Keats, or shall I? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman Sat Apr 10 14:53:19 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:53:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cynthia Huntington References: Message-ID: <01f801c41f2d$199c2770$34efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > A what happened to me Iowa School poem. As usual I wasn't explicit enough. What it is, is a "what happened to me in my very ordinary American life Iowa Workshop poem." That is a description, not a judgement. > > Very well done because what > > happened was to a highly sensitive, extremely articulate person, and what > > happened was > > very dramatic. What more can be said except that I'm sure we have a > > prize-winning poet here. > Yeah, we gotta put a stop to these "what happened to me" poems. You wanna > notify Sappho and Keats, or shall I? --Bob G. From grahamd Sun Apr 11 12:09:08 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:09:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Easter Morning Message-ID: I guess this has become my Easter tradition, posting this poem each year. . . . Easter Morning I have a life that did not become, that turned aside and stopped, astonished: I hold it in me like a pregnancy or as on my lap a child not to grow or grow old but dwell on it is to his grave I most frequently return and return to ask what is wrong, what was wrong, to see it all by the light of a different necessity but the grave will not heal and the child, stirring, must share my grave with me, an old man having gotten by on what was left when I go back to my home country in these fresh far-away days, it's convenient to visit everybody, aunts and uncles, those who used to say, look how he's shooting up, and the trinket aunts who always had a little something in their pocketbooks, cinnamon bark or a penny or nickel, and uncles who were the rumored fathers of cousins who whispered of them as of great, if troubled, presences, and school teachers, just about everybody older (and some younger) collected in one place waiting, particularly, but not for me, mother and father there, too, and others close, close as burrowing under skin, all in the graveyard assembled, done for, the world they used to wield, have trouble and joy in, gone the child in me that could not become was not ready for others to go, to go on into change, blessings and horrors, but stands there by the road where the mishap occurred, crying out for help, come and fix this or we can't get by, but the great ones who were to return, they could not or did not hear and went on in a flurry and now, I say in the graveyard, here lies the flurry, now it can't come back with help or helpful asides, now we all buy the bitter incompletions, pick up the knots of horror, silently raving, and go on crashing into empty ends not completions, not rondures the fullness has come into and spent itself from I stand on the stump of a child, whether myself or my little brother who died, and yell as far as I can, I cannot leave this place, for for me it is the dearest and the worst, it is life nearest to life which is life lost: it is my place where I must stand and fail, calling attention with tears to the branches not lofting boughs into space, to the barren air that holds the world that was my world though the incompletions (& completions) burn out standing in the flash high-burn momentary structure of ash, still it is a picture-book, letter-perfect Easter morning: I have been for a walk: the wind is tranquil: the brook works without flashing in an abundant tranquility: the birds are lively with voice: I saw something I had never seen before: two great birds, maybe eagles, blackwinged, whitenecked and -headed, came from the south oaring the great wings steadily; they went directly over me, high up, and kept on due north: but then one bird, the one behind, veered a little to the left and the other bird kept on seeming not to notice for a minute: the first began to circle as if looking for something, coasting, resting its wings on the down side of some of the circles: the other bird came back and they both circled, looking perhaps for a draft; they turned a few more times, possibly rising--at least, clearly resting? then flew on falling into distance till they broke across the local bush and trees: it was a sight of bountiful majesty and integrity: the having patterns and routes, breaking from them to explore other patterns or better ways to routes, and then the return: a dance sacred as the sap in the trees, permanent in its descriptions as the ripples round the brook's ripplestone: fresh as this particular flood of burn breaking across us now from the sun. --A. R. Ammons ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From terzarima Sun Apr 11 13:06:15 2004 From: terzarima (terzarima at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:06:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? Message-ID: <410-22004401117615534@M2W096.mail2web.com> Gah, has anyone heard anything about this? The book is about to close on the nation???s oldest all-poetry store. I know they have had a number of close calls in the past, but it sounds like it has always managed to hold on. I have not heard any other announcements about this in any of the usual places, but still. I would hope that if worse came to worse it would be sold rather than closed down completely. On the subject of all poetry bookshops, are there any others that people know of? Suzanne -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From anny.ballardini Sun Apr 11 13:35:08 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:35:08 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] call_for_papers Message-ID: <011f01c41feb$55f79100$72737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> Exile and Otherness. Call for Papers New Approaches to the Experience of the Nazi Refugees http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/stephan30/conferences/ExileNother/call_for_papers.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Apr 11 13:41:24 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 19:41:24 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Easter Morning References: Message-ID: <012701c41fec$35988f30$72737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> A very moving poem, for me it is the first year I read it, hope to read it again next year, a beautiful day here, I would like it to rewind to this morning again, care, Anny From: "David Graham" Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 6:09 PM > I guess this has become my Easter tradition, posting this poem each year. . > . . > > > > > Easter Morning > > > I have a life that did not become, > that turned aside and stopped, > astonished: > I hold it in me like a pregnancy or > as on my lap a child > not to grow or grow old but dwell on > > it is to his grave I most > frequently return and return > to ask what is wrong, what was > wrong, to see it all by > the light of a different necessity > but the grave will not heal > and the child, > stirring, must share my grave > with me, an old man having > gotten by on what was left > > when I go back to my home country in these > fresh far-away days, it's convenient to visit > everybody, aunts and uncles, those who used to say, > look how he's shooting up, and the > trinket aunts who always had a little > something in their pocketbooks, cinnamon bark > or a penny or nickel, and uncles who > were the rumored fathers of cousins > who whispered of them as of great, if > troubled, presences, and school > teachers, just about everybody older > (and some younger) collected in one place > waiting, particularly, but not for > me, mother and father there, too, and others > close, close as burrowing > under skin, all in the graveyard assembled, > done for, the world they > used to wield, have trouble and joy > in, gone > > the child in me that could not become > was not ready for others to go, > to go on into change, blessings and > horrors, but stands there by the road > where the mishap occurred, crying out for > help, come and fix this or we > can't get by, but the great ones who > were to return, they could not or did > not hear and went on in a flurry and > now, I say in the graveyard, here > lies the flurry, now it can't come > back with help or helpful asides, now > we all buy the bitter > incompletions, pick up the knots of > horror, silently raving, and go on > crashing into empty ends not > completions, not rondures the fullness > has come into and spent itself from > > I stand on the stump > of a child, whether myself > or my little brother who died, and > yell as far as I can, I cannot leave this place, for > for me it is the dearest and the worst, > it is life nearest to life which is > life lost: it is my place where > I must stand and fail, > calling attention with tears > to the branches not lofting > boughs into space, to the barren > air that holds the world that was my world > > though the incompletions > (& completions) burn out > standing in the flash high-burn > momentary structure of ash, still it > is a picture-book, letter-perfect > Easter morning: I have been for a > walk: the wind is tranquil: the brook > works without flashing in an abundant > tranquility: the birds are lively with > voice: I saw something I had > never seen before: two great birds, > maybe eagles, blackwinged, whitenecked > and -headed, came from the south oaring > the great wings steadily; they went > directly over me, high up, and kept on > due north: but then one bird, > the one behind, veered a little to the > left and the other bird kept on seeming > not to notice for a minute: the first > began to circle as if looking for > something, coasting, resting its wings > on the down side of some of the circles: > the other bird came back and they both > circled, looking perhaps for a draft; > they turned a few more times, possibly > rising--at least, clearly resting< > then flew on falling into distance till > they broke across the local bush and > trees: it was a sight of bountiful > majesty and integrity: the having > patterns and routes, breaking > from them to explore other patterns or > better ways to routes, and then the > return: a dance sacred as the sap in > the trees, permanent in its descriptions > as the ripples round the brook's > ripplestone: fresh as this particular > flood of burn breaking across us now > from the sun. > > --A. R. Ammons > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Sun Apr 11 14:18:27 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:18:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? In-Reply-To: <410-22004401117615534@M2W096.mail2web.com> Message-ID: on 4/11/04 12:06 PM, terzarima at earthlink.net at terzarima at earthlink.net wrote: > > Gah, has anyone heard anything about this? > > The book is > about to close on the nation???s oldest all-poetry store. Very sad news: many happy hours in my youth (and many small paychecks) were spent at the Grolier. Too bad they weren't able to enter the online era with an adequate web-based service--probably the only way such speciality stores will ever survive these days. I doubt that any bookshop aside from the big chains can survive these days just on foot traffic; and I suspect that even the chains must sell a lot of best-sellers, not to mention candy, cards, tote bags, posters, calendars, music, mugs, & coffee, in order to clear enough profit to subsidize the purely literary stuff. I do wish the Grolier had set up a better web presence, and sooner. As of right now, the best independent bookstore I know of for finding poetry is probably Powell's, which has a great web site. http://www.powells.com/ The article mentions that there is only one other all-poetry shop left in this country. Does anyone know what it is? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 Sun Apr 11 16:06:36 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:06:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? Message-ID: <98.8135d87.2daaff4c@cs.com> http://www.brazosbookstore.com/ Brazos Books is a great store but not strictly poetry. How about ordering from them online the next time you're shopping? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From terzarima Sun Apr 11 17:30:37 2004 From: terzarima (terzarima at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:30:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? Message-ID: <18690-220044011213037374@M2W039.mail2web.com> on 4/11/04 12:06 PM, terzarima at earthlink.net at terzarima at earthlink.net wrote: > > Gah, has anyone heard anything about this? > > The book is > about to close on the nation???s oldest all-poetry store. Very sad news: many happy hours in my youth (and many small paychecks) were spent at the Grolier. I agree. Back in '89 I was one of the runner ups for the Grolier competition, and going to Harvard Square felt like a pilgrimage. I would regularly forgo paying my phone bill to buy books there. I feel the same about Avenue Victor Hugo, one of my favorite downtown bookshops which is also about to close. :-( Too bad they weren't able to enter the online era with an adequate web-based service--probably the only way such speciality stores will ever survive these days. I am very perplexed that they never did this actually, because as a webdeveloper I know that there are cost effective ways of accomplishing this, and I think it would have made a difference. Take a local specialty and make it global. That would require change though, and a dramatic change in marketing, as well as an expertise that maybe the owners were not prepared to handle. It is such a shame because I do believe that niche market or no, there must be a way to make a bookstore like this work. My hope is that if Louisa finds the right buyer, maybe they will be able to infuse some cash into a new marketing strategy. I just hope it stays open. Suzanne -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From terzarima Sun Apr 11 17:36:24 2004 From: terzarima (terzarima at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:36:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? Message-ID: <410-220044011213624466@M2W085.mail2web.com> http://www.brazosbookstore.com/ Brazos Books is a great store but not strictly poetry. How about ordering from them online the next time you're shopping? Yeah, you could always order them online I guess, but I think one of the purposes the Grolier served was in providing sort of a center, a community for poets. A place to drop in to see what the latest is, etc. I wasn't always crazy about how they organized the shelves (with separate shelves for "Black Poetry", "Irish Poetry", "Cowboy Poetry", "Language Poetry" etc., which always struck me as marginalizing) but it still served a purpose. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a sort of online equivalent of this? A web-based poetry bookstore and "hangout"? Linked up wioth poetry blogs and discussion groups, and maybe some sort of interface for readers to recommend books? Just a thought. Suzanne -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wjbat Sun Apr 11 18:52:31 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 18:52:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? In-Reply-To: <18690-220044011213037374@M2W039.mail2web.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, April 11, 2004, at 05:30 PM, terzarima at earthlink.net wrote: > Too bad they weren't able to enter the online era > with an adequate web-based service--probably the only way such > speciality > stores will ever survive these days. Unfortunately, it was never really "they." Louisa has had lots of employees and helpers, but it's always been her show. And her health has been bad for many years. I rarely get to Cambridge these days, but I hate to think of it without the Grolier. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu -------------------------- enstasy From adead_poet Sun Apr 11 22:26:15 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:26:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404120218.i3C2ItXE013939@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From elemenope Sun Apr 11 11:37:30 2004 From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 23:37:30 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience: Crow In Spring Message-ID: CROW IN SPRING Briefcase in hand, I open the door and enter the front yard. Birds so small they are warbling dots of brown fluff bounding, darting a flood of sun on denuded lawn across the lot from garages in Good Friday cold. Stopped. There, happy, giant, my great crow has returned. Licorice feathered. One cacaphonic announcement, and it's off to the rooftop. Up, the garage door is lifting like an eye from sleep. That was yesterday. Just a second ago, out back, his ancient caw. Marching the garden where Amanita fell under broken pine, lawn ornament bold, my biggest boy, everyone's playmate, head pecking, on the lookout for life. Richard Dillon ELEMENOPE Productions >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Words & Experience (Graham, David) > 2. Hello... (C. E. Chaffin) > 3. Re: Hello... (Bob Grumman) > 4. Re: Words & Experience (Bob Grumman) > 5. Re: Words & Experience (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > 6. Words & Experience (Graham, David) > 7. Re: Words & Experience (Bob Grumman) > 8. Re: American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards (Renee Ashley) > 9. Re: American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards (Michael Snider) > 10. Re: American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Graham, David" >To: "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'" >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:44:16 -0500 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, >> the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the >> caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, >> as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong >> sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the >> undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with >> phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, >> glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. > > >The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. > >============================================ >David Graham >Department of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >============================================ > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "C. E. Chaffin" >To: >Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 20:04:03 -0600 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello... >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C41C12.4F09FC20 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Fellow Literati, > >Just walked into the debate about teaching poetry at some college level = >between Bob, Louie and Jeff. > >Spirited stuff! > >Just joined this listserv. Don't even remember how it came to me; think = >I got an invitation from our e-zine's inbox. > >As for the discussion, I do not feel Thomas Jefferson intended our = >public school system, which now ascends to graduate levels beyond his = >imagining, to be a compulsory punishment. > >To teach a non-appreciative captive audience seems a punishment in = >itself. > >Still loved the positive anecdotes the one teacher related regarding his = >influence, esp. on the lawyer who went literary. > >And the cummings recital from the desktop and the coffee cup from the = >trash inspiring the Wordsworth recitation! > >Understood the opposite frustration as well. > >Lucky for me, I don't have to make my living teaching poetry, do however = >tutor individually one-on-one online. My students seek me out and pay = >me, so I have the advantage of a selection error--they come for poetry! > >Look forward to participating here. Liked the hopeful poem at the = >bottom by our new Pulitzer Winner, couldn't believe someone so = >straightforward and spiritually optimistic, ala Jane Kenyon, could win a = >Pulitzer. Gotta check out his larger work, as this poem made my jaded = >editor's eyes pause for a little dose of humility and innocence before = >accepting it for what it was. =20 > >All for now, > >C. E. Chaffin > >p.s. Anyone with a yen to read about Eliot's most depressing poem, = >here's a link to my take on the "The Hollow Men," just out: > >http://www.melicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm > > >------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C41C12.4F09FC20 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Fellow Literati,
>
 
>
Just walked into the debate about teaching poetry at some college = >level=20 >between Bob, Louie and Jeff.
>
 
>
Spirited stuff!
>
 
>
Just joined this listserv.  Don't even remember how it came to = >me;=20 >think I got an invitation from our e-zine's inbox.
>
 
>
As for the discussion, I do not feel Thomas Jefferson intended our = >public=20 >school system, which now ascends to graduate levels beyond his = >imagining, to be=20 >a compulsory punishment.
>
 
>
To teach a non-appreciative captive audience seems a punishment in=20 >itself.
>
 
>
Still loved the positive anecdotes the one teacher related = >regarding his=20 >influence, esp. on the lawyer who went literary.
>
 
>
And the cummings recital from the desktop and the coffee cup from = >the trash=20 >inspiring the Wordsworth recitation!
>
 
>
Understood the opposite frustration as well.
>
 
>
Lucky for me, I don't have to make my living teaching poetry, do = >however=20 >tutor individually one-on-one online.  My students seek me out and = >pay me,=20 >so I have the advantage of a selection error--they come for = >poetry!
>
 
>
Look forward to participating here.  Liked the hopeful poem at = >the=20 >bottom by our new Pulitzer Winner, couldn't believe someone so = >straightforward=20 >and spiritually optimistic, ala Jane Kenyon, could win a Pulitzer.  = >Gotta=20 >check out his larger work, as this poem made my jaded editor's eyes = >pause for a=20 >little dose of humility and innocence before accepting it for what it = >was. =20 >
>
 
>
All for now,
>
 
>
C. E. Chaffin
>
 
>
p.s.  Anyone with a yen to read about Eliot's most depressing = >poem,=20 >here's a link to my take on the "The Hollow Men," just out: >
 
>
href=3D"http://www.melicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm">http://www.m= >elicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm
>
 
>
 
> >------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C41C12.4F09FC20-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hello... >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:02:53 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_01A0_01C41CA0.A36951B0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Welcome CE. > >Not to compete with you, but if any of your students want post-grad = >tutoring in pluraesthetic and infraverbal poetry for whatever you're = >charging, send them to me! I'll give you a referral fee equal to ten = >percent what I make off each! I'm serious in that I would accept such = >students, unserious in that I can't imagine anyone requesting me as a = >tutor. I've done articles for standard references on my subject, = >though, so that makes me an expert, right? > >--Bob G. > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: C. E. Chaffin=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:04 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello... > > > Fellow Literati, > > Just walked into the debate about teaching poetry at some college = >level between Bob, Louie and Jeff. > > Spirited stuff! > > Just joined this listserv. Don't even remember how it came to me; = >think I got an invitation from our e-zine's inbox. > > As for the discussion, I do not feel Thomas Jefferson intended our = >public school system, which now ascends to graduate levels beyond his = >imagining, to be a compulsory punishment. > > To teach a non-appreciative captive audience seems a punishment in = >itself. > > Still loved the positive anecdotes the one teacher related regarding = >his influence, esp. on the lawyer who went literary. > > And the cummings recital from the desktop and the coffee cup from the = >trash inspiring the Wordsworth recitation! > > Understood the opposite frustration as well. > > Lucky for me, I don't have to make my living teaching poetry, do = >however tutor individually one-on-one online. My students seek me out = >and pay me, so I have the advantage of a selection error--they come for = >poetry! > > Look forward to participating here. Liked the hopeful poem at the = >bottom by our new Pulitzer Winner, couldn't believe someone so = >straightforward and spiritually optimistic, ala Jane Kenyon, could win a = >Pulitzer. Gotta check out his larger work, as this poem made my jaded = >editor's eyes pause for a little dose of humility and innocence before = >accepting it for what it was. =20 > > All for now, > > C. E. Chaffin > > p.s. Anyone with a yen to read about Eliot's most depressing poem, = >here's a link to my take on the "The Hollow Men," just out:=20 > > http://www.melicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm > > >------=_NextPart_000_01A0_01C41CA0.A36951B0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Welcome CE.
>
 
>
Not to compete with you, but if any of = >your=20 >students want post-grad tutoring in pluraesthetic and infraverbal poetry = >for=20 >whatever you're charging, send them to me!  I'll give you a = >referral fee=20 >equal to ten percent what I make off each!  I'm serious in that I = >would=20 >accept such students, unserious in that I can't imagine anyone = >requesting me as=20 >a tutor.  I've done articles for standard references on my subject, = >though,=20 >so that makes me an expert, right?
>
 
>
--Bob G.
>
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = >black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:eliotpoe at hotmail.com">C. E.=20 > Chaffin > >
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 = >10:04=20 > PM
>
Subject: [New-Poetry] = >Hello...
>

>
Fellow Literati,
>
 
>
Just walked into the debate about teaching poetry at some college = >level=20 > between Bob, Louie and Jeff.
>
 
>
Spirited stuff!
>
 
>
Just joined this listserv.  Don't even remember how it came = >to me;=20 > think I got an invitation from our e-zine's inbox.
>
 
>
As for the discussion, I do not feel Thomas Jefferson intended = >our public=20 > school system, which now ascends to graduate levels beyond his = >imagining, to=20 > be a compulsory punishment.
>
 
>
To teach a non-appreciative captive audience seems a punishment = >in=20 > itself.
>
 
>
Still loved the positive anecdotes the one teacher related = >regarding his=20 > influence, esp. on the lawyer who went literary.
>
 
>
And the cummings recital from the desktop and the coffee cup from = >the=20 > trash inspiring the Wordsworth recitation!
>
 
>
Understood the opposite frustration as well.
>
 
>
Lucky for me, I don't have to make my living teaching poetry, do = >however=20 > tutor individually one-on-one online.  My students seek me out = >and pay=20 > me, so I have the advantage of a selection error--they come for = >poetry!
>
 
>
Look forward to participating here.  Liked the hopeful poem = >at the=20 > bottom by our new Pulitzer Winner, couldn't believe someone so = >straightforward=20 > and spiritually optimistic, ala Jane Kenyon, could win a = >Pulitzer.  Gotta=20 > check out his larger work, as this poem made my jaded editor's eyes = >pause for=20 > a little dose of humility and innocence before accepting it for what = >it=20 > was. 
>
 
>
All for now,
>
 
>
C. E. Chaffin
>
 
>
p.s.  Anyone with a yen to read about Eliot's most = >depressing poem,=20 > here's a link to my take on the "The Hollow Men," just out:=20 >
 
>
= >href=3D"http://www.melicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm">http://www.m= >elicreview.com/current/chaffinessay.htm
>
 
>
 
> >------=_NextPart_000_01A0_01C41CA0.A36951B0-- > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:06:38 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, >> > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the >> > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, >> > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong >> > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the >> > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with >> > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, >> > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. >> >> >> The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. > > > I agree except that as a taxonomist, I would have to say it is simply >poetic prose (even outside my own taxonomy). Even taken out of context. >Unless lineated, in which case it becomes, for me, a poem. > >--Bob G. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:47:00 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_1d8.1e72b715.2da59894_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 4/7/2004 12:07:51 PM Central Daylight Time, >bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: >> >But the ominous thing in the crow's flight, >> >>the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the >> >>caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, >> >>as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong > > >>sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the > > >>undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with > > >>phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, >> >>glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. >> > >> > >> >The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. >Where's it from? A non-poetic source, I assume. > >--part1_1d8.1e72b715.2da59894_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/7/2004 12:07:5= >1 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">>But the ominous thing in th= >e crow's flight,
>>>the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the= >
>>>caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke,<= >BR> >>>as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlo= >ng
>>>sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the
>>>undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with> >>>phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant,<= >BR> >>>glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat.
>>
>>
>>The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think.
<= >BR> >Where's it from?  A non-poetic source, I assume. > >--part1_1d8.1e72b715.2da59894_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Graham, David" >To: "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'" >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:22:26 -0500 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >> Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2004 12:47 PM >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience >> >> I >> >The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. >> >> >> Where's it from? A non-poetic source, I assume. >> >> Ted Hughes in "Words & Experience", from_Strong Words_ >> > (a collection of essays & statements of poetics by Modernist >> > & late 20th C poets)... >> > "...how are we to say what we see in a crow's flight? Is it not enough >> > to say the crow flies purposefully, or heavily, or rowingly, or >> whatever. >> > There are no words to capture the infinite depth of crowiness in the >> > crow's flight. All we can do is use a word as an indicator, or a whole >> > bunch of words as a directive. But the ominous thing in the crow's >> flight, >> > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the >> > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, >> > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong >> > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the >> > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with >> > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, >> > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. And a bookload >> > of such descriptions is immediately rubbish when you look up and >> > see the crow flying." >> >> >============================================ >David Graham >Department of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >============================================ > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:26:21 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >See what winning a prize does to the mind? > >--Bob G., who won't have to worry about THAT particular brand of >mind-blottery > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Graham, David" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:22 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience > > >> > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2004 12:47 PM >> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Words & Experience >> > >> > I >> > >The above is a prose poem of considerable beauty, I think. >> > >> > >> > Where's it from? A non-poetic source, I assume. >> > >> > Ted Hughes in "Words & Experience", from_Strong Words_ >> > > (a collection of essays & statements of poetics by Modernist >> > > & late 20th C poets)... >> > > "...how are we to say what we see in a crow's flight? Is it not enough >> > > to say the crow flies purposefully, or heavily, or rowingly, or >> > whatever. >> > > There are no words to capture the infinite depth of crowiness in the >> > > crow's flight. All we can do is use a word as an indicator, or a whole >> > > bunch of words as a directive. But the ominous thing in the crow's >> > flight, >> > > the bare-faced, bandit thing, the tattered beggarly gipsy thing, the >> > > caressing and shaping yet slightly clumsy gesture of the downstoke, >> > > as if the wings were both too heavy and too powerful, and the headlong >> > > sort of merriment, the macabre pantomime ghoulishness and the >> > > undertaker sleekness -- you could go on for a very long time with >> > > phrases of that sort and still have completely missed your instant, >> > > glimpse knowledge of the world of the crow's wingbeat. And a bookload >> > > of such descriptions is immediately rubbish when you look up and >> > > see the crow flying." >> > >> > >> ============================================ >> David Graham >> Department of English, Ripon College >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> My Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> >> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >> ============================================ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >From: "Renee Ashley" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:42:24 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0248_01C41CB6.EC3D1C30 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Re: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters AwardsAnd major = >clapping from north Jersey as well! Wonderful! Congratulations to all! >Renee >------=_NextPart_000_0248_01C41CB6.EC3D1C30 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > >Re: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters = >Awards >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
And major clapping = >from north=20 >Jersey as well! Wonderful! Congratulations to all!
>
size=3D2>Renee
> >------=_NextPart_000_0248_01C41CB6.EC3D1C30-- > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >From: Michael Snider >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:05:53 -0400 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Is there a web page for the academy? Any online announcement besides >Sam's email? > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 10 >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:08:40 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Academy of Arts and Letters Awards >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_15b.320a0918.2da5d5e8_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 4/7/2004 5:06:42 PM Central Daylight Time, >mandolin at mac.com writes: >> Is there a web page for the academy? Any online announcement besides >> Sam's email? >> >There isn't one. That was, however, a press release. > >--part1_15b.320a0918.2da5d5e8_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/7/2004 5= >:06:42 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: R=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" >SIZE=3D2=20= >PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Is there a  web  page= > for the academy? Any online announcement besides
>Sam's email?
>

>style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20= >#ffffff" SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG= >=3D"0">There isn't one.  That was, however, a press release.ML> > >--part1_15b.320a0918.2da5d5e8_boundary-- > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From ron.silliman Mon Apr 12 07:25:51 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 07:25:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog -- he's ba-ack... Message-ID: <000001c42080$ed4548a0$6501a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: How to gauge influence? Originality & sources in Kevin Davies Lateral Argument & Jim Behrle's City Point The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Magazine, book, or anthology? The between-ness of the One Shot publication. Writing as giving: A family tradition Trobar Clus: A poetics of total engagement Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind: Charlie Kaufman & the George Romero Poetry Conference Harryette Mullen, Lew Welch & Jim Behrle: Poetry & marketing (from Althusser to Baudrillard) "Leaving the Atocha Station" - the elegy Meaning & market dynamics Brenda Iijima: Around Sea http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ * * * My latest book Woundwood is available from Cuneiform Press: http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html From JforJames Mon Apr 12 12:30:56 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:30:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? Message-ID: <24.5376141f.2dac1e40@aol.com> In a message dated 4/11/04 5:31:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, terzarima at earthlink.net writes: > > My hope is that if Louisa finds the right buyer, maybe they will be able to > infuse some cash into a new marketing strategy. I just hope it stays open. > It would be too bad to see it go lights out. Wouldn't it be nice if Harvard could help out with a subsidy, since the store is almost a part of its history at this point. (Of course Harvard does support that nice Woodbury Poetry Room in the Lamont Library.) I wonder if Harvard doesn't in fact own that building she's in? The store is really tiny...I think people building McMansions these days have bigger walk-in closets. Parking is tough on the street in front and near her store too. Finnegan From JforJames Mon Apr 12 12:36:42 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:36:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Soul Mountain Message-ID: <46.4ba8b67b.2dac1f9a@aol.com> FYI: Marilyn Nelson has founded a retreat for emerging African-American poets.... The University of Connecticut's Creative Writing Program invites you to a benefit poetry reading with State Poet Laureate Marilyn Nelson April 26, 2004 7:30 pm The Meeting Room, Litchfield County Extension Service Building 855 University Drive University of Connecticut at Torrington V. Penelope Pelizzon will open for Marilyn Nelson. Pelizzon's first book, Nostos, won the Hollis Summers Prize and the 2001 Norma Farber Award from the Poetry Society of America. Marilyn Nelson, Connecticut's poet laureate, is the author of six poetry collections including Magnificat, The Homeplace, and The Fields of Praise: New and Selected Poems. Her most recent book, Carver: A Life in Poems, was a Newbery Honor Book and a National Book Award finalist. This reading is a voluntary benefit for Soul Mountain, a new Connecticut writers' retreat for emerging African-American poets, founded this year by Marilyn Nelson. There is no admission charge, though visitors may make donations that will be used to fund fellowships for Soul Mountain participants. There will be a reception and book signing with the poets after the reading. The Creative Writing Program is part of UConn's English Department. Together with the department at large, we host many literary readings by nationally- and internationally-acclaimed authors. For more information about our events, please see our website at www.longriver.uconn.edu or phone the English Department at (860) 486-2169. From anastasios Mon Apr 12 12:56:24 2004 From: anastasios (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:56:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? In-Reply-To: <24.5376141f.2dac1e40@aol.com> References: <24.5376141f.2dac1e40@aol.com> Message-ID: <1081788984.407aca38e30dc@www.lostbaklava.com> It's adjacent to the Harvard Book Store. I bet Summers makes is a store room or something. To be honest, the quality of the stock has gone down and it's hard to find anything in there anymore. The place is a mess. I have been patronizing Louisa for nearly two decades, and there was a time that I coulnd't go to Red Square without stopping by Louisa's joint. She hated me when I was younger because I would just go in there and read. I had bookmarks in lots of books. When I finally started buying books, she began to like me. A year ago, I had a friend (a poet) over at Mount Auburn Hospital. I called Louisa and asked her if she'd call a courier service and courier a book that I wanted to buy from her. I would have paid for the entire thing. She told me that she wouldn't do it and that I would call Wordsworth, which I did. I appreciated her honesty, but ... Last I visited the shop (I don't live in Boston anymore), I couldn't even get the shelves because boxes were covering the floor. There wasn't much floor to begin with. It sad to see it go. I think if someone with some vitality and charisma bought it from her, they'd do quite well for themselves. It's Louisa who needs to retire at this point. Quoting JforJames at aol.com: > In a message dated 4/11/04 5:31:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > terzarima at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > My hope is that if Louisa finds the right buyer, maybe they will be able > to > > infuse some cash into a new marketing strategy. I just hope it stays > open. > > > It would be too bad to see it go lights out. Wouldn't it be nice if Harvard > could > help out with a subsidy, since the store is almost a part of its history at > this point. > (Of course Harvard does support that nice Woodbury Poetry Room in > the Lamont Library.) I wonder if Harvard doesn't in fact own that building > she's in? The store is really tiny...I think people building McMansions > these days have bigger walk-in closets. Parking is tough on the street > in front and near her store too. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Mon Apr 12 15:39:14 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 15:39:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? References: <24.5376141f.2dac1e40@aol.com> Message-ID: <014401c420c5$d7edf980$2defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > It would be too bad to see it go lights out. Wouldn't it be nice if Harvard > could > help out with a subsidy, since the store is almost a part of its history at > this point. > (Of course Harvard does support that nice Woodbury Poetry Room in > the Lamont Library.) I wonder if Harvard doesn't in fact own that building > she's in? The store is really tiny...I think people building McMansions > these days have bigger walk-in closets. Parking is tough on the street > in front and near her store too. > Finnegan It is definitely very Harvard. --Bob G. From JforJames Mon Apr 12 17:28:21 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:28:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers Message-ID: <195.28423999.2dac63f5@aol.com> http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/entertainment/8387542.htm "It's been a marvelous career," says the tall, bespectacled Reece in his thoughtful manner, speaking from his small, two-bedroom condo. It's a space that befits a Brooks Brothers poet, decorated with an oversized fashion ad and a wall's worth of framed letters from friends and admirers, including such prestigious poets as James Merrill and Henri Cole. From bobgrumman Mon Apr 12 17:52:03 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:52:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers References: <195.28423999.2dac63f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <01de01c420d8$65a7ff70$2defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Yeah, Mr. Sour Grapes couldn't let this one by. Here's how to be published in the New Yorker and win poetry prizes: write books of poems that are "exceptionally engrossing and moving," and "have a large, resonating presence in your mind long after you've put the book down." (NYer poetry editor Quinn.) Also be sure "There's nothing fake in (your) whole book." (Louise Gluck) --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 Mon Apr 12 20:06:37 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:06:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers Message-ID: <1eb.1da853c9.2dac890d@cs.com> In a message dated 4/12/2004 4:29:41 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/entertainment/8387542.htm Spencer Reece Has achieved inner peece As a fitter and hemmer-- And not for George Zemmer! Claire A. Hughes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil Sun Apr 11 16:56:01 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:56:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? References: <98.8135d87.2daaff4c@cs.com> Message-ID: <4079B0E1.FF6E319A@ix.netcom.com> And as far as online bookstores go, try Alphaville Books through + Storefronts + MD, USA The store is poet owned and honed. We still have the tail end of an extensive run of Wesleyan University Poetry titles in hardback, mostly firsts.CP From alphavil Mon Apr 12 07:56:47 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 07:56:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog -- he's ba-ack... References: <000001c42080$ed4548a0$6501a8c0@Dell> Message-ID: <407A83FE.36F59AEA@ix.netcom.com> This is spam, J. Can I at least post Assassinated Press announcements. If not, why the double standard? CP Ron wrote: > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > RECENT TOPICS: > > How to gauge influence? > Originality & sources in > Kevin Davies Lateral Argument > & Jim Behrle's City Point > > The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar > > Magazine, book, or anthology? > The between-ness of the One Shot publication. > > Writing as giving: > A family tradition > > Trobar Clus: > A poetics of total engagement > > Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind: > Charlie Kaufman > & the George Romero Poetry Conference > > Harryette Mullen, Lew Welch & Jim Behrle: > Poetry & marketing > (from Althusser to Baudrillard) > > "Leaving the Atocha Station" - the elegy > Meaning & market dynamics > > Brenda Iijima: > Around Sea > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > * * * > > My latest book Woundwood > is available from Cuneiform Press: > http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Mon Apr 12 20:48:17 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:48:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers Message-ID: <7c.44aa6f19.2dac92d1@aol.com> In a message dated 4/12/2004 8:07:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > Spencer Reece > Has achieved inner peece > As a fitter and hemmer-- > And not for George Zemmer! > > Claire A. Hughes Sam, I wasn't in stitches over this one But seriously, as stand-up comics are wont to say, who was your competition for that recent prize? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Mon Apr 12 20:57:02 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:57:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers In-Reply-To: <1eb.1da853c9.2dac890d@cs.com> Message-ID: Spencer Reece's Brooks Brothers poem is online, if you're curious: http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/content/?030616fi_fiction6 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames Mon Apr 12 21:15:22 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:15:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers Message-ID: <192.282d8917.2dac992a@aol.com> In a message dated 4/12/2004 8:58:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Spencer Reece's Brooks Brothers poem is online, if you're curious: > > http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/content/?030616fi_fiction6 David, is this the state of poetry that the URL states "fiction" twice? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Apr 12 21:23:56 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:23:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? Message-ID: <45.94b6012.2dac9b2c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/12/2004 12:57:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, anastasios at lostbaklava.com writes: > I think if someone with some vitality and > charisma bought it from her, they'd do quite well for themselves. It's > Louisa > who needs to retire at this point I don't want to speak ill of the nearly bankrupt, but some people should never have tried their hands at shopkeeping, actual or virtual. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Apr 12 21:35:01 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:35:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Message-ID: <1c5.1702c04a.2dac9dc5@aol.com> Here is a riff on the blues by Anthony Walton, from the new Everyman's Library Pocket Poets anthology BLUES POEMS, edited by Kevin Young.*************************************** The Encyclopedia of Rhythm and Blues Passion killings, plane crashes, overdoses, accidental and intended; Suicides, bus wrecks, women; the inability to choose between one woman and another; heroin, booze, the inability to choose between pleasure and the Lord; men, prison, the white man, the white man who owns the record company; all of this delineated as melismatic celebration of disaster and the gut-wrenching agony of joy, the anger and hush of the naked soul alone, sighing and shouting intensely hyperbolic declarations of erotic heroism--anywhere, baby, anyhow, skidding out of control and into the next- to-the-last chorus and over the bridge and key change, popping the balloon of a heart inflated with humiliation and pain and replacing it with gutteral and shrieking glissandos --I was once lost and now am found-- as if a singer were an angel commissioned in the highest holy orders, as if a song had wings extended into flight and feathers of shelter-- as if true love and its fraternal twin, the blues, possessed equally the powers of devotion and redemption, as if the one true heaven were standing around the corner, laughing drunk, and locked with lust and abandon into the ever-loving arms of the mortal world. ***************************************From BLUES POEMS edited by Kevin Young. Copyright 2003. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** Related links: About BLUES POEMS: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jdyP0DXKYc0Wa0T4D0At View the complete Pocket Poets library: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jdyP0DXKYc0Wa0T4E0Au Discuss "The Encyclopedia of Rhythm and Blues" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://www.aaknopf.com/poetry/forum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Mon Apr 12 21:38:19 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:38:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] imagination into action by means of words. Message-ID: <84.269ec446.2dac9e8b@aol.com> If you consider how poetry and the plastic arts always take an individual for their theme and present it with the most careful exactitude in all its uniqueness, down to the most insignificant characteristics; and if you then look at the sciences, which operate by means of concepts each of which represents countless individuals by once and for all defining and designating what is peculiar to them as a species; - if you consider this, the practice of art is likely to seem to you paltry, petty and indeed almost childish. The nature of art, however, is such that in art one single case stands for thousands, in that what art has in view with that careful and particular delineation of the individual is the revelation of the Idea of the genus to which it belongs; so that, e.g., an occurrence, a scene from human life depicted correctly and completely, that is to say with an exact delineation of the individuals involved in it, leads to a clear and profound knowledge of the Idea of humanity itself perceived from this or that aspect. For as the botanist plucks one single flower from the endless abundance of the plant world and then analyses it so as to demonstrate to us the nature of the plant in general, so the poet selects a single scene, indeed sometimes no more than a single mood or sensation, from the endless confusion of ceaselessly active human life, in order to show us what the life and nature of man is. This is why we see the greatest spirits - Shakespeare and Goethe, Raphael and Rembrandt - not disdaining to delineate single individuals, and not even notable ones, and to make them visible before us, and doing so with the greatest exactitude and the most earnest application, in their whole particularity down to the very smallest details. For the particular and the individual can be grasped only when it is made visible - which is why I have defined poetry as the art of setting the imagination into action by means of words. --Arthur Schopenhauer "Aphorisms: On Aesthetics" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Mon Apr 12 21:50:17 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:50:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Elegy for an Enemy - Stephen Vincent Benet In-Reply-To: <192.282d8917.2dac992a@aol.com> References: <192.282d8917.2dac992a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040412204727.U70509@kpaul.spinweb.net> Elegy for an Enemy by Stephen Vincent Benet (For G. H.) Say, does that stupid earth Where they have laid her, Bind still her sullen mirth, Mirth which betrayed her? Do the lush grasses hold, Greenly and glad, That brittle-perfect gold She alone had? Smugly the common crew, Over their knitting, Mourn her -- as butchers do Sheep-throats they're slitting! She was my enemy, One of the best of them. Would she come back to me, God damn the rest of them! Damn them, the flabby, fat, Sleek little darlings! We gave them tit for tat, Snarlings for snarlings! Squashy pomposities, Shocked at our violence, Let not one tactful hiss Break her new silence! Maids of antiquity, Look well upon her; Ice was her chastity, Spotless her honor. Neighbors, with breasts of snow, Dames of much virtue, How she could flame and glow! Lord, how she hurt you! She was a woman, and Tender -- at times! (Delicate was her hand) One of her crimes! Hair that strayed elfinly, Lips red as haws, You, with the ready lie, Was that the cause? Rest you, my enemy, Slain without fault, Life smacks but tastelessly Lacking your salt! Stuck in a bog whence naught May catapult me, Come from the grave, long-sought, Come and insult me! WE knew that sugared stuff Poisoned the other; Rough as the wind is rough, Sister and brother! Breathing the ether clear Others forlorn have found -- Oh, for that peace austere She and her scorn have found! From terzarima Mon Apr 12 22:14:37 2004 From: terzarima (terzarima at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:14:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? In-Reply-To: <45.94b6012.2dac9b2c@aol.com> References: <45.94b6012.2dac9b2c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040412221437.28f281ed.terzarima@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:23:56 EDT JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/12/2004 12:57:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, > anastasios at lostbaklava.com writes: > > > I think if someone with some vitality and > > charisma bought it from her, they'd do quite well for themselves. It's > > Louisa > > who needs to retire at this point > > I don't want to speak ill of the nearly bankrupt, > but some people should never have tried their > hands at shopkeeping, actual or virtual. > Finnegan > Those are my feelings as well. I feel terrible for the bookstore, but I really cannot agree that it is a victim of the big chains. Louisa is a VERY difficult person to do business with, and has made a number of business and management decisions which quite frankly baffle me. I don't want to say more because it wuold just sound snarky. It really is a shame. My hope, as one who feels kind of sentimental about that place, is that someone who knows hoiw to run a bookstore just buys it up. From Rsgwynn1 Mon Apr 12 22:15:24 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:15:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers Message-ID: <2b.54a66865.2daca73c@cs.com> In a message dated 4/12/2004 7:49:32 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > Sam, I wasn't in stitches over this one > But seriously, as stand-up comics are > wont to say, who was your competition > for that recent prize? > Finnegan I don't really know how it works. I think it was just a nomination sort of thing, not a competition. Previous winners: Robert Conquest, X. J. Kennedy, Gavin Ewart, Wendy Cope, Henry Taylor, Turner Cassity, Thomas M. Disch. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 13 06:55:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:55:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? References: <98.8135d87.2daaff4c@cs.com> <4079B0E1.FF6E319A@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <006001c42145$cef577b0$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > And as far as online bookstores go, try Alphaville Books > through > > + Storefronts + MD, USA > > The store is poet owned and honed. We still have the tail > end of an extensive run of Wesleyan University Poetry titles > in hardback, mostly firsts.CP When I read about Wesleyan U poetry titles, my thoughts were sarcastic, and I thought maybe I should advertise that I have a stack of old American Poetry Reviews for sale. Then I thought maybe I could actually get rid of them. More details for anyone interested in actually offering me money for them. (I give away good stuff; I charge people for being retrograde. . . . although APR does have an occasional superior poem; it's just not where you go for state of the art.) --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Apr 13 06:56:56 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:56:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers References: <7c.44aa6f19.2dac92d1@aol.com> Message-ID: <006801c42146$0b5ae4b0$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Spencer Reece Has achieved inner peece As a fitter and hemmer-- And not for George Zemmer! Claire A. Hughes Sam, I wasn't in stitches over this one But seriously, as stand-up comics are wont to say, who was your competition for that recent prize? Finnegan I had similar thoughts. But maybe I would have liked it more if I knew who George Zemmer was. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 13 07:33:38 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:33:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers References: <7c.44aa6f19.2dac92d1@aol.com> <006801c42146$0b5ae4b0$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002601c4214b$2a5bf570$eb032cd9@MyPC> From: Bob Grumman SNIP << Sam, I wasn't in stitches over this one But seriously, as stand-up comics are wont to say, who was your competition for that recent prize? Finnegan I had similar thoughts. But maybe I would have liked it more if I knew who George Zemmer was. --Bob G. >> Bob, it's possibly a mistake (or a distortion for the sake of the rhyme) of George Zimmer [sic], of whom google quoth: "George Zimmer Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, The Men`s Wearhouse, Inc." Robin George Zimmer: My Biggest Mistake George Zimmer, founder and CEO of the Men's Wearhouse, discusses the mistakes he made during a failed negotiation. From: Inc magazine | June 2000 GEORGE ZIMMER Founder and CEO of the Men's Wearhouse, a $1.2-billion retailer of men's apparel based in Houston "It has been said that "pride goeth before a fall." In my case, it went before a failed negotiation. Four or five years ago, I started talking to Martin Prosserman, the founder of a chain called Moores the Suit People, which seemed like a great acquisition for us. With more than 100 stores, it was the largest retailer of men's tailored clothing in Canada. It also had a profitable factory in Montreal, which would have offered us the opportunity to become vertically integrated. Moores looked like a great fit." ... and on and interminably on. R. From bobgrumman Tue Apr 13 07:54:08 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 07:54:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers References: <7c.44aa6f19.2dac92d1@aol.com> <006801c42146$0b5ae4b0$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002601c4214b$2a5bf570$eb032cd9@MyPC> Message-ID: <010501c4214e$0948d3f0$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks, Robin. Oh, the gaps in my education! I knowed about Brooks Bros., though. . . . --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers > From: Bob Grumman > > SNIP > > << > Sam, I wasn't in stitches over this one > But seriously, as stand-up comics are > wont to say, who was your competition > for that recent prize? > Finnegan > > I had similar thoughts. But maybe I would have liked it more if I knew who > George Zemmer was. > > --Bob G. > >> > > Bob, it's possibly a mistake (or a distortion for the sake of the rhyme) of > George Zimmer [sic], of whom google quoth: > > "George Zimmer Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, The Men`s Wearhouse, > Inc." > > Robin > > > George Zimmer: My Biggest Mistake > George Zimmer, founder and CEO of the Men's Wearhouse, discusses the > mistakes he made during a failed negotiation. > > From: Inc magazine | June 2000 > GEORGE ZIMMER > Founder and CEO of the Men's Wearhouse, a $1.2-billion retailer of men's > apparel based in Houston > > "It has been said that "pride goeth before a fall." In my case, it went > before a failed negotiation. Four or five years ago, I started talking to > Martin Prosserman, the founder of a chain called Moores the Suit People, > which seemed like a great acquisition for us. With more than 100 stores, it > was the largest retailer of men's tailored clothing in Canada. It also had a > profitable factory in Montreal, which would have offered us the opportunity > to become vertically integrated. Moores looked like a great fit." > > ... and on and interminably on. > > R. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 13 09:03:08 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:03:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers Message-ID: <7e.4bcfc96b.2dad3f0c@cs.com> In a message dated 4/13/2004 5:57:42 AM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Sam, I wasn't in stitches over this one > But seriously, as stand-up comics are > wont to say, who was your competition > for that recent prize? > Finnegan > > I had similar thoughts. But maybe I would have liked it more if I knew who > George Zemmer was. > > --Bob G. > George Zimmer used to be the ceo of Mens' Wearhouse and still does commercials for that low-cost chain. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwilsnac Tue Apr 13 11:03:55 2004 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:03:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers In-Reply-To: References: <1eb.1da853c9.2dac890d@cs.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040413094227.01038d90@medicine.nodak.edu> At 07:57 PM 4/12/2004 -0500, David Graham wrote: >Spencer Reece's Brooks Brothers poem is online, if you're curious: > >http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/content/?030616fi_fiction6 An soft ahem from the bleacher section: An opinion: The poem exemplifies what seems to be a frequent blessing/curse of narrative poetry in recent days: Buried within the story is a line or two that insists on being remembered and reused and pondered. For me, in the case of Reece's poem, it is the well-split line in the middle that says complete acceptance is always bittersweet. My problem with the poem (and many other recent narratives) is that the whole story as told is not worth the line worth saving. The story itself is not intense enough, or concentrated enough, or startling enough to be worth absorbing it as a whole. Compare it with a few recent narratives such as Alberto Rios' "A Chance Meeting of Two Men," or B. H. Fairchild's "Body and Soul" poem about Mickey Mantle (that David posted a while back). Maybe the problem is with the New Yorker. Too often these days it seems to proclaim that culture is washed out, and that the best beauty we can produce should look pallid. Slumping back in my seat in the sixty-second row, Richard W. Wilsnack Department of Neuroscience University of North Dakota School of Medicine & Health Sciences Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From GrahamD Tue Apr 13 11:38:24 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:38:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Famous Seamus Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A294@ariel.ripon.edu> Happy birthday to Heaney. . . . Perch Perch on their water-perch hung in the clear Bann River Near the clay bank in alder-dapple and waver, Perch we called "grunts," little flood-slubs, runty and ready, I saw and I see in the river's glorified body That is passable through, but they're bluntly holding the pass, Under the water-roof, over the bottom, adoze, Guzzling the current, against it, all muscle and slur In the finland of perch, the fenland of alder, on air That is water, on carpets of Bann stream, on hold In the everything flows and steady go of the world. --Seamus Heaney. *Electric Light*, 2001 ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From marcus Tue Apr 13 11:47:19 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:47:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate of Brooks Brothers In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040413094227.01038d90@medicine.nodak.edu> References: Message-ID: <407BD347.32309.F58851@localhost> > At 07:57 PM 4/12/2004 -0500, David Graham wrote: > >Spencer Reece's Brooks Brothers poem is online, if you're curious: > >http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/content/?030616fi_fiction6 On 13 Apr 2004 at 10:03, Richard Wilsnack wrote: > An soft ahem from the bleacher section: An opinion: > The poem exemplifies what seems to be a frequent blessing/curse > of narrative poetry in recent days: > Buried within the story is a line or two that insists on being > remembered and reused and pondered. For me, in the case of > Reece's poem, it is the well-split line in the middle that says > complete acceptance is always > bittersweet. > My problem with the poem (and many other recent narratives) > is that the whole story as told is not worth the line worth saving. > The story itself is not intense enough, or concentrated enough, or > startling enough to be worth absorbing it as a whole.< Well, I don't know if I agree. I've long wondered why, for me, thoroughly non-academic, there are so many poem-about-poems poems and the teaching-problems poems and the teacher-student-problem poems and the illicit-love-of-pupils poems and the faculty-meeting poems and the lament-about-anti-intellectualism poems and such that seem to me to be both the meat of the academic poet's meal and so untasty. And your comment here about this poem suggests to me that it's because I'm not an academic that I don't engage as completely as the vast majority of poets in the US with the problems of academia and now you are finding yourself less than fully engaged by a poem about the problems of a non-academic. Now, where I agree with you, I think this poem is sort of flabby and verbose, and the attitude of the narrator toward his co-worker is not much like "complete acceptance", that's for sure, and that casts doubt for me on the validity of the narrator's insight about his co- worker's own "complete acceptance", though the line is well done. I find the poem a little flabby and lacking in narrative force, but I think that that's because it's just not very well written as a narrative, not because it's a story "not worth the line worth saving ... not intense enough, or concentrated enough, or startling enough to be worth absorbing it as a whole." I think there is a story there, one worth saving, one intents and startling enough -- but I agree with you that it's not concentrated enough -- as told. Marcus From marcus Tue Apr 13 11:59:33 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:59:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elegy for an Enemy - Stephen Vincent Benet In-Reply-To: <20040412204727.U70509@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <192.282d8917.2dac992a@aol.com> Message-ID: <407BD625.1285.100BA5A@localhost> On 12 Apr 2004 at 20:50, kpaul mallasch wrote: > Elegy for an Enemy > by Stephen Vincent Benet > (For G. H.) Elegant and insightful, but Benet buried his best line, and the best line to end on, in my view. This should be the last, not the second, stanza: > Smugly the common crew, > Over their knitting, > Mourn her -- as butchers do > Sheep-throats they're slitting! > She was my enemy, > One of the best of them. > Would she come back to me, > God damn the rest of them! From GrahamD Tue Apr 13 12:33:13 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:33:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A295@ariel.ripon.edu> > there are so many poem-about-poems poems and > the teaching-problems poems and the teacher-student-problem poems and > the illicit-love-of-pupils poems and the faculty-meeting poems and > the lament-about-anti-intellectualism poems and such that seem to me > to be both the meat of the academic poet's meal and so untasty. --------- Well, here's one of mine to chew on: Faculty Meeting The hissing of old radiators warms the horrid silence. Someone has inadvertently told the truth in this overheated room. Ancient chalkdust gives the air a stale glow and everyone looks down as if praying. Very sorry, I didn't mean it, blurts the Professor. Everyone breathes more freely. On the snow outside, long winter shadows deepen and reach toward the horizon. I withdraw the remark, he says, let us move on to New Business. I've not written a great many teaching poems compared to other subjects, but since I've been toiling in classrooms for many years, the few I've written have after a while begun to add up to a little pile. Probably true of other teaching poets, I imagine. Priests often write religious poems, lovers write love poems, etc. Whether poems about teaching are the *meat* of our academic meal, well, I could quibble . . . . More to the point: teaching is a boundlessly interesting enterprise, important from many angles; and there's no reason why it can't be made as interesting in a poem as love, faith, death, and the other inevitables. In any case, the above is my first and possibly last faculty meeting poem. Some subjects just *aren't* boundlessly interesting, one could say, but since Dante isn't around anymore, somebody's got to sketch this particular circle of hell, don't you think? ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From paul.lake Tue Apr 13 13:10:54 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:10:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A295@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: on 4/13/04 11:33 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote: >> there are so many poem-about-poems poems and >> the teaching-problems poems and the teacher-student-problem poems and >> the illicit-love-of-pupils poems and the faculty-meeting poems and >> the lament-about-anti-intellectualism poems and such that seem to me >> to be both the meat of the academic poet's meal and so untasty. > --------- > > Well, here's one of mine to chew on: > > > Faculty Meeting > > > The hissing of old radiators > warms the horrid silence. > Someone has inadvertently > told the truth > in this overheated room. > Ancient chalkdust > gives the air a stale glow > and everyone looks down > as if praying. > > Very sorry, I didn't > mean it, blurts the Professor. > Everyone breathes > more freely. On the snow > outside, long winter shadows > deepen and reach > toward the horizon. > I withdraw the remark, > he says, let us move on > to New Business. > > > I've not written a great many teaching poems compared to other subjects, but > since I've been toiling in classrooms for many years, the few I've written > have after a while begun to add up to a little pile. Probably true of other > teaching poets, I imagine. Priests often write religious poems, lovers > write love poems, etc. > > Whether poems about teaching are the *meat* of our academic meal, well, I > could quibble . . . . > More to the point: teaching is a boundlessly interesting enterprise, > important from many angles; and there's no reason why it can't be made as > interesting in a poem as love, faith, death, and the other inevitables. > > In any case, the above is my first and possibly last faculty meeting poem. > Some subjects just *aren't* boundlessly interesting, one could say, but > since Dante isn't around anymore, somebody's got to sketch this particular > circle of hell, don't you think? > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > I remember a poem by Michael McFee, in the Hudson Review, I think, or maybe Poetry, about being in the men's room in the stall when his department chairman came in and the various feelings involved. Sounded kind of like Dante, as I recall. Paul --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From cherrylaura Tue Apr 13 13:51:05 2004 From: cherrylaura (Laura Cherry) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:51:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? Message-ID: I've never felt welcome or even remotely comfortable at the Grolier. It's very difficult to find anything, and very awkward, in various ways, to browse. It's like trying to shop in a 20-foot-high walk-in closet with someone glaring at you from one end. I wanted to like and support this store when I moved to Boston ten years ago, but I've never been able to. Laura Cherry >From: terzarima at earthlink.net >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grolier Booksop closing?? >Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:14:37 -0400 > >On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:23:56 EDT >JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/12/2004 12:57:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > anastasios at lostbaklava.com writes: > > > > > I think if someone with some vitality and > > > charisma bought it from her, they'd do quite well for themselves. It's > > > Louisa > > > who needs to retire at this point > > > > I don't want to speak ill of the nearly bankrupt, > > but some people should never have tried their > > hands at shopkeeping, actual or virtual. > > Finnegan > > > >Those are my feelings as well. I feel terrible for the bookstore, but I >really cannot agree that it is a victim of the big chains. Louisa is a VERY >difficult person to do business with, and has made a number of business and >management decisions which quite frankly baffle me. I don't want to say >more because it wuold just sound snarky. It really is a shame. My hope, as >one who feels kind of sentimental about that place, is that someone who >knows hoiw to run a bookstore just buys it up. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ From marcus Tue Apr 13 13:56:17 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:56:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A295@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <407BF181.3799.16B9B56@localhost> On 13 Apr 2004 at 11:33, Graham, David wrote: > Faculty Meeting Yes, you've posted that before and I've admired it before; I've read it aloud to no small amount of knowing laughter. Thanks for posting it again; it's a good one. > More to the point: teaching is a boundlessly interesting enterprise, > important from many angles; and there's no reason why it can't be made > as interesting in a poem as love, faith, death, and the other > inevitables.< No doubt it's more interesting for people who are engaged in it than for people who are not, too -- which is all I'm trying to say, really. The people who laugh loudest at your Faculty Meeting poem are the professional teachers, of course. And I'm not trying to say that poems about teaching can't be made as interesting as a poem about death or about selling clothes. I'm merely saying that a poem about selling clothes is not one that instantly engages the professional teacher/poet in the same way as a poem about teaching. Marcus From eliotpoe Tue Apr 13 15:11:37 2004 From: eliotpoe (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:11:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2089 - 11 msgs References: <200404131532.i3DFW2XE028786@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: That Heaney is reading with Jorie Graham at the Dublin Writer's workshop, after which she shall supervise the learning modules, strikes me as? Elliptical? Unbelievable? Perhaps it doesn't matter that Graham doesn't belong on the same stage. But poetry makes for strange bedfellows. Happy Birthday, Seamus! --CE From tadrichards Tue Apr 13 18:41:31 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:41:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A295@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <009c01c421a8$78b1d840$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> This one comes from an assignment I give my students - to eavesdrop a line in iambic pentameter, then write an iambic pentameter poem using the line. Right after I had given it, I went to a faculty meeting, and in order to try to look interested, started taking down what people said in iambic pentameter. MINUTES OF THE LAST MEETING It wouldn't interfere with what we do; I couldn't really poll the entire group. Very, very briefly, here's the plan Elect the chairs of two committees first (Able to run for these positions first) Who'll want to lead the faculty towards greatness. Within the AAC or SAC, At least two people -- one is not enough - The faculty at large will vote for chairs, The AAC, I find, now having done it. The AAC, last Monday, voted no -Selected by the faculty at large- And they pick someone who they think can lead. Maybe the better thing would be to keep. We have to somehow pull it all together. Did everyone get a chance to sign the sheet? There are seven searches underway From adead_poet Tue Apr 13 22:19:44 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:19:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404140212.i3E2C8XE002370@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames Tue Apr 13 17:29:25 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:29:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Scientists: Some Experiments Message-ID: <62.3cdd50e5.2dadb5b5@aol.com> Poets and Scientists: Some Experiments Janet Phillips surveys recent projects (As printed in Winter 2003-4 issue of Poetry News) "Poetry is a part of my life," says paleontologist Richard Fortey, as he sits, surrounded by papers and specimen cabinets, in a room in the basement of the Natural History Museum. How many contemporary scientists could say that? Well, an encouraging number of them draw on poetry in their writing (Richard Dawkins is an example, along with Fortey himself), and perhaps that number will grow, due to two projects that have brought about almost thirty collaborations between poets and scientists. One, led by poet Robert Crawford (supported by the Wellcome Trust's Sciarts fund and organised through the University of St Andrews) involved nine poet-scientist pairings. Another - an anthology to celebrate the life of environmental scientist Rachel Carson, edited by John Burnside and Maurice Riordan - involved seventeen collaborations. It's easy to see what a poet might gain from shadowing a scientist: new material, insights, vocabulary. But for the scientists, is this anything more than an interesting way to spend lunch? To begin with, collaborating scientists are frank about the dichotomies that comparisons between poetry and science throw up. Rona Ramsay, a biochemist who collaborated with Robert Crawford, says: "A poet wants to evoke multiple responses and different meanings with one word, but for a scientist, a word has to have a very precise meaning". Richard Fortey agrees that "the analytical function of being a scientist is absolutely different", and adds, "the one thing that's unforgivable in science is to make things up". But this is not to say that the imagination has no role to play in science. Peter Forbes, a poetry editor and science writer, says: "Scientists today need to be more imaginative, spotting connections, say, between physics and biology, that only lateral or poetic thinking can produce". This is what Richard Fortey describes as the scientist's "imaginative breakthrough", which will be formalised through experiment and research. "The creative process is probably similar to that of a poet, but to convert it into scientific discourse you have to adopt a very formal language", he says. But such formal language can be impenetrable to a general reader. So it's no surprise that the most obvious benefit to scientists from these collaborations is that they open up a different way of communicating. "My research seeks to explain how the three-dimensional shapes of small molecules fit together with large enzymes for recognition and affinity", says Rona Ramsay. "In the end, [Robert Crawford's] phrase 'deft inter-molecular embrace' sums up what it's all about". Indeed, having someone else write about your work might reveal something new. "A poet takes from the material things that you simply wouldn't have noticed", says Richard Fortey, "or they make new connections beyond the world of the scientist". Peter Forbes points to Lucretius's poem, De Rerum Natura, as an example of a poet having a true scientific insight: "There was no real science then, only speculation. But Lucretius was percipient enough to pick the only winner among the rival hypotheses: the atomic theory. His reasoning is so elegant that the poem is still inspiring today". In fact, the inspirational effect of poetry was something that Warren S Warren, Professor of Chemistry at Princeton, decided to analyse for his collaboration with Paul Muldoon. Warren made two brain scans of a volunteer reading parts of a Muldoon poem, interspersed with the dry text of administrative regulations. The scans show that when the volunteer was reading the poem, the prefrontal cortex of the brain revealed greater engagement then when the regulations were read. "This activation in the prefrontal cortex is no surprise: it is the most evolved part of the brain and a centre of both critical and emotional response", writes Warren, in Princeton Alumni Weekly. But, he adds: "We are not yet able to probe truly deep questions (brain sensors will not replace literary critics for some time)?" Of course they won't, and surely what these collaborations emphasise is literature's ability to convey scientific thought. Maurice Riordan and John Burnside would argue that Rachel Carson's work on pesticides, Silent Spring, illustrates this. Their anthology celebrates "that wonderful marriage in one pen of lyricism and observation". Wild Reckoning is published by the Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation in April Robert Crawford is editing a book on poetry and science for OUP. From JforJames Tue Apr 13 17:36:05 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 17:36:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] if you're near enuf to central Connecticut... Message-ID: <1a3.22d9ef03.2dadb745@aol.com> TALK UP THE WALK - A POETRY CELEBRATION To benefit 'The Wallace Stevens Walk' April 18, St. Joseph College in West Hartford CT, 1-4PM $5 Admission / Donation Featuring over 50 Poets reading on 2 Stages... Poets from Willi, Common Ground Poets, Writers Asylum of Collinsville, Still River Writers, Brickwalk Poets, Ye Olde Font Shoppe, Wood Thrush Poets, River's Edge Poets, Connecticut Poetry Society, Random Meeting House Poets, and many other poets from the area (plus some Open Mike time). Besides the readings... ?????? Good Quality Used Poetry Books For Sale - Most $1 ?????? Reception following the program; cash bar. ?????? Come early & stay for the whole show. From adead_poet Tue Apr 13 22:19:44 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:19:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Sample Message-ID: <200404140212.i3E2C8XE002369@wiz.cath.vt.edu> I have corrected your document. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: word_doc_new-poetry.zip Type: application/octet-stream Size: 29834 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grahamd Tue Apr 13 23:01:15 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:01:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A295@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: And here's a classic oldie. April Inventory The green catalpa tree has turned All white; the cherry blooms once more. In one whole year I haven't learned A blessed thing they pay you for. The blossoms snow down in my hair; The trees and I will soon be bare. The trees have more than I to spare. The sleek, expensive girls I teach, Younger and pinker every year, Bloom gradually out of reach. The pear tree lets its petals drop Like dandruff on a tabletop. The girls have grown so young by now I have to nudge myself to stare. This year they smile and mind me how My teeth are falling with my hair. In thirty years I may not get Younger, shrewder, or out of debt. The tenth time, just a year ago, I made myself a little list Of all the things I'd ought to know, Then told my parents, analyst, And everyone who's trusted me I'd be substantial, presently. I haven't read one book about A book or memorized one plot. Or found a mind I did not doubt. I learned one date. And then forgot. And one by one the solid scholars Get the degrees, the jobs, the dollars. And smile above their starchy collars. I taught my classes Whitehead's notions; One lovely girl, a song of Mahler's. Lacking a source-book or promotions, I showed one child the colors of A luna moth and how to love. I taught myself to name my name, To bark back, loosen love and crying; To ease my woman so she came, To ease an old man who was dying. I have not learned how often I Can win, can love, but choose to die. I have not learned there is a lie Love shall be blonder, slimmer, younger; That my equivocating eye Loves only by my body's hunger; That I have forces true to feel, Or that the lovely world is real. While scholars speak authority And wear their ulcers on their sleeves, My eyes in spectacles shall see These trees procure and spend their leaves. There is a value underneath The gold and silver in my teeth. Though trees turn bare and girls turn wives, We shall afford our costly seasons; There is a gentleness survives That will outspeak and has its reasons. There is a loveliness exists, Preserves us, not for specialists. From tadrichards Tue Apr 13 23:47:24 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 23:47:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems References: Message-ID: <002401c421d3$3532e340$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I love that poem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 11:01 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems And here's a classic oldie. April Inventory The green catalpa tree has turned All white; the cherry blooms once more. In one whole year I haven't learned A blessed thing they pay you for. The blossoms snow down in my hair; The trees and I will soon be bare. The trees have more than I to spare. The sleek, expensive girls I teach, Younger and pinker every year, Bloom gradually out of reach. The pear tree lets its petals drop Like dandruff on a tabletop. The girls have grown so young by now I have to nudge myself to stare. This year they smile and mind me how My teeth are falling with my hair. In thirty years I may not get Younger, shrewder, or out of debt. The tenth time, just a year ago, I made myself a little list Of all the things I'd ought to know, Then told my parents, analyst, And everyone who's trusted me I'd be substantial, presently. I haven't read one book about A book or memorized one plot. Or found a mind I did not doubt. I learned one date. And then forgot. And one by one the solid scholars Get the degrees, the jobs, the dollars. And smile above their starchy collars. I taught my classes Whitehead's notions; One lovely girl, a song of Mahler's. Lacking a source-book or promotions, I showed one child the colors of A luna moth and how to love. I taught myself to name my name, To bark back, loosen love and crying; To ease my woman so she came, To ease an old man who was dying. I have not learned how often I Can win, can love, but choose to die. I have not learned there is a lie Love shall be blonder, slimmer, younger; That my equivocating eye Loves only by my body's hunger; That I have forces true to feel, Or that the lovely world is real. While scholars speak authority And wear their ulcers on their sleeves, My eyes in spectacles shall see These trees procure and spend their leaves. There is a value underneath The gold and silver in my teeth. Though trees turn bare and girls turn wives, We shall afford our costly seasons; There is a gentleness survives That will outspeak and has its reasons. There is a loveliness exists, Preserves us, not for specialists. From marcus Wed Apr 14 08:02:20 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:02:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <002401c421d3$3532e340$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <407CF00C.17658.2A311D@localhost> > From: "David Graham" > And here's a classic oldie. > April Inventory W. D. Snodgrass On 13 Apr 2004 at 23:47, The Old Mole wrote: > I love that poem. Sure, and here are two more golden oldies on the same sort of subject. But once again, in response to a poem about selling clothes there is, among this academic group, a spate of poems about academe -- and not about selling clothes or making auto parts. The Ghost in the Martini Anthony Hecht Over the rim of the glass Containing a good martini with a twist I eye her bosom and consider a pass, Certain we?d not be missed In the general hubbub. Her lips, which I forgot to say, are superb, Never stop babbling once (Aye, there?s the rub) But who would want to curb Such delicious, artful flattery? It seems she adores my work, the distinguished grey Of my hair. I muse on the salt and battery Of the sexual clinch, and say Something terse and gruff About the marked disparity in our ages. She looks like twenty-three, though eager enough. As for the famous wages Of sin, she can?t have attained Even to union scale, though you never can tell. Her waist is slender and suggestively chained, And things are going well. The martini does its job, God bless it, seeping down to the dark old id. (?Is there no cradle, Sir, you would not rob?? Says ego, but the lid Is off. The word is Strike While the iron?s hot.) And no, ingenuous and gay, She is asking me about what I was like At twenty (Twenty, eh?). You wouldn?t have liked me then, I answer, looking carefully into her eyes. I was shy, withdrawn, awkward, one of those men That girls seemed to despise, Moody and self-obsessed, Unhappy, defiant, with guilty dreams galore, Full of ill-natured pride, an unconfessed Snob and a thorough bore. Her smile is meant to convey How changed or modest I am, I can?t tell which, When I suddenly hear someone close to me say, ?You lousy son-of-a-bitch!? A young man?s voice, by the sound, Coming, it seems from the twist in the martini. ?You arrogant, elderly letch, you broken-down Brother of Apeneck Sweeney! Thought I was buried for good Under six thick feet of mindless self-regard? Dance on my grave, would you, you galliard stud, Silenus in leotard? Well, summon me you did, And I come unwillingly, like Samuel?s ghost. ?All things shall be revealed that have been hid.? There?s something for you to toast! You only got where you are By standing upon my ectoplasmic shoulders, And wherever that is may not be so high or far In the eyes of some beholders. Take, for example, me. I have sat alone in the dark, accomplishing little, And worth no more to myself, in pride and fee, Than a cup of luke-warm spittle. But honest about it, withal ? (?Withal,? forsooth!) ?Please not to interrupt. And the lovelies went by, ?the long and the short and the tall,? Hankered for, but untupped. Bloody monastic it was. A neurotic mixture of self-denial and fear; The verse halting, the cataleptic pause, No sensible pain, no tear, But an interior drip As from an ulcer, where, in the humid deep Center of myself, I would scratch and grip The wet walls of the keep, Or lie on my back and smell From paul.lake Wed Apr 14 10:44:55 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:44:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2089 - 11 msgs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/13/04 2:11 PM, C. E. Chaffin at eliotpoe at hotmail.com wrote: > That Heaney is reading with Jorie Graham at the Dublin Writer's workshop, > after which she shall supervise the learning modules, strikes me as? > Elliptical? Unbelievable? > > Perhaps it doesn't matter that Graham doesn't belong on the same stage. But > poetry makes for strange bedfellows. > > Happy Birthday, Seamus! > > --CE > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > But Jorie Graham has a chair at Harvard and is thus an important poet. Plus she has very big hair, dresses in black, and has been written up in the New Yorker. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From GrahamD Wed Apr 14 10:58:11 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:58:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A29B@ariel.ripon.edu> Sure, and here are two more golden oldies on the same sort of subject. But once again, in response to a poem about selling clothes there is, among this academic group, a spate of poems about academe -- and not about selling clothes or making auto parts. _______ Marcus, if you'll cast your mind way back to yesterday I'm sure you'll recall that this "spate" of academic poems is more in response to *your* snarky comment about how untasty most academic poems are. (As if most love poems etc. weren't also untasty: this is a mighty tired line of argument, eh?) But you already knew that. And here I am rising to your silly bait. Thanks for the kind words on my academic poem, anyway. And hey, is a spate of poems like a gaggle of geese? When does a bunch or bouquet or flock or huddle become a spate? And if a spate o' poems is gathered in refutation, should we perhaps call it a spite? Let's puzzle that one out, shall we. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From jnewberry1974 Wed Apr 14 11:19:52 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A29B@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <20040414151952.63441.qmail@web11601.mail.yahoo.com> In my tiny south Georgia community, we have a hometown celebration every Christmas. The entire town comes out for the festival. Vendors line the streets selling everything from grilled PB and J sandwiches to bratwurst boiled in beer. Lots of folks sell crafts, too. Nonetheless, for the past two years we've been graced with the Flying Elvi, a group of Elvis impersonators who skydive into the center of town and put on an Elvis lip-synch show. It's actually pretty funny. The guys wear jump suits and have helmets that look like Elvis wigs. The town makes a big to-do out of it, and the Flying Elvi are usually featured on the local news. Have you seen *Honeymoon in Vegas*? Anyway, while walking downtown with my wife this past December, we deduced the only logical way to refer to a group of Elvis impersonators: A suede of Elvi. Jeff Newberry --- "Graham, David" wrote: > Sure, and here are two more golden oldies on the > same sort of > subject. But once again, in response to a poem about > selling clothes > there is, among this academic group, a spate of > poems about academe -- > and not about selling clothes or making auto parts. > _______ > > Marcus, if you'll cast your mind way back to > yesterday I'm sure you'll > recall that this "spate" of academic poems is more > in response to *your* > snarky comment about how untasty most academic poems > are. (As if most love > poems etc. weren't also untasty: this is a mighty > tired line of argument, > eh?) > > But you already knew that. And here I am rising to > your silly bait. > > Thanks for the kind words on my academic poem, > anyway. And hey, is a spate > of poems like a gaggle of geese? When does a bunch > or bouquet or flock or > huddle become a spate? And if a spate o' poems is > gathered in refutation, > should we perhaps call it a spite? Let's puzzle > that one out, shall we. . . > . > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From mandolin Wed Apr 14 11:35:42 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:35:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Software poetry from an ex-Academic Message-ID: <6384271A-8E29-11D8-9FC6-000393C29586@mac.com> I'm surprised I haven't written more poetry about coding: Walking Out Inside, the screen displays my buggy code and, in another window, all my errors-- a catalog as certain, and as wrong, as any list of sins that ever showed how this choice leads to that mistake, how terrors of consequence are natural as song and more likely since Second Law's a toad squatting across the path where we're the bearers of this thing after that for far too long. Out here around the parking lot, the sky is not so sure. I watch a beetle fly headlong into the just-bloomed Queen Anne's lace, which might be food, and nibble, just in case. From eliotpoe Wed Apr 14 11:18:50 2004 From: eliotpoe (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:18:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academics and Workshops as themes for poetry; question re: group digest snafus References: <200404140220.i3E2KPXE002552@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Poetry on Poetry and Listserv Glitches Err, I signed up for the digest, thinking it more convenient than individual messages. Now I get a huge block of SETI html and most messages repeated three times, including my own. Any suggestions? For this post I deleted all other posts save David Graham's, to which I refer, just to see if it would come through cleaner. I can't match the academic poems posted, closest I've come is to workshops, of which, in my life, I've attended one. First a poem by Billy Collins about a workshop: Workshop I might as well begin by saying how much I like the title. It gets me right away because I'm in a workshop now so immediately the poem has my attention, like the ancient mariner grabbing me by the sleeve. And I like the first couple of stanzas, the way they establish this mode of self-pointing that runs through the whole poem and tells us that words are food thrown down on the ground for other words to eat. I can almost taste the tail of the snake in its own mouth, if you know what I mean. But what I'm not sure about is the voice which sounds in places very casual, very blue jeans, but other times seems standoffish, professorial in the worst sense of the word like the poem is blowing pipe smoke in my face. But maybe that's just what it wants to do. What I did find engaging were the middle stanzas, especially the fourth one. I like the image of clouds flying like lozenges which gives me a very clear picture. And I really like how this drawbridge operator just appears out of the blue with his feet up on the iron railing and his fishing pole jigging -- I like jigging -- a hook in the slow industrial canal below. I love slow industrial canal below. All those l's. Maybe it's just me, but the next stanza is where I start to have a problem. I mean how can the evening bump into the stars? And what's an obbligato of snow? Also, I roam the decaffeinated streets. At that point I'm lost. I need help. The other thing that throws me off, and maybe this is just me, is the way the scene keeps shifting around. First, we're in this big aerodrome and the speaker is inspecting this row of dirigibles, which makes me think this could be a dream. Then he takes us into his garden, the part with the dahlias and the coiling hose, but then I am not sure where we're supposed to be. The rain and the mint green light, that makes it feel outdoors, but what about this wallpaper? Or is it a kind of indoor cemetery? There's something about death going on here. In fact, I start to wonder if what we have here is really two poems, or three, or four, or possibly none. But then there's that last stanza, my favorite. This is where the poem wins me back, especially the lines spoken in the voice of the mouse. I mean we've all seen these images in cartoons before, but I still love the details he uses when he describes where he lives. The perfect little arch of an entrance in the baseboard, the bed made out of a curled-back can, the spool of thread for a table. I start thinking about how hard the mouse had to work night after night collecting all these things while the people in the house were fast asleep, and that gives me a very strong feeling, a very powerful sense of something. But I don't know if anyone else was feeling that. Maybe that was just me. Maybe that's just the way I read it. Here's a couple along the same by yours truly, publication sites listed after. Vomiting Poetry (after Mark Strand) Half-digested chunks of metaphor fly against the wall and stick. Bile-soaked adjectives follow, modifying the putrid Rorschach. There is no surfeit like mine. I am vomiting poetry. The workshop leader is amazed: "Look-- an Auden fragment, a piece of Ginsberg, a particle of Bly- Do you have a weak stomach?" I am too sick to respond. I run from the classroom to the bathroom and wretch some more. Acid conceits spew into the toilet, ironies sink like turds. All is clich? now, all predigested. "Are you all right?" the janitor asks. "Fine," I say, flushing the evidence. "Do you ever read poetry?" I ask. "No," he says. "Why not?" "I couldn't get past the words." My stomach settles as I lean upon the solid handle of his broom. Published in _Brownflower_ http://members.aol.com/dream8673/ce1.htm Now one in a lighter vein (look out Mr. Gwynn): AT THE WORKSHOP "Poetry must be true," the teacher said, and so I had to resurrect the dead. Someone I killed to make a stanza better I must revive, or violate the letter of the law of poetic verisimilitude, where anything that isn't "real" is rude. So I warned Coleridge, "You albatross! Whatever isn't documentary is dross!" Who wept and took his Ancient Mariner Doll back to the Disney Store inside the mall where he met Keats, and shared the interdiction: "Whatever isn't real isn't poetry but fiction!" Keats erupted in a Doc Holiday cough and like a wounded gunslinger took off his pens and pencils, and began to wail, "I didn't really hear the nightingale." Whereupon Sir Edmund Spenser did a jig, proclaimed "The Faerie Queene was just a gig," while Shakespeare moaned, prey to the ultimate dread, his works reduced to: "my second-best bed." Poor Wordsworth looked like freshly cleavered sushi when he realized he could have married Luci and Byron laughed to think Don Juan bored by phony women when he could have scored! I overheard Rimbaud say to Moliere: "We should have written only what was there!" Whereupon Moliere retorted to Rimbaud, "Just 'cause it happened doesn't make it so." And William Carlos Williams, finally happy, congratulated Ginsberg like a pappy, who threw an orange at T.S. Eliot, and said, "You get these things at the supermarket." Eliot wiped the juice from his lapel and found the objective correlative for the smell: flowery, acidic yet tangy-sweet, he asked of Allen: "Why'd you throw a beet?" When Browning saw his poems consigned to "fiction," he sent his favorite duchess an eviction and wrote instead about a whore he'd known and how she could perpetuate a bone. After which Homer, strumming on his lute Declared The Odyssey all but destitute and Dante chimed in with this supplication: "Oh purge me with the scourge of false purgation." But my teacher was immune, dispassionate to every argument, however I fashioned it so I made a poem out of things that I'd collected and glued them to a board, so when directed to recite a poem I could point fingers, since Williams said, "No ideas but in thingers." _Melic Review_ http://www.melicreview.com/cgibin/lig_archive.cgi?iss03.cechaffin.01 As an editor, I don't like poems about poetry or the poetic process; the academic process seems more interesting, likely because I don't have to live there. I taught medicine, mainly to residents, didn't have to go to too many committee meetings as I was only a clinical professor. I love this quote, however, inexact from memory: "The reason academic battles are so vicious is because the stakes are so small." Its twin is worth repeating: "It's not enough in Hollywood to succeed, your best friend must also fail." As a reader in LA I despaired of the glad-handing, non-critical Hollywood attitude at poetry venues, and in workshops it's much the same, like the professor in the poem previously posted who had the bad taste to actually speak the truth. The emperor walks abroad in an Armani suit, forever. If you don't see it, keep your mouth shut. --C. E. Chaffin | > | > Well, here's one of mine to chew on: | > | > | > Faculty Meeting | > | > | > The hissing of old radiators | > warms the horrid silence. | > Someone has inadvertently | > told the truth | > in this overheated room. | > Ancient chalkdust | > gives the air a stale glow | > and everyone looks down | > as if praying. | > | > Very sorry, I didn't | > mean it, blurts the Professor. | > Everyone breathes | > more freely. On the snow | > outside, long winter shadows | > deepen and reach | > toward the horizon. | > I withdraw the remark, | > he says, let us move on | > to New Business. | > | > | > I've not written a great many teaching poems compared to other subjects, | but | > since I've been toiling in classrooms for many years, the few I've written | > have after a while begun to add up to a little pile. Probably true of | other | > teaching poets, I imagine. Priests often write religious poems, lovers | > write love poems, etc. | > | > Whether poems about teaching are the *meat* of our academic meal, well, I | > could quibble . . . . | > More to the point: teaching is a boundlessly interesting enterprise, | > important from many angles; and there's no reason why it can't be made as | > interesting in a poem as love, faith, death, and the other inevitables. | > | > In any case, the above is my first and possibly last faculty meeting poem. | > Some subjects just *aren't* boundlessly interesting, one could say, but | > since Dante isn't around anymore, somebody's got to sketch this particular | > circle of hell, don't you think? | > | > ============================================ | > David Graham | > Department of English, Ripon College | > grahamd at ripon.edu | > Home Page: | > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html | > My Poetry Library: | > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html | > | > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu | > ============================================ | > | > From tadrichards Wed Apr 14 13:15:58 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:15:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A29B@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <005701c42244$2859a2a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I believe in calling a spate a spate. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:58 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems > Sure, and here are two more golden oldies on the same sort of > subject. But once again, in response to a poem about selling clothes > there is, among this academic group, a spate of poems about academe -- > and not about selling clothes or making auto parts. > _______ > > Marcus, if you'll cast your mind way back to yesterday I'm sure you'll > recall that this "spate" of academic poems is more in response to *your* > snarky comment about how untasty most academic poems are. (As if most love > poems etc. weren't also untasty: this is a mighty tired line of argument, > eh?) > > But you already knew that. And here I am rising to your silly bait. > > Thanks for the kind words on my academic poem, anyway. And hey, is a spate > of poems like a gaggle of geese? When does a bunch or bouquet or flock or > huddle become a spate? And if a spate o' poems is gathered in refutation, > should we perhaps call it a spite? Let's puzzle that one out, shall we. . . > . > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wwmorgan Wed Apr 14 13:37:56 2004 From: wwmorgan (Bill Morgan) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:37:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A295@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040414123531.01c52ec0@mail.ilstu.edu> I can't seem to find John Ciardi's "On Flunking a Nice Boy Out of School" either here at home or on the Web; can somebody post it? I think it might make good material for discussion as part of this thread. Bill Morgan From bobgrumman Wed Apr 14 12:44:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:44:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #2089 - 11 msgs References: <200404131532.i3DFW2XE028786@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <01ba01c4223f$bb51f0d0$6eefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > That Heaney is reading with Jorie Graham at the Dublin Writer's workshop, > after which she shall supervise the learning modules, strikes me as? > Elliptical? Unbelievable? > > Perhaps it doesn't matter that Graham doesn't belong on the same stage. But > poetry makes for strange bedfellows. Only for those in the Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. --Bob G. From marcus Wed Apr 14 14:48:06 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:48:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A29B@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <407D4F26.18978.2E0994@localhost> On 14 Apr 2004 at 9:58, Graham, David wrote: > Marcus, if you'll cast your mind way back to yesterday I'm sure you'll > recall that this "spate" of academic poems is more in response to > *your* snarky comment about how untasty most academic poems are. < David, if you'll cast your own mind back, my comment was, essentially, that someone else's comment was snarky: that a poem about a non-academic way of making a living was not worth the one good line in it. I asked whether the reason that poem about a non- academic way of making a living was viewed by an academic as not being worthwhile wasn't a matter of it being about a non-academic way of making a living -- because the problem with the poem in question seemed to me to be that the poem itself was flabby and sort of long- winded and was even questionable in its attitude in the one line the academic praised. I was asking whether the real reason the academic dispraised the poem wasn't because it was, well, about non-academic issues since the actual technical and rhetorical problems with the poem went unremarked. And in response to my question the response was to post some poems about academia by academic poets! I find that amusing. You may not. But there it is. Marcus From marcus Wed Apr 14 15:02:18 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:02:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <005701c42244$2859a2a0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <407D527A.11511.3B09C3@localhost> > ... if you'll cast your mind way back to yesterday I'm sure > > you'll recall that this "spate" of academic poems ...<< On 14 Apr 2004 at 13:15, The Old Mole wrote: > I believe in calling a spate a spate. Instead of a fucking hatful? From marcus Wed Apr 14 15:08:57 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:08:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A suede of Elvi In-Reply-To: <20040414151952.63441.qmail@web11601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A29B@ariel.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <407D5409.21883.4120A5@localhost> A letch of academic poets? From wjbat Wed Apr 14 15:12:45 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:12:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <407D4F26.18978.2E0994@localhost> Message-ID: I was surprised to see so many academic poems posted. Enjoyed a couple--David & WS ,--but they'd slipped under my radar before. I think we have the usual blind-men-plus-elephant problem, Marcus; we're all reading different corners of the elephant and denouncing knees for not being hip-joints. I have no academic poems, despite years of teaching. My only job poem was written on a dare, from a poet who thought I couldn't write a poem about a synchrotron lab. Don't know if I proved him wrong, and I can't post it here because it's full of essential italics. But have you read Phil Levine, to light on the obvious? I don't mean to curtail your criticism. I'm just suggesting that none of us can keep up on any tusk or ear, let alone the whole elephant. Better to be specific than to launch jihads. Wendy On Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 02:48 PM, Marcus Bales wrote: > On 14 Apr 2004 at 9:58, Graham, David wrote: >> Marcus, if you'll cast your mind way back to yesterday I'm sure you'll >> recall that this "spate" of academic poems is more in response to >> *your* snarky comment about how untasty most academic poems are. < > > David, if you'll cast your own mind back, my comment was, > essentially, that someone else's comment was snarky: that a poem > about a non-academic way of making a living was not worth the one > good line in it. I asked whether the reason that poem about a non- > academic way of making a living was viewed by an academic as not > being worthwhile wasn't a matter of it being about a non-academic way > of making a living -- because the problem with the poem in question > seemed to me to be that the poem itself was flabby and sort of long- > winded and was even questionable in its attitude in the one line the > academic praised. I was asking whether the real reason the academic > dispraised the poem wasn't because it was, well, about non-academic > issues since the actual technical and rhetorical problems with the > poem went unremarked. > > And in response to my question the response was to post some poems > about academia by academic poets! > > I find that amusing. You may not. But there it is. > > Marcus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. --Rumi From alphavil Tue Apr 13 14:17:19 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:17:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] What' the... References: <407BF181.3799.16B9B56@localhost> Message-ID: <407C2EAF.B2FED8DF@ix.netcom.com> Knopf Forum Poem of the day? CP From marcus Wed Apr 14 15:20:03 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:20:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: References: <407D4F26.18978.2E0994@localhost> Message-ID: <407D56A3.18980.4B4AAB@localhost> On 14 Apr 2004 at 15:12, Wendy Battin wrote: > ... I think we have the usual blind-men-plus-elephant problem, ... > I don't mean to curtail your criticism. I'm just suggesting that none > of us can keep up on any tusk or ear, let alone the whole elephant. > Better to be specific than to launch jihads. < What jihad? I thought I was moderately specific; I addressed the poem and what I thought was wrong with it, as opposed to someone who said that the subject matter made the poem more or less not worthy of its best line. I said I thought that perhaps the problem might be that poems about selling clothes don't get the chance with academic poets that poems about teaching (or other academic matters) get from academic poets. That's a jihad? Marcus From alphavil Wed Apr 14 09:11:37 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:11:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Scientists: Some Experiments References: <62.3cdd50e5.2dadb5b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <407D3888.3F8AAC11@ix.netcom.com> Ah! Calouste Gulbenkian. Mr. Five Percent. The man who in collusion with the the French and British arbitrarily and crudely divided up the Middle East according to where promising oil reserves were thought to be and with a red grease pencil according to legend. Hence, Gulbenkian established the manner in which millions die today and the planet is destroyed while a poet and a scientist fiddle. CP From res173bl Wed Apr 14 12:29:44 2004 From: res173bl (res173bl at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:29:44 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advertising the Product, Over & Over & Over Message-ID: <20040414162944.HZVE2677.out005.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> wrote (Of "April Inventory," one of the truly great poems in the American Language) > I love that poem. Yeah, Old Mole, but it's not BURSTNORM, now is it? Jus' DOWDY IOWA or something, oh woe, nothing NEW, like not done in colored crayons or urine-stains, so what's the point? Barry (no smiley-face included) From Garrbearr Wed Apr 14 16:42:26 2004 From: Garrbearr (Garrbearr at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:42:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In his best dreams (poem) Message-ID: he thinks of her gentleness the kind which he never knew as a child making love seem younger than life always giving permission for every thought without explanation explaining everything with the words spoken in her eyes. -gary allen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rj Wed Apr 14 17:21:47 2004 From: rj (RJ McCaffery) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:21:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academics and Workshops as themes for poetry; question re: group digest snafus In-Reply-To: References: <200404140220.i3E2KPXE002552@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20040414211904.M2612@contemporarypoetry.com> C.E. - on behalf of the Brotherhood of Initialed Poets, let me publicly welcome you to the list. I mostly lurk here, but will lurk more now that you?re around. You'll probably see some old faces - Anthony Robinson posts here every so often. Carry on, Carry on. From tadrichards Wed Apr 14 21:06:44 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:06:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Advertising the Product, Over & Over & Over References: <20040414162944.HZVE2677.out005.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: <005701c42285$ed8f9020$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Point? Point? Was there supposed to be a point? Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 12:29 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Advertising the Product, Over & Over & Over > > wrote > (Of "April Inventory," one of the > truly great poems in the American Language) > > > I love that poem. > > Yeah, Old Mole, but it's not BURSTNORM, > now is it? Jus' DOWDY IOWA or something, > oh woe, nothing NEW, like not done in > colored crayons or urine-stains, so what's > the point? > > Barry (no smiley-face included) > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Wed Apr 14 21:37:28 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:37:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/14/04 2:12 PM, Wendy Battin at wjbat at conncoll.edu wrote: > I was surprised to see so many academic poems posted. Enjoyed a > couple--David & WS ,--but they'd slipped under my radar before. I > think we have the usual blind-men-plus-elephant problem, Marcus; we're > all reading different corners of the elephant and denouncing knees for > not being hip-joints. > > I have no academic poems, despite years of teaching. My only job poem > was written on a dare, from a poet who thought I couldn't write a poem > about a synchrotron lab. Don't know if I proved him wrong, and I can't > post it here because it's full of essential italics. But have you read > Phil Levine, to light on the obvious? > > I don't mean to curtail your criticism. I'm just suggesting that none > of us can keep up on any tusk or ear, let alone the whole elephant. > Better to be specific than to launch jihads. > > Wendy Agree with all the above. Here's one more thought, perhaps a little tangential (and for the record, I'm not talking Brooks Brothers vs. Blackboards, and never was). I'm not one of those po-mo absolutists who sniffs disdainfully at the very notion of "subject matter." In fact, among the many pleasures of poetry for me has always been gaining some sense of the texture of others' experiences, whether the poets chop wood or deal in chalk and blackboards. Or both. Still, it's a common and particularly wearisome reduction to evaluate poems first or chiefly according to their subjects, or worse, the occupations of their authors. As William Matthews indelibly noted in his wonderful essay "Dull Subjects," it's not the subject matter per se that makes a poem valuable; as he puts it, "dull subjects are those we have failed." Yet somehow Matthews did not manage to dislodge the notion that some subjects are inherently dull. Think how often you hear weary or scornful sighs over the Dead Grandmother Poem, the Poem About Poetry, the Confessional Poem, the Academic Poem, the Midlife Crisis poem, etc. As if subjects themselves were exhausted, rather than the poets in question. I think there are a number of reasons for the persistence of this particular chimera, the Dull Subject: one is that there is always a good supply of dull readers. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tadrichards Wed Apr 14 21:51:01 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:51:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects References: Message-ID: <000701c4228c$1b9ff490$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> And the leading Cowboy Poetry publications request poets not to bother submitting poems on "This Old Saddle," "This Old Bunkhouse," etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 9:37 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects > on 4/14/04 2:12 PM, Wendy Battin at wjbat at conncoll.edu wrote: > > > I was surprised to see so many academic poems posted. Enjoyed a > > couple--David & WS ,--but they'd slipped under my radar before. I > > think we have the usual blind-men-plus-elephant problem, Marcus; we're > > all reading different corners of the elephant and denouncing knees for > > not being hip-joints. > > > > I have no academic poems, despite years of teaching. My only job poem > > was written on a dare, from a poet who thought I couldn't write a poem > > about a synchrotron lab. Don't know if I proved him wrong, and I can't > > post it here because it's full of essential italics. But have you read > > Phil Levine, to light on the obvious? > > > > I don't mean to curtail your criticism. I'm just suggesting that none > > of us can keep up on any tusk or ear, let alone the whole elephant. > > Better to be specific than to launch jihads. > > > > Wendy > > Agree with all the above. Here's one more thought, perhaps a little > tangential (and for the record, I'm not talking Brooks Brothers vs. > Blackboards, and never was). > > I'm not one of those po-mo absolutists who sniffs disdainfully at the very > notion of "subject matter." In fact, among the many pleasures of poetry for > me has always been gaining some sense of the texture of others' experiences, > whether the poets chop wood or deal in chalk and blackboards. Or both. > > Still, it's a common and particularly wearisome reduction to evaluate poems > first or chiefly according to their subjects, or worse, the occupations of > their authors. As William Matthews indelibly noted in his wonderful essay > "Dull Subjects," it's not the subject matter per se that makes a poem > valuable; as he puts it, "dull subjects are those we have failed." > > Yet somehow Matthews did not manage to dislodge the notion that some > subjects are inherently dull. Think how often you hear weary or scornful > sighs over the Dead Grandmother Poem, the Poem About Poetry, the > Confessional Poem, the Academic Poem, the Midlife Crisis poem, etc. As if > subjects themselves were exhausted, rather than the poets in question. > > I think there are a number of reasons for the persistence of this particular > chimera, the Dull Subject: one is that there is always a good supply of > dull readers. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL Wed Apr 14 21:55:54 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:55:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects Message-ID: <123.2d52c48e.2daf45aa@aol.com> In a message dated 4/14/2004 9:52:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: And the leading Cowboy Poetry publications request poets not to bother submitting poems on "This Old Saddle," "This Old Bunkhouse," etc. Say it ain't so! How can we ever have enough This Old Saddle poems? [insert obvious pun here] JL, from the ol' bunkhouse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Wed Apr 14 22:02:24 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:02:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects In-Reply-To: <000701c4228c$1b9ff490$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: on 4/14/04 8:51 PM, The Old Mole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: > And the leading Cowboy Poetry publications request poets not to bother > submitting poems on "This Old Saddle," "This Old Bunkhouse," etc. Damn! Just when I was about to hit that lonesome trail. . . . Think they'll go for it if I re-title my submission "This Old Saddle Room"? And: is "My Dead Granny's Hoss" also out? Please advise. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From barry.spacks Wed Apr 14 22:22:35 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:22:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The point In-Reply-To: <200404150144.i3F1i2XE012225@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040414191252.00b38920@incoming.verizon.net> At 09:44 PM 4/14/2004 -0400, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: >Point? Point? Was there supposed to be a point? There was a point, indeed, but we're not supposed to explain our (grim) jokes. The point was, BTW, in support of Tad's love of the posted Snodgrass poem. I guess we're not all annoyed by the same kind of aggressive & self-serving activity elsewhere on the list. Be glad to back channel a footnote if anyone really somehow failed to note the target of my cross-hairs (smiley-face included). And apologies if I'm guilty of being too "slant" -- we all have our odd ways of trying to say what needs saying without starting the old grind complained of up yet again. gnomically, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Wed Apr 14 23:30:26 2004 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:30:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academics and Workshops as themes for poetry; question re: group digest snafus In-Reply-To: <20040414211904.M2612@contemporarypoetry.com> Message-ID: <00c501c4229a$05278300$20331c40@Emily> Yes, RJ, yes I do. This is sorta like going back home to visit and seeing a lot of familiar faces and not knowing what to say. Tony (thinking of becoming "A.W.") -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of RJ McCaffery Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 2:22 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Academics and Workshops as themes for poetry; question re: group digest snafus C.E. - on behalf of the Brotherhood of Initialed Poets, let me publicly welcome you to the list. I mostly lurk here, but will lurk more now that you're around. You'll probably see some old faces - Anthony Robinson posts here every so often. Carry on, Carry on. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Thu Apr 15 01:26:15 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 01:26:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects References: Message-ID: <005101c422aa$2defa000$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> I actually did submit a poem to the magazine that gives this particular stricture, and it was rejected on the grounds that it was too close to "This Old Bible." They did encourage me to send more, but this particular muse hasn't struck again. However, here it is: We were sittin' around the Nugget Bar, when an old man walked in one day And we could tell he was a miner, 'cause his eyes were far away. He said, "Boys, I've made my bundle, and the drinks are all on me, But I've a family in Kentucky, and two sons I aim to see. "There's gold there for the taking, but I've taken all I need, And boys, I go by the Good Book, and I won't take more for greed. My two sons'll be a-wond'rin' when's their daddy comin' home? And I'll be home afore Christmas, for I've been away too long. "Well, I'll give away my mining tools, for them I'll need no more, And old Jenny's packed 'em long enough, till her back is bruised and sore. I won't try for to sell 'em, for I've need of no more gold, And the desert's full of men who tried to pack too great a load." We went to divvy up the tools, and in his bags we found An old family Bible, of faded leather bound. We said "That desert's mighty long, old man, and your supplies look mighty lean, And if you left that old Bible out, you could pack a couple more canteens. But he only looked at us, and he slowly shook his head, And as he packed the rest of his gear in place, these few words he said: "Oh, the Lord made the water, and the Lord made the land, And I'll make it with His blessing, across the burning sand, But if my Lord seeks to find me, and comes lookin' for my soul He'll know me by His holy word, not just a bag of gold." Well, that was the last we saw him, though we talked about him some, But then his mule come into town alone, and we knew the desert had won. And when we finally found him, the Lord had took his soul, And the buzzards had picked his body clean, and the wind had took back the gold. But by his outstretched fingertips the old family Bible lay, And we picked it up to write in it the day he passed away. But as we did, from the very spot where that Good Book had lain There come bubblin' up spring water, just as fresh as mountain rain. We dug a well, and capped it, and built a cabin by its side, And we left the old family Bible lyin' on a shelf inside. And up above that shelf, in letters carved of pine, We left the old miner's final words, for travelers to find: "Oh, the Lord made the water, and the Lord made the land, And I'll make it with His blessing, across the burning sand, But if my Lord seeks to find me, and comes lookin' for my soul He'll know me by His holy word, not just a bag of gold." ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects > on 4/14/04 8:51 PM, The Old Mole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: > > > And the leading Cowboy Poetry publications request poets not to bother > > submitting poems on "This Old Saddle," "This Old Bunkhouse," etc. > > > Damn! Just when I was about to hit that lonesome trail. . . . Think they'll > go for it if I re-title my submission "This Old Saddle Room"? > > And: is "My Dead Granny's Hoss" also out? > > Please advise. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wjbat Thu Apr 15 05:37:45 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:37:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Academic poems In-Reply-To: <407D56A3.18980.4B4AAB@localhost> Message-ID: <8CE63652-8EC0-11D8-9D82-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Wednesday, April 14, 2004, at 03:20 PM, Marcus Bales wrote: > That's a jihad? No. Sorry, Marcus. I managed to muddle together two threads there. Please accept my apology. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu -------------------------- Now begins a torrent of words and a trickling of sense. Theocritus of Chios From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 07:03:50 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 07:03:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The point References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040414191252.00b38920@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <008f01c422d9$56deb4e0$47efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Point? Point? Was there supposed to be a point? There was a point, indeed, but we're not supposed to explain our (grim) jokes. The point was, BTW, in support of Tad's love of the posted Snodgrass poem. The point is that if one mentions a poem as being flawed because it does nothing new, that means one thinks poems should be written in urine. It also means that one must despise all similar poems, even those written years before such poems became practically obligatory for those wanting mainstream publication. I guess we're not all annoyed by the same kind of aggressive & self-serving activity elsewhere on the list Be glad to back channel a footnote if anyone really somehow failed to note the target of my cross-hairs (smiley-face included). And apologies if I'm guilty of being too "slant" -- we all have our odd ways of trying to say what needs saying without starting the old grind complained of up yet again. I take it as a compliment that you think everyone knows whom you're talking about, Barry. But your pleasantly non-aggressive and wholly unself-serving scorn for poetry that you don't like and for criticism of the kind of poetry you do like will, I fear, have little effect on my continuing, if mostly solitarily, to remind people that there are more than two or three schools of poetry. --Bob G. gnomically, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 06:51:23 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 06:51:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects References: Message-ID: <006f01c422d7$9a29cc00$47efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Yet somehow Matthews did not manage to dislodge the notion that some > subjects are inherently dull. Think how often you hear weary or scornful > sighs over the Dead Grandmother Poem, the Poem About Poetry, the > Confessional Poem, the Academic Poem, the Midlife Crisis poem, etc. As if > subjects themselves were exhausted, rather than the poets in question. > > I think there are a number of reasons for the persistence of this particular > chimera, the Dull Subject: one is that there is always a good supply of > dull readers. A larger one is that so many poets are incapable of adventurousness. So their use of the subject matter in fashion tends to make sensitive readers assume, sometimes unfairly but most of the time accurately, that they will be as uninventive in their choice of form, diction, imagery and poetic technique as they are in their choice of subject matter. A nearly as important reason for scorn of the kind of poems David mentions is that there are so many poems that are NOTHING BUT their subject matter, plus their poets' absolutely predictable sensitive insights. When one hears, for example, that some Iowa Workshop poet has written a poem about his dead grandmother, we really don't have to learn anything more about his poem to be confident that it won't prove exciting reading for anyone but the Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. Finally, no matter how good a new poem about some currently overdone subject is, there has to be a time when ANY poem on that subject is going to bore one. It IS possible to overdo something. Same with overdone forms and techniques. Rhyme didn't finally lose out to free verse (albeit not necessarily forever) because there was something wrong with it, but (in good part) because it was over-used and people understandably tired of it. My favorite subject matter, by the way, is poetry. An in-progress sequence in which I use "poetry" as the dividend in long division examples and everything from "words" to "science" and "madness" as divisors is already in the top ten of those of my own works I prize the most, so I would be the last to scorn a poem ONLY for its subject matter. Let me add that I've quite enjoyed most of the academic poems that have recently been posted, and imagine Reece's Brooks Brothers poem, which I haven't read, is fairly okay. My continuing gripe is that such poems are so close to being the only kind of poems the Poetry Establishment will publish, discuss, teach and give blue ribbons to. --Bob G. From tadrichards Thu Apr 15 07:40:04 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 07:40:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects References: <006f01c422d7$9a29cc00$47efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000501c422de$668d31f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> "The Ashbery to Wilbur crowd" has replaced "Iowa Workshop poets"? The problem is that represents at least 95% of the contemporary poetry reading public, so the notion that a poem might prove exciting to this crowd probably shouldn't be automatically dismissed. Another problem is that it isn't exactly news that most practitioners of any art form, in any time period, won't separate themselves from the pack, so to point this out is not, all by itself, startlingly insightful, unless you can also demonstrate that the creators of oddly-spelled words, rebuses, etc., are somehow exempt from this generalization, and that one can assume that a poem written in this form probably will prove exciting reading to a larger audience. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects > > Yet somehow Matthews did not manage to dislodge the notion that some > > subjects are inherently dull. Think how often you hear weary or scornful > > sighs over the Dead Grandmother Poem, the Poem About Poetry, the > > Confessional Poem, the Academic Poem, the Midlife Crisis poem, etc. As if > > subjects themselves were exhausted, rather than the poets in question. > > > > I think there are a number of reasons for the persistence of this > particular > > chimera, the Dull Subject: one is that there is always a good supply of > > dull readers. > > A larger one is that so many poets are incapable of adventurousness. So > their use of the subject matter in fashion tends to make sensitive readers > assume, sometimes unfairly but most of the time accurately, that they will > be as uninventive in their choice of form, diction, imagery and poetic > technique as they are in their choice of subject matter. > > A nearly as important reason for scorn of the kind of poems David mentions > is that there are so many poems that are NOTHING BUT their subject matter, > plus their poets' absolutely predictable sensitive insights. When one > hears, for example, that some Iowa Workshop poet has written a poem about > his dead grandmother, we really don't have to learn anything more about his > poem to be confident that it won't prove exciting reading for anyone but the > Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. > > Finally, no matter how good a new poem about some currently overdone subject > is, there has to be a time when ANY poem on that subject is going to bore > one. It IS possible to overdo something. Same with overdone forms and > techniques. Rhyme didn't finally lose out to free verse (albeit not > necessarily forever) because there was something wrong with it, but (in good > part) because it was over-used and people understandably tired of it. > > My favorite subject matter, by the way, is poetry. An in-progress sequence > in which I use "poetry" as the dividend in long division examples and > everything from "words" to "science" and "madness" as divisors is already in > the top ten of those of my own works I prize the most, so I would be the > last to scorn a poem ONLY for its subject matter. > > Let me add that I've quite enjoyed most of the academic poems that have > recently been posted, and imagine Reece's Brooks Brothers poem, which I > haven't read, is fairly okay. My continuing gripe is that such poems are so > close to being the only kind of poems the Poetry Establishment will publish, > discuss, teach and give blue ribbons to. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Thu Apr 15 08:51:14 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:51:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A TRIBUTE TO MARIANNE MOORE '09 Message-ID: <6.26948189.2dafdf42@aol.com> Subject: Marianne Moore Tribute Bryn Mawr College presents A TRIBUTE TO MARIANNE MOORE '09 Tuesday April 20, 7:30, Thomas Great Hall, at Bryn Mawr Featured readings of Moore's poems & commentary by: ? ? James Fenton (*Out of Danger*, *Children in Exile* etc etc) ? ? Daniel Hoffman (a dozen books, most recently *Beyond Silence*) ? ? Karl Kirchwey (*A Wandering Island*, *Those I Guard*, *The Engrafted Word*, *At the Palace of Jove*) ? ? Grace Schulman (most recently, *The Paintings of Our Lives* & *Days of Wonder*; Schulman is also editor of *The Poems of Marianne Moore* <2003> and author of *Marianne Moore: The Poetry of Engagement*) ? ? Susan Stewart (most recently the work of criticism *Poetry and the Fate of the Senses* and *Columbarium*, which won the 2003 National Book Critics Circle Award in Poetry) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Thu Apr 15 09:03:38 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:03:38 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anniversary - Naropa Message-ID: <002101c422ea$11f9ed20$83737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> April 07, 2004 Commemorating 30 years of disembodied poetics at Naropa This is the 30th anniversary year of The Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics, founded by Allen Ginsberg, Anne Waldman, and Diane Di Prima at the Naropa Institute, and its annual summer convocation of writers, "joining a passion for writing and literature with the mindfulness and awareness developed through traditional contemplative practices." Marking the anniversary, the East Coast Naropa alumni are gathering to celebrate 30 years of "the pursuit of sane poesy" at the Bowery Poetry Club on April 25th, 3 - 5:30 pm, featuring past and present Naropa students and faculty: Anne Waldman Steven Taylor, Brenda Coultas, Peter Lamborn Wilson, Bob Holman, Lorna Smedman, Alan Gilbert, Kristin Prevallet, James Ruggia, Joel Lewis, Robert Masterson, Mary Kite, Rembert Block, Kirpal Gordon, Michael Smoler, Steve Hirsch, and perhaps "some very special guests." Says organizer Steve Hirsch: "Let's stir the spirits of Ginsberg, Corso, Burroughs and the rest of our departed beat heros with a howl of our own to commemorate the founding of one of this country's leading academies of poetic pursuit at the first fully-accredited, Buddhist-inspired university in America. A READING NOT TO BE MISSED! BE THERE OR BE SQUARE!" http://poetry.about.com/b/a/078862.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Thu Apr 15 10:04:15 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:04:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects In-Reply-To: <006f01c422d7$9a29cc00$47efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/15/04 5:51 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > A larger one is that so many poets are incapable of adventurousness. So > their use of the subject matter in fashion tends to make sensitive readers > assume, sometimes unfairly but most of the time accurately, that they will > be as uninventive in their choice of form, diction, imagery and poetic > technique as they are in their choice of subject matter. > > A nearly as important reason for scorn of the kind of poems David mentions > is that there are so many poems that are NOTHING BUT their subject matter, > plus their poets' absolutely predictable sensitive insights. When one > hears, for example, that some Iowa Workshop poet has written a poem about > his dead grandmother, we really don't have to learn anything more about his > poem to be confident that it won't prove exciting reading for anyone but the > Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. .. .. .. > > Finally, no matter how good a new poem about some currently overdone subject > is, there has to be a time when ANY poem on that subject is going to bore > one. It IS possible to overdo something. > --Bob G. This really is one of those major fault lines of taste that I'm always nattering about. Some readers lay a great deal of stress upon novelty of subject and approach, and some don't. Some prefer to find their freshness within various conventions, and aren't at all averse to tackling a traditional subject or using a technique that time has proved effective, while others simply see no value in such an approach. And many poets on both "sides" of this squabble, alas, are all too quick to fall back into polemic rather than engage the issue with any subtlety. And yes of course there are many poets who ignore this artificial equator, more power to them. Which is why I recommend the Matthews essay "Dull Subjects" once more (it's in his prose collection *Curiosities*, full of other wonderful stuff, too.) I don't suppose Matthews will change anyone's hardened opinions on the issue, but the essay is one of the most pungent written on this eternally unanswered question. Among other virtues, he's neither a simplistic formalist nor a reductive experimentalist. This is the essay, by the way, that includes his somewhat famous comic reductio about the subjects of lyric poetry, which I am always delighted to have an excuse to quote. "A SHORT BUT COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF SUBJECTS FOR LYRIC POETRY" 1. I went out into the woods today and it made me feel, you know, sort of religious. 2. We're not getting any younger. 3. It sure is cold and lonely (a) without you, honey, or (b) with you, honey. 4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent and on we know not what. --William Matthews. "Dull Subjects." -Curiosities-. U Michigan Press, 1989. -------------------- As the essay makes clear, the above is not a satire of tired conventions but a jab at those who reduce complex, breathing poems to sound-bite summaries of their themes. Or (yes, this is a direct jab at you, Bob), those who take such an aerial view of the playing field that Ashbery and Wilbur look much the same. Earth and Mars look much the same, too, from Alpha Centauri, but when you arrive in our solar system the differences become pretty interesting. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames Thu Apr 15 12:09:14 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:09:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Academics and Workshops as themes for poetry; question re: g... Message-ID: <1e.26f2bf55.2db00daa@aol.com> In a message dated 4/14/04 11:50:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes: > Any suggestions? For this post I deleted > all other posts save David Graham's, to which I refer, just to see if it > would come through cleaner. That's the ticket...everyone needs to clean out those auto-copied extraneous messages trailing their text before hitting send. Esp., the digest folks who are inadvertently sending along the entire digest with their posts...& who will in turn get in digest a whole slew of duplicate posts. J Finnegan From cc Thu Apr 15 12:17:17 2004 From: cc (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:17:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ms. Graham and Mr. Heaney In-Reply-To: <200404140220.i3E2KPXE002552@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The statement "...Graham doesn't belong on the same stage", may be incorrect since Ms. Graham has probably made arrangements with Mr. Heaney and the Yeats school to be on the same stage -- and if so, then she does belong according to the convention by which such arrangements are made. Do you agree? I would guess, though I don't know, that you may agree and that what you may be saying, without saying it, is that you judge that Ms. Graham's poetry is not worthy to be spoken on the same stage with Mr. Heaney's poetry. Although I am tempted to ask for an absolute scale of aesthetic value that would prove the purported consensual truth implied by the statement -- and I would be very interested if you had such an absolute scale of aesthetic value -- yet I must admit I have never seen or heard of any such thing. Have you? Unless it is posterity -- but posterity works so slowly both of these poets will be underground before we know whether they should have shared the stage. By then, we will be too late to prevent it happening. If this is true, "she doesn't belong" would be an absolute statement of a relative truth -- a personal opinion dressed up as a general reality. A common thing, no more beautiful to me for its ubiquity -- but I am ignorant in these matters -- and defenseless to prevent Ms. Graham and Mr. Heaney from sharing the stage if they wish to do so. > From: "C. E. Chaffin" > To: > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:11:37 -0600 > That Heaney is reading with Jorie Graham at the Dublin Writer's workshop, > after which she shall supervise the learning modules, strikes me as? > Elliptical? Unbelievable? > > Perhaps it doesn't matter that Graham doesn't belong on the same > stage. But > poetry makes for strange bedfellows. > > Happy Birthday, Seamus! > > --CE From barry.spacks Thu Apr 15 12:21:39 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:21:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cross Hairs In-Reply-To: <200404151244.i3FCi1XE015931@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040415091124.00b65cf8@incoming.verizon.net> > --Bob G. wrote: >My continuing gripe is that such poems are >so close to being the only kind of poems the >Poetry Establishment will publish, discuss, >teach and give blue ribbons to. Breaking news! New things all the wildly-New time! Hey, we couldn't get by without a lot of BURSTNORM reminding, we clumped-up, shivering, pinned-and-wriggling IOWANS (with a half smiley-face), Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliotpoe Thu Apr 15 14:04:54 2004 From: eliotpoe (C. E. Chaffin) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:04:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] To R. J. and Bob G. References: <200404151244.i3FCi2XE015935@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: | | C.E. - on behalf of the Brotherhood of Initialed Poets, let me publicly | welcome you to the list. I mostly lurk here, but will lurk more now | that | you're around. You'll probably see some old faces - Anthony Robinson | posts | here every so often. | | Carry on, Carry on. Thanks, R.J., nice to know you're still out there. How's Eye Dialect? And did the Collins "Workshop" poem that I posted ever come through on the list? I don't remember seeing it. Below, I finally bit on Bob G.'s bait. LOL! Thine, CE ******************************************************************* | | A nearly as important reason for scorn of the kind of poems David mentions | is that there are so many poems that are NOTHING BUT their subject matter, | plus their poets' absolutely predictable sensitive insights. When one | hears, for example, that some Iowa Workshop poet has written a poem about | his dead grandmother, we really don't have to learn anything more about his | poem to be confident that it won't prove exciting reading for anyone but the | Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. First, Bob: Although Ashbery and Wilbur may have run in the same circles (doubtful they can run anymore!), their styles are so divergent as to make their grouping together a social one, not one of form. Wilbur has much to say. See "Advice to a Prophet" or "Epistemology" for example. Ashbery has many ways to say nothing. He polished John O'Hara's spontaneous rants into a new form of meaningless references to coincidental details, both mental and circumstantial, of a very high order. But diction ain't enough. Say something, anything, is always my motto. Poems about how one goes about saying something, to me, are poisoned by the nihilism of deconstructionism. In other words, here's to dead Grandmas! | My favorite subject matter, by the way, is poetry. An in-progress sequence | in which I use "poetry" as the dividend in long division examples and | everything from "words" to "science" and "madness" as divisors is already in | the top ten of those of my own works I prize the most, so I would be the | last to scorn a poem ONLY for its subject matter. Second: Joe, did we ever know you? The above paragraph sets off every alarm in my ever-lovin' head. Poems about poetry are the death of poetry. I don't like movies about movies, dances about dance, or music about music. McLuhan was wrong about the ideal of art, if not its practice in the late last century. The medium is a transducer, not the fuse that drives the flower. When art concerns itself mainly with art, it by nature degenerate, at best imitative of the past, as Koch imitated Thomson's _Seasons_ before his death. --CE From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 16:44:23 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:44:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cross Hairs References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040415091124.00b65cf8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <00da01c4232a$71436fa0$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> --Bob G. wrote: My continuing gripe is that such poems are so close to being the only kind of poems the Poetry Establishment will publish, discuss, teach and give blue ribbons to. Breaking news! New things all the wildly-New time! Hey, we couldn't get by without a lot of BURSTNORM reminding, we clumped-up, shivering, pinned-and-wriggling IOWANS (with a half smiley-face), Barry I don't believe most New-Poetry people are in the Iowa Workshop School. The most vocal here seem to be either formalist poets left behind by the Iowa Workshop School, or those whose have come to terms with it, but compose many other kinds of poetry. I do believe that the majority of people posting to New-Poetry are in the Ashbery-Wilbur crowd--i.e., those who believe they are aware of and sensitive to the whole range of significant poetry because they appreciate both Wilbur and Ashbery, each of whose poetry is quite different from the other's but not as different from it as it is from burstnorm poetry. Think in terms of the Ingres to Cezanne continuum as it would have seemed in 1950. And, yes, you do need reminding that there's more out there than Iowa Workshop Poetry and pre-Iowa formal poetry. Maybe that will annoy someone enough into really looking at it, just to point out its flaws. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 15 17:40:54 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:40:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] To R. J. and Bob G. Message-ID: <15f.2e3e5411.2db05b66@aol.com> In a message dated 4/15/04 2:11:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes: > A nearly as important reason for scorn of the kind of poems David > mentions > | is that there are so many poems that are NOTHING BUT their subject matter, > | plus their poets' absolutely predictable sensitive insights. When one > | hears, for example, that some Iowa Workshop poet has written a poem about > | his dead grandmother, we really don't have to learn anything more about > his > | poem to be confident that it won't prove exciting reading for anyone but > the > | Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. > > First, Bob: > > Although Ashbery and Wilbur may have run in the same circles (doubtful they > can run anymore!), their styles are so divergent as to make their grouping > together a social one, not one of form. > I'll jump in, in Bob's defense, for once: "Ashbery to Wilbur" makes for some nice bookends to describe contemporary poetry's mainstream. Of course a spectrum of colored bookjackets fits in-between, and the model fails to plot modes of writing that diverge from that line/plane. You'd really need more of a matrix to better map the field between Bob's imposed poles. On the subject of subjects I really don't see the point. Of course we're writing poems about the same life issues as the Greeks were writing poems about...because they're important to us as living, human beings, or should be anyway. Personally I feel somewhat sorry for a poet incapable of writing a poem about/for his/her dead grandmother if what is preventing her/him from doing so is irony or the weight of history or politics imbedded in language, etc. Pound didn't say "Make new it." Finnegan From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 18:04:29 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:04:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] To R. J. and Bob G. References: <200404151244.i3FCi2XE015935@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <011801c42335$a1fb5b20$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Below, I finally bit on Bob G.'s bait. LOL! Right, CE--you bit on my bait, even though I was responding to your non-bait. > | | A nearly as important reason for scorn of the kind of poems David > mentions > | is that there are so many poems that are NOTHING BUT their subject matter, > | plus their poets' absolutely predictable sensitive insights. When one > | hears, for example, that some Iowa Workshop poet has written a poem about > | his dead grandmother, we really don't have to learn anything more about > his > | poem to be confident that it won't prove exciting reading for anyone but > the > | Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. > > First, Bob: > > Although Ashbery and Wilbur may have run in the same circles (doubtful they > can run anymore!), their styles are so divergent as to make their grouping > together a social one, not one of form. I meant by the Ashbery to Wilbur crowd, as I just indicated in another post this afternoon, but which I thought was fairly clear from the many times I've used the term, the people who consider themselves appreciative of the whole range of poetry because they admire the poetry of both Wilbur and Ashbery, one a formal poet who goes back to 1900 for most of his toolkit, the other a jumpcut poet who goes back to Eliot for most of his. I like Wilbur and even wrote about a passage of his (positively) in my one (self-) published full-length book. > Wilbur has much to say. See "Advice to a Prophet" or "Epistemology" for > example. > Ashbery has many ways to say nothing. He polished John O'Hara's spontaneous > rants into a new form of meaningless references to coincidental details, > both mental and circumstantial, of a very high order. But diction ain't > enough. I'm not much for Ashbery but he does much more than you give him credit for. > Say something, anything, is always my motto. > > Poems about how one goes about saying something, to me, are poisoned by the > nihilism of deconstructionism. > In other words, here's to dead Grandmas! I've always been against the French influence but not against discussion of any particular subject--unless just about everybody is doing it. It seems to me that Stevens did a lot of discussion of discussion, if obliquely. > | My favorite subject matter, by the way, is poetry. An in-progress > sequence > | in which I use "poetry" as the dividend in long division examples and > | everything from "words" to "science" and "madness" as divisors is already > in > | the top ten of those of my own works I prize the most, so I would be the > | last to scorn a poem ONLY for its subject matter. > > Second: > > Joe, did we ever know you? The above paragraph sets off every alarm in my > ever-lovin' head. Poems about poetry are the death of poetry. I don't like > movies about movies, dances about dance, or music about music. McLuhan was > wrong about the ideal of art, if not its practice in the late last century. > The medium is a transducer, not the fuse that drives the flower. When art > concerns itself mainly with art, it by nature degenerate, at best imitative > of the past, as Koch imitated Thomson's _Seasons_ before his death. > > --CE I don't see why any artist should not treat every possible subject. I would bring in Stevens again. His poetry certainly mainly concerned itself with art--with metaphor, in fact. But it concerned itself in such a way as to bring in a lot more, as I also try to in my poetry. Subject matter is not very important. It's what it allows a poet to make that counts. I'm not contradicting myself: grandmother poems are fine--if done by poets using their grandmothers to make something more than the kind of standard sensitive piece of journalism with an epiphany at the end that most Iowa Workshop Poems are. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 18:19:51 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:19:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dull Subjects References: <006f01c422d7$9a29cc00$47efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000501c422de$668d31f0$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <012601c42337$c7089b60$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > "The Ashbery to Wilbur crowd" has replaced "Iowa Workshop poets"? No. > The problem is that represents at least 95% of the contemporary poetry > reading public, so the notion that a poem might prove exciting to this crowd > probably shouldn't be automatically dismissed. I doubt that more than 5% of the contemporary poetry reading public likes Ashbery. But I probably should have left out my Ashbery to Wilbur jibe. > Another problem is that it isn't exactly news that most practitioners of any > art form, in any time period, won't separate themselves from the pack, so to > point this out is not, all by itself, startlingly insightful, unless you can > also demonstrate that the creators of oddly-spelled words, rebuses, etc., > are somehow exempt from this generalization, and that one can assume that a > poem written in this form probably will prove exciting reading to a larger > audience. I wasn't trying to be insightful. But I consider it a fact that a poem about a subject that many poets have treated will more likely seem exciting to an intelligent person if the poet does something most other poets don't do in his poem--like spelling words oddly or using rebuses or the one or two other things that makes a poet burstnorm which I forget but Barry will be able to tell you of--than if he does things most other poets also do. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 18:30:12 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:30:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects References: Message-ID: <018101c42339$39054050$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > A larger one is that so many poets are incapable of adventurousness. So > > their use of the subject matter in fashion tends to make sensitive readers > > assume, sometimes unfairly but most of the time accurately, that they will > > be as uninventive in their choice of form, diction, imagery and poetic > > technique as they are in their choice of subject matter. > > > > A nearly as important reason for scorn of the kind of poems David mentions > > is that there are so many poems that are NOTHING BUT their subject matter, > > plus their poets' absolutely predictable sensitive insights. When one > > hears, for example, that some Iowa Workshop poet has written a poem about > > his dead grandmother, we really don't have to learn anything more about his > > poem to be confident that it won't prove exciting reading for anyone but the > > Ashbery to Wilbur crowd. .. .. .. > > > > Finally, no matter how good a new poem about some currently overdone subject > > is, there has to be a time when ANY poem on that subject is going to bore > > one. It IS possible to overdo something. > > > --Bob G. > > This really is one of those major fault lines of taste that I'm always > nattering about. Some readers lay a great deal of stress upon novelty of > subject and approach, and some don't. Some prefer to find their freshness > within various conventions, and aren't at all averse to tackling a > traditional subject or using a technique that time has proved effective, > while others simply see no value in such an approach. I'm for any kind of freshness, but it's hard to understand what kind of freshness would now be possible in the kind of low-key near-prose that Iowa Workshop poets seem to be aiming for. It's like trying to ocme up with a fresh rhyme. > And many poets on both "sides" of this squabble, alas, are all too quick to > fall back into polemic rather than engage the issue with any subtlety. > And yes of course there are many poets who ignore this artificial equator, > more power to them. > > Which is why I recommend the Matthews essay "Dull Subjects" once more (it's > in his prose collection *Curiosities*, full of other wonderful stuff, too.) > I don't suppose Matthews will change anyone's hardened opinions on the > issue, but the essay is one of the most pungent written on this eternally > unanswered question. Among other virtues, he's neither a simplistic > formalist nor a reductive experimentalist. > This is the essay, by the way, that includes his somewhat famous comic > reductio about the subjects of lyric poetry, which I am always delighted to > have an excuse to quote. > > "A SHORT BUT COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF SUBJECTS FOR LYRIC POETRY" > > 1. I went out into the woods today and it made me feel, you know, sort of > religious. > > 2. We're not getting any younger. > > 3. It sure is cold and lonely (a) without you, honey, or (b) with you, > honey. > > 4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice > versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent and on we know not what. > > --William Matthews. "Dull Subjects." -Curiosities-. U Michigan > Press, 1989. > -------------------- > > As the essay makes clear, the above is not a satire of tired conventions but > a jab at those who reduce complex, breathing poems to sound-bite summaries > of their themes. > > Or (yes, this is a direct jab at you, Bob), those who take such an aerial > view of the playing field that Ashbery and Wilbur look much the same. Earth > and Mars look much the same, too, from Alpha Centauri, but when you arrive > in our solar system the differences become pretty interesting. But not as interesting as the differences between either one and the sun. --Bob G. > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 18:47:30 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:47:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] To R. J. and Bob G. References: <15f.2e3e5411.2db05b66@aol.com> Message-ID: <019901c4233b$a435d310$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I'll jump in, in Bob's defense, for once: "Ashbery to Wilbur" makes for > some nice bookends to describe contemporary poetry's mainstream. > Of course a spectrum of colored bookjackets fits in-between, and the > model fails to plot modes of writing that diverge from that line/plane. > You'd really need more of a matrix to better map the field between > Bob's imposed poles. > On the subject of subjects I really don't see the point. Of course > we're writing poems about the same life issues as the Greeks > were writing poems about...because they're important to us as living, > human beings, or should be anyway. Personally I feel somewhat > sorry for a poet incapable of writing a poem about/for his/her dead > grandmother if what is preventing her/him from doing so is irony > or the weight of history or politics imbedded in language, etc. > Pound didn't say "Make new it." > Finnegan All I'm saying is that if you write about your grandmother, you need to do something in your poem of interest to excite an audience that you would not have to do if you had an unconventional subject matter. I myself don't do unconventional subject matter, which perhaps is an important reason why I try to use unconventional poetic devices. To get away from Iowa, I think my complaint against 90% of American haiku published that they constantly use the same images and same themes without doing anything technically fresh is valid. There ARE such things as cliches. In haiku one is spring flowers contrasted with gravestones--or anything suggestive of spring or youth contrasted with anything suggestive of decay or death. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Apr 15 18:55:21 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:55:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Charles Wright References: <200404151244.i3FCi2XE015935@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <011801c42335$a1fb5b20$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <01ac01c4233c$bca3fc50$30efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Just a note to say I subbed as a library helper at my high school today and spent much of the day shelving books. I had a chance to browse through a few books while doing this and one I browsed through was The Harvard anthology of "contemporary poets" edited by Vendler in 1985. Charles Wright had a section, so I read some of his poems. I've read him before but without remembering anything about the experience. The reason for this report is that I liked his poems. Even though he's won prizes. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 15 21:59:01 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:59:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects Message-ID: <4e.2a4ecfe4.2db097e5@cs.com> In a message dated 4/15/2004 5:31:15 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > > >"A SHORT BUT COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF SUBJECTS FOR LYRIC POETRY" > > > >1. I went out into the woods today and it made me feel, you know, sort of > >religious. > > Marvell, Bryant, Wordsworth, Emerson, Frost, Oliver, Rogers > >2. We're not getting any younger. > > Shakespeare, Marvell, Herrick, Housman, Larkin > >3. It sure is cold and lonely (a) without you, honey, or (b) with you, > >honey. > > Shakespeare, Millay, Ransom, Plath > >4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice > >versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent and on we know not what. > > Everypoet, including moi > > --William Matthews. "Dull Subjects." -Curiosities-. U Michigan So what? There are no new subjects, but there continue to be good poems on the old ones. It's all in the grip, as the golf pros(e) say. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 15 22:03:04 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:03:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] To R. J. and Bob G. Message-ID: In a message dated 4/15/2004 5:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > All I'm saying is that if you write about your grandmother, you need to do > something in your poem of interest to excite an audience that you would not > have to do if you had an unconventional subject matter. I myself don't do > unconventional subject matter, which perhaps is an important reason why I > try to use unconventional poetic devices. > I am still waiting for "Having Sex with Granny." > To get away from Iowa, I think my complaint against 90% of American haiku > published that they constantly use the same images and same themes without > doing anything technically fresh is valid. There ARE such things as > cliches. In haiku one is spring flowers contrasted with gravestones--or > anything suggestive of spring or youth contrasted with anything suggestive > of decay or death. > > --Bob G. Spring flowers: gravestones? Suggestive of spring or youth Or decay or death? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcrew Thu Apr 15 22:20:32 2004 From: lcrew (Louie Crew) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A friend alerted me: > Florida State University has put up a very interesting presentation > on their website. It begins as a view of the Milky Way Galaxy viewed > from a distance of 10 million light years and then zooms in towards > Earth in powers of ten of distance -10 million, to one million, to > 100,000 light years, etc., until it finally reaches a large Oak tree > leaf. But that is not all. It zooms into the leaf until it reaches > to the level of the quarks viewed at 100 attometers. Whew! > > http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.htm This is one of the most moving websites I have visited in months. It will surprise you with joy, the way a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem does. Lutibelle/Louie From JforJames Thu Apr 15 22:37:50 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:37:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A Stevensian tsunami? Message-ID: <51.3d56e75f.2db0a0fe@aol.com> I was at a Wallace Stevens Conference at UConn http://www.humanities.uconn.edu/wallacestevens2004.htm this past week. I attended a good number of the readings of papers and panels. Helen Vendler gave an evening lecture. (She seems very down to earth for all her accolades, BTW.) Among the poets in attendance, James Logenbach, Susan Howe, Ellen Bryant Voigt, JD McClatchy, Mark Doty. Also, Christopher Wiman, the new editor of Poetry. He sauntered into the middle of an ambush during a panel entitled "Stevens' Collected Poems the Next 50 Years." He was one of the last to speak, after Serio (editor of the Wallace Stevens Journal) and after Susan Howe (SUNY Buffalo) had spoken of great promise and positive influences to come, he says, to paraphrase, that poetry doesn't need more poets in the Stevens vein, and that this would be a bad thing if more poets were influenced by Stevens' poetry, that as much as he's attracted to Stevens' poetry, it's much too cerebral, abstract, and purposefully disconnected from the real world and human concerns, too much at play in the language's sandbox, etc. (All fairly common critiques of Stevens.) Susan Howe leapt to Stevens defense and said she had big problems with Poetry magazine and the kind of poetry it represents. (No surprise there.) Wiman had a good retort...He said he too had some problems with Poetry magazine and was going to change things. (He's new to the job afterall.) I don't think there is any kind of impending Stevensian wave about to innudate the mailboxes of Poetry magazine & other litmags, so it was strange of all the possible threats to poetry's (big P's & little po's) future that Wiman's believes that the Stevensian mode is most worrisome. In private conversation after the panel I heard a number of people express pleasure that Wiman had stirred things up a bit...played the fly in the opulent ointment of Stevens in which we were all were being thoroughly slathered. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 15 22:42:30 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:42:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! Message-ID: <1d4.1f188857.2db0a216@cs.com> In a message dated 4/15/2004 9:21:05 PM Central Daylight Time, lcrew at andromeda.rutgers.edu writes: > > A friend alerted me: > > >Florida State University has put up a very interesting presentation > >on their website. It begins as a view of the Milky Way Galaxy viewed > >from a distance of 10 million light years and then zooms in towards > >Earth in powers of ten of distance -10 million, to one million, to > >100,000 light years, etc., until it finally reaches a large Oak tree > >leaf. But that is not all. It zooms into the leaf until it reaches > >to the level of the quarks viewed at 100 attometers. Whew! > > > >http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.htm > > > This is one of the most moving websites I have visited in months. It > will surprise you with joy, the way a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem does. > > Lutibelle/Louie > > Wow! On the one hand: The Library is limitless and periodic. On the other: I have it in me so much nearer home To scare myself with my own desert places. Signed, Professor Who Taught Borges and Frost on the Same Day -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 15 22:53:37 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 22:53:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A Stevensian tsunami? Message-ID: <1a4.2290d6ae.2db0a4b1@cs.com> In a message dated 4/15/2004 9:39:06 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > I was at a Wallace Stevens Conference at UConn > http://www.humanities.uconn.edu/wallacestevens2004.htm > this past week. I attended a good number of > the readings of papers and panels. Helen Vendler > gave an evening lecture. (She seems very down > to earth for all her accolades, BTW.) > Among the poets in attendance, James Logenbach, > Susan Howe, Ellen Bryant Voigt, JD McClatchy, Mark Doty. > > Also, Christopher Wiman, the new editor of Poetry. > He sauntered into the middle of an ambush during a > panel entitled "Stevens' Collected Poems the Next > 50 Years." He was one of the last to speak, after > Serio (editor of the Wallace Stevens Journal) and > after Susan Howe (SUNY Buffalo) had spoken of great > promise and positive influences to come, he says, > to paraphrase, that poetry doesn't need more poets > in the Stevens vein, and that this would be a bad thing > if more poets were influenced by Stevens' poetry, > that as much as he's attracted to Stevens' poetry, > it's much too cerebral, abstract, and purposefully > disconnected from the real world and human concerns, > too much at play in the language's sandbox, etc. > (All fairly common critiques of Stevens.) > Susan Howe leapt to Stevens defense and said > she had big problems with Poetry magazine and > the kind of poetry it represents. (No surprise there.) > Wiman had a good retort...He said he too had > some problems with Poetry magazine and was going > to change things. (He's new to the job afterall.) > I don't think there is any kind of impending > Stevensian wave about to innudate the mailboxes > of Poetry magazine &other litmags, so it was strange > of all the possible threats to poetry's (big P's &little po's) > future that Wiman's believes that the Stevensian mode > is most worrisome. > In private conversation after the panel I heard a number > of people express pleasure that Wiman had stirred > things up a bit...played the fly in the opulent ointment > of Stevens in which we were all were being thoroughly > slathered. > Finnegan I congratulate Wiman on his statement. There's so much to admire in Stevens--especially the early Stevens--and so little in the late, all that philosophical stuff that Vendler has championed through the years. I love a lot of his work but find much to much of it . . . precieux, if that's the term. His particular circumstances, like Marianne Moore's, shaped his poetry, but I think it slipped into personal mannerism fairly early on (even though his career began late). To champion him as the great American poet of the century has always seemed to me a bad mistake. Ironically, Poetry was the greatest and most consistent venue for his work. Ashbery, of course, has been identified by many as his chief descendant, and I can see the justice in that to a degree. If you establish a poetics resolutely founded on not directly speaking about what's really bugging you, you seem to be in the misty netherlands of double negativity. Still, one could say the same thing about Frost and a host of others, now that I think of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Fri Apr 16 00:42:23 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 23:42:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040415234211.G88541@kpaul.spinweb.net> wow. thanks for that. -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, Louie Crew wrote: > A friend alerted me: > > > Florida State University has put up a very interesting presentation > > on their website. It begins as a view of the Milky Way Galaxy viewed > > from a distance of 10 million light years and then zooms in towards > > Earth in powers of ten of distance -10 million, to one million, to > > 100,000 light years, etc., until it finally reaches a large Oak tree > > leaf. But that is not all. It zooms into the leaf until it reaches > > to the level of the quarks viewed at 100 attometers. Whew! > > > > http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.htm > > > This is one of the most moving websites I have visited in months. It > will surprise you with joy, the way a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem does. > > Lutibelle/Louie > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Fri Apr 16 06:16:36 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:16:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects References: <4e.2a4ecfe4.2db097e5@cs.com> Message-ID: <00a401c4239b$e7d86c80$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> >4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice >versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent and on we know not what. > Everypoet, including moi Not everypoet. I don't know whether I've done such a poem, but I know Richard Kostelanetz hasn't. Poets can make poems that are about objects and don't express sentiments. > --William Matthews. "Dull Subjects." -Curiosities-. U Michigan So what? There are no new subjects, but there continue to be good poems on the old ones. It's all in the grip, as the golf pros(e) say. It strikes me that properly speaking, there are new subjects--the Internet, say--but no new themes. A trivial distinction, but true, yes. (I'm not trying to bait anyone, just wanting to get it as right as possible.) --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 16 06:19:34 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:19:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] To R. J. and Bob G. References: Message-ID: <00ae01c4239c$51ff6960$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> All I'm saying is that if you write about your grandmother, you need to do something in your poem of interest to excite an audience that you would not have to do if you had an unconventional subject matter. I myself don't do unconventional subject matter, which perhaps is an important reason why I try to use unconventional poetic devices. >I am still waiting for "Having Sex with Granny." That thought crossed my mind, too. Or on "Which of My Grannies Should I Make into Hamburger and Have a Meal of This Evening." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 16 06:33:40 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:33:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Stevensian tsunami? References: <51.3d56e75f.2db0a0fe@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c4239e$4a457f50$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Also, Christopher Wiman, the new editor of Poetry. Yesterday I read his editorial for the Keiller issue. I found it conventionally obtuse but--gee--I can't remember why. I started Gioia's essay and found it very entertainingly written but didn't have a chance to get far into it. He sauntered into the middle of an ambush during a panel entitled "Stevens' Collected Poems the Next 50 Years." He was one of the last to speak, after Serio (editor of the Wallace Stevens Journal) and after Susan Howe (SUNY Buffalo) had spoken of great promise and positive influences to come, he says, to paraphrase, that poetry doesn't need more poets in the Stevens vein, and that this would be a bad thing if more poets were influenced by Stevens' poetry, that as much as he's attracted to Stevens' poetry, it's much too cerebral, abstract, and purposefully disconnected from the real world and human concerns, too much at play in the language's sandbox, etc. (All fairly common critiques of Stevens.) Forgive me, but it sounds like he wants me-centered poems of the you-know-what school of poetry. Did he say what kind of poetry he'd like that wasn't in the Stevensian vein, James? Susan Howe leapt to Stevens defense and said she had big problems with Poetry magazine and the kind of poetry it represents. (No surprise there.) Wiman had a good retort...He said he too had some problems with Poetry magazine and was going to change things. (He's new to the job afterall.) I don't think there is any kind of impending Stevensian wave about to innudate the mailboxes of Poetry magazine & other litmags, so it was strange of all the possible threats to poetry's (big P's & little po's) future that Wiman's believes that the Stevensian mode is most worrisome. In private conversation after the panel I heard a number of people express pleasure that Wiman had stirred things up a bit...played the fly in the opulent ointment of Stevens in which we were all were being thoroughly slathered. Finnegan The thought that Stevens may be too big an influence just short of fifty years after his death amuses me a bit. I think all the better poets in tune at all with his poetry have absorbed him along with a lot of other poets and gone on to do all kinds of poetry, even Iowa Workshop poetry, that is influenced but far from dominated by what they've taken from Stevens. If Poetry changes more than two percent from what it now is, I'll be amazed. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 16 06:45:52 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:45:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Stevensian tsunami? References: <1a4.2290d6ae.2db0a4b1@cs.com> Message-ID: <00c801c4239f$fed439b0$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I was at a Wallace Stevens Conference at UConn http://www.humanities.uconn.edu/wallacestevens2004.htm this past week. I attended a good number of the readings of papers and panels. Helen Vendler gave an evening lecture. (She seems very down to earth for all her accolades, BTW.) Among the poets in attendance, James Logenbach, Susan Howe, Ellen Bryant Voigt, JD McClatchy, Mark Doty. Also, Christopher Wiman, the new editor of Poetry. He sauntered into the middle of an ambush during a panel entitled "Stevens' Collected Poems the Next 50 Years." He was one of the last to speak, after Serio (editor of the Wallace Stevens Journal) and after Susan Howe (SUNY Buffalo) had spoken of great promise and positive influences to come, he says, to paraphrase, that poetry doesn't need more poets in the Stevens vein, and that this would be a bad thing if more poets were influenced by Stevens' poetry, that as much as he's attracted to Stevens' poetry, it's much too cerebral, abstract, and purposefully disconnected from the real world and human concerns, too much at play in the language's sandbox, etc. (All fairly common critiques of Stevens.) Susan Howe leapt to Stevens defense and said she had big problems with Poetry magazine and the kind of poetry it represents. (No surprise there.) Wiman had a good retort...He said he too had some problems with Poetry magazine and was going to change things. (He's new to the job afterall.) I don't think there is any kind of impending Stevensian wave about to innudate the mailboxes of Poetry magazine &other litmags, so it was strange of all the possible threats to poetry's (big P's &little po's) future that Wiman's believes that the Stevensian mode is most worrisome. In private conversation after the panel I heard a number of people express pleasure that Wiman had stirred things up a bit...played the fly in the opulent ointment of Stevens in which we were all were being thoroughly slathered. Finnegan I congratulate Wiman on his statement. There's so much to admire in Stevens--especially the early Stevens--and so little in the late, all that philosophical stuff that Vendler has championed through the years. I love a lot of his work but find much to much of it . . . precieux, if that's the term. His particular circumstances, like Marianne Moore's, shaped his poetry, but I think it slipped into personal mannerism fairly early on (even though his career began late). To champion him as the great American poet of the century has always seemed to me a bad mistake. Ironically, Poetry was the greatest and most consistent venue for his work. Ashbery, of course, has been identified by many as his chief descendant, and I can see the justice in that to a degree. If you establish a poetics resolutely founded on not directly speaking about what's really bugging you, you seem to be in the misty netherlands of double negativity. Still, one could say the same thing about Frost and a host of others, now that I think of it. I have a decidedly different view of Stevens: for me, what was really bugging him was the question, what is art, and he made various answers to it as directly as a poet can. He certainly deserves to be in the running for Greatest American Poet of the first half of the last century because of his way of jolting a reader into High Beauty--in his later poetry as much as in his earlier--for instance, in "Not Ideas about the Thing but the Thing Itself," one of my very favorite poems by anyone, and "The River of Rivers in Connecticut." "The World as Meditation," another late poem, is a wonderful love poem, for those that need common sentiment in their poetry. "The Red Fern," another of my alltime favorites, and his poem to Santayana, were written in his last decade, too. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier Fri Apr 16 10:19:02 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:19:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! References: Message-ID: <006b01c423bd$c4e3c8b0$720c9942@Helen> What a great website. . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louie Crew" To: Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 10:20 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! > A friend alerted me: > > > Florida State University has put up a very interesting presentation > > on their website. It begins as a view of the Milky Way Galaxy viewed > > from a distance of 10 million light years and then zooms in towards > > Earth in powers of ten of distance -10 million, to one million, to > > 100,000 light years, etc., until it finally reaches a large Oak tree > > leaf. But that is not all. It zooms into the leaf until it reaches > > to the level of the quarks viewed at 100 attometers. Whew! > > > > http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.htm > > > This is one of the most moving websites I have visited in months. It > will surprise you with joy, the way a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem does. > > Lutibelle/Louie > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From anny.ballardini Fri Apr 16 10:41:47 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:41:47 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! References: <006b01c423bd$c4e3c8b0$720c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <004b01c423c0$f20f52c0$ca607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> I do agree, exceptional, Anny From: "Helen Ruggieri" Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 4:19 PM > What a great website. . . . > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Louie Crew" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 10:20 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! > > > > A friend alerted me: > > > > > Florida State University has put up a very interesting presentation > > > on their website. It begins as a view of the Milky Way Galaxy viewed > > > from a distance of 10 million light years and then zooms in towards > > > Earth in powers of ten of distance -10 million, to one million, to > > > 100,000 light years, etc., until it finally reaches a large Oak tree > > > leaf. But that is not all. It zooms into the leaf until it reaches > > > to the level of the quarks viewed at 100 attometers. Whew! > > > > > > > http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.htm > > > > > > This is one of the most moving websites I have visited in months. It > > will surprise you with joy, the way a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem does. > > > > Lutibelle/Louie > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From kpaul Fri Apr 16 10:46:26 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:46:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! In-Reply-To: <006b01c423bd$c4e3c8b0$720c9942@Helen> References: <006b01c423bd$c4e3c8b0$720c9942@Helen> Message-ID: <20040416094553.J62976@kpaul.spinweb.net> Just heard from someone else it was a movie in the 60s or 70s? Or something very similar - man and woman in field, zooms out to universe, then back into their hand... -kpaul On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, Helen Ruggieri wrote: > What a great website. . . . > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Louie Crew" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 10:20 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! > > > > A friend alerted me: > > > > > Florida State University has put up a very interesting presentation > > > on their website. It begins as a view of the Milky Way Galaxy viewed > > > from a distance of 10 million light years and then zooms in towards > > > Earth in powers of ten of distance -10 million, to one million, to > > > 100,000 light years, etc., until it finally reaches a large Oak tree > > > leaf. But that is not all. It zooms into the leaf until it reaches > > > to the level of the quarks viewed at 100 attometers. Whew! > > > > > > > http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.htm > > > > > > This is one of the most moving websites I have visited in months. It > > will surprise you with joy, the way a Gerard Manley Hopkins poem does. > > > > Lutibelle/Louie > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Fri Apr 16 10:53:55 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:53:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sarah Lawrence Poetry Festival, this weekend Message-ID: Sarah Lawrence Poetry Festival http://www.slc.edu/poetry/index.php?content=schedule From wjbat Fri Apr 16 10:56:21 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:56:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! In-Reply-To: <20040416094553.J62976@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <38FC44CE-8FB6-11D8-99F1-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Friday, April 16, 2004, at 10:46 AM, kpaul mallasch wrote: > Just heard from someone else it was a movie in the 60s or 70s? Or > something very similar - man and woman in field, zooms out to universe, > then back into their hand... > Yes, _Powers of Ten_. It was a book and--fuzzy recollection--a PBS TV production? A famous short film, at any rate. Good to see it updated for the web & Hubble era. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Don't walk so fast. The rain is everywhere. --Shunryu Suzuki From kellogg Fri Apr 16 11:00:02 2004 From: kellogg (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:00:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! In-Reply-To: <38FC44CE-8FB6-11D8-99F1-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> References: <38FC44CE-8FB6-11D8-99F1-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <1082127602.407ff4f230d6f@webmail.duke.edu> I just rented Powers of Ten last week from the public library for my son. It's a great short film by Charles and Ray Eames, the polymath designers. Quoting Wendy Battin : > On Friday, April 16, 2004, at 10:46 AM, kpaul mallasch wrote: > > Just heard from someone else it was a movie in the 60s or 70s? Or > > something very similar - man and woman in field, zooms out to universe, > > then back into their hand... > > > > Yes, _Powers of Ten_. It was a book and--fuzzy recollection--a PBS TV > production? A famous short film, at any rate. Good to see it updated > for the web & Hubble era. > > Wendy > > > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > > Don't walk so fast. The rain is everywhere. > --Shunryu Suzuki > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > David Kellogg Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 From grahamd Fri Apr 16 11:17:41 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:17:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! In-Reply-To: <1082127602.407ff4f230d6f@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: The Stars Beneath My Feet Not the burrowing star-nosed mole or the earth roots of the star thistle or the yellow star flowers of star grass, not the fallen webs and empty egg sacs of star-bellied spiders, not blood stars or winged sea stars tight on their tidal rock bottoms, and I don't mean either the lighted star-tips of the lantern fish and anglerfish drifting miles deep at the ocean's end of their forever good night. I mean those actual stars filling the skies directly below me with ignited hubs and knotted assemblies combusting into the waves of their own momentum, the same stars in kind as the ones above?gaseous blue clusters of clouds expelling hot superstellars, fusing galaxy upon galaxy of old histories and reverberations. Those stars. Were the earth made of glass, any of us could look down now and see them speeding away deeper into their vast eras of math and glory existing immediately beneath us where we stand suspended. Even while marsh rains slowly fill the hoofprints of passing deer, even while flocks of lark and longspur fly across the evening with accordion motions of fracture and union, even while you, fragranced with sleep, draw me close or send me out, stars and myriads of stars possess their places, surrounding us as if their facts bore us upward from below, sheltered us in matrices of invisible canopies above, as if they graced us with a balance manifest in their far numbers extending away equally on our left and on our right. They are the designated ancestors of our eyes created in the lasting moments of their own dead light. They keep us on all sides bound safe within their spheres and apart from that great dire and naught existing beyond the measurable edges of their established dominions. --Pattiann Rogers. *Song of the World Becoming: New and Collected Poems, 1981-2001*. Milkweed Press. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From adead_poet Fri Apr 16 11:55:07 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:55:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404161547.i3GFlAXE028534@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JforJames Fri Apr 16 12:02:29 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:02:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! Message-ID: <62.3d00d688.2db15d95@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/04 10:47:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kpaul at mallasch.com writes: > Just heard from someone else it was a movie in the 60s or 70s? Or > something very similar - man and woman in field, zooms out to universe, > then back into their hand... Not exactly this, but there is conversation between scientist, politician and poet in "Mindwalk" that speaks to the universe in terms of space distance and atomic distance... http://www.dunvagen.com/mindwalk-video.html w/ music by Phillip Glass. Finnegan From kellogg Fri Apr 16 12:37:03 2004 From: kellogg (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:37:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Glory be to God for dappled things! In-Reply-To: <62.3d00d688.2db15d95@aol.com> References: <62.3d00d688.2db15d95@aol.com> Message-ID: <1082133423.40800baf7c868@webmail.duke.edu> The Eames film "Powers of Ten" is precisely that. It's a man and a woman having a picnic on the grass in Chicago, I think with a 1m frame. Every ten seconds the distance increases by a power of ten. At a distance of 1 LY the stars start moving as relativity kicks in. Eventually it zooms back to the couple, and then further in, to the hand, the skin on the hand, 1m, 10cm, 1cm, 1mm, etc., till you get to quarks. The VHS of the film (which is one of a series of Eames shorts released on video in the eighties) also includes the draft version of the film, called something like "A Sketch for a Short Film about the Effects of Measurement and Adding the Number Zero." David Quoting JforJames at aol.com: > In a message dated 4/16/04 10:47:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > kpaul at mallasch.com writes: > > > Just heard from someone else it was a movie in the 60s or 70s? Or > > something very similar - man and woman in field, zooms out to universe, > > then back into their hand... > > Not exactly this, but there is conversation between scientist, politician > and poet in "Mindwalk" that speaks to the universe in terms of space > distance and atomic distance... > http://www.dunvagen.com/mindwalk-video.html > w/ music by Phillip Glass. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > David Kellogg Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 From paul.lake Fri Apr 16 12:44:56 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:44:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: I agree with Sam Gwynn and Christian Wiman about Stevens. For anyone interested, I've attached is an essay on Stevens I once published in the Stevens journal that deals with some of the things Wiman and Gwynn mentioned. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/applefile Size: 441 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/msword Size: 72192 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bobgrumman Fri Apr 16 16:17:29 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:17:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens References: Message-ID: <012401c423ef$d98ba4e0$4defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> A further response to what Wiman said about Stevens's influence that I forgot to make: I seriously doubt that there are enough poets around intelligent enough to be influenced by Stevens, so Wiman shouldn't worry. Yes, ironic that Stevens got published a lot in Poetry, as did many other of the best poets way back when. It was once a pretty good magazine. One last note: I remembered one thing about Wiman's editorial that I found obtuse: hist notion (if I read him right, and I do think it possible I did not) that the visual image, not ascendant over the verbal image, is inferior to it because it is immediate, and not connotative. As thought most verbal utterances are less immediate than most visual images, and that visual images can't be as connotative (he didn't use that adjective but meant it, I'm pretty sure) as the most connotative visual images. --Bob G. From JforJames Fri Apr 16 16:51:54 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:51:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't Underestimate The Power Of Poetry Message-ID: <1dd.1f2b6b4d.2db1a16a@aol.com> Subject: Hartford Courant, op ed on poetry today Don't Underestimate The Power Of Poetry Bessy Reyna April 16 2004 April is National Poetry Month, a time of the year when poets become minor celebrities. Invitations to participate in readings pour in, and poets find themselves rushing from one program to another. Trying to keep up with this once-a-year demand can be exhilarating, exhausting and frustrating. Maybe there is a need to have a month to remind people about poetry and to make it accessible to them. Many think of poetry as we think of antiques, as something that represents the past, beautiful but not of our time and place. One reason for that perception is that until recently mainstream bookstores carried volumes mostly by dead poets. Contemporary poetry could be found only at the few independent and college bookstores. And our culture is creative but often wrong in its stereotypes. Generally, poets are perceived as being out of the mainstream, unimportant. When was the last time you saw a poet being presented or interviewed on network TV? However, today's poets are vital human beings contributing unique perspectives from a variety of vantage points. Despite lacking media support, poetry continues to be published, and it is flourishing. Poets can be found not only in academia, but in every walk of life. Rafael Campo, a physician who teaches at Harvard Medical School, has published several books of poetry. In his book of essays "The Poetry of Healing," he writes about his experience using poetry as a healing element for himself and with his patients. The Legal Studies Forum of West Virginia University College of Law just published a 732-page volume devoted entirely to poetry written by lawyers. According to its editor, James Elkins, this is a first for a legal journal in the United States. In his remarkable introduction, Elkins confesses that he knew about two lawyer poets: Connecticut's Wallace Stevens and Archibald MacLeish. However, after reading the work of John William Corrington, a judge and a poet, Elkins found himself on a quest for poetry written by lawyers. Among the 66 poets in this anthology is Lawrence Russ, an assistant attorney general for the state of Connecticut. Today, participating in a poetry workshop can be a life-changing experience. Recently I had the privilege to attend a workshop at Trinity College conducted by award-winning poet Sonia Sanchez. Now in its 30th year, the poet-in-residence program is directed by poet Pam Nomura and supported by Trinity's Poetry Center and English department. What makes this program special is that it not only benefits the Trinity students, it also provides a unique experience for Hartford-area high school students to come to Trinity to work with some of the best poets in the United States. This year, Sanchez worked with teacher John Hill's poetry students from the Greater Hartford Classical Magnet School at Hartford Public High. Though nearly 70, Sanchez connects and creates a bond with high school students by respecting them and reading poems that are meaningful to them, such as one she wrote about controversial rap singer Tupac Shakur, who was murdered in 1996. They listen and absorb what she has to teach them. At the end of Sanchez's recent workshop, the students begged, "Please, come back soon." During the ride back to school from Trinity, some of them were crying. Hill said one student, Eileen Echevarria, came to his office to thank him for the experience. "I think this changed my life forever," she told him. A poem can say what we find inexpressible. It can evoke our shared emotions, our humanity. A few weeks ago, at my friend David Leventhal's memorial service, his son Max read the poem "The Moment" by Margaret Atwood. Those few stanzas captured the feelings of everyone present: the combined beauty and fragility of a life. Some years ago, at a lecture at Central Connecticut State University, Maya Angelou chided her audience to read poetry every day: "It will put starch in your backbone." Now, what other art form can do that for you? Bessy Reyna is author of the poetry collection "She Remembers" (1997, Andrew Mountain Press). To leave her a comment in English or Spanish, please call 860-241-3165. Or e-mail her at bessy_reyna at hotmail.com. Copyright 2004, Hartford Courant From grahamd Fri Apr 16 21:53:19 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 20:53:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Late Stevens in general doesn't do much for me, either, especially as compared to the splendors and serious weirdness of *Harmonium*. There are always gorgeous moments, though, even in those long poems of philosophical wheel-spinning. But I'm not often tempted to re-read them. Still, in *The Rock* and in many brief lyrics of the later years Stevens does come up with some very sad and savory poems of old age, no? An Old Man Asleep The two worlds are asleep, are sleeping, now. A dumb sense possesses them in a kind of solemnity. The self and the earth--your thoughts, your feelings, Your beliefs and disbeliefs, your whole peculiar plot; The redness of your reddish chestnut trees, The river motion, the drowsy motion of the river R. --Wallace Stevens ---------------------------------------- Vacancy In The Park March . . . Someone has walked across the snow, Someone looking for he knows not what. It is like a boat that has pulled away From bobgrumman Fri Apr 16 21:58:43 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:58:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob... References: <200404161412.i3GEC3XE027463@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <01bd01c4241f$85560610$4defa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob, I jumped too quickly. Wilbur _to_ Ashbery as convenient borders of > mainstream poetry, I see that, though it leaves a lot of unmapped territory > for discussion, which you obviously know and sometimes lament. > > It was the _phrase_, "Wilbur to Ashbery crowd" that confused me. Well, I'm not the most unconfusing blurter around. > Secondly, about Stevens: > > He wrote about imaginary toads in imaginary gardens, IMNSHO. I feel he MADE imaginary toads in imaginary gardens and thus enlarged the world rather than repeated it journalistically the way accessible poets mostly do. > Without committing psychobiography on his insular life, enough to say that > he went so far over to Byzantium that any emotional response to his late > work (how often I find myself saying that about poets) is rejected by the > work itself, which _allows_ only an aesthetic/philosophical response, unless > one is autistic or schizoid. Read the one about Penelope. As for the others, I'd rather respond "only" aesthetically/philosophically to a poem than respond only what I call anthroceptually (peoplely). But I think "Of Mere Being," from his last year, is as deeply human as any poem could be: The palm at the end of the mind, Beyond the last thought, rises In the bronze distance, A gold-feathered bird Sings in the palm, without human meaning, Without human feeling, a foreign song. You know then that it is not the reason That makes us happy or unhappy. The bird sings. Its feathers shine. The palm stands on the edge of space. The wind moves slowly in the branches. The bird's fire-fangled feathers dangle down. --Bob G. From grahamd Fri Apr 16 22:09:18 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:09:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Early Stevens Message-ID: Tea at the Palaz of Hoon Not less because in purple I descended The western day through what you called The loneliest air, not less was I myself. What was the ointment sprinkled on my beard? What were the hymns that buzzed beside my ears? What was the sea whose tide swept through me there? Out of my mind the golden ointment rained, And my ears made the blowing hymns they heard. I was myself the compass of that sea: I was the world in which I walked, and what I saw Or heard or felt came not but from myself; And there I found myself more truly and more strange. --Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From FanwoodJEL Fri Apr 16 22:11:41 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:11:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob... Message-ID: In a message dated 4/16/2004 9:13:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes: enough to say that he went so far over to Byzantium that any emotional response to his late work (how often I find myself saying that about poets) is rejected by the work itself, which _allows_ only an aesthetic/philosophical response, unless one is autistic or schizoid. About your About Stevens: I respond -- have always responded -- viscerally to his late work, which I experience as layered and complexly beautiful, his language of ideas a supple and slippery shelter for the things of the real world housed beneath -- Stevens' inventions always breaking at the last moment into emotional components because he seems to understand the weight of those emotional pieces -- and where they come from. Meaning our lives. I'm devastated to learn that this response shows me to be autistic or schizoid. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo Fri Apr 16 23:33:46 2004 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:33:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob... Message-ID: <200404170217.i3H2HI7f081784@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Jeffrey Levine---- your response and mine I think are rather similar, though we'd say it differently... In any event, thanks for this passionate defense of late stevens.... and, I certainly would not call you altistic or schizoid, but then I guess I've been called autistic or schizoid myself.... Chris ---------- From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob... Date: Fri, Apr 16, 2004, 6:11 PM In a message dated 4/16/2004 9:13:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes: enough to say that he went so far over to Byzantium that any emotional response to his late work (how often I find myself saying that about poets) is rejected by the work itself, which _allows_ only an aesthetic/philosophical response, unless one is autistic or schizoid. About your About Stevens: I respond -- have always responded -- viscerally to his late work, which I experience as layered and complexly beautiful, his language of ideas a supple and slippery shelter for the things of the real world housed beneath -- Stevens' inventions always breaking at the last moment into emotional components because he seems to understand the weight of those emotional pieces -- and where they come from. Meaning our lives. I'm devastated to learn that this response shows me to be autistic or schizoid. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Fri Apr 16 22:42:11 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:42:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects Message-ID: <410-22004461724211795@M2W099.mail2web.com> <> And this is good because....? Original Message: ----------------- From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:16:36 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects >4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice >versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent and on we know not what. > Everypoet, including moi Not everypoet. I don't know whether I've done such a poem, but I know Richard Kostelanetz hasn't. Poets can make poems that are about objects and don't express sentiments. > --William Matthews. "Dull Subjects." -Curiosities-. U Michigan So what? There are no new subjects, but there continue to be good poems on the old ones. It's all in the grip, as the golf pros(e) say. It strikes me that properly speaking, there are new subjects--the Internet, say--but no new themes. A trivial distinction, but true, yes. (I'm not trying to bait anyone, just wanting to get it as right as possible.) --Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From kpaul Fri Apr 16 22:45:29 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:45:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects In-Reply-To: <410-22004461724211795@M2W099.mail2web.com> References: <410-22004461724211795@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040416214345.J2213@kpaul.spinweb.net> you object to objects or just a dull sub- ject poe- m? sure- ly you jest. -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Fri, 16 Apr 2004, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: > < >> > > And this is good because....? > > > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:16:36 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects > > > >4. Sadness seems but the other side of the coin of happiness, and vice > >versa, and in any case the coin is too soon spent and on we know not what. > > > > > Everypoet, including moi > Not everypoet. I don't know whether I've done such a poem, but I know > Richard Kostelanetz hasn't. Poets can make poems that are about objects > and don't express sentiments. > > > > --William Matthews. "Dull Subjects." -Curiosities-. U Michigan > > > So what? There are no new subjects, but there continue to be good poems > on the old ones. It's all in the grip, as the golf pros(e) say. > > It strikes me that properly speaking, there are new subjects--the > Internet, say--but no new themes. A trivial distinction, but true, yes. > (I'm not trying to bait anyone, just wanting to get it as right as > possible.) > > --Bob G. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wjbat Fri Apr 16 22:57:45 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:57:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00AAC4A3-901B-11D8-99F1-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Thanks for this, Jeffrey. Whatever the diagnosis, I'm willing to share it. And to Bob G: I doubt that not being smart enough has ever deterred any of us from from being influenced by Stevens. Wendy On Friday, April 16, 2004, at 10:11 PM, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: > About your About Stevens: > ? > I respond -- have always responded -- viscerally to his late work, > which I experience as layered and complexly beautiful, his language of > ideas a supple and slippery shelter for the things of the real world > housed beneath -- Stevens' inventions always breaking at the last > moment into emotional components because he seems to understand the > weight of those emotional pieces -- and where they come from. Meaning > our lives. I'm devastated to learn that this response shows me to be > autistic or schizoid. > ? > Jeffrey Levine > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Contemporary American Poetry Archive http://capa.conncoll.edu From wjbat Fri Apr 16 23:05:06 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 23:05:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects In-Reply-To: <410-22004461724211795@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <0739842C-901C-11D8-99F1-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Friday, April 16, 2004, at 10:42 PM, tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: > < sentiments. > > And this is good because....? If the doors of perception were cleansed, every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thru' narrow chinks of his cavern. Wm Blake Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan From Rsgwynn1 Fri Apr 16 23:28:18 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 23:28:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens Message-ID: In a message dated 4/16/2004 8:53:24 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Vacancy In The Park > > March . . . Someone has walked across the snow, > Someone looking for he knows not what. > > It is like a boat that has pulled away > From a shore at night and disappeared. > > It is like a guitar left on a table > By a woman, who has forgotten it. > > It is like the feeling of a man > Come back to see a certain house. > > The four winds blow through the rustic arbor, > Under its mattresses of vines. > > --Wallace Stevens After having read Peter Brazeau's Parts of a World, the "oral biography" of Stevens, I find this much more meaningful and beautiful. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 17 06:22:12 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 06:22:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob... References: <200404161412.i3GEC3XE027463@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <006b01c42465$dac818e0$3befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Without committing psychobiography on his insular life, enough to say that > he went so far over to Byzantium that any emotional response to his late > work (how often I find myself saying that about poets) is rejected by the > work itself, which _allows_ only an aesthetic/philosophical response, unless > one is autistic or schizoid. What really seems weird to me about this, although I didn't notice it till I reread what you said in a couple of later posts in the thread, is that you--like so many--think that an aesthetic response or philosophical response, or some combination of the two is necessarily unemotional. My own experience contradicts that notion rather strongly. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 17 06:34:06 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 06:34:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects References: <410-22004461724211795@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <00af01c42467$84c263e0$3befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > < >> > > And this is good because....? Because it keeps them from expressing sentiments that might disturb the genteel readers of True Poetry. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 17 06:37:38 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 06:37:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Mea to Bob... References: <00AAC4A3-901B-11D8-99F1-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <00be01c42468$02e81760$3befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > And to Bob G: I doubt that not being smart enough has ever deterred any > of us from from being influenced by Stevens. > > Wendy I should have said, "A further response to what Wiman said about Stevens's influence that I forgot to make: I seriously doubt that there are enough poets around intelligent enough to be *significantly* influenced by Stevens, so Wiman shouldn't worry." --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 17 08:25:07 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 08:25:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens References: Message-ID: <010b01c42477$06caaaf0$3befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> One of the reasons I post a lot, besides the fact that so much of the time I'm the only one here wanting or willing to defend some point of view is that the fire I draw makes me think more concentratedly about my own poetry. Recently, for instance, burstnorm poetry was described as "odd spellings and rebuses, etc.," or something close to that. Yes, I thought, infraverbal poetry, one of the many kinds of burstnorm poetries there are, can probably be accurately described as odd spellings, just as traditional verse can be described as consistent rhythms and pretty-sounding words. But just as meter and the melodic devices of poetry are, at their best, definers and extenders of mood, and sometimes even metaphorical, oddly-spelled words at their best add to the poems they are in. At a higher level, actually, since infraverbal poets only use them when they achieve metaphoricality, as "lighght" does so multiply for those open to its effects. That made me think about what the "hte" I stole from David did in the poem I put it in. It was intended to convey a whole new way of taking reality, a reality as beyond "the the" and "the the" was beyond any "the something." As I considered the "hte," however, I suddenly realized that Stevens was concerned with some final reality, not some different reality. To go even further in the direction he had been going, I needed not "the hte," but . . . well, my revised poem is below. No longer, alas, directly influenced by David's pwoermd. I liked it before; I think it significantly better now--albeit nothing but an odd spelling: Poem's Patience Rewarded Poem spent months on the dump studying the the. He knew that poetry can't permanently stop growing, even in the starkest wand's winter of our finest poet of ultimate stillnesses, but where, he wondered, was even the smallest flicker of anywhere further in the absolute black just beyond the the? Yet, as he wondered and wondered, he wore slowly down to the edge of his voice, then at last into something long-lost that was more primary than voice, and there in a black somehow increased from the black it had been before, he began to make out hints of the th. Bob Grumman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 17 10:11:44 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:11:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens, correction References: <010b01c42477$06caaaf0$3befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <015201c42486$00545180$3befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> One of the reasons I post a lot, besides the fact that so much of the time I'm the only one here wanting or willing to defend some point of view is that the fire I draw makes me think more concentratedly about my own poetry. Recently, for instance, burstnorm poetry was described as "odd spellings and rebuses, etc.," or something close to that. Yes, I thought, infraverbal poetry, one of the many kinds of burstnorm poetries there are, can probably be accurately described as odd spellings, just as traditional verse can be described as consistent rhythms and pretty-sounding words. But just as meter and the melodic devices of poetry are, at their best, definers and extenders of mood, and sometimes even metaphorical, oddly-spelled words at their best add to the poems they are in. At a higher level, actually, since infraverbal poets only use them when they achieve metaphoricality, as "lighght" does so multiply for those open to its effects. That made me think about what the "hte" I stole from David did in the poem I put it in. It was intended to convey a whole new way of taking reality, a reality as beyond "the the" AS "the the" was beyond any "the something." As I considered the "hte," however, I suddenly realized that Stevens was concerned with some final reality, not some different reality. To go even further in the direction he had been going, I needed not "the hte," but . . . well, my revised poem is below. No longer, alas, directly influenced by David's pwoermd. I liked it before; I think it significantly better now--albeit nothing but an odd spelling: Poem's Patience Rewarded Poem spent months on the dump studying the the. He knew that poetry can't permanently stop growing, even in the starkest wand's winter of our finest poet of ultimate stillnesses, but where, he wondered, was even the smallest flicker of anywhere further in the absolute black just beyond the the? Yet, as he wondered and wondered, he wore slowly down to the edge of his voice, then at last into something long-lost that was more primary than voice, and there in a black somehow increased from the black it had been before, he began to make out hints of the th. Bob Grumman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Apr 17 11:25:04 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:25:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens Message-ID: <9e.848936a.2db2a650@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/2004 9:53:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Still, in *The Rock* and in many brief lyrics of the later years Stevens > does come up with some very sad and savory poems of old age, no? > > yes, those.are important. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Apr 17 11:51:52 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:51:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens Message-ID: <15.26855479.2db2ac98@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/2004 11:29:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > >> Vacancy In The Park >> >> March . . . Someone has walked across the snow, >> Someone looking for he knows not what. >> >> It is like a boat that has pulled away >> From a shore at night and disappeared. >> >> It is like a guitar left on a table >> By a woman, who has forgotten it. >> >> It is like the feeling of a man >> Come back to see a certain house. >> >> The four winds blow through the rustic arbor, >> Under its mattresses of vines. >> >> --Wallace Stevens > > After having read Peter Brazeau's Parts of a World, the "oral biography" of > Stevens, I find this much more meaningful and beautiful. I don't have Brazeau at hand...but this must be Elizabeth Park in Hartford, a favorite Stevens haunt. The mattresses of vines are the climbing roses in the Rose Gardern. Thursday night I went to photographer Chritine Breslin's opening at 100 Pearl Gallery. She showed photos taken in Eliz. Park in winter using a very rudimentary camera, a Holga (sp?). Lovely, atmospheric pieces, most in black & white, or sepia tones. One lovely color piece primarily blue and black. The photos match the feel of this poem. I hope to find a URL to post or get a jpeg to forward backchannel to anyone interested. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sat Apr 17 12:03:30 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:03:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens Message-ID: One reason I like this list is that it's always nudging me to pull books off my shelf, such as Stevens's *The Rock* poems, which I haven't looked at in a while. Once I get started it can be hard to stop. For example: The River of Rivers In Connecticut There is a great river this side of Stygia, Before one comes to the first black cataracts And the trees that lack the intelligence of trees. In that river, far this side of Stygia. The mere flowing of the water is a gayety, Flashing and flashing in the sun. On its banks, No shadow walks. The river is fateful, Like the last one. But there is no ferryman. He could not bend against its propelling force. It is not to be seen beneath the appearances That tell of it. The steeple at Farmington Stands glistening and Haddam shines and sways. It is the third commonness with light and air, A curriculum, a vigor, a local abstraction ... Call it, once more, a river, an unnamed flowing, Space-filled, reflecting the seasons, the folk-lore Of each of the senses; call it, again and again, The river that flows nowhere, like a sea. Wallace Stevens ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From hruggier Sat Apr 17 14:32:23 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 14:32:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY REVIEWS Message-ID: <002201c424aa$53db0780$610d9942@Helen> Sorry for being late with my paper, my computer, my disk, my printer, ate it. Last week of classes here so by the time I got up to the Library to borrow POETRY you were on to Stevens. Very interesting indeed. But first some comments about the magazine. Have I always wanted to be published there? You bet. When folks ask where have you published I can say POETRY and not have to babble on about Existential Expressway being a fine blah blah or Vile only taking the best blah. Do I read the poetry to find out what's happening. Surely you jest. I read the reviews and the contributor notes to see who has been luckier than I . . . . So they get ten thousand submissions a week/day/month. whatever. Surely with all that material they could find something better to put on a page than that little four liner: HERE Ghost I house In this old flat-- Your outpost-- My aftermath Cute, but is it poetry? Apparently it is POETRY. This is a mag. with lots of money - they could be more, much more. These reviews may be the start of something big (I doubt it, but one should always maintain a positive outlook, shouldn't one?) After all native born pessimists are shunned quite like introverts. I digress. I read each section and quite agreed while I was reading it. I laughed more with Kleinzahler. However, I too suspect a poet who starts out - I too dislike it. Perhaps I'll have to look at Writers Almanac or even listen to Prairie Home Companion. I read one of his novels (reminiscence)? once (Keillor's) and was stunned that such mediocrity had been published, but that's another bag of sour grapes. I'll wait till the local library buys ithe anthology and get back to you with my opinion. I can always trust the Library to buy what's in the middle of the road. By golly, we were the first to ban Judy Blume (and before anybody complained, just in case some one did complain). My advice to my own students - if you want to be a published poet -- run for office, study acting, make a name for yourself in some other field first. Then foist the poems on an adoring public. Thanks for reading - Iwill be going back to a pile of technical manuals which have to be read, graded, etc. etc. by Monday. There's the poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo Sat Apr 17 16:12:57 2004 From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino ) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:12:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens Message-ID: <200404171856.i3HIuS2G149840@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> One thing that seems to be one of those "bubbling beneath the surface" topics in most discussions of poetics---in my experience at least it's not discussed so blatantly and I wonder why (perhaps the "need" to "stick to ones guns etc?")--- is the relation of aging to poetic "taste"---For me, it's not so much that I don't like many of the the poems I did when younger--I do---but that I find myself also appreciating poems I dismissed when younger. But it's why more complex than that, and I'm bedridden and not even able to read right now..... anyway, just a thought... c ---------- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens Date: Sat, Apr 17, 2004, 7:25 AM In a message dated 4/16/2004 9:53:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: Still, in *The Rock* and in many brief lyrics of the later years Stevens does come up with some very sad and savory poems of old age, no? yes, those.are important. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sat Apr 17 15:42:40 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 14:42:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lives of the Poets Message-ID: I might as well mention, before anyone else does, that the following rambly poem is not necessarily *The Waste Land* or "September 1, 1939." But I thought perhaps a gossipy bunch of poetry obsessed fools such as ourselves might enjoy it. I enjoyed it. The Lives of the Poets JOHN BALABAN "The country is proud of its dead poets. It takes terrific satisfaction in the poets' testimony that the USA is too tough, too big, too much, too rugged, that American reality is overpowering.?So poets are loved, but loved because they just can't make it here." ---Saul Bellow, Humboldt's Gift Fact is, it's a reality that grinds us all, even those who whisper to themselves: *"if I were not such a corrupt, unfeeling bastard, creep, thief, and vulture, I couldn't get through this either."* Still they collapse at meetings, on tennis courts, pig valves going ka-boom in their hearts, pitching into their *Wall Street Journals* as the train lurches home to the Hamptons as the cab crawls uptown to the condo on the Park. Dying in their dandruff, on their treadmills, taking their sips of dioxin seepage, eyes fried by computer screens and boredom. The huge need for cocaine said it all. o Well, these were the thoughts that came to me on a high wooded bluff outside Port Townsend just after Levertov died. Her *Times* obit ran next to some admiral's from the Vietnam War, apparent adversaries, now side by side, true to their conflicting truths. The hand that gives. The hand that takes. All about me clumps of sweet pea, purples and pinks, cascaded down the grassy hillsides as dawn mist raveled a wreath through inky tops of Douglas firs. Far off, the distant Straits of Juan de Fuca pulled tides below a cloudbank and ferry foghorns called, each to each. Can sung words calm the guns of a steeled fleet? ("*Orpheus moved stones and trees. But a poet can't perform a hysterectomy or send a vehicle out of the solar system*.") At Sotheby's, Ginsberg's top hat went for $258 after the bad gray poet launched his last exhalation. o Unsettled, I drove to Seattle's Blue Moon Tavern where soon I annoyed a man in straggly hair and baseball cap, reading Cicero through wire-rims, hunched at the beat-up bar and railing at me "Man, I *told* you, I don't *know* those people!" My mistake. He looked like he might have perched on that barstool reading Latin for decades since abandoning a dissertation. But he didn't know Roethke, or Hugo, or Wright whose framed lugubrious black-and-whites still hung from the rough plank walls where once they drank and howled like Humboldt. The only woman among them: Carolyn Kizer, with her huge sultry eyes and severe French hat, Dorothy Parker to this Algonquin of moonstruck boozers. o "*The weakness of the spiritual powers is proved in the childishness, madness, drunkenness, and despair of these martyrs.?They succumbed, poor loonies*." One thinks of Roethke weeping over a dead mouse cupped in his huge hands. Of Hugo sweating out a hangover in the bleachers of a sandlot game. Lew Welch walking off forever into the scorpion Sierras. "*Hart Crane over the side of a ship. And Jarrell falling in front of a car. And poor John Berryman jumping from a bridge*." (And Plath and Sexton gassing themselves.) Delmore Schwartz, Humboldt Humbert, shouting from the moon. o So, praise to those still coming through on song, a bigger tribe than one can name and tough as anything put up by corporate America: Maxine Kumin with her horse-broke neck, still writing, still hitching up and riding Deuter. William Meredith struggling back towards speech. Hayden Carruth raising a toast with his "*poet's cheap, sufficient Chardonnay*." Richard Wilbur calling us to morning air awash with angels. Merwin in Hawaii, Snyder in the Sierras, both taking the nothingness of *sunyata* to conjure up a habitation. Walking their Sonoma farm with Kizer's husband John, we stopped before a storm-struck, twisted pear tree, a remnant from an orchard of 100 years ago. Out of the hulk of its blackened trunk, one smooth-skinned branch sent forth some leaves. "Still blooming?" I asked. "Madly," he said. *All italicized quotes are from Saul Bellow, *Humboldt's Gift* (Viking, 1975), page 117. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack Sat Apr 17 16:15:16 2004 From: sheilafblack (sheila black) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 20:15:16 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Late Stevens Message-ID: Dear David et al. I am new to the list and still worried about the technology of posting (I am really a throwback to the century before last as far as any machinery--including cars & telephones--is concerned, but just wanted to say how much I have been enjoying the Stevens poems you've been posting. They do not seem at all emotionless, but, on the contrary, remarkably successful at capturing the texture of a life--the layered and ineffable complexity. A reason to love this list. Sheila _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar ? FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ From grahamd Sat Apr 17 16:49:16 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:49:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging taste In-Reply-To: <200404171856.i3HIuS2G149840@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: on 4/17/04 3:12 PM, Chris Stroffolino at cstroffo at earthlink.net wrote: One thing that seems to be one of those "bubbling beneath the surface" topics in most discussions of poetics---in my experience at least it's not discussed so blatantly and I wonder why (perhaps the "need" to "stick to ones guns etc?")--- is the relation of aging to poetic "taste"---For me, it's not so much that I don't like many of the the poems I did when younger--I do---but that I find myself also appreciating poems I dismissed when younger. But it's why more complex than that, and I'm bedridden and not even able to read right now..... anyway, just a thought... c ------------------ Yeah, this certainly happens for me, too. There are poets I liked when younger that I simply can't stand now (Poe, e.g.), while others (more & more, it seems) have really grown on me. Larkin is a good example: I really hated his poems when I was in my 20s, but as I got older he got better. I didn't start really liking Kenneth Koch until I was in my 40s, for another example. And I suppose that I still feel a certain sense of loyalty to poets I once adored, even when my enthusiasm has waned a bit. Denise Levertov, for instance, was once at the top of my list. Not so much anymore, but I still feel great fondness for her work, even if I don't open the books much anymore. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From men2 Sat Apr 17 17:18:05 2004 From: men2 (Millie Niss on eathlink) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:18:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging taste References: Message-ID: <01f501c424c1$79ff2970$e1269d04@ibmfb1014a> I'm not very old yet, but my taste has moved from Seamus Heaney to Language Poetry in the last 10 years. I still like (but like you, do not actually read) some of my early favorites, like Marilyn Hacker, some Anthony Hecht etc. Now the last book os poetry I bought is by Ron Silliman... But I think that represents a change, but not necessarily progress. I _wish_ I could enjoy Heaney now-- I just can't, except for some poems which are so familiar they're like old records you've played a million times. And I think there is more entertainment in much new formalist or just plain old fashioned writing than in postmodern work, only once you've been exposed to the more modern schools, the old ones lose their savor. I _enjoy_ some middlebrow poets like Albert Goldbarth or John Hollander, though, but they weren't from my earliest encounters with poetry. I _admire and approve of_ Susan Howe and Ron Silliman and Lyn Heijinian etc., but they aren't eactly _fun_. Bernstein and McCaffery are "fun" Language poets though... On another thread, I like late Stevens, but only if one reads him as if he were John Ashbery :-) Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging taste > on 4/17/04 3:12 PM, Chris Stroffolino at cstroffo at earthlink.net wrote: > > One thing that seems to be one of those "bubbling beneath the surface" > topics > in most discussions of poetics---in my experience at least it's not > discussed > so blatantly and I wonder why (perhaps the "need" to "stick to ones guns > etc?")--- > is the relation of aging to poetic "taste"---For me, it's not so much that I > don't > like many of the the poems I did when younger--I do---but that I find myself > also appreciating poems I dismissed when younger. But it's why more complex > than that, and I'm bedridden and not even able to read right now..... > > anyway, just a thought... > > c > ------------------ > > Yeah, this certainly happens for me, too. There are poets I liked when > younger that I simply can't stand now (Poe, e.g.), while others (more & > more, it seems) have really grown on me. Larkin is a good example: I > really hated his poems when I was in my 20s, but as I got older he got > better. > > I didn't start really liking Kenneth Koch until I was in my 40s, for another > example. > > And I suppose that I still feel a certain sense of loyalty to poets I once > adored, even when my enthusiasm has waned a bit. Denise Levertov, for > instance, was once at the top of my list. Not so much anymore, but I still > feel great fondness for her work, even if I don't open the books much > anymore. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Sat Apr 17 18:41:57 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 18:41:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulling a Florsheim from my gullet.... References: <200404170251.i3H2p2XE000468@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <02b501c424cd$32760ef0$3befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I think you set us up, CE--acting the lout so you could redeem yourself with a handsome apology. Anyway, I'm glad the poem I posted blew you away. A lot of Stevens's poems I don't like as much, and some I don't like at all. Of all the canonical poets I've come to admire, he took the longest for me to appreciate. --Bob G. From mandolin Sat Apr 17 20:39:46 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 20:39:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging taste In-Reply-To: <01f501c424c1$79ff2970$e1269d04@ibmfb1014a> References: <01f501c424c1$79ff2970$e1269d04@ibmfb1014a> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2004, at 5:18 PM, Millie Niss on eathlink wrote: > I'm not very old yet, but my taste has moved from Seamus Heaney to > Language > Poetry in the last 10 years. I still like (but like you, do not > actually > read) some of my early favorites, like Marilyn Hacker, some Anthony > Hecht > etc. Now the last book os poetry I bought is by Ron Silliman... But I > think that represents a change, but not necessarily progress. I _wish_ > I > could enjoy Heaney now-- I just can't, except for some poems which are > so > familiar they're like old records you've played a million times. And I > think there is more entertainment in much new formalist or just plain > old > fashioned writing than in postmodern work, only once you've been > exposed to > the more modern schools, the old ones lose their savor. > > I _enjoy_ some middlebrow poets like Albert Goldbarth or John > Hollander, > though, but they weren't from my earliest encounters with poetry. I > _admire > and approve of_ Susan Howe and Ron Silliman and Lyn Heijinian etc., > but they > aren't eactly _fun_. Bernstein and McCaffery are "fun" Language poets > though... > > On another thread, I like late Stevens, but only if one reads him as > if he > were John Ashbery :-) > Just as a data point and not as an invitation to argument, it's exactly the opposite for me. I used to be excited by experimental and avant garde writing like Zukofsky's or Ashberry's or, later, Silliman's, but now it seems to me like those 5000 piece puzzles of Red Riding Hood's cape, and I just don't have the time or patience for it anymore. That may be because I've started my second half-century dotage. On the other hand, every day Hecht and Justice and Bowers and Bogan seem better and more worth learning from, and lately I've been obsessed with Hardy. On the third hand, I might argue about Hollander being middlebrow, especially if that's in Virginia Woolf's deprecatory sense (is there any other?). >> on 4/17/04 3:12 PM, Chris Stroffolino at cstroffo at earthlink.net wrote: >> >> One thing that seems to be one of those "bubbling beneath the surface" >> topics >> in most discussions of poetics---in my experience at least it's not >> discussed >> so blatantly and I wonder why (perhaps the "need" to "stick to ones >> guns >> etc?")--- >> is the relation of aging to poetic "taste"---For me, it's not so much >> that > I >> don't >> like many of the the poems I did when younger--I do---but that I find > myself >> also appreciating poems I dismissed when younger. But it's why more > complex >> than that, and I'm bedridden and not even able to read right now..... >> >> anyway, just a thought... >> As I said above, some poets I once liked very much now seem hellishly tedious to me. I suppose it's inevitabe that personal tastes change, but it's interesting how differently it happens for different people. >> >> Yeah, this certainly happens for me, too. There are poets I liked >> when >> younger that I simply can't stand now (Poe, e.g.), while others (more >> & >> more, it seems) have really grown on me. Larkin is a good example: I >> really hated his poems when I was in my 20s, but as I got older he got >> better. >> >> I didn't start really liking Kenneth Koch until I was in my 40s, for > another >> example. >> >> And I suppose that I still feel a certain sense of loyalty to poets I >> once >> adored, even when my enthusiasm has waned a bit. Denise Levertov, for >> instance, was once at the top of my list. Not so much anymore, but I > still >> feel great fondness for her work, even if I don't open the books much >> anymore. >> Ditto on Levertov. Among the last century's poets, Richard Wilbur (well, he's still writing), Robert Graves, and Paul Goodman have been constant favorites of mine. It occurs to me that's an odd trinity. Best, Michael From bobgrumman Sat Apr 17 20:46:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (bobgrumman) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:46:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Language Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 93049 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10146 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sat Apr 17 22:22:09 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 22:22:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging taste Message-ID: <1e5.1dd4d2a1.2db34051@cs.com> In a message dated 4/17/2004 7:24:32 PM Central Daylight Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > On the other > hand, every day Hecht and Justice and Bowers and Bogan seem better and > more worth learning from, and lately I've been obsessed with Hardy. > Hardy, yes! And Bowers! And the others as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul Sun Apr 18 09:46:25 2004 From: paul (paul at tbhinc.com) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:46:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry The First Hundred Years In-Reply-To: <200404171600.i3HG02XE003698@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040418092845.02c9f688@mail.tbhinc.com> Richard Eberhart turns 100: The Fury of Aerial Bombardment You would think the fury of aerial bombardment Would rouse God to relent; the infinite spaces Are still silent. He looks on shock-pried faces. History, even, does not know what is meant. You would feel that after so many centuries God would give man to repent; yet he can kill As Cain could, but with multitudinous will, No farther advanced than in his ancient furies. Was man made stupid to see his own stupidity? Is God by definition indifferent, beyond us all? Is the eternal truth man's fighting soul Wherein the Beast ravens in its own avidity? Of Van Wettering I speak, and Averill, Names on a list, whose faces I do not recall But they are gone to early death, who late in school Distinguished the belt feed lever from the belt holding pawl. And this: At the Canoe Club (To Wallace Stevens) Just a short time ago I sat with him, Our arms were big, the heat was on, A glass in hand was worth all tradition. Outside the summer porch, the viable river Defied the murmurations of guile-subtle Truths, when arms were bare, when heat was on, Perceptible as picture: no canoe was seen. Such talk, and such fine summer ease, Our heart-life against time's king backdrop, Makes truth the best perplexity of all, A jaunty tone, a task of banter, rills In mind, an opulence agreed upon, Just so little time, bare-armed and sultry, Suspend its victims in illusion's colours, and subtle rapture of the postponed power. Paul C. Howell Newport, VT At 12:00 PM 4/17/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Late Stevens (David Graham) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:03:30 -0500 >From: David Graham >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Late Stevens >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >One reason I like this list is that it's always nudging me to pull books off >my shelf, such as Stevens's *The Rock* poems, which I haven't looked at in a >while. Once I get started it can be hard to stop. For example: > > >The River of Rivers In Connecticut > >There is a great river this side of Stygia, >Before one comes to the first black cataracts >And the trees that lack the intelligence of trees. > >In that river, far this side of Stygia. >The mere flowing of the water is a gayety, >Flashing and flashing in the sun. On its banks, > >No shadow walks. The river is fateful, >Like the last one. But there is no ferryman. >He could not bend against its propelling force. > >It is not to be seen beneath the appearances >That tell of it. The steeple at Farmington >Stands glistening and Haddam shines and sways. > >It is the third commonness with light and air, >A curriculum, a vigor, a local abstraction ... >Call it, once more, a river, an unnamed flowing, > >Space-filled, reflecting the seasons, the folk-lore >Of each of the senses; call it, again and again, >The river that flows nowhere, like a sea. > >Wallace Stevens > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini Sun Apr 18 11:57:30 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:57:30 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY REVIEWS References: <002201c424aa$53db0780$610d9942@Helen> Message-ID: <004b01c4255d$dadd50e0$e51c2dd5@yourpk9x5fuc06> Hi All, this mail of Helen is interesting, and I am answering it to let you know that I have about 200 messages to read on this list, piles of work to correct, poems to finish, and that spring is most beautiful round here, I feel I am barely able to float on the surface of things, and I am sorry, because I would like to follow what is going on here, I do hope in a time machine able to enlarge my personal time, any scientist-engineerings out there? Anny ----- Original Message ----- From: Helen Ruggieri To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 8:32 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY REVIEWS Sorry for being late with my paper, my computer, my disk, my printer, ate it. Last week of classes here so by the time I got up to the Library to borrow POETRY you were on to Stevens. Very interesting indeed. But first some comments about the magazine. Have I always wanted to be published there? You bet. When folks ask where have you published I can say POETRY and not have to babble on about Existential Expressway being a fine blah blah or Vile only taking the best blah. Do I read the poetry to find out what's happening. Surely you jest. I read the reviews and the contributor notes to see who has been luckier than I . . . . So they get ten thousand submissions a week/day/month. whatever. Surely with all that material they could find something better to put on a page than that little four liner: HERE Ghost I house In this old flat-- Your outpost-- My aftermath Cute, but is it poetry? Apparently it is POETRY. This is a mag. with lots of money - they could be more, much more. These reviews may be the start of something big (I doubt it, but one should always maintain a positive outlook, shouldn't one?) After all native born pessimists are shunned quite like introverts. I digress. I read each section and quite agreed while I was reading it. I laughed more with Kleinzahler. However, I too suspect a poet who starts out - I too dislike it. Perhaps I'll have to look at Writers Almanac or even listen to Prairie Home Companion. I read one of his novels (reminiscence)? once (Keillor's) and was stunned that such mediocrity had been published, but that's another bag of sour grapes. I'll wait till the local library buys ithe anthology and get back to you with my opinion. I can always trust the Library to buy what's in the middle of the road. By golly, we were the first to ban Judy Blume (and before anybody complained, just in case some one did complain). My advice to my own students - if you want to be a published poet -- run for office, study acting, make a name for yourself in some other field first. Then foist the poems on an adoring public. Thanks for reading - Iwill be going back to a pile of technical manuals which have to be read, graded, etc. etc. by Monday. There's the poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KAMurph1 Mon Apr 19 00:41:29 2004 From: KAMurph1 (Kay A Murphy) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:41:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging tastes Message-ID: <97C7F70AB8D27C4D80BD795A3F14CE1901354816@mail3.uno.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman Mon Apr 19 07:23:35 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 07:23:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog - a new look Message-ID: <000001c42600$c5719fb0$6501a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: Reading Creeley reading - the values of imperfection J is for Juvenile - a sonnet involving Marianne Moore & Lewis Carroll Jeff Harrison - The value of a spare approach in the retro-avant-garde 26 books on one week's mail - trying to stay current amid the flood of literature Hellboy - New Formalist How to gauge influence? Originality & sources in Kevin Davies Lateral Argument & Jim Behrle's City Point The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Magazine, book, or anthology? The between-ness of the One Shot publication. Writing as giving: A family tradition Trobar Clus: A poetics of total engagement Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind: Charlie Kaufman & the George Romero Poetry Conference http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ * * * My latest book Woundwood is available from Cuneiform Press: http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html From marcus Mon Apr 19 07:34:07 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 07:34:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Having Sex With Granny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <408380EF.13555.3CDC19@localhost> > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > All I'm saying is that if you write about your grandmother, you > need to do something in your poem of interest to excite an > audience that you would not have to do if you had an > unconventional subject matter. I myself don't do unconventional > subject matter, which perhaps is an important reason why I try to > use unconventional poetic devices. > > On 15 Apr 2004 at 22:03, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > I am still waiting for "Having Sex with Granny." Having Sex With Granny This papery brown was once so pink with inner pink I never thought I?d even think that it could shrink to fragile brown as thin as thought. These petals used to be a rose now long unscented and longer dried. O, no one knows where new love goes who has not seen a new rose dried. From marcus Mon Apr 19 07:34:08 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 07:34:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects In-Reply-To: <005101c422aa$2defa000$6401a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <408380F0.30127.3CDDEF@localhost> On 15 Apr 2004 at 1:26, The Old Mole wrote: > We were sittin' around the Nugget Bar, when an old man walked in one > day And we could tell he was a miner, 'cause his eyes were far away. > He said, "Boys, I've made my bundle, and the drinks are all on me, But > I've a family in Kentucky, and two sons I aim to see. ODE TO DUCT TAPE These garlands of pine Will nicely combine With a rope loop to make me look slinky; I've primped and I've plucked But will not use duct Tape tonight dear, it's just too damned kinky. I'll sing and I'll dance To that music from France That you like, though my accent's appalling, And caper and play That particular way You enjoy -- but no duct tape, my darling. My heart starts to pound At the sound you unwound With that vibrating rip subsequently; My knees have grown weak And I find I can't speak While you?re binding my wrists not ungently. Oh, who would have thought That no lovers' knot Was needed since duct tape's invention? This cannot be what Its purpose is, but -- To hell with the maker's intention! From marcus Mon Apr 19 07:57:13 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 07:57:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects In-Reply-To: <00a401c4239b$e7d86c80$42efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <40838659.16726.520195@localhost> The internet, cyberspace, the web, is not new, it seems to me. The most intriguing thing about this medium is the text-ness of it -- the utter reliance on nothing more than the words on the page and how they are put together in order to give or get a sense of personality. What an interesting test of writing ability not to be able to rely on looks and body language and tone of voice, yet still get immediate feedback on the success or failure of the connection. If we can create communities in "the meat world", where, while there are different ways to test the sincerity of what one thinks one is being told, there are also more means of deception available through body language and tone of voice, what's the difference in cyberspace? There are clear tones of voice in writing just as there are in talking. The problem, it seems to me, is that while almost all online can read well enough to infer tones of voice, and thus the putative intention of the writer, there are not so many who can write well enough to create the tone of voice they intend. This, though, is an endemic problem in writing, of course. In any medium there will always be perverse readers who insist one was writing about suicide when one was consciously writing about a cat killing a mouse; not to mention those single-minded readers who choose to see only Jungian archetypes or Marxist economics or Platonic forms no matter where they look. The ancient Greeks invented something close to the cyber world when they colonized, instead of conquered, the Mediterranean. Heraclitus, I think, is among the earliest philosophers who survived -- in 131 fragments. And among the 70 or 80 complete sentences the names of three of his contemporaries, including Pythagoras, are mentioned. How in the dangerous world at the time in a culture spread across 700 small polises (that we think we know the names of) did Heraclitus get to know of other philosophers? From marcus Mon Apr 19 07:57:14 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 07:57:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Stevensian tsunami? In-Reply-To: <1a4.2290d6ae.2db0a4b1@cs.com> Message-ID: <4083865A.22720.5202CC@localhost> On 15 Apr 2004 at 22:53, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > ... There's so much to admire in > Stevens--especially the early Stevens--and so little in the late, all > that philosophical stuff that Vendler has championed through the > years. I love a lot of his work but find much to much of it . . . > precieux, if that's the term. His particular circumstances, like > Marianne Moore's, shaped his poetry, but I think it slipped into > personal mannerism fairly early on (even though his career began > late). To champion him as the great American poet of the century has > always seemed to me a bad mistake. Ironically, Poetry was the greatest > and most consistent venue for his work. Ashbery, of course, has been > identified by many as his chief descendant, and I can see the justice > in that to a degree. If you establish a poetics resolutely founded on > not directly speaking about what's really bugging you, you seem to be > in the misty netherlands of double negativity. Still, one could say > the same thing about Frost and a host of others, now that I think of > it. Isn't there a difference between using a metaphor and using an abstraction? From bobgrumman Mon Apr 19 08:28:34 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 08:28:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging tastes References: <97C7F70AB8D27C4D80BD795A3F14CE1901354816@mail3.uno.edu> Message-ID: <007c01c42609$d6d4fbe0$87efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I just signed up and want to make a few comments. The Heaney poem with "one foot for every year" is "Mid-Term Break," one of my favorites, and one that is slipping away from the anthologies. And what is happening to Wilbur's "Pardon"? And why don't I see Plath's "Black Rook in Rainy Weather," a complex syllabic poem with stanza rhymes, instead of her more sensational pieces? That's about the only Plath poem I really like. Well, certainly the only one of hers in the anthology of poems I admire and think I know although I haven't memorized them that I carry in my mind. But I mainly like it because it's in a tradition from Wordsworth and Shelley through Hardy, Frost and Stevens (and others before and after, I'm sure) of bird as core of existence. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Mon Apr 19 08:43:30 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 05:43:30 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects References: <40838659.16726.520195@localhost> Message-ID: <4083C971.2EDE9638@earthlink.net> Marcus Bales wrote: > > The internet, cyberspace, the web, is not new, it seems to me. The > most intriguing thing about this medium is the text-ness of it -- the > utter reliance on nothing more than the words on the page and how > they are put together in order to give or get a sense of personality. > What an interesting test of writing ability not to be able to rely on > looks and body language and tone of voice, yet still get immediate > feedback on the success or failure of the connection. > > If we can create communities in "the meat world", where, while there > are different ways to test the sincerity of what one thinks one is > being told, there are also more means of deception available through > body language and tone of voice, what's the difference in cyberspace? > There are clear tones of voice in writing just as there are in > talking. The problem, it seems to me, is that while almost all > online can read well enough to infer tones of voice, and thus the > putative intention of the writer, there are not so many who can write > well enough to create the tone of voice they intend. > > This, though, is an endemic problem in writing, of course. In any > medium there will always be perverse readers who insist one was > writing about suicide when one was consciously writing about a cat > killing a mouse; not to mention those single-minded readers who > choose to see only Jungian archetypes or Marxist economics or > Platonic forms no matter where they look. > > The ancient Greeks invented something close to the cyber world when > they colonized, instead of conquered, the Mediterranean. Heraclitus, > I think, is among the earliest philosophers who survived -- in 131 > fragments. And among the 70 or 80 complete sentences the names of > three of his contemporaries, including Pythagoras, are mentioned. > How in the dangerous world at the time in a culture spread across 700 > small polises (that we think we know the names of) did Heraclitus get > to know of other philosophers? > > >From what we know, Heraclitus wrote no books, avoided the market- > place, never married, and never left Ephesus. But the sea was the > ancient cyberspace, and Ephesus was a large, self-sufficient city of > perhaps 30,000 people at the time. But how many ships would dock at > such a city, in the only reliable (and then not very) travelling > months of April to October -- ten? twenty? And how many of these > ships came from, say, Croton, at the other end of the known world, in > Italy, a smaller city of maybe 20,000, where Pythagoras had founded > his school? How many -- one every year, every five years? every > twenty? One single ship during Heraclitus's entire lifetime? And of > the ships that docked, how many of the sailors knew or cared about > Pythagoras? > > Can you imagine it? He had to have been consumed with curiosity; > talking to every sailor on every ship, going from sailor to sailor > asking each of them to ask every other sailor they knew, in any port > they might stop, to ask them to ask other sailors, too, that if any > of them happened to come to Ephesus they might have something, > anything to tell Heraclitus Don't we ask that of everything, either implicitly or explicitly? > -- and that they might carry something of > Heraclitus to such as Pythagoras. > > And Heraclitus, as the ships sailed off, staring after them. Yes, and there's a nascent prose poem here. Drop the question in the penultimate paragraph, then rewrite (condense, especially) the rest so it's consistent with the tone and perspective of the ending. In other words, not as expository prose. - Jim From marcus Mon Apr 19 10:24:05 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 10:24:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English In-Reply-To: <007c01c42609$d6d4fbe0$87efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4083A8C5.25691.D875F0@localhost> Found Poem: Where The Police Are English I want to live where the police are English, the chefs French, the engineers German, the organizers Swiss and the lovers Italian; not where the lovers are Swiss, the organizers Italian, the engineers French, the chefs English, and the police German. From JforJames Mon Apr 19 11:50:29 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:50:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Holman, short reading review Message-ID: <157.32ec6f8f.2db54f45@aol.com> This past Friday night I saw Bob Holman read/perform. at a small space in Middletown CT called The Buttonwood Tree. I'd only seen & heard Holman in bits and pieces over the years, but I was genuinely impressed by his performance as a whole. Into his poetry he worked in bits of song, and even some scat-like noises. He had lots of repetition and incantatory riffing going on, with fits of pure poetry & flights of fancy or surreal turns along the way, but always these "flourishes" stayed tethered to his central theme or subject he was addressing. A number of the poems were homages (he referred to as "praise poems"). I recall one he did for two people: the Nuyorican poet, Pedro Pietri, who died recently, together with Spalding Gray, who apparently committed suicide by drowning himself in the East River. He did a poem for a friend & mentor, Papa Susso, an African poet now living in NYC, I gather. I'm forgeting what African country now... I should have written it down...but this poet's African culture has an epic long poem that is very important to the people and is still carried on through an oral tradition. Bob said he once held up a copy of the Odyssey and asked Papa Susso if his people's poem was as long or longer than this? No response. So Holman persisted, Can't you tell me how long your people's poem is? "Two days," was Papa Susso's answer. (For more Holman http://www.bobholman.com/) Holman is also the founder of The Bowery Poetry Club. (www.bowerypoetry.com) He said this experiment in making a home for spoken word will make it "if the poets drink enough" to keep it in business. So don't forget that if you attend one of the readings or performances there. They often host three shows a night. In the course of his reading, Holman said something that's simple and nicely put: "A poem isn't a poem until it is read." Or maybe it was "A poem doesn't exist until it is read." Anyway, during his reading he quoted some from Walter Ong's book _Orality and Literature_, which he said was important book for him, and he reminded the audience that "reading" first meant "reading aloud." **** (four stars) Finnegan From anny.ballardini Mon Apr 19 12:17:07 2004 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:17:07 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Holman, short reading review References: <157.32ec6f8f.2db54f45@aol.com> Message-ID: <007201c42629$c3f11d90$c2607550@yourpk9x5fuc06> Thank you for this, I can easily imagine you were taken by someone like Bob Holman. They work hard there at the Bowery Poetry Club, I regularly receive their newsletter. I wonder how Holman is still fresh after all what he might have to go through having made of Poetry a buzinezz. Till later, Anny Ballardini http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome The trouble with our times is that the future is not what it used to be - Paul Valery From: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 5:50 PM > This past Friday night I saw Bob Holman read/perform. > at a small space in Middletown CT called The Buttonwood Tree. > > I'd only seen & heard Holman in bits and pieces over the years, > but I was genuinely impressed by his performance as a whole. > Into his poetry he worked in bits of song, and even some scat-like > noises. He had lots of repetition and incantatory riffing going on, with > fits of pure poetry & flights of fancy or surreal turns along the way, > but always these "flourishes" stayed tethered to his central theme > or subject he was addressing. A number of the poems were homages > (he referred to as "praise poems"). I recall one he did for two people: > the Nuyorican poet, Pedro Pietri, who died recently, together with > Spalding Gray, who apparently committed suicide by drowning himself > in the East River. > > He did a poem for a friend & mentor, Papa Susso, an African poet > now living in NYC, I gather. I'm forgeting what African country now... > I should have written it down...but this poet's African culture > has an epic long poem that is very important to the people > and is still carried on through an oral tradition. Bob said he once > held up a copy of the Odyssey and asked Papa Susso if his > people's poem was as long or longer than this? No response. > So Holman persisted, Can't you tell me how long your people's > poem is? "Two days," was Papa Susso's answer. > > (For more Holman http://www.bobholman.com/) > > Holman is also the founder of The Bowery Poetry Club. > (www.bowerypoetry.com) He said this experiment in making a home > for spoken word will make it "if the poets drink enough" to keep it in > business. So don't forget that if you attend one of the readings or > performances there. They often host three shows a night. > > In the course of his reading, Holman said something that's simple and > nicely put: "A poem isn't a poem until it is read." Or maybe it was > "A poem doesn't exist until it is read." Anyway, during his reading he > quoted some from Walter Ong's book _Orality and Literature_, which > he said was important book for him, and he reminded the audience that > "reading" first meant "reading aloud." > **** (four stars) > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Mon Apr 19 13:33:16 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:33:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens: supreme acrobat of the imagination Message-ID: Subj: Wallace Stevens Date: 4/9/04 9:32:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (Knopf Poetry) This poem is from the Everyman?s Library Pocket Poets anthology WALLACE STEVENS. Stevens (1879-1955) was one of the great American modernists and a supreme acrobat of the imagination. *************************************** The House Was Quiet and the World Was Calm The house was quiet and the world was calm. The reader became the book; and summer night Was like the conscious being of the book. The house was quiet and the world was calm. The words were spoken as if there was no book, Except that the reader leaned above the page, Wanted to lean, wanted much most to be The scholar to whom his book is true, to whom The summer night is like a perfection of thought. The house was quiet because it had to be. The quiet was part of the meaning, part of the mind: The access of perfection to the page. And the world was calm. The truth in a calm world, In which there is no other meaning, itself Is calm, itself is summer and night, itself Is the reader leaning late and reading there. *************************************** From JforJames Mon Apr 19 16:44:48 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 16:44:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Verlaine, Stevens & Crane Message-ID: Verlaine, Stevens & Crane, dramatic readings w/ visuals http://www.thelarkascending.org/TLA2_Pages/Gallery.html Stevens here... http://www.thelarkascending.org/TLA2_BoB/BoBbgd.html From cc Mon Apr 19 17:36:44 2004 From: cc (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:36:44 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Msgs to Marcus & Finnegan In-Reply-To: <200404191601.i3JG16XE018550@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Marcus, I like your Heraclitus piece. And a found poem--from someone who objected so entirely (as I recall) to Marcel Duchamp--amazing! > From: "Marcus Bales" > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dull Subjects > > The internet, cyberspace, the web, is not new, it seems to me. The > Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English > Found Poem: Where The Police Are English =========== And thanks to Finnegan for the piece on Holman and the Bowery club. I'm collecting good poetry places to visit this summer as I drive cross-country from Santa Barbara to Bath Maine. Love to hear if others have new-po places to visit along the way. More about that later... > From: JforJames at aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Holman, short reading review > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > This past Friday night I saw Bob Holman read/perform. > at a small space in Middletown CT called The Buttonwood Tree. From men2 Mon Apr 19 11:53:41 2004 From: men2 (Millie Niss on eathlink) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:53:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4083A8C5.25691.D875F0@localhost> Message-ID: <00b101c42660$67b53020$2b2c9d04@ibmfb1014a> what was the source for this? BTW, I know a lot of French engineers (having lived in France) and they are usually quite smart because you have to do extremely difficult competetive exams to get into engineering school. But admittedly, they are a bit weak on the engineering... A friend of mine who was in the best school in the country -- Polytechnique -- used his time there to study Greek. But he did get a good job as an engineer at Shell after he graduated (I think he had to study at a less prestigious engineering school for a while after Polytechnique, though, so he'd actually know some engineering...) Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 10:24 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English > Found Poem: Where The Police Are English > > I want to live where the police > are English, the chefs > French, the engineers > German, the organizers > Swiss and the lovers > Italian; > not where the lovers > are Swiss, the organizers > Italian, the engineers > French, the chefs > English, and the police > German. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Tue Apr 20 00:01:25 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:01:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Aging tastes In-Reply-To: <97C7F70AB8D27C4D80BD795A3F14CE1901354816@mail3.uno.edu> Message-ID: on 4/18/04 11:41 PM, Kay A Murphy at KAMurph1 at uno.edu wrote: I just signed up and want to make a few comments. The Heaney poem with "one foot for every year" is "Mid-Term Break," one of my favorites, and one that is slipping away from the anthologies. And what is happening to Wilbur's "Pardon"? And why don't I see Plath's "Black Rook in Rainy Weather," a complex syllabic poem with stanza rhymes, instead of her more sensational pieces? Yet, without reading the "sensationalists," such as Margaret Atwood, when I first began to find poetry outside of the classroom, I don't think I would have been able to appreciate more subtle forms. I learned how to open a poem dramatically by reading Donne, how to make formal closure in an other wise "free verse" poem from Ellen Bryant Voigt, how to break lines emphatically from early Kinnell, how not to reveal my son and daughter from Olds, and how to title a poem from James Wright. The one poet I have read as soon as her next book comes out is Louise Gluck, even if it is hardback and cash is short. I admire a poet who is not afraid to change voices and styles over the years. I have always loved Stevens; it helped that I worked with Michael Ryan, who helped me appreciate Steven's "music." As for Ashbery, I might be able to read him if I think of him as Wallace Stevens. enough Peace Kay M ---------------------------------------- Welcome, Kay. That's a lovely summary of the complexity & evolution of taste. On titling a poem, I thought immediately of my favorite James Wright poem (I like it more than the heavily anthologized "A Blessing"): As I Step Over A Puddle At The End Of Winter, I Think Of An Ancient Chinese Governor *And how can I, born in evil days And fresh from failure, ask a kindness of Fate?* -- Written A.D. 819 Po Chu-i, balding old politician, What's the use? I think of you, Uneasily entering the gorges of the Yang-Tze, When you were being towed up the rapids Toward some political job or other In the city of Chungshou. You made it, I guess, By dark. But it is 1960, it is almost spring again, And the tall rocks of Minneapolis Build me my own black twilight Of bamboo ropes and waters. Where is Yuan Chen, the friend you loved? Where is the sea, that once solved the whole loneliness Of the Midwest?Where is Minneapolis? I can see nothing But the great terrible oak tree darkening with winter. Did you find the city of isolated men beyond mountains? Or have you been holding the end of a frayed rope For a thousand years? --James Wright ---------- I'd be interested in hearing from others, too, about which poets are on your personal "read as soon as the next book comes out" list. My own must-reads would include Ellen Voigt, in fact, along with a small handful of others: Philip Levine, Seamus Heaney, Brendan Galvin, Marianne Boruch, Robert Morgan. . . others I'll think of as soon as I hit Send. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at vbe.com grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd Tue Apr 20 00:44:00 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:44:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: If you haven't yet seen the POETRY issue in which Dana Gioia and August Kleinzahler differ vividly about Garrison Keillor's *Good Poems*, now you can read it online, thanks to the folks at Poetry Daily: http://www.poems.com/essakeil.htm ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 20 01:38:54 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 01:38:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <1e0.1e3b195a.2db6116e@cs.com> In a message dated 4/19/2004 11:43:54 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > If you haven't yet seen the POETRY issue in which Dana Gioia and August > Kleinzahler differ vividly about Garrison Keillor's *Good Poems*, now you > can read it online, thanks to the folks at Poetry Daily: > > http://www.poems.com/essakeil.htm Thanks for posting this. My subscription to Poetry lapsed, and I hadn't seen it yet. Oddly, a large part of what Kleinzahler says sounds like a rehash of "Can Poetry Matter?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 20 04:00:49 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:00:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4083A8C5.25691.D875F0@localhost> <00b101c42660$67b53020$2b2c9d04@ibmfb1014a> Message-ID: <003d01c426ad$98804f80$379f9951@MyPC> From: "Millie Niss on eathlink" > what was the source for this? It's (from) a traditional joke: Heaven or Hell? Heaven is where the Chefs are French The Police are British the Mechanics are German the Lovers Italian and it's all organized by the Swiss Hell is where the Chefs are British The Police are German the Mechanics are French the Lovers are Swiss and it's all organized by the Italians. http://www.fgg.uni-lj.si/~/mkuhar/Vici/angl_vici.html Robin Hamilton > > Found Poem: Where The Police Are English> >> > I want to live where the police> > are English, the chefs> > French, the engineers> > German, the organizers> > Swiss and the lovers> > Italian;> > not where the lovers> > are Swiss, the organizers> > Italian, the engineers> > French, the chefs> > English, and the police> > German.> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > New-Poetry mailing list> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> > _______________________________________________> New-Poetry mailing list> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry> From tadrichards Tue Apr 20 05:02:44 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 05:02:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: Message-ID: <002101c426b6$3f9f14b0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Well, one thing I got from both of them is that everything one despises (in G's case, everything that K stands for; in K's, everything that G stands for) can be traced back to you and me, David. Funny how that works out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler > If you haven't yet seen the POETRY issue in which Dana Gioia and August > Kleinzahler differ vividly about Garrison Keillor's *Good Poems*, now you > can read it online, thanks to the folks at Poetry Daily: > > http://www.poems.com/essakeil.htm > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mastersonmikej Tue Apr 20 06:34:17 2004 From: mastersonmikej (Mike Masterson) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Submitted poem for post Message-ID: <20040420103417.73050.qmail@web60302.mail.yahoo.com> Writers Block Bastard quill. Cracked vellum eight by ten. Ever on the cusp. The soil damp readied for seed. Alas the eleventh hour. No Pulitzer this day. Ah, but on the morrow. Michael Masterson MastersonMikeJ at yahoo.ca --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 06:43:04 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:43:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: Message-ID: <00a001c426c4$4415a050$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > If you haven't yet seen the POETRY issue in which Dana Gioia and August > Kleinzahler differ vividly about Garrison Keillor's *Good Poems*, now you > can read it online, thanks to the folks at Poetry Daily: > > http://www.poems.com/essakeil.htm Good show. I tried to buy a copy of POETRY at Books-a-Million yesterday. No copy available. Probably sold out because I've seen it on sale there before and it's just the kind of thing they'd have. I found GOOD POEMS but decided against buying it. It was much thicker than I thought it would be, and much more conventional. It isn't a wide selection of "accessible" poems not easy to find otherwise as I thought but just a hack collection of the standards with a sprinkling of "accessible" poems added. Even Stevens has at least one poem, and "e. e. cummings," though I'm sure not one of his one using some interesting technique, unless it's "buffalo bill." $15. Thanks for passing on this information, David. Too bad they don't also post Wiman's editorial, which is part of the same schmear. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 06:49:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:49:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <002101c426b6$3f9f14b0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <00d901c426c5$19298220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Well, one thing I got from both of them is that everything one despises (in > G's case, everything that K stands for; in K's, everything that G stands > for) can be traced back to you and me, David. Funny how that works out. --The Old Mole I haven't read the pieces yet but am sure they're going to make me think of their authors as just two poetry equivalents of republicrats. (In politics people can't understand why I see no significant differences between the Republicans and the Democrats the same way so many at New-Poetry can't understand why I see no significant differences between all the poets writing what I call Iowa Workshop poetry. I do think there are significant differences between the poetry of Wilbur and Ashbery, just that they pale next to the differences between maintstream poetry and burstnorm poetry.) --Bob G. From Thom424 Tue Apr 20 06:49:48 2004 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:49:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings' poem in &good poems* Message-ID: <77.273e0f36.2db65a4c@aol.com> the cummings poem anthologized in gk's *good poems* is "since feeling is first" thom tammaro moorhead, mn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Tue Apr 20 07:36:54 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:36:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English In-Reply-To: <00b101c42660$67b53020$2b2c9d04@ibmfb1014a> Message-ID: <4084D316.1275.883A8@localhost> On 19 Apr 2004 at 11:53, Millie Niss on eathlink wrote: > what was the source for this?< FOTI -- Found On The Internet From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 20 08:11:02 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:11:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4084D316.1275.883A8@localhost> Message-ID: <005901c426d0$8cafa1b0$379f9951@MyPC> > On 19 Apr 2004 at 11:53, Millie Niss on eathlink wrote: > > what was the source for this?< > > FOTI -- Found On The Internet I think it predates the Net, Marcus (though I wouldn't swear to this, as I dunno just *when* it originated -- post WWII?). It's a variant of the Englishman, the Scotsman, and the Irishman joke(s), and others suchlike. Shame there isn't a standard indexing of jokes in the way there is -- Funk-Wagnel? -- for folklore motifs. Robin ("What do you mean, 'us', white man?" quoth Tonto.) From grahamd Tue Apr 20 08:24:12 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:24:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: <00d901c426c5$19298220$74efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/20/04 5:49 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > I haven't read the pieces yet but am sure ... Need one say more? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From marcus Tue Apr 20 09:17:42 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:17:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English In-Reply-To: <005901c426d0$8cafa1b0$379f9951@MyPC> Message-ID: <4084EAB6.32519.64CB28@localhost> > > On 19 Apr 2004 at 11:53, Millie Niss on eathlink wrote: > > > what was the source for this?< > > > > FOTI -- Found On The Internet On 20 Apr 2004 at 13:11, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I think it predates the Net, Marcus (though I wouldn't swear to this, > as I dunno just *when* it originated -- post WWII?). > It's a variant of the Englishman, the Scotsman, and the Irishman > joke(s), and others suchlike. > Shame there isn't a standard indexing of jokes in the way there is -- > Funk-Wagnel? -- for folklore motifs. > ("What do you mean, 'us', white man?" quoth Tonto.) As Tonto's uncle said to the Lone Ranger when they were out on the Great Plains walking back to camp after looking at the stars one night, "Look out, Lone Ranger -- don't step in that kemo sabe!" From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 20 09:32:50 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:32:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4084EAB6.32519.64CB28@localhost> Message-ID: <00a801c426db$f9d95640$379f9951@MyPC> > As Tonto's uncle said to the Lone Ranger when they were out on the > Great Plains walking back to camp after looking at the stars one > night, "Look out, Lone Ranger -- don't step in that kemo sabe!" If we're into Lone Ranger and Tonto jokes, Marcus, here's one of my favourites. ***** The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert, set up their tent, and are asleep. Some hours later, The Lone Ranger wakes his faithful friend. "Tonto, look up at the sky and tell me what you see? Tonto replies, "Me see millions of stars." "What does that tell you?" asks The Lone Ranger. Tonto ponders for a minute. "Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three. Theologically, it's evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What it tell you, Kemo Sabi?" The Lone Ranger is silent for a moment, then speaks. "Tonto, you dumb injun, someone has stolen our tent." ***** ... there's an (ongoing?) argument as to whether "Kemo Sabi" derives from the barrio-Spanish of one of the original scriptwriters of the series, or Amerindian. Robin From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 20 09:41:01 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:41:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <14.27530d1d.2db6826d@cs.com> In a message dated 4/20/2004 7:23:59 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > on 4/20/04 5:49 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > > >I haven't read the pieces yet but am sure ... > > Need one say more? Bob Grumman, master of the a priori school of debate . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus Tue Apr 20 09:44:40 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:44:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English In-Reply-To: <00a801c426db$f9d95640$379f9951@MyPC> Message-ID: <4084F108.30672.7D7F36@localhost> > > As Tonto's uncle said to the Lone Ranger when they were out on the > > Great Plains walking back to camp after looking at the stars one > > night, "Look out, Lone Ranger -- don't step in that kemo sabe!" On 20 Apr 2004 at 14:32, Robin Hamilton wrote: > If we're into Lone Ranger and Tonto jokes, Marcus, here's one of my > favourites. > The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert, set up their > tent, and are asleep. > Some hours later, The Lone Ranger wakes his faithful friend. > "Tonto, look up at the sky and tell me what you see? > Tonto replies, "Me see millions of stars." > "What does that tell you?" asks The Lone Ranger. > Tonto ponders for a minute. "Astronomically speaking, it tells me that > there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. > Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it > appears to be approximately a quarter past three. Theologically, it's > evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small and insignificant. > Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What > it tell you, Kemo Sabi?" > The Lone Ranger is silent for a moment, then speaks. > "Tonto, you dumb injun, someone has stolen our tent." First, it would be a lot funnier without the "Tonto you dumb injun" part, which is so completely unnecessary that it actually telegraphs the punchline. Second, that was the world's funniest joke a couple years ago when told about Sherlock Holmes and Watson: http://www.nature.com/nsu/011227/011227-1.html From FanwoodJEL Tue Apr 20 09:52:49 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:52:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <1e2.1e4106eb.2db68531@aol.com> In a message dated 4/20/2004 6:50:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > (In politics > people can't understand why I see no significant differences between the > Republicans and the Democrats the same way so many at New-Poetry can't > understand why I see no significant differences between all the poets > writing what I call Iowa Workshop poetry. Quick, who is more likely to write Iowa Workshop poetry, a Republican or a Democrat? Jeffrey L. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 20 10:56:06 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:56:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4084F108.30672.7D7F36@localhost> Message-ID: <001001c426e7$ba6be2f0$379f9951@MyPC> > First, it would be a lot funnier without the "Tonto you dumb injun" > part, which is so completely unnecessary that it actually telegraphs > the punchline. I don't get this Marcus -- it doesn't telegraph the punch-line, it *is* the punchline. Admittedly, this punch-line (by the time it comes) is perhaps too implicit in what has gone before, but that's a different kettle of salmon. Or am I being a dumb Scot? Robin From jnewberry1974 Tue Apr 20 11:00:21 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: <1e2.1e4106eb.2db68531@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040420150021.65965.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> Or--who is more likely to write a burstnorm poem, a Liberterian or an Independent? Jeff Newberry --- FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/20/2004 6:50:01 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > > > (In politics > > people can't understand why I see no significant > differences between the > > Republicans and the Democrats the same way so many > at New-Poetry can't > > understand why I see no significant differences > between all the poets > > writing what I call Iowa Workshop poetry. > > Quick, who is more likely to write Iowa Workshop > poetry, a Republican or a > Democrat? > > Jeffrey L. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 20 11:02:32 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:02:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4084F108.30672.7D7F36@localhost> Message-ID: <001101c426e8$8af69320$379f9951@MyPC> Marcus: > Second, that was the world's funniest joke a couple years ago when > told about Sherlock Holmes and Watson: > http://www.nature.com/nsu/011227/011227-1.html I think the Holmes/Watson version is a rip from the Lone Ranger / Tonto version. google hits: <> 2420 <> 1160 ... so at this point in time [20/4/04], the Holmes/Watson version seems more widespread than the Lone Ranger/Tonto version. From marcus Tue Apr 20 11:06:22 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:06:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English In-Reply-To: <001001c426e7$ba6be2f0$379f9951@MyPC> Message-ID: <4085042E.3273.C8492E@localhost> > > First, it would be a lot funnier without the "Tonto you dumb injun" > > part, which is so completely unnecessary that it actually telegraphs > > the punchline. On 20 Apr 2004 at 15:56, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I don't get this Marcus -- it doesn't telegraph the punch-line, it > *is* the punchline. I think "Someone stole our tent!" is the punchline. The name-calling is gratuitous in the first place, and unnecessary in the second. It's just a lot funnier, it seems to me, to leave out the imprecation in order to get to the punchline without the telegraphing "you dumb" or "you idiot" From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 20 11:24:25 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:24:25 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4084F108.30672.7D7F36@localhost> Message-ID: <001b01c426eb$92e9c360$379f9951@MyPC> Sorry, this got away before i had time to finish ... *** Marcus: > Second, that was the world's funniest joke a couple years ago when > told about Sherlock Holmes and Watson: > http://www.nature.com/nsu/011227/011227-1.html I think the Holmes/Watson version is a rip from the Lone Ranger / Tonto version. google hits: <> 2420 <> 1160 ... so at this point in time [20/4/04], the Holmes/Watson version seems more widespread than the Lone Ranger/Tonto version. I'm virtually certain that the LR/T version is the original -- the ironic contrast between the dumb injun and the register Tonto uses in describing the stars is lost in the Holmes/Watson version, which frankly, whichever has priority, is much the weaker of the two versions. (And yes, Marcus, I didn't know the Holmes/Watson version before you posted the URL to it.) Marcus implies that the Holmes/Watson is "a couple years [old]", so all we need is a lock to LR/Tonto that goes back at least ten years. I'm sure this exists, and I'm equally sure that I could dig it out tracking the 3580 google hits, but surely *someone* on the list heard this joke lo these many years ago and can spare me the misdirected time and effort it would take to scratch this trivial itch. Robin google hits: <> 3980 <> 1990 <> 53 There seems to be a lot of blah in the 53 overlap hits, but if you cut through it, no one sources the Holmes/Watson version before 2000. Mind you, equally, no one sources the Lone Ranger / Tonto version either. Robin From robin.hamilton2 Tue Apr 20 11:31:00 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:31:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English References: <4085042E.3273.C8492E@localhost> Message-ID: <002701c426ec$7ec7b0d0$379f9951@MyPC> > I think "Someone stole our tent!" is the punchline. Ooops, yeah, you're right -- sorry Marcus. > The name-calling > is gratuitous in the first place, and unnecessary in the second. I'm not so sure, here -- it underlines the contrast between Tonto's register and how the LR describes him. > It's > just a lot funnier, it seems to me, to leave out the imprecation in > order to get to the punchline without the telegraphing "you dumb" or > "you idiot" Fair does, but my fading memory (as opposed to the Internet) has it that "dumb injun" is in the earliest versions. Robin Another spin is that it's a Don Quixote / Sancho Panza joke, with a reverse in that Tonto and Sancho (and Watson) are supposed to be the voices of common-sense, which the joke (in both the H-W and LR-T versions) inverts. Both versions depend on a background context. ENOUGH!!!! Deconstructing jokes has to be the ultimate in geekery. Robin From marcus Tue Apr 20 11:38:14 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:38:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Where The Police Are English In-Reply-To: <001b01c426eb$92e9c360$379f9951@MyPC> Message-ID: <40850BA6.28309.E5757F@localhost> > I think the Holmes/Watson version is a rip from the Lone Ranger / > Tonto version. > google hits: > <> 2420 > <> 1160 > ... so at this point in time [20/4/04], the Holmes/Watson version > seems more widespread than the Lone Ranger/Tonto version. > I'm virtually certain that the LR/T version is the original -- the > ironic contrast between the dumb injun and the register Tonto uses in > describing the stars is lost in the Holmes/Watson version, which > frankly, whichever has priority, is much the weaker of the two > versions. > (And yes, Marcus, I didn't know the Holmes/Watson version before you > posted the URL to it.) > Marcus implies that the Holmes/Watson is "a couple years [old]", so > all we need is a lock to LR/Tonto that goes back at least ten years. Well, the only version I know it in is the Holmes/Watson version because a couple years ago it was touted as the world's funniest joke. I didn't agree, but that's neither here nor there. Nor do I imply that the joke itself is only a couple years old -- it's election as world's funniest joke is a couple years old. And finally, I agree that the LR/T version is funnier because of the disparity between Tonto's ordinary discourse and his summary of the meaning of the stars -- but I still disagree that "You dumb Injun" adds anything. Marcus From JforJames Tue Apr 20 11:39:57 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:39:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <28.46594c0b.2db69e4d@aol.com> In a message dated 4/20/04 12:43:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: >If you haven't yet seen the POETRY issue in which Dana Gioia and August > Kleinzahler differ vividly about Garrison Keillor's *Good Poems*, now you > can read it online, thanks to the folks at Poetry Daily: > > http://www.poems.com/essakeil.htm David, thanks for point to the URL?I read these two pieces a week ago and was waiting for some time to type out some quotes and responses to Kleinzahler's views. You saved me many keystrokes. Kleinzahler's piece reminds me of a particularly elitist take on National Poetry Month that Richard Howard published some years ago in Harpers (I think it was?). Kleinzahler is full of himself and full of "hog farm waste"? It is difficult to get the news from poems yet men die miserably every day for lack of what is found there. Kleinzahler : A pretty sentiment, to be sure, but simply untrue, as anyone who has been to the supermarket or ballpark recently will concede. Ninety percent of adult Americans can pass through this life tolerably well, if not content, eating, defecating, copulating, shopping, working, catching the latest Disney blockbuster, without having a poem read to them by Garrison Keillor or anyone else. JF--This is either an oddly literal or simply deliberate misreading of the Williams' poem?certainly WCW wasn't speaking of death per se, but rather a spiritual loss of whatever it is that makes life worth living?a loss of that part of one's life that is capable of yearning for something beyond mere day-to-day existence. K: It doesn't really matter. Keillor embalms whatever poem he reads within the burnished caul of his delivery, a voice one friend of mine describes as "probably taken out at day's end and left to stand all night in a glass of bourbon." JF--Kleizahler even criticizes the quality of Keillor's voice? certainly there must be some personal history here. Did these two guys go high school together and date the same girl or something? K: Let me put it starkly: the better animals in the jungle aren't drawn to poetry anymore, and they're certainly not tuned in to Keillor's Writer's Almanac. Just as the new genre of the novel drew off most of the brilliant young writers of the nineteenth century, movies, television, MTV, advertising, rock 'n' roll, and the internet have taken the best among the recent crop of young talent. Do you suppose for a moment that a spirited youngster with a brilliant, original mind and gifted up the yin-yang is going to sit still for two years of creative writing poetry workshops presided over by a dispirited, compromised mediocrity, all the while critiquing and being critiqued by younger versions of the same? JF--I think poetry is going attract those it is going to attract. There is certainly no need to mount a recruiting drive to attract the best & the brightest (though I doubt the best are as swayed by the Zeitgeist or cultural phenomena as Kleinzahler imagines). The strength of poetry will never be sexy or fame-inducing or immensely remunerative. In several places in the piece Kleinzahler invokes the old paranoia about the 'MFA Matrix'. Kleinzahler, playing the role of Morpheus, inveighing against the body-snatching and brainwashing of America's youth for purposes of manufacturing ersatz poets. K: Are we not yet adult enough as a culture to acknowledge that the arts are not for everyone, and that bad art is worse than no art at all; and that good or bad, art's exclusive function is to entertain, not to improve or nourish or console, simply entertain. And in this, Moby Dick or Bach's "Well-Tempered Clavier" are not different than the movie Cat in the Hat or Britney Spears wiggling her behind on stage; the former being more complexly entertaining and satisfying, but only for those who can appreciate the difference, and they are the minority. JF--Here Kleinzahler contradicts himself?so movies and world of entertainment aren't all that attractive to the elite, & yet the best & the brightest of our youth are drawn away from poetry to these other cultural phenomena??And K knows the difference between good and bad art is?but common folk of whom he earlier professed so much faith, they presumably don't? K: In America, usefulness is indissolubly wed to profit, increased capital. Poetry is no exception. It is worth reflecting during National Poetry Month that creative writing, over the past forty years, has subsumed American poetry and become a 250-million-dollar industry, a rather seamy industry, and an off-shoot of the rather seamy Human Potential Movement industry. JF--So poetry has wide appeal after all?otherwise how has a 250 million industry has grown up around it?, but wait, all is not well? K: Poetry is seldom, if ever, reviewed in mainstream journals like the New York Times, the New Yorker, Harper's, the Atlantic Monthly, and when it is reviewed at all, it is reviewed in a cursory or inept manner. -&- K: I, for one, have never in my lifetime seen the situation of poetry in this country more dire or desperate. Nor is the future promising. Cultural and economic forces only suggest further devastation of any sort of vital literary culture, along with the prospects of the very, very few - it is always only a very few - poets who will matter down the road. What little of real originality is out there is drowning in the waste products spewing from graduate writing programs like the hog farm waste that recently overflowed its holding tanks in the wake of Hurricane Isabel, fouling the Carolina countryside and poisoning everything in its path. JF--Omigod, it's the end of the world as we know it?Run, run away! Finnegan From JforJames Tue Apr 20 11:52:02 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:52:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <97.46d45ba8.2db6a122@aol.com> In a message dated 4/20/04 11:41:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: oops, my email cut & paste elided all my ellipses-- > David, thanks for point to the URL...I read these two pieces > a week ago and was waiting for some time to type out some > quotes and responses to Kleinzahler's views. You saved me > many keystrokes. Kleinzahler's piece reminds me of a particularly > elitist take on National Poetry Month that Richard Howard > published some years ago in Harpers (I think it was?). > Kleinzahler is full of himself and full of "hog farm waste" > > > > It is difficult > to get the news from poems > yet men die miserably every day > for lack > of what is found there. > > Kleinzahler : A pretty sentiment, to be sure, but simply untrue, > as anyone who has been to the supermarket or ballpark recently > will concede. Ninety percent of adult Americans can pass through > this life tolerably well, if not content, eating, defecating, copulating, > shopping, working, catching the latest Disney blockbuster, without > having a poem read to them by Garrison Keillor or anyone else. > > JF--This is either an oddly literal or simply deliberate misreading > of the Williams' poem...certainly WCW wasn't speaking of death > per se, but rather a spiritual loss of whatever it is that makes life > worth living...a loss of that part of one's life that is capable of > yearning for something beyond mere day-to-day existence. > > K: It doesn't really matter. Keillor embalms whatever poem he > reads within the burnished caul of his delivery, a voice one friend > of mine describes as "probably taken out at day's end and left > to stand all night in a glass of bourbon." > > JF--Kleizahler even criticizes the quality of Keillor's voice... > certainly there must be some personal history here. Did these > two guys go high school together and date the same girl or something? > > K: Let me put it starkly: the better animals in the jungle > aren't drawn to poetry anymore, and they're certainly not > tuned in to Keillor's Writer's Almanac. Just as the new genre > of the novel drew off most of the brilliant young writers of the > nineteenth century, movies, television, MTV, advertising, > rock 'n' roll, and the internet have taken the best among > the recent crop of young talent. Do you suppose for a > moment that a spirited youngster with a brilliant, original > mind and gifted up the yin-yang is going to sit still for two > years of creative writing poetry workshops presided over > by a dispirited, compromised mediocrity, all the while > critiquing and being critiqued by younger versions of the same? > > JF--I think poetry is going attract those it is going to attract. > There is certainly no need to mount a recruiting drive to attract > the best & the brightest (though I doubt the best are as swayed > by the Zeitgeist or cultural phenomena as Kleinzahler imagines). > The strength of poetry will never be sexy or fame-inducing or > immensely remunerative. In several places in the piece Kleinzahler > invokes the old paranoia about the 'MFA Matrix'. Kleinzahler, > playing the role of Morpheus, inveighing against the body-snatching > and brainwashing of America's youth for purposes of manufacturing > ersatz poets. > > K: Are we not yet adult enough as a culture to acknowledge > that the arts are not for everyone, and that bad art is worse than > no art at all; and that good or bad, art's exclusive function is to > entertain, not to improve or nourish or console, simply entertain. > And in this, Moby Dick or Bach's "Well-Tempered Clavier" are not > different than the movie Cat in the Hat or Britney Spears wiggling > her behind on stage; the former being more complexly entertaining > and satisfying, but only for those who can appreciate the difference, > and they are the minority. > > JF--Here Kleinzahler contradicts himself...so movies and world of > entertainment aren't all that attractive to the elite, & yet the best & > the brightest of our youth are drawn away from poetry to these other > cultural phenomena?And K knows the difference between good > and bad art is...but common folk of whom he earlier professed so > much faith, they presumably don't? > > K: In America, usefulness is indissolubly wed to profit, increased > capital. Poetry is no exception. It is worth reflecting during National > Poetry Month that creative writing, over the past forty years, has > subsumed American poetry and become a 250-million-dollar industry, > a rather seamy industry, and an off-shoot of the rather seamy Human > Potential Movement industry. > > JF--So poetry has wide appeal after all...otherwise how has a 250 million > industry has grown up around it?,...but wait, all is not well... > > K: Poetry is seldom, if ever, reviewed in mainstream journals like > the New York Times, the New Yorker, Harper's, the Atlantic Monthly, > and when it is reviewed at all, it is reviewed in a cursory or inept > manner. > -&- > K: I, for one, have never in my lifetime seen the situation of poetry > in this country more dire or desperate. Nor is the future promising. > Cultural and economic forces only suggest further devastation of > any sort of vital literary culture, along with the prospects of the very, > very few - it is always only a very few - poets who will matter down > the road. What little of real originality is out there is drowning in the > waste products spewing from graduate writing programs like the hog > farm waste that recently overflowed its holding tanks in the wake > of Hurricane Isabel, fouling the Carolina countryside and poisoning > everything in its path. > > JF--Omigod, it's the end of the world as we know it...Run, run away! > > Finnegan That's a little better. From mandolin Tue Apr 20 12:27:49 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:27:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <16581946.1082478469867.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 11:52AM, wrote: On the money James. And, as someone else already remarked, doesn't this bit sound like Gioia's original "Can Poetry Matter"? > K: Poetry is seldom, if ever, reviewed in mainstream journals like > the New York Times, the New Yorker, Harper's, the Atlantic Monthly, > and when it is reviewed at all, it is reviewed in a cursory or inept > manner. > -&- And how does he reconcile his belief that poetry is a form of entertainment (the one notion from his "review" which I wholeheartedly endorse) with his contempt for what people find entertaining? ----- Sent from webmail, so I'm not at my computer. http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501/ for the Sonnetarium From GrahamD Tue Apr 20 12:45:44 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:45:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2A4@mail.ripon.edu> > ---------- > From: Bob Grumman > I found GOOD POEMS but > decided against buying it. It was much thicker than I thought it would > be, > and much more conventional. It isn't a wide selection of "accessible" > poems > not easy to find otherwise as I thought but just a hack collection of the > standards with a sprinkling of "accessible" poems added. > > --Bob G. ----------------- Well, I can't supply any remedy for the book's thickness, I admit. It certainly is thick. And its conventionality & accessibility are not really in question; they are the subject not only of Gioia's and Kleinzahler's reviews, but also of Keillor's own introduction. But about the book's inclusions and exclusions, it seems from my vantage point that the above characterization is almost hilariously wrong. By way of contrast, here is Gioia's take on the anthology's selections. It has the advantage of being written by someone who has read the book. "Keillor's book has an admirable mix of familiar and unfamiliar poems. The classic shortcoming of anthologies is that they habitually reprint the same poems from the same poets. This tendency may seem difficult to avoid in historical collections. One, after all, expects to find "Lycidas" and "To His Coy Mistress" in an anthology of seventeenth-century English verse. But predictability has become a great limitation in anthologies of modern poetry. It often seems that some anthologies, especially textbooks, are compiled almost entirely from other anthologies. I suspect many of them are. What greatly impresses me about the contents of Good Poems is the quality, freshness, and diversity of the work included. The book is full of discoveries. I have never, for instance, seen reprinted either W. H. Auden's wonderfully wicked "At Last the Secret Is Out," or his "Ode to the Medieval Poets." The same can be said for Donald Justice's "The Pupil," a poignant description of childhood piano lessons, Howard Moss's wistful "Shorelines," David Wagoner's "Lost" (which I remember clipping out of a magazine thirty years ago), or May Swenson's knock-out travel poem, "Bison Crossing Near Mt. Rushmore," . . . . But what impresses me most about Good Poems is the intelligent inclusion of neglected writers. How nice in a book that includes Gerard Manley Hopkins, Emily Dickinson, and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow to find Gerald Locklin, Kay Ryan, Vassar Miller, Tom Disch, Edward Field, Anne Porter, Robert Phillips, and Joseph Stroud. A perfect example of Keillor's generous independence from the modern poetry Top-Forty playlist is his obvious fondness for May Sarton. Not a major poet or a stylistic innovator, Sarton cultivated the intimate personal lyric. Her verse often seemed slightly old-fashioned, reminiscent of poets like Elinor Wylie or Sara Teasdale from an earlier generation, especially when she wrote in form. Sarton was the sort of poet who, despite the popularity of her memoirs and novels, rarely made it into the anthologies. Yet there is something genuinely moving about her best poems. Keillor obviously agrees. He includes four of her lovely human-scale lyrics. Among women poets only the unbeatable Dickinson (eight poems) and the often neglected but worthy Lisel Mueller (six poems) get more entries. Bishop gets three poems, including the irresistible "Manners" and that notorious taxi-dancer Millay only two. It is a truth universally acknowledged - at least it should be - that an anthology is a book that omits your favorite poem. There seems little point in examining Keillor's exclusions in Good Poems, some of which are surprising. Any volume of only 294 poems will inevitably exclude more writers than it contains. Instead it seems proper to savor his equally surprising passions. How many mid-sized anthologies include four poems each by Howard Nemerov and Charles Bukowski, or three each by Howard Moss and Kenneth Rexroth? Tuly East meets West in St. Paul, Minnesota, the capital of Lutheran catholicity." --Dana Gioia ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 17:04:57 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:04:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] cummings' poem in &good poems* References: <77.273e0f36.2db65a4c@aol.com> Message-ID: <007501c4271b$24ac5310$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> the cummings poem anthologized in gk's *good poems* is "since feeling is first" thom tammaro moorhead, mn Gah, Cummings may have composed worse poems, but not too many. Thanks for the datum, though, Thom. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue Apr 20 16:58:00 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:58:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomlinson's Skywriting Message-ID: <1f0.1e69abdd.2db6e8d8@aol.com> http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/poetry/0,6121,1193464,00.html Hailed in many other countries as one of Britain's finest living poets, Charles Tomlinson's latest collection, Skywriting, has received scant coverage in the UK. David Morley salutes an energetic fighter for poetry From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 17:20:17 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:20:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: Message-ID: <009e01c4271d$49557a50$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > > I haven't read the pieces yet but am sure ... > > Need one say more? --Prof. Graham No, professor. There's no possibility that anyone might be sure what two writers whose works are fairly well-known might say in a widely-discussed piece he HASN'T YET READ. I'm disappointed you didn't quote what I was sure of and refute it, though, since that would have made the point you made stronger. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 17:33:10 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:33:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <14.27530d1d.2db6826d@cs.com> Message-ID: <00c401c4271f$159cbf00$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In a message dated 4/20/2004 7:23:59 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: on 4/20/04 5:49 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: >I haven't read the pieces yet but am sure ... Need one say more? Bob Grumman, master of the a priori school of debate . . . From a master of the a posteriori school of avoiding debate--although I, of course, was not debating, just opining. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 17:40:19 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:40:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <20040420150021.65965.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00eb01c42720$15ade090$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Or--who is more likely to write a burstnorm poem, a > Liberterian or an Independent? > > Jeff Newberry An Independent. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 17:35:55 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:35:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <1e2.1e4106eb.2db68531@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d801c4271f$78a623c0$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> (In politics people can't understand why I see no significant differences between the Republicans and the Democrats the same way so many at New-Poetry can't understand why I see no significant differences between all the poets writing what I call Iowa Workshop poetry. Quick, who is more likely to write Iowa Workshop poetry, a Republican or a Democrat? Jeffrey L. A democrat. Counter-question: who is more likely to compose burst-norm poetry, a republicrat or someone contemptuous of both parties? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 18:08:25 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:08:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <28.46594c0b.2db69e4d@aol.com> Message-ID: <010201c42724$02499860$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > In a message dated 4/20/04 12:43:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > >If you haven't yet seen the POETRY issue in which Dana Gioia and August > > Kleinzahler differ vividly about Garrison Keillor's *Good Poems*, now you > > can read it online, thanks to the folks at Poetry Daily: > > > > http://www.poems.com/essakeil.htm > David, thanks for point to the URL?I read these two pieces > a week ago and was waiting for some time to type out some > quotes and responses to Kleinzahler's views. You saved me > many keystrokes. Kleinzahler's piece reminds me of a particularly > elitist take on National Poetry Month that Richard Howard > published some years ago in Harpers (I think it was?). > Kleinzahler is full of himself and full of "hog farm waste"? > > > It is difficult > to get the news from poems > yet men die miserably every day > for lack > of what is found there. > > Kleinzahler : A pretty sentiment, to be sure, but simply untrue, > as anyone who has been to the supermarket or ballpark recently > will concede. Ninety percent of adult Americans can pass through > this life tolerably well, if not content, eating, defecating, copulating, > shopping, working, catching the latest Disney blockbuster, without > having a poem read to them by Garrison Keillor or anyone else. > > JF--This is either an oddly literal or simply deliberate misreading > of the Williams' poem?certainly WCW wasn't speaking of death > per se, but rather a spiritual loss of whatever it is that makes life > worth living?a loss of that part of one's life that is capable of > yearning for something beyond mere day-to-day existence. I read it literally, and consider it absolutely valid. SOME men die (by killing themselves, or surrendering to drugs or something similar) because life lacks beauty for them, beauty the best poetry can provide. > K: It doesn't really matter. Keillor embalms whatever poem he > reads within the burnished caul of his delivery, a voice one friend > of mine describes as "probably taken out at day's end and left > to stand all night in a glass of bourbon." > > JF--Kleizahler even criticizes the quality of Keillor's voice? > certainly there must be some personal history here. Did these > two guys go high school together and date the same girl or something? > K: Let me put it starkly: the better animals in the jungle > aren't drawn to poetry anymore, and they're certainly not > tuned in to Keillor's Writer's Almanac. Just as the new genre > of the novel drew off most of the brilliant young writers of the > nineteenth century, movies, television, MTV, advertising, > rock 'n' roll, and the internet have taken the best among > the recent crop of young talent. Do you suppose for a > moment that a spirited youngster with a brilliant, original > mind and gifted up the yin-yang is going to sit still for two > years of creative writing poetry workshops presided over > by a dispirited, compromised mediocrity, all the while > critiquing and being critiqued by younger versions of the same? Which, as someone said, is what Gioia says, and is nonsense. > JF--I think poetry is going attract those it is going to attract. > There is certainly no need to mount a recruiting drive to attract > the best & the brightest (though I doubt the best are as swayed > by the Zeitgeist or cultural phenomena as Kleinzahler imagines). > The strength of poetry will never be sexy or fame-inducing or > immensely remunerative. In several places in the piece Kleinzahler > invokes the old paranoia about the 'MFA Matrix'. Kleinzahler, > playing the role of Morpheus, inveighing against the body-snatching > and brainwashing of America's youth for purposes of manufacturing > ersatz poets. I agree entirely. > K: Are we not yet adult enough as a culture to acknowledge > that the arts are not for everyone, and that bad art is worse than > no art at all; and that good or bad, art's exclusive function is to > entertain, not to improve or nourish or console, simply entertain. > And in this, Moby Dick or Bach's "Well-Tempered Clavier" are not > different than the movie Cat in the Hat or Britney Spears wiggling > her behind on stage; the former being more complexly entertaining > and satisfying, but only for those who can appreciate the difference, > and they are the minority. > > JF--Here Kleinzahler contradicts himself?so movies and world of > entertainment aren't all that attractive to the elite, & yet the best & > the brightest of our youth are drawn away from poetry to these other > cultural phenomena??And K knows the difference between good > and bad art is?but common folk of whom he earlier professed so > much faith, they presumably don't? > > K: In America, usefulness is indissolubly wed to profit, increased > capital. Poetry is no exception. It is worth reflecting during National > Poetry Month that creative writing, over the past forty years, has > subsumed American poetry and become a 250-million-dollar industry, > a rather seamy industry, and an off-shoot of the rather seamy Human > Potential Movement industry. > > JF--So poetry has wide appeal after all?otherwise how has a 250 million > industry has grown up around it?, but wait, all is not well? > > K: Poetry is seldom, if ever, reviewed in mainstream journals like > the New York Times, the New Yorker, Harper's, the Atlantic Monthly, > and when it is reviewed at all, it is reviewed in a cursory or inept > manner. > -&- > K: I, for one, have never in my lifetime seen the situation of poetry > in this country more dire or desperate. Nor is the future promising. > Cultural and economic forces only suggest further devastation of > any sort of vital literary culture, along with the prospects of the very, > very few - it is always only a very few - poets who will matter down > the road. What little of real originality is out there is drowning in the > waste products spewing from graduate writing programs like the hog > farm waste that recently overflowed its holding tanks in the wake > of Hurricane Isabel, fouling the Carolina countryside and poisoning > everything in its path. > JF--Omigod, it's the end of the world as we know it?Run, run away! > Finnegan I'm with his (very standard) belief that it's silly to want the masses to appreciate serious poetry any more than they appreciate serious science or serious anything, but it'd be nice if they respected it. Otherwise, I'm pretty much with James on what he said. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 18:16:17 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:16:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2A4@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <011c01c42725$1bf74680$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > From: Bob Grumman > > I found GOOD POEMS but > > decided against buying it. It was much thicker than I thought it would > > be, > > and much more conventional. It isn't a wide selection of "accessible" > > poems > > not easy to find otherwise as I thought but just a hack collection of the > > standards with a sprinkling of "accessible" poems added. > > > > --Bob G. > ----------------- > Well, I can't supply any remedy for the book's thickness, I admit. It > certainly is thick. And its conventionality & accessibility are not really > in question; they are the subject not only of Gioia's and Kleinzahler's > reviews, but also of Keillor's own introduction. > > But about the book's inclusions and exclusions, it seems from my vantage > point that the above characterization is almost hilariously wrong. You're right. I've never heard of any of those poets Gioia said were represented in the anthology. Auden--I was going to ask you who he was, but then I remembered I can do a net search. I'll say more when I have time to waste and read the mediocrities' essays. --Bob G. From jvcervantes Tue Apr 20 19:55:27 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:55:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] found spam poem Message-ID: <4085B86F.B9D1C08B@earthlink.net> Subject: eliminate paragraph safe allison doorway nimbus samovar bostonian glisten sidetrack cloven nearsighted parochial folio schofield digital housewives newfound cot beebe bellow impromptu planeload abuse decadent necessary coccidiosis beresford quotation girth adkins cassius galt ameliorate gospel concision Subject: gilbert affirm knockout hairdo altogether linda lunchtime creepy cockeye retrogressive holdover grit macroprocessor share protagonist horizon corrigible elute bare basemen barrington fit merck Subject: marine arabic distant barnett asheville augend bolo beefy hartman gneiss audio giovanni cabot mommy mansfield molt notary gorilla daytime cotoneaster copywriter ameslan myopia chang burnett homogenate hydride cluj consistent disturb Subject: joel felix haploid decibel bear bureaucracy shire divorcee bootstrapping glyph gait ayers cursory doberman experiential egocentric infernal composure extradite pegasus ganges connally nullify cheesy - Jim From tadrichards Tue Apr 20 20:01:40 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:01:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <20040420150021.65965.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01c42733$d3a15ec0$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> Well, it's mostly the Trots who write L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, right? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Newberry" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Or--who is more likely to write a burstnorm poem, a Liberterian or an Independent? Jeff Newberry --- FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/20/2004 6:50:01 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > > > (In politics > > people can't understand why I see no significant > differences between the > > Republicans and the Democrats the same way so many > at New-Poetry can't > > understand why I see no significant differences > between all the poets > > writing what I call Iowa Workshop poetry. > > Quick, who is more likely to write Iowa Workshop > poetry, a Republican or a > Democrat? > > Jeffrey L. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 20 21:40:52 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:40:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <8d.8d9add9.2db72b24@cs.com> In a message dated 4/20/2004 8:18:58 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > I'm with his (very standard) belief that it's silly to want the masses to > appreciate serious poetry any more than they appreciate serious science or > serious anything, but it'd be nice if they respected it. Otherwise, I'm > pretty much with James on what he said. > > --Bob G. So it's no longer epater le bourgeoisie but epater le common (wo)man? Soon there ain't gonna be anybody to epater. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 20 21:41:55 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:41:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] found spam poem Message-ID: <109.2f779851.2db72b63@cs.com> In a message dated 4/20/2004 8:19:18 PM Central Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > Subject: eliminate paragraph safe allison doorway > nimbus samovar bostonian glisten sidetrack cloven > nearsighted parochial folio schofield digital housewives > newfound cot beebe bellow impromptu planeload abuse > decadent necessary coccidiosis beresford quotation girth > adkins cassius galt ameliorate gospel concision > > Subject: gilbert affirm knockout hairdo altogether > linda lunchtime creepy cockeye retrogressive holdover grit > macroprocessor share protagonist horizon corrigible > elute bare basemen barrington fit merck > > Subject: marine arabic distant barnett asheville > augend bolo beefy hartman gneiss audio giovanni > cabot mommy mansfield molt notary gorilla daytime > cotoneaster copywriter ameslan myopia chang burnett > homogenate hydride cluj consistent disturb > > Subject: joel felix haploid decibel bear bureaucracy > shire divorcee bootstrapping glyph gait ayers cursory > doberman experiential egocentric infernal composure > extradite pegasus ganges connally nullify cheesy > > - Jim > _______________________________________ Hey, somebody's plagiarizing Silliman! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Tue Apr 20 21:45:50 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:45:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents In-Reply-To: <011c01c42725$1bf74680$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/20/04 5:16 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: >> >> But about the book's inclusions and exclusions, it seems from my vantage >> point that the above characterization is almost hilariously wrong. > > You're right. I've never heard of any of those poets Gioia said were > represented in the anthology. Auden--I was going to ask you who he was, but > then I remembered I can do a net search. > > I'll say more when I have time to waste and read the mediocrities' essays. > > --Bob G. > Bob, just for giggles, I'll call your bluff. If you can honestly say you are actually familiar with the work of the following poets, each included in Keillor's anthology, I'll send you a free book. And by the way, when I say "familiar with" I mean that you have actually read their work, OK? Gerald Locklin Tom Disch Robert Phillips Joseph Stroud Jennifer Michael Hecht Joyce Sutphen C. G. Hanzlicek Barbara Ras Thom Ward Steve Scafidi Leo Dangel Thomas Alan Orr Erica-Lynn Gambino Jim Schley Carol DeMagistris Robert Lax Mary Leader Tom Hennen Orval Lund Roy Daniells Geof Hewitt David Budbill Sheenagh Pugh Bill Holm Robert Kinsley Charles Edward Carryl Guy W. Longchamps John Tagliabue -------- Hell, I'll give you credit if you can claim real familiarity with 14 of the above 28. Remember that I'm not disputing that the book's aesthetic is conventional. I was merely pointing out that Gioia is simply *right* when he notes that the anthology contains (a) quite a few little known poets, and (b) some surprisingly unconventional selections from the famous (Auden, Justice, et al.) By my lights, the above list of little known poets (and I could have kept going for some time) is pretty remarkable for a mainstream anthology. As is Keillor's inclusion of so much work by poets such as Lisel Mueller and Kenneth Rexroth. Oh, by the way, one of the poets on the list above is my invention. I'm wondering how many of us hardcore mainstreamers could identify the name without looking at the book? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 Tue Apr 20 21:50:41 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:50:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents Message-ID: <4e.2a87a889.2db72d71@cs.com> In a message dated 4/20/2004 8:46:00 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Gerald Locklin > Tom Disch > Robert Phillips > Joseph Stroud > Jennifer Michael Hecht > Joyce Sutphen > C. G. Hanzlicek > Barbara Ras > Thom Ward > Steve Scafidi > Leo Dangel > Thomas Alan Orr > Erica-Lynn Gambino > Jim Schley > Carol DeMagistris > Robert Lax > Mary Leader > Tom Hennen > Orval Lund > Roy Daniells > Geof Hewitt > David Budbill > Sheenagh Pugh > Bill Holm > Robert Kinsley > Charles Edward Carryl > Guy W. Longchamps > John Tagliabue > -------- > > Hell, I'll give you credit if you can claim real familiarity with 14 of the > above 28. > > Remember that I'm not disputing that the book's aesthetic is conventional. > > I was merely pointing out that Gioia is simply *right* when he notes that > the anthology contains (a) quite a few little known poets, and (b) some > surprisingly unconventional selections from the famous (Auden, Justice, et > al.) > > By my lights, the above list of little known poets (and I could have kept > going for some time) is pretty remarkable for a mainstream anthology. As is > Keillor's inclusion of so much work by poets such as Lisel Mueller and > Kenneth Rexroth. > > Oh, by the way, one of the poets on the list above is my invention. I'm > wondering how many of us hardcore mainstreamers could identify the name > without looking at the book? > > Can there possibly be a poet named Guy W. Longchamps? Well, if there's a Floyd Skloot, why not? Sorry if I've ever posted this one before: Ballade of the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear Tell me where, oh, where are they, Those Younger Poets of Old Yale Whose laurels flourished for a day But wither now beyond the pale? Where are Chubb, Farrar, and Vinal With fame as fragile as a bubble? Where is the late Paul Tanaquil, And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? Where's Banks? Where's Boyle? Where's Frances Clai- Borne Mason? Where's T. H. Ferril? Dorothy E. Reid or Margaret Ha- Ley? Simmering in Bad Poets Hell? J. Ingalls' Metaphysical Sword (hacking critics' weeds to stubble)? Young Ashbery (that is, "John L.")? And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? Where's Alfred Raymond Bellinger (If you'll allow me to exhale Him avec un accent Fran?ais)? Where's Faust (Henri) or Dorothy Belle Flanagan? Where is Paul Engle (To rhyme whose surname gave me trouble)? Hath tolled for all the passing bell? And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? Prince of all poets, hear, I pray, And raise them from their beds of rubble. Where's Younger Carolyn Forch?? And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 21:57:12 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:57:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <8d.8d9add9.2db72b24@cs.com> Message-ID: <024001c42743$f80cb150$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm with his (very standard) belief that it's silly to want the masses to appreciate serious poetry any more than they appreciate serious science or serious anything, but it'd be nice if they respected it. Otherwise, I'm pretty much with James on what he said. --Bob G. So it's no longer epater le bourgeoisie but epater le common (wo)man? Soon there ain't gonna be anybody to epater. I don't follow, Sam. I'm for writing for the intelligent few, not for shocking the bourgeoisie or the commonfolk. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL Tue Apr 20 21:57:50 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:57:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents Message-ID: <65.276f26c1.2db72f1e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/20/2004 9:46:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: Jennifer Michael Hecht Won the Tupelo Press First Book Award for The Next Ancient World, and this astonishing book of poetry headed our very first list. Won the ForeWord Magazine Poetry Book of the Year Award. Won the Norma Farber Prize from Poetry Society of America for best first book of poetry. An utterly brilliant woman, professor of history, has even more recently published Doubt: A History, issued by HarperSanFrancisco, and just reviewed in The New Republic. https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20040412&s=wolfe041204 I make no claim for GK's taste, or for any other contemporaries in the anthology. In fact, I suspect he likes her for the wrong reasons (attributes a sentimentality that simply isn't there) But here is someone you need to know. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 21:59:12 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:59:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] found spam poem References: <109.2f779851.2db72b63@cs.com> Message-ID: <024c01c42744$3ff75650$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> In a message dated 4/20/2004 8:19:18 PM Central Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: Subject: eliminate paragraph safe allison doorway nimbus samovar bostonian glisten sidetrack cloven nearsighted parochial folio schofield digital housewives newfound cot beebe bellow impromptu planeload abuse decadent necessary coccidiosis beresford quotation girth adkins cassius galt ameliorate gospel concision Subject: gilbert affirm knockout hairdo altogether linda lunchtime creepy cockeye retrogressive holdover grit macroprocessor share protagonist horizon corrigible elute bare basemen barrington fit merck Subject: marine arabic distant barnett asheville augend bolo beefy hartman gneiss audio giovanni cabot mommy mansfield molt notary gorilla daytime cotoneaster copywriter ameslan myopia chang burnett homogenate hydride cluj consistent disturb Subject: joel felix haploid decibel bear bureaucracy shire divorcee bootstrapping glyph gait ayers cursory doberman experiential egocentric infernal composure extradite pegasus ganges connally nullify cheesy - Jim _______________________________________ Hey, somebody's plagiarizing Silliman! I suppose it is as close to Silliman as "hte" is to "lighght." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Tue Apr 20 22:03:47 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:03:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents In-Reply-To: <4e.2a87a889.2db72d71@cs.com> Message-ID: on 4/20/04 8:50 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: In a message dated 4/20/2004 8:46:00 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: Gerald Locklin Tom Disch Robert Phillips Joseph Stroud Jennifer Michael Hecht Joyce Sutphen C. G. Hanzlicek Barbara Ras Thom Ward Steve Scafidi Leo Dangel Thomas Alan Orr Erica-Lynn Gambino Jim Schley Carol DeMagistris Robert Lax Mary Leader Tom Hennen Orval Lund Roy Daniells Geof Hewitt David Budbill Sheenagh Pugh Bill Holm Robert Kinsley Charles Edward Carryl Guy W. Longchamps John Tagliabue -------- Oh, by the way, one of the poets on the list above is my invention. I'm wondering how many of us hardcore mainstreamers could identify the name without looking at the book? Can there possibly be a poet named Guy W. Longchamps? Well, if there's a Floyd Skloot, why not? Sorry if I've ever posted this one before: Ballade of the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear Tell me where, oh, where are they, Those Younger Poets of Old Yale Whose laurels flourished for a day But wither now beyond the pale? Where are Chubb, Farrar, and Vinal With fame as fragile as a bubble? Where is the late Paul Tanaquil, And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? Where's Banks? Where's Boyle? Where's Frances Clai- Borne Mason? Where's T. H. Ferril? Dorothy E. Reid or Margaret Ha- Ley? Simmering in Bad Poets Hell? J. Ingalls' Metaphysical Sword (hacking critics' weeds to stubble)? Young Ashbery (that is, "John L.")? And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? Where's Alfred Raymond Bellinger (If you'll allow me to exhale Him avec un accent Fran?ais)? Where's Faust (Henri) or Dorothy Belle Flanagan? Where is Paul Engle (To rhyme whose surname gave me trouble)? Hath tolled for all the passing bell? And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? Prince of all poets, hear, I pray, And raise them from their beds of rubble. Where's Younger Carolyn Forch?? And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? Ah, you can never post that poem often enough, Sam! Lovely. About Guy W. Longchamps I share your suspicions, but that was not my invention. I suspect it was Keillor's invention, since the contributor's note informs us that Mr. Longchamps shares Keillor's birth date and home town, and "is the manager of Brock's Soda Fountain in Anoka and a driver on the Anoka-Minneapolis bus line." Longchamps's poem is an ode to pissing, by the way, including such rhymes as "take a leak/ great physique". . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Tue Apr 20 22:27:16 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:27:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents References: Message-ID: <025601c42748$2b9b1990$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bob, just for giggles, I'll call your bluff. If you can honestly say you are actually familiar with the work of the following poets, each included in Keillor's anthology, I'll send you a free book. > And by the way, when I say "familiar with" I mean that you have actually > read their work, OK? > Gerald Locklin > Tom Disch > Robert Phillips > Joseph Stroud > Jennifer Michael Hecht > Joyce Sutphen > C. G. Hanzlicek > Barbara Ras > Thom Ward > Steve Scafidi > Leo Dangel > Thomas Alan Orr > Erica-Lynn Gambino > Jim Schley > Carol DeMagistris > Robert Lax > Mary Leader > Tom Hennen > Orval Lund > Roy Daniells > Geof Hewitt > David Budbill > Sheenagh Pugh > Bill Holm > Robert Kinsley > Charles Edward Carryl > Guy W. Longchamps > John Tagliabue > -------- > > Hell, I'll give you credit if you can claim real familiarity with 14 of the > above 28. > > Remember that I'm not disputing that the book's aesthetic is conventional. > I was merely pointing out that Gioia is simply *right* when he notes that > the anthology contains (a) quite a few little known poets, and (b) some > surprisingly unconventional selections from the famous (Auden, Justice, et > al.) > > By my lights, the above list of little known poets (and I could have kept > going for some time) is pretty remarkable for a mainstream anthology. As is > Keillor's inclusion of so much work by poets such as Lisel Mueller and > Kenneth Rexroth. > > Oh, by the way, one of the poets on the list above is my invention. I'm > wondering how many of us hardcore mainstreamers could identify the name > without looking at the book? I know the work slightly of 5 or 6 of them and of Robert Lax fairly well. All anthologies have work by poets I don't know except the very worst. There's also a good possibility that I've read the work of several more of these poets, perhaps even most of them, without remembering their names or poems. But here's what I said, "It isn't a wide selection of 'accessible' poems not easy to find otherwise as I thought but just a hack collection of the standards with a sprinkling of 'accessible' poems added." I stand by that, although it may be that the sprinkling may be as much as twenty percent of the book, which is high for a "sprinkling." Further, I'll bet that you can't find more than five or six poets in the anthology who haven't gotten mainstream publication. Now for further giggles, here's a list of all the poets in an anthology my press just published: mIEKAL aND, Anonymone, paloin biloid, Jonathan Branne, John Byruwm, John Robert Colombo, Andrew Russ, Greg Evason, B.J. Fiorellino. Christopher Franke, LeRoy Gorman, Bob Grumman, Lee Gurga, Michael Helsem, Crag Hill, G. Huth, Jim Kacian, Karl Kempton, Richard Kostelanetz, Mark Lamoureux, Peggy Willis Lyles, Ezra Mark, John Marron, Marlene Mountain, bpNichol, annie one, Emily Romano, Aram Saroyan, Strawberry Saroyan, Surllama, George Swede, Cor van den Heuvel, Nicholas A. Virgilio, Michael Dylan Welch, Karl Young. Are there as many as ten poets in the list whose names you RECOGNIZE? Sure, it's a specialized micro-zine anthology, so you shouldn't be expected to. But it's interesting to me that none of the poets named, some of them with many poems in micro-print, and at least half of them as good, in my view, as the best living poets in Keiller's anthology, have a poem in his anthology. (The anthology is called Ampersand Squared; glossy paperback about 4" by 5"; 92 pp.; $10 ppd. It consists of what its editor, Geof Huth, terms "pwoermds," which he defines as one-word untitled poems. "lighght" is one of them. Most of them are accessible intellectually but not aesthetically because most people can't tell/feel the aesthetic difference between pwoermds like "lighght" and poems like "hte.") --Bob G. From jvcervantes Tue Apr 20 22:50:28 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:50:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents References: <025601c42748$2b9b1990$71efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <4085E173.85A94C38@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > Now for further giggles, here's a list of all the poets in an anthology my > press just published: > > mIEKAL aND, Anonymone, paloin biloid, Jonathan Branne, John Byruwm, John > Robert Colombo, Andrew Russ, Greg Evason, B.J. Fiorellino. Christopher > Franke, LeRoy Gorman, Bob Grumman, Lee Gurga, Michael Helsem, Crag Hill, G. > Huth, Jim Kacian, Karl Kempton, Richard Kostelanetz, Mark Lamoureux, Peggy > Willis Lyles, Ezra Mark, John Marron, Marlene Mountain, bpNichol, annie one, > Emily Romano, Aram Saroyan, Strawberry Saroyan, Surllama, George Swede, Cor > van den Heuvel, Nicholas A. Virgilio, Michael Dylan Welch, Karl Young. > > Are there as many as ten poets in the list whose names you RECOGNIZE? I think I get spam from Strawberry Saroyan and paloin biloid. annie one wants to know if I'd like to look at her pix. - Jim From mandolin Tue Apr 20 23:08:07 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:08:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CFB823E-9341-11D8-A457-000393C29586@mac.com> On Apr 20, 2004, at 10:03 PM, David Graham wrote: on 4/20/04 8:50 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > Ballade of the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear > > Tell me where, oh, where are they, > Those Younger Poets of Old Yale > Whose laurels flourished for a day > But wither now beyond the pale? > Where are Chubb, Farrar, and Vinal > With fame as fragile as a bubble? > Where is the late Paul Tanaquil, > And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? > > Where's Banks? ?Where's Boyle? ?Where's Frances Clai- > Borne Mason? ?Where's T. H. Ferril? > Dorothy E. Reid or Margaret Ha- > Ley? ?Simmering in Bad Poets Hell? > J. Ingalls' Metaphysical > Sword (hacking critics' weeds to stubble)? > Young Ashbery (that is, "John L.")? > And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? > > Where's Alfred Raymond Bellinger > (If you'll allow me to exhale > Him avec un accent Fran?ais)? > Where's Faust (Henri) or Dorothy Belle > Flanagan? ?Where is Paul Engle > (To rhyme whose surname gave me trouble)? > Hath tolled for all the passing bell? > And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? > > Prince of all poets, hear, I pray, > And raise them from their beds of rubble. > Where's Younger Carolyn Forch?? > And where is Lindley Williams Hubble? ?????????????????????? > > Ah, you can never post that poem often enough, Sam! ?Lovely. > First time I've seen it, Sam. Huzzah! > About Guy W. Longchamps I share your suspicions, but that was not my > invention. ?I suspect it was Keillor's invention, since the > contributor's note informs us that Mr. Longchamps shares Keillor's > birth date and home town, and "is the manager of Brock's Soda Fountain > in Anoka and a driver on the Anoka-Minneapolis bus line." ? > > Longchamps's poem is an ode to pissing, by the way, including such > rhymes as "take a leak/ great physique". . . . > C B Trail has a poem in the book--a fairly explicit sonnet on cunnilingus--but no biography and nothing in Google. Another ringer? Or just my ignorance? From adead_poet Tue Apr 20 23:15:24 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:15:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404210306.i3L36qXE001884@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reneea Wed Apr 21 00:25:50 2004 From: reneea (Renee Ashley) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:25:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents References: <65.276f26c1.2db72f1e@aol.com> Message-ID: <00e101c42758$ba828de0$da66fea9@Barnette> It's true. Hecht is a marvelous poet! I recommend The Next Ancient World with amazement and joy. Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Good Poems/table of contents In a message dated 4/20/2004 9:46:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: Jennifer Michael Hecht Won the Tupelo Press First Book Award for The Next Ancient World, and this astonishing book of poetry headed our very first list. Won the ForeWord Magazine Poetry Book of the Year Award. Won the Norma Farber Prize from Poetry Society of America for best first book of poetry. An utterly brilliant woman, professor of history, has even more recently published Doubt: A History, issued by HarperSanFrancisco, and just reviewed in The New Republic. https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20040412&s=wolfe041204 I make no claim for GK's taste, or for any other contemporaries in the anthology. In fact, I suspect he likes her for the wrong reasons (attributes a sentimentality that simply isn't there) But here is someone you need to know. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Wed Apr 21 09:47:33 2004 From: grahamd (grahamd at ripon.edu) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:47:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404211337.i3LDbtXE005253@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wjbat Wed Apr 21 10:41:01 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:41:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: <28.46594c0b.2db69e4d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 11:39 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > JF--Kleizahler even criticizes the quality of Keillor's voice? > certainly there must be some personal history here. Did these > two guys go high school together and date the same girl or something? Another quote from the Kleinzahler essay: "Actually, _Good Poems_ isn't as bad as one might think had one been listening now and then to Keillor's morning segment over the years. Its principal virtue is that one doesn't have to endure Keillor's poetry voice." His whole critique--thanks, David, for posting the url-- is more concerned with GK's Writer's Almanac than with the anthology. I'm in full sympathy with him there. I avoid hearing the show when I can, but now and then it ambushes me. Always a painful experience. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. --Rumi From rlong Wed Apr 21 11:44:54 2004 From: rlong (Richard Long) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:44:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Florsheim Chapbook Message-ID: 2River today released THE GIRL EATING OYSTERS, a chapbook by Stewart Florsheim, with cover art by Mark Flowers. In the chapbook, Florsheim employs narrative to reflect on, among other things, growing up in New York City and being the child of refugees from Nazi Germany. THE GIRL EATING OYSTERS is the sixteenth entry in the 2River Chapbook Series. You can read the chapbook by going to www.2River.org. Richard Long 2River www.2River.org From adead_poet Wed Apr 21 12:03:58 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:03:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Error in document Message-ID: <200404211555.i3LFtLXE006397@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Your important document, correction is finished! ++++ Attachment: No Virus found ++++ Norman AntiVirus - www.norman.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: document.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From GrahamD Wed Apr 21 12:22:41 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:22:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2A7@mail.ripon.edu> Garrison Keillor's radio voice seems to polarize people just as reliably as his taste, his sense of humor, and his politics. Most interesting. I suppose it's like Bob Dylan's voice--how people tend to either love or hate it. (His voice in its prime, I mean. The last decade or two it's been less a voice than a croak.) As I noted once before, Kleinzahler speculates, in the course of his grudging admission that *Good Poems* "isn't as bad as one might think," that probably the good poems were chosen not by Keillor but by a staffer. Seems clear enough that no one could win such an argument; Keillor is judged not by what he's done but by who he is. Or, more accurately, by a murky vision of some sort of poetic Lake Wobegon, all warm-hearted uplift and middlebrow sentimentality, that to my eyes just doesn't resemble the book very closely at all. (It's not a sufficient summary of *Prairie Home Companion*, either, but that's another matter.) Keillor's no doubt laughing all the way to the bank, but it's fascinating to see how someone as smart as Kleinzahler can look so resolutely past what's actually on the page. Gioia may have his faults as critic and reviewer, but he's pretty good at letting you know what's in a book. Ah, well, I repeat myself. By the way, I don't think *Good Poems* is a perfect book, and I'd be happy to talk about its limitations if anyone's interested in the book as well as its reviews. But for now, here are a couple cosy sentimental poems from the shores of Lake Wobegon. Perhaps some staffer put them into the anthology when Keillor wasn't looking: THE SNOW MAN One must have a mind of winter To regard the frost and the boughs Of the pine-trees crusted with snow; And have been cold a long time To behold the junipers shagged with ice, The spruces rough in the distant glitter Of the January sun; and not to think Of any misery in the sound of the wind, In the sound of a few leaves, Which is the sound of the land Full of the same wind That is blowing in the same bare place For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is. --Wallace Stevens ------------------------------------------- The Feast The lovers loitered on the deck talking, the men who were with men and the men who were with new women, a little shrill and electric, and the wifely women who had repose and beautifully lined faces and coppery skin. She had taken the turkey from the oven and her friends were talking on the deck in the steady sunshine. She imagined them drifting toward the food, in small groups, finishing sentences, lifting a pickle of a sliver of turkey, nibbling a little with unconscious pleasure. And she imagined setting it out artfully, the white meat, the breads, antipasto, the mushrooms and salad arranged down the oak counter cleanly, and how they all came as in a dance when she called them. She carved meat and then she was crying. Then she was in darkness crying. She didn't know what she wanted. -- Robert Hass ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From Rsgwynn1 Wed Apr 21 12:46:04 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:46:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices Message-ID: <78.5504f6f4.2db7ff4c@cs.com> In a message dated 4/21/2004 11:24:00 AM Central Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > > Garrison Keillor's radio voice seems to polarize people just as reliably as > his taste, his sense of humor, and his politics. > > Most interesting. I suppose it's like Bob Dylan's voice--how people tend to > either love or hate it. (His voice in its prime, I mean. The last decade or > two it's been less a voice than a croak.) > > As I noted once before, Kleinzahler speculates, in the course of his > > grudging admission that *Good Poems* "isn't as bad as one might think," that > probably the good poems were chosen not by Keillor but by a staffer. > > Seems clear enough that no one could win such an argument; Keillor is judged > not by what he's done but by who he is. Or, more accurately, by a murky > vision of some sort of poetic Lake Wobegon, all warm-hearted uplift and > middlebrow sentimentality, that to my eyes just doesn't resemble the book > very closely at all. > > (It's not a sufficient summary of *Prairie Home Companion*, either, but > that's another matter.) > > Keillor's no doubt laughing all the way to the bank, but it's fascinating to > see how someone as smart as Kleinzahler can look so resolutely past what's > actually on the page. Gioia may have his faults as critic and reviewer, but > he's pretty good at letting you know what's in a book. > > Ah, well, I repeat myself. By the way, I don't think *Good Poems* is a > perfect book, and I'd be happy to talk about its limitations if anyone's > interested in the book as well as its reviews. > > But for now, here are a couple cosy sentimental poems from the shores of > Lake Wobegon. Perhaps some staffer put them into the anthology when Keillor > wasn't looking: > > THE SNOW MAN > > Yah, one must have a mind of winter > To regard the frost and the boughs > Of the pine-trees crusted with snow; > > And have been cold a long time > To behold the junipers shagged with ice, > The spruces rough in the distant glitter > > Of the January sun; and not to think > Of any misery in the sound of the wind, > In the sound of a few leaves, > > Which is the sound of the land > Full of the same wind > That is blowing in the same bare place > > For the listener, who listens in the snow, > And, nothing himself, beholds > Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is, you bet 'cha. > > --Wallace Stevens > You're being disingenuous again, David. Everyone knows this poem was written by Ole Svens. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Wed Apr 21 12:48:05 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:48:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2A7@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: David, His "radio voice" is one thing; his "poetry voice" quite another. Anyone who could write & deliver PHC week after week for so many years is an impressive character in my book. That doesn't make him a good reader--ie, performer-- of poetry. Wendy On Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Graham, David wrote: > Garrison Keillor's radio voice seems to polarize people just as > reliably as > his taste, his sense of humor, and his politics. > > Most interesting. I suppose it's like Bob Dylan's voice--how people > tend to > either love or hate it. (His voice in its prime, I mean. The last > decade or > two it's been less a voice than a croak.) > > As I noted once before, Kleinzahler speculates, in the course of his > grudging admission that *Good Poems* "isn't as bad as one might > think," that > probably the good poems were chosen not by Keillor but by a staffer. > > Seems clear enough that no one could win such an argument; Keillor is > judged > not by what he's done but by who he is. Or, more accurately, by a > murky > vision of some sort of poetic Lake Wobegon, all warm-hearted uplift and > middlebrow sentimentality, that to my eyes just doesn't resemble the > book > very closely at all. > > (It's not a sufficient summary of *Prairie Home Companion*, either, but > that's another matter.) > > Keillor's no doubt laughing all the way to the bank, but it's > fascinating to > see how someone as smart as Kleinzahler can look so resolutely past > what's > actually on the page. Gioia may have his faults as critic and > reviewer, but > he's pretty good at letting you know what's in a book. > > Ah, well, I repeat myself. By the way, I don't think *Good Poems* is a > perfect book, and I'd be happy to talk about its limitations if > anyone's > interested in the book as well as its reviews. > > But for now, here are a couple cosy sentimental poems from the shores > of > Lake Wobegon. Perhaps some staffer put them into the anthology when > Keillor > wasn't looking: > > THE SNOW MAN > > One must have a mind of winter > To regard the frost and the boughs > Of the pine-trees crusted with snow; > > And have been cold a long time > To behold the junipers shagged with ice, > The spruces rough in the distant glitter > > Of the January sun; and not to think > Of any misery in the sound of the wind, > In the sound of a few leaves, > > Which is the sound of the land > Full of the same wind > That is blowing in the same bare place > > For the listener, who listens in the snow, > And, nothing himself, beholds > Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is. > > --Wallace Stevens > > ------------------------------------------- > > > The Feast > > > The lovers loitered on the deck talking, > the men who were with men and the men who were with new women, > a little shrill and electric, and the wifely women > who had repose and beautifully lined faces > and coppery skin. She had taken the turkey from the oven > and her friends were talking on the deck > in the steady sunshine. She imagined them > drifting toward the food, in small groups, finishing > sentences, lifting a pickle of a sliver of turkey, > nibbling a little with unconscious pleasure. And > she imagined setting it out artfully, the white meat, > the breads, antipasto, the mushrooms and salad > arranged down the oak counter cleanly, and how they all came > as in a dance when she called them. She carved meat > and then she was crying. Then she was in darkness > crying. She didn't know what she wanted. > -- Robert Hass > > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Blessed are the flexible, for they will not be bent out of shape. From GrahamD Wed Apr 21 13:08:24 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:08:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2A8@mail.ripon.edu> > David, > His "radio voice" is one thing; his "poetry voice" quite another. > Anyone who could write & deliver PHC week after week for so many years > is an impressive character in my book. That doesn't make him a good > reader--ie, performer-- of poetry. > > Wendy ---------------------- No argument there. But as I said, it's a rather interesting polarization. Obviously, there are those who do like his "poetry voice," just as there are those who think that Bob Dylan's whiny moan on "Like a Rolling Stone" was rather beautifully expressive. A friend told me the other day that he jumps to the radio to turn off Ira Glass's public radio show "This American Life," because he absolutely can't stand Glass's voice. Me, I'm the reverse. I'm teaching a course this term called Poetry Aloud, in which we play a great many recordings of poets reading. One thing I'm faced with on a daily basis is the huge variety and unpredictability of aural taste. Students often surprise me, as, for example, they did by almost universally loathing the voice of Dylan Thomas. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From wjbat Wed Apr 21 13:29:12 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:29:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why this list is too much trouble..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <67C17FB3-93B9-11D8-B3FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 01:08 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > I just erased pages and pages of HTML code from the bottom of this > message.. That's the common plague of digests. You could save yourself some trouble by switching to individual posts and configuring your email program to filter all messages to a "new-poetry" folder. Very easy to do in most programs. Just a suggestion. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Don't walk so fast. The rain is everywhere. --Shunryu Suzuki From jvcervantes Wed Apr 21 15:10:59 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:10:59 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why this list is too much trouble..... References: <67C17FB3-93B9-11D8-B3FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <4086C743.7AC50A14@earthlink.net> Wendy Battin wrote: > > On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 01:08 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > > I just erased pages and pages of HTML code from the bottom of this > > message.. > > That's the common plague of digests. You could save yourself some > trouble by switching to individual posts and configuring your email > program to filter all messages to a "new-poetry" folder. Very easy to > do in most programs. > Just a suggestion. And also configure to allow only plain text messages. Anyway, messages sent in plain text and html, or html alone, make for more bytes used - kinda like airline passengers who take a "personal item" that's as large as the carry-on baggae. Space piggies. - Jim From kpaul Wed Apr 21 15:18:14 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:18:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Why this list is too much trouble..... In-Reply-To: <4086C743.7AC50A14@earthlink.net> References: <67C17FB3-93B9-11D8-B3FB-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <4086C743.7AC50A14@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040421141736.R38027@kpaul.spinweb.net> Not to mention that reading HTML email (especially spam) allows the spammer to figure out your email is still valid - if the image loads, your email is valid and they send more your way. ;) -kpaul On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, James Cervantes wrote: > > > Wendy Battin wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, March 24, 2004, at 01:08 PM, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > > > I just erased pages and pages of HTML code from the bottom of this > > > message.. > > > > That's the common plague of digests. You could save yourself some > > trouble by switching to individual posts and configuring your email > > program to filter all messages to a "new-poetry" folder. Very easy to > > do in most programs. > > Just a suggestion. > > And also configure to allow only plain text messages. Anyway, messages > sent in plain text and html, or html alone, make for more bytes used - > kinda like airline passengers who take a "personal item" that's as large > as the carry-on baggae. Space piggies. > > - Jim > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tadrichards Wed Apr 21 19:14:16 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:14:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2A8@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <00a601c427f6$5f52da80$6601a8c0@MoleHQ> That IS a surprise. What was their problem with Thomas' voice? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:08 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices > > David, > > His "radio voice" is one thing; his "poetry voice" quite another. > > Anyone who could write & deliver PHC week after week for so many years > > is an impressive character in my book. That doesn't make him a good > > reader--ie, performer-- of poetry. > > > > Wendy > ---------------------- > > No argument there. But as I said, it's a rather interesting polarization. > Obviously, there are those who do like his "poetry voice," just as there are > those who think that Bob Dylan's whiny moan on "Like a Rolling Stone" was > rather beautifully expressive. > > A friend told me the other day that he jumps to the radio to turn off Ira > Glass's public radio show "This American Life," because he absolutely can't > stand Glass's voice. Me, I'm the reverse. > > I'm teaching a course this term called Poetry Aloud, in which we play a > great many recordings of poets reading. One thing I'm faced with on a daily > basis is the huge variety and unpredictability of aural taste. Students > often surprise me, as, for example, they did by almost universally loathing > the voice of Dylan Thomas. > ============================================ > David Graham > Department of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wjbat Wed Apr 21 21:59:20 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:59:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2A8@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: On Wednesday, April 21, 2004, at 01:08 PM, Graham, David wrote: > One thing I'm faced with on a daily > basis is the huge variety and unpredictability of aural taste. > Students > often surprise me, as, for example, they did by almost universally > loathing > the voice of Dylan Thomas. David, Is it the voice? the accent? or the delivery, which might seem too foreign in all its lushness? (Yes, pun intended.) I wonder if he embarrassed them. Flat is good in some neighborhoods. I have no problem with Keillor's voice, as an instrument, and he has a great ear for his own brand of storytelling. But he clearly isn't seduced by music in language, whether it's free verse or formal. Yeats sounds just like Maxine Kumin when he reads them. And missing that, he misses a lot else. I've always wanted to teach a radio theater course but haven't managed to work it in anywhere. Sam Beckett did a couple of wonderful radio plays--__All That Fall_ is a glory. _Under Milkwood_. ZBS Studios (_Moon Over Morocco_ and beyond) and the original _Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_. How far back do you go for recorded poetry, and do you have a listening list? Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu -------------------------- We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered. Tom Stoppard From grahamd Wed Apr 21 23:01:14 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:01:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> One thing I'm faced with on a daily >> basis is the huge variety and unpredictability of aural taste. >> Students >> often surprise me, as, for example, they did by almost universally >> loathing >> the voice of Dylan Thomas. > > David, > Is it the voice? the accent? or the delivery, which might seem too > foreign in all its lushness? (Yes, pun intended.) I wonder if he > embarrassed them. Flat is good in some neighborhoods. . . . > > I've always wanted to teach a radio theater course but haven't managed > to work it in anywhere. Sam Beckett did a couple of wonderful radio > plays--__All That Fall_ is a glory. _Under Milkwood_. ZBS Studios > (_Moon Over Morocco_ and beyond) and the original _Hitchhiker's Guide > to the Galaxy_. How far back do you go for recorded poetry, and do you > have a listening list? > > Wendy > As far as I can tell, Dylan Thomas's reading style is just too formal and old fashioned/ theatrical for my students' ears. Nothing about the accent or the timbre, I don't think--it's the booming solemnity of it all. Students have no trouble with over-the-top emotionalism, such as is found in many slam performances. But they prefer vulgarity, humor, TV sensationalism--Thomas, they report, sounds "half dead," "pretentious," etc. My Poetry Aloud class, which I'm currently teaching for the 2nd time, is a loose grab-bag of notions, really, centered around the sonics of poems, styles & circumstances of performance, and various other aspects of the oral tradition. We begin with some groundwork in conventional prosody, read a lot of brief traditional lyrics, do a unit on Blake's songs, then rapidly jump into the 20th Century, touching down on the Harlem Renaissance, Beat Generation, Native American poetry, and on into hip-hop, slam, and spoken word. A unit on Etheridge Knight and African American oral traditions. Etc. The course concludes with student presentations, in which they are encouraged broaden our scope with material we haven't yet covered. I've seen everything from presentations on the difference between Jewel's page poems and her song lyrics to ones on the music of Dr. Seuss. It's probably the most fun I've ever had teaching. I play all sorts of recordings, anything I can get my hands on. A staple is the 4 CD set "Poets in Their Own Voices," which begins with Tennyson and Whitman(?), and proceeds up to the present. I'd like to do more with poems that have been set to music, but I'm still educating myself and slowly acquiring recordings (SUGGESTIONS MOST WELCOME--especially settings of Blake's songs). ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bardo Wed Apr 21 23:17:42 2004 From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:17:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud References: Message-ID: <004001c42818$5fa017b0$6d94c044@MULDER> Just before this came in, I wrote: stop, look & listen stand up and read what you thought when you thought about it, just that slow, the way John Wieners used to, or Creeley does, knowing the lilt or burden, the voice called for, called forth, all of it as if all the breath you've ever taken could issue at once and just once, right not that it would make the slightest difference in your so called life, but might for others catalyze the lifelong unspoken they like you came for in the first place Daniel Zimmerman 4.21.2004 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:01 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud > > >> One thing I'm faced with on a daily > >> basis is the huge variety and unpredictability of aural taste. > >> Students > >> often surprise me, as, for example, they did by almost universally > >> loathing > >> the voice of Dylan Thomas. > > > > David, > > Is it the voice? the accent? or the delivery, which might seem too > > foreign in all its lushness? (Yes, pun intended.) I wonder if he > > embarrassed them. Flat is good in some neighborhoods. . . . > > > > I've always wanted to teach a radio theater course but haven't managed > > to work it in anywhere. Sam Beckett did a couple of wonderful radio > > plays--__All That Fall_ is a glory. _Under Milkwood_. ZBS Studios > > (_Moon Over Morocco_ and beyond) and the original _Hitchhiker's Guide > > to the Galaxy_. How far back do you go for recorded poetry, and do you > > have a listening list? > > > > Wendy > > > > As far as I can tell, Dylan Thomas's reading style is just too formal and > old fashioned/ theatrical for my students' ears. Nothing about the accent > or the timbre, I don't think--it's the booming solemnity of it all. > > Students have no trouble with over-the-top emotionalism, such as is found in > many slam performances. But they prefer vulgarity, humor, TV > sensationalism--Thomas, they report, sounds "half dead," "pretentious," etc. > > My Poetry Aloud class, which I'm currently teaching for the 2nd time, is a > loose grab-bag of notions, really, centered around the sonics of poems, > styles & circumstances of performance, and various other aspects of the oral > tradition. > > We begin with some groundwork in conventional prosody, read a lot of brief > traditional lyrics, do a unit on Blake's songs, then rapidly jump into the > 20th Century, touching down on the Harlem Renaissance, Beat Generation, > Native American poetry, and on into hip-hop, slam, and spoken word. A unit > on Etheridge Knight and African American oral traditions. Etc. > > The course concludes with student presentations, in which they are > encouraged broaden our scope with material we haven't yet covered. I've > seen everything from presentations on the difference between Jewel's page > poems and her song lyrics to ones on the music of Dr. Seuss. > > It's probably the most fun I've ever had teaching. > > I play all sorts of recordings, anything I can get my hands on. A staple > is the 4 CD set "Poets in Their Own Voices," which begins with Tennyson and > Whitman(?), and proceeds up to the present. > > I'd like to do more with poems that have been set to music, but I'm still > educating myself and slowly acquiring recordings (SUGGESTIONS MOST > WELCOME--especially settings of Blake's songs). > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul Thu Apr 22 06:41:49 2004 From: paul (Paul C. Howell) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:41:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reading Poetry Aloud In-Reply-To: <200404220151.i3M1p2XE011374@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040422063824.02fac168@pop3.norton.antivirus> I wonder, David, what your students say about Stevens' own readings? And do they hear Sylvia Plath's BBC recording done a few days before her suicide? >That IS a surprise. What was their problem with Thomas' voice? > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Graham, David" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:08 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Keillor's voices > > > > > David, > > > His "radio voice" is one thing; his "poetry voice" quite another. > > > Anyone who could write & deliver PHC week after week for so many years > > > is an impressive character in my book. That doesn't make him a good > > > reader--ie, performer-- of poetry. > > > > > > Wendy > > ---------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 06:43:42 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:43:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Entry of Workshop Survivor References: Message-ID: <002301c42856$afcd91c0$77efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Good Poems/table of contentsInteresting non-combative (so far as I can see) essay by a poet with a masters in creative writing who was early published in American Poetry Review and may have gotten somewhere in his poetry career but became a mostly visual poet, Geof Huth. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 07:08:08 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 07:08:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Entry of Workshop Survivor (This Time With URL) Message-ID: <001f01c4285a$19eebae0$60efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Good Poems/table of contents Interesting non-combative (so far as I can see) essay by a poet with a masters in creative writing who was early published in American Poetry Review and may have gotten somewhere in his poetry career but became a mostly visual poet, Geof Huth (Yes, a friend of mine). http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JackKerouac25 Thu Apr 22 08:27:34 2004 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 07:27:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ^_^ meay-meay! Message-ID: I don't bite, weah! archive password: 43060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AttachedFile.zip Type: application/octet-stream Size: 21114 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 22 09:23:03 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:23:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reading Poetry Aloud Message-ID: <122.2e4e76a9.2db92137@cs.com> In a message dated 4/22/2004 5:41:04 AM Central Daylight Time, paul at tbhinc.com writes: > > I wonder, David, what your students say about Stevens' own readings? > > And do they hear Sylvia Plath's BBC recording done a few days before her > suicide? > Stevens was apparently a pretty poor public reader, on the few occasions he did give public readings, but his recorded voice is very beautiful, I think. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 22 09:26:40 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:26:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud Message-ID: Here's Stevens reading "The Idea of Order at Key West." http://www.poets.org/booth/AudioSource.cfm?45442B7C000C070C09 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 22 10:43:18 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:43:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: In a message dated 4/21/04 10:42:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > His whole critique--thanks, David, for posting the url-- is more > concerned with GK's Writer's Almanac than with the anthology. I'm in > full sympathy with him there. I avoid hearing the show when I can, but > now and then it ambushes me. Always a painful experience. Can you say more about that Wendy...I don't have that feeling about Writers Almanac, which likewise I catch only by chance. To me it's always a pleasure to hear a poem on the radio. Unless I'm misremembering the short segments, which I haven' t caught in a while, he starts off by naming various writers "born on this date," maybe elaborates a bit on one of their lives, then he reads the poem he's selected, after which he signs off with something like "Be well, do good work, etc." Finnegan From GrahamD Thu Apr 22 10:57:35 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:57:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Poetry Aloud Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AA@mail.ripon.edu> > ---------- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > In a message dated 4/22/2004 5:41:04 AM Central Daylight Time, > paul at tbhinc.com writes: > > I wonder, David, what your students say about Stevens' own readings? > > > And do they hear Sylvia Plath's BBC recording done a few days before > her suicide? > > > > Stevens was apparently a pretty poor public reader, on the few occasions > he did give public readings, but his recorded voice is very beautiful, I > think. ------------------------------ Just goes ta-showya: I've always thought of Stevens's recorded readings as death warmed over. Magnificent lines read as if they were crop reports. In my class we can't/don't play everything, naturally. I did spend a few moments one day comparing various famous voices (Yeats, Frost, Stevens, Williams, Stein) and asking which ones students thought were most effective as readers-aloud. Williams by a long shot. They hated Stevens. Yeats gave everyone the giggles, including me. With Stein they can't get beyond the content to focus on the voice, typically. Frost they find dull but not as funereal as Stevens. When I was in grad school Joe Langland used to delight in reading aloud, and his renditions of Frost and Stevens were the best I've heard. He could also do all of Keats's odes from memory, and did so at the smallest opportunity. Who are YOUR favorite readers-aloud, on record or in person? (Worst I ever heard live may have been Elizabeth Bishop.) ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From mmagee Thu Apr 22 11:25:44 2004 From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:25:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Michael Magee's Emancipating Pragmatism now available In-Reply-To: <1081196781.4071c0edad590@www.lostbaklava.com> References: <1081196781.4071c0edad590@www.lostbaklava.com> Message-ID: <1082647544.4087e3f8ca387@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi everyone, just wanted to let you know that my new book of literary criticism, _Emancipating Pragmatism: Emerson, Jazz and Experimental Writing_ is finally out. Hank Lazer posted this discount offer from University of Alabama Press to the Buffalo Poetics Listerv. I imagine no one would mind if you took advantage of it even if you're not officially on that List, being committed writers all. At the discount price of $22 it's a pretty damn affordable paperback. And did I mention it's fantastic!?! -Mike. Date:? Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:10:31 -0500 From:? hlazer To:? POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Reply-to:? hlazer at bama.ua.edu Subject:? Michael Magee's new book Poetics List -- The first of two new books in the MCP Series. Offered at a special discount to the Poetics List. Please contact me (back channel) if you are interested in reviewing Emancipating Pragmatism. Hank Lazer * Announcing the latest volume in the series Modern and Contemporary Poetics, edited by Charles Bernstein and Hank Lazer Emancipating Pragmatism Emerson, Jazz, and Experimental Writing Michael Magee A daring and innovative study that rewrites the story of American pragmatism. This book traces Emerson's philosophical legacy through the 19th and 20th centuries to discover how Emersonian thought continues to inform issues of race, aesthetics, and poetic discourse. Magee examines the ties between pragmatism and African-American culture as they manifest themselves in key texts and movements, such as William Carlos Williams's poetry; Ralph Ellison's discourse in Invisible Man and Juneteenth and his essays on jazz; the poetic works of Robert Creeley, Amiri Baraka, and Frank O'Hara; as well as the "new jazz" being forged at clubs like The Five Spot in New York. Ultimately, Magee calls into question traditional maps of pragmatist lineage and ties pragmatism to the avant-garde American tradition. *Co-winner of the 2003 Elizabeth Agee Manuscript Prize from The University of Alabama Press "Nowhere else, that I am aware of, can one read such an apt commingling of Emerson and Ellison, jazz and writing, Williams, Stein, Baraka, and O'Hara. . . . [Emancipating Pragmatism] is a remarkable synthesis of these figures who have been the subjects of disparate studies before, but whose linkages through philosophical approaches to pragmatism have never been so carefully examined in parallel." --Aldon Nielsen, author of Black Chant: Languages of African-American Postmodernism Michael Magee teaches at the Rhode Island School of Design in Providence. 247 pages, 6 x 9 ISBN 0-8173-5084-5 $27.50 paper ISBN 0-8173-1390-7 $55.00 cloth SPECIAL OFFER TO POETICS LISTSERV 20% DISCOUNT WHEN YOU MENTION THAT YOU ARE ON THE POETICS LISTSERV OFFER EXPIRES 31 May 2004 To order contact Elizabeth Motherwell E-mail emother at uapress.ua.edu Phone (205) 348-7108 Fax (205) 348-9201 or mail to: The University of Alabama Press Marketing Department Box 870380 Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0380 Attn: Elizabeth Motherwell www.uapress.ua.edu Magee/Emancipating Pragmatism paper discounted price $22.00 ISBN 0-8173-5084-5 cloth discounted price $44.00 ISBN 0-8173-1390-7 Subtotal ________________ Illinois residents add 8.75% sales tax ________________ USA orders: add $4.50 postage for the first book and $1.00 for each additional book _________________ Canada residents add 7% sales tax _________________ International orders: add $5.50 postage for the first book and $1.00 for each additional book _________________ Enclosed as payment in full _________________ (Make checks payable to The University of Alabama Press) Bill my: _________Visa _________MasterCard Account number _______________________________ Daytime phone________________________________ Expiration date ________________________________ Full name____________________________________ Signature ____________________________________ Shipping Address______________________________ City _________________________________________ State_______________________ Zip ______________ From JforJames Thu Apr 22 13:37:13 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:37:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <6d.27a17626.2db95cc9@aol.com> In a message dated 4/20/04 9:57:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > m with his (very standard) belief that it's silly to want the masses to > appreciate serious poetry any more than they appreciate serious science or > serious anything, but it'd be nice if they respected it. Otherwise, I'm > pretty much with James on what he said. > > --Bob G. > > So it's no longer epater le bourgeoisie but epater le common (wo)man? Soon > there ain't gonna be anybody to epater. > > I don't follow, Sam. I'm for writing for the intelligent few, not for > shocking the bourgeoisie or the commonfolk. Bob, I understand and sympathize with notion that "good" poetry is often difficult/challenging or "makes demands on the audience," as Kleinzahler says. I have no problem with that. But is that all there is? Wouldn't a steady diet of that poetry have an equally toxic effect? If you take the time to read his piece, filled as it is a good amount of stinging panache, you see how thin Kleinzahler's argument is. Kleinzahler's examples of laudable difficult poets he admires: Only one example, who is safely not even an American, English poet Roy Fisher. Otherwise to make his point he uses an obscure saxophonist Ayler, he blusters "No Antonin Artaud with the flapjacks, please," invoking the iconic French actor-poet who went mad, and quotes modernist English poet Basil Bunting from a lecture, "Poetry is no use whatever..." Of course it is of no use and yet....All of art is useless just as cooking is useless, since we could drag up tubers out of the ground and eat raw meat from bones of animals for our sustenance. (Maybe Good poems is the comfort food of cuisine.) All architecture is useless since we could live in burrows or under thatched lean-to's. (Maybe good poems is the Levittown of architecture.) Of course, all reading, expect for instruction manuals for power tools, is useless... Utilitarianism more developed is Pragmatism. And pragmatism suggests that if we do it, it must have value to us. In fact a good definition of "human" would be: Biped mammal with a penchant for useless activity. Finnegan From marcus Thu Apr 22 13:43:56 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:43:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Kin Ya Swaller? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4087CC1C.27044.F5E1BE@localhost> Found Poem: Kin Ya Swaller? Two hillbillies were having a shot of whiskey in a bar, quietly comparing it to their own shine. Suddenly, a woman eating a sandwich at a nearby table began to cough. After a minute it becomes apparent she is in real distress. One of the hillbillies asked "Kin ya swaller?" The woman shook her head no. "Kin ya breathe?" The woman who has begun to turn blue shook her head no. The hillbilly walks over to the woman who by this time has stood and is bent over the table in her effort to breathe, quickly lifts up the back of her dress, yanks down her drawers and gives her butt cheek a lap with his tongue. The woman is so startled that she has a violent spasm and the obstruction flies out of her? mouth. As she began to breathe again the hillbilly walked slowly back to the bar.? His buddy said, "Ya know, I'd heard of that there "Hind Lick Maneuver", but I ain't never seed nobody do it!" From Rsgwynn1 Thu Apr 22 14:18:50 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:18:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Poetry Aloud Message-ID: <84.2782ec2c.2db9668a@cs.com> In a message dated 4/22/2004 9:58:18 AM Central Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > Stevens was apparently a pretty poor public reader, on the few occasions > >he did give public readings, but his recorded voice is very beautiful, I > >think. > ------------------------------ > Just goes ta-showya: I've always thought of Stevens's recorded readings as > death warmed over. Magnificent lines read as if they were crop reports. > > In my class we can't/don't play everything, naturally. I did spend a few > moments one day comparing various famous voices (Yeats, Frost, Stevens, > Williams, Stein) and asking which ones students thought were most effective > as readers-aloud. Williams by a long shot. They hated Stevens. Yeats gave > everyone the giggles, including me. With Stein they can't get beyond the > content to focus on the voice, typically. Frost they find dull but not as > funereal as Stevens. > > When I was in grad school Joe Langland used to delight in reading aloud, and > his renditions of Frost and Stevens were the best I've heard. He could also > do all of Keats's odes from memory, and did so at the smallest opportunity. > > Who are YOUR favorite readers-aloud, on record or in person? (Worst I ever > heard live may have been Elizabeth Bishop.) A whole evening of Stevens might be a bit much, but that melodious, cadenced voice really captures the rhythms of "Idea of Order." My list of worsts: Alan Dugan Denise Levertov Bests: Maxine Kumin Richard Wilbur X. J. Kennedy Anthony Hecht And my friend Leon Stokesbury, who is a great performer, as, for that matter, is B. H. Fairchild. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Thu Apr 22 15:27:33 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:27:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Centrum's Pt. Townsend Writers' Conference Message-ID: <1e3.1e48ee30.2db976a5@aol.com> Subj: Update: Centrum's Pt. Townsend Writers' Conference Date: 4/22/04 1:44:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: keven at centrum.org (Keven Elliff) Reply-to: keven at centrum.org Register Today! (July 15-25, 2004) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Are you ready to have the time of your life? Register today for Centrum's Pt. Townsend Writers' Conference. Call 360-385-3102, or register online at www.centrum.org. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Centrum Experience * Faculty Focus: Wanda Coleman * Faculty Focus: Craig Lesley * The Conference The Centrum Experience ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For thirty years, writers from across the country have gathered at Centrum in a true community devoted to advancing the art of writing and understanding the writer's life. What sets this conference apart from the rest? Community. Discovery. Centrum is not a place of hierarchies, but rather a place that encourages exploration. Participants work closely with the distinguished faculty to open doors of perception, exploring new ways of communicating. Conference Homepage >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=986bb9n6.hy76lwn6.c7qhkzn6.kba6vun6.2843&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centrum.org%2Fworkshops%2Fwriters.html Faculty Focus: Wanda Coleman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We are excited to have Wanda Coleman on faculty this year. Ms. Coleman is one of the nation's most respected African-American writers. She was the first African-American to receive an Emmy in daytime TV writing, and is an award-winning poet and short story writer whose work has appeared in "American Voice," "Callaloo," "Fiction International," "MQR," "Obsidian Ill," "Other Voices," "Zyzzyva" and many others. She is known for her dramatic readings and has performed in numerous venues including The Folger Library (D.C.), The Nuyorican Cafe, The Manhattan Theatre Club, The Paterson Literary Center, Seattle's Bumbershoot Festival and The Smithsonian Institution. She has been featured on Garrison Keillor's Prairie Home Companion (NPR), The United States of Poetry (PBS), and Salon.com Audio. Ms. Coleman's work has appeared in over 70 anthologies, including "Best American Poetry," Terry McMillan's "Breaking Ice," "The Norton Anthology of Postmodern American Poetry," and "The Norton Anthology of African American Literature." She has been featured on Garrison Keillor's "Prairie Home Companion" (NPR), "The United States of Poetry" (PBS), and Salon.com Audio. More information on Wanda Coleman >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=986bb9n6.hy76lwn6.dvvrb9n6.kba6vun6.2843&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centrum.org%2Fworkshops%2Fwriters%2 Fcoleman.html Faculty Focus: Craig Lesley ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We are pleased to announce that Whitman College will present Craig Lesley with the Outstanding Alumnus of 2004 Award on April 24. The award goes to someone who has made significant contributions in his field--in this case literature and teaching-- and also contributed to the college. Mr. Lesley is the author of four novels; "Winterkill," "River Song," "The Sky Fisherman," and "Storm Riders," as well as the editor of two anthologies; "Dreamers and Desperadoes" and "Talking Leaves." His memoir, "Burning Fence," is forthcoming from St. Martins Press. "Winterkill" was selected as Best Novel of the Year by the Western Writers of America, and both "The Sky Fisherman" and "Storm Riders" were nominated for the Pulitzer Prize. More information on Craig Lesley >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=986bb9n6.hy76lwn6.evvrb9n6.kba6vun6.2843&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centrum.org%2Fworkshops%2Fwriters%2F lesley.html The Conference ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Two different workshop options and several housing options allow participants to tailor their conference experiences to meet individual needs. Each faculty member gives one reading and one lecture, open to all participants. Critiqued workshops are limited to 16 participants each, and are led by the faculty member of your choice. These workshops include a private critique session with faculty. Open enrollment workshops in poetry or non- fiction are more flexible, allowing participants to shift between genres. During the Conference, a number of gatherings are scheduled, including a welcome party and a book- signing reception with the faculty. Open-mike readings allow participants to share work informally, as do spontaneous readings in the open spaces or classrooms. Our 2004 Faculty includes: Poets Erin Belieu, Wanda Coleman, Martin Espada, Joseph Stroud, and Emily Warn; Nonfiction writer Judith Kitchen, and fiction writers Craig Lesley, Valerie Miner, and Bill Ransom. Complete faculty & class info >> http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=986bb9n6.hy76lwn6.to8zkzn6.kba6vun6.2843&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centrum.org%2Fworkshops%2Fwriters%2Ffac ulty.html From JforJames Thu Apr 22 15:42:17 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:42:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Poetry Aloud Message-ID: <54.2796cedf.2db97a19@aol.com> In a message dated 4/22/04 2:20:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > A whole evening of Stevens might be a bit much, but that melodious, cadenced > voice really captures the rhythms of "Idea of Order." > I agree with you, Sam, lovely touchs of melacholy in Stevens' voice in that recording that seem to fit well with the poem's seascape imagery. Finnegan From JforJames Thu Apr 22 16:49:56 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:49:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon Message-ID: <6.273eed71.2db989f4@aol.com> How are you feeling today?... http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/04/22/poet.deaths.reut/index.html From Faustina1 Thu Apr 22 16:54:30 2004 From: Faustina1 (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:54:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon Message-ID: <1e9.1e60a6ea.2db98b06@aol.com> I saw that. I have just about reached my allotment of threescore years and two, and so I am going to quickly write a technical manual. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 17:22:26 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:22:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <6d.27a17626.2db95cc9@aol.com> Message-ID: <008301c428af$eb0815e0$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > In a message dated 4/20/04 9:57:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > >I' m with his (very standard) belief that it's silly to want the masses to > > appreciate serious poetry any more than they appreciate serious science or > > serious anything, but it'd be nice if they respected it. Otherwise, I'm > > pretty much with James on what he said. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > So it's no longer epater le bourgeoisie but epater le common (wo)man? > Soon > > there ain't gonna be anybody to epater. > > > > I don't follow, Sam. I'm for writing for the intelligent few, not for > > shocking the bourgeoisie or the commonfolk. > > Bob, I understand and sympathize with notion that "good" poetry > is often difficult/challenging or "makes demands on the audience," > as Kleinzahler says. I have no problem with that. But is that all there > is? Wouldn't a steady diet of that poetry have an equally toxic effect? You know, James, I don't really know. Many thoughts spring to mind. One is that for ME composing for those I consider intelligent is more important than anything else. Also that SOMEONE should compose for them. But I certainly have nothing against composing for others. For children, for instance. Another thing I very much believe in is trying to compose for EVERYBODY, however absurd the idea is--by layering one's work, so that ordinary people can enjoy the top layer, perceptive people, both top and second layer, and those willing to work, both those layers and a third layer--with possibly other layers below. And it do believe it's possible to make an artwork that's is immediately pleasurable to just about everyone. There's much more I feel I could say, and hope to try to say if I ever get around to giving my opinion of the Gioia, Kleinzahler and Wimin pieces in POETRY--and, now, the Eric Ormsby piece in New Criterion which fits into the flatulence of the other three pieces quite smoothly. It's hard to know how to deal with the four pieces, though, because they have so little substance. Writing about what texts lack seems to me harder than writing about what they have. > If you take the time to read his piece, filled as it is a good amount > of stinging panache, you see how thin Kleinzahler's argument is. Absolutely. He has just about no argument--but I agree with his poorly supported opinion. > Kleinzahler's examples of laudable difficult poets he admires: Only > one example, who is safely not even an American, English poet Roy Fisher. > Otherwise to make his point he uses an obscure saxophonist Ayler, > he blusters "No Antonin Artaud with the flapjacks, please," invoking the > iconic French actor-poet who went mad, and quotes modernist English > poet Basil Bunting from a lecture, "Poetry is no use whatever..." Which is insane, if taken seriously. > Of course it is of no use and yet.... In one of my posts I argued that it was essential to psychological health. Or, more accurately, that SOME form of "useless" art is eesential to human health. > All of art is useless just as cooking > is useless, since we could drag up tubers out of the ground and eat raw > meat from bones of animals for our sustenance. (Maybe Good poems > is the comfort food of cuisine.) All architecture is useless > since we could live in burrows or under thatched lean-to's. > (Maybe good poems is the Levittown of architecture.) Of course, > all reading, expect for instruction manuals for power tools, is useless... > Utilitarianism more developed is Pragmatism. And pragmatism suggests > that if we do it, it must have value to us. In fact a good definition of > "human" would be: Biped mammal with a penchant for useless activity. > Finnegan I think "with a penchant for useless activity" is part of the definition of "mammal." Maybe of all living creatures, for all I know--do reptiles play? --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 17:50:06 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:50:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon References: <1e9.1e60a6ea.2db98b06@aol.com> Message-ID: <017d01c428b3$c8410d60$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I saw that. I have just about reached my allotment of threescore years and two, and so I am going to quickly write a technical manual. Janet I'd better, too. I was lucky--I finished my first real novel just before turning 63 (without realizing what a close call I'd had). I'd already written plays, which is what got me that far. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 17:51:18 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:51:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Entry of Workshop Survivor (This Time With URL and Entry Date) References: <001f01c4285a$19eebae0$60efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <018b01c428b3$f2d32f40$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Good Poems/table of contentsThe entry I'm talking about if for 20 April. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 7:08 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog Entry of Workshop Survivor (This Time With URL) Interesting non-combative (so far as I can see) essay by a poet with a masters in creative writing who was early published in American Poetry Review and may have gotten somewhere in his poetry career but became a mostly visual poet, Geof Huth (Yes, a friend of mine). http://www.dbqp.blogspot.com --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Thu Apr 22 20:26:04 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:26:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <57050-2200445230264157@M2W052.mail2web.com> I'm with Jim. I can't see anything Keillor is doing which is not good for poetry, and good to listen to. Original Message: ----------------- From: JforJames at aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:43:18 EDT To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In a message dated 4/21/04 10:42:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > His whole critique--thanks, David, for posting the url-- is more > concerned with GK's Writer's Almanac than with the anthology. I'm in > full sympathy with him there. I avoid hearing the show when I can, but > now and then it ambushes me. Always a painful experience. Can you say more about that Wendy...I don't have that feeling about Writers Almanac, which likewise I catch only by chance. To me it's always a pleasure to hear a poem on the radio. Unless I'm misremembering the short segments, which I haven' t caught in a while, he starts off by naming various writers "born on this date," maybe elaborates a bit on one of their lives, then he reads the poem he's selected, after which he signs off with something like "Be well, do good work, etc." Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards Thu Apr 22 20:29:37 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:29:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Poetry Aloud Message-ID: <244640-22004452302937206@M2W071.mail2web.com> Favorite readers? Well, I know it's an odd pick, but I like that recording of Yeats reading. And yeah, I love the Thomas recordings, both of his own work and others. I find his theatricality appropriate and delicious. There are so many good readers today. More and more, going to a poetry reading is good value for your entertainment dollar. Collins, Dunn, Kinnell, off the top of my head. Original Message: ----------------- From: Graham, David GrahamD at ripon.edu Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:57:35 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Poetry Aloud > ---------- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > In a message dated 4/22/2004 5:41:04 AM Central Daylight Time, > paul at tbhinc.com writes: > > I wonder, David, what your students say about Stevens' own readings? > > > And do they hear Sylvia Plath's BBC recording done a few days before > her suicide? > > > > Stevens was apparently a pretty poor public reader, on the few occasions > he did give public readings, but his recorded voice is very beautiful, I > think. ------------------------------ Just goes ta-showya: I've always thought of Stevens's recorded readings as death warmed over. Magnificent lines read as if they were crop reports. In my class we can't/don't play everything, naturally. I did spend a few moments one day comparing various famous voices (Yeats, Frost, Stevens, Williams, Stein) and asking which ones students thought were most effective as readers-aloud. Williams by a long shot. They hated Stevens. Yeats gave everyone the giggles, including me. With Stein they can't get beyond the content to focus on the voice, typically. Frost they find dull but not as funereal as Stevens. When I was in grad school Joe Langland used to delight in reading aloud, and his renditions of Frost and Stevens were the best I've heard. He could also do all of Keats's odes from memory, and did so at the smallest opportunity. Who are YOUR favorite readers-aloud, on record or in person? (Worst I ever heard live may have been Elizabeth Bishop.) ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards Thu Apr 22 20:38:06 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:38:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon Message-ID: <265000-2200445230386767@M2W035.mail2web.com> You feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself..... Original Message: ----------------- From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:50:06 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon I saw that. I have just about reached my allotment of threescore years and two, and so I am going to quickly write a technical manual. Janet I'd better, too. I was lucky--I finished my first real novel just before turning 63 (without realizing what a close call I'd had). I'd already written plays, which is what got me that far. --Bob G. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wwmorgan Thu Apr 22 20:40:34 2004 From: wwmorgan (Bill Morgan) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:40:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Readers In-Reply-To: <244640-22004452302937206@M2W071.mail2web.com> References: <244640-22004452302937206@M2W071.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040422193806.01bf4e28@mail.ilstu.edu> The two best readers I've heard were Seamus Heaney (in the late '70's) and Sharon Olds (in the mid-'90's). Bill Morgan From terzarima Thu Apr 22 20:55:29 2004 From: terzarima (terzarima at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:55:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon Message-ID: <146040-22004452305529659@M2W084.mail2web.com> I saw that. I have just about reached my allotment of threescore years and two, and so I am going to quickly write a technical manual. Janet I'd better, too. I was lucky--I finished my first real novel just before turning 63 (without realizing what a close call I'd had). I'd already written plays, which is what got me that far. Perhaps I owe my longevity and good health to also having once worked as a technical writer? I wonder. I'm about to turn forty and can report that I am healthy as a horse and still writing poetry, having put my swooning-drama-queen phase behind me at least a decade ago. Amazing how boring that was. Almost as tedious as the ubiquitous tempest-tossed relationship. Bleh. I like to joke that I am a better twenty-five-year-old now than I was when I was twenty-five. Muuuwaahh :-) Suzanne -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 22:38:39 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:38:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <57050-2200445230264157@M2W052.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <02b301c428dc$175f1540$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > I'm with Jim. I can't see anything Keillor is doing which is not good for > poetry, and good to listen to. What he's doing that is not good for poetry is giving prominence to the great dead and the never-adventurous or long no longer adventurous living poets while ignoring all adventurous living poets. If SOME other mass media voice were recognizing SOME adventurous living poets, this would not be bad. This is not the case. Therefore, he is simply adding his battalions to those the rest of the poetry establishment is using, unconsciously or consciously, to keep the creators of adventurous poetry in morale-dimming obscurity, with no hope of being rescued by any grant or lecture contract from having--most of them--to spend one third of their waking hours drudging out a living rather than making poems, and another third getting over the first third. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 22:40:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:40:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon References: <265000-2200445230386767@M2W035.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <02bd01c428dc$4d46d3a0$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > You feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself..... Hey, I'm feeling really good! The article ignored visual poets! --Bob G. > ----------------- > From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:50:06 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets prone to death swoon too soon > > > > > I saw that. I have just about reached my allotment of threescore years > and two, and so I am going to quickly write a technical manual. Janet > > I'd better, too. I was lucky--I finished my first real novel just before > turning 63 (without realizing what a close call I'd had). I'd already > written plays, which is what got me that far. > > --Bob G. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Thu Apr 22 22:50:23 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:50:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Readers References: <244640-22004452302937206@M2W071.mail2web.com> <6.0.2.0.2.20040422193806.01bf4e28@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <02c301c428dd$bb875af0$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I once heard Eloise Healy read, and thought she was a terrific performer. Totally self-assured, looked everyone in the eye, declaimed with appropriate, sincere emotion, etc. Alas, her poems weren't very good. Of course, the real masters are such sound and performance poets as Mike Basinski, the late Bob Cobbing, John M. Bennett, Bob Holman, Jack Foley and his wife, who make whose voices and physical movements are part, not just conveyances, of their poetry. --Bob G. From mandolin Thu Apr 22 22:57:30 2004 From: mandolin (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:57:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: <02b301c428dc$175f1540$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> References: <57050-2200445230264157@M2W052.mail2web.com> <02b301c428dc$175f1540$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: On Apr 22, 2004, at 10:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > keep the creators of adventurous poetry in morale-dimming > obscurity, with no hope of being rescued by any grant or lecture > contract > from having--most of them--to spend one third of their waking hours > drudging > out a living rather than making poems, and another third getting over > the > first third. > Bob, do you really think it's any different for any but a handful of poets of any kind? From wjbat Thu Apr 22 23:37:26 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:37:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8A1A9A29-94D7-11D8-9E1F-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> I don't have any particular bone to pick with Garrison Keillor, Jim. I don't like the way he reads poetry, and his taste doesn't often coincide with mine. But I'm not his intended audience. The same goes for the anthology. I'm not about to buy it; my book budget is more than spoken for. But I'm glad at the prospect of GK smuggling Bishop and Auden into homes where they'd otherwise never appear. I grew up in a house without books, except the ones I managed to scrounge; if I were a kid now in the same situation, I'd be devouring _Good Poems_ with great gratitude. If I find a copy when I'm stranded in an airport, I expect much pleasure from it. I'm puzzled by _Poetry_ and Gioa and Kleinzahler bothering to feature it, though, and by the arguments it's triggered here. I don't think it's especially elitist to recognize that poets who've spent a lifetime reading and writing might not have the same concerns as the general reader. I can be as dyspeptic as anyone about writing programs and the State of Poetry, but I try not to vent too much in public when I'm in that mood. It's almost always foolish and self-serving, and Kleinzahler falls right into the trap. So did Gioia, with Can Poetry Matter. But I couldn't have guessed from the discussion what I'd find in Kleinzahler's essay when I finally had a chance to read it. I guess I don't understand the subtext of this argument. Wendy On Thursday, April 22, 2004, at 10:43 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Can you say more about that Wendy...I don't have that feeling about > Writers Almanac, which likewise I catch only by chance. To me it's > always a > pleasure to hear a poem on the radio. Unless I'm misremembering the > short > segments, which I haven' t caught in a while, he starts off by naming > various > writers "born on this date," maybe elaborates a bit on one of their > lives, > then > he reads the poem he's selected, after which he signs off with > something like > "Be well, do good work, etc." > Finnegan Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. --Rumi From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 06:55:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:55:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <57050-2200445230264157@M2W052.mail2web.com> <02b301c428dc$175f1540$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <004001c42921$6f3f8570$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > On Apr 22, 2004, at 10:38 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > keep the creators of adventurous poetry in morale-dimming > > obscurity, with no hope of being rescued by any grant or lecture > > contract > > from having--most of them--to spend one third of their waking hours > > drudging > > out a living rather than making poems, and another third getting over > > the > > first third. > > > Bob, do you really think it's any different for any but a handful of > poets of any kind? Yes. Last year 38 poets got NEA grants (including Ron Silliman, I just noticed to my initial surprise--but that supports my view that language poetry is now becoming mainstream, if not mass-stream, which no serious poetry is). $20,000 each which is not much compared to what almost anybody makes per year but would have set me up for life. (And, yes, this is about me--as well as about all the other poets not able to be mainstream.) 38 poets is more than a handful, and a great many other poets got grants. It would be interesting to see a list of poets who have received a substantial grant at least once in their lives. I'll bet it's more than a thousand. However, I would amend what I said to "keep the BEST creators of adventurous poetry in morale-dimming obscurity." Also, the "morale-dimming" part is important. A grantless poet observing many others doing poetry like his getting some money and recognition will not likely be as discouraged as one who observes NO poet doing the kind of poetry he does getting money and recognition. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 07:13:55 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 07:13:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <8A1A9A29-94D7-11D8-9E1F-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <009901c42924$1308c5c0$8befa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I can be as dyspeptic as anyone about writing programs and the > State of Poetry, but I try not to vent too much in public when I'm in > that mood. It's almost always foolish and self-serving, To defend myself, though I'm SURE you didn't have me in mind, Wendy, I think that expressing one's opinions is rarely foolish, and never foolish if hardly anyone else is expressing similar opinions. Moreover, to comment any way at all on poetry will necessarily be self-serving, though not quite so nakedly as some of my comments. And it can work. The latest example is the language poets. As I just mentioned in another post, Ron Silliman won an NEA grant last year--after many years of "self-serving" griping about the domination of poetry by Iowa Worshoppers, etc. Even if there is no chance of its working, though, I think a person should speak out against unfairness, however self-serving it might seem or be. --Bob G. From jnewberry1974 Fri Apr 23 09:37:13 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Readers In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20040422193806.01bf4e28@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <20040423133713.54480.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> David Kirby at Florida State University is by and large the absolute best reader I've ever seen. He's got a kind of aw shucks country boy meets overyly-educated PhD thing happening. Virgil Suarez at FSU is entertaining, as well. Gaylord Brewer (Middle Tennessee State) came to my college when I was in grad school. He was a good reader, as well. He knew how to keep the crowd interested. He was even funny when taking questions. I think I asked him where he saw himself fitting into the different schools of thought in contemporary poetry: L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, New Formalism, New Narrative, or what. He responded, "I've spent most of my career dodging questions like that." He got a good laugh off that one. I saw Collins read at Georgia Tech last year. Entertaining, soft-spoken, very down-to-earth, he seemed suprised that we even liked his poetry. Stephen Dobyns was there as well. I liked him better than I liked Collins. Thomas Lux MCed and read, too. I'd never read anything by him, but that night, I bought _Street of Clocks_. Hearing him read made me want to read his work. Here's a David Kirby poem I heard him read http://www.poems.com/searckir.htm Jeff Newberry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash From jnewberry1974 Fri Apr 23 09:38:34 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: <02b301c428dc$175f1540$85efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <20040423133834.54702.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah. He's the Devil. That's the ticket. Jeff Newberry --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > I'm with Jim. I can't see anything Keillor is > doing which is not good for > > poetry, and good to listen to. > > What he's doing that is not good for poetry is > giving prominence to the > great dead and the never-adventurous or long no > longer adventurous living > poets while ignoring all adventurous living poets. > If SOME other mass media > voice were recognizing SOME adventurous living > poets, this would not be bad. > This is not the case. Therefore, he is simply > adding his battalions to > those the rest of the poetry establishment is using, > unconsciously or > consciously, to keep the creators of adventurous > poetry in morale-dimming > obscurity, with no hope of being rescued by any > grant or lecture contract > from having--most of them--to spend one third of > their waking hours drudging > out a living rather than making poems, and another > third getting over the > first third. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash From wjbat Fri Apr 23 12:12:26 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:12:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] William Meredith celebration In-Reply-To: <20040423133834.54702.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <034FFA83-9541-11D8-AE65-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> For Connecticut-area folks: There's a celebration of William Meredith's 85th birthday tomorrow (April 24) here at Connecticut College, New London. Panel & tribute in the afternoon, readings by Ellen Voigt, Ed Hirsch, and Michael Collier in the evening. Let me know backchannel if you want details or directions. Wendy Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Contemporary American Poetry Archive http://capa.conncoll.edu From grahamd Fri Apr 23 12:25:59 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:25:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: <8A1A9A29-94D7-11D8-9E1F-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> Message-ID: on 4/22/04 10:37 PM, Wendy Battin at wjbat at conncoll.edu wrote: > I don't have any particular bone to pick with Garrison Keillor, Jim. I > don't like the way he reads poetry, and his taste doesn't often > coincide with mine. But I'm not his intended audience. The same goes > for the anthology. I'm not about to buy it; my book budget is more > than spoken for. But I'm glad at the prospect of GK smuggling Bishop > and Auden into homes where they'd otherwise never appear. I grew up in > a house without books, except the ones I managed to scrounge; if I were > a kid now in the same situation, I'd be devouring _Good Poems_ with > great gratitude. If I find a copy when I'm stranded in an airport, I > expect much pleasure from it. > > I'm puzzled by _Poetry_ and Gioa and Kleinzahler bothering to feature > it, though, and by the arguments it's triggered here. I don't think > it's especially elitist to recognize that poets who've spent a lifetime > reading and writing might not have the same concerns as the general > reader. I can be as dyspeptic as anyone about writing programs and the > State of Poetry, but I try not to vent too much in public when I'm in > that mood. It's almost always foolish and self-serving, and > Kleinzahler falls right into the trap. So did Gioia, with Can Poetry > Matter. But I couldn't have guessed from the discussion what I'd find > in Kleinzahler's essay when I finally had a chance to read it. I guess > I don't understand the subtext of this argument. > > Wendy > A few thoughts about *some* of the subtext of the larger debate, at least from my vantage point--not intended as rebuttal or flame-fanning for anything posted here. As I guess I have already said, I think one thing the Gioia/Kleinzahler face-off is about (apart from an anthology that few people on this list, anyway, seem interested in reading and discussing) is indeed the whole vexed issue of "accessibility" vs. "elitism." I put the terms in quotes because they're hopelessly ill-defined as well as inflammatory. But we all know, I suppose, the terms of this debate, historically speaking--a continuation of the same impossible argument that occurred nearly a century ago between readers of, say, Eliot and Frost. In the service of sales and popularity, Frost was all too willing to encourage the absurd notion that he was an intellectual lightweight. In interviews he would play the folksy farmer and say things like "I am one of those poets who wishes to be understood"--getting his jabs in at Eliot, Pound, Crane, and the other apostles of difficulty. All the while, of course, Frost's many hard-nosed, allusion-filled, unsentimental lyrics and dramatic narratives somehow got filed, even in many critics' minds, under the banner of middlebrow comfort food. (As the similarly hard-nosed poems in Keillor's book generally go unremarked.) It wasn't until the late 1950s that Lionel Trilling condescended to point out the obvious--that Frost at his best was a strange and tragic poet and no lightweight at all. There are some intelligent readers who still haven't had that epiphany. I don't like Frost when he plays the yokel for easy laughs, and I don't much like Keillor when he does, either. Among other things, it tends to insult the intelligence not just of the professor, but of the common reader, too. But here's where some of my vehemence comes from: I like even less the outright contempt for the common reader that was the worst fault of the modernists, and is, of course, alive and well today under various banners. As if one ever must choose between Frost and Eliot. As if access to emotional content without the protective wrap of irony were identical to sentimentality. As if narrative--straight, no jump-cut, no ellipsis--were inherently outmoded. As if difficulty per se--a poem's refusal to provide the traditional pleasures of poetry--were the sole or chief mark of excellence. Etc. Kleinzahler's a sharp and wonderful poet, and I happen to like his poems more than Gioia's, generally. But I was disappointed to see that he had so little of substance to offer beyond re-drawing this tired old battle line. Even more disappointing that he couldn't tell the difference between Keillor's folksy radio act and what's actually in the book--rather like critics who persists in looking down their noses at the author of, oh, "Home Burial," "A Servant to Servants," "To Earthward," and "The Hill Wife." (By the way, Wendy, why *wouldn't* POETRY review a book like Keillor's? It's a widely distributed anthology, quite distinct from many others on the market despite various misrepresentations of that fact; and it perfectly poses certain questions about audience, accessibility, and so forth. I don't quite follow your comment about POETRY "bothering" to feature it, I guess.) ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 Fri Apr 23 13:36:52 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:36:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <126.3f784744.2dbaae34@cs.com> In a message dated 4/23/2004 11:25:46 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > It wasn't until the late 1950s that Lionel Trilling condescended to point > out the obvious--that Frost at his best was a strange and tragic poet and no > lightweight at all. There are some intelligent readers who still haven't > had that epiphany. I believe Randall Jarrell had made this point earlier, though Trilling's talk at R. F.'s 85th birthday celebration caused a bit of furor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Fri Apr 23 14:02:54 2004 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:02:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <71BD0346-9550-11D8-AE65-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> > (By the way, Wendy, why *wouldn't* POETRY review a book like Keillor's? David, I read the Gioa and Kleinzahler essays at the url you posted, and haven't read Wiman's essay. I haven't seen that issue of _Poetry_, nor any issue since Wiman took over, so I might well be off-base here. But I was under the impression that this wasn't a simple "review:" that Keillor's anthology was a pretext for some larger discussion. Why else would Kleinzahler's piece, which clearly isn't a book review at all, be paired with Gioa's? I don't find Frost less "difficult" than Eliot, and I wouldn't dispense with either of them. Narrative is vexed and difficult. Saying anything worth saying is difficult. I don't think we disagree on that score. But most of us here are both poets and readers, and I think we create a lot of muddle by confusing the two perspectives. I get various and complex pleasures from poetry; some of it feeds my craft, some of it feeds my soul, some entertains me. A lot of it bores me to tears. ( I thought Kleinzahler's claim that "art's exclusive function is to entertain" bizarre at best, evidence that vehemence had the better of him.) And I'm suspicious of claims that we can predict what will come across for "the common reader," whoever s/he might be. We were all common readers once, and wildly unpredictable; we're most of us more specialized readers now. Wendy On Friday, April 23, 2004, at 12:25 PM, David Graham wrote: > A few thoughts about *some* of the subtext of the larger debate, at > least > from my vantage point--not intended as rebuttal or flame-fanning for > anything posted here. > > As I guess I have already said, I think one thing the Gioia/Kleinzahler > face-off is about (apart from an anthology that few people on this > list, > anyway, seem interested in reading and discussing) is indeed the whole > vexed > issue of "accessibility" vs. "elitism." > > I put the terms in quotes because they're hopelessly ill-defined as > well as > inflammatory. But we all know, I suppose, the terms of this debate, > historically speaking--a continuation of the same impossible argument > that > occurred nearly a century ago between readers of, say, Eliot and Frost. > > In the service of sales and popularity, Frost was all too willing to > encourage the absurd notion that he was an intellectual lightweight. > In > interviews he would play the folksy farmer and say things like "I am > one of > those poets who wishes to be understood"--getting his jabs in at Eliot, > Pound, Crane, and the other apostles of difficulty. > > All the while, of course, Frost's many hard-nosed, allusion-filled, > unsentimental lyrics and dramatic narratives somehow got filed, even > in many > critics' minds, under the banner of middlebrow comfort food. (As the > similarly hard-nosed poems in Keillor's book generally go unremarked.) > > It wasn't until the late 1950s that Lionel Trilling condescended to > point > out the obvious--that Frost at his best was a strange and tragic poet > and no > lightweight at all. There are some intelligent readers who still > haven't > had that epiphany. > > I don't like Frost when he plays the yokel for easy laughs, and I > don't much > like Keillor when he does, either. Among other things, it tends to > insult > the intelligence not just of the professor, but of the common reader, > too. > > But here's where some of my vehemence comes from: I like even less the > outright contempt for the common reader that was the worst fault of the > modernists, and is, of course, alive and well today under various > banners. > > As if one ever must choose between Frost and Eliot. As if access to > emotional content without the protective wrap of irony were identical > to > sentimentality. As if narrative--straight, no jump-cut, no > ellipsis--were > inherently outmoded. As if difficulty per se--a poem's refusal to > provide > the traditional pleasures of poetry--were the sole or chief mark of > excellence. > > Etc. > > Kleinzahler's a sharp and wonderful poet, and I happen to like his > poems > more than Gioia's, generally. But I was disappointed to see that he > had so > little of substance to offer beyond re-drawing this tired old battle > line. > > Even more disappointing that he couldn't tell the difference between > Keillor's folksy radio act and what's actually in the book--rather like > critics who persists in looking down their noses at the author of, oh, > "Home > Burial," "A Servant to Servants," "To Earthward," and "The Hill Wife." > > (By the way, Wendy, why *wouldn't* POETRY review a book like Keillor's? > It's a widely distributed anthology, quite distinct from many others > on the > market despite various misrepresentations of that fact; and it > perfectly > poses certain questions about audience, accessibility, and so forth. I > don't quite follow your comment about POETRY "bothering" to feature > it, I > guess.) > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu ---------------------------- How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage? -Tung-shan From tadrichards Fri Apr 23 14:43:48 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:43:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <265000-220044523184348348@M2W044.mail2web.com> If obscurity is morale-dimming for the adventurous poets, perhaps they're in the wrong racket. Original Message: ----------------- From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:38:39 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler > I'm with Jim. I can't see anything Keillor is doing which is not good for > poetry, and good to listen to. What he's doing that is not good for poetry is giving prominence to the great dead and the never-adventurous or long no longer adventurous living poets while ignoring all adventurous living poets. If SOME other mass media voice were recognizing SOME adventurous living poets, this would not be bad. This is not the case. Therefore, he is simply adding his battalions to those the rest of the poetry establishment is using, unconsciously or consciously, to keep the creators of adventurous poetry in morale-dimming obscurity, with no hope of being rescued by any grant or lecture contract from having--most of them--to spend one third of their waking hours drudging out a living rather than making poems, and another third getting over the first third. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From tadrichards Fri Apr 23 14:54:14 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:54:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Readers Message-ID: <191690-220044523185414156@M2W087.mail2web.com> Mikhail Horowitz, who floats somewhere between poetry and standup comedy, is worth an evening (or more) of anyone's time. Original Message: ----------------- From: Jeff Newberry jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:37:13 -0700 (PDT) To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best Readers David Kirby at Florida State University is by and large the absolute best reader I've ever seen. He's got a kind of aw shucks country boy meets overyly-educated PhD thing happening. Virgil Suarez at FSU is entertaining, as well. Gaylord Brewer (Middle Tennessee State) came to my college when I was in grad school. He was a good reader, as well. He knew how to keep the crowd interested. He was even funny when taking questions. I think I asked him where he saw himself fitting into the different schools of thought in contemporary poetry: L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, New Formalism, New Narrative, or what. He responded, "I've spent most of my career dodging questions like that." He got a good laugh off that one. I saw Collins read at Georgia Tech last year. Entertaining, soft-spoken, very down-to-earth, he seemed suprised that we even liked his poetry. Stephen Dobyns was there as well. I liked him better than I liked Collins. Thomas Lux MCed and read, too. I'd never read anything by him, but that night, I bought _Street of Clocks_. Hearing him read made me want to read his work. Here's a David Kirby poem I heard him read http://www.poems.com/searckir.htm Jeff Newberry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From GrahamD Fri Apr 23 15:17:27 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:17:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> > From: tadrichards at prodigy.net > > If obscurity is morale-dimming for the adventurous poets, perhaps they're > in the wrong racket. ----------- Yup. Once you've dispensed with most of what a mainstream reader looks for in a poem, to turn around and complain that mainstreamers aren't appreciating you is, well, it's pretty funny, actually. The usual rhetorical move is to take one's lack of reputation as a badge of honor: if I'm not famous, I must be good. Circular reasoning, yes, but at least it's not self-contradictory. In any case, lack of "adventurousness" is no sure route to fame, either, I'm here to tell you. I'll match my own lack of reputation with just about anyone on this list. Let's have a neglect-off! Did I ever mention the year my royalty statement was in the negative column? Yes, more books were sent back to my publisher than were sold that year. . . . ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From GrahamD Fri Apr 23 16:02:26 2004 From: GrahamD (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:02:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2B1@mail.ripon.edu> Anyone else a fan of Frank X. Gaspar? He is high on my list of poets who ought to be better known. His *A Field Guide to the Heavens* has been one of the collections I've most enjoyed in the past few years. I recently learned, more or less by accident, that he has a new collection just out. Here's a sample: Bright Wings I was walking in the garden looking for the intermediaries between me and the clear light. I had left the hose running much too long. Something was eating holes in the ear-soft leaves of the morning glories. I saw for the first time that the neighbor was growing corn-the yellow shocks were leaning just above the cinder-block fence, and they looked delicate and scruffy, like city corn, like alien corn, and suddenly there was so much to be done, so much to put in order, not the ordinary business of loving and dying, but the ordinary business that comes bundled with them: Sunlight behaved perfectly in every corner, the shadows breathed in their one direction and told stories, our cat crouched in the flower bed aching to kill something: How do you explain being so convinced, so utterly taken by the idea that beauty is somehow moral? I mean in this day and age? I mean now when no one can even get that equation to hold up? But the ants have formed a black ribbon that leads to a dead snail. But the Pipers and Cessnas and Beechcraft are circling and banking for the airport with so much color and precision. But the dogs two houses down have heard the mail-carrier's foot, and they have erupted. This is not the argument I'm looking for. And I have been lazy. Tangerines and lemons have swollen and dropped from their impatient branches. They lie among the fern and the vine, bruised and mushy. They are being swarmed. They are being devoured. Frank X. Gaspar. *Night of a Thousand Blossoms*. Alice James, 2004. ============================================ David Graham Department of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From MillB Fri Apr 23 16:07:51 2004 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:07:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar Message-ID: <2d.3caa7eb1.2dbad197@aol.com> David, Frank is a great poet (and a pretty great guy too), so I second your nomination! Us "Portuguese" gotta stick together. . . Cheers, Mill I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters. Frank Lloyd Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Fri Apr 23 16:11:28 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:11:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lazar's The People's Poetry Message-ID: April must be time for taking stock...here's Hank Lazar's take on the state of the estate of poetry.... http://www.bostonreview.net/BR29.2/lazer.html Contemporary American poetry is atomized, decentralized, and multi-faceted, and the range of poetries and audiences is too varied to capture in a compact or singular history. It is difficult to know exactly what?s going on now in American poetry. But maybe this dispersion, this so-called loss of direction is a good thing. Perhaps, contrary to the laments, we are now living through a particularly rich time in American poetry?an era of radically democratized poetry. From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 16:17:27 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:17:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <20040423133834.54702.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d301c42970$0158f6a0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Yeah. He's the Devil. That's the ticket. > Jeff Newberry Right. I find one thing seriously wrong with what he's doing; ergo, that means I find everything wrong with what he's doing. Standard poet logic. --Bob G. > --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I'm with Jim. I can't see anything Keillor is > > doing which is not good for > > > poetry, and good to listen to. > > > > What he's doing that is not good for poetry is > > giving prominence to the > > great dead and the never-adventurous or long no > > longer adventurous living > > poets while ignoring all adventurous living poets. > > If SOME other mass media > > voice were recognizing SOME adventurous living > > poets, this would not be bad. > > This is not the case. Therefore, he is simply > > adding his battalions to > > those the rest of the poetry establishment is using, > > unconsciously or > > consciously, to keep the creators of adventurous > > poetry in morale-dimming > > obscurity, with no hope of being rescued by any > > grant or lecture contract > > from having--most of them--to spend one third of > > their waking hours drudging > > out a living rather than making poems, and another > > third getting over the > > first third. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 16:39:09 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:39:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <265000-220044523184348348@M2W044.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <015501c42973$0949dcf0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > If obscurity is morale-dimming for the adventurous poets, perhaps they're > in the wrong racket. --Tad Richards There are compensations. The thrill of making something new once in a while, for instance. Even simply the pleasure of the pursuit of beauty, whether successful or not. --Bob G. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 16:41:19 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:41:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <015f01c42973$56968760$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > If obscurity is morale-dimming for the adventurous poets, perhaps they're > > in the wrong racket. > ----------- > > Yup. Once you've dispensed with most of what a mainstream reader > looks for in a poem, to turn around and complain that mainstreamers aren't > appreciating you is, well, it's pretty funny, actually. > > The usual rhetorical move is to take one's lack of reputation as a > badge of honor: if I'm not famous, I must be good. Circular reasoning, > yes, but at least it's not self-contradictory. > > In any case, lack of "adventurousness" is no sure route to fame, > either, I'm here to tell you. I'll match my own lack of reputation with > just about anyone on this list. Let's have a neglect-off! Now you're in for it, Graham. > Did I ever mention the year my royalty statement was in the negative > column? Yes, more books were sent back to my publisher than were sold that > year. . . . What are royalties? --Bob G. From cc Fri Apr 23 16:44:47 2004 From: cc (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:44:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Four by Jorie G. In-Reply-To: <200404230451.i3N4p3XE022780@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: "C. E. Chaffin" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Four by Jorie Graham with brief and likely > prejudicial comments... CE, Thanks for posting these poems and for your willingness to look at them with an unprejudicial eye. I admit an equal and opposite prejudice: I love these poems. I have read most but not all of Jorie Graham's poetry. I admit also that I am attracted to what I do not understand and repelled (or plain bored) by what I do understand. Nature, I think, is the ultimate metaphor for art and God the ultimate metaphor for the artist. I do not understand Nature or God -- but because I see some semblance of pattern and order (even in chaos), and because the surface is often beautiful and beguiling, I am fascinated and drawn in. If we understand Homer, why do people keep translating his works? If scientists had unlocked all mysteries of nature, what would they do with themselves at their conferences? Etc. But this argument is obtuse, ambient. What I like specifically about J. Graham is the alternation between keen observation of surfaces, and reason-edged imagination that strips the surfaces to look at what is (or might be) underneath -- this inquiry undertaken in the spirit of curiosity, wonder, awe. In the case of "Le Manteau de Pascal", she envisions the body (physical-metaphysical) that fits inside. Ken Wilber says of the world "it's holons all the way down" -- Graham is trying to describe the nature of these holons, what they are, how they move. > Yet: "so full of hollowness, so wild with rhetoric ...." > > One can't improve on her last line as a summary of this poem, and > if you're > a fan no doubt you will think it ironic, but I think it unintentionally > ironic, therefore comic.... or I am underestimating her > self-mocking power? I have not yet witnessed an ironic bone in Ms. Graham's poetic skeleton. That lack of irony is one thing that makes her work (in my view) extremely fresh and original. (The same might be said of Barry Spacks, by the way, who sees irony as koan. [B, kindly forgive this generality!]:) So what is she talking about in the line quoted above? About the sky, made of air, that is invisible yet mediates all sound, therefore all discourse, including leaves and lawyers and everything on earth; but also, I think, she is talking about language itself -- not only her language, All Language, how it blusters, saying everything yet (from a more distant perspective, the perspective, maybe, of the sky) saying nothing. (The perspective of Macbeth at his defeat, but without the defeatism and without assuming an idiot-- JG is writing the transformation of Macbeth, his only possible salvation, which, as we all know, he misses.) She is not mocking humanity or the wind, not restating existential truth-- yet she seems to move beyond Romantic separation (see Pinsky on "Ode to a Nightingale"), affirming the power of language and its place in the inquiry, staying in her intricate reinvisioning of the common wonder that surrounds us-- leaving us to conclude as we will. This is my working theory only. Cc From reneea Fri Apr 23 16:49:15 2004 From: reneea (Renee Ashley) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:49:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2B1@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <002f01c42974$7134fe20$da66fea9@Barnette> I don't know Frank (and I'm not Portuguese) -- but I do really like his work! Students love it too. Renee From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 16:57:21 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:57:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Yup. Once you've dispensed with most of what a mainstream reader > looks for in a poem, to turn around and complain that mainstreamers aren't > appreciating you is, well, it's pretty funny, actually. My complaint is not that the mainstreamers don't appreciate me; my complaint is that the mainstream is, for all practical purposes, all that exists. > The usual rhetorical move is to take one's lack of reputation as a > badge of honor: if I'm not famous, I must be good. Circular reasoning, > yes, but at least it's not self-contradictory. I forget what kind of logical fallacy it is, but it's not circular reasoning. A. famous poets are poor poets; B.I am not famous; C. Therefore, I am a good poet. (One could be worse than poor, or better than poor but still not good.) > In any case, lack of "adventurousness" is no sure route to fame, > either, I'm here to tell you. Who said it was? You're repeating the same fallacy as the previous one, whatever it is. That adventurousness is a sure route to lack of fame until you're dead or might as well be, does not make unadventurousness a sure route to fame. --Bob G. From schroesd Fri Apr 23 17:33:28 2004 From: schroesd (Steven D. Schroeder) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:33:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <001001c4297a$9e7197d0$f6171543@STEVECOMPUTER> It's called "denying the antecedent." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent Even assuming "all famous poets are poor poets" is true doesn't mean there isn't a subset of the overall "poor poets" set that falls outside the "famous poets" set. Steven D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler > I forget what kind of logical fallacy it is, but it's not circular reasoning. A. famous poets are poor poets; B.I am not famous; C. Therefore, I am a good poet. (One could be worse than poor, or better than poor but still not good.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil Sat Apr 17 10:09:53 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:09:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens jokingly References: <200404170217.i3H2HI7f081784@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <40813AB0.3FF60B03@ix.netcom.com> Stevens? In a very personal vein, I like Stevens. His poems have always reminded me of spandex. Comfortable if the room itself is not too warm e.g. burning down. Also, Stevens is the poet I've read most and gotten the least out of. He's my Korsybski(sic). CP From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 17:44:34 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:44:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001001c4297a$9e7197d0$f6171543@STEVECOMPUTER> Message-ID: <01bf01c4297c$2cdab230$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> It's called "denying the antecedent." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent Even assuming "all famous poets are poor poets" is true doesn't mean there isn't a subset of the overall "poor poets" set that falls outside the "famous poets" set. Steven D. Thanks. Not that I'll probably remember it. --Bob G. > I forget what kind of logical fallacy it is, but it's not circular reasoning. A. famous poets are poor poets; B.I am not famous; C. Therefore, I am a good poet. (One could be worse than poor, or better than poor but still not good.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil Tue Apr 20 10:01:32 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:01:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <1e2.1e4106eb.2db68531@aol.com> Message-ID: <40852D39.62FCB4AC@ix.netcom.com> Answer: A Democrat In Today's Post: "Soldiers' Stories From Latest War: Arts Agency Giving Troops A Chance To Make History by Philip Kennicott FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/20/2004 6:50:01 AM Eastern Daylight > Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > > >> (In politics >> people can't understand why I see no significant >> differences between the >> Republicans and the Democrats the same way so many at >> New-Poetry can't >> understand why I see no significant differences between >> all the poets >> writing what I call Iowa Workshop poetry. > > Quick, who is more likely to write Iowa Workshop poetry, a > Republican or a Democrat? > > Jeffrey L. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Fri Apr 23 18:27:40 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:27:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In the main Message-ID: <1ab.233e1031.2dbaf25c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/23/04 4:58:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > My complaint is not that the mainstreamers don't appreciate me; my complaint > is that the mainstream is, for all practical purposes, all that exists. > Bob, I think that's what the "main" part stands for. Couldn't one say that notoriety is determined by a combination of four factors each weighted differently... Merit (but the various poetry constituencies have different standards) Effort (some people really do Work it, baby) Relationships (who you know) Luck (that tantalizing intangible) Which is pretty much how success in all fields works. Finnegan From bobgrumman Fri Apr 23 20:59:34 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:59:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In the main References: <1ab.233e1031.2dbaf25c@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c42997$6b8056f0$5cefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > My complaint is not that the mainstreamers don't appreciate me; my complaint > > is that the mainstream is, for all practical purposes, all that exists. > > > Bob, I think that's what the "main" part stands for. You think "main" stands for "only?" I'll come back to this (I hope). > Couldn't one say that notoriety is determined by a combination > of four factors each weighted differently... > Merit (but the various poetry constituencies have different standards) > Effort (some people really do Work it, baby) > Relationships (who you know) > Luck (that tantalizing intangible) > Which is pretty much how success in all fields works. You left out the most important factor, servility. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 07:55:59 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:55:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman Pre-Essay, Part 1 References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001001c4297a$9e7197d0$f6171543@STEVECOMPUTER> Message-ID: <00a301c429f3$1dcb48f0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Because I said I'd say something about the Gioia/Kleinzahler/Wimin essays in the latest issue of Poetry, and now about the Ormsby essay in the latest issue of The New Criterion, and perhaps about some of the other essays there, too, including another by Gioia, and because I have not yet seen a single essay or book in my whole life that fairly and even semi-comprehensibly describes the current poetry scene in America, I'm planning to write a fairly lengthy essay about it over the next few weeks. It will be a challenge for at least two reasons: the subject is complicated, and the difficulty of expressing views on it that won't be misunderstood daunting. Hence, I'm going to be posting trial versions of parts of it, and notes and questions here, and at my blog, to try to take as much advantage of the Internet as I can. My now nearly-three-month habit of posting a daily entry at my blog should prove of particular benefit. And this project should make keeping up with it easier than it sometimes has been. Okay, to start, I have a question: what would be the opposite of "a difference in kind?" This comes up because I will be dividing poets into two groups: those whose poems are different in detail (is that the correct, or a correct, term for what I want?) from others' poems, and those whose poems are different in kind from others' poems. The "stasiffenders" (those defending stasis in poetry), who will play a large role in my essay, seem to me to minimize the difference between the two; I perhaps exaggerate it. In any case, it's something that needs to be addressed. The value of doing something different in kind versus doing something different in detail is another question. Any help, comments, etc., will be appreciated. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 09:11:25 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 06:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, toot Message-ID: <20040424131125.EBF6C7265@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 10:44:38 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... Message-ID: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From hruggier Sat Apr 24 10:52:53 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:52:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <001001c42a0b$d2efbc30$c1099942@Helen> In grad school I had a job in the university library and some alum donated his collection of small press poetry books. I was assigned to go through the boxes and pull out what we should keep. Box after box, book after book - beautifully printed art deco through pop art color covers, wrappers, bound, and inside the same little four line stanzas - maybe three or four stanzas per poem, after the first dozen they all tasted alike. I was amazed at the care and attention this "poetry" had gotten and why? It was one of those days - a transforming experience you might hype it as. ----- Original Message ----- From: "CobbCoStudioArts" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... > CE, > > You have written, quite well, among other things. . ."I haven't the ambition, but I do admire those who do. Over and Out," > > To which I reply: "If you really have no ambition, you would not hang out with those who still do. There will always be room for the admirers, they are the audience we all seek." > > Bob > > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > > > --- "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > | > | > My complaint is not that the mainstreamers don't appreciate me; my > complaint > | > is that the mainstream is, for all practical purposes, all that exists. > | > > | Bob, I think that's what the "main" part stands for. > | > | Couldn't one say that notoriety is determined by a combination > | of four factors each weighted differently... > | Merit (but the various poetry constituencies have different standards) > | Effort (some people really do Work it, baby) > | Relationships (who you know) > | Luck (that tantalizing intangible) > | Which is pretty much how success in all fields works. > > | Finnegan > > Wise response, Finnegan. > > Effort, especially in networking with mentors, editors, public workshops, > commemorative readings, etc,. is paramount, I think. And don't forget to > praise everyone in public, even Helen Steiner Rice if she were there and > alive. > > Persistence is worth more than talent. Look at Lyn Lifshin (I bet you all > know her name: "Queen of the Small Presses," just as Gerald Locklin has been > called "King" of the same.. > > Many otherwise good poets go unknown for the simple fact that they lack the > desire to promote themselves and their work. > > You know it helps if you're Joyce's secretary, like Beckett, not to dismiss > his importance. > > Or Rodin's secretary, like Rilke. > > Anyway, no one would want to be my secretary and go more unnoticed than I! > > So it goes. Are you willing to pay the price for fame, in so far as fame > can even be applied to "this craft or sullen art"? > > Then again, "Privacy is the last luxury." --from a bad Elizabeth George > detective novel. > > Then the great thing about poetry is that no one will recognize you in > public! So you can have it all! > > Point is, do you really care, or do you just want to write a really good > poem? > > That's what always foils my ambition... more interest in creating and > perfecting than promoting. > > No sour grapes. Those, who like Ginsberg did, appear at every function and > avail themselves of every avenue of publicity deserve their renown. > > What history says is another thing. > > Yet if your work isn't out there, even history can't save you. Emily > Dickinson is the great exception. Lucky for Hopkins and Herbert, they had > Nicholas (Little Gidding founder, blocking on last name) and Robert Bridges > to salvage their work for posterity. > > But what most poets want is immortality. That takes a talent beyond their > time; they must exceed the vagaries of their age, overcome anachronism, > speak to all men for all time. > > Yet if they didn't publish in their lifetime, it's unlikely they'll be > discovered. > > As there are more poets now than ever, MFA programs churning out 20,000 a > year, and our memory and sense of history shorter than ever before as a > culture, best to go for the brass ring now. > > Alas! I haven't the ambition, but I do admire those who do. > > > Over and Out, > > CE > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tadrichards Sat Apr 24 11:18:22 2004 From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:18:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <410-220044624151822709@M2W099.mail2web.com> <> This is kinda why they call it the mainstream. Original Message: ----------------- From: Bob Grumman bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:57:21 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler > Yup. Once you've dispensed with most of what a mainstream reader > looks for in a poem, to turn around and complain that mainstreamers aren't > appreciating you is, well, it's pretty funny, actually. My complaint is not that the mainstreamers don't appreciate me; my complaint is that the mainstream is, for all practical purposes, all that exists. > The usual rhetorical move is to take one's lack of reputation as a > badge of honor: if I'm not famous, I must be good. Circular reasoning, > yes, but at least it's not self-contradictory. I forget what kind of logical fallacy it is, but it's not circular reasoning. A. famous poets are poor poets; B.I am not famous; C. Therefore, I am a good poet. (One could be worse than poor, or better than poor but still not good.) > In any case, lack of "adventurousness" is no sure route to fame, > either, I'm here to tell you. Who said it was? You're repeating the same fallacy as the previous one, whatever it is. That adventurousness is a sure route to lack of fame until you're dead or might as well be, does not make unadventurousness a sure route to fame. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From grahamd Sat Apr 24 12:03:54 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:03:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler In-Reply-To: <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: on 4/23/04 3:57 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > >> The usual rhetorical move is to take one's lack of reputation as a >> badge of honor: if I'm not famous, I must be good. Circular reasoning, >> yes, but at least it's not self-contradictory. > > I forget what kind of logical fallacy it is, but it's not circular > reasoning. A. famous poets are poor poets; B.I am not famous; C. Therefore, > I am a good poet. (One could be worse than poor, or better than poor but > still not good.) > >> In any case, lack of "adventurousness" is no sure route to fame, >> either, I'm here to tell you. > > Who said it was? You're repeating the same fallacy as the previous one, > whatever it is. That adventurousness is a sure route to lack of fame until > you're dead or might as well be, does not make unadventurousness a sure > route to fame. > > --Bob G. > Ah, well, once again my finely honed humor misfires. But that doesn't bother me. You know why? Because it just goes to show what a genius I am. Geniuses are always misunderstood. . . . I think I'll take a little break from this topic for a while. Anyone have any other Frank Gaspar poems they might care to post? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From lcrew Sat Apr 24 12:31:18 2004 From: lcrew (Louie Crew) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... In-Reply-To: <001001c42a0b$d2efbc30$c1099942@Helen> Message-ID: > In grad school I had a job in the university library and some alum > donated his collection of small press poetry books. I was assigned > to go through the boxes and pull out what we should keep. Box after > box, book after book - beautifully printed art deco through pop art > color covers, wrappers, bound, and inside the same little four line > stanzas - maybe three or four stanzas per poem, after the first > dozen they all tasted alike. > > I was amazed at the care and attention this "poetry" had gotten and > why? That's the way some of my neighbors feel about every book in the library. Some even graduate from college feeling that way. Lutibelle/Louie From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 12:33:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:33:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <410-220044624151822709@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <013a01c42a19$d11e9d50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > < that exists.>> > > This is kinda why they call it the mainstream. --Tad Richards As James told me. I didn't realize that "main" meant "sole." But we visual poets aren't too good with words. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 12:50:12 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 09:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <20040424165012.A391E725C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 12:55:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: Message-ID: <014f01c42a1c$ec7a85c0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > >> The usual rhetorical move is to take one's lack of reputation as a > >> badge of honor: if I'm not famous, I must be good. Circular reasoning, > >> yes, but at least it's not self-contradictory. The ratio of put-down to self-directed humor would have been lower if you'd said something along the lines of, "My own rhetorical move is to take my lack of recognition as a badge of honor," David. But do sometime explain what these royalty things are and how one can get into a position to have negative ones. --Bob G. > > I forget what kind of logical fallacy it is, but it's not circular > > reasoning. A. famous poets are poor poets; B.I am not famous; C. Therefore, > > I am a good poet. (One could be worse than poor, or better than poor but > > still not good.) > > > >> In any case, lack of "adventurousness" is no sure route to fame, > >> either, I'm here to tell you. > > > > Who said it was? You're repeating the same fallacy as the previous one, > > whatever it is. That adventurousness is a sure route to lack of fame until > > you're dead or might as well be, does not make unadventurousness a sure > > route to fame. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > Ah, well, once again my finely honed humor misfires. But that doesn't > bother me. You know why? Because it just goes to show what a genius I am. > Geniuses are always misunderstood. . . . > > I think I'll take a little break from this topic for a while. > > Anyone have any other Frank Gaspar poems they might care to post? > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Sat Apr 24 13:04:16 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:04:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar II Message-ID: Hobbes For he can leap, but he doesn't bother with that too much-- mostly he sleeps or chatters in the windows at birds out on the wires. I maintain that he is worthless, some misbegotten kin to a possum, and in fact he came from a bad litter, a bad neighborhood. There's something not right about him. How then to name him *Hobbes*, as my son did, though I lobbied for *Meatloaf*? We have an understanding. I don't make Hobbes out to be more than he is, which just is some wild thing with an impossibly tiny brain and no morals. For his part, he ignores me unless he thinks I have food. I enjoy the purity of this contract, for it guides me in my dealings with humans, which at any rate are few, but without much surprise or disappointment now that I've learned not to expect others to be better than I am myself, now that I've stopped raging at everyone else's smallness. We get what we deserve, mostly. I won't say I learned this from a cat, I won't try to make a tidy moral-nothing sweet or cloying. For he can entertain himself by staring at the wall or licking his body parts, which acts afford him great pleasure and from which I can derive no honest instruction. And he brings grief and terror to the household spiders, whom I have always liked, so he places me in an unsupportable position, a soft neutrality which ensures peace in no corner, justice for none but the strong. My dream is to one day be young and strong and garlanded with justice. Let the dead bury the dead, let the sparrows and starlings compose their conga lines out on the boughs and conduits-this just might *be* a world without end, feral and imperfect, though I admit I want to own it, I want to touch it, I want to curl up in it and sleep in it forever, as though I am loved for something beyond my control or choosing, as though even the dust over my eye is what I am dreaming and I know exactly what it means. Frank X. Gaspar. *Night of a Thousand Blossoms*. Alice James, 2004. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From barry.spacks Sat Apr 24 13:03:24 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:03:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] IT WORKS In-Reply-To: <200404241601.i3OG12XE004238@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040424094800.03695008@incoming.verizon.net> "Route to fame" (1) defame the competition stick them poor Doofusses with a dull name: Shakespeare & all that crowd, the "HO-HUM-ZZZZZ SCHOOL of antiquated UGH" "it works," claims one of the shortly-to-be-acknowledged -- categorize, categorize! Now, (2) repeat the claim of your own "school," plus lend it a glory-name like SHOCK 'N AW-SHUCKS or NEW-NEW or NOT THE SAME OLE SAME ah, it works: the others: "SHEESH!" your pals: "POW-BAM!" (and make off with the jam) it works: no need to provide word-work just work the complaint AGAIN "unfair, unfairly the prize control favors the drear, scorns the GENIUS-WOW" it works: "Unfair to the Genius-School!" "Unfair, this scorn of the New-Noo School!" (so Hang your Heads, mere poets). feeling a little better now and yes, anticipating in response (o woe) yet more of the good old "AGAIN," Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 13:03:42 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:03:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <20040424165012.A391E725C@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <016501c42a1e$1ab15030$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > --- "tadrichards at prodigy.net" wrote: > < that exists.>> > > This is kinda why they call it the mainstream. > > Tad and Bob G., > > While recognizing that mainstreams often have many tributaries, for practical purposes or not, they all have originated from the same head-waters, metaphorically speaking, on their way to the "poetic sea." Probably so, Bob, but my point is that only one seems to be showin' up on the maps the gu-mint be distrintin'. --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 Sat Apr 24 13:30:52 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:30:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman Pre-Essay, Part 1 References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001001c4297a$9e7197d0$f6171543@STEVECOMPUTER> <00a301c429f3$1dcb48f0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00d801c42a21$e5cbe9d0$f09c9951@MyPC> Bob: << Okay, to start, I have a question: what would be the opposite of "a difference in kind?" >> Does this parallel the qualitative/quantitative distinction? Robin From tadrichards Sat Apr 24 13:39:33 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:39:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <410-220044624151822709@M2W099.mail2web.com> <013a01c42a19$d11e9d50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000b01c42a23$1c1ab1f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Well, it's not sole. There's you. There are the poets you admire. There's Aram Saroyan, whom you at least admired at one time, who's gotten considerable notice, and who has even been published by a major publisher and is associated with a major university. There's Richard Kostelanetz, whose website points to an entry on him in the Encyclopedia Birtannica, and lists a staggering number of honors, grants (including Guggenheim, Pulitzer, and a bunch of NEAs. I won't go into Charles Bernstein, Lyn Heijenian, Joan Retallack, etc., since I assume they're lumped under the solestream/Iowa poets/all-sound-alike rubric. There are magazines publishing the work of the poets you admire, which means people have a chance to read it, and write essays about it, and interview the poets who are making it. A quick Google search of people you mention in your MNMLST article finds George Swede, at least, with an academic position, and the others Googleable to one degree or another. Solestream/Iowa Poets like Bernstein, Heijenian and Retallack, or the Howes, were at one time considered burstnormists themselves, but somehow or other they managed to get read and written about and given sufficient value-destroying honors to turn them into Iowa poets, so even in our solestream culture, that appears to be possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler > > > > < > that exists.>> > > > > This is kinda why they call it the mainstream. > > --Tad Richards > > As James told me. I didn't realize that "main" meant "sole." But we visual > poets aren't too good with words. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 13:39:56 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... Message-ID: <20040424173956.ED2D1396C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 13:45:58 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:45:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Publishing on Demand References: <105.429ee5d4.2d9865d8@aol.com> <00c801c41660$57a8ac80$cc737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> Message-ID: <01df01c42a24$0297ab60$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I just had a good experience with a publish on demand company that I thought I should tell you about. I think publish on demand is the only way to go for REAL poets. Just kidding. It certainly is the only way to go for poets like me. As I mentioned in another post, my outfit, the Runaway Spoon Press just published AMPERSAND SQUARED, a collection of pwoermds. I used a publish-on-demand company called BOOKMOBILE, a publish-on-demand printer you should be able to find with a search engine. A few days ago, I got the copies I ordered (after getting a proof copy). I think they did an excellent job (perfectbook, glossy-covered little books with nice paper for pages). I got 200 copies of the anthology, 4.24 by 5.5 inches, 92 pages plus flysheets. Cost, including shipping charges = $630. And I can now order more copies in batches of 25 for a little unders $3 apiece, not counting shipping. I originally, by mistake, asked for an estimate on a normal-sized book--5.5. by 8.5 inches. The cost was just about the same as the cost for the small-sized book, not twice as much as one might guess. My cost of mailing one copy to someone ordering the books will be about $1.50, making my cost about $4.50 a book. So I set the sale price at $10 a copy (because retailers and authors get a 40% discount, and there's a more than small risk that the whole printing will not sell out). One last thing: you have to send this printer print-ready files to get the price I got. Geof, the editior of the anthology, put it on pdf files, which is a simple process for uncomplicated manuscripts, it would seem, but you have to have Acrobat or something similar (I guess). I do. Geof, when he visited me recently, needed only a few minutes to teach me how to "convert" ordinary word-processing to pdf files. All you do is "print" them to something called (I think) the Adobe distiller. This latter you find in your computer's list of printers. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 13:49:04 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <20040424174904.3E915725C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From antrobin Sat Apr 24 14:24:53 2004 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:24:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler-- simple "Bravo" for David In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c42a29$767325a0$b3acefd8@Emily> Joan Houlihan? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of C. E. Chaffin Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 11:15 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler-- simple "Bravo" for David | | But here's where some of my vehemence comes from: I like even less the | outright contempt for the common reader that was the worst fault of the | modernists, and is, of course, alive and well today under various banners. | | As if one ever must choose between Frost and Eliot. As if access to | emotional content without the protective wrap of irony were identical to | sentimentality. As if narrative--straight, no jump-cut, no ellipsis--were | inherently outmoded. As if difficulty per se--a poem's refusal to provide | the traditional pleasures of poetry--were the sole or chief mark of | excellence. Bravo, David! --CE | _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 14:38:37 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:38:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman Pre-Essay, Part 1 References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A2AE@mail.ripon.edu> <016b01c42975$943ee9c0$28efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <001001c4297a$9e7197d0$f6171543@STEVECOMPUTER> <00a301c429f3$1dcb48f0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00d801c42a21$e5cbe9d0$f09c9951@MyPC> Message-ID: <020701c42a2b$5d073410$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob: > > << > Okay, to start, I have a question: what would be the opposite of "a > difference in kind?" > >> > > Does this parallel the qualitative/quantitative distinction? > > Robin I don't think so. . . . It's probably very simple but for some reason, I'm having trouble grasping it. Maybe it's just generality versus particular. I'm thinking about the iambic compared with anapaestic choice versus the metric verse compared with free verse choice. And, nowadays, the metric verse compared with the free verse choice versus the all-word poem compared with the pluraesthetic, or multiple-expressive-modality poem choice. An aside: yes, Barry, that "pluraesthetic poem" term is 87% of the reason I'm sitting as high up as I am today, with a chance now of learning what "royalty" means, though little chance of getting one. While on that subject, giving your school a catchy name, or being lucky enough to have someone give it ANY name, is one near-essential way of winning some kind of recognition, as the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poets did. It's also simple considerateness, like telling a stranger you've met your name. But you have to earn lasting recognition. Which reminds me of a question I've asked before but don't think anyone answered: has any group of artists ever done something entirely new by sane standards but NOT produced any artworks that entered the canon? Before 1950, I mean. Even the visual poets have poems in the canon--some of Apollonaire's Calligrams (by whatever spelling), for instance. Though it would appear that no visual poet has entered the canon as a visual poet. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 14:48:17 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:48:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <410-220044624151822709@M2W099.mail2web.com> <013a01c42a19$d11e9d50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000b01c42a23$1c1ab1f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <020f01c42a2c$b66d98e0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Mole, you clearly don't understand what I've been saying during my many months (years?) at New-Poetry. For instance, I say all Iowa Workshop poems sound essentially the same, not all mainstream poems. I'll say more about all this in the essay I hope to get going on soon. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 14:54:46 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:54:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Publishing on Demand References: <105.429ee5d4.2d9865d8@aol.com> <00c801c41660$57a8ac80$cc737450@yourpk9x5fuc06> <01df01c42a24$0297ab60$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <021d01c42a2d$b1b09090$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I'm reposting this because the typoes in my first version bugged me. I also added something trivial--the fact that I'll be sending people free review copies, which will cut into any "profit" margin. I just had a good experience with a publish-on-demand company that I thought I should tell you about. I think publish on demand is the only way to go for REAL poets. Just kidding. It certainly is the only way to go for poets like me. As I mentioned in another post, my outfit, the Runaway Spoon Press just published Ampersand Squared, a collection of pwoermds. I used a company called BOOKMOBILE, a publish-on-demand printer you should be able to find with a search engine. A few days ago, I got the copies I ordered (after getting a proof copy). I think they did an excellent job (perfectbook, glossy-covered little books with nice paper for pages). I got 200 copies of the anthology, 4.25 by 5.5 inches, 92 pages plus flysheets. Cost, including shipping charges = $630. And I can now order more copies in batches of 25 for a little under $3 apiece, not counting shipping. I originally, by mistake, asked for an estimate on a normal-sized book--5.5 by 8.5 inches. The cost was just about the same as the cost for the small-sized book, not twice as much as one might guess. My cost of mailing one copy to a customer will be about $1.50, making my cost about $4.50 a book. So I set the sale price at $10 a copy (because retailers and authors get a 40% discount, and there's a more than small risk that the whole printing will not sell out). Also, I'll be sending out review copies and other freebies. One last thing: you have to send Bookmobile print-ready files to get the price I got. Geof, the editor of the anthology, put it on pdf files, which is a simple process for uncomplicated manuscripts, it would seem, but you have to have Acrobat or something similar (I guess). I do. Geof, when he visited me recently, needed only a few minutes to teach me how to "convert" ordinary word-processing to pdf files. All you do is "print" them to something called (I think) the Adobe distiller. This latter you find in your computer's list of printers. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 15:08:32 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:08:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <20040424174904.3E915725C@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <023501c42a2f$8aba2120$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob G., > > You wrote: "Probably so, Bob, but my point is that only one seems to be showin' up > on > the maps the gu-mint be distributin'." > > --Bob G. > > To which I reply: "Perhaps we need more explorers, like Lewis and Clark, to map the territory." --Bob C. I bin voluteerin' for ever so long but the gu-mint won't fund me. Write 'em, will yuh. --t'othr Bob From JforJames Sat Apr 24 15:16:13 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:16:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] lists for writers Message-ID: <144.27b81fa2.2dbc16fd@aol.com> List Name Creative Writers Opportunities List (CRWROPPS) Purpose: This is a list that posts information for creative writers about publishing. List Type: Announcement (read only) Subscription: Requires owner approval Archive: Readable by anyone Created: Aug 24, 2003 Owner: Allison Joseph To Join: Subscribe here, or send an email to crwropps-subscribe at topica.com Stats: 1219 subscribers / 4 messages per day Categories: Business ?? |? Publishing WorkForWriters For more information: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WorkForWriters Post message: WorkForWriters at yahoogroups.com Subscribe: WorkForWriters-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: WorkForWriters-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner: WorkForWriters-owner at yahoogroups.com THE POETRY MARKET E-ZINE PUBLISHED MONTHLY http://www.thepoetrymarket.com ISSN:? 1539-9141 The website for the free monthly ezine, The Poetry Market Ezine, featuring poetry markets and contests. http://www.winningwriters.com/ WELCOME TO WINNING WRITERS Winning Writers finds and creates quality resources ? for poets and writers. Our expert online poetry contest guide, Poetry Contest Insider , ranks and profiles over 500 poetry contests. We sponsor two contests of our own, the Wergle ? Flomp Free Poetry Contest (humor poems) and the War Poetry Contest . We're also assisting the Tom ? Howard/John H. Reid Short Story Contest and the Tom Howard/John H. Reid ? Poetry Contest. Sign up for our free email newsletter ? and receive monthly news about free poetry contests and great literary resources. You'll also receive a quarterly supplement with special offers relating to poetry, books and writing. We'll keep your email address confidential, and you'll get access to our free online mini-guide, The Best Free Poetry Contests, just for subscribing. We've found over 50 quality free contests to date. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 15:26:15 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:26:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob Cobb: Still ambivalent but I plead guilty... poem "To the Giants" References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <026301c42a32$045a1380$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > To the Giants > > > > I see you in the exalted journals, > > astonished by your concrete subjects, > > startling imagery and veiled conclusions. > > Only you can do this. Others try > > to cage what has to soar. You tie > > one-pound-test to it and set it free. > > When the line breaks you have a poem. > > I?ve seen you write four hundred lines > > on roasted meat, a hundred on zucchinis. > > You can make poetry out of a dishcloth. > > > I sent my work to one of you once. > > Your secretary wrote me: Mr. S-- > > no longer comments on others' work > > because of his busy schedule. > > I thought your next book sucked. > > I swear the two events were not related. > > > > Maybe you remember > > how it was before you "made it." > > I thought if I could slide one poem > > beneath your discriminating nose > > I'd have a chance. Instead I drop > > rectangular white prayers in mailboxes > > and change commemoratives for luck. > > When the rejection slips arrive > > I file them under "What the editors missed." > > They read the same, invariably: > > "We regret your work does not suit > > our publication?s needs at this time." > > As if! As if they had needs! > > As if it were a matter of timing! > > > > I dream of an editor > > in a blue paisley suit who likes martinis > > rummaging through the "slush pile." > > She finds my poem about the possum.* (below) > > Her cat-eye glasses slip her bridge, > > eyes squint like commas. Another martini > > and she thinks "Why not?" --until the Glucks, > > Merwins and Ashberrys start levitating > > from her in-box to divide > > the sorcerers from the apprentices. > > > > > I have so little time, she thinks, > > and this is not the time for risks-- > > subscriptions are static, the board is short > > of funds, besides, even angstrom-thin pages > > could not accommodate all the deserving. > > Prides already war over my bleached savannas. > > If another craves entrance, let him > > bring rains like Elijah, make the ink run. > > > > --CE I like this poem a lot, and not only because IT'STHESTORYOFMY LIFE, too--and despite the fact that, yes, it's an Iowa Workshop Poem. One comment: how true it is that a stasiffender editing a publication will consider putting a SINGLE poem into it that is not mainstream risky--and pobably be RIGHT, because there seem, really, to be people who will drop a publication because it has something in it they don't like, and who will automatically not like anything more than minutely different from what they're used to I enjoyed the possum one, too, though not so much. --Bob G. From JforJames Sat Apr 24 15:40:14 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:40:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar Message-ID: <46.4c80f9dd.2dbc1c9e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/23/2004 4:03:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > Here's a sample: > > Bright Wings > > I was walking in the garden looking for the intermediaries > between me and the clear light. I had left the hose running > much too long. Something was eating holes in the ear-soft > leaves of the morning glories. I saw for the first time > that the neighbor was growing corn-the yellow shocks > were leaning just above the cinder-block fence, and they > looked delicate and scruffy, like city corn, like alien corn, > and suddenly there was so much to be done, so much to > put in order, not the ordinary business of loving and dying, > but the ordinary business that comes bundled with them: > Sunlight behaved perfectly in every corner, the shadows breathed > in their one direction and told stories, our cat crouched in the flower bed > aching to kill something: How do you explain being so convinced, > so utterly taken by the idea that beauty is somehow moral? > I mean in this day and age? I mean now when no one can even get > that equation to hold up? But the ants have formed a black > ribbon that leads to a dead snail. But the Pipers and Cessnas > and Beechcraft are circling and banking for the airport with > so much color and precision. But the dogs two houses down > have heard the mail-carrier's foot, and they have erupted. > This is not the argument I'm looking for. And I have been lazy. > Tangerines and lemons have swollen and dropped from their > impatient branches. They lie among the fern and the vine, bruised > and mushy. They are being swarmed. They are being devoured. > > > Frank X. Gaspar. *Night of a Thousand Blossoms*. Alice James, 2004. > David, I've seen Gaspar's work only in journals here & there, but I see he fits into that "talk poetry" (or ultra-talk) category you're fond of. Another term might be "meanditations." Bob's not the only one who gets to neologize. Goethe said that the poet whom the lexicon could keep up with was worth nothing. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Sat Apr 24 15:50:52 2004 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 12:50:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] TO BOB GRUMMAN--A PUBLIC CALL FOR WORK In-Reply-To: <026301c42a32$045a1380$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000201c42a35$79b20680$d3361c40@Emily> Bob, Send us some mathemaku, or other poems to The Canary. We are mostly not-mainstreamish. In fact, your small press magazine review thingie, (sorry, can't remember the name of the publication, but it's got your name in the editor slot unless it's another Bob Grumman) reviewed our second issue, and pronounced it brilliant. (Or something close). Send us some poems. I can't guarantee publication, but I'd like to see some of your recent work, and I'm sure the other editors would too. Best, Tony From JforJames Sat Apr 24 15:52:25 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:52:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <11b.31093f5c.2dbc1f79@aol.com> A Minor Bird by Robert Frost. I have wished a bird would fly away, And not sing by my house all day; Have clapped my hands at him from the door When it seemed as if I could bear no more. The fault must partly have been in me. The bird was not to blame for his key. And of course there must be something wrong In wanting to silence any song. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clitophon Sat Apr 24 16:11:48 2004 From: clitophon (Paul Murphy) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud, Bishop, Eliot and Bukowski.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040424201148.45545.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com> since Milton was blind it was hardly likely that he'd seen a Shakespeare play except in his yoof... I hardly think Milton was the sort of person to go to anything as frivolous as plays, best wishes, Paul Murphy --- "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: > > > Who are YOUR favorite readers-aloud, on record or in > person? (Worst I ever > heard live may have been Elizabeth Bishop.) > > > A whole evening of Stevens might be a bit much, > but that melodious, cadenced voice really captures > the rhythms of "Idea of Order." > > My list of worsts: Alan Dugan > Denise Levertov > > Bests: Maxine Kumin > Richard Wilbur > X. J. Kennedy > Anthony Hecht > > And my friend Leon Stokesbury, who is a great > performer, as, for that matter, is B. H. Fairchild. > > ********* > > I was never so disappointed as when I heard my > favorite poet, T. S. Eliot, read his own work. They > say of Joyce that he put "everything in" and Beckett > "took everything out." Eliot took everything out of > his poetry in reading it, I had to turn the program > off. And I was only 18. > > I thought Eliot's High Anglican drone did a great > disservice to his poetry, and like Milton, who in > "Il Pensoroso," as I recall, refers only to reading > Shakespeare-- not actually seeing a play-- I think > Eliot was a print poet, and what he heard in his > mind he could not translate into voice. > > Perhaps Bishop was the same way. I mean, she > spent what, seven years on "The Moose?" > > On the other hand, although I hardly consider > Bukowski a poet, in listening to him he nearly > convinces me. His stuff is much better heard than > read. > > --CE __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 16:13:21 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:13:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] TO BOB GRUMMAN--A PUBLIC CALL FOR WORK References: <000201c42a35$79b20680$d3361c40@Emily> Message-ID: <02b101c42a38$98eb5030$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Bob, > > Send us some mathemaku, or other poems to The Canary. We are mostly > not-mainstreamish. In fact, your small press magazine review thingie, > (sorry, can't remember the name of the publication, but it's got your > name in the editor slot unless it's another Bob Grumman) reviewed our > second issue, and pronounced it brilliant. (Or something close). > > Send us some poems. I can't guarantee publication, but I'd like to see > some of your recent work, and I'm sure the other editors would too. > > Best, > Tony See: you squawk enough and . . . Okay, Tony, a question or two: do you accept e.mail submissions? Poems in color? This last is a big reason I don't submit poems anymore, and even fail to send poems to people asking for them and guaranteeing publication. Almost everything I do is in color. But maybe I can find some that work in black and white. Go to http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html to see my most recent mathemaku. A dozen or so are in the "gallery" with an entrance there and eleven more stand-alones that are also part of a sequence are in a second gallery with an entrance there. I'd be interested in any comments about them. How about considering my poem about "the the?" which I've posted here? Another question: do you accept work published elsewhere? I may have a chapbook of Poem poems published soon, few of which have been published elsewhere. Would be glad to send you a sampling. In fact, you could probably be the first publisher of some, since the friend of mine who is doing the chap doesn't care whether they've been previously published or not. No apologies for not back-channelling this because I think it should be of poetry-biz interest to others. thanks for the invitation, Bob G From adead_poet Sat Apr 24 16:16:53 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:16:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Failure Message-ID: <200404242006.i3OK6nXE007583@wiz.cath.vt.edu> You got a new message. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: data.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From antrobin Sat Apr 24 16:20:23 2004 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:20:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] TO BOB GRUMMAN--A PUBLIC CALL FOR WORK In-Reply-To: <02b101c42a38$98eb5030$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <000701c42a39$992c3450$d3361c40@Emily> Bob, I'll check out your gallery, but here's the skinny-- We don't have funds to do poems in color right now, unfortunately. We'd prefer unpublished work. We are, however, very open to visual work (we'd love to have a Lanny Quarles cover)--but as long as it's inside the magazine, and as long as we're still poor, it'll have to be black and white. And for now (and I know, this is a bummer)--we'd prefer to receive snailmail submissions. If you have questions about these things, please backchannel (as we ARE pretty flexible if we like the work). Best, Tony p.s. that was your publication that reviewed us, right? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Grumman Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 1:13 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] TO BOB GRUMMAN--A PUBLIC CALL FOR WORK > Bob, > > Send us some mathemaku, or other poems to The Canary. We are mostly > not-mainstreamish. In fact, your small press magazine review thingie, > (sorry, can't remember the name of the publication, but it's got your > name in the editor slot unless it's another Bob Grumman) reviewed our > second issue, and pronounced it brilliant. (Or something close). > > Send us some poems. I can't guarantee publication, but I'd like to see > some of your recent work, and I'm sure the other editors would too. > > Best, > Tony See: you squawk enough and . . . Okay, Tony, a question or two: do you accept e.mail submissions? Poems in color? This last is a big reason I don't submit poems anymore, and even fail to send poems to people asking for them and guaranteeing publication. Almost everything I do is in color. But maybe I can find some that work in black and white. Go to http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/Blog/Bloghome.html to see my most recent mathemaku. A dozen or so are in the "gallery" with an entrance there and eleven more stand-alones that are also part of a sequence are in a second gallery with an entrance there. I'd be interested in any comments about them. How about considering my poem about "the the?" which I've posted here? Another question: do you accept work published elsewhere? I may have a chapbook of Poem poems published soon, few of which have been published elsewhere. Would be glad to send you a sampling. In fact, you could probably be the first publisher of some, since the friend of mine who is doing the chap doesn't care whether they've been previously published or not. No apologies for not back-channelling this because I think it should be of poetry-biz interest to others. thanks for the invitation, Bob G _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 Sat Apr 24 16:35:30 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:35:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud, Bishop, Eliot and Bukowski.... References: <20040424201148.45545.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c42a3b$af315760$f09c9951@MyPC> From: "Paul Murphy" > since Milton was blind it was hardly likely that he'd > seen a Shakespeare play except in his yoof... This is SOOOO stoopid. Mitlon didn't go blind till he was in his forties or fifties. Shite, think of "Il Pensorosa" or the link between MSND and "Comus". Gawd, I'm going to archive this email as One Of The Stoopidist Ever. Robin From JforJames Sat Apr 24 17:42:19 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:42:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright on NPR Message-ID: Scott Simon interviewed Franz Wright this morning on NPR. They were joined by the leader of a rock band ("ill lit") which is named after a Wright book... http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1850232.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sat Apr 24 17:58:33 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:58:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] James Merrill (1926-1995) Message-ID: <66.3f8ac895.2dbc3d09@aol.com> This poem by James Merrill (1926-1995) invokes the lorelei, the sirens of Germanic legend whose singing would lure sailors to shipwreck. It can be found in THE COLLECTED POEMS OF JAMES MERRILL, available in both hardcover and paperback from Knopf. *************************************** Lorelei The stones of kin and friend Stretch off into a trembling, sweatlike haze. They may not after all be stepping-stones But you have followed them. Each strands you, then Does not. Not yet. Not here. Is it a crossing? Is there no way back? Soft gleams lap the base of the one behind you On which a black girl sings and combs her hair. It's she who some day (when your stone is in place) Will see that much further into the golden vagueness Forever about to clear. Love with its chisel Deepens the lines begun upon your face. *************************************** From THE COLLECTED POEMS OF JAMES MERRILL by James Merrill ? 2002. Excerpted by permission of Alfred A. Knopf, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. *************************************** Related links: About THE COLLECTED POEMS OF JAMES MERRILL: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeRc0DXKYc0Wa0JWJ0A6 About James Merrill: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeRc0DXKYc0Wa0Ug70AF Order a copy of COLLECTED POEMS online: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeRc0DXKYc0Wa0Ug80AG Send another James Merrill poem as an e-card: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeRc0DXKYc0Wa0UhA0AQ Discuss "Lorelei" in the Knopf Poetry Forum: http://info.randomhouse.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/jeRc0DXKYc0Wa0TtQ0Ar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sat Apr 24 18:16:54 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:16:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud, Bishop, Eliot and Bukowski.... Message-ID: <1c8.18491080.2dbc4156@cs.com> In a message dated 4/24/2004 3:36:26 PM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > > From: "Paul Murphy" > > >since Milton was blind it was hardly likely that he'd > >seen a Shakespeare play except in his yoof... > > This is SOOOO stoopid. > > Mitlon didn't go blind till he was in his forties or fifties. > > Shite, think of "Il Pensorosa" or the link between MSND and "Comus". > > Gawd, I'm going to archive this email as One Of The Stoopidist Ever. > > > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Maybe not so stupid since the theatres were closed for over fifteen years after the ascension of Cromwell. By the time they reopened, Miltone had been blind for a decade. As a Puritan, would he have attended the theatre in his youth? Surely he saw masques and such at Cambridge. I don't have a Milton biography handy, but it's an interesting question. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Sat Apr 24 18:14:09 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:14:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <46.4c80f9dd.2dbc1c9e@aol.com> Message-ID: <408AE6B0.7FD82AEE@earthlink.net> Where there are "impatient branches," angry trees are not far behind. - Jim > In a message dated 4/23/2004 4:03:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > Here's a sample: > > Bright Wings > > I was walking in the garden looking for the intermediaries > between me and the clear light. I had left the hose running > much too long. Something was eating holes in the ear-soft > leaves of the morning glories. I saw for the first time > that the neighbor was growing corn-the yellow shocks > were leaning just above the cinder-block fence, and they > looked delicate and scruffy, like city corn, like alien corn, > and suddenly there was so much to be done, so much to > put in order, not the ordinary business of loving and dying, > but the ordinary business that comes bundled with them: > Sunlight behaved perfectly in every corner, the shadows breathed > in their one direction and told stories, our cat crouched in the flower bed > aching to kill something: How do you explain being so convinced, > so utterly taken by the idea that beauty is somehow moral? > I mean in this day and age? I mean now when no one can even get > that equation to hold up? But the ants have formed a black > ribbon that leads to a dead snail. But the Pipers and Cessnas > and Beechcraft are circling and banking for the airport with > so much color and precision. But the dogs two houses down > have heard the mail-carrier's foot, and they have erupted. > This is not the argument I'm looking for. And I have been lazy. > Tangerines and lemons have swollen and dropped from their > impatient branches. They lie among the fern and the vine, bruised > and mushy. They are being swarmed. They are being devoured. > > > Frank X. Gaspar. *Night of a Thousand Blossoms*. Alice James, 2004. > > > > David, I've seen Gaspar's work only in journals here & there, but > I see he fits into that "talk poetry" (or ultra-talk) category you're > fond of. Another term might be "meanditations." Bob's not the > only one who gets to neologize. Goethe said that the poet whom > the lexicon could keep up with was worth nothing. > Finnegan From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 18:17:57 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "To the Giants" single-spaced, apologies... Message-ID: <20040424221757.526823957@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jvcervantes Sat Apr 24 18:17:14 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:17:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob Cobb: Still ambivalent but I plead guilty... poem "To the Giants" References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> <026301c42a32$045a1380$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <408AE769.49A41E22@earthlink.net> Hey Bob, I've read hundreds of wildly different "Iowa Workshop Poems." - Jim, Iowa MFA, '74 Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > I like this poem a lot, and not only because IT'STHESTORYOFMY LIFE, too--and > despite the fact that, yes, it's an Iowa Workshop Poem. One comment: how > true it is that a stasiffender editing a publication will consider putting a > SINGLE poem into it that is not mainstream risky--and pobably be RIGHT, > because there seem, really, to be people who will drop a publication because > it has something in it they don't like, and who will automatically not like > anything more than minutely different from what they're used to > > I enjoyed the possum one, too, though not so much. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Sat Apr 24 18:24:06 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:24:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar Message-ID: In a message dated 4/24/2004 6:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > Where there are "impatient branches," angry trees are not far behind. > > That explains their bark. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sat Apr 24 18:29:16 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:29:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems Message-ID: 1. Pantoum of the Great Depression Our lives avoided tragedy Simply by going on and on, Without end and with little apparent meaning. Oh, there were storms and small catastrophes. Simply by going on and on We managed. No need for the heroic. Oh, there were storms and small catastrophes. I don't remember all the particulars. We managed. No need for theheroic. There were the usual celebrations, the usual sorrows. I don't remember all the particulars. Across the fence, the neighbors were our chorus. There were the usual celebrations, the usual sorrows Thank god no one said anything in verse. The neighbors were our only chorus, And if we suffered we kept quiet about it. At no time did anyone say anything in verse. It was the ordinary pities and fears consumed us, And if we suffered we kept quiet about it. No audience would ever know our story. It was the ordinary pities and fears consumed us. We gathered on porches; the moon rose; we were poor. What audience would ever know our story? Beyond our windows shone the actual world. We gathered on porches; the moon rose; we were poor. And time went by, drawn by slow horses. Somewhere beyond our windows shone the world. The Great Depression had entered our souls like fog. And time went by, drawn by slow horses. We did not ourselves know what the end was. The Great Depression had entered our souls like fog. We had our flaws, perhaps a few private virtues. But we did not ourselves know what the end was. People like us simply go on. We have our flaws, perhaps a few private virtues, But it is by blind chance only that we escape tragedy. And there is no plot in that; it is devoid of poetry. --Donald Justice ==================================================== 2. That Greater Than Which Nothing Even the plenitude is tired of the magnanimous, disciplined, beached eye in its thrall. Even the accuracy is tired--the assimilation tired-- of entering the mind. The reader is tired. I am so very tired. Who will this worry henceforth--radiant striation of hall light on pillowcase-- who will receive it-- couch, table, half-open drawer, the granulated dark in it, the cup, the three glasses--stupefying promises we are supposed to receive-- The glance? braiding and braiding the many promises of vision? The glance, however exiled, wanting nonetheless only to come full- term into the absolute orphanhood. *Do you really want to die?* Do you not maybe want to *sleep it off*, this time, again? Nothing moves but the cloth as you breathe. Don't look up at the four corners--the four conquering corners-- for the shape of mercy. It swarms. It composes gray-eyed walls on which the trapped light plays like fumes off kerosene--light, light everywhere, beckoning with its epic self- sameness-- all round you, roaming, rough in your shoulders, sparkling, regrouping--grain by grain, no oases, no conversation-- asking each granulated breath your deep sleep blossoms to yield to it, to marry up-- and other dimensions--sandy, windy--exact--unincarnate-- tireless dimensions-- metamorphic yet unpliant-- now sparkling, sparkling--it's the light, you can't keep it out, Room 363, its century of wide-eyed wing work splashing hither and hither like graffiti over the featurelessness--distending--distending the nature of the erasure--merciless in its lightheartedness in which the living is forgotten to be living-- Jorie Graham =============================================== 3. Waving Good-Bye I wanted to know what it was like before we had voices and before we had bare fingers and before we had minds to move us through our actions and tears to help us over our feelings, so I drove my daughter through the snow to meet her friend and filled her car with suitcases and hugged her as an animal would, pressing my forehead against her, walking in circles, moaning, touching her cheek, and turned my head after them as an animal would, watching helplessly as they drove over the ruts, her smiling face and her small hand just visible over the giant pillows and coat hangers as they made their turn into the empty highway. -- Gerald Stern ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jvcervantes Sat Apr 24 18:33:55 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:33:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems References: Message-ID: <408AEB52.60C7318C@earthlink.net> Exactly. Thank you, David. Can't say enough about Don. I always admired his work and I'll be damned if I didn't draw him for my very first workshop in River City. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > 1. Pantoum of the Great Depression > > Our lives avoided tragedy > Simply by going on and on, > Without end and with little apparent meaning. > Oh, there were storms and small catastrophes. > > Simply by going on and on > We managed. No need for the heroic. > Oh, there were storms and small catastrophes. > I don't remember all the particulars. > > We managed. No need for theheroic. > There were the usual celebrations, the usual sorrows. > I don't remember all the particulars. > Across the fence, the neighbors were our chorus. > > There were the usual celebrations, the usual sorrows > Thank god no one said anything in verse. > The neighbors were our only chorus, > And if we suffered we kept quiet about it. > > At no time did anyone say anything in verse. > It was the ordinary pities and fears consumed us, > And if we suffered we kept quiet about it. > No audience would ever know our story. > > It was the ordinary pities and fears consumed us. > We gathered on porches; the moon rose; we were poor. > What audience would ever know our story? > Beyond our windows shone the actual world. > > We gathered on porches; the moon rose; we were poor. > And time went by, drawn by slow horses. > Somewhere beyond our windows shone the world. > The Great Depression had entered our souls like fog. > > And time went by, drawn by slow horses. > We did not ourselves know what the end was. > The Great Depression had entered our souls like fog. > We had our flaws, perhaps a few private virtues. > > But we did not ourselves know what the end was. > People like us simply go on. > We have our flaws, perhaps a few private virtues, > But it is by blind chance only that we escape tragedy. > > And there is no plot in that; it is devoid of poetry. > > --Donald Justice > ==================================================== > > 2. > > That Greater Than Which Nothing > > Even the plenitude is tired of the magnanimous, disciplined, > beached eye in > its thrall. Even the accuracy > is tired--the assimilation tired-- > of entering the mind. > The reader is tired. > I am so very tired. > Who will this worry henceforth--radiant striation of hall light on > pillowcase-- > who will receive it-- > couch, table, half-open drawer, the granulated dark in it, > the cup, the three glasses--stupefying promises we are supposed to > receive-- > The glance? braiding and braiding the many promises of vision? > The glance, however exiled, wanting nonetheless only to come full- > term > into the absolute > orphanhood. *Do you really want to die?* > Do you not maybe want to *sleep it off*, this time, again? > Nothing moves but the cloth as you breathe. > Don't look up at the four corners--the four conquering > corners-- > for the shape of mercy. It swarms. > It composes gray-eyed walls on which the trapped light plays > like fumes off > kerosene--light, light everywhere, beckoning with its epic self- > sameness-- > all round you, roaming, rough in your shoulders, sparkling, > regrouping--grain by grain, no oases, no conversation-- > asking each granulated breath your deep sleep > blossoms > to yield to it, to marry up-- > and other dimensions--sandy, windy--exact--unincarnate-- > tireless dimensions-- > metamorphic yet unpliant-- > now sparkling, sparkling--it's the light, you can't keep it out, > Room 363, > its century of wide-eyed wing work splashing > hither and hither like graffiti > over the featurelessness--distending--distending the nature of > the erasure--merciless in its lightheartedness > > in which the living is forgotten to be living-- > > Jorie Graham > =============================================== > > 3. > > Waving Good-Bye > > I wanted to know what it was like before we > had voices and before we had bare fingers and before we > had minds to move us through our actions > and tears to help us over our feelings, > so I drove my daughter through the snow to meet her friend > and filled her car with suitcases and hugged her > as an animal would, pressing my forehead against her, > walking in circles, moaning, touching her cheek, > and turned my head after them as an animal would, > watching helplessly as they drove over the ruts, > her smiling face and her small hand just visible > over the giant pillows and coat hangers > as they made their turn into the empty highway. > > -- Gerald Stern > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Sat Apr 24 17:11:38 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:11:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <410-220044624151822709@M2W099.mail2web.com> <013a01c42a19$d11e9d50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000b01c42a23$1c1ab1f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <020f01c42a2c$b66d98e0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <002901c42a4d$24433850$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Yes, but you never really define Iowa Workshop poems except as "poems that all sound the same," in the way that a Gran Torino and a Continental look the same - i.e., neither of them is a Volkswagen. And you do more or less lump all mainstream poets together, and you have defined them as poets who get ALL the grants - mainstream as solestream. You've said that you aren't asking for non-mainstream poets to get the lion's share of recognition, just some recognition, and you've indicated that they don't get any. So by that definition, which is your definition, anyone who gets any recognition is mainstream. Which would include Kostelanetz and Saroyan as well as Bernstein and Silliman. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler > Mole, you clearly don't understand what I've been saying during my many > months (years?) at New-Poetry. For instance, I say all Iowa Workshop poems > sound essentially the same, not all mainstream poems. I'll say more about > all this in the essay I hope to get going on soon. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Sat Apr 24 18:48:38 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:48:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] furniture poet Message-ID: <1ad.22b00a7e.2dbc48c6@aol.com> Thirteen years ago, I had the slightly terrifying honor of talking with the venerated and mellifluous Rabindranath Tagore. We were speaking of the poetry of Baudelaire. Someone recited "La Mort des amants," that sonnet so appointed with beds, couches, flowers, chimneys, mantelpieces, mirrors and angels. Tagore listened intently, but at the end he exclaimed, "I don't like your furniture poet." I deeply agreed. Now, reading his writings, I suspect that he was moved less by a horror of Romantic bric-a-brac than by an uncontrollable love of vagueness. Tagore is incorrigibly imprecise. In his thousand and one lines there is no lyric tension and not the least verbal economy. In the prologue he states that one "has submerged oneself in the depths of the ocean of forms." The image is typical of Tagore; it is typically fluid and formless. --Jorge Luis Borges, from a brief review of "Rabindranath Tagore's Collected Poems and Plays." Translated by Eliot Weinberger in _Selected Non-Fictions: Jorge Luis Borges_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 19:18:43 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:18:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob Cobb: Still ambivalent but I plead guilty... poem "To the Giants" References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> <026301c42a32$045a1380$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <408AE769.49A41E22@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <033b01c42a52$7e4bfad0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Hey Bob, I've read hundreds of wildly different "Iowa Workshop Poems." > - Jim, Iowa MFA, '74 The problem is in how one defines "different" and "Iowa Workshop" poems. I doubt I'd consider all of the poems you consider "Iowa Workshop Poems" to be that. But I'd certainly be interested in some kind of guide to telling them apart--aside from author's name, individual style which every poet has, and subject matter. Length? Width? As for the word, "different," the cliche has it that no two snowflakes are alike, but who seriously thinks there's much difference between snowflakes? --Bob G. From grahamd Sat Apr 24 19:25:01 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:25:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional Message-ID: The phrase is a hot button, of course, maddening because it's both so widespread and so utterly imprecise. Near as I can tell, what users mean by it is typically something like "lyric-I poem ending in an epiphany." Occasionally the equally vague and contested term "confessional" finds its way into the mix. Don't get me started on "confessional" as a useless category! (Oops: too late: I already committed a book on the subject.) Sometimes free verse is also specified, though that certainly muddies the waters even further, I would think, given the legacy of folks like Justice, Berryman, & Lowell over the years at Iowa. As do all the non-lyric-I poems that have issued from Iowa workshops--actual, not symbolic. In any case, since "lyric-I poem ending in an epiphany" pretty much describes a large swatch of the canon, I've never found "Iowa Workshop poem" to be very helpful or needed as a category. To the extent that its users believe it to be self-evident, it misleads. To the extent that its users *do* have a firm definition in mind, they often disagree wildly. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 19:28:56 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:28:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems References: <408AEB52.60C7318C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <034801c42a53$eba9ea50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Exactly. Thank you, David. Can't say enough about Don. I always > admired his work and I'll be damned if I didn't draw him for my very > first workshop in River City. > > - Jim The Jorie Graham one surprised me, for I didn't think she did Iowa Workshop poems. --Bob G. From jvcervantes Sat Apr 24 19:32:34 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:32:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob Cobb: Still ambivalent but I plead guilty... poem "To the Giants" References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> <026301c42a32$045a1380$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <408AE769.49A41E22@earthlink.net> <033b01c42a52$7e4bfad0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <408AF912.E72A74C@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Hey Bob, I've read hundreds of wildly different "Iowa Workshop Poems." > > > - Jim, Iowa MFA, '74 > > The problem is in how one defines "different" different: unlike one another > and "Iowa Workshop" poems. No such thing. Bad poetry comes from any source. Are there U. Mass Workshop poems? U. Irvine Workshop poems? Visual workshop poems? > I > doubt I'd consider all of the poems you consider "Iowa Workshop Poems" to be > that. But I'd certainly be interested in some kind of guide to telling them > apart--aside from author's name, individual style which every poet has, and > subject matter. Length? Width? I get that very same spam! > > As for the word, "different," the cliche has it that no two snowflakes are > alike, but who seriously thinks there's much difference between snowflakes? Those who look closely? - Jim From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 19:42:30 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:42:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <410-220044624151822709@M2W099.mail2web.com> <013a01c42a19$d11e9d50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <000b01c42a23$1c1ab1f0$6501a8c0@MoleHQ> <020f01c42a2c$b66d98e0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <002901c42a4d$24433850$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <034e01c42a55$d0d3ba60$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > Yes, but you never really define Iowa Workshop poems except as "poems that > all sound the same," in the way that a Gran Torino and a Continental look > the same - i.e., neither of them is a Volkswagen. Do a better search. I've defined Iowa Workshop poems several times. I've also agreed with others who have difined them. Do a search of my new-poetry posts (if it's possible) using "epiphany" as a search word. > And you do more or less lump all mainstream poets together, and you have > defined them as poets who get ALL the grants - mainstream as solestream. To lump various groups together IN ONE RESPECT is not the same as considering them all the same. > You've said that you aren't asking for non-mainstream poets to get the > lion's share of recognition, just some recognition, and you've indicated > that they don't get any. I've often said that they get almost none. It's possible that on occasion, I've irritatedly said they get none, but no fair-minded observer would assume I meant it in view of all the times I've carefully said "next to none" or the like. In point of fact, the visual poets I know have gotten none that I know of--as visual poets. >So by that definition, which is your definition, > anyone who gets any recognition is mainstream. Which would include > Kostelanetz and Saroyan as well as Bernstein and Silliman. Kostelanetz has gotten little or no mainstream recognition as a visual poet. Saroyan got a grant for a partly visual poem thirty years ago. Many language poets are starting, quite properly, to get recognition, so are becoming mainstream. In any case, so what if there are a few exceptions to the rule that the mainstream ignores several schools of poetry? My point holds. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 19:45:44 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob Cobb: Still ambivalent but I plead Message-ID: <20040424234544.41966395E@sitemail.everyone.net> CE, Procrastination. I am trying once more to put together my own poems into some semblance/theme that might interest one or more contest judges/editors to the point of saying this fellow is worthy of our attention and deserving of a chapbook publication. I have had some success with getting poems pubbed on-line and dead-tree, and I think that getting a 48 to 50 page manuscript of poetry published is still a goal worth pursuing. I tried this a couple of years ago, in the month of April. I had a total of 26 submissions, including a couple of such manuscripts. Out of this effort six poems were accepted, and, a lot of money was spent on reading fees and postage. My take on all this is--there must be a better way! It is not that I ever expect to become rich and famous through my poetry, or my original works of art. . . VANITY, IS THY TRUE NAME, POET? By Robert R. Cobb Poets seeking publishers in vain, may pay dearly for the privilege. Poets who become household names, are finding different paths and other ways. Avoid the publish or perish mythology, vain glory makes a sad anthology. Pen names and aka's may provide anonymity, some famous poets are nameless entities. Pomposity is seldom worth the price, vanity, is thy true name, poet? Drawn in be contests, lured by prizes, entry fees and vain disguises. Appealing to some urgent need, to seek recognition or fame. Some publishers seem to be well-versed, to scam and scheme away the na?ve` poet's purse. True poetic justice would not be so blind, if more scoundrels were to be derided. Expose them all, for charlatans they may be, who poetically prey and practice their chicanery. Poetry Catamaran "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" Robert R. Cobb AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. http://rrcobb.tripod.com --- "C. E. Chaffin" wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "CobbCoStudioArts" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... | CE, | | You have written, quite well, among other things. . ."I haven't the ambition, but I do admire those who do. Over and Out," | | To which I reply: "If you really have no ambition, you would not hang out with those who still do. There will always be room for the admirers, they are the audience we all seek." | | Bob Dear Bob Cobb (just trying to remember "not Grumman"), I plead guilty. Perhaps twice a year I say to myself, "I must get an agent. I must apply for grants. I must lick stamps instead of doing lazy e-mail submissions. I should call W. D. Snodgrass who lives near me and whose number I've been given repeatedly. I should try Poetry and The New Yorker and The Paris and Antioch Reviews again." And then I start writing, we get out another issue of our little e-zine, I get $30 for a poem from an e-zine (yes, Virginia, some pay!), and I forget about my recognition seizure. But to quote _Lear_, "It will come" (again). Is it laziness, unconcern, fear of success or fear of failure? I don't know, I can never seem to get off the dime. I have a few fans, they write me sometimes. That's nice. Haven't published a book of poetry since 1997 and that's out of print. At least it wasn't vanity press. I have many manuscripts I've never sent out, keep meaning to create a website where folks can dowload them. Excuses? Regrets? I've had a few. Maybe I need to go to Dale Carnegie. ;-) Meanwhile, most of the time, I am not discontented. Yet the feeling will no doubt return, cyclically, until I do something or not, if I ever do. Anyway, below an old poem of mine that somewhat expresses this common, say cliche'd resentment of also-rans: To the Giants I see you in the exalted journals, astonished by your concrete subjects, startling imagery and veiled conclusions. Only you can do this. Others try to cage what has to soar. You tie one-pound-test to it and set it free. When the line breaks you have a poem. I?ve seen you write four hundred lines on roasted meat, a hundred on zucchinis. You can make poetry out of a dishcloth. I sent my work to one of you once. Your secretary wrote me: Mr. S-- no longer comments on others' work because of his busy schedule. I thought your next book sucked. I swear the two events were not related. Maybe you remember how it was before you "made it." I thought if I could slide one poem beneath your discriminating nose I'd have a chance. Instead I drop rectangular white prayers in mailboxes and change commemoratives for luck. When the rejection slips arrive I file them under "What the editors missed." They read the same, invariably: "We regret your work does not suit our publication?s needs at this time." As if! As if they had needs! As if it were a matter of timing! I dream of an editor in a blue paisley suit who likes martinis rummaging through the "slush pile." She finds my poem about the possum.* (below) Her cat-eye glasses slip her bridge, eyes squint like commas. Another martini and she thinks "Why not?" --until the Glucks, Merwins and Ashberrys start levitating from her in-box to divide the sorcerers from the apprentices. I have so little time, she thinks, and this is not the time for risks-- subscriptions are static, the board is short of funds, besides, even angstrom-thin pages could not accommodate all the deserving. Prides already war over my bleached savannas. If another craves entrance, let him bring rains like Elijah, make the ink run. --CE In checking my files, I found this was actually published in three different e-zines: Afternoon, Poetry Super Highway, and Tintern Abbey, the last now defunct. Don't know about the other two. (It was re-published as part of a *feature* in the latter two zines). I include the poem the first poem refers to* below. *The Intruder Evil seeped through floorboards. Only the dead could endure it. From jvcervantes Sat Apr 24 19:42:38 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 16:42:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: Message-ID: <408AFB6E.C002BECB@earthlink.net> > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 6:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > Where there are "impatient branches," angry trees are not far behind. > > > > That explains their bark. I can't top that. - Jim From tadrichards Sat Apr 24 19:52:20 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:52:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems References: <408AEB52.60C7318C@earthlink.net> <034801c42a53$eba9ea50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <00b401c42a57$2f9742a0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems > > > > Exactly. Thank you, David. Can't say enough about Don. I always > > admired his work and I'll be damned if I didn't draw him for my very > > first workshop in River City. > > > > - Jim > > The Jorie Graham one surprised me, for I didn't think she did Iowa Workshop > poems. > > --Bob G. Then "Iowa Workshop poems" is a phrase that bears no particular connection to the Iowa Workshop? From tadrichards Sat Apr 24 19:54:20 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 19:54:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <408AFB6E.C002BECB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00c801c42a57$76de0680$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 6:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > > > Where there are "impatient branches," angry trees are not far behind. > > > > > > > > That explains their bark. > > I can't top that. > > - Jim ...Ah, you poor sap. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 20:30:53 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:30:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional References: Message-ID: <036f01c42a5c$932b1ad0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > The phrase is a hot button, of course, maddening because it's both so > widespread and so utterly imprecise. > Near as I can tell, what users mean by it is typically something like > "lyric-I poem ending in an epiphany." Occasionally the equally vague and > contested term "confessional" finds its way into the mix. Don't get me > started on "confessional" as a useless category! (Oops: too late: I > already committed a book on the subject.) My impression is that a great many people have defined it, all similarly. I'll discuss it in my essay. > Sometimes free verse is also specified, though that certainly muddies the > waters even further, I would think, given the legacy of folks like Justice, > Berryman, & Lowell over the years at Iowa. As do all the non-lyric-I poems > that have issued from Iowa workshops--actual, not symbolic. An Iowa Workshop Poem is not any poem that has issued from the Iowa Workshop. > In any case, since "lyric-I poem ending in an epiphany" pretty much > describes a large swatch of the canon, I've never found "Iowa Workshop poem" > to be very helpful or needed as a category. There's much more to it than that. > To the extent that its users believe it to be self-evident, it misleads. To > the extent that its users *do* have a firm definition in mind, they often > disagree wildly. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 20:33:01 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:33:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to Bob Cobb: Still ambivalent but I plead guilty... poem "To the Giants" References: <20040424144438.4964B725C@sitemail.everyone.net> <026301c42a32$045a1380$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <408AE769.49A41E22@earthlink.net> <033b01c42a52$7e4bfad0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <408AF912.E72A74C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <037901c42a5c$df634800$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Okay, Jim, you know what "different" means. Now tell me what its use is, since by your standards nothing is not different. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 20:38:18 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:38:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems References: <408AEB52.60C7318C@earthlink.net> <034801c42a53$eba9ea50$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <00b401c42a57$2f9742a0$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <038701c42a5d$9c31efe0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:28 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Thank you, David. Can't say enough about Don. I always > > > admired his work and I'll be damned if I didn't draw him for my very > > > first workshop in River City. > > > > > > - Jim > > > > The Jorie Graham one surprised me, for I didn't think she did Iowa > Workshop > > poems. > > > > --Bob G. > > > Then "Iowa Workshop poems" is a phrase that bears no particular connection > to the Iowa Workshop? It is a kind of poem that the Iowa Workshop became famous for teaching but became widespread. I think such poems were written a generation or more before the Iowa Workshop. The use of the term is a good example of why defining types of poetry on the basis of where they originated or when or who was involved instead of on the basis of what they are is foolish. --Bob G. From jvcervantes Sat Apr 24 20:57:12 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:57:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <408AFB6E.C002BECB@earthlink.net> <00c801c42a57$76de0680$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <408B0CE8.BB4ECE59@earthlink.net> The Old Mole wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:42 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 6:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > JforJames at aol.com writes: > > > > > > Where there are "impatient branches," angry trees are not far > behind. > > > > > > > > > > > > That explains their bark. > > > > I can't top that. > > > > - Jim > > ...Ah, you poor sap. Maybe, but you can't deny my roots. - Jim From bobgrumman Sat Apr 24 21:06:04 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:06:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A brief clinical note on the Reuters article on poets dying young... References: Message-ID: <039e01c42a61$7dffffe0$44efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Stevens, a depressive!? I'll never believe that. Unless by "dpressive" is meant simply someone who sometimes is more unhappy than most other people generally get. He had to have been supremely happy at times, however. I think all creative artists of any significance have periods of being borderline, mild or full-scale manic-depressives. --Bob G. From jvcervantes Sat Apr 24 21:04:01 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:04:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <408AFB6E.C002BECB@earthlink.net> <00c801c42a57$76de0680$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <408B0CE8.BB4ECE59@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <408B0E80.AEB00734@earthlink.net> James Cervantes wrote: > > The Old Mole wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James Cervantes" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 6:18:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > JforJames at aol.com writes: > > > > > > > > Where there are "impatient branches," angry trees are not far > > behind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That explains their bark. > > > > > > I can't top that. > > > > > > - Jim > > > > ...Ah, you poor sap. > > Maybe, but you can't deny my roots. On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk and leave. - Jim From FanwoodJEL Sat Apr 24 21:09:30 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:09:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar Message-ID: <1e4.1e703a6b.2dbc69ca@aol.com> In a message dated 4/24/2004 9:08:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk and leave. - Jim We'll all pine for you. JL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sbmontana Sat Apr 24 23:10:05 2004 From: sbmontana (Sharon Brogan) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:10:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional; addendum "PEMLODs" References: Message-ID: <8F313394.3605E11@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:31:29 -0600, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > Anyway, here's my term: > > PEMLODs > > "Personal Emotive Monologues with Lots of (concrete) Details" C.E., I remember seeing this (from you) many years ago, when I did my first, brief excursion on the web. I shuddered then, in fear that this summed up my own work. I still shudder. Sharon Brogan http://sbpoet.com From CobbCoStudioArts Sat Apr 24 23:56:50 2004 From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 20:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler Message-ID: <20040425035650.DC33C397C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames Sat Apr 24 23:56:54 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:56:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional; addendum "PEMLODs" Message-ID: In a message dated 4/24/2004 11:10:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, sbmontana at gmail.com writes: > Anyway, here's my term: > > > >PEMLODs > > > >"Personal Emotive Monologues with Lots of (concrete) Details" > > C.E., I remember seeing this (from you) many years ago, when I did my > first, brief excursion on the web. I shuddered then, in fear that > this summed up my own work. > > But this definition is also broad enough to be a definition of lyric poetry and about 3/4's of the canon. Is PEMLOD a "period style" or a primary characteristic of the art? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil Sun Apr 25 00:23:04 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:23:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional; addendum "PEMLODs" References: Message-ID: <408B3D27.E4E8B1D3@ix.netcom.com> Finnegan, Where's this survey from? I mean the 75% and all. CP JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/24/2004 11:10:34 PM Eastern Standard > Time, sbmontana at gmail.com writes: > > >> Anyway, here's my term: >> > >> >PEMLODs >> > >> >"Personal Emotive Monologues with Lots of (concrete) >> Details" >> >> C.E., I remember seeing this (from you) many years ago, >> when I did my >> first, brief excursion on the web. I shuddered then, in >> fear that >> this summed up my own work. >> > > But this definition is also broad enough to be a > definition of lyric > poetry and about 3/4's of the canon. Is PEMLOD a "period > style" > or a primary characteristic of the art? > Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Sun Apr 25 02:28:52 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:28:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] visual thesaurus... In-Reply-To: References: <1ab.233e1031.2dbaf25c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040425012818.P6180@kpaul.spinweb.net> not sure if i would pay for it, but they have a free trial... http://www.visualthesaurus.com/index.jsp -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ From kpaul Sun Apr 25 02:55:48 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:55:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Last Night of the Earth Poems ... was Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud, Bishop, Eliot and Bukowski.... In-Reply-To: References: <84.2782ec2c.2db9668a@cs.com> Message-ID: <20040425015139.I6180@kpaul.spinweb.net> ouch. while hank chinaski was awful as a writer of fiction, his poesy could knock the socks off of most modern american so called 'poetry.' why is he not a poet to you? ------------ it takes a lot of desperation dissatisfaction and disillusion to write a few good poems. it's not for everybody either to write it or even to read it. ------------- --kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, C. E. Chaffin wrote: > On the other hand, although I hardly consider Bukowski a poet, in listening to him he nearly convinces me. His stuff is much better heard than read. > > --CE From robin.hamilton2 Sun Apr 25 05:58:50 2004 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:58:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Aloud, Bishop, Eliot and Bukowski.... References: <1c8.18491080.2dbc4156@cs.com> Message-ID: <003601c42aab$e8c0a510$2b9f9951@MyPC> << This is SOOOO stoopid. SNIP Maybe not so stupid since the theatres were closed for over fifteen years after the ascension of Cromwell. By the time they reopened, Miltone had been blind for a decade. As a Puritan, would he have attended the theatre in his youth? Surely he saw masques and such at Cambridge. I don't have a Milton biography handy, but it's an interesting question. >> First of all I want to apologise to the list, and especially to Paul, for the gratuitously offensive tone of my post -- I was, as they say, a little tired and emtional when I wrote it, but that's no excuse. I'll try not to do it again. But to the substance of the matter at hand ... Milton published a sonnet "On Shakespeare" ('What needs my Shakespeare for his honoured bones ...") in the Second Folio in 1632. This isn't conclusive, as the reference could simply be to the printed text of Shakespeare's works. However, in "L'Allegro", if we take this as biographical, he does describe himself as going to the theatre: Then to the well-trod stage anon If Jonson's learned Sock be on Or sweetest Shakespeare fancies childe, Warble his native Wood-notes wilde ... "Comus" (A Masque at Ludlow) was performed in 1634, and I think shows pretty heavy debts to +Midsummer Night's Dream+. Milton would be about thirty-five (he was born in 1608) when the theatres were closed during the Protectorate. I'd agree that it's wholy unlikely, blindness apart, that he would go to the theatre after the Restoration, but seems fairly conclusive that he went when he was younger. The only two playwrights he mentions by name are Jonson and Shakespeare. Like Sam, I don't have a biography of Milton to hand, but I don't think there's much more ducumentation relevant to the issue other than I've given above, so perhaps the question is more open than I was prepared to admit. Robin Hamilton From bobgrumman Sun Apr 25 06:35:46 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 06:35:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia vs. Kleinzahler References: <20040425035650.DC33C397C@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <003f01c42ab1$139a6500$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > --t'othr Bob, > > You need to find a sponsor, lay out your proposal, and sell your ideas. A bit easier said than done, wouldn't you agree, Bob? > Of course, to accomplish this you will need to appeal to a targeted audience. I might be in line to order one of your books. Ten dollars, you say? Right--for the pwoermd anthology. Warning: it's pretty specialized. Many will take it as light verse. I think fans of haiku will appreciate many of the pieces in it, though. (Notice the great sales technique. I sincerely worry more that someone will accidentally buy a book from me that he won't enjoy than that no one will buy the book.) --Bob G. From bobgrumman Sun Apr 25 06:38:20 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 06:38:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional; addendum "PEMLODs" References: Message-ID: <004701c42ab1$6ec070a0$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Anyway, here's my term: > >PEMLODs > >"Personal Emotive Monologues with Lots of (concrete) Details" C.E., I remember seeing this (from you) many years ago, when I did my first, brief excursion on the web. I shuddered then, in fear that this summed up my own work. But this definition is also broad enough to be a definition of lyric poetry and about 3/4's of the canon. Is PEMLOD a "period style" or a primary characteristic of the art? Finnegan It's a good ad hoc discussion-starter, but not nearly detailed enough, as James points out. The name fails to hint at what it means, too. "Iowa Workshop Poem" has the advantage of suggesting that it's a kind of poem that many people do. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Sun Apr 25 08:36:42 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 05:36:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <1e4.1e703a6b.2dbc69ca@aol.com> Message-ID: <408BB0DA.8E2158FA@earthlink.net> In a message dated Sat, 4/24/2004 21:09:30 EDT, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 4/24/2004 9:08:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk and leave. > > - Jim > > We'll all pine for you. Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? - Jim From FanwoodJEL Sun Apr 25 08:55:11 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 08:55:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar Message-ID: <7f.4590e5d1.2dbd0f2f@aol.com> In a message dated 4/25/2004 8:40:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? - Jim I bough before your skills. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes Sun Apr 25 10:10:42 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 07:10:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <7f.4590e5d1.2dbd0f2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <408BC6E3.D82470D6@earthlink.net> In a message dated 4/25/ 2004 08:55:11 EDT, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 4/25/2004 8:40:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not > > make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? > > - Jim > > I bough before your skills. Oak-kay, I'll leaf it alone before I end up in the ass pen. - Jim From hruggier Sun Apr 25 10:47:29 2004 From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:47:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... References: Message-ID: <00fe01c42ad4$3c4bcb10$e8089942@Helen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louie Crew" To: Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "In the main" and the requirements of fame.... > > In grad school I had a job in the university library and some alum > > donated his collection of small press poetry books. I was assigned > > to go through the boxes and pull out what we should keep. Box after > > box, book after book - beautifully printed art deco through pop art > > color covers, wrappers, bound, and inside the same little four line > > stanzas - maybe three or four stanzas per poem, after the first > > dozen they all tasted alike. > > > > I was amazed at the care and attention this "poetry" had gotten and > > why? > > That's the way some of my neighbors feel about every book in the > library. Some even graduate from college feeling that way. > > Lutibelle/Louie > > That too > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tadrichards Sun Apr 25 10:56:58 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:56:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <1e4.1e703a6b.2dbc69ca@aol.com> <408BB0DA.8E2158FA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006101c42ad5$904ad340$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> You've gone way too far out on a limb. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > In a message dated Sat, 4/24/2004 21:09:30 EDT, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 9:08:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > > On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk and leave. > > > > - Jim > > > > We'll all pine for you. > > Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not > make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? > > - Jim > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Sun Apr 25 11:12:56 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:12:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem Message-ID: Upon Julia's Clothes Whenas in silks my Julia goes, Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows That liquefaction of her clothes. Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see That brave vibration each way free, O how that glittering taketh me! --Robert Herrick ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From rwilsnac Sun Apr 25 12:28:15 2004 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:28:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040425112640.0103a1b8@medicine.nodak.edu> At 10:12 AM 4/25/2004 -0500, David Graham wrote: >Upon Julia's Clothes > >Whenas in silks my Julia goes, >Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows >That liquefaction of her clothes. > >Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see >That brave vibration each way free, >O how that glittering taketh me! > >--Robert Herrick Ah, nostalgia. As high school students in the 1950's, we were a little shocked when our English teacher, referring to this poem, commented out loud that Julia must not have been wearing a girdle. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From barry.spacks Sun Apr 25 13:07:56 2004 From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:07:56 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what's noo In-Reply-To: <200404251601.i3PG12XE015124@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040425095647.00b9c690@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 4/25/2004 -0400, David Graham offered yet another Iowa Workshop poem: >Upon Julia's Clothes > >Whenas in silks my Julia goes, >Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows >That liquefaction of her clothes. > >Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see >That brave vibration each way free, >O how that glittering taketh me! > >--Robert Herrick yeah-yeah, David, but no dashing visuals, scratch 'n sniffs, not a cutesy neologism in sight? -- and this "taketh me" thang, been donne Iowally, B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet Sun Apr 25 13:09:50 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:09:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404251659.i3PGxeXE015499@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jvcervantes Sun Apr 25 13:24:46 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:24:46 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem References: Message-ID: <408BF45E.B365D6A@earthlink.net> This poem has always knocked me out, and mainly because of "liquefaction," which strikes me as a jump into the future. That's as contemporary an image as you can get. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > Upon Julia's Clothes > > Whenas in silks my Julia goes, > Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows > That liquefaction of her clothes. > > Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see > That brave vibration each way free, > O how that glittering taketh me! > > --Robert Herrick > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes Sun Apr 25 13:28:39 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 10:28:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <1e4.1e703a6b.2dbc69ca@aol.com> <408BB0DA.8E2158FA@earthlink.net> <006101c42ad5$904ad340$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <408BF546.FD0F9AC9@earthlink.net> Nah. Just doin the limbo or the eucalypto. - Jim The Old Mole wrote: > > You've gone way too far out on a limb. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:36 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > In a message dated Sat, 4/24/2004 21:09:30 EDT, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > > > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 9:08:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk and > leave. > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > We'll all pine for you. > > > > Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not > > make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? > > > > - Jim > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL Sun Apr 25 13:32:32 2004 From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:32:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem Message-ID: <191.280f395e.2dbd5030@aol.com> In a message dated 4/25/2004 1:28:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: This poem has always knocked me out, and mainly because of "liquefaction," which strikes me as a jump into the future. That's as contemporary an image as you can get. - Jim *Brave vibration* ain't exactly retro, neither. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sun Apr 25 13:56:07 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:56:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem References: <408BF45E.B365D6A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <016b01c42aee$96afe770$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Fain would I kiss my Julia's dainty legge Which is as white and hairless as an egge. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem > This poem has always knocked me out, and mainly because of > "liquefaction," which strikes me as a jump into the future. That's as > contemporary an image as you can get. > > - Jim > > David Graham wrote: > > > > Upon Julia's Clothes > > > > Whenas in silks my Julia goes, > > Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows > > That liquefaction of her clothes. > > > > Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see > > That brave vibration each way free, > > O how that glittering taketh me! > > > > --Robert Herrick > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tadrichards Sun Apr 25 14:04:31 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:04:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <1e4.1e703a6b.2dbc69ca@aol.com> <408BB0DA.8E2158FA@earthlink.net> <006101c42ad5$904ad340$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <408BF546.FD0F9AC9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <018a01c42aef$c3687650$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Poems are made by Iowa Workshop fools like me.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > Nah. Just doin the limbo or the eucalypto. > > - Jim > > The Old Mole wrote: > > > > You've gone way too far out on a limb. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James Cervantes" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > > > In a message dated Sat, 4/24/2004 21:09:30 EDT, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 9:08:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > > > On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk and > > leave. > > > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > > > We'll all pine for you. > > > > > > Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not > > > make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? > > > > > > - Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 Sun Apr 25 14:29:19 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:29:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry... Message-ID: <148.27eeefc0.2dbd5d7f@cs.com> In a message dated 4/25/2004 9:10:33 AM Central Daylight Time, eliotpoe at hotmail.com writes: > > And to be fair, ever since Dana Gioia said "No great poet has come out of > California" (where Dana nevertheless chose to live, and while ignorantly > ignoring Robinson Jeffers), it riles me that Bukowski is likely the > best-known poet from LA, where I grew up and later practiced medicine. So > perhaps my personal ire at having Bukowski identified with my native state > makes me less than objective. Then I think I would have disrespected his > "art" if I'd been born in the Congo. Dana is a California native, and he has been a longtime champion of Robinson Jeffers's poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly Sun Apr 25 14:29:32 2004 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:29:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] LA: Reading Today! Message-ID: <0FCC56BC.3B053FF6.00045B92@aol.com> Sunday, April 25th 6-9 PM @ THE SMELL: 247 South Main St., LA 90012 ENTER IN BACK Come enjoy this media/arts event running the last Sunday of every month. Mark your calendars. THIS MONTH?S FEATURES: Poetry and Music ? Eileen Tabios with Mary Talusan on the Kulintang (gong-drum) Music (by a Poet) ? Franklin Bruno There is a Cinco de Mayo parade in downtown LA today, and South Main Street will be closed. Try parking on First Street. From bobgrumman Sun Apr 25 14:32:31 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:32:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: what's noo References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040425095647.00b9c690@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <016201c42af3$c08ea590$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Upon Julia's Clothes Whenas in silks my Julia goes, Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows That liquefaction of her clothes. Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see That brave vibration each way free, O how that glittering taketh me! --Robert Herrick yeah-yeah, David, but no dashing visuals, scratch 'n sniffs, not a cutesy neologism in sight? -- and this "taketh me" thang, been donne Iowally, B. Ah, but here's the thing--it hadn't been done all that much back when Herrick did it. Oh, another lesson that apparently needs repeating, unbelievable as that may seem: to believe that poems that do something technically new can be of value is not necessarily the same thing as believing that poems that do not do anything technically new are bad. Maybe you can explain that to Barry in words he can grasp, David. I do believe you understand it. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sun Apr 25 14:34:24 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:34:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry... Message-ID: <11c.2e4fd8d1.2dbd5eb0@cs.com> And to be fair, ever since Dana Gioia said "No great poet has come out of California" (where Dana nevertheless chose to live, and while ignorantly ignoring Robinson Jeffers), it riles me that Bukowski is likely the best-known poet from LA, where I grew up and later practiced medicine. So perhaps my personal ire at having Bukowski identified with my native state makes me less than objective. Then I think I would have disrespected his "art" if I'd been born in the Congo. http://www.californiapoetry.org/contents.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Sun Apr 25 14:43:23 2004 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:43:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem Message-ID: <1dd.1fe349bf.2dbd60cb@cs.com> At 10:12 AM 4/25/2004 -0500, David Graham wrote: >Upon Julia's Clothes > >Whenas in silks my Julia goes, >Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows >That liquefaction of her clothes. > >Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see >That brave vibration each way free, >O how that glittering taketh me! > >--Robert Herrick Ah, nostalgia. As high school students in the 1950's, we were a little shocked when our English teacher, referring to this poem, commented out loud that Julia must not have been wearing a girdle. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Upon Julia Roberts's Clothes Whenas in silks my Julia goes, Styled by Versace, no one knows What's really underneath her clothes; Except her boyfriends. Don't take the trouble To ask them to explode your bubble: Instead, ask Julia's body double. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpaul Sun Apr 25 14:57:32 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:57:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry... In-Reply-To: References: <84.2782ec2c.2db9668a@cs.com> <20040425015139.I6180@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <20040425135407.N56281@kpaul.spinweb.net> re: fiction versus poetry of bukowski: maybe it's like the difference between pepsi and coke drinkers? ford and chevy men? i like poetry raw - as raw as it can be while still having a shine. sure, maybe it's just conversational and observations of a bum's life, but there's something to it - for me anyway. it's interesting to read his work after he 'made it big...' thanks for responding. -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ p.s. i'll check out the essay ;) From kpaul Sun Apr 25 14:59:39 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:59:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry... In-Reply-To: References: <84.2782ec2c.2db9668a@cs.com> <20040425015139.I6180@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: <20040425135906.L56281@kpaul.spinweb.net> ok, perusing the 'nadir' essay, i'm wondering what you think of Henry Miller, another one who used 'simplistic' language ;) -kpaul From kpaul Sun Apr 25 15:05:04 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:05:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry... In-Reply-To: <11c.2e4fd8d1.2dbd5eb0@cs.com> References: <11c.2e4fd8d1.2dbd5eb0@cs.com> Message-ID: <20040425140316.W56281@kpaul.spinweb.net> ok, one more note: -- I have often observed that we have three schools or venues for poetry today: spoken, print, and net. My essays seek to promote a via media, where poems are expected to succeed both orally and visually; I always tell aspiring poets to read their work out loud before posting or submitting, for instance. I also think the net the best venue for merging the extremes of performance and academic verse, making not a new hybrid, but restoring a neglected rose a goal I have previously discussed at length in my series on logopoetry. -- i see what you're saying. what are your thoughts on e.e. cummings? must a poem be both heard and seen to be appreciated? or can one enjoy a poem visually, quietly, by candlelight one night and screaming it from the roof of a skyscraper the next? -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ From sbmontana Sun Apr 25 15:31:52 2004 From: sbmontana (Sharon Brogan) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:31:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] visual thesaurus... References: <1ab.233e1031.2dbaf25c@aol.com> <20040425012818.P6180@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:28:52 -0500 (EST), kpaul mallasch wrote: > > not sure if i would pay for it, but they have a free trial... > > http://www.visualthesaurus.com/index.jsp Try looking up "woman". Sharon Brogan http://sbpoet.com From jvcervantes Sun Apr 25 15:29:51 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 12:29:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem References: <408BF45E.B365D6A@earthlink.net> <016b01c42aee$96afe770$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <408C11AF.D9A057AA@earthlink.net> "Fain"!? "Fain"?!?!?! Gad! Get that man to the Temporal Adjustment Clinic immediately! - Dr. Now The Old Mole wrote: > > Fain would I kiss my Julia's dainty legge > Which is as white and hairless as an egge. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:24 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem > > > This poem has always knocked me out, and mainly because of > > "liquefaction," which strikes me as a jump into the future. That's as > > contemporary an image as you can get. > > > > - Jim > > > > David Graham wrote: > > > > > > Upon Julia's Clothes > > > > > > Whenas in silks my Julia goes, > > > Then, then (methinks) how sweetly flows > > > That liquefaction of her clothes. > > > > > > Next, when I cast mine eyes, and see > > > That brave vibration each way free, > > > O how that glittering taketh me! > > > > > > --Robert Herrick > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > David Graham > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes Sun Apr 25 15:31:21 2004 From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 12:31:21 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <1e4.1e703a6b.2dbc69ca@aol.com> <408BB0DA.8E2158FA@earthlink.net> <006101c42ad5$904ad340$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <408BF546.FD0F9AC9@earthlink.net> <018a01c42aef$c3687650$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <408C1209.E7780C70@earthlink.net> Fine. Have it your way. Just define every word in your sentence so that it satisfies me. - Jim The Old Mole wrote: > > Poems are made by Iowa Workshop fools like me.... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:28 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > Nah. Just doin the limbo or the eucalypto. > > > > - Jim > > > > The Old Mole wrote: > > > > > > You've gone way too far out on a limb. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "James Cervantes" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:36 AM > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > > > > > In a message dated Sat, 4/24/2004 21:09:30 EDT, FanwoodJEL at aol.com > writes: > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 9:08:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > > > > > On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk > and > > > leave. > > > > > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > > > > > We'll all pine for you. > > > > > > > > Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not > > > > make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? > > > > > > > > - Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Sun Apr 25 15:37:27 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:37:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iowa Workshop Poem References: Message-ID: <01b601c42afc$bf777a20$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> I know, we've been over it more than enough times, but I need to define the Iowa Workshop Poem for my essay and I can't find the relevant posts. New-Poetry is very hard to search, at least for me. I downloaded three months' of posts and had my computer look for "Iowa." It found it in two files, but the files was each an entire month of posts! No more specific indication where "Iowa" was. No doubt there's an easy way of doing it that I'm ignorant of. If someone can tell me how to search New-Poetry, great. Otherwise, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone would repost his definition of Iowa Workshop Poetry if he once put forward a fairly detailed one, as several did, including me. Here are my latest notes toward a definition: A 100% Iowa Workshop Poem is a poem that: 1. involves quotidian, usually suburban subject matter 2. uses understated near-prose (i.e., free verse with few or no frills or unconventionalities of expression) 3. ends with a standard epiphany or anti-epiphany 4. is genteel in vocabulary and morality 5. strives for anthroceptual sensitivity (i.e., symptahetic awareness of other human beings) 6. acts as a means to self-expression, or bringing the self to life as opposed to capturing a scene, some object or idea--never as an end in itself, as a beautiful verbal artifact 7. features telling concrete details out of everyday life 8. avoids gaudy metaphors and other forms of verbal splashiness 9. wouldn't be caught dead harboring a poetic technique not in wide use by 1950 at the latest 10. is not controversial in thought or attitude, or--really--close to explicitly ideational 11. tends to be indirect, subtle 12. is first-person 13. is generally short--one to three pages in length--never long. Odd, my impression was that I'd written quite a few 100% Iowa Workshop Poems, but when I started going through my files to find some examples of them for this essay, I realized I haven't. My Poem poems, for instance, are in the third person, and are almost always guilty of one kind of burstnorm funny business or another. Even poems of mine from thirty years ago like the one below: Saturday Interval In the park just down the road from the rear-view mirror factory where I work, and about a mile from the room I rent, I sit by myself among scattered stonefuls of midsummer sun, brooknoise, and patches of daisies. I've brought a book but haven't bothered to open it. From sbmontana Sun Apr 25 15:39:45 2004 From: sbmontana (Sharon Brogan) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:39:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry... References: <11c.2e4fd8d1.2dbd5eb0@cs.com> <20040425140316.W56281@kpaul.spinweb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:05:04 -0500 (EST), kpaul mallasch wrote: > can one enjoy a poem > visually, quietly, by candlelight one night and screaming it from the roof > of a skyscraper the next? Yes. Sharon Brogan http://sbpoet.com From tadrichards Sun Apr 25 16:10:22 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:10:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iowa Workshop Poem References: <01b601c42afc$bf777a20$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Message-ID: <021e01c42b01$58614d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> And this is called Iowa Workshop Poetry why? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:37 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iowa Workshop Poem > I know, we've been over it more than enough times, but I need to define the > Iowa Workshop Poem for my essay and I can't find the relevant posts. > New-Poetry is very hard to search, at least for me. I downloaded three > months' of posts and had my computer look for "Iowa." It found it in two > files, but the files was each an entire month of posts! No more specific > indication where "Iowa" was. No doubt there's an easy way of doing it that > I'm ignorant of. > > If someone can tell me how to search New-Poetry, great. > > Otherwise, I'd greatly appreciate it if someone would repost his definition > of Iowa Workshop Poetry if he once put forward a fairly detailed one, as > several did, including me. > > Here are my latest notes toward a definition: > > A 100% Iowa Workshop Poem is a poem that: > > 1. involves quotidian, usually suburban subject matter > > 2. uses understated near-prose (i.e., free verse with few or no frills or > unconventionalities of expression) > > 3. ends with a standard epiphany or anti-epiphany > > 4. is genteel in vocabulary and morality > > 5. strives for anthroceptual sensitivity (i.e., symptahetic awareness of > other human beings) > > 6. acts as a means to self-expression, or bringing the self to life as > opposed to capturing a scene, some object or idea--never as an end in > itself, as a beautiful verbal artifact > > 7. features telling concrete details out of everyday life > > 8. avoids gaudy metaphors and other forms of verbal splashiness > > 9. wouldn't be caught dead harboring a poetic technique not in wide use by > 1950 at the latest > > 10. is not controversial in thought or attitude, or--really--close to > explicitly ideational > > 11. tends to be indirect, subtle > > 12. is first-person > > 13. is generally short--one to three pages in length--never long. > > Odd, my impression was that I'd written quite a few 100% Iowa Workshop > Poems, but when I started going through my files to find some examples of > them for this essay, I realized I haven't. My Poem poems, for instance, are > in the third person, and are almost always guilty of one kind of burstnorm > funny business or another. Even poems of mine from thirty years ago like the > one below: > > Saturday Interval > > In the park just down the road > from the rear-view mirror factory where I work, > and about a mile from the room I rent, > I sit by myself among scattered > stonefuls of midsummer sun, > brooknoise, > and patches of daisies. > I've brought a book > but haven't bothered to open it. > > From time to time Persephones climb > through the stones' slow pulse > or into the affections > of the flowering fields, > but never, > even briefly, > down > my darkening. > > This certainly begins Iowanly, and it has the Big Epiphany at the end, but > its metaphors prevent it from being a 100% Iowa Workshop poem. I'd still > call it one. Which is not to belittle it. I'm with CE, David and others who > respect it. It seems to me a kind of poem that, once discovered, caught on > because it is biologically-right: an informal equivalent of the sonnet in > that it generally summarizes a single human circumstance and caps it with a > reaction, the epiphany. I suspect the sonnet and it are the size of what > might be called a normal medium reflection. I'm more sure that the haiku is > the size of a single rich moment plus a reaction to it. The sonnet and the > Iowa Workshop Poem may be a step up in size from the haiku. Just musing. My > main point is that I have nothing against the Iowa Workshop Poem--except > that so many teachers, anthologists, grants-bestowers and critics act as > though there's just about no other viable kind of poem around. > > Here's another poem of mine I thought for sure was a 100% Iowa Workshop > Poem: > > > The Canoe > > Head unbent, > the boy faces his father. > A blue canoe from a poem he'd write > more than twenty years later > is beached an rotting > somewhere on the outskirts > of the tension between them. > Forever once > as a child of four > he had ridden that canoe > out of his mother'sstrawberry winds > and into the midst of island and gulls > on the fringe of the great wide sea. > His father had done the paddling, > picnic-eyed and strong in a summer Saturday. > > But it is another season now > and the boy faces an older father, > a father pale and strange > in the adolescence the boy can't help > taunting him from. > > It is a different season now, and years will go by > before the boy reflects upon, > or even notices > from the dark margins of the moment > the shine of the blue at its center. > > I'd call this maybe a 70% Iowa Workshop Poem. It's in the third-person, and > it has stuff like "forever once" and "picnic-eyed" which make me cringe but > which I also think are probably effective. I'd say any poem that more than > half of the items on my list apply to that is not burstnorm or songmode > (neo-formal) in any significant way is a Iowa Workshop Poem. > > Note: this post is a first draft, although also a fiftieth draft of opinions > I'm always tossing around, so I'd be grateful for any comments. I'm > especially looking for additions to my list. Subtractions? Refinements, for > sure. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From tadrichards Sun Apr 25 16:28:42 2004 From: tadrichards (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:28:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar References: <1e4.1e703a6b.2dbc69ca@aol.com> <408BB0DA.8E2158FA@earthlink.net> <006101c42ad5$904ad340$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <408BF546.FD0F9AC9@earthlink.net> <018a01c42aef$c3687650$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> <408C1209.E7780C70@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <023901c42b03$e85f6a40$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> I can't. I'm too fucking genteel in vocabulary and morality. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > Fine. Have it your way. Just define every word in your sentence so > that it satisfies me. > > - Jim > > The Old Mole wrote: > > > > Poems are made by Iowa Workshop fools like me.... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James Cervantes" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > > > Nah. Just doin the limbo or the eucalypto. > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > The Old Mole wrote: > > > > > > > > You've gone way too far out on a limb. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "James Cervantes" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:36 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Frank Gaspar > > > > > > > > > In a message dated Sat, 4/24/2004 21:09:30 EDT, FanwoodJEL at aol.com > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/24/2004 9:08:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > On second thought, I think I'll just pack my trunk > > and > > > > leave. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > We'll all pine for you. > > > > > > > > > > Oak-ee-dokey. Remember, I am like a captain at the elm and will not > > > > > make an ash of myself. But you node that. Wood you follow me? > > > > > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Sun Apr 25 16:36:40 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:36:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poem Message-ID: Here's one from 12 centuries or so back. . . genteel, suburban, mundane. Sick and Old, Same As Ever: a Poem to Figure It All Out Splendor and ruin, sorrow and joy, long life or early death: when this human realm's a figment of prank and whimsy, is it really so strange if I'm soon a bug's arm or rat's liver? And chicken skin or crane plumage- what would it hurt? In yesterday's winds, I was happy to begin my long journey, but today, in all this sunlit warmth of spring, I feel better. And now that I'm packed and ready for that distant voyage, what does it matter if I linger on a little while longer here? --Po Ch?-I, trans. David Hinton ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman Sun Apr 25 16:38:25 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:38:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iowa Workshop Poem References: <01b601c42afc$bf777a20$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> <021e01c42b01$58614d70$6801a8c0@MoleHQ> Message-ID: <01d901c42b05$44131a70$53efa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> > And this is called Iowa Workshop Poetry why? Because hundreds of people call it that. I believe they call it that, as I said in another post, because the ones who popularized it came out of the Iowa University English department, and because a chief maker of such poems, Marvin Bell, taught there. I don't know much about the term's history. I may have it all wrong. I believe American Poetry Review helped make it popular so it could as well be called an APR Poem. The term, "Mcpoem," that Donald Hall was the first to use, I'm pretty sure, also means about the same thing, I believe. The main point is that there is a certain very recognizable kind of poem that American poets have been making for thirty years or more and many call the Iowa Workshop Poem, and that a sizable portion of poetry readers are starting to get just a little tired of. --Bob G. From JforJames Sun Apr 25 20:24:20 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:24:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Iowa Workshop Poem Message-ID: <1ec.1eaf16f7.2dbdb0b4@aol.com> Westron winde, when will thou blow, The smalle raine downe can raine? Christ if my love were in my armes, And I in my bed againe. R.T. Davies, ed. Medieval English Lyrics (Faber, 1963) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Apr 25 20:32:33 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:32:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] To kpaul: Buke and the Nadir of American Poetry... Message-ID: <1c0.1829613f.2dbdb2a1@aol.com> In a message dated 4/25/2004 2:58:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, kpaul at mallasch.com writes: > i like poetry raw - as raw as it can be while still having a shine. sure, > maybe it's just conversational and observations of a bum's life, but > there's something to it - for me anyway. > kpaul, I too am a big Bukowski fan. I'd just checked into a hotel in San Francisco the night he died and I wanted to get back into my car a drive down to LA...but I didn't. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Sun Apr 25 20:36:28 2004 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:36:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional; addendum "PEMLODs" Message-ID: <6b.27e0cfcc.2dbdb38c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/25/2004 12:50:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > Finnegan, Where's this survey from? I mean the 75% and all. CP > > Carlo, That was a WAG...but if lyric poetry comprises as much of the canon (not by line count, but by poem count) as I think it does, it may be accurate. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd Sun Apr 25 21:00:35 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:00:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bukowski In-Reply-To: <1c0.1829613f.2dbdb2a1@aol.com> Message-ID: on 4/25/04 7:32 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 4/25/2004 2:58:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, kpaul at mallasch.com writes: i like poetry raw - as raw as it can be while still having a shine. sure, maybe it's just conversational and observations of a bum's life, but there's something to it - for me anyway. kpaul, I too am a big Bukowski fan. I'd just checked into a hotel in San Francisco the night he died and I wanted to get back into my car a drive down to LA...but I didn't. Finnegan ----------------------------------------- Keillor includes Bukowski in *Good Poems*, and in his introduction says this: "Sometimes, however, one is dead wrong. I've come to admire poets I once cocked a snoot at, like Raymond Carver and Charles Bukowski. Bukowski said, 'There is nothing wrong with poetry that is entertaining and easy to understand. Genius could be the ability to say a profound thing in a simple way.' This is not what an English major like me cared to hear, back when I was busy writing poems that, were lacerating, opaque, complexly layered, unreadable. But now I'm older and I read Bukowski's love poems, his odes to companionship and city scenes and nightlife, and admire his good humor, e.g., the poem in which he says he's lived with some fine women in his time but he would rather drive in reverse gear from L.A. to N.Y. than live with any of them again, and I wonder, Why do English teachers offer their prisoners so much Cummings and no Bukowski? Why do standard anthologies include one and never mention the other?" I am not a big Bukowski fan, but when I revisited his work I discovered that much of it is quite a bit better than I had remembered. About Raymond Carver I changed my mind completely. Like Keillor, I used to cock a snoot at his poems, and don't anymore. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd Sun Apr 25 21:47:11 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:47:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa workshop poem: it spreads Message-ID: It's spreading: somebody better investigate this Iowa Workshop thing! I'm seeing it everywhere I look now. . . . Oh, man, this one's got first person narration, free verse, self-expression up the wazoo, mundane subject matter from here to Brooklyn and back, genteel vocabulary and morality, concrete details of everyday life. . . . and check out that anthroceptual sensitivity! Whew! Give this guy an MFA and tenure. (Hey, didn't Walt study with Marvin Bell? Or was that Emily?) I too many and many a time cross?d the river, the sun half an hour high; I watched the Twelfth-month sea-gulls?-I saw them high in the air, floating with motionless wings, oscillating their bodies, I saw how the glistening yellow lit up parts of their bodies, and left the rest in strong shadow, I saw the slow-wheeling circles, and the gradual edging toward the south. I too saw the reflection of the summer sky in the water, Had my eyes dazzled by the shimmering track of beams, Look?d at the fine centrifugal spokes of light around the shape of my head in the sun-lit water, Look?d on the haze on the hills southward and southwestward, Look?d on the vapor as it flew in fleeces tinged with violet, Look?d toward the lower bay to notice the arriving ships, Saw their approach, saw aboard those that were near me, Saw the white sails of schooners and sloops?saw the ships at anchor, The sailors at work in the rigging, or out astride the spars, The round masts, the swinging motion of the hulls, the slender serpentine pennants, The large and small steamers in motion, the pilots in their pilot-houses, The white wake left by the passage, the quick tremulous whirl of the wheels, The flags of all nations, the falling of them at sun-set, The scallop-edged waves in the twilight, the ladled cups, the frolicsome crests and glistening, The stretch afar growing dimmer and dimmer, the gray walls of the granite store-houses by the docks, On the river the shadowy group, the big steam-tug closely flank?d on each side by the barges?the hay-boat, the belated lighter, On the neighboring shore, the fires from the foundry chimneys burning high and glaringly into the night, Casting their flicker of black, contrasted with wild red and yellow light, over the tops of houses, and down into the clefts of streets. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From alphavil Sun Apr 25 22:40:39 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:40:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa Workshop Poems: definitional; addendum "PEMLODs" References: <6b.27e0cfcc.2dbdb38c@aol.com> Message-ID: <408C76A6.473EAE6B@ix.netcom.com> I haven't been following the workshop thing to closely, but I think there is something to the Iowa workshop/MFA criticism that them's that like it are on the dodge about. Counter your claim somewhat, if someone said 75% or 95% of the poets write like work shop poets, them's that like it like Graham would object. Bob do seem self-serving and probably is. But that might just be a matter of character; a matter of character he's fairly acknowledged. I am certainly self-serving in my approach, bein', outside the academy's critical factories, bout the last of the advocates of the High Modernist Epic and all its edifyin' charms. CP JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/25/2004 12:50:36 AM Eastern Standard > Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > > >> Finnegan, Where's this survey from? I mean the 75% and >> all. CP >> > > > Carlo, > That was a WAG...but if lyric poetry comprises as much of > the > canon (not by line count, but by poem count) as I think it > does, > it may be accurate. > Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil Sun Apr 25 23:32:54 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:32:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa workshop poem: it spreads References: Message-ID: <408C82E6.D49923D9@ix.netcom.com> We all respond to our capacities. Sugar up an art or craft with a little notoriety, dollops of cash, an open mike, a degree without pain, and its pretty easy to sell as the moon rock as legitimate especially when the brochure says there is virtually no authentic critical parameters that can exist for it except the response of others with similar capacities. In a back lot that run's on middle class desire, the arts and crafts that don't generate any real capital don't need or want no dynamos. Dynamos actually delegitimize the poser egalitarian application process and are the only one's who fail MFAs. As has historically been the case, the only desirable dynamos are commercial dynamos just as point of fact. But poetry in the present environment as a praxis has no choice but to give itself over to any sensibility that wants it, truly THE middle class condition. As it is, the middle class of Dwight MacDonald and C.Wright Mills, of Donald Duck and Levittown, has made a comfortable, liberal sized place for poetry in the babyseat in the back of the family sedan. Everybody else that tried to kick against the pricks, if they kicked hard enough got ground up by the commercial dynamo machine, witness the beats, and repackaged for general consumption.. I mean how long did it take hip-hop to become its academic fo' yo' mama jokes or Jimmy Cagney for jewelers, leaving all the cynics like right again but unable to get odds to make it be worth bein' right. And there isn't a person on this list that can contest that from a position of praxis 'cause they's all up in tbe other middle class that's got no films where they bang Vanessa Williams. CP David Graham wrote: > It's spreading: somebody better investigate this Iowa Workshop thing! I'm > seeing it everywhere I look now. . . . > > Oh, man, this one's got first person narration, free verse, self-expression > up the wazoo, mundane subject matter from here to Brooklyn and back, genteel > vocabulary and morality, concrete details of everyday life. . . . and check > out that anthroceptual sensitivity! Whew! Give this guy an MFA and tenure. > > (Hey, didn't Walt study with Marvin Bell? Or was that Emily?) > > I too many and many a time cross?d the river, the sun half an hour high; > I watched the Twelfth-month sea-gulls?-I saw them high in the air, floating > with motionless wings, oscillating their bodies, > I saw how the glistening yellow lit up parts of their bodies, and left the > rest in strong shadow, > I saw the slow-wheeling circles, and the gradual edging toward the south. > I too saw the reflection of the summer sky in the water, > Had my eyes dazzled by the shimmering track of beams, > Look?d at the fine centrifugal spokes of light around the shape of my head > in the sun-lit water, > Look?d on the haze on the hills southward and southwestward, > Look?d on the vapor as it flew in fleeces tinged with violet, > Look?d toward the lower bay to notice the arriving ships, > Saw their approach, saw aboard those that were near me, > Saw the white sails of schooners and sloops?saw the ships at anchor, > The sailors at work in the rigging, or out astride the spars, > The round masts, the swinging motion of the hulls, the slender serpentine > pennants, > The large and small steamers in motion, the pilots in their pilot-houses, > The white wake left by the passage, the quick tremulous whirl of the wheels, > The flags of all nations, the falling of them at sun-set, > The scallop-edged waves in the twilight, the ladled cups, the frolicsome > crests and glistening, > The stretch afar growing dimmer and dimmer, the gray walls of the granite > store-houses by the docks, > On the river the shadowy group, the big steam-tug closely flank?d on each > side by the barges?the hay-boat, the belated lighter, > On the neighboring shore, the fires from the foundry chimneys burning high > and glaringly into the night, > Casting their flicker of black, contrasted with wild red and yellow light, > over the tops of houses, and down into the clefts of streets. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil Mon Apr 26 00:04:36 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:04:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa workshop poem: it spreads References: <408C82E6.D49923D9@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <408C8A54.ACA81FD9@ix.netcom.com> It can't be stressed enough that comparing, say, the historical condition of lyric poetry with today's workshop product is empty and dishonest. Its equally as dishonest to say that contemporary institutions have no effect on the nature of the lyric considering the cornucopeia of poems we've recently been blessed with that favorably regard the girth of the poet in this era of precise scientific measurement. This was formally the preserve of Samuel Johnson and the Earl of Rochester, but, oh forgive me, now I'm making a distinction that crysallizes about the obscure assumptions concerning the possibility of a unique and torpid middle class that belches perhaps in a condition that Keats would not. CP "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > We all respond to our capacities. Sugar up an art or craft with a little > notoriety, dollops of cash, an open mike, a degree without pain, and its pretty > easy to sell as the moon rock as legitimate especially when the brochure says > there is virtually no authentic critical parameters that can exist for it except > the response of others with similar capacities. In a back lot that run's on > middle class desire, the arts and crafts that don't generate any real capital > don't need or want no dynamos. Dynamos actually delegitimize the poser > egalitarian application process and are the only one's who fail MFAs. As has > historically been the case, the only desirable dynamos are commercial dynamos > just as point of fact. But poetry in the present environment as a praxis has no > choice but to give itself over to any sensibility that wants it, truly THE > middle class condition. As it is, the middle class of Dwight MacDonald and > C.Wright Mills, of Donald Duck and Levittown, has made a comfortable, liberal > sized place for poetry in the babyseat in the back of the family sedan. > Everybody else that tried to kick against the pricks, if they kicked hard enough > got ground up by the commercial dynamo machine, witness the beats, and > repackaged for general consumption.. I mean how long did it take hip-hop to > become its academic fo' yo' mama jokes or Jimmy Cagney for jewelers, leaving all > the cynics like right again but unable to get odds to make it be worth bein' > right. And there isn't a person on this list that can contest that from a > position of praxis 'cause they's all up in tbe other middle class that's got no > films where they bang Vanessa Williams. CP > > David Graham wrote: > > > It's spreading: somebody better investigate this Iowa Workshop thing! I'm > > seeing it everywhere I look now. . . . > > > > Oh, man, this one's got first person narration, free verse, self-expression > > up the wazoo, mundane subject matter from here to Brooklyn and back, genteel > > vocabulary and morality, concrete details of everyday life. . . . and check > > out that anthroceptual sensitivity! Whew! Give this guy an MFA and tenure. > > > > (Hey, didn't Walt study with Marvin Bell? Or was that Emily?) > > > > I too many and many a time cross?d the river, the sun half an hour high; > > I watched the Twelfth-month sea-gulls?-I saw them high in the air, floating > > with motionless wings, oscillating their bodies, > > I saw how the glistening yellow lit up parts of their bodies, and left the > > rest in strong shadow, > > I saw the slow-wheeling circles, and the gradual edging toward the south. > > I too saw the reflection of the summer sky in the water, > > Had my eyes dazzled by the shimmering track of beams, > > Look?d at the fine centrifugal spokes of light around the shape of my head > > in the sun-lit water, > > Look?d on the haze on the hills southward and southwestward, > > Look?d on the vapor as it flew in fleeces tinged with violet, > > Look?d toward the lower bay to notice the arriving ships, > > Saw their approach, saw aboard those that were near me, > > Saw the white sails of schooners and sloops?saw the ships at anchor, > > The sailors at work in the rigging, or out astride the spars, > > The round masts, the swinging motion of the hulls, the slender serpentine > > pennants, > > The large and small steamers in motion, the pilots in their pilot-houses, > > The white wake left by the passage, the quick tremulous whirl of the wheels, > > The flags of all nations, the falling of them at sun-set, > > The scallop-edged waves in the twilight, the ladled cups, the frolicsome > > crests and glistening, > > The stretch afar growing dimmer and dimmer, the gray walls of the granite > > store-houses by the docks, > > On the river the shadowy group, the big steam-tug closely flank?d on each > > side by the barges?the hay-boat, the belated lighter, > > On the neighboring shore, the fires from the foundry chimneys burning high > > and glaringly into the night, > > Casting their flicker of black, contrasted with wild red and yellow light, > > over the tops of houses, and down into the clefts of streets. > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Mon Apr 26 01:53:37 2004 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 00:53:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyrical Message-ID: From marcus Sat Apr 24 21:38:06 2004 From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:38:06 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Columbus Show Message-ID: <200404260826.i3Q8QnXE021423@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Information _____________________ Midwest Literary Magazine and Small Press Fair June 3, 2004 11 AM-7PM June 4, 2004 11 AM-7PM Wexner Center for the Arts 1871 North High Street Columbus, OH 43210 CLMP (Council of Literary Magazines and Presses), The Kenyon Review and The Wexner Center for the Arts, in association with the Ohio State University Creative Writing Program, are proud to present the Midwest Literary Magazine and Small Press Fair, a massive showcase highlighting America's independent literary publishers. Dozens of publishers from all over the country will converge on Columbus, Ohio with copies and issues galore, and many editors will be present to meet and greet. All magazines will be on sale for only $2, and all books will be on sale for $4 -- so hungry readers will be able to sample a wide variety of today's freshest literature. Magazines and presses interested in participating must register by May 17th. To do so, please complete the online registration at: http://www.clmp.org/fairform.html In addition to highlighting the many participating literary magazines and presses, the two day event will also provide panel and roundtable discussions on such topics as: * "Writing in the Midwest" -- Select group of Midwest authors and editors present an overview of what is available in the Midwest in terms of journals, writing programs, resources. * "Eating Your Words: How to Write and Still Put Food on the Table" -- A panel of writers and poets who work in academic and non-academic fields to support their writing habits. * "Getting Past the Gate..." A frank discussion for writers on what qualities editors seek in unsolicited stories, poems and essays. Voice? Style? Surprising twists and turns? Find out what it takes for a piece to get beyond the volunteer reader and onto the editor's desk. These and other activities will offer fairgoers the opportunity to find out how editors make selections and to gain valuable tips on submitting their work to literary magazines or presses. Furthermore, The Fair will coincide with "Epilogue" - the popular annual reading held by Ohio State's Creative Writing Program. As you know, the fruits of independent literary publishers remain unknown to the larger public--the community of readers. The National Endowment for the Arts-funded CLMP regional fairs are based on CLMP's highly successful Lit Mag Fairs at Housing Works Used Book Caf? in New York City, which have gotten hundreds of magazines into the hands of thousands of eager readers. By branching out to selected cities across the country (including Atlanta, GA; Buffalo, NY; and Portland, OR), the CLMP fairs provide a much wider range of readers with access to new literary voices, ensuring that America's literary heritage remains diverse and vibrant. The Midwest Literary Magazine and Small Press Fair is free and open to the public. Again, interested magazines and presses must register online by May 17th at: http://www.clmp.org/fairform.html Space is limited, so we do need commitments from you as soon as possible. PLEASE NOTE: You will receive confirmation (by email if possible) of your registration and further instruction on when and where to send your journals (do not send them before instructed to do so, please), as well as tips for getting the most out of the weekend and methods by which you can help spread the word about the Midwest Literary Magazine and Small Press Fair. For more information, visit www.kenyonreview.org, www.wexarts.org and www.clmp.org or contact Thom Didato at tdidato at clmp.org Thom Didato Program Coordinator Council of Literary Magazines and Presses (CLMP) 154 Christopher Street, Suite 3C New York, NY 10014 P: (212) 741-9110 x 12 F: (212) 741-9112 tdidato at clmp.org www.clmp.org __________________________ Marcus From bobgrumman Mon Apr 26 06:34:12 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 06:34:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bukowski References: Message-ID: <005801c42b7a$05d47270$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Bukowski versus Cummings? Weird comparison. Bukowski seems to me offhand to have been more similar to Cummings than to any other modern except Williams. But one very obvious reason Cummings has more poems in anthologies and classes than Bukowski is that he was a lot earlier than Bukowski. A more reasonable comparison would be of Bukowski to his contemporaries like Ashbury, say, or Creeley, or Donald Hall. I consider him an important minor poet but too coarse to ever have become mainstream, though his poetry outsold that of all the mainstreamers. Yes, one can make money from poetry and not be mainstream by my definition of the term. Cummings, as everyone who has read my posts must know or be able to guess, is for me a major poet--though not the Cummings in the anthologies and classrooms. I consider him tied for first with Stevens and Roethke as the best poet of all the no longer living American poets whose work I know. Jeffers, whose name has come up here recently, is on my list of top ten, or almost on it. --Bob G. From bobgrumman Mon Apr 26 06:42:30 2004 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 06:42:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Iowa workshop poem: it spreads References: Message-ID: <006401c42b7b$2e8a3dc0$7fefa1cd@youro0kwkw9jwc> Thanks for the help, David. Nice passage from Whitman. Not quite an Iowa Workshop Poem, though. More than one or two items on my list should apply to a poem for it to qualify as an Iowa Workshop Poem. And the poem should not contradict more than one or two items on my list. What is your point, anyway? That a poem is a poem; therefore, there's no such thing as an Iowa Workshop Poem? By the way, you might check the recent (surprising) post James made on Goethe's opinion of neologies before sneering too much at my use of "anthroceptual." --Bob G. From ron.silliman Mon Apr 26 06:56:21 2004 From: ron.silliman (Ron) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 06:56:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog - X marks the spot Message-ID: <000201c42b7d$1f9a78a0$6401a8c0@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: Linh Dinh is back - X marks the spot (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Recent events in criticism - Hank Lazer, Joan Houlihan et al & Watten wins the Wellek The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Rachel Blau DuPlessis on Kith & Kin (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Mmmm, she writes -- Nathalie Anderson (from the Rosenbach Alphabet) Who dies as Bush lies? If I had a billboard . . . . (from "9 for 9") Explaining poetry to extraterrestrials (from "9 for 9") Reading Creeley reading - the values of imperfection J is for Juvenile - a sonnet involving Marianne Moore & Lewis Carroll (introducing the Rosenbach Alphabet) Jeff Harrison - The value of a spare approach in the retro-avant-garde 26 books on one week's mail - trying to stay current amid the flood of literature Hellboy - New Formalist How to gauge influence? Originality & sources in Kevin Davies Lateral Argument & Jim Behrle's City Point http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ * * * My latest book Woundwood is available from Cuneiform Press: http://www.cuneiformpress.com/wound.html From paul.lake Mon Apr 26 10:15:27 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:15:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Franz Wright on NPR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/24/04 4:42 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Scott Simon interviewed Franz Wright this morning > on NPR. They were joined by the leader of a rock band > ("ill lit") which is named after a Wright book... > > http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1850232.html There was a review of Franz Wright?s Pulitzer winning poetry collection in last weeks Arkansas Democrat Gazette. The poetry quoted in the review was so awful that it made me despair (yet again) over the sad state of American poetry. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake Mon Apr 26 10:43:56 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:43:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power Message-ID: Here's an interesting article on how a poem helped end slavery in America. Who said "poetry makes nothing happen"? http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/iannone200404260849.asp --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From alphavil Mon Apr 26 10:44:45 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:44:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power References: Message-ID: <408D205D.6E8B74BE@ix.netcom.com> Well the subtitle is apt: "WHEN poetry HAD power." Of course, the National Review is doing its part to reintroduce the "peculiar institution." CP Paul Lake wrote: > Here's an interesting article on how a poem helped end slavery in America. > Who said "poetry makes nothing happen"? > > http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/iannone200404260849.asp > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil Mon Apr 26 11:25:04 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:25:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power References: <408D205D.6E8B74BE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <408D29CF.733F99@ix.netcom.com> ihatepoetry at yahoogroups.com This group invites any and all to bear witness to why they hate and despise poetry. Be as vehement as you like. There are NO language restrictions. If you must curse, swear, throw a poet around the room as you write us please feel free to do so. Tell us why you loath this least credible and most ineffectual of all art forms and its practioners. Tell us which poets gall you most. Send along your most hated poem. Relate your most hated readings in excruciating cinematic detail. Tell us who you think is responsible for the sorry state of poetry today and why. Place Blame! Point Fingers! Name Names! Let it out! Let it all Out!! Here at I Hate Poetry, we feel your pain! From paul.lake Mon Apr 26 11:47:40 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:47:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power In-Reply-To: <408D205D.6E8B74BE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: on 4/26/04 9:44 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > Well the subtitle is apt: "WHEN poetry HAD power." > > Of course, the National Review is doing its part to reintroduce the "peculiar > institution." CP You're right about the fact that poetry had far more social power in the 19th than the 20th or 21st century. But your second statement about The National Review attempting to re-institute slavery says more about how bizarrely skewed your worldview is than about that rather tame--if somewhat right of center--journal. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From alphavil Mon Apr 26 12:08:41 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:08:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power References: Message-ID: <408D3409.E24DEDD7@ix.netcom.com> Oh, Really Paul. My point of view is skewed. The National Review which is a base for the racist blitherings of Gunga Dinesh and others. I threw Mrs. Krauthammer's sorry, stinkin' ass out of my store because she threatened to destroy my business after I posted in the window of my bookstore where I paid rent something critical of the twit whose carried so much water for whitey--- towit Dinesh D'Souza. Now. that's a devotion to free speech. Come here to Chocolate City and we'll do a survey on how the National Review and its ilk is viewed outside of Chevy Chase and Fox Hall. And don't get me started about what a bunch of phony intellectuals these National Review morons are from my bird's eye view as a book seller. All phonies seeking economic advantage and they don't give a shit who they fuck over to get it. CP Paul Lake wrote: > on 4/26/04 9:44 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Well the subtitle is apt: "WHEN poetry HAD power." > > > > Of course, the National Review is doing its part to reintroduce the "peculiar > > institution." CP > > You're right about the fact that poetry had far more social power in the > 19th than the 20th or 21st century. But your second statement about The > National Review attempting to re-institute slavery says more about how > bizarrely skewed your worldview is than about that rather tame--if somewhat > right of center--journal. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From adead_poet Mon Apr 26 12:48:30 2004 From: adead_poet (adead_poet at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:48:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mail Delivery (failure new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu) Message-ID: <200404261638.i3QGcDXE025662@wiz.cath.vt.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paul.lake Mon Apr 26 13:05:56 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:05:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power In-Reply-To: <408D3409.E24DEDD7@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: on 4/26/04 11:08 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > Oh, Really Paul. My point of view is skewed. The National Review which is a > base > for the racist blitherings of Gunga Dinesh and others. > > I threw Mrs. Krauthammer's sorry, stinkin' ass out of my store because she > threatened to destroy my business after I posted in the window of my bookstore > where I paid rent something critical of the twit whose carried so much water > for > whitey--- towit Dinesh D'Souza. Now. that's a devotion to free speech. > > Come here to Chocolate City and we'll do a survey on how the National Review > and > its ilk is viewed outside of Chevy Chase and Fox Hall. And don't get me > started > about what a bunch of phony intellectuals these National Review morons are > from my > bird's eye view as a book seller. All phonies seeking economic advantage and > they > don't give a shit who they fuck over to get it. CP > > > Paul Lake wrote: > >> on 4/26/04 9:44 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: >> >>> Well the subtitle is apt: "WHEN poetry HAD power." >>> >>> Of course, the National Review is doing its part to reintroduce the >>> "peculiar >>> institution." CP >> >> You're right about the fact that poetry had far more social power in the >> 19th than the 20th or 21st century. But your second statement about The >> National Review attempting to re-institute slavery says more about how >> bizarrely skewed your worldview is than about that rather tame--if somewhat >> right of center--journal. >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > As a book seller, you're free to post whatever you want in your window, of course. But using names like "Gunga" Dinesh smacks of racism. Can't you just say you disagree with someone's policies or political ideas without ascribing racist, evil motives? Just because many residents of D. C. don't subscribe to the politics of the National Review doesn't make the magazine racist--unless one uses today's rather dishonest and elastic definition of racism as, for instance, taking a principled stand against racial preferences. Despite your sophistry, your suggestion that because the magazine is conservative it wants to bring back slavery is absurd. After all, you're a capitalist yourself, aren't you? You hope to make a profit from the books you sell. The fact that you're a businessman doesn't make you a capitalist racist exploiter of the poor and working class of D. C. Feel free to disagree with the Republican administration whenever you want. I do. But ease up a bit on the rhetoric. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From marcus Mon Apr 26 13:27:15 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:27:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: weapons of math instruction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <408D0E33.32246.22A759@localhost> Found Poem: Weapons of Math Instruction At New York's Kennedy airport a man was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a compass, and a calculator. Attorney General John Ashcroft announced the man is a member of the notorious al-gebra movement. The man is being charged with possession of weapons of math instruction. President George W. Bush said, "Al-gebra is a fearsome cult. Adherents derive average solutions by means and extremes, and seek absolute value following tangents. They use secret code names such as "x" and "y" and refer to them as "unknowns". "I am gratiful for this sine that our brave customs have agents intent on protracting us from these math-dogs who are willing to disintegrate us with calculus disregard. Al-gebra would like to inflict plane on every sphere of influence. Under the circumferences, we must differentiate their root, make our point, and draw the line. "These weapons of math instruction have the potential to decimal everything in their math on a scalene never before seen unless we become exponents of a Higher Power and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex." "As Forty One said, 'Read my ellipse!' Though these asymptotes continue to multiply, their days are numbered as the hypotenus tightens around their necks." From alphavil Mon Apr 26 13:15:07 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:15:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power References: Message-ID: <408D439A.B10960C5@ix.netcom.com> One. I didn't relate Capitalist to racist. You did. Besides that's such a weak and disingenuous canard on your part. Its true capitalism is such a simply minded hustle wrapped in a series of dishonest and unethical acts that I'm always surprised that so many people have to take their capitalist criminality to such extreme and murderous levels like the National Review vis a vis U.S. policy toward (fill in the blank.). Two) A person of considerable power threatened my livelihood and the well being of my family BECAUSE she felt she was in a postiion to do so. To play the bully as is her and her husband's custom. They are used to having people bend to their will and kiss their ass.. Three) That was the game played up there near my store. The minorities and immigrants who worked in the stores were called lazy, stupid, ignorant and constantly demeaned by the mostly white clientele in the area. I engaged in many fights and arguments with whitey up there including shoving the manager of a local bank who formed a gang of wealthy white vigilanties who went around discarding homeless peoples' property to force them out of the neighborhood. I still see red thinking about it. Four) The racism of the Gunga Dinesh remark was deliberate and I must say well earned by the little fucker because he shows no regard for people who are essentially powerless in exchange for crumbs from Krauthammer's table. In short he's a whore or as John McLaughlin once said "Whore? We're all whores! But I'm the whore with the TV show." Five) The people at the National Review stooge for powerful forces that are already in place and that have oppression as part of their agenda. Its that obvious truth that people of color are responding to because unlike you they are a target. Your response speaks for itself. CP Paul Lake wrote: > on 4/26/04 11:08 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Oh, Really Paul. My point of view is skewed. The National Review which is a > > base > > for the racist blitherings of Gunga Dinesh and others. > > > > I threw Mrs. Krauthammer's sorry, stinkin' ass out of my store because she > > threatened to destroy my business after I posted in the window of my bookstore > > where I paid rent something critical of the twit whose carried so much water > > for > > whitey--- towit Dinesh D'Souza. Now. that's a devotion to free speech. > > > > Come here to Chocolate City and we'll do a survey on how the National Review > > and > > its ilk is viewed outside of Chevy Chase and Fox Hall. And don't get me > > started > > about what a bunch of phony intellectuals these National Review morons are > > from my > > bird's eye view as a book seller. All phonies seeking economic advantage and > > they > > don't give a shit who they fuck over to get it. CP > > > > > > Paul Lake wrote: > > > >> on 4/26/04 9:44 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > >> > >>> Well the subtitle is apt: "WHEN poetry HAD power." > >>> > >>> Of course, the National Review is doing its part to reintroduce the > >>> "peculiar > >>> institution." CP > >> > >> You're right about the fact that poetry had far more social power in the > >> 19th than the 20th or 21st century. But your second statement about The > >> National Review attempting to re-institute slavery says more about how > >> bizarrely skewed your worldview is than about that rather tame--if somewhat > >> right of center--journal. > >> > >> --- > >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > As a book seller, you're free to post whatever you want in your window, of > course. But using names like "Gunga" Dinesh smacks of racism. Can't you just > say you disagree with someone's policies or political ideas without > ascribing racist, evil motives? Just because many residents of D. C. don't > subscribe to the politics of the National Review doesn't make the magazine > racist--unless one uses today's rather dishonest and elastic definition of > racism as, for instance, taking a principled stand against racial > preferences. Despite your sophistry, your suggestion that because the > magazine is conservative it wants to bring back slavery is absurd. > > After all, you're a capitalist yourself, aren't you? You hope to make a > profit from the books you sell. The fact that you're a businessman doesn't > make you a capitalist racist exploiter of the poor and working class of D. > C. Feel free to disagree with the Republican administration whenever you > want. I do. But ease up a bit on the rhetoric. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake Mon Apr 26 13:32:01 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:32:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: weapons of math instruction In-Reply-To: <408D0E33.32246.22A759@localhost> Message-ID: on 4/26/04 12:27 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > Found Poem: Weapons of Math Instruction > > At New York's Kennedy airport > a man was arrested trying to board a flight > while in possession of > a ruler, a protractor, a compass, > and a calculator. > > Attorney General John Ashcroft > announced the man is a member of the notorious > al-gebra movement. > The man is being charged with possession of > weapons of math instruction. > > President George W. Bush said, > "Al-gebra is a fearsome cult. > Adherents derive average solutions by > means and extremes, > and seek absolute value following tangents. > They use secret code names such as > "x" and "y" and refer to them as "unknowns". > > "I am gratiful for this sine > that our brave customs have agents intent > on protracting us from these math-dogs > who are willing to disintegrate us with > calculus disregard. Al-gebra would like to inflict > plane on every sphere of influence. > Under the circumferences, > we must differentiate their root, > make our point, and draw the line. > > "These weapons of math instruction > have the potential to decimal everything in their math > on a scalene never before seen > unless we become exponents of a Higher Power > and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex." > > "As Forty One said, 'Read my ellipse!' > Though these asymptotes continue to multiply, > their days are numbered > as the hypotenus > tightens around their necks." > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > My fourteen your old son who is struggling with that Middle Eastern intellectual virus known as algebra would agree. He's fighting off summer school even as I type this. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From kpaul Mon Apr 26 13:46:46 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:46:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: weapons of math instruction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040426124625.R50677@kpaul.spinweb.net> where did this originate. i saw someone on a forum a few months back try to pass it off as their own... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 26 Apr 2004, Paul Lake wrote: > on 4/26/04 12:27 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > > > Found Poem: Weapons of Math Instruction > > > > At New York's Kennedy airport > > a man was arrested trying to board a flight > > while in possession of > > a ruler, a protractor, a compass, > > and a calculator. > > > > Attorney General John Ashcroft > > announced the man is a member of the notorious > > al-gebra movement. > > The man is being charged with possession of > > weapons of math instruction. > > > > President George W. Bush said, > > "Al-gebra is a fearsome cult. > > Adherents derive average solutions by > > means and extremes, > > and seek absolute value following tangents. > > They use secret code names such as > > "x" and "y" and refer to them as "unknowns". > > > > "I am gratiful for this sine > > that our brave customs have agents intent > > on protracting us from these math-dogs > > who are willing to disintegrate us with > > calculus disregard. Al-gebra would like to inflict > > plane on every sphere of influence. > > Under the circumferences, > > we must differentiate their root, > > make our point, and draw the line. > > > > "These weapons of math instruction > > have the potential to decimal everything in their math > > on a scalene never before seen > > unless we become exponents of a Higher Power > > and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex." > > > > "As Forty One said, 'Read my ellipse!' > > Though these asymptotes continue to multiply, > > their days are numbered > > as the hypotenus > > tightens around their necks." > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > My fourteen your old son who is struggling with that Middle Eastern > intellectual virus known as algebra would agree. He's fighting off summer > school even as I type this. > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake Mon Apr 26 13:38:29 2004 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:38:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power In-Reply-To: <408D439A.B10960C5@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: on 4/26/04 12:15 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > Five) The people at the National Review stooge for powerful forces that are > already > in place and that have oppression as part of their agenda. Its that obvious > truth > that people of color are responding to because unlike you they are a target. > Your > response speaks for itself. CP Sounds like a vast secret conspiracy. Where are the position papers of these mysterious "powerful forces" that "have oppression as part of their agenda"? Do they really want to re-institute slavery--or only segregation and Jim Crow? Where can I read their secret manifestoes? I'm obviously out of the loop. Or maybe someone forgot to send me the memo. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From alphavil Mon Apr 26 13:29:43 2004 From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:29:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power References: Message-ID: <408D4707.39066D3D@ix.netcom.com> You're not a big enough stooge yet to receive the memo. But I have confidence in you. CP Paul Lake wrote: > on 4/26/04 12:15 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > Five) The people at the National Review stooge for powerful forces that are > > already > > in place and that have oppression as part of their agenda. Its that obvious > > truth > > that people of color are responding to because unlike you they are a target. > > Your > > response speaks for itself. CP > > Sounds like a vast secret conspiracy. Where are the position papers of > these mysterious "powerful forces" that "have oppression as part of their > agenda"? Do they really want to re-institute slavery--or only segregation > and Jim Crow? Where can I read their secret manifestoes? I'm obviously out > of the loop. Or maybe someone forgot to send me the memo. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus Mon Apr 26 14:03:21 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:03:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: weapons of math instruction In-Reply-To: <20040426124625.R50677@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: Message-ID: <408D16A9.18495.43B55C@localhost> > > on 4/26/04 12:27 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > > > Found Poem: Weapons of Math Instruction > > > > > > At New York's Kennedy airport > > > a man was arrested trying to board a flight > > > while in possession of > > > a ruler, a protractor, a compass, > > > and a calculator. > > > > > > Attorney General John Ashcroft > > > announced the man is a member of the notorious > > > al-gebra movement. > > > The man is being charged with possession of > > > weapons of math instruction. On 26 Apr 2004 at 12:46, kpaul mallasch wrote: > where did this originate. i saw someone on a forum a few months > back try to pass it off as their own... It's been around the internet for at least 4 years that I know of, in a multiplicity of forms which have all been, until now, prose. I've edited, revised, and re-titled it, and now it's Poetry! Woo hoo! Marcus From jnewberry1974 Mon Apr 26 14:05:40 2004 From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's power In-Reply-To: <408D439A.B10960C5@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20040426180540.23909.qmail@web11603.mail.yahoo.com> Typical, typical, typical. Ad hominems and curse words--what is this, Def Comedy Jam? I'm always amazed by this kind of stuff. Attack anyone whose conservative, and you're in the morally superior position, no questions asked. Attack the left, and you're a white supremacist power-hungry capitalist swine/pig fill-in-the-blank-with-your-own-pet-peeve-personal-insult. Jeff Newberry --- "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > One. I didn't relate Capitalist to racist. You did. > Besides that's such a weak and > disingenuous canard on your part. Its true > capitalism is such a simply minded hustle > wrapped in a series of dishonest and unethical acts > that I'm always surprised that > so many people have to take their capitalist > criminality to such extreme and > murderous levels like the National Review vis a vis > U.S. policy toward (fill in the > blank.). > > Two) A person of considerable power threatened my > livelihood and the well being of > my family BECAUSE she felt she was in a postiion to > do so. To play the bully as is > her and her husband's custom. They are used to > having people bend to their will and > kiss their ass.. > > Three) That was the game played up there near my > store. The minorities and > immigrants who worked in the stores were called > lazy, stupid, ignorant and > constantly demeaned by the mostly white clientele in > the area. I engaged in many > fights and arguments with whitey up there including > shoving the manager of a local > bank who formed a gang of wealthy white vigilanties > who went around discarding > homeless peoples' property to force them out of the > neighborhood. I still see red > thinking about it. > > Four) The racism of the Gunga Dinesh remark was > deliberate and I must say well > earned by the little fucker because he shows no > regard for people who are > essentially powerless in exchange for crumbs from > Krauthammer's table. In short he's > a whore or as John McLaughlin once said "Whore? > We're all whores! But I'm the whore > with the TV show." > > Five) The people at the National Review stooge for > powerful forces that are already > in place and that have oppression as part of their > agenda. Its that obvious truth > that people of color are responding to because > unlike you they are a target. Your > response speaks for itself. CP > > Paul Lake wrote: > > > on 4/26/04 11:08 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at > alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > > Oh, Really Paul. My point of view is skewed. The > National Review which is a > > > base > > > for the racist blitherings of Gunga Dinesh and > others. > > > > > > I threw Mrs. Krauthammer's sorry, stinkin' ass > out of my store because she > > > threatened to destroy my business after I posted > in the window of my bookstore > > > where I paid rent something critical of the twit > whose carried so much water > > > for > > > whitey--- towit Dinesh D'Souza. Now. that's a > devotion to free speech. > > > > > > Come here to Chocolate City and we'll do a > survey on how the National Review > > > and > > > its ilk is viewed outside of Chevy Chase and Fox > Hall. And don't get me > > > started > > > about what a bunch of phony intellectuals these > National Review morons are > > > from my > > > bird's eye view as a book seller. All phonies > seeking economic advantage and > > > they > > > don't give a shit who they fuck over to get it. > CP > > > > > > > > > Paul Lake wrote: > > > > > >> on 4/26/04 9:44 AM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli at > alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > >> > > >>> Well the subtitle is apt: "WHEN poetry HAD > power." > > >>> > > >>> Of course, the National Review is doing its > part to reintroduce the > > >>> "peculiar > > >>> institution." CP > > >> > > >> You're right about the fact that poetry had far > more social power in the > > >> 19th than the 20th or 21st century. But your > second statement about The > > >> National Review attempting to re-institute > slavery says more about how > > >> bizarrely skewed your worldview is than about > that rather tame--if somewhat > > >> right of center--journal. > > >> > > >> --- > > >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude > Virus] > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > --- > > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude > Virus] > > > > > > > > As a book seller, you're free to post whatever you > want in your window, of > > course. But using names like "Gunga" Dinesh smacks > of racism. Can't you just > > say you disagree with someone's policies or > political ideas without > > ascribing racist, evil motives? Just because many > residents of D. C. don't > > subscribe to the politics of the National Review > doesn't make the magazine > > racist--unless one uses today's rather dishonest > and elastic definition of > > racism as, for instance, taking a principled stand > against racial > > preferences. Despite your sophistry, your > suggestion that because the > > magazine is conservative it wants to bring back > slavery is absurd. > > > > After all, you're a capitalist yourself, aren't > you? You hope to make a > > profit from the books you sell. The fact that > you're a businessman doesn't > > make you a capitalist racist exploiter of the poor > and working class of D. > > C. Feel free to disagree with the Republican > administration whenever you > > want. I do. But ease up a bit on the rhetoric. > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash From kpaul Mon Apr 26 14:08:53 2004 From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:08:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: weapons of math instruction In-Reply-To: <408D16A9.18495.43B55C@localhost> References: <408D16A9.18495.43B55C@localhost> Message-ID: <20040426130831.L50677@kpaul.spinweb.net> Great, now I'm sure an argument will start up as to whether or not it *is* poetry ;) best, kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 26 Apr 2004, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > on 4/26/04 12:27 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > > > > Found Poem: Weapons of Math Instruction > > > > > > > > At New York's Kennedy airport > > > > a man was arrested trying to board a flight > > > > while in possession of > > > > a ruler, a protractor, a compass, > > > > and a calculator. > > > > > > > > Attorney General John Ashcroft > > > > announced the man is a member of the notorious > > > > al-gebra movement. > > > > The man is being charged with possession of > > > > weapons of math instruction. > > On 26 Apr 2004 at 12:46, kpaul mallasch wrote: > > where did this originate. i saw someone on a forum a few months > > back try to pass it off as their own... > > It's been around the internet for at least 4 years that I know of, in > a multiplicity of forms which have all been, until now, prose. I've > edited, revised, and re-titled it, and now it's Poetry! Woo hoo! > > Marcus > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus Mon Apr 26 14:15:22 2004 From: marcus (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:15:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: weapons of math instruction In-Reply-To: <20040426130831.L50677@kpaul.spinweb.net> References: <408D16A9.18495.43B55C@localhost> Message-ID: <408D197A.30243.4EB3CC@localhost> > > > > on 4/26/04 12:27 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > Found Poem: Weapons of Math Instruction > > > > > > > > > > At New York's Kennedy airport > > > > > a man was arrested trying to board a flight > > > > > while in possession of > > > > > a ruler, a protractor, a compass, > > > > > and a calculator. > > > > > > > > > > Attorney General John Ashcroft > > > > > announced the man is a member of the notorious > > > > > al-gebra movement. > > > > > The man is being charged with possession of > > > > > weapons of math instruction. > > > > On 26 Apr 2004 at 12:46, kpaul mallasch wrote: > > > where did this originate. i saw someone on a forum a few months > > > back try to pass it off as their own... > > > > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004, Marcus Bales wrote: > > It's been around the internet for at least 4 years that I know of, > > in a multiplicity of forms which have all been, until now